# Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!



## drdel (Jul 4, 2018)

Still a lot to discuss / argue over?

Have at it...


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## bluewolf (Jul 4, 2018)

No. 

I'm out.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 4, 2018)

Can I start an argument about why this is in The Lounge rather than Out of Bounds?


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## JamesR (Jul 4, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can I start an argument about why this is in The Lounge rather than Out of Bounds? 

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Itâ€™s currently IN the lounge, now we must vote whether to LEAVE and move to OOB.


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## DaveR (Jul 4, 2018)

JamesR said:



			Itâ€™s currently IN the lounge, now we must vote whether to LEAVE and move to OOB.
		
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I'm not in favour of all the bureaucracy in the lounge, vote out!


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 4, 2018)

JamesR said:



			Itâ€™s currently IN the lounge, now we must vote whether to LEAVE and move to OOB.
		
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If the vote is 52% in favour of leaving and moving to OOB and 48% in favour of remaining in The Lounge do we then have to have long drawn out discussions about how the thread should leave the Lounge and whether those that voted for it to leave actually knew what they were voting for? Or maybe some parts of the thread could remain within the Lounge or possibly be governed by the rules of the Lounge all the while pretending that it has actually moved to OOB.


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## JamesR (Jul 4, 2018)

I knew what I had in the lounge, the oob section is too much of the unknown for me.
I vote to remain & try to improve things from within.


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## IanM (Jul 4, 2018)

JamesR said:



			I vote to remain & try to improve things from within.
		
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Nice sentiments, but weâ€™ve failed miserably for 40 years........letâ€™s move House of Commons to Bristol once a year for no reason


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## JamesR (Jul 4, 2018)

IanM said:



			Nice sentiments, but weâ€™ve failed miserably for 40 years........letâ€™s move House of Commons to Bristol once a year for no reason 

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I didnâ€™t realise that when people talk about Out of bounds they are referring to Bristol, Iâ€™ve always enjoyed my visits there!


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## bobmac (Jul 5, 2018)

There's a nice hhigh cliff edge in Bristol


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## Hobbit (Jul 5, 2018)

JamesR said:



			I knew what I had in the lounge, the oob section is too much of the unknown for me.
I vote to remain & try to improve things from within.
		
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Should the Lounge be renamed "The Departure Lounge...?"


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 5, 2018)

What happens if English and Welsh posters want OOB and Scotland, United Irish and European posters want The Lounge. ?


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## virtuocity (Jul 5, 2018)

Mmmm gammon.


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## JamesR (Jul 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What happens if English and Welsh posters want OOB and Scotland, United Irish and European posters want The Lounge. ?
		
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LEXIT (Lounge Exit) means LEXIT, don't go muddying waters and trying to undo the will of the forumites, you're just playing into the hands of the Lounge's negotiating team :angry:


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## Hobbit (Jul 5, 2018)

virtuocity said:



			Mmmm gammon.
		
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With eggs on top...


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## JamesR (Jul 5, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			With eggs on top...
		
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Pineapple?


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## DaveR (Jul 5, 2018)

virtuocity said:



			Mmmm gammon.
		
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Gammon is just a posh slice of bacon that is up it's own backside.


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## Old Skier (Jul 5, 2018)

JamesR said:



			Pineapple?
		
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So 70's


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## bobmac (Jul 5, 2018)

This isn't right, where's all the doom and gloom?


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## Old Skier (Jul 5, 2018)

bobmac said:



			This isn't right, where's all the doom and gloom?
		
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Be positive no more pastry and coffee for breakfast and back to fry ups.


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## JamesR (Jul 5, 2018)

bobmac said:



			This isn't right, where's all the doom and gloom?
		
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Heâ€™ll be on later


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2018)

Where has the Art50 thread gone?


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## JamesR (Jul 5, 2018)

Told you!


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## bobmac (Jul 5, 2018)

JamesR said:



			Told you!
		
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It's a prophecy :thup:


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## JamesR (Jul 5, 2018)

bobmac said:



			It's a prophecy :thup:
		
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Yet no one believes me when I tell them that Brexit (and Lexit for that matter) will be disasters :smirk:


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## Hobbit (Jul 5, 2018)

JamesR said:



			Yet no one believes me when I tell them that Brexit (and Lexit for that matter) will be disasters :smirk:
		
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But weâ€™re at our best when confronting a disaster.... now, where is the wife....?


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## JamesR (Jul 5, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			But weâ€™re at our best when confronting a disaster.... now, where is the wife....?
		
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Watching the news last night made me realise that we are going to either be a much healthier nation, or a lot more unhealthy.

Apparently fishing is what Brexit was really all about, we'll soon be able to catch British fish and leave jonny foreigner to catch european fish (I don't know if we'll be allowed to catch any of them - I'm sure David Davis will negotiate that expertly).

So, if we catch more fish, we'll have more available to sell. But most of our fish is sold to the continent, so what happens when that fish is too expensive (due to tariffs), or it goes off whilst stuck in 100 mile long queues at the borders?

We'll have to eat it then!
So we'll either be fitter & healthier as we'll have to start eating more fish. Or more unhealthy due to the extra batter we'll be eating!


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## IanM (Jul 5, 2018)

If only we were allowed to also impose tariffs on imports.... then the EU would be keen to find a balance for all the stuff they sell us.

....oh we are, but you'd never know from seeing the coverage


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2018)

I hear there is an appeal underway on whether England is actually through to the next round as penalty shoot outs are only advisory


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I hear there is an appeal underway on whether England is actually through to the next round as penalty shoot outs are only advisory
		
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Except that that is not true whilst it is a legal FACT that - whatever was said - the EU Referendum Act was *deliberately *drafted to make the result only advisory.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2018)

And D-Day for May arrives - whether that is _Denouement-Day_ and _Deal-Day _who knows.  

One way or another it is _Put Up or Shut Up Day_ of the likes of Johnson, Davis, Leadsom, Fox and the various 'rebels' (funny how it is now the Hard Brexiteers who are being referred to in some quarters as the 'rebels')


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And D-Day for May arrives - whether that is _Denouement-Day_ and _Deal-Day _who knows.  

One way or another it is _Put Up or Shut Up Day_ of the likes of Johnson, Davis, Leadsom, Fox and the various 'rebels' (funny how it is now the Hard Brexiteers who are being referred to in some quarters as the 'rebels')
		
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I think it will probably be the end of May as PM. If she attempts to push through a fudge there could be a vote of no confidence in her and she would not survive it.


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## jp5 (Jul 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I think it will probably be the end of May as PM.
		
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That's been thought many a time over the last 24 months! In any usual time, probably it would be, but I can't see that anyone else would want to take over now. 

As far as any contenders are concerned, they probably think it's best for May to own this mess and swoop in after a deal / no deal is done.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I think it will probably be the end of May as PM. If she attempts to push through a fudge there could be a vote of no confidence in her and she would not survive it.
		
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BTW - what happened to that plan that 2yrs ago you and others were adamant in telling us all that the government had for the negotiations, but that we could not be told about as telling us would undermine the negotiations.

Is it possible that there never was a plan - that there might have been aspirational objectives al la the Lancaster House speech - but in fact there has never been a plan.  

But I suspect that we will never hear an admission that we were duped into thinking that there was a plan when in fact nothing of the sort ever existed.  And the evidence for the lack of a plan?  Well - look at the mess the negotiations and the government is in - and look at today's meeting...

What a shower - what a shambles.

Brexit means Brexit?  What a vacuous and meaningless catch phrase as that is all it is.

They need us more than we need them?  Well maybe some thought this at the outset - but given where we are today do we still think that..?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BTW - what happened to that plan that 2yrs ago you and others were adamant in telling us all that the government had for the negotiations, but that we could not be told about as telling us would undermine the negotiations.

Is it possible that there never was a plan - that there might have been aspirational objectives al la the Lancaster House speech - but in fact there has never been a plan.  

But I suspect that we will never hear an admission that we were duped into thinking that there was a plan when in fact nothing of the sort ever existed.  And the evidence for the lack of a plan?  Well - look at the mess the negotiations and the government is in - and look at today's meeting...

What a shower - what a shambles.

Brexit means Brexit?  What a vacuous and meaningless catch phrase as that is all it is.

They need us more than we need them?  Well maybe some thought this at the outset - but given where we are today do we still think that..?
		
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The plan was simple, leave the EU. The only thing that is frustrating it is people like you who have been acting like spoiled children who never got their own way.


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## jp5 (Jul 6, 2018)

A plan so simple it is yet to transpire over two years after the vote?!


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## bluewolf (Jul 6, 2018)

jp5 said:



			A plan so simple it is yet to transpire over two years after the vote?!
		
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Yup. All us Remoaners keep getting in the way apparently. Such a delicate little flower of a plan. Simple, but delicate. Like spun sugar.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The plan was simple, leave the EU. The only thing that is frustrating it is people like you who have been acting like spoiled children who never got their own way.
		
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That is not a plan - that s an objective.

And meanwhile the children in the cabinet pram are throwing their teddies out of their pram.

It is actually funny that you continue to pretend that it is those who voted to Remain are moaning and throwing our teddies out of the plan when in fact it is Leave voters who are doing just that.  

Many who voted Remain simply continue to point out our concerns over the issues, problems and warnings that arise daily - and over the duplicity and the self-serving fundamentalist mindset of many prominent anti-EU leave supporters - a mindset that would see the UK out of the EU regardless of the damage to the economy and social fabric that might well result and that will affect the poorest of society whilst satisfying the comfortable smug wishes of a well-off few.


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## bobmac (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is it possible that there never was a plan - that there might have been aspirational objectives al la the Lancaster House speech - *but in fact there has never been a plan. * 

But I suspect that we will never hear an admission that we were duped into thinking that there was a plan *when in fact nothing of the sort ever existed*.  *And the evidence for the lack of a plan?  Well - look at the mess the negotiations and the government is in - and look at today's meeting...

*

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Your opinion of how the negotiations are going is not evidence that proves a fact.

Please don't do it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Your opinion of how the negotiations are going is not evidence that proves a fact.

Please don't do it
		
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I'd do just exactly what I want having been the recipient of all sorts of scorn and vitriol over the last two years on this.

But OK - all is well.  All is tickety-boo.  Today's meeting at Chequers is to rubber stamp the plan that has been in place and followed for the last 2 years

One day someone will admit that there never was a plan.  Clearly those here are not ready to make that admission - rather deflection and counter charge remains the order of the day.


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## DaveR (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That is not a plan - that s an objective.

And meanwhile the children in the cabinet pram are throwing their teddies out of their pram.

It is actually funny that you continue to pretend that it is those who voted to Remain are moaning and throwing our teddies out of the plan when in fact it is Leave voters who are doing just that.  

Many who voted Remain simply continue to point out our concerns over the issues, problems and warnings that arise daily - and over the duplicity and the self-serving fundamentalist mindset of many prominent anti-EU leave supporters - a mindset that would see the UK out of the EU regardless of the damage to the economy and social fabric that might well result and that will affect the poorest of society whilst satisfying the comfortable smug wishes of a well-off few.
		
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Have you ever considered that those who voted to leave weren't actually voting for a plan as such but just wanted out of the EU?

We are big boys, quite capable of standing on our own 2 feet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2018)

DaveR said:



			Have you ever considered that those who voted to leave weren't actually voting for a plan as such but just wanted out of the EU?

We are big boys, quite capable of standing on our own 2 feet.
		
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We were told there was a plan to leave ...I was repeatedly told here that there was a plan to leave and that I shouldn't be so naive to expect to be told of that plan.

And no matter how big you think that we are we are in a mess.

And I am afraid that you seem to forget that well over 16 million people did *not* want to Leave, and that our wishes and concerns should be recognised.  

It isn't all about Leave voters as much as they like to think that it is - and it simply *cannot *be all about the wishes of Leave voters if there is to be any chance of reconciliation across the electorate on this in the future.  

Some commentators expect this to run for many, many years in the way that the Irish independence question consumed governments of all hues from the early 19th Century until the 1920s.


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## bobmac (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'd do just exactly what I want having been the recipient of all sorts of scorn and vitriol over the last two years on this.

But OK - all is well.  All is tickety-boo.  Today's meeting at Chequers is to rubber stamp the plan that has been in place and followed for the last 2 years

One day someone will admit that there never was a plan.  Clearly those here are not ready to make that admission - rather deflection and counter charge remains the order of the day.
		
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Very well. Continue stating your opinion as fact, your call.


Fact.....

A thing that is known or proved to be true.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Very well. Continue stating your opinion as fact, your call.


Fact.....

A thing that is known or proved to be true.
		
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So you still believe that it is a FACT that there has always been a plan for Brexit and that the government has been following it assiduously.  Got any evidence of that?


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## Hobbit (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We were told there was a plan to leave ...I was repeatedly told here that there was a plan to leave and that I shouldn't be so naive to expect to be told of that plan.

And no matter how big you think that we are we are in a mess.

And I am afraid that you seem to forget that well over 16 million people did *not* want to Leave, and that our wishes and concerns should be recognised.  

It isn't all about Leave voters as much as they like to think that it is - and it simply *cannot *be all about the wishes of Leave voters if there is to be any chance of reconciliation across the electorate on this in the future.  

Some commentators expect this to run for many, many years in the way that the Irish independence question consumed governments of all hues from the early 19th Century until the 1920s.
		
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There was a plan, and the EU didn't accept it. They were offered another plan, and they didn't accept that. We're onto plan x,y,z, and you are naive if you don't think plans change, become hardened or moderated. C'mon Hugh, you're Project Manager. You know that you start of with a concept, develop a plan, offer the plan, accept that the customer wants it changing/amending. Find that elements of the plan aren't feasible, or that circumstances change, and the plan does to match it. What complicated plan have you ever had that is the same on delivery day as it was at first concept.


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## hors limite (Jul 6, 2018)

There is something very odd going on. I don't know if it's the Trump influence where you keep on repeating the same false assertion until the gullible swallow it. Yesterday, Owen Paterson MP a prominent Brexiteer was at it. His response to the concerns Chief Exec of Jaguar L/R was to completely ignore them and to insist that the company would be better off after Brexit.I can't be persuaded that Paterson knows better than Jaguar, Airbus, BMW and all the rest. It can't be " Project Fear". They all say that we need frictionless trade and full access to the single market. It's well past the time when May must spell out how this can be achieved.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 6, 2018)

Any chance GM could get another GDPR request.......


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We were told there was a plan to leave ...I was repeatedly told here that there was a plan to leave and that I shouldn't be so naive to expect to be told of that plan.

And no matter how big you think that we are we are in a mess.

*And I am afraid that you seem to forget that well over 16 million people did not want to Leave, and that our wishes and concerns should be recognised.  
*
It isn't all about Leave voters as much as they like to think that it is - and it simply *cannot *be all about the wishes of Leave voters if there is to be any chance of reconciliation across the electorate on this in the future.  

Some commentators expect this to run for many, many years in the way that the Irish independence question consumed governments of all hues from the early 19th Century until the 1920s.
		
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Do you understand the concept of a referendum?


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## PieMan (Jul 6, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Do you understand the concept of a referendum?
		
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Ah, but you have clearly forgotten that the Referendum was only advisory............and well over 16 million people advised the Government that the UK should remain. 

Of course the fact that 17 million people advised the Government that the UK should leave doesn't matter - the 16 million are right...........because the 17 million were either old and senile and therefore didn't know what they were doing; or right-wing facists; or uneducated and thick.

And don't forget that it also rained in biblical proportions on Referendum Day, which kept a significant number of remain voters indoors!!

With sincere apologies to Pete Townshend "Meet the new thread; same as the old thread"!!!


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## Dando (Jul 6, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Ah, but you have clearly forgotten that the Referendum was only advisory............and well over 16 million people advised the Government that the UK should remain. 

Of course the fact that 17 million people advised the Government that the UK should leave doesn't matter - the 16 million are right...........because the 17 million were either old and senile and therefore didn't know what they were doing; or right-wing facists; or uneducated and thick.

And don't forget that it also rained in biblical proportions on Referendum Day, which kept a significant number of remain voters indoors!!

With sincere apologies to Pete Townshend "Meet the new thread; same as the old thread"!!!
		
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you forgot about those who didn't vote as they were clearly happy with the way things were and so should be added to the remainers total. 

next he'll want the remainers pets added to total


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## PieMan (Jul 6, 2018)

Dando said:



			next he'll want the remainers pets added to total
		
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Only those old enough to vote of course!! So probably a fair few tortoises!!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 6, 2018)

PieMan said:



			With sincere apologies to Pete Townshend "Meet the new thread; same as the old thread"!!!
		
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Well let's hope we don't get fooled again


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2018)

PieMan said:



			...
With sincere apologies to Pete Townshend "Meet the new thread; same as the old thread"!!!
		
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Consistency then!

Btw! Townshend's lyrics also seem pretty appropriate to Brexit imo!


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## bobmac (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*So you still believe that it is a FACT* that there has always been a plan for Brexit and that the government has been following it assiduously.  Got any evidence of that?
		
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Please tell me where I said that?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2018)

Let be honest with ourselves 

It was also going to be a long and complex process for the UK to leave the EU and ensure that we donâ€™t screw ourselves over and make sure that we get the best deal possible 

Itâ€™s not harming anyone by taking their time - I donâ€™t recall any specific timetable so Iâ€™m pretty sure itâ€™s best for us all to make sure itâ€™s done properly as opposed to quickly. 

As long as whatever happens is in our best interest then I donâ€™t care if they have to take their time doing it


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BTW - what happened to that plan that 2yrs ago you and others were adamant in telling us all that the government had for the negotiations, but that we could not be told about as telling us would undermine the negotiations.

Is it possible that there never was a plan - that there might have been aspirational objectives al la the Lancaster House speech - but in fact there has never been a plan.  

But I suspect that we will never hear an admission that we were duped into thinking that there was a plan when in fact nothing of the sort ever existed.  And the evidence for the lack of a plan?  Well - look at the mess the negotiations and the government is in - and look at today's meeting...

What a shower - what a shambles.

Brexit means Brexit?  What a vacuous and meaningless catch phrase as that is all it is.

They need us more than we need them?  Well maybe some thought this at the outset - but given where we are today do we still think that..?
		
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I tend to remember it being you that became rabid suggesting we need a plan and that the Pm hadn't sent you a personal copy of one. My preferred plan was always the same; Leave the EU, single market, customs union, stop free movement and adopt a points based immigration system, no more influence from the ECJ,  try and agree a free trade agreement but if the EU play hard then walk from it and adopt WTO rules which would be better for us.

That was my plan and a bold honest one.


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## Hobbit (Jul 6, 2018)

Dando said:



			you forgot about those who didn't vote as they were clearly happy with the way things were and so should be added to the remainers total. 

next he'll want the remainers pets added to total
		
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Ah, but the intelligent people say that the minority won the vote because the population is 66 million, and only 17.4million voted Leave.

i guess that means the UK has had seriously minority governments since God knows when....wonder if it was Alister Campbell who came up with that level spin, or maybe someone closer to home


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## IanM (Jul 6, 2018)

_*Brexit means Brexit? What a vacuous and meaningless catch phrase as that is all it is.*_

 - well Cameron spent Â£9million on a really clear definition.   It was only after the loss, excuse 733/12 came out 

_* They need us more than we need them? Well maybe some thought this at the outset - but given where we are today do we still think that..?*_

Yes.  Evidenced by the massive effort being made by them to block it. (of course you will not know what these are!


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## Jasonr (Jul 6, 2018)

Remain = Get shafted by EU greedy politicians, big business and the banks
Leave = Get shafted by UK greedy politicians, big business and the banks

Heads they win, tails you lose it is, was and ever will be thus.

Arsenal vs Tottenham football vs rugby, old vs young rich vs poor right wing vs left wing, republic vs democrat, capitalism vs socialism, good vs bad, light vs dark ying vs yang.....

We fall for it every friggin time take a side and then finger point and snipe and tell each other how stupid the other side is instead of where it really should be directed  - why and who has caused it all to fall out of bed so badly, who gains what and who wins what we already know who will lose (that's us the proles by the way).

Democracy is an illusion of choice we effectively get to choose between a red chair, a blue chair, a yellow chair, a green chair or a purple chair. No one ever questions why are we being asked to choose a chair and sit down.


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## IanM (Jul 6, 2018)

Jasonr said:



			Remain = Get shafted by EU greedy politicians, big business and the banks
Leave = Get shafted by UK greedy politicians, big business and the banks

Heads they win, tails you lose it is, was and ever will be thus.

Arsenal vs Tottenham football vs rugby, old vs young rich vs poor right wing vs left wing, republic vs democrat, capitalism vs socialism, good vs bad, light vs dark ying vs yang.....

We fall for it every friggin time take a side and then finger point and snipe and tell each other how stupid the other side is instead of where it really should be directed  - why and who has caused it all to fall out of bed so badly, who gains what and who wins what we already know who will lose (that's us the proles by the way).

Democracy is an illusion of choice we effectively get to choose between a red chair, a blue chair, a yellow chair, a green chair or a purple chair. No one ever questions why are we being asked to choose a chair and sit down.
		
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Hard to argue with that..........when I went to Uni doing Politics, my (engineer) dad laughed and said "they are all no bleedin good!"  Easy degree son!  I hoped he was joking


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## Imurg (Jul 6, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Well let's hope we don't get fooled again  

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You better you bet....:clap:


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## USER1999 (Jul 6, 2018)

Imurg said:



			You better you bet....:clap:
		
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How many friends ( have I really got?).


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## bobmac (Jul 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*So you still believe that it is a FACT* that there has always been a plan for Brexit and that the government has been following it assiduously.  Got any evidence of that?
		
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bobmac said:



			Please tell me where I said that?
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



..............

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I thought not.
I don't need to give evidence for something I did not say.
You claimed as fact there was no plan so you have the burden of proof.


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## drdel (Jul 6, 2018)

Barnier's speech this afternoon has rejected May's Chequers Plan still under discussion and to be 'agreed' by Cabinet - This is before its written and/or published!!

Barnier's stance is to reject anything and everything - I don't know why we bother trying to negotiate as he simply refuses to accept the UK is leaving.  This stance was predicted by the ex-Greek finance minister in his book and I'm beginning to think he was spot on.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 6, 2018)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44747444

he cabinet has reached a "collective" agreement on the basis of the UK's future relationship with the EU after Brexit, Theresa May has said.

Ministers have signed up to a plan to create a free trade area for industrial and agricultural goods with the bloc, based on a "common rule book".
They also backed a customs model No 10 said would be "business friendly".

The BBC's Laura Kuenssberg said the plan, agreed after a 12-hour meeting, would "anger many Tory Brexiteers".
Our political editor said No 10 hoped the new commitments would unlock the next phase of talks with the rest of the EU but it was not year clear how many, or what kind, of objections were raised.

Downing Street said the proposals marked a "substantial evolution" in the UK's position and would resolve outstanding concerns about the future of the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

"This is a proposal that I believe will be good for the UK and good for the EU, and I look forward to it being received positively," Mrs May told the BBC.

The UK said it now wanted to accelerate the negotiations in an effort to secure an agreement by October, but also warned it will step up preparations for leaving on 29 March 2019 without a deal.
The EU's negotiator Michel Barnier has suggested the EU would be willing to shift its position if the UK relaxed some of its "red lines", but has warned anything that "damaged" the single market would not be acceptable.

The prime minister had gathered her 26 cabinet ministers together at her country residence to try and resolve differences over the shape of the UK's relations with the EU and break the current deadlock with the EU.

The main details of the "Chequers statement" are as follows:
The UK would accept continuing "harmonisation" with EU rules on the trade in goods, covering only those necessary to ensure frictionless trade

Parliament would have the final say over how these rules are incorporated into UK law, retaining the right to refuse to do so

There will be different arrangements for trade in services, including financial products, with greater "regulatory flexibility" and "strong reciprocal arrangements"

Freedom of movement as it stands will come to an end but a "mobility framework" will ensure UK and EU citizens can continue to travel to each other's territories and apply for study and work

A new customs arrangement will be phased in, with the goal of "a combined customs territory"

The UK will be able to control its own tariffs and develop an independent trade policy
The jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice will end but the UK will pay regard to its decisions in areas where common rules were in force.

Mrs May said this was an "important step" in the process of negotiating the UK's smooth exit from the EU.

"Of course we still have work to do with the EU in ensuring that we get to that end point in October. But this is good we have come today, following our detailed discussions, to a positive future for the UK," she said.

She said the proposals, to be formally published in a white paper next week, would give the UK the freedom to strike trade deals with other countries while maintaining regulatory, environmental and consumer standards.

There is no mention in the document of either the single market or the customs union, which the UK has committed to leave after the end of a transition period in December 2020.

Under plans for a free trade zone, the UK would be committed legally to following EU law for a large part of the economy, including manufacturing and farming.

While Parliament would retain the right to diverge from EU regulations in these areas, the document makes clear that "choosing not to pass the relevant legislation would have consequences for market access, security co-operation or the frictionless border".

The document also commits the government to step up preparedness for a no-deal scenario, as one of a range of possible outcomes, "given the short period remaining before the necessary conclusion of negotiations".


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Very well. Continue stating your opinion as fact, your call.


Fact.....

A thing that is known or proved to be true.
		
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bobmac said:



			Please tell me where I said that?
		
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Perhaps YOU should also state where SILH actually stated that his OPINION was FACT

A bit of 'consistency' would not go amiss imo! 

Nor would the concept of 'play the argument, not the man'! (Again...imo!).


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## User62651 (Jul 7, 2018)

drdel said:



			Barnier's speech this afternoon *has rejected* May's Chequers Plan still under discussion and to be 'agreed' by Cabinet - This is before its written and/or published!!

Barnier's stance is to reject anything and everything - I don't know why we bother trying to negotiate as he simply refuses to accept the UK is leaving.  This stance was predicted by the ex-Greek finance minister in his book and I'm beginning to think he was spot on.
		
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Where did you read, see or hear that? Got a link?

Just that the main news media reporting him as saying various things and that he's keen to see the white paper with the detail but no mention of rejection as you claim. He is quoted below -

_"Time is short. We need to quickly have realistic and workable solutions and obviously we look forward to the UK's White Paper.

"The UK's proposals will facilitate both the UK's internal political debate and negotiation with us.

"Our objective has always been to find an agreement with the UK, not against the UK."

_


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## bobmac (Jul 7, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps YOU should also state where SILH actually stated that his OPINION was FACT

A bit of 'consistency' would not go amiss imo! 

Nor would the concept of 'play the argument, not the man'! (Again...imo!).
		
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Did you read post no.39?


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps YOU should also state where SILH actually stated that his OPINION was FACT

A bit of 'consistency' would not go amiss imo! 

Nor would the concept of 'play the argument, not the man'! (Again...imo!).
		
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Are you the referee or forum Police on the discussion between Hogie and Bobmac, or are you being your usual pedantic self...

BTW, Nice to see only two exclamation marks for a change, although it was a very short post. Keep it up...


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Did you read post no.39?
		
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I did indeed - and the 1st 3 words of each paragraph of SILH's post that you quoted are significant and, at least to me, indicate that neither was a 'statement of fact'!



Hobbit said:



			Are you the referee or forum Police on the discussion between Hogie and Bobmac, or are you being your usual pedantic self*...*

BTW, *Nice to see only two exclamation marks *for a change, although it was a very short post. Keep it up*...*

Click to expand...

You are hardly one to comment on punctuation! At least mine is grammatically correct. Why do you use 3 full-stops instead of the 'proper' mark?


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## bobmac (Jul 7, 2018)

Deary me.
I'm out


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			You are hardly one to comment on punctuation! At least mine is grammatically correct. Why do you use 3 full-stops instead of the 'proper' mark?
		
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Well, youâ€™ve now confirmed the obvious, youâ€™re thick.

3 full stops are called an ellipsis. Itâ€™s done to let the reader understand the contextual manner of the sentence, and for them to fill in the obvious gaps.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Im struggling to stop laughing at you... nice one Foxy.

Donâ€™t forget to wipe the egg off your face.


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Well, youâ€™ve now confirmed the obvious, youâ€™re thick.

3 full stops are called an ellipsis. Itâ€™s done to let the reader understand the contextual manner of the sentence, and for them to fill in the obvious gaps.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Im struggling to stop laughing at you... nice one Foxy.

Donâ€™t forget to wipe the egg off your face.
		
Click to expand...

Yep! I know what an ellipsis is/is/can be used for (and have used it many times), but you seem to have completed the sentence anyway (possibly minus a ? or !)! So what have you left off?

Please fill in the 'obvious gaps' then! I'd like to be able to truly read and understand ALL you intended posting!

Anyway...Back to Topic...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2018)

And so today we read Dan Hodges (strong Leaver) writing in the _Mail on Sunday _(hardly Remain supporting) - telling us how on Friday the kamikaze Brexiteers (his description) ran into a brick wall called Reality.  The reality that May laid out - that there is nowhere near a majority for a hard Brexit in parliament; that there is no way to circumvent the NI/EU border issues; that a no-deal Brexit will be disastrous for the UK economy - which the government's own analysis had UK facing a hit of 15% on the GDP. 

And the spineless kamikaze Brexiteers in the cabinet fold; principled stances chucked out of the Chequers window in self-serving self-preservation - that cannot hide behind the assertions of their acolytes that fighting May's proposals from the inside is better than from the outside, well they would say that wouldn't they.  Well as Hodges writes - the kamikaze Brexiteers demanded that May stands up strong against those who would undermine her negotiations - well she has done just that...perhaps they should have been more careful over what  they had wished for

And a 'May-supportive' MoS leader finishes with a reassurance that - well at least the UK is leaving the EU - the one thing that was on the ballot paper - quite.

Meanwhile whilst all this goes on, the first murmerings of a demand for a people's vote on the proposed deal are to be heard - and of course we know where that is coming from - yes - the constituency of the very angry and disaffected Leave voters.  The New Moaners demanding a people's vote and praying that the EU will reject May's proposals.  Oh the supreme irony.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Let be honest with ourselves 

It was also going to be a long and complex process for the UK to leave the EU and ensure that we donâ€™t screw ourselves over and make sure that we get the best deal possible 

Itâ€™s not harming anyone by taking their time - I donâ€™t recall any specific timetable so Iâ€™m pretty sure itâ€™s best for us all to make sure itâ€™s done properly as opposed to quickly. 

*As long as whatever happens is in our best interest then I donâ€™t care if they have to take their time doing it*

Click to expand...

Unfortunately this is not the view of many who voted to leave - they want out - out now - no transition - WTO rules - take the hit however long that might be and no matter how hard it is.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I tend to remember it being you that became rabid suggesting we need a plan and that the Pm hadn't sent you a personal copy of one. My preferred plan was always the same; Leave the EU, single market, customs union, stop free movement and adopt a points based immigration system, no more influence from the ECJ,  try and agree a free trade agreement but if the EU play hard then walk from it and adopt WTO rules which would be better for us.

That was my plan and a bold honest one.
		
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Pity the government did listen to you then...


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## Fade and Die (Jul 8, 2018)

As you know May is/was a remainer,as was 60% of the party( that baffled me if I'm honest)
Yet people seem to see it as a Tory Plan ...it's not..they are doing what a democratic vote has told themto do.

Whats happening now is no surprise to me ,we're a nation of whingers,a great country,but a fair share of moaners nonetheless.....and from what I see mainly on the Left of politics...
To be an MP sometimes you have to go along with things you don't totally agree with..........
Hence democracy...Argue,discuss...resolve...that's whats happening now,but the 
doom mongers/whingers like to call it just arguing and don't understand the process.
Personally I'm all for MPs of the same party disagreeing...
I'm a Tory but the day they all agree with each other is the day I'm gone.....
Vote together at the end by all means....but go thru the "Process"

I was ready for this crap as was May..there's a whole heap of people even MPs who want it to be a shambles,and call it a shambles even if it's not,purely because it's the Torys trying to implement
it.....what can you do .....

We are in a strong position the EU need us more than we need them IMO.....

France and Germany would both leave if there was a public vote,it's just a little group
of Euro MPs that are keeping it from falling apart.....it's a dated stupid interfering limitating body,
that needs to be scrapped.....and we're well out of it..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2018)

Andrew Marr: Is this what people voted for?

Michael Gove: Yes

Job's a good 'un then.  Over to the EU.


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## User62651 (Jul 8, 2018)

Gove is a skilled politician, very capable and arguably gets more done than any minister in whichever dept he heads up but he is also hungry to ascend and will use any means to get there. Seems like Brexiteers are quickly looking beyond Gove and Boris now as their man after Friday's soft brexit agreement/climbdown from both, didn't have the cahones to make a stand and walk. 
Jacob Rees Mogg has principles at least and I think that will stand him in good stead going forward with the Tory right. Expect him to be party leader within 5 years.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Gove is a skilled politician, very capable and arguably gets more done than any minister in whichever dept he heads up but he is also hungry to ascend and will use any means to get there. Seems like Brexiteers are quickly looking beyond Gove and Boris now as their man after Friday's soft brexit agreement/climbdown from both, didn't have the cahones to make a stand and walk. 
Jacob Rees Mogg has principles at least and I think that will stand him in good stead going forward with the Tory right. Expect him to be party leader within 5 years.
		
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Listen to Iain Dale (who has been a Tory candidate for Westminster and who is a staunch  but realistic Brexiteer and is oft on Newsnight) on LBC explain why Rees-Mogg will never be leader of the Tory party - well certainly not in the near or foreseeable future.  Some of his views are not acceptable to the majority of the Tory party - he just hides them behind a veneer of respectability created by a posh voice and fancy words.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Listen to Iain Dale (who has been a Tory candidate for Westminster and who is a staunch  but realistic Brexiteer and is oft on Newsnight) on LBC explain why Rees-Mogg will never be leader of the Tory party - well certainly not in the near or foreseeable future.  Some of his views are not acceptable to the majority of the Tory party - he just hides them behind a veneer of respectability created by a posh voice and fancy words.
		
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If Barnier kicks this proposal into the long grass then a no deal will be more likely than not.   Gird yourself for it and try not to self combust.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Andrew Marr: Is this what people voted for?

Michael Gove: Yes

Job's a good 'un then.  Over to the EU.
		
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Oops - maybe not such a good un for Davies.


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## hors limite (Jul 9, 2018)

I must admit to finding the whole thing perplexing in many different ways. Let's just take the last week or so. The Tories are the party of business and enterprise. Big business , Airbus and the rest, signal their concerns about frictionless trade for the umpteenth time. Boris comes out with his ridiculous "eff business". Davis publicly offers no reassurance and from Airbus's subsequent repeated anxiety not in private either. It makes me wonder if the significant change of direction at Chequers towards an explicitly softer Brexit was triggered by a loss of patience from major big business Tory donors.Did they get tired of wasting their breath on Davis and threaten May directly, who knows?
If our turd polishing Foreign Secretary steps out of line again maybe, at last, it will be the sack.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 9, 2018)

There's the thing government should be about the people not big business...
Unless, of course, big business wishes to pick up and pay the bill...
Which they've never shown interest in doing so...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I must admit to finding the whole thing perplexing in many different ways. Let's just take the last week or so. The Tories are the party of business and enterprise. Big business , Airbus and the rest, signal their concerns about frictionless trade for the umpteenth time. Boris comes out with his ridiculous "eff business". Davis publicly offers no reassurance and from Airbus's subsequent repeated anxiety not in private either. It makes me wonder if the significant change of direction at Chequers towards an explicitly softer Brexit was triggered by a loss of patience from major big business Tory donors.Did they get tired of wasting their breath on Davis and threaten May directly, who knows?
*If our turd polishing Foreign Secretary steps out of line again maybe, at last, it will be the sack.*

Click to expand...

And not surprisingly - May's prevarications rob her of the pleasure.

And meanwhile JR-M says he cannot really comment or decide on the proposals as he has not seen the detail.  

So Mr J-RM - how come the electorate were expected to make a 'binding' decision in the referendum vote, when we knew absolutely no detail whatsoever on what out might actually mean.  

We were asked to make a decision that you, dear Mr JR-M; your acolytes and various anti-EU ideologues, tell as cannot be changed - even though we knew no detail whatsoever on what _Out of the EU_ would mean in practical, rather than theoretical, terms.  And yet you expect us to believe that you have not decided on the proposals as you can't without the detail.  Yes.  You really do take the electorate as mugs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

The US Ambassador not quite so bullish on a bilateral deal

http://www.cityam.com/288941/us-ambassador-woody-johnson-warns-trade-deal-up-air-after

Just brilliant.  Trump hates the EU and wants us out so that he can bully us into a trade deal that Puts America First.  And as things are going we'll be going cap in hand to Trump and verily he will 'do' us.


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## IanM (Jul 9, 2018)

Go and read the current terms of trade between the US and the EU.  

Then laugh at your last posting.  I did!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

IanM said:



			Go and read the current terms of trade between the US and the EU.  

Then laugh at your last posting.  I did!
		
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Why laugh?  What's so funny...

OK - so nothing to worry about.  Well that's good to know.  Don;t know why the press and media are getting exercised.

There is much about Brexit that I could be ping myself laughing about were it not so serious.  I'm glad that you're so comfortable with how things are going and that any risk and concerns that some have of Trump doing one on us is a laughing matter.

Rather than a condescending laugh maybe you tell us all why it is a laughing matter - my researching it isn't going to help anyone else.


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## drdel (Jul 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And not surprisingly - May's prevarications rob her of the pleasure.

And meanwhile JR-M says he cannot really comment or decide on the proposals as he has not seen the detail.  

So Mr J-RM - how come the electorate were expected to make a 'binding' decision in the referendum vote, when we knew absolutely no detail whatsoever on what out might actually mean.  

We were asked to make a decision that you, *dear Mr JR-M; your acolytes and various anti-EU ideologues, tell as cannot be changed - even though we knew no detail whatsoever on what Out of the EU would mean in practical, rather than theoretical, terms.  *And yet you expect us to believe that you have not decided on the proposals as you can't without the detail.  Yes.  You really do take the electorate as mugs.
		
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I have great difficulty taking these comments with any degree of seriousness.

The public were asked to decide on a strategic direction. It is not possible to present detail in a strategic plan. If you've had any experience of presenting strategic papers to a Board of Directors or their equivalent you will know that brevity and presenting the key points is critical.

Presenting the public with detail would have been impossible, as I suspect you know.  ANY summary paper can easily be criticised as missing certain detail- its the oldest trick in the book by Director(s) etc. wishing to derail a meeting.

Obviously the  post's comments simply hope to provoke reactions but in the Big Boys world of real decision making strategy is what the Generals  do, Planning and detailed operational execution is left to the soldiers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

Bill Cash this evening - _"The problem is the Civil Service"_

Well I am sure that all the Civil Servants that we hear are slogging away trying to make sense of this shambles will be delighted to hear that assessment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2018)

drdel said:



			I have great difficulty taking these comments with any degree of seriousness.

The public were asked to decide on a strategic direction. It is not possible to present detail in a strategic plan. If you've had any experience of presenting strategic papers to a Board of Directors or their equivalent you will know that brevity and presenting the key points is critical.

*Presenting the public with detail would have been impossible, as I suspect you know. * ANY summary paper can easily be criticised as missing certain detail- its the oldest trick in the book by Director(s) etc. wishing to derail a meeting.

Obviously the  post's comments simply hope to provoke reactions but in the Big Boys world of real decision making strategy is what the Generals  do, Planning and detailed operational execution is left to the soldiers.
		
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Are you suggesting that the pubic isn't capable of understanding the detail of the most important matter facing the country in the last 50yrs?  A decision that - if enacted - is irreversible.  I couldn't possibly make such a suggestion, but you can.


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## Hobbit (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Are you suggesting that the pubic isn't capable of understanding the detail of the most important matter facing the country in the last 50yrs?  A decision that - if enacted - is irreversible.  I couldn't possibly make such a suggestion, but you can.
		
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Youâ€™ve spent 2 years telling every Leaver how stupid they are in the most supercilious manner ever, why stop now?


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## Imurg (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Are you suggesting that the pubic isn't capable of understanding the detail of the most important matter facing the country in the last 50yrs?  A decision that - if enacted - is irreversible.  I couldn't possibly make such a suggestion, but you can.
		
Click to expand...

Most of the General Public - yes!
I've been saying it since day 1
Most people don't read and can't understand the jargon used in basic terms and conditions used to sell you a fridge.
What chance have they both with the minutiae details involved in virtually every area of a Brexit deal? How many pages..?? 1000's? Get your head out of the clouds.
The Public were asked a simple question - Yes or No.
They weren't asked about any customs unions, hard borders or trade deals - just In or Out.
Out won in a fair and proper vote.
It's up to the Government of the day to produce an exit strategy that they feel is best for the Country.
We're in the position we are in because these career politicians, instead of getting on with it and producing a strategy, are jostling for position so they can climb another rung of the political ladder.
The whole thing is becoming a shambles because people couldn't accept the result of the referendum and have been trying to squeeze their own agenda into the workings thus delaying any agreement.
Without all the meanderings this deal could have been sorted by now. But too many are just looking to further their own careers or simply unwilling to accept a majority verdict.


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## USER1999 (Jul 10, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I must admit to finding the whole thing perplexing in many different ways. Let's just take the last week or so. The Tories are the party of business and enterprise. Big business , Airbus and the rest, signal their concerns about frictionless trade for the umpteenth time. Boris comes out with his ridiculous "eff business". Davis publicly offers no reassurance and from Airbus's subsequent repeated anxiety not in private either. It makes me wonder if the significant change of direction at Chequers towards an explicitly softer Brexit was triggered by a loss of patience from major big business Tory donors.Did they get tired of wasting their breath on Davis and threaten May directly, who knows?
If our turd polishing Foreign Secretary steps out of line again maybe, at last, it will be the sack.
		
Click to expand...

So, do you not think that equivalent big business in Europe, such as BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, etc are not lobbying the EU for a deal for frictionless trade?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2018)

Imurg said:



			Most of the General Public - yes!
I've been saying it since day 1
Most people don't read and can't understand the jargon used in basic terms and conditions used to sell you a fridge.
What chance have they both with the minutiae details involved in virtually every area of a Brexit deal? How many pages..?? 1000's? Get your head out of the clouds.
The Public were asked a simple question - Yes or No.
They weren't asked about any customs unions, hard borders or trade deals - just In or Out.
Out won in a fair and proper vote.
*It's up to the Government of the day to produce an exit strategy that they feel is best for the Country.*
We're in the position we are in because these career politicians, instead of getting on with it and producing a strategy, are jostling for position so they can climb another rung of the political ladder.
The whole thing is becoming a shambles because people couldn't accept the result of the referendum and have been trying to squeeze their own agenda into the workings thus delaying any agreement.
Without all the meanderings this deal could have been sorted by now. But too many are just looking to further their own careers or simply unwilling to accept a majority verdict.
		
Click to expand...

I look forward to the admission from the government that the best exit strategy is to not exit.

But meanwhile feel free to blame those who think leaving will be disastrous for the chaos and mess that we are currently experiencing.  That chaos and mess that has nothing to do with the impossibility of doing what has been promised by Leave, and that has been made worse by May's Red Lines.  Yes - it's all the fault of the Remoaners.


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## IanM (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I look forward to the admission from the government that the best exit strategy is to not exit.

But meanwhile feel free to blame those who think leaving will be disastrous for the chaos and mess that we are currently experiencing.  That chaos and mess that has nothing to do with the impossibility of doing what has been promised by Leave, and that has been made worse by May's Red Lines.  Yes - it's all the fault of the Remoaners.
		
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I see. You have nothing new to say have you? You don't think the "chaos" is caused by the PM refusing to enforce  on the outcome of the Referendum and negotiate with the EU properly?  Heck, she went to see Merkel last week to ask permission to put a proposal before the Cabinet!


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## drdel (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Are you suggesting that the pubic isn't capable of understanding the detail of the most important matter facing the country in the last 50yrs?  A decision that - if enacted - is irreversible.  I couldn't possibly make such a suggestion, but you can.
		
Click to expand...

Don't be silly, have a day off: every bit of research into surveys and the phsychology of questionaires proves that details cause confusion and produce results that are indecisive.


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## Imurg (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I look forward to the admission from the government that the best exit strategy is to not exit.

But meanwhile feel free to blame those who think leaving will be disastrous for the chaos and mess that we are currently experiencing.  That chaos and mess that has nothing to do with the impossibility of doing what has been promised by Leave, and that has been made worse by May's Red Lines.  Yes - it's all the fault of the Remoaners.
		
Click to expand...

Brexiteers, Remoaners, Levers etc etc should have been left at the door the day after the referendum.
It's irrelevant.
The Country voted to leave. The worst thing they did was release details of which area voted what... irrelevant.
THE COUNTRY VOTED TO LEAVE
Ok, lots didn't like it but that's democracy for you.
Blaming people just leads to delays.
If everyone, that means EVERYONE, just got on with it and formulated the best way to leave the EU, it would have been done and dusted by now.
Too many people are hanging onto coat tails, trying to get their own way when the way has been decided.
Or do we have a situation where we have "referendum denial"..?
I'm absolutely staying out of all political threads from now on as nothing is said that hasn't been said before, nobody's mind is going to be changed and many are acting worse than 5 year olds in the playground.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I look forward to the admission from the government that the best exit strategy is to not exit.
		
Click to expand...

Are you not a fan of democracy? 

People voted, a decision was made, govt is there to enforce the will of the people. I know this has been repeated time and time again but a decision was made, deal with it.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 10, 2018)

Imurg said:



			Most of the General Public - yes!
I've been saying it since day 1
Most people don't read and can't understand the jargon used in basic terms and conditions used to sell you a fridge.
What chance have they both with the minutiae details involved in virtually every area of a Brexit deal? How many pages..?? 1000's? Get your head out of the clouds.
The Public were asked a simple question - Yes or No.
They weren't asked about any customs unions, hard borders or trade deals - just In or Out.
Out won in a fair and proper vote.
It's up to the Government of the day to produce an exit strategy that they feel is best for the Country.
We're in the position we are in because these career politicians, instead of getting on with it and producing a strategy, are jostling for position so they can climb another rung of the political ladder.
The whole thing is becoming a shambles because people couldn't accept the result of the referendum and have been trying to squeeze their own agenda into the workings thus delaying any agreement.
Without all the meanderings this deal could have been sorted by now. But too many are just looking to further their own careers or simply unwilling to accept a majority verdict.
		
Click to expand...

spot on !!!
Anything involving politicians is always a shambles.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are you not a fan of democracy? 

People voted, a decision was made, govt is there to enforce the will of the people. I know this has been repeated time and time again but a decision was made, deal with it.
		
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Democracy is a continuous process that allows the electorate to change it's mind.


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## drdel (Jul 10, 2018)

British Social Attitude Survey reports 36%, an increase of 12%, of respondents want out of the EU.


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## IanM (Jul 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Democracy is a continuous process that allows the electorate to change it's mind.
		
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But that doesn't include people in charge never standing for election, or those elected, ignoring the outcome of a vote


ps - who (other than you) says the electorate has changed it's mind over Brexit?  Last YouGov Survey reported folk were saying "get on with it!"


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 11, 2018)

Stockpiling food and medicines ahead of 29th March 2019 as contingency in event of No Deal.  What?  Fake News and Project Fear surely?  Well it would have been if it had been said on  23rd June 2016.  But no - it is the headline of today's Sun newspaper.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6747231/ministers-plan-to-stockpile-processed-food/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 11, 2018)

IanM said:



			But that doesn't include people in charge never standing for election, or those elected, ignoring the outcome of a vote


ps - who (other than you) says the electorate has changed it's mind over Brexit?  Last YouGov Survey reported folk were saying "get on with it!"
		
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I am not saying that they _have _ changed their minds but democracy _allows_ the electorate to change their minds.  

We vote for a government once every 5 years.  Our electoral system enables us to change our minds and vote in another party 5 years later.  Once we are out of the EU the opportunity for the electorate to change it's mind vanishes - at least for decades.

How does this show Brussels that we are dead serious over _No Deal_ - when preparation such as this for a _No Deal_ implies a very difficult and chaotic outcome from a No Deal - and so surely something that we would avoid at almost any cost?


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## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not saying that they _have _ changed their minds but democracy _allows_ the electorate to change their minds.  

We vote for a government once every 5 years.  Our electoral system enables us to change our minds and vote in another party 5 years later.  Once we are out of the EU the opportunity for the electorate to change it's mind vanishes - at least for decades.

How does this show Brussels that we are dead serious over _No Deal_ - when preparation such as this for a _No Deal_ implies a very difficult and chaotic outcome from a No Deal - and so surely something that we would avoid at almost any cost?
		
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Weâ€™ve had this discussion on democracy countless times. Enacting the result of the vote is democracy, ignoring it and continually voting on something till you get the answer YOU want absolutely isnâ€™t democracy. 

Enact the vote, then once every 5 years have another, fine.


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## Twire (Jul 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Stockpiling food and medicines ahead of 29th March 2019 as contingency in event of No Deal.  What?  Fake News and Project Fear surely?  Well it would have been if it had been said on  23rd June 2016.  But no - it is the headline of today's Sun newspaper.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6747231/ministers-plan-to-stockpile-processed-food/

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I didn't put you down as a Sun reader to be honest, but that does explain a lot.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 11, 2018)

Twire said:



			I didn't put you down as a Sun reader to be honest, but that does explain a lot.
		
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Not sure what it explains - are you suggesting something about Sun readers?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 11, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			spot on !!!
Anything involving politicians is always a shambles.
		
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So would you have business leaders running the negotiations? 

In fact that was proposed by some Leave voters worried at having the Remainer May leading the way - as clearly businessmen would do a much better job at negotiating our terms of leaving.

But there would have been just a little problem with putting it in the hands of big business would there not...!


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## Twire (Jul 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure what it explains - are you suggesting something about Sun readers?
		
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It just explains where you get your sensationalism from..


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## MegaSteve (Jul 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So would you have business leaders running the negotiations? 

!
		
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I'd sooner have had 'big business' make the opening approach on 'our' behalf rather than DaveCamâ€¦
They don't take prisoners and the UK remaining in is reasonably important to them...
And, I am fairly confident they'd have come away with some concessions...

DaveCams approach was along the lines of 'I am a winner' and I will get a remain vote out of it however small any concessions...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 11, 2018)

Yea, lets get folk like the guy who pulled the plug on BHS and it's staff pension in.
They seem to know a lot about making money [for themselves]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yea, lets get folk like the guy who pulled the plug on BHS and it's staff pension in.
They seem to know a lot about making money [for themselves]
		
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and their shareholders...


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## drdel (Jul 11, 2018)

How can we mention democracy and EU in the same discussion.  We do have an influence over our politicians but we have no say about Juncker,  Barnier and rest of the mob. Even the member states/MEPs cannot bring forward legislation.

Those trying to appease the EU might consider that democracy would be increasingly consigned to history.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			and their shareholders...
		
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And shareholders making money on their investment is wrong because?


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## DaveR (Jul 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Democracy is a continuous process that allows the electorate to change it's mind.
		
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You mean a bit like voting to go into Europe in 1975 then deciding to come out again in 2016 because it wasn't all it was cracked up to be?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2018)

...and in his post NATO summit - when asked about Brexit - Trump tells the assembled press that Brexit happened because of immigration (yes he really did).  Unless that was yet another of his lies...or just another example of his complete ignorance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2018)

DaveR said:



			You mean a bit like voting to go into Europe in 1975 then deciding to come out again in 2016 because it wasn't all it was cracked up to be?
		
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Wll yes - indeed - just like that.  

Though 'not all it was cracked up to be'  - well which bit 'wasn't all it was cracked up to be' as the UK seems to have done pretty well since the miserable days of the 1970s (and I remember them) when the UK economy was truly a 'basket case'.

Meanwhile in the HoC - more chaos in the house as session is suspended as the MPs were not in possession of a copy of the proposed Brexit Deal White Paper.  Couldn't organise a.....in a ....


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wll yes - indeed - just like that.  Though 'not all it was cracked up to be'  - well which bit 'wasn't all it was cracked up to be'.
		
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We went into a trading organisation. It has morphed into something so much bigger and more intrusive than that. That expansion into people's lives is not what was sold, or cracked up to be.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We went into a trading organisation. It has morphed into something so much bigger and more intrusive than that. That expansion into people's lives is not what was sold, or cracked up to be.
		
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That's not what 'all that it was cracked up to be' means - that phrase is generally taken to mean that something was over-sold (Disappointed; failing to meet expectations)


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## DaveR (Jul 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's not what 'all that it was cracked up to be' means - that phrase is generally taken to mean that something was over-sold (Disappointed; failing to meet expectations)
		
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I think LT is pretty much correct with his interpretation.


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## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We went into a trading organisation. It has morphed into something so much bigger and more intrusive than that. That expansion into people's lives is not what was sold, or cracked up to be.
		
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Totally agree with the above. But I feel that with some major tweaking it could be that, and better. I would rather we stayed in but also see it returned closer to a trading organisation. In its current form it is far too federalist and bureaucratic.

As for an EU army; a few years ago Putin said he feared a large single army on Russiaâ€™s border, when talking about the concept of an EU army. Iâ€™m not sure I would want to upset the balance of power. Equally, why does the EU need an army?


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## chrisd (Jul 12, 2018)

Do we need a referendum to decide whether we want another in/out referendum , and are we going for the best of 3 or 5 ?


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## jp5 (Jul 13, 2018)

Suspect if we did have another referendum then it would be on specifics rather than vague unsubstantiated promises. Really the vote that should have been had in the first place.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Suspect if we did have another referendum then it would be on specifics rather than vague unsubstantiated promises. Really the vote that should have been had in the first place.
		
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Define the specifics though. Before the last referendum we had no idea of the terms of leaving, we still don't now. I don't see how it could have been anything other than a simple in or out. A referendum question has to be simple, it can not confuse.


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## jp5 (Jul 13, 2018)

Can't boil down a complex arrangement to a simple question unfortunately! The referendum question was so naff that we've wasted two years arguing about interpretations of the result - of which there was just about every variety on both sides of the argument.

It looks unlikely we will strike a deal that will please *anyone*, though I suspect parliament would still rather take that than no deal which won't go down well.

So I would give the people a vote on what is actually on offer - for instance, no deal vs. rescind A.50. If a deal was struck that could be a third option with a preferential voting system. If the majority of people favour no deal that is what we should go with.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2018)

Compare and contrast Mr Rees-Mogg on Trump and Obama

Rees-Mogg on Obama on Brexit

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/barack-obama-brexit-rees-mogg-eu_uk_56f2799fe4b0f4c81e86f913

Rees-Mogg on Trump on Brexit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7Mhokzv-jw

Mind you I could blame the current chaos on Mrs May for her not listening to the wise words of Mr Trump - who advised her how to do Brexit quickly and easily - and she just didn't accept his advice and went her own way.  What did he advise her to do? - well - of course he couldn't possibly say - that's for Mrs May to tell us.  And as we turn to Mrs May with curiosity written on our faces, Mrs May says 'thanks Donald'.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Compare and contrast Mr Rees-Mogg on Trump and Obama

Rees-Mogg on Obama on Brexit

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/barack-obama-brexit-rees-mogg-eu_uk_56f2799fe4b0f4c81e86f913

Rees-Mogg on Trump on Brexit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7Mhokzv-jw

Mind you I could blame the current chaos on Mrs May for her not listening to the wise words of Mr Trump - who advised her how to do Brexit quickly and easily - and she just didn't accept his advice and went her own way.  What did he advise her to do? - well - of course he couldn't possibly say - that's for Mrs May to tell us.  And as we turn to Mrs May with curiosity written on our faces, Mrs May says 'thanks Donald'.
		
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Get some help mate. Seriously, itâ€™s not healthy.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 13, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Can't boil down a complex arrangement to a simple question unfortunately! The referendum question was so naff *that we've wasted two years arguing about interpretations of the result* - of which there was just about every variety on both sides of the argument.

It looks unlikely we will strike a deal that will please *anyone*, though I suspect parliament would still rather take that than no deal which won't go down well.

So I would give the people a vote on what is actually on offer - for instance, no deal vs. rescind A.50. If a deal was struck that could be a third option with a preferential voting system. If the majority of people favour no deal that is what we should go with.
		
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No!   The likes of you have, the rest of us were quite clear all along what we voted for and wanted.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 13, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Suspect if we did have another referendum then it would be on specifics rather than vague unsubstantiated promises. Really the vote that should have been had in the first place.
		
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It was crystal clear: Leave the EU; Yes or NO.


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## Old Skier (Jul 13, 2018)

Seems he did the Sun interview for a laugh.

"[h=1]Donald Trump: US-UK trade deal 'absolutely possible[/h]


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Seems he did the Sun interview for a laugh.

"*Donald Trump: US-UK trade deal 'absolutely possible*

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I wouldn't be surprised if he did another about face once he's back on U.S. soil.


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## Old Skier (Jul 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I wouldn't be surprised if he did another about face once he's back on U.S. soil.
		
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At least twice between now and Oct but someone on here likes to take every quote as fact even though he accuses the man of being a liar. 

Strange really.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2018)

Well whaddya know.  Justin Greening proposing a further vote to unblock the deadlock as the Chequers Deal is rubbish.  And in the face of much agreement that a No Deal would be disastrous - notwithstanding the confidence of some that a No Deal is the way to go and that things would be just fine after a short period of turbulence...not that too many who actually know about such things agree.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44840154


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## chrisd (Jul 16, 2018)

Great Tory plan - bring out a naff White Paper that goes nowhere near the requirements of a proper Brexit as voted by the majority of voters, completely cock up the dealings so that they feel justified in requesting another vote and trust that enough voters are so fed up with the process that they change their minds and vote to remain, as is wanted by TM - do they think we're that stupid?

Take it as a 'no deal' and walk away  - easy solution!


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Great Tory plan - bring out a naff White Paper that goes nowhere near the requirements of a proper Brexit as voted by the majority of voters, completely cock up the dealings so that they feel justified in requesting another vote and trust that enough voters are so fed up with the process that they change their minds and vote to remain, as is wanted by TM - do they think we're that stupid?

Take it as a 'no deal' and walk away  - easy solution!
		
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That may be the plan but there's an article just out on the Beeb site that says there's no appetite for a second vote, and little evidence that people have changed their mind.

I think the next couple of days, up to the summer recess on Wednesday will be very telling for May's plan. If she lasts till Wednesday, I think her plan will get through the Commons. Not sure what Barnier et al will make of it?


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## User2021 (Jul 16, 2018)

*TRESemme, no second vote coming up on Sky News breaking news*


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## IanM (Jul 16, 2018)

No need for one... we are effectively staying in, although the Prime Minister is telling us we are not.

The Shadow Home Sec meanwhile is busy campaigning for a 5th Referendum......Tory Marginal MPs are busy updating their CVs....  and Mr Corbyn has been in talks with China for the delivery of 68 million "one size fits all" Peoples' Suits! 

In other news, my lunchtime driving range bucket had a brand new Pro V1 in it!  Kowabunga!


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## jp5 (Jul 16, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			No!   The likes of you have, the rest of us were quite clear all along what we voted for and wanted.
		
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No idea what you mean by "the likes of you" ... but evidently it wasn't that clear, else it would be done by now!

The prominent Leave Tories allowing May to become PM was one of their biggest mistakes. One of them should have taken on the mantle and delivered _their_ vision of Brexit. If it were a success they would be PM for years to come.

This half-in half-out nonsense will please no-one, though TM will claim it carries the will of the people. If there were a vote on the final outcome I think "no deal" would win. But either way, there at least would be a mandate for what is implemented.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2018)

IanM said:



			No need for one... we are effectively staying in, although the Prime Minister is telling us we are not.

The Shadow Home Sec meanwhile is busy campaigning for a 5th Referendum......Tory Marginal MPs are busy updating their CVs....  and Mr Corbyn has been in talks with China for the delivery of 68 million "one size fits all" Peoples' Suits! 

In other news, my lunchtime driving range bucket had a brand new Pro V1 in it!  Kowabunga!
		
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Staying in but worse off than if we actually stayed in - with notional ideas of having regained control and our sovereignty - how brilliant is that outcome...when we never really lost either - just that some told us we had and some of us really believed them and that regaining them would make all the difference.  Well there you go.


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## Old Skier (Jul 16, 2018)

Isn't it strange that all those remainers on this site and in Parliament who said that the common man shouldn't have been allowed a vote on leaving the EU because the matter was to complex have been pushing for another referendum ever since they lost.


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Staying in but worse off than if we actually stayed in - with notional ideas of having regained control and our sovereignty - how brilliant is that outcome...when we never really lost either - just that some told us we had and some of us really believed them and that regaining them would make all the difference.  Well there you go.
		
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The White Paper is a huge compromise between leaving and staying. Isnâ€™t that what youâ€™ve been asking for, for Leavers to recognise Remainers?

You donâ€™t want the walk away, no deal. And it would appear you donâ€™t want the compromise youâ€™ve bleated on about since day 1.

Your true colours are really showing through now.


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## drdel (Jul 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Staying in but worse off than if we actually stayed in - with notional ideas of having regained control and our sovereignty - how brilliant is that outcome...when we never really lost either - just that some told us we had and some of us really believed them and that regaining them would make all the difference.  Well there you go.
		
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It seems that there is absolutely nothing anyone can do or say that would meet with your approval. A vote was taken - the future will unfold and at the next election you can support the government or vote for the opposition as you are free to do in a democracy.

Perhaps the future direction of the UK seems so tragic that a change of citizenship might be a happier outcome. Where do you fancy might be an acceptable nation; obviously it will need to be somewhere with an accurate and very detailed plan?


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well whaddya know.  Justin Greening proposing a further vote to unblock the deadlock as the Chequers Deal is rubbish.  And in the face of much agreement that a No Deal would be disastrous - notwithstanding the confidence of some that a No Deal is the way to go and that things would be just fine after a short period of turbulence...not that too many who actually know about such things agree.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44840154

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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Staying in but worse off than if we actually stayed in - with notional ideas of having regained control and our sovereignty - how brilliant is that outcome...when we never really lost either - just that some told us we had and some of us really believed them and that regaining them would make all the difference.  Well there you go.
		
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NEWSFLASH; We don't need another referendum, we need a set of politicians with the will, brains and testicular fortitude to actually get the job done.  

Rather than post on here, e-mail your mate Jeremy and his chums; the failure to enact the will of the majority of those who bothered to vote is entirely on the politicians, NOT the electorate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 16, 2018)

The last thing this country needs is another bloody referendum or general election or any type of vote - they just need to have the moral backbone to get on with it regardless , sick of spineless politicians bottling it and constant whinging about the vote

It was all done wrong from the start but itâ€™s done now - deal with it


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## IanM (Jul 16, 2018)

Cameron was told there was NO CHANCE of a Leave win... when it happened they were ordered to put plan b into operation....  namely mess about and ignore the result 

Funny thing Iâ€™ve been getting abusive emails from a former colleague about the Referendum for two years.  Got another tonight, so I said Iâ€™ve kept them all and Iâ€™m sending them to his boss.. oh my he is in major panic mode!


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## Dando (Jul 16, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			NEWSFLASH; We don't need another referendum, we need a set of politicians with the will, brains and testicular fortitude to actually get the job done.  

Rather than post on here, e-mail your mate Jeremy and his chums; the failure to enact the will of the majority of those who bothered to vote is entirely on the politicians, NOT the electorate.
		
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Cant we have a vote on wether we have another referendum?


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## IanM (Jul 16, 2018)

Irony =  calls for another referendum by  people who donâ€™t accept referendum results!!


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## Hobbit (Jul 17, 2018)

Dando said:



			Cant we have a vote on wether we have another referendum?
		
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I reckon itâ€™ll be best of 10, stone, paper, scissors. Away votes count double, and the result will be overturned by VAR.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2018)

IanM said:



			Irony =  calls for another referendum by  people who donâ€™t accept referendum results!!
		
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Double irony = calls for a second referendum by people who won the first referendum


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## Hobbit (Jul 17, 2018)

IanM said:



			Irony =  calls for another referendum by  people who donâ€™t accept referendum results!!
		
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Is that the Brexit vote or Scottish independence?


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## spongebob59 (Jul 17, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Is that the Brexit vote or Scottish independence?
		
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:clap:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The White Paper is a huge compromise between leaving and staying. Isnâ€™t that what youâ€™ve been asking for, for Leavers to recognise Remainers?

You donâ€™t want the walk away, no deal. And it would appear you donâ€™t want the compromise youâ€™ve bleated on about since day 1.

Your true colours are really showing through now.
		
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Yes - except by having to maintain, as best she can to at least some of her Red Lines, May has come up with a position that as far as I understand it will be damaging to the UK.  Come up with a Deal that isn't most likely to be damaging to the UK and I might support it.  

What May has come up with is not something she thinks folk who voted Remain might accept - No - it is something that she hopes the EU might accept.  It is a compromise for the EU - not for us who did not vote to leave; for whom the mess that the government is in in trying to find a Deal that might work is simply confirmation that Leaving the EU can only be a disaster for the country.

And for those who think that leaving with No Deal - such easily said two words that hide massive implications and disruptions - that No Deal will be just fine and just what the country voted for - well - _'There are none so blind and those who refuse to see'_.  

But of course all of those who have spent the last two advocating that all will be fine - for whom accepting and admitting that maybe all is not what we thought or were told it would be would be very difficult indeed - all those folks will be unable to make that admission.  And so May must enable that admission to be made by making it absolutely clear why she has had to come up with the deal she has - and why leaving with No Deal will be a disaster.  Maybe she'll only do that when the Tory Party decide to get rid of her.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - except by having to maintain, as best she can to at least some of her Red Lines, May has come up with a position that as far as I understand it will be damaging to the UK.  Come up with a Deal that isn't most likely to be damaging to the UK and I might support it.  

What May has come up with is not something she thinks folk who voted Remain might accept - No - it is something that she hopes the EU might accept.  It is a compromise for the EU - *not for us who did not vote to leave*; for whom the mess that the government is in in trying to find a Deal that might work is simply confirmation that Leaving the EU can only be a disaster for the country.
		
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but we did


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Isn't it strange that all those remainers on this site and in Parliament who said that the common man shouldn't have been allowed a vote on leaving the EU because the matter was to complex have been pushing for another referendum ever since they lost.
		
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And now - as I predicted without the need for much insight - we start to hear supporters of Leave suggesting that a 'second' referendum is the only way to break the deadlock.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - except by having to maintain, as best she can to at least some of her Red Lines, May has come up with a position that as far as I understand it will be damaging to the UK.  Come up with a Deal that isn't most likely to be damaging to the UK and I might support it.  

What May has come up with is not something she thinks folk who voted Remain might accept - No - it is something that she hopes the EU might accept.  It is a compromise for the EU - not for us who did not vote to leave; for whom the mess that the government is in in trying to find a Deal that might work is simply confirmation that Leaving the EU can only be a disaster for the country.
		
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Donâ€™t kid yourself - the only thing you would support would be the vote being ignored and staying fully in Europe , your stance is quite clear , you are not willing to see if things can be better going forward outside the Eu , you are not willing to give people a chance. Every single day you have posted about Brexit over the past two years - nothing has changed in your stance - you have a clear disrespect for the democratic process that happened

The country voted - every single person had the chance to make their say and the result was clear 

Either to stay in the EU or Leave the EU , whatever deal is struck that means we have left the deal satisfies the vote. What is it with some Scottish people who fail to respect a democratic vote.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2018)

drdel said:



			It seems that there is absolutely nothing anyone can do or say that would meet with your approval. A vote was taken - the future will unfold and at the next election you can support the government or vote for the opposition as you are free to do in a democracy.

Perhaps the future direction of the UK seems so tragic that a change of citizenship might be a happier outcome. Where do you fancy might be an acceptable nation; obviously it will need to be somewhere with an accurate and very detailed plan?
		
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You chose to ignore the fact that once we leave the EU we cannot vote at the next General Election to stay in.  We can choose the government that most reflects our views and aspirations - and if in 5yrs that government has failed to deliver - we can vote them out.  But we cannot simply do the same in respect of leaving the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Donâ€™t kid yourself - the only thing you would support would be the vote being ignored and staying fully in Europe , your stance is quite clear , you are not willing to see if things can be better going forward outside the Eu , you are not willing to give people a chance. Every single day you have posted about Brexit over the past two years - nothing has changed in your stance - you have a clear disrespect for the democratic process that happened

The country voted - every single person had the chance to make their say and the result was clear 

Either to stay in the EU or Leave the EU , whatever deal is struck that means we have left the deal satisfies the vote. What is it with some Scottish people who fail to respect a democratic vote.
		
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I can respect a leave vote - I would like a vote on the terms of leaving - that is democracy.  Refusing a vote on the terms of leaving is anti-democratic.  Democracy is a process.  There is a set process for parliamentary elections and choosing and replacing governments.  There is no set process for choosing to leave and rejoin the EU.  The democratic process in respect of Leaving/Remaining can only truly operate prior to leaving.  That should be very obvious.


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## USER1999 (Jul 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can respect a leave vote - I would like a vote on the terms of leaving - that is democracy.  Refusing a vote on the terms of leaving is anti-democratic.  Democracy is a process.  There is a set process for parliamentary elections and choosing and replacing governments.  There is no set process for choosing to leave and rejoin the EU.  The democratic process in respect of Leaving/Remaining can only truly operate prior to leaving.  That should be very obvious.
		
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There will be a vote on the terms of leaving. It will be held in the house of commons, exactly where it should be held. Was this not what the Gina Miller thing was all about?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can respect a leave vote - I would like a vote on the terms of leaving - that is democracy.  Refusing a vote on the terms of leaving is anti-democratic.  Democracy is a process.  There is a set process for parliamentary elections and choosing and replacing governments.  There is no set process for choosing to leave and rejoin the EU.  The democratic process in respect of Leaving/Remaining can only truly operate prior to leaving.  That should be very obvious.
		
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So you would accept a referendum on the terms of leaving and as you don't want to overturn the result of the referendum we could have 3 options if we were to have another vote.....

1) Reject the negotiated deal and send the government back to renegotiate our leaving terms
2) Accept the deal
3) Reject the deal and leave with no deal

That would satisfy your demands for a vote on the deal and doesn't require a "reject the deal and remain in the EU" option as you don't wish to overturn the original result.  But of course that wouldn't be acceptable to you as despite all of your protestations what you really want is to stay in the EU and sod all those that voted leave.

And why can't we leave and then apply to rejoin? Do the EU rules expressly forbid any country that has left from applying to rejoin? I suspect that your main fear is that if there was to be a subsequent vote on whether to rejoin the EU it would be a landslide in favour of No simply because of how high our annual payments would be and what the EU would demand for us to rejoin. And of course the public shouldn't be trusted with a vote to rejoin as they can't possibly understand the complexity of what it would mean.


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## Hobbit (Jul 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can respect a leave vote - I would like a vote on the terms of leaving - that is democracy.  Refusing a vote on the terms of leaving is anti-democratic.  Democracy is a process.  There is a set process for parliamentary elections and choosing and replacing governments.  There is no set process for choosing to leave and rejoin the EU.  The democratic process in respect of Leaving/Remaining can only truly operate prior to leaving.  That should be very obvious.
		
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It is very obvious that enacting the result of a vote is democracy. The vote was to Leave(sadly). It wasnâ€™t a vote on the terms of leaving. It was made very clear by the Remain team that leaving would entail leaving the single market and the customs union.

What we are seeing now is an almighty fudge by a Remain PM to stay in.


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## IanM (Jul 17, 2018)

As SILH has said consistently, democracy is a process and people can change their mind, so you need to keep checking....

I wonder what that means.... a General election every 3 years, or maybe 2, or how about every month. maybe weekly???

No. What he means is, I disagree, please vote again till you plebs get it right.  He is not alone.  The EU have achieved this every time anyone has voted against any Treaty, transfer of power or even membership.  

Mrs May is just messing it up to ensure we dont go.  She will be well rewarded by Brussels for her loyalty... as were the Kinnocks and Tony B.  Nice work if you can get it.


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## PieMan (Jul 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can respect a leave vote - I would like a vote on the terms of leaving - that is democracy.  Refusing a vote on the terms of leaving is anti-democratic.  Democracy is a process.  There is a set process for parliamentary elections and choosing and replacing governments.  There is no set process for choosing to leave and rejoin the EU.  The democratic process in respect of Leaving/Remaining can only truly operate prior to leaving.  That should be very obvious.
		
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Respect the leave vote? You've done no such thing over the 1000's of pages and posts on this and other threads!!  

Even though there won't be another vote, what would your position be if there was and the electorate decided that actually the final deal was not in the best interests of the UK and therefore we left under 'no deal' terms? Would you accept that? Your previous suggests that you wouldn't and you'd therefore continue to argue for yet another referendum/vote!

Let's face it all you want is for the UK to remain in the EU. You have not accepted a democratic process that has already taken place!

Were you one of those children who kept on screaming and screaming until they got what they wanted? Because that's how you're coming across (I would imagine to most remainers as well).


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## Hobbit (Jul 17, 2018)

And the EU continues to rush through free trade deals around the world, pre-empting the UK's desire to set up deals prior to Brexit. And shock of shocks, the EU continues to say no to a free trade deal with the UK.

EU to sign its biggest free trade deal with Japan
The European Union and Japan will sign one of the world's biggest free trade deals later on Tuesday.
The move will create an open trade zone covering nearly a third of the world's GDP and 600 million people.
One of the biggest EU exports to Japan is dairy goods, while cars are one of Japan's biggest exports.
The move is in sharp contrast to the stance taken by the Trump administration in the US, which has introduced steep import tariffs.
The US was in talks with Japan and other Asian countries 18 months ago about a wide-ranging free-trade agreement, the Trans-Pacific trade agreement, but Donald Trump withdrew from this in one of his first moves after becoming president.
Since then, his "America First" policy has seen tariffs introduced on a range of items, including steel, which both Japan and the EU export to the US.
'Political will'
Firms in the EU, the world's biggest free-trade zone, currently export more than $100bn (Â£75bn) in goods and services to Japan, the world's third-biggest economy, every year.
The EU's top officials will be in Japan for the signing ceremony, including the EU Council's President, Donald Tusk, and the European Commission's head, Jean-Claude Juncker. 
Speaking in China on Monday, Mr Tusk said: "It is the common duty of Europe and China, but also America and Russia, not to destroy [the global trade order] but to improve it, not to start trade wars which turned into hot conflicts so often in our history.
"There is still time to prevent conflict and chaos."
Japan's Minister for Economic Revitalisation, Toshimitsu Motegi, said on Tuesday: "At a time when protectionist measures are gaining steam globally, the signing of the Japan-EU deal today will show the world once again our unwavering political will to promote free trade."
Source: BBC


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## jp5 (Jul 17, 2018)

I'm sure we could strike that deal with the EU, though of course it wouldn't cover the bulk of our economy of services and it would mean border checks on goods - which it seems the Government is not keen on.


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## hors limite (Jul 17, 2018)

I wish that the Leavers would spell out how we are going to be better off outside the EU. I have yet to hear a sensible reply to the concerns about the loss of frictionless trade. Similarly, why on earth in the context of the size of the respective markets would a country offer the UK a better trade deal than it would the EU? Marvellous new export markets - the Germans are doing wonderfully well exporting their goods outside the EU and within the present trade deals. Could it be that it's not the EU that's holding the UK back but the lack of  enough attractive products? Tariffs, Rees Mogg keeps telling us that some goods could be cheaper and if pressed he talks about bloody shoes! The threat to existing and future inward investment - if the frictionless trade disappears and any sort of tariff is applied, things look bleak.In financial and other services where we are very strong, there is definitely going to some loss of access to the EU market with the job losses that will follow.
Brexiteers are content to trot out "project fear" and "don't believe the experts". Doesn't it remind you of someone else's "fake news"?


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## IanM (Jul 17, 2018)

Well, no one actually knows whether we'll be better off or not.   It depends on the prevailing world economic conditions in the future and the ability and willignness of the UK Govt to do a decent job of it!!

But this isnt just about being *"better off economically"* is it?  Of course, that has been the main thrust of the "post Referrendum" Remain campaign - which rather than stop in 2016, upped it's expenditure.

Some folk have even been convinced by it!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2018)

Besides - Leaving the EU is one process; Re-Engaging with the EU is another quite separate process.  

But it is clearly sensible to run both processes in parallel as there is no point in breaking all integrations and links with the EU as a result of leaving - only to then have to go through the process of later recreating them for a Re-Engagement.  And so we have the mantra that nothing is agreed until all is agreed.  But that is as much pragmatic expediency as anything else.

The UK is currently leaving the EU and is taking back control over the terms of re-engagement of UK with EU.  We know this for sure as May has set out her Red Lines - the UK is in control.  Now UK might decide to blur or ignore one or more of these red Lines to get a re-engagement deal.  But we are in control of that.

And that is what I believe May is saying.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2018)

IanM said:



			Well, no one actually knows whether we'll be better off or not.   It depends on the prevailing world economic conditions in the future and the ability and willignness of the UK Govt to do a decent job of it!!

But this isnt just about being *"better off economically"* is it?  Of course, that has been the main thrust of the "post Referrendum" Remain campaign - which rather than stop in 2016, upped it's expenditure.

Some folk have even been convinced by it!  

Click to expand...

You are quite right it absolutely isn't all about the economy.  For many if not most Leave voters it's actually all about immigration (whether or not they'd publicly admit it is another matter).  It just is.


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## IanM (Jul 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are quite right it absolutely isn't all about the economy.  For many if not most Leave voters it's actually all about immigration (whether or not they'd publicly admit it is another matter).  It just is.
		
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Ignorant generalisation which you've posted on here several thousand times now....  And ignored the possibility of all the others!  Never mind... Russians dun it guv!


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## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can respect a leave vote - I would like a vote on the terms of leaving - that is democracy.  Refusing a vote on the terms of leaving is anti-democratic.
		
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From the man who doesn't respect the referendum vote which was leave and should be respected by the politicians who are finding every which way they can to stay.

Whole thing is a massive con, as is the suggestion that remainers want a second referendum. Another lie.


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## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are quite right it absolutely isn't all about the economy.  For many if not most Leave voters it's actually all about immigration (whether or not they'd publicly admit it is another matter).  It just is.
		
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You continue to trot out your blinkered view on why people voted the way they did and as normal your wrong.


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## bobmac (Jul 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are quite right it absolutely isn't all about the economy.  For many if not most Leave voters it's actually all about immigration (whether or not they'd publicly admit it is another matter).  It just is.
		
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So you claim you know what 17.4m voters were thinking over 2 years ago.
That's an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence.

Please give your evidence for this claim


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## Old Skier (Jul 17, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So you claim you know what 17.4m voters were thinking over 2 years ago.
That's an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence.

Please give your evidence for this claim
		
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Wait for it - it will be the old, "I didn't say it, it was someone else guv".


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## bluewolf (Jul 17, 2018)

Same'ol comments by the same'ol posters. 

Anyway, in relatively new news. Most political commentators are now stating that it's either going to be a hard Brexit or none at all. The amendments tabled by the ERG have effectively destroyed May's white paper. May has tabled a motion asking for the Summer break to be brought forward (which would possibly save her from being removed). 

And in other news, the Leave Campaign would appear to have broken spending rules and overspent by Â£600k (IIRC). 

Interesting times. Would this be time to remind people that a Government agency claimed that 2.7m jobs would be at risk from a hard Brexit?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are quite right it absolutely isn't all about the economy.  For many if not most Leave voters it's actually all about immigration (whether or not they'd publicly admit it is another matter).  It just is.
		
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Yes you are absolutely right. I don't give a stuff if my job goes down the pan and I lose my home, my kids have no future  and there is nobody to make up the beds in the hotels that I will no longer be able to afford to stay in. All that matters is we kick the foreigners out  :thup:


You seriously do come out with some utter rubbish!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 17, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Interesting times. Would this be time to remind people that a Government agency claimed that 2.7m jobs would be at risk from a hard Brexit?
		
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I'm sure if I googled long enough I could another Government agency that claims 2.8m new jobs will be created


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## bluewolf (Jul 17, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Yes you are absolutely right. I don't give a stuff if my job goes down the pan and I lose my home, my kids have no future  and there is nobody to make up the beds in the hotels that I will no longer be able to afford to stay in. All that matters is we kick the foreigners out  :thup:


You seriously do come out with some utter rubbish!
		
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You do paint such a bright picture &#128514;&#128514;


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## bluewolf (Jul 17, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I'm sure if I googled long enough I could another Government agency that claims 2.8m new jobs will be created  

Click to expand...

Go on then


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 17, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Go on then 

Click to expand...

OK hang on......I'll be right back..........................


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## bluewolf (Jul 17, 2018)

drive4show said:



			OK hang on......I'll be right back..........................






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If you don't mind I'm going to enjoy a nice glass of Malbec while I wait


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 17, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			If you don't mind I'm going to enjoy a nice case of Malbec while I wait 

Click to expand...

Fixed for you Danny  :thup:


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## bluewolf (Jul 17, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Fixed for you Danny  :thup:
		
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You know me too well mate. 

Are you going to Fish's golf do? Would be good to catch up :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jul 17, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			You know me too well mate. 

Are you going to Fish's golf do? Would be good to catch up :thup:
		
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Certainly am, staying over on Thursday night. You bring the malbec, I'll bring the glasses  :thup:


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## Hobbit (Jul 17, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			And in other news, the Leave Campaign would appear to have broken spending rules and overspent by Â£600k (IIRC
		
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And Cameron spent Â£9m immediately before the campaign started, leafleting every household but got away with it because it was before the official start date.

Pots and kettles


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## bluewolf (Jul 17, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And Cameron spent Â£9m immediately before the campaign started, leafleting every household but got away with it because it was before the official start date.

Pots and kettles
		
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And it was described as an answer to the significant percentage of the British population who had asked for more information regarding the EU. Whatever your (or my) thoughts on the validity of that, what cannot be disputed is that the Leave campaign have been found to have significantly overspent in the days leading up to the election. What makes it even more interesting is what they chose to spend that money on...


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## bluewolf (Jul 17, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Certainly am, staying over on Thursday night. You bring the malbec, I'll bring the glasses  :thup:
		
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Ah, I'm staying over on the Friday. More Malbec for me


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## Hobbit (Jul 17, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			And it was described as an answer to the significant percentage of the British population who had asked for more information regarding the EU. Whatever your (or my) thoughts on the validity of that, what cannot be disputed is that the Leave campaign have been found to have significantly overspent in the days leading up to the election. What makes it even more interesting is what they chose to spend that money on...
		
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Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that Leave shouldnâ€™t have done what they did I do think itâ€™s naive to say it was ok for Cameron to, in effect, do the same. Both sides were â€˜educatingâ€™ the voters.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Same'ol comments by the same'ol posters. 

Anyway, in relatively new news. Most political commentators are now stating that it's either going to be a hard Brexit or none at all. The amendments tabled by the ERG have effectively destroyed May's white paper. May has tabled a motion asking for the Summer break to be brought forward (which would possibly save her from being removed). 

And in other news, the Leave Campaign would appear to have broken spending rules and overspent by Â£600k (IIRC). 

Interesting times. Would this be time to remind people that a Government agency claimed that 2.7m jobs would be at risk from a hard Brexit?
		
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Please can you remind me if you voted 'leave' or 'Remain'


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## bluewolf (Jul 17, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Please can you remind me if you voted 'leave' or 'Remain'
		
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Why?

You know which way I voted. Seems like quite a waste of time really.

Would it change any of the things currently happening?


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## bluewolf (Jul 17, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that Leave shouldnâ€™t have done what they did I do think itâ€™s naive to say it was ok for Cameron to, in effect, do the same. Both sides were â€˜educatingâ€™ the voters.
		
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It may be a mere (legal) detail, but the Government leaflet was put out by the Government, not the Remain campaign. I agree that it was slightly dodgy, but it broke no rules.


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			It may be a mere (legal) detail, but the Government leaflet was put out by the Government, not the Remain campaign. I agree that it was slightly dodgy, but it broke no rules.
		
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Hiding under the banner of a govt leaflet, issued before the start date of campaigning, is disingenuous. It had a pure Remain bias.


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## bluewolf (Jul 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Hiding under the banner of a govt leaflet, issued before the start date of campaigning, is disingenuous. It had a pure Remain bias.
		
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But we agree that it broke no rules?

So, at best, the Leave campaign was stupid? At worst?


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 18, 2018)

The whole thing is so riddled with political dogma and self servicement, it has left me thinking that nothing we finally get is going to benefit the common man, or even the  country.
The whole process has left us the laughing stock of Europe and rest of the World.

I have no faith in the process or those responsible for it.


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## bluewolf (Jul 18, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The whole thing is so riddled with political dogma and self servicement, it has left me thinking that nothing we finally get is going to benefit the common man, or even the  country.
The whole process has left us the laughing stock of Europe and rest of the World.

I have no faith in the process or those responsible for it.
		
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Can't argue with that in the slightest. In my opinion, any chance there was of obtaining a beneficial result from this process has been squandered by inept and or self serving politicians who have made mistake after mistake since the result was announced. We are now going to hell in a handcart and all the high profile supporters will take their money and leave.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 18, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Can't argue with that in the slightest. In my opinion, any chance there was of obtaining a beneficial result from this process has been squandered by inept and or self serving politicians who have made mistake after mistake since the result was announced. We are now going to hell in a handcart and all the high profile supporters will take their money and leave.
		
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..with the additional benefits of those golden pensions.:angry:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 18, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The whole thing is so riddled with political dogma and self servicement, it has left me thinking that nothing we finally get is going to benefit the common man, or even the  country.
The whole process has left us the laughing stock of Europe and rest of the World.

I have no faith in the process or those responsible for it.
		
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I don't think you will find anyone on both sides of the divide who will disagree with that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't think you will find anyone on both sides of the divide who will disagree with that.
		
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Furious tirade from Anna Soubry at Jacob Rees-Mogg yesterday in the HoC - and she was absolutely spot on.  That guy and the rest of his  ERG cronies seem hell-bent on getting the UK out of the EU regardless of the economic or social damage that will result (see also John Major - someone who might know a fair bit about Euroscepticism; the EU and such things) - and damage there will inevitably be.

Even if absolutely nothing else - on leaving the EU the UK will lose the economic and social benefits of the free-trade deal the EU yesterday struck with Japan.  Whether the UK over time will strike a trade deal with Japan more beneficial to us than that struck yesterday who knows - but whatever the deal might be, that deal is going to take some time to agree and so meanwhile we will be worse off in our trade with Japan.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Furious tirade from Anna Soubry at Jacob Rees-Mogg yesterday in the HoC - and she was absolutely spot on.  That guy and the rest of his  ERG cronies seem hell-bent on getting the UK out of the EU regardless of the economic or social damage that will result (see also John Major - someone who might know a fair bit about Euroscepticism; the EU and such things) - and damage there will inevitably be.

Even if absolutely nothing else - on leaving the EU the UK will lose the economic and social benefits of the free-trade deal the EU yesterday struck with Japan.  Whether the UK over time will strike a trade deal with Japan more beneficial to us than that struck yesterday who knows - but whatever the deal might be, that deal is going to take some time to agree and so meanwhile we will be worse off in our trade with Japan.
		
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The Sourbry tirade it great if you agree with her point of view. If you believe that the UK should leave the EU as per the vote that her tirade was just that. 

Trade deal with Japan - You constantly forget that a deal is a reciprocal thing. If Japan want better access to our markets, by crikey they do, they need a deal as much as we do. It is a two way thing. Japan will be keen to deal with us after Brexit as it is a market they are established in and can see the benefits of selling more to us. Should be pretty simple.


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## bluewolf (Jul 18, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The Sourbry tirade it great if you agree with her point of view. If you believe that the UK should leave the EU as per the vote that her tirade was just that. 

Trade deal with Japan - You constantly forget that a deal is a reciprocal thing. If Japan want better access to our markets, by crikey they do, they need a deal as much as we do. It is a two way thing. Japan will be keen to deal with us after Brexit as it is a market they are established in and can see the benefits of selling more to us. Should be pretty simple.
		
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Trade deals are never simple. IIRC from my economics classes, an average trade deal can take up to 7 years (Vague memory so may be wrong on this)


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## MegaSteve (Jul 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Furious tirade from Anna Soubry at Jacob Rees-Mogg yesterday in the HoC - and she was absolutely spot on.  That guy and the rest of his  ERG cronies seem hell-bent on getting the UK out of the EU regardless of the economic or social damage that will result (see also John Major - someone who might know a fair bit about Euroscepticism; the EU and such things) - and damage there will inevitably be.

Even if absolutely nothing else - on leaving the EU the UK will lose the economic and social benefits of the free-trade deal the EU yesterday struck with Japan.  Whether the UK over time will strike a trade deal with Japan more beneficial to us than that struck yesterday who knows - but whatever the deal might be, that deal is going to take some time to agree and so meanwhile we will be worse off in our trade with Japan.
		
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John flippin' MAJOR :angry::angry::angry:....
You're having a proper giraffe citing him for anything other than treason...

Probably the true architect of delivering us up muddy creek without a paddle...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 18, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Trade deals are never simple. IIRC from my economics classes, an average trade deal can take up to 7 years (Vague memory so may be wrong on this)
		
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I was simplifying things a little but actually they don't need to be overly complicated if you have two parties who both want to deal. If you take dealing with the EU you have to satisfy 28 countries, all wanting their key items to be included in a deal. That is difficult. 

If you take the UK doing a deal with Japan it is far more straightforward, 1 country dealing with 1 country, both wanting a similar end result. Shouldn't be too hostile, we already have good trade between the two countries.

I appreciate the detail can be devilish but if you can take a template of an existing deal and amend it then the time needed should be reduced. I do fully accept it would not be sorted over a cup of tea, it may take a full pot


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			John flippin' MAJOR :angry::angry::angry:....
You're having a proper giraffe citing him for anything other than treason...

Probably the true architect of delivering us up muddy creek without a paddle...
		
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I guessed of such scoffing about John Major - but say what you want about him - he understands the EU as well if not better than anyone.  And that is the point.  He actually understands these things and understands the implications of leaving.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And Cameron spent Â£9m immediately before the campaign started, leafleting every household but got away with it because it was before the official start date.

Pots and kettles
		
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Well Cameron stated the government's position - he would not want to state and encourage the opposing viewpoint - one that he felt would be extremely damaging to the country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The Sourbry tirade it great if you agree with her point of view. If you believe that the UK should leave the EU as per the vote that her tirade was just that. 

Trade deal with Japan - You constantly forget that a deal is a reciprocal thing. If Japan want better access to our markets, by crikey they do, they need a deal as much as we do. It is a two way thing. *Japan will be keen to deal with us after Brexit as it is a market they are established in *and can see the benefits of selling more to us. Should be pretty simple.
		
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I might suggest that Japanese manufacturers in the UK are largely here because we are in the EU.  I do not know what percentage of the Japanese goods that we buy in the UK are manufactured in the UK or elsewhere in the EU.  And if we leave the EU with No Deal then I would have thought the economics of that manufacturing and import/export to/from the EU countries would chnage.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I might suggest that Japanese manufacturers in the UK are largely here because we are in the EU.  I do not know what percentage of the Japanese goods that we buy in the UK are manufactured in the UK or elsewhere in the EU.  And if we leave the EU with No Deal then I would have thought the economics of that manufacturing and import/export to/from the EU countries would chnage.
		
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Quite possibly although the UK market for Japanese cars is significant and surprisingly enough a large number of cars from the Nissan plant are exported back to Japan, strange but true. The UK govt bung them a 'grant' every year, they certainly do to Nissan, so whether they stay or go will be interesting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Quite possibly although the UK market for Japanese cars is significant and surprisingly enough a large number of cars from the Nissan plant are exported back to Japan, strange but true. The UK govt bung them a 'grant' every year, they certainly do to Nissan, so whether they stay or go will be interesting.
		
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Indeed - but nobody knows.  And so there remains a risk that Nissan might just 'lift and shift' (though maybe not quite) from Sunderland to somewhere else in the EU27.  

Is the government going to be bunging *everyone *a grant to encourage them to stay?  I suppose they could and that would be one of the benefits of being _'back in control'_ - of _'regaining our sovereignty_'.  We'd be free to bribe manufacturers to stay in the UK without the EU telling us we are breaking rules and that we can't do that.  

Though I must find out what WTO rules say in respect of grants (bribes).

Meanwhile back in the land still referred to as _'Project Fear'_ (as few Leavers dare speak it's true name). Dairy products ... well I suppose it would encourage me to cut down on them.

Of course there will be no queues or delays at the ports in any case.  So nothing to see here, I no doubt will be told. And so I will just add Arla Foods to the ever lengthening list _'What the ERG knows more about than the Producers and Manufacturers'_

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...oducts-may-become-luxuries-after-uk-leaves-eu

But lest we just ignore this story - from the AHDB report 

_There is also the issue of the time required for negotiating new trade deals, which could hamper industry growth
if negotiations are protracted. With limited opportunities to grow domestic markets, particularly if lack of free
movement of EU workers reduces population growth, barriers to EU exports could hit investment levels. In this
context, it is worth remembering that the largest dairy companies in the UK are foreign-owned._

Fake News - Project Fear...


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			But we agree that it broke no rules?

So, at best, the Leave campaign was stupid? At worst?
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well Cameron stated the government's position - he would not want to state and encourage the opposing viewpoint - one that he felt would be extremely damaging to the country.
		
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And you both are playing with semantics. I voted Remain too, and would rush to the polling booth again to do the same thing. Cameron took advantage of the start date and put the Remainâ€™s view out before that date knowing he was spending Â£9m of everyoneâ€™s money, not just Remainers, on the politics of the vote.

Did he break the law? No. Is he in breach of â€˜natural justice,â€™ which forms the root of British law? Absolutely! 

If you two two want to hide behind that, crack on but itâ€™s a blinkered/jaundiced view.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 18, 2018)

Nissan might jump at any time, in the EU or not. We have a good deal of Nissan news up here, as you would expect. Once a year they talk about moving production, putting new lines in elsewhere in Europe where they have plants. The govt miraculously offers them a training grant from nowhere and they announce that they will stay. It has been going on for years. The risk for them lifting and shifting is the same as it ever has been.

The govt has already stated to the auto industry that it will get special treatment in a not so secret meeting. Grants all round. I've no doubt my own company will get the same generous offer when the time comes to it, yeah, right.

Grants for multi nationals setting up have been going for years in all countries. It happens throughout the EU right now. You can dress it up in other ways but govts offer inducements for companies to set up in their own countries, rules or no rules.


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## bluewolf (Jul 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And you both are playing with semantics. I voted Remain too, and would rush to the polling booth again to do the same thing. Cameron took advantage of the start date and put the Remainâ€™s view out before that date knowing he was spending Â£9m of everyoneâ€™s money, not just Remainers, on the politics of the vote.

Did he break the law? No. Is he in breach of â€˜natural justice,â€™ which forms the root of British law? Absolutely! 

If you two two want to hide behind that, crack on but itâ€™s a blinkered/jaundiced view.
		
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I'm the very last person to defend Cameron. History will likely judge him as the worst PM to (dis)grace the office. Did the Government break election rules? I don't think they did. They may have deliberately circumvented them several months before the referendum though. 

The Leave campaign overspent in the days leading up to the referendum. Did it influence the outcome? I don't know really, but if it didn't then someone should tell the Political Parties this as they've apparently been wasting millions all these years!!!


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## PieMan (Jul 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though I must find out what WTO rules say in respect of grants (bribes).
		
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There you go - happy reading!

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/scm_e/scm_e.htm


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## MegaSteve (Jul 18, 2018)

I wish folk would make up their mind on who's 'ploy' swung the vote...
I thought it was all down to Putin's interference...
Or, was that the POTUS vote ..
Or, was it in fact neither...

What swung it for me was St Bob yelling RACISTS, down a megaphone, at ordinary working people...
Plus any number of folk saying "Lazy British workers"...


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## bluewolf (Jul 18, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			I wish folk would make up their mind on who's 'ploy' swung the vote...
I thought it was all down to Putin's interference...
Or, was that the POTUS vote ..
Or, was it in fact neither...

What swung it for me was St Bob yelling RACISTS, down a megaphone, at ordinary working people...
Plus any number of folk saying "Lazy British workers"...
		
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Have you not seen where the overspend went?


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## MegaSteve (Jul 18, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Have you not seen where the overspend went?
		
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Truthfully no... But I think you guessed that...

But I reserve getting my gunties in the proverbial twist over 'stuff' like 'us' having to pick up the BHS pension shortfall whilst [Sir] Phil gets to sail the Med on his superyacht... Marvellous example of wealth creator he turned out to be...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And you both are playing with semantics. I voted Remain too, and would rush to the polling booth again to do the same thing. Cameron took advantage of the start date and put the Remainâ€™s view out before that date knowing he was spending Â£9m of everyoneâ€™s money, not just Remainers, on the politics of the vote.

Did he break the law? No. Is he in breach of â€˜natural justice,â€™ which forms the root of British law? Absolutely! 

If you two two want to hide behind that, crack on but itâ€™s a blinkered/jaundiced view.
		
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I would agree with you on this but how on earth could the government put forward the alternative case when it didn't believe it (ooops - now where am I hearing that _these _days   ) and indeed thought it would be disastrous for the UK economy.  Is the governments job not to do what it considers best for the UK?  Would the government making the Leave case not be a bit like the Directors of a PLC doing things that they believe would be detrimental to shareholder value - like accepting a take-over bid that, in their best estimation and analysis,  and given the advice of all their advisors and the market analysts, would be damaging to the company.   They are simply not allowed to do that.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Furious tirade from Anna Soubry at Jacob Rees-Mogg yesterday in the HoC - and she was absolutely spot on.  That guy and the rest of his  ERG cronies seem hell-bent on getting the UK out of the EU regardless of the economic or social damage that will result (see also John Major - someone who might know a fair bit about Euroscepticism; the EU and such things) - and damage there will inevitably be.

Even if absolutely nothing else - *on leaving the EU the UK will lose the economic and social benefits of the free-trade deal the EU yesterday struck with Japan.*  Whether the UK over time will strike a trade deal with Japan more beneficial to us than that struck yesterday who knows - but whatever the deal might be, that deal is going to take some time to agree and so meanwhile we will be worse off in our trade with Japan.
		
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Why will we; if we now enjoy the tariff free trade deal negotiated by the EU why can we not agree with Japan to keep that when we leave the EU?


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## bluewolf (Jul 18, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Truthfully no... But I think you guessed that...

But I reserve getting my gunties in the proverbial twist over 'stuff' like 'us' having to pick up the BHS pension shortfall whilst [Sir] Phil gets to sail the Med on his superyacht... Marvellous example of wealth creator he turned out to be...
		
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I have enough disgust to go around &#128077;


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## Dando (Jul 18, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Why will we; if we now enjoy the tariff free trade deal negotiated by the EU why can we not agree with Japan to keep that when we leave the EU?
		
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because he said so and it suits his doom and gloom outlook.


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I would agree with you on this but how on earth could the government put forward the alternative case when it didn't believe it (ooops - now where am I hearing that _these _days   ) and indeed thought it would be disastrous for the UK economy.  Is the governments job not to do what it considers best for the UK?  Would the government making the Leave case not be a bit like the Directors of a PLC doing things that they believe would be detrimental to shareholder value - like accepting a take-over bid that, in their best estimation and analysis,  and given the advice of all their advisors and the market analysts, would be damaging to the company.   They are simply not allowed to do that.
		
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I would expect the govt to put forward a case as they see fit. But my argument, which you seem to have missed, is the timing of the govtâ€™s case. Cameron authorised the spending of Â£9m before the start date of campaigning.  

He didnâ€™t break the law but by hell he bent it to some tune.


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## NWJocko (Jul 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I would agree with you on this but how on earth could the government put forward the alternative case when it didn't believe it (ooops - now where am I hearing that _these _days   ) and indeed thought it would be disastrous for the UK economy.  Is the governments job not to do what it considers best for the UK?  *Would the government making the Leave case not be a bit like the Directors of a PLC doing things that they believe would be detrimental to shareholder value - like accepting a take-over bid that, in their best estimation and analysis,  and given the advice of all their advisors and the market analysts, would be damaging to the company.*   They are simply not allowed to do that.
		
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No, it would be absolutely nothing like that :thup:


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## Old Skier (Jul 19, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Why will we; if we now enjoy the tariff free trade deal negotiated by the EU why can we not agree with Japan to keep that when we leave the EU?
		
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Stop making sense.  We could do the same with other agreements already in place or change them as we and the other parties see fit but they are great obstacles for Parliament and remainers to put in the way and say its all to difficult lets just stay.  The way of many in this country these days - taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them.


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## bluewolf (Jul 19, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Stop making sense.  We could do the same with other agreements already in place or change them as we and the other parties see fit but they are great obstacles for Parliament and remainers to put in the way and say its all to difficult lets just stay.  The way of many in this country these days - taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them.
		
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So you're saying that Remainers are cowards now are you?


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## Old Skier (Jul 19, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			So you're saying that Remainers are cowards now are you?
		
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Not sure where you even see that but if it suits your agenda crack on.


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## bluewolf (Jul 19, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure where you even see that but if it suits your agenda crack on.
		
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I see it in the words you have written. It's quite clear. Thanks for allowing me to crack on though &#128077;&#128077;

Edit.. I'll enlighten...

Remainers think that these obstacles are too big to overcome. 

This country is full of people who take the easy option once it gets difficult. 

Therefore, Remainers are people who want to take the easy option now that it's got difficult.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Stop making sense.  We could do the same with other agreements already in place or change them as we and the other parties see fit but they are great obstacles for Parliament and remainers to put in the way and say its all to difficult lets just stay.  The way of many in this country these days - taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them.
		
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Good words of wisdom for me to remember there when I have a choice at work of earning pretty much the same amount of money and pretty much the same benefits in two different ways.  So what'll I choose - the hard and painful way - trying to work out how to do things as I go along - or the relatively straightforward way doing things the way as they've been set out for years?

You know what - maybe I'll just choose the latter...what a coward am I for not putting myself through the wringer...


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## Old Skier (Jul 19, 2018)

If the pair of you would like to point out where I said coward please feel free.

Or is it to difficult.


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## Hobbit (Jul 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good words of wisdom for me to remember there when I have a choice at work of earning pretty much the same amount of money and pretty much the same benefits in two different ways.  So what'll I choose - the hard and painful way - trying to work out how to do things as I go along - or the relatively straightforward way doing things the way as they've been set out for years?

You know what - maybe I'll just choose the latter...what a coward am I for not putting myself through the wringer...
		
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And in October 2015, when I had the chance to retire quite comfortably, all the plans were in place and my â€˜noticeâ€™ was in, I chose to sell up and move to Aberdeen. A failing division in a struggling industry. 

Long hours and oodles of stress. Difficult decisions and sackings to be made. Not pleasant at times but hugely fulfilling when the business was well in profit, structured and dynamic when I handed over the reins.

Both yours and my analogy are weak and have little bearing on what the UK can or canâ€™t achieve. But everything in life can be achieved if you have the balls for it. Some people donâ€™t, and will forever achieve mediocrity.


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## bluewolf (Jul 19, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			If the pair of you would like to point out where I said coward please feel free.

Or is it to difficult.
		
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Of course, you are correct. You didn't use the word "coward". Now then, does that make you feel better. 

You used the term "taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them". 

So please explain what that means if it's not too difficult.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And in October 2015, when I had the chance to retire quite comfortably, all the plans were in place and my â€˜noticeâ€™ was in, I chose to sell up and move to Aberdeen. A failing division in a struggling industry. 

Long hours and oodles of stress. Difficult decisions and sackings to be made. Not pleasant at times but hugely fulfilling when the business was well in profit, structured and dynamic when I handed over the reins.

Both yours and my analogy are weak and have little bearing on what the UK can or canâ€™t achieve. But everything in life can be achieved if you have the balls for it. Some people donâ€™t, and will forever achieve mediocrity.
		
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Fair enough - and so we have JR-M, Johnson, the ERG et al who would have us choose the hard way that _might_ see the UK in a better place in the end.  But in the hard struggle there will be to get to their promised lands, these Generals will be on their horses high on a hill, safe and sound watching the infantry battle, get killed and injured - for the sake of what might be and what they wished to achieve.

So in all your struggles making the business better you know how painful that was - and your decisions were difficult and painful for you I have no doubt - but perhaps not as difficult and painful as the lives of those who were sacked on the way.

And I for one cannot agree with a vision that _might _in some current unquantifiable way result in a better situation for the UK than we have today - as there is a high probability that many ordinary people will suffer badly along that way.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Of course, you are correct. You didn't use the word "coward". Now then, does that make you feel better. 

You used the term "taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them". 

So please explain what that means if it's not too difficult.
		
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I would suggest he was referring to some people preferring to take the option of least resistance rather than  looking for opportunities that may be difficult to apply in the short term but have the chance to produce enhanced rewards with an entrepreneurial  spirit.  This is nothing to do with cowardice but  attitude to risk.   'Per ardua ad astra'


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## bluewolf (Jul 20, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I would suggest he was referring to some people preferring to take the option of least resistance rather than  looking for opportunities that may be difficult to apply in the short term but have the chance to produce enhanced rewards with an entrepreneurial  spirit.  This is nothing to do with cowardice but  attitude to risk.   'Per ardua ad astra'
		
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That's a lovely answer. It's not actually what he said, but it's lovely &#128077;

Your answer is lovely and specific, relating to a particular process. OS's statement was quite a lot more vague and dismissive. He stated "The way of many in this Country these days - taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them."

The use of "these days" is interesting too. He seems to be saying that it wasn't the case in other times. Almost as though he's one of those people who looks back fondly on the past and thinks it was better. I'd be interested in what he thinks was better about those days. 

Of course, we could be over analysing a statement that was just very poorly worded &#128077;&#128077;


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## Hobbit (Jul 20, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fair enough - and so we have JR-M, Johnson, the ERG et al who would have us choose the hard way that _might_ see the UK in a better place in the end.  But in the hard struggle there will be to get to their promised lands, these Generals will be on their horses high on a hill, safe and sound watching the infantry battle, get killed and injured - for the sake of what might be and what they wished to achieve.

So in all your struggles making the business better you know how painful that was - and your decisions were difficult and painful for you I have no doubt - but perhaps not as difficult and painful as the lives of those who were sacked on the way.

And I for one cannot agree with a vision that _might _in some current unquantifiable way result in a better situation for the UK than we have today - as there is a high probability that many ordinary people will suffer badly along that way.
		
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In other words you want to stifle the ambitions expressed by the majority of the voters. They have the courage you donâ€™t have. You, as part of the minority, seek to rule the majority because you (arrogantly) feel they didnâ€™t make the right choice.


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## drdel (Jul 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			That's a lovely answer. It's not actually what he said, but it's lovely &#128077;

Your answer is lovely and specific, relating to a particular process. OS's statement was quite a lot more vague and dismissive. He stated "The way of many in this Country these days - taking an easy option when the going gets too tough for them."

The use of "these days" is interesting too. He seems to be saying that it wasn't the case in other times. Almost as though he's one of those people who looks back fondly on the past and thinks it was better. I'd be interested in what he thinks was better about those days. 

*Of course, we could be over analysing a statement that was just very poorly worded *&#128077;&#128077;
		
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Good grief. I thought this was the First Rule of the forum !!


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## bluewolf (Jul 20, 2018)

drdel said:



			Good grief. I thought this was the First Rule of the forum !!
		
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It passes a few hours whilst I'm in full "Heading to Cornwall" mode. Beats work (which is what I'm supposed to be doing) &#128521;


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## hors limite (Jul 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			In other words you want to stifle the ambitions expressed by the majority of the voters. They have the courage you donâ€™t have. You, as part of the minority, seek to rule the majority because you (arrogantly) feel they didnâ€™t make the right choice.
		
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Picture Polling Stations the length and breadth of the country with leavers stiffening their upper lips muttering bravely " per ardua ad astra". Brexit has really driven people bonkers. I have heard every unlikely reason for voting leave but this nonsense has never featured - other spherical objects like taking back control and "sovereignty" but not this.
I have asked questions about trade, tariffs, inward investment and the rest and these questions are conveniently ignored. The leavers on this forum are more interested in deflecting the real questions and drifting off into the most convoluted arguments about process. My last post provoked a response that told me that "Brexit is not just about being economically better off". That is wrong, leavers didn't vote leave to be worse off. Many people in the UK have seen living standards stagnate and for some decline. Austerity continues. I think it was an adviser to Clinton who told us " It's the economy stupid".
I could give you many quotes from the architects of leave but in the interests of brevity - Liam Fox -"The free trade deal with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history".
I'd like to see an opinion poll on whether people would be prepared to risk their jobs or see their living standards decline in exchange for an ideologically hard Brexit.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 20, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I could give you many quotes from the architects of leave but in the interests of brevity - Liam Fox -*"The free trade deal with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history".*
I'd like to see an opinion poll on whether people would be prepared to risk their jobs or see their living standards decline in exchange for an ideologically hard Brexit.
		
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That's true, it should be. We want to continue selling to them and they want to continue selling to us. The IMF have produced a report saying that a hard Brexit would hit the EU economy hard and reduce growth by 1.5% with Ireland suffering particularly badly with a 4% drop. Also that countries such as Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark face being hit harder than Finland or Italy due to the amount of trade between the countries. It wasn't mentioned in the report, as it was focused on the EU, but I would assume that the UK economy would also take a pretty big hit to growth from a hard Brexit. Therefore to avoid damaging the economies of all EU countries and the UK the free trade deal should be easy to agree. Unless the EU decide to cut off their nose to spite their face and punish the UK for daring to leave. The EU and Japan have just agreed one that doesn't include freedom of movement so why should it be different for the UK just because we voted not to be a member of their club any more?


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## bluewolf (Jul 20, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's true, it should be. We want to continue selling to them and they want to continue selling to us. The IMF have produced a report saying that a hard Brexit would hit the EU economy hard and reduce growth by 1.5% with Ireland suffering particularly badly with a 4% drop. Also that countries such as Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark face being hit harder than Finland or Italy due to the amount of trade between the countries. It wasn't mentioned in the report, as it was focused on the EU, but I would assume that the UK economy would also take a pretty big hit to growth from a hard Brexit. Therefore to avoid damaging the economies of all EU countries and the UK the free trade deal should be easy to agree. Unless the EU decide to cut off their nose to spite their face and punish the UK for daring to leave. The EU and Japan have just agreed one that doesn't include freedom of movement so why should it be different for the UK just because we voted not to be a member of their club any more?
		
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If I was negotiating a trade deal I'd be looking to take advantage of the fact that the biggest hit by far will be felt by the UK.


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## jp5 (Jul 20, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			The EU and Japan have just agreed one that doesn't include freedom of movement so why should it be different for the UK just because we voted not to be a member of their club any more?
		
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We could have one just like the Japan deal. The issue is it wouldn't cover 80% of our economy and it would require significant new customs infrastructure which the UK Gvmnt seems unwilling to put in place. Ultimately what sort of Brexit we have will depend on the Irish border situation - two years on and there still seems to be no acceptable solution to anyone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			In other words you want to stifle the ambitions expressed by the majority of the voters. They have the courage you donâ€™t have. You, as part of the minority, seek to rule the majority because you (arrogantly) feel they didnâ€™t make the right choice.
		
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The foot soldier believed the politicians when they were told why we must fight.  The politicians and generals decided what they must achieve - and on the battlefield the generals decided that the 500yds of land was worth fighting over; the foot soldier believed them and, in their belief and conviction that what they were doing was right and was what was necessary, they did what they were told - stoically accepting whatever fate awaited and proud of their part.  And the Generals stood by and watched as the foot soldiers struggled and battled their way across the land to achieve what the politicians and generals wanted.  Many, many foot soldiers died and were injured - but few politicians and generals followed them to their graves and into their disabilities.  And for what?  To satisfy the wishes of politicians and the warped strategies of the generals to no real end.

And so to today - we have the likes of Johnson, Gove and the ERG, and we have the Leave voting great British public.  And the old adage of Lions led by Donkeys seems to me somewhat horribly apt.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



View attachment 25269


If I was negotiating a trade deal I'd be looking to take advantage of the fact that the biggest hit by far will be felt by the UK.
		
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So would I, but it's a question of how far you are prepared to push. The Germans, Dutch, Belgians and Irish etc might be a little miffed if by looking to take advantage it led to significant hit to their economies if there was a No Deal outcome.


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## bluewolf (Jul 20, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			So would I, but it's a question of how far you are prepared to push. The Germans, Dutch, Belgians and Irish etc might be a little miffed if by looking to take advantage it led to significant hit to their economies if there was a No Deal outcome.
		
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I find your answer really interesting. It's the first time (I think) that I've read a post by a committed Leaver that recognises that the EU is in a slightly stronger bargaining position than the UK. 

What worries me is that we are now reliant on the actions of others. If the EU decides to play hard ball then we would lose significantly more than they do. Yes, they would be punishing themselves, but we'd have an economy in the toilet. If that did happen then we would undoubtedly lose most of our financial sector to Europe. 

All speculation obviously, and I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell me that I'm wrong/a coward/unable to speak Latin etc &#128514;


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## SocketRocket (Jul 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I find your answer really interesting. It's the first time (I think) that I've read a post by a committed Leaver that recognises that the EU is in a slightly stronger bargaining position than the UK. 

What worries me is that we are now reliant on the actions of others. If the EU decides to play hard ball then we would lose significantly more than they do. Yes, they would be punishing themselves, but we'd have an economy in the toilet. If that did happen then we would undoubtedly lose most of our financial sector to Europe. 

All speculation obviously, and I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell me that I'm wrong/a coward/unable to speak Latin etc &#128514;
		
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You are wrong but I put that down to your modus operandi, Et Al
.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I find your answer really interesting. It's the first time (I think) that I've read a post by a committed Leaver that recognises that the EU is in a slightly stronger bargaining position than the UK. 

What worries me is that we are now reliant on the actions of others. If the EU decides to play hard ball then we would lose significantly more than they do. Yes, they would be punishing themselves, but we'd have an economy in the toilet. If that did happen then we would undoubtedly lose most of our financial sector to Europe. 

All speculation obviously, and I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell me that I'm wrong/a coward/unable to speak Latin etc &#62978;
		
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You are wrong about one major part of your post. I didn't vote in the referendum due to work taking me away 2 days before the vote but I would have voted remain. I am far from a committed Leaver and would far prefer to remain in the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2018)

Seems like Theresa May is telling the EU that there cannot be a solution to the NI/EU border solution unless the EU is more flexible...conveniently seeming to forget that she has set out the constraint that has led to the impasse.  The EU's constitutionally immovable Red Lines were known *before *May set out her Red Line on the Customs Union.  It was only when she drew that Red Line did the issue become insoluble.  If she had *not *drawn that red Line then there would have been an easy answer.  

Mrs May was guilty of the mostest wishful thinking or of deceiving the electorate (well certainly many on the Leave side of the argument) when she suggested that a solution could be found with her RL in place - knowing full well that the EU would not / could not budge.  No good pretending that the issue is the EU's fault and that the EU should break one of it's fundamental principles to accommodate an unnecessary UK constraint.


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## hors limite (Jul 20, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's true, it should be. We want to continue selling to them and they want to continue selling to us. The IMF have produced a report saying that a hard Brexit would hit the EU economy hard and reduce growth by 1.5% with Ireland suffering particularly badly with a 4% drop. Also that countries such as Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark face being hit harder than Finland or Italy due to the amount of trade between the countries. It wasn't mentioned in the report, as it was focused on the EU, but I would assume that the UK economy would also take a pretty big hit to growth from a hard Brexit. Therefore to avoid damaging the economies of all EU countries and the UK the free trade deal should be easy to agree. Unless the EU decide to cut off their nose to spite their face and punish the UK for daring to leave. The EU and Japan have just agreed one that doesn't include freedom of movement so why should it be different for the UK just because we voted not to be a member of their club any more?
		
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If I may paraphrase your first sentence, you think that a EU trade deal should be easy. The trouble is that this ignores the political realities. The EU is dead set against separating the four freedoms - goods, capital, services and labour. As things stand they are the rules. If you leave, you don't get to enjoy the benefits. I sympathise with the comparison you make with the new Japan deal but since when has politics been logical?


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## bluewolf (Jul 20, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			You are wrong about one major part of your post. I didn't vote in the referendum due to work taking me away 2 days before the vote but I would have voted remain. I am far from a committed Leaver and would far prefer to remain in the EU.
		
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Damn!!! Back to the beginning again


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## bluewolf (Jul 20, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You are wrong but I put that down to your modus operandi, Et Al
.
		
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Explain how we are in a stronger position please.


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## drdel (Jul 20, 2018)

Barnier has said he doesn't trust  the UK to collected taxes for the EU so has rejected latest May proposition. 

Anybody who has read Varoufakis's book will  see his predictions are being played out.


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## Hobbit (Jul 20, 2018)

drdel said:



			Barnier has said he doesn't trust  the UK to collected taxes for the EU so has rejected latest May proposition. 

Anybody who has read Varoufakis's book will  see his predictions are being played out.
		
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Barnier has also said its essential that the UK is part of the law/security group. 3 weeks ago he was saying the UK will be excluded from this group.

Tomorrow the wind will be from the west, and Dorothy will be hit by a house in Kansas. You just can't make this rubbish up.


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## bluewolf (Jul 20, 2018)

It's almost as though the EU negotiators have a plan in place to frustrate the negotiations for as long as possible. Like they know we aren't in a strong position and, despite what we keep being told, we have no real tangible plan and no real cohesive structure. 

It's utterly frustrating. Almost like when your football team is losing and the opposition are just playing with the ball and feigning cramps.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 21, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			It's almost as though the EU negotiators have a plan in place to frustrate the negotiations for as long as possible. Like they know we aren't in a strong position and, despite what we keep being told, we have no real tangible plan and no real cohesive structure. 

It's utterly frustrating. Almost like when your football team is losing and the opposition are just playing with the ball and feigning cramps.
		
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Aye- but if they are not that good and sure of their ability to hold on to the ball, and know that you are the better team - and you are good at harrying - then they will eventually lose control and you'll regain possession, score and win the game.

Is the UK the better team?  Are the EU rubbish and faking it?


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## PNWokingham (Jul 21, 2018)

this sums it up nicely. We have gone as far politically as possible and not even sure this will work as both sides hate it but may just about accept it. Time to reinforce this message with Brussels and make clear that we cannot go further and now absolutely will walk away and focus all energies on a hard exit. Before this happens, in my opinion, the government needs to issue tens of billions in medium- and long-term gilts to specifically put into a "UK Future" fund that can help in all areas of the economy in a development bank fashion, along with significant tax breaks in major manufacturing industries for a, say, fixed 10yr period to help compensate for trade tariffs and encourage the businesses to stay 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...uge-gamble-will-surrender-keeps-pushing-dont/


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## SocketRocket (Jul 21, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Explain how we are in a stronger position please.
		
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Strength of position is a rather complex consideration and subjective. no, I didn't suggest you were wrong on that point, it was rather your suggestion that the UK economy would be in the toilet
 I consider it to be strong enough to  survive and even prosper if/when it  moves on from the current storm in a teacup.  I remain semper fidelis to our potential.


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## Hobbit (Jul 21, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aye- but if they are not that good and sure of their ability to hold on to the ball, and know that you are the better team - and you are good at harrying - then they will eventually lose control and you'll regain possession, score and win the game.

Is the UK the better team?  Are the EU rubbish and faking it?
		
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The EU are faking it. Time and again they move the goal posts. We agree something, they then ask for more. They say we canâ€™t have a security deal, we remind them how many European arrest warrants weâ€™ve enacted on their behalf, and Barnier now says itâ€™s essential that the UK are part of the EU security deal.

Iâ€™ve twice walked away from a multi-million pound deal because of the way the other party has behaved, and twice theyâ€™ve asked to reopen negotiations. The EU need the Â£9bn desperately, let alone all the businesses that need the UK market. 

Its time they they were told to get stuffed.


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## bluewolf (Jul 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Strength of position is a rather complex consideration and subjective. no, I didn't suggest you were wrong on that point, it was rather your suggestion that the UK economy would be in the toilet
 I consider it to be strong enough to  survive and even prosper if/when it  moves on from the current storm in a teacup.  I remain semper fidelis to our potential.
		
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Hobbit said:



			The EU are faking it. Time and again they move the goal posts. We agree something, they then ask for more. They say we canâ€™t have a security deal, we remind them how many European arrest warrants weâ€™ve enacted on their behalf, and Barnier now says itâ€™s essential that the UK are part of the EU security deal.

Iâ€™ve twice walked away from a multi-million pound deal because of the way the other party has behaved, and twice theyâ€™ve asked to reopen negotiations. The EU need the Â£9bn desperately, let alone all the businesses that need the UK market. 

Its time they they were told to get stuffed.
		
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Ok. To simplify things. 

If you two were going into this negotiation. Just a simple 1 session negotiation meeting. No nationalistic pride. It's not the UK vs the EU. It's one company vs another. Which side would you prefer to be on?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 21, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The EU are faking it. Time and again they move the goal posts. We agree something, they then ask for more. They say we canâ€™t have a security deal, we remind them how many European arrest warrants weâ€™ve enacted on their behalf, and Barnier now says itâ€™s essential that the UK are part of the EU security deal.

Iâ€™ve twice walked away from a multi-million pound deal because of the way the other party has behaved, and twice theyâ€™ve asked to reopen negotiations. The EU need the Â£9bn desperately, let alone all the businesses that need the UK market. 

Its time they they were told to get stuffed.
		
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Walking away from multi-million pound deals in business is fine and dandy if your business remain just 'as-is' and it remains business as usual.  But that is not the situation with the EU.  Were we to walk away we are 100% NOT back to 'as-s' and business as usual.  In fact we are in a brand new situation - a completely new business environment, if you like.  One which we have NEVER experienced before as the world of business today is light years away from what it was back in the 1970s.  And we we try to come up with a new business model to sustain us whilst we evolve wqe are in a pretty perilous situation becomes of the number of unknowns.

I hear and read many (here and elsewhere) compare _Walking away from Europe with No Deal_, as being similar to walking away from a business deal.  I just don't get the comparison and similarity suggested; unless, that is, your business _needs _the deal, and without it your business is going to struggle and could indeed fail.  That way I can see a similarity - but I don't think that that is the similarity in mind.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 21, 2018)

From 40+ years I've noted the EU are great at taking but not so good in giving anything back in return...


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## Hobbit (Jul 21, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Ok. To simplify things. 

If you two were going into this negotiation. Just a simple 1 session negotiation meeting. No nationalistic pride. It's not the UK vs the EU. It's one company vs another. Which side would you prefer to be on?
		
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Its a negotiation with no winners, only a mitigation of the consequences of Leave. Both sides will have (and I hate the term) red lines. And both sides will accept concessions on those red lines if there's a give elsewhere on another red line.

I'd be quite happy negotiating for the UK, and I'm sure others would be happy negotiating for the EU.

What does the UK have that the EU desperately need? 1) An amount of money that mitigates an impending Â£9bn black hole in their budget. That's Â£9bn in one year, ad growing in subsequent years. And that's Â£9bn that the receiving countries have said they won't back away from demanding, as they've set their internal budgets based on that. And the contributing countries have said they won't increase their contributions to cover it. 2) EU export market in  the UK. Some of the more robust European economies will cope reasonably well but the smaller ones won't. That means the bigger ones will have to contribute to the smaller countries, but they've already said they won't cover the Â£9bn and covering even more will hurt even more. 3) The EU is stuck in a 27 country council that has to try and be dynamic in looking attractive to new markets. It will have to look at a whole host of tariff structures and agreements, both from the EU wide perspective and individual markets/industries. The UK will almost certainly gain massively in its ability to restructure tariffs and internal subsidies. And it will be able to match Ireland's Corporation Tax structure, which the EU have been very unhappy about - drop Corporation Tax and you've mitigated tariffs the EU will almost certainly impose, and made it either comfortable to stay in the UK, and export to the EU or, as Ireland has done, make it attractive to new industries from outside the EU.

Some of the EU economies are very fragile, not yet out of recession, and some are only just out of recession. Its a house of cards akin to the subprime lending in the USA. I know where I'd rather be.

But how robust is the UK, if the EU says get stuffed. The projection is a 1.5% drop. In some EU countries its a 4% drop. The UK, as a leading economy, will be able to cope far better than the EU, but that doesn't mean they will cope well. People continue to look at it from a country perspective, which is right from a tax revenue perspective, but very few look at how it will affect individual industries. 

To answer your question, I'd prefer to be in the UK in this negotiation.


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## Hobbit (Jul 21, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Walking away from multi-million pound deals in business is fine and dandy if your business remain just 'as-is' and it remains business as usual.  But that is not the situation with the EU.  Were we to walk away we are 100% NOT back to 'as-s' and business as usual.  In fact we are in a brand new situation - a completely new business environment, if you like.  One which we have NEVER experienced before as the world of business today is light years away from what it was back in the 1970s.  And we we try to come up with a new business model to sustain us whilst we evolve wqe are in a pretty perilous situation becomes of the number of unknowns.

I hear and read many (here and elsewhere) compare _Walking away from Europe with No Deal_, as being similar to walking away from a business deal.  I just don't get the comparison and similarity suggested; unless, that is, your business _needs _the deal, and without it your business is going to struggle and could indeed fail.  That way I can see a similarity - but I don't think that that is the similarity in mind.
		
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Walking away from deals in business is ok coz you can stay as is. Mmm, selling that one to share holders will not wash at all. Unlike a politician, if you think you can get away with as is you better update your CV.

Coming up with new business models - why? You have a product and a pricing structure. You have customers that want those products but you now have tariffs and regs in the way. Thankfully you also have govt that wants/needs you to be successful, and through tariffs and subsidies(that all of a sudden its allowed to give) you are receiving support you didn't have before.

You are seeing mountains when there are only large hills that someone is busy building a railway to the top of. It won't be utopia but it won't be anything like as bad as you just want to believe it will be.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 21, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Walking away from deals in business is ok coz you can stay as is. Mmm, selling that one to share holders will not wash at all. Unlike a politician, if you think you can get away with as is you better update your CV.

Coming up with new business models - why? You have a product and a pricing structure. You have customers that want those products but you now have tariffs and regs in the way. Thankfully you also have govt that wants/needs you to be successful, and through tariffs and subsidies(that all of a sudden its allowed to give) you are receiving support you didn't have before.

You are seeing mountains when there are only large hills that someone is busy building a railway to the top of. It won't be utopia but it won't be anything like as bad as you just want to believe it will be.
		
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I don't WANT it to be bad.  I have no time for charlatans and snake-oil salesmen who seem to have such a dislike of the EU that they refuse to accept any concerns about the future and simply want the UK out no matter what.  They have been doing a marvellous job selling the idea that a No Deal was actually what the Leave voters voted for - when in fact the votes voted to leave the EU - and that leaving without a deal will be just fine - and the concerns of business - especially around no transition were there no deal - are just Project Fear and business just looking for what suits business.  Pity that what best suits business probably best suits their employees and the country.  If it was all going to be so great I can't imagine why business would not be cheering No Dealers on.

The Leave voters voted to leave the EU - and that we are currently doing. 

But I do not recall much discussion at all about not re-engaging with the EU after we had left.  The electorate DID NOT vote to leave and not re-engage - they voted to leave the EU and I suspect most expected some form of re-engagement.  But the snake-oil salesmen have convinced a large part of the electorate with their weasel words.  And that is - in my opinion - disgraceful, and May is right to be standing up to these charlatans, chancers and ideologues.


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## Hobbit (Jul 21, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But I do not recall much discussion at all about not re-engaging with the EU after we had left.  The electorate DID NOT vote to leave and not re-engage - they voted to leave the EU and I suspect most expected some form of re-engagement.  But the snake-oil salesmen have convinced a large part of the electorate with their weasel words.  And that is - in my opinion - disgraceful, and May is right to be standing up to these charlatans, chancers and ideologues.
		
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I seem to remember lots of discussions about continued trade, tariffs,  free ports, Norway deals, Canada deals.

I havenâ€™t come across any Leaver that voted with their eyes closed. The snake oil salesmen have used what words, have convinced them of what? 

As as for the charlatans etc, all I see are politicians standing up for what they believe, and in some cases having more courage than May when it comes to telling the EU to negotiate in good faith.

Your interpretation is a bit extreme to say the least. The sky isnâ€™t going to fall down.


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## Old Skier (Jul 21, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Barnier has also said its essential that the UK is part of the law/security group. 3 weeks ago he was saying the UK will be excluded from this group.
		
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Hes sobered up since then  and remembered that the largest intelligence gathering facility in Europe is in ------- the U.K.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 21, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Ok. To simplify things. 

If you two were going into this negotiation. Just a simple 1 session negotiation meeting. No nationalistic pride. It's not the UK vs the EU. It's one company vs another. Which side would you prefer to be on?
		
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Mine 

I would prefer to be negotiating for the side that was breaking away from a group that was squeezing it dry and imposing protectionist rules that were stifling them from trading freely.


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## Hobbit (Jul 21, 2018)

Barnier just gets worse. After saying that to continue trade with the EU the UK must adopt common rules and practices. Now heâ€™s saying it isnâ€™t practical.

Goal posts moved yet again.


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## Dando (Jul 22, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Barnier just gets worse. After saying that to continue trade with the EU the UK must adopt common rules and practices. Now heâ€™s saying it isnâ€™t practical.

Goal posts moved yet again.
		
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Iâ€™m sure a certain someone will be along soon to say itâ€™s the UKâ€™s fault and not the EUâ€™s


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 22, 2018)

I see some rent a mouth London Labour MP is calling for people to vote in a second referendum [EU naturally]

Makes you wonder who/what voted in the first one.


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## Old Skier (Jul 22, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see some rent a mouth London Labour MP is calling for people to vote in a second referendum [EU naturally]

Makes you wonder who/what voted in the first one.
		
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No self respecting real politician would ask for a second referendum after the public have voted.  Oh, hang on, perhaps the MP is closet SNP.


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## bluewolf (Jul 23, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Mine 

I would prefer to be negotiating for the side that was breaking away from a group that was squeezing it dry and imposing protectionist rules that were stifling them from trading freely.
		
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I suspect that we're about to see how strong our negotiating position is. Once the German elections are out of the way, May will be negotiating our terms. If you're right then there should be a favourable outcome (fingers crossed). If you're wrong then I predict May will stage a "storm out" of the negotiations, leaving us no option but WTO rules. The Tories will then absolve themselves of all blame and claim EU intransigence.


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## Sweep (Jul 23, 2018)

All negotiations the EU are involved in always go down to the wire and sometimes go beyond their arbitrary deadline. We should not expect these negotiations to be resolved until the last minute at the earliest.


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## drdel (Jul 23, 2018)

I don't understand the fear of WTO rules.  

About 80% of our trade is under WTO with RoW and some of our trade with EU would be at better terms than currently imposed !!


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## Hobbit (Jul 23, 2018)

drdel said:



			I don't understand the fear of WTO rules.  

About 80% of our trade is under WTO with RoW and some of our trade with EU would be at better terms than currently imposed !!
		
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Totally agree.

*98% of global trade is done under wto rules. 20 countries are currently joining the 160 countries who trade under wto rules.

As a trading organisation it is 6xtimes larger than the EU.

The UK is already a member of the wto, and contributes just over Â£7m towards an operating budget of Â£195m.
*


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## bluewolf (Jul 23, 2018)

drdel said:



			I don't understand the fear of WTO rules.  

About 80% of our trade is under WTO with RoW and some of our trade with EU would be at better terms than currently imposed !!
		
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http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128

Very very few countries in the World trade solely under WTO rules. Why is that?


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## IanM (Jul 23, 2018)

bluewolf said:



http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128

Very very few countries in the World trade solely under WTO rules. Why is that?
		
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They are either members of other associations or have individual agreements in place with the other country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2018)

And so - a poll in the Sunday Times suggests that about a quarter of the electorate would vote for an Anti-immigration. Anti-Islam party.  Well I may be wrong - but I suspect that most of that constituency would have voted Leave - and so that's just under half of the Leave vote would support a party that had, some might suggest, a slightly racist grounding.  Well I never - who'd have thunk that....

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-far-right-boris-johnson-and-remain-sh5n8vchq


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I seem to remember lots of discussions about continued trade, tariffs,  free ports, Norway deals, Canada deals.

I havenâ€™t come across any Leaver that voted with their eyes closed. The snake oil salesmen have used what words, have convinced them of what? 

As as for the charlatans etc, all I see are politicians standing up for what they believe, and in some cases having more courage than May when it comes to telling the EU to negotiate in good faith.

Your interpretation is a bit extreme to say the least. The sky isnâ€™t going to fall down.
		
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Pity more than one ex-Prime Minister thinks No Deal would be catastrophic for the country and most especially those least able to withstand the hit...with a 16% fall in the GDP of the North East (sorry - I have to quote expert assessment as see no point in quoting wishful thinking)

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/brexit-leave-north-east-worst-14261127


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Barnier just gets worse. After saying that to continue trade with the EU the UK must adopt common rules and practices. Now heâ€™s saying it isnâ€™t practical.

Goal posts moved yet again.
		
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Or maybe it's just that the UK is not very good at knowing where the goal posts are and even when we do our shooting is wonky...


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## IanM (Jul 23, 2018)

Love your stuff SLH... it's like the old uncle sat in the armchair at Xmas .....last 3 items, as ever are classics

1) Leaving the EU is somehow "racist"
2) Former "staunchly pro EU Federalism" Prime Ministers saying "Brexit is Bad" is somehow a shock or informs the debate 
3) The EU is always right and the UK is always wrong stance again privides the usual ho ho moments.... Mrs May knows exactly what she is doing, maybe that's the problem! 

Keep it up!


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## Hobbit (Jul 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or maybe it's just that the UK is not very good at knowing where the goal posts are and even when we do our shooting is wonky...
		
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As as usual you totally twist whatâ€™s in front of you.

The Barnier said, not 3 weeks ago, that the UK canâ€™t be part of the EU security organisation, and now heâ€™s saying itâ€™s essential that the UK are part of that organisation. Since forever he has been saying that the UK must adopt EU regs for trade, and now heâ€™s saying the opposite.

What part of that is the UK getting it wrong? Go on, I dare you to be honest and admit that those are the things the EU have been saying, and have now done an about face on. I dare you to be honest.... truthfully I donâ€™t think you are open minded enough to admit it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2018)

IanM said:



			Love your stuff SLH... it's like the old uncle sat in the armchair at Xmas .....last 3 items, as ever are classics

1) Leaving the EU is somehow "racist"
2) Former "staunchly pro EU Federalism" Prime Ministers saying "Brexit is Bad" is somehow a shock or informs the debate 
3) The EU is always right and the UK is always wrong stance again privides the usual ho ho moments.... Mrs May knows exactly what she is doing, maybe that's the problem! 

Keep it up!
		
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1) Well that's your interpretation - it's not what I said.  I'll repeat - 24% would vote for an anti-immigration, anti-Islam party - for some these would be seen together as verging on racist basis for a political party.  I suggest that almost all of the 24% would have voted to Leave.  24% is almost half of the 52% who voted to Leave.

2) Well - I'd say their view on a _No Deal _might just hold more water than those from a guy who has made a load of money selling beer in the UK, and another who sells electronic goods.

3) The EU has stated it's position in respect of the four freedoms and what they mean from Day 1 - the UK government does not have an agreed position


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			As as usual you totally twist whatâ€™s in front of you.

The Barnier said, not 3 weeks ago, that the UK canâ€™t be part of the EU security organisation, and now heâ€™s saying itâ€™s essential that the UK are part of that organisation. Since forever he has been saying that the UK must adopt EU regs for trade, and now heâ€™s saying the opposite.

What part of that is the UK getting it wrong? Go on, I dare you to be honest and admit that those are the things the EU have been saying, and have now done an about face on. I dare you to be honest.... truthfully I donâ€™t think you are open minded enough to admit it.
		
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We can all change our mind or adjust our position during a negotiation - if that is what Barnier has done - it's called negotiation I thought


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## Hobbit (Jul 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We can all change our mind or adjust our position during a negotiation - if that is what Barnier has done - it's called negotiation I thought
		
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You just canâ€™t admit the EU are ever wrong. You blame the UK for every little thing yet when itâ€™s the UK that shifts itâ€™s position to accommodate an EU position, and the EU moves the goal posts theyâ€™re just changing their mind. How bloody unprofessional!

Iâ€™ll make it simple for you. When you declare a position in a negotiation you are also declaring your credibility. If you then backtrack you lose the trust of the party you are negotiating with.

I can can see why youâ€™ve never been in a position to negotiate anything of importance. You are clueless in the extreme. I wouldnâ€™t trust you to be a lollipop man at a school crossing.

The EU are playing with fire. They might see a Cabinet in disarray but they appear not to realise that itâ€™s not the Cabinet that decides the way forward. Itâ€™s the wider Tory party that, if anything, is becoming stronger because of the EUâ€™s intransigence.

If the EU doesnâ€™t budge it will be a no deal Brexit, and the EU will be to blame for not negotiating in good faith. The negotiating in good faith is the bit you either donâ€™t grasp or deliberately wonâ€™t accept that the EU arenâ€™t doing.


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## IanM (Jul 23, 2018)

If you go to "negotiate" with a fixed postion that you wont change, negotiation doesnt happen.

EU needs UK cash to keep it at current levels of insolvency and as the French put it "pour encourager les autres!" 

So dont expect any flexibility.  

UK PM is a Remainer.  So her position is also clear.  Stay in as far as possible and brand it as a "pragmatic approach to Brexit."


Not sure either party's position is that achievable... but historically, the EU has always won.


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## drdel (Jul 23, 2018)

I'll say again _ read Varoufakis's book. 

His predictions about negotiating with EU representatives is absolutely on the money. Their strategy is simply to ignore any suggestions by the other party and play a blame game. Anyone who has tried to negotiate a deal with a French company with have (IMO) seen the same strategy.  Barnier is just stone walling yet suggests the UK is devoid of suggestions. 

The only hope is member states apply pressure for some pragmatism and logic.

Perhaps we could send SILH to talk to Barnier - they could confuse each other while the rest of us get on with developing a future!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 23, 2018)

drdel said:



			Perhaps we could send SILH to talk to Barnier - they could confuse each other while the rest of us get on with developing a future!
		
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No need Raab C. Brexit is on the case.:lol:


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## IanM (Jul 23, 2018)

drdel said:



			The only hope is member states apply pressure for some pragmatism and logic.
		
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No chance... the other net contributers are panicking about higher subs and those with their hand outs are worried that the meal ticket is ending! 

....Junker said   - _"there can be no democratic choice against the EU hic! burp!"_   Ok, I added the last bit !


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2018)

Sounds like our new FS is not a fan of _No Deal_

He warned of "unintended geopolitical consequences" _with just Vladimir Putin "rejoicing" if there was no deal.

Mr Hunt said a no deal would be "challenging" but the UK would still "thrive economically"_

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44918262

Yes Jeremy - challenging indeed - and we'd thrive economically? - yes Jeremy - though you have to say that...


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## Foxholer (Jul 23, 2018)

drdel said:



*I'll say again _ read Varoufakis's book.* 

His predictions about negotiating with EU representatives is absolutely on the money. Their strategy is simply to ignore any suggestions by the other party and play a blame game. Anyone who has tried to negotiate a deal with a French company with have (IMO) seen the same strategy.  Barnier is just stone walling yet suggests the UK is devoid of suggestions. 

The only hope is member states apply pressure for some pragmatism and logic.

Perhaps we could send SILH to talk to Barnier - they could confuse each other while the rest of us get on with developing a future!
		
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Notwithstanding his courageous attempt, this was the, pretty much bankrupt by policy, Greek economy he was trying to rescue! Stonewalling by the EU was actually in the 'best interests' of the rest of the EU members, so quite understandable! It's recveived something around 260Billion Euros of bailout! That's 20 years of UK's contribution to the EU!

But I'm inclined to agree that EU 'negotiation' is likely to be to stonewall/obfuscate! UK negotiators should plan a policy to counter this!


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## drdel (Jul 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Notwithstanding his courageous attempt, this was the, pretty much bankrupt by policy, Greek economy he was trying to rescue! Stonewalling by the EU was actually in the 'best interests' of the rest of the EU members, so quite understandable! It's recveived something around 260Billion Euros of bailout! That's 20 years of UK's contribution to the EU!

But I'm inclined to agree that EU 'negotiation' is likely to be to stonewall/obfuscate! UK negotiators should plan a policy to counter this!
		
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I was not drawing any comparison with Greece and the UK merely his conclusions about his experience with EU's dysfunctional management and decision making processes.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sounds like our new FS is not a fan of _No Deal_

He warned of "unintended geopolitical consequences" _with just Vladimir Putin "rejoicing" if there was no deal.

Mr Hunt said a no deal would be "challenging" but the UK would still "thrive economically"_

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44918262

Yes Jeremy - challenging indeed - and we'd thrive economically? - yes Jeremy - though you have to say that...
		
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I don't believe there would ever be a 'No Deal' as such.  I can see a situation arising where there will be no agreement on trade and customs and we will leave using WTO tariffs but will negotiate many free trade agreements fairly quickly.  We will probably make agreements for EU and UK residents rights, air travel, security and others though. Negotiations will be fraught and bullish right up to the end but there will be a deal of some sorts struck at the eleventh hour.  At some point we will need to make it clear that the UK will make foreign investment very attractive through low corporation tax and business incentives, something the EU are already spooked about and IMO would try to stop with trade agreements.


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## drdel (Jul 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't believe there would ever be a 'No Deal' as such.  I can see a situation arising where there will be no agreement on trade and customs and we will leave using WTO tariffs but will negotiate many free trade agreements fairly quickly.  We will probably make agreements for EU and UK residents rights, air travel, security and others though. Negotiations will be fraught and bullish right up to the end but there will be a deal of some sorts struck at the eleventh hour.  At some point we will need to make it clear that the UK will make foreign investment very attractive through low corporation tax and business incentives, something the EU are already spooked about and IMO would try to stop with trade agreements.
		
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Which is what worries Germany and others and should not worry the UK. Even a 20% drop in EU trade will only be a 4% impact on UK GDP but for some of the EU 27 its serious. At least the UK will have RoW as a market.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You just canâ€™t admit the EU are ever wrong. You blame the UK for every little thing yet when itâ€™s the UK that shifts itâ€™s position to accommodate an EU position, and the EU moves the goal posts theyâ€™re just changing their mind. How bloody unprofessional!

Iâ€™ll make it simple for you. When you declare a position in a negotiation you are also declaring your credibility. If you then backtrack you lose the trust of the party you are negotiating with.

I can can see why youâ€™ve never been in a position to negotiate anything of importance. You are clueless in the extreme. I wouldnâ€™t trust you to be a lollipop man at a school crossing.

The EU are playing with fire. They might see a Cabinet in disarray but they appear not to realise that itâ€™s not the Cabinet that decides the way forward. Itâ€™s the wider Tory party that, if anything, is becoming stronger because of the EUâ€™s intransigence.

If the EU doesnâ€™t budge it will be a no deal Brexit, and the EU will be to blame for not negotiating in good faith. The negotiating in good faith is the bit you either donâ€™t grasp or deliberately wonâ€™t accept that the EU arenâ€™t doing.
		
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It's not a case of admitting that the EU is ever wrong.  It's simply a FACT that we knew in advance of the start of negotiations the stance that the EU would take in any matter relating to the 4 freedoms - and that the EU would negotiate to the best interests of the EU.  Where the EUs best interests aligned pretty well with those of the UK then the EU might well move to accommodate ours - but only if any move my the EU did not compromise the 4 freedoms.  Why would we be surprised if the EU  seemed to be moving the goalposts.  After all - I was told endlessly that that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU and that a No Deal would be terrible for the EU.

Besides - why should the EU trust the UK when the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Davis, Fox et al have been pulling Theresa May's strings...and now Raab is telling us that if there is No Deal on re-engaging then we may well 'renege' on the agreements on Exiting the EU - so for instance pulling the Â£39bn.


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## USER1999 (Jul 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and now Raab is telling us that if there is No Deal on re-engaging then we may well 'renege' on the agreements on Exiting the EU - so for instance pulling the Â£39bn.
		
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Because it might be in our best interest to do so.

I guess you think the EU would never play games with us, and everything they say is true?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Besides - why should the EU trust the UK when the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Davis, Fox et al have been pulling Theresa May's strings...and now Raab is telling us that if there is No Deal on re-engaging then we may well 'renege' on the agreements on Exiting the EU - so for instance pulling the Â£39bn.
		
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Didn't David Davis also have the same stance. "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" I believe was the quote. And the above shows the extreme bias you have towards the EU. When it is the EU that changes its mind or its position then you justify that by saying....

 "We can all change our mind or adjust our position during a negotiation - if that is what Barnier has done - it's called negotiation I thought"

But when it's the UK you use words like "renege" on the agreement. Why isn't it called negotiation, a change of mind or adjusting our position? You are so blinded by your hatred of the thought of leaving the EU that you have become a complete hypocrite.


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## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not a case of admitting that the EU is ever wrong.  It's simply a FACT that we knew in advance of the start of negotiations the stance that the EU would take in any matter relating to the 4 freedoms - and that the EU would negotiate to the best interests of the EU.  Where the EUs best interests aligned pretty well with those of the UK then the EU might well move to accommodate ours - but only if any move my the EU did not compromise the 4 freedoms.  Why would we be surprised if the EU  seemed to be moving the goalposts.  After all - I was told endlessly that that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU and that a No Deal would be terrible for the EU.

Besides - why should the EU trust the UK when the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Davis, Fox et al have been pulling Theresa May's strings...and now Raab is telling us that if there is No Deal on re-engaging then we may well 'renege' on the agreements on Exiting the EU - so for instance pulling the Â£39bn.
		
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Yes we knew of the 4 Freedoms, but guess what, they are already negotiating on the Freedom of movement. Both sides recognise the need for movement on this issue. And then there's the fisheries policy that the EU have said very clearly that they want nothing to change.

When it suits the EU they are more than willing to compromise their red lines, just as they did when they let in a tranche of countries from Eastern Europe. Not one singe country met the financial requirements to join. Further to that, most (then current) EU countries put restricted movement on people from those countries.

The EU doesn't have hard red lines, unless it suits them to do so. And at this moment in time it suits your argument to say "the computer said no." 

As for the list of names/MP's you've posted up; plenty of people do trust them. Just because they're not your flavour, nor mine, doesn't mean they don't represent a significant number of people. 

The Â£39bn; some of that is owed, e.g. elements of ongoing projects and pensions. But all of it? If the EU won't play ball, why should the UK? Oh, I forgot, you always side with the EU even when they play dirty.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 24, 2018)

Looks like Raab C Brexit is no longer in charge of negotiations.
That was a very short tenure.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Looks like Raab C Brexit is no longer in charge of negotiations.
That was a very short tenure.
		
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ah yes - as posted under 'May the PM' Draab is #2


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Yes we knew of the 4 Freedoms, but guess what, they are already negotiating on the Freedom of movement. Both sides recognise the need for movement on this issue. And then there's the fisheries policy that the EU have said very clearly that they want nothing to change.

*When it suits the EU they are more than willing to compromise their red lines,* just as they did when they let in a tranche of countries from Eastern Europe. Not one singe country met the financial requirements to join. Further to that, most (then current) EU countries put restricted movement on people from those countries.

The EU doesn't have hard red lines, unless it suits them to do so. And at this moment in time it suits your argument to say "the computer said no." 

As for the list of names/MP's you've posted up; plenty of people do trust them. Just because they're not your flavour, nor mine, doesn't mean they don't represent a significant number of people. 

The Â£39bn; some of that is owed, e.g. elements of ongoing projects and pensions. But all of it? If the EU won't play ball, why should the UK? Oh, I forgot, you always side with the EU even when they play dirty.
		
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Of course they will...exactly what anyone in a negotiation would do...

And as for these MPs - well I'll add Leadsom, Bone, Cash and Jenkin to that list - and those who believe everything - or even much - of what they say - then no wonder we are in a mess.

On the Â£39bn - I thought the consensus was that this figure was actually not that much more than we were obliged to fork up under agreements we have signed up to - some out to the end of a Transition period.  And so we walk away from these contractual obligations - what does that say about the UK as a trusted party in any future agreement?

Of course I see this whole shambles in a negative light - nothing I have heard in the last two years convinces me that otherwise, it remains that at best we are going to be worse off for very little benefit - at the worst - a No Deal resulting in a pretty calamitous mess, with the only benefit being some notion of having 'regained control and regained our sovereignty'.  Well that'll console all those who could well lose their jobs as they head down the road to sign on.

Listen to JR-M on Ch4 News recently avoid saying he'd resign if things looked to be going badly wrong after UK leaves the EU - the creep is happy to sacrifice your job or mine - but his own? Not on your nellie.


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## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course they will...exactly what anyone in a negotiation would do...

.
		
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I've taken the first line from your response. Its a pretty simple, straightforward sentence. Very unambiguous.

Now go and read what you posted in #291, which I quoted in #294. 

Specifically the bit I've highlighted and underlined, "_It's not a case of admitting that the EU is ever wrong. It's simply a FACT that we knew in advance of the start of negotiations the stance that the EU would take in any matter relating to the 4 freedoms - and that the EU would negotiate to the best interests of the EU. Where the EUs best interests aligned pretty well with those of the UK then the EU might well move to accommodate ours - *but only if any move my the EU did not compromise the 4 freedoms."


*You say they won't compromise the red lines, and now you are saying they will. You don't even know from one day to the next, or in this case within 4 hours, what you are saying. You've contradicted yourself in an effort to say the EU will negotiate when previously you said they won't. And how does that make your argument credible?_


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## Old Skier (Jul 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



_You say they won't compromise the red lines, and now you are saying they will. You don't even know from one day to the next, or in this case within 4 hours, what you are saying. You've contradicted yourself in an effort to say the EU will negotiate when previously you said they won't. And how does that make your argument credible?_

Click to expand...

Perhaps he's an EU negotiator. His flip flop posts certainly come from the same script.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2018)

Anyone started stockpiling food and medicine yet.
To me Raab C did not sound tooo positive with his ' make sure we will have adequate food' comment.
Remember, he is a Tory and they lie quite naturally.


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## Paperboy (Jul 25, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Remember, he is a Tory and they lie quite naturally.
		
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Name me a politician that doesn't!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2018)

Paperboy said:



			Name me a politician that doesn't!!
		
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Nelson Mandella.:lol:

I have been told by a well placed insider that Brentford Nylons will be re introducing counterpanes to celebrate a hard Brexit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Didn't David Davis also have the same stance. "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" I believe was the quote. And the above shows the extreme bias you have towards the EU. When it is the EU that changes its mind or its position then you justify that by saying....

 "We can all change our mind or adjust our position during a negotiation - if that is what Barnier has done - it's called negotiation I thought"

But when it's the UK you use words like "renege" on the agreement. Why isn't it called negotiation, a change of mind or adjusting our position? You are so blinded by your hatred of the thought of leaving the EU that you have become a complete hypocrite.
		
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I do not have an extreme bias towards the EU.  I am very anti-Brexit.  I can so no good whatsoever coming from it  - if it ever happens - since at the moment we seem to be coming down to two options - No Deal or No Brexit.  Since - and what a surprise this - whenever anyone actually tries to write down a position on Brexit - it is rubbished left, right and centre.  

And so we find No Deal - something that was for most an absolute bottom line and generally unthinkable - now becomes something to be discussed and promoted as having significant benefits.  Well they would say that wouldn't they - because it's dead easy to write down the definition of No Deal...it's a blank page - and isn't that an easy cop out.

And I'll thank you in advance for not indulging in further personal attacks.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I've taken the first line from your response. Its a pretty simple, straightforward sentence. Very unambiguous.

Now go and read what you posted in #291, which I quoted in #294. 

Specifically the bit I've highlighted and underlined, "_It's not a case of admitting that the EU is ever wrong. It's simply a FACT that we knew in advance of the start of negotiations the stance that the EU would take in any matter relating to the 4 freedoms - and that the EU would negotiate to the best interests of the EU. Where the EUs best interests aligned pretty well with those of the UK then the EU might well move to accommodate ours - *but only if any move my the EU did not compromise the 4 freedoms."


*You say they won't compromise the red lines, and now you are saying they will. You don't even know from one day to the next, or in this case within 4 hours, what you are saying. You've contradicted yourself in an effort to say the EU will negotiate when previously you said they won't. And how does that make your argument credible?_

Click to expand...

They won't unless they want to...and they won't unless it suits them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2018)

Paperboy said:



			Name me a politician that doesn't!!
		
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Name me *anyone *that doesn't?


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## Paperboy (Jul 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Name me *anyone *that doesn't?
		
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He was tarring Tories as liars more then likely correct, I made a statement of my opinion that pretty much no Politician isn't a liar.

What does that have to do about the average Joe?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2018)

Paperboy said:



			He was tarring Tories as liars more then likely correct, I made a statement of my opinion that pretty much no Politician isn't a liar.

What does that have to do about the average Joe?
		
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We are all human - human's tell fibs...why do we expect different from politicians?

As it happens I think it is a rather trite and lazy comment to say that all politicians lie - some do tell enormous porkies that are intended to (and do) deceive the electorate - others I might suggest may lie no more than you or I.


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## Slime (Jul 25, 2018)

I'd go for no deal.
Walk away and let them come to us.


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## Dando (Jul 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do not have an extreme bias towards the EU.  I am very anti-Brexit.  I can so no good whatsoever coming from it  - if it ever happens - since at the moment we seem to be coming down to two options - No Deal or No Brexit.  Since - and what a surprise this - whenever anyone actually tries to write down a position on Brexit - it is rubbished left, right and centre.  

And so we find No Deal - something that was for most an absolute bottom line and generally unthinkable - now becomes something to be discussed and promoted as having significant benefits.  Well they would say that wouldn't they - because it's dead easy to write down the definition of No Deal...it's a blank page - and isn't that an easy cop out.

And I'll thank you in advance for not indulging in further personal attacks.
		
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â€œI am very anti-Brexitâ€..... well why didnâ€™t you say before as we had no idea!

next you drop the bombshell that Nigel Farage and Donald Trump arenâ€™t on your â€œWinter Festivalâ€ card list


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 25, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Remember, he is a Tory and they lie quite naturally.
		
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Yeah, damn those Tories and their lies. Politicians from other parties would never resort to lying would they?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-44957896


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## Old Skier (Jul 25, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Remember, he is a Tory and they lie quite naturally.
		
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Must have got the idea from the SNP 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6HyUmDuPa6g


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## Stuart_C (Jul 25, 2018)

Stockpiling food and medicines in case of a no deal, whoever voted leave shouldnâ€™t be allowed access to these reserves.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 25, 2018)

Slime said:



			I'd go for no deal.
Walk away and let them come to us.






Click to expand...

What happens if they donâ€™t come to us?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			What happens if they donâ€™t come to us?
		
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They regret it.


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## Dando (Jul 26, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yeah, damn those Tories and their lies. Politicians from other parties would never resort to lying would they?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-44957896

Click to expand...

according to John McDonnell its "only speeding and telling a white lie!"

but I guess to some on here, certain people are allowed to lie


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			Stockpiling food and medicines in case of a no deal, whoever voted leave shouldnâ€™t be allowed access to these reserves.
		
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So you are suggesting we starve people and their families depending on their voting preference.  How about hanging their cats.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 26, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			So you are suggesting we starve people and their families depending on their voting preference.  How about hanging their cats.
		
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So you want your cake and you want to eat it?

When Jaguar Landrover close their uk plants which will affect the supply chain, thought to be circa 60,000 people, for those who voted remin how are those people supposed to feed their families?


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## Stuart_C (Jul 26, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			They regret it.
		
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How will they regret it??


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 26, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			So you are suggesting we starve people and their families depending on their voting preference.  How about hanging their cats.
		
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Maybe having something in place that if we hit hard times because of leaving the EU ( I see a nice trade deal with the US happening ) and we get to the stage of rations etc etc then maybe the people who voted us out should be at the back of the queue


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## Old Skier (Jul 26, 2018)

And those that didn't bother to vote aren't even allowed in the queue :lol:

Or perhaps people stop worrying about if's and maybe's.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 26, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			And those that didn't bother to vote aren't even allowed in the queue :lol:

*Or perhaps people stop worrying about if's and maybe's*.
		
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People would if they could see a clear, precise,workable plan from the leadership we have.


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## USER1999 (Jul 26, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe having something in place that if we hit hard times because of leaving the EU ( I see a nice trade deal with the US happening ) and we get to the stage of rations etc etc then maybe the people who voted us out should be at the back of the queue
		
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May be the politicians who have failed to get a reasonable deal on something that should not have been this difficult should be at the back of the queue.


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## Old Skier (Jul 26, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			People would if they could see a clear, precise,workable plan from the leadership we have.
		
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We have leadership. There's not a leader from any side showing any leadership on the Brexit issue.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 26, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



*People would if they could see a clear, precise,workable plan* from the leadership we have.
		
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Old Skier said:



			We have leadership. There's not a leader from any side showing any leadership on the Brexit issue.
		
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Just to be clear, i never said we didnt have leadership.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 26, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			May be the politicians who have failed to get a reasonable deal on something that should not have been this difficult should be at the back of the queue.
		
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:clap: :clap:

Nailed it Murph.


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## Crazyface (Jul 26, 2018)

England voted for Brexit, by 53.4% to 46.6%. 
Wales also voted for Brexit, with Leave getting 52.5% of the vote and Remain 47.5%. 
Scotland and Northern Ireland both backed staying in the EU. 
Scotland backed Remain by 62% to 38%, while 55.8% in Northern Ireland voted Remain and 44.2% Leave. See the results in more detail.

So most of the noise complaining about the result of the vote on this is being made from a body of people who VOTED LEAVE !!!! BY 7% !!!!!!!!!!


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## Slime (Jul 26, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			What happens if they donâ€™t come to us?
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



*They regret it.*

Click to expand...

Beat me to it :thup:.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 26, 2018)

Slime said:



			Beat me to it :thup:.
		
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How will they regret it?


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## Slime (Jul 26, 2018)

Because it would mean that they'd not had us over a barrel during the negotiating process.


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## Stuart_C (Jul 26, 2018)

Slime said:



			Because it would mean that they'd not had us over a barrel during the negotiating process.
		
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Really?? 

You're happy for jobs to be lost and families ruined just so you can gloat?

Very disturbing. 

I'll bow out on this thread.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 26, 2018)

Dando said:



â€œI am very anti-Brexitâ€..... well why didnâ€™t you say before as we had no idea!

next you drop the bombshell that Nigel Farage and Donald Trump arenâ€™t on your â€œWinter Festivalâ€ card list

Click to expand...

The point is - that being very anti-Brexit is NOT the same as being an EU-lover...I am not someone who thinks that everything the EU has ever said and done is right and the best thing since sliced bread.  There is much that could be improved.  But leaving the EU in the current geopolitical context is for me just nuts.  And just to put the cherry on top of the madness we have JRM telling us that the UK might not feel any benefit for 50yrs.  Good God man...you didn't tell us *that*!

(BTW - the 50yrs comment from JRM was in the context of being asked if he'd resign if things didn't turn out great - he said he wouldn't because we might not know whether things were turning out great for 50yrs.  Now isn't that just fine and dandy - my 20-something kids might not feel the benefit until they had retired - whoop-de-doop)


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## chrisd (Jul 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The point is - that being very anti-Brexit is NOT the same as being an EU-lover...I am not someone who thinks that everything the EU has ever said and done is right and the best thing since sliced bread.  There is much that could be improved.  But leaving the EU in the current geopolitical context is for me just nuts.  And just to put the cherry on top of the madness we have JRM telling us that the UK might not feel any benefit for 50yrs.  Good God man...you didn't tell us *that*!

(BTW - the 50yrs comment from JRM was in the context of being asked if he'd resign if things didn't turn out great - he said he wouldn't because we might not know whether things were turning out great for 50yrs.  Now isn't that just fine and dandy - my 20-something kids might not feel the benefit until they had retired - whoop-de-doop)
		
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Yep, and we MIGHT feel the benefit straight away


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## spongebob59 (Jul 26, 2018)

Toast

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/44964521


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			So you want your cake and you want to eat it?

When Jaguar Landrover close their uk plants which will affect the supply chain, thought to be circa 60,000 people, for those who voted remin how are those people supposed to feed their families?
		
Click to expand...

Project fear again. It's too pathetic to argue with, it really is.  Shame all the countries outside the EU are starving, at least it will bring immigration to a standstill and all the Johnny foreigners will be kicked out or put in camps where they will have to eat grass.  While we're at it we could build a wall across Ireland and make them pay for it, the EU would need to do a Dublin airlift to feed them as we would mine the Irish Sea.  Yes, anything could happen.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 26, 2018)

So as I see it in a nutshell, to trade with the EU and to trade with the rest of the world we have to do it under EU rules, and pay a fee for doing that.  Eh how's that Brexit. It's like Tesco charging you a tenner to shop there when you can go to ASDA for nowt.
on a positive security discussions are going well. Of course they bloody well would it is in the interests of the EU as much as the UK.


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## Slime (Jul 26, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			Really?? 

You're happy for jobs to be lost and families ruined *just so you can gloat?
*
Very disturbing. 

I'll bow out on this thread.
		
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No gloating here Stu, no gloating here.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			How will they regret it?
		
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They will lose the advantages of trading with such a big market at preferential rates.   Make no doubt, they will still trade with us, some here seem to think that if we don't have a 'Deal' then the EU wont allow us to do any trade with them at any price, that's just nuts!  The best thing we can do now is leave and end this sham of a negotiation, we could then talk to them as a third country who had no ties just like Japan and Canada did, they didnt have to accept free movement or EU law.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 27, 2018)

The new Tory Brexit plan is to start stockpiling food and medicine. But don't worry everything is just dandy now that we have won back control of our country.

The new Labour Brexit plan is shout loudly whilst contradicting everything they say. Any Labour supporters on here [I know :lol:] care to enlighten us on what their Brexit policy is. Other than watch the Tories self destruct.

Anyone think a UK cross party government will actually get something done to re-build our broken nation.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Project fear again. It's too pathetic to argue with, it really is.  Shame all the countries outside the EU are starving, at least it will bring immigration to a standstill and all the Johnny foreigners will be kicked out or put in camps where they will have to eat grass.  While we're at it we could build a wall across Ireland and make them pay for it, the EU would need to do a Dublin airlift to feed them as we would mine the Irish Sea.  Yes, anything could happen.
		
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Says the man who gleefully supported every single anti Independence project fear lie in 2014...â€¦.talk about double standards.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The new Tory Brexit plan is to start stockpiling food and medicine. But don't worry everything is just dandy now that we have won back control of our country.

The new Labour Brexit plan is shout loudly whilst contradicting everything they say. Any Labour supporters on here [I know :lol:] care to enlighten us on what their Brexit policy is. Other than watch the Tories self destruct.

Anyone think a UK cross party government will actually get something done to re-build our broken nation.
		
Click to expand...

Supermarkets are asking how they are supposed to stockpile food - they don't have warehouses for that sort of thing.  And Lord Price - former Waitrose Managing Director and former Conservative international trade minister - tells us that the supermarkets can't stockpile fresh food - so if No Deal expect shortages and significant cost increases - especially in fruit and veg - as 80% of UKs salad veg comes from Spain.

But hey - dead easy to dismiss all this stuff with two words - PF - maybe that's actually PF'L as Project Fear gradually morphs into Project Reality.

But that won't stop many Leavers adopting the recent Trumpism - _What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening._


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## IanM (Jul 27, 2018)

Stockpile food in case of no deal says the Guardian.

Well, went shopping with the Mrs on the way home last night.... all the veg was local... we bought meat from Wales and Herfordshire, Aussie wine, Welsh bottled water.   In fact the Becks was the only EU import in the bag.  

Oh , how will we manage?

(and it the last post one bloke quoting himself?  I wonder?  )


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

*The Genius of Chris Grayling*

And so - to Chris Grayling - not content with presiding over the mess that is Transport and the Rail Franchising (all of which he recently claimed he knew little about); with awarding great dollops of HS2 to Carillion - we today learn that the privatisation of elements of the probation system is going to be dumped as it is not working - at the cost to the taxpayer of Â£170m.  And not forgetting that this is the same Mr Grayling who as justice Secretary promoted longer prison sentences, the restriction of human rights and the severe reduction of legal aid.  

And at the same time he telling us to trust him that all will be well with Brexit - and we are supposed to believe this guy (some would call him an idiot but I shan't as that would be me being judgemental and I don't know the guy personally)

What does it take for this guy to be sacked - he is utterly useless?  But there he sits with his big salary, fancy ministerial car, and huge pension to come - not just presiding over one disaster after another - but being part of the disasters.  

And yet, like Esther McVey (she who through her own words lied to the Commons), he sits there in the cabinet - seemingly immune from criticism from so much of the British media - why?  I can only assume because he is a staunch Brexiter and so needed for Brexiter cabinet balance - and he does what he is told and doesn't ask difficult questions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

Businessman after businessman who import and export to and from the EU calling in to James O'Brien this morning - *explaining *exactly why in detail _No Deal _would be a total disaster for their business.  These guys are telling us about _Project Reality_.

The terrible problem is that the right wing Brexit-loving press and media are not interested in raising such awareness in the general public and asking the government the difficult questions.

And the Brexit-loving politicians dare not admit that these businessmen are telling the truth...that leaving with _No Deal_ will be an unmitigated disaster - and it won't be the charlatans, spivs, liers and snake-oil salesmen who will suffer.

I'm only reflecting what I am hearing.


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## IanM (Jul 27, 2018)

So, they'd prefer a deal rather than no-deal.... that because the need to be clear on the rules of engagement asap.  

That's fair enough.  But it would be nice if the current Government were working towards a pragmatic outcome other than making such a mess, staying in will be the outcome.  I am sure the EU will reward them well for their loyallty...........remember Morning Cloud anyone?

So, have you now ceased campaiging to another Referendum and just stainding again "No Deal?"


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## MegaSteve (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Businessman after businessman who import and export to and from the EU calling in to James O'Brien this morning - *explaining *exactly why in detail _No Deal _would be a total disaster for their business.  These guys are telling us about _Project Reality_.

The terrible problem is that the right wing Brexit-loving press and media are not interested in raising such awareness in the general public and asking the government the difficult questions.

And the Brexit-loving politicians dare not admit that these businessmen are telling the truth...that leaving with _No Deal_ will be an unmitigated disaster - and it won't be the charlatans, spivs, liers and snake-oil salesmen who will suffer.

I'm only reflecting what I am hearing.
		
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It's a shame French farmers don't have access to LBC otherwise they'd be on the line with their concerns with Brussels handling of B****t... 
Let alone how much Jean-Claude will sell them down the river, with the Donald, to protect German jobs... 

And, as for the French political classes...
We can cancel B****t anytime... To continue to enjoy the benefits of EU memberships...
Well, if there had been any joy to be had surely the vote would've gone the other way...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

Some leavers ought to maybe just take a little time to LISTEN to REALITY - rather than simply dismiss EVERYTHING as Project-bloody-Fear. 
 Like the frog in the pot on the hob gently heating the water - will it take the water to be boiling and too late for the frog to get out before some realise and accept that this is going to be a disaster.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

IanM said:



			So, they'd prefer a deal rather than no-deal.... that because the need to be clear on the rules of engagement asap.  

That's fair enough.  But it would be nice if the current Government were working towards a pragmatic outcome other than making such a mess, staying in will be the outcome.  I am sure the EU will reward them well for their loyallty...........remember Morning Cloud anyone?

So, have you now ceased campaiging to another Referendum and just stainding again "No Deal?"   

Click to expand...

There is no deal that the government can reach that will be acceptable to the Leave public, the ERG and parliament.  And Liam Fox knows this, and so is now advising the Prime Minister that _No Deal_ is the way to go.  The Secretary of State for International Trade wants us to leave with _No Deal_. It would be funny were it not so terribly and bizarrely awful.


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## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Supermarkets are asking how they are supposed to stockpile food - they don't have warehouses for that sort of thing.  And Lord Price - former Waitrose Managing Director and former Conservative international trade minister - tells us that the supermarkets can't stockpile fresh food - so if No Deal expect shortages and significant cost increases - especially in fruit and veg - as 80% of UKs salad veg comes from Spain.

But hey - dead easy to dismiss all this stuff with two words - PF - maybe that's actually PF'L as Project Fear gradually morphs into Project Reality.

But that won't stop many Leavers adopting the recent Trumpism - _What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening._

Click to expand...

Well, if 30% of all the UK's food consumption comes from the EU just imagine how much the producers in the EU are shouting at Barnier. Even Merkel has told him, this week, to sort this out. If you think that there's noise in the UK I would suggest you tune in, if your wireless goes that far, to the noise coming from within the EU.

But as per bl00dy usual your postings show no balance. You are the Farage and Johnson of the Remain camp. Next time you call those idiots out, look in the mirror.


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2018)

As a Remain voter who accepts the 'will of the people' (aka the Leave result) it is an utterly appalling situation where the PM claims to have things under control and also announces/promotes 'stockpiling' as she appears to have done. 

The entire charade that is the 'negotiations' needs to be sorted out - and the likes of Merkel need to be convinced that Junkers's charade is no good for any of the countries involved! 

It'll be more posturing until much closer to the cutoff date - at which point Junkers will be TOLD what he should accept! 

It currently seems to be all about brinkmanship, something I used to think UK was particularly good at! But I fear they are, currently, being shown to be 2nd rate.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Some leavers ought to maybe just take a little time to LISTEN to REALITY - rather than simply dismiss EVERYTHING as Project-bloody-Fear. 
 Like the frog in the pot on the hob gently heating the water - will it take the water to be boiling and too late for the frog to get out before some realise and accept that this is going to be a disaster.
		
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Foxy. Don't know how you can get this into your head, but for some of us being in the EU was worse than being out. I am the frog in the boiling pot. The EU and governments of both parties never took me out of said pot. Now you are telling me it could be worse. Really


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## IanM (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There is no deal that the government can reach that will be acceptable to the Leave public, the ERG and parliament.  And Liam Fox knows this, and so is now advising the Prime Minister that _No Deal_ is the way to go.  The Secretary of State for International Trade wants us to leave with _No Deal_. It would be funny were it not so terribly and bizarrely awful.
		
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a) Thats not entirely true.  But you know this. 
b) Plenty of very interesting pro "No Deal" papers about on the net if you bother to check.  Written by people without swastikas on their foreheads. 


And why I continue to reply to you is beyond me


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## Tashyboy (Jul 27, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Foxy. Don't know how you can get this into your head, but for some of us being in the EU was worse than being out. I am the frog in the boiling pot. The EU and governments of both parties never took me out of said pot. Now you are telling me it could be worse. Really
		
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my bad, not Foxy but SILH.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			my bad, not Foxy but SILH.
		
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If only you knew


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2018)

IanM said:



			...
And why I continue to reply to you is beyond me  

Click to expand...

Beyond me too!


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Businessman after businessman who import and export to and from the EU calling in to James O'Brien this morning - *explaining *exactly why in detail _No Deal _would be a total disaster for their business.  These guys are telling us about _Project Reality_.

The terrible problem is that the right wing Brexit-loving press and media are not interested in raising such awareness in the general public and asking the government the difficult questions.

And the Brexit-loving politicians dare not admit that these businessmen are telling the truth...that leaving with _No Deal_ will be an unmitigated disaster - and it won't be the charlatans, spivs, liers and snake-oil salesmen who will suffer.

I'm only reflecting what I am hearing.
		
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In truth, there will definitely some businesses/business models that will suffer, the casual single van driver delivering a van load to an EU country and picking up a van load to speculatively punt in the UK being an obvious case. But ANY businessman worthy of that title should be organising his/her business to mitigate the negatives and take advantage of the positives! He should NOT simply WHINGE about how it affects his/her current business model!

What the Government MUST do is protect the overall interests of the UK economy - and Financial Services (20% of GDP?) are probably the most important part of that! Yet there has been hardly a squeak about how that's going to be maintained!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Says the man who gleefully supported every single anti Independence project fear lie in 2014...â€¦.talk about double standards.

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I didn't give a damn about Scottish independence either way.  Maybe you could enlighten me to what I supposedly said. Memory not so good these days Doom.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Supermarkets are asking how they are supposed to stockpile food - they don't have warehouses for that sort of thing.  And Lord Price - former Waitrose Managing Director and former Conservative international trade minister - tells us that the supermarkets can't stockpile fresh food - so if No Deal expect shortages and significant cost increases - especially in fruit and veg - as 80% of UKs salad veg comes from Spain.

But hey - dead easy to dismiss all this stuff with two words - PF - maybe that's actually PF'L as Project Fear gradually morphs into Project Reality.

But that won't stop many Leavers adopting the recent Trumpism - _What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening._

Click to expand...

pathetic, absolutely pathetic 
 How can intelligent people be taken in by this utter rubbish.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			pathetic, absolutely pathetic 
 How can intelligent people be taken in by this utter rubbish.
		
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I assume that you are referring to Lord Price - former Waitrose Managing Director and former Conservative international trade minister.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't give a damn about Scottish independence either way.  Maybe you could enlighten me to what I supposedly said. Memory not so good these days Doom.
		
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Armed border police, can't use our pound, driving on the right, won't be able to stay in Europe, England boycotting Scots goods, Scots banks will all move to London :lol: It was a good laugh whilst it lasted.
I can fully understand why you wish to forget it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I assume that you are referring to Lord Price - former Waitrose Managing Director and former Conservative international trade minister.
		
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I do not think that the former Conservative trade minister is alone in his thinking.
Irn Bru stocks are already dangerously low in Scotland.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Armed border police, can't use the pound, driving on the right, won't be able to stay in Europe, England boycotting Scots goods, Scots banks will all move to London :lol: It was a good laugh whilst it lasted.
I can fully understand why you wish to forget it.
		
Click to expand...

figments of your imagination or outright lies. I honestly don't give a damn about Scottish independence.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I assume that you are referring to Lord Price - former Waitrose Managing Director and former Conservative international trade minister.
		
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I was referring to anyone who believes that balderdash. It's absolutely stupid.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			figments of your imagination or outright lies. I honestly don't give a damn about Scottish independence.
		
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As you said, your memory is not so good.
Fortunately I have been blessed with a good memory.

The other aspect of the two referendums that makes me smile is how the Watney Red Barrell swigging UKIP Tory types claim that the BBC is biased.

Funny how they took a totally opposite view of that when the YES folk protested against BBC bias in 2014


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The other aspect of the two referendums that makes me smile is how the Watney Red Barrell swigging UKIP Tory types claim that the BBC is biased.

Funny how they took a totally opposite view of that when the YES folk protested against BBC bias in 2014
		
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What was BBC Scotland coverage like for the independence referendum? Genuine question as living down south I don't see much if anything of BBC Scotland programmes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I was referring to anyone who believes that balderdash. It's absolutely stupid.
		
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What is stupid?  That Lord Price says it?  Or that I listen to him (he being a previous Waitrose MD) and take on board what he says?  Rather I should ignore what he says and listen to experts on major store retailing who've never run a corner shop?


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...Scots banks will all move to London :lol: It was a good laugh whilst it lasted.
...
		
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Er...Can you actually name a Scottish (owned) bank?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As you said, your memory is not so good.
Fortunately I have been blessed with a good memory.

The other aspect of the two referendums that makes me smile is how the Watney Red Barrell swigging UKIP Tory types claim that the BBC is biased.

Funny how they took a totally opposite view of that when the YES folk protested against BBC bias in 2014
		
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You are incoherent now Doom. Stop taking the pills man


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What is stupid?  That Lord Price says it?  Or that I listen to him (he being a previous Waitrose MD) and take on board what he says?  Rather I should ignore what he says and listen to experts on major store retailing who've never run a corner shop?
		
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Both of you and anyone else gullible enough to be taken in. It's project fear on steroids. Try thinking it through before you start parroting this nonsense.


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## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2018)

The UK imports just under Â£1bn worth of food a week from the EU. Or that's Â£1bn worth of exports from the EU. Does anyone really think that perishable goods will not be imported in a timely manner? Is anyone that stupid to believe the ridiculous Project Fear surrounding food shortages that are supposed to happen?

Or maybe some people just want to believe because it suits their argument.


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## drdel (Jul 27, 2018)

The Dutch flower market ships from the world and back to the world on a 24 hour cycle. Just like other international logistics systems operating across a range of import / export regimes and tax domains. Your Waitrose man is being economical with the truth or does not know his own company's supply chain.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Armed border police, can't use our pound, driving on the right, won't be able to stay in Europe, England boycotting Scots goods, Scots banks will all move to London :lol: It was a good laugh whilst it lasted.
I can fully understand why you wish to forget it.
		
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Aye but it was enough to get your wee knees knocking!..........Both the Scots Nats and the Leavers were subject to almost word for word  the same â€œProject Fearâ€ campaign and as we saw, you bottled it. You didnâ€™t have the belief in the strength of your own country. It was all a bit too scary standing on your own two feet. 

The English did what they often do when threatened by a foreign bully, they came out swinging. When Obama said â€œ back of the queueâ€ and Mark Carney said we HAD to remain. There was only going to be one outcome. Thankfully. ðŸ˜…


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 27, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Aye but it was enough to get your wee knees knocking!..........Both the Scots Nats and the Leavers were subject to almost word for word  the same â€œProject Fearâ€ campaign and as we saw, you bottled it. You didnâ€™t have the belief in the strength of your own country. It was all a bit too scary standing on your own two feet. 

The English did what they often do when threatened by a foreign bully, they came out swinging. When Obama said â€œ back of the queueâ€ and Mark Carney said we HAD to remain. There was only going to be one outcome. Thankfully. ðŸ˜…
		
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Yes, the auld yins fell for the 'lose your pensions' guff.


Age demographics suggest that independence will happen eventually.


The over 65's still hold the balance although my lifelong Tory voting anti independence mum voted for the SNP at the last election aged 92. So you never know.


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## Old Skier (Jul 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Age demographics suggest that independence will happen eventually.
		
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But not in yours or Mrs Sturgeons lifetime according to her statement to the Scots and the rest of the UK.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, the auld yins fell for the 'lose your pensions' guff.


Age demographics suggest that independence will happen eventually.


The over 65's still hold the balance although my lifelong Tory voting anti independence mum voted for the SNP at the last election aged 92. So you never know.

Click to expand...

Ahh...but you DO know really donâ€™t you? Thatâ€™s why your so bitter and resentful of the English....... 100% itâ€™s never gonna happen.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, the auld yins fell for the 'lose your pensions' guff.


Age demographics suggest that independence will happen eventually.


The over 65's still hold the balance although my lifelong Tory voting anti independence mum voted for the SNP at the last election aged 92. So you never know.

Click to expand...

You're a bit of a coffin dodger yourself Doom.  Are you an oddity?  Dont bother answering its rhetorical.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 28, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Ahh...but you DO know really donâ€™t you? Thatâ€™s why your so bitter and resentful of the English....... 100% itâ€™s never gonna happen.
		
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Oh for goodness sake, not another one who seems to be confused between the difference of being English and being British.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You're a bit of a coffin dodger yourself Doom.  Are you an oddity?  Dont bother answering its rhetorical.
		
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Ahhh your selective memory remembered who I am.....bless.:lol:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 28, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			What was BBC Scotland coverage like for the independence referendum? Genuine question as living down south I don't see much if anything of BBC Scotland programmes.
		
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7,000 protested against BBC Scotland bias at their Glasgow headquarters in 2014. Their bias was, and still is, pretty obvious to anyone of an enquiring mind.

BBC has just shut down the U Tube accounts of two of the most effective independence journalists. 
Both previously had squeaky clean accounts with none or very few previous copyright infringements.
No previous copyright infringements of the pair has gone unresolved.

This is basic State censorship. No similar actions have been taken against any Unionist journalists.

Looking at it with 'trying to be honest eyes' I would say that pro rata BBC bias in 2014 was twice that alluded to in the EU Referendum.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 28, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ahhh your selective memory remembered who I am.....bless.:lol:
		
Click to expand...

 Yes, a coffin dodger who is a bit of an oddity.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, a coffin dodger who is a bit of an oddity.
		
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Coffin Dodger is such a common and crude insult, surprised that someone of your intellect uses it repetitively .


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 28, 2018)

Gentlemen, Final warning, please stop the petty insults otherwise infractions will follow
Thank you


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## Fade and Die (Jul 28, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh for goodness sake, not another one who seems to be confused between the difference of being English and being British.
		
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Hardly! Iâ€™m 100% English...... but Iâ€™m also 100% British, and proud of it....... can you say something similar?


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## Old Skier (Jul 29, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Hardly! Iâ€™m 100% English...... but Iâ€™m also 100% British, and proud of it....... can you say something similar?
		
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I think you'll find most of his immediate family are English so he must be proud of the fact.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 29, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			I think you'll find most of his immediate family are English so he must be proud of the fact.
		
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Iâ€™m not so sure...... I had a job in The Bank of Scotland on Threadneedle St, lasted about 6 months so got to know most of the people there, the majority of the Scottish lads that worked there had English wives and children...... none of them had a good word to say about England or the English! Very strange lot.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Iâ€™m not so sure...... I had a job in The Bank of Scotland on Threadneedle St, lasted about 6 months so got to know most of the people there, the majority of the Scottish lads that worked there had English wives and children...... *none of them had a good word to say about England or the English!* Very strange lot.
		
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Of course they wouldn't say - that doesn't mean to say that they didn't like England or the English


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2018)

Been hearing a bit about MRAs (Mutual Recognition Agreements) in the context of leaving with _No Deal_ and 'reverting' to trading under WTO rules - it all seemed to simple - we leave the EU and simply start trading with USA, China etc under WTO rules.  But I didn't know anything about MRAs - and I still don't know that much - but I know a bit more than I did.

And so I find myself reading an article / blog on the _Leave Alliance_ Website written by the Pro-Brexit economist *Peter North* - which, after much detailed reasoning, concludes.

_â€œOne can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government would allow it.â€_

http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128

And referring to this in a blog titled _The myth of the WTO option_ - the Professor of Organization Studies at Royal Holloway, University of London - *Chris Grey *concludes

_So when Theresa May says that no deal is better than a bad deal she is either willing to entertain such a disaster or it is simply a negotiating tactic. But if it is a negotiating tactic it is a strange one since it is to say: do as I want or I will shoot myself in the head._

http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-myth-of-wto-option.html


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## Old Skier (Jul 29, 2018)

You do realise that this is a blog written by a remainer and backed and recommend by remainers so perhaps it could be factually rubbish.  Also quite an old piece so I'm surprised you waited so long to publish the link.

Nice to know how you waste your Sundays.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			You do realise that this is a blog written by a remainer and backed and recommend by remainers so perhaps it could be factually rubbish.  Also quite an old piece so I'm surprised you waited so long to publish the link.

Nice to know how you waste your Sundays.
		
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Chris Grey is a remainer and so that disqualifies his view - really? Even although he is Professor of Organization Studies at Royal Holloway, University of London - that he is a remainer means that his views can simply be dismissed out of hand - with no reasoning to counter his arguments.

And btw - you'll note that the comment Grey references

_â€œOne can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government would allow it.â€_

...was made by a *pro-Brexit* economist in the _Leave Alliance_ website.

I note that both of these blogs were written well *before* the emergence of the leaver revisionism that has made _No Deal _and reversion to WTO rules something that was on the cards from the word go.  But by golly they apply now that the snake-oil salesmen have been flogging their _No Deal _wares of late.

I think we will hear more of MRAs in the coming days and weeks.

And I will chose how I wish to use my Sundays - absolutely none of your business thankyou.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 29, 2018)

Both articles, and your posts, do seem to conveniently ignore the fact that the EU trades with the UK as well as vice versa, and all of the barriers that are mentioned for the UK trying to trade with the EU are equally applicable the other way round. 1 in 7 German cars are sold in the UK (source quoted below) and the UK could make it very difficult or impossible for that trade to continue. Do you think that the German car manufacturers would be happy to see their profits reduced by 14% because they couldn't sell into the UK market?  And that equally applies to French cheese and wine makers and other producers around the EU. And I'm sure the Spanish holiday resorts wouldn't be happy if the UK government played hardball and made it more difficult for UK citizens to go there on holiday - which is entirely possible in the event of no deal. 

https://fullfact.org/europe/german-cars-uk/


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2018)

I like Chris Grey's blogs. Most of what he posts up is excellent, most of it. Where he lets himself down is when he gets all melodramatic. "BrexitMcCarthyism," he really spoils what he puts out there by trying to overemphasise.

As for revisionism and WTO rules. Someone else is rewriting history, or trying to. WTO was spoken about before the vote as a fallback position if the EU wouldn't agree to trade deals.

There's just too much hysteria, or is it Project Fear, from both sides.


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## Old Skier (Jul 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Chris Grey is a remainer and so that disqualifies his view - really? Even although he is Professor of Organization Studies at Royal Holloway, University of London - that he is a remainer means that his views can simply be dismissed out of hand - with no reasoning to counter his arguments.

And btw - you'll note that the comment Grey references

_â€œOne can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government would allow it.â€_

...was made by a *pro-Brexit* economist in the _Leave Alliance_ website.

I note that both of these blogs were written well *before* the emergence of the leaver revisionism that has made _No Deal _and reversion to WTO rules something that was on the cards from the word go.  But by golly they apply now that the snake-oil salesmen have been flogging their _No Deal _wares of late.

I think we will hear more of MRAs in the coming days and weeks.




			Im still not sure if these are your views that you fully support and can supply facts that can substantiate these claims.
		
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Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 30, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Hardly! Iâ€™m 100% English...... but Iâ€™m also 100% British, and proud of it....... can you say something similar?
		
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As a known supporter of Scottish independence I would have thought that you would have been smart enough to have worked out the answer to your question by yourself. 
Your question more or less confirms your confusion between Britishness and Englishness.


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## drdel (Jul 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Been hearing a bit about MRAs (Mutual Recognition Agreements) in the context of leaving with _No Deal_ and 'reverting' to trading under WTO rules - it all seemed to simple - we leave the EU and simply start trading with USA, China etc under WTO rules.  But I didn't know anything about MRAs - and I still don't know that much - but I know a bit more than I did.

And so I find myself reading an article / blog on the _Leave Alliance_ Website written by the Pro-Brexit economist *Peter North* - which, after much detailed reasoning, concludes.

_â€œOne can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government would allow it.â€_

http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128

And referring to this in a blog titled _The myth of the WTO option_ - the* Professor of Organization Studies at Royal Holloway*, University of London - *Chris Grey *concludes

_So when Theresa May says that no deal is better than a bad deal she is either willing to entertain such a disaster or it is simply a negotiating tactic. But if it is a negotiating tactic it is a strange one since it is to say: do as I want or I will shoot myself in the head._

http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-myth-of-wto-option.html

Click to expand...

Wishy, washy stuff. Load of subjective waffle which is long on opinions and short on facts from a well known self publicist.  Have a look at the work of some real economists and econometricians.

Please remember the UK trades successfully with the RoW,  with 'deals' and treaties in place. The 'fear' and brinkmanship is mostly a media and political storm promoted by those seeking the limelight to support their ambitions (political or personal).

You can get anything (that's legal) shipped to you or exported by you easily - just ask DHL, FEDEX, UPS etc who will handle the different duties and taxes within well established customs integrated systems.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Im still not sure if these are your views that you fully support and can supply facts that can substantiate these claims.
		
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I am simply highlighting analysis that counters the _No Deal OK - WTO Rules OK _mantra.  I only know what I read.  If you wish to counter the analysis then please do - so for instance point out to my why this Pro-Brexit economist is wrong in his assertion.  Don;t attack me - I am just the messenger.

And just to help further - here is a link to a consideration from April 2015 of the UKIP view of leaving the EU on WTO rules as set out in the UKIP manifesto of the time - it also considers the changing position at the time of Roth Lea...

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85534

The article finishes (my bold)

_To trade with the EU, therefore, we are going to have to negotiate such agreements - trade agreements by any other name â€“ and, for the time being, tap into the EU's ongoing arrangements. *The "no negotiation" stance on withdrawal is not tenable. The WTO option, and what is termed by Global Britain as the "free trade option", is a dangerous fantasy. *And at least Ukip has recognised that. The rest need to follow._


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## Old Skier (Jul 30, 2018)

The question was, do you agree and can you provide evidence to substantiate the link. Once again you use the "not me Guv" defence without saying anything of substance.

As I and others have said, untill the deed is done nobody really knows what is going to happen so me putting up spurious links in the same way you do provides no purpose.


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## Old Skier (Jul 30, 2018)

Before someome spreads more useless links:

Planning for no-deal Brexit

A number of outlets, including the Daily Express, Daily Mail, Daily Mirror, Daily Star, Telegraph and Daily Record follow up on the Sunday Times story on supposed â€˜no-dealâ€™ preparations, including the potential for the Army to help deliver supplies.

An MOD spokesperson said:

We have received no formal request from other Government departments to assist in their contingency planning for a no-deal Brexit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			The question was, do you agree and can you provide evidence to substantiate the link. Once again you use the "not me Guv" defence without saying anything of substance.

As I and others have said, untill the deed is done nobody really knows what is going to happen so me putting up spurious links in the same way you do provides no purpose.
		
Click to expand...

No - the question is do *you *agree - and if not why not?  

Because it is not I who is suggesting that a _No Deal _and reverting to WTO rules are good things.  Just rubbishing the views of those who did not vote to leave - and indeed rubbishing the views of some who DID vote to leave - just doesn't cut it.  You might as well be a climate change denialist - ignoring all evidence presented - on the grounds that you simply don't believe in climate change.

And so explain to me why the* Mutual Recognition Agreement* aspect of trading (under WTO rules) is a red herring argument that will not apply to the UK on day #1 after leaving the EU.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 30, 2018)

I am fairly confident there won't be a 'no deal' final outcome as that doesn't fit the purposes of either side...
Also, fairly confident, both sides will be claiming victory and that they got the best possible deal for their side of the 'argument'...


It's how the political classes justifies its existence...
Or, at least attempts to...


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## Hobbit (Jul 30, 2018)

No deal is a deal. It means that trading will occur under WTO, not a cosy cuddly deal. All the rubbish about there'll be no food/medicine etc is just Project Fear, as trading will still occur albeit under different rules, including tariffs.

I can't believe that people are gullible enough to believe the rubbish being put out.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			No deal is a deal. It means that trading will occur under WTO, not a cosy cuddly deal. All the rubbish about there'll be no food/medicine etc is just Project Fear, as trading will still occur albeit under different rules, including tariffs.

*I can't believe that people are gullible enough to believe the rubbish being put out.*

Click to expand...

I can by reading the piffle some post on this site.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			No deal is a deal. It means that trading will occur under WTO, not a cosy cuddly deal. All the rubbish about there'll be no food/medicine etc is just Project Fear, as trading will still occur albeit under different rules, including tariffs.

I can't believe that people are gullible enough to believe the rubbish being put out.
		
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Bri - You are usually good at actually trying to explain things (rather than just dismiss them) so can you explain why it is a red herring to raise issues in respect of the way MRAs work with WTO rules.  Because what I am hearing is that on day #1 of leaving without a trade deal we cannot just 'revert' to trading under WTO rules and expect frictionless trade - for that we have to have MRAs in place with any country we are trading with under WTO rules.  And these MRAs do not happen overnight.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 30, 2018)

Lord Owen has just made a very good point on the way MPs are acting on Brexit.

"I think Parliament has let down the country, Parliamentarians are a miserable lot, frankly. I think they were  gripped by a religion and they canâ€™t stop believing in it. And they have  really managed to convince themselves that they are entitled in a  strange way to thwart Brexit. They forget that they voted for the  referendum, over 500 of them. "


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## Hobbit (Jul 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bri - You are usually good at actually trying to explain things (rather than just dismiss them) so can you explain why it is a red herring to raise issues in respect of the way MRAs work with WTO rules.  Because what I am hearing is that on day #1 of leaving without a trade deal we cannot just 'revert' to trading under WTO rules and expect frictionless trade - for that we have to have MRAs in place with any country we are trading with under WTO rules.  And these MRAs do not happen overnight.
		
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There won't be frictionless trade. Trade will be under WTO rules, apart from where the EU stipulate quotas already in place. This is actually a tightrope for the EU because under WTO rules it is illegal to trade with one country under WTO and not have the same tariffs/quotas with another country - and the EU have been fined many times by WTO for this very thing.

Don't get confused by who trades with who. It isn't the individual countries that trade, its the companies and businesses that do the trading. And this is where it becomes complicated again. Legally binding contracts are in place, some of which are multi-year deals, between companies. Those contracts will include pricing structures, albeit the tariffs fall outside of those structures. The companies on both sides of the Channel will have done the deals/budgets around their respective costings.

MRA's; some countries/trading blocs insist on conformity, and the EU is one of those trading blocs that insists on any product entering the EU conforming to EU regs, the USA is another that insists on conformity. The EU already exports to the USA, and does conform to FDA reg, not MRA's.

But, as it patently obvious, the UK already manufactures and grows all its produce that goes to the EU to EU regs. And what is also obvious is that it would be costly to change those processes for a multitude of reasons. Come Brexit day those products can no longer be CE marked but they will satisfy the requirements/regs to be able to be exported to the EU. What the UK manufacturers need to do is get the EU to accept that on D-Day the products will conform because they are already being manufactured to the CE regs. Its a box ticking exercise but I expect the EU to be awkward about it.

The divergence will come later when either the EU or the UK changes its regs, and that's when the issue of MRA's will arise - but don't forget, its the manufacturers in the UK that will decide if they want to export to the EU, and will then have to conform to EU regs. Many manufacturers already export to different markets with different regs, and without MRA's in place. They build to that countries regs, e.g. to the USA.

Am I dismissing the scaremongering? If the EU want to be awkward to the nth degree there will be issues but I just can't see them doing that. They'll make a stand on some issues to prove a point but most aspects of trade will go through ok.


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## IanM (Jul 30, 2018)

Who actually thought those in power would listen to a Referendum?

No vote against the EU has ever stood. Why would this be any different?


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## Fade and Die (Jul 30, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Before someome spreads more useless links:

Planning for no-deal Brexit

A number of outlets, including the Daily Express, Daily Mail, Daily Mirror, Daily Star, Telegraph and Daily Record follow up on the Sunday Times story on supposed â€˜no-dealâ€™ preparations, including the potential for the Army to help deliver supplies.

An MOD spokesperson said:

We have received no formal request from other Government departments to assist in their contingency planning for a no-deal Brexit.
		
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All this tripe about using the army for food supplies is scare-mongering of the highest order. The government don't want Brexit anymore than David Lammy......this is preparing the public for a complete u-turn on it.

Just watch.

The utter guff coming out of Westminster in trying to scare the bejesus out of the public is truly hilarious.


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## drdel (Jul 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			There won't be frictionless trade. Trade will be under WTO rules, apart from where the EU stipulate quotas already in place. This is actually a tightrope for the EU because under WTO rules it is illegal to trade with one country under WTO and not have the same tariffs/quotas with another country - and the EU have been fined many times by WTO for this very thing.

Don't get confused by who trades with who. It isn't the individual countries that trade, its the companies and businesses that do the trading. And this is where it becomes complicated again. Legally binding contracts are in place, some of which are multi-year deals, between companies. Those contracts will include pricing structures, albeit the tariffs fall outside of those structures. The companies on both sides of the Channel will have done the deals/budgets around their respective costings.

MRA's; some countries/trading blocs insist on conformity, and the EU is one of those trading blocs that insists on any product entering the EU conforming to EU regs, the USA is another that insists on conformity. The EU already exports to the USA, and does conform to FDA reg, not MRA's.

But, as it patently obvious, the UK already manufactures and grows all its produce that goes to the EU to EU regs. And what is also obvious is that it would be costly to change those processes for a multitude of reasons. Come Brexit day those products can no longer be CE marked but they will satisfy the requirements/regs to be able to be exported to the EU. What the UK manufacturers need to do is get the EU to accept that on D-Day the products will conform because they are already being manufactured to the CE regs. Its a box ticking exercise but I expect the EU to be awkward about it.

The divergence will come later when either the EU or the UK changes its regs, and that's when the issue of MRA's will arise - but don't forget, its the manufacturers in the UK that will decide if they want to export to the EU, and will then have to conform to EU regs. Many manufacturers already export to different markets with different regs, and without MRA's in place. They build to that countries regs, e.g. to the USA.

Am I dismissing the scaremongering? If the EU want to be awkward to the nth degree there will be issues but I just can't see them doing that. They'll make a stand on some issues to prove a point but most aspects of trade will go through ok.
		
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Good grief, you don't want to start posting common business sense on here - it'll never trump the opinionated waffle of doom.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 30, 2018)

There were lots of empty spaces on the supermarket shelves this afternoon.
No Werthers Originals or lactose free skimmed milk in stock, quite worrying.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 30, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			The utter guff coming out of Westminster in trying to scare the bejesus out of the public is truly hilarious.
		
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Not up to 2014 Scotland levels yet though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2018)

drdel said:



			Good grief, you don't want to start posting common business sense on here - it'll never trump the opinionated waffle of doom.
		
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Well is it not a good thing that I asked...as I know I'll get a decent and reasoned response to my questions, concerns and misunderstandings.  Always a breath of fresh air compared with the usual trite dismissals I get from too many.

I must now go away and try to understand what it all means.

And I bet that there are not that many of the electorate who actually understand much - or indeed any - of this sort of stuff - because unlike all the smart businessmen on here - not all of the electorate have such insightful understanding into the ways of commerce and business and they were not provided with it by the Leave campaigns (the Remain campaign could have tried better but we know that that would all have been lumped under Project Fear)


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2018)

Leaked Dover council memo states 13 mile M20 Brexit lorry park could last for many years.

The incoming food shortage info is based on the lack of storage space in supermarkets using just in time [straight off the lorry into the store] systems.

The outgoing delays to UK fresh produce into EU countries will also be seriously affected, especially areas furthest from South of England ports.


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2018)

drdel said:



			Good grief, you don't want to start posting common business sense on here - it'll never trump the opinionated waffle of doom.
		
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Well, 82% of it is common business sense...

Oh hang on a minute! I may have just picked that number out of thin air...It's probably complete twaddle (or at least 82% twaddle)!

You don't seem to have answered my question in the 'May not up to it' thread! I'd be grateful if you did! Even just how that figure came about!

Purely in the interests of getting the facts right of course!


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Leaked Dover council memo states 13 mile M20 Brexit lorry park could last for many years.

The incoming food shortage info is based on the lack of storage space in supermarkets using just in time [straight off the lorry into the store] systems.

The outgoing delays to UK fresh produce into EU countries will also be seriously affected, especially areas furthest from South of England ports.
		
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Doon! Try to get your facts straight please!

It's not a '13 mile Brexit Lorry Park'! It's the "'13 Mile Lorry Park on the M20' that could last many years after Brexit!" A completely different concept from the twaddle you continue to peddle!

It's Ok though. Scotland's finest product has its own 'preservative' built in! And I'm not meaning Haggis!


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## spongebob59 (Jul 31, 2018)

It's like that anyway when ever the French decide to strike


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## SocketRocket (Jul 31, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Leaked Dover council memo states 13 mile M20 Brexit lorry park could last for many years.

The incoming food shortage info is based on the lack of storage space in supermarkets using just in time [straight off the lorry into the store] systems.

The outgoing delays to UK fresh produce into EU countries will also be seriously affected, especially areas furthest from South of England ports.
		
Click to expand...

Assuming the UK open our ports to eu imports but France decides to slow down UK trucks then will it not be Eu countries that face shortages.


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Assuming the UK open our ports to eu imports *but France decides to slow down UK trucks then will it not be Eu countries that face shortages.*

Click to expand...

They'll simply opt to acquire fresh products from other EU countries - after all, there'll be no duty payable/delays for those transactions, unlike products from UK. 

It is, of course, precisely this sort of scenario - and ways to 'solve' it - that is under negotiation! Oh and France will only be applying the EU's orders! Same will happen at all other entry points for UK goods into Europe, as it does now!


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## IanM (Jul 31, 2018)

Won't it be funny when the French farmers riot over loss of earnings.... but maybe the EU will offer them cash to behave!


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## adam6177 (Jul 31, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Doon! Try to get your facts straight please!

It's not a '13 mile Brexit Lorry Park'! It's the "'13 Mile Lorry Park on the M20' that could last many years after Brexit!" A completely different concept from the twaddle you continue to peddle!
		
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Thats how Sky are reporting it "13-mile M20 Brexit lorry park to last 'many years'


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2018)

adam6177 said:



Thats how Sky are reporting it "13-mile M20 Brexit lorry park to last 'many years'

Click to expand...

No it's bleeding not!!!!!

Can't you read? Has Doon hijacked your id?

Here's the headline! '13-mile lorry park may last 'many years' after Brexit, impact reports reveal'

NOT 'Brexit Lorry park'!!!!!   'Lorry Park........Brexit'

Select the link and you will (at least should!) see the difference!

Jeez!

Completely as I stated!!!


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## adam6177 (Jul 31, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			No it's bleeding not!!!!!

Can't you read? Has Doon hijacked your id?

Here's the headline! '13-mile lorry park may last 'many years' after Brexit, impact reports reveal'

NOT 'Brexit Lorry park'!!!!!   'Lorry Park........Brexit'

Select the link and you will (at least should!) see the difference!

Jeez!

Completely as I stated!!!
		
Click to expand...

No, it's as I stated....go to the Sky news home page and read the headline link to the story.  I was simply copying and pasting the headline.

I'll accept my apology via PM if you dont want to do it in public.... and next time dont be rude to me, I wasn't to you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			No it's bleeding not!!!!!

Can't you read? Has Doon hijacked your id?

Here's the headline! '13-mile lorry park may last 'many years' after Brexit, impact reports reveal'

NOT 'Brexit Lorry park'!!!!!   'Lorry Park........Brexit'

Select the link and you will (at least should!) see the difference!

Jeez!

Completely as I stated!!!
		
Click to expand...

Whatever - Project Fear or Fear Project - the truth is not what you read or see it is what Leavers tell you will be...unsubstantiated though their beliefs may be.  And beliefs is all that they are - the main belief being that if something is said enough times then it will come to pass.

Witness Marcus Fysh MP on Newsnight last night - utterly embarrassing, useless and stumbling performance, completely failing to answer in any substantive way whatsoever concerns put by Emily Maitlis about fresh food imports (as the might affect the fresh sandwich industry etc) post a No Deal, and resorting to _'it's just nonsense being spouted to thwart the will of the British People' _.  Because it seems that that is all he had.  

https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1024207148014870529

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1024050135469240320

I think Mr Gregsbury from Dickens' _Nicholas Nickleby_ would describe Fysh as a 'gammon' in that Fysh is _a large, self-satisfied, middle aged man who professes an extreme patriotism in large part to disguise his essential selfishness and corruption._

Could be a description of a number of MPs.


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## Old Skier (Jul 31, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I'll accept my apology via PM if you dont want to do it in public.... and next time dont be rude to me, I wasn't to you.
		
Click to expand...

Now now, your not suggesting Foxholer is attacking the man. He hates such attacks.


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whatever - Project Fear or Fear Project - the truth is not what you read or see it is what Leavers tell you will be...unsubstantiated though their beliefs may be.  And beliefs is all that they are - the main belief being that if something is said enough times then it will come to pass.

Witness Marcus Fysh MP on Newsnight last night - utterly embarrassing, useless and stumbling performance, completely failing to answer in any substantive way whatsoever concerns put by Emily Maitless about fresh food imports (as the might affect the fresh sandwich industry etc) post a No Deal, and resorting to _'it's just nonsense being spouted to thwart the will of the British People' _.  Because it seems that that is all he had.  

https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1024207148014870529

I think Mr Gregsbury from Dickens' _Nicholas Nickleby_ would describe Fysh as a 'gammon' in that Fysh is _a large, self-satisfied, middle aged man who professes an extreme patriotism in large part to disguise his essential selfishness and corruption._

Could be a description of a number of MPs.
		
Click to expand...

But aren't the projections by the Remain side only projections based on no negotiated settlement? In effect, they are giving a worst case scenario. 

Can you see the EU wanting a worst case scenario when they are also desperate for a deal, e.g. fishing rights that they want no change whatsoever to the current access to UK waters?


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## adam6177 (Jul 31, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Now now, your not suggesting Foxholer is attacking the man. He hates such attacks.
		
Click to expand...

No suggestion at all , but I think it's clear that the response to my post was completely disproportionate in its tone and uncalled for.

Anyway, I'm off to enjoy the 'orse racing.  Carry on :thup:


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## MegaSteve (Jul 31, 2018)

IanM said:



			Won't it be funny when the French farmers riot over loss of earnings.... but maybe the EU will offer them cash to behave!
		
Click to expand...


They will...
And, they won't...


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			No, it's as I stated....go to the Sky news home page and read the headline link to the story.  I was simply copying and pasting the headline.

I'll accept my apology via PM if you dont want to do it in public.... and next time dont be rude to me, I wasn't to you.
		
Click to expand...

Er.... I followed the link you quoted in post 417!

Btw. It just shows the difference between headlines and the 'real' thing!

If you want to find another link that matches with your/Doon's interpretation, then...... But it's balderdash!


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## Foxholer (Jul 31, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Now now, your not suggesting Foxholer is attacking the man. He hates such attacks.
		
Click to expand...

Nope! Not the man....Just the accuracy/reference! Have you actually checked the link? I suggest you do!

I trust you'll donate a(nother) tenner to H4H for the accusation!


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## Old Skier (Jul 31, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Nope! Not the man....Just the accuracy/reference! Have you actually checked the link? I suggest you do!

I trust you'll donate a(nother) tenner to H4H for the accusation!
		
Click to expand...

Your accusations that the poster was illiterate and couldn't read and your personal attack on me should be enough for your donations if you feel it appropriate.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 31, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Er.... I followed the link you quoted in post 417!

Btw. It just shows the difference between headlines and the 'real' thing!

If you want to find another link that matches with your/Doon's interpretation, then...... But it's balderdash!
		
Click to expand...

What about this one......

https://news.sky.com/politics

Just under the story about May meeting Macron is this......


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## Old Skier (Jul 31, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			What about this one......

https://news.sky.com/politics

Just under the story about May meeting Macron is this......

View attachment 25294

Click to expand...

Come on, that's naughty providing the evidence.


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## adam6177 (Jul 31, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			What about this one......

https://news.sky.com/politics

Just under the story about May meeting Macron is this......

View attachment 25294

Click to expand...

That's the exact screenshot I didn't have the technical expertise to post myself, good work.

I wonder how many keyboard warriors are like they are on the net in person.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			No it's bleeding not!!!!!

Can't you read? Has Doon hijacked your id?

Here's the headline! '13-mile lorry park may last 'many years' after Brexit, impact reports reveal'

NOT 'Brexit Lorry park'!!!!!   'Lorry Park........Brexit'

Select the link and you will (at least should!) see the difference!

Jeez!

Completely as I stated!!!
		
Click to expand...

That did give me a good chuckle.:lol:

Whatever you want to call it I am getting very concerned about the Werthers Original shortage.....non in Tesco's today either.
That only leaves Sainsbury's now. Waitrose, with their four supermarkets are far too posh for Scotland or stocking Werthers.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 31, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That did give me a good chuckle.:lol:

Whatever you want to call it I am getting very concerned about the Werthers Original shortage.....non in Tesco's today either.
That only leaves Sainsbury's now. Waitrose, with their four supermarkets are far too posh for Scotland or stocking Werthers.
		
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As a German company it's likely it considers itself as being highly efficient...
And, probably totally gutted at its own inability to gets its product on a shelf near you...


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## chrisd (Jul 31, 2018)

I'd be happy with a 13 mile queue given that the last time the French went on strike the queue was about 30 miles and we couldn't get out of our village - result! &#128077;


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 31, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			As a German company it's likely it considers itself as being highly efficient...
And, probably totally gutted at its own inability to gets its product on a shelf near you...
		
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Wishful thinking...â€¦..more likely the shortage of buyers, floor staff and drivers [due to Brexit] of the British supermarket chains.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 31, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wishful thinking...â€¦..more likely the shortage of buyers, floor staff and drivers [due to Brexit] of the British supermarket chains.
		
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One of my lads is a supply chain manager for a large multi-national food company...
And, if one of his products wasn't available he'd be kicking as many butts as it took to make sure they were...
And and, I am pretty sure his counterparts in other companies in a similar position would be doing the same...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			One of my lads is a supply chain manager for a large multi-national food company...
And, if one of his products wasn't available he'd be kicking as many butts as it took to make sure they were...
And and, I am pretty sure his counterparts in other companies in a similar position would be doing the same...
		
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...and if they were in a lorry stuck in a 15mile queue Calais-side of the channel - whose butt is he going to kick?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and if they were in a lorry stuck in a 15mile queue Calais-side of the channel - whose butt is he going to kick?
		
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Doon was talking about a lack of product in his local stores right now. As far as I'm aware there are no queues either side of the channel right now so it's a screw up in the supply chain somewhere and nothing to do with Brexit.

And with the reported plan to just waive through EU goods after Brexit there are unlikely to be queues on the Calais side of the channel. The queues will all be on this side.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and if they were in a lorry stuck in a 15mile queue Calais-side of the channel - whose butt is he going to kick?
		
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If that actually comes to pass I suspect there are planned resolutions in place...


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2018)

Maybe I'm missing something, or just plain thick - answers on a postcard.

There's just been a piece on the BBC Breakfast news in which a guy has said that Brexit will cause problems with the importation of animal foodstuffs from the EU, leading to food shortages in the supermarkets.

I find it hard to believe that barriers will be put in the way of imports that will lead to shortages. Yes, there may well be issues exporting into the EU. But issues importing? Really? 

The UK may well resort to tariffs on imports of non-essential items from the EU, e.g. cars, but I just can't believe the level of rubbish being put out on a daily basis that is purely Project Fear. "Oh, lets stop feedstuffs coming into the UK and cause problems for our own people!" Unbelievable!

Prepare yourself for another vote, once all the Project Fear has been drip fed(avalanched) to the public.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe I'm missing something, or just plain thick - answers on a postcard.

There's just been a piece on the BBC Breakfast news in which a guy has said that Brexit will cause problems with the importation of animal foodstuffs from the EU, leading to food shortages in the supermarkets.

I find it hard to believe that barriers will be put in the way of imports that will lead to shortages. Yes, there may well be issues exporting into the EU. But issues importing? Really? 

The UK may well resort to tariffs on imports of non-essential items from the EU, e.g. cars, but I just can't believe the level of rubbish being put out on a daily basis that is purely Project Fear. "Oh, lets stop feedstuffs coming into the UK and cause problems for our own people!" Unbelievable!

Prepare yourself for another vote, once all the Project Fear has been drip fed(avalanched) to the public.
		
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I am beginning to agree with DfT in that the Beeb have been reduced to being pedlars of 'fake news'...


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			I am beginning to agree with DfT in that the Beeb have been reduced to being pedlars of 'fake news'...
		
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Think you're both right. Another piece, shortly after, had food prices of imported goods rising dramatically. Why? Where is the evidence? Who's given the instruction to the Beeb to start reporting these things at this level? Where are the official notifications that the UK is going to raise tariffs on food?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Think you're both right. Another piece, shortly after, had food prices of imported goods rising dramatically. Why? Where is the evidence? Who's given the instruction to the Beeb to start reporting these things at this level? Where are the official notifications that the UK is going to raise tariffs on food?
		
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Update on the publicly owned BBC shutting down [censoring] two Scottish Pro Independence journalists U Tube sites for using BBC news clips.

Pro Independence Journalist interviewed on BBC Scotland and the interviewer embarrassingly said that they had tried to get a BBC spokesperson on to explain their actions but non were available.


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## adam6177 (Aug 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Prepare yourself for another vote, once all the Project Fear has been drip fed(avalanched) to the public.
		
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MegaSteve said:



			I am beginning to agree with DfT in that the Beeb have been reduced to being pedlars of 'fake news'...
		
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Hobbit said:



			Think you're both right. Another piece, shortly after, had food prices of imported goods rising dramatically. Why? Where is the evidence? Who's given the instruction to the Beeb to start reporting these things at this level? Where are the official notifications that the UK is going to raise tariffs on food?
		
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Finally others are seeing what I've been saying for months and months - the BBC have reverted to their war time-esque propaganda machine mode driven by the government, largely who wanted to remain.  The idea being that if they keep hammering on the door with scaremongering tactics they will eventually force another vote at which time they'll have scared/brain washed people into doing their bidding.

Honestly, with the main stream media you MUST question everything and what their agenda is behind it, especially with something so important.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe I'm missing something, or just plain thick - answers on a postcard.

There's just been a piece on the BBC Breakfast news in which a guy has said that Brexit will cause problems with the importation of animal foodstuffs from the EU, leading to food shortages in the supermarkets.

I find it hard to believe that barriers will be put in the way of imports that will lead to shortages. Yes, there may well be issues exporting into the EU. But issues importing? Really? 

The UK may well resort to tariffs on imports of non-essential items from the EU, e.g. cars, but I just can't believe the level of rubbish being put out on a daily basis that is purely Project Fear. "Oh, lets stop feedstuffs coming into the UK and cause problems for our own people!" Unbelievable!

Prepare yourself for another vote, once all the Project Fear has been drip fed(avalanched) to the public.
		
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Apologies if Iâ€™m confused, but there was a mention about the severe shortage of vets in the UK and currently we accept certain animal foodstuffs and products if theyâ€™ve got the EU Vet Stamp on, if we then have no deal we would then not recognise the EU Vet Stamp (Donâ€™t know why) and all these products would have to be checked by our vets (which we donâ€™t have) prior to acceptance into the UK.

Edit: Not saying this is correct or part of project fear.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			Honestly, with the main stream media you MUST question everything and what their agenda is behind it, especially with something so important.
		
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For the last four years the fall back scenario with the MSM Scottish unionist press is 'The headline is generally a lie'.
On many occasions if you read down to the last couple of paras you can get to their version of the truth.


I find it amusing that certain posters on here and the rUK finally woken up to the ways of the BBC.
Total U turn from 2014.


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Apologies if Iâ€™m confused, but there was a mention about the severe shortage of vets in the UK and currently we accept certain animal foodstuffs and products if theyâ€™ve got the EU Vet Stamp on, if we then have no deal we would then not recognise the EU Vet Stamp (Donâ€™t know why) and all these products would have to be checked by our vets (which we donâ€™t have) prior to acceptance into the UK.

Edit: Not saying this is correct or part of project fear.
		
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But we accept stuff from all around the world with the stamp of the exporting country. Accepting stuff with an EU CE mark is a box ticking exercise being made to look like its something insurmountable. Unless I'm missing something this is just propaganda.


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## PieMan (Aug 1, 2018)

All the relevant information re. importing and exporting foodstuffs is on the Food Standards Agency/Gov.UK websites.

Basically all food imported into the UK/EU must have the relevant certification - this won't change after EU Exit. If it doesn't have the certification then it's either returned to the exporting country or destroyed.

And the UK is in the process of looking at creating new - and enhancing current - Border Inspection Posts to improve and increase capacity for dealing with imports and exports of goods from EU and non-EU countries.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			If that actually comes to pass I suspect there are planned resolutions in place...
		
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Apparently there was a plan in place for Brexit when May triggered Article 50...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			I am beginning to agree with DfT in that the Beeb have been reduced to being pedlars of 'fake news'...
		
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If an official trade body holds an opinion that it then expresses - then that is *not *Fake News.  That is their understanding of a future Reality.  Now you might not agree with it but it is not 'fake'.  

Stating as _*true* _something that is demonstrably and factually *not* true, and presenting that to the public as news - then that is 'fake news'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			Finally others are seeing what I've been saying for months and months - the BBC have reverted to their war time-esque propaganda machine mode driven by the government, largely who wanted to remain.  The idea being that if they keep hammering on the door with scaremongering tactics they will eventually force another vote at which time they'll have scared/brain washed people into doing their bidding.

Honestly, with the main stream media you MUST question everything and what their agenda is behind it, especially with something so important.
		
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Was Emily Maitlis demonstrating BBC bias in her hammering of Marcus Fysh a couple of nights back on Newsnight - or was she just exposing the guy for what he is - a Brexit-Whatever purveyor of empty platitudes with no answers to the concerns being raised by the representative of a trade body...other than what he believes will be the case once we leave.  He offered nothing other than blind faith and the _'we must deliver what the people voted for'_ mantra/schtick.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 1, 2018)

PieMan said:



			All the relevant information re. importing and exporting foodstuffs is on the Food Standards Agency/Gov.UK websites.

Basically all food imported into the UK/EU must have the relevant certification - this won't change after EU Exit. If it doesn't have the certification then it's either returned to the exporting country or destroyed.

And the UK is in the process of looking at creating new - and enhancing current - Border Inspection Posts to improve and increase capacity for dealing with imports and exports of goods from EU and non-EU countries.
		
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Hobbit said:



			But we accept stuff from all around the world with the stamp of the exporting country. Accepting stuff with an EU CE mark is a box ticking exercise being made to look like its something insurmountable. Unless I'm missing something this is just propaganda.
		
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As you both say it shouldnâ€™t be an issue and no more than a box ticking exercise, but, what if the UK doesnâ€™t accept the EU Stamp and itâ€™s not marked with a particular Country stamp and we donâ€™t have the new procedures or improved facilities in place.
Iâ€™ve no experience of the above, but it seems the fear is coming from changes happening overnight, if itâ€™s a long drawn out process then youâ€™d hope all procedures would and should be there.


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## PieMan (Aug 1, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			As you both say it shouldnâ€™t be an issue and no more than a box ticking exercise, but, what if the UK doesnâ€™t accept the EU Stamp and itâ€™s not marked with a particular Country stamp and we donâ€™t have the new procedures or improved facilities in place.
Iâ€™ve no experience of the above, but it seems the fear is coming from changes happening overnight, if itâ€™s a long drawn out process then youâ€™d hope all procedures would and should be there.
		
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The UK is in the main rolling-over all current EU regulations and requirements so in effect not an issue. As I said, under current requirements, all consignments of food has to have the correct documentation attached to it. If it doesn't it's rejected and not allowed into the country. The issue will not be with the UK authorities - it will be with the EU not recognising UK certificates.


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If an official trade body holds an opinion that it then expresses - then that is *not *Fake News.  That is their understanding of a future Reality.  Now you might not agree with it but it is not 'fake'.  

Stating as _*true* _something that is demonstrably and factually *not* true, and presenting that to the public as news - then that is 'fake news'.
		
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It is, as you say, an "opinion." Nothing has been confirmed yet, yet there are so many people jumping up and down and shouting hysterically that the sky is falling down. Just because they believe it will be the future reality still doesn't make it anything more than an opinion until someone signs a bit of paper/agreement that that is now the new process.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			It is, as you say, an "opinion." Nothing has been confirmed yet, yet there are so many people jumping up and down and shouting hysterically that the sky is falling down. Just because they believe it will be the future reality still doesn't make it anything more than an opinion until someone signs a bit of paper/agreement that that is now the new process.
		
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Exactly.  Many businessmen and trade bodies are looking at how their businesses operate - and the lack of clarity and planning for a _No Deal_ especially fills them with dread as they have been doing business within the context of the EU for 40yrs - for many all of their business life.  They have been sitting for two years with these concerns - waiting - now they are expressing these concerns as they still see a vacuum.  

And all they get are Brexit-Whatever-Lovers like Marcus Fysh telling them that they are wrong and stupid - that they need to believe in Brexit as that is what the British public voted for.  That does nothing to assuage their concerns.  And so they, and more like them, will continue to voice their concerns.  And that is *not* 'fake news' - that is their understanding of their future reality.  They cannot simply wait until post Brexit reality takes hold - they must plan for _*their *_expected reality.


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Exactly.  Many businessmen and trade bodies are looking at how their businesses operate - and the lack of clarity and planning for a _No Deal_ especially fills them with dread as they have been doing business within the context of the EU for 40yrs - for many all of their business life.  They have been sitting for two years with these concerns - waiting - now they are expressing these concerns as they still see a vacuum.  

And all they get are Brexit-Whatever-Lovers like Marcus Fysh telling them that they are wrong and stupid - that they need to believe in Brexit as that is what the British public voted for.  That does nothing to assuage their concerns.  And so they, and more like them, will continue to voice their concerns.  And that is *not* 'fake news' - that is their understanding of their future reality.  They cannot simply wait until post Brexit reality takes hold - they must plan for _*their *_expected reality.
		
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Obviously no business wants to be caught out, and the lack of a plan a,b,c,d etc from the government is poor but itâ€™s still only opinions. Yes the opinion of a hard Brexit isnâ€™t good but how about someone posting up some positive opinions, and then maybe thereâ€™ll be a balanced argument.

For example, the (cheaper)imports from India are expected to rise from 8% to 26% in the first 2 years because of the lifting of the current tariffs that make their products too expensive. By the end of 5 years the projection is 32%, As manufacturing takes advantage of the upturn.

Thatâ€™s only a projection, just like the scaremongering thatâ€™s flowing in full force at present. Neither are fake news, and neither of them will become facts until a particular scenario becomes reality. And neither are reality yet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Obviously no business wants to be caught out, and the lack of a plan a,b,c,d etc from the government is poor but itâ€™s still only opinions. Yes the opinion of a hard Brexit isnâ€™t good but how about someone posting up some positive opinions, and then maybe thereâ€™ll be a balanced argument.

For example, the (cheaper)imports from India are expected to rise from 8% to 26% in the first 2 years because of the lifting of the current tariffs that make their products too expensive. By the end of 5 years the projection is 32%, As manufacturing takes advantage of the upturn.

Thatâ€™s only a projection, just like the scaremongering thatâ€™s flowing in full force at present. Neither are fake news, and neither of them will become facts until a particular scenario becomes reality. And neither are reality yet.
		
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Fair enough.  And if businesses recognised the future opportunities such as those from India that you suggest (with associated additional immigration let's not forget) then they might not be expressing their concerns - but they are expressing them.

What is not 'fake news' is the worry and concern that some businesses are actually feeling and expressing - these are not projections - these are real and now.  

And witness Marcus Fysh - what an empty vessel of an MP - telling a trade body representative that actually no matter what his concerns might be - these concerns are wrong and stupid - and in fact the ONLY thing that matters is delivering the will of the people.  It takes a blinkered fool to think like that.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If an official trade body holds an opinion that it then expresses - then that is *not *Fake News.  That is their understanding of a future Reality.  Now you might not agree with it but it is not 'fake'.  

Stating as _*true* _something that is demonstrably and factually *not* true, and presenting that to the public as news - then that is 'fake news'.
		
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So, as a re-cap anything negative about indyref1 is fake and lies and anything negative about B****t is honest and true...


To be fair to the Beeb, on Countryfile, they had a bit about the Strawberry Sikh who was positive about the future... 
Love conquers all etc... Top top bloke...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			So, as a re-cap anything negative about indyref1 is fake and lies and anything negative about B****t is honest and true...


To be fair to the Beeb, on Countryfile, they had a bit about the Strawberry Sikh who was positive about the future... 
Love conquers all etc... Top top bloke...
		
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Don;t know about indyref1...

Didn't get a vote - and if I lived in Scotland and did then I don't know how I'd have voted - as I'd have seen things from a living-in-Scotland perspective rather than a living-in-England one


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2018)

Anyone who still thinks the BBC is an 'honest enquirer' should watch London Calling.

It is a one hour documentary so be prepared to have your core beliefs challenged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXQYuLUAbyw

Better be quick before the BBC takes it down.


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fair enough.  And if businesses recognised the future opportunities such as those from India that you suggest (with associated additional immigration let's not forget) then they might not be expressing their concerns - but they are expressing them.

What is not 'fake news' is the worry and concern that some businesses are actually feeling and expressing - these are not projections - these are real and now.  

And witness Marcus Fysh - what an empty vessel of an MP - telling a trade body representative that actually no matter what his concerns might be - these concerns are wrong and stupid - and in fact the ONLY thing that matters is delivering the will of the people.  It takes a blinkered fool to think like that.
		
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"Worry and concerns" are not facts, they are opinion based. Valid opinions IF a hard Brexit comes to pass, and valid opinions in terms of making sure plans are in place for it. But any business will look at costs, and changes to business practices will incur costs. They are wanting no extra costs, obviously, and will say pretty much anything, understandably, to avoid extra costs.

That still doesn't take away the fact that reduced or no tariffs, post-Brexit, is an upside for every buyer, that's members of the public and businesses that are buying from Non-EU countries or will switch to Non-EU countries.

To a large extent, I disagree with businesses highlighting their concerns in public and, in effect, trying to influence the public. The truth should come from the politicians(hahahahaha) when they are at the stump. Business shouldn't influence a public vote as they are only concerned about themselves.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			"Worry and concerns" are not facts, they are opinion based. Valid opinions IF a hard Brexit comes to pass, and valid opinions in terms of making sure plans are in place for it. But any business will look at costs, and changes to business practices will incur costs. They are wanting no extra costs, obviously, and will say pretty much anything, understandably, to avoid extra costs.

That still doesn't take away the fact that reduced or no tariffs, post-Brexit, is an upside for every buyer, that's members of the public and businesses that are buying from Non-EU countries or will switch to Non-EU countries.

To a large extent, I disagree with businesses highlighting their concerns in public and, in effect, trying to influence the public. The truth should come from the politicians(hahahahaha) when they are at the stump. Business shouldn't influence a public vote as they are only concerned about themselves.
		
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If I am worried about something today then it is a fact that I am worried.  What I might be worried about might be my projection -  but that does not make my worry less real.  So when a businessman or trade group representative states he is worried - that is a fact - it is not fake news - it is factual news.

If businesses do not see the government doing anything to assuage their concerns then it is incumbent upon the business to raise awareness of these concerns.  Were they to keep quiet and the concerns they held come to pass - they will be castigated for not telling us...no?


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I am worried about something today then it is a fact that I am worried.  What I might be worried about might be my projection -  but that does not make my worry less real.  So when a businessman or trade group representative states he is worried - that is a fact - it is not fake news - it is factual news.

If businesses do not see the government doing anything to assuage their concerns then it is incumbent upon the business to raise awareness of these concerns.  Were they to keep quiet and the concerns they held come to pass - they will be castigated for not telling us...no?
		
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In an earlier post today I said it isn't fake news, so why keep repeating it? Equally, the "worry" has to be realistic and balanced. Governments do make decisions that impact on many industries at different times - I could tell you some stories about Tata Steel and SSi on Teesside that would make your toes curl. Businesses can't run to the govt for everything. I agree that Brexit will impact businesses to a greater or lesser extent. Some will win and some will lose but the electorate have chosen this path, as much as I disagree with it, and its not for business to publicly influence it, inc. the Wetherspoon's CEO who is a supporter of Brexit.

As for the businesses highlighting it. The Japanese got a trade delegation together, along with Japanese politicians, and visited Downing Street. Far more professional than using the media as Airbus et al have done.


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## bobmac (Aug 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fair enough.  And if businesses recognised the future opportunities such as those from India that you suggest (*with associated additional immigration let's not forget) *

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*


*Can you explain why cheaper imports would lead to additional immigration please?


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## MegaSteve (Aug 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don;t know about indyref1...

Didn't get a vote - and if I lived in Scotland and did then I don't know how I'd have voted - as I'd have seen things from a living-in-Scotland perspective rather than a living-in-England one
		
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Nicely swerved...


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## MegaSteve (Aug 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If businesses do not see the government doing anything to assuage their concerns then it is incumbent upon the business to raise awareness of these concerns.  Were they to keep quiet and the concerns they held come to pass - they will be castigated for not telling us...no?
		
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Bremoaner in chief, PM Major, said it should be about people people peopleâ€¦

He didn't say anything about it being for business business business...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

bobmac said:



			[/B]Can you explain why cheaper imports would lead to additional immigration please?
		
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Because the Indian government have said that they expect any future UK-India trade deal will have to include the UK accepting more immigrants from India?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Nicely swerved...
		
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How swerved? - you raised indyref1.  I didn't have a vote in indyref1 - and as I live in England and have done for near 35yrs I have no idea how I might have felt were I to have been living in Scotland at the time of that referendum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Bremoaner in chief, PM Major, said it should be about people people peopleâ€¦

He didn't say anything about it being for business business business...
		
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business business business employs people people people


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## MegaSteve (Aug 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			business business business employs people people people
		
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I am guessing you've never worked for a business that sends good folk down the road one week then containerises the kit 'n caboodle they worked the following week shipping it off elsewhere all because being in the poxy EU facilitates them doing so... Also allows them 100% to put the local workforce on ignore to give preferential treatment to incomers... And I am not just talking about here in the UK!


If being in is so important to business then let them pick up the tab...
Hey ho now that would be original...
Business paying its way...

Like the tool that backed Ms Miller...
Happy to fund her but not quite so happy at paying his workforce correctly...


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## bobmac (Aug 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because the Indian government have said that they expect any future UK-India trade deal will have to include the UK accepting more immigrants from India?
		
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Do you mean what Yk Sinha, India's High Commissioner said?

â€œIâ€™m not talking about unfettered access or unrestricted travel, Iâ€™m talking about movement of professionals, movement of doctors, technicians, engineers.''


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## adam6177 (Aug 1, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone who still thinks the BBC is an 'honest enquirer' should watch London Calling.

It is a one hour documentary so be prepared to have your core beliefs challenged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXQYuLUAbyw

Better be quick before the BBC takes it down. 

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That was a fascinating (but not surprising) watch..... I wonder how much longer the BBC will run in its currently funded form.  I for one would happily do away with their programming.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 1, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			That was a fascinating (but not surprising) watch..... I wonder how much longer the BBC will run in its currently funded form.  I for one would happily do away with their programming.
		
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And be left with either constant adverts or subscription telly - no thanks

Regardless of what their views in the BBC News are ( i personally couldnâ€™t care less if they are pro or anti Brexit - I have the ability to make my own mind up ) - the wide range of programs they produce cannot be matched by any other broadcaster - thankfully the BBC wonâ€™t be going anywhere because there are millions more that do enjoy them


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## MegaSteve (Aug 1, 2018)

Not that it's got owt to do with the B word...
To shut the Beeb down would be quite a vote loser amongst the demographic that can actually be asked to vote...


And, if there's anyone out there that favours watching Piers ahead of Naga you are in serious need of help...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And be left with either constant adverts or subscription telly - no thanks

Regardless of what their views in the BBC News are ( i personally couldnâ€™t care less if they are pro or anti Brexit - I have the ability to make my own mind up ) - the wide range of programs they produce cannot be matched by any other broadcaster - thankfully the BBC wonâ€™t be going anywhere because there are millions more that do enjoy them
		
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Did you watch London Calling ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 2, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did you watch London Calling ?
		
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No Doon and no interest in watching it - if someone wants to see and find bias they always will. Take your posts for example - everyone knows that 99.9% of your posts have a clear anti English anti BBC anti government bias - we all know it and we all know you are incapable of posting from a neutral point of view and itâ€™s always either Pro Scottish or anti English or both. Itâ€™s the same with SILH always posting anti Brexit or SR posting pro Brexit - itâ€™s just floods the thread and the people who know what they are talking about get drowned out - so a thread that can be informative to people becomes a slagging match between the same that ruined the last thread - thankfully I can get my facts , opinions from other sources and I can make me own mind up - I donâ€™t care if you think the BBC is Bias - itâ€™s a good service imo


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## adam6177 (Aug 2, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did you watch London Calling ?
		
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I wish people would stop quoting his posts (to be clear LP), the forum is so much better without having to read it.

But to address the point made - whether he as an individual is capable of making a balanced and informed decision has absolutely nothing to do with what "the public" are capable of doing.  There are a lot of people that are easily brainwashed and influenced by what the media say and they simply adopt what they've read as their opinion without reading around the subject....I think that should be obvious to anyone with common sense.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 2, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I wish people would stop quoting his posts (to be clear LP), the forum is so much better without having to read it.

But to address the point made - whether he as an individual is capable of making a balanced and informed decision has absolutely nothing to do with what "the public" are capable of doing.  There are a lot of people that are easily brainwashed and influenced by what the media say and they simply adopt what they've read as their opinion without reading around the subject....I think that should be obvious to anyone with common sense.
		
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True...I shall take your advice and stop quoting LP.


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## bobmac (Aug 2, 2018)

If it's decided the will be a referendum on whatever deal we get, what choices would be on the ballot paper?


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## USER1999 (Aug 2, 2018)

bobmac said:



			If it's decided the will be a referendum on whatever deal we get, what choices would be on the ballot paper?
		
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Stay in the EU and give them all your money.

Leave and die lonely and broke.


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## IanM (Aug 2, 2018)

funny how the "you will all starve" messages were issued 48 hours before the MPC say the economic indicators are good enough to raise interest rates


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 2, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Stay in the EU and give them all your money.

Leave and die lonely and broke.
		
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Very astute  :lol:


Lonely , hungry and broke.

The third option would be...â€¦..turn back the clock to 2016 and be rich and happy.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 2, 2018)

bobmac said:



			If it's decided the will be a referendum on whatever deal we get, what choices would be on the ballot paper?
		
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How far would you like this piece of paper shoved up Jean-Claude's butt?


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## drdel (Aug 2, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			How far would you like this piece of paper shoved up Jean-Claude's butt?
		
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His head is so far up there already I doubt he'd notice.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No Doon and no interest in watching it - if someone wants to see and find bias they always will. Take your posts for example - everyone knows that 99.9% of your posts have a clear anti English anti BBC anti government bias - we all know it and we all know you are incapable of posting from a neutral point of view and itâ€™s always either Pro Scottish or anti English or both. Itâ€™s the same with SILH always posting anti Brexit *or SR posting pro Brexit *- itâ€™s just floods the thread *and the people who know what they are talking about* get drowned out - so a thread that can be informative to people becomes a slagging match between the same that ruined the last thread - thankfully I can get my facts , opinions from other sources and I can make me own mind up - I donâ€™t care if you think the BBC is Bias - itâ€™s a good service imo
		
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I am indeed Pro Brexit but I assume that I am entitled to that opinion.  I have looked at the pros and cons of staying or leaving the EU and came to my decision that leaving would be in our overall interest.  I am prepared to consider other views but so far nothing has been substantial enough to change my view.   The fact that I have certain views and can enter in discussion to explain and defend them is IMO quite healthy and democratic although it seems to offend you for some reason, you also hold yourself up as the arbitrator on who knows and doesn't know what they are talking about, some high ground you have found to stand on there!  I dont attack you from arms length like you have just done to me, I rather leave you to your opinions, if you were to post something I disagree with then in the normal way of debate I may or may not decide to reply or challenge what you have said.   You of course are entitled to do the same with my views but I find your above post rather ironic in that you are attacking others on the basis they have entered the arena and given opinions.   Would you suggest the discussion would be better if no one said anything without running it past you first?     I would remind you there is no compulsion for you to read or post in this thread if it offends you, which it clearly does.


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## Foxholer (Aug 3, 2018)

SocketRocket said:





Liverpoolphil said:



			No Doon and no interest in watching it - if someone wants to see and find bias they always will. Take your posts for example - everyone knows that 99.9% of your posts have a clear anti English anti BBC anti government bias - we all know it and we all know you are incapable of posting from a neutral point of view and itâ€™s always either Pro Scottish or anti English or both. Itâ€™s the same with SILH always posting anti Brexit or SR posting pro Brexit - itâ€™s just floods the thread and the people who know what they are talking about get drowned out - so a thread that can be informative to people becomes a slagging match between the same that ruined the last thread - thankfully I can get my facts , opinions from other sources and I can make me own mind up - I donâ€™t care if you think the BBC is Bias - itâ€™s a good service imo
		
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I am indeed Pro Brexit but I assume that I am entitled to that opinion.  I have looked at the pros and cons of staying or leaving the EU and came to my decision that leaving would be in our overall interest.  I am prepared to consider other views but so far nothing has been substantial enough to change my view.   The fact that I have certain views and can enter in discussion to explain and defend them is IMO quite healthy and democratic although it seems to offend you for some reason, you also hold yourself up as the arbitrator on who knows and doesn't know what they are talking about, some high ground you have found to stand on there!  I dont attack you from arms length like you have just done to me, I rather leave you to your opinions, if you were to post something I disagree with then in the normal way of debate I may or may not decide to reply or challenge what you have said.   You of course are entitled to do the same with my views but I find your above post rather ironic in that you are attacking others on the basis they have entered the arena and given opinions.   Would you suggest the discussion would be better if no one said anything without running it past you first?     I would remind you there is no compulsion for you to read or post in this thread if it offends you, which it clearly does.
		
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I'm inclined to agree with the vast majority of SR's reply!

Everyone's *opinion* is exactly that - an opinion! The weighting they give anything that may help/make them form their opinion is their own choice! 

As long as the 'discussion' doesn't descend into personal attacks, then reasonable differences of opinion are, imo, quite healthy! 

Unfortunately, the thread is occasionally, but too often, 'hi-jacked' for a completely unrelated, but still political, purpose! That hi-jacking needs to stop/be stopped!


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## drdel (Aug 3, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I am indeed Pro Brexit but I assume that I am entitled to that opinion.  I have looked at the pros and cons of staying or leaving the EU and came to my decision that leaving would be in our overall interest.  I am prepared to consider other views but so far nothing has been substantial enough to change my view.   The fact that I have certain views and can enter in discussion to explain and defend them is IMO quite healthy and democratic although it seems to offend you for some reason, you also hold yourself up as the arbitrator on who knows and doesn't know what they are talking about, some high ground you have found to stand on there!  I dont attack you from arms length like you have just done to me, I rather leave you to your opinions, if you were to post something I disagree with then in the normal way of debate I may or may not decide to reply or challenge what you have said.   You of course are entitled to do the same with my views but I find your above post rather ironic in that you are attacking others on the basis they have entered the arena and given opinions.   Would you suggest the discussion would be better if no one said anything without running it past you first?     I would remind you there is no compulsion for you to read or post in this thread if it offends you, which it clearly does.
		
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I'm with you on this. As far as I'm aware we have free speech within the bounds of libel and slander.

Anyone who posts on a Forum needs to have as thick-a-skin as they expect of their fellow posters.


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## chrisd (Aug 3, 2018)

So ........ we've finally come to the conclusion that anyone posting contrary views to our own are only expressing their own opinions and therefore we can totally ignore them. 

Thank goodness &#128513;


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## bobmac (Aug 4, 2018)

chrisd said:



			So ........ we've finally come to the conclusion that anyone posting contrary views to our own are only expressing their own opinions and therefore we can totally ignore them. 

Thank goodness &#62977;
		
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As long as they don't express their opinion or someone else's opinion as fact.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2018)

Of course we can change our mind - after all JR-M has

https://metro.co.uk/video/jacob-rees-mogg-suggests-holding-second-referendum-brexit-1739176/


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## Hobbit (Aug 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course we can change our mind - after all JR-M has

https://metro.co.uk/video/jacob-rees-mogg-suggests-holding-second-referendum-brexit-1739176/

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And that's from 2011. Dredging it up a bit Hugh. If you go back far enough you'll find many supporters of the Common Market ave long since changed their mind, courtesy of a lack of a vote on the Maastricht Treaty.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And that's from 2011. Dredging it up a bit Hugh. If you go back far enough you'll find many supporters of the Common Market ave long since changed their mind, courtesy of a lack of a vote on the Maastricht Treaty.
		
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Yes - not yesterday.  But he changed his mind.  His comment was in a debate on a EU referendum and it was specifically about having a second referendum after the negotiations had been completed.  But he has changed his mind - and so, therefore, could the British electorate.

After I have had an offer accepted on a house I want to buy, I have survey carried out (England and Wales).  If the survey finds all sorts of issues and problems with and relating to the house, and subsequent negotiations with the seller come to nowt, then do I continue with my house purchase?  Well I might do if I have absolutely no other choice or I am happy to burden myself with years of problems and costs - but I suggest that that would be a rare occurrence and instead I would pull out of the house purchase. 

I would pull out - not because I didn't want to buy the house - but after having found out more about what buying that house entailed I decided that it just wasn't worth it or just too risky. I would pull out - and most folks would tell me that I was doing the right thing as continuing with such a purchase would be an insane thing to do.


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## Hobbit (Aug 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - not yesterday.  But he changed his mind.  His comment was in a debate on a EU referendum and it was specifically about having a second referendum after the negotiations had been completed.  But he has changed his mind - and so, therefore, could the British electorate.

After I have had an offer accepted on a house I want to buy, I have survey carried out (England and Wales).  If the survey finds all sorts of issues and problems with and relating to the house, and subsequent negotiations with the seller come to nowt, then do I continue with my house purchase?  Well I might do if I have absolutely no other choice or I am happy to burden myself with years of problems and costs - but I suggest that that would be a rare occurrence and instead I would pull out of the house purchase. 

I would pull out - not because I didn't want to buy the house - but after having found out more about what buying that house entailed I decided that it just wasn't worth it or just too risky. I would pull out - and most folks would tell me that I was doing the right thing as continuing with such a purchase would be an insane thing to do.
		
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Not disputing that one bit. Do you expect the bulk of the Tory party to change their mind? Even then thatâ€™s too simplistic. Do you expect MPâ€s from predominantly Leave constituencies to risk their seats by going against their local constituents?


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## drdel (Aug 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - not yesterday.  But he changed his mind.  His comment was in a debate on a EU referendum and it was specifically about having a second referendum after the negotiations had been completed.  But he has changed his mind - and so, therefore, could the British electorate.

After I have had an offer accepted on a house I want to buy, I have survey carried out (England and Wales).  If the survey finds all sorts of issues and problems with and relating to the house, and subsequent negotiations with the seller come to nowt, then do I continue with my house purchase?  Well I might do if I have absolutely no other choice or I am happy to burden myself with years of problems and costs - but I suggest that that would be a rare occurrence and instead I would pull out of the house purchase. 

I would pull out - not because I didn't want to buy the house - but after having found out more about what buying that house entailed I decided that it just wasn't worth it or just too risky. I would pull out - and most folks would tell me that I was doing the right thing as continuing with such a purchase would be an insane thing to do.
		
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I'd suggest this is not the bets analogy.

Suppose you bought a franchise business but then the rest of the franchisees decided to become a corporate group and the original franchise creator wanted ever higher 'central' controls and contributions. 

Would you still stick with it even though it was loosing you money and a long way from the business model you signed up to.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 6, 2018)

What I would like to know is, how is the magnificent Mr Fox is getting on with his 'easiest thing in the world' trade deals.


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## bluewolf (Aug 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What I would like to know is, how is the magnificent Mr Fox is getting on with his 'easiest thing in the world' trade deals.
		
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I don't know, but it's not a good sign when Sky News turn on you. If Murdoch isn't cheerleading you on then you've not got much of a future in modern Tory politics.

https://news.sky.com/story/europe-really-doesnt-need-us-as-much-as-we-need-them-11462776


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Not disputing that one bit. Do you expect the bulk of the Tory party to change their mind? Even then thatâ€™s too simplistic. Do you expect MPâ€s from predominantly Leave constituencies to risk their seats by going against their local constituents?
		
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Well maybe our MPs should each and every one do a 'Town Hall' in their constituency as Senators and Congressmen in the States do during recesses.  An MP should explain to their constituents the rationale for their views on No Deal and on whether or not a second referendum should be considered.

And they should stand by their views - and if they get dumped by their electorate then so be it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2018)

drdel said:



			I'd suggest this is not the bets analogy.

Suppose you bought a franchise business but then the rest of the franchisees decided to become a corporate group and the original franchise creator wanted ever higher 'central' controls and contributions. 

Would you still stick with it even though it was loosing you money and a long way from the business model you signed up to.
		
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You can change your mind and leave if that is what you want to do.  But if in the process of leaving you discover that there might not be anything better for you out there you might change your mind and stick with it.  I have no idea how often your analogy actually happens - but I suggest that there are not that many who have found themselves in that situation.  

I suggest that house buying and getting a bum survey and/or search is something many of us have experienced or feared.  And we all know what we'd do.  We'd change our mind.  And we are able and allowed under law to change our mind even although we have made an offer that has been accepted - we are not committed to buying the house until we have exchanged - we can always change our mind and pull out.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What I would like to know is, how is the magnificent Mr Fox is getting on with his 'easiest thing in the world' trade deals.
		
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The Fantastic Mr Fox is wriggling like a worm on a hook.  Blaming the EU for it's intransigence in negotiations when he and we all *know* that what has made the negotiation very difficult are Mrs May's Red Lines - leaving the SM and the CU - and no longer freedom of movement. Does Mr Fantastic Fox think we are stupid?  After Art50 was triggered and before she laid down these lines there was plenty of scope for negotiation.  As soon as they were put down that scope shrunk massively - and May, Davis, Fox et al knew exactly that that would happen but kept the leave constituency in the dark - pretending that a deep and meaningful new form of relationship was possible - when they knew all along it wasn't.

And so we are where we are today.  A Frankenstein's monster of a Deal being put to the EU, cobbled together from anything May could find that might work as a whole - but that in fact simply makes up a monster that is not surprisingly viewed as repulsive by hardline leavers - and is rejected by just about everyone who views it.  A deal which like Frankenstein's monster will end up rejected by all and out in the cold - neither wanted nor loved by anybody.


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			.

And so we are where we are today.  A Frankenstein's monster of a Deal being put to the EU, cobbled together from anything May could find that might work as a whole - but that in fact simply makes up a monster that is not surprisingly viewed as repulsive by hardline leavers - and is rejected by just about everyone who views it.  A deal which like Frankenstein's monster will end up rejected by all and out in the cold - neither wanted nor loved by anybody.
		
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I think May's proposal(Brino), and it is a proposal disgustingly put together by May's own team behind David Davis' back, undermining David Davis, is a good compromise deal. Yes it crosses the EU's red lines but the EU have been known to cross their own red lines when it suits them, e.g. the letting in of 10 countries in 2004(?) none of which could pass the financial requirements for entry. And many EU countries then restricted Freedom of Movement for several years from those countries. The EU can compromise when it wants to.

Aside from that, it was very interesting to see the calculations done on UK imports and exports, using WTO rules and the EU's tariff tables. Forget UK contributions being a number that will hurt the EU, and it will, the balance in tariff payments is over Â£300bn a year. 20% of French farmer's produce is exported to the UK, and we all know how militant the French farmers can be.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 7, 2018)

The Scottish Times adds to 'the headline is always a lie' saga.

Headline 'Scots Firms Split on Brexit'
Scroll down to results of the poll...â€¦â€¦.6% think it will be a positive move, 44% think negative, the rest say its to early to know/undecided/wait and see.
Surprised they did not go with the 56% say Brexit is not a negative version.:angry:


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## User62651 (Aug 7, 2018)

I know he's a person who rubs many up the wrong way largely because of the Iraq war but I caught a fair bit of Tony Blair's 'Defence of Globalisation' speech and Q&A yesterday lunchtime on the Beeb - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b90gs0/briefings-tony-blair much of which focussed on Brexit.

Aside from his political stance on Brexit I just couldn't imagine May being able to do this, speak at length and then answer open questions and offer clear rational views on a position, the Maybot would have overheated and lost it. Since Blair we've had Brown, Cameron and May, fairly weak PMs all. 
Blair, for me at least, spoke a lot of sense yesterday.


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## Dando (Aug 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What I would like to know is, how is the magnificent Mr Fox is getting on with his 'easiest thing in the world' trade deals.
		
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why am I not shocked that you left out "should be" from his comment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2018)

Dando said:



			why am I not shocked that you left out "should be" from his comment.
		
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It _*could *_have been were it not for May's Red Lines - exactly the sort of ideological constraints that she now asks the EU to be flexible on and that such as Mogg and his ERG cronies demand absolute adherence to from May.


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## Dando (Aug 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It _*could *_have been were it not for May's Red Lines - exactly the sort of ideological constraints that she now asks the EU to be flexible on and that such as Mogg and his ERG cronies demand absolute adherence to from May.
		
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It _*COULD *_have been if the EU actually wanted to try and negotiate rather than act like a spoilt child who has to get it's own way. But I guess that's ok as your beloved EU can do no wrong and its all the Governments fault


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 7, 2018)

Dando said:



			It _*COULD *_have been if the EU actually wanted to try and negotiate rather than act like a spoilt child who has to get it's own way. But I guess that's ok as your beloved EU can do no wrong and its all the Governments fault
		
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I thought Fox was talking about rWorld trade deals being easy 
Any sorted yet, tick tock.


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## User62651 (Aug 7, 2018)

Dando said:



			It _*COULD *_have been if the EU actually wanted to try and negotiate rather than act like a spoilt child who has to get it's own way. But I guess that's ok as your beloved EU can do no wrong and its all the Governments fault
		
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EU will be weakened by Brexit and UK will be weakened by Brexit. Assuming that those who voted to remain somehow love the EU or are siding with the EU over the UK is wrong. Most of us didn't give the EU much thought before the ref, worked ok and more positive than negatives being in EU as far as we were concerned.
This Government called the ref with no or little preparation for a leave result and it's been a shambles from day 1, hard to argue against that.
Why would the EU not protect it's position or want to especially help a member state opting to leave more than it needs to, it did not instigate Brexit. A country that has acted in a cocky, demanding, bullish fashion too.
If shoe was on other foot and UK was not leaving and say it was France leaving, do you really think we as a country would be trying to help France get a good deal with the EU because of some saying French wine and Renault cars will cost us more if we have to pay tariffs on them, we wouldn't care we'd just buy wine elsewhere and non-French cars and tell them to do one.
UK is attempting to cherrypick parts it likes of EU memberhsip and ignoring parts it doesn't like from day one, now in a stand-off of our own making.


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## bluewolf (Aug 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			EU will be weakened by Brexit and UK will be weakened by Brexit. Assuming that those who voted to remain somehow love the EU or are siding with the EU over the UK is wrong. Most of us didn't give the EU much thought before the ref, worked ok and more positive than negatives being in EU as far as we were concerned.
This Government called the ref with no or little preparation for a leave result and it's been a shambles from day 1, hard to argue against that.
Why would the EU not protect it's position or want to especially help a member state opting to leave more than it needs to, it did not instigate Brexit. A country that has acted in a cocky, demanding, bullish fashion too.
If shoe was on other foot and UK was not leaving and say it was France leaving, do you really think we as a country would be trying to help France get a good deal with the EU because of some saying French wine and Renault cars will cost us more if we have to pay tariffs on them, we wouldn't care we'd just buy wine elsewhere and non-French cars and tell them to do one.
UK is attempting to cherrypick parts it likes of EU memberhsip and ignoring parts it doesn't like from day one, now in a stand-off of our own making.
		
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Good post and typifies my thinking as well &#128077;


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## adam6177 (Aug 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			UK will be weakened by Brexit
		
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The only thing I disagree with you on is the above.  There is absolutely no reason that we should be weakened IF we have competent people negotiating our deals.  Unfortunately it seems that is currently not the case.

But I still have to keep banging the drum that my decision to leave wasn't  based on the fact that the next 18-24 months would all be sunshine and roses, its for what we can do in the future for ourselves.  Being in the EU hasn't always been easy going for us....


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## SocketRocket (Aug 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			EU will be weakened by Brexit and UK will be weakened by Brexit. Assuming that those who voted to remain somehow love the EU or are siding with the EU over the UK is wrong. Most of us didn't give the EU much thought before the ref, worked ok and more positive than negatives being in EU as far as we were concerned.
This Government called the ref with no or little preparation for a leave result and it's been a shambles from day 1, hard to argue against that.
Why would the EU not protect it's position or want to especially help a member state opting to leave more than it needs to, it did not instigate Brexit. A country that has acted in a cocky, demanding, bullish fashion too.
If shoe was on other foot and UK was not leaving and say it was France leaving, do you really think we as a country would be trying to help France get a good deal with the EU because of some saying French wine and Renault cars will cost us more if we have to pay tariffs on them, we wouldn't care we'd just buy wine elsewhere and non-French cars and tell them to do one.
UK is attempting to cherrypick parts it likes of EU memberhsip and ignoring parts it doesn't like from day one, now in a stand-off of our own making.
		
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Cherry picking, is that the same as negotiating, did Canada and Japan cherry pick when they negotiated free trade deals without accepting freedom of movement, superiority of the EU  court, not being in the eu customs union etc.


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## JamesR (Aug 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			EU will be weakened by Brexit and UK will be weakened by Brexit. Assuming that those who voted to remain somehow love the EU or are siding with the EU over the UK is wrong. Most of us didn't give the EU much thought before the ref, worked ok and more positive than negatives being in EU as far as we were concerned.
This Government called the ref with no or little preparation for a leave result and it's been a shambles from day 1, hard to argue against that.
Why would the EU not protect it's position or want to especially help a member state opting to leave more than it needs to, it did not instigate Brexit. A country that has acted in a cocky, demanding, bullish fashion too.
If shoe was on other foot and UK was not leaving and say it was France leaving, do you really think we as a country would be trying to help France get a good deal with the EU because of some saying French wine and Renault cars will cost us more if we have to pay tariffs on them, we wouldn't care we'd just buy wine elsewhere and non-French cars and tell them to do one.
UK is attempting to cherrypick parts it likes of EU memberhsip and ignoring parts it doesn't like from day one, now in a stand-off of our own making.
		
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Good post :thup:

The referendum was started without proper planning, the instigation of triggering article 50 was done so without proper planning and the people actually involved with acting it all out seem to be doing so without proper planning.

...and we all know what piss poor planning leads to, don't we?

It's all been a cock up from day 1


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## SocketRocket (Aug 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I thought Fox was talking about rWorld trade deals being easy 
Any sorted yet, tick tock.
		
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Just think about it before rubbishing the man.  He cannot make trade deals while we are still a member of the EU customs union and how do you know what work has been done by people in his department on setting up future deals.  Give the man a chance please


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## PieMan (Aug 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			what work has been done by people in his department on setting up future deals.
		
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Lots is the answer, across a wide number of Government Departments.


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## Foxholer (Aug 7, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Lots is the answer, across a wide number of Government Departments.
		
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I'm a bit unsure whether that's a good sign or a bad one!

And that's with a totally neutral approach to 'the deal'!

Hopefully all these 'deals' will leak across to the EU negotiators so a better 'deal' will result! Of course, they might take umbrage and reject any sort of deal -  purely to show the (supposed) power that 'Brussels' has!

It could become all about egos! Which would be a great shame for both the EU and the UK!


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## Foxholer (Aug 7, 2018)

Wonderful quote from Blair's speech...17:35..

'Up till now negotiations have been undertaken by civil servnts in a state of despair, overseen by politicians in a state of denial!'


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 7, 2018)

Sturgeon demands Brexit Plan B from May at their Edinburgh meeting.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sturgeon demands Brexit Plan B from May at their Edinburgh meeting.
		
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Well, she's a bit late asking for that...
As Ms May is up to about plan X...

I just want delivery of plan A...
Which was/is out means out...


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## Old Skier (Aug 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sturgeon demands Brexit Plan B from May at their Edinburgh meeting.
		
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Wow, bloggers at such high brow meeting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			I know he's a person who rubs many up the wrong way largely because of the Iraq war but I caught a fair bit of Tony Blair's 'Defence of Globalisation' speech and Q&A yesterday lunchtime on the Beeb - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b90gs0/briefings-tony-blair much of which focussed on Brexit.

Aside from his political stance on Brexit I just couldn't imagine May being able to do this, speak at length and then answer open questions and offer clear rational views on a position, the Maybot would have overheated and lost it. Since Blair we've had Brown, Cameron and May, fairly weak PMs all. 
Blair, for me at least, spoke a lot of sense yesterday.
		
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He has spoken a lot of sense for some time now - especially on Brexit - but also on labour.  I have a lot of time for Blair - some real political pygmies around these days compared with him.  If he was in the leadership of a new centre-left party he'd have my vote in two shakes of a lamb's tail.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2018)

Dando said:



			It _*COULD *_have been if the EU actually wanted to try and negotiate rather than act like a spoilt child who has to get it's own way. But I guess that's ok as your beloved EU can do no wrong and its all the Governments fault
		
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Sorry - how can it not be clearer.  The UK knew exactly where the EU would be very, very unlikely to move from in respect of the four freedoms.  This we knew at the outset.   If May had not - *by choice*- set out her Red Lines after Art50 was triggered there would have been significant scope for the EU and the UK reaching a deal.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 7, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, she's a bit late asking for that...
As Ms May is up to about plan X...

I just want delivery of plan A...
Which was/is out means out...
		
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I think she was just winding up the Tory leadership with their constant Plan B jibes in 2014


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - how can it not be clearer.  The UK knew exactly where the EU would be very, very unlikely to move from in respect of the four freedoms.  This we knew at the outset.   If May had not - *by choice*- set out her Red Lines after Art50 was triggered there would have been significant scope for the EU and the UK reaching a deal.
		
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Its a negotiation, for the millionth time!!! 

You don't set out your acceptable position at the outset. The UK set their red lines and the EU set out theirs. Since then, there's been a lot of posturing. They will meet somewhere in-between.

There is still scope for negotiating.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think she was just winding up the Tory leadership with their constant Plan B jibes in 2014 

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Oki dokeyâ€¦ Makes sense then...


So, in forum acceptable language... 
What's your honest feelings on Teflon Tone and his input into the debate...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			EU will be weakened by Brexit and UK will be weakened by Brexit. Assuming that those who voted to remain somehow love the EU or are siding with the EU over the UK is wrong. Most of us didn't give the EU much thought before the ref, worked ok and more positive than negatives being in EU as far as we were concerned.
This Government called the ref with no or little preparation for a leave result and it's been a shambles from day 1, hard to argue against that.
Why would the EU not protect it's position or want to especially help a member state opting to leave more than it needs to, it did not instigate Brexit. A country that has acted in a cocky, demanding, bullish fashion too.
If shoe was on other foot and UK was not leaving and say it was France leaving, do you really think we as a country would be trying to help France get a good deal with the EU because of some saying French wine and Renault cars will cost us more if we have to pay tariffs on them, we wouldn't care we'd just buy wine elsewhere and non-French cars and tell them to do one.
UK is attempting to cherrypick parts it likes of EU memberhsip and ignoring parts it doesn't like from day one, now in a stand-off of our own making.
		
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Good post.  Prior to the referendum the EU rarely if ever impinged on my daily life in any negative way that I noticed or was bothered about - I just didn't give the EU much of a second thought since as far as I was concerned there was much of benefit from the seamless pan-European agreements in place.   

Further - I just dismissed the rantings on TV and in the DM and DT of the Eurosceptics such as Bone and Cash as just ideological extremists who would never be happy in the EU.  It was an error certainly to have not realised that their views could easily be picked up by many if sold to them in a _particular _way - and Johnson - God bless his cotton socks - played a neat game off the festering sore that is Farage - found that way.  

And so to today - simply listening to such as consumer affairs programmes I hear continually the protections and rights afforded us in the UK under EU legislation - they are significant and extensive - much more so than those provided to consumers in the USA for instance - and factually at the moment absolutely nobody knows whether these protections and rights will be maintained when we have left - and if so for how long. 

So just in this one important area of life where we truly can see the benefits of he EU - rights and protections that we have come to take for granted as EU legislation has evolved over the last 40yrs.  Yes - of course leavers and the government will tell us that these rights will be protected after we have left - but there are no guarantees in any of that - we are simply putting the whole lot at risk.  

And for what?  Some vague notion of regaining our sovereignty and taking back control - things that very few of us ever really noticed we had lost if we actually ever had - for benefits to us as members of Joe Public that frankly have been difficult to quantify and understand - and in fact might just be illusionary and never come about.


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good post.  Prior to the referendum the EU rarely if ever impinged on my daily life in any negative way that I noticed or was bothered about - I just didn't give the EU much of a second thought since as far as I was concerned there was much of benefit from the seamless pan-European agreements in place.   

Further - I just dismissed the rantings on TV and in the DM and DT of the Eurosceptics such as Bone and Cash as just ideological extremists who would never be happy in the EU.  It was an error certainly to have not realised that their views could easily be picked up by many if sold to them in a _particular _way - and Johnson - God bless his cotton socks - played a neat game off the festering sore that is Farage - found that way.  

And so to today - simply listening to such as consumer affairs programmes I hear continually the protections and rights afforded us in the UK under EU legislation - they are significant and extensive - much more so than those provided to consumers in the USA for instance - and factually at the moment absolutely nobody knows whether these protections and rights will be maintained when we have left - and if so for how long. 

So just in this one important area of life where we truly can see the benefits of he EU - rights and protections that we have come to take for granted as EU legislation has evolved over the last 40yrs.  Yes - of course leavers and the government will tell us that these rights will be protected after we have left - but there are no guarantees in any of that - we are simply putting the whole lot at risk.  

And for what?  Some vague notion of regaining our sovereignty and taking back control - things that very few of us ever really noticed we had lost if we actually ever had - for benefits to us as members of Joe Public that frankly have been difficult to quantify and understand - and in fact might just be illusionary and never come about.
		
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You don't know whether or not those rights and protections will be improved once the UK has left the EU. All you see, and post, is the negatives.

And if really think that the UK's current rights and protections are EU rights and protections you are sadly mistaken. I get better warranties, and rights and protections here in Spain than you get in the UK. The UK consumer rights are the UK's, not the EU's.

I get a 2 year warranty on everything here. You get 12 months, unless a particular manufacturer has enhanced their warranty in a bid to get more sales.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good post.  Prior to the referendum the EU rarely if ever impinged on my daily life in any negative way that I noticed or was bothered about - I just didn't give the EU much of a second thought since as far as I was concerned there was much of benefit from the seamless pan-European agreements in place.   

Further - I just dismissed the rantings on TV and in the DM and DT of the Eurosceptics such as Bone and Cash as just ideological extremists who would never be happy in the EU.  It was an error certainly to have not realised that their views could easily be picked up by many if sold to them in a _particular _way - and Johnson - God bless his cotton socks - played a neat game off the festering sore that is Farage - found that way.  

And so to today - simply listening to such as consumer affairs programmes I hear continually the protections and rights afforded us in the UK under EU legislation - they are significant and extensive - much more so than those provided to consumers in the USA for instance - and factually at the moment absolutely nobody knows whether these protections and rights will be maintained when we have left - and if so for how long. 

So just in this one important area of life where we truly can see the benefits of he EU - rights and protections that we have come to take for granted as EU legislation has evolved over the last 40yrs.  Yes - of course leavers and the government will tell us that these rights will be protected after we have left - but there are no guarantees in any of that - we are simply putting the whole lot at risk.  

And for what?  Some vague notion of regaining our sovereignty and taking back control - things that very few of us ever really noticed we had lost if we actually ever had - for benefits to us as members of Joe Public that frankly have been difficult to quantify and understand - and in fact might just be illusionary and never come about.
		
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Oh Dear!  So we are back to leave voters not understanding what they were voting for.  That really is a lazy argument and very hackneyed now.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 7, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			If shoe was on other foot and UK was not leaving and say it was France leaving, do you really think we as a country would be trying to help France get a good deal with the EU because of *some saying French wine and Renault cars will cost us more if we have to pay tariffs on them, we wouldn't care we'd just buy wine elsewhere and non-French cars and tell them to do one..*

Click to expand...

Does that not equally apply to Brexit though? If the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a deal with the UK then we just say "Stuff it, we'll get our cars from Japan/Korea/elsewhere and our wine from South America/South Africa/elsewhere". If we go to WTO rules for trade with the EU and adopt a free trade deal with non EU countries then that will reduce our reliance on trade with the EU and build trade with the rest of the world. Not sure EU manufacturers would be tremendously happy with Barnier if that happened.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 8, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Oki dokeyâ€¦ Makes sense then...


So, in forum acceptable language... 
What's your honest feelings on Teflon Tone and his input into the debate...
		
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I always liked Blair until he got his head turned by Bush, money and his ego went in the same direction as Thatcher.
He seems like the only guy who could save the UK in it's present state. 

I see the nice half of the Tory party rank and file are finally starting to make their feelings known.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always liked Blair until he got his head turned by Bush, money and his ego went in the same direction as Thatcher.
He seems like the only guy who could save the UK in it's present state.
		
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Tone carried on from PM Major... Delivering what he wanted rather than what the electorate voted for...





			I see the nice half of the Tory party rank and file are finally starting to make their feelings known.
		
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Nice and Tory in the same sentence 
Rather bold from someone north of the wall...


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## JamesR (Aug 8, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does that not equally apply to Brexit though? If the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a deal with the UK then we just say "Stuff it, we'll get our cars from Japan/Korea/elsewhere and our wine from South America/South Africa/elsewhere". If we go to WTO rules for trade with the EU and adopt a free trade deal with non EU countries then that will reduce our reliance on trade with the EU and build trade with the rest of the world. Not sure EU manufacturers would be tremendously happy with Barnier if that happened.
		
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Great, so I'm going to have to give up Claret and BMWs - this is getting ridiculous now:angry:


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## User62651 (Aug 8, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Nice and Tory in the same sentence 
Rather bold from someone north of the wall...
		
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Now now, we do have 13 Tory MPs these days without whom Treeza would not be PM.....and RuthD of course, politics and electorate aren't that one sided up here - last GE vote share was 28.6% tory v 36.9% SNP v 27.1% Labour. Close to 30% Tory support is relatively high. First past the post distorts things wrt MP numbers as the non SNP vote gets split.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You don't know whether or not those rights and protections will be improved once the UK has left the EU. All you see, and post, is the negatives.

And if really think that the UK's current rights and protections are EU rights and protections you are sadly mistaken. I get better warranties, and rights and protections here in Spain than you get in the UK. The UK consumer rights are the UK's, not the EU's.

I get a 2 year warranty on everything here. You get 12 months, unless a particular manufacturer has enhanced their warranty in a bid to get more sales.
		
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I said quite clearly that we might well be told these rights and protections would be guaranteed - but everything is up in the air - all is put at risk - especially if we end up with _No Deal_ - for what...?  I suggest that the *actual *benefit to Mr Joe Public's daily life as a result of leaving will be minimal compared with the negatives.  Of course I don't _know _that - but we have a lot established that is of benefit to each of us as individuals and, I'd say - little that is negative that leaving will sort.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh Dear!  So we are back to leave voters not understanding what they were voting for.  That really is a lazy argument and very hackneyed now.
		
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...and I might as well just say that your response is lazy and hackneyed - and we go back to promises of a land of milk and honey enabled by Â£350m a week becoming available to spend on whatever we want - evern the NHS (pity that's going to require tax rises to fund...)


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## Hobbit (Aug 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I said quite clearly that we might well be told these rights and protections would be guaranteed - but everything is up in the air - all is put at risk - especially if we end up with _No Deal_ - for what...?  I suggest that the *actual *benefit to Mr Joe Public's daily life as a result of leaving will be minimal compared with the negatives.  Of course I don't _know _that - but we have a lot established that is of benefit to each of us as individuals and, I'd say - little that is negative that leaving will sort.
		
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I'm open minded about what might happen, you're not. I also have faith in the electorate holding the government to account, and I'm sure that the government are well aware that if they get it wrong they will feel it in the ballot box. I'm also aware that there's also many things that aren't good with the EU, just as there are with the UK.

The UK has the chance to adopt best practice from the EU, which I'm sure they will, and take advantage of the freedoms that being outside the EU will bring.

There will be a blip, without a doubt, but not long after that the UK will be in a better place. Selfishly, living in Spain, I want to Remain but that doesn't mean I can't see the upside of leaving. Economically, the EU is stagnating and that means the countries in the EU are stagnating. The big growth areas are outside of the EU, and being afforded more freedoms to chase those opportunities will benefit the UK. It will be hard work but it is very achievable.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and I might as well just say that your response is lazy and hackneyed - and we go back to promises of a land of milk and honey enabled by Â£350m a week becoming available to spend on whatever we want - evern the NHS (pity that's going to require tax rises to fund...)
		
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Oh Dear! Yawn....


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## drdel (Aug 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I'm open minded about what might happen, you're not. I also have faith in the electorate holding the government to account, and I'm sure that the government are well aware that if they get it wrong they will feel it in the ballot box. I'm also aware that there's also many things that aren't good with the EU, just as there are with the UK.

The UK has the chance to adopt best practice from the EU, which I'm sure they will, and take advantage of the freedoms that being outside the EU will bring.

There will be a blip, without a doubt, but not long after that the UK will be in a better place. Selfishly, living in Spain, I want to Remain but that doesn't mean I can't see the upside of leaving. Economically, the EU is stagnating and that means the countries in the EU are stagnating. The big growth areas are outside of the EU, and being afforded more freedoms to chase those opportunities will benefit the UK. It will be hard work but it is very achievable.
		
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Yup.

Anyone who swallows the rhetoric of doom and gloom would do well to take a gander at the ONS data on the UK's export growth. Whatever sections of the press and others determined to talk down the UK say we are still a major world player; which as a small island of 60odd million is pretty good.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh Dear! Yawn....
		
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Yes - just dismiss it - go on - it's just what Leavers do.

BTW - what I posted earlier were my feelings about how the EU impacted - or didn't - my life.  I did not for one second suggest that others not sharing my views were misinformed or did not understand - it was your choice make that accusation of leave voters - I did not make it.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good post.  Prior to the referendum the EU rarely if ever impinged on my daily life in any negative way that I noticed or was bothered about - I just didn't give the EU much of a second thought since as far as I was concerned there was much of benefit from the seamless pan-European agreements in place.   

Further - I just dismissed the rantings on TV and in the DM and DT of the Eurosceptics such as Bone and Cash as just ideological extremists who would never be happy in the EU.*  It was an error certainly to have not realised that their views could easily be picked up by many if sold to them in a particular way - and Johnson - God bless his cotton socks - played a neat game off the festering sore that is Farage - found that way. * 

And so to today - simply listening to such as consumer affairs programmes I hear continually the protections and rights afforded us in the UK under EU legislation - they are significant and extensive - much more so than those provided to consumers in the USA for instance - and factually at the moment absolutely nobody knows whether these protections and rights will be maintained when we have left - and if so for how long. 

So just in this one important area of life where we truly can see the benefits of he EU - rights and protections that we have come to take for granted as EU legislation has evolved over the last 40yrs.  Yes - of course leavers and the government will tell us that these rights will be protected after we have left - but there are no guarantees in any of that - we are simply putting the whole lot at risk.  

And for what?  Some vague notion of regaining our sovereignty and taking back control - things that very few of us ever really noticed we had lost if we actually ever had - for benefits to us as members of Joe Public that frankly have been difficult to quantify and understand - and in fact might just be illusionary and never come about.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - just dismiss it - go on - it's just what Leavers do.

BTW - what I posted earlier were my feelings about how the EU impacted - or didn't - my life.  I did not for one second suggest that others not sharing my views were misinformed or did not understand - it was your choice make that accusation of leave voters - I did not make it.
		
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Didn't you?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Didn't you?
		
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No I didn't.

My post was to simply reflect my feelings about the EU and how it impacted my life - it generally made things easier and better without noticeable negative impacts - that post being made off the back of @maxfli65s post.

I feel that it is unreasonable to take my views about how I felt, flip that on it's head and interpret it as criticism that others have been mistaken in not feeling the same.  And that is what you did.

My comment on Johnson was that he did a good selling job of views previously mostly held by likes of Cash and Bone.  I was admitting that one big mistake made by the Remain campaign was to miss that someone like Johnson could make a huge impact on a constituency that was sitting waiting and open to his sell.  Huge Remain complacency thinking that the views of Bone and Cash just couldn't gain much wider support.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2018)

Guy who has negotiated billions of dollars of trade deals and engaged by the Hong Kong government to negotiate trade deals has a take on Article 50 - that Out means Out and what that then means.  I suppose he doesn't know a trade deal from the back end of a bus...but he knows more about trade deals than I do - so I listened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOQd0BExrAo


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## SocketRocket (Aug 9, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Guy who has negotiated billions of dollars of trade deals and engaged by the Hong Kong government to negotiate trade deals has a take on Article 50 - that Out means Out and what that then means.  I suppose he doesn't know a trade deal from the back end of a bus...but he knows more about trade deals than I do - so I listened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOQd0BExrAo

Click to expand...

So this guy professes to know more than anyone else in the country about leaving the EU!  In that case why didn't he read section two of the article where it states clearly that the leaving country and the EU will negotiate the relationship for the withdraw and a framework for it's future relationship.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			So this guy professes to know more than anyone else in the country about leaving the EU!  In that case why didn't he read section two of the article where it states clearly that the leaving country and the EU will negotiate the relationship for the withdraw and a framework for it's future relationship.
		
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Let's see what Para 2 says

_'the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union'_

And so if we leave with _No Deal_ - and as we are told endlessly by the government and Brexiters _'nothing is agreed until all is agreed'_ where does that leave us?  We have not agreed a Deal and so nothing is agreed - so no framewok agreement.  And even if a framework is agreed Article 50 para 2 tells us

_'The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement'_

Even if we have an agreed framework the treaties will cease to apply - because new agreements might not be in place.  If there is _No Deal _then there can be no agreed framework and hence no basis for any new arrangements.

With _No Deal_ we will leave the EU with all trade agreements with countries arranged by or through the EU null and void.  We then have to make new arrangements - and these take time.

We leave and in WTO terms we will be a third country and WTO tariffs will apply.

Now UK can choose to not apply any tariffs on imports - but why would countries buy goods from UK with WTO tariffs slapped on and that make our costs uncompetitive - they could waive import tariffs on our exports - but why would another country waive tariffs on imports from UK - they have no agreement with the UK and they'd have to waive them similarly from all countries - and they won't.  UK export goods will become a lot more expensive and a lot less attractive proposition.

BTW - the guy is actually saying what the majority of economists and 'folk who know about these things' are saying.  It's actually more that there are a few Brexiters who claim to know better.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2018)

And I loved IDS comment about immigration when countering the recommendation from the CBI to allow immigration where the immigrant makes a nett contribution to the economy and scrap the 10,000 target.  His solution was to allow immigration where there was a vacancy and there was no UK resident with the skills to fill the vacancy.

Now fruit-pickers - hmmm....what skills do they have that many unemployed Brits don't seem to have?  Ah yes - an ability to pick fruit.


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## IanM (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			fruit-pickers - hmmm....what skills do they have that many unemployed Brits don't seem to have?  Ah yes - an ability to pick fruit.
		
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Funny how when talking about importing cheap European Labour, the British unemployed are all l_azy fat scum._

When then same people talk about the nasty Tory PartyThatcher, the same "British Unemployed"...... are_ poor impoverished souls, damaged by capitalism!!_


It's the same people talking about the same people........ hypocrisy of the highest order!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I loved IDS comment about immigration when countering the recommendation from the CBI to allow immigration where the immigrant makes a nett contribution to the economy and scrap the 10,000 target.  His solution was to allow immigration where there was a vacancy and there was no UK resident with the skills to fill the vacancy.

Now fruit-pickers - hmmm....what skills do they have that many unemployed Brits don't seem to have?  Ah yes - an ability to pick fruit.
		
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Fruit pickers only need a seasonal work permit, they should not be given right to full residence, at the end of the season they go back home.  In my opinion people that are unemployed with no useful skills should take this work. I prefer an immigration system that prioritises people with the skills we require, we don't need unskilled people that will need state support.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Let's see what Para 2 says

_'the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union'_

And so if we leave with _No Deal_ - and as we are told endlessly by the government and Brexiters _'nothing is agreed until all is agreed'_ where does that leave us?  We have not agreed a Deal and so nothing is agreed - so no framewok agreement.  And even if a framework is agreed Article 50 para 2 tells us

_'The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement'_

Even if we have an agreed framework the treaties will cease to apply - because new agreements might not be in place.  If there is _No Deal _then there can be no agreed framework and hence no basis for any new arrangements.

With _No Deal_ we will leave the EU with all trade agreements with countries arranged by or through the EU null and void.  We then have to make new arrangements - and these take time.

We leave and in WTO terms we will be a third country and WTO tariffs will apply.

Now UK can choose to not apply any tariffs on imports - but why would countries buy goods from UK with WTO tariffs slapped on and that make our costs uncompetitive - they could waive import tariffs on our exports - but why would another country waive tariffs on imports from UK - they have no agreement with the UK and they'd have to waive them similarly from all countries - and they won't.  UK export goods will become a lot more expensive and a lot less attractive proposition.

BTW - the guy is actually saying what the majority of economists and 'folk who know about these things' are saying.  It's actually more that there are a few Brexiters who claim to know better.
		
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It depends how you define 'No Deal' I think there would not be a situation where the UK and EU slam down their drawbridges and say 'up yours' to each other. Both parties have a lot to lose by doing this and a degree of pragmatism would take place.  If there was no deal on free trade then I think there would be arrangements on other matters such as residential rights for each others citizens, air travel, medicines, security and many other matters.  Be very clear, it is not in the interest of the EU for a complete break away by the UK just as it's not in the interest of the UK. I dont believe the EU will be prepared to inflict the damage to their trade and economy this would inflict.  I may be wrong of course but I doubt it very much.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Fruit pickers only need a seasonal work permit, they should not be given right to full residence, at the end of the season they go back home.  In my opinion people that are unemployed with no useful skills should take this work. I prefer an immigration system that prioritises people with the skills we require, we don't need unskilled people that will need state support.
		
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All good.  IDS plan will see immigration limited to those who have a skill that a vacancy here requires and that can't be filled locally - though not sure I've heard anyway actually *say* locally.  But let's assume that an unemployed 'up north' with a skillset required 'down south' won't be required to move 'down south' - but who knows if it keeps immigration numbers down.


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## USER1999 (Aug 10, 2018)

There will not be a no deal exit. There will be a fudge, an extended transition period, a bit of hedging, faffing about, and a continuation of exactly the same as where we currently are. Life will go on, and both sides will claim victory. Move along, nothing to see.

And at the end of the transition? It will be declared a great success, and a new transition will be announced, but longer.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 10, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			There will not be a no deal exit. There will be a fudge, an extended transition period, a bit of hedging, faffing about, and a continuation of exactly the same as where we currently are. Life will go on, and both sides will claim victory. Move along, nothing to see.

And at the end of the transition? It will be declared a great success, and a new transition will be announced, but longer.
		
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Gosh... You know how to cheer folk up of a Friday evening...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			It depends how you define 'No Deal' I think there would not be a situation where the UK and EU slam down their drawbridges and say 'up yours' to each other. Both parties have a lot to lose by doing this and a degree of pragmatism would take place.  If there was no deal on free trade then I think there would be arrangements on other matters such as residential rights for each others citizens, air travel, medicines, security and many other matters.  Be very clear, it is not in the interest of the EU for a complete break away by the UK just as it's not in the interest of the UK. I dont believe the EU will be prepared to inflict the damage to their trade and economy this would inflict.  I may be wrong of course but I doubt it very much.
		
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WTO Rules is WTO rules.  And Article 50 says that ALL treaties and agreements END when we leave on 29th March 2019 - that's ALL treaties and agreements.  And if we leave with No Deal then that is where we will be - a third country trading under WTO rules - with no agreements in place with the EU of any sort - and working like billy-o to come to trade agreements with other countries as we have lost all of these also.

And so for some period after the 29th March, WTO tariffs will apply to exports from the UK.  And when countries or companies in countries are placing orders in Feb and March for deliveries in April - will they be ordering the UK product that will inevitably now have WTO tariffs applied and will therefore be more expensive.  _Because we are the UK_ might not actually hold much store - and so whilst the world waits for the UK to agree trade deals with each country we lose trade.  Yes - UK might well offer the EU's trade, tariff and adjusted quotas schedule to all prospective trade partners - but every country in the World will have gripes with the EU schedule, and might well want to have some things changed in it before agreeing it with the UK.  That all takes time and meanwhile we lose trade - and loss of trade means loss of jobs and businesses folding.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/no-deal-the-wto-option/

Of course it might all be very different.

And btw - No it doesn't depend upon how you define _No Deal_ - because every Leave voters knows EXACTLY what _No Deal_ means - and therefore it must already be defined and fully understood.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All good.  IDS plan will see immigration limited to those who have a skill that a vacancy here requires and that can't be filled locally - though not sure I've heard anyway actually *say* locally. * But let's assume that an unemployed 'up north' with a skillset required 'down south' won't be required to move 'down south'* - but who knows if it keeps immigration numbers down.
		
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That's never been the case so why should it be now?  I guess you dont agree with this system though as it's not favoring the EU.


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## drdel (Aug 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All good.  IDS plan will see immigration limited to those who have a skill that a vacancy here requires and that can't be filled locally - though not sure I've heard anyway actually *say* locally.  But let's assume that an unemployed 'up north' with a skillset required 'down south' won't be required to move 'down south' - but who knows if it keeps immigration numbers down.
		
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Australia seems to manage a very similar system pretty well.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2018)

drdel said:



			Australia seems to manage a very similar system pretty well.
		
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Yes and most other countries but it's no good speaking logic to SILH. Everything EU = red tint filter on; Everything UK = filter off.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes and most other countries but it's no good speaking logic to SILH. Everything EU = red tint filter on; Everything UK = filter off.
		
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What about UK going to WTO rules as a third country on March 29th off the back of a No Deal.  

Sorry of course - it depends which _No Dea_l we are talking about.  Rather puts in doubt the clarity and certainty over leaving that I am told all leavers have - especially leaving with _No Deal_.  

Were we told that ALL treaties with the EU - of every nature - would have ended when we wake up on 30th March - and that there would be NONE in place to replace them; and did we have explained to us and all actually understand what that meant for our trade and all other dealing with the EU, and ALL our trade arrangements with non-EU countries that were based upon us being in the EU.  Did we all really know?

And did we all understand what being a third country means in WTO terms - and that our status would change to that under WTO rules from that which we have now?  Did we know.  Of course we did.  It was obvious.

We all knew all that I suppose - we all knew the implications and ramifications for March 30th and the short to medium term thereafter.  We knew all of this, but it didn't really matter anyway because we were taking back control - regaining our (never lost) sovereignty - and most importantly - because we know this through polls - we could decide who we let in and when.  And we'd all feel the better for it.

Well _*I*_ never knew.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What about UK going to WTO rules as a third country on March 29th off the back of a No Deal.  

Sorry of course - it depends which _No Dea_l we are talking about.  Rather puts in doubt the clarity and certainty over leaving that I am told all leavers have - especially leaving with _No Deal_.  

Were we told that ALL treaties with the EU - of every nature - would have ended when we wake up on 30th March - and that there would be NONE in place to replace them; and did we have explained to us and all actually understand what that meant for our trade and all other dealing with the EU, and ALL our trade arrangements with non-EU countries that were based upon us being in the EU.  Did we all really know?

And did we all understand what being a third country means in WTO terms - and that our status would change to that under WTO rules from that which we have now?  Did we know.  Of course we did.  It was obvious.

We all knew all that I suppose - we all knew the implications and ramifications for March 30th and the short to medium term thereafter.  We knew all of this, but it didn't really matter anyway because we were taking back control - regaining our (never lost) sovereignty - and most importantly - because we know this through polls - we could decide who we let in and when.  And we'd all feel the better for it.

Well _*I*_ never knew.
		
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Pleased for your enlightenment


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## chrisd (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well _*I*_ never knew.
		
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Well we all did &#128077;


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Well we all did &#128077;
		
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Sure - so perhaps you'll explain to this Remain thicko what will *actually *happen on 30th March if there is _No Deal_, given Article 50 tells us very clearly and explicitly that all deals of every sort will be null and void - and also explain why very experienced international trade deal-making businessmen are wrong.


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## Old Skier (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			very experienced international trade deal-making businessmen are wrong.
		
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There have been very experienced international deal-makers who say the exact opposite to those that you have quoted. You as the glass half empty merchant choose to accept the negative while the half full ones choose the positive but as always NOBODY KNOWS so stop pretending otherwise.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 11, 2018)

Whatever I want I simply do not believe there'll be a 'no deal' outcome...
Irrespective of what so called 'experts' are voicing as OPINIONS...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Whatever I want I simply do not believe there'll be a 'no deal' outcome...
Irrespective of what so called 'experts' are voicing as OPINIONS...
		
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Actually sounds like the Chequers proposal may be getting some degree of approval within in the EU27 - albeit requiring UK to concede around ending of freedom of movement.  And therein lies the rub...do I hear the ERG Moggies sharpening their claws...?

And if what is agreed with the EU is knocked back then we are back to _No Deal_.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Actually sounds like the Chequers proposal may be getting some degree of approval within in the EU27 - albeit requiring UK to concede around ending of freedom of movement.  .
		
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As blunt as I am with regard Brussels I am more than realistic that concessions of some level would be part 'n parcel...
And, I am fairly confident that reflects the feelings of the vast majority of leavers...


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## chrisd (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sure - so perhaps you'll explain to this Remain thicko what will *actually *happen on 30th March if there is _No Deal_, given Article 50 tells us very clearly and explicitly that all deals of every sort will be null and void - and also explain why very experienced international trade deal-making businessmen are wrong.
		
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It's not my job to educate the Remoaners.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			As blunt as I am with regard Brussels I am more than realistic that concessions of some level would be part 'n parcel...
And, *I am fairly confident that reflects the feelings of the vast majority of leavers*...
		
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I wish I could share your optimism.  However there are - I fear - too many Moggies out there - who take their lead from him and the likes of Bone, Cash, Redwood, Jenkin, Dorries, Leadsome (oh good grief - what a bunch) and Johnson (nuff said).  For whom any weakening on absolute immigration control will be unacceptable and 'not what we voted for' - the Brexit-means-Brexit Brigade.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 11, 2018)

chrisd said:



			It's not my job to educate the Remoaners.
		
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Well you could try - because I need to understand why I, and many others who know a great deal more about this stuff than I, are wrong and that I am worrying unnecessarily.  Leavers seem to know why I am wrong - avoiding explaining simply suggests that Leavers actually don't know - or they don't but daren't tell.  

So pray tell.  What will happen on 30th March to our trading and other relationships with the EU and across the world in the event of _No Deal._  It may be complex, but it must be easy to explain in layman's terms because all Leave voters understand it - apparently.  I must have missed the explanation during the run up to the Referendum.


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## chrisd (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well you could try - because I need to understand why I, and many others who know a great deal more about this stuff that I, are wrong - Leavers seem to know why I am wrong - avoidance simply suggests that Leavers actually don't know - or they don't but daren't tell.  

So pray tell.  What will happen on 30th March to our trading and other relationships with the EU and across the world in the event of _No Deal._  It may be complex, but it must be easy to explain in layman's terms because all Leave voters understand it - apparently.  I must have missed the explanation during the run up to the Referendum.
		
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You dont need to know, you'll find out when it happens


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## MegaSteve (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I fear - too many Moggies out there - .
		
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Can't ever see me rubbin' shoulders with many/any 'Moggies'...

Been banned from my local con club as I didn't know when best to keep my trap shut...


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## Old Skier (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wish I could share your optimism.  However there are - I fear - too many Moggies out there - who take their lead from him and the likes of Bone, Cash, Redwood, Jenkin, Dorries, Leadsome (oh good grief - what a bunch) and Johnson (nuff said).  For whom any weakening on absolute immigration control will be unacceptable and 'not what we voted for' - the Brexit-means-Brexit Brigade.
		
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I think you'll find that most of us are educated enough to make up our own minds and are not stupid enough to let minority outburst on rant radio and the Daily Mail influence our thought process.


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## drdel (Aug 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well you could try - because I need to understand why I, and many others who know a great deal more about this stuff than I, are wrong and that I am worrying unnecessarily.  Leavers seem to know why I am wrong - avoiding explaining simply suggests that Leavers actually don't know - or they don't but daren't tell.  

So pray tell.  What will happen on 30th March to our trading and other relationships with the EU and across the world in the event of _No Deal._  It may be complex, but it must be easy to explain in layman's terms because all Leave voters understand it - apparently.  I must have missed the explanation during the run up to the Referendum.
		
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International companies will have ongoing contracts. There's a whole industry of Freight Forwarding out there that work with the Airfreight and shipping industry that will facilitate trade. Their systems and multi-lingual staff can handle the complex  variations in tax and duty without breaking into a sweat. 

Worry not life will carry on much as before  despite politicians.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 13, 2018)

drdel said:



			Worry not life will carry on much as before  despite politicians.
		
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Wish I could share your enthusiasm but this is happening even before our hard Brexit.

https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/...-being-stopped-at-heathrow-security-1-4783435


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## Slime (Aug 13, 2018)

That's possibly the worst website I've ever visited!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 13, 2018)

Slime said:



			That's possibly the worst website I've ever visited!
		
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The Hootsmon:lol:

Recently changed ownership.
Used to be an ultra unionist mouthpiece but circulation figures dropped like a stone.
Insulting the intelligence of nearly 50% of your prospective customers is never a good business model. 

It seems to be a bit more politically neutral now [apart from it's letters page ] so we shall wait and see.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 15, 2018)

A little light relief !

https://twitter.com/SarahDuggers/status/1029514363122659328?s=19


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			I think you'll find that most of us are educated enough to make up our own minds and are not stupid enough to let minority outburst on rant radio and the Daily Mail influence our thought process.
		
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Indeed - you got it spot on - most of us *here*.

If you don't listen to LBC I struggle with your description of it as 'rant radio' - the main contributors and presenters are - in the main - trying to inform and understand opinion.  Many of the topics covered are covered very seriously, thoroughly and without sensation.

It is true that there is quite a lot of ranting from callers on Brexit - but if you'd care to listen you'll hear views expressed that make it very clear that on Brexit not all who voted to Leave had the foggiest idea about the implications of what they were voting for, and indeed often express views that you should find abhorrent. 

Yes there are Remain callers who might not understand the impact and influence of the EU on their lives - but they are by definition mostly happy with their lot - or believe that leaving the EU won't sort their problems.  But they are not for jumping into nowhere for the most ill-informed or spurious reasons.  And you'll hear a lot of that on LBC if you ever cared to listen rather than simply dismiss.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2018)

drdel said:



			International companies will have ongoing contracts. There's a whole industry of Freight Forwarding out there that work with the Airfreight and shipping industry that will facilitate trade. Their systems and multi-lingual staff can handle the complex  variations in tax and duty without breaking into a sweat. 

Worry not life will carry on much as before  despite politicians.
		
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And what supported these existing contracts and the trade the freight companies might be able to facilitate? EU legislation, standards, tariffs and quotas I suggest - all of which will be null and void as all EU agreements the UK is part of *will *cease to apply to the UK on 30th March (Article 50 Para 3)

Your statement is full of assumptions, assertions and wishful thinking.


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## bobmac (Aug 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Your statement is full of assumptions, assertions and wishful thinking.
		
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Much the same as nearly every post you've made in the last 2 years


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## MegaSteve (Aug 16, 2018)

Romania's Mr Big [number one on the most wanted list] was arrested in Watford yesterday and its quite likely he'll be winging his way back there PDQ... Cross border co-operation, [according to the 'experts'], of this type, would cease... Really can't see it myself...


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## Hobbit (Aug 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And what supported these existing contracts and the trade the freight companies might be able to facilitate? EU legislation, standards, tariffs and quotas I suggest - all of which will be null and void as all EU agreements the UK is part of *will *cease to apply to the UK on 30th March (Article 50 Para 3)

Your statement is full of assumptions, assertions and wishful thinking.
		
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And you are assuming that a deal won't be done.


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## drdel (Aug 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And what supported these existing contracts and the trade the freight companies might be able to facilitate? EU legislation, standards, tariffs and quotas I suggest - all of which will be null and void as all EU agreements the UK is part of *will *cease to apply to the UK on 30th March (Article 50 Para 3)

Your statement is full of assumptions, assertions and wishful thinking.
		
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Perhaps one day you might recognise/give credit that some assumptions, assertions and wishful thinking might originate and be based on expertise. Expressed simply without the need for hyped emotive language.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And you are assuming that a deal won't be done.
		
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Well there are some Conservative Party MPs who seem to be wishing for No Deal and such as Dr Fox in the negotiating and trade seemingly happy entertaining the idea that it is the most likely outcome (possibly as it get's them off the hook in respect of trying to agree a deal  )

I certainly hope there will be a deal as I'm with such as Dominic Grieve in fearing that a _No Deal _(with no transition period etc etc) would be a disaster.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2018)

drdel said:



			Perhaps one day you might recognise/give credit that some assumptions, assertions and wishful thinking might originate and be based on expertise. Expressed simply without the need for hyped emotive language.
		
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Expertise that is no doubt superior to all of that expressed by the wider UK business, manufacturing, industry, commerce, finance and political community - all of whom might know a bit about how we work within EU institutions and agreements and hence what leaving *will* mean.


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## Hobbit (Aug 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well there are some Conservative Party MPs who seem to be wishing for No Deal and such as Dr Fox in the negotiating and trade seemingly happy entertaining the idea that it is the most likely outcome (possibly as it get's them off the hook in respect of trying to agree a deal  )

I certainly hope there will be a deal as I'm with such as Dominic Grieve in fearing that a _No Deal _(with no transition period etc etc) would be a disaster.
		
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might be a disaster.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Expertise that is no doubt superior to all of that expressed by the wider UK business, manufacturing, industry, commerce, finance and political community - all of whom might know a bit about how we work within EU institutions and agreements and hence what leaving *will* mean.
		
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The true experts, on both sides of the argument, are of equal intelligence. And, equally, are making educated guesses about many things. Much of what both sides have said will happen if any number of circumstances come to pass.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Expertise that is no doubt superior to all of that expressed by the wider UK business, manufacturing, industry, commerce, finance and political community - all of whom might know a bit about how we work within EU institutions and agreements and hence what leaving *will* mean.
		
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James Dyson is a fairly informed Leaver


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			James Dyson is a fairly informed Leaver
		
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Yes - James Dyson - it's always James Dyson.  Another few examples please...and the guy who runs a successful pub chain we know of.

In the same way as Patrick Minford is pushed forward as an example of a recognised economist supporting Brexit - it's always Patrick Minford - when most - the vast majority - of economists completely disagree with him.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - James Dyson - it's always James Dyson.  *Another few examples please*...and the guy who runs a successful pub chain we know of.
		
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Robert Edmiston - made millions running IM Group that imports cars (and yet he still supports Brexit despite his business relying on imports)
Lord Bamford - who runs JCB
Michael Freeman - from property developer Argent
Lord Harris - founder of Carpetright
Terrence Mordaunt - from cargo handling company Bristol Port Company
Will Adderley - from Dunelm retailer
Rocco Forte - from Forte hotel chain
Peter Goldstein - Superdrug
David Sisney - MD of Goldman Sachs
Michael Geoghegan - former HSBC chief exec
John Cauldwell - Phones 4 You founder

Glad to be of assistance - and just for you I even ignored Tim Martin from the successful pub chain.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 16, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Robert Edmiston - made millions running IM Group that imports cars (and yet he still supports Brexit despite his business relying on imports)
Lord Bamford - who runs JCB
Michael Freeman - from property developer Argent
Lord Harris - founder of Carpetright
Terrence Mordaunt - from cargo handling company Bristol Port Company
Will Adderley - from Dunelm retailer
Rocco Forte - from Forte hotel chain
Peter Goldstein - Superdrug
David Sisney - MD of Goldman Sachs
Michael Geoghegan - former HSBC chief exec
John Cauldwell - Phones 4 You founder

Glad to be of assistance - and just for you I even ignored Tim Martin from the successful pub chain.
		
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Not forgetting Peter Harris owner of Butlins amongst other leisure businesses...
Think he got into trouble with his funding of the leave campaign...


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## SocketRocket (Aug 17, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Robert Edmiston - made millions running IM Group that imports cars (and yet he still supports Brexit despite his business relying on imports)
Lord Bamford - who runs JCB
Michael Freeman - from property developer Argent
Lord Harris - founder of Carpetright
Terrence Mordaunt - from cargo handling company Bristol Port Company
Will Adderley - from Dunelm retailer
Rocco Forte - from Forte hotel chain
Peter Goldstein - Superdrug
David Sisney - MD of Goldman Sachs
Michael Geoghegan - former HSBC chief exec
John Cauldwell - Phones 4 You founder

Glad to be of assistance - and just for you I even ignored Tim Martin from the successful pub chain.
		
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Emma Pullen, MD of the British Hovercraft Company
John Hoerner, former chief executive officer, Tesco Clothing UK and Central Europe
Luke Johnson, chairman of Patisserie Valerie
Jon Moulton, founder of Better Capital LLP
Rupert Hambro, director of Theo Fennell Plc
Pasha Khandaker, president of the Bangladesh Caterers Association
Damon de Laszlo, chairman of Harwin Plc
John Sclater, former president of Equitable Life


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## IanM (Aug 17, 2018)

Well, appart from all those, you cant name ANY!  :rofl:

And dont expect accademics who have their tenure under treat to dissent from the approved template!


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## Dando (Aug 17, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Emma Pullen, MD of the British Hovercraft Company
John Hoerner, former chief executive officer, Tesco Clothing UK and Central Europe
Luke Johnson, chairman of Patisserie Valerie
Jon Moulton, founder of Better Capital LLP
Rupert Hambro, director of Theo Fennell Plc
Pasha Khandaker, president of the Bangladesh Caterers Association
Damon de Laszlo, chairman of Harwin Plc
John Sclater, former president of Equitable Life
		
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the lists, that he requested, will now get ignored and he'll find something else to moan and whinge about like he always does


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## IanM (Aug 17, 2018)

Killer list....

Tony Blair
Alastair Campbell
Peter Mandelson


All mega Remainers.   Nuff said


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 17, 2018)

IanM said:



			Killer list....

Tony Blair
Alastair Campbell
Peter Mandelson


All mega Remainers.   Nuff said
		
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Killer list 2 all numpties.


Nigel Farage
Boris Johnson
Michael Gove.

:lol:


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## IanM (Aug 17, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Killer list 2 all numpties.


Nigel Farage
Boris Johnson
Michael Gove.

:lol:
		
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you need to try harder............. my list magaged to get 100s of thousands killed, your list only disagree with you over the EU


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## User62651 (Aug 17, 2018)

IanM said:



			you need to try harder............. my list magaged to get 100s of thousands killed, your list only disagree with you over the EU
		
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Nope, we were only doing our usual yes sir no sir routine to the Americans, they were going into Iraq and Afghanistan with or without Blair and co's support.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 17, 2018)

Perhaps someone who is good at explaining stuff...
Would like a go at the connection between B****t and middle east wars...

Because, for the life of me, I can't see any connection whatsoever even a tenuous one...


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## User62651 (Aug 17, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Perhaps someone who is good at explaining stuff...
Would like a go at the connection between B****t and middle east wars...

Because, for the life of me, I can't see any connection whatsoever even a tenuous one...
		
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Slow Brexit Day.....threads evolve and head off on tangents......but come back to topic again.....usually


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 17, 2018)

Dando said:



			the lists, that he requested, will now get ignored and he'll find something else to moan and whinge about like he always does
		
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Very good.  Makes a change from James Dyson.  Any links to verify any of these.  Any saying that No Deal will be great for the UK?


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## drdel (Aug 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Very good.  Makes a change from James Dyson.  *Any links to verify any of these.*  Any saying that No Deal will be great for the UK?
		
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Why? 

Its pretty inane to ask a question seeking a factual response when only a subjective opinion is possible. But I guess pointless qualitative questions makes deniability a guaranteed reply.


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## Slime (Aug 17, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Perhaps someone who is good at explaining stuff...
Would like a go at the connection between B****t and middle east wars...

Because, for the life of me, *I can't see any connection whatsoever even a tenuous one*...
		
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maxfli65 said:



			Slow Brexit Day.....*threads evolve and head off on tangents......but come back to topic again.....usually*

Click to expand...


.................... and, as if by magic.




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Very good.  Makes a change from James Dyson.  *Any links to verify any of these.  Any saying that No Deal will be great for the UK?*

Click to expand...


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## Slime (Aug 17, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Perhaps someone who is good at explaining stuff...
Would like a go at the connection between B****t and middle east wars...

Because, for the life of me, I can't see any connection whatsoever even a tenuous one...
		
Click to expand...




maxfli65 said:



			Slow Brexit Day.....threads evolve and head off on tangents......but come back to topic again.....usually

Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Very good.  Makes a change from James Dyson.  Any links to verify any of these.  Any saying that No Deal will be great for the UK?
		
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You really couldn't make it up.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Very good.  Makes a change from James Dyson.  Any links to verify any of these.  Any saying that No Deal will be great for the UK?
		
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All of the names I provided came from a list of the biggest 21 financial contributors to the Leave campaign so I assumed that because of that they supported Brexit. No idea on their views on leaving with No Deal.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/twent...-campaign-2017-5/#t11-paul-marshall-100000-10


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## MegaSteve (Aug 17, 2018)

Slime said:



			.................... and, as if by magic.
		
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Slime said:



			You really couldn't make it up.
		
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I am as forthright a poster, for Brexit, as any on here and I still can't see any links between Brexit and middle east wars...

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate?


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## Slime (Aug 17, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			I am as forthright a poster, for Brexit, as any on here and I still can't see any links between Brexit and middle east wars...

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate?
		
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I have absolutely no idea, Steve, I was merely commenting on SILH's timing.


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## Slime (Aug 17, 2018)

Oooops, I've just seen what you're alluding to!
My post #597 wasn't meant to be a post.
The 'You really couldn't make it up' line was supposed to be on the end of my previous post.
I accidentally made another post with the same multi-quote in it and obviously didn't hit the Edit Post option ..................... if that makes sense.
Anyway, apologies for the confusion :thup:.


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## hors limite (Aug 18, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Robert Edmiston - made millions running IM Group that imports cars (and yet he still supports Brexit despite his business relying on imports)
Lord Bamford - who runs JCB
Michael Freeman - from property developer Argent
Lord Harris - founder of Carpetright
Terrence Mordaunt - from cargo handling company Bristol Port Company
Will Adderley - from Dunelm retailer
Rocco Forte - from Forte hotel chain
Peter Goldstein - Superdrug
David Sisney - MD of Goldman Sachs
Michael Geoghegan - former HSBC chief exec
John Cauldwell - Phones 4 You founder

Glad to be of assistance - and just for you I even ignored Tim Martin from the successful pub chain.
		
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They are still in a pathetically small minority. As for Dyson, his idea of supporting the UK was to ship a lot of production to SE Asia!


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 18, 2018)

hors limite said:



			They are still in a pathetically small minority. As for Dyson, his idea of supporting the UK was to ship a lot of production to SE Asia!
		
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Was Christopher Columbus not in a pathetically small minority who didn't think the earth was flat and discovered America as a result, rather than sailing of the edge of it into oblivion?  And remind us how right the overwhelming majority of IT experts who predicted the end of the computing world with the Y2K bug were?


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## Hobbit (Aug 18, 2018)

hors limite said:



			They are still in a pathetically small minority. As for Dyson, his idea of supporting the UK was to ship a lot of production to SE Asia!
		
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If you had 100 idiots saying one thing, and 1 really smart guy, a pathetically small minority, saying something else... your comment is pathetically shallow.

Maybe have a look at Richard Branson's Virgin Group reporting. He's an ardent Remainer who is a resident in the British Virgin Islands. I wonder how much tax he pays? I wonder how much tax the Virgin Group pays? Here's one to start you off. Virgin Care have just posted accounts showing they have done Â£200m worth of business for the NHS last year, and just signed a Â£1.1bn contract for further work. They paid *ZERO* tax on the Â£16m profit they made last year. The Group has a whole makes Amazon look like a corner shop, yet they pay virtually zero taxes... I wonder why he wants the status quo?


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## hors limite (Aug 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			If you had 100 idiots saying one thing, and 1 really smart guy, a pathetically small minority, saying something else... your comment is pathetically shallow.

Maybe have a look at Richard Branson's Virgin Group reporting. He's an ardent Remainer who is a resident in the British Virgin Islands. I wonder how much tax he pays? I wonder how much tax the Virgin Group pays? Here's one to start you off. Virgin Care have just posted accounts showing they have done Â£200m worth of business for the NHS last year, and just signed a Â£1.1bn contract for further work. They paid *ZERO* tax on the Â£16m profit they made last year. The Group has a whole makes Amazon look like a corner shop, yet they pay virtually zero taxes... I wonder why he wants the status quo?
		
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It's a pity that you feel that you have to resort to insults.
I've commented on this before - you say that you are a remainer but time and time again you go into bat for the Brexit side.  I've no wish to defend Branson, Virgin or any company that doesn't contribute properly - it's wrong. However, unless I'm missing something, I don't see how Brexit will make them pay more to the exchequer.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			...
I wonder how much tax the Virgin Group pays? Here's one to start you off. Virgin Care have just posted accounts showing they have done Â£200m worth of business for the NHS last year, and just signed a Â£1.1bn contract for further work. They paid *ZERO* tax on the Â£16m profit they made last year. The Group has a whole makes Amazon look like a corner shop, yet they pay virtually zero taxes... I wonder why he wants the status quo?
		
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The above is rather/very misleading - as this article attests! https://inews.co.uk/news/health/vir...-profits-nhs-contracts-rise-8m-200m-turnover/

Note! It was Virgin Care *Services* (a subsidiary of Virgin Care) that made the profit!

You picked a (the?) profitable part of the parent company that made a loss overall - that's why there's no corporation tax to pay. 

'A spokesman for Virgin Care said: â€œWe have not yet reached a state of profitability overall, and our shareholders are still investing in the growth of the business.  Virgin Care is incorporated and resident in the UK for tax purposes and so, as and when we reach profitability, we will meet our obligations just as we do today...."

This would be exactly the same for any company/set of companies - nothing to do with it being Virgin - or Virgin's residential arrangements!


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## Hobbit (Aug 18, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			The above is rather/very misleading - as this article attests! https://inews.co.uk/news/health/vir...-profits-nhs-contracts-rise-8m-200m-turnover/

Note! It was Virgin Care *Services* (a subsidiary of Virgin Care) that made the profit!

You picked a (the?) profitable part of the parent company that made a loss overall - that's why there's no corporation tax to pay. 

'A spokesman for Virgin Care said: â€œWe have not yet reached a state of profitability overall, and our shareholders are still investing in the growth of the business.  Virgin Care is incorporated and resident in the UK for tax purposes and so, as and when we reach profitability, we will meet our obligations just as we do today...."

This would be exactly the same for any company/set of companies - nothing to do with it being Virgin - or Virgin's residential arrangements!
		
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You are aware that its illegal to show a loss in a separate part of a group to avoid taxes in a profitable part aren't you? Well, how do I know that? The company I used to work for received a Â£10m fine from the EU for using profits in one area to offset losses in another. Apart from him being a Tory poster boy, I'd expect some serious investigating being done. The way he structures his companies, so that there is always a loss making element, is a bit dodgy to say the least. But don't hold your breath.

But seen as you've seen fit to have a look at Mr Branson, maybe have a look at how he's "recently" sold his house to his children. The house was signed into the children's names several years ago, but then sold to them very recently at a way below market price. That in itself isn't illegal, i.e. the signing it into their name, but then "selling" it later is. And then to sell it way below book price to avoid stamp duty is also being investigated.


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## Hobbit (Aug 18, 2018)

hors limite said:



			It's a pity that you feel that you have to resort to insults.
I've commented on this before - you say that you are a remainer but time and time again you go into bat for the Brexit side.  I've no wish to defend Branson, Virgin or any company that doesn't contribute properly - it's wrong. However, unless I'm missing something, I don't see how Brexit will make them pay more to the exchequer.
		
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I'm sorry you feel like you've been insulted but, sounding a little petty, you started it a few days ago with your "contrary" post. If you can't take it, don't dish it.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You are aware that its illegal to show a loss in a separate part of a group to avoid taxes in a profitable part aren't you? Well, how do I know that? The company I used to work for received a Â£10m fine from the EU for using profits in one area to offset losses in another. Apart from him being a Tory poster boy, I'd expect some serious investigating being done. The way he structures his companies, so that there is always a loss making element, is a bit dodgy to say the least. But don't hold your breath.

But seen as you've seen fit to have a look at Mr Branson, maybe have a look at how he's "recently" sold his house to his children. The house was signed into the children's names several years ago, but then sold to them very recently at a way below market price. That in itself isn't illegal, i.e. the signing it into their name, but then "selling" it later is. And then to sell it way below book price to avoid stamp duty is also being investigated.
		
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Trading losses CAN offset profits from other parts of a Group!
See here for details! https://www.gov.uk/guidance/corporation-tax-calculating-and-claiming-a-loss
Good to see that dodgy practices ARE investigated! I'm sure the 'proper authorities' will be checking Virgin Care's 'arrangements', though I expect a 'clean bill of health'!   

I'd suspect that 'your' company's arrangements were different, thus the EU's interest that resulted in the fine!   

Branson's personal arrangements are not my concern, nor particularly relevant to this topic - though they may indicate an attitude/approach!

But I'd suggest you picked a 'bad' example for your argument, as well as getting some details wrong! Not your usual standard! Would make (or made) good headlines in some red-tops though!


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## hors limite (Aug 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I'm sorry you feel like you've been insulted but, sounding a little petty, you started it a few days ago with your "contrary" post. If you can't take it, don't dish it.
		
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Which post are you talking about?


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## MegaSteve (Aug 19, 2018)

Sort of makes me laugh that folk still feel we should take any notice of what big business says...
They were as much to do with the outcome of the vote as the fools in Brussels...


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2018)

hors limite said:



			It's a pity that you feel that you have to resort to insults.
...
		
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That didn't seem like an 'insult' to me!



Hobbit said:



			I'm sorry you feel like you've been insulted but, *sounding a little petty*, you started it a few days ago with your "contrary" post. If you can't take it, don't dish it.
		
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Now, now...Remember the Rules (Criticise ideas, not users)!

You are correct btw.... Petty indeed!


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## Pro Zach (Aug 19, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Was Christopher Columbus not in a pathetically small minority who didn't think the earth was flat and discovered America as a result, rather than sailing of the edge of it into oblivion?  And remind us how right the overwhelming majority of IT experts who predicted the end of the computing world with the Y2K bug were?
		
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It is correct that the number of people who believe something has no relevance to whether it is true or not. It is a much used logical fallacy.

However your example is a particularly bad one. Not only is it wrong, but Columbus did have a minority belief and he was wrong. Everyone relevant to Columbus knew the world was round because it had been proven beyond doubt a couple of thousand years before he was born. He wanted to sail west around the globe to China.  He couldnâ€™t get funding because people knew the size of the earth, not because they thought it was flat. Columbus believed the earth was smaller than it is. He did get funding and first hit land at roughly the Bahamas. He later sailed further south. He died believing that he had landed in Asia.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 19, 2018)

Fun and games in Edinburgh where a group of folk at a rally told us to demand a second referendum on leaving the EU.
More or less the same group of folks who in 2014 told us to vote naw or an independent Scotland would be chucked out of Europe.

Seemingly they did this without blushing or having the slightest idea how two faced they were.

I think someone asked if the EU vote was to be considered as a once in a lifetime vote.


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## Old Skier (Aug 19, 2018)




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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 19, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Fun and games in Edinburgh where a group of folk at a rally told us to demand a second referendum on leaving the EU.
More or less the same group of folks who in 2014 told us to vote naw or an *independent Scotland would be chucked out of Europe.*

Seemingly they did this without blushing or having the slightest idea how two faced they were.

I think someone asked if the EU vote was to be considered as a once in a lifetime vote. 

Click to expand...

An Independent Scotland wouldnt be in Europe for them to be thrown out in the first place 

Come on Doon - your factual posts are slipping up a little, surely you should be able to do better as you appear to be an expert on it


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 20, 2018)

The 'Peoples vote Scotland' speakers have received such a twitter backlash that they have all closed down their accounts.

They are/were totally out of touch with what is currently happening in Scotland and should have done a wee bit of research before opening their mouths.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 20, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The 'Peoples vote Scotland' speakers have received such a twitter backlash that they have all closed down their accounts.

They are/were totally out of touch with what is currently happening in Scotland and should have done a wee bit of research before opening their mouths.
		
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Are you a member?


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## Old Skier (Aug 20, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you a member?
		
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Dont be silly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2018)

And so today Dominic Raab will lay out the government's contingency planning across many areas in the event of a _No Deal _- in other words he will lay out what a _No Deal _could look like.  

Now wouldn't it have been nice if the electorate had been so informed before voting - because there is nothing *today *about the _No Deal _scenario (there is only one according to Art50) that was not known *before *the vote.  But _Leave _dared not publish such analysis and when _Remain _raised the issues and concerns these were slammed and *dismissed *as _Project Fear_.  

Well now today the government will tell us what _No Deal _could well look like in reality - and I might bet (if I bet) that it won't look that different to what was called _Project Fear_


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## USER1999 (Aug 23, 2018)

You do realise that if we leave with 'no deal', we can still make a deal, if we and the EU want to, at any stage in the future?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			You do realise that if we leave with 'no deal', we can still make a deal, if we and the EU want to, at any stage in the future?
		
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Of course I realise that.  And I know that we most probably would.  But that would be some time after we had left - with all ties with the EU cut, and all deals and arrangements that we have in place through the auspices of the EU made null and void - ended.

And so the government is telling us what that life might look like before we have replacement arrangements in place - or do you not believe him and it is all going to be just OK - regardless of what the FACTS of _No Deal _mean and the implications of all the governments _No Deal_ analysis tells us.


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## Mudball (Aug 23, 2018)

Ahh.. so we have the 'no deal advice'... just more Project Fear .. Remember as Rudy Giuliani says.. the truth is not the truth...  

... Keep Calm and Remoan...


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## Slime (Aug 23, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			You do realise that if we leave with 'no deal', *we can still make a deal, if we and the EU want to, at any stage in the future*?
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course I realise that.  And I know that we most probably would.  *But that would be some time after we had left* - with all ties with the EU cut, and all deals and arrangements that we have in place through the auspices of the EU made null and void - ended.
		
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I really can't believe that deals aren't being brokered as we speak.
I'm sure many businesses are ahead of the eight ball and are working on contingency plans right now, and probably have been doing so for months.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 23, 2018)

Slime said:



			I really can't believe that deals aren't being brokered as we speak.
I'm sure many businesses are ahead of the eight ball and are working on contingency plans right now, and probably have been doing so for months.
		
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Multi nationals may do because they have the capability to move production around the world. Major mfrs may have plans for the weeks immediately leading up to the deadline day. For the rest it is still largely a wait and see situation. After that it becomes a 'roll up your sleeves and get on with it' job. If you import raw materials from Europe because that is the only source then there is little you can do other than build up stocks to make sure you have enough to see you through any initial mayhem. 

The logical planning for my company would be to set up the possible moving of our company, lock stock and barrel, to a new location in Holland or equivalent. Do I do that on the off chance of a no deal? Set up premises, get the removal firm on stand by, have a new house to rent ready, have school places ready, have staff trained and ready, all on the off chance a no deal happens but if it doesn't then thanks but we don't need any of it? No, we sit and wait. 

I will stockpile my raw materials though, and encourage customers to take in orders early if it means beating any possible log jam at the ports. Any problems will be there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 23, 2018)

Slime said:



			I really can't believe that deals aren't being brokered as we speak.
I'm sure many businesses are ahead of the eight ball and are working on contingency plans right now, and probably have been doing so for months.
		
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'ahead of the 8 ball'.

At the end of the day, going forward, what on earth does that mean.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 23, 2018)

There was a girl from our space agency on the box this week...
She was there to talk about our latest satellite launch...

Dan asked her about funding post B****t to which she replied something along the lines of...
I am here to talk science not politics...
Well done young lady...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2018)

Slime said:



			I really can't believe that deals aren't being brokered as we speak.
I'm sure many businesses are ahead of the eight ball and are working on contingency plans right now, and probably have been doing so for months.
		
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Well if you listen to Liam Fox being asked about the deals on the table then there aren't that many.  He tells us that everyone wants a deal with us - well whoop-dee-doop - indeed they might - and they might be looking forward to a much better deal with us than they get via the EU.

Anyway - let's see

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...rade-talks-revealed-non-EU-countries-Liam-Fox

I am sure businesses are putting contingency plans in place for a _No Deal_.  But I suspect that many will be asking why they didn't have this _No Deal_ impact assessment 18months ago to help them budget, plan and implement.  Nothing has changed in respect of what _No Deal_ will mean, but I guess the government didn't want to expose us to the potential risks - aka _The Truth_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Multi nationals may do because they have the capability to move production around the world. Major mfrs may have plans for the weeks immediately leading up to the deadline day. For the rest it is still largely a wait and see situation. After that it becomes a 'roll up your sleeves and get on with it' job. If you import raw materials from Europe because that is the only source then there is little you can do other than build up stocks to make sure you have enough to see you through any initial mayhem. 

The logical planning for my company would be to set up the possible moving of our company, lock stock and barrel, to a new location in Holland or equivalent. Do I do that on the off chance of a no deal? Set up premises, get the removal firm on stand by, have a new house to rent ready, have school places ready, have staff trained and ready, all on the off chance a no deal happens but if it doesn't then thanks but we don't need any of it? No, we sit and wait. 

_I will stockpile my raw materials though, and encourage customers to take in orders early if it means beating any possible log jam at the ports. Any problems will be there._

Click to expand...

Ah - you will be told by some - you are being suckered by Project Fear...


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## Old Skier (Aug 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah - you will be told by some - you are being suckered by Project Fear...

Click to expand...

And you'll be told by others that the end of the world is niegh


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## Mudball (Aug 23, 2018)

Someone told me that many farmers voted to Leave; so why is the Farmers Union crying fowl that they need help and how they will lose out because of Brexit.  Surely you reap what you sow..


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## SocketRocket (Aug 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah - you will be told by some - you are being suckered by Project Fear...

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You are so despotic it's almost unbelievable.


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## Hobbit (Aug 24, 2018)

The management of the Brexit process by the current government is farsical in the extreme. Government? What government? A disjointed group, sorry not a group. A bunch of individuals who donâ€™t have a clue how to portray a united front.

Dominic Rabb said thereâ€™d be not much more than a ripple in the economy, and Liam Fox announces a Â£240million trade deal with China.

Philip Hammond then torpedoes both with dire economic claims. Those numbers are worse than Mark Carney had previously said wouldnâ€™t happen.

Project Fear; to have credibility you have to make credible statements. Apparently the movement of medicines will come to a dead stop. Medicines must be stock piled. Letâ€™s view those comments with some intelligence. The EU imports 45 million packets of medicine from the UK every year, and the UK imports 37 million packets of medicine from the EU.

Two things immediately spring to mind. 1) the UK government has said it will not block the importation of medicines already approved. That means the 37 million medicines already imported will continue to move seamlessly across the border. So why stockpile? 2) will the EU really stop/delay the importation of 45 million packets of medicine, medicine that already pass EU manufacturing regs, and are already approved for use in the EU? Will the EU really put lives at risk?

Without a doubt there will be issues around the lack of deals in some trading areas but the *blanket* hysteria (Project Fear) across areas were it is patently obvious both parties want an agreement, e.g. fisheries, beggars belief. 

And I do wonder why supposedly intelligent people trot out or believe some of this rubbish. I guess it suits their agenda to peddle it as facts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2018)

And so we have proponents of _Leave _saying about Raab's initial set of _No Deal _impact assessment/predictions _'is that it?  Is that all? Load of rubbish all the dire warnings _.  And immediately they follow up commenting on Hammonds's Treasury _No Deal _impact assessment/predictions with _'what a load of rubbish'_

Handy that we can gleefully accept one set of government _No Deal _impact assessment/predictions and reject another.

I might accept both.  I might reject both.  But Cake and Eat It?


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 24, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Someone told me that many farmers voted to Leave; so why is the Farmers Union crying fowl that they need help and how they will lose out because of Brexit.  Surely you reap what you sow..
		
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They are getting their claim for grants in early. The farmers will get roughed up over this long term, EU farming subsidies are protected by the French and Italians in particular meaning they were never going to be reduced, now we will be out the govt will start to cut them. Not next year or the year after but over time the numbers will be reduced. The money some have them have been scoring for years in grants has been obscene and they should be reduced and subsidies will be altered so that farmers receive them for things that suit the country, not just them. Any system where Prince Charles gets millions in subsidies every year has to be wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They are getting their claim for grants in early. The farmers will get roughed up over this long term, EU farming subsidies are protected by the French and Italians in particular meaning they were never going to be reduced, now we will be out the govt will start to cut them. Not next year or the year after but over time the numbers will be reduced. The money some have them have been scoring for years in grants has been obscene and they should be reduced and subsidies will be altered so that farmers receive them for things that suit the country, not just them. Any system where Prince Charles gets millions in subsidies every year has to be wrong.
		
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My cousin is a crofter in the western isles. The sort of 3rd hand tractor that he needs and that he has cost him Â£25,000.  He does not have that money - and nowhere near it - it comes from an EU grant.  Without the grant he does not buy a tractor - a farmer without a tractor no longer farms - and an island community dies.  Just hope that Westminster government is aware of this.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My cousin is a crofter in the western isles. The sort of 3rd hand tractor that he needs and that he has cost him Â£25,000.  He does not have that money - and nowhere near it - it comes from an EU grant.  Without the grant he does not buy a tractor - a farmer without a tractor no longer farms - and an island community dies.  Just hope that Westminster government is aware of this.
		
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This is part of the discussion that will need to be had. Ultimately, should your cousin be treated as a business or a custodian of the land? If a business then he either makes enough money to buy his tractor or he doesn't, his farm folds, he has to get another job. That is what every one else on the island will have to do I suspect. However, if his work protects the environment on the island then he may be able to justify a subsidy. Incidentally, I suspect whether your cousin continues to get a subsidy will probably be down to the Scottish parliament post Brexit, not Westminster.

The govt does not give my firm a subsidy in order to help my business and the people I employ, why should it help farmers who continue to make losses? As I say, it is a discussion that will need to be had.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2018)

Loving the caller into Tom Swarbrick on LBC this morning. Previously an advisor to Mrs May he is a Remainer but committed to delivering the outcome of the referendum in the most painless way possible for the country - and so he is very anti _No-Deal_.  He views it as being a terrible outcome.  

And so 'Mary' called in.  _So Mary - let's just assume that No-Deal is very damaging to the UK and very damaging to every country in the EU - would you see No-Deal as a good thing._ asks Tom. _YES_ replies Mary.  _Oh dear_ - despairs Tom.  

This beaut was followed up immediately by a guy who has decided that NI is holding England *to ransom* and it is NI that will stop a Canada +++ deal (whatever the heck that is).  And caller's solution?  NI gets a referendum on whether it wants to become independent or join the Republic.  Get rid of NI - it's not really part of the United Kingdom - he says.  Just a millstone around England's neck.  Do you not think Scotland would then want such a vote? asks Tom?  Give them one - in fact if English voters had had the vote in Indyref1 then England would have voted Scotland to leave the UK - and that would have been good for the Scots - and good for England.

I love the views of so many Leave voters who phone in to LBC.  They are just great.  But it's hard to not be condescending when your are actually depairing.


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## Hobbit (Aug 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so we have proponents of _Leave _saying about Raab's initial set of _No Deal _impact assessment/predictions _'is that it?  Is that all? Load of rubbish all the dire warnings _.  And immediately they follow up commenting on Hammonds's Treasury _No Deal _impact assessment/predictions with _'what a load of rubbish'_

Handy that we can gleefully accept one set of government _No Deal _impact assessment/predictions and reject another.

I might accept both.  I might reject both.  But Cake and Eat It?
		
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I don't accept Hammond's assessment for one main reason. The numbers used in that assessment were poo-poo'd by Mark Carney weeks ago. Nothing to do with Leave or Remain, its about credibility. If Mark Carney had said them I'd be more inclined to believe there's some substance in them. Hammond has been an extreme disciple of Remain since whenever, just like Johnson on the Leave side. Neither of them are honest brokers.


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## Mudball (Aug 24, 2018)

Nothing changed much in 2 years.. some of the Brexiteers donâ€™t know whatâ€™s happening (via twitter) 


>>Gavin Esler (@gavinesler)
If this were not so sad it would be funny. Arch Brexiteer â¦â€ª@isabyâ€¬â© doesnâ€™t understand the difference between import and export tariffs. After two years the Brexit Bunch donâ€™t have a clue. Have a listen.

https://m.soundcloud.com/bbcradiokent/nodealbrexit-heated-debate


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## Foxholer (Aug 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I don't accept Hammond's assessment for one main reason. The numbers used in that assessment were poo-poo'd by Mark Carney weeks ago. Nothing to do with Leave or Remain, its about credibility. If Mark Carney had said them I'd be more inclined to believe there's some substance in them. Hammond has been an extreme disciple of Remain since whenever, just like Johnson on the Leave side. Neither of them are honest brokers.
		
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Irrespective of whether the numbers are 'perfect', or even either 200% or 50% of the result, they demonstrate the potential for chaos for a 'No Deal' result!

But it is certainly hugely 'in the interest' of both the UK and the EU to make a number of administrative deals, even if these are 'as now' ones. 

I'm certain that these (such as those that allow aircraft to fly between the 2 regions) WILL be made, even if 'headline' deals like membership of Customs Union is, imo, unlikely to happen and other exit 'deal' areas get deferred for a number of years!

Of greatest concern though is the issue of UK's Financial Services deal - and the 'passporting' that allows 'London' organisations to sell anywhere in Europe. If no satisfactorily 'deal' to replace this, then a huge chunk of the economy will simply move away from the UK! Hammond, certainly a devout 'Remainer', might have underestimated the effect of Brexit on GDP might actually be an underestimate!

Here's a link to info wrt Financial Services and UK GDP https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06193

I don't believe Hammond is trying to change Brexit to Remain. Simply warning of the (worst case?) consequences!

I certainly have more faith in Carney's views - he's meant to be independent - though he too has been wrong (on the dire side) with previous Brexit consequences forecasts!


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## drdel (Aug 24, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Irrespective of whether the numbers are 'perfect', or even either 200% or 50% of the result, they demonstrate the potential for chaos for a 'No Deal' result!

But it is certainly hugely 'in the interest' of both the UK and the EU to make a number of administrative deals, even if these are 'as now' ones. 

I'm certain that these (such as those that allow aircraft to fly between the 2 regions) WILL be made, even if 'headline' deals like membership of Customs Union is, imo, unlikely to happen and other exit 'deal' areas get deferred for a number of years!

Of greatest concern though is the issue of UK's Financial Services deal - and the 'passporting' that allows 'London' organisations to sell anywhere in Europe. If no satisfactorily 'deal' to replace this, then a huge chunk of the economy will simply move away from the UK! Hammond, certainly a devout 'Remainer', might have underestimated the effect of Brexit on GDP might actually be an underestimate!

Here's a link to info wrt Financial Services and UK GDP https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06193

I don't believe Hammond is trying to change Brexit to Remain. Simply warning of the (worst case?) consequences!

I certainly have more faith in Carney's views - he's meant to be independent - though he too has been wrong (on the dire side) with previous Brexit consequences forecasts!
		
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He made the statement with so many qualifiers he could have twisted it by 180. British banks underpin major elements of rEU 27's business and governments with a variety of financial instruments not available elsewhere; these can be enhanced and even more competitive after March '19.

The world will not end!! Some items and holidays in the EU might be slightly more expensive ( Many Brits take holidays outside EU without breaking a sweat). 

The UK will be able to set its own import duties on EU products so it could be set at a zero rate if its advantageous to UK. 

Those pseudo-democrats who think we should stay part of the EU might wish to be more concerned that Merkel is trying to ensure that Juncker's successor is a German !!!


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## Mudball (Aug 24, 2018)

drdel said:



			He made the statement with so many qualifiers he could have twisted it by 180. *British banks underpin major elements of rEU 27's business and governments with a variety of financial instruments not available elsewhere*; these can be enhanced and even more competitive after March '19.

The world will not end!! Some items and holidays in the EU might be slightly more expensive ( Many Brits take holidays outside UK with breaking a sweat). 

The UK will be able to set its own import duties on EU products so it could be set at a zero rate if its advantageous to UK. 

Those pseudo-democrats who think we should stay part of the EU might wish to be more concerned that Merkel is trying to ensure that Juncker's successor is a German !!!
		
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Absolutly true...   And the reason they are able to do it is because of the 'passporting' system that allows Brit banks with the license to do so.   In the absense of the passporting system, we operate like Hongkong or New York - which while competitive cannot support the rEU like London does.    Hence the reason why rEU countries are trying to move this business to Europe.  

and just on that subject, dont be fooled to think that passporting only affects the corporate bank.  The profits made from corporate help keep retail banks covered and therfore to some extend provide products that are cheaper e.g. Mortgages, credit cards etc. So lack of passporting will have an indirect impact on your wallet. 

.. but what would i know, i spend some time within our financial institutes..


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## drdel (Aug 24, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Absolutly true...   And the reason they are able to do it is because of the 'passporting' system that allows Brit banks with the license to do so.   *In the absense of the passporting system, *we operate like Hongkong or New York - which while competitive cannot support the rEU like London does.    Hence the reason why rEU countries are trying to move this business to Europe.  

and just on that subject, dont be fooled to think that passporting only affects the corporate bank.  The profits made from corporate help keep retail banks covered and therfore to some extend provide products that are cheaper e.g. Mortgages, credit cards etc. So lack of passporting will have an indirect impact on your wallet. 

.. but what would i know, i spend some time within our financial institutes..
		
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Ok but 'Passporting' is just one facilitating element of these deals. Remember there are two (usually more) parties to such arrangements - if the EU wishes to restrict these products they harm their members interests. There are alternative routes that British institutions can take and that the UK government can assist organisations exploit when it is not shackled by EU restraints.


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## Foxholer (Aug 24, 2018)

drdel said:



			Ok but 'Passporting' is just one facilitating element of these deals. Remember there are two (usually more) parties to such arrangements - *if the EU wishes to restrict these products they harm their members interests*. There are alternative routes that British institutions can take and that the UK government can assist organisations exploit when it is not shackled by EU restraints.
		
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Er!  They'll only be 'restricting' UK interests! EU institutions will simply replace UK ones, either directly or by moving from the UK('London')! The EU financial sector will grow significantly; the UK one will shrink enormously - with consequent significant effect on UK GDP!

Here's an article, admittedly Nov '17, but there hasn't been any fundamental change! The Passport of UK institutions will be lost!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...an-for-banks-economy-pound-euro-a8065131.html

And just exactly what 'EU restraints' are you talking about - for Financial Institutions?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 24, 2018)

drdel said:



			He made the statement with so many qualifiers he could have twisted it by 180. British banks underpin major elements of rEU 27's business and governments with a variety of financial instruments not available elsewhere; these can be enhanced and even more competitive after March '19.

The world will not end!! Some items and holidays in the EU might be slightly more expensive ( Many Brits take holidays outside EU without breaking a sweat). 

*The UK will be able to set its own import duties on EU products so it could be set at a zero rate if its advantageous to UK. 
*
Those pseudo-democrats who think we should stay part of the EU might wish to be more concerned that Merkel is trying to ensure that Juncker's successor is a German !!!
		
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...and won't that be good for UK manufacturers competing with these imports directly or indirectly


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## drdel (Aug 24, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Er!  They'll only be 'restricting' UK interests! EU institutions will simply replace UK ones, either directly or by moving from the UK('London')! The EU financial sector will grow significantly; the UK one will shrink enormously - with consequent significant effect on UK GDP!

Here's an article, admittedly Nov '17, but there hasn't been any fundamental change! The Passport of UK institutions will be lost!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...an-for-banks-economy-pound-euro-a8065131.html

And just exactly what 'EU restraints' are you talking about - for Financial Institutions?
		
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Too simplistic; as I said 'passporting' is one aspect that aids EU centric deals; there are alternative international mechanisms. The EU institutions aren't able to offer/duplicate the same worldwide financial instruments.


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## Mudball (Aug 24, 2018)

drdel said:



			Too simplistic; as I said 'passporting' is one aspect that aids EU centric deals; there are alternative international mechanisms. The EU institutions aren't able to offer/duplicate the same worldwide financial instruments.
		
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Sure there are.. itâ€™s like saying Man U does not need to play in the Premier League or Chamions League..  it can play in the Community Cup or Caraboa Cup- which it will win easily. 

After some time, with not much TV rights money or international following that wants to watch ManU v Guildford or Cleethorpes; the international players leave to play for Paris SG.  Itâ€™s still good news for ManU since it is still winning locally and plays against MLS or China leagues


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## drdel (Aug 24, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Sure there are.. itâ€™s like saying Man U does not need to play in the Premier League or Chamions League..  it can play in the Community Cup or Caraboa Cup- which it will win easily. 

After some time, with not much TV rights money or international following that wants to watch ManU v Guildford or Cleethorpes; the international players leave to play for Paris SG.  Itâ€™s still good news for ManU since it is still winning locally and plays against MLS or China leagues
		
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Be realistic. IMO football is a daft analogy for globalised finance and business in general.

The EU is not the whole 'market'/source for the UK and its not the region where growth and opportunities are at their best.


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## Mudball (Aug 24, 2018)

drdel said:



			Be realistic. IMO football is a daft analogy for globalised finance and business in general.

The EU is not the whole 'market'/source for the UK and its not the region where growth and opportunities are at their best.
		
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Yes .. it can be daft if you look at geography . The comparison is aimed to say passporting is more like getting the license to play in the premier league.  There are other leagues available - London is looking to be a major Chinese currency house. The world wanting to invest in EU will now go via Paris or other centres. 

Will the banks loose? Nope.. Banks will move the centre out and still make money. Citibank, UBS and their ilk will make the money. The only loss would be the people who currently do this job in London and other indirect service providers like the coffee shops, the Uberâ€™s, the pubs. Impact on the tax receipts is different story


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## drdel (Aug 24, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Yes .. it can be daft if you look at geography . The comparison is aimed to say passporting is more like getting the license to play in the premier league.  There are other leagues available - London is looking to be a major Chinese currency house. The world wanting to invest in EU will now go via Paris or other centres. 

Will the banks loose? Nope.. Banks will move the centre out and still make money. Citibank, UBS and their ilk will make the money. The only loss would be the people who currently do this job in London and other indirect service providers like the coffee shops, the Uberâ€™s, the pubs. Impact on the tax receipts is different story
		
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We'll not agree and I've no wish to clutter the thread further. IMO, with respect, you've swallowed the propaganda and do not give the staff in London enough respect for their business acumen and agility. Time will tell.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 24, 2018)

As the Euro will turn out to be the biggest single and most predictable failure in global financial history, why would anyone in their right mind allow their financial regulations be dictated from Brussels after the UK leaves the EU?  The city of London is more than capable of going it alone, just as it has done very successfully for most of it's history.


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## bluewolf (Aug 25, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			As the Euro will turn out to be the biggest single and most predictable failure in global financial history, why would anyone in their right mind allow their financial regulations be dictated from Brussels after the UK leaves the EU?  The city of London is more than capable of going it alone, just as it has done very successfully for most of it's history.
		
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Oooh, this sounds interesting. Please tell me why the Euro will be such a failure... genuine question...


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## MegaSteve (Aug 25, 2018)

Mercedes have spent an absolute fortune on upgrading a local dealership... Really can't believe they'd still be investing large sums of money, into the UK, if they really felt we were to be cast adrift without the proverbial paddle...

The end may be nigh... But not for a while just yet...


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## Mudball (Aug 25, 2018)

drdel said:



			We'll not agree and I've no wish to clutter the thread further. IMO, with respect, you've swallowed the propaganda and do not give the staff in London enough respect for their business acumen and agility. Time will tell.
		
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We can agree to disagree.. I have vested interest in UK thriving outside of EU. I also think we will adapt and do well in the long run. What I donâ€™t buy is the dummy being peddled by the Leavers leaders that all will be well when we leave and that everyone who is saying that the emperor has no clothes should be tried for treason. 

Ironically those worst hit will be the ones who are already struggling. Rees Mog has moved fund to Dublin, the bankers can commute to Paris. The lower skilled, the vulnerable, the farmer wonâ€™t be able to do it. Mayâ€™s magic money tree only provides for a few chosen ones. Key services like the NHS, the science community need people and funds to provide the services or sustain our competitive edge. 

In my head I am a capitalist, but as I get older, I emphasise that market mechanisms cannot support a society just as the way pure socialism cannot.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2018)

And so I read today that 

'Britain would not be able to begin trading seamlessly on WTO terms if it fails to secure a deal with Brussels - that Britain would not automatically switch and continue trading once it leaves the EU on 29 March 2019 _"it will be very ambitious to have that kind of outcome"_'  

Bah humbug - Project Fear.

Er no.  Roberto Azevedo - WTO Director General (yesterday)

Just saying


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## bluewolf (Aug 25, 2018)

Mudball said:



			We can agree to disagree.. I have vested interest in UK thriving outside of EU. I also think we will adapt and do well in the long run. What I donâ€™t buy is the dummy being peddled by the Leavers leaders that all will be well when we leave and that everyone who is saying that the emperor has no clothes should be tried for treason. 

Ironically those worst hit will be the ones who are already struggling. Rees Mog has moved fund to Dublin, the bankers can commute to Paris. The lower skilled, the vulnerable, the farmer wonâ€™t be able to do it. Mayâ€™s magic money tree only provides for a few chosen ones. Key services like the NHS, the science community need people and funds to provide the services or sustain our competitive edge. 

In my head I am a capitalist, but as I get older, I emphasise that market mechanisms cannot support a society just as the way pure socialism cannot.
		
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Good, reasoned post..

From someone who, in his head is a Socialist, but has always understood that Socialism is a Perfect idea that cannot support a varied Society, just as the way pure Capitalism cannot.


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## Old Skier (Aug 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so I read today that 

'Britain would not be able to begin trading seamlessly on WTO terms if it fails to secure a deal with Brussels - that Britain would not automatically switch and continue trading once it leaves the EU on 29 March 2019 _"it will be very ambitious to have that kind of outcome"_'  

Bah humbug - Project Fear.

Er no.  Roberto Azevedo - WTO Director General (yesterday)

Just saying
		
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But do you believe it or are you still sitting on the fence and blaming everyone else for saying it.

Every thread you seem to participate in on politics it's all he said she said. Time for you to say what's going to happen.


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## PieMan (Aug 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so I read today that 

'Britain would not be able to begin trading seamlessly on WTO terms if it fails to secure a deal with Brussels - that Britain would not automatically switch and continue trading once it leaves the EU on 29 March 2019 _"it will be very ambitious to have that kind of outcome"_'  

Bah humbug - Project Fear.

Er no.  Roberto Azevedo - WTO Director General (yesterday)

Just saying
		
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Interesting that I've read today that he also said that a no-deal Brexit would not be the end of the world!!&#128521;


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## bluewolf (Aug 25, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Interesting that I've read today that he also said that a no-deal Brexit would not be the end of the world!!&#128521;
		
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Does it have to be the end of the world to be the wrong move? &#128521;


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Interesting that I've read today that he also said that a no-deal Brexit would not be the end of the world!!&#128521;
		
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He did.  But nothing would actually be the end of the world in respect of trade - though I don't recall us being told *by Leave *that things would/could be difficult for quite some time.  Remember - whatever _Remain_ said about things post-Brexit was all Project Fear and to be dismissed or taken with a pinch of salt - and I suspect most Leave voters *did * take it that way and did not believe the warnings and concerns.

And let's not forget Brexit isn't all about trade - it's also very much about such as the expectations of Leave voters in respect of public service provision, funding and accessibility.  And while trade and the economy are in transition there may be further tightening of belts around that.  And that will not be what was expected.  Oh what fun will be had.

And just to wind up JR-M and his ERG chums - David Lidington is telling us that _No Deal_ will be v bad for the UK.  He best watch out - drifting 'off-ERG message' is not good - see also P Hammond.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Interesting that I've read today that he also said that a no-deal Brexit would not be the end of the world!!&#128521;
		
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Not the end of the world but most likely a massive financial hit for the average UK family for the next two decades. It could also cause public unrest when it is added onto the last 10 years of an enforced austerity.

One of those occasions where I would love to be proved wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not the end of the world but most likely a massive financial hit for the average UK family for the next two decades. *It could also cause public unrest *when it is added onto the last 10 years of an enforced austerity.

One of those occasions where I would love to be proved wrong.
		
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Ach - you shouldn't perpetuate Project Fear warnings!

Hold on though - I'm thinking that that public unrest is forecast if there is a referendum on the Deal - and that all hell breaks loose if the deal is rejected and we remain.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			But do you believe it or are you still sitting on the fence and blaming everyone else for saying it.

Every thread you seem to participate in on politics it's all he said she said. Time for you to say what's going to happen.
		
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I do not understand your challenging in this way.  

I can form no detailed opinion as a result of an analysis of his rationale as I do not know about the detail lof how the WTO operates and what is required for the UK to move to trading under auspices of the WTO.

I can only try and understand what I read and if what I read comes from an authoritative source - and in this case it is a very authoritative source who has no axe to grind in the Brexit debate - then I am inclined to believe what I read.  I have no grounds, evidence or understanding to disagree and refute his assertions.

So tell me.  Do you believe him?


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## bobmac (Aug 25, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not the end of the world but most likely a massive financial hit for the average UK family for the next two decades. It could also cause public unrest when it is added onto the last 10 years of an enforced austerity.

One of those occasions where I would love to be proved wrong.
		
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As I'm sure you well know, SILH only quoted the phrase he could use to support his agenda ie Brexit is a disaster and we're all doomed. He missed out out the phrase ''it's not the end of the world'' which suggests we're not all doomed. And when he gets caught cherry picking, he moves the goal posts to ''It's not all about trade''

Then you come along and suggest that ''not the end of the world'' means ''massive financial hit for Uk families for the next 20 years'' when in actual fact the phrase used by Roberto Azevedo - WTO Director General was ''it won't be a walk in the park''

So to sum up.....

According the head man at the World Trade Organization...........

''No deal won't be the end of the world but it won't be a walk in the park either''

Just saying


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2018)

bobmac said:



			As I'm sure you well know, SILH only quoted the phrase he could use to support his agenda ie Brexit is a disaster and we're all doomed. He missed out out the phrase ''it's not the end of the world'' which suggests we're not all doomed. And when he gets caught cherry picking, he moves the goal posts to ''It's not all about trade''

Then you come along and suggest that ''not the end of the world'' means ''massive financial hit for Uk families for the next 20 years'' when in actual fact the phrase used by Roberto Azevedo - WTO Director General was ''it won't be a walk in the park''

So to sum up.....

According the head man at the World Trade Organization...........

''No deal won't be the end of the world but it won't be a walk in the park either''

Just saying
		
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Well it would have be nice if Leave had been clear about that before the vote.  But they weren't.  And when Remain raised issues - Project Fear Fear Fear - and still it continues as 'it won't be a walk in the park' seems to contradict all who say that leaving and going to WTO rules will be straightforward.  When it simply will not be.  

And for some time we will be the only country in the world operating *solely *under the auspices of the WTO with no ytrade deals in place - having lost all 60 of our existing non-EU country trade and regulatory agreements as well as that with the EU and those with the EU27 countries.  Well I suppose that'll satisfy those who see the UK as being unique in the world - well we will be.


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## Hobbit (Aug 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well it would have be nice if Leave had been clear about that before the vote.  But they weren't.  And when Remain raised issues - Project Fear Fear Fear - and still it continues as 'it won't be a walk in the park' seems to contradict all who say that leaving and going to WTO rules will be straightforward.  When it simply will not be.  

And for some time we will be the only country in the world operating *solely *under the auspices of the WTO with no ytrade deals in place - having lost all 60 of our existing non-EU country trade and regulatory agreements as well as that with the EU and those with the EU27 countries.  Well I suppose that'll satisfy those who see the UK as being unique in the world - well we will be.
		
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C'mon Hugh, you don't honestly believe that the rubbish George Osbourne put out before the vote was anything other than Project Fear. Even the House of Commons standards committee and the Treasury told him he was going too far. Don't forget, he said the would be an immediate budget, a Â£4.2k loss to each family in the first year and unemployment would sky rocket. None of those have come to pass.

What happens in the next few years might be different but Osbourne lied and lied and lied to try and 'buy' votes. Both sides had their version of Project Fear, not just the Leave side.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 25, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Oooh, this sounds interesting. Please tell me why the Euro will be such a failure... genuine question...
		
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There's a wealth of information out there explaining why the Euro is and will continue to be a mitigated disaster. I am away at the moment and only have access with my phone but here is a starter for you to read,  it explains some of the many flaws in the I'll thought through project. Can supply more if needed.

https://braveneweurope.com/jorg-bibow-and-heiner-flassbeck-the-euro-disaster


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## bluewolf (Aug 25, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			There's a wealth of information out there explaining why the Euro is and will continue to be a mitigated disaster. I am away at the moment and only have access with my phone but here is a starter for you to read,  it explains some of the many flaws in the I'll thought through project. Can supply more if needed.

https://braveneweurope.com/jorg-bibow-and-heiner-flassbeck-the-euro-disaster

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Some interesting stuff. Does make you wonder why the pound is performing so poorly against it!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			What happens in the next few years might be different but Osbourne lied and lied and lied to try and 'buy' votes. Both sides had their version of Project Fear, not just the Leave side.
		
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Hang on...but....but.....when he lied and lied to try and 'buy' votes in 2014 you agreed with him.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 25, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Some interesting stuff. Does make you wonder why the pound is performing so poorly against it!!
		
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Speculators playing silly buggers as they are wont to do...


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## Hobbit (Aug 25, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hang on...but....but.....when he lied and lied to try and 'buy' votes in 2014 you agreed with him.
		
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Of course I did Doon. Now here's a nice mug of cocoa...


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 25, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Some interesting stuff. Does make you wonder why the pound is performing so poorly against it!!
		
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MegaSteve said:



			Speculators playing silly buggers as they are wont to do...
		
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Possibly the billions of Euros being pumped in to the system by the European Central Bank to prop up the Euro might also have something to do with it. Just the trivial amount of 2.5 trillion Euros that they have injected into the system - or at least will have done by the end of 2018.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Of course I did Doon. Now here's a nice mug of cocoa...
		
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Which one of your two faces said that. :lol:


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## bluewolf (Aug 26, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Possibly the billions of Euros being pumped in to the system by the European Central Bank to prop up the Euro might also have something to do with it. Just the trivial amount of 2.5 trillion Euros that they have injected into the system - or at least will have done by the end of 2018.
		
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Yes, but it's a program that will end later this year, and despite the massive injection of cash they still seem to have control of inflation (just under 2% I believe). The Euro seems to be holding relatively steady whilst Sterling appears a lot more reactive. 

Might buy my Euros now for next summer &#128514;


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## Old Skier (Aug 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can only try and understand what I read and if what I read comes from an authoritative source - and in this case it is a very authoritative source who has no axe to grind in the Brexit debate - then I am inclined to believe what I read.  I have no grounds, evidence or understanding to disagree and refute his assertions.

So tell me.  Do you believe him?
		
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I have said before, I only try and deal with facts. As there are to many he said, she said quotes I don't believe anyone knows, as many on here have tried to point out to you.

Some are easily influenced by what they read, others aren't, the way of the world.


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## Mudball (Aug 26, 2018)

Finally we have a solution to the Irish border issue.. Rees Mog has suggeted that we have a border just like we did during the Troubles.  We can keep an eye on it and not everyone has to use it daily ... ( wasnâ€™t it something like 30k users daily?) 


https://twitter.com/stephen_rth/status/1033033628303941638?s=21


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## MegaSteve (Aug 26, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Yes, but it's a program that will end later this year, and despite the massive injection of cash they still seem to have control of inflation (just under 2% I believe). The Euro seems to be holding relatively steady whilst Sterling appears a lot more reactive. 

Might buy my Euros now for next summer &#128514;
		
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Seem possibly being the key word...

Plus we have the likes of Carney and Hammond who appear to be positively revelling in talking down sterling...
Perhaps they should be giving some consideration to adopting the old adage of... 
If thy haven't got something positive to say its probably better to keep ones gob shut...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 26, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			I have said before, I only try and deal with facts. As there are to many he said, she said quotes I don't believe anyone knows, as many on here have tried to point out to you.

Some are easily influenced by what they read, others aren't, the way of the world.
		
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But in respect of the future there are certain known facts (such as what para 3 of Art50 says) and there are predictions.

The whole basis of the Leave campaign's economic/trade case was predicated on assumptions about what the UK *might *be able to agree in the future, after all we have in place now is gone.  The only fact about trade agreements with the EU was that which para 3 of Art50 made clear.  With a No Deal we will have none - all will be ended.  And the fact stated by Leave in respect of moving seamlessly onto trading under the auspices of the WTO was misrepresented - as we now hear clearly stated by the head of that organisation.  It won't happen like that.  

The facts of Remain and trading with the EU and 3rd party countries were very clear and incontrovertible.  The UK would remain part of the EU, and would continue to trade with the EU and trade with 60 third party countries via EU agreements exactly as we do today.  Straight forward fact with no assumptions or prediction. 

I don't see how a Leave vote in respect of trade was made on anything other than prediction and assertion.

And of what I read.  I read my university text books.  As they were written by authoritative experts I tended to believe what was written.

If I was only reading or listening to the views of a single economic forecaster - I don't recall pre-vote too many economists other than Minford bigging up Leave - then I would agree.   But I read and listen to the views of very many.  And not just forecasters - but also such as the head of the WTO stating facts - and the words of Article 50 - fact.


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## drdel (Aug 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But in respect of the future there are certain known facts (such as what para 3 of Art50 says) and there are predictions.

The whole basis of the Leave campaign's economic/trade case was predicated on assumptions about what the UK *might *be able to agree in the future, after all we have in place now is gone.  The only fact about trade agreements with the EU was that which para 3 of Art50 made clear.  With a No Deal we will have none - all will be ended.  And the fact stated by Leave in respect of moving seamlessly onto trading under the auspices of the WTO was misrepresented - as we now hear clearly stated by the head of that organisation.  It won't happen like that.  

The facts of Remain and trading with the EU and 3rd party countries were very clear and incontrovertible.  The UK would remain part of the EU, and would continue to trade with the EU and trade with 60 third party countries via EU agreements exactly as we do today.  Straight forward fact with no assumptions or prediction. 

I don't see how a Leave vote in respect of trade was made on anything other than prediction and assertion.

And of what I read.  *I read my university text books.  As they were written by authoritative experts *I tended to believe what was written.

If I was only reading or listening to the views of a single economic forecaster - I don't recall pre-vote too many economists other than Minford bigging up Leave - then I would agree.   But I read and listen to the views of very many.  And not just forecasters - but also such as the head of the WTO stating facts - and the words of Article 50 - fact.[/QUOTE

Books can be written by anyone and are not necessarily refereed: those that are, frequently use a 'panel' of friends/cohorts of the author (Just take a look at the many conflicting health and diet advice published by the academic world!). I suspect your University texts were written several decades ago and prior to Electronic trading, AI influenced currency speculation and many, many international trade  and financial agreements. 

If you _really_ want to understand the economics and econometrics of modern international finance and trade you'd best join the Royal Society and study the refereed articles in their Journal.


If you do that you may find that the 'political' joining of disparate economic entities generally forces the members to trend towards the lowest common denominator of performance.  When the EEC started to exercise 'control' to manage this race to the bottom it had to give cash to the poorer members to buy stuff from richer members (whose trade out of the bloc was the regulated)  maintain the flow of money around the gang of members. Naturally the richer end up paying for the poorer and before long demand a great say over how_ their _money is spent. Consequently the 'central' management grows bigger as the demands for control increase (at a huge cost). The EU then has to add further levels of controls and centralise more functions - hence the ECB etc.

You'll note that Germany as a (if not, the) major economic engine of the EU exercises more influence, with the likes of Greece saddled with a debt that can never hope to repay. The Greece situation is called a 'success' which a clear lie by the EU. the EU can lie because there is no downside for any of the decision makers - and so the EU's model of integration has to increase because of the original basic economic fault which the EEC initiated. The independent member nations must be centrally controlled which is fundamentally against democratic decision making. The EU's future must be at the expense of citizens of the less power members. 

The EU has no major natural resources and its population and internal market has now matured so the 'gangs' ability to keep enough cash flowing between members is insufficient. The 'new' source of money is within developing nations but the EU's management and regulation is too slow and cumbersome so it is not agile enough to capitalise and compete for these new economies against China (looks at its African/South American investments and purchase of rare metal mining etc) et al. The 'poor' subsidised EU members are anchor. The UK has trading opportunities outside the gang. If it does not separate from the EU, UK citizens will always have a standard of living which progressively worsens as the subsidies have to increase.

In the modern world of electronic communication, using data quickly is key to agilit0y Self governed nation states are more agile and the long term health and prosperity of the UK is based on its ability to trade nation to nation worldwide. 

QED, naturally IMO - its raining too heavy for me and buddies so not playing this morning  !!
		
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## Old Skier (Aug 26, 2018)

Best remain then https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45301966

Is there no end to the reason to remain brigade stories, and they wonder why people don't take them seriously.


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## Hobbit (Aug 26, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Which one of your two faces said that. :lol:
		
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The one that recognised the village idiot was up past his bedtime


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The one that recognised the village idiot was up past his bedtime 

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Goodness me, fancy being caught out on political double standards by a 'village idiot'.:whoo:


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## Hobbit (Aug 26, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me, fancy being caught out on political double standards by a 'village idiot'.:whoo:
		
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I'm still not sure what you've caught me out on. Was it that I didn't agree with the SNP's warped/skewed financial predictions for independence? By the way the latest GERS report explains why Mrs Krankie is quiet on independence. 

Did I agree with Osbourne in 2014? Good job I'm intelligent enough not to follow him blindly *cough, SNP*


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## chrisd (Aug 26, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The one that recognised the village idiot was up past his bedtime 

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You underestimate him, hes gone for "European village idiot of the year" &#128512;


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## Tashyboy (Aug 26, 2018)

Not saying that europe has chucked the teddies out of the ptam. But it is now saying that even though the UK has paid 1.4 Billion euros to the gallileo gps space programme. A programme our armed services were going to use. The EU has now said that we will not be able to use it. Really, one more reason for the UK to tell the EU to shove any deal.


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## Mudball (Aug 26, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Not saying that europe has chucked the teddies out of the ptam. But it is now saying that even though the UK has paid 1.4 Billion euros to the gallileo gps space programme. A programme our armed services were going to use. The EU has now said that we will not be able to use it. Really, one more reason for the UK to tell the EU to shove any deal.
		
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I canâ€™t see why they would let the UK play with a EU only toy? You canâ€™t cherry pick what you get to keep just because you had input into building it. They could let UK have access to some bits as part of negotiations but not to the whole thing. The same applies to counter terrorise intelligence or policing/Europol. Same with new medicine research and Atomic research.


All this was explained by Project Fear before the referendum, so donâ€™t be alarmed if it comes true. No news here, move on..


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## MegaSteve (Aug 26, 2018)

Mudball said:



			The same applies to counter terrorise intelligence or policing/Europol.
		
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Yeh righty... There's a major terrorist incident, on the continent, and 'our' team could have stopped it as they had the relevant intelligence to hand... But chose not to pass it on as we are no longer part of team Europe..

Nope can't see it all or the other way round either for that matter...


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## Old Skier (Aug 26, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Yeh righty... There's a major terrorist incident, on the continent, and 'our' team could have stopped it as they had the relevant intelligence to hand... But chose not to pass it on as we are no longer part of team Europe..

Nope can't see it all or the other way round either for that matter...
		
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And the second largest intelligence gathering agency in the Western world is in ............. answers on a post card.

And Interpol never existed before  ............ oh hang on, it's nothing to do with the EU.

Funny how these things that remainers go on about are nothing to do with EU membership.

Perhaps those that go on about project fear are on to something.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 26, 2018)

Mudball said:



			I canâ€™t see why they would let the UK play with a EU only toy? You canâ€™t cherry pick what you get to keep just because you had input into building it. They could let UK have access to some bits as part of negotiations but not to the whole thing. The same applies to counter terrorise intelligence or policing/Europol. Same with new medicine research and Atomic research.


All this was explained by Project Fear before the referendum, so donâ€™t be alarmed if it comes true. No news here, move on..
		
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Oh dont get me wrong. Al move in n as soon as the 1.4 billion is paid back. ðŸ‘


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## Mudball (Aug 26, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			And the second largest intelligence gathering agency in the Western world is in ............. answers on a post card.

And Interpol never existed before  ............ oh hang on, it's nothing to do with the EU.

Funny how these things that remainers go on about are nothing to do with EU membership.

Perhaps those that go on about project fear are on to something.
		
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Europol not Interpol..  as you know T-May has already asked for a new deal.  

ICYMI ... https://www.ft.com/content/b74ec3d0-2213-11e8-9a70-08f715791301




Tashyboy said:



			Oh dont get me wrong. Al move in n as soon as the 1.4 billion is paid back. ðŸ‘
		
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Like other things donâ€™t be surprised if we have to continue to pay after we have left as part of â€˜committed spendâ€™


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## Hobbit (Aug 26, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Not saying that europe has chucked the teddies out of the ptam. But it is now saying that even though the UK has paid 1.4 Billion euros to the gallileo gps space programme. A programme our armed services were going to use. The EU has now said that we will not be able to use it. Really, one more reason for the UK to tell the EU to shove any deal.
		
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Mudball said:



			I canâ€™t see why they would let the UK play with a EU only toy? You canâ€™t cherry pick what you get to keep just because you had input into building it. They could let UK have access to some bits as part of negotiations but not to the whole thing. The same applies to counter terrorise intelligence or policing/Europol. Same with new medicine research and Atomic research.


All this was explained by Project Fear before the referendum, so donâ€™t be alarmed if it comes true. No news here, move on..
		
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And Barnier, not 4 weeks ago, said its imperative that the UK is part of the security of Europe. The exact opposite of what he'd been saying for 2 years.

Don't get your knickers in a twist over something that hasn't happened, and that the EU negotiating team have said won't happen.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 26, 2018)

Mudball said:



			I canâ€™t see why they would let the UK play with a EU only toy? You canâ€™t cherry pick what you get to keep just because you had input into building it. They could let UK have access to some bits as part of negotiations but not to the whole thing. The same applies to counter terrorise intelligence or policing/Europol. Same with new medicine research and Atomic research.


All this was explained by Project Fear before the referendum, so donâ€™t be alarmed if it comes true. No news here, move on..
		
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Do you honestly believe the EU don't need UK assistance with counter terrorism, policing, medical and atomic research?   You have got to be joking, come on now you have got to be.


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## Mudball (Aug 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly believe the EU don't need UK assistance with counter terrorism, policing, medical and atomic research?   You have got to be joking, come on now you have got to be.
		
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I never said they donâ€™t.. all I am saying is that this will have impact on all these services.. expecting it to stay status quo (on either side) is silly.  Given the relative sizes expect more on our side. Expecting a refund on 1b on Galileo is a very simplistic notion at best

Hoping that we will reach a good deal is a great idea; but â€˜hopeâ€™ can never be a great strategy


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## drdel (Aug 27, 2018)

You'd never guess from reading these comments that UK has working defence, intelligence and security protocols with nations not in the EU!


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## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Europol not Interpol..  as you know T-May has already asked for a new deal. â€™
		
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I mean Interpol, a much bigger organisation than Europol with far more countries belonging to it than its smaller cousin.


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## Mudball (Aug 27, 2018)

drdel said:



			You'd never guess from reading these comments that UK has working defence, intelligence and security protocols with nations not in the EU!
		
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We do.. mostly with US, NATO and EU.. lots of overlaps.. no one (at least not me) is trying to say we donâ€™t have or will have working relationship elsewhere but get ready for dips during transition.  And anyone saying transition is 2 years is only taking about the start of the transition


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2018)

Mudball said:



			We do.. mostly with US, NATO and EU.. lots of overlaps.. no one (at least not me) is trying to say we donâ€™t have or will have working relationship elsewhere but get ready for dips during transition.  And anyone saying transition is 2 years is only taking about the start of the transition
		
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Why do you have so little faith in the abilities of the UK?  Genuine question.


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you have so little faith in the abilities of the UK?  Genuine question.
		
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There's nothing in Mudball's post that suggests anything of the sort.

Most 'problems' benefit from additional resources and communication - the elimination of duplicated effort being the most obvious.


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## Mudball (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			There's nothing in Mudball's post that suggests anything of the sort.

Most 'problems' benefit from additional resources and communication - the elimination of duplicated effort being the most obvious.
		
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  +1.. I donâ€™t have any doubts about our ability to achieve great things. However I donâ€™t fancy giving up a strong position or our USPs that make us weaker. Build on strengths, eliminate duplication. Also the lack of the magic money tree at this time, does not give me much confidence


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## drdel (Aug 27, 2018)

While whittering on about the UKs future it might be an idea to checkout the state of play in Germany, France, Italy and many of the other members. Fear over Schengen and economics are just a few of the significant issues bubbling up.

The UK is in good shape to manage its future, I have less confidence in the rEU being able to coherently devize a strategy that is optimum for the Euro and member states.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			There's nothing in Mudball's post that suggests anything of the sort.

Most 'problems' benefit from additional resources and communication - the elimination of duplicated effort being the most obvious.
		
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Although you will probably say its a forum and open to debate by anyone I wasn't interested in your view, that's why i put the question to him.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2018)

Mudball said:



			+1.. I donâ€™t have any doubts about our ability to achieve great things. However I donâ€™t fancy giving up a strong position or our USPs that make us weaker. Build on strengths, eliminate duplication. Also the lack of the magic money tree at this time, does not give me much confidence
		
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Yes, we must balance strengths against weaknesses and threats against opportunities. Our USPs are also what give us a way to trade globally and re-find ourselves as a nation of merchant venturers, rather than one that is strait jacketed with a watered down identity in the malaise  of the EU superstate.

If you would like to see a magic money tree in action then turn your eyes to the eurozone where there is a one fits all currency that has no mechanism to address the diversity in member state economies other than enforcing their governments to give up control or print money.  Hope it inspires your confidence.


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## bobmac (Aug 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Although you will probably say its a forum and open to debate by anyone I wasn't interested in your view, that's why i put the question to him.
		
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He does that to me as well, very annoying and rude.
I wonder if he butts in to other peoples conversations in real life


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Although you will probably say *its a forum and open to debate by anyone* I wasn't interested in your view, that's why i put the question to him.
		
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Indeed! If you want it 'private' then use PM.

Btw. I note Mudball '+1-ed' my post!


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2018)

bobmac said:



			He does that to me as well, very annoying and rude.
I wonder if he butts in to other peoples conversations in real life  

Click to expand...

You mean like you've just done! :rofl: :rofl:


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## bobmac (Aug 28, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			You mean like you've just done! :rofl: :rofl:
		
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SR made a statement which I agreed with.

SR asked mudball a direct question and you butted in.

Big difference


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2018)

bobmac said:



			SR made a statement which I agreed with.

SR asked mudball a direct question and you butted in.

Big difference
		
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No difference imo!

Oh, and see post 705

Back on topic...

I too believe that UK can stand alone and prosper (though there will be losses), but that the benefits of contributing to, prospering from and influencing Europe's affairs by being 'part of Europe' exceed the disadvantages and costs.


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## bobmac (Aug 28, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			No difference imo!
		
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Of course there is

You answered a question that wasn't directed at you. It wasn't a secret question or a private question (no need for a PM) but it was a ''genuine question''  directed at Mudball. You should have waited for his reply then you can agree or disagree with his reply.




Foxholer said:



			Oh, and see post 705
		
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I did and it's irrelevant whether he agreed or disagreed with your interruption.

You still spoke out of place and in my opinion thats rude.


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2018)

bobmac said:



			...

You answered a question that wasn't directed at you....
		
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No I didn't! I replied to a post (and gave my opinion) in an open forum!



bobmac said:



			...
You still spoke out of place and in my opinion thats rude.
		
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If that's what you wish to believe, that's fine by me.

But it's an open forum, so response from anyone should be 'expected'!

That's why your 'interruption' (your term, not one I would use) was no different to mine!

Now kindly get back to topic!


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## bobmac (Aug 28, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			That's why your 'interruption' (your term, not one I would use) was no different to mine!

Now kindly get back to topic!
		
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If you can't or won't see the difference, I'm done.

I'm out


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## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2018)

bobmac said:



			If you can't or won't see the difference, I'm done.

I'm out
		
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He's an itch best not scratched.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2018)

drdel said:



			You'd never guess from reading these comments that UK has working defence, intelligence and security protocols with nations not in the EU!
		
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Of course we do.  The question surely is - will they become overall more or less effective once we have left the EU and we do not have in place full agreements (equivalent to what we have at the moment) in respect of cooperation on defence, intelligence and security matters?  And when Trump decides that he doesn't like 5 Eyes?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2018)

I see the Euro is now worth more than the Pound at Glasgow and Cardiff airports.
Sad times.


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see the Euro is now worth more than the Pound at Glasgow and Cardiff airports.
Sad times.
		
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Wrong. It just costs more than a Poond to buy 1 Euro there!

But hey, why ruin some good eyewash with facts!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 28, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			He's an itch best not scratched.[/QUOTE...]&#128512;
		
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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2018)

Bernard Jenkin MP speaking about Scotland and saying
 'we let them vote in our [EU] referendum'  

Anyone any ideas just who 'we and our' are ?


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## User62651 (Aug 29, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Bernard Jenkin MP speaking about Scotland and saying
 'we let them vote in our [EU] referendum'  

Anyone any ideas just who 'we and our' are ?
		
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We're British, English, Scottish etc when it suits our agendas, we all do it! 
EU ref was British so I guess he was making a point if a little clumsily about us Scots wanting it all ways. People jump all over any words a politicians says, reflects the deep seated animosity politics generates especially these days, maybe as a result of too many 'unresolved' referendums.


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## USER1999 (Aug 30, 2018)

Ooh, it seems the UK might get a special deal afterall. Who would have thought that.

Now, if only Barnier, Junker, May, etc had all been sensible from the off, what might have been achieved.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 30, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Now, if only Barnier, Junker, May, etc had all been sensible from the off, .
		
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Well, that was [sadly] never likely to happen...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 30, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, that was [sadly] never likely to happen...
		
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What was (sadly) never likely to happen was the EU bowing 'to a cake-and eat it' approach from the UK - one at odds with all the four principles and rules set out.  And those of us with an iota of understanding of the EU knew that the 'easiest deal ever' lie perpetrated by some Leaver leaders was just that - a lie - and we knew that at the outset - and May knew it when she set out her objectives in the Lancaster Hse speech.

May knew that her objectives and red lines were at odds with what the EU would or could simply accept.  But she had to perpetrate the illusion that somehow we'd be able to get pretty much all of her objectives without crossing all of her lines lines.  Because she knew that the reasons for leaving the EU were so wide and varied that for some voters some of the Red Lines and Objectives were less important.  So she set out objectives and stated red lines that she knew would satisfy ALL leave voters.  And she knew then as we know now that in the end not all objectives will be fully met, and some red lines might be crossed or tread upon - but only the relatively few hardline leaver EU-sceptics would be bothered about that.

And so let's see what this 'special' deal actually is.  I am indeed holding my breath with excitement - though I fear I might faint before we hear of it.


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## Dellboy (Aug 30, 2018)

Special Deal or not I canâ€™t see it getting passed in the  House of Commons. 

Labour and Wee Jimmy up North have already said they wonâ€™t back a deal of any sorts and with up to 40 Tory mpâ€™s saying they wonâ€™t back any deal to do with the checkers deal, I feel and hope a no deal is the only outcome.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 30, 2018)

I despair that you honestly hope for a No Deal...a No Deal will do NOTHING to heal the Leave/Remain rift in the country, and that rift MUST be healed - somehow.  That you actually HOPE for a No Deal is indicative of an attitude that says I care not a jot for those who voted to Remain...or indeed about the many and significant risks and impact that a No Deal is predicted to have.

And meanwhile - I assume May will come back from her Tour of Africa with lots of prospective major trade deals - though current headline news out of Africa is of May dancing...

Edit - Ooh - silly me - I didn't notice - 6 trade deals struck with African countries I read. Well that'll be a fine counterbalance to a No Deal with the EU. No worries.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 30, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What was (sadly) never likely to happen was the EU bowing 'to a cake-and eat it' approach from the UK - .
		
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Didn't expect them to do anything other than adopt the classic 'political classes' stance of prioritising protecting/looking after their own rice bowl...
Would've been a total surprise if they'd put the people they are supposed to be representing first...

Macron being a prime exhibit... First time he rocked up to Brussels his message to his fellow leaders was to go home and tell your people to expect rough times ahead... What happened to any thought of what the flip can we do to resolve this without causing any downsides to any part of Europe...


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## drdel (Aug 30, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Ooh, it seems the UK might get a special deal afterall. Who would have thought that.

Now, if only Barnier, Junker, May, etc had all been sensible from the off, what might have been achieved.
		
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But I wonder which of his two faces made the statement. In his subsequent words seemed to leave himself wriggle room to say he never meant it !!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 31, 2018)

Eddie Mair starting with LBC on Monday in the 4pm-6pm slot.  I think it will be interesting to see how he deals with Brexit callers as he is not constrained as he was when on Beeb4, he can express his own opinions and will be able to use his sometimes blunt and always forensic interviewing skills to pull apart weak or baseless arguments made by MPs; lead advocates of Leave/Remain; and brave callers.


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## Old Skier (Aug 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Eddie Mair starting with LBC on Monday in the 4pm-6pm slot.  I think it will be interesting to see how he deals with Brexit callers as he is not constrained as he was when on Beeb4, he can express his own opinions and will be able to use his sometimes blunt and always forensic interviewing skills to pull apart weak or baseless arguments made by MPs; lead advocates of Leave/Remain; and brave callers.
		
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Does he do the same against Remainers or is he as one sided as you.


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## Dellboy (Aug 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I despair that you honestly hope for a No Deal...a No Deal will do NOTHING to heal the Leave/Remain rift in the country, and that rift MUST be healed - somehow.  That you actually HOPE for a No Deal is indicative of an attitude that says I care not a jot for those who voted to Remain...or indeed about the many and significant risks and impact that a No Deal is predicted to have.

And meanwhile - I assume May will come back from her Tour of Africa with lots of prospective major trade deals - though current headline news out of Africa is of May dancing...

Edit - Ooh - silly me - I didn't notice - 6 trade deals struck with African countries I read. Well that'll be a fine counterbalance to a No Deal with the EU. No worries.
		
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I also despair with all the Pro EU / Anti UK LBC guff you come out with.

Why should I accept a watered down deal just to " Heal the rift with the remoaners " we are leaving, as per the wishes of the country, so they need to suck it up and get on board, this is a great country and we will make a success of it, if they / you can't live with that then thats your problem not mine.

A no deal is not the end of the world, plus I would rather keep the Â£49BN and have a clean break for the EU and start trading again on an even footing with the rest of the world.

I'm getting well fed up of all the talking down of this fine country and all the rubbish coming out of project fear, a vote was had, the result was announced and now lets crack on.

As for May in Africa, I hope she has so much fun over there that she decides to stay then we can get a real Tory PM with a backbone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 31, 2018)

Dellboy said:



			I also despair with all the Pro EU / Anti UK LBC guff you come out with.

Why should I accept a watered down deal just to " Heal the rift with the remoaners " we are leaving, as per the wishes of the country, so they need to suck it up and get on board, this is a great country and we will make a success of it, if they / you can't live with that then thats your problem not mine.

A no deal is not the end of the world, plus I would rather keep the Â£49BN and have a clean break for the EU and start trading again on an even footing with the rest of the world.

I'm getting well fed up of all the talking down of this fine country and all the rubbish coming out of project fear, a vote was had, the result was announced and now lets crack on.

As for May in Africa, I hope she has so much fun over there that she decides to stay then we can get a real Tory PM with a backbone.
		
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Love it - over 16million voters and many who didn't vote 'have to suck it up' - because Leave voters don't actually care that that country is split and hurting badly.  Leave won and apparently that's all that matters.  Well if you cared as much about your country as leave voters claim to do then you could not imagine that that is appropriate because that way is no way to heal our split society.  But perhaps you just really don't care. So sad.


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## bobmac (Aug 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Love it - over 16million voters and many who didn't vote 'have to suck it up' - because Leave voters don't actually care that* that country is split and hurting badly.*  Leave won and apparently that's all that matters.  Well if you cared as much about your country as leave voters claim to do then you could not imagine that that is appropriate because that way is no way to *heal our split society.*  But perhaps you just really don't care. So sad.
		
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You must live in another world from me.
The country where I live isn't hurt or split, it's exactly the same as it was 2 years ago.
If you think otherwise, it's you that's doing the damage with your negativity towards those who disagree with you and brexit in general. 
Even when there is good news, you always have a 'but'
Why don't you accept that for once in your life you haven't got your own way and you might be wrong.

Instead of seeing and thinking the worst in everything, why not embrace the change and realise there may be a brighter future, free of the EU shackles 

We are leaving the EU and whether you like it or not, the VAST MAJORITY of the population don't really give a dam.


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## Hobbit (Aug 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Love it - over 16million voters and many who didn't vote 'have to suck it up' - because Leave voters don't actually care that that country is split and hurting badly.  Leave won and apparently that's all that matters.  Well if you cared as much about your country as leave voters claim to do then you could not imagine that that is appropriate because that way is no way to heal our split society.  But perhaps you just really don't care. So sad.
		
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You could say that every time there is an election, and xx party gets into power. And I know that you get the chance to vote again 5 years later, and your party of choice may win but there's a multitude of laws and policies that impact us that are never changed - Tony Blair and uni fees, Post Office sell off, de-nationalisation of many industries.

And I absolutely wouldn't blame Brexit on our split society. Why don't you spend some time looking at newspaper headlines from 4, 5, 6, 10, 15 years ago. Broken Britain has been a tag line for years and years.


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## drdel (Aug 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Love it - over 16million voters and many who didn't vote 'have to suck it up' - because Leave voters don't actually care that that country is split and hurting badly.  Leave won and apparently that's all that matters.  Well if you cared as much about your country as leave voters claim to do then you could not imagine that that is appropriate because that way is no way to heal our split society.  But perhaps you just really don't care. So sad.
		
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You had a choice and voted just like myself and everyone else that cared enough to get off their backsides. Those who didn't particularly care could have voted but didn't. *IF *they had voted there is no *FACTUAL* evidence to suggest whether that majority would have supported your side of the argument or not.

The UK used a democratic method and a result was achieved. Expressing bitterness and constantly insulting the intelligence of those who cared enough to vote is, IMO, just silly and myopic.


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2018)

drdel said:



			You had a choice and voted just like myself and everyone else that cared enough to get off their backsides. Those who didn't particularly care could have voted but didn't. *IF *they had voted there is no *FACTUAL* evidence to suggest whether that majority would have supported your side of the argument or not.

The UK used a democratic method and a result was achieved. Expressing bitterness and constantly insulting the intelligence of those who cared enough to vote is, IMO, just silly and myopic.
		
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I agree. 

But your reply has (almost) nothing to do with SILH's one that you quote!

It would have been simpler, and possibly more 'honest' to have simply replied 'Yes!'!

@SILH The Leave/Remain issue was always going 'split' the country. That was, after all what triggered the referendum in the first place! I don't actually anybody is 'hurting badly' yrt - though some/many may be 'unhappy'. It's imperitave though that a 'good' deal is negotiated. a 'No Deal' is certainly a long way from that imo!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2018)

For me the situation today is quite simple.  If others had made a decision that you were virtually certain would have an outcome that would be harmful and damaging to the future of your loved ones - would you sit back and accept it; would you sit back and let that harm and damage to your loved ones happen - or would you do your best - however little that might be - to prevent or at least reduce that damage?

Quite simple really.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For me the situation today is quite simple.  If others had made a decision that you were virtually certain would have an outcome that would be harmful and damaging to the future of your loved ones - would you sit back and accept it; would you sit back and let that harm and damage to your loved ones happen - or would you do your best - however little that might be - to prevent or at least reduce that damage?

Quite simple really.
		
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Which is probably how a whole load of folk felt in '75...
Took 40+ years to right the wrong...

And, no social media [at the time] or as much 'rant radio' to air our feelings...


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## hors limite (Sep 1, 2018)

I'm sorry but when the narrow majority voted to leave things were very different. There was the Â£350mn/week Brexit dividend that has now disappeared. We were told that negotiating an exit would be easy and that trade with the EU wouldn't suffer - nobody mentioned the Â£40bn divorce bill.. We were told that the rest of the world would be hammering on our door with new trade deals. At the same time, many people who know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do have been warning about the dangers of no deal or a "hard" Brexit. They are in their multitudes and range from the boss of Airbus, to the Governor of the B of E, to the Chancellor and all we are expected to believe that they are somehow conspirators in "Project Fear". We are told that the EU has been holding back UK exporters from developing their markets - Germany seem to manage spectacularly well. If that wasn't enough we've got Rees- Mogg telling us it might take 50 years to see any benefit. The whole bloody shambles is costing Â£3bn which could be a lot better spent elsewhere.
The benefits from Brexit are always intangible - taking back control, ridding ourselves of EU shackles. Spare us Minford, but can anyone point out what the benefits of Brexit might be?


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For me the situation today is quite simple.  If others had made a decision that you were virtually certain would have an outcome that would be harmful and damaging to the future of your loved ones - would you sit back and accept it; would you sit back and let that harm and damage to your loved ones happen - or would you do your best - however little that might be - to prevent or at least reduce that damage?

Quite simple really.
		
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What harm and hardship, I suppose providing proof on what harm and hardship has happened is to much to ask for.


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## Dellboy (Sep 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For me the situation today is quite simple.  If others had made a decision that *you were virtually certain would have an outcome that would be harmful and damaging to the future of your loved ones* - would you sit back and accept it; would you sit back and let that harm and damage to your loved ones happen - or would you do your best - however little that might be - to prevent or at least reduce that damage?

Quite simple really.
		
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So please tell me how Brexit is going to be damaging and harmful to my love ones ? 

Would really love to know how you can look into the future and know this seeing as nothing has changed yet !!


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## drdel (Sep 1, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I agree.

But your reply has (almost) nothing to do with SILH's one that you quote!

It would have been simpler, and possibly more 'honest' to have simply replied 'Yes!'!

@SILH The Leave/Remain issue was always going 'split' the country. That was, after all what triggered the referendum in the first place! I don't actually anybody is 'hurting badly' yrt - though some/many may be 'unhappy'. It's imperitave though that a 'good' deal is negotiated. a 'No Deal' is certainly a long way from that imo!
		
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I said what I mean and meant what I said. But thank you for correcting my dishonesty. You might wish to ensure you wear a hard hat  as the high horse upon which you sit might just stumble and arrogance will not be enough to save your neck.


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2018)

drdel said:



			I said what I mean and meant what I said. But thank you for correcting my dishonesty. You might wish to ensure you wear a hard hat  as the high horse upon which you sit might just stumble and arrogance will not be enough to save your neck.
		
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Er. What dishonesty? Merely irrelevance!

I've come off enough real and 'forum' horses in my time to know that hard hats are compulsory - at least in 85% of cases!  

And there's a goodly amount of 'physician heal thyself' wrt perceived arrogance too!


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For me the situation today is quite simple.  If others had made a decision that you were virtually certain would have an outcome that would be harmful and damaging to the future of your loved ones - would you sit back and accept it; would you sit back and let that harm and damage to your loved ones happen - or would you do your best - however little that might be - to prevent or at least reduce that damage?

Quite simple really.
		
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Well put!

I'd be doing all I could to mitigate any negative effects while maximising any benefits!

It was depressing to see how much of the Referendum campaign consisted of blatant B/S - by both sides, but far more effectively be Leave!

I can't see the point of a referendum on 'the final deal'. That, imo, is something for Parliament to decide.


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## bobmac (Sep 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			or would you do your best - however little that might be - to prevent or at least reduce that damage?

Quite simple really.
		
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Over the last 2 years, how successful do you think you have been in preventing or at least reducing the anticipated damage?


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 1, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Over the last 2 years, how successful do you think you have been in preventing or at least reducing the anticipated damage?
		
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I suspect he's caused more than he's prevented or reduced.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Over the last 2 years, how successful do you think you have been in preventing or at least reducing the anticipated damage?
		
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What does it matter how successful I have been - what has that got to do with it?  I have Emailed mt MP quite a few times - the last time asking him to be honest with the electorate about a _No Deal _and encouraging him - as Foreign Secretary and therefore being a senior cabinet minister - to encourage May to be honest.  And the last few statements I have been hearing from him have actually been words of caution and concern over _No Deal _ and so maybe he has read my words and they have caused him to reflect.  Unlikely I suspect - but who knows.

Whether of not he listens and is not the point - I will continue to call out the lies and disinformation over Leaving and continue to highlight whenever I read or head worries ver leaving and especially over No Deal.

Meanwhile many leave votes it seems would prefer to simply ignore all the warnings and concerns - because - it seems - they simply want to get what they voted for -  and the rest of us can just go to blazes.

And so today I am reminded today of the NI issue.  And that the border and trade is in many ways the least of it.  Because the Good Friday agreement was underpinned by the European Courts of Justine and European convention on Human Rights - because the catholic population required that honest brokerage - a judge and an even hand that was not always apparent in Westminster.  And that Westminster body is now clearly aligned with the protestant side - through DUP bribes.  And so the catholic population look to the ECJ as the only honest broker left - and Leavers will have the UK dumping that.  And that way could well i time take us back to the bad days - because there will be very little to stop that happening - it is where NI came from before the Good Friday Agreement and the place of the ECJ in that agreement.

But hey - Remain lost - suck it up.


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## chrisd (Sep 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But hey - Remain lost - suck it up.
		
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Brilliant, you finally get the message, so can you stop posting On this thread now!


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## Hobbit (Sep 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so today I am reminded today of the NI issue.  And that the border and trade is in many ways the least of it.  Because the Good Friday agreement was underpinned by the European Courts of Justine and European convention on Human Rights - because the catholic population required that honest brokerage - a judge and an even hand that was not always apparent in Westminster.  And that Westminster body is now clearly aligned with the protestant side - through DUP bribes.  And so the catholic population look to the ECJ as the only honest broker left - and Leavers will have the UK dumping that.  And that way could well i time take us back to the bad days - because there will be very little to stop that happening - it is where NI came from before the Good Friday Agreement and the place of the ECJ in that agreement.
		
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I can't find any articles re the Catholics and the ECJ. I have read that an agreement has been reached between the Irish Prime Minister and the UK. However, Barnier says it hasn't reached an agreement. The UK govt have been saying that they will honour the Good Friday Agreement and the EU have said they can't do that unless NI stays in the Customs Union. Sounds like its the EU setting barriers, not the UK.


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whether of not he listens and is not the point - I will continue to call out the lies and disinformation over Leaving
		
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Even though I know you never respond when questioned on your hypercritical one side unbalanced view on the subject I'll try again.

Do you continue to call out the lies and disinformation that comes from the remain side.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Even though I know you never respond when questioned on your hypercritical one side unbalanced view on the subject I'll try again.

Do you continue to call out the lies and disinformation that comes from the remain side.
		
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yes I can call them out - though you cannot lie about a prediction whereas you can lie about a fact.  The Â£350m was a factual lie.  Saying that Turkey was about to join the EU was a factual lie. Saying that you'd be in Berlin the day after a Leave vote to talk trade deals was a lie.  A prediction of the need for an emergency budget and predictions in respect of employment etc were exaggerated predictions - they were not lies.  Everybody understands that predictions have associated uncertainty - and can be exaggerated and can be wrong.  Everybody also knows what a fact is; and that if you deliberately misrepresent a fact then you are lying.

But in truth what matters now is holding the government and lead Leavers to account on the lies that were perpetrated by the 'winning' side, as well as asking them to explain their predictions on how easy leaving would be - so on and so forth.  

And so we find the _'great future for the UK'_ has evolved from there through _'it shouldn't be worse than our current situation'_ to what a poll for LBC found yesterday:

_The survey for LBC by Deltapoll shows that 70% of leavers are *happy* to leave the EU even if it means longer queues at ports and airports border control.   And more than want to leave even if it means the cost of food rises significantly (54%) or the UK goes in to recession (51%). _

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...teers-happy-for-uk-to-go-into-recession-poll/

And what do I think on such views?  I think they are stupid, insane.  To actually be *happy *that all of that might happen is madness - and for what?  For some notion of regaining our sovereignty when the Brexit White Paper was clear that UK had never lost it's sovereignty.  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...endum-campaign-brussels-article-a7559556.html

John McCain's daughter got it right on America's version of this in her eulogy to her father - her repost to Trump's MAGA

_â€œThe America of John McCain has no need to be made great again because America was always great"_

 As the White Paper got it right for the UK.  And yet the majority of Leave voters polled would *happily *have us in recession.  Ye gods.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2018)

That is what I do not understand about the 'we want our country back/UKIP/Tory activists'.
They actually seem happy to cause decades of financial hardship and uncertainty to every single family in the UK.
But for what reason/outcome ?

If any WWOCB/UKIP/Tory supporters on here can give me a sensible answer the that I would be obliged.


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## bobmac (Sep 4, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_The survey for LBC by Deltapoll shows that 70% of leavers are *happy* to leave the EU even *IF *It means longer queues at ports and airports border control.   And more than want to leave even *IF* it means the cost of food rises significantly (54%) or the UK goes in to recession (51%). _

Click to expand...

I would be happy to vote remain *IF *it makes me a millionaire 
What a lovely word........ IF


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## MegaSteve (Sep 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is what I do not understand about the 'we want our country back/UKIP/Tory activists'.
They actually seem happy to cause decades of financial hardship and uncertainty to every single family in the UK.
But for what reason/outcome ?

If any WWOCB/UKIP/Tory supporters on here can give me a sensible answer the that I would be obliged.
		
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I would suggest 40+ years of being in the EU has all but wiped out our 'middle class'...
Leaving an even wider gap between the haves and have nots...
And that, more than any other reason, is why our economy is 'struggling'...
Really can't understand why folk still believe our membership has in any way been good for 'regular' people...

And, have you seen all the footage of the absolute far right/fascists marching in Germany...
Do you still feel we should be hanging onto their apron strings?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is what I do not understand about the 'we want our country back/UKIP/Tory activists'.
They actually seem happy to cause decades of financial hardship and uncertainty to every single family in the UK.
But for what reason/outcome ?

If any WWOCB/UKIP/Tory supporters on here can give me a sensible answer the that I would be obliged.
		
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You might as well ask how many Leave voters actually voted for a _No Deal. _ It may well be that some Leave Leaders were telling us *before the vote *that _No Deal_ was better than a _Bad Deal, _and that if we could not get a good deal we'd leave on the basis of _No Deal  _and then explained what that actually would mean_ -_ but I don't recall such being said - and if they did it wasn't very loudly said.  

Remain Leaders certainly warned about how 'negotiations' would go - with the EU sticking very much to it's rules and principles - but of course these were all dismissed as _Project Fear_ and so to be ignored as irrelevant and misleading.


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## hors limite (Sep 4, 2018)

They don't / aren't capable of giving answers. We won you lost seems to be about it.My last post raised a few questions/points and answers came their none. Here it is again:

I'm sorry but when the narrow majority voted to leave things were very different. There was the Â£350mn/week Brexit dividend that has now disappeared. We were told that negotiating an exit would be easy and that trade with the EU wouldn't suffer - nobody mentioned the Â£40bn divorce bill.. We were told that the rest of the world would be hammering on our door with new trade deals. At the same time, many people who know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do have been warning about the dangers of no deal or a "hard" Brexit. They are in their multitudes and range from the boss of Airbus, to the Governor of the B of E, to the Chancellor and all we are expected to believe that they are somehow conspirators in "Project Fear". We are told that the EU has been holding back UK exporters from developing their markets - Germany seem to manage spectacularly well. If that wasn't enough we've got Rees- Mogg telling us it might take 50 years to see any benefit. The whole bloody shambles is costing Â£3bn which could be a lot better spent elsewhere.
The benefits from Brexit are always intangible - taking back control, ridding ourselves of EU shackles. Spare us Minford, but can anyone point out what the benefits of Brexit might be?






Reply 

Report Edit Delete


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## MegaSteve (Sep 4, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You might as well ask how many Leave voters actually voted for a _No Deal. _

Click to expand...


Well, I voted to get rid of a layer of bureaucracy that Ms May is doing her level best to ensure we remain within their snare...


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			I would suggest 40+ years of being in the EU has all but wiped out our 'middle class'...
Leaving an even wider gap between the haves and have nots...
And that, more than any other reason, is why our economy is 'struggling'...
Really can't understand why folk still believe our membership has in any way been good for 'regular' people...

And, have you seen all the footage of the absolute far right/fascists marching in Germany...
Do you still feel we should be hanging onto their apron strings?
		
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The Remainers are so busy knocking the UK to see what is going on in the member states.


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2018)

Think I've got it now.

Leavers lie
Remainers just make wrong predictions.

You can't make this up.

Actually if you go by #748 you can.

Any remainers got any idea why the EU has continued to block any talk on trade negotiations similar to Canada, Japan,  China etc.


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			I would suggest 40+ years of being in the EU has all but wiped out our 'middle class'...
Leaving an even wider gap between the haves and have nots...
And that, more than any other reason, is why our economy is 'struggling'...
Really can't understand why folk still believe our membership has in any way been good for 'regular' people...
...
		
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Absolutely nothing to do with UK's membership of the EU imo! You'll be blaming UK's EU membership for every negative world event/situation pretty soon!

Btw. I think you should go back and check what the UK economy was like back in the pre-EEC days! 



MegaSteve said:



			...
And, have you seen all the footage of the absolute far right/fascists marching in Germany...
Do you still feel we should be hanging onto their apron strings?
		
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Again, disturbing trend, but totally irrelevant to UK's (or Germany's) EU membership!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2018)

drdel said:



			The Remainers are so busy knocking the UK to see what is going on in the member states.
		
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What of anything I post is actually about 'knocking the UK'.  It is often said about Remainers that we are anti-UK - when in fact by expressing our concerns and fears for the future of the UK I might suggest that we are more Pro-UK than many Leave voters who seem to care little for the future of the country as long as it is a future out of the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Think I've got it now.

Leavers lie
Remainers just make wrong predictions.

You can't make this up.

Actually if you go by #748 you can.

Any remainers got any idea why the EU has continued to block any talk on trade negotiations similar to Canada, Japan,  China etc.
		
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Actually maybe it would help things along if the government explained why...if there is anything other than the simple fact of the UK still being in the EU and therefore not permitted to engage in unilateral trade negotiations with these countries.  Have they been knocking at our door and we've had to turn them away?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2018)

I thought this video gave an easy to understand explanation about UK reverting to trading under WTO rules.


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## IanM (Sep 4, 2018)

Is  signing up for the Sunningdale Day ok as "The end of the World" is happening by next summer? ....................... no petrol for the car, no food or meds..................... just checking before I send Glyn Â£25


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2018)

I think blaming the UK gap between the have's and have not's on the EU is beyond scraping the barrel, more like looking under it.
I would look a bit closer to home.


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## Hobbit (Sep 4, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			yes I can call them out - though you cannot lie about a prediction whereas you can lie about a fact.  The Â£350m was a factual lie.  Saying that Turkey was about to join the EU was a factual lie. Saying that you'd be in Berlin the day after a Leave vote to talk trade deals was a lie.  A prediction of the need for an emergency budget and predictions in respect of employment etc were exaggerated predictions - they were not lies.  Everybody understands that predictions have associated uncertainty - and can be exaggerated and can be wrong.  Everybody also knows what a fact is; and that if you deliberately misrepresent a fact then you are lying.

But in truth what matters now is holding the government and lead Leavers to account on the lies that were perpetrated by the 'winning' side, as well as asking them to explain their predictions on how easy leaving would be - so on and so forth.
		
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Sorry Hugh but Iâ€m not letting you off with those lies. Osbourne was well and truly castigated by his own Treasury dept and the House of Commons Standards committee for lying. Not exaggerating or being creative with the truth, but lying.

I agree with you about many of the Leave lies, and the desire to hold this govt, is it really a govt, to task on delivering a favourable Brexit. But, once again, itâ€™s you also being creative with the truth.


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## IanM (Sep 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think blaming the UK gap between the have's and have not's on the EU is beyond scraping the barrel, more like looking under it.
I would look a bit closer to home.
		
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*
Econonics for numpties: Lesson 1  *Tonight' homework:

i) What does an annual large influx of cheap labour do to unskilled wages in an economy?   a) Drive them up  or b) drive them down

ii) If 400,000 people join a queue?  Does the queue get shorter or longer?  Please show your working.  Extra marks given for calling the indigenous working class "lazy"  - unless you are a Tory, then marks are deducted for being an "uncaring snob!"


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## User62651 (Sep 4, 2018)

IanM said:



			Is  signing up for the Sunningdale Day ok as "The end of the World" is happening by next summer? ....................... no petrol for the car, no food or meds..................... just checking before I send Glyn Â£25  

Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:



			I think blaming the UK gap between the have's and have not's on the EU is beyond scraping the barrel, more like looking under it.
I would look a bit closer to home.
		
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Likely find the EU gets blamed for everything percevied as wrong or underperforming in the UK even years after we've left, govt will want to divert blame from themselves and from the UK public upon whose votes they so rely. Politics is about self preservation. Seen it all before.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 4, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Absolutely nothing to do with UK's membership of the EU imo! You'll be blaming UK's EU membership for every negative world event/situation pretty soon!
		
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imo Brussels has favoured protecting the economies of Germany and France at the expense of rEU economies...
Now, I am guessing you'll disagree with that which is your prerogative...
That's how opinions work and how we'll not all vote in line with one another...
For the referendum, rightly or wrongly, the majority were in line with my views...


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## IanM (Sep 4, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Likely find the EU gets blamed for everything percevied as wrong or underperforming in the UK even years after we've left, govt will want to divert blame from themselves and from the UK public upon whose votes they so rely. Politics is about self preservation. Seen it all before.
		
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I've heard a very senior public sector employee say something very close to this......  if the buck stops with you...that the "oh pooh" moment!


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## MegaSteve (Sep 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would look a bit closer to home.
		
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Only those north of the wall have been afforded the opportunity of kicking those shysters into touch...
I've only had the good fortune of having Brussels in my sights and there was no way I was going to miss the chance...


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## Hobbit (Sep 4, 2018)

The EU ombudsman has given a damning verdict on the way Jean-Claude Juncker's chief of staff was given the top post in the bloc's civil service.
The promotion of Martin Selmayr, nicknamed "the monster" by his boss, was fast-tracked in February, in a move condemned by one Euro MP as a "coup".
Ombudsman Emily O'Reilly identified four counts of maladministration by the European Commission.

What does the ombudsman say?
In her scathing report, Emily O'Reilly pointed to several "issues of concern":
Mr Selmayr had not "recused himself" from decision-making that led to the deputy vacancy that he ultimately filled
The appointment procedure for the deputy role was carried out "to make Mr Selmayr eligible for his immediate reassignment as the new secretary-general"
The Commission reacted to valid concerns in an "evasive, defensive and legalistic manner".
She cited four instances of maladministration, including failing to avoid risking a conflict of interests, and warned that the sequence of events had placed the "wider legitimacy of the EU... at unnecessary risk".
The European Commission said it did not share all aspects of the report, but welcomed her decision not to contest the legality of the appointment.

Democracy in action.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2018)

IanM said:



*Econonics for numpties: Lesson 1  *Tonight' homework:

i) What does an annual large influx of cheap labour do to unskilled wages in an economy?   a) Drive them up  or b) drive them down

ii) If 400,000 people join a queue?  Does the queue get shorter or longer?  Please show your working.  Extra marks given for calling the indigenous working class "lazy"  - unless you are a Tory, then marks are deducted for being an "uncaring snob!"
		
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What an arrogant post...â€¦.tonights homework for you, stop being so rude and angry and try to start acting like a decent human being.

BTW the shortage of any form of labour, cheap or expensive, for the Scottish soft fruit season has cost the businesses and the country millions.


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			imo Brussels has favoured protecting the economies of Germany and France at the expense of rEU economies...
Now, I am guessing you'll disagree with that which is your prerogative...
That's how opinions work and how we'll not all vote in line with one another...
For the referendum, rightly or wrongly, the majority were in line with my views...
		
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At least that's a 'relevant opinion' unlike your previous rant!

I'm not in a position to refute your claim, though I'd suggest it has quite likely been influenced, or at least reinforced, by the anti-EU bias of popular newspapers.


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## IanM (Sep 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What an arrogant post...â€¦.tonights homework for you, stop being so rude and angry and try to start acting like a decent human being.

BTW the shortage of any form of labour, cheap or expensive, for the Scottish soft fruit season has cost the businesses and the country millions.
		
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Crikey, whereâ€™s your sense of humour gone? Especially given some of the remarks youâ€™ve put on here about people with the audacity to disagree with you......

No chance a freak drought impacted fruit industry then?  Unless there is no unemployment in Scotland, a labour shortage is fixable....


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is what I do not understand about the 'we want our country back/UKIP/Tory activists'.
They actually seem happy to cause decades of financial hardship and uncertainty to every single family in the UK.
But for what reason/outcome ?

If any WWOCB/UKIP/Tory supporters on here can give me a sensible answer the that I would be obliged.
		
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Well if you have a little think about why your chums the Scottish Nationalists want independence you will have your answer.


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think blaming the UK gap between the have's and have not's on the EU is beyond scraping the barrel, more like looking under it.
I would look a bit closer to home.
		
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So as a have how close are you looking.


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Well if you have a little think about why your chums the Scottish Nationalists want independence.

View attachment 25467

Click to expand...

Just a back door way out of the EU without having to be seen to be in line with the leave supporters.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 4, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			At least that's a 'relevant opinion' unlike your previous rant!
		
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Hilarious its like being back at skool and being admonished by teacher...
It's a political thread on a golf forum its rant central...




			I'm not in a position to refute your claim, though I'd suggest it has quite likely been influenced, or at least reinforced, by the anti-EU bias of popular newspapers.
		
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Hilarious on so many levels but 8/10 on the judgemental scale...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Only those north of the wall have been afforded the opportunity of kicking those shysters into touch...
I've only had the good fortune of having Brussels in my sights and there was no way I was going to miss the chance...
		
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You seem to have forgotten that Sturgeon offered Milliband her party's support to kick the Tories out of Westminster [on many occasions].
Milliband refused to accept Sturgeon's offer and foolishly went out of his way to denigrate the SNP, thus marginalising the Devo Max supporting Labour voters.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Well if you have a little think about why your chums the Scottish Nationalists want independence you will have your answer.

View attachment 25467

Click to expand...

Good try, but a huge difference.
Scotland is an inclusive outgoing country the IWMCB lot are ultra exclusive and inward looking.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry Hugh but Iâ€m not letting you off with those lies. Osbourne was well and truly castigated by his own Treasury dept and the House of Commons Standards committee for lying. Not exaggerating or being creative with the truth, but lying.

I agree with you about many of the Leave lies, and the desire to hold this govt, is it really a govt, to task on delivering a favourable Brexit. But, once again, itâ€™s you also being creative with the truth.
		
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I'm not going to make excuses for Osborne - so if Osborne said that there *would *(not might) be an Emergency Budget if we voted to leave and if each of us *would *(not could) be Â£xxxx worse off immediately - then Osborne was lying (no great surprise for me there).  Though as _Leave _told us that what Osborne said was simply _Project Fear_ and not to be believed, I am not sure how many _Remain _voters *actually believed* either of these things would happen as Osborne said they would.  But clearly some would have.

But to today - I am not sure that it really matters in practice what lies proponents of _Remain _might have said pre-vote - however I suggest that it matters *much *more what _Leave _said pre-vote - as those who voted to _Leave _might reasonably expect to come to pass what they were told and promised.

And it won't. 

And those who made the promises will make all sorts of excuses; blame everyone else, and some will shamelessly disappear stage right.


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## Mudball (Sep 5, 2018)

May be itâ€™s only Remoaners who exists on Twitter..  but some of the responses are worth a read about peopleâ€™s fear on Brexit. (leavers look away now).  For the sake of the child, I hope we never come to this..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1037063987068841984


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2018)

IanM said:



			Is  signing up for the Sunningdale Day ok as "The end of the World" is happening by next summer? ....................... no petrol for the car, no food or meds..................... just checking before I send Glyn Â£25  

Click to expand...

Don't worry - the Head of the WTO has said leaving the EU without a deal won't be the end of the world for the UK (and I'm not sure who might actually have said that in any case).  Though as he's an expert you might not want to believe him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought this video gave an easy to understand explanation about UK reverting to trading under WTO rules.







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I'll note that this explains quite clearly what the UK might be risking if we leave with _No Deal_ and refuse to pay the Â£39Bn we've agreed as part of our Exit Agreement. 

To operate under WTO rules the UK must have a Schedule of Tariffs, Quotas and Subsidies - and this schedule must be agreed by 163 nations - plus the EU.  If the EU opposes the schedule - as it might well do were the UK to refuse to pay the Â£39Bn - then we are rather stuck without an agreed schedule.  That could be a bit of an issue - and what sort of message does refusing to meet agreed obligations in respect of the Exit Agreement send to the 163 other WTO countries also required to agree the UKs schedule.

Not that any of this was explained by the _Leave _campaign before the vote - nor is it being explained today by _'No Dealers'_ .  And so we thunder towards the cliff edge of March 29th - just like the innocently grazing gadarene herd that, when infiltrated by demons, rushed down the steep slope into the sea and drowned.

But let's not worry - unlike the gadarene herd I am told that we will have _No Deal_ contingencies and risk mitigations in place and so unlike the herd we'd have been taught to swim.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to have forgotten that Sturgeon offered Milliband her party's support to kick the Tories out of Westminster [on many occasions].
Milliband refused to accept Sturgeon's offer and foolishly went out of his way to denigrate the SNP, thus marginalising the Devo Max supporting Labour voters.
		
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With a former leader of the SNP voicing a strong desire to punish Londoners any coalition with the SNP was going to difficult [probably impossible] to justify with Labour supporters in the south... Until he finally disappears, into obscurity, that'll be the case for some while... And, right now, I can fully understand SNP not wishing to be associated with Labour whilst Jezza is in the chair...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't worry - the Head of the WTO has said leaving the EU without a deal won't be the end of the world for the UK (and I'm not sure who might actually have said that in any case).  Though as he's an expert you might not want to believe him.
		
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Lord King is an expert. I guess you will want to believe him then, or do you only believe experts that share your personal views ðŸ¤”


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## IainP (Sep 5, 2018)

Mudball said:



			May be itâ€™s only Remoaners who exists on Twitter..  but some of the responses are worth a read about peopleâ€™s fear on Brexit. (leavers look away now).  For the sake of the child, I hope we never come to this..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1037063987068841984

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Much as this thread irritates many people, this forum may be one of the few places left where people of differing views do have some kind of "debate"
http://www.dailycamera.com/cu-news/...minded-people-creates-extreme-political-views


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Lord King is an expert. I guess you will want to believe him then, or do you only believe experts that share your personal views ðŸ¤”
		
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Is Lord King Head of the WTO?

And what of the WTO Rules explanation video in respect of the Schedule we have to agree with 163 countries plus the EU do you disagree with.  And do you think that refusing to pay the Â£39Bn Exit Agreement payment would be a good idea given the EU has to approve and sign-off on the UK's WTO Trade Schedule.  Or does not of that matter?


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## Dellboy (Sep 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is Lord King Head of the WTO?

And what of the WTO Rules explanation video in respect of the Schedule we have to agree with *163 countries plus the EU *do you disagree with.  And do you think that refusing to pay the Â£39Bn Exit Agreement payment would be a good idea given the EU has to approve and sign-off on the UK's WTO Trade Schedule.  Or does not of that matter?
		
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163 WTO Members (actually, 27 of these are EU Member States, so there are fewer voices than that) 

They do have a veto over the certification of these schedules. But certification has merely evidentiary weight. The UKâ€™s scheduled commitments exist even if they are not certified, Indeed, the EU itself has not traded under certified schedules since 1974.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is Lord King Head of the WTO?

And what of the WTO Rules explanation video in respect of the Schedule we have to agree with 163 countries plus the EU do you disagree with.  And do you think that refusing to pay the Â£39Bn Exit Agreement payment would be a good idea given the EU has to approve and sign-off on the UK's WTO Trade Schedule.  Or does not of that matter?
		
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No, He's an Expert and you like us to believe experts.  Typical divergence of the question from you again


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			No, He's an Expert and you like us to believe experts.  Typical divergence of the question from you again
		
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We are all experts in something or other.  I tend to put most store in the views held by those experts closest to, or most experienced in, a subject.  So on the WTO - I think I might listen a little more to what the Head of the WTO says about how the WTO works and WTO related matters than Lord King.  I wouldn't dismiss what Lord King might say about the WTO - but if it conflicts with what the the Head of the WTO says then for me the view of the latter would hold more sway - especially as I do not see him as having any great stake in the game of the UK leaving the EU.


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are all experts in something or other.  I tend to put most store in the views held by those experts closest to, or most experienced in, a subject.  So on the WTO - I think I might listen a little more to what the Head of the WTO says about how the WTO works and WTO related matters than Lord King.  I wouldn't dismiss what Lord King might say about the WTO - but if it conflicts with what the the Head of the WTO says then for me the view of the latter would hold more sway - especially as I do not see him as having any great stake in the game of the UK leaving the EU.
		
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Damn... you are bringing rational thinking into an emotional conversation...   as they would say in the old days..  'Off with his head'...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 7, 2018)

And on the subject of experts - or should it be 'ignorants'.

The Secretary of State for NI - Karen Bradley - tells us that when she took the job in January she did not understand NI politics.  Ye gods.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/karen-bradley-northern-ireland_uk_5b91897be4b0511db3e08f2b

Makes me wonder how many of Johnson, JR-M and his ERG acolytes have the same understanding of NI politics and issues as KB.  If their understanding / ignorance is anything _approaching_ that which KB admits to, then we might have got some insight into why they talk of the NI border and wider NI political issues with such glib insouciance.

They huvnae a scoobie


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## Old Skier (Sep 7, 2018)

Even the northern Irish don't understand NI politics


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are all experts in something or other.  *I tend to put most store in the views held by those experts closest to, or most experienced in, a subject.*  So on the WTO - I think I might listen a little more to what the Head of the WTO says about how the WTO works and WTO related matters than Lord King.  I wouldn't dismiss what Lord King might say about the WTO - but if it conflicts with what the the Head of the WTO says then for me the view of the latter would hold more sway - especially as I do not see him as having any great stake in the game of the UK leaving the EU.
		
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I was going to edit your post but couldn't remember if it was you or DfT that got a bit precious about people doing that so I refrained. I would've changed it to "*I tend to put most store in the views held by those experts closest to, my own personal opinion in, a subject". *As I think that would be closer to the truth than your original post.


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## Dando (Sep 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are all experts in something or other.  I tend to put most store in the views held by those experts closest to, or most experienced in, a subject.  So on the WTO - I think I might listen a little more to what the Head of the WTO says about how the WTO works and WTO related matters than Lord King.  I wouldn't dismiss what Lord King might say about the WTO - but if it conflicts with what the the Head of the WTO says then for me the view of the latter would hold more sway - especially as I do not see him as having any great stake in the game of the UK leaving the EU.
		
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So heâ€™s an expert, but not expert enough for you as it doesnâ€™t fit with your â€œEU is the greatest thing ever to happen ever in the history of the worldâ€


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 7, 2018)

Dando said:



			So heâ€™s an expert, but not expert enough for you as it doesnâ€™t fit with your â€œEU is the greatest thing ever to happen ever in the history of the worldâ€
		
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Typical misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the views of most supporters of Remain - who do *not *see the EU as the greatest thing since sliced bread but DO see LEAVING it as an insane act of self harm.  But if it makes Leave voters feel better then fine - pretend away that we are as fanatical pro-EU as many Leave voters are fanatical anti-EU - but please remember - we are not.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 8, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Typical misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the views of most supporters of Remain - who do *not *see the EU as the greatest thing since sliced bread but DO see LEAVING it as an insane act of self harm.  But if it makes Leave voters feel better then fine - pretend away that we are as fanatical pro-EU as many Leave voters are fanatical anti-EU - but please remember - we are not.
		
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 Good post.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 8, 2018)

Disgusting behaviour by all of those folk waving EU flags and wearing EU berets in the Albert Hall for the last night of the Proms.
They seem you outnumber the usual Union flag mob.


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## USER1999 (Sep 8, 2018)

Wearing a hat indoors. Enough said.


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## Mudball (Sep 9, 2018)

Looks like the Eurosceptic Brexiteer Tory have a credible plan but donâ€™t want to share it as it will be ridiculed... but they are not shy of calling T Mays plan a suicide vest!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Looks like the Eurosceptic Brexiteer Tory have a credible plan but donâ€™t want to share it as it will be ridiculed... but they are not shy of calling T Mays plan a suicide vest!!!
View attachment 25486

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Good point - whatever happened to the reasonable and workable plan than Dave Davis and Friends had come up with and that May ignored.  Where are Rees-Mogg and his ERG acolytes promoting that plan.  They are nowhere.  And they are not publishing because they are worried that it will be attacked and ridiculed.  Well how splendid.   Must be a cracking plan.   And some very pointed thoughts from Ireland's EU COmmissioner on the apparent almost total lack of understanding that many lead Leavers have of NI issues and politics - and so on border trade, smuggling, funding of terrorist organisations and the Easter Friday agreements.  

On these things where is the education of the British electorate by the Leave campaign - not just glib dismissals as _Project Fear_ - but addressing the real and day-to-day concerns of PSNI Chief Constable George Hamilton as expressed in the Sunday Times article today. _ '_

_It'll be OK'_ and _'things will sort themselves out'_ just do wash for Northern Ireland - because they just didn't, don't and won't - as we saw over nearly 30yrs of the troubles and *3,600 l*ives,* 3,600!!! *- and even today after 500+ days of non-government the PSNI struggle every day to keep the lid on things.

And Leavers glibly talk as if it's not a big deal...


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## Mudball (Sep 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good point - whatever happened to the reasonable and workable plan than Dave Davis and Friends had come up with and that May ignored.  Where are Rees-Mogg and his ERG acolytes promoting that plan.  They are nowhere.  And they are not publishing because they are worried that it will be attacked and ridiculed.  Well how splendid.   Must be a cracking plan.   And some very pointed thoughts from Ireland's EU COmmissioner on the apparent almost total lack of understanding that many lead Leavers have of NI issues and politics - and so on border trade, smuggling, funding of terrorist organisations and the Easter Friday agreements.

On these things where is the education of the British electorate by the Leave campaign - not just glib dismissals as _Project Fear_ - but addressing the real and day-to-day concerns of PSNI Chief Constable George Hamilton as expressed in the Sunday Times article today. _ '_

_It'll be OK'_ and _'things will sort themselves out'_ just do wash for Northern Ireland - because they just didn't, don't and won't - as we saw over nearly 30yrs of the troubles and *3,600 l*ives,* 3,600!!! *- and even today after 500+ days of non-government the PSNI struggle every day to keep the lid on things.

And Leavers glibly talk as if it's not a big deal...
		
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As time moves on, i am not anti-Leave or anti-Brexit.  But I want to see a credible plan.  All this nonsense from all the leading brexiterrs about 'will of people', unicorn land, Us-v-them, 'things will sort themselves out', 'small price to pay', 'our glorious past - our glorious future' is as strong as a sandcastle on a beach by someone with a plastic bucket and spade.   When will the Leavers recoganise that not all ReMoaners are Europilic but are only asking tough questions on 'now whats the plan?'. 

Equally i recoganise not all Leavers may be open to the idea of the 'current european structures' and may have been fooled by the divisive rhetoric from both sides... But with Davis, R-M and Boris admitting that they dont have a plan/or want to share it, isnt it time to admit that the Emperor has no clothes??

... Just for the amusement.. saw this on twitter, but cannot guarantee source,.. <read with usual pinch of salt>


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2018)

And so - I read today of a report to be released tomorrow by Economists for Free Trade that predicts an Â£80bn boost to the UK economy from a _No Deal_ Brexit. 

Well - there's handy timing - with so many pointers towards a _No Deal_ and the dire warnings from almost all and sundry about such an outcome - it's about time someone came out with some GREAT BIG BENEFITS of a _No Deal -_ and how marvellous it's going to be.  Though I do ask - why have these boys and girls been hiding their light under a bushel for the last 2yrs - because a _No Deal  _today is the same as a _No Deal  _2 yrs ago.  Must be very detailed analysis and forecasting to have taken so long. 

And if over the last two years this group *has *been carrying a bright and burning torch for Brexit - and especially a _No Deal _- I've rather missed them in all the doom and gloom - I have not seen much light from Leave on how we all knew what we - the British People - were voting for when we voted for a _No Deal_ (apparently).  But now we know - Â£80bn over 15yrs.  They should have told JR-M as he's not expecting the UK to see much benefit for maybe 50yrs.

But hey.  Â£80bn - that's just FAB - says JR-M and the Moggies.  But hold on just a wee mo - the sceptics might say.  That's Â£80bn over 15years...so Â£5.3bn a year.  Would be nice if it came to pass - but not exactly game changing given all the *known *EU-disengagement downsides of _No Deal?  _

A hard brexit will deliver a_ 'dramatic economic stimulus for the UK' _and _'technological solutions can be found for monitoring the Irish border'_

Well there you go. Who'd have guessed it.

Onwards and Outwards - to Oblivion and Beyond


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## Hobbit (Sep 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so - I read today of a report to be released tomorrow by Economists for Free Trade that predicts an Â£80bn boost to the UK economy from a _No Deal_ Brexit.

Well - there's handy timing - with so many pointers towards a _No Deal_ and the dire warnings from almost all and sundry about such an outcome - it's about time someone came out with some GREAT BIG BENEFITS of a _No Deal -_ and how marvellous it's going to be.  Though I do ask - why have these boys and girls been hiding their light under a bushel for the last 2yrs - because a _No Deal  _today is the same as a _No Deal  _2 yrs ago.  Must be very detailed analysis and forecasting to have taken so long.

And if over the last two years this group *has *been carrying a bright and burning torch for Brexit - and especially a _No Deal _- I've rather missed them in all the doom and gloom - I have not seen much light from Leave on how we all knew what we - the British People - were voting for when we voted for a _No Deal_ (apparently).  But now we know - Â£80bn over 15yrs.  They should have told JR-M as he's not expecting the UK to see much benefit for maybe 50yrs.

But hey.  Â£80bn - that's just FAB - says JR-M and the Moggies.  But hold on just a wee mo - the sceptics might say.  That's Â£80bn over 15years...so Â£5.3bn a year.  Would be nice if it came to pass - but not exactly game changing given all the *known *EU-disengagement downsides of _No Deal?  _

A hard brexit will deliver a_ 'dramatic economic stimulus for the UK' _and _'technological solutions can be found for monitoring the Irish border'_

Well there you go. Who'd have guessed it.

Onwards and Outwards - to Oblivion and Beyond
		
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You need to lift your head up and look!

They also produced a document months ago showing what No Deal tariffs would look like for both sides. As the EU exports more than it imports the balance of trade, a huge measure of economic wealth, showed that the EU would pay over Â£300 BILLION more in tariffs than they would receive. That isn't the EU as a political body, its the companies within the EU. Imagine what the UK could do to support industries in the UK with those tariffs! And imagine what the EU would need to support those companies - and with less in the way of tariffs. Add to that the enormous amount of 'lost' VAT and you might, if you open your eyes, see why it isn't all doom and gloom.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 10, 2018)

Slightly OT but still to do with UK reporting.

Anyone else notice that the Green/left party in the Swedish elections made the same increase in votes as the far right one.
The middle road was squeezed.
All UK/BBC headlines state gains for the right wing party up to 17% of votes..â€¦.which is correct but also very misleading.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2018)

Fair point DFT but I think they are highlighting it as it shows a trend across Europe which shows an increase in support for anti immigration, right wing parties. Parties that were on the edges of the political world are now becoming relevant. If equivalent left wing parties were doing consistently well across Europe then it would equally merit reporting, I would hope. 

Interesting point though. I think it shows how people generally are looking for alternatives to the political parties that have dominated in most countries for many years. If you take the UK the two main UK parties are in dissarray and the 3rd party, LIbDems, are virtually irrelevant right now. (I have not mentioned the SNP, Irish parties etc as they do not stand across the whole of the UK) There is a hole for a new party or movement to step into if someone wants to try. Now is as good a time as any.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Fair point DFT but I think they are highlighting it as it shows a trend across Europe which shows an increase in support for anti immigration, right wing parties. Parties that were on the edges of the political world are now becoming relevant. If equivalent left wing parties were doing consistently well across Europe then it would equally merit reporting, I would hope.

Interesting point though. I think it shows how people generally are looking for alternatives to the political parties that have dominated in most countries for many years. If you take the UK the two main UK parties are in dissarray and the 3rd party, LIbDems, are virtually irrelevant right now. (I have not mentioned the SNP, Irish parties etc as they do not stand across the whole of the UK) There is a hole for a new party or movement to step into if someone wants to try. Now is as good a time as any.
		
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I agree - I just fear that by their words and actions on both sides of the political divide some are pushing the UK much further to the right than it's normal fairly centralist position - sometimes drifting centre left - sometimes centre right.   I really don't think it's a good place to go - yet that is where some would take us - if not blindly - yet not fully seeing.  And if they were able the left would do the same - to a position way left of centre that will not suit...which is why I have strong feelings for what Johnson and the ERG are attempting - in his and their own self-serving way - to do,  And what Corbyn and Momentum are trying on the left.  Both I do not like and both I criticise.

But looking at this from where we are today - for Brexit to be taking us to a fairly far right position simply as a means to fulfilling the desires of those in pursuit of power...not good.


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## drdel (Sep 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You need to lift your head up and look!

They also produced a document months ago showing what No Deal tariffs would look like for both sides. As the EU exports more than it imports the balance of trade, a huge measure of economic wealth, showed that the EU would pay over Â£300 BILLION more in tariffs than they would receive. That isn't the EU as a political body, its the companies within the EU. Imagine what the UK could do to support industries in the UK with those tariffs! And imagine what the EU would need to support those companies - and with less in the way of tariffs. Add to that the enormous amount of 'lost' VAT and you might, if you open your eyes, see why it isn't all doom and gloom.
		
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You're at it again, you should know better than to bother with common sense arithmetic. Even though we're a net importer with a negative balance of payments with the EU; the Remainer protagonists just won't have it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2018)

drdel said:



			You're at it again, you should know better than to bother with common sense arithmetic. Even though we're a net importer with a negative balance of payments with the EU; the Remainer protagonists just won't have it.
		
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Yeh - yeh - it's all going to be just great.  Pity few who actually know about these things and will have reads that analysis actually believe that.  

Meanwhile - remind me again of the solution to the multiple NI border issues that's going to make all of this great future possible?


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## Hobbit (Sep 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yeh - yeh - it's all going to be just great.  Pity few who actually know about these things and will have reads that analysis actually believe that. 

Meanwhile - remind me again of the solution to the multiple NI border issues that's going to make all of this great future possible?
		
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How downright arrogantly dismissive!

It isn't going to be great, but it isn't going to be all doom and gloom as you constantly expound.

As for your subsequent deflection by bringing up the NI border, again, again, again... why not just go and look at pictures of puppies.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 10, 2018)

The NI border will be the stumbling block that the UK trips up on.
No leavers have offered any workable solutions so lets just return it to what it was before peacetime.


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## drdel (Sep 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yeh - yeh - it's all going to be just great.  Pity few who actually know about these things and will have reads that analysis actually believe that.

Meanwhile - remind me again of the solution to the multiple NI border issues that's going to make all of this great future possible?
		
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Thank you for your put-down/insult: even though my post was not directed at you personally: however, 'if-the-cap-fits'!

My past career as an econometrician is enough 'expertise '' for me to make up my mind, you can do the same. I'm prepared to admit there will be winners and losers (inevitable with any change process) but I think it will be worth it for the UK's future. Hopefully, it is the balance for the UK that is considered by a democratic government.

As to the NI/Ireland trade issues; I'd suggest you consider that the actual volume of freight and trade  involved is relatively small (not to those involved, of course) and so a balance has to be found to the benefit of the whole of the UK. The Freight Forwarding industry, Freeports and other logistics mechanisms handle imports and exports seamlessly for much, much bigger volumes of trade across the RoW daily with little or no interruptions. I'd, respectively, suggest you ignore the political football and see the reality.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2018)

And so on Newsnight this evening we have Crispin Blunt MP and member of the ERG describing the NI border issue as a shibboleth.

_a custom, principle, or belief distinguishing a particular class or group of people, especially a long-standing one regarded as outmoded or no longer important._

Good to know that folks like Blunt are taking the NI border issue seriously...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2018)

drdel said:



			Thank you for your put-down/insult: even though my post was not directed at you personally: however, 'if-the-cap-fits'!

My past career as an econometrician is enough 'expertise '' for me to make up my mind, you can do the same. I'm prepared to admit there will be winners and losers (inevitable with any change process) but I think it will be worth it for the UK's future. Hopefully, it is the balance for the UK that is considered by a democratic government.

As to the NI/Ireland trade issues; I'd suggest you consider that the actual volume of freight and trade  involved is relatively small (not to those involved, of course) and so a balance has to be found to the benefit of the whole of the UK. The Freight Forwarding industry, Freeports and other logistics mechanisms handle imports and exports seamlessly for much, much bigger volumes of trade across the RoW daily with little or no interruptions. I'd, respectively, suggest you ignore the political football and see the reality.
		
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The NI border issue is about a lot more than trade...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The NI border issue is about a lot more than trade...
		
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The solution to the NI border is a free trade agreement with the EU.  This should have been the first item to settle and then the others are no longer a problem.  The current mess has been created by the EU negotiators deliberately trying to use it as a means to stop Brexit.


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## Dando (Sep 11, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The solution to the NI border is a free trade agreement with the EU.  This should have been the first item to settle and then the others are no longer a problem.  The current mess has been created by the EU negotiators deliberately trying to use it as a means to stop Brexit.
		
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Iâ€™m sure SILH will be along soon to tell you your wrong and the EU wouldnâ€™t do a thing like that.
Itâ€™s all down to the incompetence of the Government


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## chrisd (Sep 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yeh - yeh - it's all going to be just great.  Pity few who actually know about these things and will have reads that analysis actually believe that.
		
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It's so funny that anyone who release a pro Brexit report are not to be believed but turn that the other way ................

You really are, as Hobbit says, "arrogantly dismissive" and the reason that this thread is an utter joke!


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The solution to the NI border is a free trade agreement with the EU.  This should have been the first item to settle and then the others are no longer a problem.  The current mess has been created by the EU negotiators deliberately trying to use it as a means to stop Brexit.
		
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Not quite as simple as simply a Free Trade Agreement, as the commitment to an 'open border' that has been made by all parties (EU, UK, NI, SI) would also mean 'Freedom of Movement' as well! Somehow, I don't think you'd accept that!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2018)

chrisd said:



			It's so funny that anyone who release a pro Brexit report are not to be believed but turn that the other way ................

You really are, as Hobbit says, "arrogantly dismissive" and the reason that this thread is an utter joke!
		
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LOL - 'Arrogantly dismissive' being levelled at a Remain voter expressing real concerns with very little of substance coming the other way other the usual 'remoaner' jibes.  The only utter joke - that isn't a joke - is the way that the concerns of those who hold these concerns are dismissed as irrelevant; that really serious issues such as those associated with the NI border are casually waved away with vague notions of agreements and mechanisms largely undefined.  And yet all will be OK.

Well sorry - but when I heard last night a Tory MP of the ERG group dismissing the NI border issues as a shibboleth, and another trying to pretend that the ERG isn't the sort of grouping that could come up with a plan for Brexit - that their role is to 'advise' on what os acceptable and what is not - then I will continue to highlight where issues and concerns are raised around Brexit and especially a _No Deal.  _

The FACT is that lead leavers (and the rest) do not have a plan or a *clue *about life after a _No Deal _Brexit - and why do they not write down their plan for a _Deal _or define how their _No Deal_ will work?  Because they know that as soon as they do that it will become evident that they do not have a workable plan - that it will become clear that they simply want out of the EU no matter what the damage to UK society and our economy...and *that *would be an utter joke if it were not totally disgraceful.


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## chrisd (Sep 11, 2018)

As usual, you twist opposing comments

Hobbit, I and others, pointed out that you were "arrogantly dismissive" of reports supporting Brexit


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## bobmac (Sep 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well sorry - but when I heard last night a Tory MP of the ERG group dismissing the NI border issues as a shibboleth, and another trying to pretend that the ERG isn't the sort of grouping that could come up with a plan for Brexit - that their role is to 'advise' on what os acceptable and what is not -* then I will continue to highlight where issues and concerns are raised around Brexit and especially a No Deal.  *

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Why?


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## Hobbit (Sep 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			LOL - 'Arrogantly dismissive' being levelled at a Remain voter expressing real concerns with very little of substance coming the other way other the usual 'remoaner' jibes.  The only utter joke - that isn't a joke - is the way that the concerns of those who hold these concerns are dismissed as irrelevant; that really serious issues such as those associated with the NI border are casually waved away with vague notions of agreements and mechanisms largely undefined.  And yet all will be OK.

Well sorry - but when I heard last night a Tory MP of the ERG group dismissing the NI border issues as a shibboleth, and another trying to pretend that the ERG isn't the sort of grouping that could come up with a plan for Brexit - that their role is to 'advise' on what os acceptable and what is not - then I will continue to highlight where issues and concerns are raised around Brexit and especially a _No Deal.  _

The FACT is that lead leavers (and the rest) do not have a plan or a *clue *about life after a _No Deal _Brexit - and why do they not write down their plan for a _Deal _or define how their _No Deal_ will work?  Because they know that as soon as they do that it will become evident that they do not have a workable plan - that it will become clear that they simply want out of the EU no matter what the damage to UK society and our economy...and *that *would be an utter joke if it were not totally disgraceful.
		
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And the poster saying arrogantly dismissive is also a Remain voter, who would vote Remain again.

And lets be honest here you were dismissive of a poster who commented on the facts I'd posted around the balance of trade. FACTS may I remind you that you asked for in terms of the perceived benefits.

You often don't respond when FACTS are posted up, something I find doubly disappointing when you then post up Remain facts.

All I ask for is balance in your arguments and a recognition that there are truths and lies from both sides. Brexit will lead to a massive bump, and mitigating that will be immensely difficult. Out of the EU will lead to far more opportunities in areas of greater growth. Remaining is the soft option leading to reduced growth, but still growth. I understand and respect the ambitions of Leavers and, if it goes well, it will pay off handsomely. Its not a risk I would have taken.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 11, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Not quite as simple as simply a Free Trade Agreement, as the commitment to an 'open border' that has been made by all parties (EU, UK, NI, SI) would also mean 'Freedom of Movement' as well! Somehow, I don't think you'd accept that!
		
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Ive not heard anyone asking for that. Southern Irish citizens have always enjoyed free movement with the UK


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## Hobbit (Sep 11, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Ive not heard anyone asking for that. Southern Irish citizens have always enjoyed free movement with the UK
		
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Freedom of movement for citizens from both sides of the border has been guaranteed from long before the EEC/EU came into being. The Agreement is still live, and both the Republic of Ireland and the UK have said that Agreement will continue to be in force.

The waters are continually being muddied by the EU and by some Remainer, deliberately, and some by ignorance, who play the emotion card. The issue is trade, just as it is with the rest of the EU, although to be fair some businesses are X-border. Similar issues are experienced in Switzerland and Norway, but shock horror a work around is in place.

There's some great articles in the Irish papers about the issue, and there's some very interesting pieces written by several university professors. They don't call it a mountain out of a molehill but not far short.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2018)

OK facts - Jacob Rees-Moff welcomes a forecast Â£1.1trillion _No Deal_ boost to UK economy over 15yrs and so crashing out of the EU is clearly much more preferable to May's deal...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...eal-brexit-will-boost-uk-economy-11-trillion/

Who is this guy trying to kid?

Ahh right...

And the same folks will no doubt be buying into the _'food will be 8% cheaper'_ line - oh goodie.  Meanwhile low or no import tariffs on food put UK food producers out of business - well at least that might cut down the number of Eastern Europeans required to man the food factories and fields and cut down the queues of UK food producer's trucks heading off to the EU.

All hail _Economists for Free Trade _as they say it's going to be great.  The Independent certainly enjoyed the event today...

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...baker-economists-for-free-trade-a8533021.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Freedom of movement for citizens from both sides of the border has been guaranteed from long before the EEC/EU came into being. The Agreement is still live, and both the Republic of Ireland and the UK have said that Agreement will continue to be in force.

The waters are continually being muddied by the EU and by some Remainer, deliberately, and some by ignorance, who play the emotion card. The issue is trade, just as it is with the rest of the EU, although to be fair some businesses are X-border. Similar issues are experienced in Switzerland and Norway, but shock horror a work around is in place.

There's some great articles in the Irish papers about the issue, and there's some very interesting pieces written by several university professors. They don't call it a mountain out of a molehill but not far short.
		
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Fine - then it'll be sorted without no big deal - all the concerns are a load of baloney - drones and other techie stuff will make it happen. I'm glad it's not me keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Hobbit (Sep 11, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fine - then it'll be sorted without no big deal - all the concerns are a load of baloney - drones and other techie stuff will make it happen. I'm glad it's not me keeping my fingers crossed.
		
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I didn't say that, and you well know it. The concerns are very real, and an economic impact will be felt. BUT ITS NOT ARMAGEDDON!!

Nor is there any need to treat Leavers so disrespectfully. They have made a choice. In some cases for reasons I find abhorrent, but for others its with ambition and courage.

The NI border issue is real but it is being vastly over exaggerated by some, including Barnier who is using it quite disgracefully. Read what the Irish, both sides of the border, think. Get it from the horse's mouth, not some "in it for me" politician.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Not quite as simple as simply a Free Trade Agreement, as the commitment to an 'open border' that has been made by all parties (EU, UK, NI, SI) would also mean 'Freedom of Movement' as well! Somehow, I don't think you'd accept that!
		
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SI ?
Never heard Ireland called that before.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I didn't say that, and you well know it. The concerns are very real, and an economic impact will be felt. BUT ITS NOT ARMAGEDDON!!

Nor is there any need to treat Leavers so disrespectfully. They have made a choice. In some cases for reasons I find abhorrent, but for others its with ambition and courage.

The NI border issue is real but it is being vastly over exaggerated by some, including Barnier who is using it quite disgracefully. Read what the Irish, both sides of the border, think. Get it from the horse's mouth, not some "in it for me" politician.
		
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Latest 'from the horses mouth info' that I have seen indicates that the majority of Irish folk north and south of the border would like to see Ireland as a united country.


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## Dellboy (Sep 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest 'from the horses mouth info' that I have seen indicates that the majority of Irish folk north and south of the border would like to see Ireland as a united country.
		
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When did they hold a referendum on that then ? Or is the horses mouth just another voice from the remoaners or left wing press, as the only referendums I can remember are the one to get us out of the EU and for Scotland to vote to stay as a part of the UK.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Latest 'from the horses mouth info' that I have seen indicates that the majority of Irish folk *north* and south *of the border would like to see Ireland as a united country.*

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Not according to a YouGov opinion poll conducted in June this year which showed support for unification in Northern Ireland at 42% (with support for remaining as part of the UK at 45%) and when I went to school that wasn't a majority.

http://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland-poll-3-4059433-Jun2018/


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## woody69 (Sep 12, 2018)

Isn't the big issue with NI the fact the Lords Amendment 25 to the Withdrawal Bill, passed by the Commons: no â€œphysical infrastructure, including border posts, or checks and controlsâ€ on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, but with no deal we have to fall under WTO rules and they are in direct contrast that states a hard border must be present. Kind of leaves us between a rock and a hard border.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2018)

And so today we hear from the ERG JR-M on the NI/EU border - no different from any border between countries he says - just the same.  Err No Mr rees-Mogg.  Tell us of another border either within the EU or between the EU and a neighbouring non-EU country that has the ECJ underpinning an equivalent of the Good Friday Agreement.  There isn't one.

So all the talk about border control being 'away from the border' and using established technology and imaginatively modifying existing arrangements - even if it was workable and not unicorns flying to eat their pie-in-the-sky - just doesn't address the fundamental Irish border problem...which without resolution does make all the rest nice but subsidiary.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 12, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Isn't the big issue with NI the fact the Lords Amendment 25 to the Withdrawal Bill, passed by the Commons: no â€œphysical infrastructure, including border posts, or checks and controlsâ€ on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, but with no deal we have to fall under WTO rules and they are in direct contrast that states a hard border must be present. Kind of leaves us between a rock and a hard border.
		
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WTO rules do not say we have to make a 'Hard' border.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			WTO rules do not say we have to make a 'Hard' border.
		
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Can you provide a link to back up - and a definition of your 'hard' border - and if true as you assert (and I have little doubt), then explain why that would not matter in the context of the EU/UK border in Northern Ireland.

Meanwhile Moggie is to be interviewed by Eddie Mair shortly on LBC.  Well I'll have a listen...and why would not anyone with an interest in the border issue want to hear what Moggie has to say on the matter - under questioning perhaps a little tougher than that of Nick Ferrari, Andrew Pierce or Nigel Farage.


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## Hobbit (Sep 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can you provide a link to back up - and a definition of your 'hard' border - and if true as you assert (and I have little doubt), then explain why that would not matter in the context of the EU/UK border in Northern Ireland.
		
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There are no WTO rules for borders. However, if apples crossed the border from the Republic of Ireland into NI without border controls but apples entering the UK from, say, NZ received border checks NZ could complain to the WTO that Ireland was receiving 'favoured status.' That could occur if the UK had a trade agreement for apples, post-Brexit, with the EU but not with NZ. WTO doesn't have border rules, it has trading rules.


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## woody69 (Sep 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			WTO rules do not say we have to make a 'Hard' border.
		
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Under WTO rules, unless you're in a free trade bloc like the EU, you have to obey the "most favoured nation" rule. If the UK decides not to impose any tariffs on goods coming from the Republic of Ireland in to Northern Ireland, because it doesn't have a hard border to check these goods etc. that would mean the UK is essentially giving the EU complete open access. So its most favoured nation tariff is zero. That means we would have to give a zero tariff access to every single country in the WTO


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## woody69 (Sep 12, 2018)

London no longer world's most attractive financial centre - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...=topNews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=twitter

Bank of England officials trying to remain optimistic though it seems.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 12, 2018)

Leavers suddenly appear to have gone a bit quiet.


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## chrisd (Sep 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Leavers suddenly appear to have gone a bit quiet.
		
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Hello!

We're still here and still laughing at the rubbish you post ðŸ¤£


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## drdel (Sep 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Leavers suddenly appear to have gone a bit quiet.
		
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Just perhaps the same old dross and questions (to which there are no answers that you and others will accept) has become boringly predictable.


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## woody69 (Sep 12, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Hello!

We're still here and still laughing at the rubbish you post ðŸ¤£
		
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## chrisd (Sep 12, 2018)

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Old Skier (Sep 13, 2018)

Thought I'd get in before SILH, but I see it reported that there is a worry that our driving licences will not be accepted in the EU and that travel on a passport that runs out within 6 months will be stopped.

1.  How do none EU drivers cope, before 74 it was acceptable to drive on a UK driving license. love to know from a remainer what has changed.
2.  Have you tried getting on a AC with a passport that expires within 6 months. Normally TC's will not even accept a booking.

So is the media reporting fact or fiction, do they never travel abroad and were they all born after 74.


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Thought I'd get in before SILH, but I see it reported that there is a worry that our driving licences will not be accepted in the EU and that travel on a passport that runs out within 6 months will be stopped.

1.  How do none EU drivers cope, before 74 it was acceptable to drive on a UK driving license. love to know from a remainer what has changed.
2.  Have you tried getting on a AC with a passport that expires within 6 months. Normally TC's will not even accept a booking.

So is the media reporting fact or fiction, do they never travel abroad and were they all born after 74.
		
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Regarding the driving license, it has just been suggested that British motorist could face additional barriers when driving in the EU as the UK license won't be automatically recognised unless plans are put in place. Most likely we will have to purchase an international driving permit much like we do when going to somewhere like the states, or the UK government will instead fall back on the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic â€“ a treaty introduced to facilitate international road traffic that Britain has agreed to but has yet to ratify. Hardly the end of the world, but just another little cost for "freedom"


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2018)

Can someone who voted Leave please tell me what they believe the benefits will be? I genuinely interested to hear some of the good that they feel will come out of this as I'm still struggling to see it despite looking into it in some detail. 

I want to hear about it from other sources as I am concerned confirmation bias maybe affecting the articles I am reading/seeing


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2018)

I'm loving how it is that Lead Leavers are - as we approach B-day - exaggerating - to absurd levels - the warnings that _Remain _and most business/industry/commerce leaders and economic commentators have been saying for more than two years - and that the Government is now putting out in the context of _No Deal_.  How warnings of significant delays at ports is now 'blockades'.  That stockpiling of food and drugs is now 'food and drugs running out' etc.  

And by misrepresenting to such an exaggerated extent what these _Remain /No Deal is a Terrible Deal _voices are saying - they simply aim to shore up the Leave support that only listen to them and no other - because they have been told, and now seem to believe, that all else (except that from Patrick Minford) is _Fake News_.

And then we have Moggie yesterday evening commenting on the boss of Jaguar/LandrRover's warning that a _No Deal _could well cost them Â£1.2bn a year and that would wipe out profits and so puts 10,000's of thousands of jobs at risk.  So what does Moggie say on this.  Absurd - nonsense - there just wouldn't be the tariffs that would result in such a loss. Completely and deliberately ignoring that the boss of JLR had clearly stated that the loss would come about through the impact of delivery delays impacting their JiT manufacturing.

And of course when questioned on impact on JiT manufacturing Moggie simply dismisses it as misplaced concerns and fear-mongering - that there won't be any such problems - that there just won't be such delays - and implies quite clearly that he boss of JLR is wrong.

Oh dear - the this Moggie-man is a very duplicitous and deceitful snake-oil salesman.

Are _Leavers_ actually listening to this rubbish and believing it?  Good leader article in the Times yesterday basically saying that hard-line Leave MPs (ERG et al) need to get real about the future - that they need to admit that _No Deal _is _Not Good _and they should get behind the PM.

But hey - that's The Times - to be dismissed as a Remain newspaper?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And the poster saying arrogantly dismissive is also a Remain voter, who would vote Remain again.

And lets be honest here you were dismissive of a poster who commented on the facts I'd posted around the balance of trade. FACTS may I remind you that you asked for in terms of the perceived benefits.

You often don't respond when FACTS are posted up, something I find doubly disappointing when you then post up Remain facts.

All I ask for is balance in your arguments and a recognition that there are truths and lies from both sides. Brexit will lead to a massive bump, and mitigating that will be immensely difficult. Out of the EU will lead to far more opportunities in areas of greater growth. Remaining is the soft option leading to reduced growth, but still growth. I understand and respect the ambitions of Leavers and, if it goes well, it will pay off handsomely. Its not a risk I would have taken.
		
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But Bri - what actual FACTS do Leave tell us about a future outside of the EU,  the ERG have even withdrawn their plan from release as they can't agree on the future they want.  And if they can't agree on the future shape of things what FACTS can they then tell us about it. 

I said way back then that I'd like to see a Leave Plan.  And I was dismissed as being so naive to ask for such a thing.  Of course there is a plan - but to release it would undermine our negotiating position - said all the top negotiators on here.  And I and the rest of the electorate have been told this endlessly.  And it was all a big lie.  Because there was no plan - and there still is no plan. 

I believe barely a word of the ever-so-confident 'brave new world' assertions that come out of Lead Leavers mouths - barely a word.  Especially when these mouths are connected to such as Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Davis, Fox, Leadsome (not heard much from her of late?), Bone, Cash, Budgen, Fysh and Dorries.  And they have brought it upon themselves.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Can someone who voted Leave please tell me what they believe the benefits will be? I genuinely interested to hear some of the good that they feel will come out of this as I'm still struggling to see it despite looking into it in some detail.

I want to hear about it from other sources as I am concerned confirmation bias maybe affecting the articles I am reading/seeing
		
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Sovereignty.  Mind you I was listening to Mr Johnson opining about the Chequers Deal and telling us the it was worse than being in the EU (well blow me down gently) and we would lose sovereignty.  But hold on a wee mo Mr Johnson - to lose sovereignty we first have to have some to lose.  Of course this is just what the Brexit White Paper did state - that we never did lose our sovereignty even although it sometimes felt like like.  Still - nice to hear a bit of - albeit unintentional - honesty from Mr Johnson.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Regarding the driving license, it has just been suggested that British motorist could face additional barriers when driving in the EU as the UK license won't be automatically recognised unless plans are put in place. Most likely we will have to purchase an international driving permit much like we do when going to somewhere like the states, or the UK government will instead fall back on the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic â€“ a treaty introduced to facilitate international road traffic that Britain has agreed to but has yet to ratify. Hardly the end of the world, but just another little cost for "freedom"
		
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Just another example of the exaggeration by _Leave _of concerns raised by those against leaving or against a _No Deal._  Restate in utterly absurd terms _Remain _concerns about leaving with _No Deal_ , and Leave voters read that as what those expressing the concerns are *actually *saying - and of course they don't believe it - as well they might not.


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## IanM (Sep 13, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Regarding the driving license, it has just been suggested that British motorist could face additional barriers when driving in the EU as the UK license won't be automatically recognised unless plans are put in place. Most likely we will have to purchase an international driving permit much like we do when going to somewhere like the states, or the UK government will instead fall back on the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic â€“ a treaty introduced to facilitate international road traffic that Britain has agreed to but has yet to ratify. Hardly the end of the world, but just another little cost for "freedom"
		
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Barriers?  I am not sure the tourist countries will want the EU to impose a ban on UK (which are mainly EU ones currently anyway) drving licenses.. would cost too much in lost revenue. (but I relaise that side the the equation doesnt count on this tread!  )    

And, phyiscal barriers driving between states, have gone! Maybe Spain and Portugal would ike to pay to reintroduce their border to check UK nationals nipping over to Isla Canelia for a game!  

My UK licence was ok in the States ... I guess if Trump reads what SILH has been saying about him, he might ban the lot of us!


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2018)

IanM said:



			Barriers?  I am not sure the tourist countries will want the EU to impose a ban on UK (which are mainly EU ones currently anyway) drving licenses.. would cost too much in lost revenue. (but I relaise that side the the equation doesnt count on this tread!  )   

And, phyiscal barriers driving between states, have gone! Maybe Spain and Portugal would ike to pay to reintroduce their border to check UK nationals nipping over to Isla Canelia for a game! 

My UK licence was ok in the States ... I guess if Trump reads what SILH has been saying about him, he might ban the lot of us!
		
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Yes, barriers as in something extra stopping us from just getting in our car in Calais and driving off, i.e. the requirement to purchase an international driving permit (at the cost to the licence holder). I'm not talking about physical barriers.

And you can drive in the states because the UK has an arrangement with the US. The same would have to be arranged with the rest of the EU. Something like ratifying the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic.

Like I said though, it isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Yes, barriers as in something extra stopping us from just getting in our car in Calais and driving off, i.e. the requirement to purchase an international driving permit (at the cost to the licence holder). I'm not talking about physical barriers.

And you can drive in the states because the UK has an arrangement with the US. The same would have to be arranged with the rest of the EU. Something like ratifying the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic.

*Like I said though, it isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things.*

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Just another thing that we weren't made aware of prior to the vote

And just the one thing that might just be the straw the breaks the camel's back on the resistance of some Leavers to a referendum on the Leave deal.

Anyway - I'll see your driving licence and raise you mobile phone roaming charges...


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## drdel (Sep 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just another thing that we weren't made aware of prior to the vote

And just the one thing that might just be the straw the breaks the camel's back on the resistance of some Leavers to a referendum on the Leave deal.

Anyway - I'll see your driving licence and raise you mobile phone roaming charges...
		
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You haven't bothered to thinks this stuff through...

Mobile roaming is not an issue. Some operators have already said they will not impose additional call charges. In any case you could always buy a 'local' SIM as many astute travellers already do for USA etc.

The JiT manufacturing issues that JLR mentioned are solved by numerous companies who work to & from the RoW - Japan, USA etc - another Red Herring. JLR are being economical with the truth: Indian owned and progressively moving assembly to China etc - they're playing the exchange rate/corporation tax game and the 'extra' costs are not real but accounting processes which can be adjusted depending where it decides 'profit'/added value is best located

International Driving permits have been around for decades and not been a problem for Brits driving in Africa, Australia, Middle East, NZ, Japan, USA etc etc...


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2018)

drdel said:



			You haven't bothered to thinks this stuff through...

The JiT manufacturing issues that JLR mentioned are solved by numerous companies who work to & from the RoW - Japan, USA etc - another Red Herring. JLR are being economical with the truth: Indian owned and progressively moving assembly to China etc - they're playing the exchange rate/corporation tax game and the 'extra' costs are not real but accounting processes which can be adjusted depending where it decides 'profit'/added value is best located
		
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You mean using the trade agreements that are between the EU and the RoW, that the UK have to renegotiate?

Are Honda just making stuff up? https://www.ft.com/content/8f46b0d4-77b6-11e8-8e67-1e1a0846c475


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## Hobbit (Sep 13, 2018)

As has been posted, the boss of Jaguar has been quoted that the disruption to JIT will cost Â£1.2bn a year, and 10,000 jobs are at risk. He should know best, after all he is the boss. This is more of a rhetorical question, but just how will JIT be impacted beyond the first few weeks? And how will JIT be impacted at all if someone uses a modicum of intelligence?

For example, if Jaguar place an order today for delivery on the 30th Sept, but post-Brexit that delivery wouldn't arrive till 3rd Oct then the lead time has increased by 3 days. I wonder what the solution to that would be? Well, shock of shocks!! If you know your lead time has been increased by 3 days, you order 3 days earlier.

Maybe I'm just plain stupid but am I missing something from that solution = order 3 days earlier??

And its stupid statements made by people like the Jaguar boss that really get on my whatsits. I don't doubt for one minute there'll be tariff issues, certifications and MRA's to resolve on both sides BUT DON'T TREAT ME LIKE AN IDIOT!! You know that by ordering 'x' days earlier you will have resolved your JIT issue. Or maybe he's just exaggerating for effect?


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## drdel (Sep 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			As has been posted, the boss of Jaguar has been quoted that the disruption to JIT will cost Â£1.2bn a year, and 10,000 jobs are at risk. He should know best, after all he is the boss. This is more of a rhetorical question, but just how will JIT be impacted beyond the first few weeks? And how will JIT be impacted at all if someone uses a modicum of intelligence?

For example, if Jaguar place an order today for delivery on the 30th Sept, but post-Brexit that delivery wouldn't arrive till 3rd Oct then the lead time has increased by 3 days. I wonder what the solution to that would be? Well, shock of shocks!! If you know your lead time has been increased by 3 days, you order 3 days earlier.

Maybe I'm just plain stupid but am I missing something from that solution = order 3 days earlier??

And its stupid statements made by people like the Jaguar boss that really get on my whatsits. I don't doubt for one minute there'll be tariff issues, certifications and MRA's to resolve on both sides BUT DON'T TREAT ME LIKE AN IDIOT!! You know that by ordering 'x' days earlier you will have resolved your JIT issue. Or maybe he's just exaggerating for effect?
		
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Exactly - but I'm afraid you common sense will fall on deaf ears yet again.

Anyone whose seen JLR's plant will know that their version of JiT has so much slack in the quantity of inventory they hold 'near the line' that it should not make any difference if they actually employed the principles of agile SCM !

As most modern manufacturing plants run enterprise wide (ERP) software with integrated MRP and inventory coordination 'no-one' will need to get their underwear in a knot.


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			As has been posted, the boss of Jaguar has been quoted that the disruption to JIT will cost Â£1.2bn a year, and 10,000 jobs are at risk. He should know best, after all he is the boss. This is more of a rhetorical question, but just how will JIT be impacted beyond the first few weeks? And how will JIT be impacted at all if someone uses a modicum of intelligence?

For example, if Jaguar place an order today for delivery on the 30th Sept, but post-Brexit that delivery wouldn't arrive till 3rd Oct then the lead time has increased by 3 days. I wonder what the solution to that would be? Well, shock of shocks!! If you know your lead time has been increased by 3 days, you order 3 days earlier.

Maybe I'm just plain stupid but am I missing something from that solution = order 3 days earlier??

And its stupid statements made by people like the Jaguar boss that really get on my whatsits. I don't doubt for one minute there'll be tariff issues, certifications and MRA's to resolve on both sides BUT DON'T TREAT ME LIKE AN IDIOT!! You know that by ordering 'x' days earlier you will have resolved your JIT issue. Or maybe he's just exaggerating for effect?
		
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There issue is they don't know their lead time will increase by 3 days. That's the problem. It might be 3 days, it might be 1 day it might be 30 days.


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## Hobbit (Sep 13, 2018)

Yet another technical not issued that people are getting hysterical over. Driving licences might not be valid. Very true, they might not. Just as the 73 technical notices issued by the EU show worst case scenarios, so do those issued by the UK. Both sides won't want worst case scenario, although some may well being that.

Who in their right mind believes that every single technical notice/worst case scenario will come to pass? Some will happen for both sides but the vast majority won't.

We export more medicine to the EU than we import. Of course the EU will want deaths on their head due to lack of medicine. So there's one technical notice that, although very valid, will get resolved. Overflying UK airspace from Schipol to New York, and from London to Saudi. There's a technical notice out for flying. That will get resolved. And guess what? Most of the technical notices involve costs/incomes. I wonder what that will mean for financial passporting? I wonder how VW will get their millions per year without financial passporting? Well, there's another one that will be resolved.

Some people need to take a breath and then look rationally, not hysterically, at the vast majority of technical notices. The vast majority of the worst case scenarios will be resolved.


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## Hobbit (Sep 13, 2018)

woody69 said:



			There issue is they don't know their lead time will increase by 3 days. That's the problem. It might be 3 days, it might be 1 day it might be 30 days.
		
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And after the first delivery is late by 3 days...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2018)

drdel said:



			You haven't bothered to thinks this stuff through...

Mobile roaming is not an issue. Some operators have already said they will not impose additional call charges. In any case you could always buy a 'local' SIM as many astute travellers already do for USA etc.

The JiT manufacturing issues that JLR mentioned are solved by numerous companies who work to & from the RoW - Japan, USA etc - another Red Herring. JLR are being economical with the truth: Indian owned and progressively moving assembly to China etc - they're playing the exchange rate/corporation tax game and the 'extra' costs are not real but accounting processes which can be adjusted depending where it decides 'profit'/added value is best located

International Driving permits have been around for decades and not been a problem for Brits driving in Africa, Australia, Middle East, NZ, Japan, USA etc etc...
		
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I am only raising what am hearing - by the responses I get you'd think I was making this stuff up...

And as usual - everything is  a Red Herring according to the world trade and economics experts on the board.  But why on earth should I believe a word of what I read from them - they are but experts and experts - especially economic and trade experts - get it wrong and don't know what they are talking about - unless that is his name is Patrick Minford or Rees-bloody-Mogg (who is an expert in everything)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Yet another technical not issued that people are getting hysterical over. Driving licences might not be valid. Very true, they might not. Just as the 73 technical notices issued by the EU show worst case scenarios, so do those issued by the UK. Both sides won't want worst case scenario, although some may well being that.

Who in their right mind believes that every single technical notice/worst case scenario will come to pass? Some will happen for both sides but the vast majority won't.

We export more medicine to the EU than we import. Of course the EU will want deaths on their head due to lack of medicine. So there's one technical notice that, although very valid, will get resolved. Overflying UK airspace from Schipol to New York, and from London to Saudi. There's a technical notice out for flying. That will get resolved. And guess what? Most of the technical notices involve costs/incomes. I wonder what that will mean for financial passporting? I wonder how VW will get their millions per year without financial passporting? Well, there's another one that will be resolved.

Some people need to take a breath and then look rationally, not hysterically, at the vast majority of technical notices. *The vast majority of the worst case scenarios will be resolved.*

Click to expand...

to one degree or another I think you'd agree.  The others will just be grim...


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And after the first delivery is late by 3 days...
		
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Well they say that it will cost them Â£1.25m per hour if they had to halt production, so 3 days x Â£1.25 million is quite a significant sum.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sovereignty.  Mind you I was listening to Mr Johnson opining about the Chequers Deal and telling us the it was worse than being in the EU (well blow me down gently) and we would lose sovereignty.  But hold on a wee mo Mr Johnson - to lose sovereignty we first have to have some to lose.  Of course this is just what the Brexit White Paper did state - that we never did lose our sovereignty even although it sometimes felt like like.  Still - nice to hear a bit of - albeit unintentional - honesty from Mr Johnson.
		
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Oh, so you voted Leave then?  This must all be a wind up by you.


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## drdel (Sep 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*I am only raising what am hearing* - by the responses I get you'd think I was making this stuff up...

And as usual - everything is  a Red Herring according to the world trade and economics experts on the board.  But why on earth should I believe a word of what I read from them - they are but experts and experts - especially economic and trade experts - get it wrong and don't know what they are talking about - unless that is his name is Patrick Minford or Rees-bloody-Mogg (who is an expert in everything)
		
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If you took time to read stuff and then wrote your commentary in a less outlandish way with less insults and name calling thrown at the MPs and others with whom you disagree  a more measured and logical debate might develop


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## drdel (Sep 13, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Well they say that it will cost them Â£1.25m per hour if they had to halt production, so 3 days x Â£1.25 million is quite a significant sum.
		
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Its not many months since they stopped production through lack of components (windscreens - from memory I think).  In addition JLR has kept putting back promised delivery of their 'hybrid' products through lack of parts etc. It seems to me they are a bad example of JiT planning/management since they do not do a very good job at the moment so blaming Brexit is rather a convenient scape goat !!


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2018)

drdel said:



			Its not many months since they stopped production through lack of components (windscreens - from memory I think).  In addition JLR has kept putting back promised delivery of their 'hybrid' products through lack of parts etc. It seems to me they are a bad example of JiT planning/management since they do not do a very good job at the moment so blaming Brexit is rather a convenient scape goat !!
		
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Perhaps. I don't follow Jaguar production closely. All I can find in reference to them stopping production this year is due to a lack of water supply and an agreement with the water company to stop (which I imagine they were compensated for) and delay to the hybrid being due to them trying to sell the petrol and diesel vehicles in the showrooms, but not admitting that, rather it is just a rumour/assumption, but perhaps it is down to poor supply chain management or issues with parts. Who knows.


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## Hobbit (Sep 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			to one degree or another I think you'd agree.  The others will just be grim...
		
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And that is the aspect of your input to the debate that causes so much angst. Not it might be grim but it "will just be grim." How do you know this? Which areas will it be grim in?

In the last 2.5 years we've heard so much expert advice/predictions, from both sides, some of which have since been proven to be miles away from reality. There are so many experts from both sides of the argument telling us the sky will fall in... which side is telling all the truth? You, by your very belief that it "will just be grim," are blinkered to just which way will the cards fall. You will, in all probability be right in some areas but you will also be wrong in others.


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## Old Skier (Sep 14, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Regarding the driving license, it has just been suggested that British motorist could face additional barriers when driving in the EU as the UK license won't be automatically recognised unless plans are put in place. Most likely we will have to purchase an international driving permit much like we do when going to somewhere like the states, or the UK government will instead fall back on the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic â€“ a treaty introduced to facilitate international road traffic that Britain has agreed to but has yet to ratify. Hardly the end of the world, but just another little cost for "freedom"
		
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Strange that you have had to get a permit for the US. My license has been good enough there and many other places around the world.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And that is the aspect of your input to the debate that causes so much angst. Not it might be grim but it "will just be grim." How do you know this? Which areas will it be grim in?

In the last 2.5 years we've heard so much expert advice/predictions, from both sides, some of which have since been proven to be miles away from reality. There are so many experts from both sides of the argument telling us the sky will fall in... which side is telling all the truth? You, by your very belief that it "will just be grim," are blinkered to just which way will the cards fall. You will, in all probability be right in some areas but you will also be wrong in others.
		
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Because if a dire worst case prediction is not fully or partially mitigated then if it comes t pass it will be grim - _because _it is worst case.


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## hors limite (Sep 14, 2018)

John Lewis boss commenting on disappointing results cites a number of contributory factors from their "never knowingly undersold" pledge which bites into margins in a competitive market, to the Brexit fall in the pound and to the uncertainty. Raab, on the BBC then takes it upon himself to say"  rather easy for a business to blame Brexit and the politicians rather than take responsibility for their own situation." It's just another version of "Project Fear" . The arrogance of Raab is bewildering.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2018)

Vince Cable making a right eejit of himself by trying to convince the Scots that they must support a peoples vote on the EU referendum.
But...â€¦.NO, not under any circumstances would HE allow a second Scottish referendum.
Totally out of touch.


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## USER1999 (Sep 14, 2018)

If I really wanted to know what was going on in a large company, the last person I would listen to would be the CEO. They tend to be very broad brush strokes, and have no idea how anything works on a daily basis. In my view, of course.

Similarly, if I really wanted to know the impact of a particular policy, Brexit, for instance, the last person I would ask is a polititian. They tend to be clueless headline hunters. Again, in my view.


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## bobmac (Sep 14, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Similarly, if I really wanted to know the impact of a particular policy, Brexit, for instance, the last person I would ask is a polititian. They tend to be clueless headline hunters. Again, in my view.
		
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We don't want views, we want facts about whats going to happen in the future.
There must be someone on here who has a crystal ball or a time machine who can see into the future and give us the facts.
No?
Thought not.




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because if a dire worst case prediction is not fully or partially mitigated then if it comes t pass it will be grim - _because _it is worst case.
		
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And if my auntie had testicles, she'd be my uncle


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2018)

hors limite said:



			John Lewis boss commenting on disappointing results cites a number of contributory factors from their "never knowingly undersold" pledge which bites into margins in a competitive market, to the Brexit fall in the pound and to the uncertainty. Raab, on the BBC then takes it upon himself to say"  rather easy for a business to blame Brexit and the politicians rather than take responsibility for their own situation." It's just another version of "Project Fear" . The arrogance of Raab is bewildering.
		
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Below is a quote from Europcar's current business statement. They increased revenue by 56% by buying a couple of competitors, and saw nett growth after spending of 3.4%, which also includes the changes in FX. If you look at the small changes in FX in the last year, the pound saw all its major falls over a year ago, any businessman quoting a falling pound after it had already fallen in the previous year is being disingenuous.

Raab isn't the sharpest knife, and not my cup of tea, but the truth lies in the middle ground.

For Caroline Parot, Chief Executive Officer of Europcar Mobility Group:
_â€œWe have made significant progress on the execution of our strategy during the first half of 2018 confirming our organisation into business units and the relevance of the acquisitions made in 2017. This is highlighted by a good set of operational and financial results with solid performances across our three major business units, which puts us well on track to deliver our 2018 financial objectives. _


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## Mudball (Sep 14, 2018)

I dont know why people are angry over the dire warning from the boss of JLR.  
1) He obviously knows his business. The JIT and near-line inventory about ordering 3 days early comments are too simplistic a solution.  You can bet your bottom dollar that the scenario has been modelled already by them as this part of standard supply chain scenarios. His warning will include inventory, market projections, finance availability, FX blah blah blah..   agree it might be his worse-case scenario, but then he needs to work with the hand he has been dealt.   Accusing of him being a stooge for Indian owners is purely xenophobia and unnecessary.  Remember a lot of our national infrastructure is owned by 'foreigners' - this includes power stations, trains, airports etc. 

2) The same people who are accusing him, will be cheering the same comment were made by the head of VW or Boeing as it puts pressure on Merkel or Macron to get a good deal with the UK.  Every coin has two sides. 

I am sure someone is going to come along saying that Mark Carney is a sellout for saying house prices will be down by 35%... Again he is doing his job.


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## drdel (Sep 14, 2018)

Mudball said:



			I dont know why people are angry over the dire warning from the boss of JLR. 
1) He obviously knows his business. The JIT and near-line inventory about ordering 3 days early comments are too simplistic a solution.  You can bet your bottom dollar that the scenario has been modelled already by them as this part of standard supply chain scenarios. His warning will include inventory, market projections, finance availability, FX blah blah blah..   agree it might be his worse-case scenario, but then he needs to work with the hand he has been dealt.   *Accusing of him being a stooge for Indian owners is purely xenophobia and unnecessary*.  Remember a lot of our national infrastructure is owned by 'foreigners' - this includes power stations, trains, airports etc.

2) The same people who are accusing him, will be cheering the same comment were made by the head of VW or Boeing as it puts pressure on Merkel or Macron to get a good deal with the UK.  Every coin has two sides.

I am sure someone is going to come along saying that Mark Carney is a sellout for saying house prices will be down by 35%... Again he is doing his job.
		
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Please don't take my comment and twist it. Absolutely nothing I wrote was xenophobic and neither did I say or infer JLR's exec was a stooge. My post and reference was to the way in which many foreign owners often ensure that accounts use different tax regimes to their advantage by legally 'moving' funds. Its prudent management but means that figure for 'national' performance and cost allocations are often not what they seem
.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 14, 2018)

Mudball said:



			I dont know why people are angry over the dire warning from the boss of JLR. 
1) He obviously knows his business. The JIT and near-line inventory about ordering 3 days early comments are too simplistic a solution.  You can bet your bottom dollar that the scenario has been modelled already by them as this part of standard supply chain scenarios. His warning will include inventory, market projections, finance availability, FX blah blah blah..   agree it might be his worse-case scenario, but then he needs to work with the hand he has been dealt.   Accusing of him being a stooge for Indian owners is purely xenophobia and unnecessary.  Remember a lot of our national infrastructure is owned by 'foreigners' - this includes power stations, trains, airports etc.

2) The same people who are accusing him, will be cheering the same comment were made by the head of VW or Boeing as it puts pressure on Merkel or Macron to get a good deal with the UK.  Every coin has two sides.

*I am sure someone is going to come along saying that Mark Carney is a sellout for saying house prices will be down by 35%... Again he is doing his job.*

Click to expand...

More project fear from Hammonds puppet.


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## Kellfire (Sep 14, 2018)

Why has the title of this thread never been corrected? It's phoenix, not pheonix.


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2018)

Mudball said:



			I dont know why people are angry over the dire warning from the boss of JLR. 
1) He obviously knows his business. The JIT and near-line inventory about ordering 3 days early comments are too simplistic a solution.  You can bet your bottom dollar that the scenario has been modelled already by them as this part of standard supply chain scenarios. His warning will include inventory, market projections, finance availability, FX blah blah blah..   agree it might be his worse-case scenario, but then he needs to work with the hand he has been dealt.   Accusing of him being a stooge for Indian owners is purely xenophobia and unnecessary.  Remember a lot of our national infrastructure is owned by 'foreigners' - this includes power stations, trains, airports etc.

2) The same people who are accusing him, will be cheering the same comment were made by the head of VW or Boeing as it puts pressure on Merkel or Macron to get a good deal with the UK.  Every coin has two sides.

I am sure someone is going to come along saying that Mark Carney is a sellout for saying house prices will be down by 35%... Again he is doing his job.
		
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Not angry over JLR's boss, just feel he is playing the Brexit card too much. I was involved in planning production strategy for post-Brexit for the company I retired from. He's making a mountain out of a molehill. The "3 day" example was deliberately simplistic. I am well aware of how JIT works and how seasonal planning happens anyway. Why not call the Brexit-effect an extension of seasonal planning. FX issues where the parent company is outside either the UK or the EU has been there since forever. 

As for house prices; lets hope they do come down by 35%. At least then the younger generation can get on the ladder. Two sides to every coin.


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## drdel (Sep 14, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Why has the title of this thread never been corrected? It's phoenix, not pheonix.
		
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I'm ahead of the game: .its from the new No Deal Brexit dictionary.


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## IanM (Sep 14, 2018)

After Brexit, some words "COULD" be permanently typed incorrectly...none of this was mentioned on the Referendum Ballot Paper.  When questioned, Nigel Farage refused to guarantee an absence of typos post Brexit.  He also failed to explain the post Brexit use of emojis on message boards.   Typical.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Not angry over JLR's boss, just feel he is playing the Brexit card too much. I was involved in planning production strategy for post-Brexit for the company I retired from. He's making a mountain out of a molehill. The "3 day" example was deliberately simplistic. I am well aware of how JIT works and how seasonal planning happens anyway. Why not call the Brexit-effect an extension of seasonal planning. FX issues where the parent company is outside either the UK or the EU has been there since forever.

As for house prices; lets hope they do come down by 35%. At least then the younger generation can get on the ladder. Two sides to every coin.
		
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I dont understand why house prices would fall. As long as they are a scarce resource and in demand their price should increase. The only other reason would be a period of deflation and i am not aware  of that being predicted.


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont understand why house prices would fall. As long as they are a scarce resource and in demand their price should increase. The only other reason would be a period of deflation and i am not aware  of that being predicted.
		
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According to Mark Carney a No-Deal Brexit would see a run on the pound, increased inflation and a mortgage shortage. A Chequers deal, according to him, would see a Â£16bn lift in the economy. Not agreeing to it would, apparently, lead to a crisis akin to 2008.

As we know, Mark Carney has been the Treasury mouthpiece for a while, you could almost write his script based on what Ministers have said the previous day. Yet his predecessor, Mervyn King, has spoken positively about Brexit and the opportunities it affords. King's only criticism has been the lack of preparation for a No-Deal Brexit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			According to Mark Carney a No-Deal Brexit would see a run on the pound, increased inflation and a mortgage shortage. A Chequers deal, according to him, would see a Â£16bn lift in the economy. Not agreeing to it would, apparently, lead to a crisis akin to 2008.

As we know, Mark Carney has been the Treasury mouthpiece for a while, you could almost write his script based on what Ministers have said the previous day. Yet his predecessor, Mervyn King, has spoken positively about Brexit and the opportunities it affords. King's only criticism has been the lack of preparation for a No-Deal Brexit.
		
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I think Mark Carney said that the worst case scenario would be this...he did not say it would happen - in fact it is probably the 3sigma outlier stress test scenario that he is asking banks to assess how they might cope.  Because in the very unlikely event (as he said) that such a scenario happened he wouldn't want to be the one being asked why nobody thought it might happen - as Queenie asked about 2008.  He is in effect asking banks and the government to think the unthinkable - as it is his duty to do.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 15, 2018)

That last sentance SILH, Could we'll be the case, others might well see it as " Remain" scaremongering again. I don't know the answers to this question, but did Carney forecast a best case scenario.


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think Mark Carney said that the worst case scenario would be this...he did not say it would happen - in fact it is probably the 3sigma outlier stress test scenario that he is asking banks to assess how they might cope.  Because in the very unlikely event (as he said) that such a scenario happened he wouldn't want to be the one being asked why nobody thought it might happen - as Queenie asked about 2008.  He is in effect asking banks and the government to think the unthinkable - as it is his duty to do.
		
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Absolutely! 

Unfortunately, too many people on both sides of the divide only seem to want to shout about the worst case scenario in an effort to further their own agenda. Being aware of it, and subsequently planning to mitigate the possibility is essential but shouting it from the roof tops as "this is what is going to happen" instead of "this is one of the possibilities" is both disingenuous and causes immediate damage to the economy. It also limits the scope of the negotiations as it provides leverage for the EU.


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## Mudball (Sep 15, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			That last sentance SILH, Could we'll be the case, others might well see it as " Remain" scaremongering again. I don't know the answers to this question, but did Carney forecast a best case scenario.
		
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The BoEâ€™s job while doing a stress test is to look at worst case scenario rather than a Best case sceanrio. As you will remember from the 2008 banking crisis, the worst case scenarios have domino impact which can spread in a matter of days. A 35% drop in equity can hit every one on the day they decide to re mortgage and heaven forbid they have a run on the GBP.  Banks will not want to increase their exposure and will mean people move to SVR even though circumstances donâ€™t change (assuming employment remains steady).  So Carney is doing the right thing by looking at worst case scenario.. he is not saying it will happen just that it might happen.

Unfortunately unlike bad news, the good news scenario are usually slow moving. Equally the fiscal instruments to manage them are well know. So if house prices increase 35% because of a Brexit bonus, the BoE can manage lending via interest rate increase or increase in capital ratios etc.

He is just doing his job. Also top marks to him for agreeing to an extension. He may be a foreigner but he is true to his profession and staying put.  Unfortunately canâ€™t say much about the guys who got us into this mess and then ran away .. Cameron, Boris, Farage and their elk


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 15, 2018)

Mudball said:



			The BoEâ€™s job while doing a stress test is to look at worst case scenario rather than a Best case sceanrio. As you will remember from the 2008 banking crisis, the worst case scenarios have domino impact which can spread in a matter of days. A 35% drop in equity can hit every one on the day they decide to re mortgage and heaven forbid they have a run on the GBP.  Banks will not want to increase their exposure and will mean people move to SVR even though circumstances donâ€™t change (assuming employment remains steady).  So Carney is doing the right thing by looking at worst case scenario.. he is not saying it will happen just that it might happen.

Unfortunately unlike bad news, the good news scenario are usually slow moving. Equally the fiscal instruments to manage them are well know. So if house prices increase 35% because of a Brexit bonus, the BoE can manage lending via interest rate increase or increase in capital ratios etc.

He is just doing his job. Also top marks to him for agreeing to an extension. He may be a foreigner but he is true to his profession and staying put.  Unfortunately canâ€™t say much about the guys who got us into this mess and then ran away .. Cameron, Boris, Farage and their elk
		
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Ah - mustn't let good banking risk management get in the way of Project Fear...


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2018)

Lovely stuff ðŸ‘


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## MegaSteve (Sep 16, 2018)

I reckon Carney is playing a blinder... Before the vote he predicted [in the event of an exit outcome] a drop in house values prompting [according to Cleggie] many to vote leave to potentially enable them to get on the housing ladder... He's now doing the same just in case there is a people's vote...


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## drdel (Sep 16, 2018)

IMO Carney spends too much time making pseudo-financial but politically focussed pronouncements.

He is an intelligent man who is obviously well aware that his comments will be picked over and any chance a journalist can get they will twist and big up 'disaster'. His words greatly impact upon the value of sterling and the respect of the international community for the stability/ health of the UK: he would do well to keep his mind in gear but his mouth in neutral. His loose utterances fuel speculators and the likes of Moodys' who are too ready to encourage swings and twist the markets in order to make a fast buck

There was a time when the BoE and the CoE worked hard to be neutral voices unfortunately they now chase publicity and come out with soundbites as bad as politicians. At least politicians make no attempt at neutrality whereas these apparent, seemingly  'objective' bastions of Britishness are becoming unreliable commentators.


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## Mudball (Sep 16, 2018)

Here is the news of the same meeting as reported by the FT.. yes he talks is the drop in property prices.  But hang on.. in the 3rd paragraph there is a reference to him talking up the chequers plan as it will outperform all expectations.. Damn.. how could he..
Funny that none of the red mast rags did not report that part of the story..


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## Old Skier (Sep 16, 2018)

Is see chilling is in ". " yet COULD isn't.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 16, 2018)

Scots blogger Grouse Beater calling Rees- Mog a 'Gangster Toff' made me smile and agree.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2018)

drdel said:



			IMO Carney spends too much time making pseudo-financial but politically focussed pronouncements.

He is an intelligent man who is obviously well aware that his comments will be picked over and any chance a journalist can get they will twist and big up 'disaster'. His words greatly impact upon the value of sterling and the respect of the international community for the stability/ health of the UK: he would do well to keep his mind in gear but his mouth in neutral. His loose utterances fuel speculators and the likes of Moodys' who are too ready to encourage swings and twist the markets in order to make a fast buck

There was a time when the BoE and the CoE worked hard to be neutral voices unfortunately they now chase publicity and come out with soundbites as bad as politicians. At least politicians make no attempt at neutrality whereas these apparent, seemingly  'objective' bastions of Britishness are becoming unreliable commentators.
		
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Perhaps his is indeed a neutral voice calling out where he sees risk and benefit...and it seems he sees more risk out of uncertainty than he does benefit - and that is quite logical as whilst uncertainty can often bring benefit (it certainly does for the 'money' traders) - uncertainty *always* brings negative risk.  And for as long as uncertainty remains, and risk mitigation plans remain unclear, that negative risk needs calling out.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 17, 2018)

Excellent article in the Wetherspoons house magazine...

And, from the coverage I've seen, of the marches for a second vote, it's mostly older folk...
So, still looking like the younger folk can't be asked...

And and, when will broadcasters get it through their thick heads...
It's not the voters job to explain the whys/wherefores of anything...
That's the job of PAID politicians and bureaucrats...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 17, 2018)

Probably just one of those amazing coincidences. If you compare a 1992 map of UK areas which had mad cow disease outbreaks with a 2016 map of EU referendum leave/stay votes they are absolutely identical.


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2018)

drdel said:



			IMO Carney spends too much time making pseudo-financial but politically focussed pronouncements.

He is an intelligent man who is obviously well aware that his comments will be picked over and any chance a journalist can get they will twist and big up 'disaster'. His words greatly impact upon the value of sterling and the respect of the international community for the stability/ health of the UK: he would do well to keep his mind in gear but his mouth in neutral. His loose utterances fuel speculators and the likes of Moodys' who are too ready to encourage swings and twist the markets in order to make a fast buck

There was a time when the BoE and the CoE worked hard to be neutral voices unfortunately they now chase publicity and come out with soundbites as bad as politicians. At least politicians make no attempt at neutrality whereas these apparent, seemingly  'objective' bastions of Britishness are becoming unreliable commentators.
		
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Seems to me that you simply don't like hearing what he says!

To me, he seems the epitome of 'measured' pronouncements. It's those that selectively quote those pronouncements that are 'to blame' for any hype surrounding them!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2018)

And so today the Eurosceptic Desperation and Dissembling continues - as it seems that Bernard Jenkin backbench MP knows more about running a major automotive manufacturing company than the boss of a major automotive manufacturing company - when today he tells those wanting to hear that the boss of JLR is_ 'making it up' _over the his statement that his company could lose Â£1.2bn a year as a result of Brexit.  Either he thinks he knows more about running JLR than the boss of JLR - or he is calling him a liar.

'Making it up'? You couldn't make it up - unless you were a desperate eurosceptic - desperate to keep from those they have duped (and duped they have been - they are not stupid.  Note - not all Leave voters are of 'the duped' - sadly - IMO - many knew what they were voting for) into their belief of a brave new world for the UK of the truth of the massive risk and cost to the UK associated with Brexit.  And so it will continue.

And the Brexit secretary tells us that unless we get a deal we will renege on our agreement on the Exit payment - now isn't that going to paint us in bright glowing trustworthy colours for any considering a deal with us and in getting our WTO schedule agreed across the board.

But it is what many of the duped need to hear.  As they need to hear it as the lack of any plan for a post-Brexit UK - or any coherent and well-founded strategy for the future of our country - becomes ever more obvious to us all.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so today the Eurosceptic Desperation and Dissembling continues - as it seems that Bernard Jenkin backbench MP knows more about running a major automotive manufacturing company than the boss of a major automotive manufacturing company - when today he tells those wanting to hear that the boss of JLR is_ 'making it up' _over the his statement that his company could lose Â£1.2bn a year as a result of Brexit.  Either he thinks he knows more about running JLR than the boss of JLR - or he is calling him a liar.

'Making it up'? You couldn't make it up - unless you were a desperate eurosceptic - desperate to keep from those they have duped (and duped they have been - they are not stupid.  Note - not all Leave voters are of 'the duped' - sadly - IMO - many knew what they were voting for) into their belief of a brave new world for the UK of the truth of the massive risk and cost to the UK associated with Brexit.  And so it will continue.

And the Brexit secretary tells us that unless we get a deal we will renege on our agreement on the Exit payment - now isn't that going to paint us in bright glowing trustworthy colours for any considering a deal with us and in getting our WTO schedule agreed across the board.

But it is what many of the duped need to hear.  As they need to hear it as the lack of any plan for a post-Brexit UK - or any coherent and well-founded strategy for the future of our country - becomes ever more obvious to us all.
		
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Not sure what the view is like from Oban nowadays but the horizon from where I was looking out from, on the coastline, last week was full of 'windmills'...
Apparently about 50% of their 'content' is sourced from continental Europe... That's an awful lot of Euro's...
Will EU business leaders be happy to see that income potentially slipping from their grasp?


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 17, 2018)

If JLR start losing Â£1.2bn a year then they will close pretty sharpish and the MD will be jobless even quicker. It would be a pretty appalling MD that runs a business in that fashion. I have not read the article but I can only imagine that the MD has taken the extreme of every situation, every purchase and amplified it to make a point. Unfortunately it is why both sides have lost credibility to a large degree.

The UK govt has been consistent from day 1, no deal = no or limited payment. Raab is not saying anything new, he is simply reminding the EU that they are gamling with a cheque for â‚¬39bn, or similar.


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But it is what many of the duped need to hear.  As they need to hear it as the lack of any plan for a post-Brexit UK - or any coherent and well-founded strategy for the future of our country - becomes ever more obvious to us all.
		
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Do you know they've been duped? Did they tell you they felt like they've been duped? 

Your generalisations lack intelligence.


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## woody69 (Sep 17, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Excellent article in the Wetherspoons house magazine...

And, from the coverage I've seen, of the marches for a second vote, it's mostly older folk...
So, still looking like the younger folk can't be asked...

And and, when will broadcasters get it through their thick heads...
It's not the voters job to explain the whys/wherefores of anything...
That's the job of PAID politicians and bureaucrats...
		
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What does the article say?


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## Mudball (Sep 17, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Not sure what the view is like from Oban nowadays but the horizon from where I was looking out from, on the coastline, last week was full of 'windmills'...
Apparently about 50% of their 'content' is sourced from continental Europe... That's an awful lot of Euro's...
*Will EU business leaders be happy to see that income potentially slipping from their grasp?*

Click to expand...

This is true, hence we need Biz leaders on both sides to speak up... unfortunately, when the JLR boss did, he was shot at..


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And the Brexit secretary tells us that unless we get a deal we will renege on our agreement on the Exit payment
		
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Once again you let your prejudices rule the truth.

The payment agreement was part of an AGREED outcome. No agreement = no payment so perhaps you could reconsider your, once again, none factual post.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 17, 2018)

woody69 said:



			What does the article say?
		
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Can I give you some fun Wetherspoons facts from an interview with the boss man there in the magazine:

The second most popular drink, by order, is...............Pepsi
The most sold drink, by volume, is..............Coffee

How times have changed. Pubs not recognising these changes will be in trouble.


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## woody69 (Sep 17, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Can I give you some fun Wetherspoons facts from an interview with the boss man there in the magazine:

The second most popular drink, by order, is...............Pepsi
The most sold drink, by volume, is..............Coffee

How times have changed. Pubs not recognising these changes will be in trouble.
		
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Not really sure what that has got to do with leaving the EU


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2018)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45550025


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 17, 2018)

Nothing whatsoever. It was a frivilous post about changing times, which came from the article which was being quoted. The information did come from a staunch Brexiteer though, Mr Wetherspoons (Tim Martin), so there was a tenuous link.

This thread needs lightening up every so often.


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## User62651 (Sep 17, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Not sure what the view is like from Oban nowadays but the horizon from where I was looking out from, on the coastline, last week was full of 'windmills'...
Apparently about 50% of their 'content' is sourced from continental Europe... That's an awful lot of Euro's...
*Will EU business leaders be happy to see that income potentially slipping from their grasp*?
		
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Not going to be happy no but they have to defend their position. You're effectively saying UK should be a special case and get the perks of single market (tariff-free, free trade) without being a member state. Cake and eat it time and great if you can achieve that but expecting/demanding EU to offer that is delusional . If they offer us what Brexiteers are saying they should then that's the EU finished as every other state that is a net contributor to the EU will think 'we want that too' - free trade but on our own terms and we dont have to contribute to EU coffers or accept EU nationals into our country. Can't see that happening, EU have to make us at least appear worse off by leaving the club or they are possibly done for. Thye'll be worse off too but they want to survive. They may not survive in time, but short term at least we'll (UK) have to take a hit of some kind from the EU for opting to leave, no matter the cost. It is you and me who bear that cost though, not the well heeled lot in Westminster and Brussels.


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## IanM (Sep 17, 2018)

Cake and eat it is true...... of the EU too.  They sell stuff here. Non uk EU nationals live and work here too.

ALL the TV coverage deliberately ignores this fact.

Forget voting about a deal... this is about whether you want a Federal Europe or not.  Last chance.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 17, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Not going to be happy no but they have to defend their position. You're effectively saying UK should be a special case and get the perks of single market (tariff-free, free trade) without being a member state. Cake and eat it time and great if you can achieve that but expecting/demanding EU to offer that is delusional . If they offer us what Brexiteers are saying they should then that's the EU finished as every other state that is a net contributor to the EU will think 'we want that too' - free trade but on our own terms and we dont have to contribute to EU coffers or accept EU nationals into our country. Can't see that happening, EU have to make us at least appear worse off by leaving the club or they are possibly done for. Thye'll be worse off too but they want to survive. They may not survive in time, but short term at least we'll (UK) have to take a hit of some kind from the EU for opting to leave, no matter the cost. It is you and me who bear that cost though, not the well heeled lot in Westminster and Brussels.
		
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You mean like Canada and many other countries have. Are they having their cake and eat it, cherry picking, not paying in, accepting free movement, or is this a special case just for the UK.


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2018)

There are 34 (non-EU) countries with a free trade agreement with the EU. However, to be fair, a number of those shouldn't really be counted, e.g. San Marino and the Isle of Man. But there are also a significant number of countries who are in the middle of negotiations for a free trade agreement.

So why can't the UK have a free trade agreement?

Sounds simple doesn't it. But the devil is in the detail. Those FTA's rarely include every product. Equally, the EU insist on those products conforming to EU regs, just as the USA insists on any product imported into the USA conforming to their regs.

So why can't the UK have a free trade agreement?

What benefit do the EU citizens get from a FTA? Prices of those products have dropped by, on average, 7%. But its also a 2-way street. EU products into those countries become tariff free.


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## woody69 (Sep 17, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You mean like Canada and many other countries have. Are they having their cake and eat it, cherry picking, not paying in, accepting free movement, or is this a special case just for the UK.
		
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You mean the FTA that took 7 years to negotiate?


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## drdel (Sep 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so today the Eurosceptic Desperation and Dissembling continues - as it seems that Bernard Jenkin backbench MP knows more about running a major automotive manufacturing company than the boss of a major automotive manufacturing company - when today he tells those wanting to hear that the boss of JLR is_ 'making it up' _over the his statement that his company could lose Â£1.2bn a year as a result of Brexit.  Either he thinks he knows more about running JLR than the boss of JLR - or he is calling him a liar.

'Making it up'? You couldn't make it up - unless you were a desperate eurosceptic - desperate to keep from those they have duped (and duped they have been - they are not stupid.  Note - not all Leave voters are of 'the duped' - sadly - IMO - *many knew what they were voting for) into their belief of a brave new world for the UK of the truth of the massive risk and cost t*o the UK associated with Brexit.  And so it will continue.

And the Brexit secretary tells us that unless we get a deal we will renege on our agreement on the Exit payment - now isn't that going to paint us in bright glowing trustworthy colours for any considering a deal with us and in getting our WTO schedule agreed across the board.

But it is what many of the duped need to hear.  As they need to hear it as the lack of any plan for a post-Brexit UK - or any coherent and well-founded strategy for the future of our country - becomes ever more obvious to us all.
		
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I wonder if you have considered that, some people might even have considered that the EU is on a future trajectory that would, were the UK to remain, cause the UK massive costs and political risks. The EU has major budget issues and many member nations are in dire straights and cannot afford higher contribution - who do you think would be on the hook with France and Germany.  Italy, one of the biggest has very heavy debt (like most southern members) and could easily reach 'junk' status. Juncker's plan of higher levels of integration are well publicised and the UK being outside of the Euro would come under considerable pressure. In the planned integrated Defence Force of the EU who do you think would pick up the major responsibilities: the UK obviously.

Its time, I'd suggest, to be  less myopic. IMO its not just a question of the UK leaving the EU for a "brave new world"  and because of what has happened in the past: a more important reason for leaving is the very dangerous route the EU is taking on the international stage with a dependence on Russian energy, an inadequate defence strategy and unsustainable levels of debt/low productivity in the members states.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2018)

So what do people think about Land Rovers actions today ? Scaremongering or real worries


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2018)

Jaguar Landrover announce that production staff will be on a 3 day week from Oct to March. That's on top of the announcement made in Feb that 2,000 staff would not have their fixed term contract renewed in Oct. The piece in the media also included the fact that JLR had followed a flawed policy in terms of the development of diesel cars instead of elec/hybrids. Apparently, that's the government's fault too... but the other manufacturer's appear to be making the transition into alternative fuels ok.

I am, perhaps unfairly, cynical of TATA's Indian owners motives. Having seen what they did to the steel plant on Teesside, mothballing the blast furnace. Taking Â£640 million in EU payments for reducing their carbon footprint because of its mothballing. Taking 100's of millions in EU grants to build a new plant in Holland, and selling off the UK plant in circumstances that are still seeing the buyer, SSI, suing TATA.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 17, 2018)

woody69 said:



			What does the article say?
		
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LT has already covered it... See Brexit as an opportunity, be prepared to adapt... 
Also, a good letter from Stephen Kinnock in the Times...
Suggesting an inner and outer circle for the EU would be a good way forward...


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## MegaSteve (Sep 17, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what do people think about Land Rovers actions today ? Scaremongering or real worries
		
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Covering their arses...
Motor industry 'experts' have been saying hard times ahead for JLR as they have been slow to respond to changes in the market...
Especially with regard to developing hybrid technology...
And, wanting to lay the blame for their ineptitude elsewhere...


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## harpo_72 (Sep 17, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Covering their arses...
Motor industry 'experts' have been saying hard times ahead for JLR as they have been slow to respond to changes in the market...
Especially with regard to developing hybrid technology...
And, wanting to lay the blame for their ineptitude elsewhere...
		
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I would agree some of the strategies have been poor, or shall we say slow coming to the table. But when the products arrive they will be unrecogniseable from std ICE products. 
If you ever get the chance to drive an I pace , take it. 
Professional Driver Ralfâ€™s key point relates to the feeding of the plants with components. Aston, Bentley and Rolls will be affected to, but they donâ€™t build at rate like JLR. Thus their supply chain could absorb the phaffing at the border.
The solution is simple for JLR, move mass production away from the UK and only build low volume premium lines in the UK. Make the UK plants fight for the business, take on the plant that will drop the union and has the best quality metric. That means 1 plant out of 3 survive.....
Who is the the loser ... probably the UK public. 
Business in the end wins whatever the deal, it would be wise to have a non tariff relationship with Europe, so the British public can have jobs.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 17, 2018)

woody69 said:



			You mean the FTA that took 7 years to negotiate?
		
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The UK is somewhat different to those countries in respect it already has all the standards and regulations in place for an agreement. Thought that might be pretty obvious though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Do you know they've been duped? Did they tell you they felt like they've been duped?

Your generalisations lack intelligence.
		
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It's my opinion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Once again you let your prejudices rule the truth.

The payment agreement was part of an AGREED outcome. No agreement = no payment so perhaps you could reconsider your, once again, none factual post.
		
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You think so?  You think that words about nothing being agreed until everything is agreed trump commitment? As in the Exit arrangement commitments that the UK have signed up to and that includes the payment.  So we simply renage on that commitment made?  Looks good that.  The Exit agreement is one things - it's about Exit. What happens in respect of trade is about re-engagement - they are separate processes.  And if we are talking semantics - how about the situation where UK and the EU agree that no deal can be reached...that's an agreement - albeit of sorts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You mean like Canada and many other countries have. Are they having their cake and eat it, cherry picking, not paying in, accepting free movement, or is this a special case just for the UK.
		
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Did the PM not rule out a Canada-style deal in her Flarence speech.

_She said: â€œBut compared with what exists between Britain and the EU today, it would nevertheless represent such a restriction on our mutual market access that it would benefit neither of our economies. 

â€œNot only that, it would start from the false premise that there is no pre-existing regulatory relationship between us. And precedent suggests that it could take years to negotiate.

â€œWe can do so much better than this.â€_

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...-deal-what-is-CETA-will-UK-get-Canadian-style

And from that same article

_CETA also does not offer Canadian business free access to the EUâ€™s service market.

This would be catastrophic for the UK, which relies heavily on selling its financial services on the continent.

CETA, which was signed in 2016, took seven years to complete and EU bosses have warned that the UK faces a similar period of negotiation before any deal can be put in place. _

So I'm not so sure why a Canada-style deal is now the flavour of the month.  Perhaps it's because the deep and meaningful relationship and deal promised by may and Davis just isn't going to happen.

BTW - what happened to the proposed deal that Davis was about to put on the table when May trumped it with Chequers - it seems to have vanished...maybe Davis should show us what he was about to propose...


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## chrisd (Sep 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			.

BTW - what happened to the proposed deal that Davis was about to put on the table when May trumped it with Chequers - it seems to have vanished...maybe Davis should show us what he was about to propose...
		
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Absolutely, I'm gagging to know the details of a deal that we're never going to have, that'd be so useful, bit like Bullseye "look what you would've won "


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## adam6177 (Sep 18, 2018)

A very interesting story, I wonder how many will see this for what it really is:

https://news.sky.com/story/bmw-to-s...a-month-after-brexit-day-sky-sources-11501360 

Car giant BMW will shut its main British manufacturing factory immediately after Brexit day next year for several weeks, because of the rising risk of a "no-deal" divorce, Sky News has learned.
The famous Mini plant in Oxford will not produce cars for at least a month from 29 March 2019, as the German giant activates the next stage of its no-deal contingency plans.


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## User62651 (Sep 18, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			A very interesting story, *I wonder how many will see this for what it really is:*

https://news.sky.com/story/bmw-to-s...a-month-after-brexit-day-sky-sources-11501360

Car giant BMW will shut its main British manufacturing factory immediately after Brexit day next year for several weeks, because of the rising risk of a "no-deal" divorce, Sky News has learned.
The famous Mini plant in Oxford will not produce cars for at least a month from 29 March 2019, as the German giant activates the next stage of its no-deal contingency plans.
		
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Why dont you tell us?

Project Fear....again?


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## adam6177 (Sep 18, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Why dont you tell us?

Project Fear....again?
		
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My opinion is that its a scare tactic.... a massive company threatens to shut down its plant for a month, spread it around the usual media outlets to enhance the fear within the public before eventually hitting us with a 2nd referendum to get the answer "they" wanted first time round.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 18, 2018)

Could this thread be renamed" roundabout". Some folk have never got off.


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## User62651 (Sep 18, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			My opinion is that its a scare tactic.... a massive company threatens to shut down its plant for a month, spread it around the usual media outlets to enhance the fear within the public before eventually hitting us with a 2nd referendum to get the answer "they" wanted first time round.
		
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Inclined to agree with you there, bit awkward for employees having to take their summer hols in April though - Med's still a bit chilly then!


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## User62651 (Sep 18, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Could this thread be renamed" roundabout". Some folk have never got off.
		
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I'd rather someone corrected the spelling of Phoenix first, annoys me more than it should!


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## Hobbit (Sep 18, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			A very interesting story, I wonder how many will see this for what it really is:

https://news.sky.com/story/bmw-to-s...a-month-after-brexit-day-sky-sources-11501360

Car giant BMW will shut its main British manufacturing factory immediately after Brexit day next year for several weeks, because of the rising risk of a "no-deal" divorce, Sky News has learned.
The famous Mini plant in Oxford will not produce cars for at least a month from 29 March 2019, as the German giant activates the next stage of its no-deal contingency plans.
		
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Maybe a common sense approach. I'll be surprised if they do though. Just needs a modicum of common sense to stock pile parts. But as an aside to that, they also announced they'll be investing Â£19bn on manufacturing the electric powered mini there. Sounds like they're not overly concerned about long term implications.


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## adam6177 (Sep 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe a common sense approach. I'll be surprised if they do though. Just needs a modicum of common sense to stock pile parts. But as an aside to that, they also announced they'll be investing Â£19bn on manufacturing the electric powered mini there. Sounds like they're not overly concerned about long term implications.
		
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I think thats what has irritated me most about the story.....the eye catching part is all anyone will remember, despite them clearly saying that it is just a plan for a worst case scenario.


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## oxymoron (Sep 18, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			A very interesting story, I wonder how many will see this for what it really is:

https://news.sky.com/story/bmw-to-s...a-month-after-brexit-day-sky-sources-11501360

Car giant BMW will shut its main British manufacturing factory immediately after Brexit day next year for several weeks, because of the rising risk of a "no-deal" divorce, Sky News has learned.
The famous Mini plant in Oxford will not produce cars for at least a month from 29 March 2019, as the German giant activates the next stage of its no-deal contingency plans.
		
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I would like to know what it will do if there is a deal done ?


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 18, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			I'd rather someone corrected the spelling of Phoenix first, annoys me more than it should!

Click to expand...

I suspect the mods have a chuckle every day knowing it is not a big deal but will slightly irritate one or two people each time.


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## Paperboy (Sep 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe a common sense approach. I'll be surprised if they do though. Just needs a modicum of common sense to stock pile parts. But as an aside to that, they also announced they'll be investing Â£19bn on manufacturing the electric powered mini there. Sounds like they're not overly concerned about long term implications.
		
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Heard on the radio that they are bringing forward there summer shut down to March/April. Instead of the usual time in the summer.


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## Hobbit (Sep 18, 2018)

Kopperberg, the Swedish brewers, announce they are to build a brewery in the UK to counter any Brexit issues. Madness!!! Do they not realise financial passporting hasn't been agreed? And then the sky will fall down on the new brewery.


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## Mudball (Sep 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Kopperberg, the Swedish brewers, announce they are to build a brewery in the UK to counter any Brexit issues. Madness!!! Do they not realise financial passporting hasn't been agreed? And then the sky will fall down on the new brewery.
		
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This is excellent news.. even better news that it will use British raw materials (some really good apples here) to cater to British market. Will also create jobs here. Excellent way to counter the impact of Brexit in a major market. Passporting not relevant here, so full marks to everyone for what the story is worth. We need more of these..


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## Dando (Sep 18, 2018)

Mudball said:



			This is excellent news.. even better news that it will use British raw materials (some really good apples here) to cater to British market. Will also create jobs here. Excellent way to counter the impact of Brexit in a major market. Passporting not relevant here, so full marks to everyone for what the story is worth. We need more of these..
		
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Iâ€™m sure our resident doom monger will come along soon with something negative!


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## Hobbit (Sep 18, 2018)

Mudball said:



			This is excellent news.. even better news that it will use British raw materials (some really good apples here) to cater to British market. Will also create jobs here. Excellent way to counter the impact of Brexit in a major market. Passporting not relevant here, so full marks to everyone for what the story is worth. We need more of these..
		
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Passporting may well be relevant if it has to return a dividend to the parent company. It was a little tongue in cheek anyway as financial passporting will be resolved. There's billions being moved every day. Not passporting it would cause untold damage to all sides.


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## Hobbit (Sep 19, 2018)

Oh look. Michel Barnier has said that he wishes to offer a different proposal for the NI border. Checks on goods to be carried out away from the border, and that any backstop proposal should recognise and respect the UK's territorial integrity.

Isn't that exactly what the UK has been asking for? I look forward to hearing from the hysterical on here who have screamed long and hard that the UK needed to bend further in its negotiations. Is it the Brexiteers that are stupid, or duped, or is it some rabid Remainers that need to have a good look at themselves?


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## bobmac (Sep 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Oh look. Michel Barnier has said that he wishes to offer a different proposal for the NI border. Checks on goods to be carried out away from the border, and that any backstop proposal should recognise and respect the UK's territorial integrity.

Isn't that exactly what the UK has been asking for? I look forward to hearing from the hysterical on here who have screamed long and hard that the UK needed to bend further in its negotiations. Is it the Brexiteers that are stupid, or duped, or is it some rabid Remainers that need to have a good look at themselves?
		
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You just know there will be a ''but what if..............''


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## Hobbit (Sep 19, 2018)

bobmac said:



			You just know there will be a ''but what if..............''
		
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Best not mention the 4 founding principles that the EU said they wouldn't cross. One or two are starting to look a little fuzzy.


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## chrisd (Sep 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Best not mention the 4 founding principles that the EU said they wouldn't cross. One or two are starting to look a little fuzzy.
		
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Exactly Brian. So why does the EU not offer now a hugely better deal than they did in the Cameron negotiations and address our concerns over immigration,  self law making etc etc and then tie the offer to another vote on the whole matter of staying in, or going "no deal". I'm still convinced we would stay in if the EU would do this and even more convinced that the EU is doomed if we prosper when leaving and, more importantly, other member countries who are already fed up with the open border policy for immigration decide to follow our lead.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 19, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Exactly Brian. So why does the EU not offer now a hugely better deal than they did in the Cameron negotiations and address our concerns over immigration,  self law making etc etc and then tie the offer to another vote on the whole matter of staying in, or going "no deal". I'm still convinced we would stay in if the EU would do this and even more convinced that the EU is doomed if we prosper when leaving and, more importantly, other member countries who are already fed up with the open border policy for immigration decide to follow our lead.
		
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DaveCams paymasters ['big business'] didn't want him rocking the boat too much...
So, he probably didn't make his [our] point with much conviction/force...
However, Dave thought he was a winner [bless]...
And, he was going to convince us [the people], that despite all its faults, the EU was a 'club' still worthy of our membership...
To coin a phrase... We weren't for turning...


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## Mudball (Sep 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Passporting may well be relevant if it has to return a dividend to the parent company. It was a little tongue in cheek anyway as financial passporting will be resolved. There's billions being moved every day. Not passporting it would cause untold damage to all sides.
		
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As I understand it, Passporting not relevant here as this is about repatriation of profits/losses.  This is more like foreign direct investment.  Passporting may become relevant only if they are taking the money and moving it through the system via some form of financial engineering via investment vehicles blah blah...  if they adopt the bland way, they will be fine and wont be impacted.  The unknown challenge is how is the post-Brexit UK going allow repatriation to EU firms.  Equally, Kopperberg could choose to setup in Caymen, so profits are not affected at all.   

I know your Passporting statement was tongue in cheek, so lets leave it there.   As i said, the good news story is that someone is investing here and thats the important bit.  We need more - Brexit or no-Brexit.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 19, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Exactly Brian. So why does the EU not offer now a hugely better deal than they did in the Cameron negotiations and address our concerns over immigration,  self law making etc etc and then tie the offer to another vote on the whole matter of staying in, or going "no deal". I'm still convinced we would stay in if the EU would do this and even more convinced that the EU is doomed if we prosper when leaving and, more importantly, other member countries who are already fed up with the open border policy for immigration decide to follow our lead.
		
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Because I believe they know they're doomed without us Chris. They know if we go then others will follow and the whole sorry house of cards crumbles, so despite what their own manufacturers tell them, they'd rather cut their own throats in the process of dragging us down than do a deal as it will set a precedent for others.  Am I surprised they're prepared to concede on their founding principles: no, I'm not.  They've shown in the past they're prepared to turn a blind eye to stuff when it suits them so I'm not surprised they'll do something now that their threats aren't working as well as they'd like.


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## chrisd (Sep 19, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Because I believe they know they're doomed without us Chris. They know if we go then others will follow and the whole sorry house of cards crumbles, so despite what their own manufacturers tell them, they'd rather cut their own throats in the process of dragging us down than do a deal as it will set a precedent for others.  Am I surprised they're prepared to concede on their founding principles: no, I'm not.  They've shown in the past they're prepared to turn a blind eye to stuff when it suits them so I'm not surprised they'll do something now that their threats aren't working as well as they'd like.
		
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But, and I agree with your post entirely, reform the club and persuade us to stay and I doubt that it'll fail, win win situation for everyone


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 20, 2018)

chrisd said:



			But, and I agree with your post entirely, reform the club and persuade us to stay* and I doubt that it'll fail, win win situation for everyone*

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Can't agree with that unless there are substantial changes Chris, and they will never happen.  The EU will continue to allow lame duck economies to join in their ambition to form a European superstate which the net contributors will have to keep afloat, the matter of the accounts is another sticking point and the issue that they, or certain member states, apply rules when it suits and ignore them when it doesn't.  It needs a total clear out at the top and a new direction to persuade me to stay, and in my opinion there are too many snouts in the trough for that to come to pass.


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## chrisd (Sep 20, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can't agree with that unless there are substantial changes Chris, and they will never happen.  The EU will continue to allow lame duck economies to join in their ambition to form a European superstate which the net contributors will have to keep afloat, the matter of the accounts is another sticking point and the issue that they, or certain member states, apply rules when it suits and ignore them when it doesn't.  It needs a total clear out at the top and a new direction to persuade me to stay, and in my opinion there are too many snouts in the trough for that to come to pass.
		
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Once again, I feel the same and did vote for Brexit for all these reasons, but, run properly, legally and financially, it does bring benefits to everyone. I guess they'll never be able to turn it round as those running it are clearly on a power trip and will bend and break the rules as and when. It's a shame as a functioning EU brings poorer nations up to a better standard which is good for everyone in the long term , , but if it isn't going to work then we're best out at the earliest stage and, let's face it, they never wanted us in in the first place!


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 20, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Once again, I feel the same and did vote for Brexit for all these reasons, but, run properly, legally and financially, it does bring benefits to everyone. I guess they'll never be able to turn it round as those running it are clearly on a power trip and will bend and break the rules as and when. It's a shame as a functioning EU brings poorer nations up to a better standard which is good for everyone in the long term , , but if it isn't going to work then we're best out at the earliest stage and, let's face it, they never wanted us in in the first place!
		
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And I'd agree that properly run both legally and financially it can be greatly beneficial: sadly I don't believe it will ever happen.  I also have concerns that whether we leave now or stay, the whole thing will come tumbling down if some of the rumours about the state of finances and banks in some member states are true, and I'd rather be outside without financial liability when it happens than inside and looking at a huge bill.


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## Hobbit (Sep 20, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Exactly Brian. So why does the EU not offer now a hugely better deal than they did in the Cameron negotiations and address our concerns over immigration,  self law making etc etc and then tie the offer to another vote on the whole matter of staying in, or going "no deal". I'm still convinced we would stay in if the EU would do this and even more convinced that the EU is doomed if we prosper when leaving and, more importantly, other member countries who are already fed up with the open border policy for immigration decide to follow our lead.
		
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I had hoped that the EU would be more creative and recognise that there areas within the EU structure that needed reviewing in an effort to address the growth in the far right. There's now a Farage in a number of EU countries, some of which are in positions of power, and causing a number f fundamental issues for the EU. That, and the growing federalism seeing more and more control being centralised in Brussels.

On immigration; the EU is considering taking Hungary to court over its refusal to allow migration. Italy is refusing vessel after vessel full of rescued migrants. Juncker wants 10,000 EU controlled border guards - that's guards in a country who will be controlled from Brussels.

Defence; Macron is pushing for the EU defence army. Not a bad thing when you just can't trust Trump to support NATO. However, the DEFENCE bit appears to be a misnomer as the force will include a global intervention force. Merkel supports it and has said she wants the UK included whatever the outcome of Brexit. Why? The UK has the second largest military in the EU.

2021 to 2027 budget; the UK contributions are scheduled to rise to Â£21bn from 2021. Take off the rebate, which the EU have said they want to end, and that leaves a net payment of Â£15bn, as rise of pushing 45%.

A trading bloc, with some integration in common operational areas, but how can a non-federalist country like the UK ever reconcile itself to being in the current version of the EU?


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## woody69 (Sep 20, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Because I believe they know they're doomed without us Chris. They know if we go then others will follow and the whole sorry house of cards crumbles, so despite what their own manufacturers tell them, they'd rather cut their own throats in the process of dragging us down than do a deal as it will set a precedent for others.  Am I surprised they're prepared to concede on their founding principles: no, I'm not.  They've shown in the past they're prepared to turn a blind eye to stuff when it suits them so I'm not surprised they'll do something now that their threats aren't working as well as they'd like.
		
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I think the EU will do fine without the UK. We really do appear to have an over inflated level of self-importance don't we.


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## Foxholer (Sep 20, 2018)

woody69 said:





Blue in Munich said:



			Because I believe they know they're doomed without us Chris. They know if we go then others will follow and the whole sorry house of cards crumbles, so despite what their own manufacturers tell them, they'd rather cut their own throats in the process of dragging us down than do a deal as it will set a precedent for others.  Am I surprised they're prepared to concede on their founding principles: no, I'm not.  They've shown in the past they're prepared to turn a blind eye to stuff when it suits them so I'm not surprised they'll do something now that their threats aren't working as well as they'd like.
		
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I think the EU will do fine without the UK. We really do appear to have an over inflated level of self-importance don't we.
		
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My view too!

Both will however, imo, be 'poorer' for the split!

The EU does, imo, need some sort of reform so that more oversight - of both financial and policy aspects - is returned to those funding the 'projects' being implemented. (Con)Federalism as a form of government is not necessarily bad - it works pretty well in Canada and US. The 'sticking point' is in getting the balance of power between Central and Regional authorities correct! It seems, to me, that the EU 'authority' is getting too strong (towards authoritarian Federalism) - and needs to have its policy making power reduced somewhat, perhaps significantly.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 20, 2018)

woody69 said:



			I think the EU will do fine without the UK. We really do appear to have an over inflated level of self-importance don't we.
		
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So how are they going to cover the gaping hole in the contributions then?

We donâ€™t have an overinflated sense of self importance, but we do have some realisation of what the loss of income will do and that other countries are watching the outcome with interest.


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## Foxholer (Sep 20, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			So how are they going to cover the gaping hole in the contributions then?
...
		
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Well, tarrifs on Â£274 billion worth of imports from UK will certainly help!


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## Old Skier (Sep 20, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Well, tarrifs on Â£274 billion worth of imports from UK will certainly help!
		
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How much would our import tariffs from the EU mount up to.


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## drdel (Sep 20, 2018)

Despite how important Brussels says a deal is needed they only managed to find the UK 8 minutes for communication to the heads of the 27 member states.

The complete lack of dialogue between the Heads of the 27 demonstrates how totally undemocratic and isolated from the citizens of the individual nations the organisation has become.


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## Foxholer (Sep 20, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			How much would our import tariffs from the EU mount up to.
		
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Irrelevant to the point BiM was making!

But would certainly contribute to the *UK Treasury's* booty (via UK consumers of course!), if not, directly, to that of any UK company!


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## Foxholer (Sep 20, 2018)

drdel said:



			Despite how important Brussels says a deal is needed they only managed to find the UK 8 minutes for communication to the heads of the 27 member states.

The complete lack of dialogue between the Heads of the 27 demonstrates how totally undemocratic and isolated from the citizens of the individual nations the organisation has become.
		
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Or how weak/irrelevant the UK's position has become! 

Irrespective of atitudes of those on a Golf forum, there was certainly a significant announcement, with both negative and positive content, by the EU President!


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## USER1999 (Sep 20, 2018)

Apparently the EU27 are overwhelmingly in favour of the UK having another referendum.

Well, they would be.


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## drdel (Sep 20, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Apparently the EU27 are overwhelmingly in favour of the UK having another referendum.

Well, they would be.
		
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They certainly encouraged/forced Ireland to keep trying to get the 'right' answer.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 20, 2018)

We will supply the Bramleys from
Royal Norwood for Koppaberg. Nothing rammel about our first class scrumpers.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 20, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Apparently the EU27 are overwhelmingly in favour of the UK having another referendum.

Well, they would be.
		
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Whats the EU word for sod off.
Probably the opposite of Democracy.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 20, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1042808891107667968


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## Foxholer (Sep 20, 2018)

drdel said:



			They certainly encouraged/forced Ireland to keep trying to get the 'right' answer.
		
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So you don't consider it had anything to do with the amendments made to the Treaty subsequent to the 'No' result of the 1st referendum!


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## Dellboy (Sep 20, 2018)

The EU will implode within 4-5 years once we have gone, lack of money, in fighting between countries and soon there will be other counties lining up to leave the corrupt dictatorship once they see the world wont stop spinning outside of the EU.


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## drdel (Sep 20, 2018)

Dellboy said:



			The EU will implode within 4-5 years once we have gone, lack of money, in fighting between countries and soon there will be other counties lining up to leave the corrupt dictatorship once they see the world wont stop spinning outside of the EU.
		
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Take just two members. Italy already has trillions of debt it can't repay. Greece has debt that the borrows refuse admit is unrecoverable.  I just fail to see how the EU still thinks their sums can ever add up, even after massive levels of QE.


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## Hobbit (Sep 20, 2018)

drdel said:



			Take just two members. Italy already has trillions of debt it can't repay. Greece has debt that the borrows refuse admit is unrecoverable.  I just fail to see how the EU still thinks their sums can ever add up, even after massive levels of QE.
		
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Greece's debt is 160% of GDP. In other words, it rises 100's of times quicker than the country makes money.


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## Mudball (Sep 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Greece's debt is 160% of GDP. In other words, it rises 100's of times quicker than the country makes money.
		
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Without wanting to absolve Greece or any of the PIGS economies, each country goes through these kind of cycle... Ireland and Iceland went through it.   UK deficit is 85% of GDP while the grand daddy, US deficit is at 106%...    Would anyone stop the US if they want to join the EU - though HE is trying to get the US out of everything ..


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## 2blue (Sep 21, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Apparently the EU27 are overwhelmingly in favour of the UK having another referendum.

Well, they would be.
		
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Very sensible....  its always good to be sure....  or are some folk worried about other things!! We need democracy to be working!!


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## Dellboy (Sep 21, 2018)

2blue said:



			We need democracy to be working!!
		
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Working very well in this fine country.

Asked if we wanted to leave the EU or not, the majority of the population agreed itâ€™s best to dump the EU, Scotland asked if itâ€™s better off to stay in the UK, majority of the population agreed it would be better to stay, working just fine.


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## IanM (Sep 21, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Greece's debt is 160% of GDP. In other words, it rises 100's of times quicker than the country makes money.
		
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So. One of the few net contributors wants to leave...and the EU Leaders spend only a few minutes discussing it?

Above someone said â€œthatâ€™s because we are so irrelevantâ€.... (why have so many been brought up to think like that.)

Iâ€™d say itâ€™s because of either sheer arrogance or certainty that a stitch up has been done.  Actually, itâ€™s both.


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## Foxholer (Sep 21, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Greece's debt is 160% of GDP. In other words, *it rises 100's of times quicker than the country makes money*.
		
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Er, notwithstanding my agreement that Greece is indeed a 'basket case', please explain how you interpret the Debt=160% GDP as the bit in bold? Btw, the figure I've seen is actually 180%! 

Debt as percentage of GDP doesnt seem to be universally satisfactory metric! Japan's (a traditionally strong financial country) is 223% and Singapore is around 115%. Russia, supposedly lso borderline basket case is 12%!


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## Tashyboy (Sep 21, 2018)

This is a quote from a political analyst working for the BBC after Missis May said that the EU must respect the UK

â€œHer problem is that they want to push her in different directions.â€

Meaning the EU, some  Labour MPs, tory mps, etc etc. She/ Brexit is not  gonna please everyone.

Tashyboy can see No deal being the final outcome.


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## adam6177 (Sep 21, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Tashyboy can see No deal being the final outcome.
		
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to be honest I'm thinking that's going to be the best outcome..... on the assumption that the EU wont compromise....... but lets be honest, its what the EU has always done, rule with an iron fist and bully its members into doing what it tells them to.

Cant wait to be out.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 21, 2018)

Dont know if its fake news but ave seen a clip of 30 yrs today missis T******r (sorry i cannot say her name) sayingâ€ no no no to â€œ the EU. 
Seems missis May is saying the same thing. It was wrong then. Its wrong now.


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## bluewolf (Sep 21, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			to be honest I'm thinking that's going to be the best outcome..... on the assumption that the EU wont compromise....... but lets be honest, its what the EU has always done, rule with an iron fist and bully its members into doing what it tells them to.

Cant wait to be out.
		
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To be fair to them, they haven't really budged since this all started. Everyone and their dog knew the Chequers deal was a non-starter. For it to be portrayed as an ambush is almost Blackadder-esque in its utter stupidity. 

Mystifyingly, she's now decided to double down on a deal that was never going to be acceptable. She's either taking very bad advice or ignoring very good advice. 

Whichever side of the debate you find yourself on, you have to be bemused/embarrassed/stunned by the way we have gone about negotiating. We're like the kid in the playground who threatens to take his ball home whilst completely ignoring the fact that everyone else also has a ball ðŸ˜‚


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 21, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Dont know if its fake news but ave seen a clip of 30 yrs today missis T******r (sorry i cannot say her name) sayingâ€ no no no to â€œ the EU.
Seems missis May is saying the same thing. It was wrong then. Its wrong now.
		
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The Common Market was a fine concept but it all went pear shaped when we signed the Maastricht and Rome treaties which basically handed over our sovereignty. Absolutely no issues trading with Europe but being ruled by them?  No thanks!


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## bluewolf (Sep 21, 2018)

drive4show said:



			The Common Market was a fine concept but it all went pear shaped when we signed the Maastricht and Rome treaties which basically handed over our sovereignty. Absolutely no issues trading with Europe but being ruled by them?  No thanks!
		
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As a brief diversion, exactly how have you been affected by this supposed lack of Sovereignty? ðŸ˜‰

Anyway, as long as we can get nice bottles of red then where's the problem?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 21, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			As a brief diversion, exactly how have you been affected by this supposed lack of Sovereignty? ðŸ˜‰

Anyway, as long as we can get nice bottles of red then where's the problem?
		
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I can't smack my kids anymore!  

Europe can shove it's red wine where the sun doesn't shine, New World is the future


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## bluewolf (Sep 21, 2018)

drive4show said:



			I can't smack my kids anymore!  

Europe can shove it's red wine where the sun doesn't shine, New World is the future 

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Can't argue with that. Give me New Zealand, South American wines every day ðŸ‘


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 21, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			As a brief diversion, exactly how have you been affected by this supposed lack of Sovereignty? ðŸ˜‰

Anyway, as long as we can get nice bottles of red then where's the problem?
		
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......and while you are at it, please also clarify if it is English or Scots sovereignty that we have supposed to have lost.


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## drdel (Sep 21, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Can't argue with that. Give me New Zealand, South American wines every day ðŸ‘
		
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Good grief man you mean there are products available from outside the EU - they can't possibly be any good !!


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## IanM (Sep 21, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			As a brief diversion, exactly how have you been affected by this supposed lack of Sovereignty? ðŸ˜‰?
		
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Apart from restrictions on trade deals, attempting to remove our seat at the IMO, plans for an EU Army, EU law superceeding  UK in all cases, not being to regulate our own borders (I could go on). absolutely none at all

Ok the Army hasnâ€™t effected me personally, but the other have in my working life directly...I could say more, but Not allowed.

... getting out might be easier if they hadnâ€™t grabbed all these powers Remainers keep telling me we canâ€™t survive without


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## IanM (Sep 21, 2018)

Dellboy said:



			The EU will implode within 4-5 years once we have gone, lack of money, in fighting between countries and soon there will be other counties lining up to leave the corrupt dictatorship once they see the world wont stop spinning outside of the EU.
		
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If they impeach Hungary for not accepting refugees, their Prez will say â€œscrew you, weâ€™re offskiâ€...no Referendum no nothing.  Watch their neighbours follow... really interesting.  Our PM is only pretending as Iâ€™ve been saying for months  Be delighted to be proved wrong!


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## bluewolf (Sep 21, 2018)

IanM said:



			Apart from restrictions on trade deals, attempting to remove our seat at the IMO, plans for an EU Army, EU law superceeding  UK in all cases, not being to regulate our own borders (I could go on). absolutely none at all

Ok the Army hasnâ€™t effected me personally, but the other have in my working life directly...I could say more, but Not allowed.

The post Referendum ongoing Remain Campaign also tells me that without the EU, we cannot function and would have all sorts of really awful laws seems to confirm this.  But of course, they might be lying.
		
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Ok then, the Trade deals response will only be fully understood when we have left the EU and see what deals we can negotiate. 
I can't comment on the IMO as I have no knowledge of it. 
The EU Army appears a dead duck as we would have a veto anyway. 
EU law does supercede UK law, but in all honesty, I haven't really seen any real negatives from that. I have seen several positives though.
We can control our own borders, we just don't as it's too expensive and we need immigration to continue economic growth. 

Sorry for the rushed and clumsy answer, I'm in a rush to get out of the house..

My response to my question is that I haven't seen any real negatives to our supposed loss of Sovereignty. Maybe it's because I consider myself as much European (German Mother/Irish Father) as I do British. My viewpoint may be different to most. I'll mourn our loss of a social connection. Our position as a Global Player is also significantly under threat as we'll be dealing with major trading blocks all over the World. We won't have a strong hand..

Anyway.. Must go ;-)


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## Fade and Die (Sep 21, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			......and while you are at it, please also clarify if it is English or Scots sovereignty that we have supposed to have lost.
		
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Thatâ€™ll be English. You lost yours in 1707.


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## IanM (Sep 21, 2018)

Item one.  That wasnâ€™t what I was referring to
Item two. Worth researching , itâ€™s serious
Item three. Weâ€™ll see.  I found this weeks pics of uk forces with eu flags on kit worrying. You can only veto what you get consulted on
Item four. So thatâ€™s a yes.
Item five.  Some immigrantion yes, Open no.   Do we have surplus jobs and services in the economy?  Far from it.

My ancestors Russians and Lithuanians, so Iâ€™m not exactly full Brit either.  Your bit about influence is fair enough, but depends on will of the government....not seeing much of that currently


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## bluewolf (Sep 21, 2018)

IanM said:



			Item one.  That wasnâ€™t what I was referring to
Item two. Worth researching , itâ€™s serious
Item three. Weâ€™ll see.  I found this weeks pics of uk forces with eu flags on kit worrying. You can only veto what you get consulted on
Item four. So thatâ€™s a yes.
Item five.  Some immigrantion yes, Open no.   Do we have surplus jobs and services in the economy?  Far from it.

My ancestors Russians and Lithuanians, so Iâ€™m not exactly full Brit either.  Your bit about influence is fair enough, but depends on will of the government....not seeing much of that currently
		
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I suspect we're seeing the same issues but want different solutions. 
With regards to immigration, we can close as many borders as we want. If we don't invest in policing them then who's going to stop people coming in? And if we do stop them, who's going to grow the population and in turn grow the economy?

I've said my bit on EU law. 

The will of the government is the real issue here. By detaching ourselves from Europe, we've actually given more power to the people most at fault for our current predicament. Career, trough snouting politicos are rubbing their hands together. 

FWIW, the biggest effect on me and my family has been the downward pressure on wages. All my bills have stayed fairly static. Who's at fault for that? Austerity wasn't an EU position. It's purely a domestic one, caused by a global crash. Some would have us believe that it's caused by cheap labour from Europe. Bit of a strange one as all the Europeans that have ever worked for me have been on exactly the same wage as the locals.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 21, 2018)

_Aston Martin Chief Executive Officer Andy Palmer said that Brexit is â€œa disaster for the industry on both sides of the Channel if there is no negotiated exit.â€ _

Now where is that master of risk and issues management - Chris Grayling - when you need him as we need him to tell this car boss that he is wrong...that he - Chris Grayling - knows more about cars than trains and so should be listened to as he is being listened to on trains and that Palmer is mistaken - he is project fear.


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## Mudball (Sep 22, 2018)

R


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_Aston Martin Chief Executive Officer Andy Palmer said that Brexit is â€œa disaster for the industry on both sides of the Channel if there is no negotiated exit.â€ _

Now where is that master of risk and issues management - Chris Grayling - when you need him as we need him to tell this car boss that he is wrong...that he - Chris Grayling - knows more about cars than trains and so should be listened to as he is being listened to on trains and that Palmer is mistaken - he is project fear.
		
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Remainers have voted to have Grayling as the Minister for Brexit.. it will all be sorted out in record time ..


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## Foxholer (Sep 22, 2018)

drive4show said:



			...
Europe can shove it's red wine where the sun doesn't shine, New World is the future 

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Well, as a consumer, that's your choice - and there are plenty of poor (as in bad/awful) wines from Europe being sold in UK. But it's not tarrffs that are 'protecting' wine from non-EU imports! EU Tariff on NZ wine is a quite reasonable 6.5 to 8p per bottle. It's the UK government that's costing consumers the most - at between Â£2.16 and Â£2.77 per bottle, EU sourced or not!

Btw. I'd agree with your sentiment if 'most of' was added after '... shove'! Still some great (and even great value) wine from Europe!


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## Foxholer (Sep 22, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I suspect we're seeing the same issues but want different solutions.
With regards to immigration, we can close as many borders as we want. If we don't invest in policing them then who's going to stop people coming in? And if we do stop them, who's going to grow the population and in turn grow the economy?

I've said my bit on EU law.

*The will of the government is the real issue here. By detaching ourselves from Europe, we've actually given more power to the people most at fault for our current predicament. Career, trough snouting politicos are rubbing their hands together.
*
FWIW, the biggest effect on me and my family has been the downward pressure on wages. All my bills have stayed fairly static. Who's at fault for that? Austerity wasn't an EU position. It's purely a domestic one, caused by a global crash. Some would have us believe that it's caused by cheap labour from Europe. Bit of a strange one as all the Europeans that have ever worked for me have been on exactly the same wage as the locals.
		
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Some good points.

However, the argument that seemed quite compelling for many was that 'the power' for UK folk to remove 'poor performers' (however individuals defined that term) was being removed. And a bunch of 'faceless, unelected -and so unremovable -bureaucrats' making the decisions on how to use the funds provided by UK taxpayers!.

If MPs are 'trough snouting politicos.. rubbing their hands together', how would you describe the EU bureaucracy?


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## Paperboy (Sep 22, 2018)

http://www.itv.com/news/2018-09-20/...resa-may-a-cake-captioned-with-a-sly-putdown/

If this had been Boris everyone would be saying how un professional he is!


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## drdel (Sep 22, 2018)

Unlike Tusk, Juncker and Barnier , Boris has to face an electorate: they have their jobs irrespective of public perception.


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## Foxholer (Sep 22, 2018)

drdel said:



			Unlike Tusk, Juncker and Barnier , Boris has to face an electorate: they have their jobs irrespective of public perception.
		
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Er...While Barnier *was appointed* to his current position, he *was elected as an MEP*. I'm not sure what his status would be if he was ever 'unelected'!

Tusk and Juncker *were both elected *to their curent positions - such elections take place every 2.5 years, a rather shorter period than is usual for UK MPs.

With a majority of over 15k, I believe Boris would need to do something pretty outlandish (even for him!) to be replaced, either by the Conservative Party or at an election!

So the concept of EU folk not having to face/be responsible/accountable to an electorate, while MPs do, is something of an illusion!


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## MegaSteve (Sep 22, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			With a majority of over 15k, I believe Boris would need to do something pretty outlandish (even for him!) to be replaced, either by the Conservative Party or at an election!
		
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Think you'll find BoJo's majority has diminished to about 5k...
Still sufficient though, for him [I suspect] to keep his seat...

And, I don't recollect ever seeing the names of Barnier, Tusk or Juncker on a ballot paper here in the UK...
Suspect they'd get short shrift if they did...


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## Foxholer (Sep 22, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Think you'll find BoJo's majority has diminished to about 5k...
Still sufficient though, for him [I suspect] to keep his seat...
...
		
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Ah! Good point! Somehow missed the 2017 result!



MegaSteve said:



			...
And, I don't recollect ever seeing the names of Barnier, Tusk or Juncker on a ballot paper here in the UK...
*Suspect they'd get short shrift if they did*...
		
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As would Farage in most EU countries! Not all that different to the way extremely capable candidates of the 'wrong' party in safe seats (like Boris's) in UK electorates! but that's the version of 'democracy' that UK has! More voters didn't want the Conservatives to rule than did in 2015 - and more-so in 2017 - yet they still won the election! Is that truly 'democratic'? 

Tusk and Juncker were still elected - by the agreed process, Tusk's 'electorate' included UK's representative (presumably David Cameron on the European Council, as it's Theresa May currently), Juncker was elected by the EU Parliament (again the 'agreed by Treaty' process). This body, of course, included/includes UK representatives who have been 'democratically' elected.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 22, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			...by the agreed process,
		
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Perhaps its the 'agreed process' that's at fault... Poland itself wasn't too happy with Tusk's promotion...
Anyhow, soon shouldn't be a concern for the UK...


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## Foxholer (Sep 22, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Perhaps its the 'agreed process' that's at fault... Poland itself wasn't too happy with Tusk's promotion...
Anyhow, soon shouldn't be a concern for the UK...
		
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Well 'Poland itself' liked him sufficiently to make re-elect him as Prime Minister - which hasn't happened in post-communism times!

Perhaps (more likely imo) it's simply 'Some Polish politicians' that weren't too happy - some personal issues perhaps!


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## Fade and Die (Sep 22, 2018)




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## SocketRocket (Sep 22, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I suspect we're seeing the same issues but want different solutions.
With regards to immigration, we can close as many borders as we want. If we don't invest in policing them then who's going to stop people coming in? And if we do stop them, who's going to grow the population and in turn grow the economy .
		
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Do you mean the way India, China and just about all the other countries do that have poor and starving populations, Create bigger populations that share the same size cake. Increased populations stress and strain living standards unless they are associated with parallel increases in manufacturing and food suplies.


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## bluewolf (Sep 23, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you mean the way India, China and just about all the other countries do that have poor and starving populations, Create bigger populations that share the same size cake. Increased populations stress and strain living standards unless they are associated with parallel increases in manufacturing and food suplies.
		
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So we're in agreement then? The current economic model is a race to failure. Unfettered Capitalism has a best before date. Cool ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘

Oh, and the countries that you mention control the economic model by constructing an ever increasing social underclass with no access to State funding. I'm not sure we should be looking to them for any sort of lessons.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Well 'Poland itself' liked him sufficiently to make re-elect him as Prime Minister - which hasn't happened in post-communism times!

Perhaps (more likely imo) it's simply 'Some Polish politicians' that weren't too happy - some personal issues perhaps!
		
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Or, it could be Polish folk feel he's not returning the 'faith/belief' they showed in him with his re-election...
Certainly the couple of Poles I worked alongside could, at times, be quite critical of his stance re B****t...


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## Foxholer (Sep 23, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			...
Certainly the couple of Poles I worked alongside could, at times, be quite critical of his stance re B****t...
		
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Well if they worked with you in UK, then they quite possibly had a distinct 'vested interest' about his decisions. 
The Pole I work with, who is also eligible for a UK Passport, seems to have a fairly balanced view of Tusk's approach - that Tusk is, after all, now working for the interest of the EU, not simply Poland, which was the case when he was Polish PM, so some of his decisions may not be optimised for Poland.


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## Old Skier (Sep 23, 2018)

Something for the anti everything and everyone to contemplate


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## Tashyboy (Sep 23, 2018)

So Jeremy Corbyn has said the following. 
He said he would be "bound" by the outcome of a vote at the Labour Party conference - although he would prefer to have a general election.
So let's get this right. He would push for us to remain in the EU if the Labour membership voted for it. Totally disregarding the vote what the whole of the UK voted for. 
Hows that right.


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## Old Skier (Sep 23, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			So Jeremy Corbyn has said the following.
He said he would be "bound" by the outcome of a vote at the Labour Party conference - although he would prefer to have a general election.
So let's get this right. He would push for us to remain in the EU if the Labour membership voted for it. Totally disregarding the vote what the whole of the UK voted for.
Hows that right.
		
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Changes with the wind. Vote chaser and desperate. If he could reduce the voting age to 12 he would.


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## User62651 (Sep 23, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			So Jeremy Corbyn has said the following.
He said he would be "bound" by the outcome of a vote at the Labour Party conference - although he would prefer to have a general election.
So let's get this right. He would push for us to remain in the EU if the Labour membership voted for it. Totally disregarding the vote what the whole of the UK voted for.
Hows that right.
		
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Well if he doesn't listen to his party membership he's effectively a dictator. A leader should always listen to/consider the views of his party. Views change, people change their minds if they see the error of a former decision/viewpoint. Everyone changes their mind on things.
Whole point of being in oppostion is to try and become government so acting surprised that Labour would like to take advantage of a useless PM and divided govt is hardly surprising. If shoe was on the other foot Tories would be doing exactly the same.
If a general election were called soon, and it could be if May cannot get Chequers both through Commons and agreed in principle with EU, it'd be very hard to call who'd win it, think people are sick of this Govt. 
Since the 2017 election I really dont think May has moved the case for herself being PM or her party ruling forward, gone t'other way and it was fairly close last time. 
This is a golf forum full of retired and middle-aged male golfers with comfortable lifestyles and money in the bank so the political view will be skewed to the right (Tory) on numbers, nothing wrong with that but country wide an awful lot of the UK does not share that same quality of life and will readily vote Labour, you wouldn't see that here of course, bit like the village Conservative club at times.


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## Old Skier (Sep 23, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Well if he doesn't listen to his party membership he's effectively a dictator.
		
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So all his speeches were he stated that we "Must follow the democratic wishes of the majority " on Brexit was a lie then.

He's happy for a few to dictate to the wishes of the many. This is one kind of dictatorship that you would or wouldn't be happy with.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 23, 2018)

If he dont listen to a majority vote he wont get in power. The worst pm and government in living memory is only matched by the worst Labour party in living memory. This forum is full of retired and middle class people. But they have all woked to get where they have in life. And they can spot a BS er. And Corbyn is 5 star in that respect.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 23, 2018)

For democracy to work properly there has to be a credible, electable opposition as an alternative to the incumbent government. At the moment we have a government that doesn't appear to know it's arse from it's elbow and an opposition that, imo, isn't even fit for opposition never mind running the country.
Somehow Corbyn, despite single handedly keeping Labour from a 20 point lead in the polls, looks untouchable.


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## Hobbit (Sep 23, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Well if he doesn't listen to his party membership he's effectively a dictator. A leader should always listen to/consider the views of his party. Views change, people change their minds if they see the error of a former decision/viewpoint. Everyone changes their mind on things.
Whole point of being in oppostion is to try and become government so acting surprised that Labour would like to take advantage of a useless PM and divided govt is hardly surprising. If shoe was on the other foot Tories would be doing exactly the same.
If a general election were called soon, and it could be if May cannot get Chequers both through Commons and agreed in principle with EU, it'd be very hard to call who'd win it, think people are sick of this Govt.
Since the 2017 election I really dont think May has moved the case for herself being PM or her party ruling forward, gone t'other way and it was fairly close last time.
This is a golf forum full of retired and middle-aged male golfers with comfortable lifestyles and money in the bank so the political view will be skewed to the right (Tory) on numbers, nothing wrong with that but country wide an awful lot of the UK does not share that same quality of life and will readily vote Labour, you wouldn't see that here of course, bit like the village Conservative club at times.

Click to expand...

The Brexit vote wasnâ€™t a political vote. It was the biggest single issue the U.K. has ever voted on. And a look at the demographic of who voted for it you will see that over 20% of the Leave voters were Labour voters.

The LibDems campaigned on (almost) a single issue at the last GE, staying in Europe. Whilst they were penalised for being part of the coalition govt, they also lost a mountain of votes/ over 20 of LibDems had also voted Leave.

Corbyn is right, and cunningly so. Letâ€™s have a GE then see what Labour will do about Brexit. To do otherwise risks over 20% of Labour voters being pretty Pâ€™d off.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 23, 2018)

Still looking like its mainly older folk campaigning for another say...
So, guessing the younger ones. remain as can't be asked...


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## User62651 (Sep 23, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Still looking like its mainly older folk campaigning for another say...
So, guessing the younger ones. remain as can't be *asked*...
		
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Asked? Arsed surely? 
Not sure why you'd say that, yes they didn't turn out for EU ref vote in 2016 in numbers but maybe they learned a lesson as a year later they did mobilise for the General Election and helped give Theresa May a bit of shoe-ing, she hung on but only just, took Labour to 40% vote share, better than expected, remember talk on here of a tory majority of 60-80 MPs. 
Next general election should see a big turnout of the younger voters, whether we're in/out of EU or still somewhere in between.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 23, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Asked? Arsed surely?
		
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I have a keep it clean spellchecker â€¦




			Not sure why you'd say that, yes they didn't turn out for EU ref vote in 2016 in numbers but maybe they learned a lesson as a year later they did mobilise for the General Election and helped give Theresa May a bit of shoe-ing, she hung on but only just, took Labour to 40% vote share, better than expected, remember talk on here of a tory majority of 60-80 MPs.
Next general election should see a big turnout of the younger voters, whether we're in/out of EU or still somewhere in between.
		
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Basing my opinion on TV news coverage showing [generally] older folk marching/demonstrating...
Which may be different to what you are seeing in your region...


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 23, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Well if he doesn't listen to his party membership he's effectively a dictator. A leader should always listen to/consider the views of his party. Views change, people change their minds if they see the error of a former decision/viewpoint. Everyone changes their mind on things.
Whole point of being in oppostion is to try and become government so acting surprised that Labour would like to take advantage of a useless PM and divided govt is hardly surprising. If shoe was on the other foot Tories would be doing exactly the same.
If a general election were called soon, and it could be if May cannot get Chequers both through Commons and agreed in principle with EU, it'd be very hard to call who'd win it, *think people are sick of this Govt.*
Since the 2017 election I really dont think May has moved the case for herself being PM or her party ruling forward, gone t'other way and it was fairly close last time.
This is a golf forum full of retired and middle-aged male golfers with comfortable lifestyles and money in the bank so the political view will be skewed to the right (Tory) on numbers, nothing wrong with that but country wide an awful lot of the UK does not share that same quality of life and will readily vote Labour, you wouldn't see that here of course, bit like the village Conservative club at times.

Click to expand...

Think people are sick of politicians generally, whether they are in government or not.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 23, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			So we're in agreement then? The current economic model is a race to failure. Unfettered Capitalism has a best before date. Cool ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘

Oh, and the countries that you mention control the economic model by constructing an ever increasing social underclass with no access to State funding. I'm not sure we should be looking to them for any sort of lessons.
		
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agreement only if you agree unfettered population increase and mainly through immigration is the major threat to the living standards of our nation.


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## bluewolf (Sep 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			agreement only if you agree unfettered population increase and mainly through immigration is the major threat to the living standards of our nation.
		
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Hardly a stretch to agree with that. Uncontrolled immigration is a State killer. However, seeing as we already have the ability to control immigration then Brexit will do nothing to change that. What we don't have is funding and structure. That won't change after March.


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## drdel (Sep 24, 2018)

Corbyn (is this the guy that MI5 fears they can't trust with security info. and the same person who is under investigation by the Standards committee for undeclared expenses, whose festival for the young lost money and who is friends with suspect groups ?) might need to be careful what he wishes for, as despite the poor Tory performance, the Polls don't give Labour a lead.


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## woody69 (Sep 24, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			So all his speeches were he stated that we "Must follow the democratic wishes of the majority " on Brexit was a lie then.

He's happy for a few to dictate to the wishes of the many. This is one kind of dictatorship that you would or wouldn't be happy with.
		
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Why is it a lie? If another vote was to happen (and I don't think it will), surely giving the people another say now we are in a better position to understand the potential ramifications (both negative and positive) is the very definition of democracy. 

We get to vote every 5 years or so on a new Government. Why shouldn't there be another chance to vote on something as important as this?


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## drdel (Sep 24, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Why is it a lie? If *another vote *was to happen (and I don't think it will), surely giving the people another say now we are in a better position to understand the potential ramifications (both negative and positive) is the very definition of democracy.

We get to vote every 5 years or so on a new Government. Why shouldn't there be another chance to vote on something as important as this?
		
Click to expand...

And what would be your question, now we have exposed several options...

a. Norwegian 
b. Canadian
c. Canadian plus
d. Chequers
5. Leave for WTO
6. Request we rejoin.
7. Delay leaving 5yrs, 10 or 15?


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Why is it a lie? If another vote was to happen (and I don't think it will), surely giving the people another say now we are in a better position to understand the potential ramifications (both negative and positive) is the very definition of democracy.

We get to vote every 5 years or so on a new Government. Why shouldn't there be another chance to vote on something as important as this?[/QUOTE
now we are in a better position to understand the potential ramifications, 
With POTENTIAL being the key word. What exactly are they coz all i see is a bottomless pit of wasted money being poured into the EU. Or an uncertain future out of it.
		
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## Hobbit (Sep 24, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Why is it a lie? If another vote was to happen (and I don't think it will), surely giving the people another say now we are in a better position to understand the potential ramifications (both negative and positive) is the very definition of democracy.

We get to vote every 5 years or so on a new Government. Why shouldn't there be another chance to vote on something as important as this?
		
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Isn't the enactment of a vote the true definition of democracy. There was a vote, and the majority voted a particular way - which I disagree with by the way. When the result of that vote has been enacted, then we will have seen the full process of democracy. Want a vote on rejoining in x years, yes please.

As for Corbyn's democracy for the people. What utter rubbish! He's begging for votes, and the democracy is only for Labour Party members. He isn't respecting all those non-about Party members who won't get a say. Then there's the "let's have an election, and Labour will then negotiate Leave." Sorry Jeremy, but you tell me what the terms the Labour Party will be negotiating on and then I'll decide if I was to vote Labour.

If there was to be another 'people's vote' then there's 2 things I'd like to see on it. Stay or leave being one, and if its leave, leave within 2 years whatever the outcome of a negotiation. This continued uncertainty isn't doing businesses any good whatsoever.


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			So all his speeches were he stated that we "Must follow the democratic wishes of the majority " on Brexit was a lie then.
...
		
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Well, he'd have a dilemna if his 'grass roots' party members voted for another referendum! As that (Labour Party grass roots members) is the 'most democratic' group of all the parties, I believe he'd have to adjust/clarify, his above statement, possibly claiming, perhaps even legitimately, that 'the democratic wishes of the majority - of his party' had actually changed! 

I see that as a 'reasonable but fraught with danger' approach. For that same reason, I'd see any 'grass roots' vote on the subject being strongly resisted!



Old Skier said:



			He's happy for a few to dictate to the wishes of the many. This is one kind of dictatorship that you would or wouldn't be happy with.
		
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Well, being a 'Leader' is likely to involve making decisions that some don't agree with! No different to the way May has imposed the Chequers plan. If you are going to describe Corbyn as a dictator, then May is surely an even greater one! That's simply highlights the way our 'democracy' works!


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2018)

The differance i see foxy is that May is trying to push through a plan ( which isnt going to please everyone) on the basis the people voted out. Corbyn could try and push through a plan on the basis of the labour members wishes and not the wishes if the general public. Any chequers plan was going to be imposed. Time and barriers from the UK and the EU have forced that to happen.


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			The differance i see foxy is that May is trying to push through a plan ( which isnt going to please everyone) on the basis the people voted out. Corbyn could try and push through a plan on the basis of the labour members wishes and not the wishes if the general public. Any chequers plan was going to be imposed. Time and barriers from the UK and the EU have forced that to happen.
		
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So which do you see a 'more dictatorial'?

Btw. I'm not taking sides. Simply challenging the idea that Corbyn is being dictatorial while May is not!


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## Hobbit (Sep 24, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			The differance i see foxy is that May is trying to push through a plan ( which isnt going to please everyone) on the basis the people voted out. Corbyn could try and push through a plan on the basis of the labour members wishes and not the wishes if the general public. Any chequers plan was going to be imposed. Time and barriers from the UK and the EU have forced that to happen.
		
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If the plan goes to a 'people's vote,' as has been suggested, there'll be 16 million NO(Remain) voters who'll vote against it. Then there's the soft Leavers who'll vote against it. I don't think it will matter what plan is devised, if its put to the people it will not be passed. And when it isn't passed the result will be hijacked by Remain and turned into a stay in the EU result.

Strange how there doesn't seem to be many Leavers shouting for a people's vote. A people's vote is just a cynical ploy to thwart Brexit.


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## User62651 (Sep 24, 2018)

What Corbyn/Labour say is largely by the by because they're not in power. I am not a Labour supporter incidentally, have voted all ways in the past. If (huge if) there's a general election before next March then they may become important but for now no. Corbyn historically was not fussed for EU but he and Milliband before him didn't have Brexit as a Labour manifesto issue, it was purely a Tory concern because they were losing votes to UKIP. Need to focus on Govt re Brexit, they're the ones who called it.
Whole EU ref came about through the UK parliamentary process - Cameron had it in Tory manifesto, he won the 2015 election, enacted a referendum, didn't go his way, he left etc etc. With hindsight it should have been set out in far more detail but Cameron was likely bit cocky of it going his way, he didn't prepare, called it in times of deep austerity which was daft, gambled and lost. Anti establishment vote was suggested and given the 2017 election result that seemed to be true - Labour voters gave Cameron a kicking in 2016 in the EU ref and again gave May one a year later - effectively voted for Breixt then a year later voted against it as May called that GE specifically to push through Brexit her way. She only worsened her Brexit position. Has nothing at all to do with her being a remain voter in the past.
Point is Brexit cant be bulldozed through ad hoc and we leave and stomp our feet at EU just because Leavers are fed up with the time it's taking and perceived snubs foir May from EU member state leaders. It needs to continue to go through parliamentary process to completion/rejection whatever, however long that takes. Has always been thus in UK politics. Brexit has progressed through Commons and Lords to date, too slowly for some, but being scrutinised all the way, that's a good thing, and that's where it should stay imo, we dont need a peoples vote. We get to vote for MPs to represent us in the areas we live in and they should take the matter forward, that's their job, not ours. If May doesn't get her version of Brexit through Commons then so be it, that's the UK democratic process too, MPs will likely vote the way their constituents voted in ref so are representing them. An MP form the Shetlands has no responsibility to vote the same way as an MP from Devon because of an overall UK referendum result, they represent their own areas views.
Public are way too simplistic and knee-jerk about what needs to be done. 
A people's vote will just involve more extreme rhetoric, hatred, lies and division, not needed. Let the politicians do what they are supposed to do. Try and push Brexit through in the best way they can, if in time they haven't got the numbers or means to do that then so be it, but it has to stay with our parliamentary system. Giving PM executive decision making powers is wrong imo, if a PM want more power they need to do better in general elections and get a decent majority who believe in that PM, not the case now.  Next election public can vote out those they blame over Brexit if it fails and start over including a new motion to leave EU, that's where it'll end up. Will rumble on and on.
Anti Labour people very quick to try and blame Corbyn for everything, right wing rags are trying their hardest to bring him down too, I think he has kept his cool and fended them off in a dignified way, actually a good number of their own Tory MPs are stalling a hard Brexit and in their minds for good reason. 
No thanks to 2nd people's vote....will do no-one any good.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 24, 2018)

Seeing as the vast majority of the 'political classes' were/are in favour of remaining...
It'll be an absolute major surprise if any kind of exit actually comes to be...
And, really has been the case since day one...


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## bobmac (Sep 24, 2018)

Just say if the roles were reversed and the referendum result was a narrow majority to remain in Europe, what do you think the remainers would say to the leavers if they wanted another vote.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 24, 2018)

But we already had a â€œPeopleâ€™s Voteâ€ in 2016!

Out of the 382 areas voting, 263 voted to leave and only 119 voted to remain

Can any of the Remainer contributors to this thread explain how you can try to overturn the result and say you believe in democracy?


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			...A people's vote is just a cynical ploy to thwart Brexit.
		
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Totally agree!


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## bluewolf (Sep 24, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Just say if the roles were reversed and the referendum result was a narrow majority to remain in Europe, what do you think the remainers would say to the leavers if they wanted another vote.
		
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I'd say "knock yourself out", but it's not me you'd need to persuade is it?

It's not like some have ever stopped moaning about being in the EU is it? Some Leavers whinge incessantly. Some Remainers whinge incessantly. Some people just like whinging. As evidenced by the non stop bleating on this very thread!!! ðŸ˜‡


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## drdel (Sep 24, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			So which do you see a 'more dictatorial'?

Btw. I'm not taking sides. Simply challenging the idea that Corbyn is being dictatorial while May is not!
		
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Surely it is possible to say any 'executive' decision by a prime minister is dictatorial.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			But we already had a â€œPeopleâ€™s Voteâ€ in 2016!

Out of the 382 areas voting, 263 voted to leave and only 119 voted to remain

Can any of the Remainer contributors to this thread explain how you can try to overturn the result and say you believe in democracy?

Never seen that before and i suppose a remainer would not like to be reminder of that. Well posted. 
View attachment 25566

Click to expand...


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			What Corbyn/Labour say is largely by the by because they're not in power. I am not a Labour supporter incidentally, have voted all ways in the past. If (huge if) there's a general election before next March then they may become important but for now no. Corbyn historically was not fussed for EU but he and Milliband before him didn't have Brexit as a Labour manifesto issue, it was purely a Tory concern because they were losing votes to UKIP. Need to focus on Govt re Brexit, they're the ones who called it.
Whole EU ref came about through the UK parliamentary process - Cameron had it in Tory manifesto, he won the 2015 election, enacted a referendum, didn't go his way, he left etc etc. With hindsight it should have been set out in far more detail but Cameron was likely bit cocky of it going his way, he didn't prepare, called it in times of deep austerity which was daft, gambled and lost. Anti establishment vote was suggested and given the 2017 election result that seemed to be true - Labour voters gave Cameron a kicking in 2016 in the EU ref and again gave May one a year later - effectively voted for Breixt then a year later voted against it as May called that GE specifically to push through Brexit her way. She only worsened her Brexit position. Has nothing at all to do with her being a remain voter in the past.
Point is Brexit cant be bulldozed through ad hoc and we leave and stomp our feet at EU just because Leavers are fed up with the time it's taking and perceived snubs foir May from EU member state leaders. It needs to continue to go through parliamentary process to completion/rejection whatever, however long that takes. Has always been thus in UK politics. Brexit has progressed through Commons and Lords to date, too slowly for some, but being scrutinised all the way, that's a good thing, and that's where it should stay imo, we dont need a peoples vote. We get to vote for MPs to represent us in the areas we live in and they should take the matter forward, that's their job, not ours. If May doesn't get her version of Brexit through Commons then so be it, that's the UK democratic process too, MPs will likely vote the way their constituents voted in ref so are representing them. An MP form the Shetlands has no responsibility to vote the same way as an MP from Devon because of an overall UK referendum result, they represent their own areas views.
Public are way too simplistic and knee-jerk about what needs to be done.
A people's vote will just involve more extreme rhetoric, hatred, lies and division, not needed. Let the politicians do what they are supposed to do. Try and push Brexit through in the best way they can, if in time they haven't got the numbers or means to do that then so be it, but it has to stay with our parliamentary system. Giving PM executive decision making powers is wrong imo, if a PM want more power they need to do better in general elections and get a decent majority who believe in that PM, not the case now.  Next election public can vote out those they blame over Brexit if it fails and start over including a new motion to leave EU, that's where it'll end up. Will rumble on and on.
Anti Labour people very quick to try and blame Corbyn for everything, right wing rags are trying their hardest to bring him down too, I think he has kept his cool and fended them off in a dignified way, actually a good number of their own Tory MPs are stalling a hard Brexit and in their minds for good reason.
No thanks to 2nd people's vote....will do no-one any good.
		
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Good post maxy.


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## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2018)

drdel said:



			Surely it is possible to say any 'executive' decision by a prime minister is dictatorial.
		
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Precisely!

There's no difference in the way they act, yet it's only Corbyn who is accused of being 'dictatorial'!


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## Tashyboy (Sep 25, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Precisely!

There's no difference in the way they act, yet it's only Corbyn who is accused of being 'dictatorial'!
		
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On a positive note for those that think he is incompetent. Sky have done a survey asking  how he would cope in Brexit negotiations. 71% said he would be er incompetent. An incompetent dictator. I couldnt of worded it better.


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## Mudball (Sep 25, 2018)

You can sense public mood when Business start putting things on their mast.. as seen by the softie southerners on their way to EU controlled city which pays more than 60% of all tax in the UK


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## MegaSteve (Sep 25, 2018)

Mudball said:



			You can sense public mood when Business start putting things on their mast.. as seen by the softie southerners on their way to EU controlled city which pays more than 60% of all tax in the UK
		
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This from the prick #1 who is totally in favour of the EU aside from following its employment laws...
Really encouraging that... NOT!

Should stick with his Rod Stewart lookalike gigs...


View attachment 25576


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## Mudball (Sep 25, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			This from the prick #1 who is totally in favour of the EU aside from following its employment laws...
Really encouraging that... NOT!

Should stick with his Rod Stewart lookalike gigs...


View attachment 25576

Click to expand...

Did Weatherspoons not put pro-Brexit on their coasters or something?


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## MegaSteve (Sep 25, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Did Weatherspoons not put pro-Brexit on their coasters or something?
		
Click to expand...


Think they did at the time of the referendum...

But, my point is, Charlie Boy is fully in favour of the EU aside from according his employees the protections/benefits afforded to them by Brussels...
Which, for me, makes him totally two faced and #1 PRICK!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2018)

Corbyn. A man who has lived his life standing up for his principals who now would jump down on any side of the fence to get a vote.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 25, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Corbyn. A man who has lived his life standing up for his principals who now would jump down on any side of the fence to get a vote.
		
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Let me tell you a little story ave just read on a site I follow on face book. The site is dedicated to trying to cut the billions both Labour and the Torys have taken from our pension scheme. This post was written by the old guy who set up the site. 
Quote. 
If labour goes back on the democratic will of the people as was shown in a referendum, to leave the EU the single market & the customs union, I will give up on them forever especially after how MacDonald treated me after my meeting with JC  of which I heard every single word he said about this association & myself when Jeremy's personal assistant left her phone on while speaking to him concerning our association, they sacked her because of that error on her part. Which says they could go back on any promise made to the miners. End quote. 

This Labour lot are first class scum. They are not here for the working class. They do not listen to the people. The only people they listen to are the labour members. This is the sadest part. The working class have supported this shower of crap for decades and have now been abandoned. And yet still people think the sun shines out from dark places. Do not get me wrong. I cannot stand the Tories. But i like others can see quite clearly through the crap that Labour peddle.


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## Hobbit (Sep 25, 2018)

Mudball said:



			You can sense public mood when Business start putting things on their mast.. as seen by the softie southerners on their way to EU controlled city which pays more than 60% of all tax in the UK
		
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Oh dear, the rest of the UK has to doff its cap to London because it pays 60% of the UK's tax. Another skewed post further up the thread showed that geographically most of the UK voted Leave. People from both sides appear to be shouting all sorts of rubbish to support their tenuous arguments.


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## User62651 (Sep 25, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Corbyn. A man who has lived his life standing up for his principals who now would jump down on any side of the fence to get a vote.
		
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Well May does more u-turns than a London cabbie, Corbyn's hardly alone in the vote-seeking politician role.


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## Mudball (Sep 25, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Oh dear, the rest of the UK has to doff its cap to London because it pays 60% of the UK's tax. Another skewed post further up the thread showed that geographically most of the UK voted Leave. People from both sides appear to be shouting all sorts of rubbish to support their tenuous arguments.
		
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while the satire seems to have fallen flat, there was no demand for doffing of the cap.  The tax receipts help all across the nation, so gratitude is more than sufficient as austerity would be even more painful without it.


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## User62651 (Sep 25, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Let me tell you a little story ave just read on a site I follow on face book. The site is dedicated to trying to cut the billions both Labour and the Torys have taken from our pension scheme. This post was written by the old guy who set up the site.
Quote.
If labour goes back on the democratic will of the people as was shown in a referendum, to leave the EU the single market & the customs union, I will give up on them forever especially after how MacDonald treated me after my meeting with JC  of which I heard every single word he said about this association & myself when Jeremy's personal assistant left her phone on while speaking to him concerning our association, they sacked her because of that error on her part. Which says they could go back on any promise made to the miners. End quote.

This Labour lot are first class scum. They are not here for the working class. They do not listen to the people. The only people they listen to are the labour members. This is the sadest part. The working class have supported this shower of crap for decades and have now been abandoned. And yet still people think the sun shines out from dark places. *Do not get me wrong. I cannot stand the Tories. But i like others can see quite clearly through the crap that Labour peddle*.
		
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Therein lies the problem, poor leadership on all sides. 
You had me recalling a speech by Uncle Monty (Richard Griffiths RIP) in movie Withnail and I with that quote-


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## Mudball (Sep 25, 2018)

Oh dear.. Labour now open to support a new vote and not ruling out Remain... did I hear Starmer correctly?? Whatever happened to the theory that middle England that is part of the Red belt voted Leave??  So is Labour out of touch with its voter base or have the labour voters changes their mind or just wanting a different view from Tories?


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## IanM (Sep 25, 2018)

Reminding my learned colleagues about my boring repetition of â€œno vote against the EU ever succeeding..... â€œ

Wind people up and get it cancelled. Donâ€™t expect the enemies of free democratic states to respect any vote against them,

 Feel free to take the mick next Spring if I am proved wrong, but I wonâ€™t be.


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## Old Skier (Sep 25, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Oh dear.. Labour now open to support a new vote and not ruling out Remain... did I hear Starmer correctly?? Whatever happened to the theory that middle England that is part of the Red belt voted Leave??  So is Labour out of touch with its voter base or have the labour voters changes their mind or just wanting a different view from Tories?
		
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Have you worked it out yet.

Starmer- Labour will vote against any proposal
Corbyn- We will have to see what is laid on the table
Conference vote - all options are open

Anyone clever enough to work out what Labour views actually are?

Does Corbyn actually realize that the majority of their voters are not party members.


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## Mudball (Sep 25, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Have you worked it out yet.

Starmer- Labour will vote against any proposal
Corbyn- We will have to see what is laid on the table
Conference vote - all options are open

Anyone clever enough to work out what Labour views actually are?

Does Corbyn actually realize that the majority of their voters are not party members.
		
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It is simple..  its called 'sit on the fence' and watch the govt tie themselves in a loop.  In many ways, no different from Boris - dont have a solution but ever ready to cast the first stone.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 25, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Have you worked it out yet.

Anyone clever enough to work out what Labour views actually are?
		
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And, have you worked out the tory boys 'n girls views?  Honestly??

BoJo aside I'd say the majority, in these parts, would be happy with a second vote and go with remain...


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## drdel (Sep 28, 2018)

Corbyn has, if we believe him, told Barnier his 6 conditions. I don't see how Barnier could accept these which I guess is how Labour wants to force an election.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2018)

Disappointed to hear my MP - Jeremy Hunt Foreign Secretary - spout such utter rubbish in his speech to the conservative party conference - comparing the EU to Soviet Russia in it's Salzburg stance on the UK's proposals for the re-engagement deal.  From my exchanges with Hunt it is evident to me that this is simply leadership challenge posturing that he does not actually believe, posturing directed at those who still believe that there is a good re-engagement deal to be had - and if there isn't one then it will be the EU's fault and the EU will suffer as much if not more than the UK - because that is the message that the Leave fraudsters and charlatans are now pushing.

No longer it seems are they saying that there is a good relationship to be had in the brave new Brexit world - but if we are worse off for up to 50yrs (see Jacob R-M) then that is fine as we are well shot of the nasty and intransigent EU - when in fact we knew _exactly _that we would end up where we are today if we laid down the red lines that May subsequently laid down.  And so here we are - in a complete and utter mess with the government riven from top to bottom and side to side over what to do.

But there is nothing surprising here if you cared to look.  And the Telegraph, Sun, mail etc have to rant, because they have nowhere else to go if they are not to have to admit that they were wrong.  And likewise Johnson, Farage, Rees-Mogg, Cash, Bone, Fox, Davis, Leadsome, Duncan-Smith, Grayling and the rest of that bunch have to rant - as they see all their vacuous promises and complaints about the EU they have made to the electorate over the years and leading up to the referendum exposed as the utter nonsense and lies that they have always been.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 1, 2018)

A couple of questions for you SILH.........

Why should the UK have to accept freedom of movement and the jurisdiction of the EU court to get a decent trade deal?

Did Canada and Japan have to accept free movement of people to get their trade deals?

Of course there is a good deal to be had, the question is how far the EU is prepared to go to punish the UK for daring to leave. I travel and work throughout Europe and from recent trips to Germany it seems as though major companies out there are getting more and more exasperated with the stance that Barnier is taking. They are demanding (not asking or suggesting) that a trade deal is done as they don't want their products to become prohibitively expensive if there is no deal. Add 20% to the cost of German cars for example and all of a sudden their competitors products start looking a lot more attractive.

As an aside, I noticed that when the EU were making encouraging noises about the government's Chequers plan you went missing from this thread for several days. Now it's not looking quite so good you return to post your usual negative and one sided drivel.


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## drdel (Oct 1, 2018)

I think the core issue is not about the current positions of the UK or the EU but more about what direction we and the EU wish/should to travel.

The EU has become dominated by Germany and France who side with Juncker's vision. As Cameron found, like most UK PMs before him, the UK has never succeeded in getting the EU to be a cohesive group of trading partners.  Political centralisation will not help the EU as their members are too different sociologically and economically. This federal tenet upon which the EU progresses and the constraints of the ECB has and will hog tie the individual monetary policies of nations.  If the UK remained I'd predict the autonomy of the BoE would become questioned as would our ability to form our own monetary policy for sterling outside the Euro.

The future of the UK tied to this political experiment would IMO be a disaster for the standard of living for UK citizens. The short-term of our political voting system's 4 year cycle is a distinct disadvantage to the long term planning we need at this time.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 1, 2018)

drdel said:



			I think the core issue is not about the current positions of the UK or the EU but more about what direction we and the EU wish/should to travel.

The EU has become dominated by Germany and France who side with Juncker's vision. As Cameron found, like most UK PMs before him, the UK has never succeeded in getting the EU to be a cohesive group of trading partners.  Political centralisation will not help the EU as their members are too different sociologically and economically. This federal tenet upon which the EU progresses and the constraints of the ECB has and will hog tie the individual monetary policies of nations.  If the UK remained I'd predict the autonomy of the BoE would become questioned as would our ability to form our own monetary policy for sterling outside the Euro.

The future of the UK tied to this political experiment would IMO be a disaster for the standard of living for UK citizens. The short-term of our political voting system's 4 year cycle is a distinct disadvantage to the long term planning we need at this time.
		
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This post nails the reality of why we need to extract ourselves from the EU.  Another big issue with many leavers is the open imigration policy. This never used to be a problem when member states had similar ecconomies. When many countries with basket case ecconomies were aÄºlowed to join it created a massive pull factor to people who could earn wages many times bigger than in their own countries and after a short time help with housing, health treatment and state benefits far superior.  We then had the situation of the EU telling us we should change our laws in cases like giving votes to people in prison etc. 
Some of these issues are very attractive to some of the newer member states but we can already see how even they are starting to object where EU policy is not going in their best interests. Just look how they are reacting to migration from Africa.  With the prospect of other poor countries joining in the future and existing countries becoming net contributors it will only be a matter of time before the dominoes start falling.


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## Foxholer (Oct 1, 2018)

drdel said:



			I think the core issue is not about the current positions of the UK or the EU but more about what direction we and the EU wish/should to travel.

The EU has become dominated by Germany and France who side with Juncker's vision. As Cameron found, like most UK PMs before him, the UK has never succeeded in getting the EU to be a cohesive group of trading partners.  Political centralisation will not help the EU as their members are too different sociologically and economically. This federal tenet upon which the EU progresses and the constraints of the ECB has and will hog tie the individual monetary policies of nations.  If the UK remained I'd predict the autonomy of the BoE would become questioned as would our ability to form our own monetary policy for sterling outside the Euro.

The future of the UK tied to this political experiment would IMO be a disaster for the standard of living for UK citizens. *The short-term of our political voting system's 4 year cycle is a distinct disadvantage to the long term planning we need at this time.*

Click to expand...

Some well reasoned points - and I agree with quite a bit of it, though disagree with quite a bit of it too!

However, it's all rather knocked by the error in the last paragraph that also rather destroys the point being put forward....UK Parliamentary election cycle is 5 years, not 4!


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Disappointed to hear my MP - Jeremy Hunt Foreign Secretary - spout such utter rubbish in his speech to the conservative party conference - comparing the EU to Soviet Russia in it's Salzburg stance on the UK's proposals for the re-engagement deal.  From my exchanges with Hunt it is evident to me that this is simply leadership challenge posturing that he does not actually believe, posturing directed at those who still believe that there is a good re-engagement deal to be had - and if there isn't one then it will be the EU's fault and the EU will suffer as much if not more than the UK - because that is the message that the Leave fraudsters and charlatans are now pushing.

No longer it seems are they saying that there is a good relationship to be had in the brave new Brexit world - but if we are worse off for up to 50yrs (see Jacob R-M) then that is fine as we are well shot of the nasty and intransigent EU - when in fact we knew _exactly _that we would end up where we are today if we laid down the red lines that May subsequently laid down.  And so here we are - in a complete and utter mess with the government riven from top to bottom and side to side over what to do.

But there is nothing surprising here if you cared to look.  And the Telegraph, Sun, mail etc have to rant, because they have nowhere else to go if they are not to have to admit that they were wrong.  And likewise Johnson, Farage, Rees-Mogg, Cash, Bone, Fox, Davis, Leadsome, Duncan-Smith, Grayling and the rest of that bunch have to rant - as they see all their vacuous promises and complaints about the EU they have made to the electorate over the years and leading up to the referendum exposed as the utter nonsense and lies that they have always been.
		
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Jeremy Hunt is very late to the party in comparing the EU to a type of Soviet Republic, and that comparison didn't come from the Tory party. I've looked for the article I read a few years back, written by a prominent political lecturer from Cambridge. The essence of the article was two fold, the centralisation of government with member states losing more and more power and Russia's fear of a large economic and military presence right on its borders. He wrote that although the EU may not appear to have a Stalin-esque style leader it does mirror the Soviet Republics both in the its centralisation and the fact that one or two states actually rule the other 26 by virtue of their voting bloc and economic power within the EU. 

Russia, basically, turned back to the nasty style when it invaded the Crimea and supported the unrest in the Ukraine. Why did it do that? Ukraine signed a gas supply deal with the EU, which impacted quite heavily on Russia's own supply deal with the EU. From being a favoured market of the EU, Russia has faced many sanctions that have impacted heavily.

Add to the fact Russia(Putin) fears an EU army, that will have greater seamless coordination than NATO, especially as Trump appears to be looking at pulling back from NATO, you get a good feel for Russia's historical fears from its western borders.

The article concluded that whilst the EU has many positives in terms of trade, its political aspirations are not good both internally and externally for its members. In effect, as many many people have said, as a trading bloc it has a huge amount to offer, but as a political exercise it is very, very dangerous.

A good read up of Russia's fears of the EU, especially an EU army, would open your eyes way beyond what Hunt has said.


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## Dando (Oct 2, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Jeremy Hunt is very late to the party in comparing the EU to a type of Soviet Republic, and that comparison didn't come from the Tory party. I've looked for the article I read a few years back, written by a prominent political lecturer from Cambridge. The essence of the article was two fold, the centralisation of government with member states losing more and more power and Russia's fear of a large economic and military presence right on its borders. He wrote that although the EU may not appear to have a Stalin-esque style leader it does mirror the Soviet Republics both in the its centralisation and the fact that one or two states actually rule the other 26 by virtue of their voting bloc and economic power within the EU.

Russia, basically, turned back to the nasty style when it invaded the Crimea and supported the unrest in the Ukraine. Why did it do that? Ukraine signed a gas supply deal with the EU, which impacted quite heavily on Russia's own supply deal with the EU. From being a favoured market of the EU, Russia has faced many sanctions that have impacted heavily.

Add to the fact Russia(Putin) fears an EU army, that will have greater seamless coordination than NATO, especially as Trump appears to be looking at pulling back from NATO, you get a good feel for Russia's historical fears from its western borders.

The article concluded that whilst the EU has many positives in terms of trade, its political aspirations are not good both internally and externally for its members. In effect, as many many people have said, as a trading bloc it has a huge amount to offer, but as a political exercise it is very, very dangerous.

A good read up of Russia's fears of the EU, especially an EU army, would open your eyes way beyond what Hunt has said.
		
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You do realise that your expert wonâ€™t be expert enough for SILH to believe a word he says!


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## drdel (Oct 2, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Some well reasoned points - and I agree with quite a bit of it, though disagree with quite a bit of it too!

However, it's all rather knocked by the error in the last *paragraph that also rather destroys the point being put forward....UK Parliamentary election cycle is 5 years, not 4!*

Click to expand...

You're right, my mistake. I might suggest the 5th year is mostly wasted by electioneering and I'm not sure the numerical error undermines the argument.


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## Mudball (Oct 2, 2018)

Could not help sharing this.. when you spew nonsense about something without knowing who to blame .. (take it as face value)  (audio needed)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1047044139077029889


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Could not help sharing this.. when you spew nonsense about something without knowing who to blame .. (take it as face value)  (audio needed)
		
Click to expand...

:rofl: :rofl:

Love the highly appropriate text on the wall/post on right at vid end! Personalities work brilliantly too, so much so that I'd consider that it's quite possibly staged!

Good to see the some of the 'fear-oriented' b-s being countered somewhat aggressively though - albeit too late to be effective! Too much of the entire campaign was (understandably) fought using emotion rather than facts. And when 'facts' were used, they were far too often mis-used/mis-represented - by both sides. The 350million/week by Leave and Treasury estimates by Remain (which back-fired badly imo) were examples.


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## woody69 (Oct 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			A couple of questions for you SILH.........

Why should the UK have to accept freedom of movement and the jurisdiction of the EU court to get a decent trade deal?

Did Canada and Japan have to accept free movement of people to get their trade deals?

Of course there is a good deal to be had, the question is how far the EU is prepared to go to punish the UK for daring to leave. I travel and work throughout Europe and from recent trips to Germany it seems as though major companies out there are getting more and more exasperated with the stance that Barnier is taking. They are demanding (not asking or suggesting) that a trade deal is done as they don't want their products to become prohibitively expensive if there is no deal. Add 20% to the cost of German cars for example and all of a sudden their competitors products start looking a lot more attractive.

As an aside, I noticed that when the EU were making encouraging noises about the government's Chequers plan you went missing from this thread for several days. Now it's not looking quite so good you return to post your usual negative and one sided drivel.
		
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Japan and Canada didn't have to accept free movement of people because they are not within the single market. Their trade deal is no where near as good. As a member of the single market, we have tariff-free trade with the EU, and there is free movement of goods, services, people and capital between the UK and rest of the EU. The Norway and Canada options have been broadly framed as a choice between having a high level of access to EU markets and a high degree of EU regulation (Norway), or a lower level of access and regulation (Canada).

So, no the EU are not 'punishing' the UK for leaving,. It's as simple that as we will no longer be part of the club we won't be entitled to all the benefits.


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## User62651 (Oct 10, 2018)

If Raab and May get a deal agreed in principle with EU within a month, when does that deal become a white paper to debate and vote on in parliament? How long would it take to get an actual parliamentary vote done and dusted wrt 29th March. If she doesn't get parliamentary approval by 29th March what happens? Do we just ask for an extension?
Any May deal is going to be a compromise on Chequers it seems which is already seen as weak by the ERG Tories (50?) who will not back it, SNP (35) will not back any deal that means leaving single market and CU, DUP (10) may not back it if it weakens NIreland in UK position an iota, Labour seem to drift on the wind - not sure what they're doing, LibDems (12?) will be same position as SNP so wont back it in current form.

How on earth does May get this moving forward? May is determined but is she deluded as well?
Notice Sky pushing for leader debates, guaranteed May will not partake as she knows she can't handle questions under pressure.

Clear as mud!


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## Hobbit (Oct 10, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			If Raab and May get a deal agreed in principle with EU within a month, when does that deal become a white paper to debate and vote on in parliament? How long would it take to get an actual parliamentary vote done and dusted wrt 29th March. If she doesn't get parliamentary approval by 29th March what happens? Do we just ask for an extension?
Any May deal is going to be a compromise on Chequers it seems which is already seen as weak by the ERG Tories (50?) who will not back it, SNP (35) will not back any deal that means leaving single market and CU, DUP (10) may not back it if it weakens NIreland in UK position an iota, Labour seem to drift on the wind - not sure what they're doing, LibDems (12?) will be same position as SNP so wont back it in current form.

How on earth does May get this moving forward? May is determined but is she deluded as well?
Notice Sky pushing for leader debates, guaranteed May will not partake as she knows she can't handle questions under pressure.

Clear as mud!
		
Click to expand...

As the EU have said they don't like the Chequers plan either but have repeated that a Canada style deal is on the table I wonder what the final deal will look like. A Canada style deal is favoured by Mogg's ERG, and Davies wrote to Tory MP's last week advocating a Canada style deal.

If the deal does, in large, look like a Canada style deal, that's the Tory rebels sorted. Most of the rest of the Tories will follow the Whip. If it satisfies the DUP, that's them in line. A few Brexit supporting Labour might vote as they did last time, and support it. It'll be close.

But if May continues to hang her hat on Chequers or nothing, she is deluded. And it will be the end of her. Maybe that whats she's angling for, back me or sack me.


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## drdel (Oct 10, 2018)

A vote by MPs doesn't alter the signed Art 50 or the March 29th.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2018)

Well - four weeks on holiday (in Europe) and not paying much attention to what has gone on (other than when Germans, Swiss, Spanish, Dutch and Belgian nationals have been asking me what on earth we think we are doing) - and it seems that, with days to go, things are not really going to plan - assuming that is that the government actually _had _a plan for the negotiations post triggering Article 50.

Or maybe they are going to plan - and the apparent ignorance and denial in many (including astonishingly members of the government and many Tory MPs) of the impact of a hard Brexit or No Deal Brexit is all a bluff that the EU will buy...and we will get the deal that does minimal damage to the UK economy - because we won't be getting a deal that makes us immeasurably better off (as Leave promised).   But to be fair maybe we will be better off when the unicorns come galloping over the hill in 5-10yrs time bringing us the deals with everyone around the world that we couldn't strike today and that will make us all better off - though if I believe JR-M I'll be in my 110s by the time that comes about.  I am hopeful that a medical or technical solution comes along that will keep me going until then.  But I do not hold my breath.  Maybe by then a technical solution to the NU/EU border will also have been invented.

And yet clever people continue to claim that this is what was promised and that all who voted to leave knew all along that this would be how things would turn out

Oh dear.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 15, 2018)

With the Brexit negotiations in an absolute mess, the wonks at _Open Europe _have helpfully modelled the potential impact of a no deal scenario in a new report and found that the medium-term impact of no deal on the UKâ€™s economic growth would be small and could largely be mitigated by unilateral action. Their modelling finds a drag on growth of only 0.17% per annum up to 2030, which could be reduced to a mere 0.04% p.a. if the UK adopted unilateral trade liberalisation measures. GDP will still be over 30% higher than today. _Not the doomsday scenario Remainers like to talk aboutâ€¦_ 

The bottom line is that the terms of Brexit are _â€œvery unlikely to be the determining factor for the UK economyâ€™s medium-term and long-term growth prospectsâ€ _â€“ there are many other economic and political factors that are likely to have a far bigger impact over the next few years. _Like the introduction of Venezuelan-style socialismâ€¦_
If the UK wants no deal to be a credible negotiating position it needs a plan to turbocharge the economy, not simply to talk about averting catastrophe. _That is what the EU really fearsâ€¦_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2018)

Just two examples (and they are too numerous) - from yesterday - in the same interview - Andrew Bridgen MP on UK citizens entitlement to an Irish passport and cross-border workers...for a Remain voter this sort of ignorance is just not funny any more.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...his-ignorance-over-ireland-on-5live-1-5736665

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...-interview-with-rte-audrey-carville-1-5700147

Meanwhile the FS Jeremy Hunt has been telling his Eastern European counterparts that a Brexit deal is *essential* for maintaining global security.  So what happened to No Deal is better than a bad deal?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			With the Brexit negotiations in an absolute mess, the wonks at _Open Europe _have helpfully modelled the potential impact of a no deal scenario in a new report and found that the medium-term impact of no deal on the UKâ€™s economic growth would be small and could largely be mitigated by unilateral action. Their modelling finds a drag on growth of only 0.17% per annum up to 2030, which could be reduced to a mere 0.04% p.a.* if the UK adopted unilateral trade liberalisation measures. *GDP will still be over 30% higher than today. _Not the doomsday scenario Remainers like to talk aboutâ€¦_

The bottom line is that the terms of Brexit are _â€œvery unlikely to be the determining factor for the UK economyâ€™s medium-term and long-term growth prospectsâ€ _â€“ there are many other economic and political factors that are likely to have a far bigger impact over the next few years. _Like the introduction of Venezuelan-style socialismâ€¦_
If the UK wants no deal to be a credible negotiating position it needs a plan to turbocharge the economy, not simply to talk about averting catastrophe. _That is what the EU really fearsâ€¦_

Click to expand...

If we accept what this modelling finds - though why this modelling should be accepted when alternative modelling is dismissed and rejected by Leave voters I am not so sure - what are these trade liberalisation measures referred to?


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## Dando (Oct 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - four weeks on holiday (in Europe) and not paying much attention to what has gone on (other than when Germans, Swiss, Spanish, Dutch and Belgian nationals have been asking me what on earth we think we are doing) - and it seems that, with days to go, things are not really going to plan - assuming that is that the government actually _had _a plan for the negotiations post triggering Article 50.

Or maybe they are going to plan - and the apparent ignorance and denial in many (including astonishingly members of the government and many Tory MPs) of the impact of a hard Brexit or No Deal Brexit is all a bluff that the EU will buy...and we will get the deal that does minimal damage to the UK economy - because we won't be getting a deal that makes us immeasurably better off (as Leave promised).   But to be fair maybe we will be better off when the unicorns come galloping over the hill in 5-10yrs time bringing us the deals with everyone around the world that we couldn't strike today and that will make us all better off - though if I believe JR-M I'll be in my 110s by the time that comes about.  I am hopeful that a medical or technical solution comes along that will keep me going until then.  But I do not hold my breath.  Maybe by then a technical solution to the NU/EU border will also have been invented.

And yet clever people continue to claim that this is what was promised and that all who voted to leave knew all along that this would be how things would turn out

Oh dear.
		
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And it was a lovely 4 weeks for us all!

I was recently on holiday in Europe and not one person asked me anything about brexit!!!


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## PieMan (Oct 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - four weeks on holiday (in Europe) and not paying much attention to what has gone on (other than when Germans, Swiss, Spanish, Dutch and Belgian nationals have been asking me what on earth we think we are doing) .
		
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True - I'd definitely be asking why on earth you're going on holiday to Holland or Belgium!! Long weekend maybe to Amsterdam or Bruges, but nowhere else in either of those 2 countries as they're pretty bland and boring! There's a reason most European conflicts have been fought in Belgium - saves ruining a lot of lovely, picturesque places!!

But being serious now, what about the people you encountered who a) don't actually care about Brexit; or b) actually jealous that we are leaving (because there are a fair few of those I can tell you from my own experience of travelling to Europe for work since the referendum)?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2018)

Dando said:



			And it was a lovely 4 weeks for us all!

I was recently on holiday in Europe and not one person asked me anything about brexit!!!
		
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They were probably too embarrassed to speak with you abot it, no such hesitation by them with me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2018)

PieMan said:



			True - I'd definitely be asking why on earth you're going on holiday to Holland or Belgium!! Long weekend maybe to Amsterdam or Bruges, but nowhere else in either of those 2 countries as they're pretty bland and boring! There's a reason most European conflicts have been fought in Belgium - saves ruining a lot of lovely, picturesque places!!

But being serious now, what about the people you encountered who a) don't actually care about Brexit; or b) actually jealous that we are leaving (because there are a fair few of those I can tell you from my own experience of travelling to Europe for work since the referendum)?
		
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Who said I was on holiday in Belgium and Holland?  I was in Scotland and Spain and spoke to tourists of many nationalities as well as locals.

Nobody in Spain I spoke with thought what we were doing was to our advantage...though I did have a bit of a debate with the Brexit-voting husband of one of my cousins.  His main worry are unrealistic expectations many leave voters have in respect of wages and immigration.

Anyway sounds like the EU/NI border issue remains a critical stumbling block.  Though just on that - if sorting it - technologically or otherwise - will be so easy (as proclaimed by many Leave Leaders) and by implication implementable in relatively short timescales - what is the issue that these same people have with an open-ended timescale for getting it in place?

And meanwhile - implementing the M26 lorry park has started (without the government really telling anyone) - and in response JR-M tells LBC that - yes - there might be some delay and hold-up issues whilst things are sorted out with the EU.  But of course he 'admits' this in his most JR-M insouciant way because for JR-M nothing about leaving the EU - even with No Deal - is that BIG a deal.  Well maybe not for him immediately but he might feel differently as his feet are held to the fire.


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## Dando (Oct 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They were probably too embarrassed to speak with you abot it, no such hesitation by them with me.
		
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Why would they be embarrassed?


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## Slime (Oct 15, 2018)

Dando said:



			Why would they be embarrassed?
		
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Because SILH said so!


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## IanM (Oct 15, 2018)

Quoting the New European about Brexit is a bit like quoting Mein Kampf about race relations!


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## chrisd (Oct 15, 2018)

I was in the US and they didn't care!

Good to see the SILH has come back to breathe new life into a thread that hardly anyone cared about for 4 weeks ðŸ˜£


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## Old Skier (Oct 15, 2018)

Dando said:



			And it was a lovely 4 weeks for us all!

I was recently on holiday in Europe and not one person asked me anything about brexit!!!
		
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Strange, spent the long weekend with friends from Germany, they are getting worried about their own political predicament and suggesting that the EU as we know it is living on borrowed time. They also said that it looks like Poland and Hungary might be looking for a way out if they don't get a bigger say in things.

I wonder why the Swiss are getting involved.


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## Old Skier (Oct 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And meanwhile - implementing the M26 lorry park has started (without the government really telling anyone) .
		
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Are you sure your not getting confused with the new housing development going on at the Ashford Jct.


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## drdel (Oct 16, 2018)

Anyone flying out of Alicante will see the Brits are now segregated into their own lane. Do they know something we don't?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 16, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I was in the US and they didn't care!
		
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To be fair most Americans don't care about anything that happens outside of the US .

I deal with European customers every day and at this point none of them care either. That could change when we know what will happen but until then most of us just keep moving along.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 16, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Are you sure your not getting confused with the new housing development going on at the Ashford Jct.
		
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No, heâ€™s just using any news article he can find to try and keep his monumental wind up going. ðŸ™„


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## Hobbit (Oct 16, 2018)

Heard plenty of Brits over here in Spain talking about it but not heard a dicky whisper from the locals since just after the vote. Honestly, although the politicians over here speak about it occasionally, the rest of the country don't care.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Heard plenty of Brits over here in Spain talking about it but not heard a dicky whisper from the locals since just after the vote. Honestly, although the politicians over here speak about it occasionally, the rest of the country don't care.
		
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When you think about it, Spain, Greece and Italy to an extent recently went through major financial meltdowns. Spain had / has(?) huge youth unemployment, terrible housing debt, the Greeks are effectively bankrupt, Italy not far behind. None of those things were talking points down the local cafe or pub in the UK yet would be all encompassing in each of those countries. It is the way of things.


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## adam6177 (Oct 16, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			When you think about it, Spain, Greece and Italy to an extent recently went through major financial meltdowns. Spain had / has(?) huge youth unemployment, terrible housing debt, the Greeks are effectively bankrupt, Italy not far behind. None of those things were talking points down the local cafe or pub in the UK yet would be all encompassing in each of those countries. It is the way of things.
		
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Spain, Greece and Italy dont get talked about much because they dont back up the eutopian view of staying in the EU.  Only talk about what supports your argument.....pretty sure thats how it works.


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## Foxholer (Oct 16, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To be fair most Americans don't care about anything that happens outside of the US .
...l then most of us just keep moving along.
		
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Probably even outside their State - or maybe County!

They actually don't hear a great deal obout what happens outside USA, unless their armed forces are involved! So pretty understandable really!


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## drdel (Oct 16, 2018)

So the EU has a summit tomorrow. While UK is still a member the PM will be allowed to speak few minutes in a separate room after the current president and then she will be excluded from the dinner. Barnier will then be able to give his spin to the 27 for as long as it takes.

IMO it's not the way mature partners discuss strategy and conduct mutually beneficial planning. Another humiliation is on the cards I feel while Barmier shows what a tough negotiator he is while cementing his future in the EU.

We need to see they have no intention of making any concessions and never had. They have just wasted time. 

An emboldened EU centre will hurt Bavaria, Italy, Spain and Greece and the Eastern bloc members may well be courted by Russia.


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## PieMan (Oct 16, 2018)

drdel said:



			So the EU has a summit tomorrow. While UK is still a member the PM will be allowed to speak few minutes in a separate room after the current president and then she will be excluded from the dinner. Barnier will then be able to give his spin to the 27 for as long as it takes.

IMO it's not the way mature partners discuss strategy and conduct mutually beneficial planning. Another humiliation is on the cards I feel while Barmier shows what a tough negotiator he is while cementing his future .
		
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I can understand where you're coming from but this was the agreement right from the off when it came to Brexit. Only right the EU 27 should discuss Brexit related matters without the UK being present.

Should also be noted though that when I've been representing UK at EU meetings in Brussels and WTO meetings in Geneva (as part of the EU delegation), I've had just as much say on the issues we've been discussing/negotiating as colleagues from other MS.


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## Mudball (Oct 17, 2018)

drdel said:



			Anyone flying out of Alicante will see the Brits are now segregated into their own lane. Do they know something we don't?
		
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Thats probably to do with our behaviour than our passports.


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## woody69 (Oct 17, 2018)

drdel said:



			So the EU has a summit tomorrow. While UK is still a member the PM will be allowed to speak few minutes in a separate room after the current president and then she will be excluded from the dinner. Barnier will then be able to give his spin to the 27 for as long as it takes.

IMO it's not the way mature partners discuss strategy and conduct mutually beneficial planning. Another humiliation is on the cards I feel while Barmier shows what a tough negotiator he is while cementing his future in the EU.

We need to see they have no intention of making any concessions and never had. They have just wasted time.
		
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No they haven't. They have been very clear on what is and isn't acceptable to them from the start. It's not the fault of the EU that the UK Government has been chancing it's luck to try and get something that was never on the table as part of the divorce process.


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## User62651 (Oct 17, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Heard plenty of Brits over here in Spain talking about it but not heard a dicky whisper from the locals since just after the vote. Honestly, although the politicians over here speak about it occasionally, the rest of the country don't care.
		
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Yep, if it was Spain leaving, we wouldn't give it much thought here. I've been in Spain and Italy this year and wasn't aware of any Brexit news/chat. I think Brits over there tend to shut up about it too, embarrassed generally.
We always forget the poor Gibraltarians though, dragged out of EU despite a 96% remain vote. Not sure what'll happen at that border wrt daily supplies to the rock from Spain.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 17, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Yep, if it was Spain leaving, we wouldn't give it much thought here. I've been in Spain and Italy this year and wasn't aware of any Brexit news/chat. I think Brits over there tend to shut up about it too, embarrassed generally.
We always forget the poor Gibraltarians though, dragged out of EU despite a 96% remain vote. Not sure what'll happen at that border wrt daily supplies to the rock from Spain.
		
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I saw an interesting piece last week by the mayor, or equivalent, of Gibraltar. He was pointing out how much business the province of Andalucia does with Gibraltar and whilst Spain and Gibraltar may have a fractious relationship the relationship between Gibraltar and the local govt in Andalucia is very good. Locally, Gibraltar is important to their economy. I have no doubt that is reciprocal but it is always worth remembering that smooth movement is important to both parties.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Are you sure your not getting confused with the new housing development going on at the Ashford Jct.
		
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Erm - No

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/malling/news/mps-fury-at-secret-plans-to-shut-m26-191376/

or will you be denying the truth of this and telling us that it is fake news


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## Old Skier (Oct 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Erm - No

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/malling/news/mps-fury-at-secret-plans-to-shut-m26-191376/

or will you be denying the truth of this and telling us that it is fake news
		
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I'm not sure if your right or not but I suppose the fourth lane of a smart motorway (which is what the highway signs indicate) could be used as a lorry park as you can bet your bottom dollar that the public won't use it.

PS: it's been used for days on end previously so it's not something new although I hope they keep it clear on the days I go to Le Touquet next year.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not sure if your right or not but I suppose the fourth lane of a smart motorway (which is what the highway signs indicate) could be used as a lorry park as you can bet your bottom dollar that the public won't use it.

PS: it's been used for days on end previously so it's not something new although I hope they keep it clear on the days I go to Le Touquet next year.
		
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I suggest that it'll involve more than using a fourth lane.  But lets not worry about such little things as we charge towards goodness knows what sort of mess - just hope you have your visa sorted for Le Touquet.


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## Old Skier (Oct 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But lets not worry about such little things as we charge towards goodness knows what sort of mess -.
		
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Strange, most of your posts tells exactly what's going to happen, are you know saying, like most of us, you haven't a clue what will happen and it's just possible it's not all gloom and doom.


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## woody69 (Oct 17, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Strange, most of your posts tells exactly what's going to happen, are you know saying, like most of us, you haven't a clue what will happen and it's just possible it's not all gloom and doom.
		
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Yeah, everything will be great, I'm sure. We will have adequate food


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Strange, most of your posts tells exactly what's going to happen, are you know saying, like most of us, you haven't a clue what will happen and it's just possible it's not all gloom and doom.
		
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Yup - let's just not bother ourselves about what might happen post 29th March because that's the future.  Just the way that businesses are run - just for today - deal with tomorrow tomorrow.  Funny that that actually isn't the case - when every businessman has to try and predict the future and act accordingly in the best interests of their business and their customers - even though they can't actually tell what the future will bring.

Very easy to dismiss concerns being expressed about what might happen in the event of No Deal when you are - as most here are - relatively well off and pretty cushioned or insulated from a bad outcome.  Unfortunately there are many out there not as fortunate as us.  It's a pity that some don't seem to care and dismiss those who do express concern.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 18, 2018)

SILH
When I left Skool, one of the teachers said to me " may all you wish for in life is health and not wealth". I thought he was talking Rammel. I had just spent 11 years at Skool being educated to get a decent job with decent money, and now I am being told to wish for health. Now I am retired, my health is Number one priority. Being "relatively well off, as most are on here" is secondary. The dismissal of concerns as I have read on here is equally disconcerning when concerns of the majority of people that voted Brexit are dismissed.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 18, 2018)

I'm slightly confused this morning. I thought I had followed the whole negotiations, tricky as things changed on a daily basis, but today seems to be:

We are due to leave on March 29th 2019, except....

We are not, we are going into a transition period of 2 years where little will change, except.............

If we can't agree on the Irish border then we will just leave on March 29th 2019, except........

If we can't agree on the Irish border then we will remain for 3 years not 2 because somehow, miraculously, someone will come up with an idea in those 3 years that they have not been able to come up with so far or will not be able to think of in the next 2 years.

Have I got this right?


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## adam6177 (Oct 18, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Have I got this right? 

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pretty much, yup.  

This whole saga is enforcing my view that this government are intentionally making such a hash of this whole process that eventually it just wont happen as they're proving themselves to be incompetent. I'm coming to the realisaiton that brexit will never happen and we'll never know if we could have been better off not being ruled by the iron fist. 

What disgusts me even more is that the two "credible" parties in this country than could run us are proving that they'd struggle to even run a bath.  This is the junk we're forced to live under.


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## User62651 (Oct 18, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm slightly confused this morning. I thought I had followed the whole negotiations, tricky as things changed on a daily basis, but today seems to be:

We are due to leave on March 29th 2019, except....

We are not, we are going into a transition period of 2 years where little will change, except.............

If we can't agree on the Irish border then we will just leave on March 29th 2019, except........

If we can't agree on the Irish border then we will remain for 3 years not 2 because somehow, miraculously, someone will come up with an idea in those 3 years that they have not been able to come up with so far or will not be able to think of in the next 2 years.

*Have I got this right?* 

Click to expand...

I think you do.
Collective 'manyana', just put it off and it might become someone else's problem.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			I think you do.
Collective 'manyana', just put it off and it might become someone else's problem.
		
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Meanwhile Johnson tells us that when he signed up to the Exit framework agreement in December he didn't understand the implications of the backstop aspect - in fact he claims that he was *misled *by Downing Street - and so he should be allowed to change his mind.  Oh good grief - you could not make this up.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...n-mocks-boris-johnson-over-his-irish-backstop


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## jp5 (Oct 18, 2018)

Certainly looks like May is trying to push this out to the next General Election in 2022, which the Tories certainly won't let May contest, so it all becomes someone else's problem. 

Still can't figure out why we don't have someone who backed Brexit in charge to implement their vision of the project.


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## User62651 (Oct 18, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Certainly looks like May is trying to push this out to the next General Election in 2022, which the Tories certainly won't let May contest, so it all becomes someone else's problem.

Still can't figure out why we don't have someone who backed Brexit in charge to implement their vision of the project.
		
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Brexit is only one issue of hundreds any PM has to deal with.
1922 committee method is how Tories choose their leader - Leadsom, Gove, Johnson, Crabb, May and maybe one or two others I forget stood, they elected May. Democracy..... as Brexiteers so often like to point out.


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## Crazyface (Oct 18, 2018)

IF, there was a way to demonstrate my annoyance at the incompetence of our leaders, Government and otherwise, then I'd do it tomorrow. But there isn't. And we are left being run by morons.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2018)

Far be it from me to defend the Tories, but I suspect that half the problem is that we're asking them to do something that is almost impossible and that many of them think will make them less popular than Cliff Richard at the tennis when it's raining. 

In all fairness, it's a problem that they created themselves but the predicament they find themselves in would be funny if it weren't so damned serious!!


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## spongebob59 (Oct 18, 2018)

Irish border question solved :

https://order-order.com/2018/10/18/...rish-parliament-no-hard-border-event-no-deal/


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## User62651 (Oct 18, 2018)

Crazyface said:



*IF, there was a way* to demonstrate my annoyance at the incompetence of our leaders, Government and otherwise, then I'd do it tomorrow. But there isn't. And we are left being run by morons.
		
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You've just done it, on here.   Maybe a 1000 people will read your post!
Or you could get yourself along to Speakers Corner come Sunday.


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## drdel (Oct 18, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			Irish border question solved :

https://order-order.com/2018/10/18/...rish-parliament-no-hard-border-event-no-deal/

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But that's the reality and ( how truthful we think Juncker's past has provided evidence) on the other-hand we have Barnier who has turned it into a big political deal for his show-boating and conveniently forgetting how the EU manages its border with the Swiss


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## woody69 (Oct 18, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			pretty much, yup.

This whole saga is enforcing my view that this government are intentionally making such a hash of this whole process that eventually it just wont happen as they're proving themselves to be incompetent. I'm coming to the realisaiton that brexit will never happen and we'll never know if we could have been better off not *being ruled by the iron fist*.

What disgusts me even more is that the two "credible" parties in this country than could run us are proving that they'd struggle to even run a bath.  This is the junk we're forced to live under.
		
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This is as hilarious as it is ridiculous.


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## IanM (Oct 18, 2018)

Why?  Pretty much every vote against the EU gets re-run or ignored.

The policos have united to ensure this goes the same way.  Never mind, we already know that some folk would rather watch Love Island than go out and vote!


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2018)

IanM said:



			Never mind, we already know that some folk would rather watch Love Island than go out and vote!
		
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Especially if it's raining ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2018)

And it's Project Fear II - as Brexiteers tell us all the terrible things that _*are *_going to happen and that the EU is going to impose and demand - were the transition / implementation period to be extended.

Oh the irony of it all.  Marvellous how _*they *_can predict the future so accurately, when those who fear the worst of a post Brexit calamity are just fearmongers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			SILH
When I left Skool, one of the teachers said to me " may all you wish for in life is health and not wealth". I thought he was talking Rammel. I had just spent 11 years at Skool being educated to get a decent job with decent money, and now I am being told to wish for health. Now I am retired, my health is Number one priority. Being "relatively well off, as most are on here" is secondary. The dismissal of concerns as I have read on here is equally disconcerning when_* concerns of the majority of people that voted Brexit are dismissed.*_

Click to expand...

Which would be very true and understandable were many of these fears not based upon many a false premise propagated by fanatically anti-EU MPs and by the Right Wing press - with leaving the EU - whatever that might actually mean -  being sold as the answer to these fears.  

And in most cases leaving will not allay the fears or provide a solution to the problems that are very real - but in fact might very well make them worse - with greatest impact on the very part of the population least able to cope with a worsened situation.

Even Farage is no longer telling of a brave new world.  His line is now that we are leaving for better or for worse - and if worse then that will be acceptable for the great prize - independence.  Not that I have heard many ways that regaining sovereignty and independence will actually benefit me, or more to the point - benefit the poorer of society - many of whom voted to Leave.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Far be it from me to defend the Tories, but I suspect that half the problem is that we're asking them to do something that is almost impossible and that many of them think will make them less popular than Cliff Richard at the tennis when it's raining.

In all fairness, it's a problem that they created themselves but the predicament they find themselves in would be funny if it weren't so damned serious!!
		
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I might defend May - a little - but will not consider any defence of the Tory Party as it is their infighting and fears of the charlatan Farage that has got us in this mess.  May is faced with an intractable conundrum and is trying to find the solution that will cause the least damage to the UK,  especially when almost no-one you can believe now seems to push the line that a No Deal will be anything other than very bad for the UK and us all.


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## Dando (Oct 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which would be very true and understandable were many of these fears not based upon many a false premise propagated by fanatically anti-EU MPs and by the Right Wing press - with leaving the EU - whatever that might actually mean -  being sold as the answer to these fears. 

And in most cases leaving will not allay the fears or provide a solution to the problems that are very real - but in fact might very well make them worse - with greatest impact on the very part of the population least able to cope with a worsened situation.

Even Farage is no longer telling of a brave new world.  His line is now that we are leaving for better or for worse - and if worse then that will be acceptable for the great prize - independence.  Not that I have heard many ways that regaining sovereignty and independence will actually benefit me, or more to the point - benefit the poorer of society - many of whom voted to Leave.
		
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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I might defend May - a little - but will not consider any defence of the Tory Party as it is their infighting and fears of the charlatan Farage that has got us in this mess.  May is faced with an intractable conundrum and is trying to find the solution that will cause the least damage to the UK,  especially when almost no-one you can believe now seems to push the line that a No Deal will be anything other than very bad for the UK and us all.
		
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Labour are implicit in muddying the Brexit Waters as are the Tory Remainers like Clarke, Sourbry and many more. who have not had the political morality to accept the democratic vote and get behind the outcome.   You also need to understand that people who voted leave are not expecting a brave new world of milk and honey, they expect there will  some ups and downs but believe that returning to be an independent Country with control of our Borders, Laws and Money will be a fair price to pay for any short term losses. 

I know you will never agree to what I am saying, even if things were to turn out well, you are too single minded and blinkered to see any positives in Brexit.  If the vote had been to stay then people like me would have shrugged our disappointment off and hoped the Nation well in the newly reformed EU.


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			If the vote had been to stay then people like me would have shrugged our disappointment off and hoped the Nation well in the newly reformed EU.
		
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ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ 
That's one of the issues - the EU always makes noises about needing to reform.......and never does!! Been in too many meetings with Commission officials to know that it's never going to happen!!


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## drdel (Oct 18, 2018)

PieMan said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
That's one of the issues - the EU always makes noises about needing to reform.......and never does!! Been in too many meetings with Commission officials to know that it's never going to happen!!
		
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Exactly - a committee of 27 has too much inertia to function efficiently. The EU's undemocratic management is always 'agreeing' on the surface while simply allowing decisions to ebbs and flow with the conflicting goals while constantly pretending eutopia is just within their grasp with just a bit more time and a bigger and bigger budget.


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## Old Skier (Oct 18, 2018)

Good to find out from SILH that I am reasonably well off, best tell HID, and he is only interested in a solution that gives HIM the land of milk and honey.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 18, 2018)

This is copied from Peston :

Hello from Brussels and the EU Council that promised a Brexit breakthrough and delivered nothing.
So on the basis of conversations with well placed sources, this is how I think the Brexit talks are placed (WARNING: if you are fearful of a no-deal Brexit, or are of a nervous disposition, stop reading now).
1) Forget about having any clue when we leave about the nature and structure of the UKâ€™s future trading relationship with the EU. The government heads of the EU27 have rejected Chequers. Wholesale. And they regard it as far too late to put in place the building blocks of that future relationship before we leave on 29 March 2019. So any Political Declaration on the future relationship will be waffly, vague and general. It will be what so many MPs detest: a blind Brexit. The PM may say that wonâ€™t happen. No one here (except perhaps her own Downing St team) believes her.
2) The earliest date for a deal on Brexit terms - that vacuous Political Declaration and the Withdrawal Agreement - is now the Council in mid December. But even that date may prove too challenging.
3) The gulf between the EU27 and May, as you know, is over how to keep open the Northern Ireland border. There is no chance of the EU abandoning its insistence that there should be a backstop - with no expiry date - of Northern Ireland, but not Great Britain, remaining in the Customs Union and the single market. That would involve the introduction of the commercial border in the Irish Sea that May says must never be drawn.
4) All efforts therefore from the UK are aimed at putting in place other arrangements to make it impossible for that backstop to be introduced.
5) Her ruse for doing this is the creation of another backstop that would involve the whole of the UK staying in something that looks like the customs union.
6) But she feels cannot commit to keeping the UK in the customs union forever, because her Brexiter MPs wonâ€™t let her. So it does not work as a backstop. And anyway the Article 50 rules say that the Withdrawal Agreement must not contain provisions for a permanent trading relationship between the whole of the UK and the EU. Which is a hideous Catch 22.
7) There is a solution. She could ignore her Brexiter critics and announce the UK wanted written into the Political Declaration - as opposed to the Withdrawal Agreement - that we would be staying permanently in the customs union. This is one bit of specificity the rest of the EU would allow into the Political Declaration. And it could be nodded at in the Withdrawal Agreement.
8) But if she announces we are staying in the Customs Union she would be crossing her reddest of red lines because she would have to abandon her ambition of negotiating free trade deals with non-EU countries. Liam Fox would be made redundant.
9) She knows, because her Brexit negotiator Olly Robbins has told her, that her best chance - probably her only chance of securing a Brexit deal - is to sign up for the customs union.
10) In its absence, no-deal Brexit is massively in play.
11) But a customs-union Brexit deal would see her Brexiter MPs become incandescent with fury.
12)Labour of course would be on the spot, since its one practical Brexit policy is to stay in the Customs Union.
13) This therefore is Mayâ€™s Robert Peel moment. She could agree a Customs Union Brexit and get it through Parliament with Labour support - while simultaneously cleaving her own party in two.
14) It is a Customs Union Brexit, or leave the EU without a deal.
15) Which will May choose? Ultimately this is her choice, and hers alone. It is her moment in history.


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## Hobbit (Oct 18, 2018)

Someone spent a lot of time talking about the need for compromise. We hear the the vast majority of what has been put before the EU is Brexit in name only. Many consider that the team led by May has compromised far too much.

And still itâ€™s not good enough for the person that espoused compromise.

A question; when is the honourable gentleman for Surrey going to meet the Brexiteers halfway?


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## Old Skier (Oct 18, 2018)

What's the odds on a general election being called before Christmas.


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## Old Skier (Oct 18, 2018)

Merkal, Macron and the EU Commission all saying different things today, no wonder nobody knows whether we are coming or going, but, according to SILH it's al the U.K. Governments fault.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2018)

Merkel and Macron saying UK citizens living in their countries would need to apply for visas as third country immigrants.  We have made it clear Eu citizens will have the right to residency in the UK even if we do not reach a withdraw agreement.   Will they now get the same rubbishing some on here were giving to their own government before we made this offer.


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## Mudball (Oct 19, 2018)

In the meanwhile in the brave new world ... 

In new NAFTA agreement (USMCA) a novel clause enables the US to control trade partners' freedom to do trade deals with other nations. The relative size of US GDP ($19.39tr) cf. with e.g. Canada ($1.65tr) enabled it to demand that clause.

Would the  UK be in same position in negotiating a deal with US.  US GDP $19.39tr vs. UK GDP $2.62tr. EU, however, as larger economy than US (GDP $20.3tr) can & would refuse such control...

.... I m sure our special relationship with tRump-land will ignore all these..


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## jp5 (Oct 19, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			We have made it clear Eu citizens will have the right to residency in the UK even if we do not reach a withdraw agreement.
		
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Mrs May also made it clear there would not be a General Election last year. I can understand that the EU nationals may not take her word for it!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 19, 2018)

Dando said:





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QED


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 19, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Good to find out from SILH that I am reasonably well off, best tell HID, and he is only interested in a solution that gives HIM the land of milk and honey.
		
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I actually suggested that most here will be _relatively _well off.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Mrs May also made it clear there would not be a General Election last year. I can understand that the EU nationals may not take her word for it!
		
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It is a pledge from the UK Government.


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## User62651 (Oct 20, 2018)

A Monster people's vote (stop brexit) march today in London. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542. May will pay it no heed of course per her usual deluded head in sand approach.

The young including those too young to vote in 2016 are getting mobilised at last it seems. The divisions in this country just get deeper and deeper. There is absolutely no sense of the country getting behind Brexit. If anything divisions are worse than June 2016 imo.
SNP and Sinn Fein are smirking in the wings as their causes are aided no-end by the Tories.

Whatever May does or doesn't do wrt Brexit from now, the Conservatives seem finished as a governing party for a generation, the infighting is so bad. They have no support from the young to take forward.

Whatever your view on Brexit and Conservatism, it's not great is it? 
And on and on it goes.....


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2018)

To be fair, a policy decided by a vote should not be overturned by a march. The marchers may be vocal but the chance to make a difference was when the vote took place.


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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To be fair, a policy decided by a vote should not be overturned by a march. The marchers may be vocal but the chance to make a difference was when the vote took place.
		
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A minor point, and a bit pedantic, but they're not marching to change policy. They're marching for a second vote. The policy could be changed on the result of that......


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			...
Whatever May does or doesn't do wrt Brexit from now, the Conservatives seem finished as a governing party for a generation, the infighting is so bad. They have no support from the young to take forward.
...
		
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That argument might (would only!) be valid if there was a credible alternative!

But HM's Official Opposition is/wpould be in the same quandry! And they haven't demonstrated any better approach to the Referendum result! And they have other huge internal issues!


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2018)

To be fair, a policy decided by a vote should not be overturned by a march. The marchers may be vocal but the chance to make a difference was when the vote took place.

They are


bluewolf said:



			A minor point, and a bit pedantic, but they're not marching to change policy. They're marching for a second vote. The policy could be changed on the result of that......
		
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Fair point and not pedantic .

I think my reply to them would be that a second vote can come after the first has been fulfilled


bluewolf said:



			A minor point, and a bit pedantic, but they're not marching to change policy. They're marching for a second vote. The policy could be changed on the result of that......
		
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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To be fair, a policy decided by a vote should not be overturned by a march. The marchers may be vocal but the chance to make a difference was when the vote took place.

They are

Fair point and not pedantic .

I think my reply to them would be that a second vote can come after the first has been fulfilled
		
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I would respectfully disagree. If the Government were about to enact something that you believed would be fundamentally catastrophic for the safety and affluence of the Country. Wouldn't you want them to stop and reconsider?


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## User62651 (Oct 20, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			That argument might (would only!) be valid if there was a credible alternative!

But HM's Official Opposition is/wpould be in the same quandry! And they haven't demonstrated any better approach to the Referendum result! And they have other huge internal issues!
		
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Might not be so bad in that other parties have more say/seats and we get more coalition governments from now on, fine by me, reels in the left and right extremists to somewhere sensible in the centre, instead of red or blue we get a nice shade of mauve!


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## Hobbit (Oct 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I would respectfully disagree. If the Government were about to enact something that you believed would be fundamentally catastrophic for the safety and affluence of the Country. Wouldn't you want them to stop and reconsider?
		
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I think in its simplest form you're right. But there's millions of people that disagree, and have disagreed via the vote. I don't subscribe to the theory that all those that voted leave are thick. There's been plenty of intelligent people that voted leave. Equally, I guess there's a good few who voted stay who might only have a few CSE's. Economically, I think it will be damaging in the short term - quite what happens after that I don't know. But the choice made by many was a political choice, not an economic one. And their vote is just as good as anyone's.



maxfli65 said:



			Might not be so bad in that other parties have more say/seats and we get more coalition governments from now on, fine by me, reels in the left and right extremists to somewhere sensible in the centre, instead of red or blue we get a nice shade of mauve!
		
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I do hope you're right. We're missing a centrist party, like New Labour, of the 90's.


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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I think in its simplest form you're right. But there's millions of people that disagree, and have disagreed via the vote. I don't subscribe to the theory that all those that voted leave are thick. There's been plenty of intelligent people that voted leave. Equally, I guess there's a good few who voted stay who might only have a few CSE's. Economically, I think it will be damaging in the short term - quite what happens after that I don't know. But the choice made by many was a political choice, not an economic one. And their vote is just as good as anyone's.



I do hope you're right. We're missing a centrist party, like New Labour, of the 90's.
		
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I haven't insulted anyone's intelligence. There are plenty of stupids on either side of the divide. I think people were lied to and manipulated. That can happen to anyone.


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## Hobbit (Oct 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I haven't insulted anyone's intelligence. There are plenty of stupids on either side of the divide. I think people were lied to and manipulated. That can happen to anyone.
		
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I didn't say you had, it was a general comment - I know that's something you wouldn't do. My comment was more about whether or not MP's should change the direction. They got us into this awful mess.


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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I didn't say you had, it was a general comment - I know that's something you wouldn't do. My comment was more about whether or not MP's should change the direction. They got us into this awful mess.
		
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I like to think that this mess is the final nail in the coffin for all those conspiracy theorists who think that Governments are smart enough to mislead the World. The 2 main parties in this Country and in America have effectively ruined themselves without any help from anyone!!! They're not smart enough to boil water!!!!!


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Might not be so bad in that other parties have more say/seats and we get more coalition governments from now on, fine by me, reels in the left and right extremists to somewhere sensible in the centre, instead of red or blue we get a nice shade of mauve!
		
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I'm not convinced! 

UK parliamentary processes and parties are 'naturally' confrontational - quite unlike the many countries that have/expect coalitions. I believe the 2-Party system is actually what 'the electorate' actually wants (also either Blue or Red) - especially after the 'failed' (through diabolical PR imo) Tory/Dib-Dem one.

The problem with not having a clear majority is that instead of 'reasonable compromise' that can (and often did imo) happen in a coalition, laws are in effect hamstrung by clauses added or omitted in order to pander to those who happen to have more influence than they 'deserve'. The deal with the DUP is another example of how 'democracy can be "corrupted"'  too. Of course, it's also a demonstration of how the Westminster version of democracy actually works!


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			...
I do hope you're right. We're missing a centrist party, like New Labour, of the 90's.
		
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I agree! And would like to see it happen. 

Unfortunately, by applying the same 'control freakery' (within the party) that allowed 'New Labour' to become attractive to swing voters to the whole of the governing process, it also managed to make them subsequently unelectable! And (loss of control) changes to leadership elections has resulted in 'the wrong' candidate winning since! The handover from Blair to Broon was a serious debacle too! But the Iraq war debacle caused far more damage than the (global!) banking crisis, imo!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I would respectfully disagree. If the Government were about to enact something that you believed would be fundamentally catastrophic for the safety and affluence of the Country. Wouldn't you want them to stop and reconsider?
		
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You should replace 'funamentally ' with 'potentially' in that comment and then you would come across as a little more balanced. That's something sadly lacking in this debate.

They could be inacting somthing potentially invigorating and a boost for the safety and affluence of our country.  Remaining is no guarantee of a bright future.  of course we both may be completely wrong, things may stay much the same, who can say without a glass ball.


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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You should replace 'funamentally ' with 'potentially' in that comment and then you would come across as a little more balanced. That's something sadly lacking in this debate.

They could be inacting somthing potentially invigorating and a boost for the safety and affluence of our country.  Remaining is no guarantee of a bright future.  of course we both may be completely wrong, things may stay much the same, who can say without a glass ball.
		
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Unfortunately, you're reading it incorrectly. It's a question for another poster to answer. A theoretical mindset that is merely used to illustrate the reason why people are marching. It's not a description of my thought process (or maybe it is, but that's not the reason for the post). Your accusation of a lack of balance is therefore unfortunate and undeserved ðŸ‘


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2018)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542

Pretty impressive amount of people for the march today


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## Mudball (Oct 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542

Pretty impressive amount of people for the march today
		
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 Trump would say that there were more people at his inauguration..


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## Fade and Die (Oct 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542

Pretty impressive amount of people for the march today
		
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March of the Losers.

If they scrapped the result and had a rerun as the democracy deniers want you would have *Millions* on the street. It would be carnage.


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## ger147 (Oct 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542

Pretty impressive amount of people for the march today
		
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Not really - 33.5 million people voted in the referendum, only 2% of that figure were at the march...


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## Mudball (Oct 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542

Pretty impressive amount of people for the march today
		
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Not really.. just like lemmings in a huddle before the inevitable leap.. 

No one wants to listen.. you lost.. suck it and jump with us ..


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## adam6177 (Oct 21, 2018)

When I saw the initial figures for the march yesterday it was reported as 100,000.... By the end of the day according to the biased broadcasting company it had increased 7 fold... Absolute bull.

Also, why focus on a city that was largely remain.... Because it fits their biased agenda.

If there is to be a 2nd vote I expect there to be a 2nd vote/rerun on all democratic votes by the people. This should not be a special case.

And I still people spilling the "we were lied to" line...... You're saying that because you lost.

If this goes to another vote and leave wins again.... Then what, will you keep moaning for year after year or finally accept it?

I'll say it again.... Look what the EU has done for Spain, Greece and Italy. We've only coped so well because we are strong and in my opinion would be even stronger out of the EU.


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## bobmac (Oct 21, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			If this goes to another vote and leave wins again.... Then what, will you keep moaning for year after year or finally accept it?
		
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Or if remain win that's one each, we would then need a decider or best out of 5?


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			When I saw the initial figures for the march yesterday it was reported as 100,000.... By the end of the day according to the biased broadcasting company it had increased 7 fold... Absolute bull.

Also, why focus on a city that was largely remain.... Because it fits their biased agenda.

If there is to be a 2nd vote I expect there to be a 2nd vote/rerun on all democratic votes by the people. This should not be a special case.

And I still people spilling the "we were lied to" line...... You're saying that because you lost.

If this goes to another vote and leave wins again.... Then what, will you keep moaning for year after year or finally accept it?

I'll say it again.... Look what the EU has done for Spain, Greece and Italy. We've only coped so well because we are strong and in my opinion would be even stronger out of the EU.
		
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Maybe the march was organised in London because that's where the government are based. Just a crazy thought.

Still loving the, "you lost, get over it" line.

Also, just to add the issues in Spain, Greece, Portugal and Ireland are due to a number of complex reasons, but one of the reasons the UK has been fine is because we don't have the Euro, so are able to control the value of our currency easier.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			March of the Losers.

If they scrapped the result and had a rerun as the democracy deniers want you would have *Millions* on the street. It would be carnage.
		
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I think 1200 attended the leave means leave rally in Harrogate yesterday


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2018)

If you discount the wallies and professional lefties who march for the sake of marching you can probably half the already over-egged numbers which I've seen spread from 350k to 750k.


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## Dellboy (Oct 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542

Pretty impressive amount of people for the march today
		
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But..


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			March of the Losers.

If they scrapped the result and had a rerun as the democracy deniers want you would have *Millions* on the street. It would be carnage.
		
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I doubt there would be â€œmillionsâ€ ( believe a couple thousand attended a march Farage arranges ) 

And using the term â€œlosersâ€ is quite crass and quite typical of this mess of a situation 

People have the right to be worried because looking from the outside it appears itâ€™s a complete mess and there is no doubt there are some people just asking the question - a question they are entitled to ask. 

It was just people exercising their right to have a rally and ask a simple question - â€œis leaving really the right thing for the countryâ€


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I doubt there would be â€œmillionsâ€ ( believe a couple thousand attended a march Farage arranges )

And using the term â€œlosersâ€ is quite crass and quite typical of this mess of a situation

People have the right to be worried because* looking from the outside it appears itâ€™s a complete mess* and there is no doubt there are some people just asking the question - a question they are entitled to ask.

It was just people exercising their right to have a rally and ask a simple question - â€œis leaving really the right thing for the countryâ€
		
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The only mess about it is the complete and utter mess our supposed leaders have made of the negotiations.  It's not what a number of the politicians wanted and consequently they haven't put heart & soul into it and the reason why we are in the mess we are is because of their complete & utter incompetence.  Had we gone in & negotiated hard from the off we would be looking at a very different outcome in my opinion.

And you and I well know Phil that is not the question they are asking; they are asking for the vote to be overturned by the back door.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			The only mess about it is the complete and utter mess our supposed leaders have made of the negotiations.  It's not what a number of the politicians wanted and consequently they haven't put heart & soul into it and the reason why we are in the mess we are is because of their complete & utter incompetence.  Had we gone in & negotiated hard from the off we would be looking at a very different outcome in my opinion.

And you and I well know Phil that is not the question they are asking; they are asking for the vote to be overturned by the back door.
		
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Because the guys who did want us to leave then bottled it when the vote happened - Johnson being the prime suspect , he campaigned like mad to leave Europe - won and when it was time for him to stand up and make good his promises he bottled it and now continues to snipe from the behind the scenes. 

Far too many of them looking out for themselves only - this â€œcouldâ€ turn out to be the worst thing for our country and people like Johnson etc wonâ€™t care because they will still be fine - another one of my friends has just been made redundant because of the orders from EU countries stopping dead in tracks


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because the guys who did want us to leave then bottled it when the vote happened -* Johnson being the prime suspect *, he campaigned like mad to leave Europe - won and when it was time for him to stand up and make good his promises he bottled it and now continues to snipe from the behind the scenes.

Far too many of them looking out for themselves only - this â€œcouldâ€ turn out to be the worst thing for our country and people like Johnson etc wonâ€™t care because they will still be fine - another one of my friends has just been made redundant because of the orders from EU countries stopping dead in tracks
		
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So why didn't May put him in charge of the negotiations; he wants it to work according to his rhetoric, he needs it to work in order to survive politically.  Farage was never in a position to be in charge of the exit strategy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			So why didn't May put him in charge of the negotiations; he wants it to work according to his rhetoric, he needs it to work in order to survive politically.  Farage was never in a position to be in charge of the exit strategy.
		
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Johnson should have stepped up and gone for the leadership - he seems to be the worst of the worst - rich posh boy playing with peoples lives. May quite clearly hasnâ€™t got the heart or the desire for it and not one single one of them seems to want to step up and take the bull by the horns and get it sorted one way or the other 

Why ? All those Brexit Tories and I struggle to think of one who appears willing to do what is required. The vote I have no issue with regardless of which way it went - the problem for me is that we are leaving it up to what it seems are unwilling incompetent idiots to try and do whatâ€™s best for the country


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because the guys who did want us to leave then bottled it when the vote happened - Johnson being the prime suspect , he campaigned like mad to leave Europe - won and when it was time for him to stand up and make good his promises he bottled it and now continues to snipe from the behind the scenes.

Far too many of them looking out for themselves only - this â€œcouldâ€ turn out to be the worst thing for our country and people like Johnson etc wonâ€™t care because they will still be fine - another one of my friends has just been made redundant because of the orders from EU countries stopping dead in tracks
		
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I dislike Boris with a passion but he has continued to campaign long and hard for Brexit. He's spoken passionately about it, written articles about it and given up the post of Foreign Secretary because he believed it was becoming a fudge.

Yes he is an opportunist, and yes he lied about it when campaigning for it but he is one of the very few who hasn't ran away from it.

I still dislike him with a huge passion, and God help the UK if he ever becomes PM. I wouldn't trust him with a school crossing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 22, 2018)

There is a very simple solution to this Tory EU fuddle.

Move the EU border to Scotland and everyone gets what they voted for.
No Irish hard border
NI and Scotland remain in the EU and can still be part of the UK.
England and Wales achieve the political and financial isolation that they clearly desire.

The Scottish border is a third of the distance of the NI border with far fewer roads/crossing points. Much easier to manage


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## PieMan (Oct 22, 2018)

There's an even simpler solution to the Irish border issue and that's the EU working constructively with the UK to ensure there's no hard border rather than constantly saying 'no and it's a UK problem!

As has been pointed out time and time again, EU has no hard border with Norway and Switzerland (who also have trade agreements) and these all appear to work without any problems whatsoever!!

Like a number of EU negotiations I've been involved in, the Commission continuously refuses to compromise, and then at the last minute there'll be 3 or 4 days of intense negotiations, quite often running through the night, and then there'll be some kind of deal.

Makes me quite angry when people are very quick to pass all the blame on UK Government and who have clearly had absolutely no experience of seeing how the EU actually operates and how obstinate EU Commission officials are. This is supposed to be a negotiation, which means compromise and working together constructively.


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2018)

PieMan said:



			There's an even simpler solution to the Irish border issue and that's the EU working constructively with the UK to ensure there's no hard border rather than constantly saying 'no and it's a UK problem!

As has been pointed out time and time again, EU has no hard border with Norway and Switzerland (who also have trade agreements) and these all appear to work without any problems whatsoever!!

Like a number of EU negotiations I've been involved in, the Commission continuously refuses to compromise, and then at the last minute there'll be 3 or 4 days of intense negotiations, quite often running through the night, and then there'll be some kind of deal.

Makes me quite angry when people are very quick to pass all the blame on UK Government and who have clearly had absolutely no experience of seeing how the EU actually operates and how obstinate EU Commission officials are. This is supposed to be a negotiation, which means compromise and working together constructively.
		
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Wrong wrong wrong
and SILH will be along shortly to tell you why.
Unless of course he's got you on 'ignore' so he doesn't have to read the FACTUAL posts of someone who actually knows what he's talking about.


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## jp5 (Oct 22, 2018)

PieMan said:



			As has been pointed out time and time again, EU has no hard border with Norway and Switzerland (who also have trade agreements) and these all appear to work without any problems whatsoever!!
		
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Yes, no problems -- if people are willing to accept border points and queuing lorries. The Government doesn't seem keen on the former, though seems to have accepted the latter will happen.


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## IanM (Oct 22, 2018)

How odd... I drove into Switzerand miles quicker than driving into Gib!   Got a nice wave from the bloke, actually less of a queue than getting over the Severn Bridge on a  Friday!

Easy if there's a will.  But dreadfully difficult if there isnt.   And boy oh boy, there isnt.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Yes, no problems -- if people are willing to accept border points and queuing lorries. The Government doesn't seem keen on the former, though seems to have accepted the latter will happen.
		
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I queue every time I get off a flight... iâ€™ve been stopped going by ferry to and from Ireland - what frictionless border?


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## jp5 (Oct 22, 2018)

IanM said:



			How odd... I drove into Switzerand miles quicker than driving into Gib!   Got a nice wave from the bloke, actually less of a queue than getting over the Severn Bridge on a  Friday!
		
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Were you in a truck at the time?  Also Switzerland is in Schengen, which last time I checked the UK isn't planning on joining! So can't see how the NI/ROI border will be as 'frictionless' as the Swiss border, which still has considerable customs infrastructure.

To me NI staying in the customs union and rest of UK out, with checks between the two where there is a natural land border anyway, seems the more sensible option to me, -- but think the Government should just be honest with people that this is what it comes down to. Funnily enough they are dependent on the handful of MPs that wouldn't allow this, so the charade continues!


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## jp5 (Oct 22, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			what frictionless border?
		
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NI / ROI.


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## PieMan (Oct 22, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Yes, no problems -- if people are willing to accept border points and queuing lorries. The Government doesn't seem keen on the former, though seems to have accepted the latter will happen.
		
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You'll find the Government doesn't want either when it comes to trade with the EU, and has been coming up with proposals to cover both, which the EU has consistently said no to, without actually coming up with anything constructive either.

And if you look back over the last couple of years with the migrant crisis in the Med, a whole host of countries were starting to question Schengen. 

People need to remember that every country has Border Inspection Posts and there will always have to be some kind of checks on agri-food and other industrial goods (I think at the moment we check around 10% of goods entering the UK). I know for a fact that the UK Government has been working on how to improve these with regard to Brexit (both deal and no deal) to ensure that movement of good through our BIPs continue to be as frictionless as possible.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Wrong wrong wrong
and SILH will be along shortly to tell you why.
Unless of course he's got you on 'ignore' so he doesn't have to read the FACTUAL posts of someone who actually knows what he's talking about.
		
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My understanding is that there is a hard border between France and Switzerland because Switzerland is in the Single Market but not in the Custom Union - I do not know the volumes of HGVs going through the border checkpoints but the wait can be 20mins to 2hrs - and I doubt the volume of HGV traffic through ANY France/Switzerland border crossing is anything like what goes through Dover.  Bottom line for France/Switzerland border - it is a *hard border *so not acceptable to the government for EU/NI border;

On Norway - Norway is not in the Customs Union but is in the Single Market through being a member of the EEA - and has signed up to the four freedoms of the EU.  The border is efficient but not frictionless - and the main crossing of the Norway/Sweden handles about 1300 HGVs a day - about 1/10th of that going through Dover.  Bottom line for Sweden/Norway border - Norway has signed up to the four freedoms of the EU - which includes *freedom of movement of people *so not acceptable to the government for EU/NI border;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2018)

PieMan said:



			You'll find the Government doesn't want either when it comes to trade with the EU, and has been coming up with proposals to cover both, which the EU has consistently said no to, without actually coming up with anything constructive either.

And if you look back over the last couple of years with the migrant crisis in the Med, a whole host of countries were starting to question Schengen.

People need to remember that every country has Border Inspection Posts and there will always have to be some kind of checks on agri-food and other industrial goods (I think at the moment we check around 10% of goods entering the UK). I know for a fact that the UK Government has been working on how to improve these with regard to Brexit (both deal and no deal) to ensure that movement of good through our BIPs continue to be as frictionless as possible.
		
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Surely. as a Civil Servant, you recognise the behaviour!

The EU negotiating team is simply continuing the tradition of those that (seem to) have the upper hand to puit up barriers so that 'the plebs' eventually rebel against their own 'team'!

And while I might applaud the cynical approach the EU negotiators might take, I'm becoming more inclined to the UK team taking an equivalent hard line approach to the negottations. The UE has at least as much to lose as UK should a 'no deal' be the result in real terms (if not percentage ones)! And the pressure from within, from the likes of German Car makers, will very likely start to have an effect!

It will still come down to some last minute negotiation that both teams should be well used to by now!


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2018)

bobmac said:



			...
Unless of course he's got you on 'ignore' so he doesn't have to read the FACTUAL posts of someone who actually knows what he's talking about.
		
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Er....Without challenging Pieman's integrity, how do you actually know they are 'FACTUAL'? They simply happen to concur with your OPINION!


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## MegaSteve (Oct 22, 2018)

The EU negotiaters continue to endorse my view on what a wholly corrupt beaurocracy Brussels is...


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## woody69 (Oct 22, 2018)

PieMan said:



			There's an even simpler solution to the Irish border issue and that's the EU working constructively with the UK to ensure there's no hard border rather than constantly saying 'no and it's a UK problem!

As has been pointed out time and time again, EU has no hard border with Norway and Switzerland (who also have trade agreements) and these all appear to work without any problems whatsoever!!

Like a number of EU negotiations I've been involved in, the Commission continuously refuses to compromise, and then at the last minute there'll be 3 or 4 days of intense negotiations, quite often running through the night, and then there'll be some kind of deal.

Makes me quite angry when people are very quick to pass all the blame on UK Government and who have clearly had absolutely no experience of seeing how the EU actually operates and how obstinate EU Commission officials are. This is supposed to be a negotiation, which means compromise and working together constructively.
		
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It really isn't that simple between Norway and Switzerland in terms of a template for NI / ROI is it though seeing as the UK do not want to sign up to the 4 freedoms of the single market, that Norway have done.

The EU have been quite firm on protecting their 4 freedoms, so why should they waiver from that just because we are asking for something that isn't on the table and never has been.


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## PieMan (Oct 22, 2018)

woody69 said:



			It really isn't that simple between Norway and Switzerland in terms of a template for NI / ROI is it though seeing as the UK do not want to sign up to the 4 freedoms of the single market, that Norway have done.

The EU have been quite firm on protecting their 4 freedoms, so why should they waiver from that just because we are asking for something that isn't on the table and never has been.
		
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No but what we have said - right from the start - is a comprehensive FTA between the EU and UK that would benefit both parties given the importance of trade between both parties and the levels of trade between both. This is easily achievable and therefore would also solve a number of border issues in respect of trade.


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## User62651 (Oct 22, 2018)

PieMan said:



			No but what we have said - right from the start - is a comprehensive FTA between the EU and UK that would benefit both parties given the importance of trade between both parties and the levels of trade between both. This is easily achievable and therefore would also solve a number of border issues in respect of trade.
		
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FTA would be great and I hope we get one but you have to see that's cherrypicking - all the benefits and no constraints of EU - with a FTA and leaving we dont pay our membership and we dont have to abide by the club rules like freedom of movement but we get the economic perks and can trade freely elsewhere so puts us at a distinct advantage over other 27. Say next year Holland follows suit, leaves EU and says 'we want a FTA too'. Should they also get one? You can see where it's going.....so why should EU press it's own self destruct button and give up on European Unity just to appease 'cake and eat it' Brits?
The 27 other member states are towing the EU line, there doesn't seem to be much dissent over their United position, it's easy to just blame Juncker or Tusk or the faceless EU but the EU needs approval from member states on it's Brexit position. In that regard they aren't making it deliberately difficult for us to leave, but it is what it is in terms of difficulty. Norway and Switzerland both accept freedom of movement, I doubt Brexiteers would. Very frustrating all round but it's 27 v 1, not 1 v 1.


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## jp5 (Oct 22, 2018)

Great saying that a free trade deal is achievable and worthwhile, but just how long would it take to negotiate? We'd also have to find some negotiators from somewhere...

Meanwhile, what happens from 31st March next year?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Er....Without challenging Pieman's integrity, how do you actually know they are 'FACTUAL'? They simply happen to concur with your OPINION!
		
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And I have responded with what I hope are facts abut the EU/Switzerland and EU/Norway borders and what would seem to make them unacceptable model solutions for the EU/NI border.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			The EU negotiaters continue to endorse my view on what a wholly corrupt beaurocracy Brussels is...
		
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In that they continue to negotiate for the benefit of the EU27 countries to whom they are accountable and if mutual benefit can be found for the UK then all the better?  Because if EU27 national leaders do not like what the EU negotiators come up with they won't be very keen to endorse it.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			FTA would be great and I hope we get one but you have to see that's cherrypicking - all the benefits and no constraints of EU - with a FTA and leaving we dont pay our membership and we dont have to abide by the club rules like freedom of movement but we get the economic perks and can trade freely elsewhere so puts us at a distinct advantage over other 27. Say next year Holland follows suit, leaves EU and says 'we want a FTA too'. Should they also get one? You can see where it's going.....so why should EU press it's own self destruct button and give up on European Unity just to appease 'cake and eat it' Brits?
The 27 other member states are towing the EU line, there doesn't seem to be much dissent over their United position, it's easy to just blame Juncker or Tusk or the faceless EU but the EU needs approval from member states on it's Brexit position. In that regard they aren't making it deliberately difficult for us to leave, but it is what it is in terms of difficulty. Norway and Switzerland both accept freedom of movement, I doubt Brexiteers would. Very frustrating all round but it's 27 v 1, not 1 v 1.
		
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There are 34 countries outside of Europe with FTAâ€™s with Europe. There are a whole host of countries currently negotiating FTAâ€™s with Europe.

And the common theme with virtually every single one? No signing up to the 4 founding principles of the EU.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In that they continue to negotiate for the benefit of the EU27 countries to whom they are accountable and if mutual benefit can be found for the UK then all the better?  Because if EU27 national leaders do not like what the EU negotiators come up with they won't be very keen to endorse it.
		
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Some of the EU27 National leaders are already unhappy with the negotiations. Spain has already agreed the details of the relationship with the U.K. over Gibraltar. And very early this year they told Tusk what they intended to do re holiday makers from the U.K. accessing Spain.

Living outside the U.K. I get the EU slant. Donâ€™t think they are united because they are not.


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## IanM (Oct 22, 2018)

Don't try presenting balance and logic.... they wont listen.


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## woody69 (Oct 22, 2018)

IanM said:



			Don't try presenting balance and logic.... they wont listen.
		
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The irony is strong with this one...


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## PieMan (Oct 22, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			FTA would be great and I hope we get one but you have to see that's cherrypicking - all the benefits and no constraints of EU - with a FTA and leaving we dont pay our membership and we dont have to abide by the club rules like freedom of movement but we get the economic perks and can trade freely elsewhere so puts us at a distinct advantage over other 27. Say next year Holland follows suit, leaves EU and says 'we want a FTA too'. Should they also get one? You can see where it's going.....so why should EU press it's own self destruct button and give up on European Unity just to appease 'cake and eat it' Brits?
The 27 other member states are towing the EU line, there doesn't seem to be much dissent over their United position, it's easy to just blame Juncker or Tusk or the faceless EU but the EU needs approval from member states on it's Brexit position. In that regard they aren't making it deliberately difficult for us to leave, but it is what it is in terms of difficulty. Norway and Switzerland both accept freedom of movement, I doubt Brexiteers would. Very frustrating all round but it's 27 v 1, not 1 v 1.
		
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Hobbit has already covered this point. The whole point of FTAs are that they benefit both parties with regard to trade. The EU has numerous FTAs and other preferential trade agreements so absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be one with the UK given the importance of UK market, goods and services to a number of EU members states; and vice versa. 



jp5 said:



			Great saying that a free trade deal is achievable and worthwhile, but just how long would it take to negotiate? We'd also have to find some negotiators from somewhere...

Meanwhile, what happens from 31st March next year?
		
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The UK has negotiators - they've been negotiating with EU Commission officials for some time. To say that we haven't is just not correct. 

Basically the length of time an FTA takes to negotiate depends on the collective will of both parties to achieve one. There are a number of reasons why they appear to take time, for example EU FTAs have to ratified by each MS (who in some cases have more than one institutional body who are also required to do so - the Wallonian Government blocking CETA is an example); and what they actually cover and include. I've spoken to a colleague working in DIT, who used to work for the Australian Government on their trade deals, and he said that the US/Australia trade deal took 9 months to complete - from first discussions to signing.

And as a measure of good faith, whilst negotiations are taking place, I believe that both parties can offer preferential arrangements in relation to trade.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2018)

I see some Brexit supporting Tory MP's are talking about knifing and hanging our Prime Minister.
Dreadful language from people who should know a great deal better.
I hope their constituents take notice for the next election


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## Mudball (Oct 23, 2018)

I finally found a good result from Brexit.. Looking to buy some Duty Free alcohol at Heathrow yesterday... went something like this.

Me: Flying to EU, can I buy & pick up on the way back
Duty Free Guy:  Sure.. you can pick up as much as you like.  Where are you flying to?
Me: Switzerland
DFG:  Sorry that offer is only for EU flights.. so does not apply as Switzerland is outside the EU.  So you cant buy & pick up later.
Me:  Ok.  No worries, I will skip
DFG:  Donâ€™t worry, after next year when we are outside the EU, all this will be possible!! 

So looking fwd to buying all the alcohol & ciggis at Heathrowâ€¦ Let the good times roll in


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Wrong wrong wrong
and SILH will be along shortly to tell you why.
Unless of course he's got you on 'ignore' so he doesn't have to read the FACTUAL posts of someone who actually knows what he's talking about.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I have responded with what I hope are facts abut the EU/Switzerland and EU/Norway borders and what would seem to make them unacceptable model solutions for the EU/NI border.
		
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Not entirely 'wrong. wriong, wrong', but certainly a tad misleading wrt Norway/Switzerland - and from someone who, given his apparent position, should really know better!


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Hobbit has already covered this point. The whole point of FTAs are that they benefit both parties with regard to trade. The EU has numerous FTAs and other preferential trade agreements so absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be one with the UK given the importance of UK market, goods and services to a number of EU members states; and vice versa.

The UK has negotiators - they've been negotiating with EU Commission officials for some time. To say that we haven't is just not correct.

Basically the length of time an FTA takes to negotiate depends on the collective will of both parties to achieve one. There are a number of reasons why they appear to take time, for example EU FTAs have to ratified by each MS (who in some cases have more than one institutional body who are also required to do so - the Wallonian Government blocking CETA is an example); and what they actually cover and include. I've spoken to a colleague working in DIT, who used to work for the Australian Government on their trade deals, and he said that the US/Australia trade deal took 9 months to complete - from first discussions to signing.

And as a measure of good faith, whilst negotiations are taking place, I believe that both parties can offer preferential arrangements in relation to trade.
		
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This would be the 'ideal' scenario - and has been May's stated objective for the entire negotiating period.

However, it seems to me that the EU is witholding this 'mutually beneficial' approach! While it is actually 'more beneficial' to the EU in pure Â£/Euro value, it's considerably less as a percentage of total exports/imports for the EU than the UK. For that reason, the EU probably believe it's negotiating from a significantly stronger position! And, I believe, certain parts of the EU would be quite happy to reduce the dominance of London in the Financial Services area!

I'm pretty certain any UK FTA deal, whatever it turns out to be, will also have to be ratified as a 'mixed' agreement, so ratification by every member state will be required. However, the EU can apply the FTA deal provisionally. These are standard EU pocedures.


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## PieMan (Oct 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Not entirely 'wrong. wriong, wrong', but certainly a tad misleading wrt Norway/Switzerland - and from someone who, given his apparent position, should really know better!
		
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Sorry - is that one aimed at me? If so I was just trying to highlight that movement of goods between EU and non-EU countries happens every day and doesn't necessarily mean lengthy delays or problems, without getting into the complexities of the Norway/Switzerland models.


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## User62651 (Oct 23, 2018)

Mudball said:



			I finally found a good result from Brexit.. Looking to buy some Duty Free alcohol at Heathrow yesterday... went something like this.

Me: Flying to EU, can I buy & pick up on the way back
Duty Free Guy:  Sure.. you can pick up as much as you like.  Where are you flying to?
Me: Switzerland
DFG:  Sorry that offer is only for EU flights.. so does not apply as Switzerland is outside the EU.  So you cant buy & pick up later.
Me:  Ok.  No worries, I will skip
DFG:  Donâ€™t worry, after next year when we are outside the EU, all this will be possible!!

So looking fwd to buying all the alcohol & ciggis at Heathrowâ€¦ *Let the good times roll in*

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Hmmm...like liver disease and lung cancer? You might get a blue passport too! 
Anyway any savings you may make on fags and booze duty will likely be negated by extra costs on flights once we're out, when flying to EU countries at least.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Sorry - is that one aimed at me? If so I was just trying to highlight that movement of goods between EU and non-EU countries happens every day and doesn't necessarily mean lengthy delays or problems, without getting into the complexities of the Norway/Switzerland models.
		
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Er... Yes! Unfortunately (hopefully not maliciously) by 'not getting into the complexities' - aka explaining why - significant info, that SILH rightly pointed out, was 'hidden'! While the forum is not a law court, the concept of 'The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth' would seem an important phrase when posting 'facts'. That phrase doesn't apply to opinion of course, but, for someone who seems to be at the 'bleeding edge', it would be good to know which 'style' you are posting at any point. Nothing personal btw!


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## PieMan (Oct 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Er... Yes! Unfortunately (hopefully not maliciously) by 'not getting into the complexities' - aka explaining why - significant info, that SILH rightly pointed out, was 'hidden'! While the forum is not a law court, the concept of 'The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth' would seem an important phrase when posting 'facts'. That phrase doesn't apply to opinion of course, but, for someone who seems to be at the 'bleeding edge', it would be good to know which 'style' you are posting at any point. Nothing personal btw!
		
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Ah, ok. No problem. But I haven't posted anything that is not untrue. As I said, was just trying to highlight that certain aspects of trade between countries aren't as difficult as some want to make out, without having to go into all the minute detail. Think Hobbit and others who have been at the sharp end of import/export situations have explained this previously.

Anyway I think I've had enough of this thread now as trying to put across a balanced perspective clearly doesn't work.

And besides, being at the 'bleeding edge' means that there is a lot I'd love to say, but for obvious reasons I cannot.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Not entirely 'wrong. wriong, wrong', but certainly a tad misleading wrt Norway/Switzerland - and from someone who, given his apparent position, should really know better!
		
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I took as my source the BBC News article I linked to - not sure how I misrepresented it.  Apologies to the BBC if I did and to all here who bothered to read it.  Must go check what I got wrong.

Meanwhile in the real world - The CEO of James Dyson's businesses (Jim Rowan) announces that Dyson will be manufacturing their new electric car in Singapore - that's the same massive Brexit-supporting Sir James Dyson - promoter of all things British manufacturing and building new deals across the world when out of the EU.

_"...in the memo to staff, Rowan said the decision to choose Singapore was â€œcomplex, based on supply chains, access to markets, and the availability of the expertise that will help us achieve our ambitionsâ€._

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ars-in-singapore-with-launch-planned-for-2021

So a great big vote of confidence in Britain.  And as an aside - pure coincidence of course that Singapore has just signed a significant framework trade agreement with the EU (been negotiating it since 2010)

_...The EU will in turn drop tariffs on 84% of Singaporeâ€™ products with reductions of the remaining 16% within three to five years, giving the city-stateâ€™s exports a competitive boost.  _

http://www.atimes.com/article/singapore-and-the-eu-fly-the-flag-of-free-trade/

Now that would be handy for getting Dyson's cars into the EU.

Pure coincidence of course and nothing to do with Dyson maybe hedging a wee bit against the impact of a _No Deal_ outcome.


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## Mudball (Oct 23, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Hmmm...like liver disease and lung cancer? You might get a blue passport too!
Anyway any savings you may make on fags and booze duty will likely be negated by extra costs on flights once we're out, when flying to EU countries at least.
		
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Dont have to worry 2 much about liver and lung diseases... remember the NHS will have 350m extra..  so funding coming at the right time.  I told you Brexit has a lot of upsides.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 23, 2018)

Dyson has all of his mfr out in that region. Malaysia is his main plant I believe but he has a big R & D in Singapore already. He dumped Britain for mfr some time ago, long before Brexit was even an idea.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Dyson has all of his mfr out in that region. Malaysia is his main plant I believe but he has a big R & D in Singapore already. He dumped Britain for mfr some time ago, long before Brexit was even an idea.
		
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For his sort of products, that part of the world is the obvious place for manufacturing! I'm disappointed he's also getting his electric cars manufactured there, but it's not altogether surprising.

I don't believe it has anything to do with Brexit though - simply sensible business!


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I took as my source the BBC News article I linked to - not sure how I misrepresented it.  Apologies to the BBC if I did and to all here who bothered to read it.  Must go check what I got wrong.
...
		
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See post 1199 (er how many? !!!)


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## IanM (Oct 23, 2018)

So, Italy has had it's budget rejected.... having waived the right to run their own country and lost their own currency, I guess they made that choice.  Greece is in a worse mess, so watch this space.

Of course, neither met the crtieria to join the single currency but were allowed in knowing what would happen... fancy trying to run those countires on _German_ exhange and interest rates.  

Anyone spot any "loss of control?"


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## Hobbit (Oct 23, 2018)

IanM said:



			So, Italy has had it's budget rejected.... having waived the right to run their own country and lost their own currency, I guess they made that choice.  Greece is in a worse mess, so watch this space.

Of course, neither met the crtieria to join the single currency but were allowed in knowing what would happen... fancy trying to run those countires on _German_ exhange and interest rates.  

Anyone spot any "loss of control?"   

Click to expand...

The EU says the proposed budget would potentially see a rise in its deficit to 2.4%. The budget target is under 2%. The EU have said they won't accept that even though the permitted amount under the rules is no more than 3%.

The EU feel that as they're servicing a debt of 131% of national output they want to impose a lower limit on Italy.

As was announced last year, the EU wants a chancellor responsible for agreeing national budgets. Looks like its happened without it ever being accepted by the EU28.


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## woody69 (Oct 23, 2018)

IanM said:



			So, Italy has had it's budget rejected.... having waived the right to run their own country and lost their own currency, I guess they made that choice.  Greece is in a worse mess, so watch this space.

Of course, neither met the crtieria to join the single currency but were allowed in knowing what would happen... fancy trying to run those countires on _German_ exhange and interest rates.  

Anyone spot any "loss of control?"   

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Why is this relevant?


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## IanM (Oct 24, 2018)

It is relevant as the Remain Campaign staunchly profess that being in the EU doesnt not impact national soverignty or control over your internal affairs.... this demonstrates cleary that it does.


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## drdel (Oct 24, 2018)

IanM said:



			It is relevant as the Remain Campaign staunchly profess that being in the EU doesnt not impact national soverignty or control over your internal affairs.... this demonstrates cleary that it does.
		
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Logic has long left the EU supporter's thinking.

It's the same with Scotland which wants to stop Parliament's control yet would accept EU dominance .


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## Cherry13 (Oct 24, 2018)

IanM said:



			It is relevant as the Remain Campaign staunchly profess that being in the EU doesnt not impact national soverignty or control over your internal affairs.... this demonstrates cleary that it does.
		
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Havenâ€™t they lost this control because they adopted the euro currency?


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## IanM (Oct 24, 2018)

Cherry13 said:



			Havenâ€™t they lost this control because they adopted the euro currency?
		
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Yes......and in in addition, the "NATIONAL" spending plans are now under the control of Brussels.  (without member states agreeing to it) 

But I guess that's why Federalists wish to keep the talk on "trade" rather than this... but they will divert occassionally to call dissenters "racist!"


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## woody69 (Oct 24, 2018)

IanM said:



			It is relevant as the Remain Campaign staunchly profess that being in the EU doesnt not impact national soverignty or control over your internal affairs.... this demonstrates cleary that it does.
		
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I'm sorry, but it's not really relevant at all to the UK and Brexit and I believe you are conflating two distinct ideas.

Italy agreed to abide by a common set of rules. If Italy wants to stay in the Eurozone and the EU then it has to abide by the common rules agreed by those bodies. It is the same for any international treaty or organisation. They signed up to the Euro, so them the breaks.

As the UK did not sign up to the Euro, the impact of those rules on our sovereignty is irrelevant. 

If you are able to provide me with an example where the EU has affected our sovereignty that is relevant, I would be interested to learn more.


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## IanM (Oct 24, 2018)

Well, you ignored the actual point I raised... so will you accept any others?  (the threaholds are even listed...and they certainly didnt sign up to what they have had put upon them)

Eg... what do you know about the workings of the IMO?  There's a freebie


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## woody69 (Oct 24, 2018)

IanM said:



			Well, you ignored the actual point I raised... so will you accept any others...

Eg... what do you know about the workings of the IMO?
		
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Apologies, but how did I ignore the point you raised? You said Remainers believe the EU does not impact national sovereignty or control a members internal affairs, by providing an example where they do, but never would for the UK, so it's fairly irrelevant as a reason for Brexit. I wanted to hear an example where it is relevant to the UK and so important it is worth giving up our membership over. I don't know who these remainers are that make such claims though because in any trade deal you have to give up an element of sovereignty, as you have to abide by the agreement and terms.

With regards to the IMO, if you are talking about the Common Fisheries Policy, then yes I agree reform on that is required but ultimately would agree with papers that have suggest it has helped, not harmed UK fisheries as an example in this article - https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-e...s-policy-has-helped-not-harmed-uk-fisheries-0


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## IanM (Oct 24, 2018)

1) You ignored the point about Italy not being allowed to set its own buget.  Pretty fundamantal right of an indendent country.  The EU ignored entry conditions when it suited them, now they are imposing ratios (which Italy havent broken) over spending... I wonder if Italy will accept it.  Do you think a UK post cancelation of Brexit will be permitted to stay outside the single currency? 

2) No, the IMO has nothing to do with Fisheries Policy, but test you opinion in a fishing community and you'd have a fun conversation!  Clue.(apoligies clue removed in case I am in breach of something!) 

Remain keep banging on about all the "bad laws" the nasty Tories will pass when we leave the EU, but then insist that no impostion on our laws has happened when the Soverignty discussion comes up.  Come on chaps, which is it?  Cant be both?

Couple of easy ones... they have controls over ou taxation, trade deals and the fact that EU law superceeds UK where confict exists might be a smidge of an imposition!

There are plenty more for later....


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2018)

woody69 said:



			...
If you are able to provide me with an example where the EU has affected our sovereignty that is relevant, I would be interested to learn more.
		
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EVERY ECJ ruling that has gone against the UK Government!

Now, I'm not saying I believe those rulings were wrong - in fact, I believe all those I know about were 'correct' decisions! But they were all examples where EU law overides UK law (and you can replace 'law' with, the more emotional, 'sovereignity' if you wish!).

The UK government's ham-fisted, arrogant approach to getting rid of Abu Hamza (and, likewise, attempts to deport his family) are classic examples! And May was at the heart of this action!


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			ham-fisted, arrogant approach to getting rid of Abu Hamza!
		
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Having ham and fisted in the same sentence as Abu Hamzal - now that is funny.


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## woody69 (Oct 25, 2018)

IanM said:



			1) You ignored the point about Italy not being allowed to set its own buget.  Pretty fundamantal right of an indendent country.  The EU ignored entry conditions when it suited them, now they are imposing ratios (which Italy havent broken) over spending... I wonder if Italy will accept it.  Do you think a UK post cancelation of Brexit will be permitted to stay outside the single currency?

2) No, the IMO has nothing to do with Fisheries Policy, but test you opinion in a fishing community and you'd have a fun conversation!  Clue.(apoligies clue removed in case I am in breach of something!)

Remain keep banging on about all the "bad laws" the nasty Tories will pass when we leave the EU, but then insist that no impostion on our laws has happened when the Soverignty discussion comes up.  Come on chaps, which is it?  Cant be both?

Couple of easy ones... they have controls over ou taxation, trade deals and the fact that EU law superceeds UK where confict exists might be a smidge of an imposition!

There are plenty more for later....
		
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Italy can set their own budget, it just has to be fiscally responsible and not destabilise the eurozone.

The Tories can set any rules they like, so can any UK Government as Parliament is sovereign but we choose to write in EU law and when we choose not to, we can take it to court. 

They set minimums on taxation, each country chooses their own, which is why the UK and Eire have different VAT rates as an example.

Tell me more about the IMO if it doesn't relate to fisheries policy.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Italy can set their own budget, it just has to be fiscally responsible and not destabilise the eurozone.

The Tories can set any rules they like, so can any UK Government as Parliament is sovereign but we choose to write in EU law and when we choose not to, we can take it to court.

They set minimums on taxation, each country chooses their own, which is why the UK and Eire have different VAT rates as an example.

Tell me more about the IMO if it doesn't relate to fisheries policy.
		
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In the last 8 years the ECJ has ruled against HMRC to the tune of over Â£50bn worth of VAT and Corporation tax the UK govt has sought to claw back from multinational companies.

The UK has lost 77% of court cases with the EU in the last 40 years. A high figure, yes but its worth looking at what makes up those numbers and, specifically the win/loss rate since 2010. 40 years ago it was a 50/50 win rate. More recently its over 80% win rate for the EU. Is the UK justice system really that "unjust" that over 80% of its rulings are wrong? Two, non-financial, overrulings are just frightening - on two separate occasions a known terrorist, banned from entry into the UK, has had that ban overturned by the EU because he has an EU passport.

There's oodles of examples out there that show how often the ECJ overrules all the member states over financial issues. For example, VAT on certain items. The UK has seen a number of items added to the VAT list because it was deemed to have an unfair advantage in the manufacturing costs of those items.

Whilst there is a fairness is saying all taxes should be aligned across the EU, if you're a member, to say that the UK is free to set all its taxation is naive. Technically it can set its own rate but practically it can't because it will end up in court. You only have to look at the number of times the Irish govt has been in court over corporation tax, and the fines that have been levied against them, to realise a country can't just set tax rates without considering where those rates fit in with the rest of the EU.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 25, 2018)

IanM said:



			So, Italy has had it's budget rejected.... having waived the right to run their own country and lost their own currency, I guess they made that choice.  Greece is in a worse mess, so watch this space.

Of course, neither met the crtieria to join the single currency but were allowed in knowing what would happen... fancy trying to run those countires on _German_ exhange and interest rates.  

Anyone spot any "loss of control?"   

Click to expand...

Ironically in Feb this year, the Independant reported that the biggest breaker of EU rules was Germany. ðŸ˜³ That staunch supporter of the EU. Guess what, France wasn't far behind them either. With good old UK in 14th place behaving impeccably.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Ironically in Feb this year, the Independant reported that the biggest breaker of EU rules was Germany. ðŸ˜³ That staunch supporter of the EU. Guess what, France wasn't far behind them either. With good old UK in 14th place behaving impeccably.
		
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And the biggest breaker of EU budgetary rules? France. Also, its worth looking at how many times France has broken the CAP rules, or that they are now proposing an even bigger break of those rules.


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## IanM (Oct 25, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Italy can set their own budget, it just has to be fiscally responsible and not destabilise the eurozone.

The Tories can set any rules they like, so can any UK Government as Parliament is sovereign but we choose to write in EU law and when we choose not to, we can take it to court.

*They set minimums on taxation*, (_*so they EU is setting taxation!*_) each country chooses their own, which is why the UK and Eire have different VAT rates as an example.

Tell me more about the IMO if it doesn't relate to fisheries policy.
		
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*Wrong*.  Italy has just had it's buget rejected by the EU.  So it clearly cant set it's own.  (great article about it in the times this week)
*Wrong.* VAT cannot be set lower than the EU level.... so we are not free to chose.  (careful, the launguage on the BBC site on this is deliberately oblique on this point)
International Maritime Organisation..... what is you preoccupation with fisheries when it covers much much more than that? Keep Googling though!

(Edit: apoligies if this sounded blunt...no offense intended... you correctly argue that certain things are part of being part of a collective, but the point was "loss of control that you normally associate with Statehood.)


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## woody69 (Oct 25, 2018)

IanM said:



*Wrong*.  Italy has just had it's buget rejected by the EU.  So it clearly cant set it's own.  (great article about it in the times this week)
*Wrong.* VAT cannot be set lower than the EU level.... so we are not free to chose.  (careful, the launguage on the BBC site on this is deliberately oblique on this point)
International Maritime Organisation..... what is you preoccupation with fisheries when it covers much much more than that? Keep Googling though!

(Edit: apoligies if this sounded blunt...no offense intended... you correctly argue that certain things are part of being part of a collective, but the point was "loss of control that you normally associate with Statehood.)
		
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I feel like we are going around in circles a little. Italy can set its own budget AS LONG AS it doesn't destabilise the Eurozone and is fiscally responsible. That's the rules of the club they are in when they signed up to the Euro. If your issue is a loss of member states sovereignty because they can't simply do what they like without repercussions across the rest of the EU, then yes, I agree with you, but that's a good thing. Italy retain the sovereignty to leave the Euro and scrap EU rules whenever they like. But if they want to stay in the club, then they have to abide by club rules. Some were voted in to leave the Eurozone and as soon as they had access to power that talk quietened down because the reality is the Eurozone membership is a net benefit to the country.

I never said VAT can be set lower than the EU Level, but as a member of the club, they have set the minimum and we abide by it. I guess the difference between your thoughts and mine is you want the flexibility for the UK to do what its wants (we got our sovereignty back!), where as I am happy to play by the rules of the club (due to the many other benefits it brings) and if a rule is introduced I don't agree with, be in the club to help get it amended. Loss of sovereignty was never a real concern of mine when I was deciding whether to vote remain or leave.

You asked me what I know about the IMO. I said, not a lot other than a few bits around the fisheries policy. I was wistfully hoping you would perhaps expand upon your point and why you asked me about it.


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## adam6177 (Oct 25, 2018)

woody69 said:



			I feel like we are going around in circles a little.
		
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Summed up the brexit threads in 11 words.  

I cant wait for it to all be over so we can stop hearing about it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			Summed up the brexit threads in 11 words.  

I cant wait for it to all be over so we can stop hearing about it.
		
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Me too - would love Brexit just to finish right now - by finish of course I mean cancelled 

For me it is just too important to be ignored and I believe that we should all be trying to understand as best we can what the risks and issues will be - as well as the benefits.  All very well sticking our heads in the sand wishing it would be over but that way risks us walking blindfolded to we do not know what - and that surely is never sensible.  

No matter what deal we get with the EU it will be worse than we have at the moment and a No Deal will be very bad - almost nobody serious is saying these days that No Deal will be great or even as good as things are at the moment (see Rees-Mogg and 50yrs before benefits come through).  

That said, and no matter what the outcome - no matter how bad - I am in the fortunate position that I won't be significantly affected - and neither (financially) will be our children - though I believe that their quality of life and life opportunities may well be poorer than ours.  But the same cannot be said of the poorer and most vulnerable of society.  Wish Brexit away if you will but by ignoring what might be the outcome I feel we ignore  our wider social responsibility to each other.

I could just not bother pushing against this (for me) insane and utterly reckless decision.  But I won't.  And that's just how I feel.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Me too - would love Brexit just to finish right now - by finish of course I mean cancelled 

For me it is just too important to be ignored and I believe that we should all be trying to understand as best we can what the risks and issues will be - as well as the benefits.  All very well sticking our heads in the sand wishing it would be over but that way risks us walking blindfolded to we do not know what - and that surely is never sensible. 

No matter what deal we get with the EU it will be worse than we have at the moment and a No Deal will be very bad - almost nobody serious is saying these days that No Deal will be great or even as good as things are at the moment (see Rees-Mogg and 50yrs before benefits come through). 

That said, and no matter what the outcome - no matter how bad - I am in the fortunate position that I won't be significantly affected - and neither (financially) will be our children - though I believe that their quality of life and life opportunities may well be poorer than ours.  But the same cannot be said of the poorer and most vulnerable of society.  Wish Brexit away if you will but by ignoring what might be the outcome I feel we ignore  our wider social responsibility to each other.

I could just not bother pushing against this (for me) insane and utterly reckless decision.  But I won't.  And that's just how I feel.
		
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Never heard any of that a dozen times before. Cheers SILH.


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			In the last 8 years the ECJ has ruled against HMRC to the tune of over Â£50bn worth of VAT and Corporation tax the UK govt has sought to claw back from multinational companies.

The UK has lost 77% of court cases with the EU in the last 40 years. A high figure, yes but its worth looking at what makes up those numbers and, specifically the win/loss rate since 2010. 40 years ago it was a 50/50 win rate. More recently its over 80% win rate for the EU. Is the UK justice system really that "unjust" that over 80% of its rulings are wrong? Two, non-financial, overrulings are just frightening - on two separate occasions a known terrorist, banned from entry into the UK, has had that ban overturned by the EU because he has an EU passport.

There's oodles of examples out there that show how often the ECJ overrules all the member states over financial issues. For example, VAT on certain items. The UK has seen a number of items added to the VAT list because it was deemed to have an unfair advantage in the manufacturing costs of those items.

Whilst there is a fairness is saying all taxes should be aligned across the EU, if you're a member, to say that the UK is free to set all its taxation is naive. Technically it can set its own rate but practically it can't because it will end up in court. You only have to look at the number of times the Irish govt has been in court over corporation tax, and the fines that have been levied against them, to realise a country can't just set tax rates without considering where those rates fit in with the rest of the EU.
		
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Just add...

It might be a coincidence, of course, but I think Germany has rarely been on the wrong end of an ECJ ruling, It doesn't seem to get hauled over the coals on its (protectionist) industrial policies and it has managed to build itself a surplus of over 800tn Euros - all at a time when many other members were facing whopping debts and receiving ECB loans/grants to spend mainly on German made 'industrial' products.  

I think this is the level playing field the EU champions.


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## Mudball (Oct 25, 2018)

.. well all the corporate tax wrangling to one side, our special Orange friend changed the US tax laws to ensure that Americans cos repatriate their overseas profit this year.  So on one sweep Apple may no longer prop up Ireland.


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## jp5 (Oct 26, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			Summed up the brexit threads in 11 words.  

I cant wait for it to all be over so we can stop hearing about it.
		
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You'll be waiting a long time then! Brexit will be the prism everything is viewed through for decades to come.


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## bobmac (Oct 26, 2018)

jp5 said:



			You'll be waiting a long time then! Brexit will be the prism everything is viewed through for decades to come.
		
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And will be blamed for everything for decades to come


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 26, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Never heard any of that a dozen times before. Cheers SILH.
		
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And things have only deteriorated meanwhiles - but no problems


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## jp5 (Oct 26, 2018)

bobmac said:



			And will be blamed for everything for decades to come
		
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Some things will be attributable to Brexit, of course. Good or bad.


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## adam6177 (Oct 26, 2018)

jp5 said:



			You'll be waiting a long time then! Brexit will be the prism everything is viewed through for decades to come.
		
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yes, I fear you're right.



bobmac said:



			And will be blamed for everything for decades to come
		
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Of course, I expect nothing less based on how the last 2 years have been.  But I wonder if all the successes will also be attributed to brexit....I suspect not many.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2018)

All very nice that Budget - pity it will have to be chucked out of the window if we end up with _No Deal_ and Hammond calls an Emergency Budget.

And just love how leading Brexit ministers (Hancock being but one) talk up the economy and how it is growing etc. and tell us *how important it is to maintain the solid basis of our economy today *- when Brexit will immediately undermine the basis of our economy as it has been built upon a foundation of the UK being in the EU.

Great.  But there you go.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2018)

The new Brexit 50p designs have been leaked;




That must be SILH on the left!!


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## drdel (Oct 29, 2018)

Merkel's transition and exiting politics in a few years and the consequential internal focus of Germany will not be good for the EU and/or Brexit.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'd do just exactly what I want having been the recipient of all sorts of scorn and vitriol over the last two years on this.

But OK - all is well.  All is tickety-boo.  Today's meeting at Chequers is to rubber stamp the plan that has been in place and followed for the last 2 years

One day someone will admit that there never was a plan. * Clearly those here are not ready to make that admission* - rather deflection and counter charge remains the order of the day.
		
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Clearly you've got no idea what people on here think because you don't engage in reasoned debate.  As for the scorn and vitriol, you've handed out plenty; just as you sow you shall reap.

Frankly your attitude on here suggests you're massively on the wind up.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 29, 2018)

bobmac said:



			And will be blamed for everything for decades to come
		
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Yep. Anything bad will be because of Brexit and anything good will be dismissed as it could've been better if we had still been in the EU.


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			- when Brexit will immediately undermine the basis of our economy
		
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You know this as fact or did your mate in the pub tell you.

Please provide evidence to support your post ðŸ¤”


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## bluewolf (Oct 29, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yep. Anything bad will be because of Brexit and anything good will be dismissed as it could've been better if we had still been in the EU.
		
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By who? The Leavers are the majority remember!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 29, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			By who? The Leavers are the majority remember!
		
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SiLH mainly, I suspect. And also plenty of other die hard Remainers.


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## bluewolf (Oct 29, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			SiLH mainly, I suspect. And also plenty of other die hard Remainers.
		
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What does it matter if the minority moan? People always moan. People love moaning. It's the only constant in life other than death and taxes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 29, 2018)

You know this emergency budget that Mr Hammond says he will be forced to introduce in the event of a blind/no Brexit.

How much better off do you think we will all be as a result of it ?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 29, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All very nice that Budget - pity it will have to be chucked out of the window if we end up with _No Deal_ and Hammond calls an Emergency Budget.

And just love how leading Brexit ministers (Hancock being but one) talk up the economy and how it is growing etc. and tell us *how important it is to maintain the solid basis of our economy today *- when Brexit will immediately undermine the basis of our economy as it has been built upon a foundation of the UK being in the EU.

Great.  But there you go.
		
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Interesting that the budget was so positive and based around an improvement in our economic forecast. Who do you think would gain from a no deal Brexit? Nobody would.....so do you seriously think either us or the EU will allow it to get to that stage? Quite simply, the EU do not want us to leave so they are playing silly buggers but as we get closer to March 2019 they will start to play ball to ensure the best possible outcome all round.


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## ger147 (Oct 29, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You know this emergency budget that Mr Hammond says he will be forced to introduce in the event of a blind/no Brexit.

How much better off do you think we will all be as a result of it ?
		
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Perhaps we could look to recent history for some clues, just a few short years ago and the emergency budget that would be needed if the referendum vote was to Leave...

In my case, I'm getting royally shafted following the budget with or without Brexit.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You know this emergency budget that Mr Hammond says he will be forced to introduce in the event of a blind/no Brexit.

How much better off do you think we will all be as a result of it ?
		
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The last time I remember as many experts predicting a complete meltdown of our way of life, from which we would never recover, was the Y2K bug.

Remind us what happened then?


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## IanM (Oct 30, 2018)

Y2K?  Alll the IT Division bought bigger houses and new cars!!


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## woody69 (Oct 30, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			The last time I remember as many experts predicting a complete meltdown of our way of life, from which we would never recover, was the Y2K bug.

Remind us what happened then? 

Click to expand...

You know why there wasn't a problem with the Y2K bug right? It wasn't because there wasn't a problem. It was because careful planning and important changes/testing were made that prevented it being a problem. It wasn't just all made up.


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## woody69 (Oct 30, 2018)

Interesting study here by the Policy Institute at Kingâ€™s College London, in partnership with Ipsos MORI and UK in a Changing Europe that shows significant mis-perceptions on some key facts around Brexit.

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/policy-institute/publications/Brexit-misperceptions.pdf


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## Kellfire (Oct 30, 2018)

So


woody69 said:



			Interesting study here by the Policy Institute at Kingâ€™s College London, in partnership with Ipsos MORI and UK in a Changing Europe that shows significant mis-perceptions on some key facts around Brexit.

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/policy-institute/publications/Brexit-misperceptions.pdf

Click to expand...

So leavers are basically less educated racists. Shock!


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## Fade and Die (Oct 30, 2018)

woody69 said:



			You know why there wasn't a problem with the Y2K bug right? It wasn't because there wasn't a problem. It was because careful planning and important changes/testing were made that prevented it being a problem. It wasn't just all made up.
		
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Countries such as Italy, Russia and South Korea that had done little to prepare for Y2K had no more technological problems than those countries like the UK and the US that had spent millions to prevent the problem. Thatâ€™s why itâ€™s dismissed as a hoax.


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## User62651 (Oct 30, 2018)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news...ying-to-steal-your-last-potato-20181029178799
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...y-smug-and-extremely-terrified-20181026178733
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...sa-may-is-still-prime-minister-20181018178444


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## IanM (Oct 30, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Interesting study here by the Policy Institute at Kingâ€™s College London, in partnership with Ipsos MORI and UK in a Changing Europe that shows significant mis-perceptions on some key facts around Brexit.

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/policy-institute/publications/Brexit-misperceptions.pdf

Click to expand...

Well as Econ and Politics grad with non UK heritage, I'd say the questions are interestingly framed..... but that makes me a poorly educated racist.  (apparently)  

And Y2K wasnt a hoax, but it was sure as hell overstated!  I was working in a major organisation at the time, and at the end of January 2000, the IT Director made a presentation to the board about how he'd saved the organisation fron disaster, then went on to advise that we should pay retention bonuses to all IT staff to manage the UK's transition to the Euro!   He was told to foxtrot-oscar!


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## woody69 (Oct 30, 2018)

IanM said:



			Well as Econ and Politics grad with non UK heritage, I'd say the questions are interestingly framed..... but that makes me a poorly educated racist.  (apparently) 

And Y2K wasnt a hoax, but it was sure as hell overstated!  I was working in a major organisation at the time, and at the end of January 2000, the IT Director made a presentation to the board about how he'd saved the organisation fron disaster, then went on to advise that we should pay retention bonuses to all IT staff to manage the UK's transition to the Euro!   He was told to foxtrot-oscar! 

Click to expand...

Why are they interestingly framed? They are asking which of 3 statements are true.

And why does it make you a poorly educated racist? The study doesn't make any such conclusions.


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## IanM (Oct 30, 2018)

I didnt say they were not true, but the questions about about employment sectors, framed differently would have drawn the opposite conclusion. (according to the ONS)

Item 1251 above: statement made by one of our number that "Leavers are uneducated racists."


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## Mudball (Oct 30, 2018)

This is comedy gold.. this smacks so much of a response that Sir Humphrey would give his minister .. she should be proud 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46035919


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## woody69 (Oct 30, 2018)

IanM said:



			I didnt say they were not true, but the questions about about employment sectors, framed differently would have drawn the opposite conclusion. (according to the ONS)

Item 1251 above: statement made by one of our number that "Leavers are uneducated racists."
		
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I never suggested you said the questions weren't true. I just asked why you said they were "interestingly framed", when they simply asked respondents to state which statement they believed in. Please excuse my ignorance, but can you expand on how the question on employment sectors would draw the opposite conclusion?

I don't think the survey suggests leavers are poorly educated racists, just that a significant proportion are/were misinformed


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2018)

Did I understand this even vaguely correctly.  That the OBR provides the Chancellor with 5yr economic forecasts and analysis of the public finances for his Budget purposes and these are based upon what the government aims to achieve over that 5yr period.  And as the government wishes (clearly) to achieve a smooth and painless Brexit then the OBR forecasts used for the Budget *had* to be based upon the assumption that such a Brexit would be achieved.

Excellent.


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## adam6177 (Oct 31, 2018)




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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			You know this as fact or did your mate in the pub tell you.

Please provide evidence to support your post ðŸ¤”
		
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It's really, really just not worth it.  No forecast about what will happen in the event of a No Deal - even from the mouths of some Leave supporting government ministers   - no matter how many and from whosoever - will ever give rise to any doubt in your mind that their are massive risks to us leaving the Eu and that perhaps - just perhaps - it is not actually the right thing to do.  So I am not going to bother.  Just go read or listen to what many commentators and economic forecasters are saying.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You know this emergency budget that Mr Hammond says he will be forced to introduce in the event of a blind/no Brexit.

How much better off do you think we will all be as a result of it ?
		
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That'll be the budget based upon OBR predictions about the economy assuming a smooth and painless Brexit.  Oh joys.


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## Hobbit (Oct 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did I understand this even vaguely correctly.  That the OBR provides the Chancellor with 5yr economic forecasts and analysis of the public finances for his Budget purposes and these are based upon what the government aims to achieve over that 5yr period.  And as the government wishes (clearly) to achieve a smooth and painless Brexit then the OBR forecasts used for the Budget *had* to be based upon the assumption that such a Brexit would be achieved.

Excellent.
		
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Yes you understood that correctly. Just as the chancellor said that if a smooth Brexit wasn't achieved there'd have to be another budget. Did you miss that bit?

There had to be a budget, and there is an expectation of a deal, hence the budget that was produced. Not difficult to understand.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2018)

drdel said:



			Still a lot to discuss / argue over?

Have at it...
		
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You have a lot to answer for!


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## drdel (Oct 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did I understand this even vaguely correctly.  That the OBR provides the Chancellor with 5yr economic forecasts and analysis of the public finances for his Budget purposes and these are based upon what the government aims to achieve over that 5yr period.  And as the government wishes (clearly) to achieve a smooth and painless Brexit then the OBR forecasts used for the Budget *had* to be based upon the assumption that such a Brexit would be achieved.

Excellent.
		
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Groundless assumption. The OBR will have taken at least 3 scenarios.


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## drdel (Oct 31, 2018)

IainP said:



			You have a lot to answer for!
		
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Sorry

Amongst all the tripe there is some nuggets - honest. It is amusing - - I think


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## Fade and Die (Oct 31, 2018)

https://humanism.org.uk/2018/10/29/...ules-that-austria-can-keep-its-blasphemy-law/

Letâ€™s get out of this madness and quickly...... Blasphemy Laws by the back door....Freedom of speech is absolutely vital in a  truly free society.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's really, really just not worth it.
		
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That's a no then.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 31, 2018)

Looks like the Westminster Government is spending Â£billions on stockpiling medicines pre Brexit after all.

Despite previous assurances from half a dozen guys on a golf forum that they were not.


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## Leftie (Oct 31, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Despite previous assurances from half a dozen guys on a golf forum that they were not.

Click to expand...

Let's face it Doon, there are probably less than half a dozen guys on this Forum who _actually know_  what they are talking about on Brexit.


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## Mudball (Nov 1, 2018)

Leftie said:



			Let's face it Doon, there are probably less than half a dozen guys on this Forum who _actually know_  what they are talking about on Brexit. 

Click to expand...

... or about golf...
.. remember we canâ€™t agree where our PP should stand or weather the rake should be in or out of the bunker ...


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2018)

Thoughts from German Parliament


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2018)

woody69 said:



			I never suggested you said the questions weren't true. I just asked why you said they were "interestingly framed", when they simply asked respondents to state which statement they believed in. Please excuse my ignorance, but can you expand on how the question on employment sectors would draw the opposite conclusion?

*I don't think the survey suggests leavers are poorly educated racists, just that a significant proportion are/were misinformed*

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Were a significant number of Remain voters not misinformed by the rantings of project fear?  Of course they were, just look back at the predictions from Cameron, Osborne, At El on how we would be affected immediately following a leave vote.   The BS was pretty evenly spread IMO.


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## User62651 (Nov 1, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Were a significant number of Remain voters not misinformed by the rantings of project fear?  Of course they were, just look back at the predictions from Cameron, Osborne, At El on how we would be affected immediately following a leave vote.   The BS was pretty evenly spread IMO.
		
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13 million people didn't vote who were eligible, that's the depressing side of this. It's all bye the bye but those who want change are motivated and will vote in very high %, those who want the status quo generally are not motivated, perhaps making assumptions that things will stay as they are. A harsh lesson hopefully learned. If you dont choose to vote extremists and minority views can win, that's what people need to realise, complaining later on is no good. Apathy can be dangerous.


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## woody69 (Nov 1, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



https://humanism.org.uk/2018/10/29/...ules-that-austria-can-keep-its-blasphemy-law/

Letâ€™s get out of this madness and quickly...... Blasphemy Laws by the back door....Freedom of speech is absolutely vital in a  truly free society.
		
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Yeah, that's completely irrelevant as the UK will still remain a member of the ECHR, which is a good thing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 1, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			That's a no then.
		
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It's a no.  you can go and read about the forecasts - they can easily be found.  

Many are not based upon airey-fairly notions about what we might be able to do in the future - they are based upon detailed understanding of the present - with direct extrapolations.  As for any modelling and estimation there are levels of uncertainty around your measurements,, variables and the predictions - but these uncertainties are significantly reduced if you have some real data - real measurements to go on.  So for instance we know how haulage vehicles are processed at ports - we know how long it takes. That's real stuff that you can model from with quite low uncertainty.

So let's say the speed limit on the M25 around Heathrow was tomorrow morning at 9am - without warning - reduced to 20mph.  What is likely to happen? 

I cannot tell you exactly what *will *happen because I cannot _actually _see the future - but I can predict with a very high level of confidence that things will grind to a halt very quickly.  I might not be able to say they *will *grind to a halt - because who knows - traffic volumes on the M25 might for some unknown reason be negligible tomorrow morning at 9am.  But *that *is very unlikely and so we can predict with almost 100% confidence that a massive snarl up *will* happen and it will not clear for as long as the speed limit stays at 20mph.  

I would suggest that many of the projections that are rejected as Project Fear are of this nature - built on understanding of the real world today and historically, and built on the rock of fact.

As far as Brexit lovers projections - all completely built upon sand I might suggest.  Because we have very little - if any - evidence whatsoever on how the UK economy and business will perform in respect post Brexit - because the UK has never existed in a global economy of the sort we have today. Everything is wishful thinking.  And for me that's just not good enough.


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## Mudball (Nov 1, 2018)

Is it just me or does anyone also think that the most likely scenario is 

... We will cry wolf wolf wolf about no deal.. and then out of the blue all the cards will fall into place and 'we have a deal'... everyone is a winner (other than Labour)..


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Is it just me or does anyone also think that the most likely scenario is

... We will cry wolf wolf wolf about no deal.. and then out of the blue all the cards will fall into place and 'we have a deal'... everyone is a winner (other than Labour)..
		
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Nope. I think we'll leave without a deal. Too much room between the negotiating parties and too many people with vested interests laying down red lines.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 1, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Yeah, that's completely irrelevant as the UK will still remain a member of the ECHR, which is a good thing.
		
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You think itâ€™s a good thing to be part of an organisation that is passing legislation limiting freedom of speech?  Wow you federalist are an odd bunch! ðŸ¤¯


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			You think itâ€™s a good thing to be part of an organisation that is passing legislation limiting freedom of speech?  Wow you federalist are an odd bunch! ðŸ¤¯
		
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Did you read the article you posted? This is a direct quote from it.....

*Some commentators have misinterpreted the ruling as reimposing a blasphemy law across Europe but this is not the case. All the European Court has done is ruled that those states that do have blasphemy laws can maintain and enforce them. It does not re-impose blasphemy laws on states that do not have such laws, and does not in any way reverse the decision taken by Irish voters on Friday to repeal Irelandâ€™s law. Nonetheless, the ruling is still a bad one, as it would have been hoped that the Court would move towards striking down blasphemy laws across Europe.*

It's still completely up to the local electorate as to whether they want a blasphemy law. Woukd you have preferred that they insisted that a national law be repealed? I thought that was exactly what was wrong with the EU?


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 1, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Thoughts from German Parliament 





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Far too sensible, no chance of that being adopted, sadly.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 1, 2018)

Getting bored of these Tory give away budgets now to try and blindside voters into â€œyour better off under usâ€ itâ€™s lovely to have an extra Â£30 pcm (Â£70 saved in tax but Â£40 more NI) , these are with next years changes ofc, however Iâ€™d rather you take that extra Â£30 and maybe fund some under funded schools.. or the nhs.. or anything really

My wife is Â£10 more pcm better off

So that Â£40 letâ€™s call it on average Â£20 per house hold in the uk a month .. thatâ€™s Â£240 a year tax saved.. again letâ€™s round down call it Â£200 per house hold per year

27 million households in the uk

Â£200 per house hold 

Thatâ€™s 

Â£5400000000 per year that could be far better used! Considering people are paying this now their used to it.. werenâ€™t expecting anything so just leave it alone and use the money!

Correct me if Iâ€™m wrong but isnâ€™t that what taxes are for? To pay for things?!


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## Fade and Die (Nov 1, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Did you read the article you posted? This is a direct quote from it.....

*Some commentators have misinterpreted the ruling as reimposing a blasphemy law across Europe but this is not the case. All the European Court has done is ruled that those states that do have blasphemy laws can maintain and enforce them. It does not re-impose blasphemy laws on states that do not have such laws, and does not in any way reverse the decision taken by Irish voters on Friday to repeal Irelandâ€™s law. Nonetheless, the ruling is still a bad one, as it would have been hoped that the Court would move towards striking down blasphemy laws across Europe.*

It's still completely up to the local electorate as to whether they want a blasphemy law. Woukd you have preferred that they insisted that a national law be repealed? I thought that was exactly what was wrong with the EU?
		
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Yes I read it, I particularly agree with this comment â€œWith this judgment, the ECtHR has effectively upheld Austriaâ€™s domestic laws that in effect criminalise legitimate speech about certain religionsâ€ 
Do you think thatâ€™s what the ECtHR should be doing? Are you happy that the ECtHR canâ€™t be relied upon to intervene in favour of free speech.?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2018)

pauljames87 said:



			Getting bored of these Tory give away budgets now to try and blindside voters into â€œyour better off under usâ€ itâ€™s lovely to have an extra Â£30 pcm (Â£70 saved in tax but Â£40 more NI) , these are with next years changes ofc, however Iâ€™d rather you take that extra Â£30 and maybe fund some under funded schools.. or the nhs.. or anything really

My wife is Â£10 more pcm better off

So that Â£40 letâ€™s call it on average Â£20 per house hold in the uk a month .. thatâ€™s Â£240 a year tax saved.. again letâ€™s round down call it Â£200 per house hold per year

27 million households in the uk

Â£200 per house hold

Thatâ€™s

Â£5400000000 per year that could be far better used! Considering people are paying this now their used to it.. werenâ€™t expecting anything so just leave it alone and use the money!
Correct me if Iâ€™m wrong but isnâ€™t that what taxes are for? To pay for things?!
		
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Taxes are to take your money off you and spend it on what someone else thinks it should be spent on.  Why not keep it and spend it on things you want.


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## bluewolf (Nov 2, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes I read it, I particularly agree with this comment â€œWith this judgment, the ECtHR has effectively upheld Austriaâ€™s domestic laws that in effect criminalise legitimate speech about certain religionsâ€
Do you think thatâ€™s what the ECtHR should be doing? Are you happy that the ECtHR canâ€™t be relied upon to intervene in favour of free speech.?
		
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Well that's my question avoided. I'll do you the courtesy of answering your question seeing as you seem intent on not answering mine.
The ECtHR have not really done that. It's the Austrian Law that has "criminalised legitimate speech about certain religions". The ECtHR has decided that they are entitled to do so. So, for that reason, I'm "Ok" with the decision. Isn't that something that Leavers have been complaining bitterly about? Sovereignty. I suspect that people would be up in arms if the ECtHR had overruled a Law in this Country. You can't have it both ways. 

I should point out that the phrasing is fairly  interesting. Why haven't they "criminalised hate speech about all religions"? It's almost as though the article is written as a dog whistle for certain elements to latch on to. Can't think why they'd do that ðŸ¤”


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## adam6177 (Nov 2, 2018)

all this reading on the taxes etc combined with the "should I buy a diesel thread" and the repercussions for fuel duty and vehicle duty in the long term got me thinking about how much money the government gets each year through those taxes, along with VAT etc etc

The estimated income for 2019 is Â£776bn ...... I'd love to know how that money is spent.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 2, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			all this reading on the taxes etc combined with the "should I buy a diesel thread" and the repercussions for fuel duty and vehicle duty in the long term got me thinking about how much money the government gets each year through those taxes, along with VAT etc etc

The estimated income for 2019 is Â£776bn ...... I'd love to know how that money is spent.
		
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The biggest bills will be for the welfare state and the NHS. The welfare state bill is staggering

"In the financial year ending 2017, the UK government spent *Â£264* billion on welfare, which made up 34% of all government spending." - Office of National Statistics.

NHS was approx Â£125bn in the same period.


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## adam6177 (Nov 2, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The biggest bills will be for the welfare state and the NHS. The welfare state bill is staggering

"In the financial year ending 2017, the UK government spent *Â£264* billion on welfare, which made up 34% of all government spending." - Office of National Statistics.

NHS was approx Â£125bn in the same period.
		
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very very interesting figures.  I was also just reading how we've spent Â£4bn on improving the roads and railways in other countries.....bearing in mind the state of our own.

Anyway.....I dont want to hijack this thread further!


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## bluewolf (Nov 2, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The biggest bills will be for the welfare state and the NHS. The welfare state bill is staggering

"In the financial year ending 2017, the UK government spent *Â£264* billion on welfare, which made up 34% of all government spending." - Office of National Statistics.

NHS was approx Â£125bn in the same period.
		
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Not arguing at all but I'm at work and can't check. It would be interesting if you split up the "Welfare" costs into their individual sections. For example, pensions, in work benefits etc.

The reason this is vital is that when you simply state "Welfare", some people immediately assume that it's out of work benefits that you're talking about


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 2, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Not arguing at all but I'm at work and can't check. It would be interesting if you split up the "Welfare" costs into their individual sections. For example, pensions, in work benefits etc.

The reason this is vital is that when you simply state "Welfare", some people immediately assume that it's out of work benefits that you're talking about
		
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Sorry, I wasn't trying to make a point, just answering the question. You are correct, welfare covers a huge area, not just work benefits. I googled it and this came up from the Office of National Statistics. There may be a way to break it down further but I just did a quick check. No angle to it.


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## bluewolf (Nov 2, 2018)

Just did a quick google..




Makes for very interesting reading..


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## yandabrown (Nov 2, 2018)

There is a pretty good breakdown here: https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2017UKbt_17bc1n_40#ukgs302 and this includes local government spend too. I don't know what political angle this comes from (most things have one) but the headlines were: Pensions 20%, Health Care 18%, Welfare 14% (which has been broken down further in the list to Social Exclusion?, Social Protection?, Family, Housing and least of all Unemployment), Education 11%, Defence 6%, Interest 6%, Protection (Police, Fire, Law, Prisons ...) 4%, Transport 4%, Central Government 2% and Others at 15%.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			very very interesting figures.  I was also just reading how *we've spent Â£4bn on improving the roads and railways in other countries.....bearing in mind the state of our own.*

Anyway.....I dont want to hijack this thread further!
		
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Kinda the flip side of how overseas rail companies and governments make quite a few Â£Â£,Â£Â£Â£,Â£Â£Â£s out of running our rail franchises.  Nuts!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2018)

Just loving Aaron Banks...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2018)

Well - if ST report is true is that BINO?  Mind you anything that has Peter Bone frothing and the mouth should have me celebrating - and with Arron Banks squirming and avoiding on Marr I could be doubly so.  But we seem to be damage limitation country - where there is little being talked of the great future - but quite a lot that seems to be the least worse option.  Best damage limitation exercise?  Don't do it.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 4, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - if ST report is true is that BINO?  Mind you anything that has Peter Bone frothing and the mouth should have me celebrating - and with Arron Banks squirming and avoiding on Marr I could be doubly so.  But we seem to be damage limitation country - where there is little being talked of the great future - but quite a lot that seems to be the least worse option.  Best damage limitation exercise?  Don't do it.
		
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The Banks witch-hunt is clearly part of a fresh Establishment push to discredit the Referendum result, cleverly coordinated to give the illusion of being popular demand for a â€œPeopleâ€™s Voteâ€.
I havenâ€™t been able to switch on the TV recently without some supposed expert telling me another Referendum is the ONLY answer to stalemate in Parliamentâ€¦ a gridlock that I believe has been deliberately engendered by Olly Robbins and Appeaser May on behalf of her Remain Establishment masters.
And the remainers wonâ€™t leave anything to chance this time. Itâ€™ll be a full on fix from the start. The 2nd (3rd) referendum will be a choice between: 
1. LEAVE â€“ with a shocking BRINO deal, including Â£60billion golden goodbye compo to keep the 4th Reich in the manner to which itâ€™s accustomed for the next 6 years.
2. REMAIN â€“ and live to fight another day.
16 year olds+ will be bribed to vote Remain. EU Nationals who have been resident 5 years or more will be given a vote. All expats living in the EU will be given the vote. All Leaver posters will be locked up for the duration for Hate Crime.
What an appalling waste of money, emotional energy and time the last two and a half years has been.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Just did a quick google..

View attachment 25846


Makes for very interesting reading..
		
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The only thing I find interesting about it is that State pensions can be considered a benefit.


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## bluewolf (Nov 4, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you could explain what is interesting about it?
		
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Are you expecting me to confirm something you already think?

It's interesting because I suspect that quite a few people think that Welfare is more to do with Out of Work benefits. I already said this in a previous post. 

Out of interest, what prejudiced view did you expect me to have? I could hazard a guess but I'll admit if I'm wrong.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Are you expecting me to confirm something you already think?

It's interesting because I suspect that quite a few people think that Welfare is more to do with Out of Work benefits. I already said this in a previous post.

Out of interest, what prejudiced view did you expect me to have? I could hazard a guess but I'll admit if I'm wrong.
		
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Ouch! Bit snappy tonight.  I did rethink my post and edit it.


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## bluewolf (Nov 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Ouch! Bit snappy tonight.  I did rethink my post and edit it.
		
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It was written with a smile. And I was right as well.


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## Foxholer (Nov 5, 2018)

woody69 said:





Fade and Die said:



https://humanism.org.uk/2018/10/29/...ules-that-austria-can-keep-its-blasphemy-law/

Letâ€™s get out of this madness and quickly...... Blasphemy Laws by the back door....Freedom of speech is absolutely vital in a  truly free society.
		
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Yeah, that's completely irrelevant as the UK will still remain a member of the ECHR, which is a good thing.
		
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How many times must it be stated that

THE ECHR IS NOT PART OF THE EU.

Oh and for what it's worth, I believe it's reasonable to have (reasonable) blasphemy laws - for the same reason that there are (already) laws covering slander and libel!

Freedom of speech; certainly - but with reasonable limits!


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## bobmac (Nov 5, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Oh and for what it's worth, I believe it's reasonable to have (reasonable) blasphemy laws - for the same reason that there are (already) laws covering slander and libel!
		
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Who decides what's reasonable?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just loving Aaron Banks...

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I certainly would not buy any double glazing from him.
I think this ones a runner.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 5, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			How many times must it be stated that

THE ECHR IS NOT PART OF THE EU.

Oh and for what it's worth, I believe it's reasonable to have (reasonable) blasphemy laws - for the same reason that there are (already) laws covering slander and libel!

Freedom of speech; certainly - but with reasonable limits!
		
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The â€˜crimeâ€™ of blasphemy is all about the demands of religious fascists that their ideology not be subject to criticism of any kind. if the mad ruling by the ECtHR stands then it is inevitable that â€˜blasphemyâ€™ will be used as a cudgel by the most violent, the most bigoted of religious believers to silence all and any criticism of their ideology.


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## Foxholer (Nov 5, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			The â€˜crimeâ€™ of blasphemy is all about the demands of religious fascists that their ideology not be subject to criticism of any kind. if the mad ruling by the ECtHR stands then it is inevitable that â€˜blasphemyâ€™ will be used as a cudgel by the most violent, the most bigoted of religious believers to silence all and any criticism of their ideology.
		
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Please explain how 'defaming the prophet of Islam' - however it is done - is legitimate freedom of speech!

It seems to me that your view is almost as extreme as those you are describing! Though there is certainly a danger that laws and sentences could be used, unreasonably, in that way - as has indeed happened in some countries. That's why I stressed 'reasonable'!

Now....Back to Brexit/EU!


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## Foxholer (Nov 5, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Who decides what's reasonable?
		
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'The usual culprits'!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Taxes are to take your money off you and spend it on what someone else thinks it should be spent on.  Why not keep it and spend it on things you want.
		
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Because we are not all as fortunate as those who have more than just sufficient - and some depend upon others (through a redistributive tax system) to have even a very basic standard of living.  One of the decent things about living in a democracy is that our representatives are elected to look beyond the specific needs of their own constituents - to take a wider view about what is best for UK society as a whole.

Anyway - not surprised to read that Johnson is coming out strongly against what May is reported to have agreed re a customs union.  He has the ear of enough of the Leave constituency to make whatever May might have got agreed sound like the worst deal ever, a sell-out - and many of those lending him their ear will be calling Johnson to be just the person to take over from May.  My Deal or No Deal might be what May tells her colleagues - reject it and No Deal will be on yuor head.  Except Johnson is semi-detached from all that so might keep his.

Actually strikes me that, given the degree to which he continues to undermine the PM, Johnson should have the Tory party whip removed.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 5, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Please explain how 'defaming the prophet of Islam' - however it is done - is legitimate freedom of speech!

It seems to me that your view is almost as extreme as those you are describing! Though there is certainly a danger that laws and sentences could be used, unreasonably, in that way - as has indeed happened in some countries. That's why I stressed 'reasonable'!

Now....Back to Brexit/EU!
		
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Apologies for taking this thread off on a tangent but last point on this freedom of speech malarkey........As Raif Badawi, who has been kept in jail in Saudi Arabia since 2012 for â€œinsulting Islam through electronic channels,â€ has said â€œfreedom of expression is the air every thinker breathes.â€

Anyways back to the serious stuff.... whoâ€™s looking forward to bendy bananas?ðŸ˜¬


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## Foxholer (Nov 5, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			.... whoâ€™s looking forward to bendy bananas?ðŸ˜¬
		
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That (and cucumbers having to be straight) was another complete load of b-s pushed by sections of that great espouser of 'free speech' - the UK Press!

There is much to be criticised about that particular body's use of its significant power to shape opinion!


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## Fade and Die (Nov 5, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			That (and cucumbers having to be straight) was another complete load of b-s pushed by sections of that great espouser of 'free speech' - the UK Press!

There is much to be criticised about that particular body's use of its significant power to shape opinion!
		
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And yet it WAS a directive from 1994 till 2008 when it was repealed as the EU were concerned about good food going to waste. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:1994R2257:20060217:EN:PDF So not quiet the BS you make out!


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## Mudball (Nov 5, 2018)

Sums up this thread...


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## Foxholer (Nov 5, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			And yet it WAS a directive from 1994 till 2008 when it was repealed as the EU were concerned about good food going to waste. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:1994R2257:20060217:EN:PDF So not quiet the BS you make out! 

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Oh yes it was!

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/media/euromyths/bendybananas.html

That regulation covered ALL types of banana. Not just the A Grade ones - which was all the article chose to 'describe'!

Are you so gullible that you are taken in by such press snippets (The Sun in this case I believe) manipulating fact to further its own agenda?

Check out some facts!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/


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## Fade and Die (Nov 5, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Oh yes it was!

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/media/euromyths/bendybananas.html

That regulation covered ALL types of banana. Not just the A Grade ones - which was all the article chose to 'describe'!

Are you so gullible that you are taken in by such press snippets (The Sun in this case I believe) manipulating fact to further its own agenda?

Check out some facts!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

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My final word on this as its getting silly and I would never try to go to war with the undisputed king of the pedants but the law itself is here https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31994R2257:EN:HTML and contains these lines:

QUALITY STANDARDS FOR BANANAS I. DEFINITION OF PRODUCE

This standard applies to bananas of the varieties (cultivars) of Musa (AAA) spp., Cavendish and Gros Michel subgroups, referred to in Annex II, for supply fresh to the consumer after preparation and packaging. Plantains, bananas intended for industrial processing and fig bananas are not covered.
...
*free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers*


So, the standards did indeed say that excessively bendy bananas may not be sold for human consumption, (but can be for industrial processing). So something is banned under the regulation: excessively bendy bananas being sold for direct human consumption.  The problem is that this regulation had the force of law. It was, in theory, possible that someone could have been prosecuted for selling bendy (OK, too bendy) bananas for human consumption. And who in heck wants to live in a legal system that would allow that sort of nonsense?


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## Foxholer (Nov 5, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			My final word on this as its getting silly and I would never try to go to war with the undisputed king of the pedants but the law itself is here https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31994R2257:EN:HTML and contains these lines:

QUALITY STANDARDS FOR BANANAS I. DEFINITION OF PRODUCE

This standard applies to bananas of the varieties (cultivars) of Musa (AAA) spp., Cavendish and Gros Michel subgroups, referred to in Annex II, for supply fresh to the consumer after preparation and packaging. Plantains, bananas intended for industrial processing and fig bananas are not covered.
...
*free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers*


So, the standards did indeed say that excessively bendy bananas may not be sold for human consumption, (but can be for industrial processing). So something is banned under the regulation: excessively bendy bananas being sold for direct human consumption.  The problem is that this regulation had the force of law. It was, in theory, possible that someone could have been prosecuted for selling bendy (OK, too bendy) bananas for human consumption. And who in heck wants to live in a legal system that would allow that sort of nonsense?
		
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Read the links I posted!

It appears that you really ARE 'that gullible'!


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## IanM (Nov 5, 2018)

See above Pie Chart.....


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## adam6177 (Nov 5, 2018)

I see that the decline of the Ferry business is now being blamed on brexit......now there's me thinking it had been on a road to ruin since the 1990s.  Silly me, it's all brexits fault.

Do people really believe this rubbish!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2018)

Tonights Channel 4 Brexit programme on 'What the Nation Really Thinks' seems to include guests from only England and Wales.
Only actually half of the Nations involved...â€¦...the excluded pair being the two who voted stay .


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## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Ouch! Bit snappy tonight.  I did rethink my post and edit it.
		
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bluewolf said:



			Are you expecting me to confirm something you already think?

It's interesting because I suspect that quite a few people think that Welfare is more to do with Out of Work benefits. I already said this in a previous post.

Out of interest, what prejudiced view did you expect me to have? I could hazard a guess but I'll admit if I'm wrong.
		
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I merely asked you what you found  interesting about the chart, it was a straight forward question and my motive for asking it was to find out why you found it interesting.  You seem to think i have some hidden agenda for asking you but your suspicions are unfounded. Honest!


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## bluewolf (Nov 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I merely asked you what you found  interesting about the chart, it was a straight forward question and my motive for asking it was to find out why you found it interesting.  You seem to think i have some hidden agenda for asking you but your suspicions are unfounded. Honest!
		
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I accept that. I've never known you to be anything other than honest ðŸ‘


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 5, 2018)

Mudball said:



			... or about golf...
.. remember we canâ€™t agree where our PP should stand or weather the rake should be in or out of the bunker ...
		
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Good point! And the answers to those two conundrums could easily change depending on the outcome of Brexit


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 5, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Good point! And the answers to those two conundrums could easily change depending on the outcome of Brexit 

Click to expand...

Surely the rake argument will never be resolved. Leavers will always want the rake OUT of the bunker and Remainers will want the rake IN the bunker.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 6, 2018)

Interesting results from the Channel 4 Brexit poll and programme.

54% of voters would now vote for Remain.
Every region of the UK covered supported Remain...â€¦.the Blue/Yellow map now turned completely yellow.
Both Labour and Tory spokesmen looked dumbstruck, Farage lost the plot [again]
Green spoke well and seemed to have nearly all of the studio audience in support.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting results from the Channel 4 Brexit poll and programme.

54% of voters would now vote for Remain.
Every region of the UK covered supported Remain...â€¦.the Blue/Yellow map now turned completely yellow.
Both Labour and Tory spokesmen looked dumbstruck, Farage lost the plot [again]
Green spoke well and seemed to have nearly all of the studio audience in support.
		
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https://www.channel4.com/info/press...-vote-to-remain-in-eu-by-majority-of-54-to-46

Results for those who missed the programme.


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## ger147 (Nov 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.channel4.com/info/press...-vote-to-remain-in-eu-by-majority-of-54-to-46

Results for those who missed the programme.
		
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Looks pretty similar to all the opinion polls in 2016 before the actual vote, and we know how that turned out...


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## spongebob59 (Nov 6, 2018)

Ch 4, well known remain backing station.


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## woody69 (Nov 6, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			Ch 4, well known remain backing station.
		
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Are you suggesting that the 'independent' survey is not so independent and C4 are pushing some kind of agenda?

You don't think that the result of the survey is perhaps a reflection now of people's opinions, that may well have changed since the referendum?


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## Dellboy (Nov 6, 2018)

Channel 4 and independent, not a Phrase you often see in the same sentence.

Never mind Iâ€™m sure Channel 4 are happy this morning after the EU commission has decided to approve the new funding  arrangements  for
the  independent   British  television station  Channel  4.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 6, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Are you suggesting that the 'independent' survey is not so independent and C4 are pushing some kind of agenda?

You don't think that the result of the survey is perhaps a reflection now of people's opinions, that may well have changed since the referendum?
		
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woody69 said:



			Are you suggesting that the 'independent' survey is not so independent and C4 are pushing some kind of agenda?

You don't think that the result of the survey is perhaps a reflection now of people's opinions, that may well have changed since the referendum?
		
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No, I'm just saying what I said, ask Jon Snow


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## jp5 (Nov 6, 2018)

Interesting poll to see the areas of the country that have most swung to remain being those that would most be affected by a bad deal. Overall numbers still within a few percentage points so as a country we'll be divided on this one way or the other. Can't see that overturning a narrow vote with another narrow vote would do us any good mind!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

And Nigel Farage's response (he was on the programme).  I paraphrase - _'Well of course that survey result is hardly surprising given all the coverage Remain has been given since the referendum - compared with what the Leave argument has had'_

Well yes Nigel - as the complexities and issues associated with Leaving the EU are further detailed and explained; and the impossibility of May being able to deliver what was promised to Leave voters is exposed as the unicorn that it is - yes - we are informed of all of that.  And meanwhile the Leave argument can do little more than repeat what they said before the vote - hopes and aspirations built on nothing more than a belief - a belief that many will say is no more than sand...

Nigel Farage is complaining about a media bias in explaining what Brexit will mean - he is in actually complaining about making the electorate more informed - can't have an informed electorate can we...

And just to top off his duplicity and wriggling he moans about a bias in respect of the four politicians on the programme - as if that was somehow an explanation of the survey results...

The man would be an utter joke - if the situation was not so critical - and that makes him simply invidious

BTW - was well not impressed by the evasiveness and weasel words from Labour in the form of Barry Gardiner and the total feebleness of David Gauke for the government.  As often in such matters Caroline Lucas was the most coherent and convincing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Interesting poll to see the areas of the country that have most swung to remain being those that would most be affected by a bad deal. Overall numbers still within a few percentage points so as a country we'll be divided on this one way or the other. Can't see that overturning a narrow vote with another narrow vote would do us any good mind!
		
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Yup - massive change in Sunderland - though Farage simply dismisses it on the grounds of too small a sample of the Sunderland electorate to be believed.

Liked the stat that identified over 75 white males from the SE of England as the most likely part of the electorate to still be supporting leave.


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## woody69 (Nov 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - massive change in Sunderland - though Farage simply dismisses it on the grounds of too small a sample of the Sunderland electorate to be believed.

Liked the stat that identified over 75 white males from the SE of England as the most likely part of the electorate to still be supporting leave.
		
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Nigel doesn't understand how survey confidence intervals and levels work I'm guessing.


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## Foxholer (Nov 6, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Nigel doesn't understand how survey confidence intervals and levels work I'm guessing.
		
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I think he probably does! 

But any seemingly reasonable reason to reject the results of a 'negative' poll will do - and he probably figures that the vast majority of folk don't 'understand how survey confidence intervals and levels work'!

I was actually very surprised at the result in Sunderland (from memory, the 1st result in), primarily because of the apparent 'significant risk' that Nissan - an enormous contributor to the area's economy - would move to Europe. Perhaps there is now a greater fear that that this would happen, despite messages by both Nissan and he Government that they would stay.


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## User62651 (Nov 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting results from the Channel 4 Brexit poll and programme.
		
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Started watching, lasted about 3 minutes before switching over, just couldn't endure the same old arguments and counter arguments. There are upsides and downsides to both leaving and remaining but you wouldn't know that I'm guessing from the show?




Foxholer said:



			I think he probably does!

But any seemingly reasonable reason to reject the results of a 'negative' poll will do - and he probably figures that the vast majority of folk don't 'understand how survey confidence intervals and levels work'!

I was actually very surprised at the result in Sunderland (from memory, the 1st result in), primarily because of the apparent 'significant risk' that Nissan - an enormous contributor to the area's economy - would move to Europe. Perhaps there is now a greater fear that that this would happen, despite messages by both Nissan and he Government that they would stay.
		
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Perhaps it was simpler, Sunderland is a strong labour working class area, referendum came in midst of a period of Cameron/Osbourbe brutal austerity. Maybe the folks of Sunderland just wanted to get rid of Cameron or give him a political 'doing' so voted leave? How else you you explain the change in Brexit views?


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## adam6177 (Nov 6, 2018)

I dont find the results of the "independent" survey surprising at all.  

Having spent 2 years being bombarded by all the major media outlets about how the world will implode if we brexit, what other outcome really was to be expected....to be honest I see the results as a "success" for the leavers because it proves that despite the media campaign to change the vote there is still a large proportion that want to leave and haven't been brainwashed over the last 2 years.

Did they mention how their "control" group was chosen? From looking at the stats it seems that less that 40,000 was surveyed?  

I tend to think that they could have made up some numbers on the back of a fag packet and they would mean as much as this survey.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 6, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I dont find the results of the "independent" survey surprising at all. 

Having spent 2 years being bombarded by all the major media outlets about how the world will implode if we brexit, what other outcome really was to be expected....to be honest I see the results as a "success" for the leavers because it proves that despite the media campaign to change the vote there is still a large proportion that want to leave and haven't been brainwashed over the last 2 years.

Did they mention how their "control" group was chosen? From looking at the stats it seems that less that 40,000 was surveyed? 

I tend to think that they could have made up some numbers on the back of a fag packet and they would mean as much as this survey.
		
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I've read it was 20,000, so hardly a large group.
Plenty of polls out there saying the opposite.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			I've read it was 20,000, so hardly a large group.
Plenty of polls out there saying the opposite.
		
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Plenty?  Of that size?  Or just wishful thinking.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 6, 2018)

I do have to laugh at all the pro leave bias claims about Channel 4 from leavers. 

Try comparing it to the 'independent' BBC during the Scottish referendum.


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## drdel (Nov 6, 2018)

Its funny that there was a 100% total, in a  real vote there are always a significant "undefined"/ non-voters!!!


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## jp5 (Nov 6, 2018)

drdel said:



			Its funny that there was a 100% total, in a  real vote there are always a significant "undefined"/ non-voters!!!
		
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The results were weighted by likeliness to vote.


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## jp5 (Nov 6, 2018)

20,000 as a survey sample size is very large, much more than for the usual polls, and is statistically very likely to be accurate.

The survey really has no importance, but it's wrong to write it off as inaccurate.


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## Foxholer (Nov 6, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			...Perhaps it was simpler, Sunderland is a strong labour working class area, referendum came in midst of a period of Cameron/Osbourbe brutal austerity. Maybe the folks of Sunderland just wanted to get rid of Cameron or give him a political 'doing' so voted leave? How else you you explain the change in Brexit views?
		
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 Seems to me that 'austerity' hasn't actually finished and any 'hatred' of Cameron/Osborne wouldn't be all that different to attitude to May!

But who knows. Maybe the sample really WAS too small or wasn't indicative of those that voted in 2016!


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## adam6177 (Nov 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Try comparing it to the 'independent' BBC during the Scottish referendum.
		
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The BBC are not independent.  They only claim to be.


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## IanM (Nov 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I do have to laugh at all the pro leave bias claims about Channel 4 from leavers.

Try comparing it to the 'independent' BBC during the Scottish referendum.
		
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I didnt see the programme.... but in keeping with the BBC, I understand the "panel" was three Remainers to one Leaver...  as is QT every week. (and a Remain "chair")   Maybe that's a coincidence!   You'd think 2 and 2 from each side would be compulsory...but of course they are not even pretending to be impartial


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 6, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Started watching, lasted about 3 minutes before switching over, just couldn't endure the same old arguments and counter arguments. There are upsides and downsides to both leaving and remaining but you wouldn't know that I'm guessing from the show?




Perhaps it was simpler, Sunderland is a strong labour working class area, referendum came in midst of a period of Cameron/Osbourbe brutal austerity. Maybe the folks of Sunderland just wanted to get rid of Cameron or give him a political 'doing' so voted leave? How else you you explain the change in Brexit views?
		
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Living in the NE I think the last paragraph is very true.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

jp5 said:



			20,000 as a survey sample size is very large, much more than for the usual polls, and is statistically very likely to be accurate.

The survey really has no importance, but it's wrong to write it off as inaccurate.
		
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Unfortunately writing it off as irrelevant or inaccurate is just the modus operandi of many who voted to Leave and will not hear of any risk, issue or problem associated with leaving - no matter how firm the basis for any modelling, prediction or forecast that suggest all might not be great; no matter how tight the level of uncertainty around the predictions might be; no matter how accurate might be the actual measurements of the current situation used in the modelling.

It was good to hear David Gauke be quite clear last night on what a _No Deal_ would mean - saying it would be very bad economically for the UK and indeed agreeing that there is no deal with the EU of any sort from which we will emerge better off in respect of our trade with and through the EU.  And as firm as Barry Gardiner was on 'honouring the vote' (for the time being and unless...) he too was clear that we were going to be worse off - but that that is what the electorate voted for.  We - the Great British public - voted to leave the EU with a full understanding that we would be worse off?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunately writing it off as irrelevant is just the modus operandi of many who voted to Leave and will not hear of any risk, issue or problem associated with leaving - no matter how firm the basis for any modelling, prediction or forecast that suggest all might not be great.

it was good to hear David Gauke be quite clear last night on what a No Deal would mean - saying it would be very bad economically for the UK and indeed agreeing that there is no deal with the EU of any sort from which we will emerge better off in respect of our trade with and through the EU.
		
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It is irrelevant though - itâ€™s just a poll , the vote has happened and the result was given - any poll since is irrelevant , itâ€™s just a poll - itâ€™s not anything beyond that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

IanM said:



			I didnt see the programme.... but in keeping with the BBC, I understand the "panel" was three Remainers to one Leaver...  as is QT every week. (and a Remain "chair")   Maybe that's a coincidence!   You'd think 2 and 2 from each side would be compulsory...but of course they are not even pretending to be impartial
		
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Farage in his desperation was trying to suggest that 3 Remain vs 1 leave 'panellist' somehow influenced the survey results.  LOL. 

And as KG-M pointed out - both Gauke and Gardiner are both now very much 'honour the vote'.  Only Caroline Lucas was for a 'further vote' on the outcome of the negotiations.  If the Tories had wanted they could have put up Brilliant Boris or Rees-Mogg - but they chose not to.  So don't blame Ch4.


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## Hobbit (Nov 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunately writing it off as irrelevant or inaccurate is just the modus operandi of many who voted to Leave and will not hear of any risk, issue or problem associated with leaving - no matter how firm the basis for any modelling, prediction or forecast that suggest all might not be great; no matter how tight the level of uncertainty around the predictions might be; no matter how accurate might be the actual measurements of the current situation used in the modelling.

It was good to hear David Gauke be quite clear last night on what a _No Deal_ would mean - saying it would be very bad economically for the UK and indeed agreeing that there is no deal with the EU of any sort from which we will emerge better off in respect of our trade with and through the EU.  And as firm as Barry Gardiner was on 'honouring the vote' (for the time being and unless...) he too was clear that we were going to be worse off - but that that is what the electorate voted for.  We - the Great British public - voted to leave the EU with a full understanding that we would be worse off?
		
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It also very interesting to hear the same concerns in both the German and French parliaments re a No Deal. And Spain's contingency plans for a No Deal...? They are doing nothing. Absolutely nothing. As far as Spain is concerned they will sign their own reciprocal agreements. 

I wonder if the EU Commission is really representing each government of the EU27, or just upholding its own principle whatever the cost?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It is irrelevant though - itâ€™s just a poll , the vote has happened and the result was given - any poll since is irrelevant , itâ€™s just a poll - itâ€™s not anything beyond that.
		
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It is an indication of where public opinion currently sits.  And that is of value.  If a similar survey in say 3 months time were to show 60/40 against leaving, do we bash on regardless of the evidence that the public _might_ have changed it's mind - changed it's mind having become more educated in, and understanding of, what Leaving the EU would _actually_ mean and the impact Leaving would _likely_ have on their lives?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			It also very interesting to hear the same concerns in both the German and French parliaments re a No Deal. And Spain's contingency plans for a No Deal...? They are doing nothing. Absolutely nothing. As far as Spain is concerned they will sign their own reciprocal agreements.

I wonder if the EU Commission is really representing each government of the EU27, or just upholding its own principle whatever the cost?
		
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The EU negotiators are upholding the EU's rules - as the advisor to the EU negotiators made clear last night.  The EU27 countries have signed up to the rules - they might expect the negotiators to hold the line on the rules they have signed up to.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is an indication of where public opinion currently sits.  And that is of value.  If a similar survey in say 3 months time were to show 60/40 against leaving, do we bash on regardless of the evidence that the public _might_ have changed it's mind - changed it's mind having become more educated in, and understanding of, what Leaving the EU would _actually_ mean and the impact Leaving would _likely_ have on their lives?
		
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If , might , likely , ?! 

All unknowns- how long do we keep going ? You could have a Poll every week and it can swing one way or the other 

Just before the actual vote polls were suggesting a landslide victory for remain yet the vote was to leave so the poll was incorrect - the important â€œpollâ€ was the actual vote which meant we leave the EU - simple as that , itâ€™s now up to the polticians to work out how best to do that 

And Iâ€™m someone who doesnâ€™t want to leave the EU so you canâ€™t point a label at me - the poll is irrelevant just like any poll that happens now


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## Hobbit (Nov 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The EU negotiators are upholding the EU's rules - as the advisor to the EU negotiators made clear last night.  The EU27 countries have signed up to the rules - they might expect the negotiators to hold the line on the rules they have signed up to.
		
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All well and good Hugh but that ignores pretty much everything in my post. The 2 main players are having a torrid time in their own parliaments over this, and several countries, not just Spain, have said they will sign their own agreements.


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## Dando (Nov 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is an indication of where public opinion currently sits.  And that is of value.  If a similar survey in say 3 months time were to show 60/40 against leaving, do we bash on regardless of the evidence that the public _might_ have changed it's mind - changed it's mind having become more educated in, and understanding of, what Leaving the EU would _actually_ mean and the impact Leaving would _likely_ have on their lives?
		
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yes we do carry on and leave as that's what was voted for at the time the vote was held.

Its tough if the public have changed their minds and I am sure there are some remainers who now wished they voted to leave but I guess you will ignore that


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2018)

As SILH is so keen on polls being used as guiding lights I presume he would be happy with bringing back capital punishment.

Or are we only looking at selective polls.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			All well and good Hugh but that ignores pretty much everything in my post. The 2 main players are having a torrid time in their own parliaments over this, and several countries, not just Spain, have said they will sign their own agreements.
		
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which is something that the EU will just have to deal with


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			As SILH is so keen on polls being used as guiding lights I presume he would be happy with bringing back capital punishment.

Or are we only looking at selective polls.
		
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Leaving the EU has got nothing to do with death penalty.  We should not have had a referendum on such a hugely difficult and contentious subject as leaving or remaining in EU.  But we are where we are with that - we've gone down the referendum route and therefore the ongoing opinion of the UK electorate on that has direct relevance.  

We should not have a referendum on the death penalty.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2018)

meanwhile the backstop - what any deal May have cobbled together will fall on.

So the little boy who stuck his finger in the dam is waiting until someone comes along with an idea how to fix it and fixes it.  Will he have said that he'd keep his finger in the dam until school-time the next day and then he'll pull his finger out?  I think not - not unless there was someone else about who could immediately stick his finger in the hole - until someone comes along with an idea how to fix it and fixes it.  And so it would go on.

Yet that is in essence what our government expects the EU to sign up to.  The UK will stay in a/the customs union with the EU - not until a solution comes along and the issue is fixed - but until some arbitrary date when the UK will walk away from the Customs Union.  And if no solution has been arrived at, and a fix is not in place, at that point in time - then what?  What?


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Leaving the EU has got nothing to do with death penalty.  We should not have had a referendum on such a hugely difficult and contentious subject as leaving or remaining in EU.  But we are where we are with that - we've gone down the referendum route and therefore the ongoing opinion of the UK electorate on that has direct relevance. 

We should not have a referendum on the death penalty.
		
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Nobody asked for one, however the last poll on capital punishment suggested that it should be bought back.  You suggested that your swayed by polls and action should be taken on them.


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			As SILH is so keen on polls being used as guiding lights I presume he would be happy with bringing back capital punishment.

Or are we only looking at selective polls.
		
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Interesting question. Can you give me the link to the poll in question. I genuinely can't find it ðŸ‘


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## drdel (Nov 6, 2018)

jp5 said:



			20,000 as a survey sample size is very large, much more than for the usual polls, and is statistically very likely to be accurate.

The survey really has no importance, but it's wrong to write it off as inaccurate.
		
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But it can be skewed by, time of day(workers:  not home), 

Method: land lines not used by many,

Email: not used as much by elder people.

I could easily conduct a survey and by carefully choosing method, regions/post code, etc pretty much guarantee the result.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Interesting question. Can you give me the link to the poll in question. I genuinely can't find it ðŸ‘
		
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Take your pick, google  capitol punishment poll or https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/08/13/capital-punishment-50-years-favoured/

Interesting to see that opinions in Trumps USA are slowly changing.


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Take your pick, google  capitol punishment poll or https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/08/13/capital-punishment-50-years-favoured/

Interesting to see that opinions in Trumps USA are slowly changing.
		
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But that's over 4 yrs old and shows a downward trend. Is there anything more recent?


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## Dando (Nov 6, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Nobody asked for one, however the last poll on capital punishment suggested that it should be bought back.  You suggested that your swayed by polls and action should be taken on them.
		
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Itâ€™s clear that heâ€™s only interested in polls or news that go along with his view


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			But that's over 4 yrs old and shows a downward trend. Is there anything more recent?
		
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Only ones from papers and the media ( as per a google search) that I can find, not sure what age has to do with it, or is their a suggestion that if it's not current it's irrelevant.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 6, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			Ch 4, well known remain backing station.
		
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Can't wait for this one 

https://order-order.com/2018/11/06/first-look-channel-4s-brexit-drama/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Only ones from papers and the media ( as per a google search) that I can find, not sure what age has to do with it, or is their a suggestion that if it's not current it's irrelevant.
		
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Age is relevant if the graph is showing a trend. There was a report in 2015 that stated that support for the death penalty was now a minority. I don't know what the support level is now. I'm genuinely interested but can't find anything.


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## Hobbit (Nov 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Age is relevant if the graph is showing a trend. There was a report in 2015 that stated that support for the death penalty was now a minority. I don't know what the support level is now. I'm genuinely interested but can't find anything.
		
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56% for the death penalty.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1606/death-penalty.aspx


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			56% for the death penalty.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1606/death-penalty.aspx

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Some interesting answers in that poll. Thank you.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			56% for the death penalty.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1606/death-penalty.aspx

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I'm not sure that is a U.K. Result.


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## jp5 (Nov 6, 2018)

drdel said:



			But it can be skewed by, time of day(workers:  not home),

Method: land lines not used by many,

Email: not used as much by elder people.

I could easily conduct a survey and by carefully choosing method, regions/post code, etc pretty much guarantee the result.
		
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Obviously polling companies factor in those differences, otherwise they wouldn't be a very good polling company.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Obviously polling companies factor in those differences, otherwise they wouldn't be a very good polling company.
		
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Going on the last few years, there not.


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## jp5 (Nov 6, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Going on the last few years, there not.
		
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Polls are statistically more accurate than ever.

Never going to give the same result as a public vote, but to be generally within a few percentage points on sampling a small section of the population takes a lot of skill.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2018)

Been very wrong over the last couple of elections and the referendum. 

I think these days a lot of people when surveyed give an opposite answer just for the hell of it.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 6, 2018)

Finding it mildly amusing some seem to think the result of an opinion poll ,of thousands, is a basis to argue for a 'proper ' vote involving millions to be re-run or overturned...

In fact it's bloomin ' hilarious....


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## drdel (Nov 6, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Obviously polling companies factor in those differences, otherwise they wouldn't be a very good polling company.
		
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Don't be silly, the output is usually directly related to the interests of "he who sign the cheque"


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Interesting question. Can you give me the link to the poll in question. I genuinely can't find it ðŸ‘
		
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post 1,323.


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## bluewolf (Nov 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			post 1,323.
		
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My request wasn't aimed at you. That's why I didn't quote you. ðŸ‘


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## spongebob59 (Nov 7, 2018)

So Labours postion now seems to force a GE ?

More
Robert Peston Retweeted Keir Starmer
Here @*Keir_Starmer* confirms Labour will whip its MPs to oppose whatever Brexit deal @*theresa_may* finally negotiates - because the Political Declaration on the future relationship between UK and EU will be impenetrable fudge, namely a â€œblind Brexitâ€


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## Foxholer (Nov 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:





Old Skier said:



			Only ones from papers and the media ( as per a google search) that I can find, not sure what age has to do with it, or is their a
Age is relevant if the graph is showing a trend. There was a report in *2015 that stated that support for the death penalty was now a minority*. I don't know what the support level is now. I'm genuinely interested but can't find anything.
		
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Hobbit said:



			56% for the death penalty.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1606/death-penalty.aspx

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suggestion that if it's not current it's irrelevant.
		
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There certainly seems to be a trend - reducing 'for' and increasing 'against' - though majority still 'for'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Finding it mildly amusing some seem to think the result of an opinion poll ,of thousands, is a basis to argue for a 'proper ' vote involving millions to be re-run or overturned...

In fact it's bloomin ' hilarious....
		
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I'm not laughing.

It's a basis for there being value in tracking pubic opinion as the government stumbles towards a deal and the electorate become more informed about what leaving the EU will actually mean to them in their day-to-day life - and as they understand what little such as 'regaining control' and 'sovereignty' will actually mean to them in the context of a country having to negotiate deals in a big competitive world out there - a world that is light years away from the world we lived in before we joined the EU.  There is no going back to these times.  No matter how much some might wish it.  That time has gone.


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## bobmac (Nov 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not laughing.

It's a basis for there being value in tracking pubic opinion as the government stumbles towards a deal and the electorate become more informed about *what leaving the EU will actually mean to them in their day-to-day life *- and as they understand what little such as 'regaining control' and 'sovereignty' will *actually mean* to them in the context of a country having to negotiate deals in a big competitive world out there - a world that is light years away from the world we lived in before we joined the EU.  There is no going back to these times.  No matter how much some might wish it.  That time has gone.
		
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How do you know what will actually happen?
No-one knows.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 7, 2018)




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## IanM (Nov 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			and as they understand what little such as 'regaining control' and 'sovereignty' will actually mean to them in the context of a country having to negotiate deals in a big competitive world out there - a world that is light years away from the world we lived in before we joined the EU.
		
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On the basis of this... I am really curious.  What do/did you do for a living?   Do you actually believe that the UK is not capable of running it's own affairs and that UK Business cannot operate without the EU's Paternal Influence?  

Wow.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2018)

bobmac said:



			How do you know what will actually happen?
No-one knows.
		
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For goodness sake - if you choose to ignore every forecast - no matter how solid a basis of fact the forecast or prediction is based upon - then I cannot help you.  

You might as well choose to ignore everything that is written or said about what might happen tomorrow because you cannot live tomorrow today, and so cannot prove that it will 100% happen.  But we do not live our lives that way.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2018)

IanM said:



			On the basis of this... I am really curious.  What do/did you do for a living?   Do you actually believe that the UK is not capable of running it's own affairs and that UK Business cannot operate without the EU's Paternal Influence?

Wow.
		
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I am not saying that I don't believe the UK can operate outside of the EU.  Of course it can.

But I do not believe that the UK can be extricated from the EU and the Global Economy with which the UK has wide-ranging links to through the EU without significant damage to the UK and the UK economy.  Where is the evidence that proves incontrovertibly your assertion that the UK will flourish.

Economics aside - many of the promises made by Leave and the expectations raised amongst many Leave voters will I fear not materialise and those Leave voters will feel very hard done by - especially when they lose their jobs.

But hey.  Why bother with all those experts telling us what they think might happen when Leave voters know better.

nb As you asked.  I will add that in one of my jobs I did a lot of very detailed mathematical/statistical modelling.  I have a pretty good idea how these things work; I understand about confidence levels and modelling uncertainty/certainty around the states and the errors in the states you are are modelling and are using in making predictions; how actual measurements can be incorporated into your modelling to improve your estimates and reduce your uncertainties; how adjustments can be built in to take account of expected errors in these measurements. Hw measurements can then be used as time goes on to adjust and correct your estimates to improve your predictions. 

So yes.  I think I have a reasonably good idea about how modelling and forecasting works.  So when the vast majority of modelling experts and forecasters start telling a similar story about the UK economy post-Brexit I will tend to err on believing them rather than believe those who build their predictions on no more than hopes and aspirations.


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## IanM (Nov 7, 2018)

Actually you did say that.

You also seem to think we are "extricating" ourselves from the EU and Global Economy.  That means you clearly dont understand what is going on, or you are on a deliberate wind up.    

Ignore button pressed.


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## bobmac (Nov 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For goodness sake - if you choose to ignore every forecast - no matter how solid a basis of fact the forecast or prediction is based upon - then I cannot help you. 

.
		
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I neither need nor want your help thanks very much.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I neither need nor want your help thanks very much.
		
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well don;t bother asking me


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 7, 2018)

IanM said:



			Actually you did say that.

You also seem to think we are "extricating" ourselves from the EU and Global Economy.  That means you clearly dont understand what is going on, or *you are on a deliberate wind up.* 

Ignore button pressed.
		
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I think that's been common knowledge for a while.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			I think that's been common knowledge for a while.
		
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You think so...well you know what I do?  I ask simple questions about what Leave voters expect to happen in the event of such as a _No Deal._  And I just get dismissed.  I do not pretend to know a lot about this stuff (unlike some) but I ask fairly simple questions - and I get no answers based upon and facts or substance.  I do however get plenty of assertions and beliefs.

And so I could ask all Leave voters on here whether they think a _No Deal_ would be BAD for the UK economy, BAD as in the way most commentators, forecasters, economists and MPs think it will be.  And I'm thinking that as usual I would get a massive denial that it will be.  Why?  Because we can't tell the future....jeeez.

Well you know what - you can pretty much tell the future over some things with pretty much 100% certainly. 

So I predict that I will be living in the same house tomorrow night as I am tonight. I can do that because I know that most of the events that would make that not the case are ALL very *unlikely *to happen. And I can take a measurement on that (a very accurate one as I usually know where I am) through checking where I am at midnight, and again at 6am, and again at midday tomorrow and again at 6pm tomorrow.  And if each check confirms that I am still in the house then the uncertainty of me not being here tomorrow evening comes down ever more - to almost 100% certainty and a very precise prediction of the future.

That is how forecasting works.  And that is what is being denied by so many ever-so-clever Leave voters - many who it seems to me are frankly in denial or too sure of themselves to admit that all might not be as great as they might have hoped or were told it would be.  Where are those unicorns when you need them.


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2018)

The difference between a remainer and a leave.

Remainers know exactly what is going to happen in the future.
Leavers have yet to become friends with Dr Who.

If your so clever SILH, what is the future forecast for the EU and will it survive in its present form.


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## adam6177 (Nov 7, 2018)

Can you imagine if people never had the gusto to make changes because they were scared of the unknown.... What amazing things might never had been achieved.


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## drdel (Nov 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You think so...well you know what I do?  I ask simple questions about what Leave voters expect to happen in the event of such as a _No Deal._  And I just get dismissed.  I do not pretend to know a lot about this stuff (unlike some) but I ask fairly simple questions - and I get no answers based upon and facts or substance.  I do however get plenty of assertions and beliefs.

And so I could ask all Leave voters on here whether they think a _No Deal_ would be BAD for the UK economy, BAD as in the way most commentators, forecasters, economists and MPs think it will be.  And I'm thinking that as usual I would get a massive denial that it will be.  Why?  Because we can't tell the future....jeeez.

Well you know what - you can pretty much tell the future over some things with pretty much 100% certainly.

So I predict that I will be living in the same house tomorrow night as I am tonight. I can do that because I know that most of the events that would make that not the case are ALL very *unlikely *to happen. And I can take a measurement on that (a very accurate one as I usually know where I am) through checking where I am at midnight, and again at 6am, and again at midday tomorrow and again at 6pm tomorrow.  And if each check confirms that I am still in the house then the uncertainty of me not being here tomorrow evening comes down ever more - to almost 100% certainty and a very precise prediction of the future.

*That is how forecasting works.*  And that is what is being denied by so many ever-so-clever Leave voters - many who it seems to me are frankly in denial or too sure of themselves to admit that all might not be as great as they might have hoped or were told it would be.  Where are those unicorns when you need them.
		
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*Wrong.* This last paragraph is just silly rhetoric

A forecast involves a review of the past - it *does not dictate* the future; the economists and others look at the future and what other extraneous influences will change and guide the future. In good businesses the senior management look forward and they plan: they do not blindly follow a forecast and sit around and moan as things change around them; as you would have the UK do. The EU is in its own, rather serious state of flux as many experts and politicians recognise - but It guess you assume its all going to continue on the same trajectory.

In business ALL forecasts are wrong because management will work hard, investing time, money and effort to ensure that they exceed expectations and/or mitigate adverse issues. Brexit will allow (depending on the no deal) the UK to be more agile in world trade and other matters. The EU's decision making mechanism is sub-optimal for many member states because its only driven by the self-interests of a few and the complex voting process introduces high cost, inertia and delay.

IMO, as an econometrician, I for one forecast that the UK will compete well in the wider world and do far better with it freedom for tax setting, trade relations, agile business strategies, innovation and investment stability.


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## bobmac (Nov 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You think so...well you know what I do?  I ask simple questions about what Leave voters expect to happen in the event of such as a _No Deal._  And I just get dismissed.  I do not pretend to know a lot about this stuff (unlike some) but I ask fairly simple questions - and *I get no answers based upon and facts or substance.  I do however get plenty of assertions and beliefs.*

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So you think its wrong for someone to base their opinions on assertions and beliefs with no facts or substance?


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## Fade and Die (Nov 7, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So you think its wrong for someone to base their opinions on assertions and beliefs with no facts or substance?
		
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Clever!ðŸ˜


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## Fade and Die (Nov 7, 2018)

Btw, the Government has responded to the â€˜Stop a possible second referendumâ€™ petition.... See below:


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/226071?reveal_response=yes


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## adam6177 (Nov 7, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Btw, the Government has responded to the â€˜Stop a possible second referendumâ€™ petition.... See below:


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/226071?reveal_response=yes

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That's great news, but I won't fully believe it until we're out ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not saying that I don't believe the UK can operate outside of the EU.  Of course it can.

But I do not believe that the UK can be extricated from the EU and the Global Economy with which the UK has wide-ranging links to through the EU without significant damage to the UK and the UK economy.  Where is the evidence that proves incontrovertibly your assertion that the UK will flourish.

Economics aside - many of the promises made by Leave and the expectations raised amongst many Leave voters will I fear not materialise and those Leave voters will feel very hard done by - especially when they lose their jobs.

But hey.  Why bother with all those experts telling us what they think might happen when Leave voters know better.

nb As you asked.  I will add that in one of my jobs I did a lot of very detailed mathematical/statistical modelling.  I have a pretty good idea how these things work; I understand about confidence levels and modelling uncertainty/certainty around the states and the errors in the states you are are modelling and are using in making predictions; how actual measurements can be incorporated into your modelling to improve your estimates and reduce your uncertainties; how adjustments can be built in to take account of expected errors in these measurements. Hw measurements can then be used as time goes on to adjust and correct your estimates to improve your predictions.

So yes.  I think I have a reasonably good idea about how modelling and forecasting works.  So when the vast majority of modelling experts and forecasters start telling a similar story about the UK economy post-Brexit I will tend to err on believing them rather than believe those who build their predictions on no more than hopes and aspirations.
		
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You cannot make any predictions on how well the UK will trade with the EU until the end of the negotiations. You do not understand what trade arrangements will be in place, this renders any attempt to model an output impossible.  We do have some impirical data available on how the UK currently trades outside the EU though and this makes up the majority of our trade.  Even though this trade with the Rest of the World is hampered by protectionist EU tariffs which we could reduce or even remove after Brexit.  Trade with the EU may be mainly Tariff free but that will be soon be made clear to us.

Keep calm and carry on until you/we understand the outcomes of negotiations.


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## Leftie (Nov 7, 2018)

drdel said:



			IMO, as an econometrician, I for one forecast that the UK will compete well in the wider world and do far better with it freedom for tax setting, trade relations, agile business strategies, innovation and investment stability.
		
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You're wasting your time mate.  You appear to be an expert on the wrong side of the fence so will be ignored by SILH, just like he ignores posts by those on here actually working on the negotiations and, we must assume, really know what they are talking about.

Let's face it, how can we take someone who believes in unicorns seriously?


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2018)

Surprise Suprise, Owen Jones talking sense:

"The Remain cause is sabotaged by a small, vocal arrogant clique who treat the referendum result as just mass stupidity and delusion, won through cheating, without understanding the anger that brought it about."


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## jp5 (Nov 8, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1060472540659879936
"I hadn't quite understood the full extent of this, but we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing"

The incompetence of those we are relying on would be funny if it wasn't so serious.


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## Foxholer (Nov 8, 2018)

drdel said:



			...
IMO, *as an econometrician, I for one forecast* that the UK will compete well in the wider world and do far better with it freedom for tax setting, trade relations, agile business strategies, innovation and investment stability.
		
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Well that puts the kybosh on the likelihood of it happening then!  I'm pretty sure almost no economic prediction has EVER been totally correct ('somewhere between roughly accurate and totally wrong' is a memorable quote!) irrespective of what (if any) tools are used to arrive at the prediction!

Oh and hasn't UK already got 'freedom for tax setting, trade relations, agile business strategies, innovation and investment stability'?! It's actually 'throwing away' a lot of valuable trade relations (all those ones negotiated on its behalf by/inconjunction with the EU) and standards and hoping that it can re-establish them itself.

As far as I can see, Brexit is NOT about improving UK's economy - which is actually likely to suffer, at least in the short term, simply because of the change. It's about who actually controls what happens in UK - from final say on legal matters to who can acually live, work and reside in UK!


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## adam6177 (Nov 8, 2018)

Surely the only fair way to compare leave and remain is to spend the next 45 years out of the EU and then see which one was better.


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## User62651 (Nov 8, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			Surely the only fair way to compare leave and remain is to spend the next 45 years out of the EU and then see which one was better.
		
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would you then compare 1973 -2018 'in EU' with the preceeeding 1927-1972 'before EU'. Comparing like with like is and will be impossible..........which will help both remain and leave determine that they were both correct in some years time!


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## adam6177 (Nov 8, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			would you then compare 1973 -2018 'in EU' with the preceeeding 1927-1972 'before EU'. Comparing like with like is and will be impossible..........which will help both remain and leave determine that they were both correct in some years time!

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No, because that doesnt fit my agenda


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## drdel (Nov 8, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Well that puts the kybosh on the likelihood of it happening then!  I'm pretty sure almost no economic prediction has EVER been totally correct ('somewhere between roughly accurate and totally wrong' is a memorable quote!) irrespective of what (if any) tools are used to arrive at the prediction!

Oh and hasn't UK already got 'freedom for tax setting, trade relations, agile business strategies, innovation and investment stability'?! It's actually 'throwing away' a lot of valuable trade relations (all those ones negotiated on its behalf by/inconjunction with the EU) and standards and hoping that it can re-establish them itself.

As far as I can see, Brexit is NOT about improving UK's economy - which is actually likely to suffer, at least in the short term, simply because of the change. It's about who actually controls what happens in UK - from final say on legal matters to who can acually live, work and reside in UK!
		
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You must be right, but just in case you're mistaken I'd ask that you take a minute to consider why it is countries like Australia, USA etc. etc are keen to do advantageous trading deals if for the last 40 odd years we could have done these deals anyway!!


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## bluewolf (Nov 8, 2018)

drdel said:



			You must be right, but just in case you're mistaken I'd ask that you take a minute to consider why it is countries like Australia, USA etc. etc are keen to do advantageous trading deals if for the last 40 odd years we could have done these deals anyway!!
		
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Advantageous to who?


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## hors limite (Nov 9, 2018)

I made this post months ago and didn't get any sensible replies from our Brexit enthusiasts.

"I'm sorry but when the narrow majority voted to leave things were very different. There was the Â£350mn/week Brexit dividend that has now disappeared. We were told that negotiating an exit would be easy and that trade with the EU wouldn't suffer - nobody mentioned the Â£40bn divorce bill.. We were told that the rest of the world would be hammering on our door with new trade deals. At the same time, many people who know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do have been warning about the dangers of no deal or a "hard" Brexit. They are in their multitudes and range from the boss of Airbus, to the Governor of the B of E, to the Chancellor and all we are expected to believe that they are somehow conspirators in "Project Fear". We are told that the EU has been holding back UK exporters from developing their markets - Germany seem to manage spectacularly well. If that wasn't enough we've got Rees- Mogg telling us it might take 50 years to see any benefit. The whole bloody shambles is costing Â£3bn which could be a lot better spent elsewhere.
The benefits from Brexit are always intangible - taking back control, ridding ourselves of EU shackles. Spare us Minford, but can anyone point out what the benefits of Brexit might be?"

Nothing has changed.The Brexiteers keep on telling us that all the leading businessmen, economists, think tanks, business organisations are still peddling "Project Fear". The brexiteers are taking their tactics from Trump and even that fails to embarrass them. Not to mention the company that they keep - Johnson, Fox, Farage, Banks, Davies, Rees-Mogg - just listing their names makes me shudder. One of their very few cheerleaders with any sort of credibility, Dyson, has announced that such is his sense of patriotism that his new cars as well as all his other products will be made in SE Asia - you couldn't make it up.
Then we have the self appointed experts on this forum who dismiss an army of accredited authorities but deludedly invite us to believe that their knowledge is somehow superior.
If , from this shambolic process, a deal emerged, that didn't damage the economy and lead to job losses, no one would be more pleased than me. However, if it all goes to Hell in a handbasket, I hope that the Brexiteers will  take ownership of the consequences.


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2018)

Perhaps because Remainers want to believe what they hear and Leavers want to believe what they hear.

Try balance and you might get an answer, you seem to ignore the experts that predict that there will be a benefit from leaving in the long term.


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## User62651 (Nov 9, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I made this post months ago and didn't get any sensible replies from our Brexit enthusiasts.

"I'm sorry but when the narrow majority voted to leave things were very different. There was the Â£350mn/week Brexit dividend that has now disappeared. We were told that negotiating an exit would be easy and that trade with the EU wouldn't suffer - nobody mentioned the Â£40bn divorce bill.. We were told that the rest of the world would be hammering on our door with new trade deals. At the same time, many people who know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do have been warning about the dangers of no deal or a "hard" Brexit. They are in their multitudes and range from the boss of Airbus, to the Governor of the B of E, to the Chancellor and all we are expected to believe that they are somehow conspirators in "Project Fear". We are told that the EU has been holding back UK exporters from developing their markets - Germany seem to manage spectacularly well. If that wasn't enough we've got Rees- Mogg telling us it might take 50 years to see any benefit. The whole bloody shambles is costing Â£3bn which could be a lot better spent elsewhere.
The benefits from Brexit are always intangible - taking back control, ridding ourselves of EU shackles. Spare us Minford, but can anyone point out what the benefits of Brexit might be?"

Nothing has changed.The Brexiteers keep on telling us that all the leading businessmen, economists, think tanks, business organisations are still peddling "Project Fear". The brexiteers are taking their tactics from Trump and even that fails to embarrass them. Not to mention the company that they keep - Johnson, Fox, Farage, Banks, Davies, Rees-Mogg - just listing their names makes me shudder. One of their very few cheerleaders with any sort of credibility, Dyson, has announced that such is his sense of patriotism that his new cars as well as all his other products will be made in SE Asia - you couldn't make it up.
Then we have the self appointed experts on this forum who dismiss an army of accredited authorities but deludedly invite us to believe that their knowledge is somehow superior.
If , from this shambolic process, a deal emerged, that didn't damage the economy and lead to job losses, no one would be more pleased than me. However, if it all goes to Hell in a handbasket, I hope that the Brexiteers will  take ownership of the consequences.
		
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Whilst I generally agree with that summation, remember Leave won the vote! How do we get past that fact? As a Government Tories have to enact (or be seen to enact) the promise of their manifesto and uphold democracy. Shocking position for the country to find itself in where democracy is actually harming us.

However democracy is also working against itself in that more democracy (from commons) is needed to get the original democratic vote (by public) through.
from Bloomberg today - this is where May's deal stands, even if she gets some kind of deal with EU, she has to get past this, not easy and a bit ironic given the reasonable commons majority she inherited from Cameron then blew a year later at her own behest to now rely on DUP, Labour rebels and others, mainly for being a Maybot -


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## Foxholer (Nov 9, 2018)

bluewolf said:





drdel said:



			You must be right, but just in case you're mistaken I'd ask that you take a minute to consider why it is countries like Australia, USA etc. etc are keen to do advantageous trading deals if for the last 40 odd years we could have done these deals anyway!!
		
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Advantageous to who?
		
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Hopefully/surely both - otherwise there'd be no point doing the deal!
I DO know that there was an 'advantageous' - for both sides - deal that UK had with New Zealand for Butter that got the chop, perhaps after a certain 'wind-down' period. Mind you, that was actually the trigger for NZ to 'get more into the real world' so not necessarily a complete 'negative'. And, from memory, part of the (or maybe the entire) reason it had to be chopped was that NZ producers were deemed to be being subsidised by the NZ Government.

It does seem that deals will be able to be made. But that will not happen immediately and, by international trade law, can only ever be as good as the deal between the EU and the other country.


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## drdel (Nov 9, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I made this post months ago and didn't get any sensible replies from our Brexit enthusiasts.

"I'm sorry but when the narrow majority voted to leave things were very different. There was the Â£350mn/week Brexit dividend that has now disappeared. We were told that negotiating an exit would be easy and that trade with the EU wouldn't suffer - nobody mentioned the Â£40bn divorce bill.. We were told that the rest of the world would be hammering on our door with new trade deals. At the same time, many people who know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do have been warning about the dangers of no deal or a "hard" Brexit. They are in their multitudes and range from the boss of Airbus, to the Governor of the B of E, to the Chancellor and all we are expected to believe that they are somehow conspirators in "Project Fear". We are told that the EU has been holding back UK exporters from developing their markets - Germany seem to manage spectacularly well. If that wasn't enough we've got Rees- Mogg telling us it might take 50 years to see any benefit. The whole bloody shambles is costing Â£3bn which could be a lot better spent elsewhere.
The benefits from Brexit are always intangible - taking back control, ridding ourselves of EU shackles. Spare us Minford, but can anyone point out what the benefits of Brexit might be?"

Nothing has changed.The Brexiteers keep on telling us that all the leading businessmen, economists, think tanks, business organisations are still peddling "Project Fear". The brexiteers are taking their tactics from Trump and even that fails to embarrass them. Not to mention the company that they keep - Johnson, Fox, Farage, Banks, Davies, Rees-Mogg - just listing their names makes me shudder. One of their very few cheerleaders with any sort of credibility, Dyson, has announced that such is his sense of patriotism that his new cars as well as all his other products will be made in SE Asia - you couldn't make it up.
Then we have the self appointed experts on this forum who dismiss an army of accredited authorities but deludedly invite us to believe that their knowledge is somehow superior.
If , from this shambolic process, a deal emerged, that didn't damage the economy and lead to job losses, no one would be more pleased than me. However, if it all goes to Hell in a handbasket, I hope that the Brexiteers will  take ownership of the consequences.
		
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Apart from a moan I see little actual contribution to the debate in your post. 

While you moan about the UK's decision you might look at what is happening in the member states. Many of the many net-takers are economically unsound and will require much more support from the very few net contributors at a time when the EU growth is slowing and the 'centre's' management costs are growing well above sustainable levels. This would mean that if the UK remained our contribution would grow dramatically and be well above our own economic growth projections. The consequences would be the UK's debt levels would rise and domestic spending would need to fall very fast. 

Yet despite the obvious direction of the EU's future the remainers who wish to be shackled to and increasingly Federal arrangement are quite happy for us to blindly follow this silly dream led by Juncker and Macron et al. Even Barnier's speech to rally the troops yesterday was ignored by many delegates who kept talking while he spoke - Merkel and her entourage left halfway through!

Dyson made his decision because the European (not EU) market is mature with slow growth and the new markets for his car are developing elsewhere add to the fact he can get cheaper production facilities and your assertion its related to worries Brexit  is baseless.

The future is driven by global businesses, many who have an annual turnover more than many nations - they do not whitter on about  the internal wrangles of minnows in the EU - they plan around them. The UK must re-discover it competitive focus and operate on a global stage with global players and investment - staying in the EU (in its present form) will only ensure we waste more and more resources on internal (EU) arguments and support - in a slow but sure race to the bottom.


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## bluewolf (Nov 9, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Hopefully/surely both - otherwise there'd be no point doing the deal!
I DO know that there was an 'advantageous' - for both sides - deal that UK had with New Zealand for Butter that got the chop, perhaps after a certain 'wind-down' period. Mind you, that was actually the trigger for NZ to 'get more into the real world' so not necessarily a complete 'negative'. And, from memory, part of the (or maybe the entire) reason it had to be chopped was that NZ producers were deemed to be being subsidised by the NZ Government.

It does seem that deals will be able to be made. But that will not happen immediately and, by international trade law, can only ever be as good as the deal between the EU and the other country.
		
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And, to paraphrase, if a bad deal is better than no deal?

Just exactly what kind of deal are we expecting to make with economies bigger than ours. What will we have to sacrifice? 

I'm not sure I like our position in these deals. It's almost as though we'd be better off if we were in some sort of trading partnership or bloc. Maybe with close geographical and socio-political neighbours. We might want to look into something like that ðŸ¤”


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 9, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			It does seem that deals will be able to be made. But that will not happen immediately and, by international trade law, can only ever be as good as the deal between the EU and the other country.
		
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I'm not sure the last bit of your post is correct. My understanding is that we can negotiate whatever trade deals we like as long as we offer the same terms to all countries. So we could agree a deal with New Zealand that is better than the one they have with the EU but both sides would then have to offer the same agreement to the EU and every other country for those products. Or have I got that wrong?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I made this post months ago and didn't get any sensible replies from our Brexit enthusiasts.

"I'm sorry but when the narrow majority voted to leave things were very different. There was the Â£350mn/week Brexit dividend that has now disappeared. We were told that negotiating an exit would be easy and that trade with the EU wouldn't suffer - nobody mentioned the Â£40bn divorce bill.. We were told that the rest of the world would be hammering on our door with new trade deals. At the same time, many people who know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do have been warning about the dangers of no deal or a "hard" Brexit. They are in their multitudes and range from the boss of Airbus, to the Governor of the B of E, to the Chancellor and all we are expected to believe that they are somehow conspirators in "Project Fear". We are told that the EU has been holding back UK exporters from developing their markets - Germany seem to manage spectacularly well. If that wasn't enough we've got Rees- Mogg telling us it might take 50 years to see any benefit. The whole bloody shambles is costing Â£3bn which could be a lot better spent elsewhere.
The benefits from Brexit are always intangible - taking back control, ridding ourselves of EU shackles. Spare us Minford, but can anyone point out what the benefits of Brexit might be?"

Nothing has changed.The Brexiteers keep on telling us that all the leading businessmen, economists, think tanks, business organisations are still peddling "Project Fear". The brexiteers are taking their tactics from Trump and even that fails to embarrass them. Not to mention the company that they keep - Johnson, Fox, Farage, Banks, Davies, Rees-Mogg - just listing their names makes me shudder. One of their very few cheerleaders with any sort of credibility, Dyson, has announced that such is his sense of patriotism that his new cars as well as all his other products will be made in SE Asia - you couldn't make it up.
Then we have the self appointed experts on this forum who dismiss an army of accredited authorities but deludedly invite us to believe that their knowledge is somehow superior.
If , from this shambolic process, a deal emerged, that didn't damage the economy and lead to job losses, no one would be more pleased than me. However, if it all goes to Hell in a handbasket, I hope that the Brexiteers will  take ownership of the consequences.
		
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Your post has been ignored due to it being so one sided and ironic, you suffer from the blinkered view that you accuse others of. Try a little more balance and you may be taken seriously.


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## Foxholer (Nov 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure the last bit of your post is correct. My understanding is that we can negotiate whatever trade deals we like as long as we offer the same terms to all countries....
		
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Deals can be different. But 'most favoured nation' countries need to be at the best rates. So not 'all countries'...only 'most favoured nation' ones. I tried to get that across in the post you quoted, but may not have done so.


ColchesterFC said:



			...So we could agree a deal with New Zealand that is better than the one they have with the EU but both sides would then have to offer the same agreement to the EU and every other country for those products. Or have I got that wrong?
		
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Again, only the 'tarrifing' nation needs to offer the deal to other countries, and then only to their 'most favoured nation' list. 

There is currently no trade agreement between EU and New Zealand, though negotiations (for a Free Trade Agreement) have started. 

So a UK-New Zealand deal would have no effect on/for the EU. Likewise, if the EU-NZ FTA magically happened tomorrow, it would not be relevant to UK post-Brexit (and nor would the existing EU-non-EU-country/areas agreements. UK would have to start negotiation and/or use WTO schdules.


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## User62651 (Nov 9, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post has been ignored due to it being so one sided and ironic, you suffer from the blinkered view that you accuse others of. Try a little more balance and you may be taken seriously.
		
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He said it didn't get any sensible replies, not ignored. Also it's deadly serious. It might have been blinkered if posted in June 2016 right after the vote when there was some optimism for Brexit based upon the false promises and lack of detail it gave, but it was posted earlier in 2018, some 2 years into the process when it's clear a lot of the leave argument was based on thin air and emotions, little fact and of course now a shambles. Many will totally agree with what he originally posted.

Maybe you should read this article by an FT columnist for some balance of your own? Makes for difficult reading, but most likely right. Suppose it's just project fear spin too?
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...D_L0pAf5AgzYxFPU_sCsEFHMuSY2lSK9DIAjR-yGPy0Bs


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 9, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Deals can be different. But 'most favoured nation' countries need to be at the best rates. So not 'all countries'...only 'most favoured nation' ones. I tried to get that across in the post you quoted, but may not have done so.
Again, only the 'tarrifing' nation needs to offer the deal to other countries, and then only to their 'most favoured nation' list.

There is currently no trade agreement between EU and New Zealand, though negotiations (for a Free Trade Agreement) have started.

So a UK-New Zealand deal would have no effect on/for the EU. Likewise, if the EU-NZ FTA magically happened tomorrow, it would not be relevant to UK post-Brexit (and nor would the existing EU-non-EU-country/areas agreements. UK would have to start negotiation and/or use WTO schdules.
		
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Thanks for that info. So does the UK get to decide which countries it has as a "favoured nation" or is there a group of countries that if you add one you have to add them all? For example could we add every country in the world as a "favoured nation" but refuse to add the EU27 and slap ridiculously high tariffs on their goods?


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## hors limite (Nov 9, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps because Remainers want to believe what they hear and Leavers want to believe what they hear.

Try balance and you might get an answer, you seem to ignore the experts that predict that there will be a benefit from leaving in the long term.
		
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WHEN? Rees - Mogg himself talked about a wait of 50 years.


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## hors limite (Nov 9, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post has been ignored due to it being so one sided and ironic, you suffer from the blinkered view that you accuse others of. Try a little more balance and you may be taken seriously.
		
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 Brexitspeak for I don't have an answer?


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## hors limite (Nov 9, 2018)

drdel said:



			Apart from a moan I see little actual contribution to the debate in your post.

While you moan about the UK's decision you might look at what is happening in the member states. Many of the many net-takers are economically unsound and will require much more support from the very few net contributors at a time when the EU growth is slowing and the 'centre's' management costs are growing well above sustainable levels. This would mean that if the UK remained our contribution would grow dramatically and be well above our own economic growth projections. The consequences would be the UK's debt levels would rise and domestic spending would need to fall very fast.

Yet despite the obvious direction of the EU's future the remainers who wish to be shackled to and increasingly Federal arrangement are quite happy for us to blindly follow this silly dream led by Juncker and Macron et al. Even Barnier's speech to rally the troops yesterday was ignored by many delegates who kept talking while he spoke - Merkel and her entourage left halfway through!

Dyson made his decision because the European (not EU) market is mature with slow growth and the new markets for his car are developing elsewhere add to the fact he can get cheaper production facilities and your assertion its related to worries Brexit  is baseless.

The future is driven by global businesses, many who have an annual turnover more than many nations - they do not whitter on about  the internal wrangles of minnows in the EU - they plan around them. The UK must re-discover it competitive focus and operate on a global stage with global players and investment - staying in the EU (in its present form) will only ensure we waste more and more resources on internal (EU) arguments and support - in a slow but sure race to the bottom.
		
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OK
Point 1 You forecast increased budget contributions. In 2016 our net EU contribution was about Â£8bn out of our total budget spend of Â£800bn. If our contribution doubled, the effect on debt would hardly  be significant. At the same time, Brexit will lead to a slowdown in growth with a reduced tax take. Will these losses outweigh the cost of EU membership? Also, let's not forget the Â£40bn divorce bill that would have taken care of our contributions for a few years.

Point 2 Federalisation. Macron, Juncker and Barnier do not determine the future direction of the EU. Federalisation has been talked about for years and that's all it has been - talk. There are pressures in the EU and none of us know how things will work out.

Point 3 Dyson. I fully understand his personal motives. I just don't understand how he can be a credible Brexit advocate. If he was saying, throw off the shackles and me and my ilk will invest in the new sunlit UK uplands, I could see how that would work. Instead, he is setting an example for taking investment overseas. As for the markets for his new electric car, they exist primarily in the sophisticated "green" markets of the EU.

Point 4 Global stage. As I said earlier, Germany do not seem to be at all constrained by the EU in providing consistent spectacular success in global markets. I am sorry to say that I believe that it's the products that we lack not the opportunities.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2018)

hors limite said:



			Brexitspeak for I don't have an answer?
		
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I have one but I would rather push pins in my eyes than go through it all over again.


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2018)

hors limite said:



			WHEN? Rees - Mogg himself talked about a wait of 50 years.
		
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Remainers continue to call the man a fool so why do you want to take anything he says with more than a pinch of salt.

You now choose to take the negatives and ignore the positive that he has said, I wonder why.


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2018)

hors limite said:



			There are pressures in the EU and none of us know how things will work out.
		
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And there we have it.

Leaver says they don't know how things are going to work out = bad

Remainer says they don't know how things are going to work out = good


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2018)

hors limite said:



			OK
Point 1 You forecast increased budget contributions. In 2016 our net EU contribution was about Â£8bn out of our total budget spend of Â£800bn. If our contribution doubled, the effect on debt would hardly  be significant. At the same time, Brexit will lead to a slowdown in growth with a reduced tax take. Will these losses outweigh the cost of EU membership? Also, let's not forget the Â£40bn divorce bill that would have taken care of our contributions for a few years.

Point 2 Federalisation. Macron, Juncker and Barnier do not determine the future direction of the EU. Federalisation has been talked about for years and that's all it has been - talk. There are pressures in the EU and none of us know how things will work out.

Point 3 Dyson. I fully understand his personal motives. I just don't understand how he can be a credible Brexit advocate. If he was saying, throw off the shackles and me and my ilk will invest in the new sunlit UK uplands, I could see how that would work. Instead, he is setting an example for taking investment overseas. As for the markets for his new electric car, they exist primarily in the sophisticated "green" markets of the EU.

Point 4 Global stage. As I said earlier, Germany do not seem to be at all constrained by the EU in providing consistent spectacular success in global markets. I am sorry to say that I believe that it's the products that we lack not the opportunities.
		
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Point 1. The EU have proposed a budget increase of 3% on its current â€˜take.â€™ Doesnâ€™t sound too bad...."........until you realise that there are 10 countries that donâ€™t contribute anything, and that increase has got to come from the net contributors. The figure given to the U.K. is â‚¬22bn. But then thereâ€™s the rebate. Thatâ€™ll be the rebate that the EU is proposing to stop.

Point 2. First of all, do you actually know what federalisation is? Can you explain what federalisation is? Short version; central control. Italy recently proposed a budget which had spending within its GDP limits and within the EUâ€™s rules. The EU have rejected it. Central control. And an EU army; why? The EU is a super-state, and to suggest otherwise is naive. Have a look at how many EU laws the U.K. has opposed and how times the U.K. has lost out in its opposition. Thatâ€™s central control, and that is federalism. 

Point 3. Thereâ€™s business people and economists on both sides of the fence. Are both sides wrong? Even Mark Carney has admitted some of his forecasts were overly negative. George Osbourne predicted the sky would fall down, and even his own Treasury and a Commons Select committee called him out on his predictions. Neither side has total credibility.

Point 4. In April it was mooted that the U.K. would be invited to join the trading bloc that has the strongest growth rates in the world. On Oct 8th the PM of Japan confirmed that invite.

But splitting hairs with you, like Hogan, is pointless as you are completely brainwashed to believing in Armageddon. Personally, I think there will be problems and a dip but I donâ€™t think the sky will fall down.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2018)

Leader in today's _Times - _titled _*Honest Jo*_

_Jo Johnson is right...Mr Johnson should be applauded for his honesty...Mr Johnson noted..."We would be out of Europe yet run by Europe".  Nobody voted for this.  The only alternative to Mrs May's deal, at least as far as the prime minister is concerned, is that we leave with no deal at all.  As Mr Johnson says, this would be a calamitous outcome for Britain._

And so over to the Leavers, the expert economists, trade experts and negotiators on the Leave side who will rubbish the Times leader and Mr Johnson by stating what? Let me guess, in denial they will tell us that we should expect nothing more from a Remain Newspaper and a Remainer like Mr Johnson.  And will offer little more than _'the country voted to leave - the government must honour the vote'.  _ And the denial of the truth of the Times leader and Mr Johnson will continue.

_By refusing to play along with this game, Jo Johnson has done the country an important public service._


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## Hobbit (Nov 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Leader in today's _Times - _titled _*Honest Jo*_

_Jo Johnson is right...Mr Johnson should be applauded for his honesty...Mr Johnson noted..."We would be out of Europe yet run by Europe".  Nobody voted for this.  The only alternative to Mrs May's deal, at least as far as the prime minister is concerned, is that we leave with no deal at all.  As Mr Johnson says, this would be a calamitous outcome for Britain._

And so over to the Leavers, the expert economists, trade experts and negotiators on the Leave side who will rubbish the Times leader and Mr Johnson by stating what? Let me guess, in denial they will tell us that we should expect nothing more from a Remain Newspaper and a Remainer like Mr Johnson.  And will offer little more than _'the country voted to leave - the government must honour the vote'.  _ And the denial of the truth of the Times leader and Mr Johnson will continue.

_By refusing to play along with this game, Jo Johnson has done the country an important public service._

Click to expand...

Iâ€™ve read some bits on it today, not an awful lot, but that isnâ€™t the slant I took from the Beebâ€™s website. 

I applaud what heâ€™s done. Much of what he said was about what an awful deal/betrayal Mayâ€™s deal is, and that he expected that Parliament will reject it.


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## USER1999 (Nov 10, 2018)

Indeed. There is leaving, staying, and Mays proposal, the worst option.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Iâ€™ve read some bits on it today, not an awful lot, but that isnâ€™t the slant I took from the Beebâ€™s website.

I applaud what heâ€™s done. Much of what he said was about what an awful deal/betrayal Mayâ€™s deal is, and that he expected that Parliament will reject it.
		
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I applaud it also - I have been asking for some honesty from the government for ages.  The Times leader piece also writes...

_Of course Mr Johnson's hostility to Mrs May's deal is shared by his brother Boris.  But where Jo has told the truth about the choice facing the country, the former foreign secretary has been characteristically dishonest.  ..he _(Boris Johnson) _claims there is a simple alternative to what Mrs May is trying to negotiate that would deliver a painless solution to Brexit.  It is a fantasy.  Boris Johnson has been able to get away with this only because Mrs May herself has not been straight with the public about the trade-offs. _

I note that I quote verbatim from the Times sitting in front of me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Indeed. There is leaving, staying, and Mays proposal, the worst option.
		
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Except it is now very widely realised and understood that there is no leaving that is worse than _No Deal, _and no leaving that is better than remaining.

And that is a toughie for many Leavers to accept


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except is is now very widely realised and understood that there is no leaving that is worse than _No Deal, _and no leaving that is better than remaining.

And that is a toughie for many Leavers to accept
		
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Complete nonsense from you once again, with your opinions being posted as facts. It's likely/probable that there will be an initial dip associated with leaving (which will mainly be down to the incompetence of the current government in negotiating our exit. A cynic might suggest that it has been done deliberately to make remaining more attractive) but no-one can say what the EU will look like 5, 10 or 20 years from now, or even if it will still exist. It could turn out that leaving now was 100% the correct decision and has saved the UK a fortune from having to bail out failing EU countries. Maybe the Euro will collapse and plunge the EU into crisis. Maybe other countries will leave and further weaken the EU. Nobody can predict what the future holds but you and other totally blinkered Remainers are determined that everything is going to be a disaster.

And I'm not a Leaver finding it tough to accept. I'm someone that would've been happier to stay in the EU, but have accepted that a majority wanted to leave and just wish we had a government with the balls to stand up to the EU in the negotiations rather than dropping their trousers and bending over at every turn.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 10, 2018)

I liked this bit of advice offered by the Scottish Government [in waiting]

Do not stockpile medicine, stockpile dry and canned goods instead.
When Brexit kicks in food will be much more valuable and will be easily be traded for medicine.


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## Hobbit (Nov 10, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I applaud it also - I have been asking for some honesty from the government for ages.  The Times leader piece also writes...

_Of course Mr Johnson's hostility to Mrs May's deal is shared by his brother Boris.  But where Jo has told the truth about the choice facing the country, the former foreign secretary has been characteristically dishonest.  ..he _(Boris Johnson) _claims there is a simple alternative to what Mrs May is trying to negotiate that would deliver a painless solution to Brexit.  It is a fantasy.  Boris Johnson has been able to get away with this only because Mrs May herself has not been straight with the public about the trade-offs. _

I note that I quote verbatim from the Times sitting in front of me.
		
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You do realise that you are believing an opinion. And its an opinion that supports what you want to believe. You have consistently not believed what Leavers have had to say. Not saying you're wrong, just highlighting that you never believe anything from the Leave side. It sort of brings into question your open-mindedness to the debate.

In the early days you were all about respecting the result and having a compromise. No where near that now. Where's your respect for the other side, the very respect you asked for from the Leavers.


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## IanM (Nov 11, 2018)

Shortage of medicines eh?  How so? The Worldâ€™s top pharmaceutical companies are not European.

We also run a trade surplus of Â£4.3 billion in this sector.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2018)

Minister resigns after getting elected on a manifesto to leave the EU yet doesn't have the nerve to quit as an MP and force a bye election.

Further moves by the political class to overturn THE PEOPLES VOTE.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2018)

several Years in the future this thread will be answered with â€œ I told you soâ€. 
Thatâ€™s my prediction and it will probably be the last post on it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2018)

Boris Johnson urges Cabinet Members to vote against the Prime Minister. Sedition. REMOVE THE WHIP


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## jp5 (Nov 12, 2018)

Can't see who'll be voting _with_ the PM at this rate. Could she have concocted a deal which is less supported from every faction than this one?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			You do realise that you are believing an opinion. And its an opinion that supports what you want to believe. You have consistently not believed what Leavers have had to say. Not saying you're wrong, just highlighting that you never believe anything from the Leave side. It sort of brings into question your open-mindedness to the debate.

In the early days you were all about respecting the result and having a compromise. No where near that now. Where's your respect for the other side, the very respect you asked for from the Leavers.
		
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If there was substantive evidence of the existence of unicorns - but there isn't.  Some might tell me that unicorns exist but for all the world-wide exploration of most corners of the earth not a single unicorn has been found.  I do not base things on the understanding of just one individual such as JJ - unlike Leave campaigners who will endlessly quote Minford, Dysn and Tim Martin - and relatively few others.  

I do not wish the UK to leave.  That was my starting position and it remains my position.  My compromise would be what is often referred to as a soft Brexit - that Leavers might choose to call it Brino - well that is their issue.  For me it would be a massive compromise.


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## User62651 (Nov 12, 2018)

IanM said:



			Shortage of medicines eh?  How so? The Worldâ€™s top pharmaceutical companies are not European.

We also run a trade surplus of Â£4.3 billion in this sector.
		
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You have to get it here and with new/unknown trade barriers, border queues and airspace issues to sort out upon leaving with no deal, that's the uncertainty, not if we can afford it.

edit: remember the fuel strikes in 2001 was it? People don't behave reasonably in times of shortage, survival instinct is to look after number one. Selfishness always kicks in, many people will bulk buy/hoard/steal/profiteer when supply falls way short of demand, even if that situation is just rumoured.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 12, 2018)

IanM said:



			Shortage of medicines eh?  How so? The Worldâ€™s top pharmaceutical companies are not European.

We also run a trade surplus of Â£4.3 billion in this sector.
		
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It was a tongue in cheek comment which you missed.
Point being made was that food will probably be more valuable than medicine.
Our learned Brexit minister just realising that we live on an island does not really fill us with confidence.


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## IanM (Nov 12, 2018)

Yes, but I love the way "we still have to get it here" when we have a 4 bill surplus!  (it's already here!  Much of it in Brentford!)


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If there was substantive evidence of the existence of unicorns - but there isn't.  Some might tell me that unicorns exist but for all the world-wide exploration of most corners of the earth not a single unicorn has been found.  I do not base things on the understanding of just one individual such as JJ - unlike Leave campaigners who will endlessly quote Minford, Dysn and Tim Martin - and relatively few others. 

I do not wish the UK to leave.  That was my starting position and it remains my position.  My compromise would be what is often referred to as a soft Brexit - that Leavers might choose to call it Brino - well that is their issue.  For me it would be a massive compromise.
		
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Why do you keep bringing Unicorns into the debate. Everyone, on both sides of the debate, know there's no such thing *AND* no one has said there is. You're the one being extreme in your simile. As for not "basing things," in other words you'll only believe anything from the Reman side, nothing from the Leave side. There's enough intelligent people on both sides to come up with truths. Lets be honest here, you really don't believe George Osbourne told the truth do you? Well, do you? He was brilliant for the Leave side.

I too don't want the UK to Leave. Its causing me problems now and will get very much worse. Its costing me at least 12% on pensions transfers, and that will get worse. Its seeing a tightening up on Residencia's, Padron and tax registration here. Its a bloody disaster for me!! But at least I try and take a balanced view on the outcome.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 12, 2018)

Gordon Brown pledges Scots that he will make Westminster stand by their Brexit promises.
Full credit to him for not actually using the word Vow in case anyone remembers what he said in 2014.

I see the 'UK Oil' is now being touted as a Brexit bargaining chip.
Useful stuff that 'UK Oil'.
Much more valuable than that useless cursed Scots Oil.


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## IanM (Nov 12, 2018)

They love Brown in Brussels ... and his mate Blair too....    Men of high integrity!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



*Why do you keep bringing Unicorns into the debate.* Everyone, on both sides of the debate, know there's no such thing *AND* no one has said there is. You're the one being extreme in your simile. As for not "basing things," in other words you'll only believe anything from the Reman side, nothing from the Leave side. There's enough intelligent people on both sides to come up with truths. Lets be honest here, you really don't believe George Osbourne told the truth do you? Well, do you? He was brilliant for the Leave side.

I too don't want the UK to Leave. Its causing me problems now and will get very much worse. Its costing me at least 12% on pensions transfers, and that will get worse. Its seeing a tightening up on Residencia's, Padron and tax registration here. Its a bloody disaster for me!! But at least I try and take a balanced view on the outcome.
		
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A fabled animal that, like the brave new world promised by Leave on a return to when Great Britain was _great_!, may never actually have existed and 100% doesn't exist today (even though I can't 100% prove it).

Yes there are very intelligent people of the leave side so let's have some honest truths from them to the leave supporting public and the electorate in general from some of the leading proponents of leaving.  So for instance Mr Gove - let's be having you follow the example of Jo Johnsson - or is he too much of an expert on transport and the impact that leaving would have.  These are the same people who would have told you that the problems that you are *already experiencing *in respect of your pension were simply Project Fear.  And they are not - they are real - today - and we haven't left yet.  And yet there are so many saying that all will be fine if we leave without a deal - that in face of overwhelming opinion and forecasts based up solid grounding.  And they claim that the government and the EU are in cahoots and working towards Mrs May failing to find an acceptable deal in the hope that as a result there will be a further referendum. We have heard endlessly that the EU need us more than we need them - that the EU *needs* a deal more than we do.  So why then would they not be trying to find a deal that works for us both. 

I'm sorry - but whilst the duplicity of the leading Leave proponents goes on I will not compromise on my view that leaving will be an utter disaster on so many fronts and I will do what I can to protect my family and the poorer of society from the vanity project of a few hard-line eurosceptics..  A few exploiting the fears and concerns that many have of the future, and that the right wing press convinced them over the years were the fault of the EU and that would be sorted were we to leave.

There is no deal worse than _No Deal _and no deal better than remaining.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Gordon Brown pledges Scots that he will make Westminster stand by their Brexit promises.
Full credit to him for not actually using the word Vow in case anyone remembers what he said in 2014.

I see the 'UK Oil' is now being touted as a Brexit bargaining chip.
Useful stuff that 'UK Oil'.
Much more valuable than that useless cursed Scots Oil.
		
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Is that the same oil that would be running out in no time at all, and therefore might as well be put aside in respect of the projected finances of an independent Scotland?


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## adam6177 (Nov 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There is no deal worse than _No Deal _and no deal better than remaining.
		
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I actually LOL'd at that.  I'd ask for some proof of that statement....but I know and you know that there isn't a single remainer out there that can prove it.


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## hors limite (Nov 12, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Point 1. The EU have proposed a budget increase of 3% on its current â€˜take.â€™ Doesnâ€™t sound too bad...."........until you realise that there are 10 countries that donâ€™t contribute anything, and that increase has got to come from the net contributors. The figure given to the U.K. is â‚¬22bn. But then thereâ€™s the rebate. Thatâ€™ll be the rebate that the EU is proposing to stop.

Point 2. First of all, do you actually know what federalisation is? Can you explain what federalisation is? Short version; central control. Italy recently proposed a budget which had spending within its GDP limits and within the EUâ€™s rules. The EU have rejected it. Central control. And an EU army; why? The EU is a super-state, and to suggest otherwise is naive. Have a look at how many EU laws the U.K. has opposed and how times the U.K. has lost out in its opposition. Thatâ€™s central control, and that is federalism.

Point 3. Thereâ€™s business people and economists on both sides of the fence. Are both sides wrong? Even Mark Carney has admitted some of his forecasts were overly negative. George Osbourne predicted the sky would fall down, and even his own Treasury and a Commons Select committee called him out on his predictions. Neither side has total credibility.

Point 4. In April it was mooted that the U.K. would be invited to join the trading bloc that has the strongest growth rates in the world. On Oct 8th the PM of Japan confirmed that invite.

But splitting hairs with you, like Hogan, is pointless as you are completely brainwashed to believing in Armageddon. Personally, I think there will be problems and a dip but I donâ€™t think the sky will fall down.
		
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1.I have searched diligently and can't find a forecast that is anywhere near Â£22bn - Im finding Â£12bn and as for the rebate, you do not know that it would end.

2.Are you saying that the UK should always be on the winning side? Can you give me a couple of examples where the UK opposed and where the subsequent law had a significant negative impact?

3.This is simply ridiculous. The overwhelming weight of informed opinion is telling us that a hard or no deal Brexit will have a negative effect on growth, future investment and jobs. 

4 You aren't responding to my point. If the Uk, unlike Germany, isn't making the most of the present trade opportunities outside the EU what magic wand will be waved by joining your " trading bloc".

I am not predicting Armageddon. However, we were told that frictionless trade with the EU would be a doddle - a lie. We were told that there would be a Brexit dividend for the NHS - a lie. We were not told that the divorce bill would come to a whopping Â£40bn. We were told that the rest of the world would be queuing up to sign trade deals. We have yet to see details of one. 
Brexit was sold as something that would bring further prosperity and now that has been completely stood on it's head - we are now supposed to believe that it's a " price worth paying". It isn't.


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## USER1999 (Nov 12, 2018)

The divorce bill is due whether we leave or stay. To bring it up is irrelevant.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I actually LOL'd at that.  I'd ask for some proof of that statement....but I know and you know that there isn't a single remainer out there that can prove it.
		
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It is utter nonsense - and you know it - to ask for proof of the future.  But it is possible to put considerable trust - and in fact belief - in predictions from many, many experts across all sectors - that are built upon solid foundations of knowledge and experience.

We are in the incredible situation where many who support leave are holding their position on no more of a basis than the future cannot be foretold 100% - there is no proof that X, Y and Z will happen so we will ignore that it might and call it out as Proiect Fear.

And that is frankly incredible because it goes against everything that we do in life and work - when we look ahead and try and work out what is likely to happen based upon our own knowledge and experience of the past.  We makes calculated judgements and act accordingly.

It is very rare that I make very important decisions that will have very important impact on the life of myself or my family without ensuring I am very well informed, understand the risks and impact, and the likelihood any risk might materialise.  And I make my decision accordingly.  I do not just jump and hope.

I would prefer to act not in haste lest I have to repent at leisure.


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## adam6177 (Nov 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is utter nonsense - and you know it - to ask for proof of the future.
		
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Exactly my point - so lets get on with the result of the democratic vote and stop all this damn hot air!


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## hors limite (Nov 12, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			The divorce bill is due whether we leave or stay. To bring it up is irrelevant.
		
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I am sorry but this doesn't make sense - you only pay the divorce bill if you leave. it can't be emphasised enough - there was no mention of a bill for Â£40bn by the Leave campaign.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			Exactly my point - so lets get on with the result of the democratic vote and stop all this damn hot air!
		
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So you are in the 'ignore all predictions no matter by who and no matter how well founded - let's just jump and see what happens' camp. 

Sorry - that's just not good enough.  

Nobody in life goes ahead with something they might want to do (but don't actually _have_ to do) if they do not have much of a clue what the outcome might be. Especially when he is being told that what he is wanting to do - based upon all current and previous evidence and knowledge - is likely to turn out bad for him - and *others.  *And that no matter how well it might turn out - it is just most very unlikely to be better than not doing it at all.  And that actually he should maybe just pause to look at what he has, and realise that doing what he wants to do just isn't worth the risk.


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## Dando (Nov 12, 2018)

Iâ€™m sure you would happily ignore any well founded predictions that didnâ€™t suit your view!

Do you realise that predictions can be wrong no matter who makes them?


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## adam6177 (Nov 12, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you are in the 'ignore all predictions no matter by who and no matter how well founded - let's just jump and see what happens' camp.
		
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Not at all, I'm in the camp of I've read up on the subject pre and post vote and more than ever I feel we're better out of the EU.

Not sure what's so difficult to understand.


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## Foxholer (Nov 12, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			Exactly my point - so lets get on with the result of the democratic vote and stop all this damn hot air!
		
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I believe that's exactly what May is trying to do!

Unfortunately, those who are required to 'approve' her actions are, because of 'common sense' (the remainers in Parliament) and/or idealogical naivety (quite a few Leavers) there's significant, if not overwhelming resistance for her plan! 

Of course, the EU negotiating team is well aware of the 'weakness' of her plan and is, quite reasonably from their pov, making the most of her weakness!

She needs to start showing strength by sacking - or at least 'inviting to resign' - any 'non-believers' of her plan and get on with the task of negotiation! There does need to be some commitment from the Irish to back her plan (as the Irish 'border' is definitely a sticking point), so they (not just the DUP) need to be 'brought on board' in some effective way.

The entire charade is certainly likely to continue until the last minute however - that's simply the way such 'date-driven' events work! The old saying that 'if it wasn't for the last minute, nothing would actually happen' is most definitely true in situations like this!


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2018)

hors limite said:



			1.I have searched diligently and can't find a forecast that is anywhere near Â£22bn - Im finding Â£12bn and as for the rebate, you do not know that it would end.

2.Are you saying that the UK should always be on the winning side? Can you give me a couple of examples where the UK opposed and where the subsequent law had a significant negative impact?

3.This is simply ridiculous. The overwhelming weight of informed opinion is telling us that a hard or no deal Brexit will have a negative effect on growth, future investment and jobs.

4 You aren't responding to my point. If the Uk, unlike Germany, isn't making the most of the present trade opportunities outside the EU what magic wand will be waved by joining your " trading bloc".

I am not predicting Armageddon. However, we were told that frictionless trade with the EU would be a doddle - a lie. We were told that there would be a Brexit dividend for the NHS - a lie. We were not told that the divorce bill would come to a whopping Â£40bn. We were told that the rest of the world would be queuing up to sign trade deals. We have yet to see details of one.
Brexit was sold as something that would bring further prosperity and now that has been completely stood on it's head - we are now supposed to believe that it's a " price worth paying". It isn't.
		
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Just a quick reply.

Jan 17, last year, the EU commission announced its intention to end rebates. Germany have proposed a 10% increase to the EU 2021 to 2027 to cover the Brexit gap. The â€œfrugal fourâ€ Western European countries are opposing it but the expectation is it will be at least 3%. It has just took me 30secs to find that.

Thereâ€™s oodles of examples of how many times the U.K. has opposed an EU law. The rejection by the EU court is up to over 80%, from just over 70%. Youâ€™ll find the detail earlier in the thread, and on the net if you look. Thereâ€™s a very detailed (Times) article on that. Took me 30secs to find that.

Iâ€™m not doubting thereâ€™ll be an impact on growth. Equally, all the predictions say growth will slow, not shrink. There will still be growth. And isnâ€™t it a little strange that some EU and global businesses are still announcing further investment in the U.K. if it isnâ€™t a good place to invest...

My trading bloc? What on earth are you on? Would you rather the U.K. wasnâ€™t part of a trading bloc with the biggest growth rates in the world? An invite to join, not the U.K. asking them. But that doesnâ€™t suit your argument does it. 

As for your concern about U.K. trade outside of the EU. You do realise that exports to the EU has shifted from 53% in 2016 to 47% in 2018. Someone is managing to increase an already large trade number. And growth is up, i.e. it isnâ€™t a shift in trading partners but an increase in business. But letâ€™s not forget that 47% is a number that shouldnâ€™t be dismissed. Losing 2% of that would cause a lot of damage.

And if youâ€™d been following the process of membership and exit you will know that no trade deals can be announced nor signed till after Brexit. So why are you asking for the details of one? 

Iâ€™m not dismissing the lies by the likes of Johnson and Farage, nor those of Osbourne and Cameron. And Mark Carney has already admitted he was too negative. Think about it, the Governor of the BoE has revised his estimates up.


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I am sorry but this doesn't make sense - you only pay the divorce bill if you leave. it can't be emphasised enough - there was no mention of a bill for Â£40bn by the Leave campaign.
		
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The divorce bill, which you say doesnâ€™t make sense, is made up of the balance of payments for projects already started and the pension payments for retired EU employees.


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## USER1999 (Nov 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The divorce bill, which you say doesnâ€™t make sense, is made up of the balance of payments for projects already started and the pension payments for retired EU employees.
		
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Which is not going to go away whether we stay or leave. Hence the divorce bill being a non story.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2018)

hors limite said:



			I am sorry but this doesn't make sense - you only pay the divorce bill if you leave. it can't be emphasised enough - there was no mention of a bill for Â£40bn by the Leave campaign.
		
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There was no mention of it from the Remain campaign either, come to think of it there was no mention of the Irish border by either side either.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			There was no mention of it from the Remain campaign either, c*ome to think of it there was no mention of the Irish border by either side either.*

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https://www.theguardian.com/comment...peace-process-british-eurosceptics-uk-borders

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-36587809


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## bobmac (Nov 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm sorry - but whilst the duplicity of the leading Leave proponents goes on *I will not compromise on my view *that leaving will be an utter disaster on so many fronts
		
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So just your view then, your opinion



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			and *I will do what I can to* protect my family and the poorer of society from the vanity project of a few hard-line eurosceptics.
		
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How, by writing to Jeremy Hunt again?
Good luck with that


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-36587809

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So could Theresa May' s comments be considered a lie by the Remain campaign as both she and the EU are saying that there won't be checks on the Irish border?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2018)

And as we approach some form of deal being revealed...Fintan O'Toole - highly respected Irish political journalist today writes

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...heer-ignorance-of-brexit-supporters-1.3695347


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2018)

bobmac said:



			So just your view then, your opinion



How, by writing to Jeremy Hunt again?
Good luck with that
		
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Yes - and I have.  And I hope he listens to his conscience as Jo Johnson has done.  And it would not surprise me if Hunt is one of reputed four cabinet ministers considering resigning on same grounds as JJ

Because Hunt is cut from the same cloth as JJ - voted to Remain but publicly accepted the outcome and supported the government in seeking a Leave deal.  Until for Johnson the utter absurdity and catastrophic risks of continuing down the route the government is taken us became just too overwhelming.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			So could Theresa May' s comments be considered a lie by the Remain campaign as both she and the EU are saying that there won't be checks on the Irish border?
		
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They can say what they want - but there will have to be some border.  We can't just choose to forget that all that _*Remain *_side said about such things were dismissed *at the time *as being lies - Project Fear, because many _Leave _voters believed _Leave _- that what May was saying about the NI border to be a lie - if they were hood-winked then they were hood-winked by _Leave_.

And so let's not pretend - as many Leave supporters are doing - that the Irish border issue was not understood, appreciated or discussed before the vote.  Because it was. it is just that leading lights in the _Leave _campaign painted all that Remain said about it as Project Fear.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They can say what they want - but there will have to be some border.  But let's not pretend - as many Leave supporters are doing - that the Irish border issue was not understood, appreciated or discussed before the vote.  Because it was.
		
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Who can say what they want? Are you personally willing to accept that it was a lie by the Remain campaign? Much like the emergency budget we would have to have if we voted Leave. Or the fact that there were no plans for an EU army. Both of which have subsequently been proven to be lies.


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## drdel (Nov 13, 2018)

Meanwhile there is considerable unhappiness with Barnier because within the remaining 27  the WTO will not provide access to trade etc in the way they thought and he has not consulted them on the manner in which the division of quotas will be allocated post Brexit.

And another great example of the arrogant way the EU operates is that the members will only be given the briefest of scans of a deal Barnier might present to them.

I cannot believe that those who voted to Remain would still prefer to be controlled by this unelected bunch whose spending is out of control and think the world resolves around them and they can simply ignore the views of *elected* national governments


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They can say what they want - but there will have to be some border.  We can't just choose to forget that all that _*Remain *_side said about such things were dismissed *at the time *as being lies - Project Fear, because many _Leave _voters believed _Leave _- that what May was saying about the NI border to be a lie - if they were hood-winked then they were hood-winked by _Leave_.

And so let's not pretend - as many Leave supporters are doing - that the Irish border issue was not understood, appreciated or discussed before the vote.  Because it was. it is just that leading lights in the _Leave _campaign painted all that Remain said about it as Project Fear.
		
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The Irish border was hardly mentioned by anyone.  Your examples of a newspaper article and a quote by TM is hardly proof that the leave and remain campaigns were making an issue of it.

Regarding your other comment, there has always been a border, IMO the current over-focus on it has been an attempt by the EU to paint the UK into a corner whereby we will accept a very bad deal to create a so called solution to the border issue.  Its all hype, the EU is just kicking any resolution into the long grass to assist their aims.   How on earth do ports like Rotterdam manage to work when they are importing and exporting masses of goods from al over the world.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2018)

drdel said:



			Meanwhile there is considerable unhappiness with Barnier because within the remaining 27  the WTO will not provide access to trade etc in the way they thought and he has not consulted them on the manner in which the division of quotas will be allocated post Brexit.
		
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Having worked in Germany, Holland and Belgium in the last 12 months as well as with several Italians there is a growing frustration with Barnier in how the negotiations have been handled. Merkel is under increasing pressure from German industry to get a good deal agreed and have warned that thousands of German jobs are at risk if this doesn't happen. And several Spanish colleagues have mentioned that the tourist trade over there are terrified by the prospect of no deal. But this almost never seems to get reported over here.


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			So could Theresa May' s comments be considered a lie by the Remain campaign as both she and the EU are saying that there won't be checks on the Irish border?
		
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I think its semantics, and she was doing what politicians do. She was circumspect with the truth to give an impression of one thing when in reality she either didn't know or was aware that there were options available for negotiation but wasn't willing to discuss them beyond what the party line was in the run up to the vote.

Both sides lied. Both sides were circumspect with the truth, i.e. not lying but vague to give themselves wriggle room. And both sides are still playing with words.

I'm yet to see many, if any, frontline Remainers hold their hands up to the EU army that has been proposed by the EU commission, and has the support of several EU countries. There's a greater financial commitment on top of the future budget payments. I'm yet to see any frontline Remainers hold their hands up to the proposed EU chancellor that all the country chancellors will 'nod to.'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Who can say what they want? Are you personally willing to accept that it was a lie by the Remain campaign? Much like the emergency budget we would have to have if we voted Leave. Or the fact that there were no plans for an EU army. Both of which have subsequently been proven to be lies.
		
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What Remain was saying was that there would have to be a hard border unless...a deal was reached that enabled there to not be one.  And we are now in the situation where there could *still *be a hard border despite what the EU want - because the UK want to be able to leave a customs union without a border solution in place.  The EU are resisting that.

The Leave campaign set out to convince the electorate that pretty much anything that Remain raised as potential blockers or problems with leaving was a lie.  Because leaving would be oh so easy.  And that is the truth of it.  And some voters would bought that line.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Both sides lied. Both sides were circumspect with the truth, i.e. not lying but vague to give themselves wriggle room. And both sides are still playing with words.
		
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 That's kind of my point. There were lies, untruths, misrepresentations or whatever else you wish to call them, from both sides of the argument. But SiLH is so blinkered by his wish to remain in the EU that he can't bring himself to accept that Remain also lied, which in my opinion weakens any argument or point he raises due to him being so one sided on everything he posts. To him the lies told by Remain are described as "forecasts" or "predictions" and ignored, whereas the lies told by Leave are shouted about with outrage.


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Having worked in Germany, Holland and Belgium in the last 12 months as well as with several Italians there is a growing frustration with Barnier in how the negotiations have been handled. Merkel is under increasing pressure from German industry to get a good deal agreed and have warned that thousands of German jobs are at risk if this doesn't happen. And several Spanish colleagues have mentioned that the tourist trade over there are terrified by the prospect of no deal. But this almost never seems to get reported over here.
		
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Its interesting to read what the press are reporting what the gov ministers over here in Spain are saying. Basically, stuff your negotiations we're going to sign our own deals on fishing, tourism and residencia if Barnier et al screw it up. Spanish fishing in UK waters is worth â‚¬500m, and they want a deal. The value of UK tourism in Spain is â‚¬13bn. And the spending of UK citizens living in Spain is over â‚¬45bn.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The Irish border was hardly mentioned by anyone.  Your examples of a newspaper article and a quote by TM is hardly proof that the leave and remain campaigns were making an issue of it.

Regarding your other comment, there has always been a border, IMO the current over-focus on it has been an attempt by the EU to paint the UK into a corner whereby we will accept a very bad deal to create a so called solution to the border issue.  Its all hype, the EU is just kicking any resolution into the long grass to assist their aims.   How on earth do ports like Rotterdam manage to work when they are importing and exporting masses of goods from al over the world.
		
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Nicely trying to evade the fact that you were not telling the whole truth about no-one talking about the NI/EU border before the vote.  It was discussed.

And the usual _Leave _denial - continuing to assert that there is an obvious and easy solution to the border issue because there wasn't one 40yrs ago - despite *neither *country being in the EU 40yrs ago - and there being a very different political climate - with no Good Friday Agreement in place.  And if the technical solution is going to happen in the near future where are all the tech companies punting their technologies - where are the similar technological solutions in place around the world.  Where is the *evidence* that - for instance - Switzerland is planning to implement one in the coming few years.

And how do ports like Rotterdam manage? Maybe it help that the EU has trade agreements in place with many countries; and has scaled it's operations to cope with trade outside of these agreements and as required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

Meanwhile The UK DExEU minister discovers that there are 4m to-and-fro 'trade-related' vehicle movements a year through Dover.  And it is well understood that there is no chance of the infrastructure, borders inspection resourcing, logistics and technology being scaled up from existing levels to that required to be in place for 29th March 2019 if we leave with no deal and outside of any customs agreement.

But yes.  Just a dastardly EU ploy that they have just sneaked on us at the last minute - Brexit supporters would tell us.  

The truth is that as soon as Mrs May laid down her objectives/red lines in her Lancaster House speech anyone who cared to be honest and realistic about it knew that we would reach where we are today.

Maybe May took the PM job and set out her Lancaster House objectives on the assumption that all these clever _Leave _people *must *have a plan - they *must *know what they are talking about - there *must *be a way of getting what they have sold the British public.

Fintan o'Toole would beg to differ.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's kind of my point. There were lies, untruths, misrepresentations or whatever else you wish to call them, from both sides of the argument. But SiLH is so blinkered by his wish to remain in the EU that he can't bring himself to accept that Remain also lied, which in my opinion weakens any argument or point he raises due to him being so one sided on everything he posts. To him the lies told by Remain are described as "forecasts" or "predictions" and ignored, whereas the lies told by Leave are shouted about with outrage.
		
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Remain might have exaggerated - Leave lied and did not tell the truths about the major issues the country would face.  They sold the electorate a false prospectus and *told the electorate that everything the Remain campaign was saying was a lie* - so even when Remain exaggerated we were told it was a lie - so not to be believed.  And if you do not believe a lie have you been deceived?  

And it is that _Leave _prospectus that has to now be delivered - and it is undeliverable - it always has been.

Where we are today it matters not a great deal what Remain said in the lead up to the vote - other than as and where what was said has come true or is most likely to come true - it highlights the blatant lies and deceptions inherent in the Leave campaign.

And so today the CIPD Labour Market Study (Autumn 2018) highlights where UK is in respect of wages and jobs - just the sort of things that were going to be resolved by leaving the EU leave told us.

https://www.cipd.co.uk/knowledge/work/trends/labour-market-outlook

_The Labour Market Outlook for the last quarter of 2018 is based on survey responses from 1,002 employers across the UK._

_In addition to providing a general picture of market trends, the findings will also have important significance for employers and HR. The data and analysis shows sustained high employment and demand for skills and labour. This however, is compounding the pressure on recruitment, with employers reporting greater difficulty in hiring and the prevalence of hard-to-fill vacancies hitting a rising proportion of organisations._

_Combined with a shock drop in the number of both EU and non-EU citizens in employment in the UK, the overall picture is one of reducing labour supply. The effect of this is leading to higher workloads for existing staff, problems meeting customer service objectives, loss of business and orders in many organisations. The impact on productivity growth, along with uncertainty over Brexit, is having a braking effect on wage growth despite rises for new starters and key staff._

_All of this underscores the need for workforce planning and high performance working. Employers should also address staff concerns about job security and keep them informed on Brexit developments. Government meanwhile, must continue to work closely with employers in evolving a migration strategy that will allow access to skills at all levels._


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What Remain was saying was that there would have to be a hard border unless...a deal was reached that enabled there to not be one.  And we are now in the situation where there could *still *be a hard border despite what the EU want - *because the UK want to be able to leave a customs union without a border solution in place.  The EU are resisting that.*

The Leave campaign set out to convince the electorate that pretty much anything that Remain raised as potential blockers or problems with leaving was a lie.  Because leaving would be oh so easy.  And that is the truth of it.  And some voters would bought that line.
		
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You need to split the movement of people and the movement of goods in the argument. You need to understand where the Good Friday Agreement sits with both sides of the border, and both sides of the political divide.

The free movement agreement was signed a lot more than 40 years ago, More like 95 years ago. That agreement has never been taken off the statute books, and has been referred to by both sides in the last 2.5 years, both sides saying it will continue after Brexit.

So that's the free movement of people taken care of.

A month ago, for the first time, the EU agreed that the free movement of goods across the border could continue providing there were adequate (electronic) checks in place - the very thing May and Davis had been saying for months. 3 days later they rolled back on that announcement and said the talks were in deadlock. 

I've said it before, the EU are using the Good Friday Agreement in a disgraceful way. It is the political nuances that the agreement dealt with, not trade.

And now to the highlighted bit in your post. What utter, unadulterated rubbish! I'm calling you out on that one. The UK have said on numerous occasions they will not accept a border between the UK and N Ireland, and that's what the EU and Ireland have continued to call for.. You've well and truly twisted the truth there - bang out of order, especially when you continue to bleat about Leave liars.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remain might have exaggerated - Leave lied and did not tell the truths about the major issues the country would face.  They sold the electorate a false prospectus and *told the electorate that everything the Remain campaign was saying was a lie* - so even when Remain exaggerated we were told it was a lie - so not to be believed.  And if you do not believe a lie have you been deceived? 

And it is that _Leave _prospectus that has to now be delivered - and it is undeliverable - it always has been.

Where we are today it matters not a great deal what Remain said in the lead up to the vote
		
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Thank you for being so quick to prove my point. You just can't bring yourself to admit Remain lied can you? Go on, say it. You might find it therapeutic.

Is it really your position that it doesn't matter what Remain said during the referendum because they lost? So in any future vote people can say anything they like as long as they lose?


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## IanM (Nov 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Its interesting to read what the press are reporting what the gov ministers over here in Spain are saying. Basically, stuff your negotiations we're going to sign our own deals on fishing, tourism and residencia if Barnier et al screw it up. Spanish fishing in UK waters is worth â‚¬500m, and they want a deal. The value of UK tourism in Spain is â‚¬13bn. And the spending of UK citizens living in Spain is over â‚¬45bn.
		
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No, from listening to the BBC and SILH for the past 3 years, I am pretty certain that the EU doesnt sell anything to us at all and no money is spent by UK citizens on holiday in Spain!


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remain might have exaggerated - Leave lied and did not tell the truths about the major issues the country would face.  They sold the electorate a false prospectus and *told the electorate that everything the Remain campaign was saying was a lie* - so even when Remain exaggerated we were told it was a lie - so not to be believed.  And if you do not believe a lie have you been deceived?
		
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And George Osbourne wasn't censored by a Commons Select Committee, and wasn't criticised by his own Treasury Secretary.

Remain lied and Leave lied. You spouting Remain lies as truths makes you no better than Farage and Johnson.


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## IanM (Nov 13, 2018)

Politicans lied?  Fancy that!!


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## Dando (Nov 13, 2018)

IanM said:



			Politicans lied?  Fancy that!!
		
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Only those on the leave side lied.
the ones who wanted to remain only exaggerated!


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## adam6177 (Nov 13, 2018)

I wonder how different things would be right now if people who actually believed in brexit were running our exit strategy properly, rather than the remain crew sabotaging it from the inside out.  Surely one of the biggest conflict of interest stories of the modern era.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 13, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I wonder how different things would be right now if people who actually believed in brexit were running our exit strategy properly, rather than the remain crew sabotaging it from the inside out.  Surely one of the biggest conflict of interest stories of the modern era.
		
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I think that is a very fascinating question. One for university degree courses in the coming years.


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## IanM (Nov 13, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I wonder how different things would be right now if people who actually believed in brexit were running our exit strategy properly, rather than the remain crew sabotaging it from the inside out.  Surely one of the biggest conflict of interest stories of the modern era.
		
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Bang. Nailed on. 

All part of the "we cant' do it strategy"................ keep voting till you plebs get it right! 



Lord Tyrion said:



			I think that is a very fascinating question. One for university degree courses in the coming years.
		
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Not a chance.... Universities will increasingly de-platform anything they don't agree with and campaign for Federalism


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## Mudball (Nov 13, 2018)

Wooh hoo!!! 

As I was saying all along ... this might have been decided long ago but then strung out for as long as it could to create the illusion that we r in a no-deal situation.. and then voila T-May in shinning armour will vanquish all the naysayers, Labour et al with the rabbit out the hat

Brexit: Theresa May calls special cabinet meeting http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46188790


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## adam6177 (Nov 13, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Wooh hoo!!!

As I was saying all along ... this might have been decided long ago but then strung out for as long as it could to create the illusion that we r in a no-deal situation.. and then voila T-May in shinning armour will vanquish all the naysayers, Labour et al with the rabbit out the hat

Brexit: Theresa May calls special cabinet meeting http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46188790

Click to expand...

Now, is there any chance of another vote with these options:

1. Accept the deal as presented
2. Stay as we were in the EU 

Because this what I'm now scared of


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## PieMan (Nov 13, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			Now, is there any chance of another vote with these options:

1. Accept the deal as presented
2. Stay as we were in the EU

Because this what I'm now scared of
		
Click to expand...

The Government/Civil Service has invested too much time, resource and (most importantly) money in preparing for EU Exit (either Deal or No Deal).

Therefore the only question on any hypotheticalsecond vote (because that's all it is) is Leave with proposed deal or Leave without a deal.

That point seems to be constantly overlooked.

Anyway I'm going back to trying to find those unicorns I keep reading about!


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2018)

PieMan said:



			The Government/Civil Service has invested too much time, resource and (most importantly) money in preparing for EU Exit (either Deal or No Deal).

Therefore the only question on any hypotheticalsecond vote (because that's all it is) is Leave with proposed deal or Leave without a deal.

That point seems to be constantly overlooked.

Anyway I'm going back to trying to find those unicorns I keep reading about!
		
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Quick! Thereâ€™s a herd of them galloping up The Mall.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2018)

Merkel has now joined Macron in calling for the creation of an EU army. That must be a totally different EU army to the one that Remain said would never exist during the referendum. Otherwise Remain would have been telling lies and as we know they don't do that, they only exaggerate.


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## chrisd (Nov 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And George Osbourne wasn't censored by a Commons Select Committee, and wasn't criticised by his own Treasury Secretary.

Remain lied and Leave lied. You spouting Remain lies as truths makes you no better than Farage and Johnson.
		
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Is SILH still spouting the same old?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2018)

Agreement reached with the EU. Now just the small matter of getting the cabinet to agree and then getting it through a vote in Parliament. Should be easy from here.


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## Leftie (Nov 13, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Is SILH still spouting the same old?
		
Click to expand...


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## bobmac (Nov 13, 2018)

Leftie said:



View attachment 25923

Click to expand...

A blinkered unicorn?


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## chrisd (Nov 13, 2018)

So a deals been done, we're  out woopie ðŸ˜ðŸ˜ðŸ˜


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## spongebob59 (Nov 13, 2018)

chrisd said:



			So a deals been done, we're  out woopie ðŸ˜ðŸ˜ðŸ˜
		
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The words of hOkey cokey  will sum up the next few months.


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## Dando (Nov 13, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Is SILH still spouting the same old?
		
Click to expand...

Does a one legged duck swim in circles?


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## Dando (Nov 13, 2018)

PieMan said:



			The Government/Civil Service has invested too much time, resource and (most importantly) money in preparing for EU Exit (either Deal or No Deal).

Therefore the only question on any hypotheticalsecond vote (because that's all it is) is Leave with proposed deal or Leave without a deal.

That point seems to be constantly overlooked.

Anyway I'm going back to trying to find those unicorns I keep reading about!
		
Click to expand...

Ride one down to the Kent meet this weekend!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 13, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Wooh hoo!!!

As I was saying all along ... this might have been decided long ago but then strung out for as long as it could to create the illusion that we r in a no-deal situation.. and then voila T-May in shinning armour will vanquish all the naysayers, Labour et al with the rabbit out the hat

Brexit: Theresa May calls special cabinet meeting http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46188790

Click to expand...

Calm down, calm down.
I would think that May has a snowball in hells chance of getting her version past parliament.
Opposition from Gammon/UKIP Tories, leftie Labour, SNP, Plaid, Lieb Dems, DUP loons and Greens [if they have an MP] will see to that.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 13, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Calm down, calm down.
I would think that May has a snowball in hells chance of getting her version past parliament.
Opposition from Gammon/UKIP Tories, leftie Labour, SNP, Plaid, Lieb Dems, DUP loons and Greens [if they have an MP] will see to that.
		
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Agreed, itâ€™s a dead duck. Letâ€™s have the hardest possible Brexit then start negotiating. The E.U. might take â€œThe Apeaserâ€ seriously then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Quick! Thereâ€™s a herd of them galloping up The Mall.
		
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From the wailing coming from Rees-Mogg and Johnson I think a couple may have found homes for their horns.  To hear Johnson complain about 'the deal' as he is this evening is almost vomit inducing when it was his self-serving duplicity that gave kudos to Farage and set us off down this road to nowhere.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Merkel has now joined Macron in calling for the creation of an EU army. That must be a totally different EU army to the one that Remain said would never exist during the referendum. Otherwise Remain would have been telling lies and as we know they don't do that, they only exaggerate.
		
Click to expand...

YOu do know that forces of EU nations have operated together for some time under the EU flag and the auspices of the European Defence Union


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Agreed, itâ€™s a dead duck. Letâ€™s have the hardest possible Brexit then start negotiating. The E.U. might take â€œThe Apeaserâ€ seriously then.
		
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Yeh right - that's just going to be such a mega intelligent thing to do.  Anyway - roll on a referendum on _Remain _or _The Deal_.

Leavers have got a deal to leave the EU - so what's the problem - they'd all vote for the deal surely?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			YOu do know that forces of EU nations have operated together for some time under the EU flag and the auspices of the European Defence Union
		
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Yes, I am aware of the European Defence Agency created in 2004, but I wouldn't class that as a "real, true European army" which is what both Macron and Merkel have called for. You can employ your usual spin and fudge to try to ignore the issue but during the referendum Remain stated that there were no plans for and would never be a European army. They lied, but you are using your usual tactics of ignoring the facts because they don't suit your one sided blinkered view.


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## Mudball (Nov 13, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Calm down, calm down.
I would think that May has a snowball in hells chance of getting her version past parliament.
Opposition from Gammon/UKIP Tories, leftie Labour, SNP, Plaid, Lieb Dems, DUP loons and Greens [if they have an MP] will see to that.
		
Click to expand...

Other than SNP which will oppose, no one will oppose it.. it will be swept under â€˜the will of the peopleâ€™, â€˜as per the General Counsels adviceâ€™ or â€˜party whipâ€™ or some other spineless point.. 
the reality is unless the deal is s*ithot, everyone is going to sit back and let TMay drink from the poisoned chalice


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## spongebob59 (Nov 13, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1062440275958816768


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			YOu do know that forces of EU nations have operated together for some time under the EU flag and the auspices of the European Defence Union
		
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And you know that the missions carried out by these forces have been UN or NATO mandated, Those pushing for a EU Army are looking at operating under their own mandate and having the necessary assets to achieve it. Germany and France looking at forming a federal super power, who'd have thought.


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From the wailing coming from Rees-Mogg and Johnson I think a couple may have found homes for their horns.  To hear Johnson complain about 'the deal' as he is this evening is almost vomit inducing when it was his self-serving duplicity that gave kudos to Farage and set us off down this road to nowhere.
		
Click to expand...

The guy is a disgusting piece of something unmentionable. The cabinet don't even know the details yet, yet him and Mogg are shouting "no."


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The guy is a disgusting piece of something unmentionable. The cabinet don't even know the details yet, yet him and Mogg are shouting "no."
		
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Totally agree, but for the purposes of balance Keir Starmer and Sadiq Khan are also saying that it should be rejected and some in the SNP have said it should be rejected and there should be a 2nd independence referendum for Scotland. MPs from all parties are guilty of reacting to something that they haven't yet seen.


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2018)

Let's face it, with well over half of the commons being against leaving, the best deal in the world would fail. Remember, the political class are looking at one of the biggest extended career and pension schemes going west.

PS: Any news of SILH admitting that there may have been some remain porkies


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## harpo_72 (Nov 13, 2018)

Ah I think they agreed a continental breakfast really isnâ€™t as good as a full English .. but itâ€™s a start of a positive change in the negotiations.


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## User62651 (Nov 14, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Let's face it, with well over half of the commons being against leaving, the best deal in the world would fail. Remember, the political class are looking at one of the biggest extended career and pension schemes going west.

PS: Any news of SILH admitting that there may have been some remain porkies
		
Click to expand...

This deal as it stands gives economic stability and addresses control of immigration and allows cessation of payments to EU.  Â£ and markets rallied well on this news.
It doesn't allow unfettered new trade deal making or free us totally from EU regulation.
Northern Ireland unionists have some constitutional concerns.

It doesn't seem that bad a compromise.

As for EU army I dont think that's really an issue for your average joe who voted leave - not giving the EU money and controlling immigration were the 2 issues that won leave the referendum. I dont think your aveage leave voter or remain voter across rUK gave or still honestly gives 2 hoots about NI status within UK.


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## drdel (Nov 14, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			This deal as it stands gives economic stability and addresses control of immigration and allows cessation of payments to EU.  Â£ and markets rallied well on this news.
It doesn't allow unfettered new trade deal making or free us totally from EU regulation.
Northern Ireland unionists have some constitutional concerns.

It doesn't seem that bad a compromise.

As for EU army I dont think that's really an issue for your average joe who voted leave - not giving the EU money and controlling immigration were the 2 issues that won leave the referendum. I dont think your aveage leave voter or remain voter across rUK gave or still honestly gives 2 hoots about NI status within UK.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps the answer is for Republic of Ireland (a very small population & economy: largely dependent on trade with UK) to join the UK  !!!!!


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## adam6177 (Nov 14, 2018)

1pm today the leave means leave group will protest outside downing street at the "deal" that May has proposed.  I wonder how much air time it'll be given by the media....I really feel like these next few days are a pivotal point in our future.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 14, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			1pm today the leave means leave group will protest outside downing street at the "deal" that May has proposed.  I wonder how much air time it'll be given by the media....I really feel like these next few days are a pivotal point in our future.
		
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I wonder how many of the leave means leave group protesting will actually know what the details of the agreement are. The same goes for all the Tory, Labour and SNP members (from both the Leave and Remain sides) who are already saying it should be rejected, before they've even read the details.


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## Robster59 (Nov 14, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Other than SNP which will oppose, no one will oppose it.. it will be swept under â€˜the will of the peopleâ€™, â€˜as per the General Counsels adviceâ€™ or â€˜party whipâ€™ or some other spineless point..
the reality is unless the deal is s*ithot, everyone is going to sit back and let TMay drink from the poisoned chalice
		
Click to expand...

I have the feeling that Labour will oppose whatever deal is in place.  Their main focus is on bringing down the current Conservative government, force the election and hopefully get in.  Irrespective of the impact this has on the people of the UK.  And I say this as a lifelong Labour supporter but at the moment, with the current leadership, I have no faith in them at all. 
What we need is another referendum now that people see the REAL impact of Brexit rather than the jingoist rantings that dominated the lead up to the poll which have all now strangely disappeared.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 14, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			I have the feeling that Labour will oppose whatever deal is in place.  Their main focus is on bringing down the current Conservative government, force the election and hopefully get in.  Irrespective of the impact this has on the people of the UK.  And I say this as a lifelong Labour supporter but at the moment, with the current leadership, I have no faith in them at all.
What we need is another referendum now that people see the *REAL impact of Brexit* rather than the jingoist rantings that dominated the lead up to the poll which have all now strangely disappeared.
		
Click to expand...

And what is the REAL impact of Brexit then?....... Facts not opinion please.


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## Dando (Nov 14, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			And what is the REAL impact of Brexit then?....... Facts not opinion please.
		
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have you not read any of SILH's posts on the matter?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2018)

a



Dando said:



			have you not read any of SILH's posts on the matter?
		
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OK then - here is a *fact *about Brexit - what just just one company is having to do *now *as a direct result of Brexit.  If Brexit was not happening they would not have to do this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46191729

And a rather obvious one (to all but the DExEU secretary)

There are approx 2.6m truck movements through Dover a year - another 1.4m use the tunnel.  The vast majority of these trucks have minimal if any checks because they are all going to another EU country.  There is neither the time nor the scope or space at Dover to scale up existing customs operations at Dover to cope with a UK outside of the EU and the resulting associated customs checks.

Another fact related to the above.

Honda UK relies on 350 trucks a day arriving from Europe to keep its giant Swindon factory operating, with just an hourâ€™s worth of parts being held on the production line.


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## Kellfire (Nov 14, 2018)

Brexit is already having a negative effect on the craft beer industry as many European importers are saying they simply wonâ€™t be able to afford UK beer after Brexit.


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## Old Skier (Nov 14, 2018)

Well done, have you got any further confirming the lies that came out of the remain side.


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## IanM (Nov 14, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Brexit is already having a negative effect on the craft beer industry as many European importers are saying they simply wonâ€™t be able to afford UK beer after Brexit.
		
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Contrasting wonderfully with the news that we won't be able to afford imported beer in the UK due to the Pound being worthless...

Can't both be right!


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## IanM (Nov 14, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			And what is the REAL impact of Brexit then?....... Facts not opinion please.
		
Click to expand...

Anyone saying they know for sure is lying.  Simply because the terms of exit are not yet agreed!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wonder how many of the leave means leave group protesting will actually know what the details of the agreement are. The same goes for all the Tory, Labour and SNP members (from both the Leave and Remain sides) who are already saying it should be rejected, before they've even read the details.
		
Click to expand...

They also don't know what being a vassal to a.n.other actually means - and also could not tell us what it is about May's agreement that would qualify UK as a vassal state.  But the pseud-intellectual JR-M used the word and it sounds impressive - so many Leave voters now throw it around as if they knew it all along.

As mentioned elsewhere - and they might not realise this - but in feudal times a Lord would be a vassal of the King.  But that did not make the Lord powerless or unable to make decisions for himself.  He simple pledged an allegiance to the King and supplied men and money as required by the King.  Pretty much where the UK is at the moment in respect of the EU I'd say.


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## Dando (Nov 14, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Well done, have you got any further confirming the lies that came out of the remain side.
		
Click to expand...

remain didn't lie, they just exaggerated and in SILH's warped world that is ok


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			a

OK then - here is a *fact *about Brexit - what just just one company is having to do *now *as a direct result of Brexit.  If Brexit was not happening they would not have to do this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46191729

And a rather obvious one (to all but the DExEU secretary)

There are approx 2.6m truck movements through Dover a year - another 1.4m use the tunnel.  The vast majority of these trucks have minimal if any checks because they are all going to another EU country.  There is neither the time nor the scope or space at Dover to scale up existing customs operations at Dover to cope with a UK outside of the EU and the resulting associated customs checks.

Another fact related to the above.

Honda UK relies on 350 trucks a day arriving from Europe to keep its giant Swindon factory operating, with just an hourâ€™s worth of parts being held on the production line.
		
Click to expand...

Where did you get the information regarding Hondas parts supply.  My brother in law works for Honda in Swindon and collects parts for the production lines in a truck from a massive storage facility 20 miles away then delivers them to the factory. It may be true that they only have one hours supply of parts in the factory but they have a large amount near by.  Honda are not stupid, they dont have a situation where a two hour delay on thr M5 stops their production lines.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Brexit is already having a negative effect on the craft beer industry as many European importers are saying they simply wonâ€™t be able to afford UK beer after Brexit.
		
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How exactly is Brexit affecting the price of craft beer in the EU,we have not left yet so there are no tariffs, the fall of the pound against the euro will make it cheaper to buy at the moment. And who would be putting tariffs on this beer. After Brexit, Not the UK.


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## IanM (Nov 14, 2018)

Been in a room today with a load of (pretty senior) career Civil Servants.... I'd say the majority are pro Remain and left of centre... 

Interesting discussion on Brexit - virtually no consensus on what they think will actually happen... i.e  2nd Ref, No Deal, Theresa's Fudge (my words!) etc etc etc

My feeling is that if this lot don't know, or can make an informed guess... know one does.  (and I mean decision, not economic outcome)


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## User62651 (Nov 14, 2018)

IanM said:



			Been in a room today with a load of (pretty senior) career Civil Servants.... I'd say the majority are pro Remain and left of centre...

Interesting discussion on Brexit - virtually no consensus on what they think will actually happen... i.e  2nd Ref, No Deal, Theresa's Fudge (my words!) etc etc etc

My feeling is that if this lot don't know, or can make an informed guess... know one does.  (and I mean decision, not economic outcome)
		
Click to expand...

It's only taken 29 months to get to this point too. 
Wonder where we'll be in 29 months from now?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			It's only taken 29 months to get to this point too. 
Wonder where we'll be in 29 months from now?

Click to expand...

Probably still here in the UK wondering what all the fuss was about.


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## IanM (Nov 14, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			It's only taken 29 months to get to this point too.
Wonder where we'll be in 29 months from now?

Click to expand...

Still in the EU.... the messing about is deliberate.  (in my view)


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## Fade and Die (Nov 14, 2018)

IanM said:



			Anyone saying they know for sure is lying.  Simply because the terms of exit are not yet agreed!  

Click to expand...

Correct but SILH never lets the facts get in the way of a good rant. Too much listening to James o Brien has turned him into an extremist........ https://www.spectator.co.uk/2009/07/to-become-an-extremist-hang-around-with-people-you-agree-with/


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## Foxholer (Nov 14, 2018)

IanM said:



			Been in a room today with a load of (pretty senior) career Civil Servants
...
		
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Another bunch of 'unelected beauraucrats then'!


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## Foxholer (Nov 14, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Correct but SILH never lets the facts get in the way of a good rant....
		
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And his opinion (which seems rather more informed than yours) is certainly worth exactly the same as yours (or mine) and should be treated with the same respect as your own!

BTW. Does it not surprise anyone that so many have already pooh-pooh-ed May's 'deal' when details haven't actually been made public yet? It striks me that Rees-Mogg and Bozo would be the last to be informed of it, yet they were almost instantly critical of 'it' - without actually going into detail of what they objected to! I'd respect their opinioms rather more if they actually stated specifics rather than simply repeating the same tired (and misleading) rhetoric!


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## chrisd (Nov 14, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I'd respect their opinioms rather more if they actually stated specifics rather than simply repeating the same tired (and misleading) rhetoric!
		
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But you stand up for SILH for doing just that?


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## bobmac (Nov 14, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			And his opinion (which seems rather more informed than yours) is certainly worth exactly the same as yours (or mine) and should be* treated with the same respect as your own!*

Click to expand...

I accept he's entitled to his opinion but why should I respect it if I think he's wrong?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2018)

Its all a bit of whatiffery at the moment.  The crutial issue is what trading arrangement we can agree with the EU.  If its a good tariff free deal then all this current turmoil would become irellivent.  The negotiations have been in the wrong order and we should have insisted there would be no discussions on the divorce bill or the irish border untill this had been agreed.

In my opinion of course.


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## Robster59 (Nov 14, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			And what is the REAL impact of Brexit then?....... Facts not opinion please.
		
Click to expand...

Have you not been watching the news and the businesses being interviewed?  This is my considered opinion after looking into it very closely.
You don't believe there will be an impact?
It's an opinion but I'm happy for YOU to provide ME with FACTS to prove I'm wrong.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 14, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			And what is the REAL impact of Brexit then?....... Facts not opinion please.
		
Click to expand...

How about breaking up the UK for starters.
This May fudge is so bad that even the Scots Tory MP's are revolting.

Looks like a blind Brexit which most agree would be a disaster.


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## drdel (Nov 14, 2018)

A few facts for the SILH and his defender who seem to think they know it all...

The UK has more ports than Dover
Avonmouth is a port, pretty close to Swindon and has specialised systems for the Automotive sector.
Ireland ships through many ports in Wales and elsewhere - then to Europe via several ports 
Container and deep sea ships with RoW trade don't often use Dover and work happily with JiT and a wide variety of regulations,  duties and environmental controls.

The EU is not the centre of the universe so life will, on average, continue  much as before with some gaining and some losing - just as always.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 14, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



*How about breaking up the UK for starters.*
This May fudge is so bad that even the Scots Tory MP's are revolting.


Looks like a blind Brexit which most agree would be a disaster.
		
Click to expand...

What tosh....anyway if this was true your lot would vote for it surely? You have been looking for a chance to break up the UK since you lost your â€œonce in a lifetimeâ€ poll


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## ger147 (Nov 14, 2018)

Apparently the cabinet has backed TM and her deal...


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## Fade and Die (Nov 14, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			Have you not been watching the news and the businesses being interviewed?  This is my considered opinion after looking into it very closely.
You don't believe there will be an impact?
It's an opinion but I'm happy for YOU to provide ME with FACTS to prove I'm wrong.
		
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I canâ€™t because there are no FACTS. Only opinions. Your claim that you know the REAL impact is false. You have watched the news and business interviews but they will all have there own agenda. The only truth is that no one knows what will happen.


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## Robster59 (Nov 14, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			I canâ€™t because there are no FACTS. Only opinions. Your claim that you know the REAL impact is false. You have watched the news and business interviews but they will all have there own agenda. The only truth is that no one knows what will happen.
		
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I believe I said it was my opinion.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 14, 2018)

Well, cabinet appear to approve of what's on the table...

Not sure if that's good or bad...


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## Hobbit (Nov 14, 2018)

Something to help you sleep... the agreement.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/draft_withdrawal_agreement_0.pdf


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## Fade and Die (Nov 14, 2018)

drdel said:



			A few facts for the SILH and his defender who seem to think they know it all...

The UK has more ports than Dover
Avonmouth is a port, pretty close to Swindon and has specialised systems for the Automotive sector.
Ireland ships through many ports in Wales and elsewhere - then to Europe via several ports
Container and deep sea ships with RoW trade don't often use Dover and work happily with JiT and a wide variety of regulations,  duties and environmental controls.

The EU is not the centre of the universe so life will, on average, continue  much as before with some gaining and some losing - just as always.
		
Click to expand...

Immingham is looking forward to Brexit, itâ€™s investing sensibly in its infrastructure and is â€œBursting with confidenceâ€.........https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ews-lincolnshire-port-booming-post-brexit/amp


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2018)

Right can we get on with it now and stop all the squabbling and nonsense. 

Deal done - leaving the EU . Letâ€™s see what happens now


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## NWJocko (Nov 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Right can we get on with it now and stop all the squabbling and nonsense.

*Deal done - leaving the EU* . Letâ€™s see what happens now
		
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Not sure that's quite true, first time (I think?) May has stated, in public at least, that not leaving at all is a potential outcome.........


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 14, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Something to help you sleep... the agreement.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/draft_withdrawal_agreement_0.pdf

Click to expand...

I got to page 6 before I got bored. Think I'll wait for the abridged version to come out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2018)

NWJocko said:



			Not sure that's quite true, first time (I think?) May has stated, in public at least, that not leaving at all is a potential outcome.........
		
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Christ - so we could have another 12 months of nonsense


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## Hobbit (Nov 14, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I got to page 6 before I got bored. Think I'll wait for the abridged version to come out.
		
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I'm up to page 223. A very equitable and fair result so far. I'm genuinely surprised, after all the talk of getting stuffed, how evenly balanced it is. No one is taking advantage either way.

Looking forward to getting to the Irish border bit...


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## Hobbit (Nov 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Christ - so we could have another 12 months of nonsense 

Click to expand...

Oh you don't know the half of it There's the transition period up to 31st Dec 2020. Then there's the 4 year wind down of ongoing projects and commitments. Then there's the pension commitments that will run till 2058. To be fair, those commitments go both ways, and the money goes both ways.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 14, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			What tosh....anyway if this was true your lot would vote for it surely? You have been looking for a chance to break up the UK since you lost your â€œonce in a lifetimeâ€ poll
		
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'Your Lot'  wonderful bit of UKIP type language there.

UK will be split by the UK government if NI getting a different deal to the other three regions.
Huge difference from Scotland seeking independence.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 14, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			'Your Lot'  wonderful bit of UKIP type language there.

UK will be split by the UK government if NI getting a different deal to the other three regions.
Huge difference from Scotland seeking independence.
		
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Just for clarity "Your lot" are the Scottish Nationalist Party, a Party who want to be out of the union with the hated English, Just to jump into bed with Europe........I just can't figure that one out!.

The SNP leadership would see Scotland sink just so that they could gloat at beating â€œThe Auld Enemy.â€ Mrs. Sturgeon and her swivel-eyed acolytes would have ended the 300 years of oppression and tyranny that they like to imagine has been inflicted on the Scottish people. The fact that she will have condemned Scotland to a very uncertain future, either responsible for itâ€™s own financial stability,or as a very small and unwelcome part of the EU wonâ€™t matter,theyâ€™ll have their victory,and thatâ€™s what counts.


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## Del_Boy (Nov 15, 2018)

Simplest solution to all of this is for England to leave the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

Del_Boy said:



			Simplest solution to all of this is for England to leave the UK.
		
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Is that not what they are trying to do.


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## IanM (Nov 15, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Another bunch of 'unelected beauraucrats then'!
		
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No...a decent bunch working on an important service.   Not making law, but carrying out what the elected official requires


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Just for clarity "Your lot" are the Scottish Nationalist Party, a Party who want to be out of the union with the hated English, Just to jump into bed with Europe........I just can't figure that one out!.

The SNP leadership would see Scotland sink just so that they could gloat at beating â€œThe Auld Enemy.â€ Mrs. Sturgeon and her swivel-eyed acolytes would have ended the 300 years of oppression and tyranny that they like to imagine has been inflicted on the Scottish people. The fact that she will have condemned Scotland to a very uncertain future, either responsible for itâ€™s own financial stability,or as a very small and unwelcome part of the EU wonâ€™t matter,theyâ€™ll have their victory,and thatâ€™s what counts.
		
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As I keep saying, at least an independent Scotland will be part of the decision making process in Europe.
In the UK Scotland, NI and Wales will always be ruled by whichever party England decides to elect.
Looking at the two main political options available at the moment is it no wonder that at least 50% of Scots wish to be an independent country.

As for financial stability, that is a bit rich considering where the right wing decision makers of the Tory party are currently taking us.
As for 'hating' the English, you are way out of touch there fella. It is the pathetic 300 year old Westminster politics system that we hate.


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## User62651 (Nov 15, 2018)

Raab's gone, no great loss. Another junior minister too. 
Is the dam about to burst on May?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 15, 2018)

Anyone read the deal and can sum it up ?

Is it going to go through? Is the issue going to keep rumbling on 

Will that useless muppet Johnson step up ?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Anyone read the deal and can sum it up ?

Is it going to go through? Is the issue going to keep rumbling on

Will that useless muppet Johnson step up ?
		
Click to expand...

No and no.

No and yes.

He'll probably try and fail.


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## PieMan (Nov 15, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Raab's gone, no great loss. Another junior minister too.
Is the dam about to burst on May?
		
Click to expand...

Probably. If 10 Cabinet Ministers were against the deal then pretty much makes her position untenable. 

Interesting next few days ahead.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

Sign up for the deal then resign the next day, seems to be a trend with Tory ministers.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2018)

I find it slightly bizarre that the Brexit Sec has gone. It was his job to negotiate the deal. He must have known what was coming from TM. If he didn't like it then why did he wait so long?


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## User62651 (Nov 15, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I find it slightly bizarre that the Brexit Sec has gone. It was his job to negotiate the deal. He must have known what was coming from TM. If he didn't like it then why did he wait so long?
		
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He's ambitious, touted as a leadership candidate, was offered a cabinet role and took it, if he hadn't taken it pehaps he'd have missed his only chance to move up in politics. Resigning maybe meant to demonstrate he has principles and is *first out* of current cabinet which makes him appear stronger than others who may now follow his lead, calculated if risky career move I think.


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2018)

Rabb has resigned, 50/50 shot if May survives the day as he won't be going alone...


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## jp5 (Nov 15, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I find it slightly bizarre that the Brexit Sec has gone. It was his job to negotiate the deal. He must have known what was coming from TM. If he didn't like it then why did he wait so long?
		
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Self interest only. Shameful. He's been the one in charge of the negotiations and suddenly he decides he doesn't like it?

Just imagine how we are looking to the EU right now. An absolute shambles.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

Hunt to resign?  He sees himself as a Leader of the Tory Party and even as PM.  Now that Raab has gone, seriously increasing likelihood of a leadership challenge, Hunt may as well set himself up with Tory party members.  As a Remain voter Hunt may consider May's deal to be the *best* deal May could have negotiated, not the worst as Leave supporters are claiming.

Meanwhile hopefully over the next few weeks we will get much more honesty and clarity over the red herring that a _No Deal_ actually is - it being potentially so catastrophic across the board (as May alluded to yesterday and Raab also stated yesterday and again this morning).  And not just economically - where there may in fact be some benefits to be accrued - but nothing that comes close to outweighing the negatives economically and across the board.


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## User62651 (Nov 15, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Self interest only. Shameful. He's been the one in charge of the negotiations and suddenly he decides he doesn't like it?

Just imagine how we are looking to the EU right now. An absolute shambles.
		
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Think Raab was a puppet, Olly Robbins is reportedly still Mr Brexit for PM.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

Esther McVey resigns...


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## User2021 (Nov 15, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sign up for the deal then resign the next day, seems to be a trend with Tory ministers.
		
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Sign up??????

Maybot didn't allow the cabinet to vote on it, as she knew it wouldn't get the backing.


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## Beezerk (Nov 15, 2018)

I was going to say MP's should be ashamed, but they clearly have no shame.
Bunch of self obsessed idiots the lot of them. All of a sudden I've lost interest in this Brexit thing as all it is is a bun fight to see who can get the PM's job.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 15, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Just imagine how we are looking to the EU right now. An absolute shambles.
		
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'We' are looking good it's Westminster that's a shambles... Politicians failing to deliver the wishes of the electorate... Suppose we ought be used to it by now...


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 15, 2018)

The whole thing has made us a laughing stock. None of them are really interested in the best thing for the countyy, only their own self interests and dogma.


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## User62651 (Nov 15, 2018)

Betting odds on May not lasting beyond end 2018 now 4/6 or 0.66/1. Get in quick.
Bookies not daft.

May toughing it out in commons though.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

McVey gone now.....that's a bonus.....hopefully Mundell and Ruthy next [as they promised]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

Suella Braverman resigns - well that's a big loss to government.  The parliamentary under-secretary of state for Exiting the EU.  They'll all be gone soon, calling for a better deal no doubt - claiming that there _is _a better deal to be had and in denial over the potential for catastrophe were we to _No Deal_


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## Beezerk (Nov 15, 2018)

Is No Deal what they want behind closed doors? Something else is afoot but I can't put my finger on it.


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## adam6177 (Nov 15, 2018)

I hope anyone watching this debate is seeing what MPs really think of us "the people", they dont think we should ever have been given this vote and want to ignore the democratic choice.

I think more than ever our political system needs a shake up, these people do not represent us.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

Painful watching May in the HoC, she is a plucky fighter but she must surely know that there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of her getting this deal through.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			Is No Deal what they want behind closed doors? Something else is afoot but I can't put my finger on it.
		
Click to expand...

No Brexit


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## Beezerk (Nov 15, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No Brexit
		
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I hope you're wrong but...


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## adam6177 (Nov 15, 2018)

for anyone thats interested....the ftse is currently UP 15 points


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## Papas1982 (Nov 15, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			I hope you're wrong but...
		
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My feeling is that the party allowed May to get this far so That the public could see what a deal would entail. Now the brexiters in the cabinet will challenge, post her and go no deal and say that's what we all wanted.

Certainly don't see a remain vote coming as the Tories resigning all claim that the vote  deal is undemocratic..


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## MegaSteve (Nov 15, 2018)

Can see now why the chuckle brothers looked so pleased with themselves this morning...


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## User62651 (Nov 15, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			I hope anyone watching this debate is seeing what MPs really think of us "the people", they dont think we should ever have been given this vote and want to ignore the democratic choice.

*I think more than ever our political system needs a shake up, these people do not represent us.*

Click to expand...

A lot of MPs do a very good job to be fair and do represent most but not all of their constituents, not easy job. Very easy targets and take dogs abuse. If you dont like them you vote them out or stand for parliament yourself. How else do we do it? PR might be fairer system but we voted that down I think some years ago.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 15, 2018)

[B]Laura Kuenssberg[/B]â€Verified account @[B]bbclaurak[/B] 14m14 minutes ago
More
I've just been speaking to Dominic Raab - he told the Chief Whip at end of Cabinet he was quitting, tells me the deal won't get through Parliament, and the EU have been 'blackmailing' us - interview on @*bbcnews* soon
Raab says better for UK to walk away and accept short term pain than sign up to terms that could damage the country for years and years to come - says he still supports the PM and irresponsible to talk leadershp, but doesn't rule it out if and when time comes


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2018)

Funniest post seen on FB so far.

Gazza has arrived at Downing Street with his fishing gear, cans of lager and some KFC


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## spongebob59 (Nov 15, 2018)

Slimey toad Gove to be offered Brexit sec position !!


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## Beezerk (Nov 15, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			Slimey toad Gove to be offered Brexit sec position !!
		
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My god, that IS scraping the bottom of the barrel.


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## Mr Hip (Nov 15, 2018)

Anna Soubry to be the new Brexit Secretary?


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## spongebob59 (Nov 15, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			My god, that IS scraping the bottom of the barrel.
		
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More faces than a dice.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 15, 2018)

Mr Hip said:



			Anna Soubry to be the new Brexit Secretary?
		
Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

Best comment of the day so far...â€¦...congratulations to Ruth Davidson for near perfect pregnancy timing.


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2018)

Looks like a vote of no confidence in May will be happening very soon as the Tory MP's letters are submitted...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

...yet still this afternoon we will no doubt be hearing Rees-Mogg and Johnson bleating that a better deal could have been done - and pretending that _No Deal _is anything other than potentially catastrophic.  And so along with the others in the the ERG - for leading this country to the shambolic dreadful place we are today - they should be ashamed and just take themselves away...


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## User62651 (Nov 15, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Looks like a vote of no confidence in May will be happening very soon as the Tory MP's letters are submitted...
		
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Rees-Mogg has likely given May her 'coup de grace' with his reported 1922 letter submisson today.
Will she even contest a leadership contest I wonder?


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Rees-Mogg has likely given May her 'coup de grace' with his reported 1922 letter submisson today.
Will she even contest a leadership contest I wonder?
		
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If she loses a vote of confidence I think she will go and not take part in the subsequent contest, but even if she wins the no confidence vote, when she fails to get her deal thru the Commons she will have to go at that point.


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I'm up to page 223. A very equitable and fair result so far. I'm genuinely surprised, after all the talk of getting stuffed, how evenly balanced it is. No one is taking advantage either way.

Looking forward to getting to the Irish border bit...

Click to expand...

Well, its a "no" from me. To be honest I've not finished reading it, and I'm no expert anyway but...

The UK will not be able to do any trade negotiations with any organisations during the the transition period but can do them with individual countries. So that's the invite to join the Australasia trading bloc put back. 

The UK will not ever be able to set tariffs with 3rd countries lower than those set by the EU. That's the competitive edge lost. Vassal state.

The UK financial institutions have to abide by ECB rules AND MUST open a subsidiary in the EU if they want to do business - note that doesn't include investment banks who will be free to invest in the EU - no RIT Sherlock. That's fine as any business has to abide by the rules in the country they are doing business in. Pity the same rules don't apply to EU financial institutions doing business in the UK.

As for the Irish border solution, i.e. tying all of the UK to the customs union so as there's no hard border with an indefinite term and no right to withdraw unilaterally. All the EU has to say is no, and the UK is tied to the EU forever. And that would be on vastly poorer terms than we have as a member state.

Either May, as a Remainer, wants to stay in the EU by the back door or she wants the deal to fail, and for the nation to vote again.


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## adam6177 (Nov 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Either May, as a Remainer, wants to stay in the EU by the back door or she wants the deal to fail, and for the nation to vote again.
		
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Exactly, its so transparent!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Well, its a "no" from me. To be honest I've not finished reading it, and I'm no expert anyway but...

The UK will not be able to do any trade negotiations with any organisations during the the transition period but can do them with individual countries. So that's the invite to join the Australasia trading bloc put back.

The UK will not ever be able to set tariffs with 3rd countries lower than those set by the EU. That's the competitive edge lost. Vassal state.

The UK financial institutions have to abide by ECB rules AND MUST open a subsidiary in the EU if they want to do business - note that doesn't include investment banks who will be free to invest in the EU - no RIT Sherlock. That's fine as any business has to abide by the rules in the country they are doing business in. Pity the same rules don't apply to EU financial institutions doing business in the UK.

As for the Irish border solution, i.e. tying all of the UK to the customs union so as there's no hard border with an indefinite term and no right to withdraw unilaterally. All the EU has to say is no, and the UK is tied to the EU forever. And that would be on vastly poorer terms than we have as a member state.

Either May, as a Remainer, wants to stay in the EU by the back door or she wants the deal to fail, and for the nation to vote again.
		
Click to expand...

Or she has got pretty much exactly the best deal that she could have negotiated *given the red lines that she set down in her Lancaster House speech.*

And so today we have the absurd and ludicrous situation of Rees-Mogg....and supporters of the deal telling us that it delivers what the public voted for, and opponents telling us that it doesn't deliver any of the important things the people voted for.

And it is bleedin' obvious why we have this absurdity - because the Leave campaign did not define precisely what a Leave vote would actually mean.  There was no Leave manifesto.  Because they couldn't agree what it would be - nothing to do with the cost of distributing a copy to every household.

We are now arguing about what Leave means...and only the British public known what they think it means.

And so...the conclusion is obvious.  The government tells the electorate that this is the best Leave deal that is possible; that leaving is NOT what the snake-oil salesmen would have us believe - that it would most likely be catastrophic; and asks the electorate what it wants the government to do?


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## bluewolf (Nov 15, 2018)

Or, because of her own red lines, gleefully broadcast to all and sundry prior to the negotiations starting. This was the best deal she was ever going to get. And a "No Deal" Brexit was ALWAYS the most likely outcome.

It's not always a grand conspiracy you know. Sometimes people really ARE that stupid.

Damn. Hogie beat me to it.... Not a proud day ðŸ˜‚


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## jp5 (Nov 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Either May, as a Remainer, wants to stay in the EU by the back door or she wants the deal to fail, and for the nation to vote again.
		
Click to expand...

I think that's unfair on May. I think her intentions have been genuine, to find a deal that treads the line between satisfying the mandate to leave the institutions of the EU without causing too much disruption to our economy. This halfway house was never going to please many people though.

This is the time for a Brexiteer to step up (as should have been the case two and a half years ago) and show us the way. If their visions are achievable they will take the country with them.


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## Kellfire (Nov 15, 2018)

https://uokhun.uk/2018/11/15/larry-the-cat-resigns/

Larryâ€™s Gone.


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## Crazyface (Nov 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Well, its a "no" from me. To be honest I've not finished reading it, and I'm no expert anyway but...

The UK will not be able to do any trade negotiations with any organisations during the the transition period but can do them with individual countries. So that's the invite to join the Australasia trading bloc put back.

The UK will not ever be able to set tariffs with 3rd countries lower than those set by the EU. That's the competitive edge lost. Vassal state.

The UK financial institutions have to abide by ECB rules AND MUST open a subsidiary in the EU if they want to do business - note that doesn't include investment banks who will be free to invest in the EU - no RIT Sherlock. That's fine as any business has to abide by the rules in the country they are doing business in. Pity the same rules don't apply to EU financial institutions doing business in the UK.

As for the Irish border solution, i.e. tying all of the UK to the customs union so as there's no hard border with an indefinite term and no right to withdraw unilaterally. All the EU has to say is no, and the UK is tied to the EU forever. And that would be on vastly poorer terms than we have as a member state.

Either May, as a Remainer, wants to stay in the EU by the back door or she wants the deal to fail, and for the nation to vote again.
		
Click to expand...

Well I've tried to follow this most of the day and didn't hear any of this. If only the politicians could come out and explain it as well as this then we wouldn't be in the bluddy dark all the time.


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## Foxholer (Nov 15, 2018)

bobmac said:



			I accept he's entitled to his opinion but why should I respect it if I think he's wrong?
		
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There's a distinct difference between *respecting* an opinion and *disagreeing* with it! If you can't recognise that difference, then I'd respectfully suggest you stop posting in this thread!

Btw (<suck-eggs mode>). In a properly informed discussion, it's often simply a matter of the different 'weights' (levels of importance) different posters assign to the supposed benefits or disadvantages of remaining/leaving that makes someone's opinion differ from another's! (<end suck-eggs mode>)


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## Foxholer (Nov 15, 2018)

chrisd said:



			But you stand up for SILH for doing just that?
		
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In your opinion!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Or, because of her own red lines, gleefully broadcast to all and sundry prior to the negotiations starting. This was the best deal she was ever going to get. And a "No Deal" Brexit was ALWAYS the most likely outcome.

It's not always a grand conspiracy you know. Sometimes people really ARE that stupid.

Damn. Hogie beat me to it.... Not a proud day ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

No matter.  The great delusion will continue to be perpetuated by those too stubborn, arrogant or embarrassed to admit they were wrong or that they have been being economical with the truth - and they will continue to insistent that - even in the context of May's Red Lines - there is a better deal out there.  

If there is then why are Dave Davis and the rest of them not plastering it all over the place - telling us why it is so much better than the deal that May has agreed.  And this is not even a 'deal' - it's just the Exit Agreement.  The _deal _on future trade is ( as I understand it) at present no more than a framework approach amounting to all of seven pages.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

jp5 said:



			I think that's unfair on May. I think her intentions have been genuine, to find a deal that treads the line between satisfying the mandate to leave the institutions of the EU without causing too much disruption to our economy. This halfway house was never going to please many people though.

This is the time for a Brexiteer to step up (as should have been the case two and a half years ago) and show us the way. If their visions are achievable they will take the country with them.
		
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You are right - they should be showing us what they've got as an alternative.  But hold on.  Johnson, Raab, Davis and Fox have been at the heart of the negotiations...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2018)

jp5 said:



			I think that's unfair on May. I think her intentions have been genuine, to find a deal that treads the line between satisfying the mandate to leave the institutions of the EU without causing too much disruption to our economy. This halfway house was never going to please many people though.

This is the time for a Brexiteer to step up (as should have been the case two and a half years ago) and show us the way. If their visions are achievable they will take the country with them.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely!  Someone who thinks Brexit means Brexit, that leaving the EU means actually leaving the EU,  taking back control is, well, taking control back.   Someone with a bit of backbone who would insist we discuss trade arrangements at the same time as the divorce arangements and Ireland border so that backstops would be unnecessary.  Unfortunatly May does not have the backbone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



*Where did you get the information regarding Hondas parts supply.*  My brother in law works for Honda in Swindon and collects parts for the production lines in a truck from a massive storage facility 20 miles away then delivers them to the factory. It may be true that they only have one hours supply of parts in the factory but they have a large amount near by.  Honda are not stupid, they dont have a situation where a two hour delay on thr M5 stops their production lines.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...sing-dover-port-raises-fears-of-brexit-delays


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## Foxholer (Nov 15, 2018)

IanM said:



			No...a decent bunch working on an important service.   Not making law, but carrying out what the elected official requires
		
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Er.... 

Are they bureaucrats? Yes!  Are they elected? No! Do they draft the bills that may become law? Yes! Do they have the (final) say on whether a 'law' that is formulated is implemented or not? No! *And exactly the same applies to their European counterparts*!


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolutely!  Someone who thinks Brexit means Brexit, that leaving the EU means actually leaving the EU,  taking back control is, well, taking control back.   Someone with a bit of backbone who would insist we discuss trade arrangements at the same time as the divorce arangements and Ireland border so that backstops would be unnecessary.  Unfortunatly May does not have the backbone.
		
Click to expand...

They all had the chance when Cameron stepped down - but they didnâ€™t step up to the plate , the main guys in the Leave campaign when the time came showed zero bottle and backbone and hid away in the shadows. They all talked a good game , lots of noise from an empty vessel but when it was a chance to stand up and follow through - they bottled it and showed no backbone.

At least May stood up to be counted and has tried to do what she thinks is best for the country - all those pointing fingers at her in the cabinet and commons didnâ€™t have the bottle.

If the deal isnâ€™t good enough for them - well tough itâ€™s their own fault for not being there to do the deal themselves.

The lot of them are spineless - the guy who was in charge of negotiating walks away because he didnâ€™t like what he negotiated- do a better job then

People expected this to be easy , expected a clean break away - the reality is far from it , the UK is that ingrained in the EU it was always going to be messy but far too many didnâ€™t care just because they could blurt out â€œLeave means Leaveâ€

The vote was â€œ Leave yes or noâ€ - there was no specifics , there was no â€œdeal or no dealâ€ - it was leave the EU and if this deal means we leave the EU then the vote is satisfied , if itâ€™s not how people wanted to leave - tough deal with it because there was no deal on how we were leaving the EU when the vote started , idiots like Johnson didnâ€™t have the foresight to actually have a plan in place - far too busy parading around on a bus.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...sing-dover-port-raises-fears-of-brexit-delays

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I'll back SR on this one. Nissan is up here and there are companies all around it purely set up to hold stock and deliver in to it. Nissan likely hold very little on site but they will expect all of their suppliers to hold good amounts on their behalf. They will no doubt be telling them to hold more in the instance of a hard brexit. 

Car companies are not nice to deal with. They are brutal and bullying and will put all of the burden on the supplier to sort this out.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...sing-dover-port-raises-fears-of-brexit-delays

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That article  by Lisa Carol is not a statement fron Honda UK, its an editorial. Honda do not have an hours  supply of parts that rely on trucks coming in a convoy from Dover, if they did they would be subject to continual stoppages due to road conditions. I prefer to believe my BIL who works delivering components from their warehouses.  Also, surely the  problem with Honda would only occur if the UK authorities created slow border checks with these lorries, they would be coming into the uk not going out.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They all had the chance when Cameron stepped down - but they didnâ€™t step up to the plate , the main guys in the Leave campaign when the time came showed zero bottle and backbone and hid away in the shadows. They all talked a good game , lots of noise from an empty vessel but when it was a chance to stand up and follow through - they bottled it and showed no backbone.

At least May stood up to be counted and has tried to do what she thinks is best for the country - all those pointing fingers at her in the cabinet and commons didnâ€™t have the bottle.

If the deal isnâ€™t good enough for them - well tough itâ€™s their own fault for not being there to do the deal themselves.

The lot of them are spineless - the guy who was in charge of negotiating walks away because he didnâ€™t like what he negotiated- do a better job then

People expected this to be easy , expected a clean break away - the reality is far from it , the UK is that ingrained in the EU it was always going to be messy but far too many didnâ€™t care just because they could blurt out â€œLeave means Leaveâ€

The vote was â€œ Leave yes or noâ€ - there was no specifics , there was no â€œdeal or no dealâ€ - it was leave the EU and if this deal means we leave the EU then the vote is satisfied , if itâ€™s not how people wanted to leave - tough deal with it because there was no deal on how we were leaving the EU when the vote started , idiots like Johnson didnâ€™t have the foresight to actually have a plan in place - far too busy parading around on a bus.
		
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Gove and Johnson both stood for leader but neither got the number of MP's backing them that they required. Boris pulled out because his team told him the maths did not add up, Gove stayed and was humiliated. They both stood up but the MP's, not the electorate, knocked them back.

I wouldn't vote for either of them but it is not correct to say they did not stand up.


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## Old Skier (Nov 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...sing-dover-port-raises-fears-of-brexit-delays

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Op Stake picture, your reason for publishing it is???


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They all had the chance when Cameron stepped down - but they didnâ€™t step up to the plate , the main guys in the Leave campaign when the time came showed zero bottle and backbone and hid away in the shadows. They all talked a good game , lots of noise from an empty vessel but when it was a chance to stand up and follow through - they bottled it and showed no backbone.

At least May stood up to be counted and has tried to do what she thinks is best for the country - all those pointing fingers at her in the cabinet and commons didnâ€™t have the bottle.

If the deal isnâ€™t good enough for them - well tough itâ€™s their own fault for not being there to do the deal themselves.

The lot of them are spineless - the guy who was in charge of negotiating walks away because he didnâ€™t like what he negotiated- do a better job then

People expected this to be easy , expected a clean break away - the reality is far from it , the UK is that ingrained in the EU it was always going to be messy but far too many didnâ€™t care just because they could blurt out â€œLeave means Leaveâ€

The vote was â€œ Leave yes or noâ€ - there was no specifics , there was no â€œdeal or no dealâ€ - it was leave the EU and if this deal means we leave the EU then the vote is satisfied , if itâ€™s not how people wanted to leave - tough deal with it because there was no deal on how we were leaving the EU when the vote started , idiots like Johnson didnâ€™t have the foresight to actually have a plan in place - far too busy parading around on a bus.
		
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The vote was to leave the EU period. Not leave bits of it or remain in bits of it, LEAVE THE EU MEANS LEAVE IT. Johnson, Gove and others did stand for the leadership but didnt get it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The vote was to leave the EU period. Not leave bits of it or remain in bits of it, *LEAVE THE EU MEANS LEAVE IT. *Johnson, Gove and others did stand for the leadership but didnt get it.
		
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Thank you for proving my point perfectly

And Johnson didnâ€™t stand he went and hid away But would â€œsupportâ€ then new leader - https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-will-not-stand-for-tory-leader-he-announces-a7110921.html?amp

The man is a disgraceful snake.

Am I right in thinking you donâ€™t work anymore ? Or have I got that wrong


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## ChipIntoBunker (Nov 15, 2018)

On 5 Live earlier this afternoon one of the justice ministers on the radio (can't remember his name)...and I'm paraphrasing...

Him : 80% of the public support Mrs May's deal.

Interviewer: Is that a fact ?

Him : I used that figure to illustrate my opinion.

Interviewer: What is the source of that statistic ?

Him: I unreservedly withdraw that statement.


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## Imurg (Nov 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...sing-dover-port-raises-fears-of-brexit-delays

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This just has to be untruthful........
As others have said, a pile-up on the M4 and the whole Honda factory grinds to a halt!! I think not.
And what about the blockades by the French in recent times....Operation Stack on this side of the Channel - they'll have their own version over there....some lorries were stuck for days..
Don't recall hearing about Honda shutting down...

But people will believe this garbage.....


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## Foxholer (Nov 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			...

The UK will not be able to do any trade negotiations with any organisations during the the transition period *but can do them with individual countries*. So that's the invite to join the Australasia trading bloc put back.
		
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A longer (or maybe shorter!) process, but effectively the same thing! So no biggee imo!


Hobbit said:



			...
The UK will not ever be able to set tariffs with 3rd countries lower than those set by the EU. That's the competitive edge lost. Vassal state.
		
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This needs to be changed to be 'during the transition period'! Otherwise it's a deal-breaker - as 'never' is a deal-breaker imo! Though WTO rules quite possibly prevent such things happening anyway!


Hobbit said:



			...
As for the Irish border solution, i.e. tying all of the UK to the customs union so as there's no hard border with an indefinite term and no right to withdraw unilaterally. All the EU has to say is no, and the UK is tied to the EU forever. And that would be on vastly poorer terms than we have as a member state.
		
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Likewise 'indefinite term' and 'no right to withdraw unilaterally' means UK would still be subservient to EU control - a deal-breaker imo!


Hobbit said:



			...
Either May, as a Remainer, wants to stay in the EU by the back door or she wants the deal to fail, and for the nation to vote again.
		
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Doesn't seem a very satisfactory 'leaving' deal to me either!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thank you for proving my point perfectly

And Johnson didnâ€™t stand he went and hid away But would â€œsupportâ€ then new leader - https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-will-not-stand-for-tory-leader-he-announces-a7110921.html?amp

The man is a disgraceful snake.

Am I right in thinking you donâ€™t work anymore ? Or have I got that wrong
		
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What has it to do with you whether I work or not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			What has it to do with you whether I work or not.
		
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Just a question thatâ€™s all - I know a lot of people who are being affected by everything that is going on , losing deals , jobs going etc and itâ€™s not getting better. But the people that no longer work wonâ€™t see or feel that affect and I suspect it wonâ€™t bother them - especially when they blurt out â€œLeave Means Leaveâ€. There are a lot of people that have their livelihoods resting on potential deals with the EU , I suspect itâ€™s a hell of a lot of people desperate for a deal that means their job is safe. 

Fears about jobs etc are always dismissed by people like yourself as â€œproject fearâ€ etc so I suspect you are either donâ€™t work ( so donâ€™t care ) or in a job that doesnâ€™t need a relationship with the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The vote was to leave the EU period. Not leave bits of it or remain in bits of it, LEAVE THE EU MEANS LEAVE IT. Johnson, Gove and others did stand for the leadership but didnt get it.
		
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The agreement May has reached means that the UK *will* be leaving the EU.  It means lot of other stuff also - but with nothing more on the ballot paper other than Remain In or Leave the EU.  Well.  She can claim that she is delivering the will of the people.  Guess we will all have to get used to that idea.


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## Foxholer (Nov 15, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Gove and Johnson both stood for leader but neither got the number of MP's backing them that they required. Boris pulled out because his team told him the maths did not add up, Gove stayed and was humiliated. They both stood up but the MP's, not the electorate, knocked them back.

I wouldn't vote for either of them but it is not correct to say they did not stand up.
		
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Er... Johnson didn't stand. Gove 'shafted' him!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

Imurg said:



			This just has to be untruthful........
As others have said, a pile-up on the M4 and the whole Honda factory grinds to a halt!! I think not.
And what about the blockades by the French in recent times....Operation Stack on this side of the Channel - they'll have their own version over there....some lorries were stuck for days..
Don't recall hearing about Honda shutting down...

But people will believe this garbage.....
		
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If you choose to not believe it then that is your prerogative - but to suggest it is untruthful suggests you know why it is so.  So evidence that the statement is untruthful please.

As it happens the statement rather supports the views of the bosses of many major UK car manufacturers in respect of the JiT nature of supplies for their production lines.  Of course you may believe that they are being untruthful also.


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## Old Skier (Nov 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The agreement May has reached means that the UK *will* be leaving the EU.
		
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No it doesn't or if you have better info let us have the date. Or are you on about leaving some of the EU.


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## Old Skier (Nov 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			What has it to do with you whether I work or not.
		
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Looks like retired people shouldn't be able to vote.


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## Foxholer (Nov 15, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			Well I've tried to follow this most of the day and didn't hear any of this. *If only the politicians could come out and explain it as well as this* then we wouldn't be in the bluddy dark all the time.
		
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They are the last folk who should be 'explaining' it! They'll simply taint it with their individual beliefs!

This is where a truly independent Press should step up - providing *independent, balanced* explanation/criticism of all aspects of 'the deal'. Time for the Beeb to step up and show the (highlighted above) traits!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just a question thatâ€™s all - I know a lot of people who are being affected by everything that is going on , losing deals , jobs going etc and itâ€™s not getting better. But the people that no longer work wonâ€™t see or feel that affect and I suspect it wonâ€™t bother them - especially when they blurt out â€œLeave Means Leaveâ€. There are a lot of people that have their livelihoods resting on potential deals with the EU , I suspect itâ€™s a hell of a lot of people desperate for a deal that means their job is safe.

Fears about jobs etc are always dismissed by people like yourself as â€œproject fearâ€ etc so I suspect you are either donâ€™t work ( so donâ€™t care ) or in a job that doesnâ€™t need a relationship with the EU.
		
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Good on you - tell it how it is.  Has to be said as there seems to be a massive amount of denial (a lot of it self-serving) going on at the moment, and a lot of attempts today by leading Brexit proponents to pull the wool over Leave voters eyes - to pretend that where we are today with the Withdrawal Agreement need not have been so - if only we'd done or not done X, Y and Z or listened to someone else...

And I believe May when she says that what she has got agreed is a good as it could be - because given the red lines she was forced to set out (forced by the right wing press never mind the Brexit fanatics) - there was simply nowhere else for her to go - no better deal to be done.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			No it doesn't or if you have better info let us have the date. Or are you on about leaving some of the EU.
		
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As Article 50 days - come 29th March we will be leaving the EU and all it's associated institutions.  

What has had to be agreed in respect of the EU/NI border subsequent to us leaving, and for there to be a transition agreement in place, are subsequent to the UK leaving the EU,  And at the moment - as the Bill has gone through parliament - the UK *will* be leaving the EU on 29th March.  

What May has agreed does not cancel that Bill and in many if not most aspects fulfils what Leave voters are *thought *to want out of leaving.  because we don't actually and factually *know* in detail what what was wanted further to leaving.


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The agreement May has reached means that the UK *will* be leaving the EU.  It means lot of other stuff also - but with nothing more on the ballot paper other than Remain In or Leave the EU.  Well.  She can claim that she is delivering the will of the people.  Guess we will all have to get used to that idea.
		
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The deal May has reached is irrelevant as it will NOT be passed by the HoC's and so as a country, the UK will be back to Square 1 when the deal gets voted down by MP's.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			They are the last folk who should be 'explaining' it! They'll simply taint it with their individual beliefs!

This is where a truly independent Press should step up - providing *independent, balanced* explanation/criticism of all aspects of 'the deal'. Time for the Beeb to step up and show the (highlighted above) traits!
		
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Well - if some folks had taken a bit of time out to listening to James O'Brien on LBC they would have heard predicted precisely what has come about and why.  And his programme is not an echo chamber - he get's a lot of calls from people vehemently opposing his views.  He just gently, and sometimes not so gently, asks them to substantiate what they claim - to back up and logically step through their reasoning.  And 99 times out of 100 they can't and their arguments just fail.  And why?  Because in the main they base their arguments and rationale on what they have read or listened to for the last 30yrs from the right wing / anti-EU press  - and more recently to the charlatans who lead the Leave campaign.

None of the mess we are in today is a surprise to me.  But I have no idea 'what next'


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## Imurg (Nov 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you choose to not believe it then that is your prerogative - but to suggest it is untruthful suggests you know why it is so.  So evidence that the statement is untruthful please.

As it happens the statement rather supports the views of the bosses of many major UK car manufacturers in respect of the JiT nature of supplies for their production lines.  Of course you may believe that they are being untruthful also.
		
Click to expand...

Read the post...it's all in there.
I was going to spell it out in words of one syllable but, do you know what....I really can't be bothered because you're not going to believe it...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

ger147 said:



			The deal May has reached is irrelevant as it will NOT be passed by the HoC's and so as a country, the UK will be back to Square 1 when the deal gets voted down by MP's.
		
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Then what...?  In every interview I have heard today of a Tory MP who has written a letter to the Chief Whip or will vote against the agreement, when asked - what next?  Silence or dissembling.  That's what you get.  Nothing.  Because they haven't a clue how to get the UK out of this mess either.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

Imurg said:



			Read the post...it's all in there.
I was going to spell it out in words of one syllable but, do you know what....I really can't be bothered because you're not going to believe it...
		
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I am sorry but what you posted...

_As others have said, a pile-up on the M4 and the whole Honda factory grinds to a halt!! I think not.
And what about the blockades by the French in recent times....Operation Stack on this side of the Channel - they'll have their own version over there....some lorries were stuck for days..
Don't recall hearing about Honda shutting down.._

...is all in respect of very short term and temporary disruptions to JiT delivery.  What we are talking about with Dover-Calais is not simply few hours or days delay - a 'temporary' disruption that the manufacturers can plan for.  We are talking major disruption with the motorway system of the SE England completely clogged up.  And that's what the government are trying to plan to mitigate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 15, 2018)

May making a statement at 5pm, she's late.


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Then what...?  In every interview I have heard today of a Tory MP who has written a letter to the Chief Whip or will vote against the agreement, when asked - what next?  Silence or dissembling.  That's what you get.  Nothing.  Because they haven't a clue how to get the UK out of this mess either.
		
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Presumably in the very near future, TM will have to go as PM then it will be time for someone else to have a go.

It's not my job to say what's next, I'm just giving my opinion based on what I've heard/read today, and that is TM's deal has roughly 0% chance of being approved in the HoC's, so a debate about its contents is irrelevant as it's already dead in the water as it will not command a majority in the House.


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## Old Skier (Nov 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As Article 50 days - come 29th March we will be leaving the EU and all it's associated institutions. 

What has had to be agreed in respect of the EU/NI border subsequent to us leaving, and for there to be a transition agreement in place, are subsequent to the UK leaving the EU,  And at the moment - as the Bill has gone through parliament - the UK *will* be leaving the EU on 29th March. 

What May has agreed does not cancel that Bill and in many if not most aspects fulfils what Leave voters are *thought *to want out of leaving.  because we don't actually and factually *know* in detail what what was wanted further to leaving.
		
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Rubbish, you know it's rubbish. We may be leaving in name but even in your somewhat blinkered world can you say that we are leaving the EU on 29 March.


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## Old Skier (Nov 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am sorry but what you posted...

_As others have said, a pile-up on the M4 and the whole Honda factory grinds to a halt!! I think not.
And what about the blockades by the French in recent times....Operation Stack on this side of the Channel - they'll have their own version over there....some lorries were stuck for days..
Don't recall hearing about Honda shutting down.._

...is all in respect of very short term and temporary disruptions to JiT delivery.  What we are talking about with Dover-Calais is not simply few hours or days delay - a 'temporary' disruption that the manufacturers can plan for.  We are talking major disruption with the motorway system of the SE England completely clogged up.  And that's what the government are trying to plan to mitigate.
		
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During this year operation stack has been implemented several times blocking access all around SE Kent, one operation lasted nearly a week. Are you suggesting that the SE corner of Kent is going to be blocked for over a week with nobody able to get to the docks or, in some cases get to work.

PS: Honda operated successfully along with the rest of the country during his time.


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## Old Skier (Nov 15, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			May making a statement at 5pm, she's late.
		
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Bloody rude, does she not know it's my turn to make dinner.


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just a question thatâ€™s all - I know a lot of people who are being affected by everything that is going on , losing deals , jobs going etc and itâ€™s not getting better. But the people that no longer work wonâ€™t see or feel that affect and I suspect it wonâ€™t bother them - especially when they blurt out â€œLeave Means Leaveâ€. There are a lot of people that have their livelihoods resting on potential deals with the EU , I suspect itâ€™s a hell of a lot of people desperate for a deal that means their job is safe.

Fears about jobs etc are always dismissed by people like yourself as â€œproject fearâ€ etc so I suspect you are either donâ€™t work ( so donâ€™t care ) or in a job that doesnâ€™t need a relationship with the EU.
		
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That is a disgraceful statement Phil. I thought a lot better of you than that. I don't work, and I don't live in the UK. BUT I have children that both live and work in the UK. I have friends that both live and work in the UK. And I have ex-colleagues that both live and work in the UK. How my pensions perform and their their transfer value is determined by what happens in the UK.

Your statement is shallow and petty at best.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			That is a disgraceful statement Phil. I thought a lot better of you than that. I don't work, and I don't live in the UK. BUT I have children that both live and work in the UK. I have friends that both live and work in the UK. And I have ex-colleagues that both live and work in the UK. How my pensions perform and their their transfer value is determined by what happens in the UK.

Your statement is shallow and petty at best.
		
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Itâ€™s not just about working in the UK though is it - itâ€™s about working with the EU and having deals with the EU - I know people who have lost their jobs because of it , people that have lost their livelihoods because of the work they do with the EU , deals gone and I have heard plenty of time from people and on social media - â€œ it wonâ€™t affect me because I donâ€™t deal with the EU - so I donâ€™t care , Leave means Leave no dealâ€

Itâ€™s not shallow and petty when this mess of a situation has affected peoples ability to work and feed their families.


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s not just about working in the UK though is it - itâ€™s about working with the EU and having deals with the EU - I know people who have lost their jobs because of it , people that have lost their livelihoods because of the work they do with the EU , deals gone and I have heard plenty of time from people and on social media - â€œ it wonâ€™t affect me because I donâ€™t deal with the EU - so I donâ€™t care , Leave means Leave no dealâ€

Itâ€™s not shallow and petty when this mess of a situation has affected peoples ability to work and feed their families.
		
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Your comment is shallow and petty. To say that people who no longer work don't care is very poor. I don't doubt for one second that there are plenty of people out there that don't care but to generalise it, as you did, is shallow.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Your comment is shallow and petty. To say that people who no longer work don't care is very poor. I don't doubt for one second that there are plenty of people out there that don't care but to generalise it, as you did, is shallow.
		
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Maybe it is maybe I shouldnâ€™t be so blunt but then the thread is full of shallow poor and petty comments from people who want to leave the EU aimed towards people who want to stay in the EU because it affects their livelihood.

Everything is a complete mess and itâ€™s time to just get on with it - people will have given the authority to sort this stuff out have decided on a deal , itâ€™s a deal that means we leave the EU but still keep valuable ties with them that will help a lot of people 

But Iâ€™m sick of people blurting out â€œLeave means Leaveâ€ with not one single plan of action for that and quite clearly only care about leaving the EU regardless of the affect it will have on millions in this country 

This has been a momumental Balls up from day one when they decided to have a vote and have it 50/50


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## Crazyface (Nov 15, 2018)

Question:-
When they all had the chance to, didn't those people in the HOC ask May directly if she says the deal was everything was asked for (main bits) why then did it say in the document XYZ which proved what she was saying was incorrect. And also those supposidly intelligent political reporters do like wise??? Are they all in on some sort of conspiracy to keep us plebs in the dark. A massive opportunity wasted. I lost count of the number of times the Labour morons asked the same question prompting Mrs May, in eventual exasperation, to say " I refer my friend to the answer I gave earlier"


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## harpo_72 (Nov 15, 2018)

I am wondering if we just heard a bubble go pop ... ! 
Poor old TM she is in an invidious position, irrespective of politics, wouldnâ€™t want to be in her shoes.
Hope the civil servant slapped McVey with the rule book ... and shouted those are the rules!


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## Old Skier (Nov 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe it is maybe I shouldnâ€™t be so blunt but then the thread is full of shallow poor and petty comments from people who want to leave the EU
		
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In the interest of balance are you suggested this was one way traffic.


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## Foxholer (Nov 15, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The agreement May has reached means that the UK *will* be leaving the EU. ...
		
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Actually (and unfortunately), I don't believe i does!!!


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## Foxholer (Nov 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Your comment is shallow and petty. To say that people who no longer work don't care is very poor. I don't doubt for one second that there are plenty of people out there that don't care but to generalise it, as you did, is shallow.
		
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Actually, it's a perfectly reasonable argument - and there should  be no problem with anyone no longer working having their own 'bias', Read LPP's coment post again and  you might see that it was a 'quote' as opposed to an opinion!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe it is maybe I shouldnâ€™t be so blunt but then the thread is full of shallow poor and petty comments from people who want to leave the EU aimed towards people who want to stay in the EU because it affects their livelihood.

Everything is a complete mess and itâ€™s time to just get on with it - people will have given the authority to sort this stuff out have decided on a deal , itâ€™s a deal that means we leave the EU but still keep valuable ties with them that will help a lot of people

But Iâ€™m sick of people blurting out â€œLeave means Leaveâ€ with not one single plan of action for that and quite clearly only care about leaving the EU regardless of the affect it will have on millions in this country

This has been a momumental Balls up from day one when they decided to have a vote and have it 50/50
		
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your post was shallow poor and petty, you should be ashamed of it and apologise, it smacks of bigotry.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Actually, it's a perfectly reasonable argument - and there should  be no problem with anyone no longer working having their own 'bias' - as we all likely have!
		
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That would be correct if you wish to pegion  hole peoples opinions and bias based on their employment status.  Can i assume all unemployed people are lazy.


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## Foxholer (Nov 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			That would be correct if you wish to pegion  hole peoples opinions and bias based on their employment status.  Can i assume all unemployed people are lazy.
		
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I'm not pigeon-hole-ing anyone!

I'm simply  allowiing individuals to have their own opinions based on their own circumstances!

Surely that's what democracy is all about! Do you agree?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Can i assume all unemployed people are lazy.
		
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Of course you can, hey your on a roll ... Offer up some more.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not pigeon-hole-ing anyone!

I'm simply  allowiing individuals to have their own opinions based on their own circumstances!

Surely that's what democracy is all about! Do you agree?
		
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I would agree that democracy allows  people to have their own opinions as long as they are acceptable to the thought police.  I dont accept that someone suggesting  people of certain demographics all have similar opinions is very clever.  This is not and was not directed at you but rather your previous defence of it.


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## Foxholer (Nov 15, 2018)

Imurg said:



			This just has to be untruthful........
As others have said, a pile-up on the M4 and the whole Honda factory grinds to a halt!! I think not.
And what about the blockades by the French in recent times....Operation Stack on this side of the Channel - they'll have their own version over there....some lorries were stuck for days..
Don't recall hearing about Honda shutting down...

But people will believe this garbage.....
		
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Er...It's not garbage! According to the report - there's 2.6 (+1/6) million lorries per year going through Dover = that's over 11,000 per day - probably more like 13.5k/day on a 5/6 day week!

So the Dover access is a huge consideration!!


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## User62651 (Nov 15, 2018)

The age/retirement question is not irrelevant because of the voting pattern in 2016, older you are more likely you were to be anti EU, not offensive but fact. There are reasons for that that are wide ranging but the trend is irrefutable.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 15, 2018)

So would it be democratic to offer up a vote on â€œremainâ€ or â€œleave dealâ€?
I mean how long did this deal take to compile? And seriously what would look different? 
Smell the coffee guys reality has just come down like a ton of bricks.. Raab got nowhere, Davis nowhere ... who else was nowhere ... basically it was a fickle notion and naive. 
Now the public sees what is on offer have a vote make a decision and crack on ... let the public now have their say.


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## Foxholer (Nov 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I would agree that democracy allows  people to have their own opinions *as long as they are acceptable to the thought police*.  I dont accept that someone suggesting  people of certain demographics all have similar opinions is very clever.  This is not and was not directed at you but rather your defence of it.
		
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I'm inclined to believe that you'll have to refer to Old Skier re the bold bit! 

I'd suggest that, as a retired individual, you, and probably others in a similar situation, are more likel;y to be more concerned with the immigration aspects of EU membership as opposed to the employment ones - and that's quite reasonable. Would you agree?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I'm inclined to believe that you'll have to refer to Old Skier re the bold bit! 

I'd suggest that, as a retired individual, you, and probably others in a similar situation, are more likel;y to be more concerned with the immigration aspects of EU membership as opposed to the employment ones - and that's quite reasonable. Would you agree?
		
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 Why do you suggest I am a retired individual?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			The age/retirement question is not irrelevant because of the voting pattern in 2016, older you are more likely you were to be anti EU, not offensive but fact. There are reasons for that that are wide ranging but the trend is irrefutable.
		
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And you have proof of this?

My voting slip didnt ask my age, did yours?


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## Papas1982 (Nov 15, 2018)

If we were to suddenly require customs paperwork completed for all loads in via dover, the roads woukd become lorry parks. Atm we simply don't have the infrastructure, staff or systems in place to handle them. The money set aside for this currently is farcical.

When looking at clearance the government simply asked how long a vehicle took to clear through chief (customs clearance system used in dover). It's approx 30 secs from pressing button to clearance being produced. They then extrapolated that over the extra vehicles and came up with What They thought were viable solutions.

The problem is that not everything clears, plus you are dealing with people tjat speak very little English so getting the required from them is difficult. On average the time from start to finish is closer to 15 minutes.

There simply aren't enough hours in the day to clear all the trucks if they required it.


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## chrisd (Nov 15, 2018)

I'd just like to state that us over 65's have probably formed our opinions on the EU according to years and years of experience and NOT simply an out vote due to immigration.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			If we were to suddenly require customs paperwork completed for all loads in via dover, the roads woukd become lorry parks. Atm we simply don't have the infrastructure, staff or systems in place to handle them. The money set aside for this currently is farcical.

When looking at clearance the government simply asked how long a vehicle took to clear through chief (customs clearance system used in dover). It's approx 30 secs from pressing button to clearance being produced. They then extrapolated that over the extra vehicles and came up with What They thought were viable solutions.

The problem is that not everything clears, plus you are dealing with people tjat speak very little English so getting the required from them is difficult. On average the time from start to finish is closer to 15 minutes.

There simply aren't enough hours in the day to clear all the trucks if they required it.
		
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All this is assuming we have no system for pre clearance of trusted goods coming into the UK,  it is also assuming we would have tariffs on EU imports.  I would suggest the problems would be in Calais.


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## Papas1982 (Nov 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			All this is assuming we have no system for pre clearance of trusted goods coming into the UK,  it is also assuming we would have tariffs on EU imports.  I would suggest the problems would be in Calais.
		
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Well working in the industry for the largest clearance agent in Dover, the conversations I've heard suggest that the French won't be doing us any favours. We have to send our own customs staff to work in Calais because we don't trust them in regards to passport control.

If we don't agree a trade deal then even if we agree certain tariffs on eu goods, tell still need clearing. They'll like just get breaks on the duty rate they're liable for. 

So it's no more an assumption, than yours that everything will be sorted by the French...


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## User62651 (Nov 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			And you have proof of this?

My voting slip didnt ask my age, did yours?
		
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You seem upset, is that because your hard brexit view is not prevailing after gloating on here for years? There are multiple resources showing the breakdown of voting by age, consistent they are too, have a look if u like, or just deny.


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## Old Skier (Nov 15, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I'm inclined to believe that you'll have to refer to Old Skier re the bold bit! 

Click to expand...

While your taking a break from having a pop at others would you care to explain.


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			You seem upset, is that because your hard brexit view is not prevailing after gloating on here for years? There are multiple resources showing the breakdown of voting by age, consistent they are too, have a look if u like, or just deny.
		
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All the breakdowns published were based on surveys, not the actual results themselves.  So you can argue all day on how accurate they may or may not be but they are NOT number splits of the actual vote itself.


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## Crazyface (Nov 15, 2018)

If there is another vote, Ill sell up and move to a nice cheap euro country which is getting all our money. Then I'll laugh and laugh and laugh.....


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## bluewolf (Nov 15, 2018)

Crazyface said:



			If there is another vote, Ill sell up and move to a nice cheap euro country which is getting all our money. Then I'll laugh and laugh and laugh.....
		
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You're making it even more attractive now....


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			You're making it even more attractive now....
		
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Don't encourage him, he might end up here in Spain!!


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## bluewolf (Nov 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Don't encourage him, he might end up here in Spain!!
		
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If he did do one to Spain could we have a 3rd vote and strand him there?


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			If he did do one to Spain could we have a 3rd vote and strand him there?
		
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Stone, paper, scissors?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			You seem upset, is that because your hard brexit view is not prevailing after gloating on here for years? There are multiple resources showing the breakdown of voting by age, consistent they are too, have a look if u like, or just deny.
		
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Oh dear!  Gloating on here, is that your spiteful code for having a different view to yours.  Upset!  you certainly like to use emotion to reinforce a poor argument.  

i have met a lot of older people that voted remain. but that's just my little survey.


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## Mudball (Nov 15, 2018)

I havent read much about the deal due to work.  I hear noises about pro & cons.   I am sure this thread is also similarly split.  So here is a simple question to the Leavers (and Labour)
Without diving into 'leave means leave' or '6 point test' or some other 'respect for referedum but stay in market'

*1) What would have been a 'good deal'...  *

Remember the 'good deal' should not kill the economy with our biggest trading bloc, allow us to free trade, NI customs, should work in Wolverhampton as much as Westminister..   Rather than just being a naysayer like Rees-Mog, does anyone have a constructive list that will fly for both us and the EU??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2018)

Headline in tomorrow's Daily Mail

*Fury at preening Tory saboteurs: Angry backlash against Brexiteer plotters bidding to bring down Theresa May as moderate MPs warn a coup will destroy the government, damage the economy and jeopardise Brexit altogether*

Well I wonder who that is aimed at? And what of their acolytes and those who would have any of these preening saboteurs leading the Tory Party or PM?


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## bobmac (Nov 16, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			There's a distinct difference between *respecting* an opinion and *disagreeing* with it! If you can't recognise that difference, then I'd respectfully suggest you stop posting in this thread!
		
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Just to let you know, I will continue to post where I please.


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## chrisd (Nov 16, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Just to let you know, I will continue to post where I please.
		
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I'm not sure that his "respectful" suggestion was actually respectful. I'd also believe that if SILH commands respect he should be willing to give it too ðŸ‘


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## bobmac (Nov 16, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I'm not sure that his "respectful" suggestion was actually respectful. I'd also believe that if SILH commands respect he should be willing to give it too ðŸ‘
		
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I was always taught that respect has to be earned.
Anyway, I've got better things to do with my time than argue on here....... I'm planning on building a carport.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 16, 2018)

The longer this farce drags on, the more determined I am that I want out. The EU is truly an awful organisation.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 16, 2018)

Mudball said:



			I havent read much about the deal due to work.  I hear noises about pro & cons.   I am sure this thread is also similarly split.  So here is a simple question to the Leavers (and Labour)
Without diving into 'leave means leave' or '6 point test' or some other 'respect for referedum but stay in market'

*1) What would have been a 'good deal'...  *

Remember the 'good deal' should not kill the economy with our biggest trading bloc, allow us to free trade, NI customs, should work in Wolverhampton as much as Westminister..   Rather than just being a naysayer like Rees-Mog, does anyone have a constructive list that will fly for both us and the EU??
		
Click to expand...

A good deal is:

1) We make our own laws
2) We trade freely with the EU and the rest of the world
3) We set our own immigration policy


Not exactly rocket science but the EU are determined to prevent that.


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## DRW (Nov 16, 2018)

drive4show said:



			A good deal is:

1) We make our own laws
2) We trade freely with the EU and the rest of the world
3) We set our own immigration policy


Not exactly rocket science but the EU are determined to prevent that.
		
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Sadly that is a dream deal and never going to happen.

As a leaver at heart but mind says stay, I think the most likely was always no deal, going to be interesting to see what actually happens. Already seeing quite a few clients being affected by the Brexit, and money not being spent in the UK by large companies.......


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

drive4show said:



			A good deal is:

1) We make our own laws
2) We trade freely with the EU and the rest of the world
3) We set our own immigration policy


Not exactly rocket science but the EU are determined to prevent that.
		
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I think that's the unicorn deal, and point 2 would never happen without major concessions. I would have accepted point 2 being fair trading conditions with the EU. I certainly wouldn't accept the clause on offer, i.e. that our tariffs to the rest of the world are to be no lower than the EU tariff rates to the rest of the world.


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## adam6177 (Nov 16, 2018)

drive4show said:



			The longer this farce drags on, the more determined I am that I want out. The EU is truly an awful organisation.
		
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To be honest I'm a little surprised that hasn't become more apparent to more people, somehow it still "feels" as though the EU has come out of all this smelling of roses and I for one cannot understand how.


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## Foxholer (Nov 16, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you suggest I am a retired individual?
		
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Good point - an assumption on my part, from your description of the 'odd jobs' that you do, that may not have been correct.

Btw. Are you retired from/not primarily in your 'main job' - the CEO one?

Oh! The logic expressed in my post also applies to those nearing retirement or working, by choice, only occasionally  too.


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## Foxholer (Nov 16, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			While your taking a break from having a pop at others would you care to explain.
		
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If it wasn't obvious originally, then there's little I can add to help you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

And so - the backstop for NI/EU border control continues to exercise the minds of preening Tories ( thanks to the Daily Mail for that) such as Rees-Mogg - and it is being used as the basis for their opposition to the agreement that Mrs May has negotiated and for trying to get her dumped by the Tory Party.

But riddle me this.  I have been told endlessly by such as Rees-Mogg (and various Leave supporters hereabouts) that a solution to the NI/EU border issue already exists; that the border/customs control issue has always simply been a smokescreen for EU to work behind to force a terrible agreement on the UK.  The EU claim that a technical or other solution does not currently exist or might not exist by 31st Dec 2020 has just been a tactical pretence.

And so we end up with the agreement and a backstop in place - that has no date on it.  And why no date?  Because everybody agrees that there cannot be a 'hard' border between NI and the EU - and until a trade deal is finalised that does not require control - or a solution to implement the control that would be required if no such deal was agreed - then the UK *must *stay in a Customs Union with the EU.  TINA.

But why the fuss by the Tory preeners?  Because they have been telling us that a technological solution already exists - just that the EU wouldn't accept that fact.   ut the EU can now drop that pretence - and so when 31st Dec 2020 arrives the implementation of that solution will be complete.  And so the backstop will never be triggered and hence no need for a customs union with the EU for as long as it takes.


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			To be honest I'm a little surprised that hasn't become more apparent to more people, somehow it still "feels" as though the EU has come out of all this smelling of roses and I for one cannot understand how.
		
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But what have they actually done wrong? For them to give anything in the negotiation is them moving away from their current position. They have been very fair and equitable in most of the deal. Its only in the key areas that they haven't moved very far, or have offered terms that are very onerous. The UK could have said no to those terms, and said no deal.


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so - the backstop for NI/EU border control continues to exercise the minds of preening Tories ( thanks to the Daily Mail for that) such as Rees-Mogg - and it is being used as the basis for their opposition to the agreement that Mrs May has negotiated and for trying to get her dumped by the Tory Party.

But riddle me this.  I have been told endlessly by such as Rees-Mogg (and various Leave supporters hereabouts) that a solution to the NI/EU border issue already exists; that the border/customs control issue has always simply been a smokescreen for EU to work behind to force a terrible agreement on the UK.  The EU claim that a technical or other solution does not currently exist or might not exist by 31st Dec 2020 has just been a tactical pretence.
		
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There was a piece on the BBC News a couple of months back showing good coming into the EU from Russia into Estonia on a train. There were pylons by the side of the track with sensors on them and, I guess, some sort of RFID on the goods coming in. The piece was all about a technical solution already in existence, and being used when goods are coming into the EU. As you've been told, many times, there are technical solutions. Some of us have used those technical solutions, either importing from non-EU, or exporting from the EU BUT, as usual, you just won't accept that.

Why not book a ticket to Estonia and go and see what is there. Maybe you'll believe your own eyes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I'm not sure that his "respectful" suggestion was actually respectful. I'd also believe that if SILH commands respect he should be willing to give it too ðŸ‘
		
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Where do I *ever* show disrespect to a forum member - I truly never wish to do so.  I may disagree vehemently with a view expressed - I might think it completely utter rubbish - but that does not mean that I show disrespect to the person expressing it.  

I might say that I believe that what the country is doing in leaving the EU is utter madness - complete self-harming folly - but that does not mean that I think those who voted to leave are either mad or foolish.

And if I have *ever* expressed disrespect to any individual I apologise.

Meanwhile the preeners continue to pretend (to essentially lie to the electorate) that there is a better agreement to be had that could, even now - with 100 days to go, be agreed - if only May were not there. When in fact the truth must surely be that it is _May's Deal, No Deal or Remain_ - and the only way that we will know is by letting the electorate choose.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I think that's the unicorn deal, and point 2 would never happen without major concessions. I would have accepted point 2 being fair trading conditions with the EU. I certainly wouldn't accept the clause on offer, i.e. that our tariffs to the rest of the world are to be no lower than the EU tariff rates to the rest of the world.
		
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Careful referring to unicorns Bri - you'll be pulled up...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			But what have they actually done wrong? For them to give anything in the negotiation is them moving away from their current position. They have been very fair and equitable in most of the deal. Its only in the key areas that they haven't moved very far, or have offered terms that are very onerous. The UK could have said no to those terms, and said no deal.
		
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You are right Bri - the EU has simply adhered to the rules of the EU - and where they have been able to move they have moved whilst maintaining the rules.  And so the EU wanted NI/EU border control down the Irish Sea - that is what they wanted.  The simplest solution *from their perspective *and from the perspective of adherence to the EU rules.  But they have compromised to the positions in the agreement.  

Our problem in the UK is that if you do not fully understand the EU rules (as I don't) then we do not actually know how far the EU has compromised - maybe not on the rules - but from their optimal and preferred solution to any issue whilst adhering to the rules.

And because May does not seem to have achieved *everything *that the strongest proponents of Leave much have wished or been promised (see Lancaster House speech) - it might appear that the EU has not compromised - and that is what will be pushed - EU intransigence.


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Where do I *ever* show disrespect to a forum member - I truly never wish to do so.  I may disagree vehemently with a view expressed - I might think it completely utter rubbish - but that does not mean that I show disrespect to the person expressing it. 

I might say that I believe that what the country is doing in leaving the EU is utter madness - complete self-harming folly - but that does not mean that I think those who voted to leave are either mad or foolish.

And if I have *ever* expressed disrespect to any individual I apologise.

Meanwhile the preeners continue to pretend (to essentially lie to the electorate) that there is a better agreement to be had that could, even now - with 100 days to go, be agreed - if only May were not there. When in fact the truth must surely be that it is _May's Deal, No Deal or Remain_ - and the only way that we will know is by letting the electorate choose.
		
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I don't think you've ever shown any disrespect to any individual. You may have bitten back a little sharp occasionally but only under a fair bit of flak coming your way. You have, however, generalised occasionally, basically lumping all Leavers with the same mindset.

I growled at Phil yesterday over his generalisation based on age, and it is those generalisations that cause division. 

At the end of the day I'd still have another drink with you, and would love a round of golf. Opinions might differ but they're only bit of our make up as an individual.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			There was a piece on the BBC News a couple of months back showing good coming into the EU from Russia into Estonia on a train. There were pylons by the side of the track with sensors on them and, I guess, some sort of RFID on the goods coming in. The piece was all about a technical solution already in existence, and being used when goods are coming into the EU. As you've been told, many times, there are technical solutions. Some of us have used those technical solutions, either importing from non-EU, or exporting from the EU BUT, as usual, you just won't accept that.

Why not book a ticket to Estonia and go and see what is there. Maybe you'll believe your own eyes.
		
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In which case the EU will drop the pretence and a technological solution will be in place for the 31st Dec 2020.  Backstop irrelevant.  Expressing fears about the backstop and using it to attack May are a red herring.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think you've ever shown any disrespect to any individual. You may have bitten back a little sharp occasionally but only under a fair bit of flak coming your way. You have, however, generalised occasionally, basically lumping all Leavers with the same mindset.

I growled at Phil yesterday over his generalisation based on age, and it is those generalisations that cause division.

At the end of the day I'd still have another drink with you, and would love a round of golf. Opinions might differ but they're only bit of our make up as an individual.
		
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Thank you Sir! Almost bringing tears to my eyes given the grief I get...


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Careful referring to unicorns Bri - you'll be pulled up...

Click to expand...

I expect to see the Unicorns simile in the OED by year end.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I expect to see the Unicorns simile in the OED by year end.

Click to expand...

A simile for unicorn...hmmm - deliberate - or a very pertinent typo?  Unicorn = something fabulous that doesn't exist?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 16, 2018)

Scots Tory MP's calling for the resignation of the Scottish Secretary.
Well he did promise to resign if NI got a better Brexit deal than Scotland, mind you so did the Scots Tory leader.

Watch this space [not]


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## Old Skier (Nov 16, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			If it wasn't obvious originally, then there's little I can add to help you.
		
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If it wasn't obvious then there was no point. Like most of your petty little dig posts to all and sundry on here.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 16, 2018)

I think I could almost accept this deal  except for us having to apply minimum tariffs to the levels of those used by the EU. This is not making us an independent country but one where our international trade is still regulated by the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 16, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots Tory MP's calling for the resignation of the Scottish Secretary.
Well he did promise to resign if NI got a better Brexit deal than Scotland, mind you so did the Scots Tory leader.

Watch this space [not]
		
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NI don't have a Brexit deal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Ardent Leave proponent just interviewed by Shelagh Fogarty - told by Shelagh that the EU are saying today that there is no revising of the current draft Withdrawal Agreement - that enabling revisions to help May sort out her internal political issues is not for the EU.  

When the Leaver is asked why get rid of May and put someone else in place to renegotiate the agreement - he replies - _'well they would say that' _ The denial is astonishing.

And we learn that Angela Leadsom - supposedly a supporter of May and the agreement - is said to be getting a working group together to re-write the draft Brexit Withdrawal Agreement over the next week.  Right.  OK.  Rewrite the agreement for what reason - given the EU are saying - no revisions.  I suppose they could wave it in front of the Great British public and claim that this is what the agreement could have looked like - and still could?  What about the EU Angela...?

Good luck Angela.  Nice to get sight of your duplicity.


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ardent Leave proponent just interviewed by Shelagh Fogarty - told by Shelagh that the EU are saying today that there is no revising of the current draft Withdrawal Agreement - that enabling revisions to help May sort out her internal political issues is not for the EU. 

When the Leaver is asked why get rid of May and put someone else in place to renegotiate the agreement - he replies - _'well they would say that' _ The denial is astonishing.

And we learn that Angela Leadsom - supposedly a supporter of May and the agreement - is said to be getting a working group together to re-write the draft Brexit Withdrawal Agreement over the next week.  Right.  OK.  Rewrite the agreement for what reason - given the EU are saying - no revisions.  I suppose they could wave it in front of the Great British public and claim that this is what the agreement could have looked like - and still could?  What about the EU Angela...?

Good luck Angela.  Nice to get sight of your duplicity.
		
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I would expect the EU to say this is the final deal on offer until the UK formally refuses the deal. Think about it, why would someone say this is the deal but if you ask for more we'll revise the deal. Seems pretty obvious to me.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ardent Leave proponent just interviewed by Shelagh Fogarty - told by Shelagh that the EU are saying today that there is no revising of the current draft Withdrawal Agreement - that enabling revisions to help May sort out her internal political issues is not for the EU.

When the Leaver is asked why get rid of May and put someone else in place to renegotiate the agreement - he replies - _'well they would say that' _ The denial is astonishing.

And we learn that Angela Leadsom - supposedly a supporter of May and the agreement - is said to be getting a working group together to re-write the draft Brexit Withdrawal Agreement over the next week.  Right.  OK.  Rewrite the agreement for what reason - given the EU are saying - no revisions.  I suppose they could wave it in front of the Great British public and claim that this is what the agreement could have looked like - and still could?  What about the EU Angela...?

Good luck Angela.  Nice to get sight of your duplicity.
		
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But the Corbynistas are saying if we have a General Election and they are in.power they will negotiate a completely different agreement where we will get all the same benefits of being in the Eu.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I would expect the EU to say this is the final deal on offer until the UK formally refuses the deal. Think about it, why would someone say this is the deal but if you ask for more we'll revise the deal. Seems pretty obvious to me.
		
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I agree with this, but there is also the flip side as well if one of the EU countries don't accept a particular part of the agreement. Are the EU going to say no revisions or are they going to come back and say we need to amend this bit to get it passed.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ardent Leave proponent just interviewed by Shelagh Fogarty - told by Shelagh that the EU are saying today that there is no revising of the current draft Withdrawal Agreement - that enabling revisions to help May sort out her internal political issues is not for the EU. 

When the Leaver is asked why get rid of May and put someone else in place to renegotiate the agreement - he replies - _'well they would say that' _ The denial is astonishing.

And we learn that Angela Leadsom - supposedly a supporter of May and the agreement - is said to be getting a working group together to re-write the draft Brexit Withdrawal Agreement over the next week.  Right.  OK.  Rewrite the agreement for what reason - given the EU are saying - no revisions.  I suppose they could wave it in front of the Great British public and claim that this is what the agreement could have looked like - and still could?  What about the EU Angela...?

Good luck Angela.  Nice to get sight of your duplicity.
		
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As I read this, you are agreeing that the EU should not have to renegotiate? THEY are laying down the law to US and you want to be part of that organisation?


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

I think the EU Irish/N Ireland solution is worse the more you look at it...for example, VAT will still be collected in Northern Ireland for the EU. Surely the price paid for a product in NI should be exempt form EU VAT?

The UK courts will be responsible for the continued implementation of EU law in NI.

Any goods from non-EU countries imported into NI will be subject to EU tariff rates - that's even worse than the previously stated tariffs rules offered for the rest UK.

The UK must apply the same tariff quotas as the EU.

Goods being exported from Ireland to the rest of the EU may pass freely through the UK without any interference from Customs or border checks. Transition agreements do exist in the rest of the world, however, there is the right to make checks. The Uk won't have this right, even if criminality is suspected.

All environmental legislation, both EU and global will continue in the UK after Brexit.

Max levels of agricultural subsidies will be decided by a joint committee - however the previous para states that the max level of subsidy of a produce that is exported to the EU will not exceed the EU rates.

The UK gov will set up an independent authority to supervise subsidies. This independent authority will operate under Union State Aid Provisions. The EU and the independent authority will share information to ensure the UK is compliant. WOW!! An EU body controlling the UK body that controls UK subsidies. WOW!! The UK body will consult with the EU on all draft decisions to ensure compliance. WOW!! The independent authority will not adopt the draft decision into law until it has been approved by the EU. WOW!! The UK courts will ensure the independent body complies with the decisions passed down from the EU body. WOW!! The EU will have legal standing in the decision making and the right to intervene. WOW!!

That's me 400 pages in. I will have probably misunderstood some of this but it doesn't sit comfortably with me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I would expect the EU to say this is the final deal on offer until the UK formally refuses the deal. Think about it, why would someone say this is the deal but if you ask for more we'll revise the deal. Seems pretty obvious to me.
		
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Indeed they might - but what on earth are the EU going to move on?  What about the Agreement is it that Leave voters don't like.  Strikes me that it is simply the backstop for NI/EU border control - and as I have said - Leavers tell us that technological solutions for NI/EU border control *already *exist!  It is just that the EU choose to pretend/insist that they don't.  So where's their gripe?


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## chrisd (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Where do I *ever* show disrespect to a forum member - I truly never wish to do so.  I may disagree vehemently with a view expressed - I might think it completely utter rubbish - but that does not mean that I show disrespect to the person expressing it. 

I might say that I believe that what the country is doing in leaving the EU is utter madness - complete self-harming folly - but that does not mean that I think those who voted to leave are either mad or foolish.

And if I have *ever* expressed disrespect to any individual I apologise.

Meanwhile the preeners continue to pretend (to essentially lie to the electorate) that there is a better agreement to be had that could, even now - with 100 days to go, be agreed - if only May were not there. When in fact the truth must surely be that it is _May's Deal, No Deal or Remain_ - and the only way that we will know is by letting the electorate choose.
		
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 Sorry, I might not have been entirely clear, it was Foxholer who I said was not being entirely respectful with his comment to Bob. But I agree with Hobbit in that I object to your generalisation of leavers and in that matter you are being disrespectful at times. However, like Hobbit, I'd happily play a round of golf with you  - so long as politics was taboo


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## bluewolf (Nov 16, 2018)

drive4show said:



			As I read this, you are agreeing that the EU should not have to renegotiate? THEY are laying down the law to US and you want to be part of that organisation?
		
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Life's all about opinions mate. As far as I can see it, the EU stated from the start that there were certain things they could not negotiate on. There is ABSOLUTELY no way they can give us a better deal than a current member state gets. There is absolutely no business sense in that. They are willing to negotiate around these margins.

Unfortunately, the areas that they don't want to negotiate on are the exact areas that we do want to negotiate on. It was always going to be a stalemate. It couldn't be anything else. Anyone saying that it could be is either misguided or is lying.

As an example, and I hate to use the golf club analogy as it's clumsy and some pedantic dullard will always find the smallest crack in it and whinge about it, but, Would you stay as a member of your golf club if a non member was playing regularly for less money and was still getting a handicap and playing in comps? There has to be a benefit to being a member or everyone leaves..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			But the Corbynistas are saying if we have a General Election and they are in.power they will negotiate a completely different agreement where we will get all the same benefits of being in the Eu.
		
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They might well be saying that.  But Labour are not the party in government; the Tories are - and so they have to sort out this unholy mess - this awful shambles.

My understanding is that, were Labour in government prior to 29th March, they would drop some of May's Red Lines that have so constrained what the EU could offer, and seek an extension to the Art50 period.  I have heard that the EU would most likely agree to that given the change of government and change of UK constraints/demands - as long as the extension did not run to the date of the European Parliament elections 23rd-26th May 2019.

BTW - I am most certainly do not support Corbyn.


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed they might - but what on earth are the EU going to move on?  What about the Agreement is it that Leave voters don't like.  Strikes me that it is simply the backstop for NI/EU border control - and as I have said - Leavers tell us that technological solutions for NI/EU border control *already *exist!  It is just that the EU choose to pretend/insist that they don't.  So where's their gripe?
		
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The semantics of why the EU are saying the technological solutions don't exist is something you'd have to ask them. I might suggest that its to do with cost but the Netherlands and France are spending a fortune on putting controls in place. Why can't the same be done in Ireland? The cynical part of me feels that the EU is just being awkward. They've recognised the politics of the the people both sides of the border, and put Articles in place in the Agreement to cover that. For some strange reason they won't apply the same rules for trade to the Irish border as they do to the border in Estonia.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Sorry, I might not have been entirely clear, it was Foxholer who I said was not being entirely respectful with his comment to Bob. But I agree with Hobbit in that I object to your generalisation of leavers and in that matter you are being disrespectful at times. However, like Hobbit, I'd happily play a round of golf with you  - so long as politics was taboo
		
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I will repeat.  I consider the decision that the UK electorate (as a collective) has made to leave the EU, to be insane, mad and a folly of the highest degree.  I do not think the same about individual voters.  We all, each and every one of us, had our very good reasons for voting as we did.  But I might suggest that whilst we were sold the benefits of leaving - few of us actually had a real understanding of all the complexities, impacts and issues associated with leaving in the context of the constraints / red lines as laid down by Theresa May in her Lancaster House speech - these being laid out *after *the referendum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The semantics of why the EU are saying the technological solutions don't exist is something you'd have to ask them. I might suggest that its to do with cost but the Netherlands and France are spending a fortune on putting controls in place. Why can't the same be done in Ireland? The cynical part of me feels that the EU is just being awkward. They've recognised the politics of the the people both sides of the border, and put Articles in place in the Agreement to cover that. For some strange reason they won't apply the same rules for trade to the Irish border as they do to the border in Estonia.
		
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The EU might have taken their stance on technological solutions available on purely tactical reasons - that's part of negotiation n'est-ce pas?  

And it may well be that during the transition period implementation of such technological solutions that already exist, and that are being implemented elsewhere, can be planned and/or developed further.  

So that if, come end July 2020, no trade agreement is in sight that removes the need for any NI/EU border control, then the backstop kicks-in and implementation of said border control solutions is initiated.  The fact of there being no backstop end date is a red herring if technological solutions are in development or are already being implemented.  

If *no* such solutions exist at the moment, and the EU were *not *simply playing the border control card as a negotiating tactic - then it is hardly surprising that an open-ended backstop period is felt necessary.  As it must be.  There must be *no *hard border between EU and NI - even if that means the UK staying in a Customs Union with the EU for as long as...surely that is blindingly obvious to all Leave voters.


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I will repeat.  I consider the decision that the UK electorate (as a collective) has made to leave the EU, to be insane, mad and a folly of the highest degree.  I do not think the same about individual voters.  We all, each and every one of us, had our very good reasons for voting as we did.  But I might suggest that whilst we were sold the benefits of leaving - few of us actually had a real understanding of all the complexities, impacts and issues associated with leaving in the context of the constraints / red lines as laid down by Theresa May in her Lancaster House speech - these being laid out *after *the referendum.
		
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The same could be said of the Remain voters. How many of them were aware of the intention to create an EU army? How many of them were aware that the EU intend to create the position of an EU Chancellor, who will have authority to instruct individual countries on their spending? How many were aware of the proposed EU budget numbers for '21 to '27? I can't remember what exactly Juncker said about a week after the vote but it confirmed the Chancellor intention.


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## bluewolf (Nov 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The same could be said of the Remain voters. How many of them were aware of the intention to create an EU army? How many of them were aware that the EU intend to create the position of an EU Chancellor, who will have authority to instruct individual countries on their spending? How many were aware of the proposed EU budget numbers for '21 to '27? I can't remember what exactly Juncker said about a week after the vote but it confirmed the Chancellor intention.
		
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Just on a side note.. What is the big issue about an EU army. When we have Russia on the Euro border, America flexing its muscles and China waiting patiently in the background. What is the big issue with becoming what would be the biggest dog in the park. A Liberal Superpower with an economy to match.. If you think about it along those lines, it becomes quite apparent why Russia would (allegedly) meddle in our affairs,,


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Sorry, I might not have been entirely clear, it was Foxholer who I said was not being entirely respectful with his comment to Bob. But I agree with Hobbit in that I object to your generalisation of leavers and in that matter you are being disrespectful at times. However, like Hobbit, I'd happily play a round of golf with you  - so long as politics was taboo
		
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BTW - my bestest golfing buddy was a Leave voter.  We don't talk about it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The same could be said of the Remain voters. How many of them were aware of the intention to create an EU army? How many of them were aware that the EU intend to create the position of an EU Chancellor, who will have authority to instruct individual countries on their spending? How many were aware of the proposed EU budget numbers for '21 to '27? I can't remember what exactly Juncker said about a week after the vote but it confirmed the Chancellor intention.
		
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All true - not many of us I suspect - and I admit to not being too worried about the future of the EU in such areas, given that the UK has general veto rights in many if not most areas in which the scope of the EU might expand.  Where such developments of the EU were drawn to my attention I considered them acceptable given the benefits I see in EU membership and the problems, issues and drawbacks associated with Leaving.


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Just on a side note.. What is the big issue about an EU army. When we have Russia on the Euro border, America flexing its muscles and China waiting patiently in the background. What is the big issue with becoming what would be the biggest dog in the park. A Liberal Superpower with an economy to match.. If you think about it along those lines, it becomes quite apparent why Russia would (allegedly) meddle in our affairs,,
		
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I wouldn't want to antagonise Russia. There was a paper written a few years back by whoever from Cambridge. He quoted Putin saying that Russia has always feared an army on its western border, and that history supports those fears, even if there's no base for those fears in the modern world. Is there a need for an EU army when we already have NATO? The extra money that would go towards creating an EU army, whilst still honouring the NATO commitment, could be used to bolster the NATO commitment. 

That would satisfy Trump, who won't be here forever anyway.


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All true - not many of us I suspect - and I admit to not being too worried about the future of the EU in such areas, given that the UK has general veto rights in many if not most areas in which the scope of the EU might expand.  Where such developments of the EU were drawn to my attention I considered them acceptable given the benefits I see in EU membership and the problems, issues and drawbacks associated with Leaving.
		
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But you're personalising it to justify it. 

Some Remainers would have known those things, just as some Leavers will have known what they were voting for. Cameron et al told us that the UK would be leaving the single market and the customs union.


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## bluewolf (Nov 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I wouldn't want to antagonise Russia. There was a paper written a few years back by whoever from Cambridge. He quoted Putin saying that Russia has always feared an army on its western border, and that history supports those fears, even if there's no base for those fears in the modern world. Is there a need for an EU army when we already have NATO? The extra money that would go towards creating an EU army, whilst still honouring the NATO commitment, could be used to bolster the NATO commitment.

That would satisfy Trump, who won't be here forever anyway.
		
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I agree that in the long run we should be strengthening NATO, but in the current climate then I'm failing to see why discussions surrounding an EU Army (which we would have a veto on) appear to be a step too far for some. Increased contributions I can understand. Increased control from Brussels I can understand. An Eu Army is one I'm struggling with..

Still, it takes all sorts eh?


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## Old Skier (Nov 16, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Just on a side note.. What is the big issue about an EU army,
		
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Finance and commitment for starters before you go into command and control.

NATO is failing because many who signed up will not honor their funding arrangements and there have been several instances where countries have refused to release assets (one reason that gets the yanks back up long before Trump).

But it's never going to happen, the EU have never suggested it. I think that's what SILH said.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Where do I *ever* show disrespect to a forum member - I truly never wish to do so.  I may disagree vehemently with a view expressed - I might think it completely utter rubbish - but that does not mean that I show disrespect to the person expressing it. 

I might say that I believe that what the country is doing in leaving the EU is utter madness - complete self-harming folly - but that does not mean that I think those who voted to leave are either mad or foolish.

And if I have *ever* expressed disrespect to any individual I apologise.

Meanwhile the preeners continue to pretend (to essentially lie to the electorate) that there is a better agreement to be had that could, even now - with 100 days to go, be agreed - if only May were not there. When in fact the truth must surely be that it is _May's Deal, No Deal or Remain_ - and the only way that we will know is by letting the electorate choose.
		
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You have shown plenty of disrespect to anyone who chose to vote Leave as I demonstrated in the past, quoting your posts; when confronted with the indiscretions you ran away for a few days and civilised debate reigned on the thread.  The fact that the old thread has been wiped doesn't mean that my memory got wiped at the same time.  The general tone of it was an inference that all Leave voters were racist knuckle-draggers with single figure IQ's. To hide behind an "apology" of this nature is actually more insulting to me the some of the vitriol you posted on here.  

And the reason that you get so much venom on here was your insistence on personalising the insults rather than indulging in sensible discussion.  

Still I suppose you'll be happy that someone else has taken the bait and you are managing to perpetuate your massive wind up.   Well done.


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## Slime (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile the preeners continue to pretend (to essentially lie to the electorate) that there is a better agreement to be had that could, even now - with 100 days to go, be agreed - if only May were not there. *When in fact the truth must surely be that it is May's Deal, No Deal or Remain - and the only way that we will know is by letting the electorate choose.*

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The electorate have already made their choice regarding the third choice, so that has to be excluded from any further vote.
That'd just play into the remainers' hands, which is exactly what they are after.
Surely, in a democracy, the vote has to be _*May's Deal or No Deal.*_


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## chrisd (Nov 16, 2018)

Let's face it, the Labour Party are simply a bunch of chancers,  no attempt by them to abide by the public vote as they said they would, just try and grab a General Election because it's realistically the only chance they have with Corbyn in charge.


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## Slime (Nov 16, 2018)

Oh, and I'd go for_ *No Deal!*_


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Where do I *ever* show disrespect to a forum member - I truly never wish to do so.  I may disagree vehemently with a view expressed - I might think it completely utter rubbish - but that does not mean that I show disrespect to the person expressing it. 

I might say that I believe that what the country is doing in leaving the EU is utter madness - complete self-harming folly - but that does not mean that I think those who voted to leave are either mad or foolish.

And if I have *ever* expressed disrespect to any individual I apologise.

Meanwhile the preeners continue to pretend (to essentially lie to the electorate) that there is a better agreement to be had that could, even now - with 100 days to go, be agreed - if only May were not there. *When in fact the truth must surely be that it is May's Deal, No Deal or Remain - and the only way that we will know is by letting the electorate choose.*

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Wrong , not for the first time in this thread or the last time but thatâ€™s just wrong 

We have had one vote already - out or in and the result was out 

Any vote now ( if there was a vote ) would only be - Out with deal or no deal


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I agree that in the long run we should be strengthening NATO, but in the current climate then I'm failing to see why discussions surrounding an EU Army (which we would have a veto on) appear to be a step too far for some. Increased contributions I can understand. Increased control from Brussels I can understand. An Eu Army is one I'm struggling with..

Still, it takes all sorts eh?
		
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The UK could veto the creation of the EU army but its already in existence in a different form covered by the EU Foreign and Security policy. It operates across 3 continents. More worrying for Russia is the Neighbourhood Partnership the EU has signed with Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, the Republic of Moldova and Ukraine, which includes security. Putin is not a happy bunny about it. Its antagonistic, and not good politics to shift the balance of power in the region.

The EU has already instructed the member states that Member States must â€˜undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities,' using Article 42(3). That instruction was sent out knowing that a referendum would be needed in both Ireland and the UK if it went ahead with the formal creation of an EU army. They're forcing it through by the back door - that's the creeping federalism that many Leavers griped about.


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## JamesR (Nov 16, 2018)

Slime said:



			The electorate have already made their choice regarding the third choice, so that has to be excluded from any further vote.
That'd just play into the remainers' hands, which is exactly what they are after.
Surely, in a democracy, the vote has to be _*May's Deal or No Deal.*_

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By that reckoning the electorate have already made there choice about the deal or no deal situation.
The vote was to leave, which surely means to leave everything.

Remain or leave, there wasnâ€™t any mention of half in half out, deals or backstops on the ballot paper.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 16, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BTW - my bestest golfing buddy was a Leave voter.  We don't talk about it  

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One of my bowls partners is a raving nae surrender Britnat unionist, even flies a flag in his garden, we get along just fine. 

BTW anyone previously heard of the new Brexit Minister ?
Cambridge graduate who worked in finance, he should fit in just fine.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 16, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW anyone previously heard of the new Brexit Minister ?
Cambridge graduate who worked in finance, he should fit in just fine.
		
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There are some fantastic comments on the BBC News website under the story about his appointment. Things along the lines of "At the rate they're going through them everyone in the country is going to get a shot at being Brexit Secretary before we leave" or "There are only 5 more Brexit Secretaries until Xmas" but i think my favourite so far is "Theresa May has managed to fully respect the result of the referendum with her negotiations. If her agreement gets passed we'll be 52% out and 48% in".

But to answer your question, nope not a scooby who he is.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 16, 2018)

Question; if, as it appears, our political masters are determined to keep us in, how much would remaining in cost us?  I'm sure Macron & Merkel would welcome our money with open arms if the decision was made, but on what terms would we return; same as we left on; receive some concessions; or be punished for our cheek?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 16, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Question; if, as it appears, our political masters are determined to keep us in, how much would remaining in cost us?  I'm sure Macron & Merkel would welcome our money with open arms if the decision was made, but on what terms would we return; same as we left on; receive some concessions; or be punished for our cheek?
		
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I donâ€™t think we would be â€œpunishedâ€ as such but I think we would actually get some concessions - the likes that Cameron should have negotiated first time around. I donâ€™t think we would be â€œworse offâ€ if we stayed in the EU


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## spongebob59 (Nov 16, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Let's face it, the Labour Party are simply a bunch of chancers,  no attempt by them to abide by the public vote as they said they would, just try and grab a General Election because it's realistically the only chance they have with Corbyn in charge.
		
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Did anyone watch QT last night ?

The trotsky union guy !!

He was baying for a GE, like Labour was a sho e in to win.
The opinion polls I've seen suggest otherwise but if the did get i n I can't see them having a majority unless the do a deal with the SNP.


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## chrisd (Nov 16, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			Did anyone watch QT last night ?

The trotsky union guy !!

He was baying for a GE, like Labour was a sho e in to win.
The opinion polls I've seen suggest otherwise but if the did get i n I can't see them having a majority unless the do a deal with the SNP.
		
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I don't understand QT having speakers who can't debate, he was a total plank!


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## JamesR (Nov 16, 2018)

JamesR said:



			By that reckoning the electorate have already made there choice about the deal or no deal situation.
The vote was to leave, which surely means to leave everything.

Remain or leave, there wasnâ€™t any mention of half in half out, deals or backstops on the ballot paper.
		
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I probably ought to add that Iâ€™m a staunch remainer...but thatâ€™s where I understood the Brexshit conundrum to be.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 16, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I don't understand QT having speakers who can't debate, he was a total plank!
		
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He did have a lot of support from the audience though.
Unlike the horrendous narcistic wild eyed shouty Tory woman


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## spongebob59 (Nov 16, 2018)

That all depends where the BBC microphones are.


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## chrisd (Nov 17, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He did have a lot of support from the audience though.
Unlike the horrendous narcistic wild eyed shouty Tory woman

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Rubbish - the audience groaned every time he mentioned General  Election


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 17, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Rubbish - the audience groaned every time he mentioned General  Election
		
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And applauded almost everything else he said.
The did not groan at scary women though, they booed and yelled. Did you miss that bit.

That's Westminster politics for you ATM the two extremes of left and right shouting and yelling at each other. Sad situation for a once proud nation.


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## Hobbit (Nov 17, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Question; if, as it appears, our political masters are determined to keep us in, how much would remaining in cost us?  I'm sure Macron & Merkel would welcome our money with open arms if the decision was made, but on what terms would we return; same as we left on; receive some concessions; or be punished for our cheek?
		
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Good question(s). If the EU didn't change, then the budget contributions would remain the same till 2021, when the new budget starts. The proposed increase to Â£22bn; that's still up for debate and approval in the EU parliament. I doubt it will go through at that level but who knows.

The cost of an EU army, and the position of EU chancellor; The cost of admin depts for both won't come cheap. Would the specification of an EU army mean increasing the size of our armed forces? Who knows. But in both cases its not just cost. Who says there has to be a deployment of the EU army? What would the new financial controls look like that the EU chancellor would have?

And then there's the potential increasing size of the EU and what the funding arrangements would be? Would there be more takers than givers? How many countries in Eastern Europe, the Caucuses etc have robust economies?

As a trading bloc, which lots of Remainers bleat about losing, its great. But its not just a trading bloc anymore.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I think I could almost accept this deal  except for us having to apply minimum tariffs to the levels of those used by the EU. This is not making us an independent country but one where our international trade is still regulated by the EU.
		
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I haven't read the whole document but is the restriction on setting our own tariffs just during the transition and backstop phases or is it written as a permanent thing? If it's the former then I can understand it but the latter would surely cross one of May's red lines for being able to negotiate our own trade deals.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ardent Leave proponent just interviewed by Shelagh Fogarty - told by Shelagh that the EU are saying today that there is no revising of the current draft Withdrawal Agreement - that enabling revisions to help May sort out her internal political issues is not for the EU. 

When the Leaver is asked why get rid of May and put someone else in place to renegotiate the agreement - he replies - _'well they would say that' _ The denial is astonishing.

And we learn that Angela Leadsom - supposedly a supporter of May and the agreement - is said to be getting a working group together to re-write the draft Brexit Withdrawal Agreement over the next week.  Right.  OK.  Rewrite the agreement for what reason - given the EU are saying - no revisions.  I suppose they could wave it in front of the Great British public and claim that this is what the agreement could have looked like - and still could?  What about the EU Angela...?

Good luck Angela.  Nice to get sight of your duplicity.
		
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Reports today that France are leading  a group of EU member states, including Netherlands, Spain, Denmark and Portugal, calling for changes to the agreement with regards to fishing rights. Seems a bit rich considering yesterday a French minister was warning that if the UK didn't accept the deal as agreed we would face "economic disaster". I assume SiLH will be sticking to his principles and demanding no revisions from the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 17, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I haven't read the whole document but is the restriction on setting our own tariffs just during the transition and backstop phases or is it written as a permanent thing? If it's the former then I can understand it but the latter would surely cross one of May's red lines for being able to negotiate our own trade deals.
		
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I believe it to be permanent.  We would also not be able to subsidise industries.   Looks like it stitches us up in many areas including security sharing where we would have to pay in the transition and have no right after, bit rich seeing most of the intelligence comes from us with the best security services.    No Deal for me.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe it to be permanent.  We would also not be able to subsidise industries.   Looks like it stitches us up in many areas including security sharing where we would have to pay in the transition and have no right after, bit rich seeing most of the intelligence comes from us with the best security services.    No Deal for me.
		
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If that is correct then how can anyone say that we will be agreeing our own trade deals and will have actually left the EU? It's like divorcing your wife and agreeing that she gets to decide who you are allowed to date after the divorce.


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## drdel (Nov 17, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Good question(s). If the EU didn't change, then the budget contributions would remain the same till 2021, when the new budget starts. The proposed increase to Â£22bn; that's still up for debate and approval in the EU parliament. I doubt it will go through at that level but who knows.

The cost of an EU army, and the position of EU chancellor; The cost of admin depts for both won't come cheap. Would the specification of an EU army mean increasing the size of our armed forces? Who knows. But in both cases its not just cost. Who says there has to be a deployment of the EU army? What would the new financial controls look like that the EU chancellor would have?

And then there's the potential increasing size of the EU and what the funding arrangements would be? Would there be more takers than givers? How many countries in Eastern Europe, the Caucuses etc have robust economies?

As a trading bloc, which lots of Remainers bleat about losing, its great. But its not just a trading bloc anymore.
		
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I agree. 

If we rejoined, as Remainers would love, - how long before the sterling became the Euro and the ECB and Frankfurt decided the 'City' was dissolved?

EU wide defence forces are unmanageable.  An EU 'Army' would be hog-tied by the '27' tortuous decision process - at a time when agility is the key to operations. I'm assuming when they say EU Army they are including Air and Naval forces but I'm not sure and have no confidence that the EU members can make a significant contribution.


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## Foxholer (Nov 17, 2018)

There is so much that is wrong with this 'deal' that I cannot envisage anyone accepting it! There are too many 'still permanently tied to EU' clauses imo. Nothing wrong with ties during a 'transition' period - especially if that period is actually specified.

There is no way this 'deal' will be accepted by Parliament, which might - in the back of her mind - be exactly what May is trying to achieve.

If some sort of consensus 'deal' was created, that would be acceptable to Parliament (created through the parliamentary process), then she could go back to the EU with a 'UK offer'. Not sure either whether that is likely/possible nor whether such a 'deal' would be agreed to by the EU.

The thought of an EU Army horrifies me - for several reasons!


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## IanM (Nov 17, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063808096559091712
It's all about trade remember...no interest in stealing your soverignty


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## IanM (Nov 17, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063520968331730945


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## woody69 (Nov 17, 2018)

drive4show said:



			A good deal is:

1) We make our own laws
2) We trade freely with the EU and the rest of the world
3) We set our own immigration policy


Not exactly rocket science but the EU are determined to prevent that.
		
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1. I'm still interested to hear of one single EU Law that overwrites UK Law that people have a problem with. Plus, on the flip side as soon as the UK is out of the EU, we are no longer involved in the rule-writing process and thus potentially make us a less attractive location for foreign investment.
2. There is no better trade deal with the EU than we have now within the Single Market. If we want to be in the Single Market but not in the EU, i.e. Norway like deal then you have have to sacrifice a lot of things e.g. accept free movement of people. We could possibly negotiate a Canada style deal to get rid of a lot of the tariffs and get access to the Single Market without FoM, but the problem with that is it doesn't cover services, which is a rather dominant part of the UK economy. Negotiating that deal would take years and we still wouldn't have as good a deal as we have now.
3. Setting aside the absolute fact that EU immigration was beneficial to the UK economy versus non- EU immigration, which we have complete control over, that has a negative effect on the economy, whilst a member of the EU, the UK has the powers to limit EU immigration, but the government simply didn't use it. According to the EU, citizens must be self supporting after 3-months, i.e. working, a member of the family working or have sufficient funds to live (and have sickness insurance). If not they can be returned to their home country. Unfortunately the UK does not register migrants as they arrive, so we have no way of knowing how long they have been in the country. I'm not sure how that is the EUs fault?

In response to your last sentence, the EU will do whatever they need to protect their existing members. They are not going to agree to a deal with the UK that gives us all the benefits with non of the cost. We are in the weaker position here. It is why the negotiations have been so difficult and the one May has presented is pretty much as good as it can get if we want to leave (with some exceptions I'm sure). 

The problem is this deal is hard to swallow on both sides as it's almost like a "EU lite". I'm sure it will be rejected and the economy will almost certainly tank with a no deal outcome until we get things sorted. Let's just hope it isn't too long. Rees-Mogg reckons 50 years. Oh joy.


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## Dando (Nov 17, 2018)

IanM said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1063520968331730945

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Looks like heâ€™s shat himself as well


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## IanM (Nov 17, 2018)

woody69 said:



			1. I'm still interested to hear of one single EU Law that overwrites UK Law that people have a problem with. Plus, on the flip side as soon as the UK is out of the EU, we are no longer involved in the rule-writing process and thus potentially make us a less attractive location for foreign investment.
2. There is no better trade deal with the EU than we have now within the Single Market. If we want to be in the Single Market but not in the EU, i.e. Norway like deal then you have have to sacrifice a lot of things e.g. accept free movement of people. We could possibly negotiate a Canada style deal to get rid of a lot of the tariffs and get access to the Single Market without FoM, but the problem with that is it doesn't cover services, which is a rather dominant part of the UK economy. Negotiating that deal would take years and we still wouldn't have as good a deal as we have now.
3. Setting aside the absolute fact that EU immigration was beneficial to the UK economy versus non- EU immigration, which we have complete control over, that has a negative effect on the economy, whilst a member of the EU, the UK has the powers to limit EU immigration, but the government simply didn't use it. According to the EU, citizens must be self supporting after 3-months, i.e. working, a member of the family working or have sufficient funds to live (and have sickness insurance). If not they can be returned to their home country. Unfortunately the UK does not register migrants as they arrive, so we have no way of knowing how long they have been in the country. I'm not sure how that is the EUs fault?

In response to your last sentence, the EU will do whatever they need to protect their existing members. They are not going to agree to a deal with the UK that gives us all the benefits with non of the cost. We are in the weaker position here. It is why the negotiations have been so difficult and the one May has presented is pretty much as good as it can get if we want to leave (with some exceptions I'm sure).

The problem is this deal is hard to swallow on both sides as it's almost like a "EU lite". I'm sure it will be rejected and the economy will almost certainly tank with a no deal outcome until we get things sorted. Let's just hope it isn't too long. Rees-Mogg reckons 50 years. Oh joy.
		
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Not my fault if you ignore posts that state the objections.... or you live down a hole!

Also interested in your comments on Guyâ€™s version of the Nuremberg Address!


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## woody69 (Nov 17, 2018)

IanM said:



			Not my fault if you ignore posts that state the objections.... or you live down a hole!

Also interested in your comments on Guyâ€™s version of the Nuremberg Address! 

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I haven't read any posts that provide specifics, just high level objections such as "make our own laws", or "control immigration". Perhaps I missed the specifics. Would you be able to perhaps point me to them

What do you want me to say about it? Verhofstadt doesn't help his cause with a lot of his public statements? The replies to the tweet are xenophobic? Comparing Verhofstadt, a Belgian citizen to Hitler means they lose Godwins law straight away and it's probably deeply offensive to Belgians who were invaded and occupied by the Germans? Or the irony, that if the UK had remained within the EU we would have used our veto to stop any motion of an EU army being formed?


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## Dellboy (Nov 18, 2018)

Dando said:



			Looks like heâ€™s shat himself as well
		
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Talking about so called leaders who,look like they shat themselves.....


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2018)

woody69 said:



			I haven't read any posts that provide specifics, just high level objections such as "make our own laws", or "control immigration". Perhaps I missed the specifics. Would you be able to perhaps point me to them

What do you want me to say about it? Verhofstadt doesn't help his cause with a lot of his public statements? The replies to the tweet are xenophobic? Comparing Verhofstadt, a Belgian citizen to Hitler means they lose Godwins law straight away and it's probably deeply offensive to Belgians who were invaded and occupied by the Germans? Or the irony, that if the UK had remained within the EU we would have used our veto to stop any motion of an EU army being formed?
		
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The UK could use its veto to stop any motion for an EU army. In fact, UK law, as well as Irish law, clearly states that a referendum would be needed before the UK and Ireland could a support an EU army.

Sounds great. No chance of an EU army then.......... or is that really the case?

The EU foreign and security policy already exists. The EU can already call on its member states to provide armed forces for defence and peace keeping. EU armed forces, controlled by Fredrica Mogherini who is an EU High Commissioner, operates on 3 continents. Why is the EU providing a peace keeping force on 3 continents? Why isn't the UN or NATO? What conflicts are the member states being dragged into?

The member states, having agreed to a peacekeeping operation unanimously the EU High Commission, since 1999, only needs a qualified majority to extend those operations. The veto is worthless.

But why are the EU now asking for an EU army when they already have a security force? What extension to its current remit needs more central control? And if it is vetoed will it continue to extend the current Foreign and Security policy - note, "continue."

Its been said many times by many people. Countries are sleepwalking into a federal superstate.


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## bluewolf (Nov 18, 2018)

IanM said:



			Also interested in your comments on Guyâ€™s version of the Nuremberg Address! 

Click to expand...

If you're going to take single statements and use them as a basis for an opinion on an entire organisation, then here's another one. ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2018)

Aussie (ex PM) Tony Abbott:
â€œItâ€™s pretty hard for Britainâ€™s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess thatâ€™s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesnâ€™t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, itâ€™s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Letâ€™s get one thing straight: a negotiation that youâ€™re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation â€” itâ€™s surrender. Itâ€™s all give and no get.

The EUâ€™s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that thereâ€™s only one â€˜dealâ€™ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because itâ€™s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, itâ€™s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. Itâ€™s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU canâ€™t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year â€” and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the worldâ€™s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You donâ€™t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows whatâ€™s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Finally, thereâ€™s no need on Britainâ€™s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldnâ€™t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so thereâ€™s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so letâ€™s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know donâ€™t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US â€” but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? Weâ€™re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere)."


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## Fade and Die (Nov 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Aussie (ex PM) Tony Abbott:
â€œItâ€™s pretty hard for Britainâ€™s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess thatâ€™s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesnâ€™t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, itâ€™s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Letâ€™s get one thing straight: a negotiation that youâ€™re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation â€” itâ€™s surrender. Itâ€™s all give and no get.

The EUâ€™s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that thereâ€™s only one â€˜dealâ€™ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because itâ€™s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, itâ€™s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. Itâ€™s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU canâ€™t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year â€” and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the worldâ€™s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You donâ€™t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows whatâ€™s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Finally, thereâ€™s no need on Britainâ€™s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldnâ€™t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so thereâ€™s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so letâ€™s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know donâ€™t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US â€” but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? Weâ€™re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere)."
		
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Brilliant straight talking from the Aussies. Always rely on them to cut through the Bull.


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## bluewolf (Nov 18, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Brilliant straight talking from the Aussies. Always rely on them to cut through the Bull.
		
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Or to over simplify a hugely complex issue. But, if it fits your existing narrative then I accept that it sounds like sense.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 18, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Or to over simplify a hugely complex issue. But, if it fits your existing narrative then I accept that it sounds like sense.
		
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Maybe the problem so far is that we've been over complexifying a hugely simple issue. 

We leave and pay what we owe. We'd like to buy stuff from you, would you like to sell it to us? Yes, excellent then let's sort out a trade deal. You'd like to fish in our waters, OK let's negotiate that. Both sides have things that the other side wants but from the tone of the negotiations so far you'd think we have nothing to offer.


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2018)

The paying what we owe or walking away without paying needs careful scrutiny.

The EU have agreed to repay all outstanding loans the UK have made. They've agreed to repay all monies lodged in the ECB. They've agreed to pay the UK's portion of the value of EU assets, based on the % paid by the UK towards those assets. The Â£39bn that some people bump their gums about isn't really Â£39bn after the EU has paid their dues back to the UK.

As has been said earlier in the thread, there's a lot of good in deal offered.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2018)

It always good to hear an independent disconnected person to offer up a view.
But what actually is the state of economy currently and projected? What is feeding it, what is required to feed it?
Answer those questions, and the answer to UKâ€™s state and links will indicate where the European relationship stands. 
I have not seen any of this.. just heard a lot of bravado and no substance.. so come on meet the challenge answer the questions then we can make a decision.
Itâ€™s crazy, common policy in this country is make a decision, but problem solving requires a number of processes and considering all affected aspects. These are both the same thing and the process should be common.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 18, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Or to over simplify a hugely complex issue. But, if it fits your existing narrative then I accept that it sounds like sense.
		
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Sounds like sense to me. ðŸ˜
If your narrative is to make it as complex and difficult as possible to leave then it probably wouldnâ€™t.


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## bluewolf (Nov 18, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Sounds like sense to me. ðŸ˜
If your narrative is to make it as complex and difficult as possible to leave then it probably wouldnâ€™t.
		
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Thankfully, I have no control over it ðŸ˜‰

I am amused by some of the rhetoric though. It seems that people would prefer to believe that there's some huge Political conspiracy involving the entirety of the Civil Service and large sections of the media, rather than accept that "it's a bit more complicated than we thought it would be" ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Nov 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Aussie (ex PM) Tony Abbott:
â€œItâ€™s pretty hard for Britainâ€™s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess thatâ€™s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesnâ€™t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, itâ€™s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Letâ€™s get one thing straight: a negotiation that youâ€™re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation â€” itâ€™s surrender. Itâ€™s all give and no get.

The EUâ€™s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that thereâ€™s only one â€˜dealâ€™ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because itâ€™s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, itâ€™s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. Itâ€™s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU canâ€™t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year â€” and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the worldâ€™s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You donâ€™t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows whatâ€™s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Finally, thereâ€™s no need on Britainâ€™s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldnâ€™t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so thereâ€™s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so letâ€™s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know donâ€™t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US â€” but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? Weâ€™re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere)."
		
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There's a lot of things I disagree with Abbott about, but he certainly has a 'simple and direct' approach to 'solving problems'!

There's a lot in the above that rings true - or, at least, seems reasonable. However Abbott over-simplifies the Irish border issue and makes a very large assumption about 'Europe's' reaction! It MAY be the/a best approach, but it's purely an opinion, worth little more than anyone else's! 

I'd really like to see a list of the effects of a 'hard-Brexit'! The UK Civil Service must have at least drawn up a list of them, even just as a starting point! I'm pretty sure that a comparison of those effects against those of the deal that has been 'negotiated' (I'd actually suggest 'imposed'!) would convince many of the 'marginal' Remainers that a 'hard-Brexit' was a better choice! I've certainly moved towards 'Leave' - and not just from my attitude to referendum results!


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Thankfully, I have no control over it ðŸ˜‰

I am amused by some of the rhetoric though. It seems that people would prefer to believe that there's some huge Political conspiracy involving the entirety of the Civil Service and large sections of the media, rather than accept that "it's a bit more complicated than we thought it would be" ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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I don't think there's been any conspiracy. However, lets say you have a firm belief in something being good for the country. And lets say you were put in charge of doing what you think is bad for the country. Would you be able to make decisions on what is the best course of action without either consciously or subconsciously favouring a halfway house at least? It isn't a black and white answer, unless it was trigger Article 50 and leave without a deal. As soon as it became about negotiating something it became about opinions.

I don't know the definitive answer to the above but I'll admit to being sceptical that a Remain PM, ably supported by Ollie Robbins, will be totally unbiased in their views about what is a good deal and what isn't.

The media; we'd hope for unbiased reporting, and certainly expect it from the likes of the Beeb. There's reporting the news, and then there's editorialising the news with opinions. And if those opinions, like those of May and Robbins, are made by firm Remainers just what will those opinions sound like, even the intonations? And if you then add in emotive language... "crash out," and "cliff edge." Does the media know that it will "crash out," or is it "leave without a deal?"

I think that the media are used to sensationalising the news, and often live by using emotive language. Have they done it on purpose? No I don't think they have. But by doing as they have they have coloured their reporting.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Thankfully, I have no control over it ðŸ˜‰

I am amused by some of the rhetoric though. It seems that people would prefer to believe that there's some huge Political conspiracy involving the entirety of the Civil Service and large sections of the media, rather than accept that "it's a bit more complicated than we thought it would be" ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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When does a political bias become a conspiracy?


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## Foxholer (Nov 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			...
The media; *we'd hope for unbiased reporting*, and certainly expect it from the likes of the Beeb. There's reporting the news, and then there's editorialising the news with opinions. And if those opinions, like those of May and Robbins, are made by firm Remainers just what will those opinions sound like, even the intonations? And if you then add in emotive language... "crash out," and "cliff edge." Does the media know that it will "crash out," or is it "leave without a deal?"

I think that the media are used to sensationalising the news, and often live by using emotive language. Have they done it on purpose? No I don't think they have. But by doing as they have they have coloured their reporting.
		
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Why would you expect unbiased reporting from the media? In all cases - except the Beeb - theres no requirement, nor expectation to be unbiased! In fact, there's an expectation that reporting would be significantly biased toward the editorial/owner attitude! The BBC, as part of its charter, is 'committed to impartiality'. I'm inclined to believe that its approach is seen as (often unfairly imo) 'too far to the Left' by many - an attitude formed, imo, from its requirement to challenge whoever who has in power, which has, for the most part, been the Conservatives! 

To me, the struggles of The Independent indicate the 'lack of interest' in unbiased news compared to 'confirmation and consolidation' of individual attitudes!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2018)

And that unbiased source of news - the Sunday Mail (never as shockingly biased as it'd weekday stablemate - the Mail - though even the Mail seems to be moving position now that Dacre has gone) has a pretty excoriating whole page leader on those wishing to get rid of May; vote down May's Agreement and go for _No Deal_ chaotic crash out.

And without mentioning any of the ERG, Rees-Mogg, Johnson, McVey etc by name - it concludes _'_

_They must back the Prime Minister.  It is the only responsible course.  If they do not take it, they will never be forgiven for the chaos they unleash'_

This in today's Sunday Mail.

I have no doubt that there will be many continuing their denial - claiming that the Sunday Mail is wrong - it was always a Remainer newspaper.  That another better deal is possible - and that if the EU refuse to budge that a _No Deal_ will be just fine and the talk of chaos is Project Fear.

Meanwhile the silence of Johnson is deafening as he schemes behind behind the back of May.  What a snake.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2018)

And of course - one of the most beautiful ironies of this whole shambolic mess is that Hard-line Leavers should be apologising to Gina Miller for the abuse that she has suffered from many in the Leave camp over the last two years - and that abuse and vitriol extended to this forum.

Because without the effort and interventions of Gina Miller it is more than likely that the May Agreement will be being signed without ANY vote in parliament.  Hard-Brexit supporters in particular, and Leave supporters as a whole, should be thanking Gina Miller for insisting that parliament had a vote on the eventual agreement.  And so they should admit she was right and offer full apologies to her.

But I doubt they will.

It is not so much that the Leave ring-leaders are blinkered over the negative impacts of leaving the EU.  Indeed they are probably fully aware of these things.  No - the ring-leaders are so utterly and ideologically wedded to an absolutist version of leaving the EU that they will never apologise for anything that might go wrong - because that might dent the belief of those who have followed their every word for years and through this debacle; because for them any wrong or difficulty - no matter how serious or damaging - is worth suffering.  They will claim that all such talk is Project Fear - and leaving on such as WTO rules etc will be fine - they will say this whether they believe it or not - because that is what they want the Leave constituency to believe.  And such has been the corrosive nature of the right wing reporting of the EU over three decades they will succeed.  But for their ends the British public well-being and economy would become the sacrificial lamb on their self-obsessed alter of delusion.

In _The Scotsman _Friday

Robert Harris â€“ author of the great counter-factual novel Fatherland, among many others â€“ tweeted that _â€œno group of politicians has done more damage to this country than the 50 or so hardline Tory Brexiteers. They have infected the UK with their poison, concealed their real aims, evaded all responsibility, and now knife their own leader for failing to deliver their fantasy.â€ _


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And of course - one of the most beautiful ironies of this whole shambolic mess is that Hard-line Leavers should be apologising to Gina Miller for the abuse that she has suffered from many in the Leave camp over the last two years - and that abuse and vitriol extended to this forum.

Because without the effort and interventions of Gina Miller it is more than likely that the May Agreement will be being signed without ANY vote in parliament.  Hard-Brexit supporters in particular, and Leave supporters as a whole, should be thanking Gina Miller for insisting that parliament had a vote on the eventual agreement.  And so they should admit she was right and offer full apologies to her.

But I doubt they will.

It is not so much that the Leave ring-leaders are blinkered over the negative impacts of leaving the EU.  Indeed they are probably fully aware of these things.  No - the ring-leaders are so utterly and ideologically wedded to an absolutist version of leaving the EU that they will never apologise for anything that might go wrong - because that might dent the belief of those who have followed their every word for years and through this debacle; because for them any wrong or difficulty - no matter how serious or damaging - is worth suffering.  They will claim that all such talk is Project Fear - and leaving on such as WTO rules etc will be fine - they will say this whether they believe it or not - because that is what they want the Leave constituency to believe.  And such has been the corrosive nature of the right wing reporting of the EU over three decades they will succeed.  But for their ends the British public well-being and economy would become the sacrificial lamb on their self-obsessed alter of delusion.

In _The Scotsman _Friday

Robert Harris â€“ author of the great counter-factual novel Fatherland, among many others â€“ tweeted that _â€œno group of politicians has done more damage to this country than the 50 or so hardline Tory Brexiteers. They have infected the UK with their poison, concealed their real aims, evaded all responsibility, and now knife their own leader for failing to deliver their fantasy.â€ _

Click to expand...

No they don't have to apologise. There's extremists that should have a look at themselves. And there are a *FEW* that should apologise, not many as you say. But no, no apology from the vast, vast majority of Leavers. Its politics, and politics is about opinions. Communism, Republicanism, Conservatism, Marxism etc etc etc are all held up by some as being the pinnacle of politics. Others will say those versions are an abomination.

She decided to get involved in politics, and that comes with a lot of flak. You've only got to listen to John McDonnell and some of the dire, dire things he's said you realise that most things are fair game in politics. I admire her courage, her passion and I agree with some of the things she has said but I don't agree with a lot of what she said because she is towards the far end of Remain. I wouldn't want the far end of either side at my dinner table.

Apology, from some but not many.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			No they don't have to apologise. There's extremists that should have a look at themselves. And there are a *FEW* that should apologise, not many as you say. But no, no apology from the vast, vast majority of Leavers. Its politics, and politics is about opinions. Communism, Republicanism, Conservatism, Marxism etc etc etc are all held up by some as being the pinnacle of politics. Others will say those versions are an abomination.

She decided to get involved in politics, and that comes with a lot of flak. You've only got to listen to John McDonnell and some of the dire, dire things he's said you realise that most things are fair game in politics. I admire her courage, her passion and I agree with some of the things she has said but I don't agree with a lot of what she said because she is towards the far end of Remain. I wouldn't want the far end of either side at my dinner table.

Apology, from some but not many.
		
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I am not talking about her Remain and People Vote stance - but her demand in respect of the rights of parliament. 

Any Leave voter who lambasted or abused Gina Miller for forcing the government on Art50 and the a parliamentary vote should apologise or at least feel some shame - most specifically the Leave Leaders who were so vocal in the condemnations should be forced to do so publicly.  Miller was right in her demands that parliament should have a say - for precisely the sort of reasons that find many leave voters complaining about the May Agreement demanding MPs vote against it.

Not all Leave voters abused Miller on what she did - but very many.

On the Leave Leaders

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opini...4K6n45CxyQCh-l6RxZhqerWx1r0fj0Msc7Sx4iADbtqls


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Any Leave voter who lambasted Gina Miller for forcing the government on Art50 and the a parliamentary vote should apologise must most specifically the Leave Leaders who were so vocal in the condemnations.  She was right in her demands that parliament should have a say - for precisely the sort of reasons that find many leave voters complaining about the May Agreement - not all - but very many.
		
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There's nothing wrong with being vocal in disagreeing. There's nothing wrong with being passionate in a disagreement. Being abusive is where the line is crossed. 

Also, your Robert Harris quote; there are some snake-oil salesmen in that bunch, namely Boris. But all 50? Sorry but no that is patently wrong. Some of those who oppose her deal do so because they feel it is the wrong deal for the country. They waited till it was published and had read it before opposing it.

Have you read it? There's a lot of good in it, a hell of a lot of good. It is very fair and equitable in many areas. The EU have been very honourable in those parts. But on the issue of tariffs and subsidies it is appalling and deserves to be thrown out. On the issue of the backstop and the EU's control of that, it should be thrown out. 

If there was a people's vote on the deal I would vote against it because of the above. Does that make me as bad as the 50?


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			There's a lot of things I disagree with Abbott about, but he certainly has a 'simple and direct' approach to 'solving problems'!

There's a lot in the above that rings true - or, at least, seems reasonable. However Abbott over-simplifies the Irish border issue and makes a very large assumption about 'Europe's' reaction! It MAY be the/a best approach, but it's purely an opinion, worth little more than anyone else's!

*I'd really like to see a list of the effects of a 'hard-Brexit'! *The UK Civil Service must have at least drawn up a list of them, even just as a starting point! I'm pretty sure that a comparison of those effects against those of the deal that has been 'negotiated' (I'd actually suggest 'imposed'!) would convince many of the 'marginal' Remainers that a 'hard-Brexit' was a better choice! I've certainly moved towards 'Leave' - and not just from my attitude to referendum results!
		
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As there is no definition of what entails "a hard Brexit" there is no answer and no list - Even if there was a 'list' what on earth would you (or members of the public) do with this information given that much of it would need expert interpretation so it would simply cause more confusion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2018)

drdel said:



			As there is no definition of what entails "a hard Brexit" there is no answer and no list - Even if there was a 'list' what on earth would you (or members of the public) do with this information given that much of it would need expert interpretation so it would simply cause more confusion.
		
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That would be because there is no definition of what entails Brexit...and so May goes on her Lancaster House speech and declares she is delivering Brexit.  And the Sunday Times - whilst not liking the Agreement seems to accept that it is the best that can be achieved now.


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not talking about her Remain and People Vote stance - but her demand in respect of the rights of parliament.

Any Leave voter who lambasted or abused Gina Miller for forcing the government on Art50 and the a parliamentary vote should apologise or at least feel some shame - most specifically the Leave Leaders who were so vocal in the condemnations should be forced to do so publicly.  Miller was right in her demands that parliament should have a say - for precisely the sort of reasons that find many leave voters complaining about the May Agreement demanding MPs vote against it.

Not all Leave voters abused Miller on what she did - but very many.

On the Leave Leaders

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opini...4K6n45CxyQCh-l6RxZhqerWx1r0fj0Msc7Sx4iADbtqls

Click to expand...

Miller's simply a self-promoting individual with a narrow understanding of international trade/economics.


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not talking about her Remain and People Vote stance - but her demand in respect of the rights of parliament.

Any Leave voter who lambasted or abused Gina Miller for forcing the government on Art50 and the a parliamentary vote should apologise or at least feel some shame - most specifically the Leave Leaders who were so vocal in the condemnations should be forced to do so publicly.  Miller was right in her demands that parliament should have a say - for precisely the sort of reasons that find many leave voters complaining about the May Agreement demanding MPs vote against it.

Not all Leave voters abused Miller on what she did - but very many.

On the Leave Leaders

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opini...4K6n45CxyQCh-l6RxZhqerWx1r0fj0Msc7Sx4iADbtqls

Click to expand...

Sorry to labour the point. You have now gone from "many in the Leave camp," to "most specifically the Leave Leaders," and now back to "very many." No, no and thrice no. Its this very generalising that you do that gets you the flak. Its like saying all youngster voted Remain, and all over 60's voted Leave. Generalising is lazy and ignorant.


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## Foxholer (Nov 18, 2018)

drdel said:



			...Even if there was a 'list' what on earth would you (or members of the public) do with this information given that much of it would need expert interpretation so it would simply cause more confusion.
		
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H'mm! That seems rather (actiually...VERY) condescending! I hope it was not meant to be! I would expect actual expert (and a lot of inexpert!) interpretation would actually be forthcoming once such a list was published!



drdel said:



			As there is no definition of what entails "a hard Brexit" there is no answer and no list....
		
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I would expect such a definition of 'hard-Brexit' to be made pretty early in any documentation produced!


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## Foxholer (Nov 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry to labour the point. You have now gone from "many in the Leave camp," to "most specifically the Leave Leaders," and now back to "very many." No, no and thrice no. Its this very generalising that you do that gets you the flak. Its like saying all youngster voted Remain, and all over 60's voted Leave...
		
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I don't believe SILH was actually 'generalising'! Seems to me that he was being quite specific!



Hobbit said:



			...Generalising is lazy and ignorant.
		
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That's one of the 'best' examples of 'generalising' I've seen!


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That would be because *there is no definition of what entails Brexit...*and so May goes on her Lancaster House speech and declares she is delivering Brexit.  And the Sunday Times - whilst not liking the Agreement seems to accept that it is the best that can be achieved now.
		
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I guess that means you voted without understanding what you were voting for.


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## Foxholer (Nov 18, 2018)

drdel said:



			I guess that means you voted without understanding what you were voting for.

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As, apparently in your opinion, did the entire electorate - you included!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And that unbiased source of news - the Sunday Mail (never as shockingly biased as it'd weekday stablemate - the Mail - though even the Mail seems to be moving position now that Dacre has gone) has a pretty excoriating whole page leader on those wishing to get rid of May; vote down May's Agreement and go for _No Deal_ chaotic crash out.

And without mentioning any of the ERG, Rees-Mogg, Johnson, McVey etc by name - it concludes _'_

_They must back the Prime Minister.  It is the only responsible course.  If they do not take it, they will never be forgiven for the chaos they unleash'_

This in today's Sunday Mail.

I have no doubt that there will be many continuing their denial - claiming that the Sunday Mail is wrong - it was always a Remainer newspaper.  That another better deal is possible - and that if the EU refuse to budge that a _No Deal_ will be just fine and the talk of chaos is Project Fear.

Meanwhile the silence of Johnson is deafening as he schemes behind behind the back of May.  What a snake.
		
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Your post is full of generalising aÃ§usations, very poor in my opinion.

Boris keeps quiet and you accuse him scheming behind TMs back like a snake.  Your prejudices are  not worthy of you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post is full of generalising aÃ§usations, very poor in my opinion.

Boris keeps quiet and you accuse him scheming behind TMs back like a snake.  Your prejudices are  not worthy of you.
		
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OK then - why are we not hearing from Johnson when he is rarely short of a word or two.  We heard him rant on what he thought was going to be in May's Agreement - I am not aware we have heard a word from him since.  Probably saving it up for his DT column today.

Johnson is just one of a bunch of self-serving obsessed charlatans that has led the country down the cul-de-sac we now find ourselves in. And now he says nothing. He is indeed despicable.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2018)

drdel said:



			I guess that means you voted without understanding what you were voting for.

Click to expand...

Like 99% of all voters.
That is why we need a second peoples vote.
Trouble is leavers know they have no chance of winning that.
So we blunder on into a blind Brexit.


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## USER1999 (Nov 19, 2018)

Yep, he is in the Daily Telegraph today.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 19, 2018)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/waiting-for-the-penny-to-drop/#comments

There is Ian, looking like a 'staunch' nationalist whilst making a good case for Scottish Independence.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2018)

Commentary piece in the i newspaper today by the Remain supporting Ian Birrell starting with Owen Paterson and his ilk of the hard Brexit ('No Surrender to the EU') cabale.

I just pluck out a few of his choicest and - for me - most 'bang on' observations on them. And yes - I agree with every word and the underlying and barely concealed fury and disgust that Birrell feels towards them - it is not just Leave votes who are currently angry...

_And even at this eleventh hour, they carry on with their stunts, scheming and selfish refusal to relinquish their cause despite mountainous evidence of unreality and the looming dangers of no deal._

_Former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab accuses colleagues of failing to stand up to EU bullies after flouncing out of cabinet when he failed to fix a better deal. Yet the partners from whom we are seeking divorce could not have been clearer, more consistent or more cohesive in setting out possible terms of departure â€“ for all the nonsense spouted here about retaining access to their markets on our terms._

_This deal starkly exposes the fallacies behind pledges promulgated by politicians pursuing anachronistic imperial dreams. The Brexiteers sold a vision of a richer, freer and stronger nation once we shook off the shackles of Brussels with their promises to keep out foreigners, slash red tape and salvage the health service._

_Now their land of milk and honey has turned sour as dreams strike reality. We end up with less control of destiny. We see diminished national influence, a disunited kingdom, divided citizens, distraught businesses. Yet shameless Brexiteers simply fan a fresh revolt â€“ brushing aside the dismal reality it is fuelled by their own ineptitude after serial failures in key cabinet posts._

_They do not care if they tear down a fourth Tory prime minister. They do not care about the economy, firms and jobs. They do not care if they wreck their own party. They do not care if they hand the nation to self-avowed Marxists. They care only about themselves â€“ and they will sacrifice anything on the altar of their own contemptible vanities._

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment...on-refuse-abandon-fantasy-put-country-danger/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2018)

drdel said:



			Miller's simply a self-promoting individual with a narrow understanding of international trade/economics.
		
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I think you might as well then say exactly the same for the majority of hard-line Brexit supporting MPs and the totality of the ERG.  In other words - those who convinced a small majority of the electorate that there is a land of milk and honey out there - a fragrant land of fewer immigrants with more jobs, quieter roads, higher wages, housing and schooling of choice for all.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 19, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Yep, he is in the Daily Telegraph today.
		
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I am sure all the good and honest hard working folk up north have rushed out to buy their copy so they may keep up with the utterings of Boris... NOT!


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think you might as well then say exactly the same for the majority of hard-line Brexit supporting MPs and the totality of the ERG.  In other words - those who convinced a small majority of the electorate that there is a land of milk and honey out there - a fragrant land of fewer immigrants with more jobs, quieter roads, higher wages, housing and schooling of choice for all.
		
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Whatever you may think of MP's, from all sides, they are at least elected and can be removed. Gina Miller, as has already been put so beautifully, is a self promoting individual. I avoid her as best as I can as I have no wish to stroke her ego further. Best ignored and then hopefully she will go away.


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2018)

drdel said:



			Miller's simply a self-promoting individual with a narrow understanding of international trade/economics.
		
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Who had the cahones (and funds) to take on the Government - and was proven correct! She may (or may not) be 'self-promoting' (I'm inclined to believe 'only as much as necessary'!) but neither that, nor her (lack of) expertise in international trade/economics had anything to do with seking and obtaining the ruling that she did! 

Ironically, it was all about it being Parliament's responsibiliity for (certain) changes to Law! This was also a major argument of the Leave campaign's anti-EU stance!


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## drdel (Nov 19, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			As, apparently in your opinion, did the entire electorate - you included!
		
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So now you have the  capability to know the extent of my (and everyone else's) understanding. FYI I made a decision I'm happy with.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Commentary piece in the i newspaper today by the Remain supporting Ian Birrell starting with Owen Paterson and his ilk of the hard Brexit ('No Surrender to the EU') cabale.

I just pluck out a few of his choicest and - for me - most 'bang on' observations on them. And yes - I agree with every word and the underlying and barely concealed fury and disgust that Birrell feels towards them - it is not just Leave votes who are currently angry...

_And even at this eleventh hour, they carry on with their stunts, scheming and selfish refusal to relinquish their cause despite mountainous evidence of unreality and the looming dangers of no deal._

_Former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab accuses colleagues of failing to stand up to EU bullies after flouncing out of cabinet when he failed to fix a better deal. Yet the partners from whom we are seeking divorce could not have been clearer, more consistent or more cohesive in setting out possible terms of departure â€“ for all the nonsense spouted here about retaining access to their markets on our terms._

_This deal starkly exposes the fallacies behind pledges promulgated by politicians pursuing anachronistic imperial dreams. The Brexiteers sold a vision of a richer, freer and stronger nation once we shook off the shackles of Brussels with their promises to keep out foreigners, slash red tape and salvage the health service._

_Now their land of milk and honey has turned sour as dreams strike reality. We end up with less control of destiny. We see diminished national influence, a disunited kingdom, divided citizens, distraught businesses. Yet shameless Brexiteers simply fan a fresh revolt â€“ brushing aside the dismal reality it is fuelled by their own ineptitude after serial failures in key cabinet posts._

_They do not care if they tear down a fourth Tory prime minister. They do not care about the economy, firms and jobs. They do not care if they wreck their own party. They do not care if they hand the nation to self-avowed Marxists. They care only about themselves â€“ and they will sacrifice anything on the altar of their own contemptible vanities._

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment...on-refuse-abandon-fantasy-put-country-danger/

Click to expand...



My first thought was long on emotive rhetoric and opinions but bu99er all in the way of facts.

And then oh how I laughed you do realise he acknowledges the shackles of Brussels? Priceless!!!

I do hope May is replaced. Its an appalling deal. She may not have been able to negotiate anything better, but "no deal is better than a bad deal."

*So what is "no deal?"*

First of all, no deal isn't a dead stop in the road. It is the starting point for negotiations. If the current deal is signed, there is no details on a (trade) deal anyway. There is no trade deal relating to products or services in the deal on the table now. The trade deal details is still to be negotiated. So hey ho, lets sign up to a restrictive deal now and hope the EU will agree the details of a trade deal later.

The current deal on the table restricts trade without giving anything in the way of a trade deal with the EU. If I'd taken that to my MD, i.e. a competitor restricting our ability to do deals without getting a deal off them I'd have been sacked - May needs sacking.

On the issue of just who is or was the Brexit Secretary for the last year and a bit. Its worth listening to Ress-Mogg questioning Olly Robbins in the Commons Select Committee. Very revealing. Worth a watch.


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2018)

drdel said:



			So now you have the  capability to know the extent of my (and everyone else's) understanding. FYI I made a decision I'm happy with.
		
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Absolutely not! Read my post again! 

I stated that it was YOU that (APPARENTLY) 'had that power'!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:





My first thought was long on emotive rhetoric and opinions but bu99er all in the way of facts.

And then oh how I laughed you do realise he acknowledges the shackles of Brussels? Priceless!!!

I do hope May is replaced. Its an appalling deal. She may not have been able to negotiate anything better, but "no deal is better than a bad deal."

*So what is "no deal?"*

First of all, no deal isn't a dead stop in the road. It is the starting point for negotiations. If the current deal is signed, there is no details on a (trade) deal anyway. There is no trade deal relating to products or services in the deal on the table now. The trade deal details is still to be negotiated. So hey ho, lets sign up to a restrictive deal now and hope the EU will agree the details of a trade deal later.

The current deal on the table restricts trade without giving anything in the way of a trade deal with the EU. If I'd taken that to my MD, i.e. a competitor restricting our ability to do deals without getting a deal off them I'd have been sacked - May needs sacking.

On the issue of just who is or was the Brexit Secretary for the last year and a bit. Its worth listening to Ress-Mogg questioning Olly Robbins in the Commons Select Committee. Very revealing. Worth a watch.
		
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*...long on emotive rhetoric and opinions but bu99er all in the way of facts.*

Which is of course the *totality *of the Leave campaign's view of the future of the UK - and much of it's interpretation of the UK's *current *position within the EU

Besides - Birrell is more commenting on the individuals - which is of course his opinion - and not any detail of their views of life out of the EU (though of detail these charlatans provide little in any case)

Of course he acknowledges the shackles that Brussels will (temporarily?) have on the UK in respect of customs agreement - that is why he'll hate the agreement - it so much worse than our current situation. But that is where exiting the EU is taking us.

I also like that in pointing out the 'shackles' the Agreement has us in - Birrell highlights (and Leave voters agree with him) that with May's Agreement the UK loses most of the sovereignty it currently has in the context of the EU - that being the sovereignty that Leave tell us that the UK had already lost for being in the EU and that by leaving we will be regaining.  Somehow we seem to have miraculously regained sovereignty without having yet left the EU - to foolishly lose it again under May's Agreement.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2018)

drdel said:



			I guess that means you voted without understanding what you were voting for.

Click to expand...

I voted to stay in the EU based upon what I knew - because what (little or much) I know about the EU it does seem to have worked well enough for the UK over the last 40yrs given the success of our economy.  And in my experience it is always better to be in the tent making something better, than outside of it in the trying trying to invent something new to keep us dry and influence those in the tent from whom you are quite separate and have no visibility of what they are doing.

And I looked at the completely undefined alternative to remaining, with all the associated risks and likely issues from extracting ourselves from a 40yr very close relationship within the EU to which few answers other than harking back to an apparent golden age of the 50s, 60s and 70s.  And I thought - really???  the UK in severe austerity post WWII and before the internet and the global economy is what I am pointed at as a vision of the future?

I then also looked at the characters selling Leave to me - and if I _had _had any doubts then that would have clinched it for me.

And still these same Brextremists continue to sell us their wares - despite the mountain of evidence that suggests that just about everything they sell is a mirage - a mere figment of their imagination.  And 'just about' - because if or when we leave the EU there will be at least one thing that will be certain - we will be out of the EU - with no representation or influence.

There is of course one other thing that we can be certain about at the moment

There is no limit to the practical, economic and psychological damage the hard-line eurosceptic Brexiteers are prepared to inflict on the rest of us in the pursuit of their delusions or their demented desire for power (JR - NYT)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/...BdaIXLZqmqZLZ7DivfQwkM1DrQPtSStshLRc4Z9ii_BUM


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*...long on emotive rhetoric and opinions but bu99er all in the way of facts.*

Which is of course the *totality *of the Leave campaign's view of the future of the UK - and much of it's interpretation of the UK's *current *position within the EU

Besides - Birrell is more commenting on the individuals - which is of course his opinion - and not any detail of their views of life out of the EU (though of detail these charlatans provide little in any case)

Of course he acknowledges the shackles that Brussels will (temporarily?) have on the UK in respect of customs agreement - that is why he'll hate the agreement - it so much worse than our current situation. But that is where exiting the EU is taking us.

I also like that in pointing out the 'shackles' the Agreement has us in - Birrell highlights (and Leave voters agree with him) that with May's Agreement the UK loses most of the sovereignty it currently has in the context of the EU - that being the sovereignty that Leave tell us that the UK had already lost for being in the EU and that by leaving we will be regaining.  Somehow we seem to have miraculously regained sovereignty without having yet left the EU - to foolishly lose it again under May's Agreement.
		
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Do you read what you post? Did you read Birrell's article? I suggest you read it again, slowly and carefully. The shackles he talks about are those that are already in place BEFORE any deal is signed. Or were you deliberately twisting it to hide the fact you didn't understand it first time round.

And you're right, the agreement will see us as a vassal state. Tied to regulations that we had no say in making, and can't get out of short of breaking laws. In effect, the Brexiteers are right to kick off about the agreement. It needs tweaking, if the EU will, or it needs ditching.

Roll on no deal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Do you read what you post? Did you read Birrell's article? I suggest you read it again, slowly and carefully. The shackles he talks about are those that are already in place BEFORE any deal is signed. Or were you deliberately twisting it to hide the fact you didn't understand it first time round.

And you're right, the agreement will see us as a vassal state. Tied to regulations that we had no say in making, and can't get out of short of breaking laws. In effect, the Brexiteers are right to kick off about the agreement. It needs tweaking, if the EU will, or it needs ditching.

Roll on no deal.
		
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I will take you advice and re-read

However it is not only Brexiteers think the Withdrawal Agreement is pants.  It is just that Remain voters were told it would *have *to be pants, and believed what they were told.  All Leave voters heard the same words and many believed what that were told - that it was Project Fear; that the EU and the German car industry needed the UK more than the other way around - and so we would get a good deal; that the UK held all the best cards.

And so it came to pass.

BTW - some vassals had a lot of power, influence and flexibility (feudal Lords for example) - only it is power with allegiance, commitments and responsibilities.  No matter - many it's seems would rather have the UK subservient to the WTO (over which we have little or no influence) and a vassal state of the USA - God help us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Do you read what you post? Did you read Birrell's article? I suggest you read it again, slowly and carefully. The shackles he talks about are those that are already in place BEFORE any deal is signed. Or were you deliberately twisting it to hide the fact you didn't understand it first time round.
		
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Is it the following extract that you point me to?

_Their ostrich-like behaviour baffles those on other side of the negotiating table. â€œItâ€™s horrendous to see politicians so openly fighting for power without taking ordinary peopleâ€™s lives into account or presenting an alternative,â€ said one European diplomat, adding that â€œpeople and politicians in the UK cannot grasp they are not an equal partner to the EU27 but a supplicant.â€ _

_Sadly, this is true. Yes, Mayâ€™s Brexit deal is pitiful, worse on every level than existing arrangements as privately admitted inside Downing Street. Britain goes from having the best arrangement in Europe â€“ with influence, a decent rebate and no euro â€“ to becoming a supine rule-taker to access vital markets._

Because what Birrell is, I think commenting upon here is the relative strengths and positions of the UK and the EU in the *negotiations *- and nothing to do with our position within the EU as it is today (he comments on that when he says - _Britain goes from having the best arrangement in Europe â€“ with influence, a decent rebate and no euro )_

The Brexit-favouring politicians and many Leave voters seem to think that the UK is, at least, an equal with the EU in the negotiations - when in fact that is not the case.  The UK is leaving the EU and would like to retain many of the benefits of being a member.  It is in this aspect of the negotiation that the UK has little to offer the EU.  The relationship in respect of EU membership benefits is surely that the EU is the *benefactor *with the UK being the *supplicant *in seeking some of the benefits of membership.  It is entirely up to the EU whether or not it grants any such benefits to the UK.

So what Birrell is reflecting upon is the view expressed by European diplomats about the negotiations - that sadly - _people and politicians in the UK cannot grasp they are not an equal partner to the EU27 but a supplicant._

Anyhow - that's how I read it.


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## drdel (Nov 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Do you read what you post? Did you read Birrell's article? I suggest you read it again, slowly and carefully. The shackles he talks about are those that are already in place BEFORE any deal is signed. Or were you deliberately twisting it to hide the fact you didn't understand it first time round.

And you're right, the agreement will see us as a vassal state. Tied to regulations that we had no say in making, and can't get out of short of breaking laws. In effect, the Brexiteers are right to kick off about the agreement. It needs tweaking, if the EU will, or it needs ditching.

*Roll on no deal*.
		
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Totally agree, the sooner the better.

It has been obvious that Barnier has never had the authority/option to agree and  'give way' - unelected, he represents 27 nations whose elected Heads are not coherent and do not themselves  agree on strategic issues. T'was always going to be a zero sum game.

As a consequence the negotiations were never going to be about give and take but simply about the EU standing still or demanding voting be re-run: as, historically, it has always done when faced with difficulties e.g. Ireland, Greece, Italy etc.

Art 50 triggered the UK leaving the 28 member group next year. It was/is crass to think that it is possible to set out closure mechanisms without simultaneously setting out the future. Barnier was either stupid to make the demand or he intentionally set out to block any negotiation because he knew he could not 'trade' without loosing face and opening himself to criticism. His safest strategy was always to simply say 'no' to anything and everything: thereby keeping Germany and France happy. The interests of the rest of the EU are of little interest to him.

The UK was daft to allow the intrinsically flawed process to proceed when it was structurally doomed to fail.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2018)

drdel said:



			Totally agree, the sooner the better.

It has been obvious that Barnier has never had the authority/option to agree and  'give way' - unelected, he represents 27 nations whose elected Heads are not coherent and do not themselves  agree on strategic issues. T'was always going to be a zero sum game.

As a consequence the negotiations were never going to be about give and take but simply about the EU standing still or demanding voting be re-run: as, historically, it has always done when faced with difficulties e.g. Ireland, Greece, Italy etc.

Art 50 triggered the UK leaving the 28 member group next year. It was/is crass to think that it is possible to set out closure mechanisms without simultaneously setting out the future. Barnier was either stupid to make the demand or he intentionally set out to block any negotiation because he knew he could not 'trade' without loosing face and opening himself to criticism. His safest strategy was always to simply say 'no' to anything and everything: thereby keeping Germany and France happy. The interests of the rest of the EU are of little interest to him.

The UK was daft to allow the intrinsically flawed process to proceed when it was structurally doomed to fail.
		
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I am not so sure @Hobbit was actually suggesting that No Deal would be a good thing.  But it is reassuring to read that some continue to believe that setting the country back for decades (see Jacob Rees-Mogg - we might not see the benefit for 50yrs), in the meantime hurting the poorest in this country is a price worth paying to leave the EU

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-economy-brexit_uk_5b54e3b5e4b0de86f48e3566) 

Indeed we know now that the actual benefits of leaving do not seem to be quantifiable by any economists other than such as Patrick Minford.  But let's not forget what Minford says about how the UK could benefit in a new world out of the EU

_Minfordâ€™s policy recommendation is that following a vote for Brexit, the UK should not bother striking new trade deals but instead unilaterally abolish all its import tariffs (letâ€™s call this policy â€˜Britain Aloneâ€™). The UK would simply pay the tariffs imposed by other countries on UK exports. This is usually the worst-case scenario that other economists have examined.

This would be a pretty hard sell to UK citizens. Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the â€˜eliminationâ€™ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality. But although he is relaxed about these outcomes, we suspect that voters in Port Talbot and elsewhere in Britain wouldnâ€™t be so impressed._

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandp...onomists-for-brexit-defy-the-laws-of-gravity/

Excellent.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is it the following extract that you point me to?

_Their ostrich-like behaviour baffles those on other side of the negotiating table. â€œItâ€™s horrendous to see politicians so openly fighting for power without taking ordinary peopleâ€™s lives into account or presenting an alternative,â€ said one European diplomat, adding that â€œpeople and politicians in the UK cannot grasp they are not an equal partner to the EU27 but a supplicant.â€ _

_Sadly, this is true. Yes, Mayâ€™s Brexit deal is pitiful, worse on every level than existing arrangements as privately admitted inside Downing Street. Britain goes from having the best arrangement in Europe â€“ with influence, a decent rebate and no euro â€“ to becoming a supine rule-taker to access vital markets._

Because what Birrell is, I think commenting upon here is the relative strengths and positions of the UK and the EU in the *negotiations *- and nothing to do with our position within the EU as it is today.  

The Brexit-favouring politicians and many Leave voters seem to think that the UK is, at least, an equal with the EU in the negotiations - when in fact that is not the case.  The UK is leaving the EU and would like to retain many of the benefits of being a member.  It is in this negotiation that the UK has little to offer the EU.  The relationship in respect of EU membership benefits is surely that the EU is the *benefactor *with the UK being the *supplicant *in seeking some of the benefits of membership.  It is entirely up to the EU whether or not it grants any such benefits to the UK.

So what Birrell is reflecting upon is the view expressed by European diplomats about the negotiations - that sadly - _people and politicians in the UK cannot grasp they are not an equal partner to the EU27 but a supplicant._

Anyhow - that's how I read it.
		
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No, it was in the first piece of his you posted up, which I quoted back. He talks about shackles that are already in place. My point was he talks about being shackled to Brussels now, which just seems ironic from someone who clearly supports being in there.

As to the above, and his assumption that the UK have nothing to offer in the negotiations. To be honest, I think he is blind, or blinkered or being deliberately obtuse in ignoring what the EU is keen to keep. For example, Spain wants continued access to UK waters for fishing. As an overall number, Â£500m, it isn't a huge amount in terms of Spain's GDP. But its very regional, obviously, when it comes to fishing. That Â£500m is almost exclusively 'earned' by the northern fishing ports, e.g. Bilbao. To take Â£500m out of an economy in a relatively small area would really hurt - the NE of England, Middlesbrough had over 70,000 people employed by British Steel and ICI, and now have less than 4,000 and a bigger population. Losing that income in a small area has devastated the area.

Imagine the EU funding that would be needed, from a take that has been reduced by Â£9bn, to support lots of local areas that have lost business. There's no winners in Brexit, and I contest that Birrell is talking through is whatsits if he thinks the UK has nothing to offer in the negotiations.

EDIT: I wasn't saying no deal is a good thing. I was saying its better than the deal on offer. The deal on offer is so bad I'd be tempted to say May has been offered a bung. No one in their right mind would be happy to put that forward as a solution.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2018)

We would be stupid to CRASH into this deal, we would be falling off a cliff edge into EU domination. Rather than accept this bad deal we should take the option of a good deal where we would be free to forge our own way in the world and break free from our EU shakles.  There would be a silver lining for the EU, we would allow them to enter a free trade agreement with us so their ecconomies would not suffer too much.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			No, it was in the first piece of his you posted up, which I quoted back. He talks about shackles that are already in place. My point was he talks about being shackled to Brussels now, which just seems ironic from someone who clearly supports being in there.

As to the above, and his assumption that the UK have nothing to offer in the negotiations. To be honest, I think he is blind, or blinkered or being deliberately obtuse in ignoring what the EU is keen to keep. For example, Spain wants continued access to UK waters for fishing. As an overall number, Â£500m, it isn't a huge amount in terms of Spain's GDP. But its very regional, obviously, when it comes to fishing. That Â£500m is almost exclusively 'earned' by the northern fishing ports, e.g. Bilbao. To take Â£500m out of an economy in a relatively small area would really hurt - the NE of England, Middlesbrough had over 70,000 people employed by British Steel and ICI, and now have less than 4,000 and a bigger population. Losing that income in a small area has devastated the area.

Imagine the EU funding that would be needed, from a take that has been reduced by Â£9bn, to support lots of local areas that have lost business. There's no winners in Brexit, and I contest that Birrell is talking through is whatsits if he thinks the UK has nothing to offer in the negotiations.

EDIT: I* wasn't saying no deal is a good thing. I was saying its better than the deal on offer. *The deal on offer is so bad I'd be tempted to say May has been offered a bung. No one in their right mind would be happy to put that forward as a solution.
		
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The biggest issue I have with the Withdrawal Agreement being worse than not having one, is that it seems to me that the fears (what an irony that is) that Hard-Brexiters are shouting about relate to the customs alignment required until a solution to manage the NI/EU border is defined and implemented.

And this confuses me as we have been told endlessly by Leave Leaders - and continue to hear same - that the NI/EU border issue is a confected issue - it is not real - that a solution exists today.  *If that is true then the solution will be implemented during the transition period.* And even were it not then a plan and timescales for implementing it would be known and timescales associated with the backstop would at that point be defined.  Once implemented why then would the EU wish to keep the UK tied in to a customs alignment?


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## bluewolf (Nov 19, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			We would be stupid to CRASH into this deal, we would be falling off a cliff edge into EU domination. Rather than accept this bad deal we should take the option of a good deal where we would be free to forge our own way in the world and break free from our EU shakles.  There would be a silver lining for the EU, we would allow them to enter a free trade agreement with us so their ecconomies would not suffer too much.
		
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LOL, I see what you did there....ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			We would be stupid to CRASH into this deal, we would be falling off a cliff edge into EU domination. Rather than accept this bad deal *we should take the option of a good deal* where we would be free to forge our own way in the world and break free from our EU shakles.  There would be a silver lining for the EU, we would allow them to enter a free trade agreement with us so their ecconomies would not suffer too much.
		
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Except there is no 'good deal' on offer/available!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Except there is no 'good deal' on offer/available!
		
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It's not on offer, it's in our pocket.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 19, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not on offer, it's in our pocket.
		
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How do you know itâ€™s a â€œgood dealâ€


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## bluewolf (Nov 19, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How do you know itâ€™s a â€œgood dealâ€
		
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He doesn't. SR wants the "No Deal" option.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The biggest issue I have with the Withdrawal Agreement being worse than not having one, is that it seems to me that the fears (what an irony that is) that Hard-Brexiters are shouting about relate to the customs alignment required until a solution to manage the NI/EU border is defined and implemented.

And this confuses me as we have been told endlessly by Leave Leaders - and continue to hear same - that the NI/EU border issue is a confected issue - it is not real - that a solution exists today.  *If that is true then the solution will be implemented during the transition period.* And even were it not then a plan and timescales for implementing it would be known and timescales associated with the backstop would at that point be defined.  Once implemented why then would the EU wish to keep the UK tied in to a customs alignment?
		
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To deal with your first paragraph; you are happy to have the EU set our tariffs ad infinitum? Perhaps I shouldn't have put the question mark there. Your are happy for the EU to control an independent body that sets our agricultural policy and subsidies? Have you bothered to read the agreement yet, or are you going on sound bites from politicians and business leaders with a vested interest?

Second paragraph; I, and others, have told you on numerous occasions that technical solutions are already available and are already in use throughout the EU. I also told you of a BBC piece about how goods enter Estonia, the EU, from Russia, non-EU, using a technical solution at the border. And now you question whether or not it is true. That is deeply insulting. Why would I lie? Of course its bloody true.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 19, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			He doesn't. SR wants the "No Deal" option.
		
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Yep but he calls it â€œa good dealâ€ so interesting to know how he knows itâ€™s a good deal


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How do you know itâ€™s a â€œgood dealâ€
		
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I know the current one on offer is a stinker


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep but he calls it â€œa good dealâ€ so interesting to know how he knows itâ€™s a good deal
		
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I explained that


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2018)

There is no such thing as a No Deal.  The deal would be leaving the EU just like voters wanted.  Trading arrangements would start under WTO just like so many countries in the World, there would probably emerge a trade agreement with the EU as it would be very much in their best interests.  The UK could drop tariffs and get some more favourable trading arrangements around the world. It would take some adjustment and no doubt a degree of discomfort but kicking any bad habit brings some of that, the benefit is you become healthier, fitter and in better shape afterwards. Let's start manufacturing more, growing more, creating more worthwhile jobs and also ones that give a future to the less gifted in our country, working is a great theropy for a better life.  It isn't all gloom and doom out there


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## bluewolf (Nov 19, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I know the current one on offer is a stinker
		
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So you don't know that it's a good deal. You think that it's better than the one on offer. They might both be terrible deals. They might be the worst 2 deals in the history of the World. Who knows? Let's push the button and ride the Brexit rollercoaster ðŸ˜‚


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 19, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			There is no such thing as a No Deal.  The deal would be leaving the EU just like voters wanted.  Trading arrangements would start under WTO just like so many countries in the World, there would probably emerge a trade agreement with the EU as it would be very much in their best interests.  The UK could drop tariffs and get some more favourable trading arrangements around the world. It would take some adjustment and no doubt a degree of discomfort but kicking any bad habit brings some of that, the benefit is you become healthier, fitter and in better shape afterwards. Let's start manufacturing more, growing more, creating more worthwhile jobs and also ones that give a future to the less gifted in our country, working is a great theropy for a better life.  It isn't all gloom and doom out there
		
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You make it sound so easy - but letâ€™s be blunt you donâ€™t know if itâ€™s going to work like that , your statements have a few â€œcouldsâ€ - â€œprobablysâ€ and you certainly canâ€™t say â€œwouldâ€ as if itâ€™s a given. 

And how do you know the â€œbenefitsâ€ will be better after a â€œno dealâ€ 

And all these â€œmanufacturer this and thatâ€ â€œ grow this â€œ - thatâ€™s just words at the end of the day and saying it is easy. What exactly is it you think we will â€œmanufactureâ€ or grow etc 

And that â€œdegree of discomfortâ€ could well mean thousand maybe more losing jobs , companies going under , thousands looking for benefits - maybe itâ€™s a damn sight more than a â€œdegree of discomfortâ€ for a lot of people.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			So you don't know that it's a good deal. You think that it's better than the one on offer. They might both be terrible deals. They might be the worst 2 deals in the history of the World. Who knows? Let's push the button and ride the Brexit rollercoaster ðŸ˜‚
		
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Riding the Bear always turns out badly.


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## drdel (Nov 19, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You make it sound so easy - but letâ€™s be blunt you donâ€™t know if itâ€™s going to work like that , your statements have a few â€œcouldsâ€ - â€œprobablysâ€ and you certainly canâ€™t say â€œwouldâ€ as if itâ€™s a given.

And how do you know the â€œbenefitsâ€ will be better after a â€œno dealâ€

And all these â€œmanufacturer this and thatâ€ â€œ grow this â€œ - thatâ€™s just words at the end of the day and saying it is easy. What exactly is it you think we will â€œmanufactureâ€ or grow etc

And that â€œdegree of discomfortâ€ could well mean thousand maybe more losing jobs , companies going under , thousands looking for benefits - maybe itâ€™s a damn sight more than a â€œdegree of discomfortâ€ for a lot of people.
		
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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You make it sound so easy - but letâ€™s be blunt you donâ€™t know if itâ€™s going to work like that , your statements have a few â€œcouldsâ€ - â€œprobablysâ€ and you certainly canâ€™t say â€œwouldâ€ as if itâ€™s a given.

And how do you know the â€œbenefitsâ€ will be better after a â€œno dealâ€

And all these â€œmanufacturer this and thatâ€ â€œ grow this â€œ - thatâ€™s just words at the end of the day and saying it is easy. What exactly is it you think we will â€œmanufactureâ€ or grow etc

And that â€œdegree of discomfortâ€ could well mean thousand maybe more losing jobs , companies going under , thousands looking for benefits - maybe itâ€™s a damn sight more than a â€œdegree of discomfortâ€ for a lot of people.
		
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Maybe you're right maybe I am, that's what decision making is about, you take into account your Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats then balance them against each other..  If you are not prepared to take considered risks and forge opportunities but rather wallow in a security blanket that gradually saps your strength and spirit then that's not for me.  

You really do dwell on the negative, I would guess you've never ran a business or employed people, never had to make a decision that could either ruin you or become a cash cow.

What could we manufacture?  If you need me to answer that for you then you really are lacking in vision.   Is it better to import a pair of socks from China and sell for Â£1 while keeping a person out of work or get them to make the socks and sell them for Â£2 and keep that person in work.


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## drdel (Nov 19, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You make it sound so easy - but letâ€™s be blunt you donâ€™t know if itâ€™s going to work like that , your statements have a few â€œcouldsâ€ - â€œprobablysâ€ and you certainly canâ€™t say â€œwouldâ€ as if itâ€™s a given.

And how do you know the â€œbenefitsâ€ will be better after a â€œno dealâ€

And all these â€œmanufacturer this and thatâ€ â€œ grow this â€œ - thatâ€™s just words at the end of the day and saying it is easy. What exactly is it you think we will â€œmanufactureâ€ or grow etc

And that â€œdegree of discomfortâ€ could well *mean thousand maybe more losing jobs , companies going under , thousands looking for benefits* - maybe itâ€™s a damn sight more than a â€œdegree of discomfortâ€ for a lot of people.
		
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In fact pretty much what has happened over the decades as the EU has failed to keep pace with RoW who help their industry. The nature of subsidies has distorted the internal market so that it means the main country to have benefitted is Germany as the grants/subsidised southern member spend their ECB loans. Having taken their eye off the ball it means a major re-adjustment is needed because too many members are net takers out of a shrinking pot.


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## Old Skier (Nov 19, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Any Leave voter who lambasted or abused Gina Miller for forcing the government on Art50 and the a parliamentary vote should apologise or at least feel some shame
		
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A bit two faced from someone who spends his days insulting the likes of Mogg, Johnson, Trump and many other politicians that you don't agree with. The normal balance from you again.


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## bluewolf (Nov 19, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			A bit two faced from someone who spends his days insulting the likes of Mogg, Johnson, Trump and many other politicians that you don't agree with. The normal balance from you again.
		
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To be fair, although Hogie has been critical (and occasionally a touch insulting), he hasn't got within a 1000 light years of some of the abuse Miller received/receives. And, she was proven right.


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## Old Skier (Nov 19, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			To be fair, although Hogie has been critical (and occasionally a touch insulting), he hasn't got within a 1000 light years of some of the abuse Miller received/receives. And, she was proven right.
		
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I'm not sure that posters on the forum have been as insulting to Miller but it's all a matter of opinion.


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## Hobbit (Nov 19, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			To be fair, although Hogie has been critical (and occasionally a touch insulting), he hasn't got within a 1000 light years of some of the abuse Miller received/receives. And, she was proven right.
		
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She did what the Labour Party didn't do. She held the government accountable. It shouldn't have needed a court case.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 20, 2018)

And as if Brexit could not get any more fractious the 13 Scottish Tory Westminster MP's have now split into three political groups.


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			There is no such thing as a No Deal.  The deal would be leaving the EU just like voters wanted...
		
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Er..That - falling back to WTO Trading arrangements and the minimum set of ties to the EU - i's what (I believe) everybody means by 'No Deal'! Of course there's still the 'divorce settlement' of committed funding of agreed projects, salaries/pensions and likely a few other items to negotiate. But Article 50 certainly allows for a 'No Deal' situation!


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			She did what the Labour Party didn't do. She held the government accountable. It shouldn't have needed a court case.
		
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Correction....

She did what the Labour Party was *unable* to do within Parliament. She held the government accountable by the only means available.

It shouldn't have needed a *Supreme Court Appeal!*


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Do you read what you post? Did you read Birrell's article? I suggest you read it again, slowly and carefully. The shackles he talks about are those that are already in place BEFORE any deal is signed. Or were you deliberately twisting it to hide the fact you didn't understand it first time round.

And you're right, the agreement will see us as a vassal state. Tied to regulations that we had no say in making, and can't get out of short of breaking laws. In effect, the Brexiteers are right to kick off about the agreement. It needs tweaking, if the EU will, or it needs ditching.

Roll on no deal.
		
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Ah - I see where Birrell talks of 'shackles'...

_The Brexiteers sold a vision of a richer, freer and stronger nation once we shook off the shackles of Brussels with their promises to keep out foreigners, slash red tape and salvage the health service_

...though I read this as how the Brexiteers see being in the EU as being 'shackled' - it is not, I think, how Birrell sees it - as he says a little earlier in his article 

_Britain goes from having the best arrangement in Europe â€“ with influence, a decent rebate and no euro â€“ to becoming a supine rule-taker to access vital markets._

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment...on-refuse-abandon-fantasy-put-country-danger/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			To deal with your first paragraph; you are happy to have the EU set our tariffs ad infinitum? Perhaps I shouldn't have put the question mark there. Your are happy for the EU to control an independent body that sets our agricultural policy and subsidies? Have you bothered to read the agreement yet, or are you going on sound bites from politicians and business leaders with a vested interest?

*Second paragraph; I, and others, have told you on numerous occasions that technical solutions are already available and are already in use throughout the EU. I also told you of a BBC piece about how goods enter Estonia, the EU, from Russia, non-EU, using a technical solution at the border. And now you question whether or not it is true. That is deeply insulting. Why would I lie? Of course its bloody true.*

Click to expand...

I am not questioning what happens now in other countries and across other borders - I might question whether it is relevant or appropriate to the NI/EU border.  

But let us assume that technical solutions implemented elsewhere (though not it seems that efficiently on the Swiss/EU border) ARE appropriate and the UK has been strung along by the EU to get to this cul-de-sac mess we are in.  If this is indeed the case then there is no issue with such a technical solution being implemented within the Transition Period - the backstop will never come into play.  The UK accepts the Withdrawal Agreement as it stands - the EU has got it's way - and so it let's the technical solution to the NI/EU be implemented.  Even it the EU didn't - the UK could implement our own on the NI side of the border.

So in believing that the solutions exist as you and others insist - why would the backstop solution that ties the UK into a customs alignment with the EU ever be initiated - even temporarily.  The backstop is only there in the event that there is NO solution - technical or otherwise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			There is no such thing as a No Deal.  The deal would be leaving the EU just like voters wanted.  Trading arrangements would start under WTO just like so many countries in the World, there would probably emerge a trade agreement with the EU as it would be very much in their best interests.  The UK could drop tariffs and get some more favourable trading arrangements around the world. It would take some adjustment and no doubt a degree of discomfort but kicking any bad habit brings some of that, the benefit is you become healthier, fitter and in better shape afterwards. Let's start manufacturing more, growing more, creating more worthwhile jobs and also ones that give a future to the less gifted in our country, working is a great theropy for a better life.  It isn't all gloom and doom out there
		
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You do know that Patrick Minford - advocate and champion of a _No Deal _- tells us that...

_Minfordâ€™s policy recommendation is that following a vote for Brexit, the UK should not bother striking new trade deals but instead unilaterally abolish all its import tariffs (letâ€™s call this policy â€˜Britain Aloneâ€™). The UK would simply pay the tariffs imposed by other countries on UK exports. This is usually the worst-case scenario that other economists have examined.

This would be a pretty hard sell to UK citizens. Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the â€˜eliminationâ€™ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality. But although he is relaxed about these outcomes, we suspect that voters in Port Talbot and elsewhere in Britain wouldnâ€™t be so impressed._

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandp...onomists-for-brexit-defy-the-laws-of-gravity/

Or is that just Minford engaging in Project Fear...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			A bit two faced from someone who spends his days insulting the likes of *Mogg, Johnson, Trump *and many other politicians that you don't agree with. The normal balance from you again.
		
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They are LIARS and CHARLATANS...I truly do not wish to insult any person here - that some might take insult or hurt from my opinions is for them - I cannot help that.

Where someone in a position of influence LIES or attempts to DECEIVE or MISINFORM the public for their own ideological ends I call that out as I see it.


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## drdel (Nov 20, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They are LIARS and CHARLATANS...I truly do not wish to insult any person here - that some might take insult or hurt from my opinions is for them - *I cannot help that.*

Where someone in a position of influence LIES or attempts to DECEIVE or MISINFORM the public for their own ideological ends I call that out as I see it.
		
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'Shouting' isn't required. If you 'pen' comments that insults fellow members then you must take responsibility for what you've written. Obviously it is your intention

- It seems hysteria has entered the room and the thread's heading downhill as it did  some months ago with 'Mark 1'


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 20, 2018)

Good news, all is not yet lost.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...court-if-brexit-can-be-reversed-a3994556.html


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They are LIARS and CHARLATANS...I truly do not wish to insult any person here - that some might take insult or hurt from my opinions is for them - I cannot help that.

Where someone in a position of influence LIES or attempts to DECEIVE or MISINFORM the public for their own ideological ends I call that out as I see it.
		
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But were they telling lies or were they just exaggerating?


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			A bit two faced from someone who spends his days insulting the likes of Mogg, Johnson, Trump and many other politicians that you don't agree with. The normal balance from you again.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They are LIARS and CHARLATANS..*.I truly do not wish to insult any person here* - that some might take insult or hurt from my opinions is for them - I cannot help that.
		
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He didn't say you did


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## adam6177 (Nov 20, 2018)

If you have a spare 10 minutes I just came across this speech and found some parts of it to be quite pertinent


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## Dando (Nov 20, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			But were they telling lies or were they just exaggerating?
		
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Leavers lie and remainers exaggerate!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 20, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good news, all is not yet lost.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...court-if-brexit-can-be-reversed-a3994556.html

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Good news for who?


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## Fade and Die (Nov 20, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Good news for who?
		
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The noisy minority.


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2018)

Is that the noisy minority who lost the vote or the noisy minority now?


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## bluewolf (Nov 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Is that the noisy minority who lost the vote or the noisy minority now?
		
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You little devil you...... ðŸ˜‚


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2018)

adam6177 said:



			If you have a spare 10 minutes I just came across this speech and found some parts of it to be quite pertinent







Click to expand...

Sadly doing little more than perpetuating the myth that many Leave voters choose to hold about what Remain voters think of Leave voters.  Simply fits the Leave anti-Remoaner agenda -_ 'look what these Remoaners think of us - well they can just suck it up - we won'  _

And what about the rest of it - the rest that isn't pertinent?


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sadly doing little more than perpetuating the myth that many Leave voters choose to hold about what Remain voters think of Leave voters.  Simply fits the Leave anti-Remoaner agenda -_ 'look what these Remoaners think of us - well they can just suck it up - we won'  _

And what about the rest of it - the rest that isn't pertinent?
		
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If you read some of your early posts, when it was still very raw to you, a lot of what he says early in the vid is what you were reporting/saying about Leavers. It also reflects what the media were saying. I can understand why he says what he does. He, and other Leavers, have taken a huge amount of flak. And, dare I say, that's exactly why you get the flak that you do. 

You'd do well to look back at some of your early posts.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You do know that Patrick Minford - advocate and champion of a _No Deal _- tells us that...

_Minfordâ€™s policy recommendation is that following a vote for Brexit, the UK should not bother striking new trade deals but instead unilaterally abolish all its import tariffs (letâ€™s call this policy â€˜Britain Aloneâ€™). The UK would simply pay the tariffs imposed by other countries on UK exports. This is usually the worst-case scenario that other economists have examined._

_This would be a pretty hard sell to UK citizens. Minford admits his model predicts that the policy would cause the â€˜eliminationâ€™ of UK manufacturing and a large increase in wage inequality. But although he is relaxed about these outcomes, we suspect that voters in Port Talbot and elsewhere in Britain wouldnâ€™t be so impressed._

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandp...onomists-for-brexit-defy-the-laws-of-gravity/

Or is that just Minford engaging in Project Fear...
		
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I didnt mention Patrick Minford, did I?   No doubt you and I could spend all our day quoting what this and that person has said but whats the point.   Read my post and then make a level headed response to it, that would be much better than all this prevarication.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Er..That - falling back to WTO Trading arrangements and the minimum set of ties to the EU - i's what (I believe) everybody means by 'No Deal'! Of course there's still the 'divorce settlement' of committed funding of agreed projects, salaries/pensions and likely a few other items to negotiate. But Article 50 certainly allows for a 'No Deal' situation!
		
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People exaggerate a lot using terms like 'No Deal' 'Crashing Out' 'Falling off a cliff edge'  and much more. This is an attempt by one side of the discussion to use emotive language rather than debate the subject matter.    I reiterate that Leaving the EU with no formal agreement may create some short /medium term difficulties but IMO the potential benefits outweigh this.    Our country through it's history had to make decisions that would be potentially bad for some of the population but you have to consider the long game.


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			You little devil you...... ðŸ˜‚
		
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Sorry, I just couldn't stop myself...


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## Slime (Nov 20, 2018)

drive4show said:



			Good news for who?
		
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Those who don't believe in democracy.


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## Old Skier (Nov 20, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			But were they telling lies or were they just exaggerating?
		
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Depends which side of the fence SILH is sitting.

Any answer on the "Never be an EU Army" promise from the remain side SILH.


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## Hobbit (Nov 20, 2018)

The attached is a piece from Sky News, broadcast earlier today. The first couple of minutes suffers from mic problems. After that, up to the 22nd minute, its business leaders who currently trade across the EU and the rest of the world. Specifically, its how goods flow in and out of the UK, the electronic systems in place and the impact, or non-impact, they have at the ports of entry. Its also interesting to hear someone form the Netherlands expressing surprise about the lack of promotion of electronic systems, those systems being in place for over 20 years.

Whatever your views on in or out, its worth listening to how trade of goods currently takes place. And after listening to it, will there really be the 'just in time' problems you've heard from Land Rover et al?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The attached is a piece from Sky News, broadcast earlier today. The first couple of minutes suffers from mic problems. After that, up to the 22nd minute, its business leaders who currently trade across the EU and the rest of the world. Specifically, its how goods flow in and out of the UK, the electronic systems in place and the impact, or non-impact, they have at the ports of entry. Its also interesting to hear someone form the Netherlands expressing surprise about the lack of promotion of electronic systems, those systems being in place for over 20 years.

Whatever your views on in or out, its worth listening to how trade of goods currently takes place. And after listening to it, will there really be the 'just in time' problems you've heard from Land Rover et al?







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None of the major manufacturers can tolerate just in time issues... the electronic system has one chance and failure will not be tolerated. 
There are back stop plans in place and it wonâ€™t be the big business that will take the brunt. Volume selling vehicles will be made in other sites, supported by EU funding. Low volume prestigious brands or flagship product will probably stay as just in time isnâ€™t an issue, their customers can wait and are prepared to wait. It could also be used to make a product more attractive.. fewer, harder availability etc..


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			None of the major manufacturers can tolerate just in time issues... the electronic system has one chance and failure will not be tolerated.
There are back stop plans in place and it wonâ€™t be the big business that will take the brunt. Volume selling vehicles will be made in other sites, supported by EU funding. Low volume prestigious brands or flagship product will probably stay as just in time isnâ€™t an issue, their customers can wait and are prepared to wait. It could also be used to make a product more attractive.. fewer, harder availability etc..
		
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Jit production is only workable in certain processes, you cannot have a product like a motor car production line relying on a days components in the factory and fleets of lorries trundling across Europe with the components required tomorrow.  These production lines have local warehouses with considerable stocks of components that are delivered to the production lines as required or Just in time, this means the production facility does not need a large local supply of parts.  How could such a production line expect to rely on the next days components being stuck in a traffic jam on the M4 or stopped by French strikers.  Think about it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you're right maybe I am, that's what decision making is about, you take into account your Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats then balance them against each other..  If you are not prepared to take considered risks and forge opportunities but rather wallow in a security blanket that gradually saps your strength and spirit then that's not for me. 

You really do dwell on the negative, I would guess you've never ran a business or employed people, never had to make a decision that could either ruin you or become a cash cow.

What could we manufacture?  If you need me to answer that for you then you really are lacking in vision.   Is it better to import a pair of socks from China and sell for Â£1 while keeping a person out of work or get them to make the socks and sell them for Â£2 and keep that person in work.
		
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Itâ€™s a bit a company thatâ€™s taking a risk though is it - itâ€™s the whole country and peopleâ€™s livelihoods and lives on the line here. You appear so flippant about something that can harm a lot of the country 

Whatâ€™s all this â€œwallowing and sapping strength and security stuffâ€ - millions have thrived under the blanket of the EU , companies have flourished , towns have improved. 

But all you seem to be doing is harking back to days of â€œBritish Industryâ€ which failed because it was poor quality as well as being more expensive 

And producing more expensive items from the UK wonâ€™t keep people in work. That â€œimportâ€ from China also keeps people in the UK in a job ? And who pays the extra wages to pay for the more expensive British stuff then. 

And then there is N Ireland. But I suspect you havenâ€™t got the answers to them and how they deal with the border


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Jit production is only workable in certain processes, you cannot have a product like a motor car production line relying on a days components in the factory and fleets of lorries trundling across Europe with the components required tomorrow.  These production lines have local warehouses with considerable stocks of components that are delivered to the production lines as required or Just in time, this means the production facility does not need a large local supply of parts.  How could such a production line expect to rely on the next days components being stuck in a traffic jam on the M4 or stopped by French strikers.  Think about it.
		
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Here is a comment from someone who works with Mini ( BMW )

Hi Peter, itâ€™s not as simple as just going onto WTO. Iâ€™ll give you one example:
BMW own the Mini brand. Mini is based in Cowley. One engine component (camshaft) goes back and forth to the EU four times in production. That movement is seamless and tariff free.
WTO would mean a customs check and charge on each movement.
Think about the end game.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Here is a comment from someone who works with Mini ( BMW )

Hi Peter, itâ€™s not as simple as just going onto WTO. Iâ€™ll give you one example:
BMW own the Mini brand. Mini is based in Cowley. One engine component (camshaft) goes back and forth to the EU four times in production. That movement is seamless and tariff free.
WTO would mean a customs check and charge on each movement.
Think about the end game.
		
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That comment is not just untrue it's stupid
 I speak as a professional Mechanical Engineer and understand a lot about manufacturing. What kind of company would transfer the manufacture of a Camshaft back and forth to the EU four times in production. The complete process from casting to finish machining will be carried out in one location, the process is not rocket science and only an organisation set on adding a great deal of cost would do it that way and these people don't do that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			That comment is not just untrue it's stupid
I speak as a professional Mechanical Engineer and understand a lot about manufacturing. What kind of company would transfer the manufacture of a Camshaft back and forth to the EU four times in production. The complete process from casting to finish machining will be carried out in one location, the process is not rocket science and only an organisation set on adding a great deal of cost would do it that way and these people don't do that.
		
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Actually it is true and I know the guy and he does work for BMW - unless of course you â€œknowâ€ they do it differently or you just have an opinion on how is should happen because it fits in with the situation you want to happen

As has been said by a lot of people - millions of people are affected by the Eu and working within the EU boundaries without restrictions, it is ingrained in many companies, add in any barrier no matter how small is going to cause pain and uplift to somewhere where there will be minimal restrictions- but you will prob dismiss things like that under the banner â€œproject Fear


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2018)

I suppose you all know that following Amber Rudd's work assessment for her new ministerial post she was judged to be unfit for work.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			That comment is not just untrue it's stupid
I speak as a professional Mechanical Engineer and understand a lot about manufacturing. What kind of company would transfer the manufacture of a Camshaft back and forth to the EU four times in production. The complete process from casting to finish machining will be carried out in one location, the process is not rocket science and only an organisation set on adding a great deal of cost would do it that way and these people don't do that.
		
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That statement is true and a small drop in the pond, car components are sourced from all over the world. Those from outside of Europe offer a massive risk to the lines, â€ jitâ€ is used but frequently comes undone. Thankfully the EU open boarders allow the freedom of majority of components to be free to move and its only disasters such as factory fires that impact. 
Frankly your response has shown that you are not engaged with reality.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Actually it is true and I know the guy and he does work for BMW - unless of course you â€œknowâ€ they do it differently or you just have an opinion on how is should happen because it fits in with the situation you want to happen

As has been said by a lot of people - millions of people are affected by the Eu and working within the EU boundaries without restrictions, it is ingrained in many companies, add in any barrier no matter how small is going to cause pain and uplift to somewhere where there will be minimal restrictions- but you will prob dismiss things like that under the banner â€œproject Fear
		
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So it's true because you know the man. I'm telling you it's rubbish, no manufacturer of high batch component production would work that way
 The complete machining process will be carried out in an automated machining cell where the part will be made with CNC machine tools with robotic handling and metrology systems to ensure quality and interchangeability.  

The rest of your comments are just opinions and guess what? Negative whatiffery. 

You seem to miss the point that the EU is merely a protectionist organisation that want to be something that has never and will never work, an empire of Europe.  Let's have a bit of backbone and faith in our country instead of your preference of running scared.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's true because you know the man. I'm telling you it's rubbish, no manufacturer of high batch component production would work that way
The complete machining process will be carried out in an automated machining cell where the part will be made with CNC machine tools with robotic handling and metrology systems to ensure quality and interchangeability. 

The rest of your comments are just opinions and guess what? Negative whatiffery.

You seem to miss the point that the EU is merely a protectionist organisation that want to be something that has never and will never work, an empire of Europe.  Let's have a bit of backbone and faith in our country instead of your preference of running scared.
		
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But you donâ€™t know their process to dismiss it so bluntly- the guy works in BMW in the Manufacturing of the Mini in Oxford - unless of course you work for them Iâ€™m going to suggest it irrelevant what you think they should do. 

No Iâ€™m not running scared - I would rather not play Russian Roulette with the population of the country based on â€œfaithâ€ - sorry but thatâ€™s not reality hence why I think you no longer work. 

Oh and one of the install teams that we employ have just folded due to the collapsing of three deals with companies in Ireland, France and Holland because of Brexit fears - thatâ€™s 7 engineers out of the job now - do you want to go and ask them about faith in the country and backbone as they need to figure out what to do before Xmas. No I doubt it because you prob donâ€™t care - itâ€™s all â€œLeave means Leaveâ€ .


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			That statement is true and a small drop in the pond, car components are sourced from all over the world. Those from outside of Europe offer a massive risk to the lines, â€ jitâ€ is used but frequently comes undone. Thankfully the EU open boarders allow the freedom of majority of components to be free to move and its only disasters such as factory fires that impact.
Frankly your response has shown that you are not engaged with reality.
		
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It's a great deal better informed than yours.  Where do you get this information from, are you an Engineer or had ant experience with component manufacturing. I would guess not.

of course components are sourced from all over the world but they don't get shunted back and forth from country to country to carry out machining operations. That's just stupid logic.

My engagement with reality in this matter is based on a lifetimes experience and professional qualifications. What do you base yours on?


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## bluewolf (Nov 21, 2018)

5 seconds on google brings up this...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

However, it's in The Guardian so it's probably just rabid left wing drivel ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But you donâ€™t know their process to dismiss it so bluntly- the guy works in BMW in the Manufacturing of the Mini in Oxford - unless of course you work for them Iâ€™m going to suggest it irrelevant what you think they should do.

No Iâ€™m not running scared - I would rather not play Russian Roulette with the population of the country based on â€œfaithâ€ - sorry but thatâ€™s not reality hence why I think you no longer work.

Oh and one of the install teams that we employ have just folded due to the collapsing of three deals with companies in Ireland, France and Holland because of Brexit fears - thatâ€™s 7 engineers out of the job now - do you want to go and ask them about faith in the country and backbone as they need to figure out what to do before Xmas. No I doubt it because you prob donâ€™t care - itâ€™s all â€œLeave means Leaveâ€ .
		
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I know the process you describe is not practical and goes completely against best practice and common sense. Unless you can back it up with more than something someone said then I will continue to disbelieve it.

I will take your last paragraph as another dose of exaggeration, unless you can show some proof of course,  maybe an article from a local news paper or similar.


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## Hobbit (Nov 21, 2018)

Who runs the UK, the manufacturers or the government on our behalf? What is BMW's profit forecast for 2018? What are car sales dipping so badly this year?

Guess what, even with Brexit the UK profit forecast for BMW is Â£71m. The global profit is expected to be Â£81bn. The net profit is expected to be between Â£8bn and Â£10bn. But BMW are expected to miss their target for the first time in over 10 years. WHY? BMW's biggest market is China, and BMW's biggest manufacturing plant is in the USA. China have slapped a (retaliatory) tariff of 40% on BMW. But that doesn't explain why BMW is closing its plant in the UK for one month starting on Brexit day.

BMW's, and every other car manufacturer selling in Europe, are being totally stuffed by the EU's inefficiency in producing the new manufacturing regs for engines. Its well documented. And strangely enough several manufacturers in other EU countries, not just in the UK, are having shutdowns. Sales are down because people, and especially fleet managers, haven't got a clue what will be the most efficient, and tax efficient, car to buy.

But to go back to the first question; when you start letting big business dictate how a country is run you're on a slippery slope. All BMW is interested in is hitting its numbers by selling cars. No doubt Brexit will impact on movement, for a VERY short period whilst the mechanisms and efficiencies are aligned to new processes. But if you think Brexit is going to force BMW to shut its plant in the UK you've got your head up your ar5e. The previous Brexit thread had a lot of info on the total cost of shutting a plant down, Nissan. It would cost way, way more to shut a plant down and rebuild elsewhere than it would to resolve short term issues.

As a side note, Spain's train manufacturer has announced its opening a large new plant............................................................ in Scotland. Do you honestly think that senior business leaders, not owners of a corner shop, would take massive risks? Get real.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I know the process you describe is not practical and goes completely against best practice and common sense. Unless you can back it up with more than something someone said then I will continue to disbelieve it.

I will take your last paragraph as another dose of exaggeration, unless you can show some proof of course,  maybe an article from a local news paper or similar.
		
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You are going to continue to disbelieve everything that shows that leaving the EU has the potential to be catastrophic for a lot of people and itâ€™s already harming people 

Because you donâ€™t live in the reality right now , you donâ€™t have to work alongside EU partners to have a thriving business and a big work force relying on the link with the EU 

You donâ€™t care - itâ€™s all about leaving the EU and not worry about the consequences- because we will have faith and any other out of touch blah you produce. 

We need a deal with the EU - a lot of peopleâ€™s lives rely on a deal with the EU , thankfully a lot of people in the decision making process are smart enough to understand that


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			5 seconds on google brings up this...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

However, it's in The Guardian so it's probably just rabid left wing drivel ðŸ˜‰
		
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But the crankshaft is not sent back and forth four times in manufacture as was suggested. It is cast then sent to be finish machined.  Assembling it to the engine then exporting the car is nothing to do with making the camshaft.

Seems like Phil mate down the pub is also Guardian Editor.


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## drdel (Nov 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Actually it is true and I know the guy and he does work for BMW - unless of course you â€œknowâ€ they do it differently or you just have an opinion on how is should happen because it fits in with the situation you want to happen

As has been said by a lot of people - millions of people are affected by the Eu and working within the EU boundaries without restrictions, it is ingrained in many companies, add in any barrier no matter how small is going to cause pain and uplift to somewhere where there will be minimal restrictions- but you will prob dismiss things like that under the banner â€œproject Fear
		
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I don't know the specifics of the Mini supply chain but many logistics activities are often for 'bulking' and/or tax accounts reasons  even if they appear silly.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are going to continue to disbelieve everything that shows that leaving the EU has the potential to be catastrophic for a lot of people and itâ€™s already harming people 

Because you donâ€™t live in the reality right now , you donâ€™t have to work alongside EU partners to have a thriving business and a big work force relying on the link with the EU 

You donâ€™t care - itâ€™s all about leaving the EU and not worry about the consequences- because we will have faith and any other out of touch blah you produce. 

We need a deal with the EU - a lot of peopleâ€™s lives rely on a deal with the EU , thankfully a lot of people in the decision making process are smart enough to understand that
		
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You seem to be so blinded with personal prejudice you don't follow my posts.

I have posted  many times that our best output from Brexit would be a free trade agreement,  this would be in the best interest of both parties.  I  also see that we will have a payment to make for our responsibilities for pensions etc.   I would like an orderly exit from the EU.  What I don't agree with is the way the EU and our own government are screwing us over with this latest debacle of a deal. I honestly believe we would be better of with no Deal and could do well outside the EU.

I guess I am entitled to this opinion as you are to yours, I don't rubbish you because you have a different view though
.  What you need to be realistic on is that my view is just that, my view, I didn't get more than one vote in the referendum I got one just like you.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			It's a great deal better informed than yours.  Where do you get this information from, are you an Engineer or had ant experience with component manufacturing. I would guess not.

of course components are sourced from all over the world but they don't get shunted back and forth from country to country to carry out machining operations. That's just stupid logic.

My engagement with reality in this matter is based on a lifetimes experience and professional qualifications. What do you base yours on?
		
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Yes I am an engineer, degree qualified and a component specialist with over 25 years experience... so yeah I know what I am talking about. Components do get shunted from country to country to have different processes applied, cars are far more complex than a couple of cast bits here and there.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 21, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes I am an engineer, degree qualified and a component specialist with over 25 years experience... so yeah I know what I am talking about. Components do get shunted from country to country to have different processes applied, cars are far more complex than a couple of cast bits here and there.
		
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Then you will understand how machining cells operate and how unproductive it would be to machine different operations on a crankshaft in different countries. It was suggested that the BMW crankshaft was  shipped back and forth from the UK and continent four times in its manufacture which is not the case. It's cast abroad and machined in the UK.  This of course is not a Jit process


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## harpo_72 (Nov 21, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Then you will understand how machining cells operate and how unproductive it would be to machine different operations on a crankshaft in different countries. It was suggested that the BMW crankshaft was  shipped back and forth from the UK and continent four times in its manufacture which is not the case. It's cast abroad and machined in the UK.  This of course is not a Jit process.
		
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A component can be cast in one country, and machine finished in another and then have a coating applied in another, then have a bush inserted in another site and then make its way to a stockpile which will sit for a period of time depending on the orders in the bank. 
Now letâ€™s just park it and accept this is the way it is, it isnâ€™t ideal but this is what happens.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 21, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Here is a comment from someone who works with Mini ( BMW )

Hi Peter, itâ€™s not as simple as just going onto WTO. Iâ€™ll give you one example:
BMW own the Mini brand. Mini is based in Cowley. One engine component (camshaft) goes back and forth to the EU four times in production. That movement is seamless and tariff free.
WTO would mean a customs check and charge on each movement.
Think about the end game.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Phil, but as article in The Guardian clearly explains it the comment is wrong; the raw camshaft is cast in France, it travels to England for finishing, it's then sent to Germany to be put into the engine, then the engine is sent back to England for assembly.  So the camshaft only makes 2 journeys as an individual component, not 4.  It only makes a total of 3 movements as a component or in the engine if it is going into a RHD Mini.  The 4th journey only occurs if the Mini is LHD and is going back to the continent.  The camshaft as a component clearly doesn't make 4 journeys.

This does of course assume that The Guardian article is correct and not rabid left wing drivel. 

But assuming it is correct, does that make the Mini man's comment a whopping great porky or a slight exaggeration?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 21, 2018)

Spain, [the same Spain whom the loud UK Unionists gleefully claimed would block Scotland joining the EU in 2014....they didn't and they won't] 
Now talking about blocking the UK's bid to leave the EU over the future of Gibraltar. 

Brexit is truly is a 'Yes Minister' script being played out in a parallel universe.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Spain, [the same Spain whom the loud UK Unionists gleefully claimed would block Scotland joining the EU in 2014....they didn't and they won't]
*Now talking about blocking the UK's bid to leave the EU *over the future of Gibraltar.

Brexit is truly is a 'Yes Minister' script being played out in a parallel universe.
		
Click to expand...

How exactly are Spain going to block the UK from leaving the EU? I wasn't aware that countries had a veto over other countries leaving.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 22, 2018)

JiT  is a smokescreen used by big business as leverage to obtain bigger subsidies or tax breaks... If the emissions scandal wasn't sufficient then the arrest of the guy in Japan should be enough to show how corrupt the fat cats at the top of the pile are...


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## bobmac (Nov 22, 2018)

Surely if tariffs are imposed, Mini will find a way of making the crankshaft in one country.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 22, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			How exactly are Spain going to block the UK from leaving the EU? I wasn't aware that countries had a veto over other countries leaving.
		
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A single country can't block a deal being agreed...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			How exactly are Spain going to block the UK from leaving the EU? I wasn't aware that countries had a veto over other countries leaving.
		
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Not sure you got the irony of my post...â€¦.we need an irony emojy.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 22, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not sure you got the irony of my post...â€¦.we need an irony emojy.

Click to expand...

The 'irony ' is Spain has its own Gibraltar in Cueta... Two faced or what?


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			The 'irony ' is Spain has its own Gibraltar in Cueta... Two faced or what?
		
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You forgot Melilla, just along the coast from Cueta. Both have fencing to rival the Gaza Strip or Berlin pre-1989.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2018)

Sounding like all pretty much done and dusted..*.May's *_*Deal Better than No Deal*_*.*..and from what I am hearing the likelihood of May's WA actually getting through parliament is increasing day-on-day - though still more unlikely than likely.

And for the *Political Declaration*...setting out the basis for the future trade agreement to be determined during the 21 months transition period

_"The future relationship will be based on a balance of rights and obligations, taking into account the principles of each party._

_"This balance must ensure the autonomy of the union's decision-making and be consistent with the union's principles, in particular with respect to the integrity of the single market and the customs union and the indivisibility of the four freedoms._

_"It must also ensure the sovereignty of the United Kingdom and the protection of its internal market, while respecting the result of the 2016 referendum including with regard to the development of its independent trade policy and the ending of free movement of people between the Union and the United Kingdom."_

All good stuff...

They'll be predicting riots on the streets next...just what Johnson's WCs were for.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 22, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sounding like all pretty much done and dusted..*.May's *_*Deal Better than No Deal*_*.*..and from what I am hearing the likelihood of May's WA actually getting through parliament is increasing day-on-day - though still more unlikely than likely.

And for the *Political Declaration*...setting out the basis for the future trade agreement to be determined during the 21 months transition period

_"The future relationship will be based on a balance of rights and obligations, taking into account the principles of each party._

_"This balance must ensure the autonomy of the union's decision-making and be consistent with the union's principles, in particular with respect to the integrity of the single market and the customs union and the indivisibility of the four freedoms._

_"It must also ensure the sovereignty of the United Kingdom and the protection of its internal market, while respecting the result of the 2016 referendum including with regard to the development of its independent trade policy and the ending of free movement of people between the Union and the United Kingdom."_

All good stuff...

They'll be predicting riots on the streets next...just what Johnson's WCs were for.
		
Click to expand...

Is that the water cannons he bought for Â£350K [?] that were recently sold, unused, for Â£11k.
After Rudd's resurrection, does that make Johnson a lock on for next the chancellor.

Re free movement, I strongly believe that there are many Brexiteers who think that this is only a 'one way' deal and will not affect them.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sounding like all pretty much done and dusted..*.May's *_*Deal Better than No Deal*_*.*..and from what I am hearing the likelihood of May's WA actually getting through parliament is increasing day-on-day - though still more unlikely than likely.

And for the *Political Declaration*...setting out the basis for the future trade agreement to be determined during the 21 months transition period

_"The future relationship will be based on a balance of rights and obligations, taking into account the principles of each party._

_"This balance must ensure the autonomy of the union's decision-making and be consistent with the union's principles, in particular with respect to the integrity of the single market and the customs union and the indivisibility of the four freedoms._

_"It must also ensure the sovereignty of the United Kingdom and the protection of its internal market, while respecting the result of the 2016 referendum including with regard to the development of its independent trade policy and the ending of free movement of people between the Union and the United Kingdom."_

All good stuff...

They'll be predicting riots on the streets next...just what Johnson's WCs were for.
		
Click to expand...

He's still sat on your shoulder then.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 22, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Surely if tariffs are imposed, Mini will find a way of making the crankshaft in one country.
		
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Yes, but that will take time, so deal or no deal needs to be determined to kick off the sourcing. The thing is they will look across the whole car and determine their strategy. 
There will always be components that will come from the continent but that could be managed. The issue lies in whether the UK supplier will hit the cost target.


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## bobmac (Nov 22, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



*Yes, but that will take time*, so deal or no deal needs to be determined to kick off the sourcing.
		
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Possibly, but in the long term the crankshaft will be made in one place which will actually save time and money.
In my opinion, the issue is people look for problems and when they find them, they stop looking.
If they kept looking they might find solutions


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes, but that will take time, so deal or no deal needs to be determined to kick off the sourcing. The thing is they will look across the whole car and determine their strategy.
There will always be components that will come from the continent but that could be managed. The issue lies in whether the UK supplier will hit the cost target.
		
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Of course they could, we are told that people in the UK are paid low wages such that they have to rely on food banks, many are supposedly working on the minimum wage and zero hours contracts. The CBI are bricking it in case they will lose access to unlimited numbers of low paid immigrants.  In a hard nosed economy like the UK overhead cost should be rock bottom. There is always the backstop of a Corbyn government. What can go wrong?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 22, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Possibly, but in the long term the crankshaft will be made in one place which will actually save time and money.
In my opinion, the issue is people look for problems and when they find them, they stop looking.
If they kept looking they might find solutions
		
Click to expand...

Appreciate the sentiment but years have past and the skills have migrated to more complex industries. It would be great to be back to our Victorian greatness where an engineer designs, the raw materials are worked and the finished item rolls out of the door. As a nation we did not plan for this day, we donâ€™t have those people with those skills ready to go ... to have a vision you need a plan and the complex plan is broken down with milestones for achievable goals. 
Brexit has none, it has an enthusiasm, a confused agenda, a lack of patience, and an end goal. Ultimately it needs better planning, agreed goals and it needs to engage and change peopleâ€™s minds.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Appreciate the sentiment but years have past and the skills have migrated to more complex industries. It would be great to be back to our Victorian greatness where an engineer designs, the raw materials are worked and the finished item rolls out of the door. As a nation we did not plan for this day, we donâ€™t have those people with those skills ready to go ... to have a vision you need a plan and the complex plan is broken down with milestones for achievable goals.
Brexit has none, it has an enthusiasm, a confused agenda, a lack of patience, and an end goal. Ultimately it needs better planning, agreed goals and it needs to engage and change peopleâ€™s minds.
		
Click to expand...

Victorian greatness?  What you explain is exactly what happens up and down the country every day, parts are designed using CadCam and finite element design software, raw materials are worked on using modern flexible manufacturing systems and the component is either passed to the next process or out the door.  We dont need people who turn handles on machines anymore, those skills have been replaced by manufacturing software and CNC machine tools.  Drop into almost any trading estate around the country and you can see these processes in action.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 23, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Victorian greatness?  What you explain is exactly what happens up and down the country every day, parts are designed using CadCam and finite element design software, raw materials are worked on using modern flexible manufacturing systems and the component is either passed to the next process or out the door.  We dont need people who turn handles on machines anymore, those skills have been replaced by manufacturing software and CNC machine tools.  Drop into almost any trading estate around the country and you can see these processes in action.
		
Click to expand...

So why are we sourcing from all over the world if we do it here .... probably because we donâ€™t do it to the volume, cost effectiveness, quality or skill level.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 23, 2018)

LEAVER: I want an omelette.

REMAINER: Right. Itâ€™s just we havenâ€™t got any eggs.

LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE]

REMAINER: Theyâ€™re in the cake.

LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.

REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.

LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.

REMAINER: Icing is good.

LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I donâ€™t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.

DAVID CAMERON ENTERS.

DAVID CAMERON: OK.

DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS.

LEAVER: Right, whereâ€™s my omelette?

REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.

LEAVER: Well, get them out.

EU: Itâ€™s our cake.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.

REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Donâ€™t you know how to get them out?

LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.

REMAINER: But how?! Didnâ€™t you give this any thought?

LEAVER: Saboteur! Youâ€™re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so thereâ€™s no reason why we canâ€™t make them now.

THERESA MAY: Itâ€™s OK, I can do it.

REMAINER: How?

THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.

REMAINER: Yeah, butâ€¦

LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we donâ€™t have any cake? I didnâ€™t say I didnâ€™t want the cake, just the bits I donâ€™t like.

EU: Itâ€™s our cake.

REMAINER: But you canâ€™t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.

LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. Itâ€™s just that theyâ€™re horrible.

REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.

LEAVER: Itâ€™s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.

REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?

LEAVER: You lost, get over it.

THERESA MAY: By the way, Iâ€™ve started the clock on this.

REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?

THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.

REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.

EU: Itâ€™s our cake.

LEAVER: Whereâ€™s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.

REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what weâ€™re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.

LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.

REMAINER: Fine, Iâ€™m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.

LEAVER: You canâ€™t. Weâ€™ve taken your freedom of movement.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 23, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			LEAVER: I want an omelette.

REMAINER: Right. Itâ€™s just we havenâ€™t got any eggs.

LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE]

REMAINER: Theyâ€™re in the cake.

LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.

REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.

LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.

REMAINER: Icing is good.

LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I donâ€™t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.

DAVID CAMERON ENTERS.

DAVID CAMERON: OK.

DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS.

LEAVER: Right, whereâ€™s my omelette?

REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.

LEAVER: Well, get them out.

EU: Itâ€™s our cake.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.

REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Donâ€™t you know how to get them out?

LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.

REMAINER: But how?! Didnâ€™t you give this any thought?

LEAVER: Saboteur! Youâ€™re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so thereâ€™s no reason why we canâ€™t make them now.

THERESA MAY: Itâ€™s OK, I can do it.

REMAINER: How?

THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.

REMAINER: Yeah, butâ€¦

LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we donâ€™t have any cake? I didnâ€™t say I didnâ€™t want the cake, just the bits I donâ€™t like.

EU: Itâ€™s our cake.

REMAINER: But you canâ€™t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.

LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. Itâ€™s just that theyâ€™re horrible.

REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.

LEAVER: Itâ€™s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.

REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?

LEAVER: You lost, get over it.

THERESA MAY: By the way, Iâ€™ve started the clock on this.

REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?

THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.

REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.

EU: Itâ€™s our cake.

LEAVER: Whereâ€™s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.

REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what weâ€™re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.

LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.

REMAINER: Fine, Iâ€™m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.

LEAVER: You canâ€™t. Weâ€™ve taken your freedom of movement.
		
Click to expand...



I hope you cut and pasted that because it really wasnâ€™t worth the effort of typing it. ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 23, 2018)

Question:

Is TM completely in a delusional bubble or does she have an end game in her mind that bears no resemblence to the deal she is putting forward?

I ask this because MP's, Ministers behind the scences, political journalists etc have been saying since Chequers that this deal will not get through the HoC. Not even close. She refuses to listen and ploughs on, the inevitable defeat coming closer and closer. So come on then, smart people. Which of the above do you think it is? Delusional bubble or secret end game?


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## ger147 (Nov 23, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Question:

Is TM completely in a delusional bubble or does she have an end game in her mind that bears no resemblence to the deal she is putting forward?

I ask this because MP's, Ministers behind the scences, political journalists etc have been saying since Chequers that this deal will not get through the HoC. Not even close. She refuses to listen and ploughs on, the inevitable defeat coming closer and closer. So come on then, smart people. Which of the above do you think it is? Delusional bubble or secret end game?
		
Click to expand...

I was one of the first folk to scoff/laugh at the deal and my initial estimate was it had a 0% chance of getting thru the HoC's.  Having watched the events of the last week unfold, my revised estimate of the May deal getting thru the HoC's is now 50% i.e. I think she has a real chance of getting this deal thru.  The Tory rebels got less than 30 letters to try and oust her via a leadership contest, and with a decent chunk of Labour back bench MP's unlikely to follow Corbyn's instruction to vote against it, she just might get it thru after all.  It's gonna be very VERY tight and the wheels might still totally come off before we get to the HoC's vote, but I honestly believe she is NOT delusional, the deal has a real chance of making it IMO.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 23, 2018)

She tried to bribed the DUP with a Â£1.3,000,000,000.00 cash for votes bung.
They will now be voting against her alongside about 40 Tory rebels.

No chance whatsoever of getting it through, she is actually leading a minority Government right now.
Call and election and base it on in or out lines.
Guaranteed to be a win for the remain side and cancel the whole shambles.


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## Hobbit (Nov 23, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Question:

Is TM completely in a delusional bubble or does she have an end game in her mind that bears no resemblence to the deal she is putting forward?

I ask this because MP's, Ministers behind the scences, political journalists etc have been saying since Chequers that this deal will not get through the HoC. Not even close. She refuses to listen and ploughs on, the inevitable defeat coming closer and closer. So come on then, smart people. Which of the above do you think it is? Delusional bubble or secret end game?
		
Click to expand...

I think she's onto a winner. The maths, currently, sees the DUP voting against it. It sees 25+ Tory MP's voting against it. And it sees a number of the Labour Brexit MP's unhappy about it. The Labour Whip may be exercised, meaning virtually all of the Labour MP's follow the party line. It then doesn't go through and a second referendum is called. The Tories are then seen as true democrats, and is also absolved of any blame for the outcome either way. A number of polls show a move to Remain. Remain wins.

Or the rebel Tory MP's vote for the deal, not wanting to bring the government down. The DUP are bought out with another Â£1bn. And the deal goes through. Its Brexit in name only, or Remain-lite. After a few more years of Remain propaganda the UK rejoins the EU. Or after a few years without the UK's contributions and continued unrest from Southern Europe the EU offers the UK favourable terms to rejoin.


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## Slime (Nov 23, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She tried to bribed the DUP with a Â£1.3,000,000,000.00 cash for votes bung.
They will now be voting against her alongside about 40 Tory rebels.

No chance whatsoever of getting it through, she is actually leading a minority Government right now.
*Call and election and base it on in or out lines.
Guaranteed to be a win for the remain side *and cancel the whole shambles.
		
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What part of the 'The votes have been cast and the result is that we leave the EU' do you not understand?


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## jp5 (Nov 23, 2018)

The most recent ex-Brexit secretary, having only just understood our geography as an island nation, is now admitting that staying in the EU is a better option that Mrs May's deal. It certainly has been quite the month of revelations for him.


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## Hobbit (Nov 23, 2018)

Slime said:



			What part of the 'The votes have been cast and the result is that we leave the EU' do you not understand?
		
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Its very easy to understand. But do you believe our politicians are just going to leave. The electorate made the wrong decision but don't worry the politicians are going to put it right.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 23, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Its very easy to understand. But do you believe our politicians are just going to leave. The electorate made the wrong decision but don't worry the politicians are going to put it right.

Click to expand...

And it is very easy to understand that the vote asked the public whether we wanted to remain in the EU or leave it - the public voted in very large numbers and by a very small majority voted to leave - and where we are today the UK WILL be leaving the EU on 29th March come what may.

So yes - in absolute and 100% accordance with the question posed in the referendum - it is actually very easy to understand.  The UK is leaving the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			So why are we sourcing from all over the world if we do it here .... probably because we donâ€™t do it to the volume, cost effectiveness, quality or skill level.
		
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Due to multinational organisations.  Just look at a company like Volkswagen, they use the same components in VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda cars, they are not going to duplicate the manufacture of engine parts for each brand.  Its not due to British manufacturers lacking skill or can manage the volume or incompetence, we have companies that produce some of the highest quality products in the world, have a look at Rolls Royce aero engines, ot take a trip to Gloucestershire and see how the Engineering company Renishaw  ,lead the world with their products.and cutting edge technology.  You dont seem to have a lot of confidence in uk manufacturing.


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## Slime (Nov 23, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Its very easy to understand. But do you believe our politicians are just going to leave. *The electorate made the wrong decision* but don't worry the politicians are going to put it right.

Click to expand...

Oh come on, that just smacks of arrogance and being a poor loser.
Remainers lost, get over it!!


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## Hobbit (Nov 23, 2018)

Slime said:



			Oh come on, that just smacks of arrogance and being a poor loser.
Remainers lost, get over it!!
		
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See the smilie at the end of my post you quoted... it was tongue in cheek humour. Loosen your bra strap and smile a little.


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 23, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Possibly, but in the long term *the crankshaft will be made in one place which will actually save time and money.*
...
		
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If that was really the case, then it would a;most certainly be happening now!

I suspect that each of those manufacturing plants actually 'specialises' in the work it does for the crankshaft - whether it be casting, finishing, motor assembly or whatever!

It's this specialisation that actually saves costs - in both human and plant resources. The transport overheads involved are significantly smaller in comparison!

That's why there's a danger of losing entire plants from UK fter Brexit. Any bureaucratic delays could be avoided by moving the UK portions of the enterprise to an EU member site!



bobmac said:



			Surely if tariffs are imposed, Mini will find a way of making the crankshaft in one country.
		
Click to expand...

Tariffs are not necessarily the greatest issue. Additional cost, whether caused by tariffs or less efficiency (see above) are the issue.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 23, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Appreciate the sentiment but years have past and the skills have migrated to more complex industries. It would be great to be back to our Victorian greatness where an engineer designs, the raw materials are worked and the finished item rolls out of the door. As a nation we did not plan for this day, we donâ€™t have those people with those skills ready to go ... *to have a vision you need a plan and the complex plan is broken down with milestones for achievable goals.*
Brexit has none, it has an enthusiasm, a confused agenda, a lack of patience, and an end goal. Ultimately it needs better planning, agreed goals and it needs to engage and change peopleâ€™s minds.
		
Click to expand...

Remember back in the day before Art50 was triggered some of the worried were asking about the plan - asking where the plan was for leaving the EU and what the re-engagement would be like.  Remember these days?  I do.  Because I asked many, many times about the plan; milestones; criteria for knowing a milestone had been reached; and the risk analysis that any plan will have that would be required to see us through the negotiations to the end of the 2yr period post triggering Art50. 

And I remember this very clearly as my request was always dismissed by the usual suspects as being naive, silly - didn't I understand how big boys do negotiations - how important it is to keep your cards and negotiation strategy close to your chest - and to have a realistic and believable fallback position.  Of course Dave Davis can't tell us his plan or strategy for leaving - how silly of me even to ask or question that he might not actually have one - of course he's got one.  Yes I remember very well the dismissive 'oh you are so naive' responses fired at me - I remember them well as the country today sits in the most mega of all omni-shambles with nobody seemingly having any sort of plan whatsoever to see us through this.

And I can also remember what No Deal started out as - not really something we'd ever want to do - but something that all big boy grown up negotiators have to have - because negotiating leaving the EU is just the same as any big commercial negotiation (yes really it is...).  And even although most commercial negotiations will have the 'status quo' as the fallback walk-away position, this negotiation was the same - ah but it was also different - as the status quo could not be the walk-away.  No something else had to be invented - and so we ended up with No Deal as the walk-away.

I remember very well.  And I don't expect anyone to admit there was never a plan.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 23, 2018)

ger147 said:



			I was one of the first folk to scoff/laugh at the deal and my initial estimate was it had a 0% chance of getting thru the HoC's.  Having watched the events of the last week unfold, my revised estimate of the May deal getting thru the HoC's is now 50% i.e. I think she has a real chance of getting this deal thru.  The Tory rebels got less than 30 letters to try and oust her via a leadership contest, and with a decent chunk of Labour back bench MP's unlikely to follow Corbyn's instruction to vote against it, she just might get it thru after all.  It's gonna be very VERY tight and the wheels might still totally come off before we get to the HoC's vote, but I honestly believe she is NOT delusional, the deal has a real chance of making it IMO.
		
Click to expand...

This is the reading of the lie of the land I hear from quite a few commentators...


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## Hobbit (Nov 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remember back in the day before Art50 was triggered some of the worried were asking about the plan - asking where the plan was for leaving the EU and what the re-engagement would be like.  Remember these days?  I do.  Because I asked many, many times about the plan; milestones; criteria for knowing a milestone had been reached; and the risk analysis that any plan will have that would be required to see us through the negotiations to the end of the 2yr period post triggering Art50.

And I remember this very clearly as my request was always dismissed by the usual suspects as being naive, silly - didn't I understand how big boys do negotiations - how important it is to keep your cards and negotiation strategy close to your chest - and to have a realistic and believable fallback position.  Of course Dave Davis can't tell us his plan or strategy for leaving - how silly of me even to ask or question that he might not actually have one - of course he's got one.  Yes I remember very well the dismissive 'oh you are so naive' responses fired at me - I remember them well as the country today sits in the most mega of all omni-shambles with nobody seemingly having any sort of plan whatsoever to see us through this.

And I can also remember what No Deal started out as - not really something we'd ever want to do - but something that all big boy grown up negotiators have to have - because negotiating leaving the EU is just the same as any big commercial negotiation (yes really it is...).  And even although most commercial negotiations will have the 'status quo' as the fallback walk-away position, this negotiation was the same - ah but it was also different - as the status quo could not be the walk-away.  No something else had to be invented - and so we ended up with No Deal as the walk-away.

I remember very well.  And I don't expect anyone to admit there was never a plan.
		
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And the answer to your requests back then was very valid. You don't let the opposite negotiating team know what your plans are. You demanded and demanded and you were told by people well versed in negotiations that you don't disclose your plans. And not unsurprisingly you haven't taken that onboard. And yes you were being naive to ask to see that plan. But no doubt you won't take that onboard either.

As for where we are now, and No Deal plans, you know what I know. And as you know there have been teams of negotiators travelling globally for informal discussions. And that's all they're allowed to do until either the No Deal Brexit date or the end of the transition period.

The walk away, as you rightly say, is not to go back to the status quo. However, it is to open/sign new deals around the world, including with the freedom to set or abolish tariff rates and quotas. I wonder why the UK has been invited to join the fastest growing trading bloc in the world? I wonder why intelligent world leaders would invite a dead in the water country like the UK? Maybe they see something in the UK that you patently don't.


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## bluewolf (Nov 23, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And the answer to your requests back then was very valid. You don't let the opposite negotiating team know what your plans are. You demanded and demanded and you were told by people well versed in negotiations that you don't disclose your plans. And not unsurprisingly you haven't taken that onboard. And yes you were being naive to ask to see that plan. But no doubt you won't take that onboard either.

As for where we are now, and No Deal plans, you know what I know. And as you know there have been teams of negotiators travelling globally for informal discussions. And that's all they're allowed to do until either the No Deal Brexit date or the end of the transition period.

The walk away, as you rightly say, is not to go back to the status quo. However, it is to open/sign new deals around the world, including with the freedom to set or abolish tariff rates and quotas. I wonder why the UK has been invited to join the fastest growing trading bloc in the world? I wonder why intelligent world leaders would invite a dead in the water country like the UK? Maybe they see something in the UK that you patently don't.
		
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Do you play Poker Bri?
When arranging a game, it's always prudent to invite a donor to the party. Someone who has little experience and will most likely be the first to cash out. 

ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 23, 2018)

Slime said:



			What part of the 'The votes have been cast and the result is that we leave the EU' do you not understand?
		
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I understand the bit where it was said by a PM who lies and misleads parliament.


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## bobmac (Nov 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			If that was really the case, then it would a;most certainly be happening now!

I suspect that each of those manufacturing plants actually 'specialises' in the work it does for the crankshaft - whether it be casting, finishing, motor assembly or whatever!

It's this specialisation that actually saves costs - in both human and plant resources. The transport overheads involved are significantly smaller in comparison!

That's why there's a danger of losing entire plants from UK fter Brexit. Any bureaucratic delays could be avoided by moving the UK portions of the enterprise to an EU member site!



Tariffs are not necessarily the greatest issue. Additional cost, whether caused by tariffs or less efficiency (see above) are the issue.
		
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Just to be clear.........I have no interest in anything you have to say.
Ignored


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## Foxholer (Nov 23, 2018)

bobmac said:



			Just to be clear.........I have no interest in anything you have to say.
Ignored
		
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Oh Good! No more replies like the above then!

And just to be clear....I'm merely expressing my opinion - which occasionally happens to differ from yours, but, as far as I know, we are both entitled to them! That's the nature of forums and as long as everyone respects that principle, then harmony reigns! Unfortunately, that 'forum principle' often gets lost in emotive topics such as this one!


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## Imurg (Nov 23, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			And just to be clear....I'm merely expressing my opinion - which occasionally happens to differ from yours, but, as far as I know, we are both entitled to them! That's the nature of forums and as long as everyone respects that principle, then harmony reigns!
		
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Good luck with that one Foxy.....


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## Foxholer (Nov 23, 2018)

Imurg said:



			Good luck with that one Foxy.....

Click to expand...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 23, 2018)

I 


SocketRocket said:



			Due to multinational organisations.  Just look at a company like Volkswagen, they use the same components in VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda cars, they are not going to duplicate the manufacture of engine parts for each brand.  Its not due to British manufacturers lacking skill or can manage the volume or incompetence, we have companies that produce some of the highest quality products in the world, have a look at Rolls Royce aero engines, ot take a trip to Gloucestershire and see how the Engineering company Renishaw  ,lead the world with their products.and cutting edge technology.  You dont seem to have a lot of confidence in uk manufacturing.
		
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I cannot accurately comment on the aero industry and would be speculating, if it vaguely followed the UK industry it would be the Aston Martin/ Rolls Royce model not the mass production model. So volume and demand are less and the supply chain is slack.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 23, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And the answer to your requests back then was very valid. You don't let the opposite negotiating team know what your plans are. You demanded and demanded and you were told by people well versed in negotiations that you don't disclose your plans. And not unsurprisingly you haven't taken that onboard. And yes you were being naive to ask to see that plan. But no doubt you won't take that onboard either.

As for where we are now, and No Deal plans, you know what I know. And as you know there have been teams of negotiators travelling globally for informal discussions. And that's all they're allowed to do until either the No Deal Brexit date or the end of the transition period.

The walk away, as you rightly say, is not to go back to the status quo. However, it is to open/sign new deals around the world, including with the freedom to set or abolish tariff rates and quotas. I wonder why the UK has been invited to join the fastest growing trading bloc in the world? I wonder why intelligent world leaders would invite a dead in the water country like the UK? Maybe they see something in the UK that you patently don't.
		
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Bottom line is that they had no idea - not even a scoobies.  Cracking bluff to play on the EU negotiators - pretend you know what you are doing.  Don't think it worked though.  I didn't need to know the detail of the UKs wriggle room and red lines - the EU were to know very soon after.  I was asking for some idea of what the UK wished to achieve and by when. What were the risks (we eventually got the risks many many months later but only from Raab).  How would the UK public know our negotiators were on track to agree a Withdrawal Agreement...but too secret I was told - can't tell you.  And the truth is they were telling a porky to us - there was no plan. Davis was - and is - clueless.


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## Hobbit (Nov 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bottom line is that they had no idea - not even a scoobies.  Cracking bluff to play on the EU negotiators - pretend you know what you are doing.  Don't think it worked though.  I didn't need to know the detail of the UKs wriggle room and red lines - the EU were to know very soon after.  I was asking for some idea of what the UK wished to achieve and by when. What were the risks (we eventually got the risks many many months later but only from Raab).  How would the UK public know our negotiators were on track to agree a Withdrawal Agreement...but too secret I was told - can't tell you.  And the truth is they were telling a porky to us - there was no plan. Davis was - and is - clueless.
		
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In your opinion. 

If they had no idea why did they send negotiating teams around the world? A bus trip for the boys? Why have they sent out xx technical notes relating to No Deal? To waste paper?

And don't be childish with the "too secret" comment. You're better than that. You know full well you don't sit across the table from someone and ask them should you play the Ace or the Queen.

Were they telling us porky's or were they not revealing on the various news programmes, when questioned, being circumspect with the truth? And of course you know they were telling lies and clueless because they told you. They do get BBC in Brussels, and Barnier has Sky...


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## Slime (Nov 23, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			See the smilie at the end of my post you quoted... it was tongue in cheek humour. Loosen your bra strap and smile a little.
		
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Sorry Hobbit, my mistake.
If I'd bothered to see who the poster was I would probably have realised.
Sorry fella. 
Consider my bra straps loosened.


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## drdel (Nov 23, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remember back in the day before Art50 was triggered some of the worried were asking about the plan - asking where the plan was for leaving the EU and what the re-engagement would be like.  Remember these days?  I do.  Because I asked many, many times about the plan; milestones; criteria for knowing a milestone had been reached; and the risk analysis that any plan will have that would be required to see us through the negotiations to the end of the 2yr period post triggering Art50.

And I remember this very clearly as my request was always dismissed by the usual suspects as being naive, silly - didn't I understand how big boys do negotiations - how important it is to keep your cards and negotiation strategy close to your chest - and to have a realistic and believable fallback position.  Of course Dave Davis can't tell us his plan or strategy for leaving - how silly of me even to ask or question that he might not actually have one - of course he's got one.  Yes I remember very well the dismissive 'oh you are so naive' responses fired at me - I remember them well as the country today sits in the most mega of all omni-shambles with nobody seemingly having any sort of plan whatsoever to see us through this.

And I can also remember what No Deal started out as - not really something we'd ever want to do - but something that all big boy grown up negotiators have to have - because negotiating leaving the EU is just the same as any big commercial negotiation (yes really it is...).  And even although most commercial negotiations will have the 'status quo' as the fallback walk-away position, this negotiation was the same - ah but it was also different - as the status quo could not be the walk-away.  No something else had to be invented - and so we ended up with No Deal as the walk-away.

I remember very well.  And I don't expect anyone to admit there was never a plan.
		
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And I guess Barnier, Juncker,  Spain and France are angels and have  not been unreasonable or playing brinkmanship in your dreamworld where only the UK can be wrong.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			I

I cannot accurately comment on the aero industry and would be speculating, if it vaguely followed the UK industry it would be the Aston Martin/ Rolls Royce model not the mass production model. So volume and demand are less and the supply chain is slack.
		
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I used RR as an example of skilled people in this country, we still have a good stock in manufacturing and they're not all imported.  Another low volume ,highly skilled workforce is just down the road from me at Morgan Cars, they have a very highly skilled workforce and still have the people that can turn out these cars where much is made by hand. Again their skilled workforce is mainly made up from local people who have been train as apprentices in the factory.  I have worked with very expert tool making companies all over the UK that turn out tooling for a wide range of technologies from Plastic/aluminium extrusion dies to press tools for high production runs. I could go on with others like Renishaw who manufacture high numbers of specialised probing and metrology  systems that make high production manufacturing possible.  Please dont write off the UK as a capable manufacturer.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 23, 2018)

I see it now looks like May is dishing out knighthoods to Eurosceptic Tory MP's as well as buying support from the DUP.
Absolutely stinking rotten Westminster system.

Clair Fields is online today and hardly a mention in the UK press/Media.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 23, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I used RR as an example of skilled people in this country, we still have a good stock in manufacturing and they're not all imported.  Another low volume ,highly skilled workforce is just down the road from me at Morgan Cars, they have a very highly skilled workforce and still have the people that can turn out these cars where much is made by hand. Again their skilled workforce is mainly made up from local people who have been train as apprentices in the factory.  I have worked with very expert tool making companies all over the UK that turn out tooling for a wide range of technologies from Plastic/aluminium extrusion dies to press tools for high production runs. I could go on with others like Renishaw who manufacture high numbers of specialised probing and metrology  systems that make high production manufacturing possible.  Please dont write off the UK as a capable manufacturer.
		
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I am sure you can ... but can they deliver 20k components a week baring in mind they will have ones out of tolerance so the builds will be bigger?


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## Old Skier (Nov 24, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			I hope you cut and pasted that because it really wasnâ€™t worth the effort of typing it. ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´
		
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It's been doing the rounds for months, no even original


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			It's been doing the rounds for months, no even original
		
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There's very very little on this entire thread that's original mate. You could whittle it down to about 5 posts and no one would notice.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			There's very very little on this entire thread that's original mate. You could whittle it down to about 5 posts and no one would notice.
		
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Yep, if I hear the Golf club analogy one more time I think Iâ€™m gonna kill everyone in this store and put a bullet in my brain ( 40 year old virgin...pan thread reply!ðŸ˜)


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## jp5 (Nov 24, 2018)

May appearing to buy off Eurosceptics with knighthoods to vote for her deal is... not a good look. Is this what it's come to?


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## Foxholer (Nov 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I used RR as an example of skilled people in this country, we still have a good stock in manufacturing and they're not all imported.  Another low volume ,highly skilled workforce is just down the road from me at Morgan Cars, they have a very highly skilled workforce and still have the people that can turn out these cars where much is made by hand. Again their skilled workforce is mainly made up from local people who have been train as apprentices in the factory.  I have worked with very expert tool making companies all over the UK that turn out tooling for a wide range of technologies from Plastic/aluminium extrusion dies to press tools for high production runs. I could go on with others like Renishaw who manufacture high numbers of specialised probing and metrology  systems that make high production manufacturing possible.  Please dont write off the UK as a capable manufacturer.
		
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Rolls Royce isn't the ideal example, being German (BMW) owned and subject to the whims of that company! Aston Martin, as suggested by Harpo is not really a good example either - only becoming really profitable (and reliable!) when using Mercedes engines! For some time before that, manufacturing was outsourced to an Austrian company! But at least it's now a UK PLC!
Morgan employees may be 'hghly skilled' but they (quite deliberately) only produce about 3-4 cars per day and, again, do not build their engines! Many of the skills Morgan employees possess have have been replaced, in high volume assembly plants, by robots! 

A better 'example' (of vehicle, though not car manufacturing) would likely be JCB, whose owner is a distinct advocate of leaving the EU. A hefty fine for breaking EU trade laws might have something to do with that approach! Another strong manufacturing advocate in favour of leaving is James Dyson, though whether that approach is altruistic or selfish is perhaps debatable - he's certainly happy to 'go offshore' whenever it suits!

There are certainly niche areas where UK is a world leader. But my impression continues to be that that trail-blazing is not harnessed as well as it could/should be - except in the Financial Services area.


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2018)

jp5 said:



			May appearing to buy off Eurosceptics with knighthoods to vote for her deal is... not a good look. Is this what it's come to?
		
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At present only one Eurosceptic MP has been honoured. I can't find anymore. I don't think one MP is going to make any difference to the result of the vote. As it currently stands, I see this as just spin.

As to the honours system; I think its long since passed the day of being honourable the way each party looks to load the Lords. If they're handing out honours for people doing their job there's plenty of people who've done a full day down the pit, or on the docks, or in the steel works just as deserving.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			I am sure you can ... but can they deliver 20k components a week baring in mind they will have ones out of tolerance so the builds will be bigger?
		
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I just don't follow your thinking here. Why do you think UK engineering are not capable of producing components just like countries in the Eu and why should the Defect rate be any different, they would be manufactured on the same CNC machine tools where the failure rate is insignificant.
I fail to comprehend people set on rubbishing UK ability as if we are a nation of idiots.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I just don't follow your thinking here. Why do you think UK engineering are not capable of producing components just like countries in the Eu and why should the Defect rate be any different, they would be manufactured on the same CNC machine tools where the failure rate is insignificant.
I fail to comprehend people set on rubbishing UK ability as if we are a nation of idiots.
		
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Because it takes skill to get to low defect rates and hit high capacities ... something your over looking.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 24, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Rolls Royce isn't the ideal example, being German (BMW) owned and subject to the whims of that company! Aston Martin, as suggested by Harpo is not really a good example either - only becoming really profitable (and reliable!) when using Mercedes engines! For some time before that, manufacturing was outsourced to an Austrian company! But at least it's now a UK PLC!
Morgan employees may be 'hghly skilled' but they (quite deliberately) only produce about 3-4 cars per day and, again, do not build their engines! Many of the skills Morgan employees possess have have been replaced, in high volume assembly plants, by robots!

A better 'example' (of vehicle, though not car manufacturing) would likely be JCB, whose owner is a distinct advocate of leaving the EU. A hefty fine for breaking EU trade laws might have something to do with that approach! Another strong manufacturing advocate in favour of leaving is James Dyson, though whether that approach is altruistic or selfish is perhaps debatable - he's certainly happy to 'go offshore' whenever it suits!

There are certainly niche areas where UK is a world leader. But my impression continues to be that that trail-blazing is not harnessed as well as it could/should be - except in the Financial Services area.
		
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Triumph Motorcycles are an excellent example of a British manufacturer combining industry leading technology with quality production.


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Because it takes skill to get to low defect rates and hit high capacities ... something your over looking.
		
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No one would ever start up a business with that attitude. Every new manufacturer has had to start from a zero position. Mini wouldn't be starting from a zero position. As much as there's a lot of truth earlier in your argument I disagree with your premise that it can't be done. Of course it can be done. There's been countless start ups that have succeeded. To be honest, it sounds like you're doing a Hogan. Blindly arguing a premise that just isn't true.


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## Foxholer (Nov 24, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			Triumph Motorcycles are an excellent example of a British manufacturer combining industry leading technology with quality production.
		
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Indeed!

A British bike that doesn't leak oil! Must be the Japanese approach to Quality/Participation!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 24, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed!

A British bike that doesn't leak oil! Must be the Japanese approach to Quality/Participation!
		
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No. Merely the benefit of investing in the right machine tools, production methods and materials 

Couple those to a well trained,  skilled and motivated workforce and the right product is easily attainable. 

Trouble is that back I the so called glory days of the British motorcycle industry there was insufficient investment.


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			No one would ever start up a business with that attitude. Every new manufacturer has had to start from a zero position. Mini wouldn't be starting from a zero position. As much as there's a lot of truth earlier in your argument I disagree with your premise that it can't be done. Of course it can be done. There's been countless start ups that have succeeded. To be honest, it sounds like you're doing a Hogan. Blindly arguing a premise that just isn't true.
		
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I don't think he's saying that we aren't capable. Just that we aren't capable yet in enough numbers. I work with some skilled engineers. I'm currently in the process of trying to recruit another one. It's almost impossible without paying over Â£40k plus (in the NW). 

If you're a decent Engineer at the moment then you can pick and choose your workplace. We simply haven't invested in the training because we've had cheaper options abroad. It'll be 10 years before that imbalance will be even close to being addressed.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Because it takes skill to get to low defect rates and hit high capacities ... something your over looking.
		
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Again I fail to see what point you are making. Is it that people in the UK are not able to achieve these skills because if it is you are deluded and I just fail to see how you can come to such a conclusion.  High batch component machining is very much an automated process these days. FMS use automated work handling, CNC machine tool turn out components to exactly the same form and fit every time unless there is a tool failure of mechanical breakdown which is very rare, tool monitoring systems constantly check wear on tooling and carry out tool changes before the tool fails, probing devices check the part in process and adjust tool offsets automatically.

What exactly are these skills you suggest are necessary to hit low defect rates. Maybe you can elaborate as I fail to understand your line of thinking.


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## Foxholer (Nov 24, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			No. Merely the benefit of investing in the right machine tools, production methods and materials

Couple those to a *well trained,  skilled and motivated workforce* and the right product is easily attainable.

Trouble is that back I the so called glory days of the British motorcycle industry there was insufficient investment.
		
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I'm pretty sure that Triumph apply much of the Japanese approach to 'continual improvement' - like I saw/participated in at Honda Swindon many moons ago. Not particularly 'natural', at least initially, for Brits/Anglo-Saxon types, but did work.

Getting the right 'culture' is extremely important! Communication is an essential part of that!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I don't think he's saying that we aren't capable. Just that we aren't capable yet in enough numbers. I work with some skilled engineers. I'm currently in the process of trying to recruit another one. It's almost impossible without paying over Â£40k plus (in the NW).

If you're a decent Engineer at the moment then you can pick and choose your workplace. We simply haven't invested in the training because we've had cheaper options abroad. It'll be 10 years before that imbalance will be even close to being addressed.
		
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When you say "Engineer" what type of engineer are you referring to?   Do you mean professional engineers or tradesmen.   Consider companies like Triumph Motorcycles  , Honda UK, Nissan, JLR etc, these companies dont have problems with skilled labour, they train staff just like companies do in the EU.     Would you consider an engineer  to be worth less than Â£40k


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			When you say "Engineer" what type of engineer are you referring to?   Do you mean professional engineers or tradesmen.   Consider companies like Triumph Motorcycles  , Honda UK, Nissan, JLR etc, these companies dont have problems with skilled labour, they train staff just like companies do in the EU.     Would you consider an engineer  to be worth less than Â£40k
		
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I mean professional Engineers. And they are worth whatever the going rate is, which in these parts is Â£35k upwards.

And with regards to training, yes, those companies do. However, most don't.


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I don't think he's saying that we aren't capable. Just that we aren't capable yet in enough numbers. I work with some skilled engineers. I'm currently in the process of trying to recruit another one. It's almost impossible without paying over Â£40k plus (in the NW).

If you're a decent Engineer at the moment then you can pick and choose your workplace. We simply haven't invested in the training because we've had cheaper options abroad. It'll be 10 years before that imbalance will be even close to being addressed.
		
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Immigration is the answer. Every time immigration has been discussed its been about targeted immigration. A qualified engineer with Seat in Spain is on â‚¬26k-â‚¬28k. That's Â£23.5k. Offer them Â£30k = â‚¬33.5k.


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Immigration is the answer. Every time immigration has been discussed its been about targeted immigration. A qualified engineer with Seat in Spain is on â‚¬26k-â‚¬28k. That's Â£23.5k. Offer them Â£30k = â‚¬33.5k.
		
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But that brings other problems. The answer can't be to import skills. That's what appears to have caused a significant amount of discord over the last 20 years. The importing of Nurses/Doctors into the NHS has been routinely pilloried on this very thread. 

Now we're saying that we should be taking other countries skilled engineers. It's a circular argument that doesn't appear to make a lot of sense.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2018)

MetalMickie said:



			Triumph Motorcycles are an excellent example of a British manufacturer combining industry leading technology with quality production.
		
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And producing the product abroad; 2 factories in the UK, 1 in Brazil & 3 in Thailand.


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			But that brings other problems. The answer can't be to import skills. That's what appears to have caused a significant amount of discord over the last 20 years. The importing of Nurses/Doctors into the NHS has been routinely pilloried on this very thread.

Now we're saying that we should be taking other countries skilled engineers. It's a circular argument that doesn't appear to make a lot of sense.
		
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I don't disagree with you, and ultimately its about training 'our' next generation. But we're not taking them, they are choosing come for a better life. We don't turn up off the coast of Barcelona like vikings.


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I don't disagree with you, and ultimately its about training 'our' next generation. But we're not taking them, they are choosing come for a better life. We don't turn up off the coast of Barcelona like vikings.
		
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Could we do that? ðŸ˜‚

If we really want to train our next generation then we really need to look at how we fund our Universities. There aren't enough Engineering places to fill the gaps.


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Could we do that? ðŸ˜‚

If we really want to train our next generation then we really need to look at how we fund our Universities. There aren't enough Engineering places to fill the gaps.
		
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Totally off topic but we've had two large inflatables land here in the early hours in Mojacar in the last week - there's 40 potential engineers from Africa


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 24, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			And producing the product abroad; 2 factories in the UK, 1 in Brazil & 3 in Thailand.
		
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That is true of just about every volume mfrs in cars or bikes.

In how many countries do VW, for example, produce?


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## Old Skier (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Could we do that? ðŸ˜‚

If we really want to train our next generation then we really need to look at how we fund our Universities. There aren't enough Engineering places to fill the gaps.
		
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Why do you expect funding for this, when this country had a skilled workforce it was when the company's had proper apprenticeship and didn't really on colleges and universities to do all the heavy lifting.

It looks like firms want a ready made workforce and aren't willing to pay for good training.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I mean professional Engineers. And they are worth whatever the going rate is, which in these parts is Â£35k upwards.

And with regards to training, yes, those companies do. However, most don't.
		
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Professional Engineers always have been expensive but they are in most cases graduates with science degrees.   In production engineering they tend to be involved in design, quality and production process. The automation and robotics in the manufacturing process has deskilled the shop floor operatives more to the level of machine setters and operators.  There are still many highly skilled machinists but they tend to be in the smaller jobbing shops and toolmaking  industry.


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Why do you expect funding for this, when this country had a skilled workforce it was when the company's had proper apprenticeship and didn't really on colleges and universities to do all the heavy lifting.

It looks like firms want a ready made workforce and aren't willing to pay for good training.
		
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Well then let's change the system. Companies should hire 18yr olds and pay for them to attend University. Or ensure proper apprenticeships are available. We haven't done this for many years because we've concentrated on short term gain. It's why our economy is fragile. There are not enough skills underpinning it. We've become the masters of enriching the shareholders at the expense of the Workers.


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Professional Engineers always have been expensive but they are in most cases graduates with science degrees.   In production engineering they tend to be involved in design, quality and production process. The automation and robotics in the manufacturing process has deskilled the shop floor operatives more to the level of machine setters and operators.  There are still many highly skilled machinists but they tend to be in the smaller jobbing shops and toolmaking  industry.
		
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And how long do you think it will take to redress that balance? Can we do it quickly enough to ensure that we don't lose our competitive edge?


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## Old Skier (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Well then let's change the system. Companies should hire 18yr olds and pay for them to attend University. Or ensure proper apprenticeships are available. We haven't done this for many years because we've concentrated on short term gain. It's why our economy is fragile. There are not enough skills underpinning it. We've become the masters of enriching the shareholders at the expense of the Workers.
		
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I would prefer to see high grade apprenticeships like RR do, gives an apprentice a proper goal with the opportunity of a good well paid job.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			And how long do you think it will take to redress that balance? Can we do it quickly enough to ensure that we don't lose our competitive edge?
		
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We need to sell Engineering as a top profession, many see it as a mucky oily rad job.  In Germany an Engineer is held in the same esteem as a doctor or solicitor.  We need to attract investment in the tools and plant that can compete in manufacturing, thats why I want us to be an independant state who can decide how we invest public money to create jobs that give people a worthwhile career rather than purchasing from abroad an encouraging our young to fester on benefits.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 24, 2018)

https://m.facebook.com/stanw2?ref=o...&ref=opera_for_android_speed_dial&__tn__=*s-R


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



https://m.facebook.com/stanw2?ref=opera_for_android_speed_dial#!/story.php?story_fbid=528615510938332&id=406437063156178&refid=17&ref=opera_for_android_speed_dial&__tn__=*s-R

Click to expand...

ðŸ¤”


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			We need to sell Engineering as a top profession, many see it as a mucky oily rad job.  In Germany an Engineer is held in the same esteem as a doctor or solicitor.  We need to attract investment in the tools and plant that can compete in manufacturing, thats why I want us to be an independant state who can decide how we invest public money to create jobs that give people a worthwhile career rather than purchasing from abroad an encouraging our young to fester on benefits.
		
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I'm really not sure how being in the EU stops us doing that? If we just start expecting more manufacturing in this Country then the costs of buying those goods are going to sky rocket. We can't compete unless there's downward pressure on wages. I'm not sure that's what people signed up to.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I'm really not sure how being in the EU stops us doing that? If we just start expecting more manufacturing in this Country then the costs of buying those goods are going to sky rocket. We can't compete unless there's downward pressure on wages. I'm not sure that's what people signed up to.
		
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Is it cheaper to purchase a widget from abroad and keep a uk person on benefits.  Im not really levelling this with the EU but the way we have slashed investment in manufacturing and dumped so many meaningful jobs while  creating zero hours, minimum wage jobs for our young people.  I dont think you could sell your theory to Germany.


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Is it cheaper to purchase a widget from abroad and keep a uk person on benefits.  Im not really levelling this with the EU but the way we have slashed investment in manufacturing and dumped so many meaningful jobs while  creating zero hours, minimum wage jobs for our young people.  I dont think you could sell your theory to Germany.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ Being half German, I have some idea of how they think. 

They prioritise Company based learning in a way that we do not. They value skills in a way that we do not. They embrace a culture of robust manufacturing, not throwaway tat. 

We are a long long way from being like the Germans. We have a system where the gap between the richest and the poorest is larger than almost anywhere else in the West. We currently follow an economic model that doesn't work. 

We can rebuild and become a strong manufacturing country, but not without some significant change.


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			ðŸ˜‚ Being half German, I have some idea of how they think.

They prioritise Company based learning in a way that we do not. They value skills in a way that we do not. They embrace a culture of robust manufacturing, not throwaway tat.

We are a long long way from being like the Germans. We have a system where the gap between the richest and the poorest is larger than almost anywhere else in the West. We currently follow an economic model that doesn't work.

We can rebuild and become a strong manufacturing country, but not without some significant change.
		
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Can't disagree with any of that. But I would add, having worked for a German company for the last 20 years, they're not always as efficient as people think. They also struggle when something falls outside of process. Lastly, they pay pretty much the same as we do in the UK.

As to wages being so disparate. State pension in the UK, for such a high performing economy, are exceptionally poor.


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Can't disagree with any of that. But I would add, having worked for a German company for the last 20 years, they're not always as efficient as people think. They also struggle when something falls outside of process. Lastly, they pay pretty much the same as we do in the UK.

As to wages being so disparate. State pension in the UK, for such a high performing economy, are exceptionally poor.
		
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I did some work with Koenig and Bower, installing a new press line. You are exactly right about how they react when something falls outside an existing process. They appear to have the problem solving thought processes trained out of them. They can be a bit one dimensional at times. It's why I liked working with them. You could really freak them out just by performing a task in a different way.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 24, 2018)

Big business missed a trick in the run up to the vote... Instead of bleating how hard done they would be with exit... They should have got themselves a big bus and had writ down the side... Vote remain and we will invest 350M more a year in apprenticeships...


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## drdel (Nov 24, 2018)

I'd like to remind all those who are moaning about the quality of our engineers that the home of Formula 1 is here in the UK


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			ðŸ˜‚ Being half German, I have some idea of how they think.

They prioritise Company based learning in a way that we do not. They value skills in a way that we do not. They embrace a culture of robust manufacturing, not throwaway tat.

We are a long long way from being like the Germans. We have a system where the gap between the richest and the poorest is larger than almost anywhere else in the West. We currently follow an economic model that doesn't work.

We can rebuild and become a strong manufacturing country, but not without some significant change.
		
Click to expand...

We had a sister company in Stuttgart where I spent a number of years working  assisting them become established. I love it there and regretted not accepting their offer to work for them at twice my uk salary.  While there I developed some specialist manufacturing software for Robert Bosch, Mercedes and WMF, they were very progressive but also very demanding in quality and timescales, very similar to the Japanese companies I worked with.  I made some great friends in Germany.


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## Old Skier (Nov 24, 2018)

Either of you have access to a decent currywurst


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Either of you have access to a decent currywurst 

Click to expand...

Not currently, but I'm hoping to get back to Lubeck at some point next year. I'll take some pics of me eating one if you want? ðŸ˜‰


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## bluewolf (Nov 24, 2018)

drdel said:



			I'd like to remind all those who are moaning about the quality of our engineers that the home of Formula 1 is here in the UK
		
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No ones saying we're not capable. We're saying that there aren't enough.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Either of you have access to a decent currywurst 

Click to expand...

I have eaten Wurst


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## IanM (Nov 24, 2018)

drdel said:



			I'd like to remind all those who are moaning about the quality of our engineers that the home of Formula 1 is here in the UK
		
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...and Honda fly Japanese technicians to Swindon for training!


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## Old Skier (Nov 24, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Not currently, but I'm hoping to get back to Lubeck at some point next year. I'll take some pics of me eating one if you want? ðŸ˜‰
		
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Hopefully HID gets a place in the Berlin Marathon as they do nice ones just outside the airport main door.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Hopefully HID gets a place in the Berlin Marathon as they do nice ones just outside the airport main door.
		
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How about a nice Jaeger Schnitzel


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## bobmac (Nov 25, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			How about a nice Jaeger Schnitzel
		
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https://thegermanbakery.co.uk/epage...-df07-4569-9d7b-95135fa6c5e6/Products/GBW0160

https://thegermanbakery.co.uk/epage...-9d7b-95135fa6c5e6/Categories/Meats/Bratwurst


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 25, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Not currently, but I'm hoping to get back to Lubeck at some point next year. I'll take some pics of me eating one if you want? ðŸ˜‰
		
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I think there are websites for that on the dark web


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Well then let's change the system. Companies should hire 18yr olds and pay for them to attend University. Or ensure proper apprenticeships are available. We haven't done this for many years because we've concentrated on short term gain. It's why our economy is fragile. There are not enough skills underpinning it. We've become the masters of enriching the shareholders at the expense of the Workers.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, I am old enough to remember apprenticeships.
Good training is the answer to successful businesses, we seem to have forgotten that in Britain


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2018)

The EU have this morning agreed the Brexit withdrawal agreement also known as the Theresa May capitulation document. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few weeks and if it gets past the vote in the UK parliament. I don't know how it has any chance of being passed with it being so roundly criticised by both sides of the argument. 

Which does also raise questions on how there could be a Peoples Vote. What would the question be? It would need to be a binary choice but couldn't be accept the agreement/remain and equally couldn't be accept the agreement/no deal so what would it be?

I think for Brexiteers the biggest indicator that the agreement is Brexit in name only is that SiLH isn't vehemently opposed to it and seems to have adopted a position of quiet acceptance. As one of the most vocal opponents of Brexit he's not been very critical of the negotiated deal which should be raising red flags for Leave voters.

Also saw an interesting point raised by a Leave supporting MP. Almost everything that the EU wanted is contained in the Brexit withdrawal agreement which is legally enforceable. Almost everything the UK wanted is in the future roadmap document which isn't legally enforceable. No idea how true that is but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 25, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			The EU have this morning agreed the Brexit withdrawal agreement also known as the Theresa May capitulation document.* It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few weeks and if it gets past the vote in the UK parliament. *I don't know how it has any chance of being passed with it being so roundly criticised by both sides of the argument.

Which does also raise questions on how there could be a Peoples Vote. What would the question be? It would need to be a binary choice but couldn't be accept the agreement/remain and equally couldn't be accept the agreement/no deal so what would it be?

I think for Brexiteers the biggest indicator that the agreement is Brexit in name only is that SiLH isn't vehemently opposed to it and seems to have adopted a position of quiet acceptance. As one of the most vocal opponents of Brexit he's not been very critical of the negotiated deal which should be raising red flags for Leave voters.

Also saw an interesting point raised by a Leave supporting MP. Almost everything that the EU wanted is contained in the Brexit withdrawal agreement which is legally enforceable. Almost everything the UK wanted is in the future roadmap document which isn't legally enforceable. No idea how true that is but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.
		
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I sincerely hope it doesn't; everything I have heard mirrors what you have posted and it seems worse than staying in or leaving with No Deal.  Our political masters really do see to have made a complete dog's dinner of negotiating the deal if this is the solution we are stuck with.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 25, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Either of you have access to a decent currywurst 

Click to expand...

The German Shop, London, also sells on line.


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## Foxholer (Nov 25, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			I sincerely hope it doesn't; everything I have heard mirrors what you have posted and it seems worse than staying in or leaving with No Deal.  Our political masters really do see to have made a complete dog's dinner of negotiating the deal if this is the solution we are stuck with.
		
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Totally agree!

An absolutely pigs ear of an agreement!

'No Deal' would be far more acceptable!


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2018)

Tony Blair saying that there should be a 2nd referendum and appears to be suggesting that the question should be "Do you still want the UK to leave the EU now we know what the deal is"? Even as someone that wants us to stay in the EU that question seems a bit loaded towards Remain. Blair also said that both sides should agree that whatever the result it should be binding for at least a generation. I'm not sure if that is an actual generation or an SNP generation. I guess it will depend on the result.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 25, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Tony Blair saying that there should be a 2nd referendum and appears to be suggesting that the question should be "Do you still want the UK to leave the EU now we know what the deal is"? Even as someone that wants us to stay in the EU that question seems a bit loaded towards Remain. Blair also said that both sides should agree that whatever the result it should be binding for at least a generation. I'm not sure if that is an actual generation or an SNP generation. I guess it will depend on the result.
		
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I note he appears to avoid the option of do you want to leave on this deal or no deal...


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## MegaSteve (Nov 25, 2018)

The total arrogance of the political classes who believe this is a document worthy of the people who took the trouble to engage in the process and vote...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2018)

drdel said:



			I'd like to remind all those who are moaning about the quality of our engineers that the home of Formula 1 is here in the UK
		
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I wonder how many of those top engineers were trained in the UK.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 25, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I wonder how many of those top engineers were trained in the UK.
		
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Are your ears burningðŸ˜...... https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/trolling.99524/page-6


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 25, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I wonder how many of those top engineers were trained in the UK.
		
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Plenty - play golf with a good number of people who work for Red Bull and a few others in Silverstone and a good deal amount of the design and engineering team are from the UK and educated in the UK


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			The EU have this morning agreed the Brexit withdrawal agreement also known as the Theresa May capitulation document. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few weeks and if it gets past the vote in the UK parliament. I don't know how it has any chance of being passed with it being so roundly criticised by both sides of the argument.

Which does also raise questions on how there could be a Peoples Vote. What would the question be? It would need to be a binary choice but couldn't be accept the agreement/remain and equally couldn't be accept the agreement/no deal so what would it be?

I think for Brexiteers the biggest indicator that the agreement is Brexit in name only is that SiLH isn't vehemently opposed to it and seems to have adopted a position of quiet acceptance. As one of the most vocal opponents of Brexit he's not been very critical of the negotiated deal which should be raising red flags for Leave voters.

Also saw an interesting point raised by a Leave supporting MP. Almost everything that the EU wanted is contained in the Brexit withdrawal agreement which is legally enforceable. Almost everything the UK wanted is in the future roadmap document which isn't legally enforceable. No idea how true that is but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.
		
Click to expand...

I think the deal is as good as it could be but still grim - pretty much what was predicted by the Remain camp at the very outset and indeed before the vote -  and so I'd reject it.  But of course any and all suggestion that we might well end up exactly where we are today with the Withdrawal Agreement that we have today were met by cries of Project Fear.  And so it has come to pass. 

Meanwhile the most vocal opponents of the deal on the Leave side of the argument have yet to put forward their alternative...an alternative that they couldn't agree on before the vote and so hardly surprising they don't ave one now - other than something they call Canada +++ whatever the heck that is - because just as Brexit means Brexit is meaningless - Canada +++ is meaningless until it is defined.  We did not vote to Remain or for Canada +++.  Yet still they call for a new PM to go back t the EU to renegotiate.  Just meaningless pie-in-the-sky, never going to happen. 

And as far as complaints over the 'Future Outline Deal' - the 26 pages of non-binding intention - well what did we expect at this point?  After all from Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty...

_A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.  _

I think that this is pretty much exactly where we have got to.  We have a Withdrawal Agreement with a non-binding framework for a future relationship.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Totally agree!

An absolutely pigs ear of an agreement!

'*No Deal' would be far more acceptable*!
		
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Depends what you want or what you might deem acceptable to inflict on the country


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 25, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			The total arrogance of the political classes who believe this is a document worthy of the people who took the trouble to engage in the process and vote...
		
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Well the Leave campaign should have set out out clearly before the vote exactly what they would have wanted to have at the conclusion of the negotiations.  But they didn't because they had no consistent and coherent view that would stand up to any detailed scrutiny.  So they avoided that risk by just ignoring it.  And we are today will *still *no alternative withdrawal agreement.  And No Deal is not a negotiated agreement.


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## USER1999 (Nov 25, 2018)

No deal gives options, this deal does not. This is an absolutely appalling deal, which ties the UK to the EU in perpetuity, a bit like a life time of slavery. No deal can lead to negotiations later, this does not. This is the rubbish you get leaving a remainer, May  in charge of leaving. Awful. I would rather stay than have this rubbish deal. 

May be that is the whole point of it.

Seriously, the 5th largest economy in the world needs to be a slave?


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think the deal is as good as it could be but still grim - pretty much what was predicted by the Remain camp at the very outset and indeed before the vote -  and so I'd reject it.  But of course any and all suggestion that we might well end up exactly where we are today with the Withdrawal Agreement that we have today were met by cries of Project Fear.  And so it has come to pass.

Meanwhile the most vocal opponents of the deal on the Leave side of the argument have yet to put forward their alternative...an alternative that they couldn't agree on before the vote and so hardly surprising they don't ave one now - other than something they call Canada +++ whatever the heck that is - because just as Brexit means Brexit is meaningless - Canada +++ is meaningless until it is defined.  We did not vote to Remain or for Canada +++.  Yet still they call for a new PM to go back t the EU to renegotiate.  Just meaningless pie-in-the-sky, never going to happen.

And as far as complaints over the 'Future Outline Deal' - the 26 pages of non-binding intention - well what did we expect at this point?  After all from Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty...

_A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.  _

I think that this is pretty much exactly where we have got to.  We have a Withdrawal Agreement with a non-binding framework for a future relationship.
		
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If you'd been following it all closely you would know that the term "Canada +++" was made by *Donald Tusk*, and the pluses related to 3 *defined* things that Tusk offered.

EDIT: and David Davis wanted to say yes to the Canada +++ deal when it was offered in December last year. 

Does seem ironic that for someone who has been following every single breath of Brexit you didn't know. Are you following it at all or just shouting "I don't want Brexit" whilst stamping your foot?


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## Old Skier (Nov 25, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well the Leave campaign should have set out out clearly before the vote exactly what they would have wanted to have at the conclusion of the negotiations.  But they didn't because they had no consistent and coherent view that would stand up to any detailed scrutiny.  So they avoided that risk by just ignoring it.  And we are today will *still *no alternative withdrawal agreement.  And No Deal is not a negotiated agreement.
		
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I voted to leave the EU, not to negotiate a deal. I am though, quite agreeable to an agreement where there are agreeable and equal benefits for both sides.


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## Slime (Nov 25, 2018)

Let's just leave.
Europe have our address, let them get in touch with us.


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I wonder how many of those top engineers were trained in the UK.
		
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You are determined to 'put-down' anything non-Scottish and everything British: you're chip-on-shoulder blinkers on again. The vast majority... from the top of my head, here's a few Universities who specialise...

Birmingham
Cranfeild (Post Grad)
Imperial
Loughborough
Warwick

Cosworth Engineering have been training apprentices for over 5 decades in the area and supply advice to major manufacturers - Mercedes included!


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## Hobbit (Nov 25, 2018)

drdel said:



			You are determined to 'put-down' anything non-Scottish and everything British: you're chip-on-shoulder blinkers on again. The vast majority... from the top of my head, here's a few Universities who specialise...

Birmingham
Cranfeild (Post Grad)
Imperial
Loughborough
Warwick

Cosworth Engineering have been training apprentices for over 5 decades in the area and supply advice to major manufacturers - Mercedes included!
		
Click to expand...

From what remember, going back to the late 70's pretty much every uni and tech college received sponsorship from big industries, and even tailored their courses to big local industries. In recent years the company I worked for used to visit the local uni and, with the aid of lecturers, set up industry specific assignments. I could go on but whats the point? Everyone know the UK is clueless when it comes to industry supporting eduction.


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## Old Skier (Nov 25, 2018)

NSFW




__ https://www.facebook.com/223073124987666/posts/283212785640366


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I wonder how many of those top engineers were trained in the UK.
		
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And why exactly do you wonder that. I put it to you that you are just trolling for a reaction.


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## IainP (Nov 25, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			...........

Also saw an interesting point raised by a Leave supporting MP. Almost everything that the EU wanted is contained in the Brexit withdrawal agreement which is legally enforceable. Almost everything the UK wanted is in the future roadmap document which isn't legally enforceable. No idea how true that is but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.
		
Click to expand...

I'll openly admit I have not been following the detail closely, but I was wondering about this. Might May and her team by selling the idea of leaving with what is considered by most not a great deal, but then once "out", start to move the goalposts, and when the EU kick up a fuss, "well we are not part of your club now". If this were to happen obviously there would be ramifications, but they may be more manageable.


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## Foxholer (Nov 25, 2018)

drdel said:



			I'd like to remind all those who are moaning about the quality of our engineers that the home of Formula 1 is here in the UK
		
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Probably more about geography than technology!

Though UK should definitely be 'harvesting' the benifits of that!

Any actual examples of such benefits from such 'harvesting'?

While F1 might be something of a 'crown' for several hundred workers, it's by no means what is really needed for the vast majority of hundreds of thousands of 'normal' workers all around the country!

And it's those workers that the Government should really be doing their damndest to both keep in work and provide conditions (both personal and via company incentives) to 'improve their lot'!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 26, 2018)

Support me and my draft Brexit deal or it could result in a no Brexit deal says our desperate PM.

Ooooo that's a toughy Teresa


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2018)

No problem according to same, end of the world according to others. Your point being?


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2018)

F1 producing more technology and saftey to modern day motoring and someone fails to see the advantages of its workforce.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 26, 2018)

Can't we just agree we have some very advanced engineering and manufacturing skills and capabilities in this country.  However due to global economic changes and government policy over the last few decades we are now relying heavily on services to shore up our economy, especially financial services.  So whilst in theory it would be great if we could become a beacon of manufacturing excellence that will sustain our economy, in reality, due to the way our economy has now evolved, unfortunately manufacturing will only ever play a relatively niche role.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 26, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can't we just agree we have some very advanced engineering and manufacturing skills and capabilities in this country.  However due to global economic changes and government policy over the last few decades we are now relying heavily on services to shore up our economy, especially financial services.  So whilst in theory it would be great if we could become a beacon of manufacturing excellence that will sustain our economy, in reality, due to the way our economy has now evolved, unfortunately manufacturing will only ever play a relatively niche role.
		
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I'd agree with this. The problem is most bulk mfr goes to cheap labour locations. We can do the design, small and medium sized builds and manufacturing where being near to market makes sense. Everything else chases the lowest wage rates. Sad but true.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd agree with this. The problem is most bulk mfr goes to cheap labour locations. We can do the design, small and medium sized builds and manufacturing where being near to market makes sense. Everything else chases the lowest wage rates. Sad but true.
		
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I agree with that. the point I was trying to make was whether chasing the lowest wage rate is ultimately in our benefit. When you consider how it removes worthwhile jobs that would have been done by people with lower education achievements such that these people have to be supported by the state or do jobs on zero hours and minimum wage. Also we would be reducing our balance of trade deficit.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 26, 2018)

drdel said:



			You are determined to 'put-down' anything non-Scottish and everything British: you're chip-on-shoulder blinkers on again. The vast majority... from the top of my head, here's a few Universities who specialise...

Birmingham
Cranfeild (Post Grad)
Imperial
Loughborough
Warwick

Cosworth Engineering have been training apprentices for over 5 decades in the area and supply advice to major manufacturers - Mercedes included!
		
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, if I am a supporter of Scottish Independence I would naturally be against most Westminster [British] politics.
Nice list of well funded English Midlands car industry supporting universities.
Pity we have no car industry in Scotland.
Probably the fault of the SNP for the last 70 years.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 26, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree with that. the point I was trying to make was whether chasing the lowest wage rate is ultimately in our benefit. When you consider how it removes worthwhile jobs that would have been done by people with lower education achievements such that these people have to be supported by the state or do jobs on zero hours and minimum wage. Also we would be reducing our balance of trade deficit.
		
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I imagine chasing the lowest wage rate is not in the interest of UK PLC but is very much in the interest of companies answerable to shareholders, especially the big ones who can switch to different labour markets relatively easily.  Who are increasingly controlling large parts of the world's economies.  And that's without the spectre of automation of a lot of repetitive roles which I personally believe has had a minor but not insignificant impact on the make up of the jobs market and also fed into the recent disillusion of those who used to have traditional jobs that machines have replaced. And it will have a much more significant one in the future. 

Whilst I agree that we should still be a country that can produce high quality engineers and engineered products, we also need to think how we will compete in a gig economy automated world. And I'm not hearing a lot of that from many at the moment in this debate. Although to be fair to TMay, I think I heard her say something about this somewhere recently.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2018)

OK - so if we go No Deal and onto WTO rules for imports and exports.  Putting aside what doing that would actually mean - what happens to *everything els*e covered in the the Withdrawal Agreement that is not 'trade' (noting what the 't' in WTO stands for i.e. World *Trade *Organisation).  

So just taking one most very important example - covered by Article 13 and subsequent related Articles - _Residency_.  No Deal I assume means no agreement on what happens in respect of everything covered by the Withdrawal Agreement - so no agreement on residency.  Then what?  Diddly squat to do with Trade.  And then on and on go the Articles in the Agreement - with few to do with Trade and nothing to do with the WTO.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			If you'd been following it all closely you would know that the term "Canada +++" was made by *Donald Tusk*, and the pluses related to 3 *defined* things that Tusk offered.

EDIT: and David Davis wanted to say yes to the Canada +++ deal when it was offered in December last year.

Does seem ironic that for someone who has been following every single breath of Brexit you didn't know. Are you following it at all or just shouting "I don't want Brexit" whilst stamping your foot?
		
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If it was offered to Davis why didn't he accept it?  He was in charge?  Methinks NI/EI border control and Tory party subservience to the DUP ruled it out as an Option.  Besides - what Tusk post vote defined for Canada +++ is irrelevant to the vote as it wasn't defined *before *the vote so we could not have voted for it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can't we just agree we have some very advanced engineering and manufacturing skills and capabilities in this country.  However due to global economic changes and government policy over the last few decades we are now relying heavily on services to shore up our economy, especially financial services.  So whilst in theory it would be great if we could become a beacon of manufacturing excellence that will sustain our economy, in reality, due to the way our economy has now evolved, unfortunately manufacturing will only ever play a relatively niche role.
		
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Nice try but I fear there is little point in shining the light of realism on the aspirations and blue-sky-thinking of some Leave voters...


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## MegaSteve (Nov 26, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just to clarify, if I am a supporter of Scottish Independence I would naturally be against most Westminster [British] politics.
Nice list of well funded English Midlands car industry supporting universities.
Pity we have no car industry in Scotland.
Probably the fault of the SNP for the last 70 years. 

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According to many remain campaigners lack of industry is entirely down to a lazy local workforce...


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## Dellboy (Nov 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so if we go No Deal and onto WTO rules for imports and exports.  Putting aside what doing that would actually mean - what happens to *everything els*e covered in the the Withdrawal Agreement that is not 'trade' (noting what the 't' in WTO stands for i.e. World *Trade *Organisation). 

So just taking one most very important example - covered by Article 13 and subsequent related Articles - _Residency_.  No Deal I assume means no agreement on what happens in respect of everything covered by the Withdrawal Agreement - so no agreement on residency.  Then what?  Diddly squat to do with Trade.  And then on and on go the Articles in the Agreement - with few to do with Trade and nothing to do with the WTO.
		
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You do really need to stop listening to LBC, I know you believe everything the idiot  Oâ€™ Brien says, but he talks so much tosh itâ€™s laughable


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## Grant85 (Nov 26, 2018)

Tony Blair was on Marr yesterday. 

You forget how good he is as a political communicator - not that I ever voted for him - but there is a clear reason why he was one of the most successful politicians of our lifetime. Iraq war clearly being a huge failure and massive error of judgement. 

He made a very logical case for a new referendum - which is along the lines of what was promised has not been delivered to the winners, so what is the point of leaving? Also we now have a far clearer idea of what the Brexit available to us looks like, so it is reasonable to say that people can now make a more informed position and that people on both sides are far more likely to get behind the result of a new referendum - even if the result is close again. 

It was so clear and precise, you wonder what the Labour party are actually articulating themselves? They are a shambles of an opposition party and singularly failing to hold the government to account on the most important issue of the day. 

I appreciate Labour have a number of seats in coastal areas that are pro-Brexit and so they are trying to walk this tightrope between being all things to all men, but there comes a time when you have to come down on one side or the other.


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so if we go No Deal and onto WTO rules for imports and exports.  Putting aside what doing that would actually mean - what happens to *everything els*e covered in the the Withdrawal Agreement that is not 'trade' (noting what the 't' in WTO stands for i.e. World *Trade *Organisation). 

So just taking one most very important example - covered by Article 13 and subsequent related Articles - _Residency_.  No Deal I assume means no agreement on what happens in respect of everything covered by the Withdrawal Agreement - so no agreement on residency.  Then what?  Diddly squat to do with Trade.  And then on and on go the Articles in the Agreement - with few to do with Trade and nothing to do with the WTO.
		
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Why do you continue to go on about this deal or that deal. You like those remainers that have yet to accept the democratic result of the referendum would never accept a deal even if it was gold plated. Cable proved that today during the Politics show and Labour which the current deal is so close to there plan are still going to vote against it.

Any realist know that the political class and those that support them are doing everything that they can to derail any deal in the hope that Brexit will die.

PS: Any responce on the EU Army question yet as it looks more likely that Europe will be looking towards NATO dreckly.


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## Beezerk (Nov 26, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Tony Blair was on Marr yesterday. 

You forget how good he is as a political communicator - not that I ever voted for him - but there is a clear reason why he was one of the most successful politicians of our lifetime. Iraq war clearly being a huge failure and massive error of judgement. 

He made a very logical case for a new referendum - which is along the lines of what was promised has not been delivered to the winners, so what is the point of leaving? Also we now have a far clearer idea of what the Brexit available to us looks like, so it is reasonable to say that people can now make a more informed position and that people on both sides are far more likely to get behind the result of a new referendum - even if the result is close again. 

It was so clear and precise, you wonder what the Labour party are actually articulating themselves? They are a shambles of an opposition party and singularly failing to hold the government to account on the most important issue of the day. 

I appreciate Labour have a number of seats in coastal areas that are pro-Brexit and so they are trying to walk this tightrope between being all things to all men, but there comes a time when you have to come down on one side or the other.
		
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Tony Blair needs to keep his gob shut.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 26, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			I appreciate Labour have a number of seats in coastal areas that are pro-Brexit and so they are trying to walk this tightrope between being all things to all men, but there comes a time when you have to come down on one side or the other.
		
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It has been smart politics to shut up and let the Cons self destruct. A bit like a footballer who is out injured when the team are on a losing streak, you become better by doing nothing. You are right in that now they have to step up and play their cards but we will discover they are as split as the Conservatives on this. It will be interesting to see how many Labour MP's will back TM plan as they prefer it to No Deal. That has not really been talked about yet.


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## Foxholer (Nov 26, 2018)

Beezerk said:



			Tony Blair needs to keep his gob shut.
		
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He was/is a politician! So keeping his gob shut is never going to happen! 

He does communicate well though - but not as well as Bill Clinton!


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 26, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



*It has been smart politics to shut up and let the Cons self destruct. *A bit like a footballer who is out injured when the team are on a losing streak, you become better by doing nothing. You are right in that now they have to step up and play their cards but we will discover they are as split as the Conservatives on this. It will be interesting to see how many Labour MP's will back TM plan as they prefer it to No Deal. That has not really been talked about yet.
		
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Eye, trouble is that with the country as divided as it ever has been and a government in a mostly shambolic state of infighting, backbiting and internal chaos, all of which was self inflicted, labour are still behind in the polls.   As they are just as divided, Starmer and Corbyn saying opposing things etc etc.

We're long past the point of any politician looking at what is the best (or least worst now) scenario for the country as they are mostly now concerned about how this will play out politically and how they can ensure they benefit politically from it. And they are all at it from every party.  There may well be many Labour MPs who think this deal is as good as we will get, but will vote against as that will increase the chances of a general election.

I can totally understand why some people have a desire to take back control, but honestly, if this lot are the best of the bunch that will be taking control after a potentially 'hard Brexit' then god help us.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 26, 2018)

Blair was a great communicator...
It was delivery of promises he was poor at...


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just to clarify, if I am a supporter of Scottish Independence I would naturally be against most Westminster [British] politics.
Nice list of well funded English Midlands car industry supporting universities.
		
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Â£1.5Bn spent on engineering defense shipping projects in Scotland this year while shipbuilding in N Devon has suffered.

Shame you can't acknowledge the good work the Westminister government is doing for Scottish shipbuilding while the rest of the U.K. suffers.

Source: Defence Questions know.


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Blair was a great communicator...
It was delivery of promises he was poor at...
		
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That's politicians for you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2018)

Dellboy said:



			You do really need to stop listening to LBC, I know you believe everything the idiot  Oâ€™ Brien says, but he talks so much tosh itâ€™s laughable
		
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Very good.  So what is the answer to my question?  WTO rules cover trade - and so - in the event of a _No Deal _what happens to everything else that is covered by the Withdrawal Agreement that is not trade related and is not addressed by trading under WTO rules.

And on alternative to May's Agreement - Secret Five - wherefore art thou?  Gove, Leadsom, Grayling, Fox and Mordaunt - where's your alternative for May to take to the EU to renegotiate?  Lots of noise when the details of the May Agreement leaked out and became known - but silence every since.  

Meanwhile on the back benches the great leader Johnson just makes duplicitous and self-serving noises.


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Very good.  So what is the answer to my question?  WTO rules cover trade - and so - in the event of a _No Deal _what happens to everything else that is covered by the Withdrawal Agreement that is not trade related and is not addressed by trading under WTO rules.
		
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As it would effect all sides a sensible AGREEMENT to deal with issues outside of WTO rules seems very likely.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			As it would effect all sides a sensible AGREEMENT to deal with issues outside of WTO rules seems very likely.
		
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And what agreement will that be?  There is no alternative agreement. All we get from _No Deal _is better than _May's Deal _is WTO - nothing else...

Meanwhile the NIESR (National Institute of Economic and Social Research) forecasts a loss per head of, on average, Â£1000 a year on basis of May's Agreement.  Tsk.  Experts.  What do they know.  They just don't believe strongly enough.

https://www.niesr.ac.uk/publications/economic-effects-prime-ministers-brexit-deal#.W_wZsGdLHDc


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And what agreement will that be?  There is no alternative agreement. All we get from _No Deal _is better than _May's Deal _is WTO - nothing else...

Meanwhile the NIESR (National Institute of Economic and Social Research) forecasts a loss per head of, on average, Â£1000 a year on basis of May's Agreement.  Tsk.  Experts.  What do they know.  They just don't believe strongly enough.

https://www.niesr.ac.uk/publications/economic-effects-prime-ministers-brexit-deal#.W_wZsGdLHDc

Click to expand...

Someone will come along with something completely different, some came along and said there would be no EU Army.

Just because it's said don't always make it right.


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## Slime (Nov 26, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Support me and my draft Brexit deal or it could result in a no Brexit deal says our desperate PM.

Ooooo that's a toughy *Teresa* 

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You've been having pops at her for so long now and you still can't get her name right!
It's Theresa ....................... with an h in it!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 26, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just to clarify, if I am a supporter of Scottish Independence I would naturally be against most Westminster [British] politics.
Nice list of well funded English Midlands car industry supporting universities.
Pity we have no car industry in Scotland.
Probably the fault of the SNP for the last 70 years. 

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Well at least you are balanced 

You have a massive chip on both shoulders


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## drdel (Nov 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And what agreement will that be?  There is no alternative agreement. All we get from _No Deal _is better than _May's Deal _is WTO - nothing else...

Meanwhile the NIESR (National Institute of Economic and Social Research) forecasts a loss per head of, on average, Â£1000 a year on basis of May's Agreement.  Tsk.  Experts.  What do they know.  They just don't believe strongly enough.

https://www.niesr.ac.uk/publications/economic-effects-prime-ministers-brexit-deal#.W_wZsGdLHDc

Click to expand...

To be gentlemanly I'll assume you read the full 27 pages where the authors cite that outside EU (based on their pretty wild assumptions) *GDP* will fall 3% and inside the EU by 2%.

Thus, by my maths, a difference of just 1%. Their Â£1,000 is based on the 3% so actually we *might *be talking about average GDP change of about Â£333 per head. Which is a long way from saying each citizen's income will drop by this amount - assuming you accept their convenient assumptions.

IMO you have made a spurious deduction .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Someone will come along with something completely different, some came along and said there would be no EU Army.

Just because it's said don't always make it right.
		
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Yup - as usual - just ignore and pretend all will be fine and throw in usual irrelevant 'whatabootery' just to avoid.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2018)

drdel said:



			To be gentlemanly I'll assume you read the full 27 pages where the authors cite that outside EU (based on their pretty wild assumptions) *GDP* will fall 3% and inside the EU by 2%.

Thus, by my maths, a difference of just 1%. Their Â£1,000 is based on the 3% so actually we *might *be talking about average GDP change of about Â£333 per head. Which is a long way from saying each citizen's income will drop by this amount - assuming you accept their convenient assumptions.

IMO you have made a spurious deduction .
		
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So 2% hit already because of Brexit vote that even staying in a customs union with the EU or in the backstop will resolve (I am not sure the study assumes staying in the EU - just staying in a CU with the EU) - and May's Agreement will hit GDP by a further 1%.  Still got Brexit hitting GDP by 3%.


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## Foxholer (Nov 26, 2018)

drdel said:



			To be gentlemanly I'll assume you read the full 27 pages where the authors cite that outside EU (based on their pretty wild assumptions) *GDP* will fall 3% and inside the EU by 2%.

Thus, by my maths, a difference of just 1%. Their Â£1,000 is based on the 3% so actually we *might *be talking about average GDP change of about Â£333 per head. *Which is a long way from saying each citizen's income will drop by this amount* - assuming you accept their convenient assumptions.

IMO you have made a spurious deduction .
		
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Er.  You 'maths' is simply wrong!! As an econometrician - as opposed to a politician - you should be ashamed to suggest such rubbish! Or at least argue it the way you have in the text I've made bold!!

If you accept that their report is correct - a notoriously unreliable assumption! - then GDP WILL drop by Â£1000/citizen. The fact that it would fall by Â£667 if inside the EU is irrelevant!

Btw.

1. The figures are arguments for BOTH sides of the Brexit debate!
2. Are you saying that NIESR and NiGEM data/models are unreliable?


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - as usual - just ignore and pretend all will be fine and throw in usual irrelevant 'whatabootery' just to avoid.
		
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Unlike you, I will respond to your post.

You obviously never read what I post. I have never said that all will be wine and roses and there will be problems but unlike you have the ability to realize that each side will post what best suits them.

Can you confirm what the EU are or aren't looking at a EU Army and that life in the EU will be an economic oasis within Europe and provide independent evidence of this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Unlike you, I will respond to your post.

You obviously never read what I post. I have never said that all will be wine and roses and there will be problems but unlike you have the ability to realize that each side will post what best suits them.

Can you confirm what the EU are or aren't looking at a EU Army and that life in the EU will be an economic oasis within Europe and provide independent evidence of this.
		
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No I can't - and as we are leaving it doesn't really matter now does it - it's an irrelevance to a UK outside of the EU - except that in some circumstances we might want to work with the EU militarily and will have less insider influence that we might otherwise have had.  

Anyway - here's what the government thinks will happen in the event of No Deal.

file:///C:/Users/A150759/Downloads/CBP-8397.pdf


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## Foxholer (Nov 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
And on alternative to May's Agreement - Secret Five - wherefore art thou?  Gove, Leadsom, Grayling, Fox and Mordaunt - where's your alternative for May to take to the EU to renegotiate?  Lots of noise when the details of the May Agreement leaked out and became known - but silence every since. 

Meanwhile on the back benches the great leader Johnson just makes duplicitous and self-serving noises.
		
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That's what happens in the political world!!


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## IanM (Nov 26, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Can you confirm what the EU are or aren't looking at a EU Army and that life in the EU will be an economic oasis within Europe and provide independent evidence of this.
		
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Well... Merkel and Tusk have been very specific all week about the need for an EU army and increased centalisation of power.   (but shhhh, lets keep talking Trade Deals!)


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No I can't -
		
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Just like leavers yet you continue to ask knowing this.

Can you tell us the economic effects that the EU might or might not suffer when we leave the EU?


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2018)

Quote of the week from a Labour MP on the EU debate, "isn't it time for all of the U.K. citizens to get a vote on leaving the EU", silence for the first time in the house followed by the odd snigger.


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## Hobbit (Nov 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If it was offered to Davis why didn't he accept it?  He was in charge?  Methinks NI/EI border control and Tory party subservience to the DUP ruled it out as an Option.  Besides - what Tusk post vote defined for Canada +++ is irrelevant to the vote as it wasn't defined *before *the vote so we could not have voted for it.
		
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You will continue to twist and turn. Davis couldn't accept it as he wasn't empowered to do so. And even if he was, you do remember Gina Miller?

And you're also splitting hairs on the who, what and when it was defined. 

You also failed, totally, to acknowledge who 'authored' the Canada +++. You thought it was Davis, and was having a dig about why Davis hadn't brought it up before this week and why hadn't he defined it. You're behaving very duplicitous over this.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And what agreement will that be?  There is no alternative agreement. All we get from _No Deal _is better than _May's Deal _is WTO - nothing else...

Meanwhile the NIESR (National Institute of Economic and Social Research) forecasts a loss per head of, on average, Â£1000 a year on basis of May's Agreement.  Tsk.  Experts.  What do they know.  They just don't believe strongly enough.

https://www.niesr.ac.uk/publications/economic-effects-prime-ministers-brexit-deal#.W_wZsGdLHDc

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Ah, not as bad as expected then.  Osborne told us we would be Â£4000 worse off per annum after votiing to leave.


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## Mudball (Nov 26, 2018)

<Broken Record>
This is a good set piece being delivered.   A good/bad (take your pick) was typed up by the mandarins.
Maybot stands for it.   There are a few resignations, EU agrees to it, Opposition makes a lot of noise, but it will get voted in.  
It will get the votes because Tories want to protect their job aka dont want Corbyn in.  Labour will break rank and vote because they are clueless where Corbyn sits..  DUP will agree because they will bargain for more money for NI etc etc.  

Net Net.. a 'people's choice' will inevitably agreed by folks in Westminister who are only interested in their own jobs - country be dammed.   
Personally, I havent read it, but it sounds like we are going to be still working to EU rules just without the ability to influence them.  So its a good result for those who wanted to Leave (as we are leaving) and it is a good result for those who wanted to Remain (because we are going to Remain)..  great win-win

On more important subject.. whats happening on Celebrity Big Brother these days?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Very good.  So what is the answer to my question?  WTO rules cover trade - and so - in the event of a _No Deal _what happens to everything else that is covered by the Withdrawal Agreement that is not trade related and is not addressed by trading under WTO rules.

And on alternative to May's Agreement - Secret Five - wherefore art thou?  Gove, Leadsom, Grayling, Fox and Mordaunt - where's your alternative for May to take to the EU to renegotiate?  Lots of noise when the details of the May Agreement leaked out and became known - but silence every since. 

Meanwhile on the back benches the great leader Johnson just makes duplicitous and self-serving noises.
		
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The answer is the UK would make seperate agreements just like other independant countries. How do you think countries like Australia, New Zealand , Japan,  Canada ans so forth manage.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 26, 2018)

Dellboy said:



			You do really need to stop listening to LBC, I know you believe everything the idiot  Oâ€™ Brien says, but he talks so much tosh itâ€™s laughable
		
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My God he was at heâ€™s absolute swivel eyed worst today! Ranting on about leavers being thrown in the Tower for their crimes against the country..... he is a clever orator and takes people that have a leave view apart every time but as he himself says, â€œyou can win an argument but still be wrongâ€
The man is his own greatest fan, often sounding smug and condescending as he turns off the caller to have the last word. Detestable narrow minded man.


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## USER1999 (Nov 26, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer is the UK would make seperate agreements just like other independant countries. How do you think countries like Australia, New Zealand , Japan,  Canada ans so forth manage.
		
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Under May's agreement, I don't think the UK can.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 26, 2018)

BREAK: Donald Trump says Theresa May's Brexit deal sounds like a good deal for the EU and it means "the UK may not be able to trade with the US".


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 26, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			BREAK: Donald Trump says Theresa May's Brexit deal sounds like a good deal for the EU and it means "the UK may not be able to trade with the US".
		
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I wonder how the hell he would know , struggles to compile a sentence


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Under May's agreement, I don't think the UK can.
		
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Im suggesting that we could if we left without a deal in response to Hogies post.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			BREAK: Donald Trump says Theresa May's Brexit deal sounds like a good deal for the EU and it means "the UK may not be able to trade with the US".
		
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Hes correct if we have to apply EU tariffs. It will put us in a straight jacket.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 26, 2018)

To be honest, Tashyboy did not have a clue what the Brexit deal that has been agreed by the EU and the U.K. Was all about. Having just had a read about it. The one word that comes to mind is " shafted".
Migration, EU people coming to the UK up until the end of the transition period that could well be 2022 can stay in the UK. Eh.
The divorce bill will be 39 Billion plus other expenses including paying for EU officials pensions.
I could go on, but the bottom line is, Tashyboy thinks no deal is the odds on favourite at the moment. I cannot see it getting through Parliment.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I imagine chasing the lowest wage rate is not in the interest of UK PLC but is very much in the interest of companies answerable to shareholders, especially the big ones who can switch to different labour markets relatively easily.  Who are increasingly controlling large parts of the world's economies.  And that's without the spectre of automation of a lot of repetitive roles which I personally believe has had a minor but not insignificant impact on the make up of the jobs market and also fed into the recent disillusion of those who used to have traditional jobs that machines have replaced. And it will have a much more significant one in the future.

Whilst I agree that we should still be a country that can produce high quality engineers and engineered products, we also need to think how we will compete in a gig economy automated world. And I'm not hearing a lot of that from many at the moment in this debate. Although to be fair to TMay, I think I heard her say something about this somewhere recently.
		
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A long hard look at Germany shows the way. German people have a culture of supporting their own (Germany First)   they also have a mindset that supports this philosophy through their education system.  I am always impressed when visiting small towns or villages, there are always manufacturing companies producing products for domestic industries.  It sickens me to see this malaise that perpetuates negative messages regarding  doom and gloom for our future opportunities.   Just as well have a throat cutting fest to speed things up. Remaining in the EU will not solve such issues either.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 26, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			A long hard look at Germany shows the way. German people have a culture of supporting their own (Germany First)   they also have a mindset that supports this philosophy through their education system.  I am always impressed when visiting small towns or villages, there are always manufacturing companies producing products for domestic industries.  It sickens me to see this malaise that perpetuates negative messages regarding  doom and gloom for our future opportunities.   Just as well have a throat cutting fest to speed things up. Remaining in the EU will not solve such issues either.
		
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Hey, I love Germany as well, worked there a bit and have have good friends over there and I suspect that quite a few  brits secretly wish we were more like them.

But they are part of the EU. I'd bloody love it if we stayed in the EU and took the Germany attitude to building a strong economy. But do you really think leaving the EU, potentially with a hard brexit and relying in the current shower that is the government and opposition will help matters? Have the EU in any way stopped us being more like Germany when it comes to trade and the economy?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 26, 2018)

How your MP will vote makes interesting reading.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/how-will-your-mp-vote-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How your MP will vote makes interesting reading.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/how-will-your-mp-vote-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal

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 No need to go through the lobby's then.


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2018)

GM closing down factory's in the US and around the world. Waiting for the first - BREXIT affects the US car industry comment on a remain cut and paste web site.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How your MP will vote makes interesting reading.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/how-will-your-mp-vote-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal

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How would you expect them to vote? Should they vote along party lines, according to the result of the referendum in their own constituency, according to their own personal beliefs (I would have put conscience but I'm not sure MPs have one), or for a different reason?

To clarify, this isn't aimed only at you DfT, I'd be interested to hear other's opinions as well. Didn't want my reply to your post to be misinterpreted as me having a pop at you.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 27, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			GM closing down factory's in the US and around the world. Waiting for the first - BREXIT affects the US car industry comment on a remain cut and paste web site.
		
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I think you might be overestimating the influence of Golf Monthly a slight tad ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2018)

I would expect any/my MP to represent the views of her/his constituents now that the said constituents have a much clearer view of the consequences of leaving the EU. 
The views of my MP are well known and have around 70% support. That is not to leave the EU in the first place.


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			How would you expect them to vote? Should they vote along party lines, according to the result of the referendum in their own constituency, according to their own personal beliefs (I would have put conscience but I'm not sure MPs have one), or for a different reason?

To clarify, this isn't aimed only at you DfT, I'd be interested to hear other's opinions as well. Didn't want my reply to your post to be misinterpreted as me having a pop at you.
		
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I'd like to think they will vote for what is the best thing for the UK. They have access to a whole host of resources that can provide them with answers to many of the questions posed by the Brexit deal.

Sadly, apart from a few rebels in all the parties I think it will be along party lines. I wouldn't be surprised if the Whip is used, and I wouldn't be surprised if attempts are made to buy support in NI/Wales/Scotland with more Â£1bn sweeteners.

Forget the result of the referendum, the MP's will. You only have to listen to some of the MP's on Question Time to realise they do not respect the electorate, e.g. you only have to listen to John McDonnell and his thoughts on mass nationalisation to see that MP's believe more in political doctrine than they do the every day needs of the electorate.

As an aside, I got asked a question by a Spaniard a few days back. "Why do you English hate each other? You are an angry people." Only one person's view but it does make you wonder.


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## pendodave (Nov 27, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			As an aside, I got asked a question by a Spaniard a few days back. "Why do you English hate each other? You are an angry people." Only one person's view but it does make you wonder.
		
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Hmmm. Not sure that a Spaniard is in much of a position on this one tbh....


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## Tashyboy (Nov 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would expect any/my MP to represent the views of her/his constituents now that the said constituents have a much clearer view of the consequences of leaving the EU.
The views of my MP are well known and have around 70% support. That is not to leave the EU in the first place.
		
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As much as I sort of agree with you, the deal is rubbish so why would you as an MP vote that way. By your train of thought, an MP should vote the way his constituents voted what ever deal was agreed between the UK and the EU.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			How would you expect them to vote? Should they vote along party lines, according to the result of the referendum in their own constituency, according to their own personal beliefs (I would have put conscience but I'm not sure MPs have one), or for a different reason?

To clarify, this isn't aimed only at you DfT, I'd be interested to hear other's opinions as well. Didn't want my reply to your post to be misinterpreted as me having a pop at you.
		
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I'd also expect them to vote in what they think is the best interests of the UK and not based on their own quest for power.  But there Bob Hope of that happening. They are in a very difficult position as if they had to vote without the referendum and without being whipped to an inch of their lives, I am pretty sure that the majority would vote to stay in.  Remember the only party that had leaving the EU as a manifesto pledge was UKIP who have a grand total of zero MPs.  And all we ever hear from the main parties are the noisy but actually quite small brigade on both extremes of the arguments, I firmly believe most MPs are OK with the status quo.

But as we have had a referendum then there is always the moral argument that they should vote based on the result of the referendum.  And then people will interpret that either way depending on their preference; the majority of the constituency voted to stay so the MP should vote stay or the majority of the electorate voted to leave so they should vote leave. Either to me is an equally valid argument.  

But they do not have the option to vote leave or stay, just accept the deal or reject it.  And no one really knows if rejecting the deal will lead us to staying in or a hard Brexit.  Or even if accepting the deal is a proper Brexit as some may have envisioned. So all in all a total cluster, and as we get closer to Brexit day, the decision to give the public the vote without any planning on what would happen if we voted to leave looks like being one of the the most stupid political decision ever made by a Uk government.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			A long hard look at Germany shows the way. German people have a culture of supporting their own (Germany First)   they also have a mindset that supports this philosophy* through their education system*.  I am always impressed when visiting small towns or villages, there are always manufacturing companies producing products for domestic industries.  It sickens me to see this malaise that perpetuates negative messages regarding  doom and gloom for our future opportunities.   Just as well have a throat cutting fest to speed things up. Remaining in the EU will not solve such issues either.
		
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Also I agree that education is very important.  But as a chair of governors I can see what is happening to education at the moment in terms of funding.  Watch the School program currently running on the BBC and you will see the challenges most schools are facing with regards to money and the cuts just about every school is having to make.  Best of luck getting a highly educated future workforce in the current situation most teachers, who are really doing their best, have to work under.

You may see this as yet another example of me being down on the UK and specifically public spending and you may well be right. But to me if we are going to take back control then we really need to have a strong system in place to fund public services such as the NHS, police and schools, so we can support the whole society.  Not the deregulated low tax economy that the hard Brexiters seem to want.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 27, 2018)

Hackerâ€™s Back

Did they let you out of prison then? ðŸ‘ðŸ˜Ž


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would expect any/my MP to represent the views of her/his constituents now that the said constituents have a much clearer view of the consequences of leaving the EU. 
The views of my MP are well known and have around 70% support. That is not to leave the EU in the first place.
		
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Herein lies the problem. The only absolute indicator of the views constituents is the result of the referendum, which as you say was before they/we had a clear picture of what would happen after a leave vote. Also muddying the water is the fact that some leave voters will support the agreement and others will oppose it as it's not proper Brexit. And that's without the remain voters that might be willing to reluctantly accept that we are going to leave and t this deal is the best we can hope for. 

After the referendum we had a two way split in the country. After two years of negotiations we now have a four way split in the country.

Just out of interest is the 70% figure the remain vote at the referendum or from more recent opinion polls?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Hackerâ€™s Back

Did they let you out of prison then? ðŸ‘ðŸ˜Ž
		
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Naa, just took a break as I realised the futility and pointlessness of constantly having the same old arguments with the same old people on the same old subjects who quite clearly have no intention of changing their views.  Then there's dealing with the the humourless sad individuals whose lives must be so empty that they seemingly get their only kicks from deliberately winding up people they have never met in real life on golf forums. But hey ho, seems I never learn, so I came back for more.

However it seems in my absence you can now get likes and awards.  I was thrilled to see I got a 'Somebody likes me' award yesterday which is great.  I mean, yes this type of thing can only exacerbate the worries around the increasing amount of mental health issues, as people base their own self worth on the number of friends or likes on social media. So they therefore get ever more desperate to gain social affirmation through this process, potentially sending them on a downward spiral of loss of self worth and even depression if it does not happen. But an awards and award, back of the net.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Naa, just took a break as I realised the futility and pointlessness of constantly having the same old arguments with the same old people on the same old subjects who quite clearly have no intention of changing their views.  Then there's dealing with the the humourless sad individuals whose lives must be so empty that they seemingly get their only kicks from deliberately winding up people they have never met in real life on golf forums. But hey ho, seems I never learn, so I came back for more.

But it seems in my absence you can now get likes and awards.  I was thrilled to see I got a 'Somebody likes me' award yesterday which is great.  I mean, yes this type of thing can only exacerbate the worries around the increasing amount of mental health issues, as people base their own self worth on the number of friends or likes on social media. So they therefore get ever more desperate to gain social affirmation through this process, potentially sending them on a downward spiral of loss of self worth and even depression if it does not happen. But an awards and award, back of the net. 

Click to expand...

I only liked this post to try to help you increase your own feelings of self worth. (Insert your own smiley/thumbs up emoji as my kindle won't let me)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I only liked this post to try to help you increase your own feelings of self worth. (Insert your own smiley/thumbs up emoji as my kindle won't let me)
		
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And I liked your post so you could feel some of the warmth youâ€™re trying to give Hacker.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			And I liked your post so you could feel some of the warmth youâ€™re trying to give Hacker. 

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Right back at you.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 27, 2018)

If MP's are supposed to be representing the views of their constituents then I suggest there's quite a few that need to have a re-think....


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			And I liked your post so you could feel some of the warmth youâ€™re trying to give Hacker. 

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Thanks both, your likes have my quenched my, at times, psychotic desire for affirmation and acceptance for today.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Herein lies the problem. The only absolute indicator of the views constituents is the result of the referendum, which as you say was before they/we had a clear picture of what would happen after a leave vote. Also muddying the water is the fact that some leave voters will support the agreement and others will oppose it as it's not proper Brexit. And that's without the remain voters that might be willing to reluctantly accept that we are going to leave and t this deal is the best we can hope for.

After the referendum we had a two way split in the country. After two years of negotiations we now have a four way split in the country.

Just out of interest is the 70% figure the remain vote at the referendum or from more recent opinion polls?
		
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62% EU referendum 70% recent polls
It is England and Wales that is split four ways, my country is/was overwhelming in favour of remaining in the EU.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 27, 2018)

Possibly one for random irritations....

But the total tool on the telly saying Ms  May puts the UK first...
Well, not many gonna buy that...


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## jp5 (Nov 27, 2018)

A US president interfering in our politics... now that didn't go down too well last time!


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## MegaSteve (Nov 27, 2018)

jp5 said:



			A US president interfering in our politics... now that didn't go down too well last time!
		
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Barak poked his nose in after a request from Dave... Trump doesn't tend to wait for invites...


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

jp5 said:



			A US president interfering in our politics... now that didn't go down too well last time!
		
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To be honest I mostly ignore anything he says as it is clear by now he will say anything, including out right lying, in order to play to his base of supporters back home.  But I did see from the BBC website that '

International Trade Secretary Liam Fox is visiting Israel to boost economic ties ahead of Brexit
Excellent, obviously we've found that dealing with the knife edge politics of Northern Ireland is a bit fraught with danger so it seems we have decided to go to a much more politically stable region to do business.


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## jp5 (Nov 27, 2018)

It will likely have the opposite effect to what he intended, as did Obama's comments, and expect more people will think it's a good deal for us if Trump thinks it isn't!


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## Fade and Die (Nov 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			62% EU referendum 70% recent polls
It is England and Wales that is split four ways, my country is/was *overwhelming in favour of remaining in the EU*.
		
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Well you say that but more than a Million Scots voted to leave and Scotland had the lowest turnout of any region in the UK, the percentages seem large 62%/38% but they are skewed by the low numbers.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 27, 2018)

Pestons take on it all :

We've all been focussing on the crisis that would ensue if - as expected - the PM loses the meaningful vote on her Brexit deal â€ªon 11 Decemberâ€¬.
But just for a moment think about the implications if she wins, because they too would be momentous.
To state the obvious, we'd be out of the EU on terms that are semi-blind - we wouldn't know our long-term destination. But we would be out.
And she, the PM, would rein supreme.
She would have crushed her opponents, who would have lost all hope of political advancement or favour.
And having delivered Brexit against the odds, she could be pretty confident in staying PM for as long as she wanted, perhaps well beyond the next election - and the election itself would be off the cards till 2022.
Just saying all this out loud demonstrates quite how unlikely it would be - especiaily after even her former human shield Michael Fallon has said how much he loathes her Brexit plan.
So let's revert to perhaps the more pertinent question of what happens if she loses the big vote.
Then, as I said on News at Ten, it comes down to who among the leaders of the two biggest parties is fastest to show proper leadership.
A display of decisive leadership will be hard for the PM, because she'll be under intense pressure to return to Brussels to ask EU leaders to amend the Withdrawal Agreement such that Northern Ireland's DUP would no longer be be able to complain that the so-called backstop drives a wedge between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
Such prevarication would undermine her authority, especially if the EU says no.
Even in the unlikely event the EU caves, the trick might fail - because there are plenty of MPs in her own party who like Fallon hate the idea of handing over Â£39bn in a divorce bill for such an uncertain long-term trading relationship with the EU.
And there is no chance of any change to that just-signed Political Declaration by the EU that is so indeterminate on the permanent relationship between the UK and EU.
So May could fail to secure her deal if it returned to the Commons for a second vote, whether or not the deal had been tweaked to reassure the DUP.
She would therefore face pressure from the Remainers in her cabinet, led by the chancellor Philip Hammond, the business secretary Greg Clarke and the work and pensions secretary Amber Rudd to move to the softest style of Brexit - the so-called Norway model enhanced perhaps by membership of the customs union.
The advantages of this approach is that it would deliver frictionless trade, which would render unnecessary any Northern Ireland backstop to keep open the border on the island of Ireland. It is also the kind of Brexit favoured by most big exporters and importers.
For Brexiter purists, Norway-plusâ€™s defects are manifold - mainly that it would see the UK as an EU rule-taker forever and would allow only the most limited control on free movement of workers to the U.K.
So for Brexiter ultras, a planned no-deal Brexit, as opposed to an accidental chaotic one, would be preferable. But to avoid chaos, to ensure necessary infrastructure is on the border and a series of mini deals are agreed to avoid extreme shocks (such as airplanes being unable to land), the UK would probably have to stay either in the EU or in a state of â€œtransitionâ€ (non-voting membership) for at least another year after 29 March 2019.
To state the blooming, bleedinâ€™, blinkinâ€™ obvious, these rival Brexits split cabinet and Tory Party down the middle.
Which is what provides Labour with its opportunity.
According to senior Labour sources, Corbyn is close to agreeing that shortly (days) after the loss of the meaningful vote by May, he would formally make his party the champion of another referendum or Peopleâ€™s Vote - on the basis that if there is no consensus in parliament on what comes next, the question has to go back to the people.
At this conjuncture, there might well be a clear parliamentary majority for such a referendum - with the choice between Mayâ€™s deal (as the only negotiated deal) and remaining in the EU - if the Tory MPs who currently say they back a plebiscite stick to their guns.
Which is why, if May sees this coming (which presumably she must), she may try to head it off at the pass by saying shortly after losing the vote that she remains committed to Brexit and will in effect lead a government of national unity to capture the will of parliament on what kind of Brexit is sought by most MPs.
If Brexit it be for the PM, rather than referendum, that would probably be Norway-plus, if she wants to reflect the preference of parliament.
But for her to become deliverer of what many Tories would see as conversion of the UK into the ultimate vassal state would be potentially lethal for her party.
The Brexiter ultras would be incensed, and would certainly try to depose her, prior to conceivably quitting the party altogether if they were to fail.
Or to put it another way, there are just over two weeks to go before events that will be tumultuous, egregious, nation changing. I only wish I could tell you how this epic ends.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Well you say that but more than a Million Scots voted to leave and Scotland had the lowest turnout of any region in the UK, the percentages seem large 62%/38% but they are skewed by the low numbers.
		
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In any form of political contest nearly a two thirds majority is regarded as massive.

Worth mentioning that the Scots First Minister has the whole hearted support of her parliament.
Only a handful of right wing Scots Tory MSP's are against her position on Brexit.
They have probably changed their position now with the EU taking back control of UK fishing.


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In any form of political contest nearly a two thirds majority is regarded as massive.

Worth mentioning that the Scots First Minister has the whole hearted support of her parliament.
Only a handful of right wing Scots Tory MSP's are against her position on Brexit.
They have probably changed their position now with the EU taking back control of UK fishing.
		
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But of course it was an in/out UK vote and, who voted in what region, at what age, of what nationality etc etc is totally irrelevant


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## Imurg (Nov 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			62% EU referendum 70% recent polls
It is England and Wales that is split four ways, my country is/was overwhelming in favour of remaining in the EU.
		
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Well, go ahead a stay then......
Oh, wait a minute...you've already voted against Independence....never mind.
I've always said it and I'll say it again...
The worst thing about the referendum was releasing the breakdown of regional voting.
It wasn't a regional vote and the regional voting habits irrelevant to the vote itself.


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## DRW (Nov 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just to clarify, if I am a supporter of Scottish Independence I would naturally be against most Westminster [British] politics.
		
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Do you not find that it makes for one dimensional thinking wise ? Or is it that SNP happen to have policies that you completely agree with ?

I don't think I could ever think like that and think that one party supports most of my beliefs and never understood when people used to say my granddad was a labour, my dad was and so am I.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2018)

chrisd said:



			But of course it was an in/out UK vote and, who voted in what region, at what age, of what nationality etc etc is totally irrelevant
		
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Irrelevant...â€¦.Not to the voters of NI and Scotland...â€¦â€¦....let's wait and see how that one pans out.


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Irrelevant...â€¦.Not to the voters of NI and Scotland...â€¦â€¦....let's wait and see how that one pans out.

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It really is irrelevant, it was a vote where the answer to one question determined the outcome, and the only issue was who's wishes were in the majority, where Mr or Mrs Voter lived was not played no part in matter


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## Fade and Die (Nov 27, 2018)

DRW said:



			Do you not find that it makes for one dimensional thinking wise ? *Or is it that SNP happen to have policies that you completely agree with* ?

I don't think I could ever think like that and think that one party supports most of my beliefs and never understood when people used to say my granddad was a labour, my dad was and so am I.
		
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They have the only policy Doon needs...... Escape the hated English (and bizarrely jump under the old continental quilt with a federal superstate!)


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2018)

DRW said:



			Do you not find that it makes for one dimensional thinking wise ? Or is it that SNP happen to have policies that you completely agree with ?

I don't think I could ever think like that and think that one party supports most of my beliefs and never understood when people used to say my granddad was a labour, my dad was and so am I.
		
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 Both really, I find it amusing when folk who are perhaps a bit slow [not you] criticize the SNP for wanting Independence for Scotland [which of course in itself one dimensional.] The clue is in their name.
They also assume that the SNP will be the majority political party should independence happen. They are in a minority government right now, they need the support of the Greens to push things through.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			They have the only policy Doon needs...... Escape the hated English (and bizarrely jump under the old continental quilt with a federal superstate!)
		
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Yawn Yawn broken record borderline racist rubbish again.

You do not even understand that your lazy stereotype of Scotland for wanting it's country back is not entirely dissimilar to what Leavers  in England and Wales wish.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yawn Yawn broken record *borderline racist rubbish again.*

You do not even understand that your lazy stereotype of Scotland for wanting it's country back is not entirely dissimilar to what Leavers  in England and Wales wish.
		
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Oh my goodness, you went there quick!......... will you be reporting me for a hate crime you beautiful and unique freedom fighter?


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## Mudball (Nov 27, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How your MP will vote makes interesting reading.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/how-will-your-mp-vote-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal

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So those who are voting no to the agreement... what is the alternative they present??


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## jp5 (Nov 27, 2018)

Mudball said:



			So those who are voting no to the agreement... what is the alternative they present??
		
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That's not for them to decide. A similar situation to the 2016 referendum.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2018)

Good take on where we are with Brexit from a neutral point of view.
Discard the misleading title.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...p?shareToken=8d30aca59291b4112ccc9949514f8d96


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2018)

So, we vote to leave and the Government put in charge a remainer to oversee the process. The remainer in charge deliberately messes up the leave process so that leave voters, rather than end up with no deal and the ensuing chaos that will follow have to change their minds and decide to stay................

Have leave voters been conned?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

chrisd said:



			But of course it was an in/out UK vote and, *who voted in what region*, at what age, of what nationality etc etc is totally irrelevant
		
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I'd argue it could be if we want to keep the U bit of UK.  Assuming that we have had any semblance of a common united Uk wide vision or plan for exiting based on region or political party has cost us dear and kind of doomed the negotiations to failure from the very start.  You can only negotiate a strong outcome if we have an united and agreed starting negotiating position and agreed outcomes.  The Uk has never had this (losing one brexit minister is unfortunate.....) where as the EU mostly has.


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue it could be if we want to keep the U bit of UK.
		
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Do we?


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## bluewolf (Nov 27, 2018)

chrisd said:



			So, we vote to leave and the Government put in charge a remainer to oversee the process. The remainer in charge deliberately messes up the leave process so that leave voters, rather than end up with no deal and the ensuing chaos that will follow have to change their minds and decide to stay................

Have leave voters been conned?
		
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Did you vote Tory at the last GE? If the answer is yes, then technically you put her in charge. And Tory means Tory, and you've got to respect the result of the democratic process etc etc ðŸ˜‰


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Do we?
		
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Possibly, unless some people also saw it as a vote on English independence.


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Did you vote Tory at the last GE? If the answer is yes, then technically you put her in charge. And Tory means Tory, and you've got to respect the result of the democratic process etc etc ðŸ˜‰
		
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WRONG - I voted Tory to put Damien Collins in to power, and therefore to have the right to moan about THEIR choice of PM


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Possibly, unless some people also saw it as a vote on English independence.
		
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It couldn't be that as we didn't get a vote


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

chrisd said:



			So, we vote to leave and the Government put in charge a remainer to oversee the process. The remainer in charge *deliberately messes up* the leave process so that leave voters, rather than end up with no deal and the ensuing chaos that will follow have to change their minds and decide to stay................

Have leave voters been conned?
		
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That's a very strong statement and one that I would argue could do with some evidence to back it up, or it just comes across as paranoia and the start of the 'deflecting the blame' game by people who originally claimed the process would be simple, new trade deals easy to negotiate etc etc.  The PM is in charge of ensuring the best outcomes for the country.  It is obvious that in her and many other MPs minds, they do not see a hard 'leave at all costs' Brexit as the best possible outcome so they have been doing what they see as the best thing to ensure the future economic and political stability of the country.  And ended up pleasing no one, but that was only ever going the be the outcome anyway.


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## bluewolf (Nov 27, 2018)

chrisd said:



			WRONG - I voted Tory to put Damien Collins in to power, and therefore to have the right to moan about THEIR choice of PM
		
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Maybe I remember it wrong, but wasn't she PM before the GE. Seems a bit strange to complain about something you knew was already in place before you voted. A bit like moving next to an airport and then complaining about the noise of the planes...


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Maybe I remember it wrong, but wasn't she PM before the GE. Seems a bit strange to complain about something you knew was already in place before you voted. A bit like moving next to an airport and then complaining about the noise of the planes...
		
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Do you vote for the constituency candidate or the prime minister?


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			That's a very strong statement and one that I would argue could do with some evidence to back it up, or it just comes across as paranoia and the start of the 'deflecting the blame' game by people who originally claimed the process would be simple, new trade deals easy to negotiate etc etc.  The PM is in charge of ensuring the best outcomes for the country.  It is obvious that in her and many other MPs minds, they do not see a hard 'leave at all costs' Brexit as the best possible outcome so they have been doing what they see as the best thing to ensure the future economic and political stability of the country.  And ended up pleasing no one, but that was only ever going the be the outcome anyway.
		
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Please don't ask for EVIDENCE on a thread with over 2,000 posts of opinions ðŸ˜


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## IanM (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			That's a very strong statement and one that I would argue could do with some evidence to back it up
		
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Isnt the amount of prevarication over the past 2 and a half years, and the rubbishness of the outcome sufficient evidence for you?


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## MegaSteve (Nov 27, 2018)

It was having a government full of politicians that thought they knew best that saw the Donald get to where he has...


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## bluewolf (Nov 27, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Do you vote for the constituency candidate or the prime minister?
		
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Stop playing games. You knew who was PM when you voted. You can't complain about it after the fact. Respect the result of the democratic vote and just get over it...

ðŸ˜‰

By the way, the smilie indicates a little (tiny) bit of humour.


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Stop playing games. You knew who was PM when you voted. You can't complain about it after the fact. Respect the result of the democratic vote and just get over it...

ðŸ˜‰

By the way, the smilie indicates a little (tiny) bit of humour.
		
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Hold on a minute  ....... I'm a Brexiteer!!


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

IanM said:



			Isnt the amount of prevarication over the past 2 and a half years, and the rubbishness of the outcome sufficient evidence for you? 

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To me that is evidence of the stupidity of holding a referendum without fully thinking through the ramifications and not doing sufficient planning for both outcomes.  Not evidence of the fact that the PM has deliberately been trying to sabotage us leaving.


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			To me that is evidence of the stupidity of holding a referendum without fully thinking through the ramifications and not doing sufficient planning for both outcomes.  Not evidence of the fact that the PM has deliberately been trying to sabotage us leaving.
		
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And no evidence that she hasn't ðŸ˜


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## bluewolf (Nov 27, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Hold on a minute  ....... I'm a Brexiteer!!
		
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Yes. Quite ironic really ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‚


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Do you vote for the constituency candidate or the prime minister?
		
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But what happens if your candidate doesn't get elected?


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## Slime (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Stop playing games. You knew who was PM when you voted. You can't complain about it after the fact. *Respect the result of the democratic vote and just get over it...*

ðŸ˜‰

By the way, the smilie indicates a little (tiny) bit of humour.
		
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I just wish that the remainers would do the same!


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## IanM (Nov 27, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			But what happens if your candidate doesn't get elected?

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Based on recent evidence you bawl and stamp your feet!


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## bluewolf (Nov 27, 2018)

Slime said:



			I just wish that the remainers would do the same!
		
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Right. I'm going to say it. 
It was a joke. Based on the oft heard cry from Leavers that Remainers should respect the vote etc. It was ironic. I apologise from the very bottom of my heart that it was misunderstood. I'll now find a dark corner and self flagellate until the time of Brexit heaven is at hand!!!


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## chrisd (Nov 27, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			But what happens if your candidate doesn't get elected?

Click to expand...

You ask for another vote because you didn't get the result you wantedðŸ˜‚


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## Slime (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Right. I'm going to say it.
It was a joke. Based on the oft heard cry from Leavers that Remainers should respect the vote etc. It was ironic. I apologise from the very bottom of my heart that it was misunderstood. I'll now find a dark corner and self flagellate until the time of Brexit heaven is at hand!!!
		
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Oooh, touched a nerve?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Did you vote Tory at the last GE? If the answer is yes, then technically you put her in charge. And Tory means Tory, and you've got to respect the result of the democratic process etc etc ðŸ˜‰
		
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But we voted for what was in her manifesto and her statements and red lines. That's not what she has delivered in this very poor deal for the UK.


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## bluewolf (Nov 27, 2018)

Slime said:



			Oooh, touched a nerve?
		
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Not in the slightest, no. It's just unfortunate that the humour didn't translate for some reason. I'll try harder next time ðŸ‘


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## bluewolf (Nov 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			But we voted for what was in her manifesto and her statements and red lines. That's not what she has delivered in this very poor deal for the UK.
		
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Maybe you should ask for a 2nd vote?

In all honesty, as I've said for a long time. There is no good deal to be had. It was always, ALWAYS going to be No Deal vs a Bad Deal. This cannot be a surprise to anyone, can it?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Maybe I remember it wrong, but wasn't she PM before the GE. Seems a bit strange to complain about something you knew was already in place before you voted. A bit like moving next to an airport and then complaining about the noise of the planes...
		
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It's more like a union official telling the workforce he has negotiated a great wage deal for them and not to worry that they now have to pay the company to work for them.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Maybe you should ask for a 2nd vote?

In all honesty, as I've said for a long time. There is no good deal to be had. It was always, ALWAYS going to be No Deal vs a Bad Deal. This cannot be a surprise to anyone, can it?
		
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Only if you believe a No Deal has to be a bad deal.  a free trade agreement would  be a good deal if it was on offer with no further strings, but it's not is it.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Maybe you should ask for a 2nd vote?

In all honesty, as I've said for a long time. There is no good deal to be had. It was always, ALWAYS going to be No Deal vs a Bad Deal. This cannot be a surprise to anyone, can it?
		
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Reality is hitting home, we can all have dreams ... I dream of eating donuts and never getting fat .. but reality is a cruel mistress


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Reality is hitting home, we can all have dreams ... I dream of eating donuts and never getting fat .. but reality is a cruel mistress
		
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I get your point there.
I dream of being in the EU without being shafted. Same reality, same cruel mistress.


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## bluewolf (Nov 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Only if you believe a No Deal has to be a bad deal.  a free trade agreement would  be a good deal if it was on offer with no further strings, but it's not is it.
		
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No, and it never was on offer. It was never going to be on offer. As I said previously, both sides had red lines. They didn't match in the slightest. So, either one side would have to significantly compromise their position, or it was No Deal. 

If this is news to anyone then I'm surprised as it's been quite clear. If there is a Good Deal, then why has not one single leading Brexiteer come up with it?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I get your point there.
I dream of being in the EU without being shafted. Same reality, same cruel mistress.
		
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We wouldnâ€™t have been shafted had Farage not taken his role seriously and also the other wasters ... not to mention all the Tory prime ministers who talked tough but in reality were not honest enough to say or guide the MEP representatives to vote on the issues


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2018)

One big problem was that the UK government weren't prepared to walk away from the negotiations and the EU knew it despite all the "No deal is better than a bad deal" posturing from Theresa May. We should have been tougher early in the negotiations and said "Stuff you, we'll leave with no deal as you aren't prepared to actually negotiate. That means no Â£39 billion payment, zero access to our territorial waters for your fishing fleet, and we'll impose tariffs of 25% on all car, wine and food imports and a 50% tariff on holidays from the UK to the EU". The problem with that would have been the wild howls of outrage from many on the Remain side even if it was being done as a negotiation strategy.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 27, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			We wouldnâ€™t have been shafted had Farage not taken his role seriously and also the other wasters ... not to mention all the Tory prime ministers who talked tough but in reality were not honest enough to say or guide the MEP representatives to vote on the issues
		
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We were shafted when Major signed on the dotted line, on our behalf , without first asking if that was what we wanted....


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			One big problem was that the UK government weren't prepared to walk away from the negotiations and the EU knew it despite all the "No deal is better than a bad deal" posturing from Theresa May. We should have been tougher early in the negotiations and said "Stuff you, we'll leave with no deal as you aren't prepared to actually negotiate. That means no Â£39 billion payment, zero access to our territorial waters for your fishing fleet, and we'll impose tariffs of 25% on all car, wine and food imports and a 50% tariff on holidays from the UK to the EU". The problem with that would have been the wild howls of outrage from many on the Remain side even if it was being done as a negotiation strategy.
		
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And I suspect the EU would have seen though it in about 3 seconds and said 'off you go then trot off.....' knowing full well we would be shooting ourselves in the foot if we ever went through with it. And am also not sure telling the Uk public that they will have to pay an extra 50% on holidays to Europe would have gone down that well.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			No, and it never was on offer. It was never going to be on offer. As I said previously, both sides had red lines. They didn't match in the slightest. So, either one side would have to significantly compromise their position, or it was No Deal.

If this is news to anyone then I'm surprised as it's been quite clear. If there is a Good Deal, then why has not one single leading Brexiteer come up with it?
		
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As this goes on a No Deal looks quite attractive.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			And I suspect the EU would have seen though it in about 3 seconds and said 'off you go then trot off.....' knowing full well we would be shooting ourselves in the foot if we ever went through with it. And am also not sure telling the Uk public that they will have to pay an extra 50% on holidays to Europe would have gone down that well.
		
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That would go down a hoot in Spain and Greece.


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## bluewolf (Nov 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			As this goes on a No Deal looks quite attractive.
		
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In the same way that a bullet to the nuts is attractive when compared to one to the head I suppose.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			In the same way that a bullet to the nuts is attractive when compared to one to the head I suppose.
		
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Please explain whats that bad about it.
https://brexitcentral.com/world-trade-deal-wto-rules-now-best-option-uk/


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			And am also not sure telling the Uk public that they will have to pay an extra 50% on holidays to Europe would have gone down that well.
		
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Might have been more acceptable if the money raised had been used to subsidise holidays to non EU countries. A holiday for a family of four to Turkey/Florida/South Africa for example suddenly being Â£800/1000 cheaper for example might have softened the blow a bit. 

Although that does run the risk of ruining some nice destinations when the chavs that normally have their cheap week in the sun in Spain find other destinations affordable. ;-)


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## jp5 (Nov 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			"Stuff you, we'll leave with no deal as you aren't prepared to actually negotiate. That means no Â£39 billion payment....
		
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I suspect not honouring your legal obligations probably wouldn't be the best beginnings for the UK looking for partners outside the EU.


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## Dando (Nov 27, 2018)

jp5 said:



			I suspect not honouring your legal obligations probably wouldn't be the best beginnings for the UK looking for partners outside the EU.
		
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Yet the EU refused to even start holding us to ransom until we agreed to giving them a massive brown envelope stuffed full of cash


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2018)

jp5 said:



			I suspect not honouring your legal obligations probably wouldn't be the best beginnings for the UK looking for partners outside the EU.
		
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I wasn't suggesting not paying anything but I'm not convinced that all of the Â£39 billion are our legal obligations. I suspect that the figure has been somewhat inflated. I've got no evidence to back up that assertion, only my suspicions, but equally I've seen no evidence or a breakdown to show that we do owe that amount.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



*Might have been more acceptable if the money raised had been used to subsidise holidays to non EU countries*. A holiday for a family of four to Turkey/Florida/South Africa for example suddenly being Â£800/1000 cheaper for example might have softened the blow a bit.

Although that does run the risk of ruining some nice destinations when the chavs that normally have their cheap week in the sun in Spain find other destinations affordable. ;-)
		
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Absolutely no chance of happening as not withstanding the logistical arrangements of having such a scheme, I'm not sure governments should really be spending our ever more scarce public money to subsidise families to go on a holiday to Disneyland.

Trouble is I'm never sure if these type of suggestions are just a mostly throw away remark, if so then fair enough. Or if they are serious proposals that one side of the debate is suggesting


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wasn't suggesting not paying anything but I'm not convinced that all of the Â£39 billion are our legal obligations. I suspect that the figure has been somewhat inflated. I've got no evidence to back up that assertion, only my suspicions, but equally I've seen no evidence or a breakdown to show that we do owe that amount.
		
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Don't take this personally but I'd tend to believe that with a figure that large, some accountant and legal types on our side have looked at the figure, agreed that is seems OK and signed off on it, over your admittedly wild assumption with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			That would go down a hoot in Spain and Greece.
		
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So a lose lose then.  Which is a perfect metaphor for where we currently are with the Brexit deal really.


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## bluewolf (Nov 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain whats that bad about it.
https://brexitcentral.com/world-trade-deal-wto-rules-now-best-option-uk/

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If you're just going to provide links to Pro Brexit Matthew Elliot owned propaganda sites then it's not really worth discussing.

Here's the latest from the Independant..

https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/no-deal-brexit-0


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wasn't suggesting not paying anything but I'm not convinced that all of the Â£39 billion are our legal obligations. I suspect that the figure has been somewhat inflated. I've got no evidence to back up that assertion, only my suspicions, but equally I've seen no evidence or a breakdown to show that we do owe that amount.
		
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I wouldn't worry about that figure. The EU have also acknowledged what they owe the UK for % ownership of EU assets.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Absolutely no chance of happening as not withstanding the logistical arrangements of having such a scheme, I'm not sure governments should really be spending our ever more scarce public money to subsidise families to go on a holiday to Disneyland.

Trouble is I'm never sure if these type of suggestions are just a mostly throw away remark, if so then fair enough. Or if they are serious proposals that one side of the debate is suggesting
		
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It  wasn't meant as a serious suggestion. I'd hoped the 2nd paragraph would indicate that. Perhaps I could've been clearer.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Don't take this personally but I'd tend to believe that with a figure that large, some accountant and legal types on our side have looked at the figure, agreed that is seems OK and signed off on it, over your admittedly wild assumption with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.
		
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You could well be correct but as it appears that our negotiating strategy has been to bend over and take it every time the EU has demanded something I'm not convinced haven't done the same with the Â£39 billion figure as well.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			So a lose lose then.  Which is a perfect metaphor for where we currently are with the Brexit deal really.
		
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Couldn't agree more, we are stuck between a weak  PM running scared and a parliament full of game players that allow the EU negotiaters to treat us with the contempt we deserve.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			You could well be correct but as it appears that our negotiating strategy has been to bend over and take it every time the EU has demanded something I'm not convinced haven't done the same with the Â£39 billion figure as well.
		
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I'd argue, rightly or wrongly, our negotiating strategy has been mostly based around damage limitation.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 27, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Couldn't agree more, we are stuck between a weak  PM running scared and a parliament full of game players that allow the EU negotiaters *to treat us with the contempt we deserve*.
		
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Now who's the one with no confidence in the UK


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue, rightly or wrongly, our negotiating strategy has been mostly based around damage limitation.
		
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I'd argue we've been weak from the very start of the negotiations. Recent comments from France about access to fishing areas and previous comments from German industry to Merkel demanding a deal be agreed show that we obviously do have some things that EU countries want access to. Add in what has been said by Spain about making their own arrangements/agreements with the UK in the event of no deal and we had the opportunity to be much stronger than it appears we w


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## harpo_72 (Nov 27, 2018)

The French were looking to make a trade deal on the fishing waters... The Gibraltar question was left unanswered. 
There are other stakeholders at work ... but in the end if you want out or the Canada deal why not just go,bare in mind though these countries are established and have their trade agreements laid out.
It will be interesting to see what the European Court rules regarding the reversal of article 50. Which means 3 deals on the table ...


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## Slime (Nov 27, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Not in the slightest, no. It's just unfortunate that the humour didn't translate for some reason. I'll try harder next time ðŸ‘
		
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Your sentiment only had a tiny bit of humour in it, your words, so the vast majority of it must have been serious ........................ surely.


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## bluewolf (Nov 28, 2018)

Slime said:



			Your sentiment only had a tiny bit of humour in it, your words, so the vast majority of it must have been serious ........................ surely.
		
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If you say so. You know best. I just wrote it. You went to all the effort of reading it ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Now who's the one with no confidence in the UK  

Click to expand...

It must be an abject lesson on how not to negotiate.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			If you're just going to provide links to Pro Brexit Matthew Elliot owned propaganda sites then it's not really worth discussing.

Here's the latest from the Independant..

https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/no-deal-brexit-0

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Well here's another but as its a positive view on WTO I guess its not acceptable.

It was also interesting to hear Hammond on the news this morning suggesting how much more expensive food imports would be to the UK due to WTO tariffs that would be applied.  He fails to say that its up to the UK not the EU what tariffs would be applied to our imports.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/whos-afraid-of-the-wto/


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2018)

I see the Tory party/May/Brexit leaders have blocked the only non unionist supporting newspaper in Scotland from attending her Scottish press conference.
I wonder why I am not surprised at that.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue, rightly or wrongly, our negotiating strategy has been mostly based around damage limitation.
		
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Yes, the amount of damage we are inflicting on ourselves.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, the amount of damage we are inflicting on ourselves.
		
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You can take that several ways.  One may argue that our negotiating tactic has been to try and minimise the economic and political damage we are causing to ourselves through our decision to brexit.  Others may well have a different take.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			You can take that several ways.  One may argue that our negotiating tactic has been to try and minimise the economic and political damage we are causing to ourselves through our decision to brexit.  Others may well have a different take.
		
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The peoples vote decided for us to leave the EU, these negotiations have been targeted at trying to keep us in it except by name and not respecting what the majority wanted.  There has been too much exaggeration and hype on what leaving would entail and I would suggest the Governments negotiating policy has been undemocratic and as such will fail.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The peoples vote decided for us to leave the EU, these negotiations have been targeted at trying to keep us in it except by name and not respecting what the majority wanted.  *There has been too much exaggeration and hype on what leaving would entail* and I would suggest the Governments negotiating policy has been undemocratic and as such will fail.
		
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I'd strap yourself in for the treasury report coming out today on the economic impact of the various types of Brexit then, especially the hard Brexit.  As it may not make pleasant reading for some.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 28, 2018)

I'd like to see a breakdown of how they arrived at 39M... Still feel it was a figure plucked out of the air...

And, when this is all done and dusted I won't be missing the sight of the total tool determined to get in every shot broadcast from outside Westminster...


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## chrisd (Nov 28, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			I won't be missing the sight of the total tool determined to get in every shot broadcast from outside Westminster...
		
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Laura Kuenssberg??


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 28, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



*I'd like to see a breakdown of how they arrived at 39M... Still feel it was a figure plucked out of the air...*

And, when this is all done and dusted I won't be missing the sight of the total tool determined to get in every shot broadcast from outside Westminster...
		
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I'm pretty sure there was a bit more to it then randomly picking a figure out of the air, but you'd probably need to be a trained accountant or actuary to totally understand how that figure was arrived at.  Try this for a bit more background on it  https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-divorce-bill/


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## drdel (Nov 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd strap yourself in for the treasury report coming out today on the economic impact of the various types of Brexit then, especially the hard Brexit.  As it may not make pleasant reading for some.
		
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You may wish to note that Hammond says he's talking about GDP and "...in purely economics terms...." and there are numerous assumptions on how they've got to "up to 5%".  They make no allowance for any increase in the trade we already have with RoW where all predictions on world trade says 90% of future growth will be and since the EU has a mature and almost saturated market with low growth that rate may be proportionately higher..

In addition if we no longer pay the EU contribution there will be that cash that can be spent internal and externally that will influence both the velocity of inside cash and GDP.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 28, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Laura Kuenssberg??
		
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I was thinking more of the placard waving, blue clad, soppy hat wearing remainer...


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## bluewolf (Nov 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Well here's another but as its a positive view on WTO I guess its not acceptable.

It was also interesting to hear Hammond on the news this morning suggesting how much more expensive food imports would be to the UK due to WTO tariffs that would be applied.  He fails to say that its up to the UK not the EU what tariffs would be applied to our imports.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/whos-afraid-of-the-wto/

Click to expand...

And there are just as many highly negative ones. I take both with a pinch of salt. If you only accept the ones that confirm what you already believe then you won't actually learn anything.


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## Foxholer (Nov 28, 2018)

drdel said:



			You may wish to note that Hammond says he's talking about GDP and "...in purely economics terms...." and there are numerous assumptions on how they've got to "up to 5%".  They make no allowance for any increase in the trade we already have with RoW where all predictions on world trade says 90% of future growth will be and since the EU has a mature and almost saturated market with low growth that rate may be proportionately higher..

In addition if we no longer pay the EU contribution there will be that cash that can be spent internal and externally that will influence both the velocity of inside cash and GDP.
		
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You are 'conveniently' ignoring the fact that (allegedly) he states that while the May deal will reduce GDP by 40Bn compared to staying in, a 'No-Deal' Brexit would reduce GDP by 150Bn! Presumably there are assumptions about the level of 'other' trade deals that would be made in both those scenarios. And the (Nett) EU contribution - some of it returns to UK in various forms already - would surely have been taken into account too!

But the Brexit vote wasn't actually about Trade! It was about Independence!


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## MegaSteve (Nov 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm pretty sure there was a bit more to it then randomly picking a figure out of the air, but you'd probably need to be a trained accountant or actuary to totally understand how that figure was arrived at.  Try this for a bit more background on it  https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-divorce-bill/

Click to expand...

Have tended to believe the bigger the lie the more complicated you make the explanation...


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## jp5 (Nov 28, 2018)

It's not very complicated really....


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## MegaSteve (Nov 28, 2018)

jp5 said:



			It's not very complicated really....
		
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I will take a look when I get back from physio later...


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## drdel (Nov 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm pretty sure there was a bit more to it then randomly picking a figure out of the air, but you'd probably need to be a trained accountant or actuary to totally understand how that figure was arrived at.  Try this for a bit more background on it  https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-divorce-bill/

Click to expand...

HoL did form the opinion that 'legally' we could ignore the number!


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 28, 2018)

drdel said:



			HoL did form the opinion that 'legally' we could ignore the number!
		
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Legally we could probably do a lot of things, ignore the referendum result, delay Article 50, claim it was all a bad dream and wake up in the shower and none of this ever happened.  In reality who knows what will happen.


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## Foxholer (Nov 28, 2018)

drdel said:



			HoL did form the opinion that 'legally' we could ignore the number!
		
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And the EU could 'punish' the UK in return - and there'd possibly/probably be tit-for-tat reaction ad-nauseum! Not the best result for either side, and likely to quite seriously damage the UK economy - certainly if London's Financial dominance was 'attacked', as could quite simply/easily be done - with a knock-on effect on UK businesses!

https://www.bba.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/webversion-BQB-3-1.pdf


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd strap yourself in for the treasury report coming out today on the economic impact of the various types of Brexit then, especially the hard Brexit.  As it may not make pleasant reading for some.
		
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Of course it won't as the government want it to be negative. The treasury have been consistently wrong in their predictions and will make every effort to make their predictions and options appear as facts.  I believe nothing they say based on their track record.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course it won't as the government want it to be negative. The treasury have been consistently wrong in their predictions and will make every effort to make their predictions and options appear as facts.  I believe nothing they say based on their track record.
		
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Genuine question, who would you believe when it comes to economic forecasting of the impact of Brexit?  Is it just the case that no one can know for certain so it is a waste of time doing such things?  Or are some organisations so biased that they can not be trusted?


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## Foxholer (Nov 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course it won't as the government want it to be negative. The treasury have been consistently wrong in their predictions and will make every effort to make their predictions and options appear as facts.  I believe nothing they say based on their track record.
		
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Well, even the predicted 150Bn over 15 years (10Bn/year for those with no arithmetic skills!) is actually something of a drop in a bucket! UK's GDP is 2.6Trillion USD, down from 3 Trillion in 2014 - and have we noticed? Supposedly the period of austerity (since 2008's 'crash') is over, but has that even been noticeable - and with a declining GDP?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2018)

Mrs May at PMQ's avoids the awkward question [as usual] then boasts to Ian Blackford that Scotland voted for 13 Tory MP's.
What an achievement, especially as about half of them only got there on the backs of Scottish Labour votes.


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## Foxholer (Nov 28, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Mrs May at PMQ's avoids the awkward question [as usual]...
		
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That - and spinning a positve (for them) message - is exactly what the party in power is 'meant to do' at QT! It's only in subsequent examination (consequentials) that  the opposition can actually score any real points!


Doon frae Troon said:



			... then boasts to Ian Blackford that Scotland voted for 13 Tory MP's.
What an achievement, especially as about half of them only got there on the backs of Scottish Labour votes.
		
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How they got there is unimportant! The fact that they got there is what's really important - both to the Tories (obviously) and to Scotland (imo)!


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2018)

In the last 24 hours I've heard 4 official figures for the dip in the UK's economic performance, 3 of which are for No Deal.

-5.5%, -7.5%, -3.5%. The last 2 attributed to the Treasury. And -1.5% if the Deal is accepted.

Will there be a dip? Obviously. How long it will last for will depend on how the UK does with global deals, bearing in mind the sweeteners it can offer when it isn't tied to tariffs, quotas and corporate tax rates.

To repeat, there will, in my opinion, be a dip. But where 'o where is the credibility in _producing 3 different official figures? Once one lot was out there why the other 'officials' don't just shut the ... up I don't know. The credibility for those figures just gets blown out of the water by those that feel they need to put their bit out there._


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			In the last 24 hours I've heard 4 official figures for the dip in the UK's economic performance, 3 of which are for No Deal.

-5.5%, -7.5%, -3.5%. The last 2 attributed to the Treasury. And -1.5% if the Deal is accepted.

Will there be a dip? Obviously. How long it will last for will depend on how the UK does with global deals, bearing in mind the sweeteners it can offer when it isn't tied to tariffs, quotas and corporate tax rates.

To repeat, there will, in my opinion, be a dip. But where 'o where is the credibility in _producing 3 different official figures? Once one lot was out there why the other 'officials' don't just shut the ... up I don't know. The credibility for those figures just gets blown out of the water by those that feel they need to put their bit out there._

Click to expand...

I spoke too soon. There's now an 8%... unbelievable.

No deal Brexit would cause pound to crash, say Bank of England
The Bank of England has warned the pound would crash, inflation will soar and interest rates would have to rise in the event of a no deal disorderly Brexit.
In the event of a disorderly no deal, no transition Brexit, Britain's GDP could fall by 8% from its level in the first quarter of 2019, according to analysis of a worst case scenario by the Bank.
The unemployment rate would rise 7.5% and inflation would surge 6.5%. House prices are forecast to decline 30%, while commercial property prices are set to fall 48%. The pound would fall by 25% to less than parity against both the US dollar and the euro.
However, major British banks have "levels of capital and liquidity to withstand even a severe economic shock that could be associated with a disorderly Brexit", the Bank concluded from tests of banks' financial resilience.
Britain's banking system is "strong enough to continue to serve UK households and businesses even in the event of a disorderly Brexit", the Bank said.


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## IanM (Nov 28, 2018)

I am blaming you Hobbit.... but of course, the Spanish will be rounding you up and sticking you in an internment camp the day after Brexit!  Fallng GDP will be the least of your worries!

Full campaign now to stop it, which it will.  Pretty much as I have said since the day after Referendum.... shame the orig thread has gone


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2018)

IanM said:



			I am blaming you Hobbit.... but of course, the Spanish will be rounding you up and sticking you in an internment camp the day after Brexit!  Fallng GDP will be the least of your worries!

Full campaign now to stop it, which it will.  Pretty much as I have said since the day after Referendum.... shame the orig thread has gone
		
Click to expand...

Ha! My mum was Irish. They'll round up the Brits. There'll be cheap property up for grabs, and thanks god for index linked pensions.

I do find the current exaggerations very unhelpful. Unfortunately, many will want to believe the worst, and others will be clueless anyway.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 28, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			In the last 24 hours I've heard 4 official figures for the dip in the UK's economic performance, 3 of which are for No Deal.

-5.5%, -7.5%, -3.5%. The last 2 attributed to the Treasury. And -1.5% if the Deal is accepted.

Will there be a dip? Obviously. How long it will last for will depend on how the UK does with global deals, bearing in mind the sweeteners it can offer when it isn't tied to tariffs, quotas and corporate tax rates.

To repeat, there will, in my opinion, be a dip. But where 'o where is the credibility in _producing 3 different official figures? Once one lot was out there why the other 'officials' don't just shut the ... up I don't know. The credibility for those figures just gets blown out of the water by those that feel they need to put their bit out there._

Click to expand...

Probably because crapping our economic forecasts is some organisations reason for being so they kind of feel they have to. In the treasury document there are a wide number of figures in different scenarios, so I imagine the reported headlines in the media are not always comparing apples with apples https://assets.publishing.service.g...ber_EU_Exit_-_Long-term_economic_analysis.pdf

However the fact that every forecast predicts that we will be worse means that chances are, that will happen to some degree, with a hard brexit more likely to cause more damage. How people interpret that is purely up to them.

Some may say '_OK I understand that that is likely to happen but I am OK with it in order so we can reach the goals around x,y and z that I want to see from brexit_'.  Some may look at that and say 'j_esus wept, why the hell are we intentionally doing this to ourselves'_.  And others may decide to ignore all of it and pretend it will never happen as the figures do not identically match up.  Personally response 1 and 2 is fine with me, but response 3 is a bit head in the sand for my liking.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

Here we go again, rolling out the Treasury and BOE naysayers, Were Doomed, blah blah, no jobs blah blah, no food blah blah, prices up houses down blah blah, inflation up pound down blah blah blah. They will be rolling out Obama, Major and Hezza soon. Were doomed I tell you Doomed.


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## bluewolf (Nov 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Here we go again, rolling out the Treasury and BOE naysayers, Were Doomed, blah blah, no jobs blah blah, no food blah blah, prices up houses down blah blah, inflation up pound down blah blah blah. They will be rolling out Obama, Major and Hezza soon. Were doomed I tell you Doomed.
		
Click to expand...

Says the man who happily rolls out the opposite end of the forecast spectrum as evidence of the promised land. 
You're just as bad as those that believe the doom-mongers. Please tell me you can see this?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Here we go again, rolling out the Treasury and BOE naysayers, Were Doomed, blah blah, no jobs blah blah, no food blah blah, prices up houses down blah blah, inflation up pound down blah blah blah. They will be rolling out Obama, Major and Hezza soon. Were doomed I tell you Doomed.
		
Click to expand...

What if they are right ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46377309

What if Brexit does make us worse off overall - is it worth leaving them.

Leaving such a big trade market with zero other trades in place etc etc could well leave a big hole in place, people could see us as a lame duck to exploit 

All this â€œlets be brave etc etcâ€ is it based on reality or dreams ? 

Is there a chance of being hit by a bigger recession? Can anyone write that off 

This could be the worse thing we as a nation could do, and some of us on here have a long working life ahead of us.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 28, 2018)

All of this â€˜Mystic Megâ€™ prediction rubbish is doing my head in. NOBODY KNOWS what will happenâ€¦â€¦NOBODY!!! This is nothing but scaremongering tactics to make the great unwashed think that their considered vote to leave the EU was wholeheartedly wrong and we should all feel very guilty (and IT WAS a considered vote, not the brainwashed and blinkered vote that patronising remoaners still keep spewing on about)

Basically, according to soothsayers like Hammond and Carney, if the country goes down the toilet, it will be all our fault and a curse on all of our houses. It is straight to â€˜the naughty stepâ€™ for all of us (bloody â€˜ell, thatâ€™ll be crowded)

Until I see for myself exactly what occurs, I couldnâ€™t give a monkeys what these doom merchants predict. They can stick their forecasts up their arrisâ€¦..


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Says the man who happily rolls out the opposite end of the forecast spectrum as evidence of the promised land.
You're just as bad as those that believe the doom-mongers. Please tell me you can see this?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for your observations.
I see the situation from a viewpoint based on my own considerations and not as a part of the establishment working to scare the public into accepting a very bad deal.  So No I dont see that.


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## drdel (Nov 28, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Well, even the predicted 150Bn over 15 years* (10Bn/year for those with no arithmetic skills!) *is actually something of a drop in a bucket! UK's GDP is 2.6Trillion USD, down from 3 Trillion in 2014 - and have we noticed? Supposedly the period of austerity (since 2008's 'crash') is over, but has that even been noticeable - and with a declining GDP?
		
Click to expand...

I know you like to be the oracle but there is such a thing as inflation so your arithmetic average of Â£10bn pa in 2033 is only worth somewhere north of Â£7.5bn in today's money, set against only moderate growth in the Â£3.5tn over the same period. It ain't worth bothering too much especially as the EU keeps raising its budget significantly higher than inflation so the rise in the UK's potential contribution could easily dwarf Hammond's number!!

In fact Hammond's paper is pretty devoid of stated assumptions on inflation.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What if they are right ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46377309

What if Brexit does make us worse off overall - is it worth leaving them.

Leaving such a big trade market with zero other trades in place etc etc could well leave a big hole in place, people could see us as a lame duck to exploit

All this â€œlets be brave etc etcâ€ is it based on reality or dreams ?

Is there a chance of being hit by a bigger recession? Can anyone write that off

This could be the worse thing we as a nation could do, and some of us on here have a long working life ahead of us.
		
Click to expand...

Then maybe you have more to gain from our independence.

As i keep telling you, you are entitled to your opinions and concerns, just like I am. Using this argument suggesting I am older than you so have less to lose is a rather naive and poor way to debate.   You know nothing about me, my family or responsibilities. I do not level this type of insulting behaviour at you and would respectively ask you to do the same.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 28, 2018)

Positive spin .. those with savings will get some interest ... ðŸ¤£
Negative spin ...it wonâ€™t be enough ... ðŸ¤ª


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## bluewolf (Nov 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

You're welcome.


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2018)

IanM said:



			Full campaign now to stop it, which it will.  Pretty much as I have said since the day after Referendum.... shame the orig thread has gone
		
Click to expand...

And now Labour policy is, apparently, to demand a second referendum if they can't have a GE. Unfortunately nobody has told Jeeza about the policy.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			You're welcome.
		
Click to expand...

Please re-read my reply. I had to go out urgently before finishing it and saved it inadvertently


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## bluewolf (Nov 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Please re-read my reply. I had to go out urgently before finishing it and saved it inadvertently
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
I preferred your first response. It seemed really civilised ðŸ˜‰

Anyway, I disagree with you. You are posting links to articles written by "Brexiteers" and using them to illustrate your point. In that way you are legitimising them and passing them on as likely scenarios. 
You can't forward one biased side of the debate, then pooh pooh the other side as a "Remainer Conspiracy" without expecting to be pulled up on it.


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## Slime (Nov 28, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What if they are right ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46377309

*What if* Brexit does make us worse off overall - is it worth leaving them.

Leaving such a big trade market with zero other trades in place etc etc could well leave a big hole in place, people could see us as a lame duck to exploit

All this â€œlets be brave etc etcâ€ is it based on reality or dreams ?

Is there a chance of being hit by a bigger recession? Can anyone write that off

*This could be the worse thing we as a nation could do*, and some of us on here have a long working life ahead of us.
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't it also be the best thing we, as a nation, could do?


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## bluewolf (Nov 28, 2018)

Slime said:



			Couldn't it also be the best thing we, as a nation, could do?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, and it could be the worst. 

Debate over. Let's all retire for sherry and buttered crumpets in front of the fire.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2018)

Slime said:



			Couldn't it also be the best thing we, as a nation, could do?
		
Click to expand...

Yes it could be - but then Iâ€™m not the one throwing around things like â€œremoanersâ€ and scaremongering etc etc - seems some arenâ€™t willing to accept things could go monumentally tits up. Iâ€™m scared for the future when a country leaves the biggest free market on the planet - that for me adds nothing positive right now


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m scared for the future when a country leaves the biggest free market on the planet - that for me adds nothing positive right now
		
Click to expand...

Im not sure there's any such thing as a free market, we are one of a few paying a large amount to be part of a free market.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 28, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes it could be - but then Iâ€™m not the one throwing around things like â€œremoanersâ€ and scaremongering etc etc - seems some arenâ€™t willing to accept things could go monumentally tits up. Iâ€™m scared for the future when a country leaves the biggest free market on the planet - that for me adds nothing positive right now
		
Click to expand...

Membership costs too much with too many strings attached... Has provided the platform/mechanisms to see too many UK jobs being spirited away...

Has allowed businesses to stop investing in 'team UK' which is why they love being in so much...


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## Slime (Nov 28, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Yes, and it could be the worst.

Debate over. Let's all retire for sherry and buttered crumpets in front of the fire.....
		
Click to expand...


I love crumpets, especially with syrup & grated cheese.


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## bluewolf (Nov 28, 2018)

How the rightâ€™s Brexit dream crumbled - New Statesman
https://apple.news/ALUU__GESQyK1gWFy8uhOyg

Interesting article in the New Statesman. Encapsulates most of my issues with Brexit. It's a backdoor way to introduce Total Free Markets using the Chicago Boys model championed by Milton Friedman.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
I preferred your first response. It seemed really civilised ðŸ˜‰

Anyway, I disagree with you. You are posting links to articles written by "Brexiteers" and using them to illustrate your point. In that way you are legitimising them and passing them on as likely scenarios.
You can't forward one biased side of the debate, then pooh pooh the other side as a "Remainer Conspiracy" without expecting to be pulled up on it.
		
Click to expand...

Yes i can if the article is in line with my own thinking. I used them as they describe the way WTO can be a suitable way for us to trade, they also explain it better than I can.  I disagree with the other side or 'pooh pooh' it as you suggest due to my fairly long term belief that the establishment is attempting to stitch up the brexit outcome.  Surely this just stating an opinion. Maybe a few more should try it rather than using personal slights to pooh pooh someone else's view.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes it could be - but then Iâ€™m not the one throwing around things like â€œremoanersâ€ and scaremongering etc etc - seems some arenâ€™t willing to accept things could go monumentally tits up. Iâ€™m scared for the future when a country leaves the biggest free market on the planet - that for me adds nothing positive right now
		
Click to expand...

Remoaner, thats not a nice thing to call someone.


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## bluewolf (Nov 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes i can if the article is in line with my own thinking. I used them as they describe the way WTO can be a suitable way for us to trade, they also explain it better than I can.  I disagree with the other side or 'pooh pooh' it as you suggest due to my fairly long term belief that the establishment is attempting to stitch up the brexit outcome.  Surely this just stating an opinion. Maybe a few more should try it rather than using personal slights to pooh pooh someone else's view.
		
Click to expand...

We'll agree to disagree then, because I think you're wrong and you mistakenly think you're right ðŸ˜‰


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## Foxholer (Nov 28, 2018)

drdel said:



			I know you like to be the oracle but there is such a thing as inflation so your arithmetic average of Â£10bn pa in 2033 is only worth somewhere north of Â£7.5bn in today's money, set against only moderate growth in the Â£3.5tn over the same period. It ain't worth bothering too much especially as the EU keeps raising its budget significantly higher than inflation so the rise in the UK's potential contribution could easily dwarf Hammond's number!!

In fact Hammond's paper is pretty devoid of stated assumptions on inflation.
		
Click to expand...

I'm unsure of either whether inflation is considered in the stated 150Bn, nor actually how that figure was derived (any ideas?0! My point was that it is actually quite a small value compared to the overall GDP. If, as you suggest, it doesn't consider inflation, then it is indeed, relatively smaller! And I agree that UK's membership fee would likely rise. It might even lose its Rebate, (something already pushed for by some countries)!

As usual, whoever has specified that value probably used the 'Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics' model, so more than the usual amount of salt should be taken with it!

Worth noting that the report does state that 'in all scenarios considered in this publication, the economy will continue to grow in the long run'!

What does seem clear is that 'No Deal' is more costly than any of the other models, but May's proposal wasn't one of them. However, as I stated in an earlier post.....*Brexit is not about Financial Costs/Benefits; it's about Independence*!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			We'll agree to disagree then, because I think you're wrong and you mistakenly think you're right ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2018)

Switzerland currently enjoys a unique relationship with the EU.
It is a member of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) but, unlike other EFTA members such as Norway, is not a member of the European Economic Area (EEA).
As such, unlike the other members of the EEA, it enjoys access to the EU's single market while being under no legal obligation to adopt new EU legislation.
It is outside the EU's customs union and so able to strike individual trade deals as it pleases.

The cost of membership is Freedom of Movement.

Remind what May's deal looks like....


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## bluewolf (Nov 28, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Switzerland currently enjoys a unique relationship with the EU.
It is a member of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) but, unlike other EFTA members such as Norway, is not a member of the European Economic Area (EEA).
As such, unlike the other members of the EEA, it enjoys access to the EU's single market while being under no legal obligation to adopt new EU legislation.
It is outside the EU's customs union and so able to strike individual trade deals as it pleases.

The cost of membership is Freedom of Movement.

Remind what May's deal looks like....

Click to expand...

Well, let's see if Freedom of movement is a deal breaker then? It was one of May's red lines. And I'm sure that immigration wasn't the main reason for most Leave voters. 
So, who'd accept that Deal?


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## robinthehood (Nov 28, 2018)

House price down. Pound gone to hell. But at least we have taken  back control. 
Cheers


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2018)

Maybe all the young people complaining about old people voting for Brexit should be thanking them instead. If we have a hard Brexit and house prices fall by a third all of the young people that can't afford to get on the property ladder will find it more affordable. Old people get Brexit, young people can buy a house. It's a win-win situation.

Assuming of course that the economy isn't totally wrecked and the young people still have a job.


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## Foxholer (Nov 28, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Switzerland currently enjoys a unique relationship with the EU.
It is a member of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) but, unlike other EFTA members such as Norway, is not a member of the European Economic Area (EEA).
As such, unlike the other members of the EEA, it enjoys access to the EU's single market while being under no legal obligation to adopt new EU legislation.
It is outside the EU's customs union and so able to strike individual trade deals as it pleases.

*The cost of membership is Freedom of Movement.*

Remind what May's deal looks like....

Click to expand...

Switzerland's 'Freedom of Movement' is not exactly 'Freedom of Movement'! At least not the same as it is in the EU 'proper'/EEA!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Maybe all the young people complaining about old people voting for Brexit should be thanking them instead. If we have a hard Brexit and house prices fall by a third all of the young people that can't afford to get on the property ladder will find it more affordable. Old people get Brexit, young people can buy a house. It's a win-win situation.

Assuming of course that the economy isn't totally wrecked and the young people still have a job. 

Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking, all those rich old folk living in Â£300,000 houses take a Â£95,000 loss and house prices for first time buyers become as cheap as chips.
Looks a bit like Marxism has taken back control.
Looking on the bright side we won't have to worry too much about inheritance tax.


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## Beezerk (Nov 28, 2018)

I honestly never heard trade mentioned once in the run up to the referendum, if I did I don't remember anyway. Now everyone and his dog is an expert ðŸ˜‚


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## Slab (Nov 29, 2018)

Haven't looked at this thread since the referendum result, how's it going, all good?


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## PieMan (Nov 29, 2018)

Slab said:



			Haven't looked at this thread since the referendum result, how's it going, all good?
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

I'll sum it up for you:
- the Tories, especially Johnson and Mogg are nasty/spineless/evil/Nazis (delete as appropriate);

- all leavers are racist/uneducated;

- all remainers do not understand democracy;

- we need to keep holding referendums until remain wins;

- the Government's plans for leaving must be seen by the public (although preferably a forum member);

- although [despite there being plans] there are clearly no plans;

- where's my unicorn I was promised;

- don't forget Scotland voted remain;

- you lost; we won; get over it;

- can we please just get on with it;

- a crankshaft for a mini goes on a European tour, visiting all 28 EU member states for a bit of a holiday (because it can as it has full freedom of movement) before deciding which one it wants to live in.

Think that's about it!


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## Slab (Nov 29, 2018)

PieMan said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

I'll sum it up for you:
- the Tories, especially Johnson and Mogg are nasty/spineless/evil/Nazis (delete as appropriate);

- all leavers are racist/uneducated;

- all remainers do not understand democracy;

- we need to keep holding referendums until remain wins;

- the Government's plans for leaving must be seen by the public (although preferably a forum member);

- although [despite there being plans] there are clearly no plans;

- where's my unicorn I was promised;

- don't forget Scotland voted remain;

- you lost; we won; get over it;

- can we please just get on with it;

- a crankshaft for a mini goes on a European tour, visiting all 28 EU member states for a bit of a holiday (because it can as it has full freedom of movement) before deciding which one it wants to live in.

Think that's about it!
		
Click to expand...


Seems pretty straightforward, I'm surprised 40 millions adults didn't see that coming!


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 29, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That's what I was thinking, all those rich old folk living in Â£300,000 houses take a Â£95,000 loss and house prices for first time buyers become as cheap as chips.
Looks a bit like Marxism has taken back control.
Looking on the bright side we won't have to worry too much about inheritance tax.

Click to expand...

That's the spirit Doon, look on the bright side. I also forgot the biggest benefit, which is that if the pound collapses I'll be much cheaper for EU countries to hire (which is 90% of my work) and means I can put my day rate up and earn more money.

So as you can see, it's not all doom and gloom. 

What do we want? A hard Brexit. When do we want it? Now. 


Assuming that I will still be allowed to work in the EU after a hard Brexit.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 29, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's the spirit Doon, look on the bright side. I also forgot the biggest benefit, which is that if the pound collapses I'll be much cheaper for EU countries to hire (which is 90% of my work) and means I can put my day rate up and earn more money.

So as you can see, it's not all doom and gloom.

What do we want? A hard Brexit. When do we want it? Now. 


Assuming that I will still be allowed to work in the EU after a hard Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

But if the Â£ collapses we will not be able to afford to pay all those millions of immigrants that are queuing up to work in good old blighty.
Ohh hang on, that has already happened.

Good to see we can still keep our sense of Scottish humour...â€¦.Latest news......Elvis spent more time in Scotland than May


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## drdel (Nov 29, 2018)

PieMan said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

I'll sum it up for you:
- the Tories, especially Johnson and Mogg are nasty/spineless/evil/Nazis (delete as appropriate);

- all leavers are racist/uneducated;

- all remainers do not understand democracy;

- we need to keep holding referendums until remain wins;

- the Government's plans for leaving must be seen by the public (although preferably a forum member);

- although [despite there being plans] there are clearly no plans;

- where's my unicorn I was promised;

- don't forget Scotland voted remain;

- you lost; we won; get over it;

- can we please just get on with it;

- a *crankshaft *for a mini goes on a European tour, visiting all 28 EU member states for a bit of a holiday (because it can as it has full freedom of movement) before deciding which one it wants to live in.

Think that's about it!
		
Click to expand...

And we still don't let facts get in the way! 

If I remember correctly the 'crankshaft' was actually a camshaft in the original post (ain't bothered to check). A component which is at the top rather than the base of an engine. I guess not knowing the top and bottom of things is at least consistent with most of the logic in the thread. (unless its a 'boxer')


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## Slime (Nov 29, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			But if the Â£ collapses we will not be able to afford to pay all those millions of immigrants that are queuing up to work in good old blighty.
Ohh hang on, that has already happened.

Good to see we can still keep our sense of Scottish humour...â€¦.Latest news......*Elvis spent more time in Scotland than May*

Click to expand...

 ............................... Elvis spent time in May?
I hope her husband isn't on this forum.


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Switzerland currently enjoys a unique relationship with the EU.
It is a member of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) but, unlike other EFTA members such as Norway, is not a member of the European Economic Area (EEA).
As such, unlike the other members of the EEA, it enjoys access to the EU's single market while being under no legal obligation to adopt new EU legislation.
It is outside the EU's customs union and so able to strike individual trade deals as it pleases.

The cost of membership is Freedom of Movement.

Remind what May's deal looks like....

Click to expand...

But they do have to wait an extra six months for the release of any new medicines, allegedly.


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			House price down. Pound gone to hell. But at least we have taken  back control.
Cheers
		
Click to expand...

Which of the 3 doom and gloom predictions are we going on here.


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## rudebhoy (Nov 29, 2018)

Funny how a few months ago, all you heard from May was no deal was better than a bad deal.

Now she is telling us a bad deal is better than no deal!

She came out with another classic this week, claiming that having a 2nd referendum would be ignoring the will of the people ...


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## bluewolf (Nov 29, 2018)

rudebhoy said:



			Funny how a few months ago, all you heard from May was no deal was better than a bad deal.

Now she is telling us a bad deal is better than no deal!

She came out with another classic this week, claiming that having a 2nd referendum would be ignoring the will of the people ...
		
Click to expand...

I do like the paradox that states that holding a 2nd democratic vote would be non-democratic. As though the main consideration of Democracy is time.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I do like the paradox that states that holding a 2nd democratic vote would be non-democratic. As though the main consideration of Democracy is time.
		
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I think one thing that comes out of all this is that democracy is a multifaceted and complex concept that can be defined, and therefore used as evidence to back up a point, in many different ways. Depending on your viewpoint.


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## IanM (Nov 29, 2018)

Not a paradox, it demonstrates the point that any vote against the EU will be ignored.  

If 2nd Ref votes "leave," we'll have a rerun of the past 30 months of messing about a scare stories... a Remain win will be lauded as a triumph for democracy.....when in fact will usher in the end of this country as a soverign state.


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## bluewolf (Nov 29, 2018)

IanM said:



			Not a paradox, it demonstrates the point that any vote against the EU will be ignored.  

If 2nd Ref votes "leave," we'll have a rerun of the past 30 months of messing about a scare stories... a Remain win will be lauded as a triumph for democracy.....when in fact will usher in the end of this country as a soverign state.
		
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"In your opinion"

Quite an emotive statement. It would have had more impact if shortened by a sentence or 2.

If 2nd Ref votes "leave," we'll have a rerun of the past 30 months
a Remain win will be lauded as a triumph for democracy.....


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2018)

IanM said:



			Not a paradox, it demonstrates the point that any vote against the EU will be ignored.

If 2nd Ref votes "leave," we'll have a rerun of the past 30 months of messing about a scare stories... a Remain win will be lauded as a triumph for democracy.....when in fact will usher in the end of this country as a soverign state.
		
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Surely if we are already in the EU then remaining in it can't usher in the 'end of this country as a sovereign state'.  As that would mean we currently are one whilst being part of the EU.  So why leave to become one?  I'm confused by the leavers logic there.  Not for the 1st time.


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## IanM (Nov 29, 2018)

....you havent been listening to the recent speeches by the EU Leaders have you...   they are abundantly clear about what is planned....   hope that is clear enough for you.


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## bluewolf (Nov 29, 2018)

IanM said:



			....you havent been listening to the recent speeches by the EU Leaders have you...   they are abundantly clear about what is planned....   hope that is clear enough for you.
		
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I plan to win the lottery and retire to the Caribbean with a bevy of Swedish beauties. It's probably not going to happen though.


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## IanM (Nov 29, 2018)

you might be right....But why are you ignoring specific comments from EU leaders?  But,  hopefully Tusk/Merkels call for addtional removal of powers from nat governements and EU army etc will be the tipping point for revolt....and the break up of the EU.   (as a wanna be country..)  The Italians response to the rejection of their national budget by some randoms in Brussels may have already started  this....and former members of the Eastern Bloc are not happy over immigration.... but we only hear about the UK objecting!


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2018)

When talking about a debate on arguably the most important decision parliament has had to make in decades, the BBC have reported that 

_Mr Corbyn claimed he preferred ITV's bid because the BBC plan clashed with the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here! _

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to UK politics in 2018. You sure you want this lot to take back control?


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## bluewolf (Nov 29, 2018)

IanM said:



			you might be right....But why are you ignoring specific comments from EU leaders?  But,  hopefully Tusk/Merkels call for addtional removal of powers from nat governements and EU army etc will be the tipping point for revolt....and the break up of the EU.   (as a wanna be country..)  The Italians response to the rejection of their national budget by some randoms in Brussels may have already started  this....and former members of the Eastern Bloc are not happy over immigration.... but we only hear about the UK objecting!
		
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I'm ignoring nothing. I'm giving it the consideration it deserves.


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## IanM (Nov 29, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I'm ignoring nothing. I'm giving it the consideration it deserves.
		
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Excellently oblique answer. Are you in favour of the Federalism they propose, dont believe it will happen or have selective hearing of issues.?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 29, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I do like the paradox that states that holding a 2nd democratic vote would be non-democratic. As though the main consideration of Democracy is time.
		
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Once in a lifetime, according to some.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 29, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Once in a lifetime, according to some.
		
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Salmond...


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## rudebhoy (Nov 29, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			When talking about a debate on arguably the most important decision parliament has had to make in decades, the BBC have reported that

_Mr Corbyn claimed he preferred ITV's bid because the BBC plan clashed with the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here! _

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to UK politics in 2018. You sure you want this lot to take back control?
		
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Rightly or wrongly, the final of I'm a Celeb will get a massive audience, BBC at it by scheduling the debate to clash with it. Surely they can move it to another slot?


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## jp5 (Nov 29, 2018)

It's a pointless debate anyway - why would anyone watch it?

Can understand there being a televised debate prior to a general election and prior to the referendum. But there's no decision for the people to make, so why waste their time hearing the same old soundbites for the sake of it?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 29, 2018)

jp5 said:



			It's a pointless debate anyway - why would anyone watch it?

Can understand there being a televised debate prior to a general election and prior to the referendum. But there's no decision for the people to make, so why waste their time hearing the same old soundbites for the sake of it?
		
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Exactly. If they were being true to their beliefs then May would be saying she wants to stay in the EU and Corbyn would argue for coming out.  But because of the political omnishambles chuff knows that they will be arguing for, or what the point of it is.

Well actually I can see what May is doing as chances are she'll tie Corbyn in in knots about this as he has been so indecisive and absent from a lot of the debate. So she will end up looking relatively strong and increase her chances of MPs passing the current deal.  So it will be a debate purely to try and convince MPs to back her in the vote. Though why they could not do that in the 4 or 5 days they have in Parliament to debate this I don't know. Although I have never up to yet watched minor celebrities eating kangaroo anuses, that may be the preferable option on that night...


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## PieMan (Nov 29, 2018)

jp5 said:



			It's a pointless debate anyway - why would anyone watch it?
		
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Indeed - we all know Harry Redknapp is going to win I'm A Celebrity........!!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## bluewolf (Nov 29, 2018)

IanM said:



			Excellently oblique answer. Are you in favour of the Federalism they propose, dont believe it will happen or have selective hearing of issues.? 

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I don't believe it will happen in the short or medium term. In the long term, with climate issues coming to the fore, Over-population, fuel shortages etc then I believe it's inevitable. And we'll probably welcome it. 

Hope that helps.


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## drdel (Nov 29, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I plan to win the lottery and retire to the Caribbean with *a bevy of Swedish beauties*. It's probably not going to happen though.
		
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Trying to exploit immigrants and, I guess, you'll want to retain theirfreedom of movement !!!


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## bluewolf (Nov 29, 2018)

drdel said:



			Trying to exploit immigrants and, I guess, you'll want to retain theirfreedom of movement !!!
		
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I hope so, because there'll be plenty of movement ðŸ˜‚


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I hope so, because there'll be plenty of movement ðŸ˜‚
		
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A true golfer, cannot distinguish between expectations and capabilities


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			When talking about a debate on arguably the most important decision parliament has had to make in decades, the BBC have reported that 

_Mr Corbyn claimed he preferred ITV's bid because the BBC plan clashed with the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here! _

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to UK politics in 2018. You sure you want this lot to take back control?
		
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That is showing he is more in touch with the voters than other mpâ€™s.. he has rightly clicked that If it is on at the same time as something like celeb then people might be watching how actually could do with learning something ... thatâ€™s nothing against celeb but if you put something on at same time as something thatâ€™s popular thatâ€™s also boring to a lot of people they wonâ€™t tune in....


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2018)

I'm a Brexiteer, get me out of here.


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## 2blue (Nov 30, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm a Brexiteer, get me out of here.
		
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Yes please


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Surely if we are already in the EU then remaining in it can't usher in the 'end of this country as a sovereign state'.  As that would mean we currently are one whilst being part of the EU.  So why leave to become one?  I'm confused by the leavers logic there.  Not for the 1st time.
		
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I think you have misunderstood this. What Leavers have been asking for is that the UK regains our position as a Sovereign State.  Currently we are not one as we answer to an unelected bureaucracy who can over rule our laws. That's not sovereign.   Hope that's resolved your paradox.


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## Hobbit (Nov 30, 2018)

An interesting point from Thursday's Question Time. The UK will not be worse off post-Brexit. It is that growth will not be as good.... food for thought?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			An interesting point from Thursday's Question Time. The UK will not be worse off post-Brexit. It is that growth will not be as good.... food for thought?
		
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Semantics, if everyone else gets a 10 grand pay rise and you get a 10 quid pay rise, you are still personally better off than you were before, but a lot relatively worse off when compared to others. And business will mostly want to be in the place where everyone is getting an extra 10 grand instead of 10 quid.  Economic growth is needed to sustain and even improve everyone's standard of living and a lot of companies and employers will want to be in markets with the most growth. So deliberately choosing to have less of it does not seem the most sensible idea.


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## Hobbit (Nov 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Semantics, if everyone else gets a 10 grand pay rise and you get a 10 quid pay rise, you are still personally better off than you were before, but a lot relatively worse off when compared to others. And business will mostly want to be in the place where everyone is getting an extra 10 grand instead of 10 quid.  Economic growth is needed to sustain and even improve everyone's standard of living and a lot of companies and employers will want to be in markets with the most growth. So deliberately choosing to have less of it does not seem the most sensible idea.
		
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I can't disagree with any of that. Equally, as you say its semantics. Some are willing to take a hit and not be under Brussels' rule.


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## bluewolf (Nov 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I can't disagree with any of that. Equally, as you say its semantics. Some are willing to take a hit and not be under Brussels' rule.
		
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And not one single person in the entire World knows what that hit will be, and most don't understand just how much/little we are under Brussels' rule.. I think that sums up the last few years doesn't it?


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## Hobbit (Nov 30, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			And not one single person in the entire World knows what that hit will be, and most don't understand just how much/little we are under Brussels' rule.. I think that sums up the last few years doesn't it?
		
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I think, in terms of Brussels' rule, there was a great piece in The Times about how many times our government had objected to laws made in Brussels. In the early days the UK lost about 67% 0f those objections. In the last 5 years the UK lost 82% of those objections. Add to that, Blair gave up the veto in the majority of the areas the UK had previously held a veto and you get a feel for where the UK is in terms of its own sovereignty.

As for growth or fall; an educated guess can be made based on current trading with the EU. But you are right, no one knows what new trade deals will be signed with the rest of the world that would offset any losses. And even after that, there's still the changes the UK could make to tariffs and corporation taxes. Its as long as a piece of string.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 30, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			And most don't understand just how much/little we are under Brussels' rule.. I think that sums up the last few years doesn't it?
		
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n

I believe too much has been signed away on our behalf without first asking if that's what we wanted... Also, it's an ever growing moneypit we can neither afford or justify...


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## Hobbit (Nov 30, 2018)

Donald Tusk has told UK MP's that is either Theresa May's deal, no deal or no Brexit. There will be no more negotiating. I do wish he'd kept his mouth shut. There's nothing like being strong armed to get the fence sitters to jump the other way.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Semantics, if everyone else gets a 10 grand pay rise and you get a 10 quid pay rise, you are still personally better off than you were before, but a lot relatively worse off when compared to others. And business will mostly want to be in the place where everyone is getting an extra 10 grand instead of 10 quid.  Economic growth is needed to sustain and even improve everyone's standard of living and a lot of companies and employers will want to be in markets with the most growth. So deliberately choosing to have less of it does not seem the most sensible idea.
		
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When the establishment roll out the Treasury and BOE to tell us how grim a life we will be living in case of a No Deal they do not mention that we will not be worse off by it but possibly not quite as well off. They deliberately attempt to scare people into believing they will be worse off than they are now.  At no point do they make a single example of areas where we could be better off. It  stinks of a stitch up.


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## IanM (Nov 30, 2018)

I have more respect for the EU if "my president" could appear for work sobber, and wearing matching shoes!


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## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			When the establishment roll out the Treasury and BOE to tell us how grim a life we will be living in case of a No Deal they do not mention that we will not be worse off by it but possibly not quite as well off. They deliberately attempt to scare people into believing they will be worse off than they are now.  At no point do they make a single example of areas where we could be better off. It  stinks of a stitch up.
		
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Perhaps that's because, in every 'financial' area,* it's expected that we will be 'worse off'*! At least iin comparison with remaining in EU!

But remember... Brexit is not financial advantage - it's about independence/self-determination!  Oh... and control of migration!


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## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			When the establishment roll out the Treasury and BOE to tell us how grim a life we will be living in case of a No Deal they do not mention that we will not be worse off by it but possibly not quite as well off. They deliberately attempt to scare people into believing they will be worse off than they are now.  At no point do they make a single example of areas where we could be better off. It  stinks of a stitch up.
		
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Actually, according to the report, they predict that in all scenarios UK's GDP will rise! Just that 'No Deal' provides the least increase!

Remember...Brexit is not about improving UK's economy...It's about improving UK's control of its own destiny!


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Donald Tusk has told UK MP's that is either Theresa May's deal, no deal or no Brexit. There will be no more negotiating. I do wish he'd kept his mouth shut. There's nothing like being strong armed to get the fence sitters to jump the other way.
		
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To be fair TMay and some of her more loyal supporters has been saying that constantly for a few days now. And may be, just may be he is telling the truth from his EU perspective in that if we go back suggesting a Norway Canada Plus Plus Minus Divide By or whatever is the current latest idea is, he has got authority from the rest of the EU to tell us to do one?


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## Foxholer (Nov 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			...Add to that, Blair gave up the veto in the majority of the areas the UK had previously held a veto and you get a feel for where the UK is in terms of its own sovereignty.
...
		
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UK wasn't the only EU member that lost the power of Veto! Most (perhaps even all) rulings that reach the voting stage 'only' require a majority based on member count and population percentage.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			When the establishment roll out the Treasury and BOE to tell us how grim a life we will be living in case of a No Deal they do not mention that we will not be worse off by it but possibly not quite as well off. They deliberately attempt to scare people into believing they will be worse off than they are now.  At no point do they make a single example of areas where we could be better off. It  stinks of a stitch up.
		
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But it was an economic forecast/guess based on economics. As far as I could tell they made a few assumptions about trade deals.  But the Treasury are not going to start talking about controlling immigration, blue passports, getting out of the fisheries policy etc etc in that report.

Also as mentioned above, the wording about being worse off is semantics.  If your wage increases never keep up with inflation then you are getting more money, but the longer it continues you will be relatively worse off compared with what you would have been if your wages matches inflation.  So yes it is a lie to say we will be absolutely worse off, as in we will have negative growth in some scenarios.  But we will be relatively worse off compared with what would have happened if we would be staying in (according to the forecasts).  So I suppose people can decide themselves if being absolutely or relatively worse off is more important to their standard of living, pensions, wages etc etc.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be fair TMay and some of her more loyal supporters has been saying that constantly for a few days now. And may be, just may be he is telling the truth from his EU perspective in that if we go back suggesting a Norway Canada Plus Plus Minus Divide By or whatever is the current latest idea is, he has got authority from the rest of the EU to tell us to do one?
		
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Maybe it's time for a #PeoplesVote then. Two options for the public to choose from - Do we want to accept May's deal or do we want to leave with no deal? 

I find it strange that only a few weeks ago Barnier was still suggesting that a Canada+++ type deal was still available and now they are saying it's May's deal or nothing. It must purely be coincidental that this comes at a time just after the latest forecasts have been released all showing that May's deal is the least worst option for Brexit. It feels as though they're trying to railroad us into accepting May's deal. And "they" isn't just the EU it's the government as well.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Maybe it's time for a #PeoplesVote then. Two options for the public to choose from - Do we want to accept May's deal or do we want to leave with no deal?

I find it strange that only a few weeks ago Barnier was still suggesting that a Canada+++ type deal was still available and now they are saying it's May's deal or nothing. It must purely be coincidental that this comes at a time just after the latest forecasts have been released all showing that May's deal is the least worst option for Brexit. *It feels as though they're trying to railroad us into accepting May's deal. And "they" isn't just the EU it's the government as well*.
		
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Well to be honest I suspect they are. May sees it is the deal that will ensure she stays in a job and also in her opinion, do the least worse damage to the economy. As once the Tories screw up the economy they will lose a big stick they regularly use to beat up Labour with. And the EU probably see it as the best compromise for their members. A no deal is is no ones advantage economically (although it may well be politically for some elements) and I doubt there is much more time to get anything else sorted that will go anywhere near pleasing those who want it softer and those who want it harder. Or even those who don't want to pull out at all.

And I suspect there will be too much uproar with a peoples vote with only those 2 options as certain people will also want the 'Not go ahead after all' option on the ballot paper as well.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			And I suspect there will be too much uproar with a peoples vote with only those 2 options as certain people will also want the 'Not go ahead after all' option on the ballot paper as well.
		
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I would assume that any second referendum would have to be a simple binary choice which in itself is going to cause massive division. You will have one group that want Remain as an option which means that you then have to either have May's deal or no deal as the second option. You will then have another group that will say we've already voted to leave so this vote should only be about how we leave (as per my suggestion above) which will annoy those that want remain as an option. I don't see how it will be possible to have a 2nd referendum with a simple binary choice. And if you have all three options you could then have a case where 48% vote remain, 37% vote for May's deal and 15% vote no deal. Remain will have won based on a simple percentage but there are more that actually want to leave in one form or the other. Glad it's not me that has to work it all out.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			And the EU probably see it as the best compromise for their members.
		
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I think the EU probably see it as getting everything they wanted written in to the legally enforceable withdrawal agreement and very little that the UK wanted. From my view point the EU have massively had our trousers down throughout the negotiations. I'm not blaming the EU for that as they have tried to do what is best for the EU27, as they quite rightly should have done. It's the UK government negotiators that have annoyed me.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think the EU probably see it as getting everything they wanted written in to the legally enforceable withdrawal agreement and very little that the UK wanted. From my view point the EU have massively had our trousers down throughout the negotiations. I'm not blaming the EU for that as they have tried to do what is best for the EU27, as they quite rightly should have done. *It's the UK government negotiators that have annoyed me*.
		
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Can't believe you did not have faith in this man....


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can't believe you did not have faith in this man....
	View attachment 26039

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I'll accept the one on the right of that photo but surely the one on the left should be supporting a politician called Clarke or possibly Brown.


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## drdel (Nov 30, 2018)

I amazed we're getting so exercised about the state of play when its a situation that's entirely predictable.

Anyone whose had to managed any large organisation through a period of major change and restructuring  will know that there are several known phases to transition as people get used to the new ways. The first phase is where there is the dip in belief/popularity/fear as the realisation that change is on the way (mourning for the past, if you will). Usually lasts about a year but in this case because Article 50 has negotiations lasting a couple pf years its has been dragged out generating even more fear and unreasonable momentum. Once this is under our belt there'll be a couple of years of uncertainty before the new way gains traction, is accepted and progress is made.

The problem is that the EU negotiators never had any power to deal. It should have been Prime Minister to Prime Minister(s) hence Barnier could only bat stuff back to the UK and Davis, Raab etc were only seen as token representatives while T. May was obviously frustrated she could not get the r27 PMs to talk turkey. 

The financial predictions that have hit the headlines from the Treasury and BoE are the 'worst' case scenarios for growth and, if you check their numbers, neither organisation added in growth rates or 'new business with RoW, they also discounted great chunks of the EU trade.  Unsurprisingly at a time when the UK is still unfreezing from the past this has fuelled fear beyond what is reality and sensible.

Hopefully our Politicians will develop some sense and see the situation for what it is - the UK has enough capability and momentum to exceed the doom master's predictions whether tis a 'deal' or no-deal: the later providing a faster route for decision-making and growth.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 30, 2018)

So are any brexiteers going to say we will live happily ever after with an opportunity to buy what ever we please ..etc.. tell me everything good about a hard brexit , what am I going to get and how great will the lives of my off spring be?


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## drdel (Nov 30, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			So are any brexiteers going to say we will live happily ever after with an opportunity to buy what ever we please ..etc.. tell me everything good about a hard brexit , what am I going to get and how great will the lives of my off spring be?
		
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What have you ever wanted to buy that either the  EU or Brexit has or will stop?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 30, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			So are any brexiteers going to say we will live happily ever after with an opportunity to buy what ever we please ..etc.. tell me everything good about a hard brexit , what am I going to get and how great will the lives of my off spring be?
		
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Double Diamond on tap with Chas'n Dave on the Juke box.
When do we want it â€¦.now.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Actually, according to the report, they predict that in all scenarios UK's GDP will rise! Just that 'No Deal' provides the least increase!

Remember...Brexit is not about improving UK's economy...It's about improving UK's control of its own destiny!
		
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I think thats what I intimated,


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2018)

drdel said:



			I amazed we're getting so exercised about the state of play when its a situation that's entirely predictable.

Anyone whose had to managed any large organisation through a period of major change and restructuring  will know that there are several known phases to transition as people get used to the new ways. The first phase is where there is the dip in belief/popularity/fear as the realisation that change is on the way (mourning for the past, if you will). Usually lasts about a year but in this case because Article 50 has negotiations lasting a couple pf years its has been dragged out generating even more fear and unreasonable momentum. Once this is under our belt there'll be a couple of years of uncertainty before the new way gains traction, is accepted and progress is made.

The problem is that the EU negotiators never had any power to deal. It should have been Prime Minister to Prime Minister(s) hence Barnier could only bat stuff back to the UK and Davis, Raab etc were only seen as token representatives while T. May was obviously frustrated she could not get the r27 PMs to talk turkey.

The financial predictions that have hit the headlines from the Treasury and BoE are the 'worst' case scenarios for growth and, if you check their numbers, neither organisation added in growth rates or 'new business with RoW, they also discounted great chunks of the EU trade.  Unsurprisingly at a time when the UK is still unfreezing from the past this has fuelled fear beyond what is reality and sensible.

Hopefully our Politicians will develop some sense and see the situation for what it is - the UK has enough capability and momentum to exceed the doom master's predictions whether tis a *'deal' or no-deal: the later providing a faster route for decision-making and growth*.
		
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Interested to hear with literally every economic forecast saying a no deal will economically be the worst case outcome, you say that this is the best route to growth?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 30, 2018)

drdel said:



			What have you ever wanted to buy that either the  EU or Brexit has or will stop?
		
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Strawberries now ... kiwis... at no extra cost, conti brake calliper , Bosch modulator, ...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			So are any brexiteers going to say we will live happily ever after with an opportunity to buy what ever we please ..etc.. tell me everything good about a hard brexit , what am I going to get and how great will the lives of my off spring be?
		
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It really would be a waste of time to do that as you are not willing to see any advantages at all for a No Deal Brexit, you and so many like you either want to ignore the positives or dwell on the negatives.  I accept that leaving without a current deal will create some bumps in the road but I can also see the chance of a better future for us and not only in financial terms.  The way you can only use the term Hard Brexit is indicative of your mindset and predjudiced outlook.  Do me a favour and read some differing outlooks, you may then adopt a more balanced view that made you more credible.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Interested to hear with literally every economic forecast saying a no deal will economically be the worst case outcome, you say that this is the best route to growth?
		
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So do many others if you make an effort to listen to them.  Staying in, Mays deal and a clean break all have things for and against in most reasoned peoples opinion.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Double Diamond on tap with Chas'n Dave on the Juke box.
When do we want it â€¦.now.
		
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I like Chaz and Dave.  They even sang a song about you. Darling, there aint no pleasing you.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 30, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



*So do many others if you make an effort to listen to them*.  Staying in, Mays deal and a clean break all have things for and against in most reasoned peoples opinion.
		
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I'm willing to listen, please link to any economic forecasts that estimate that no deal will lead to increased economic growth.  We've had the doom and gloom from the Treasury, where' the opposing view?  I am genuinely willing to read any credible economic forecasts that indicate it would not be as bad as has been portrayed.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			So are any brexiteers going to say we will live happily ever after with an opportunity to buy what ever we please ..etc.. tell me everything good about a hard brexit , what am I going to get and how great will the lives of my off spring be?
		
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I've just read an article that says that the UK will be Â£460 billion better off in the event of a no deal Brexit and the EU would be Â£500 billion worse off due to WTO tarrifs and no further payments from us to them. I say let`s go for it.

N.B. Those figures did come from Patrick Minford and I am unable to vouch for their accuracy.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 30, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've just read an article that says that the UK will be Â£460 billion better off in the event of a no deal Brexit and the EU would be Â£500 billion worse off due to WTO tarrifs and no further payments from us to them. I say let`s go for it.

N.B. Those figures did come from Patrick Minford and I am unable to vouch for their accuracy.
		
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Itâ€™s a start .. keep digging


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## harpo_72 (Nov 30, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			It really would be a waste of time to do that as you are not willing to see any advantages at all for a No Deal Brexit, you and so many like you either want to ignore the positives or dwell on the negatives.  I accept that leaving without a current deal will create some bumps in the road but I can also see the chance of a better future for us and not only in financial terms.  The way you can only use the term Hard Brexit is indicative of your mindset and predjudiced outlook.  Do me a favour and read some differing outlooks, you may then adopt a more balanced view that made you more credible.
		
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You have no answer but blind faith ... your a danger to society


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## Hobbit (Nov 30, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've just read an article that says that the UK will be Â£460 billion better off in the event of a no deal Brexit and the EU would be Â£500 billion worse off due to WTO tarrifs and no further payments from us to them. I say let`s go for it.

N.B. Those figures did come from Patrick Minford and I am unable to vouch for their accuracy.
		
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The RAND organisation did a report showing 7 different versions of Brexit. The only one that showed the UK better off with a No Deal scenario was one where they signed a TTIP deal with the US. A TTIP deal with the US would be way worse than staying the EU. 

What the report doesn't show is the impact of new deals signed with countries outside the EU. Will it fill the trade gap? Just short or exceed?

Taking a punt at the options of trading with the EU; tariffs could, to a large extent be balanced. That balance could see tariff monies passed on to companies, as subsidies, that were seeing the pain. The reduction in UK tariffs on goods coming from the rest of the world might see some cost reductions on materials. And selling to non-EU countries would be easier. But there are WTO rules about applying different tariff rates to different countries.

HOWEVER, the one thing no one has talked about is quotas. If the EU decided to apply quota limits... you'd have to guess the impact.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s a start .. keep digging
		
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Here's a screengrab of the article. Looks like I was wrong, it's even better than I thought. We'll actually be Â£641 billion better off. Bonus. It must be true as it's printed in the paper. That's how it works isn't it?....




To be clear - I'm not a supporter of Brexit and don't believe these figures one little bit.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm willing to listen, please link to any economic forecasts that estimate that no deal will lead to increased economic growth.  We've had the doom and gloom from the Treasury, where' the opposing view?  I am genuinely willing to read any credible economic forecasts that indicate it would not be as bad as has been portrayed.
		
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And there's the problem, you quantify a reply as 'credible, so that would be credible as viewed from your blinkered viewpoint. Let me suggest an alternative strategy. You read through some opposing articles and just try to pretty please  find some scraps that could just possibly be seen as advantageous or having a modicum of potential to  improve some peoples lifestyles.  Go on, you know it makes sense.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			You have no answer but blind faith ... your a danger to society
		
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Another lazy comment. You continue to ignore my stance or justify yours. Shame really as i think you could add to the debate if you had a more open mindset. Take a look at Hobbits posts, a man that voted remain but with an open mind.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The RAND organisation did a report showing 7 different versions of Brexit. The only one that showed the UK better off with a No Deal scenario was one where they signed a TTIP deal with the US. A TTIP deal with the US would be way worse than staying the EU.

What the report doesn't show is the impact of new deals signed with countries outside the EU. Will it fill the trade gap? Just short or exceed?

Taking a punt at the options of trading with the EU; tariffs could, to a large extent be balanced. That balance could see tariff monies passed on to companies, as subsidies, that were seeing the pain. The reduction in UK tariffs on goods coming from the rest of the world might see some cost reductions on materials. And selling to non-EU countries would be easier. But there are WTO rules about applying different tariff rates to different countries.

HOWEVER, the one thing no one has talked about is quotas. If the EU decided to apply quota limits... you'd have to guess the impact.
		
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If we set quotas on EU cars, Wine, Cheese, Machine Tools etc then the impact could be very different. We can get these products from the rest of the world.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 30, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Here's a screengrab of the article. Looks like I was wrong, it's even better than I thought. We'll actually be Â£641 billion better off. Bonus. It must be true as it's printed in the paper. That's how it works isn't it?....

View attachment 26040


To be clear - I'm not a supporter of Brexit and don't believe these figures one little bit.
		
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Does look a bit hopeful, why would we be getting any tariffs? Would they not cancel themselves out?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The RAND organisation did a report showing 7 different versions of Brexit. The only one that showed the UK better off with a No Deal scenario was one where they signed a TTIP deal with the US. A TTIP deal with the US would be way worse than staying the EU.

What the report doesn't show is the impact of new deals signed with countries outside the EU. Will it fill the trade gap? Just short or exceed?

Taking a punt at the options of trading with the EU; tariffs could, to a large extent be balanced. That balance could see tariff monies passed on to companies, as subsidies, that were seeing the pain. The reduction in UK tariffs on goods coming from the rest of the world might see some cost reductions on materials. And selling to non-EU countries would be easier. But there are WTO rules about applying different tariff rates to different countries.

HOWEVER, the one thing no one has talked about is quotas. If the EU decided to apply quota limits... you'd have to guess the impact.
		
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Quotas .. I think a Japan would be your example. Cost of living is high there, they are self sufficient and donâ€™t necessarily comply.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 1, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Does look a bit hopeful, why would we be getting any tariffs? Would they not cancel themselves out?
		
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As I understand we would put tariffs on any goods that we bought from the EU and vice versa. We buy more from the EU than they buy from us so we would receive more in tariffs than we would be paying to the EU. In 2017 we exported goods/services worth Â£274 billion to the EU and imported goods/services worth Â£341 billion - so Â£67 billion deficit in trade. Ignoring services that actually rises to a Â£95 billion deficit for goods alone, as we had a Â£28 billion surplus on trade in services.

I have no idea how Minford arrived at the totals he did and as I said previously I don't believe them. But if it came down to WTO rules then purely looking at tariffs applied to goods we would almost certainly be better off and the EU would almost certainly be worse off. How much better off/worse off each side would be I have no idea and there is also the fact that the EU loss would be spread over 27 countries so easier to absorb. I've put "almost certainly" as tariffs would vary on different goods so it isn't a straight forward calculation.

Figures taken from this article - https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 1, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Quotas .. I think a Japan would be your example. Cost of living is high there, they are self sufficient and *donâ€™t necessarily comply.*

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Comply with what; comply with regulations, like certain EU members don't if it doesn't suit them?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 1, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			As I understand we would put tariffs on any goods that we bought from the EU and vice versa. We buy more from the EU than they buy from us so we would receive more in tariffs than we would be paying to the EU. In 2017 we exported goods/services worth Â£274 billion to the EU and imported goods/services worth Â£341 billion - so Â£67 billion deficit in trade. Ignoring services that actually rises to a Â£95 billion deficit for goods alone, as we had a Â£28 billion surplus on trade in services.

I have no idea how Minford arrived at the totals he did and as I said previously I don't believe them. But if it came down to WTO rules then purely looking at tariffs applied to goods we would almost certainly be better off and the EU would almost certainly be worse off. How much better off/worse off each side would be I have no idea and there is also the fact that the EU loss would be spread over 27 countries so easier to absorb. I've put "almost certainly" as tariffs would vary on different goods so it isn't a straight forward calculation.

Figures taken from this article - https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851

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I donâ€™t understand how we would be better off. We import more therefore the tariffs have a greater impact. To export we need to price to overcome the tariffs on our products. This would mean lower wages and those elements that are supported by taxes would suffer more, or tax would be added to other things or increased to compensate.. so in the end we the working public are worse off. Those that donâ€™t work are not immune either as their support networks will be degraded.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 1, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			And there's the problem, you quantify a reply as 'credible, so that would be credible as viewed from your blinkered viewpoint. Let me suggest an alternative strategy. You read through some opposing articles and just try to pretty please  find some scraps that could just possibly be seen as advantageous or having a modicum of potential to  improve some peoples lifestyles.  Go on, you know it makes sense.
		
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I meant credible as in not from people with a vested interest or from both the extreme ends of the argument.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 1, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Comply with what; comply with regulations, like certain EU members don't if it doesn't suit them?
		
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So other EU countries donâ€™t comply.. and what are the consequences? Japan is free to do as they please but some things are not acceptable such as whaling..


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 1, 2018)

Pointless...TV show
https://wingsoverscotland.com/all-show-no-game/#comments


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Comply with what; comply with regulations, like certain EU members don't if it doesn't suit them?
		
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harpo_72 said:



			So other EU countries donâ€™t comply.. and what are the consequences? Japan is free to do as they please but some things are not acceptable such as whaling..
		
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Believe me, Spain does not comply with many regs. Employment law out here is a joke, a huge joke. You want evidence? Log onto any Facebook page, both Spanish and Expat. Agriculture... hahahahaha. Environmental laws? Seriously? The worst beach in Europe is 20 miles from us. They've been fined, and not paid, and fined and not paid, and fined again. And as for the smells, occasionally, as you pass various industrial centres it is horrendous.

The UK is wonderful in many respects, apart from the weather, the cost of living and the massive overcrowding. So many people complain about immigration in the UK, whilst so many others ask whats the problem. Try living somewhere where it isn't crowded. Its bliss!!



harpo_72 said:



			I donâ€™t understand how we would be better off. We import more therefore the tariffs have a greater impact. To export we need to price to overcome the tariffs on our products. This would mean lower wages and those elements that are supported by taxes would suffer more, or tax would be added to other things or increased to compensate.. so in the end we the working public are worse off. Those that donâ€™t work are not immune either as their support networks will be degraded.
		
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Are you sure you've got that the right way round? Do you understand tariffs?

We import more from the EU, therefore the tariffs the UK could apply are greater than the tariffs that could be applied. Simple maths. The goods we import from the rest of the world are subject to EU tariffs and quotas. Imagine something that costs Â£10 now, including a 20%(Â£2) tariff. All of a sudden its Â£2 cheaper if the EU tariff is removed. And those goods currently imported from the rest of the world, currently under tariff and quota rules, are probably subject to a reciprocal tariff on what we export to them. Imagine if they dropped the tariffs because we did. All of a sudden they want more of our goods.

You haven't thought out the global impact of tariffs very well have you?


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## Foxholer (Dec 1, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I meant credible as in not from people with a vested interest or from both the extreme ends of the argument.
		
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Check the Treasury report out then. It stated that in all scenarios UK GDP was expected to rise.

And Treasury wouldn't be biased, surely!!


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I meant credible as in not from people with a vested interest or from both the extreme ends of the argument.
		
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And you don't have a vested interest in the argument? I love the way people from both sides think they are the reasonable ones. To either side, the opposite aren't reasonable.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 1, 2018)

If the UK leaves the EU and trades under WTO rules it is free to set tarrifs on imports. Currently we are compelled to use EU tariffs which are quite high and used to protect EU industries from cheaper world prices.  The UK could set all or many tarrifs to zero if they wish and this would lower the prices of many imported goods including food.  We would of course have to pay tariffs on goods we export where there are no free trade agreements.  WTO states that whatever tariffs you set must be the same to all other members.  Under this system the EU could not set punishment tariffs to the UK without using the same to all other countries


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 1, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			So other EU countries donâ€™t comply.. and what are the consequences? Japan is free to do as they please but some things are not acceptable such as whaling..
		
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As unpalatable as the whaling is, it's not what I'm referring to and I'm sure you realised that, which is disappointing.


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## Foxholer (Dec 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			...Are you sure you've got that the right way round? Do you understand tariffs?

We import more from the EU, therefore the tariffs the UK could apply are greater than the tariffs that could be applied. Simple maths. The goods we import from the rest of the world are subject to EU tariffs and quotas. Imagine _something that costs Â£10 now, including a 20%(Â£2) tariff_. All of a sudden its Â£2 cheaper if the EU tariff is removed. And those goods currently imported from the rest of the world, currently under tariff and quota rules, are probably subject to a reciprocal tariff on what we export to them. *Imagine if they dropped the tariffs because we did. All of a sudden they want more of our goods.*

You haven't thought out the global impact of tariffs very well have you?
		
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As I understand it, the agreement May is trying to 'sell' requires that UK's tariffs would never be lower than EU ones! That's one of the reasons why I believe it's not a good deal!

Btw. The arithmetic in the italicised text is wrong. Either it's a *25%* tariff (based on Â£8 non-tariff value..total Â£10) or '*plus*' a 20% (Â£2) tariff!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			A*nd you don't have a vested interest in the argument?* I love the way people from both sides think they are the reasonable ones. To either side, the opposite aren't reasonable.
		
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I'm not denying everyone has a bias to believe the reports that tally with their views, but I'm not the one writing reports.  I was asking for reports from relatively unbiased sources on the impact of Brexit.  I can then decide if I think the report is a conspiracy by the government or if they put forwards a sensible argument one way or the other.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Are you sure you've got that the right way round? Do you understand tariffs?

We import more from the EU, therefore the tariffs the UK could apply are greater than the tariffs that could be applied. Simple maths. The goods we import from the rest of the world are subject to EU tariffs and quotas. Imagine something that costs Â£10 now, including a 20%(Â£2) tariff. All of a sudden its Â£2 cheaper if the EU tariff is removed. And those goods currently imported from the rest of the world, currently under tariff and quota rules, are probably subject to a reciprocal tariff on what we export to them. Imagine if they dropped the tariffs because we did. All of a sudden they want more of our goods.

You haven't thought out the global impact of tariffs very well have you?
		
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Okay, my understanding is this, we charge tariffs on imports ... these get paid by those exporting to us. But hey thatâ€™s lost money like any form of interest or tax. So how do they make it back or make it as minimal loss as possible? They charge it to the consumer.. that would be us, indirectly. Looks like life got a bit more expensive to me.
Now letâ€™s look the other way, I want to sell competively in another market, but to do so I need to pay a tariff. So I really want to sell but I have a huge on cost, so my goods look expensive in that market and I struggle to get a share. I need to sell, to get traction in the market I need to drop my prices. So how am I going to do that ? Well firstly I will reduce all my overheads and guess what that is wages .. so iâ€™ll cut those. So once again the public will be the loser. 
The tariff stuff only works if your a strong market and something every one wants .. we have our fishing waters, we have advanced technologies (in low volume)  but our precious raw materials?? What are they ? 
We are the 5 th biggest consumer economy ... means we are a bunch of shoppers! 
I think I understand tariffs.

I also understand that one way quota restrictions being deployed by Japan and their market protection with different standards help them.


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Okay, my understanding is this, we charge tariffs on imports ... these get paid by those exporting to us. But hey thatâ€™s lost money like any form of interest or tax. So how do they make it back or make it as minimal loss as possible? They charge it to the consumer.. that would be us, indirectly. Looks like life got a bit more expensive to me.
Now letâ€™s look the other way, I want to sell competively in another market, but to do so I need to pay a tariff. So I really want to sell but I have a huge on cost, so my goods look expensive in that market and I struggle to get a share. I need to sell, to get traction in the market I need to drop my prices. So how am I going to do that ? Well firstly I will reduce all my overheads and guess what that is wages .. so iâ€™ll cut those. So once again the public will be the loser.
The tariff stuff only works if your a strong market and something every one wants .. we have our fishing waters, we have advanced technologies (in low volume)  but our precious raw materials?? What are they ?
We are the 5 th biggest consumer economy ... means we are a bunch of shoppers!
I think I understand tariffs.

I also understand that one way quota restrictions being deployed by Japan and their market protection with different standards help them.
		
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Your premise starts with "we charge tariffs." The reality is we charge tariffs that the EU instruct all the EU member states to charge, and some of those tariffs and quotas are quite punitive. Some of those tariffs are on raw materials, not just finished products. If the UK, post-Brexit, didn't charge those tariffs the consumer wins.  Those Non-EU countries who were suffering tariffs reciprocate, and British exporters to those countries are then selling cheaper but at no extra cost or loss as the tariff they had to pay isn't there anymore. That's the win on global trade, and an area for potential growth in trading areas that are also seeing the biggest growth now.

However, 47% of the UK's exports goes to the EU. The EU, as a protectionist organisation, imposes tariffs on UK products. Its harder for the UK exporters to remain competitive in the EU. But what is sold into the EU becomes more expensive for the EU consumers. How can the UK mitigate, and maybe even support manufacturers? It becomes a trade war. They charge tariffs, the UK charge tariffs. The Uk exports, say Â£100 worth of goods and experiences Â£10 worth of tariffs. The reciprocal rate on the EU, who exports more to the UK and than the UK to the EU, sees Â£150 worth of goods experiencing Â£15 worth of tariffs. The UK govt then uses the tariffs its collected to subsidise UK industries.

What else can the UK govt do to help UK industries? Corporation Tax. Reducing business tax has always been a mantra from the Tories. Reduce corporation tax and you have reduced the business costs, which can also offset the tariffs. Reduce the corporation tax and you will see global investment come to the UK. That's how Ireland got out of its recession, and the EU have fought long and hard with Ireland, and the companies that have benefited, through the ECJ. 

The EU fear a tax haven on their borders. Have a read through May's Deal. There's clauses in there, obviously penned by the EU, that severely limit the freedom to set corporation tax. And a Tory PM wants the UK to sign up to them?!?!?!? I can't believe May wants that deal. Its appalling. But there again, if it fails, as is predicted, I expect another referendum and Remain to win. She gets what she wanted right from the outset. The UK stays in the EU.

All the gloom and doom forecasts are, in the main, fairly accurate. However, not one of them has or can predict what benefit can come from opening up to cheaper global trade. Pretty much all of them have taken into account EU tariffs but none of them have taken into account reciprocal tariff impositions by the UK. 

The Truth? There'll be a dip. Will it be as bad or as long as forecast? I very much doubt it. Will there be benefits by opening up to global trade? Absolutely.


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## Old Skier (Dec 1, 2018)

Nice balance to the argument but balance has no part in this thread


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## harpo_72 (Dec 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Your premise starts with "we charge tariffs." The reality is we charge tariffs that the EU instruct all the EU member states to charge, and some of those tariffs and quotas are quite punitive. Some of those tariffs are on raw materials, not just finished products. If the UK, post-Brexit, didn't charge those tariffs the consumer wins.  Those Non-EU countries who were suffering tariffs reciprocate, and British exporters to those countries are then selling cheaper but at no extra cost or loss as the tariff they had to pay isn't there anymore. That's the win on global trade, and an area for potential growth in trading areas that are also seeing the biggest growth now.

However, 47% of the UK's exports goes to the EU. The EU, as a protectionist organisation, imposes tariffs on UK products. Its harder for the UK exporters to remain competitive in the EU. But what is sold into the EU becomes more expensive for the EU consumers. How can the UK mitigate, and maybe even support manufacturers? It becomes a trade war. They charge tariffs, the UK charge tariffs. The Uk exports, say Â£100 worth of goods and experiences Â£10 worth of tariffs. The reciprocal rate on the EU, who exports more to the UK and than the UK to the EU, sees Â£150 worth of goods experiencing Â£15 worth of tariffs. The UK govt then uses the tariffs its collected to subsidise UK industries.

What else can the UK govt do to help UK industries? Corporation Tax. Reducing business tax has always been a mantra from the Tories. Reduce corporation tax and you have reduced the business costs, which can also offset the tariffs. Reduce the corporation tax and you will see global investment come to the UK. That's how Ireland got out of its recession, and the EU have fought long and hard with Ireland, and the companies that have benefited, through the ECJ.

The EU fear a tax haven on their borders. Have a read through May's Deal. There's clauses in there, obviously penned by the EU, that severely limit the freedom to set corporation tax. And a Tory PM wants the UK to sign up to them?!?!?!? I can't believe May wants that deal. Its appalling. But there again, if it fails, as is predicted, I expect another referendum and Remain to win. She gets what she wanted right from the outset. The UK stays in the EU.

All the gloom and doom forecasts are, in the main, fairly accurate. However, not one of them has or can predict what benefit can come from opening up to cheaper global trade. Pretty much all of them have taken into account EU tariffs but none of them have taken into account reciprocal tariff impositions by the UK.

The Truth? There'll be a dip. Will it be as bad or as long as forecast? I very much doubt it. Will there be benefits by opening up to global trade? Absolutely.
		
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I accept itâ€™s happening now, we are used to it, but as you state at the very end we suffer but for an unknown length of time ... we as a nation have not prepared, we donâ€™t have the most wanted commodity whether that be a raw material or a technology. So ultimately we are gambling, playing poker with a pretty poor hand .. itâ€™s stronger than others but it isnâ€™t a winner. 
If I offered you the opportunity to kill off the welfare state, nhs, and all pension commitements private and public sector ... you would be wealthier because take home pay would be greater, would you take that risk.. the risk of being ill and not being able to afford the hospital bills, the risk of poverty with no support? Just because there is perceived opportunity of great wealth? 
Mayâ€™s deal is rubbish ... but no deal is too big of a risk .. remain, partake and take ownership by forcing the Spanish to clean their beaches and factories up.. or whatever floats your boat, but accept life is good as is, there has been a pretty good balance in Europe for 50 years. 
Turn the uk to tax haven .. really ? Who will come ? What other sell out options will there be ? Sovereignty will be meaningless when we all work for rich multinationals who will switch the lights off when it suits them. 
Before you know it the criminals will be investing ( London is pretty rife already) any morals we had will slip down the plug hole we will be chasing money at the expense of our fellow man/ woman ..


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			I accept itâ€™s happening now, we are used to it, but as you state at the very end we suffer but for an unknown length of time ... we as a nation have not prepared, we donâ€™t have the most wanted commodity whether that be a raw material or a technology. So ultimately we are gambling, playing poker with a pretty poor hand .. itâ€™s stronger than others but it isnâ€™t a winner.
If I offered you the opportunity to kill off the welfare state, nhs, and all pension commitements private and public sector ... you would be wealthier because take home pay would be greater, would you take that risk.. the risk of being ill and not being able to afford the hospital bills, the risk of poverty with no support? Just because there is perceived opportunity of great wealth?
Mayâ€™s deal is rubbish ... but no deal is too big of a risk .. remain, partake and take ownership by forcing the Spanish to clean their beaches and factories up.. or whatever floats your boat, but accept life is good as is, there has been a pretty good balance in Europe for 50 years.
Turn the uk to tax haven .. really ? Who will come ? What other sell out options will there be ? Sovereignty will be meaningless when we all work for rich multinationals who will switch the lights off when it suits them.
Before you know it the criminals will be investing ( London is pretty rife already) any morals we had will slip down the plug hole we will be chasing money at the expense of our fellow man/ woman ..
		
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Mmm, what started out between us as a discussion on tariffs has become a discussion on playing poker, stopping commitments to the welfare state/NHS and criminals investing in London. The UK will become Sodom and Gomorrah - really? A bit of a hysterical imagination? You missed out the unicorns bit.

You failed to acknowledge the potential reciprocity of tariff impositions to balance trade. You failed to acknowledge what can be done by changing Corporate Tax, even though Ireland has very clearly shown what can be done - criminals haven't flocked there by the way. And as for no one will want to operate in a country of lower taxation... oh please, at least acknowledge that businesses do want to reduce their costs, and taxation is a no benefits cost.

Life is good, and I like the status quo. I don't want change, or Brexit, but at least I acknowledge there is another way that doesn't include the hysteria some Remainers seem to be infected with.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 1, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, what started out between us as a discussion on tariffs has become a discussion on playing poker, stopping commitments to the welfare state/NHS and criminals investing in London. The UK will become Sodom and Gomorrah - really? A bit of a hysterical imagination? You missed out the unicorns bit.

You failed to acknowledge the potential reciprocity of tariff impositions to balance trade. You failed to acknowledge what can be done by changing Corporate Tax, even though Ireland has very clearly shown what can be done - criminals haven't flocked there by the way. And as for no one will want to operate in a country of lower taxation... oh please, at least acknowledge that businesses do want to reduce their costs, and taxation is a no benefits cost.

Life is good, and I like the status quo. I don't want change, or Brexit, but at least I acknowledge there is another way that doesn't include the hysteria some Remainers seem to be infected with.
		
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Perhaps it went too far and it should have been small steps .. but the key to trade is having something other people want. We have nothing of note we are consumers ... there lies the issue.


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## drdel (Dec 1, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Perhaps it went too far and it should have been small steps .. but the key to trade is having something other people want. We have nothing of note we are consumers ... there lies the issue.
		
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That's just unbelievably silly when the UK is one of the world's largest economies. IMO you have just joined those remainers who simply justify their choice by rubbishing the capabilities of their own country to stand on it's own two feet 

The UK is a strong country with excellent businesses and capable people and I hate to tell you  but armegeddon will not happen.


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2018)

drdel said:



			That's just unbelievably silly when the UK is one of the world's largest economies. IMO you have just joined those remainers who simply justify their choice by rubbishing the capabilities of their own country to stand on it's own two feet

The UK is a strong country with excellent businesses and capable people and I hate to tell you  but armegeddon will not happen.
		
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Amazing isn't it. The UK has exports to the value of over Â£400 BILLION and, apparently, we have nothing of value that anyone wants. I wonder how much they would want if it was tariff free? Obviously nothing as the UK has nothing of note...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 1, 2018)

drdel said:



			That's just unbelievably silly when the UK is one of the world's largest economies. IMO you have just joined those remainers who simply justify their choice by rubbishing the capabilities of their own country to stand on it's own two feet

The UK is a strong country with excellent businesses and capable people and I hate to tell you  but armegeddon will not happen.
		
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Go on name it .. bet it isnâ€™t 100% out of the UK, oh and isnâ€™t our economy 70 something % banking services? So less than 30% of whatever else. 
Come on, wake up the bankers have got a plan, if we donâ€™t keep passporting they will be taking residence in Europe. 

This is not down playing the uk, this is reality, this is looking at in the cold light of day and saying how it is .. this is not project fear, this is a challenge to you, show us the truth behind your quoted fingers.. show us the 100% home products we can base an economy on. 

Will the next response be derogatory? Highly likely several have been so far, so resist the temptation rise to the challenge and give it a good response.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 1, 2018)

How about Welsh lamb, Scottish whiskey and fish? There's three things that spring to mind instantly and I'm sure that there are many more if you Google it.

And at the minute under EU law a sheep could be raised anywhere in Europe and sold as Welsh lamb as long as it was transported to Wales to be killed. The same goes for other meat products as well. A cow raised anywhere can be sold with a Union Jack flag on it as long as it is slaughtered here.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 1, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			I accept itâ€™s happening now, we are used to it, but as you state at the very end we suffer but for an unknown length of time ... we as a nation have not prepared, we donâ€™t have the most wanted commodity whether that be a raw material or a technology. So ultimately we are gambling, playing poker with a pretty poor hand .. itâ€™s stronger than others but it isnâ€™t a winner. 
If I offered you the opportunity to kill off the welfare state, nhs, and all pension commitements private and public sector ... you would be wealthier because take home pay would be greater, would you take that risk.. the risk of being ill and not being able to afford the hospital bills, the risk of poverty with no support? Just because there is perceived opportunity of great wealth? 
Mayâ€™s deal is rubbish ... but no deal is too big of a risk .. remain, partake and take ownership by forcing the Spanish to clean their beaches and factories up.. or whatever floats your boat, but accept life is good as is, there has been a pretty good balance in Europe for 50 years. 
Turn the uk to tax haven .. really ? Who will come ? What other sell out options will there be ? Sovereignty will be meaningless when we all work for rich multinationals who will switch the lights off when it suits them. 
Before you know it the criminals will be investing ( London is pretty rife already) any morals we had will slip down the plug hole we will be chasing money at the expense of our fellow man/ woman ..
		
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It's difficult to hold a reasonable debate with someone who escalates his journey towards apocalypse in each post with a closed mindset.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Go on name it .. bet it isnâ€™t 100% out of the UK, oh and isnâ€™t our economy 70 something % banking services? So less than 30% of whatever else.
Come on, wake up the bankers have got a plan, if we donâ€™t keep passporting they will be taking residence in Europe.

This is not down playing the uk, this is reality, this is looking at in the cold light of day and saying how it is .. this is not project fear, this is a challenge to you, show us the truth behind your quoted fingers.. show us the 100% home products we can base an economy on.

Will the next response be derogatory? Highly likely several have been so far, so resist the temptation rise to the challenge and give it a good response.
		
Click to expand...

I love reading a good rant! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

(Maybe just close the curtains and have a lie down eh?)ðŸ˜


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Perhaps it went too far and it should have been small steps .. but the key to trade is having something other people want. We have nothing of note we are consumers ... there lies the issue.
		
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Â£400 Billion of exports and you say the UK has nothing the rest of the world wants. You are talking rubbish, complete and utter rubbish. 



harpo_72 said:



			Go on name it .. bet it isnâ€™t 100% out of the UK, oh and isnâ€™t our economy 70 something % banking services? So less than 30% of whatever else.
Come on, wake up the bankers have got a plan, if we donâ€™t keep passporting they will be taking residence in Europe.

This is not down playing the uk, this is reality, this is looking at in the cold light of day and saying how it is .. this is not project fear, this is a challenge to you, show us the truth behind your quoted fingers.. show us the 100% home products we can base an economy on.

Will the next response be derogatory? Highly likely several have been so far, so resist the temptation rise to the challenge and give it a good response.
		
Click to expand...

"Our economy 70 something % banking services." REALLY! 

From April 2017 to April 2018; banking services contributed a Â£119bn to the UK economy as a whole, which is 6.5% of UK output. In terms of exports, banking services contributed Â£61bn of the UK's total global output of Â£2,100bn.

"70 something %"


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## MegaSteve (Dec 2, 2018)

Looking ever more likely we'll be having a second 'once in a generation ' vote...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Â£400 Billion of exports and you say the UK has nothing the rest of the world wants. You are talking rubbish, complete and utter rubbish.



"Our economy 70 something % banking services." REALLY!

From April 2017 to April 2018; banking services contributed a Â£119bn to the UK economy as a whole, which is 6.5% of UK output. In terms of exports, banking services contributed Â£61bn of the UK's total global output of Â£2,100bn.

"70 something %"

Click to expand...

Manufacturing and production contribute less than 21% of the GDP, and agriculture contributes less than 0.60%.


According to the U.K. Office for National Statistics (ONS), the services sector is the largest sector in the U.K., accounting for more than three-quarters of the GDP. The service industry in the U.K. comprises many industries, including finance and business services, consumer-focused industries, such as retail, food and beverage, and entertainment.

That is the build of the UK economy ... compare it to the top 4 .. oh and a link as well golly gosh.
The service sector will be importing and their costs will rise ... thanks for making a good meal and a glass more expensive and we will see a reduction in those services contribution to the GDP.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 2, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			How about Welsh lamb, Scottish whiskey and fish? There's three things that spring to mind instantly and I'm sure that there are many more if you Google it.

And at the minute under EU law a sheep could be raised anywhere in Europe and sold as Welsh lamb as long as it was transported to Wales to be killed. The same goes for other meat products as well. A cow raised anywhere can be sold with a Union Jack flag on it as long as it is slaughtered here.
		
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You will have to wait until after we leave the EU before you can buy any Scotch WhiskEy from America/China/Nigeria etc.
Scotland [the brand] being vandalised by the British Westminster Tories yet again.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 2, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You will have to wait until after we leave the EU before you can buy any Scotch WhiskEy from America/China/Nigeria etc.
Scotland [the brand] being vandalised by the British Westminster Tories yet again.
		
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Autocorrect gave me the option of "whiskey" or "whisky" and I can never remember which is the right one, so I guessed. Badly as it turns out.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 2, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Autocorrect gave me the option of "whiskey" or "whisky" and I can never remember which is the right one, so I guessed. Badly as it turns out.
		
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If it's from Eire, it's got an e is the easy way to remember it.  Not 100% accurate as NI also has an e but you get the idea.  No e in Scotland would be the other way I suppose.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 2, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Autocorrect gave me the option of "whiskey" or "whisky" and I can never remember which is the right one, so I guessed. Badly as it turns out.
		
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Easy way to remember is....
Irish [and any other inferior products] are spelt with an e.
The good stuff does not have an e.


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## Foxholer (Dec 2, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Easy way to remember is....
Irish [and any other inferior products] are spelt with an e.
The good stuff does not have an e.

Click to expand...

H'mm! The Irish actually added the 'e' to distinguish their superior product from the rubbish that was being produced/exported by Scotland! - at the time! The Scots sorted themselves out and it's their product that dominates these days.

Plenty of examples of 'good stuff' Irish to be had - and probably more in the future, as it's been making a comeback after a long decline from its peak.

As BiM implied in his post, best way to remember...there's no 'e' in Scotland or their product; there's an 'e' in Ireland and their's.


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## Mudball (Dec 2, 2018)

Well no need to debate which is better or worse with and without an â€˜eâ€™.. I am a Japanese dram guy..  The Hibiki trumps any of the Glens while Santory and Chitas have plenty to push over the blended stuff. 

It is a good example of how the world can change its choices and markets move away. Sure you can argue the Scottish and Irish will win the volume whiskey game, but right now the Japs have some of the best dram 

Btw nothing to do with Brexit or maybe we will have trade deal with Japan where we buy their drink and bottle it in Scotland and call it Scotch!!!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Manufacturing and production contribute less than 21% of the GDP, and agriculture contributes less than 0.60%.


According to the U.K. Office for National Statistics (ONS), the services sector is the largest sector in the U.K., accounting for more than three-quarters of the GDP. The service industry in the U.K. comprises many industries, including finance and business services, consumer-focused industries, such as retail, food and beverage, and entertainment.

That is the build of the UK economy ... compare it to the top 4 .. oh and a link as well golly gosh.
The service sector will be importing and their costs will rise ... thanks for making a good meal and a glass more expensive and we will see a reduction in those services contribution to the GDP.
		
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I am not sure if you are deliberately trying to paint a false picture of the service industry or if you are genuinely ignorant of the way it works.

The Service Sector in the UK covers a number of different areas from the Motor Trade to Technology.  Financial and insurance activities can be attributed to  9.2% of the Service Sector and 6.5% of UK output, so suggesting any reduction would bring the UK to it's knees is Gilding the Lilly.  Also of that 9.2% no one is suggesting that a large swathe of it would leave the UK (well that's not including you and SILH)


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## drdel (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Go on name it .. bet it isnâ€™t 100% out of the UK, oh and isnâ€™t our economy 70 something % banking services? So less than 30% of whatever else.
Come on, wake up the bankers have got a plan, if we donâ€™t keep passporting they will be taking residence in Europe.

This is not down playing the uk, this is reality, this is looking at in the cold light of day and saying how it is .. this is not project fear, this is a challenge to you, show us the truth behind your quoted fingers.. show us the 100% home products we can base an economy on.

Will the next response be derogatory? Highly likely several have been so far, so resist the temptation rise to the challenge and give it a good response.
		
Click to expand...


We can trade 'selected' and out-of-context numbers all day but what's the point? in any case other poster have had a go and you still won't budge.

You have your reasons for supporting the EU as I do for taking an opposite view. e.g. 

For me I dislike intensely the direction in which the EU's unelected strategy/policy is taking the member states ever more towards central 'Treasury' , Defence and an EU supernation. 
I dislike their high-handed disingenuous treatment of Greece (I don't support the Greek's economic behaviour but the EU lied to the IMFand treated their debt restructuring with contempt); to the advantage of the German economy and ECB.
The EU's trade controls are out-of-date and fail to recognise the world has moved on since the 1980s.
Growth is stagnating in northern Europe, other nation's are moving faster.
The EU's spending is growing faster and is not controlled by the elected members' representative, it would present a huge future burden to the UK as one of the very few net contributors.
Security control and data sharing among the EU and the members is lax posing a danger to the UK military, police etc.
Immigration is not managed, most members are happy for migrants, legal or otherwise to be given 'easy' passage to the UK.
Jobs for the 'top' are handed out to the selected few who are supporters of 'career' centralists aspiration.

I'm afraid I personally cannot see why any thinking person in the UK would prefer to be run by these unelected idiots who sit beyond our (UK public's) reach.


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Manufacturing and production contribute less than 21% of the GDP, and agriculture contributes less than 0.60%.


According to the U.K. Office for National Statistics (ONS), the services sector is the largest sector in the U.K., accounting for more than three-quarters of the GDP. The service industry in the U.K. comprises many industries, including finance and business services, consumer-focused industries, such as retail, food and beverage, and entertainment.

That is the build of the UK economy ... compare it to the top 4 .. oh and a link as well golly gosh.
The service sector will be importing and their costs will rise ... thanks for making a good meal and a glass more expensive and we will see a reduction in those services contribution to the GDP.
		
Click to expand...

And for the third time you still haven't acknowledged that the UK exports Â£400bn worth of goods. Remember your throwaway line of the UK has nowt to offer in the global market. Still avoiding it? You still haven't acknowledged what a difference the UK could make by changing/dropping tariffs and quotas nor what a reduction in corporation tax will do... but the streets of London will be lawless 

I wonder why the Spanish train manufacturer has recently announced it will be opening a factory in Fife, or that Siemens has announced it will extend its facility in Hull to the tune of Â£10m? Oh that's right, because the UK would be stupid place to invest....


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## Foxholer (Dec 2, 2018)

drdel said:



			We can trade 'selected' and out-of-context numbers all day but what's the point? in any case other poster have had a go and you still won't budge.

You have your reasons for supporting the EU as I do for taking an opposite view. e.g.

For me I dislike intensely the direction in which the EU's unelected strategy/policy is taking the member states ever more towards central 'Treasury' , Defence and an EU supernation.
I dislike their high-handed disingenuous treatment of Greece (I don't support the Greek's economic behaviour but the EU lied to the IMFand treated their debt restructuring with contempt); to the advantage of the German economy and ECB.
The EU's trade controls are out-of-date and fail to recognise the world has moved on since the 1980s.
Growth is stagnating in northern Europe, other nation's are moving faster.
The EU's spending is growing faster and is not controlled by the elected members' representative, it would present a huge future burden to the UK as one of the very few net contributors.
Security control and data sharing among the EU and the members is lax posing a danger to the UK military, police etc.
Immigration is not managed, most members are happy for migrants, legal or otherwise to be given 'easy' passage to the UK.
Jobs for the 'top' are handed out to the selected few who are supporters of 'career' centralists aspiration.

I'm afraid I personally cannot see why any thinking person in the UK would prefer to be run by these unelected idiots who sit beyond our (UK public's) reach.
		
Click to expand...

While I respect your arguments, I do wish that, especially as (apparently) an unelected bureaucrat yourself, you'd stop referring to the EU equivalents as simply unelected! The process by which key EU personnel are appointed is actually, imo, more 'democratic' than the likes of UK Public Servants are appointed! It's simply a 'different' type of democracy!

To reply to your points - from a marginal Remain voter who has moved to be a marginal to serious Leave one....


drdel said:



			For me I dislike intensely the direction in which the EU's unelected strategy/policy is taking the member states ever more towards central 'Treasury' , Defence and an EU supernation.
		
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'Centralisation' or even marginal 'Federalisation' seems reasonable to me in certain areas, but only up to a certain point! I'm not happy about plans for an EU Army...it's not necessary!


drdel said:



			I dislike their high-handed disingenuous treatment of Greece (I don't support the Greek's economic behaviour but the EU lied to the IMFand treated their debt restructuring with contempt); to the advantage of the German economy and ECB.
		
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Greece was (is?) a basket case that should have been sorted significantly earlier! It's a BIG problem, but seems to be being handled reasonably well/diplomatically - which includes innuendos, half-truths and outright lies that 'diplomacy' is all about!


drdel said:



			The EU's trade controls are out-of-date and fail to recognise the world has moved on since the 1980s.
		
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Not something I can really comment on, but they seem to have served UK fairly well!


drdel said:



			Growth is stagnating in northern Europe, other nation's are moving faster.
		
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Economies constantly fluctuate relative to each other..that's the nature of economies!


drdel said:



			The EU's spending is growing faster and is *not controlled by the elected members' representative*, it would present a huge future burden to the UK as one of the very few net contributors.
		
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Twaddle!!! But I concur with your concerns.


drdel said:



			Security control and data sharing among the EU and the members is lax posing a danger to the UK military, police etc.
		
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Examples required! There is likely no more (or less!) likelihood for security/data sharing breaches across EU than within UK - which is neither a comfort, nor something to really be obsessed about imo.


drdel said:



*Immigration is not managed*, most members are happy for migrants, legal or otherwise to be given 'easy' passage to the UK.
		
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Illegal Immigration into EU, therefore potentially UK, is a huge problem! UK is not the worst affected! Immigration within the EU IS managed, if not necessarily as some would like!


drdel said:



			Jobs for the 'top' are handed out to the selected few who are supporters of 'career' centralists aspiration.
		
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Can't really comment, but I expect the same approach applies in every appointment anywhere (including yours) - appointers are looking for candidates likely to have the 'desired' approach wanted for the particular role.


drdel said:



			I'm afraid I personally cannot see why any thinking person in the UK would prefer to be run by these unelected idiots who sit beyond our (UK public's) reach.
		
Click to expand...

That'll be insulting to the 48% (now minus me) who voted Remain then! And to your fellow (or maybe superior!) bureaucrats! Both unworthy of you imo!

Btw. This item is worth reading to dispel *some of *the 'unelected' hysteria! https://www.economist.com/the-econo...efer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats


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## drdel (Dec 2, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			While I respect your arguments, I do wish that, especially as (apparently) an unelected bureaucrat yourself, you'd stop referring to the EU equivalents as simply unelected! The process by which key EU personnel are appointed is actually, imo, more 'democratic' than the likes of UK Public Servants are appointed! It's simply a 'different' type of democracy!

To reply to your points - from a marginal Remain voter who has moved to be a marginal to serious Leave one....

'Centralisation' or even marginal 'Federalisation' seems reasonable to me in certain areas, but only up to a certain point! I'm not happy about plans for an EU Army...it's not necessary!

Greece was (is?) a basket case that should have been sorted significantly earlier! It's a BIG problem, but seems to be being handled reasonably well/diplomatically - which includes innuendos, half-truths and outright lies that 'diplomacy' is all about!
		
Click to expand...

To reply to your points - from a marginal Remain voter who has moved to be a marginal to serious Leave one....

'Centralisation' or even marginal 'Federalisation' seems reasonable to me in certain areas, but only up to a certain point! I'm not happy about plans for an EU Army...it's not necessary!

Greece was (is?) a basket case that should have been sorted significantly earlier! It's a BIG problem, but seems to be being handled reasonably well/diplomatically - which includes innuendos, half-truths and outright lies that 'diplomacy' is all about!

Not something I can really comment on, but they seem to have served UK fairly well!

Economies constantly fluctuate relative to each other..that's the nature of economies!

Twaddle!!! But I concur with your concerns.

Examples required! There is likely no more (or less!) likelihood for security/data sharing breaches across EU than within UK - which is neither a comfort, nor something to really be obsessed about imo.

Illegal Immigration into EU, therefore potentially UK, is a huge problem! UK is not the worst affected! Immigration within the EU IS managed, if not necessarily as some would like!

Can't really comment, but I expect the same approach applies in every appointment anywhere (including yours) - appointers are looking for candidates likely to have the 'desired' approach wanted for the particular role.

That'll be insulting to the 48% (now minus me) who voted Remain then! And *to your fellow (or maybe superior!) bureaucrats!* Both unworthy of you imo!

Btw. This item is worth reading to dispel *some of *the 'unelected' hysteria! https://www.economist.com/the-econo...efer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats[/QUOTE]

FWiW while I have been a Company Chairman, held a few Directorships, a business consultant etc. but apart from a 6month secondment many decades ago I ain't been a civil servant/bureaucrat !!


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## Foxholer (Dec 2, 2018)

drdel said:



			FWiW while I have been a Company Chairman, held a few Directorships, a business consultant etc. but apart from a 6month secondment many decades ago I ain't been a civil servant/bureaucrat !!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification!

Peculiarly, apart from 'Company Chairman' my experience could be described similarlly, though my (NZ) Civil Service period was somewhat longer - 16 years.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And for the third time you still haven't acknowledged that the UK exports Â£400bn worth of goods. Remember your throwaway line of the UK has nowt to offer in the global market. Still avoiding it? You still haven't acknowledged what a difference the UK could make by changing/dropping tariffs and quotas nor what a reduction in corporation tax will do... but the streets of London will be lawless

I wonder why the Spanish train manufacturer has recently announced it will be opening a factory in Fife, or that Siemens has announced it will extend its facility in Hull to the tune of Â£10m? Oh that's right, because the UK would be stupid place to invest....

Click to expand...

It has been .. less than 30% of physical goods, of which there is less than 1% of food stuffs, the rest is or requires imports to finish .. so in reality you have over exaggerated or missed the reality.
The sad thing about brexit is itâ€™s based on flawed assumptions or the actual depth of what is happening in the economy is glossed over. Had it not been it would have the correct thing to do, a bit selfish but Good for the UK.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			It has been .. less than 30% of physical goods, of which there is less than 1% of food stuffs, the rest is or requires imports to finish .. so in reality you have over exaggerated or missed the reality.
The sad thing about brexit is itâ€™s based on flawed assumptions or the actual depth of what is happening in the economy is glossed over. Had it not been it would have the correct thing to do, a bit selfish but Good for the UK.
		
Click to expand...

It's a bit hard to export more than 1% of food goods when the French are knicking most of your fish from British seas. ðŸ‘


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## Foxholer (Dec 2, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And for the third time you still haven't acknowledged that the UK exports Â£400bn worth of goods. Remember your throwaway line of the UK has nowt to offer in the global market. Still avoiding it? You still haven't acknowledged what a difference the UK could make by changing/dropping tariffs and quotas nor what a reduction in corporation tax will do... but the streets of London will be lawless

I wonder why the Spanish train manufacturer has recently announced it will be opening a factory in Fife, or that Siemens has announced it will extend its facility in Hull to the tune of Â£10m? Oh that's right, because the UK would be stupid place to invest....

Click to expand...

Well, given that about 45% of UK exports are to the EU, they are actually in danger of being SUBJECT to tariffs/quotas! If not perhaps losing the manufacturing base to the EU of many of the companies involved. Not sure where you got that 400Bn from btw! 

I strongly suspect that the Spanish train manufacturer is expecting significant sales from UK Rail companies/HS2 and that there were a lot of 'hidden/boundary pushing' incentives involved - as there likely to be in many countries!


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			It has been .. less than 30% of physical goods, of which there is less than 1% of food stuffs, the rest is or requires imports to finish .. so in reality you have over exaggerated or missed the reality.
The sad thing about brexit is itâ€™s based on flawed assumptions or the actual depth of what is happening in the economy is glossed over. Had it not been it would have the correct thing to do, a bit selfish but Good for the UK.
		
Click to expand...

The reality is you have for the 4th time failed to acknowledge that the UK exports over Â£400bn worth of goods. Pretty much every country in the world imports raw materials and part finished components that go into products. Whether the part comes from within the UK or from outside the UK it is still part of the cost of manufacturing, just as it is around the world. 

The bottom line is the UK exports Â£400bn worth of goods. Remind me again... the UK has nothing of note that anyone wants. Yeah, right. Only Â£400bn worth of goods.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The reality is you have for the 4th time failed to acknowledge that the UK exports over Â£400bn worth of goods. Pretty much every country in the world imports raw materials and part finished components that go into products. Whether the part comes from within the UK or from outside the UK it is still part of the cost of manufacturing, just as it is around the world.

The bottom line is the UK exports Â£400bn worth of goods. Remind me again... the UK has nothing of note that anyone wants. Yeah, right. Only Â£400bn worth of goods.

Click to expand...

Break your Â£400bn .. down which goods did you have in mind?


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## Reemul (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Break your Â£400bn .. down which goods did you have in mind?
		
Click to expand...

I have to say you points do nothing for you and reading them makes me think you don't know what you are talking about and are another one of those, here is a statistic I read somewhere so will post it as it must be true. You then get challenged and slopey shoulders swings in to action. Best you bow out now imo


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Break your Â£400bn .. down which goods did you have in mind?
		
Click to expand...

Here you go, knock yourself out.........

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281807/largest-export-commodities-of-the-united-kingdom-uk/

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top-UK-exports.html


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## Foxholer (Dec 2, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The bottom line is the UK exports Â£400bn worth of goods. Remind me again... the UK has nothing of note that anyone wants. Yeah, right. Only Â£400bn worth of goods.

Click to expand...

Can you please point to a reference for the Â£400Bn of exports?

Oh and a split between EU and non-EU would be nice too!


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2018)

Reemul said:



			I have to say you points do nothing for you and reading them makes me think you don't know what you are talking about and are another one of those, here is a statistic I read somewhere so will post it as it must be true. You then get challenged and slopey shoulders swings in to action. Best you bow out now imo
		
Click to expand...

Gosh thatâ€™s a compelling argument, iâ€™ll Hop it now.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Here you go, knock yourself out.........

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281807/largest-export-commodities-of-the-united-kingdom-uk/

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top-UK-exports.html

Click to expand...

Thank you, car numbers second highest, they will reduce, not sure about the machinery or electrical stuff but pretty sure cost to produce will go up. 
But looking through it all, I am even more convinced we are not ready for a hard brexit ..
I am sure I will get the back lash for having those opinions based on data as opposed to the â€œI said soâ€ brigade.
Iâ€™ll take my leave on this thread now and Colchester thanks for the stats.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Thank you, car numbers second highest, they will reduce, not sure about the machinery or electrical stuff but pretty sure cost to produce will go up.
But looking through it all, I am even more convinced we are not ready for a hard brexit ..
I am sure I will get the back lash for having those opinions based on data as opposed to the â€œI said soâ€ brigade.
Iâ€™ll take my leave on this thread now and Colchester thanks for the stats.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I think its best you do as that hole is getting rather deep now.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 2, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes I think its best you do as that hole is getting rather deep now.
		
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You really are trigger


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Break your Â£400bn .. down which goods did you have in mind?
		
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Sorry, I forgot that Â£200bn worth of widgets don't count, and Â£100bn worth left handed screw drivers don't count either. You really are priceless. You just will not accept that the UK has Â£400bn of exports, but continue to believe the UK doesn't have anything the rest of the world want. You blew your credibility with the "UK has nothing of note." Apart from the Â£400bn, which doesn't count.

But seeing has you brought up the parts of products are shipped in, don't forget parts of products are shipped out too. Oh, that's right they don't count too because they are all blue with yellow stars on them.

Its like trying to debate with Hogan. It doesn't matter what facts are put in front of you, you either ignore them for post after post or resort to diminishing them because they're all unicorns.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 2, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Its like trying to debate with Hogan. It doesn't matter what facts are put in front of you, you either ignore them for post after post or resort to diminishing them because they're all unicorns.
		
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I think you'll find that our exports of unicorns to the EU are expected to drop by 50% if we leave the EU on Theresa May's agreed deal and by over 95% if we have a hard Brexit and leave with no deal, however if we remain in the Eu exports of unicorns are forecast to increase by 500000000%. And as everyone now requires a link to prove any stats...........

www.imighthavemadethatup.co.uk


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## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Here you go, knock yourself out.........

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281807/largest-export-commodities-of-the-united-kingdom-uk/

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top-UK-exports.html

Click to expand...

Am missing something here Colch me man. You have been asked to provide figures which some have doubted. You have Shown said figures in black and white. Yet now those figures " could" change and are still not acceptable. It seems that even on this forum facts are not accepted. ðŸ˜³


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## User62651 (Dec 2, 2018)

One stat or fact not mentioned but bound to be denied is that although the UK has the worlds 5th or 6th largest economy, when it comes to standard of living we are way down around 39th or 40th. That suggests we do not look after our own people as it is and wealth is either miss-spent, wasted or is retained by the few or there are too many people for it to to be spread around. Recent UN report and numbers using food banks and numbers of kids in poverty stats and just driving through so many areas of UK would back that up. Just saying as any Brexit will have a negative economic impact and will make it worse for the poor. Messrs Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Gove, Mrs May and the wealthy retired like Dave Cameron will be totally sheltered of course.


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## Pants (Dec 2, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			and wealth is either miss-spent, wasted or is retained by the few or there are too many people for it to to be spread around.
		
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Sounds like several of the reasons the majority voted out


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## Mudball (Dec 2, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			One stat or fact not mentioned but bound to be denied is that although the UK has the worlds 5th or 6th largest economy, when it comes to standard of living we are way down around 39th or 40th. That suggests we do not look after our own people as it is and wealth is either miss-spent, wasted or is retained by the few or there are too many people for it to to be spread around. Recent UN report and numbers using food banks and numbers of kids in poverty stats and just driving through so many areas of UK would back that up. Just saying as any Brexit will have a negative economic impact and will make it worse for the poor. Messrs Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Gove, Mrs May and the wealthy retired like Dave Cameron will be totally sheltered of course.
		
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Brexit or no Brexit.. this is one thing I worry about. Even though (apparently) I am a capitalist living in the south, I donâ€™t understand this blanket notion that the UK is the land of milk and honey. I donâ€™t know if this is the throwback to the empire or ignorance or arragance or mix of all this. 

It is easy to fight an ideological battle of in/out when there is money in the bank. As my friend in the south who votes Remain but his family in the North voted Leave says.. those who have not benefited from the economic gains (mostly in the North) voted Leave as they donâ€™t see the benefits of EU while those in the South drive their flashy German cars .. 

I m sure I have stepped on many toes so everyone wants to throw a knife .. so go ahead while I exit Left..


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Brexit or no Brexit.. this is one thing I worry about. Even though (apparently) I am a capitalist living in the south, I donâ€™t understand this blanket notion that the UK is the land of milk and honey. I donâ€™t know if this is the throwback to the empire or ignorance or arragance or mix of all this.

It is easy to fight an ideological battle of in/out when there is money in the bank. As my friend in the south who votes Remain but his family in the North voted Leave says.. those who have not benefited from the economic gains (mostly in the North) voted Leave as they donâ€™t see the benefits of EU while those in the South drive their flashy German cars ..

I m sure I have stepped on many toes so everyone wants to throw a knife .. so go ahead while I exit Left..
		
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Oh dear. So everyone in the south drive flashy german  cars.  Oh dear!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			You really are trigger
		
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Ah!  Wondered how long that would take you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 3, 2018)

Does anyone on here believe that May should not show the other political party's the advice the UK governments legal department have given her regarding leaving the EU ?


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## USER1999 (Dec 3, 2018)

This info should be out in the open, for everyone to view.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 3, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does anyone on here believe that May should not show the other political party's the advice the UK governments legal department have given her regarding leaving the EU ?
		
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I'm kind of undecided on this one, possibly because I don't know enough about it to make an informed decision. My initial reaction was that the advice should be published, especially as parliament have voted to that effect, but I don't know how such matters have been handled previously, if this would set a precedent for future decisions or if it undermines lawyer/client confidentiality.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 3, 2018)

https://brexitcentral.com/leaked-co...ump-contradicts-may-adds-brexiteers-concerns/


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## MegaSteve (Dec 3, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does anyone on here believe that May should not show the other political party's the advice the UK governments legal department have given her regarding leaving the EU ?
		
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Well, I believe any parliamentarian that votes, in favour, without being fully informed is letting the electorate down...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 3, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



https://brexitcentral.com/leaked-co...ump-contradicts-may-adds-brexiteers-concerns/

Click to expand...

I think this is where it will end up, in endless legal challenges whilst the country is just in a perpetual state of flux and division.

Anyone remember the good old days of 2016 when, although Europe was a genuine issue, it was kind of blown out of proportion by a few hard righters and the Tory party fears about UKIP getting a few of their votes. But we also cared in elections about schools, the NHS, policing, welfare services, the environment. I was hearing this morning on the radio that one option if the vote is not passed is to have another general election before Christmas.  Can you imagine what that would be like, and how little anything else apart from Brexit would be discussed.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 3, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm kind of undecided on this one, possibly *because I don't know enough about it to make an informed decision*. My initial reaction was that the advice should be published, especially as parliament have voted to that effect, but I don't know how such matters have been handled previously, if this would set a precedent for future decisions or if it undermines lawyer/client confidentiality.
		
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Hey, never stopped anyone else from giving their opinion on Brexit.  Be dum tish...


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## MegaSteve (Dec 3, 2018)

For the pendants that seem to feel needing to know the ins and outs of the proverbial ducks backside to decide which way to vote... The only FACT I needed (and I suspect same for many others) to know is the wholly corrupt bureaucracy that infests  Brussels needs kicking into touch...

And, if this doesn't happen I'll have to consider donning my hi-vis and take to the streets!


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## Foxholer (Dec 3, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			...The only FACT I needed (and I suspect same for many others) to know is the wholly corrupt bureaucracy that infests  Brussels needs kicking into touch...
		
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Given your assertion that it is a FACT, can you please provide some evidence - 3 recent examples will suffice - of how it (the EU bureaucracy) is 'wholly corrupt'?

Note: I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you. I merely prefer to see some evidence before deciding whether believing some of the rhetoric - from both sides of the 'debate'!


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## Foxholer (Dec 3, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			......
http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top-UK-exports.html

Click to expand...

That's why I challenge the 400Bn value. According to the above to the above link it's 445Bn USD which equates to pretty much Â£350Bn. Still a sizeable value, but I'd like to see where the 400Bn value came from. I don't believe it's merely a curency rate difference.

Of course such statistics can be manipulated (aka L,DL&S!). Boris proudly noted in a radio prog that UK exports to Korea had doubled since 2010. However, he didn't mention that the increase coincided with a trade deal negotiated by the EU! Nor the relatively small values involved - from 3Bn to 6Bn.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 3, 2018)

Martin Selmayr (sp?)... Arrival in office should be sufficient...

The tip of an iceberg of how many will have found themselves in a position of power in Brussels...

Let's not forget the huge sums paid illegally to Airbus...
All 'swept under the carpet '...

Again, probably just the top of the proverbial iceberg...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 3, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Martin Selmayr (sp?)... Arrival in office should be sufficient...

The tip of an iceberg of how many will have found themselves in a position of power in Brussels...

Let's not forget the huge sums paid illegally to Airbus...
All 'swept under the carpet '...

Again, probably just the top of the proverbial iceberg...
		
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If you are going to get upset about people being promoted to positions they are not really qualified to do, mostly down to their political allegiances and who their friends in power are, then please do not look at how most ministers in this country get their jobs.  Also if you are concerned about corruption so much then again do not look at one of our shining examples of manufacturing excellence, Rolls Royce.  I agree that none of this is good and should be eliminated, but to assume that it is just the EU doing this, we never succumb to such things and once we leave it will all go away is fanciful at best. 

And Airbus support a lot of good jobs in the UK so means to an end and all that.....


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## MegaSteve (Dec 3, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			If you are going to get upset about people being promoted to positions they are not really qualified to do, mostly down to their political allegiances and who their friends in power are, then please do not look at how most ministers in this country get their jobs.  Also if you are concerned about corruption so much then again do not look at one of our shining examples of manufacturing excellence, Rolls Royce.  I agree that none of this is good and should be eliminated, but to assume that it is just the EU doing this, we never succumb to such things and once we leave it will all go away is fanciful at best.

And Airbus support a lot of good jobs in the UK so means to an end and all that.....
		
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As much as I would like the opportunity to kick 'our' bureaucracy into touch I doubt I will get that chance...


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## drdel (Dec 3, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Does anyone on here believe that May should not show the other political party's the advice the UK governments legal department have given her regarding leaving the EU ?
		
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The advice was provided on the basis it was classed as confidential/secure - the authors have the right for that to remain the condition.

In addition the negotiations are not yet complete and information the advice may contain could be advantageous/useful to the EU so it would be stupid to place such, potentially, sensitive data in the public domain where it will inevitably be miss-quoted and manipulated by the media etc. 

Should we not demand the EU show us the 'advice' they have been given? - after all we are still a member with several MEPs

Perhaps it could shown on a confidential basis to selected MP from across the HoC & HoL.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 3, 2018)

drdel said:



			The advice was provided on the basis it was classed as confidential/secure - the authors have the right for that to remain the condition.

In addition the negotiations are not yet complete and information the advice may contain could be advantageous/useful to the EU so it would be stupid to place such, potentially, sensitive data in the public domain where it will inevitably be miss-quoted and manipulated by the media etc.

Should we not demand the EU show us the 'advice' they have been given? - after all we are still a member with several MEPs

Perhaps it could shown on a confidential basis to selected MP from across the HoC & HoL.
		
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And perhaps Privy Councillors like the Scottish First Minister.
After all this does involve the future destination and security of the UK. [not just England and Wales]

Seems to me like you are saying that the UK voters are too thick to handle the truth.
Or
As I suspect, the information is so damaging to May that she would have to cancel Brexit and resign.

Oh and by the way there are no SNP Lords so that would make the HoL access slightly skewed.


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## drdel (Dec 3, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			And perhaps Privy Councillors like the Scottish First Minister.
After all this does involve the future destination and security of the UK. [not just England and Wales]

*Seems to me like you are saying that the UK voters are too thick to handle the truth.
Or
As I suspect, the information is so damaging to May that she would have to cancel Brexit and resign.*

Oh and by the way there are no SNP Lords so that would make the HoL access slightly skewed.
		
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Those are your spurious deductions because of the spin you wish to apply. 

I said what I meant and had I meant to offer an opinion on what the advice concluded then I'd have expressed it !


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2018)

Government face contempt vote over legal advice.
Anyone watch the Attorney General at the dispatch box yesterday, what an arrogant display, especially to the women MP's
One MP told him to stop acting like Rumpold of the Bailey.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Government face contempt vote over legal advice.
Anyone watch the Attorney General at the dispatch box yesterday, what an arrogant display, especially to the women MP's
One MP told him to stop acting like Rumpold of the Bailey. 

Click to expand...

Must admit I did not see it.  What did he do that particularly upset women MPs?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Must admit I did not see it.  What did he do that particularly upset women MPs?
		
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Very condescending in his manner and speech......the actual debate was TV gold.
The Speaker had a job to keep it in order order.

Latest  bit of punditry says May will lose by over 100 votes and will offer her resignation.
It will not be accepted as most of her front bench have now been suspended from Parliament.


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Must admit I did not see it.  What did he do that particularly upset women MPs?
		
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Nothing...


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2018)

ger147 said:



			Nothing...
		
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My Mrs would strongly disagree with you, I did not notice it until she pointed it out to me.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My Mrs would strongly disagree with you, I did not notice it until she pointed it out to me.
		
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You have been asked to justify your comment and in the manner of a politician you dont give a suitable reply.

Either explain clearly what he said that would particularly upset Women MPs or I am calling BS on your comment.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2018)

Good news ...looks like there will be no legal objections for the UK to cancel Brexit.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My Mrs would strongly disagree with you, I did not notice it until she pointed it out to me.
		
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Did he ask the female MPs to start twerking? Or have I got my every day sexism stories confused today?


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## IanM (Dec 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good news ...looks like there will be no legal objections for the UK to cancel Brexit.
		
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Meaning  = the House of Commons can do what it like as long as the European Courts agree.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 4, 2018)

Well, I am getting more and more enthusiastic about following the lead of our friends across the channel...


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2018)

Goodness me.... a Welsh Tory just used a headline form the Scotsman to support his SNP BAAAAAAd story in the HoC
How desperately out of touch.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 4, 2018)

Looks like government will  publish the legal advice in full after all and the government is in contempt of parliament. Strong and stable as she goes.....

Although I have absolutely no idea who that will favour. Does it make a hard Brexit more likely, no Brexit, postponed Brexit, a 2nd Referendum, Norway plus plus. Who knows anymore. It's all a conspiracy you know.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looks like government will  publish the legal advice in full after all and the government is in contempt of parliament. Strong and stable as she goes.....

Although I have absolutely no idea who that will favour. Does it make a hard Brexit more likely, no Brexit, postponed Brexit, a 2nd Referendum, Norway plus plus. Who knows anymore. It's all a conspiracy you know.
		
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Pure coincidence that Nicola was visiting Westminster for a  yesterday.


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My Mrs would strongly disagree with you, I did not notice it until she pointed it out to me.
		
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Is your wife a female MP? No, I didn't think so...


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

This is a biggie IMO...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428579

Not a binding ruling by the ECJ but a very good indication of how they will rule if it comes to it.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 4, 2018)

ger147 said:



			This is a biggie IMO...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428579

Not a binding ruling by the ECJ but a very good indication of how they will rule if it comes to it.
		
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I wonder if this line from the ruling will become important.......

"it should also have the power to change its mind during the two-year exit process specified in Article 50 of the EU treaty".

Does that mean that if May's deal is rejected and we get an extension to Article 50 and try to renegotiate that we can't cancel our withdrawal after the two year period is up?


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looks like government will  publish the legal advice in full after all and the government is in contempt of parliament. Strong and stable as she goes.....

Although I have absolutely no idea who that will favour. Does it make a hard Brexit more likely, no Brexit, postponed Brexit, a 2nd Referendum, Norway plus plus. Who knows anymore. It's all a conspiracy you know.
		
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One take from twitter  '_The Dominic Grieve amendment has won the House of Commons vote and defeated the government. It effectively takes a no deal Brexit off the table and puts parliament in control if Mayâ€™s deal is defeated. A huge moment. This marks the beginning of the end for ERG / hard Brexiters.' _


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wonder if this line from the ruling will become important.......

"it should also have the power to change its mind during the two-year exit process specified in Article 50 of the EU treaty".

Does that mean that if May's deal is rejected and we get an extension to Article 50 and try to renegotiate that we can't cancel our withdrawal after the two year period is up?
		
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We have no right to an extension, that would need to be negotiated/agreed with the EU.

The most significant point, assuming the ECJ go with this ruling, and based on what is going on as I write in the HoC's, MP's could vote to revoke our A50 notice and cancel Brexit altogether...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 4, 2018)

We may be going full fjords and trolls.  From the lovely Laura K on twitter '_ Pretty clear that group around the @stephenkinnock and @*NickBoles* 's idea for Norway type option are ready to pounce as soon as PM's plan rejected - Grieve amendment gives them a mechanism if it's passed, that vote could also be extremely tight' _


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			One take from twitter  '_The Dominic Grieve amendment has won the House of Commons vote and defeated the government. It effectively takes a no deal Brexit off the table and puts parliament in control if Mayâ€™s deal is defeated. A huge moment. This marks the beginning of the end for ERG / hard Brexiters.' _

Click to expand...

May is now responsible for something she no longer has any control over. It's been coming since her decision to hold an election and lose the small majority she had. The MP's as a whole can now do as they see fit and to be honest, a cross party approach should have been taken from the start IMO.

But it wasn't, she decided to try and get it done as a government rather than as a parliament. She has completely failed in that respect and if I was her I'd be off to the Palace...


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## User2021 (Dec 4, 2018)

Couldn't make this up


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 4, 2018)

ger147 said:



			May is now responsible for something she no longer has any control over. It's been coming since her decision to hold an election and lose the small majority she had. The MP's as a whole can now do as they see fit and to be honest, a cross party approach should have been taken from the start IMO.

But it wasn't, she decided to try and get it done as a government rather than as a parliament. She has completely failed in that respect and if I was her I'd be off to the Palace...
		
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Can't argue with that. She also started the clock on Article 50 too soon IMHO.  Trouble is that I can't see any replacement for her doing any better.  From what I can tell, there is no majority in parliament for any option.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 4, 2018)

ger147 said:



			We have no right to an extension, that would need to be negotiated/agreed with the EU.

The most significant point, assuming the ECJ go with this ruling, and based on what is going on as I write in the HoC's, MP's could vote to revoke our A50 notice and cancel Brexit altogether...
		
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Sorry didn't mean to imply that. I suppose I should've put if we were granted an extension and tried to renegotiate.

It would take some very brave/stupid MPs or those looking to commit career suicide for them to revoke Article 50 in the HOC. It would show utter contempt for around half of the UK population.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can't argue with that. She also started the clock on Article 50 too soon IMHO.  Trouble is that I can't see any replacement for her doing any better.  From what I can tell, *there is no majority in parliament for any option.*

Click to expand...

Remain?


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can't argue with that. She also started the clock on Article 50 too soon IMHO.  Trouble is that I can't see any replacement for her doing any better.  From what I can tell, there is no majority in parliament for any option.
		
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And THAT is the thing MP's now need to resolve, as until they can agree what they DO want to do, an exit with no deal is NOT off the table...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 4, 2018)

ger147 said:



			And THAT is the thing MP's now need to resolve, as *until they can agree what they DO want to do,* an exit with no deal is NOT off the table...
		
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Too many entrenched views and an over prominence given to the noisy majority on both sides means there's little chance of that happening I think. If parliament now have the final say then there will never be a majority for no deal.


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Too many entrenched views and an over prominence given to the noisy majority on both sides means there's little chance of that happening I think. If parliament now have the final say then there will never be a majority for no deal.
		
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There doesn't need to be a majority for No Deal, all that needs to happen for a No Deal to happen is the arguing continues until we run out of time...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 4, 2018)

ger147 said:



			There doesn't need to be a majority for No Deal, all that needs to happen for a No Deal to happen is the arguing continues until we run out of time...
		
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But would there not be a majority in favour of playing extra time?


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			But would there not be a majority in favour of playing extra time?
		
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And the EU can tell us to do one...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 4, 2018)

ger147 said:



			And the EU can tell us to do one...
		
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I suspect that anything that would delay our exit would be OK with the EU.


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect that anything that would delay our exit would be OK with the EU.
		
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I would argue otherwise i.e. we have agreed a deal with them that they have approved. They're not going to let things drag on indefinitely so I can't see us getting an extension just to let us continue to argue amongst ourselves.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 4, 2018)

ger147 said:



			I would argue otherwise i.e. we have agreed a deal with them that they have approved. They're not going to let things drag on indefinitely so I can't see us getting an extension just to let us continue to argue amongst ourselves.
		
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I'd say they won't want us to extend the time to come back with more demands on them.  But if they feel that extra time may lead to a softer brexit or even no brexit at all they may well be amenable to the idea.


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd say they won't want us to extend the time to come back with more demands on them.  But if they feel that extra time may lead to a softer brexit or even no brexit at all they may well be amenable to the idea.
		
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But as per my original point, there doesn't need to be a majority in the HoC in favour of No Deal for a No Deal to happen. At the moment, that's where we headed with the PM's deal is voted down next week.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 4, 2018)

ger147 said:



			But as per my original point, there doesn't need to be a majority in the HoC in favour of No Deal for a No Deal to happen. At the moment, that's where we headed with the PM's deal is voted down next week.
		
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I am pretty confident that we will not go for a no deal as it would be political suicide. And today's events where parliament seems to have more say reinforces that.


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I am pretty confident that we will not go for a no deal as it would be political suicide. And today's events where parliament seems to have more say reinforces that.
		
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There is no majority for an alternative at present...


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 4, 2018)

ger147 said:



			I would argue otherwise i.e. we have agreed a deal with them that they have approved. They're not going to let things drag on indefinitely so I can't see us getting an extension just to let us continue to argue amongst ourselves.
		
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If May's deal is as bad for us and good for them as is claimed why would they; can they not then effectively kick us out on the agreed May deal by refusing any extension?


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## ger147 (Dec 4, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			If May's deal is as bad for us and good for them as is claimed why would they; can they not then effectively kick us out on the agreed May deal by refusing any extension?
		
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The May deal isn't a deal unless the UK parliament approves it.  If we run out of time we'll be out of the tent with no deal at all, the EU can't enforce the May deal on the UK without their consent.

The EU may not want to go down the No Deal road either as the general consensus is that's also bad for them, but as the UK parliament can't come to a consensus on what they want both the UK and the EU could end up with the no deal outcome both claim they want to avoid.


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## bluewolf (Dec 4, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			If May's deal is as bad for us and good for them as is claimed why would they; can they not then effectively kick us out on the agreed May deal by refusing any extension?
		
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If there's no extension and no agreement on the deal on offer then it will be No Deal. That's the only option...


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 4, 2018)

Thank you both.


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## Mudball (Dec 4, 2018)

The funny Irish lads are at it again >> 


	
	





__ https://www.facebook.com/146505212039213/posts/5597543986935281


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I am pretty confident that we will not go for a no deal as it would be political suicide. And today's events where parliament seems to have more say reinforces that.
		
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Please explain how a No Deal would be political suicide?.


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## Slime (Dec 4, 2018)

ger147 said:



			The May deal isn't a deal unless the UK parliament approves it.  If we run out of time we'll be out of the tent with no deal at all, the EU can't enforce the May deal on the UK without their consent.

*The EU may not want to go down the No Deal road either as the general consensus is that's also bad for them*, but as the UK parliament can't come to a consensus on what they want both the UK and the EU could end up with the no deal outcome both claim they want to avoid.
		
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Please excuse my ignorance, but how can a 'No Deal' Brexit be bad for them as well as bad for us?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2018)

I can see this parliamentary debacle having some unexpected side effects in UK politics. Should the result of the current peoples vote not be respected then we will see some shifts to right in the next election.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 4, 2018)

Slime said:



			Please excuse my ignorance, but how can a 'No Deal' Brexit be bad for them as well as bad for us?
		
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Just take the car industry.
Itâ€™s been said that if we leave we wonâ€™t get any parts under the Just in time system.
But the EU countries who make these parts canâ€™t deliver them , so itâ€™s not ideal for either party.
Do this for every business that uses this system.

They canâ€™t fish in our waters ?

The list is endless how it also impacts on the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just take the car industry.
Itâ€™s been said that if we leave we wonâ€™t get any parts under the Just in time system.
But the EU countries who make these parts canâ€™t deliver them , so itâ€™s not ideal for either party.
Do this for every business that uses this system.

They canâ€™t fish in our waters ?

The list is endless how it also impacts on the EU.
		
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You are correct it has been said that if we leave without a deal then parts for car manufacturers usin the Just In Time system of supply won't get any parts.

Lets take a look at that premise.  We must assume the parts are made outside the UK and delivered by Lorries across the channel. If this is the case then what exactly will stop these parts from arriving in the UK, do you think the UK would somehow make it difficult for these lorries to come into the UK?
Why do you think we would do that.   Do you honestly believe that a car production line relies solely on parts being delivered that same day by a lorry driving along our road systems from a channel port,  If that was the case there would hardly be a day when production was not stopped.  It just doesn't work that way, the car manufacturers have large local warehouses of parts that deliver the required components as required.


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## ger147 (Dec 5, 2018)

Slime said:



			Please excuse my ignorance, but how can a 'No Deal' Brexit be bad for them as well as bad for us?
		
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The general consensus is that new trade barriers, tariffs, uncertainty etc. will be bad for everyone, not just the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2018)

The other blindingly obvious and extremely sensible 'deal' is to cancel the whole Brexit scenario, but the Britnat separatists would rather see the UK totally destroyed and broken up than that.
Looks like they are going to challenge May's leadership.


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2018)

Anyone else think that Farage is angling to join the Conservatives? That would be the absolute cherry on top of the turdcake that is British politics at the moment...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain how a No Deal would be political suicide?.
		
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Simply that the economic impact of a hard Brexit for a large percentage of the population would be too damaging to the fiscal reputation of the Tory party.  Assuming they are still in government if/when we end up with a hard brexit.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Anyone else think that Farage is angling to join the Conservatives? That would be the absolute cherry on top of the turdcake that is British politics at the moment...
		
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If one of the more right of he right wingers gets control of the Tory party then not out of the question. It could be the Farage - Rees-Mogg dream team.....

Perhaps Farage has realised he's never going to become an MP with UKIP.  So the Tories parachute him into one of the more right leaning constituencies and boom.  In fact I kind of wish they would have thought of this 2 years ago instead of promising a referendum to appease UKIP.


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## Slab (Dec 5, 2018)

Is it just me or do some MPâ€™s seem to be basing their deal agreement/disagreement on how they voted in the referendum rather than what the country and people need. Shouldnâ€™t they be well passed that by now. Pro or anti exit it really doesnâ€™t matter anymore 

Politicians created the mess and canâ€™t even agree that it needs cleaned up let alone the best way to clean it up!

Itâ€™s staggering that the people are not holding them to account more. Happy to get out of bed for a black friday deal but wont demand their MP sort out a brexit deal


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## HughJars (Dec 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I can see this parliamentary debacle having some unexpected side effects in UK politics. Should the result of the current peoples vote not be respected then we will see some shifts to right in the next election.
		
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Except for viewers in Scotland, polling shows Tories back to near wipe out levels again.


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## HughJars (Dec 5, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			If there's no extension and no agreement on the deal on offer then it will be No Deal. That's the only option...
		
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As Johanna Cherry and her group have proved, No Brexit at all is also an option.


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## drdel (Dec 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You are correct it has been said that if we leave without a deal then parts for car manufacturers usin the Just In Time system of supply won't get any parts.

Lets take a look at that premise.  We must assume the parts are made outside the UK and delivered by Lorries across the channel. If this is the case then what exactly will stop these parts from arriving in the UK, do you think the UK would somehow make it difficult for these lorries to come into the UK?
Why do you think we would do that.   Do you honestly believe that a car production line relies solely on parts being delivered that same day by a lorry driving along our road systems from a channel port,  If that was the case there would hardly be a day when production was not stopped.  It just doesn't work that way, the car manufacturers have large local warehouses of parts that deliver the required components as required.
		
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Car makers use 'Just in Time' manufacture, not Just in time deliveries. Parts usually come into 'local' warehouses in full truckloads. The are sorted into batches in production sequence: it is these local trucks that feed the 'line'.

Freeports can be set up that, like 'bonded goods' allow tax and duty to be managed inland.away from sea or airports.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You are correct it has been said that if we leave without a deal then parts for car manufacturers usin the Just In Time system of supply won't get any parts.

Lets take a look at that premise.  We must assume the parts are made outside the UK and delivered by Lorries across the channel. If this is the case then what exactly will stop these parts from arriving in the UK, do you think the UK would somehow make it difficult for these lorries to come into the UK?
Why do you think we would do that.   Do you honestly believe that a car production line relies solely on parts being delivered that same day by a lorry driving along our road systems from a channel port,  If that was the case there would hardly be a day when production was not stopped.  It just doesn't work that way, the car manufacturers have large local warehouses of parts that deliver the required components as required.
		
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Yes they hold stocks in the uk.
I am not saying it would stop right away but itâ€™s like anything that relies on the cross Chanel ports.
The stock would not be replenished as normal and over time be shortages.
Custom checks, tarriffs  and more red tape all take their toll eventually.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Anyone else think that Farage is angling to join the Conservatives? That would be the absolute cherry on top of the turdcake that is British politics at the moment...
		
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They will need a new leader soon.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

Slab said:



			Is it just me or do some MPâ€™s seem to be basing their deal agreement/disagreement on how they voted in the referendum rather than what the country and people need. Shouldnâ€™t they be well passed that by now. Pro or anti exit it really doesnâ€™t matter anymore 

Politicians created the mess and canâ€™t even agree that it needs cleaned up let alone the best way to clean it up!

Itâ€™s staggering that the people are not holding them to account more. Happy to get out of bed for a black friday deal but wont demand their MP sort out a brexit deal 

Click to expand...

The French know how to hold politicians to task.
But canâ€™t see that amount of civil unrest here.
But it worked in France.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2018)

drdel said:



			Car makers use 'Just in Time' manufacture, not Just in time deliveries. Parts usually come into 'local' warehouses in full truckloads. The are sorted into batches in production sequence: it is these local trucks that feed the 'line'.

Freeports can be set up that, like 'bonded goods' allow tax and duty to be managed inland.away from sea or airports.
		
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Thats correct. There were large 'Bonded Warehouses' in Bristol where tobacco was loaded direct from ships. No Tax revinue was paid untill the tobacco was taken from the warehouses.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			The French know how to hold politicians to task.
But canâ€™t see that amount of civil unrest here.
But it worked in France.
		
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Were you not around during the poll tax riots. Also take a look at UK history, you will find people here are very capable of rioting.


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## Slab (Dec 5, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			The French know how to hold politicians to task.
But canâ€™t see that amount of civil unrest here.
But it worked in France.
		
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I cant imagine the people in any other European country standing by and letting their politicians faff about like this


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Were you not around during the poll tax riots.
		
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Yes forgot them 
Well maybe we are capable of that.


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2018)

HughJars said:



			As Johanna Cherry and her group have proved, No Brexit at all is also an option.
		
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Yes, but only by decision. Failure to make a decision leads to No Deal. They (The Political Establishment) would have to propose and vote for Article 50 to be revoked or else we Exit with No Deal.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2018)

Slab said:



			Is it just me or do some MPâ€™s seem to be basing their deal agreement/disagreement on how they voted in the referendum rather than what the country and people need. Shouldnâ€™t they be well passed that by now. Pro or anti exit it really doesnâ€™t matter anymore

Politicians created the mess and canâ€™t even agree that it needs cleaned up let alone the best way to clean it up!

Itâ€™s staggering that the people are not holding them to account more. Happy to get out of bed for a black friday deal but *wont demand their MP sort out a brexit deal *

Click to expand...

You could argue that MPs are basing their thoughts/actions on what they believe in. And to them they may well think that is what the country needs.  Hence why are there so polarised opinions? 

We can demand all we like but the current lot with their current approach don't seem capable, I'd argue mostly as there was no proper planning for what would occur after the vote or after we triggered article 50.

Although having said that, I think Grieve's amendment yesterday is critical as it gives Parliament as a whole a lot more say in where we go if/when TMays plan is not agreed. So you could argue that they will then try and sort it out as a Parliament.  Remember when we 1st started the process the intention was for the whole thing to be got through with no votes or parliamentary scrutiny, so we have come a long way since then.  You can't help thinking that if they would have started off on that basis then we would be a lot further down the line than we are now.

But still does not get away from the fact that no matter what is 'sorted out' it will not please a large amount of people. And it will fester like an open sore, leaving us a very divided and in my opinion poorer (not just in the financial sense) country for it.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

May is being forced to publish the legal advice today.
This just shows we canâ€™t trust MPs to tell us the truth.
Another referendum would not settle this as we know a lot more now but they still wonâ€™t tell us all the facts.
People voted to leave because big business left them behind.
Globalisation just wasnâ€™t helping more than 52% of the population.
Massive companies avoiding taxes ,the rich looking after themselves.
Immigration impacted on low wages.
But all MPs are bothered about is business the very thing the people voted against.
If they screw this up and it looks like they are going to god knows what will happen.
But just staying in the EU is NOT the answer.

Cameron is responsible with the EU ,when he asked them for some concessions all they gave him was a kick up the backside that was the start of all this.
So the EU have themselves to blame as well.


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			May is being forced to publish the legal advice today.
This just shows we canâ€™t trust MPs to tell us the truth.
Another referendum would not settle this as we know a lot more now but they still wonâ€™t tell us all the facts.
People voted to leave because big business left them behind.
Globalisation just wasnâ€™t helping more than 52% of the population.
Massive companies avoiding taxes ,the rich looking after themselves.
Immigration impacted on low wages.
But all MPs are bothered about is business the very thing the people voted against.
If they screw this up and it looks like they are going to god knows what will happen.
But just staying in the EU is NOT the answer.

Cameron is responsible with the EU ,when he asked them for some concessions all they gave him was a kick up the backside that was the start of all this.
So the EU have themselves to blame as well.
		
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Somewhat ironic that you say that people voted Leave to rein in Big Business. When the very people who are pushing in Parliament for No Deal are those in the pockets of Big Business who will benefit the most from the future changes. 

Employment Law reviews, Low Taxation to encourage outside investment, Ultra Free Market economics to reduce the Welfare State. 

It would appear, on the surface, that the people who will benefit the least are those same individuals who voted for it (in your argument).


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			May is being forced to publish the legal advice today.
This just shows we canâ€™t trust MPs to tell us the truth.
Another referendum would not settle this as we know a lot more now but they still wonâ€™t tell us all the facts.
*People voted to leave because big business left them behind.
Globalisation just wasnâ€™t helping more than 52% of the population.
Massive companies avoiding taxes ,the rich looking after themselves.*
Immigration impacted on low wages.
But all MPs are bothered about is business the very thing the people voted against.
If they screw this up and it looks like they are going to god knows what will happen.
But just staying in the EU is NOT the answer.

Cameron is responsible with the EU ,when he asked them for some concessions all they gave him was a kick up the backside that was the start of all this.
So the EU have themselves to blame as well.
		
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And this is all the fault of the EU how?

You say staying in the EU is not the answer but am genuinely interested in how leaving the EU will address the highlighted points?  It's not as if the EU had aggressively promoted the rampant growth of capitalism as they are more socialist if anything.   As Bluewolf correctly points out, a lot of the ERG lot want a low tax low regulation economy.  Which I imagine will only exacerbate the highlighted points, not make them go away.

I'm not kind of arguing that the highlighted issues are concerns, but am just confused how leaving the EU will help change the structural issues with our economy or the rise of global multinationals that are increasingly dominating society.  Again the EU seem to want to clip their wings if anything and stand up to the likes of the big tech companies.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 5, 2018)

Remain amazed there are folk that still believe the last forty or so years have been good to regular working folk.


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## woofers (Dec 5, 2018)

From a former PM of Australia.
I'm of the opinion that this is how France would deal with the EU if they decided to leave.

*Brexit: The final deal?*
Spectator Events

Itâ€™s pretty hard for Britainâ€™s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess thatâ€™s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesnâ€™t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, itâ€™s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.
Letâ€™s get one thing straight: a negotiation that youâ€™re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation â€” itâ€™s surrender. Itâ€™s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britainâ€™s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that heâ€™d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that sheâ€™s desperate for whatever deal she can get.
The EUâ€™s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that thereâ€™s only one â€˜dealâ€™ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because itâ€™s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, itâ€™s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. Itâ€™s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU canâ€™t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year â€” and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the worldâ€™s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You donâ€™t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows whatâ€™s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently â€” and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you donâ€™t need a deal. You donâ€™t need Michel Barnierâ€™s permission. If Europe knows whatâ€™s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.
Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain â€” but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign workerâ€™s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.
Fourth, no â€˜divorce billâ€™ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EUâ€™s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britainâ€™s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasnâ€™t getting its fair share, itâ€™s the EU that should be paying Britain.
Finally, thereâ€™s no need on Britainâ€™s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldnâ€™t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so thereâ€™s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so letâ€™s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know donâ€™t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.
Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US â€” but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? Weâ€™re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. Itâ€™s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And letâ€™s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.
As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britainâ€™s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britainâ€™s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it.
_Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015_


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Remain amazed there are folk that still believe the last forty or so years have been good to regular working folk.
		
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I doubt that anyone believes that. But if you look at the gap between richest and poorest within the EU then I'm amazed that you aren't looking closer to home. 

We have a wider gap than any other EU Country. Within the U.K. We have 6 of the poorest areas and also the richest. How does anyone lay that blame at the EU's door. In my personal opinion, you're blaming the wrong people.....


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## MegaSteve (Dec 5, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I doubt that anyone believes that. But if you look at the gap between richest and poorest within the EU then I'm amazed that you aren't looking closer to home.

We have a wider gap than any other EU Country. Within the U.K. We have 6 of the poorest areas and also the richest. How does anyone lay that blame at the EU's door. In my personal opinion, you're blaming the wrong people.....
		
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As I've already noted I'll never be in the fortunate position to deliver a red card to Westminster...


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Somewhat ironic that you say that people voted Leave to rein in Big Business. When the very people who are pushing in Parliament for No Deal are those in the pockets of Big Business who will benefit the most from the future changes. 

Employment Law reviews, Low Taxation to encourage outside investment, Ultra Free Market economics to reduce the Welfare State. 

It would appear, on the surface, that the people who will benefit the least are those same individuals who voted for it (in your argument).
		
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I never said they were right or wrong just that imo thatâ€™s why they wanted to leave.
Thereâ€™s been lies on both sides and will continue to be as NO politician can be trusted to tell the truth.
But politicians could not do their job so they voted to ask the public and it backfired on them.
This sorry state were in proves they are inept.

Just one thing nobody has ever answered for me is.
We have people using foodbanks, working people who need benefits just to survive.etc!
Thereâ€™s so much wrong with everything in this country at the moment.
But we have been in the EU for forty years so itâ€™s not that good being a member or is it.

I wouldnâ€™t put politicians in charge of a stagnight in a brewery as they would cock that up.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			As I've already noted I'll never be in the fortunate position to deliver a red card to Westminster...
		
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Or Brussels


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			As I've already noted I'll never be in the fortunate position to deliver a red card to Westminster...
		
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But, what if you're delivering your red card to the very people who are actually holding those responsible back?


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I doubt that anyone believes that. But if you look at the gap between richest and poorest within the EU then I'm amazed that you aren't looking closer to home. 

We have a wider gap than any other EU Country. Within the U.K. We have 6 of the poorest areas and also the richest. How does anyone lay that blame at the EU's door. In my personal opinion, you're blaming the wrong people.....
		
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In a nut shell it is your opinion which you are entitled to .
But the personal opinion of 52% of the UK is that they want to leave.
Be it right  or wrong thatâ€™s how democracy works.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			But, what if you're delivering your red card to the very people who are actually holding those responsible back?
		
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BUT what if heâ€™s not.
There is always a but, could , possibly.
Thatâ€™s one of the main problems nobody knows!

Politicos are scared they may have to do a job and not just blame the EU for everything.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 5, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			But, what if you're delivering your red card to the very people who are actually holding those responsible back?
		
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With the likes of Major and Blair sloping off to Brussels to sign us up for 'deals' we were not consulted on...
I have my doubts...


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			In a nut shell it is your opinion which you are entitled to .
But the personal opinion of 52% of the UK is that they want to leave.
Be it right  or wrong thatâ€™s how democracy works.
		
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That's not my argument. I'm merely discussing a point that Megasteve raised. I'm not getting into the rights or wrongs of leaving...


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			BUT what if heâ€™s not.
There is always a but, could , possibly.
Thatâ€™s one of the main problems nobody knows!

Politicos are scared they may have to do a job and not just blame the EU for everything.
		
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In your opinion. 
Oh, and if nobody knows then what the hell have we been debating for the last 2 years. 

Oh, and it's not the Politicos blaming the EU for everything. It would appear to be the Leave campaign and voters ðŸ¤”


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Yes, but only by decision. Failure to make a decision leads to No Deal. They (The Political Establishment) would have to propose and vote for Article 50 to be revoked or else we Exit with No Deal.
		
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Seems to be quite a lot of support for revoking Art 50  in the UK.
The alternative is of course for Scotland and NI to remain in the EU and the [re-jigged] UK.
Amazing [not] that England and Wales have finally come round to the conclusion that there was always a problem with Brexit and NI.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seems to be quite a lot of support for revoking Art 50  in the UK.
The alternative is of course for Scotland and NI to remain in the EU and the [re-jigged] UK.
Amazing [not] that England and Wales have finally come round to the conclusion that there was always a problem with Brexit and NI.
		
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At the risk of coming across as a bit pedantic Scotland and NI can't remain in the EU as they are not currently members. In exactly the same way that England and Wales aren't members of the EU. The UK is a member of the EU and the UK voted to leave.

And if Scotland were to remain in the EU what would be your solution for the Scotland/England border?


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			At the risk of coming across as a bit pedantic Scotland and NI can't remain in the EU as they are not currently members. In exactly the same way that England and Wales aren't members of the EU. The UK is a member of the EU and the UK voted to leave.

*And if Scotland were to remain in the EU what would be your solution for the* *Scotland/England border*?
		
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A hologram of Hadrian's Wall that can magically collect taxes and tarrifs from any vehicle passing it?  A virtual Mel Gibson in full Braveheart outfit where you chuck coins up his kilt as you pass the border? There's got to be some kind of technology like this that will work, you need to think outside the box.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seems to be quite a lot of support for revoking Art 50  in the UK.
The alternative is of course for Scotland and NI to remain in the EU and the [re-jigged] UK.
Amazing [not] that England and Wales have finally come round to the conclusion that there was always a problem with Brexit and NI.
		
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Is there ?
There seems to be a majority to leave!


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			With the likes of Major and Blair sloping off to Brussels to sign us up for 'deals' we were not consulted on...
I have my doubts...
		
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Yes I agree.
Politicians canâ€™t be trusted. I would like to know if they can hold the government in contempt of parliament!
Then why didnâ€™t they do this when Blair produced his dodgy document before we went to war in Iraq?
This could have stopped a WAR.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

Just seen on the news Teresa has been lying to us ,what a surprise!


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## Fade and Die (Dec 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seems to be quite a lot of support for revoking Art 50  in the UK.
The alternative is of course for Scotland and NI to remain in the EU and the [re-jigged] UK.
Amazing [not] that England and Wales have finally come round to the conclusion that there was always a problem with Brexit and NI.
		
Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I agree.
Politicians canâ€™t be trusted. I would like to know if they can hold the government in contempt of parliament!
Then why didnâ€™t they do this when Blair produced his dodgy document before we went to war in Iraq?
This could have stopped a WAR.
		
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Blair has never been found culpable of dodgy documentation.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 5, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			A hologram of Hadrian's Wall that can magically collect taxes and tarrifs from any vehicle passing it?  A virtual Mel Gibson in full Braveheart outfit where you chuck coins up his kilt as you pass the border? There's got to be some kind of technology like this that will work, you need to think outside the box.
		
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How foolish of me not to think of those options. One question for you though. After Brexit, once we've clamped down on immigration, will virtual Australians be given visas and be allowed to come here to work?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			May is being forced to publish the legal advice today.
This just shows we canâ€™t trust MPs to tell us the truth.
Another referendum would not settle this as we know a lot more now but they still wonâ€™t tell us all the facts.
People voted to leave because big business left them behind.
Globalisation just wasnâ€™t helping more than 52% of the population.
Massive companies avoiding taxes ,the rich looking after themselves.
Immigration impacted on low wages.
But all MPs are bothered about is business the very thing the people voted against.
If they screw this up and it looks like they are going to god knows what will happen.
But just staying in the EU is NOT the answer.

Cameron is responsible with the EU ,when he asked them for some concessions all they gave him was a kick up the backside that was the start of all this.
So the EU have themselves to blame as well.
		
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Would you prefer us to have no businesses.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Blair has never been found culpable of dodgy documentation.
		
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Thatâ€™s only because they wonâ€™t show the documents.
We will find out after 30yrs I think it is when they canâ€™t hide them anymore.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Would you prefer us to have no businesses.
		
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Of course not but you canâ€™t deny they are part of the equation.
Whatâ€™s your high st like , big business is killing/ killed mine.

People will vote on what impacts their life and 52% decided they donâ€™t like it at the moment.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Remain amazed there are folk that still believe the last forty or so years have been good to regular working folk.
		
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Too true.â€¦. what are we 6/7th richest nation in the world now with 4 million working poor relying on foodbanks and support from friends and family to survive. How the hell do you square that one off.
Around 40th nation in the quality of life league.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 5, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			A hologram of Hadrian's Wall that can magically collect taxes and tarrifs from any vehicle passing it?  A virtual Mel Gibson in full Braveheart outfit where you chuck coins up his kilt as you pass the border? There's got to be some kind of technology like this that will work, you need to think outside the box.
		
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OOI you've just pinched Mays NI proposal.

Scottish border is 100 miles shorter with very few connecting roads. Much easier to control and only let the nice people in.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OOI you've just pinched Mays NI proposal.

Scottish border is 100 miles shorter with very few connecting roads. Much easier to control and only let the nice people in.
		
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Don't leave then, you won't get back.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OOI you've just pinched Mays NI proposal.

Scottish border is 100 miles shorter with very few connecting roads. Much easier to control and only let the nice people in.
		
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That could sort the problem once and for all.
England Ireland Scotland And Wales all go independent.
Now that would be a referendum


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 5, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Of course not but you canâ€™t deny they are part of the equation.
Whatâ€™s your high st like , big business is killing/ killed mine.

People will vote on what impacts their life and 52% decided they donâ€™t like it at the moment.
		
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Again I'm baffled why the EU is at fault for the state of our high streets?  By all means vote for a party that has something in its manifesto about high street regeneration if it is a big issue to you. But blaming the EU for that is strange to say the least.


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## Pants (Dec 5, 2018)

LBC's James O'Brien (SILH's idol apparently).

Self opinionated, loves the sound of his own voice (25 mins ? or so monologue today), refuses to accept any view that doesn't agree with his own, particularly with regard to the UK leaving the EU.  Oh! James O'Brien that is, not SILH.  Hang on a mo though  ........

He has made clear though that he won't now appear on programs such as Question Time.  Is this because he fears debate with people with different views to his who can actually debate rather than those on the phone who he can browbeat and cut off if they strike a nerve????????


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 5, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Again I'm baffled why the EU is at fault for the state of our high streets?  By all means vote for a party that has something in its manifesto about high street regeneration if it is a big issue to you. But blaming the EU for that is strange to say the least.
		
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I havnt said itâ€™s the EUs fault!
I think itâ€™s more the dissolusion with our own politicians and arrogance of big business.
The Philip Green episode , CEOâ€™s of big companies refusing to attend commons select committee.
They just want a different politics and want our politicians to stop hiding behind the curtains.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Again I'm baffled why the EU is at fault for the state of our high streets?  By all means vote for a party that has something in its manifesto about high street regeneration if it is a big issue to you. But blaming the EU for that is strange to say the least.
		
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Whatâ€™s the use in voting when people want to overturn the result?
This is what politicians are trying to do.
The PM has made a complete mess by trying to please both sides when itâ€™s just not possible but she has just carried on regardless.
Politicians are just not listening and thatâ€™s why people want a change.

It might be worse out of the EU but it might not !


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2018)

woofers said:



			From a former PM of Australia.
I'm of the opinion that this is how France would deal with the EU if they decided to leave.

*Brexit: The final deal?*
Spectator Events

Itâ€™s pretty hard for Britainâ€™s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess thatâ€™s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesnâ€™t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, itâ€™s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.
Letâ€™s get one thing straight: a negotiation that youâ€™re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation â€” itâ€™s surrender. Itâ€™s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britainâ€™s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that heâ€™d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that sheâ€™s desperate for whatever deal she can get.
The EUâ€™s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that thereâ€™s only one â€˜dealâ€™ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because itâ€™s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, itâ€™s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. Itâ€™s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU canâ€™t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year â€” and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the worldâ€™s fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You donâ€™t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows whatâ€™s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently â€” and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you donâ€™t need a deal. You donâ€™t need Michel Barnierâ€™s permission. If Europe knows whatâ€™s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.
Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain â€” but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign workerâ€™s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.
Fourth, no â€˜divorce billâ€™ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EUâ€™s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britainâ€™s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasnâ€™t getting its fair share, itâ€™s the EU that should be paying Britain.
Finally, thereâ€™s no need on Britainâ€™s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldnâ€™t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so thereâ€™s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so letâ€™s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know donâ€™t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.
Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US â€” but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? Weâ€™re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. Itâ€™s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And letâ€™s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.
As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britainâ€™s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britainâ€™s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it.
_Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015_

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Is anyone aware of a rational response as to why this isn't practicable?


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Again I'm baffled why the EU is at fault for the state of our high streets?  By all means vote for a party that has something in its manifesto about high street regeneration if it is a big issue to you. But blaming the EU for that is strange to say the least.
		
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Many people think itâ€™s guilty by association. The version Iâ€™ve heard, not the High streets, is in 1973 the U.K. had a mining industry, a steel making industry, a car making industry, a ship building industry and a chemicals industry. Most have either gone or barely exist today.

So what have the EU done for us in protecting our manufacturing industries?

If you sit in a pub in the northeast of England and ask about the EU youâ€™re likely to get a very direct answer. When I started work in â€˜78 there were over 80,000 people directly employed on Teesside in steel making, chemicals and ship building. There are now less than 4,000.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Many people think itâ€™s guilty by association. The version Iâ€™ve heard, not the High streets, is in 1973 the U.K. had a mining industry, a steel making industry, a car making industry, a ship building industry and a chemicals industry. Most have either gone or barely exist today.

So what have the EU done for us in protecting our manufacturing industries?

If you sit in a pub in the northeast of England and ask about the EU youâ€™re likely to get a very direct answer. When I started work in â€˜78 there were over 80,000 people directly employed on Teesside in steel making, chemicals and ship building. There are now less than 4,000.
		
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I grew up in a mining town and also saw the demise of that industry.  But I'd argue that the decline of manufacturing and mining was mostly caused by government policy and global economic factors that we just can not isolate ourselves from.  I get protest votes and dissatisfaction with politicians, but I just feel people are protesting against the wrong targets with the EU if they are thinking that coming out will make any difference to the structure of our economy. As coming out will give even more power to the Eton Rifles or Comrade Corbyn. I'd be a little less worried if I thought we had a good bunch of politicians, especially ministers, who are mostly in it for the good of the country.

Taking it to a silly extreme it's like saying Cliff Richard has had a top ten hit in each of the last 5 decades, during which we have lost our manufacturing industry and seen the increase of zero hours contracts and increased minimum wage employment.  So let's ban Cliff from releasing singles as that will sort it out.


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## Dando (Dec 6, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I grew up in a mining town and also saw the demise of that industry.  But I'd argue that the decline of manufacturing and mining was mostly caused by government policy and global economic factors that we just can not isolate ourselves from.  I get protest votes and dissatisfaction with politicians, but I just feel people are protesting against the wrong targets with the EU if they are thinking that coming out will make any difference to the structure of our economy. As coming out will give even more power to the Eton Rifles or Comrade Corbyn. I'd be a little less worried if I thought we had a good bunch of politicians, especially ministers, who are mostly in it for the good of the country.

Taking it to a silly extreme it's like saying Cliff Richard has had a top ten hit in each of the last 5 decades, during which we have lost our manufacturing industry and seen the increase of zero hours contracts and increased minimum wage employment.  So let's ban Cliff from releasing singles as that will sort it out.
		
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I 100% agree with the last sentence


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 6, 2018)

Slab said:



			Is anyone aware of a rational response as to why this isn't practicable?
		
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It's full of sweeping statements like '_*A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards.* _ So we accept all EU product standards from now on without having any say in developing them, we just take what they say? 

Also we have  _'*no â€˜divorce billâ€™ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels *_and he goes on to suggest that possibly *itâ€™s the EU that should be paying Britain ' . * I'd argue a comment from not the sharpest tool in the box if he then expects us and the EU to have a mutually beneficial trade agreement post Brexit. That's if we want to trade with the EU easily, may be we can switch all our EU trade to Australia.....

Also he states that  *Britainâ€™s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe.* which conveniently forgets the fact that we do already trade with other countries as well as Europe whilst we are in the EU. 

We have a worrying lack of understanding of the Irish border issue  '*Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders'* with him yet again giving it the magic unicorn technology solution to sort it out.

And we finally have the classic from the hard brexit playbook *Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios when talking about a hard Brexit*.  So we are back to *'*ignore literally every forecast about the impact of a hard brexit' as it's all a conspiracy.

So IMHO big on emotion to stir national pride against the bogeyman of the EU, low on an practical ideas that would work in the real politic.  Not sure where I've seen that before.....


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Remain amazed there are folk that still believe the last forty or so years have been good to regular working folk.
		
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And you are blaming ALL of that on bring in the EU?!

I'm inclined to blieve that exiting from the EU, on whatever terms, is likely to be bad for 'regular working folk'! At least in the short to medium term!

Remember Brexit is NOT about advantages for 'regular working folk'. It's about independence and control! 

It's (at least it seems to me that it was initially) much more about the personal egos of certain politicians than actual 'regular working folk'!


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			May is being forced to publish the legal advice today.
This just shows we canâ€™t trust MPs to tell us the truth.
Another referendum would not settle this as we know a lot more now but they still wonâ€™t tell us all the facts.
People voted to leave because big business left them behind.
Globalisation just wasnâ€™t helping more than 52% of the population.
Massive companies avoiding taxes ,the rich looking after themselves.
Immigration impacted on low wages.
But all MPs are bothered about is business the very thing the people voted against.
If they screw this up and it looks like they are going to god knows what will happen.
But just staying in the EU is NOT the answer.

Cameron is responsible with the EU ,when he asked them for some concessions all they gave him was a kick up the backside that was the start of all this.
So the EU have themselves to blame as well.
		
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Almost of the above is simply emotive rubbish (imo of course!)!


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## Slime (Dec 6, 2018)

Slab said:



			Is anyone aware of a rational response as to why this isn't practicable?
		
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No, because I don't think there is one.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seems to be quite a lot of support for revoking Art 50  in the UK.
The alternative is of course for Scotland and NI to remain in the EU and the [re-jigged] UK.
Amazing [not] that England and Wales have finally come round to the conclusion that there was always a problem with Brexit and NI.
		
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Er...

A better (actually 'the idea'l imo) 'deal' would be for the whole of UK to remain in the Customs Union. Or the Single Market but without the 'Freedom of Movement of People' clause of the 'Four Freedoms'!


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's full of sweeping statements like '_*A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards.* _ So we accept all EU product standards from now on without having any say in developing them, we just take what they say? 

Also we have  _'*no â€˜divorce billâ€™ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels *_and he goes on to suggest that possibly *itâ€™s the EU that should be paying Britain ' . * I'd argue a comment from not the sharpest tool in the box if he then expects us and the EU to have a mutually beneficial trade agreement post Brexit. That's if we want to trade with the EU easily, may be we can switch all our EU trade to Australia.....

Also he states that  *Britainâ€™s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe.* which conveniently forgets the fact that we do already trade with other countries as well as Europe whilst we are in the EU. 

We have a worrying lack of understanding of the Irish border issue  '*Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders'* with him yet again giving it the magic unicorn technology solution to sort it out.

And we finally have the classic from the hard brexit playbook *Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios when talking about a hard Brexit*.  So we are back to *'*ignore literally every forecast about the impact of a hard brexit' as it's all a conspiracy.

So IMHO big on emotion to stir national pride against the bogeyman of the EU, low on an practical ideas that would work in the real politic.  Not where I've seen that somewhere before.....
		
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Yeah but might he still have a point?

I would never have voted leave anyway (given the chance) but now that its done I get the feeling every politician is using the process for personal and political gain rather than getting on with the job

i.e Are there many cases where the the broad EU product standards would've been damaging to UK consumers, in general they're a pretty civilised group of countries with a chunk of them having similar standards of society to the UK so if its good enough for the french or germans its good enough for a brit surely! 
And if such harmful products were to be imported (i.e more dangerous than the many harmful products already imported to the UK from other parts of the world) then folks just wouldn't buy them (which weirdly might then generate a 'Buy British' culture) 

So while it is _complex _does it really follow it has to be as _complicated _as this? Really, there's no workable options to simplify any of it. I mean its not like we need to provide a blueprint for other countries to follow, we just need to extract the UK


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## MegaSteve (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			And you are blaming ALL of that on bring in the EU?!


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Yea.... Why not?!  We hand over millions of our hard earnt to the charlatans that pollute Brussels with no visible benefit to our economy... And, like all box ticking desk jockeys they strut around  full of their own self importance.... And, worse of all they don't believe they are answerable to anyone... So, red card it is...


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## Sweep (Dec 6, 2018)

Surprise! Surprise!
The ECJ will deliver its ruling ( did anyone even ask for a ruling?) on whether the UK can unilaterally withdraw A50 on Monday. Thatâ€™s the day before parliament votes on the Withdrawal Agreement.
Who would have guessed? What a coincidence!
That is how daft they think we are.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

Slab said:



			Is anyone aware of a rational response as to why this isn't practicable?
		
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It seems practicable. But whether it's 'Best for Britain' is a different matter!

It's merely another opinion - from an 'extremely gaffe-prone' sacked Aussie PM. I'm sure 'the other side' could roll out equally as many opinions from equivalent folk.


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## User62651 (Dec 6, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Surprise! Surprise!
The ECJ will deliver its ruling ( did anyone even ask for a ruling?) on whether the UK can unilaterally withdraw A50 on Monday. Thatâ€™s the day before parliament votes on the Withdrawal Agreement.
Who would have guessed? What a coincidence!
That is how daft they think we are.
		
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This mess is all of our own Govt's making. Cake and eat proved delusional and now we've been found out. But blame the big bad EU.


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## Slab (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			It seems practicable. But whether it's 'Best for Britain' is a different matter!

It's merely another opinion - from an 'extremely gaffe-prone' sacked Aussie PM. I'm sure 'the other side' could roll out equally as many opinions from equivalent folk.
		
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_'Best for Britain'?_ I hardly think many of the voters had that endgame in mind when casting their vote, as usual it would have been _whats best for me me me_. So we don't really need to consider that as much as you'd first think 

Not really aware of the fellas history. Just for kicks, where do you think you'd rank him alongside some of our esteemed examples of PM's in the last 20-30 years?


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## bobmac (Dec 6, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



Yea.... Why not?!  We hand over millions of our hard earnt to the charlatans that pollute Brussels with no visible benefit to our economy... And, like all box ticking desk jockeys they strut around  full of their own self importance.... And, worse of all *they don't believe they are answerable to anyone*... So, red card it is...

Click to expand...

751 MEPs
E154,800 each plus free first class travel to work and E313 per day expenses while they are at work.
That includes almost E53,000 for office costs which remain secret

*''An EU court has rejected calls for greater transparency about MEPsâ€™ expenses, as it upheld a decision that politicians are not required to reveal how they spend public money intended for their offices.'' *
No surprise there then

249 MEPs  don't have offices but still claim for them

And who pays for all this?


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Almost of the above is simply emotive rubbish (imo of course!)!
		
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Your entitled to your opinion imo of course.
But a majority disagree with you imo of course.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

Slab said:



_'Best for Britain'?_ I hardly think many of the voters had that endgame in mind when casting their vote, as usual it would have been _whats best for me me me_. So we don't really need to consider that as much as you'd first think 
...
		
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Well there's almost always a degree of 'personal bias' in anyone's opinion!

But, supposedly, The PM, Cabinet and Parliament should be decidedly about what is 'Best for Britain'! 



Slab said:



			Not really aware of the fellas history. Just for kicks, where do you think you'd rank him alongside some of our esteemed examples of PM's in the last 20-30 years? 

Click to expand...

Cannot really compare him and been too far away from that neck of the woods to really comment. Rhodes Scholar, so certainly intelligent enough but here's a sentence from Wiki about his demise.... 'According to _The Economist_, his demise was a result of poor opinion polling, policy U-turns and gaffes and mean-spirited politics'.

Oh and my (Free Kirk) Grandmother would almost certainly have hated him!


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Surprise! Surprise!
The ECJ will deliver its ruling *( did anyone even ask for a ruling?)* on whether the UK can unilaterally withdraw A50 on Monday. Thatâ€™s the day before parliament votes on the Withdrawal Agreement.
Who would have guessed? What a coincidence!
That is how daft they think we are.
		
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Re the bold bit!
Er, Yes! 'A group of Scottish Politicians'! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428579


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Re the bold bit!
Er, Yes! 'A group of Scottish Politicians'! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428579

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Not the UK then !
Just some people who want independence how ironic!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 6, 2018)

Slab said:



			Yeah but might he still have a point?

I would never have voted leave anyway (given the chance) but now that its done I* get the feeling every politician is using the process for personal and political gain rather than getting on with the job*

i.e Are there many cases where the the broad EU product standards would've been damaging to UK consumers, in general they're a pretty civilised group of countries with a chunk of them having similar standards of society to the UK so if its good enough for the french or germans its good enough for a brit surely!
And if such harmful products were to be imported (i.e more dangerous than the many harmful products already imported to the UK from other parts of the world) then folks just wouldn't buy them (which weirdly might then generate a 'Buy British' culture)

So while it is _complex _does it really follow it has to be as _complicated _as this? Really, there's no workable options to simplify any of it. I mean its not like we need to provide a blueprint for other countries to follow, we just need to extract the UK
		
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I agree most politicians are using this to personal and political gain.  That is the breed of politician we get now. Also agree that EU standards are likely to be sound.  So I'd ask why we want to potentially opt out of them, or if we are adopting them then surely we'd want a say in devising them.  As for people not buying harmful products then in theory yes, but in practice people will generally buy the cheapest as that is the kind of culture we now live in, a cheap throw away culture.  That won't change, so without checks and balances on that companies will exploit that.

As for being complicated then you could argue that our economy, regulatory standards and part of our political system has been entwined with the EU for 40 off years now. So exiting all that is easy if all you are doing is making emotive statements of intent, but I think was always going to be horrendously complex when it came to the practical details if you want an ordered exit.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 6, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not the UK then !
Just some people who want independence how ironic!
		
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Part of the UK who are entitled to have an opinion.  Unless we think Brexit is just really Engexit.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Surprise! Surprise!
The ECJ will deliver its ruling ( did anyone even ask for a ruling?) on whether the UK can unilaterally withdraw A50 on Monday. Thatâ€™s the day before parliament votes on the Withdrawal Agreement.
Who would have guessed? What a coincidence!
That is how daft they think we are.
		
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Seemingly quite a lot were daft enough to believe the figures and immigrant images on the side of  UKIP buses.
So quite a lot would be the answer to your question.


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## User62651 (Dec 6, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not the UK then !
Just some people who want independence how ironic!
		
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It was cross party so from unionists and nationalists. And welcomed by around half the UK population who at least want all options to be considered, not just Mays deal v No Deal as the PM put it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not the UK then !
Just some people who want independence how ironic!
		
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Aye...on the same journey as Leavers.

BTW The Welsh, NI and Scots Parliaments/Assemblies are all rejecting May's dodgy deal.
In Scotland it was all political parties except the Tories, whose Westminster MP's will ironically vote against it. How screwed up are they.


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## Sweep (Dec 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seemingly quite a lot were daft enough to believe the figures and immigrant images on the side of  UKIP buses.
So quite a lot would be the answer to your question.
		
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I understand there are people opposed to Brexit. You would have to be living on Mars not to be aware. Quite what that has to do with the timing of the ECJ ruling I am not sure.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Part of the UK who are entitled to have an opinion.  Unless we think Brexit is just really Engexit.
		
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But they have quite openly said once they get independence they want to join the EU.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seemingly quite a lot were daft enough to believe the figures and immigrant images on the side of  UKIP buses.
So quite a lot would be the answer to your question.
		
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The immigrant pictures were on government billboards on trailers as I remember.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 6, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Part of the UK who are entitled to have an opinion.  Unless we think Brexit is just really Engexit.
		
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Why was it called Brexit and not UKexit which would be more accurate?


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## Sweep (Dec 6, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			This mess is all of our own Govt's making. Cake and eat proved delusional and now we've been found out. But blame the big bad EU. 

Click to expand...

Why is it the governments fault that the ECJ is ruling on whether the UK can unilaterally withdraw A50?
Why is it the governments fault that the ECJ is trying to influence parliaments decision by the timing of their ruling?
Why is the governments fault that the EU has to make a ruling at all? Shouldnâ€™t this have been considered when A50 was written?
Sounds to me itâ€™s more about you blaming the big, bad UK.


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## Sweep (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Re the bold bit!
Er, Yes! 'A group of Scottish Politicians'! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428579

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Google is your friend.
So, just for clarity. A group of Scottish politicians who are trying to thwart Brexit. So the fact that they are Scottish is irrelevant in this regard.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye...on the same journey as Leavers.

BTW The Welsh, NI and Scots Parliaments/Assemblies are all rejecting May's dodgy deal.
In Scotland it was all political parties except the Tories, whose Westminster MP's will ironically vote against it. How screwed up are they.
		
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NI havnt got a parliament have they they canâ€™t even agree with themselves never mind anyone else.
I do agree itâ€™s all very complicated 
But itâ€™s showing our leaders for what they are , self important incompetents.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Thanks for the info. Google is your friend.
So, just for clarity. A group of Scottish politicians who are trying to thwart Brexit. So the fact that they are Scottish is irrelevant in this regard.
		
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Shame you didn't use it before posting!

How are you going to repay my time you wasted! Â£5 to H4H would be appropriate!


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## Sweep (Dec 6, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also agree that EU standards are likely to be sound.  So I'd ask why we want to potentially opt out of them, or if we are adopting them then surely we'd want a say in devising them.
		
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There are a huge number of mutual recognition agreements on standards between lots of countries, particularly between the EU and US. This gives any nation or union the option of joining in or negotiating a mutual standard. If the standard is high enough there is no need to be involved in devising it. No need to reinvent the wheel. If itâ€™s not high enough you get involved and negotiate a mutual standard. The default position is that the standard is high to overcome objections and remove barriers to mutual recognition. Sometimes in fact the standards can be too high which can be a barrier to trade. Nevertheless, this is the least of our issues.


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## Sweep (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Shame you didn't use it before posting!

How are you going to repay my time you wasted! Â£5 to H4H would be appropriate!
		
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I would agree, but as you have wasted so much of my time in the past I suggest we call it quits. ðŸ˜€


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## User62651 (Dec 6, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			But they have quite openly said once they get independence they want to join the EU.
		
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What the SNP say they want and what all Scotland wants are separate issues. EU membership and independence are not directly linked. Some people want both, some want one only and some want neither.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			...Also agree that EU standards are likely to be sound.  So I'd ask why we want to potentially opt out of them, or if we are adopting them then surely we'd want a say in devising them. ...
		
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We don't want to opt out of them! That's a consequence of Brexit. And I'd question why we would REALLY need a say in adopting them. Presumably, there are 'International' standards that match or exceed EU ones. If not, then BSI standards COULD be made to cover most products.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 6, 2018)

Sat at stanstead waiting to go to Rome for the weekend and ave thought this for a while. Does Theresa May and her Remain cronies actually want to leave the EU. I mean i know she voted remain but is she actually doung the best job possible for the UK. Me finks not. I cannot quite put me finger on it. But there is a strong smell of the brown smelly stuff with this Brexit situation.


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## User62651 (Dec 6, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Sat at stanstead waiting to go to Rome for the weekend and ave thought this for a while. Does Theresa May and her Remain cronies actually want to leave the EU. I mean i know she voted remain but is she actually doung the best job possible for the UK. Me finks not. I cannot quite put me finger on it. But there is a strong smell of the brown smelly stuff with this Brexit situation.
		
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Dont think she's got any cronies to be fair, Rudd apart. Most of the cabiinet are using her as the fall guy. Not a fan of hers politically but begrudgingly admire her stoicism and class in all this if not her pig-headedness (no Cameron jokes pls). Impossible job presently as parliament has to agree what she wants and that's not proving do-able just now.
Can she pull this vote on Tuesday around? Looking no but stranger things have happended/


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

Finally, after reading the last few pages, I'm beginning to understand why some people voted the way they did. Such a shame that it's not going to get them what they appear to want. Still, life's a rollercoaster eh?


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## HughJars (Dec 6, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			The immigrant pictures were on government billboards on trailers as I remember.
		
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Nope, UKIP trailer with Nige in front of it


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Nope, UKIP trailer with Nige in front of it
		
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What, poor old Nige who has now been forced to quit UKIP as it's too Right Wing?


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## MegaSteve (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Finally, after reading the last few pages, I'm beginning to understand why some people voted the way they did. Such a shame that it's not going to get them what they appear to want. Still, life's a rollercoaster eh?
		
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Don't believe I've ever had a government or bureaucracy deliver what I want... Being disappointed will not be a new experience...


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Nope, UKIP trailer with Nige in front of it
		
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Are you sure I remember seeing trailers driving around .
Are you here illegally please phone this number !
Am pretty sure it was a home office thing.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			What the SNP say they want and what all Scotland wants are separate issues. EU membership and independence are not directly linked. Some people want both, some want one only and some want neither.[/QUOT



Tashyboy said:



			Sat at stanstead waiting to go to Rome for the weekend and ave thought this for a while. Does Theresa May and her Remain cronies actually want to leave the EU. I mean i know she voted remain but is she actually doung the best job possible for the UK. Me finks not. I cannot quite put me finger on it. But there is a strong smell of the brown smelly stuff with this Brexit situation.[/QUOTE
		
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Click to expand...


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

Been smelly for a while


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## drdel (Dec 6, 2018)

bobmac said:



			751 MEPs
E154,800 each plus free first class travel to work and E313 per day expenses while they are at work.
That includes almost E53,000 for office costs which remain secret

*''An EU court has rejected calls for greater transparency about MEPsâ€™ expenses, as it upheld a decision that politicians are not required to reveal how they spend public money intended for their offices.'' *
No surprise there then

249 MEPs  don't have offices but still claim for them

And who pays for all this?
		
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Exactly and, they certainly used to simply self certify any expenses, and as a Golfer you'd know that everyone will abide (and know) the 'rules')!!

No one checks whether any particular trip, to and from Brussels, was actually made or whether the office was used - and that applies for 'expert' advisors not just the MEP's. The whole game of cards is corrupt and an accountancy/ audit shambles - each new MEP/expert is advised/afraid to rock the boat and so it perpetuates. However they are quick to knock the Greeks (and others) for avoiding paying tax


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Don't believe I've ever had a government or bureaucracy deliver what I want... Being disappointed will not be a new experience...
		
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If I could be so bold as to put forward a theory..

It's dawned on me that a sizable percentage of the Leave vote have done so because of their utter disillusionment with the Political Classes. They were probably quite unhappy before the Expenses Scandal, but are utterly furious now that nothing appears to have happened. the Banking Scandal has also added petrol to the flames. 

They have now taken the first available opportunity to reject a Political Body (A General Election would not provide this outlet as they would have to vote for another Party anyway). They have vented their ire at an Organisation (The EU) that is clearly riddled with the same issues as more local Government. Who can blame them for that?

However, what if that particular troubled organisation is actually one that holds the other more local troubled organisation in check? What if what they have actually done is to place more power in the hands of those who caused most of the problems in the first place. What if, by virtue of the Referendum, we have actually made things much much worse? We have put power into the hands of the much vaunted Global Elite (Corporations). Now wouldn't that be a kick in the nuts?

Anyway, just my musings whilst I've had my head stuck in spreadsheets for the last 3 days!!!!!!!!


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

drdel said:



			Exactly and, they certainly used to simply self certify any expenses, and as a Golfer you'd know that everyone will abide (and know) the 'rules')!!

No one checks whether any particular trip, to and from Brussels, was actually made or whether the office was used - and that applies for 'expert' advisors not just the MEP's. The whole game of cards is corrupt and an accountancy/ audit shambles - each new MEP/expert is advised/afraid to rock the boat and so it perpetuates. However they are quick to knock the Greeks (and others) for avoiding paying tax
		
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Have they had their books signed off yet ,itâ€™s only been forty years.
Gravy train


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			If I could be so bold as to put forward a theory..

It's dawned on me that a sizable percentage of the Leave vote have done so because of their utter disillusionment with the Political Classes. They were probably quite unhappy before the Expenses Scandal, but are utterly furious now that nothing appears to have happened. the Banking Scandal has also added petrol to the flames. 

They have now taken the first available opportunity to reject a Political Body (A General Election would not provide this outlet as they would have to vote for another Party anyway). They have vented their ire at an Organisation (The EU) that is clearly riddled with the same issues as more local Government. Who can blame them for that?

However, what if that particular troubled organisation is actually one that holds the other more local troubled organisation in check? What if what they have actually done is to place more power in the hands of those who caused most of the problems in the first place. What if, by virtue of the Referendum, we have actually made things much much worse? We have put power into the hands of the much vaunted Global Elite (Corporations). Now wouldn't that be a kick in the nuts?

Anyway, just my musings whilst I've had my head stuck in spreadsheets for the last 3 days!!!!!!!!
		
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Thereâ€™s a lot of â€œwhat ifsâ€ in there.
This is more or less what I have been saying .
Itâ€™s the first time people have had a say for forty years , and others are telling them they didnâ€™t understand the question.

We give them loads of cash they give us some back then erect a plaque saying. â€œ built with EU fundingâ€
The rest goes on moving parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg for one day.

The contempt they have for us is staggering.
And it needs to stop but wonâ€™t.
The only way we can stop paying them is to leave.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thereâ€™s a lot of â€œwhat ifsâ€ in there.
		
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There are, yes. However, as I said. It's only a theory of mine.. I need the Leave Camp to confirm it.

FWIW, I understand that motivation much better than some of the others that have been presented on here. My only worry is that we've kicked the arses of the wrong people.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			There are, yes. However, as I said. It's only a theory of mine.. I need the Leave Camp to confirm it.

FWIW, I understand that motivation much better than some of the others that have been presented on here. My only worry is that we've kicked the arses of the wrong people.
		
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Thatâ€™s a possibility but when the people speak itâ€™s the governments job to do it.

I have been questioned on here about the demise of the high st and what thatâ€™s got to do with the EU.
But itâ€™s all down to your personal perception , if all your parks , cinemas, youth clubs , libraryâ€™s are closing it has a massive impact on how you think.
Personal circumstances do sway your thinking .
They look at the excesses in the EU and say my taxes are paying for that and itâ€™s got to stop.

But Iâ€™ve said many times Nobody knows the truth we are all mushrooms!


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thatâ€™s a possibility but when the people speak itâ€™s the governments job to do it.

I have been questioned on here about the demise of the high st and what thatâ€™s got to do with the EU.
But itâ€™s all down to your personal perception , if all your parks , cinemas, youth clubs , libraryâ€™s are closing it has a massive impact on how you think.
Personal circumstances do sway your thinking .
They look at the excesses in the EU and say my taxes are paying for that and itâ€™s got to stop.

But Iâ€™ve said many times Nobody knows the truth we are all mushrooms!
		
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 I can't argue with your view of the problems. I do disagree with your opinion on who is to blame. When I look at what has happened over the last 10 years especially, there's only one group of people that I would lay the blame at the feet of, and they don't speak with a funny accent (unless you class Eton as a funny accent)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2018)

David Lammy speaking with passion, realism and clarity about the EU and leaving it.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...h-to-the-house-of-commons-on-brexit-1-5806571


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I can't argue with your view of the problems. I do disagree with your opinion on who is to blame. When I look at what has happened over the last 10 years especially, there's only one group of people that I would lay the blame at the feet of, and they don't speak with a funny accent (unless you class Eton as a funny accent)
		
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Does that not suggest you blame the Tories, and only the Tories. The partnership of Blair and Brown has a lot to answer too, especially in their latter years.


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			David Lammy speaking with passion, realism and clarity about the EU and leaving it.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...h-to-the-house-of-commons-on-brexit-1-5806571

Click to expand...

Itâ€™s rubbish. Iâ€™ve not heard a single person talk of another empire. Itâ€™s a 6th formerâ€™s end of year speech at best.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			David Lammy speaking with passion, realism and clarity about the EU and leaving it.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...h-to-the-house-of-commons-on-brexit-1-5806571

Click to expand...

Half a dozen members on the Government sid and a dozen or so on the opposition side! Hardly a speech that had parliamentary impact! Unfotunately!


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thereâ€™s a lot of â€œwhat ifsâ€ in there.
This is more or less what I have been saying .
Itâ€™s the first time people have had a say for forty years , and others are telling them they didnâ€™t understand the question.

We give them loads of cash they give us some back then erect a plaque saying. â€œ built with EU fundingâ€
The rest goes on moving parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg for one day.

The contempt they have for us is staggering.
And it needs to stop but wonâ€™t.
The only way we can stop paying them is to leave.
		
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I'd suggest you visit your Doctor befor you do some real damage to yourself or others!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Are you sure I remember seeing trailers driving around .
Are you here illegally please phone this number !
Am pretty sure it was a home office thing.
		
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They were the posters that May authorised when she was Home Secretary
The separatist ones were from UKIP. 
Remember when they used a picture of Syrian refugees [not immigrants] and inferred they were queuing up to come to the UK.  Not forgetting the 51 million Turkish residents who would also be joining the queue. That really shook up the OAPs.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Does that not suggest you blame the Tories, and only the Tories. The partnership of Blair and Brown has a lot to answer too, especially in their latter years.
		
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I was more referring to the last 10 years, but I appreciate that it wasn't clear.

For the avoidance of doubt, I blame successive Governments for the complete failure to halt the ever growing gap between Rich and Poor. Our over-willingness to accept poor treatment by Global powers and our ever more desperate pursuit of economic growth via the growth of population and therefore debt has resulted in a paper thin economy that is heavily weighted towards making the Rich wealthier and the Poor subservient.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 6, 2018)

I dont intend to get embroiled in the arguement, but what I do know is that personally we are down 50% of our work since the referendum. Forget small to medium pain, if things carry on the way they have been we shall be shut and I shall be having to try and find other employment.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I can't argue with your view of the problems. I do disagree with your opinion on who is to blame. When I look at what has happened over the last 10 years especially, there's only one group of people that I would lay the blame at the feet of, and they don't speak with a funny accent (unless you class Eton as a funny accent)
		
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I never really said itâ€™s the EU fault as such.
But I do think itâ€™s a combination of them plus our own successive governments.
But I think when we never went in the Euro that was the start of us not really integrating fully.
But as has been said the gap between rich and poor is greatest here.
But I would counter a lot of the rich ones are from other countries, especially in London.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 6, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I dont intend to get embroiled in the arguement, but what I do know is that personally we are down 50% of our work since the referendum. Forget small to medium pain, if things carry on the way they have been we shall be shut and I shall be having to try and find other employment.
		
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What line of work are you in?


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I'd suggest you visit your Doctor befor you do some real damage to yourself or others!
		
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Itâ€™s to late for that!
But if you care to explain what damage I can to others I will bear it in mind.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They were the posters that May authorised when she was Home Secretary
The separatist ones were from UKIP. 
Remember when they used a picture of Syrian refugees [not immigrants] and inferred they were queuing up to come to the UK.  Not forgetting the 51 million Turkish residents who would also be joining the queue. That really shook up the OAPs.
		
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The one I answered clearly said immigrants not refugees!


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 6, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			What line of work are you in?
		
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Domestic appliance repairs, mainly in managed properties in London.
Been in the trade for 36 yrs, with 20 up town with the managed stuff.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 6, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Domestic appliance repairs, mainly in managed properties in London.
Been in the trade for 36 yrs, with 20 up town with the managed stuff.
		
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Not meant to be flippant but.
Whatâ€™s the referendum got to do with loss of work?
If your machine breaks you have to fix it surley.
Or are these properties becoming empty.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			and our ever more desperate pursuit of economic growth via the growth of population .
		
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So true.


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## Dando (Dec 6, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			David Lammy speaking with passion, realism and clarity about the EU and leaving it.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...h-to-the-house-of-commons-on-brexit-1-5806571[/QUOTE

 The guy is a moron
		
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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 6, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not meant to be flippant but.
Whatâ€™s the referendum got to do with loss of work?
If your machine breaks you have to fix it surley.
Or are these properties becoming empty.
		
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The people renting the properties I deal with are mainly foriegn nationals, many in the finance world, and their companies are relocating them to other European cities, back home or to other countries outside the EU.
As a result the properties stand empty and therefore nothing breaks down.
Of course the Salisbury poisonings didnt help because nearly all the Russions went back home straight away, and although they are returning now it hasn't improved it mouch.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2018)

I was sitting in the hospital waiting room waiting for my Mrs yesterday.
The only paper available to me was the Daily Record [Scotland's best selling newspaper which I would normally only touch wearing rubber gloves].I had to turn to page 9 before I spotted the word Brexit.
Brexit is not a big issue in Scotland.
Most residents seem content to see the Tory and Labour parties blow each other up and see what comes out in a couple of years time.
Both parties are now more or less dead meat in Scotland.
The Wings guy avoids Brexit for that reason but has just posted up this.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-great-british-bin-fire/#more-107817was

Pretty astute summary of where we are.
Viewers outwith Scotland might find it interesting


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			So true.
		
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It's almost as though we need a completely new economic model. Because Capitalism has a fatal flaw, growth can't be eternal when you have finite resources...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2018)

Remain MPs and Labour party politic players have been doing their best to disrupt the Governments negotiating position from the start and now they have the audacity to say the outcome is a bad deal.   You couldn't make it up.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			It's almost as though we need a completely new economic model. Because Capitalism has a fatal flaw, growth can't be eternal when you have finite resources...
		
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Maybe the answer is to reduce demand.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The people renting the properties I deal with are mainly foriegn nationals, many in the finance world, and their companies are relocating them to other European cities, back home or to other countries outside the EU.
As a result the properties stand empty and therefore nothing breaks down.
Of course the Salisbury poisonings didnt help because nearly all the Russions went back home straight away, and although they are returning now it hasn't improved it mouch.
		
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I thought there was a shortage of property available.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought there was a shortage of property available.
		
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Not in the Â£800 to Â£5k a week area.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Remain MPs and Labour party politic players have been doing their best to disrupt the Governments negotiating position from the start and now they have the audacity to say the outcome is a bad deal.   You couldn't make it up.
		
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That's the 'duty' of  HM's Oppositiom! The fact that they demonstrate their ineptitude..well...!


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## IainP (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			That's the 'duty' of  HM's Oppositiom! The fact thet thet they demonstrate their inneptude..well...!
		
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Had a few sherbets? ðŸ˜ðŸ™‚


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Not in the Â£800 to Â£5k a week area.
		
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Plenty of expensive rental properties in the Home Counties are being let - a large proportion to those in the Financial area - though that market might disappear suddenly!


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

IainP said:



			Had a few sherbets? ðŸ˜ðŸ™‚
		
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Slight Stut/Stuttter!   And trying to use the 2.0 reading glasses that I really need - but can't find !!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Plenty of expensive rental properties in the Home Counties are being let - a large proportion to those in the Financial area - though that market might disappear suddenly!
		
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Would the projected 30% drop in house prices in expensive areas not spike a rental surge.


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would the projected 30% drop in house prices in expensive areas not spike a rental surge.
		
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Who knows!

And why would you be interested?


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			It's almost as though we need a completely new economic model. Because Capitalism has a fatal flaw, growth can't be eternal when you have finite resources...
		
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Why does capitalism need growth? If the idea is to make Â£100 from a product with a 20% net profit for reinvestment and share dividends, why do you need to make more next year?


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## chrisd (Dec 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Why does capitalism need growth? If the idea is to make Â£100 from a product with a 20% net profit for reinvestment and share dividends, why do you need to make more next year?
		
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Add to that the alternative to capitalism isn't exactly a benefit to the average worker


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Why does capitalism need growth? If the idea is to make Â£100 from a product with a 20% net profit for reinvestment and share dividends, why do you need to make more next year?
		
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His point was regarding the use of increased population as a means to increase fiscal growth. It can never end well.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would the projected 30% drop in house prices in expensive areas not spike a rental surge.
		
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What do you think?


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe the answer is to reduce demand.
		
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Unless done on a global level then this would most likely lead to shrinkage of the Economy and a localised recession. 
I wouldn't overly worry though, Climate Change will bring about its own economic change on a Global scale. If you think immigration is bad now, just wait till the Sea Level rises and mass population migration starts ðŸ˜‚


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Add to that the alternative to capitalism isn't exactly a benefit to the average worker
		
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There are other alternatives. You don't need to use Project Fear ðŸ˜‰


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46476324


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## Foxholer (Dec 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Why does capitalism need growth? If the idea is to make Â£100 from a product with a 20% net profit for reinvestment and share dividends, why do you need to make more next year?
		
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chrisd said:



			Add to that the alternative to capitalism isn't exactly a benefit to the average worker
		
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Totally agree!

UK's approach definitely seems tobe a 'gentle' form of capitalism! Where Profit is Ok. but within bounds!


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Why does capitalism need growth? If the idea is to make Â£100 from a product with a 20% net profit for reinvestment and share dividends, why do you need to make more next year?
		
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Population growth requires Economic growth. However, once the Government outspends its incoming (deficit and debt), then population growth is required to offset the debt. A bit like a giant Ponzi scheme. 
Now then, if we follow Malthus' predictions then we would inevitably run up against the finite limits of our planet. However, if we follow Marx' approach, the onset of automation would result in mass unemployment and therefore no one would have the money to spend on the goods produced. Either way, Capitalism in its current form is doomed (eventually) to eat itself. 
The most likely possible solution is a period of global population shrinkage and the writing off of National debts. Capitalism could then be rebooted in a responsible way. Big corporations probably wouldn't like it though ðŸ˜‚

Note. Please forgive the overly concise nature of the post. I'm struggling to think whilst working from home....


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Totally agree!

UK's approach definitely seems tobe a 'gentle' form of capitalism! Where Profit is Ok. but within bounds!
		
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Is that a joke?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46476324

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Great news. I heard they had both offered to send a Kipper stand in.


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## woofers (Dec 6, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			........
Brexit is not a big issue in Scotland.
........
		
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Perhaps you could advise the Jimmie Crankie lookalike of that.


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Population growth requires Economic growth. However, once the Government outspends its incoming (deficit and debt), then population growth is required to offset the debt. A bit like a giant Ponzi scheme.
Now then, if we follow Malthus' predictions then we would inevitably run up against the finite limits of our planet. However, if we follow Marx' approach, the onset of automation would result in mass unemployment and therefore no one would have the money to spend on the goods produced. Either way, Capitalism in its current form is doomed (eventually) to eat itself.
The most likely possible solution is a period of global population shrinkage and the writing off of National debts. Capitalism could then be rebooted in a responsible way. Big corporations probably wouldn't like it though ðŸ˜‚

Note. Please forgive the overly concise nature of the post. I'm struggling to think whilst working from home....
		
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I don't doubt population growth needs economic growth but does that require a % profit growth? 10% 0f Â£100 = Â£10. 10% of Â£200 = Â£20. If there are only 100 shares requiring a 4% dividend, irrespective of population size, why would you need Â£20? Extra population will increase demand, which will require more investment, e.g. a bigger plant. The 10% 0f Â£200 will cover the increased cost. There's no need to chase a % profit growth. And profit growth has to be finite(capped) or there'll be inflation.

Does increased population become a vicious circle in terms of economics? More people require greater infrastructure spending, e.g. schools and hospitals. But if the people coming in are contributing Â£1bn but the cost of school and hospital places = Â£1.5bn... Mmm, not a discussion I want to pursue as this gets a little too close to a UKIP debate. Or does it? Is it just a fact that more people require more infrastructure but if their contribution is less than required, e.g. if a large percentage of them do low paid work...


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I don't doubt population growth needs economic growth but does that require a % profit growth? 10% 0f Â£100 = Â£10. 10% of Â£200 = Â£20. If there are only 100 shares requiring a 4% dividend, irrespective of population size, why would you need Â£20? Extra population will increase demand, which will require more investment, e.g. a bigger plant. The 10% 0f Â£200 will cover the increased cost. There's no need to chase a % profit growth. And profit growth has to be finite(capped) or there'll be inflation.

Does increased population become a vicious circle in terms of economics? More people require greater infrastructure spending, e.g. schools and hospitals. But if the people coming in are contributing Â£1bn but the cost of school and hospital places = Â£1.5bn... Mmm, not a discussion I want to pursue as this gets a little too close to a UKIP debate. Or does it? Is it just a fact that more people require more infrastructure but if their contribution is less than required, e.g. if a large percentage of them do low paid work...
		
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Globalisation has put paid to that situation. Profit growth is now the holy grail. This results in further automation, more low skilled work, more unemployment, higher welfare costs, massive redistribution of money from the poorest to the wealthiest, more government debt, more immigration required (to offset the low birth rate now that both parents have to work), etc. 

So, yes, it's a vicious circle ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2018)

And the larger population create greater and greater demand for ever scarcer resources  . It can never end up well.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			And the larger population create greater and greater demand for ever scarcer resources  . It can never end up well.
		
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It can't, but it's a cycle we're currently locked in and I don't see a way out of it without fairly cataclysmic economic results. 
We're in a race to the bottom and we're sucking in people from other countries to relatively strengthen us. If you think that things are bad now, just see what it's like in 20 years. It'll make your eyes water.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			It can't, but it's a cycle we're currently locked in and I don't see a way out of it without fairly cataclysmic economic results.
We're in a race to the bottom and we're sucking in people from other countries to relatively strengthen us. If you think that things are bad now, just see what it's like in 20 years. It'll make your eyes water.
		
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No easy fix.  Reducing immigration to levels that reduce population, discouraging large family size, higher taxation and better social care. The blip in the aging population will subside due to the current halt and subsequent fall in life expectancy. Start manufacturing more and purchase our own products.  It will all probably end up in tears but hey ho ita nearly Chrimbo.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			No easy fix.  Reducing immigration to levels that reduce population, discouraging large family size, higher taxation and better social care. The blip in the aging population will subside due to the current halt and subsequent fall in life expectancy. Start manufacturing more and purchase our own products.  It will all probably end up in tears but hey ho ita nearly Chrimbo.
		
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Unfortunately, almost every step you've listed above will see us crippled as an economy unless it's a Global movement. 

The point regarding Life Expectancy is startling on its own. When investigated deeper it shows that life expectancy is significantly reducing in poorer areas, but rising in wealthier ones. 

And, in order to be able to afford our own manufactured goods, we'd have to reduce wages by around 90%. Unfortunately, this would then mean that we still couldn't buy them as we'd all be saving every penny for our gruel. 

In short, either we all start to come together Globally or we're fecked. Thank God we're in an economic and political partnership with all our nearest neighbours................

Ooooops.............


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 6, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Who knows!

And why would you be interested?
		
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Supply and demand.....not being a housing expert I just wondered if a drop in house prices at the top end would create a bigger renting market. I suppose It mainly depends on salaries and employment


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## Mudball (Dec 6, 2018)

Just listening to the news .. arrrghh.. the cloak and dagger mating ritual at Westminister.. what a bloody charade.

My fiver still on the deal going thru.. all this is just posturing ..


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## Hobbit (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, almost every step you've listed above will see us crippled as an economy unless it's a Global movement.

The point regarding Life Expectancy is startling on its own. When investigated deeper it shows that life expectancy is significantly reducing in poorer areas, but rising in wealthier ones.

And, in order to be able to afford our own manufactured goods, we'd have to reduce wages by around 90%. Unfortunately, this would then mean that we still couldn't buy them as we'd all be saving every penny for our gruel.

In short, either we all start to come together Globally or we're fecked. Thank God we're in an economic and political partnership with all our nearest neighbours................

Ooooops.............
		
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There's an interesting debate to be had about life expectancy. For example, one of the reasons for the drop is the reduced number of centenarians because of world war 1. Another reason is the flu in both 2016 and 2017 was worse than usual, and the winters harder.

Equally, there are those that said austerity is a reason not to be ignored. But if that is the case, why did expectancy continue to rise from 2008, that start of the crash, right the way through to 2016, 8 years later? Business conditions, closures and redundancies started climbing in Aug 2008 but were back to pre-Aug 2008 levels by Oct 2009. Employment is at its best number in over 40 years. Homelessness has risen year on year for the last 8 years, and by significant numbers too...

One thing's for sure, a different government is required. Whether thats Conservative or other I don't care. But a change is needed.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, almost every step you've listed above will see us crippled as an economy unless it's a Global movement.

The point regarding Life Expectancy is startling on its own. When investigated deeper it shows that life expectancy is significantly reducing in poorer areas, but rising in wealthier ones.

And, in order to be able to afford our own manufactured goods, we'd have to reduce wages by around 90%. Unfortunately, this would then mean that we still couldn't buy them as we'd all be saving every penny for our gruel.

In short, either we all start to come together Globally or we're fecked. Thank God we're in an economic and political partnership with all our nearest neighbours................

Ooooops.............
		
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The life expectancy situation is only starting its downward trend. , obesity, diabetes, heart and liver desease are the way forward and there are more in the proletariat than the Bullington Club.

I purchased a very nice pint of Doombar at Â£2.50 in a local hostilary today, a very good British steak from  Lidl  that didnt max out the bank card all while wearing my UK made Burbry coat and Clarks shoes.  If it all loaded my wallet by 90% I didn't notice.


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## bluewolf (Dec 6, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The life expectancy situation is only starting its downward trend. , obesity, diabetes, heart and liver desease are the way forward and there are more in the proletariat than the Bullington Club.

I purchased a very nice pint of Doombar at Â£2.50 in a local hostilary today, a very good British steak from  Lidl  that didnt max out the bank card all while wearing my UK made Burbry coat and Clarks shoes.  If it all loaded my wallet by 90% I didn't notice.
		
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Ok. 
Doombar is not British. It's brewed in Burton on Trent and owned by Molsen Coors. 
Lidl is German and the steak is an example of goods that can't be made that much cheaper due to the factory farming methods and automation of the butchering process. 
Burberry is a luxury goods seller and is not affordable to the majority of the population. 
Clarkes shoes have been made in economic zones in China, India, Brazil and Vietnam for the last 12 years. They've only just opened a factory in Britain making desert boots this year. So if your shoes are not desert boots or are more than 6 months old then they're about as British as an iPhone. 

Everything you've written illustrates my point beautifully ðŸ‘


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## Slab (Dec 7, 2018)

*The House of Commons:*

*SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS:* Right. Now, uh, item four: attainment of Britainâ€™s exit from the EU within the next two years. Uh, Theresa, you've been doing some work on this.

*THERESA MAY:* Yeah. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, quite frankly, siblings, I think two years is optimistic, unless we can smash the EU empire within the next 5 days.

*Mr SPEAKER:* 5 days?

*MAY:* Yeah, 5 days. And, let's face it. As empires go, this is the big one, so we've got to get up off our arses and stop just talking about it!

*MPâ€™s:* Hear! Hear!

*JEREMY CORBYN:* I agree. Its action that counts, not words, and we need action now.

*MPâ€™s:* Hear! Hear!

*Mr SPEAKER:* You're right. We could sit around here all day talking, passing resolutions, making clever speeches. It's not going to shift one EU Resolution!

*MAY:* So, let's just stop gabbing on about it. It's completely pointless and it's getting us nowhere!

*MPâ€™s:* Right!

*CORBYN:* I agree. This is a complete waste of time.

_Bam door opens_

*BORIS JOHNSON:* They've taken Nigel Farage!!

*Mr SPEAKER:* What?

*MPâ€™s:* What?

*BORIS:* They've dragged him off! They're going to make him President of the EU!

*Mr SPEAKER:* Right! This calls for immediate discussion!

*DAVID DAVIS:* Yeah.

*BORIS:* What?!

*JACOB REES-MOGG:* Immediate.

*DAVID DAVIS:* Right.

*PHILIP HAMMOND:* New motion?

*Mr SPEAKER:* Completely new motion, eh, that, ah-- that there be, ah, immediate action--

*MAY:* Ah, once the vote has been taken.

*Mr SPEAKER:* Well, obviously once the vote's been taken Theresa. You can't act another resolution till you've voted on it...

*BORIS:* Mr Speaker, for God's sake, let's go now!

*Mr SPEAKER:* Yeah. Yeah.

*BORIS:* Please!

*Mr SPEAKER:* Right. Right.

*THERESA MAY:* Fine.

*Mr SPEAKER:* In the-- in the light of fresh information from, ahh, sibling Boris--

*HAMMOND *_(writing):_ Ah, not so fast, Mr Speaker.

*BORIS:* Mr Speaker, for God's sake, it's perfectly simple. All you've got to do is to go out of that door now, and try to stop the EU electing him! It's happening, Mr Speaker! Something's actually happening, Can't you understand?! Ohhh!

_Exits with door slam_

*Mr SPEAKER:* Hm. Hm.

*THERESA MAY:* Oh, dear.

*Mr SPEAKER:* Hello. Another little ego trip for the feminists.

*JACOB REES-MOGG:* What?

*THERESA MAY:* _whistling_

*Mr SPEAKER:* Oh, sorry, Jacob. Ahh, oh, read that back, would you Hammond?


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## HughJars (Dec 7, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Are you sure I remember seeing trailers driving around .
Are you here illegally please phone this number !
Am pretty sure it was a home office thing.
		
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I'm sure you're well aware, but here you go

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ning-resumes-as-jeremy-corbyn-and-michael-g2/


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2018)

HughJars said:



			I'm sure you're well aware, but here you go

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ning-resumes-as-jeremy-corbyn-and-michael-g2/

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Both you and clubchamp are right. 

The Home Office had a campaign in 2013 that had phone numbers on the side of vans as well as go home now or risk arrest. It got pulled following an uproar.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Ok.
Doombar is not British. It's brewed in Burton on Trent and owned by Molsen Coors.
Lidl is German and the steak is an example of goods that can't be made that much cheaper due to the factory farming methods and automation of the butchering process.
Burberry is a luxury goods seller and is not affordable to the majority of the population.
Clarkes shoes have been made in economic zones in China, India, Brazil and Vietnam for the last 12 years. They've only just opened a factory in Britain making desert boots this year. So if your shoes are not desert boots or are more than 6 months old then they're about as British as an iPhone.

Everything you've written illustrates my point beautifully ðŸ‘
		
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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			There's an interesting debate to be had about life expectancy. For example, one of the reasons for the drop is the reduced number of centenarians because of world war 1. Another reason is the flu in both 2016 and 2017 was worse than usual, and the winters harder.

Equally, there are those that said austerity is a reason not to be ignored. But if that is the case, why did expectancy continue to rise from 2008, that start of the crash, right the way through to 2016, 8 years later? Business conditions, closures and redundancies started climbing in Aug 2008 but were back to pre-Aug 2008 levels by Oct 2009. Employment is at its best number in over 40 years. Homelessness has risen year on year for the last 8 years, and by significant numbers too...

One thing's for sure, a different government is required. Whether thats Conservative or other I don't care. But a change is needed.
		
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Is the life expectancy drop not down to much higher levels of obesity and diabetes in the younger OAP's.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is the life expectancy drop not down to much higher levels of obesity and diabetes in the younger OAP's.
		
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Shorter life expectancy must be a bonus for any government of any colour. In an ideal world people would work their whole lives and then drop dead the day after they retire - ideal for the government, not so much for the person that has dropped dead. State pensions are a massive part of the benefits system and getting rid of them, by everyone dying the day after they are due to receive them, would mean more money for everything else. 

Not that I agree with the state pension being called a "benefit" as for the vast majority they have worked their whole lives and paid in to the system so they are simply getting the promised return on their investment.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2018)

Oh christ, now I'm agreeing with Michael Heseltine. This Brexit thing really is confusing....  



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1070359175237156864


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Ok.

Clarkes shoes have been made in economic zones in China, India, Brazil and Vietnam for the last 12 years.
		
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My BiL has lived over in China for over 10yrs now. One of the things that always amuses him is the sight of the Chinese boarding the plane in the UK back to China, loaded with boxes of Clarkes shoes. They know they are made over in China but the Chinese don't trust what they see in their shops as they believe everything to be fake, with good reason. The shoes get made in China, are shipped to the UK to be bought by Chinese people to take back to China. Madness.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2018)

Good thread showing that Corbyn is in fantasy unicorn land as well.  https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1070859040660443136.html 

Particularly liked the tweet  '_What Labour is doing here is precisely what the Tory Govt has done throughout this process with the present disastrous results. They are ignoring the realities of what is possible, and what EU27's views and red lines are to sell Unicorns made of unobtainium'_


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## MegaSteve (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Ok.
Doombar is not British. It's brewed in Burton on Trent and owned by Molsen Coors.
		
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Properly puzzled... As I thought DoomBar hailed from Cornwall brewed by Sharps,,,


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## HughJars (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Both you and clubchamp are right.

The Home Office had a campaign in 2013 that had phone numbers on the side of vans as well as go home now or risk arrest. It got pulled following an uproar.
		
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Well not really, nothing to do with the Brexit campaign, although no doubt did help to further ingrain the anti-foreigner rhetoric and feelings in England pushed by the Mail, Express & their ilk.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Properly puzzled... As I thought DoomBar hailed from Cornwall brewed by Sharps,,,
		
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It used to be. Back when it was a lovely pint. Now it's been sold, the recipe has been changed and the mash efficiency has been increased to above 100%. This means that the brewing process is now almost totally automated. 
It's still a decent pint, it's just not Doombar anymore.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			If I could be so bold as to put forward a theory..

It's dawned on me that a sizable percentage of the Leave vote have done so because of their utter disillusionment with the Political Classes. They were probably quite unhappy before the Expenses Scandal, but are utterly furious now that nothing appears to have happened. the Banking Scandal has also added petrol to the flames.

They have now taken the first available opportunity to reject a Political Body (A General Election would not provide this outlet as they would have to vote for another Party anyway). They have vented their ire at an Organisation (The EU) that is clearly riddled with the same issues as more local Government. Who can blame them for that?

However, what if that particular troubled organisation is actually one that holds the other more local troubled organisation in check? What if what they have actually done is to place more power in the hands of those who caused most of the problems in the first place. What if, by virtue of the Referendum, we have actually made things much much worse? We have put power into the hands of the much vaunted Global Elite (Corporations). Now wouldn't that be a kick in the nuts?

Anyway, just my musings whilst I've had my head stuck in spreadsheets for the last 3 days!!!!!!!!
		
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Can't answer for all those that voted leave...
Basically I am anti establishment and question why government/bureaucracy feels it has the need/right to interfere as much as it does into our lives... Truly believe there are way too many layers of bureaucracy and the only thing they appear good at is creating more bureaucracy to the benefit of themselves... I also feel Brussels are largely at fault creating policies and mechanisms which have allowed/encouraged 'big business' to prosper at the expense of 'regular folk'...


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Can't answer for all those that voted leave...
Basically I am anti establishment and question why government/bureaucracy feels it has the need/right to interfere as much as it does into our lives... Truly believe there are way too many layers of bureaucracy and the only thing they appear good at is creating more bureaucracy to the benefit of themselves... I also feel Brussels are largely at fault creating policies and mechanisms which have allowed/encouraged 'big business' to prosper at the expense of 'regular folk'...
		
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The layer of bureaucracy that absolutely burns my ass! The police and crime commissioners. An example, Vera Bird, the ex-Labour MP who lost her seat several years back. A failed politician gets the â€˜safe seatâ€™ as an elected commissioner in a Labour area. Donâ€™t spend money on this, spend it directly on the Police service. They bring in these positions and the service continues to go backwards due to lack of funding.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The layer of bureaucracy that absolutely burns my ass! The police and crime commissioners. An example, Vera Bird, the ex-Labour MP who lost her seat several years back. A failed politician gets the â€˜safe seatâ€™ as an elected commissioner in a Labour area. Donâ€™t spend money on this, spend it directly on the Police service. They bring in these positions and the service continues to go backwards due to lack of funding.
		
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Failed politician, huge waste of money, now a Dame .


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 7, 2018)

HughJars said:



			I'm sure you're well aware, but here you go

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ning-resumes-as-jeremy-corbyn-and-michael-g2/

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Yes I remember this was refugees 
But the home office did a similar thing pity you canâ€™t find that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I remember this was refugees
But the home office did a similar thing pity you canâ€™t find that.
		
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This?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/31/go-home-vans-11-leave-britain


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/31/go-home-vans-11-leave-britain

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Thatâ€™s the one thank you.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			It used to be. Back when it was a lovely pint. Now it's been sold, the recipe has been changed and the mash efficiency has been increased to above 100%. This means that the brewing process is now almost totally automated. 
It's still a decent pint, it's just not Doombar anymore.
		
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The fact that it's brewed in Burton is not the issue, Burton was still in the UK last time I went there. Does this mean the workers had a 90% pay cut then.
A British Steak from Lidl was still made in the UK, did the producer get a 90% pay cut.
My Barbour Jacket is 10 years old and still holding together, it's not really a luxury brand but more of a good quality British brand and great value for money seeing it keeps a British worker employed and spreading the cost works out very reasonable. Did Barbour employees get a 90% wage cut.
I accept I was wrong with the Clarke's shoes but it's good to hear they are returning some production to Street. Will these employees get a 90% wage cut.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 7, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



View attachment 26079

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Thought you were more grown up than this.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The fact that it's brewed in Burton is not the issue, Burton was still in the UK last time I went there. Does this mean the workers had a 90% pay cut then.
A British Steak from Lidl was still made in the UK, did the producer get a 90% pay cut.
My Barbour Jacket is 10 years old and still holding together, it's not really a luxury brand but more of a good quality British brand and great value for money seeing it keeps a British worker employed and spreading the cost works out very reasonable. Did Barbour employees get a 90% wage cut.
I accept I was wrong with the Clarke's shoes but it's good to hear they are returning some production to Street. Will these employees get a 90% wage cut.
		
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It's not a British Company. The process is automated. the Hops are most likely eastern European. They haven't had a 90% pay cut. There are just less people working on it. Which equates to exactly the same thing....

Sorry, your Sp on the original post looked more like Burberry than Barbour. And it's not an affordable brand for many. For instance, I have a Barbour flat cap. It cost Â£45. I have a Barbour shirt. It cost Â£70. I have a Barbour jacket. It cost over Â£200. If you think that this is affordable for most then you really don't understand the state of British finances.

Your British steak was farmed using automated methods and then the butchery process was automated. This requires much less land, cheaper feed and less people working on it.

You appear to have taken issue with the direction that Capitalism is taking. Look around you, analyse the deficit/debt. Take notice that we have one of the worst State Pension schemes in the developed World (It might also be worthwhile noting that the EU is very unhappy with our paltry State Pension and would like it to fall in line with the rest of Europe - I wonder why this isn't being publicised?). Look at where the money has actually gone over the last 10 years.


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## Foxholer (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:





SocketRocket said:



			...I purchased a very nice pint of Doombar at Â£2.50 in a local hostilary today....
		
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Ok.Doombar is not British. It's brewed in Burton on Trent and owned by Molsen Coors.
		
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A minor point to perhaps correct an otherwise fine post...If the Doombar was draft, as I expect it was, then it was brewed in Rock. Bottled Doombar is brewed in Burton.


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## Beezerk (Dec 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Thought you were more grown up than this.
		
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I canâ€™t believe he managed to post it, I tried the other week but the file was too big ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			It's not a British Company. The process is automated. the Hops are most likely eastern European. They haven't had a 90% pay cut. There are just less people working on it. Which equates to exactly the same thing....

Sorry, your Sp on the original post looked more like Burberry than Barbour. And it's not an affordable brand for many. For instance, I have a Barbour flat cap. It cost Â£45. I have a Barbour shirt. It cost Â£70. I have a Barbour jacket. It cost over Â£200. If you think that this is affordable for most then you really don't understand the state of British finances.

Your British steak was farmed using automated methods and then the butchery process was automated. This requires much less land, cheaper feed and less people working on it.

You appear to have taken issue with the direction that Capitalism is taking. Look around you, analyse the deficit/debt. Take notice that we have one of the worst State Pension schemes in the developed World (It might also be worthwhile noting that the EU is very unhappy with our paltry State Pension and would like it to fall in line with the rest of Europe - I wonder why this isn't being publicised?). Look at where the money has actually gone over the last 10 years.
		
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My Barbour Jacket works out at Â£14 a year, IMO that's very good value for money and more affordable than buying a Â£50 Matalan one that lasts 18 months. I think.you will find the hops in Doombar are grown in Herefordshire and the Lidl steak traceable to the farm the animal was breed.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			A minor point to perhaps correct an otherwise fine post...If the Doombar was draft, as I expect it was, then it was brewed in Rock. Bottled Doombar is brewed in Burton.
		
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An excellent point
Still about as British as Jaguar land Rover.....


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			My Barbour Jacket works out at Â£14 a year, IMO that's very good value for money and more affordable than buying a Â£50 Matalan one that lasts 18 months. I think.you will find the hops in Doombar ate grown in Herefordshire and the Lidl steak traceable to the farm the animal was breed.
		
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I think you'll find that the hops are sourced from wherever is cheaper at the time, and Eastern Europe actually produces far better hops that the British versions on which they base themselves on due to the better weather (for hops anyway). Pretty much all hops are bought from Brokers. There has been a significant hop shortage over the last 5 years due to the appropriation of hop growing land for more profitable crops. That is changing at the moment as the price of hops has rocketed recently. Just try getting hold of certain American or New Zealand hops. They have been bought in bulk before they've even been grown..

And I didn't question where the meat came from, just how it was raised and butchered.. Nice try though..

Also, the yearly cost of your jacket is irrelevant unless Banks are now giving out loans for clothes. I have a Napapijri jacket that I've had for about 15 years. It's great and works out at about Â£25 per year. Of course, if the unemployed were to be seen wearing Barbour and Napapjri then this forum would be up in arms about a life on benefits being too cushy.. They just can't win can they?


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## Mudball (Dec 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The fact that it's brewed in Burton is not the issue, Burton was still in the UK last time I went there. Does this mean the workers had a 90% pay cut then.
A British Steak from Lidl was still made in the UK, did the producer get a 90% pay cut.
My Barbour Jacket is 10 years old and still holding together, it's not really a luxury brand but more of a good quality British brand and great value for money seeing it keeps a British worker employed and spreading the cost works out very reasonable. Did Barbour employees get a 90% wage cut.
I accept I was wrong with the Clarke's shoes but it's good to hear they are returning some production to Street. Will these employees get a 90% wage cut.
		
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irrespective of if Burton is in the UK or not or Barbour/Burburry is made in the UK, the truth is that supply chains are now global.   Even Scottish Salmon comes to your plate via China (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news...ack-again-cods-10000-mile-trip-to-your-table/ )..   I guess the point is that if we think we can simply pull up the drawbridge as a way to exclude 'foreigners'/immigrants and continue to function the way we are then we are mistaken.  Tarriffs will go up, yes trade will continue, there will be winners and losers.  The key question will we have more winners than losers?  the real answer is no one really knows.  Its is a leap into the unknow of a cliff whose height no one can guage.  

Will it bring Scottish Salmon processing back to the UK? Sure it can?  However, can you afford to eat salmon processed in Scotland - i cant answer that.   
In comparison - The great Orange Head Fearless Leader of the free World  wants automakers to move manufacturing to the US and create thousands of jobs.  The car manufacturers can do that because the Orange one is throwing a lot of tariff incentives.  The small detail is that new factories employee very few people directly.  So they will create a hundred job rather than thousands.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 7, 2018)

Back in the 60's Dad took us to where he 'holidayed ' as a kid... It was a hop farm in Kent.. The farmer allowed us on site to check out the accommodation, which was still in place, more or less oversized dog kennels... Certainly no centre parks... Believe most hops grown in Kent nowadays is for decorative purposes...

For lunch I am having some German style soup made in the Netherlands purchased from a German shop... Aldis! Wonder if they feel the same, as I do, eating British chocolate made on the continent...


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The layer of bureaucracy that absolutely burns my ass! The police and crime commissioners. An example, Vera Bird, the ex-Labour MP who lost her seat several years back. A failed politician gets the â€˜safe seatâ€™ as an elected commissioner in a Labour area. Donâ€™t spend money on this, spend it directly on the Police service. They bring in these positions and the service continues to go backwards due to lack of funding.
		
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And what has this got to do with the EU


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## SocketRocket (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I think you'll find that the hops are sourced from wherever is cheaper at the time, and Eastern Europe actually produces far better hops that the British versions on which they base themselves on due to the better weather (for hops anyway). Pretty much all hops are bought from Brokers. There has been a significant hop shortage over the last 5 years due to the appropriation of hop growing land for more profitable crops. That is changing at the moment as the price of hops has rocketed recently. Just try getting hold of certain American or New Zealand hops. They have been bought in bulk before they've even been grown..

And I didn't question where the meat came from, just how it was raised and butchered.. Nice try though..

Also, the yearly cost of your jacket is irrelevant unless Banks are now giving out loans for clothes. I have a Napapijri jacket that I've had for about 15 years. It's great and works out at about Â£25 per year. Of course, if the unemployed were to be seen wearing Barbour and Napapjri then this forum would be up in arms about a life on benefits being too cushy.. They just can't win can they?
		
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why not take a look at Lidls site and see how they only use meat from sustainable sources who have high animal welfare standards and conform to the repairs and red tractor standards, just take a look.  Then have a look at Sharps site and see how they brew their beer and source ingredients.   If you think the average person can't afford a Barbour Jacket then just open your eyes and see what cars they drive and clothes they wear.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			why not take a look at Lidls site and see how they only use meat from sustainable sources who have high animal welfare standards and conform to the repairs and red tractor standards, just take a look.  Then have a look at Sharps site and see how they brew their beer and source ingredients.   If you think the average person can't afford a Barbour Jacket then just open your eyes and see what cars they drive and clothes they wear.
		
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What is your idea of the â€œaverage personâ€ because you donâ€™t see the â€œaverage personâ€ spending over Â£150 on a coat ! 

I canâ€™t wait to live your land of milk and honey and all the opportunities that are going just appear


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			why not take a look at Lidls site and see how they only use meat from sustainable sources who have high animal welfare standards and conform to the repairs and red tractor standards, just take a look.  Then have a look at Sharps site and see how they brew their beer and source ingredients.   If you think the average person can't afford a Barbour Jacket then just open your eyes and see what cars they drive and clothes they wear.
		
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Ok. I'll humour you on the first one. You're arguing the wrong point though.

I don't need to look at the 2nd one. I've been to both breweries and I know exactly what hops they use. The Northdown is local but the northern grower and perle are predominantly German with some from Eastern Europe when stocks are low. I've actually brewed a clone version myself but have to up the malt bill as I can't get past 90% efficiency.

For your 3rd point, you're being disingenuous. It's not about average, it's about the poorest in society. Your comments smack of "Let them eat cake".

Oh, and I class myself as pretty average and I drive a 10 year old Honda and shop predominantly at Debenhams. I can't afford more than one holiday a year as we have school age kids. I shop at Lidl as it's cheaper and I don't really treat myself to anything other than good golf clubs and wine/beer..

The people you are looking at are in quite a bit of debt (I don't have any other than a small mortgage) and are only 2 payslips away from the breadline. They aint average, they're the modern consumer.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 7, 2018)

Labour promising Scotland the biggest transfer of power and funding in 70 years if they support them in the next election, says McDonald.

[Sub plotâ€¦..We really mean it this time, honest, trust us we are different from the other Labour guys who continually broke their promises]


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Ok. I'll humour you on the first one. You're arguing the wrong point though.

I don't need to look at the 2nd one. I've been to both breweries and I know exactly what hops they use. The Northdown is local but the northern grower and perle are predominantly German with some from Eastern Europe when stocks are low. I've actually brewed a clone version myself but have to up the malt bill as I can't get past 90% efficiency.

For your 3rd point, you're being disingenuous. It's not about average, it's about the poorest in society. Your comments smack of "Let them eat cake".

Oh, and I class myself as pretty average and I drive a 10 year old Honda and shop predominantly at Debenhams. I can't afford more than one holiday a year as we have school age kids. I shop at Lidl as it's cheaper and I don't really treat myself to anything other than good golf clubs and wine/beer..

The people you are looking at are in quite a bit of debt (I don't have any other than a small mortgage) and are only 2 payslips away from the breadline. They aint average, they're the modern consumer.
		
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As an aside to this SR, we do appear to be agreeing on quite a lot. We may disagree on the answer (or at least the scale of the answer) but at least we all can see that there are big problems ahead. So on that note, i'm tipping my Barbour chapeau to you and bowing out for the time being. I have quite a bit of work to do, then I have to take my daughter to her athletics club (in my 10 year old Honda), then I have a rather nice Shiraz in the cupboard and a Cloudwater Bourbon Barrel aged Stout that is like drinking whiskey flavoured dark matter.. Simply gorgeous (but at Â£15 a bottle, an occasional treat)..


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## IanM (Dec 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Labour promising Scotland the biggest transfer of power and funding in 70 years if they support them in the next election, says McDonald.
		
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Dinnae worry Hen, Brussels w'ha tha off ye wi'in 5 years!


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## Foxholer (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			...
I don't need to look at the 2nd one. I've been to both breweries and I know exactly what hops they use. The Northdown is local but the *northern grower* and perle are predominantly German with some from Eastern Europe when stocks are low. I've actually brewed a clone version myself but have to up the malt bill as I can't get past 90% efficiency.
		
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I trust you meant Northern *Brewer*
Don't you just love 'autocorrect/autofill'!

I too have been to (Rock) Brewery - before Molson Coors took it over - and I think before any was brewed in Burton. Not all that far from fabulous St Enedoc! St Auistell Brewery is worth a visit too.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			I trust you meant Northern *Brewer*
Don't you just love 'autocorrect/autofill'!

I too have been to Brewery - before Molson Coors took it over. Not all that far from fabulous St Enedoc!
		
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ðŸ˜‚ I did. Not sure what I put to see it corrected to that! At least it didn't use one of my many "added" words. That could've seen me off the forum ðŸ˜³


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Anyway. I've been thinking about what is the most likely turn of events (no conspiracy theories). 

For me, we're about to see the Deal fall short by approximately 100 votes. This will then lead on to a second referendum with a binary choice. No Deal or No Brexit. 

Not sure what the outcome of that will be though. Still too close to call ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			And what has this got to do with the EU
		
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Absolutely nothing! The discussion at that point was about not blaming the EU for all our ills. But thanks for clearing that up


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Anyway. I've been thinking about what is the most likely turn of events (no conspiracy theories).

For me, we're about to see the Deal fall short by approximately 100 votes. This will then lead on to a second referendum with a binary choice. No Deal or No Brexit.

Not sure what the outcome of that will be though. Still too close to call ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸
		
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As in Hard Brexit or No Brexit?  Possibly might happen. But I imagine it would be absolute political carnage. And will do nothing to heal the polarisation in society.  But then again I can't see any way out of this this won't end up with a lot of people being very upset and a lot of people losing faith in politicians who will either a) ignore the democratic will of the people or b) deliberately vote to make us less well off as a nation. Depending on your point of view. 

My hope now is for May to go (and hopefully take a lot of other of the current crop on both sides with her) and the EU then giving us more time to try and negotiate with new faces in charge. We come to a compromise that will absolutely please no one but is the best we will get, some kind of deal is arranged and we then spend the next few decades still arguing about it.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			As in Hard Brexit or No Brexit?  Possibly might happen. But I imagine it would be absolute political carnage. And will do nothing to heal the polarisation in society.  But then again I can't see any way out of this this won't end up with a lot of people being very upset and a lot of people losing faith in politicians who will either a) ignore the democratic will of the people or b) deliberately vote to make us less well off as a nation. Depending on your point of view.

My hope now is for May to go (and hopefully take a lot of other of the current crop on both sides with her) and the EU then giving us more time to try and negotiate with new faces in charge. We come to a compromise that will absolutely please no one but is the best we will get, some kind of deal is arranged and we then spend the next few decades still arguing about it. 

Click to expand...

I did mean that yes. No Deal (Hard Brexit) or No Brexit. I can't see any other option after watching the discussions in the HOC over the last few days. I just can't see the EU wanting to give us more time. As much as it's carnage for us, it's carnage for them as well. Whatever happens, happens in March next year..


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## chrisd (Dec 7, 2018)

If we do go for another vote I'd like to see all leavers protest by abstaining, I know it wont happen but let's face it, democracy 
will be dead at that point anyway.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			As in Hard Brexit or No Brexit?  Possibly might happen. But I imagine it would be absolute political carnage. And will do nothing to heal the polarisation in society.  But then again I can't see any way out of this this won't end up with a lot of people being very upset and *a lot of people losing faith in politicians *who will either a) ignore the democratic will of the people or b) deliberately vote to make us less well off as a nation. Depending on your point of view.

My hope now is for May to go (and hopefully take a lot of other of the current crop on both sides with her) and the EU then giving us more time to try and negotiate with new faces in charge. We come to a compromise that will absolutely please no one but is the best we will get, some kind of deal is arranged and we then spend the next few decades still arguing about it. 

Click to expand...

You can't lose what you've never had.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I did mean that yes. No Deal (Hard Brexit) or No Brexit. I can't see any other option after watching the discussions in the HOC over the last few days. I just can't see the EU wanting to give us more time. As much as it's carnage for us, it's carnage for them as well. Whatever happens, happens in March next year..
		
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Purely for discussion, assuming No Brexit, where do you think we will sit re contributions; will this cost us, save us a few Euros or business as normal?


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## chrisd (Dec 7, 2018)

Just an odd thought, if the EU can do a deal for us to leave but dont really want us to, why can't they do a deal for us to stay, make it better than Cameron was offered and address immigration etc in a more acceptable way and then suggest that we have another vote?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 7, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Purely for discussion, assuming No Brexit, where do you think we will sit re contributions; will this cost us, save us a few Euros or business as normal?
		
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Apparently, if we don't leave then we remain on exactly the same terms including the rebate etc. They can't punish us. This came up on a program, or news, that I was watching.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2018)

chrisd said:



			If we do go for another vote I'd like to see all leavers protest by abstaining, I know it wont happen but let's face it, democracy
will be dead at that point anyway.
		
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Not sure I follow the logic, since the referendum more evidence on impacts have surfaced as have different versions of leave. We also now have â€œa dealâ€ , with details, like it or not all deals will encapsulate the key points of this â€œdealâ€ . No deal, is deemed to be unacceptable, except to a few people who have their heads buried in the sand ... the Norway deal which people think they will get but why bother, even the Norwegianâ€™s think we are donuts for wanting that one. Then there is remain ... which was least popular in the referendum at the time when no one knew any consequences of leaving or the options /deals and several million suddenly realised they should have voted if they really wanted to stay.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Purely for discussion, assuming No Brexit, where do you think we will sit re contributions; will this cost us, save us a few Euros or business as normal?
		
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As the dinky Lord stated, we'd be in exactly the same position as before. We may even be in a slightly stronger position as we'd have more time to prepare ourselves for a Hard Brexit and could use this to increase our influence. Then again, who really knows?


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## chrisd (Dec 7, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Not sure I follow the logic, since the referendum more evidence on impacts have surfaced as have different versions of leave. We also now have â€œa dealâ€ , with details, like it or not all deals will encapsulate the key points of this â€œdealâ€ . No deal, is deemed to be unacceptable, except to a few people who have their heads buried in the sand ... the Norway deal which people think they will get but why bother, even the Norwegianâ€™s think we are donuts for wanting that one. Then there is remain ... which was least popular in the referendum at the time when no one knew any consequences of leaving or the options /deals and several million suddenly realised they should have voted if they really wanted to stay.
		
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But if David Cameron had come back from his talks with a much better deal there would not even have been a referendum which should have told the EU to try again and get it right, and not leave it to the Remainers to try and push for the "keep voting until you get it right".


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Just an odd thought, if the EU can do a deal for us to leave but dont really want us to, why can't they do a deal for us to stay, make it better than Cameron was offered and address immigration etc in a more acceptable way and then suggest that we have another vote?
		
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I'm not sure that logic flows. The Deal to leave was worse than our current position because it had to be. For the very same reason they can't arrange a better deal for us to Stay.


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## IanM (Dec 7, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Apparently, if we don't leave then we remain on exactly the same terms including the rebate etc. They can't punish us. This came up on a program, or news, that I was watching.
		
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...other than the report issued to the Central Bank this week about pan EU debt will require fairly significant rethink about funding.....we will indeed stay on current terms, but longer term lose the rebate and expect contributions to rise sharply. 

Of course we could also have a Corbyn Government then too.... he may let you keep some of your wages!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2018)

chrisd said:



*But if David Cameron had come back from his talks with a much better deal there would not even have been a referendum *which should have told the EU to try again and get it right, and not leave it to the Remainers to try and push for the "keep voting until you get it right".
		
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I'm not sure about that, I suspect the Tories would have still been under pressure from UKIP so may well have still promised a referendum.  Remember they were pretty sure they'd stay in so they probably thought it was a win win, get UKIP off their backs for a while and also not having to deal with the resultant carnage.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2018)

IanM said:



			...other than the report issued to the Central Bank this week about pan EU debt will require fairly significant rethink about funding.....we will indeed stay on current terms, but longer term lose the rebate and expect contributions to rise sharply.

Of course we could also have a Corbyn Government then too.... *he may let you keep some of you wages! *

Click to expand...

Eye, and he may even fund schools and hospitals as well  

Trouble he he is as clueless as anyone is on this, so that would be a double whammy for the Tory party, still no agreement on what we are to do plus they are no longer in power.


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## IanM (Dec 7, 2018)

UKIP no longer a threat to Tories since the new head seems matey with some unsavouries!  (No, not David Lammy!)

Refererendum was only called as they were told there was no way of "losing!"


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## IanM (Dec 7, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Eye, and he may even fund schools and hospitals as well 

Click to expand...

He'll need to!  You cant keep adding endlessly to a queue and not expect it to get longer!!


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## Foxholer (Dec 7, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Just an odd thought, if the EU can do a deal for us to leave but dont really want us to, why can't they do a deal for us to stay, make it better than Cameron was offered and address immigration etc in a more acceptable way and then suggest that we have another vote?
		
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That would be my preferred option, but I don't believe it's likely to ever (have) be(en) on the table!

The 'real' reasons for the 'Leave' win seems to have been voters view for UK to regain control of immigration and to be able to control what it is committed to, financially (eliminating EU levy), legally (UK Courts having ultimate jurisdiction cf ECJ) and policy-wise (so the likes of an EU Army can't be foisted upon it!).

The above reasons seem to be so fundamentally against the EU's principles that they would never, imo, be offered!


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## IanM (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Anyway. I've been thinking about what is the most likely turn of events (no conspiracy theories).

For me, we're about to see the Deal fall short by approximately 100 votes. This will then lead on to a second referendum with a binary choice. No Deal or No Brexit.
		
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Correct.  That has been the startegy since the establishment lost the Referendum.  3 years of campaigning on it too by one well funded lot.  The others went home celebrating their "win".... what I dont understand is why they thought the Govt would implement the Referendum... no vote against the EU has ever "not-been" re-run!


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Apparently, if we don't leave then we remain on exactly the same terms including the rebate etc. They can't punish us. This came up on a program, or news, that I was watching.
		
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Thanks


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			As the dinky Lord stated, we'd be in exactly the same position as before. We may even be in a slightly stronger position as we'd have more time to prepare ourselves for a Hard Brexit and could use this to increase our influence. *Then again, who really knows?*

Click to expand...

Certainly not the politicians!  Thanks


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## Foxholer (Dec 7, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			...
My hope now is for May to go (and hopefully take a lot of other of the current crop on both sides with her) and the EU then giving us more time to try and negotiate with new faces in charge. We come to a compromise that will absolutely please no one but is the best we will get, some kind of deal is arranged and we then spend the next few decades still arguing about it. 

Click to expand...

It was a poisoned chalice - that she was prepared to sup from. Probably didn't envisage that EU negotiators would take such a 'hard' line! Or maybe she was happy to arrive at this point and force a 2nd referendum, with a different result!

And the alternatives to May as PM aren't particularly great imo!


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## chrisd (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I'm not sure that logic flows. The Deal to leave was worse than our current position because it had to be. For the very same reason they can't arrange a better deal for us to Stay.
		
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They could give us a better deal to stay than the one to leave, they could give other member state better terms they could, if they really wanted to, to run the show properly ðŸ¤”


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2018)

chrisd said:



			If we do go for another vote I'd like to see all leavers protest by abstaining, I know it wont happen but let's face it, democracy
will be dead at that point anyway.
		
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One of my very best friends, an ardent Remainer who even handed out leaflets on the Saturdays in the run up to the referendum, has said she will, very reluctantly, vote Leave if thereâ€™s a second vote. In her view, democracy comes first.


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## chrisd (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			One of my very best friends, an ardent Remainer who even handed out leaflets on the Saturdays in the run up to the referendum, has said she will, very reluctantly, vote Leave if thereâ€™s a second vote. In her view, democracy comes first.
		
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I only wish that all voters would see the point Brian. Where would politics go from there?


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			One of my very best friends, an ardent Remainer who even handed out leaflets on the Saturdays in the run up to the referendum, has said she will, very reluctantly, vote Leave if thereâ€™s a second vote. In her view, democracy comes first.
		
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Any my mum who voted to leave the first time said she would vote to remain now as she felt she was lied to about the supposed benefits, the supposed ease of leaving and getting trade deals and the state of country after a hard Brexit for her grandchildren.  Both are right in their minds and mind the minds of many others. Including me.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 7, 2018)

A refresher on what was promised to the public by the Prime Minister. It was very clear how the referendum result would be honoured. If Brexit is not carried out then how could there be any faith in our democracy or politicians.  Play it and consider what was said.


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## IainP (Dec 7, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			"No Deal or No Brexit."
As in Hard Brexit or No Brexit?
		
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Funny how people are different. I can understand what is meant by "no deal"

Whereas "Hard Brexit" just seems like a made up media phrase which each person can interpret differently.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 7, 2018)

IanM said:



			Dinnae worry Hen, Brussels w'ha tha off ye wi'in 5 years!  

Click to expand...

If you had read the second line you would [perhaps] have understood that there would be no chance of getting it in the first place.


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2018)

IainP said:



			Funny how people are different. I can understand what is meant by "no deal"

Wheares "Hard Brexit" just seems like a made up media phrase which each person can interpret differently.
		
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Ah, but hard Brexit has negative connotations. Don't forget, "crash out," and "cliff edge."


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 7, 2018)

IanM said:



			UKIP no longer a threat to Tories since the new head seems matey with some unsavouries!  (No, not David Lammy!)

Refererendum was only called as they were told there was no way of "losing!"
		
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Scottish UKIP leader resigns because UKIP is becoming anti Muslim and pro English Nationalist. 
Becoming ?

He must have blanked his own anti Muslim comments last year.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Ah, but hard Brexit has negative connotations. Don't forget, "crash out," and "cliff edge." 

Click to expand...

And "not knowing if the tide is in or out" and "rocks at the bottom of the cliff".


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Well, I think we can all agree that my first week as Pritti Patel's PR Person went well? ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Dec 7, 2018)

IainP said:



			Funny how people are different. I can understand what is meant by "no deal"

Whereas "Hard Brexit" just seems like a made up media phrase which each person can interpret differently.
		
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Its similar to 'crashing into the EU' or 'A hard remain'


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 7, 2018)

IainP said:



			Funny how people are different. I can understand what is meant by "no deal"

Whereas "Hard Brexit" just seems like a made up media phrase which each person can interpret differently.
		
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I asked as I was not sure if the OP meant a hard brexit in the sense that most people understand a hard brexit to be, or a no deal and go back to renegotiate.

In a world of 'Taxpayers alliances' and 'European Research Groups', getting upset that someone has said Hard Brexit, a term that the vast majority of people understand what it means, is a bit rich.  And of course it is a made up media phrase, that's what the media does.  Another example that is used as a shorthand as everyone understands what it means include Brexit. As I imagine 'leaving the EU' just didn't scan.

Also it could have been worse, such as 'Shooting ourselves in the foot' brexit, or 'Doing what every forecast has indicated will make us economically worse off, especially the vulnerable' Brexit or 'An opportunity for the disaster capitalists who are pushing for this to make money' brexit.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

IainP said:



			Funny how people are different. I can understand what is meant by "no deal"

Whereas "Hard Brexit" just seems like a made up media phrase which each person can interpret differently.
		
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To be fair, I think the term "Hard Brexit" was coined merely to differentiate the different types of Brexit and not as a comparison with Remain....


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## Sweep (Dec 7, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			David Lammy speaking with passion, realism and clarity about the EU and leaving it.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...h-to-the-house-of-commons-on-brexit-1-5806571

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Ah, the man who thought WW1 ended at 11 minutes past 11 on the 11th month.
I have had a belly full of the anti democratic plonker on Twitter, so I will give your link a miss thanks.


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## Sweep (Dec 7, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They were the posters that May authorised when she was Home Secretary
The separatist ones were from UKIP.
Remember when they used a picture of Syrian refugees [not immigrants] and inferred they were queuing up to come to the UK.  Not forgetting the 51 million Turkish residents who would also be joining the queue. That really shook up the OAPs.
		
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Whilst the posters about illegal immigrants (thatâ€™s illegal, not refugees or people here legally) saying the authorities were coming to get you could be considered distasteful, I was surprised no-one was too bothered when the TV licence people used the same tactic.
As for the Turks, itâ€™s the EU that wonâ€™t let them in. It has nothing to do with British OAPâ€™s


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## Sweep (Dec 7, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I asked as I was not sure if the OP meant a hard brexit in the sense that most people understand a hard brexit to be, or a no deal and go back to renegotiate.

In a world of 'Taxpayers alliances' and 'European Research Groups', getting upset that someone has said Hard Brexit, a term that the vast majority of people understand what it means, is a bit rich.  And of course it is a made up media phrase, that's what the media does.  Another example that is used as a shorthand as everyone understands what it means include Brexit. As I imagine 'leaving the EU' just didn't scan.

Also it could have been worse, such as 'Shooting ourselves in the foot' brexit, or 'Doing what every forecast has indicated will make us economically worse off, especially the vulnerable' Brexit or 'An opportunity for the disaster capitalists who are pushing for this to make money' brexit. 

Click to expand...

Or they could have used â€œCrashing out without a dealâ€ or â€œCliff edge Brexitâ€. That would have been dreadful media manipulation.... oh, hang on.


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## Sweep (Dec 7, 2018)

Funny how we never hear â€œlet our country be run by others remainâ€ or â€œhave people who never appeared on a ballot in charge of our union remainâ€ or â€œpay more in and get less out remainâ€ or â€œno idea what the population of our country will be next week remainâ€ or â€œguess where parliament is this week remainâ€ or â€œno need to prove MEP expenses remainâ€ or â€œallow our laws to be made by others remainâ€ or â€œa Hotel California remainâ€....


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## Slime (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			One of my very best friends, an ardent Remainer who even handed out leaflets on the Saturdays in the run up to the referendum, has said she will, very reluctantly, vote Leave if thereâ€™s a second vote. In her view, democracy comes first.
		
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I don't know who she is, but I like her.


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## drdel (Dec 7, 2018)

So we have Ministers aound the country drumming up support. I thought the vote was in the HoC by MPs - unless there's a seond referendum! But that can't be true because the PM, et al has said they will not support a second vote !!!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 7, 2018)

drdel said:



			So we have Ministers aound the country drumming up support. I thought the vote was in the HoC by MPs - unless there's a seond referendum! But that can't be true because the PM, et al has said they will not support a second vote !!!
		
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Waste of time. 70% of constituencies voted leave but their representivitives in parliament don't wish to reflect  this.  If there is another general election local parties should consider if their representatives are worth keeping.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Waste of time. 70% of constituencies voted leave but their representivitives in parliament don't wish to reflect  this.  If there is another general election local parties should consider if their representatives are worth keeping.
		
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I understand the sentiment but how would that actually work? If there was a 2nd referendum and the result was reversed, wouldn't that result then reflect what the People thought? You're asking the Public to deselect politicians who agree with them at that point?


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## chrisd (Dec 7, 2018)

I live close to the Channel Tunnel and the M20 from Dover, the local news has just said that they might fly in drugs,  why are they planning to look after Columbian dealers ðŸ¤”


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I live close to the Channel Tunnel and the M20 from Dover, the local news has just said that they might fly in drugs,  why are they planning to look after Columbian dealers ðŸ¤”
		
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They'll be flying them out too.  

The UK is the 3rd largest producer of Pharmaceuticals in the EU, and the second largest exporter. Of course the EU will stop medicines at Calais Can you imagine Macron, "I'm very sorry aunt Fifi is dead but I couldn't have the filthy British medicines in our country."


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I understand the sentiment but how would that actually work? If there was a 2nd referendum and the result was reversed, wouldn't that result then reflect what the People thought? You're asking the Public to deselect politicians who agree with them at that point?
		
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Would a reversed result reflect the peoples' thoughts, or reflect that the peoples' will had been beaten into submission by the lies & deceit from the politicians the people elected to serve them but who instead serve their own interests first and foremost?


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I understand the sentiment but how would that actually work? If there was a 2nd referendum and the result was reversed, wouldn't that result then reflect what the People thought? You're asking the Public to deselect politicians who agree with them at that point?
		
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The previous result reflected what people thought. Why have another one?


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Would a reversed result reflect the peoples' thoughts, or reflect that the peoples' will had been beaten into submission by the lies & deceit from the politicians the people elected to serve them but who instead serve their own interests first and foremost?
		
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The same could be said for the first referendum, surely?

If the people are that weak before the 2nd ref, then it's only logic that they could be that weak before the first? And Hogie's been taking stick for 2 years for saying that same thing!!!


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The previous result reflected what people thought. Why have another one?
		
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I haven't ever asked for a 2nd referendum. Not once. I was simply questioning the logic behind SR's post.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			The same could be said for the first referendum, surely?

If the people are that weak before the 2nd ref, then it's only logic that they could be that weak before the first? *And Hogie's been taking stick for 2 years for saying that same thing!!!*

Click to expand...

No he's not been taking stick for saying that same thing; he's been taking stick for the utterly obnoxious, condescending, insulting and downright rude manner in which he said that same thing.  In my opinion of course.


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## bluewolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			No he's not been taking stick for saying that same thing; he's been taking stick for the utterly obnoxious, condescending, insulting and downright rude manner in which he said that same thing.  In my opinion of course. 

Click to expand...

Ok. I stand corrected ðŸ˜‰


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## spongebob59 (Dec 7, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I live close to the Channel Tunnel and the M20 from Dover, the local news has just said that they might fly in drugs,  why are they planning to look after Columbian dealers ðŸ¤”
		
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So is this behind the big campaign to keep  manston open ðŸ˜€


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## SocketRocket (Dec 7, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I haven't ever asked for a 2nd referendum. Not once. I was simply questioning the logic behind SR's post.
		
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I can only ask you to look at the video in post #2626 and then explain why leaving the EU should be complicated.


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## jp5 (Dec 8, 2018)

Not sure why anything Cameron said is of relevance now? He decided to no longer be in charge of the country.

His forecasts for the economic effects of a leave vote were wrong, so don't expect his views on leaving to be right either.


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## bluewolf (Dec 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I can only ask you to look at the video in post #2626 and then explain why leaving the EU should be complicated.
		
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I'm really not sure if the relevance here. That was a speech given by possibly the worst PM in memory (prior to TM) as part of a negotiation. I'd have been surprised if he'd said anything different.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Would a reversed result reflect the peoples' thoughts, or reflect that the peoples' will had been beaten into submission by the lies & deceit from the politicians the people elected to serve them but who instead serve their own interests first and foremost?
		
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I see someone has likened the Brexit monstermucklefuddle to the start of the 1914/18 war.
The biggest act to self harm ever inflicted on the nation.


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			I'm really not sure if the relevance here. That was a speech given by possibly the worst PM in memory (prior to TM) as part of a negotiation. I'd have been surprised if he'd said anything different.
		
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I think the only relevance to it, and others like it, is to show it was made very clear what people voted for. People were told that it was out of the SM and CU.

Isnâ€™t it strange that it appears to only be Remainers who say no one knew what people were voting for.


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## bluewolf (Dec 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I think the only relevance to it, and others like it, is to show it was made very clear what people voted for. People were told that it was out of the SM and CU.

Isnâ€™t it strange that it appears to only be Remainers who say no one knew what people were voting for.
		
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I'd hardly expect the winning side to say that. If Remain had won then I'm 100% sure that the Leave side would be saying all the same things that are being said currently. 

Also, I've never said that the Leave vote was ignorant. I've always maintained that the issue was so complex that no one could possibly have known what Leave was going to look like. Anyone who says they knew exactly what they were voting for is naive at best.


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## bluewolf (Dec 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see someone has likened the Brexit monstermucklefuddle to the start of the 1914/18 war.
The biggest act to self harm ever inflicted on the nation.
		
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Right. I'm in a sensitive state so I'm going to just say it. 

It's people like you, on both sides of the debate, who are responsible for the deep divisions in society currently. You offer nothing but cheap snide digs, hoping to provoke a response.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 8, 2018)

The scaremongering continues, ques at Dover for 6 months, bodies not being collected from the morgue. What next ? Quicker this deal gets voted down and May is forced to resign the better, get somebody with a bit of backbone in, leave on WTO terms, uncertainty in the short term but save 39 billion and become more competitive and open up the rest of the world for trade. The EU is a disgrace, the Soviet union collapsed, so will the EU eventually


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2018)

Parsaregood said:



			The scaremongering continues, ques at Dover for 6 months, bodies not being collected from the morgue. What next ? *Quicker this deal gets voted down and May is forced to resign the better, get somebody with a bit of backbone in, leave on WTO terms,* uncertainty in the short term but save 39 billion and become more competitive and open up the rest of the world for trade. The EU is a disgrace, the Soviet union collapsed, so will the EU eventually
		
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That won't achieve anything like what you seem to want! And it's likely to cost more than the 39Billion you mention - which is still likely need to be paid anyway!

Can you sctually name a country that UK is prevented from trading with by EU rules (save the likes of those subject to international sanctions for money laundering etc). UK can (and does!) still trade with countries without specific Trade Agreements with EU - Aus and NZ for example!


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## jp5 (Dec 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Isnâ€™t it strange that it appears to only be Remainers who say no one knew what people were voting for.
		
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I expect most leave voters knew what they were voting for. Unfortunately, it wasn't necessarily the same as all the other leave voters! Hence why two and a half years on, we're no closer to a resolution.


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2018)

jp5 said:



			I expect most leave voters knew what they were voting for. Unfortunately, it wasn't necessarily the same as all the other leave voters! Hence why two and a half years on, we're no closer to a resolution.
		
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I agree. Much like a GE, most have an idea what they are voting for, but few will be bothered with all the details.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Not sure why anything Cameron said is of relevance now? He decided to no longer be in charge of the country.

His forecasts for the economic effects of a leave vote were wrong, so don't expect his views on leaving to be right either.
		
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The point is he was the Prime Minister and telling us whatever the result of the referendum it would be honoured, no second referendums, no ifs no butts, out.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Right. I'm in a sensitive state so I'm going to just say it.

It's people like you, on both sides of the debate, who are responsible for the deep divisions in society currently. You offer nothing but cheap snide digs, hoping to provoke a response.
		
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Sorry if I have offended you but do you expect me to twiddle my fingers whilst half of the Tory party [probably a third now] take the UK off the edge of a cliff.
I have offered plenty of advice on what should have happen, it is just probably advice that you disagree with.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 8, 2018)

jp5 said:



			I expect most leave voters knew what they were voting for. Unfortunately, it wasn't necessarily the same as all the other leave voters! Hence why two and a half years on, we're no closer to a resolution.
		
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Think that's nailed it.  There's also an issue over if leaving the EU will sort out some of the issues that were a main driver behind why some people voted to leave.  Or indeed staying in would keep the perceived benefits the remainers were liking. And that's before you factor in that various forms of Brexit will sort some out for some and not for others.

I expect we'll end up going to either of the extremes on both sides, hard Brexit or a 2nd referendum. As politics seems increasingly to be about extremes and less and less about compromise.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry if I have offended you but do you expect me to twiddle my fingers whilst* half of the Tory party [probably a third now] take the UK off the edge of a cliff.*
I have offered plenty of advice on what should have happen, it is just probably advice that you disagree with.
		
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There is a very strong argument that Labour, whilst not being totally as culpable, are also playing fantasy delusional unicorn politics at the moment with Corbyn's alternatives.  And they have shown very little real opposition in the whole process. After all, we have a government at war with itself and I know I've said it before, but as a chair of governors, if I let the our governing board behave as the government is behaving, we'd be in special measures. But they are still ahead in the polls.

A pox on both their houses as slick Willy once said.


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## Sweep (Dec 8, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			That won't achieve anything like what you seem to want! And it's likely to cost more than the 39Billion you mention - which is still likely need to be paid anyway!

Can you sctually name a country that UK is prevented from trading with by EU rules (save the likes of those subject to international sanctions for money laundering etc). UK can (and does!) still trade with countries without specific Trade Agreements with EU - Aus and NZ for example!
		
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The operative words â€œby EU rulesâ€


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2018)

Spot on..... I shall donate Â£5 to my local hospice if anyone on here can give a coherent description of Labour's position on Brexit.


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## Sweep (Dec 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry if I have offended you but do you expect me to twiddle my fingers whilst half of the Tory party [probably a third now] take the UK off the edge of a cliff.
I have offered plenty of advice on what should have happen, it is just probably advice that you disagree with.
		
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Perhaps you should consider how making cheap snide digs contributes to resolving the issue.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 8, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Perhaps you should consider how making cheap snide digs contributes to resolving the issue.
		
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Errr emmâ€¦.. perhaps by folk realising that by voting leave they have made a serious error of judgement influenced by the lies spread by the MSM and right wing politicians and that if we press the reset button things would be massively better.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 8, 2018)

Sweep said:



			The operative words â€œby EU rulesâ€
		
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Well yes because the question was if there are any countries that we can not trade with because we are in the EU. Where you adhere to EU rules.  Which may or may not prevent us from trading with other countries.  Hence the question. As it does not make sense saying you want to leave the EU so you can open up the rest of the world to trade with if the EU does not stop you doing that in the first place.


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## Hobbit (Dec 8, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well yes because the question was if there are any countries that we can not trade with because we are in the EU. Where you adhere to EU rules.  Which may or may not prevent us from trading with other countries.  Hence the question. As it does not make sense saying you want to leave the EU so you can open up the rest of the world to trade with if the EU does not stop you doing that in the first place.
		
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Sort of, yes there are countries an EU country can't trade with. You may well be able to buy xx products at favourable rates UNTIL you've imported your quota from that country. And a number of countries also 'suffer' high tariff rates. The EU, especially Germany, has also fallen foul of WTO rules on a number of occasions for unfair trading.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well yes because the question was if there are any countries that we can not trade with because we are in the EU. Where you adhere to EU rules.  Which may or may not prevent us from trading with other countries.  Hence the question. As it does not make sense saying you want to leave the EU so you can open up the rest of the world to trade with if the EU does not stop you doing that in the first place.
		
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The operative words "By EU rules"


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Errr emmâ€¦.. perhaps by folk realising that by voting leave they have made a serious error of judgement influenced by the lies spread by the MSM and right wing politicians and that if we press the reset button things would be massively better.

Click to expand...

You can't help yourself. The smiley fools no one by the way


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Spot on..... I shall donate Â£5 to my local hospice if anyone on here can give a coherent description of Labour's position on Brexit.
		
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SELF edifying


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## Slime (Dec 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The previous result reflected what people thought. Why have another one?
		
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Because the Remainers are stamping their feet because they're bad losers.


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## Slime (Dec 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry if I have offended you but do you expect me to twiddle my fingers whilst *half of the Tory party [probably a third now] take the UK off the edge of a cliff.*
I have offered plenty of advice on what should have happen, it is just probably advice that you disagree with.
		
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What cliff is that, then?


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## Slime (Dec 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Errr emmâ€¦.. *perhaps by folk realising that by voting leave they have made a serious error of judgement* influenced by the lies spread by the MSM and right wing politicians and that if we press the reset button things would be massively better.

Click to expand...

One of the most pompous and patronising posts I've ever read on this, or any other, forum.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The operative words "By EU rules"
		
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I know. Sorry if I'm being dense here but I'm trying to say that if you are in the EU you abide by their rules.  Golfers as much as anyone should realise that if you are a member of a club or play the game you abide by the rules.  I think the point was being made was if those rules are causing us to not be able to trade etc.  No one is disputing the fact that if you are a member of a club you abide by their rules.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 8, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Sort of, yes there are countries an EU country can't trade with. You may well be able to buy xx products at favourable rates UNTIL you've imported your quota from that country. And a number of countries also 'suffer' high tariff rates. The EU, especially Germany, has also fallen foul of WTO rules on a number of occasions for unfair trading.
		
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Thank you. Genuinely it is nice to see a factual answer to a question posed that adds to the debate.


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## Dando (Dec 8, 2018)

Slime said:



			One of the most pompous and patronising posts I've ever read on this, or any other, forum.
		
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Iâ€™m sure SILH will be along soon to reclaim his title!!!!!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 8, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Well, I think we can all agree that my first week as Pritti Patel's PR Person went well? ðŸ˜‰
		
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Looks like she's played a blinder.  And of course is resorting to the 'my comments were taken out of context' excuse. Classic PR there, well played sir.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 8, 2018)

He's not for staying but the sound of it :

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...4/jeremy-corbyn-blasts-neoliberal-eu-he-calls


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## chrisd (Dec 8, 2018)

Its lucky that the opinion of no one really counts for diddly squat on here otherwise certain posters would really aggravate me!


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Errr emmâ€¦.. perhaps by folk realising that by voting leave they have made a serious error of judgement influenced by the lies spread by the MSM and right wing politicians and that if we press the reset button things would be massively better.

Click to expand...


I donâ€™t read papers or watch the news. That stuff is poison for everyone. Biased what ever way you swing.  I made the decision on my own based on that i donâ€™t believe we need two parliaments governing decoding or making laws for my small country of England.


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## Sweep (Dec 8, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Errr emmâ€¦.. perhaps by folk realising that by voting leave they have made a serious error of judgement influenced by the lies spread by the MSM and right wing politicians and that if we press the reset button things would be massively better.

Click to expand...

And how is making cheap, snide digs designed to provoke a reaction going to help? Do you really think leavers are going to think â€œoh, Doon is taliking poo again. Yet another pointless dig thatâ€™s offers nothing to the debate. That means I must have voted wrongly. I will turn over a new leaf and become a remainer.â€?


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## Sweep (Dec 8, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well yes because the question was if there are any countries that we can not trade with because we are in the EU. Where you adhere to EU rules.  Which may or may not prevent us from trading with other countries.  Hence the question. As it does not make sense saying you want to leave the EU so you can open up the rest of the world to trade with if the EU does not stop you doing that in the first place.
		
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The problem is â€œEU rulesâ€. As has already been said, EU rules complicate matters considerably. All sorts of stuff applies mainly because the EU feels it has to protect its own industries and services. Importantly though we could negotiate better deals ourselves, particularly on free trade arrangements, especially with Commonwealth countries who we pretty much ditched to join the EEC just as many were becoming â€œTigerâ€ economies. 
There are two big issues here. Goods and people. If we could move goods freely without FOM for people that would be great. But the EU wonâ€™t let us. They wonâ€™t allow us into the customs union and do trade deals with other countries probably because we could buy stuff cheaper from outside the EU than other EU countries and sell them into the EU and therefore mess up their protectionist principle.
They wonâ€™t allow us to trade freely if we are not in the EU. Fair enough. We canâ€™t have our cake and eat it.
BTW a lot of people supporting EU protectionism oppose Trump for doing the same thing.
All this said, if the EU was still just a trading deal, even with the barriers to other foreign trade in place, I do not believe we would have voted to leave. But, as it has evolved into something quite different with â€œnation statusâ€, a flag, an anthem, a parliament or two, a commission, courts, law makers, currency, unelected and unsackable leaders, FOM and now seemingly an army, all without the consent of its citizens itâ€™s simply a different deal. The world has shrunk. I run a small business and whilst we sell to Europe we also buy from and sell to another 26 countries around the world. Europe is a big trading partner to Britain partly because of historical ties due to locality. That locality is not so important anymore. If businesses like mine can trade with the other side of the world, anyone can. So British people are prepared to forego the trade deal for the opportunity to ditch all the other bad stuff which comes with EU membership and the chance to improve our prospects with other nations the world over.


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## LIG (Dec 8, 2018)

Wished we had voted remain simply because with ANY economic jolts it's always the poorest/least able to cope who will bear the anguish of being unable to provide for their families. Only the spivs and wide boys (big business & conmen) get through such periods without feeling the pain.

Having said that, there's just no way I would agree to sign a document that gives someone else future authority over my actions. This is exactly what the PM's deal is, as it currently stands!
Can we renegotiate? IMHO its doubtful in the extreme we can get anything that's palatable to us, as it would be unpalatable to the EU.

In these circumstances, a hard brexit is the only way forward based on the referendum result.

Many say that based on new/more information/precise information many people would vote to stay in. IMHO, that is irrelevant and a red herring. The result of any new referendum, were it to go the other way, would be so divisive that a new vote should be avoided. 
Who knows maybe there'll be a vote to rejoin the EU club, in 10/20/30 years time!


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## harpo_72 (Dec 8, 2018)

Sweep said:



			And how is making cheap, snide digs designed to provoke a reaction going to help? Do you really think leavers are going to think â€œoh, Doon is taliking poo again. Yet another pointless dig thatâ€™s offers nothing to the debate. That means I must have voted wrongly. I will turn over a new leaf and become a remainer.â€?
		
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Brutally honest this is the pot calling the kettle black ... and it seems more prevalent on the leavers side with some pretty condescending remarks, snide emojis and some pretty abrasive posts. Meaning those who voted to remain usually switch off. 

Although there has been some good posts, and they have shown some common ground and 2 different approaches to a common issue.


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## Sweep (Dec 8, 2018)

I think we also should recognise that whilst free trade is preferable, it may not be all itâ€™s cracked up to be.
I saw an interview with Peter Lilley the other day who said he was full of optimism when he signed us into the European free trade arrangement. However since then he said our WTO trading has increased 3 times more than our free trade with EU nations. America sells more to the EU on WTO rates than we do freely and imports less. Now, the US is a much bigger country than us so you may expect the figures to be bigger, but still.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Brutally honest this is the pot calling the kettle black ... and it seems more prevalent on the leavers side with some pretty condescending remarks, snide emojis and some pretty abrasive posts. Meaning those who voted to remain usually switch off.

Although there has been some good posts, and they have shown some common ground and 2 different approaches to a common issue.
		
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Oh the irony!  You consistently use insults against people with a different  view, in fact you  just did it again here suggesting its leavers who are condescending and snide.  Never mind  Pots and Kettles, how about Greenhouses and Stones.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 8, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh the irony!  You consistently use insults against people with a different  view, in fact you  just did it again here suggesting its leavers who are condescending and snide.  Never mind  Pots and Kettles, how about Greenhouses and Stones.
		
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Your the best though x


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I know. Sorry if I'm being dense here but I'm trying to say that if you are in the EU you abide by their rules.  Golfers as much as anyone should realise that if you are a member of a club or play the game you abide by the rules.  I think the point was being made was if those rules are causing us to not be able to trade etc.  No one is disputing the fact that if you are a member of a club you abide by their rules.
		
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Dear Member. Please be advised that if you play golf at any other club we will expect that club to pay a 20% tariff to make our greenfees seem better value. We would also bring it to your notice that we restrict the number of times these clubs allow you to play  as you may start prefering them and have the audacity to leave us and join them.
De Management.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Your the best though x
		
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Thank you.


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The operative words "By EU rules"
		
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Indeed!

Which ones? Specific examples? It's no trick question! I'm simply trying to fully understand the actual problem that the UK is deemed to have regarding trading with the rest of the world, while also being in the EU. 

I suspect the (real) answer would/will be an argument for why the EU is deemed to be 'protectionist' btw, so an opportunity for those who know the details to explain - compared to simply hearing and regurgitating emotive terms/phrases (propaganda!).


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## IanM (Dec 9, 2018)

So, you are saying categorically, that the uk is free to set up trade deals with any other country in the world on whatever terms it can negotiate?

Meanwhile, military vehicles bearing the EU flag are being used against protesters in Paris.......


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 9, 2018)

IanM said:



			S*o, you are saying categorically, that the uk is free to set up trade deals with any other country in the world on whatever terms it can negotiate?*

Meanwhile, military vehicles bearing the EU flag are being used against protesters in Paris.......
		
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Probably not, don't think anyone's arguing that they impose conditions as being part of their club.  But then again are you saying that it is worth time, effort and resources needed to renegotiate numerous deals that we already have through the EU. When that time, effort and resources could be spent on addressing the pressing issues we have in this country regarding public service funding, NHS waiting times, kids on mopeds causing havoc, school funding being cut to the bone etc. Or even getting our economy and workforce into a position where it can compete in a world of increasing automation.

As to be honest I'd rather us concentrate on those issues as I can see the immediate and tangible benefits of doing that.


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## IanM (Dec 9, 2018)

No. I was answering the preceding question.


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2018)

IanM said:



			So, you are saying categorically, that the uk is free to set up trade deals with any other country in the world on whatever terms it can negotiate?
.....
		
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Was that a question for me?


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## jp5 (Dec 9, 2018)

A strong case for the softer Norway style Brexit if Mrs May's deal doesn't go through, from someone you wouldn't expect to be making it!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1071735830526480384


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## Sweep (Dec 9, 2018)

jp5 said:



			A strong case for the softer Norway style Brexit if Mrs May's deal doesn't go through, from someone you wouldn't expect to be making it!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1071735830526480384

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As a regular importer from Norway, I would love to know what a Norway style agreement is, in practice.
The goods I purchase from Norway go though customs and duty is charged at WTO rates, just like if I import from China or the US. In fact if anything, importing from Norway is a lot more hassle than importing from anywhere else. I once tried to do a cross trade Norway to Germany. It took 4 weeks for one pallet to be delivered. I could have sent it from China quicker. German customs just couldnâ€™t get their head around Norwegian goods sold from the UK to Germany. Now I just quote a lot more, import it into the UK, clear through UK (EU) customs and send to Germany. 
In addition, when we send Norway stuff it seems to take forever. I am not sure why this is.
I have asked lots of people including customs agents and freight forwarders why we are paying duty and why the goods are being held up in customs, when all I hear about on TV is this Norway style agreement. All I get is a shrug of the shoulders.
Oh and a couple of other sticking point. EFTA doesnâ€™t want us in. And seemingly we would have to accept FOM of people, services, finance and goods, though as you can see from my experience, the goods bit is ambiguous.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 9, 2018)

oh so true !!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1071743010495328261


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## Sweep (Dec 9, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed!

Which ones? Specific examples? It's no trick question! I'm simply trying to fully understand the actual problem that the UK is deemed to have regarding trading with the rest of the world, while also being in the EU.

I suspect the (real) answer would/will be an argument for why the EU is deemed to be 'protectionist' btw, so an opportunity for those who know the details to explain - compared to simply hearing and regurgitating emotive terms/phrases (propaganda!).
		
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Oh, that is a massive question and would take another 10,000 posts to answer ðŸ˜€. The rules are often different for different types of goods and which country you are dealing with. Some goods face quotas, others donâ€™t. The bottom line is that the EU is trying to do free trade deals, but experiences difficulty because it also has to protect the industries in all the different countries. The UK doesnâ€™t have the same scale of problem and is often better placed to do a deal because of connections  like the Commonwealth etc.
Indeed, many UK industries have suffered or disappeared because of our membership of the EU, like shipbuilding for example. I recall Mrs T buying all the coal she needed from Germany when our miners went on strike. In addition we canâ€™t put our own caps on imports from abroad. So when Far East imports are killing manufacturing at home, we donâ€™t have the same control over how we deal with it and have to ask the EU to sort it.
So basically the EU, whilst trying to do free trade deals, is also protectionist. The following two passages are from their own website:
â€œWith the rising threat of protectionism and weakened commitment of large players to global trade governance, the EU must take the lead.â€
And in the very next paragraph...
â€œEuropean jobs in industries... have been hurt by unfair competition from â€œdumped importsâ€, public subsidies and over capacity in some third countries. The EU uses instruments to shield European industries and jobs...â€

So far I believe the EU have done a deal with Canada ( though as an importer and exporter I am still awaiting the details) and a deal with Japan is on the cards. What we do know is neither country has had to sign up to FOM or have the EU make their laws for them.
So, I guess it all comes down to whose deal you prefer. Do you want to hand the control of it to the EU and a â€œone size fits allâ€ policy and hope the increased buying power gets you a better deal with third nations (no evidence of that as far as I can see) or do our own tailor made deals, with no worries about quotas imposed from elsewhere or protecting industries in other EU counties and at the same time dumping all the bad stuff that comes with EU membership.
And all thatâ€™s before I mention the paperwork that comes with selling duty free to other EU nations.


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Oh, that is a massive question and would take another 10,000 posts to answer ðŸ˜€. The rules are often different for different types of goods and which country you are dealing with. Some goods face quotas, others donâ€™t. The bottom line is that the EU is trying to do free trade deals, but experiences difficulty because it also has to protect the industries in all the different countries. The UK doesnâ€™t have the same scale of problem and is often better placed to do a deal because of connections  like the Commonwealth etc.
Indeed, many UK industries have suffered or disappeared because of our membership of the EU, like shipbuilding for example. I recall Mrs T buying all the coal she needed from Germany when our miners went on strike. In addition we canâ€™t put our own caps on imports from abroad. So when Far East imports are killing manufacturing at home, we donâ€™t have the same control over how we deal with it and have to ask the EU to sort it.
So basically the EU, whilst trying to do free trade deals, is also protectionist. The following two passages are from their own website:
â€œWith the rising threat of protectionism and weakened commitment of large players to global trade governance, the EU must take the lead.â€
And in the very next paragraph...
â€œEuropean jobs in industries... have been hurt by unfair competition from â€œdumped importsâ€, public subsidies and over capacity in some third countries. The EU uses instruments to shield European industries and jobs...â€

So far I believe the EU have done a deal with Canada ( though as an importer and exporter I am still awaiting the details) and a deal with Japan is on the cards. What we do know is neither country has had to sign up to FOM or have the EU make their laws for them.
So, I guess it all comes down to whose deal you prefer. Do you want to hand the control of it to the EU and a â€œone size fits allâ€ policy and hope the increased buying power gets you a better deal with third nations (no evidence of that as far as I can see) or do our own tailor made deals, with no worries about quotas imposed from elsewhere or protecting industries in other EU counties and at the same time dumping all the bad stuff that comes with EU membership.
And all thatâ€™s before I mention the paperwork that comes with selling duty free to other EU nations.
		
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Thanks for the reply. I explains a little, but doesn't convince me that the 'antis' haven't been exaggerating the 'problem'!  I've a few specific comments/questions that, given your import/export role,  you might well placed to answer.



Sweep said:



			...The bottom line is that the EU is trying to do free trade deals, but experiences difficulty because it also has to protect the industries in all the different countries. The UK doesnâ€™t have the same scale of problem and is often better placed to do a deal because of connections  like the Commonwealth etc...
		
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I certainly recognise those issues. As a Kiwi - and resident there at the time - I can remember the consequences of UK joining the Common Market. Similarly, I remember the major issues about Poland joining the EU was the effect on German Coal Workers! It's not unreasonable for the UK to 'selfishly' consider whether it's actually in UK's interest to be a 'member of the club'.


Sweep said:



			...
Indeed, many UK industries have suffered or disappeared because of our membership of the EU, like shipbuilding for example. I recall Mrs T buying all the coal she needed from Germany when our miners went on strike. ...
...
		
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Sorry, but I don't believe the loss of Shipbuilding was caused by being a member of the EU! Thatcher's reaction was entirely predictable! 



Sweep said:



			...
So when Far East imports are killing manufacturing at home, we donâ€™t have the same control over how we deal with it and have to ask the EU to sort it.
...
		
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So instead of the UK being protectionist, we request that the EU be protectionist?! H'mm! that sounds like being protectionist, but having 'someone else to blame'!! Doing it in the UK could be more focused, but it's (selfish) protectionism however it's done! 


Sweep said:



			......
So basically the EU, whilst trying to do free trade deals, is also protectionist. The following two passages are from their own website:
â€œWith the rising threat of protectionism and weakened commitment of large players to global trade governance, the EU must take the lead.â€
And in the very next paragraph...
â€œEuropean jobs in industries... have been hurt by unfair competition from â€œdumped importsâ€, public subsidies and over capacity in some third countries. The EU uses instruments to shield European industries and jobs...â€
...
		
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That 1st statement is faff!
Does/should anyone really have a problem with the 2nd paragraph? And would be exactly the same from a UK point of view - but obviously focused on UK industries and jobs! 
My big fear is that many of the 'UK industries and jobs' are in UK to service the EU but sited in UK because of 'better' UK corporate regulation and would disappear from UK into somewhere (else) in EU should UK leave! 



Sweep said:



			...
So far I believe the EU have done a deal with Canada ( though as an importer and exporter I am still awaiting the details) and a deal with Japan is on the cards. What we do know is neither country has had to sign up to FOM or have the EU make their laws for them.
So, I guess it all comes down to whose deal you prefer. Do you want to hand the control of it to the EU and a â€œone size fits allâ€ policy and hope the increased buying power gets you a better deal with third nations (no evidence of that as far as I can see) or do our own tailor made deals, with no worries about quotas imposed from elsewhere or protecting industries in other EU counties and at the same time dumping all the bad stuff that comes with EU membership.
And all thatâ€™s before I mention the paperwork that comes with selling duty free to other EU nations.
		
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Isn't it up to you to find out the details of the Canada agreement?

Yep! That 'one size fits all' may/may not be appropriate! But it also gets access to the trade with the entire EU free of tarrifs/quotas - surely a distinct benefit!

I agree that 'protecting industries in other EU countries' is a 'cost' as is 'all the bad stuff that comes with EU membership'. Much of that seems, to me, to be greatly exaggerated!

That, and many non-trade benefits vs costs, was the basis upon which I voted (Remain) in the referendum! I've definitely moved towards 'Leave' since, for several reasons including a couple of virtually unjustifiable ones!


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			That, and* many non-trade benefits vs costs*, was the basis upon which I voted (Remain) in the referendum! I've definitely moved towards 'Leave' since, for several reasons including a couple of virtually unjustifiable ones!
		
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What do you think are the non-trade benefits of being in the EU? Interested to know if they are general, as in good for the whole of the UK. or personal, as in good for you.

And what are the unjustifiable reasons for moving towards Leave?


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			What do you think are the non-trade benefits of being in the EU? Interested to know if they are general, as in good for the whole of the UK. or personal, as in good for you.

And what are the unjustifiable reasons for moving towards Leave?
		
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Well, the Four Freedoms certainly work both ways! 

I almost always consider the 'general' view - and normally specify when an opinion/benefit is specific to me! Certain;ly, in this case, my view is for the UK in its entirety (even including 'Doon')!

And it was 'virtually unjustifiable'! Kindly get your quotes right! Consequentially, I'm not inclined to specify them as I suspect you'll misuse them - and they are, after all, personal!


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Well, the Four Freedoms certainly work both ways!

I almost always consider the 'general' view - and normally specify when an opinion/benefit is specific to me! Certain;ly, in this case, my view is for the UK in its entirety (even including 'Doon')!

And it was 'virtually unjustifiable'! Kindly get your quotes right! Consequentially, I'm not inclined to specify them as I suspect you'll misuse them - and they are, after all, personal!
		
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That's fair enough. Was just interested that's all - didn't intentionally mean to misquote you - I wasn't looking to use or misuse them. Was just interested in what reasons (virtually unjustifiable or otherwise) someone who voted remain might have for moving towards leave. Thought it would be an interesting conversation.

From my side of things there is one big personal non-trade benefit of us being in the EU. Approximately 80% of my work is in other EU countries and with the UK being a member of the EU I can travel and work freely without any checks. Not sure what will happen when we leave but hopefully an agreement will be reached to allow me to continue.


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## Beezerk (Dec 9, 2018)

Slime said:



			What cliff is that, then?
		
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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's fair enough. Was just interested that's all - didn't intentionally mean to misquote you - I wasn't looking to use or misuse them. Was just interested in what reasons (virtually unjustifiable or otherwise) someone who voted remain might have for moving towards leave. Thought it would be an interesting conversation.

From my side of things there is one big personal non-trade benefit of us being in the EU. Approximately 80% of my work is in other EU countries and with the UK being a member of the EU I can travel and work freely without any checks. Not sure what will happen when we leave but hopefully an agreement will be reached to allow me to continue.
		
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No prob! Unfortunately, it seems to me that actual logic has disappeared from the debate! The 'virtully unjustifiable' reasons are really only 'gut feels' about attitudes by the EU, reinforced by similar intransigent attitudes bt EU negotiators! I'm inclined to believe that either UK negotiators didn't realise the UK's strengths or the EU negptiators were simply intransigent - and the Irish border was simply means to frustrate the entire negotiation!

I was a 'marginal' Remain voter who has become a 'marginal albeit determined' Leave one!

In your case, I'd expect to see lots of stamps in your Passport!


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## User62651 (Dec 9, 2018)

Anyone see the channel4 debate? Imo big loser was Labour's guy, incoherent vagueness, other 3 got their view and position over quite well. Didnt think the show helped May at all wrt Tuesday's vote in commons however..


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			No prob! Unfortunately, it seems to me that actual logic has disappeared from the debate! The 'virtully unjustifiable' reasons are really only 'gut feels' about attitudes by the EU, reinforced by similar intransigent attitudes bt EU negotiators! I'm inclined to believe that either UK negotiators didn't realise the UK's strengths or the EU negptiators were simply intransigent - and the Irish border was simply means to frustrate the entire negotiation!

I was a 'marginal' Remain voter who has become a 'marginal albeit determined' Leave one!

In your case, I'd expect to see lots of stamps in your Passport!
		
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I know what you mean about the attitude of the EU and their negotiations. I've wavered myself from originally being in favour of remain during the first vote to undecided as to how I'd vote if there was a second referendum. I pointed out previously that almost everything the EU demanded was included in the legally binding withdrawal agreement while almost everything the UK wanted is in the Political Declaration that isn't legally enforceable. I'm certainly tempted to switch my support to leave purely because of how badly I believe the government has handled the negotiations and my suspicion that it was done deliberately to stop us actually leaving. Yes, a No Deal Brexit would adversely impact on my ability to work in the EU (for a short period at least) but that would be balanced by EU citizens having the same problem with coming to work in the UK so I would pick up more work in the UK. 

As an aside, were Pritti Patel's comments really that outrageous. They might have been poorly worded but were they actually worse than Macron saying that UK citizens would need a visa to travel to France, threatening to hold up UK lorries at French ports or saying that he would block a trade deal unless French fishing boats were allowed in to UK waters after Brexit? It seems that when it's someone that supports Brexit suggesting something that it's automatically "outrageous" but when it's someone from the other side it's dismissed as "well of course that's what will happen. It was our choice to leave".


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## Sweep (Dec 9, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Thanks for the reply. I explains a little, but doesn't convince me that the 'antis' haven't been exaggerating the 'problem'!  I've a few specific comments/questions that, given your import/export role,  you might well placed to answer.


I certainly recognise those issues. As a Kiwi - and resident there at the time - I can remember the consequences of UK joining the Common Market. Similarly, I remember the major issues about Poland joining the EU was the effect on German Coal Workers! It's not unreasonable for the UK to 'selfishly' consider whether it's actually in UK's interest to be a 'member of the club'.

Sorry, but I don't believe the loss of Shipbuilding was caused by being a member of the EU! Thatcher's reaction was entirely predictable!
*As this is an industry I supply, I can categorically confirm the loss of the shipbuilding industry was caused by being a member of the EU. To be fair, the UK govt failed to help a number of industries against cheap imports prior to us joining the EEC (the textile industry is a prime example) but once we were in we found we had much less ability to act. *

So instead of the UK being protectionist, we request that the EU be protectionist?! H'mm! that sounds like being protectionist, but having 'someone else to blame'!! Doing it in the UK could be more focused, but it's (selfish) protectionism however it's done!
*That is not what I said and I agree that in doing trade deals at all a certain amount of protectionism is required, unless everyone accepts 100% free trade. As that is a campaign that has been running for around 200 years itâ€™s not likely to happen. However the EU has a broader range of industries to protect, meaning less choice for the EU consumer or higher prices.*
That 1st statement is faff!
Does/should anyone really have a problem with the 2nd paragraph? And would be exactly the same from a UK point of view - but obviously focused on UK industries and jobs!
*Much of their stuff is faff. I only posted both paragraphs to illustrate their dilemma and how it affects their dealing strategy.*

My big fear is that many of the 'UK industries and jobs' are in UK to service the EU but sited in UK because of 'better' UK corporate regulation and would disappear from UK into somewhere (else) in EU should UK leave!
*This is a fair concern. It would be foolish to think that there will be no consequences, though I doubt the reality will be anything like the levels of project fear. There will be adjustment and new trading partners will need services. Of course, strictly speaking corporate regulation should be the same across the whole of the EU so in theory no-one should be in the UK whilst it is in the EU for that reason alone, but I take your point.*


Isn't it up to you to find out the details of the Canada agreement?

*There is not much point in doing a trade agreement if you donâ€™t tell anyone. The EU does not communicate with UK businesses directly. The UK government does that. *
Yep! That 'one size fits all' may/may not be appropriate! But it also gets access to the trade with the entire EU free of tarrifs/quotas - surely a distinct benefit!
*I agree. As I have already said, if the EU was still just a trading deal, I doubt anyone would have voted to leave. However, the trading deal is not perfect as I think I have illustrated and the EU is about so much more than that now. So the question is, is the trade deal worth everything else? There is no doubt that my business benefits from the trade deal. My job will become much harder without it. But sometimes you have to vote for what is good for your country than what is better for you. There is no doubt in my mind that all the other stuff is not a price worth paying for the trade deal. That is why I voted to leave.*
I agree that 'protecting industries in other EU countries' is a 'cost' as is 'all the bad stuff that comes with EU membership'. Much of that seems, to me, to be greatly exaggerated!

*Everything is exaggerated, including the benefits of remaining. FYI a typical WTO duty of 6.5% is not the biggest concern for business so free trade is not the be all and end all. More important now is the time goods are held up in customs. No-one can deliver early these days and no-one orders in time.*
That, and many non-trade benefits vs costs, was the basis upon which I voted (Remain) in the referendum! I've definitely moved towards 'Leave' since, for several reasons including a couple of virtually unjustifiable ones!
		
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*I believe that the apparent attempted stitch up by all parties in parliament and the EU to stop us from leaving has incensed a large number of voters. For me, democracy was my number one reason for voting to leave and if democracy fails us I believe it will be catastrophic for this country. Our politicians are playing with fire. They must not fail us on this decision. Democracy must prevail or we are on very dangerous ground. I would hold the same view if we had voted to remain and indeed I would campaign for the result to be upheld.*


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## Sweep (Dec 9, 2018)

Sorry Foxholer, the way I have answered your points may require you to expand my reply above.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I know what you mean about the attitude of the EU and their negotiations. I've wavered myself from originally being in favour of remain during the first vote to undecided as to how I'd vote if there was a second referendum. I pointed out previously that almost everything the EU demanded was included in the legally binding withdrawal agreement while almost everything the UK wanted is in the Political Declaration that isn't legally enforceable. *I'm certainly tempted to switch my support to leave purely because of how badly I believe the government has handled the negotiations *and my suspicion that it was done deliberately to stop us actually leaving. Yes, a No Deal Brexit would adversely impact on my ability to work in the EU (for a short period at least) but that would be balanced by EU citizens having the same problem with coming to work in the UK so I would pick up more work in the UK.

As an aside, were Pritti Patel's comments really that outrageous. They might have been poorly worded but were they actually worse than Macron saying that UK citizens would need a visa to travel to France, threatening to hold up UK lorries at French ports or saying that he would block a trade deal unless French fishing boats were allowed in to UK waters after Brexit? It seems that when it's someone that supports Brexit suggesting something that it's automatically "outrageous" but when it's someone from the other side it's dismissed as "well of course that's what will happen. It was our choice to leave".
		
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Quite ironic reading this.  Whilst I didn't have great issue with the Common Market aspect of the EU, I had little time for the political aspects and aspirations to build a federal republic of Europe.  Someone said to me a while ago that we were like the in-laws of Europe; whilst we'd married into the family, we weren't and never would truly be part of the family.  It struck a chord with me and from things I'd seen & heard, I felt that we could be better off being free to organise our own future as I felt that the EU didn't best serve all our interests, just the interests of some of the members.  I also had an intense dislike of the way in which rules & regulations appeared to be enforced or ignored as it suited certain members.  So I was all in favour of Leave and voted that way.

Having now seen the absolute Horlicks that this shower have made of the negotiations, by design in my opinion, I would now consider changing my vote to remain because I wouldn't trust them to look after our best interests if we did get out.  I'm absolutely convinced that they have engineered the situation we find ourselves of potentially being offered a second vote of No Deal or No Brexit, because it better serves their own interests.       

My father used to say that the only man that ever entered the Houses of Parliament with decent intentions was Guy Fawkes; the older I've got and the longer that this farce in particular has rolled on, the more truth I see in that.


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## Mudball (Dec 9, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I know what you mean about the attitude of the EU and their negotiations. I've wavered myself from originally being in favour of remain during the first vote to undecided as to how I'd vote if there was a second referendum. I pointed out previously that almost everything the EU demanded was included in the legally binding withdrawal agreement while almost everything the UK wanted is in the Political Declaration that isn't legally enforceable.* I'm certainly tempted to switch my support to leave purely because of how badly I believe the government has handled the negotiations and my suspicion that it was done deliberately to stop us actually leaving. *Yes, a No Deal Brexit would adversely impact on my ability to work in the EU (for a short period at least) but that would be balanced by EU citizens having the same problem with coming to work in the UK so I would pick up more work in the UK.

As an aside, were Pritti Patel's comments really that outrageous. They might have been poorly worded but were they actually worse than Macron saying that UK citizens would need a visa to travel to France, threatening to hold up UK lorries at French ports or saying that he would block a trade deal unless French fishing boats were allowed in to UK waters after Brexit? It seems that when it's someone that supports Brexit suggesting something that it's automatically "outrageous" but when it's someone from the other side it's dismissed as "well of course that's what will happen. It was our choice to leave".
		
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1) So are you blaming the EU for the incompetence of our negotiators?  The Irish situation is to keep the union together, so if we want different laws then it is upto us.   Dont blame the EU for wanting to keep the ball from it.  If tomorrow we want to leave the UN or WTO or NATO dont expect to keep the good bits like security while wanting to not contribute via monies or other commitments. 

2) You want to leave just because you want to send a message to the govt for their mishandling...  Ahh the irony.  IIRC, there were a number of cases of people (including some of my friends) who voted Leave because they wanted to send a message to our politicians but at the same time they did not want to leave..  How that has backfired.  So I look forward to another set of people who 'want to send a message' even though they think otherwise..   Bring the popcorn, roll on the next referendum.  Cant wait to hear Dimbles say we have an undecided vote as Remain has become Leave and Leave have Remained.


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## Imurg (Dec 10, 2018)

Well, the fertiliser hits the spinny thing....
Euro court rules that UK can change its mind on Brexit as long as there is a democratic process - vote in parliament, referendum or general election.


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## Hobbit (Dec 10, 2018)

Imurg said:



			Well, the fertiliser hits the spinny thing....
Euro court rules that UK can change its mind on Brexit as long as there is a democratic process - vote in parliament, referendum or general election.
		
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Quite ironic really. â€œFederal rule doesnâ€™t existâ€ but here we are having Europe determine what can happen in U.K. politics. Surely the decision to rescind Brexit should be made In Westminster then the PM should ask the EU can it be done.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2018)

Interesting to hear repeated conspiracy theories over how we have deliberately messed up the negotiations.  Now I suppose that could be true, we could have gone into this with absolutely no intention of leaving.  But on the other hand might a more, dare I say logical or sane explanation be that we were never in a strong negotiating position as we never had, and I doubt never will have, anywhere near an unified position ourselves to start with.  

Fully admit that we have made a bad situation even worse with some of our negotiating tactics, I'd argue mostly by too much pandering to the hard right, but we are straying dangerously close to the tin foil hat brigade if we think it is all a conspiracy.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I know what you mean about the attitude of the EU and their negotiations. I've wavered myself from originally being in favour of remain during the first vote to undecided as to how I'd vote if there was a second referendum. I pointed out previously that almost everything the EU demanded was included in the legally binding withdrawal agreement while almost everything the UK wanted is in the Political Declaration that isn't legally enforceable. I'm certainly tempted to switch my support to leave purely because of how badly I believe the government has handled the negotiations and my suspicion that it was done deliberately to stop us actually leaving. Yes, a No Deal Brexit would adversely impact on my ability to work in the EU (for a short period at least) but that would be balanced by EU citizens having the same problem with coming to work in the UK so I would pick up more work in the UK.

As an aside, were Pritti Patel's comments really that outrageous.* They might have been poorly worded but were they actually worse than Macron saying that UK citizens would need a visa to travel to France, threatening to hold up UK lorries at French ports or saying that he would block a trade deal unless French fishing boats were allowed in to UK waters after Brexit?* It seems that when it's someone that supports Brexit suggesting something that it's automatically "outrageous" but when it's someone from the other side it's dismissed as "well of course that's what will happen. It was our choice to leave".
		
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I think people were upset due to the lack of knowledge of Ms Patel of the historical damage the Irish suffered during the famines. So in my humble opinion yes she was making a very poor comment with a complete lack of tact or context to forward her ideological belief in a hard brexit. Yes worse things happen at sea, but if she is an example of the new breed of politician that will be taking back control then I'd rather we don't.


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## IanM (Dec 10, 2018)

So, the EU memebrs DONT need to vote to have us stay in and keep paying their share of the costs?  Wow... how democratic of them

I think the evidence of EVERY previous vote again the EU being ignored/overturned is sufficient evidence of what was planned for us.  I dont accept its the negiotating position for two reasons... 1) who sells whom more? and 2) with Remainers running the withdrawal, what did you expect?

..but I've mentioned this outcome a few times


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2018)

Imurg said:



			Well, the fertiliser hits the spinny thing....
Euro court rules that UK can change its mind on Brexit as long as there is a democratic process - vote in parliament, referendum or general election.
		
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No big deal as far as I can see!

Just a 'tactic' by a group of folk who can't accept a democratic decision! Ironic that their jobs/positions really only exist because of 'democracy' in the first place!


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2018)

IanM said:



			So, the EU memebrs DONT need to vote to have us stay in and keep paying their share of the costs?  Wow... how democratic of them

I think the evidence of EVERY previous vote again the EU being ignored/overturned is sufficient evidence of what was planned for us.  I dont accept its the negiotating position for two reasons... 1) who sells whom more? and 2) with Remainers running the withdrawal, what did you expect?

..but I've mentioned this outcome a few times

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Must you keep having to be told that 'overturned' 'votes again*st *the EU (such as happened in Ireland normally involved concessions/changes to the 'agreement'!

Remainers are running the withdrawl because (most of) the Brexiters ran away from the task! I detest Gove (for more than simply Brexit) but at least he had the cajones to stand in the Leadership 'battle'! It was and is a poisoned chalice, but I'm really unhappy with the performance of UK negotiation team! I'm more inclined to favour a 'clean break' than this mish-mash!


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 10, 2018)

IanM said:



			So, the EU memebrs DONT need to vote to have us stay in and keep paying their share of the costs?  Wow... how democratic of them

I think the evidence of EVERY previous vote again the EU being ignored/overturned is sufficient evidence of what was planned for us.  I dont accept its the negiotating position for two reasons... 1) who sells whom more? and 2) with Remainers running the withdrawal, what did you expect?

..but I've mentioned this outcome a few times

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Brexiteer's have only themselves to blame as not one of them has been willing to step up to the plate.


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## IanM (Dec 10, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			Brexiteer's have only themselves to blame as not one of them has been willing to step up to the plate.
		
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You are correct....they all went AWOL the day after the Referendum.  Soros and co, doubled their efforts!


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

Foxholer said:



			Must you keep having to be told that 'overturned' 'votes again*st *the EU (such as happened in Ireland normally involved concessions/changes to the 'agreement'!

Remainers are running the withdrawl because (most of) the Brexiters ran away from the task! I detest Gove (for more than simply Brexit) but at least he had the cajones to stand in the Leadership 'battle'! It was and is a poisoned chalice, but I'm really unhappy with the performance of UK negotiation team! I'm more inclined to favour a 'clean break' than this mish-mash!
		
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Remainers would not be running the negotiations if the â€œBrexit Ministerâ€ had been allowed to handle the negotiations and not been superseded by the Europe Department in No.10.

Itâ€™s all smoke and mirrors. You have a team from the UK trying to negotiate for something they donâ€™t want with a team from the EU pretending to negotiate something they donâ€™t want when actually their main focus is protecting the EU project and dissuading other members from going down the same route as the UK.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2018)

OK, let's dive a bit deeper into this.  As it is apparently a conspiracy and the negotiators never wanted to leave in the 1st place, what do you think would have happened if a leaver actually walked the walk and was PM and in charge of negotiating?  So let's say Gove was in charge, what difference do you think he would have achieved based on what we have seen up to now, what kind of deal would he have been able to negotiate?


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## Kellfire (Dec 10, 2018)

Fingers crossed the ruling is acted upon and we have another vote, armed with more knowledge, to decide if we want to leave.


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## USER1999 (Dec 10, 2018)

I think a part of the negotiating went out of the window with Teresa Mays red lines. There was not a lot left to negotiate after these were fixed. On either side.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 10, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			OK, let's dive a bit deeper into this.  As it is apparently a conspiracy and the negotiators never wanted to leave in the 1st place, what do you think would have happened if a leaver actually walked the walk and was PM and in charge of negotiating?  So let's say Gove was in charge, what difference do you think he would have achieved based on what we have seen up to now, what kind of deal would he have been able to negotiate?
		
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We will never know the answer to that as we are too far in. There was no jepoardy in the negotiations for the EU. Imagine if Trump had been negotiating. He would have walked away on day 2 and cut them off, allowing for a no deal. He would have had the balls to see it through and the EU would have known that and have to work out if that is what they would have wanted. He would have got much more from them as that would not have been in the interests of the EU. Horrible man but in this instance I would have wanted him on our team.


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			Brexiteer's have only themselves to blame as not one of them has been willing to step up to the plate.
		
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Not true. Leadsom, Gove and Fox stood for the Tory leadership. May won mainly because the Tories wouldnâ€™t elect a leaver and she made all the right noises about accepting and enacting the democratic choice of the electorate. As Home Secretary she was in the most senior role of any of the candidates so was better placed from the outset. The whole thing opened up for her. The PM, previously secure, went as did the Chancellor.
In any leadership bid there is always going to be political manoeuvring. When Gove stood, Boris calculated it would be better to live to fight another day. I donâ€™t think anyone can accuse him of not wanting to lead his party or be PM.


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			OK, let's dive a bit deeper into this.  As it is apparently a conspiracy and the negotiators never wanted to leave in the 1st place, what do you think would have happened if a leaver actually walked the walk and was PM and in charge of negotiating?  So let's say Gove was in charge, what difference do you think he would have achieved based on what we have seen up to now, what kind of deal would he have been able to negotiate?
		
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Just go back a few thousand posts to see what we could and should have done.
Much of this has been caused by the mindset of parliament, the government, the media and the EU. They are all still debating an issue that was settled in June 2016. The debate on if we are leaving or not was decided then. They have failed to accept this point and have failed everything else thereafter as a result. Both the UK and the EU have failed to look for a good resolution to the negotiations that would actually benefit both parties because they refuse to accept the referendum result. They simply and still cannot believe it has happened.
If they had accepted the decision and when it became apparent the EU was just going to keep batting back every suggestion from the UK, we should have approached it from a business perspective. If you are faced with such a situation in business the UK side would have simply said â€œlook, we are really keen to do a deal which benefits both parties. A good deal is only good if it suits us both. But we are clearly not getting anywhere right now. Things are too raw. Everyone is upset. So, we suggest we just leave now and let the dust settle and negotiate again later.â€  The UK govt would only be enacting the instructions of their electorate. The EU would have realised that it was in their interests to do a deal then and not let the UK talk to the rest of the world before signing with them. 
If Mrs May had stuck to her â€œnothing is agreed until everything is agreedâ€ policy we, her party and the government would not be facing this mess now. But we now find ourselves agreeing to all the stuff the EU wants before we even talk about what we want in terms of trade etc. It is basic capitulation.


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

The best illustration of how bad this deal is for the UK is this.
The UK is having, what 5 days of debate on the WD agreement? The PM has made how many statements to the house? Itâ€™s like Groundhog Day in there.
The EU side, all 27 countries of it, took 40 minutes to agree it.
They couldnâ€™t snap our hands off quick enough.


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## User62651 (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Just go back a few thousand posts to see what we could and should have done.
Much of this has been caused by the mindset of parliament, the government, the media and the EU. They are all still debating an issue that was settled in June 2016. The debate on if we are leaving or not was decided then. They have failed to accept this point and have failed everything else thereafter as a result. Both the UK and the EU have failed to look for a good resolution to the negotiations that would actually benefit both parties because they refuse to accept the referendum result. They simply and still cannot believe it has happened.
If they had accepted the decision and when it became apparent the EU was just going to keep batting back every suggestion from the UK, we should have approached it from a business perspective. If you are faced with such a situation in business the UK side would have simply said â€œlook, we are really keen to do a deal which benefits both parties. A good deal is only good if it suits us both. But we are clearly not getting anywhere right now. Things are too raw. Everyone is upset. So, we suggest we just leave now and let the dust settle and negotiate again later.â€  The UK govt would only be enacting the instructions of their electorate. The EU would have realised that it was in their interests to do a deal then and not let the UK talk to the rest of the world before signing with them.
If Mrs May had stuck to her â€œnothing is agreed until everything is agreedâ€ policy we, her party and the government would not be facing this mess now. But we now find ourselves agreeing to all the stuff the EU wants before we even talk about what we want in terms of trade etc. It is basic capitulation.
		
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..Meantime back in reality....


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2018)

Mudball said:



			1) So are you blaming the EU for the incompetence of our negotiators?  The Irish situation is to keep the union together, so if we want different laws then it is upto us.   Dont blame the EU for wanting to keep the ball from it.  If tomorrow we want to leave the UN or WTO or NATO dont expect to keep the good bits like security while wanting to not contribute via monies or other commitments.

2) You want to leave just because you want to send a message to the govt for their mishandling...  Ahh the irony.  IIRC, there were a number of cases of people (including some of my friends) who voted Leave because they wanted to send a message to our politicians but at the same time they did not want to leave..  How that has backfired.  So I look forward to another set of people who 'want to send a message' even though they think otherwise..   Bring the popcorn, roll on the next referendum.  Cant wait to hear Dimbles say we have an undecided vote as Remain has become Leave and Leave have Remained.
		
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1. No, I lay the blame squarely with the UK negotiators and government, which ultimately means Theresa May. The EU negotiators have done a fantastic job for the EU as they quite rightly should have done.

2. Again no. I don't want to send any message to the government but I am swayed towards voting leave, if there is a second referendum, because I feel that the government have acted in bad faith and misled the electorate during the negotiations and haven't actually believed in the process from the start. Parliament voted in favour of the referendum but a majority still refuse to accept the result. That isn't democracy. What happened to May's "No deal is better than a bad deal"? A fine soundbite but I don't think anybody believed her, least of all the EU. And so we have stumbled into a situation where the deal being presented is a polished dog turd of a deal. It may have been polished but it's still a dog turd of a deal.

All those calling for a second referendum now we know the negotiated agreement are doing so for one of two reasons. Either because they never wanted to leave in the first place and can't accept the result of the first vote. Or because the government have ballsed up the negotiations so badly that the deal on offer is garbage but is being portrayed as the best we can get, which I don't believe is true.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Remainers would not be running the negotiations if the â€œBrexit Ministerâ€ had been allowed to handle the negotiations and not been superseded by the Europe Department in No.10.

Itâ€™s all smoke and mirrors. You have a team from the UK trying to negotiate for something they donâ€™t want with a team from the EU pretending to negotiate something they donâ€™t want *when actually their main focus is protecting the EU project and dissuading other members from going down the same route as the UK.*

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As they were quite correct to do. The EU negotiators were negotiating in the best interests of the EU. It's a shame that the UK negotiators weren't allowed to do the same for the UK.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			The best illustration of how bad this deal is for the UK is this.
The UK is having, what 5 days of debate on the WD agreement? The PM has made how many statements to the house? Itâ€™s like Groundhog Day in there.
The EU side, all 27 countries of it, took 40 minutes to agree it.
They couldnâ€™t snap our hands off quick enough.
		
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Or alternatively the EU were all unified from day 1 in what they wanted and had one agreed vision on what they wanted to achieve, so it was an easy call to make to ratify it. Where as we had a hopelessly confused negotiating position as we have never agreed ourselves under what terms we want to leave.


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## IanM (Dec 10, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Or alternatively the EU were all unified from day 1 in what they wanted and had one agreed vision on what they wanted to achieve, so it was an easy call to make to ratify it. Where as we had a hopelessly confused negotiating position as we have never agreed ourselves under what terms we want to leave.
		
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Again correct.   Their position is "there can be no democratic choice against the EU" - and that is a diect quote!

Negotiation?  Easy!  OK Merkel...how many Beemers do you want to sell us post Brexit?   But of course May wasnt interested in that.


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

If you donâ€™t believe the ECJ ruling that the UK can unilaterally withdraw from A50 was not politically motivated, consider this. Within a couple of hours of the ruling, Paul Scully MP on Sky News said â€œwhen I see the A50 judgement this morning which makes no Brexit far more likely or as a possibility, I am all the more determined to make sure we leave and this deal is the best way to do thatâ€.
So in other words electorate, we know what you voted for but never mind that, itâ€™s either this or nothing.


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## Kellfire (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			If you donâ€™t believe the ECJ ruling that the UK can unilaterally withdraw from A50 was not politically motivated, consider this. Within a couple of hours of the ruling, Paul Scully MP on Sky News said â€œwhen I see the A50 judgement this morning which makes no Brexit far more likely or as a possibility, I am all the more determined to make sure we leave and this deal is the best way to do thatâ€.
So in other words electorate, we know what you voted for but never mind that, itâ€™s either this or nothing.
		
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You still donâ€™t get how a non-legally binding referendum works!


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			..Meantime back in reality....
		
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A not so clever 4 word response that tells us nothing and offers nothing to the debate. Isnâ€™t that the reality?


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			You still donâ€™t get how a non-legally binding referendum works!
		
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You still donâ€™t get how a referendum works! A Democrat only when it suits. But keep clutching at straws. Desperation is a terrible thing.


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## Kellfire (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			You still donâ€™t get how a referendum works! A Democrat only when it suits. But keep clutching at straws. Desperation is a terrible thing.
		
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Democracy is not sticking to one decision forever. Especially when the electorate is now more informed.


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## User62651 (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			A not so clever 4 word response that tells us nothing and offers nothing to the debate. Isnâ€™t that the reality?
		
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Clearly you're wound up. You're posting over and over on this, we get your view, why not take a break for a day?


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Democracy is not sticking to one decision forever. Especially when the electorate is now more informed.
		
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I agree. Like the vote to join the EEC


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## Kellfire (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I agree. Like the vote to join the EEC
		
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Good. So now that we know that we will be worse off in even the best case brexit deal, clearly youâ€™d support another vote to allow the now more informed public a chance to decide if we want to be worse off?


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Clearly you're wound up. You're posting over and over on this, we get your view, why not take a break for a day?
		
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Itâ€™s called taking part in a debate. Maybe you want me to take a break because my view doesnâ€™t agree with yours? Maybe you canâ€™t answer my points in a convincing way? 
I posted sensibly putting my side of the debate and taking the trouble to answer questions others asked, particularly in regard to my field of work, comprehensively and objectively. Sometimes even highlighting the good points about the EU and the compromises it faces.
You on the other hand just resort to insulting posts and effectively telling people to shut up. That generally means you lost the debate.
Itâ€™s a forum. Look it up in the dictionary. If you donâ€™t like what I have to say I believe there is an ignore option.


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Good. So now that we know that we will be worse off in even the best case brexit deal, clearly youâ€™d support another vote to allow the now more informed public a chance to decide if we want to be worse off?
		
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I donâ€™t believe we will be worse off. I also believe that our elected representatives have a duty to enact the result of the referendum that was held 2.5 years ago now. I donâ€™t believe they should embrace democracy when it gets them elected but reject it when it delivers a result they donâ€™t like.
I have no issue whatsoever with people and our elected representatives campaigning for another referendum, when they have done their duty and carried out the instructions of the electorate.
I think itâ€™s vital democracy is respected. As I said in an earlier post, our elected representatives are playing with fire. I believe the consequences for the governance of our country will be huge if the referendum result was not enacted. If we voted to remain I would say the same thing if there was a threat of the government doing the opposite.
Democracy is the only thing the average man in the street has. Without democracy he is powerless.


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## bluewolf (Dec 10, 2018)

Right folks. I've genuinely enjoyed this debate over the last few years. There have been many excellent posts (and many more ridiculous ones). It's been informative and occasionally enlightening. 

However, I think we're about to enter a period of great political unrest and I genuinely don't want to fall out with anyone on here. So therefore I'm going to politely withdraw from the debate until after this whole potato field of a situation has been sorted out. 

Good luck in your future efforts to convert people, and I hope to see you on the other side ðŸ‘


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## Kellfire (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I donâ€™t believe we will be worse off. I also believe that our elected representatives have a duty to enact the result of the referendum that was held 2.5 years ago now. I donâ€™t believe they should embrace democracy when it gets them elected but reject it when it delivers a result they donâ€™t like.
I have no issue whatsoever with people and our elected representatives campaigning for another referendum, when they have done their duty and carried out the instructions of the electorate.
I think itâ€™s vital democracy is respected. As I said in an earlier post, our elected representatives are playing with fire. I believe the consequences for the governance of our country will be huge if the referendum result was not enacted. If we voted to remain I would say the same thing if there was a threat of the government doing the opposite.
Democracy is the only thing the average man in the street has. Without democracy he is powerless.
		
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Your first sentence sums up your approach. We will be worse off.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 10, 2018)

Laura Kuenssberg
â€
Verified account

@bbclaurak
 6m6 minutes ago
More
Two cabinet sources tell me vote being pulled - not, repeat not, yet officially confirmed


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## spongebob59 (Dec 10, 2018)

Remainers have predictably been salivating all over the ECJâ€™s ruling this morning that the UK can â€œunilaterallyâ€ revoke Article 50. The notoriously slow-moving EU Court discovered a remarkable turn of speed to deliver their judgement just in time for it to land one day before the crucial parliamentary vote in the UK. Definitely not a political courtâ€¦

Thereâ€™s just one problem â€“ itâ€™s not what the judgement actually says:

â€œâ€¦the revocation of the notification of the intention to withdraw must, first, be submitted in writing to the European Council and, secondly, be unequivocal and unconditionalâ€¦â€

So it is not as simple as the UK simply telling the European Council it wants to withdraw Article 50 â€“ the EU specifically reserves the power to rule on whether the UKâ€™s notification is truly â€œunequivocal and unconditionalâ€. Guido isnâ€™t aware of any definitions of â€œunilateralâ€ which include having to explicitly gain the approval of someone else. As ever, the ECJ marks its own homework to ensure that it always has the ultimate say over anything a member state can doâ€¦

The bottom line is that Article 50 is not going to be withdrawn unless there is a government in place that is prepared to table an Act of Parliament to unequivocally revoke it, and a Parliament that is prepared to vote this through. Even in todayâ€™s heavily Remainer-loaded Parliament, this is simply not going to happenâ€¦


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## User62651 (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Itâ€™s called taking part in a debate. Maybe you want me to take a break because my view doesnâ€™t agree with yours? Maybe you canâ€™t answer my points in a convincing way?
I posted sensibly putting my side of the debate and taking the trouble to answer questions others asked, particularly in regard to my field of work, comprehensively and objectively. Sometimes even highlighting the good points about the EU and the compromises it faces.
You on the other hand just resort to insulting posts and effectively telling people to shut up. That generally means you lost the debate.
Itâ€™s a forum. Look it up in the dictionary. If you donâ€™t like what I have to say I believe there is an ignore option.
		
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Doesn't matter what you or I think now, that's been debated to death. What's actually happening is parliament, both Commons and Lords have determined a No Deal brexit is off the table so why keep telling us of it's merits when it's not an option going forward? May's deal is what you've got for Leave, take it or leave it.  Democracy didn't end June 2016, if you buy something and find out it's been oversold and not what you wanted, you can opt to take it back.
If Leave remains the popular option then you've nothing to fear from a Peoples vote anyway.


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Your first sentence sums up your approach. We will be worse off.
		
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I guess that depends on whether you believe having others run our country makes us better off. Whether having to be subject to the laws and courts of others makes us better off. If not knowing what the population of our country will be next week and as a result not being able to effectively plan services for all those people, UK nationals or others, makes us better off. Or having unelected and unremovable officials running our union makes us better off. Or having ever more federalism makes us better off.

I do believe that most people who voted remain did so because they felt we would be financially better off staying in. I also believe those who voted to leave did so because they want this country to make its own laws etc. I did the latter and I also believe we will be as financially well off or better off in the long run by being out. The world is much bigger than 27 local countries many of which are in turmoil and not doing too well financially, despite being propped up by the EU.

I guess thatâ€™s the crux of the whole debate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2018)

Projected to be 107 revolting Tories, that is such a massive vote of no confidence, more than a third of her party seats.
I can't see how May can come back from that.


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Doesn't matter what you or I think now, that's been debated to death. What's actually happening is parliament, both Commons and Lords have determined a No Deal brexit is off the table so why keep telling us of it's merits when it's not an option going forward? May's deal is what you've got for Leave, take it or leave it.  Democracy didn't end June 2016, if you buy something and find out it's been oversold and not what you wanted, you can opt to take it back.
If Leave remains the popular option then you've nothing to fear from a Peoples vote anyway.
		
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Of course it matters what you or I think. You agree otherwise you wouldnâ€™t be taking part in this debate or even reading the thread.
I agree itâ€™s been debated to death. My point was it shouldnâ€™t have been. The debate to stay or go was settled, or should have been in June 2016.
This isnâ€™t like buying something from a shop. To use the same analogy if you exchange contracts on buying a house, you are buying it or you face being sued. The question was asked and assurances given the result would be enacted.
My question would be, did you vote in the referendum? If so, why?
If you didnâ€™t expect the result to matter why bother wasting the shoe leather walking to the polling station?
If this decision is not enacted why bother ever voting again?
How long before our political masters will be bemoaning the apathy of the electorate yet again? Just when people had become engaged, particularly following the Scottish independence ballot. How long before accusations of no mandate are levelled at governments? How long before opinions and political views become even more polarised and the far right and far left enjoy popularity? Because thatâ€™s what happens when people feel they are being ignored and have no voice.
In my view anyone who thinks ignoring this result and democracy can be anything other catastrophic is deluding themselves, regardless of the way they voted.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 10, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Right folks. I've genuinely enjoyed this debate over the last few years. There have been many excellent posts (and many more ridiculous ones). It's been informative and occasionally enlightening.

However, I think we're about to enter a period of great political unrest and I genuinely don't want to fall out with anyone on here. So therefore I'm going to politely withdraw from the debate until after this whole potato field of a situation has been sorted out.

Good luck in your future efforts to convert people, and I hope to see you on the other side ðŸ‘
		
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Whilst I understand your reasoning, itâ€™s a shame that the thread will lose one of its better contributors. In my opinion of course... ðŸ˜


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## IanM (Dec 10, 2018)

Check out @MrAlfredGarnettâ€™s Tweet: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1071858073671819266
Nice video... I've seen something like it somewhere before  Nurenbourg , about 1932


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## bluewolf (Dec 10, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Whilst I understand your reasoning, itâ€™s a shame that the thread will lose one of its better contributors. In my opinion of course... ðŸ˜
		
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I'll still be reading the posts mate. I just don't want to get dragged into a downhill spiral that'll end up with people falling out etc. I just can't see how this situation gets sorted without infuriating a large section of the populace. And a Forum is definitely not the right place for reasoned debate ðŸ˜‚


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## IanM (Dec 10, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			If Leave remains the popular option then you've nothing to fear from a Peoples vote anyway.
		
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You are right.... completely  But we've already had it deomonstrated that a Leave Vote will not be implemented.  Another Leave vote will mean a rerun of the past 2 and a half years!   Project Fear 3, more legal stuff and no political will to leave, 

  I guess trust in politicans of any hue is foolhardy!


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## ger147 (Dec 10, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Doesn't matter what you or I think now, that's been debated to death. What's actually happening is parliament, both Commons and Lords have determined a No Deal brexit is off the table so why keep telling us of it's merits when it's not an option going forward? May's deal is what you've got for Leave, take it or leave it.  Democracy didn't end June 2016, if you buy something and find out it's been oversold and not what you wanted, you can opt to take it back.
If Leave remains the popular option then you've nothing to fear from a Peoples vote anyway.
		
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The HoC and the Lords cannot simply state "no deal is off the table" and that's that.

Unless some sort of deal is agreed with the EU and approved by the UK Parliament, leaving with no deal is exactly what is going to happen.

And as Parliament doesn't seem to be able to make up its mind what deal it wants, the prospect of a no deal exit continues to draw ever closer with every passing day...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Right folks. I've genuinely enjoyed this debate over the last few years. There have been many excellent posts (and many more ridiculous ones). It's been informative and occasionally enlightening.

However, I think we're about to enter a period of great political unrest and I genuinely don't want to fall out with anyone on here. So therefore I'm going to politely withdraw from the debate until after this whole potato field of a situation has been sorted out.

Good luck in your future efforts to convert people, and I hope to see you on the other side ðŸ‘
		
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Typical woolly liberal, buggers off when the going gets tough.


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## ger147 (Dec 10, 2018)

HoC vote tomorrow postponed, PM statement at 3:30pm. I wonder what today's plan is going to be...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			Brexiteer's have only themselves to blame as not one of them has been willing to step up to the plate.
		
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And what plate is that?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 10, 2018)

Nicola Sturgeon
â€
Verified account

@NicolaSturgeon
Follow Follow @NicolaSturgeon
More
So @jeremycorbyn - if Labour, as official opposition, lodges motion of no confidence in this incompetent government tomorrow, @theSNP will support & we can then work together to give people the chance to stop Brexit in another vote. This shambles canâ€™t go on - so how about it?


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## IanM (Dec 10, 2018)

Well folks... please vote in this General Election.  The next one after won't count for squat!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Democracy is not sticking to one decision forever. Especially when the electorate is now more informed.
		
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Don't know about you buy I knew exactly what I was voting for.  If your proposition was correct then there should be an infinite number of revotes and especially when someone states an opinion that is opposed to the last vote.  The last referendum was explained as a once in a generation decision, a generation is not two years.


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## Kellfire (Dec 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Don't know about you buy I knew exactly what I was voting for.  If your proposition was correct then there should be an infinite number of revotes and especially when someone states an opinion that is opposed to the last vote.  The last referendum was explained as a once in a generation decision, a generation is not two years.
		
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Thankfully democracy allows us a chance to rectify mistakes before they happen.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 10, 2018)

remember kids, once we are out of the EU then the current politicians in the commons who are making such a great fist of this will be the ones in charge or in opposition. And will have more power to shape our future economic and political.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 10, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Right folks. I've genuinely enjoyed this debate over the last few years. There have been many excellent posts (and many more ridiculous ones). It's been informative and occasionally enlightening.

However, I think we're about to enter a period of great political unrest and I genuinely don't want to fall out with anyone on here. So therefore I'm going to politely withdraw from the debate until after this whole potato field of a situation has been sorted out.

Good luck in your future efforts to convert people, and I hope to see you on the other side ðŸ‘
		
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Thatâ€™s a really big shame because along with people like Hobbit and BIM you provided balance with well thought out eye opening posts 

Listening to the news it looks like the ðŸ’© is about to hit the fan 

What a mess this whole situation is - ripped apart the country and politicians doing nothing but servicing their own needs first. Not looking forward to the next couples of years


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Thankfully democracy allows us a chance to rectify mistakes before they happen.
		
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 It's only a mistake in your opinion and when our opinions were put to the test yours was in a minority. The undermining of democracy by many remain voters is indicative of the creeping lack of moral fibre in our society.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Right folks. I've genuinely enjoyed this debate over the last few years. There have been many excellent posts (and many more ridiculous ones). It's been informative and occasionally enlightening.

However, I think we're about to enter a period of great political unrest and I genuinely don't want to fall out with anyone on here. So therefore I'm going to politely withdraw from the debate until after this whole potato field of a situation has been sorted out.

Good luck in your future efforts to convert people, and I hope to see you on the other side ðŸ‘
		
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Sorry to hear this, we often disagree but manage to discuss our differences without name-calling which is a breath of fresh air on this forum.  Maybe you could reconsider.


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## Hobbit (Dec 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry to hear this, we often disagree but manage to discuss our differences without name-calling which is a breath of fresh air on this forum.  Maybe you could reconsider.
		
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Perhaps we should hold a referendum or offer good terms. But, equally, he can't go till he's paid the divorce bill, and he's not allowed back till we've negotiated terms... Wolfie+++


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## Kellfire (Dec 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			It's only a mistake in your opinion and when our opinions were put to the test yours was in a minority. The undermining of democracy by many remain voters is indicative of the creeping lack of moral fibre in our society.
		
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Nonsense. You can keep shouting that another vote would be undemocratic as much as you want - it will remain untrue and deep down you know that.


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## Mudball (Dec 10, 2018)

Brit humour can be savage..  

Needs audio 




__ https://www.facebook.com/146505212039213/posts/5638853556137657


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## MegaSteve (Dec 10, 2018)

Not sure whether I am more amused or amazed some feel we are now more/ better informed... By treating the electorate like mushrooms is how government/bureaucracy keeps it subservient... Rather than how it should be the other way round...


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## IanM (Dec 10, 2018)

Logical, but ultimately pointless move by the PM.
1) The HoC Remainers will not vote for* any* deal as it is their best way of blocking Brexit
2) Leavers in the HoC will not vote for a fudge, and that's all they'll get offered...

So, the issue of the Irish Border could lead to one of the IRA's biggest fans becoming PM!   Truth is stranger than fiction.


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Remainers would not be running the negotiations if the â€œBrexit Ministerâ€ had been allowed to handle the negotiations and not been superseded by the Europe Department in No.10.

Itâ€™s all smoke and mirrors. You have a team from the UK trying to negotiate for something they donâ€™t want with a team from the EU pretending to negotiate something they donâ€™t want when actually their main focus is protecting the EU project and dissuading other members from going down the same route as the UK.
		
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I actually give the UK negotiators a little more credit than this. Though there was always potential for that 'accusation'. But I certainly agree with the comments about the EU side - a pretty understandable approach from them mind!


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## User62651 (Dec 10, 2018)

IanM said:



			Logical, but ultimately pointless move by the PM.
1) The HoC Remainers will not vote for* any* deal as it is their best way of blocking Brexit
2) Leavers in the HoC will not vote for a fudge, and that's all they'll get offered...

So,* the issue of the Irish Border could lead to one of the IRA's biggest fans becoming PM*!   Truth is stranger than fiction.
		
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You could be writing for The Sun with that right wing drivel.


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## IanM (Dec 10, 2018)

Ok...so he only went to a few funerals and invited them to the HoC after blowing up a Party Conference....  and now sure how that is left or right wing.  (using the definitions)  Or maybe you think he'd didnt? 

So, what is so wrong with the other two items.?


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## DRW (Dec 10, 2018)

I don't really understand why they didn't put it to the vote.

Yeah I know that it would have been voted no, but that would have then forced the hand by either going back to the public with a vote or no deal exit (or the dreamland some hope in going back to EU for a trade free deal )

It would be so interesting to read about if it wasn't the country I live in .


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## woody69 (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I guess that depends on whether you believe having others run our country makes us better off. Whether having to be subject to the laws and courts of others makes us better off. If not knowing what the population of our country will be next week and as a result not being able to effectively plan services for all those people, UK nationals or others, makes us better off. Or having unelected and unremovable officials running our union makes us better off. Or having ever more federalism makes us better off.

I do believe that most people who voted remain did so because they felt we would be financially better off staying in. I also believe those who voted to leave did so because they want this country to make its own laws etc. I did the latter and I also believe we will be as financially well off or better off in the long run by being out. The world is much bigger than 27 local countries many of which are in turmoil and not doing too well financially, despite being propped up by the EU.

I guess thatâ€™s the crux of the whole debate.
		
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I'm still waiting for an example of one law the EU have forced upon the UK that will make us better off, or they realistically think the UK Government would actually implement.

Also, regarding your point on immigration, that could quite easily be resolved if the UK Government was to actually follow the EU Freedom of Movement directive - https://brexit853.wordpress.com/201...-to-control-eu-freedom-of-movement-directive/ 

You might also want to ready a little deeper into your rather simplistic assertion on "un-elected and unremovable (sic) officials" - http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/




			I also believe we will be as financially well off or better off in the long run by being out
		
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Do you have an estimate on how long you are happy for "in the long run" to take?


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## woody69 (Dec 10, 2018)

IanM said:



			Check out @MrAlfredGarnettâ€™s Tweet: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1071858073671819266
Nice video... I've seen something like it somewhere before  Nurenbourg , about 1932
		
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Still banging this drum eh? Hilarious.


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## IanM (Dec 10, 2018)

woody69 said:



			Still banging this drum eh? Hilarious.
		
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...is rather clear about Federalistic intent though isnt it?  Also demonstrates some worrying concerns re his stability.  But of course, best not mention it.  Indeed, you didnt feel able to comment on it.

I've no problem with folk saying they are Federalist.... there are some decent arguements for it.... so just say so, but I do laugh at those who deny the strategy.


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## jp5 (Dec 10, 2018)

How can anyone believe a word that May ever says? Seems to be if she's said one thing you can be pretty guaranteed the opposite will happen.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2018)

Ms Cherry saying if May can change her mind about the vote why does she not allow the public the same opportunity.
Fair point.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 10, 2018)

This is going to damage this Country for years, regardless of how you voted.
Listening and watching the PM in the HoC, nobody will happy, you would of needed 3 boxes on the ballot paper to choose from.
Remain/Leave/Something neither wanted.


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## Hobbit (Dec 10, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Nonsense. You can keep shouting that another vote would be undemocratic as much as you want - it will remain untrue and deep down you know that.
		
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Democracy in its purest form is, a) a proposition is raised, b) the proposition is voted on, c) the result is enacted. Those are the 3 steps needed to satisfy the process of democracy.

What you're are proposing isn't democratic but it is sensible, in its purest form. For example, "I think we should drive off a cliff" is the proposition. "We've voted to agree to drive off the cliff" is the result of the vote. And then the lemmings drive off the cliff. Democracy in its purest form, and just plain stupid.

If there is a consensus not to drive off the cliff by the representative government, because driving off the cliff is stupid, then staying where you are is the sensible thing to do. Its not democratic in the purest sense of democracy, i.e. the closed loop of raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result. But it is perfectly legal in a representative democracy. 

I'd argue its not wise to not follow the decision of the electorate in so much as would they vote for you again if you ignored the result of a vote? And the 'get-out' in this instance is for the Tory government to pass the buck, albeit with the following spin. "We feel that so much has changed in the last 2 years we want you to reassure us that we are following the right path." And a second vote could be taken. Splitting hairs, and undemocratic but it might be the wisest thing for the Tory party to do, if only for its own 'health.'


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## Dando (Dec 10, 2018)

jp5 said:



			How can anyone believe a word that May ever says? Seems to be if she's said one thing you can be pretty guaranteed the opposite will happen.
		
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no different to most MP's then


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## jp5 (Dec 10, 2018)

Dando said:



			no different to most MP's then
		
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I think TM is on another level. No general election -> calls a general election. Won't cancel vote -> does cancel vote. The sooner she resigns and we get one step closer to wherever on earth this is all going the better IMO.


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## Slime (Dec 10, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Right folks. I've genuinely enjoyed this debate over the last few years. There have been many excellent posts (and many more ridiculous ones). It's been informative and occasionally enlightening.

However, I think we're about to enter a period of great political unrest and I genuinely don't want to fall out with anyone on here. So therefore I'm going to politely withdraw from the debate until after this whole potato field of a situation has been sorted out.

Good luck in your future efforts to convert people, and I hope to see you on the other side ðŸ‘
		
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I know we've had our differences but, as many have already said, you'll genuinely be missed from this thread.
As you said .......................... see you on the other side.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2018)

Kellfire said:



			Nonsense. You can keep shouting that another vote would be undemocratic as much as you want - it will remain untrue and deep down you know that.
		
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I think the manner of your reply proves my point.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ms Cherry saying if May can change her mind about the vote why does she not allow the public the same opportunity.
Fair point.
		
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 Absolute rubbish!


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## Kellfire (Dec 10, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I think the manner of your reply proves my point.
		
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It does not.


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## Hobbit (Dec 10, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Absolute rubbish!
		
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Get off the fence Chris.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Get off the fence Chris.

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Well Brian, there is absolutely no similarity between the two points


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 10, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Well Brian, there is absolutely no similarity between the two points
		
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What two points do you mean.
Clearly she changed her mind about going ahead with the vote today.
Did you miss that.


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

woody69 said:



			I'm still waiting for an example of one law the EU have forced upon the UK that will make us better off, or they realistically think the UK Government would actually implement.

Also, regarding your point on immigration, that could quite easily be resolved if the UK Government was to actually follow the EU Freedom of Movement directive - https://brexit853.wordpress.com/201...-to-control-eu-freedom-of-movement-directive/

You might also want to ready a little deeper into your rather simplistic assertion on "un-elected and unremovable (sic) officials" - http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/


Do you have an estimate on how long you are happy for "in the long run" to take?
		
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I didnâ€™t say the EU imposed rules upon us that made us better off. ðŸ¤”

You can google what you like. The truth is that FOM means that anyone with EU citizenship can come to the UK and vice versa. That gives us a lack of control over the numbers that come here and plan for the services people need. The Blair government lied to the UK people (again) about the number of people that would come here following the expansion of the EU to include Poland. The fact that he didnâ€™t apply the 7 year rule as highlighted in your link in reality meant that he was one of the only EU leaders to adhere to spirit of the EU at a time when he was promising a referendum on the Euro. He was applauded then by the Europhiles. Now they are slating him for it.

I donâ€™t need to rethink anything on my assertions on the EU being undemocratic. Tusk, Juncker et al have not appeared on a ballot paper put before the people and are not removable (not sic) by the people. At best democracy in the EU is massively diluted.

I am afraid I donâ€™t have an estimate on how long I would be happy for the long run to take. However, I would certainly be happier for us to be out of the EU during this long run. To listen to some remainers you would think the EU was the land of milk and honey. And yet we have Italy with the most right wing government since Mussolini, Austria (birth place of Hitler) with the most right wing government since, well Hitler, all kinds of other member states not fairing too well financially despite big subsidies from the EU, youth unemployment at ridiculous rates and Paris and Brussels experiencing riots week after week. 

Considering all this, maybe the long run wonâ€™t be that long after all.


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Democracy in its purest form is, a) a proposition is raised, b) the proposition is voted on, c) the result is enacted. Those are the 3 steps needed to satisfy the process of democracy.

What you're are proposing isn't democratic but it is sensible, in its purest form. For example, "I think we should drive off a cliff" is the proposition. "We've voted to agree to drive off the cliff" is the result of the vote. And then the lemmings drive off the cliff. Democracy in its purest form, and just plain stupid.

If there is a consensus not to drive off the cliff by the representative government, because driving off the cliff is stupid, then staying where you are is the sensible thing to do. Its not democratic in the purest sense of democracy, i.e. the closed loop of raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result. But it is perfectly legal in a representative democracy.

I'd argue its not wise to not follow the decision of the electorate in so much as would they vote for you again if you ignored the result of a vote? And the 'get-out' in this instance is for the Tory government to pass the buck, albeit with the following spin. "We feel that so much has changed in the last 2 years we want you to reassure us that we are following the right path." And a second vote could be taken. Splitting hairs, and undemocratic but it might be the wisest thing for the Tory party to do, if only for its own 'health.'
		
Click to expand...

If the Tory party opted for a second referendum it would never recover.


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## Hobbit (Dec 10, 2018)

Sweep said:



			If the Tory party opted for a second referendum it would never recover.
		
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Why?

Would the Leave Tory voters vote Labour? The odd one but not many more. There may well be a resurgence of UKIP, or Farage's new party, when he gets it up and running. And there may be some Leave Tory voters who abstain. But what you've got to remember is 40% of those that voted Leave were from Labour and the LibDems. After one Parliament of a Labour government with Corbyn and McDonnell policies, and the associated tax rises to fund them, the Conservatives would be back in.


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## Slime (Dec 10, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What two points do you mean.
Clearly she changed her mind about going ahead with the vote today.
Did you miss that.
		
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Yeah, because changing ones mind is exactly the same as a referendum.


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## Sweep (Dec 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			This is going to damage this Country for years, regardless of how you voted.
Listening and watching the PM in the HoC, nobody will happy, you would of needed 3 boxes on the ballot paper to choose from.
Remain/Leave/Something neither wanted.
		
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Hobbit said:



			Why?

Would the Leave Tory voters vote Labour? The odd one but not many more. There may well be a resurgence of UKIP, or Farage's new party, when he gets it up and running. And there may be some Leave Tory voters who abstain. But what you've got to remember is 40% of those that voted Leave were from Labour and the LibDems. After one Parliament of a Labour government with Corbyn and McDonnell policies, and the associated tax rises to fund them, the Conservatives would be back in.
		
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The leave voters from any party who went with a second referendum would be incensed. This I believe would be a greater issue for the Tories rather than Labour as Europe has split the Tories for decades with neither side willing to back down. Most UKIP members were disaffected Tories.
I agree most wouldnâ€™t go to Labour but they will never trust the Tories again, even if the second referendum result was leave. They would rather not vote. After all, what is the point in voting when even if you vote with the majority you donâ€™t get what you voted for?
The major problem is that most people, in particular those who voted leave, ie the majority, would lose all faith in democracy and politics in general. As I said earlier, positions will become polarised, the extremes will enjoy a resurgence. Thatâ€™s what happens when people become frustrated and think they are not being listened to. We are seeing this already.
This could split the Tory party and indeed Labour which only a few months ago was being held together with spit and paper lips. We are getting into unchartered territory. New parties could form and take the centre ground. Peter Hargreaves who had already invested 3.2 million into leave says he will fund a new party for committed Brexit politicians from the mainstream parties. Apparently he has more money than Donald Trump.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 10, 2018)

From a personal point of view! 
At the beginning:
Remain - Stay with EU
Leave - Leave(full stop)

I donâ€™t think any deal will please remain supporters, but, even worse for me you have Leave Completely and Leave with a deal.

So whatever happens youâ€™re going to have the Leave supporters split and some will feel betrayed even more than those (in their minds) who voted Remain.


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## chrisd (Dec 10, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What two points do you mean.
Clearly she changed her mind about going ahead with the vote today.
Did you miss that.
		
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So, deciding not to go ahead with a vote tomorrow which she WILL have to hold soon, is the same as undermining the democratic principal and all8wing a vote to reverse a referendum?


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## Hobbit (Dec 10, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			From a personal point of view!
At the beginning:
Remain - Stay with EU
Leave - Leave(full stop)

I donâ€™t think any deal will please remain supporters, but, even worse for me you have Leave Completely and Leave with a deal.

So whatever happens youâ€™re going to have the Leave supporters split and some will feel betrayed even more than those (in their minds) who voted Remain.
		
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I agree it was very much a binary choice at the time of the vote. Two things from that. I think Remain have done a fantastic job of splitting the Leave vote into a number of facets; 'total' Leave, Leave with bits of Remain, a protest Leave but wanted to stay. I think both the Remain campaigners and the govt have done a great job of totally flummoxing the Leave side. If there was another vote now I would doubt they'd make 40% if the question was phrased right.

Personally, irrespective of any personal desire to Remain, I feel we've seen the worst bit of governing for the people ever, and by some wide margin. I think Blue in Munich nailed it yesterday. We're better off being ruled by Brussels because the current crowd, including the official opposition, are inept and incompetent. I think the whole crowd, bar a very very few, are all self-serving party following sheep who are an absolute disgrace to their profession. "Mother of Democracy," oh please, you've got to be joking. They might have given democracy to the world but they forgot to keep some back for themselves.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 10, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I agree it was very much a binary choice at the time of the vote. Two things from that. I think Remain have done a fantastic job of splitting the Leave vote into a number of facets; 'total' Leave, Leave with bits of Remain, a protest Leave but wanted to stay. I think both the Remain campaigners and the govt have done a great job of totally flummoxing the Leave side. If there was another vote now I would doubt they'd make 40% if the question was phrased right.

Personally, irrespective of any personal desire to Remain, I feel we've seen the worst bit of governing for the people ever, and by some wide margin. I think Blue in Munich nailed it yesterday. We're better off being ruled by Brussels because the current crowd, including the official opposition, are inept and incompetent. I think the whole crowd, bar a very very few, are all self-serving party following sheep who are an absolute disgrace to their profession. "Mother of Democracy," oh please, you've got to be joking. They might have given democracy to the world but they forgot to keep some back for themselves.
		
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Agreed mate, the hard line Leavers maybe more frustrated, but I donâ€™t think anyone wins.
The revisiting of the backstop problem put forward today as the reason for delaying the vote is simply an excuse imo, she claimed it was the best deal for Britain last week, so what can change?
Watching BBC Parliament today was embarrassing for the Country.


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## Slab (Dec 11, 2018)

I sit here this morning totallyâ€¦ jeez I donâ€™t even know what it is!

The biggest political game of â€˜call my bluffâ€™ in my lifetime is playing out before the world and no oneâ€™s been appointed â€˜quizmasterâ€™ that can stop the ridiculous game-play, give a right good telling off to the players and send everyone to their rooms without supper! 
Every MP in the HoC should wake up today ashamed and embarrassed with their conduct and performance (on both sides) throughout this mess & I fear its already too late for any of the players to be trusted to govern ever again (either sitting or in opposition) 

They have failed the country and in all likelihood no one will ever be held accountable because they can simply blame the '_people_' for giving them the game to play with in the first place


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## Mudball (Dec 11, 2018)

Omnishambles..  but i must admit, I expected the bill would go thru parliament.   So a bit surprised that it was culled.   The fact that it came down to May going, sign my deal or have Corbyn as PM just shows the moral bankruptcy that we have plummeted to.   I would fire the whole lot. 



Hobbit said:



			I agree it was very much a binary choice at the time of the vote. *Two things from that. I think Remain have done a fantastic job of splitting the Leave vote into a number of facets; 'total' Leave, Leave with bits of Remain, a protest Leave but wanted to stay. I think both the Remain campaigners and the govt have done a great job of totally flummoxing the Leave side. If there was another vote now I would doubt they'd make 40% if the question was phrased right.*

Personally, irrespective of any personal desire to Remain, I feel we've seen the worst bit of governing for the people ever, and by some wide margin. I think Blue in Munich nailed it yesterday. We're better off being ruled by Brussels because the current crowd, including the official opposition, are inept and incompetent. I think the whole crowd, bar a very very few, are all self-serving party following sheep who are an absolute disgrace to their profession. "Mother of Democracy," oh please, you've got to be joking. They might have given democracy to the world but they forgot to keep some back for themselves.
		
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Please dont credit the Remainers for 'winning'.  One of the worst outcomes for this country 2 years ago was that it split the country between the camps.   Now this is reflecting in this debate -  apparently Leavers 'lost' while Remain 'have done a fantastic job' and 'won'.  I think collectively we have lost. Leave lost because they could not drag UK out of the EU, Remain lost because we still dont have a deal.  Unfortnatley, this is NOT a binary choice as the reality is that we need the EU as much as they need us.  The UK needs NI to be part of the UK and it has a land border which does not want a hard border etc etc.


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2018)

I watched most of yesterday afternoons Parliament goings on and frankly am appalled at the people who we voted in across the UK to represent us!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I watched most of yesterday afternoons Parliament goings on and frankly am appalled at the people who we voted in across the UK to represent us!
		
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I suppose you know what to do when the next election is called in a couple of days/weeks/months/years, who knows anymore.  I'm hoping that most of the current lot go away now as I can't help thinking there are some decent politicians in both of the main parties who will be a bit more collaborative and forward looking.  

And whilst I know the tradition is a massive part of the appeal of this to some, I'm beginning to look at some of the rules and behaviours in parliament and thinking, really, in 2018 this is still a thing?  PMQs for example is just people grandstanding, people toadying up to their leader, people being deliberately awkward, people trying to score points with petty arguments and questions and most of them generally behaving like children. I mean we all know that's how golf forums operate, but in parliament???


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 11, 2018)

Sadly I fear the whole EU Brexit arguement has been nothing more than a personal crusade by certain MP's (on both sides to a degree) to better and further their standing amongst their core party supporters. It's never been about whats really best for the country and Union as a whole.
Valuable time has been wasted over this instead of focusing on things that really need time. We are a laughing stock for the whole World and have even managed to make Trump look organised and rational.

The whole HoC should all be ashamed for the way it's all gone and the way they've carried on, they are an embarressment to us all.


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## jp5 (Dec 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I think Remain have done a fantastic job of splitting the Leave vote into a number of facets
		
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That's not Remain that's done that - just the nature of the Brexit lot. You'd struggle to find consensus among any of the leading Leave politicians as to what they want, which is why two and half years later we're no closer to a resolution.

Should have decided on an alternative first and then had a vote on that vs. remain - at least there would have been a mandate for a particular brexit in that case.


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## oxymoron (Dec 11, 2018)

Watching channel 4 news last night i got a little unnerved when they were interviewing an Irish lady (i think she was some sort of deputy minister ) and someone from the green party and what struck me was they talked of the "political classes " and the UK being a "rogue state !" 
What the hell does that mean ? By the use of the term  political classes i thought , rightly or wrongly they seemed to say the man on the street was not able to determine their path in life and the politicians know whats best for us . 
And as for rogue state , well i am flummoxed,  are we a nation or part of a European superstate ?  Listening to the 2 of them it was almost as if we were a naughty child who needs to be brought in to line .

This i think is why we need to leave this insidious organisation before it indeed does morph in to one big United States of Europe without the citizens having any say in how we are governed .

If it had stopped as just being a trading block (the EEC)  then all well and good but it has gone too far for me


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## HughJars (Dec 11, 2018)

chrisd said:



			I watched most of yesterday afternoons Parliament goings on and frankly am appalled at the people who we voted in across the UK to represent us!
		
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I had a day off, and watched or listened on radio to a helluva lot. Joanna Cherry in particular was an absolute star, as was Kirsty Blackman, and it has to be admitted, John Bercow.  What was rather stark, were the "leave" Tories who had nothing to say but noise, I thought my MP was one of the lowest, "yes this is rubbish, but if it was Labour in charge it'd be worse" - superb Mr Andrew Bowie, vying for the Dorries/Redwood/Thomson/Hair as the biggest gluepot at Westminster


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## Sweep (Dec 11, 2018)

Whilst I donâ€™t disagree with the comments on here this morning regarding our disgust towards parliament and the way they have handled this, in the cold light of day we are actually where we were right at the start. There is an impasse. We have stalemate. Mainly because both sides have been negotiating disingenuously. The EU from the point of protecting and maintaining their project, the UK from the point of not really wanting to go and trying to make the best fudge out of it. This is not what either side should have been doing and we are where we are as a result.
The situation, albeit of the UK governments own making by chasing a deal no-one was ever going to accept, is not helped by big-wigs in the EU reverting to their intransigence position by saying things like â€œso now  you want to  renegotiate your own proposalâ€ and â€œthere is no room for renegotiationâ€ before Mrs May has even arrived for a chat. This is not how you arrive at a deal that works for both parties. Itâ€™s also arrogant.

So, as we are back to where we started I believe Mrs Mayâ€™s only option is to do what she and the UK negotiators should have done in the first place. Inform the EU to find a deal or we will have to leave in 3 months time with no deal. As things stand, that is actually the truth of the matter. As regrettable as this may be Mrs May would only be carrying out the result of the referendum. This is her fall back position. In truth this was always the position from the start. We were just too soft and diplomatic to put it that way, but time has now run out. She would only be doing what the EU have done all along and batted it back to the other side. Because the EU big wig was right in one sense. It was our proposal. We are the only ones who seem to have made any proposals.
The EU would then have a choice. If they choose to let us go with no deal then we would know what the position was all along. More likely, with such a big trade deficit and 39billion on the table they would renegotiate and quick.
This should all have happened two years ago of course, but we are where we are and it seems right now this is the only option left for the PM.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Whilst I donâ€™t disagree with the comments on here this morning regarding our disgust towards parliament and the way they have handled this, in the cold light of day we are actually where we were right at the start. There is an impasse. We have stalemate. Mainly because both sides have been negotiating disingenuously. The EU from the point of protecting and maintaining their project, the UK from the point of not really wanting to go and trying to make the best fudge out of it. This is not what either side should have been doing and we are where we are as a result.
The situation, albeit of the UK governments own making by chasing a deal no-one was ever going to accept, is not helped by big-wigs in the EU reverting to their intransigence position by saying things like â€œso now  you want to  renegotiate your own proposalâ€ and â€œthere is no room for renegotiationâ€ before Mrs May has even arrived for a chat. This is not how you arrive at a deal that works for both parties. Itâ€™s also arrogant.

So, as we are back to where we started I believe Mrs Mayâ€™s only option is to do what she and the UK negotiators should have done in the first place. Inform the EU to find a deal or we will have to leave in 3 months time with no deal. As things stand, that is actually the truth of the matter. As regrettable as this may be Mrs May would only be carrying out the result of the referendum. This is her fall back position. In truth this was always the position from the start. We were just too soft and diplomatic to put it that way, but time has now run out. She would only be doing what the EU have done all along and batted it back to the other side. Because the EU big wig was right in one sense. It was our proposal. We are the only ones who seem to have made any proposals.
The EU would then have a choice. If they choose to let us go with no deal then we would know what the position was all along. More likely, with such a big trade deficit and 39billion on the table they would renegotiate and quick.
This should all have happened two years ago of course, but we are where we are and it seems right now this is the only option left for the PM.
		
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Can I ask a genuine question to you and all those that voted leave?
Did you want a â€œno dealâ€ scenario when you voted leave?
Or
Did you want some sort of â€œdealâ€ when you voted leave?


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## oxymoron (Dec 11, 2018)

I think the negotiations should have been a cross party thing , then party politics could (should ) have been kept out and we could have concentrated on what's best for the country and not for a particular party .
From here i think there is too much self serving going on in this and the electorate would do good to remember this come the next election .Surely its time to put country before party .


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## IanM (Dec 11, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Can I ask a genuine question to you and all those that voted leave?
Did you want a â€œno dealâ€ scenario when you voted leave?
Or
Did you want some sort of â€œdealâ€ when you voted leave?
		
Click to expand...

No such thing as "no deal." Do you mean WTO rules?   

Answering your question, I expected the Governement to "bother" negotiating something beyond WTO, esp as all the EU folk who export to us, actually need it more!  (German cars, French wine, fishing rights etc)  But of course it became clear quite quickly that the _Remain Cabinet_ have followed a strategy of delay and soft-ball in order to get us to where we are.  i.e Sufficient stalemate and fear to ensure a Remain win in 2nd Referendum.  

I've been clear on this since the delay in invoking Article 50.  I may be proved wrong and we leave without a deal, but I would be shocked.  The EU have no need to "negotiate" as 
a) Mrs May isnt actually trying to do a deal that will keep Leavers or Remainers happy, and 
b) The EU needs to sock it to the UK to stop others going!!  (Don't underestimate the level of EU scepticism in other countries - I recently spent 2 years working with French Unions and Workers Councils...an eye opener!  )

Either way... don't excuse "leaving the EU" with the shambles the Tories are making of it!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Sadly I fear the whole EU Brexit arguement has been nothing more than a personal crusade by certain MP's (on both sides to a degree) to better and further their standing amongst their core party supporters. It's never been about whats really best for the country and Union as a whole.
Valuable time has been wasted over this instead of focusing on things that really need time. We are a laughing stock for the whole World and have even managed to make Trump look organised and rational.

The whole HoC should all be ashamed for the way it's all gone and the way they've carried on, they are an embarressment to us all.
		
Click to expand...

Nail on the head.


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## Sweep (Dec 11, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Can I ask a genuine question to you and all those that voted leave?
Did you want a â€œno dealâ€ scenario when you voted leave?
Or
Did you want some sort of â€œdealâ€ when you voted leave?
		
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Good question.
As a reluctant leaver I wanted the best deal we could arrive at for both sides in terms of trade but accepted that we had to be prepared to leave with no deal. I never believed we could have our cake and eat it and never believed that no deal would be catastrophic. 
If the EU was still a trading deal I wouldnâ€™t have voted to leave, but sadly itâ€™s much more than that. It needs reform but incapable of it. I didnâ€™t believe the trade deal was worth all what I see as the bad stuff that comes with EU membership and so voted to leave.
I believed it was in both sides best interests to do a deal on trade and I was hopeful this would happen, but I wanted to leave even if it didnâ€™t. I am disappointed that all we have talked about so far is anything but trade.

Like most I think, my view hasnâ€™t changed.


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## User62651 (Dec 11, 2018)

Highlight of yesterday was the Labour MP seeing Bercow looking away, makes a beeline for the despatch box, grabs the mace like it was a schoolboy dare, walks boldly off taking verbal pelters then thinking "cripes what do I do now? Ok you can have it back then". Tory ladies on left having a bit of a snigger. Bit pointless as a means of protest isn't it?

Stop that Man.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 11, 2018)

I have no inclination anymore to even find out what is what?

What advantages do we get from staying or leaving? Why is Europe so against us leaving?

I went for a deep tissue massage last week and I didn't get the usual person, I got an eastern European female who explained to me that she and her fellow workers were getting the blame for Britain wanting to leave the EU. She gave my back and shoulders one hell of a pounding and I don't mind admitting I cried out when she attacked my left calf. I was in agony for about two days but boy I feel good now. Will be asking for her again.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Whilst I donâ€™t disagree with the comments on here this morning regarding our disgust towards parliament and the way they have handled this, in the cold light of day we are actually where we were right at the start. There is an impasse. We have stalemate. *Mainly because both sides have been negotiating disingenuously. The EU from the point of protecting and maintaining their projec*t, the UK from the point of not really wanting to go and trying to make the best fudge out of it. This is not what either side should have been doing and we are where we are as a result.
The situation, albeit of the UK governments own making by chasing a deal no-one was ever going to accept, is not helped by big-wigs in the EU reverting to their intransigence position by saying things like â€œso now  you want to  renegotiate your own proposalâ€ and â€œthere is no room for renegotiationâ€ before Mrs May has even arrived for a chat. This is not how you arrive at a deal that works for both parties. Itâ€™s also arrogant.

So, as we are back to where we started I believe Mrs Mayâ€™s only option is to do what she and the UK negotiators should have done in the first place. Inform the EU to find a deal or we will have to leave in 3 months time with no deal. As things stand, that is actually the truth of the matter. As regrettable as this may be Mrs May would only be carrying out the result of the referendum. This is her fall back position. In truth this was always the position from the start. We were just too soft and diplomatic to put it that way, but time has now run out. She would only be doing what the EU have done all along and batted it back to the other side. Because the EU big wig was right in one sense. It was our proposal. We are the only ones who seem to have made any proposals.
The EU would then have a choice. If they choose to let us go with no deal then we would know what the position was all along. More likely, with such a big trade deficit and 39billion on the table they would renegotiate and quick.
This should all have happened two years ago of course, but we are where we are and it seems right now this is the only option left for the PM.
		
Click to expand...

I'm just genuinely curious over why this is disingenuous?  It was crystal clear to anyone that this is what they would do and no one can show shock or surprise or have expected them to do anything differently. They obviously want to ensure no one else follows our lead (and to be honest I think we have done that for them anyway with the balls up we are making of it). Yes some may feel that this is difficult to deal with but I do not see why this is disingenuous of them or some kind of blame is being apportioned to them for doing this, it is one of the very few sure fire things that we knew would happen.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Good question.
As a reluctant leaver I wanted the best deal we could arrive at for both sides in terms of trade but accepted that we had to be prepared to leave with no deal. I never believed we could have our cake and eat it and never believed that no deal would be catastrophic.
If the EU was still a trading deal I wouldnâ€™t have voted to leave, but sadly itâ€™s much more than that. It needs reform but incapable of it. I didnâ€™t believe the trade deal was worth all what I see as the bad stuff that comes with EU membership and so voted to leave.
I believed it was in both sides best interests to do a deal on trade and I was hopeful this would happen, but I wanted to leave even if it didnâ€™t. I am disappointed that all we have talked about so far is anything but trade.

Like most I think, my view hasnâ€™t changed.
		
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Cheers, the reason for asking was prompted by yesterdayâ€™s embarrassment in the HoC, listening and watching I really believe there are Tory MPâ€™s who want a No Deal and nothing else and I canâ€™t see them voting for any other alternative.
To me like youâ€™ve said, we have to be prepared for No Deal, but it canâ€™t and couldnâ€™t of been what the majority actually expected.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 11, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Highlight of yesterday was the Labour MP seeing Bercow looking away, makes a beeline for the despatch box, grabs the mace like it was a schoolboy dare, walks boldly off taking verbal pelters then thinking "cripes what do I do now? Ok you can have it back then". Tory ladies on left having a bit of a snigger. Bit pointless as a means of protest isn't it?

Stop that Man.







Click to expand...

Fairly certain it was pre-planned as there was a member of staff ready and waiting to take it off his hands...


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## User62651 (Dec 11, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Fairly certain it was pre-planned as there was a member of staff ready and waiting to take it off his hands...
		
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They wouldn't allow that to go off if they knew, pre-planned by the culprit maybe. Only been done a handful of times I think.
He should have held it aloft and roared for better effect.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Fairly certain it was pre-planned as there was a member of staff ready and waiting to take it off his hands...
		
Click to expand...

My mate is one of the Staff, 2 are always in that area.


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## Sweep (Dec 11, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm just genuinely curious over why this is disingenuous?  It was crystal clear to anyone that this is what they would do and no one can show shock or surprise or have expected them to do anything differently. They obviously want to ensure no one else follows our lead (and to be honest I think we have done that for them anyway with the balls up we are making of it). Yes some may feel that this is difficult to deal with but I do not see why this is disingenuous of them or some kind of blame is being apportioned to them for doing this, it is one of the very few sure fire things that we knew would happen.
		
Click to expand...

If I was from another EU country and therefore an â€œinnocent bystanderâ€ to all this, I would want the EU to do the best deal for me and the other 26 nations, not what was good for the EU project. I would expect my union government to put me and the other 26 nations first. That is what a government should do. Not sideline us in favour of a grand plan.
That is why itâ€™s disingenuous. I agree it was only to be expected because this is the way the EU works. It has other priorities than its people, but because we could expect it doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s right.


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## Sweep (Dec 11, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			They wouldn't allow that to go off if they knew, pre-planned by the culprit maybe. Only been done a handful of times I think.
He should have held it aloft and roared for better effect.

Click to expand...

Apparently after being barred for the day, he and his mates went off to the pub to celebrate. Most strange.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 11, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Can I ask a genuine question to you and all those that voted leave?
Did you want a â€œno dealâ€ scenario when you voted leave?
Or
Did you want some sort of â€œdealâ€ when you voted leave?
		
Click to expand...

I ideally wanted to leave on good terms Paul, preferably with a deal that suited both sides. I donâ€™t have anything against any Europeans personally but I have a deep rooted suspicion of the EU and the way it does business, and I have a nasty feeling that when the whole house of cards does come tumbling down we will suffer a lot more financially than we might if we get out. If no deal was the best deal Iâ€™d take it, but a negotiated deal so that the health benefits were kept and our legal immigrants on whom we rely and who contribute to the fabric of our society knew they were welcome and valued was my preference.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 11, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Apparently after being barred for the day, he and his mates went off to the pub to celebrate. Most strange.
		
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Good excuse to get away from May's constant repetitive whining.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 11, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Cheers, the reason for asking was prompted by yesterdayâ€™s embarrassment in the HoC, listening and watching I really believe there are Tory MPâ€™s who want a No Deal and nothing else and I canâ€™t see them voting for any other alternative.
To me like youâ€™ve said, we have to be prepared for No Deal, but it canâ€™t and couldnâ€™t of been what the majority actually expected.
		
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I think the DUP and SNP would both be delighted with a cliff edge Brexit, the funny part is for two entirely different reasons.


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## HughJars (Dec 11, 2018)

Sweep said:



			If I was from another EU country and therefore an â€œinnocent bystanderâ€ to all this, I would want the EU to do the best deal for me and the other 26 nations, not what was good for the EU project. I would expect my union government to put me and the other 26 nations first. That is what a government should do. Not sideline us in favour of a grand plan.
That is why itâ€™s disingenuous. I agree it was only to be expected because this is the way the EU works. It has other priorities than its people, but because we could expect it doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s right.
		
Click to expand...

But that's what they are doing, by refusing to (largely) dilute FoM etc, they are protecting the remaining citizens of the EU. There's no ulterior motive there, the leavers were well warned that the EU would look after the EU first and foremost because why on earth wouldn;t they. You can;t then blame them for doing exactly that.


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## HughJars (Dec 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the DUP and SNP would both be delighted with a cliff edge Brexit, the funny part is for two entirely different reasons.

Click to expand...

I admit to finding this partl rather amusing

The SNP want Brexit to fail because they've always backed the EU, but at the least they want the favourable terms that have been given to NI if it does go ahead, because they haven't been listened to in the slightest so far, unlike.....

The DUP, who've had the PMs ear throughout, now want brexit to fail because they **have** been given favourable terms which isn't what they wanted at all


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## HughJars (Dec 11, 2018)

Oh christ, what an embarrassment, can't get out of her own car  



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072463780007809024


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 11, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Oh christ, what an embarrassment, can't get out of her own car  



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072463780007809024

Click to expand...

It's an EU car. No matter how hard you try it's impossible to actually get out of it.


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## Dando (Dec 11, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's an EU car. No matter how hard you try it's impossible to actually get out of it.
		
Click to expand...

did she have to pay a large fee before they tried to open the door


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 11, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Oh christ, what an embarrassment, can't get out of her own car  



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072463780007809024

Click to expand...

Is that really the level the news has got to now and you are using it as a judgement against her because a car lock didnâ€™t work 

This is the exact sort of thing people are sick off now - people just looking for any small reason to snipe away and itâ€™s fuelled even more by the gutter media 

Sky News were pathetic to tweet about it and you were even more so to jump on it and then point fingers at her for it


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## User62651 (Dec 11, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that really the level the news has got to now and you are using it as a judgement against her because a car lock didnâ€™t work

This is the exact sort of thing people are sick off now - people just looking for any small reason to snipe away and itâ€™s fuelled even more by the gutter media

Sky News were pathetic to tweet about it and you were even more so to jump on it and then point fingers at her for it
		
Click to expand...

Come on LP, it is a little funny given the general enormity of the circumstances. Country's futures are at stake and someone's put the child locks on. If you can't laugh what can you do?


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## jp5 (Dec 11, 2018)

It appears that Theresa May told the EU she was pulling the vote before she told her cabinet. Not a good look if true.


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## HughJars (Dec 11, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is that really the level the news has got to now and you are using it as a judgement against her because a car lock didnâ€™t work

This is the exact sort of thing people are sick off now - people just looking for any small reason to snipe away and itâ€™s fuelled even more by the gutter media

Sky News were pathetic to tweet about it and you were even more so to jump on it and then point fingers at her for it
		
Click to expand...

Remember that time Neil Kinnock lost an election for falling into the breakers? Remember when Milliband couldn;t eat a bacon sandwich properly? Aye, that


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2018)

jp5 said:



			It appears that Theresa May told the EU she was pulling the vote before she told her cabinet. Not a good look if true.
		
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Probably because she knew the minute she told her cabinet it would be leaked within seconds to the media.


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## Foxholer (Dec 11, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Democracy in its purest form is, a) a proposition is raised, b) the proposition is voted on, c) the result is enacted. Those are the 3 steps needed to satisfy the process of democracy.

What you're are proposing isn't democratic but it is sensible, in its purest form. For example, "I think we should drive off a cliff" is the proposition. "We've voted to agree to drive off the cliff" is the result of the vote. And then the lemmings drive off the cliff. Democracy in its purest form, and just plain stupid.

If there is a consensus not to drive off the cliff by the representative government, because driving off the cliff is stupid, then staying where you are is the sensible thing to do. Its not democratic in the purest sense of democracy, i.e. the closed loop of raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result. But it is perfectly legal in a representative democracy.

I'd argue its not wise to not follow the decision of the electorate in so much as would they vote for you again if you ignored the result of a vote? And the 'get-out' in this instance is for the Tory government to pass the buck, albeit with the following spin. "We feel that so much has changed in the last 2 years we want you to reassure us that we are following the right path." And a second vote could be taken. Splitting hairs, and undemocratic but it might be the wisest thing for the Tory party to do, if only for its own 'health.'
		
Click to expand...

This is all B/S!

In the UK version of Democracy, nothing the Government is doing is actually wrong! 

It may be immoral or any number of other descriptions! But it's certainly not un-Democratic!

And remember that (the UK version of) Democracy has actually already been pretty well served through the (UK) Court syetem in this matter!

But none of the above helps the impasse that May has arrived at! To me, there are 4 options; Accept this deal; Renegotiate; Leave with 'No Deal'; Have another referendum in order to reverse the result of the initial one. The first 3 all have benefits and disadvantages. The last option strikes me as entirely undemocratic, though it could actually be fudged by the question!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 11, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Why is Europe so against us leaving?
		
Click to expand...

2 Reasons I would say. 

First of all, out of the 28 members only about 4 put in more than they take out. We are one of those. If we leave then either the other 3 put more in or the 'takers' have less to take. That doesn't appeal to any of the remaining 27.

Secondly, the worry is that if the UK leaves and does well it will encourage other countries who are not enamoured with the EU to leave. There are a number of disgruntled countries within the EU but none have made the big step that the UK did. People have talked up the calamity of leaving the EU, sailing off the end of a flat earth......, but what if it is not a calamity? Others may go, the domino effect, and the whole organisation collapses bit by bit.


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## Sweep (Dec 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good excuse to get away from May's constant repetitive whining.
		
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If you think about it, he picked up the Mace - thereby preventing Parliament from voting - in protest about Parliament not voting. What a plonker.


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## Sweep (Dec 11, 2018)

HughJars said:



			But that's what they are doing, by refusing to (largely) dilute FoM etc, they are protecting the remaining citizens of the EU. There's no ulterior motive there, the leavers were well warned that the EU would look after the EU first and foremost because why on earth wouldn;t they. You can;t then blame them for doing exactly that.
		
Click to expand...

So would it benefit ordinary citizens of the EU for the UK to leave without a deal?


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## Sweep (Dec 11, 2018)

Only Parliament could have a meaningless debate on the meaningful vote when there isnâ€™t going to be a vote. And that is what they are doing right now.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2018)

Sweep said:



			So would it benefit ordinary citizens of the EU for the UK to leave without a deal?
		
Click to expand...

Not really, but arguably not as much as it will not benefit the UK citizens, and especially the vulnerable ones, of this country. Well most of them anyway, I'm sure the disaster capitalists and partners in fund management firms who have a personal wealth, along with his wife, of around 100 million will be OK.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not really, but arguably not as much as it will not benefit the UK citizens, and especially the vulnerable ones, of this country. Well most of them anyway, I'm sure the disaster capitalists and partners in fund management firms who have a personal wealth, along with his wife, of around 100 million will be OK. 

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How will people here manage without those EU tariffs pushing up prices on world goods outside the EU. Let them eat fish.


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## Sweep (Dec 11, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not really, but arguably not as much as it will not benefit the UK citizens, and especially the vulnerable ones, of this country. Well most of them anyway, I'm sure the disaster capitalists and partners in fund management firms who have a personal wealth, along with his wife, of around 100 million will be OK. 

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Precisely, so the EU negotiating position of protecting the EU project first and getting a good deal second is not good for the very people they govern.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 11, 2018)

Sweep said:



			If you think about it, he picked up the Mace - thereby preventing Parliament from voting - in protest about Parliament not voting. What a plonker.
		
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Catch Mhari McKay's speech, its a humdinger about our modern Parliament procedures â€¦.. 'where a guy with a sword is chasing a guy with a mace'.
Classy stuff from the youngest ever MP.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 11, 2018)

In theory we can dump the fools in Westminster but those in Brussels are untouchable...


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Catch *Mhari McKay's* speech, its a humdinger about our modern Parliament procedures â€¦.. 'where a guy with a sword is chasing a guy with a mace'.
Classy stuff from the youngest ever MP.
		
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I'm going to hazard a guess that you meant Mhari Black as when I googled Mhari MaKay it came up with a Scottish professional golfer.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 11, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm going to hazard a guess that you meant Mhari Black as when I googled Mhari MaKay it came up with a Scottish professional golfer.
		
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Did she have anything to say about Brexit? Maybe she is the one with the solution? Forget politicians, give Mhari Makay a go


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 11, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Precisely, so the EU negotiating position of protecting the EU project first and getting a good deal second is not good for the very people they govern.
		
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Sorry but I'm struggling to follow the logic here.  Are you saying that as a no deal is not the best outcome for the EU citizens they should give us a lot of concessions to avoid it?  Even though if they do they know that will potentially be bad for the EU as an organisation/project/union or whatever we are calling it, as it will set a precedent for other countries that may want to leave?


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 11, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Did she have anything to say about Brexit? Maybe she is the one with the solution? Forget politicians, give Mhari Makay a go 

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I'm not sure that's going to work. She played on the European Tour so is bound to be a Remainer. And we've seen what happens if you put a Remainer in charge of Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Catch Mhari McKay's speech, its a humdinger about our modern Parliament procedures â€¦.. 'where a guy with a sword is chasing a guy with a mace'.
Classy stuff from the youngest ever MP.
		
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Inspirational ! ðŸ˜  Almost like grown men in skirts throwing telegraph poles around. ðŸ‘


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## drdel (Dec 11, 2018)

Any of you who have had experience of being involved with international or EU projects will have some idea of the poison chalice May carries. Not only does she have the two UK sides of Remainers and Leavers but also divisions in government and opposition parties. Then she needs to negotiate with a powerless funky (Barnier) on behalf of 27 who themselves are split into payers and takers.

Over the years I had to chair several 20+ nation projects and, dangerously, you assume everyone understand things in the same way. However the reality is that even basic stuff like translation is subject to fundamental errors caused by the very variable skills of translators and clerical support. I found it could take a couple of months for basic mistakes to be found and overcome between the member states. Another modern issue is the juvenile way many politicians in the EU and the UK take to Twitter and social media with silly two line quips taken extracted from a 2 hour meeting. how amazing a 2/3 hour meeting can be distilled so concisely!! Why the heck don't they just shut up until a joint statement is agreed and published: you'd never get a bunch of directors Twittering about company deals - if they did they could, quite rightly, be legally charged: yet these politicians run off at the mouth as soon as they see a microphone.

It seems to me that we lack fundamental negotiating skills on both sides. Perhaps if Tusk, Juncker, Verhofstad, Barnier and our UK politicians kept off twittering for 3 months and stopped whittering on and personal grandstanding there would be a chance of a pragmatic solution despite the intrinsic challenges of language and the differing ideals of the various factions.

Sadly I don't think that will happen and that usually means 'too many fingers in the pie = a total cockup and the result being something that actually nobody intended or wanted.

The Labour Party with the SNP and DUP probably have a secret plan that will astound us all: if they succeed in unseating the Tories

If it wasn't so serious it would be funny - make a good case study for a Management School on how to foul up.


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## Slime (Dec 11, 2018)

drdel said:



			Any of you who have had experience of being involved with international or EU projects will have some idea of the poison chalice May carries. Not only does she have the two UK sides of Remainers and Leavers but also divisions in government and opposition parties. Then she needs to negotiate with a powerless funky (Barnier) on behalf of 27 who themselves are split into payers and takers.

Over the years I had to chair several 20+ nation projects and, dangerously, you assume everyone understand things in the same way. However the reality is that even basic stuff like translation is subject to fundamental errors caused by the very variable skills of translators and clerical support. I found it could take a couple of months for basic mistakes to be found and overcome between the member states. Another modern issue is the juvenile way many politicians in the EU and the UK take to Twitter and social media with silly two line quips taken extracted from a 2 hour meeting. how amazing a 2/3 hour meeting can be distilled so concisely!! Why the heck don't they just shut up until a joint statement is agreed and published: you'd never get a bunch of directors Twittering about company deals - if they did they could, quite rightly, be legally charged: yet these politicians run off at the mouth as soon as they see a microphone.

It seems to me that we lack fundamental negotiating skills on both sides. Perhaps if Tusk, Juncker, Verhofstad, Barnier and our UK politicians kept off twittering for 3 months and stopped whittering on and personal grandstanding there would be a chance of a pragmatic solution despite the intrinsic challenges of language and the differing ideals of the various factions.

Sadly I don't think that will happen and that usually means 'too many fingers in the pie = a total cockup and the result being something that actually nobody intended or wanted.

The Labour Party with the SNP and DUP probably have a secret plan that will astound us all: if they succeed in unseating the Tories

If it wasn't so serious it would be funny - make a good case study for a Management School on how to foul up.
		
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That appears to be a very educated and well constructed and unbiased post.
I'll give May 10 out of 10 for sticking at it with so many knives being constantly plunged into her back.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2018)

drdel said:



			Any of you who have had experience of being involved with international or EU projects will have some idea of the poison chalice May carries. Not only does she have the two UK sides of Remainers and Leavers but also divisions in government and opposition parties. Then she needs to negotiate with a powerless funky (Barnier) on behalf of 27 who themselves are split into payers and takers.

Over the years I had to chair several 20+ nation projects and, dangerously, you assume everyone understand things in the same way. However the reality is that even basic stuff like translation is subject to fundamental errors caused by the very variable skills of translators and clerical support. I found it could take a couple of months for basic mistakes to be found and overcome between the member states. Another modern issue is the juvenile way many politicians in the EU and the UK take to Twitter and social media with silly two line quips taken extracted from a 2 hour meeting. how amazing a 2/3 hour meeting can be distilled so concisely!! Why the heck don't they just shut up until a joint statement is agreed and published: you'd never get a bunch of directors Twittering about company deals - if they did they could, quite rightly, be legally charged: yet these politicians run off at the mouth as soon as they see a microphone.

It seems to me that we lack fundamental negotiating skills on both sides. Perhaps if Tusk, Juncker, Verhofstad, Barnier and our UK politicians kept off twittering for 3 months and stopped whittering on and personal grandstanding there would be a chance of a pragmatic solution despite the intrinsic challenges of language and the differing ideals of the various factions.

Sadly I don't think that will happen and that usually means 'too many fingers in the pie = a total cockup and the result being something that actually nobody intended or wanted.

The Labour Party with the SNP and DUP probably have a secret plan that will astound us all: if they succeed in unseating the Tories

If it wasn't so serious it would be funny - make a good case study for a Management School on how to foul up.
		
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I can only compare the current negotations to someone sitting down with a car salesman and saying "Before I start haggling I want you to understand that I will be buying this car off you at the full price"


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 11, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I can only compare the current negotations to a Husband and Wife sitting down with a car salesman and the Wife saying "Before my Husband opens his mouth I want you to understand that we will be buying this car off you at the full price"
		
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I thought our negotiating position was to drop our trousers, bend over the table and ask them not to spank us too hard.


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## USER1999 (Dec 11, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			I thought our negotiating position was to drop our trousers, bend over the table and ask them not to spank us too hard.
		
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I think we would be happy with a spanking, its the strap on accessories we need to worry about.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			I think we would be happy with a spanking, its the strap on accessories we need to worry about.
		
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Garmin watch ?


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## USER1999 (Dec 11, 2018)

More like Garmin truswing.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			More like Garmin truswing.
		
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Garmin Backstop


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 11, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm going to hazard a guess that you meant Mhari Black as when I googled Mhari MaKay it came up with a Scottish professional golfer.
		
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Aye Senior moment 


ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure that's going to work. She played on the European Tour so is bound to be a Remainer. And we've seen what happens if you put a Remainer in charge of Brexit.
		
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...my daughter actually played against Mhari McKay in the British girls....lost at the 19th.
Mhari actually moved on to the American tour and had quite a few successful years, so definitely a leaver.


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## GreiginFife (Dec 11, 2018)

Disturbing stuff.


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## Sweep (Dec 12, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sorry but I'm struggling to follow the logic here.  Are you saying that as a no deal is not the best outcome for the EU citizens they should give us a lot of concessions to avoid it?  Even though if they do they know that will potentially be bad for the EU as an organisation/project/union or whatever we are calling it, as it will set a precedent for other countries that may want to leave?
		
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No, thats not at all what I am saying.
The EU has negotiated primarily from a point of trying the protect their project, while they should be trying to get the best deal for the EU and primarily the people of the EU. They have put the EU project first. Any government that puts its project, its grand plan before the people it represents is not governing for its electorate, itâ€™s real reason for being.
In the case of the EU of course itâ€™s stretching a point to call the people their electorate as those calling the tune arenâ€™t directly elected, but you get my point. Furthermore their grand plan is often not communicated to their people until it absolutely has to be. Remember we signed up for a trade deal when federalism was always planned. Remember we were told an EU army was nonsense before the referendum, and yet now...
Remember all the treaties that have to be modified, rewritten or clarified to get through because some reject them. You might call it progress. Iâ€™d say the people of those countries were surprised by these treaties and didnâ€™t like the look of them. And note, they are always narrowly rejected or accepted. They always cause division. When they get to it, the EU army one is going to be a corker - if they let the people vote on it.

Anyway, I digress. My point is that this is typical EU. Their project is more important to them than their people they are supposed to represent. They feel they must protect it at all costs. Now I am willing to accept that in your view protecting the project is protecting the people. I argue that is not necessarily the case. Many, many jobs in the EU rely on trade with the UK. If you worked in maybe the tourist trade in Spain, or the BMW factory where 1/7th of its produce comes here. What if your job and your families financial well-being depended on the EU cutting a good deal with the UK? Would you still be saying that the EU should put their project first? What if there is no deal? How likely is it you going to get another job, with unemployment at high levels? I know the cause of young people is close to your heart. What chances of another job when youth unemployment is at ridiculous levels?
Both parties should accept the UK is leaving and be negotiating for the best outcome for all, but that is not what is happening. I fully accept the EU should not let the UK have its cake and eat it and we shouldnâ€™t expect that. But there is a whole lot of ground between the two points and as yet none of this has been explored.


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## DRW (Dec 12, 2018)

Never liked that people who wanted to remain in the EU were in charge of the deal and that a lot of the people who wanted to leave have just run away. Think they realised it was a right poison chalice job and I bet they will reappear after the deal is done.

After thinking about it, I think it is now a must that once the 'deal' has been finalised we the public have the final say, about stay in the EU or come out with No deal(as any deal agreed with never be good enough). Still not sure if I would change my vote from last time or not, as not liked what I have seen, also I think the turn out would be much higher which would be a good thing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

DRW said:



			Never liked that people who wanted to remain in the EU were in charge of the deal and* that a lot of the people who wanted to leave have just run away. Think they realised it was a right poison chalice job and I bet they will reappear after the deal is done.*

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I don't necessarily agree with this. Boris wanted to be leader but pulled out when he was told he didn't have enough MP's to back him. Gove stayed in the race and was mullered. Davies, Johnson et al resigned from their positions over time because May was not giving them the Brexit they wanted. As part of the cabinet they have to stand with May and defend her policy. When they realised it was indefensable to them they left. They would argue that they tried to change the deal but TM would not have it. Davies and Raab were largely bypassed by TM and her civil servants by all account. By leaving the cabinet they can speak freely about the deal and the problems with it.

I'm no fan of any of the above but if they are not allowed to push for the Brexit that they fought for then I am not sure that they can stay by the deal TM made with any credibility.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't necessarily agree with this. Boris wanted to be leader but pulled out when he was told he didn't have enough MP's to back him. Gove stayed in the race and was mullered. Davies, Johnson et al resigned from their positions over time because May was not giving them the Brexit they wanted. As part of the cabinet they have to stand with May and defend her policy. When they realised it was indefensable to them they left. They would argue that they tried to change the deal but TM would not have it. Davies and Raab were largely bypassed by TM and her civil servants by all account. By leaving the cabinet they can speak freely about the deal and the problems with it.

I'm no fan of any of the above but if they are not allowed to push for the Brexit that they fought for then I am not sure that they can stay by the deal TM made with any credibility.
		
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But are they behaving that way for their own agenda or the good of the Country?
Because every politician from every possible political persuasion with any view on the EU are assuring us THEY have the Countries best interest at heart.
So either they are lying or whatever and with anybody the Country will be fine!


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## IanM (Dec 12, 2018)

May defeated... DUP withdraw support....general election.....Corbyn PM....Brexit cancelled.   As predicted at the start of the original thread. but means it would be achieved by wasnt clear.   May retires with handsome "gratuity" from Brussels.  (remember how Ted Heath could suddenly afford Morning Cloud and the house by the Cathedral in Salisbury!  ) 

Corbyn PM... oh dear.  A former colleague voted Remain in the Ref as he predicted the instability caused would result in the evil git in No 10.    This will make the last 2 years look like a Sunday School outing!


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## DRW (Dec 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't necessarily agree with this. Boris wanted to be leader but pulled out when he was told he didn't have enough MP's to back him. Gove stayed in the race and was mullered. Davies, Johnson et al resigned from their positions over time because May was not giving them the Brexit they wanted. As part of the cabinet they have to stand with May and defend her policy. When they realised it was indefensable to them they left. They would argue that they tried to change the deal but TM would not have it. Davies and Raab were largely bypassed by TM and her civil servants by all account. By leaving the cabinet they can speak freely about the deal and the problems with it.

I'm no fan of any of the above but if they are not allowed to push for the Brexit that they fought for then I am not sure that they can stay by the deal TM made with any credibility.
		
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No I think they ran away and took the easy option out by pulling out or resigning and letting the wrong deal being done, especially  if they thought they could have done better for the UK. As no deal or remaining in the EU were always the most likely situations to unfold with a remainer leading the deal. TM should have gone as well as part of that process very early on. I am someone who mind was saying remain but heart was saying leave, so fairly natural but actually voted remain.

This is our country and they are damaging it now and certainly for the short/medium term. Have only seen businesses being adversely affected by this, with bigger businesses pulling funding from projects in the UK and certainly not any pluses as yet from a business point of view.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

Ultimately TM is the PM though and what she say goes. How long do you bang your head against a wall before you say enough is enough? She has shown quite clearly in recent weeks that she does not listen to what is being said to her.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			But are they behaving that way for their own agenda or the good of the Country?
Because every politician from every possible political persuasion with any view on the EU are assuring us THEY have the Countries best interest at heart.
So either they are lying or whatever and with anybody the Country will be fine!
		
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In their eyes they are doing the best for the country. Their agenda is right for the country as they see it. Lots of agenda's though, if there wasn't we would not have different political parties, candidates etc

I don't think any of them seek to deliberately cause damage.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ultimately TM is the PM though and what she say goes. How long do you bang your head against a wall before you say enough is enough? She has shown quite clearly in recent weeks that she does not listen to what is being said to her.
		
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I donâ€™t remember Thatcher being one to listen and do what others wanted, and the Torres have always lauded her for that approach.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I donâ€™t remember Thatcher being one to listen and do what others wanted, and the Torres have always lauded her for that approach.
		
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How did that end for her when she failed to listen over the Poll Tax?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think any of them seek to deliberately cause damage.
		
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Even if they know their actions will cause damage?


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## Sweep (Dec 12, 2018)

IanM said:



			May defeated... DUP withdraw support....general election.....Corbyn PM....Brexit cancelled.   As predicted at the start of the original thread. but means it would be achieved by wasnt clear.   May retires with handsome "gratuity" from Brussels.  (remember how Ted Heath could suddenly afford Morning Cloud and the house by the Cathedral in Salisbury!  )

Corbyn PM... oh dear.  A former colleague voted Remain in the Ref as he predicted the instability caused would result in the evil git in No 10.    This will make the last 2 years look like a Sunday School outing!
		
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I doubt very much the DUP will cause a GE. The last person they want to see in No.10 is Corbyn.
Whoever governs (apart from the Lib Demâ€™s and thatâ€™s not going to happen) has a big headache. They donâ€™t actually want to leave but are conflicted because they know they canâ€™t go against the referendum result. The honest truth is the mainstream political parties are now out of touch with the people they represent. That is actually why we are in this mess now.
So, whoever governs will try to fudge it, just like May tried to. 
For all their bleating, Labour has no realistic or workable policy on Brexit. For example, a Labour woman on TV this morning said that Labourâ€™s policy was not the Single Market or Customs Union but a new Customs Union and single market deal. Laughable.

Interestingly, the spin doctors might be taking a different view on this. The simplest thing to do (where there are no simple answers) would be to tell the EU we are off. Be the strong leader everyone wants. Be the hero. Watch them come running. You are a hero putting all those Johnny foreigners in their place. And if they donâ€™t or if we canâ€™t reach a deal, leave. After all, that is what the electorate told you to do. You are the torchbearer for democracy in one of the worlds great democracies. Then, make the most of the new opportunities. If you are successful you are brilliant. If not, itâ€™s hardly your fault. You were just doing what the people instructed. You have the best excuse in history for messing up. A free ride.
Far better than pretending to leave but fudging it or manipulating the situation so that Brexit doesnâ€™t happen at all. People see through that pretty quickly, as we have already found.


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## Sweep (Dec 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How did that end for her when she failed to listen over the Poll Tax?
		
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The Poll Tax is a very good analogy and has a lot of parallels to the Brexit situation today.
The Community Charge was included in the 1987 Conservative manifesto upon which they won the election. A whole series of demonstrations and riots, mainly organised by the militant tendency, caused it to be withdrawn. You could argue quite strongly that the protests went against the stated democratic will of the people. It was the protests that got it overturned, much like what is being attempted today albeit much more calmly... for now.


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## jp5 (Dec 12, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I doubt very much the DUP will cause a GE.
		
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I wouldn't be surprised given the noises coming from the DUP. Sounding pretty fed up with May and there has been courting with Corbyn.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 12, 2018)

pauldj42 said:



			Even if they know their actions will cause damage?
		
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They may believe that short term damage will bring long term gain, certainly in the case of Brexit for example. I'm not defending anyone who is out to cause genuine damage but if you listen to most politicians they believe their actions will improve the country. They may be deluded or flat out wrong but I do think most believe their actions are for the better.


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## IanM (Dec 12, 2018)

Just had an an email from my MP who thinks that the current exit agreement isnt ideal, but is worth having to stabilise the current situation.  It was clearly written before the no-confidence, so he doesnt give his opinion on that


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They may believe that short term damage will bring long term gain, certainly in the case of Brexit for example. I'm not defending anyone who is out to cause genuine damage but if you listen to most politicians they believe their actions will improve the country. They may be deluded or flat out wrong but I do think most believe their actions are for the better.
		
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Someone likened it to being on a runaway train(EU). Do you jump off now and risk hurting yourself, or do you stay on to the end with a risk of being killed?

A bit simplistic as it doesnâ€™t take into account the EU could switch tracks and be saved. Equally, how well you prepare to jump may have a bearing on how well you survive.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2018)

This no confidence vote really achieves nothing but kills time.
Unless the plan is to kill time and go for a hard brexit.. but who ever leads that one will go down in history. 
Will they replace TM? Has anyone stood up to lead the negotiations and the country?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2018)

Theres an easy way out of this current confusion on Brexit.  We hold a new referendum or peoples vote if you prefer.  Yes, I am actually advocating we do it but not in the way that is currently being muted, you know: the one where we ignore the last vote and try to overturn it, the undemocratic way.

The vote I suggest honours the last in out vote and simply finalises the decision making in a way parliament seem incapable of. The vote should be a two option vote.

1) Accept the current deal.
2) Leave without the  current deal.

If we accept the current deal then thats it,, we just go along with its precepts.
If we take option 2 then we make our preparations to leave in March but explain to the EU we would still like to make arrangements for our future relationship that hopefully would be harmonious and mutually beneficial.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2018)

Not sure why you would bother .. remain is better than the deal, no deal is more palatable for leave than the deal  those are the real options. The deal fails to satisfy both factions.
Is there opportunity to negotiate? No realistically the EU is not offering anything better than remain .. so no point kidding yourself it will be any other way.
Hence, remain or out no deal, only options available  ...


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## Reemul (Dec 12, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Not sure why you would bother .. remain is better than the deal, no deal is more palatable for leave than the deal  those are the real options. The deal fails to satisfy both factions.
Is there opportunity to negotiate? No realistically the EU is not offering anything better than remain .. so no point kidding yourself it will be any other way.
Hence, remain or out no deal, only options available  ...
		
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No you are wrong again, the post above you is correct. We have 2 choices the deal or no deal, let everyone pick what they would prefer and go with it. Not overly difficult is it but it won't bring in a remain which is what you still want even though you lost.

Remain is not an option how we leave is.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2018)

Reemul said:



			No you are wrong again, the post above you is correct. We have 2 choices the deal or no deal, let everyone pick what they would prefer and go with it. Not overly difficult is it but it won't bring in a remain which is what you still want even though you lost.

Remain is not an option how we leave is.
		
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Are you scared that remain is an option .. the original vote did not cover the details we have them now. Remember it was a close vote and some were making a protest, some thought it was a certain remain and did not vote.
Every time I read or hear this leave opinion I just think itâ€™s desperate and itâ€™s not giving the people their chance to decide. If you think itâ€™s a certainty you wouldnâ€™t be afraid of it.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Are you scared that remain is an option .. the original vote did not cover the details we have them now. Remember it was a close vote and some were making a protest, some thought it was a certain remain and did not vote.
Every time I read or hear this leave opinion I just think itâ€™s desperate and itâ€™s not giving the people their chance to decide. If you think itâ€™s a certainty you wouldnâ€™t be afraid of it.
		
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You seem afraid of the vote I suggested as it does not have an option to overturn the previous referendum.  Makes you seem the desperate one, someone who cannot be on the losing side, someone wno didnt get their own way.   Oh yes, take a .long look in the mirror.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem afraid of the vote I suggested as it does not have an option to overturn the previous referendum.  Makes you seem the desperate one, someone who cannot be on the losing side, someone wno did t get their own way.   *Oh yes, a snowflake.*

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Havenâ€™t you complained plenty of times on here when SILH or others have used cheap insults towards people who voted Leave yet here you are throwing cheap insults yourself - does that not make you as bad as SILH and a hypocrite?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Havenâ€™t you complained plenty of times on here when SILH or others have used cheap insults towards people who voted Leave yet here you are throwing cheap insults yourself - does that not make you as bad as SILH and a hypocrite?
		
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Yes, thats why after some reflection i changed it.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem afraid of the vote I suggested as it does not have an option to overturn the previous referendum.  Makes you seem the desperate one, someone who cannot be on the losing side, someone wno didnt get their own way.   Oh yes, take a .long look in the mirror.
		
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The vote you suggested offered nothing of value to the uk people ... if you think remain is unpalatable to masses the referendum will highlight it further and we can exit


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## Dando (Dec 12, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Are you scared that remain is an option .. the original vote did not cover the details we have them now. Remember it was a close vote and some were making a protest, some thought it was a certain remain and did not vote.
Every time I read or hear this leave opinion I just think itâ€™s desperate and itâ€™s not giving the people their chance to decide. If you think itâ€™s a certainty you wouldnâ€™t be afraid of it.
		
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Maybe if those who didnâ€™t vote got off their backsides/went out in the rain and voted then we wouldnâ€™t be leaving


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2018)

Dando said:



			Maybe if those who didnâ€™t vote got off their backsides/went out in the rain and voted then we wouldnâ€™t be leaving
		
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Indeed that is a fair sentiment, I understand regards voting for our politicians is pretty demoralising but this was an easy thing to vote on.. so do you think they will work to build the uk up?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			The vote you suggested offered nothing of value to the uk people ... if you think remain is unpalatable to masses the referendum will highlight it further and we can exit
		
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Absolutely not. We've had that vote and the decision is made, all that remains is the decision of how we leave.  The vote I suggest offers a completion of the process to the UK people.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Are you scared that remain is an option .. the original vote did not cover the details we have them now. Remember it was a close vote and some were making a protest, some thought it was a certain remain and did not vote.
Every time I read or hear this leave opinion I just think itâ€™s desperate and itâ€™s not giving the people their chance to decide. If you think itâ€™s a certainty you wouldnâ€™t be afraid of it.
		
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Why can't we respect the result of the first referendum by leaving, either with or without a deal, and then if subsequently there is support for being in the EU have a referendum on whether or not the UK should rejoin the EU. That satisfies the result of the first referendum and it also gives people their chance to decide if we should rejoin.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolutely not. We've had that vote and the decision is made, all that remains is the decision of how we leave.  The vote I suggest offers a completion of the process to the UK people.
		
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Incorrect again ... UKIP and Boris should be charged with fraud given their promises in the campaign.
Within these few months we have had the insight into what is required and impacts .. pretty sure remain is an option especially with EC ruling.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why can't we respect the result of the first referendum by leaving, either with or without a deal, and then if subsequently there is support for being in the EU have a referendum on whether or not the UK should rejoin the EU. That satisfies the result of the first referendum and it also gives people their chance to decide if we should rejoin.
		
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The point is when  could we do that. I would suggest we should wait at least 15 years to give Brexit a chance.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 12, 2018)

Quick question 

What do you think the result would be if they did do the vote again now ? 

Obviously people are now a bit more informed of both what happens if we stay in and what will be the affects of leaving - no stupid bus and false claims from either side 

Will it still be for the UK to leave ? Or would there be a turn around and the remain wins ?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			The point is when  could we do that. I would suggest we should wait at least 15 years to give Brexit a chance.
		
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Iâ€™d wait 10 yrs to hard exit, make sure I have all the bits I need to have the power economy I require.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Quick question

What do you think the result would be if they did do the vote again now ?

Obviously people are now a bit more informed of both what happens if we stay in and what *MIGHT* be the affects of leaving - no stupid bus and false claims from either side

Will it still be for the UK to leave ? Or would there be a turn around and the remain wins ?
		
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I've edited one word in your post as no one actually knows what will happen, only what certain predictions and forecasts are saying and with the forecasts coming from the same people/positions that the previously dire predictions came from these are too easily dismissed as project fear.

I think that it's too close to call what the result would be. It would probably come down to how many people bothered to vote or if it was raining on referendum day. But if it were to be rerun would that be the end of the matter? If Leave won again would that be it and we'd be out straight away? If remain won there would be calls for a further referendum especially if the result was close? I've heard Blair's call for a second referendum but that both sides should agree beforehand that it was binding and the end of the matter. I think that everyone thought that the first referendum was binding and would be the end of the matter but I guess that was before the result was in favour of leaving.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 12, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Incorrect again ... UKIP and Boris should be charged with fraud given their promises in the campaign.
Within these few months we have had the insight into what is required and impacts .. pretty sure remain is an option especially with EC ruling.
		
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That argument is hacknied and irrelevant. Can you not recall the prophecies of doom from Osborne  Cameron, The BOE, the IMF, Obama etc on the perils that would become us the  moment we voted leave.  It disingenuous to suggest leave voters only voted based on what was painted on the side of a bus. People are not stupid and it was explained clearly what leaving the EU meant, we all had a booklet pushed through out letterboxes explaining it meant leaving the customs union and single market, it told us if we voted leave the government would honour our decision.


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## Dando (Dec 12, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Incorrect again ... UKIP and Boris should be charged with fraud given their promises in the campaign.
Within these few months we have had the insight into what is required and impacts .. pretty sure remain is an option especially with EC ruling.
		
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How can they be charged with fraud? ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Dando (Dec 12, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			That argument is hacknied and irrelevant. Can you not recall the prophecies of doom from Osborne  Cameron, The BOE, the IMF, Obama etc on the perils that would become us the  moment we voted leave.  It disingenuous to suggest leave voters only voted based on what was painted on the side of a bus. People are not stupid and it was explained clearly what leaving the EU meant, we all had a booklet pushed through out letterboxes explaining it meant leaving the customs union and single market, it told us if we voted leave the government would honour our decision.
		
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Remember that the remainers only exaggerated!


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2018)

Dando said:



			How can they be charged with fraud? ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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That's not a bad point. Until the UK has left, and the Â£350m hasn't been given to the NHS just what act of fraud have they committed? Now if it was George Osbourne, who predicted emergency budgets etc, yes.


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## Dando (Dec 12, 2018)

But that money wasnâ€™t promised to the NHS!


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2018)

Dando said:



			How can they be charged with fraud? ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Cos it ainâ€™t true... ðŸ™Š


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## chrisd (Dec 12, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Cos it ainâ€™t true... ðŸ™Š
		
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I'm absolutely sure that even Farage agreed that the NHS money was over estimated long before the referendum took place


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## Dando (Dec 12, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Cos it ainâ€™t true... ðŸ™Š
		
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Thatâ€™s no basis to charge someone with fraud


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 12, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Quick question

What do you think the result would be if they did do the vote again now ?

Obviously people are now a bit more informed of both what happens if we stay in and what will be the affects of leaving - no stupid bus and false claims from either side

Will it still be for the UK to leave ? Or would there be a turn around and the remain wins ?
		
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I have got to the point of having absolutely no idea how a second vote would go Phil.  You would have people like Brian's friend, a staunch Remainer but who would vote Leave because of her respect for the democratic process.  You'd have people like me who believe Leave is the correct route to take but who now have so little confidence in our leaders' abilities to make it happen that I would consider Remain a safer option.  So many variables.

If forced I'd say Remain would get it, as all those who didn't bother to vote last time would find they had a raincoat & come out to play, whilst dispirited Leave voters would give up in disgust & stay in.  But that doesn't account for those so incensed by our leaders' efforts to ignore the first result that they then vote Leave.

The only thing that keeps coming into my head watching this shambles unfold is the line from the German guest in Fawlty Towers wondering how the English ever won a war...


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## Reemul (Dec 12, 2018)

If we have another referendum and we got a 60/40 remain those 40% would never accept the vote, if we think politics cannot fall further we are much mistaken, trust in politicians would fall through the floor even further.

What maybe should happen is Labour call a vote of no confidence and say they will run a general election with a view to overturning Brexit.

You then get 2 choices vote conservative and get an exit or vote labour and get to remain, However in my opinion what we get is a hung parliament again.

The reality is the brexit deal will not get voted through. So what do we do, no one wants a no deal leave, half don't want a second referendum but those that lost think they can now win so do want one. Everybody wanted a deal that was workable while understanding it wouldn't be the best we could get, We needed someone 2 years ago that really believed in Brexit as a positive move and went in with an aggressive and clear set of goals, we did not get that, we got wishy washy willy nilly bollocks that has left us pretty much screwed.

It is too late to renegotiate so we have 3 options.

1. Another referendum
2. No Deal
3. The backstop deal.

Number 1 should be out, it will cause even more lasting damage than we are already having. Lets have a vote on numbers 2 or 3. Make it really clear what No deal means and what the backstop deal means. You make it clear a 50.1% is a win and let everyone choose.

I voted leave originally but would now vote remain but still don't want another referendum, while some may have changed their minds many will not and if will further dilute our political system and the trust in it. I still believe in the EU as a trading block / system but not as an integrated large scale state that the EU is becoming.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 12, 2018)

Reemul said:



			If we have another referendum and we got a 60/40 remain those 40% would never accept the vote, if we think politics cannot fall further we are much mistaken, trust in politicians would fall through the floor even further.

What maybe should happen is Labour call a vote of no confidence and say they will run a general election with a view to overturning Brexit.

You then get 2 choices vote conservative and get an exit or vote labour and get to remain, However in my opinion what we get is a hung parliament again.

The reality is the brexit deal will not get voted through. So what do we do, no one wants a no deal leave, half don't want a second referendum but those that lost think they can now win so do want one. Everybody wanted a deal that was workable while understanding it wouldn't be the best we could get, We needed someone 2 years ago that really believed in Brexit as a positive move and went in with an aggressive and clear set of goals, we did not get that, we got wishy washy willy nilly bollocks that has left us pretty much screwed.

It is too late to renegotiate so we have 3 options.

1. Another referendum
2. No Deal
3. The backstop deal.

Number 1 should be out, it will cause even more lasting damage than we are already having. Lets have a vote on numbers 2 or 3. Make it really clear what No deal means and what the backstop deal means. You make it clear a 50.1% is a win and let everyone choose.

*I voted leave originally but would now vote remain* but still don't want another referendum, while some may have changed their minds many will not and if will further dilute our political system and the trust in it. I still believe in the EU as a trading block / system but not as an integrated large scale state that the EU is becoming.
		
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Can I ask why the change?  No agenda, just curious.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 12, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Quick question

What do you think the result would be if they did do the vote again now ?

Obviously people are now a bit more informed of both what happens if we stay in and what will be the affects of leaving - no stupid bus and false claims from either side

Will it still be for the UK to leave ? Or would there be a turn around and the remain wins ?
		
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Iâ€™m not informed of what will happen with either outcomes? Has somebody got a crystal ball I didnâ€™t know about? 

Same result.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 12, 2018)

Dando said:



			Thatâ€™s no basis to charge someone with fraud
		
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Disception and personal gain ?? ðŸ§


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## Stuart_C (Dec 13, 2018)

What a complete waste of a day on nothing more than Tory party theatrics. They should all be charged with contempt.

Theres no chance of her getting that deal through Parliment though.


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## Reemul (Dec 13, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can I ask why the change?  No agenda, just curious.
		
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I think having all the facts the downsides are much bigger than the upsides in both the short and medium term. We needed to focus more on the short and medium term future rather than the right now.

Living on the south coast in an affluent area it is easy to think we can manage this but for many parts of the country leaving could be pretty disastrous and peoples lively hoods and futures are more important.

Immigration is now a worldwide issue and will get more focus on solutions when for a time it felt like it was only us.

Centralisation is an issue but being involved in it and working against it is better than some half assed half in half out rubbish it looks like we could end up with.

Personally i believe if we could have an EU trading bloc partnership only, the majority of people would be more than happy with it, in fact it would walk a vote, unfortunately that is not what the EU is now about.

Really it's a mess, in has plenty going for it and out could but with no guarantees and you end up with a near 50/50 split in what to do.

Additionally I feel leaving would work if we have a government that really believed in leaving but we don't and I have little faith that either party would manage the leaving well enough to make it work, in fact I fear they are going to screw it up so badly we are going to be much worse off than we should be make remain the rational choice as the best outcome for the majority of the people.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 13, 2018)

Reemul said:



			I think having all the facts the downsides are much bigger than the upsides in both the short and medium term. We needed to focus more on the short and medium term future rather than the right now.

Living on the south coast in an affluent area it is easy to think we can manage this but for many parts of the country leaving could be pretty disastrous and peoples lively hoods and futures are more important.

Immigration is now a worldwide issue and will get more focus on solutions when for a time it felt like it was only us.

Centralisation is an issue but being involved in it and working against it is better than some half assed half in half out rubbish it looks like we could end up with.

Personally i believe if we could have an EU trading bloc partnership only, the majority of people would be more than happy with it, in fact it would walk a vote, unfortunately that is not what the EU is now about.

Really it's a mess, in has plenty going for it and out could but with no guarantees and you end up with a near 50/50 split in what to do.

Additionally I feel leaving would work if we have a government that really believed in leaving but we don't and I have little faith that either party would manage the leaving well enough to make it work, in fact I fear they are going to screw it up so badly we are going to be much worse off than we should be make remain the rational choice as the best outcome for the majority of the people.
		
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Thank you. Iâ€™m not so sure I agree with your first paragraph but the last 4 I could have written myself; pretty much sums up my thinking.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 13, 2018)

Remember 165 of Mays supporters in the no confidence vote were on the government payroll.
They would have been voting for the sack from their 'extra' job if they had not supported her.

165 seems like a very big number to me,


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## Stuart_C (Dec 13, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Remember 165 of Mays supporters in the no confidence vote were on the government payroll.
They would have been voting for the sack from their 'extra' job if they had not supported her.

165 seems like a very big number to me,
		
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165?? i thought it was 117?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			165?? i thought it was 117?
		
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It's a line the anti May MP's are rolling out. 165 Conservative MP's are either ministers, PPS's, assistants etc, effectively not just MP's but in an extra job that makes them employees of the govt and so beholden to their employer. Those 165 MP's are more likely to vote for TM because she gave them their job in govt, not as an MP but as part of the govt. If you exclude them then of the backbenchers, not part of the govt machine, the majority voted against TM.

I'm not saying I agree with their line of thinking, this is just an explanation of the numbers and the line they are coming out with. Jacob Rees Mogg has this approach for example.

One sobering comment I saw yesterday was that next time TM walks into the chamber she will know that 2/3 of the MP's in there, all of them, don't think she is up to it. That must do wonders for your confidence.


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## Dando (Dec 13, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Disception and personal gain ?? ðŸ§
		
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every MP can be accused of deception.
how have they gained personally?


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## Sweep (Dec 13, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Remember 165 of Mays supporters in the no confidence vote were on the government payroll.
They would have been voting for the sack from their 'extra' job if they had not supported her.

165 seems like a very big number to me,
		
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I never thought I would see you agree with Jacob Rees Mogg!


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## ger147 (Dec 13, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Remember 165 of Mays supporters in the no confidence vote were on the government payroll.
They would have been voting for the sack from their 'extra' job if they had not supported her.

165 seems like a very big number to me,
		
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It was a secret ballot so they could have easily voted against her without risking the sack, it's a nonsense argument...


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## jp5 (Dec 13, 2018)

ger147 said:



			It was a secret ballot so they could have easily voted against her without risking the sack, it's a nonsense argument...
		
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I'd have to say it's not a nonsense argument - those on the payroll of the Government would be risking their job under a different leader, so you'd expect most of them to vote with the PM.


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## ger147 (Dec 13, 2018)

jp5 said:



			I'd have to say it's not a nonsense argument - those on the payroll of the Government would be risking their job under a different leader, so you'd expect most of them to vote with the PM.
		
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Happy to agree to disagree, it's a nonsense argument.


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## drdel (Dec 13, 2018)

To those who say...

*Sack PM* - wouldn't change the 'deal' the EU has become entrenched in their protection against other members temptation to leave.
*General election* - no change in stance by EU and Labour is split as much as Tories. Irish issue stays the same.
*Cross Party compact* - probably result in hung decision and, in any case, the EU will still play silly beggars by their entrenchment.
*Second vote* - disaster for democracy/Parliament's credibility. Why pander to those who couldn't be a**ed to vote last time obviously don't have a strong view so you could imagine a near 50/50 split.
*Leave on 29/03/19 under WTO*: not really as damaging as reported but it would honour the result and not split Parliament beyond recovery.

IMO taking a small short-term hit and going for a WTO setup would be by far the best long term result for the UK. EU is in turmoil and costs are out of control hence their need for a 'federal' plan. Growth in Europe is stagnating.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 13, 2018)

https://order-order.com/2018/12/13/sturgeons-brexit-showboating-slammed-supreme-court/


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 13, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I never thought I would see you agree with Jacob Rees Mogg!
		
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Yea I was quoting him thinking he was a man of good standing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 13, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



https://order-order.com/2018/12/13/sturgeons-brexit-showboating-slammed-supreme-court/

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Or a different view of the judgement

.https://stv.tv/news/politics/1433719-supreme-court-rules-out-parts-of-holyrood-brexit-bill/


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## Sweep (Dec 13, 2018)

drdel said:



			To those who say...

*Sack PM* - wouldn't change the 'deal' the EU has become entrenched in their protection against other members temptation to leave.
*General election* - no change in stance by EU and Labour is split as much as Tories. Irish issue stays the same.
*Cross Party compact* - probably result in hung decision and, in any case, the EU will still play silly beggars by their entrenchment.
*Second vote* - disaster for democracy/Parliament's credibility. Why pander to those who couldn't be a**ed to vote last time obviously don't have a strong view so you could imagine a near 50/50 split.
*Leave on 29/03/19 under WTO*: not really as damaging as reported but it would honour the result and not split Parliament beyond recovery.

IMO taking a small short-term hit and going for a WTO setup would be by far the best long term result for the UK. EU is in turmoil and costs are out of control hence their need for a 'federal' plan. Growth in Europe is stagnating.
		
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I agree with this post, but would add that Mrs May should never have agreed with the EU to â€œherâ€ deal in the first place and brought it back to Parliament. It has effectively given the EU the opportunity to entrench themselves in this deal and bringing it back for approval has made her look weak - which she probably is.


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2018)

drdel said:



			To those who say...

*Sack PM* - wouldn't change the 'deal' the EU has become entrenched in their protection against other members temptation to leave.
*General election* - no change in stance by EU and Labour is split as much as Tories. Irish issue stays the same.
*Cross Party compact* - probably result in hung decision and, in any case, the EU will still play silly beggars by their entrenchment.
*Second vote* - disaster for democracy/Parliament's credibility. Why pander to those who couldn't be a**ed to vote last time obviously don't have a strong view so you could imagine a near 50/50 split.
*Leave on 29/03/19 under WTO*: not really as damaging as reported but it would honour the result and not split Parliament beyond recovery.

IMO taking a small short-term hit and going for a WTO setup would be by far the best long term result for the UK. EU is in turmoil and costs are out of control hence their need for a 'federal' plan. Growth in Europe is stagnating.
		
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Agree with pretty much all of that, as it reads, but there is one thing none of us know.

What agreements and assurances were given either way when Corbyn went over, on several occasions, to meet the EU? I think it was very wrong for them to have those meetings.

As a conspiracy theory, seeing as its panto season, the EU give May a hard time, knowing its unlikely to fly with the Tories but offer Corbyn all sorts of incentives to block the deal providing, when he's elected, he keeps the UK in the EU. Or if the UK are already out by the time Labour gain power, he then takes the UK back into the EU.


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## drdel (Dec 13, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Agree with pretty much all of that, as it reads, but there is one thing none of us know.

What agreements and assurances were given either way when Corbyn went over, on several occasions, to meet the EU? I think it was very wrong for them to have those meetings.

As a conspiracy theory, seeing as its panto season, the EU give May a hard time, knowing its unlikely to fly with the Tories but offer Corbyn all sorts of incentives to block the deal providing, when he's elected, he keeps the UK in the EU. Or if the UK are already out by the time Labour gain power, he then takes the UK back into the EU.
		
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Yup.there was said to be honour among thieves, but you couldn't even hint at it being true for many polictians.

However I'm not sure they have the brain cells to cook up much of a underhand plan especially when Barnier and Co. are unable to stay off Twitter for more than 10mins.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2018)

drdel said:



			Yup.there was said to be honour among thieves, but you couldn't even hint at it being true for many polictians.

*However I'm not sure they have the brain cells to cook up much of a underhand plan especially when Barnier and Co. are unable to stay off Twitter for more than 10mins*.
		
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I've seen several insults thrown at the EU team for being twitter obsessed, not having many brain cells and even being drunk.  But count your blessings, as based on the outcome of the negotiations, it's a good job they are not vaguely intelligent, gave it their full attention and sobered up or we would be in real trouble. Also doesn't say much for Davis, Raab and 'Insert this week's name here' as negotiators or even our ability to negotiate favourable trade deals in the future if we can't outfox drunk thickos who are constantly updating their profile pictures.


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2018)

So, he hasnt been pictured "a wee bit sozzled then?"  (often)  Sorry,  my mistake

Negiotation like this is easy.  I would have thought the current terms were agreed about 18 months ago...  you know the rest, I am not repeating it again


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2018)

IanM said:



			So, he hasnt been pictured "a wee bit sozzled then?"  (often)  Sorry,  my mistake

Negiotation like this is easy.  I would have thought the current terms were agreed about 18 months ago...  you know the rest, I am not repeating it again
		
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He was bladdered. But MDâ€™s of companies donâ€™t do the negotiating. They give their team a brief, and itâ€™s up to the team to sort the detail.


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## jp5 (Dec 14, 2018)

I hear May gave the "Brexit means Brexit" line to the EU leaders last night... I think we could be in trouble...


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2018)

Last week or so the Dominic Grieve amendment was supposed to ensure that either parliament accepted the TM deal or a soft Brexit was the likely outcome. Now that the EU have rejected any alteration to the TM deal and that will surely get rejected I can't see any deal other than a no deal Brexit as I don't see anything getting the approval of parliament. Am I wrong? Am I misreading what has happened?


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## jp5 (Dec 14, 2018)

No chance Parliament would allow a no deal Brexit to happen, can't imagine we're in any way ready for that.


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2018)

I am sure you are right.... but that doesnt mean some Agencies havent prepared for the possibilty!


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## ger147 (Dec 14, 2018)

jp5 said:



			No chance Parliament would allow a no deal Brexit to happen, can't imagine we're in any way ready for that.
		
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Parliament can't stop a No Deal unless they either agree a deal or cancel Brexit altogether. The only other possibility is an extension to the 29th March date but that would need the agreement of the EU as well as the UK Parliament.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 14, 2018)

pretty much what DD was saying on QT last night.


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## HughJars (Dec 14, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



https://order-order.com/2018/12/13/sturgeons-brexit-showboating-slammed-supreme-court/

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Oh Bob, you can;t be quoting Guido as a serious source surely? 

It's already out that Ken MacKintosh has utterly screwed Holyrood on this, by allowing Westminster to re-write laws in the interim to block holyrood's bill. The Supreme Court backed the Lord Advocate.


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## HughJars (Dec 14, 2018)

jp5 said:



			I hear May gave the "Brexit means Brexit" line to the EU leaders last night... I think we could be in trouble...
		
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I think it was the other way around wasn't it? She made her plea, and one of the leaders clapped back. Sky news version this morning anyway


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Oh Bob, you can;t be quoting Guido as a serious source surely?

It's already out that Ken MacKintosh has utterly screwed Holyrood on this, by allowing Westminster to re-write laws in the interim to block holyrood's bill. The Supreme Court backed the Lord Advocate.
		
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...and put The Queen in a really awkward place, bet she was not too happy about signing off the 'Dodgy Dave' bill of HMG.


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## Sweep (Dec 14, 2018)

Amazing really. Current parties and politicians out of touch with the electorate.
The majority of parties and MPâ€™s in Westminster are remainers but the referendum result was to leave.
The SNP in power in Scotland and yet the result of their referendum was to stay.
Itâ€™s not surprising we are in the mess we are really.
I wonder if we have ever been in such a situation before, particularly in such serious circumstances.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 14, 2018)

I keep hearing the "will of the people", but that was 2.5 yrs ago or are they the only ones who get to say?
In the time this whole farce has gone on, there will be many who have reached voting age, died, emigrated, immigrated or just decided to vote next time. We dont choose Governments one one set of voters many years ago, so why now?


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## PieMan (Dec 14, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I wonder if we have ever been in such a situation before, particularly in such serious circumstances.
		
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I would imagine that this is nothing compared to when Hitler's armies were going on their European tour in the late 1930s and our Government of the day we're trying to pursue a policy of appeasement!

Nor in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis when the world stood on the brink of Nuclear war! ðŸ˜‰

All we're trying to do is remove ourselves from the EU. As a Commission official said to me a few months ago "well the UK has never really been truly committed to the idea of more Europe"!! ðŸ¤”

After my experiences of working with the European Commission and European Parliament I'm quite happy we're leaving.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2018)

Tory whips call a three liner for Mon/Tues/Wed, expecting a no confidence vote perhaps.

BTW Sweep, The SNP are in a coalition with the Greens in Scotland so technically not in power.
If Scotland had an old fashioned FPTP voting system like Westminster then the SNP would be massively in power.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 14, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tory whips call a three liner for Mon/Tues/Wed, expecting a no confidence vote perhaps.

BTW Sweep, The SNP are in a coalition with the Greens in Scotland so technically not in power.
If Scotland had an old fashioned FPTP voting system like Westminster then the SNP would be massively in power.
		
Click to expand...

There cant be, as under Tory party rules the leader is protected from that for 1 year.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2018)

Should have said 'Vote of no confidence in the government'


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2018)

PieMan said:



			I would imagine that this is nothing compared to when Hitler's armies were going on their European tour in the late 1930s and our Government of the day we're trying to pursue a policy of appeasement!

Nor in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis when the world stood on the brink of Nuclear war! ðŸ˜‰

All we're trying to do is remove ourselves from the EU. As a Commission official said to me a few months ago "well the UK has never really been truly committed to the idea of more Europe"!! ðŸ¤”

After my experiences of working with the European Commission and European Parliament I'm quite happy we're leaving.
		
Click to expand...


...if the Lisbon Treaty was more user friendly... the Referendum vote would have been hugely different!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2018)

EU spokesman.....The EU has two types of countries, small countries and countries who think that they are not small countries.
Brilliant.
Not going well for May in Brussels, looks like a blind Brexit in a few months.
Just about to speak now 13.15.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?sou...562.8....2..0....1..gws-wiz.....0.LQD37xzSw64

I had to look it up


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			EU spokesman.....The EU has two types of countries, small countries and countries who think that they are not small countries.
Brilliant.
		
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What like Germany and France?  That's the whole point.  The Eurofanatics do not recognise the right of nation states to exist.


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2018)

Euopean Commission just confirmed we will need to pay 7 euros every three years for a permit to visit the EU after Brexit.  Funny...we're paying more that that now! 

Oh my... quick, I've changed my mind... we need to stay in!!


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## Dando (Dec 14, 2018)

I  see Bliar has crawled out from under his rock again saying we MUST have another referendum


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2018)

IanM said:



			Euopean Commission just confirmed we will need to pay 7 euros every three years for a permit to visit the EU after Brexit.  Funny...we're paying more that that now!
		
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???? We don't pay anything now. 

It is a form of ESTA (USA) that is being brought in for all non EU citizens visiting EU countries after 2021. We wont be in the EU so we have to pay. (I agree by the way, it is not a reason to cave in. I am guessing this came up in a question and the situation was clarified. No real shock when you read about it)


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2018)

Dando said:



			I  see Bliar has crawled out from under his rock again saying we MUST have another referendum
		
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Is is obligated to speak up for his pay-masters.... even Kinnock has been dusted off and let out of the Care Home


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			???? We don't pay anything now.
		
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 was referring to our subs....


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2018)

IanM said:



 was referring to our subs....
		
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Ah, that makes sense. Of course we could now be paying subs plus each individual will be paying Â£7 every 3 years as well


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## drdel (Dec 14, 2018)

PieMan said:



			I would imagine that this is nothing compared to when Hitler's armies were going on their European tour in the late 1930s and our Government of the day we're trying to pursue a policy of appeasement!

Nor in 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis when the world stood on the brink of Nuclear war! ðŸ˜‰

All we're trying to do is remove ourselves from the EU. As a Commission official said to me a few months ago "well the UK has never really been truly committed to the idea of more Europe"!! ðŸ¤”

After my experiences of working with the European Commission and European Parliament I'm quite happy we're leaving.
		
Click to expand...

I agree.  Anyone who supports the EU should be forced to work in Brussels for a couple of  months to see how they waste time and money: they would observe, first hand, how the opinions of member states are treated as an irrritant. Citizens are non-existent in their decision making.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 14, 2018)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46564884 

7 bloody Euros!  Rob dogs, I can see I'll be out of pocket straight away thanks to brexit, project fear, project bloody reality more like....


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## jp5 (Dec 14, 2018)

And anyone who supports parliament should look at their time wasting -- how many hours of debate were there last week for TM only to decide to pull the vote?

Maybe we'd all be better governing ourselves


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## Sweep (Dec 14, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I keep hearing the "will of the people", but that was 2.5 yrs ago or are they the only ones who get to say?
In the time this whole farce has gone on, there will be many who have reached voting age, died, emigrated, immigrated or just decided to vote next time. We dont choose Governments one one set of voters many years ago, so why now?
		
Click to expand...

The will of the people from 1975 seemed to last quite a while.


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## Sweep (Dec 14, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tory whips call a three liner for Mon/Tues/Wed, expecting a no confidence vote perhaps.

BTW Sweep, The SNP are in a coalition with the Greens in Scotland so technically not in power.
If Scotland had an old fashioned FPTP voting system like Westminster then the SNP would be massively in power.
		
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I genuinely didnâ€™t realise that. Why do we never see the leader of the Greens on TV then? Whoever he, she or they are.


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## PieMan (Dec 14, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Why do we never see the leader of the Greens on TV then?
		
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Too busy speaking to, and hugging, trees...............!


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## HughJars (Dec 14, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I genuinely didnâ€™t realise that. Why do we never see the leader of the Greens on TV then? Whoever he, she or they are.
		
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Patrick Harvie. And the greens are pro-indy, so that answers your question.


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## Sweep (Dec 14, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Patrick Harvie. And the greens are pro-indy, so that answers your question.
		
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Ah, thanks.
So my original point still stands. The government is out of touch with the people in regard to the referendum.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I genuinely didnâ€™t realise that. Why do we never see the leader of the Greens on TV then? Whoever he, she or they are.
		
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Strangely enough we see him quite a lot.
He walks the line well, pushes his agenda as far as he can go without antagonising the SNP second vote group to badly.

For someone who does not even know about Patrick Harvie and a two year old hung parliament I will  take your future  comments/knowledge about Scottish politics as being pretty underwhelming.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strangely enough we see him quite a lot.
He walks the line well, pushes his agenda as far as he can go without antagonising the SNP second vote group to badly.

For someone who does not even know about Patrick Harvie and a two year old hung parliament I will  take your future  comments/knowledge about Scottish politics as being pretty underwhelming.
		
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Not a lot of difference
 All looney lefties.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 14, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strangely enough we see him quite a lot.
He walks the line well, pushes his agenda as far as he can go without antagonising the SNP second vote group to badly.

For someone who does not even know about Patrick Harvie and a two year old hung parliament I will  take your future  comments/knowledge about Scottish politics as being pretty underwhelming.
		
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He sounds as hypocritical as Nicola....he wants a low carbon society but jumps in to bed with the high carbon Nats, she wants independence to jump in to bed with a federal state! ðŸ¤”


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2018)

Here is another example of the glorious leader in action!  Apparently the last one didnâ€™t count, so hereâ€™s a funnier one

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073624331220074496


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 14, 2018)

A leave campaign didnâ€™t exactly cover themselves in glory with this 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073558833878962176
Blocking an ambulance


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## spongebob59 (Dec 14, 2018)

I 'd hardly call it a campaign, about a dozen numpty s in high viz trying to copy the french.


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A leave campaign didnâ€™t exactly cover themselves in glory with this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073558833878962176
Blocking an ambulance
		
Click to expand...

I don't know the circumstances, and if they did block the passage of the ambulance its inexcusable. 

BUT this is an example of why social media can be misleading. Question immediately springs to mind. Was the ambulance for a member of the protest crowd? Not saying it is but its a good example of how fake news can be spread.

I prefer my news to come from reliable sources. Anything else is about as valid has many of our opinions on here.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A leave campaign didnâ€™t exactly cover themselves in glory with this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073558833878962176
Blocking an ambulance
		
Click to expand...

What are you suggesting?  Is it that leave campaigners are numpties that have no care for ambulances.  What about the mass rally for Remainers in London recently, I guess they may have made difficulties for the emergency sefvices but lets ignore that.


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## Sweep (Dec 14, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strangely enough we see him quite a lot.
He walks the line well, pushes his agenda as far as he can go without antagonising the SNP second vote group to badly.

For someone who does not even know about Patrick Harvie and a two year old hung parliament I will  take your future  comments/knowledge about Scottish politics as being pretty underwhelming.
		
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Cut me some slack. I canâ€™t be an expert on everything like some others on here.
I think you over egg Scottish politics well beyond itâ€™s importance in the UK wide scenario. Apart from the independence stuff that affects us all, no-one else outside Scotland is too fussed. I should imagine you would be quite pleased about that. After all, you  indies keep telling us Scotland is nothing to do with us.
As with all politics it can cause some amusement, like the SNP keep saying they can rejoin the EU, keep the pound and the yellow brick road still leads to Edinburgh along with back of the fag packet economics. But as there is a lot going on elsewhere Scottish politics isnâ€™t really high up my list at present nor I suspect many other peopleâ€™s outside Scotland.


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## chrisd (Dec 15, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Cut me some slack. I canâ€™t be an expert on everything like some others on here.
I think you over egg Scottish politics well beyond itâ€™s importance in the UK wide scenario. Apart from the independence stuff that affects us all, no-one else outside Scotland is too fussed. I should imagine you would be quite pleased about that. After all, you  indies keep telling us Scotland is nothing to do with us.
As with all politics it can cause some amusement, like the SNP keep saying they can rejoin the EU, keep the pound and the yellow brick road still leads to Edinburgh along with back of the fag packet economics. But as there is a lot going on elsewhere Scottish politics isnâ€™t really high up my list at present nor I suspect many other peopleâ€™s outside Scotland.
		
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Even this tends to overstate the importance of Scottish politics to anyone outside Scotland  ðŸ˜ðŸ˜


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## Slime (Dec 15, 2018)

chrisd said:



			Even this tends to overstate the importance of Scottish politics to anyone outside Scotland  ðŸ˜ðŸ˜
		
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It has as much importance as Scottish football ............................. or should I say fitba.


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## chrisd (Dec 15, 2018)

Slime said:



			It has as much importance as Scottish football ............................. or should I say fitba.
		
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They play football in Scotland??

First I've heard of it ðŸ¤”


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 15, 2018)

chrisd said:



			They play football in Scotland??

First I've heard of it ðŸ¤”
		
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Well, not to any great level


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 15, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			What are you suggesting?  Is it that leave campaigners are numpties that have no care for ambulances.  What about the mass rally for Remainers in London recently, I guess they may have made difficulties for the emergency sefvices but lets ignore that.
		
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I am suggesting that the people in the video are a bunch of complete idiots who made an embarrassment of themselves - i particular enjoyed one of them sticking their fingers up towards the Ambulance- real classy - these Leave campaigners showed little to no care of the emergency services who was clearly blue lighting.

Did the â€œmass organised through the correct channelsâ€ demonstration ( so that the emergency services know there is a chance of blockages is certain areas ) - stop any blue light emergencies?

Why is there always some sort of â€œBut what aboutâ€ ? Is it a lack of acceptance there is complete clowns on both sides of the campaign ?

I do notice the lack of â€œcondemnationâ€ from yourself instead prefer to point fingers elsewhere and try and make suggestions - thatâ€™s pretty much par for the course isnâ€™t it


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A leave campaign didnâ€™t exactly cover themselves in glory with this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073558833878962176
Blocking an ambulance
		
Click to expand...

Oh the irony.......wanting out of the EU but copying the French protesters..


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## Slime (Dec 15, 2018)

chrisd said:



			They play football in Scotland??

First I've heard of it ðŸ¤”
		
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No, they play fitba ............................ apparently!


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## HughJars (Dec 15, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I don't know the circumstances, and if they did block the passage of the ambulance its inexcusable.

*BUT this is an example of why social media can be misleading.* Question immediately springs to mind. Was the ambulance for a member of the protest crowd? Not saying it is but its a good example of how fake news can be spread.

*I prefer my news to come from reliable sources*. Anything else is about as valid has many of our opinions on here.
		
Click to expand...

There's no doubt it can be so you have to do your own filtering, but overall it's where you can drill down to the truth, as you sure cant trust the MSM.

I'd be interested in what you classify as "reliable sources"?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 15, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Well, not to any great level

Click to expand...

So correct we are so crap we could not even beat little England last time we played when they scraped a last second goal draw.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 15, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I am suggesting that the people in the video are a bunch of complete idiots who made an embarrassment of themselves - i particular enjoyed one of them sticking their fingers up towards the Ambulance- real classy - these Leave campaigners showed little to no care of the emergency services who was clearly blue lighting.

Did the â€œmass organised through the correct channelsâ€ demonstration ( so that the emergency services know there is a chance of blockages is certain areas ) - stop any blue light emergencies?

Why is there always some sort of â€œBut what aboutâ€ ? Is it a lack of acceptance there is complete clowns on both sides of the campaign ?

I do notice the lack of â€œcondemnationâ€ from yourself instead prefer to point fingers elsewhere and try and make suggestions - thatâ€™s pretty much par for the course isnâ€™t it
		
Click to expand...

Leave or Remain only a moron would hold up an ambulance.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 15, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Oh the irony.......wanting out of the EU but copying the French protesters..

Click to expand...

They DO seem to get their way though.
Maybe we need to be a little more like them instead of just accepting what politicos tell us.
Just look where thatâ€™s got us.

Our politicians have signed so many treaties and ingrained us so deep in the EU that we are almost trapped and canâ€™t really extradite ourselves without damaging us and the EU.
Then they vote to let the people decide and then blame us for not knowing what we voted for.
I have nothing but contempt for politicians.


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## chrisd (Dec 15, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So correct we are so crap we could not even beat little England last time we played when they scraped a last second goal draw.
		
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Its unlikely that recent World Cup semi finalists and former winners would not eventually score ðŸ¤«


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 15, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have nothing but contempt for politicians.
		
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Likewise those who take to the streets to cause wilful damage to property, infrastucture and the lives of inncoent people. Thats called  anarchy.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 15, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So correct we are so crap
		
Click to expand...

You said it.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 15, 2018)

clubchamp98 said:



			Leave or Remain only a moron would hold up an ambulance.
		
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indeed the morons do seem to be in the majority though â˜¹ï¸


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2018)

The ambulance car didn't seem to be in too much of a hurry.
I think it was set up to make the protesters look like morons and there was no emergency.


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## IanM (Dec 15, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Oh the irony.......wanting out of the EU but copying the French protesters..

Click to expand...

No irony...the yellow vests want Macron Gone...


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## MegaSteve (Dec 16, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Oh the irony.......wanting out of the EU but copying the French protesters..

Click to expand...

Never been an issue with the people of Europe just those that pollute the corridors of Brussels....


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 16, 2018)

Bunkermagnet said:



			You said it.

Click to expand...

Why did you cut out the rest of what I said, embarrassed by your memory loss perhaps.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 16, 2018)

Take care if you are booking a holiday after 29th March.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...g-dont-go-on-holiday-after-march-29-jnfmrgsj9


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## Sweep (Dec 16, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Take care if you are booking a holiday after 29th March.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...g-dont-go-on-holiday-after-march-29-jnfmrgsj9

Click to expand...

Does this mean I have to cancel my trip to the US in June?
I bet all the people working in the tourist trade in Spain etc are loving this.
I note that you can only read the first paragraph of sensationalist rubbish before you have to subscribe. 
So basically click bait. I wish I was surprised that people like you are taken in by such nonsense, but I am afraid I am not.


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## Sweep (Dec 16, 2018)

Genuine question to remainers:
Does it not concern you that the people running your campaign (including the government) did such a bad job pre referendum of highlighting the absolute disaster we face when leaving? Why didnâ€™t they tell us?
Here we are 2.5 years later and only this morning I have learned that Brexit will be worse for the UK than WW2 (Branson) and that we wonâ€™t be able to go on holiday ever again (Doon via the Times). It was only a couple of weeks ago I heard that we will run out of drinking water (in one of the wettest countries on the planet) and that we will have no medicine.
Why was none of this mentioned before we voted? Surely no-one would have voted for another WW2 and no holiday!

Second genuine question to remainers:
Do you actually believe this nonsense or are you embarrassed by it?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 16, 2018)

Plenty of other countries to go on hoilday to other than the EU.


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Genuine question to remainers:
Does it not concern you that the people running your campaign (including the government) did such a bad job pre referendum of highlighting the absolute disaster we face when leaving? Why didnâ€™t they tell us?
Here we are 2.5 years later and only this morning I have learned that Brexit will be worse for the UK than WW2 (Branson) and that we wonâ€™t be able to go on holiday ever again (Doon via the Times). It was only a couple of weeks ago I heard that we will run out of drinking water (in one of the wettest countries on the planet) and that we will have no medicine.
Why was none of this mentioned before we voted? Surely no-one would have voted for another WW2 and no holiday!

Second genuine question to remainers:
Do you actually believe this nonsense or are you embarrassed by it?
		
Click to expand...

Very good article in the Independent about the scare stories. Basically, it said don't believe them. It severely criticised Mark Carney, and asked the question why when several of his previous predictions have been proven to be wrong, and he did acknowledge he was very wrong, why is he getting air time?

On the issue of air travel, a number of carriers already have an office in the EU, and 2 recently moved their HQ there. So that's one hysteria debunked.

Holidays; Tui is a German company, and is still taking plenty of bookings. The Spanish minister for tourism has said whatever deal is done, British tourists will be allowed in without any problems. Don't forget, most of the world isn't in the EU yet can come here on holiday. More scare stories debunked.

"No medicines!" The UK is the third largest producer of medicines in the EU, and the second highest exporter of medicines to the EU. The EU will not stop importing medicines. It would be political suicide. And what comes through UK ports without checks will be down to the UK govt. Why would the UK block medicines? More political suicide. Mass hysteria more like. 

There is the Mutual Recognition Agreements, and I expect medicines will fall under that when both sides stop posturing.

There will be problems, without a doubt, but the banner headlines are, in the main, total rubbish. Short answer on imports into the UK, don't stop them. Start Brexit with a unilateral declaration that nothing will be stopped until the EU start stopping stuff.

Great piece in the German parliament this week. Yet another German politician asking why the deal is obviously a punishment deal. And asking for reassurances that German businesses will be compensated by the EU for disruption/loss of trade. He further asked why THE country that has always walked the middle road between walking away and staying and being a moderating influence in Brussels has finally had enough.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 16, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Genuine question to remainers:
Does it not concern you that the people running your campaign (including the government) did such a bad job pre referendum of highlighting the absolute disaster we face when leaving? Why didnâ€™t they tell us?
Here we are 2.5 years later and only this morning I have learned that Brexit will be worse for the UK than WW2 (Branson) and that we wonâ€™t be able to go on holiday ever again (Doon via the Times). It was only a couple of weeks ago I heard that we will run out of drinking water (in one of the wettest countries on the planet) and that we will have no medicine.
Why was none of this mentioned before we voted? Surely no-one would have voted for another WW2 and no holiday!

Second genuine question to remainers:
Do you actually believe this nonsense or are you embarrassed by it?
		
Click to expand...

Think thatâ€™s a pointless question to ask .. for sure there was complacency, I mean one would expect some basic understanding where stuff comes from, that manufactured parts are not wholly made in this country but sourced from Europe.. some more defined stuff like the economy should have been broken down. 
But given the facts, would the leavers have listened? ... your final question answers that question, your entrenched in a viewpoint, not willing to investigate deeper. I am sure some will benefit from Brexit, but I donâ€™t feel I will, or my family will at this moment in time.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Very good article in the Independent about the scare stories. Basically, it said don't believe them. It severely criticised Mark Carney, and asked the question why when several of his previous predictions have been proven to be wrong, and he did acknowledge he was very wrong, why is he getting air time?

On the issue of air travel, a number of carriers already have an office in the EU, and 2 recently moved their HQ there. So that's one hysteria debunked.

Holidays; Tui is a German company, and is still taking plenty of bookings. The Spanish minister for tourism has said whatever deal is done, British tourists will be allowed in without any problems. Don't forget, most of the world isn't in the EU yet can come here on holiday. More scare stories debunked.

"No medicines!" The UK is the third largest producer of medicines in the EU, and the second highest exporter of medicines to the EU. The EU will not stop importing medicines. It would be political suicide. And what comes through UK ports without checks will be down to the UK govt. Why would the UK block medicines? More political suicide. Mass hysteria more like.

There is the Mutual Recognition Agreements, and I expect medicines will fall under that when both sides stop posturing.

There will be problems, without a doubt, but the banner headlines are, in the main, total rubbish. Short answer on imports into the UK, don't stop them. Start Brexit with a unilateral declaration that nothing will be stopped until the EU start stopping stuff.

Great piece in the German parliament this week. Yet another German politician asking why the deal is obviously a punishment deal. And asking for reassurances that German businesses will be compensated by the EU for disruption/loss of trade. He further asked why THE country that has always walked the middle road between walking away and staying and being a moderating influence in Brussels has finally had enough.
		
Click to expand...

All above fair, but the holiday stuff is about us going elsewhere.. so irrelevant, we go when we can afford to go itâ€™s about disposable income.
The medicines stuff are protected so once again irrelevant..
The German politician statement .. a nice touch, niaive about the offering a punishment deal, the deal was never going to be better than remain. ðŸ˜‚ ( thought you would appreciate the sarcastic emoji!)
All in all a bit of a waste of time that post ðŸ§


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 16, 2018)

This is a genuine question, why is the trade minister celebrating a deal between Japan and the EU, an organising we are leaving, and saying it is good for us? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073298501746991104


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			This is a genuine question, why is the trade minister celebrating a deal between Japan and the EU, an organising we are leaving, and saying it is good for us?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073298501746991104

Click to expand...

Didn't the last sentence of his tweet answer your question.


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			All above fair, but the holiday stuff is about us going elsewhere.. so irrelevant, we go when we can afford to go itâ€™s about disposable income.
The medicines stuff are protected so once again irrelevant..
The German politician statement .. a nice touch, niaive about the offering a punishment deal, the deal was never going to be better than remain. ðŸ˜‚ ( thought you would appreciate the sarcastic emoji!)
All in all a bit of a waste of time that post ðŸ§
		
Click to expand...

Of course its a waste time shouldn't you be off playing with your Lego instead of wasting your time reading it...


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			This is a genuine question, why is the trade minister celebrating a deal between Japan and the EU, an organising we are leaving, and saying it is good for us?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073298501746991104

Click to expand...

The Japanese PM has invited the UK to join the transoceanic trade group post Brexit. Maybe there's been a discussion about it matching or bettering the EU deal, who knows...


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## MegaSteve (Dec 16, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Think thatâ€™s a pointless question to ask .. for sure there was complacency, I mean one would expect some basic understanding where stuff comes from, that manufactured parts are not wholly made in this country but sourced from Europe.. some more defined stuff like the economy should have been broken down. 
But given the facts, would the leavers have listened? ... your final question answers that question, your entrenched in a viewpoint, not willing to investigate deeper. I am sure some will benefit from Brexit, but I donâ€™t feel I will, or my family will at this moment in time.
		
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We have manufacturers who source components for their JiT  needs from outside the EU without issue... Why would manufacturers who source their needs from within the EU not be able to manage in a similar way post brexit?


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## Slime (Dec 16, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Take care if you are booking a holiday after 29th March.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...g-dont-go-on-holiday-after-march-29-jnfmrgsj9

Click to expand...


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## Sweep (Dec 16, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Think thatâ€™s a pointless question to ask .. for sure there was complacency, I mean one would expect some basic understanding where stuff comes from, that manufactured parts are not wholly made in this country but sourced from Europe.. some more defined stuff like the economy should have been broken down.
But given the facts, would the leavers have listened? ... your final question answers that question, your entrenched in a viewpoint, not willing to investigate deeper. I am sure some will benefit from Brexit, but I donâ€™t feel I will, or my family will at this moment in time.
		
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How can it be a pointless question? We are talking about something thatâ€™s going to be worse for the UK than WW2. We are going to run out of drinking water. No medicine. We are all going to die and we canâ€™t even go on holiday before we peg it.
Or is the truth itâ€™s all nonsense made up to try to force a reversal of the decision?

I note no remainers have answered the second question.
So do you believe it all or not? Yes or no will suffice.You donâ€™t even have to tell me why itâ€™s not nonsense.


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2018)

Sweep said:



			How can it be a pointless question? We are talking about something thatâ€™s going to be worse for the UK than WW2. We are going to run out of drinking water. No medicine. We are all going to die and we canâ€™t even go on holiday before we peg it.
Or is the truth itâ€™s all nonsense made up to try to force a reversal of the decision?

I note no remainers have answered the second question.
So do you believe it all or not? Yes or no will suffice.You donâ€™t even have to tell me why itâ€™s not nonsense.
		
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I'm Spartacus! Well, a Remainer actually.

No I don't believe it, and I am embarrassed about what other nations think about the idiots we have running the UK. We put them there. What does that say about us?


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## Sweep (Dec 16, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			This is a genuine question, why is the trade minister celebrating a deal between Japan and the EU, an organising we are leaving, and saying it is good for us?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1073298501746991104

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I suspect the minister knows more than us about whether we are leaving or not.

Another pertinent question is â€œwhy can Japan have a deal without having to sign up for freedom of movement, have the EU make their laws for them or the EU stopping Japan from doing other deals around the world?â€


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## drdel (Dec 16, 2018)

I'm rather more concerned about whether our politicians will honour the referendum's democratic vote than the hype and tripe about the movement of money, goods and people


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I suspect the minister knows more than us about whether we are leaving or not.

Another pertinent question is â€œwhy can Japan have a deal without having to sign up for freedom of movement, have the EU make their laws for them or the EU stopping Japan from doing other deals around the world?â€
		
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The EU has about 35 Free Trade Agreements, of which a number are with the likes of San Marino and Jersey. 27 others already provisionally applied, just waiting on the documents. And a further 25 under negotiation but won't be FTA's.

You tell me why the EU won't sign one with one of its bigger 'customers?' Its about punishment, its about 'forcing' the UK to stay, its about making sure every other EU country will get the message they will royally shafted if they try to leave, and its about the UK's current budget contribution, due to (provisionally) rise by a huge amount. The UK contributes about 13% of the EU's budget, and is the 3rd largest contributor. France is the second largest contributor but wasn't stupid enough to give up part of its rebate, and is actually 3rd when it comes to net contribution. A big lump like 13% out of the budget would cripple to EU, and the UK doesn't have the balls to use it as a bargaining chip. "Give us free access and we'll drip feed a contribution based on that, slowly reducing giving you time to alter the budget."


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 16, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I* suspect the minister knows more than us about whether we are leaving or not.*

Another pertinent question is â€œwhy can Japan have a deal without having to sign up for freedom of movement, have the EU make their laws for them or the EU stopping Japan from doing other deals around the world?â€
		
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Really?  Do you think after the last week or so there is some master plan that the ministers are all aware of about what is going to happen?  And Hobbit has answered the second bit above much more eloquently that I can.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 16, 2018)

Blimey, I've finally found it, a reasoned and sensible defence of leaving the EU from a Tory Minster.  Goes on a bit but they both make some good points.   Teresa, promote this man immediately.


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## Sweep (Dec 16, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Really?  Do you think after the last week or so there is some master plan that the ministers are all aware of about what is going to happen?  And Hobbit has answered the second bit above much more eloquently that I can.
		
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As I have said before, MPâ€™s from all parties are out of touch with their electorate in respect of the referendum decision. We have a remainer negotiating something she doesnâ€™t ultimately want or believe in, backed up by the Europe Department in No10 made up of remainers. This has sidelined the Minister for Exiting the EU and his department causing two to resign.
Despite all the rhetoric they have allowed the EU to push the negotiations to agree what they want without even discussing what the UK wants. The whole furore of the past few weeks has been about us entering into a legally binding agreement before trade talks begin. What happened to â€œ nothing is agreed until everything is agreedâ€?
To suggest this is all because we are in a weak negotiating position is frankly nonsense. The trade deficit and money on the table is evidence of this. 
Everyone on the leave side pretty much guaranteed this was going to happen. Many on here suggested the same thing. Itâ€™s clear that the governments position in order of preference is as follows:
1. Donâ€™t leave at all
2. Fudge it so we leave but donâ€™t actually leave at all.
3. Kick the can down the road for so long people will eventually forget.
4. Leave but tie us in, forever if possible.
5. If all else fails, give the people what they voted for.

The only reason they havenâ€™t ditched Brexit yet is because they need to work out how to best manage the fall out in terms of
1. In â€œone of the worlds greatest democraciesâ€ how can they get away with being so blatantly undemocratic, especially when we demand the same from other countries?
2. It would kill off what little respect people have for politicians and the peopleâ€™s engagement in politics, especially so soon after the record turnout in the Scottish Independence referendum. No one would ever vote again and the politicians wouldnâ€™t even able to moan about it.
3. There would be civil unrest and not just from the usual suspects.
4. The mainstream parties will suffer. Positions will become polarised and extreme parties on both ends of the spectrum will enjoy increased popularity. Maintaining the status quo of two big political parties is very close to the hearts of MPs. Trying to maintain this status quo is why we were afforded the referendum in the first place. UKIP needed to be sidelined.

Here we are 2.5 years later and in truth we havenâ€™t even started the process of leaving yet. That suggests to me that those in charge of taking us out are not really up for it.

I think most MPâ€™s and government officials just wish the whole Brexit thing would just go away. And I think they will do what they can to make that happen.


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## Sweep (Dec 16, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Blimey, I've finally found it, a reasoned and sensible defence of leaving the EU from a Tory Minster.  Goes on a bit but they both make some good points.   Teresa, promote this man immediately.







Click to expand...

It lost me when the presenter said the remain side was legal and the leave side was illegal like that was a fact. And that IDS said he could solve it all but didnâ€™t say how when IDS has been explicit in his explanation. Thatâ€™s 5 mins I will never get back.
As for the politician, all very fine words but seemingly all a bit idealistic (unless he came up with some defined solution on how he was going to bring about such a resolution later).
I am guessing he was working up to that fudge I mentioned.
All very â€œintelligentâ€ and reasoned but no substance and solves nothing.


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2018)

Sweep said:



			As I have said before, MPâ€™s from all parties are out of touch with their electorate in respect of the referendum decision. We have a remainer negotiating something she doesnâ€™t ultimately want or believe in, backed up by the Europe Department in No10 made up of remainers. This has sidelined the Minister for Exiting the EU and his department causing two to resign.
Despite all the rhetoric they have allowed the EU to push the negotiations to agree what they want without even discussing what the UK wants. The whole furore of the past few weeks has been about us entering into a legally binding agreement before trade talks begin. What happened to â€œ nothing is agreed until everything is agreedâ€?
To suggest this is all because we are in a weak negotiating position is frankly nonsense. The trade deficit and money on the table is evidence of this.
Everyone on the leave side pretty much guaranteed this was going to happen. Many on here suggested the same thing. Itâ€™s clear that the governments position in order of preference is as follows:
1. Donâ€™t leave at all
2. Fudge it so we leave but donâ€™t actually leave at all.
3. Kick the can down the road for so long people will eventually forget.
4. Leave but tie us in, forever if possible.
5. If all else fails, give the people what they voted for.

The only reason they havenâ€™t ditched Brexit yet is because they need to work out how to best manage the fall out in terms of
1. In â€œone of the worlds greatest democraciesâ€ how can they get away with being so blatantly undemocratic, especially when we demand the same from other countries?
2. It would kill off what little respect people have for politicians and the peopleâ€™s engagement in politics, especially so soon after the record turnout in the Scottish Independence referendum. No one would ever vote again and the politicians wouldnâ€™t even able to moan about it.
3. There would be civil unrest and not just from the usual suspects.
4. The mainstream parties will suffer. Positions will become polarised and extreme parties on both ends of the spectrum will enjoy increased popularity. Maintaining the status quo of two big political parties is very close to the hearts of MPs. Trying to maintain this status quo is why we were afforded the referendum in the first place. UKIP needed to be sidelined.

Here we are 2.5 years later and in truth we havenâ€™t even started the process of leaving yet. That suggests to me that those in charge of taking us out are not really up for it.

I think most MPâ€™s and government officials just wish the whole Brexit thing would just go away. And I think they will do what they can to make that happen.
		
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Or maybe May realises that to heal the rift in the UK a compromise deal is needed. Something that satisfies leave the CU and SM but stays tied very closely. 

As for big business's involvement, I'm really uncomfortable with it... exceptionally uncomfortable. On the one hand you have, let's say 200 major business leaders dictating how the country should be run. Is your vote not as good as there's? Is 17.xx million votes to be discounted because 200 business leaders say "no?" But, equally, without Corporation tax, employer's NI contributions and the wages that mean people aren't drawing the dole, the UK would be bankrupt.

The leap of faith that is Brexit, I refuse to dramatise it with "crash out" or "cliff edge," needs a huge amount of courage. Its not for me. Its far too risky. And from what I've seen in recent weeks its way beyond far too risky.

I think the UK could flourish outside the EU. It might take a few years and a few blips but the EU project is failing badly. Stay in and change it is my choice but, equally, that change is going to be have to be quick. Greece is beyond bankrupt, with Italy, Portugal, Spain not far behind. Further expenditure on vanity projects like an EU army is damn stupid, irrespective of whatever political drive there is behind it. Quantative easing has very recently come to an end. Mmm, serious crash ahead.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 16, 2018)

Some blue sky thinking which could possibly solve the Brexit problem and make everyone happy.


https://wingsoverscotland.com/independence-for-england/#comments


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## Sweep (Dec 16, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Or maybe May realises that to heal the rift in the UK a compromise deal is needed. Something that satisfies leave the CU and SM but stays tied very closely.

As for big business's involvement, I'm really uncomfortable with it... exceptionally uncomfortable. On the one hand you have, let's say 200 major business leaders dictating how the country should be run. Is your vote not as good as there's? Is 17.xx million votes to be discounted because 200 business leaders say "no?" But, equally, without Corporation tax, employer's NI contributions and the wages that mean people aren't drawing the dole, the UK would be bankrupt.

The leap of faith that is Brexit, I refuse to dramatise it with "crash out" or "cliff edge," needs a huge amount of courage. Its not for me. Its far too risky. And from what I've seen in recent weeks its way beyond far too risky.

I think the UK could flourish outside the EU. It might take a few years and a few blips but the EU project is failing badly. Stay in and change it is my choice but, equally, that change is going to be have to be quick. Greece is beyond bankrupt, with Italy, Portugal, Spain not far behind. Further expenditure on vanity projects like an EU army is damn stupid, irrespective of whatever political drive there is behind it. Quantative easing has very recently come to an end. Mmm, serious crash ahead.
		
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If I had believed the EU was capable of reform I would have voted remain. Sadly I donâ€™t believe it is and any change would need to be forced upon it. You could say that Brexit is the start of this.
To the contrary, in the last few weeks I have started to see that a no deal is nothing to fear to the extent we are led to believe. We trade the world over on WTA and trade well. I would like a deal with the EU as long as they want it too. I believe the people of the EU do for obvious reason. I think the powers that be have other priorities.


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2018)

Sweep said:



			If I had believed the EU was capable of reform I would have voted remain. Sadly I donâ€™t believe it is and any change would need to be forced upon it. You could say that Brexit is the start of this.
		
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You're right. I can't see Juncker and Barnier voting to end their domination.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 16, 2018)

Sweep said:



			If I had believed the EU was capable of reform I would have voted remain. Sadly I donâ€™t believe it is and any change would need to be forced upon it. You could say that Brexit is the start of this.
To the contrary, in the last few weeks I have started to see that a no deal is nothing to fear to the extent we are led to believe. We trade the world over on WTA and trade well. I would like a deal with the EU as long as they want it too. I believe the people of the EU do for obvious reason.* I think the powers that be have other priorities.*

Click to expand...

Another post that sums it up very well for me, with the bit I have bolded being the crux of the matter; Juncker, Barnier, Tusk _et al_ have their own agenda which has very little to do with what's best for EU citizens.


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2018)

Typical Spain, doing there own thing before the EU gets its act together. Just announced yesterday evening, British residents will keep their voting rights in local and national elections in Spain.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 17, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Genuine question to remainers:
Does it not concern you that the people running your campaign (including the government) did such a bad job pre referendum of highlighting the absolute disaster we face when leaving? Why didnâ€™t they tell us?
Here we are 2.5 years later and only this morning I have learned that Brexit will be worse for the UK than WW2 (Branson) and that we wonâ€™t be able to go on holiday ever again (Doon via the Times). It was only a couple of weeks ago I heard that we will run out of drinking water (in one of the wettest countries on the planet) and that we will have no medicine.
Why was none of this mentioned before we voted? Surely no-one would have voted for another WW2 and no holiday!

Second genuine question to remainers:
Do you actually believe this nonsense or are you embarrassed by it?
		
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It seems you/your quoted scenarios have fallen into the trap of gross exaggeration and an over simplification of what is often a nuanced story.  You can't have a sensible debate if all you do is quote the headlines of The Daily Express.  For example there was quite a good discussion about the drugs and the pharmaceutical industry this morning on Radio 5.  And it is a complicated industry and the potential impacts of Brexit could arguably only be fully understood once you have a decent understanding of how the industry works with regards to stockpiling, profiteering, NHS procurement, drugs in and out of patent etc. And after listening it is clear that brexit is having an impact but chances are we will not run out of all medicines, although some are becoming harder to source due to a number of intertwining factors, with Brexit being one of them.  But it is a very emotive subject if say you have cancer and you rely on cancer drugs to effectively keep you alive, so of course you will be concerned about any potential break in the supply of the drugs.

So yes if you believed Brexit would cause us to have no medicine or drinking water or whatever other disasters you've quoted then you need to research the claims a bit more. I suspect most of these stories are trying to sum up the more extreme ends of scenario planning that is going on in a neat newspaper headline. Planning is going on for the worst case scenario, as in a way that is easier to plan for as you can work out the implications as you know what the WTO rules are and what existing agreements will no longer be valid.  But I imagine there will also be lots of planning going on for some form of a deal, well there will be as soon as the government work out what that deal it.

And as a remainer I am not really embarrassed about the claims as I like to think I have some form of critical analysis and do not believe literally everything I read/hear if, on the surface, it looks like it backs up my argument.  In fact the more apocalyptic the claim the more I just filter them out as I know they are reductive garbage. If I'm embarrassed about anything it is the state this country has been reduced to and the rise of intolerance on the back of all this.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 17, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Another post that sums it up very well for me, with the bit I have bolded being the crux of the matter; Juncker, Barnier, Tusk _et al_* have their own agenda which has very little to do with what's best for EU citizens*.
		
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Probably some truth in that.  But then again substitute EU for UK in the highlighted bit you could make exactly the same argument about Rees-Mogg, Bojo, Leadsom, Hoey etc etc.  We are being poorly served by politicians of all hues, colours and creeds at the moment, Brexit may get rid of one layer if that is a big issue for people, but that problem will still exist and arguably getting more entrenched as opinions and ideologies polarise.


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## IanM (Dec 17, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Probably some truth in that.  But then again substitute EU for UK in the highlighted bit you could make exactly the same argument about Rees-Mogg, Bojo, Leadsom, Hoey etc etc.  We are being poorly served by politicians of all hues, colours and creeds at the moment, Brexit may get rid of one layer if that is a big issue for people, but that problem will still exist and arguably getting more entrenched as opinions and ideologies polarise.
		
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Or any politician?


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 17, 2018)

IanM said:



			Or any politician?
		
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Yes, as I said we are being poorly served by *all politicians*. Well actually I'd argue mostly those at ministerial level, or who like to believe they are at ministerial level (hello Rees-Mogg) as I do believe there are some good eggs below. My point was that getting rid of the EU as you are concerned that they have their own agenda and do not care that much about what is best for the majority of the people they govern, but then getting the type of politician that rises to the top nowadays, is kind of the classic frying pan fire scenario.  Especially as the current favourite to replace May when she goes shortly is BoJo.

If you get rid of the EU and Corbyn comes to power then, whilst I can get on board with some of his policies more than I can the Tories, the principle is still the same.


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## IanM (Dec 17, 2018)

Corbyn in power?  Now that's an element of "project fear" that really does scare me!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 17, 2018)

IanM said:



			Corbyn in power?  Now that's an element of "project fear" that really does scare me! 

Click to expand...

I think the phrase is 'you'll only have yourself to blame'.....


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## IanM (Dec 17, 2018)

I dont get that many votes!   I am not a Trade Union!


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## MegaSteve (Dec 17, 2018)

IanM said:



			Corbyn in power?  Now that's an element of "project fear" that really does scare me! 

Click to expand...

I would suggest that for many the thought of BoJo in charge of the madhouse will be an equally frightening thought...

He's not even exactly Mr popular in his own constituency...


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## Old Skier (Dec 17, 2018)

Things getting more interesting on the main land with factions of the Yellow Vests now looking at starting a movement to get out of the EU and the Italians not over happy https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/italy-pinning-the-blame-on-brussels/ar-BBR0UZ7?ocid=spartandhp

Now we can clearly see why the powers to be in the EU are starting to worry about their golden nest egg.


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## Old Skier (Dec 17, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			I would suggest that for many the thought of BoJo in charge of the madhouse will be an equally frightening thought...

He's not even exactly Mr popular in his own constituency...
		
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Not sure many are proving popular in their own or other constituencies.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 17, 2018)

this is worth a listen :

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...errari-tells-second-referendum-mp-id-fire-th/


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Things getting more interesting on the main land with factions of the Yellow Vests now looking at starting a movement to get out of the EU and the Italians not over happy https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/italy-pinning-the-blame-on-brussels/ar-BBR0UZ7?ocid=spartandhp

Now we can clearly see why the powers to be in the EU are starting to worry about their golden nest egg.
		
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Coincidently, I was reading a piece by an Italian economist in the early hours - man flu, coughing and spluttering, and banished to the back room. He said something very similar about the not level playing field the British have experienced. Basically, its all well and good the EU funding improvements in production in some little backwater of Europe but that doesn't do the producers in Northern Europe any favours. The backwater has lower running costs/wages but has a production facility on a par, or probably newer, than those in Northern Europe. His view being that the Northern European countries need subsidies to be able to compete with the facilities in Southern Europe.

It may lift that country off the bottom rung but it drives the northern European companies out of business. That leads to a shortages of taxes for the Northern European countries and an increased benefits bill.

I know from personal experience the German multi national I worked for closed several production lines in the UK and Germany, moving the work to the Czech Republic. It was cheaper to close those factories in northern Europe, and pay the redundancies whilst taking EU grants to open new production lines in the Czech Republic.


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## IanM (Dec 17, 2018)

The list of organisations that have moved from "north-western" Europe to Eastern Europe using *EU Grants *makes interesting reading...  nice to know our taxes are being used to throw workers on the Dole!


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Coincidently, I was reading a piece by an Italian economist in the early hours - man flu, coughing and spluttering, and banished to the back room. He said something very similar about the not level playing field the British have experienced. Basically, its all well and good the EU funding improvements in production in some little backwater of Europe but that doesn't do the producers in Northern Europe any favours. The backwater has lower running costs/wages but has a production facility on a par, or probably newer, than those in Northern Europe. His view being that the Northern European countries need subsidies to be able to compete with the facilities in Southern Europe.

It may lift that country off the bottom rung but it drives the northern European companies out of business. That leads to a shortages of taxes for the Northern European countries and an increased benefits bill.

I know from personal experience the German multi national I worked for closed several production lines in the UK and Germany, moving the work to the Czech Republic. It was cheaper to close those factories in northern Europe, and pay the redundancies whilst taking EU grants to open new production lines in the Czech Republic.
		
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Such interferences through grants and other economic instruments always causes a race to the bottom.


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Typical Spain, doing there own thing before the EU gets its act together. Just announced yesterday evening, British residents will keep their voting rights in local and national elections in Spain.
		
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And as if by magic, from the Costa Almeria News today. Wonder if the EU are happy with the bilateral agreement.

Spain and UK set to give each other's residents abroad post-Brexit voting rights in local elections
Madrid and London are finalising a bilateral agreement that will give British residents in Spain and Spanish residents in the UK the right to vote in post-Brexit local elections in the country they live in.
Spain and Britainâ€™s governments have decided to streamline a deal that will protect the rights of its expat citizens in either country post March 29th, the day the UK leaves the EU.
The bilateral agreement will guarantee that Brits in Spain and Spaniards in the UK can continue to vote in local elections, or elecciones municipales as they are known in Spain.
Until now, Britainâ€™s impending break-away from the EU was set to leave both groups without any voting rights in their country of residence, whereas as part of the bloc, registered residents even had the right to stand as candidates in local elections.
There are in fact currently 37 locally elected British town and city councillors in Spain, mostly in Comunidad Valenciana and Andalusia, the two Spanish regions with the highest number of British residents.
The current negotiation will ensure that the 280,000 Brits officially residing in Spain keep these two rights and will be able place their ballots - or stand - in Spainâ€™s next local elections in May 2019.
Thatâ€™s regardless of whether or not thereâ€™s a no-deal Brexit scenario which causes Brits to lose their EU rights as of March 30th 2019, rather than in December 2020, the month in which the transition breakaway period is scheduled to end in the event of a deal.
This deal is of course a reciprocal one which will be treated as an international treaty that has to be ratified by Spain and Britainâ€™s parliaments.
According to leading Spanish daily El PaÃ­s, the agreement is being â€œnegotiated at top speedâ€ between May and SÃ¡nchezâ€™s government but diplomatic sources did tell the paper itâ€™s unlikely to be approved and ready in time for Spainâ€™s local elections on May 26, 2019.
Spainâ€™s Ministry of Foreign Affairs is therefore prepared for the agreement to come into action in a provisional sense as soon as the initial frame line is agreed upon.
Spanish Minister of Foreign Affairs Josep Borrell is also calling on the UK Embassy in Madrid to encourage the â€œseveral tens of thousandsâ€ of Brits in Spain who arenâ€™t registered yet to do so in order to guarantee that they are protected by other contingency plans set to be rolled out including residency, health and work post Brexit in Spain.
For this the UK must deliver the same rights to the 115,000 Spaniards residing in â€œGran BretaÃ±aâ€.
Spain's local elections next May will determine what councillors are chosen in the country's 8,116 municipalities and what seats political parties hold in the 38 provincial councils.
The municipal elections will be held simultaneously with regional elections in most of Spain's autonomous communities.


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## IanM (Dec 17, 2018)

Spain could find itself in serious trouble with Brussels for acting like a Sovereign Country!!

In other news, the Radio News this morning mentioned early holiday bookings for Turkey and Eastern Med up considerably, while those to Spain and Portugal down similar proportion.   I expect some broadcasters will miss out the first half of that report!


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## PieMan (Dec 17, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			And as if by magic, from the Costa Almeria News today. Wonder if the EU are happy with the bilateral agreement.

Spain and UK set to give each other's residents abroad post-Brexit voting rights in local elections
Madrid and London are finalising a bilateral agreement that will give British residents in Spain and Spanish residents in the UK the right to vote in post-Brexit local elections in the country they live in.
Spain and Britainâ€™s governments have decided to streamline a deal that will protect the rights of its expat citizens in either country post March 29th, the day the UK leaves the EU.
The bilateral agreement will guarantee that Brits in Spain and Spaniards in the UK can continue to vote in local elections, or elecciones municipales as they are known in Spain.
Until now, Britainâ€™s impending break-away from the EU was set to leave both groups without any voting rights in their country of residence, whereas as part of the bloc, registered residents even had the right to stand as candidates in local elections.
There are in fact currently 37 locally elected British town and city councillors in Spain, mostly in Comunidad Valenciana and Andalusia, the two Spanish regions with the highest number of British residents.
The current negotiation will ensure that the 280,000 Brits officially residing in Spain keep these two rights and will be able place their ballots - or stand - in Spainâ€™s next local elections in May 2019.
Thatâ€™s regardless of whether or not thereâ€™s a no-deal Brexit scenario which causes Brits to lose their EU rights as of March 30th 2019, rather than in December 2020, the month in which the transition breakaway period is scheduled to end in the event of a deal.
This deal is of course a reciprocal one which will be treated as an international treaty that has to be ratified by Spain and Britainâ€™s parliaments.
According to leading Spanish daily El PaÃ­s, the agreement is being â€œnegotiated at top speedâ€ between May and SÃ¡nchezâ€™s government but diplomatic sources did tell the paper itâ€™s unlikely to be approved and ready in time for Spainâ€™s local elections on May 26, 2019.
Spainâ€™s Ministry of Foreign Affairs is therefore prepared for the agreement to come into action in a provisional sense as soon as the initial frame line is agreed upon.
Spanish Minister of Foreign Affairs Josep Borrell is also calling on the UK Embassy in Madrid to encourage the â€œseveral tens of thousandsâ€ of Brits in Spain who arenâ€™t registered yet to do so in order to guarantee that they are protected by other contingency plans set to be rolled out including residency, health and work post Brexit in Spain.
For this the UK must deliver the same rights to the 115,000 Spaniards residing in â€œGran BretaÃ±aâ€.
Spain's local elections next May will determine what councillors are chosen in the country's 8,116 municipalities and what seats political parties hold in the 38 provincial councils.
The municipal elections will be held simultaneously with regional elections in most of Spain's autonomous communities.
		
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Another point you forgot to highlight Brian - how quickly and efficiently 2 nations can agree something bilaterally without having to worry about trying to find a compromise with 26 other countries................!!


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2018)

PieMan said:



			Another point you forgot to highlight Brian - how quickly and efficiently 2 nations can agree something bilaterally without having to worry about trying to find a compromise with 26 other countries................!!

Click to expand...

We get to hear snippets over here that doesn't make the UK news. I guess there's lots going behind the scenes, e.g. Spanish minister for tourism has said Brits will be welcome after Brexit without any obstacles being put in the way. 

We were in the town hall last week, and in our solicitors this morning finalising residencia. They're over the moon to have us, and couldn't be more helpful and welcoming - they obviously don't know us very well!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 17, 2018)

Labour have finally realised that if they do not bring a 'no confidence in government' vote they will be even less popular come election time.

Looks like things are about to get very interesting, given the timing, once they have won the election, Labour will have about 20 days to come up with a new plan.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 17, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Labour have finally realised that if they do not bring a 'no confidence in government' vote they will be even less popular come election time.

Looks like things are about to get very interesting, given the timing, once they have won the election, Labour will have about 20 days to come up with a new plan.
		
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Not entirely sure the lack of a no confidence motion will be the biggest electoral reason that will impact people voting for Labour or not.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 17, 2018)

Also not so sure Labour will win anything, taken from twitter: -

 Standard vote: Con 40% Lab 36% LD 10% Other 14%
"Imagine Cons backed delivering Brexit, Lab/LD backed public vote" Con 44% Lab 36% LD 11% Other 8%
"Imagine Cons AND Lab backed Brexit, LD backed public vote" Con 42% LD 26% Lab 22% Other 10%
YouGov Dec14

Assuming you believe opinion polls.


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## chrisd (Dec 17, 2018)

I wonder- if Labour were able to unseat the Tory's with a no confidence vote would the "let's have another vote" mob keep quiet and see what the plan then becomes, or would they still push on regardless?


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## IanM (Dec 17, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Labour have finally realised that if they do not bring a 'no confidence in government' vote they will be even less popular come election time.

Looks like things are about to get very interesting, given the timing, once they have won the election, Labour will have about 20 days to come up with a new plan.
		
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That's harsh...they have had a plan in place..... for about 70 years!  Tax and Spend!  Increase red tape.  But this time it'll include Ref 2 and cancel Brexit.   Whereas the Tories are still split on the EU.   IF Leave win a second time, we'll have a 3rd Referendum too! 

And those Polls are a real suprise!  Polls eh?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 17, 2018)

President Juncker will be able to afford a many more boozy lunches in 2019. As a result of a Christmas pay rise, from January bureaucrats in the EU will be paid more than â‚¬20,000 a month, Commissioners will be paid â‚¬26,600 a month, and President Juncker will be paid a whopping  â‚¬32,700 a month.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 17, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not entirely sure the lack of a no confidence motion will be the biggest electoral reason that will impact people voting for Labour or not.
		
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Despite what the polls say I think Labour would romp a GE.
Can you just imagine how much ammo the opposition parties would have during the hustings.

MP's now behaving in a manner that would get them thrown out of a P6 classroom.
Fellow Tory MP's bellowing away against each other. I wonder if they will field two candidates for each constituency


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			President Juncker will be able to afford a many more boozy lunches in 2019. As a result of a Christmas pay rise, from January bureaucrats in the EU will be paid more than â‚¬20,000 a month, Commissioners will be paid â‚¬26,600 a month, and President Juncker will be paid a whopping  â‚¬32,700 a month.



Click to expand...

Its only money,  earnt by someone else - easy come, easy go!


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## Old Skier (Dec 17, 2018)

From the man that believed that Scotland would become independent


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 17, 2018)

Corbyn withdraws no confidence vote.
That's the UK well and truly stuffed now, buckle up for a blind Brexit.


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## Old Skier (Dec 17, 2018)

Perhaps if you had read the whole statement behind the confidence vote you wouldnt, as normal, have jumped the gun.


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## Slime (Dec 17, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Labour have finally realised that if they do not bring a 'no confidence in government' vote they will be even less popular come election time.

Looks like things are about to get very interesting, given the timing, once they have won the election, Labour will have about 20 days to come up with a new plan.
		
Click to expand...

 You really are priceless.


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not entirely sure the lack of a no confidence motion will be the biggest electoral reason that will impact people voting for Labour or not.
		
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Whilst Corbyn and McDonnell(Himmler) are at the top table, please no. If they were gone, and Labour were a bit more centrist they would get my vote, assuming I could vote.


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## Old Skier (Dec 17, 2018)

The UK has negotiated an agreement to stay in the Common Transit Convention (CTC) even if there is no Brexit deal between the two sides. This means that goods can continue to be transported freely between the UK and the EEA with customs declarations and import duties only being paid when the goods arrive at their final destination. It is particularly important for the Republic of Ireland which transports the majority of its exports to the EU across the UK â€œland bridgeâ€. _More evidence that sensible contingency deals will be signed in a â€œmanaged no dealâ€ scenarioâ€¦_


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 17, 2018)

I think I said it before - it shows how bad Labour are when they still canâ€™t even imo get in ahead of prob the worst Tory party in decades. With the IRA sympathiser Corbyn and his buddy in charge I believe that Labour are unelectable.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 17, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			The UK has negotiated an agreement to stay in the Common Transit Convention (CTC) even if there is no Brexit deal between the two sides. This means that goods can continue to be transported freely between the UK and the EEA with customs declarations and import duties only being paid when the goods arrive at their final destination. It is particularly important for the Republic of Ireland which transports the majority of its exports to the EU across the UK â€œland bridgeâ€. _More evidence that sensible contingency deals will be signed in a â€œmanaged no dealâ€ scenarioâ€¦_

Click to expand...

Don't suppose you can give us the link to the article/website you've pasted that from? Is it a potential solution to the Irish border problem?


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## Old Skier (Dec 17, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Don't suppose you can give us the link to the article/website you've pasted that from? Is it a potential solution to the Irish border problem?
		
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Sorry, it came of a twitter feed and I can't work out how to post the link.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 17, 2018)

This interview went well !!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1074710106212847624


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## spongebob59 (Dec 17, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Sorry, it came of a twitter feed and I can't work out how to post the link.
		
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https://order-order.com/2018/12/17/...n-even-no-deal/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


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## Slime (Dec 17, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			This interview went well !!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1074710106212847624

Click to expand...

To be fair, she didn't exactly give him much opportunity to speak, did she?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 17, 2018)

Slime said:



			To be fair, she didn't exactly give him much opportunity to speak, did she?
		
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Maybe she should be having the conversation with her party leader ðŸ˜‰


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 17, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



https://order-order.com/2018/12/17/...n-even-no-deal/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

OK, thanks, by reading the majority of comments below the line it is pretty clear where he's coming from. Some comments say it will shut the traitors up for ever and some say it means virtually nothing. Still none the wiser if it will help with the Irish border issue at all.


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## Sweep (Dec 18, 2018)

Slime said:



			To be fair, she didn't exactly give him much opportunity to speak, did she?
		
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Whilst the arguing is embarrassing itâ€™s Kay Burleyâ€™s job to moderate the discussion. She has made no secret of her feelings on Europe, especially in regard to UKIP as you will see if you follow her twitter feed. So I am not surprised she didnâ€™t intervene and took the ladyâ€™s side afterwards.
As a leaver I am obviously more sensitive to her view, but to be honest I wouldnâ€™t be happy at all if such presenters extolled views similar to mine. I believe certain broadcasters should be impartial and I think itâ€™s unprofessional and unacceptable when they use their position to broadcast their view.
Now, I say â€œsuch broadcastersâ€ because I fully accept that some people in the media, particularly in the press and on radio actually build their content around their view. The viewer / listener / reader knows what they are going to get. However, I think it is disingenuous to pretend you are impartial when your content and behaviour prove you are anything but. Jon Snow is the prime example and he has given up any pretence. How any leaver can expect fair treatment on Channel 4 news is beyond me. Which adversely affects the program, which is why itâ€™s unprofessional.


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## Sweep (Dec 18, 2018)

Watched a re-run of Question Time from 1997 on BBC Parliament last night. Filmed just before the General Election. Tony Benn, Ted Heath, Fredrick Forsyth, Liz Lynne for the Lib Dems. 
A few interesting points.
Politicians were a lot more polite to one another and let the other speak.
Labour were convinced the Tories were going to privatise the NHS.
The Tories backed privatisation but not for everything and especially not social care.
A YOUNG woman in the audience said she was too young to vote in the 75 referendum and it was time her generation had a say as it was their future. She wanted to leave.
No-one trusted the politicians.
Two topics dominated. Europe and Social Care.

Make of that what you will...


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2018)

She wouldn't stop talking/interupting him and instead of getting angry he said while you have your rant, I'll check my phone. KB didn't like that and girls together butted in telling him off.
Very unprofessional.


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## Mrs Wiggles (Dec 18, 2018)

Just picking up on the Brexit debate, but have no wish to read back through all the posts.

I voted leave, and believe this is the best mid to long term decision for the country. We simply can't carry on allowing in millions of EU citizens when we don't have the homes for our own people. This has artificially driven up house prices and held back wages. The whole concept of the freedom of movement  is crazy. Needless to say, having little control of our own laws, and financially supporting poorer EU countries also drives me mad. 

The Labour party have used this entire situation for their own political needs, and appear to have no genuine interest in the country. TM is in an impossible situation, as a hard Brexit upsets the remainers and moderate Brexiteers, and the EU offer upsets the hard Brexiteers. In short, she is dammed if she does, and dammed if she doesn't. By changing the leader WILL NOT change what is on the table. 

The country voted leave, and leave is what we must do. The EU offer will not change, so parliament now needs to decide, hard Brexit, or negotiated deal. Anything else is for political gain, and the idiots who are making our country look a laughing stock should be ashamed


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Just picking up on the Brexit debate, but have no wish to read back through all the posts.

I voted leave, and believe this is the best mid to long term decision for the country. We simply can't carry on allowing in millions of EU citizens when we don't have the homes for our own people. This has artificially driven up house prices and held back wages. The whole concept of the freedom of movement  is crazy. Needless to say, having little control of our own laws, and financially supporting poorer EU countries also drives me mad.

The Labour party have used this entire situation for their own political needs, and appear to have no genuine interest in the country. TM is in an impossible situation, as a hard Brexit upsets the remainers and moderate Brexiteers, and the EU offer upsets the hard Brexiteers. In short, she is dammed if she does, and dammed if she doesn't. By changing the leader WILL NOT change what is on the table.

The country voted leave, and leave is what we must do. The EU offer will not change, so parliament now needs to decide, hard Brexit, or negotiated deal. Anything else is for political gain, and the idiots who are making our country look a laughing stock should be ashamed
		
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I agree with almost everything you have posted here.  I just don't like the term 'Hard Brexit'  IMO it's just Brexit. Leaving without a 'Deal' can be managed and things that are of a mutual benefit can be either added at this stage or later.   If we left without a deal then IMO life could go on pretty much as normal, the main issue would be whether either side would want to apply  quotas or tariffs. I think the EU would have to as it must treat all countries the same with WTO rules, the UK would be free to have what ever tariffs it wanted, zero if it suited.   A free trade arrangement could then be made similar to the ones that have been made with the likes of Canada, Japan etc and it shouldn't be difficult to arrange as we are all using the same standards at the moment.

There of course will be some areas where we will be worse off and some organisations will find it harder to do business, just like some will be better off and will find more business opportunities.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2018)

bobmac said:



			She wouldn't stop talking/interupting him and instead of getting angry he said while you have your rant, I'll check my phone. KB didn't like that and girls together butted in telling him off.
Very unprofessional.
		
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Kay Burley is awful. I can't watch anything with her on it.

Sky have some very good presenters, the breakfast crew are all excellent for example, but KB is not one of them.


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2018)

bobmac said:



			She wouldn't stop talking/interupting him and instead of getting angry he said while you have your rant, I'll check my phone. KB didn't like that and girls together butted in telling him off.
Very unprofessional.
		
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Wow!

What an appalling interview. I think him walking off as he did emphasised how appalling it was. Good on him. I hope her producers had a word.

As for sticking her finger, repeatedly in his face... do that to me in an aggressive manner and I'll snap it off.


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not entirely sure the lack of a no confidence motion will be the biggest electoral reason that will impact people voting for Labour or not.
		
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I think Corbyn bottled it. When something more than talking is required he just seems ... inadequate. Fence sitting again. Oh for a decent opposition!


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I think Corbyn bottled it. When something more than talking is required he just seems ... inadequate. Fence sitting again. Oh for a decent opposition!
		
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He would he dare to bring a no confidence vote.  It would mean Mays deal would get through.  Non of those self serving politicians want to lose there jobs and a fair few wouldn't get re-elected so their only chance of staying would be to vote in favour of her deal?


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			He would he dare to bring a no confidence vote.  It would mean Mays deal would get through.  Non of those self serving politicians want to lose there jobs and a fair few wouldn't get re-elected so their only chance of staying would be to vote in favour of her deal?
		
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I'd expect all the Tories + the DUP would vote for May in the vote Corbyn asked for. But that isn't the "meaningful vote" on the deal is it?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 18, 2018)

Spot on

https://amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...ak-brexit-deadlock/?__twitter_impression=true


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## jp5 (Dec 18, 2018)

It's a lazy slight to make against MPs, but ultimately nothing would change if they didn't take two weeks off. Let's just enjoy the one time of year there won't be any day to day Brexit nonsense.


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2018)

jp5 said:



			It's a lazy slight to make against MPs, but ultimately nothing would change if they didn't take two weeks off. Let's just enjoy the *one time of year* there won't be any day to day Brexit nonsense.
		
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You mean the 217 days off per year they get (31 weeks)


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## spongebob59 (Dec 18, 2018)

spongebob59 said:



			President Juncker will be able to afford a many more boozy lunches in 2019. As a result of a Christmas pay rise, from January bureaucrats in the EU will be paid more than â‚¬20,000 a month, Commissioners will be paid â‚¬26,600 a month, and President Juncker will be paid a whopping  â‚¬32,700 a month.



Click to expand...

Looks like he's started early :

https://www.oe24.at/welt/Neuer-Wirbel-um-Jean-Claude-Juncker/360325586


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## jp5 (Dec 18, 2018)

bobmac said:



			You mean the 217 days off per year they get (31 weeks)
		
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Err, no - the political machine rumbles on over that time and responsible MPs will be carrying out constituency work. 

Strange to include weekend days as "weeks off", jobs would look a lot more appealing if holiday was advertised that way - 20 weeks off a year!


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Err, no - the political machine rumbles on over that time and responsible MPs will be carrying out constituency work.

Strange to include weekend days as "weeks off", jobs would look a lot more appealing if holiday was advertised that way - 20 weeks off a year!
		
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But they actually only sit in Westminster 148 days per year.
Nurses get 35 days holiday per year


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## drdel (Dec 18, 2018)

bobmac said:



			But they actually only sit in Westminster 148 days per year.
Nurses get 35 days holiday per year
		
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They do their 'local' clinics and committee work. etc: in all honesty most work pretty hard.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 18, 2018)

Get signing lads, you know it makes sense..... https://petition.parliament.uk/peti...fnvjpVE3dREHRnnlfbhVmeQizectBbrQO81g2W7PoHG2Y


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## drdel (Dec 18, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Get signing lads, you know it makes sense..... https://petition.parliament.uk/peti...fnvjpVE3dREHRnnlfbhVmeQizectBbrQO81g2W7PoHG2Y

Click to expand...

Only another 16m to go..


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			Get signing lads, you know it makes sense..... https://petition.parliament.uk/peti...fnvjpVE3dREHRnnlfbhVmeQizectBbrQO81g2W7PoHG2Y

Click to expand...

What exactly is tbe point of it ?

Those petitions are for getting the parliament to talk about issues that are ignored or not mentioned - get enough people signing it and they will discuss it 

So itâ€™s a petition to ask the government to talk about something they have no doubt already spoken about - and it seems they have already responded 

â€œ
*Government responded*
This response was given on 14 December 2018
The deal that we have reached with the EU is the right one for the United Kingdom. Leaving without a deal would risk uncertainty for the economy, for business and for citizens.​
So thatâ€™s it - the petition has no meaning now


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 18, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Just picking up on the Brexit debate, but have no wish to read back through all the posts.

I voted leave, and believe this is the best mid to long term decision for the country. We simply can't carry on allowing in millions of EU citizens when we don't have the homes for our own people. This has artificially driven up house prices and held back wages. The whole concept of the freedom of movement  is crazy. Needless to say, having little control of our own laws, and financially supporting poorer EU countries also drives me mad. 

The Labour party have used this entire situation for their own political needs, and appear to have no genuine interest in the country. TM is in an impossible situation, as a hard Brexit upsets the remainers and moderate Brexiteers, and the EU offer upsets the hard Brexiteers. In short, she is dammed if she does, and dammed if she doesn't. By changing the leader WILL NOT change what is on the table. 

The country voted leave, and leave is what we must do. The EU offer will not change, so parliament now needs to decide, hard Brexit, or negotiated deal. Anything else is for political gain, and the idiots who are making our country look a laughing stock should be ashamed
		
Click to expand...

Well said, this is possibly the best post on this entire thread ðŸ‘


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 18, 2018)

The Scots MP's have to handle this ignorant arrogant semi racist rubbish from the Tories each time they stand up to speak in Westminster.

Better together, I think not.
And some still question why we would prefer Brussels to London.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075043470841167877


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## Papas1982 (Dec 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Scots MP's have to handle this ignorant arrogant semi racist rubbish from the Tories each time they stand up to speak in Westminster.

Better together, I think not.
And some still question why *we* would prefer Brussels to London.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075043470841167877

Click to expand...

Is this *WE *You refer to the minority that voted for independence?


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Scots MP's have to handle this ignorant arrogant semi racist rubbish from the Tories each time they stand up to speak in Westminster.

Better together, I think not.
And some still question why we would prefer Brussels to London.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075043470841167877

Click to expand...

Sounds like you when you blah blah blah about the RUK. Pot and kettle comes to mind.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 18, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Is this *WE *You refer to the minority that voted for independence?
		
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An awful lot has happened since Sept 2014 some of it even the day after the result.
Probably a majority now if not anytime soon.....just after Tories and Labour eat themselves. tic toc.

BTW.....Why did you not comment on the behaviour of Soames, is that regarded as acceptable to you?


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## Papas1982 (Dec 18, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			An awful lot has happened since Sept 2014 some of it even the day after the result.
Probably a majority now if not anytime soon.....just after Tories and Labour eat themselves. tic toc.

BTW.....Why did you not comment on the behaviour of Soames, is that regarded as acceptable to you?
		
Click to expand...

A quick google showed me that a lot has changed since 2014. In fact the lasted polls showed it 60/40 in regards to remaining with the uk. 

As to his behaviour. They all jeer one another disrespectfully tbh, the context of  what they say is largely irrelevant Imo.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 18, 2018)

Well I for one am pleased that we are putting 3500 military personnel on standby just in case of a hard Brexit.  Not entirely sure why we would think we need military personnel on standby for something that is apparently such a good thing for the country according to some folks.  Perhaps it will be to assist with all the street parties that will be breaking out in celebration.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 18, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well I for one am pleased that we are putting 3500 military personnel on standby just in case of a hard Brexit.  Not entirely sure why we would think we need military personnel on standby for something that is apparently such a good thing for the country according to some folks.  Perhaps it will be to assist with all the street parties that will be breaking out in celebration.  

Click to expand...

Obviously to hold hand with all the mild mannered remainers who will wish to celebrate the success of democracy.


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## IainP (Dec 18, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well I for one am pleased that we are putting 3500 military personnel on standby just in case of a hard Brexit.  Not entirely sure why we would think we need military personnel on standby for something that is apparently such a good thing for the country according to some folks.  Perhaps it will be to assist with all the street parties that will be breaking out in celebration.  

Click to expand...

Maybe they spotted you ironing your yellow vest


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## Tashyboy (Dec 18, 2018)

Just outta interest, I said months ago that I cannot see how a deal, any deal can get through. I said months ago we will be leaving the EU with no deal. I still believe that. I still believe the Tories know there is a way forward without any deal. So is anyone actually Suprised that at the moment, No deal seems to be the only deal that's gonna happen. Unless someone at the EU starts  passing bricks from there back end and back tracks on a few issues.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 18, 2018)

Papas1982 said:



			Obviously to hold hand with all the mild mannered remainers who will wish to celebrate the success of democracy.
		
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You could be right as there's no better sign of a healthy democracy than 3500 military personnel being put on standby to deal with the potential adverse impact of said democracy.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 18, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			You could be right as there's no better sign of a healthy democracy than 3500 military personnel being put standby to deal with the potential adverse impact of said emocracy.
		
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However, where the government to give a second vote because some people cannot grasp the simple concept of democracy. I think more than 3,500 soldiers would be required.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 18, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			However, where the government to give a second vote because some people cannot grasp the simple concept of democracy. I think more than 3,500 soldiers would be required.
		
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Or they get up set that the deal gets signed or remain happens... no deal is going to be unpalatable to the majority, even those who want to leave. Whether you think itâ€™s scaremongering or not the stock exchange will record a drop ( it usually does as they are a sensitive bunch) and there will be other impacts which no one has even discussed positive or negative.. 
Fingers crossed those of us who have been dragged into this omnishambles are not affected negatively.


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## Pants (Dec 18, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Whether you think itâ€™s scaremongering or not the stock exchange will record a drop ( it usually does as they are a sensitive bunch) and there will be other impacts which no one has even discussed positive or negative..
		
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Quite right. The City folk are a sensitive bunch.  That's why the possible downside of Brexit (in or out) has been factored in for the last couple of years.  The recent additional fall from the FTSE's dizzy heights is more to do with what has been happening in the grand old US of A.  If I had any spare cash, I would consider investing now.

Please do NOT consider this advice.  It is only my opinion and I am NOT qualified to give financial advice.  Remember that the value of investments .... blah, blah, blah ...........


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## Slime (Dec 18, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Or they get up set that the deal gets signed or remain happens... no deal is going to be unpalatable to the majority, even those who want to leave. Whether you think itâ€™s scaremongering or not* the stock exchange will record a drop *( it usually does as they are a sensitive bunch) and there will be other impacts which no one has even discussed positive or negative..
Fingers crossed those of us who have been dragged into this omnishambles are not affected negatively.
		
Click to expand...

Of course it will ............................ and then it will rise again, but I think you already know that.


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## jp5 (Dec 19, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			However, where the government to give a second vote because some people cannot grasp the simple concept of democracy. I think more than 3,500 soldiers would be required.
		
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Britain must be the only example in history where people are threatening riots if there's more democracy.


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## Mudball (Dec 19, 2018)

A genuine question to the Leavers ...    Are you happy that Britian leaves without a Deal?  or is there a sense of doubt/dissatisfaction/guilt squirreling away in your tummy?


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## oxymoron (Dec 19, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Britain must be the only example in history where people are threatening riots if there's more democracy.
		
Click to expand...

Where has it been stated there will be riots ? Not having a go at you but there's enough scaremongering without this i think we need to step back a little from all 
the scare stories\theories and stuff its getting repetitive and serves no one.

As for democracy , i don't think its democratic to keep having votes until one section gets what it wants because it lost the first time , there will always be someone who is 
upset at an outcome , we should just move on and make the best job we can , i mean if an election was run tomorrow can i ask for a re-vote if i dont like the result ?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Britain must be the only example in history where people are threatening riots if there's more democracy.
		
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Dont think anyone from the brexit camp has threatened riots yet, having a second vote in my eyes is not â€œmore democracyâ€, its people being unable to accept democracy in the first place.


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## Beezerk (Dec 19, 2018)

Mudball said:



			A genuine question to the Leavers ...    Are you happy that Britian leaves without a Deal?  or is there a sense of doubt/dissatisfaction/guilt squirreling away in your tummy?
		
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If we leave without a deal then the politicians have failed us, but I donâ€™t think weâ€™ll leave without a deal anyway, and no thereâ€™s no guilt etc here.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2018)

Mudball said:



			A genuine question to the Leavers ...    Are you happy that Britian leaves without a Deal?  or is there a sense of doubt/dissatisfaction/guilt squirreling away in your tummy?
		
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Chuffed to bits. As stated i dint see how a deal was ever going to be done. If it was good for the UK it would if been rejected by the EU.


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## Slime (Dec 19, 2018)

Mudball said:



			A genuine question to the Leavers ...    Are you happy that Britian leaves without a Deal?  or is there a sense of doubt/dissatisfaction/guilt squirreling away in your tummy?
		
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Yes ............................ without doubt/dissatisfaction/guilt of any kind.


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## Hobbit (Dec 19, 2018)

Mudball said:



			A genuine question to the Leavers ...    Are you happy that Britian leaves without a Deal?  or is there a sense of doubt/dissatisfaction/guilt squirreling away in your tummy?
		
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I don't want to Leave at all. Equally, I wasn't expecting anything like a nice Deal. But at the end of the day there is WTO, which is a structure for Dealing(trading). All the "cliff edge" and "crashing out" is just an exaggeration. Terms, under WTO, already exist. Add to that the interdependencies and contracts already in place across the EU. Both sides will continue talking for years to come, and deals will be agreed. They won't be as good as being a member of the club but, equally, the UK joins a new club, i.e. a free trading club, which will no doubt have benefits we don't yet know about.


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## IanM (Dec 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I don't want to Leave at all. Equally, I wasn't expecting anything like a nice Deal. But at the end of the day there is WTO, which is a structure for Dealing(trading). All the "cliff edge" and "crashing out" is just an exaggeration. Terms, under WTO, already exist. Add to that the interdependencies and contracts already in place across the EU. Both sides will continue talking for years to come, and deals will be agreed. They won't be as good as being a member of the club but, equally, the UK joins a new club, i.e. a free trading club, which will no doubt have benefits we don't yet know about.
		
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Congrats on a really rational and objective post!   Sadly lacking in much of the pre and post Ref commentary


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2018)

To those who prefer the EU rather than the UK democratic 'rule' I'd like to look at the member states whole have elected governments which have then been ordered to ignore their election promises...
Italy, not allowed to budget.
Hungary,
Poland
Greece etc.
The national politics have been over-ruled by the largely unelected 'centre'. IMO explains much of the unrest and populist growth - France is pretty unhappy!


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 19, 2018)

Mudball said:



			A genuine question to the Leavers ...    Are you happy that Britian leaves without a Deal?  or is there a sense of doubt/dissatisfaction/guilt squirreling away in your tummy?
		
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Rather No Deal than Theresa May's dog's dinner deal.


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 19, 2018)

Mudball said:



			A genuine question to the Leavers ...    Are you happy that Britian leaves without a Deal?  or is there a sense of doubt/dissatisfaction/guilt squirreling away in your tummy?
		
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According to some, all we'll do is put WTO things in to effect. No problem...they say. Seems ok.


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## Hobbit (Dec 19, 2018)

drdel said:



			To those who prefer the EU rather than the UK democratic 'rule' I'd like to look at the member states whole have elected governments which have then been ordered to ignore their election promises...
Italy, not allowed to budget.
Hungary,
Poland
Greece etc.
The national politics have been over-ruled by the largely unelected 'centre'. IMO explains much of the unrest and populist growth - France is pretty unhappy!
		
Click to expand...

That's a little simplistic, though not unreasonable. 

1) I agree that what the EU have said to Italy about their budget is totally wrong. Italy meets the financial requirements to set that budget, and it is the EU that has gone outside its own rules on this one. I side with Italy on this one.
2) Hungary; I presume you're on about Hungary's unilateral declaration on immigration. Sorry but Hungary knew the rules when they joined the EU. I side with the EU on this one.
3) Poland; don't know what you're on about on this one. Without more info I don't know who is in the wrong.
4) Greece didn't have to accept the bailout, and the associated conditions. And let's be honest here. Greece totally cocked up their finances. Without the bailout where would Greece be today? I side with the EU on the bailout. However, its EU money yet Germany have been given the lion's share of the contracts, by the EU, for helping to 'rebuild' Greece - that stinks.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 19, 2018)

Corbyn in full Dalek mode at PMQ


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## spongebob59 (Dec 19, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075366417673928704


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			That's a little simplistic, though not unreasonable.

1) I agree that what the EU have said to Italy about their budget is totally wrong. Italy meets the financial requirements to set that budget, and it is the EU that has gone outside its own rules on this one. I side with Italy on this one.
2) Hungary; I presume you're on about Hungary's unilateral declaration on immigration. Sorry but Hungary knew the rules when they joined the EU. I side with the EU on this one.
3) Poland; don't know what you're on about on this one. Without more info I don't know who is in the wrong.
*4) Greece didn't have to accept the bailout, and the associated conditions. And let's be honest here. Greece totally cocked up their finances. Without the bailout where would Greece be today? I side with the EU on the bailout. *However, its EU money yet Germany have been given the lion's share of the contracts, by the EU, for helping to 'rebuild' Greece - that stinks.
		
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Brian, had the EU not accepted Greece's "imaginative" accounts, they wouldn't be in & therefore they wouldn't be entitled to the bailout, surely?  I blame the EU for this one.


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## Slime (Dec 19, 2018)

Oooh, stupid woman.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 19, 2018)




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## drdel (Dec 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			That's a little simplistic, though not unreasonable.

1) I agree that what the EU have said to Italy about their budget is totally wrong. Italy meets the financial requirements to set that budget, and it is the EU that has gone outside its own rules on this one. I side with Italy on this one.
2) Hungary; I presume you're on about Hungary's unilateral declaration on immigration. Sorry but Hungary knew the rules when they joined the EU. I side with the EU on this one.
3) Poland; don't know what you're on about on this one. Without more info I don't know who is in the wrong.
4) Greece didn't have to accept the bailout, and the associated conditions. And let's be honest here. Greece totally cocked up their finances. Without the bailout where would Greece be today? I side with the EU on the bailout. However, its EU money yet Germany have been given the lion's share of the contracts, by the EU, for helping to 'rebuild' Greece - that stinks.
		
Click to expand...

My 'simple' point was not whether the nations' decisions were in-themselves, right, wrong or simply misguided. It was as elected Governments they had the right to enact the policies on which they were elected.

The original EC aim of trade between like minded nations has progressively moved and continues to develop and have aspirations that further subsume and undermine the opinions of citizens. Giving rise to and fuelling the populist trend in many member states.


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2018)

spongebob59 said:






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075366417673928704

Click to expand...

He must be stupid if he did not think his comment would go unnoticed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2018)

Why doesnâ€™t Corbyn just say â€œYes, I called her a stupid woman because thatâ€™s what I thinkâ€
Own it, take the rap, move on.


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## IanM (Dec 19, 2018)

jp5 said:



			Britain must be the only example in history where people are threatening riots if there's more democracy.
		
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That's a hoot... any riot would be about the Referendum being deliverately ignored..... but you know that!  Top Trolling!


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## Hobbit (Dec 19, 2018)

drdel said:



			My 'simple' point was not whether the nations' decisions were in-themselves, right, wrong or simply misguided. It was as elected Governments they had the right to enact the policies on which they were elected.

The original EC aim of trade between like minded nations has progressively moved and continues to develop and have aspirations that further subsume and undermine the opinions of citizens. Giving rise to and fuelling the populist trend in many member states.
		
Click to expand...

Its a club. There's rules. Adhere to the rules or do a Brexit. I agree that if nations want pure sovereignty they should decide every single law but if they're part of the club...


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## Hobbit (Dec 19, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Brian, had the EU not accepted Greece's "imaginative" accounts, they wouldn't be in & therefore they wouldn't be entitled to the bailout, surely?  I blame the EU for this one.
		
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The economic crash that the world went through was triggered by the USA's sub-prime mortgaging. Countries over extended based on an expected continuation of the financial bubble. The Uk's debt was/is far worse. Its only the UK's ability to service it, and the austerity which has gone on far too long. that has meant the UK isn't in the same boat as Greece. As an aside, I worry that Brexit will turn the UK into a Greece in terms of not being able to service its debts.


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## Mudball (Dec 19, 2018)

drdel said:



			To those who prefer the EU rather than the UK democratic 'rule' I'd like to look at the member states whole have elected governments which have then been ordered to ignore their election promises...
Italy, not allowed to budget.
Hungary,
Poland
Greece etc.
The national politics have been over-ruled by the largely unelected 'centre'. IMO explains much of the unrest and populist growth - France is pretty unhappy!
		
Click to expand...


What about Germany, France and the ilk..  Germany pays a big share into the EU finance, but has enough laws to defend its industry and workers.   Today I can see what all my teams across Europe are working on EXCEPT Germany - just because German laws prevent a non-germany based manager to get involved in Germany based employees.    

In short, dont blame the EU for the incompetence of our politicians and mandarins.  We signed away our bits, but not everyone does.  Germany still abides by the EU laws but also has its own to protect its own.


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## IanM (Dec 19, 2018)

Club, Trading Bloc or Federal State??  So hard to tell, isnt it!


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## Old Skier (Dec 19, 2018)

Mudball said:



			A genuine question to the Leavers ...    Are you happy that Britian leaves without a Deal?  or is there a sense of doubt/dissatisfaction/guilt squirreling away in your tummy?
		
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No doubts/dissatisfaction and definitely no guilt. The reason that we may be heading for a no deal falls squarely on the shoulders of remainers who have never accepted the people's vote and the remainers and opposition have proceeded to block any move that the government has made.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 19, 2018)

Colonel Bogey said:



			According to some, all we'll do is put WTO things in to effect. No problem...they say. Seems ok.
		
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Have you any idea how many countries trade solely on WTO terms??


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## IanM (Dec 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The economic crash that the world went through was triggered by the USA's sub-prime mortgaging. Countries over extended based on an expected continuation of the financial bubble. The Uk's debt was/is far worse. Its only the UK's ability to service it, and the austerity which has gone on far too long. that has meant the UK isn't in the same boat as Greece. As an aside, I worry that Brexit will turn the UK into a Greece in terms of not being able to service its debts.
		
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Greece has never been run well.  Running it on the same interest and exchange  rates as Germany has made it worse.   But that was the idea.  Greece is now shackled to the EU completely


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2018)

IanM said:



			Greece has never been run well.  Running it on the same interest and exchange  rates as Germany has made it worse.   But that was the idea.  Greece is now shackled *to the EU completely*

Click to expand...

While EU keeps getting the interest payments.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 19, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			Have you any idea how many countries trade solely on WTO terms??
		
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Most major economies, including those in the EU trade on WTO terms.

How many countries trade under EU rules.


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## Hobbit (Dec 19, 2018)

IanM said:



			Greece has never been run well.  Running it on the same interest and exchange  rates as Germany has made it worse.   But that was the idea.  Greece is now shackled to the EU completely
		
Click to expand...

If Germany is a successful economy, why would running Greece the same way make it worse? I thought Greece's problems were more associated with the stupid public spending and lack of tax revenue. Public sector workers were allowed to retire on full pension from 45 yrs of age. The statutory retirement age was between 45 and 65 dependent on job, with the average retirement age of 61. Pensions alone contributed 17% of GDP. The worst performing economy in the EU had the best benefits programme, backed by some of the strongest and most belligerent unions in the EU.

Mmm, sorry for Greece? No. Sorry for some of the pain many honest Greeks went through, yes.


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## Slime (Dec 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



*If Germany is a successful economy*, why would running Greece the same way make it worse? I thought Greece's problems were more associated with the stupid public spending and lack of tax revenue. Public sector workers were allowed to retire on full pension from 45 yrs of age. The statutory retirement age was between 45 and 65 dependent on job, with the average retirement age of 61. Pensions alone contributed 17% of GDP. The worst performing economy in the EU had the best benefits programme, backed by some of the strongest and most belligerent unions in the EU.

Mmm, sorry for Greece? No. Sorry for some of the pain many honest Greeks went through, yes.
		
Click to expand...

The problem is, right now, it isn't!

https://www.smh.com.au/business/the...spell-the-end-for-merkel-20180703-p4zp3p.html


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## Hobbit (Dec 19, 2018)

Slime said:



			The problem is, right now, it isn't!

https://www.smh.com.au/business/the...spell-the-end-for-merkel-20180703-p4zp3p.html

Click to expand...

Isn't that playing with numbers? The contraction in the German economy still leaves it growing, just not as quickly. Sounds like the UK economy? Also, if you have an economy the size of Germany's, and it grows only 1.8% as predicted, 1.8% of a large number is bigger than 1.8% of a small number.

What is a concern in Germany, and in the other countries with large car manufacturing businesses is the 31% drop in sales year on year. Diesel sales are through the floor, courtesy of very poor legislation and muddled thinking from the EU.

JLR blaming Brexit is a huge red herring, and is recognised as poor board room mgt but it doesn't stop the boss of JLR making banner headline statements about Brexit.


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## Old Skier (Dec 19, 2018)

From Sky News

The European Commission has proposed that trucks from the UK will be "temporarily allowed" to carry goods into the EU until the end of 2019 under a 'no-deal' Brexit provided that the UK offers equivalent rights to the EU


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## IanM (Dec 19, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			If Germany is a successful economy, why would running Greece the same way make it worse? I thought Greece's problems were more associated with the stupid public spending and lack of tax revenue.
		
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Absolutely right about their Public Sector.... but I wasnt suggesting they are running it â€œlike Germany,â€ but that Greece is being run on exchange and interest rates inappropriate for the state if their economy.  (the sliding Drachma kept Greece competitive in a perverse way!).


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 19, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Most major economies, including those in the EU trade on WTO terms.

How many countries trade under EU rules.
		
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Currently 28 more than trade on WTO terms alone.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			Currently 28 more than trade on WTO terms alone.
		
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Thats a loaded point. Most countries in the World are not in the EU. Are you suggesting the UK would trade under different circumstances.


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## Sweep (Dec 20, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well I for one am pleased that we are putting 3500 military personnel on standby just in case of a hard Brexit.  Not entirely sure why we would think we need military personnel on standby for something that is apparently such a good thing for the country according to some folks.  Perhaps it will be to assist with all the street parties that will be breaking out in celebration.  

Click to expand...

Hmmm, I wonder what they do when they are not on stand by? Isnâ€™t that the whole point of the military?


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## Sweep (Dec 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Its a club. There's rules. Adhere to the rules or do a Brexit. I agree that if nations want pure sovereignty they should decide every single law but if they're part of the club...
		
Click to expand...

When you say do a Brexit I assume you mean try to leave?
As we know, leaving the club is not as easy as joining it. And most of the rules werenâ€™t there when we, or Greece for that matter, joined.


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## Sweep (Dec 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			If Germany is a successful economy, why would running Greece the same way make it worse? I thought Greece's problems were more associated with the stupid public spending and lack of tax revenue. Public sector workers were allowed to retire on full pension from 45 yrs of age. The statutory retirement age was between 45 and 65 dependent on job, with the average retirement age of 61. Pensions alone contributed 17% of GDP. The worst performing economy in the EU had the best benefits programme, backed by some of the strongest and most belligerent unions in the EU.

Mmm, sorry for Greece? No. Sorry for some of the pain many honest Greeks went through, yes.
		
Click to expand...

You are assuming that you can just take an economy like Greece and make it as successful as Germany overnight. You canâ€™t. These are two vastly different economies with very different cultures and indeed working conditions. Try asking the average German to work in 40 degrees for example and thatâ€™s just a small point.
This in my view is one of the failings of the whole EU concept. Itâ€™s idealistic. It thinks you can raise the weakest economies to the level of the strongest and that you can treat them all the same. Whilst the intention is good the reality just isnâ€™t there.
A good government creates the conditions to make a good economy. It canâ€™t just magic it up.
Now, I think we all accept that Greece was not run well. My Greek customers accept that. There was always going to be a day of reckoning. But the way Germany has lead this is wrong and the way Germany has benefitted is nothing short of a disgrace. 
Interestingly my Greek friends tell me that they admire the UK for Brexit but fear they have lost their real friend in the EU.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 20, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats a loaded point. Most countries in the World are not in the EU. Are you suggesting the UK would trade under different circumstances.
		
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Yes,  as with a no deal Brexit we will be the only country in the world that doesn't have any sort of trade deal with any other country. Yet you and others are making it sound like every country other than the 28 do all their trade on WTO terms,  fake news.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			Yes,  as with a no deal Brexit we will be the only country in the world that doesn't have any sort of trade deal with any other country. Yet you and others are making it sound like every country other than the 28 do all their trade on WTO terms,  fake news.
		
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I don't think anyone has said all the other countries only have WTO terms. I think you're making that up to suit your argument.

That said, WTO is better than tariff/quota based trading that the EU has with many countries.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2018)

On the issue of trading with the EU under WTO rules. The EU have great tool for calculating tariffs called the "Market Access Database." The database will tell you what the tariffs are, some of which are extremely high. And it also shows what licences and quotas must be met.

Exporting lamb, as a 3rd country, into the EU sees a tariff rate of 12% + 171â‚¬ per 100kg. Exporting lamb to the EU under WTO rules sees a zero tariff.

After spending an hour looking at a cross section of products I'm struggling to find products that suffer tariffs or quotas under WTO rules. Specific countries as 3rd countries do have some very high tariffs, and quotas, and some even have product blocks in place, e.g. China & steel - way too late but thats for a separate debate. But trading with the EU appears to be very easy, which begs the question, what benefit is there to the UK being outside the EU? Equally, what benefit is there to being in the EU? And what is all the fuss about? The fuss is about having the right regulations and licences in place, which the UK doesn't have BUT it does, as the EU knows, manufacture to EU regs now.

Originally, many years ago, it was about trade. If trade is no longer the issue it was, i.e. trade protections, just what is the benefit of being in? There's nothing there for the UK other than a massive amount of regulation and a massive annual bill for the privilege. To continue to trade, those regulations will still have to be met. The UK already meets a number of regulations for a number of non-EU countries in order to export to them.

The whole bloody story about not being able to trade is, in the main, a gigantic red herring. BUT the UK won't have the right licences to trade on Brexit day 1. Its about political will, not whether or not the UK builds shoddy products that don't conform to EU regs. But then you're back to the argument about trading under WTO, which is easy.... no it isn't because the UK won't have the right licences.

The only argument the EU have for not trading with the UK is licences(CE Markings), and that's all.


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## Sweep (Dec 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			On the issue of trading with the EU under WTO rules. The EU have great tool for calculating tariffs called the "Market Access Database." The database will tell you what the tariffs are, some of which are extremely high. And it also shows what licences and quotas must be met.

Exporting lamb, as a 3rd country, into the EU sees a tariff rate of 12% + 171â‚¬ per 100kg. Exporting lamb to the EU under WTO rules sees a zero tariff.

After spending an hour looking at a cross section of products I'm struggling to find products that suffer tariffs or quotas under WTO rules. Specific countries as 3rd countries do have some very high tariffs, and quotas, and some even have product blocks in place, e.g. China & steel - way too late but thats for a separate debate. But trading with the EU appears to be very easy, which begs the question, what benefit is there to the UK being outside the EU? Equally, what benefit is there to being in the EU? And what is all the fuss about? The fuss is about having the right regulations and licences in place, which the UK doesn't have BUT it does, as the EU knows, manufacture to EU regs now.

Originally, many years ago, it was about trade. If trade is no longer the issue it was, i.e. trade protections, just what is the benefit of being in? There's nothing there for the UK other than a massive amount of regulation and a massive annual bill for the privilege. To continue to trade, those regulations will still have to be met. The UK already meets a number of regulations for a number of non-EU countries in order to export to them.

The whole bloody story about not being able to trade is, in the main, a gigantic red herring. BUT the UK won't have the right licences to trade on Brexit day 1. Its about political will, not whether or not the UK builds shoddy products that don't conform to EU regs. But then you're back to the argument about trading under WTO, which is easy.... no it isn't because the UK won't have the right licences.

The only argument the EU have for not trading with the UK is licences(CE Markings), and that's all.
		
Click to expand...

To most Brexiteers, trade is the only reason for being in the EU. However you have to understand that others actually consider federalism, currency, EU laws and courts, EU parliament and commission, UK contribution, FOM, unchecked immigration etc etc all good things and are reasons in themselves for being in the EU.


As far as I am aware, the CE mark is applied to products indicating conformity with EU standards on environment, health & safety etc. Not all products sold or imported into the EU have to carry it. I donâ€™t see why such products that do carry the mark should have it withdrawn because they are made in the UK and the UK has left.

The main issue with WTO is on the face of it, duty. Usually 6.5% but can be changed product by product by the importing country. However, as we have seen with the US and China, if one starts increasing the tariffs the other one will too. In a free trade deal like we have with the EU as members now, there is no duty.

In truth, the main problem with not having a free trade deal is customs and the delivery delay it causes. This is why an openish goods border with goods cleared on delivery at the consignees premises is being touted.


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## IanM (Dec 20, 2018)

Sweep said:



			However you have to understand that others actually consider federalism, currency, EU laws and courts, EU parliament and commission, UK contribution, FOM, unchecked immigration etc etc all good things and are reasons in themselves for being in the EU.
.
		
Click to expand...


Um, no.  They are not.

Hang on, I am not sure if you were being sarcastic!


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## Sweep (Dec 20, 2018)

IanM said:



			Um, no.  They are not.

Hang on, I am not sure if you were being sarcastic! 

Click to expand...

I agree. They are not. Some people think they are though.


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## woody69 (Dec 20, 2018)

Mrs Wiggles said:



			Just picking up on the Brexit debate, but have no wish to read back through all the posts.

I voted leave, and believe this is the best mid to long term decision for the country. We simply can't carry on allowing in millions of EU citizens when we don't have the homes for our own people. This has artificially driven up house prices and held back wages. The whole concept of the freedom of movement  is crazy. Needless to say, having little control of our own laws, and financially supporting poorer EU countries also drives me mad.

The Labour party have used this entire situation for their own political needs, and appear to have no genuine interest in the country. TM is in an impossible situation, as a hard Brexit upsets the remainers and moderate Brexiteers, and the EU offer upsets the hard Brexiteers. In short, she is dammed if she does, and dammed if she doesn't. By changing the leader WILL NOT change what is on the table.

The country voted leave, and leave is what we must do. The EU offer will not change, so parliament now needs to decide, hard Brexit, or negotiated deal. Anything else is for political gain, and the idiots who are making our country look a laughing stock should be ashamed
		
Click to expand...

I would recommend you do a little more research around the economic benefit EU migrants have brought to the UK. The failures of our governments with regards to housing, social care, transportation etc is not the fault of EU migrants. Nor is it their fault that the UK Government failed to implement the EU directives around immigration and FoM with regards to ensuring they are able to support themselves within 3 months and if not, be sent back.

Still, I don't blame you for having these views. The British media has been subtly playing on our fears of migrants for years.


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## HughJars (Dec 20, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1075449599425503232


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			No doubts/dissatisfaction and definitely no guilt. The reason that we may be heading for a no deal falls squarely on the shoulders of remainers who have never accepted the people's vote and the remainers and opposition have proceeded to block any move that the government has made.
		
Click to expand...

Wondered how long it would be before those that didn't want this mess were being blamed for it - and those responsible for decided it wasn't their fault.

The blame is 100% with those who wanted this.  Besides - that many leading Leavers and many leave voters are now calling for a 'managed No Deal' - as if that is what all Leave voters voted for - simply trashes that shifting of blame.  No Deal means just that - No Deal.  And No Deal renders completely irrelevant everything that any Remain supporter might have said over the last two years.

No - the responsibility for any downside and disruption or chaos that results from leaving the EU sits 100% with one group and one group only.  And that group is not that whch wanted none of this.

Dear Leavers  - you won - get over it - and take responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

And on that I am back out of this thread.


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2018)

Typical answer. The mess was a result of people not accepting the outcome of the referendum which even the most bias should be able to see that it gave the negotiating team no backing to resolve some of the more political matters. The EU worked on the split in the hope (which they still do) that we will do a Ireland or France.

Don't slam the door on the way out.


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## Dando (Dec 20, 2018)

*And on that I am back out of this thread *

.....this is the funniest thing I have read.

maybe if your beloved EU had been a bit more interested in doing a deal with Cameron then the vote might have been different!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Typical answer. The mess was a result of people not accepting the outcome of the referendum which even the most bias should be able to see that it gave the negotiating team no backing to resolve some of the more political matters. The EU worked on the split in the hope (which they still do) that we will do a Ireland or France.

Don't slam the door on the way out.
		
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Sorry but I keep seeing this finger of blame at people who voted to remain but how can people who voted to stay in the EU be at fault for the Government having issues leaving ? 

If itâ€™s a blame game we are at this stage due to people who voted to leave the EU , it was never going to be an easy process but there is no way people who voted to leave should shoulder any blame


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If itâ€™s a blame game we are at this stage due to people who voted to leave the EU , it was never going to be an easy process but there is no way people who voted to leave should shoulder any blame
		
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I think I agree with this


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 20, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but I keep seeing this finger of blame at people who voted to remain but how can people who voted to stay in the EU be at fault for the Government having issues leaving ?

If itâ€™s a blame game we are at this stage due to people who voted to leave the EU , it was never going to be an easy process but there is no way people who voted to leave should shoulder any blame
		
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I'd argue it is a failure of effective governance, stoked by people on both sides who had personal interests at heart rather than the good of a whole nation. I really do think people will look back in years to come and wonder why we were so self destructive.  And not in the sense of voting one way or the other, but the whole sorry shambles of the process.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 20, 2018)

woody69 said:



			I would recommend you do a little more research around the economic benefit EU migrants have brought to the UK. The failures of our governments with regards to housing, social care, transportation etc is not the fault of EU migrants. Nor is it their fault that the UK Government failed to implement the EU directives around immigration and FoM with regards to ensuring they are able to support themselves within 3 months and if not, be sent back.

Still, I don't blame you for having these views. The British media has been subtly playing on our fears of migrants for years.







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Woody, thank you for posting the brilliant Steven Fry link.
 I wish it had been circulated earlier as I think Fry has honestly nailed Brexit as far as I am concerned.
I urge all posters to see it and if any leavers disagree with the content please post their reasons on here.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wondered how long it would be before those that didn't want this mess were being blamed for it - and those responsible for decided it wasn't their fault.

The blame is 100% with those who wanted this.  Besides - that many leading Leavers and many leave voters are now calling for a 'managed No Deal' - as if that is what all Leave voters voted for - simply trashes that shifting of blame.  No Deal means just that - No Deal.  And No Deal renders completely irrelevant everything that any Remain supporter might have said over the last two years.

No - the responsibility for any downside and disruption or chaos that results from leaving the EU sits 100% with one group and one group only.  And that group is not that whch wanted none of this.

Dear Leavers  - you won - get over it - and take responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

And on that I am back out of this thread.
		
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I'd rather look back a little further than the last few years. Maybe 1992 when the Maastricht Treaty was signed. That ended the EEC, and the European Union was formed. The next 17 years saw a creeping federalisation, the next big step being the Lisbon Treaty in 2009. 

I'd argue that the UK's political elite deciding, without reference to the electorate as Ireland and Denmark did, to sign the Lisbon Treaty was pretty much the final straw. If the UK had a constitution like Ireland, where any EU treaty must go to a referendum we might be in a better place now. Probably still in the EU but a much modified EU.

I blame Toxic Tony and Labour.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I'd rather look back a little further than the last few years. Maybe 1992 when the Maastricht Treaty was signed. That ended the EEC, and the European Union was formed. The next 17 years saw a creeping federalisation, the next big step being the Lisbon Treaty in 2009.

I'd argue that the UK's political elite deciding, without reference to the electorate as Ireland and Denmark did, to sign the Lisbon Treaty was pretty much the final straw. If the UK had a constitution like Ireland, where any EU treaty must go to a referendum we might be in a better place now. Probably still in the EU but a much modified EU.

I blame Toxic Tony and Labour.
		
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mmmm, I think blaming Tony Blair for the current Brexit mess is stretching it a bit and kind of letting people a bit more 'contemporary' off the hook.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I blame Toxic Tony and Labour.
		
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Edwina's bed mate has to shoulder his fair share of blame...


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			mmmm, I think blaming Tony Blair for the current Brexit mess is stretching it a bit and kind of letting people a bit more 'contemporary' off the hook.
		
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I'm not letting the current crew off the hook but I don't think a few months of campaigning for a referendum, when most would have already had entrenched views of the EU, is valid. Disenchantment with the EU goes a lot further back. It could be argued that Cameron gave the majority of electorate what they asked for.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 20, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I'm not letting the current crew off the hook but I don't think a few months of campaigning for a referendum, when most would have already had entrenched views of the EU, is valid. Disenchantment with the EU goes a lot further back. It could be argued that Cameron gave the majority of electorate what they asked for.
		
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We may be talking about different things here.  I thought the original post about blame being thrown around was referring to the mess we are in with regards to the process, i.e. why are we in the state we are currently in.  I would argue there was a way to exit in an orderly fashion that would have got some level of agreement.  Where as you seem to be looking more at reasons why some are very disenchanted with the EU.   I suspect quite a few people are very disenchanted with the EU but also appalled with how we are handling the leave process.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 20, 2018)

And anyway, I thought this was very good


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wondered how long it would be before those that didn't want this mess were being blamed for it - and those responsible for decided it wasn't their fault.The blame is 100% with those who wanted this.  Besides - that many leading Leavers and many leave voters are now calling for a 'managed No Deal' - as if that is what all Leave voters voted for - simply trashes that shifting of blame.  No Deal means just that - No Deal.  And No Deal renders completely irrelevant everything that any Remain supporter might have said over the last two years.
No - the responsibility for any downside and disruption or chaos that results from leaving the EU sits 100% with one group and one group only.  And that group is not that whch wanted none of this.  Dear Leavers  - you won - get over it - and take responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

*And on that I am back out of this thread.*

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Good; the quality of posting & debate on this thread has improved greatly since you stopped -stirring on it rather than posting anything of value.  If you could stay out this time I'm sure many would be grateful.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			We may be talking about different things here.  I thought the original post about blame being thrown around was referring to the mess we are in with regards to the process, i.e. why are we in the state we are currently in.  I would argue there was a way to exit in an orderly fashion that would have got some level of agreement.  Where as you seem to be looking more at reasons why some are very disenchanted with the EU.   I suspect quite a few people are very disenchanted with the EU but also appalled with how we are handling the leave process.
		
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I think you're right. The mess we're in is down to the idiots that are currently in Parliament. The root cause goes back many years.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			We may be talking about different things here.  I thought the original post about blame being thrown around was referring to the mess we are in with regards to the process, i.e. why are we in the state we are currently in.  I would argue there was a way to exit in an orderly fashion that would have got some level of agreement.  Where as you seem to be looking more at reasons why some are very disenchanted with the EU.   *I suspect quite a few people are very disenchanted with the EU but also appalled with how we are handling the leave process.*

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Gets my vote.  Although it might be more accurate to say that I'm completely disenchanted with the EU's politicians than with the EU.  

I fully appreciate the benefits that immigrants who come to work and who integrate bring, the medical cover that we enjoy travelling in Europe, the ease of movement; there are undoubtedly benefits from being on good terms with the neighbours, there are indeed many benefits that I'd rather keep.  However I'm completely disenchanted with the creeping federalism & protectionism of the EU, the political decisions from within the EU that seem skewed towards certain players and with the pathetic inability of politicians on both sides of the English Channel to sort out something that shouldn't be as difficult as they are making it.  They consider themselves the political elite; it would be nice if they started acting like it...


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 20, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Gets my vote.  Although it might be more accurate to say that I'm completely disenchanted with the EU's politicians than with the EU.

I fully appreciate the benefits that immigrants who come to work and who integrate bring, the medical cover that we enjoy travelling in Europe, the ease of movement; there are undoubtedly benefits from being on good terms with the neighbours, there are indeed many benefits that I'd rather keep.  However I'm completely disenchanted with the creeping federalism & protectionism of the EU, the political decisions from within the EU that seem skewed towards certain players and with the pathetic inability of politicians on both sides of the English Channel to sort out something that shouldn't be as difficult as they are making it.  They consider themselves *the political elite*; it would be nice if they started acting like it... 

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Whilst I don't agree with it, to me it seems a fair argument and is refreshing to see a balanced view of things. I don't think most leavers think the EU is all bad or most remainers think it is all good, but are somewhere in inbetween.  But that is not the people who end up on debates in the media.

I think that is another big issue in that they are seen as 'the elite' and people rally against these types.  Where as to me it is becoming increasingly clear that they are not elite in the sense of having great ideas or leadership, but are mostly people either with an inherited sense of importance who have got their way to the top that way or people who have been promoted above their competence levels.  And they are increasingly being found out.


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## drdel (Dec 20, 2018)

Part of the reason its a mess is systemic of the nature of decision making in the EU. The structure does not reward initiative or decision-makers: rather it rewards those who prevaricate and kick the can down the road. Any 'leaders' who are proactive risk making errors and don't get promoted. The 'politically' astute tend to wait until events and time take over and the outcome is determined by events that way they can either claim a success or blame others = Teflon managers. It is largely the promotion of the non-involved or the well connected. 

Barnier and Tusk are in a lose, lose situation if they take a decision and make any recommendations; but, if they sit and wait for the UK to make the running then the UK's propositions can be pulled apart because there is no alternative against which to make comparisons. If you look analytically at the historic way the EU has handled past strategic issues it has always drifted to the last minute and beyond.

EU is treating Brexit the same as all their major pan-member issues in the past. Any British MP or political party would have met the same blocking negotiating tactics because structurally the organisation is incapable of behaving differently.

The EU has taken the default stance of being opposed to Brexit so negotiation is not part of the plan.

It interesting to note that Germany is beginning to realise that their biggest market is in danger of wandering off over the horizon and this would fundamentally impact their economy which is finely balanced and quite narrowly focussed. Is this enough for pragmatism and common-sense to surface - I'm not holding my breath.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2018)

drdel said:



			The EU has taken the default stance of being opposed to Brexit so negotiation is not part of the plan.
.
		
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And why shouldn't they be opposed to Brexit? All of the EU Commission is opposed to Brexit, now there's a shock.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 20, 2018)

drdel said:



			Part of the reason its a mess is systemic of the nature of decision making in the EU. The structure does not reward initiative or decision-makers: rather it rewards those who prevaricate and kick the can down the road. Any 'leaders' who are proactive risk making errors and don't get promoted. The 'politically' astute tend to wait until events and time take over and the outcome is determined by events that way they can either claim a success or blame others = Teflon managers. It is largely the promotion of the non-involved or the well connected.

Barnier and Tusk are in a lose, lose situation if they take a decision and make any recommendations; but, if they sit and wait for the UK to make the running then the UK's propositions can be pulled apart because there is no alternative against which to make comparisons. If you look analytically at the historic way the EU has handled past strategic issues it has always drifted to the last minute and beyond.

EU is treating Brexit the same as all their major pan-member issues in the past. Any British MP or political party would have met the same blocking negotiating tactics because structurally the organisation is incapable of behaving differently.

The EU has taken the default stance of being opposed to Brexit so negotiation is not part of the plan.

It interesting to note that Germany is beginning to realise that their biggest market is in danger of wandering off over the horizon and this would fundamentally impact their economy which is finely balanced and quite narrowly focussed. Is this enough for pragmatism and common-sense to surface - I'm not holding my breath.
		
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I've seen a very well argued and reasoned post by BIM about why they want to leave but to be honest, yours just comes across as a mixture of extreme naievity (*The EU has taken the default stance of being opposed to Brexit *no *&*^ Sherlock) and a constant blaming of the EU for our current position. 

You go on about the nature of their decision making but they appointed one person to do the negotiating on their behalf, they were all behind them and they had an agreed solid position. We have had 3 Brexit minsters that had very little support and no where near an agreed position.  And with under 100 days to go we still haven't and no one has a proper clue what will happen. So who's the ones bad at negotiating?  Yes the EU are a long way from perfect but if you see them totally as the baddies then you will be in for a hell of a shock when we leave.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Whilst I don't agree with it, to me it seems a fair argument and is refreshing to see a balanced view of things. *I don't think most leavers think the EU is all bad or most remainers think it is all good, but are somewhere in inbetween. * But that is not the people who end up on debates in the media.

I think that is another big issue in that they are seen as 'the elite' and people rally against these types.  Where as to me it is becoming increasingly clear that they are not elite in the sense of having great ideas or leadership, but are mostly people either with an inherited sense of importance who have got their way to the top that way or people who have been promoted above their competence levels.  And they are increasingly being found out.
		
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There's a hell of a lot of truth in that statement for me.  I know of more than a few people who had great difficulty in deciding which side of the fence to come down on.  I'd be happy to remain as part of the gang if we could sort out the issues that a lot of people have but unfortunately the EU seem reluctant to give ground to gain an agreement and our politicians seem incapable of persuading them of the benefits that a middle ground that would resolve the issues could be reached.

Unfortunately I think our press has been as bad as our politicians in failing to properly research the feelings of the country, particularly in regard to the immigration issue, resulting in the tagging of Leavers as rabid knuckle dragging racists with single figure IQs, which has helped to polarise opinions and stifle debate.  I'm not against immigration that improves our country; I wouldn't be here to debate it without the multi-racial team in the cardiac unit that saved my life, but I'm convinced Oxford Street doesn't need any more Eastern European beggars or shoplifters.  I'd like to have some sort of better control over immigration but as the EU stance is free movement or else, that places me against them.  If there was room for negotiation I'd be happy to reconsider, were I to be given the option.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 20, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			There's a hell of a lot of truth in that statement for me.  I know of more than a few people who had great difficulty in deciding which side of the fence to come down on.  I'd be happy to remain as part of the gang if we could sort out the issues that a lot of people have but unfortunately the EU seem reluctant to give ground to gain an agreement and our politicians seem incapable of persuading them of the benefits that a middle ground that would resolve the issues could be reached.

Unfortunately I think our press has been as bad as our politicians in failing to properly research the feelings of the country, particularly in regard to the immigration issue, resulting in the tagging of Leavers as rabid knuckle dragging racists with single figure IQs, which has helped to polarise opinions and stifle debate.  I'm not against immigration that improves our country; I wouldn't be here to debate it without the multi-racial team in the cardiac unit that saved my life, but I'm convinced Oxford Street doesn't need any more Eastern European beggars or shoplifters.  I'd like to have some sort of better control over immigration but as the EU stance is free movement or else, that places me against them.  If there was room for negotiation I'd be happy to reconsider, were I to be given the option.[``/QUOTE]
You are aware that the so called free movement regulations allow for member states to return EU migrants to their home countries if they have not been able to find work within 3 months of arrival.
		
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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			You are aware that the so called free movement regulations allow for member states to return EU migrants to their home countries if they have not been able to find work within 3 months of arrival.
		
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Yes I am.  I'm also personally aware of the time and effort it takes to catch up with them 3 months down the line when they aren't to be found at a regular place of employment or at the address where they are supposed to be.  I'd rather not let the fox into the henhouse than clear up the mess afterwards if you see what I mean.


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## drdel (Dec 20, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've seen a very well argued and reasoned post by BIM about why they want to leave but to be honest, yours just comes across as a mixture of extreme naievity (*The EU has taken the default stance of being opposed to Brexit *no *&*^ Sherlock) and a constant blaming of the EU for our current position.

You go on about the nature of their decision making but they appointed one person to do the negotiating on their behalf, they were all behind them and they had an agreed solid position. We have had 3 Brexit minsters that had very little support and no where near an agreed position.  And with under 100 days to go we still haven't and no one has a proper clue what will happen. So who's the ones bad at negotiating?  Yes the EU are a long way from perfect but if you see them totally as the baddies then you will be in for a hell of a shock when we leave.
		
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I guess you have not been at the front end of major European operated, multi-member projects.

And, I never said anything about the competence of individuals my critique was concerned with the organisational dynamics. Barnier holds a position but without authority

I stand by my summary a few posts above.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 20, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Yes I am.  I'm also personally aware of the time and effort it takes to catch up with them 3 months down the line when they aren't to be found at a regular place of employment or at the address where they are supposed to be.  I'd rather not let the fox into the henhouse than clear up the mess afterwards if you see what I mean.
		
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Interesting,  so how do you think the UK government is going to stop the fox from getting into the hen house post Brexit,  and how much will it cost.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2018)

doublebogey7 said:



			Interesting,  so how do you think the UK government is going to stop the fox from getting into the hen house post Brexit,  and how much will it cost.
		
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I have no idea how they are going to go about it; having seen the absolute pig's ear that they appear to have made of the negotiations I have absolutely no faith in them actually implementing any increased restrictions that they might achieve.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2018)

If we were  not serious about being prepared to leave with a no deal from the start of these negotiations then we threw away our chances of negotiating a reasonable deal.  Parliament have been making it clear that they would not accept a no deal so why would the EU wish to give us a good one, they just needed to put together a punishment deal in the knowledge that if it was rejected we would have no other option but remain.  Remainers including parliamentarians have engineered the current state of affairs and talk of giving the people a say is just playing dirty tricks, they are just not prepared to accept losing the referendum and have acted underhandedly.     We should have insisted that we would not sign up to anything  until everything was agreed and been clear the border in Ireland was a matter between the UK and Ireland and we would both guarantee an open border.


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## jp5 (Dec 21, 2018)

So it's all the fault of remainers, and not those who wanted to leave the EU for 30 years but when it actually happened had no idea what they wanted instead - who would've guessed?!


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## IanM (Dec 21, 2018)

jp5 said:



			So it's all the fault of remainers, and not those who wanted to leave the EU for 30 years but when it actually happened had no idea what they wanted instead - who would've guessed?!
		
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If you choose to ignore what they are saying, I cant help that.........what we've had is people strongly trying to Remain, pretending to negotiate an exit!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2018)

jp5 said:



			So it's all the fault of remainers, and not those who wanted to leave the EU for 30 years but when it actually happened had no idea what they wanted instead - who would've guessed?!
		
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I knew what I wanted and I expect the vast majority knew as well and it wasn't written on any bus. We wanted to leave the EU and its institutions. Your comment is incorrect, it was the government that didnt have a plan because the remainers in parliament thought it impossible the plebs would dare to vote the way they did.  Cameron promised us that tne result would be carried out ,no ifs no buts so one would expect him to have a plan.


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## Sweep (Dec 21, 2018)

jp5 said:



			So it's all the fault of remainers, and not those who wanted to leave the EU for 30 years but when it actually happened had no idea what they wanted instead - who would've guessed?!
		
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what makes you think people didnâ€™t know what they wanted instead?
I think the point was that if remainers had accepted the result of the referendum Brexit would have been smoother. Thatâ€™s not an illogical point. I have to say I am surprised at the strength of feeling on both sides of the debate and itâ€™s fair to say, we rarely see a â€œlosingâ€ side so vocal in its opposition to the result of a ballot. If this happened in General Elections no-one would ever govern. I think in this case this is partly due to the remain side being encouraged that they can minimise the effects of the result or even overturn it all together by our elected representatives who mainly agree with them.


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## jp5 (Dec 21, 2018)

IanM said:



			If you choose to ignore what they are saying, I cant help that.........what we've had is people strongly trying to Remain, pretending to negotiate an exit!
		
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I've been listening to what they've been saying. Farage was a very keen proponent of the Norway model, something I expect the majority of the country could get behind now, right up until the referendum victory. Then the goalposts start to change!

I don't see May, Davis, Raab as trying to Remain. Once they laid down their red lines it made no deal inevitable.


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## jp5 (Dec 21, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I have to say I am surprised at the strength of feeling on both sides of the debate and itâ€™s fair to say, we rarely see a â€œlosingâ€ side so vocal in its opposition to the result of a ballot. If this happened in General Elections no-one would ever govern.
		
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It would be like running a General Election with the question "The Conservatives or Not The Conservatives". We're in the process of finding out what "Not The Conservatives" actually means - of course there is going to be strong feelings on that as it hasn't yet been defined.


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## Sweep (Dec 21, 2018)

jp5 said:



			I've been listening to what they've been saying. Farage was a very keen proponent of the Norway model, something I expect the majority of the country could get behind now, right up until the referendum victory. Then the goalposts start to change!

I don't see May, Davis, Raab as trying to Remain. Once they laid down their red lines it made no deal inevitable.
		
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Farage wasnâ€™t really a keen proponent of the Norway model. He highlighted it to show that countries could prosper outside the EU and still have a good relationship with the EU. He didnâ€™t extol it as a way forward for the UK.
As a regular importer from Norway, I am still waiting for clarification on what, in practice, the Norway model actually is. In my experience itâ€™s like importing from any other nation on WTO rules. Itâ€™s a red herring.
I take your point on Davis and Raab. They wanted to leave and paid the price with their jobs. May is just trying to fudge it.


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## IanM (Dec 21, 2018)

jp5 said:



			I don't see May, Davis, Raab as trying to Remain. Once they laid down their red lines it made no deal inevitable.
		
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Farage is a funny one.... his influence is negligible.  Never been an MP, not in the Govt and never had a role in the negotiations... although he and his opponents like to say otherwise 

I think those _red lines_ are known to be unacceptable to many... I think that is in order to make Brexit look "too hard to do" and force Ref2 and a Remain Outcome.  I can however, understand your position on how it could be seen to make "No Deal" the outcome more likely.... 

Time will tell who is right....


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## Sweep (Dec 21, 2018)

jp5 said:



			It would be like running a General Election with the question "The Conservatives or Not The Conservatives". We're in the process of finding out what "Not The Conservatives" actually means - of course there is going to be strong feelings on that as it hasn't yet been defined.
		
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No, itâ€™s like running the GE on Labour or Conservative but when the opposition wins the government side wonâ€™t accept it and wonâ€™t stand down.


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## Sweep (Dec 21, 2018)

IanM said:



			Farage is a funny one.... his influence is negligible.  Never been an MP, not in the Govt and never had a role in the negotiations... although he and his opponents like to say otherwise 

I think those _red lines_ are known to be unacceptable to many... I think that is in order to make Brexit look "too hard to do" and force Ref2 and a Remain Outcome.  I can however, understand your position on how it could be seen to make "No Deal" the outcome more likely....

Time will tell who is right....
		
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I donâ€™t think you can say Farageâ€™s influence was negligible. He alone practically forced Cameron to hold the referendum.


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## IanM (Dec 21, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I donâ€™t think you can say Farageâ€™s influence was negligible. He alone practically forced Cameron to hold the referendum.
		
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I can and I did, it's in the line above!    But seriously, he is an MEP only.  Failed to get elected to Westminster several times, a distant if eloquent noise maker.  

How do you think he forced Cameron to hold a Referendum?   I think Cameron was trying to kill off the EU Division in the Tories that has  dogged them for 30 years... and he was utterly shocked at the outcome...


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## jp5 (Dec 21, 2018)

Farage was attracting millions of votes pretty much single handedly. Cameron had to promise the referendum to stop the bleed to UKIP from the Tories. Like him or not Farage had a huge pull - just look at where UKIP are without him.


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## Slime (Dec 21, 2018)

jp5 said:



			So it's all the fault of remainers, and not those who wanted to leave the EU for 30 years but when it actually happened *had no idea what they wanted* instead - who would've guessed?!
		
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That's a little bit arrogant and patronising. Whatever gave you that idea?


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## bluewolf (Dec 21, 2018)

Slime said:



			That's a little bit arrogant and patronising. Whatever gave you that idea?
		
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Watching the ERG flounder about like a headless chicken put that thought in my mind....


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## Sweep (Dec 21, 2018)

bluewolf said:



			Watching the ERG flounder about like a headless chicken put that thought in my mind....
		
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Interesting view. As far as I can see the ERG have put forward concrete proposals. Which is more than Her Majestyâ€™s Opposition have done.
Whether you agree with such proposals is another matter.


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## bluewolf (Dec 21, 2018)

Sweep said:



			Interesting view. As far as I can see the ERG have put forward concrete proposals. Which is more than Her Majestyâ€™s Opposition have done.
Whether you agree with such proposals is another matter.
		
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Apologies. I mistakenly thought I was posting in another thread. Please ignore my post as I did say that I wasn't posting in here anymore...... ðŸ‘


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## harpo_72 (Dec 21, 2018)

Slime said:



			That's a little bit arrogant and patronising. Whatever gave you that idea?
		
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Probably all the non agreement now ... I suppose you could say the remain camp were and are united


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## Mudball (Dec 27, 2018)

First the BoE and now the Met is getting into scaremongering.. canâ€™t the Met understand that this is the peopleâ€™s will and it is their job to keep us safe irrespective of us being in and out. Do your job..  we r still part of the Interpol and other bodies ..

No-deal Brexit could put public at risk, warns Met chief http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46693156


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 27, 2018)

Mudball said:



			First the BoE and now the Met is getting into scaremongering.. canâ€™t the Met understand that this is the peopleâ€™s will and it is their job to keep us safe irrespective of us being in and out. Do your job..  we r still part of the Interpol and other bodies ..

No-deal Brexit could put public at risk, warns Met chief http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46693156

Click to expand...

Eh , surely that is exactly what the Met and BoE are doing, keeping us informed and safe by warning us about the dangers of our post brexit society.


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2018)

Mudball said:



			First the BoE and now the Met is getting into scaremongering.. canâ€™t the Met understand that this is the peopleâ€™s will and it is their job to keep us safe irrespective of us being in and out. Do your job..  we r still part of the Interpol and other bodies ..

No-deal Brexit could put public at risk, warns Met chief http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46693156

Click to expand...

I despair of the level of scaremongering coming from many Remain/establishment sources, and echoed by some Remainers on here. In some cases its at best disingenuous, others need their meds upping. Yes there'll be a dip but its up to the government to manage that. That's what they are in place for. Enact the vote and manage the mechanics of it. 

I just wish people would be more even handed and use their intelligence to at least question the hysterical rantings. Research the rants, from both sides, for God's sake. At least that way you won't look like an idiot. George Osbourne is THE prize idiot. "Emergency budget," and "every family will lose Â£4,200 in the first year," and "800,000 jobs will be lost." And there's some people on here who quoted it as gospel. Idiots.

A simple look at the countries not in the EU but on its immediate borders, and look at their exports and *interdependencies*. Anyone even remotely believing the scare stories needs a professional carer.

Are there riots in those countries? No. Do they have problems trading with the EU? No. What is Switzerland's main manufactured product exported to the EU? Its medicines. The UK is the EU's second biggest supplier of pharmaceuticals. Do you honestly think the EU will put up a barrier to medicines? No doubt we'll hear the "argh but, argh but..." trotting out the same old rubbish...

The electorate is being softened up for a second vote, and it will be a large majority for Remain. Propaganda wins!


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## drdel (Dec 27, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I despair of the level of scaremongering coming from many Remain/establishment sources, and echoed by some Remainers on here. In some cases its at best disingenuous, others need their meds upping. Yes there'll be a dip but its up to the government to manage that. That's what they are in place for. Enact the vote and manage the mechanics of it.

I just wish people would be more even handed and use their intelligence to at least question the hysterical rantings. Research the rants, from both sides, for God's sake. At least that way you won't look like an idiot. George Osbourne is THE prize idiot. "Emergency budget," and "every family will lose Â£4,200 in the first year," and "800,000 jobs will be lost." And there's some people on here who quoted it as gospel. Idiots.

A simple look at the countries not in the EU but on its immediate borders, and look at their exports and *interdependencies*. Anyone even remotely believing the scare stories needs a professional carer.

Are there riots in those countries? No. Do they have problems trading with the EU? No. What is Switzerland's main manufactured product exported to the EU? Its medicines. The UK is the EU's second biggest supplier of pharmaceuticals. Do you honestly think the EU will put up a barrier to medicines? No doubt we'll hear the "argh but, argh but..." trotting out the same old rubbish...

The electorate is being softened up for a second vote, and it will be a large majority for Remain. Propaganda wins!
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree. The senior staff in most of these organisations have no experience of international finance or affairs but just want to be in the media and arrogantly play politics when they should be neutral. Unfortunately many of these same people have risen to the top, not because of merit but because of their 'political' game playing. I guess it would be unfair to use Sussex Police as an example of competence in communications !! e.g. "When is a drone not a drone"? = When the Chief speaks to the press.

We now have some dim whitted 'pop' stars bleating on.

I despair that logic and intelligence has gone down the tubes


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## drdel (Dec 27, 2018)

Harmony in the EU is being challenged as rules are being bent for France but not for Italy. Eastern members setting themselves against western members over immigration.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 27, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I despair of the level of scaremongering coming from many Remain/establishment sources, and echoed by some Remainers on here. In some cases its at best disingenuous, others need their meds upping. Yes there'll be a dip but its up to the government to manage that. That's what they are in place for. Enact the vote and manage the mechanics of it.

I just wish people would be more even handed and use their intelligence to at least question the hysterical rantings. Research the rants, from both sides, for God's sake. At least that way you won't look like an idiot. George Osbourne is THE prize idiot. "Emergency budget," and "every family will lose Â£4,200 in the first year," and "800,000 jobs will be lost." And there's some people on here who quoted it as gospel. Idiots.

A simple look at the countries not in the EU but on its immediate borders, and look at their exports and *interdependencies*. Anyone even remotely believing the scare stories needs a professional carer.

Are there riots in those countries? No. Do they have problems trading with the EU? No. What is Switzerland's main manufactured product exported to the EU? Its medicines. The UK is the EU's second biggest supplier of pharmaceuticals. Do you honestly think the EU will put up a barrier to medicines? No doubt we'll hear the "argh but, argh but..." trotting out the same old rubbish...

The electorate is being softened up for a second vote, and it will be a large majority for Remain. Propaganda wins!
		
Click to expand...

All the lady from the met said was '

_The UK's policing co-operation with the EU was based on a framework of "legal instruments" which would have to be replaced after its exit. While she hoped the two sides would end up with "something very similar", she accepted that if the UK left without a deal, this would be "very difficult to do short term". 
"We will have to replace some of the things we currently use in terms of access to databases, the way in which we can quickly arrest and extradite people, these kinds of things, we'll have to replace as effectively as we can. "That will be more costly, undoubtedly, slower, undoubtedly and, potentially, yes, put the public at risk."_

To me that is not project fear scaremongering, it is just a quite dry explanation of what they will differences there will be with no deal in place. If people want to see it as project fear and not to be read then OK, it's a free world.  Me, I just see it as a sensible explanation of what may happen if there is not deal when it comes to policing. She's not said there will be hoards of Romanian criminals raging through the cities of the UK unable to be arrested.  I mean what do people want her to say when asked the question as I'm sure she, along with just about every other person in the UK, would be expecting a bit of clarity on what will happen by now.


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## Mudball (Dec 27, 2018)

So my kids asked for an Xbox and Switch while the Mrs wants a holiday to the Caribbean...    As the head of the family (albeit unelected), I now need to find a way to pay for these even though my current desk job does not afford it.  I should remember that I 'asked' them what they wanted for Christmas is my mistake.  Now should i just grind away and deliver the 'family wish' or should i drum some perspective?


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 27, 2018)

If we win the referendum, our pensions will be invalid, there will be armed troops on the borders, we will not be allowed to use the pound, we will be forced to drive on the right, our academic qualifications will not be recognised, we will not be allowed to hold the Open golf championship or enter the European song contest, watch Eastenders, BBC News etc etc...â€¦â€¦..UK snowflakes ......â€¦.Now that is what I call Scaremongering.
Mind you I always saw the last three as a positive.


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			All the lady from the met said was '

_The UK's policing co-operation with the EU was based on a framework of "legal instruments" which would have to be replaced after its exit. While she hoped the two sides would end up with "something very similar", she accepted that if the UK left without a deal, this would be "very difficult to do short term". 
"We will have to replace some of the things we currently use in terms of access to databases, the way in which we can quickly arrest and extradite people, these kinds of things, we'll have to replace as effectively as we can. "That will be more costly, undoubtedly, slower, undoubtedly and, potentially, yes, put the public at risk."_

To me that is not project fear scaremongering, it is just a quite dry explanation of what they will differences there will be with no deal in place. If people want to see it as project fear and not to be read then OK, it's a free world.  Me, I just see it as a sensible explanation of what may happen if there is not deal when it comes to policing. She's not said there will be hoards of Romanian criminals raging through the cities of the UK unable to be arrested.  I mean what do people want her to say when asked the question as I'm sure she, along with just about every other person in the UK, would be expecting a bit of clarity on what will happen by now.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't quote Cressida Dick's piece, nor the senior politicians who, on Dec 10th, said there could be riots. Although I did quote George Osbourne on what he said. I could have added Mark Carney who himself has since said some of his predictions in the run up to the vote were widely inaccurate.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 27, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The electorate is being softened up for a second vote, and it will be a large majority for Remain. Propaganda wins!
		
Click to expand...

Is this why a second vote is not wanted? Perish the thought that a majority come back with a different result. It cannot just be forced through because a bunch of of people .. who have not got a plan or agree with what their definition of brexit is should force the rest of the country into something..seriously if they had a clue or a plan the country might have got behind it. It isnâ€™t scaremongering, itâ€™s just someone highlighting what could happen and a plan being required to deal with it.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 27, 2018)

As a London taxpayer I'd rather Ms Dick  focus on the what nows rather than the what ifs....


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Is this why a second vote is not wanted? Perish the thought that a majority come back with a different result. It cannot just be forced through because a bunch of of people .. who have not got a plan or agree with what their definition of brexit is should force the rest of the country into something..seriously if they had a clue or a plan the country might have got behind it. It isnâ€™t scaremongering, itâ€™s just someone highlighting what could happen and a plan being required to deal with it.
		
Click to expand...

I think some politicians and business people have spoken responsibly and I think others haven't. Do you think that the politicians who, earlier this month, spoke of riots was acting responsibly? Didn't you say London would be hit with lawlessness and a crimewave in an earlier post? Project Fear from you! Crimewave 

But on the subject of democracy. Its a simple process. Raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result of the vote. Not enacting the result of the vote is not democracy. I don't agree with Leaving but I don't subscribe to showing a lack of respect for the vote, unlike some.


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## bobmac (Dec 27, 2018)

Just imagine if there was a second referendum and remain won but the govt. said tough, we're still leaving


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 27, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Good; the quality of posting & debate on this thread has improved greatly since you stopped -stirring on it rather than posting anything of value.  If you could stay out this time I'm sure many would be grateful. 

Click to expand...

My position on Brexit is quite clear and it is quite simple.

Of course I recognise the past concerns in respect of the EU and the issues and concerns of all who voted to leave the EU; and that whatever happens in respect of a deal - post 29th March 2019 the UK will find a new economic level - and in respect of that I am hopeful and praying that economically that will be a good place, a level at least as good as where it is now.  However I fear it can only be less than would otherwise have been had we remained in the EU.

My concern is that in finding that new level the short term readjustment could have a significant and very painful impact on the poorer and most vulnerable of society - both through the short term impact on businesses and on the impact on the economy - the impact on the former costing jobs and on the latter forcing cutbacks in public spending.  For many suffering job loss or impacted by spending cutbacks that short term pain might well be worth it were the expectations of the benefits afforded from leaving be tangible, real - making a significant difference to their lives.

But I fear that that will not be the case.

There is I fear great risk that the expectations raised by the promises by leading Leave campaigners in the context of decades of demonising of the EU - or indeed false expectations that many leave voters were not disabused of by these leading campaigners - that these expectations just cannot be met by leaving the EU; that the difficult issues many come across in their day-to-day lives will still be there tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow - when the expectation was that leaving the EU would in the near future deliver answers to these issues.

And then where will we be?  We we be out of the EU and we will have 'regained control'.  But to what end.  The lives of many will quite probably be just as difficult if not more so - and there will still seem to be pretty much the same number of Eastern European voices in the local school or doctor surgery - and there will almost certainly be more faces from sub-continent.

And who will there be to blame?

I worry not particularly for the UK economy in the long term - the UK will recover to a level consistent with what may well be a reduced standing and influence in the world - and that will hopefully be OK.  More though, I worry for the future social cohesion and stability of the country, when life is harder for the poorer and most vulnerable - and the elite of the time will be telling them that it is a cost worth paying as the UK has 'regained control'.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			All the lady from the met said was '

_The UK's policing co-operation with the EU was based on a framework of "legal instruments" which would have to be replaced after its exit. While she hoped the two sides would end up with "something very similar", she accepted that if the UK left without a deal, this would be "very difficult to do short term". 
"We will have to replace some of the things we currently use in terms of access to databases, the way in which we can quickly arrest and extradite people, these kinds of things, we'll have to replace as effectively as we can. *"That will be more costly, undoubtedly, slower, undoubtedly and, potentially, yes, put the public at risk.*"_

Click to expand...

I can see why the bit in bold could be construed as scaremongering by some people. How can she possibly say that it will undoubtedly be more costly and slower until she knows what new systems will be put in place? It's possible that it will be more costly and slower but equally it's possible that we'll put in place systems that will cost exactly the same and be equally as quick as what we have now. It's the "undoubtedly" part of her quote that could be considered as scaremongering as at this point she can't possibly know that.


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## Dando (Dec 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My position on Brexit is quite clear and it is quite simple.

Of course I recognise the past concerns in respect of the EU and the issues and concerns of all who voted to leave the EU; and that whatever happens in respect of a deal - post 29th March 2019 the UK will find a new economic level - and in respect of that I am hopeful and praying that economically that will be a good place, a level at least as good as where it is now.  However I fear it can only be less than would otherwise have been had we remained in the EU.

My concern is that in finding that new level the short term readjustment could have a significant and very painful impact on the poorer and most vulnerable of society - both through the short term impact on businesses and on the impact on the economy - the impact on the former costing jobs and on the latter forcing cutbacks in public spending.  For many suffering job loss or impacted by spending cutbacks that short term pain might well be worth it were the expectations of the benefits afforded from leaving be tangible, real - making a significant difference to their lives.

But I fear that that will not be the case.

There is I fear great risk that the expectations raised by the promises by leading Leave campaigners in the context of decades of demonising of the EU - or indeed false expectations that many leave voters were not disabused of by these leading campaigners - that these expectations just cannot be met by leaving the EU; that the difficult issues many come across in their day-to-day lives will still be there tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow - when the expectation was that leaving the EU would in the near future deliver answers to these issues.

And then where will we be?  We we be out of the EU and we will have 'regained control'.  But to what end.  The lives of many will quite probably be just as difficult if not more so - and there will still seem to be pretty much the same number of Eastern European voices in the local school or doctor surgery - and there will almost certainly be more faces from sub-continent.

And who will there be to blame?

I worry not particularly for the UK economy in the long term - the UK will recover to a level consistent with what may well be a reduced standing and influence in the world - and that will hopefully be OK.  More though, I worry for the future social cohesion and stability of the country, when life is harder for the poorer and most vulnerable - and the elite of the time will be telling them that it is a cost worth paying as the UK has 'regained control'.
		
Click to expand...

Well that didnâ€™t last long did it!


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 27, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can see why the bit in bold could be construed as scaremongering by some people. How can she possibly say that it will undoubtedly be more costly and slower until she knows what new systems will be put in place? It's possible that it will be more costly and slower but equally it's possible that we'll put in place systems that will cost exactly the same and be equally as quick as what we have now. It's the "undoubtedly" part of her quote that could be considered as scaremongering as at this point she can't possibly know that.
		
Click to expand...

I think that if you have some type of system that works and involves many countries and many users of the system in said countries are used to, and that system is taken away, and you have what, 90 odd days and counting down to go till you need a brand new system in place to replace the existing one that has grown up over decades, with still on clue over if you will actually need this new system or not or how much time you will have to instigate a new system, then it is a fair assumption that, should you need a new system, initially it will cost a bit and there will be teething issues to say the least.  Any other assumptions are frankly a bit silly, based on the historical evidence of our ability of us to put new systems in place.  Which is what I think she was trying to say.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 27, 2018)

Dando said:



			Well that didnâ€™t last long did it!
		
Click to expand...

At least it wasnâ€™t the usual insulting diatribe about the single figure IQs or racist politics of Leavers; is it an early April Foolâ€™s stunt or has someone hijacked his account?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 27, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I think some politicians and business people have spoken responsibly and I think others haven't. Do you think that the politicians who, earlier this month, spoke of riots was acting responsibly? Didn't you say London would be hit with lawlessness and a crimewave in an earlier post? Project Fear from you! Crimewave 

But on the subject of democracy. Its a simple process. Raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result of the vote. Not enacting the result of the vote is not democracy. I don't agree with Leaving but I don't subscribe to showing a lack of respect for the vote, unlike some.
		
Click to expand...

I did not take sides regards the behaviour... pretty sure the leavers wonâ€™t be too pleased if they donâ€™t get their way.. after all, every comment is met with scaremongering itâ€™s never met with a consistent plan or an understanding of trade or WTO trade policy .. got a massive carpet to sweep it under.

Regards democracy ... wtf are you harping on about ?? ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Mudball (Dec 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think that if you have some type of system that works and involves many countries and many users of the system in said countries are used to, and that system is taken away, and you have what, 90 odd days and counting down to go till you need a brand new system in place to replace the existing one that has grown up over decades, with still on clue over if you will actually need this new system or not or how much time you will have to instigate a new system, then it is a fair assumption that, should you need a new system, initially it will cost a bit and there will be teething issues to say the least.  Any other assumptions are frankly a bit silly, based on the historical evidence of our ability of us to put new systems in place.  Which is what I think she was trying to say.
		
Click to expand...

Agree 100%.. I would give the Met commissioner more credit in this area than a bunch of folks on a golf forum (or politicians who think â€˜we have too many expertsâ€™)


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2018)

Barclays Bank. "We are fully prepared to be 100% operational in case of hard Brexit."

JCB, "trading on WTO terms is a matter of routine."

Aviva, "we have a presence in several global markets and so believe Brexit will not impact us at all."

GlaxoSmithKline, "Over the longer term, we believe Brexit will not have a material impact on our business."

The Chief Economist for Deutsche Bank, "I am not at all worried about the UK whatever the arrangement, they are the most flexible country in he world."


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My position on Brexit is quite clear and it is quite simple.
		
Click to expand...

Blah blah blah blah blah blah............ long on wind and bugger all in the way of facts as usual.

"Social cohesion" blah blah blah blah blah blah...... I suggest you visit some of the roughest areas of the UK. Go into one of the pubs there and start a conversation. Social cohesion hasn't existed for a long, long time. Talk to them about factory closures, industries that have since moved to the Czech Republic, or The Netherlands, or Poland or or or. Ask them what the EU has done for them.


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## Imurg (Dec 27, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Blah blah blah blah blah blah............ long on wind and bugger all in the way of facts as usual.

"Social cohesion" blah blah blah blah blah blah...... I suggest you visit some of the roughest areas of the UK. Go into one of the pubs there and start a conversation. Social cohesion hasn't existed for a long, long time. Talk to them about factory closures, industries that have since moved to the Czech Republic, or The Netherlands, or Poland or or or. Ask them what the EU has done for them.
		
Click to expand...

Apart from roads, aqueducts, sanitation, wine.........


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2018)

Imurg said:



			Apart from roads, aqueducts, sanitation, wine.........
		
Click to expand...

"Blessed are the cheesemakers."


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## bobmac (Dec 27, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Blah blah blah blah blah blah............ long on wind and bugger all in the way of facts as usual.

"Social cohesion" blah blah blah blah blah blah...... I suggest you visit some of the roughest areas of the UK. Go into one of the pubs there and start a conversation. Social cohesion hasn't existed for a long, long time. Talk to them about factory closures, industries that have since moved to the Czech Republic, or The Netherlands, or Poland or or or. Ask them what the EU has done for them.
		
Click to expand...


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## Tashyboy (Dec 27, 2018)

So in essence, when we Brexit. The EU and the European countries will not want to trade with us. Hmmmmmm. Would that be why the French have just bought a controlling stake in Gatwick now. The country's second busiest airport. Just why would they still want to do trade in this country. Now am not a business man. But I am sure they have not bought it to sell it when we leave in March. Of course when we want to enter the EU in the not to distant future we will have to pay for that pleasure. No doubt with some people flying to the EU from Gatwick. Money which will go straight into French coffers.
Wouldn't suprise me if it was not the French flying that drone to try and get the price to drop.


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## Old Skier (Dec 27, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			All the lady from the met said was '

_The UK's policing co-operation with the EU was based on a framework of "legal instruments" which would have to be replaced after its exit. While she hoped the two sides would end up with "something very similar", she accepted that if the UK left without a deal, this would be "very difficult to do short term". 
"We will have to replace some of the things we currently use in terms of access to databases, the way in which we can quickly arrest and extradite people, these kinds of things, we'll have to replace as effectively as we can. "That will be more costly, undoubtedly, slower, undoubtedly and, potentially, yes, put the public at risk."_.
		
Click to expand...

Funny how the lady forgot to mention, although later reported at the end of the piece on the BBC news, that the majority of the intelligence that is used by the EU police comes from -------- you've guessed it, the U.K. So if we're at risk it comes to pass if there is no cooperation, the rest of the EU public is at a bigger risk.

There are those that believe the world is flat.


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## robinthehood (Dec 27, 2018)

Billions already transferred out of the UK economy in to the EU.  Frankfurt lapping up city businesses. Remind  me what we stand to gain from this.


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## robinthehood (Dec 27, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Billions already transferred out of the UK economy in to the EU.  Frankfurt lapping up city businesses. Remind  me what we stand to gain from this.
		
Click to expand...

Although I'll add that fortunately Frankfurt has absolutely nothing much else going for it so not everyone will be rushing to go there.


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Billions already transferred out of the UK economy in to the EU.  Frankfurt lapping up city businesses. Remind  me what we stand to gain from this.
		
Click to expand...

Oh me sides! Oh, you're killing me!

Remind me of the "equivalence" deal signed on the 1st Nov giving the UK, as a non-EU financial centre, equal footing with EU investment houses. Remind me of the announcement that UK investment houses will continue to have the 'right' to continue investing in the EU post-Brexit. Remind me of the headline that announced over 1,000 EU financial jobs heading to the UK so that offices for their banks can be opened.

The only financial aspect not yet agreed is financial passporting of personal accounts, which is a worry to those of us with UK pensions being paid into UK accounts but needing to have money transferred into the EU. Good thing several of the UK banks have already announced the opening of an EU based subsidiary, e.g. RBS this week, so that monies can still be moved. That's something the pensions investment companies in the EU are very keen to see, especially Germany and France that have taken advantage of the second best growth market(UK) after the USA.

There will be billions lost a year. But I wonder how much money will move in the other direction to be processed by the EU banks setting up offices in the UK.

Two sides to every story...


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## robinthehood (Dec 27, 2018)

Equivalence ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ sorry thats just too funny. Do your research on what that really means and see how equivalent we'll be. 
Although to be fair there is a study that suggest the city is a drain on other industries in that it Hoover's up talent that could be developing those other industries. Maybe it 'll be a good thing..


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## Slime (Dec 28, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Billions already transferred out of the UK economy in to the EU.  Frankfurt lapping up city businesses. Remind  me what we stand to gain from this.
		
Click to expand...

Independence.


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## IanM (Dec 28, 2018)

Billions eh? Bit like Goldmans.....just extended lease on London office. 

In the week Macron says a referendum in France would see a Leave Majority, the EU allows France a budget deficit level denied to Italy...

Rules eh?   Oh how we laughed


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 28, 2018)

Old Skier said:



			Funny how the lady forgot to mention, although later reported at the end of the piece on the BBC news, that the majority of the intelligence that is used by the EU police comes from -------- you've guessed it, the U.K. So if we're at risk it comes to pass if there is no cooperation, the rest of the EU public is at a bigger risk.

There are those that believe the world is flat.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I think that was her point. She was not making any political points on Brexit, just saying a hard Brexit would have initial consequences for us in her area of expertise. Reading between the lines I am guessing she does not want a hard Brexit as it will make her, and her colleagues in Europe job, more difficult. Therefore the public everywhere will be under increased risk. Kind of a lose lose.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 28, 2018)

Sweep said:



			I donâ€™t think you can say Farageâ€™s influence was negligible. He alone practically forced Cameron to hold the referendum.
		
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I agree, saying Farage had no influence on the referendum is rather 'forgetful'.
Leader of the Brexit skinheads, the bus posters etc etc.
 At the time he had between 4 to 5 million supporters mainly in southern and eastern England.
They seem to have trotted back to the Tory party now.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 28, 2018)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8068963/england-leave-uk-to-quit-eu/

Many Scots have been saying this for a while now.
It is a real win win situation, England leaves with it's share of the UK debt [85%] under the same terms that they 'warned' Scotland about in 2014.
They can just do it, no Brexit, no EU debt and gaining the isolation that they crave.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 28, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Barclays Bank. "We are fully prepared to be 100% operational in case of hard Brexit."

JCB, "trading on WTO terms is a matter of routine."

Aviva, "we have a presence in several global markets and so believe Brexit will not impact us at all."

GlaxoSmithKline, "Over the longer term, we believe Brexit will not have a material impact on our business."

The Chief Economist for Deutsche Bank, "I am not at all worried about the UK whatever the arrangement, they are the most flexible country in he world."
		
Click to expand...

So Aviva are essentially saying that as  they are in several global markets so don't have to rely on the UKs economy that will go down the tubes, they will be fine.  Well bully for Aviva.  

Also the head of JCB has always been an ardent Brexiter, bit of a maverick (quit the CBI) donated 100 grand to vote leave and a vitriolic opposer of EU regulations. They also dominate the Indian market and do not have to rely so much on Europe. Which is perfectly fine and well done to them for becoming a great British manufacturing success story, but they are possibly not such an impartial commentator on the potential consequences and other companies are not in such a fortunate position with regards to global markets.


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## Old Skier (Dec 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			So Aviva are essentially saying that as  they are in several global markets so don't have to rely on the UKs economy that will go down the tubes, they will be fine.  Well bully for Aviva.  

Also the head of JCB has always been an ardent Brexiter, bit of a maverick (quit the CBI) donated 100 grand to vote leave and a vitriolic opposer of EU regulations. They also dominate the Indian market and do not have to rely so much on Europe. Which is perfectly fine and well done to them for becoming a great British manufacturing success story, but they are possibly not such an impartial commentator on the potential consequences and other companies are not in such a fortunate position with regards to global markets.
		
Click to expand...

Hot news, nobody's impartial. 

Same argument can be made against the remains chat.
Funny how some people fail to accept that.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 28, 2018)

Old Skier said:



*Hot news, nobody's impartial.*

Same argument can be made against the remains chat.
Funny how some people fail to accept that.
		
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Even hotter news, yes some people or organisations are. 

There is a difference between coming to a conclusion after showing no previous bias and examining the facts/using the best estimates based on their expertise in that field  Yes that conclusion will come down on one side or the other so some people will see it as biased if it does not adhere to their view.  But their whole USP is the fact they are impartial.  

The other situation is where an organisation or person has a vested interest in one outcome or is being funded by one side of the argument.  I agree it is getting increasingly difficult to find the former, especially in a world where organisations use names like European Research Group to deliberately confuse and give a false impression, but they do exist.  Trick is to ask where any research came from and what their background is.  Some people are just as capable of filtering our Alistair Campbell as they are Nigel Farage.


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## drdel (Dec 28, 2018)

What next....

A Dutch pop group has released a song focussed on why Brits should stay in EU...!!!!

And,

France, unlike Italy, is being allowed to break the EU budget deficit limits for next year because it (Macron) is a strong supporter of EU integration - bribery?


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## MegaSteve (Dec 28, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I agree, saying Farage had no influence on the referendum is rather 'forgetful'.
Leader of the Brexit skinheads, the bus posters etc etc.
At the time he had between 4 to 5 million supporters mainly in southern and eastern England.
They seem to have trotted back to the Tory party now.

Click to expand...

Uummm the total UK wide vote for UKIP in 2015 was less than 4 million...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 28, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I despair of the level of scaremongering coming from many Remain/establishment sources, and echoed by some Remainers on here. In some cases its at best disingenuous, others need their meds upping. Yes there'll be a dip but its up to the government to manage that. That's what they are in place for. Enact the vote and manage the mechanics of it. 

I just wish people would be more even handed and use their intelligence to at least question the hysterical rantings. Research the rants, from both sides, for God's sake. At least that way you won't look like an idiot. George Osbourne is THE prize idiot. "Emergency budget," and "every family will lose Â£4,200 in the first year," and "800,000 jobs will be lost." And there's some people on here who quoted it as gospel. Idiots.

A simple look at the countries not in the EU but on its immediate borders, and look at their exports and *interdependencies*. Anyone even remotely believing the scare stories needs a professional carer.

Are there riots in those countries? No. Do they have problems trading with the EU? No. What is Switzerland's main manufactured product exported to the EU? Its medicines. The UK is the EU's second biggest supplier of pharmaceuticals. Do you honestly think the EU will put up a barrier to medicines? No doubt we'll hear the "argh but, argh but..." trotting out the same old rubbish...

The electorate is being softened up for a second vote, and it will be a large majority for Remain. Propaganda wins!
		
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Excellent post Brian, as always you are the voice of reason ðŸ‘


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 28, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Barclays Bank. "We are fully prepared to be 100% operational in case of hard Brexit."

JCB, "trading on WTO terms is a matter of routine."

Aviva, "we have a presence in several global markets and so believe Brexit will not impact us at all."

GlaxoSmithKline, "Over the longer term, we believe Brexit will not have a material impact on our business."

The Chief Economist for Deutsche Bank, "I am not at all worried about the UK whatever the arrangement, they are the most flexible country in he world."

Drive4show Golf "I will continue to buy foreign golf equipment, imports will not be affected"
		
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Fixed for you Brian ðŸ¤£


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## SocketRocket (Dec 28, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Even hotter news, yes some people or organisations are.

There is a difference between coming to a conclusion after showing no previous bias and examining the facts/using the best estimates based on their expertise in that field  Yes that conclusion will come down on one side or the other so some people will see it as biased if it does not adhere to their view.  But their whole USP is the fact they are impartial. 

The other situation is where an organisation or person has a vested interest in one outcome or is being funded by one side of the argument.  I agree it is getting increasingly difficult to find the former, especially in a world where organisations use names like European Research Group to deliberately confuse and give a false impression, but they do exist.  Trick is to ask where any research came from and what their background is.  Some people are just as capable of filtering our Alistair Campbell as they are Nigel Farage.
		
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What concerns me a little that many of the remain fraternity seem to wish their country  to fail just to say 'I told you so'  its rather sad really. I understand its difficult for many but how much better it would be if people would accept the outcome and put their backs into the countries future rather than all this wailing and gnashing of teeth.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 28, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Uummm the total UK wide vote for UKIP in 2015 was less than 4 million...
		
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Ummmmmmmm.....but that was before they actually started believing things written on the sides of a bus and excluding the EDL sub section.
Also a much larger turn out in the Referendum,


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## SocketRocket (Dec 28, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ummmmmmmm.....but that was before they actually started believing things written on the sides of a bus and excluding the EDL sub section.

Click to expand...

The smiley does not mask your trolling.


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## User62651 (Dec 28, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			What concerns me a little that *many of the remain fraternity seem to wish their country  to fail *just to say 'I told you so'  its rather sad really. I understand its difficult for many but how much better it would be if people would accept the outcome and put their backs into the countries future rather than all this wailing and gnashing of teeth.
		
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We're still in the EU so it's too early to claim that. Some people are trying to stop Brexit because they *don't* want the country to fail. And there lies the problem, no consensus at all. Once we have left in March19 then we'll see if there's any kind of pulling together but no matter how it goes post Brexit, both sides will dress it up as they were correct, no matter what evidence is provided. This will rumble on and on for at least a decade.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Billions already transferred out of the UK economy in to the EU.  Frankfurt lapping up city businesses. Remind  me what we stand to gain from this.
		
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What we stand to gain from this?

No one is going to waste there time trying to explain what we have to gain from this, because your not prepared to listen.


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## robinthehood (Dec 28, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			What we stand to gain from this?

No one is going to waste there time trying to explain what we have to gain from this, because your not prepared to listen.
		
Click to expand...

Gain from what? We 're losing jobs  and investment. 
Please tell me what we will gain. Please don't tell me some guff about independence.


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## Mudball (Dec 28, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Blah blah blah blah blah blah............ long on wind and bugger all in the way of facts as usual.

"Social cohesion" blah blah blah blah blah blah...... I suggest you visit some of the roughest areas of the UK. Go into one of the pubs there and start a conversation. Social cohesion hasn't existed for a long, long time. <b> Talk to them about factory closures, industries that have since moved to the Czech Republic, or The Netherlands, or Poland or or or. </b> Ask them what the EU has done for them.
		
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Brexit will be a great social equaliser.. we could add Financial Services to the mix as they move to Paris, Frankfurt etc. Donâ€™t worry retail banks will still be there but the profit making parts will move out. 
So this is a great way to bridge the north - south Financial divide.. bring on Brexit


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## robinthehood (Dec 29, 2018)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46704522
Another 100mil needlessly wasted on brexit ferries.


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## Dando (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46704522
Another 100mil needlessly wasted on brexit ferries.
		
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Small change compared to what we send to the EU every week


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 29, 2018)

The chickens have come home to roost

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/homecom.jpg


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## Old Skier (Dec 29, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The chickens have come home to roost

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/homecom.jpg

Click to expand...

Another load of rubbish from your on line blog


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## Slime (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Gain from what? We 're losing jobs  and investment.
Please tell me what we will gain.* Please don't tell me some guff about independence*.
		
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## robinthehood (Dec 29, 2018)

QUOTE="Slime, post: 1932052, member: 15101"]



[/QUOTE]
Is there a point in there?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Gain from what? We 're losing jobs  and investment.
Please tell me what we will gain. Please don't tell me some guff about independence.
		
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Losing Jobs? Employment is at its highest ever.  Investment and what investment is this, maybe you can be a little more specific or is it something you heard down the pub.  I am a Brexiteer if thats a label to be stuck on me but I can see there are pros and cons for leaving the EU, it won't be all beer and skittles. However people with attitudes like yours really leave me cold, you have absolutely no faith in your country to stand on its own two feet, all you do is snipe away with bits of biased news and tittle tattle to support your negative attitudes.   I wish you would clear off and live in your EU utopia where you will feel nice and cosy.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 29, 2018)




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## drdel (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Gain from what? We 're losing jobs  and investment.
Please tell me what we will gain. Please don't tell me some guff about independence.
		
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If you opened your eyes and looked at the state of the member states you will see growth has stagnated and economic performance has been distorted and manipulated by the  huge level of psuedo cash pumped in by QE from the ECB. Sums which brussels has admited is unsustainable. The UK is one of the few net contributors on who the burden of the massively increased EU budget will fall. Unemployment in many members, especially among young people is a disaster. France can't balance its budget within the ECB rules and is worse than Italy.  There is an East / West split in EU members around democracy.

However you want to Remain shackled to this political experiment that has forced a common currency on the  majority of members when those in the Eurozone have widely different economic bases.

Wake up, growth is in the RoW.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			QUOTE="Slime, post: 1932052, member: 15101"]





Click to expand...

Is there a point in there?[/QUOTE]

I think he is trying to convey the fact that Leavers cannot handle the truth about Brexit..... I could be wrong though.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 29, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is there a point in there?
		
Click to expand...

I think he is trying to convey the fact that Leavers cannot handle the truth about Brexit..... I could be wrong though.[/QUOTE]



I though the TRUTH was
Faced with a choice of â€˜Do you want to stay in the EU or Do you want to leave the EUâ€™ the choice was clear, partisan affiliations played no part.
And so 17.4m voted according with their hearts and experiences in life, Project Fear was championed by Red and Blue alike and had behind them the power of the State.
Despite the totally disproportionate funding and negative coverage of what a vote to leave would mean the vote was to Leave.
Faced with this reality the powers that be were left with only one conclusion, which was, youâ€™re too thick and youâ€™ve been lied to.....

So having been educated over the last 2 years or so by those that know better than us letâ€™s have another vote on exactly the same question.
Somehow though I donâ€™t think weâ€™ll be given those very simple choices, weâ€™re to thick to understand them.


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## Slime (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			QUOTE="Slime, post: 1932052, member: 15101"]





Click to expand...

Is there a point in there?[/QUOTE]

Yes, but it obviously goes straight over your head ...................................... you make sure of that.


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## USER1999 (Dec 29, 2018)

Well, my sister is now a German. Probably a sensible choice. I have never understood expats, who live in a country for 30 years, don't want citizenship there, and still want a vote over here. Bonkers.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 29, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			I think he is trying to convey the fact that Leavers cannot handle the truth about Brexit..... I could be wrong though.



I though the TRUTH was
Faced with a choice of â€˜Do you want to stay in the EU or Do you want to leave the EUâ€™ the choice was clear, partisan affiliations played no part.
And so 17.4m voted according with their hearts and experiences in life, Project Fear was championed by Red and Blue alike and had behind them the power of the State.
Despite the totally disproportionate funding and negative coverage of what a vote to leave would mean the vote was to Leave.
Faced with this reality the powers that be were left with only one conclusion, which was, youâ€™re too thick and youâ€™ve been lied to.....

So having been educated over the last 2 years or so by those that know better than us letâ€™s have another vote on exactly the same question.
Somehow though I donâ€™t think weâ€™ll be given those very simple choices, weâ€™re to thick to understand them.
		
Click to expand...

Well that's one way of looking at it.  But I am duty bound to point out that both sides had 7 million to spend on campaigning and only one side was fined by the electoral commission for exceeding that budget, acting in what some may cruelly suggest was a deliberate attempt to deceive and conceal the fact that they were breaking that particular law.  But I'm happy to ignore that if you are and convince myself the opposite actually occurred. After all, who needs experts.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 29, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well that's one way of looking at it.  But I am duty bound to point out that both sides had 7 million to spend on campaigning and only one side was fined by the electoral commission for exceeding that budget, acting in what some may cruelly suggest was a deliberate attempt to deceive and conceal the fact that they were breaking that particular law.  But I'm happy to ignore that if you are and convince myself the opposite actually occurred. After all, who needs experts.
		
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The fine was just a laughably obvious political attack on Brexit.
 Remember the men in dark suits will do EVERYTHING in there powers to stop Brexit.


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## User62651 (Dec 29, 2018)

Fade and Die said:



			The fine was just a laughably obvious political attack on Brexit.
Remember the men in dark suits will do EVERYTHING in there powers to stop Brexit.
		
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'Siege mentality' defined in that post.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 29, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			'Siege mentality' defined in that post.
		
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Thatâ€™s not a bad description of the situation really.


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## Hobbit (Dec 29, 2018)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well that's one way of looking at it.  But I am duty bound to point out that both sides had 7 million to spend on campaigning and only one side was fined by the electoral commission for exceeding that budget, acting in what some may cruelly suggest was a deliberate attempt to deceive and conceal the fact that they were breaking that particular law.  But I'm happy to ignore that if you are and convince myself the opposite actually occurred. After all, who needs experts.
		
Click to expand...

Why is it that almost every Remainer conveniently forgets the Â£9.3 million Cameron spent immediately before campaigning officially began for Remain. Ah but it was within the rules is often heard. Sorry but colour it anyway you like, Cameron spent Â£9.3m before the official start date on leaflets for every household.

There's plenty of headlines about if you'd care to look...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			QUOTE="Slime, post: 1932052, member: 15101"]





Click to expand...

Is there a point in there?[/QUOTE]
I saw one.


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## User62651 (Dec 29, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



View attachment 26220

Click to expand...

Newsflash - People camped in Calais illegally trying to get on trucks to UK are not EU migrants so not really relevant to this thread. EU or no EU they'd be there, Italy and Greece have to deal with far far worse than we do in terms of illegal immigrants.


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## robinthehood (Dec 29, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Losing Jobs? Employment is at its highest ever.  Investment and what investment is this, maybe you can be a little more specific or is it something you heard down the pub.  I am a Brexiteer if thats a label to be stuck on me but I can see there are pros and cons for leaving the EU, it won't be all beer and skittles. However people with attitudes like yours really leave me cold, you have absolutely no faith in your country to stand on its own two feet, all you do is snipe away with bits of biased news and tittle tattle to support your negative attitudes.   I wish you would clear off and live in your EU utopia where you will feel nice and cosy.
		
Click to expand...

 You understand that we are still in the EU ..That low employment was  achieved while part of the EU.  All I get from brexit fans are sound bites about taking back  control,  independence,  350 million a week etc.. 
..really  all I see in here are people howling at the moon.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 29, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Newsflash - People camped in Calais illegally trying to get on trucks to UK are not EU migrants so not really relevant to this thread. EU or no EU they'd be there, Italy and Greece have to deal with far far worse than we do in terms of illegal immigrants.
		
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Newsflash; they are either asylum seekers or economic migrants, which as I understand it, means that France has a duty to deal with them either as asylum seekers if that is their country of entry or potentially as illegal immigrants.  The French method appears to be to ignore their responsibilities and see how many they can shove across the Channel to their mates in Blighty.  Still, we're all in it together as equal partners, aren't we...


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## User62651 (Dec 29, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Newsflash; they are either asylum seekers or economic migrants, which as I understand it, means that France has a duty to deal with them either as asylum seekers if that is their country of entry or potentially as illegal immigrants.  The French method appears to be to ignore their responsibilities and see how many they can shove across the Channel to their mates in Blighty.  Still, we're all in it together as equal partners, aren't we... 

Click to expand...

Well the French bulldozed the old camps and their people have all the hassle of it, you make it sound like they're loading them onto trucks for the UK, they're not. Migrants from middle east and north africa are not here because of the EU, but no surprise Brexiteers claim they are.


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## drdel (Dec 29, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Well the French bulldozed the old camps and their people have all the hassle of it, you make it sound like they're loading them onto trucks for the UK, they're not. Migrants from middle east and north africa are not here because of the EU, but no surprise Brexiteers claim they are.
		
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BUT - The EU 'rules' are that  non-EU migrants are to be dealt with by the country of entry. Thus by deduction these people are not being dealt with by the member state by which they entered and are being aided by France. Organised crime syndicates are exploiting the 'pass-the-buck attitude of France and others: these people who are mostly economic migrants, often young able-bodied men would otherwise not find the transport facilities available.

Perhaps were the EU to sensibly manage and truthfully address the issue the 'Brexit' vote may have been closer/different.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 29, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Well the French bulldozed the old camps and their people have all the hassle of it, you make it sound like they're loading them onto trucks for the UK, they're not. Migrants from middle east and north africa are not here because of the EU, but no surprise Brexiteers claim they are.
		
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Try to imagine these people in the UK trying to get to France. Do you think for one minute we would leave them camped out.  If we did there would be howls of complaint that we were treating them like animals and it would be the hand wringing liberals on this site at the forefront.  The French are despicable in this regard and it's incredible that they are being defended by you


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## Hobbit (Dec 29, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Well the French bulldozed the old camps and their people have all the hassle of it, you make it sound like they're loading them onto trucks for the UK, they're not. Migrants from middle east and north africa are not here because of the EU, but no surprise Brexiteers claim they are.
		
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There's a bit of irony in your post. You are right, the migrants are not here because of the EU, they want the British benefits system, not the French one. Have a read of what the Sudanese and Ethiopians say about free housing in the UK.

The Dublin Treaty, now on version 3, fails miserably. The French know full well that those in the camps are there illegally but do they process them? No. But what does the UK do about the illegals in France? Well, for a start they've contributed millions to help France deal with the issue. They've also sent Immigration officers to France to help them deal with the problem. And guess what, the UK sends millions to Turkey to help processing immigrants. The UK doesn't abdicate its responsibilities, although they haven't taken up their full quota of immigrants. Shock! Only Germany and Sweden are on track to do that.

Germany wants version 4 of the Dublin Treaty, putting an end to asylum seekers must apply for asylum in the first country they arrive in. They want them shared around the EU. That isn't going down well with Eastern Europe, especially Hungary. Have a read of how the EU fiddled the votes against Hungary by not counting the abstentions in the calculation, as they are supposed to do. EU fiddling the rules to suit - sounds like Italy's budget getting refused but France's getting passed, even though it is worse than Italy's.

As for "no surprise Brexiteers claim they are..." Do *ALL* Brexiteers claim that or *SOME* Brexiteers claim that? Are you guilty of the typical generalisations many Remainers make? Looks like you are.


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## Slime (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			You understand that we are still in the EU ..That low employment was  achieved while part of the EU.  All I get from brexit fans are sound bites about taking back  control,  independence,  350 million a week etc..
..really  *all I see in here are people howling at the moon.*

Click to expand...

Well, look a bit deeper.
Also, I think taking back control is a very strong and valid argument ............................. don't you?


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 29, 2018)

maxfli65 said:



			Well the French bulldozed the old camps and their people have all the hassle of it, *you make it sound like they're loading them onto trucks for the UK*, they're not. Migrants from middle east and north africa are not here because of the EU, but no surprise Brexiteers claim they are.
		
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They might as well be; they don't want the responsibility of dealing with them as they should so they leave them to carry on their journey.  Are you claiming that they are doing what they should be doing then?


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## robinthehood (Dec 29, 2018)

Slime said:



			Well, look a bit deeper.
Also, I think taking back control is a very strong and valid argument ............................. don't you?
		
Click to expand...

I've looked and all that I can find is stuff about how we can get blue passports,  powerful vacuum cleaners and old style light bulbs! Please show me that there is more .


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## Slime (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			I've looked and all that I can find is stuff about how we can get blue passports,  powerful vacuum cleaners and old style light bulbs! *Please show me that there is more .*

Click to expand...

I would, but you'd never see anything through your black-out blinkers.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			I've looked and all that I can find is stuff about how we can get blue passports,  powerful vacuum cleaners and old style light bulbs! Please show me that there is more .
		
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Ive read some rubbish on here but thats right up there with the best. Its pointless responding to your questions as you ignore the replies and then repeat them all over again.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 29, 2018)

Couldn't put it better myself. Well put Sheila.


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## robinthehood (Dec 29, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Ive read some rubbish on here but thats right up there with the best. Its pointless responding to your questions as you ignore the replies and then repeat them all over again.
		
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What replies?
You see that's all I ever get.  You have nothing and offer nothing .

2 posters in succession with nothing to offer except insults  , not even the smallest crumb in support of leaving the EU


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## bobmac (Dec 29, 2018)

The season of good will to all men didn't last long


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## Hobbit (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Billions already transferred out of the UK economy in to the EU.  Frankfurt lapping up city businesses. Remind  me what we stand to gain from this.
		
Click to expand...

Have you got any evidence of this? I can find an article, dated Nov 18th, in The Guardian which states a lobby group have compiled a report that this will happen. Strange that the lobby group are pro-Remain. And amongst all the articles I looked at I find that Goldman Sachs has confirmed a Â£1.2bn investment in the UK.

Instead of your usual soundbites why not actually post up some links in support of your case. You decry others for not providing any evidence yet all we see from you is hot air. Back it up, preferably with something more than more soundbites of what might happen. How about xxxx bank announces it is moving? Not might move but is moving in its entirety.

On the issue of "Equivalence," which you said I should research. How about providing some evidence of what the EU's ideas of equivalence are, and instead of shouting off that its flawed, show its flawed.


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## Slime (Dec 29, 2018)

bobmac said:



			The season of good will to all men didn't last long
		
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Just trying to lighten the mood.


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## robinthehood (Dec 29, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Have you got any evidence of this? I can find an article, dated Nov 18th, in The Guardian which states a lobby group have compiled a report that this will happen. Strange that the lobby group are pro-Remain. And amongst all the articles I looked at I find that Goldman Sachs has confirmed a Â£1.2bn investment in the UK.

Instead of your usual soundbites why not actually post up some links in support of your case. You decry others for not providing any evidence yet all we see from you is hot air. Back it up, preferably with something more than more soundbites of what might happen. How about xxxx bank announces it is moving? Not might move but is moving in its entirety.

On the issue of "Equivalence," which you said I should research. How about providing some evidence of what the EU's ideas of equivalence are, and instead of shouting off that its flawed, show its flawed.
		
Click to expand...

Nah I'm out.  It's pretty evident you boys have nothing other than the same old rehashed crap.
Good luck with it all.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			What replies?
You see that's all I ever get.  You have nothing and offer nothing .

2 posters in succession with nothing to offer except insults  , not even the smallest crumb in support of leaving the EU
		
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Because all you offer is a â€œbetter hooverâ€ as a response to people who are trying to have a serious discussion about something that will affect us all. Try having a reasonable discussion, say with Hobbit and the little personal digs might stop.


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## robinthehood (Dec 29, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			Because all you offer is a â€œbetter hooverâ€ as a response to people who are trying to have a serious discussion about something that will affect us all. Try having a reasonable discussion, say with Hobbit and the little personal digs might stop.
		
Click to expand...

My last word. 
Google what are the benefits of leaving the EU.
2nd article states light bulbs, vacuums and blue passports among other assorted nonsense. 
Like I said .
Good luck


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## Hobbit (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Nah I'm out.  It's pretty evident you boys have nothing other than the same old rehashed crap.
Good luck with it all.
		
Click to expand...

That's a shame, but not unexpected.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			My last word.
Google what are the benefits of leaving the EU.
2nd article states light bulbs, vacuums and blue passports among other assorted nonsense.
Like I said .
Good luck
		
Click to expand...

So you dont see the irony of quoting something that no one on here has said. No brexiteer has said. But Google has pointed out. Hmmm thats a strong arguement.


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## Hobbit (Dec 29, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			So you dont see the irony of quoting something that no one on here has said. No brexiteer has said. But Google has pointed out. Hmmm thats a strong arguement.
		
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I've Googled it, as he suggested. I tried various wordings and, surprise surprise, I got sensible articles from both sides of the debate. No mention of light bulbs or vacuum cleaners. "Methinks he doth protest too much." Or the modern version, "pants on fire."


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			I've Googled it, as he suggested. I tried various wordings and, surprise surprise, I got sensible articles from both sides of the debate. No mention of light bulbs or vacuum cleaners. "Methinks he doth protest too much." Or the modern version, "pants on fire."
		
Click to expand...

To be fair to him, if you highlight "what are the benefits of leaving the EU" in his post, right click and search google the second article that I got was this one.....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/20-reasons-you-should-vote-to-leave-the-european-union/

which does indeed mention "light bulbs, vacuums and blue passports".


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			To be fair to him, if you highlight "what are the benefits of leaving the EU" in his post, right click and search google the second article that I got was this one.....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/20-reasons-you-should-vote-to-leave-the-european-union/

which does indeed mention "light bulbs, vacuums and blue passports".
		
Click to expand...

Blimey I canâ€™t be someone actually published that


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## Hobbit (Dec 29, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			To be fair to him, if you highlight "what are the benefits of leaving the EU" in his post, right click and search google the second article that I got was this one.....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/20-reasons-you-should-vote-to-leave-the-european-union/

which does indeed mention "light bulbs, vacuums and blue passports".
		
Click to expand...

Fair play. It also mentions some decent stuff too, but he failed to mention that... wonder why....


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Fair play. It also mentions some decent stuff too, but he failed to mention that... wonder why....
		
Click to expand...

I think that we both (and in fact all) know why he failed to mention it. He's firmly in the SiLH bracket of Remainers who are completely blind to anything that could be considered a positive for Brexit or a negative for the EU.


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## robinthehood (Dec 29, 2018)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think that we both (and in fact all) know why he failed to mention it. He's firmly in the SiLH bracket of Remainers who are completely blind to anything that could be considered a positive for Brexit or a negative for the EU.
		
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I'm not in anyone's bracket. I voted to stay but that's not happening so we're going to have to embrace whatever comes and try to make some sort of success from it 
The reality is we are in a total mess and Cameron et al have simply succeeded in dividing a nation.
I'm not  particularly pro EU , I just want what's best for my family and business,  sounds selfish but c'est la vie


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			I'm not in anyone's bracket. I voted to stay but that's not happening so we're going to have to embrace whatever comes and try to make some sort of success from it
The reality is we are in a total mess and Cameron et al have simply succeeded in dividing a nation.
I'm not  particularly pro EU , I just want what's best for my family and business,  sounds selfish but c'est la vie
		
Click to expand...

As you keep asking others what are the benefits of leaving the EU, what are the benefits of being in the EU?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			I'm not in anyone's bracket. I voted to stay but that's not happening so we're going to have to embrace whatever comes and try to make some sort of success from it
The reality is we are in a total mess and Cameron et al have simply succeeded in dividing a nation.
I'm not  particularly pro EU , I just want what's best for my family and business,  sounds selfish but c'est la vie
		
Click to expand...

You see, that is the best post you have put on this thread. Every sentance I agree with you. I am not in anyone's bracket. I voted Leave and can see it being crap before it gets better, and as a country we have to all muck in and make some success from the shit soup that Cameron and others have left us in. It is not selfish to want what's best for me, my family. But,
What I will say is that whether we left or stayed. The politicians, the ones that created this split country will not suffer one bit like Joe Public will do.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 29, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			I'm not in anyone's bracket. I voted to stay but that's not happening so we're going to have to embrace whatever comes and try to make some sort of success from it
The reality is we are in a total mess and Cameron et al have simply succeeded in dividing a nation.
I'm not  particularly pro EU , I just want what's best for my family and business,  sounds selfish but c'est la vie
		
Click to expand...

OK, how about control of our Borders, Money, Laws, Trade, Fishing and destiny.   I can guess your reply will be negative on all these as that seems to be your makeup. If you are concerned about your family then can you guarantee that a future in the EU will be the best way forward for them and if so then show the benefits and why becoming an independent country will be bad for them.  Also regarding business, do you run your own business, do you employ people, what aspectects of your business will be worse off and why, will you have new opportunities outside the EU and will you be able to  embrace the changes necessary to take advantage of opportunities.  OR as I suspect you have a closed mind and have not bothered to look beyond your blinkers.  The EU does not guarantee a market for you, your products and services must be good enough to attract sales, that's always been the way it works.  Don't bother replying if its just to say 'what will Brexit do for me'  the answer to that is nothing, the more relevant point is 'What can you do for Brexit'


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 30, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			You see, that is the best post you have put on this thread. Every sentance I agree with you. I am not in anyone's bracket. I voted Leave and can see it being crap before it gets better, and as a country we have to all muck in and make some success from the shit soup that Cameron and others have left us in. It is not selfish to want what's best for me, my family. But,
What I will say is that whether we left or stayed. The politicians, the ones that created this split country will not suffer one bit like Joe Public will do.
		
Click to expand...

I too voted Leave and can also see it getting worse before it gets better, but not as bad as it will be when we are one of the 4 net contributors who will be left to pick up the pieces and the bill when the whole sorry circus eventually disappears up its own backside.  Just one of many potential benefits in getting out for me.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 30, 2018)

Sweep said:



			To most Brexiteers, trade is the only reason for being in the EU. However you have to understand that others actually consider federalism, currency, EU laws and courts, EU parliament and commission, UK contribution, FOM, unchecked immigration etc etc all good things and are reasons in themselves for being in the EU.


As far as I am aware, the CE mark is applied to products indicating conformity with EU standards on environment, health & safety etc. Not all products sold or imported into the EU have to carry it. I donâ€™t see why such products that do carry the mark should have it withdrawn because they are made in the UK and the UK has left.

The main issue with WTO is on the face of it, duty. Usually 6.5% but can be changed product by product by the importing country. However, as we have seen with the US and China, if one starts increasing the tariffs the other one will too. In a free trade deal like we have with the EU as members now, there is no duty.

*In truth, the main problem with not having a free trade deal is customs and the delivery delay it causes. This is why an openish goods border with goods cleared on delivery at the consignees premises is being touted.*

Click to expand...

Whoâ€™s touting that? As far as Iâ€™m aware government arenâ€™t considering that at all. All the politicians that have been in Dover and spoken to customs agents and freight forwarders have expressed their opinion that it will all clear as it currently does.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 30, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			I too voted Leave and can also see it getting worse before it gets better, but not as bad as it will be when we are one of the 4 net contributors who will be left to pick up the pieces and the bill when the whole sorry circus eventually disappears up its own backside.  Just one of many potential benefits in getting out for me.
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest how bad do you personally expect it to get and how long do you think it will take before it gets better.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 30, 2018)

For me it is â€œ how long is a piece of stringâ€ to both questions.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 30, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			For me it is â€œ how long is a piece of stringâ€ to both questions.
		
Click to expand...

Well, for me, we've been on a downward spiral since signing on the dotted line in '75... Staying in would only see that continue... With leaving, I believe, we'll have a far better chance of reversing that trend... Will require some changed attitudes but not beyond our grasp....


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## Tashyboy (Dec 30, 2018)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, for me, we've been on a downward spiral since signing on the dotted line in '75... Staying in would only see that continue... With leaving, I believe, we'll have a far better chance of reversing that trend... Will require some changed attitudes but not beyond our grasp....
		
Click to expand...

I should of added it is a piece of string i am quite happy to keep hold of ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2018)

I get the impression that some would prefer the UK to fail rather than Brexit be a success.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I very much doubt that but i suppose that could be countered with the impression some want the EU to fail if the UK stayed in or had a deal
		
Click to expand...

Not me though. I hope the EU does well, I have many friends and colleagues in the Eu and hope they prosper, just like I wish my own people to.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 30, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, how about control of our Borders, Money, Laws, Trade, Fishing and destiny.   I can guess your reply will be negative on all these as that seems to be your makeup. If you are concerned about your family then can you guarantee that a future in the EU will be the best way forward for them and if so then show the benefits and why becoming an independent country will be bad for them.  Also regarding business, do you run your own business, do you employ people, what aspectects of your business will be worse off and why, will you have new opportunities outside the EU and will you be able to  embrace the changes necessary to take advantage of opportunities.  OR as I suspect you have a closed mind and have not bothered to look beyond your blinkers.  The EU does not guarantee a market for you, your products and services must be good enough to attract sales, that's always been the way it works.  Don't bother replying if its just to say 'what will Brexit do for me'  the answer to that is nothing, the more relevant point is 'What can you do for Brexit'
		
Click to expand...

Are you happy with the current uk system and the people running it? 
If so then you will be happy witheir negotiations.. your advocating that these people I.e the current government should have more power ? Really ? This bunch are corrupt.
Your also opening us up to having really poor areas that wonâ€™t get financial support because the money will only go to areas that voted for the ruling government unlike the Erasmus projects .. oops did I mention something positive about the EU .. ðŸ¤ª


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 30, 2018)

Tashyboy said:



			For me it is â€œ how long is a piece of stringâ€ to both questions.
		
Click to expand...

No offence Taff but I was not asking you, I was asking Blue in Munich.
He appears to be well informed about leaving and the final outcome it will generate.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And even if people voted to stay in tbe EU they arenâ€™t going to want the UK to fail on its own - posting suggestions as such does nothing but add ill feeling and look like point scoring.
		
Click to expand...

I do believe some despise the idea of the UK leaving the EU so much they hope Brexit will be a disaster.   If you dont agree then thats your perogative,


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			Are you happy with the current uk system and the people running it?
If so then you will be happy witheir negotiations.. your advocating that these people I.e the current government should have more power ? Really ? This bunch are corrupt.
Your also opening us up to having really poor areas that wonâ€™t get financial support because the money will only go to areas that voted for the ruling government unlike the Erasmus projects .. oops did I mention something positive about the EU .. ðŸ¤ª
		
Click to expand...

I was asking someone else a question but as you seem to want to jump in I can only say that your post makes no sense to me, its nothing to do with what I posted.  Are you a little confused. You certainly are very confused who gives financial support or funds research projects in the UK. This may surprise you but the UK is a net EU contributor and as such gets no funding, we pay for ourselves.


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## Mudball (Dec 30, 2018)

Interesting story (not from BBC though) 

https://apple.news/AWsIL1G9nTzedXwoMh0mylw


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 30, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Interesting story (not from BBC though)

https://apple.news/AWsIL1G9nTzedXwoMh0mylw

Click to expand...

They have probably applied for all the new ferry jobs on offer from the company awarded the government contract who have no experience of running ferries.
This government is making Dads Army look like cutting edge management.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2018)

Mudball said:



			Interesting story (not from BBC though)

https://apple.news/AWsIL1G9nTzedXwoMh0mylw

Click to expand...

Is it. First they dont understand what ingredients go into a cornish pasty,  they are complaining about the supply of cheap foreign labour as if that's a benefit to cornish people and they seem to have missed the news that net immigration went up and the number of people available to work is higher than ever.


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## Stuart_C (Dec 30, 2018)

More desperate measures from the Tory government.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46714984

I wonder whose Tory MP/ Donor/Husband or Wife owns that company??


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## Tashyboy (Dec 30, 2018)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No offence Taff but I was not asking you, I was asking Blue in Munich.
He appears to be well informed about leaving and the final outcome it will generate.
		
Click to expand...

Taff ðŸ˜³ and you talk about well informed. 

Happy new year DFT. ðŸ‘ðŸ˜


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			More desperate measures from the Tory government.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46714984

I wonder whose Tory MP/ Donor/Husband or Wife owns that company??
		
Click to expand...

Is it, or is it a poorly researched article by the BBC?

What is Seabourne's global footprint, and just what do they do? How long have they been doing it, and what experience do they have of shipping within the EU and outside the EU?

What is their record on on charitable work? What community work do they do? What links do they have with the Tory party?


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## Stuart_C (Dec 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Is it, or is it a poorly researched article by the BBC?

What is Seabourne's global footprint, and just what do they do? *How long have they been doing it, and what experience do they have of shipping within the EU and outside the EU?*

What is their record on on charitable work? What community work do they do? _*What links do they have with the Tory party?*_

Click to expand...


The firm has never run a ferry service and doesnâ€™t own a vessel.

The government said it had awarded the contract in "the full knowledge that Seaborne is a new shipping provider".

"As with all contracts, we carefully vetted the company's commercial, technical and financial position in detail before making the award," it added.

As for links to the Tory party, nobody knows because the owners of said company havenâ€™t been disclosed.

It smells very very fishy. After this Tory government handed out contracts to failing businesses like Carillion, any contracts being handed out to new and unknown companies should rightly be dissected.


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2018)

Seaborne have been shipping within the EU and outside the EU for over 50 years. The size of their business, and the size of some of their projects/loads is impressive. Their experience of documentation/customs & dangerous goods is huge. Their expertise in this area will be paramount going forwards. They have offices around the world, including in the case of Brexit in France, The Netherlands, Germany. Their Rotterdam and Eindoven complexes aren't small.

The guy who set the company up was Clive Bourne, later to become a Sir. He received the Sir bit for the massive amount of charity work, and it is massive, he did.

They haven't ran a ferry fleet, always subbing out their bigger loads.

I've used them for dangerous loads, both within the EU and further afield to the 'Stans. Doesn't smell fishy to me. They will be a very small player in running ferries, and Ramsgate will be more of an overflow to reduce congestion around Dover. 

Its a non-story blown all out of proportion. Sounds more like whoever didn't win is stirring the.......


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 30, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			The firm has never run a ferry service and doesnâ€™t own a vessel.

The government said it had awarded the contract in "the full knowledge that Seaborne is a new shipping provider".

"As with all contracts, we carefully vetted the company's commercial, technical and financial position in detail before making the award," it added.

As for links to the Tory party, *nobody knows because the owners of said company havenâ€™t been disclosed.*

It smells very very fishy. After this Tory government handed out contracts to failing businesses like Carillion, any contracts being handed out to new and unknown companies should rightly be dissected.
		
Click to expand...

The directors are named on the Companies House website. I've no idea if any of them are "connected" or not.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10709921/officers


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			The firm has never run a ferry service and doesnâ€™t own a vessel.

The government said it had awarded the contract in "the full knowledge that Seaborne is a new shipping provider".

"As with all contracts, we carefully vetted the company's commercial, technical and financial position in detail before making the award," it added.

As for links to the Tory party, nobody knows because the owners of said company havenâ€™t been disclosed.

It smells very very fishy. After this Tory government handed out contracts to failing businesses like Carillion, any contracts being handed out to new and unknown companies should rightly be dissected.
		
Click to expand...

Carillion were not always a failing company, they were originally part of Tarmac. You seem rather paranoid regarding the Tories, have Labour administrations never given out contracts to organisations that have failed.


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## Stuart_C (Dec 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Seaborne have been shipping within the EU and outside the EU for over 50 years. The size of their business, and the size of some of their projects/loads is impressive. Their experience of documentation/customs & dangerous goods is huge. Their expertise in this area will be paramount going forwards. They have offices around the world, including in the case of Brexit in France, The Netherlands, Germany. Their Rotterdam and Eindoven complexes aren't small.

The guy who set the company up was Clive Bourne, later to become a Sir. He received the Sir bit for the massive amount of charity work, and it is massive, he did.

They haven't ran a ferry fleet, always subbing out their bigger loads.

I've used them for dangerous loads, both within the EU and further afield to the 'Stans. Doesn't smell fishy to me. They will be a very small player in running ferries, and Ramsgate will be more of an overflow to reduce congestion around Dover.

Its a non-story blown all out of proportion. *Sounds more like whoever didn't win is stirring the.......*

Click to expand...

Aye it certainly does now.


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## Stuart_C (Dec 30, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Carillion were not always a failing company, they were originally part of Tarmac. You seem rather paranoid regarding the Tories, have Labour administrations never given out contracts to organisations that have failed.
		
Click to expand...

Seeing as weâ€™ve currently got a brand new hospital thatâ€™s going to end up nearly 3 years behind schedule, half finished with foundation problems, sitting in our city whilst our main hospital is a dilapidated not fit for purpose unit, youâ€™re right I donâ€™t trust them.


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2018)

Stuart_C said:



			Seeing as weâ€™ve currently got a brand new hospital thatâ€™s going to end up nearly 3 years behind schedule, half finished with foundation problems, sitting in our city whilst our main hospital is a dilapidated not fit for purpose unit, youâ€™re right I donâ€™t trust them.
		
Click to expand...

Working with Carillion on that hospital was an absolute nightmare. Their project managers were a disgrace. I could tell you stories that would make your toes curl... and the cost to the Trust and the sub-contract companies.


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## Stuart_C (Dec 30, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Working with Carillion on that hospital was an absolute nightmare. Their project managers were a disgrace. I could tell you stories that would make your toes curl... and the cost to the Trust and the sub-contract companies.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing would surprise me with that lot. 

Theyâ€™ve sent many of small local businesses down. I know the electrical firm where owed over Â£150k and it sent them down. I heard another subbie was owed Â£2m. 

Going from 60 day payment terms to 120days overnight etc. 

Horrible gang of mercenaries 

It might not sound a lot of money in the grand scheme of things but 1000â€™s of people have been affected by their greed.

Donâ€™t forget Carillion werenâ€™t the 1st choice contractors for that job.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 30, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			I was asking someone else a question but as you seem to want to jump in I can only say that your post makes no sense to me, its nothing to do with what I posted.  Are you a little confused. You certainly are very confused who gives financial support or funds research projects in the UK. This may surprise you but the UK is a net EU contributor and as such gets no funding, we pay for ourselves.
		
Click to expand...

I am aware of where the money originated from, the point is it is dispersed in a manner not influenced by local politics....
So what are the actual benefits of leaving ... the facts please.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			Seaborne have been shipping within the EU and outside the EU for over 50 years. The size of their business, and the size of some of their projects/loads is impressive. Their experience of documentation/customs & dangerous goods is huge. Their expertise in this area will be paramount going forwards. They have offices around the world, including in the case of Brexit in France, The Netherlands, Germany. Their Rotterdam and Eindoven complexes aren't small.

The guy who set the company up was Clive Bourne, later to become a Sir. He received the Sir bit for the massive amount of charity work, and it is massive, he did.

They haven't ran a ferry fleet, always subbing out their bigger loads.

I've used them for dangerous loads, both within the EU and further afield to the 'Stans. Doesn't smell fishy to me. They will be a very small player in running ferries, and Ramsgate will be more of an overflow to reduce congestion around Dover.

Its a non-story blown all out of proportion. Sounds more like whoever didn't win is stirring the.......
		
Click to expand...

Poo ðŸ‘


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			My last word.
Google what are the benefits of leaving the EU.
2nd article states light bulbs, vacuums and blue passports among other assorted nonsense.
Like I said .
Good luck
		
Click to expand...

As I have discovered it is pointless asking the question.

The ordinary leave voter might ask

_'I am hearing that prices in the supermarkets might go up and choice could be reduced; that I will lose freedoms I currently have to live, travel and work anywhere across the EU; and that if things don't work out well at the ports or investment is hit then I might lose my job.  I understand the impact all of these things would have on me as an individual and my family if these risks came to pass  - and I understand that they could come about pretty soon after Brexit - some of them possibly immediately.  So tell me what is the upside?  Tell me the real, tangible and quantifiable benefits to me that I will notice when we leave the EU - benefits that I will see and feel either straight away or in the next months or year or so.  I might be willing to suffer a bit of a hit - though don't fancy losing my job - but please tell me the upside to the risks we are exposed to.  The upside that will tell me that the hit I take will be worthwhile'_

What he would likely get would be Brian (@Hobbit) explaining in some well-reasoned detail why the risks wouldn't transpire as _bad _as they might - not that our Leaver was told quite how bad they might be - just that some will occur and others might occur to some extent.  And so our Leave voter would say _'OK - so not as bad as they might be - but they still might happen?' _ And I suspect that Bri would most likely not disagree with these general concerns.

But many others would leap in with condemnations of those propagating unreasonable Project Fear forecasts - and would be telling our Leave voter about how he will reap the benefits of UK taking back control of our borders, money and laws - and that the UK would be regaining it's sovereignty - so he should not worry himself about what he is being told might happen - he needs to man up - believe in the UK - keep the faith.

Our Leave voter might well say _'brilliant - just what Moggie and Boris told me - but I don't understand what these things might mean to me day-to-day - what are the tangible and quantifiable benefits that I would feel in the short term - especially if things get expensive and I might lose my job?'_

And he would most likely be told that he must not listen to the fearmongers - that he knew what he was voting for - that benefts will come - though maybe 50yrs down the road

And that's I suspect is just how it would likely be for our Leave voter.  And he might shrug - or he might wonder whether or not he'd been sold a pup.

...and oh look what @SR posted subsequent to your post.

_OK, how about control of our Borders, Money, Laws, Trade, Fishing and destiny. I can guess your reply will be negative on all these as that seems to be your makeup. If you are concerned about your family then can you guarantee that a future in the EU will be the best way forward for them and if so then show the benefits and why becoming an independent country will be bad for them.  _

And with that I do not bother asking any further


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Carillion were not always a failing company, they were originally part of Tarmac. You seem rather paranoid regarding the Tories, have Labour administrations never given out contracts to organisations that have failed.
		
Click to expand...

And the Tories hung them out to dry.  Carillion need not have collapsed had the government taken the measures that Carillion had defined and set out in respect of bridging financing.  Not that there hadn't been mismanagement - but that they needn't have collapsed.  That from a friend close to the Carillion Board - and a friend that I believe and trust.


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## Hobbit (Dec 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I have discovered it is pointless asking the question.

The ordinary leave voter might ask

_'I am hearing that prices in the supermarkets might go up and choice could be reduced; that I will lose freedoms I currently have to live, travel and work anywhere across the EU; and that if things don't work out well at the ports or investment is hit then I might lose my job.  I understand the impact all of these things would have on me as an individual and my family if these risks came to pass  - and I understand that they could come about pretty soon after Brexit - some of them possibly immediately.  So tell me what is the upside?  Tell me the real, tangible and quantifiable benefits to me that I will notice when we leave the EU - benefits that I will see and feel either straight away or in the next months or year or so.  I might be willing to suffer a bit of a hit - though don't fancy losing my job - but please tell me the upside to the risks we are exposed to.  The upside that will tell me that the hit I take will be worthwhile'_

What he would likely get would be Brian (@Hobbit) explaining in some well-reasoned detail why the risks wouldn't transpire as _bad _as they might - not that our Leaver was told quite how bad they might be - just that some will occur and others might occur to some extent.  And so our Leave voter would say _'OK - so not as bad as they might be - but they still might happen?' _ And I suspect that Bri would most likely not disagree with these general concerns.


Click to expand...

The risks are there, and they are very real. In some cases they will see some businesses fall, and people will lose their jobs. And to those business owners and their employees there is very little that is a worse outcome for them. There will be a fall in tax revenue and an increase in the benefits bill. The fall of those businesses will also see the stock market take a hit, which means most people's pension pots will take a hit. Lets make no bones about it, the short term hit will see everyone suffer to a greater or lesser extent.

Will we see the levels of armageddon that some have prophesied? No. And that's were good government intervention is needed. Its a shame we don't have one. The Tories can't agree who should open the bottle, and the other 3 main political leaders all want different outcomes - you tell me which one is right, or can even be trusted.

What are the potential upsides? A reduction in tariffs for goods from abroad, and access to a greater market on more favourable terms. A reduction in Corporation Tax to stimulate growth, but that has to be balanced against a loss of tax revenue. A greater freedom to support businesses with subsidies.

Brexit is a political choice not, in the main, an economic choice. Yanis Varoufakis has done some great pieces on the EU, Brexit etc, and for the socialists amongst us he's worth at least a look. But on the political 'v' economic debate he put a piece together called "Is capitalism destroying democracy?" It goes very much to the heart of what is a difficult choice, and certainly one I've pondered. Should 200+ businessmen override the political wishes of 17.5 million voters? Democracy dictates that the process is followed but common sense clearly suggests that if lemmings vote to jump of a cliff its not wise to enact the result of the vote. The difference here is no one should believe the cliff is that high.

Is Brexit a wise choice? That depends on your starting point and your ambitions. Both sides of the argument are right, and both sides are wrong... all depends on your choice.


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## Hobbit (Dec 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And the Tories hung them out to dry.  Carillion need not have collapsed had the government taken the measures that Carillion had defined and set out in respect of bridging financing.  Not that there hadn't been mismanagement - but that they needn't have collapsed.  That from a friend close to the Carillion Board - and a friend that I believe and trust.
		
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The government is not the safety net for businesses that can't manage themselves properly. Carillion's board need flogging. They are to blame and no one else.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 31, 2018)

harpo_72 said:



			I am aware of where the money originated from, the point is it is dispersed in a manner not influenced by local politics....
So what are the actual benefits of leaving ... the facts please.
		
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You dont seem to understand much about EU grants. The EU dont send a man around the town hall with a fat brown envelope stuffed with spondulas saying 'Bonjour Mon amis, ere is some money we would like you to av.  Our local authorities have to apply for it and put up around 50% of the funding themselves.  You really do say some strange things, you would prefer the gigantic EU political machine to control our own money but dont want local politics involved in how we wish to spend it.  Unbelievable!
I have explained the reasons I wish us to leave the EU and what is a benefit in my estimation may well be a liability in yours but the difference between us is I can uderstand this.   No matter how many times your questions are answered you just ask them again, its very boring now.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I have discovered it is pointless asking the question.

The ordinary leave voter might ask

_'I am hearing that prices in the supermarkets might go up and choice could be reduced; that I will lose freedoms I currently have to live, travel and work anywhere across the EU; and that if things don't work out well at the ports or investment is hit then I might lose my job.  I understand the impact all of these things would have on me as an individual and my family if these risks came to pass  - and I understand that they could come about pretty soon after Brexit - some of them possibly immediately.  So tell me what is the upside?  Tell me the real, tangible and quantifiable benefits to me that I will notice when we leave the EU - benefits that I will see and feel either straight away or in the next months or year or so.  I might be willing to suffer a bit of a hit - though don't fancy losing my job - but please tell me the upside to the risks we are exposed to.  The upside that will tell me that the hit I take will be worthwhile'_

What he would likely get would be Brian (@Hobbit) explaining in some well-reasoned detail why the risks wouldn't transpire as _bad _as they might - not that our Leaver was told quite how bad they might be - just that some will occur and others might occur to some extent.  And so our Leave voter would say _'OK - so not as bad as they might be - but they still might happen?' _ And I suspect that Bri would most likely not disagree with these general concerns.

But many others would leap in with condemnations of those propagating unreasonable Project Fear forecasts - and would be telling our Leave voter about how he will reap the benefits of UK taking back control of our borders, money and laws - and that the UK would be regaining it's sovereignty - so he should not worry himself about what he is being told might happen - he needs to man up - believe in the UK - keep the faith.

Our Leave voter might well say _'brilliant - just what Moggie and Boris told me - but I don't understand what these things might mean to me day-to-day - what are the tangible and quantifiable benefits that I would feel in the short term - especially if things get expensive and I might lose my job?'_

And he would most likely be told that he must not listen to the fearmongers - that he knew what he was voting for - that benefts will come - though maybe 50yrs down the road

And that's I suspect is just how it would likely be for our Leave voter.  And he might shrug - or he might wonder whether or not he'd been sold a pup.

...and oh look what @SR posted subsequent to your post.

_OK, how about control of our Borders, Money, Laws, Trade, Fishing and destiny. I can guess your reply will be negative on all these as that seems to be your makeup. If you are concerned about your family then can you guarantee that a future in the EU will be the best way forward for them and if so then show the benefits and why becoming an independent country will be bad for them.  _

And with that I do not bother asking any further
		
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Not much point in replying to that diatribe, you make it clear that you know what we want better than we do. Many people in history thought that and it didn't turn out well for them.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And the Tories hung them out to dry.  Carillion need not have collapsed had the government taken the measures that Carillion had defined and set out in respect of bridging financing.  Not that there hadn't been mismanagement - but that they needn't have collapsed.  That from a friend close to the Carillion Board - and a friend that I believe and trust.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And the Tories hung them out to dry.  Carillion need not have collapsed had the government taken the measures that Carillion had defined and set out in respect of bridging financing.  Not that there hadn't been mismanagement - but that they needn't have collapsed.  That from a friend close to the Carillion Board - and a friend that I believe and trust.
		
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Er it is not the first time they have done it. Does it not set a precedent if they were to save a poorly managed company


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2018)

Hobbit said:



			The risks are there, and they are very real. In some cases they will see some businesses fall, and people will lose their jobs. And to those business owners and their employees there is very little that is a worse outcome for them. There will be a fall in tax revenue and an increase in the benefits bill. The fall of those businesses will also see the stock market take a hit, which means most people's pension pots will take a hit. Lets make no bones about it, the short term hit will see everyone suffer to a greater or lesser extent.

Will we see the levels of armageddon that some have prophesied? No. And that's were good government intervention is needed. Its a shame we don't have one. The Tories can't agree who should open the bottle, and the other 3 main political leaders all want different outcomes - you tell me which one is right, or can even be trusted.

What are the potential upsides? A reduction in tariffs for goods from abroad, and access to a greater market on more favourable terms. A reduction in Corporation Tax to stimulate growth, but that has to be balanced against a loss of tax revenue. A greater freedom to support businesses with subsidies.

Brexit is a political choice not, in the main, an economic choice. Yanis Varoufakis has done some great pieces on the EU, Brexit etc, and for the socialists amongst us he's worth at least a look. But on the political 'v' economic debate he put a piece together called "Is capitalism destroying democracy?" It goes very much to the heart of what is a difficult choice, and certainly one I've pondered. Should 200+ businessmen override the political wishes of 17.5 million voters? Democracy dictates that the process is followed but common sense clearly suggests that if lemmings vote to jump of a cliff its not wise to enact the result of the vote. The difference here is no one should believe the cliff is that high.

Is Brexit a wise choice? That depends on your starting point and your ambitions. Both sides of the argument are right, and both sides are wrong... all depends on your choice.
		
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Thanks Bri - I knew I could rely on you for a reply just as I had expected (though saying I can predict the future is a dangerous thing  ).

But as much as you have identified some benefits - the benefit you have identified that the individual might experience in the short term - lower prices through lower tariffs on some imported goods - are not that much on their own as the upside against the possible downside - especially if that downside is loss of job and slashed disposable income.  I think my leaver deserves more on the upside - given he is unlikely to be a fisherman.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			Not much point in replying to that diatribe, you make it clear that you know what we want better than we do. Many people in history thought that and it didn't turn out well for them.
		
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QED - I didn't expect you to.  Though the disdainful and contemptuous dismal was expected and duly provided.

Immediate and tangible benefits for Joe Bloggs when considering the balance of pros and cons of leaving now that the risks and potential impacts are much better understood?  Not a question worth answering it seems - @Hobbit at least suggested one upside through reduced tariffs on imports (though even that would - under WTO rules - expose our indigenous manufacturing and farming industries to levels of competition that could put them out of business).

So was my question too simple to merit an answer - or too difficult for there to be a convincing answer?  Does the Leave voter not deserve an answer?


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## bladeplayer (Dec 31, 2018)

I do drop in and out of this thread but admit I haven't read all the  replys. 

I read with interest re the new ferry company with no boats that seemingly has passed due diligence (sp) for some funding out of curiosity does this worry any of ye . ..?how does this happen ? Old pals act ? If this is a sign of the new world type leadership to take you forward ? Do u trust them .. Can u trust the current politicians u have for anything ?

Again all I hear is u will be fine , are the deals ye hope for there's the business u will need there .. Actually there ready to go . Not pie in  the sky bluff u hear from the clowns (all parties). Can u trust them any of them ?

Personally I don't care if ye stay or go tbh, our little country is so corrupt at the top whether we are done by Irish politicians or Europeans it won't mater to us in the slightest .


Just curious as to yer thoughts, on facts not bluff .. Not what ye think but what ye are sure of .

Thanks


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 31, 2018)

bladeplayer said:



			I do drop in and out of this thread but admit I haven't read all the  replys.

*I read with interest re the new ferry company with no boats that seemingly has passed due diligence (sp) for some funding out of curiosity does this worry any of ye . ..?*how does this happen ? Old pals act ? If this is a sign of the new world type leadership to take you forward ? Do u trust them .. Can u trust the current politicians u have for anything ?

Again all I hear is u will be fine , are the deals ye hope for there's the business u will need there .. Actually there ready to go . Not pie in  the sky bluff u hear from the clowns (all parties). Can u trust them any of them ?

Personally I don't care if ye stay or go tbh, our little country is so corrupt at the top whether we are done by Irish politicians or Europeans it won't mater to us in the slightest .


Just curious as to yer thoughts, on facts not bluff .. Not what ye think but what ye are sure of .

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Hobbit's post #3,312 should ease your mind a little re the ferries.

As to trusting politicians, there's very little that would make me trust this current bunch.


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## Dando (Dec 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			QED - I didn't expect you to.  Though the disdainful and contemptuous dismal was expected and duly provided.

Immediate and tangible benefits for Joe Bloggs when considering the balance of pros and cons of leaving now that the risks and potential impacts are much better understood?  Not a question worth answering it seems - @Hobbit at least suggested one upside through reduced tariffs on imports (though even that would - under WTO rules - expose our indigenous manufacturing and farming industries to levels of competition that could put them out of business).

So was my question too simple to merit an answer - or too difficult for there to be a convincing answer?  Does the Leave voter not deserve an answer?
		
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Thought you were out of this thread? 
Was that a lie or an exaggeration?


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## Hobbit (Dec 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks Bri - I knew I could rely on you for a reply just as I had expected (though saying I can predict the future is a dangerous thing  ).

But as much as you have identified some benefits - the benefit you have identified that the individual might experience in the short term - lower prices through lower tariffs on some imported goods - are not that much on their own as the upside against the possible downside - especially if that downside is loss of job and slashed disposable income.  I think my leaver deserves more on the upside - given he is unlikely to be a fisherman.
		
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Hugh, my answer doesn't even skim the surface. And far better people than I will come up with far better answers yet still miss by a mile.

The one thing my answer doesn't touch on is the possible longevity of the EU. For that you need to look at both the economics of losing a huge chunk of revenue and geopolitical issues within the EU. Financially the EU is a busted flush. The loss of a huge contributor will do a lot of damage. The end of quantitive easing will see a further, added strain on the budget. And then there's the new budget plus added new commitments. Financially the EU is in a perilous state, and I'd hate to be in that 'house' when the walls come tumbling down.

Politically the EU is at a very difficult crossroads. Its own biannual survey published this week sees them having below 50% popularity in almost every country in the EU. Some of the decisions being made at Commission level could come home to bite them on the bum, e.g. refusing Italy's budget but not France's. A central budget/finance chancellor, with individual countries having no say. The appointment of Juncker's hitman/#2 under very undemocratic circumstances. The Eastern European countries openly rebelling against the EU over immigration.

The EU as a trading concept, yes 100% yes. But the current path, following Juncker's political dream, no way is it a concept I'd endorse. Nor do I think its sustainable without some major changes. Northern Europe is very different politically than Southern Europe, and Eastern Europe is different again. A one shoe fits all just doesn't work.


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## drdel (Dec 31, 2018)

bladeplayer said:



			I do drop in and out of this thread but admit I haven't read all the  replys.

I read with interest re the new ferry company with no boats that seemingly has passed due diligence (sp) for some funding out of curiosity does this worry any of ye . ..?how does this happen ? Old pals act ? If this is a sign of the new world type leadership to take you forward ? Do u trust them .. Can u trust the current politicians u have for anything ?

Again all I hear is u will be fine , are the deals ye hope for there's the business u will need there .. Actually there ready to go . Not pie in  the sky bluff u hear from the clowns (all parties). Can u trust them any of them ?

Personally I don't care if ye stay or go tbh, our little country is so corrupt at the top whether we are done by Irish politicians or Europeans it won't mater to us in the slightest .


Just curious as to yer thoughts, on facts not bluff .. Not what ye think but what ye are sure of .

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

*Hot tip* - don't tale newspaper/media reports as literal.

If you're really are interested  you can research the company - its a bit more substantial than the rumours.  Most marine logistical assets are hire/leased.


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## bladeplayer (Dec 31, 2018)

Blue in Munich said:



			Hobbit's post #3,312 should ease your mind a little re the ferries.

As to trusting politicians, there's very little that would make me trust this current bunch.
		
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Thanks il have a look , as I sai I haven't read all replys , 
I don't have the answers just curious questions


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## bladeplayer (Dec 31, 2018)

drdel said:



*Hot tip* - don't tale newspaper/media reports as literal.

If you're really are interested  you can research the company - its a bit more substantial than the rumours.  Most marine logistical assets are hire/leased.
		
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Old enough to know by now to believe half what u see and less of what u hear , that's why I'm asking on here coz I'd believe ye guys more than papers or news but need definite comment not I heard or I think


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And the Tories hung them out to dry.  Carillion need not have collapsed had the government taken the measures that Carillion had defined and set out in respect of bridging financing.  Not that there hadn't been mismanagement - but that they needn't have collapsed.  That from a friend close to the Carillion Board - and a friend that I believe and trust.
		
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SR. This is old news but Carillon through its negligence sent thousands of jobs from other companies who they never paid to the dole queue. They made X number of companies go bust. Yet my tax payers money should of stopped Carilion going under coz your trusted mate says so. Would like to think my money went to the companies that did nowt wrong.


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## drdel (Dec 31, 2018)

bladeplayer said:



			Old enough to know by now to believe half what u see and less of what u hear , that's why I'm asking on here coz I'd believe ye guys more than papers or news but need definite comment not I heard or I think
		
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Point taken. However there are good 'trade' journals, port reports etc with factual reports that will give you better info than an internet forum


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## SocketRocket (Dec 31, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			QED - I didn't expect you to.  Though the disdainful and contemptuous dismal was expected and duly provided.

Immediate and tangible benefits for Joe Bloggs when considering the balance of pros and cons of leaving now that the risks and potential impacts are much better understood?  Not a question worth answering it seems - @Hobbit at least suggested one upside through reduced tariffs on imports (though even that would - under WTO rules - expose our indigenous manufacturing and farming industries to levels of competition that could put them out of business).

So was my question too simple to merit an answer - or too difficult for there to be a convincing answer?  Does the Leave voter not deserve an answer?
		
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Neither, it was too onerous and Hackney. We've been through this too many times already and another term of it is too nauseating to contemplate.


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## Mudball (Dec 31, 2018)

From Twitter.. so must be true (thatâ€™s the joke bit) but still does not filll anyone with confidence..

Seabourne Freight shares the same registered Address, 59 Mansell Street, as the Maritime Law firm Campbell Johnson Clark whose Director is called Mark Bamford, I did two minutes of research, Antony Bamford of JCB is a huge Tory party donor, his brother is called Mark...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 31, 2018)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont seem to understand much about EU grants. The EU dont send a man around the town hall with a fat brown envelope stuffed with spondulas saying 'Bonjour Mon amis, ere is some money we would like you to av.  Our local authorities have to apply for it and put up around 50% of the funding themselves.  You really do say some strange things, you would prefer the gigantic EU political machine to control our own money but dont want local politics involved in how we wish to spend it.  Unbelievable!
I have explained the reasons I wish us to leave the EU and what is a benefit in my estimation may well be a liability in yours but the difference between us is I can uderstand this.   No matter how many times your questions are answered you just ask them again, its very boring now.
		
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Better post them again because I have only read you belittling others .. and yes I know how the EU hands out their monies thank you very much. I donâ€™t really think you have a clue yourself ðŸ¥³


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 1, 2019)

Mudball said:



			From Twitter.. so must be true (thatâ€™s the joke bit) but still does not filll anyone with confidence..

Seabourne Freight shares the same registered Address, 59 Mansell Street, as the Maritime Law firm Campbell Johnson Clark whose Director is called Mark Bamford, I did two minutes of research, Antony Bamford of JCB is a huge Tory party donor, his brother is called Mark...
		
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Yes my daughter pointed that out a couple of days ago.
Stinks to high heaven.
Mind you she also pointed out that they had to get the company up and running before any government money is paid out.
Give you two guesses how that pans out. I believe the harbour has not been dredged for over 5 years.

The other two foreign ferry companies involved in the deal appear to have been paid up front.
Nice bit of taking back control by a strong and stable government


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 1, 2019)

Could be posted in many threads but I'll stick it in here, interestingly short odds on a few things


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080024092089241600


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## Tashyboy (Jan 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Could be posted in many threads but I'll stick it in here, interestingly short odds on a few things


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080024092089241600

Click to expand...

1/10000 that Diane Abbot said happy easter at least 10 times last night. ðŸ˜ðŸ‘


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 1, 2019)

Don't worry Uncle Albert is in charge of the ferries and Del and Rodney the finances 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1079502359833862145


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## SocketRocket (Jan 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Better post them again because I have only read you belittling others .. and yes I know how the EU hands out their monies thank you very much. I donâ€™t really think you have a clue yourself ðŸ¥³
		
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looks like you had a cracking new years party ðŸŽ‰ 
I could have an intellectual debate with you but it's unfair against an unarmed man.

Happy New Year


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## drdel (Jan 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Could be posted in many threads but I'll stick it in here, interestingly short odds on a few things


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080024092089241600

Click to expand...

Betting odds aren't forecasts,  just a reflection of the views of those who want to bet on daft stuff to the advantage of the bookies.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			Betting odds aren't forecasts,  just a reflection of the views of those who want to bet on daft stuff to the advantage of the bookies.
		
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Not sure what your point is as no one claimed they were any kind of in depth forecasting.  I thought odds represented the bookies view of the probability of something happening whilst also taking into account the fact that they need to make a profit.  So for example in this case there's a higher probability of a new referendum than there is us leaving with no deal according to the bookies. Or there's a higher probability of Corbyn being replaced than becoming PM. If anyone thinks this is not going to happen then feel free to pile in and make a killing. But I'm sure there's a bookie on here who knows this stuff better than I do.


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## drdel (Jan 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not sure what your point is as no one claimed they were any kind of in depth forecasting.  I thought odds represented the bookies view of the probability of something happening whilst also taking into account the fact that they need to make a profit.  So for example in this case there's a higher probability of a new referendum than there is us leaving with no deal according to the bookies. Or there's a higher probability of Corbyn being replaced than becoming PM. If anyone thinks this is not going to happen then feel free to pile in and make a killing. But I'm sure there's a bookie on here who knows this stuff better than I do.
		
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So you are using it as a prediction to support your views.  

It just means a load of people have bet and the odds have moved accordingly, nothing more.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			So you are using it as a prediction to support your views.

It just means a load of people have bet and the odds have moved accordingly, nothing more.
		
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So you are saying that the odds a bookie sets have nothing to do with what the bookies think is the probability of it happening but are totally driven by the number of people that bet on that outcome?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So you are saying that the odds a bookie sets have nothing to do with what the bookies think is the probability of it happening but are totally driven by the number of people that bet on that outcome?
		
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Basically yes.

That is what is meant by "making a book".


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## harpo_72 (Jan 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			looks like you had a cracking new years party ðŸŽ‰
I could have an intellectual debate with you but it's unfair against an unarmed man.

Happy New Year
		
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There you go again ... no answer but only an insult


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## robinthehood (Jan 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			There you go again ... no answer but only an insult
		
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Mate give it up . I tried but that's clearly all he has.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Mate give it up . I tried but that's clearly all he has.
		
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Your right, itâ€™s all they only have.. quoting WTO incorrectly, misunderstanding the economy contributors, manufacturing of goods in this country ... they are all clueless. But sadly all of these are dismissed as scaremongering and never dealt with a reasonable fact based argument.


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## Hobbit (Jan 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Mate give it up . I tried but that's clearly all he has.
		
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Really? 

Post #3279.

When you were asked to substantiate your pronouncements you took your bat and ball home. Its all there just before and around post #3279.

At least Harpo has put together some very good arguments. You've given virtually nothing of any substance to the debate, preferring soundbites without substance. But hey, how about another "I'm out of here."


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## Fade and Die (Jan 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Your right, itâ€™s all they only have.. quoting WTO incorrectly, misunderstanding the economy contributors, manufacturing of goods in this country ... they are all clueless. But sadly all of these are dismissed as scaremongering and never dealt with a reasonable fact based argument.
		
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Classic Dunning-Kruger effect right their ðŸ‘†ðŸ¤¦ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸


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## Hobbit (Jan 1, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Classic Dunning-Kruger effect right their ðŸ‘†ðŸ¤¦ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸
		
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 So you think they are the really bright ones, underestimating their own intelligence? If you're gonna throw deep and meaningful assessments in you'll have to qualify them.

Don't forget, Dunning and Kruger tested the whole class...


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## harpo_72 (Jan 1, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Classic Dunning-Kruger effect right their ðŸ‘†ðŸ¤¦ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸
		
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Nice insult ... but your still incapable of an argument.. and I donâ€™t need to make a quote using some jumped up wind bags .. quote a physicist and I might be impressed. ðŸ¤£


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## Fade and Die (Jan 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



 So *you think they are the really bright ones, underestimating their own intelligence? *If you're gonna throw deep and meaningful assessments in you'll have to qualify them.

Don't forget, Dunning and Kruger tested the whole class...
		
Click to expand...


No I think the other group. ðŸ˜


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## Fade and Die (Jan 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Nice insult ... but your still incapable of an argument.. and I donâ€™t need to make a quote using some jumped up wind bags .. quote a physicist and I might be impressed. ðŸ¤£
		
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I freely admit Iâ€™m not great at making lucid/concise arguments but If you have read Hobbits and Socket Rockets posts on this thread and still donâ€™t think there is a counter argument to your point then there really is no helping you.


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## robinthehood (Jan 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Really? 

Post #3279.

When you were asked to substantiate your pronouncements you took your bat and ball home. Its all there just before and around post #3279.

At least Harpo has put together some very good arguments. You've given virtually nothing of any substance to the debate, preferring soundbites without substance. But hey, how about another "I'm out of here."
		
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I have asked what are the benefits of leaving the EU.  Not once has anyone responded with anything other than  an insult.  All you've done is  re hash one of my posts and tried to use those very words as your own.


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## Hobbit (Jan 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I have asked what are the benefits of leaving the EU.  Not once has anyone responded with anything other than  an insult.  All you've done is  re hash one of my posts and tried to use those very words as your own.
		
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If you look around that post you will clearly see I asked you to substantiate your claims with more than soundbites. The only thing you offered around that time was the throwaway comment on light bulbs, vacuum cleaners and blue passports. The article that Colchester found, in which they were quoted, had a lot more than the 3 things you posted, but including those would have weakened your argument.

There's only one person guilty of avoidance here, and its you. The evidence is all around that post I quoted.

But if you want to look elsewhere in the thread there's plenty of posts with the possible benefits quoted, but finding them wouldn't suit your argument would it. Have a look at post #3323. and then go to the EU market access database website and acquaint yourself with the level of tariffs that stop goods from elsewhere being competitive in the EU. Debate them, argue constructively, backed by evidence. Don't do a Farage or a George Osbourne with one-liners that have more holes than a fishing net.

And I have no intention of insulting you, only highlighting your lack of putting anything out there of substance. I voted Remain, and would do so again. I despaired at George Osbourne's and David Cameron's strategy and tactics. Soundbite politics isn't what we need, and it certainly won't repair the divisiveness that's all around the argument. Incontrovertible facts and evidence is the only way to win people over. Treating them like idiots, with throwaway one liners just perpetuates the bile.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I have asked what are the benefits of leaving the EU.  Not once has anyone responded with anything other than  an insult.  All you've done is  re hash one of my posts and tried to use those very words as your own.
		
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The question has been answered in great detail, you however seem unable to absorb the data and keep reiterating the question.  It becomes  very difficult not to question your ability to comprehend information and partake in reasoned debate.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Nice insult ... but your still incapable of an argument.. and I donâ€™t need to make a quote using some jumped up wind bags .. quote a physicist and I might be impressed. ðŸ¤£
		
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Oh the irony ðŸ˜‚  You keep accusing others of posting lnsults when your posts are full of them.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I have asked what are the benefits of leaving the EU.  Not once has anyone responded with anything other than  an insult.  All you've done is  re hash one of my posts and tried to use those very words as your own.
		
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It's a bit hypocritical of you to complain about people not answering your questions when in post #3290 I responded asking you what you saw as the benefits of remaining in the EU. There was no insult and nothing more to my post than that but you chose to ignore that question. It's entirely possible that my question got lost in the noise surrounding you spitting your dummy and flouncing out of the thread so I'll ask again......

What are the benefits of remaining in the EU?

And like Hobbit I was in favour of Remain and if we went back to June 2016 I would still be wanting to Remain.


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## Sweep (Jan 1, 2019)

3,362 replies to this thread and over 10,000 on the previous thread and not one benefit for leaving the EU has been posted? 
I think someone is mistaken.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 1, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I freely admit Iâ€™m not great at making lucid/concise arguments but If you have read Hobbits and Socket Rockets posts on this thread and still donâ€™t think there is a counter argument to your point then there really is no helping you.
		
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You have never felt like digging deeper?


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## harpo_72 (Jan 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's a bit hypocritical of you to complain about people not answering your questions when in post #3290 I responded asking you what you saw as the benefits of remaining in the EU. There was no insult and nothing more to my post than that but you chose to ignore that question. It's entirely possible that my question got lost in the noise surrounding you spitting your dummy and flouncing out of the thread so I'll ask again......

What are the benefits of remaining in the EU?

And like Hobbit I was in favour of Remain and if we went back to June 2016 I would still be wanting to Remain.
		
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You replied with a question.. the EU remain is the current status .. there is the answer but the question really is what does leave do?


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You replied with a question.. the EU remain is the current status .. there is the answer but the question really is what does leave do?
		
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I wanted to Remain, I'm not the right person to try to give the benefits of leaving? I'm not so pompous or so arrogant that I think I know what Leave voters thought or wanted, so how am I meant to answer the question? But as you've raised the issue, if "the EU remain is the current status" what do you think are the benefits of that?


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## harpo_72 (Jan 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wanted to Remain, I'm not the right person to try to give the benefits of leaving? I'm not so pompous or so arrogant that I think I know what Leave voters thought or wanted, so how am I meant to answer the question? But as you've raised the issue, if "the EU remain is the current status" what do you think are the benefits of that?
		
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Lifeâ€™s good .. stuff happens, things are available and affordable. There is your answer.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Lifeâ€™s good .. stuff happens, things are available and affordable. There is your answer.
		
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For you personally or for the general population? And would you accept that as an answer from a Leaver? If they had answered your question on the benefits of leaving the EU with "life will be good......stuff will happen, things will be available and affordable" would you have been happy with that as an answer?


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## Pants (Jan 1, 2019)

Just a thought.  How about those with their crystal balls who have spent endless hours telling us of the gloom and doom that will befall us when we leave the EU, using those same balls to tell us what the mid to long term effects of staying in the EU would bring.  

Things like future contributions, rebates, joining the Euro, federal state, other countries wanting to leave, budget agreements, European armed force, probable collapse of the experiment, etc, etc.

Come on.  If you really can tell us *The Facts* and back them up, some leavers might be persuaded to change their minds. Until then, crystal ball gazing and opinions have no real sway (imho obviously).


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## robinthehood (Jan 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The question has been answered in great detail, you however seem unable to absorb the data and keep reiterating the question.  It becomes  very difficult not to question your ability to comprehend information and partake in reasoned debate.
		
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Rinse and repeat as ever.


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## IanM (Jan 1, 2019)

Pants said:



			If you really can tell us *The Facts* and back them up, some leavers might be persuaded to change their minds. Until then, crystal ball gazing and opinions have no real sway (imho obviously).
		
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Forget speculation from either side of the economic implications of in or out...weâ€™ve got over 3000 posts of that....Given the absolute clarity of recent speeches by EU Leadership on the route the EU will be taking, maybe some comment by the Remainers on here is due, about why we need to abandon our sovereignty in favour of being in a fully Federal Europe.


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## Slime (Jan 1, 2019)

This is like going back to school.
Sometimes I'm in the classroom, sometimes I'm in the playground.
Magnificent performance everyone.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			For you personally or for the general population? And would you accept that as an answer from a Leaver? If they had answered your question on the benefits of leaving the EU with "life will be good......stuff will happen, things will be available and affordable" would you have been happy with that as an answer?
		
Click to expand...

No because they need to expand on the changes and how it will affect affordability of every day items and will the shops offer us a diverse selection we have ... the answer is high level because we know our situation, but we can go deeper and that has been already done. We have talked about the manufacture of components in other states and them then being transported to the UK for assembly, we have mentioned open border policies freedom for transportation etc... if you missed that then you have your blinkers on. The leavers have not even decided what they want as the final outcome.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 2, 2019)

I have followed this thread for an age, and I don't understand how the blind trolls still keep getting fed.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No because they need to expand on the changes and how it will affect affordability of every day items and will the shops offer us a diverse selection we have ... the answer is high level because we know our situation, but we can go deeper and that has been already done. We have talked about the manufacture of components in other states and them then being transported to the UK for assembly, we have mentioned open border policies freedom for transportation etc... if you missed that then you have your blinkers on. The leavers have not even decided what they want as the final outcome.
		
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Guessing you weren't paying attention when it was posted that there are already several manufacturers using components supplied from outside the EU for their manufacturing processes without issue... Should we leave if there is any disruption in supply to components from within the EU then it will only be because Brussels decree it to teach us a lesson...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No because they need to expand on the changes and how it will affect affordability of every day items and will the shops offer us a diverse selection we have ... the answer is high level because we know our situation, but we can go deeper and that has been already done. We have talked about the manufacture of components in other states and them then being transported to the UK for assembly, we have mentioned open border policies freedom for transportation etc... if you missed that then you have your blinkers on. The leavers have not even decided what they want as the final outcome.
		
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Blinkers!  thats rich comng from you.  Your poor understanding of how components are manufactured and used was exposed as naive and ignorant.  You are also basing everything on the supposition that we will not be capable of organising systems to create frictionless customs for trusted suppliers or have any kind of  free trade with the EU.    Its been explained to you many times that there would be some initial bumps in the road but please drop this armageddon rubbish.


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## Foxholer (Jan 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Have you got any evidence of this? I can find an article, dated Nov 18th, in The Guardian which states a lobby group have compiled a report that this will happen. Strange that the lobby group are pro-Remain. And amongst all the articles I looked at I find that Goldman Sachs has confirmed a Â£1.2bn investment in the UK.

Instead of your usual soundbites why not actually post up some links in support of your case. You decry others for not providing any evidence yet all we see from you is hot air. Back it up, preferably with something more than more soundbites of what might happen. How about xxxx bank announces it is moving? Not might move but is moving in its entirety.
....
		
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Er... Do these qualify? Purely from a 'let's see the facts' POV btw. And the outward numbers dwarf GS's 'inward', though welcome, investment!

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...ssets-transferred-due-to-brexit-idUKKCN1NY0VV

https://citywire.co.uk/funds-inside...d-groups-are-sending-billions-abroad/a1124217
https://citywire.co.uk/funds-inside...rexit-transfer/a1120218?section=funds-insider
https://citywire.co.uk/funds-inside...sets-out-of-uk/a1118048?section=funds-insider


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## drdel (Jan 2, 2019)

Sweep said:



			3,362 replies to this thread and over 10,000 on the previous thread and not one benefit for leaving the EU has been posted?
I think someone is mistaken.
		
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I'd respectfully suggest your wrong. In numerous posts I have given reasons why I consider the UK would be better off outside of the EU.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 2, 2019)

As I did not get a responce from the Brexit supporting poster regarding my question about his comment that the UK will be hit financially to start with before we started gaining any benefit . I shall open the question to other Brexit supporters.

I asked how hard will we be hit and how soon will it be before we see benefit.

Proper financial and time estimates required non of that willy nilly, wooly bully platitudes and insults that we normally get please. Something that would make me realise that Brexit will not be all that bad.

If we do not know the answer to those questions then we are not only driving off the cliff but putting ear defenders and a blindfold on first.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As I did not get a responce from the Brexit supporting poster regarding my question about his comment that the UK will be hit financially to start with before we started gaining any benefit . I shall open the question to other Brexit supporters.

I asked how hard will we be hit and how soon will it be before we see benefit.

Proper financial and time estimates required non of that willy nilly, wooly bully platitudes and insults that we normally get please. Something that would make me realise that Brexit will not be all that bad.

If we do not know the answer to those questions then we are not only driving off the cliff but putting ear defenders and a blindfold on first.
		
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I'm a remainer but that question can not be answered by either side. Treasury forecasts, Bank of England forecasts, IMF forecasts, most forecasts are baloney and have been showed to be baloney for a number of years. Remainers can not accurately forecast growth within the EU for the next two years any more than Leavers can answer what you have asked. Both sides can guess but guessing is about all they can do.

I asked how hard will we be hit and how soon will it be before we see benefit.

That question can be asked in a general way, definitely the second part of it, but no more.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As I did not get a responce from the Brexit supporting poster regarding my question about his comment that the UK will be hit financially to start with before we started gaining any benefit . I shall open the question to other Brexit supporters.

I asked how hard will we be hit and how soon will it be before we see benefit.

Proper financial and time estimates required non of that willy nilly, wooly bully platitudes and insults that we normally get please. Something that would makecplq me realise that Brexit will not be all that bad.

If we do not know the answer to those questions then we are not only driving off the cliff but putting ear defenders and a blindfold on first.
		
Click to expand...

Here's an answer for you.  The people's vote decided we will leave the EU, so leave we must. The consequences of that decision will unfold as we move into this new arrangement which is uncertain at this time. Asking someone to give an explicit report on the exact outcomes is just silly, absolutely no one can do that, just as no one can precisely forecast how the finances of the EU will unfold over the next N years. The decision to leave the EU was not purely a financial one so you need to educate yourself on this fact, just like the vote on Scottish independence was not purely financial.
A dose of realism is needed by many who would rather waste their energies trying to undo the democratic decision.


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## drdel (Jan 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As I did not get a responce from the Brexit supporting poster regarding my question about his comment that the UK will be hit financially to start with before we started gaining any benefit . I shall open the question to other Brexit supporters.

I asked how hard will we be hit and how soon will it be before we see benefit.

Proper financial and time estimates required non of that willy nilly, wooly bully platitudes and insults that we normally get please. Something that would make me realise that Brexit will not be all that bad.

If we do not know the answer to those questions then we are not only driving off the cliff but putting ear defenders and a blindfold on first.
		
Click to expand...

You know full well that you can't get a normally lay person to have any data to quantify an analysis to answer the questions - it just appears to be arguing for the sake of it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			You know full well that you can't get a normally lay person to have any data to quantify an analysis to answer the questions - it just appears to be arguing for the sake of it.
		
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If that is the case can we then ask Brexiteers to stop saying that things are going to be just dandy once we get through the initial financial hit.
I think we all tend to agree that the UK will suffer a financial when we leave the EU.


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think we all tend to agree that the UK will suffer a financial when we leave the EU.
		
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As we will if we stay in due to a massive hike in the budget and the cost to the few.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If that is the case can we then ask Brexiteers to stop saying that things are going to be just dandy once we get through the initial financial hit.
I think we all tend to agree that the UK will suffer a financial when we leave the EU.
		
Click to expand...

So you know something we dont then. All any of us are suggesting is what we think will happen but there are no gurantees either way. Why are you regurgitating the same old twaddle.  Are you incapable of taking in what people are saying to you or are you just Trolling as usual.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			As we will if we stay in due to a massive hike in the budget and the cost to the few.
		
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Nothing to do with EU this is the governmentâ€™s fiscal policy, you will vote them in and then they will raise the taxes .. thatâ€™s Tory policy ...


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## ger147 (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Nothing to do with EU this is the governmentâ€™s fiscal policy, you will vote them in and then they will raise the taxes .. thatâ€™s Tory policy ...
		
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I think he meant an increase to the EU budget not the UK budget...


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## harpo_72 (Jan 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Here's an answer for you.  The people's vote decided we will leave the EU, so leave we must. The consequences of that decision will unfold as we move into this new arrangement which is uncertain at this time. Asking someone to give an explicit report on the exact outcomes is just silly, absolutely no one can do that, just as no one can precisely forecast how the finances of the EU will unfold over the next N years. The decision to leave the EU was not purely a financial one so you need to educate yourself on this fact, just like the vote on Scottish independence was not purely financial.
A dose of realism is needed by many who would rather waste their energies trying to undo the democratic decision.
		
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 Briefly put ... your unhappy your desperate for a change, you think this is your opportunity but have no idea what the consequences are... your not the only one there are lots of people who feel the same. Sadly though the people who are responsible for your dilemma are local to the UK. They can affect your circumstances more than the EU..  it is human nature to want a bogey man.

There you go, psycho analysed ... for free ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## harpo_72 (Jan 2, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I think he meant an increase to the EU budget not the UK budget...
		
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If thatâ€™s the case if we are represented correctly we can seek to reject the proposal... or Nigel has failed to be present for that vote .. by the way he has applied for a German passport ..


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## harpo_72 (Jan 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			You know full well that you can't get a normally lay person to have any data to quantify an analysis to answer the questions - it just appears to be arguing for the sake of it.
		
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No we have clarity .. you want something but have no clue of the implications... ðŸ¤£


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## ger147 (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			If thatâ€™s the case if we are represented correctly we can seek to reject the proposal... or Nigel has failed to be present for that vote .. by the way he has applied for a German passport ..
		
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We don't have a veto over the EU budget so if we get out voted it goes up, even tho' we are one of the biggest contributors.


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			If thatâ€™s the case if we are represented correctly we can seek to reject the proposal... or Nigel has failed to be present for that vote .. by the way he has applied for a German passport ..
		
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Best tell the Italians they can reject the EU's instruction for their budget.


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## Mudball (Jan 2, 2019)

Chris Grayling has waded in and says that the Ferry contracts are the right thing.. Now I can relax we got the Right guy in charge of our infrastructure.. nothing can go wrong now..


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## harpo_72 (Jan 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Best tell the Italians they can reject the EU's instruction for their budget.
		
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Just watch the Italians ....


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## Slime (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No because they need to expand on the changes and how it will affect affordability of every day items and will the shops offer us a diverse selection we have ... the answer is high level because we know our situation, but we can go deeper and that has been already done. We have talked about the manufacture of components in other states and them then being transported to the UK for assembly, we have mentioned open border policies freedom for transportation etc... if you missed that then you have your blinkers on. *The leavers have not even decided what they want as the final outcome.*

Click to expand...

Wrong.
What part of independence and self-governance do you not understand?
Or do your blinkers have 'common sense' filters fitted?


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## harpo_72 (Jan 2, 2019)

Slime said:



			Wrong.
What part of independence and self-governance do you not understand?
Or do your blinkers have 'common sense filters' fitted?  

Click to expand...

Mate you donâ€™t know between you what is the exit you want Norway deal, Canadian deal, no deal or TM deal ... sort your selves out


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Mate you donâ€™t know between you what is the exit you want Norway deal, Canadian deal, no deal or TM deal ... sort your selves out
		
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People voted for Leave, many for various reasons. For some it was immigration, for others it was to end a creeping federalism and so on and so on. If you want to criticise anyone for what sort of deal they want you need to direct that at the politicians. The Man-in-street Leaver didn't vote for the things you've listed, only to Leave. Nothing else was on the ballot paper.


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## Slime (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Mate you donâ€™t know between you what is the exit you want Norway deal, Canadian deal, no deal or TM deal ... sort your selves out
		
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No deal wouldn't upset me one little bit.
Oh, and it's not for me to sort out, unfortunately.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Mate you donâ€™t know between you what is the exit you want Norway deal, Canadian deal, no deal or TM deal ... sort your selves out
		
Click to expand...

I see you are still struggling to comprehend the data supplied to you, let me give you a little more;although I sense an iformation overload brewing in your celebrial eggbox  Now this may come as a surprise to you but Leavers do want the same thing and that's to Leave the EU.  There you go, now you know and I do understand this may be lightbulb moment for you but give it a little  time, lay down in a darkened room and hopefully you will recover before it pops out the other ear.

Hope you're keeping up.  The deal we want happens to be the one that achieves our objective so we can get on with being an independent country.  Still with us?  The type of withdrawal agreement used to get us out is not up to us, thats the job of Parliament so maybe you could address your comment to them.  I fully understand if the reality filters are still denying you comprehension,


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## Foxholer (Jan 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I see you are still struggling to comprehend the data supplied to you, let me give you a little more;although I sense an iformation overload brewing in your celebrial eggbox  Now this may come as a surprise to you but Leavers do want the same thing and that's to Leave the EU.  There you go, now you know and I do understand this may be lightbulb moment for you but give it a little  time, lay down in a darkened room and hopefully you will recover before it pops out the other ear.

Hope you're keeping up.  The deal we want happens to be the one that achieves our objective so we can get on with being an independent country.  Still with us?  The type of withdrawal agreement used to get us out is not up to us, thats the job of Parliament so maybe you could address your comment to them.  I fully understand if the reality filters are still denying you comprehension,
		
Click to expand...

Well, given that Rees-Mogg and the PM have significantly different 'definitions' of what 'Leaving the EU' will actually involve, it's not unreasonable for those who decide to criticise the process/participants to actually have considerable ammunition!

It seems to me that 'leaving it to Parliament' is an entirely unsatisfactory 'solution'. The parliamentary bosses seem to have only been able to negotiate a 'leave' that could well still entrap the UK in the whims of the EU. And as a significant number, perhaps even a majority, of parliament wish to remain, I'm dubious about whether 'leaving it to Parliament' is actually a good idea!

Btw. I'm pretty sure your views would be given more credence by Remainers if they a) had a better description/definition of such things as 'to Leave the EU'  and b) contained significantly less condescension/insults like the quoted post (frustrating as some replies may be!)! I'm pretty sure you are actually capable of doing both in the same way that both DRDel and Hobbit do! If not, kindly leave the replies to them!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Mate you donâ€™t know between you what is the exit you want Norway deal, Canadian deal, no deal or TM deal ... sort your selves out
		
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Are you suggesting that all who voted Remain did so for the same reason and wanted the status quo maintained?

No, they didn't.

I voted Remain but I know my desired future direction of the UK in Europe was very different to many others.

Certainly wanted no part of a Federal Europe.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Well, given that Rees-Mogg and the PM have significantly different 'definitions' of what 'Leaving the EU' will actually involve, it's not unreasonable for those who decide to criticise the process/participants to actually have considerable ammunition!

It seems to me that 'leaving it to Parliament' is an entirely unsatisfactory 'solution'. The parliamentary bosses seem to have only been able to negotiate a 'leave' that could well still entrap the UK in the whims of the EU. And as a significant number, perhaps even a majority, of parliament wish to remain, I'm dubious about whether 'leaving it to Parliament' is actually a good idea!

Btw. I'm pretty sure your views would be given more credence by Remainers if they a) had a better description/definition of such things as 'to Leave the EU'  and b) contained significantly less condescension/insults like the quoted post (frustrating as some replies may be!)! I'm pretty sure you are actually capable of doing both in the same way that both DRDel and Hobbit do! If not, kindly leave the replies to them!
		
Click to expand...

Oh I have given reasoned responses many times but it gets rather onerous when the same questions are regurgitated ad infanitem.   
Maybe if I took a leaf from your book and called it 'Twaddle' ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Just watch the Italians ....
		
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Just watch the Italians do what? What sort of answer is that? Not â€œdeep and meaningfulâ€ thatâ€™s for sure.

They have reiterated their defiance of EU instructions, even though their proposed budget, 2.4%, is within the 3.0% limit. The EU is set to issue fines on a country that is operating within fiscal limits. 

France has proposed budget of 2.8% yet the EU havenâ€™t said a dicky bird.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I see you are still struggling to comprehend the data supplied to you, let me give you a little more;although I sense an iformation overload brewing in your celebrial eggbox  Now this may come as a surprise to you but Leavers do want the same thing and that's to Leave the EU.  There you go, now you know and I do understand this may be lightbulb moment for you but give it a little  time, lay down in a darkened room and hopefully you will recover before it pops out the other ear.

Hope you're keeping up.  The deal we want happens to be the one that achieves our objective so we can get on with being an independent country.  Still with us?  The type of withdrawal agreement used to get us out is not up to us, thats the job of Parliament so maybe you could address your comment to them.  I fully understand if the reality filters are still denying you comprehension,
		
Click to expand...

Senior moment ?


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## harpo_72 (Jan 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just watch the Italians do what? What sort of answer is that? Not â€œdeep and meaningfulâ€ thatâ€™s for sure.

They have reiterated their defiance of EU instructions, even though their proposed budget, 2.4%, is within the 3.0% limit. The EU is set to issue fines on a country that is operating within fiscal limits.

France has proposed budget of 2.8% yet the EU havenâ€™t said a dicky bird.
		
Click to expand...

There is a game at play ... just watch


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## harpo_72 (Jan 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Are you suggesting that all who voted Remain did so for the same reason and wanted the status quo maintained?

No, they didn't.

I voted Remain but I know my desired future direction of the UK in Europe was very different to many others.

Certainly wanted no part of a Federal Europe.
		
Click to expand...

I am aware of the different arguments for remain, they are very accessible and all quite well known... 
We donâ€™t have a united leave or a strategy apart from I am upset, I want to leave ...ðŸ˜­ðŸ˜­ðŸ˜­... leaving them open to ridicule


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			There is a game at play ... just watch
		
Click to expand...

Now you're just talking rubbish. You quote WTO rules as being misunderstood by many Leavers then give a wink and nod as though you have insider knowledge about the EU fiscal rules being twisted by the EU. Come on, be honest, you haven't got a clue whats going on with the EU budgeting. Game at play.... you've been caught out on something you don't know and are playing word games. Mate, you're making yourself look foolish on this one.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I am aware of the different arguments for remain, they are very accessible and all quite well known...
We donâ€™t have a united leave or a strategy apart from I am upset, I want to leave ...ðŸ˜­ðŸ˜­ðŸ˜­... leaving them open to ridicule
		
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But whichever path had been chosen in 2016 those from the other side could ridicule the victors for lack of clarity. 

Hardly constructive but then I haven't seen much constructive comment throughout. 

One side offering dreams and the other preaching fear.


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## Paperboy (Jan 2, 2019)

My friend at work an Italian, says if they where given a vote to leave the EU. It would go through quite comfortably lots of disillusioned folk in Italy by all accounts.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Senior moment ?
		
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Hope you don't get too many of them old boy


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

Worrying numbers but, equally, where's the big numbers that were forecast to have happened already....? Announced recently is the EU member state banks that are setting up offices in the UK so they can trade there. I do wonder what the net figure will be?


630 finance jobs relocated since Brexit vote, survey finds
By Aubrey Allegretti, political reporter
Around 630 finance jobs have been relocated out of Britain since the Brexit vote - significantly lower than banks warned - according to a survey.
The companies said they were hoping for a last-minute political deal that would save access to the EU's Â£14.9tn-a-year economy.
But in the run up to Brexit day, banks cautioned that under a "hard" divorce settlement around 5,800 would move out of the UK.
The findings come in a survey by Reuters of financial institutions based in Britain.
Many business chiefs fear Britain could be heading for a chaotic split that would spook financial markets and dislocate trade flows across Europe and beyond.
Some politicians on both sides of negotiations put the odds of talks collapsing at more than 50%.
But some forecasts on job losses have ranged from extremes.
The Brussels-based Bruegel research group claimed in February 2017 that 30,000 roles could move abroad under a hard Brexit.
While the London Stock Exchange warned the previous month the figure could be 232,000.
That is 500 more than the last survey, carried out in March, but 5,000 less than the first survey in September 2017.
Results were based on answers from 134 of the biggest or most internationally-focused banks, insurers, asset managers, private equity firms and exchanges to a survey conducted by between 1 August and 15 September.
HSBC, which has publicly said up to 1,000 jobs could move to Paris, has so far not moved any staff, a source at the bank said as part of the survey.
Royal Bank of Scotland, which expects to move 150 to Amsterdam, also has not moved any employees, an RBS source said.
Goldman Sachs, which has taken a new office in Frankfurt and plans to move 500 people to Europe, has only moved or hired about 100 so far.
JP Morgan, which has publicly said up to 4,000 jobs could move, said recently in a staff memorandum it has only asked "several dozen" staff to move.
Iain Anderson, the executive chairman of Cicero, a public affairs company, which represents many finance companies, said the impact of Brexit was likely to be much more modest than initially predicted.
He said early estimates were made by executives in a period of unprecedented emotional turmoil following the vote, adding: "They have now moved through the five stages of grief."
Source: Sky News


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## bladeplayer (Jan 2, 2019)

Maybe I'm over simplifying this but with all the heated discussions re what will or won't happen , the scaremongering the uncertainty surely when brexit was going to be voted on the government in favour of it or not , had a right no , obligation to investigate & provide that facts of what will happen good and bad , their plan to make the bad better and make the good great .. They seem to have failed totally on this ..

How was this an honest vote or a safe vote or Even a legal vote when hardly anyone knew what they were actually voting for .?


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Maybe I'm over simplifying this but with all the heated discussions re what will or won't happen , the scaremongering the uncertainty surely when brexit was going to be voted on the government in favour of it or not , had a right no , obligation to investigate & provide that facts of what will happen good and bad , their plan to make the bad better and make the good great .. They seem to have failed totally on this ..

How was this an honest vote or a safe vote or Even a legal vote when hardly anyone knew what they were actually voting for .?
		
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Good point Bill. In theory, the voters should have had all the facts prior to the (first) vote. Following on from that you'd hope that the political parties would recognise what had just happened, i.e. the result of the vote, and behave in a manner that is seen as being for the good of the country... The rest is, as they say, history.

Oh how I wish we had politicians like John Smith, Tony Benn, Portillo and the brighter of the Milibands. I can only see things getting worse as all parties climb for the holy grail and the, supposed, higher moral ground.


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## IanM (Jan 2, 2019)

How can anyone provide certain facts about what will happen in the future?  Although your scenario based question is hugely valid.  Plenty of that has been flying around, but it is pretty tough to find anything objective.   (esp if you are an agency taking EU cash!  ooops)

I've said for ages that we were voting for remain in an increasingly federal EU or leave it.  That was absolutely certain...so its about sovereignty, not just trade!!     I am getting increasingly comfortable with my position as the losing side are keen to speculate on economic disaster and choose to ignore perfectly clear Federal Posturing from the EU Leaders.... I even posted a video of one such speech recently and it passed without comment.... maybe the hardcore remainers on here have blocked me!


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

IanM said:



			How can anyone provide certain facts about what will happen in the future?  Although your scenario based question is hugely valid.  Plenty of that has been flying around, but it is pretty tough to find anything objective.   (esp if you are an agency taking EU cash!  ooops)

I've said for ages that we were voting for remain in an increasingly federal EU or leave it.  That was absolutely certain...â€¦.I am getting increasingly comfortable with my position as the losing side are keen to speculate on economic disaster and choose to ignore perfectly clear Federal Posturing from the EU Leaders.... I even posted a video of one such speech recently and it passed without comment.... maybe the hardcore remainers on here have blocked me! 

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"Increasingly federal EU..."

Whilst looking for the EU's own popularity survey results from last week I find a little publicised piece about a (supreme) EU prosecutor that is on Juncker's wishlist for 2019. A proposed new position. The EU prosecutor will be the top dog in every country's judiciary, just as the proposed EU chancellor will be the MD to every country's chancellor. "Creeping federalism?" Its bloody galloping along.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			SR. This is old news but Carillon through its negligence sent thousands of jobs from other companies who they never paid to the dole queue. They made X number of companies go bust. Yet my tax payers money should of stopped Carilion going under coz your trusted mate says so. Would like to think my money went to the companies that did nowt wrong.
		
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Just saying that the company could have been saved if the government had wanted to do so and in doing so could have avoided the mess that Carillion and it's employees, suppliers and partners are suffering.  I'm not trying to excuse Carillion of bad or malpractice.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Your right, itâ€™s all they only have.. quoting WTO incorrectly, misunderstanding the economy contributors, manufacturing of goods in this country ... they are all clueless. But sadly all of these are dismissed as scaremongering and never dealt with a reasonable fact based argument.
		
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I've had it for two and a half years and just heartily sick to the teeth of it - but I'm not going to stop doing whatever I can to prevent happening something that I feel will be severely damaging to the future lives and prospects of my children as well as damaging to the UK and UK society as a whole.


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just saying that the company could have been saved if the government had wanted to do so and in doing so could have avoided the mess that Carillion and it's employees, suppliers and partners are suffering.  I'm not trying to excuse Carillion of bad or malpractice.
		
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The govt of the day saved British Leyland for years, and that didn't work. They saved British Rail for years, and that didn't work. And they saved British Steel for years, and you've guessed it... when a govt steps in the company and the unions think they're bomb proof. As painful as it was the right outcome has been achieved.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The question has been answered in great detail, you however seem unable to absorb the data and keep reiterating the question.  It becomes  very difficult not to question your ability to comprehend information and partake in reasoned debate.
		
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OK then - just give one tangible and quantifiable benefit that Joe Bloggs will experience short term as he faces higher prices and less choice - and perhaps unemployment - just one please,  anything will do - and let's assume he's not a fisherman, and put aside blue passports and @Hobbit's potential for lower costs on some goods due to reduced tariffs - reduced tariffs that could put UK manufacturing and agriculture at risk.  Just one.  Something that Joe Bloggs will 'feel the benefit of' soon after we leave.  Because I just don't get it - and clearly I am not alone.


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just saying that the company could have been saved if the government had wanted to do so and in doing so could have avoided the mess that Carillion and it's employees, suppliers and partners are suffering.  I'm not trying to excuse Carillion of bad or malpractice.
		
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Also, the govt funded the completion of the Birmingham hospitals project in April 2018, and the Royal Liverpool hospitals Trust in Sept 2018. The govt paid out almost Â£800m in 6 months. Sounds like the govt at least paid for the completion of the work after Carillion went bump.


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## robinthehood (Jan 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK then - just give one tangible and quantifiable benefit that Joe Bloggs will experience short term as he faces higher prices and less choice - and perhaps unemployment - just one please,  anything will do - and let's assume he's not a fisherman, and put aside blue passports and @Hobbit's potential for lower costs on some goods due to reduced tariffs - reduced tariffs that could put UK manufacturing and agriculture at risk.  Just one.  Something that Joe Bloggs will 'feel the benefit of' soon after we leave.  Because I just don't get it - and clearly I am not alone.
		
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You can get a more powerful vacuum cleaner.ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			People voted for Leave, many for various reasons. For some it was immigration, for others it was to end a creeping federalism and so on and so on. If you want to criticise anyone for what sort of deal they want you need to direct that at the politicians. *The Man-in-street Leaver didn't vote for the things you've listed, only to Leave. Nothing else was on the ballot paper.*

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Which is the argument for a further vote...


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK then - just give one tangible and quantifiable benefit that Joe Bloggs will experience short term as he faces higher prices and less choice - and perhaps unemployment - just one please,  anything will do - and let's assume he's not a fisherman, and put aside blue passports and @Hobbit's potential for lower costs on some goods due to reduced tariffs - reduced tariffs that could put UK manufacturing and agriculture at risk.  Just one.  Something that Joe Bloggs will 'feel the benefit of' soon after we leave.  Because I just don't get it - and clearly I am not alone.
		
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What about if the tariffs are on products not produced by UK industries? Why do you always only see one side of the argument? Do you know the levels of some of the tariffs? For example, some meat products have a 15% tariff + â‚¬171 per 100kg. That's just one saving to Joe Bloggs weekly food bill.


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is the argument for a further vote...
		
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Rubbish! The man in the street voted to Leave. Let's make it best of 3, or best of 5. You're being silly.


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You can get a more powerful vacuum cleaner.ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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Isn't it past your bed time?

See you avoided answering my previous post. amazing how you always go missing when someone pins you down.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You can get a more powerful vacuum cleaner.ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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If you can get someone in the UK to be manufacturing these vacuum cleaners...


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## robinthehood (Jan 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Isn't it past your bed time?

See you avoided answering my previous post. amazing how you always go missing when someone pins you down.
		
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Lol pinned me down. I just can't be arsed it's such a waste of time, I'm too busy relocating to Luxembourg.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What about if the tariffs are on products not produced by UK industries? Why do you always only see one side of the argument? Do you know the levels of some of the tariffs? For example, some meat products have a 15% tariff + â‚¬171 per 100kg. That's just one saving to Joe Bloggs weekly food bill.
		
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I see that.  Though surely it is the case that under WTO rules if we apply zero tariffs to certain imported meat products then outside of trade deals that zero tariff has to apply to all imports of such meat products from every country with exports targetted at the UK - and how specific are the tariffs in respect of the meat products the tariffs are applied to?  I don't know.  So for instance I can imagine that a category of tariffs under WTO rules could be 'processed meat products' - now that would cover products not produced in the UK but could also include UK produced product.  So taking back control under WTO rules could actually mean having to adhere to tariff categories and rates determined by a body on which the UK has no representation whatsoever. 

Also - and just wondering - if we cut import tariffs to such meat products does the tax man lose out on the take from VAT on these products? Dunno.

But OK.  So on the benefit side we have the potential of lower prices on imported products not available from a UK source.  You gave me that one and it definitely goes on the benefit side of the scales.  But not sure it measures up against what Joe might well loses and higher costs elsewhere...and risk to employment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Rubbish! The man in the street voted to Leave. Let's make it best of 3, or best of 5. You're being silly.
		
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No - honestly I don't think that it's being silly.  There has to be a way out of this mess and the government and parliament do not seem to be able to find it.  We'll see on that in the next two weeks.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You can get a more powerful vacuum cleaner.ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## Tashyboy (Jan 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - honestly I don't think that it's being silly.  There has to be a way out of this mess and the government and parliament do not seem to be able to find it.  We'll see on that in the next two weeks.
		
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Out of interest, I would love to know your views on who is to blame for this mess.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Lol pinned me down. I just can't be arsed it's such a waste of time, I'm too busy relocating to Luxembourg.
		
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Ã¤ddi


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## Hobbit (Jan 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I see that.  Though surely it is the case that under WTO rules if we apply zero tariffs to certain imported meat products then outside of trade deals that zero tariff has to apply to all imports of such meat products from every country with exports targetted at the UK - and how specific are the tariffs in respect of the meat products the tariffs are applied to?  I don't know.  So for instance I can imagine that a category of tariffs under WTO rules could be 'processed meat products' - now that would cover products not produced in the UK but could also include UK produced product.  So taking back control under WTO rules could actually mean having to adhere to tariff categories and rates determined by a body on which the UK has no representation whatsoever.

Also - and just wondering - if we cut import tariffs to such meat products does the tax man lose out on the take from VAT on these products? Dunno.

But OK.  So on the benefit side we have the potential of lower prices on imported products not available from a UK source.  You gave me that one and it definitely goes on the benefit side of the scales.  But not sure it measures up against what Joe might well loses and higher costs elsewhere...and risk to employment.
		
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Just a quick one. VAT goes to the EU coffers. Drop that and everyone saves 20% + the tariffs. Imagine saving 35%.... that's some pay rise.


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## robinthehood (Jan 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
		
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No they make more of a shush


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			But OK.  So on the benefit side we have the potential of lower prices on imported products not available from a UK source.  You gave me that one and it definitely goes on the benefit side of the scales.  But not sure it measures up against what Joe might well loses and higher costs elsewhere...and risk to employment.
		
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Is anyone else looking out for the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse riding over the horizon? It seems as though SiLH has just admitted that there *MIGHT* be one upside to leaving the EU.


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## Pants (Jan 2, 2019)

Pants said:



			Just a thought.  How about those with their crystal balls who have spent endless hours telling us of the gloom and doom that will befall us when we leave the EU, using those same balls to tell us what the mid to long term effects of staying in the EU would bring.

Things like future contributions, rebates, joining the Euro, federal state, other countries wanting to leave, budget agreements, European armed force, probable collapse of the experiment, etc, etc.

Come on.  If you really can tell us *The Facts* and back them up, some leavers might be persuaded to change their minds. Until then, crystal ball gazing and opinions have no real sway (imho obviously).
		
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IanM said:



			Given the absolute clarity of recent speeches by EU Leadership on the route the EU will be taking, maybe some comment by the Remainers on here is due, about why we need to abandon our sovereignty in favour of being in a fully Federal Europe. 

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Nearly 24 hours now and not a single remainer has been able to bring themselves to rise to the challenge.  Just like the politicians that they decry, they avoid uncomfortable questions and instead carry on pointing out where they think others have got it wrong.

Or, I suppose, their crystal balls might need a Euro in the meter to clear the clouds .........


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK then - just give one tangible and quantifiable benefit that Joe Bloggs will experience short term as he faces higher prices and less choice - and perhaps unemployment - just one please,  anything will do - and let's assume he's not a fisherman, and put aside blue passports and @Hobbit's potential for lower costs on some goods due to reduced tariffs - reduced tariffs that could put UK manufacturing and agriculture at risk.  Just one.  Something that Joe Bloggs will 'feel the benefit of' soon after we leave.  Because I just don't get it - and clearly I am not alone.
		
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Serious question. Why are you posting on this thread?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK then - just give one tangible and quantifiable benefit that Joe Bloggs will experience short term as he faces higher prices and less choice - and perhaps unemployment - just one please,  anything will do - and let's assume he's not a fisherman, and put aside blue passports and @Hobbit's potential for lower costs on some goods due to reduced tariffs - reduced tariffs that could put UK manufacturing and agriculture at risk.  Just one.  Something that Joe Bloggs will 'feel the benefit of' soon after we leave.  Because I just don't get it - and clearly I am not alone.
		
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The main benefit will be control of our own destiny, its not just economics, oh no, it was always more than that.   Short term will always be the difficult period in any change to circumstances although what is it that you fear so much, the government will want a good free trade arrangement with the EU and what ever you fear this will happen, it may be after a transition period or after a clean Brexit, who knows at this stage as our politicians play out their silly self edifying games.   The monetry gains may not be imediate but  who knows at this stage as the negotiations continue.   You dont know any more than I how the politics will pan out so please can you stop these rather unnecessary ameture dramatics and imagineing it can change the path of things outside your control now.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What about if the tariffs are on products not produced by UK industries? Why do you always only see one side of the argument? Do you know the levels of some of the tariffs? For example, some meat products have a 15% tariff + â‚¬171 per 100kg. That's just one saving to Joe Bloggs weekly food bill.
		
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Woopee woo we can buy cheap American chlorinated chicken and Brazilian beef bred on cleared Amazonian forests.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 3, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Out of interest, I would love to know your views on who is to blame for this mess.
		
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 Have you been living under a rock for the last 5 years.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 3, 2019)

So let's just imagine that there is a second vote and let's also imagine that the result is to Remain. 

How does that "get us out of this mess", to quote one prolific poster?

Do we assume that the Leave supporters are going to quietly accept the result in a way that the Remainers cannot?

Those of us who aren't capable of accepting the first result, whether or not it was the one they wanted, and supporting efforts to ensure the best possible outcome are not mature enough for democracy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 3, 2019)

A bit of sobering clarity about what is and is not possible before 29th March

https://twitter.com/akulith


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## Foxholer (Jan 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just a quick one. *VAT goes to the EU coffers*. Drop that and everyone saves 20% + the tariffs. Imagine saving 35%.... that's some pay rise.
		
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Can you please point to a source that confirms this? As far as I know, it simply goes to HMRC coffers. Joining the EEC required VAT to be introduced for consistency across Member ?States but I don't believe the revenue goes to the EU coffers.

Btw. Your arithmetic is also flawed.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Have you been living under a rock for the last 5 years. 

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Let me try and be a bit more precise, 
Do you blame the Tories for putting in there election manifesto a vote on stay or leave.
Do you blame the people who in a democratic vote, voted Leave.
Do you blame Labour for having its own agenda.
Do you blame Tories for having there own agenda
Do you blame the people who are pushing for a second vote.
Do you Blame the EU for negotiating a good deal for them.
Do you blame Theresa May for accepting a crap deal.
Do you blame Theresa May for being pig headed throughout these negotiations.
Do you blame Cameron and Osborne for legging it. 

Quite simple really ðŸ‘


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## Tashyboy (Jan 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Woopee woo we can buy cheap American chlorinated chicken and Brazilian beef bred on cleared Amazonian forests.
		
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As against the cancer rich bacon we already have, yup that's another arguement you won hands down.


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## IanM (Jan 3, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Let me try and be a bit more precise,
Do you blame the Tories for putting in there election manifesto a vote on stay or leave.
Do you blame the people who in a democratic vote, voted Leave.
Do you blame Labour for having its own agenda.
Do you blame Tories for having there own agenda
Do you blame the people who are pushing for a second vote.
Do you Blame the EU for negotiating a good deal for them.
Do you blame Theresa May for accepting a crap deal.
Do you blame Theresa May for being pig headed throughout these negotiations.
Do you blame Cameron and Osborne for legging it.

Quite simple really ðŸ‘
		
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By Jove you've nailed it.   We have politicans being paid to hand over control to the EU and 48% of the public brainswashed into thinking the world doesnt exist without the EU!   
Being out of the EU is not the same as the shambles the establishment are wilfully making the process of leaving look.


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## Slime (Jan 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've had it for two and a half years and just heartily sick to the teeth of it - but I'm not going to stop doing whatever I can to prevent happening something that I feel will be severely damaging to the future lives and prospects of my children as well as damaging to the UK and UK society as a whole.
		
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But you can't do anything about it because the nation has made it's decision, it just happens to be contrary to your's.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 3, 2019)

IanM said:



			By Jove you've nailed it.   We have politicans being paid to hand over control to the EU and 48% of the public brainswashed into thinking the world doesnt exist without the EU!  
Being out of the EU is not the same as the shambles the establishment are wilfully making the process of leaving look.
		
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Ian I could of gone on and on, but the thread is going round and round in ever decreasing circles. At least until the vote in Parliment as to whether the deal is rejected or accepted. Then we wil have something else to argue over, ie if the vote is rejected by a majority of 5, do we have another vote. ðŸ˜‰


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## Dando (Jan 3, 2019)

Slime said:



			But you can't do anything about it because the nation has made it's decision, it just happens to be contrary to your's.
		
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The only thing he can do is bore us all to tears with his non stop whinging


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## IanM (Jan 3, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Ian I could of gone on and on, but the thread is going round and round in ever decreasing circles. At least until the vote in Parliment as to whether the deal is rejected or accepted. Then we wil have something else to argue over, ie if the vote is rejected by a majority of 5, do we have another vote. ðŸ˜‰
		
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Vote in Parliament is funny... as no one wants any of the outcomes!
1) Leavers don't want May's (so called) Deal as they say is is a a fudge
2) Remainers don't want any deal regardless of content - they just wanna stay in. 

Meanwhile Corbyn just wants to be PM so he can reform the Soviet Union, starting in North London    Ok, bit of license there!


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## Hobbit (Jan 3, 2019)

The 2nd vote that's been bandied around; who's asking for it? Is it Remainers? Is it Leavers, or is it a mixture of both? Should it be a vote on accepting May's deal or going straight to Leave with no deal? Should Remain be a 3rd option on the voting slip?

Remain/Leave has already been decided, but as has been said on a number of occasions, people are better informed now. But being cynical, who is saying people are better informed now? Is it only Remainers saying the people are better informed now?

At the end of the day, the original decision was Leave. The Tories have made an absolute Horlicks of it, but that doesn't take away the fact that the vote was to Leave. But as others have said, is it wise to Leave when were governed by such a bunch of incompetents? Or a GE would bring in the possibility of the UK being the next Venezuela, maybe. Maybe it is time for a radical change for the next 5 years but is it time for a generational change?


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## Foxholer (Jan 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The 2nd vote that's been bandied around; who's asking for it? Is it Remainers? Is it Leavers, or is it a mixture of both? Should it be a vote on accepting May's deal or going straight to Leave with no deal? Should Remain be a 3rd option on the voting slip?

Remain/Leave has already been decided, but as has been said on a number of occasions, people are better informed now. But being cynical, who is saying people are better informed now? Is it only Remainers saying the people are better informed now?

At the end of the day, the original decision was Leave. The Tories have made an absolute Horlicks of it, but that doesn't take away the fact that the vote was to Leave. But as others have said, is it wise to Leave when were governed by such a bunch of incompetents? Or a GE would bring in the possibility of the UK being the next Venezuela, maybe. Maybe it is time for a radical change for the next 5 years but is it time for a generational change?
		
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I believe that a second vote is only being promoted by those who 'didn't like' the result of the first one. That's an invalid reason for one imo. The only 'further' referendum on the subject I would consider 'valid' would be a 'This Deal vs No Deal' one.

I don't believe Labour being the negotiating team would have made any significant difference to the quality of negotiations - at least, certainly not to the advantage of the UK. As I've stated several times, it was/is a poisoned chalice for whoever took responsibility for them.


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## drdel (Jan 3, 2019)

So the argument for a second vote is based on the belief that there is a greater awareness of what will change among the great unwashed - judging by the repetitive posts over the last 2+years from the ardent Remainers on this site who want a 2nd vote:  I see no evidence that their arguments have changed and so I think their rhetoric is baseless and the call disproved.


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## bladeplayer (Jan 3, 2019)

But ... whats the harm in a second vote ? Only the people can change the outcome and surely the people have that right ? Yes / No ?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 3, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			But ... whats the harm in a second vote ? Only the people can change the outcome and surely the people have that right ? Yes / No ?
		
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But what would the question be?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 3, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Let me try and be a bit more precise,
Do you blame the Tories for putting in there election manifesto a vote on stay or leave.
Do you blame the people who in a democratic vote, voted Leave.
Do you blame Labour for having its own agenda.
Do you blame Tories for having there own agenda
Do you blame the people who are pushing for a second vote.
Do you Blame the EU for negotiating a good deal for them.
Do you blame Theresa May for accepting a crap deal.
Do you blame Theresa May for being pig headed throughout these negotiations.
Do you blame Cameron and Osborne for legging it.

Quite simple really ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Yes as simple as my question was......it is pretty obvious to most enlightened people that all on your list are all to blame. [except the EU]
BTW you missed out UKIP.
It must also be one of the rare occasions when a Unionist is not putting some element of obscure blame on the SNP.


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've had it for two and a half years and just heartily sick to the teeth of it - but I'm not going to stop doing whatever I can to prevent happening something that I feel will be severely damaging to the future lives and prospects of my children as well as damaging to the UK and UK society as a whole.
		
Click to expand...

So your comment on a previous thread stating you accept the vote even though you don't agree with it was a lie.

What action are you going to take to prevent it happening.

I notice you have seen into Joe Bloggs future, care to show were you got your facts from.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 3, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			But ... whats the harm in a second vote ? Only the people can change the outcome and surely the people have that right ? Yes / No ?
		
Click to expand...

As I  have already asked what happens if a second vote reverses the first result?

Why is that result any more likely to be accepted than the other?

What then? A penalty shootout?

All sounds a bit like the Treaty of Lisbon referendum in your homeland.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 3, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			But ... whats the harm in a second vote ? Only the people can change the outcome and surely the people have that right ? Yes / No ?
		
Click to expand...

I suspect it won't happen as it opens the door for Ms Sturgeon to push for indyref 2...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 3, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I suspect it won't happen as it opens the door for Ms Sturgeon to push for indyref 2...
		
Click to expand...

No she is probably hoping for as hard a Brexit as Johnson, Gove etc can deliver.
Either way the outcome  it is an obvious win win for the only UK politician who is honestly representing their voters.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No she is probably hoping for as hard a Brexit as Johnson, Gove etc can deliver.
Either way the outcome  it is an obvious win win for the only UK politician who is honestly representing their voters.
		
Click to expand...

She can hope for all she wants but it won't guarantee a second bite of the cherry... Whereas, if a second vote occurred, for brexit, it narrows the reasons for denying indyref2...


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## drdel (Jan 3, 2019)

The first vote was a binary choice and as staticians know on such issues the result with such a large number participating the outcome will always be close (+-/- 5%).

If there are 3 questions the outcome will be normalised  by the large number of respondents : so now you have more confusion.

So how can you have any new vote with just a binary choice that is not skewed one way or the other - impossible.


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## Hobbit (Jan 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			The first vote was a binary choice and as staticians know on such issues the result with such a large number participating the outcome will always be close (+-/- 5%).

If there are 3 questions the outcome will be normalised  by the large number of respondents : so now you have more confusion.

So how can you have any new vote with just a binary choice that is not skewed one way or the other - impossible.
		
Click to expand...

You're not wrong there. Imagine a result that said 35%, 33%, 32%, and the decision was 35% to stay in the EU.


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## Pants (Jan 3, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I notice you have seen into Joe Bloggs future, care to show were you got your facts from.
		
Click to expand...

I think that you are wasting your time OS.  He, and the other winging remainers don't seem to want to deal in facts - only negative opinions on leaving formed by gazing into their crystal balls.  Heck.  They can't even come up with any facts (positive or negative) regarding would will happen in the short/mid/long term if we stayed.

Btw.  Can anyone suggest a reason why several of the most fervent remainer posters on this thread appear to have a Scottish background?


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## Leftie (Jan 3, 2019)

Pants said:



			Btw.  Can anyone suggest a reason why several of the most fervent remainer posters on this thread appear to have a Scottish background?  

Click to expand...


Well practiced trolls??


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## Dando (Jan 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes as simple as my question was......it is pretty obvious to most enlightened people that all on your list are all to blame. [except the EU]
BTW you missed out UKIP.
It must also be one of the rare occasions when a Unionist is not putting some element of obscure blame on the SNP. 

Click to expand...

WHy arenâ€™t the EU to blame?


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## Hobbit (Jan 3, 2019)

Pants said:



			Can anyone suggest a reason why several of the most fervent remainer posters on this thread appear to have a Scottish background?  

Click to expand...

Maybe its indicative that the majority of Scots voted Remain... simples really.


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## bladeplayer (Jan 3, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			But what would the question be?
		
Click to expand...

No idea to be honest i suppose it would have to be after March 31
But when the government go to the people they are looking for a mandate on the promises / proposals they have put forward in the build up . These mandates or proposals most definitely have not been delivered 
They , both sides need to underline what this bad deal / no deal brexit means short term and as best long term as they now know what is and is not on the table from Europe . Then let the people decide on what's on offer now


I'm Irish and our crowd are rubbish but I'd find it hard to accept a result when not only the goal posts have been moved but I think the stadium and opposition has been changed..


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## Slime (Jan 3, 2019)

Dando said:



			WHy arenâ€™t the EU to blame?
		
Click to expand...

Because it doesn't suit his agenda?


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## Hobbit (Jan 3, 2019)

Spain considering dropping VAT for British tourists visiting the Canaries, post-Brexit.

"SPAIN TOURISM HOTSPOT COULD CANCEL TAX FOR BRITISH TOURISTS AMID BREXIT FEARS

BRITISH tourists could be exempt from paying â€˜VATâ€™ in the Canary Islands in a bid to battle Brexit.
President of the Spanish islands Fernando Clavijo said the measure would make the Canaries more competitive and help them achieve â€˜better resultsâ€™."


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## bladeplayer (Jan 3, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			As I  have already asked what happens if a second vote reverses the first result?

Why is that result any more likely to be accepted than the other?

What then? A penalty shootout?

All sounds a bit like the Treaty of Lisbon referendum in your homeland.
		
Click to expand...

But as I said previous only the people can change the result , leave or remain people must accept what's on offer now is not what many people based their vote on

Re the Lisbon treaty we said no , our government went back to Europe got changes and went back to country again with the new terms we said yes .. This is why I think UK should do the same

Oh and we are too small to reject the EU for too long so we will bend over eventually..we are dependent on grants


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## Hobbit (Jan 3, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			But as I said previous only the people can change the result , leave or remain people must accept what's on offer now is not what many people based their vote on

Re the Lisbon treaty we said no , our government went back to Europe got changes and went back to country again with the new terms we said yes .. This is why I think UK should do the same

Oh and we are too small to reject the EU for too long so we will bend over eventually..we are dependent on grants
		
Click to expand...

I'd check whether or not Ireland did get the Treaty amended. From what I remember the text of the Treaty wasn't amended but amendments were added recognising Ireland's constitutional rule that the Irish people would retain the right to vote on treaties. 

That wasn't how it was sold to the Irish people at the time but it went through on the second vote. I could be wrongs it was so long ago but...


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## drdel (Jan 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You're not wrong there. Imagine a result that said 35%, 33%, 32%, and the decision was 35% to stay in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I seriously fear and suspect everyone and his uncle (sorry not PC) would try and add any of the two percentages together and claim a majority - putting us in an even bigger mess than we already have !!!  T'would make DfT and SILH very happy !


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## bladeplayer (Jan 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'd check whether or not Ireland did get the Treaty amended. From what I remember the text of the Treaty wasn't amended but amendments were added recognising Ireland's constitutional rule that the Irish people would retain the right to vote on treaties.

That wasn't how it was sold to the Irish people at the time but it went through on the second vote. I could be wrongs it was so long ago but...
		
Click to expand...

Don't rightly remember myself Brian to be honest , my mrs who worked on all the open forums around the country is of the opinion irl voted no because we did not receive enough info on change so backlash was a no vote , even the politicians who said this is great vote for it admitted they hadn't read it , there was an amendment to the wording at least possibly to cover what u mentioned above  , I have to be honest I don't remember much more about it


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2019)

We should wait and see if May can get any further concessions before the parliament vote, if the vote fails then the government  should  inform the EU we will now leave with either a trade agreement and payoff or just leave.


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## shagster (Jan 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You're not wrong there. Imagine a result that said 35%, 33%, 32%, and the decision was 35% to stay in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

that is an election result
winners 35
losers 33
don't care/didn't vote 32

that's why politics is not working
all this talk of a deal and delaying the vote is BS
we voted out, lets get out
not out with a deal, that was not on my ballot paper
its not the okey kokey


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2019)

Pants said:



			I think that you are wasting your time OS.  He, and the other winging remainers don't seem to want to deal in facts - only negative opinions on leaving formed by gazing into their crystal balls.  Heck.  They can't even come up with any facts (positive or negative) regarding would will happen in the short/mid/long term if we stayed.

Btw.  Can anyone suggest a reason why several of the most fervent remainer posters on this thread appear to have a Scottish background?  

Click to expand...

How about 62% of Scots voted to remain. Every single district of Scotland voted to remain.
The Scottish Parliament with the exception of a handful of far right Tory MSP's voted to oppose the UK Government from dragging the people of Scotland out of the EU.
The UK Government has flatly refused to work with the Scottish Government to find a workable solution for Scots with Brexit. despite doing so with NI and Gibraltar.
And now they insult us by saying we have to work together for the best solution for England and perhaps Wales.
Surprised you do not know these facts already [not]

BTW Re your first question, from this side of the fence exactly the same can be said about cliff face Leavers.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How about 62% of Scots voted to remain. Every single district of Scotland voted to remain.
The Scottish Parliament with the exception of a handful of far right Tory MSP's voted to oppose the UK Government from dragging the people of Scotland out of the EU.
The UK Government has flatly refused to work with the Scottish Government to find a workable solution for Scots with Brexit. despite doing so with NI and Gibraltar.
And now they insult us by saying we have to work together for the best solution for England and perhaps Wales.
Surprised you do not know these facts already [not]

BTW Re your first question, from this side of the fence exactly the same can be said about cliff face Leavers.
		
Click to expand...

Scotland reject leaving the UK in a referendum.
The UK which includes scotland  votes to leave the EU in a referendum.

Keep up Doon, you seem to be struggling to follow the reality of Brexit.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Scotland reject leaving the UK in a referendum.
The UK which includes scotland  votes to leave the EU in a referendum.

Keep up Doon, you seem to be struggling to follow the reality of Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

And the Doon once again ignores the fact that by gaining independence Scotland would have left the EU. Something those in the SNP forget along with the fact that the SNP used to campaign on leaving the EU.


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## Dando (Jan 4, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And the Doon once again ignores the fact that by gaining independence Scotland would have left the EU. Something those in the SNP forget along with the fact that the SNP used to campaign on leaving the EU.
		
Click to expand...

don't confuse him with facts


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			don't confuse him with facts
		
Click to expand...

He pretends to have blocked me so he won't see it


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2019)

Slime said:



			Because it doesn't suit his agenda?
		
Click to expand...

Really, I would be interested to know what you blame them for...â€¦â€¦â€¦.not doing what we say is a non counter.
I think they have gone out of there way to help the UK, once they stopped laughing at Davis and Mays demands.


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## Dando (Jan 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really, I would be interested to know what you blame them for...â€¦â€¦â€¦.not doing what we say is a non counter.
I think they have gone out of there way to help the UK, once they stopped laughing at Davis and Mays demands.
		
Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really, I would be interested to know what you blame them for...â€¦â€¦â€¦.not doing what we say is a non counter.
I think they have gone out of there way to help the UK, once they stopped laughing at Davis and Mays demands.
		
Click to expand...

Like you Doon they have hidden agenda, theirs is to use Brexit as a tool towards their real objective of breaking away from the UK. Yours is to promote closet racism against the English.
So now you know.


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## Pants (Jan 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re your first question, from this side of the fence exactly the same can be said about cliff face Leavers

How about 62% of Scots voted to remain. Every single district of Scotland voted to remain.
The Scottish Parliament with the exception of a handful of far right Tory MSP's voted to oppose the UK Government from dragging the people of Scotland out of the EU.
The UK Government has flatly refused to work with the Scottish Government to find a workable solution for Scots with Brexit. despite doing so with NI and Gibraltar.
And now they insult us by saying we have to work together for the best solution for England and perhaps Wales.
Surprised you do not know these facts already [not]
.
		
Click to expand...

Read and understand what is written Doon.  My first paragraph wasn't a question.  It was a statement which was proven true by your response.  All I have been asking for is for remainers to provide some facts relating mid/long term effects of REMAINING - not speculation of what MIGHT/COULD happen when we leave.  I want to hear positives about remaining - not negatives about leaving.

Re the rest of your waffle, Hobbit basically covered what you wrote in 12 words.

Do you want a deep fried battered Mars Bar with that chip?


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## drdel (Jan 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How about 62% of Scots voted to remain. Every single district of Scotland voted to remain.
The Scottish Parliament with the exception of a handful of far right Tory MSP's voted to oppose the UK Government from dragging the people of Scotland out of the EU.
The UK Government has flatly refused to work with the Scottish Government to find a workable solution for Scots with Brexit. despite doing so with NI and Gibraltar.
And now they insult us by saying we have to work together for the best solution for England and perhaps Wales.
Surprised you do not know these facts already [not]

BTW Re your first question, from this side of the fence exactly the same can be said about cliff face Leavers.
		
Click to expand...

It was a referendum where 1 person equals 1 vote. It doesn't matter that some areas of the UK voted differently to others.

Remind me how many people does your 62% represent that you think they should swing the outcome?


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## User62651 (Jan 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			It was a referendum where 1 person equals 1 vote. It doesn't matter that some areas of the UK voted differently to others.

Remind me how many people does your 62% represent that you think they should swing the outcome?
		
Click to expand...

UK is not a sole country, it's a complex Union of 2 kingdoms, a principality and a province. Any leader of the so called Conservative and *Unionist *party should have had the wherewithall to manage a delicate Union accordingly but Mr Cameron chose not to and we find ourselves where we are, nationalism in England and Scotland on the rise, NI unionists being sold out by May after being bought by May. Read the last dozen posts and you'll see the real nationalism from the Farage fan club. Just repeatedly bleating that EU ref was a UK vote is true but oversimplifies something very complex that is the UK. There are plenty leavers up here too so having a pop at Scots as a reason for Brexit stalling is daft, yes we get outvoted every time so we have literally had no say as part of UK, we didn't vote for Camerons Tories in 2015 - they got 1 sole Tory MP in commons then and we didn't vote for Brexit and we were also assured in 2014 the only way to stay in the EU was to remain in the UK. We have our own voice withing the UK with a devolved parliament, a Union of countries should at lest listen to it's component areas, no matter the population size differences between those component areas, not just ignore, that's not a Union. Cameron was weak and May is plain hapless. Very worrying times so if people want to voice concerns and not just agree with a very small majority on the EU and a govt still with no coherent plan for life outside the EU 2.5 years after a vote, so be it. Ganging up on one poster who disagrees then getting the little anti Scot insults in makes unpleasant reading and reminds me why I try and avoid this poisonous thread and evermore so this forum. Just saying.


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## Hobbit (Jan 4, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			UK is not a sole country, it's a complex Union of 2 kingdoms, a principality and a province. Any leader of the so called Conservative and *Unionist *party should have had the wherewithall to manage a delicate Union accordingly but Mr Cameron chose not to and we find ourselves where we are, nationalism in England and Scotland on the rise, NI unionists being sold out by May after being bought by May. Read the last dozen posts and you'll see the real nationalism from the Farage fan club. Just repeatedly bleating that EU ref was a UK vote is true but oversimplifies something very complex that is the UK. There are plenty leavers up here too so having a pop at Scots as a reason for Brexit stalling is daft, yes we get outvoted every time so we have literally had no say as part of UK, we didn't vote for Camerons Tories in 2015 - they got 1 sole Tory MP in commons then and we didn't vote for Brexit and we were also assured in 2014 the only way to stay in the EU was to remain in the UK. We have our own voice withing the UK with a devolved parliament, a Union of countries should at lest listen to it's component areas, no matter the population size differences between those component areas, not just ignore, that's not a Union. Cameron was weak and May is plain hapless. Very worrying times so if people want to voice concerns and not just agree with a very small majority on the EU and a govt still with no coherent plan for life outside the EU 2.5 years after a vote, so be it. Ganging up on one poster who disagrees then getting the little anti Scot insults in makes unpleasant reading and reminds me why I try and avoid this poisonous thread and evermore so this forum. Just saying.

Click to expand...

I don't think that saying it was a UK wide vote oversimplifies it. Thats exactly what it was. I'd suggest you're overcomplicating it. There were no constituency, regional or country bloc votes. I'd say Sturgeon has made it something it isn't/wasn't, and in continually repeating it has ingrained that into people's psyche.


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## drdel (Jan 4, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			UK is not a sole country, it's a complex Union of 2 kingdoms, a principality and a province. Any leader of the so called Conservative and *Unionist *party should have had the wherewithall to manage a delicate Union accordingly but Mr Cameron chose not to and we find ourselves where we are, nationalism in England and Scotland on the rise, NI unionists being sold out by May after being bought by May. Read the last dozen posts and you'll see the real nationalism from the Farage fan club. Just repeatedly bleating that EU ref was a UK vote is true but oversimplifies something very complex that is the UK. There are plenty leavers up here too so having a pop at Scots as a reason for Brexit stalling is daft, yes we get outvoted every time so we have literally had no say as part of UK, we didn't vote for Camerons Tories in 2015 - they got 1 sole Tory MP in commons then and we didn't vote for Brexit and we were also assured in 2014 the only way to stay in the EU was to remain in the UK. We have our own voice withing the UK with a devolved parliament, a Union of countries should at lest listen to it's component areas, no matter the population size differences between those component areas, not just ignore, that's not a Union. Cameron was weak and May is plain hapless. Very worrying times so if people want to voice concerns and not just agree with a very small majority on the EU and a govt still with no coherent plan for life outside the EU 2.5 years after a vote, so be it. Ganging up on one poster who disagrees then getting the little anti Scot insults in makes unpleasant reading and reminds me why I try and avoid this poisonous thread and evermore so this forum. Just saying.

Click to expand...

I am aware of the UK's history!!

You're off on a tangent. I was not "ganging up" on DfT, my argument is that,  unless you believe an individual's vote should be 'worth' more by the mere fact of geography, a Referendum is based on the principle of a simple majority decision of those entitled to vote. Do you have a better equitable idea?

If you are of the belief that Scotland's voters are worth more than 1:1 I'd be interested as to why. As a country Scots were allowed and voted to stay within the Union - despite being a resident of the same Union I did not get that right!

I had to accept the Scottish independence result, perhaps you might accept that the relatively small population of Scotland voted *alongside* the rest of us in a 'fair' process.


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## Slime (Jan 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really, I would be interested to know what you blame them for...â€¦â€¦â€¦.not doing what we say is a non counter.
I think they have gone out of there way to help the UK, once they stopped laughing at Davis and Mays demands.
		
Click to expand...

Trying to integrate us into a federal super state and denying us our independance.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2019)

Slime said:



			Trying to integrate us into a federal super state and denying us our independance.
		
Click to expand...

?!? Are you and the UK not independent then ? Since when ?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			UK is not a sole country, it's a complex Union of 2 kingdoms, a principality and a province. Any leader of the so called Conservative and *Unionist *party should have had the wherewithall to manage a delicate Union accordingly but Mr Cameron chose not to and we find ourselves where we are, nationalism in England and Scotland on the rise, NI unionists being sold out by May after being bought by May. Read the last dozen posts and you'll see the real nationalism from the Farage fan club. Just repeatedly bleating that EU ref was a UK vote is true but oversimplifies something very complex that is the UK. There are plenty leavers up here too so having a pop at Scots as a reason for Brexit stalling is daft, yes we get outvoted every time so we have literally had no say as part of UK, we didn't vote for Camerons Tories in 2015 - they got 1 sole Tory MP in commons then and we didn't vote for Brexit and we were also assured in 2014 the only way to stay in the EU was to remain in the UK. We have our own voice withing the UK with a devolved parliament, a Union of countries should at lest listen to it's component areas, no matter the population size differences between those component areas, not just ignore, that's not a Union. Cameron was weak and May is plain hapless. Very worrying times so if people want to voice concerns and not just agree with a very small majority on the EU and a govt still with no coherent plan for life outside the EU 2.5 years after a vote, so be it. Ganging up on one poster who disagrees then getting the little anti Scot insults in makes unpleasant reading and reminds me why I try and avoid this poisonous thread and evermore so this forum. Just saying.

Click to expand...

Where are these anti Scots comments. Suggesting Sturgeon is using Brexit as a tool to support Scottish independence is not anti Scottish, that would be like you complaining about May and being called anti English.
Your argument on the way Scots voted in the referendum is flawed and if you clear your mind of prejudice then you will see it.

The poster you suggest is being ganged up on is a Soft Troll and continually posting anti English comments and trying to provoke people into arguments. Again I am amazed you can't see that.  Would you be so defensive if he was not Scottish?
Just saying


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## Slime (Jan 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			?!? Are you and the UK not independent then ? Since when ?
		
Click to expand...

The UK is not truly independant, how can it be when so many of our rules and regulations emanate from Brussels?


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			UK is not a sole country, it's a complex Union of 2 kingdoms, a principality and a province. Any leader of the so called Conservative and *Unionist *party should have had the wherewithall to manage a delicate Union accordingly but Mr Cameron chose not to and we find ourselves where we are, nationalism in England and Scotland on the rise, NI unionists being sold out by May after being bought by May. Read the last dozen posts and you'll see the real nationalism from the Farage fan club. Just repeatedly bleating that EU ref was a UK vote is true but oversimplifies something very complex that is the UK. There are plenty leavers up here too so having a pop at Scots as a reason for Brexit stalling is daft, yes we get outvoted every time so we have literally had no say as part of UK, we didn't vote for Camerons Tories in 2015 - they got 1 sole Tory MP in commons then and we didn't vote for Brexit and we were also assured in 2014 the only way to stay in the EU was to remain in the UK. We have our own voice withing the UK with a devolved parliament, a Union of countries should at lest listen to it's component areas, no matter the population size differences between those component areas, not just ignore, that's not a Union. Cameron was weak and May is plain hapless. Very worrying times so if people want to voice concerns and not just agree with a very small majority on the EU and a govt still with no coherent plan for life outside the EU 2.5 years after a vote, so be it. Ganging up on one poster who disagrees then getting the little anti Scot insults in makes unpleasant reading and reminds me why I try and avoid this poisonous thread and evermore so this forum. Just saying.

Click to expand...

Why do those that live above Hadrians wall have such little knowledge on the make of the U.K. Wales, like Scotland is a country in its own right. Even Doon, who claims to have Welsh blood in him can't get it right.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2019)

Slime said:



			The UK is not truly independant, how can it be when so many of our rules and regulations emanate from Brussels?
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean rules and regulations that protect us as human beings - yep happy with that ðŸ‘ unless there is some rule you arenâ€™t happy with ?

I certainly feel independent, have a voice , have a vote , we make our own laws to live by. 

Is any country really every â€œtruely independent â€œ - will always be some sort of regulation that all need to follow


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## Hobbit (Jan 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you mean rules and regulations that protect us as human beings - yep happy with that ðŸ‘ unless there is some rule you arenâ€™t happy with ?

I certainly feel independent, have a voice , have a vote , we make our own laws to live by.

Is any country really every â€œtruely independent â€œ - will always be some sort of regulation that all need to follow
		
Click to expand...

In the last 20 years there's been just over 4,200 EU laws implemented into UK law. The UK, your parliament, has opposed 13% to them = 530+. The UK government, on your behalf, opposed 530+, in the European court, and lost 82% of those cases = 434 laws implemented that the UK government, acting on your behalf, didn't want.

Number 1 daughter was part of a team of barristers that has written a number of the laws that are now on the statute books, e.g. car scrappage scheme & Post Office sell off. In each and every case she will have spent time in Brussels ensuring that the laws her team were writing complied with EU laws. No member state writes its own laws in isolation, i.e. they must comply with EU laws. So which is the higher court of law? Can the UK truly pass its own laws?

Its one thing complying with manufacturing laws and standards, the UK has been doing that for different standards around the world for donkey's years, e.g. manufacturing laws in America. You can't export to America if your product doesn't comply with U.S. laws. But there's are differences between criminal law, civil law and manufacturing laws. And its in criminal and civil laws were there's always been some areas of difference and conflict.

"Laws that protect you" Do you think that the EU courts are right to step in when your government, through the UK courts, wants to deport a terrorist, and the EU stops that deportation?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2019)

Slime said:



			Trying to integrate us into a federal super state and denying us our independance.
		
Click to expand...


Flippin Nora.
You could say exactly the same regarding the UK and Scotland.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Flippin Nora.
You could say exactly the same regarding the UK and Scotland.

Click to expand...

Oh dear! Scotland is in the UK, didnt you know that?  The Scots denied themselves independence by voting to stay.  Do you want a peoples vote on it now, ðŸ˜‚


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Spain considering dropping VAT for British tourists visiting the Canaries, post-Brexit.

"SPAIN TOURISM HOTSPOT COULD CANCEL TAX FOR BRITISH TOURISTS AMID BREXIT FEARS

BRITISH tourists could be exempt from paying â€˜VATâ€™ in the Canary Islands in a bid to battle Brexit.
President of the Spanish islands Fernando Clavijo said the measure would make the Canaries more competitive and help them achieve â€˜better resultsâ€™."
		
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That sounds like one of those good 'Yes Minister' ideas which will probably cost a lot of money to implement and become an administration nightmare,


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That sounds like one of those good 'Yes Minister' ideas which will probably cost a lot of money to implement and become an administration nightmare,
		
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It will lose a darn sight more money if Brit tourists stop going.


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## Slime (Jan 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you mean rules and regulations that protect us as human beings - yep happy with that ðŸ‘ unless there is some rule you arenâ€™t happy with ?

I certainly feel independent, have a voice , have a vote , we make our own laws to live by.

Is any country really every â€œtruely independent â€œ - will always be some sort of regulation that all need to follow
		
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Hobbit said:



			In the last 20 years there's been just over 4,200 EU laws implemented into UK law. The UK, your parliament, has opposed 13% to them = 530+. The UK government, on your behalf, opposed 530+, in the European court, and lost 82% of those cases = 434 laws implemented that the UK government, acting on your behalf, didn't want.

Number 1 daughter was part of a team of barristers that has written a number of the laws that are now on the statute books, e.g. car scrappage scheme & Post Office sell off. In each and every case she will have spent time in Brussels ensuring that the laws her team were writing complied with EU laws. No member state writes its own laws in isolation, i.e. they must comply with EU laws. So which is the higher court of law? Can the UK truly pass its own laws?

Its one thing complying with manufacturing laws and standards, the UK has been doing that for different standards around the world for donkey's years, e.g. manufacturing laws in America. You can't export to America if your product doesn't comply with U.S. laws. But there's are differences between criminal law, civil law and manufacturing laws. And its in criminal and civil laws were there's always been some areas of difference and conflict.

"Laws that protect you" Do you think that the EU courts are right to step in when your government, through the UK courts, wants to deport a terrorist, and the EU stops that deportation?
		
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Thanks Brian, you just saved me a bit of time.


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## Slime (Jan 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Flippin Nora.
You could say exactly the same regarding the UK and Scotland.

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Scotland voted against independence, the UK voted for it!
Polar opposites.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 5, 2019)

Short memory......I would imagine more than 5% Scots voted No because the Unionist parties told them it was the only way they could stay in the EU.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/img519.jpg
The Scottish media on the ball again.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In the last 20 years there's been just over 4,200 EU laws implemented into UK law. *The UK, your parliament, has opposed 13% to them = 530+. The UK government, on your behalf, opposed 530+, in the European court, and lost 82% of those cases = 434 laws implemented that the UK government, acting on your behalf, didn't want.*

Number 1 daughter was part of a team of barristers that has written a number of the laws that are now on the statute books, e.g. car scrappage scheme & Post Office sell off. In each and every case she will have spent time in Brussels ensuring that the laws her team were writing complied with EU laws. No member state writes its own laws in isolation, i.e. they must comply with EU laws. So which is the higher court of law? Can the UK truly pass its own laws?

Its one thing complying with manufacturing laws and standards, the UK has been doing that for different standards around the world for donkey's years, e.g. manufacturing laws in America. You can't export to America if your product doesn't comply with U.S. laws. But there's are differences between criminal law, civil law and manufacturing laws. And its in criminal and civil laws were there's always been some areas of difference and conflict.

"Laws that protect you" Do you think that the EU courts are right to step in when your government, through the UK courts, wants to deport a terrorist, and the EU stops that deportation?
		
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I can see why some people do not like that.  But for me it depends on what those laws are.  Are they laws that increase workers rights, increase environmental protection or are they laws that hand control of crucial domestic policy to the EU? 

I do not have a problem with the EU keeping whoever our current government is honest.  I do not have a problem with them curbing the excesses of ring wing free market capitalism or the more socialist left wing Corbyn politics.  Yes if it is clear the EU is becoming some kind of federated super state in which no individual countries have a say in any laws and they are imposing the Euro, siestas and liederhosen on us then by all means pull out.  The EU is a long way from perfect, but it is also a long way from controlling everything we do in the UK.  Despite what some newspapers say.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I can see why some people do not like that.  But for me it depends on what those laws are.  Are they laws that increase workers rights, increase environmental protection or are they laws that hand control of crucial domestic policy to the EU?

I do not have a problem with the EU keeping whoever our current government is honest.  I do not have a problem with them curbing the excesses of ring wing free market capitalism or the more socialist left wing Corbyn politics.  Yes if it is clear the EU is becoming some kind of federated super state in which no individual countries have a say in any laws and they are imposing the Euro, siestas and liederhosen on us then by all means pull out.  The EU is a long way from perfect, but it is also a long way from controlling everything we do in the UK.  Despite what some newspapers say.
		
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There's the thing 'big business' tells us how wonderful membership is yet will do everything it can to avoid it's 'obligations' ... Like applying workers rights and environmental protection...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I can see why some people do not like that.  But for me it depends on what those laws are.  Are they laws that increase workers rights, increase environmental protection or are they laws that hand control of crucial domestic policy to the EU?

I do not have a problem with the EU keeping whoever our current government is honest.  I do not have a problem with them curbing the excesses of ring wing free market capitalism or the more socialist left wing Corbyn politics.  Yes if it is clear the EU is becoming some kind of federated super state in which no individual countries have a say in any laws and they are imposing the Euro, siestas and liederhosen on us then by all means pull out.  The EU is a long way from perfect, but it is also a long way from controlling everything we do in the UK.  Despite what some newspapers say.
		
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So you want an outside agency to control the decisions made by our democratically elected governments. Unbelievable!


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## Old Skier (Jan 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh dear! Scotland is in the UK, didnt you know that?  The Scots denied themselves independence by voting to stay.  Do you want a peoples vote on it now, ðŸ˜‚
		
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Geography is not his strong point.


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## Old Skier (Jan 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Short memory......I would imagine more than 5% Scots voted No because the Unionist parties told them it was the only way they could stay in the EU.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/img519.jpg
The Scottish media on the ball again.

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Wings, the Scottish Media. No wonder your struggling with your posts.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I can see why some people do not like that.  But for me it depends on what those laws are.  Are they laws that increase workers rights, increase environmental protection or are they laws that hand control of crucial domestic policy to the EU?

I do not have a problem with the EU keeping whoever our current government is honest.  I do not have a problem with them curbing the excesses of ring wing free market capitalism or the more socialist left wing Corbyn politics.  Yes if it is clear the EU is becoming some kind of federated super state in which no individual countries have a say in any laws and they are imposing the Euro, siestas and liederhosen on us then by all means pull out.  The EU is a long way from perfect, but it is also a long way from controlling everything we do in the UK.  Despite what some newspapers say.
		
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Sums it up very well - I donâ€™t trust our governments in any shape or form and believe there are a lot of human rights and workers rights that have been brought in by the EU that our government wouldnâ€™t have bothered with. Itâ€™s the same with EU grants - lots of areas around the UK have been able to regenerate and flourish due to grants from the EU - the counter argument is â€œwell itâ€™s our money anywayâ€ - my question is why didnâ€™t our government spend the money there ? Why did it need EU grants all over the UK - mainly because the governments over the past couple of decades are so â€œLondon Focusedâ€


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## Old Skier (Jan 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sums it up very well - I donâ€™t trust our governments in any shape or form and believe there are a lot of human rights and workers rights that have been brought in by the EU that our government wouldnâ€™t have bothered with. Itâ€™s the same with EU grants - lots of areas around the UK have been able to regenerate and flourish due to grants from the EU - the counter argument is â€œwell itâ€™s our money anywayâ€ - my question is why didnâ€™t our government spend the money there ? Why did it need EU grants all over the UK - mainly because the governments over the past couple of decades are so â€œLondon Focusedâ€
		
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When grants are given by the EU they have to be matched by the government of the country being given the grant so our government has assisted by, a. Being an nett contributor to the EU and b. By matching any grant given by he EU so your argument seems a little screwed.


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## drdel (Jan 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sums it up very well - I donâ€™t trust our governments in any shape or form and believe there are a lot of human rights and workers rights that have been brought in by the EU that our government wouldnâ€™t have bothered with. Itâ€™s the same with EU grants - lots of areas around the UK have been able to regenerate and flourish due to grants from the EU - the counter argument is â€œwell itâ€™s our money anywayâ€ - my question is why didnâ€™t our government spend the money there ? Why did it need EU grants all over the UK - mainly because the governments over the past couple of decades are so â€œLondon Focusedâ€
		
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IMO one of the biggest issues in the general area of employment and 'human rights' is zero hours contracts: yet I don't see the wonderful EU doing anything about it and as an UK citizen I'm not sure that what I and millions of other UK people think will have any influence on Brussels.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO one of the biggest issues in the general area of employment and 'human rights' is zero hours contracts: yet I don't see the wonderful EU doing anything about it and as an UK citizen I'm not sure that what I and millions of other UK people think will have any influence on Brussels.
		
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Sorry but what do zero hour contracts have to do with the EU in the UK ? the government if they wish can outlaw them as have many countries in the EU ? The EU I understand have recommended changes to protect people on zero hour contracts but still needs the UK government to do something about them.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but what do zero hour contracts have to do with the EU in the UK ? the government if they wish can outlaw them as have many countries in the EU ? The EU I understand have recommended changes to protect people on zero hour contracts but still needs the UK government to do something about them.
		
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Or, perhaps 'big business' could buck the trend and do the right thing for its workforce...


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sums it up very well - I donâ€™t trust our governments in any shape or form and believe there are a lot of human rights and workers rights that have been brought in by the EU that our government wouldnâ€™t have bothered with. Itâ€™s the same with EU grants - lots of areas around the UK have been able to regenerate and flourish due to grants from the EU - the counter argument is â€œwell itâ€™s our money anywayâ€ - my question is why didnâ€™t our government spend the money there ? Why did it need EU grants all over the UK - mainly because the governments over the past couple of decades are so â€œLondon Focusedâ€
		
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The electorate are supposed to keep the government honest. And the governments have to be (reasonably) honest to win the votes they need to continue to govern. All this excesses of governments is rubbish. First of all people chose that government based on a political desire for a particular path/manifesto, and if the government doesn't follow through on its promises they feel it at the next election. At one time you might end up with a right wing government, and at other times a left wing government. If you don't like the policies those governments bring in, just remember it was chosen by the British people. You should at least respect the democracy that led to the election of that government.

But as an aside, who keeps the EU honest? The UN? The UK electorate don't keep the EU honest, even in the EU elections. Look at how many MEP's each country has, e.g. Germany has 99 whereas somewhere like Ireland has 12. There's 171 MEP's between Germany and France, and I wonder why so many people say Germany and France run the EU. Well that's democratic isn't it! Personally I'd like to see one country one vote but can you see Germany and France giving up the control they have.

EU grants getting spent in poor areas...? Get yourself up to the northeast of England and ask the question of the 75,000 British Steel and ICI workers, on Teesside alone, what the EU did for them whilst it was giving grants to move manufacturing to the Netherlands. Have a look at how much money made its way to the NE for regeneration. The UK has to match the EU grant, which currently is Â£1.5 billion.

The EU as a trading bloc, yes. As a governing body over the UK, no way! On the one hand you've just posted that the UK can make its own laws etc yet in the post above, in support of HK's post, you say you want governance from the EU because you don't trust the UK's governments. You seem confused...


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2019)

I think I'll become an MEP.
I will get Â£92,460 annual salary plus pension
plus
Â£47,436 annual general expenses (NO RECEIPTS REQUIRED*)
plus
Free first class travel to and from Brussels/Strasbourg
plus
Â£280 daily while working in Brussels/Strasbourg (Â£30,000 annual average)

Total
Â£170,000 (not counting first class travel expenses or Â£256,000 to pay for staff)

There are 751 MEPS

Total cost per MEP.... *Eu 2BN EACH*

And who pays for their gravy train  salaries?

*Calls to make expenses more transparent were rejected by the EU court.......no surprise there.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/25/mep-expenses-eu-court-ruling

Having said that, apparently, they do work hard........


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The electorate are supposed to keep the government honest. And the governments have to be (reasonably) honest to win the votes they need to continue to govern. All this excesses of governments is rubbish. First of all people chose that government based on a political desire for a particular path/manifesto, and if the government doesn't follow through on its promises they feel it at the next election. At one time you might end up with a right wing government, and at other times a left wing government. If you don't like the policies those governments bring in, just remember it was chosen by the British people. You should at least respect the democracy that led to the election of that government.

But as an aside, who keeps the EU honest? The UN? The UK electorate don't keep the EU honest, even in the EU elections. Look at how many MEP's each country has, e.g. Germany has 99 whereas somewhere like Ireland has 12. There's 171 MEP's between Germany and France, and I wonder why so many people say Germany and France run the EU. Well that's democratic isn't it! Personally I'd like to see one country one vote but can you see Germany and France giving up the control they have.

EU grants getting spent in poor areas...? Get yourself up to the northeast of England and ask the question of the 75,000 British Steel and ICI workers, on Teesside alone, what the EU did for them whilst it was giving grants to move manufacturing to the Netherlands. Have a look at how much money made its way to the NE for regeneration. The UK has to match the EU grant, which currently is Â£1.5 billion.

The EU as a trading bloc, yes. As a governing body over the UK, no way! *On the one hand you've just posted that the UK can make its own laws etc yet in the post above, in support of HK's post, you say you want governance from the EU because you don't trust the UK's governments. You seem confused*...
		
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I'd like the best of both worlds.  In that we have a lot of flexibility to control how the majority of society operates but, as part of being a member of the trading bloc, we also adhere to some of the rules that apply across the whole trading bloc.  Some may argue that is what we have now and we are throwing it away.  Some others may feel that we have already lost control and can do better on our own. We'll see.....

Also as an aside I'd also argue the greatest threat to democracy is not another referendum but the manipulation of news and information by other organisations and countries with a vested interest in the outcome.  It is probably at a pretty low level at the moment, but unless it is checked it could well mean referendums or elections are based on little factual information at all.  But that's probably another conversation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The electorate are supposed to keep the government honest. And the governments have to be (reasonably) honest to win the votes they need to continue to govern. All this excesses of governments is rubbish. First of all people chose that government based on a political desire for a particular path/manifesto, and if the government doesn't follow through on its promises they feel it at the next election. At one time you might end up with a right wing government, and at other times a left wing government. If you don't like the policies those governments bring in, just remember it was chosen by the British people. You should at least respect the democracy that led to the election of that government.

But as an aside, who keeps the EU honest? The UN? The UK electorate don't keep the EU honest, even in the EU elections. Look at how many MEP's each country has, e.g. Germany has 99 whereas somewhere like Ireland has 12. There's 171 MEP's between Germany and France, and I wonder why so many people say Germany and France run the EU. Well that's democratic isn't it! Personally I'd like to see one country one vote but can you see Germany and France giving up the control they have.

EU grants getting spent in poor areas...? Get yourself up to the northeast of England and ask the question of the 75,000 British Steel and ICI workers, on Teesside alone, what the EU did for them whilst it was giving grants to move manufacturing to the Netherlands. Have a look at how much money made its way to the NE for regeneration. The UK has to match the EU grant, which currently is Â£1.5 billion.

The EU as a trading bloc, yes. As a governing body over the UK, no way! On the one hand you've just posted that the UK can make its own laws etc yet in the post above, in support of HK's post, you say you want governance from the EU because you don't trust the UK's governments. You seem confused...
		
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Not confused at all - we do and we can create our own laws , is the UK constitution not create by ourselves ? Our government can ammend laws etc that we abide by etc ? Is that not right 

And then there are rules and regulations - Working rights , environmental rights etc with the framework all detailed by the EU but each country has a say and the MEPâ€™s involved etc - 

Is it not two seperate frameworks ? Laws and rights ? 

We are part of a trade bloc so must adhere to the rights of the workers within that trade bloc but the laws each person must life by are set down by the UK ? Yes ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Or, perhaps 'big business' could buck the trend and do the right thing for its workforce...
		
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They could but again thatâ€™s not the fault of the EU - fingers should be pointed at the people that profit from zero hour contracts and the people that have the right to change to outlaw them


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not confused at all - we do and we can create our own laws , is the UK constitution not create by ourselves ? Our government can ammend laws etc that we abide by etc ? Is that not right

And then there are rules and regulations - Working rights , environmental rights etc with the framework all detailed by the EU but each country has a say and the MEPâ€™s involved etc -

Is it not two seperate frameworks ? Laws and rights ?

We are part of a trade bloc so must adhere to the rights of the workers within that trade bloc but the laws each person must life by are set down by the UK ? Yes ?
		
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Perhaps you could show me a copy of the UK constitution you speak of.... I'd be really keen to see the document/pdf/photo copy/screenshot.... you do know the UK doesn't have a written constitution don't you? Many people wish it did have a constitution by the way but I look forward to you posting up a copy of the *UN*written constitution.

And its not two separate frameworks. But please post up a link showing its only laws and rights... oh, and directives... guess that makes 3. And environmental rights... is that rights or laws? They are 2 very different things. Are you getting confused again?

"We are part of a trade bloc so must adhere to the rights of the workers..." You do realise the UK still has a veto on workers rights, one of the few vetos Blair didn't give up. Maybe you could explain how the UK adheres to the EU working time directive.............. for which it exercised its right of veto.

"We can create our own laws..." Perhaps you can explain the first paragraph in post # 3498. Each member state in the EU writes its own laws, but in a lot of cases the root law is an EU law, or its a 'local' law that has passed a compliance test with the EU. We may write some of our laws but not without reference to the EU laws. So to repeat the question in post #3498, which is the higher court?

And I refer you to the last sentence/question in that post. Any chance of an answer?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*Perhaps you could show me a copy of the UK constitution you speak of*.... I'd be really keen to see the document/pdf/photo copy/screenshot.... you do know the UK doesn't have a written constitution don't you? Many people wish it did have a constitution by the way but I look forward to you posting up a copy of the *UN*written constitution.

And its not two separate frameworks. But please post up a link showing its only laws and rights... oh, and directives... guess that makes 3. And environmental rights... is that rights or laws? They are 2 very different things. Are you getting confused again?

"We are part of a trade bloc so must adhere to the rights of the workers..." You do realise the UK still has a veto on workers rights, one of the few vetos Blair didn't give up. Maybe you could explain how the UK adheres to the EU working time directive.............. for which it exercised its right of veto.

"We can create our own laws..." Perhaps you can explain the first paragraph in post # 3498. Each member state in the EU writes its own laws, but in a lot of cases the root law is an EU law, or its a 'local' law that has passed a compliance test with the EU. We may write some of our laws but not without reference to the EU laws. So to repeat the question in post #3498, which is the higher court?

And I refer you to the last sentence/question in that post. Any chance of an answer?
		
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I'd recommend people to listen to this podcast with regards to our constitution. Yes we do not have one written document, but then again there are many part of it, some of them not unwritten  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096j4m2


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Perhaps you could show me a copy of the UK constitution you speak of.... I'd be really keen to see the document/pdf/photo copy/screenshot.... you do know the UK doesn't have a written constitution don't you? Many people wish it did have a constitution by the way but I look forward to you posting up a copy of the *UN*written constitution.
..,.
		
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Where in LPP's post did he state that UK's constitution was *written?*
Because, as you correctly point out, the UK constitution is a combination of several sources. The ultimate arbiter of UK constitutional matters is The Supreme Court. That very fact indicates that there is some body of work that constitutes a constitution, even if not a written one.

The UK is not the only country without one either. A couple of others seem to get by without one. And one of the dangers of written constitution is the gradual degredation/change of the meaning of text over time - the 2nd amendment of the US Consrtitution being the most visible/contentious example.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sums it up very well - I donâ€™t trust our governments in any shape or form and believe there are a lot of human rights and workers rights that have been brought in by the EU that our government wouldnâ€™t have bothered with. Itâ€™s the same with EU grants - lots of areas around the UK have been able to regenerate and flourish due to grants from the EU - the counter argument is â€œwell itâ€™s our money anywayâ€ - my question is why didnâ€™t our government spend the money there ? Why did it need EU grants all over the UK - mainly because the governments over the past couple of decades are so â€œLondon Focusedâ€
		
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You seem to be struggling with the economics.  If we are a net contributor we dont get any money we have not paid in ourselves. We also had to fund 50% of the project.  How on earth could you expect the UK to fund these projects when they were paying money in to the EU for project funding. Should all that go to other countries ?
We have general elections at least every 5 years and can decide what type of party governs us, why would you prefer a body that we dont elect to control things like workers and human rights. Our country has some of the best human and worker rights in the world and not just due to the EU?  Your comments may be applicable to many eastern European and even some western Europeans who have produced some of the most evil administrations.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem to be struggling with the economics.  If we are a net contributor we dont get any money we have not paid in ourselves. We also had to fund 50% of the project.  How on earth could you expect the UK to fund these projects when they were paying money in to the EU for project funding. Should all that go to other countries ?
We have general elections at least every 5 years and can decide what type of party governs us, why would you prefer a body *that we dont elect* to control things like workers and human rights. Our country has some of the best human and worker rights in the world and not just due to the EU?  Your comments may be applicable to many eastern European and even some western Europeans who have produced some of the most evil administrations.
		
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As ever, it's no so simple as the Daily Mail headlines make it  http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/ https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-brussels-bureaucrats/

And as for Western European evil administrations then the Thatcher government was in the 80s, time to let it go.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem to be struggling with the economics.  If we are a net contributor we dont get any money we have not paid in ourselves. We also had to fund 50% of the project.  How on earth could you expect the UK to fund these projects when they were paying money in to the EU for project funding. Should all that go to other countries ?
We have general elections at least every 5 years and can decide what type of party governs us, why would you prefer a body that we dont elect to control things like workers and human rights. Our country has some of the best human and worker rights in the world and not just due to the EU?  Your comments may be applicable to many eastern European and even some western Europeans who have produced some of the most evil administrations.
		
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Do you mean like thatchers Tories in the 80â€™s ripping the heart out of the industry and being happy to let northern areas rot.

Can you tell me why it took many areas in tbe UK for them to apply for EU grants to get much needed funding to regenerate areas - our government have no problems finding billions to get people into London 8 mins quicker

And my life has been fine being part of the EU and believe their rights for workers and human rights have been very good for us


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## MegaSteve (Jan 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you tell me why it took many areas in tbe UK for them to apply for EU grants to get much needed funding to regenerate areas - our government have no problems finding billions to get people into London 8 mins quicker
		
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Have you taken over from Doom and blame Londoners for everything?


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## harpo_72 (Jan 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you mean like thatchers Tories in the 80â€™s ripping the heart out of the industry and being happy to let northern areas rot.

Can you tell me why it took many areas in tbe UK for them to apply for EU grants to get much needed funding to regenerate areas - our government have no problems finding billions to get people into London 8 mins quicker

And my life has been fine being part of the EU and believe their rights for workers and human rights have been very good for us
		
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The point as you have already stated which these muppets can not grasp is the EU re distributes without political motivations... unlike any of  our governments red or blue.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Have you taken over from Doom and blame Londoners for everything?
		
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Sorry but where was I blamin â€œLondonersâ€ ?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			As ever, it's no so simple as the Daily Mail headlines make it  http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/ https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-brussels-bureaucrats/

*And as for Western European evil administrations then the Thatcher government was in the 80s, time to let it go*.....
		
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Nice one Rik!ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The point as you have already stated which these muppets can not grasp is the EU re distributes without political motivations... unlike any of  our governments red or blue.
		
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And you accuse me of insults.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			As ever, it's no so simple as the Daily Mail headlines make it  http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/ https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-brussels-bureaucrats/

And as for Western European evil administrations then the Thatcher government was in the 80s, time to let it go.....
		
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I was referring to the evil administrations of Germany, Spain and Italy within a few generations.
Are you accusing me of being influenced by the Daily Mail? Im talking about who finances our EU grants and if you believe I am wrong in my assumptions then prove it rather than using sill editorial links.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And you accuse me of insults.
		
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Not an insult .. statement of fact until you behave otherwise ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you mean like thatchers Tories in the 80â€™s ripping the heart out of the industry and being happy to let northern areas rot.

Can you tell me why it took many areas in tbe UK for them to apply for EU grants to get much needed funding to regenerate areas - our government have no problems finding billions to get people into London 8 mins quicker

And my life has been fine being part of the EU and believe their rights for workers and human rights have been very good for us
		
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Again you show that you have a poor grasp of business and ecconomics.
You Blame Thatchers Tories for ripping the heart out of industry and being happy for the  Northern areas to rot.  How exactly dod that work then, did Thatcher and her Tory mates march like stormtroopers into factories and shipyards with sledge hammers and  crowbars in their hands then set to ripping the heart out of them.  I think that's a rather emotional and unbalanced view on reality, these industries were inefficient and hemeraging money, they had not modernised and invested in new technology and production techniques, many were producing products of poor standard and were plagued by the trade unions commitig industrial hari kari and following a policy of trying to pull down the Government. Your precious EU was using the grants you love so much to encourage new production facilities in other countries such that they could produce the products the UK were failing with.  I guess you were a child during this period and didnt experience the blackouts and three day working weeks due to union militancy, how the rubbish was festering in the streets and the dead being unburied.

Dont lecture me on Maggie Thatcher ripping the heart out of industries, do you honestly believe its the role of government to bail out all inefficient industries, even when doing so will simply hemerage money that should be spent on the NHS, social services, housing, defence. Your mates in the EU never came galloping in with their money tree grants did they.

If you want a government that will prop up such industry and create a socialist utopia then vote for Corbyn and his mates, no doubt they will magic up all you desire.


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## IanM (Jan 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The point as you have already stated which these muppets can not grasp is the EU re distributes without political motivations... unlike any of  our governments red or blue.
		
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You need to be more involved in getting EU funding...youâ€™d find it interesting

And , there is no EU funding...itâ€™s your taxes, net of deductions


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not an insult .. statement of fact until you behave otherwise ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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Hmm, thought you were a hypocrite and thats not an insult.  You are incapable of making a reasoned argument or defending a challenge when you post very questionable information.  If you can stand up to a big boys debate then please bring it on and drop the assenous sniping.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Hmm, thought you were a hypocrite and thats not an insult ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Congratulations on the spelling but your still clueless regards the meaning.ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Congratulations on the spelling but your still clueless regards the meaning.ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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Can't help yourself.

You call out others for using insults and then use insults yourself. Seems hypocritical to me.


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## IanM (Jan 6, 2019)

Changing the subject... anyone notice the trend among ultra-remainers from - 

â€œAn EU army is a fantasyâ€. 

To - 

â€œWe could veto an EU army if we wanted toâ€. 

To - 

â€œWhatâ€™s wrong with an EU army?â€  

To - 

â€œAn EU army is a necessityâ€. 

ðŸ¤¨


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## harpo_72 (Jan 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			Changing the subject... anyone notice the trend among ultra-remainers from -

â€œAn EU army is a fantasyâ€.

To -

â€œWe could veto an EU army if we wanted toâ€.

To -

â€œWhatâ€™s wrong with an EU army?â€ 

To -

â€œAn EU army is a necessityâ€.

ðŸ¤¨
		
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No... must be a figment of your newspapers imagination... has Kim got her kit off again?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 6, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Have you taken over from Doom and blame Londoners for everything?
		
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I do not think anyone is actually blaming Londeners.
More like blaming successive UK's governments for unfair distribution of the UK's wealth to SE England.


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## Hobbit (Jan 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			Changing the subject... anyone notice the trend among ultra-remainers from -

â€œAn EU army is a fantasyâ€.

To -

â€œWe could veto an EU army if we wanted toâ€.

To -

â€œWhatâ€™s wrong with an EU army?â€ 

To -

â€œAn EU army is a necessityâ€.

ðŸ¤¨
		
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I do find it incredibly sad that the Union that was set up not long after WW2 and included the tag of furthering peace, and won the Nobel prize for peace in 2012, sees the need for an army. Itâ€™s a betrayal of one of its founding concepts.

That aside, Iâ€™m inclined to laugh out loud at the thought of the EU wanting an army. When you consider that the EU has been deploying armed forces around the world for decades. Surely, semantics aside, the EU already has an army.

A quick look at the EU Defence and Security policy, and where armed forces have been deployed... EU citizens have been sleepwalked into it for decades.

If a country has a trade agreement with the EU it can ask for military support for defence. Hell, thereâ€™s even EU troops in Indonesia at present.


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## IanM (Jan 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No... must be a figment of your newspapers imagination... has Kim got her kit off again?
		
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I wish the old thread was still here to show you   This one probably stated at point two! 

But liking the â€œthe only argument Iâ€™ve got is to blame a newspaper he doesnâ€™t read!â€  That only leaves you calling me racist and uneducated.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The point as you have already stated which these muppets can not grasp is the EU re distributes without political motivations... unlike any of  our governments red or blue.
		
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A number of remainers have based their criticism of the Brexit vote on the perceived stupidity of many voters. If only, some wail, these disgusting plebs were as clever as me...... then we would still be in the EU!


Basically, some peopleâ€™s idea of democracy appears to be â€œeveryone is entitled to a vote so long as they agree with me because Iâ€™m so much cleverer than the average lumpen prole.â€


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## harpo_72 (Jan 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			I wish the old thread was still here to show you   This one probably stated at point two!

But liking the â€œthe only argument Iâ€™ve got is to blame a newspaper he doesnâ€™t read!â€  That only leaves you calling me racist and uneducated.
		
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I indicated the source of your comments I did not comment on whether your a racist or uneducated ... you jumped to that conclusion ðŸ˜‚


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## harpo_72 (Jan 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			A number of remainers have based their criticism of the Brexit vote on the perceived stupidity of many voters. If only, some wail, these disgusting plebs were as clever as me...... then we would still be in the EU!


Basically, some peopleâ€™s idea of democracy appears to be â€œeveryone is entitled to a vote so long as they agree with me because Iâ€™m so much cleverer than the average lumpen prole.â€
		
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To be honest your see a number of leavers on here try and make that argument about the remainers... ( some pretty self superior posts, and emojis . which is now being returned ðŸ¤£) but as time goes by and the arguments try to get bottomed out it becomes evident that there are no credible answers and a generic response of â€œyour scaremongeringâ€.. is a sign of not having a capacity to argue a point.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No... must be a figment of your newspapers imagination... has Kim got her kit off again?
		
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Another insult.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			To be honest your see a number of leavers on here try and make that argument about the remainers... ( some pretty self superior posts, and emojis . which is now being returned ðŸ¤£) but as time goes by and the arguments try to get bottomed out it becomes evident that there are no credible answers and a generic response of â€œyour scaremongeringâ€.. is a sign of not having a capacity to argue a point.
		
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And another insult.


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## IanM (Jan 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I indicated the source of your comments I did not comment on whether your a racist or uneducated ... you jumped to that conclusion ðŸ˜‚
		
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Read what is there....  I didnâ€™t say you did, but it traditionally follows.  If you disagree, it has to be from the Mail eh?

And are you actually claiming that when an impending a eu army was mentioned in the Referendum, none of the themes Iâ€™ve mentioned were in the Remain Press...heck weâ€™ve had most of them on here


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2019)

Pants said:



			Read and understand what is written Doon.  My first paragraph wasn't a question.  It was a statement which was proven true by your response.  All I have been asking for is for remainers to provide some facts relating mid/long term effects of REMAINING - not speculation of what MIGHT/COULD happen when we leave.  I want to hear positives about remaining - not negatives about leaving.

Re the rest of your waffle, Hobbit basically covered what you wrote in 12 words.

Do you want a deep fried battered Mars Bar with that chip? 

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Long term effects of remaining? Ploughing billions of our hard earned pounds into propping up bankrupt countries. No thanks!


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## MegaSteve (Jan 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I do not think anyone is actually blaming Londeners.
More like blaming successive UK's governments for unfair distribution of the UK's wealth to SE England.
		
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Well, your posts often come across as all the blame lies with Londoners... 

'Ordinary' Londoners have faired badly during the period of our EU membership... Businesses have used policies and mechanisms put in place by Brussels to facilitate good jobs to be moved elsewhere... To be replaced with minimum wage (zero hours) work in hospitality, retail, warehousing and distribution... 

Guessing you've never had to watch good mates go down the road then see the kit and caboodle they operated being containerised up and shipped    abroad for others to benefit...


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## MegaSteve (Jan 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And my life has been fine being part of the EU and believe their rights for workers and human rights have been very good for us
		
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Unfortunately many are being denied these 'rights' by the same businesses that tell us how good membership is for us... For example the plumber fella that funded Ms Miller...

And, 'rights' are not 'gifted' by goverment/bureaucracy they've generally had to be fought for by groups like the 'Dagenham ladies'...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 6, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, your posts often come across as all the blame lies with Londoners...

'Ordinary' Londoners have faired badly during the period of our EU membership... Businesses have used policies and mechanisms put in place by Brussels to facilitate good jobs to be moved elsewhere... To be replaced with minimum wage (zero hours) work in hospitality, retail, warehousing and distribution...

Guessing you've never had to watch good mates go down the road then see the kit and caboodle they operated being containerised up and shipped    abroad for others to benefit...
		
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Is that not the same point, a balance.....Scotland has faired well under the EU funding, SE England hasn't, boo hoo.
 Do you not think that the EU system is built around lifting up the poorer regions/countries towards the equal status of the richer regions/countries..

Thanks to the Tories beef with the GLC leading to the introduction of competitive tendering to local authorities I was responsible for writing a tender so 40+ staff would stay in a job that they all did wonderfully well. So well that they made an average of around Â£250,000 a year profit over 10/12 years for my council. Does that count on the workers sympathy scale.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			Read what is there....  I didnâ€™t say you did, but it traditionally follows.  If you disagree, it has to be from the Mail eh?

And are you actually claiming that when an impending a eu army was mentioned in the Referendum, none of the themes Iâ€™ve mentioned were in the Remain Press...heck weâ€™ve had most of them on here
		
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I for one would love to know which English newspapers are in the 'remain' press and which are in the leave camp.

Is it as bad as Scotland where all but one newspaper is 'staunchly' anti independent whereas nearly half the country are pro.
[mind you only the auld yins read papers anymore ]


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## Fade and Die (Jan 6, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, your posts often come across as all the blame lies with Londoners...

'Ordinary' Londoners have faired badly during the period of our EU membership... Businesses have used policies and mechanisms put in place by Brussels to facilitate good jobs to be moved elsewhere... To be replaced with minimum wage (zero hours) work in hospitality, retail, warehousing and distribution...

Guessing you've never had to watch good mates go down the road then see the kit and caboodle they operated being containerised up and shipped    abroad for others to benefit...
		
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Add to that the virtual wiping out of the construction industry as a job option for English lads (and lasses) in the SE because of a massive influx of cheap eu labour.... Also canâ€™t remember the last time I met an English delivery driver or taxi driver.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is that not the same point, a balance.....Scotland has faired well under the EU funding, SE England hasn't, boo hoo.
 Do you not think that the EU system is built around lifting up the poorer regions/countries towards the equal status of the richer regions/countries..

Thanks to the Tories beef with the GLC leading to the introduction of competitive tendering to local authorities I was responsible for writing a tender so 40+ staff would stay in a job that they all did wonderfully well. So well that they made an average of around Â£250,000 a year profit over 10/12 years for my council. Does that count on the workers sympathy scale.

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My point is not about funding but the stripping of employment opportunities for 'ordinary' Londoners... Many industrial areas of the UK have not fared well under social engineering policies from Brussels.. No surprise it was many of those regions that voted leave... Particularly those that didn't benefit from the additional funding Scotland received you boast about...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Add to that the virtual wiping out of the construction industry as a job option for English lads (and lasses) in the SE because of a massive influx of cheap eu labour.... Also canâ€™t remember the last time I met an English delivery driver or taxi driver.
		
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Scots construction industry seems to be booming, I think they are having trouble finding skilled staff. In fact I think most industries are having trouble finding staff thanks to UKIP and their buddies.
Perhaps the English lads and lassies need to get on their bikes. Added benefits are much cheaper housing, probable difficulty would be a disparity on wages, I wonder why?


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## harpo_72 (Jan 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And another insult.
		
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Every post you have on both Brexit threads was and is an insult, you were asked politely to refrain but you carried on. Now you think your being insulted when your comments are met with the emojis and same manner of response. 

What goes around,  comes around. Be impolite, get rudeness in return. Be dismissive, get dismissed. Question someoneâ€™s intellect , get called a fool .... 

ðŸ˜´


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## MegaSteve (Jan 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots construction industry seems to be booming, I think they are having trouble finding skilled staff. In fact I think most industries are having trouble finding staff thanks to UKIP and their buddies.
Perhaps the English lads and lassies need to get on their bikes. Added benefits are much cheaper housing, probable difficulty would be a disparity on wages, I wonder why?
		
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You need to be a good dog and drop the UKIP bone... The EU supporting businesses need to shoulder much of the blame for lack of skilled labour.. As they have, for too long, taken the easy option of importing workers rather than invest in training 'local' folk.. However, I am prepared to admit, they now seem to be reversing this stance... Which should be seen as a positive for Brexit... For too long second and third generation kids of our commonwealth communities have been placed on ignore by employers...


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## Fade and Die (Jan 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots construction industry seems to be booming, I think they are having trouble finding skilled staff. In fact I think most industries are having trouble finding staff thanks to UKIP and their buddies.
Perhaps the English lads and lassies need to get on their bikes. Added benefits are much cheaper housing, probable difficulty would be a disparity on wages, I wonder why?
		
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I think you miss the point (deliberately?) London and the south east is saturated with cheap European labour pushing wages down. That is the real life experience of people in the SE and I believe the main reason we voted out. You may be lucky enough not to have had your way of life changed by the migrants but you are in the minority. I was in Carlisle last week, was surprised to see Romanians selling the big issue by the station and in the shopping centre.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 6, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			You need to be a good dog and drop the UKIP bone... The EU supporting businesses need to shoulder much of the blame for lack of skilled labour.. As they have, for too long, taken the easy option of importing workers rather than invest in training 'local' folk.. However, I am prepared to admit, they now seem to be reversing this stance... Which should be seen as a positive for Brexit... For too long second and third generation kids of our commonwealth communities have been placed on ignore by employers...
		
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You are missing the point.
What if there is no 'local folk' to employ, for example hospitality industry in the Highlands, fruit picking in Angus or even caddies at Turnberry.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are missing the point.
What if there is no 'local folk' to employ, for example hospitality industry in the Highlands, fruit picking in Angus or even caddies at Turnberry.
		
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This attitude amazes me! Why canâ€™t businesses do what they used to do to attract staff..... pay better wages. People openly say they support membership of the EU because it maintains the supply of low-wage workers to the UK. In other words, to make their own lives easier, they want to exploit the less wealthy countries of Eastern Europe. In any other context this would be denounced as racist.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are missing the point.
What if there is no 'local folk' to employ, for example hospitality industry in the Highlands, fruit picking in Angus or even caddies at Turnberry.
		
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We, seem to have moved from 'good' jobs in construction to hospitality and fruit picking... Don't the 'local folk' in Scotland want that work?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Again you show that you have a poor grasp of business and ecconomics.
You Blame Thatchers Tories for ripping the heart out of industry and being happy for the  Northern areas to rot.  How exactly dod that work then, did Thatcher and her Tory mates march like stormtroopers into factories and shipyards with sledge hammers and  crowbars in their hands then set to ripping the heart out of them.  I think that's a rather emotional and unbalanced view on reality, these industries were inefficient and hemeraging money, they had not modernised and invested in new technology and production techniques, many were producing products of poor standard and were plagued by the trade unions commitig industrial hari kari and following a policy of trying to pull down the Government. Your precious EU was using the grants you love so much to encourage new production facilities in other countries such that they could produce the products the UK were failing with.  I guess you were a child during this period and didnt experience the blackouts and three day working weeks due to union militancy, how the rubbish was festering in the streets and the dead being unburied.

Dont lecture me on Maggie Thatcher ripping the heart out of industries, do you honestly believe its the role of government to bail out all inefficient industries, even when doing so will simply hemerage money that should be spent on the NHS, social services, housing, defence. Your mates in the EU never came galloping in with their money tree grants did they.

If you want a government that will prop up such industry and create a socialist utopia then vote for Corbyn and his mates, no doubt they will magic up all you desire.
		
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Well you can tell you are certainly a Tory boy

So Iâ€™ll ask again - before EU grants why were certain areas given no funding to regenerate whilst a lot of funding was given to build London to be a â€œfinancial hubâ€ and if we are talking wasting money are the current Tory boys not wasting Â£56billion building something that has no use to 90% of the country


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## Hobbit (Jan 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd recommend people to listen to this podcast with regards to our constitution. Yes we do not have one written document, but then again there are many part of it, some of them not unwritten  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096j4m2

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Nick, I've not watched the podcast but I'm well aware of our uncodified constitution, the term referring to the fact that our unwritten constitution is drawn from various areas of British law. As a document pertaining to a constitution its often considered that the Magna Carta is the overriding document.


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## Hobbit (Jan 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well you can tell you are certainly a Tory boy

So Iâ€™ll ask again - before EU grants why were certain areas given no funding to regenerate whilst a lot of funding was given to build London to be a â€œfinancial hubâ€ and if we are talking wasting money are the current Tory boys not wasting Â£56billion building something that has no use to 90% of the country
		
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And any chance of you answering my questions I posed to you Phil?

Oh, and by the way, the Tories didn't provide any funding for the "financial hub." The money came from a Canadian business tycoon, supported by tax breaks. No money left the Treasury for the project to expand the City of London. Considering the tax revenue from the City of London dwarfs that of any other industry in the UK it looks like the Tories made a very astute decision in creating a non-cost initiative that has brought in billions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And any chance of you answering my questions I posed to you Phil?

Oh, and by the way, the Tories didn't provide any funding for the "financial hub." The money came from a Canadian business tycoon, supported by tax breaks. No money left the Treasury for the project to expand the City of London. Considering the tax revenue from the City of London dwarfs that of any other industry in the UK it looks like the Tories made a very astute decision in creating a non-cost initiative that has brought in billions.
		
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Sorry which question - i start to shut off with the long winded posts at the end of the day tbh and the arrogance of the thread and the way people dismiss others based on how they voted is quite poor 

Itâ€™s quite funny one person complaining about being insulted yet has insulted many people just because they want to remain in the EU. 

And itâ€™s great that London is doing so well - truely happy for all those EU citizens in London taking advantage of the financial hub - I guess thatâ€™s the same financial hub that helped cause the recession that millions are still paying for.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 6, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			We, seem to have moved from 'good' jobs in construction to hospitality and fruit picking... Don't the 'local folk' in Scotland want that work?
		
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To many jobs, not enough workers...â€¦â€¦.is that simple enough for you and others to understand.


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## 3offTheTee (Jan 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Perhaps you could show me a copy of the UK constitution you speak of.... I'd be really keen to see the document/pdf/photo copy/screenshot.... you do know the UK doesn't have a written constitution don't you? Many people wish it did have a constitution by the way but I look forward to you posting up a copy of the *UN*written constitution.

And its not two separate frameworks. But please post up a link showing its only laws and rights... oh, and directives... guess that makes 3. And environmental rights... is that rights or laws? They are 2 very different things. Are you getting confused again?

"We are part of a trade bloc so must adhere to the rights of the workers..." You do realise the UK still has a veto on workers rights, one of the few vetos Blair didn't give up. Maybe you could explain how the UK adheres to the EU working time directive.............. for which it exercised its right of veto.

"We can create our own laws..." Perhaps you can explain the first paragraph in post # 3498. Each member state in the EU writes its own laws, but in a lot of cases the root law is an EU law, or its a 'local' law that has passed a compliance test with the EU. We may write some of our laws but not without reference to the EU laws. So to repeat the question in post #3498, which is the higher court?

And I refer you to the last sentence/question in that post. Any chance of an answer?
		
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Liverpool Phil
This is what I expect Hobbit wanted a truly from.

Thought Hobbitâ€™s post was excellent


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			This attitude amazes me! Why canâ€™t businesses do what they used to do to attract staff..... pay better wages. People openly say they support membership of the EU because it maintains the supply of low-wage workers to the UK. In other words, to make their own lives easier, they want to exploit the less wealthy countries of Eastern Europe. In any other context this would be denounced as racist.
		
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People who live in lowly populated poorer areas have a totally different set of problems/opportunities than folk who live in overpopulated rich areas.
Scotland desperately needs immigrant workers to fill the age gap caused by so many of our skilled workers moving on for higher salaries [myself included] in the last three decades. It also has a large number of retired workers [like me] moving to Scotland for a better quality of life.
We could easily take around 250,000 young immigrants a year and they would be very welcome.
May has told Sturgeon that Scotland cannot have a different policy than rUKâ€¦.makes no sense.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			People who live in lowly populated poorer areas have a totally different set of problems/opportunities than folk who live in overpopulated rich areas.
Scotland desperately needs immigrant workers to fill the age gap caused by so many of our skilled workers moving on for higher salaries [myself included] in the last three decades. It also has a large number of retired workers [like me] moving to Scotland for a better quality of life.
*We could easily take around 250,000 young immigrants a year and they would be very welcome.*
May has told Sturgeon that Scotland cannot have a different policy than rUKâ€¦.makes no sense.
		
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Think that was Mutter Merkels out of touch view of things too. Turned out to be a massive disaster.


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## IanM (Jan 6, 2019)

Aka ... Scottish workers expecting pay rises! 

Often wondered why Trade Unions support mass migration of cheap labour.   But happy to hear explanation


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## Hobbit (Jan 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry which question - i start to shut off with the long winded posts at the end of the day tbh and the arrogance of the thread and the way people dismiss others based on how they voted is quite poor

Itâ€™s quite funny one person complaining about being insulted yet has insulted many people just because they want to remain in the EU.

And itâ€™s great that London is doing so well - truely happy for all those EU citizens in London taking advantage of the financial hub - I guess thatâ€™s the same financial hub that helped cause the recession that millions are still paying for.
		
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The collapse of the sub-prime mortgage market in the USA triggered the recession. Add the deregulation of the banks in the U.K. by Gordon Brown and them matching US regs to stay competitive. When the USA banks caught the flu the rest of the worldâ€™s banks caught pneumonia.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			To many jobs, not enough workers...â€¦â€¦.is that simple enough for you and others to understand.
		
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Then I suggest Scotland needs to go on a charm offensive... The borough I live in had thirty thousand plus arrive from the EU in the last decade... Guessing we are a whole lot more welcoming than your parts...


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## Tashyboy (Jan 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			To many jobs, not enough workers...â€¦â€¦.is that simple enough for you and others to understand.
		
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According to stats re unemployment in Scotland.

Unemployment in Scotland at 3.8% 115,000 looking for work.

So in essence, To many workers, not enough jobs.........is that simple enough etc etc etc.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 6, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			According to stats re unemployment in Scotland.

Unemployment in Scotland at 3.8% 115,000 looking for work.

So in essence, To many workers, not enough jobs.........is that simple enough etc etc etc.
		
Click to expand...

Oh ah Doon, ave just read your " we will take 1/4 million migrants a year. They will make the unemployment figures look even better. How's about this for a thought. Find work for the Scottish people that are living on benefits, before you invite more unskilled workers over.


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## chrisd (Jan 6, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Oh ah Doon, ave just read your " we will take 1/4 million migrants a year. They will make the unemployment figures look even better. How's about this for a thought. Find work for the Scottish people that are living on benefits, before you invite more unskilled workers over.
		
Click to expand...

Trashy, please stop talking sense ðŸ‘


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## bladeplayer (Jan 6, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			According to stats re unemployment in Scotland.

Unemployment in Scotland at 3.8% 115,000 looking for work.

So in essence, To many workers, not enough jobs.........is that simple enough etc etc etc.
		
Click to expand...

I can oly speak for ireland here . unemployed and looking for work are very different things 
I asked a local politician why in the boomtimes when we employed so many non nationals had we stil got unemployed irish ? 
Total truth some just wont work ( but wont b taken off benifits) ?? Why. 
Others having bn reared in "an entitled " culture have no education and couldnt hold dowm a job because min it gets tough they wont deal with it 

Some (alot) caused by non nationals willing to work for alot less . This problem was created by irish business ppl not the non national workers .  

Curious do ye think the uk workers or uk unemployed will take up these low paid often low end jobs . ? 
Some might say it will force employers yo raise wages . Higher wages . Higher cost = price increase in product or service . 
 Thoughts ?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			I can oly speak for ireland here . unemployed and looking for work are very different things
I asked a local politician why in the boomtimes when we employed so many non nationals had we stil got unemployed irish ?
Total truth some just wont work ( but wont b taken off benifits) ?? Why.
Others having bn reared in "an entitled " culture have no education and couldnt hold dowm a job because min it gets tough they wont deal with it

Some (alot) caused by non nationals willing to work for alot less . This problem was created by irish business ppl not the non national workers . 

Curious do ye think the uk workers or uk unemployed will take up these low paid often low end jobs . ?
Some might say it will force employers yo raise wages . Higher wages . Higher cost = price increase in product or service .
*Thoughts ?*

Click to expand...

We should get tough on the benefits scroungers that don't want to work. If they are fit and able but won't work then stop the benefits. 
The problem is, no politician has got the balls to do it.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 6, 2019)

The last two posts hit a lot of nails on the head for me. ðŸ‘


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## ger147 (Jan 6, 2019)

Will be interesting to see what happens next week as apparently TM had assured everyone the vote will deffo take place this time, and it looks as likely as ever her deal will be voted down.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 6, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Will be interesting to see what happens next week as apparently TM had assured everyone the vote will deffo take place this time, and it looks as likely as ever her deal will be voted down.
		
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Did she perchance use the same tone in this assurance that she used when she assured us she wouldn't call a General Election...?


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## Sweep (Jan 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'd respectfully suggest your wrong. In numerous posts I have given reasons why I consider the UK would be better off outside of the EU.
		
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I think you misunderstood my post. My point was that many, many very good reasons for leaving have been outlined by you, me and others over thousands of posts and yet one or two people are stating that they have not seen a single reason why we should leave.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well you can tell you are certainly a Tory boy

So Iâ€™ll ask again - before EU grants why were certain areas given no funding to regenerate whilst a lot of funding was given to build London to be a â€œfinancial hubâ€ and if we are talking wasting money are the current Tory boys not wasting Â£56billion building something that has no use to 90% of the country
		
Click to expand...

Is that all youve got ?    "Well you can tell you are certainly a Tory boy"    Not a very good way of challenging my reply is it, I expected better from you. Oh, and I can assure you I am not a boy.
I won't comment on your second paragraph as #Hobbit has already put you to right there.


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## ger147 (Jan 6, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Did she perchance use the same tone in this assurance that she used when she assured us she wouldn't call a General Election...?
		
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Can't comment on her tone as I didn't hear her speak, I just read what she said.


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## Sweep (Jan 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How about 62% of Scots voted to remain. Every single district of Scotland voted to remain.
The Scottish Parliament with the exception of a handful of far right Tory MSP's voted to oppose the UK Government from dragging the people of Scotland out of the EU.
The UK Government has flatly refused to work with the Scottish Government to find a workable solution for Scots with Brexit. despite doing so with NI and Gibraltar.
And now they insult us by saying we have to work together for the best solution for England and perhaps Wales.
Surprised you do not know these facts already [not]

BTW Re your first question, from this side of the fence exactly the same can be said about cliff face Leavers.
		
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I know. 62% of my street voted to remain as well. We are well fed up. We complained only to be told it was a national vote.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Every post you have on both Brexit threads was and is an insult, you were asked politely to refrain but you carried on. Now you think your being insulted when your comments are met with the emojis and same manner of response.

What goes around,  comes around. Be impolite, get rudeness in return. Be dismissive, get dismissed. Question someoneâ€™s intellect , get called a fool ....

ðŸ˜´
		
Click to expand...

None of the posts I highlighted where you were making insults were directed at me. They were directed at anyone and everyone who held a different opinion to you.   I therefore turn around your last paragraph and direct it back at you.  I am terse with people being rude and insulting, you however are insultig to anyone who holds a different view to your own.  Take a long hard look at yourself, you probably wont like it.


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## Mudball (Jan 7, 2019)

Boris says that most people support no deal.. 
I am sure now this is as true as his 350m bus


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## harpo_72 (Jan 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			None of the posts I highlighted where you were making insults were directed at me. They were directed at anyone and everyone who held a different opinion to you.   I therefore turn around your last paragraph and direct it back at you.  I am terse with people being rude and insulting, you however are insultig to anyone who holds a different view to your own.  Take a long hard look at yourself, you probably wont like it.
		
Click to expand...

Same as your posts ... ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## harpo_72 (Jan 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Boris says that most people support no deal..
I am sure now this is as true as his 350m bus
		
Click to expand...

Not sure if itâ€™s his bus, but he stood in front of it ... what other lies is he willing to promote?


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## ger147 (Jan 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Boris says that most people support no deal..
I am sure now this is as true as his 350m bus
		
Click to expand...

In a recent YouGov poll, 48% of respondents agreed with the statement "â€˜Anything less than a clean break from the EU will be a betrayal of the Referendum vote".  35% disagreed and 17% were Don't Know's.


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## Old Skier (Jan 7, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			According to stats re unemployment in Scotland.

Unemployment in Scotland at 3.8% 115,000 looking for work.

So in essence, To many workers, not enough jobs.........is that simple enough etc etc etc.
		
Click to expand...

Come on, you know the  "Wings" man doesn't do much in the way of facts.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 7, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			According to stats re unemployment in Scotland.

Unemployment in Scotland at 3.8% 115,000 looking for work.

So in essence, To many workers, not enough jobs.........is that simple enough etc etc etc.
		
Click to expand...

When I was desperately seeking seasonal staff in the Loadsamoney boom I was told by the job centre boss that anything under 4% represented full employment.
The 4% was mainly long term sick [I Daniel types], folk waiting whilst switching jobs and other such reasons.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 7, 2019)

ger147 said:



			In a recent YouGov poll, 48% of respondents agreed with the statement "â€˜Anything less than a clean break from the EU will be a betrayal of the Referendum vote".  35% disagreed and 17% were Don't Know's.
		
Click to expand...

Or alternatively on the 4th Jan a You Gov poll found that 34% wanted to leave with a no deal 46% remain in the Eu and 20% don't know.  i.e. when they were asked a direct question about a no deal. Not some question that does not specifically mention a no deal but politicians like Boris and others then interpret, extrapolate,lie for their own means.  Same old same old with him.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...u-without-a-deal-which-would-you-support-2-3/

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/poll/yougov-4-1-2019/


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## ger147 (Jan 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Or alternatively on the 4th Jan a You Gov poll found that 34% wanted to leave with a no deal 46% remain in the Eu and 20% don't know.  i.e. when they were asked a direct question about a no deal. Not some question that does not specifically mention a no deal but politicians like Boris and others then interpret, extrapolate,lie for their own means.  Same old same old with him.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...u-without-a-deal-which-would-you-support-2-3/

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/poll/yougov-4-1-2019/

Click to expand...

There's lots of interesting poll results, many of them contradictory.  For example, on the same day as the poll I posted about above, another YouGov poll had 50% of respondents replying that a No Deal exit would be bad for the UK with those saying it would be good in the mid 30's.

It would seem that the current impasse in Westminster may not be that far removed from the views of the general public i.e. no clear majority for any single outcome.


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Or alternatively on the 4th Jan a You Gov poll found that 34% wanted to leave with a no deal 46% remain in the Eu and 20% don't know.  i.e. when they were asked a direct question about a no deal. Not some question that does not specifically mention a no deal but politicians like Boris and others then interpret, extrapolate,lie for their own means.  Same old same old with him.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...u-without-a-deal-which-would-you-support-2-3/

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/poll/yougov-4-1-2019/

Click to expand...

But even the results in your example are open to an element of questioning. For example, would some of the 46% Remain want to leave if an acceptable deal was on the table? And with a voting slip in front of the don't knows, which way would they vote.

I've pondered long and hard on what the right question should be and I just can't come up with an answer. Some Leavers will say no to No Deal, and some Remainers might say Leave if a good deal was on the table. And then you've got what constitutes a good deal or a bad deal.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 7, 2019)

ger147 said:



			There's lots of interesting poll results, many of them contradictory.  For example, on the same day as the poll I posted about above, another YouGov poll had 50% of respondents replying that a No Deal exit would be bad for the UK with those saying it would be good in the mid 30's.

It would seem that the current impasse in Westminster may not be that far removed from the views of the general public i.e.* no clear majority for any single outcome*.
		
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Agree, never has and never will be, hence the reason we are in this mess.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			People who live in lowly populated poorer areas have a totally different set of problems/opportunities than folk who live in overpopulated rich areas.
Scotland desperately needs immigrant workers to fill the age gap caused by so many of our skilled workers moving on for higher salaries [myself included] in the last three decades. It also has a large number of retired workers [like me] moving to Scotland for a better quality of life.
We could easily take around 250,000 young immigrants a year and they would be very welcome.
May has told Sturgeon that Scotland cannot have a different policy than rUKâ€¦.makes no sense.
		
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How well will Scotland do with providing the necessary additional infrastructure 250,000 new people arriving a year will require? And, will the businesses pay the staff the wages to keep them interested in staying? Lots going home from these parts as wages don't equate with living costs...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 7, 2019)

I see our government is doing a full scale practice run on the ferry blockage route situation with 150 lorries.
If you stood on the shoulder of the M20 and counted lorries passing, how many do you think that would be in 20 minutes.

Utterly clueless, I would imagine some union flag waving UKIP/EDL type would be seeing them off saying 'I counted them all out'.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 7, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			How well will Scotland do with providing the necessary additional infrastructure 250,000 new people arriving a year will require? And, will the businesses pay the staff the wages to keep them interested in staying? Lots going home from these parts as wages don't equate with living costs...
		
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Cost of living is much cheaper in Scotland when you factor in house prices/university fees/community charge etc.
Plus of course lower income tax for anyone earning an average wage.


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## drdel (Jan 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I think you misunderstood my post. My point was that many, many very good reasons for leaving have been outlined by you, me and others over thousands of posts and yet one or two people are stating that they have not seen a single reason why we should leave.
		
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Re-read your post: sorry 'fingers in gear; mind in neutral '!


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## MegaSteve (Jan 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Cost of living is much cheaper in Scotland when you factor in house prices/university fees/community charge etc.
Plus of course lower income tax for anyone earning an average wage.
		
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Supply and demand will see the cost of housing rise... What about rise in need of school places, hospital beds and public transport? How will Scotland fund those additional costs?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 7, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Supply and demand will see the cost of housing rise... What about rise in need of school places, hospital beds and public transport? *How will Scotland fund those additional costs*?
		
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You do what any government will do, prioritise spending on where you feel it is needed the most. God forbid we may even raise taxes a bit to pay for decent public services to benefit the whole country.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You do what any government will do, prioritise spending on where you feel it is needed the most. God forbid we may even raise taxes a bit to pay for decent public services to benefit the whole country.
		
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Sadly governments with a conscience don't last...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 7, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Supply and demand will see the cost of housing rise... What about rise in need of school places, hospital beds and public transport? How will Scotland fund those additional costs?
		
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By becoming independent for starters.

From the taxes of an expanded workforce of course.....like it has always done.

Something that SE England has done quite a bit of over the last 50 years.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			By becoming independent for starters.

From the taxes of an expanded workforce of course.....like it has always done.

Something that SE England has done quite a bit of over the last 50 years.
		
Click to expand...

Pie in the sky thinking... If all you have to offer is minimum wage (at best) employment tax income, unless you skyrocket the standard rate, won't keep up with infrastructure costs... Unless Scottish businesses are more willing to stump up than the likes of Amazon...


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Supply and demand will see the cost of housing rise... What about rise in need of school places, hospital beds and public transport? How will Scotland fund those additional costs?
		
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That's an interesting point.
The assertion is that, as population rises artificially, the tax take of the UK doesn't match the increase and then there'll be a significant imbalance, resulting in shortages/deficiencies in the infrastructure..

I'm at work so can't really look, but wouldn't it be interesting if someone looked at the Tax take of the UK in 2000/2001 then in 2017/2018. Then compared this total to the population increase. Then we could work out just how thin the money is spread. I mean, it has to have gone down, or else all these assertions would effectively be lies, wouldn't they?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Cost of living is much cheaper in Scotland when you factor in house prices/university fees/community charge etc.
Plus of course lower income tax for anyone earning an average wage.
		
Click to expand...

Ok if you are a student buying a house on average wage.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That's an interesting point.
The assertion is that, as population rises artificially, the tax take of the UK doesn't match the increase and then there'll be a significant imbalance, resulting in shortages/deficiencies in the infrastructure..

I'm at work so can't really look, but wouldn't it be interesting if someone looked at the Tax take of the UK in 2000/2001 then in 2017/2018. Then compared this total to the population increase. Then we could work out just how thin the money is spread. I mean, it has to have gone down, or else all these assertions would effectively be lies, wouldn't they?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I am not the best at googling... It would appear... As a percentage of GDP total tax income appears to be down... No doubt foxy will be along shortly to advise I've got that wrong...


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That's an interesting point.
The assertion is that, as population rises artificially, the tax take of the UK doesn't match the increase and then there'll be a significant imbalance, resulting in shortages/deficiencies in the infrastructure..

I'm at work so can't really look, but wouldn't it be interesting if someone looked at the Tax take of the UK in 2000/2001 then in 2017/2018. Then compared this total to the population increase. Then we could work out just how thin the money is spread. I mean, it has to have gone down, or else all these assertions would effectively be lies, wouldn't they?
		
Click to expand...

Income tax revenue has risen from Â£105bn to Â£181bn.
Total tax receipts have risen from Â£315bn to Â£594bn.

Population 58m to 66m.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			By becoming independent for starters.

From the taxes of an expanded workforce of course.....like it has always done.

Something that SE England has done quite a bit of over the last 50 years.
		
Click to expand...

You may well find that the jobs you want to create are low skilled and low paid. And if that is the case then you are competing with third world countrys in the way of paying wages. If that is the case you are bring â€¢ing in migrants for the benefit of who ? Now i could be wrong and in Scotland you have vast swathes of skilled people and highly educated children leaving school ready to go into highly skilled jobs.  Me finks not. Thise jibs are just not there but you want 250k of migrants a year looking for them. Dream on.

PS. How many of those 250 K a year do you think will stay in Scotland or do you think any of them
Might just make there way South where the streets are paved with gold.


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Income tax revenue has risen from Â£105bn to Â£181bn.
Total tax receipts have risen from Â£315bn to Â£594bn.

Population 58m to 66m.
		
Click to expand...

So, in summary, as the population has risen, the tax take has risen at a faster rate? This means that the population increase is actually a red herring when looking at spending on infrastructure. So, it looks like the fault lies not with immigrants, but with the choices that successive Governments have made. Glad we've put that idea to bed. We can probably concentrate on real problems now, and not convenient excuses..


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			So, in summary, as the population has risen, the tax take has risen at a faster rate? This means that the population increase is actually a red herring when looking at spending on infrastructure. So, it looks like the fault lies not with immigrants, but with the choices that successive Governments have made. Glad we've put that idea to bed. We can probably concentrate on real problems now, and not convenient excuses..
		
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If only it was that simple. Have a look at the interest on govt debt.

That said, imagine the trouble the country would be in if immigrants hadn't been paying tax.


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If only it was that simple. Have a look at the interest on govt debt.

That said, imagine the trouble the country would be in if immigrants hadn't been paying tax.
		
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Yup, the big Ponzi scheme is ready to burst. Thank God for immigrants. We'd be in real trouble if they hadn't come in and started paying taxes!!!

I suppose the real issue is Government debt. The real reason that money isn't being spent on infrastructure is nothing to do with immigration levels, and everything to do with the vast amount of debt we are in since the Banking crisis. Immigration is actually helping to keep us afloat. The increased Tax Take from an increasing population is stopping us sliding back into recession. #huganimmigranttoday


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## MegaSteve (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Yup, the big Ponzi scheme is ready to burst. Thank God for immigrants. We'd be in real trouble if they hadn't come in and started paying taxes!!!

I suppose the real issue is Government debt. The real reason that money isn't being spent on infrastructure is nothing to do with immigration levels, and everything to do with the vast amount of debt we are in since the Banking crisis. Immigration is actually helping to keep us afloat. The increased Tax Take from an increasing population is stopping us sliding back into recession. #huganimmigranttoday
		
Click to expand...

Sadly they appear to be returning home from these parts... Can't afford our cost of living on the wages being offered...


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Yup, the big Ponzi scheme is ready to burst. Thank God for immigrants. We'd be in real trouble if they hadn't come in and started paying taxes!!!

I suppose the real issue is Government debt. The real reason that money isn't being spent on infrastructure is nothing to do with immigration levels, and everything to do with the vast amount of debt we are in since the Banking crisis. Immigration is actually helping to keep us afloat. The increased Tax Take from an increasing population is stopping us sliding back into recession. #huganimmigranttoday
		
Click to expand...

And as unpopular as it is, maybe cutting Corporation Tax to stimulate business isn't hurting the tax take.


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And as unpopular as it is, maybe cutting Corporation Tax to stimulate business isn't hurting the tax take.
		
Click to expand...

It isn't.. I'd also like to see a bigger Tax hit on profits. Not because it'll increase the tax take, but because it'll force Companies to reinvest in the business so as to avoid it. Trickle down economics doesn't work. Far better to force re-investment in training and machinery. Especially if you give bigger tax breaks for training and bigger tax breaks for buying locally innovated and produced machines.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 7, 2019)

Anyway, back on topic, vote on May's deal confirmed for 15th Jan and her resignation confirmed for the 17th Jan.  Article 50 will be postponed for a year on the 18th Jan and a general election called on the 20th Jan to take place in mid March with Javid as the leader of the Tory party.


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			It isn't.. I'd also like to see a bigger Tax hit on profits. Not because it'll increase the tax take, but because it'll force Companies to reinvest in the business so as to avoid it. Trickle down economics doesn't work. Far better to force re-investment in training and machinery. Especially if you give bigger tax breaks for training and bigger tax breaks for buying locally innovated and produced machines.
		
Click to expand...

Half through reading your post I was about to post up â€œtax breaksâ€ for reinvestment and training. 

But buying locally...? Youâ€™ll be voting for Brexit next


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That's an interesting point.
The assertion is that, as population rises artificially, the tax take of the UK doesn't match the increase and then there'll be a significant imbalance, resulting in shortages/deficiencies in the infrastructure..

I'm at work so can't really look, but wouldn't it be interesting if someone looked at the Tax take of the UK in 2000/2001 then in 2017/2018. Then compared this total to the population increase. Then we could work out just how thin the money is spread. I mean, it has to have gone down, or else all these assertions would effectively be lies, wouldn't they?
		
Click to expand...

The attached article and it's links should help with understand how immigration has affected the economy.   Before dismissing it as a Tory right wing piece of propaganda give it a read.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/economics


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Yup, the big Ponzi scheme is ready to burst. Thank God for immigrants. We'd be in real trouble if they hadn't come in and started paying taxes!!!

I suppose the real issue is Government debt. The real reason that money isn't being spent on infrastructure is nothing to do with immigration levels, and everything to do with the vast amount of debt we are in since the Banking crisis. Immigration is actually helping to keep us afloat. The increased Tax Take from an increasing population is stopping us sliding back into recession. #huganimmigranttoday
		
Click to expand...

Really.  Nothing to do with Gordon's borrowing frenzy and increases in welfare costs.  Can you show some evidence that immigration is keeping us afloat other than soundbites please.


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Half through reading your post I was about to post up â€œtax breaksâ€ for reinvestment and training.

But buying locally...? Youâ€™ll be voting for Brexit next

Click to expand...

I'd never vote for it, but seeing as it's happening, only a fool wouldn't prepare for it.. ;-)


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The attached article and it's links should help with understand how immigration has affected the economy.   Before dismissing it as a Tory right wing piece of propaganda give it a read.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/economics

Click to expand...

No disrespect to yourself, but I wouldn't wipe my backside on anything produced by Migration watch. Any piece of evidence that is produced with a conclusion already reached is tainted beyond repair.. But thanks for posting..


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No disrespect to yourself, but I wouldn't wipe my backside on anything produced by Migration watch. Any piece of evidence that is produced with a conclusion already reached is tainted beyond repair.. But thanks for posting..
		
Click to expand...

The University of Oxford's Migration Observatory report.

the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-in-the-uk


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Really.  Nothing to do with Gordon's borrowing frenzy and increases in welfare costs.  Can you show some evidence that immigration is keeping us afloat other than soundbites please.
		
Click to expand...

The post itself was slightly lighthearted.
Ironically, if you chart Government debt over the last few hundred years then the significant rises have all coincided with times of War. From American Independance, Napoleonic, World War 1, 2 and then the Middle East. At all other tmes, Debt has been decreasing.. I wonder what lesson we can learn from that?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No disrespect to yourself, but I wouldn't wipe my backside on anything produced by Migration watch. Any piece of evidence that is produced with a conclusion already reached is tainted beyond repair.. But thanks for posting..
		
Click to expand...

So you cant be bothered to read it or the associated links to research groups due to your personal prejudice. I am honestly dissapointed in you.


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The University of Oxford's Migration Observatory report.

the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-in-the-uk

Click to expand...

That makes interesting reading. Thanks for posting..


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So you cant be bothered to read it or the associated links to research groups due to your personal prejudice. I am honestly dissapointed in you.
		
Click to expand...

I most definitely have a personal prejudice against Migration Watch. I have similar prejudices against a number of Think tanks that hide their funding. Migration Watch are NOT independant in the slightest. They have vested interests in disinformation and outright lies. They bend statistics and dispute good research. They are a tumour on this Country and I'm equally disappointed that you choose to legitimise them.

Oh, and you can take groups like The Tax Payers Alliance with you as well.. They're everything that is wrong with this Country...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The University of Oxford's Migration Observatory report.

the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-in-the-uk

Click to expand...

Skim Reading that and it seems the financial affect on the UK from migrants is virtually nil ? And indeed a good deal appear to contribute more than they take out ?

Did it cover asylum seekers etc as well


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## IanM (Jan 7, 2019)

Both sides of the fence don't agree with research or articles that they don't like the findings of... fancy that!


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

IanM said:



			Both sides of the fence don't agree with research or articles that they don't like the findings of... fancy that!
		
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I agree with Independently funded and intelligently compiled research, no matter what side it comes down on. I fundamentally disagree with dog whistle Think Tanks that hide their funding and compile research based solely on an already reached conclusion.. Fancy that.


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## Sweep (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Yup, the big Ponzi scheme is ready to burst. Thank God for immigrants. We'd be in real trouble if they hadn't come in and started paying taxes!!!

I suppose the real issue is Government debt. The real reason that money isn't being spent on infrastructure is nothing to do with immigration levels, and everything to do with the vast amount of debt we are in since the Banking crisis. Immigration is actually helping to keep us afloat. The increased Tax Take from an increasing population is stopping us sliding back into recession. #huganimmigranttoday
		
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You have to factor in all kinds of things though. You have 18 years of inflation for a start. The cost of providing public services per person has risen massively and far beyond inflation too, mainly because we expect modern, high tech services now. You canâ€™t have a classroom with a blackboard these days and yet I was taught in a building made from asbestos - I am not kidding. Every child now has a computer. When I was at school there was one computer. It was in the technical college 12 miles away. I beat it at noughts and crosses. We expect hospitals with high tech life saving equipment and staff trained to use it. We expect modern, warm, well lit, archictural public buildings. Instant information. Of course we should have all these things and more but anyone over 50 can relate to a time when public service was very different. So the burden on the tax pot is much higher, massively higher per person than it was in 2000.

I did though, used to believe that the politicians deserved some credit. When I was a kid, very few of my friends mums went out to work. Now, almost every mum does. Two wages per household is the norm. In addition to this we have all the immigration. Millions more people in work and yet, in my lifetime unemployment has always been between 1.5 and 3m. I wondered how they did it. And when you work out how, you realise why politicians quite like immigration. Simply put, jobs create jobs. If a company opens, they need offices. Someone has to build it. They need staff who need desks and chairs and computers and a local sandwich bar for lunch and transport links to get to work etc etc. And what do jobs create? Tax. This is why we are a services based nation. Itâ€™s basically lazy politics increasing the population to create funding but the problem is, it isnâ€™t infinite. At some point we need to get back to responsible policies that create jobs and provide decent public services for a sustainable population.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 7, 2019)

IanM said:



			Both sides of the fence don't agree with research or articles that they don't like the findings of... fancy that!
		
Click to expand...

Surely it appears to be the case that one â€œarticleâ€ is what it seems from an independent source with no agendas and just gives facts 

And the other is far from independent and is from a group that have already made conclusions and are trying to prove it


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I most definitely have a personal prejudice against Migration Watch. I have similar prejudices against a number of Think tanks that hide their funding. Migration Watch are NOT independant in the slightest. They have vested interests in disinformation and outright lies. They bend statistics and dispute good research. They are a tumour on this Country and I'm equally disappointed that you choose to legitimise them.

Oh, and you can take groups like The Tax Payers Alliance with you as well.. They're everything that is wrong with this Country...
		
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Lets burn their books then. The article uses many supporting links to organisations like The House of Lords and the OBR.   There is a wealth of this supporting material offered but you suggest they form opinions without evidence.


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Skim Reading that and it seems the financial affect on the UK from migrants is virtually nil ? And indeed a good deal appear to contribute more than they take out ?

Did it cover asylum seekers etc as well
		
Click to expand...

Skim reading potentially misses a number of aspects. 

Immigration from the EU; depending on which report you read the contribution from EU migrants hovers either side of 0.0 dependent on which way the wind is blowing in any given year.

Immigration from non-EU, which includes illegals; is hugely negative. It must be emphasised that legal immigration from non-EU countries has exactly the same effect on the economy as EU immigration.

I've employed a number of staff from non-EU countries. The paperwork is massive! But at the end of the day they still pay tax as we do, and should be considered as another worker on equal footing as everyone else.


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			You have to factor in all kinds of things though. You have 18 years of inflation for a start. The cost of providing public services per person has risen massively and far beyond inflation too, mainly because we expect modern, high tech services now. You canâ€™t have a classroom with a blackboard these days and yet I was taught in a building made from asbestos - I am not kidding. Every child now has a computer. When I was at school there was one computer. It was in the technical college 12 miles away. I beat it at noughts and crosses. We expect hospitals with high tech life saving equipment and staff trained to use it. We expect modern, warm, well lit, archictural public buildings. Instant information. Of course we should have all these things and more but anyone over 50 can relate to a time when public service was very different. So the burden on the tax pot is much higher, massively higher per person than it was in 2000.

I did though, used to believe that the politicians deserved some credit. When I was a kid, very few of my friends mums went out to work. Now, almost every mum does. Two wages per household is the norm. In addition to this we have all the immigration. Millions more people in work and yet, in my lifetime unemployment has always been between 1.5 and 3m. I wondered how they did it. And when you work out how, you realise why politicians quite like immigration. Simply put, jobs create jobs. If a company opens, they need offices. Someone has to build it. They need staff who need desks and chairs and computers and a local sandwich bar for lunch and transport links to get to work etc etc. And what do jobs create? Tax. This is why we are a services based nation. Itâ€™s basically lazy politics increasing the population to create funding but the problem is, it isnâ€™t infinite. At some point we need to get back to responsible policies that create jobs and provide decent public services for a sustainable population.
		
Click to expand...

Unsurprisingly, I 100% agree with what you've written. I've been saying much the same for the last few years. Not one person could make a coherent argument for uncontrolled immigration. However, if you want to control it, then you'd damn well better make some fundamental changes to the Economic landscape that we live in. If we just stop immigration today, we'd be bankrupt within a generation. Our Politicians have chased the easy money for far too long. If we want to improve the quality of life for everyone and not just the top 1%, then we're going to have to adopt more socially responsible policies..


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Lets burn their books then.
		
Click to expand...

That's your opinion. I just choose to ignore them. Even when you post them up and ask me to read them.. I have the freedom to do that, don't I?


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## IanM (Jan 7, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely it appears to be the case that one â€œarticleâ€ is what it seems from an independent source with no agendas and just gives facts

And the other is far from independent and is from a group that have already made conclusions and are trying to prove it
		
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I agree.... if only "independence" was clear cut.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That's your opinion. I just choose to ignore them. Even when you post them up and ask me to read them.. I have the freedom to do that, don't I?
		
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Of course you do, just like I have the freedom to disagree with you.   The least you can do in a discussion is listen to and consider an oposing view and give a reasoned response.   There are a number of supporting reports linked in that article to substantial sources but if you prefer to dismiss it out of hand you can.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I agree with Independently funded and intelligently compiled research, no matter what side it comes down on. I fundamentally disagree with dog whistle Think Tanks that hide their funding and compile research based solely on an already reached conclusion.. Fancy that.
		
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Me too.  But having said that I am liking the stuff put out by the European Research Group. I mean with a name like that how can they be anything but a completely independent non partisan research group building on years of practical and academic experience of the complexities of the EU?


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Me too.  But having said that I am liking the stuff put out by the European Research Group. I mean with a name like that how can they be anything but a completely independent non partisan research group building on years of practical and academic experience of the complexities of the EU?
		
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If only someone had the balls to make it illegal to hide the funding of any "Research Group". Imagine what would happen when all those people who think that The ERG, TPA, Migration Watch etc are Independent suddenly realise that most of the funding is coming from American Alt Right groups. The same people who are funding Yaxley-Lennon and Farage (allegedly). Just imagine...


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## IanM (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			If only someone had the balls to make it illegal to hide the funding of any "Research Group". Imagine what would happen when all those people who think that The ERG, TPA, Migration Watch etc are Independent suddenly realise that most of the funding is coming from American Alt Right groups. The same people who are funding Yaxley-Lennon and Farage (allegedly). Just imagine... 

Click to expand...

Completely agree.... and the same applies to Left Wing Groups, Universities and Broadcasters of all hues....


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course you do, just like I have the freedom to disagree with you.   The least you can do in a discussion is listen to and consider an oposing view and give a reasoned response.   There are a number of supporting reports linked in that article to substantial sources but if you prefer to dismiss it out of hand you can.
		
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That logic doesn't work.. It's the same logic that is followed by the BBC currently. They appear to think that every discussion needs an opposing view. Even if that view is plainly wrong. Every time they discuss Climate Change, they simply have to have a Climate Change sceptic. This just serves to muddy the waters and stifle meaningful debate. Want to talk about the Moon Landings, the BBC have to have a Conspiracy Theorist on who claims it was all done on a sound stage in Arizona.. It's ludicrous..


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

IanM said:



			Completely agree.... and the same applies to Left Wing Groups, Universities and Broadcasters of all hues....
		
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100% agree. Make funding transparent and see them all scatter for the hills.. It would improve society within 10 years.. Just ask why they don't do it though...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That logic doesn't work.. It's the same logic that is followed by the BBC currently. They appear to think that every discussion needs an opposing view. Even if that view is plainly wrong. Every time they discuss Climate Change, they simply have to have a Climate Change sceptic. This just serves to muddy the waters and stifle meaningful debate. Want to talk about the Moon Landings, the BBC have to have a Conspiracy Theorist on who claims it was all done on a sound stage in Arizona.. It's ludicrous..
		
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Oh dear!  The links used to give further supporting information were to research carried out by organisations like The House of Lords and Office for Budget Responsibility,  How can you compare that to the scenarios you are suggesting.  Unless you are saying they are on a parallel to the Flat Earth Society or the Elvis Works in a Rotherom Chip Shop group.


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh dear!  The links used to give further supporting information were to research carried out by organisations like The House of Lords and Office for Budget Responsibility,  How can you compare that to the scenarios you are suggesting.  Unless you are saying they are on a parallel to the Flat Earth Society or the Elvis Works in a Rotherom Chip Shop group.
		
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Oh dear? Is there really a need to stoop to these attempted efforts at patronising me? It doesn't work you know. It just makes it look like you don't understand the argument. 

Oh, and it's exceptionally easy to base flawed conclusions on good data. Especially when you're being paid to do so.


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That's your opinion. I just choose to ignore them. Even when you post them up and ask me to read them.. I have the freedom to do that, don't I?
		
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I donâ€™t ignore them because I want to know both sides of the argument. How can you oppose an opposing view if you donâ€™t know what it is?

â€œKnow thyne enemy.â€


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Anyway, back on topic, vote on May's deal confirmed for 15th Jan and her resignation confirmed for the 17th Jan.  Article 50 will be postponed for a year on the 18th Jan and a general election called on the 20th Jan to take place in mid March with Javid as the leader of the Tory party.
		
Click to expand...

If only....â€¦â€¦
Done and dusted, I am afraid that we have a choice between a vote that will break up the UK or the disaster of a Blindfold Brexit.
May is asking the country [assuming she means the UK and not just England] to make common sense choices, neither makes the slightest bit of sense to me.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If only....â€¦â€¦
Done and dusted, I am afraid that we have a choice between a vote that will break up the UK or the disaster of a Blindfold Brexit.
May is asking the country [assuming she means the UK and not just England] to make common sense choices, neither makes the slightest bit of sense to me.
		
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May isnâ€™t asking us because we arenâ€™t voting - the MPâ€™s are â€œ all MPâ€™sâ€ not just English so get rid of the chip for a day 

And whilst I donâ€™t want to leave your post is nothing but scaremongering 

How do you know the UK will break up ? And how do you know it will be a disaster


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I donâ€™t ignore them because I want to know both sides of the argument. How can you oppose an opposing view if you donâ€™t know what it is?

â€œKnow thyne enemy.â€
		
Click to expand...

Because migration watch isn't an opposing view in the same way that Flat Earthers aren't an opposing view to a discussion on synchronous orbits.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Because migration watch isn't an opposing view in the same way that Flat Earthers aren't an opposing view to a discussion on synchronous orbits.
		
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You are certainly ducking and diving the issue.  I do give you the courtesy of reading your posts and even things you link to them. If you disagree with a post I made genuinely to reinforce a certain view then in my opinion it's reasonable to expect someone disagreeing with it to at least take the time to read it along with it's supporting data. Of course you are free to disagree with it but to disregard it out of hand and suggest its bottom scrapings  is bigoted and not what I would expect from you.  Anyhow, I will sadly accept your opinion.


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## drdel (Jan 7, 2019)

C'mon guys surely there's some Brexit arguments still to be had; this tangent has had a couple of pages (largely bickering) and gone nowhere!

How about the 'No Deal' faction gaining traction?


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## bluewolf (Jan 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are certainly ducking and diving the issue.  I do give you the courtesy of reading your posts and even things you link to them. If you disagree with a post I made genuinely to reinforce a certain view then in my opinion it's reasonable to expect someone disagreeing with it to at least take the time to read it along with it's supporting data. Of course you are free to disagree with it but to disregard it out of hand and suggest its bottom scrapings  is bigoted and not what I would expect from you.  Anyhow, I will sadly accept your opinion.
		
Click to expand...

And now you insult me. I've been courteous enough not to insult you. I don't expect the same, but it's always nice. 
And I didnt read your link as it's not the first time you've posted it. I fundamentally disagreed with its conclusions then and my mind hasn't been changed in the slightest since. 
And now, bearing in mind that I've been patronised and insulted by you, I'll take my leave of this thread again. It was a poor decision to return to it anyway ðŸ‘


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are certainly ducking and diving the issue.  I do give you the courtesy of reading your posts and even things you link to them. If you disagree with a post I made genuinely to reinforce a certain view then in my opinion it's reasonable to expect someone disagreeing with it to at least take the time to read it along with it's supporting data. Of course you are free to disagree with it but to disregard it out of hand and suggest its bottom scrapings * is bigoted *and not what I would expect from you.  Anyhow, I will sadly accept your opinion.
		
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Werenâ€™t you recently throwing your toys out because you believe someone was insulting you - I do believe you told the person to look in the mirror ?! Maybe you should do the same yourself - just being hypocritical 

BE and Hobbit appear to be the two main more balanced non biased posters on the subject and they are able to post without throwing insults at people yet you want to throw words like bigot around. You are no better on here than SILH


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And now you insult me. I've been courteous enough not to insult you. I don't expect the same, but it's always nice.
And I didnt read your link as it's not the first time you've posted it. I fundamentally disagreed with its conclusions then and my mind hasn't been changed in the slightest since.
And now, bearing in mind that I've been patronised and insulted by you, I'll take my leave of this thread again. It was a poor decision to return to it anyway ðŸ‘
		
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On reflection I apologise for the Bigot comment.,  it was unfair. Sorry.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Werenâ€™t you recently throwing your toys out because you believe someone was insulting you - I do believe you told the person to look in the mirror ?! Maybe you should do the same yourself - just being hypocritical

BE and Hobbit appear to be the two main more balanced non biased posters on the subject and they are able to post without throwing insults at people yet you want to throw words like bigot around. *You are no better on here than SILH*

Click to expand...

It's quite simple really.

I believe leaving the EU is an act of madness and deliberate national self-harm - an act that will damage the futures of my children and that will impact negatively most the poorest and most vulnerable of society.

I read here of the benefits leaving the EU will bring to the UK - but I still do not read and see that many benefits coming *directly *to the ordinary man and woman in the street - certainly not sufficient to counter the real and tangible negative impacts that will be felt - almost from the word go as tariffs get applied to imports and costs increase - never mind the risk to jobs that IDS does not seem to think exists.

The decision to leave was IMO based upon a false prospectus set out by Leave campaigns that fed off discontent with the EU fostered by decades of lies and exaggerations from the anti-EU press and those who detest every fibre of EU being.  That the EU - even with the UK in a key influencing position - could have done some things differently to try and counter the ant-EU propaganda is certainly true - but I doubt it would have made that much difference.  When a lie is told enough times it becomes the truth for some - a truth that is very difficult to counter (see the Bannon/Trump Lies Playbook) - and the EU-phobes would have continued their campaign whatever

Where the UK is today is pretty grim in it's divisions and anger - and I feat that that anger* has a long way to go no matter what outcome of the coming months as people hurt ever more and little benefit is felt or even perceived.   And for what?  The self-satisfaction of a relatively well-off minority of anti-EU and largely English UK nationalist ideologues seems just about all I can come up with.  Not great and very sad and worrying (* and see the disgusting and vile abuse of Anna Soubry today - and those voicing that abuse will not have been on the Remain side of the argument but is symptomatic of what been unleashed)

I note that if in 10yrs tim e - or maybe even 5yrs time - Brexit is shown and found to have been a great success then great - because my children will be benefitting as will the poorest - and I will have been completely wrong.  But I will be relieved to be so wrong.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's quite simple really.

I believe leaving the EU is an act of madness and deliberate national self-harm - an act that will damage the futures of my children and that will impact negatively most the poorest and most vulnerable of society.

I read here of the benefits leaving the EU will bring to the UK - but I still do not read and see that many benefits coming *directly *to the ordinary man and woman in the street - certainly not sufficient to counter the real and tangible negative impacts that will be felt - almost from the word go as tariffs get applied to imports and costs increase - never mind the risk to jobs that IDS does not seem to think exists.

The decision to leave was IMO based upon a false prospectus set out by Leave campaigns that fed off discontent with the EU fostered by decades of lies and exaggerations from the anti-EU press and those who detest every fibre of EU being.  That the EU - even with the UK in a key influencing position - could have done some things differently to try and counter the ant-EU propaganda is certainly true - but I doubt it would have made that much difference.  When a lie is told enough times it becomes the truth for some - a truth that is very difficult to counter (see the Bannon/Trump Lies Playbook) - and the EU-phobes would have continued their campaign whatever

Where the UK is today is pretty grim in it's divisions and anger - and I feat that that anger* has a long way to go no matter what outcome of the coming months as people hurt ever more and little benefit is felt or even perceived.   And for what?  The self-satisfaction of a relatively well-off minority of anti-EU and largely English UK nationalist ideologues seems just about all I can come up with.  Not great and very sad and worrying (* and see the disgusting and vile abuse of Anna Soubry today - and those voicing that abuse will not have been on the Remain side of the argument but is symptomatic of what been unleashed)
		
Click to expand...

We all understand exactly how you feel about Brexit SILH so there really is no need to reiterate it, doing so is just stoking up old sores.  I admit to needing a dose of the same medicene, maybe its time to focus debate on the current situation rather than us regurgitating the past which cannot be altered.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We all understand exactly how you feel about Brexit SILH so there really is no need to reiterate it, doing so is just stoking up old sores.  I admit to needing a dose of the same medicene, maybe its time to focus debate on the current situation rather than us regurgitating the past which cannot be altered.
		
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To do that requires everyone to accept that we are leaving the EU, that includes the negotiating team, politicians and in particular the those representing the Labour Party.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We all understand exactly how you feel about Brexit SILH so there really is no need to reiterate it, doing so is just stoking up old sores.  I admit to needing a dose of the same medicene, maybe its time to focus debate on the current situation rather than us regurgitating the past which cannot be altered.
		
Click to expand...

I do not disagree  I only say it again to make clear the basis of my position. I note also and fully accept that there is unacceptable abuse directed at sucg as Farage and Rees-Mogg by some who voted to remain - again symptomatic of the anger unleashed by the bvote and the mess we are in.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			To do that requires everyone to accept that we are leaving the EU, that includes the negotiating team, politicians and in particular the *those representing the Labour Party*.
		
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Labour's handing of this has been atrocious, but in the grand scheme of who has been responsible for the cluster we are currently in then Labour is not really at the top of the list and should not really deserve a 'in particular', you could have ended your sentence after the word politicians and it would have been fine . Concentrate on the mess made by the side who are in government and who have been calling all the shots.  And if you are a supporter of said Tory party, have a long hard look at them instead of singling out the opposition. As some may argue blaming others for our own misfortune is kind of what led us to this position. Also you could make the argument that labour should represent the view of their members, whatever it is this week.


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## chrisd (Jan 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's quite simple really.

I believe leaving the EU is an act of madness and deliberate national self-harm - an act that will damage the futures of my children and that will impact negatively most the poorest and most vulnerable of society.

I read here of the benefits leaving the EU will bring to the UK - but I still do not read and see that many benefits coming *directly *to the ordinary man and woman in the street - certainly not sufficient to counter the real and tangible negative impacts that will be felt - almost from the word go as tariffs get applied to imports and costs increase - never mind the risk to jobs that IDS does not seem to think exists.

The decision to leave was IMO based upon a false prospectus set out by Leave campaigns that fed off discontent with the EU fostered by decades of lies and exaggerations from the anti-EU press and those who detest every fibre of EU being.  That the EU - even with the UK in a key influencing position - could have done some things differently to try and counter the ant-EU propaganda is certainly true - but I doubt it would have made that much difference.  When a lie is told enough times it becomes the truth for some - a truth that is very difficult to counter (see the Bannon/Trump Lies Playbook) - and the EU-phobes would have continued their campaign whatever

Where the UK is today is pretty grim in it's divisions and anger - and I feat that that anger* has a long way to go no matter what outcome of the coming months as people hurt ever more and little benefit is felt or even perceived.   And for what?  The self-satisfaction of a relatively well-off minority of anti-EU and largely English UK nationalist ideologues seems just about all I can come up with.  Not great and very sad and worrying (* and see the disgusting and vile abuse of Anna Soubry today - and those voicing that abuse will not have been on the Remain side of the argument but is symptomatic of what been unleashed)

I note that if in 10yrs tim e - or maybe even 5yrs time - Brexit is shown and found to have been a great success then great - because my children will be benefitting as will the poorest - and I will have been completely wrong.  But I will be relieved to be so wrong.
		
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The thing is SILH, I voted out but I was 50/50 when I walked into the polling booth and I have to say that reading the hundreds of posts you have made on the issue, if anything, they have hardened my resolve to want to leave.From not accepting a democratic decision to the insults we leavers have been subjected to by you, I would definitely vote to leave a second time because you, and many like you have insulted our intelligence over and over. The lies, and counter lies, went both ways when we voted to leave it was a binary choice and had the remainers not decided to insult us with "project fear" then we might well have decided differently but then I blame Cameron for failing in his negotiations, the Eu for treating us like mugs and Parliament for abrogating their responsibilities and voting for a referendum.

The problem for me with the whole issue is that people nowadays can't accept a vote that doesn't go their way and I've rarely seen anyone interviewed who's wanted a second vote give a reason that doesn't come down to "so that we can reverse the decision as I didn't agree with it" 

Clearly, to me anyway, the way that the government have handled it has been a mess, either deliberately so as to try and not really leave, or that they just dont have any ability to negotiate, and also because it should have been done from day one by a leaver so that their heart was really in it. I believe that we are seeing the end of the EU as we know it, there are other countries who's population would vote to leave and with the ever more federalism that the unelected powerbase intend to follow I certainly think other countries will eventually follow our lead. I'm for a " Common Market" , indeed I voted for it back in the day, and I understand the need for a limited amount of federalism to ensure fair play but these people have, and are, going too far and I firmly believe we will prosper in the long run.

Maybe I'm being rather simplistic in my views but think that the EU could have, and probably still could, stop us leaving by offering to resolve many of the issues Cameron tried to get them to do and then suggest a 2nd vote rather than pander to remainers wanting a 2nd vote just because they didn't like the 1st one


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## Dando (Jan 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The thing is SILH, I voted out but I was 50/50 when I walked into the polling booth and I have to say that reading the hundreds of posts you have made on the issue, if anything, they have hardened my resolve to want to leave.From not accepting a democratic decision to the insults we leavers have been subjected to by you, I would definitely vote to leave a second time because you, and many like you have insulted our intelligence over and over. The lies, and counter lies, went both ways when we voted to leave it was a binary choice and had the remainers not decided to insult us with "project fear" then we might well have decided differently but then I blame Cameron for failing in his negotiations, the Eu for treating us like mugs and Parliament for abrogating their responsibilities and voting for a referendum.

The problem for me with the whole issue is that people nowadays can't accept a vote that doesn't go their way and I've rarely seen anyone interviewed who's wanted a second vote give a reason that doesn't come down to "so that we can reverse the decision as I didn't agree with it"

Clearly, to me anyway, the way that the government have handled it has been a mess, either deliberately so as to try and not really leave, or that they just dont have any ability to negotiate, and also because it should have been done from day one by a leaver so that their heart was really in it. I believe that we are seeing the end of the EU as we know it, there are other countries who's population would vote to leave and with the ever more federalism that the unelected powerbase intend to follow I certainly think other countries will eventually follow our lead. I'm for a " Common Market" , indeed I voted for it back in the day, and I understand the need for a limited amount of federalism to ensure fair play but these people have, and are, going too far and I firmly believe we will prosper in the long run.

Maybe I'm being rather simplistic in my views but think that the EU could have, and probably still could, stop us leaving by offering to resolve many of the issues Cameron tried to get them to do and then suggest a 2nd vote rather than pander to remainers wanting a 2nd vote just because they didn't like the 1st one
		
Click to expand...

this post deserves a standing ovation!


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2019)

Chris D has mirrored many of my thoughts.  I suspect the EU believes it cannot be overruled so carries on regardless... (every vote against further integration has been rerun/ignored)  I still suspect the UK Ref will be no different.


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2019)

I'd add that no-one has every had a successful negotiated settlement with the EU. Their stance would have been the same with Labour or any other UK team. It is simply about denial of change.


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## Hobbit (Jan 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The thing is SILH, I voted out but I was 50/50 when I walked into the polling booth and I have to say that reading the hundreds of posts you have made on the issue, if anything, they have hardened my resolve to want to leave.From not accepting a democratic decision to the insults we leavers have been subjected to by you, I would definitely vote to leave a second time because you, and many like you have insulted our intelligence over and over. The lies, and counter lies, went both ways when we voted to leave it was a binary choice and had the remainers not decided to insult us with "project fear" then we might well have decided differently but then I blame Cameron for failing in his negotiations, the Eu for treating us like mugs and Parliament for abrogating their responsibilities and voting for a referendum.

The problem for me with the whole issue is that people nowadays can't accept a vote that doesn't go their way and I've rarely seen anyone interviewed who's wanted a second vote give a reason that doesn't come down to "so that we can reverse the decision as I didn't agree with it"

Clearly, to me anyway, the way that the government have handled it has been a mess, either deliberately so as to try and not really leave, or that they just dont have any ability to negotiate, and also because it should have been done from day one by a leaver so that their heart was really in it. I believe that we are seeing the end of the EU as we know it, there are other countries who's population would vote to leave and with the ever more federalism that the unelected powerbase intend to follow I certainly think other countries will eventually follow our lead. I'm for a " Common Market" , indeed I voted for it back in the day, and I understand the need for a limited amount of federalism to ensure fair play but these people have, and are, going too far and I firmly believe we will prosper in the long run.

Maybe I'm being rather simplistic in my views but think that the EU could have, and probably still could, stop us leaving by offering to resolve many of the issues Cameron tried to get them to do and then suggest a 2nd vote rather than pander to remainers wanting a 2nd vote just because they didn't like the 1st one
		
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Well said Chris, very well said.

I too stood in the polling booth facing a dilemma, and voted Remain. 3 reasons; 1) change doesn't suit big business, and the level of integration would cause problems, 2) we were about to buy in Spain, with a long term plan to live there, 3) my wife is an ardent Remainer, and I didn't want any conflict in the home.

I believe the UK could make a huge success of Leave, after the bumps in the road, for a few reasons; 1) the UK has a great economy compared to the vast majority of the EU but is being driven to the bottom by a 'forced' equalisation of economies, 2) there are bigger opportunities out there, 3) the EU is on a slide towards greater federalism, which I vehemently disagree with.

As a common trading block, with trading rules, yes yes yes and yes again. With common rules on employment, to ensure fair competition in the labour market, again a big yes. Political merging, no no no and no again. And then add a bloody big no to that.


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2019)

Still waiting for a Remainer educate me on why_ Federalism is good._........


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2019)

IanM said:



			Still waiting for a Remainer educate me on why_ Federalism is good._........
		
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Not a Remainer but I'll have a stab...

Federalism is good for Brussels as it give unfettered opportunities for widening their tentacles and with it the budget clawed to the centre from the members!!

The USA sort of works because the States' share similar societal norms, culture, language, economic basis and currency - all the reasons that caused the fracture of the USSR and threaten the EU.


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Not a Remainer but I'll have a stab...

Federalism is good for Brussels as it give unfettered opportunities for widening their tentacles and with it the budget clawed to the centre from the members!!

The USA sort of works because the States' share similar societal norms, culture, language, economic basis and currency - all the reasons that caused the fracture of the USSR and threaten the EU.
		
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 ... and for Joe Public?


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2019)

IanM said:



 ... and for Joe Public?
		
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"S..t all"!!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2019)

IanM said:



			Still waiting for a Remainer educate me on why_ Federalism is good._........
		
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If you could define what you mean/think is federalism then that would help.  I am not sure many remainers want to be completely ruled by Brussels if that is your definition. If you take the encyclopedia Britannica definition of

*Federalism*_, mode of political organization that unites separate states or other polities within an overarching political system in such a way as to allow each to maintain its own fundamental political integrity. Federal systems do this by requiring that basic policies be made and implemented through negotiation in some form, so that all the members can share in making and executing decisions. The political principles that animate federal systems emphasize the primacy of bargaining and negotiated coordination among several power centres; they stress the virtues of dispersed power centres as a means for safeguarding individual and local liberties. _

Then personally I can see some attraction in a system where people negotiate and reach a solution through some giving and taking.  As opposed to systems where the ideological political ideas are becoming more and more diverse leading to an increasing fractious relationship between opposing sides and the growth of demagogue leaders who take advantage of this increasing anger and resentment. But you know, whatevs.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 8, 2019)

I firmly believe that the UK leaving the EU will be the catalyst for other countries following suit. Unless it is radically reformed, I can't see the EU surviving.


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2019)

Federalism???  Well HK, you might have guessed that I mean the "abridged" version at the top of your post.
Why does a "trading co-op" needs a parliament, a currency, a central bank and a legal system and judicary... (etc)

Reason:  it aint a trading co-op.  Never has been.  _Google Peter Shore, Labour MP -  1975 speech - still valid_


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 8, 2019)

IanM said:



			Still waiting for a Remainer educate me on why_ Federalism is good._........
		
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As I said earlier, you must have missed it,  is not the UK basically some form of federalist state.
https://www.mytutor.co.uk/answers/11416/A-Level/Government-and-Politics/Is-Britain-a-Federal-State/


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2019)

Mmmm..a one sided article that doesnt answer the question....

But, using your response, here's a question.   If you object to the UK in princple, (as Federal) why do you think that sending power even further away (from Scotland) is acceptable?   

But, accepting your offer for the sake of respectful debate, (you might try it) having lived with the status quo for several hundred years it's all we know!  And after this time, we share a common language (of sorts) and a highly integrated economic system. 

And, as one of the most vociferous supporters of Remain on here, you STILL havent said why you think Federalism is OK.


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## Hobbit (Jan 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			If you could define what you mean/think is federalism then that would help.  I am not sure many remainers want to be completely ruled by Brussels if that is your definition. If you take the encyclopedia Britannica definition of

*Federalism*_, mode of political organization that unites separate states or other polities within an overarching political system in such a way as to allow each to maintain its own fundamental political integrity. Federal systems do this by requiring that basic policies be made and implemented through negotiation in some form, so that all the members can share in making and executing decisions. The political principles that animate federal systems emphasize the primacy of bargaining and negotiated coordination among several power centres; they stress the virtues of dispersed power centres as a means for safeguarding individual and local liberties. _

Then personally I can see some attraction in a system where people negotiate and reach a solution through some giving and taking.  As opposed to systems where the ideological political ideas are becoming more and more diverse leading to an increasing fractious relationship between opposing sides and the growth of demagogue leaders who take advantage of this increasing anger and resentment. But you know, whatevs.
		
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In principle, I agree with most of that. Picking bits out of it would only be splitting hairs. 

However, the EU defence and security policy; the EU army that already exists and operates under a central control. In the first instance, if a defence force is to be sent to, say, the Congo, the EU member states discuss it and if in agreement they send the force. If, whilst the force is there, the circumstances change and the scope of operations need to change the Commission doesn't need to ask the member states permission to change that scope.

Sorry but not in my name, or in the name of my country, do I agree to a unilateral decision made in Brussels to extend military operations. To be honest, I don't agree with having an EU defence force operating outside the EU's borders full stop!

And what I certainly don't agree with is a far greater force solely controlled by Brussels, as proposed by Juncker and fully supported by Macron and, more recently, Merkel.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2019)

IanM said:



			Federalism???  *Well HK, you might have guessed that I mean the "abridged" version at the top of your post*.
Why does a "trading co-op" needs a parliament, a currency, a central bank and a legal system and judicary... (etc)

Reason:  it aint a trading co-op.  Never has been.  _Google Peter Shore, Labour MP -  1975 speech - still valid_

Click to expand...

Well that is you interpretation of the definition. Which you are completely entitled to have and I agree with the idea that I do not want to see the EU having control over everything we do.  However where we may differ is that it is my perception through what I see in my work, play and what I consume from the media that that is not currently happening.  But if/when I feel it is then I am more than happy to leave the EU. Where as you may already think we are there.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In principle, I agree with most of that. Picking bits out of it would only be splitting hairs.

However, the EU defence and security policy; the EU army that already exists and operates under a central control. In the first instance, if a defence force is to be sent to, say, the Congo, the EU member states discuss it and if in agreement they send the force. If, whilst the force is there, the circumstances change and the scope of operations need to change the Commission doesn't need to ask the member states permission to change that scope.

Sorry but not in my name, or in the name of my country, do I agree to a unilateral decision made in Brussels to extend military operations. To be honest, I don't agree with having an EU defence force operating outside the EU's borders full stop!

And what I certainly don't agree with is a far greater force solely controlled by Brussels, as proposed by Juncker and fully supported by Macron and, more recently, Merkel.
		
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To be brutally honest, whilst I will always respect those that have served/are serving, as a concept I do not care that much about who has the final say with regards to defence forces and I can't get excited or angry about an EU defence force, certainly not the the extent that it would influence any vote on the matter.  But fully appreciate others may feel more strongly about it having had a lot more experience of them than me.


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Where as you may already think we are there.
		
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Not quite, I don't ... I said _that's where it is going_.  And that is matter of record in 

a) Recent speeches by the leaders (I posted one on here, and it was ignored)
b) Provisions of the Lisbon Treaty


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2019)

Business minister Claire Perry warns that no-deal Brexit would be â€œcatastrophicâ€ and â€œa way of crashing the economyâ€. Greg Clarke - Business Secretary - today in HoC - "No-Deal should not be contemplated".

Seems like the government ministers closest to business, and what no-deal would likely hold, are not great fans of no-deal.


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Business minister Claire Perry warns that no-deal Brexit would be â€œcatastrophicâ€ and â€œa way of crashing the economyâ€. Greg Clarke - Business Secretary - today in HoC - "No-Deal should not be contemplated".

Seems like the government ministers closest to business, and what no-deal would likely hold, are not great fans of no-deal.
		
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...and the German Car industry would instantly lose 25 billion euros in revenue over night... if we chose to enforce *RECIPROCAL* blocks.... (just for starters!)  Wonder why the UK Government isnt negotiating properly..  

......and still no word why you want to lose the UK inside a Federal Europe?


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## pendodave (Jan 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Business minister Claire Perry warns that no-deal Brexit would be â€œcatastrophicâ€ and â€œa way of crashing the economyâ€. Greg Clarke - Business Secretary - today in HoC - "No-Deal should not be contemplated".

Seems like the government ministers closest to business, and what no-deal would likely hold, are not great fans of no-deal.
		
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Of course business isn't happy, they've had an infinite supply of cheap pre-trained  labour for the last 10 years and they kind of like it that way... I suspect that those selling their labour might see things slightly differently, but their voice trends not to be heard...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 8, 2019)

IanM said:



			...and the German Car industry would instantly lose 25 billion euros in revenue over night... if we chose to enforce *RECIPROCAL* blocks.... (just for starters!)  Wonder why the UK Government isnt negotiating properly..  

......and still no word why you want to lose the UK inside a Federal Europe?
		
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I've been saying exactly this all along Ian, the EU needs us almost as much as we need them. If we play hard ball instead of allowing them to bully us I'm pretty sure there would be huge amounts of pressure for them to back down and negotiate a sensible deal.


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## Hobbit (Jan 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be brutally honest, whilst I will always respect those that have served/are serving, as a concept I do not care that much about who has the final say with regards to defence forces and I can't get excited or angry about an EU defence force, certainly not the the extent that it would influence any vote on the matter.  But fully appreciate others may feel more strongly about it having had a lot more experience of them than me.
		
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If you reread my post I said "I don't agree with an EU defence force operating outside the EU borders..." In defence of the EU, if Russia came calling, why wouldn't we? Whatever the mechanism would be in those circumstances, I'm not overly bothered myself providing each member state had an equal say.

But do we want to continue to create another Iraq or Afghanistan and all the fallout from that again?

Isn't it somewhat cynical though that that defence force can be sent anywhere in the world that has a trade agreement with the EU. Is it in defence of trade, and the EU's own interests or is it for humanitarian reasons?


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## Dando (Jan 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Business minister Claire Perry warns that no-deal Brexit would be â€œcatastrophicâ€ and â€œa way of crashing the economyâ€. Greg Clarke - Business Secretary - today in HoC - "No-Deal should not be contemplated".

Seems like the government ministers closest to business, and what no-deal would likely hold, are not great fans of no-deal.
		
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I cant take anything Claire Perry takes seriously after her shambolic time looking after the railways.

Anyway, nice to see you still not getting involved in this thread!!!!


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Labour's handing of this has been atrocious, but in the grand scheme of who has been responsible for the cluster we are currently in then Labour is not really at the top of the list and should not really deserve a 'in particular', you could have ended your sentence after the word politicians and it would have been fine . Concentrate on the mess made by the side who are in government and who have been calling all the shots.  And if you are a supporter of said Tory party, have a long hard look at them instead of singling out the opposition. As some may argue blaming others for our own misfortune is kind of what led us to this position. Also you could make the argument that labour should represent the view of their members, whatever it is this week.
		
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Not a lover of any political party at this time however my point is that Labour have made it clear that they will be voting against any deal even if it's gold plated. How can anyone successfully negotiate when it's obvious that there is this attitude going on.

Because of the Momentum support, mostly 18-40's, Corbyn has now got a major  problem as he has been a staunch advocate of leaving the EU for years but his new base support are remainers.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 8, 2019)

IanM said:



			Mmmm..a one sided article that doesnt answer the question....

But, using your response, here's a question.   If you object to the UK in princple, (as Federal) why do you think that sending power even further away (from Scotland) is acceptable?  

But, accepting your offer for the sake of respectful debate, (you might try it) having lived with the status quo for several hundred years it's all we know!  And after this time, we share a common language (of sorts) and a highly integrated economic system.

And, as one of the most vociferous supporters of Remain on here, you STILL havent said why you think Federalism is OK.
		
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Pretty obvious...â€¦.. I would prefer a fairer EU federalism to a distinctly unfair UK near federalism where Scotland's voice in parliament is constantly unheard.
In the EU we would be welcomed as an equal partner of 26 countries. In the UK, like NI and Wales, we are certainly not an equal partner.


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2019)

Scotland unheard?  Blair gave you a parliament, a bigger PC budget than England and MPs vote on Engish matters although the opposite doesnt apply.  Wee Krankie rules eh?  *You even had a vote on leaving the UK all togther.*... and the majority said no.  Scotland was heard.... sorry you hate the outcome.

How would EU Federalism be better when the Scottish MEPs have an even lower proportional presence that the current combination of Holyrood and Westminster?

BUT - respect for saying you want Scotland to be a State within a Federal EU.  Not sure why you want it, but hey thats cool...


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In principle, I agree with most of that. Picking bits out of it would only be splitting hairs.

However, the EU defence and security policy; the EU army that already exists and operates under a central control. In the first instance, if a defence force is to be sent to, say, the Congo, the EU member states discuss it and if in agreement they send the force. If, whilst the force is there, the circumstances change and the scope of operations need to change the Commission doesn't need to ask the member states permission to change that scope.

Sorry but not in my name, or in the name of my country, do I agree to a unilateral decision made in Brussels to extend military operations. To be honest, I don't agree with having an EU defence force operating outside the EU's borders full stop! And what I certainly don't agree with is a far greater force solely controlled by Brussels, as proposed by Juncker and fully supported by Macron and, more recently, Merkel.
		
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You wouldn't have to worry! By the time Brussels had beggared about and tried to herd/ coordinate the 27 nations ( and decided the UK military should standup) whatever 'problem' was happening would have ended or succeeded!
Modern warfare is about agilility - not a word I fear matches with the EU !!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 8, 2019)

IanM said:



			Scotland unheard?  Blair gave you a parliament, a bigger PC budget than England and MPs vote on Engish matters although the opposite doesnt apply.  Wee Krankie rules eh?  *You even had a vote on leaving the UK all togther.*... and the majority said no.  Scotland was heard.... sorry you hate the outcome.

How would EU Federalism be better when the Scottish MEPs have an even lower proportional presence that the current combination of Holyrood and Westminster?

BUT - respect for saying you want Scotland to be a State within a Federal EU.  Not sure why you want it, but hey thats cool...
		
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Sorry you lost the argument with Wee Krankieâ€¦â€¦.disappointed in you.


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Pretty obvious...â€¦.. I would prefer a fairer EU federalism to a distinctly unfair UK near federalism where Scotland's voice in parliament is constantly unheard.
In the EU we would be welcomed as an equal partner of 26 countries. In the UK, like NI and Wales, we are certainly not an equal partner.
		
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That is the best example of a "chip-on-the-shoulder! rant I've read in a while. With devolved powers and enhanced funding Scotland enjoys positive discrimination!


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry you lost the argument with Wee Krankieâ€¦â€¦.disappointed in you.

Click to expand...

The absence of a resonse to any of the rest confirms not.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Pretty obvious...â€¦.. I would prefer a fairer EU federalism to a distinctly unfair UK near federalism where Scotland's voice in parliament is constantly unheard.
In the EU we would be welcomed as an equal partner of 26 countries. In the UK, like NI and Wales, we are certainly not an equal partner.
		
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I'm not sure by what measure you'd be an equal partner. Based on the population of Scotland you'd get approximately 13 or 14 MEPs out of a total of over 700. Why would Scotland's voice be heard more when you're 5.5 million people out of 450+ million rather than 80 million?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			That is the best example of a "chip-on-the-shoulder! rant I've read in a while. With devolved powers and enhanced funding Scotland enjoys positive discrimination!
		
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We do not have devolved power we only have certain powers devolved that Westminster deem appropriate.
Enhanced funding, well that is up for serious debate and not what you believe in the Tory press BritishBC headlines.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The thing is SILH, I voted out but I was 50/50 when I walked into the polling booth and I have to say that reading the hundreds of posts you have made on the issue, if anything, they have hardened my resolve to want to leave.From not accepting a democratic decision to the insults we leavers have been subjected to by you, I would definitely vote to leave a second time because you, and many like you have insulted our intelligence over and over. The lies, and counter lies, went both ways when we voted to leave it was a binary choice and had the remainers not decided to insult us with "project fear" then we might well have decided differently but then I blame Cameron for failing in his negotiations, the Eu for treating us like mugs and Parliament for abrogating their responsibilities and voting for a referendum.
		
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Surely there is a lot of what you say also from people who voted Leave - you point to what SILH says but then you could easily point to another promiment poster on here on the Leave side who has at times been as aggressive and insulting towards people who voted remain - and surely you as a strong person arent that swayed by one person view and opinion ? Surely not ?

You mention lies about "project fear" - well can it be judge lies yet because we havent left ? was it not a forecast ? Same as the promises of the big red bus ?




			The problem for me with the whole issue is that people nowadays can't accept a vote that doesn't go their way and I've rarely seen anyone interviewed who's wanted a second vote give a reason that doesn't come down to "so that we can reverse the decision as I didn't agree with it"
		
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I thought that being in a democracy people are able to voice their opinion - and if people want a second vote because they think they think the result is bad for the country surely its their democratic right to demand another one - just because one vote has happened doesnt mean thats the end.




			Clearly, to me anyway, the way that the government have handled it has been a mess, either deliberately so as to try and not really leave, or that they just dont have any ability to negotiate, and also because it should have been done from day one by a leaver so that their heart was really in it. I believe that we are seeing the end of the EU as we know it, there are other countries who's population would vote to leave and with the ever more federalism that the unelected powerbase intend to follow I certainly think other countries will eventually follow our lead. I'm for a " Common Market" , indeed I voted for it back in the day, and I understand the need for a limited amount of federalism to ensure fair play but these people have, and are, going too far and I firmly believe we will prosper in the long run.
		
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All the "leavers" who were at the forefront of the campaign hid away when it came to action - they were all words but no bottle to go through with it. May took up the mantle to try and do the best she can and since then she has been hampered every step of the way and once again promiment Leavers hide away.




			Maybe I'm being rather simplistic in my views but think that the EU could have, and probably still could, stop us leaving by offering to resolve many of the issues Cameron tried to get them to do and then suggest a 2nd vote rather than pander to remainers wanting a 2nd vote just because they didn't like the 1st one
		
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Yes the EU could just do everything we say - but why should they ? We are the ones who want to walk away


Overall for me its been a mess from day one

From Cameron trying to sort things out

To the poor smear campaigning on both sides with neither being mature enough to provide facts

To the vote which was that close it was always going to cause issues

To the negotiations with people like JOhnson running away and sniping from the background - countless people resigning and undermining the whole process

Said it before - its a complete shambles and we are an embaressment right now as a country

Look at these Leave campaigners - shouting insults at MP's


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789601


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

Hopefully that's not short term memory lose. The remainers were equally as bad when they abused RM children while they were trying to get to school.

Any form of harassment by yobs like this is unacceptable but it is strange that the latest incident has caused so much media and parliamentary coverage while the RM incident blew over within hours.


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## IanM (Jan 8, 2019)

Understand that Phil...............I think the "what" is clear ....I don't suppose we'll ever find out the "why."


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Hopefully that's not short term memory lose. The remainers were equally as bad when they abused RM children while they were trying to get to school.

Any form of harassment by yobs like this is unacceptable but it is strange that the latest incident has caused so much media and parliamentary coverage while the RM incident blew over within hours.
		
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Who is RM ?



IanM said:



			Understand that Phil...............I think the "what" is clear ....I don't suppose we'll ever find out the "why."
		
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Sorry im confused ?( not hard  )


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Hopefully that's not short term memory lose. The remainers were equally as bad when they abused RM children while they were trying to get to school.

Any form of harassment by yobs like this is unacceptable but it is *strange that the latest incident has caused so much media and parliamentary coverage* while the RM incident blew over within hours.
		
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The tragic incident with Jo Cox probably means MPs are a little sensitive to right wing extremists hassling them?


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely there is a lot of what you say also from people who voted Leave - you point to what SILH says but then you could easily point to another promiment poster on here on the Leave side who has at times been as aggressive and insulting towards people who voted remain - and surely you as a strong person arent that swayed by one person view and opinion ? Surely not ?

You mention lies about "project fear" - well can it be judge lies yet because we havent left ? was it not a forecast ? Same as the promises of the big red bus ?



*I thought that being in a democracy people are able to voice their opinion - and if people want a second vote because they think they think the result is bad for the country surely its their democratic right to demand another one - just because one vote has happened doesnt mean thats the end.*

Click to expand...

Absolutely ridiculous comment Phil; on that basis we'd have a General Election every week because the losers don't like the result of last week's General Election.




Liverpoolphil said:



			All the "leavers" who were at the forefront of the campaign hid away when it came to action - they were all words but no bottle to go through with it. May took up the mantle to try and do the best she can and since then she has been hampered every step of the way and once again promiment Leavers hide away.



Yes the EU could just do everything we say - but why should they ? We are the ones who want to walk away


Overall for me its been a mess from day one

From Cameron trying to sort things out

To the poor smear campaigning on both sides with neither being mature enough to provide facts

To the vote which was that close it was always going to cause issues

To the negotiations with people like JOhnson running away and sniping from the background - countless people resigning and undermining the whole process

Said it before - its a complete shambles and we are an embaressment right now as a country

*Look at these Leave campaigners - shouting insults at MP's*


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789601

Click to expand...

Whereas a campaign and posters based on the tagline "Bollocks to Brexit" is perfectly civilised and acceptable?


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## MegaSteve (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Look at these Leave campaigners - shouting insults at MP's


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789601

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And, how many of the whinging MPs sat schtum when leavers were having insults lobbed at them during nearly every QT in the run up to the vote.. 

Can't be having it both ways.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Absolutely ridiculous comment Phil; on that basis we'd have a General Election every week because the losers don't like the result of last week's General Election.
		
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I said people have the right to ask for another vote - telling people to just shut up isnt very democratic.




			Whereas a campaign and posters based on the tagline "Bollocks to Brexit" is perfectly civilised and acceptable?
		
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Again i didnt say it was - hence why i said smear campaigning on both side


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## Hobbit (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely there is a lot of what you say also from people who voted Leave - you point to what SILH says but then you could easily point to another promiment poster on here on the Leave side who has at times been as aggressive and insulting towards people who voted remain - and surely you as a strong person arent that swayed by one person view and opinion ? Surely not ?

You mention lies about "project fear" - well can it be judge lies yet because we havent left ? was it not a forecast ? Same as the promises of the big red bus ?

I thought that being in a democracy people are able to voice their opinion - and if people want a second vote because they think they think the result is bad for the country surely its their democratic right to demand another one - just because one vote has happened doesnt mean thats the end.
		
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I think some of George Osbourne's lies were obvious within months of the vote. "There'll be an emergency budget after the vote if the decision is to Leave," and "every family will be Â£4200 worse off within a year of the vote," and 800,000 people will lose their jobs."

Both sides lied, and both sides have projections that we won't know are lies till after Brexit. Having a willy waving contest about who lied the most achieves jack.

Democracy; raise a proposal, vote on the proposal, enact the result of the vote is what democracy is. It isn't lets have a second vote because we don't like the first vote. But just because lemmings say we voted to jump off a cliff doesn't mean the lemmings got it right. Democracy says enact the result of the vote. Common sense says in light of new evidence we might want a parachute.


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## Slime (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I thought that being in a democracy people are able to voice their opinion - and* if people want a second vote because they think they think the result is bad for the country surely its their democratic right to demand another one* - just because one vote has happened doesnt mean thats the end.
		
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Surely you're not being serious .......................... surely.
If that's how democracy works, in your view, absolutely* nothing *would ever get done.
I think that's heading fast towards a total state of anarchy.


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2019)

So LP suggests 'the people want a second vote' and it should be allowed because it would be democratic!! 

I'd like to know who are 'the people' I guess w need a vote to decide if the majority actually want another vote before we can say another referendum would be democratic


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			The tragic incident with Jo Cox probably means MPs are a little sensitive to right wing extremists hassling them?
		
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While left wing extremists can get away with it. I presume that's because they haven't murdered anyone that we know of.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who is RM ?



Sorry im confused ?( not hard  )
		
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Rees-Mogg


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## bluewolf (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			While left wing extremists can get away with it. I presume that's because they haven't murdered anyone that we know of.
		
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I find that it helps your cause if you don't murder people. But that's just me. Some people may disagree.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

Slime said:



			If that's how democracy works, in your view, absolutely* nothing *would ever get done.
		
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The EU in action.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I find that it helps your cause if you don't murder people. But that's just me. Some people may disagree.
		
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I did say that we know off.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Pretty obvious...â€¦.. I would prefer a fairer EU federalism to a distinctly unfair UK near federalism where Scotland's voice in parliament is constantly unheard.
In the EU we would be welcomed as an equal partner of 26 countries. In the UK, like NI and Wales, we are certainly not an equal partner.
		
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Your thoughts that Scotland would be an equal partner of 26 countrys is delusional. Do you think that Italy and Greece are " equal".


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## Mudball (Jan 8, 2019)

I feel sorry for Maybot.. Parliament wonâ€™t pass her bill and now it has limited what she can do to prepare for no-deal. 
If ever someone wants to look up for Harakiri in the dictionary..


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			While left wing extremists can get away with it. I presume that's because they haven't murdered anyone that we know of.
		
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You asked why parliament were making such a big thing of it. I answered because one of their colleagues has recently been murdered by a right wing extremist.  If you take that as me saying that left wing extremists can get away with anything then I'd argue that's more your problem then mine.  Weirdly enough you can abhor both without making it into a competition.


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## Dando (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely there is a lot of what you say also from people who voted Leave - you point to what SILH says but then you could easily point to another promiment poster on here on the Leave side who has at times been as aggressive and insulting towards people who voted remain - and surely you as a strong person arent that swayed by one person view and opinion ? Surely not ?

You mention lies about "project fear" - well can it be judge lies yet because we havent left ? was it not a forecast ? Same as the promises of the big red bus ?



I thought that being in a democracy people are able to voice their opinion - and if people want a second vote because they think they think the result is bad for the country surely its their democratic right to demand another one - just because one vote has happened doesnt mean thats the end.


All the "leavers" who were at the forefront of the campaign hid away when it came to action - they were all words but no bottle to go through with it. May took up the mantle to try and do the best she can and since then she has been hampered every step of the way and once again promiment Leavers hide away.



Yes the EU could just do everything we say - but why should they ? We are the ones who want to walk away


Overall for me its been a mess from day one

From Cameron trying to sort things out

To the poor smear campaigning on both sides with neither being mature enough to provide facts

To the vote which was that close it was always going to cause issues

To the negotiations with people like JOhnson running away and sniping from the background - countless people resigning and undermining the whole process

Said it before - its a complete shambles and we are an embaressment right now as a country

Look at these Leave campaigners - shouting insults at MP's


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789601

Click to expand...

What promise was on the side of the bus?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2019)

Slime said:



			Surely you're not being serious .......................... surely.
If that's how democracy works, in your view, absolutely* nothing *would ever get done.
I think that's heading fast towards a total state of anarchy.
		
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Please read actually what I said 



drdel said:



			So LP suggests 'the people want a second vote' and it should be allowed because it would be democratic!!

I'd like to know who are 'the people' I guess w need a vote to decide if the majority actually want another vote before we can say another referendum would be democratic 

Click to expand...

I believe you should also read what I said 


Both are clear examples of issues with the whole thing - they only read what they want to read and make judgements from that


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## chrisd (Jan 8, 2019)

Dando said:



			What promise was on the side of the bus?
		
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The one that Farage said, some time before the vote, was erroneous and that he didn't  agree with it[/QUOTE]


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			While left wing extremists can get away with it. I presume that's because they haven't murdered anyone that we know of.
		
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I donâ€™t think anyone has said anyone can get away with anything - and I didnt think it was a competition.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe its indicative that the majority of Scots voted Remain... simples really.
		
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I didn't.


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## bluewolf (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I did say that we know off.
		
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I'm not sure how to respond to that. You seem to be saying that people should be presumed guilty until proven innocent.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely there is a lot of what you say also from people who voted Leave - you point to what SILH says but then you could easily point to another promiment poster on here on the Leave side who has at times been as aggressive and insulting towards people who voted remain
		
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 Why dont you just drop it, you are just stirring it due to your personal predujice.  Move on Man.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I'm not sure how to respond to that. You seem to be saying that people should be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
		
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No, In a round about way just saying it's funny how we tend to forget about the left wing who have been far more disruptive and violent than the right in the past few years and possibly have a far greater following.

Not in favor of either group but it would be good to see just a little balance.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I donâ€™t think anyone has said anyone can get away with anything - and I didnt think it was a competition.
		
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No it's not been a comp, but you seem to have a tendency to point out the few bad boys from the leave side and forget there are just as many nasty Herbert's in the leave side.


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## bluewolf (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			No, In a round about way just saying it's funny how we tend to forget about the left wing who have been far more disruptive and violent than the right in the past few years and possibly have a far greater following.

Not in favor of either group but it would be good to see just a little balance.
		
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Really? How have the Far Left been more disruptive than the Far Right?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			No it's not been a comp, but you seem to have a tendency to point out the few bad boys from the leave side and forget there are just as many nasty Herbert's in the leave side.
		
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I posted what I have seen in the news , it appears that the far right people have been a bit more pro active in their â€œabuseâ€
And the far left seem a bit more â€œ peaceful in their protestsâ€ whilst very vocal

I havent seen remainers screaming abuse at MPâ€™s calling them traitors and naziâ€™s and I donâ€™t know what abuse Rees Moog bloke got apart from an upset bloke on the radio informing him that hold up in customs stop his now passed away wife from getting some crucial medical supplies from the US

So far only a far right member has murdered someone so I guess MPâ€™s will be a bit more jumpy when they get called Nazi and Traitors etc

But If there are examples of the replicant behaviour from the leave â€œherbertsâ€ then Iâ€™m sure you will post them


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Really? How have the Far Left been more disruptive than the Far Right?
		
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I'm not going to ask you to trawl through the media to prove your point and I'm not going to to prove mine. We both (I presume) follow the news.


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## bluewolf (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not going to ask you to trawl through the media to prove your point and I'm not going to to prove mine. We both (I presume) follow the news.
		
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Yes, and I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that the Far Left have been far worse than the Far Right.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I posted what I have seen in the news , it appears that the far right people have been a bit more pro active in their â€œabuseâ€
And the far left seem a bit more â€œ peaceful in their protestsâ€ whilst very vocal

I havent seen remainers screaming abuse at MPâ€™s calling them traitors and naziâ€™s and I donâ€™t know what abuse Rees Moog bloke got apart from an upset bloke on the radio informing him that hold up in customs stop his now passed away wife from getting some crucial medical supplies from the US

So far only a far right member has murdered someone so I guess MPâ€™s will be a bit more jumpy when they get called Nazi and Traitors etc

But If there are examples of the replicant behaviour from the leave â€œherbertsâ€ then Iâ€™m sure you will post them
		
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You really have no knowledge of seeing the incident involving the Rees-Mogg children. Very strange as it did make the national news.

As to a small group of hooligans abusing politicians being right wing, seems strange that they are right wing when the are accusing the MP of being a Nazi, sort of thing you hear from left wing folk.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I posted what I have seen in the news , it appears that the far right people have been a bit more pro active in their â€œabuseâ€
And the far left seem a bit more â€œ peaceful in their protestsâ€ whilst very vocal

I havent seen remainers screaming abuse at MPâ€™s calling them traitors and naziâ€™s and I* donâ€™t know what abuse Rees Moog bloke got* apart from an upset bloke on the radio informing him that hold up in customs stop his now passed away wife from getting some crucial medical supplies from the US

So far only a far right member has murdered someone so I guess MPâ€™s will be a bit more jumpy when they get called Nazi and Traitors etc

But If there are examples of the replicant behaviour from the leave â€œherbertsâ€ then Iâ€™m sure you will post them
		
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Some left wing activist started telling his kids that his daddy is a nasty man and also that no one likes him, among other things.  To be fair to Rees-Mogg he didn't run away and even seemed to keep his kids outside whilst this nut job was ranting away when he could have let them in his house. Rees-Mogg then played it down a bit.  I'd argue if we have to play top trumps then the abuse was not as threatening in terms of it's physical delivery than the stuff Soubry got, and the protester against Rees-Mogg was more sad ranting old man than threatening.  But on the other hand the nut job targeted his kids which is kind of repulsive.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You really have no knowledge of seeing the incident involving the Rees-Mogg children. Very strange as it did make the national news.

As to a small group of hooligans abusing politicians being right wing, seems strange that they are right wing when the are accusing the MP of being a Nazi, sort of thing you hear from left wing folk.
		
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Nope sorry didnâ€™t hear anything about Rees Moog children but have looked it up and itâ€™s not right 

But itâ€™s not just MP â€˜s that are being abused outside Parliament currently though is it - they are appearing to target a lot 

Apologies this has swearing in it 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1082310884070965250


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You really have no knowledge of seeing the incident involving the Rees-Mogg children. Very strange as it did make the national news.

*As to a small group of hooligans abusing politicians being right wing, seems strange that they are right wing when the are accusing the MP of being a Nazi, sort of thing you hear from left wing folk*.
		
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The main chap is called James Goddard, who is described here as '_his social media presence and pages on crowd-funding websites appears to paint a picture of a pro-Brexit, anti-Muslim activist with a love of confrontation, a propensity to believe in conspiracy theories, and a fondness for the far-right activist Tommy Robinson.'  _

So again you may argue it's not conclusive proof he is a far right nut job as I can see you are in deep here and need to keep digging, but I'd at least wager a bet he's not a member of the lib dems....

_https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...NvbS8&guce_referrer_cs=favCIOvgZ5YFbnYt0KsxCA _


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I said people have the right to ask for another vote - telling people to just shut up isnt very democratic.



Again i didnt say it was - hence why i said smear campaigning on both side
		
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No you didn't actually say it was; you just loaded your response with enough specific examples of Leave behaviour, and none from Remain, to imply it was one way traffic.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

Happy family's then.

We are agreed that nobody should be abusing anyone whether they come from the right, left or center.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			No you didn't actually say it was; you just loaded your response with enough specific examples of Leave behaviour, and none from Remain, to imply it was one way traffic.
		
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Umm yes I did 

This is exactly what I said 

*

To the poor smear campaigning on both sides with neither being mature enough to provide facts*



And wasnâ€™t the post I replied to implying it was â€œone way trafficâ€ ?


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			The main chap is called James Goddard, who is described here as '_his social media presence and pages on crowd-funding websites appears to paint a picture of a pro-Brexit, anti-Muslim activist with a love of confrontation, a propensity to believe in conspiracy theories, and a fondness for the far-right activist Tommy Robinson.'  _

So again you may argue it's not conclusive proof he is a far right nut job as I can see you are in deep here and need to keep digging, but I'd at least wager a bet he's not a member of the lib dems....

_https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...NvbS8&guce_referrer_cs=favCIOvgZ5YFbnYt0KsxCA _

Click to expand...

The bit you have highlighted was more in fun than anything purely on the fact that right wingers were calling people Nazis but obviously that bit was missed.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely there is a lot of what you say also from people who voted Leave - you point to what SILH says but then *you could easily point to another promiment poster on here on the Leave side who has at times been as aggressive and insulting towards people who voted remain* - and surely you as a strong person arent that swayed by one person view and opinion ? Surely not ?

You mention lies about "project fear" - well can it be judge lies yet because we havent left ? was it not a forecast ? Same as the promises of the big red bus ?



I thought that being in a democracy people are able to voice their opinion - and if people want a second vote because they think they think the result is bad for the country surely its their democratic right to demand another one - just because one vote has happened doesnt mean thats the end.


*All the "leavers" who were at the forefront of the campaign hid away when it came to action* - *they were all words but no bottle to go through with it.* May took up the mantle to try and do the best she can and since then she has been hampered every step of the way and* once again promiment Leavers hide away.*



Yes the EU could just do everything we say - but why should they ? We are the ones who want to walk away


Overall for me its been a mess from day one

From Cameron trying to sort things out

To the poor smear campaigning on both sides with neither being mature enough to provide facts

To the vote which was that close it was always going to cause issues

To the negotiations with* people like JOhnson running away and sniping from the background *- countless people resigning and undermining the whole process

Said it before - its a complete shambles and we are an embaressment right now as a country

*Look at these Leave campaigners - shouting insults at MP's*


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789601

Click to expand...

That's all of what you said Phil, one line about smears on both sides doesn't disguise the loading.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Happy family's then.

We are agreed that nobody should be abusing anyone whether they come from the right, left or *center*.
		
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I would be genuinely interested in any links that show a group of Lib Dems physically threatening people as they don't feel that the imagination and effort of entrepreneurs and workers alike are harnessed to the full, not held back by low pay, discrimination, inequality or a lack of support for training and innovation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			That's all of what you said Phil, one line about smears on both sides doesn't disguise the loading.
		
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Which was countering what Chris was saying about being insulted by remain people ?

Chrisâ€™s post was quiteloaded one way as well 

Is there anything I have said false ?


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which was countering what Chris was saying about being insulted by remain people ?

Chrisâ€™s post was quiteloaded one way as well

Is there anything I have said false ?
		
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Chris's post was not loaded, it was calmly and politely explaining, to one poster in particular, why he voted and would vote again as he did.  It was nowhere near as loaded as yours.


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## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I would be genuinely interested in any links that show a group of Lib Dems physically threatening people as they don't feel that the imagination and effort of entrepreneurs and workers alike are harnessed to the full, not held back by low pay, discrimination, inequality or a lack of support for training and innovation.
		
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I haven't been the one pigeon holing anyone deliberately as leaning any particular way. Personally I couldn't see a Lib Dem getting out of bed to do anything worth while - but hey ho, in case it offends, it's a joke.


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## Slime (Jan 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Please read actually what I said*



I believe you should also read what I said
Both are clear examples of issues with the whole thing - they only read what they want to read and make judgements from that
		
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I did, hence my response.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2019)

I dislike the way Anna Sourbry was tuselled at close quarters, the surrounding Police should have kept control.  Its a matter of weighing up what is free speech and where that crosses the line of reasonable behaviour.

In saying this I don't hold much respect for her, she represents a constituency that voted 53% Leave in the referendum and although she is under no compulsion to vote in accordance with their will she should be more considerate of their view rather than being in the vanguard of the Remain camp.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2019)

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...958/ministers-discuss-prospect-break-uk-event

Goodness me the penny has finally dropped.
Is this what Brexit supporters voted for?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dislike the way Anna Sourbry was tuselled at close quarters, the surrounding Police should have kept control.  Its a matter of weighing up what is free speech and where that crosses the line of reasonable behaviour.

*In saying this I don't hold much respect for her, she represents a constituency that voted 53% Leave in the referendum and although she is under no compulsion to vote in accordance with their will she should be more considerate of their view rather than being in the vanguard of the Remain camp*.
		
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As a resident of her constituency I can shed a bit of light on that.  She was very clear at the last election on her feelings towards Brexit and was elected by a narrow margin over the Labour candidate. The area has flip flopped a bit between Labour and the Conservatives over the years but she has been elected at the last 3 elections I think. The area is relatively diverse and you will find large pockets of leave supporters and also pockets of remainers, it is not one homogeneous area. This is reflected in the Brexit referendum where you got 55% (not 53 as originally stated) voting for leave. Which as we well know, is a victory but is not a massive mandate. 

Whilst there will always be a debate on whether an MP should follow their very clear and stated principles that got them elected or change those views based on the Brexit vote, one could argue that she has always been very consistent.  And to change that would make her look like a complete fraud IMHO. I have never voted for her and probably never will, but expecting her change her views on a 55%-45% margin is not something I agree with.  And if she is so out of touch with her constituents then I expect she will go in the next general election which will occur around March time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			As a resident of her constituency I can shed a bit of light on that.  She was very clear at the last election on her feelings towards Brexit and was elected by a narrow margin over the Labour candidate. The area has flip flopped a bit between Labour and the Conservatives over the years but she has been elected at the last 3 elections I think. The area is relatively diverse and you will find large pockets of leave supporters and also pockets of remainers, it is not one homogeneous area. This is reflected in the Brexit referendum where you got 55% (not 53 as originally stated) voting for leave. Which as we well know, is a victory but is not a massive mandate.

Whilst there will always be a debate on whether an MP should follow their very clear and stated principles that got them elected or change those views based on the Brexit vote, one could argue that she has always been very consistent.  And to change that would make her look like a complete fraud IMHO. I have never voted for her and probably never will, but expecting her change her views on a 55%-45% margin is not something I agree with.  And if she is so out of touch with her constituents then I expect she will go in the next general election which will occur around March time.
		
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I agree, looks like the Government will be hamstrung by parliament after the no deal Brexit and a general election will take place in the early spring.
Not great news for Scots who want independence but at least we will see a higher SNP presence at Westminster with a hung parliament.
Interesting times ahead,.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			As a resident of her constituency I can shed a bit of light on that.  She was very clear at the last election on her feelings towards Brexit and was elected by a narrow margin over the Labour candidate. The area has flip flopped a bit between Labour and the Conservatives over the years but she has been elected at the last 3 elections I think. The area is relatively diverse and you will find large pockets of leave supporters and also pockets of remainers, it is not one homogeneous area. This is reflected in the Brexit referendum where you got 55% (not 53 as originally stated) voting for leave. Which as we well know, is a victory but is not a massive mandate.

Whilst there will always be a debate on whether an MP should follow their very clear and stated principles that got them elected or change those views based on the Brexit vote, one could argue that she has always been very consistent.  And to change that would make her look like a complete fraud IMHO. I have never voted for her and probably never will, but expecting her change her views on a 55%-45% margin is not something I agree with.  And if she is so out of touch with her constituents then I expect she will go in the next general election which will occur around March time.
		
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I think you agreed with me?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I agree, looks like the Government will be hamstrung by parliament after the no deal Brexit and a general election will take place in the early spring.
*Not great news for Scots who want independence* but at least we will see a higher SNP presence at Westminster with a hung parliament.
Interesting times ahead,.
		
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No they don't, they voted against it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2019)

Anyone watch 'The Uncivil War' ?
I found it interesting, especially the Cummings part.
Basically Leave won by targeting individuals on line [sometimes illegally] with advertising slogans.
Interesting also that Cummings now regrets what he did. says it was rubbish, and leaving the EU was a mistake.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone watch 'The Uncivil War' ?
I found it interesting, especially the Cummings part.
*Basically Leave won by targeting individuals on line* [sometimes illegally] with advertising slogans.
Interesting also that Cummings now regrets what he did. says it was rubbish, and leaving the EU was a mistake.
		
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They didn't get my vote by targeting me online, I wonder how many people voted leave due to being targeted this way, I suspect very few if any. This is another attempt to suggest the referendum was unfair due to leave voters being too dense to understand what they were voting for.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...958/ministers-discuss-prospect-break-uk-event

Goodness me the penny has finally dropped.
Is this what Brexit supporters voted for?
		
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Isn't it a teensy bit hypocritical for someone who actively, and very vocally, supports breaking up the UK to be critical of Brexit voters because it might lead to the break up of the UK?


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone watch 'The Uncivil War' ?
I found it interesting, especially the Cummings part.
Basically Leave won by targeting individuals on line [sometimes illegally] with advertising slogans.
Interesting also that Cummings now regrets what he did. says it was rubbish, and leaving the EU was a mistake.
		
Click to expand...

No, leave won cos more folk wanted to Leave!   Despite the Govt spending millions telliing you to vote Remain, despite the BBC taking cash from the EU "in grants" and Mr Soros backing it with goodness knows what................... and the ongoing campaign, and slanted TV progs likes this


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			They didn't get my vote by targeting me online,* I wonder how many people voted leave due to being targeted this way, I suspect very few if any*. This is another attempt to suggest the referendum was unfair due to leave voters being too dense to understand what they were voting for.
		
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It is impossible to quantify the impact of the targeted on line messaging, adds or bots on Twitter, both in Brexit and the US elections. No one will admit to voting due to being persuaded by adds or messages and everyone will claim that they have voted using a careful and considered analysis of the facts.  But in reality it does not work like that.  It is not a case as you claim of people being 'too dense' as everyone is impacted in some way by advertising, IQ is not a way of indicating how susceptible people are, there are plenty of people with high IQs who like their views being reinforced in their echo chamber or respond to advertising by say Titliest or Callaway I expect. 

The only unfairness would come if those actions were illegal and whilst there were overspending issues, plus the murky world of Cambridge Analytica, the concept of sending out targeted messages is not illegal. But as I have said before, whilst I expect some of it is just scaremongering, the increasingly sophisticated use of this type of persuasion by untraceable sources to me is the greatest threat to democracy we have at the moment.  This is an example.  https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-facebook-ads-mainstream-chequers-89up-dcms The actual message they are getting across is not relevant, but the process to me is very worrying.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't it a teensy bit hypocritical for someone who actively, and very vocally, supports breaking up the UK to be critical of Brexit voters because it might lead to the break up of the UK?
		
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Or looking at it another way....'Staunch' Unionists voting to take back control by dragging NI and Scotland out of the EU and forcing them out of the UK.


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2019)

*In a campaign, which would you prefer to use?*

- On line messaging a small % of the electoratorate

or 

- An offical Government booklet telling you how to vote
- The state broadcaster's daily output
- Having 3 times the budget of the other side

....hmmm, I wonder, and which one will they make a TV programme about ?    Almost funny


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

IanM said:



*In a campaign, which would you prefer to use?*

- On line messaging a small % of the electoratorate

or

- An offical Government booklet telling you how to vote
- The state broadcaster's daily output
- Having 3 times the budget of the other side

....hmmm, I wonder, and which one will they make a TV programme about ?    Almost funny
		
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How about a film "On the Buses Goes Brexit"
Come on Boris, Get this Bus Aaat!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2019)

IanM said:



*In a campaign, which would you prefer to use?*

- On line messaging a small % of the electoratorate

or

- An offical Government booklet telling you how to vote
- The state broadcaster's daily output
- Having 3 times the budget of the other side

....hmmm, I wonder, and which one will they make a TV programme about ?    Almost funny
		
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The TV programme acting was good though...â€¦.very uncanny similarities of those involved, especially Banks, Carswell and Farage.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The TV programme acting was good though...â€¦.very uncanny similarities of those involved, especially Banks, Carswell and Farage.

Click to expand...

Did Corbyn sound like a Dalek


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Or looking at it another way....'Staunch' Unionists voting to take back control by dragging NI and Scotland out of the EU and* forcing them out of the UK.*

Click to expand...

Did I miss that vote were NI and Scotland were forced out of the UK ?

Doubt I will get an answer

So can anyone explain this vote yesterday? Radio were saying it means that a â€œno dealâ€ is increasingly unlikely ?


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

IanM said:



*In a campaign, which would you prefer to use?*

- On line messaging a small % of the electoratorate

or

- An offical Government booklet telling you how to vote
- The state broadcaster's daily output
- Having 3 times the budget of the other side

....hmmm, I wonder, and which one will they make a TV programme about ?    Almost funny
		
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Not wanting to disagree, but the 3 items you listed for the Remain side were blunt and easily avoidable. The online targeted adverts, Allegedly using illegally harvested data is much more incisive and serves to reinforce viewpoints. As much as I hate it, there's no doubting its efficacy in areas such as this.


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did I miss that vote were NI and Scotland were forced out of the UK ?

Doubt I will get an answer

So can anyone explain this vote yesterday? Radio were saying it means that a â€œno dealâ€ is increasingly unlikely ?
		
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As far as I can see, the chances of a No Deal are just as likely as before, we just can't talk about it or prepare for it.. 

You can't diminish the chances of the default fall back position. It's what will happen once the time runs out and either a deal has not been agreed or Article 50 has not been revoked/delayed..


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Not wanting to disagree, *but the 3 items you listed for the Remain side were blunt and easily avoidable.* The online targeted adverts, Allegedly using illegally harvested data is much more incisive and serves to reinforce viewpoints. As much as I hate it, there's no doubting its efficacy in areas such as this.
		
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One of them was posted through every letterbox in the land, not very avoidable.


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			One of them was posted through every letterbox in the land, not very avoidable.
		
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You didn't have to read it.. Like most Government leaflets, the vast majority will have just thrown it in the bin..

However, if you are bombarded on Facebook with articles telling you that the bogeyman is coming to take your jobs (and strangely enough your benefits), then it's very hard to avoid them all..


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Not wanting to disagree, but the 3 items you listed for the Remain side were blunt and easily avoidable. The online targeted adverts, Allegedly using illegally harvested data is much more incisive and serves to reinforce viewpoints. As much as I hate it, there's no doubting its efficacy in areas such as this.
		
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Not worked in advertising have you?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



*You didn't have to read it*.. Like most Government leaflets, the vast majority will have just thrown it in the bin..

However, if you are bombarded on Facebook with articles telling you that the bogeyman is coming to take your jobs (and strangely enough your benefits), then it's very hard to avoid them all..
		
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You don't have to read everything on facebook, or even use facebook but we all have a letterbox.  I suspect in the case of that particular booklet most people will have read it, especially after the amount of airtime put into promoting it.


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

IanM said:



			Not worked in advertising have you?
		
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No, I haven't. I take it that you have then?

All I have to base my opinions on are those pesky experts that no one seems to like anymore


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You don't have to read everything on facebook, or even use facebook but we all have a letterbox.  I suspect in the case of that particular booklet most people will have read it, especially after the amount of airtime put into promoting it.
		
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But the booklet arrived once. The Facebook advertising was repeated and tailored to your existing mindset. It was also on Google, Twitter, Instagram etc.. It's scalpel sharp and very effective. It's also much much cheaper than traditional advertising.. Unless of course you're saying it doesn't work, in which case I wouldn't tell Google and Facebook as they make billions out of it.


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2019)

...........and "Leavers" are predominately old white folk....probably not are the most suceptable sector to on line influence?    Apologies if the earlier reply seemed brusque... 

..and yes, I have worked in advertising...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 9, 2019)

Interesting vote has just occurred. An amendment now means that if (read when) TM's Brexit bill gets defeated next week the govt will have to come back with a plan B within 3 days. 

MP's are going to get a greater say on what is going to happen, good or bad?, so TM can no longer attempt to railroad her deals through parliament. All options back on the table methinks. This could either make a deeper mess or clear things up. Not sure which though.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did I miss that vote were NI and Scotland were forced out of the UK ?

Doubt I will get an answer

So can anyone explain this vote yesterday? Radio were saying it means that a â€œno dealâ€ is increasingly unlikely ?
		
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That would be the Brexit vote when many leave voters in England and Wales voted without having a clue as to how it would effect NI and Scotland.

NI was always going to be a problem from day one.
The government ignored it for as long as they could hoping that the rUK would not give a stuff about them.

The no deal vote yesterday will hamstring the government as many spending issues would have to have a majority vote in Parliament.
Leading to a vote of no confidence and a spring election and probably a hung Parliament with the SNP taking over the DUP position in a SNP/LAB coalition government.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That would be the Brexit vote when many leave voters in England and Wales voted without having a clue as to how it would effect NI and Scotland.

NI was always going to be a problem from day one.
The government ignored it for as long as they could hoping that the rUK would not give a stuff about them.

The no deal vote yesterday will hamstring the government as many spending issues would have to have a majority vote in Parliament.
Leading to a vote of no confidence and a spring election and probably a hung Parliament with the SNP taking over the DUP position in a SNP/LAB coalition government.

Click to expand...

Sorry but my Brexit vote was all about leaving Europe - said nothing about Scotland and NI leaving the UK ? I canâ€™t remember seeing that option on the ballot sheet.

I do remember a recent vote for Scotland to leave the UK - I recall the vote result was to stay in the UK , NI have not had a vote - so your comment was complete nonsense and false as per normal


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Interesting vote has just occurred. An amendment now means that if (read when) TM's Brexit bill gets defeated next week the govt will have to come back with a plan B within 3 days.

MP's are going to get a greater say on what is going to happen, good or bad?, so TM can no longer attempt to railroad her deals through parliament. All options back on the table methinks. This could either make a deeper mess or clear things up. Not sure which though.
		
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Plan 'B'  we will have further discussions with the EU.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Plan 'B'  we will have further discussions with the EU.
		
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Can it be as bland as that? The journo's will be spinning over this one. Lots going on.


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

IanM said:



			...........and "Leavers" are predominately old white folk....probably not are the most suceptable sector to on line influence?    Apologies if the earlier reply seemed brusque...

..and yes, I have worked in advertising...
		
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No need to apologise. I took it in the way it was meant 

I thought that we couldn't say that Leavers were predominantly old white folk? 

Also, if I use my "old white folk" parents as an example, they are most definitely the most susceptible to online advertising. I swear they'd believe the sky was green if an article on Facebook claimed it..


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but my Brexit vote was all about leaving Europe - said nothing about Scotland and NI leaving the UK ? I canâ€™t remember seeing that option on the ballot sheet.

I do remember a recent vote for Scotland to leave the UK - I recall the vote result was to stay in the UK , NI have not had a vote - so your comment was complete nonsense and false as per normal
		
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So you believe that the folk in England who voted for Brexit were knowingly aware of the problems that it would bring to NI
Naw..it would not have been anywhere near their radar.


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2019)

...and I could suguest that the barrage of other stuff I mentioned would have an equal or greater influence... (BBC in particular)  When you consider the relative cost of advertising across those other media Remain had it pretty good!  (much better than Leave)

I voted Leave and I'm 55!  Does that count as old?  (not on a golf site!  )


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you believe that the folk in England who voted for Brexit were knowingly aware of the problems that it would bring to NI
Naw..it would not have been anywhere near their radar.
		
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....only because attempts to block Brexit have brought NI into it!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you believe that the folk in England who voted for Brexit were knowingly aware of the problems that it would bring to NI
Naw..it would not have been anywhere near their radar.
		
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 PS The Scottish independence vote was well over 4 years ago now...hardly recent when they say a week in politics is a long time.
A lot has happened in 4 years.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 9, 2019)

IanM said:



			...and I could suguest that the barrage of other stuff I mentioned would have an equal or greater influence... (BBC in particular)  When you consider the relative cost of advertising across those other media Remain had it pretty good!  (much better than Leave)

I voted Leave and I'm 55!  Does that count as old?  (not on a golf site!  )
		
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SO you must also agree that the BBC bias during the Scottish Independence vote was also well out of order.
Or is that when bias is OK.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No need to apologise. I took it in the way it was meant 

I thought that we couldn't say that Leavers were predominantly old white folk?

Also, if I use my "old white folk" parents as an example,* they are most definitely the most susceptible to online advertising*. I swear they'd believe the sky was green if an article on Facebook claimed it..
		
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Mine just believe any old rubbish they read in the Daily Telegraph....


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you believe that the folk in England who voted for Brexit were knowingly aware of the problems that it would bring to NI
Naw..it would not have been anywhere near their radar.
		
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You can apply that logic to all parts. Do the people of NI care what happens in the NE of England? Do those in Glasgow care about the impact in Kent? The NI issue should still be resolvable, that it hasn't is more about politics than a lack of an actual way of doing it.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2019)

IanM said:



			...and I could suguest that the barrage of other stuff I mentioned would have an equal or greater influence...* (BBC in particular)*  When you consider the relative cost of advertising across those other media Remain had it pretty good!  (much better than Leave)

I voted Leave and I'm 55!  Does that count as old?  (not on a golf site!  )
		
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Both sides accuse the BBC of bias in brexit.  https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...dcasting-corporation-how-remainers-turned-bbc https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/11/bbc-andrew-neil-media-politics https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...Radio-5-Live-Emma-Barnett-show-Barry-Gardiner https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/politics/2019/01/10/kawczynski-hits-out-at-bbc-brexit-bias/

And I can pretty much guarantee you will agree with 2 of those links and disagree vehemently with the other 2.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 9, 2019)

IanM said:



			...........and "Leavers" are predominately *old white folk.*...probably not are the most suceptable sector to on line influence?    Apologies if the earlier reply seemed brusque...

..and yes, I have worked in advertising...
		
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Would that be old white folk like me who aren't on Twitter or Facebook...?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you believe that the folk in England who voted for Brexit were knowingly aware of the problems that it would bring to NI
Naw..it would not have been anywhere near their radar.
		
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You are just dribbling on now - you made a statement that NI and Scotland are being forced out of the UK - I would like you to actually justify that statement or for once admit it is false

A vote was taken to leave the EU - no vote has been taken to break up the UK. The UK as one is leaving the EU - if Scotland or NI want to leave the UK then they can have a vote on it and then as was said last time itâ€™s a â€œonce in a generationâ€ vote.



IanM said:



			...and I could suguest that the barrage of other stuff I mentioned would have an equal or greater influence... (BBC in particular)  When you consider the relative cost of advertising across those other media Remain had it pretty good!  (much better than Leave)

I voted Leave and I'm 55!  Does that count as old?  (not on a golf site!  )
		
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What about the â€œbiasâ€ from certain red top media publications - I firmly believe that they hold quite a significant influence on certain people and wasnâ€™t one or two of them heavily on the side of leave ? 

Both sides have accused the BBC of being biased ?! How do they manage to be bias for both sides ?


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SO you must also agree that the BBC bias during the Scottish Independence vote was also well out of order.
Or is that when bias is OK.

Click to expand...

Of course I agreee.... if that was their position.   (and I dont actually know their position as I dont get BBC Scotland)  

  A state broadcaster funded by a compulsory license must be impartial...... ours is not

Eg  If you hate Fox News/Sky News, you dont have to buy it.  No such choice with the BBC.


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Both sides accuse the BBC of bias in brexit.  https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...dcasting-corporation-how-remainers-turned-bbc https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/11/bbc-andrew-neil-media-politics https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...Radio-5-Live-Emma-Barnett-show-Barry-Gardiner https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/politics/2019/01/10/kawczynski-hits-out-at-bbc-brexit-bias/

And I can pretty much guarantee you will agree with 2 of those links and disagree vehemently with the other 2.
		
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...and if the BBC stopped taking Cash from the EU, I'd have some sympathy


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## MegaSteve (Jan 9, 2019)

Not that it was in any doubt... But, in case my thoughts needed any reinforcing... Seeing 'saint' Bob bellowing insults at regular working folk was plenty for me... Or, just in case that wasn't sufficient... Lib/dems using "lazy British workers" as justification for their stance...

Meanwhile, in the news, Halifax report a small rise in house prices... No sign of the promised crash following a vote to exit...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You don't have to read everything on facebook, or even use facebook but we all have a letterbox.  I suspect in the case of that particular booklet most people will have read it, especially after the amount of airtime put into promoting it.
		
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...that'll be the booklet that the Leave campaign told voters to ignore as all the warnings, downsides and inevitabilities in it were all just one Great Big Project Fear. Yes - thought that that was the one.  

I note that, in respect of leaving the EU, the booklet actually says _'The Government judges it could result in 10 years or more of uncertainty as the UK unpicks our relationship with the EU and renegotiates new arrangements with the EU and over 50 other countries around the world. Some argue that we could strike a good deal quickly with the EU because they want to keep access to our market. But the Governmentâ€™s judgement is that it would be much harder than that.  A more limited trade deal with the EU would give the UK less access to the Single Market than we have now'_

So when we look back at what the official government position on Brexit was the above indicates that the expectation was clearly set out that the UK *would *negotiate a deal with the EU that gave access to the Single Market.  And I doubt we will get that under _No Deal_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but my Brexit vote was all about leaving Europe - said nothing about Scotland and NI leaving the UK ? I canâ€™t remember seeing that option on the ballot sheet.

I do remember a recent vote for Scotland to leave the UK - I recall the vote result was to stay in the UK , NI have not had a vote - so your comment was complete nonsense and false as per normal
		
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...and one of the main planks for No in the Scottish Referendum was that only by Scotland staying in the UK could membership of the EU be guaranteed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No need to apologise. I took it in the way it was meant 

I thought that we couldn't say that Leavers were predominantly old white folk?

Also, if I use my "old white folk" parents as an example, they are most definitely the most susceptible to online advertising. I swear they'd believe the sky was green if an article on Facebook claimed it..
		
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...and my 86 yr old M-i-L was going to vote to Leave because her 85+ yr old friends Mrs Turner and Mrs Witham were voting that way - because the Daily Mail told them to...sad but true...no need for Facebook and other Social Media peddling lies, scare stories, fears and misinformation for that group.

In the end my M-i-L didn't vote as her 21yrs old and 24yrs old grandchidren asked her not to vote to Leave.


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## NWJocko (Jan 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and one of the main planks for No in the Scottish Referendum was that only by Scotland staying in the UK could membership of the EU be guaranteed.
		
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It is embarrassing that you and Doon keep peddling this line.

At the point of the Indy ref, before Brexit was even considered an option, that was the only way to guarantee membership of the EU.

Please, please stop embarrassing yourself (and reinforcing the chip on shoulder stereotype of us Scots) by using this


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2019)

NWJocko said:



			It is embarrassing that you and Doon keep peddling this line.

At the point of the Indy ref, before Brexit was even considered an option, that was the only way to guarantee membership of the EU.

Please, please stop embarrassing yourself (and reinforcing the chip on shoulder stereotype of us Scots) by using this
		
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Just saying that the circumstances - as you agree - have changed...as have things since 23rd June 2016.

And I'll thank you - I am not embarrassing myself - I'll be the judge of that - thank you.


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## chrisd (Jan 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just saying that the circumstances - as you agree - have changed...as have things since 23rd June 2016.

And I'll thank you - I am not embarrassing myself - I'll be the judge of that - thank you.
		
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To be fair, I think we are all in a position to judge given the number of posts you have made in this thread


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## USER1999 (Jan 9, 2019)

So 3 days after the vote on TMs deal is thrown out, what new proposal do the MPs think is going to be on the table. The EU have said that is the deal. No deal is apparently not acceptable. Norway have said no to a Norway style deal. Canada +++ is not available. Putting off art 50 is procrastinating, as nothing can change. A new referendum would cause chaos, and a referendum on what? Recalling art 50, and then wait for what? Remain, as leaving appears a bit difficult, but ignores the original referendum result.

It appears to me that Parliament are just making this even messier. May be having them vote on this has not been the best idea afterall.


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

All they've done is make No Deal even more likely. They didn't even realise what they were voting for. They're all idiots.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			So 3 days after the vote on TMs deal is thrown out, what new proposal do the MPs think is going to be on the table. The EU have said that is the deal. No deal is apparently not acceptable. Norway have said no to a Norway style deal. Canada +++ is not available. Putting off art 50 is procrastinating, as nothing can change. A new referendum would cause chaos, and a referendum on what? Recalling art 50, and then wait for what? Remain, as leaving appears a bit difficult, but ignores the original referendum result.

It appears to me that Parliament are just making this even messier. May be having them vote on this has not been the best idea afterall.
		
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My money is on a postponement of article 50, a general election and then we'll try again with hopefully a new lot of politicians running it.  As for who that will be then chuff knows.


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

Genuine question to the educated few on here. 
How are British Farmers going to operate successfully after a No Deal Brexit? 

They'll have no EU subsidies. They'll have a huge new competitor on their doorstep. They won't be able to compete financially due to the harsher growing conditions in the U.K.  

All I can foresee is a spiralling cycle of government subsidies allowing them to compete, or a huge number going to the wall as they will never be able to compete. 

I trust there's someone on here who can show me how this will be solved without the need to significantly increase food prices.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			All they've done is make No Deal even more likely. They didn't even realise what they were voting for. They're all idiots.
		
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MPs or Leave voters?


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			MPs or Leave voters? 

Click to expand...

From my viewpoint, everyone's just a different degree of idiot. ðŸ˜‚


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## drdel (Jan 9, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			So 3 days after the vote on TMs deal is thrown out, what new proposal do the MPs think is going to be on the table. The EU have said that is the deal. No deal is apparently not acceptable. Norway have said no to a Norway style deal. Canada +++ is not available. Putting off art 50 is procrastinating, as nothing can change. A new referendum would cause chaos, and a referendum on what? Recalling art 50, and then wait for what? Remain, as leaving appears a bit difficult, but ignores the original referendum result.

It appears to me that Parliament are just making this even messier. May be having them vote on this has not been the best idea afterall.
		
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Yes but our 'man of the people' Mr Corbyn has hopes of pushing for a general election that will then allow him to renegotiate a 'deal' (despite EU saying no) and get it through HoC in 70odd days, before March 29th.


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## drdel (Jan 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			PS The Scottish independence vote was well over 4 years ago now...hardly recent when they say a week in politics is a long time.
A lot has happened in 4 years.
		
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In the spirit of fairness and democratic process, when the 'break-up' of the UK comes about as you wish in order for Scotland to gain its independence, is there any chance we little Englanders can have a vote this time?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Genuine question to the educated few on here.
How are British Farmers going to operate successfully after a No Deal Brexit?

They'll have no EU subsidies. They'll have a huge new competitor on their doorstep. They won't be able to compete financially due to the harsher growing conditions in the U.K. 

All I can foresee is a spiralling cycle of government subsidies allowing them to compete, or a huge number going to the wall as they will never be able to compete.

I trust there's someone on here who can show me how this will be solved without the need to significantly increase food prices.
		
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The govt has said they will match subsidies for a period. After that, can't remember how long, they will alter how subsidies are handed out so that they work better. This will include maintenance of the countryside, environmental concerns as well as for food production. 

The competitor on the doorstep is the same one as now, no difference there.

New Zealand scrapped it's farming subsidies some years ago. The farming sector there is stronger for it. I don't know if we can go that far but hopefully we will wean the sector off them over time.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			My money is on a postponement of article 50, *a general election and then we'll try again* with hopefully a new lot of politicians running it.  As for who that will be then chuff knows.
		
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Do you honestly think anything would change with a different government? What really is Labours policy on the EU? What would be the Tories policy? Worst bunch of self serving half wits in living memory.


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## chrisd (Jan 9, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Do you honestly think anything would change with a different government? What really is Labours policy on the EU? What would be the Tories policy? Worst bunch of self serving half wits in living memory.
		
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Labour have no other agenda than to use the situation to gain power, they really dont care for the will of the people regarding the referendum  - they are a bunch of chancers!


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Labour have no other agenda than to use the situation to gain power, they really dont care for the will of the people regarding the referendum  - they are a bunch of chancers!
		
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There are suggestions that Labour will table a no confidence motion if May's deal is voted down next week. If the vote went against her she would then get to set the date of the general election. Brexiteers are pushing her to set a date in early April. Parliament would be dissolved in the run up to the election meaning that there would be no sitting MPs on 29th March when we're due to leave the EU so there is nothing that they could do to prevent a no deal exit and we'd leave on that date by default. Interesting times ahead.


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## chrisd (Jan 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			There are suggestions that Labour will table a no confidence motion if May's deal is voted down next week. If the vote went against her she would then get to set the date of the general election. Brexiteers are pushing her to set a date in early April. Parliament would be dissolved in the run up to the election meaning that there would be no sitting MPs on 29th March when we're due to leave the EU so there is nothing that they could do to prevent a no deal exit and we'd leave on that date by default. Interesting times ahead.
		
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Could do that I guess, not sure that she'd stand for PM in that instance


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Could do that I guess, not sure that she'd stand for PM in that instance
		
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I'm not sure that she would actually do it and force through a no deal Brexit but is there any chance that just the threat of it would be enough for her to get backing for her deal? It could be leaked that if her deal gets voted down and there is a vote of no confidence in the government she would set the election date for 2nd April effectively guaranteeing a no deal Brexit. Would the threat of that be enough for some of those opposing her deal to change their minds and actually support her in the vote?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

Would a vote of no confidence win, turkeys don't vote for christmas and I think the DUP has said they would not support it.


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## chrisd (Jan 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure that she would actually do it and force through a no deal Brexit but is there any chance that just the threat of it would be enough for her to get backing for her deal? It could be leaked that if her deal gets voted down and there is a vote of no confidence in the government she would set the election date for 2nd April effectively guaranteeing a no deal Brexit. Would the threat of that be enough for some of those opposing her deal to change their minds and actually support her in the vote?
		
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I'm thinking that if she feels she'll lose she may abandon leaving for the short term


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...that'll be the booklet that the Leave campaign told voters to ignore as all the warnings, downsides and inevitabilities in it were all just one Great Big Project Fear. Yes - thought that that was the one.

I note that, in respect of leaving the EU, the booklet actually says _'The Government judges it could result in 10 years or more of uncertainty as the UK unpicks our relationship with the EU and renegotiates new arrangements with the EU and over 50 other countries around the world. Some argue that we could strike a good deal quickly with the EU because they want to keep access to our market. But the Governmentâ€™s judgement is that it would be much harder than that.  A more limited trade deal with the EU would give the UK less access to the Single Market than we have now'_

So when we look back at what the official government position on Brexit was the above indicates that the expectation was clearly set out that the UK *would *negotiate a deal with the EU that gave access to the Single Market.  And I doubt we will get that under _No Deal_

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Thats it the Project fear booklet, you got it.  If you recall the booklet also promised to carry out the result of the referendum if the result was to leave.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Would a vote of no confidence win, turkeys don't vote for christmas and I think the DUP has said they would not support it.
		
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At the minute there are predicted to be more than a dozen Tory MPs that would back the vote of no confidence. Whether they would actually go through with it when push comes to shove is the big question.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Genuine question to the educated few on here.
How are British Farmers going to operate successfully after a No Deal Brexit?

They'll have no EU subsidies. They'll have a huge new competitor on their doorstep. They won't be able to compete financially due to the harsher growing conditions in the U.K.

All I can foresee is a spiralling cycle of government subsidies allowing them to compete, or a huge number going to the wall as they will never be able to compete.

I trust there's someone on here who can show me how this will be solved without the need to significantly increase food prices.
		
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I believe we will continue with matched subsidies, as a net contributor to the EU we currently fund them anyway.   What is this huge new competitor on the doorstep?   If the EU apply tariffs to UK farming produce then we could encourage more domestic sales to reduce our imports while discouraging imports of EU produce on a like for like basis.    I am not sure about the UK  having harsher growing conditions, our climate is fairly temperate for growing.  No doubt there will be hurdles to climb but we are an ingenious nation and will get over them.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			At the minute there are predicted to be more than a dozen Tory MPs that would back the vote of no confidence. Whether they would actually go through with it when push comes to shove is the big question.
		
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Could you really see them voting in a manner that would give Labour and Corbyn the chance of 5 years in government?  Im sure she would scrape through a confidence vote.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

One thing Brexit has highlighted to me is a growing realisation of  how bad these people are that represent us in Parliament, both in the Commons and the House of Lords. They really are a bunch of self gratifying  wasters and this runs through all the political parties. They are really unfit for purpose and incapable of representing the general public. Before Doon jumps in this is particularly true of SNP.

The complete system needs some radical reform but the system is so loaded its almost impossible for the electorate to get any change, I think we need some candidates coming forward who would be determined to push through radical reform such that we get real representation through less party politics and a breakdown of the childish baying mob mindset. I dont have the answers to exactly how this could be achieved but for the security of the people we should change the locks next time there is a parliamentary recess.  How worse could it be?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			One thing Brexit has highlighted to me is a growing realisation of  how bad these people are that represent us in Parliament, both in the Commons and the House of Lords. They really are a bunch of self gratifying  wasters and this runs through all the political parties. They are really unfit for purpose and incapable of representing the general public. Before Doon jumps in this is particularly true of SNP.

The complete system need some radical reform but the system is so loaded its almost impossible for the electorate to get any change, I think we need some candidates coming forward who would be determined to push through radical reform such that we get real representation through less party politics and a breakdown of the childish baying mob mindset. I dont have the answers to exactly how this could be achieved but for the security of the people we should change the locks next time there is a parliamentary recession.  How worse could it be?
		
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Anna Sourbry is a classic example of a "self gratifying waster" . Her constituents voted to leave Europe. The People of this country voted to leave. But she sees fit to bang the pro EU drum. If she believes in it that strongly, she should of resigned as an MP. What was the point of having a vote if your MP disregards the will of there constituents.


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe we will continue with matched subsidies, as a net contributor to the EU we currently fund them anyway.   What is this huge new competitor on the doorstep?   If the EU apply tariffs to UK farming produce then we could encourage more domestic sales to reduce our imports while discouraging imports of EU produce on a like for like basis.    I am not sure about the UK  having harsher growing conditions, our climate is fairly temperate for growing.  No doubt there will be hurdles to climb but we are an ingenious nation and will get over them.
		
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Unfortunately, this answer, along with LT's answer earlier misses some rather important facts. 

The huge agri-conglomerate EU is now a competitor, whereby it was a Partner. 

Once we start factoring in subsidies to a free market economy, we'll never be able to stop. The Farmers will never be able to make their farms profitable as the cost of their products will be kept artificially low. 

And the comparison to New Zealand is unfortunate. Before they went free market, they were in a Government backed, guaranteed price system whereby the Taxpayer effectively subsidised food production by allowing the Government to purchase all produce at a minimum price. Even if that minimum price was substantially higher (and it routinely was) than the market price. When they eventually dropped this policy, they were fortunate enough to have the worlds 2nd largest economy, coupled with the largest population effectively on their doorstep. China took everything they grew at a fair market price, allowing the NZ farms to invest in methods and machinery. We most certainly do not have this luxury. We'd be attempting to sell our produce into an already serviced market. We could only do this by reducing the price further, requiring more government subsidies. An ever spiralling debt cycle.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, this answer, along with LT's answer earlier misses some rather important facts.

The huge agri-conglomerate EU is now a competitor, whereby it was a Partner.

Once we start factoring in subsidies to a free market economy, we'll never be able to stop. The Farmers will never be able to make their farms profitable as the cost of their products will be kept artificially low.

And the comparison to New Zealand is unfortunate. Before they went free market, they were in a Government backed, guaranteed price system whereby the Taxpayer effectively subsidised food production by allowing the Government to purchase all produce at a minimum price. Even if that minimum price was substantially higher (and it routinely was) than the market price. When they eventually dropped this policy, they were fortunate enough to have the worlds 2nd largest economy, coupled with the largest population effectively on their doorstep. China took everything they grew at a fair market price, allowing the NZ farms to invest in methods and machinery. We most certainly do not have this luxury. We'd be attempting to sell our produce into an already serviced market. We could only do this by reducing the price further, requiring more government subsidies. An ever spiralling debt cycle.
		
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Hold on a minute. You were concerned Farmers would not get the current EU subsidies. I explained how this could still be possible.  Maybe I have misunderstood you, if not please clarify.


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## Hobbit (Jan 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, this answer, along with LT's answer earlier misses some rather important facts.

The huge agri-conglomerate EU is now a competitor, whereby it was a Partner.

Once we start factoring in subsidies to a free market economy, we'll never be able to stop. The Farmers will never be able to make their farms profitable as the cost of their products will be kept artificially low.

And the comparison to New Zealand is unfortunate. Before they went free market, they were in a Government backed, guaranteed price system whereby the Taxpayer effectively subsidised food production by allowing the Government to purchase all produce at a minimum price. Even if that minimum price was substantially higher (and it routinely was) than the market price. When they eventually dropped this policy, they were fortunate enough to have the worlds 2nd largest economy, coupled with the largest population effectively on their doorstep. China took everything they grew at a fair market price, allowing the NZ farms to invest in methods and machinery. We most certainly do not have this luxury. We'd be attempting to sell our produce into an already serviced market. We could only do this by reducing the price further, requiring more government subsidies. An ever spiralling debt cycle.
		
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I'm a bit lost on the huge agri-conglomerate EU ever being a partner. I guess I'm missing your point...

To me, even UK farmers compete with each other, let alone those in France etc with UK farmers. And farmers in France, Netherlands, Germany compete internally as well as externally. They sell at the best price they can get - go along to any cattle market and you'll see it in practice. The only similarities are in the EU subsidies farmers receive.

Sorry, I'm lost, you'll have to explain that one to me.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 9, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Anna Sourbry is a classic example of a "self gratifying waster" . Her constituents voted to leave Europe. The People of this country voted to leave. But she sees fit to bang the pro EU drum. If she believes in it that strongly, she should of resigned as an MP. What was the point of having a vote if your MP disregards the will of there constituents.
		
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See my earlier reply to SR who made the same ish point. She campaigned in the recent general election on a very remain campaign, everyone knew where she stood on the EU. And she got elected.

So to now change her stance would be silly. If her constituents, if which I am one, feel she does not represent their views then she will not be reelected. The leave vote was 55 to 45 in her constituency, so whilst there were obviously more leave voters, it was not a resounding mandate to leave.

Plus I think around 47% of people in Rees-Moggs constituency voted to stay and that does not seem to bother him.


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm a bit lost on the huge agri-conglomerate EU ever being a partner. I guess I'm missing your point...

To me, even UK farmers compete with each other, let alone those in France etc with UK farmers. And farmers in France, Netherlands, Germany compete internally as well as externally. They sell at the best price they can get - go along to any cattle market and you'll see it in practice. The only similarities are in the EU subsidies farmers receive.

Sorry, I'm lost, you'll have to explain that one to me.
		
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You're referring to "local" competition between businesses on a relatively equal footing. I.E, they have the same base rules/subsidies. Once we leave the EU without a Deal, then we are no longer working from the same base. We may choose to match previous subsidies, but we will be in competition with a much larger group. In order to compete, we will either have to increase subsidies, or improve efficiencies. We both know which will have to happen, especially in the short term.

The proof of this will only be evident in the years following a No Deal Brexit. If I'm wrong, and British Farming learns to trade globally with minimal Taxpayer input then I'll pop on here and apologise. If we end up in a cycle of never ending subsidies, or mass Farmer bankruptcies then I'll pop along and see if the discussion has recognised this. I'm sure we'll all still be here whinging about it.


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## Hobbit (Jan 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			You're referring to "local" competition between businesses on a relatively equal footing. I.E, they have the same base rules/subsidies. Once we leave the EU without a Deal, then we are no longer working from the same base. We may choose to match previous subsidies, but we will be in competition with a much larger group. In order to compete, we will either have to increase subsidies, or improve efficiencies. We both know which will have to happen, especially in the short term.

The proof of this will only be evident in the years following a No Deal Brexit. If I'm wrong, and British Farming learns to trade globally with minimal Taxpayer input then I'll pop on here and apologise. If we end up in a cycle of never ending subsidies, or mass Farmer bankruptcies then I'll pop along and see if the discussion has recognised this. I'm sure we'll all still be here whinging about it.
		
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Same rules and subsidies but, for example, do you ever wonder why there's so much imported milk from Poland. Admittedly it probably doesn't keep you awake at night but the truth is the operating costs in most of eastern and Southern Europe are a lot lower than Northern Europe.

We are not partners in business, only in rules and subsidies. If you extend the argument beyond farming into the wider 'spend' of subsidies and start-up grants the UK isn't doing well out of areas of subsidies that many northern european countries think is flawed anyway. French farming is, in a lot of instances, a farce because of the inheritance laws in France. Its hugely inefficient and not cost effective but is supported by the more business orientated nations. There is no need to be efficient if someone is paying you to carry on as you are.


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## bluewolf (Jan 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Same rules and subsidies but, for example, do you ever wonder why there's so much imported milk from Poland. Admittedly it probably doesn't keep you awake at night but the truth is the operating costs in most of eastern and Southern Europe are a lot lower than Northern Europe.

We are not partners in business, only in rules and subsidies. If you extend the argument beyond farming into the wider 'spend' of subsidies and start-up grants the UK isn't doing well out of areas of subsidies that many northern european countries think is flawed anyway. French farming is, in a lot of instances, a farce because of the inheritance laws in France. Its hugely inefficient and not cost effective but is supported by the more business orientated nations. There is no need to be efficient if someone is paying you to carry on as you are.
		
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You're effectively proving the point I'm making. There are countries within the EU that can farm far more cheaply and efficiently than we can. Labour is cheaper. Their welfare standards aren't as rigorous. 
The only way we'll be able to compete with them in the short/mid term is by matching or increasing the existing subsidies. This naive dream of weaning Farmers off subsidies will never happen. They'll go to the wall within 2 years. In order to compete we'll have to increase subsidies, especially in areas in which we are a net exporter. 
Even the NFU, who represent an industry that largely voted for Brexit have stated that No Deal will be "Catastrophic".


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, this answer, along with LT's answer earlier misses some rather important facts.

The huge agri-conglomerate EU is now a competitor, whereby it was a Partner.

Once we start factoring in subsidies to a free market economy, we'll never be able to stop. The Farmers will never be able to make their farms profitable as the cost of their products will be kept artificially low.

And the comparison to New Zealand is unfortunate. Before they went free market, they were in a Government backed, guaranteed price system whereby the Taxpayer effectively subsidised food production by allowing the Government to purchase all produce at a minimum price. Even if that minimum price was substantially higher (and it routinely was) than the market price. When they eventually dropped this policy, they were fortunate enough to have the worlds 2nd largest economy, coupled with the largest population effectively on their doorstep. China took everything they grew at a fair market price, allowing the NZ farms to invest in methods and machinery. We most certainly do not have this luxury. We'd be attempting to sell our produce into an already serviced market. We could only do this by reducing the price further, requiring more government subsidies. An ever spiralling debt cycle.
		
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Farmers don't work in partnership between countries.  They are bitter competitors. They barely work together locally,  they are all fighting for the same piece of pie. Nothing has changed. 

One of the benefits of withdrawing is that UK farming subsidy will no longer go to an olive farmer on Italy. It can be targeted at areas of UK farming that need it, justifiably hopefully,  or where it benefits part of the UK for farming and beyond. The money should be better spent.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			You're effectively proving the point I'm making. There are countries within the EU that can farm far more cheaply and efficiently than we can. Labour is cheaper. Their welfare standards aren't as rigorous.
The only way we'll be able to compete with them in the short/mid term is by matching or increasing the existing subsidies. This naive dream of weaning Farmers off subsidies will never happen. They'll go to the wall within 2 years. In order to compete we'll have to increase subsidies, especially in areas in which we are a net exporter.
Even the NFU, who represent an industry that largely voted for Brexit have stated that No Deal will be "Catastrophic".
		
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The problem with current EU subsidies to Farmers its based on land area so that some of the very big farming organisations get the largest share of the money.  The current plan from Government is to continue the present levels of subsidies for some years then change the qualifying criteria to how the land is managed.   It appears many farmers prefer such a system.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presents-post-brexit-plans-for-agriculture/


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			My money is on a postponement of article 50, a general election and then we'll try again with hopefully a new lot of politicians running it.  As for who that will be then chuff knows.
		
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drdel said:



			In the spirit of fairness and democratic process, when the 'break-up' of the UK comes about as you wish in order for Scotland to gain its independence, is there any chance we little Englanders can have a vote this time?
		
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Aye... very fair ten times as many English than Scots.

BTW 10% of Scots Population are English and the Scots Nat Ultras want to ban them from voting in Indy two.
I am totally against this for two reasons, first is that I consider anyone who choses to live in Scotland is naturally a Scot. The second is that many English Scots I know are independence supporters. The two folk who influenced me to support independence were both English.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye... very fair ten times as many English than Scots.

BTW 10% of Scots Population are English and the Scots Nat Ultras want to ban them from voting in Indy two.
I am totally against this for two reasons, first is that I consider anyone who choses to live in Scotland is naturally a Scot. The second is that many English Scots I know are independence supporters. The two folk who influenced me to support independence were both English.
		
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Doon mate, I do agree with a lot of what you say on the Brexit thread, but you do seem to throw the Scottish angle in rather a lot.  And whilst I appreciate that you are very passionate about it and of course Scotland is a massive part of the UK, there is a danger that a lot of people will not take on board some of your very good points if most posts about Brexit always hark back to Scotland.


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## chrisd (Jan 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The two folk who influenced me to support independence were both English.
		
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I'm sure that quite a few of us would support you voting for independence,  after all it's the only thing you've banged on about for the past year or two.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 10, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Anna Sourbry is a classic example of a "self gratifying waster" . Her constituents voted to leave Europe. The People of this country voted to leave. But she sees fit to bang the pro EU drum. If she believes in it that strongly, she should of resigned as an MP. What was the point of having a vote if your MP disregards the will of there constituents.
		
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I watched the Leavers trying to take back control when 'debating' with Sourbry on Westminster Green the other day.
I sincerely hope that that was not a vision of our brave new world.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I watched the Leavers trying to take back control when 'debating' with Sourbry on Westminster Green the other day.
I sincerely hope that that was not a vision of our brave new world.
		
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I hope you're not either


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## Tashyboy (Jan 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I watched the Leavers trying to take back control when 'debating' with Sourbry on Westminster Green the other day.
I sincerely hope that that was not a vision of our brave new world.
		
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You see Doon how does that add owt to this thread? And you wonder why your threads are ridiculed. You are a talking about the extreme village idiots day out. We had the same with Reece Mogg the other month.


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## bluewolf (Jan 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The problem with current EU subsidies to Farmers its based on land area so that some of the very big farming organisations get the largest share of the money.  The current plan from Government is to continue the present levels of subsidies for some years then change the qualifying criteria to how the land is managed.   It appears many farmers prefer such a system.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presents-post-brexit-plans-for-agriculture/

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I've just read that article. Very informative. reading between the lines, what it actually says is that we're going to drop our current high welfare and hygiene standards, race to the bottom of the pile and allow sub standard products from countries like the US to flood our market. We're already looking to drop the independent meat inspections and allow individual abattoirs to control their own quality standards (that usually turns out well). The NFU is marketing British products based on these high standards (ironic really considering they resisted them at every step). What is the marketing ploy when we relax these standards?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I've just read that article. Very informative. reading between the lines, what it actually says is that we're going to drop our current high welfare and hygiene standards, race to the bottom of the pile and allow sub standard products from countries like the US to flood our market. We're already looking to drop the independent meat inspections and allow individual abattoirs to control their own quality standards (that usually turns out well). The NFU is marketing British products based on these high standards (ironic really considering they resisted them at every step). What is the marketing ploy when we relax these standards?
		
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You really did read between the lines, I didn't see any of the points you have raised there.   How about commenting on what it actually said on the proposed way of changing the way farming subsidies are used and how they would be more fairly distributed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye... very fair ten times as many English than Scots.

BTW 10% of Scots Population are English and the Scots Nat Ultras want to ban them from voting in *Indy two.*
I am totally against this for two reasons, first is that I consider anyone who choses to live in Scotland is naturally a Scot. The second is that many English Scots I know are independence supporters. The two folk who influenced me to support independence were both English.
		
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Did I miss that announcement that there is to be a second vote ? 


Anyway a couple of questions for people 

Can someone explain what John Bercow did the other and can one person have that much power ? 

Also i see a lot of suggestions of funding been given to this that and the other when we leave - can people really see our government giving the same level of grants and subsidies etc as what the EU were giving out ?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did I miss that announcement that there is to be a second vote ?


Anyway a couple of questions for people

Can someone explain what John Bercow did the other and can one person have that much power ?

Also i see a lot of suggestions of funding been given to this that and the other when we leave - *can people really see our government giving the same level of grants and subsidies etc as what the EU were giving out* ?
		
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I've mentioned this a number of times here, the UK is a net contributor to the EU so we only get back money we pay in; the EU in reality gives us nothing, we actually pay in 9 Billion pounds more than we get back and that includes the rebate. Why should we  not be able to fund them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Anyway a couple of questions for people

Can someone explain what John Bercow did the other and can one person have that much power ?
		
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It was a technicality. He allowed an amendment to be tabled which the MP's then voted on. If it was an awful amendment it would have been voted down but it got through. That says something.

The argument against is that the amendment should not have been allowed to have been voted on, it should have been dismissed before any vote on it. Funnily enough the people shouting Bercow down were against the amendment.

I'll emphasise again, he allowed the vote, nothing more. MP's took over after that.

His job is to speak up for the backbench MP, to prevent govt from steamrollering parliament and bypassing the elected MP's. He is probably getting it about right as far as I can see.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It was a technicality. He allowed an amendment to be tabled which the MP's then voted on. If it was an awful amendment it would have been voted down but it got through. That says something.

The argument against is that the amendment should not have been allowed to have been voted on, it should have been dismissed before any vote on it. Funnily enough the people shouting Bercow down were against the amendment.

I'll emphasise again, he allowed the vote, nothing more. MP's took over after that.

His job is to speak up for the backbench MP, to prevent govt from steamrollering parliament and bypassing the elected MP's. He is probably getting it about right as far as I can see.
		
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Bercow did allow the amendment to be voted on even though it was against the normal rules of the house and he had been advised as such by the Clerk of the house, he had also refused other amendments to be voted.    It does appear that the referee is not impartial.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I've mentioned this a number of times here, the UK is a net contributor to the EU so we only get back money we pay in; the EU in reality gives us nothing, we actually pay in 9 Billion pounds more than we get back and that includes the rebate. Why should we  not be able to fund them.
		
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That didnâ€™t really answer my question - I know we are a net contributor and I know how much money we pay into the EU - that appears to be the stock answer when someone questions the amount of money our government gives out to people in the UK

Putting it simply - before EU subsidies and EU grants our government where not putting money into many areas of the UK , once we leave the EU and with our debt why is there this expectation that the UK government will continue to fund or give grants or subsidies areas the EU did ?

Does anyone really trust the government to fill the holes left behind when EU grants and subsidies have gone even with money not being paid into the EU


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## JamesR (Jan 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...Does anyone really trust the government...
		
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I wouldn't trust this shower to manage anything - particularly to carry out Brexit or look after it's people


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Bercow did allow the amendment to be voted on even though it was against the normal rules of the house and he had been advised as such by the Clerk of the house, he had also refused other amendments to be voted.    It does appear that the referee is not impartial.
		
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I think that is a very fair point. Ultimately it was the MP's that decided though. Maybe it should happen a little more?


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## bluewolf (Jan 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Bercow did allow the amendment to be voted on even though it was against the normal rules of the house and he had been advised as such by the Clerk of the house, he had also refused other amendments to be voted.    It does appear that the referee is not impartial.
		
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Sorry, but what Bercow did was the very definition of impartial. he is the only person currently in the HOC that is able to hold his head high.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That didnâ€™t really answer my question - I know we are a net contributor and I know how much money we pay into the EU - that appears to be the stock answer when someone questions the amount of money our government gives out to people in the UK

Putting it simply - before EU subsidies and EU grants our government where not putting money into many areas of the UK , once we leave the EU and with our debt why is there this expectation that the UK government will continue to fund or give grants or subsidies areas the EU did ?

Does anyone really trust the government to fill the holes left behind when EU grants and subsidies have gone even with money not being paid into the EU
		
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Before EU subsidies!   You are going back to the 1970s, how can we compare what may happen after Brexit to what happened then?

What exactly is this 'Debt' you mention, is it the National Debt? if it is then its there whether we are in or out the EU.   Why do you believe we would not want to support industry with our own money.  Using your own logic, why would the government not give grants and subsidies,  if you dont trust your government to do this then vote for someone you think will.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, but what Bercow did was the very definition of impartial. he is the only person currently in the HOC that is able to hold his head high.
		
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Please explain to me how that works then.   He was advised not to allow it by the Clerk of the House and had disallowed others from proposing such amendments.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Before EU subsidies!   You are going back to the 1970s, how can we compare what may happen after Brexit to what happened then?

What exactly is this 'Debt' you mention, is it the National Debt? if it is then its there whether we are in or out the EU.   Why do you believe we would not want to support industry with our own money.  Using your own logic, why would the government not give grants and subsidies,  if you dont trust your government to do this then vote for someone you think will.
		
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Again you donâ€™t really answer the question- it was simple enough

And I believe the government wonâ€™t give the same level of financial support to the same level that the EU Grants or subsidies did because i donâ€™t trust them to treat all areas of the UK fairly. 

Right now a perfect example is HS2 - going to spend Â£60bn on a project that prob only helps 10/20% of the country at a guess ? Just think of what the NHS could do with that , or the homeless , or the starving etc etc - thatâ€™s are own government spending a significant amount of money to get a small percentage of people into London a bit quicker 

And it makes no difference which party is voted for - itâ€™s all the same self motive.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again you donâ€™t really answer the question- it was simple enough

And I believe the government wonâ€™t give the same level of financial support to the same level that the EU Grants or subsidies did because i donâ€™t trust them to treat all areas of the UK fairly.

Right now a perfect example is HS2 - going to spend Â£60bn on a project that prob only helps 10/20% of the country at a guess ? Just think of what the NHS could do with that , or the homeless , or the starving etc etc - thatâ€™s are own government spending a significant amount of money to get a small percentage of people into London a bit quicker

And it makes no difference which party is voted for - itâ€™s all the same self motive.
		
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 Not in favour of HS2 in anyway whatsoever... But, I'd just like to point out folk will also, in theory, be able to get to Birmingham a few minutes quicker also.. Always, assuming the bloody thing gets completed...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again you donâ€™t really answer the question- it was simple enough

And I believe the government wonâ€™t give the same level of financial support to the same level that the EU Grants or subsidies did because i donâ€™t trust them to treat all areas of the UK fairly.

Right now a perfect example is HS2 - going to spend Â£60bn on a project that prob only helps 10/20% of the country at a guess ? Just think of what the NHS could do with that , or the homeless , or the starving etc etc - thatâ€™s are own government spending a significant amount of money to get a small percentage of people into London a bit quicker

And it makes no difference which party is voted for - itâ€™s all the same self motive.
		
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I just tried to answer your question, I'm not concerned whether you trust the Government or what opinions you have on HS2.

Why did you ask a question if you dont want an answer to it, why not just make a statement.


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## drdel (Jan 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, but what Bercow did was the very definition of impartial. he is the only person currently in the HOC that is able to hold his head high.
		
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Perhaps you can explain why he felt the need to just allow one amendment yet refused an amendment proffered by Peter Bone MP (among others) because "... amendments were not being allowed..." because the Parliamentary process did not permit it? 

And, while a car he uses has an anti-Brexit sticker on the screen, it doesn't matter because its owned by his wife - so that's OK then !!!


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## PieMan (Jan 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again you donâ€™t really answer the question- it was simple enough

And I believe the government wonâ€™t give the same level of financial support to the same level that the EU Grants or subsidies did because i donâ€™t trust them to treat all areas of the UK fairly.

Right now a perfect example is HS2 - going to spend Â£60bn on a project that prob only helps 10/20% of the country at a guess ? Just think of what the NHS could do with that , or the homeless , or the starving etc etc - thatâ€™s are own government spending a significant amount of money to get a small percentage of people into London a bit quicker

And it makes no difference which party is voted for - itâ€™s all the same self motive.
		
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Ah, the exciting world of EU subsidy programmes, brings back some rather unforgettable memories..........for all the wrong reasons!!  

Unfortunately I do have some experience of how these work Phil!

But basically the EU doesn't get much say on where it is spent, just mainly how it is spent. It is still up to the Member State on how and where they will prioritise their respective allocations under each funding programme.

Here is where you can find out all about the EU funding programmes. https://europa.eu/youreurope/busine...ng-funding/eu-funding-programmes/index_en.htm.

You can also go on GOV.UK and also the websites for each Devolved Administration as to how the funding programmes are used in the UK.


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## bluewolf (Jan 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Perhaps you can explain why he felt the need to just allow one amendment yet refused an amendment proffered by Peter Bone MP (among others) because "... amendments were not being allowed..." because the Parliamentary process did not permit it?

And, while a car he uses has an anti-Brexit sticker on the screen, it doesn't matter because its owned by his wife - so that's OK then !!!
		
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Look at the facts, not the Brexiteer rhetoric..

The last time Bercow upset the Government was to allow for a push on a referendum to leave the EU. His partiality is to giving Parliament a voice..

Oh, and the fact that it's his wife's car is important. I sometimes drive my wife's car. I'm neither a member of the Nurses Union, nor a Student at Liverpool University... Attempting to smear him in this way is pathetic and unworthy of a serious discussion..

"What do we want? - Parliamentary Sovereignty"

"When do we want it? - .............Er, just when it suits...."


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## drdel (Jan 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Look at the facts, not the Brexiteer rhetoric..

The last time Bercow upset the Government was to allow for a push on a referendum to leave the EU. His partiality is to giving Parliament a voice..

Oh, and the fact that it's his wife's car is important. I sometimes drive my wife's car. I'm neither a member of the Nurses Union, nor a Student at Liverpool University... Attempting to smear him in this way is pathetic and unworthy of a serious discussion..
		
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C'mon you can't really come to that view - I watched the whole debate live yesterday and from his somewhat crimson colour, demeanour, fidgeting and expressions he clearly knew he'd pulled a fast one. I have not relied on the media or 'Brexiteer rhetoric" - can you say the same?

As to the car - he is the speaker of the HoC: his wife and he are not stupid they were obviously aware that placing such a sticker on one of their cars would promote controversy. I doubt you or your wife would choose to display contentious stickers if either of you were in such a position of Public Office. Prominent people normally understand what is wise: Bercow has long proved he is attracted to the limelight and thrives on the attention. He was a Tory member but left and he seems to have adopted the attitude of the high alter of the untouchable merely by stating he's impartial rather than by action.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			C'mon you can't really come to that view - I watched the whole debate live yesterday and from his somewhat crimson colour, demeanour, fidgeting and expressions he clearly knew he'd pulled a fast one. I have not relied on the media or 'Brexiteer rhetoric" - can you say the same?

As to the car - he is the speaker of the HoC: his wife and he are not stupid they were obviously aware that placing such a sticker on one of their cars would promote controversy. I doubt you or your wife would choose to display contentious stickers if either of you were in such a position of Public Office. Prominent people normally understand what is wise: Bercow has long proved he is attracted to the limelight and thrives on the attention. He was a Tory member but left and he seems to have adopted the attitude of the high alter of the untouchable merely by stating he's impartial rather than by action.
		
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I am impressed at your advanced body language reading, you should offer yourself up to the news channels as they love a bit of that. 

And he's like the BBC, people of both sides will see him as biased depending on if he does something you agree with or not. He did something that has little precedent, but the only real precedent we have is that parliament can do what it wants due to our rather complicated constitution. He has been constant in trying to ensure the executive does not override the legislature. And is he really the cause behind the current state we are in, again I'd suggest we all look at the bigger picture rather then blaming him.


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## drdel (Jan 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I am impressed at your advanced body language reading, you should offer yourself up to the news channels as they love a bit of that.

And he's like the BBC, people of both sides will see him as biased depending on if he does something you agree with or not. He did something that has little precedent, but the only real precedent we have is that parliament can do what it wants due to our rather complicated constitution. He has been constant in trying to ensure the executive does not override the legislature. And is he really the cause behind the current state we are in, again I'd suggest we all look at the bigger picture rather then blaming him.
		
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Thanks for the complement - but its not necessary to be an expert to observe obvious uncomfortable behaviour

Nowhere have I blamed him for anything; my post merely questions his strange decision yesterday and the wisdom of those in public office displaying contentious stickers.

In contrast to his ready acceptance of an amendment yesterday at ~15:00 hrs today he announced there would be no amendments today because  HE hadn't decided which to allow


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## drdel (Jan 10, 2019)

I see Jaguar LandRover are (reported as the UK biggest car maker- except they are Indian owned!) to be cutting 4,500 jobs mainly in UK: blaming Brexit and drastically falling sales in China.  Funnily they do no mention the 3,000 jib they're creating in Slovakia in the Factory they've planned and been building for over 3 years (And not withstanding that the products  are unreliable, primarily diesel and over priced.)

Brexit is a useful scapegoat for all and sundry.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Jaguar LandRover are (reported as the UK biggest car maker- except they are Indian owned!) to be cutting 4,500 jobs mainly in UK: blaming Brexit and drastically falling sales in China.  Funnily they do no mention the 3,000 jib they're creating in Slovakia in the Factory they've planned and been building for over 3 years (And not withstanding that the products  are unreliable, primarily diesel and over priced.)

*Brexit is a useful scapegoat for all and sundry*.
		
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I agree it is, however it can't be overlooked that those shouting in the HoC for Brexit/no-deal have been advocates of selling everything successful manufacturing in this country for years for a quick profit. Never mind that we then have no say over the jobs or placement of where those jobs are to be.


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## bluewolf (Jan 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			C'mon you can't really come to that view - I watched the whole debate live yesterday and from his somewhat crimson colour, demeanour, fidgeting and expressions he clearly knew he'd pulled a fast one. I have not relied on the media or 'Brexiteer rhetoric" - can you say the same?

As to the car - he is the speaker of the HoC: his wife and he are not stupid they were obviously aware that placing such a sticker on one of their cars would promote controversy. I doubt you or your wife would choose to display contentious stickers if either of you were in such a position of Public Office. Prominent people normally understand what is wise: Bercow has long proved he is attracted to the limelight and thrives on the attention. He was a Tory member but left and he seems to have adopted the attitude of the high alter of the untouchable merely by stating he's impartial rather than by action.
		
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I wouldn't dream of telling my wife what she could or couldn't do. She's a strong independent person and she can have whatever opinion she wants. 

Edit... Its not worth it.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 10, 2019)

Does that include his alleged bullying ?


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## bluewolf (Jan 10, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Does that include his alleged bullying ?
		
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I think the clue is in the question


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## Old Skier (Jan 10, 2019)

Bercow is a good example of what's wrong with British politicians.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 10, 2019)

Perhaps Bercow is just enjoying a bit of payback from the disgraceful way William Hague and co tried to eject him from his post with a bit of devious dealing on the final hour of the last day of the Cameron government.
I also find it rather sad that some males still think that their wives should do exactly what they tell them to do.


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## bluewolf (Jan 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Jaguar LandRover are (reported as the UK biggest car maker- except they are Indian owned!) to be cutting 4,500 jobs mainly in UK: blaming Brexit and drastically falling sales in China.  Funnily they do no mention the 3,000 jib they're creating in Slovakia in the Factory they've planned and been building for over 3 years (And not withstanding that the products  are unreliable, primarily diesel and over priced.)

Brexit is a useful scapegoat for all and sundry.
		
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Have you got a link to where JLR have blamed Brexit. I read the press releases this morning and I don't remember it being mentioned. It's a genuine request by the way. I've seen several mentions of Brexit by media outlets, but not by JLR today.


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## bluewolf (Jan 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Bercow is a good example of what's wrong with British politicians.
		
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Or, from another viewpoint, just about the only person that is actually fulfilling the role he has. He has obviously made a decision you don't like. That doesn't make it wrong.


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## drdel (Jan 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Or, from another viewpoint, just about the only person that is actually fulfilling the role he has. He has obviously made a decision you don't like. That doesn't make it wrong.
		
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Happy to agree to disagree. IMO under the circumstances in the HoC I think this it was a strange decision to go against the protocols and permit one amendment while denying others. I have no feeling,  happy or otherwise.

To those who suggest I wish to dictate to my wife:/ladies you're so wrong. You are extrapolating my comment.  I am saying, why would someone in high public office think it prudent to drive any car with a stupid contentious sticker unless you wanted it noticed by the media etc, why else would you obtain/ use such a juvenile thing. Especially when the holder Ã¯of such a position wants to be the picture of impartiality?


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## bluewolf (Jan 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Happy to agree to disagree. IMO under the circumstances in the HoC I this it was a strange decision to go against the protocols and permit one amendment while denying others. I have no feeling,  happy or otherwise.

To those who suggest I wish to dictate to my wife:/ladies you're so wrong. You are extrapolating my comment.  I am saying, why would someone in high public office think it prudent to drive any car with a stupid contentious sticker unless you wanted it noticed by the media etc. Especially when the hole of such a position wants to be the picture of impartiality?
		
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I'm also happy to agree to disagree. My personal belief is that he recognised the upcoming deadlock and also the efforts of the Executive to stifle debate and run down the clock. He took the opportunity to ensure that MP's had a vote and therefore upheld the power of Parliament over the Executive. I actually respect him for his conviction in this. He knew he'd be pilloried in certain quarters and still he did it. I'd like more politicians to stand by their principles instead of their personal ambitions. We wouldn't be in this mess if this was the case.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2019)

Bollocks to Burcow  

Edit:  My wife wrote that.


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## Mudball (Jan 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The govt has said they will match subsidies for a period. After that, can't remember how long, they will alter how subsidies are handed out so that they work better. This will include maintenance of the countryside, environmental concerns as well as for food production.

The competitor on the doorstep is the same one as now, no difference there.

New Zealand scrapped it's farming subsidies some years ago. The farming sector there is stronger for it. I don't know if we can go that far but hopefully we will wean the sector off them over time.
		
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seeing how cotton weaving, coal mining, steel and other industries across the generation had to be subsidised or have gone to the wall after privatisation.. i donâ€™t hold much hope for farming. 
Ofcourse one of the reasons may have nothing to do with Brexit - climate change


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2019)

Mudball said:



			seeing how cotton weaving, coal mining, steel and other industries across the generation had to be subsidised or have gone to the wall after privatisation.. i donâ€™t hold much hope for farming. 
Ofcourse one of the reasons may have nothing to do with Brexit - climate change
		
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The E U has been subsidising farming since its beginning. The CAP Is a massive part of EU spending if not the biggest.


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## Old Skier (Jan 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Or, from another viewpoint, just about the only person that is actually fulfilling the role he has. He has obviously made a decision you don't like. That doesn't make it wrong.
		
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If by breaking procedure rules and being a bully is fulfilling his role then who am I to complain. Whether I like or dislike his decision is something I, or it appears, anyone else can do anything about.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 10, 2019)

Looks like, with the Mann amendment, we will permanently align our environmental and employment rules with those from the EU. 

Rees-Mogg is reported to be furious that he won't be able send kids down chimneys like they did in his day.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looks like, with the Mann amendment, we will permanently align our environmental and employment rules with those from the EU.

Rees-Mogg is reported to be furious that he won't be able send kids down chimneys like they did in his day.
		
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That's a big relief for those in the banana bending industry.


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## Mudball (Jan 10, 2019)

Out of curiosity.. do the Corbinites think they can get a new deal from the EU? 
Like a different version of Maybot, his standard response is â€˜General Electionâ€™ .. so he can negotiate.  

May should get open a cross party negotiation team, get some of the Corbyns noise makers along with the likes of Rees Moggs and BoJo .. then we see what comes out of Best of Britain in â€˜Strictly come Negotiationâ€™


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Out of curiosity.. *do the Corbinites think they can get a new deal from the EU?*
Like a different version of Maybot, his standard response is â€˜General Electionâ€™ .. so he can negotiate.

May should get open a cross party negotiation team, get some of the Corbyns noise makers along with the likes of Rees Moggs and BoJo .. then we see what comes out of Best of Britain in â€˜Strictly come Negotiationâ€™
		
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Not 100% sure if there are any Corbynites on here, but a someone who is probably more favourable to labour's policies than some others, I'd say he hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell before March 29th.  if they delay Article 50 then who knows, but I doubt it will be any more favourable to the UK than the one we currently have. 

It's clear he is using this as a opportunity to further his political career.  But then again it amuses me when Tory supporters accuse him of this, ignoring the fact that that's exactly what most of the Tory party have been doing since day 1.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2019)

Ah _Remoaners _and _Brexiteers _we may be - I think I prefer _Stayers _and _Quitters _


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## bluewolf (Jan 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah _Remoaners _and _Brexiteers _we may be - I think I prefer _Stayers _and _Quitters _

Click to expand...

And this helps how exactly? I'm a Remainer and this post annoys even me.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 11, 2019)

Had this link sent to me today. I take no responsibility for it's accuracy as I know nothing about the organisation that published it but I assume they are pro Brexit. If correct it makes scary reading.

https://brexitcentral.com/dont-fooled-brexit-deal-creates-triple-lock-shackle-uk-brussels-forever/


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 11, 2019)

Hacker...you get better looking with age sweetheart


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## bluewolf (Jan 11, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Had this link sent to me today. I take no responsibility for it's accuracy as I know nothing about the organisation that published it but I assume they are pro Brexit. If correct it makes scary reading.

https://brexitcentral.com/dont-fooled-brexit-deal-creates-triple-lock-shackle-uk-brussels-forever/

Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
Anonymous civil servant writing for Brexit Central. Forget everything else you've heard, this is guaranteed to be 100% authentic! ðŸ˜‚


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Genuine question to the educated few on here.
How are British Farmers going to operate successfully after a No Deal Brexit?

They'll have no EU subsidies. They'll have a huge new competitor on their doorstep. They won't be able to compete financially due to the harsher growing conditions in the U.K.

All I can foresee is a spiralling cycle of government subsidies allowing them to compete, or a huge number going to the wall as they will never be able to compete.

I trust there's someone on here who can show me how this will be solved without the need to significantly increase food prices.
		
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Golfing buddy yesterday mentioned being close friends with Chair of local branch of NFU - and he and the NFU in general are desperately worried about what a _No Deal _would mean for farmers.  Yes- just the 'word of mouth' view of one individual close to farmers - though I suppose he could be deemed an expert on what is important to farmers in all of the Brexit shenanigans. 

Who'd have guessed that the UK operating on WTO rules might be an issue for farmers or that any tariff free arrangement under a new trade deal with whoever might cause farmers concerns.

Ah - I know - Patrick Minford (he who is the beloved by some) knows.  Unilaterally get rid of trade barriers and tariffs and UK manufacturing might as well look to shut down - and what applies to manufacturing applies equally to agriculture...

So maybe the NFU are right to be very worried for their members and UK agriculture in general.

But I mustn't worry as IDS, Johnson, RM and the ERG et al tell me all will be OK...it's all Project Fear.

BTW - I go to my GP and he tells me I need to lose weight as I am carrying around a heart attack.  I might call him out for spinning a project fear on me, and I continue on my merry way.  Not much good regretting doing that if a heart attack kills me - rather late to be reflecting on the fact that he was right and I should have listened


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And this helps how exactly? I'm a Remainer and this post annoys even me.
		
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Did you spot the smiley? 

In truth though, I can go with staying in the EU to work to change things to the benefit of the UK, rather than just quitting the fight and walking away - which is what we seem to be doing.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 11, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Hacker...you get better looking with age sweetheart 

Click to expand...

Thanks, only just worked out how to post a selfie.


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## drdel (Jan 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did you spot the smiley? 

In truth though, I can go with staying in the EU to work to change things to the benefit of the UK, rather than just quitting the fight and walking away - which is what we seem to be doing.
		
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The UK has been a fair and equitable player in the EU - we implement directives (unlike others who pick and choose). You might note the 100m sweetner the Slovakian state is 'donating' to JLR!  The UK has tried to change the EU from within for decades and got nowhere - why would they suddenly start to listen.

You want to remain for the benefit of young people ! Have you seen the state of their economies, unemployment and social cohesion in the member states. States which will want the UK to keep subsidising at an ever increasing (in real terms) rate.


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah _Remoaners _and _Brexiteers _we may be - I think I prefer _Stayers _and _Quitters _

Click to expand...

You've done this one before and it's just as insulting now, even by adding your smiley.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
Anonymous civil servant writing for Brexit Central. Forget everything else you've heard, this is guaranteed to be 100% authentic! ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...


When you have dabbed away all those laughter tears could you point out to us what parts of this article is a lie? Or is it just the "source" that's amusing?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Golfing buddy yesterday mentioned being close friends with Chair of local branch of NFU - and he and the NFU in general are desperately worried about what a _No Deal _would mean for farmers.  Yes- just the 'word of mouth' view of one individual close to farmers - though I suppose he could be deemed an expert on what is important to farmers in all of the Brexit shenanigans.

Who'd have guessed that the UK operating on WTO rules might be an issue for farmers or that any tariff free arrangement under a new trade deal with whoever might cause farmers concerns.

Ah - I know - Patrick Minford (he who is the beloved by some) knows.  Unilaterally get rid of trade barriers and tariffs and UK manufacturing might as well look to shut down - and what applies to manufacturing applies equally to agriculture...

So maybe the NFU are right to be very worried for their members and UK agriculture in general.

But I mustn't worry as IDS, Johnson, RM and the ERG et al tell me all will be OK...it's all Project Fear.

BTW - I go to my GP and he tells me I need to lose weight as I am carrying around a heart attack.  I might call him out for spinning a project fear on me, and I continue on my merry way.  Not much good regretting doing that if a heart attack kills me - rather late to be reflecting on the fact that he was right and I should have listened 

Click to expand...

Give it a rest man, we all know what hatred you are carrying around. Its not good for you.ðŸ™„


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah _Remoaners _and _Brexiteers _we may be - I think I prefer _Stayers _and _Quitters _

Click to expand...

Silly post even with the smiley.


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## bluewolf (Jan 11, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			When you have dabbed away all those laughter tears could you point out to us what parts of this article is a lie? Or is it just the "source" that's amusing?
		
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there are no relevant facts in the article. It's just an anonymous source interpreting random data in a way that best suits the preferred output of the media source.. I may as well point to a Remain media site that quotes an anonymous civil servant stating that Brexit will make elephants extinct, deck over the Channel and pave everyone's gardens to reflect sunlight and restrict global warming.. It's pointless, meaningless, nothingness.. It proves nothing and just serves to provide confirmation bias clickbait.


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## IanM (Jan 11, 2019)

I'm happy to *quit* allowing my taxes to be given to the EU to subsidise moving UK workers jobs to Eastern Europe Hoags!  Weird how our Unions are happy with it though...maybe that's why the working classes are predominately Leavers?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You've done this one before and it's just as insulting now, even by adding your smiley.

View attachment 26323

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A little curious that many Leave voters (not necessarily on this forum) seem more than happy to continue to describe as '_Remoaners_' those who voted to stay, but are not happy at being referred to as '_Quitters_' - even though the UK is indeed quitting the EU.   But there you go.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 11, 2019)

IanM said:



			I'm happy to *quit* allowing my taxes to be given to the EU to subsidise moving UK workers jobs to Eastern Europe Hoags!  Weird how our Unions are happy with it though...maybe that's why the working classes are predominately Leavers?
		
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I suspect that nowadays the majority of union members are in the public sector and not necessarily concerned about their jobs being spirited away overseas...


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## Hobbit (Jan 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A little curious that many Leave voters (not necessarily on this forum) seem more than happy to continue to describe as '_Remoaners_' those who voted to stay, but are not happy at being referred to as '_Quitters_' - even though the UK is indeed quitting the EU.   But there you go.
		
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Maybe its because Leavers have been insulted right from the very declaration of the result. "Thick, old, northern..."

You often talk of division but seem very happy to continue to be divisive. I'm inclined to think that although you often say you'd like to see the end of that division you actually believe in the things you rail against. Your backhanded comments like "many Leavers(not necessarily on here)" aren't even subtle.

Can I suggest Matthew 5:38-40. Think about what merit there is in repeating that divisiveness. How does it move the debate forward? It doesn't.


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## drdel (Jan 11, 2019)

My Father used to drum into me that when an argument descended to insults (or swearing) is was clear that the intellectual contribution was going to be zilch.


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## Slime (Jan 11, 2019)

How many remainers does it take to change a lightbulb.

None, they don't do change.             
​


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A little curious that many Leave voters (not necessarily on this forum) seem more than happy to continue to describe as '_Remoaners_' those who voted to stay, but are not happy at being referred to as '_Quitters_' - even though the UK is indeed quitting the EU.   But there you go.
		
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'Leavers' is fine thanks ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2019)

Slime said:



How many remainers does it take to change a lightbulb.​​None, they don't do change.            ​​​

Click to expand...

I know this is a little off topic but funny:

How many forum members does it takes to change a light bulb? 

1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed 

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently 

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs 

1 to move it to the Lighting section 

2 to argue then move it to the Electricals section 

7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs 

5 to flame the spell checkers 

3 to correct spelling/grammar flames 

6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" .. another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid 

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp" 

15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct 

19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum 

11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum 

36 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty 

7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs 

4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's 

3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group 

13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too" 

5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy 

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" 

13 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs" 

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again


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## chrisd (Jan 11, 2019)

drive4show said:



			'Leavers' is fine thanks ðŸ‘
		
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I'd prefer "the intelligent majority" ðŸ‘


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You often talk of division but seem very happy to continue to be divisive. I'm inclined to think that although you often say you'd like to see the end of that division you actually believe in the things you rail against. Your backhanded comments like "many Leavers(not necessarily on here)" aren't even subtle.
		
Click to expand...

The problems with SiLH's posts is that they are contradictory. He repeatedly talks of healing the divisions in the country and how those that voted Leave need to compromise. But he also posts that he wants Brexit stopped. His solution to healing the divisions in the country appears to be to ignore the wishes of 52% of those that voted. Despite his protestations he doesn't want compromise or to heal the divisions, he wants to get his own way and remain in the EU and screw those that voted to leave.


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A little curious that many Leave voters (not necessarily on this forum) seem more than happy to continue to describe as '_Remoaners_' those who voted to stay, but are not happy at being referred to as '_Quitters_' - even though the UK is indeed quitting the EU.   But there you go.
		
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I'm a little curious who you voted for in the last GE as 80% of those that voted, voted for parties that were supposedly committed to Brexit.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 12, 2019)

Good article by the best writer there is IMHO. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...tain-john-bercow-car-sticker?CMP=share_btn_tw


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good article by the best writer there is IMHO. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...tain-john-bercow-car-sticker?CMP=share_btn_tw

Click to expand...

Too much waffle for me. I prefer the FT. Great article this week, following Bercow's intervention, and highlights the government's double standards.

https://www.ft.com/content/c47e7ee4-14e6-11e9-a581-4ff78404524e


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Too much waffle for me. I prefer the FT. Great article this week, following Bercow's intervention, and highlights the government's double standards.

https://www.ft.com/content/c47e7ee4-14e6-11e9-a581-4ff78404524e

Click to expand...

Seems to be behind a paywall for me


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## bluewolf (Jan 12, 2019)

My last word on the Bercow incident. 

IMO, what he did was set a much needed precedent. He allowed MP's to vote on a decision rather than let the Executive force it through. 

However, one aspect of the whole thing has been making me chuckle. 

People are losing their minds over the fact that he ignored advice. That advice would have come from an unelected bureaucrat. The very same type of bureaucrat that the very same people appear to passionately distrust in the EU. ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			My last word on the Bercow incident.

IMO, what he did was set a much needed precedent. *He allowed MP's to vote on a decision rather than let the Executive force it through.*

However, one aspect of the whole thing has been making me chuckle.

People are losing their minds over the fact that he ignored advice. That advice would have come from an unelected bureaucrat. The very same type of bureaucrat that the very same people appear to passionately distrust in the EU. ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸
		
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So he was giving control back to the UK parliament?  

Traitor.......


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## Old Skier (Jan 12, 2019)

The advice was given on a matter of proceedings.  If the commons want the rules changing, change them. It been around long enough.


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## bluewolf (Jan 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So he was giving control back to the UK parliament?  

Traitor.......
		
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Exactly. You just can't please some people.


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## bluewolf (Jan 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The advice was given on a matter of proceedings.  If the commons want the rules changing, change them. It been around long enough.
		
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What RULE would that be then?


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## Old Skier (Jan 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			What RULE would that be then?
		
Click to expand...

The one that he apparently broke. If your really interested you can always trawl the internet. I'm off to get a plane to snow ravaged Austria.


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## bluewolf (Jan 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The one that he apparently broke. If your really interested you can always trawl the internet. I'm off to get a plane to snow ravaged Austria.
		
Click to expand...

Have a good trip mate. 

However, it wasn't a rule. It was a precedent. And by definition, a set precedent is something that has been done that is different to what happened previously, which means that the precedent he broke was, at one time, just as controversial a change. It should happen more than it does, but politicians are cowards in this respect.


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## Old Skier (Jan 12, 2019)

Ta for the info.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 12, 2019)

Whatever the rights or wrongs of what Big John did doesn't change the immutable fact he's a five star cock... Place him and his missus right up there, with the Hamiltons, as being all that's bad with bureaucracy...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			My last word on the Bercow incident.

IMO, what he did was set a much needed precedent. He allowed MP's to vote on a decision rather than let the Executive force it through.

However, one aspect of the whole thing has been making me chuckle.

People are losing their minds over the fact that he ignored advice. That advice would have come from an unelected bureaucrat. The very same type of bureaucrat that the very same people appear to passionately distrust in the EU. ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸
		
Click to expand...

The main complaint here seems to be that he has been inconsistent with the policy, letting this one through but stopping others.  
Surely the advice from the Clerk of the House is in a similar way that a Magistrate gets advice from the Clerk of the court due to them not being experts on the law and protocol and we know that Remainers love their experts.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2019)

Just outta interest was Bercows ruling to state that the government had three days to come back with an alternative as against 21. Should Mays deal not get voted through.


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## bluewolf (Jan 12, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Just outta interest was Bercows ruling to state that the government had three days to come back with an alternative as against 21. Should Mays deal not get voted through.
		
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No. His decision was that MP's should vote on an amendment stating that the Government must present Plan B within 3 days, rather than 21. He allowed the House to control the process, not just the Government. 
Whether you think he was right (he was) or wrong (he wasn't ðŸ˜‰), it would appear strange to complain that we have too much goddamn Democracy.


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## drdel (Jan 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No. His decision was that MP's should vote on an amendment stating that the Government must present Plan B within 3 days, rather than 21. He allowed the House to control the process, not just the Government.
Whether you think he was right (he was) or wrong (he wasn't ðŸ˜‰), it would appear strange to complain that we have too much goddamn Democracy.
		
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Its not really the amendment itself but that he'd refused other MPs on the grounds amendments were not being permitted, against advice and precedent.


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## bluewolf (Jan 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its not really the amendment itself but that he'd refused other MPs on the grounds amendments were not being permitted, against advice and precedent.
		
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He made a decision, based on what he thought was right. He recognised the the Executive was attempting to run down the clock and force through a minority decision. He made sure that the most important political process in decades wasn't cheated by a government that had already been found in contempt once before. It was a difficult decision that has put him right in the firing line of the red tops and other Right/Far Right media organisations. Personally, I think it was brave. 
I should also point out that anyone could have found him in contempt and raised a vote of no confidence in him. Not one person has. That's quite telling considering the vitriol with which he's been attacked, isn't it?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The main complaint here seems to be that he has been inconsistent with the policy, letting this one through but stopping others.
Surely the advice from the Clerk of the House is in a similar way that a Magistrate gets advice from the Clerk of the court *due to them not being experts on the law and protocol and we know that Remainers love their experts*.
		
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You are not wrong. It's as if the whole Brexit process is a complex mass of contradictions and assumptions on both sides.  And people just seem to pick and choose the bits that suit them when it is expedient or backs up their argument.  But in the real world it is hugely complex issue and some may well argue, something that we really should have given more thought to before we asked a very binary question to the general public with little to no mention of how we would practically achieve the desired outcome.  Still, we'll know for next time.......


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## harpo_72 (Jan 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			He made a decision, based on what he thought was right. He recognised the the Executive was attempting to run down the clock and force through a minority decision. He made sure that the most important political process in decades wasn't cheated by a government that had already been found in contempt once before. It was a difficult decision that has put him right in the firing line of the red tops and other Right/Far Right media organisations. Personally, I think it was brave.
I should also point out that anyone could have found him in contempt and raised a vote of no confidence in him. Not one person has. That's quite telling considering the vitriol with which he's been attacked, isn't it?
		
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The truth is in the direction the vote went


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I'm a little curious who you voted for in the last GE as 80% of those that voted, voted for parties that were supposedly committed to Brexit.
		
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I voted for the National Health Action Party candidate standing against Jeremy Hunt - then Health Secretary


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe its because Leavers have been insulted right from the very declaration of the result. "Thick, old, northern..."

You often talk of division but seem very happy to continue to be divisive. I'm inclined to think that although you often say you'd like to see the end of that division you actually believe in the things you rail against. Your backhanded comments like "many Leavers(not necessarily on here)" aren't even subtle.

Can I suggest Matthew 5:38-40. Think about what merit there is in repeating that divisiveness. How does it move the debate forward? It doesn't.
		
Click to expand...

I have never talked of Leave voters North, South, East or West as being thick, stupid or ignorant.  In fact I hear more from Leave supporters claiming this than I actually hear Remain voters saying it.  But I suppose it all helps keep the fires of indignation and anger burning about the Remain elite...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The problems with SiLH's posts is that they are contradictory. He repeatedly talks of healing the divisions in the country and how those that voted Leave need to compromise. But he also posts that he wants Brexit stopped. His solution to healing the divisions in the country appears to be to ignore the wishes of 52% of those that voted. Despite his protestations he doesn't want compromise or to heal the divisions, he wants to get his own way and remain in the EU and screw those that voted to leave.
		
Click to expand...

Not true.  I think it is an insane act of self harm that we are leaving the EU - but if we are to leave then I hope we leave with at least a transition period - and if possible access to the SM and CU - a transition period that enables business to adapt to their new trading environment and circumstances.  I pray that it all goes as well as it can - which might not be that great - but I hope that at least a modicum of the faith shown by many lead Leavers is borne out,  I just fear it might be that good and that there are going to be a lot of poorer and disappointed voters out there looking for someone or some group to blame.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So he was giving control back to the UK parliament? 

Traitor.......
		
Click to expand...

Though if we go to trading on WTO Rules we'll be handing control of the framework for our trading arrangements, and jurisdiction over disagreements and complaints between UK and other countries, to a completely unelected organisation over which the UK has little or no influence and no representation.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not true.  I think it is an insane act of self harm that we are leaving the EU - but if we are to leave then I hope we leave with at least a transition period - and if possible access to the SM and CU - a transition period that enables business to adapt to their new trading environment and circumstances.  I pray that it all goes as well as it can - which might not be that great - but I hope that at least a modicum of the faith shown by many lead Leavers is borne out,  I just fear it might be that good and that there are going to be a lot of poorer and disappointed voters out there looking for someone or some group to blame.
		
Click to expand...

You appear to have answered something that I didn't ask. So to make it simple for you......

1) Have you posted on several occasions that Leavers need to compromise on Brexit to heal the divisions in the country?

2) Do you want Brexit stopped?

There's two simple questions for you that only require yes or no answers. And if you're being honest both answers are yes. Therefore my original point was correct. You demand compromise from Leave voters to heal division but want to ignore the wishes of the majority of those that voted to Leave.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 12, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			You appear to have answered something that I didn't ask. So to make it simple for you.......
		
Click to expand...

Typical inferred insult as per normal posts from those who respond with â€œproject fearâ€ and â€œitâ€™ll be alrightâ€
Then think that â€œremainersâ€ say they are thick ... your giving the ammunition and stirring up the bile. 

Does anyone question Rees Moggâ€™s ability to pooh pooh an opinion on economics given by a professor and professional economist given that Rees studied Geography only ? Itâ€™s a bit like listening to your window cleaner giving you dental advice... but hey â€œproject fearâ€ is to blame...


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Typical inferred insult as per normal posts from those who respond with â€œproject fearâ€ and â€œitâ€™ll be alrightâ€
Then think that â€œremainersâ€ say they are thick ... your giving the ammunition and stirring up the bile.

Does anyone question Rees Moggâ€™s ability to pooh pooh an opinion on economics given by a professor and professional economist given that Rees studied Geography only ? Itâ€™s a bit like listening to your window cleaner giving you dental advice... but hey â€œproject fearâ€ is to blame...
		
Click to expand...

Just the one small problem with your post, I'm not a Leaver. Although I didn't get the chance to vote in the referendum, due to work taking me away at the last minute, I wanted (and still want) to Remain in the EU. But I'm balanced enough to call out hypocritical posts such as those from SiLH and others. Perhaps you could highlight the posts were I have responded with "project fear" or "it'll be alright".


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Typical inferred insult as per normal posts from those who respond with â€œproject fearâ€ and â€œitâ€™ll be alrightâ€
Then think that â€œremainersâ€ say they are thick ... your giving the ammunition and stirring up the bile.

Does anyone question Rees Moggâ€™s ability to pooh pooh an opinion on economics given by a professor and professional economist given that Rees studied Geography only ? Itâ€™s a bit like listening to your window cleaner giving you dental advice... but hey â€œproject fearâ€ is to blame...
		
Click to expand...

Another post full of irony.  Complain about people making insults in one paragraph and then insult them in the next. ðŸ™„


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## harpo_72 (Jan 12, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just the one small problem with your post, I'm not a Leaver. Although I didn't get the chance to vote in the referendum, due to work taking me away at the last minute, I wanted (and still want) to Remain in the EU. But I'm balanced enough to call out hypocritical posts such as those from SiLH and others. Perhaps you could highlight the posts were I have responded with "project fear" or "it'll be alright".
		
Click to expand...

Canâ€™t be bothered to read through all your posts ... the comments stand you opened with an insult, a behaviour associated (and strongly evidenced )with the other 2 comments.
 Perhaps the counter would be for you to highlight all of SiLH posts that are hypocritical? I wouldnâ€™t bother myself, though, as it would be pretty pedantic and if we were being fair, I think we could select a lot of posts from across the spectrum. 
The way you wanted to vote, is of no consequence in the end, itâ€™s about the opening a post with an insult and without provocation. 
Now I know I have given some insults out, but I donâ€™t really feel any guilt or discomfort over it. I went in initially being level, but the responses I received suggested we had a little game a foot, so I joined it.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another post full of irony.  Complain about people making insults in one paragraph and then insult them in the next. ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t think you know what that means trigger... go get your broom and shuffle off


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not true.  I think it is an insane act of self harm that we are leaving the EU - but if we are to leave then I hope we leave with at least a transition period - and if possible access to the SM and CU - a transition period that enables business to adapt to their new trading environment and circumstances.  I pray that it all goes as well as it can - which might not be that great - but I hope that at least a modicum of the faith shown by many lead Leavers is borne out,  I just fear it might be that good and that there are going to be a lot of poorer and disappointed voters out there looking for someone or some group to blame.
		
Click to expand...

I assume by this post you recommend Mays Deal ?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Donâ€™t think you know what that means trigger... go get your broom and shuffle off
		
Click to expand...

You really are obnoxious. Would you say that to my face, I somehow doubt it.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You really are obnoxious
		
Click to expand...

We all have our talents.. but some one needs to talk to you in this manner as you have posted some unpleasant quotes from vile people.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Canâ€™t be bothered to read through all your posts ... the comments stand you opened with an insult, a behaviour associated (and strongly evidenced )with the other 2 comments.
Perhaps the counter would be for you to highlight all of SiLH posts that are hypocritical? I wouldnâ€™t bother myself, though, as it would be pretty pedantic and if we were being fair, I think we could select a lot of posts from across the spectrum.
The way you wanted to vote, is of no consequence in the end, itâ€™s about the opening a post with an insult and without provocation.
Now I know I have given some insults out, but I donâ€™t really feel any guilt or discomfort over it. I went in initially being level, but the responses I received suggested we had a little game a foot, so I joined it.
		
Click to expand...

What exactly is it in my post that you consider to be an insult? I've read it back a couple of times and still can't see anything that I wrote that could be considered an insult.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No. His decision was that MP's should vote on an amendment stating that the Government must present Plan B within 3 days, rather than 21. He allowed the House to control the process, not just the Government.
Whether you think he was right (he was) or wrong (he wasn't ðŸ˜‰), it would appear strange to complain that we have too much goddamn Democracy.
		
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Following that logic he should allow every proposed amendment to go through as it'would allow the house to take  control.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			We all have our talents.. but some one needs to talk to you in this manner as you have posted some unpleasant quotes from vile people.
		
Click to expand...

Can you give examples where I have done this. Please show where;  if you can?.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Can you give examples where I have done this. Please show where;  if you can?.
		
Click to expand...

I can... but I donâ€™t work for you, now shuffle off


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I can... but I donâ€™t work for you, now shuffle off
		
Click to expand...

So you cant


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## bluewolf (Jan 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Following that logic he should allow every proposed amendment to go through as it'would allow the house to take  control.
		
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No, he should consider all requests and be allowed to make the decisions that he feels are important. 
Again, despite all the bile, has anyone tabled a motion of no confidence?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No, he should consider all requests and be allowed to make the decisions that he feels are important.
Again, despite all the bile, has anyone tabled a motion of no confidence?
		
Click to expand...

Not yet


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## bluewolf (Jan 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Not yet
		
Click to expand...

They're leaving it a bit late eh?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			They're leaving it a bit late eh?
		
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They are indeed . Many were most vociferous in their condemnation at the time but for whatever reason they have stalled. I think technically you are correct but I just have a gut feeling he has personal agendas coming into play here.


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## ger147 (Jan 13, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			They're leaving it a bit late eh?
		
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It's not been called yet as Corbyn knows he won't win one at the moment. His best chance is after May's deal is rejected. He may wait till the 3 days are up and May has to come back with a Plan B. If Plan B is also a dog's dinner, that's when he should pull the trigger.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 13, 2019)

ger147 said:



			It's not been called yet as Corbyn knows he won't win one at the moment. His best chance is after May's deal is rejected. He may wait till the 3 days are up and May has to come back with a Plan B. If Plan B is also a dog's dinner, that's when he should pull the trigger.
		
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Why call it at all? What would happen if he lets May soldier on ... will she keep on pretending to try and get a new deal? Would we actually see a staunch leave candidate take her place ? 
Corbyn can sit and wait and watch ... if we go out we will have a period of turmoil. That person will and their party will be remembered for that, and every election the electrorate will be reminded.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So you cant
		
Click to expand...

Incorrect conclusion .. try again


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## bluewolf (Jan 13, 2019)

ger147 said:



			It's not been called yet as Corbyn knows he won't win one at the moment. His best chance is after May's deal is rejected. He may wait till the 3 days are up and May has to come back with a Plan B. If Plan B is also a dog's dinner, that's when he should pull the trigger.
		
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Sorry, crossed wires I think. I was referring to a motion of No Confidence in the Speaker for his actions last week ðŸ‘


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## Hobbit (Jan 13, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, crossed wires I think. I was referring to a motion of No Confidence in the Speaker for his actions last week ðŸ‘
		
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I thought Bercow's decision to allow the amendment when the Tories were obviously filibustering was spot on, even if the clerks advised him otherwise. However, having allowed that one he should have allowed the others. Irrespective of it being a noble decision it smacks of favouring one side of the argument, even if that wasn't his intention.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Incorrect conclusion .. try again
		
Click to expand...

Why? Youve got nothing so I will just accept you were talking rubbish.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why? Youve got nothing so I will just accept you were talking rubbish.
		
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No, there is evidence... your the one who has consistently posted drivel/rubbish and your completely wedded to an ideal that has no strategy or clue. Your decision was based on a perception that the EU was the bogey man and you were doing something heroic... but the real problems are home grown, and you have not realised this.


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## bobmac (Jan 13, 2019)

''You're talking rubbish''

''No I'm not, you are''

Why don't you just agree to disagree, step away from the computer and go and play something


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2019)

bobmac said:



			''You're talking rubbish''

''No I'm not, you are''

Why don't you just agree to disagree, step away from the computer and go and play something
		
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Fair comment


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No, there is evidence... your the one who has consistently posted drivel/rubbish and your completely wedded to an ideal that has no strategy or clue. Your decision was based on a perception that the EU was the bogey man and you were doing something heroic... but the real problems are home grown, and you have not realised this.
		
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Best thing is to ignore you, you seem to think anyone with a different view is an idiot.  I can't have a discussion with someone so shuttered and rude so don't reply as I'm finished wasting my time.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Best thing is to ignore you, you seem to think anyone with a different view is an idiot.  I can't have a discussion with someone so shuttered and rude so don't reply as I'm finished wasting my time.
		
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ðŸ˜­ðŸ¤£ðŸ¥³ðŸ¥³ðŸ¥³ðŸ¥³ðŸ¥³


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## ger147 (Jan 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Why call it at all? What would happen if he lets May soldier on ... will she keep on pretending to try and get a new deal? Would we actually see a staunch leave candidate take her place ? 
Corbyn can sit and wait and watch ... if we go out we will have a period of turmoil. That person will and their party will be remembered for that, and every election the electrorate will be reminded.
		
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The latest word is if Corbyn doesn't do it his back benchers are gonna try and do it.

I'm not advocating it being done btw, just giving my prediction re. what I think is going to happen and when.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 13, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The latest word is if Corbyn doesn't do it his back benchers are gonna try and do it.

I'm not advocating it being done btw, just giving my prediction re. what I think is going to happen and when.
		
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Brutally honest I donâ€™t think he is playing this game very well. But itâ€™s all a power struggle and not about what is best for the country .. leave or stay.


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## ger147 (Jan 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Brutally honest I donâ€™t think he is playing this game very well. But itâ€™s all a power struggle and not about what is best for the country .. leave or stay.
		
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He can't win a No Confidence vote without rebel Tory MP's supporting him as the DUP have remained firm throughout the May deal fiasco i.e. they will vote against her deal but will NOT vote against her in a no confidence vote. So if all the Tory MP's vote with the government, he cannot win no matter what.

It's all grandstanding IMO as if I know what I've just posted above to be true, he has to know it too.

Meanwhile as you say, the clock to the 29th Mar continues to tick down...


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## harpo_72 (Jan 13, 2019)

ger147 said:



			He can't win a No Confidence vote without rebel Tory MP's supporting him as the DUP have remained firm throughout the May deal fiasco i.e. they will vote against her deal but will NOT vote against her in a no confidence vote. So if all the Tory MP's vote with the government, he cannot win no matter what.

It's all grandstanding IMO as if I know what I've just posted above to be true, he has to know it too.

Meanwhile as you say, the clock to the 29th Mar continues to tick down...
		
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I donâ€™t think the Toryâ€™s will side with labour, this has all been about them staying in government not about what the people want. Hence no point on the confidence vote, just let the Toryâ€™s tidy up their mess.


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## Mudball (Jan 13, 2019)

.. on the other hand if he does win the no-confidence then it will be fun to watch this whole thing unravel even further. 
1) Labour would be like the Brexiteers during the referndum..   no one incl themselves believed they would win and therefore made no plan
2) Tory would be happy that the shoe is on the other foot and would now start demanding a 'good deal' ... 

... popcorn please and roll on the no confidence..   (In reality, i think the deal will go thru.. no one in Westminister cares about the country, they only care about their own jobs.)


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I donâ€™t think the Toryâ€™s will side with labour, this has all been about them staying in government not about what the people want. Hence no point on the confidence vote, just let the Toryâ€™s tidy up their mess.
		
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Labour and Tories are in a working coalition in about half a dozen Scottish councils.
They will sup with the devil to stay in power. [until the next time]


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## MegaSteve (Jan 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Labour and Tories are in a working coalition in about half a dozen Scottish councils.
They will sup with the devil to stay in power. [until the next time]
		
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For me rosette politics have got no place when it comes to local councils...


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## robinthehood (Jan 14, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-46843833/is-brexit-voting-llanelli-changing-its-mind

Its worth a watch if only for the accent mid film.


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## IanM (Jan 14, 2019)

Still happy with the betting slip I am holding....


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## MegaSteve (Jan 14, 2019)

IanM said:



 Still happy with the betting slip I am holding....
		
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Well, as Ms May is now threatening no leave rather than no deal should her concoction of a 'deal' fail to get through... Yep, there's every chance of you getting a payout..


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## Slime (Jan 14, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, as *Ms May is now threatening no leave rather than no deal *should her concoction of a 'deal' fail to get through... Yep, there's every chance of you getting a payout..
		
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In that case she should be sacked.
Her job was to take us out of the EU, as per the democratic process of the referendum.
She has no right to suggest 'no leave'.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 14, 2019)

Had a look at the odds earlier on Bet365. They've got it at 2/9 that we won't leave on 29th March.


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## User62651 (Jan 14, 2019)

Slime said:



			In that case she should be sacked.
Her job was to take us out of the EU, as per the democratic process of the referendum.
She has no right to suggest 'no leave'.
		
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Can she be sacked, other than by The Queen?
She's desperate and will lose tomorrow, living in cloud cuckoo land. Doesn't know what to say to MPs other than feeble scaremongering now. But will she have the grace to stand down after abig loss?.......I very much doubt it. She will be on full blown dalek 'exterminate' mode by end of tomorrow.....deny all reality, full circuitry meltdown.


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## ger147 (Jan 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Can she be sacked, other than by The Queen?
She's desperate and will lose tomorrow, living in cloud cuckoo land. Doesn't know what to say to MPs other than feeble scaremongering now. But will she have the grace to stand down after abig loss?.......I very much doubt it. She will be on full blown dalek 'exterminate' mode by end of tomorrow.....deny all reality, full circuitry meltdown.

Click to expand...

The only 2 ways she can be sacked is either losing a vote of confidence on her as Tory leader (she has already won one of those and can't be subjected to another for 1 year) of her government loses a no confidence motion. The DUP have confirmed they will support the government is any no confidence vote so the arithmetic means she is almost certain not to lose one of those either, so she won't be getting the sack any time soon.

I have no idea if she'll throw in the towel if she loses her vote tomorrow and the group of MP's succeed in taking over the Brexit process moving forward.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2019)

It has come to this situation due to her poor negotiating.  She seems to have allowed the EU to delay the talks on trade arrangements with their insistence on only discussing the Irish border and the divorce bill. The EU have used the Irish Republic as their tool to do this and we have fallen for it Hook Line and Sinker as time has run out.

She should have shown some back bone and insisted nothing is agreed until all  is agreed and that's what she was saying at one time. Labour have been completely vague on what they wanted to happen other than their pie in the sky six tests. The likes of Sourbry, Green and Clarke have acted disgracefully in my opinion, they may well have been Remainers but should have followed the instruction given by the peoples Vote.
So now we find ourselves in this primeval soup where all sorts of slithering creatures are shaming the mother of parliaments by pursuing personal agendas rather than accepting democracy, putting away party politics and working to make Brexit a great success.


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## User62651 (Jan 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It has come to this situation due to her poor negotiating.  She seems to have allowed the EU to delay the talks on trade arrangements with their insistence on only discussing the Irish border and the divorce bill. The EU have used the Irish Republic as their tool to do this and we have fallen for it Hook Line and Sinker as time has run out.

She should have shown some back bone and insisted nothing is agreed until all  is agreed and that's what she was saying at one time. Labour have been completely vague on what they wanted to happen other than their pie in the sky six tests. The likes of Sourbry, Green and Clarke have acted disgracefully in my opinion, they may well have been Remainers but should have followed the instruction given by the peoples Vote.
So now we find ourselves in this primeval soup where all sorts of slithering creatures are shaming the mother of parliaments by pursuing personal agendas rather than accepting democracy, putting away party politics and working to make Brexit a great success.
		
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Just more blame blame blame - blame EU, blame Soubry/Green/Clarke, blame Irish republic, blame May, blame everyone but the lying toads of the Brexit campaign who have given up and disappeared. 

Brexiteers have No plan no idea........ just leave.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Just more blame blame blame - blame EU, blame Soubry/Green/Clarke, blame Irish republic, blame May, blame everyone but the lying toads of the Brexit campaign who have given up and disappeared.

Brexiteers have No plan no idea........ just leave.

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ðŸ¤£ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ succinct !


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Just more blame blame blame - blame EU, blame Soubry/Green/Clarke, blame Irish republic, blame May, blame everyone but the lying toads of the Brexit campaign who have given up and disappeared. 

Brexiteers have No plan no idea........ just leave.

Click to expand...

So should we blame it all on the Bus or the 17 million who just wanted to leave.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So should we blame it all on the Bus or the 17 million who just wanted to leave.
		
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Why? Surely the blame lies with the people who have misled with unattainable promises? 
There are no other deals to be had TM got the only one ... and yeah itâ€™s pile of pooh, we all know that. Then there is no deal .. the great unknown, the one they are trying to squirrel away resources for, but why if itâ€™s the great hope? Probably because it to is a pile of pooh, just a different colour. 
Then there is remain, the EU bogeyman to blame for all that is not right in your town ... because it really impacts grass roots levels .. unlike local government.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Why? Surely the blame lies with the people who have misled with unattainable promises? 
There are no other deals to be had TM got the only one ... and yeah itâ€™s pile of pooh, we all know that. Then there is no deal .. the great unknown, the one they are trying to squirrel away resources for, but why if itâ€™s the great hope? Probably because it to is a pile of pooh, just a different colour. 
Then there is remain, the EU bogeyman to blame for all that is not right in your town ... because it really impacts grass roots levels .. unlike local government.
		
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As.much as I would like to discuss this with you further it will only result in you throwing insults around, so best to do what I said previously and ignore you.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 14, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



*Why? Surely the blame lies with the people who have misled with unattainable promises?*
There are no other deals to be had TM got the only one ... and yeah itâ€™s pile of pooh, we all know that. Then there is no deal .. the great unknown, the one they are trying to squirrel away resources for, but why if itâ€™s the great hope? Probably because it to is a pile of pooh, just a different colour.
Then there is remain, the EU bogeyman to blame for all that is not right in your town ... because it really impacts grass roots levels .. unlike local government.
		
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Doesn't some of the blame have to lie with the incompetent performance of our negotiators? I was working out in Germany during the negotiations and almost every day I was there were stories of different German manufacturers demanding that Angela Merkel put pressure on the EU to strike a deal. In the majority of cases these weren't requests they were demands with withdrawal of support for Merkel being threatened if this wasn't done. 

It seems as though for some reason our negotiators haven't taken advantage of the cards we held, the main ones being that several EU countries sell a massive amount into our market and that others rely on UK tourism for a large percentage of their income.

There is no criticism of the EU negotiators in this post - whether implied or direct - as they have done a fantastic job in negotiating in the best interests of the EU. But our negotiators appear to have done a very poor job.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 14, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



*Doesn't some of the blame have to lie with the incompetent performance of our negotiators?* I was working out in Germany during the negotiations and almost every day I was there were stories of different German manufacturers demanding that Angela Merkel put pressure on the EU to strike a deal. In the majority of cases these weren't requests they were demands with withdrawal of support for Merkel being threatened if this wasn't done.

It seems as though for some reason our negotiators haven't taken advantage of the cards we held, the main ones being that several EU countries sell a massive amount into our market and that others rely on UK tourism for a large percentage of their income.

There is no criticism of the EU negotiators in this post - whether implied or direct - as they have done a fantastic job in negotiating in the best interests of the EU. But our negotiators appear to have done a very poor job.
		
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No, some of the blame doesn't rest with them; all of it does.  They may have some mitigation in that May & others no doubt interfered and undermined, but the blame lies squarely on their shoulders.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			No, some of the blame doesn't rest with them; all of it does.  They may have some mitigation in that May & others no doubt interfered and undermined, but the blame lies squarely on their shoulders.
		
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Are they not constrained by the roadmap our politicians have given them. It also seems by the resignations of two Brexit Ministers that the negotiators have been undermined.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 14, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			No, some of the blame doesn't rest with them; all of it does.  They may have some mitigation in that May & others no doubt interfered and undermined, but the blame lies squarely on their shoulders.
		
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I don't think all the blame lies with the negotiators not that they have done a good job but we had 3 lead negotiators resign because May wouldn't listen and give them more support.


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## Mudball (Jan 14, 2019)

So the House of Lords have rejected by a 100+ ... how dare an unelected set of people go against the wishes of the people!! 
We should have a referendum to remove an unelected set of people from the parliament.. the same way we choose not to have unelected Brussels 
I am assuming the Brexit camp agrees..


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So the House of Lords have rejected by a 100+ ... how dare an unelected set of people go against the wishes of the people!! 
We should have a referendum to remove an unelected set of people from the parliament.. the same way we choose not to have unelected Brussels 
I am assuming the Brexit camp agrees..
		
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I think there is a place in Westminster for a second house but it's contents need a radical change.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 14, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			I don't think all the blame lies with the negotiators not that they have done a good job but we had 3 lead negotiators resign because May wouldn't listen and give them more support.
		
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Fair comment; maybe I should have said negotiations rather than negotiators.


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## Hobbit (Jan 14, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Fair comment; maybe I should have said negotiations rather than negotiators.
		
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Iâ€™m inclined to think our negotiators were riding to orders. Youâ€™ve only got to look at what Olly Robbins was doing, under Mayâ€™s instructions, whilst Davis was trying to negotiate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 15, 2019)

I for one would like to know the geography and number of the 'doors' that May said she has recently knocked on to add weight to her arguments.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2019)

There are a multitude of people and organisations you can lay the blame at for this, the negotiators (incidentally I feel that if had had different negotiators, give or take the odd mad hard right EU hater, the result would have been much the same), the red bus, the media for creating an environment of fear, the government, the opposition, ideological hard brexit leavers with promises of the land of milk and honey, blinkered 'The EU is great' remainers, the list goes on.

Personally I think the whole concept of having the referendum with a binary choice and no practical details on how by far the most disruptive option would happen, and what that would mean, is the root cause.  Staying was always going to be simple to enact as you just basically carry on with all the economic and political mechanisms and institutions that have been built up over decades.  Disentangling ourselves from that, as we have seen, is a monumentally difficult task.  So giving the public the choice, with little explanation of how we would practically enact their wishes or what it would look like has, to me, got us where we are.  So I'm with Danny Dyer on causes.

And there are no winners, we have lost most of what little trust we had in politicians, politics has become more fractured, we have been doing very little else when it comes to governing apart from Brexit over the last 2 years, business are operating under a lot of uncertainty, society has become that little bit more divided, certain nasty elements of society feel they have been given legitimacy to spout their vile nonsense, etc.

Despite what some remainers think, democracy will take a bit of a kicking if we do not leave in some form and despite what some remainers think, almost all the evidence suggests a hard Brexit will be very detrimental for this country.  The sad thing will be if those are our only two options. And I've said it before and I'll say it again, but if we want to take back control we really need to have a better quality of politician and a better quality of debate and discourse in our politics, media and the nation as a whole if we have any chance of surviving in a world with increasing political, economic and environmental challenges.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 15, 2019)

There is a third option proposed by Joanna Cherry which is that of a national unity government.
 Unfortunately that would need an awful lot of notches to fall into a blooming big wheel. But who knows, nothing would surprise me now.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There is a third option proposed by Joanna Cherry which is that of a national unity government.
Unfortunately that would need an awful lot of notches to fall into a blooming big wheel. But who knows, nothing would surprise me now.
		
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What is a National Unity Government and how would it bring a solution to the divided country.


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## IanM (Jan 15, 2019)

Referendum voted out.... massive campaign to ensure we stay in ensued.  
- Legal challenge funded by persons unknown
- Constant media campaign
- Government messing to achieve a deal no one wants

Get them talking economic disaster so the dont talk about Federalism and democracy.

All leading to Ref 2 and staying in as folk are scared or bored.

Its working perfectly.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2019)

IanM said:



			Referendum voted out.... massive campaign to ensure we stay in ensued.
- Legal challenge funded by persons unknown
- Constant media campaign
- Government messing to achieve a deal no one wants

Get them talking economic disaster so the dont talk about Federalism and democracy.

All leading to Ref 2 and staying in as folk are scared or bored.

Its working perfectly.
		
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If you are complaining about constant media campaigns and funding of campaigns by unknown people then I'd suggest the leave side are not completely innocent on that front.  But remember, they are all out to get you and what may look to everyone as a complete and utter failure of parliament and governance is in fact an elaborate plot dreamt up by some shady cartel to ensure we stay in. Probably the illuminate.  Or George Soros.


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## IanM (Jan 15, 2019)

Exhibit 1 : Gina Miller, who is she, and who funded her?
Exhibit 2 : Every other vote that the EU has lost.  What happened to them?
I could go on. 

No shady plot, far from it.  Precise and wilful path to Federalism via progressive treaty. 

But of course i could be wrong.  May could take us out on WTO terms in the morning.   But I havent been wrong on any of this yet,


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## Hobbit (Jan 15, 2019)

IanM said:



			Exhibit 1 : Gina Miller, who is she, and who funded her?
Exhibit 2 : Every other vote that the EU has lost.  What happened to them?
I could go on.

No shady plot, far from it.  Precise and wilful path to Federalism via progressive treaty.

But of course i could be wrong.  May could take us out on WTO terms in the morning.   But I havent been wrong on any of this yet,
		
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Does it matter who Gina Miller is? And who funded her? What would you say if a nobody Leaver had sprung out of the woodwork and campaigned in the last 2 years?

As for how many times the EU has lost a referendum but the result has never been enacted... that one is a concern. It would appear that the politicians in many countries don't respect the people who put them there.


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## User62651 (Jan 15, 2019)

Seeing as Mrs May is fair game to both leavers and remainers with her in/out shake it all about stance, can I lighten the mood? 

Might be old but I only saw it on twitter yesterday, uncanny -. Sorry to those of you born post 1977 or so, you probably dont remember Twiki !


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Does it matter who Gina Miller is? And who funded her? What would you say if a nobody Leaver had sprung out of the woodwork and campaigned in the last 2 years?

*As for how many times the EU has lost a referendum but the result has never been enacted*... that one is a concern. It would appear that the politicians in many countries don't respect the people who put them there.
		
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You'd hope nations would give it a lot of thought on how they would enact the result before calling a referendum on that subject then.


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## Dando (Jan 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You'd hope nations would give it a lot of thought on how they would enact the result before calling a referendum on that subject then.
		
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maybe the EU should respect the result!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2019)

Dando said:



			maybe the EU should respect the result!
		
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Not quite sure when the EU have said they do not respect the result.  And as some ardent leavers have stated, they do not blame the EU negotiators but the incompetence of our own negotiations.


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## bluewolf (Jan 15, 2019)

Dando said:



			maybe the EU should respect the result!
		
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I'm intrigued to know just how the EU are not respecting the result?

They've unilaterally agreed a negotiating position. They've allowed a small, organised group to do the negotiating, and they've stuck to what they agreed on.. 

Our Negotiators are the ones who didn't know what we wanted, when we wanted it, or how we planned to get it. We've had more negotiators than Jordan's had overnight dates. We've been a mess from start to finish because we triggered Art 50 long before we had a coherent plan.. Our Government should be ashamed of itself..


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## adam6177 (Jan 15, 2019)

I'm rather enjoying all the biased TV coverage....camera stays on the interviewee the whole time anti brexit buses/banners etc are displayed, yet as soon as the pro brexit slogan appears they cut back to the interviewer.  Incredible behaviour from a corrupt media.


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## Dando (Jan 15, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I'm intrigued to know just how the EU are not respecting the result?

They've unilaterally agreed a negotiating position. They've allowed a small, organised group to do the negotiating, and they've stuck to what they agreed on..

Our Negotiators are the ones who didn't know what we wanted, when we wanted it, or how we planned to get it. We've had more negotiators than Jordan's had overnight dates. We've been a mess from start to finish because we triggered Art 50 long before we had a coherent plan.. Our Government should be ashamed of itself..
		
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I wasnâ€™t talking about the UK referendum.
My post was in relation to other referendums that hadnâ€™t been enacted!


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## User62651 (Jan 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not quite sure when the EU have said they do not respect the result.  And as some ardent leavers have stated, they do not blame the EU negotiators but the incompetence of our own negotiations.
		
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Good point, the EU have negotiated something like 30+ trade agreements over decades with non EU countries yet firstly Leave campaign and then May/UK Govt thought they could swan along and bluff their way to the best 'cake and eat it' deal with the EU ever, at the first time of asking. May submitted article 50 letter under pressure from Brexiteers far too early. Think inexperience and being the smaller negotiating partner, we got a rude awakening. A bad deal is now better than no deal according to May, yet another u-turn.


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## bluewolf (Jan 15, 2019)

Dando said:



			I wasnâ€™t talking about the UK referendum.
My post was in relation to other referendums that hadnâ€™t been enacted!
		
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Not saying I completely disagree, but surely it's the job of the Country holding the Referendum to enact (or not) the result? If the EU attempt to convince them otherwise (using whatever means they feel adequate I suppose), then it's still the fault of the Government if the result has not been enacted?


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## PieMan (Jan 15, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Good point, the EU have negotiated something like 30+ trade agreements over decades with non EU countries
		
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Yes they have. But speak to some of the officials in those countries - as I have done over the last 6 months - and there's a fair bit of resentment towards the EU over how they approached those negotiations, particularly from those countries who are classed as 'developing' or 'least developed countries' by the WTO. You'll hear the words 'bullying' and 'aggressive' used. Ultimately those countries haven't been able to turn down the amount of cash the EU has thrown at them.


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## USER1999 (Jan 15, 2019)

I doubt if the German auto industry feel that tge EU negotiators have done a good job.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I'm rather enjoying all the biased TV coverage....camera stays on the interviewee the whole time anti brexit buses/banners etc are displayed, yet as soon as the pro brexit slogan appears they cut back to the interviewer.  Incredible behaviour from a corrupt media.
		
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Yes, that's right. BBC producers and cameraman are all funded by George Soros as well   ....  

Christ, if this is the level of paranoia and conspiracy theories before the vote chuff knows what will happen after it.  Can't wait for the tsunami of blame being put on just about everyone but the real people who have failed us.


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## IanM (Jan 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You'd hope nations would give it a lot of thought on how they would enact the result before calling a referendum on that subject then.
		
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Refs called to "shut up the dissenters and then demonstrate that exit will result in the sky falling in" 

The EU have no obligation to respect nation states holding referendums... they now dont even respect the right of these states to exist!


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## IanM (Jan 15, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			I doubt if the German auto industry feel that tge EU negotiators have done a good job.
		
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They sent a delegation to see Merkel in Nov to tell her to avoid trouble... she probably told them not to worry as the UK isnt leaving.   

Note how all the coverage in the media ignores the impact of revenue loss by non UK businesses in the event of an impass. Funny eh?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2019)

IanM said:



			They sent a delegation to see Merkel in Nov to tell her to avoid trouble... she probably told them not to worry as the UK isnt leaving.  

*Note how all the coverage in the media ignores the impact of revenue loss by non UK businesses in the event of an impass. Funny eh*?
		
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Not really as it's the UK market the Uk media are catering for, so they will be focusing on stories that impact UK industries. Well that's is in between all their secret meetings to work out clever camera angles to bring down Brexit apparently. 

I am sure German papers will be full of the horrific impact on their car industry if that is what will happen if that kind of news floats your das boot.


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## Hobbit (Jan 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not really as it's the UK market the Uk media are catering for, so they will be focusing on stories that impact UK industries. Well that's is in between all their secret meetings to work out clever camera angles to bring down Brexit apparently.

I am sure German papers will be full of the horrific impact on their car industry if that is what will happen if that kind of news floats your das boot.
		
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If you haven't been watching the obviously biased coverage may I suggest you don't patronise those that have.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If you haven't been watching the *obviously biased* coverage may I suggest you don't patronise those that have.
		
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How?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 15, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I'm rather enjoying all the biased TV coverage....camera stays on the interviewee the whole time anti brexit buses/banners etc are displayed, yet as soon as the pro brexit slogan appears they cut back to the interviewer.  Incredible behaviour from a corrupt media.
		
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Oh do give over.
For the 90 minutes I watched this morning, there were about 50 EU flags, half a dozen Unionist flegs, one UKIPPER [brave wee soul] and one saltire.
Oh and a very annoying bell ringer and drummer.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, that's right. BBC producers and cameraman are all funded by George Soros as well   .... 

Christ, if this is the level of paranoia and conspiracy theories before the vote chuff knows what will happen after it.  Can't wait for the tsunami of blame being put on just about everyone but the real people who have failed us.
		
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There have been a number of visits to Barnier and Junker by the likes of Ken Clarke, Tony Blair, Jeremy Corbyn,  Nick Clegg and many other Remainers who have been trying to give advice and assistance to the EU negotiators hoping it will derail what the Peoples vote decided.  Are these not some of the people who have failed us.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh do give over.
For the 90 minutes I watched this morning, there were about 50 EU flags, half a dozen Unionist flegs, one UKIPPER [brave wee soul] and one saltire.
Oh and a very annoying bell ringer and drummer.
		
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Go on... How do you know for sure it was a UKIPPER?


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## Dando (Jan 15, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Go on... How do you know for sure it was a UKIPPER?
		
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Probably wearing a nice white outfit with a matching pointy hat


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## bluewolf (Jan 15, 2019)

Dando said:



			Probably wearing a nice white outfit with a matching pointy hat
		
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Made me chuckle that


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## harpo_72 (Jan 15, 2019)

IanM said:



			They sent a delegation to see Merkel in Nov to tell her to avoid trouble... she probably told them not to worry as the UK isnt leaving.  

Note how all the coverage in the media ignores the impact of revenue loss by non UK businesses in the event of an impass. Funny eh?
		
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Would they not have to trade under WTO rules? Meaning if the UK gives them 0 tariffs, the UK would then have to give other car manufacturers 0 tariffs ?


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## Hobbit (Jan 15, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Would they not have to trade under WTO rules? Meaning if the UK gives them 0 tariffs, the UK would then have to give other car manufacturers 0 tariffs ?
		
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No. If there is a specific technical specification that a VW would pass but a Chrysler wouldn't then a different tariff rate could be applied. But if it was something simple, e.g. a coffee bean, the same tariffs would apply.


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## Mudball (Jan 15, 2019)

This March is indeed going to be momentous occassion...    Harry Kane will be back from injuries
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46884787 

#ImportantIssues #Priorities


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## Hobbit (Jan 15, 2019)

May's withdrawal deal beaten by 232 votes


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 15, 2019)

And rightly so Brian, she was deluded to think she could get it through.
Wonder what happens now, no deal??


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## MegaSteve (Jan 15, 2019)

Wow... Just WOW!


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## ger147 (Jan 15, 2019)

Worst kept secret out of the way, now on to the next few days and let's see what the MP's and TM can come up with...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 15, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Go on... How do you know for sure it was a UKIPPER?
		
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Perhaps it was the UKIP flag that they were waving, or do you think it was a false flag.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh do give over.
For the 90 minutes I watched this morning, there were about 50 EU flags, half a dozen Unionist flegs, one UKIPPER [brave wee soul] and one saltire.
Oh and a very annoying bell ringer and drummer.
		
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That's the BBC bias conspiracy right there Doon. Showing loads of EU flags but only a few Union flags and a single Scottish flag. Typical anti-Brexit and anti-Scottish coverage from the Beeb.


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## User62651 (Jan 15, 2019)

Bit early and slightly naughty from Tusk....must be loving this. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1085260488903090176


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 15, 2019)

drive4show said:



			And rightly so Brian, she was deluded to think she could get it through.
Wonder what happens now, no deal??
		
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Biggest government defeat in the Commons for over 100 years.


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## ger147 (Jan 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Biggest government defeat in the Commons for over 100 years.
		
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1924 wasn't 100 years ago...


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## Mudball (Jan 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Biggest government defeat in the Commons for over 100 years.
		
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I know it is a statistics.. but equally pointless.... we could also say this is the first referendum being run thru the parliament in 600 years.


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## Dando (Jan 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			1924 wasn't 100 years ago...
		
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When have facts ever mattered to him


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's the BBC bias conspiracy right there Doon. Showing loads of EU flags but only a few Union flags and a single Scottish flag. Typical anti-Brexit and anti-Scottish coverage from the Beeb. 

Click to expand...

They were actually showing exactly what was in front of their cameras.
 HoC just showing what an absolutely farcical way the UK has of running a country....looks like a very dated Monty Python sketch at the moment.

BTW that is two notches in the wheel required for Joanna Cherry's proposed British Unity government another two maybe three to go.


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## PieMan (Jan 15, 2019)

BTW that is two notches in the wheel required for Joanna Cherry's proposed British Unity government another two maybe three to go.
		
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I'd rather have a proposal from a Cherry Bakewell than Joanna Cherry!!


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## ger147 (Jan 15, 2019)

Another day to be wasted tomorrow with a no confidence motion that Corbyn can't win, so will be Thursday at the earliest before we can start with the debate re. what on earth the MP's are gonna come up with next.


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## drdel (Jan 15, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Yes they have. But speak to some of the officials in those countries - as I have done over the last 6 months - and there's a fair bit of resentment towards the EU over how they approached those negotiations, particularly from those countries who are classed as 'developing' or 'least developed countries' by the WTO. You'll hear the words 'bullying' and 'aggressive' used. Ultimately those countries haven't been able to turn down the amount of cash the EU has thrown at them.
		
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Don't come on here with real experience: I have to endorse your experience. The EU is entirely different to the members. The member are seen as a mild irritant to be ignored or manipulated.

As a consequence the EU negotiators simply had to keep pushing back, they were never out to for making a deal. If the EU were interested in the future relationship they would not have refused to discuss trade agreements.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 15, 2019)

So what happens next 

No one wants a No Deal in government so will they go back to the EU or will they go for a second referendum will Art 50 delayed by 6 months ?

And are people in the HOC using all this for their own gains instead of thinking about the UK ? Labour using it to try and get into government , Tory MPâ€™s using it to try and get rid of May 

Complete farce the lot of them

Listening to it on the radio on the way home and they are all a joke and an embarrassment - they have had two years and we have got nowhere. God help the country with any of these in charge if we leave we no deal 

Thank god im getting an Irish Passport. 

These people are playing games with peoples lives


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 15, 2019)

I think Parliament across all parties have let the people of the UK down in the two years since the vote. We're in a huge mess and each seems to be looking after their own interests. As the song goes, "there may be trouble ahead"


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## PieMan (Jan 15, 2019)

Very responsible and statesman-like tweet from Donald Tusk! And yet again further proof IMHO - and also from my experience of working with these EU officials - of why we'll be better off out.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 15, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what happens next 

No one wants a No Deal in government so will they go back to the EU or will they go for a second referendum will Art 50 delayed by 6 months ?

And are people in the HOC using all this for their own gains instead of thinking about the UK ? Labour using it to try and get into government , Tory MPâ€™s using it to try and get rid of May 

Complete farce the lot of them

Listening to it on the radio on the way home and they are all a joke and an embarrassment - they have had two years and we have got nowhere. God help the country with any of these in charge if we leave we no deal 

Thank god im getting an Irish Passport. 

These people are playing games with peoples lives
		
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I applied for my Irish PPS number today, equivalent to a national insurance number ðŸ˜ƒ


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## ger147 (Jan 15, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I applied for my Irish PPS number today, equivalent to a national insurance number ðŸ˜ƒ
		
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How many pints of Guinness do you need to drink to qualify for an Irish PPS number?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 15, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Very responsible and statesman-like tweet from Donald Tusk! And yet again further proof IMHO - and also from my experience of working with these EU officials - of why we'll be better off out.
		
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Was he not just asking the bleeding obvious.
The EU officials must be looking at the UK and wondering how the hell did that country ever build an Empire.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 15, 2019)

Can someone explain why a No Deal exit would be such a disaster for the UK? And can someone explain why a No Deal exit wouldn't actually be that big a deal? The Remain side of the debate seem to believe the former and many on the Leave side believe the latter. Now obviously both statements cannot be correct so is one of them right and the other wrong or is the truth somewhere in the middle? And if you could do it in simple terms (pretend your explaining to a 10 year old) that would be great.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can someone explain why a No Deal exit would be such a disaster for the UK? And can someone explain why a No Deal exit wouldn't actually be that big a deal? The Remain side of the debate seem to believe the former and many on the Leave side believe the latter. Now obviously both statements cannot be correct so is one of them right and the other wrong or is the truth somewhere in the middle? And if you could do it in simple terms (pretend your explaining to a 10 year old) that would be great.
		
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It's where the adults act like kids and screw everything up, stamping their feet and throwing their food around.


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## ger147 (Jan 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can someone explain why a No Deal exit would be such a disaster for the UK? And can someone explain why a No Deal exit wouldn't actually be that big a deal? The Remain side of the debate seem to believe the former and many on the Leave side believe the latter. Now obviously both statements cannot be correct so is one of them right and the other wrong or is the truth somewhere in the middle? And if you could do it in simple terms (pretend your explaining to a 10 year old) that would be great.
		
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The truth is somewhere in the middle i.e. some short term difficulties and additional costs until things settle down and some permanent changes to how some things work but on the whole everything would be sorted out quickly enough IMO and most things would remain largely the same in the medium/long term.

The above is all just my opinion so feel free to disagree but not interested in anyone who wants to pull it apart and challenge it word by word...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can someone explain why a No Deal exit would be such a disaster for the UK? And can someone explain why a No Deal exit wouldn't actually be that big a deal? The Remain side of the debate seem to believe the former and many on the Leave side believe the latter. Now obviously both statements cannot be correct so is one of them right and the other wrong or is the truth somewhere in the middle? And if you could do it in simple terms (pretend your explaining to a 10 year old) that would be great.
		
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As with anything truth closer to the middle - Itâ€™s prob a walk into the unknown 

Having a guess it would mean 

EU workers losing rights ?

Tariffs on goods going both ways 

Customs delays by a possible considerable increase of time which could affect millions of people

Freedom of movement stops - the uk can stop anyone from EU entering if they wish 

I think it wouldnâ€™t have to pay the bill ? 

Could we catch as much fish as we want ? 

And we work under WTO rules - not sure if thatâ€™s a good or back thing 

It has the possibility to break up the UK 

It could ruin any relationship with the EU countries 

It all looks pretty scary to me


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## Hobbit (Jan 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can someone explain why a No Deal exit would be such a disaster for the UK? And can someone explain why a No Deal exit wouldn't actually be that big a deal? The Remain side of the debate seem to believe the former and many on the Leave side believe the latter. Now obviously both statements cannot be correct so is one of them right and the other wrong or is the truth somewhere in the middle? And if you could do it in simple terms (pretend your explaining to a 10 year old) that would be great.
		
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If you trawl back through the thread youâ€™ll find hundreds of reasons for and against. Most of those opinions have a bias towards a preferred outcome. Most are right, either way, in support of their preferred outcome.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 15, 2019)

At the minute it seems as though all of the pressure is on the UK government to agree a deal. Would a No Deal exit flip that and put the pressure onto the EU to get a deal agreed? German manufacturing and southern European holiday destinations would be wanting a deal and it has the potential to cripple Ireland due to the amount of goods going there that transit through the UK - would these have be checked when they arrived in the UK and then checked again when it arrived in Ireland? A double delay for customs checks would surely be a disaster for Ireland.


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## Hobbit (Jan 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			At the minute it seems as though all of the pressure is on the UK government to agree a deal. Would a No Deal exit flip that and put the pressure onto the EU to get a deal agreed? German manufacturing and southern European holiday destinations would be wanting a deal and it has the potential to cripple Ireland due to the amount of goods going there that transit through the UK - would these have be checked when they arrived in the UK and then checked again when it arrived in Ireland? A double delay for customs checks would surely be a disaster for Ireland.
		
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We were at a meeting today with members of staff from the British Consulate and members of the national and local govt. In or out, nothing changes for British nationals in Spain. All T&C's currently in place will be in place post-Brexit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			At the minute it seems as though all of the pressure is on the UK government to agree a deal. Would a No Deal exit flip that and put the pressure onto the EU to get a deal agreed? German manufacturing and southern European holiday destinations would be wanting a deal and it has the potential to cripple Ireland due to the amount of goods going there that transit through the UK - would these have be checked when they arrived in the UK and then checked again when it arrived in Ireland? A double delay for customs checks would surely be a disaster for Ireland.
		
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I donâ€™t think anyone wants a no deal - both sides want a deal that they see is best for them , the problem seems to be is the EU are better negotiates than the rabble we have ( maybe because they are more dedicated and have a direction )

I donâ€™t see holiday destinations having too much of a say - German manufacturing , well will it go back to the days of tax free cars which the good old military took advantage off ? 

Maybe this vote will bring the EU closer to a better deal for the UK ? 

As for Ireland - a no deal just rips the country , can see it being the start of a joint Ireland


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 15, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As with anything truth closer to the middle - Itâ€™s prob a walk into the unknown

Having a guess it would mean

EU workers losing rights ? *- Only if we chose that to be the case?*

Tariffs on goods going both ways *- We import more than we export so do we benefit from this?*

Customs delays by a possible considerable increase of time which could affect millions of people *- Would affect both sides and potentially more damaging to EU due to the UK being their 2nd biggest supplier of medicines?*

Freedom of movement stops - the uk can stop anyone from EU entering if they wish *- Could be considered good or bad depending on what side of the argument you're on*

I think it wouldnâ€™t have to pay the bill ? *- Again another that could be seen from either side. We don't have to pay the Â£39 billion but how would it look if we left and didn't fulfill our promised spending commitments, pension contributions etc?*

Could we catch as much fish as we want ? *- Only if we chose that to be the case?*

And we work under WTO rules - not sure if thatâ€™s a good or back thing *- We import more than we export so do we benefit from this?*

It has the possibility to break up the UK *- the SNP want to do that anyway whether we Leave or Remain. It might accelerate the process but it seems likely that it will happen at some point.*

It could ruin any relationship with the EU countries 

It all looks pretty scary to me
		
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Just a few thoughts above in response to your points....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 15, 2019)

Have to say that the way that *Mairead McGuinness* was speaking when interviewed by Ch4 News this evening, when she was saying she and the EU needed to understand why those who voted against the deal did so as there were multiple reasons - and what the UK government would now actually want - you _could _draw a conclusion that there is some scope for the EU to move their position on the agreement - not something I would have expected.  But I may have misread what she said.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 15, 2019)

Dando said:



			When have facts ever mattered to him
		
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Here is one for you, seems the BBC reporter was right.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...ns-loss-in-history/ar-BBSihXV?ocid=spartandhp


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## harpo_72 (Jan 15, 2019)

Bit of a wash out really, not sure what Corbyn is really hoping to get from this, I donâ€™t think there is enough non Tories to carry it through, none will side with labour. He needs to take a position one that is agreed amongst his party... Dare I say it the Liberals look a more credible opposition because they have made a decision.


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## Slab (Jan 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what happens next

No one wants a No Deal in government so will they go back to the EU or will they go for a second referendum will Art 50 delayed by 6 months ?

And are people in the HOC using all this for their own gains instead of thinking about the UK ? Labour using it to try and get into government , Tory MPâ€™s using it to try and get rid of May

Complete farce the lot of them

Listening to it on the radio on the way home and they are all a joke and an embarrassment - they have had two years and we have got nowhere. God help the country with any of these in charge if we leave we no deal

Thank god im getting an Irish Passport.

*These people are playing games with peoples lives*

Click to expand...

Good post and says it all really and the last part especially seems lost on the MP's collectively 



(is it weird that despite never being a Tory voter, I actually feel a bit sorry for the PM! )


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## Fade and Die (Jan 16, 2019)

I think the scale of the defeat will show the EU and May that no amount of fettling will get this deal through. Both groups of supporters cheering outside parliament when it was defeated should be a clue to how bad it was! 

There is only two possible outcomes now.... 

1) postpone art 50, get a 3rd vote to get Brexit reversed and hope that the 17Mil who voted out last time have had enough or lost faith in the system and either vote differently or not at all. 

2) A hard Brexit then do deals as we need them

I think the first option is a slap in the face for democracy and it relies on the 17 Mil going away quietly which I donâ€™t think will happen. The 2nd option....ripping the plaster off will hurt short term but I think deals will be done swiftly and as a country we can reconcile and move forward.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 16, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46887188

As Mr Churchill once said, you cannot negotiate with your head in a lions mouth or summat like that. You have sent Missis May back to Parliment with a crap deal. "If a deal is impossible", as you say. Then there should be no deal. End of story.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I think the scale of the defeat will show the EU and May that no amount of fettling will get this deal through. Both groups of supporters cheering outside parliament when it was defeated should be a clue to how bad it was!

There is only two possible outcomes now....

1) postpone art 50, get a 3rd vote to get Brexit reversed and hope that the 17Mil who voted out last time have had enough or lost faith in the system and either vote differently or not at all.

2) A hard Brexit then do deals as we need them

I think the first option is a slap in the face for democracy and it relies on the 17 Mil going away quietly which I donâ€™t think will happen. The 2nd option....ripping the plaster off will hurt short term but I think deals will be done swiftly and as a country we can reconcile and move forward.
		
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Or there is an argument made by some that if there is a second referendum and the options are no deal or stay in then that would be clear what everyone is voting on and the consequences.  Plus there seems to be an assumption that stay would win but I am not so sure. 

And postponing article 50 does not necessarily mean a second vote, we can postpone and give us more time to get a consensus.  There is talk today of all the chairs of committees getting a greater say which I'd like to see.  I'm not sure why the government did not take this approach 2 years ago and realise that after such a relatively small margin of victory that consensus was needed to progress, instead of pandering to people like the ERG. As I feel if we did that we'd be in a better place now to get a deal.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 16, 2019)

Not sure that Remain should be an option on a new referendum, if we need one at all. The original vote was to leave. The issue now is how we leave, not whether we leave. That decision has already been made.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Or there is an argument made by some that if there is a second referendum and the options are no deal or stay in then that would be clear what everyone is voting on and the consequences.  Plus there seems to be an assumption that stay would win but I am not so sure.

And postponing article 50 does not necessarily mean a second vote, we can postpone and give us more time to get a consensus.  There is talk today of all the chairs of committees getting a greater say which I'd like to see.  I'm not sure why the government did not take this approach 2 years ago and realise that after such a relatively small margin of victory that consensus was needed to progress, instead of pandering to people like the ERG. As I feel if we did that we'd be in a better place now to get a deal.
		
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Re your 2nd paragraph, I donâ€™t think an agreement would be reached if they discussed it for another year! Mays deal reflected the referendum perfectly, it was roughly 52% leave and 48% remain. Unfortunately that doesnâ€™t satisfy anyone and if she moves closer to either camp the other side will resist. 

She has a huge mandate to leave through the notification of withdrawal act (498-114) and the act allows for us to leave with no deal if a deal cannot be negotiated. In my view it would be better for everyone just to pull the plaster off.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 16, 2019)

My understanding is that if we go with no deal we don't have to pay the divorce bill (39 billion) so yes there would be short term pain but would that money be enough to smooth the waters and help out the suffering businesses until we sign up other trade deals?


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 16, 2019)

What deal would Parliament agree to? For me it would have to be :-
1. We'll give you no money, nothing AT ALL !!!!!
2. Removal of all tariffs. Think of all the cheap wine we would be able to sell from NZ/Aus/Chile et al and send all the muck from France/Italy/Spain back. (I don't buy any from these counties and Portuguese is hard to find so no bother).
3. All immigrants picked up in the channel will be returned to France/ Europe. Well...you're better than anyone aren't you?
4. All current trading deals for goods between us and you to be kept the same.

That'll do nicely.


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 16, 2019)

drive4show said:



			My understanding is that if we go with no deal we don't have to pay the divorce bill (39 billion) so yes there would be short term pain but would that money be enough to smooth the waters and help out the suffering businesses until we sign up other trade deals?
		
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Top reason to have no deal


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## hors limite (Jan 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I think the scale of the defeat will show the EU and May that no amount of fettling will get this deal through. Both groups of supporters cheering outside parliament when it was defeated should be a clue to how bad it was!

There is only two possible outcomes now....

1) postpone art 50, get a 3rd vote to get Brexit reversed and hope that the 17Mil who voted out last time have had enough or lost faith in the system and either vote differently or not at all.

2) A hard Brexit then do deals as we need them

I think the first option is a slap in the face for democracy and it relies on the 17 Mil going away quietly which I donâ€™t think will happen. The 2nd option....ripping the plaster off will hurt short term but I think deals will be done swiftly and as a country we can reconcile and move forward.[/Q
		
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Fade and Die said:



			I think the scale of the defeat will show the EU and May that no amount of fettling will get this deal through. Both groups of supporters cheering outside parliament when it was defeated should be a clue to how bad it was!

There is only two possible outcomes now....

1) postpone art 50, get a 3rd vote to get Brexit reversed and hope that the 17Mil who voted out last time have had enough or lost faith in the system and either vote differently or not at all.

2) A hard Brexit then do deals as we need them

I think the first option is a slap in the face for democracy and it relies on the 17 Mil going away quietly which I donâ€™t think will happen. The 2nd option....ripping the plaster off will hurt short term but I think deals will be done swiftly and as a country we can reconcile and move forward.
		
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I am at ease with Leavers continuing wish to leave. I am less comfortable with statements like " a slap in the face for democracy". Democracy wasn't put on hold when the referendum took place. To pretend that to leave with no deal reflects in any way what was promised is dishonest. If there was another vote the 17.4 million would be just as free as anyone else to vote to confirm their original opinion. I think that Leavers fear of a second vote is transparent. There is no principle involved, it's simply that they are frightened that they might lose.


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## Beezerk (Jan 16, 2019)

hors limite said:



			I am at ease with Leavers continuing wish to leave. I am less comfortable with statements like " a slap in the face for democracy". Democracy wasn't put on hold when the referendum took place. To pretend that to leave with no deal reflects in any way what was promised is dishonest. If there was another vote the 17.4 million would be just as free as anyone else to vote to confirm their original opinion. I think that Leavers fear of a second vote is transparent. There is no principle involved, it's simply that they are frightened that they might lose.
		
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To be honest mate, I donâ€™t think a lot of people cared how we left, they knew it would be messy and just wanted out.
All this â€œwe know the facts nowâ€ is just remainer bluster, desperation if you will to try and get the result they voted for.
As for me, Iâ€™m resigned to the fact we wonâ€™t be leaving, the signs have been there for over a year and weâ€™ve been slowly drip fed project fear until thereâ€™s a point, like now, where another referendum is almost expected.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

drive4show said:



			My understanding is that if we go with no deal we don't have to pay the divorce bill (39 billion) so yes there would be short term pain but would that money be enough to smooth the waters and help out the suffering businesses until we sign up other trade deals?
		
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Again I would go back to the argument that if we have stiffed the EU for the 39 billion then how credible a trading partner would be be, or more accurately how favourable would the terms be for us in any future deals in a world that is becoming more protectionist?  If you look at it purely in pounds and euros it may make sense, I doubt it but I have absolutely no evidence as I have no idea of the immediate losses there would be. But as the old saying goes, price of everything, value of nothing.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

Beezerk said:



*To be honest mate, I donâ€™t think a lot of people cared how we left,* they knew it would be messy and just wanted out.
All this â€œwe know the facts nowâ€ is just remainer bluster, desperation if you will to try and get the result they voted for.
As for me, Iâ€™m resigned to the fact we wonâ€™t be leaving, the signs have been there for over a year and weâ€™ve been slowly drip fed project fear until thereâ€™s a point, like now, where another referendum is almost expected.
		
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I suppose there is an argument to say they, indeed everyone who voted should have cared or been given a bit more information as that is critical to our future well being both economically and socially? Which is kind of what is causing so much pain now.

You could argue we are now at project fear in terms of the projections.  If at the time it was pointed out that leave meant just cutting ourselves off with no deal, potential hard border with Ireland etc etc then there would have been a cacophony of 'project fear', in reality it is the easiest trade deal etc etc. But essentially it is increasingly looking like that is where we are now if we want to leave. Would 17 million still have voted to leave if they know that?  Who knows, may be yes but I think that is what the remainers are concerned about.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Again I would go back to the argument that if we have stiffed the EU for the 39 billion then how credible a trading partner would be be, or more accurately how favourable would the terms be for us in any future deals in a world that is becoming more protectionist?  If you look at it purely in pounds and euros it may make sense, I doubt it but I have absolutely no evidence as I have no idea of the immediate losses there would be. But as the old saying goes, price of everything, value of nothing.
		
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Not sure we've 'stiffed' the EU... Rather they've declined to negotiate an acceptable deal in return for our hard earnt...


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## MegaSteve (Jan 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suppose there is an argument to say they, indeed everyone who voted should have cared or been given a bit more information as that is critical to our future well being both economically and socially? Which is kind of what is causing so much pain now.

You could argue we are now at project fear in terms of the projections.  If at the time it was pointed out that leave meant just cutting ourselves off with no deal, potential hard border with Ireland etc etc then there would have been a cacophony of 'project fear', in reality it is the easiest trade deal etc etc. But essentially it is increasingly looking like that is where we are now if we want to leave. Would 17 million still have voted to leave if they know that?  Who knows, may be yes but I think that is what the remainers are concerned about.
		
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I suppose there is also an argument that some thought should have been given to the growing concerns/animosity about being taken deeper into the clutches of Brussels... Too many decisions being taken without any reference to the person on the street...


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Not sure we've 'stiffed' the EU... Rather they've declined to negotiate an acceptable deal in return for our hard earnt...
		
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Depends how its spun really, no doubt there will be the UKs way and also the EUs way.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



*I suppose there is also an argument that some thought should have been given to the growing concerns/animosity about being taken deeper into the clutches of Brussels.*.. Too many decisions being taken without any reference to the person on the street...
		
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I'd agree and you could say the referendum was a result of the fears of some of the increasing concerns over the EU.  And there was a majority to leave in some form.  But I'd also say they made a really crappy job of the process both before and certainly after it. And should we be stuck with the consequences of a really poor process if there is a clear majority in parliament to avoid a no deal? Difficult one.

I suspect if we do crash out with a hard brexit (or leave on favourable WTO terms if you prefer that wording) than that will poison the Tories for a few years and ruin their reputation as being trusted on the economy. As I'm not convinced that many people will want to put up with some real short term economic and social pain for alleged long term gain. Labour will do all they can to say they did not want this and it is the Tories fault. Labour, hopefully without Corbyn, will then win the next general election on a manifesto of another referendum to come back in. And so the cycle will continue.....


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## Beezerk (Jan 16, 2019)

So using an eu referendum as a carrot for future general elections?
How pathetic.
Of the system not you ðŸ˜


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## oxymoron (Jan 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Or there is an argument made by some that if there is a second referendum and the options are no deal or* stay in then that would be clear what everyone is voting on and the consequences.*  Plus there seems to be an assumption that stay would win but I am not so sure.

And postponing article 50 does not necessarily mean a second vote, we can postpone and give us more time to get a consensus.  There is talk today of all the chairs of committees getting a greater say which I'd like to see.  I'm not sure why the government did not take this approach 2 years ago and realise that after such a relatively small margin of victory that consensus was needed to progress, instead of pandering to people like the ERG. As I feel if we did that we'd be in a better place now to get a deal.
		
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This would only happen if the EU were upfront about its plans as well , as in confirm its desire to edge towards a federal state , control of economies and such however i cannot see that happening in a month of Sundays.

And the second referendum , well that should be a none starter or at least if we do go down that road , if i dont like the result of the next GE can i have a re-run please ? Dont see why not if others can bleat on about one vote not ending to their satisfaction , nothing like a gracefull loser is there !!!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			So using an eu referendum as a carrot for future general elections?
How pathetic.
Of the system not you ðŸ˜
		
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Or a clever political manoeuvre to get future voters on board, seeing as young voters are statistically more likely to want to be in the EU?  And you could make an argument that the referendum only occurred due to internal division in the Tory party and an attempt to try and appease the more right wingers from jumping to UKIP, in the days before they went all EDL. Which to me is just as pathetic.


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## Beezerk (Jan 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Or a clever political manoeuvre to get future voters on board.
		
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That's right, however playing the general public against each other, specially on this topic is dodgy ground for any political party is it not. Its already been suggested that any future referendum could mean the end of democracy in this country, ie a good majority of the population becoming even more dismayed with the political set up.
There's already enough division as it is without causing further damage.
I heard a political analyst say a few months ago, any party who calls for another referendum would be committing political suicide. Is that really just as true today?


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 16, 2019)

It would be funny if it wasn't 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2227127257305888


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## User62651 (Jan 16, 2019)

I see PMQs is back to normal, a slanging match on every topic going. More heated than usual.

May behaving as if yesterday didn't happen, telling us how amazing the Consevatives are doing. 
She's resilient I'll give her that.


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## ger147 (Jan 16, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I see PMQs is back to normal, a slanging match on every topic going. More heated than usual.

May behaving as if yesterday didn't happen, telling us how amazing the Consevatives are doing. 
She's resilient I'll give her that.
		
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The whole day will be like that i.e. 7hrs of whoever fancies it giving the government a kicking before a pointless vote that everyone knows the result of before it takes place, and another day wasted as we move ever closer to the 29th March...


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I see PMQs is back to normal, a slanging match on every topic going. More heated than usual.

May behaving as if yesterday didn't happen, telling us how amazing the Consevatives are doing.
She's resilient I'll give her that.
		
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Yes, I was hoping for a bit more conciliation in the circumstances where all parties are supposed to be working together.  But it's clear Corbyn just wants another general election. Christ what a shower of .....


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			That's right, however playing the general public against each other, specially on this topic is dodgy ground for any political party is it not. I*ts already been suggested that any future referendum could mean the end of democracy in this country*,* ie a good majority of the population becoming even more dismayed with the political set up.*
There's already enough division as it is without causing further damage.
I heard a political analyst say a few months ago, any party who calls for another referendum would be committing political suicide. Is that really just as true today?
		
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Whilst I can completely understand why people would not want a second vote, I think 'end of democracy' is stretching it a bit. And I suppose that the vast majority of the population are already dismayed with the political set up and so divided so some may say, how worse can it possibly get.  Trouble is that I fear we are about to find out whatever happens.

As for a party committing political suicide then it depends on the current feeling in the country.  Normally I'd agree it would be that, but if the only other option is a no deal then I'm not sure it would be viewed as such by so many.


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## IanM (Jan 16, 2019)

if 2nd Ref results in 

Remain:  That will be decisive and that is the end of the matter

Leave:  You thick old people didnt know what you voted for, Gina Miller will be back in Court and repeat last 2 years

....... see what's going on?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, I was hoping for a bit more conciliation in the circumstances where all parties are supposed to be working together.  But it's clear Corbyn just wants another general election. Christ what a shower of .....
		
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Yes indeed, at a time when the country (Parliament) needs to work together to get the best possible outcome all they can still do is squabble and go for petty points scoring. The whole lot of them should be ashamed!


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## adam6177 (Jan 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Whilst I can completely understand why people would not want a second vote, I think 'end of democracy' is stretching it a bit.
		
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I dont think its a stretch at all......as is the process at every general election the nation has a vote and that is adhered to, if they wont deliver on that then whats the point in voting at all?

I've said it a few times now, if it does go to a 2nd vote I will vote leave again (because this is too important not to), then I will never vote again in my life.



IanM said:



			if 2nd Ref results in

Remain:  That will be decisive and that is the end of the matter

Leave:  You thick old people didnt know what you voted for, Gina Miller will be back in Court and repeat last 2 years

....... see what's going on?
		
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genuinely interested in this.  Some polls I've seen show that leave would now command closer to 57% of the vote....if that is the case, then what.


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## oxymoron (Jan 16, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Yes indeed, at a time when the country (Parliament) needs to work together to get the best possible outcome all they can still do is squabble and go for petty points scoring. The whole lot of them should be ashamed!
		
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Yes indeed , it would be nice and refreshing if a few constituents watched their MP behaving like a child then called him or her  to remind that he represents them , their ward and indeed their town \city whatever and he\she had better start growing up or come the next GE he may be kicked off the gravy train , perhaps then we may get some dignity back in the chamber. Time to put national interest before self interest ,,,,,


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 16, 2019)

IanM said:



			if 2nd Ref results in

Remain:  That will be decisive and that is the end of the matter

Leave:  You thick old people didnt know what you voted for, Gina Miller will be back in Court and repeat last 2 years

....... see what's going on?
		
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I would probably argue that if the question put before the public was a choice between no deal or remain, then there would be little chance for anyone to claim they did not know what they were voting for. And as such, whilst there will always be those that will sulk as they did not get their way, both sides would accept that is what the public specifically want.


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## IanM (Jan 16, 2019)

Tory MP Dominic Grieve presenting two new bills to Parliament - he's proposed the EU Referendum (Preparation) Bill and EU Referendum Bill. 

...told ya


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## spongebob59 (Jan 16, 2019)

So individual MP's decided government policy now ?


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## Beezerk (Jan 16, 2019)

IanM said:



			Tory MP Dominic Grieve presenting two new bills to Parliament - he's proposed the EU Referendum (Preparation) Bill and EU Referendum Bill. 

...told ya
		
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He should be hung drawn and quartered for treason.


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## IanM (Jan 16, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So individual MP's decided government policy now ?
		
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oooh, where does it say that?


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## drdel (Jan 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I would probably argue that if the question put before the public was a choice between no deal or remain, then there would be little chance for anyone to claim they did not know what they were voting for. And as such, whilst there will always be those that will sulk as they did not get their way, both sides would accept that is what the public specifically want.
		
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A loaded question. Would potentially force the leave voters to modify their views whereas the remainers could stick as before.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 16, 2019)

So there is no majority for Mays deal and there is no majority for a no Deal according to reports - so what the hell have they been doing for 2 years 

Corbyn and his cronies are not going to support the government regardless because they are using it to try and get into power - totally disgraceful putting their own needs in front of the general public 

Itâ€™s time for them to grow up - form a cross party commission , include business leaders , general public etc etc the head of departments and get this pile of ðŸ’© sorted for the good of the public - their priority should be the best interests of the residents on the UK - all of them not just people who voted to leave


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## IanM (Jan 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I would probably argue that if the question put before the public was a choice between no deal or remain, then there would be little chance for anyone to claim they did not know what they were voting for. And as such, whilst there will always be those that will sulk as they did not get their way, both sides would accept that is what the public specifically want.
		
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I guess the point I was making is that no "Leave" outcome will ever result in the Federalists packing in and accepting the outcome. 

If you start with a trading cooperative and wilfully morph it in to a Federal Country purely by stealth, why would they suddenly start recognising the plebs voting on it?

Come on Italy... we need you to kick off now!


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## jp5 (Jan 16, 2019)

Lol, what exactly else is Corbyn going to do? Bit naive to suggest that he's not going to use the largest defeat of a Government ever to attempt to win an election. 

MPs would only approve a Norway style Brexit, which although seemed good enough for Farage pre-referendum, would now be claimed to not respect the will of the people by dictator May. No other deal would command the majority of MPs, and I don't think any deal at all would satisfy the public.

Can't see it being settled any other way than a No Deal vs. Remain public vote, to provide a mandate for a specific action. What a barrel of fun that would be.


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## IanM (Jan 16, 2019)

Yes indeed.... he had to do it.  

And your Referendum Questions are interesting too... I am sure if that was on the table early on, the EU would budge, they stand to risk lots of revenue if we got to WTO.  If the first Ref had been done one that basis and "Leave" won... would have Remain accepted it?  Not a chance!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 16, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Can't see it being settled any other way than a No Deal vs. Remain public vote, to provide a mandate for a specific action. What a barrel of fun that would be.
		
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I don't think a 2nd vote is an option, we have voted and a result has been reached. The options are renegotiate with Brussels, if they are not prepared to do that then we leave with no deal.


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## IanM (Jan 16, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I don't think a 2nd vote is an option, we have voted and a result has been reached. The options are renegotiate with Brussels, if they are not prepared to do that then we leave with no deal.
		
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True... but that cannot happen as we are not allowed to leave....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 16, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			He should be hung drawn and quartered for treason.
		
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I know the leavers want to take the UK back to the 1940's but surely the 1340's is a step too far.
Perhaps a good birching would be more appropriate.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 16, 2019)

IanM said:



			True... but that cannot happen as we are not allowed to leave....
		
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Oh yeah, I forgot that 1 little point.......


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I know the leavers want to take the UK back to the 1940's but surely the 1340's is a step too far.
Perhaps a good birching would be more appropriate.
		
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No, the leavers want to take the UK back to pre Maastricht.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 16, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I don't think a 2nd vote is an option, we have voted and a result has been reached. The options are renegotiate with Brussels, if they are not prepared to do that then we leave with no deal.
		
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They EU have said they will negotiate but May has to move her 'red lines'.
Shame for the UK to be ruined just because of one woman's pride.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 16, 2019)

The Remainers call that we didn't understand what we were voting for or that it was a binary vote seems to suffer from memory loss.

We were actually voting on whether we wanted to remain in Cameron's Reformed European Union that he had negotiated on our behalf OR to Leave the European Union.   The vote decided by a majority to reject his reformed EU and that was that.

NOW, The process to leave the EU is by invoking article 50 of the Maasterick Treaty which gives up to two years for the EU and the Leaving member country to negotiate the terms of leaving. This period can be extended if agreed by all existing EU Member States.  

From my view when those of us voted to leave we voted on the bases that we rejected Cameron's reformed EU and preferred to Leave the eu and it's institutions.  We expected our Government to negotiate the best trading arrangements possible but not to consider in any way us remaining a member.  

If Parliament frustrate or stop us leaving the EU and it's institutions then I consider they are no longer representative of the British Public's democratic wishes and must all be held accountable for their actions.   I don't understand exactly how this public accountability would manifest but it really is a concerning situation.


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2019)

Just going slightly of topic.. I wonder where we'd be right now if Gina Miller hadn't taken the Government to Court? 
For those more in the know.. Would we now be exiting with May's deal?


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## drdel (Jan 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They EU have said they will negotiate but May has to move her 'red lines'.
Shame for the UK to be ruined just because of one woman's pride.
		
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I think you might want to take a moment and remember the 'red lines' stem from the vote to leave and provides the basis for a withdrawl: but a discussion that the EU demanded artificially removed the inclusion of the 'future' relationship, yet insisted on a large goodwill payment. That is not a negotiation.  Note the Labour Party have their red lines !! You need to 'play-the-ball' not the person.

Personalising the issue is IMO part of what's wrong with the HoC and media reporting on this negotiation. The UK's problem is not the Red Lines but the EU's strategy of stonewalling because they are desperately afraid that one or other of the 27 will latch onto any concession given to the UK and want it to.

The membership is not a coherent bunch. You will see how the German MEPs (among others) are very unhappy with Brussels stance) and the stupid 'Twitter' posts show the level of intellect behind the EU. Verhofstadt was well and widely truly trashed for his attempt to get 'likes' in response to his childish pro-EU posts. Any negotiation needs the desire for agreement on both sides - what we have is an EU brick-wall of internal fear.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 16, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Just going slightly of topic.. I wonder where we'd be right now if Gina Miller hadn't taken the Government to Court? 
For those more in the know.. Would we now be exiting with May's deal?
		
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Did the original plan involve having to get the backing of the Tory party or just the cabinet. If it was the former then I would say no. If it was the latter then probably yes


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 16, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Just going slightly of topic.. I wonder where we'd be right now if Gina Miller hadn't taken the Government to Court? 
For those more in the know.. Would we now be exiting with May's deal?
		
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Same place. It was a brief sideshow for someone who wanted her 5 minutes of fame.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jan 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So there is no majority for Mays deal and there is no majority for a no Deal according to reports - so what the hell have they been doing for 2 years

Corbyn and his cronies are not going to support the government regardless because they are using it to try and get into power - totally disgraceful putting their own needs in front of the general public

Itâ€™s time for them to grow up - form a cross party commission , include business leaders , general public etc etc the head of departments and get this pile of ðŸ’© sorted for the good of the public - their priority should be the best interests of the residents on the UK - all of them not just people who voted to leave
		
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Let's never forget that the Conservatives never wanted Parliament to have a vote on this in the 1st placeand then when they lost that have refused any cross party collaboration until the 11th hour. 
I know Conservative Mps and some of their voters see them as 'the management' but this type of arrogance has put us in such a precarious position.
Labour are an ineffective opposition and I'm no Corbyn fan but the majority of this mess lays at the door of the Conservatives


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Same place. It was a brief sideshow for someone who wanted her 5 minutes of fame.
		
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Really? I've just googled it and even The Spectator is labelling her as a Brexiteer hero. They appear to be under the impression that without her challenge, we'd now be leaving under May's deal. 

As an aside, your answer seemed quite bitter and not what I've come to expect from someone who is usually quite balanced.


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## Mudball (Jan 16, 2019)

have we left the EU yet?   Got the work TV going on about the farce called parliament.  Seems to be on repeat - but says 'LIVE' for some reason.
Cant we just take our bags and leave...  enough of this nonsense


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 16, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Really? I've just googled it and even The Spectator is labelling her as a Brexiteer hero. They appear to be under the impression that without her challenge, we'd now be leaving under May's deal.

As an aside, your answer seemed quite bitter and not what I've come to expect from someone who is usually quite balanced.
		
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I thought she loved the moment too much, was hugely patronising and saw herself as some great hero. I thought she cost the taxpayer money and delayed the process largely for the sake of it, although clearly not as much as TM has done and got nowhere. Perhaps I am being too harsh on her but she rubbed me up. Bitter? Brexit grinds us all down 

I tend to be cynical about any media declaring anyone in this process a hero. They all have an angle and we need to dig deep to see who is behind it, both sides. Even the Mail, all for Brexit at one point, has changed tack since Dacre left and the Tories voting against May last night are now all traitors. We need to get this out of the way and press factory reset.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 16, 2019)




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## Tashyboy (Jan 16, 2019)

Hypothetically, Jezza gets his shot at pm. He has already said that he would be able to renegotiate the deal. However the EU has said the deal on the table is the deal on the table, end of story. Kinda contradicts Jezzas fantasy. Yet he and his " followers" believe Jezza is the man.


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## User62651 (Jan 16, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Hypothetically, Jezza gets his shot at pm. He has already said that he would be able to renegotiate the deal. However the EU has said the deal on the table is the deal on the table, end of story. Kinda contradicts Jezzas fantasy. Yet he and his " followers" believe Jezza is the man.
		
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Think many of Jezza's 'fans' couldn't give 2 hoots about EU or Brexit, they are more concerned with day to day survival being unable to feed or buy their kids clothes and suffering from 8 years of tough Tory cuts. They're the Jezza fans. Suggest Labour people who are more comfortably off and follow politics more closely want rid of Corbyn (like most of his backbenchers) as they know he's totally unelectable to a big proportion of the electorate. Was amazed to see Labour get 40% in 2017 GE but I think Corbyns bubble has burst now and May's electioneeering was as bad as it could possibly be then and relied on Ruth Davidson's skills/appeal to get her 13 scottish MPs from only 1 before which kept May in power in 2017.
Labour have to lose Corbyn quick.......but they wont.


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## Foxholer (Jan 16, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Just going slightly of topic.. I wonder where we'd be right now if Gina Miller hadn't taken the Government to Court? 
For those more in the know.. Would we now be exiting with May's deal?
		
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Absolutely Yes!

Her assertion - confirmed as valid by both The High Court and The Supreme Court (on appeal) simply confirmed how Article 50 could be invoked by UK - only by Parliament.

So Yes, we'd be in exactly this position!


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## Foxholer (Jan 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The Remainers call that we didn't understand what we were voting for or that it was a binary vote seems to suffer from memory loss.

We were actually voting on whether we wanted to remain in Cameron's Reformed European Union that he had negotiated on our behalf OR to Leave the European Union.   The vote decided by a majority to reject his reformed EU and that was that.

NOW, The process to leave the EU is by invoking article 50 of the Maasterick Treaty which gives up to two years for the EU and the Leaving member country to negotiate the terms of leaving. This period can be extended if agreed by all existing EU Member States.

From my view when those of us voted to leave we voted on the bases that we rejected Cameron's reformed EU and preferred to Leave the eu and it's institutions.  We expected our Government to negotiate the best trading arrangements possible but not to consider in any way us remaining a member.

If Parliament frustrate or stop us leaving the EU and it's institutions then I consider they are no longer representative of the British Public's democratic wishes and must all be held accountable for their actions.   I don't understand exactly how this public accountability would manifest but it really is a concerning situation.
		
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There is so much wrong with this post that it is difficult to believe it was written mid-afternoon!

Of most concern though is the entire last paragraph. The concept that UK Parliament should be the body responsible for UK's laws and relationships was by far the main argument for leaving the EU. If that body's capability to do so is now being challenged by a self-confessed Leaver, then the entire thrust of 'Leave' is greatly diminished! The issue was blatantly obvious from the time Cameron proposed the referendum!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 16, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Think many of Jezza's 'fans' couldn't give 2 hoots about EU or Brexit, they are more concerned with day to day survival being unable to feed or buy their kids clothes and suffering from 8 years of tough Tory cuts. They're the Jezza fans. Suggest Labour people who are more comfortably off and follow politics more closely want rid of Corbyn (like most of his backbenchers) as they know he's totally unelectable to a big proportion of the electorate. Was amazed to see Labour get 40% in 2017 GE but I think Corbyns bubble has burst now and May's electioneeering was as bad as it could possibly be then and relied on Ruth Davidson's skills/appeal to get her 13 scottish MPs from only 1 before which kept May in power in 2017.
Labour have to lose Corbyn quick.......but they wont.
		
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Im not sure that is correct.  Corbyn's stormtroopers Momentum are mainly middleclass people who have never been hard up.  There always have been and always will be poor people, some are victims of circumstance, some dont help themselves but creating a country where hard work and enterprise plays second fiddle to relying on others to take care of you when you are capable of doing it yourself is guaranteed to be a failure.  Look after the genuine needy but always with the objective of returning them to employment where possible.
This country needed austerity to stop it going bankrupt, do you believe we can keep increasing debt or that borrowing more is the way to prosperity.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There is so much wrong with this post that it is difficult to believe it as written mid-afternoon!
		
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By wrong do you mean pedantic miniscae or difference of opinion.  If you are going to make rude comments maybe you could explain, especially as you have recently criticised me for doing the same.


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Absolutely Yes!

Her assertion - confirmed as valid by both The High Court and The Supreme Court (on appeal) simply confirmed how Article 50 could be invoked by UK - only by Parliament.

So Yes, we'd be in exactly this position!
		
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Sorry, my work frazzled brain isn't working at full speed right now. Are you confirming that, without Miller's challenge, we'd now be destined to leave with May's Deal?


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 16, 2019)

Theresa May survives the No Confidence motion by 19 votes.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 16, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Theresa May survives the No Confidence motion by 19 votes.
		
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Waste of a day and annoyingly everyone knew it was going to be a waste. 

Hopefully tomorrow will be a more constructive day.

I had my first genuinely panicked customer today, our German distributor. He was freaked by yesterday. Not good


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## Foxholer (Jan 16, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, my work frazzled brain isn't working at full speed right now. Are you confirming that, without Miller's challenge, we'd now be destined to leave with May's Deal?
		
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Nothing that Miller did changed whether A50 was invoked nor what the subsequent 'deal' was. It was solely about who could invoke A50. What (and all) Miller DID achieve was to force May to get Parliament to approve, _with standard parliamentary scrutiny_, the invocation of A50 - something she had been been keen to simply invoke using Cabinet/prerogative powers.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There is so much wrong with this post that it is difficult to believe it was written mid-afternoon!

Of most concern though is the entire last paragraph. The concept that UK Parliament should be the body responsible for UK's laws and relationships was by far the main argument for leaving the EU. If that body's capability to do so is now being challenged by a self-confessed Leaver, then the entire thrust of 'Leave' is greatly diminished! The issue was blatantly obvious from the time Cameron proposed the referendum!
		
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You have edited your post since i replied to it.
I dont see how your edited comment is relevant to my last paragraph. I suggested that if parliament stop Brexit and ignore the result of the referendum then they will be held to account by the people that voted to leave. This may be by future voting trend or by unrest, I'm not sure how it would manifest.


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## Hobbit (Jan 16, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, my work frazzled brain isn't working at full speed right now. Are you confirming that, without Miller's challenge, we'd now be destined to leave with May's Deal?
		
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Prior to Gina Miller's intervention the Tories didn't have to take the deal to Parliament. The interpretation previously was that the govt could sign off on any deal without taking it to Parliament. From a govt's perspective they often sign off on deals without taking them to Parliament, e.g. the trade deal made with China 4 years ago.

On the Gina Miller case I can see it both ways. On the one hand it was too big an issue to be bulldozed through on the back of an ancient clause but, equally, the wider picture going forward means that a government (potentially) can't govern on the bigger issues without taking them to Parliament for the decision. If you've won the right to govern...


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## Tashyboy (Jan 16, 2019)

Frustrated by the shenanigans going off throughout this whole process. At a time when this country is nigh on its Arse. I struggle to grasp what is pissing me off the most.

1, is it politicians of all parties using this Brexit to further there own careers.
2, is it members of Joe Public struggling to accept a democratic vote.
3, is it the most incompetent leader of the opposition in my living memory.
4, is it the most incompetent opposition in my living memory.
5, is it the most incompetent Government in my living memory.
6, is it the EU who have shown themselves to be the shower of crap that Brexiteers thought them to be.

I could go on and on.

Whichever one of the above it is, i will be gobsmacked if another deal can be sorted in the three days. One of which was used up by Corbyn pushing for a vote of no confidence. Is it possible for the house to push for a vote of no confidence in Jezza.


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## Foxholer (Jan 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			By wrong do you mean pedantic miniscae or difference of opinion.  If you are going to make rude comments maybe you could explain, especially as you have recently criticised me for doing the same.
		
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Errors of fact mainly, but it's the last paragraph that's the major issue.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 16, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Theresa May survives the No Confidence motion by 19 votes.
		
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306 votes v 325 votes. Or to put it another way 48% v 52%. I'm sure I've seen those figures before somewhere. Do we now have to spend two years arguing over the result of the vote?


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## Foxholer (Jan 16, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Frustrated by the shenanigans going off throughout this whole process. At a time when this country is nigh on its Arse. I struggle to grasp what is pissing me off the most.

1, is it politicians of all parties using this Brexit to further there own careers.
2, is it members of Joe Public struggling to accept a democratic vote.
3, is it the most incompetent leader of the opposition in my living memory.
4, is it the most incompetent opposition in my living memory.
5, is it the most incompetent Government in my living memory.
6, is it the EU who have shown themselves to be the shower of crap that Brexiteers thought them to be.

I could go on and on.

Whichever one of the above it is, i will be gobsmacked if another deal can be sorted in the three days. One of which was used up by Corbyn pushing for a vote of no confidence. Is it possible for the house to push for a vote of no confidence in Jezza.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly even many/all of the above!


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## Hobbit (Jan 16, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Frustrated by the shenanigans going off throughout this whole process. At a time when this country is nigh on its Arse. I struggle to grasp what is pissing me off the most.

1, is it politicians of all parties using this Brexit to further there own careers.
2, is it members of Joe Public struggling to accept a democratic vote.
3, is it the most incompetent leader of the opposition in my living memory.
4, is it the most incompetent opposition in my living memory.
5, is it the most incompetent Government in my living memory.
6, is it the EU who have shown themselves to be the shower of crap that Brexiteers thought them to be.

I could go on and on.

Whichever one of the above it is, i will be gobsmacked if another deal can be sorted in the three days. One of which was used up by Corbyn pushing for a vote of no confidence. Is it possible for the house to push for a vote of no confidence in Jezza.
		
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Sorry to say you've nailed all of them.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 16, 2019)

So May offers Davros a chance  to start cross party discussions and he says only if no deal comes off the table


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## Hobbit (Jan 16, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So May offers Davros a chance  to start cross party discussions and he says only if no deal comes off the table 

Click to expand...

This line, even if it is the intention is just wrong. It takes a bargaining chip of the table. "Give me a good deal or I'm walking." Or, "I'll take anything as long as its a deal." As the other party what would worry you the most?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 16, 2019)

Is it safe to say that the only way there is going to be a â€œno dealâ€ is if the public get a vote on it and they vote for it? It seems not one single party wants to have a no deal Brexit ?


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## Foxholer (Jan 16, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Really? I've just googled it and even The Spectator is labelling her as a Brexiteer hero. They appear to be under the impression that without her challenge, we'd now be leaving under May's deal.
		
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Indeed/Quite possibly/likely, the need to get 'her deal' approved by Parliament was made a pretty blatant necessity by Miller's action!


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## PieMan (Jan 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I had my first genuinely panicked customer today, our German distributor. He was freaked by yesterday. Not good 

Click to expand...

Did you ask them what pressure/lobbying they've been putting on their own Government?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			306 votes v 325 votes. Or to put it another way 48% v 52%. I'm sure I've seen those figures before somewhere. Do we now have to spend two years arguing over the result of the vote?
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ If I don't laugh al cry


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 16, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So May offers Davros a chance  to start cross party discussions and he says only if no deal comes off the table 

Click to expand...

SNP have said the same, as have the Lib Dems but they've also added that consideration should be given to a People's Vote. May has refused to take No Deal off the table so I guess there's not going to be much progress.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 16, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ If I don't laugh al cry
		
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Did the 52% supporting the government understand what they were actually voting for? Should the question have been a simple binary choice? I demand another vote because I don't like the result of this vote.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it safe to say that the only way there is going to be a â€œno dealâ€ is if the public get a vote on it and they vote for it? It seems not one single party wants to have a no deal Brexit ?
		
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Current legislation means we leave the EU in March, if there is no deal agreed or article 50 extended then we will leave without a deal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Current legislation means we leave the EU in March, if there is no deal agreed with the EU then we will leave without a deal.
		
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That didnâ€™t really answer the post - thatâ€™s just your normal generic statement you blurt out and seems to ignore what is being said in the HoC. 

If no deal is agreed up then I have no doubt things will be extended 

Thankfully it seems leaving without a deal is the last thing they want to do so they are going to at least make sure there is some sort of deal - thankfully


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## SocketRocket (Jan 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That didnâ€™t really answer the post - thatâ€™s just your normal generic statement you blurt out and seems to ignore what is being said in the HoC.

If no deal is agreed up then I have no doubt things will be extended

Thankfully it seems leaving without a deal is the last thing they want to do so they are going to at least make sure there is some sort of deal - thankfully
		
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I repeat, if there isnt a deal agreed or article 50 extended we will leave without a deal.   Dislike that as much as you like but its what will happen and answered your question.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 16, 2019)

If the EU say the deal on the table is the deal on the table and it ain't changing. How are we gonna get a deal when we are 200 plus votes from no other deal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 16, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			If the EU say the deal on the table is the deal on the table and it ain't changing. How are we gonna get a deal when we are 200 plus votes from no other deal.
		
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I have no doubt there will be further negotiations- they arenâ€™t as daft as they seem , long way to go yet , neither side wants a no deal so they will need to find common ground for both even if it means extending timelines. There are no doubt the odd loud voice for a no deal but it seems thatâ€™s more a minroty


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## Hobbit (Jan 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That didnâ€™t really answer the post - thatâ€™s just your normal generic statement you blurt out and seems to ignore what is being said in the HoC.

If no deal is agreed up then I have no doubt things will be extended

Thankfully it seems leaving without a deal is the last thing they want to do so they are going to at least make sure there is some sort of deal - thankfully
		
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When Article 50 was triggered, and also enshrined in UK law at the time, if nothing is in place on the 29th March, including an extension, the legal default position is leave.


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## Hobbit (Jan 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no doubt there will be further negotiations- they arenâ€™t as daft as they seem , long way to go yet , neither side wants a no deal so they will need to find common ground for both even if it means extending timelines. There are no doubt the odd loud voice for a no deal but it seems thatâ€™s more a minroty
		
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I'd like to think you're right. I think last night's debacle will be surpassed before this unholy mess is resolved.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 16, 2019)

.@*theresa_may* is making emergency statement on steps of Downing Street at 10.03pm tonight to reassure us that it will all be OK in the end.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			306 votes v 325 votes. Or to put it another way 48% v 52%. I'm sure I've seen those figures before somewhere. Do we now have to spend two years arguing over the result of the vote?
		
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  You couldn't make it up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 16, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Did you ask them what pressure/lobbying they've been putting on their own Government?
		
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He doesn't understand why we are leaving and wants us to stay. He sees it as a British issue, not a German one. He's my customer,  I'm not going to get into a political discussion with him,  that is what forums are for 

Regarding the statement at 10pm, any chance TM will resign? She seems to be the sticking point, not willing to listen. Will she resign to free up the process ?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He doesn't understand why we are leaving and wants us to stay. He sees it as a British issue, not a German one. He's my customer,  I'm not going to get into a political discussion with him,  that is what forums are for 

Regarding the statement at 10pm, any chance TM will resign? She seems to be the sticking point, not willing to listen. Will she resign to free up the process ?
		
Click to expand...

I would be surprised if she did but who knows.....all will be revealed very soon ðŸ¤”


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## Stuart_C (Jan 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He doesn't understand why we are leaving and wants us to stay. He sees it as a British issue, not a German one. He's my customer,  I'm not going to get into a political discussion with him,  that is what forums are for 

Regarding the statement at 10pm, any chance TM will resign? She seems to be the sticking point, not willing to listen. Will she resign to free up the process ?
		
Click to expand...

If she does they should put Grease-Mogg in charge to deal with the EU.


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## woofers (Jan 16, 2019)

Perhaps the time has come to stop trying to reach a consensus deal. Everyone is apparently digging their heels in.
So, just announce no more negotiations, weâ€™re getting nowwhere and wasting a lot of time and effort, so announce weâ€™ll just leave with no deal.

If everyoneâ€™s so petrified of â€˜no dealâ€™ that might shift things along. At the start of all this I believe â€˜No deal is better than a bad dealâ€™ was the mantra.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 16, 2019)

The leaders of Plaid Cymru, SNP, Green Party and Lib Dems have published a letter sent to Jeremy Corbyn wanting him to support "a People's vote on the final Brexit deal". Theresa May could announce another referendum with the two options being her deal or no deal and that would technically satisfy the demands for a vote on "the final deal". Of course we all know that they don't really want a vote on the final deal, they want to overturn the result of the first vote, which is why they are suggesting Remain or No Deal as the two options on the ballot paper, as they hope that all of the stories about how terrible No Deal would be would convince enough Leave voters to vote to remain.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 16, 2019)

So....Brexit will be delivered is the message as I understand it.


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## ger147 (Jan 16, 2019)

drive4show said:



			So....Brexit will be delivered is the message as I understand it.
		
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They're gonna need a VERY big envelope, and a load of stamps...


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## spongebob59 (Jan 16, 2019)

.@*theresa_may* â€œthis is now the time to put self-interest asideâ€ - â€œI am disappointed that the leader of the Labour Party has so far decided not to take part but my door is openâ€


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## fundy (Jan 16, 2019)

drive4show said:



			So....Brexit will be delivered is the message as I understand it.
		
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that and everyone is playing ball bar Corbyn, so basically getting her political posturing in first again, so so tiresome


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 16, 2019)

fundy said:



			that and everyone is playing ball bar Corbyn, so basically getting her political posturing in first again, so so tiresome
		
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Yeah, Corbyn really isn't doing himself any favours.


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## fundy (Jan 16, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Yeah, Corbyn really isn't doing himself any favours.
		
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first time ive watched any of it for a very long time, he got destroyed by Gove earlier and now May sticking the knife in.

Its utterly unfathomable that the least successful government certainly of my time is still capable of ridiculing the leader of the opposition with little credible comeback

Cant we tell Europe we'll be a year, fire the lot of them and start again (back into the darkness for me!)


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 16, 2019)

I've just watched her statement. I know she said some words and used them in sentences but did she actually say anything that meant anything? There didn't seem to be anything new or different enough to make it worthwhile making a statement


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## Stuart_C (Jan 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've just watched her statement. I know she said some words and used them in sentences but did she actually say anything that meant anything? There didn't seem to be anything new or different enough to make it worthwhile making a statement
		
Click to expand...

Same old rubbish though now she wants everyone else to run round after her and help her. 

 Sheâ€™s had 30months to listen to parliament and refused, now sheâ€™s under the kosh she wants to have dialogue.....

â€œThe door remains openâ€ is more come and listen to me and let me brainwash you more like.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 16, 2019)

Corbyn has the same problem as May, he has a party of mixed opinion. If they both make a hard decision their parties will break up. Which in the end for the electorate is good. 
It was interesting that voters now are influenced by the brexit position of each party not manifesto.

It was a waste of time, it will be a waste of more time in the next few days ...


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## spongebob59 (Jan 17, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Yeah, Corbyn really isn't doing himself any favours.
		
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_â€œSo Jeremy Corbyn will meet with Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA with no preconditions, but wonâ€™t meet the British Prime Minister without her agreeing to his precondition_


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## spongebob59 (Jan 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Corbyn has the same problem as May, he has a party of mixed opinion. If they both make a hard decision their parties will break up. Which in the end for the electorate is good.
It was interesting that voters now are influenced by the brexit position of each party not manifesto.

It was a waste of time, it will be a waste of more time in the next few days ...
		
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Possibly the real reason he wants no deal off the table, to cause issues within the tories.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 17, 2019)

There's an old quote,  if you aren't part of the solution then you are part of the problem. At the moment I don't see any of the key party leaders being part of the solution so.................................


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## chrisd (Jan 17, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Possibly the real reason he wants no deal off the table, to cause issues within the tories.
		
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Wanting no deal off the table is just a ruse to stop him having to get involved in real issues and properly state his case


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Possibly the real reason he wants no deal off the table, to cause issues within the tories.
		
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I find his logic hard to follow.  If you remove 'No Deal' from the table then what is your 'backstop' in negotiations with the EU?   How can anyone suggest that we say to the EU that we will definitely be accepting a Deal from them but we might Stay.   Pathetic, absolutely Pathetic!!


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## Imurg (Jan 17, 2019)

You simply can't take No Deal off the table because it's an integral part of the discussions.
It's a major bargaining chip because they certainly don't want it.
Assuming Corbyn is ok to leave the EU with a deal, he has to be willing to leave without a deal as well because it's the only outcome if a deal cannot be reached.
Which part of " if we can't reach an agreement on a deal then we leave without a deal" do people not understand?

No deal is a real possibility - assuming the government don't go back on their pledge to honour the will of the people.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 17, 2019)

We are the laughing stock of Europe because our  mpâ€™s are so entrenched and polarised in their own view they cannot see that the EU is in the position it is in because they all have the same view.
It reminds me of class of 5 years old running around trying to push Europeâ€™s strongest man over.
Clueless and embarrassing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2019)

fundy said:



			first time ive watched any of it for a very long time, he got destroyed by Gove earlier *and now May sticking the knife in.*

Its utterly unfathomable that the least successful government certainly of my time is still capable of ridiculing the leader of the opposition with little credible comeback

Cant we tell Europe we'll be a year, fire the lot of them and start again (back into the darkness for me!)
		
Click to expand...

Surely if May wants to get input across the political spectrum you don't get Corbyn involved by publicly sticking the knife in - effectively trying to bully Corbyn into talks - as if she holds all the cards...

Corbyn is accused of playing politics - maybe - but May can equally be accused - and it is *she *who is in the desperate position needing his support.   Corbyn is the leader of the opposition with his primary goal being getting the Tories out of government - the Tories are in a mess - they are a disgrace of a government - it is therefore understandable that he might offer his support to May on his terms and his timescales.  But bottom line is that he *must *talk with May.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've just watched her statement. I know she said some words and used them in sentences but did she actually say anything that meant anything? There didn't seem to be anything new or different enough to make it worthwhile making a statement
		
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Indeed - it seemed pure and simple party politicking on her part - having a go at Corbyn... nothing else of any note was said.


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## IanM (Jan 17, 2019)

Imurg said:



			You simply can't take No Deal off the table because it's an integral part of the discussions.
It's a major bargaining chip

No deal is a real possibility - assuming the government don't go back on their pledge to honour the will of the people.
		
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Thatâ€™s exactly what is happening........ Taking No Deal off the table means EU doesnâ€™t need to budge. 3rd Thursday in July for 2nd Referendum.  Options will be stay in or leave on Mays fudge

No deal is better.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 17, 2019)

Any minute now her batteries will need changing.

Strongandstablestrongandmypreciousunionmyprecnothinghaschangnothinghassssss


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## jp5 (Jan 17, 2019)

Think we all know no-deal is not a serious option given the state of this country.

Leavers had the opportunity to be out of the EU in 80 days with Mrs May's deal. I suspect they may come to regret voting it down.


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## IanM (Jan 17, 2019)

They didnt.... the HoC did.   Ignoring the Referendum.


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Surely if May wants to get input across the political spectrum you don't get Corbyn involved by publicly sticking the knife in - effectively trying to bully Corbyn into talks - as if she holds all the cards...

Corbyn is accused of playing politics - maybe - but May can equally be accused - and it is *she *who is in the desperate position needing his support.   Corbyn is the leader of the opposition with his primary goal being getting the Tories out of government - the Tories are in a mess - they are a disgrace of a government - it is therefore understandable that he might offer his support to May on his terms and his timescales.  But bottom line is that he *must *talk with May.
		
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Didn't she "stick the knife in" after he said he wouldn't meet until she removed No Deal? On this one I have some sympathy for May but it also reinforces what I think about Corbyn. At a time when when its clear there is no consensus in the House, it blatantly obvious that division needs to be dropped and that they need to work together.

Its been interesting to watch MEP's in Brussels speaking in the EU parliament. Even Guy Verhofstad is being nice-ish. They want a deal and recognise a compromise of some description is needed.

As an aside, just what is wrong with going for No Deal now and beginning talks on deals immediately thereafter? People throw around No Deal but just what is No Deal?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 17, 2019)

I don't know if this is an old one but it made me smile


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			As an aside, just what is wrong with going for No Deal now and beginning talks on deals immediately thereafter? People throw around No Deal but just what is No Deal?
		
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A Managed No Deal.  Its a shame we cant keep it very simple and go for a free trade agreement that would solve the Irish problem and agree to make a divorce payment.


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## Foxholer (Jan 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			A Managed No Deal.  Its a shame we cant keep it very simple and go for a free trade agreement that would solve the Irish problem and agree to make a divorce payment.
		
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That would be 'a Deal' then!

But one I'd certainly be in favour of.

Though I suspect the EU's attitude would remain intransigently in 'punishment' mode.


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2019)

I fail to see why we're getting so exercised/surprised - it was always going to come down to this hiatus.

You ask 60m people a binary choice; spread over such a large number of subjective opinions it was always going to be within a few percent of 50:50.  You then ask 600+ people (MPs) selected from the same population to take forward the result. However those MPs are members of tribal factions in HoC: mostly Labour or Conservative: numerically this means there's about 150+ MPs on each side who either agree or disagree with the original outcome. So if the Party Whips have any power at best the Government of the day can only  rely on 25% being supporters ! Thus with only 150 reliable supporters the opposition vote (~300) along with the 150+ Tories against then the motion was doomed by the HoC structure.

Whether it is Theresa May or any other leader will make absolutely no difference: given that the 600+MPs are full of their own self importance (a pre-qualification for being a politician) they will hang on to their positions rather than loose face. Labour leadership wish to claim they could do better but the can't - the numbers will be against JC in the same way they stack up against TM.

Consequently there is no coherent stance with which to fight our corner. A fight where the 'partner' is a bureaucracy with the sole intent being to ensure no change to protect the flimsy base premise. Our only bet is to keep talking while moving to a WTO regime which will pressurise Brussels to bring forward into the negotiations the future trade talks which they previously and nonsensically said could not take place simultaneously. This was patent rubbish and obviously stopped any negotiating in good faith.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 17, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Think we all know no-deal is not a serious option given the state of this country.

Leavers had the opportunity to be out of the EU in 80 days with Mrs May's deal. I suspect they may come to regret voting it down.
		
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I disagree, the EU deal was basically "You can leave but we will still tell you what you can and cannot do" which is a non starter in my book. No deal is a better option, switch to WTO and forge new deals with whoever we want on agreed terms. 
This is turning into a game of chicken to see who backs down first.


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## Foxholer (Jan 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			I fail to see why we're getting so exercised/surprised - it was always going to come down to this hiatus.

You ask 60m people a binary choice; spread over such a large number of subjective opinions it was always going to be within a few percent of 50:50.  You then ask 600+ people (MPs) selected from the same population to take forward the result. However those MPs are members of tribal factions in HoC: mostly Labour or Conservative: numerically this means there's about 150+ MPs on each side who either agree or disagree with the original outcome. So if the Party Whips have any power at best the Government of the day can only  rely on 25% being supporters ! Thus with only 150 reliable supporters the opposition vote (~300) along with the 150+ Tories against then the motion was doomed by the HoC structure.

Whether it is Theresa May or any other leader will make absolutely no difference: given that the 600+MPs are full of their own self importance (a pre-qualification for being a politician) they will hang on to their positions rather than loose face. Labour leadership wish to claim they could do better but the can't - the numbers will be against JC in the same way they stack up against TM.

Consequently there is no coherent stance with which to fight our corner. A fight where the 'partner' is a bureaucracy with the sole intent being to ensure no change to protect the flimsy base premise. Our only bet is to keep talking while moving to a WTO regime which will pressurise Brussels to bring forward into the negotiations the future trade talks which they previously and nonsensically said could not take place simultaneously. This was patent rubbish and obviously stopped any negotiating in good faith.
		
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And worth noting that most MPs, across all parties, are actually Remainers. It was only the frustration of Cameron from UKIP/'Conservative rebels' that started this process. Had he asked Parliament whether to invoke A50, rather than opting for a referendum, I'm pretty certain he'd have got a pretty strong 'No'. But that's all hypothetical.

I'm definitely moving further towards opting for 'No Deal' being the only way to get the EU to actually do a more reasonable deal - or at least commit to establishing the likes of FTA/Customs Union, common standards, Financial Passporting etc. that is so important to UK - and most of these are important to EU members too. As Socket posted, the Irish Border issue could be eliminated (it would simply disappear) by such a 'deal'.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 17, 2019)

Best speech Iâ€™ve heard in this sorry state we are in is David Lammys pity more politicians are not as honest as him. If I could post a link to his speech I would.


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Best speech Iâ€™ve heard in this sorry state we are in is David Lammys pity more politicians are not as honest as him. If I could post a link to his speech I would.
		
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You need to broaden your net and listen to more of his speeches. He's not far behind Diane Abbott in being a racist.

For example, he was asked why he wasn't on the Labour front benches. His response, "you need to go and ask the white men on the front bench." When being interviewed about the Grenfell inquiry, "why have they appointed a straight white guy?"

He's a great orator but look beyond the odd decent speech and see what he has to offer as a whole.


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## Dando (Jan 17, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Best speech Iâ€™ve heard in this sorry state we are in is David Lammys pity more politicians are not as honest as him. If I could post a link to his speech I would.
		
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the guy is a first class clown!


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## Rlburnside (Jan 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You need to broaden your net and listen to more of his speeches. He's not far behind Diane Abbott in being a racist.

For example, he was asked why he wasn't on the Labour front benches. His response, "you need to go and ask the white men on the front bench." When being interviewed about the Grenfell inquiry, "why have they appointed a straight white guy?"

He's a great orator but look beyond the odd decent speech and see what he has to offer as a whole.
		
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Only heard this one speech of his and thought it was good, I'll have a look at some of his other speeches


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## user104 (Jan 17, 2019)

ok i`m gonna don my sandwich board ``THE END IS NIGH`` ...........BREXIT................TRUMP..............PUTIN  etc

Not really ........... there has been troubled times in the past lots of em ,but i got a queezy feeling in my gizzard


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## User62651 (Jan 17, 2019)

graphite1205 said:



			ok i`m gonna don my sandwich board ``THE END IS NIGH`` ...........BREXIT................TRUMP..............PUTIN  etc

Not really ........... there has been troubled times in the past lots of em ,but i got a queezy feeling in my gizzard
		
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Dont overthink it. You're still kicking........many aren't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Didn't she "stick the knife in" after he said he wouldn't meet until she removed No Deal? On this one I have some sympathy for May but it also reinforces what I think about Corbyn. At a time when when its clear there is no consensus in the House, it blatantly obvious that division needs to be dropped and that they need to work together.

Its been interesting to watch MEP's in Brussels speaking in the EU parliament. Even Guy Verhofstad is being nice-ish. They want a deal and recognise a compromise of some description is needed.

As an aside, just what is wrong with going for No Deal now and beginning talks on deals immediately thereafter? People throw around No Deal but just what is No Deal?
		
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I agree - she did - in her statement at 10:03pm - when Corbyn had stated his pre-conditions earlier after the vote.  That does not make 'sticking the knife in' any less of a politicking thing to do when she needs to be doing everything she can to get him onboard - by her embracing him - as much as she might well hate doing so and when her political instincts tell her to exploit him not engaging immediately.

I am afraid that as much as some might think No Deal a useful negotiation tactic to try and twist the EU's arm into giving us a better deal - and it may be - and even if such is actually in the gift of the EU given May's Red Lines - I view a No Deal exit, with associated risks, as presenting a reckless, almost callous, disregard for the poorest and most vulnerable of society.  Sorry.  Just how I see it.  There has to be a better way.


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree - she did - in her statement at 10:03pm - when Corbyn had stated his pre-conditions earlier after the vote.  That does not make 'sticking the knife in' any less of a politicking thing to do when she needs to be doing everything she can to get him onboard - by her embracing him - as much as she might well hate doing so and when her political instincts tell her to exploit him not engaging immediately.

I am afraid that as much as some might think No Deal a useful negotiation tactic to try and twist the EU's arm into giving us a better deal - and it may be - and even if such is actually in the gift of the EU given May's Red Lines - I view a No Deal exit, with associated risks, as presenting a reckless, almost callous, disregard for the poorest and most vulnerable of society.  Sorry.  Just how I see it.  There has to be a better way.
		
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As per an earlier question I posed, could someone explain exactly what No Deal entails. And as you "view a No Deal exit, with associated risks, as presenting a reckless, almost callous, disregard for the poorest and most vulnerable of society" maybe you can provide the detail that has led you to that conclusion.


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## chrisd (Jan 17, 2019)

In any negotiation you have to hold some trump cards otherwise you have little or no bargaining power. Nobody wants a no deal where a good deal is possible, but it doesn't take the brain of Britain to know that the EU will walk all over us if no deal is taken off the table. Corbyn well knows this and it's just a ploy to stop him having to engage on his real plan for exiting the EU , as was pointed out earlier he's met several terrorist organisations and I doubt he had any preconditions set before hand

Corbyn is a chancer, nothing more, nothing less!


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## Foxholer (Jan 17, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Best speech Iâ€™ve heard in this sorry state we are in is David Lammys pity more politicians are not as honest as him. If I could post a link to his speech I would.
		
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I think it was this one. 



 There's also another one 




It might have been a good/great speech (I actually think it was), but it was extremely badly presented for a 20 year House member. A pretty polarising politician (certainly to the many '...-ist' bigots) he's only just above Dianne Abbott on my 'idiot' register! Dando's description is pretty apt!


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## bladeplayer (Jan 17, 2019)

Sorry if it bn discussed for ages all i heard was 

No Deal is better than a bad deal
Last Night .  
No deal is disasterous and cant be let happen 

Both sides full of rubbish and lies . 
Playing party politics to the cost of the public 

What am i missing when i hear people say go back and get a better deal ? The deal has been laid down and seemingly wont be changed .. 

As far as i can see and hear  its take this deal r its no deal guys .. 
Not for a min saying im right tho


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## ger147 (Jan 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree - she did - in her statement at 10:03pm - when Corbyn had stated his pre-conditions earlier after the vote.  That does not make 'sticking the knife in' any less of a politicking thing to do when she needs to be doing everything she can to get him onboard - by her embracing him - as much as she might well hate doing so and when her political instincts tell her to exploit him not engaging immediately.

I am afraid that as much as some might think No Deal a useful negotiation tactic to try and twist the EU's arm into giving us a better deal - and it may be - and even if such is actually in the gift of the EU given May's Red Lines - I view a No Deal exit, with associated risks, as presenting a reckless, almost callous, disregard for the poorest and most vulnerable of society.  Sorry.  Just how I see it.  There has to be a better way.
		
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There may well be a better way, I happen to agree with you re. there being a better way than a No Deal exit. However, IMO it is absolutely 100% Corbyn who is playing politics, and for a very simple reason.

May can NOT rule out a No Deal Brexit, it's not within her power to do so. The only legislation currently in place states we leave on the 29th March whether we have a deal in place with the EU or not. And as TM can't get the Tories to support her own deal and the only way to guarantee a deal is to first agree one with the EU and then get the HoC's to vote for it, she obviously can give no such guarantee.

Corbyn knows this fine well which is why he's asking for it as a pre-condition because he knows it's not possible.

All the politicking is coming from Corbyn, not May.


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## Dando (Jan 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I think it was this one. 



 There's also another one 




It might have been a good/great speech (I actually think it was), but it was extremely badly presented for a 20 year House member. A pretty polarising politician (certainly to the many '...-ist' bigots) he's only just above Dianne Abbott on my 'idiot' register! Dando's description is pretty apt!
		
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He bores on about brave decisions taken in the past (nhs) but surely leaving the EU is brave


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			In any negotiation you have to hold some trump cards otherwise you have little or no bargaining power. Nobody wants a no deal where a good deal is possible, but it doesn't take the brain of Britain to know that the EU will walk all over us if no deal is taken off the table. Corbyn well knows this and it's just a ploy to stop him having to engage on his real plan for exiting the EU , as was pointed out earlier he's met several terrorist organisations and I doubt he had any preconditions set before hand

*Corbyn is a chancer, nothing more, nothing less!*

Click to expand...

He's hell bent on causing as much chaos as possible.
He's desperate for us to leave the EU, as that would suit his personal political agenda, but needs May to fail in order to oust her and, hopefully in his eyes, force a general election in the ridiculous hope that he would actually win.
Then he could turn us into a modern day Cuba, with him as dictator .................................. which, obviously, could never work if we were still in the EU.
By causing this chaos, if everything fell to pieces he could point at May and say it was all her fault as she would have been in charge at the time.
He is a devious, divisive worm ....................... he's just rotten to the core.


I hope this makes sense, it does in my head!


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2019)

Slime said:



			He's hell bent on causing as much chaos as possible.
He's desperate for us to leave the EU, as that would suit his personal political agenda, but needs May to fail in order to oust her and, hopefully in his eyes, force a general election in the ridiculous hope that he would actually win.
Then he could turn us into a modern day Cuba, with him as dictator .................................. which, obviously, could never work if we were still in the EU.
By causing this chaos, if everything fell to pieces he could point at May and say it was all her fault as she would have been in charge at the time.
He is a devious, divisive worm ....................... he's just rotten to the core.


I hope this makes sense, it does in my head!
		
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Over the years I've interviewed hundreds of candidates and (like many of you), you get to understand the liars and the cheats from their rapid eye movements, pauses etc. A give away for me is the overtly ' friendly and familiar' language. Watch Corbyn, McConnell and Watson and I reckon you wouldn't trust them with your change from buying a round!!


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## chrisd (Jan 17, 2019)

Just watching Tony Blair being interviewed  - one if the biggest liars in British political history saying that if a 2nd referendum took place and voted 51 - 49 to stay then everyone would accept it ðŸ¤”ðŸ¤”ðŸ¤”


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## harpo_72 (Jan 17, 2019)

Corbyn is damned either way you look at it ... he has opted not to participate by making a stipulation. Now we are all saying itâ€™s his fault. But frankly he has done nothing, the referendum was offered by the Tories. They/ Cameron was voted in off the back of it and it held his party together. 

Corbyn finds himself in a quandary, his party has the same divisions some want to remain others want to leave. 
However irrespective of this rift in his party also being exposed, he knows if he participates in any way or form, and it goes a bit sh@t shaped, the press and the Tories will blame him...

Best thing to do is stand on the side lines, vote for what is okay and oppose what is not. Make a decision about your party line and ask those who differ in their opinion to leave. 

Corbyn will never be prime minister, he has baggage that is pretty unacceptable even for tactical voters .. Labour need to change him or wither into a minority opposition.


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Corbyn is damned either way you look at it ... he has opted not to participate by making a stipulation. Now we are all saying itâ€™s his fault. But frankly he has done nothing, *the referendum was offered by the Tories*. They/ Cameron was voted in off the back of it and it held his party together.

Corbyn finds himself in a quandary, his party has the same divisions some want to remain others want to leave.
However irrespective of this rift in his party also being exposed, he knows if he participates in any way or form, and it goes a bit sh@t shaped, the press and the Tories will blame him...

Best thing to do is stand on the side lines, vote for what is okay and oppose what is not. Make a decision about your party line and ask those who differ in their opinion to leave.

Corbyn will never be prime minister, he has baggage that is pretty unacceptable even for tactical voters .. Labour need to change him or wither into a minority opposition.
		
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The proposition was put to Parliament and passed!


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## user104 (Jan 17, 2019)




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## harpo_72 (Jan 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			The proposition was put to Parliament and passed!
		
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As was the Iraq war ...


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## funkycoldmedina (Jan 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			The proposition was put to Parliament and passed!
		
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The Tories had a majority


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2019)

Parliament voted overwelmingly to activate article 50 (461 to 89) and both main parties fought an election where their manifestos were in favour of honouring the referendum.


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

funkycoldmedina said:



			The Tories had a majority
		
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It was passed by a majority of 372. The Tories didnâ€™t have a majority of anywhere near that. The proposition had massive cross party support.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2019)

Changing the subject slightly. Without going into the detail of what Michael Gove said in his address to the house I give him 8 out of 10 on the delivery.  Jezza  could do well to take some lessons from him ðŸ‘


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## hors limite (Jan 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Parliament voted overwelmingly to activate article 50 (461 to 89) and both main parties fought an election where their manifestos were in favour of honouring the referendum.
		
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I have never been able to understand the point that is being made here. Each party constructs a manifesto with multiple elements. If you choose to vote for a party, you might support some of those policies but not all. To suggest that a vote for the Conservatives or Labour automatically  translated into support for " honouring the referendum" is a desperate interpretation of the world as you would like it to be.
Similarly, I would like to take issue with your remarks about a "no deal Brexit" causing " bumps in the road". Being a bit worse off might be tolerable if your budget boasts some slack, if it doesn't it isn't. If job losses result that isn't a bump in the road. One of your fellow travellers, Bernard Jenkin, when questioned about the potential impact on the Nissan plant said that Sunderland's Leave voters would find any job losses a price worth paying, I think that he has lost contact with reality., Rees-Mogg was interviewed by Andrew Neil a couple of days ago. His usual breezy support for a no deal had deserted him, his description of it was " survivable". He then went on to parrot his claims for the benefits of zero tariffs and when pressed came up with some marginal savings on a pair of trainers!
There is no parliamentary support for no deal, a compromise will need to be found.


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## drdel (Jan 18, 2019)

hors limite said:



			I have never been able to understand the point that is being made here. Each party constructs a manifesto with multiple elements. If you choose to vote for a party, you might support some of those policies but not all. To suggest that a vote for the Conservatives or Labour automatically  translated into support for " honouring the referendum" is a desperate interpretation of the world as you would like it to be.
Similarly, I would like to take issue with your remarks about a "no deal Brexit" causing " bumps in the road". Being a bit worse off might be tolerable if your budget boasts some slack, if it doesn't it isn't. If job losses result that isn't a bump in the road. One of your fellow travellers, Bernard Jenkin, when questioned about the potential impact on the Toyota plant said that Sunderland's Leave voters would find any job losses a price worth paying, I think that he has lost contact with reality., Rees-Mogg was interviewed by Andrew Neil a couple of days ago. His usual breezy support for a no deal had deserted him, his description of it was " survivable". He then went on to parrot his claims for the benefits of zero tariffs and when pressed came up with some marginal savings on a pair of trainers!
There is no parliamentary support for no deal, a compromise will need to be found.
		
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Of course it is a last resort, only happening if the *two* sizes fail to agree. However in any negotiation there is always the chance talks will fail; there is no other way to negotiate.


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			Of course it is a last resort, only happening if the *two* sizes fail to agree. However in any negotiation there is always the chance talks will fail; there is no other way to negotiate.
		
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Very true, but the question he's asking is 

"How many job losses will be acceptable for the ardent No Deal fans? How much of a bump in the road is acceptable?"

My Company exports over 50% of its products to the US and the EU. We don't currently know what the impact of a No Deal will be, but any financial impact will result in cuts. Depending on the impact then those cuts could be jobs. Maybe mine. So, how many job cuts are acceptable?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Very true, but the question he's asking is

"How many job losses will be acceptable for the ardent No Deal fans? How much of a bump in the road is acceptable?"

My Company exports over 50% of its products to the US and the EU. We don't currently know what the impact of a No Deal will be, but any financial impact will result in cuts. Depending on the impact then those cuts could be jobs. Maybe mine. So, how many job cuts are acceptable?
		
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None should be the answer mate - one single job loss is unacceptable but I believe the people that are happy to take some â€œshort termâ€ loss are either no longer working or are in a job which has zero dealing with the EU or wonâ€™t have any affect when we leave the EU - far too many donâ€™t care about the potential consequences of a no deal


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			None should be the answer mate - one single job loss is unacceptable but I believe the people that are happy to take some â€œshort termâ€ loss are either no longer working or are in a job which has zero dealing with the EU or wonâ€™t have any affect when we leave the EU - far too many donâ€™t care about the potential consequences of a no deal
		
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I genuinely don't believe that anyone on here would willingly sacrifice jobs. However, the more I listen to the Ardent No Deal Brexiteers (not Leavers, the people who actually want No Deal) then I just can't get my head round the fact that they're willing to sacrifice jobs on this altar. There are more than enough reasons already for job losses. We don't need to volunteer for more.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Very true, but the question he's asking is

"How many job losses will be acceptable for the ardent No Deal fans? How much of a bump in the road is acceptable?"

My Company exports over 50% of its products to the US and the EU. We don't currently know what the impact of a No Deal will be, but any financial impact will result in cuts. Depending on the impact then those cuts could be jobs. Maybe mine. So, how many job cuts are acceptable?
		
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My daughters plans to expand her company into Canada and SA this year have been shelved due to Brexit.
Gutted for her as she has put so much work into it.


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

hors limite said:



			I have never been able to understand the point that is being made here. Each party constructs a manifesto with multiple elements. If you choose to vote for a party, you might support some of those policies but not all. To suggest that a vote for the Conservatives or Labour automatically  translated into support for " honouring the referendum" is a desperate interpretation of the world as you would like it to be.
Similarly, I would like to take issue with your remarks about a "no deal Brexit" causing " bumps in the road". Being a bit worse off might be tolerable if your budget boasts some slack, if it doesn't it isn't. If job losses result that isn't a bump in the road. One of your fellow travellers, Bernard Jenkin, when questioned about the potential impact on the Toyota plant said that Sunderland's Leave voters would find any job losses a price worth paying, I think that he has lost contact with reality., Rees-Mogg was interviewed by Andrew Neil a couple of days ago. His usual breezy support for a no deal had deserted him, his description of it was " survivable". He then went on to parrot his claims for the benefits of zero tariffs and when pressed came up with some marginal savings on a pair of trainers!
There is no parliamentary support for no deal, a compromise will need to be found.
		
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Pretty much on the button, but as an aside Toyota are 150 miles from Sunderland.


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## hors limite (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Pretty much on the button, but as an aside Toyota are 150 miles from Sunderland.
		
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Mea culpa - I should have said Nissan.


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			None should be the answer mate - one single job loss is unacceptable but I believe the people that are happy to take some â€œshort termâ€ loss are either no longer working or are in a job which has zero dealing with the EU or wonâ€™t have any affect when we leave the EU - far too many donâ€™t care about the potential consequences of a no deal
		
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bluewolf said:



			I genuinely don't believe that anyone on here would willingly sacrifice jobs. However, the more I listen to the Ardent No Deal Brexiteers (not Leavers, the people who actually want No Deal) then I just can't get my head round the fact that they're willing to sacrifice jobs on this altar. There are more than enough reasons already for job losses. We don't need to volunteer for more.
		
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I pretty much agree with where you're both coming from but would ask the question how many jobs do you think have been lost in the UK to Europe in the last 30-20-10-5 years as various countries have used incentives and subsidies to entice companies to set up in their country?

An example of what Tata Steel did. Close the blast furnace on Teesside, laying off thousands. Went into negotiations with The Netherlands to open a new plant there. Scooped Â£640 million from the EU in environmental grants for reducing the CO2 emissions on Teesside to close on zero because they shut the plant. And received millions in grants and tax breaks to open a new plant in The Netherlands.

If you include ship building on the Tyne, Wear and Tees to the job losses at British Steel Teesside/Hartlepool/Skinningrove/Consett + ICI, that over 130,000 job losses whilst in the EU. Add in the closures of Siemens, Fujitsu and Vickers Armstrong. You'll be hard pushed to find any sympathy in the northeast of England for the EU or Westminster. And in the last 5 years the company I worked for shipped a good chunk of manufacturing to the Czech Republic ------ this is the balancing of economies that is happening and has been happening for years. The rich countries get poorer. 

And finally, where was all the weeping and wailing from the rest of the UK whilst this was going on? You talk of one job being one job too many. Where was your voice whilst the Northeast, and the northwest was getting its heart ripped out?


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I pretty much agree with where you're both coming from but would ask the question how many jobs do you think have been lost in the UK to Europe in the last 30-20-10-5 years as various countries have used incentives and subsidies to entice companies to set up in their country?

An example of what Tata Steel did. Close the blast furnace on Teesside, laying off thousands. Went into negotiations with The Netherlands to open a new plant there. Scooped Â£640 million from the EU in environmental grants for reducing the CO2 emissions on Teesside to close on zero because they shut the plant. And received millions in grants and tax breaks to open a new plant in The Netherlands.

If you include ship building on the Tyne, Wear and Tees to the job losses at British Steel Teesside/Hartlepool/Skinningrove/Consett + ICI, that over 130,000 job losses whilst in the EU. Add in the closures of Siemens, Fujitsu and Vickers Armstrong. You'll be hard pushed to find any sympathy in the northeast of England for the EU or Westminster. And in the last 5 years the company I worked for shipped a good chunk of manufacturing to the Czech Republic ------ this is the balancing of economies that is happening and has been happening for years. The rich countries get poorer. 

And finally, where was all the weeping and wailing from the rest of the UK whilst this was going on? You talk of one job being one job too many. Where was your voice whilst the Northeast, and the northwest was getting its heart ripped out?
		
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I'm in the North West and have already suffered redundancy once due to the work being moved to another part of the country. So the answer to your question is that I was out looking for work. My old man lost his business as a result of the recession in 2008. My sister lost her job at the Council because of the funding being pulled as part of austerity. 

Please don't try to lecture me on job losses. It's areas and industries like mine that will suffer the most in any economic downturn. I have genuine legitimate concerns.


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## hors limite (Jan 18, 2019)

I agree with your sentiments.The loss of manufacturing over the decades is a big subject. My strong personal opinion is that the Westminster government is too focused on the South East. This has been exacerbated by the practice of the major parties of parachuting into their constituencies in the rest of the country party apparatchiks with no links to or understanding of those areas or their people.These MPs with no life experience outside politics end up with the" Westminster bubble focus" and are more concerned with their personal ambitions rather than the defence of local industry and jobs.


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I'm in the North West and have already suffered redundancy once due to the work being moved to another part of the country. So the answer to your question is that I was out looking for work. My old man lost his business as a result of the recession in 2008. My sister lost her job at the Council because of the funding being pulled as part of austerity.

Please don't try to lecture me on job losses. It's areas and industries like mine that will suffer the most in any economic downturn. I have genuine legitimate concerns.
		
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Maybe you miss my point. The EU have created a climate that makes it beneficial to move work from Northern Europe to Southern Europe. All of that happened whilst the UK was fully engaged in Europe. Staying in doesn't guarantee employment. Leaving may well lead to an increase in speed of job losses but job losses would happen anyway as companies relocate to where cheap labour is, and tax breaks and grants make it doubly beneficial. That is the economic balancing I'm on about. 

My old employer, and probably many more, took advantage of those incentives years ago. Their profits haven't dipped at all but many people in the UK lost their jobs. There is no loyalty in business, and business leaders will up sticks if and when it suits with no second glance at whatever the political choices people make.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I pretty much agree with where you're both coming from but would ask the question how many jobs do you think have been lost in the UK to Europe in the last 30-20-10-5 years as various countries have used incentives and subsidies to entice companies to set up in their country?

An example of what Tata Steel did. Close the blast furnace on Teesside, laying off thousands. Went into negotiations with The Netherlands to open a new plant there. Scooped Â£640 million from the EU in environmental grants for reducing the CO2 emissions on Teesside to close on zero because they shut the plant. And received millions in grants and tax breaks to open a new plant in The Netherlands.

If you include ship building on the Tyne, Wear and Tees to the job losses at British Steel Teesside/Hartlepool/Skinningrove/Consett + ICI, that over 130,000 job losses whilst in the EU. Add in the closures of Siemens, Fujitsu and Vickers Armstrong. You'll be hard pushed to find any sympathy in the northeast of England for the EU or Westminster. And in the last 5 years the company I worked for shipped a good chunk of manufacturing to the Czech Republic ------ this is the balancing of economies that is happening and has been happening for years. The rich countries get poorer.

And finally, where was all the weeping and wailing from the rest of the UK whilst this was going on? You talk of one job being one job too many. Where was your voice whilst the Northeast, and the northwest was getting its heart ripped out?
		
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How many of those manufacturing and industrial jobs have been lost because of our own government - the same government that people believe are going to resurrect all these jobs and manufacturing when we leave the EU , how much of these job losses has been because the Is part of the EU ? 

If we werenâ€™t in the EU are these companies who left to increase their profits going to suddenly stick around or will even more jump across to the EU due to free trade borders - my parents ended up moving to Saudi to get work because of government not EU cut backs.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I'm in the North West and have already suffered redundancy once due to the work being moved to another part of the country. So the answer to your question is that I was out looking for work. My old man lost his business as a result of the recession in 2008. My sister lost her job at the Council because of the funding being pulled as part of austerity.

Please don't try to lecture me on job losses. It's areas and industries like mine that will suffer the most in any economic downturn. I have genuine legitimate concerns.
		
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The point he was making related to the jobs that have been taken away already by the EU offering subsidies to business so they can move location to other countries with cheaper labour costs.  That bumpy road was not due to Brexit but seems as though its not so bad as it was not the nasty Tories doing it.


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe you miss my point. The EU have created a climate that makes it beneficial to move work from Northern Europe to Southern Europe. All of that happened whilst the UK was fully engaged in Europe. Staying in doesn't guarantee employment. Leaving may well lead to an increase in speed of job losses but job losses would happen anyway as companies relocate to where cheap labour is, and tax breaks and grants make it doubly beneficial. That is the economic balancing I'm on about. 

My old employer, and probably many more, took advantage of those incentives years ago. Their profits haven't dipped at all but many people in the UK lost their jobs. There is no loyalty in business, and business leaders will up sticks if and when it suits with no second glance at whatever the political choices people make.
		
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I think we've bypassed each other's points. My only question was "How many job losses, as a direct result of a Hard Brexit, are people happy to accept?"  I'm not referencing an orderly exit from the EU. Ive accepted that we're leaving. I've not asked for a 2nd referendum.


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many of those manufacturing and industrial jobs have been lost because of our own government - the same government that people believe are going to resurrect all these jobs and manufacturing when we leave the EU , how much of these job losses has been because the Is part of the EU ?

If we werenâ€™t in the EU are these companies who left to increase their profits going to suddenly stick around or will even more jump across to the EU due to free trade borders - my parents ended up moving to Saudi to get work because of government not EU cut backs.
		
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Does our govt create incentives and tax breaks in the Czech Republic? Does our govt give hundreds of millions of *EU* grants to companies? Did the EU block cheap Chinese imports of steel? Yes they did when Germany squealed but it was 4 months too late for Teesside.

You're as bad as Hogan with EU good UK bad attitude. Open your eyes and at least be balanced in the debate. My original post in this part of the discussion started with I agree with you and Wolfie but... the EU doesn't give unicorns to the UK, only the poorer Southern European countries.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many of those manufacturing and industrial jobs have been lost because of our own government - the same government that people believe are going to resurrect all these jobs and manufacturing when we leave the EU , how much of these job losses has been because the Is part of the EU ? 

If we werenâ€™t in the EU are these companies who left to increase their profits going to suddenly stick around or will even more jump across to the EU due to free trade borders - my parents ended up moving to Saudi to get work because of government not EU cut backs.
		
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Should Westminster have got into a subsidy bidding war with Brussels?


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I think we've bypassed each other's points. My only question was "How many job losses, as a direct result of a Hard Brexit, are people happy to accept?"  I'm not referencing an orderly exit from the EU. Ive accepted that we're leaving. I've not asked for a 2nd referendum.
		
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At least you've accepted the UK is leaving, I'm still hoping it won't happen.

Any job loss is unacceptable but it will happen. Its not just the person of the shop floor that suffers horrendously, as you've experienced. Where is the Corporation Tax from that shrinking, disappearing industry? Where are the jobs for the service industry that supported the company that's just folded? It will be horrendous. And the UK is relying on a good govt to manage the fallout... that'll go well.


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The point he was making related to the jobs that have been taken away already by the EU offering subsidies to business so they can move location to other countries with cheaper labour costs.  That bumpy road was not due to Brexit but seems as though its not so bad as it was not the nasty Tories doing it.
		
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Did they force them to move? Did they tailor the subsidies specifically for that business? Or did the Business take advantage of an existing deal. Who do you blame when big business avoids paying tax? The business or the Government for leaving the loophole. 
These businesses didn't have to move. They made the choice. Blame them.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many of those manufacturing and industrial jobs have been lost because of our own government - the same government that people believe are going to resurrect all these jobs and manufacturing when we leave the EU , how much of these job losses has been because the Is part of the EU ?

If we werenâ€™t in the EU are these companies who left to increase their profits going to suddenly stick around or will even more jump across to the EU due to free trade borders - my parents ended up moving to Saudi to get work because of government not EU cut backs.
		
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You just dont seem to understand business.  Governments dont make businesses, other than public sector the vast majority of jobs are produced by small businesses, people that take chances and employ others. Do you think the EU cares anything about these small businesses or their employees.

Whether we are in the EU or out of it we have to stand on our own two feet as a country but if you think the precious EU would shed a tear if your job was moved abroad helped with a wedge of EU money which probably came from our tax payers, then think again


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			At least you've accepted the UK is leaving, I'm still hoping it won't happen.

Any job loss is unacceptable but it will happen. Its not just the person of the shop floor that suffers horrendously, as you've experienced. Where is the Corporation Tax from that shrinking, disappearing industry? Where are the jobs for the service industry that supported the company that's just folded? It will be horrendous. And the UK is relying on a good govt to manage the fallout... that'll go well.
		
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We're in complete agreement. It's going to be terrible for several years. Just as my kids are entering the job market. Is Brexit worth that? Not for me. Not even 1%. 

Still, if I had a few hundred million quid spare I could always short the market and make billions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Does our govt create incentives and tax breaks in the Czech Republic? Does our govt give hundreds of millions of *EU* grants to companies? Did the EU block cheap Chinese imports of steel? Yes they did when Germany squealed but it was 4 months too late for Teesside.

You're as bad as Hogan with EU good UK bad attitude. Open your eyes and at least be balanced in the debate. My original post in this part of the discussion started with I agree with you and Wolfie but... the EU doesn't give unicorns to the UK, only the poorer Southern European countries.
		
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Do you not blame the businesses for doing it as opposed to the EU ? 

The UK certainly doesnâ€™t mind spending money around their â€œfinancialâ€ services 

It just seems to me that anything that has gone wrong over the past 30nyears etc people now seem quite quickly to point the finger at the EU - it seems our successive governments since the 70â€™s who were extremely culpable are getting away with it hence why people want to put their faith in them


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Did they force them to move? Did they tailor the subsidies specifically for that business? Or did the Business take advantage of an existing deal. Who do you blame when big business avoids paying tax? The business or the Government for leaving the loophole.
These businesses didn't have to move. They made the choice. Blame them.
		
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I don't blame anyone from avoiding tax as long as they pay the lawful amount. I would not wish to pay more tax than I needed to.

Yes, the business probably did take advantage of an existing deal but why was the deal made available, was it to encourage them to relocate to areas with cheaper wage rates and poorer economies. If you believe this is OK then you cant complain about the job losses.


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you not blame the businesses for doing it as opposed to the EU ?

The UK certainly doesnâ€™t mind spending money around their â€œfinancialâ€ services

It just seems to me that anything that has gone wrong over the past 30nyears etc people now seem quite quickly to point the finger at the EU - it seems our successive governments since the 70â€™s who were extremely culpable are getting away with it hence why people want to put their faith in them
		
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If you have a business making virtually zero profit in a tough market and the Czech Republic came to you and offered to cover building costs, start up costs and tax breaks AND you'd cut your wage bill by 70% what would you do? With a business head on what would you do? You'd be a massive fool not to take advantage.

Tata Steel moved to The Netherlands on the back of huge grants and tax breaks, building a brand new furnace, not one that was due a relining. The UK govt were approached and asked if they could match those grants. EU law forbids those sorts of subsidies to established businesses. The UK couldn't match those incentives from a legal standpoint.

Yes I blame the EU for creating a climate that incentivises businesses to move, using your money and mine, whilst the member country has its hands tied behind its back. We, if we're lucky enough to keep our jobs, then contribute to the benefits those out of workers now need AND continue, via EU grants that is also our money, to subsidise the business that's moved.

As for your glib statement about the UK spending money on financial services. You've already tried that one and I pointed out that it was a Canadian businessman that brokered a private deal with finance houses for Canary Wharf. There were also tax breaks allowed, *not money spent*, because these were start-ups, just like Tata Steel moving to The Netherlands.

The company I worked for is German. Their German base has also shrunk as the company has used EU incentives to move work elsewhere. All the Northern European governments are suffering the same whilst taking advantages of the breaks to bring in new business. Its a flawed business model in that its cyclical. Manufacturing disappears to be replaced with service industries.

EDIT: and its a drive to the bottom, or at least part way there. If one country makes Â£100m, and another country Â£20m and there is a balancing of economies, you will end up with two economies of Â£60m. That's very simplistic but as there's only so much buying power and all that's happening is what is made in one country then get made cheaper in another. The price to the customer stays the same, or drops slightly(sadly I know this as a fact), but the social care costs in country A rise.


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't blame anyone from avoiding tax as long as they pay the lawful amount. I would not wish to pay more tax than I needed to.

Yes, the business probably did take advantage of an existing deal but why was the deal made available, was it to encourage them to relocate to areas with cheaper wage rates and poorer economies. If you believe this is OK then you cant complain about the job losses.
		
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I haven't once complained about those job losses. Not one solitary time. I'm concerned that a No Deal Brexit will cause such a disruption that it will lead to job losses. If this is the case then it will be 100% self inflicted. 
The question I asked was "How many job losses are acceptable?"  
You're trying to conflate 2 different situations and then using one to justify the other. 
Job losses as a result of a business moving to take advantage of a cheaper workforce and cheaper costs is a global problem, not just an EU one. 
Job losses as a result of shooting oneself in the foot appears to be solely a British problem.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I haven't once complained about those job losses. Not one solitary time. I'm concerned that a No Deal Brexit will cause such a disruption that it will lead to job losses. If this is the case then it will be 100% self inflicted.
The question I asked was "How many job losses are acceptable?" 
You're trying to conflate 2 different situations and then using one to justify the other.
Job losses as a result of a business moving to take advantage of a cheaper workforce and cheaper costs is a global problem, not just an EU one.
Job losses as a result of shooting oneself in the foot appears to be solely a British problem.
		
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Please  explain what you perceive my preferred position to be regarding us leaving the EU. I ask this as you seem to be making arguments based on some assumption.


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Please  explain what you perceive my preferred position to be regarding us leaving the EU. I ask this as you seem to be making arguments based on some assumption.
		
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I haven't referenced your preferred position at all tbh. I'm not sure what you're reading to suggest that?

From reading your posts, I'd hazard a guess that you'd prefer a good deal but if that wasn't available then you'd gladly accept No Deal in its place. 

Unfortunately, I very much doubt that there is a good deal. Or at least not one good enough. There are too many people wanting too many things on either side of the negotiation. There are too many red lines. Too much intransigence. And, unfortunately, on our side of the negotiation, too many snouts in the trough.


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I haven't once complained about those job losses. Not one solitary time. I'm concerned that a No Deal Brexit will cause such a disruption that it will lead to job losses. If this is the case then it will be 100% self inflicted.
The question I asked was "How many job losses are acceptable?" 
You're trying to conflate 2 different situations and then using one to justify the other.
*Job losses as a result of a business moving to take advantage of a cheaper workforce and cheaper costs is a global problem, not just an EU one.*
Job losses as a result of shooting oneself in the foot appears to be solely a British problem.
		
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On the highlighted sentence; the EU is protectionist to imports from outside the EU, and in effect protects itself from cheap labour from those countries. However, what protection is it giving Northern European countries by creating a climate that incentivises businesses to move within the EU? What protection is it giving workers in those countries? If it was increasing the manufacturing base, and incentivising exports to outside the EU, BRILLIANT, but its not. Its creating bigger problems in the established countries in the north. Ergo, the EU is to blame.


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## IanM (Jan 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My daughters plans to expand her company into Canada and SA this year have been shelved due to Brexit.
Gutted for her as she has put so much work into it.
		
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...or her perceived impact of Brexit?  Or is this another tall tale?

How long have Canada and South Africa been in the EU?  How will the UK leaving (which it won't) stop trade with those countries exactly?  Do tell


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			On the highlighted sentence; the EU is protectionist to imports from outside the EU, and in effect protects itself from cheap labour from those countries. However, what protection is it giving Northern European countries by creating a climate that incentivises businesses to move within the EU? What protection is it giving workers in those countries? If it was increasing the manufacturing base, and incentivising exports to outside the EU, BRILLIANT, but its not. Its creating bigger problems in the established countries in the north. Ergo, the EU is to blame.
		
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So then, who was to blame when my old factory upped sticks and moved to Sheffield to take advantage of the government grants available and the cheaper workforce?


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Hollandâ€™s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of Â£80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with Â£20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

Just a quick trawl, no doubt some of it might be open to some questioning.


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			So then, who was to blame when my old factory upped sticks and moved to Sheffield to take advantage of the government grants available and the cheaper workforce?
		
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Since when has two wrongs made a right?

But do you agree that the EU is wrong to incentivise as it does?


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Since when has two wrongs made a right?

But do you agree that the EU is wrong to incentivise as it does?
		
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Tricky question. Would I prefer they didn't? Yes, definitely. Is it wrong? Let me think about it. 

With regards to the 2 wrongs. 
Plenty of people I worked with blamed the Company for moving. Very few blamed the Government. Those same people now blame the EU for companies moving. Why? The only difference is distance.


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Hollandâ€™s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of Â£80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with Â£20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

Just a quick trawl, no doubt some of it might be open to some questioning.
		
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Slightly tickled at Dyson being in there tbh.


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Slightly tickled at Dyson being in there tbh.
		
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I must admit after hearing all the flak James Dyson got for moving manufacturing to the Far East it does seem odd that the EU paid for some of it. I think the detail maybe that he got a grant for some of his EU based work but the journey who wrote the article thought it added weight to skew the reporting slightly.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I haven't referenced your preferred position at all tbh. I'm not sure what you're reading to suggest that?

From reading your posts, I'd hazard a guess that you'd prefer a good deal but if that wasn't available then you'd gladly accept No Deal in its place.

Unfortunately, I very much doubt that there is a good deal. Or at least not one good enough. There are too many people wanting too many things on either side of the negotiation. There are too many red lines. Too much intransigence. And, unfortunately, on our side of the negotiation, too many snouts in the trough.
		
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I asked as I believed you were suggesting I was happy with job losses and thought leaving without a deal was my preferred option. If that is not correct then I have misread your posts.


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## Dando (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Hollandâ€™s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of Â£80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with Â£20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

Just a quick trawl, no doubt some of it might be open to some questioning.
		
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ok, but how have the EU affected UK jobs/manufacturing?


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I asked as I believed you were suggesting I was happy with job losses and thought leaving without a deal was my preferred option. If that is not correct then I have misread your posts.
		
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I can honestly say that I didn't even think that. Never mind write it. My post was aimed squarely at the people who are actively clamouring for a No Deal and accepting that job losses will result. Minford for example.


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## drdel (Jan 18, 2019)

Dando said:



			ok, but how have the EU affected UK jobs/manufacturing?
		
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The EU have procurement regulation based on the principles of fair competition!! Governments are banned from subsidising and the UK plays by these rules - unfortunately other members don't.


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## Dando (Jan 18, 2019)

IanM said:



			...or her perceived impact of Brexit?  Or is this another tall tale?

How long have Canada and South Africa been in the EU?  How will the UK leaving (which it won't) stop trade with those countries exactly?  Do tell
		
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if in doubt blame brexit!


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

Dando said:



			if in doubt blame brexit!
		
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See, now this is a bit odd.. I'm struggling a little bit to believe that you don't understand his point..

My Company has put several Significant Investment projects on hold over the last 18 months due to uncertainty over what would happen with a No Deal Brexit. The last Company I worked at completely shelved one major investment project for the same reason. Now then, it very well may be that Britain post Brexit truly is the Land of milk and honey. No one knows. However, the period between the vote and the actualisation of the decision is a time of tremendous uncertainty for many businesses.


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## JamesR (Jan 18, 2019)

Dando said:



			ok, but how have the EU affected UK jobs/manufacturing?
		
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I suppose anyone who lost their jobs in the UK, under the EU free movement rules, could have gone over to Europe and taken the jobs away from the Slovaks, Poles etc etc. Like they do to us Brits?
You never know after a few years the EU might have given grants for the companys to move back to poor UK


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			See, now this is a bit odd.. I'm struggling a little bit to believe that you don't understand his point..

My Company has put several Significant Investment projects on hold over the last 18 months due to uncertainty over what would happen with a No Deal Brexit. The last Company I worked at completely shelved one major investment project for the same reason. Now then, it very well may be that Britain post Brexit truly is the Land of milk and honey. No one knows. However, the period between the vote and the actualisation of the decision is a time of tremendous uncertainty for many businesses.
		
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Its not just the freezing/shelving. At the time of the vote the Â£Â£ 'v' the â‚¬â‚¬ was Â£1 to â‚¬1.28. Buying in materials at â‚¬1.15 was horrendous. And reporting a dividend that was obviously good in sterling was poor in the Euro.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 18, 2019)

Apparently we are still wanted;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46918009


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## Dando (Jan 18, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Apparently we are still wanted;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46918009

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Itâ€™s our Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£â€™s that are still wanted


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## IanM (Jan 18, 2019)

Dando said:



			Itâ€™s our Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£â€™s that are still wanted
		
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Imagine a golf club where less than 20% of the members pay subs, and the others who don't pay still get to play on Saturday Mornings!!


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## Foxholer (Jan 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Changing the subject slightly. Without going into the detail of what Michael Gove said in his address to the house* I give him 8 out of 10 on the delivery.  Jezza  could do well to take some lessons from him* ðŸ‘
		
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Why so low? Delivery was 9.5+ imo - and I'm definitely not (normally) a Gove fan!

Corbyn is, and imo will always be, a diabolical QT/spontaneous performer - even when he's in a position to really have an impact! And that view is independent of my political views! Yvette Cooper is far superior - and would likely a more successful leader imo.


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## drdel (Jan 18, 2019)

IanM said:



			Imagine a golf club where less than 20% of the members pay subs, and the others who don't pay still get to play on Saturday Mornings!! 

Click to expand...

And where those members get given cash by the self appointed management to go and build their own course(s).

What I don't see from those wishing to stay in the EU is recognition that Brussels tries to redistribute funds to the poorer (under performing?) economies rather inefficiently since the costs of the centre have risen more rapidly in real terms than income!  Consequently the UK would be on the hook for more and more cash that will be used to the benefit of our competitors. Now that's a really sensible move for us!!!!!


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 18, 2019)

A friend on Facebook shared the following post from a group called "Vote Leave, East Anglia".........

"All MP'S from all parties should tell the people the truth about the Lisbon Treaty and what will happen if we don't Leave the EU. ..Google it for yourselves. ... !

Read and BELIEVE! If you Have any doubts about leaving the Corrupt EU and its corrupt unelected Beurocrats of Brussels this will make you change your mind to #LEAVEMEANSLEAVE

What will actually happen if we stay in the EU and has already been agreed. Check it out if you wish:

1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or vetoâ€™s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or vetoâ€™s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen the move is fully cancelled but if not and the UK remains a member itâ€™s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealth
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.; Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UKâ€™s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future what the youths of today think we stole from them?
They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons"

Blimey! I haven't fact checked any of the points raised, I have simply copied and pasted it, but if only all the Remain voters had known this information before the referendum. It would have been a landslide for Leave.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 18, 2019)

IanM said:



			...or her perceived impact of Brexit?  Or is this another tall tale?

How long have Canada and South Africa been in the EU?  How will the UK leaving (which it won't) stop trade with those countries exactly?  Do tell
		
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Her main worry is drop in the value of the Â£ since Leave won the vote and further devalues as a hard Brexit now seems inevitable.

She relies on fast time deliveries as her franchisees are mainly home based with little storage space. Any delays will be very problematic.
She had good plans in place supported by Scottish Government with help and grants.
Don't understand what Canada and SA not being in the EU  has to do with it.


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## JamesR (Jan 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			A friend on Facebook shared the following post from a group called "Vote Leave, East Anglia".........

"All MP'S from all parties should tell the people the truth about the Lisbon Treaty and what will happen if we don't Leave the EU. ..Google it for yourselves. ... !

Read and BELIEVE! If you Have any doubts about leaving the Corrupt EU and its corrupt unelected Beurocrats of Brussels this will make you change your mind to #LEAVEMEANSLEAVE

What will actually happen if we stay in the EU and has already been agreed. Check it out if you wish:

1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or vetoâ€™s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or vetoâ€™s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen the move is fully cancelled but if not and the UK remains a member itâ€™s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealth
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.; Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UKâ€™s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future what the youths of today think we stole from them?
They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons"

Blimey! I haven't fact checked any of the points raised, I have simply copied and pasted it, but if only all the Remain voters had known this information before the referendum. It would have been a landslide for Leave.
		
Click to expand...

Nope ðŸ‘Ž


----------



## JamesR (Jan 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			A friend on Facebook shared the following post from a group called "Vote Leave, East Anglia".........

"All MP'S from all parties should tell the people the truth about the Lisbon Treaty and what will happen if we don't Leave the EU. ..Google it for yourselves. ... !

Read and BELIEVE! If you Have any doubts about leaving the Corrupt EU and its corrupt unelected Beurocrats of Brussels this will make you change your mind to #LEAVEMEANSLEAVE

What will actually happen if we stay in the EU and has already been agreed. Check it out if you wish:

1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or vetoâ€™s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or vetoâ€™s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen the move is fully cancelled but if not and the UK remains a member itâ€™s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealth
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.; Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UKâ€™s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future what the youths of today think we stole from them?
They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons"

Blimey! I haven't fact checked any of the points raised, I have simply copied and pasted it, but if only all the Remain voters had known this information before the referendum. It would have been a landslide for Leave.
		
Click to expand...

Project fear


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## harpo_72 (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
		
Click to expand...

JLR were looking at expanding their business, taking their product manufacturing to higher levels without impacting current sites. They have opened new sites in the UK to build engines and future power systems. 
The government has killed the car business their current tax system and the general bollocks regards diesel emissions has pretty much paralysed the car manufacturers and achieved nothing because we still have pre EU6 d powertrains on the roads with no penalties of note. 
The government has also failed to implement an electrification strategy.. Tesla has worked harder, which is embarrassing! 


Businesses make money, you reduce their profit opportunities and they will look elsewhere. But guess what, this filters to the local economy .. so all your little businesses, yes the ones who think they have freed the country and given us sovereign rule... well your buggered as well, because disposable incomes will vacate the area. 

Oh and the argument we are being under cut by foreign workers taking lower pay... guess what they have honest value system, the slackers donâ€™t! Sort yourselves out, and go back to school, if you want to be paid more.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			JLR were looking at expanding their business, taking their product manufacturing to higher levels without impacting current sites. They have opened new sites in the UK to build engines and future power systems.
The government has killed the car business their current tax system and the general bollocks regards diesel emissions has pretty much paralysed the car manufacturers and achieved nothing because we still have pre EU6 d powertrains on the roads with no penalties of note.
The government has also failed to implement an electrification strategy.. Tesla has worked harder, which is embarrassing!


Businesses make money, you reduce their profit opportunities and they will look elsewhere. But guess what, this filters to the local economy .. so all your little businesses, yes the ones who think they have freed the country and given us sovereign rule... well your buggered as well, because disposable incomes will vacate the area.

*Oh and the argument we are being under cut by foreign workers taking lower pay... guess what they have honest value system, the slackers donâ€™t! Sort yourselves out, and go back to school, if you want to be paid more.*

Click to expand...


Im guessing neither you or your family are in the construction industry? ðŸ¤”


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 18, 2019)

Dando said:



			if in doubt blame brexit!
		
Click to expand...

Do you know what else happened two years ago that caused a 20% devaluation of her spending pound.
If so please enlighten us.


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			JLR were looking at expanding their business, taking their product manufacturing to higher levels without impacting current sites. They have opened new sites in the UK to build engines and future power systems.
The government has killed the car business their current tax system and the general bollocks regards diesel emissions has pretty much paralysed the car manufacturers and achieved nothing because we still have pre EU6 d powertrains on the roads with no penalties of note.
The government has also failed to implement an electrification strategy.. Tesla has worked harder, which is embarrassing!


Businesses make money, you reduce their profit opportunities and they will look elsewhere. But guess what, this filters to the local economy .. so all your little businesses, yes the ones who think they have freed the country and given us sovereign rule... well your buggered as well, because disposable incomes will vacate the area.

Oh and the argument we are being under cut by foreign workers taking lower pay... guess what they have honest value system, the slackers donâ€™t! Sort yourselves out, and go back to school, if you want to be paid more.
		
Click to expand...

You do know how far behind the other car manufacturers JLR are, and the criticisms they received because of their woeful lack of investment compared to their competitors.

As for your comment on diesel emissions and the govt I assume youâ€™re also aware that the lack of clarity from the EU on diesels has impacted on their development throughout the EU for over 2 years, with pretty much every manufacturer holding back on investment.

And I assume you are aware that car sales throughout the EU are down by almost 30% in 2018.

Surely your not blaming Brexit for all of the above.

As For electrification, have look at the implementation throughout the EU. Youâ€™ll find the U.K. is fairly close to the top of the league table, not the bottom.

But no need to let facts get in the way of your usual rubbish.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 18, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Im guessing neither you or your family are in the construction industry? ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

My father was, and he said donâ€™t do it, so I did not


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## harpo_72 (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You do know how far behind the other car manufacturers JLR are, and the criticisms they received because of their woeful lack of investment compared to their competitors.

As for your comment on diesel emissions and the govt I assume youâ€™re also aware that the lack of clarity from the EU on diesels has impacted on their development throughout the EU for over 2 years, with pretty much every manufacturer holding back on investment.

And I assume you are aware that car sales throughout the EU are down by almost 30% in 2018.

Surely your not blaming Brexit for all of the above.

As For electrification, have look at the implementation throughout the EU. Youâ€™ll find the U.K. is fairly close to the top of the league table, not the bottom.

But no need to let facts get in the way of your usual rubbish.
		
Click to expand...

As per usual, an insult a use of an emoji ... followed by usual cobblers and self inflated egotistical statements. At no point did I mention Brexit, I have not used it as a reason. 

Technology? Go on give us the low down on technology... because you are the oracle on all ... or just some over opinionated muppet who loves the sound of his own voice as he reads his own posts... ðŸ¤£


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			As per usual, an insult a use of an emoji ... followed by usual cobblers and self inflated egotistical statements. At no point did I mention Brexit, I have not used it as a reason.

Technology? Go on give us the low down on technology... because you are the oracle on all ... or just some over opinionated muppet who loves the sound of his own voice as he reads his own posts... ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

Google EU diesel policy. You find plenty of articles from the likes of the FT, The Guardian, Bloomberg, etc. Maybe then you'll be educated. Or you can carry on blowing hot air...


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## harpo_72 (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Google EU diesel policy. You find plenty of articles from the likes of the FT, The Guardian, Bloomberg, etc. Maybe then you'll be educated. Or you can carry on blowing hot air...

Click to expand...

Second bite of the cherry and you still missed the point ... ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ ðŸ©


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## Hobbit (Jan 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Second bite of the cherry and you still missed the point ... ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ ðŸ©
		
Click to expand...

It would appear we both have. Most of my post refuted your rubbish about the govt's Diesel policy and its electrification policy. Looks like your good at just seeing what you want to see.


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## drdel (Jan 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Second bite of the cherry and you still missed the point ... ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ ðŸ©
		
Click to expand...

As an ex-owner of about 15 Range Rovers you might want to consider that most of their LR vehicles have seen major price hikes, very high depreciation rates, performed badly in reliability surveys, their Chinese sales have dropped like stone.  Check out some to the JLR owner forums and you might understand that their customer service leaves room for significant improvement. Goes some way to explain that owners are voting with their feet.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you know what else happened two years ago that caused a 20% devaluation of her spending pound.
If so please enlighten us.
		
Click to expand...

That doesn't seem to have created mass unemployment, raging inflation or huge price increases.


----------



## Foxholer (Jan 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			A friend on Facebook shared the following post from a group called "Vote Leave, East Anglia".........

"All MP'S from all parties should tell the people the truth about the Lisbon Treaty and what will happen if we don't Leave the EU. ..Google it for yourselves. ... !

Read and BELIEVE! If you Have any doubts about leaving the Corrupt EU and its corrupt unelected Beurocrats of Brussels this will make you change your mind to #LEAVEMEANSLEAVE

What will actually happen if we stay in the EU and has already been agreed. Check it out if you wish:

1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or vetoâ€™s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or vetoâ€™s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen the move is fully cancelled but if not and the UK remains a member itâ€™s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealth
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.; Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UKâ€™s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future what the youths of today think we stole from them?
They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons"

Blimey! I haven't fact checked any of the points raised, I have simply copied and pasted it, but if only all the Remain voters had known this information before the referendum. It would have been a landslide for Leave.
		
Click to expand...

(Generally) Absolute twaddle!

Though there are a couple of points where there might be a tiny inkling of truth (though definitely Project fear!) or it's already 'how it is'.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jan 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			(Generally) Absolute twaddle!

Though there are a couple of points where there might be a tiny inkling of truth (though definitely Project fear!) or it's already 'how it is'.
		
Click to expand...

Aren't points 7, 8 and 9 actually true......

7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas. 

We currently don't make our own trade deals, we don't set our own trade tariffs and we don't set our own trade quotas. As a member of the EU they negotiate these on our behalf - I'm assuming with some kind of input from each member state. So technically all three of those points are true and if we stay in the EU we still won't do any of those things.

As for the rest I'm not sure "twaddle" is a strong enough term for what it all is. I'm sure there would have been something in the papers or on the news if the London stock exchange was moving to Frankfurt in 2020 or if we had to adopt the Euro and enter the Schengen zone by 2022. Unless it's all just one big conspiracy and they're keeping it from us. I'm putting my tinfoil hat back on to stop them reading my mind and knowing that I know what they are doing.


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## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Aren't points 7, 8 and 9 actually true......

7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas. 

We currently don't make our own trade deals, we don't set our own trade tariffs and we don't set our own trade quotas. As a member of the EU they negotiate these on our behalf - I'm assuming with some kind of input from each member state. So technically all three of those points are true and if we stay in the EU we still won't do any of those things.

As for the rest I'm not sure "twaddle" is a strong enough term for what it all is. I'm sure there would have been something in the papers or on the news if the London stock exchange was moving to Frankfurt in 2020 or if we had to adopt the Euro and enter the Schengen zone by 2022. Unless it's all just one big conspiracy and they're keeping it from us. I'm putting my tinfoil hat back on to stop them reading my mind and knowing that I know what they are doing. 

Click to expand...

The sharing of crap like that on Facebook should be punishable by being locked in a giant room with all the other morons and subjected to every episode of Friends on repeat until you die.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 18, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			The sharing of crap like that on Facebook should be punishable by being locked in a giant room with all the other morons and subjected to every episode of Friends on repeat until you die.
		
Click to expand...

What about the sharing of stuff like that on a golf forum? What should that be punishable by?

Before you pass sentence Your Honour, I would like to express my deep regret at posting such rubbish and beg the court for forgiveness for my foolishness.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			As an ex-owner of about 15 Range Rovers you might want to consider that most of their LR vehicles have seen major price hikes, very high depreciation rates, performed badly in reliability surveys, their Chinese sales have dropped like stone.  Check out some to the JLR owner forums and you might understand that their customer service leaves room for significant improvement. Goes some way to explain that owners are voting with their feet.
		
Click to expand...

This is not about JLR quality, and yes I am aware of the forums I run an F Pace ... and god itâ€™s good. 
Chinese sales are down across all brands, all price ranges. 
You all missed the point... the tax system is not clearing out the old cars, in fact itâ€™s benefits their owners.
Perhaps I should have separated the two statements. 

JLRâ€™s European build sites are business decisions made long before Brexit, you cannot just unfold a factory .. However a no deal will impact their UK sites, to claim it wonâ€™t is silly.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It would appear we both have. Most of my post refuted your rubbish about the govt's Diesel policy and its electrification policy. Looks like your good at just seeing what you want to see.

Click to expand...

Your post was knee jerk reaction without understanding.. your showing your level ... again.ðŸ¤¡


----------



## bluewolf (Jan 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Hollandâ€™s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of Â£80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with Â£20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

Just a quick trawl, no doubt some of it might be open to some questioning.
		
Click to expand...

Hey Brian, sorry I didn't get back to this. I've been doing a (tiny) bit of digging around this. Can you provide actual proof that EU Grants (not loans) were used to fund these moves?


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## SatchFan (Jan 19, 2019)

Exclusive image of the UK leaving Europe.


----------



## User62651 (Jan 19, 2019)

News this AM carrying reports that young people ineligble to vote in EU ref of 2016 but eligible now to vote, of which there are more than 2 million, on consistent polling would vote to remain over leave by ratio of 7 to 1. Conversely expecting older remainers to move to leave is not expected, generational in that everyone younger than say 58 (taking into account childhood) has known nothing but being in Europe politically so don't yearn for days of yore with rose tinted specs on.

Some may say this is not relevant to what happended in 2016 but if that trend is correct then it's only going to be a matter of time before there is another referendum to rejoin the EU in whatever form that takes in future, is it not?  
If Cameron could put it in his 2015 election manifesto then why can't any other party have a EU ref in/out pledge in theirs in the not so distant future too? 

We know political parties are shallow enough to include anything they think will win votes so EU issue must keep coming up.
Fair chance the Conservative Party will have split on Europe by then too.

As soon as we leave, the rejoin movement will just grow legs and eventually will prevail, has to, hasn't it?

Brexit has actually strengthened and unified EU 27 if anything, not the opposite as leavers hoped.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			News this AM carrying reports that young people ineligble to vote in EU ref of 2016 but eligible now to vote, of which there are more than 2 million, on consistent polling would vote to remain over leave by ratio of 7 to 1. Conversely expecting older remainers to move to leave is not expected, generational in that everyone younger than say 58 (taking into account childhood) has known nothing but being in Europe politically so don't yearn for days of yore with rose tinted specs on.

Some may say this is not relevant to what happended in 2016 but if that trend is correct then it's only going to be a matter of time before there is another referendum to rejoin the EU in whatever form that takes in future, is it not? 
If Cameron could put it in his 2015 election manifesto then why can't any other party have a EU ref in/out pledge in theirs in the not so distant future too?

We know political parties are shallow enough to include anything they think will win votes so EU issue must keep coming up.
Fair chance the Conservative Party will have split on Europe by then too.

As soon as we leave, the rejoin movement will just grow legs and eventually will prevail, has to, hasn't it?

Brexit has actually strengthened and unified EU 27 if anything, not the opposite as leavers hoped.
		
Click to expand...

If my aunty had a willy she would be my uncle.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			News this AM carrying reports that young people ineligble to vote in EU ref of 2016 but eligible now to vote, of which there are more than 2 million, on consistent polling would vote to remain over leave by ratio of 7 to 1. Conversely expecting older remainers to move to leave is not expected, generational in that everyone younger than say 58 (taking into account childhood) has known nothing but being in Europe politically so don't yearn for days of yore with rose tinted specs on.

Some may say this is not relevant to what happended in 2016 but if that trend is correct then it's only going to be a matter of time before there is another referendum to rejoin the EU in whatever form that takes in future, is it not?
If Cameron could put it in his 2015 election manifesto then why can't any other party have a EU ref in/out pledge in theirs in the not so distant future too?

We know political parties are shallow enough to include anything they think will win votes so EU issue must keep coming up.
Fair chance the Conservative Party will have split on Europe by then too.

As soon as we leave, the rejoin movement will just grow legs and eventually will prevail, has to, hasn't it?

Brexit has actually strengthened and unified EU 27 if anything, not the opposite as leavers hoped.
		
Click to expand...


No I think once the UK leaves and thrives the EU will start to come undone, more infighting mostly about finances will lead to discontent and a rise in Nationalism, Italy will probably be first, then the Greeks. One by one more countries will leave and eventually it will cease to exist..... Who knows maybe a Phoenix will arise from itâ€™s ashes, just a few like minded countries who want a loose affiliation to trade together, they might call themselves the EEC!


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## Foxholer (Jan 19, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Aren't points 7, 8 and 9 actually true......

7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.

We currently don't make our own trade deals, we don't set our own trade tariffs and we don't set our own trade quotas. As a member of the EU they negotiate these on our behalf - I'm assuming with some kind of input from each member state. So technically all three of those points are true and if we stay in the EU we still won't do any of those things.

As for the rest I'm not sure "twaddle" is a strong enough term for what it all is. I'm sure there would have been something in the papers or on the news if the London stock exchange was moving to Frankfurt in 2020 or if we had to adopt the Euro and enter the Schengen zone by 2022. Unless it's all just one big conspiracy and they're keeping it from us. I'm putting my tinfoil hat back on to stop them reading my mind and knowing that I know what they are doing. 

Click to expand...

Yep! They are/That's certainly one of the 'how it is' states as per my post for EU members on deals negotiated by the EU. 
Of course, that also means 'there's no need to negotiate trade deals, because we've done it for you', but why present both sides of the coin!
And 8 and 9 are actually (pretty much) redundant as 'trade deals' (only) consist of 'tariffs' and 'quotas'! The only possible 'benefit' of a UK-specific 'deal' would be if the overall quota negotiated by the EU wasn't sufficient for UK 'needs', but that's not particularly likely imo.

As others have stated...Project Fear! I detest the instigators of such twaddle - on both sides of the argument!


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## drdel (Jan 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			News this AM carrying reports that young people ineligble to vote in EU ref of 2016 but eligible now to vote, of which there are more than 2 million, on consistent polling would vote to remain over leave by ratio of 7 to 1. Conversely expecting older remainers to move to leave is not expected, generational in that everyone younger than say 58 (taking into account childhood) has known nothing but being in Europe politically so don't yearn for days of yore with rose tinted specs on.

Some may say this is not relevant to what happended in 2016 but if that trend is correct then it's only going to be a matter of time before there is another referendum to rejoin the EU in whatever form that takes in future, is it not? 
If Cameron could put it in his 2015 election manifesto then why can't any other party have a EU ref in/out pledge in theirs in the not so distant future too?

We know political parties are shallow enough to include anything they think will win votes so EU issue must keep coming up.
Fair chance the Conservative Party will have split on Europe by then too.

As soon as we leave, the rejoin movement will just grow legs and eventually will prevail, has to, hasn't it?

Brexit has actually strengthened and unified EU 27 if anything, not the opposite as leavers hoped.
		
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It may have unified Brussels but if you look at the members voicing discontent I'd hardly call them unified in any way.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yep! They are/That's certainly one of the 'how it is' states as per my post for EU members on deals negotiated by the EU.
Of course, that also means 'there's no need to negotiate trade deals, because we've done it for you', but why present both sides of the coin!
And 8 and 9 are actually (pretty much) redundant as 'trade deals' (only) consist of 'tariffs' and 'quotas'! The only possible 'benefit' of a UK-specific 'deal' would be if the overall quota negotiated by the EU wasn't sufficient for UK 'needs', but that's not particularly likely imo.

As others have stated...Project Fear!* I detest the instigators of such twaddle - on both sides of the argument*!
		
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Some may argue people who distribute and believe such twaddle on both sides are a bigger threat to democracy than a second vote. I read a very good article in Wired the other day talking about bot based propaganda being a massive threat to democracy as over 50% of us get our news from social media nowadays. And the stuff then went on in the Trump election and potentially Brexit is very primitive compared to what could be done once your premier news source could be at best an echo chamber, and at worst completely made up.


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## Foxholer (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			No I think once the UK leaves and thrives the EU will start to come undone, more infighting mostly about finances will lead to discontent and a rise in Nationalism, Italy will probably be first, then the Greeks. One by one more countries will leave and eventually it will cease to exist..... Who knows maybe a Phoenix will arise from itâ€™s ashes, just a few like minded countries who want a loose affiliation to trade together, they might call themselves the EEC! 

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I actually doubt this will happen.

I'm pretty sure there WILL be a certain amount of disruption within EU - mainly financial, but it won't break the EU up. It might make the EU stronger - to the detriment of the UK, at least in the Financial Area.

To me, the trigger for all of this was the significant increase in EU size a few years ago. The deferment of 'benefits' of, particularly, Freedom of Movement of People merely deferred the 'crisis' for the UK - already made sceptical of several aspects of EU membership by (perhaps misguided or perhaps truly patriotic) folk with influence. UK IS pretty 'crowded' in areas that contribute most to its economy and providing the appropriate level of services to its population, at an 'affordable' cost, is a considerable problem. So the seemingly 'uncontrollable' (I'm almost certain that's not actually the case) influx of significant numbers of immigrants from the recently joined member states has put additional burdens on those services, and provided more ammo for those that seek to have UK 'independent'. The Press has also had a considerable part to play, both with its overall anti-EU stance and, imo, the lack of appropriate quality/standards/regulation.


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## bluewolf (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Hey Brian, sorry I didn't get back to this. I've been doing a (tiny) bit of digging around this. Can you provide actual proof that EU Grants (not loans) were used to fund these moves?
		
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Sorry to drag this up again but I'm genuinely interested in the answer. 

I have an overwhelming sense that most of it isn't true (happy to be proven wrong). And the logic doesn't work anyway. 

The consensus seems to be that the EU I'd actively seeking to move manufacturing from the U.K. But this doesn't make sense when some on here are adamant that our EU payments are going to increase. If the EU need us as much as some say then they sure as sh*t can't justify hurting our economy. 

Also, I'm constantly reading on here about the EU Federal Superstate. About how the only way to avoid it is to leave. But that assertion assumes that France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc are all happy to give up their national identity, and that we won't because ours is what? Too strong? Too good? Do we genuinely think we're better than everyone else?

We seem to have Schroedinger's Brexit happening. The EU want to destroy our employment base whilst upping our contributions. They want to subsume our national identity whilst everyone else is happy to give theirs up. They want to come here and take all our jobs whilst also taking all our benefits. It's bizarre.


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## Hobbit (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry to drag this up again but I'm genuinely interested in the answer.

I have an overwhelming sense that most of it isn't true (happy to be proven wrong). And the logic doesn't work anyway.

The consensus seems to be that the EU I'd actively seeking to move manufacturing from the U.K. But this doesn't make sense when some on here are adamant that our EU payments are going to increase. If the EU need us as much as some say then they sure as sh*t can't justify hurting our economy.

Also, I'm constantly reading on here about the EU Federal Superstate. About how the only way to avoid it is to leave. But that assertion assumes that France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc are all happy to give up their national identity, and that we won't because ours is what? Too strong? Too good? Do we genuinely think we're better than everyone else?

We seem to have Schroedinger's Brexit happening. The EU want to destroy our employment base whilst upping our contributions. They want to subsume our national identity whilst everyone else is happy to give theirs up. They want to come here and take all our jobs whilst also taking all our benefits. It's bizarre.
		
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Just in from golf - T-shirt weather here. I'm sceptical about some of it, and will look at it later. However, as I said earlier in the thread, the company I used to work for did close production lines in the UK and Germany and move it to the Czech Republic.


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## bluewolf (Jan 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just in from golf - T-shirt weather here. I'm sceptical about some of it, and will look at it later. However, as I said earlier in the thread, the company I used to work for did close production lines in the UK and Germany and move it to the Czech Republic.
		
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I have no doubt that production has moved, but it's being presented as the EU purposefully offering financial incentives for factories in the U.K. To close and move production to Eastern and Southern Europe. I just don't think it's true.


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## Hobbit (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I have no doubt that production has moved, but it's being presented as the EU purposefully offering financial incentives for factories in the U.K. To close and move production to Eastern and Southern Europe. I just don't think it's true.
		
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I don't think the EU has been purposefully providing incentives to move production out of the UK. If that were the case why has the company I worked for moved production out of Germany, as well as the UK, to the Czech Republic? Honestly, I think companies have been taking advantage of grants/tax breaks offered by the 'local' govts, funded by the EU. The companies have to maximise their dividends, or be answerable to shareholders. They show no loyalty to a country anyway, only to the ROI.

However, I do feel that its a flawed model for the EU. As you alluded to, it leads to loss of tax returns in one country, which impacts the money the EU can get out of that country, and sees lower tax returns in a country the business has been moved to. If was to attract extra business from outside the EU into the poorer countries, great, but it doesn't seem to achieve much of that.

As for the federal superstate; have a read of Juncker's 'state of the nation' address. You could also look at what Macron has said, and supported by Merkel. The proposal for an EU army. The proposal for an EU chancellor.

The changing of what is needed to pass laws from a qualified majority to a simple majority. TBH, with 28 member states it probably needs to change or nothing would go through. But, conversely, simple majorities are, as we currently know, cause no end of problems.


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## bluewolf (Jan 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think the EU has been purposefully providing incentives to move production out of the UK. If that were the case why has the company I worked for moved production out of Germany, as well as the UK, to the Czech Republic? Honestly, I think companies have been taking advantage of grants/tax breaks offered by the 'local' govts, funded by the EU. The companies have to maximise their dividends, or be answerable to shareholders. They show no loyalty to a country anyway, only to the ROI.

However, I do feel that its a flawed model for the EU. As you alluded to, it leads to loss of tax returns in one country, which impacts the money the EU can get out of that country, and sees lower tax returns in a country the business has been moved to. If was to attract extra business from outside the EU into the poorer countries, great, but it doesn't seem to achieve much of that.

As for the federal superstate; have a read of Juncker's 'state of the nation' address. You could also look at what Macron has said, and supported by Merkel. The proposal for an EU army. The proposal for an EU chancellor.

The changing of what is needed to pass laws from a qualified majority to a simple majority. TBH, with 28 member states it probably needs to change or nothing would go through. But, conversely, simple majorities are, as we currently know, cause no end of problems.
		
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I agree with pretty much all of the first part of your post. The second part has one major flaw. The people don't want it. And as we're seeing now, if the people don't want it then it ain't happening. This is the truly ironic side of Brexit. The very people who are most afraid of the EU Suprrstate are the very ones who could stop it just by doing what they are currently doing. They just aren't giving themselves enough credit (strange as that may sound).


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 19, 2019)

Just had a email form a German mate who lives in Berlin, he says

_'We had a store near by 'Broken English' and they announced they are going to close it as due to Brexit it won't be worth it, too much hassle. So, no more marmalade, biscuits, Boddington's, Cadbury's...'_

Who says there will be no victims of Brexit......


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## Dando (Jan 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			News this AM carrying reports that young people ineligble to vote in EU ref of 2016 but eligible now to vote, of which there are more than 2 million, on consistent polling would vote to remain over leave by ratio of 7 to 1. Conversely expecting older remainers to move to leave is not expected, generational in that everyone younger than say 58 (taking into account childhood) has known nothing but being in Europe politically so don't yearn for days of yore with rose tinted specs on.

Some may say this is not relevant to what happended in 2016 but if that trend is correct then it's only going to be a matter of time before there is another referendum to rejoin the EU in whatever form that takes in future, is it not? 
If Cameron could put it in his 2015 election manifesto then why can't any other party have a EU ref in/out pledge in theirs in the not so distant future too?

We know political parties are shallow enough to include anything they think will win votes so EU issue must keep coming up.
Fair chance the Conservative Party will have split on Europe by then too.

As soon as we leave, the rejoin movement will just grow legs and eventually will prevail, has to, hasn't it?

Brexit has actually strengthened and unified EU 27 if anything, not the opposite as leavers hoped.
		
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So what, more people are eligible to vote. 
The same can be said after every vote but I guess that wonâ€™t help your cause!


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## Hobbit (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I agree with pretty much all of the first part of your post. The second part has one major flaw. The people don't want it. And as we're seeing now, if the people don't want it then it ain't happening. This is the truly ironic side of Brexit. The very people who are most afraid of the EU Suprrstate are the very ones who could stop it just by doing what they are currently doing. They just aren't giving themselves enough credit (strange as that may sound).
		
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For want of a better way of putting it, aren't you being a little naive? The EU's own satisfaction survey, published in the last few weeks shows that there's very few countries with more than a 50% satisfaction with the EU. Several countries have govts or significant standings of hard right politicians who have campaigned and won on an anti-EU mandate. Italy is still at loggerheads with the EU over its budget, even though it passes the EU's GDP % criteria, and the EU have recently threatened them with fines over it. 

Juncker's appointment of his number 2 is suspect to say the least. 

And with a backdrop of all that Juncker proposes, and gains support from France and Germany, for an EU army and an EU chancellor. The EU's use of the current Security and Defence policy is open to question and isn't popular yet he still proposed the EU army. Don't forget that Germany and France hold a huge block of votes in the EU parliament.

The people of several countries voted no for Maastricht and the Lisbon Treaty yet the EU pushed them through with virtually no change to those treaties.


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## User62651 (Jan 19, 2019)

Dando said:



			So what, more people are eligible to vote.
The same can be said after every vote but I guess that wonâ€™t help your cause!
		
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Not more people, same amount of people, think you missed the point entirely and I dont have a cause, sorry.


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## User62651 (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If my aunty had a willy she would be my uncle.
		
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 Quality posting again there SR, the effort must be exhausting.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			News this AM carrying reports that young people ineligble to vote in EU ref of 2016 but eligible now to vote, of which there are more than 2 million, on consistent polling would vote to remain over leave by ratio of 7 to 1. Conversely expecting older remainers to move to leave is not expected, generational in that everyone younger than say 58 (taking into account childhood) has known nothing but being in Europe politically so don't yearn for days of yore with rose tinted specs on.

Some may say this is not relevant to what happended in 2016 but if that trend is correct then it's only going to be a matter of time before there is another referendum to rejoin the EU in whatever form that takes in future, is it not?
If Cameron could put it in his 2015 election manifesto then why can't any other party have a EU ref in/out pledge in theirs in the not so distant future too?

We know political parties are shallow enough to include anything they think will win votes so EU issue must keep coming up.
Fair chance the Conservative Party will have split on Europe by then too.

As soon as we leave, the rejoin movement will just grow legs and eventually will prevail, has to, hasn't it?

Brexit has actually strengthened and unified EU 27 if anything, not the opposite as leavers hoped.
		
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The logic is questionable.  Just as more young
people become old enough to vote more middle aged people become old. I would disagree that its older people looking back with rose tinted glasses on a glorious time before we were members of the EU, I lived through those days and they were austere days where most of us were hard up related to people today, life was hard and pretty unforgiving.  IMO the way older people tended to vote the way they did was due to a lifetime of experience and the wisdom that gives them.  Many of them voted remain just as many young people voted leave, I am often surprised when seeing young people on Question Time promoting Brexit , also during debates and street interviews by tv presenters.  I tend to be sceptic on reports saying how young and old people voted, I think it was more of a mixed bag.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Quality posting again there SR, the effort must be exhausting.

Click to expand...

The point being that its opinionated and subjective, not fact.  You of course will go for it though as it supports your preferences although it changes nothing, the vote was at a moment in time, should we rerun general elections every two years because some old people had died.


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## Hobbit (Jan 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			News this AM carrying reports that young people ineligble to vote in EU ref of 2016 but eligible now to vote, of which there are more than 2 million, on consistent polling would vote to remain over leave by ratio of 7 to 1. Conversely expecting older remainers to move to leave is not expected, generational in that everyone younger than say 58 (taking into account childhood) has known nothing but being in Europe politically so don't yearn for days of yore with rose tinted specs on.

Some may say this is not relevant to what happended in 2016 but if that trend is correct then it's only going to be a matter of time before there is another referendum to rejoin the EU in whatever form that takes in future, is it not? 
If Cameron could put it in his 2015 election manifesto then why can't any other party have a EU ref in/out pledge in theirs in the not so distant future too?

We know political parties are shallow enough to include anything they think will win votes so EU issue must keep coming up.
Fair chance the Conservative Party will have split on Europe by then too.

As soon as we leave, the rejoin movement will just grow legs and eventually will prevail, has to, hasn't it?

Brexit has actually strengthened and unified EU 27 if anything, not the opposite as leavers hoped.
		
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There is part of one sentence in there that I think people shouldn't lose sight of. "...if that trend is correct..." It may be educated speculation but its still only speculation.

The number and percentages have been done to death in the last 2.5 years, along with those at GE's. There's a trend there that is worth noting too. When its close, it can't be predicted with any certainty.


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## bluewolf (Jan 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			For want of a better way of putting it, aren't you being a little naive? The EU's own satisfaction survey, published in the last few weeks shows that there's very few countries with more than a 50% satisfaction with the EU. Several countries have govts or significant standings of hard right politicians who have campaigned and won on an anti-EU mandate. Italy is still at loggerheads with the EU over its budget, even though it passes the EU's GDP % criteria, and the EU have recently threatened them with fines over it. 

Juncker's appointment of his number 2 is suspect to say the least. 

And with a backdrop of all that Juncker proposes, and gains support from France and Germany, for an EU army and an EU chancellor. The EU's use of the current Security and Defence policy is open to question and isn't popular yet he still proposed the EU army. Don't forget that Germany and France hold a huge block of votes in the EU parliament.

The people of several countries voted no for Maastricht and the Lisbon Treaty yet the EU pushed them through with virtually no change to those treaties.
		
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So, we're in the middle of the biggest political crudstorm in decades, all because the people were unhappy with the political classes, and you're claiming that people being unhappy doesn't result in political crudstorms?


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## User62651 (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The point being that its opinionated and subjective, not fact.  You of course will go for it though as it supports your preferences although it changes nothing, the vote was at a moment in time, should we rerun general elections every two years because some old people had died.
		
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It was carried on the tv news this morning, the polling is factual.


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## Dando (Jan 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There is part of one sentence in there that I think people shouldn't lose sight of. "...if that trend is correct..." It may be educated speculation but its still only speculation.

The number and percentages have been done to death in the last 2.5 years, along with those at GE's. There's a trend there that is worth noting too. When its close, it can't be predicted with any certainty.
		
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Iâ€™m sure it wouldâ€™ve been dismissed if it had shown those new voters favouring leave


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			It was carried on the tv news this morning, the polling is factual.
		
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It must be factual if it was on the news.  I saw the guy who was promoting this on Sky News this morning and he said it was a theory and not fact.  Funny though, my ballot paper didnt ask me how old I was.


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## Hobbit (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			So, we're in the middle of the biggest political crudstorm in decades, all because the people were unhappy with the political classes, and you're claiming that people being unhappy doesn't result in political crudstorms?
		
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Sorry but you've totally lost me. Maybe I didn't understand where you were coming from in post 4268, but I definitely don't understand the above.

First of all, whats a political crud storm? If, using the UK's parliament as an example, its in a mess for a number of reasons. A minority govt. The party in power having too many chiefs. The opposition party not articulating exactly where it stands on a significant number of issues.

If you're referring to Brussels, it seems slow to wake up on a number of issues but political crud storm?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			News this AM carrying reports that young people ineligble to vote in EU ref of 2016 but eligible now to vote, of which there are more than 2 million, on consistent polling would vote to remain over leave by ratio of 7 to 1. Conversely expecting older remainers to move to leave is not expected, generational in that everyone younger than say 58 (taking into account childhood) has known nothing but being in Europe politically so don't yearn for days of yore with rose tinted specs on.

Some may say this is not relevant to what happended in 2016 but if that trend is correct then it's only going to be a matter of time before there is another referendum to rejoin the EU in whatever form that takes in future, is it not? 
If Cameron could put it in his 2015 election manifesto then why can't any other party have a EU ref in/out pledge in theirs in the not so distant future too?

We know political parties are shallow enough to include anything they think will win votes so EU issue must keep coming up.
Fair chance the Conservative Party will have split on Europe by then too.

As soon as we leave, the rejoin movement will just grow legs and eventually will prevail, has to, hasn't it?

Brexit has actually strengthened and unified EU 27 if anything, not the opposite as leavers hoped.
		
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Also i wouldnâ€™t get your hopes up too much if you are relying on the young vote to save your cause, they are notorious layabouts. ðŸ›Œ


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## Foxholer (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			So, we're in the middle of the biggest political crudstorm in decades, all because the people were unhappy with the political classes, and you're claiming that people being unhappy doesn't result in political crudstorms?
		
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Two separate crudstorms imo. Though 'associated' (not truly 'connected' imo) by the causes of the unhappiness happening together and involving 'the political classes'.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			So, we're in the middle of the biggest political crudstorm in decades, all because the people were unhappy with the political classes, and you're claiming that people being unhappy doesn't result in political crudstorms?
		
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Were in the crudstorm because many people on the losing side of the vote refuse to accept they lost and most of our politicians are playing mind games rather than making Brexit a success.


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## User62651 (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Also i wouldnâ€™t get your hopes up too much if you are relying on the young vote to save your cause, they are notorious layabouts. ðŸ›Œ
		
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Charming view of our young people. We were all young once, confident I was neither a layabout or notorious at the time, were you?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Were in the crudstorm because many people on the losing side of the vote refuse to accept they lost and most of our politicians are playing mind games rather than making Brexit a success.
		
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How exactly can people who voted to stay be blamed what the actions of the government and their Brexit plans - everything that is happening right now is a consequence of voting to leave - what exactly is it you are blaming people who voted to stay for ?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Charming view of our young people. We were all young once, confident I was neither a layabout or notorious at the time, were you?
		
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Absolutely not but only 36 per cent of people in the 18 â€“ 24 year old category voted in the EU referendum. Easily the lowest turnout of any age group.


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## bluewolf (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Were in the crudstorm because many people on the losing side of the vote refuse to accept they lost and most of our politicians are playing mind games rather than making Brexit a success.
		
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No, were in a crudstorm because no one knew how to leave before voting for it. Article 50 should never have been sent before there was a consensus on what was wanted. We're a laughing stock because we've voted for something without ever actually getting agreement on what it actually was.


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Were in the crudstorm because many people on the losing side of the vote refuse to accept they lost and most of our politicians are playing mind games rather than making Brexit a success.
		
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Weâ€™re in this position because Cameron was weak & called a referendum straight away, rather than allowing the civil servants time to actually learn the rules of what it all means. He could have waited.

Then both sides lied and cheated in the build up to the referendum. But leave did it better. The remain campaign was pathetic!
Following that Cameron chickened out & quit. May became pm, despite historically being a racist, intolerant bigot as Home Secretary.
She turned out, unsurprisingly, to be useless & parliament joined her in being incompetent.
She chose 3 brexit secretaries who, unbelievably, turned out to be even more useless than her.

So to blame are:Cameron, May, Davis et al and the opposition!


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No, were in a crudstorm because no one knew how to leave before voting for it. Article 50 should never have been sent before there was a consensus on what was wanted. We're a laughing stock because we've voted for something without ever actually getting agreement on what it actually was.
		
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Sorry but we knew what we were voting for; either to Remain in, or Leave, the EU; the referendum didn't ask us about how we leave.  Once the referendum result was in any further screw ups such as triggering Article 50 without a coherent plan in place and the farce that was the negotiations are squarely on the politicians.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Weâ€™re in this position because Cameron was weak & called a referendum straight away, rather than allowing the civil servants time to actually learn the rules of what it all means. He could have waited.

Then both sides lied and cheated in the build up to the referendum. But leave did it better. The remain campaign was pathetic!
Following that Cameron chickened out & quit. May became pm, despite historically being a racist, intolerant bigot as Home Secretary.
She turned out, unsurprisingly, to be useless & parliament joined her in being incompetent.
*She chose 3 brexit secretaries who, unbelievably, turned out to be even more useless than her.*

So to blame are:Cameron, May, Davis et al and the opposition!
		
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Useless or undermined?


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

Iâ€™d say useless. 
But if undermined, by who?


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Iâ€™d say useless.
But if undermined, by who?
		
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Primarily May, a resolute Remainer.


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Primarily May, a resolute Remainer.
		
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 she seems intent on leaving to me


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sorry but we knew what we were voting for; either to Remain in, or Leave, the EU; the referendum didn't ask us about how we leave.  Once the referendum result was in any further screw ups such as triggering Article 50 without a coherent plan in place and the farce that was the negotiations are squarely on the politicians.
		
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Funny how Iâ€™ve never heard a single Leave voter complain about being misled and demanding another vote! Only whining hard done by Remainers who seem outraged on our behalf!


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Funny how Iâ€™ve never heard a single Leave voter complain about being misled and demanding another vote! Only whining hard done by Remainers who seem outraged on our behalf!
		
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Iâ€™m not outraged on your behalf, itâ€™s on my own behalf!


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2019)

JamesR said:



			she seems intent on leaving to me
		
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She's showing a face that she's intent on leaving; I have no doubt that she will be doing all she can to keep us in.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Iâ€™m not outraged on your behalf, itâ€™s on my own behalf!
		
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Why?


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Why?
		
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Because I have a good life, which I donâ€™t want spoiling.


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			...I have no doubt that she will be doing all she can to keep us in.
		
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Hereâ€™s hopingðŸ¤ž


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Because I have a good life, which I donâ€™t want spoiling.
		
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Do you really think you life will be â€œspoiledâ€? How for goodness sake? There is going to be a few changes but nothing life changing, not even if your a polish plumber!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Do you really think you life will be â€œspoiledâ€? How for goodness sake? There is going to be a few changes but nothing life changing, not even if your a polish plumber!
		
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You canâ€™t guarantee that - no one can , you donâ€™t know how peopleâ€™s lives will be affected , people could well lose their jobs ( some already have ) - donâ€™t you think thatâ€™s life changing


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## bluewolf (Jan 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sorry but we knew what we were voting for; either to Remain in, or Leave, the EU; the referendum didn't ask us about how we leave.  Once the referendum result was in any further screw ups such as triggering Article 50 without a coherent plan in place and the farce that was the negotiations are squarely on the politicians.
		
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You've just agreed with me. It's a political horlicks


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How exactly can people who voted to stay be blamed what the actions of the government and their Brexit plans - everything that is happening right now is a consequence of voting to leave - what exactly is it you are blaming people who voted to stay for ?
		
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 Because many are trying to frustrate the outcome with calls of a Peoples vote and suggesting leave voters didn't understand what they were voting for.  You know the kind of people I mean: Mandleson, Blair, Major and so many others.  Everything that is happening right now is a consequence of politicians not accepting the democratic vote and working together to get the best deal for the country.  How can you blame people that voted leave for the way the politicians are carrying on playing games with our future. 

Try reading my posts and digesting what I say before jumping on your keyboard blinded by your predujiced  mindset of anything I post.  Its a bit hacknied now.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			You've just agreed with me. It's a political horlicks
		
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I agree that it's a political horlicks, but your original post seemed, to me at least, to imply that the voters were to blame for voting to leave without knowing how it would be achieved, which I don't agree with.  Apologies if I misunderstood it.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How exactly can people who voted to stay be blamed what the actions of the government and their Brexit plans - everything that is happening right now is a consequence of voting to leave - what exactly is it you are blaming people who voted to stay for ?
		
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Ah, so the incompetence of the negotiators and the lack of a plan is all the fault of the voters who exercised their choice to Leave at the ballot box, that choice being offered by the same politicians who had no plan and negotiated incompetently.  Glad we've sorted that out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Because many are trying to frustrate the outcome with calls of a Peoples vote and suggesting leave voters didn't understand what they were voting for.  You know the kind of people I mean: Mandleson, Blair, Major and so many others.  Everything that is happening right now is a consequence of politicians not accepting the democratic vote and working together to get the best deal for the country.  How can you blame people that voted leave for the way the politicians are carrying on playing games with our future.

Try reading my posts and digesting what I say before jumping on your keyboard blinded by your predujiced  mindset of anything I post.  Its a bit hacknied now.
		
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I can blame the people who voted leave because thatâ€™s why we are in this mess but the blame game is a long and tired road now - we are in this mess because of governments past and present 

Leaving was always going to a very complicated process - no vote should have taken until that process was explored and we knew â€œhow to leaveâ€


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Ah, so the incompetence of the negotiators and the lack of a plan is all the fault of the voters who exercised their choice to Leave at the ballot box, that choice being offered by the same politicians who had no plan and negotiated incompetently.  Glad we've sorted that out.  

Click to expand...

I donâ€™t think I mentioned fault in my post and certainly not aimed at people who voted 

The country voted to leave with no clear plan ahead - and thatâ€™s why we are in a mess right now


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Do you really think you life will be â€œspoiledâ€? How for goodness sake? There is going to be a few changes but nothing life changing, not even if your a polish plumber!
		
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I voted for the status quo. 
Anything that changes for the worse will make me royally pissed off!


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*I can blame the people who voted leave because thatâ€™s why we are in this mess* but the blame game is a long and tired road now - we are in this mess because of governments past and present

Leaving was always going to a very complicated process - no vote should have taken until that process was explored and we knew â€œhow to leaveâ€
		
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What is it that you don't understand about the fact that it is not the voters fault, it's the politicians fault?  They offered the referendum and they've screwed up the process; how the hell is it the voters fault?


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*I can blame the people who voted leave because thatâ€™s why we are in this mess* but the blame game is a long and tired road now - we are in this mess because of governments past and present

Leaving was always going to a very complicated process - no vote should have taken until that process was explored and we knew â€œhow to leaveâ€
		
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This is you not mentioning fault?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*I can blame the people who voted leave* because thatâ€™s why we are in this mess but the blame game is a long and tired road now - we are in this mess because of governments past and present

Leaving was always going to a very complicated process - no vote should have taken until that process was explored and we knew â€œhow to leaveâ€
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



*I donâ€™t think I mentioned fault in my post* and certainly not aimed at people who voted

The country voted to leave with no clear plan ahead - and thatâ€™s why we are in a mess right now
		
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You seem conflicted. ðŸ¤”


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## bluewolf (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Funny how Iâ€™ve never heard a single Leave voter complain about being misled and demanding another vote! Only whining hard done by Remainers who seem outraged on our behalf!
		
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I know 3 Leave voters who are now resolute remainers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2019)

Ok Iâ€™ll put it simple - we are in a mess because the country voted to leave - simple as that , the government are making a compete hash of it but we have got to this stage because the vote was to leave


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

_c_


Liverpoolphil said:



			You canâ€™t guarantee that - no one can , you donâ€™t know how peopleâ€™s lives will be affected , people could well lose their jobs ( some already have ) - donâ€™t you think thatâ€™s life changing
		
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Can you guarantee  how lives will be affected whatever we do, people are always losing their jobs just like new jobs are being created.  Millions of new jobs have been created  over recent years.  You need to get some perspective.


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Because many are trying to frustrate the outcome with calls of a Peoples vote and suggesting leave voters didn't understand what they were voting for.  You know the kind of people I mean: Mandleson, Blair, Major and so many others.  Everything that is happening right now is a consequence of politicians not accepting the democratic vote and working together to get the best deal for the country.  How can you blame people that voted leave for the way the politicians are carrying on playing games with our future. 

Try reading my posts and digesting what I say before jumping on your keyboard blinded by your predujiced  mindset of anything I post.  Its a bit hacknied now.
		
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You mention Blair, Mandy & Major.
They canâ€™t actually affect anything right now though can they?
Itâ€™s all in the hands of parliament!


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			... how the hell is it the voters fault?
		
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Because they voted for it?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I know 3 Leave voters who are now resolute remainers.
		
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Well thatâ€™s me convinced then!ðŸ˜‚


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



_c_

Can you guarantee  how lives will be affected whatever we do, people are always losing their jobs just like new jobs are being created.  Millions of new jobs have been created  over recent years.  You need to get some perspective.
		
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Iâ€™m not the one giving the guarantees though - I have seen people losing their jobs because of this whole process, people with young families , I know people whose livelihood relies on a good working relationship and trade with the EU. I have all the perspective I need and certainly not from someone who i suspect doesnâ€™t need to rely on the EU and they donâ€™t really care about the affect itâ€™s going to have on people. But I guess thatâ€™s the way these days.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ok Iâ€™ll put it simple - we are in a mess because the country voted to leave - simple as that , the government are making a compete hash of it but we have got to this stage because the vote was to leave
		
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What mess?  We are doing rather well as a country.
Calm down Dear its only a change of trading relations not the Black Death ðŸ™„


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2019)

The remainers seem restless tonight?ðŸ¤”


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m not the one giving the guarantees though - I have seen people losing their jobs because of this whole process, people with young families , I know people whose livelihood relies on a good working relationship and trade with the EU. I have all the perspective I need and certainly not from someone who i suspect doesnâ€™t need to rely on the EU and they donâ€™t really care about the affect itâ€™s going to have on people. But I guess thatâ€™s the way these days.
		
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I have seen people lose their jobs all my life, I have lost a few myself but thats the way of the world, always has been.    Its not good but like the poor will always be with us. Like I said calm down and get some perspective man.


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The remainers seem restless tonight?ðŸ¤”
		
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Donâ€™t be afraid, we wonâ€™t spoil your glorious revolution


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Because they voted for it?
		
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By that logic, if you employ a builder to do an extension and it falls down it's your fault for employing him, not his for being incompetent.


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			By that logic, if you employ a builder to do an extension and it falls down it's your fault for employing him, not his for being incompetent.
		
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Itâ€™s important to pick a decent builder with a good reputation.

Brexiteers didnâ€™t choose well unfortunately.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Itâ€™s important to pick a decent builder with a good reputation.

Brexiteers didnâ€™t choose well unfortunately.
		
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Leavers weren't given a choice; a Remainer did the choosing which explains an awful lot of the mess we are currently in.  She, however, probably doesn't see it that way.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I have seen people lose their jobs all my life, I have lost a few myself but thats the way of the world, always has been.    Its not good but like the poor will always be with us. Like I said calm down and get some perspective man.
		
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You probably lost them because your an incompetent annoying ðŸ¤¡, not because someone voted for something based on no facts, racism and general ignorance.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Leavers weren't given a choice; a Remainer did the choosing which explains an awful lot of the mess we are currently in.  She, however, probably doesn't see it that way.
		
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You cannot blame remainers for any of this ... it was a leave party .. sort it out.


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

isnt this what leavers wanted - the uk government to be autonomous, to make our laws for us, separate from Europe? To take back control!

Unfortunate that the uk government isnâ€™t up to the task - leavers or remainders!

Weâ€™re giving control to ineptitude on all sides. That is one of the main reasons Iâ€™m worried about the future!


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## Dando (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Also i wouldnâ€™t get your hopes up too much if you are relying on the young vote to save your cause, they are notorious layabouts. ðŸ›Œ
		
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But if they donâ€™t vote then that means they want to stay! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You cannot blame remainers for any of this ... it was a leave party .. sort it out.
		
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You can blame the retainers not accepting the vote result and the Remainers in Parliament undermining the process.  Get on board.


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## drdel (Jan 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You cannot blame remainers for any of this ... it was a leave party .. sort it out.
		
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It became a 'leave party' because, you might want to note, there was a winning majority on their side. Blame the remainers for failing to honour the vote!!


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			It became a 'leave party' because, you might want to note, there was a winning majority on their side. Blame the remainers for failing to honour the vote!!
		
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Leave want to â€œtake back controlâ€.
Donâ€™t moan when those you wanna have control wield it.


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## Dando (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I know 3 Leave voters who are now resolute remainers.
		
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Best we cancel brexit then with that sort of swing in numbers


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Leave want to â€œtake back controlâ€.
Donâ€™t moan when those you wanna have control wield it.
		
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After all, unlike the EU (apparently), they were democratically elected to make these decisions for you!


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## Dando (Jan 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You probably lost them because your an incompetent annoying ðŸ¤¡, not because someone voted for something based on no facts, racism and general ignorance.
		
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classy.
And leavers get accused of name calling


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You probably lost them because your an incompetent annoying ðŸ¤¡, not because someone voted for something based on no facts, *racism and general ignorance*.
		
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Brexit = Racism?...Your view of the world is truly horrifying.


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## Dando (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Brexit = Racism?...Your view of the world is truly horrifying.
		
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Its Like having Delc back


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You probably lost them because your an incompetent annoying ðŸ¤¡, not because someone voted for something based on no facts, racism and general ignorance.
		
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Oh the irony !

How's this for incompetent:
Principle Production Engineer at British Aerospace.
CEO of a World class CadCam software development and sales Company with World wide offices and sales distributors.
Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Management.
Degrees in Production Engineering and Management Studies.


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## bluewolf (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Well thatâ€™s me convinced then!ðŸ˜‚
		
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Not the brightest are we? I can only convey my experience. Feel free to do the same. Mocking just makes it look like you don't have an answer.


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## bluewolf (Jan 19, 2019)

Dando said:



			Best we cancel brexit then with that sort of swing in numbers
		
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Again. I'm only conveying my experience within my circle. Stop panicking. Your glorious revolution is happening. Don't demean yourself by responding to little old Remainer me ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## bluewolf (Jan 19, 2019)

Any response yet on my earlier question re: factories moving to the EU?


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## Stuart_C (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Any response yet on my earlier question re: factories moving to the EU?
		
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Donâ€™t be silly it wonâ€™t happen, itâ€™s just â€œproject fearâ€ðŸ™„


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## Old Skier (Jan 19, 2019)

Looks like I've missed a Momentum twitter storm while I've been away.

Shock horror a Dutch firm has moved a factory back to - Holland, a country whose unemployment is predicted to rise in 2019. Perhaps they are looking after their own.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



_c_

Can you guarantee  how lives will be affected whatever we do, people are always losing their jobs just like new jobs are being created.  Millions of new jobs have been created  over recent years.  You need to get some perspective.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m not the one giving the guarantees though - I have seen people losing their jobs because of this whole process, people with young families , I know people whose livelihood relies on a good working relationship and trade with the EU. I have all the perspective I need and certainly not from someone who i suspect doesnâ€™t need to rely on the EU and they donâ€™t really care about the affect itâ€™s going to have on people. But I guess thatâ€™s the way these days.
		
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Iâ€™d lose my job if Corbyn got in power and he got his way. and so would many others I work alongside. i could lose my job if Scotland got its independence. 

Jobs come and go.


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## Stuart_C (Jan 19, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Looks like I've missed a Momentum twitter storm while I've been away.

Shock horror a Dutch firm has moved a factory back to - Holland, a country whose unemployment is predicted to rise in 2019. *Perhaps they are looking after their own*.
		
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Are they closing the rest of their factoryâ€™s outside of Holland?


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## Dando (Jan 19, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Looks like I've missed a Momentum twitter storm while I've been away.

Shock horror a Dutch firm has moved a factory back to - Holland, a country whose unemployment is predicted to rise in 2019. Perhaps they are looking after their own.
		
Click to expand...

racists!


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## Old Skier (Jan 19, 2019)

Dando said:



			racists!
		
Click to expand...


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## Old Skier (Jan 19, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Are they closing the rest of their factoryâ€™s outside of Holland?
		
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I doubt if they would the ones in the Far East. Big company's like cheap Labour.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Looks like I've missed a Momentum twitter storm while I've been away.

Shock horror a Dutch firm has moved a factory back to - Holland, a country whose unemployment is predicted to rise in 2019. Perhaps they are looking after their own.
		
Click to expand...

 Dianne Abbott  said a Dutch firm are moving their factory from Holland to the Netherlands due to Brexit


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## Old Skier (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Dianne Abbott  said a Dutch firm are moving their factory from Holland to the Netherlands due to Brexit
		
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Don't start knocking dear old Dianne , you'll definitely start a momentum witch hunt.


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## Stuart_C (Jan 19, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I doubt if they would the ones in the Far East. Big company's like cheap Labour.
		
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Youâ€™re right they do, I wonder why they never closed that factory 20yrs ago, theyâ€™d have saved millions....

So your â€œperhaps theyâ€™re looking after their ownâ€ comment isnâ€™t really true. Brexit is the reason, accept it ðŸ‘ðŸ»

I think the one issue most leavers/remainers agree on is how bad May and co have handled these negotiations. Absolute mess.

Even some 28 months later they still havenâ€™t agreed a plan and doesnt look likely to in the near future.


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## Old Skier (Jan 19, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I know 3 Leave voters who are now resolute remainers.
		
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I've just been away with 10 folk, 6 were levers and 4 were remainers, of the 4 remainers 3 said they would now vote leave and the 6 weren't going to change. I have to take it, like you, at face value. None of us know how anyone else will really vote when or if they have another chance.

All I really know is what I'm going to do when I go into the booth.


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## Old Skier (Jan 19, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Youâ€™re right they do, I wonder why they never closed that factory 20yrs ago, theyâ€™d have saved millions....

So your â€œperhaps theyâ€™re looking after their ownâ€ comment isnâ€™t really true. Brexit is the reason, accept it ðŸ‘ðŸ»

I think the one issue most leavers/remainers agree on is how bad May and co have handled these negotiations. Absolute mess.

Even some 28 months later they still havenâ€™t agreed a plan and doesnt look likely to in the near future.
		
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Which is why I used the word "perhaps", unlike remainers I don't pretend to know all the answers.


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## Stuart_C (Jan 19, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Which is why I used the word "perhaps", unlike remainers I don't pretend to know all the answers.
		
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You donâ€™t have to pretend, you know the real reason is brexit ðŸ‘ðŸ»


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Which is why I used the word "perhaps", unlike remainers I don't pretend to know all the answers.
		
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I donâ€™t use anything definite, I work on perhaps.
But I know what I have now & I donâ€™t want to risk it based on the â€œperhaps â€œ given by leave politicians I wouldnâ€™t trust anymore than a paedo in a kindergarten!


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## harpo_72 (Jan 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Brexit = Racism?...Your view of the world is truly horrifying.
		
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Wake up and smell the coffee


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## harpo_72 (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh the irony !

How's this for incompetent:
Principle Production Engineer at British Aerospace.
CEO of a World class CadCam software development and sales Company with World wide offices and sales distributors.
Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Management.
Degrees in Production Engineering and Management Studies.
		
Click to expand...

Yesterdayâ€™s news, insulated from reality. Bit like the two leavers in our team on final salary pensions ... love the phrase letâ€™s all work together to resolve this ... then hide ...


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## Old Skier (Jan 19, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			You donâ€™t have to pretend, you know the real reason is brexit ðŸ‘ðŸ»
		
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Hasn't happened so I personally doubt it, I presume you know the real reason but I don't  have an in on Phillips board meetings.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 19, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Iâ€™d lose my job if Corbyn got in power and he got his way. and so would many others I work alongside. i could lose my job if Scotland got its independence.

Jobs come and go.
		
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Do you know what his way is? I donâ€™t think he does ... but you have just participated in project fear .. which is how the Tories approach every election.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 19, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Which is why I used the word "perhaps", unlike remainers I don't pretend to know all the answers.
		
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Remainers have a simple state of affairs we know current state ... Leavers donâ€™t have a clue, pooh pooh any data offer no plans .. generally shout project fear or leave means leave ... scatter their posts with emojis, get upset when they get identified as being out of touch, insulated from reality, closet members of the EDL ...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yesterdayâ€™s news, insulated from reality. Bit like the two leavers in our team on final salary pensions ... love the phrase letâ€™s all work together to resolve this ... then hide ...
		
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Insulated from reality ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Remainers have a simple state of affairs we know current state ... Leavers donâ€™t have a clue, pooh pooh any data offer no plans .. generally shout project fear or leave means leave ... scatter their posts with emojis, get upset when they get identified as being out of touch, insulated from reality, closet members of the EDL ...
		
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ðŸ˜‚   Stop it my sides are splitting.


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Remainers have a simple state of affairs we know current state ... Leavers donâ€™t have a clue, pooh pooh any data offer no plans .. generally shout project fear or leave means leave  ...
		
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Word it differently, up to this point, I donâ€™t entirely disagree.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh the irony !

How's this for incompetent:
Principle Production Engineer at British Aerospace.
CEO of a World class CadCam software development and sales Company with World wide offices and sales distributors.
Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Management.
Degrees in Production Engineering and Management Studies.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah but harpo drive an F type dontcha know! ðŸ˜œðŸ¤­ðŸ˜‚ (and he hates emojis!ðŸ¤¬ðŸ˜)


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you know what his way is? I donâ€™t think he does ... but you have just participated in project fear .. which is how the Tories approach every election.
		
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He ought to know, heâ€™s been campaigning for it most of his political career..


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Any response yet on my earlier question re: factories moving to the EU?
		
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Mate, I have life outside of the GM forum. A great meal followed by a David Bowie tribute act and then drinks at the neighbours. Relax ffs.


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Yeah but harpo drive an F type dontcha know! ðŸ˜œðŸ¤­ðŸ˜‚ (and he hates emojis!ðŸ¤¬ðŸ˜)
		
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What! The precious Harpo sees one emoji and shouts "how dare you insult me!"




Then goes back to playing with his Lego before his mum shouts its bedtime.........................snowflake


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## bluewolf (Jan 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Mate, I have life outside of the GM forum. A great meal followed by a David Bowie tribute act and then drinks at the neighbours. Relax ffs.
		
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It's open to anyone really. It doesn't have to be you ðŸ‘


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## bluewolf (Jan 20, 2019)

Has everyone calmed down now? ðŸ˜‚

You could certainly tell it was a Saturday night eh? ðŸ·ðŸ·ðŸ·ðŸ·ðŸ·ðŸ·ðŸ¥ƒ


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## harpo_72 (Jan 20, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			He ought to know, heâ€™s been campaigning for it most of his political career..
		
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He should commit or go to Nigelâ€™s party. Either way itâ€™s the same for the Tories they are split by remain and leave .. both parties are guilty of trying to maintain numbers and power.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What! The precious Harpo sees one emoji and shouts "how dare you insult me!"




Then goes back to playing with his Lego before his mum shouts its bedtime.........................snowflake
		
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This started on the level, but the condescending replies, you laid out the rules of engagement, you shut the door on reasonable debate. 
These are your true colours.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 20, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Very true, but the question he's asking is 

"How many job losses will be acceptable for the ardent No Deal fans? How much of a bump in the road is acceptable?"

My Company exports over 50% of its products to the US and the EU. We don't currently know what the impact of a No Deal will be, but any financial impact will result in cuts. Depending on the impact then those cuts could be jobs. Maybe mine. So, how many job cuts are acceptable?
		
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Good question and it has to be asked. I don't know the answer but I would suggest that the EU won't block any imports if it is goods or services that they need. I could see them blocking luxury goods though.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 20, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Good question and it has to be asked. I don't know the answer but I would suggest that the EU won't block any imports if it is goods or services that they need. I could see them blocking luxury goods though.
		
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That would be a good starting point for a deal ! 
From my perspective taxing luxury goods is not unpalatable, but definition of luxury might have a few interesting debates. For example, and forgive me if this sounds trivial.. but take the humble avocado, is it a luxury item or something we should all be entitled to? Personally I think itâ€™s not a luxury... just try it in a bacon butty.


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## USER1999 (Jan 20, 2019)

Avocado is a punishment, not a luxury.


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## drdel (Jan 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			That would be a good starting point for a deal !
From my perspective taxing luxury goods is not unpalatable, but definition of luxury might have a few interesting debates. For example, and forgive me if this sounds trivial.. but take the humble avocado, is it a luxury item or something we should all be entitled to? Personally I think itâ€™s not a luxury... just try it in a bacon butty.
		
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O
You might be happy to leave. The Avocado you desire is imported: but not from the EU. 

It incurs an EU duty, post Brexit it might even be cheaper!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Good question and it has to be asked. I don't know the answer but I would suggest that the EU won't block any imports if it is goods or services that they need. I could see them blocking luxury goods though.
		
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Would it be in their interest to block imports from a country that runs a trade deficit.   If we were trading on WTO terms they would also be constrained by their rules as a WTO member and as such would have to apply the same restrictions to all other countries they trade with.   Blocking goods leads to trade wars and that's in no ones interest. I think they like fish in the EU.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			O
You might be happy to leave. The Avocado you desire is imported: but not from the EU. 

It incurs an EU duty, post Brexit it might even be cheaper!
		
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This is what i don't understand about tariffs. If we don't or can't grow them in the EU why would tariffs be applied?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 20, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			This is what i don't understand about tariffs. If we don't or can't grow them in the EU why would tariffs be applied?
		
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It may be a quid pro quo situation with another country or trading bloc. They add a tariff on something the eu wants to export so in retaliation the EU add a tariff on a key export of theirs. It is how trade wars escalate .


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## IanM (Jan 20, 2019)

Lisbon Treaty.  The rest is just noise


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## Slime (Jan 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



*Remainers have a simple state of affairs we know current state* ... Leavers donâ€™t have a clue, pooh pooh any data offer no plans .. generally shout project fear or leave means leave ... scatter their posts with emojis, get upset when they get identified as being out of touch, insulated from reality, closet members of the EDL ...
		
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......................... and the current state of affairs is the the people voted TO LEAVE THE EU.
What part of that can you not accept?
Our reasons for voting leave are irrelevant, the fact is that the leave vote won, get over it and move on.
Jeez, broken record.


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Leavers weren't given a choice; a Remainer did the choosing which explains an awful lot of the mess we are currently in.  She, however, probably doesn't see it that way.
		
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Leavers WERE given a choice - at least, those in the Conservative party. However, they failed to provide a suitable candidate in the leadership election, the most visible (Boris) actually reneging on the opportunity!

While May may be a leaver, she seems to me to have honoured her commitment to implement Leave. As I've posted several times, it was/is a poisoned chalice!

So stop blaming May for the intransigence of the EU negotiators! It was always going to be difficult to get an exit with a 'good for UK' deal. To me, the 'good deal' (now) needs to be created AFTER exit from commitments/agreement negotiated. And if (the threat of) No Deal is an appropriate tactic, then I'm all for it!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			This is what i don't understand about tariffs. If we don't or can't grow them in the EU why would tariffs be applied?
		
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The answer to that is for the UK to import them directly from the Country that grows them.

A quick google shows 45% of the world supply of Avocados is from Mexico, the rest from other South American Countries

Just imagine roads devoid of BMW drivers.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 20, 2019)

Worrying Brexit statistic I read, 87% of toilet rolls are imported.
You would think that the former British Empire could at least produce bog rolls


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## IanM (Jan 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Worrying Brexit statistic I read, 87% of toilet rolls are imported.
You would think that the former British Empire could at least produce bog rolls
		
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Iâ€™d have thought that a business worried about exchange rate risk would use an alternative base currency!


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Would it be in their interest to block imports from a country that runs a trade deficit.   If we were trading on WTO terms they would also be constrained by their rules as a WTO member and as such would have to apply the same restrictions to all other countries they trade with* unless they have a specific trade agreement*.  Blocking goods leads to trade wars and that's in no ones interest. I think they like fish in the EU.
		
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Note the (important, imo) correction! EU has many such agreements in place and, as is its obligation, is in the process of negotiating more.

But I agree with the inference of your first sentence.

And, perhaps clarifying your original 2nd sentence, as EU applies WTO MFN rules, UK would get the same deal as any other WTO member though - ie could not be discriminated against.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Worrying Brexit statistic I read, 87% of toilet rolls are imported.
You would think that the former British Empire could at least produce bog rolls
		
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 Where did you read that?   Andrex makes their Toilet Tissue in the UK along with some other manufacturers.   What has it to do with Brexit anyway, maybe you can explain your logic.


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Worrying Brexit statistic I read, 87% of toilet rolls are imported.
You would think that the former British Empire could at least produce bog rolls
		
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Talking more sh1t Doon?


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## Old Skier (Jan 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



 Where did you read that?   Andrex makes their Toilet Tissue in the UK along with some other manufacturers.   What has it to do with Brexit anyway, maybe you can explain your logic.
		
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Your quoting Doon and asking for logic in the same post


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			O
You might be happy to leave. The Avocado you desire is imported: but not from the EU.

*It incurs an EU duty*, post Brexit it might even be cheaper!
		
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Applicable Duty for most of those imported (from Mexico) is zero! So Duty won't reduce after Brexit!


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## Fade and Die (Jan 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Worrying Brexit statistic I read, 87% of toilet rolls are imported.
You would think that the former British Empire could at least produce bog rolls
		
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Luckily we have found 2 million of these to use instead.....


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Worrying Brexit statistic I read, 87% of toilet rolls are imported.
You would think that the former British Empire could at least produce bog rolls
		
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I'd be very surprised at that. Toilet rolls are a cheap, bulky item, not ideal for transportation over distance.  We also have lots of factories in the UK that can make them, it is not a sophisticated product. If the figure is correct it is a simple one to remedy if required. Saying that, maybe the margins are so small it is not worth producing in the eyes of some companies?

We do import a good deal of more sophisticated paper or wipe material from the eu, my company does, as whilst we produce some there are other nations that specialise in them to a greater extent,  Italy for example. However it should not be an issue still as material is a global commodity and the USA and Far East could take up any slack if required.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 20, 2019)

Slime said:



			......................... and the current state of affairs is the the people voted TO LEAVE THE EU.
What part of that can you not accept?
Our reasons for voting leave are irrelevant, the fact is that the leave vote won, get over it and move on.
Jeez, broken record.
		
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Whereâ€™s your deal ... ? Thatâ€™s the key question, I am not taking one for team leave, I want the deal that leaves me alone. That is my entitlement.
No one is stopping leave, unless itâ€™s going to throw us into chaos or lose our livelihood. Call that selfish if you like but were you thinking about impacts to others when you voted leave or just your own situation? Because if itâ€™s the latter, donâ€™t get upset when others apply the same logic.


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## Old Skier (Jan 20, 2019)

I sometimes wonder if the some of the remain group actually bother to vote or understand what the vote was about.
We had a referendum with an in or out vote we then had a general election with the major parties stating in their manifesto that they would implement the referendum result.  The two major parties received votes from one of the largest turn outs in voting history backing them, I can only assume that voters realized what they were voting on even though the politicians seem to have forgotten.

Who did all these remainers vote for in the GE ?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Whereâ€™s your deal ... ? Thatâ€™s the key question, I am not taking one for team leave, I want the deal that leaves me alone. That is my entitlement.
No one is stopping leave, unless itâ€™s going to throw us into chaos or lose our livelihood. Call that selfish if you like but were you thinking about impacts to others when you voted leave or just your own situation? Because if itâ€™s the latter, donâ€™t get upset when others apply the same logic.
		
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We only had the opportunity to vote on whether to stay or leave, we were not asked to make a deal or plan.  We assume that's what our politicians are there for.  The Government arranged a deal but that was not accepted by Parliament so we must see what deal they can come up with.  No point in getting bitter with people who just wanted out.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Whereâ€™s your deal ... ? Thatâ€™s the key question, I am not taking one for team leave, I want the deal that leaves me alone. That is my entitlement.
No one is stopping leave, unless itâ€™s going to throw us into chaos or lose our livelihood. Call that selfish if you like but* were you thinking about impacts to others when you voted leave or just your own situation?* Because if itâ€™s the latter, donâ€™t get upset when others apply the same logic.
		
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Whereas every Remain voter considered everyone elseâ€™s position before voting, obviously. 

Itâ€™s pretty obvious that everyone looked at the vote from a personal perspective, throwing that around simply devalues or obscures any valid points your post may have had.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



*Leavers WERE given a choice - at least, those in the Conservative party.* However, they failed to provide a suitable candidate in the leadership election, the most visible (Boris) actually reneging on the opportunity!

While May may be a leaver, she seems to me to have honoured her commitment to implement Leave. As I've posted several times, it was/is a poisoned chalice!

So stop blaming May for the intransigence of the EU negotiators! It was always going to be difficult to get an exit with a 'good for UK' deal. To me, the 'good deal' (now) needs to be created AFTER exit from commitments/agreement negotiated. And if (the threat of) No Deal is an appropriate tactic, then I'm all for it!
		
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So thatâ€™s a pretty insignificant proportion on the Leave voters who are being blamed for the mess.  

The politicians gave us the choice to leave, I donâ€™t think itâ€™s unreasonable to expect them to be competent enough to deliver it. 

And I donâ€™t blame May for the intransigence of the EU negotiatiors, I expected nothing less. I blame her for the incompetence of our side, aided and abetted in my opinion by her interference as a Remainet; how else do you explain that dogâ€™s dinner of a deal that she cobbled together?

Oh, and when did May become a Leaver... ðŸ˜‰


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## harpo_72 (Jan 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Whereas every Remain voter considered everyone elseâ€™s position before voting, obviously.

Itâ€™s pretty obvious that everyone looked at the vote from a personal perspective, throwing that around simply devalues or obscures any valid points your post may have had.
		
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Iâ€™ll be honest the Irish complexity was not on my mind. The impacts across the businesses and the small businesses yes they have been considered... so yeah I did think about others, and my son.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Iâ€™ll be honest the Irish complexity was not on my mind. The impacts across the businesses and the small businesses yes they have been considered... so yeah I did think about others, and my son.
		
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As no doubt did many Leavers consider the effect on their families. So you werenâ€™t alone and your slight on Leave voters for being selfish is completely unjustified.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			As no doubt did many Leavers consider the effect on their families. So you werenâ€™t alone and your slight on Leave voters for being selfish is completely unjustified.
		
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There was no slight... read the statement...


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## Slime (Jan 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Worrying Brexit statistic I read, *87% of toilet rolls are imported.*
You would think that the former British Empire could at least produce bog rolls
		
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Well, you'll just have to use both sides from now on.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd be very surprised at that. Toilet rolls are a cheap, bulky item, not ideal for transportation over distance.  We also have lots of factories in the UK that can make them, it is not a sophisticated product. If the figure is correct it is a simple one to remedy if required. Saying that, maybe the margins are so small it is not worth producing in the eyes of some companies?

We do import a good deal of more sophisticated paper or wipe material from the eu, my company does, as whilst we produce some there are other nations that specialise in them to a greater extent,  Italy for example. However it should not be an issue still as material is a global commodity and the USA and Far East could take up any slack if required.
		
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That is what I thought.

Where I lived we export loads of trees to Sweden of all places. No doubt coming back to us in Ikea flatpacks
Swedish tourists get quite upset when the see our Galloway commercial forests,


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Talking more sh1t Doon?

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Naw https://www.indexbox.io/blog/which-country-imports-the-most-toilet-paper-in-the-world/

But you are typing it


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 20, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Luckily we have found 2 million of these to use instead.....

View attachment 26386

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Two million, wow I did not know that they produced that many, thanks for that. 
All crowdfunded by a blogger.

The new one is coming out next month, should be a blast.


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## JamesR (Jan 20, 2019)

I remember gurning Greg Wallace on the programme about factories was at a bog roll factory in the uk .
Canâ€™t remember where or which company though


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 20, 2019)

Interesting view from the other side of the world

https://www.express.co.uk/videos/570732/Brexit-It-shouldn-t-have-been-this-hard-says-Sky-News-host


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is what I thought.

Where I lived we export loads of trees to Sweden of all places. No doubt coming back to us in Ikea flatpacks
Swedish tourists get quite upset when the see our Galloway commercial forests,
		
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They must be cacking themselves incase they don't get our trees after Brexit.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is what I thought.

Where I lived we export loads of trees to Sweden of all places. No doubt coming back to us in Ikea flatpacks
Swedish tourists get quite upset when the see our Galloway commercial forests,
		
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I went to Stockholm last year with work.  Flying in you pass mile after mile of forests and lakes, beautiful landscape. It seems funny that they would be importing trees but it could be different types of course. 

Very expensive place Stockholm but one I think worth returning to for another visit, not work this time.


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## USER1999 (Jan 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I went to Stockholm last year with work.  Flying in you pass mile after mile of forests and lakes, beautiful landscape. It seems funny that they would be importing trees but it could be different types of course. 

Very expensive place Stockholm but one I think worth returning to for another visit, not work this time.
		
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Why would they want to cut their own trees down?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 20, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Why would they want to cut their own trees down?
		
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Ha ha, smart thinking


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			There was no slight... read the statement...
		
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harpo_72 said:



			Whereâ€™s your deal ... ? Thatâ€™s the key question, *I am not taking one for team leave, I want the deal that leaves me alone. That is my entitlement.  *No one is stopping leave, unless itâ€™s going to throw us into chaos or lose our livelihood. Call that selfish if you like but *were you thinking about impacts to others when you voted leave or just your own situation?* Because if itâ€™s the latter, donâ€™t get upset when others apply the same logic.
		
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There's the statement, it reads like the rant of a petulant child. 

If you'd said "were you thinking of the rights of others when you voted" then there would be no slight.  The moment you add "leave" to that statement it becomes a slight as it's aimed at only one side of the vote.

You don't have an entitlement to be unaffected; none of us do, it's part of living in a community.  When Government changes & taxation levels alter, do people who didn't vote for that Government have the right to be left alone?  Of course they don't, they have to toe the line.  And that is what should happen here, but I doubt it will as Government does its best to block Brexit.

Doubtless were Brexit to prove a huge benefit to the country you wouldn't be happy to be better off as you want to be left alone; can we take it you'd pay all yours back in line with your strong principles?  No, of course you wouldn't.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			There's the statement, it reads like the rant of a petulant child.

If you'd said "were you thinking of the rights of others when you voted" then there would be no slight.  The moment you add "leave" to that statement it becomes a slight as it's aimed at only one side of the vote.

You don't have an entitlement to be unaffected; none of us do, it's part of living in a community.  When Government changes & taxation levels alter, do people who didn't vote for that Government have the right to be left alone?  Of course they don't, they have to toe the line.  And that is what should happen here, but I doubt it will as Government does its best to block Brexit.

Doubtless were Brexit to prove a huge benefit to the country you wouldn't be happy to be better off as you want to be left alone; can we take it you'd pay all yours back in line with your strong principles?  No, of course you wouldn't.
		
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So you going to kick off if we have no Brexit? As we are part of a community....
You read into a statement what ever you like.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 20, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Why would they want to cut their own trees down?
		
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In Sweden most of their trees are natural native self seeded.

Scotland has considerable commercial forestry, a lot of it was planted in the wrong places under Thatcher's 1970's rich peoples tax dodge scheme.
Most of the badly planted areas, such as The Flow Country,Glen Etive and on Mull, have now matured and the trees have been cut down.

Forestry is now starting to work quite successfully under the Scottish Governments guidelines


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So you going to kick off if we have no Brexit? As we are part of a community....
		
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I'll be entitled to kick off if the elected Government fails to enact the result of the vote.  Don't know whether or not I actually will, but as the community voted to leave I'll be entitled.  Far more entitled than those demanding a new vote because they don't like the result and are consequently ranting like petulant children...   Oh, sorry, I used an emoji.



harpo_72 said:



			You read into a statement what ever you like.
		
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No further defence of the slight then?  Guilty as charged.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 21, 2019)

Hells teeth...â€¦â€¦..In a Sky poll 26% thought that no deal meant we stayed in the EU.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hells teeth...â€¦â€¦..In a Sky poll 26% thought that no deal meant we stayed in the EU. 

Click to expand...

They will be the people who watch Geordie Shore, Love Island, The Kardashians etc. Disturbing but they walk amongst us and are allowed to vote


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hells teeth...â€¦â€¦..In a Sky poll 26% thought that no deal meant we stayed in the EU. 

Click to expand...

If some MPs get their way then that 26% might be more right than you are giving them credit for.


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## User62651 (Jan 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



*In Sweden most of their trees are natural native self seeded*.

Scotland has considerable commercial forestry, a lot of it was planted in the wrong places under Thatcher's 1970's rich peoples tax dodge scheme.
Most of the badly planted areas, such as The Flow Country,Glen Etive and on Mull, have now matured and the trees have been cut down.

Forestry is now starting to work quite successfully under the Scottish Governments guidelines
		
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Sorry Doon, some of that and earlier posts isn't quite right. This is my line of work.

Swedens commerical trees are planted, not self seeded. Self seeding does not produce a uniform crop that is ideal for producing regular size trees needed for an automated sawmilling process. They hammered their natural forest resource in 19th century and then undertook a massive reforestation program since through hand planting.

Re the exports from Scotland, we are only exporting to Sweden small roundwood which is small diameter pieces of timber in the 5cm dia to 14cm dia range, anything bigger is log size and worth a lot more money and is used domestically at Carlisle, Dalbeattie and Lockerbie mills and sometimes to Irish mills. Logs are sawn, small roundwood is chipped or reduced to fibres.

Sweden does masses of forest logging and replanting (300 million trees + per year from nurseries and hand planted), it's one of their biggest industries, all sustainably managed.

UK commercial timber is primarily fast grown American sitka spruce (named after Sitka Island) that likes our temperate damp climate, Swedes dont grow sitka spruce, too cold and dry there for it,  they grow native species Scots Pine and Norway spruce but very slowly with short growing season. Taking 3000 tonnes of sitka from UK on a boat from Montrose works out cheaper than hauling by lorry and road from internal Sweden for low value small diameter timber material they are turning into particle board/MDF/OSB/paper etc. Therefore they take what they can that way on top of what they produce themselves.

When you fell a typical sitka tree here you will get 3 logs and 2 pieces of small roundwood out of it. Stumps, branches and tops are left in forest to helps make mats to run the machines over then rot down.

The Flow Country has seem removal of trees from unsuitable land that were put there under pre 1988 Schedule D tax relief on forestry I agree. Mull and Glen Etive are fine for commercial forestry, if you fell them there you have to by law replant. Mull is a bit anti-forestry, not locals but white settlers typically. There is a left wing land reform driven anti-landowner issue too, community buyouts etc. Hate timber lorries getting in the way of tourists with cash heading to Iona and Tobermory etc. The forests actually act as habitat for their beloved white tailed eagles too.

Uk foresty took some stick, some deserved, some not for tax driven inappropriate planting in 70s/80s. These days the controls and bureaucracy is heavy and the 2 standards of UKFS and UKWAS we have to meet are pretty stringent in terms of biodiversity gains and environmental practice.

Scot Govt is promoting commercial forestry heavily and Fergus Ewing has been very good minister for forestry. The Forestry Commisison (about to have a name change soon) who police the forest plans which give felling approval etc to the private sector are who we have the most problems with, so slow and scared to death of upsetting RSPB,SNH, walkers etc etc.


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## ger147 (Jan 21, 2019)

So it seems like the prime minister's Plan B on Brexit is not to have a Plan B i.e. she has not announced a new plan in the HoC's this afternoon.

Taking a look at the opinion polls data on a 2nd EU referendum, there has been a fairly steady lead for Remain for 9 months and the lead has widened recently to an average of 6 points i.e. Remain 52%, Leave 46%.  If we're not leaving with no deal (the HoC's say they won't allow it) and we're not extending A50 (the PM won't allow it), it is starting to look increasingly likely that we won't be leaving at all IMO.


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## IanM (Jan 21, 2019)

...coughs.   Been saying that since the morning after the Ref.  NO vote against the EU has ever stood.  That in itself is the best reason to leave.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 21, 2019)

ger147 said:



			So it seems like the prime minister's Plan B on Brexit is not to have a Plan B i.e. she has not announced a new plan in the HoC's this afternoon.

Taking a look at the opinion polls data on a 2nd EU referendum, there has been a fairly steady lead for Remain for 9 months and the lead has widened recently to an average of 6 points i.e. Remain 52%, Leave 46%.  If we're not leaving with no deal (the HoC's say they won't allow it) and we're not extending A50 (the PM won't allow it), it is starting to look increasingly likely that we won't be leaving at all IMO.
		
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Sadly, a fair summary of where we are at..


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## harpo_72 (Jan 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'll be entitled to kick off if the elected Government fails to enact the result of the vote.  Don't know whether or not I actually will, but as the community voted to leave I'll be entitled.  Far more entitled than those demanding a new vote because they don't like the result and are consequently ranting like petulant children...   Oh, sorry, I used an emoji.



No further defence of the slight then?  Guilty as charged.
		
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Sounds like a kangaroo court, supported by the usual muppets, quick to cast aspersions, light on facts and willing to take offence.
2 yrs ago there was a referendum, looks like things have moved on. Now your upset because people arenâ€™t so enthralled at the future a leave with no deal can bring. 

Time always changes decision, the Iraq war was voted for by the HoC it was carried through, we went to war. Hindsight showed the reasons were incorrect. It wasnâ€™t such a great idea. Now look at Brexit, is it such a great idea?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 21, 2019)

ger147 said:



			So it seems like the prime minister's Plan B on Brexit is not to have a Plan B i.e. she has not announced a new plan in the HoC's this afternoon.

Taking a look at the opinion polls data on a 2nd EU referendum, there has been a fairly steady lead for Remain for 9 months and the lead has widened recently to an average of 6 points i.e. Remain 52%, Leave 46%.  If we're not leaving with no deal (the HoC's say they won't allow it) and we're not extending A50 (the PM won't allow it), it is starting to look increasingly likely that we won't be leaving at all IMO.
		
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Leaving with No Deal will happen unless the current law is changed. When you say the HOC won't  allow it they did allow it when they voted for article 50.


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## ger147 (Jan 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Leaving with No Deal will happen unless the current law is changed. When you say the HOC won't  allow it they did allow it when they voted for article 50.
		
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I'm aware of the current position re. legislation in place.

IMO they will introduce legislation to stop it if they have to, that is the only thing there is currently a majority for in the HoC's.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Sounds like a kangaroo court, supported by the usual muppets, quick to cast aspersions, light on facts and willing to take offence.
2 yrs ago there was a referendum, looks like things have moved on. Now your upset because people arenâ€™t so enthralled at the future a leave with no deal can bring. 

Time always changes decision, the Iraq war was voted for by the HoC it was carried through, we went to war. Hindsight showed the reasons were incorrect. It wasnâ€™t such a great idea. Now look at Brexit, is it such a great idea?
		
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What kind of twisted logic is that.  If that's the case we should not accept any new laws or resolutions in Parliament as people may change their mind. Or is this only relevant to Brexit.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Sounds like a kangaroo court, supported by the usual muppets, quick to cast aspersions, light on facts and willing to take offence.
2 yrs ago there was a referendum, looks like things have moved on. Now your upset because people arenâ€™t so enthralled at the future a leave with no deal can bring.

Time always changes decision, the Iraq war was voted for by the HoC it was carried through, we went to war. Hindsight showed the reasons were incorrect. It wasnâ€™t such a great idea. *Now look at Brexit, is it such a great idea?*

Click to expand...

It's a fantastic idea if only we had politicians with the brains and testicular fortitude to see it through.  Sadly we don't; lions led by donkeys.

As for the usual muppets, aren't you the bloke that goes off about childish insults, yet you put a line like that?  Uou've hung yourself with your own comments, no-one needed to cast any aspersions. 

As for comparing this with the Iraq War, you tell us hindsight proved that to be wrong, yet you're hanging your hat on the version of Brexit endorsed by the proven liar that took us to war.  You couldn't make it up.

Looks like you'll get to stay in Europe, regardless of what the majority wanted.  I'll live with that; the investments that I've got that have taken a hit will come back short term, which relatively speaking is what I've got left, so I'll be fine.  Long term as the EU drags us deeper into the mire and the economy slowly tanks you can enjoy the fruits of your victory, by then it won't bother me one jot.

You've proven yourself a hypocrite in this thread, so like the other wind-up merchant that's dragged this thread down I'm not going to rise to any more of your bait.  Goodnight.


----------



## Slime (Jan 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Sounds like a kangaroo court, supported by the usual muppets, quick to cast aspersions, light on facts and willing to take offence.
2 yrs ago there was a referendum, looks like things have moved on. Now your upset because people arenâ€™t so enthralled at the future a leave with no deal can bring.

Time always changes decision, the Iraq war was voted for by the HoC it was carried through, we went to war. Hindsight showed the reasons were incorrect. It wasnâ€™t such a great idea. *Now look at Brexit, is it such a great idea?*

Click to expand...

I think so, yes. ........................... but what do I know, I'm only a muppet after all!


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## PieMan (Jan 21, 2019)

IMO one of the points that keeps


harpo_72 said:



			Time always changes decision, the Iraq war was voted for by the HoC it was carried through, we went to war. Hindsight showed the reasons were incorrect. It wasnâ€™t such a great idea. Now look at Brexit, is it such a great idea?
		
Click to expand...

But there wasn't a public referendum on whether to go to war with Iraq.


----------



## harpo_72 (Jan 21, 2019)

Slime said:



			I think so, yes. ........................... but what do I know, I'm only a muppet after all!
		
Click to expand...

Congrats on the realisation


----------



## harpo_72 (Jan 21, 2019)

PieMan said:



			IMO one of the points that keeps


But there wasn't a public referendum on whether to go to war with Iraq.
		
Click to expand...

Nope thatâ€™s very true. But not relevant to the point being made.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's a fantastic idea if only we had politicians with the brains and testicular fortitude to see it through.  Sadly we don't; lions led by donkeys.

As for the usual muppets, aren't you the bloke that goes off about childish insults, yet you put a line like that?  Uou've hung yourself with your own comments, no-one needed to cast any aspersions.

As for comparing this with the Iraq War, you tell us hindsight proved that to be wrong, yet you're hanging your hat on the version of Brexit endorsed by the proven liar that took us to war.  You couldn't make it up.

Looks like you'll get to stay in Europe, regardless of what the majority wanted.  I'll live with that; the investments that I've got that have taken a hit will come back short term, which relatively speaking is what I've got left, so I'll be fine.  Long term as the EU drags us deeper into the mire and the economy slowly tanks you can enjoy the fruits of your victory, by then it won't bother me one jot.

You've proven yourself a hypocrite in this thread, so like the other wind-up merchant that's dragged this thread down I'm not going to rise to any more of your bait.  Goodnight.
		
Click to expand...

Goodnight ... ðŸ˜¢


----------



## harpo_72 (Jan 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What kind of twisted logic is that.  If that's the case we should not accept any new laws or resolutions in Parliament as people may change their mind. Or is this only relevant to Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Keep up â€œyesterdayâ€™s newsâ€ ....


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## Slime (Jan 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Congrats on the realisation
		
Click to expand...

Is that really the best you can come up with?
Wow!


----------



## Dando (Jan 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's a fantastic idea if only we had politicians with the brains and testicular fortitude to see it through.  Sadly we don't; lions led by donkeys.

As for the usual muppets, aren't you the bloke that goes off about childish insults, yet you put a line like that?  Uou've hung yourself with your own comments, no-one needed to cast any aspersions.

As for comparing this with the Iraq War, you tell us hindsight proved that to be wrong, yet you're hanging your hat on the version of Brexit endorsed by the proven liar that took us to war.  You couldn't make it up.

Looks like you'll get to stay in Europe, regardless of what the majority wanted.  I'll live with that; the investments that I've got that have taken a hit will come back short term, which relatively speaking is what I've got left, so I'll be fine.  Long term as the EU drags us deeper into the mire and the economy slowly tanks you can enjoy the fruits of your victory, by then it won't bother me one jot.

You've proven yourself a hypocrite in this thread, so like the other wind-up merchant that's dragged this thread down I'm not going to rise to any more of your bait.  Goodnight.
		
Click to expand...

You forgot to add emojis ðŸ¤¦ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸


----------



## harpo_72 (Jan 21, 2019)

Slime said:



			Is that really the best you can come up with?
Wow!
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 21, 2019)

If I can butt in for a second. Today was supposed to be about plan b. There is goi g to be another vote on plan b next Tuesday I believe.  From what I've seen nothing has changed so presumably we are going to lose another week an TM is going to get another kicking? 

Am I wrong in this assessment? I haven't heard what the political journalists have said. Have they found something different that will unlock the logjam?


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jan 21, 2019)

Dando said:



			You forgot to add emojis ðŸ¤¦ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸
		
Click to expand...

And lower myself to that level?


----------



## Dando (Jan 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			And lower myself to that level? 

Click to expand...

Just this once mate


----------



## Fade and Die (Jan 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			And lower myself to that level? 

Click to expand...

Might I suggest...Wâš“ï¸?


----------



## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Sounds like a kangaroo court, supported by the usual muppets, quick to cast aspersions, light on facts and willing to take offence.
2 yrs ago there was a referendum, looks like things have moved on. Now your upset because people arenâ€™t so enthralled at the future a leave with no deal can bring.

Time always changes decision, the Iraq war was voted for by the HoC it was carried through, we went to war. Hindsight showed the reasons were incorrect. It wasnâ€™t such a great idea. Now look at Brexit, is it such a great idea?
		
Click to expand...

That is the best denial view I have ever read ðŸ‘


----------



## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If I can butt in for a second. Today was supposed to be about plan b. There is goi g to be another vote on plan b next Tuesday I believe.  From what I've seen nothing has changed so presumably we are going to lose another week an TM is going to get another kicking?

Am I wrong in this assessment? I haven't heard what the political journalists have said. Have they found something different that will unlock the logjam?
		
Click to expand...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46950719#share-tools

Dont think that is good enough to persuade 200 plus MPs to change there minds. Like someone said, it's not as if driving licenses and passports are free.  If someone from the EU don't want to pay Â£65 to live here and get free schooling, NHS etc etc then bugger off. Missis May has said she has listened to the concerns of the 3 million migrants living here, smart at least she is listening. Wonder when she gets round to listening to the 17 million


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Might I suggest...Wâš“ï¸?
		
Click to expand...

That's being kind.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jan 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Might I suggest...Wâš“ï¸?
		
Click to expand...

Me or him?


----------



## Dando (Jan 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Might I suggest...Wâš“ï¸?
		
Click to expand...

How about 
ðŸ›ŽðŸ”š


----------



## Fade and Die (Jan 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Me or him? 

Click to expand...

Not you mate ðŸ˜


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## Mudball (Jan 21, 2019)

So for my understanding... is the difference between Plan A and Plan B is Â£65 ?  
... when she says she is listening to people, i am not sure which people is she listening to? ... Its a bit like Sixth Sense.. where she is having talks with imaginary people..


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## SocketRocket (Jan 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So for my understanding... is the difference between Plan A and Plan B is Â£65 ? 
... when she says she is listening to people, i am not sure which people is she listening to? ... Its a bit like Sixth Sense.. where she is having talks with imaginary people..
		
Click to expand...

Did people listen to what she said today. She said she has listened to MPs and does not agree with another referendum. She also made it clear that if people didnt want a no deal then they should accept a deal.  She also explained she will go back to the EU and attempt again to get changes to the backstop.

I don't like her current deal one bit but but lets at least be fair about what she is currently saying.


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## drdel (Jan 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Did people listen to what she said today. She said she has listened to MPs and does not agree with another referendum. She also made it clear that if people didnt want a no deal then they should accept a deal.  She also explained she will go back to the EU and attempt again to get changes to the backstop.

I don't like her current deal one bit but but lets at least be fair about what she is currently saying.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. I watched her compotent performance and heard her own words. I think others should do so rather than rely on the soundbites from what is lazy reporting saying B is like A.  There are a number of points where she has agreed to take them on board and return to the EU. It is not within the gift of the PM to agreed to make unilateral changes to a document that was the result of negotiation.

It is amusing that JC has tabled an amendment that will unilaterally take off the table a 'No Deal' when it is not within his gift. Similarly JC also proposed a 2nd vote when there are a considerable number of Labour MPs who are against such an amendment.


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## Foxholer (Jan 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			...

It is amusing that JC has tabled an amendment that will unilaterally take off the table a 'No Deal' when it is not within his gift. Similarly JC also proposed a 2nd vote when there are a considerable number of Labour MPs who are against such an amendment.
		
Click to expand...

JC is floundering - as is usual for a 'leader of the opposition', but more-so in his case.

He's entitled to propose such a vote, as he is using the Whips to keep 'his troops' in line. Whether they can do so will/would be interesting to watch.

As for the logic of parliament removing 'No Deal' from the equation (if indeed that's actually possible under A50, which I doubt). That action would weaken UK's already tenuous negotiation position!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 22, 2019)

Out of Interest do you think that the EU will impose 'settled status' on British immigrants who are currently living, working and bring up families within Europe,


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## Hobbit (Jan 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Out of Interest do you think that the EU will impose 'settled status' on British immigrants who are currently living, working and bring up families within Europe,
		
Click to expand...

Providing expatriates have applied for and received settled status by Brexit day, and have signed up for â€˜localâ€™ taxation, theyâ€™re ok. Same hoops that a non-EU citizen has to jump through.

 They will also need to sort their driving licence for a local one. However, having residencia in one EU country doesnâ€™t mean you have it, or freedom to travel, in another EU country.


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## hors limite (Jan 22, 2019)

hors limite said:



			I have never been able to understand the point that is being made here. Each party constructs a manifesto with multiple elements. If you choose to vote for a party, you might support some of those policies but not all. To suggest that a vote for the Conservatives or Labour automatically  translated into support for " honouring the referendum" is a desperate interpretation of the world as you would like it to be.
Similarly, I would like to take issue with your remarks about a "no deal Brexit" causing " bumps in the road". Being a bit worse off might be tolerable if your budget boasts some slack, if it doesn't it isn't. If job losses result that isn't a bump in the road. One of your fellow travellers, Bernard Jenkin, when questioned about the potential impact on the Nissan plant said that Sunderland's Leave voters would find any job losses a price worth paying, I think that he has lost contact with reality., Rees-Mogg was interviewed by Andrew Neil a couple of days ago. His usual breezy support for a no deal had deserted him, his description of it was " survivable". He then went on to parrot his claims for the benefits of zero tariffs and when pressed came up with some marginal savings on a pair of trainers!
There is no parliamentary support for no deal, a compromise will need to be found.
		
Click to expand...

My post was addressed specifically to SR - still awaiting a response.


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## IanM (Jan 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Out of Interest do you think that the EU will impose 'settled status' on British immigrants who are currently living, working and bring up families within Europe,
		
Click to expand...

both of them have already done this!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Providing expatriates have applied for and received settled status by Brexit day, and have signed up for â€˜localâ€™ taxation, theyâ€™re ok. Same hoops that a non-EU citizen has to jump through.

They will also need to sort their driving licence for a local one. However, having residencia in one EU country doesnâ€™t mean you have it, or freedom to travel, in another EU country.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that.
Lovin the way that Brits are never immigrants, always ex pats.


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## IanM (Jan 22, 2019)

Actually that term applies the same in at least 4 other languages I am aware of...


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## Mudball (Jan 22, 2019)

If it appeals to your funny side.. remember it is comedy and can offend esp if you are a Brexiteer.. 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=998773343639989


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 22, 2019)

IanM said:



			Actually that term applies the same in at least 4 other languages I am aware of...
		
Click to expand...

I always struggle with the term Ex Patriot.
Does it mean that they are no longer a patriot of the country they came from.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always struggle with the term Ex Patriot.
Does it mean that they are no longer a patriot of the country they came from.

Click to expand...

Not sure being an expatriate necessarily makes you an ex patriot...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2019)

hors limite said:



			My post was addressed specifically to SR - still awaiting a response.
		
Click to expand...

Ive replied to this matter a number of times. keep up.

Take a look at  #4,315/4322


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## Hobbit (Jan 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I always struggle with the term Ex Patriot.
Does it mean that they are no longer a patriot of the country they came from.

Click to expand...

Try a dictionary. Theyâ€™re 2 different words with different meanings.


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## JamesR (Jan 22, 2019)

Iâ€™m intrigued, with the bad weather on its way, where do we get our grit from for on the roads?


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## Hobbit (Jan 22, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Iâ€™m intrigued, with the bad weather on its way, where do we get our grit from for on the roads?
		
Click to expand...

The two largest suppliers are the salt mines in Cheshire and the mines at Boulby in North Yorkshire. Used to pass Boulby quite often. The shaft goes out to sea quite a way.


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## JamesR (Jan 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The two largest suppliers are the salt mines in Cheshire and the mines at Boulby in North Yorkshire. Used to pass Boulby quite often. The shaft goes out to sea quite a way.
		
Click to expand...

Not imported then?


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## JamesR (Jan 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Try a dictionary. Theyâ€™re 2 different words with different meanings.
		
Click to expand...

Brian, do you have any concerns about the future, as a Brit in Spain?

I saw something on tv the other day with an action group (both leave & remain), who are preparing for the future.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 22, 2019)

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/0122/1024688-france-germany-treaty/

Can't see Davros liking that much.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 22, 2019)

So now saying possibly a n arrangement to  avoid a hard border in case of no deal, so why not just have this instead of the backstop ????

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46961982


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## MegaSteve (Jan 22, 2019)

Airlines have given Barnier both barrels with regard his planned restrictions, to their businesses, in the event of Brexit...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 22, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Not imported then?
		
Click to expand...

No. The salt mines in Cheshire, Northwich, are quite fascinating. The empty tunnels are used to store all sorts of things as nothing deteriorates down there.


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## Hobbit (Jan 22, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Brian, do you have any concerns about the future, as a Brit in Spain?

I saw something on tv the other day with an action group (both leave & remain), who are preparing for the future.
		
Click to expand...

Administratively, everything is sorted. The national govt are very keen for the Brits to stay. There's 330,000 Brits registered in Spain but an estimated 750,000 in total - many tax dodgers flying under the radar.

We've been to a few meetings with national and local govt officials, who were accompanied by staff from the Consulate and HMRC. All the 'noises' are good. And the locals in the villages are wonderful.

However, for the first time in donkey's years the far right are the ruling party in Andalusia. Andalusia sees 100's of illegals landing on the southern coast every week, and that's just the ones that get caught. Petty crime is very much on the increase, with distraction pickpocketing and burglaries being main crimes. The far right are stirring. But thankfully its a historical thing between various Spanish parties - Franco is still very much hated, and politics is a bit lively at present.


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## IanM (Jan 22, 2019)

Hang on Brian...they were going to come round and kill you post Brexit surely?  I also see the boss of Faro Airport is preparing UK Nationals lines at the airport to speed it up, this in in defiance of EU Regs.   

BUT!!  Got a update of Office 365 on my laptop today.... the Pound Sterling key doesnt work!!  If I shift 3, I get #   What does MicroSoft know eh?


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## JamesR (Jan 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Administratively, everything is sorted. The national govt are very keen for the Brits to stay. There's 330,000 Brits registered in Spain but an estimated 750,000 in total - many tax dodgers flying under the radar.

We've been to a few meetings with national and local govt officials, who were accompanied by staff from the Consulate and HMRC. All the 'noises' are good. And the locals in the villages are wonderful.

However, for the first time in donkey's years the far right are the ruling party in Andalusia. Andalusia sees 100's of illegals landing on the southern coast every week, and that's just the ones that get caught. Petty crime is very much on the increase, with distraction pickpocketing and burglaries being main crimes. The far right are stirring. But thankfully its a historical thing between various Spanish parties - Franco is still very much hated, and politics is a bit lively at present.
		
Click to expand...

Good, Iâ€™m glad itâ€™s looking ok ðŸ‘


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## Hobbit (Jan 22, 2019)

IanM said:



			Hang on Brian...they were going to come round and kill you post Brexit surely?  I also see the boss of Faro Airport is preparing UK Nationals lines at the airport to speed it up, this in in defiance of EU Regs.  

BUT!!  Got a update of Office 365 on my laptop today.... the Pound Sterling key doesnt work!!  If I shift 3, I get #   What does MicroSoft know eh?
		
Click to expand...

There has been a lot of ordering of pitchforks!!

Alicante are putting in new passport controls and kit.


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## MendieGK (Jan 22, 2019)

One of the biggest brexiters James Dyson, announces heâ€™s moving the company to Singapore. 

Couldnâ€™t make it up.


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## Hobbit (Jan 22, 2019)

MendieGK said:



			One of the biggest brexiters James Dyson, announces heâ€™s moving the company to Singapore.

Couldnâ€™t make it up.
		
Click to expand...

Announces he's moving the company HQ to Singapore, inc. 2 directors. All the factories currently in the UK will remain in the UK. He also said this will not affect the taxation that the company pays in the UK, Â£95m last year. The announcement went on to say that they see the Far East as the biggest growth market, and want to be centred there. Doesn't seem unreasonable.


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## Foxholer (Jan 22, 2019)

IanM said:



			...
BUT!!  Got a update of Office 365 on my laptop today.... the Pound Sterling key doesnt work!!  If I shift 3, I get #   What does MicroSoft know eh?
		
Click to expand...

I noticed my keyboard mapping had got out of kilter with keys a short time ago too - same symptom as you plus " and @ were the other way around.

I restarted (my Laptop) and keyboard mapping is now fine.


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## JamesR (Jan 22, 2019)

Surely in this modern,electrical, global world it shouldnâ€™t matter where the HQ is?
Multinational companies donâ€™t have to move their head office to their new markets normally do they?


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## drdel (Jan 22, 2019)

MendieGK said:



			One of the biggest brexiters James Dyson, announces heâ€™s moving the company to Singapore.

Couldnâ€™t make it up.
		
Click to expand...

Dyson has stated that Brexit was NOT the reason !!


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## MendieGK (Jan 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			Dyson has stated that Brexit was NOT the reason !!
		
Click to expand...

How convenient ðŸ˜‚


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## JamesR (Jan 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			Dyson has stated that Brexit was NOT the reason !!
		
Click to expand...

In the immortal words of Mandy Rice Davies:
â€œhe would say that wouldnâ€™t he?â€


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## Stuart_C (Jan 22, 2019)

Perhaps Mr Dyson just wants to help grow Singaporeâ€™s economy now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2019)

https://news.sky.com/story/po-post-...f-twitter&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral


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## Mudball (Jan 22, 2019)

So the fearless leaders of Brexit have ensured that they wonâ€™t be affected by any deal..
Rees Mog moved his finance company to Ireland (no back stop issue here) ... and now Dyson moves to Singapore.  I hope BoJo also applies for a German passport soon.. 

.. rats leaving a sinking ship??


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## JamesR (Jan 22, 2019)

Apparently the Dyson electric cars will be made in Singapore - says a lot about his faith in Britain post brexit!


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## MegaSteve (Jan 22, 2019)

Not sure Dyson is going anywhere... Believe he is Britains biggest farmer...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 23, 2019)

Dyson has invested massivly in research and development and has created a faciility in North Wiltshire to train undergraduates in design and engineering. He has a very big design facility in Malmesbury where he employs a large number of engineering graduates. He is more than worthy of praise for his commitment to young engineers and new technology. Maybe some on here decrying him can compare their credentials with his.


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## Sweep (Jan 23, 2019)

I have to say that even in my wildest fears, I never thought I would ever see anything like this mess created by the current parliamentarians. 
Just a brief overview of recent happenings:
The Chancellor, the very man in charge of tax revenue for our nation, has a conference call with the boss of Amazon, one of the biggest tax dodging companies trading in Britain, giving him assurances that he is not in a position to make about Brexit. Seriously, if you avoid paying tax do you think you would get to chat with the Chancellor? I mean, what is going to happen if you donâ€™t do what Mr Amazon says? We will have a Â£15k tax hole to fill.
The leader of HM Opposition doesnâ€™t agree with his own shadow Brexit minister and the PM doesnâ€™t agree with hers.
5 days debate on the Withdrawal Agreement ends with the vote being cancelled because the govt is going to lose, only for another 5 days of debate one month later on the very same agreement which ends in the govt losing, as everyone knew they would. The Opposition then table a motion of no confidence in the govt that they know they canâ€™t win, resulting in a days debate and a vote they lost as everyone knew they would. So an entire week was wasted debating votes that everyone knew wouldnâ€™t be won. Apparently we have all the time in the world for such nonsense. After all we have another 9 weeks (less a few weeks for holibobs).
The PM then had 3 days to come back with Plan B. She comes back with Plan A.
In the meantime she asks the other parties for their ideas even though everyone knows she will ignore them. The Leader of the Opposition who has been moaning for two and a half years that the govt should have had cross party consultation refuses to be consulted. Unless the govt rule out no deal, which requires a deal in itself.
Everyone on the planet, except Labour and a few other oddballs in Parliament, understands that if you are undertaking a negotiation for anything, from buying a house, a car, something off eBay or with the EU, you canâ€™t negotiate if you are not prepared to walk away. Everyone knows taking away your biggest point of leverage is negotiation suicide. Itâ€™s like going into a car dealer and saying â€œI am going to buy this car, no matter what deal you offer meâ€. Itâ€™s complete madness and yet we have people in power who think itâ€™s a jolly good idea.
The media canâ€™t decide if the ports are going to be gridlocked or they are going to lose 87% of traffic. Easter will have to be cancelled because there will be a chocolate shortage (because Easter is a chocolate festival), Motherâ€™s Day is off due to a flower shortage.
MPâ€™s from all sides seem to think that democracy and the referendum result are a mere inconvenience and appear to be utterly unaware of the anger and frustration at the prospect at the destruction of a democracy that took centuries to build. They seem blissfully unaware of the loss of confidence and trust in the political process that would follow. The complete lack of mandate when no-one bothers to vote in a sham of a democracy.  They are only concerned about parliamentary deadlock, even though the nation decide 30 months ago and the debate ended then.
A former Prime Minister is briefing the EU on how to play hardball with his own nation.
Today, my MP tweets. Two and a half years ago her constituency voted overwhelmingly to leave. They told her what they wanted. Today, with just 9 weeks to go she comes up with a brainwave. A citizens assembly, so that her constituents can tell her what they want. Again. Seemingly she was happy to embrace democracy when it got her elected. Now though democracy has lost its novelty value and she will do anything to avoid doing her damned job.
I believe and I certainly hope that the people of this country and history will judge the politicians of today with the condemnation they deserve. And the same should be true on whatever side of the debate you are on. They are weak and ineffective. They are living in Cloudcuckoo Land. They lack leadership and courage. They represent everything that is wrong with Britain today and the nation we have become.
 They need to grow a pair and quick.


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## MendieGK (Jan 23, 2019)

Sony announced they are moving their European HQ to Holland because of brexit.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 23, 2019)

I'm no fan of Dyson and his gradual move east but if he was being hypocritical about Brexit then he would have moved into Europe not the Far East. Moving to Singapore doesn't protect his company from Brexit,  it's still outside the EU.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 23, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm no fan of Dyson and his gradual move east but if he was being hypocritical about Brexit then he would have moved into Europe not the Far East. Moving to Singapore doesn't protect his company from Brexit,  it's still outside the EU.
		
Click to expand...

LBC were saying this morning that its only 2 people from head office moving out there.


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## Dando (Jan 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			LBC were saying this morning that its only 2 people from head office moving out there.
		
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Letâ€™s hope they got on with each other!


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## robinthehood (Jan 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The two largest suppliers are the salt mines in Cheshire and the mines at Boulby in North Yorkshire. Used to pass Boulby quite often. The shaft goes out to sea quite a way.
		
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There is also a large mine in Carrickfergus N.I


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## User62651 (Jan 23, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I have to say that even in my wildest fears, I never thought I would ever see anything like this mess created by the current parliamentarians.
Just a brief overview of recent happenings:
The Chancellor, the very man in charge of tax revenue for our nation, has a conference call with the boss of Amazon, one of the biggest tax dodging companies trading in Britain, giving him assurances that he is not in a position to make about Brexit. Seriously, if you avoid paying tax do you think you would get to chat with the Chancellor? I mean, what is going to happen if you donâ€™t do what Mr Amazon says? We will have a Â£15k tax hole to fill.
The leader of HM Opposition doesnâ€™t agree with his own shadow Brexit minister and the PM doesnâ€™t agree with hers.
5 days debate on the Withdrawal Agreement ends with the vote being cancelled because the govt is going to lose, only for another 5 days of debate one month later on the very same agreement which ends in the govt losing, as everyone knew they would. The Opposition then table a motion of no confidence in the govt that they know they canâ€™t win, resulting in a days debate and a vote they lost as everyone knew they would. So an entire week was wasted debating votes that everyone knew wouldnâ€™t be won. Apparently we have all the time in the world for such nonsense. After all we have another 9 weeks (less a few weeks for holibobs).
The PM then had 3 days to come back with Plan B. She comes back with Plan A.
In the meantime she asks the other parties for their ideas even though everyone knows she will ignore them. The Leader of the Opposition who has been moaning for two and a half years that the govt should have had cross party consultation refuses to be consulted. Unless the govt rule out no deal, which requires a deal in itself.
Everyone on the planet, except Labour and a few other oddballs in Parliament, understands that if you are undertaking a negotiation for anything, from buying a house, a car, something off eBay or with the EU, you canâ€™t negotiate if you are not prepared to walk away. Everyone knows taking away your biggest point of leverage is negotiation suicide. Itâ€™s like going into a car dealer and saying â€œI am going to buy this car, no matter what deal you offer meâ€. Itâ€™s complete madness and yet we have people in power who think itâ€™s a jolly good idea.
The media canâ€™t decide if the ports are going to be gridlocked or they are going to lose 87% of traffic. Easter will have to be cancelled because there will be a chocolate shortage (because Easter is a chocolate festival), Motherâ€™s Day is off due to a flower shortage.
*MPâ€™s from all sides seem to think that democracy and the referendum result are a mere inconvenience and appear to be utterly unaware of the anger and frustration at the prospect at the destruction of a democracy that took centuries to build. They seem blissfully unaware of the loss of confidence and trust in the political process that would follow. The complete lack of mandate when no-one bothers to vote in a sham of a democracy.  They are only concerned about parliamentary deadlock, even though the nation decide 30 months ago and the debate ended then.
A former Prime Minister is briefing the EU on how to play hardball with his own nation.
Today, my MP tweets. Two and a half years ago her constituency voted overwhelmingly to leave. They told her what they wanted. Today, with just 9 weeks to go she comes up with a brainwave. A citizens assembly, so that her constituents can tell her what they want. Again. Seemingly she was happy to embrace democracy when it got her elected. Now though democracy has lost its novelty value and she will do anything to avoid doing her damned job.
I believe and I certainly hope that the people of this country and history will judge the politicians of today with the condemnation they deserve. And the same should be true on whatever side of the debate you are on. They are weak and ineffective. They are living in Cloudcuckoo Land. They lack leadership and courage. They represent everything that is wrong with Britain today and the nation we have become.
They need to grow a pair and quick.*

Click to expand...

Agree with most of it until the bold part.
Dont really agree with the MPs ignoring democracy, if they did they'd have just ignored the result back in 2016 and said thanks for the opinion poll but no thanks. Half the reason we're in such a muddle is because PM is trying to follow 'the will of the people' as she calls it no matter what. At 52/48 there was always going to be parliamentary gridlock compounded by May then losing a working majority through a needless GE which was done to try and make her own position stronger both to get Brexit through her way and make other Tory policy easier to get through, all because the polls gave her party a massive lead which she personally evaporated to Corbyn of all people - electorate said no thanks to May so it's our fault too.
I dont believe MPs lack courage or live in cloud cuckoo land at all either, they are very much in the middle of a harsh reality. They just disagree, you have an electorate that gave a small majority on an ill-conceived referendum (zero planning by govt for a Leave vote) against a parliament which was majority remain. Most MPs reflect their constituents views (if they dont they'll lose their job soon). For example you cant tell me every MP up here should back May's deal when every constituency voted remain, doesn't work like that. They are compromising however to leaving but with tie-ins to Customs Union and Single Market  - course that's not meeting the 'Leave means leave' mantra which is part of the issue.

Something has to give soon after 2.5+ years of BS.

However I think we'll be getting an extension to Article 50 shortly. So no resolution for another 9 months+.  Fun isn't it?


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## hors limite (Jan 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ive replied to this matter a number of times. keep up.

Take a look at  #4,315/4322
		
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 My post questioned your attitude about bumps in the road following Brexit and your " I'm alright Jack" attitude. I am pretty certain from your self congratulatory, even conceited, posts that you will be well insulated from any adverse effects. If you are going to hold such selfish views you should at least have the courage to defend them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			LBC were saying this morning that its only 2 people from head office moving out there.
		
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Is it a tax move then or is it about making it easier to set up factories in Singapore? I know in some Far Eastern countries they will look more kindly, or it's the law, upon a business if they move key aspects out there. As Dyson are mfr out in Singapore now this move, practically a paper move if only 2 people are going, may be along those lines.


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## Sweep (Jan 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Agree with most of it until the bold part.
Dont really agree with the MPs ignoring democracy, if they did they'd have just ignored the result back in 2016 and said thanks for the opinion poll but no thanks. Half the reason we're in such a muddle is because PM is trying to follow 'the will of the people' as she calls it no matter what. At 52/48 there was always going to be parliamentary gridlock compounded by May then losing a working majority through a needless GE which was done to try and make her own position stronger both to get Brexit through her way and make other Tory policy easier to get through, all because the polls gave her party a massive lead which she personally evaporated to Corbyn of all people - electorate said no thanks to May so it's our fault too.
I dont believe MPs lack courage or live in cloud cuckoo land at all either, they are very much in the middle of a harsh reality. They just disagree, you have an electorate that gave a small majority on an ill-conceived referendum (zero planning by govt for a Leave vote) against a parliament which was majority remain. Most MPs reflect their constituents views (if they dont they'll lose their job soon). For example you cant tell me every MP up here should back May's deal when every constituency voted remain, doesn't work like that. They are compromising however to leaving but with tie-ins to Customs Union and Single Market  - course that's not meeting the 'Leave means leave' mantra which is part of the issue.

Something has to give soon after 2.5+ years of BS.

However I think we'll be getting an extension to Article 50 shortly. So no resolution for another 9 months+.  Fun isn't it?

Click to expand...

I agree with much of what you say. However, I do think MPâ€™s are too focussed on parliamentary deadlock rather than enacting the result of the referendum, which after all is their duty.
I think and hope that the vast majority of the electorate are not as daft as our elected representatives think we are. We know what they are trying to do when they come up with all kinds of excuses like â€œwe need another vote but donâ€™t know what to askâ€, citizens assemblies, no deal off the table, project fear, staying in a customs union even though it means no trade deals with anyone else, leaving but not really leaving, backstop, â€œwe need to delayâ€...
If they donâ€™t want to meet their responsibilities as our elected representatives, if they donâ€™t want to abide by the manifestos they were elected on (SNP and Lib Dems aside) they should just resign and let someone else do the job.
We are 31 months into the process with 2 to go. What the hell have they been doing? If they decide to delay I hope they are met with the derision they deserve. Most if not all are not fit for purpose.
Expect a lot of deselections prior to the next GE. And expect a lot of the electorate to be disengaged, disinterested and distanced from their own nation.
Itâ€™s hard to be proud and part of your country when your vote is ignored and all you are is a cash cow for whichever party of charlatans are claiming power on any given date.


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## Sweep (Jan 23, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is it a tax move then or is it about making it easier to set up factories in Singapore? I know in some Far Eastern countries they will look more kindly, or it's the law, upon a business if they move key aspects out there. As Dyson are mfr out in Singapore now this move, practically a paper move if only 2 people are going, may be along those lines.
		
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Or maybe itâ€™s something to do with Singapore just having done a deal with the EU, as some papers are reporting.
I have little doubt this is being over egged by Dysonâ€™s detractors and the remain camp, but he is an open goal, so you canâ€™t blame them. It has to be said, James Dyson has not been the best PR for Brexit and it would have been better if he had just kept his views to himself, as his actions donâ€™t seem to match his words. For example, did he have to make this move right now?
In the words of Noel, Some might say he is actually working undercover for remain. Now there is a conspiracy theory.

Oh well, sunshine follows thunder. ðŸ˜€


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## drdel (Jan 23, 2019)

Its worth remember that it was Barnier who said that the disengagement process and future (trade, etc) talks could not operate in parallel.

Since it is patently nonsense to say that the future plans aren't influenced by the how you transition (withdraw) it obviously created the hiatus of the middle ground and by implication the NI 'backstop'. No one would ever buy a business without discussing the current state of affairs *AND* conducting the due diligence and forecasts.

If both sides to an arrangement plan on a future agreement it is stupid to have any 'stop' in the transition process.


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## Mudball (Jan 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			LBC were saying this morning that its only 2 people from head office moving out there.
		
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So said American Kraft/Modelez when they bought Cadburys... eventually shuttering.   People blame India Tata for doing same with steel and Cars.. 
They do have a strong PR.. they went for 2 people.   When everything cools down, it does not take long to move other bits as part of a 'strategic review'.  

BTW, I am not sure where they would manufacture in Singapore given it is so small and real estate is really really expensive.  I am assuming they will manufacture in Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia etc with an office in expat friendly Singapore..


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## spongebob59 (Jan 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			LBC were saying this morning that its only 2 people from head office moving out there.
		
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https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...errari-reveals-some-key-facts-on-dysons-move/


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## IanM (Jan 23, 2019)

my mate is in Malmesbury.... they are still recruiting heavily...


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## SocketRocket (Jan 23, 2019)

hors limite said:



			My post questioned your attitude about bumps in the road following Brexit and your " I'm alright Jack" attitude. I am pretty certain from your self congratulatory, even conceited, posts that you will be well insulated from any adverse effects. If you are going to hold such selfish views you should at least have the courage to defend them.
		
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So you think I am not entitled to an opinion due to my personal circumstances of which you know nothing. That's a rather closed and prejudiced view, you make a number of accusations that are not worthy of a reply.

If you want a grown up discussion then drop the immature attitude and you may get a responce. Would you use this language face to face, I somehow doubt it.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2019)

IanM said:



			my mate is in Malmesbury.... they are still recruiting heavily...
		
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As far as I understand it... R&D is based in UK; Manufacturing is based in Asia. Pretty simple really. And not really anything to do with Brexit - except for Dyson's loud views on the subject!


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## hors limite (Jan 23, 2019)

I  believe implicitly in your right to an opinion.You opined that you are content for your fellow citizens to risk a heavy price for your Brexit project, even the loss of a job. I think that this is arrogant and irresponsible especially when you yourself have revealed in earlier posts how economically impervious you will be to any downside. I invited you to defend your position,your inability to compose a coherent response tells its own story.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 23, 2019)

hors limite said:



			I  believe implicitly in your right to an opinion.You opined that you are content for your fellow citizens to risk a heavy price for your Brexit project, even the loss of a job. I think that this is arrogant and irresponsible especially when you yourself have revealed in earlier posts how economically impervious you will be to any downside. I invited you to defend your position,your inability to compose a coherent response tells its own story.
		
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I assume this was addressed to me although it doesnt say so.

Where exactly did I reveal how economically impervious I will be to any downside or take pleasure in fellow citizens to lose jobs.  You appear to be forming an opinion based on personal prejudices rather than fact which is not a good foundation for debate.

When I give my opinion on a subject then it is my considered view, I do not need to defend it to you or anyone, you can challenge it if you wish but it would be better if your challenge gave a contrary view rather than relying on some personal insults and slight of character.

Since you have not attempted to read through my posts and understand my viewpoint correctly then I feel under no obligation to reiterate it.    However a quick precey is that my preference is for a free trade agreement with the EU which would solve the Irish border issue, a payment that covered our reasonable ongoing obligations and full cooperation on security and technology.  I do not want a second referendum or to stay a member of the EU, I believe we must carry out the will of the democratic vote.  Failing this my next option is to leave without a formal exit agreement and then negotiate a series of mutually  beneficial agreements where possible.  I do not advocate anyone losing their jobs but understand the reality of business and change.  It may well be that some people will lose jobs, that happens every day and for a mirriad of reasons, just like new jobs are created every day for a mirriad of reasons, the world keeps turning and day follows night.

So, that's my condensed opinion, if you dislike it then I cant help that and unless you wish to engage in a grown up debate on the issues rather than your previous onslaught then I have nothing more to discuss with you.

Good day.


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## drdel (Jan 23, 2019)

I see that Barnier has now said he wants the UK to say what sort of future relationship it wants with the EU. Strange, 2 years ago he said the future 'deal' could not be on the table until the UK had left.

It must be easy being French and have principles: but if you don't like those they'll find some others.


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## Hobbit (Jan 23, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is it a tax move then or is it about making it easier to set up factories in Singapore? I know in some Far Eastern countries they will look more kindly, or it's the law, upon a business if they move key aspects out there. As Dyson are mfr out in Singapore now this move, practically a paper move if only 2 people are going, may be along those lines.
		
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Dyson's Chief Exec has said it will make negligible difference to there tax bill as they pay all the required taxes in each country they operate in, Â£95m in the UK in the last tax year.

Bearing in mind Dyson are in the middle of a Â£200m investment programme at a new manufacturing site(Hullavington airfield??) in the UK I hardly think Dyson is leaving the UK. People making mischief, and more project fear?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 23, 2019)

We need to keep watching this to remember what was said and promised.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Dyson's Chief Exec has said it will make negligible difference to there tax bill as they pay all the required taxes in each country they operate in, Â£95m in the UK in the last tax year.

Bearing in mind Dyson are in the middle of a Â£200m investment programme at a new manufacturing site(Hullavington airfield??) in the UK I hardly think Dyson is leaving the UK. People making mischief, and more project fear?
		
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Hullavington Airfield is an old RAF base that has been used by the Army for many years. Its located between Malmesbury and Chippenham in North Wiltshire, a few miles down the road from My Wife's family . Dyson has created a fantastic new research centre there to train undergraduate engineers and research new battery technology.


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## User62651 (Jan 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We need to keep watching this to remember what was said and promised.







Click to expand...

No thanks, why should anyone listen to that tool in 2019? Things have moved on, keep up (to coin one of your favourite expressions).


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## Sweep (Jan 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No thanks, why should anyone listen to that tool in 2019? Things have moved on, keep up (to coin one of your favourite expressions).
		
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Makes uncomfortable viewing for remainers. Doesnâ€™t it?


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## User62651 (Jan 23, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Makes uncomfortable viewing for remainers. Doesnâ€™t it?
		
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No not really, Cameron had his input and walked away. 2.5 years later his mess is yet to be untangled. Shocking legacy as PM - austerity and brexit. Brexit is the result of his gambling for personal and party gain gone wrong.


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## Hobbit (Jan 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No not really, Cameron had his input and walked away. 2.5 years later his mess is yet to be untangled. Shocking legacy as PM - austerity and brexit. Brexit is the result of his gambling for personal and party gain gone wrong.
		
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I agree but, equally, all those Remainers who still repeat the mantra, "Â£350m on the side of the bus" are just as guilty then. People can't have it both ways can they?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We need to keep watching this to remember what was said and promised.







Click to expand...

He isnâ€™t relevant anymore - he quit, walked away , he gave promises that he canâ€™t keep - not the first politician and wonâ€™t be the last , i suspect many politician has stood up and made promises but not many go through with them , if he wanted to carry out on his promise he should have stayed in charge but he left - prob because he new how much of a mare it will be


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## SocketRocket (Jan 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He isnâ€™t relevant anymore - he quit, walked away , he gave promises that he canâ€™t keep - not the first politician and wonâ€™t be the last , i suspect many politician has stood up and made promises but not many go through with them , if he wanted to carry out on his promise he should have stayed in charge but he left - prob because he new how much of a mare it will be
		
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What's that got to do with it. He was the Prime Minister when we had the referendum and these were the promises made to us that allowed us to make up our mind. Tony Blair is no longer Prime Minister  so can we rip up the Good  Friday Agreement. 
He left because he is a Remainer and can't stomache the reality that the majority voted leave, just like a mass of Remainers looking to overturn democracy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What's that got to do with it. He was the Prime Minister when we had the referendum and these were the promises made to us that allowed us to make up our mind. Tony Blair is no longer Prime Minister  so can we rip up the Good  Friday Agreement.
He left because he is a Remainer and can't stomache the reality that the majority voted leave, just like a mass of Remainers looking to overturn democracy.
		
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Are you really trying to compare and agreement written down in paper and signed by multiple political figures to one person making a vocal promise which has no legal standpoint ?

Many PMâ€™s or leader make promises in speechâ€™s when looking for a vote - how many actually get carried out
Itâ€™s a speech made by someone who has no say anymore 

Remember there was a speech that also said that for Scotland the way for them to be in the EU was staying as part of the UK - whatâ€™s happening with that then


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## Hobbit (Jan 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He isnâ€™t relevant anymore - he quit, walked away , he gave promises that he canâ€™t keep - not the first politician and wonâ€™t be the last , i suspect many politician has stood up and made promises but not many go through with them , if he wanted to carry out on his promise he should have stayed in charge but he left - prob because he new how much of a mare it will be
		
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He isn't relevant but what he said is. One of the greatest voting choices made by millions of people was made on the back of what he said, just as many were persuaded by Farage and Johnson. Whether he meant it or not, whether he was posturing or not... the 'contract' he made with the electorate is very relevant. 

Circumstances have moved on but millions of people are still holding onto his words. Until they can be persuaded either way by new 'promises' his words remain relevant.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No thanks, why should anyone listen to that tool in 2019? Things have moved on, keep up (to coin one of your favourite expressions).
		
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Because he was PM at the time and devolved the decision to the general public.  See, I managed that without a rude comment. Try it.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He isn't relevant but what he said is. One of the greatest voting choices made by millions of people was made on the back of what he said, just as many were persuaded by Farage and Johnson. *Whether he meant it or not, whether he was posturing or not... the 'contract' he made with the electorate is very relevant.*

Circumstances have moved on but millions of people are still holding onto his words. Until they can be persuaded either way by new 'promises' his words remain relevant.
		
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Wasn't it also mentioned in the leaflet that was posted through every door in the UK, at great expense to the tax payer?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He isn't relevant but what he said is. One of the greatest voting choices made by millions of people was made on the back of what he said, just as many were persuaded by Farage and Johnson. Whether he meant it or not, whether he was posturing or not... the 'contract' he made with the electorate is very relevant.

Circumstances have moved on but millions of people are still holding onto his words. Until they can be persuaded either way by new 'promises' his words remain relevant.
		
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Itâ€™s just words at the end of the day - no contract just words and many times empty words have come out of the mouths of politicians- he canâ€™t give any promises about the future when he walks away and has no say - the only thing that matters are actions especially from a politician- far too many of us have heard empty promises and â€œcontractsâ€ to be let down.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you really trying to compare and agreement written down in paper and signed by multiple political figures to one person making a vocal promise which has no legal standpoint ?

Many PMâ€™s or leader make promises in speechâ€™s when looking for a vote - how many actually get carried out
Itâ€™s a speech made by someone who has no say anymore

Remember there was a speech that also said that for Scotland the way for them to be in the EU was staying as part of the UK - whatâ€™s happening with that then
		
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Of course what he said was relevant. This was probably the biggest decision this country had to make since WW2.  Do you agree that Prime Ministers should make pledges to the public on behalf of the government on what would be enacted then it be thrown into the bin after.  REALLY!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course what he said was relevant. This was probably the biggest decision this country had to make since WW2.  Do you agree that Prime Ministers should make pledges to the public on behalf of the government on what would be enacted then it be thrown into the bin after.  REALLY!
		
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Prime Minsters have been making pledges for centuries- meaningless until backed up by actions - the â€œwordsâ€ are only relevant or meaningful to the people whos wants to believe them - for me they are worthless , they mean nothing now - they were words designed for an impact at that time a couple years ago , Cameron spoke as if he would be the one doing it - but he walked away so his words are just words

As I said Scotland had their most important vote for decades - they were told one thing - stay in UK stay in EU , was that relevant ? Or was it just words and empty promises.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Prime Minsters have been making pledges for centuries- meaningless until backed up by actions - *the â€œwordsâ€ are only relevant or meaningful to the people whos wants to believe them - for me they are worthless , they mean nothing now - they were words designed for an impact at that time a couple years ago* , Cameron spoke as if he would be the one doing it - but he walked away so his words are just words
		
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It wasn't just spoken words though LP. 

"The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.

The government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU.

This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UKâ€™s economy for every family in this country â€“ a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving.

This is your decision. *The government will implement what you decide.*"

The above was written plain as day in the leaflet that was sent out before the referendum.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...uropean-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk


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## User62651 (Jan 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree but, equally, all those Remainers who still repeat the mantra, "Â£350m on the side of the bus" are just as guilty then. People can't have it both ways can they?
		
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No they cant. Agreed. Personally I dont go on about any Leave lies. Leave won the refernedum and there is a lot of cringeworthy project fear nonsense doing the rounds largely from remainers in the media just now, fairly see through it is too. I would prefer they sort the mess out and we find some decent political leaders going forward occupying the middle centrist ground, that's all. This political chaos had been rumbling on even longer since 2012 for us up here with the Indyref before the EU ref. Wearied of it tbh. I am happy to be a citizen of the UK inside the EU like it was before the collective madness set in. Was it really so bad before, doesn't feel like it these days?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			It wasn't just spoken words though LP.

"The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.

The government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU.

This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UKâ€™s economy for every family in this country â€“ a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving.

This is your decision. *The government will implement what you decide.*"

The above was written plain as day in the leaflet that was sent out before the referendum.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...uropean-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk

Click to expand...


Itâ€™s not legally binding is it ? It is just words whether spoken or written- unless someone can tell me that all governments have carried out what they said they would and never gone back on a promise then what Cameron said is irrelevant now and whatâ€™s in a leaflet is irrelevant now

What is relevant is the people who have stayed around sorting out the mess and finding the best thing for us all or what they think is the best thing for us all - sick of all the he said she said , leave means leave blah blah blah blah - itâ€™s all just pathetic posturing from an increasingly embarrassing situation

Shame far too many would prefer to score points than anything else instead of sorting it out


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## Hobbit (Jan 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Prime Minsters have been making pledges for centuries- meaningless until backed up by actions - the â€œwordsâ€ are only relevant or meaningful to the people whos wants to believe them - for me they are worthless , they mean nothing now - they were words designed for an impact at that time a couple years ago , Cameron spoke as if he would be the one doing it - but he walked away so his words are just words

As I said Scotland had their most important vote for decades - they were told one thing - stay in UK stay in EU , was that relevant ? Or was it just words and empty promises.
		
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You can say his words are worthless, and in the context of where we are today you are right. But until millions, not one or 2, or 20 or 30, or 2000 or 3000 people who hold them as relevant are persuaded otherwise they should be acknowledged as relevant to the argument. And it is the turning of backs on those that believe them that is divisive and, on a more basic level, down right rude.

Engage with people and change their minds, don't say their beliefs are irrelevant.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s not legally binding is it ? It is just words whether spoken or written
		
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I've no idea of the legality or otherwise of it. Have we got any legal eagles on the forum that can tell us what constitutes a verbal or written contract? I was just pointing out that it was more than just something someone said during the referendum campaign.


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## Hobbit (Jan 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've no idea of the legality or otherwise of it. Have we got any legal eagles on the forum that can tell us what constitutes a verbal or written contract? I was just pointing out that it was more than just something someone said during the referendum campaign.
		
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Its not legally binding. Gina Miller certainly proved that via the courts.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2019)

If we are to ignore the words of a then prime minister. Who are we now supposd to listen to. Who's words are now relevant. I think a fair few people made there decision on what he said.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			...Gina Miller certainly proved that via the courts.
		
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Twaddle!

What (and ALL) Gina Miller 'proved' was who/what body could/couldn't invoke/revoke an action that would negate something Parliament had instigated - in that case invoking Article 50, which would revoke Parliament's ratification of the Lisbon Treaty! The ruling was that only Parliament could do that, not The Executive (Cabinet).

Neither main party stated HOW they would act to implement an 'Exit' vote. But implementing the result was committed to in both manifestos. Still not 'legally binding' though. Even items stated in The Queen's Speech are not 'legally binding' as circumstances could possibly change. 

How voters would react to the reversal of a manifesto item is something a political party would need to consider very carefully before doing so!


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## Mudball (Jan 24, 2019)

Bloody Project Fear Guardian now wants us to connect dots between US Trade deals, Brexit, Davies etc. 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...siness-lobbyists-paid-for-trip-by-david-davis

Do they really think that the HM Govt would stoop so low as allowing lower quality food into this country in the name of Free Trade..


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## drdel (Jan 24, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Bloody Project Fear Guardian now wants us to connect dots between US Trade deals, Brexit, Davies etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...siness-lobbyists-paid-for-trip-by-david-davis

Do they really think that the HM Govt would stoop so low as allowing lower quality food into this country in the name of Free Trade..
		
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I'm afraid the 'truth' and journalism only occassionally coincide . The only thing that seems to  matter to those writing and broadcasting is self enhancement.

I sometimes watch the broadcast of Parliament, by the time the media has 'reported' the same debate I'm left thinking I was on another planet!

What is worrying is that people are forming opinions based on the hyped and slanted sound bites and quotes. The Press and some politicians still talk of grounded aircraft and blocked transport when it is some months since interim agreements were made for flight clearance and trucking.


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## JamesR (Jan 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			... Who are we now supposed to listen to. Who's words are now relevant...
		
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I base a lot of my thinking, on this subject, on Dr Gregory House - "everybody lies"


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## Slime (Jan 24, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No not really, Cameron had his input and walked away. 2.5 years later his mess is yet to be untangled. Shocking legacy as PM - austerity and brexit. *Brexit is the result of his gambling for personal and party gain gone wrong.*

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No, Brexit is actually the result of a national referendum.


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## Mudball (Jan 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm afraid the 'truth' and journalism only occassionally coincide . The only thing that seems to  matter to those writing and broadcasting is self enhancement.

I sometimes watch the broadcast of Parliament, by the time the media has 'reported' the same debate I'm left thinking I was on another planet!

What is worrying is that people are forming opinions based on the hyped and slanted sound bites and quotes. The Press and some politicians still talk of grounded aircraft and blocked transport when it is some months since interim agreements were made for flight clearance and trucking.
		
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Saw this on WhatsApp.. and thought it sums up very well..


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## JamesR (Jan 24, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Saw this on WhatsApp.. and thought it sums up very well..

View attachment 26424
View attachment 26424

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I suppose that's what you expect when the BBC has been stuffed full of right wing-Tory-Brexiteers!?!


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## Mudball (Jan 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I suppose that's what you expect when the BBC has been stuffed full of right wing-Tory-Brexiteers!?!
		
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Its funny how the Beebs seems to be perceived as Left leaning or Right leaning depending on who you are talking to..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2019)

On the No Deal option remaining a 'must have' - as every negotiation must have a walk-away option.

Yes - that is absolutely true in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations - but surely in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations the 'walk away' takes you to your status quo - your fully understood and known 'as is' position - the position against which you have been assessing the 'new deal' risks and benefits.  With leaving the EU that is not the case for the UK.  If the UK walks away we *do not* go back to where we were - we go to a *new *position that we know little if anything about - indeed it is a new position about which we actually know very little and can only speculate about.  

The _No Deal _option is - if anything - surely more equivalent to the employee seeking new terms and conditions of employment - and he tells the company that if they do not agree new Ts & Cs then he will have to leave the company (or they will require him to leave) - even although he knows going into negotiations that he does not have alternative or new employment waiting for him.  He knows he will still have a mortgage and other bills to pay and a family to feed - but he is confident about getting a new job -  even though he doesn't know how long it might take him and how painful the gap might be.  Indeed he knows that he may have to cancel his golf club subs DD - and pay the early termination fee they will require - and he may even lose his house if he defaults on his mortgage payment enough times.  But he won't tell his wife that - lest she stops him in his tracks - instead he'll pretend to her that all will be OK - all will  be great.


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## Old Skier (Jan 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the No Deal option remaining a 'must have' - as every negotiation must have a walk-away option.

Yes - that is absolutely true in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations - but surely in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations the 'walk away' takes you to your status quo - your fully understood and known 'as is' position - the position against which you have been assessing the 'new deal' risks and benefits.  With leaving the EU that is not the case for the UK.  If the UK walks away we *do not* go back to where we were - we go to a *new *position that we know little if anything about - indeed it is a new position about which we actually know very little and can only speculate about. 

The _No Deal _option is - if anything - surely more equivalent to the employee seeking new terms and conditions of employment - and he tells the company that if they do not agree new Ts & Cs then he will have to leave the company (or they will require him to leave) - even although he knows going into negotiations that he does not have alternative or new employment waiting for him.  He knows he will still have a mortgage and other bills to pay and a family to feed - but he is confident about getting a new job -  even though he doesn't know how long it might take him and how painful the gap might be.  Indeed he knows that he may have to cancel his golf club subs DD - and pay the early termination fee they will require - and he may even lose his house if he defaults on his mortgage payment enough times.  But he won't tell his wife that - lest she stops him in his tracks - instead he'll pretend to her that all will be OK - all will  be great.
		
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Got to just quote the post just in case you realize how silly it reads and deleted it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is it a tax move then or is it about making it easier to set up factories in Singapore? I know in some Far Eastern countries they will look more kindly, or it's the law, upon a business if they move key aspects out there. As Dyson are mfr out in Singapore now this move, practically a paper move if only 2 people are going, may be along those lines.
		
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Dyson have said that they are doing the move to Singapore to 'future proof' the company.  Future Proof against what, is rather the easy question he should answer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Got to just quote the post just in case you realize how silly it reads and deleted it.
		
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Explain what is silly.  You clearly know a lot about negotiations so tell me what is silly please - what I have got wrong. The sneering dismissal and no actual answer to my querstion is what I come to expect when I ask a question - and I am just asking.


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## Hobbit (Jan 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the No Deal option remaining a 'must have' - as every negotiation must have a walk-away option.

Yes - that is absolutely true in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations - but surely in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations the 'walk away' takes you to your status quo - your fully understood and known 'as is' position - the position against which you have been assessing the 'new deal' risks and benefits.  With leaving the EU that is not the case for the UK.  If the UK walks away we *do not* go back to where we were - we go to a *new *position that we know little if anything about - indeed it is a new position about which we actually know very little and can only speculate about. 

The _No Deal _option is - if anything - surely more equivalent to the employee seeking new terms and conditions of employment - and he tells the company that if they do not agree new Ts & Cs then he will have to leave the company (or they will require him to leave) - even although he knows going into negotiations that he does not have alternative or new employment waiting for him.  He knows he will still have a mortgage and other bills to pay and a family to feed - but he is confident about getting a new job -  even though he doesn't know how long it might take him and how painful the gap might be.  Indeed he knows that he may have to cancel his golf club subs DD - and pay the early termination fee they will require - and he may even lose his house if he defaults on his mortgage payment enough times.  But he won't tell his wife that - lest she stops him in his tracks - instead he'll pretend to her that all will be OK - all will  be great.
		
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We know that the UK now exports more to the rest of the world than it does to Europe. That will reman an "as is." We know that the fallback position is WTO. We know that Liam Fox has said that there are over 20 countries signed up for new trade deals with a start date of Brexit Day.

We also know that France and Germany signed a deal last week that sees an EU within the EU. Tusk isn't happy about it, and nor is Juncker.

As for your last paragraph. Its as you see it. Personally, I feel its no better a story than Humpty Dumpty.


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## Old Skier (Jan 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Explain what is silly.  You clearly know a lot about negotiations so tell me what is silly please - what I have got wrong. The sneering dismissal and no actual answer to my querstion is what I come to expect when I ask a question - and I am just asking.
		
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Sneering dismissal! Where, I just think the whole post went past funny. You do know that many of the EU working directives came from the EU.

You continue to go on about not knowing what will happen if we Brexit yet you have been asked many times what a federal EU holds for Britains interests and fail to answer.

At least leavers admit they don't know what the future holds while you hide behind the EU is great curtain.


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## Dando (Jan 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the No Deal option remaining a 'must have' - as every negotiation must have a walk-away option.

Yes - that is absolutely true in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations - but surely in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations the 'walk away' takes you to your status quo - your fully understood and known 'as is' position - the position against which you have been assessing the 'new deal' risks and benefits.  With leaving the EU that is not the case for the UK.  If the UK walks away we *do not* go back to where we were - we go to a *new *position that we know little if anything about - indeed it is a new position about which we actually know very little and can only speculate about. 

The _No Deal _option is - if anything - surely more equivalent to the employee seeking new terms and conditions of employment - and he tells the company that if they do not agree new Ts & Cs then he will have to leave the company (or they will require him to leave) - even although he knows going into negotiations that he does not have alternative or new employment waiting for him.  He knows he will still have a mortgage and other bills to pay and a family to feed - but he is confident about getting a new job -  even though he doesn't know how long it might take him and how painful the gap might be.  Indeed he knows that he may have to cancel his golf club subs DD - and pay the early termination fee they will require - and he may even lose his house if he defaults on his mortgage payment enough times.  But he won't tell his wife that - lest she stops him in his tracks - instead he'll pretend to her that all will be OK - all will  be great.[/QUOTE

You're like a moth with a flame
		
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## drdel (Jan 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the No Deal option remaining a 'must have' - as every negotiation must have a walk-away option.

Yes - that is absolutely true in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations - but surely in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations the 'walk away' takes you to your status quo - your fully understood and known 'as is' position - the position against which you have been assessing the 'new deal' risks and benefits.  With leaving the EU that is not the case for the UK.  If the UK walks away we *do not* go back to where we were - we go to a *new *position that we know little if anything about - indeed it is a new position about which we actually know very little and can only speculate about. 

The _No Deal _option is - if anything - surely more equivalent to the employee seeking new terms and conditions of employment - and he tells the company that if they do not agree new Ts & Cs then he will have to leave the company (or they will require him to leave) - even although he knows going into negotiations that he does not have alternative or new employment waiting for him.  He knows he will still have a mortgage and other bills to pay and a family to feed - but he is confident about getting a new job -  even though he doesn't know how long it might take him and how painful the gap might be.  Indeed he knows that he may have to cancel his golf club subs DD - and pay the early termination fee they will require - and he may even lose his house if he defaults on his mortgage payment enough times.  But he won't tell his wife that - lest she stops him in his tracks - instead he'll pretend to her that all will be OK - all will  be great.
		
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I think you may be being deliberately disingenuous. No Deal would mean all interactions stopping, that no relationship exists nor would there be any basis for a future arrangement- this is obviously not what either side will allow.

'*No* Deal' is simply a hyped media construct. When the UK leaves the EU then the WTO rules sit ready to kick where relevant which is therefore *a* deal. 

The EU and UK have already agreed fallback positions on aircraft flight clearance and over flying. Temporary citizens rights have been agreed. Several nations like Spain and Portugal have committed to protecting UK tourist's and expats. UK businesses already comply with "CE" criteria and international protocols.

Its time to take a measured look at reality.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think you may be being deliberately disingenuous. No Deal would mean all interactions stopping, that no relationship exists nor would there be any basis for a future arrangement- this is obviously not what either side will allow.

'*No* Deal' is simply a hyped media construct. When the UK leaves the EU then the WTO rules sit ready to kick where relevant which is therefore *a* deal.

The EU and UK have already agreed fallback positions on aircraft flight clearance and over flying. Temporary citizens rights have been agreed. Several nations like Spain and Portugal have committed to protecting UK tourist's and expats. UK businesses already comply with "CE" criteria and international protocols.

Its time to take a measured look at reality.
		
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What you have effectively said is that if we do not agree a deal with the EU then we will fall back on WTO rules.  There will also possibly be 'fallbacks', 'temporary rights', all things to try and maintain a semblance of what we already have. Doesn't sound that appetising to me. Or the chap from Airbus apparently. 

Yes you can argue all day if not getting a deal with the EU is correctly classed as a No Deal. There is an argument to say that if you do not get a deal with the institutions we are leaving then there is 'No Deal'.  But if you want to add the words 'with the EU' after the words No Deal to make it absolutely truthful then OK, your prerogative. But to me it is just semantic arguments which one could suggest is the last refuge of those with no real positives for going down that path. And to me it still getting away from the fact that very few people are saying a No Deal with the EU so going back on WTO rules is the way forwards.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I base a lot of my thinking, on this subject, on Dr Gregory House - "everybody lies"
		
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And quite frankly both sides did it, but the naysayers say "your lies were bigger than ours, so we want a second vote".


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## Old Skier (Jan 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			What you have effectively said is that if we do not agree a deal with the EU then we will fall back on WTO rules.  There will also possibly be 'fallbacks', 'temporary rights', all things to try and maintain a semblance of what we already have. Doesn't sound that appetising to me. Or the chap from Airbus apparently.

Yes you can argue all day if not getting a deal with the EU is correctly classed as a No Deal. There is an argument to say that if you do not get a deal with the institutions we are leaving then there is 'No Deal'.  But if you want to add the words 'with the EU' after the words No Deal to make it absolutely truthful then OK, your prerogative. But to me it is just semantic arguments which one could suggest is the last refuge of those with no real positives for going down that path. And to me it still getting away from the fact that very few people are saying a No Deal with the EU so going back on WTO rules is the way forwards.
		
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Surley WTO rules could also be seen as a "very" temporary measure, as, according to recent press articles, government ministers have got many countries lined up with agreements. Unfortunately untill we actual leave we cannot move forward, and as every noise that is coming out of the commons and media seems that the minority will get their way anyway the whole thing seems to be turning into an irrelevance.


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## Imurg (Jan 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I base a lot of my thinking, on this subject, on Dr Gregory House - "everybody lies"
		
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And the diagnosis is never Lupus


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## SocketRocket (Jan 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Explain what is silly.  You clearly know a lot about negotiations so tell me what is silly please - what I have got wrong. The sneering dismissal and no actual answer to my querstion is what I come to expect when I ask a question - and I am just asking.
		
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When you negotiate a price for a car, a house etc then you dont really want to walk away, you want the item of interest at the best price but unless you make it clear that if you dont get a reasonable price you are prepared to walk away the chances of sucsess are almost nil. 
Regarding your logic about the status quo, its flawed. If you decided to walk away you would look to purchase another car, house etc at a better deal.  If we walked away from the EU without a deal we would look to make another deal with other countries/Trading Groups.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			S*urley WTO rules could also be seen as a "very" temporary measure, as, according to recent press articles, government ministers have got many countries lined up with agreements.* Unfortunately untill we actual leave we cannot move forward, and as every noise that is coming out of the commons and media seems that the minority will get their way anyway the whole thing seems to be turning into an irrelevance.
		
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We all know that depending in what newspaper you read will influence if you believe that is factually correct or not.  For example the Irish PM has just stated _"In a no-deal scenario, the UK won't have any trade deals with anyone. "I think it will be very difficult for them to conclude any trade deals with the question of the Irish border unresolved."_

Of course in a way he would say that and try and tie the success of deals to the Irish border issue. And I am sure that negotiations are advanced with some countries, Israel seems to be first on the list and that's great if you deal a lot with them.  But call me cynical but after reading about how difficult it is to negotiate these deals but I expect we will not be enjoying anywhere near the favourable conditions we currently have with many countries for a long time in the event of a No Deal with the EU.


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## Hobbit (Jan 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			What you have effectively said is that if we do not agree a deal with the EU then we will fall back on WTO rules.  There will also possibly be 'fallbacks', 'temporary rights', all things to try and maintain a semblance of what we already have. Doesn't sound that appetising to me. Or the chap from Airbus apparently.

Yes you can argue all day if not getting a deal with the EU is correctly classed as a No Deal. There is an argument to say that if you do not get a deal with the institutions we are leaving then there is 'No Deal'.  But if you want to add the words 'with the EU' after the words No Deal to make it absolutely truthful then OK, your prerogative. But to me it is just semantic arguments which one could suggest is the last refuge of those with no real positives for going down that path. And to me it still getting away from the fact that very few people are saying a No Deal with the EU so going back on WTO rules is the way forwards.
		
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Just a thought, from your last sentence, very few Remainers are saying a No Deal.... swap people in your sentence for Remainers. There's plenty of Leavers saying yes to No Deal.

And I would expect the Irish PM to say that. The forecasts say that Ireland will fall back into recession if there's No Deal.


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## drdel (Jan 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just a thought, from your last sentence, very few Remainers are saying a No Deal.... swap people in your sentence for Remainers. There's plenty of Leavers saying yes to No Deal.

And I would expect the Irish PM to say that. The forecasts say that Ireland will fall back into recession if there's No Deal.
		
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I agree.  It surprises me that Ireland is not pushing hard for a deal since without an agreed deal a fall back to WTO will force a hard border.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			I agree.  It surprises me that Ireland is not pushing hard for a deal since without an agreed deal a fall back to WTO will force a hard border.
		
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Ireland has said to the EU they will need Billions to bail them out if there is a no deal. Makes you wonder why they have appeared so hard nosed in looking for a solution.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 24, 2019)

Where's Noel Edmonds when you need him.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ireland has said to the EU they will need Billions to bail them out if there is a no deal. Makes you wonder why they have appeared so hard nosed in looking for a solution.
		
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The head man, Leo, has done himself no favours during this time, unless he has been posturing for a domestic audience. He has been aggressive throughout when really he needed to be working with the UK to avoid what he possibly might now end up with.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 24, 2019)

Len McCluskey tells @*BBCPM* that â€œhad Labour, had Jeremy Corbyn won the general election we would now be coming out of Europe with a proper deal that would unite the nationâ€¦thatâ€™s where weâ€™re going to and thatâ€™s what we are gonna fight forâ€.


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## Dando (Jan 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Len McCluskey tells @*BBCPM* that â€œhad Labour, had Jeremy Corbyn won the general election we would now be coming out of Europe with a proper deal that would unite the nationâ€¦thatâ€™s where weâ€™re going to and thatâ€™s what we are gonna fight forâ€.
		
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Is it 1st April already


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## Old Skier (Jan 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Len McCluskey tells @*BBCPM* that â€œhad Labour, had Jeremy Corbyn won the general election we would now be coming out of Europe with a proper deal that would unite the nationâ€¦thatâ€™s where weâ€™re going to and thatâ€™s what we are gonna fight forâ€.
		
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Labour have as many MPs fighting to ensure Brexit fails as the Torys so I wonder how that rabbit was going to come out of the hat.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 24, 2019)

I see a new centrist party being formed once all this is settled (if not before)


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I see a new centrist party being formed once all this is settled (if not before) 

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Hopefully. IMO this country is best served when the politicians are in the middle ground.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 24, 2019)

Read a piece somewhere that the Queen could block the delaying or the actual non happening of Brexit. Would be only the second time royalty has not backed the government.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Read a piece somewhere that the Queen could block the delaying or the actual non happening of Brexit. Would be only the second time royalty has not backed the government.
		
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Get Phillip to give the Remainers in the cabinet a lift home â˜º


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## Tashyboy (Jan 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Get Phillip to give the Remainers in the cabinet a lift home â˜º
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## ger147 (Jan 24, 2019)

You know it's getting serious when the Queen makes a comment on the issue...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46996180


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## Sweep (Jan 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			We know that the UK now exports more to the rest of the world than it does to Europe. That will reman an "as is." We know that the fallback position is WTO. We know that Liam Fox has said that there are over 20 countries signed up for new trade deals with a start date of Brexit Day.

We also know that France and Germany signed a deal last week that sees an EU within the EU. Tusk isn't happy about it, and nor is Juncker.

As for your last paragraph. Its as you see it. Personally, I feel its no better a story than Humpty Dumpty.
		
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To be fair though, Humpty Dumpty is a cracking story.


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## Hobbit (Jan 25, 2019)

Yesterday saw dire warnings from Airbus about moving manufacturing out of the UK in the event of a No Deal Brexit.

Today sees a Vice President of Airbus admit the announcement was issued at the insistence of the UK Government.

Project Fear? Hardly playing fair. Trust the govt?

Yesterday also saw the EU ask the member states to stop making bilateral deals with the UK, as Portugal joins Spain in signing deals with the UK. Member states tell Michel Barnier, at the Davos conference, to offer better No Deal terms.... better No Deal terms? Doesn't that constitute a Deal of some description.


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## robinthehood (Jan 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Yesterday saw dire warnings from Airbus about moving manufacturing out of the UK in the event of a No Deal Brexit.

Today sees a Vice President of Airbus admit the announcement was issued at the insistence of the UK Government.

Project Fear? Hardly playing fair. Trust the govt?

Yesterday also saw the EU ask the member states to stop making bilateral deals with the UK, as Portugal joins Spain in signing deals with the UK. Member states tell Michel Barnier, at the Davos conference, to offer better No Deal terms.... better No Deal terms? Doesn't that constitute a Deal of some description.
		
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Does that stop what Airbus says from bring true then?


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## Hobbit (Jan 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Does that stop what Airbus says from bring true then?
		
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If you're happy with that sort of behaviour I pity you. Says something about your moral compass.


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## oxymoron (Jan 25, 2019)

There is an article on the BBC news app this morning saying some EU countries want the no deal legislation to be more generous to the UK , with regards to flights and road transport .
Is this a sign of discord among the EU 27 ?  Or is it common sense coming to the fore and a realization that they do need us more than they are letting on. Playing hard ball seems to be 
detrimental to the EU as well however some on here think we should just roll over , have our belly tickled and just take what Barnier et al want to stick up us ! Keeping no deal on the table is
the only option to enable negotiation and not capitulation , Corbyn must be in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks we could talk without this option . From a man who will talk to terrorist organisations 
who negotiate with the bullet and bomb i find his stance on this absolutely disgusting.


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## robinthehood (Jan 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If you're happy with that sort of behaviour I pity you. Says something about your moral compass.
		
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What sort of behaviour? Got anything other than  insults and Google?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Yesterday saw dire warnings from Airbus about moving manufacturing out of the UK in the event of a No Deal Brexit.

*Today sees a Vice President of Airbus admit the announcement was issued at the insistence of the UK Government.*

Project Fear? Hardly playing fair. Trust the govt?

Yesterday also saw the EU ask the member states to stop making bilateral deals with the UK, as Portugal joins Spain in signing deals with the UK. Member states tell Michel Barnier, at the Davos conference, to offer better No Deal terms.... better No Deal terms? Doesn't that constitute a Deal of some description.
		
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Have you got a link for the Vice President statement 


This would be horrific for the work force there who have over years suffered with ship building and other aircraft building companies going

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...-without-a-deal-its-chief-warns-37746770.html

It canâ€™t be allowed to happen


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## Hobbit (Jan 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have you got a link for the Vice President statement


This would be horrific for the work force there who have over years suffered with ship building and other aircraft building companies going

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...-without-a-deal-its-chief-warns-37746770.html

It canâ€™t be allowed to happen
		
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Just tried finding it Phil. The VP is called Katherine ???????

EDIT: Sky News have it, but the wording is subtly different from the spin in the article I saw at silly o'clock this morning.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 25, 2019)

was on twitter :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1088541953497722881
Airbusâ€™s Senior UK Vice President Katherine Bennett let slip a key nugget of information live on _Sky News_ this afternoon as part of their anti-No Deal media blitz. When challenged over whether â€œ_the government put you up to this,â€ _after initially deflecting the question, Bennett confirmed that the Government had indeed asked them to up the ante on Project Fear:
_â€œThey did say could you make sure that you make clear the potential impact of a No Deal, and we are happy to do that because No Deal is potentially going to be catastrophic for us.â€_​


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## JamesR (Jan 25, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



_â€œThey did say could you make sure that you make clear the potential impact of a No Deal, *and we are happy to do that because No Deal is potentially going to be catastrophic for us*.â€_​

Click to expand...

The bold bit is the important part for me


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## oxymoron (Jan 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			The bold bit is the important part for me
		
Click to expand...


Potentially ????   
Sounds like they are not sure or she should have not used that language.


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## drdel (Jan 25, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			There is an article on the BBC news app this morning saying some EU countries want the no deal legislation to be more generous to the UK , with regards to flights and road transport .
Is this a sign of discord among the EU 27 ?  Or is it common sense coming to the fore and a realization that they do need us more than they are letting on. Playing hard ball seems to be
detrimental to the EU as well however some on here think we should just roll over , have our belly tickled and just take what Barnier et al want to stick up us ! Keeping no deal on the table is
the only option to enable negotiation and not capitulation , Corbyn must be in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks we could talk without this option . From a man who will talk to terrorist organisations
who negotiate with the bullet and bomb i find his stance on this absolutely disgusting.
		
Click to expand...

And what is a real surprise is that some pragmatic nations like Poland,  Spain, Italy and even France are in support: yet our 'friends' in Ireland have come down hard against moves that could help to smooth the process!


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## ger147 (Jan 25, 2019)

Not sure how big the betting market is on Politics but I had a look this morning just out of interest to see what the bookies were saying and they have leaving in March 2019 as 3/1, so far from certain according to them.

The most worrying odds I spotted was for the next prime minister - Corbyn is the 9/2 favourite.


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## Sweep (Jan 25, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			There is an article on the BBC news app this morning saying some EU countries want the no deal legislation to be more generous to the UK , with regards to flights and road transport .
Is this a sign of discord among the EU 27 ?  Or is it common sense coming to the fore and a realization that they do need us more than they are letting on. Playing hard ball seems to be 
detrimental to the EU as well however some on here think we should just roll over , have our belly tickled and just take what Barnier et al want to stick up us ! Keeping no deal on the table is
the only option to enable negotiation and not capitulation , Corbyn must be in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks we could talk without this option . From a man who will talk to terrorist organisations 
who negotiate with the bullet and bomb i find his stance on this absolutely disgusting.
		
Click to expand...

The EU seems to have played hardball from the start and the UK seemingly has done anything but. However, whilst playing hardball can get you in a good negotiating position, in the end it doesnâ€™t often result in a good deal. Often itâ€™s good to have a strong position to move back from. Something to compromise over.
A deal is only good if it works for both parties. Otherwise it will eventually fail.
The EU has form on taking negotiations to the 11th hour and beyond. I wouldnâ€™t be at all surprised if they do so this time. However, it appears that at least in some quarters of the EU they may be realising the time for hardball is over and itâ€™s time to get sensible about a deal that works for all. I certainly hope so.
Of course, if we remove the possibility of no deal then we lose the one big thing we can compromise over. All will be lost and the EU will indeed tickle our belly for decades to come. It will result in a deal that will fail all of us at some point in the future. 
Frankly itâ€™s staggering to me that some supposedly intelligent people in Parliament actually think taking no deal off the table, especially at this critical time, is a remotely credible idea. It really does beggar belief. They wouldnâ€™t buy a new kitchen like that but they think itâ€™s okay when negotiating the nationâ€™s future.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 25, 2019)

Guessing Airbus will do the right thing should they depart these shores and  pay back the millions they've received from UK taxpayers...


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## Old Skier (Jan 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Does that stop what Airbus says from bring true then?
		
Click to expand...

No, nor does the fact that Airbus received over â‚¬64 million from the EU so their might be a little bit of bias in their statement.


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## IanM (Jan 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Does that stop what Airbus says from bring true then?
		
Click to expand...

Do you know who Airbus' parent company are and how they were incorportated and funded?


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## Old Skier (Jan 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have you got a link for the Vice President statement


This would be horrific for the work force there who have over years suffered with ship building and other aircraft building companies going

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...-without-a-deal-its-chief-warns-37746770.html

It canâ€™t be allowed to happen
		
Click to expand...

Your right, but as the work force are in mainly leave areas, it's a great tactic if it comes to another referendum. As are the ones being adopted by LR and other motor manufacturers.


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## JamesR (Jan 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Guessing Airbus will do the right thing should they depart these shores and  pay back the millions they've received from UK taxpayers...
		
Click to expand...

...and will HMRC repay any taxes that Airbus have paid?


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## drdel (Jan 25, 2019)

French subsidise Airbus, heavily.


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## Sweep (Jan 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			The bold bit is the important part for me
		
Click to expand...

The word â€œpotentiallyâ€ is the important part for me.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			...and will HMRC repay any taxes that Airbus have paid?
		
Click to expand...

Might ask the same of Brussels with regard our payments over the last 40+   years...


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## oxymoron (Jan 25, 2019)

Sweep said:



			The EU seems to have played hardball from the start and the UK seemingly has done anything but. However, whilst playing hardball can get you in a good negotiating position, in the end it doesnâ€™t often result in a good deal. Often itâ€™s good to have a strong position to move back from. Something to compromise over.
A deal is only good if it works for both parties. Otherwise it will eventually fail.
The EU has form on taking negotiations to the 11th hour and beyond. I wouldnâ€™t be at all surprised if they do so this time. However, it appears that at least in some quarters of the EU they may be realising the time for hardball is over and itâ€™s time to get sensible about a deal that works for all. I certainly hope so.
Of course, if we remove the possibility of no deal then we lose the one big thing we can compromise over. All will be lost and the EU will indeed tickle our belly for decades to come. It will result in a deal that will fail all of us at some point in the future.
Frankly itâ€™s staggering to me that some supposedly intelligent people in Parliament actually think taking no deal off the table, especially at this critical time, is a remotely credible idea. It really does beggar belief. They wouldnâ€™t buy a new kitchen like that but they think itâ€™s okay when negotiating the nationâ€™s future.
		
Click to expand...

Can you stop talking sense , it doesnt go down well with some on here  .

And the thing about Airbus and French subsidies ,,, well is that not against EU policies ? One rule for one springs to mind .


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 25, 2019)

Is it that much of a stretch of imagination to see that Airbus fears might have some grounding - and do they get subsidies from the EU - no doubt , they arenâ€™t going to get any help from our government just like N Ireland havenâ€™t had much help when their industryâ€™s where ripped apart and they lost vital jobs - Airbus and their contracts are great for N Ireland , my uncles have benefitted from their work and itâ€™s vital to them - but then I suspect the people pointing fingers at them prob donâ€™t need to rely on them for jobs - maybe think of the people that do. 

I see people ignored the queens statement- itâ€™s a shame people canâ€™t act a bit like her 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46996180

*The continued emphasis on patience, friendship, a strong community focus, and considering the needs of others, are as important today as they were when the group was founded all those years ago.

"Of course, every generation faces fresh challenges and opportunities.

"As we look for new answers in the modern age, I for one prefer the tried and tested recipes, like speaking well of each other and respecting different points of view; coming together to seek out the common ground; and never losing sight of the bigger picture."*

Maybe we should let her make the choice - will prob do it without thought of herself as opposed to MPâ€™s


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## IanM (Jan 25, 2019)

I spent 2 years working for "the parent company"...not allowed to comment specifically, but I am allowed to say that this thread contains errors and missed points... and for the record I learned...

1) How anti EU many of my French colleagues were
2) Level playing fields are not part of EU practice.

...and I was fairly EU agnostic before I worked there.


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## Sweep (Jan 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			...and will HMRC repay any taxes that Airbus have paid?
		
Click to expand...

I suppose you could deduct one from the other and one pays the other the balance. ðŸ˜€
Either way, with France, the EU and the UK seemingly subsidising Airbus, it doesnâ€™t sound like itâ€™s a very profitable business. With such a lack of success they might not be the best people to listen to about whatâ€™s best for our country. Especially when the script seems to have been written by HM Government.
Still, they have to keep Spreadsheet Phil and the EU on side. Otherwise the next subsidy might not arrive.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Guessing Airbus will do the right thing should they depart these shores and  pay back the millions they've received from UK taxpayers...
		
Click to expand...

I have worked in the Aerospace industry and whatever is being said its a massive undertaking to move aircraft production sites. Its hard enough to do this within the UK as it normally requires many of the workforce moving with the site, people with the skills to do this work are not readily available, its not only the shop floor staff its the  support services which are very specialised and large, let alone the physical logistics of moving production.  Its not impossible but would it be worth that level of disruption due to some potenial temporary disruption to lorries at Dover?   

I think if we hold our nerve then there will be a realisation in the EU very soon that the time for punishment tactics is over and time for consilary talks is imperative.   These undermining tactics by the treasury to stoke up project fear are creating even more division and distrust of our politicians. More of it today from security services who wish to paint a grim picture of the possible effects on UK security if there's a no deal but they don't explain how the UK's superior  intelligence services would create big holes in EU  security if they were withdrawn.   I think its time for the game playing to stop.


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## robinthehood (Jan 25, 2019)

IanM said:



			Do you know who Airbus' parent company are and how they were incorportated and funded? 

Click to expand...

Yes thanks.


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## jp5 (Jan 25, 2019)

Threatening to shoot yourself in the foot is hardly a good negotiating tactic.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 25, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Threatening to shoot yourself in the foot is hardly a good negotiating tactic.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. Maybe there's still time for the EU to put the gun down.


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## JamesR (Jan 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree. Maybe there's still time for the EU to put the gun down.
		
Click to expand...

I assumed he was referring to us having David Davies, Dominic Raab and the new fella, as our negotiators


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## SocketRocket (Jan 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I assumed he was referring to us having David Davies, Dominic Raab and the new fella, as our negotiators
		
Click to expand...

They're not and never have been.


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## oxymoron (Jan 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes thanks.
		
Click to expand...

If you dont want to help someone get an answer , why be an arse ? I assume he asked because he doesn't know ,as do i , so why not just be civil and help someone get a clearer
understanding .I was always told if you have nothing constructive to say , dont say anything.


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## robinthehood (Jan 25, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			If you dont want to help someone get an answer , why be an arse ? I assume he asked because he doesn't know ,as do i , so why not just be civil and help someone get a clearer
understanding .I was always told if you have nothing constructive to say , dont say anything.
		
Click to expand...

Or just read all other posts first before spouting off ? Now there's a thought.


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## JamesR (Jan 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			They're not and never have been.
		
Click to expand...

Based on their results I can only agree


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## drdel (Jan 25, 2019)

I'm amused that Barnier, who has played hard ball over the backstop, is now reminding Ireland that if there is  'No Deal ' they will need a border control. Where has he been for all this time?


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## Sweep (Jan 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Based on their results I can only agree
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s the problem. They are not their results. You may wish to address your concerns to the Europe Department at No.10.


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## Sweep (Jan 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm amused that Barnier, who has played hard ball over the backstop, is now reminding Ireland that if there is  'No Deal ' they will need a border control. Where has he been for all this time?
		
Click to expand...

I am also amused that his position has changed radically during the course of this week.


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## Sweep (Jan 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Or just read all other posts first before spouting off ? Now there's a thought.
		
Click to expand...

Or come back when you are in a better mood. Or when you are prepared to be civil. Now thereâ€™s a thought.


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## drdel (Jan 25, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I am also amused that his position has changed radically during the course of this week.
		
Click to expand...

 The French have some principles: and if you don't like those they'll find some others!


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## JamesR (Jan 25, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Thatâ€™s the problem. *They are not their results.* You may wish to address your concerns to the Europe Department at No.10.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed - they didn't achieve anything, did they - useless! 

... and these are the people that Leavers want to give back control too


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## Sweep (Jan 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Agreed - they didn't achieve anything, did they - useless! 

... and these are the people that Leavers want to give back control too 

Click to expand...

As we all know the Dept for Exiting the EU were not allowed to handle or negotiate the exiting of the EU. Talks were held behind their back and it was their boss who arranged it. Maybe if they had been allowed to deal with it, maybe if ministers who believed in Brexit were allowed to do their job, we would all be in a better position now, including the EU.
I canâ€™t see how anyone can be blamed for anything if they arenâ€™t allowed to do their job.
As for giving back control. Even the shower we have in now is better than being run by the EU.


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## JamesR (Jan 25, 2019)

Are you suggesting that they are all so useless she didn't trust them to do it themselves, and had to step in and deal with it for them?


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## robinthehood (Jan 25, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Or come back when you are in a better mood. Or when you are prepared to be civil. Now thereâ€™s a thought.
		
Click to expand...

Nice


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## ger147 (Jan 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Are you suggesting that they are all so useless she didn't trust them to do it themselves, and had to step in and deal with it for them?
		
Click to expand...

No - TM is a control freak with a very small circle of people she works with, which doesn't include her cabinet.


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## drdel (Jan 25, 2019)

Those who want to Remain might want to note that the EU has stagnated, since the ECB has recently stopped the 3trillion of QE that was supporting their 'growth' and yet these numpties in Brussels are surprised!!


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## Tashyboy (Jan 25, 2019)

As first reported in the Daily Tash re Queenie gettin get involved. It seems Queenie has opened her cakehole again in a round about way at the local WI branch. She has been telling folk that " people should respect one another's views". Wonder if she has been reading this forum.
FYI she travelled in an UBER cab after hearing Phil is still driving.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Agreed - they didn't achieve anything, did they - useless! 

... and these are the people that Leavers want to give back control too 

Click to expand...

They were marginalised By May, that's why they couldn't support her Chequers and Exit Deal.  Surely you can see that?


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## User62651 (Jan 25, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			As first reported in the Daily Tash re Queenie gettin get involved. It seems Queenie has opened her cakehole again in a round about way at the local WI branch. She has been telling folk that " people should respect one another's views". *Wonder if she has been reading this forum*.
FYI she travelled in an UBER cab after hearing Phil is still driving.
		
Click to expand...

Think this forum is bad try twitter! 

Load of frustrated golfers in winter here, as soon as The Masters starts and folks can take their frustrations out slashing at a bad lie in a bunker or 5 off the tee, it'll be harmonious banter again.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm amused that Barnier, who has played hard ball over the backstop, is now reminding Ireland that if there is  'No Deal ' they will need a border control. Where has he been for all this time?
		
Click to expand...

The EU negotiators have been using a rather naive Irish Leader to frustrate Brexit. Now they and he. are realising it is a flawed strategy.


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## Foxholer (Jan 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			Those who want to Remain might want to note that the EU has stagnated, since the ECB has recently stopped the 3trillion of QE that was supporting their 'growth' and yet these numpties in Brussels are surprised!!
		
Click to expand...

A touch hypocritical of you if this is truly your view. It wasn't long ago when you were criticising the ECB for its QE policy! Of course there will be a effect when QE is turned off. A similar effect happened in UK, though perhaps better (easier) controlled purely because the BofE only had 1 economy to 'manage'.

But hey-ho, why not do what journos do and manufacture a connection between an event and the view you are trying to promote!

And 'stagnating' is hardly the appropriate word either - at least it's an exaggeration of the (slightly?) not unexpectedly negative view of both markets and, probably, the ECB itself. The IMF still predicts growth, though less than previously. It's Italy's problems that seem most likely to be problematic - as Germany seems to have recovered from last quarter.

It's only a few weeks since QE was turned off, though there was plenty of notification that it would happen, so too early to really tell what the 'medium term' effects will be.


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## drdel (Jan 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			A touch hypocritical of you if this is truly your view. It wasn't long ago when you were criticising the ECB for its QE policy! Of course there will be a effect when QE is turned off. A similar effect happened in UK, though perhaps better (easier) controlled purely because the BofE only had 1 economy to 'manage'.

But hey-ho, why not do what journos do and manufacture a connection between an event and the view you are trying to promote!

And 'stagnating' is hardly the appropriate word either - at least it's an exaggeration of the (slightly?) not unexpectedly negative view of both markets and, probably, the ECB itself. The IMF still predicts growth, though less than previously. It's Italy's problems that seem most likely to be problematic - as Germany seems to have recovered from last quarter.

It's only a few weeks since QE was turned off, though there was plenty of notification that it would happen, so too early to really tell what the 'medium term' effects will be.
		
Click to expand...


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## drdel (Jan 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



*A touch hypocritical of you if this is truly your view. It wasn't long ago when you were criticising the ECB for its QE policy*! Of course there will be a effect when QE is turned off. A similar effect happened in UK, though perhaps better (easier) controlled purely because the BofE only had 1 economy to 'manage'.

But hey-ho, why not do what journos do and manufacture a connection between an event and the view you are trying to promote!

And 'stagnating' is hardly the appropriate word either - at least it's an exaggeration of the (slightly?) not unexpectedly negative view of both markets and, probably, the ECB itself. The IMF still predicts growth, though less than previously. It's Italy's problems that seem most likely to be problematic - as Germany seems to have recovered from last quarter.

It's only a few weeks since QE was turned off, though there was plenty of notification that it would happen, so too early to really tell what the 'medium term' effects will be.
		
Click to expand...

Not being a hypocrite - Still critical of the QE as its just fuelled debt driven 'growth'.


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## Hobbit (Jan 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			Not being a hypocrite - Still critical of the QE as its just fuelled debt driven 'growth'.
		
Click to expand...

This guy has done some great Youtube vids recently.


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## Whitapers (Jan 25, 2019)

Brexit is the reality no can deny this


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## Whitapers (Jan 25, 2019)

European union should consider it final decision...and leave it for the people of UK


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## IanM (Jan 25, 2019)

I upset a Senior Civil Servant today.... on being unable to mention "no deal" without "prefixing it" with "crashing out" I congratulated her on being so suseptable to media manipulation. 

There were a few muffled giggles... and dirty looks to be honest!  But it was worth it!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 25, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Bloody Project Fear Guardian now wants us to connect dots between US Trade deals, Brexit, Davies etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...siness-lobbyists-paid-for-trip-by-david-davis

Do they really think that the HM Govt would stoop so low as allowing lower quality food into this country in the name of Free Trade..
		
Click to expand...

Yes


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 25, 2019)

Shamelessly stolen from the BBC website;

Theresa May - The only person in living memory to go to DFS and Oak Furniture Land and negotiate a full price sofa and chest of drawers!


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## Hobbit (Jan 25, 2019)




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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Are you suggesting that they are all so useless she didn't trust them to do it themselves, and had to step in and deal with it for them?
		
Click to expand...

No. I am suggesting that she didnâ€™t like what they wanted to negotiate ie Brexit, because as a remainer she doesnâ€™t believe in it. So whilst appearing to set up the Dept for Exiting the EU she also set up the Europe Department in No.10 made up of civil servants who shared her views. They negotiated behind the back of the Dept for Exiting the EU. The result was her fudge of a deal that meant we officially left but were still tied in. Things like â€œnothing is agreed until everything is agreedâ€ and â€œno deal is better than a bad dealâ€ and indeed the specifics of her entire Lancaster House speech were conveniently forgotten.
Two Brexit ministers resigned over all this. This is not speculation. Itâ€™s common knowledge.


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			No. I am suggesting that she didnâ€™t like what they wanted to negotiate ie Brexit, because as a remainer she doesnâ€™t believe in it. So whilst appearing to set up the Dept for Exiting the EU she also set up the Europe Department in No.10 made up of civil servants who shared her views. They negotiated behind the back of the Dept for Exiting the EU. The result was her fudge of a deal that meant we officially left but were still tied in. Things like â€œnothing is agreed until everything is agreedâ€ and â€œno deal is better than a bad dealâ€ and indeed the specifics of her entire Lancaster House speech were conveniently forgotten.
Two Brexit ministers resigned over all this. This is not speculation. Itâ€™s common knowledge.
		
Click to expand...

What a load of conspiratorial theory twaddle!


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			...This is not speculation. Itâ€™s common knowledge.
		
Click to expand...

You mean, you were there!?!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			What a load of conspiratorial theory twaddle!
		
Click to expand...

When Davis and Raab resigned they indicated they had been undermined and what was presented was not what they had been negotiating.

This appears to support that premise: https://www.ft.com/content/fef0e51c-8300-11e8-96dd-fa565ec55929


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## User62651 (Jan 26, 2019)

If Leave want to win hearts and minds and take on board HMs words about 'finding the middle ground' they need to stop giving a media platform to this guy Mark Francois -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...ancois-accuses-airbus-boss-of-german-bullying

Make your political point but the last bit...really?


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## Old Skier (Jan 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			If Leave want to win hearts and minds and take on board HMs words about 'finding the middle ground' they need to stop giving a media platform to this guy Mark Francois -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...ancois-accuses-airbus-boss-of-german-bullying

Make your political point but the last bit...really?

Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more, the man is all that is wrong with many who are elected, but on the reverse,  remainers should finally accept the referendum result and agree to the UK leaving the EU whether it happens to be on a deal or not. If the politicians can't reach an agreement in parliament we should just leave.


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			You mean, you were there!?!
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t be silly. Taking the mickey does not mean you are right.
I mean it was widely reported in the media and in the resignation letters and subsequent interviews from the ministers themselves.
TBH, I am not sure how you missed this. May I suggest you read up on stuff before trying to debate something you seem to know nothing about?


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Donâ€™t be silly. Taking the mickey does not mean you are right.
I mean it was widely reported in the media and in the resignation letters and subsequent interviews from the ministers themselves.
TBH, I am not sure how you missed this. May I suggest you read up on stuff before trying to debate something you seem to know nothing about?
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™ve read it, Iâ€™ve seen and heard them.
I donâ€™t feel either was capable of the job they were given.
Whether May undermined them or not, I doubt either could have come up with anything & seriously donâ€™t believe Davies wanted too.


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			What a load of conspiratorial theory twaddle!
		
Click to expand...

Really?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-41308081

https://news.sky.com/story/who-is-o...on-whose-shoulders-brexit-deal-rests-11525917

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-theresa-may-david-davis-boris-a7952756.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...vis-davis-resignation-letter-in-full-11430720

I will leave you to do your own further research. But if you believe the Brexit ministers were in control of the entire process, why do you think they resigned?


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Iâ€™ve read it, Iâ€™ve seen and heard them.
I donâ€™t feel either was capable of the job they were given.
Whether May undermined them or not, I doubt either could have come up with anything & seriously donâ€™t believe Davies wanted too.
		
Click to expand...

I guess we will never know if they were capable. May undermining them prevented them from doing their job.
Who would you have given the job to?


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

I honestly donâ€™t think anyone I say would be classed as acceptable because they would probably be a remainer. Largely because I donâ€™t believe anyone amongst the leavers in the cabinet is capable.
Perhaps only Gove amongst them could have done it!


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I honestly donâ€™t think anyone I say would be classed as acceptable because they would probably be a remainer. Largely because I donâ€™t believe anyone amongst the leavers in the cabinet is capable.
Perhaps only Gove amongst them could have done it!
		
Click to expand...

But Gove was toxic at the time and has only just regained favour because of a good speech in the Commons.
I guess thatâ€™s the problem. How can anyone negotiate for something they donâ€™t want and feels will be ultimately damaging?
Brexit is such a big issue, I believe it was a mistake for the Tories to elect a remainer as leader at least until leaving was concluded. Though most of the parliamentary party is remain, it is at odds with the electorate and their supporters. They should have had the courage to elect a leaver to get this done. They had a remain leader resign and replaced him with a remain leader. The result of their mistake is this halfway house mess where no-one in Parliament can agree and a very possible hemorrhaging of support for their party across the country.


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

Of course if itâ€™s hard to find a capable Brexiteer to take the job of negotiations how the hell do you find one who could be PM?
...and please donâ€™t suggest that disaster that is Boris Johnson!


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## drdel (Jan 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Couldn't agree more, the man is all that is wrong with many who are elected, but on the reverse,  remainers should finally accept the referendum result and agree to the UK leaving the EU whether it happens to be on a deal or not. *If the politicians can't reach an agreement in parliament we should just leave*.
		
Click to expand...

The 'Politicians' have had at least 4 bites at it....

1. They voted and agreed to hold a referendum.

2. They agreed to implement the result.

3. They discussed and voted to activate Article 50.

4. They held a GE.


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Of course if itâ€™s hard to find a capable Brexiteer to take the job of negotiations how the hell do you find one who could be PM?
...and please donâ€™t suggest that disaster that is Boris Johnson!
		
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Again, you canâ€™t blame someone for not doing their job if they are not allowed to do it. I am afraid we simply canâ€™t say the Brexiteers werenâ€™t capable. We were never given the chance to find out. I think Davis was on the right track. He was polite and calm in the face of Barnier who was extremely critical of the UK in public and even in press conferences with Davis at his side. He seemed to know what he wanted but he was sidelined by No.10. In the end it turned out he had hardly met Barnier in the weeks leading to his resignation. Robbins from No.10 had all but taken over.
To look at it from the opposing view, would anyone say that Mrs. May has done a good job? Would any other remainers have done better?
At least with a leaver as leader the party would have been in tune with more of the electorate and their supporters.


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			...
To look at it from the opposing view, would anyone say that Mrs. May has done a good job? Would any other remainers have done better?
At least with a leaver as leader the party would have been in tune with more of the electorate and their supporters.
		
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No, May is a disaster!
I donâ€™t believe anyone amongst the Tories would have been capable of doing a better job either.

I donâ€™t think anyone in parliament could get these negotiations done well, after all, weâ€™re always going to lose them as we are trying to play a losing hand.


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

Also, I donâ€™t understand why it matters which side of the referendum the leader stands. Isnâ€™t the job of all MPs to do the best for all of the people of the UK?


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Really?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-41308081

https://news.sky.com/story/who-is-o...on-whose-shoulders-brexit-deal-rests-11525917

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-theresa-may-david-davis-boris-a7952756.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...vis-davis-resignation-letter-in-full-11430720

I will leave you to do your own further research. But if you believe the Brexit ministers were in control of the entire process, why do you think they resigned?
		
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If you wish to interpret those articles in your own way, I'll not stop you. But my statement still holds true!

PS: Check my sig!


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			When Davis and Raab resigned they indicated they had been undermined and what was presented was not what they had been negotiating.

This appears to support that premise: https://www.ft.com/content/fef0e51c-8300-11e8-96dd-fa565ec55929

Click to expand...

Not a subscriber to FT (I think I've mentioned that to you before!) so can't check it out.

I also believe May probably 'undermined' negotiators - certainly when she imposed the Chequers Plan. That doesn't mean she *sabotaged* negotiations, which is what Sweep seems to be suggesting!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Also, I donâ€™t understand why it matters which side of the referendum the leader stands. Isnâ€™t the job of all MPs to do the best for all of the people of the UK?
		
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It's also their job to enact the people's decision when you asked them for it


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It's also their job to enact the people's decision when you asked them for it
		
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In the best interests of the whole population


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			In the best interests of the whole population
		
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But 48% don't understand what's good for them


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But 48% don't understand what's good for them
		
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You mean that 4% of leavers have changed their minds?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			You mean that 4% of leavers have changed their minds?
		
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Yes, theyre now really mad for Brexit


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, theyre now really mad for Brexit
		
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Rabid even


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Rabid even
		
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Maybe, maybe not. Just like Jezza.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But 48% don't understand what's good for them
		
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Really poor generic statement and even more so when you have constantly complained about SILH and his generic insulting statements.


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe, maybe not. Just like Jezza.
		
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Thatâ€™s one of the reasons why Corbin is so bad, he is either maybe or maybe not, seems he canâ€™t make up his mind (despite being a lifelong leaver)!


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really poor generic statement and even more so when you have constantly complained about SILH and his generic insulting statements.
		
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Also when you take into account the fact that remainers are the only ones who know what theyâ€™ll get if their side had won the referendum. 
The status quo!


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## User62651 (Jan 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Couldn't agree more, the man is all that is wrong with many who are elected, but on the reverse,  remainers should finally accept the referendum result and agree to the UK leaving the EU whether it happens to be on a deal or not. If the politicians can't reach an agreement in parliament* we should just leave*.
		
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Dont think you can use the word just as if it was like saying bye and closing a door behind you. Divorce is pretty messy in 90% of cases.
We need to have close ties with those we are leaving and a future relationship with them, of some kind.
It was never going to be a clean break, cant be.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Also when you take into account the fact that remainers are the only ones who know what theyâ€™ll get if their side had won the referendum.
The status quo!
		
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Steady on they will get creative with their emoji language ðŸ‘‹ðŸ†


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Steady on they will get creative with their emoji language ðŸ‘‹ðŸ†
		
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Yeah ðŸš ðŸŽ¡â˜Žï¸, I know exactly what youâ€™re talking about ðŸ§±ðŸ¯ðŸš´â€â™€ï¸ðŸ!?!


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## chrisd (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Also when you take into account the fact that remainers are the only ones who know what theyâ€™ll get if their side had won the referendum.
The status quo!
		
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Do they though?  Changes were in the pipeline, did everyone know what they were planning?


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## harpo_72 (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Yeah ðŸš ðŸŽ¡â˜Žï¸, I know exactly what youâ€™re talking about ðŸ§±ðŸ¯ðŸš´â€â™€ï¸ðŸ!?!
		
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Just go with the flow and accept the ðŸ•ðŸ’©


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Do they though?  Changes were in the pipeline, did everyone know what they were planning?
		
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You donâ€™t mean Turkey joining do you?


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Not a subscriber to FT (I think I've mentioned that to you before!) so can't check it out.

I also believe May probably 'undermined' negotiators - certainly when she imposed the Chequers Plan. That doesn't mean she *sabotaged* negotiations, which is what Sweep seems to be suggesting!
		
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Oh, so not â€œa load of conspiratorial theory twaddle!â€œ then?
Now you can talk nonsense about what people said or didnâ€™t say in a verbal discussion where it canâ€™t be proved or otherwise but when itâ€™s in writing it you need to quote people correctly. Please show me where I said she â€œsabotagedâ€ negotiations.


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			No, May is a disaster!
I donâ€™t believe anyone amongst the Tories would have been capable of doing a better job either.

I donâ€™t think anyone in parliament could get these negotiations done well, after all, weâ€™re always going to lose them as we are trying to play a losing hand.
		
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We are trying to play a losing hand by negotiating the way we have. Someone who believes in Brexit would have negotiated differently.
The goal of the negotiations is to find a deal that works for all. There should be no winners or losers though I am sure there will have to be compromises on both sides.
I am getting the impression that you are a non-Tory remainer. I do think its inevitable that your view is â€œcloudedâ€ (for want of a better word) by your political view. Fair enough. But I doubt that there could have been any result to the negotiations that would have been satisfactory to you other than us not leaving, sparking a General Election.


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			You donâ€™t mean Turkey joining do you?
		
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I think he means a European Army. You know, that small thing that we were told pre-ref would never happen.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I think he means a European Army. You know, that small thing that we were told pre-ref would never happen.
		
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The EU donâ€™t have control over the UK armed Forces and never would - itâ€™s just words , itâ€™s never going to happen - lots and lots of hurdles and laws in the way. Itâ€™s just never going to happen. There can be exercises etc etc but our Armed Forces will be under the control of our government.


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I think he means a European Army. You know, that small thing that we were told pre-ref would never happen.
		
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Sounds like project fear to me


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			We are trying to play a losing hand by negotiating the way we have. Someone who believes in Brexit would have negotiated differently.
The goal of the negotiations is to find a deal that works for all. There should be no winners or losers though I am sure there will have to be compromises on both sides.
I am getting the impression that you are a non-Tory remainer. I do think its inevitable that your view is â€œcloudedâ€ (for want of a better word) by your political view. Fair enough. But I doubt that there could have been any result to the negotiations that would have been satisfactory to you other than us not leaving, sparking a General Election.
		
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Youâ€™re right, Iâ€™m a non-Tory remainer!
Agreed, I donâ€™t think anything will keep me happy, save for remaining.
But given a choice of leaving outright or leaving with the May deal, Iâ€™ll take no deal.
Her deal is just staying without the benefits of staying. Which is just ridiculous!


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## harpo_72 (Jan 26, 2019)

So is being a non Tory an issue? 
Also can remainers and leavers really be in the same political party? Seriously different fundamental beliefs.


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Oh, so not â€œa load of conspiratorial theory twaddle!â€œ then?
Now you can talk nonsense about what people said or didnâ€™t say in a verbal discussion where it canâ€™t be proved or otherwise but when itâ€™s in writing it you need to quote people correctly. Please show me where I said she â€œsabotagedâ€ negotiations.
		
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As per your 2nd sentence, first show me where I stated you '*said' *that. My words were 'seems to be suggesting'.

You are posting twaddle - again! Please desist!

Btw. To clarify what I meant by May 'probably undermined' - as, on re-reading it, I can see how it could be misinterpreted as deliberately so - the simple fact that she intervened with the Chequers Plan overruling the negotiators, weakened (undermined) their negotiating position. But I don't believe she had any intention of sabotaging them. Do you? That seems to be the implication of this, especially the bit in bold...



Sweep said:



			No. *I am suggesting that she didnâ€™t like what they wanted to negotiate ie Brexit, because as a remainer she doesnâ€™t believe in it. *So whilst appearing to set up the Dept for Exiting the EU she also set up the Europe Department in No.10 made up of civil servants who shared her views. They negotiated behind the back of the Dept for Exiting the EU. The result was her fudge of a deal that meant we officially left but were still tied in....
		
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A pretty typical 'conspiracy theory' imo - the word 'suggesting' being indicative!


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## Hobbit (Jan 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The EU donâ€™t have control over the UK armed Forces and never would - itâ€™s just words , itâ€™s never going to happen - lots and lots of hurdles and laws in the way. Itâ€™s just never going to happen. There can be exercises etc etc but our Armed Forces will be under the control of our government.
		
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*Have a look at how the current EU Security and Defence policy(CSDP) works. Google it and then you can't say its spin. And see how many countries those missions have operated in since since its creation in 2000.*

security-defence

Basically, as it currently stands, if a country agrees to send troops on an EU security mission they may be commanded by a senior officer from another country. Nowt wrong with that, common sense really. However, and this is the important part, if the focus of the mission shifts or is extended the EU Security and Defence commissioner doesn't have to ask the member states for permission to shift the focus or extend the mission. Have a look at the changes already in place in the policy, courtesy of the Lisbon Treaty, and covered in Article 44 TUE.

As for the future EU army. Will it, won't it happen? First of all, its in Juncker's most recent state of the union address. Secondly, both Merkel and Macron want it. Thirdly, if you were living in Estonia - name any small country that has 2 tanks, 1 aircraft and a couple of hundred troops would you support the creation of a massive army to provide defence? The fourth point, which I haven't found any corroborating evidence for, is part of the treaty France and Germany signed this week would see France providing the Commander-in-Chief for an EU army. Juncker and Tusk aren't happy about that, and there's already rumbles that that aspect won't happen. I've only seen one report of that, and nothing since.

So "its never going to happen..." It already has.


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			...
Also can remainers and leavers really be in the same political party? Seriously different fundamental beliefs.
		
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They certainly can! And are! UKIP aside, Leave/Remain is not the main reason MPs joined their party.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*Have a look at how the current EU Security and Defence policy(CSDP) works. Google it and then you can't say its spin. And see how many countries those missions have operated in since since its creation in 2000.*

security-defence

Basically, as it currently stands,* if a country agrees to send troops on an EU security mission they may be commanded by a senior officer from another country. *Nowt wrong with that, common sense really. However, and this is the important part, if the focus of the mission shifts or is extended the EU Security and Defence commissioner doesn't have to ask the member states for permission to shift the focus or extend the mission. Have a look at the changes already in place in the policy, courtesy of the Lisbon Treaty, and covered in Article 44 TUE.

As for the future EU army. Will it, won't it happen? First of all, its in Juncker's most recent state of the union address. Secondly, both Merkel and Macron want it. Thirdly, if you were living in Estonia - name any small country that has 2 tanks, 1 aircraft and a couple of hundred troops would you support the creation of a massive army to provide defence? The fourth point, which I haven't found any corroborating evidence for, is part of the treaty France and Germany signed this week would see France providing the Commander-in-Chief for an EU army. Juncker and Tusk aren't happy about that, and there's already rumbles that that aspect won't happen. I've only seen one report of that, and nothing since.

So "its never going to happen..." It already has.
		
Click to expand...

Highlighted bit - been happening for years in NATO exercises or conflicts etc - Many Nations Under Joint Operations.

And been told by people in various high roles in defence both civil servants and Military- the UK Armed Forces will always be under overall control by the UK government - many laws that keep it that way regardless what the EU security blah blah may say


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## chrisd (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			You donâ€™t mean Turkey joining do you?
		
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No, that'll not happen


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## harpo_72 (Jan 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			They certainly can! And are! UKIP aside, Leave/Remain is not the main reason MPs joined their party.
		
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But itâ€™s not working ...


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			But itâ€™s not working ...
		
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Er. Please explain what you mean! What's not working?


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## harpo_72 (Jan 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er. Please explain what you mean! What's not working?
		
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They are requiring the whip, or in fighting with each other. If they all believed in the one goal, they would have delivered it.


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## Old Skier (Jan 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And been told by people in various high roles in defence both civil servants and Military-
		
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You move in high places.

I give you Desert Storm and Desert Shield to let you reconsider your answer, and as an aside, the FBG during the Cold War was commanded by the Americans.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 26, 2019)

Anyone claiming that a certain decision can never happen is deluding themselves. Unlikely is an option but never doesn't exist.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You move in high places.
*
I give you Desert Storm and Desert Shield to let you reconsider your answer, and as an aside, the FBG during the Cold War was commanded by the Americans.*

Click to expand...

How does that change anything ? It was still "UK Armed Forces" involved within Joint Operations


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## Old Skier (Jan 26, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Anyone claiming that a certain decision can never happen is deluding themselves. Unlikely is an option but never doesn't exist.
		
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Especially when the leaders of France and Germany have already stated along with a move towards Federalisation their main aims for the EU.


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## Old Skier (Jan 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How does that change anything ? It was still "UK Armed Forces" involved within Joint Operations
		
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I believe you and your high ranking mates said that over all control was the U.K. Government. I am just pointing out that when forces have been committed they are under the overall command of whoever has been designated as commander on the ground and they don't necessarily have to be or, have been British.



Liverpoolphil said:



			Highlighted bit - been happening for years in NATO exercises or conflicts etc - Many Nations Under Joint Operations.

And been told by people in various high roles in defence both civil servants and Military- the UK Armed Forces will always be under overall control by the UK government - many laws that keep it that way regardless what the EU security blah blah may say
		
Click to expand...


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So is being a non Tory an issue? 
Also can remainers and leavers really be in the same political party? Seriously different fundamental beliefs.
		
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Being a non-Tory is not an issue.
Both Labour and the Tories have leavers and remainers.
Itâ€™s one issue, albeit very large. Traditionally the parties are separated by belief in socialism or capitalism which are much bigger differences. The hope is that on the EU issue is resolved they can get back to normal.


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			They are requiring the whip, or in fighting with each other. If they all believed in the one goal, they would have delivered it.
		
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There's 650 of them! It would be ridiculous to believe that all had the same opinion (well, pair of opinions as it's the Opposition's role to oppose legislation) about every item of legislation/government business!

And as *delegates,* as opposed to *representatives *of their electorates, their individual opinions may need action by Whips to get legislation through!

This is actually an area where, I believe, The House of Lords is 'more honest' than The Commons. While there are Whips in HoL, their role is markedly different to Whips in The Commons. And Lords are generally much more 'independent'.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I believe you and your high ranking mates said that over all control was the U.K. Government. I am just pointing out that when forces have been committed they are under the overall command of whoever has been designated as commander on the ground and they don't necessarily have to be or, have been British.
		
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You are talking about operations or exercises or conflicts etc - as I have already said thatâ€™s been happening for decades under NATO or the UN - it doesnâ€™t mean that the UK Forces are no longer under government control


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## MegaSteve (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Being a non-Tory is not an issue.
Both Labour and the Tories have leavers and remainers.
Itâ€™s one issue, albeit very large. Traditionally the parties are separated by belief in socialism or capitalism which are much bigger differences. The hope is that on the EU issue is resolved they can get back to normal.
		
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Been that long I am not sure we'll remember what 'normal' was...


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			As per your 2nd sentence, first show me where I stated you '*said' *that. My words were 'seems to be suggesting'.

You are posting twaddle - again! Please desist!

Btw. To clarify what I meant by May 'probably undermined' - as, on re-reading it, I can see how it could be misinterpreted as deliberately so - the simple fact that she intervened with the Chequers Plan overruling the negotiators, weakened (undermined) their negotiating position. But I don't believe she had any intention of sabotaging them. Do you? That seems to be the implication of this, especially the bit in bold...



A pretty typical 'conspiracy theory' imo - the word 'suggesting' being indicative!
		
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And I am the one posting twaddle!
You say I suggested May sabotaged the negotiations when I did no such thing. I do not believe May sabotaged the negotiations. I never said she did. This is a miserable attempt at deflection because you canâ€™t defend your own post and you canâ€™t show me where I said or suggested May sabotaged anything. I never used the word.
You are the one posting twaddle please desist.
You criticise me for using the word â€œsuggestingâ€ after using it yourself.
Big tip: when you have dug yourself into a hole, stop digging.


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I believe you and your high ranking mates said that over all control was the U.K. Government. I am just pointing out that when forces have been committed they are under the overall command of whoever has been designated as commander on the ground and they don't necessarily have to be or, have been British.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Highlighted bit - been happening for years in NATO exercises or conflicts etc - Many Nations Under Joint Operations.

And been told by people in various high roles in defence both civil servants and Military- the UK Armed Forces will always be under overall control by the UK government - many laws that keep it that way regardless what the EU security blah blah may say
		
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Seems to me that you are 'arguing' over semantics! And are both correct, but about slightly different things!

When troops etc are, or are preparing/ready to be, in action they are under the control of the designated Commander, wherever that person comes from.

UK Government is quite entitled to withdraw UK troops from 'campaigns', so indeed has 'overall' control of them!


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Youâ€™re right, Iâ€™m a non-Tory remainer!
Agreed, I donâ€™t think anything will keep me happy, save for remaining.
But given a choice of leaving outright or leaving with the May deal, Iâ€™ll take no deal.
Her deal is just staying without the benefits of staying. Which is just ridiculous!
		
Click to expand...

Amazing how the Brexit issue can have people from opposing polical beliefs agreeing with each other. I agree with your post.


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## Sweep (Jan 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			They are requiring the whip, or in fighting with each other. If they all believed in the one goal, they would have delivered it.
		
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Sounds like an advert for a UKIP government.


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			And I am the one posting twaddle!
You say I suggested May sabotaged the negotiations when I did no such thing. I do not believe May sabotaged the negotiations. I never said she did. This is a miserable attempt at deflection because you canâ€™t defend your own post and you canâ€™t show me where I said or suggested May sabotaged anything. I never used the word.
You are the one posting twaddle please desist.
You criticise me for using the word â€œsuggestingâ€ after using it yourself.
Big tip: when you have dug yourself into a hole, stop digging.
		
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More twaddle, that's becoming tedious to refute!

I posted that you *seem to be* suggesting she sabotaged.... Kindly re-read! An apology for your selective quote would be in order! You didn't actually deny it, so please explain what you really meant in that post!

Kindly refer to your own tip - an appropriate word!

Btw. I agree with your first sentence!


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## Old Skier (Jan 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are talking about operations or exercises or conflicts etc -
		
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Which as far as I am concerned is the only time it matters.

 Who/what is in command can have a huge difference in your operational procedures and rules of engagement which is why, in the former Yugoslavia there was a huge sigh of relief when the blue and white was binned and the British Army started operating under NATO.


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## JamesR (Jan 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Amazing how the Brexit issue can have people from opposing polical beliefs agreeing with each other. I agree with your post.
		
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Ok, thatâ€™s my position.
But what about you; which to you is the lesser of two evils: deal or remain (apologies if already stated, I either missed it or forgot)?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really poor generic statement and even more so when you have constantly *complained about SILH and his generic insulting statements.*

Click to expand...

I try very hard to avoid making any generic or specific insulting statement directed towards any individual or indeed group of individuals.  That I think the *decision *to leave the EU is a mad and potentially extremely damaging one for our country, does not mean or even imply that I think any individual who voted to leave is mad (or indeed potentially extremely dangerous  ).  However I know that it suits the agenda of some who voted to leave to suggest that it does.  Because we Remoaners think that all Leavers are thick racists - right?  Actually wrong.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really poor generic statement and even more so when you have constantly complained about SILH and his generic insulting statements.
		
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For my part we were having a bit of light hearted banter. Why don't you grow up.


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## Dando (Jan 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I try very hard to avoid making any generic or specific insulting statement directed towards any individual or indeed group of individuals.  That I think the *decision *to leave the EU is a mad and potentially extremely damaging one for our country, does not mean or even imply that I think any individual who voted to leave is mad (or indeed potentially extremely dangerous  ).  However I know that it suits the agenda of some who voted to leave to suggest that it does.  Because we Remoaners think that all Leavers are thick racists - right?  Actually wrong.
		
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Maybe you need to harder as youâ€™ve done a great job insulting those whose opinion is different to yours


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## Old Skier (Jan 26, 2019)

Well I suppose using the word "potential " is at least starting to admit that it might not all be doom and gloom.

Have you considered what the "potential " of a federal Europe may have on the peace and stability on a paranoid Russian state.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I try very hard to avoid making any generic or specific insulting statement directed towards any individual or indeed group of individuals.  That I think the *decision *to leave the EU is a mad and potentially extremely damaging one for our country, does not mean or even imply that I think any individual who voted to leave is mad (or indeed potentially extremely dangerous  ).  However I know that it suits the agenda of some who voted to leave to suggest that it does.  Because we Remoaners think that all Leavers are thick racists - right?  Actually wrong.
		
Click to expand...

I never mentioned you and neither do I in open posts. I have only ever replied to your postings directly to you. LP is  is being childish by promoting animosity between us that doesn't exist.


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It's also their job to enact the people's decision when you asked them for it
		
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Only if they commit to doing so either beforehand (which they didn't) or subsequently (which they did).



SocketRocket said:



			For my part we were having *a bit of light hearted banter*. *Why don't you grow up*.
		
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'Light hearted banter' mode didn't last long then! Shame.


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## drdel (Jan 26, 2019)

Meanwhile the EU state that negotiations are over and the 'deal' is THE deal.

Except that Juncker has now been reported to have told the PM that if the UK will agree to a Customs Union he will renegotiate the 'backstop'.

So he's say HE will renegotiate! Except of course that as part of a customs union there would be no requirement for customs / border check. Does the guy live on this planet.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Only if they commit to doing so either beforehand (which they didn't) or subsequently (which they did).


'Light hearted banter' mode didn't last long then! Shame.
		
Click to expand...

With the original poster Yes. With someone else looking to score a silly point No.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2019)

drdel said:



			Meanwhile the EU state that negotiations are over and the 'deal' is THE deal.

Except that Juncker has now been reported to have told the PM that if the UK will agree to a Customs Union he will renegotiate the 'backstop'.

So he's say HE will renegotiate! Except of course that as part of a customs union there would be no requirement for customs / border check. Does the guy live on this planet.
		
Click to expand...

And we would not be able to make our own trade deals and accept EU laws and the UCJ.


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## Old Skier (Jan 26, 2019)

drdel said:



			Meanwhile the EU state that negotiations are over and the 'deal' is THE deal.

Except that Juncker has now been reported to have told the PM that if the UK will agree to a Customs Union he will renegotiate the 'backstop'.

So he's say HE will renegotiate! Except of course that as part of a customs union there would be no requirement for customs / border check. Does the guy live on this planet.
		
Click to expand...

He'll say one thing, someone else will say something else but unless France and Germany agree and obviously the all important Irish fellow it's not going to happen, and then, they will all say something different tomorrow.

Been going on for weeks like that.


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And we would not be able to make our own trade deals and accept EU laws and the UCJ.
		
Click to expand...

I agree about the inability to make our own trade deals (seems a reasonable compromise imo as WTO rules would apply to non-EU countries until EU negotiates a trade deal). But where have you got the requirement to accept EU laws and the supremacy of the* E*CJ?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I agree about the inability to make our own trade deals (seems a reasonable compromise imo as WTO rules would apply to non-EU countries until EU negotiates a trade deal). But where have you got the requirement to accept EU laws and the supremacy of the* E*CJ?
		
Click to expand...

Surely if we are part of the customs union then we would have to accept the rules that control it, these rules are adjudicated by the ECJ


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely if we are part of the customs union then we would have to accept the rules that control it, these rules are adjudicated by the ECJ
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. But only in relation to issues relating to The Customs Union. Your post didn't restrict it to that!

And, presumably, you 'forgot' to restrict the requirement to be controlled by EU laws to those concerning the Customs Union also.

You are normally a bit more precise than that!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Agreed. But only in relation to issues relating to The Customs Union. Your post didn't restrict it to that!

And, presumably, you 'forgot' to restrict the requirement to be controlled by EU laws to those concerning the Customs Union also.

You are normally a bit more precise than that!
		
Click to expand...

Been a long day


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## Sweep (Jan 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			More twaddle, that's becoming tedious to refute!

I posted that you *seem to be* suggesting she sabotaged.... Kindly re-read! An apology for your selective quote would be in order! You didn't actually deny it, so please explain what you really meant in that post!

Kindly refer to your own tip - an appropriate word!

Btw. I agree with your first sentence!
		
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So, I write a post that is very clear and either only you donâ€™t seem to understand it or you deliberately put your own spin on it. You condemn it in insulting terms as â€œa load of conspiratorial theory twaddle!â€ Before agreeing with it in your very next post in reply to SR.
You say I am â€œsuggestingâ€ that May â€œsabotagedâ€ the negotiations when I said or even suggested nothing of the sort. When I asked you to show me where I used the word â€œsabotageâ€ you couldnâ€™t. In my next post I clearly reiterated, just in case you were still in any doubt, that I did not say or suggest that May sabotaged the negotiations.
Now you want me to clarify my post again and you want ME to apologise!

What planet are you on?


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## Sweep (Jan 27, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Ok, thatâ€™s my position.
But what about you; which to you is the lesser of two evils: deal or remain (apologies if already stated, I either missed it or forgot)?
		
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Remain would be my absolute last choice. I believe it would be disasterous to go against the referendum result now. The damage it would do to the reputation of our parliament, our democracy, confidence in our political system and elected representatives would be catastrophic. No one would ever vote again. Apathy would reign and so soon after the Scottish independence vote that received such a huge turnout. The extremist parties would enjoy a real surge. People would feel powerless and disengaged from their own nation.
I donâ€™t like Mayâ€™s deal for the same reasons as you. I donâ€™t fear no deal and I export to the EU on a daily basis. I would prefer that we can do a deal that works for all and I donâ€™t want to see the EU fail. 
I think if the EU had remained a trading bloc all would have been well. I just donâ€™t believe a trading deal is worth having so much interference in the running of our own affairs by others. I think the whole EU project has been disingenuous from the start and has far outreached anything like we voted to join. I donâ€™t trust it and I think it is this lack of trust is really what is behind so many voting to leave. I donâ€™t believe it is democratic enough and as you can probably tell I am a democrat first and foremost.


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## Sweep (Jan 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I try very hard to avoid making any generic or specific insulting statement directed towards any individual or indeed group of individuals.  That I think the *decision *to leave the EU is a mad and potentially extremely damaging one for our country, does not mean or even imply that I think any individual who voted to leave is mad (or indeed potentially extremely dangerous  ).  However I know that it suits the agenda of some who voted to leave to suggest that it does.  Because we Remoaners think that all Leavers are thick racists - right?  Actually wrong.
		
Click to expand...

I am not so sure about that. Here is a breathtaking tweet that I think was supposed to defend leavers against the racist accusation but in the end goes a bit wrong and the remoaner just canâ€™t help himself:

*I disagree. Many reasonable people voted leave for entirely non-racist reasons. Now if they still want to leave then I grant you that theyâ€™re almost certainly racist, but thatâ€™s not how things looked two years ago. Back then they were going to get a unicorn!*

So no matter what your reason for voting to leave, if we havenâ€™t convinced you by now that you were wrong, you are almost certainly a racist.


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			So, I write a post that is very clear and either only you donâ€™t seem to understand it or you deliberately put your own spin on it. You condemn it in insulting terms as â€œa load of conspiratorial theory twaddle!â€ Before agreeing with it in your very next post in reply to SR.
You say I am â€œsuggestingâ€ that May â€œsabotagedâ€ the negotiations when I said or even suggested nothing of the sort. When I asked you to show me where I used the word â€œsabotageâ€ you couldnâ€™t. In my next post I clearly reiterated, just in case you were still in any doubt, that I did not say or suggest that May sabotaged the negotiations.
Now you want me to clarify my post again and you want ME to apologise!

What planet are you on?
		
Click to expand...

There's no point continuing this 'conversation'!

I stick to my description of your initial post!


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## Hobbit (Jan 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Highlighted bit - been happening for years in NATO exercises or conflicts etc - Many Nations Under Joint Operations.

And been told by people in various high roles in defence both civil servants and Military- the UK Armed Forces will always be under overall control by the UK government - many laws that keep it that way regardless what the EU security blah blah may say
		
Click to expand...


You said it would never happen. You were proven wrong, including a link to the EU's own website. You come back with blah, blah, blah. Try not to be too childish Phil. You were proven wrong, be man enough to admit it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You said it would never happen. You were proven wrong, including a link to the EU's own website. You come back with blah, blah, blah. Try not to be too childish Phil. You were proven wrong, be man enough to admit it.
		
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Proven wrong ? Iâ€™m confused but i must have missed the time when the UK Armed Forces no longer exists and itâ€™s now an EU Army ? Can you let me know when that happened ?


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## harpo_72 (Jan 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I am not so sure about that. Here is a breathtaking tweet that I think was supposed to defend leavers against the racist accusation but in the end goes a bit wrong and the remoaner just canâ€™t help himself:

*I disagree. Many reasonable people voted leave for entirely non-racist reasons. Now if they still want to leave then I grant you that theyâ€™re almost certainly racist, but thatâ€™s not how things looked two years ago. Back then they were going to get a unicorn!*

So no matter what your reason for voting to leave, if we havenâ€™t convinced you by now that you were wrong, you are almost certainly a racist.
		
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I think we have constant quotes about the 17million who voted leave. What we fail to mention is some of those reasons were not about leaving but protest votes. 
Then 2.5 years down the line we have a new generation of voters who want their say and the quotes and forgive me if these are wrong are that 70% are in favour of remain. Additionally there is the loss of voters due to natural causes or setting up elsewhere. 
So the point of a second referendum is justified. 
I donâ€™t think the current leavers are all racist, there is a large faction which are, it cannot be denied. However there is a proportion who think they are correct, and they need to pull together a persuasive argument. 
Although experience is those ardent leavers use business cases, but they donâ€™t seem to be current.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Remain would be my absolute last choice. I believe it would be disasterous to go against the referendum result now. The damage it would do to the reputation of our parliament, our democracy, confidence in our political system and elected representatives would be catastrophic. No one would ever vote again. Apathy would reign and so soon after the Scottish independence vote that received such a huge turnout. The extremist parties would enjoy a real surge. People would feel powerless and disengaged from their own nation.
I donâ€™t like Mayâ€™s deal for the same reasons as you. I donâ€™t fear no deal and I export to the EU on a daily basis. I would prefer that we can do a deal that works for all and I donâ€™t want to see the EU fail.
I think if the EU had remained a trading bloc all would have been well. I just donâ€™t believe a trading deal is worth having so much interference in the running of our own affairs by others. I think the whole EU project has been disingenuous from the start and has far outreached anything like we voted to join. I donâ€™t trust it and I think it is this lack of trust is really what is behind so many voting to leave. I donâ€™t believe it is democratic enough and as you can probably tell I am a democrat first and foremost.
		
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And leave with a no deal would be the absolute last choice of many others, including a majority of parliament. Statements like '_no one would ever vote again'_ are the leavers equivalent of some remainers very worst case project fear statements. The alternatives are do a deal, come out with no deal or a second referendum.  No one is saying anyone should just ignore the referendum and forget it ever happened. And if people see a second referendum as 'ignoring the result' then fair enough, that's their prerogative.  But there are many others that if faced with the choice of coming out with no deal or having a second referendum once we know the alternatives would prefer a second referendum. 

And if there is a second referendum then that may well lead to some increased interest in extremist parties.  But I would argue that that genie is already out of the bottle in many western societies, and there are many other political, social and economic factors that need addressing to stop the rise of extremist politics and a second vote would only play a relatively small part in that.


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## Hobbit (Jan 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Proven wrong ? Iâ€™m confused but i must have missed the time when the UK Armed Forces no longer exists and itâ€™s now an EU Army ? Can you let me know when that happened ?
		
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You're dodging it Phil, and very poorly at that. Who said anything about the UK armed forces no longer existing? You did. You're shifting the goal posts to try and get out from under your statement that UK forces would never be commanded by the EU, which has very clearly proven to be untrue.

Maybe something you can relate to. Who is the overall commander of the EUFOR? Who was the overall commander of that mission when it first went into Bosnia? How many different commanders have there been, and from how many different countries?

As you can see from below, Major-General Leakey was overall commander for 2 years. UK armed forces have been commanded for a further 13 years by commanders from other countries.

*No.* *Nation* *Rank* *Name* *Period* 1
	
	
		
		
	


	



United KingdomMajor GeneralDavid Leakey02.12.2004 â€“ 06.12.2005 2
	
	
		
		
	


	



ItalyMajor GeneralGian Marco Chiarini06.12.2005 â€“ 05.12.2006 3
	
	
		
		
	


	



GermanyRear AdmiralHans-Jochen Witthauer05.12.2006 â€“ 04.12.2007 4
	
	
		
		
	


	



SpainMajor GeneralIgnacio MartÃ­n VillalaÃ­n[6]04.12.2007 â€“ 04.12.2008 5
	
	
		
		
	


	



ItalyMajor GeneralStefano Castagnotto04.12.2008 â€“ 03.12.2009 6
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralBernhard Bair04.12.2009 â€“ 06.12.2011 7
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralRobert Brieger06.12.2011 â€“ 03.12.2012 8
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralDieter Heidecker03.12.2012 â€“ 17.12.2014 9
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralJohann Luif17.12.2014 â€“ 24.03.2016 10
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralFriedrich SchrÃ¶tter24.03.2016 â€“ 28.03.2017 11
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralAnton Waldner28.03.2017 â€“ 28.03.2018 12
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralMartin Dorfer28.03.2018 â€“ present

Why can't you, when presented with irrefutable evidence from the EU's own website referencing EU regs, admit you're wrong?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You're dodging it Phil, and very poorly at that. Who said anything about the UK armed forces no longer existing? You did. You're shifting the goal posts to try and get out from under your statement that UK forces would never be commanded by the EU, which has very clearly proven to be untrue.

Maybe something you can relate to. Who is the overall commander of the EUFOR? Who was the overall commander of that mission when it first went into Bosnia? How many different commanders have there been, and from how many different countries?

As you can see from below, Major-General Leakey was overall commander for 2 years. UK armed forces have been commanded for a further 13 years by commanders from other countries.

*No.* *Nation* *Rank* *Name* *Period* 1
	
	
		
		
	


	



United KingdomMajor GeneralDavid Leakey02.12.2004 â€“ 06.12.2005 2
	
	
		
		
	


	



ItalyMajor GeneralGian Marco Chiarini06.12.2005 â€“ 05.12.2006 3
	
	
		
		
	


	



GermanyRear AdmiralHans-Jochen Witthauer05.12.2006 â€“ 04.12.2007 4
	
	
		
		
	


	



SpainMajor GeneralIgnacio MartÃ­n VillalaÃ­n[6]04.12.2007 â€“ 04.12.2008 5
	
	
		
		
	


	



ItalyMajor GeneralStefano Castagnotto04.12.2008 â€“ 03.12.2009 6
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralBernhard Bair04.12.2009 â€“ 06.12.2011 7
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralRobert Brieger06.12.2011 â€“ 03.12.2012 8
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralDieter Heidecker03.12.2012 â€“ 17.12.2014 9
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralJohann Luif17.12.2014 â€“ 24.03.2016 10
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralFriedrich SchrÃ¶tter24.03.2016 â€“ 28.03.2017 11
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralAnton Waldner28.03.2017 â€“ 28.03.2018 12
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralMartin Dorfer28.03.2018 â€“ present

Why can't you, when presented with irrefutable evidence from the EU's own website referencing EU regs, admit you're wrong?
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			The EU donâ€™t have control over the UK armed Forces and never would - itâ€™s just words , itâ€™s never going to happen - lots and lots of hurdles and laws in the way. Itâ€™s just never going to happen. *There can be exercises etc etc but our Armed Forces will be under the control of our government.*

Click to expand...

Iâ€™m not exactly sure what it is you think I have said but I have highlighted above for you 

The European Union donâ€™t have control of the UK Forces , UK can be â€œaskedâ€ to supply troops for exercises or operations or conflicts etc and a lot of those times they will be under the command of various commanders within the Operation - American etc etc etc 

BUT the UK Government have overall control of our own Armed Forces - I have heard plenty of scaremongering about EU army and the EU having control over our forces etc etc


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## Hobbit (Jan 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m not exactly sure what it is you think I have said but I have highlighted above for you

The European Union donâ€™t have control of the UK Forces , UK can be â€œaskedâ€ to supply troops for exercises or operations or conflicts etc and a lot of those times they will be under the command of various commanders within the Operation - American etc etc etc

BUT the UK Government have overall control of our own Armed Forces - I have heard plenty of scaremongering about EU army and the EU having control over our forces etc etc
		
Click to expand...

I'm not disputing the UK govt control. The govt says yes they can go but, as you saw from who commands EUFOR and under current EU regs if the mission is extended or the focus changes the EU defence commissioner doesn't have to refer back to the member states to change the remit. Ergo they are commanded by the EU. Its as simple as that.

If you can be bothered to read the info it clearly states what the command structure is. And the change to the remit on the deployment to the Democratic Republic of Congo clearly shows the use of that control.

The decision in the Congo was the right operational decision. It was a necessary reactionary decision made based on what was changing in front of them. But in terms of the wider debate about an EU army and who controls it you're wrong, its already happening/happened. That aside, I agree with an EU army for the defence of the EU *WITHIN* its own borders, and I don't care who controls it for those operations. No problem with that at all but I fundamentally disagree with EU forces operating outside the EU... think about it in the context of what has gone on in recent years. British troops in Iraq/Afghanistan has led to terror attacks in the UK. When does someone from the Congo set off a bomb in Brussels/London?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think we have constant quotes about the 17million who voted leave. What we fail to mention is some of those reasons were not about leaving but protest votes.
Then 2.5 years down the line we have a new generation of voters who want their say and the quotes and forgive me if these are wrong are that 70% are in favour of remain. Additionally there is the loss of voters due to natural causes or setting up elsewhere.
So the point of a second referendum is justified.
I donâ€™t think the current leavers are all racist, there is a large faction which are, it cannot be denied. However there is a proportion who think they are correct, and they need to pull together a persuasive argument.
Although experience is those ardent leavers use business cases, but they donâ€™t seem to be current.
		
Click to expand...

There may be a large number of Remainers who are Racists, Who Knows?  There may be a number of middle aged Remainers who are now Older and are now Leavers, Who Knows?    17.4 Million did infact vote Leave, it does not matter a hoot why they decided to, they just did.   Supposition on whether people may have different voting intentions is also an irrelevance, that's just not the way democracy works, how chaotic would it be if this type of reasoning was used every time there was a vote on something.  Let your Yin and Yang become harmonious I say, face the morning sun and feel the rain on your skin.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 27, 2019)

Seems it isn't only the Leavers that don't understand;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_an...-gets-death-threats-over-anti-brexit-receipts

Before the deflections start, Brexit wasn't about stopping immigration, it was about controlling it; allowing in people who want to contribute to and become part of the community, not just take from it.


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## bobmac (Jan 27, 2019)

EBay sellers who place an advert/photo for a 'smart plug' at Â£1.99, only to find the smart plugs are Â£12.99 and Â£1.99 is for a travel adapter or a 3 month warranty . 

eg 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_...lug&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=1&_trksid=p2045573.m1684


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## user2010 (Jan 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You're dodging it Phil, and very poorly at that. Who said anything about the UK armed forces no longer existing? You did. You're shifting the goal posts to try and get out from under your statement that UK forces would never be commanded by the EU, which has very clearly proven to be untrue.

Maybe something you can relate to. Who is the overall commander of the EUFOR? Who was the overall commander of that mission when it first went into Bosnia? How many different commanders have there been, and from how many different countries?

As you can see from below, Major-General Leakey was overall commander for 2 years. UK armed forces have been commanded for a further 13 years by commanders from other countries.

*No.* *Nation* *Rank* *Name* *Period* 1
	
	
		
		
	


	



United KingdomMajor GeneralDavid Leakey02.12.2004 â€“ 06.12.2005 2
	
	
		
		
	


	



ItalyMajor GeneralGian Marco Chiarini06.12.2005 â€“ 05.12.2006 3
	
	
		
		
	


	



GermanyRear AdmiralHans-Jochen Witthauer05.12.2006 â€“ 04.12.2007 4
	
	
		
		
	


	



SpainMajor GeneralIgnacio MartÃ­n VillalaÃ­n[6]04.12.2007 â€“ 04.12.2008 5
	
	
		
		
	


	



ItalyMajor GeneralStefano Castagnotto04.12.2008 â€“ 03.12.2009 6
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralBernhard Bair04.12.2009 â€“ 06.12.2011 7
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralRobert Brieger06.12.2011 â€“ 03.12.2012 8
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralDieter Heidecker03.12.2012 â€“ 17.12.2014 9
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralJohann Luif17.12.2014 â€“ 24.03.2016 10
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralFriedrich SchrÃ¶tter24.03.2016 â€“ 28.03.2017 11
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralAnton Waldner28.03.2017 â€“ 28.03.2018 12
	
	
		
		
	


	



AustriaMajor GeneralMartin Dorfer28.03.2018 â€“ present

*Why can't you*, when presented with irrefutable evidence from the EU's own website referencing EU regs, *admit you're wrong*?
		
Click to expand...





Maybe because *his *version of Google is always right, perhaps?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2019)

I want a peoples vote = My vote lost so I want another one

We didn't understand what we were voting for = My vote lost so I want another one

A lot of Old people have died since the referendum = My vote lost so I want another one

Extend Article 50 = My vote lost so I want another one

Halt article 50 = My vote lost so I want another one

I respect the referendum result, but = My vote lost so I want another one

We must not allow a No Deal = My vote lost so I want another one

Leave told lies on the side of the bus = My vote lost so I want another one

Leave voters are Racist = My vote lost so I want another one


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2019)

bobmac said:



			EBay sellers who place an advert/photo for a 'smart plug' at Â£1.99, only to find the smart plugs are Â£12.99 and Â£1.99 is for a travel adapter or a 3 month warranty . 

eg
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_sop=15&_nkw=smart plug&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=1&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

Click to expand...

Is it something to do with Brexit?


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## bobmac (Jan 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Is it something to do with Brexit?
		
Click to expand...

Oops, *I made a mistake*, wrong thread.
See, it's easy


----------



## drdel (Jan 27, 2019)

It is perfectly obvious and logical that if a vote is held then the only reason anyone would wish to go through the hassle and incur the massive cost again and re-run the process is because they disliked the first result. QED.


----------



## Fade and Die (Jan 27, 2019)

You can tell how desperate the remainers are getting now â€“ all the way down from Philip Hammond encouraging Airbus to issue a doomsday warning earlier this week to Kent Constabulary last week putting their schools on â€œlockdownâ€ due to traffic jams IFâ€¦.. you know the rest.

Hereâ€™s another beauty.....

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-planners-could-use-martial-law-against-civil-disobedience-11619088


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## 3offTheTee (Jan 27, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Oops, *I made a mistake*, wrong thread.
See, it's easy
		
Click to expand...

V EASY Bob!!


----------



## hors limite (Jan 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I assume this was addressed to me although it doesnt say so.

Where exactly did I reveal how economically impervious I will be to any downside or take pleasure in fellow citizens to lose jobs.  You appear to be forming an opinion based on personal prejudices rather than fact which is not a good foundation for debate.

When I give my opinion on a subject then it is my considered view, I do not need to defend it to you or anyone, you can challenge it if you wish but it would be better if your challenge gave a contrary view rather than relying on some personal insults and slight of character.

Since you have not attempted to read through my posts and understand my viewpoint correctly then I feel under no obligation to reiterate it.    However a quick precey is that my preference is for a free trade agreement with the EU which would solve the Irish border issue, a payment that covered our reasonable ongoing obligations and full cooperation on security and technology.  I do not want a second referendum or to stay a member of the EU, I believe we must carry out the will of the democratic vote.  Failing this my next option is to leave without a formal exit agreement and then negotiate a series of mutually  beneficial agreements where possible.  I do not advocate anyone losing their jobs but understand the reality of business and change.  It may well be that some people will lose jobs, that happens every day and for a mirriad of reasons, just like new jobs are created every day for a mirriad of reasons, the world keeps turning and day follows night.

So, that's my condensed opinion, if you dislike it then I cant help that and unless you wish to engage in a grown up debate on the issues rather than your previous onslaught then I have nothing more to discuss with you.

Good day.
		
Click to expand...

To return to your seeming economic insulation from bumps in the road. Not long ago, to persuade us what a clever chap you are, you posted an outline of your job experience which suggested that you must be very well paid. It does make me wonder though as your spelling in this and other posts is pretty hopeless and  doesn't reflect the sort of education that might go with your suggested CV - mirriad/myriad, precey/precis.
Job losses. Once again, you admit that in order to deliver your Brexit omelette, you are willing to break the eggs that are UK jobs. I hate to have to remind you that job losses were not promised by Johnson, Gove, Farage and the rest of your charlatans. How the story has now changed with Rees Mogg telling us that a no deal would be " survivable". The same man who said that it might take 50 years to see any benefits.
Your deluded view of your Brexit is the one put forward 2 years ago, the benefits of the EU without the obligations. Which bit of" it's not available" do you not understand?


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



Seems it isn't only the Leavers that don't understand;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_an...-gets-death-threats-over-anti-brexit-receipts

Before the deflections start, Brexit wasn't about stopping immigration, it was about controlling it; allowing in people who want to contribute to and become part of the community, not just take from it.
		
Click to expand...

Well, that's a restaurant I won't be frequenting! Misuse of his position imo - as well as the (fairly standard but equally offensive) addition of 'discretionary' service charge!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2019)

hors limite said:



			To return to your seeming economic insulation from bumps in the road. Not long ago, to persuade us what a clever chap you are, you posted an outline of your job experience which suggested that you must be very well paid. It does make me wonder though as your spelling in this and other posts is pretty hopeless and  doesn't reflect the sort of education that might go with your suggested CV - mirriad/myriad, precey/precis.
Job losses. Once again, you admit that in order to deliver your Brexit omelette, you are willing to break the eggs that are UK jobs. I hate to have to remind you that job losses were not promised by Johnson, Gove, Farage and the rest of your charlatans. How the story has now changed with Rees Mogg telling us that a no deal would be " survivable". The same man who said that it might take 50 years to see any benefits.
Your deluded view of your Brexit is the one put forward 2 years ago, the benefits of the EU without the obligations. Which bit of" it's not available" do you not understand?
		
Click to expand...

You have ignored my comments to suit your embittered and prejudiced view. Since you only seem to be interested in petty point scoring and personal attack then I will treat your comments with the contempt they deserve.


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## Kellfire (Jan 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Well, that's a restaurant I won't be frequenting! Misuse of his position imo - as well as the (fairly standard but equally offensive) addition of 'discretionary' service charge!
		
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â€œMisuse of his positionâ€. Haha. Good one.


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## hors limite (Jan 27, 2019)

Leavers often complain of being accused of a lack of intelligence. I commend to you a video of the Brexit champion, Tim Martin, chairman of Wetherspoons. 



.


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## Old Skier (Jan 27, 2019)

hors limite said:



			Leavers often complain of being accused of a lack of intelligence. I commend to you a video of the Brexit champion, Tim Martin, chairman of Wetherspoons. 



.
		
Click to expand...

Two hypercritical wasters together


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



Seems it isn't only the Leavers that don't understand;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_an...-gets-death-threats-over-anti-brexit-receipts

Before the deflections start, Brexit wasn't about stopping immigration, it was about controlling it; *allowing in people who want to contribute to and become part of the community*, not just take from it.
		
Click to expand...

Fine words, but impossible to, practically, implement!

'Controlling it' is as much as can, practically, be done imo.


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			You can tell how desperate the remainers are getting now â€“ all the way down from Philip Hammond encouraging Airbus to issue a doomsday warning earlier this week to Kent Constabulary last week putting their schools on â€œlockdownâ€ due to traffic jams IFâ€¦.. you know the rest.

Hereâ€™s another beauty.....

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-planners-could-use-martial-law-against-civil-disobedience-11619088

Click to expand...

Indeed, it seems fairly much a 'manufactured' story to me.

However, the 1st video in the article did highlight, at least according to 1 ex Head of MI6 (Dearlove), how May's deal could mean 'parts of UK's Security could be placed in the foreign hands'. That's certainly not what Brexit is about - and, as noted in the same vid, May appears to be attempting to find a workaround, if not a solution.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Fine words, but impossible to, practically, implement!

'Controlling it' is as much as can, practically, be done imo.
		
Click to expand...

Extremely difficult to achieve, yes, but if we don't try we'll never know for sure.

Certainly better than having an open door policy to certain "occupations", primarily from Eastern Europe.  Maybe if the EU had stuck at being a trading bloc rather than a federal republic it wouldn't have been a problem...


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## Sweep (Jan 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			And leave with a no deal would be the absolute last choice of many others, including a majority of parliament. Statements like '_no one would ever vote again'_ are the leavers equivalent of some remainers very worst case project fear statements. The alternatives are do a deal, come out with no deal or a second referendum.  No one is saying anyone should just ignore the referendum and forget it ever happened. And if people see a second referendum as 'ignoring the result' then fair enough, that's their prerogative.  But there are many others that if faced with the choice of coming out with no deal or having a second referendum once we know the alternatives would prefer a second referendum.

And if there is a second referendum then that may well lead to some increased interest in extremist parties.  But I would argue that that genie is already out of the bottle in many western societies, and there are many other political, social and economic factors that need addressing to stop the rise of extremist politics and a second vote would only play a relatively small part in that.
		
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I think you are confusing not leaving with a second referendum. I didnâ€™t mention a second referendum.
Have you considered that remain might lose a second referendum?
Have you considered that the majority of voters can see right through the calls for a second referendum as a way to go against the democratic vote?
Have you considered what the question would be? How could it be phrased so as not to split the leave vote? 
How about leave with this deal or leave with no deal? How about the option to remain was not on the ballot paper? That would be true democracy. After all, the decision to leave was made 31 months ago. The people of the United Kingdom have already made that decision.
Would you be in favour of that second referendum or does it not seem so appealing now?


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## drdel (Jan 27, 2019)

I can recall a time well before the EU, and the Common Market when we raced cars in France, Germany Italy and other European countries. A few bits of paper; a passport was all that was needed. Even with a truck full of cars and spares there was no real delays crossing borders.

My employer shipped stuff internationally without pain or numerous office staff.

Similarly we never had any bother taking continental holidays.

Have we all become whimps?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			I can recall a time well before the EU, and the Common Market when we raced cars in France, Germany Italy and other European countries. A few bits of paper; a passport was all that was needed. Even with a truck full of cars and spares there was no real delays crossing borders.

My employer shipped stuff internationally without pain or numerous office staff.

Similarly we never had any bother taking continental holidays.

*Have we all become whimps*?
		
Click to expand...

No but you are kind of playing into the stereotype of the old leave person going on about times 40 years ago and wanting to return to those days. Where as the world has changed significantly in those decades, some of it for the better and some for the worse.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I think you are confusing not leaving with a second referendum. I didnâ€™t mention a second referendum.
Have you considered that remain might lose a second referendum?
Have you considered that the majority of voters can see right through the calls for a second referendum as a way to go against the democratic vote?
Have you considered what the question would be? How could it be phrased so as not to split the leave vote?
How about leave with this deal or leave with no deal? How about the option to remain was not on the ballot paper? That would be true democracy. After all, the decision to leave was made 31 months ago. The people of the United Kingdom have already made that decision.
Would you be in favour of that second referendum or does it not seem so appealing now?
		
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OK, to answer your questions.  You were on about going against the referendum result and I said that that is not an option, they are not going to completely ignore it so the only way the government can be accused in any way of going against the referendum result is a second referendum. If we get a deal or leave without one then we will not be going against the referendum result. 
Yes remain may well lose the second referendum once the choices are clearly spelt out and people are more aware of the consequences.
Have you considered that a some voters see the second referendum as one potential way out of the current stalemate, however the support for it in parliament is decreasing. 
The question would have to reflect the options on the table at that time.  If there is a clear consensus for one option when people are aware of what it means and the consequences then that is what should enacted.
True democracy is whatever people want it to be, having a referendum where the two options are what 48% of the people that voted at the time were not in favour of isn't true democracy to me.  
I have never really been in favour of a second election and would much rather see a deal being done. But if the only choice is between leaving with no deal and a second referendum, whilst I can see the potential problems a second election would cause, the fact we are having one would not cause me to lose all faith in democracy. Where as going out without a deal would cause me to lose all faith in politicians to do what I feel is best for the future prosperity of the nation. And I think a lot of politicians know that. 

We are in a situation where a majority in parliament does not agree with the public on a referendum. This is unique in our history and we are currently trying to find a way out of it and whoever decided to execute the referendum in the way they did needs to hang their head in shame. I feel both sides have been let down. However I feel based on how it was conducted and what we have learned since that democracy does not start and stop with the Brexit referendum.   If I am honest bot based propaganda and manipulation of social media but hostile interests to me is a much bigger threat to democracy that a second referendum would be based on what we have experienced since the vote.  But I acknowledge that others may disagree.


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## hors limite (Jan 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Two hypercritical wasters together
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			Two hypercritical wasters together
		
Click to expand...

Another Leaver who doesn't know how to spell!


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## robinthehood (Jan 27, 2019)

Scrotie McBoogerballs said:



			Maybe because *his *version of Google is always right, perhaps?

Click to expand...

Ha ha it's Google vs Bing, perhaps jeeves may know more ðŸ¤£


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## MegaSteve (Jan 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			No but you are kind of playing into the stereotype of the old leave person going on about times 40 years ago and wanting to return to those days. Where as the world has changed significantly in those decades, some of it for the better and some for the worse.
		
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Significantly for the worse for the majority of ordinary working folk... Staying in cahoots with Brussels was not going to see a reversal of that trend... Only option being to retake control of our own destiny...


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## hors limite (Jan 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You have ignored my comments to suit your embittered and prejudiced view. Since you only seem to be interested in petty point scoring and personal attack then I will treat your comments with the contempt they deserve.[/QU
I haven't ignored your comments at all. When I point out that you are content to sacrifice people's jobs on the altar of your delusions you don't like it.
My criticisms of you and people like you are fuelled by a genuine disgust at your attitude. The UK office of the EU medicines agency has just closed with the loss of 800 jobs - just collateral damage I suppose.
If you wish to treat my comments with contempt - good for you. I am in good company as the sad truth is that you treat the UK workers fearing for the future with the same contempt.
		
Click to expand...


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 27, 2019)

hors limite said:



			Another Leaver who doesn't know how to spell!
		
Click to expand...


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## Old Skier (Jan 27, 2019)

hors limite said:



			Another Leaver who doesn't know how to spell!
		
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If that's the only fault you can find with leavers that's fine with me teach but surely it's more polite to show me the correct spelling or are you having problems looking it up.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			I can recall a time well before the EU, and the Common Market when we raced cars in France, Germany Italy and other European countries. A few bits of paper; a passport was all that was needed. Even with a truck full of cars and spares there was no real delays crossing borders.

My employer shipped stuff internationally without pain or numerous office staff.

Similarly we never had any bother taking continental holidays.

Have we all become whimps?
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s the simple stuff... somewhere down the line we integrated and it got complex.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 27, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 26448

Click to expand...

But your content with name calling .. correct ?


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## Dando (Jan 27, 2019)

hors limite said:



			Leavers often complain of being accused of a lack of intelligence. I commend to you a video of the Brexit champion, Tim Martin, chairman of Wetherspoons. 



.
		
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The world would be a better If only Owen Jonesâ€™ dad had pulled out


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			But your content with name calling .. correct ?
		
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Iâ€™m commenting on people criticising others spelling or grammar.

If there is name calling then report it.  I canâ€™t filter every post.

Name calling is very childish and should be avoided and anyone doing so is a big ninny ðŸ‘


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## harpo_72 (Jan 27, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Iâ€™m commenting on people criticising others spelling or grammar.

If there is name calling then report it.  I canâ€™t filter every post.

Name calling is very childish and should be avoided and anyone doing so is a big ninny ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, but the spelling is well worth pointing out ...


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## Old Skier (Jan 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thank you, but the spelling is well worth pointing out ...
		
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Only if your clever enough to correct it teach.


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## Old Skier (Jan 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thank you, but the spelling is well worth pointing out ...
		
Click to expand...

PS, one full stop teach.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Only if your clever enough to correct it teach.
		
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Old Skier said:



			PS, one full stop teach.
		
Click to expand...


Can we please stop 
Polite request
Before I start kicking butt ðŸ‘


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## drdel (Jan 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



*No but you are kind of playing into the stereotype of the old leave person going on about times 40 years ago *and wanting to return to those days. Where as the world has changed significantly in those decades, some of it for the better and some for the worse.
		
Click to expand...

You're wide of the mark in your inference and feeble attempt at a put down. In contrast to your claim I wish to "return" to the past I'd just add that in my career I've been helping develop systems for the future!!  Most of my time has been spent assisting international companies with their processes especially with integrated IT and international supply chain management. I also helped the EU/UK with the design of the original SAD (Standard Administrative Document) for import /export processing. My point was that 40 years ago industry and private individuals managed to bridge national borders relatively easily - today modern IT, X-Ray systems and comms enable freight forwarders and Customs to manage duty and shipments much, much easier.

We also have a worldwide system of Freeports and bonded warehouses etc.  Consequently I do not subscribe to the scaremongering that suggests the UK's imports and exports will grind to a halt. If you want to deal in these hyped assertions feel free.


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## User62651 (Jan 27, 2019)

Dando said:



			The world would be a better If only Owen Jonesâ€™ dad had pulled out
		
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Why's that then? Has he touched a nerve because he's annoyingly correct?


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## Dando (Jan 27, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Why's that then? Has he touched a nerve because he's annoyingly correct?

Click to expand...

Heâ€™s a pretentious little prick who loves the sound of his own voice and cries like a little bitch if anyone disagrees with him


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 27, 2019)

Dando said:



			Heâ€™s a pretentious little prick who loves the sound of his own voice and cries like a little bitch if anyone disagrees with him
		
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Mr Dando

Wash your mouth out please .

Be civil when you donâ€™t like someone , it doesnâ€™t take much effort ðŸ‘


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## Dando (Jan 27, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Mr Dando

Wash your mouth out please .

Be civil when you donâ€™t like someone , it doesnâ€™t take much effort ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

I was being civil


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 27, 2019)

Dando said:



			I was being civil
		
Click to expand...

Well  be more civil please ðŸ‘


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## Scoobiesnax (Jan 27, 2019)

Dando said:



			Heâ€™s a pretentious little prick who loves the sound of his own voice and cries like a little bitch if anyone disagrees with him
		
Click to expand...

Think that sums him up quite nicely.
Mod edit


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## Dando (Jan 27, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well  be more civil please ðŸ‘
		
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Iâ€™ll try


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2019)

#Hors Limite

Picking up on a few typos is pathetic and reveals your vitriolic manner.  I made clear my preferences with Brexit and jobs but you seem to have a nasty big chip on your shoulder and a filter on your comprehension.  I feel sorry for you, I really do.


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## Sweep (Jan 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			OK, to answer your questions.  You were on about going against the referendum result and I said that that is not an option, they are not going to completely ignore it so the only way the government can be accused in any way of going against the referendum result is a second referendum. If we get a deal or leave without one then we will not be going against the referendum result.
Yes remain may well lose the second referendum once the choices are clearly spelt out and people are more aware of the consequences.
Have you considered that a some voters see the second referendum as one potential way out of the current stalemate, however the support for it in parliament is decreasing.
The question would have to reflect the options on the table at that time.  If there is a clear consensus for one option when people are aware of what it means and the consequences then that is what should enacted.
True democracy is whatever people want it to be, having a referendum where the two options are what 48% of the people that voted at the time were not in favour of isn't true democracy to me. 
I have never really been in favour of a second election and would much rather see a deal being done. But if the only choice is between leaving with no deal and a second referendum, whilst I can see the potential problems a second election would cause, the fact we are having one would not cause me to lose all faith in democracy. Where as going out without a deal would cause me to lose all faith in politicians to do what I feel is best for the future prosperity of the nation. And I think a lot of politicians know that.

We are in a situation where a majority in parliament does not agree with the public on a referendum. This is unique in our history and we are currently trying to find a way out of it and whoever decided to execute the referendum in the way they did needs to hang their head in shame. I feel both sides have been let down. However I feel based on how it was conducted and what we have learned since that democracy does not start and stop with the Brexit referendum.   If I am honest bot based propaganda and manipulation of social media but hostile interests to me is a much bigger threat to democracy that a second referendum would be based on what we have experienced since the vote.  But I acknowledge that others may disagree.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that we are in a unique situation in that those we have elected to Parliament are at odds to the electorate. However, it is the electorate that counts. Much is being said about parliamentary deadlock. It matters not. The electorate gave their decision and it should be enacted.
Those who are calling for a second referendum are simply and desperately trying to get the decision reversed. Thatâ€™s it. There are no others reasons behind it. Those in parliament who were elected on a manifesto of enacting the referendum result, voted to trigger A50 etc etc should do their job, fulfill their duty and get on with it. If itâ€™s so unpalatable to them, they should resign.
All we have experienced since the vote is project fear upon more project fear and yet the reality seems very different.
If democracy doesnâ€™t start and end with a simple in / out vote then where does it?
Quite apart from all the other consequences of reversing the decision I outlined, no-one seems to have considered what if the EU goes too far? What if we want to get out in the future. If we canâ€™t leave now, when we have had a campaign, project fear, government propaganda paid for by the tax payer through every door in the country, told that leavers are thick, racist and canâ€™t spell (on this forum today) and we still vote to leave, then when can we?
If a vote of this magnitude is ignored or reversed, what is the point in voting? Your vote will count for nothing. I live 100yds from my polling station. I wouldnâ€™t even waste the shoe leather. As a man in the street what do you have if you donâ€™t have democracy? The answer is nothing. Donâ€™t take my word for it, just ask people in North Korea, or read books on life in communist Russia, China, Nazi Germany, Iraq. You know, those kind of places where they tend to kill millions of their own people and anyone with an opinion tends to disappear.
Anyone remainer who is daft enough to think that our membership of the EU is worth risking democracy for needs their heads testing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I agree that we are in a unique situation in that those we have elected to Parliament are at odds to the electorate. However, it is the electorate that counts. Much is being said about parliamentary deadlock. It matters not. The electorate gave their decision and it should be enacted.
Those who are calling for a second referendum are simply and desperately trying to get the decision reversed. Thatâ€™s it. There are no others reasons behind it. Those in parliament who were elected on a manifesto of enacting the referendum result, voted to trigger A50 etc etc should do their job, fulfill their duty and get on with it. If itâ€™s so unpalatable to them, they should resign.
All we have experienced since the vote is project fear upon more project fear and yet the reality seems very different.
If democracy doesnâ€™t start and end with a simple in / out vote then where does it?
Quite apart from all the other consequences of reversing the decision I outlined, no-one seems to have considered what if the EU goes too far? What if we want to get out in the future. If we canâ€™t leave now, when we have had a campaign, project fear, government propaganda paid for by the tax payer through every door in the country, told that leavers are thick, racist and canâ€™t spell (on this forum today) and we still vote to leave, then when can we?
If a vote of this magnitude is ignored or reversed, what is the point in voting? Your vote will count for nothing. I live 100yds from my polling station. I wouldnâ€™t even waste the shoe leather. As a man in the street what do you have if you donâ€™t have democracy? The answer is nothing.* Donâ€™t take my word for it, just ask people in North Korea, or read books on life in communist Russia, China, Nazi Germany, Iraq. You know, those kind of places where they tend to kill millions of their own people and anyone with an opinion tends to disappear.*
Anyone remainer who is daft enough to think that our membership of the EU is worth risking democracy for needs their heads testing.
		
Click to expand...


The comparisons are a touch over dramatic- if there is to be any change on Art 50 and a change of thinking then I suspect there will be a second democratic vote of some sort. So democracy will still continue


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 27, 2019)

Dando said:



			Iâ€™ll try
		
Click to expand...

Good man ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‡


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## Dando (Jan 27, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Good man ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‡
		
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ðŸ¤¬


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think we have constant quotes about the 17million who voted leave. What we fail to mention is some of those reasons were not about leaving but protest votes.
Then 2.5 years down the line we have a new generation of voters who want their say and the quotes and forgive me if these are wrong are that 70% are in favour of remain. Additionally there is the loss of voters due to natural causes or setting up elsewhere.
So the point of a second referendum is justified.
		
Click to expand...

Even as someone that supported Remain I find this kind of thinking twisted. A logical extension of this is that 2.5 years after the date of your requested second referendum we will again have a new generation of voters who would also want their say so we'd then need a third referendum. And 2.5 years after that another generation of voters wanting their say. So using your reasoning we'd need to have a referendum every 3 years.

Unless of course you're suggesting that we should just have the one more referendum and as long as the vote is to remain we can stop because we'll have got the answer that you want.


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## Old Skier (Jan 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			and canâ€™t spell (on this forum today).
		
Click to expand...

It's a good job he didn't set a maths question, he would have had a fit.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I agree that we are in a unique situation in that those we have elected to Parliament are at odds to the electorate. However, it is the electorate that counts. Much is being said about parliamentary deadlock. It matters not. The electorate gave their decision and it should be enacted.
Those who are calling for a second referendum are simply and desperately trying to get the decision reversed. Thatâ€™s it. There are no others reasons behind it. Those in parliament who were elected on a manifesto of enacting the referendum result, voted to trigger A50 etc etc should do their job, fulfill their duty and get on with it. If itâ€™s so unpalatable to them, they should resign.
All we have experienced since the vote is project fear upon more project fear and yet the reality seems very different.
If democracy doesnâ€™t start and end with a simple in / out vote then where does it?
Quite apart from all the other consequences of reversing the decision I outlined, no-one seems to have considered what if the EU goes too far? What if we want to get out in the future. If we canâ€™t leave now, when we have had a campaign, project fear, government propaganda paid for by the tax payer through every door in the country, told that leavers are thick, racist and canâ€™t spell (on this forum today) and we still vote to leave, then when can we?
If a vote of this magnitude is ignored or reversed, what is the point in voting? Your vote will count for nothing. I live 100yds from my polling station. I wouldnâ€™t even waste the shoe leather. As a man in the street what do you have if you donâ€™t have democracy? The answer is nothing. Donâ€™t take my word for it, just ask people in North Korea, or read books on life in communist Russia, China, Nazi Germany, Iraq. You know, those kind of places where they tend to kill millions of their own people and anyone with an opinion tends to disappear.
Anyone remainer who is daft enough to think that our membership of the EU is worth risking democracy for needs their heads testing.
		
Click to expand...

An excellent post sir. I wish our politicians could read it and then ask them for comment.


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## User62651 (Jan 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The comparisons are a touch over dramatic- if there is to be any change on Art 50 and a change of thinking then I suspect there will be a second democratic vote of some sort. So democracy will still continue
		
Click to expand...

General election turnouts by % haven't been over 70% since 1997, so voter apathy is not new. A few angry old leavers with hollow threats never to vote again is probably for the greater good tbh but lets face it they'll be first along in 2022 to back the furthest right candidate available.


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## bladeplayer (Jan 27, 2019)

Im having trouble understanding the uk on this one guys both the people and the govt ..  
Firstly ur government seem.to think.they are or can call the shots .. ur looking for agreement in a parliment that cant r wont agree within  to go to europe  with a deal . seems to me ye have cart in front of horse,  wasting time on an agreement that wont be accepted in brussels naybe go to brussels first see if u give something can u get something 

. Ur the husband thats leaving the angry wife trying to get out of the pre nup and expect her to let u decide what happens next on ur terms 


Can.i ask 2 questions of the leavers please ... 

Is what u were promised and voted leave on the strenght of being delivered   ? 

Would u have voted leave on the uncertinty that is there now r want more clarity 

Technicaly 3 questions sorry


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Two *hypercritical* wasters together
		
Click to expand...


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## harpo_72 (Jan 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even as someone that supported Remain I find this kind of thinking twisted. A logical extension of this is that 2.5 years after the date of your requested second referendum we will again have a new generation of voters who would also want their say so we'd then need a third referendum. And 2.5 years after that another generation of voters wanting their say. So using your reasoning we'd need to have a referendum every 3 years.

Unless of course you're suggesting that we should just have the one more referendum and as long as the vote is to remain we can stop because we'll have got the answer that you want.
		
Click to expand...

Bit like elections for government... point is ( yes lots of full stops) that referendum isnâ€™t of any value


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			General election turnouts by % haven't been over 70% since 1997, so voter apathy is not new. A few angry old leavers with hollow threats never to vote again is probably for the greater good tbh but lets face it they'll be first along in 2022 to back the furthest right candidate available.

Click to expand...

What was the turnout in the referendum?
Why are you so acrimonious, is it necessary, other than getting a 'Like' from LP.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Im having trouble understanding the uk on this one guys both the people and the govt .. 
Firstly ur government seem.to think.they are or can call the shots .. ur looking for agreement in a parliment that cant r wont agree within  to go to europe  with a deal . seems to me ye have cart in front of horse,  wasting time on an agreement that wont be accepted in brussels naybe go to brussels first see if u give something can u get something

. Ur the husband thats leaving the angry wife trying to get out of the pre nup and expect her to let u decide what happens next on ur terms


Can.i ask 2 questions of the leavers please ...

Is what u were promised and voted leave on the strenght of being delivered   ?

Would u have voted leave on the uncertinty that is there now r want more clarity

Technicaly 3 questions sorry
		
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No
Yes
No


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Bit like elections for government... point is ( yes lots of full stops) that referendum isnâ€™t of any value
		
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Then why should any other be of any value?  Please attempt a reply without insults.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Then why should any other be of any value?  Please attempt a reply without insults.
		
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Itâ€™s just an opinion pole, a snap shot in time ... try not to be condescending


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Bit like elections for government... point is ( yes lots of full stops) that referendum isnâ€™t of any value
		
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So why would your suggested second referendum be any different? If that also isn't of any value then there's no point going the expense and hassle of holding it. 

Let's face facts. The only reason you want a second vote is because your side lost the first one. It all boils down to you refusing to accept the result and trying to come up with ever more desperate excuses to get the result reversed.


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## User62651 (Jan 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What was the turnout in the referendum?
*Why are you so acrimonious, is it necessary, other than getting a 'Like' from LP*.
		
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You love us really!


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

Second referendum; irrespective of the validity of asking for it, who is asking for it? Has there been any of the headline Leavers saying "now we have more information, we need to review this."

Personally, I'm ambivalent to it. Given the opportunity I'd vote Remain again, and I expect Remain would win because of all the propaganda.

But for those who hang their hat on old people will have died and more young people would vote. Factually correct but you're hanging your hat on old people dying... Mmm, nice.

Some maths to contemplate on that one. Just under 600,000 people die a year. That's 1,500,000 people will have died in the last 2.5 years. Not all of them fall into the old people band but for the sake of this example, 1.3m fall into that band. 71% of old people voted Leave = just over 800,000 Leave voters. Some of the new voters, basing it around the demographic at the younger end, would vote Leave. Then consider the flip-flop voters. Remain may well win but by such a small number you're talking 50.01%-ish 'v' 49.99%-ish.

Using the stereotyping, whether its factual or otherwise, think about the social unrest that there's been in the last 40 years. The Brits don't do social unrest very well, apart from a strongly worded letter to their paper of choice. However, think Poll tax riots. Who rioted? Which end of the social ladder rioted? And then ask a question, based on the demographics of who voted Leave, would there be riots?

And then there's the "we'll never vote again brigade." Laugh at it if you want but what happens when the divide between governors and the governed becomes too great? There's plenty of examples out there, albeit not in Britain. Even now in a very stable, civilised society like France serious social unrest, a hell of a lot more than you're seeing on the Beeb, is prevalent.

What a mess!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2019)

Can anyone explain why the vote of the new young voters [after 2016] is massively in favour of staying.
BTW I still think it was poor form not to allow 16 year olds a vote in the referendum.


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## Leftie (Jan 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can anyone explain why the vote of the new young voters [after 2016] is massively in favour of staying.
BTW I still think it was poor form not to allow 16 year olds a vote in the referendum.
		
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## Hacker Khan (Jan 28, 2019)

What he said...   https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ry-values-conservative-party-repellent-brexit  (and he is a Tory before it is dismissed as lefty Guardian propaganda)  

Especially likes the bit  "_a party cravenly fetishising the 2016 referendum as if no further expression of popular opinion on Brexit were possible; behaving as if the only thing that matters is to get out of the EU by 29 March, regardless of the overwhelming empirical evidence that there is no viable deal, and that a no-deal exit would be a total catastrophe (necessitating, among many other unpleasant measures, a framework for martial law)._"  Sounds familiar from reading a few posts on here.


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			What he said...   https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ry-values-conservative-party-repellent-brexit  (and he is a Tory before it is dismissed as lefty Guardian propaganda) 

Especially likes the bit  "_a party cravenly fetishising the 2016 referendum as if no further expression of popular opinion on Brexit were possible; behaving as if the only thing that matters is to get out of the EU by 29 March, regardless of the overwhelming empirical evidence that there is no viable deal, and that a no-deal exit would be a total catastrophe (necessitating, among many other unpleasant measures, a framework for martial law)._"  Sounds familiar from reading a few posts on here.
		
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Makes you wonder how the rest of the world survives, or maybe itâ€™s totally lawless, warring nations fighting each other for scraps of unleavened bread.

I donâ€™t subscribe any political bias to it, I just think itâ€™s as stupid as my comment above. Hysteria on steroids.


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## Beezerk (Jan 28, 2019)

So it seems there will be no fresh food on supermarket shelves if no deal goes through.


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			So it seems there will be no fresh food on supermarket shelves if no deal goes through.
		
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And no medicines. All travel outside of the UK will be stopped. Boats will queue up at Dover. What a crock of sh!t, and people are latching on to it because its what they want to hear and believe, and it supports their argument.


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## ger147 (Jan 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And no medicines. All travel outside of the UK will be stopped. Boats will queue up at Dover. What a crock of sh!t, and people are latching on to it because its what they want to hear and believe, and it supports their argument.
		
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OK, this is starting to get serious.

If there is even a hint that my ability to purchase Acqua Panna is under threat, I'm off to Parliament Sq with my banner...


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

ger147 said:



			OK, this is starting to get serious.

If there is even a hint that my ability to purchase Acqua Panna is under threat, I'm off to Parliament Sq with my banner...
		
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Whatever you do, don't wear yellow! It will clash with your mascara


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## IanM (Jan 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can anyone explain why the vote of the new young voters [after 2016] is massively in favour of staying.
BTW I still think it was poor form not to allow 16 year olds a vote in the referendum.
		
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...did you see the "teacher" who spoke at the Labour Conference?   That's why.   

And as the outcome of this impacts the next 100 years, new born babies should vote too... they have a bigger stake in it than 60 year olds


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## adam6177 (Jan 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And no medicines. All travel outside of the UK will be stopped. Boats will queue up at Dover. What a crock of sh!t, and people are latching on to it because its what they want to hear and believe, and it supports their argument.
		
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you've got to award the media a B+ for effort on the daily, relentless fear tactics.  Trying to hit people exactly where it hurts on the off chance that there is another vote and people are so scared of the world imploding that they'll vote how they want us to.

Laughable.


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## Mudball (Jan 28, 2019)

...  as there is no impact on my Single Malt (locally produce) and Cigars (my American friends get me my supplies).. i say we leave without a deal.   Who goes to Lidl anyways?


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## bladeplayer (Jan 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And no medicines. All travel outside of the UK will be stopped. Boats will queue up at Dover. What a crock of sh!t, and people are latching on to it because its what they want to hear and believe, and it supports their argument.
		
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We buy most of our generic medicines from uk seemingly .. stock piling now .. im relying on ye lot leaving for a new job . Stil think ye nuts but hurry up im sick of d car business ðŸ˜†ðŸ˜†


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## spongebob59 (Jan 28, 2019)




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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2019)

IanM said:



			...did you see the "teacher" who spoke at the Labour Conference?   That's why.  

And as the outcome of this impacts the next 100 years, new born babies should vote too... they have a bigger stake in it than 60 year olds

Click to expand...

No I did not see the teacher at the conference.
Pity I missed it as he/she must have been a hell of a speaker to influence over a million youngsters.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			you've got to award the media a B+ for effort on the daily, relentless fear tactics.  Trying to hit people exactly where it hurts on the off chance that there is another vote and people are so scared of the world imploding that they'll vote how they want us to.

Laughable.
		
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I'm bookmarking that one for Scots IndyRef2


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I'm bookmarking that one for Scots IndyRef2 

Click to expand...

I believe the term was "Once in a generation" , looks like you've dipped.


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## IanM (Jan 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No I did not see the teacher at the conference.
Pity I missed it as he/she must have been a hell of a speaker to influence over a million youngsters.

Click to expand...

Shame, I was expecting better...


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## drdel (Jan 28, 2019)

Mudball said:



			...  as there is no impact on my Single Malt (locally produce) and *Cigars (my American friends get me my supplies)*.. i say we leave without a deal.   Who goes to Lidl anyways?
		
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Good grief are you really claiming you can import stuff from outside of the EU - twill never catch on


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## Mudball (Jan 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Good grief are you really claiming you can import stuff from outside of the EU - twill never catch on

Click to expand...

I could sell you some too


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:








Click to expand...

I agree


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## Slime (Jan 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can anyone explain why the vote of the new young voters [after 2016] is massively in favour of staying.
BTW* I still think it was poor form not to allow 16 year olds a vote* in the referendum.
		
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I wouldn't allow anyone under the age of 21 to vote.


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

Slime said:



			I wouldn't allow anyone under the age of 21 to vote.
		
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You wouldn't have to worry about that. The majority wouldn't get out of bed in time. And of course, if it was raining...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 28, 2019)

Slime said:



			I wouldn't allow anyone under the age of 21 to vote.
		
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Can I ask why ? If someone can join the Army and defend your rights why canâ€™t they vote ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2019)

Slime said:



			I wouldn't allow anyone under the age of 21 to vote.
		
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Why?

PS.... Like others before you, why did make a comment on my post yet fail to answer the question posed.


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## Slime (Jan 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Can I ask why ?* If someone can join the Army and defend your rights why canâ€™t they vote ?
		
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Of course.
I just don't think, that at the current voting age, many voters have sufficient life experience to make a reasoned decision as to who/what they would be voting for.
I totally understand that some have, and that some over the voting age haven't, but a line has to be drawn somewhere, and for me that would be at 21 as a minimum.
I'm not sure why you brought the Army into it, I don't think it's relevant at all.


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## Slime (Jan 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why?

PS.... Like others before you, why did make a comment on my post yet fail to answer the question posed.
		
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Because I have an opinion on your post, it is a forum after all, and I don't know the answer to your question, if indeed, what is suggested is even correct.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 28, 2019)

Slime said:



			Of course.
I just don't think, that at the current voting age, many voters have sufficient life experience to make a reasoned decision as to who/what they would be voting for.
I totally understand that some have, and that some over the voting age haven't, but a line has to be drawn somewhere, and for me that would be at 21 as a minimum.
I'm not sure why you brought the Army into it, I don't think it's relevant at all.
		
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There are people in the 30â€™s who donâ€™t understand what or who they are voting for , there are people who just vote the same way every time regardless , there are people that vote on someoneâ€™s looks

Schools teach politics so it very likely that kids leaving school at 16 know a lot more than a lot of people

And the Army was relevant because if people at 16 are deemed to be mature enough to carry live weapons and defend the nation then they should be entitled to have a say on who runs the country

Itâ€™s like saying that who have retired shouldnâ€™t have a say about the EU because itâ€™s likelt any change wonâ€™t affect them in future life



Doon frae Troon said:



			Unbelievable
		
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Instead of just blurting out stuff like that how about you explain why you disagree with his point of view


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 28, 2019)

Slime said:



			Of course.
I just don't think, that at the current voting age, many voters have sufficient life experience to make a reasoned decision as to who/what they would be voting for.
I totally understand that some have, and that some over the voting age haven't, but a line has to be drawn somewhere, and for me that would be at 21 as a minimum.
I'm not sure why you brought the Army into it, I don't think it's relevant at all.
		
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Unbelievable


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And the Army was relevant because if people at 16 are deemed to be mature enough to carry live weapons and defend the nation then they should be entitled to have a say on who runs the country
		
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Where on earth are you getting your information from. Although there has been the odd cock up, service personnel are not supposed to go into operational areas until they are 18 yrs of age.


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## JamesR (Jan 28, 2019)

Slime said:



			I wouldn't allow anyone under the age of 21 to vote.
		
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I wouldnâ€™t allow anyone over 50 to vote!
Too much chance of Alzheimerâ€™s affecting the decision making (probably vote for Churchill given the chance)...the old boys will be too busy urinating (due to prostate problems) to get around to voting...and the old girls will all be too angry to vote sensibly due to the menopause.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There are people in the 30â€™s who donâ€™t understand what or who they are voting for , there are people who just vote the same way every time regardless , there are people that vote on someoneâ€™s looks

*Schools teach politics so it very likely that kids leaving school at 16 know a lot more than a lot of people*

And the Army was relevant because if people at 16 are deemed to be mature enough to carry live weapons and defend the nation then they should be entitled to have a say on who runs the country

Itâ€™s like saying that who have retired shouldnâ€™t have a say about the EU because itâ€™s likelt any change wonâ€™t affect them in future life



Instead of just blurting out stuff like that how about you explain why you disagree with his point of view
		
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Impressional Kids get the opinion of very left wing teachers at school which they take as gospel...Thatâ€™s hardly education. More like brainwashing! 
In my house we have lively (and enjoyable) debates at the Sunday lunch table with my 17 and 14 year old sons.


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## JamesR (Jan 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Impressional Kids get the opinion of very left wing teachers at school which they take as gospel...Thatâ€™s hardly education. More like brainwashing!
In my house we have lively (and enjoyable) debates at the Sunday lunch table with my 17 and 14 year old sons.
		
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How do you know all teachers are lefties?
Any proof?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 28, 2019)

JamesR said:



			How do you know all teachers are lefties?
Any proof?
		
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Plenty but as Iâ€™m 52 you probably wouldnâ€™t accept it.ðŸ‘


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## JamesR (Jan 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Plenty but as Iâ€™m 52 you probably wouldnâ€™t accept it.ðŸ‘
		
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Itâ€™s a while since I was at school, but I canâ€™t remember any teachers expressing their political views- even when studying political history!


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## ger147 (Jan 28, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Itâ€™s a while since I was at school, but I canâ€™t remember any teachers expressing their political views- even when studying political history!
		
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Sounds like you're the one with Alzheimer's...


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## Fade and Die (Jan 28, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Itâ€™s a while since I was at school, but I canâ€™t remember any teachers expressing their political views- even when studying political history!
		
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As I said in my post, I have two teenage sons, we have intelligent debates about politics and their views are straight out of the old Corbyn notebook....Thatcher evil, Brexit evil/racist, capitalism bad. Unions good (I agree with that btw) Etc etc.


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## Sweep (Jan 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The comparisons are a touch over dramatic- if there is to be any change on Art 50 and a change of thinking then I suspect there will be a second democratic vote of some sort. So democracy will still continue
		
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Yes, I am sure everyone who has had to live in a undemocratic country thought that things that happen there are a tad over dramatic. This stuff isnâ€™t myth. It happened and is happening now. But if you want to play with fire for the sake of letting others interfere with the running of your country, crack on.
I canâ€™t see how there can be changes to A50 other than to delay it or revoke it. The only way to revoke it â€œdemocraticallyâ€ would be to have another vote and we all know the only reason why that is even being discussed.
I want a second referendum = my side lost and I want another go.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 28, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Sounds like you're the one with Alzheimer's...
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## JamesR (Jan 28, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Sounds like you're the one with Alzheimer's...
		
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We didnâ€™t do any current politics when I was st school


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## JamesR (Jan 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			As I said in my post, I have two teenage sons, we have intelligent debates about politics and their views are straight out of the old Corbyn notebook....Thatcher evil, Brexit evil/racist, capitalism bad. Unions good (I agree with that btw) Etc etc.
		
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Must be a current issue. Or a local one.

Regards unions, I donâ€™t like them, purely for the fact I donâ€™t believe they should be necessary. But as they are still needed to protect workers rights, they are a necessity. In reality employment law, when properly devised and implemented should render them redundant.


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## MegaSteve (Jan 28, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Itâ€™s a while since I was at school, but I canâ€™t remember any teachers expressing their political views- even when studying political history!
		
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Interesting... Been fifty years since I left school and I can fully recollect one teacher telling us how wrong Enoch was.... And, I am supposed to be the incoherent incontinent one...


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## Fade and Die (Jan 28, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Must be a current issue. Or a local one.

Regards unions, I donâ€™t like them, purely for the fact I donâ€™t believe they should be necessary. But as they are still needed to protect workers rights, they are a necessity. In reality employment law, when properly devised and implemented should render them redundant.
		
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Itâ€™s not a taught subject, itâ€™s just the views of the teachers that they pick up. 
Re unions thatâ€™s a whole other subject, they shouldnâ€™t be necessary but are.


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## JamesR (Jan 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Itâ€™s not a taught subject, itâ€™s just the views of the teachers that they pick up.
Re unions thatâ€™s a whole other subject, they shouldnâ€™t be necessary but are.
		
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Sorry, I thought you meant politics classes. ðŸ‘
Agree re unions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 28, 2019)

[QUOTE="Sweep said:



			Yes, I am sure everyone who has had to live in a undemocratic country thought that things that happen there are a tad over dramatic. This stuff isnâ€™t myth. It happened and is happening now. But if you want to play with fire for the sake of letting others interfere with the running of your country, crack on.
I canâ€™t see how there can be changes to A50 other than to delay it or revoke it. The only way to revoke it â€œdemocraticallyâ€ would be to have another vote and we all know the only reason why that is even being discussed.
I want a second referendum = my side lost and I want another go.
		
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You are overreacting- we are in no way anything like the Nazi Germany, North Korea , Iraq etc etc -

Our democracy is alive and well , itâ€™s not going anywhere and it will continue to be that way - to even try and bring them in as some sort of comparison is pretty poor.

The extremes on both sides are getting worse by the day for goodness sake 

We the public have always been able to have our say - thatâ€™s not going to change for goodness sake 


Fade and Die said:



			Impressional Kids get the opinion of very left wing teachers at school which they take as gospel...Thatâ€™s hardly education. More like brainwashing!
In my house we have lively (and enjoyable) debates at the Sunday lunch table with my 17 and 14 year old sons.
		
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Seriously ? Can you judge every single school and teacher the same ? Not in any way. 

Why do people like yourself fail to see that others opinions maybe just as valid as yours even if you donâ€™t agree with it ? Whatâ€™s wrong with people who think on the left side of politics ? Itâ€™s just different - doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s wrong . 

The lack of tolerance is getting worse and this thread is just a small picture of the UK these days - trenchâ€™s dug , hats on - and no change of opinion


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## Sweep (Jan 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			General election turnouts by % haven't been over 70% since 1997, so voter apathy is not new. A few angry old leavers with hollow threats never to vote again is probably for the greater good tbh but lets face it they'll be first along in 2022 to back the furthest right candidate available.

Click to expand...

I have to say this is a shocking post.
Firstly, any loss of confidence in our democratic process would come at a time when, following the Scottish Independence Referendum, the electorate was becoming engaged again. Following scandals like MPâ€™s expenses, voter apathy was hardly surprising.
Secondly, you assume that most leave voters were right wing. This is simply and utterly wrong and frankly an insult to many voters in Labour heartlands who voted leave in their millions. You also seem to have conveniently swallowed the â€œall leavers are oldâ€ nonsense hook, line and sinker.
Thirdly, no-one is threatening not to vote. They just wonâ€™t. What would be the point? If you vote in a single choice, In/Out referendum and you vote with the majority and then not only is your choice not enacted, its is reversed, what would be the point of bothering to vote in any ballot? If this decision is not enacted, then why would any other? Make no mistake. This is a precedent. If this vote is not enacted, it opens up a whole Pandoraâ€™s box for the future.
And lastly and most importantly, if you are not worried about people of opposing political views to you not voting then you damn well should be. If you think that this is good because you get your way on this issue, you are dead wrong. Other than trial by ballot box at the next election, a strong opposition is the only thing that keeps any government in check. As the old saying goes â€œI do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say itâ€.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are overreacting- we are in no way anything like the Nazi Germany, North Korea , Iraq etc etc -

Our democracy is alive and well , itâ€™s not going anywhere and it will continue to be that way - to even try and bring them in as some sort of comparison is pretty poor.

The extremes on both sides are getting worse by the day for goodness sake

We the public have always been able to have our say - thatâ€™s not going to change for goodness sake


Seriously ? Can you judge every single school and teacher the same ? Not in any way.

*Why do people like yourself fail to see that others opinions maybe just as valid as yours even if you donâ€™t agree with it ? Whatâ€™s wrong with people who think on the left side of politics ? Itâ€™s just different - doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s wrong .*

The lack of tolerance is getting worse and this thread is just a small picture of the UK these days - trenchâ€™s dug , hats on - and no change of opinion
		
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You are guilty of hypocrisy in the highest degree there. I am disagreeing amicably with another poster. Whatâ€™s your problem? That itâ€™s different from yours?


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## harpo_72 (Jan 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even as someone that supported Remain I find this kind of thinking twisted. A logical extension of this is that 2.5 years after the date of your requested second referendum we will again have a new generation of voters who would also want their say so we'd then need a third referendum. And 2.5 years after that another generation of voters wanting their say. So using your reasoning we'd need to have a referendum every 3 years.

Unless of course you're suggesting that we should just have the one more referendum and as long as the vote is to remain we can stop because we'll have got the answer that you want.
		
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No I am questioning whether we should carry on with a result from 2.5 years ago which was and is of no relevance today, as it was decided on no facts or knowledge. Why should we not confirm there is a majority for this decision.
I think I know and why we have shouts about democracy etc.. although I did enjoy Rees mogg saying the queen should shut parliament down to stop them voting, it was a touch ironic.
Still havenâ€™t seen a credible deal yet. Not long now.


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## Sweep (Jan 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You are overreacting- we are in no way anything like the Nazi Germany, North Korea , Iraq etc etc -

Our democracy is alive and well , itâ€™s not going anywhere and it will continue to be that way - to even try and bring them in as some sort of comparison is pretty poor.

The extremes on both sides are getting worse by the day for goodness sake

We the public have always been able to have our say - thatâ€™s not going to change for goodness sake


Seriously ? Can you judge every single school and teacher the same ? Not in any way.

Why do people like yourself fail to see that others opinions maybe just as valid as yours even if you donâ€™t agree with it ? Whatâ€™s wrong with people who think on the left side of politics ? Itâ€™s just different - doesnâ€™t mean itâ€™s wrong .

The lack of tolerance is getting worse and this thread is just a small picture of the UK these days - trenchâ€™s dug , hats on - and no change of opinion
		
Click to expand...

Yup, take democracy for granted and see what you get. And when that democracy fails, what then?
The United Kingdom DEMANDS democracy from other nations. It has happened today. How could we continue to do so if we canâ€™t deliver a democratic decision ourselves?
Itâ€™s an old cliche, but nonetheless true. The world looks to us as one of the great democracies.
You are a military man? How many votes did Galtieri win the Argentinian election by? How many votes did Saddam get? You talk about trenches. Why do we keep having to fight dictatorships?
If our democracy fails, what then?
If we go against this decision, how could you possibly say our democracy is alive and well?


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## ger147 (Jan 28, 2019)

Another fun day ahead in the HoC's tomorrow, will be interesting to see what position we're in by the end of the day.

Yvette Cooper's amendment is a change to the law so not sure what happens if that gets passed as any extension of A50 also needs EU agreement.


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No I am questioning whether we should carry on with a result from 2.5 years ago which was and is of no relevance today, as it was decided on no facts or knowledge.
		
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It only has no relevance to those that didn't get the result they wanted. We've had two votes covering the subject in the last couple of years, how many do you want.

As to your no facts or knowledge, if you go by the media we're still in the same position now so going by your logic there is no way we should be having a third pop at it.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It only has no relevance to those that didn't get the result they wanted. We've had two votes covering the subject in the last couple of years, how many do you want.

As to your no facts or knowledge, if you go by the media we're still in the same position now so going by your logic there is no way we should be having a third pop at it.
		
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Shout louder and keep repeating... but it doesnâ€™t change history the referendum was not fought with facts. We know more now, to deny a second referendum is undemocratic. I really donâ€™t mind how many you have, I think you donâ€™t want one because youâ€™ll lose. Your worried that project fear has over powered project clueless.


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## User62651 (Jan 28, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I have to say this is a shocking post.
Firstly, any loss of confidence in our democratic process would come at a time when, following the Scottish Independence Referendum, the electorate was becoming engaged again. Following scandals like MPâ€™s expenses, voter apathy was hardly surprising.
Secondly, you assume that most leave voters were right wing. This is simply and utterly wrong and frankly an insult to many voters in Labour heartlands who voted leave in their millions. You also seem to have conveniently swallowed the â€œall leavers are oldâ€ nonsense hook, line and sinker.
Thirdly, no-one is threatening not to vote. They just wonâ€™t. What would be the point? If you vote in a single choice, In/Out referendum and you vote with the majority and then not only is your choice not enacted, its is reversed, what would be the point of bothering to vote in any ballot? If this decision is not enacted, then why would any other? Make no mistake. This is a precedent. If this vote is not enacted, it opens up a whole Pandoraâ€™s box for the future.
And lastly and most importantly, if you are not worried about people of opposing political views to you not voting then you damn well should be. If you think that this is good because you get your way on this issue, you are dead wrong. Other than trial by ballot box at the next election, a strong opposition is the only thing that keeps any government in check. As the old saying goes â€œI do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say itâ€.
		
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Unworthy post perhaps but the labour voters were struggling most under Camerons austerity, they were given a chance to give Dave a kicking.....and guess what they took it. Deny all u like, everything Brexit is a Tory idea and a Tory problem, especially hard right Tories, has been for decades. All those Labour voters that gave Blair 3 GE wins never had an issue with EU, anti Tory protest is a good part of Brexit result, not all of it but a significant part. Brexit is primarily a right wing movement.


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## Sweep (Jan 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No I am questioning whether we should carry on with a result from 2.5 years ago which was and is of no relevance today, as it was decided on no facts or knowledge. Why should we not confirm there is a majority for this decision.
		
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Before the referendum, the last time we voted on EEC, EC, EU membership was 1975. Yet the â€œunionâ€ has changed beyond recognition since then. I am guessing you werenâ€™t in favour of the 2016 referendum and are probably in the â€œwe shouldnâ€™t have been askedâ€ camp. But now a vote from 2.5 years ago is out of date.
You should also realise that everyone had just messed about for the past 2.5 years. No progress has been made. If we vote leave again it will be the same and you will be saying the same thing in August 2021.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No I am questioning whether we should carry on with a result from 2.5 years ago which was and is of no relevance today, as it was decided on no facts or knowledge. Why should we not confirm there is a majority for this decision.
I think I know and why we have shouts about democracy etc.. although I did enjoy Rees mogg saying the queen should shut parliament down to stop them voting, it was a touch ironic.
Still havenâ€™t seen a credible deal yet. Not long now.
		
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harpo_72 said:



			Shout louder and keep repeating... but it doesnâ€™t change history the referendum was not fought with facts. We know more now, to deny a second referendum is undemocratic. I really donâ€™t mind how many you have, I think you donâ€™t want one because youâ€™ll lose. Your worried that project fear has over powered project clueless.
		
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But what about in 2.5 years time when we then have more facts and knowledge of what being in the EU entails? Wouldn't we then need another referendum as that result would have no relevance? What if an EU army was created? What if there was a move towards greater federalism? What if the position of EU finance minister was created that could over-rule individual countries budget decisions? If we have another referendum as you want then would that have any relevance in 2.5 years time? 

You wouldn't give a stuff about the new generation of people that have become eligible to vote in the last 2.5 years if they didn't agree with your opinion. It's not about democracy or the fact that denying a second referendum would be undemocratic. It's because the result of the first referendum didn't go your way and you can't accept it.


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## Sweep (Jan 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Unworthy post perhaps but the labour voters were struggling most under Camerons austerity, they were given a chance to give Dave a kicking.....and guess what they took it. Deny all u like, everything Brexit is a Tory idea and a Tory problem, especially hard right Tories, has been for decades. All those Labour voters that gave Blair 3 GE wins never had an issue with EU, anti Tory protest is a good part of Brexit result, not all of it but a significant part. Brexit is primarily a right wing movement.
		
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If you believe the EU is only a Tory issue you are sadly mistaken. Labour voters voted for Blair because he was the Labour choice. Just like Tories voted for Heath and Major. Leaving the EU was not an option.
It was the Tories who took us into the EEC.
You cannot seriously believe all those Labour voters voted leave as a protest?
The whole point about Brexit is that it crosses the political divide. Just look at Boles/ Cooper and the rest of Parliament.
Google Europe A Nation. You will see it was a fascist ideal. I canâ€™t see Oswald Mosley voting for Brexit.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			But what about in 2.5 years time when we then have more facts and knowledge of what being in the EU entails? Wouldn't we then need another referendum as that result would have no relevance? What if an EU army was created? What if there was a move towards greater federalism? What if the position of EU finance minister was created that could over-rule individual countries budget decisions? If we have another referendum as you want then would that have any relevance in 2.5 years time? 

You wouldn't give a stuff about the new generation of people that have become eligible to vote in the last 2.5 years if they didn't agree with your opinion. It's not about democracy or the fact that denying a second referendum would be undemocratic. It's because the result of the first referendum didn't go your way and you can't accept it.
		
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Stop grasping at straws ... you have no argument you have been counted on all points.


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Shout louder and keep repeating... but it doesnâ€™t change history the referendum was not fought with facts. We know more now, to deny a second referendum is undemocratic. I really donâ€™t mind how many you have, I think you donâ€™t want one because youâ€™ll lose. Your worried that project fear has over powered project clueless.
		
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The only shouting is coming from some Remainer, like I said, you've had two bites of the cherry in the last 2 1/2 years (I can only presume you voted in the last election) how many more goes do you want,


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The only shouting is coming from some Remainer, like I said, you've had two bites of the cherry in the last 2 1/2 years (I can only presume you voted in the last election) how many more goes do you want,
		
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Sorry but two bites of the cherry ? We have had one vote on the future of the UK in the EU - just one. ( well apart from one decades ago )


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Stop grasping at straws ... you have no argument you have been counted on all points.
		
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I'm not grasping at anything. In case you missed it in a previous post, I supported, and still support, Remaining in the EU. But it appears that you can't or are unwilling to answer any of the points I raised. Just be honest enough to admit that you simply want another referendum to overturn the result of the first one because you didn't get your way and as soon as you get your way you are happy for the question to stop being asked.


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but two bites of the cherry ? We have had one vote on the future of the UK in the EU - just one. ( well apart from one decades ago )
		
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One of the main manifesto pledges by the major political parties in the last election was that they would carry out the result of the referendum. I obviously have no idea who voted for who but if you voted for a major party then you have to accept their pledges.


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Unworthy post perhaps but the labour voters were struggling most under Camerons austerity, they were given a chance to give Dave a kicking.....and guess what they took it. Deny all u like, everything Brexit is a Tory idea and a Tory problem, especially hard right Tories, has been for decades. All those Labour voters that gave Blair 3 GE wins never had an issue with EU, anti Tory protest is a good part of Brexit result, not all of it but a significant part. Brexit is primarily a right wing movement.
		
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There's a bit of logic missing in your assumption, and it is only an assumption. If you're saying people voted along party lines, why didn't 100% of Tory voters vote Leave, or 100% of Labour voters vote Leave to give David Cameron a kicking? 

And using your logic, perhaps you could explain that although both Labour and Tory voters voted Leave by a significant %, LibDems voted Remain by an even more significant %?

And the northeast of England is absolutely not far right. Its as Labour as you could possibly get, yet its the area of the country that most voted Leave. Numerous interviews shown on the local news very clearly indicated that the Leave vote was very much a case of "what has the EU ever done for me." And Leave was a far right decision was it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			One of the main manifesto pledges by the major political parties was that they would carry out the result of the referendum. I obviously have no idea who voted for who but if you voted for a major party then you have to accept their pledges.
		
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Sorry but thatâ€™s not having two votes on the UK being in the EU - we had one , thatâ€™s all not two just the one vote - all other votes were for the running of the UK so please donâ€™t post as if people have had two says on the UKs participation in the EU


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but thatâ€™s not having two votes on the UK being in the EU - we had one , thatâ€™s all not two just the one vote - all other votes were for the running of the UK so please donâ€™t post as if people have had two says on the UKs participation in the EU
		
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I think you'll find I can post what I think (IMO) if I feel it is pertinent. You can disagree and you can poo poo it but don't tell me how to post.


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I think you'll find I can post what I think (IMO) if I feel it is pertinent. You can disagree and you can poo poo it but don't tell me how to post.
		
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Well said.

But to be fair, under Article 13, EU regs, negative internet postings can be censored.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Before the referendum, the last time we voted on EEC, EC, EU membership was 1975. Yet the â€œunionâ€ has changed beyond recognition since then. I am guessing you werenâ€™t in favour of the 2016 referendum and are probably in the â€œwe shouldnâ€™t have been askedâ€ camp. But now a vote from 2.5 years ago is out of date.
You should also realise that everyone had just messed about for the past 2.5 years. No progress has been made. If we vote leave again it will be the same and you will be saying the same thing in August 2021.
		
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You are absolutely correct.  I can only surmise the reason these people are behaving this way is due to so many having an 'Entitled' view on life. They believe they have an entitlement for their view to be upheld and democracy is an irrelevant inconvenience.    Fortunately its not everyone from these generations but its enough to create this current political malaise that is sapping away the glue that held us together.   I just wish people would be honest about it and instead of using weasel words to cover their real intentions just own up to what they are doing.


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## IainP (Jan 28, 2019)

Do we need to become experts in GATT article 24 now?


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

IainP said:



			Do we need to become experts in GATT article 24 now?
		
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Its a nice idea but Clause 5 of GATT 24 says that agreements must be mutually beneficial and compensatory. Can you see the EU being equitable in a trade agreement with the UK?


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## IainP (Jan 28, 2019)

When the Lib dems positioned themselves as the "pro EU" party for the 2017 GE I was surprised they didn't do better.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 28, 2019)

Can someone explain how it is democratic for one person, commons speaker John Bercow, to decide on which amendments can be voted on and which can't?


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2019)

IainP said:



			When the Lib dems positioned themselves as the "pro EU" party for the 2017 GE I was surprised they didn't do better.
		
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Perhaps some people just vote same old same old and don't actually vote for what they want.


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can someone explain how it is democratic for one person, commons speaker John Bercow, to decide on which amendments can be voted on and which can't?
		
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Those be the rules, well the ones he wants to follow.


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can someone explain how it is democratic for one person, commons speaker John Bercow, to decide on which amendments can be voted on and which can't?
		
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He has a tough job. He can decide that an amendment is frivolous and should be dropped. Its something he can't win on. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.


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## User62651 (Jan 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are absolutely correct.  I can only surmise that the reason these people are behaving this way is due to the way so many people have an 'Entitled' view on life. They believe they have an entitlement for their view to be upheld and democracy is an irrelevant inconvenience.    Fortunately its not everyone from these generations but its enough to create this current political malaise that is sapping away the glue that held us together.   I just wish people would be honest about it and instead of using weasel words to cover their real intentions just own up to what they are doing.
		
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Who are these people you criticise? May and her govt are the only ones dealing directly with the EU, she called article 50 and she has been negotiating, not any of us mere plebs, she didnt even get a deal together until Dec18 for MPs to vote on. Her poor deal (according to 118 tory Mps who are mainly Hard brexiters) stopped it, not us. Joe public cant do anything but protest but you'd deny us that in your kind of 'democracy' whilst the country plummets further toward chaos.


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## drdel (Jan 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Shout louder and keep repeating... but it doesnâ€™t change history the referendum was not fought with facts. We know more now, to deny a second referendum is undemocratic. I really donâ€™t mind how many you have, I think you donâ€™t want one because youâ€™ll lose. Your worried that project fear has over powered project *clueless*.
		
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I hope insults make you feel good. It might be a waste of time to suggest it but you might want to consider that both sides of the pro and anti EU votes were based on supositions about the future. Today there still no FACTS just subjective interpretations.


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Who are these people you criticise? May and her govt are the only ones dealing directly with the EU, she called article 50 and she has been negotiating, not any of us mere plebs, she didnt even get a deal together until Dec18 for MPs to vote on. Her poor deal (according to 118 tory Mps who are mainly Hard brexiters) stopped it, not us. Joe public cant do anything but protest but you'd deny us that in your kind of 'democracy' whilst the country plummets further toward chaos.
		
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There were 2 sides putting that deal together. Have you given a thought that maybe the EU negotiating team are also to blame for not agreeing the deal till Dec 18th?


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## drdel (Jan 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Who are these people you criticise? May and her govt are the only ones dealing directly with the EU, she called article 50 and she has been negotiating, not any of us mere plebs, she didnt even get a deal together until Dec18 for MPs to vote on. Her poor deal (according to 118 tory Mps who are mainly Hard brexiters) stopped it, not us. Joe public cant do anything but protest but you'd deny us that in your kind of 'democracy' whilst the country plummets further toward chaos.
		
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480+ MPs voted to trigger Article 50


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			480+ MPs voted to trigger Article 50
		
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Don't let the facts get in the way of the right wing argument.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Who are these people you criticise? May and her govt are the only ones dealing directly with the EU, she called article 50 and she has been negotiating, not any of us mere plebs, she didnt even get a deal together until Dec18 for MPs to vote on. Her poor deal (according to 118 tory Mps who are mainly Hard brexiters) stopped it, not us. Joe public cant do anything but protest but you'd deny us that in your kind of 'democracy' whilst the country plummets further toward chaos.
		
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I refer to all who are looking to stop Brexit but not openly admitting their intentions, be that politicians or anyone else. If anyone wants to stop Brexit then have the backbone to admit thats what you want.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He has a tough job. He can decide that an amendment is frivolous and should be dropped. Its something he can't win on. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
		
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As long as he is seen to be neutral thats fine.


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## User62651 (Jan 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Don't let the facts get in the way of the right wing argument.
		
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Nice deflection, SR called people entitled, queried that. Wonder if a few MPs regret backing article 50 now, country was not ready for it.
Anyway how was the skiing?ðŸ¤—


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Nice deflection, SR called people entitled, queried that. Wonder if a few MPs regret backing article 50 now, country was not ready for it.
Anyway how was the skiing?ðŸ¤—
		
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No deflection from me, I've been a Labour and Conservative party member, like most normal people I have some slightly left and some slightly right wing views, I consider that fairly normal?

Mayrhofen was absolutely fantastic and fully recommend it but do B&B as the restaurants are great and reasonable.


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2019)

Strange choice for the episode of Silent Witness


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## User62651 (Jan 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There were 2 sides putting that deal together. Have you given a thought that maybe the EU negotiating team are also to blame for not agreeing the deal till Dec 18th?
		
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No, Cake and eat it was never going to work, delusional and self important UK govt, Conservatives weren't and aren't in agreement amongst themselves which is not EUs fault. EU have asked us what we want, we still cant tell them with 2 months to go.


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No, Cake and eat it was never going to work, delusional and self important UK govt, Conservatives weren't and aren't in agreement amongst themselves which is not EUs fault. EU have asked us what we want, we still cant tell them with 2 months to go.
		
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Cake and eat it? Lost me there.

You seem to be confusing the time lines at little. I agree that the Tories can't agree amongst themselves but the vast majority of Tory MP's didn't know what was in the agreement till it was released 2 months ago. The agreement they were presented with came, in the main, from what the EU wanted. I don't have a problem with the EU pushing for that deal but to blame the Tories for it, and the time it took to reach it, is just plain stupid. There were 2 sides to that negotiation. 

As an aside, and try not to get defensive, you seem to have jumped on the bus of blaming everything on the UK side without giving a thought to what the EU side might have done. You might be right but, equally, you might be wrong. Unless you've got insider knowledge I find your conclusions a bit of a stretch.


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## Slime (Jan 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Unbelievable
		
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Why, exactly?


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## drdel (Jan 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No, Cake and eat it was never going to work, delusional and self important UK govt, Conservatives weren't and aren't in agreement amongst themselves which is not EUs fault. EU have asked us what we want, we still cant tell them with 2 months to go.
		
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Labour equally divided.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not grasping at anything. In case you missed it in a previous post, I supported, and still support, Remaining in the EU. But it appears that you can't or are unwilling to answer any of the points I raised. Just be honest enough to admit that you simply want another referendum to overturn the result of the first one because you didn't get your way and as soon as you get your way you are happy for the question to stop being asked.
		
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What is your problem, why donâ€™t you want another referendum? Why can you not accept that some peopleâ€™s opinions differ to yours and they have justified their statement ? 
Do you accept that things have changed? Do you think we are united in the challenges ahead? 

I am not sure sweep is right saying this lot have done nothing, I havenâ€™t got evidence that anyone else could do better. Were the majority sucked in by Boris et al ? 

If leavers want to call counter arguments project fear, why canâ€™t remainers call leaver strategy project clueless? Or is it only fair that the put downs are one way ? 

Still not got a deal, yet, still not got a plan, still cannot decide. Project clueless ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2019)

To stop the current logjam I would like to see a modification to the backstop but I would also like the Â£39 Billion or part of it to be kept back untill a Trade deal has been agreed. I can see the likes of france using fishing rights as a bargaining chip.


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## Hobbit (Jan 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Labour equally divided.
		
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I think people are starting to confuse party lines with the referendum that had broad support across the 2 main parties. A 1/3 of the Leave voters were Labour, with the LibDems not far behind. Unfortunately, what should have been a cross party collaboration has turned into a squabble for power. Labour are being two faced about it at constituency level, playing a Reman game n the south and a Leave game in the north. Does anyone actually know where Labour has a whole stand.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think people are starting to confuse party lines with the referendum that had broad support across the 2 main parties. A 1/3 of the Leave voters were Labour, with the LibDems not far behind. Unfortunately, what should have been a cross party collaboration has turned into a squabble for power. Labour are being two faced about it at constituency level, playing a Reman game n the south and a Leave game in the north. Does anyone actually know where Labour has a whole stand.
		
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Jezzer in No 10, nothing else matters to most of them.


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## chrisd (Jan 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			What is your problem, why donâ€™t you want another referendum? Why can you not accept that some peopleâ€™s opinions differ to yours and they have justified their statement ?
Do you accept that things have changed? Do you think we are united in the challenges ahead?

I am not sure sweep is right saying this lot have done nothing, I havenâ€™t got evidence that anyone else could do better. Were the majority sucked in by Boris et al ?

If leavers want to call counter arguments project fear, why canâ€™t remainers call leaver strategy project clueless? Or is it only fair that the put downs are one way ?

Still not got a deal, yet, still not got a plan, still cannot decide. Project clueless ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸
		
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Answers

We dont want another referendum  because it was a once in a lifetime vote
Things have not changed, we voted out because we wanted to leave.
They have not justified their statement 
We are not united because remainers wont accept that we are leaving 
My 5 year old grandson could have done better
No we weren't sucked in by Boris at al
Leaving should have been negotiated by leavers, not remainers
I dont care what you call leavers


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Answers

We dont want another referendum  because it was a once in a lifetime vote
		
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Was it a once in a lifetime ? Donâ€™t recall that ever being decided or agreed ?




			Things have not changed, we voted out because we wanted to leave.
		
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But some things will have changed for many people on either side possibly - canâ€™t just say blanket statements on behalf of everyone




			They have not justified their statement
		
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There have been many good statements on both sides that have been justified and well thought out - shame they get swallowed up by all the sniping and bitching




			We are not united because remainers wont accept that we are leaving
My 5 year old grandson could have done better
		
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The country will be divided for a very long time because of the tightness of the vote




			No we weren't sucked in by Boris at al
		
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YOU may not have been sucked in by Boris etc but there were people who were - red bus etc




			Leaving should have been negotiated by leavers, not remainers
I dont care what you call leavers
		
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The Leavers ran away and hid - where was the king leaver Boris Johnson when the PM quit - he went hiding behind his door and walked away just to shout from the sidelines.

Leaving should have been negotiated by a cross party committee - but then it was never going to be easy and possibly should have been negotiated before the vote was cast so that people might have had a better understanding of what was ahead



Thatâ€™s a bit generic isnâ€™t it Chris - lots ofâ€WEâ€ when it should be â€œYOUâ€


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## Dando (Jan 29, 2019)

Why do people keep going on about that poxy red bus?
It didnâ€™t promise anything


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## chrisd (Jan 29, 2019)

Dando said:



			Why do people keep going on about that poxy red bus?
It didnâ€™t promise anything
		
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And it was stated by Farage and others well before the vote that the numbers weren't correct.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 29, 2019)

Dando said:



			Why do people keep going on about that poxy red bus?
It didnâ€™t promise anything
		
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Whilst there seems to be a lot of revisionism going on now, at the time it was a very powerful symbol in the campaign for leave. And fair play, it was a very effective way of getting the message across by the leave campaign that we could allegedly spend vast amounts of money on the NHS if we were not sending it to the nasty EU.  At the time it was pointed out by some that the figure was not attainable but a lot of peopel believed it, and still do.  https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...-voters-still-believe-lie-about-nhs-1-5754245


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## chrisd (Jan 29, 2019)

Was it a once in a lifetime ? Donâ€™t recall that ever being decided or agreed ?

By definition an 'In/out vote that will be the country's decision, and enacted upon', as per Cameron's speech has to be a one off vote


But some things will have changed for many people on either side possibly - canâ€™t just say blanket statements on behalf of everyone

Yes I can, just as you do on a variety of subjects


There have been many good statements on both sides that have been justified and well thought out - shame they get swallowed up by all the sniping and bitching

Agreed

The country will be divided for a very long time because of the tightness of the vote

No, its because people want democracy but wont accept it when they dont get the democracy they want

YOU may not have been sucked in by Boris etc but there were people who were - red bus etc

Just as many voted as they did because of project fear 

The Leavers ran away and hid - where was the king leaver Boris Johnson when the PM quit - he went hiding behind his door and walked away just to shout from the sidelines.

He was waiting to be the new PM but realised he wasn't going to be

Leaving should have been negotiated by a cross party committee - but then it was never going to be easy and possibly should have been negotiated before the vote was cast so that people might have had a better understanding of what was ahead

Don't disagree, but Corbyn was never going to do that and is still using Brexit to further his career ambitions rather than for the country's benefit


Thatâ€™s a bit generic isnâ€™t it Chris - lots ofâ€WEâ€ when it should be â€œYOU"

I think most leavers are in my generic  "We" group


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2019)

Some short memories when it comes to saying Boris ran away. Short version;

1) Cameron resigned.
2) Boris was one of the MP's that threw their hat in the ring for the top job.
3) Gove stabbed Boris in the back during the leadership campaign.

Whatever you may think of Boris, personally I detest him, running away isn't something that can be laid at his door.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can someone explain how it is democratic for one person, commons speaker John Bercow, to decide on which amendments can be voted on and which can't?
		
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Perhaps it is because he was democratically elected to the job.


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## Dellboy (Jan 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps it is because he was democratically elected to the job.
		
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Just like Mrs May was, to serve the United Kingdom ,but that doesnâ€™t stop you throwing your toys out of your pram every time she doesnâ€™t agree or sides with Wee Jimmy Sturgeon.

Bercow is not being democratic he is just trying to stop Brexit


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## jp5 (Jan 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The agreement they were presented with came, in the main, from what the EU wanted.
		
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That's not correct, it's what the British asked for as well once our red lines were in place. No point saying the EU has forced this on us - it takes two sides to agree to a deal.


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Some short memories when it comes to saying Boris ran away. Short version;

1) Cameron resigned.
2) Boris was one of the MP's that threw their hat in the ring for the top job.
3) *Gove stabbed Boris in the back during the leadership campaign.*

Whatever you may think of Boris, personally I detest him, running away isn't something that can be laid at his door.
		
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Hi, mind if I join in on this (3). Could you let me know what Gove did as I never understood at the time and I followed 90% of it, and still am. They all need removing I think.


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## USER1999 (Jan 29, 2019)

If the 39bn settlement is to cover future commitments, such as pensions, why is it not payable over the next 30 years?


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2019)

jp5 said:



			That's not correct, it's what the British asked for as well once our red lines were in place. No point saying the EU has forced this on us - it takes two sides to agree to a deal.
		
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There's 585 pages to it, and we're splitting hairs on who wanted what? Having read it, some of it several times, I'd be very surprised if large elements of it are what the UK team asked for.

If you are interested in it, there are bits of it that are worth a read. The agricultural clauses within it will make your jaw drop. The UK won't have asked for them. Seriously, No Deal is better than having that clause. A brief example of some of the agricultural clauses - a monitoring body will be set up at the UK's expense that will report to the EU. All tariffs must be passed by the monitoring body, with the approval of the EU. The UK cannot set tariffs for other 3rd countries lower than those it sets for the EU.


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Hi, mind if I join in on this (3). Could you let me know what Gove did as I never understood at the time and I followed 90% of it, and still am. They all need removing I think.
		
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There's loads of info out there. If you type in 'Gove stabs Boris' you will get numerous articles about it.

As an aside to that, Gove and his family used to be very close to Cameron and his family - family get-togethers, that sort of thing. That's worth a Google too. Last article I read on that, Cameron hasn't spoken to Gove since the run up to the vote.


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 29, 2019)

Also, after a discussion at work, we think May is playing for a no deal. She's come back with a bag of holly hocks which she knows no one will want, proved correct. She will not loose the party vote, no one else wants it at the moment LOL. She'll keep on pushing her rubbish idea, this will keep getting blocked then POOF ! NO DEAL by default. Job done!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2019)

Dando said:



			Why do people keep going on about that poxy red bus?
It didnâ€™t promise anything
		
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Because it was at the heart of the late campaigning by the politicians on the leave - it gave a message that if we left the EU our NHS could benefit with millions , it was a very smart clever marketing tactic that would have helped. People voted to leave because of it just like they did because of Sun headlines etc etc 

It was a very subliminal message to people and people believed it and some people will expect the NHS to get a significant amount of extra funding when we leave


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There's loads of info out there. If you type in 'Gove stabs Boris' you will get numerous articles about it.

As an aside to that, Gove and his family used to be very close to Cameron and his family - family get-togethers, that sort of thing. That's worth a Google too. Last article I read on that, Cameron hasn't spoken to Gove since the run up to the vote.
		
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so just coz Gove said boris is rubbish, that was stabbing him in the back???? Seriously? Boris must be a bit of a girl.


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 29, 2019)

And whilst I'm in here. Yvette Cooper should be removed my her constituents at the next election. She is a disgrace to democracy.


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## User62651 (Jan 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Cake and eat it? Lost me there.

You seem to be confusing the time lines at little. I agree that the Tories can't agree amongst themselves but the vast majority of Tory MP's didn't know what was in the agreement till it was released 2 months ago. The agreement they were presented with came, in the main, from what the EU wanted. I don't have a problem with the EU pushing for that deal but to blame the Tories for it, and the time it took to reach it, is just plain stupid. There were 2 sides to that negotiation.

As an aside, and try not to get defensive, you seem to have jumped on the bus of blaming everything on the UK side without giving a thought to what the EU side might have done. You might be right but, equally, you might be wrong. Unless you've got insider knowledge I find your conclusions a bit of a stretch.
		
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Time lines may well have crossed, sorry. 
Re cake and eat it - If you are in the club but opt to leave that club you cannot expect to enjoy the perks of being in the club. Brexit was sold as being just that, leaving whilst retaining the best parts like free trade and ditching the worst, like our contribution, that is what I meant.

Agree we dont know how negotiations went, no insider knowledge. Not a case of siding, there are no winners in this, both sides lose imo, just frustrated with the pretty awful scenario we find ourselves in.

EU gets treated by the media and many here as one entity when referring to negotiation when it is 27 member states all having to align and agree that negotiating position, they seem to have done that pretty well as they must value being in EU but I appreciate few have had the same level of immigration as UK and few pay as big a contribution. Ultimately 27 v 1 is not a good position in any kind of negotiation though and 26 have rallied round Ireland wrt the hard border issue despite internal friction/issues between member states and some keener than others to help us out. Ireland never had power over UK but as part of the EU it does.


If the agreement is as bad as you say (have not read it in detail, just summary) can May ever get it through Commons? Seems like she'll probably lose again today. If she does it appears 2nd ref wont happen, brexit delay wont happen, general election won't happen so No Deal it must be then?
MPs will have to accept this May deal I think as she has run the clock down, don't really understand what she has proposed changing wrt the backstop but that still seems to be the main issue stopping it getting through.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because it was at the heart of the late campaigning by the politicians on the leave - it gave a message that if we left the EU our NHS could benefit with millions , it was a very smart clever marketing tactic that would have helped. People voted to leave because of it just like they did because of Sun headlines etc etc

*It was a very subliminal message* to people and people believed it and some people will expect the NHS to get a significant amount of extra funding when we leave
		
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Aye written in big letters on the side of a double decker bus, very subliminal!ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 29, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



*Also, after a discussion at work, we think May is playing for a no deal*. She's come back with a bag of holly hocks which she knows no one will want, proved correct. She will not loose the party vote, no one else wants it at the moment LOL. She'll keep on pushing her rubbish idea, this will keep getting blocked then POOF ! NO DEAL by default. Job done!
		
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So the PM is actively trying to engineer a situation which the vast majority of independent analysis plus several CEOs of major organisations have said will be harmful for the country she governs and several major businesses in that country?  It's one take on it but I can't help thinking that it may not play well for the tories election chances if they have that hanging around their necks.  And might a slightly less tin foil hat explanation be that she knows a no deal will not be good for the country, but has a virtually impossible task to align factions on very different sides of the argument and MPs who fundamentally do not agree on how we should proceed to avoid a no deal?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So the PM is actively trying to engineer a situation which the vast majority of independent analysis plus several CEOs of major organisations have said will be harmful for the country she governs and several major businesses in that country?  It's one take on it but I can't help thinking that it may not play well for the tories election chances if they have that hanging around their necks.  And might a slightly less tin foil hat explanation be that she knows a no deal will not be good for the country, but has a virtually impossible task to align factions on very different sides of the argument and MPs who fundamentally do not agree on how we should proceed to avoid a no deal?
		
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It seems like many big businesses have been asked to egg the no deal situation by the treasury


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Hi, mind if I join in on this (3). Could you let me know what Gove did as I never understood at the time and I followed 90% of it, and still am. They all need removing I think.
		
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He had offered to support Boris in his bid to become PM but changed his mind and stood himself.


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## Dando (Jan 29, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			If the 39bn settlement is to cover future commitments, such as pensions, why is it not payable over the next 30 years?
		
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Because itâ€™s needed now to keep the gravy train running


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## User62651 (Jan 29, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			If the 39bn settlement is to cover future commitments, such as pensions, why is it not payable over the next 30 years?
		
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According to FullFact -

The Â£39B bill is made up of:

The UKâ€™s contribution to EU annual budgets up to 2020;
Payment of outstanding commitments; and
Financing liabilities up to the end of 2020.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-divorce-bill/


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It seems like many big businesses have been asked to egg the no deal situation by the treasury
		
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If it wasn't for those negotiators, Mrs May, Nasty EU, George Soros, Project Fear, the treasury, Anna Soubry, meddling kids then we would have got away with it....


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 29, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			so just coz Gove said boris is rubbish, that was stabbing him in the back???? Seriously? Boris must be a bit of a girl.
		
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From memory, Gove agreed to back Boris in his bid to be leader. They were going to be  bit of a dream team. Some people started to whisper in Gove's ear that Boris might not win the votes of the MP's but maybe he could. He then dropped Boris and stood against him. Any chance Boris had was then gone as his vote was split between him and Gove. Had Gove stood alongside him still maybe he would have won. He may not but they would have stood together. That is the stabbing in the back. Gove has apologised since and accepted his actions were not good.

The above may not be a perfect recolection but it gives the gist of what happened.


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			From memory, Gove agreed to back Boris in his bid to be leader. They were going to be  bit of a dream team. Some people started to whisper in Gove's ear that Boris might not win the votes of the MP's but maybe he could. He then dropped Boris and stood against him. Any chance Boris had was then gone as his vote was split between him and Gove. Had Gove stood alongside him still maybe he would have won. He may not but they would have stood together. That is the stabbing in the back. Gove has apologised since and accepted his actions were not good.

The above may not be a perfect recolection but it gives the gist of what happened.
		
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More or less it. Additionally, when Gove realised he wasn't going to win he plumped for supporting May and advising his supporters to do the same. Don't know what the exact protocol his but when someone withdraws from a leadership bid they usually make public their support for another candidate and recommend for his supporters to follow suit.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			If it wasn't for those negotiators, Mrs May, Nasty EU, George Soros, Project Fear, the treasury, Anna Soubry, meddling kids then we would have got away with it....
		
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If you say so.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 29, 2019)

Looks like the battle of the amendments tonight......
So long as Berco allows the Tory one through .


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## jp5 (Jan 29, 2019)

So Mrs May is going to ask the EU to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement that she's already signed off on


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2019)

I saw a great analogy using Lego the other day. It went along the lines of â€œa group of children have different coloured Lego bricks each and have been building together, however one wants to leave, taking their blue bricks with themâ€. Trying to unpick just one colour would be very tricky, and in some instances could damage the integrity of the structures.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 29, 2019)

jp5 said:



			So Mrs May is going to ask the EU to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement that she's already signed off on 

Click to expand...

Do you think she will actually look them in the eye when she makes the request or will she be head down and shuffling papers? I get someone else asking but as she spent 2 1/2 yrs on the previous deal and signed off on it she is looking more than foolish going back now.


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## drdel (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I saw a great analogy using Lego the other day. It went along the lines of â€œa group of children have different coloured Lego bricks each and have been building together, however one wants to leave, taking their blue bricks with themâ€. Trying to unpick just one colour would be very tricky, and in some instances could damage the integrity of the structures.
		
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Not by any stretch of the imagination is this a good comparison. Why do we need analogies? we're big boys we can handle the truth!

Both the EU and the UK can stand independently.  The 'structure' is not physical it is only an artificial political construct propped up by a Ponsi financial edifice of questionable debt instruments from the ECB and manipulated by the Brussels inefficient management.


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## JamesR (Jan 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Looks like the battle of the amendments tonight......
*So long as Berco allows the Tory one through* .
		
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Maybe they'll have to offer him the Knighthood first?


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## jp5 (Jan 29, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do you think she will actually look them in the eye when she makes the request or will she be head down and shuffling papers? I get someone else asking but as she spent 2 1/2 yrs on the previous deal and signed off on it she is looking more than foolish going back now.
		
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If the Tories had replaced her with a genuine Leaver then the request would have been reasonable. May herself going back is just embarrassing us further. I'm sure she will be "very clear" about what she wants though!


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## ger147 (Jan 29, 2019)

jp5 said:



			If the Tories had replaced her with a genuine Leaver then the request would have been reasonable. May herself going back is just embarrassing us further. I'm sure she will be "very clear" about what she wants though!
		
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To be fair, it's the first question that may actually be answered lately.

The EU have been asking what the UK Parliament wants since TM's deal was rejected. If they vote today for re-opening the Withdrawal agreement to renegotiate the back stop that'll be the first thing Parliament has agreed about for some time re. Brexit and answers the EU's question.

I have no idea what the "alternative arrangements" are supposed to be and why they're not written down so they could be debated and voted on today...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2019)

A view from within the EU




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=275977272757274


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Maybe they'll have to offer him the Knighthood first?
		
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They all get one when they retire [or a Damehood], even those Scottish leftie socialist Labour ones.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They all get one when they retire [or a Damehood], even those Scottish leftie socialist Labour ones.
		
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It's because they have all given great service to the country, every single one


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 29, 2019)

jp5 said:



			So Mrs May is going to ask the EU to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement that she's already signed off on 

Click to expand...

You mean she's going to change her mind after being confronted with the reality of the situation?  Undemocratic traitor......


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 29, 2019)

ger147 said:



			To be fair, it's the first question that may actually be answered lately.

The EU have been asking what the UK Parliament wants since TM's deal was rejected. If they vote today for re-opening the Withdrawal agreement to renegotiate the back stop that'll be the first thing Parliament has agreed about for some time re. Brexit and answers the EU's question.

*I have no idea what the "alternative arrangements" are supposed to be and why they're not written down so they could be debated and voted on today*...
		
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Me neither, but my guess is that they do not actually know what they are. But they are willing to vote for such an amendment that contains some vague sentiment but with absolutely no detail of how it will be achieved. Which is kind of what got us into this in the first place. Once bitten.....


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## User62651 (Jan 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You mean she's going to change her mind after being confronted with the reality of the situation?  Traitor......
		
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But remember "Nothing Has Changed" 

What if EU agree to open agreement for renegotiation and we come away with even worse terms......stranger things have happended. They know for sure we're desperate now.


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## IanM (Jan 29, 2019)

You need to read some of the commentary in the German Press this morning......they are worried about the impact on their UK exports of "WTO."   We are not desperate, "we" (as in our Parliament) are just ensuring we don't leave.   That frames all of the alleged negotiation!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 29, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			But remember "Nothing Has Changed" 

What if EU agree to open agreement for renegotiation and we come away with even worse terms......stranger things have happended. They know for sure we're desperate now.

Click to expand...

That provoked a little snigger from me.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			But remember "Nothing Has Changed" 

What if EU agree to open agreement for renegotiation and we come away with even worse terms......stranger things have happended. They know for sure we're desperate now.

Click to expand...

Yes, lets hope the UK get a really bad deal.


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## User62651 (Jan 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, lets hope the UK get a really bad deal.
		
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Humour bypass.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2019)

jp5 said:



			So Mrs May is going to ask the EU to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement that she's already signed off on 

Click to expand...

Would you prefer she didnt?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Humour bypass.
		
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Yes, that's correct.  There was nothing funny about it and I doubt there was meant to be.


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## Twire (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A view from within the EU




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=275977272757274



Click to expand...


I'm surprised you posted this as a remainer Phil.


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## User62651 (Jan 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, that's correct.  There was nothing funny about it and I doubt there was meant to be.
		
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Someone found it funny, not you clearly. Lighten up a bit maybe? Digging at my every post makes you seem like a stalker.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2019)

Twire said:



			I'm surprised you posted this as a remainer Phil.
		
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Maybe thatâ€™s the problem with this thread and into the issue as whole - the lack of being able to see valid issues on both sides of the fence , I thought the guy brought up some very valid points and provided some factual information on the whole issue which I guess is quite an alien thing on the thread , it was certainly thought provoking from him 

Oh and I just class myself as a UK citizen who wants what is best the whole country and not just a certain section who voted one way or the other


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## Sweep (Jan 29, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Re cake and eat it - If you are in the club but opt to leave that club you cannot expect to enjoy the perks of being in the club. Brexit was sold as being just that, leaving whilst retaining the best parts like free trade and ditching the worst, like our contribution, that is what I meant.

EU gets treated by the media and many here as one entity when referring to negotiation when it is 27 member states all having to align and agree that negotiating position, they seem to have done that pretty well as they must value being in EU but I appreciate few have had the same level of immigration as UK and few pay as big a contribution. Ultimately 27 v 1 is not a good position in any kind of negotiation though and 26 have rallied round Ireland wrt the hard border issue despite internal friction/issues between member states and some keener than others to help us out. Ireland never had power over UK but as part of the EU it does.
		
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The first paragraph is a sweeping statement. Brexit was not sold as a cake and eat it deal. I donâ€™t know one single leaver who thinks we can leave and retain the benefits of being in.

The 27 have left it to Barnier to negotiate for them and thatâ€™s fair enough. It would be near impossible for them all to pitch in. So far, they seem united but I expect when the deal (or otherwise) is done, I am sure some will be happier than others and some will be looking closely at the rule book to see how they can improve their position with the UK (Spanish tourist trade for example). 
Clearly some have more to lose than others.


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## Sweep (Jan 29, 2019)

jp5 said:



			So Mrs May is going to ask the EU to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement that she's already signed off on 

Click to expand...

Mrs May hasnâ€™t signed anything. You will recall a bit of a to do about Parliament having a meaningful day on that. They said no.
The EU say they have signed off on it meaning thatâ€™s what they have agreed and they are not negotiating any more. This is intransigence just when it isnâ€™t needed or indeed wise. Itâ€™s typical of the EUâ€™s negotiating style throughout brexit. I would expect the EU to move back from this position pretty sharpish, as right now the alternative is no deal. There is nothing May can do if they wonâ€™t negotiate. Parliament wonâ€™t let her sign the deal, thank goodness.


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## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			Not by any stretch of the imagination is this a good comparison. Why do we need analogies? we're big boys we can handle the truth!

Both the EU and the UK can stand independently.  The 'structure' is not physical it is only an artificial political construct propped up by a Ponsi financial edifice of questionable debt instruments from the ECB and manipulated by the Brussels inefficient management.
		
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So having poopooed analogies, you use one yourself!

Questionable...certainly, though it seems to have been fairly effective so far (the big test will come as the bonds involved mature). 

And I'd need convincing about Brussels having 'inefficient management'. They seem to get things done fairly 'efficiently' to me and the bureaucracy costs less per person for their budget than the UK Civil Service! Feel free to convince me otherwise


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Someone found it funny, not you clearly. Lighten up a bit maybe? Digging at my every post makes you seem like a stalker.
		
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 That's rich coming from you.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Answers

We dont want another referendum  because it was a once in a lifetime vote
Things have not changed, we voted out because we wanted to leave.
They have not justified their statement 
We are not united because remainers wont accept that we are leaving 
My 5 year old grandson could have done better
No we weren't sucked in by Boris at al
Leaving should have been negotiated by leavers, not remainers
I dont care what you call leavers
		
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Correct it was a once in a life time vote (although Rees Mogg did tweet we could have another if he did not get what he wanted) the vote was on leave the EU or Stay, the new referendum will be leave with deal, leave with no deal, or stay. 
But you donâ€™t want this because it splits the leave vote up and gives stay a large majority.
Things have changed, a deal has been offered, it hadnâ€™t before, your answer is incorrect.
I am sure your 5 yr old grandson is a very bright lad and would put most of the Tories to shame, but he may find the European negotiators a challenge, but hey in desperate times desperate measures. Suit and boot the boy up and send him in.
Regards Boris, I know itâ€™s embarrassing, take consolation that he has now suckered a young lady 20+yrs his junior
Your right the leavers should have negotiated, they did not, in fact they avoided the opportunity. Pretty poor effort on their part. Might be a good omen they did not, if they could not contrive to win a leadership competition in their own party. 
I am glad.


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## Sweep (Jan 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So having poopooed analogies, you use one yourself!

Questionable...certainly, though it seems to have been fairly effective so far (the big test will come as the bonds involved mature).

And I'd need convincing about Brussels having 'inefficient management'. They seem to get things done fairly 'efficiently' to me and the bureaucracy costs less per person for their budget than the UK Civil Service! Feel free to convince me otherwise
		
Click to expand...

You think the EU has efficient management? Surely You are kidding? Would you run a company like the EU is run? 2 head offices because the board canâ€™t agree where we are based? No ratified accounts? Company reps on self cert expenses? Etc etc etc. As they say darn sarf, you are having a giraffe.
And btw. The EU should cost a lot less per person than a nations civil service.  It isnâ€™t a nation. All that work has been done. This is all additional cost.


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## drdel (Jan 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So having poopooed *analogies*, you use one yourself!

Questionable...certainly, though it seems to have been fairly effective so far (the big test will come as the bonds involved mature).

And I'd need convincing about Brussels having 'inefficient management'. They seem to get things done fairly 'efficiently' to me and the bureaucracy costs less per person for their budget than the UK Civil Service! Feel free to convince me otherwise
		
Click to expand...

Not getting into a ongoing ping pong with you.

1. My comment was not an analogy (e.g. a comparison) it was a descriptive classification comment based on my own deductions.

2. I think the EU's QE level has distorted the growth of the bloc and now its stopped the debt interest the legacy will shackle member's future investment capacity: just look at the Greek's failed debt restructuring and unrepayable 'loans'.

3. Brussels is an additional level of 'management' amortised over a 350+mill population which will impact the marginal cost. Consequently the UK incurs the EU cost PLUS the Civil Service. If you want to bring down the marginal cost then Brussels should just engage more staff and thereby lower the CAPEX per head !!!

Over and out


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## chrisd (Jan 29, 2019)

I think anyone who says that we didn't know what we were voting for should watch this


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## Sweep (Jan 29, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Correct it was a once in a life time vote (although Rees Mogg did tweet we could have another if he did not get what he wanted) the vote was on leave the EU or Stay, the new referendum will be leave with deal, leave with no deal, or stay.
But you donâ€™t want this because it splits the leave vote up and gives stay a large majority.
Things have changed, a deal has been offered, it hadnâ€™t before, your answer is incorrect.
I am sure your 5 yr old grandson is a very bright lad and would put most of the Tories to shame, but he may find the European negotiators a challenge, but hey in desperate times desperate measures. Suit and boot the boy up and send him in.
Regards Boris, I know itâ€™s embarrassing, take consolation that he has now suckered a young lady 20+yrs his junior
Your right the leavers should have negotiated, they did not, in fact they avoided the opportunity. Pretty poor effort on their part. Might be a good omen they did not, if they could not contrive to win a leadership competition in their own party.
I am glad.
		
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As I have said before, the issue of whether we are leaving or not is decided. If you want a second referendum it should be to decide on a deal or no deal. Remain should not be an option. If you want to campaign for a referendum to rejoin after we have left, thatâ€™s fine. But we must respect and enact the referendum result. Oddly though, when faced with this choice most remainers lose interest in a second referendum. I wonder why?
And again, brexieers stood for the leadership. They just didnâ€™t win. Because the party is at odds with the electorate and their core supporters. 
Which brexiteets avoided negotiating?
Btw, winning a leadership election for a party in power, meaning you become PM overnight is a bit different to negotiating with the EU.
How can you say that brexiteets should have negotiated and in the same post say you are glad they didnâ€™t?


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## Fade and Die (Jan 29, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Correct it was a once in a life time vote (*although Rees Mogg did tweet we could have another if he did not get what he wanted*) the vote was on leave the EU or Stay, the new referendum will be leave with deal, leave with no deal, or stay.
But you donâ€™t want this because it splits the leave vote up and gives stay a large majority.
Things have changed, a deal has been offered, it hadnâ€™t before, your answer is incorrect.
I am sure your 5 yr old grandson is a very bright lad and would put most of the Tories to shame, but he may find the European negotiators a challenge, but hey in desperate times desperate measures. Suit and boot the boy up and send him in.
Regards Boris, I know itâ€™s embarrassing, take consolation that he has now suckered a young lady 20+yrs his junior
Your right the leavers should have negotiated, they did not, in fact they avoided the opportunity. Pretty poor effort on their part. Might be a good omen they did not, if they could not contrive to win a leadership competition in their own party.
I am glad.
		
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Ignoring the rest of your drivel the bold bit is factually incorrect. Mogg was on LBC last week and said this was fake/mocked up.


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## ger147 (Jan 29, 2019)

Corbyn amendment defeated and Labour abstaining from the SNP amendment to extend A50 so that will fail too.  Conservative amendment should be voted on soon.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Corbyn amendment defeated and Labour abstaining from the SNP amendment to extend A50 so that will fail too.  Conservative amendment should be voted on soon.
		
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Isnâ€™t there really just one amendment thatâ€™s going to really change things which is the one by Cooper ? To delay Art 50 to try and get a more favourable deal ? 
Which seems a sensible thing and itâ€™s trying to avoid leaving with no deal again seems sensible


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## ger147 (Jan 29, 2019)

Dominic Greave amendment defeated, first real biggie of the night.


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## ger147 (Jan 29, 2019)

Cooper amendment also defeated, a good night so far for TM.


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## IanM (Jan 29, 2019)

Been locked away in a secure process all week, totally lost track of what all the blooming amendments are about... but guess they are mainly about stopping it 

Federalism or Sovereignty.  Your choice, a lettuce shortage isnâ€™t really cutting it for me!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Isnâ€™t there really just one amendment thatâ€™s going to really change things which is the one by Cooper ? To delay Art 50 to try and get a more favourable deal ?
Which seems a sensible thing and itâ€™s trying to avoid leaving with no deal again seems sensible
		
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That amendment is designed to frustrate us leaving, nothing else.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2019)

IanM said:



			Been locked away in a secure process all week, totally lost track of what all the blooming amendments are about... but guess they are mainly about stopping it 

Federalism or Sovereignty.  Your choice, a lettuce shortage isnâ€™t really cutting it for me!
		
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They are about delaying Art 50  if a deal isnâ€™t reach by certain dates to get a better deal from what I can see and from what people are saying

No doubt people will see it as trying to stop Brexit - mainly down to paranoia I expect and certain being unable to see anything but what they want

It does seem that the government want to try and get a better deal or sort out certain issues ie border in Ireland etc but I suspect some donâ€™t see that as trenches have been dug and itâ€™s the old â€œLeave means Leaveâ€ and crash out no deal etc et.


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They are about delaying Art 50  if a deal isnâ€™t reach by certain dates to get a better deal from what I can see and from what people are saying

No doubt people will see it as trying to stop Brexit - mainly down to paranoia I expect and certain being unable to see anything but what they want
		
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If you're genuine about that, well said. However, would you draw your own date (red) line and say by now or we're off? After all, delaying things plays into the EU's hands in terms of extending the time that the UK pays its annual subs. And all the while the UK is paying its subs the EU is, understandably, putting in place processes to mitigate the loss of revenue. During that time, as can be seen in the agreement May has now, the UK is prohibited from setting up its own mitigations.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If you're genuine about that, well said. However, would you draw your own date (red) line and say by now or we're off? After all, delaying things plays into the EU's hands in terms of extending the time that the UK pays its annual subs. And all the while the UK is paying its subs the EU is, understandably, putting in place processes to mitigate the loss of revenue. During that time, as can be seen in the agreement May has now, the UK is prohibited from setting up its own mitigations.
		
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I just want the best deal possibly for the future of the UK and itâ€™s work force , our relationship with our neighbours and ensure we donâ€™t shoot ourselves in the foot - if that needs to take a bit of time then so be it. I would rather the best deal done over time than a poor deal done quickly to appease people

Our future should not be gambled with so quickly - it should be a careful well thought out process to ensure the best possible scenario


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I just want the best deal possibly for the future of the UK and itâ€™s work force , our relationship with our neighbours and ensure we donâ€™t shoot ourselves in the foot - if that needs to take a bit of time then so be it. I would rather the best deal done over time than a poor deal done quickly to appease people

Our future should not be gambled with so quickly - it should be a careful well thought out process to ensure the best possible scenario
		
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I'd like to think that that is what the vast majority of people want. Its just the mechanism of delivering that that people can't agree on, and that includes staying in the EU. Think about it. Take away the creeping federalism that many people believe is happening and what argument do they have?


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## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			Not getting into a ongoing ping pong with you.
...
		
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Good!


drdel said:



			...
1. My comment was not an analogy (e.g. a comparison) it was a *descriptive classification comment based on my own deductions*.
...
		
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Aka...Your analogy!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*I'd like to think that that is what the vast majority of people want. *Its just the mechanism of delivering that that people can't agree on, and that includes staying in the EU. Think about it. Take away the creeping federalism that many people believe is happening and what argument do they have?
		
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I donâ€™t think I agree - if this thread is a snapshot then I think there are lots of â€œhard core leavers â€œ who just want out regardless of any pain , there is a core of people that just want us out of the EU - doesnâ€™t matter to them how but itâ€™s done as soon as possible and without a deal if needed.


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## ger147 (Jan 29, 2019)

Amendment to rule out No Deal passed by 8 votes, first defeat of the night for TM.  But not a legally binding amendment so can't see it making any difference.  Brady amendment up next.


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I donâ€™t think I agree - if this thread is a snapshot then I think there are lots of â€œhard core leavers â€œ who just want out regardless of any pain , there is a core of people that just want us out of the EU - doesnâ€™t matter to them how but itâ€™s done as soon as possible and without a deal if needed.
		
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I think that you will always get the more ardent argument from those who want a hard line. I like to believe in the silent majority. For all the noise, the majority are more moderate.


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## ger147 (Jan 29, 2019)

Brady amendment passed by 317 to 301 votes, a good result for TM.


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## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2019)

Sweep said:



			You think the EU has efficient management? Surely You are kidding? Would you run a company like the EU is run? 2 head offices because the board canâ€™t agree where we are based? No ratified accounts? Company reps on self cert expenses? Etc etc etc. As they say darn sarf, you are having a giraffe.
And btw. The EU should cost a lot less per person than a nations civil service.  It isnâ€™t a nation. All that work has been done. This is all additional cost.
		
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The cost of shunting to/from Strasbourg each month has been estimated at just over 100m Euros/year (more recent estimate Â£130-150m/year.
All EU folk involved would, apparently, prefer that it was scrapped, but that would require Treaty changes. That move/those clauses was/were insisted upon by France - the equivalent of a 'major *shareholder* in the company'. We've been through the myth of 'non-ratified' accounts before. Simply propaganda! And unless you can demonstrate significant 'self cert expenses' I'd call that propaganda too.

Btw. I'm not specifically defending the EU - simply asking for factual evidence!

EU procedures also reduce costs too. For example, there'll be lots more Border Control and Customs folk required by UK (and other countries) unless suitable arrangements are put in place! So the 'additional cost' argument doesn't hold water!


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## huds1475 (Jan 29, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Brady amendment passed by 317 to 301 votes, a good result for TM.
		
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Immediately slapped down with a statement from Tusk saying backstop is part of the withdrawal agreement.

Comedy gold


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## Hobbit (Jan 29, 2019)

EU accounts have been signed off every year since 2007. However, with the rider that there were "significant errors."


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## JamesR (Jan 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			EU accounts have been signed off every year since 2007. However, with the rider that there were "significant errors."
		
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Not unlike an awful lot of big organisationâ€™s accounts/audits.


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## Old Skier (Jan 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And unless you can demonstrate significant 'self cert expenses' I'd call that propaganda!
		
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As it is a well documented fact that there is no transparency on MEPs expenses nobody can demonstrate if expenses are self cert or not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2019)

So all these votes tonight seems to have ended up with a positive outcome ?

It finally shows that the HoC donâ€™t want a No Deal which imo is good 

And they want May to sort out the issue with the backstop - again imo all good

Hopefully itâ€™s a step in the right direction and a bit of unity - 

I think the SNP didnâ€™t really come out of it well ?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I donâ€™t think I agree - if this thread is a snapshot then I think there are lots of â€œhard core leavers â€œ who just want out regardless of any pain , there is a core of people that just want us out of the EU - doesnâ€™t matter to them how but itâ€™s done as soon as possible and without a deal if needed.
		
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Lots!  who are these lots of people? I certainly prefer a good trade deal and i believe most other leavers do.  Its the hard core remainers that are muddying the waters on here and throwing around insults at anyone who wants to leave.  Your post reinforces this view.


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## ger147 (Jan 29, 2019)

Will be interesting to see if there is any hint that the EU might budge when TM rocks up next.


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## Old Skier (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think the SNP didnâ€™t really come out of it well ?
		
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The leader of the SNP was full of misinformation, hatred and bile. Funny how a nationalist in the rest of the U.K. are classed as extreme right wing. This idiot's main aim with his little point of order was to try and cause fear and suspicion amongst the people of NI IMO.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So all these votes tonight seems to have ended up with a positive outcome ?

It finally shows that the HoC donâ€™t want a No Deal which imo is good

*And they want May to sort out the issue with the backstop - again imo all good*

Hopefully itâ€™s a step in the right direction and a bit of unity -

I think the SNP didnâ€™t really come out of it well ?
		
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Unfortunately immediately slapped down by Donald Tusk and the Irish government saying that the Withdrawal Agrrement is not open for renegotiation. If anything I think that tonight could have taken us closer to a No Deal exit than we were before despite a majority in the HoC being against it. Unless the EU are willing to change their minds and look again at the Irish Backstop I can't see how a deal is going to get through Parliament and before we know it we'll arrive at 29th March with no agreement and be leaving by default with no deal.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So all these votes tonight seems to have ended up with a positive outcome ?

It finally shows that the HoC donâ€™t want a No Deal which imo is good

And they want May to sort out the issue with the backstop - again imo all good

Hopefully itâ€™s a step in the right direction and a bit of unity -

I think the SNP didnâ€™t really come out of it well ?
		
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Without the backup of no deal the UK loses the only thing the EU fear from us. It means they can offer any deal that suits them and we have nothing to counter it with but pointless groveling.  I wonder what the view would be if the right to walk out was removed from trade unions.


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## Mudball (Jan 29, 2019)

So the HoC has agreed they dont want a no-deal, they want an 'alternative' which they cant define.  And now they want TMay to go back to Brusslles to find another deal.  She will need a good copy of Trumps 'art of deal' or something...    

Today sums up the whole Brexit Referendum in a nutshell...   People know what they dont want (based on opinions), but cant agree what they want and then they all vote for their fearless leader to go and negotiate it the EU and get a good deal...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The leader of the SNP was full of misinformation, hatred and bile. Funny how a nationalist in the rest of the U.K. are classed as extreme right wing. This idiot's main aim with his little point of order was to try and cause fear and suspicion amongst the people of NI IMO.
		
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It was very poor bringing in the Good Friday agreement - it almost felt like a teddy throwing moment because his motion was severely beaten 



ColchesterFC said:



			Unfortunately immediately slapped down by Donald Tusk and the Irish government saying that the Withdrawal Agrrement is not open for renegotiation. If anything I think that tonight could have taken us closer to a No Deal exit than we were before despite a majority in the HoC being against it. Unless the EU are willing to change their minds and look again at the Irish Backstop I can't see how a deal is going to get through Parliament and before we know it we'll arrive at 29th March with no agreement and be leaving by default with no deal.
		
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You would hope itâ€™s someone just sounding off but whilst the EU need to look after themselves which is their right , there will also need to be some leeway - I still donâ€™t think we will leave with a No Deal in 29th March


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You would hope itâ€™s someone just sounding off but whilst the EU need to look after themselves which is their right , there will also need to be some leeway - I still donâ€™t think we will leave with a No Deal in 29th March
		
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The EU do need to look after themselves but they also need to look after their member states and I suspect many of them are not going to be happy if the EU refuses to negotiate and it ends up with us leaving with no deal.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The EU do need to look after themselves but they also need to look after their member states and I suspect many of them are not going to be happy if the EU refuses to negotiate and it ends up with us leaving with no deal.
		
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You could argue that they are looking after one of their member states, Ireland. And the current noises coming out of the EU is that they will not compromise on a hard border and the backstop for the sake of us threatening to not buy BMWs etc.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You could argue that they are looking after one of their member states, Ireland. And the current noises coming out of the EU is that they will not compromise on a hard border and the backstop for the sake of us threatening to not buy BMWs etc.
		
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But are they looking after that one member to the detriment to others? And the EU have recently said that in the event of a No Deal Brexit they will look at other solutions to avoid a hard border in Ireland. So why can't they look at those solutions as an alternative to the backstop?

I have one question that isn't directly related to your reply...... why couldn't the 'border' be put in place around the whole island of Ireland and the UK rather than internally. I know technically this would create an internal border within the EU which I assume would be considered unacceptable but the vast majority of imports/exports to and from Ireland come or go via the UK through Liverpool/Holyhead and Dublin (see link below). If these lorries when arriving from the EU were checked, in some way, on arrival in the UK then they could be cleared for onward travel to Ireland/NI, and the same the other way when they arrived in the EU. It's possible/likely that I am missing a very good reason why this wouldn't work but I can't think of it. A No Deal Brexit would mean that all lorries from the EU would need to have some kind of checks on arrival at British ports. They would then travel across the UK and get on a ferry to Ireland where they would then need some more checks on arrival. This would be very bad news for Ireland as they rely heavily on their trade with the rest of the UK but also on their imports and exports travelling via the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44657460


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## Sweep (Jan 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			The cost of shunting to/from Strasbourg each month has been estimated at just over 100m Euros/year (more recent estimate Â£130-150m/year.
All EU folk involved would, apparently, prefer that it was scrapped, but that would require Treaty changes. That move/those clauses was/were insisted upon by France - the equivalent of a 'major *shareholder* in the company'. We've been through the myth of 'non-ratified' accounts before. Simply propaganda! And unless you can demonstrate significant 'self cert expenses' I'd call that propaganda too.

Btw. I'm not specifically defending the EU - simply asking for factual evidence!

EU procedures also reduce costs too. For example, there'll be lots more Border Control and Customs folk required by UK (and other countries) unless suitable arrangements are put in place! So the 'additional cost' argument doesn't hold water!
		
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Just because they have all allegedly had an alleluia moment and realised that moving to Strasbourg and back is just stupid and costly doesnâ€™t mean the EU is well managed. The very fact that changing this requires a treaty should tell you all you need to know about EU management. Still, one thing they are good at is treaties, so you would think they would have sorted this by now. Well, they would have done if they were well managed.

Claiming that the EU saves costs on things like border control is utter nonsense. The Irish border is in the news right now. What costs did it save there? Has the EU saved anyone even the Â£150m a year you say moving to Strasbourg and back costs? This is all additional costs that other nations the world over donâ€™t pay. They donâ€™t need it and neither do we. Itâ€™s just another level of government brought in to run a trade deal.
As for expenses a 4 second google search will confirm it for you. This one, from the pro EU Guardian tells us how an EU court ruled against making EU expense claims transparent. Who would have guessed that was going to happen? It tells us all about an MEPâ€™s Â£7,705 per month salary, plus pension. It tells us how, even when they lose their seat or just leave they get up to â‚¬206,000 golden goodbye. It goes on to say how they receive â‚¬4,416 a month to run their office with no receipts required, which alone costs us all â‚¬40 million a year. And if thatâ€™s not enough they receive â‚¬313 a day for hotel and living costs when in Brussels and Strasbourg, no receipts required. In addition they are refunded for all first class travel expenses, details of which are kept secret from the public, civil society and the press.
So, are you still calling â€œself cert expensesâ€ propaganda? Thought not.
Well managed my arse.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/25/mep-expenses-eu-court-ruling


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## Sweep (Jan 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			EU accounts have been signed off every year since 2007. However, with the rider that there were "significant errors."
		
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Imagine a limited company trying to get away with that. Oh, and best not mention before 2007.


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## Sweep (Jan 30, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Not unlike an awful lot of big organisationâ€™s accounts/audits.
		
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Awful lot? Can you name any?
I will give you two. Tesco, business and staff in deep poo for it and Patisserie Valerie with ex company officials looking at jail. Can you name one EU official who has gone to jail for â€œsignificant errorsâ€ in EU accounts? 
Three more small but significant points:
1. EU accounts are dealing with huge sums of money. Billions in fact.
2. EU money is not EU money. Itâ€™s public money.
3. Just because a few companies acted wrongly and illegally does not mean a government can do too.


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## Dando (Jan 30, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Correct it was a once in a life time vote (although Rees Mogg did tweet we could have another if he did not get what he wanted) the vote was on leave the EU or Stay, the new referendum will be leave with deal, leave with no deal, or stay. 
But you donâ€™t want this because it splits the leave vote up and gives stay a large majority.
Things have changed, a deal has been offered, it hadnâ€™t before, your answer is incorrect.
I am sure your 5 yr old grandson is a very bright lad and would put most of the Tories to shame, but he may find the European negotiators a challenge, but hey in desperate times desperate measures. Suit and boot the boy up and send him in.
Regards Boris, I know itâ€™s embarrassing, take consolation that he has now suckered a young lady 20+yrs his junior
Your right the leavers should have negotiated, they did not, in fact they avoided the opportunity. Pretty poor effort on their part. Might be a good omen they did not, if they could not contrive to win a leadership competition in their own party. 
I am glad.
		
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Why will the new vote have to have a stay option when its already been decided to leave? 
youâ€™re like a broken record


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## Sweep (Jan 30, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			But are they looking after that one member to the detriment to others? And the EU have recently said that in the event of a No Deal Brexit they will look at other solutions to avoid a hard border in Ireland. So why can't they look at those solutions as an alternative to the backstop?

I have one question that isn't directly related to your reply...... why couldn't the 'border' be put in place around the whole island of Ireland and the UK rather than internally. I know technically this would create an internal border within the EU which I assume would be considered unacceptable but the vast majority of imports/exports to and from Ireland come or go via the UK through Liverpool/Holyhead and Dublin (see link below). If these lorries when arriving from the EU were checked, in some way, on arrival in the UK then they could be cleared for onward travel to Ireland/NI, and the same the other way when they arrived in the EU. It's possible/likely that I am missing a very good reason why this wouldn't work but I can't think of it. A No Deal Brexit would mean that all lorries from the EU would need to have some kind of checks on arrival at British ports. They would then travel across the UK and get on a ferry to Ireland where they would then need some more checks on arrival. This would be very bad news for Ireland as they rely heavily on their trade with the rest of the UK but also on their imports and exports travelling via the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44657460

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If I understand you correctly your question has effectively outlined the problem. In a customs union, you cannot have an internal border. Thatâ€™s the whole point of it. The EU cannot treat Ireland differently from other EU countries, especially to accommodate a non member. Irish goods to and from the EU via the UK would be subject to customs checks and delays which renders the customs union useless for one member state (Ireland). Just in time deliveries may not be possible which is a big argument remainers make for the UK staying in. The UK would be effectively checking the EU - Ireland goods traffic. I canâ€™t see anyone being happy with that.
The EU wonâ€™t let the UK remain in the customs union and do trade deals elsewhere, because we could technically buy things cheaper abroad and sell them to EU countries duty free. It would be (and will be) very easy to buy some things cheaper once outside the EU, especially things that the EU has placed tariffs or quotas  on. Labour wittering on about staying in â€œaâ€ customs union is just nonsensical waffle that even they know is daft, for the same reasons. 

The whole Irish border issue could be a red herring. As you rightly say, the EU has done a bit of a U-Turn and said it will look at other solutions in the event of a no deal. This is the opposite to what they were saying a week ago. Veradka went from no border to a hard border to an armed border in one day last week, so things are fluid. The UK has said it wonâ€™t impose a hard border in NI. We all know itâ€™s virtually impossible to secure the border anyway. So, who is going to build it? As Noel would say, deal or no deal there wonâ€™t be an effective hard border between NI and Ireland.

You also raise an interesting point. If all the traffic of goods between the EU and Ireland no longer goes through the UK, that may be a big chunk of traffic not clogging up UK ports. We might not need to use the whole of Kent as a car park after all ðŸ˜€


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## oxymoron (Jan 30, 2019)

Sweep said:



			If I understand you correctly your question has effectively outlined the problem. In a customs union, you cannot have an internal border. Thatâ€™s the whole point of it. The EU cannot treat Ireland differently from other EU countries, especially to accommodate a non member. Irish goods to and from the EU via the UK would be subject to customs checks and delays which renders the customs union useless for one member state (Ireland). Just in time deliveries may not be possible which is a big argument remainers make for the UK staying in. The UK would be effectively checking the EU - Ireland goods traffic. I canâ€™t see anyone being happy with that.
The EU wonâ€™t let the UK remain in the customs union and do trade deals elsewhere, because we could technically buy things cheaper abroad and sell them to EU countries duty free. It would be (and will be) very easy to buy some things cheaper once outside the EU, especially things that the EU has placed tariffs or quotas  on. Labour wittering on about staying in â€œaâ€ customs union is just nonsensical waffle that even they know is daft, for the same reasons.

The whole Irish border issue could be a red herring. As you rightly say, *the EU has done a bit of a U-Turn and said it will look at other solutions in the event of a no deal.* This is the opposite to what they were saying a week ago. Veradka went from no border to a hard border to an armed border in one day last week, so things are fluid. The UK has said it wonâ€™t impose a hard border in NI. We all know itâ€™s virtually impossible to secure the border anyway. So, who is going to build it? As Noel would say, deal or no deal there wonâ€™t be an effective hard border between NI and Ireland.

You also raise an interesting point. If all the traffic of goods between the EU and Ireland no longer goes through the UK, that may be a big chunk of traffic not clogging up UK ports. We might not need to use the whole of Kent as a car park after all ðŸ˜€
		
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So reading this , the EU can go back and look again but only if it suits them ? I would not be surprised if there is a way around this in the background that the EU can pull out of thin air at the last moment
to give the impression of how magnanimous they are , giving the bad old UK a deal\way past this blockage . Why do we have to find the solution ? Is it not a mutual problem ? The Irish bloke reminds me a bit of a 
school gang member , good when he has a few mates behind him but on his own ,,,well  i bet he would be a bit more open to negotiation.


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## Sweep (Jan 30, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			So reading this , the EU can go back and look again but only if it suits them ? I would not be surprised if there is a way around this in the background that the EU can pull out of thin air at the last moment
to give the impression of how magnanimous they are , giving the bad old UK a deal\way past this blockage . Why do we have to find the solution ? Is it not a mutual problem ? The Irish bloke reminds me a bit of a
school gang member , good when he has a few mates behind him but on his own ,,,well  i bet he would be a bit more open to negotiation.
		
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Well, people do seem to have forgotten that by definition a border has two sides. If Ireland / EU want to have a hard border, it doesnâ€™t mean the UK does too and vice versa.
You are quite right, the EU has form on taking negotiations to the 11th hour and beyond. I wouldnâ€™t be surprised if they did so with this, despite all the calls for certainty etc. Itâ€™s not in their interest to make leaving easy for us. Itâ€™s just unfortunate that a lot of our own MPâ€™s have assisted them in this regard.


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## JamesR (Jan 30, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Awful lot? Can you name any?
I will give you two. Tesco, business and staff in deep poo for it and Patisserie Valerie with ex company officials looking at jail. Can you name one EU official who has gone to jail for â€œsignificant errorsâ€ in EU accounts?
Three more small but significant points:
1. EU accounts are dealing with huge sums of money. Billions in fact.
2. EU money is not EU money. Itâ€™s public money.
3. Just because a few companies acted wrongly and illegally does not mean a government can do too.
		
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Calm down dear...
Youâ€™re right, only Tesco & Pat Val have ever been naughty in the corporate world!
1 - Multi National Companies also deal in Billions 
2- Company money isnâ€™t company money, itâ€™s shareholder money 
3- no one is allowed to act outside of the rules. I donâ€™t remember stating that they could. Can you point it out for me?


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 30, 2019)

I watched most of yesterdays farce. The two leaders spoke for ages, everyone (90%) cleared off to get a bit of snappin' whilst the rest whined on an on about what they thought. The scottish bloke who kicked it off had to be told to shut up as other wanted a go. They all trooped back in after a good feed and voted on party lines barring the one where the Cons wanted it but couldn't enforce it. The best bit was when Labour didn't even bother to vote on an SNP amendment as they, apparently, never vote with the SNP as they don't like them.
It's about time we removed all these bluddy idiots and put in some sensible people to run it all. Their are far too many of them. They are nothing but a load of porkers with their noses in the trough.


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## jp5 (Jan 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			EU accounts have been signed off every year since 2007. However, with the rider that there were "significant errors."
		
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Yep, partly due to the UK electing UKIP MEPs who misspent funds.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You could argue that they are looking after one of their member states, Ireland. And the current noises coming out of the EU is that they will not compromise on a hard border and the backstop for the sake of us threatening to not buy BMWs etc.
		
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How is it looking after Ireland? The UK has said repeatedly that it has no intention of putting up hard borders in Ireland, we know what happens to hard borders there and no one wants to go back to that. The only ones talking borders are the EU and Ireland. The UK are talking alternatives to hard borders. 

The country that is likely to be most affected economically by this is Ireland, they will look after Ireland best of all by removing the issue of hard borders. It is within their powers if they so wish but it would mean not punishing the UK. It depends what means most to them.


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## Old Skier (Jan 30, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Yep, partly due to the UK electing UKIP MEPs who misspent funds.
		
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Correct but I expect they are the only ones so once we go everything will be above board.

How is it possible to sign off accounts when the EU is regularly criticised for spending millions of euros every year on expenses that don't have to be accounted for.

No transparency in their systems will always lead to mistrust.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2019)

May's triumph states the Express and Mail.
Really.....given a mandate by Wastemonster to go back to the EU with a deal she signed off on and to be told yet again......sorry that was the deal you negotiated.
Nothing has changed.


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## Old Skier (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			May's triumph states the Express and Mail.
Really.....given a mandate by Wastemonster to go back to the EU with a deal she signed off on and to be told yet again......sorry that was the deal you negotiated.
Nothing has changed.
		
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It was worth it just to see how low the leader of the SNP was willing to sink.


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## IanM (Jan 30, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Yep, partly due to the UK electing UKIP MEPs who misspent funds.
		
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Actually, no.  Read the auditors reports and you will see what they refer to .  I am talk procurement irregularities, empty lorries and buildings owned by a commissioner.... MEP's expenses are a different matter.... of course it is all UKIPs fault.  (a minor Party with little sway)

The EU have won this over the past 30 years...... little ref on here to what is comming.  But you were warned.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Calm down dear...
Youâ€™re right, only Tesco & Pat Val have ever been naughty in the corporate world!
1 - Multi National Companies also deal in Billions
2- Company money isnâ€™t company money, itâ€™s shareholder money
3- no one is allowed to act outside of the rules. I donâ€™t remember stating that they could. Can you point it out for me?
		
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Technically Company money is not Shareholders money where the company is incorporated. The Company and Shareholders are seen as two separate entities.


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## JamesR (Jan 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Technically Company money is not Shareholders money where the company is incorporated. The Company and Shareholders are seen as two separate entities.
		
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A directorâ€™s main duty is to maximise shareholder funds.
If you wind a company up, after paying off the creditors, the money goes to the shareholders.


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## IanM (Jan 30, 2019)

....and a shareholder is free to buy or sell their shares....  I wasnt aware of that facility with my tax money!  (but tell me where to sign!!) 

...so the analogy is way off


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## JamesR (Jan 30, 2019)

IanM said:



			....and a shareholder is free to buy or sell their shares....  I wasnt aware of that facility with my tax money!  (but tell me where to sign!!) 

...so the analogy is way off
		
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All I said was that a lot of company accounts are dodgy.
Didnâ€™t say it was right or wrong. Iâ€™ll let others decide that!
Unfortunately those perpetually defensive of the Brexit cause assumed I was defending the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2019)

JamesR said:



			A directorâ€™s main duty is to maximise shareholder funds.
If you wind a company up, after paying off the creditors, the money goes to the shareholders.
		
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My comment was aimed at yours where you said Company money is not the companies but the shareholders.  Cash at hand and in the bank of an incorporated company does not belong to the shareholders, it belongs to the company. Shareholders can be paid a dividend or can sell their shares but that does not detract they do not own the companies money.  You are correct that if the company is wound up then any surplus money after closing expenses would be given to the shareholders.


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## IanM (Jan 30, 2019)

JamesR said:



			All I said was that a lot of company accounts are dodgy.
Didnâ€™t say it was right or wrong. Iâ€™ll let others decide that!
Unfortunately those perpetually defensive of the Brexit cause assumed I was defending the EU.
		
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If you offer it in reply to a point, maybe folk will assume it was connected to the point?


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## JamesR (Jan 30, 2019)

IanM said:



			If you offer it in reply to a point, maybe folk will assume it was connected to the point?

Click to expand...

Well, you know what they say about assumption ðŸ¤”


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## drdel (Jan 30, 2019)

Philippe Lamberts MEP has agreed with Tusk said 'No' and is also reportedly saying that EU is now in favour of a 'No Deal', because they won't agree to changes to the WA.

IF the EU does indeed push UK over the limit then won't this require border controls in Ireland ? I suspect this might be brinkmanship to force the UK to buckle under from fear of the NI peace process. This will go down to the wire.

Might be an idea if the EU and UK started 'trade' talks now then a protocol on an agreement for the future would obviate the 'back stop' making it redundant.

Mind you the EU has form in speaking with forked tongues as anyone who has studied the mixed messages that came from Brussels during the Greek, Italian and Spanish debt 'negotiations'.


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## jp5 (Jan 30, 2019)

Can hardly blame the EU. Hardly going to tear up two and a half years of negotiation, which was signed off by our PM (who also decided to spend a few months having an election in the midst of it) only for the PM to come back 60 days from B-day and say it's not what she wanted after all. What a state.


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 30, 2019)

The UK should give the SNP a vote NOW to let them decide again if they wish to stay in the EU or UK. A put up or shut the flip up vote. I'm sick to death of listening to them whining on about it all. Give them the vote again. Only this time the vote should say

Choose one or the other you cannot have both

A. EU
B. UK

That'll sort them out.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2019)

Tory MP's acting as a baying mob to stop the leader of the third largest party at Westminster from speaking.
Home of Democracy I don't think so.

May prattling on about a Scottish Border blissfully unaware that many Scots would be happy with a border if it meant we remained in the EU.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tory MP's acting as a baying mob to stop the leader of the third largest party at Westminster from speaking.
		
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It's for his own good. They're trying to stop him from saying something stupid again.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tory MP's acting as a baying mob to stop the leader of the third largest party at Westminster from speaking.
Home of Democracy I don't think so.

May prattling on about a Scottish Border blissfully unaware that many Scots would be happy with a border if it meant we remained in the EU.
		
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It was for his own good - it was disgraceful that he tried to bring in the N Ireland peace process to score points 

And democracy was shown when the SNP amendment was soundly beaten. Your chips get bigger 

Anyway this was a enlightening read - not sure how much is factual 

https://thedeceptionscanner.com/uk-eu-brexit-what-brexits-6-ws-reveal-about-the-british-democracy/


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's for his own good. They're trying to stop him from saying something stupid again.
		
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So you support the behaviour of a mob to deny free speech in the UK Parliament.


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## ger147 (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you support the behaviour of a mob to deny free speech in the UK Parliament.
		
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Wind your neck in and stop behaving like a choob.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was for his own good - it was disgraceful that he tried to bring in the N Ireland peace process to score points

And democracy was shown when the SNP amendment was soundly beaten. Your chips get bigger

Anyway this was a enlightening read - not sure how much is factual

https://thedeceptionscanner.com/uk-eu-brexit-what-brexits-6-ws-reveal-about-the-british-democracy/

Click to expand...

'Bring in' The peace process....eh
It has been there from 2016 or have you missed it.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you support the behaviour of a mob to deny free speech in the UK Parliament.
		
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Yes absolutely, especially when it shuts up a complete **** like Ian Blackford.


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## drdel (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tory MP's acting as a baying mob to stop the leader of the third largest party at Westminster from speaking.
Home of Democracy I don't think so.

May prattling on about a Scottish Border blissfully unaware that many Scots would be happy with a border if it meant we remained in the EU.
		
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You might be careful what you wish for. The constant whinging by Scotland is wearing thin: not everything is the fault of the English.

I watched your man from the SNP and concluded that there would nothing that would be satisfactory and stem his childish, vitriolic rant.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			You might be careful what you wish for. The constant whinging by Scotland is wearing thin: not everything is the fault of the English.

I watched your man from the SNP and concluded that there would nothing that would be satisfactory and stem his childish, vitriolic rant.
		
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I want to be part of an Independent Scotland within the EU.
I would consider that a vast improvement to the incoming UK hard Brexit.

Funny how it is whinging when you relate to the Scots but  'FREEDOM' for UKOK Brexiteers.


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
Anyway this was a enlightening read - not sure how much is factual

https://thedeceptionscanner.com/uk-eu-brexit-what-brexits-6-ws-reveal-about-the-british-democracy/

Click to expand...

Kipling's 6Ws are still (and will always be) relevant!

However, interpretation of, and emphasis applied to, the answers mean that different opinions can either be formed or bolstered!

Oh and while I'm being a bit philosophical.....
I am sick and tired of posters declaring how various activity are/would be 'undemocratic'! Describing legitimate activity in this way is absolute twaddle! It may not be 'right and proper', but unless it's illegal/against rules, then it's 'democratic' - at least in the version of 'democracy' that's relevant!

The UK has a slightly different version of Democracy to that of other countries (and/or the EU) and, indeed, significantly different version to other countries that might declare that they are 'democratic'. This entire issue has highlighted both the strengths and weaknesses of UK's version of Democracy, but I haven't noted any really important faults - that weren't obvious already!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



*I want to be part of an Independent Scotland* within the EU.
I would consider that a vast improvement to the incoming UK hard Brexit.

Funny how it is whinging when you relate to the Scots but  'FREEDOM' for UKOK Brexiteers.
		
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Your country had a vote to try and achieve the first stage of your wishes and your country voted against your wishes - do you not respect those wishes ? 

And the second part is irrelevant because the first part didnâ€™t happen. And I also doubt that Scotland would be welcomed in the EU due to them being unable to be a Net contributor- would take out more than they put in


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## IanM (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			May prattling on about a Scottish Border blissfully unaware that many Scots would be happy with a border if it meant we remained in the EU.
		
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...but apparently not the majoity!


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## Old Skier (Jan 30, 2019)

I see the noises miniority is in full swing again. The SNP, who not many years ago wanted to leave the EU now, due to RUK wanting to leave the U.K. want to remain in the EU even though they try to give the impression that they want to govern independently yet joining a federal state would ensure they will never be able to.

The party that lost the independence vote need to relook at their hate strategy.


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## IanM (Jan 30, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Can hardly blame the EU. Hardly going to tear up two and a half years of negotiation, which was signed off by our PM (who also decided to spend a few months having an election in the midst of it) only for the PM to come back 60 days from B-day and say it's not what she wanted after all. What a state.
		
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Of course not.  But I blame the EU for embarking on Federalism with no mandate.  But where you are spot on is our PM not committing to her role, so all the EU have to is say "non" and sit on their hands...  they are skint with us and v.f. skint with us!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Can hardly blame the EU. Hardly going to tear up two and a half years of negotiation, which was signed off by our PM (who also decided to spend a few months having an election in the midst of it) only for the PM to come back 60 days from B-day and say it's not what she wanted after all. What a state.
		
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But that's not the way it works.  The Draft withdraw agreement was signed off by the EU and UK negotiators but needed ratifying from both the 27 EU States and the UK Parliament.   It has failed the latter so has never been accepted.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 30, 2019)

Simplest solution.  England to leave the UK.  Other countries can then do what they want.  Be independent but part of the EU (if the EU will have them without England) be independent in their own right or join England outside of the EU.

Sick a tired of the Scots banging on about we voted in the UK to stay in the EU.  No - you voted to stay part of the UK and the UK then voted to leave the EU.

As for NI they need to decide if they want to be part of an â€˜openâ€™ Ireland or the UK.  UK voted to leave which may mean a hard border - that is the reality of the situation deal with it.  

Same with Eire do you want a unified Ireland or to be part of the EU?  Currently you canâ€™t have both


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Your country had a vote to try and achieve the first stage of your wishes and your country voted against your wishes - do you not respect those wishes ?

And the second part is irrelevant because the first part didnâ€™t happen. And I also doubt that Scotland would be welcomed in the EU due to them being unable to be a Net contributor- would take out more than they put in
		
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Once again I have to explain that one of the main drivers of the No campaign in Scotland was that an Independent Scotland would be thrown out of the EU. Can you please let that sink in.

I have no idea how many of the 60% plus voters that were pro EU were influenced by that.
I would imagine it was more than 5%. especially if as the 16-18 year olds could vote 
That difference would probably have swung the vote in favour of Yes.

Once again can I say that EU have consistently said that an Independent Scotland would be welcomed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2019)

IanM said:



			...but apparently not the majoity!   

Click to expand...

Do you have any proof of that ?
A recent poll says two to one are in favour of  a fixed Border if it meant staying in the EU.


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## IanM (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon you are priceless.

You voted on the losing side in two Referenda this century, that's a bit clumsy, but of course the majority didnt understand what they were voting for.  

Scotland might or might not be admitted in its own right into the EU Federation, but I wonder how much the subs would be.  Would the Scottish tax payer be prepared to pay more to join and help repay the massive black hole in the finances?  How do you feel about handing over control of the budget?  The SNP love to dish out stuff...as long as somone else picks up the tab.  I wonde rif the EU would be prepared to do that?


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## IanM (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you have any proof of that ?
A recent poll says two to one are in favour of  a fixed Border if it meant staying in the EU.
		
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That was not the point at issue


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Once again I have to explain that one of the main drivers of the No campaign in Scotland was that an Independent Scotland would be thrown out of the EU. Can you please let that sink in.
		
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You had the vote - the result was to stay part of the UK , there were zero cavities to it - you had a referendum and the result was clear , and it seems there is no desire from the majority to have a second one despite what the SNP think 




			I have no idea how many of the 60% plus voters that were pro EU were influenced by that.
I would imagine it was more than 5%. especially if as the 16-18 year olds could vote
That difference would probably have swung the vote in favour of Yes.

Once again can I say that EU have consistently said that an Independent Scotland would be welcomed.
		
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And the Scotland would become part of the Euro zone and would have to find some way to become a net contributor to the EU - Scotland want to become independent from the government of the UK to then become controlled financially and politically by the EU.

Right now Scotland make a budget deficit each year - can you explain how that will change under the EU banner


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2019)

IanM said:



			Doon you are priceless.

You voted on the losing side in two Referenda this century, that's a bit clumsy, but of course the majority didnt understand what they were voting for. 

Scotland might or might not be admitted in its own right into the EU Federation, but I wonder how much the subs would be.  Would the Scottish tax payer be prepared to pay more to join and help repay the massive black hole in the finances?  How do you feel about handing over control of the budget?  The SNP love to dish out stuff...as long as somone else picks up the tab.  I wonde rif the EU would be prepared to do that?
		
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Glass Houses...Bricks....throwing,


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## User62651 (Jan 30, 2019)

Del_Boy said:



			Simplest solution.  England to leave the UK.  Other countries can then do what they want.  Be independent but part of the EU (if the EU will have them without England) be independent in their own right or join England outside of the EU.

Sick a tired of the Scots banging on about we voted in the UK to stay in the EU.  No - you voted to stay part of the UK and the UK then voted to leave the EU.

As for NI they need to decide if they want to be part of an â€˜openâ€™ Ireland or the UK.  UK voted to leave which may mean a hard border - that is the reality of the situation deal with it.

Same with Eire do you want a unified Ireland or to be part of the EU?  Currently you canâ€™t have both
		
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Factual and agreeable words but probably not really achievable for England to leave the UK although a referendum in England might prove otherwise. For a start the Conservative and *Unionist* party who it seems will always win in England (if not the UK) would never contemplate it. Labour always needs Scottish and Welsh votes.
In terms of defence strategically the sea lochs of west Scotland and easy access to the North Atlantic are important to the UK Navy and RAF.
Think Scotland would have to do the leaving bit and there will likely be a push for that again soon, no idea how close it would be currently. Ties that bonded people in the past - WWII, Monarchy and other things aren't as strong as they were I dont think.
UK is feeling quite strained these days and nationalism is on the rise in England, Scotland and Wales, NI is very much either pro UK or pro Eire as we know, almost taboo to talk about politics there, too sensitive.
I guess you want out of UK as well as the EU? Strong anti-Scottish sentiment, you could have said SNP instead of The Scots, most Scots wanted to stay in UK as you said, at the last census anyway.
Maybe you'll get your wish.
What comes after that, more division? - a north south divide in England, the republic of Yorkshire, a celtic province in Cornwall?


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## User62651 (Jan 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You had the vote - the result was to stay part of the UK , there were *zero cavities* to it - you had a referendum and the result was clear , and it seems there is no desire from the majority to have a second one despite what the SNP think



And the Scotland would become part of the Euro zone and would have to find some way to become a net contributor to the EU - Scotland want to become independent from the government of the UK to then become controlled financially and politically by the EU.

Right now Scotland make a budget deficit each year - can you explain how that will change under the EU banner
		
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Sorry Phil, that typo made me laugh, caveats I think you meant?


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## lobthewedge (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you have any proof of that ?
A recent poll says two to one are in favour of  a fixed Border if it meant staying in the EU.
		
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Who exactly did they poll to come up with this pish?


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## lobthewedge (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you support the behaviour of a mob to deny free speech in the UK Parliament.
		
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I seem to remember the police having to remove ardent YES campaigners from outside my polling station during the independence referendum, so excuse me for not taking this post seriously......

What was that you said about people in glass houses?


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## Del_Boy (Jan 30, 2019)

In the referendum I actually voted to remain but now with what is on the table would take no deal


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You had the vote - the result was to stay part of the UK , there were zero cavities to it - you had a referendum and the result was clear , and it seems there is no desire from the majority to have a second one despite what the SNP think



And the Scotland would become part of the Euro zone and would have to find some way to become a net contributor to the EU - Scotland want to become independent from the government of the UK to then become controlled financially and politically by the EU.

Right now Scotland make a budget deficit each year - can you explain how that will change under the EU banner
		
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Deficit is only because of UK accounting mechanism.
We also have huge debt responsibilities forced upon us by successive UK governments.

Funny how nobody talks about GERS nowadays  I remember when that was used non stop to 'frighten' Scotland.
 Strange that there was never a GREE, wonder why that was.

We will be just fine, especially once all the EU companies move their UK bases to Scotland.
We will probably follow the examples of Norway, Denmark, Ireland etc they seem to be doing very well as part of the EU.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2019)

IanM said:



			That was not the point at issue
		
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Aye right.


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## Hobbit (Jan 30, 2019)

lobthewedge said:



			Who exactly did they poll to come up with this pish?
		
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Latest poll shows 51% *NO* 45% yes.




Doon frae Troon said:



			Deficit is only because of UK accounting mechanism.
We also have huge debt responsibilities forced upon us by successive UK governments.

Funny how nobody talks about GERS nowadays  I remember when that was used non stop to 'frighten' Scotland.
Strange that there was never a GREE, wonder why that was.

We will be just fine, especially once all the EU companies move their UK bases to Scotland.
We will probably follow the examples of Norway, Denmark, Ireland etc they seem to be doing very well as part of the EU.
		
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Latest GERS report. Scottish revenue. Â£59m, including North Sea oil rev. Expenditure Â£68m. Still operating a worse GDP deficit than Greece.

"Huge debt responsibilities" just as all of the UK shares debt responsibilities.  

As for you wanting to leave, I wish you 'kin would.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 30, 2019)

Fortunately. Have not visited this roundabout thread for a bit.
But just to recap.
Theresa May and the EU agreed to a deal that the EU leaders voted on and accepted in 20 mins.
Theresa May and the EU deal was overwhelmingly rejected in the HOP.
Now a new deal has been agreed in the HOP.
TM is going back to the EU to ask for a small change to the deal.
The EU said there will be no change to the original deal, one in which TM agreed to.

Hmmm. Can anyone else see no deal on the horizon getting bigger.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Deficit is only because of UK accounting mechanism.
We also have huge debt responsibilities forced upon us by successive UK governments.

*Funny how nobody talks about GERS nowadays * I remember when that was used non stop to 'frighten' Scotland.
Strange that there was never a GREE, wonder why that was.

We will be just fine, especially once all the EU companies move their UK bases to Scotland.
We will probably follow the examples of Norway, Denmark, Ireland etc they seem to be doing very well as part of the EU.
		
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Surprised you havenâ€™t mentioned the figures or have you refrained because that also shows a loss ? 

Forced upon you ? Nope just your countries responsibility towards the nation debt - contribute to the debt so must help pay it off 

Which EU companies do you expect to move to Scotland and why would they ? 

Ireland doing well due to EU subsides


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## woofers (Jan 30, 2019)

Bit rich of the EU guys (a couple of weeks ago ?) to say â€œtell us what you wantâ€, and then when we do, say â€œthanks, but we not changing anythingâ€. How can you negotiate with that ? Surely you can only walk away?


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Fortunately. Have not visited this roundabout thread for a bit.
But just to recap.
Theresa May and the EU agreed to a deal that the EU leaders voted on and accepted in 20 mins.
Theresa May and the EU deal was overwhelmingly rejected in the HOP.
*Now a new deal has been agreed in the HOP*.
*TM is going back to the EU to ask for a small change to the deal.*
The EU said there will be no change to the original deal, one in which TM agreed to.

Hmmm. Can anyone else see no deal on the horizon getting bigger.
		
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The HOC has not agreed any deal, they only agreed 2 amendments/statements, one to say that they did not want a no deal and one to say that the backstop should be replaced by something else. But no details whatsoever on what that would be. And even those did not get agreed by big majorities. Plus 'a small change' is the backstop which is a fundamental part of the deal from the EUs perspective to protect one of their member nations.  Always has been and always will.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 30, 2019)

woofers said:



			Bit rich of the EU guys (a couple of weeks ago ?) to say â€œtell us what you wantâ€, and then when we do, say â€œthanks, but we not changing anythingâ€. How can you negotiate with that ? Surely you can only walk away?
		
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Like a cat teasing a mouse ...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 30, 2019)

Buckle up for the cliff edge folks.
How mad is May becoming â€¦â€¦..27 countries say no yet she is still going to Brussels to waste her time.
She is now so desperate that she needs the support of Labour/SNP/Anybody to get the original deal through Parliament.


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
Ireland doing well due to EU *subsides*

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Another that's made me smile.

Keep 'em coming please - thread going nowhere (well, round and round) otherwise!


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## harpo_72 (Jan 30, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Unfortunately immediately slapped down by Donald Tusk and the Irish government saying that the Withdrawal Agrrement is not open for renegotiation. If anything I think that tonight could have taken us closer to a No Deal exit than we were before despite a majority in the HoC being against it. Unless the EU are willing to change their minds and look again at the Irish Backstop I can't see how a deal is going to get through Parliament and before we know it we'll arrive at 29th March with no agreement and be leaving by default with no deal.
		
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I think your correct, the votes last night have pretty much moved it to this status.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Buckle up for the cliff edge folks.
How mad is May becoming â€¦â€¦..27 countries say no yet she is still going to Brussels to waste her time.
She is now so desperate that she needs the support of Labour/SNP/Anybody to get the original deal through Parliament.
		
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She loves a chocolate waffle an chips .... there should be a fly on the wall documentary, bet it will show no negotiations


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2019)

Worrying! But probably inevitable/sensible.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47060676

Easy enough to move back again should there be a significant change to negotiations.

I expect other banks/financial institutions will follow.



harpo_72 said:



			I think your correct, the votes last night have pretty much moved it to this status.
		
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I agree - and that's probably what triggered the Barclays move too!

Still. EU member states, particularly the main contributor(s), if not the EU itself, could lose even more than UK from a 'No Deal'!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Worrying! But probably inevitable/sensible.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47060676

Easy enough to move back again should there be a significant change to negotiations.

I expect other banks/financial institutions will follow.
		
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I'm doing much the same and have invested part of my portfolio into 5 pints of guinness.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We will be just fine, especially once all the EU companies move their UK bases to Scotland.
We will probably follow the examples of Norway, Denmark, Ireland etc they seem to be doing very well as part of the EU.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Which EU companies do you expect to move to Scotland and why would they ?

Ireland doing well due to EU subsides
		
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Haven't we been told for the past two years that EU companies will be moving out of the UK and into the EU due to Brexit. If all of these companies are moving when we leave which ones will be left to move to Scotland in the event of Scotland voting for independence and then voting to join the EU?

As for your evidence of countries doing well in the EU, you have chosen Ireland who as Phil has said has received billions of Euros in subsidies from the EU over the last few years and only became a net contributor in 2016. The other two, Denmark and Norway, are two of the highest taxed countries in Europe. And as another minor point Norway aren't members of the EU. So, do you want to become full members of the EU or follow the Norway model of being in the EEA where you will have to follow the rules without being in the discussions creating them? 

With your population size you would get around 13/14 MEPs if you were an EU member based on Denmark and Slovakia having similar numbers for a similar sized population. How much sway do you think that would give Scotland in terms of decision making. You talk about being treated as an equal partner as a member of the EU when that is quite obviously nonsense. You will be a minor inconvenience that will have decisions imposed on you according to other countries' wishes.


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm doing much the same and have invested part of my portfolio into 5 pints of guinness.
		
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 Likewise, a glass or 2 of Chianti with my Macaroni Cheese - while it's reasonably priced! Touch of 'patriotism' about the Broccoli and Stilton soup (with which the Chianti also works!) beforehand!


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## Tashyboy (Jan 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			The HOC has not agreed any deal, they only agreed 2 amendments/statements, one to say that they did not want a no deal and one to say that the backstop should be replaced by something else. But no details whatsoever on what that would be. And even those did not get agreed by big majorities. Plus 'a small change' is the backstop which is a fundamental part of the deal from the EUs perspective to protect one of their member nations.  Always has been and always will.
		
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Considering all the things that have been agreed on, re leaving the EU. It is one thing , not X number if things. Re the EU wanting to protect â€œ one of there member nationsâ€. I would think that of all the problems the UK had had with Ireland over the years. It is something we would want to do as-well. If we have a common concern, we should be able to find common ground. However one side ( the EU) say there not moving.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Considering all the things that have been agreed on, re leaving the EU. It is one thing , not X number if things. Re the EU wanting to protect â€œ one of there member nationsâ€. I would think that of all the problems the UK had had with Ireland over the years. It is something we would want to do as-well. If we have a common concern, we should be able to find common ground. *However one side ( the EU) say there not moving*.
		
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I agree that no one wants a hard border. The backstop was the agreed way of avoiding one between the EU and the UK after 2 odd years of negotiations.  We have now said we want an alternative to the backstop but the EU it seems are not too chuffed as we have not said what it is. 

I am pretty sure that if we came up with an alternative to the backstop with the odd detail here and there that is agreeable to both sides then the EU would accept it.  But it seems that, as we stand, unless we come up with some concrete proposals instead of just vague rhetoric the EU are not impressed.


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## drdel (Jan 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Considering all the things that have been agreed on, re leaving the EU. It is one thing , not X number if things. Re the EU wanting to protect â€œ one of there member nationsâ€. I would think that of all the problems the UK had had with Ireland over the years. It is something we would want to do as-well. If we have a common concern, we should be able to find common ground. However one side ( the EU) say there not moving.
		
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The EU negotiators have the luxury of not having to expose themselves to re-election so can stone-wall and grandstand with impunity while playing with the incomes of the populations of Spain, Italy, Portugal Poland Greece etc.

In stereo-typical French style Barnier 'invented' the condition that a 'withdrawl' agreement and the Â£39bn had to be done and dusted before the possibility that he would entertain setting out to agree future trade etc. There was no need for this disconnect and that's directly driven the need (in the EU's eye) for a back-stop. No two companies would dream of splitting the current state of affairs and due diligence off from agreements on their future relationship.


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			The EU negotiators have the luxury of not having to expose themselves to re-election so can stone-wall and grandstand with impunity while playing with the incomes of the populations of Spain, Italy, Portugal Poland Greece etc.

In stereo-typical French style Barnier 'invented' the condition that a 'withdrawl' agreement and the Â£39bn had to be done and dusted before the possibility that he would entertain setting out to agree future trade etc. There was no need for this disconnect and that's directly driven the need (in the EU's eye) for a back-stop. No two companies would dream of splitting the current state of affairs and due diligence off from agreements on their future relationship.
		
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When will folk stop making the analogy between Countries (and the EU) and Companies? The relationships involved are completely different! Your first paragraph even indicates as much!


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## drdel (Jan 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			When will folk stop making the analogy between Countries (and the EU) and Companies? The relationships involved are completely different! Your first paragraph even indicates as much!
		
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Sorry to break your 'rules': I'll probably incur your wrath again so I'll apologise in advance to save time. 

Relax - tis merely a comparison and my opinion. Just pointing out that most negotiations run sorting past liabilities and future strategies/plans in parallel - that's just my experience of EU major procurement projects, Government PFI's and global commercial mergers.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			Sorry to break your 'rules': I'll probably incur your wrath again so I'll apologise in advance to save time.

Relax - tis merely a comparison and my opinion. Just pointing out that most negotiations run sorting past liabilities and future strategies/plans in parallel - that's just my experience of EU major procurement projects, Government PFI's and global commercial mergers.
		
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I agree. The situation we have with the backstop is related to Barnier's refusal to discuss future trading arrangements until the divorce payment and irish border have been agreed.  We started off by saying nothing is agreed untill everything is agreed, for some reason we seem to abandon that premise.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 30, 2019)

Tonight Barnier is saying that the backstop is "part and parcel" of the Brexit deal and will not be renegotiated. I'm not sure whether "part and parcel" is actually recognised as an expression in France or whether it has been loosely translated from what he actually said but if the EU sticks to that position then that must make No Deal much more likely.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47061650


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## spongebob59 (Jan 30, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090694954958155777


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 30, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Tonight Barnier is saying that the backstop is "part and parcel" of the Brexit deal and will not be renegotiated. I'm not sure whether "part and parcel" is actually recognised as an expression in France or whether it has been loosely translated from what he actually said but if the EU sticks to that position then that must make No Deal much more likely.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47061650

Click to expand...

Suspect the choice will come down to no deal or a very slightly modified version of the current deal. And difficult to call which way that will go if it is last chance saloon time.


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## Foxholer (Jan 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			Sorry to break your 'rules': I'll probably incur your wrath again so I'll apologise in advance to save time.

Relax - tis merely a comparison and my opinion. Just pointing out that most negotiations run sorting past liabilities and future strategies/plans in parallel - that's just my experience of EU major procurement projects, Government PFI's and global commercial mergers.
		
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Those are all commercial exercises (even though PFI has developed a 'bad value' reputation - not all I hasten to add - and gone rather out of favour in UK). Completely different from the concept of running a country.

After all, if 'UK Ltd' was a real company, it would have gone bust quite some time ago! As would very many other countries. That surely demonstrates the folly of treating countries as if they were companies!

Btw. I made no mention of 'Rules' - simply a desire to avoid misleading analogies! No 'wrath' either; I agree with much/most of what you post and you appear to be well placed to comment - if from a somewhat (perhaps reasonably/understandably, from experience) slanted ('biased' is probably too strong) pov, which, again, I have no issue with!


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## Sweep (Jan 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Calm down dear...
Youâ€™re right, only Tesco & Pat Val have ever been naughty in the corporate world!
1 - Multi National Companies also deal in Billions
2- Company money isnâ€™t company money, itâ€™s shareholder money
3- no one is allowed to act outside of the rules. I donâ€™t remember stating that they could. Can you point it out for me?
		
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1. I donâ€™t recall any multi-national company dealing in billions submitting accounts â€œwith significant errorsâ€. Probably because itâ€™s illegal.
2. Not always. The EU gets its money from member nations who get their money from taxpayers. Taxpayers have no choice whether to â€œinvestâ€ in the EU or not and by how much. Shareholders can buy and sell as they please.
3. You mitigated probable fraud in the EU by saying some companies did the same thing. Two wrongs donâ€™t make a right.


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## JamesR (Jan 31, 2019)

Like I said, show me where I said it was ok to break the rules.


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## Sweep (Jan 31, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Can hardly blame the EU. Hardly going to tear up two and a half years of negotiation, which was signed off by our PM (who also decided to spend a few months having an election in the midst of it) only for the PM to come back 60 days from B-day and say it's not what she wanted after all. What a state.
		
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People keep saying she â€œsigned off on the dealâ€. What does that even mean? In reality she agreed to the deal subject to Parliament approval and the EU negotiators agreed to it subject to EU Parliament approval. The EU Parliament snapped her hand off and agreed to the deal in 40 minutes. That should tell you all you need to know about who the deal was good for. The UK Parliament took a lot longer to reject the deal.
Mrs May was prevented from agreeing the deal because she was forced to hold a meaningful vote in Parliament. She did not have authority to sign the deal, only to take it back for approval. In other words, there was no deal. Just because the EU say thatâ€™s as far as they are going to go does not change the fact that there was no deal. Just because the EU thought the UK Parliament might be daft enough to agree the deal does not change the fact that without both Parliaments approval, there was no deal.


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## Sweep (Jan 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Like I said, show me where I said it was ok to break the rules.
		
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Show me where I said you said it was OK to break the rules. ðŸ˜€ I didnâ€™t. I did say you mitigated the EU breaking the law by saying some companies did the same thing. Which you did.


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## Sweep (Jan 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tory MP's acting as a baying mob to stop the leader of the third largest party at Westminster from speaking.
Home of Democracy I don't think so.

May prattling on about a Scottish Border blissfully unaware that many Scots would be happy with a border if it meant we remained in the EU.
		
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Many or a majority?


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## Sweep (Jan 31, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I want to be part of an Independent Scotland within the EU.
I would consider that a vast improvement to the incoming UK hard Brexit.

Funny how it is whinging when you relate to the Scots but  'FREEDOM' for UKOK Brexiteers.
		
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Keep dreaming.


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## JamesR (Jan 31, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Show me where I said you said it was OK to break the rules. ðŸ˜€ I didnâ€™t. I did say you mitigated the EU breaking the law by saying some companies did the same thing. Which you did.
		
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No I didnâ€™t, you think I did, but youâ€™re wrong.


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## Sweep (Jan 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			No I didnâ€™t, you think I did, but youâ€™re wrong.
		
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You did. You say you didnâ€™t, but you did.ðŸ˜€


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## chrisd (Jan 31, 2019)

Sweep said:



			People keep saying she â€œsigned off on the dealâ€. What does that even mean? In reality she agreed to the deal subject to Parliament approval and the EU negotiators agreed to it subject to EU Parliament approval. The EU Parliament snapped her hand off and agreed to the deal in 40 minutes. That should tell you all you need to know about who the deal was good for. The UK Parliament took a lot longer to reject the deal.
Mrs May was prevented from agreeing the deal because she was forced to hold a meaningful vote in Parliament. She did not have authority to sign the deal, only to take it back for approval. In other words, there was no deal. Just because the EU say thatâ€™s as far as they are going to go does not change the fact that there was no deal. Just because the EU thought the UK Parliament might be daft enough to agree the deal does not change the fact that without both Parliaments approval, there was no deal.
		
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It seems that the 7 most important words have been forgotten by many

"Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"


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## Hobbit (Jan 31, 2019)

Cracks appearing? The Polish president has met with Merkel and asked her to use her influence with the EU negotiators to bend a little. He wants a Deal, not a No Deal.

Dutch fruit and veg growers appeal to their govt to put pressure on Brussels. The Dutch export â‚¬1.2bn worth of fruit and veg to the UK. They are already contracted to deliver after Brexit and are concerned that they won't be able to do so.


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## oxymoron (Jan 31, 2019)

Sweep said:



			People keep saying she â€œsigned off on the dealâ€. What does that even mean? In reality she agreed to the deal subject to Parliament approval and the EU negotiators agreed to it subject to EU Parliament approval. The EU Parliament snapped her hand off and agreed to the deal in 40 minutes. That should tell you all you need to know about who the deal was good for. The UK Parliament took a lot longer to reject the deal.
Mrs May was prevented from agreeing the deal because she was forced to hold a meaningful vote in Parliament. She did not have authority to sign the deal, only to take it back for approval. In other words, there was no deal. Just because the EU say thatâ€™s as far as they are going to go does not change the fact that there was no deal. Just because the EU thought the UK Parliament might be daft enough to agree the deal does not change the fact that without both Parliaments approval, there was no deal.
		
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I thought this was the case as well , i cannot remember someone saying the remaining EU members voted on it either but i am getting Brexit bamboozled now there is so much rubbish\fantasy\falsehoods* flying about !
Its about time we realised we are all part of the UK and stopped this pointless regional infighting it just stirs the pot , a lot of opportunism by various parties does no good what so ever and if people are too blinded by
their hate for others,   well its time you took a good look at yourselves .I for one am sick and tired of some of the Scots contingent laying everything they perceive wrong with the world at Englands door , its been snowing
is that our fault as well ? , bloody hell lets give misplaced patriotism a rest untill we sort the current situation out . And please note i said "some of the Scots contingent"   .
* select the one you want


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## User62651 (Jan 31, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			I thought this was the case as well , i cannot remember someone saying the remaining EU members voted on it either but i am getting Brexit bamboozled now there is so much rubbish\fantasy\falsehoods* flying about !
Its about time we realised we are all part of the UK and stopped this pointless regional infighting it just stirs the pot , a lot of opportunism by various parties does no good what so ever and if people are too blinded by
their hate for others,   well its time you took a good look at yourselves .*I for one am sick and tired of some of the Scots contingent laying everything they perceive wrong with the world at Englands door* , its been snowing
is that our fault as well ? , bloody hell lets give misplaced patriotism a rest untill we sort the current situation out . And please note i said "some of the Scots contingent"   .
* select the one you want
		
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It's Brexit not 'everything'. No different to 'some' of the English blaming everything they perceive wrong with the world at the EU's door. Some of us are sick of that too.
We Scots have no say in this Brexit really, always outvoted so there will be frustration from 'some' in that. You should be happy that having a moan is *all* we Scots can do wrt Brexit, England has the power in this.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			It's Brexit not 'everything'. No different to 'some' of the English blaming everything they perceive wrong with the world at the EU's door. Some of us are sick of that too.
*We Scots have no say in this Brexit really*, always outvoted so there will be frustration from 'some' in that. You should be happy that having a moan is *all* we Scots can do wrt Brexit, England has the power in this. 

Click to expand...

You have had the same say in this as we did - one vote ? we English havent had any extra say , no extra vote - the government who speak for all UK are the ones doing the deal 

The vote was as a whole UK not single countries within the union


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## oxymoron (Jan 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			It's Brexit not 'everything'. No different to 'some' of the English blaming everything they perceive wrong with the world at the EU's door. Some of us are sick of that too.
We Scots have no say in this Brexit really, always outvoted so there will be frustration from 'some' in that. You should be happy that having a moan is *all* we Scots can do wrt Brexit, England has the power in this. 

Click to expand...

Did you not take part in the referendum ?  Will stop there as Liverpoolphil beat me to it .


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## User62651 (Jan 31, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You have had the same say in this as we did - one vote ? we English havent had any extra say , no extra vote - the government who speak for all UK are the ones doing the deal

The vote was as a whole UK not single countries within the union
		
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No point retreading all this really. We are leaving and we have to accept that. Just responding to yet another anti Scottish post. That's why it was posted I'm sure, for a bite? People are allowed to disagree.

Dress it up all you like, every single voting area of our country within the UK voted remain, that is a unified position so surely you'd expect that to be respected, also we had one Tory MP at the time of the referendum, D Mundell so Tory views on Europe are not representative to us. I think it's not unreasonable to defend that view if we like. As I said earlier wont make a hoot of difference anyway.


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## oxymoron (Jan 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No point retreading all this really. We are leaving and we have to accept that. Just responding to yet another anti Scottish post. That's why it was posted I'm sure, for a bite? People are allowed to disagree.
		
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Don't mean it to be an anti Scottish post , and if you read it properly you would see that . I respect your opinion and was not looking to make people "bite" ,  just my opinion .
Then again looking at your post , is that anti English ? You trying to get a bite ?
Every area of Scotland voted to stay in the EU but the UK as a whole voted out , i understand your displeasure at not getting what you want as a group but that's the thing with voting , some will always be 
disappointed .


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2019)

Sweep said:





JamesR said:





Sweep said:





JamesR said:



			Like I said, show me where I said....
		
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Show me where I said you said ...
		
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No I didnâ€™t, you think I did, but youâ€™re wrong.
		
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You did. You say you didnâ€™t, but you did.ðŸ˜€
		
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How old are you guys?
This really is playground stuff


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## drdel (Jan 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Cracks appearing? The Polish president has met with Merkel and asked her to use her influence with the EU negotiators to bend a little. He wants a Deal, not a No Deal.

Dutch fruit and veg growers appeal to their govt to put pressure on Brussels. The Dutch export â‚¬1.2bn worth of fruit and veg to the UK. They are already contracted to deliver after Brexit and are concerned that they won't be able to do so.
		
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Reality has never been popular in the EU Commission. 

When Juncker, Tusk and Barnier stop grandstanding and look outside they might see that Singapore manages to operate very effficient crossing border controls. Not exactly the same but pretty close.


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2019)

Will the Miller case come back and bite her on the nose.

She got her meaningful vote, if the EU wont accept that Parliament have rejected the current deal then a no deal must be the most likely event.


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## User62651 (Jan 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Will the Miller case come back and bite her on the nose.

She got her meaningful vote, if the EU wont accept that Parliament have rejected the current deal then a no deal must be the most likely event.
		
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Does look that way but I think Miller was right to ask that parliament got involved, that's what they're there for. What did she have to lose anyway? We were leaving then and we're still leaving, just how?

Does May ignore the non-binding motion passed Tuesday that No Deal should not be allowed? I think she will ignore it. 

Unless the EU move position I think May has run out of options on anything but a No Deal.

Should I start stockpiling.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No point retreading all this really. We are leaving and we have to accept that. Just responding to yet another anti Scottish post. That's why it was posted I'm sure, for a bite? People are allowed to disagree.

Dress it up all you like, every single voting area of our country within the UK voted remain, that is a unified position so surely you'd expect that to be respected, also we had one Tory MP at the time of the referendum, D Mundell so Tory views on Europe are not representative to us. I think it's not unreasonable to defend that view if we like. As I said earlier wont make a hoot of difference anyway.
		
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When I voted I didnt consider I was voting for England, it was a UK vote where you and I are UK citizens and have one UK vote each. I find it sad that so many Scots keep suggesting their country voted to leave.


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## JamesR (Jan 31, 2019)

Foxholer said:




How old are you guys?
This really is playground stuff
		
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He started it ðŸ˜‰


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## JamesR (Jan 31, 2019)

Sweep said:



			You did. You say you didnâ€™t, but you did.ðŸ˜€
		
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ðŸ˜‰


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Does look that way but I think Miller was right to ask that parliament got involved, that's what they're there for. What did she have to lose anyway? We were leaving then and we're still leaving, just how?

Does May ignore the non-binding motion passed Tuesday that No Deal should not be allowed? I think she will ignore it.

Unless the EU move position I think May has run out of options on anything but a No Deal.

Should I start stockpiling.

Click to expand...

The motion passed on Tuesday has no legal standing where as there is legislation in place for us to leave in March.  The EU knew that the deal had to be ratified and they knew that the NI border issue was always going to be a major factor.

This really should have been resolved/understood right from the beginning. Continues to show the complete ineptitude of the UK negotiation team.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Does look that way but I think Miller was right to ask that parliament got involved, that's what they're there for. What did she have to lose anyway? We were leaving then and we're still leaving, just how?

Does May ignore the non-binding motion passed Tuesday that No Deal should not be allowed? I think she will ignore it.

Unless the EU move position I think May has run out of options on anything but a No Deal.

Should I start stockpiling.

Click to expand...

I suspect (most of) labour will fall behind her deal and it will get through with some minor amendments. The price will be upsetting the ERG group and may well lead to her being replaced as PM.  But I suspect she does not want under any circumstances her, or the Tory parties legacy, to be a no deal.  As you can spin it as much as you want as the fault of the EU, but the opposition will be able to use it for years as a stick to beat the Tories with.


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			He started it ðŸ˜‰
		
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## Hobbit (Jan 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			When I voted I didnt consider I was voting for England, it was a UK vote where you and I are UK citizens and have one UK vote each. I find it sad that so many Scots keep suggesting their country voted to leave.
		
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But their country didn't vote to Leave. 62% of Scots voted Remain, not 100% of Scots.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



*The motion passed on Tuesday has no legal standing* where as there is legislation in place for us to leave in March.  The EU knew that the deal had to be ratified and they knew that the NI border issue was always going to be a major factor.

This really should have been resolved/understood right from the beginning. Continues to show the complete ineptitude of the UK negotiation team.
		
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If we are going down that road then you could argue that the referendum was advisory. And to quote wikipedia about the referendum act  '_The act made no provision for the result to be legally binding on the government or on any future government_'.   But hey ho.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			If we are going down that road then you could argue that the referendum was advisory. And to quote wikipedia about the referendum act  '_The act made no provision for the result to be legally binding on the government or on any future government_'.   But hey ho. 

Click to expand...

Invoking article 50 was legaly binding.


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## IanM (Jan 31, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			If we are going down that road then you could argue that the referendum was advisory. A
		
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...and Cameron had his fingers crossed behind his back when he "promised to implement what you decide!"


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Will the Miller case come back and bite her on the nose.

She got her meaningful vote, if the EU wont accept that Parliament have rejected the current deal then a no deal must be the most likely event.
		
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Miller's specific 'influence' ended when Parliament voted to trigger Article 50. Though the ruling also covers any other Law that Parliament has instigated - so Cabinet/the PM cannot simply overrule it (Parliament) using 'Royal Prerogative'!

Miller's case had/has nothing to do with whatever deal might (not) be negotiated, simply how a deal can be accepted! I'm certain that by triggering A50, Parliament has implicitly accepted the terms of Article 50 relating to what happens in the case of no deal being agreed.

Time you 'lost your grudge' against her and what she did. She's actually, imo, brought clarity to the limits of what a PM can do. Imagine if May was able to simply sign UK up to her (actually the EU's!) 'deal'!


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Invoking article 50 was legaly binding.
		
Click to expand...

Only because of this...European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 

The actual removal of any EU 'power' over UK is covered by this ...European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2019)

IanM said:



			...and Cameron had his fingers crossed behind his back when he "promised to implement what you decide!" 

Click to expand...

Just pointing out the, at times, use by both sides of semantics to make a point around what has or has not been promised and what is or is not legally binding or what can or can not be dismissed or indeed what is or is not democracy. When in reality a lot of it is on the eye of the beholder, depending on what viewpoint they have.


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The motion passed on Tuesday has no legal standing where as there is legislation in place for us to leave in March.  The EU knew that the deal had to be ratified and they knew that the NI border issue was always going to be a major factor.

This really should have been resolved/understood right from the beginning. Continues to show the complete ineptitude of the UK negotiation team.
		
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I'm certain that the EU team recognised the importance of the NI border - both to them and to UK. The almost certainly used that as a 'negotiation strategy'. They have, however, made a proposal about how to handle the issue. 

I'm not altogether certain that 'ineptitude' is really the correct term. They simply had little real ammunition - the (mutual) Trade issue had already been removed. I'm pretty certain the EU figured that economic 'damage' would be primarily to UK and would actually 'benefit' EU members - at least in the short term! German car manufacturers might disagree though!


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just pointing out the, at times, use by both sides of semantics to make a point around .... *what is or is not democracy*....
		
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As previously posted -* it's all 'democracy'*! Which, I believe, is what your subsequent sentence (not quoted, to emphasise MY point) means.


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## User62651 (Jan 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			When I voted I didnt consider I was voting for England, it was a UK vote where you and I are UK citizens and have one UK vote each. I find it sad that so many Scots keep suggesting their country voted to *leave*.
		
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Hobbit said:



			But their country didn't vote to Leave. 62% of Scots voted *Leave*, not 100% of Scots.
		
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Remain?


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Will the Miller case come back and bite her on the nose.

She got her meaningful vote, if the EU wont accept that Parliament have rejected the current deal then a no deal must be the most likely event.
		
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I think she's been playing for it. How can she appear to be so calm at the despatch box? It's all in the plan (I think)


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## Colonel Bogey (Jan 31, 2019)

Becauuuuuuuuuse. It's either she thinks all will be ok and we will come out of this amazingly well OR she's hoping it will all go to hell in a handcart with in a month and we'll have to rejoin, which is what she has wanted all along.


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Time you 'lost your grudge' against her and what she did. She's actually, imo, brought clarity to the limits of what a PM can do.'!
		
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Grow up, your continually telling others to, what grudge, I like you just have opinions although you try to make it that only your opinions are worth anything.


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## Hobbit (Jan 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Remain?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, Remain! Slip of the pencil.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			I think she's been playing for it. How can she appear to be so calm at the despatch box? *It's all in the plan* (I think)
		
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I think you are slightly overestimating the ability of politicians to think they are in control of this whole process.  I'd be more open to the idea that they are mostly making it up as they go along based on ongoing events.


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## drdel (Jan 31, 2019)

Interesting that Article 50 (2) contains the phrase "... the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union."

so they are required to " conclude" a deal but the final 'deal' concluded must take account of the "future relationship". I'd interpret that to suggest Barnier may have wrongly chosen to _*delay*_ the 'future' relationship which, I'd say, means the WA is only a part of the agreement the EU needs to _*include *_a future plan for it to be a complete deal. It must therefore be possible to keep negotiating until the future bit is also tied down !!!


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Grow up, your continually telling others to, what grudge, *I like you just have opinions *_although you try to make it that only your opinions are worth anything._

Click to expand...

So much wrong with the above, but not worth the, inevitable, hassle! 

I agree with the bold bit. The italicised bit can just as easily apply to you - or many/any others. But ALL are really simply *opinions* so 'biased' from our own experience/understanding/circumstances! None are really actually worth anything (more or less than anyone else's) except to ourselves!


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2019)

drdel said:



			Interesting that Article 50 (2) contains the phrase "... the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union."

so they are required to " conclude" a deal but the final 'deal' concluded must take account of the "future relationship". I'd interpret that to suggest Barnier may have wrongly chosen to _*delay*_ the 'future' relationship which, I'd say, means the WA is only a part of the agreement the EU needs to _*include *_a future plan for it to be a complete deal. It must therefore be possible to keep negotiating until the future bit is also tied down !!!
		
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Clutching at straws? Certainly arguable, but I don't believe very convincingly!

Article 50(3) covers failure to *do* a deal.

'The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.'

And the presence of that clause indicates that 'conclude' doesn't mean a WA has to be agreed!

And you missed the, important, word 'framework'! That framework could simply be 'subject to future negotiation'! I'm pretty sure that (or equivalent) will be in the proposed agreement somewhere.


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## drdel (Jan 31, 2019)

Foxholer said:



*Clutching at straws? *Certainly arguable, but I don't believe very convincingly!

Article 50(3) covers failure to *do* a deal.

'The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.'

And the presence of that clause indicates that 'conclude' doesn't mean a WA has to be agreed!

And you missed the, important, word 'framework'! That framework could simply be 'subject to future negotiation'! I'm pretty sure that (or equivalent) will be in the proposed agreement somewhere.
		
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Its a very cold day and I've not yet go out on the course so I'm on here wasting a bit of time for amusement. Certainly not clutching at any straws - t'was only a somewhat idle thought as befits an online Forum. 

You do seem to like to have dig and start a lot of your posts with a put-down of members' opinions before then making your pronouncement from a position (IYO) of superior intellect !!!


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2019)

drdel said:



			You do seem to like to have dig and start a lot of your posts with a put-down of members' opinions before then making your pronouncement from a position of *Assumed *superior intellect !!!
		
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Sorted


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## drdel (Jan 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Sorted
		
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 I knew I could rely on a fellow Devonian


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its a very cold day and I've not yet go out on the course so I'm on here wasting a bit of time for amusement. Certainly not clutching at any straws - t'was only a somewhat idle thought as befits an online Forum.

You do seem to like to have dig and start a lot of your posts with a put-down of members' opinions before then making your pronouncement from a position (IYO) of superior intellect !!!
		
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Where was the 'dig'? Likewise, where was the put-down -  as opposed to correction/contrary opinion? And surely, if I disagree (which, as far as I know is actually allowed - in spite of the *impression* Old Skier gives!) then I'm duty bound to back it up with reasons/reasoning! No 'superior intellect' involved, though perhaps 'more complete analysis'. I believe I'm actually prepared to be corrected or convinced of a view contrary to my 'existing' one rather more than most - certainly more-so than many of the hard-core 'contributors' in this thread!

Btw. IMO, I'd certainly 'question your intellect' about getting out on the course today - *I think you'd be mad* to do so, at least if the conditions are anything like they are in Surrey!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Remain?
		
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Yes, sorry for the typo but the rest of the comment remains.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2019)

drdel said:



 I knew I could rely on a fellow Devonian 

Click to expand...

Oh Ah! Me Old Hansom


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## Mudball (Jan 31, 2019)

If you are a Brexiteer or BeLeaver and a Liverpool fan you may want to look away.. 

Jurgen Klopp speaking out on Brexit: essentially denouncing Leave campaign lies & misinformation, and arguing the Remain campaign was limp, so it was not a proper democratic process because people did not have full, genuine information.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090604184204963841


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## harpo_72 (Jan 31, 2019)

So why has TMâ€™s deal become acceptable bar the back stop ?


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## PieMan (Jan 31, 2019)

Mudball said:



			If you are a Brexiteer or BeLeaver and a Liverpool fan you may want to look away..

Jurgen Klopp speaking out on Brexit: essentially denouncing Leave campaign lies & misinformation, and arguing the Remain campaign was limp, so it was not a proper democratic process because people did not have full, genuine information.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090604184204963841

Click to expand...

That's ok with the new immigration laws coming in I'll have a word with my colleagues in the Home Office and get the git sent back to Germany!!!! ðŸ˜‰

Hopefully that'll be the end of Liverpool as a force for a bit and it'll put an end to all the smugness from Liverpoolphil, Liverbirdie and Stu!!! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## IanM (Jan 31, 2019)

Good old Kloppy! ........   assume he is "yet another" German not wanting to be left holding the baby as the EU's insolvency bites.... or maybe he has shares in BMW who are about to lose signifcant revenue, unless stuff changes...


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## chrisd (Jan 31, 2019)

I'm as much interested in Klopps opinions as I am SILH's. I'll not bother to watch


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## Dando (Jan 31, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm as much interested in Klopps opinions as I am SILH's. I'll not bother to watch
		
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No doubt youâ€™ve got another set of clubs to choose instead!


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## drdel (Jan 31, 2019)

When Raab was involved the Â£39bn (or whatever the number is today) was _*part *_of the WA settlement and necessary step towards paving the way for the future.

Noises coming from Brussels now suggests that if there is not an agreement by end of March and the fee is not paid by mid-April they'll sue us. So while 'future planning then stops (in theory) with the EU says 'no' renegotiating and so we leave without a deal i.e. no WA yet they propose relying on part of it.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 31, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect (most of) labour will fall behind her deal and it will get through with some minor amendments. The price will be upsetting the ERG group and may well lead to her being replaced as PM.  But I suspect she does not want under any circumstances her, or the Tory parties legacy, to be a no deal.  As you can spin it as much as you want as the fault of the EU, but the opposition will be able to use it for years as a stick to beat the Tories with.
		
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You think that she really wants to be responsible for a deal that has been said to be worse than No Deal?  I'd actually take Remain over what I understand her pig's ear offers us.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ngle-market-customs-union-government-brussels

https://www.forbes.com/sites/france...it-deal-is-terrible-for-the-u-k/#56de06b27bd7


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			You think that she really wants to be responsible for a deal that has been said to be worse than No Deal?  I'd actually take Remain over what I understand her pig's ear offers us.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ngle-market-customs-union-government-brussels

https://www.forbes.com/sites/france...it-deal-is-terrible-for-the-u-k/#56de06b27bd7

Click to expand...

That's the dilemma, you are choosing to either cut off your arm or cut off your leg, one may be slightly less worse than the other but neither are very palatable.

I suspect more of the public will hold a no deal against her then they would hold some kind of deal against her.  Politicians and commentators get all worked up about the implications of a backstop but I would think that a majority of the public just will say get a divorce deal done and then agree a trade deal in the next 2 years so you don't have to ever use the backstop.  The tories then have another 2 years to work things out and spin away as needed, where as a no deal is pretty immediate and is much less 'spinable'


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 31, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			That's the dilemma, you are choosing to either cut off your arm or cut off your leg, one may be slightly less worse than the other but neither are very palatable.

I suspect more of the public will hold a no deal against her then they would hold some kind of deal against her.  Politicians and commentators get all worked up about the implications of a backstop but I would think that a majority of the public just will say get a divorce deal done and then agree a trade deal in the next 2 years so you don't have to ever use the backstop.  The tories then have another 2 years to work things out and spin away as needed, where as a no deal is pretty immediate and is much less 'spinable'
		
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Or you could view it as cutting out a tumour; messy and takes some sorting out but preferable to the long term prognosis and offers the prospect of a full recovery and a brighter future. 

I think the problem is that some kind of deal, the dog's dinner, lets her off the hook immediately but will taint her legacy, if that is possible, in years to come, as people realise what she's actually done.  No deal will probably create more friction immediately, especially amongst the opposing factions of the great unwashed, but potentially will be looked upon fondly if we succeed in negotiating the better deals that could be possible.  

Not sure a majority of the public will go for the deal over the no deal as the majority went for leave, but I'm sure the politicians will if they can't manage to wangle a way to Remain.


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Or you could view it as cutting out a tumour; messy and takes some sorting out but preferable to the long term prognosis and offers the prospect of a full recovery and a brighter future.

I think the problem is that some kind of deal, the dog's dinner, lets her off the hook immediately *but will taint her legacy, if that is possible, in years to come, as people realise what she's actually done*.  No deal will probably create more friction immediately, especially amongst the opposing factions of the great unwashed, but potentially will be looked upon fondly if we succeed in negotiating the better deals that could be possible. 

Not sure a majority of the public will go for the deal over the no deal as the majority went for leave, but I'm sure the politicians will if they can't manage to wangle a way to Remain.
		
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I don't think politicians give a rats ass what their legacy may turn out to be in 5,10 years time and are much more concerned about how things play in the here and now and how their party can gain or stay in power.  Also the vast majority of business groups and many businesses who also have shareholders to answer to have spoken up against a no deal and I'm not sure they are classed as the great unwashed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2019)

Off to NZ, Oz and SE Asia tomorrow for four and a bit months with Mrs SILH (yes - I know - poor girl!!) and oh how I will miss the daily banter, badinage and gay repartee of this place - and oh how I'll miss the joys of UK on the 29th March, not - oh joys unbounded.  

But wait.  They have the internet down there - ah but I shall desist methinks from visiting here - maybe pop in around 29th March - or whenever - just to see how things are doing - if we have gone or if we are still going - or not as the case might be.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2019)

Im getting concerned about this lettuce situation and I dont really like lettuce much. Not sure where most of these lettuces come from but just imagine the farmer with millions of lettuces in his field and nowhere to send them. He would probably like to send them to the UK but it seems like we have a problem clearing lettuces through customs due to some lettuce tarrif we decided to apply. 

Although,  getting things into perspective. My Grandad and Grandma were bombed out of their house in Plymouth during the war but  managed to get on with their lives without making a fuss. Maybe they were OK for lettuces though.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Off to NZ, Oz and SE Asia tomorrow for four and a bit months with Mrs SILH (yes - I know - poor girl!!) and oh how I will miss the daily banter, badinage and gay repartee of this place - and oh how I'll miss the joys of UK on the 29th March, not - oh joys unbounded. 

But wait.  They have the internet down there - *ah but I shall desist methinks from visiting here* - maybe pop in around 29th March - or whenever - just to see holw things are doing - if we have gone or if we are still going - or not as the case might be.
		
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Bet you dont ðŸ˜‰


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm as much interested in Klopps opinions as I am SILH's. I'll not bother to watch
		
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Just as well I haven't bothered posting on this topic as I can't be a*sed with the dismissive and contemptuously arrogant attitude taken by some towards those who simply ask the question 'why the hell are we doing this to ourselves; how is the man or woman in the street going to benefit overall from leaving, especially from crashing out with No Deal - ah yes - sovereignty, taking back control?'  What were the Vote Leave Headline Promises?

1) Â£350m a week we give to the EU to spend on whatever we want - why not spend it all on the NHS...
2) Reduced Immigration to levels in the 10s of thousands...
3) No more the 5million new immigrants by 2030 from Turkey and four other aspiring EU members

Well that's all going well.  Ah - we haven't left yet...and mustn't forget that some prices in the shops might come down if we cut import tariffs...

Even when I don't post I get slagged off.  And because I haven't posted chrisd's dig can only be personal - and I thought that was being stopped by the mods.  I suppose it's OK to have a go at SILH.

Well it sucks.


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## Hobbit (Jan 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Im getting concerned about this lettuce situation and I dont really like lettuce much. Not sure where most of these lettuces come from but just imagine the farmer with millions of lettuces in his field and nowhere to send them. He would probably like to send them to the UK but it seems like we have a problem clearing lettuces through customs due to some lettuce tarrif we decided to apply.

Although,  getting things into perspective. My Grandad and Grandma were bombed out of their house in Plymouth during the war but  managed to get on with their lives without making a fuss. Maybe they were OK for lettuces though.
		
Click to expand...

Mmm, but just imagine all those EU exporters that have a contract to deliver on 'x' date with 'y' perishable goods. Did I hear a faint whiff of breach of contract? No, of course not. The UK government knows full well that putting food on the shelves is essential...

Earlier today, while watching a pair of Andalucian vultures doing their lets have some fun dance I Googled Estonia's border controls. Guess what? The EU has a fast track system of goods coming out of Russia into the EU. It even mentions time sensitive goods. An MRN document, the electronic thing that everyone says doesn't exist, and a fast lane across the border. OOOHHHH, lets all shout backstop and the dangers to peace!!! Maybe we should all be shouting at Tusk and Juncker and saying stop being ar5es about not implementing a solution that is already in place. C'mon, lets be honest here, the EU is being totally ar5sey to stop the UK getting a fair deal. And if some people can't be honest about it... best not say eh.


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## chrisd (Jan 31, 2019)

Maybe worth a look?


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## Hobbit (Jan 31, 2019)

chrisd said:








Maybe worth a look?
		
Click to expand...

Have you seen the one from just before this one. Guy Verhofstadt, or whatever his name is. Arrogant doesn't even come close. And he's the parliament's spokesperson on Brexit... Now he's someone I wouldn't mind kicking in the nuts.


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## Hobbit (Jan 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, but just imagine all those EU exporters that have a contract to deliver on 'x' date with 'y' perishable goods. Did I hear a faint whiff of breach of contract? No, of course not. The UK government knows full well that putting food on the shelves is essential...

Earlier today, while watching a pair of Andalucian vultures doing their lets have some fun dance I Googled Estonia's border controls. Guess what? The EU has a fast track system of goods coming out of Russia into the EU. It even mentions time sensitive goods. An MRN document, the electronic thing that everyone says doesn't exist, and a fast lane across the border. OOOHHHH, lets all shout backstop and the dangers to peace!!! Maybe we should all be shouting at Tusk and Juncker and saying stop being ar5es about not implementing a solution that is already in place. C'mon, lets be honest here, the EU is being totally ar5sey to stop the UK getting a fair deal. And if some people can't be honest about it... best not say eh.
		
Click to expand...

As a thought, don't you think the UK govt already knows about this solution? After all, there was a piece on the Beeb news about the rail version of this into the EU from Russia. Why aren't the UK govt shouting this from the roof tops? Why aren't they pointing very long fingers at the EU over this? Are they that thick?

Maybe its a Remainer PM not wanting the electorate to get their way...?


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## spongebob59 (Jan 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Have you seen the one from just before this one. Guy Verhofstadt, or whatever his name is. Arrogant doesn't even come close. And he's the parliament's spokesperson on Brexit... Now he's someone I wouldn't mind kicking in the nuts.
		
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Can we form an orderly q.


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## bladeplayer (Jan 31, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Off to NZ, Oz and SE Asia tomorrow for four and a bit months with Mrs SILH (yes - I know - poor girl!!) and oh how I will miss the daily banter, badinage and gay repartee of this place - and oh how I'll miss the joys of UK on the 29th March, not - oh joys unbounded.  

But wait.  They have the internet down there - ah but I shall desist methinks from visiting here - maybe pop in around 29th March - or whenever - just to see how things are doing - if we have gone or if we are still going - or not as the case might be.
		
Click to expand...

In case i dont get international visa to come on after the 29th have a great break ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just as well I haven't bothered posting on this topic as I can't be a*sed with the dismissive and contemptuously arrogant attitude taken by some towards those who simply ask the question 'why the hell are we doing this to ourselves; how is the man or woman in the street going to benefit overall from leaving, especially from crashing out with No Deal - ah yes - sovereignty, taking back control?'  What were the Vote Leave Headline Promises?

1) Â£350m a week we give to the EU to spend on whatever we want - why not spend it all on the NHS...
2) Reduced Immigration to levels in the 10s of thousands...
3) No more the 5million new immigrants by 2030 from Turkey and four other aspiring EU members

Well that's all going well.  Ah - we haven't left yet...and mustn't forget that some prices in the shops might come down if we cut import tariffs...

Even when I don't post I get slagged off.  And because I haven't posted chrisd's dig can only be personal - and I thought that was being stopped by the mods.  I suppose it's OK to have a go at SILH.

Well it sucks.
		
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We were not promised to reduce immigration to the 10s of thousands in the referendum, that was a previous target set by Cameron and he was a remainer, I think you know that.

Can you show me some link where the campaigns to leave actually stated 5 million immigrants from Turkey and four other aspiring nations by 2030.


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## chrisd (Jan 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Have you seen the one from just before this one. Guy Verhofstadt, or whatever his name is. Arrogant doesn't even come close. And he's the parliament's spokesperson on Brexit... Now he's someone I wouldn't mind kicking in the nuts.
		
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I did indeed see it and entirely agree with you


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2019)

Thinking on. Maybe a shortage of lettuces would just be the tip of an iceberg.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thinking on. Maybe a shortage of lettuces would just be the tip of an iceberg.
		
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Hmmm....., I blame the Romaine lot.


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## Sweep (Feb 1, 2019)

Foxholer said:




How old are you guys?
This really is playground stuff
		
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Congratulations! You have just won the â€œthatâ€™s a bit richâ€ post of the year! And itâ€™s still January.
At least I was laughing about the posts. Hence the smileyâ€™s. I donâ€™t think anyone was taking them too seriously.., except you possibly.


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## Sweep (Feb 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm as much interested in Klopps opinions as I am SILH's. I'll not bother to watch
		
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I didnâ€™t watch it. He told us to look away, so I did.ðŸ˜€
I just thought it was someone else from an EU nation telling us what to do. Nothing new there.


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## Sweep (Feb 1, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Can we form an orderly q.
		
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Sorry, the UK has got to go to the back of the queue. You remember.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We were not promised to reduce immigration to the 10s of thousands in the referendum, that was a previous target set by Cameron and he was a remainer, I think you know that.

Can you show me some link where the campaigns to leave actually stated no more 5 million immigrants from Turkey and four other aspiring nations by 2030.
		
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From the Vote Leave website - link to a Gove speech expanding on the immigration theme

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-immigrant-influx-michael-gove-nhs-unsustainable

and also from that website - the Â£350m a week lie/deceit (it wasn't just on the side of a bus)

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_cost.html

All the scare stuff and deceits are on the front page though

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

I particularly like the headline lie (as we all know that we could have controlled immigration much better if we had bothered or wanted to) 

_'Immigration will continue to be out of control'_

...and the follow up clincher

_'Imagine what it will be like in future decades when new, poorer counties join'_

Imagine indeed - 76million from Turkey....

All the lies, deceits and dog whistling scares are there in plain sight on the Vote Leave website.

Such a pity.


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## Sweep (Feb 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Off to NZ, Oz and SE Asia tomorrow for four and a bit months with Mrs SILH (yes - I know - poor girl!!) and oh how I will miss the daily banter, badinage and gay repartee of this place - and oh how I'll miss the joys of UK on the 29th March, not - oh joys unbounded. 

But wait.  They have the internet down there - ah but I shall desist methinks from visiting here - maybe pop in around 29th March - or whenever - just to see how things are doing - if we have gone or if we are still going - or not as the case might be.
		
Click to expand...

What? A world exists outside Europe?!!! And they have internet?!!!
How are you going to get home after March 29? I thought all flights were going to be suspended? Have you got your blue passport?
Err Hogie, I know we have disagreed on this thread but we both always knew we are good mates really. Please donâ€™t turn your back on us. Please send us water, chocolate so we can enjoy Easter, flowers for our mums on Motherâ€™s Day. Medicine. And lettuce. Please send lettuce. And donâ€™t take any notice of how great life is in Oz. After 2.5 years, we donâ€™t want you coming back converted after seeing how well an independent country can do in the world.
Joking aside, have a great trip. It sounds amazing. ðŸ˜€


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From the Vote Leave website - link to a Gove speech expanding on the immigration theme

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-immigrant-influx-michael-gove-nhs-unsustainable

and also from that website - the Â£350m a week lie/deceit (it wasn't just on the side of a bus)

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_cost.html

All the scare stuff and deceits are on the front page though

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

I particularly like the headline lie (as we all know that we could have controlled immigration much better if we had bothered or wanted to)

_'Immigration will continue to be out of control'_

...and the follow up clincher

_'Imagine what it will be like in future decades when new, poorer counties join'_

Imagine indeed - 76million from Turkey....

All the lies, deceits and dog whistling scares are there in plain sight on the Vote Leave website.

Such a pity.
		
Click to expand...

And then you go and spoil it all by mentioning Turkey. I don't doubt some of your conclusions but how can you be taken seriously when you throw something in with a little spin. Turkey. Turkey had an application in to join the EU. The EU were making approving noises, especially as they wanted/want Turkey onside over immigration. And then there was the attempted coup, which was brutally put down by Erdogan. Macron says non, and Merkel says nien. 

Turkey wasn't lies, but if it helps your argument


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## IanM (Feb 1, 2019)

I had a thought this morning...I'd vote to stay in a Common Market, but never the EU. 

The former is abut trade and cooperation.... all the "ideals" the Remain Campaign talk about.  Maybe that that is long gone, if it wasnt, there would be no EU Parliament, Judiciary, Central Bank etc....and we were never allowed to vote on the transition.  Countires that did, had "no" votes" ignored. 

Maybe that is why there is no consensus.  Remainers are subconsiously (or otherwise) campaigning to stay in The Common Market.  Leavers are campaigining against Federalism.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And then you go and spoil it all by mentioning Turkey. I don't doubt some of your conclusions but how can you be taken seriously when you throw something in with a little spin. Turkey. Turkey had an application in to join the EU. The EU were making approving noises, especially as they wanted/want Turkey onside over immigration. And then there was the attempted coup, which was brutally put down by Erdogan. Macron says non, and Merkel says nien.

Turkey wasn't lies, but if it helps your argument

Click to expand...

Cameron said he would be their ambassador for membership.


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 1, 2019)

I'd go for that as well.   I have no time for corrupt organisations run by dictators.    Well except for this forum  ;-)


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2019)

https://www.freshfruitportal.com/ne...ions-to-fast-track-perishable-exports-to-u-k/

Why cant this be the solution for all EU imports/exports of all goods, it would also solve the Irish question


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2019)

IanM said:



			I had a thought this morning...I'd vote to stay in a Common Market, but never the EU.

The former is abut trade and cooperation.... all the "ideals" the Remain Campaign talk about.  Maybe that that is long gone, if it wasnt, there would be no EU Parliament, Judiciary, Central Bank etc....and we were never allowed to vote on the transition.  Countires that did, had "no" votes" ignored.

Maybe that is why there is no consensus.  Remainers are subconsiously (or otherwise) campaigning to stay in The Common Market.  Leavers are campaigining against Federalism.
		
Click to expand...

I think, maybe, even that's too simplistic. The are some Remainers on here that prefer the EU creating laws on the environment and worker's rights as they don't trust our own governments. In effect, they are saying "I don't care that you voted for the Tories/Labour. We want the EU to govern us." Others want to Remain for ease of trade. And some Leavers don't want federalism but others want to restrict/stop immigration.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 1, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I'd go for that as well.   I have no time for corrupt organisations run by dictators.    Well except for this forum  ;-)
		
Click to expand...


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## chrisd (Feb 1, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I'd go for that as well.   I have no time for corrupt organisations run by dictators.    Well except for this forum  ;-)
		
Click to expand...

MMMMM it was nice while you were around, I just wonder how long your ban will be and what new name you'll come back as!


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## chrisd (Feb 1, 2019)

IanM said:



			I had a thought this morning...I'd vote to stay in a Common Market, but never the EU.

The former is abut trade and cooperation.... all the "ideals" the Remain Campaign talk about.  Maybe that that is long gone, if it wasnt, there would be no EU Parliament, Judiciary, Central Bank etc....and we were never allowed to vote on the transition.  Countires that did, had "no" votes" ignored.

Maybe that is why there is no consensus.  Remainers are subconsiously (or otherwise) campaigning to stay in The Common Market.  Leavers are campaigining against Federalism.
		
Click to expand...


Funny that, I voted to join the Common Market but NOT the EU - but look what I ended up with!


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## Sweep (Feb 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



https://www.freshfruitportal.com/ne...ions-to-fast-track-perishable-exports-to-u-k/

Why cant this be the solution for all EU imports/exports of all goods, it would also solve the Irish question
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s clear that there are processes that could be put in place very quickly that would resolve this issue.
What I find interesting is that countries (in this case the Netherlands) can seem to find solutions for their own issues and loss of trade caused by Brexit (presumably because they realise the vast amount of business that is in clear danger of being lost) but will still vote with Barnier et al when they say the EU wonâ€™t renegotiate. It smacks of the self preservation of individual nations that represents everything the EU is against.

As an aside, this article states that the Netherlands is selling USD $1.4 billion worth of fresh fruit and vegetables to the UK every year. Equivalent to 50,000 trucks. Thatâ€™s is a staggering amount. It makes me wonder why? Is the climate so much better in Holland? Could we not grow all this produce ourselves?


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



*Itâ€™s clear that there are processes that could be put in place very quickly that would resolve this issue.*
What I find interesting is that countries (in this case the Netherlands) can seem to find solutions for their own issues and loss of trade caused by Brexit (presumably because they realise the vast amount of business that is in clear danger of being lost) but will still vote with Barnier et al when they say the EU wonâ€™t renegotiate. It smacks of the self preservation of individual nations that represents everything the EU is against.

As an aside, this article states that the Netherlands is selling USD $1.4 billion worth of fresh fruit and vegetables to the UK every year. Equivalent to 50,000 trucks. Thatâ€™s is a staggering amount. It makes me wonder why? Is the climate so much better in Holland? Could we not grow all this produce ourselves?
		
Click to expand...

No it is not.  There are at best suggestions that could work if they were properly evaluated and then executed. Some of which seem to involve vast IT infrastructure projects that will need to work with a massive range of products.  Just because some Dutch fruit growers have come up with a suggestion using digital pre-clearance then the whole border thing in Ireland is easily resolvable is just poppycock. There have been many suggestions, but none have been proven to be a practical workable solution that can be implemented in the next 2 years.  Hence the seeming need for a backstop. 

And I am sure we could potentially grow that much ourselves if we wanted to make a fundamental change to our agricultural practices.  Assuming we had people who were wiling to work on the farms, but remind me where we generally source that labour from at the moment....  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...migrant-workers-labour-shortage-a8469806.html


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			No it is not.  There are at best suggestions that could work if they were properly evaluated and then executed. Some of which seem to involve vast IT infrastructure projects that will need to work with a massive range of products.  Just because some Dutch fruit growers have come up with a suggestion using digital pre-clearance then the whole border thing in Ireland is easily resolvable is just poppycock. There have been many suggestions, but none have been proven to be a practical workable solution that can be implemented in the next 2 years.  Hence the seeming need for a backstop.

And I am sure we could potentially grow that much ourselves if we wanted to make a fundamental change to our agricultural practices.  Assuming we had people who were wiling to work on the farms, but remind me where we generally source that labour from at the moment....  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...migrant-workers-labour-shortage-a8469806.html

Click to expand...

You sound as if you don't want it to work.  Why so negative about the UK?

Is there not already vast IT systems that are pre-checking these massive range of products arriving and leaving the UK, I'm pretty sure its not all done on trust.   You also say to use such a system in Ireland is 'Poppycock', maybe you can quantify this Poppycock.   I think the reason these ideas have been kicked down the road are more to do with negotiating strategy than the difficulty with application.


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## JamesR (Feb 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



			As an aside, this article states that the Netherlands is selling USD $1.4 billion worth of fresh fruit and vegetables to the UK every year. Equivalent to 50,000 trucks. Thatâ€™s is a staggering amount. It makes me wonder why?* Is the climate so much better in Holland? Could we not grow all this produce ourselves?*

Click to expand...

I assume it's all grown in the massive greenhouses


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



			As an aside, this article states that the Netherlands is selling USD $1.4 billion worth of fresh fruit and vegetables to the UK every year. Equivalent to 50,000 trucks. Thatâ€™s is a staggering amount. It makes me wonder why? Is the climate so much better in Holland? Could we not grow all this produce ourselves?
		
Click to expand...

They grow stuff the UK can't. It might be climate, it might be whatever. But the UK also exports over Â£20bn worth of food to the EU. The majority of the UK's food exports to the EU goes to Ireland.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2019)

Looks like its possible to grow lettuce anywhere.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Itâ€™s clear that there are processes that could be put in place very quickly that would resolve this issue.
		
Click to expand...

Yes there are, and they are already in use in the UK and the EU. I've used them both for imports and exports within the EU, to countries where there are agreements, e.g. Norway, and to countries in South and North America, Africa, the Middle East, the Far East and to Russia.

And as a manufacturer, that also means importing components and then getting CE approval or FDA approval or whatever the local approval is for the country you're exporting the finished product to. This isn't difficult!!!!!!! The UK has been doing it for donkey's years. When a new customer, in a new country to us, placed an order it took a couple of hours to process the order. When they placed their second order it took minutes.

What will change post-Brexit? In the drop down menu for the 3rd country you're importing from or exporting to you will add in all the EU 27. Where an agreement is in place, country 'x' may have a different tariff rate, there'll be a box to enter in the tariff rates. This isn't difficult!!!!! The UK has been doing it for donkey's years.

The accounting part of our IT system was blocked Dec 30th globally whilst all the new prices etc were done. It was unblocked on the 3-4th Jan, and surprise surprise, all the new data was accessible and up and running. Within that package were tariff rates and customers/countries. This isn't difficult!!!!



Hacker Khan said:



			No it is not.  There are at best suggestions that could work if they were properly evaluated and then executed. Some of which seem to involve vast IT infrastructure projects that will need to work with a massive range of products.  Just because some Dutch fruit growers have come up with a suggestion using digital pre-clearance then the whole border thing in Ireland is easily resolvable is just poppycock. There have been many suggestions, but none have been proven to be a practical workable solution that can be implemented in the next 2 years.  Hence the seeming need for a backstop.
		
Click to expand...

What is so different between importing/exporting from/to, say, Mexico? The systems are already available, tried and tested. Hell's teeth, most of the goods transiting through Rotterdam/London/Dublin/Hamburg etc are done with electronic documentation. Taxes and tariffs are collected electronically. No one stands at the dock gates with a money bag.

"Massive range of products..." Those products are already listed with their global classifications on company IT systems throughout the world. And they are listed on Customs systems throughout the world too.

What is missing is the size of infrastructure, that's all. And even then, its with HMRC and the various EU customs houses. A company shipping 100 boxes the day before Brexit could ship 100 boxes the day after Brexit. They change the end user (electronic) docs to reflect the 'new' country and tariff applicable, thats all. There's a massive change at HMRC level in the number of transactions that might need inspecting, and do they want extra Customs Officers, that's pretty much it. Lots of new data entry to set it up but a few months in and its all done.

I genuinely can't understand the problems. In fact, there aren't any. Change the country classification on the IT system, and collect the tariffs/taxes for HMRC. HMRC changes the country classification their end. Its about the scale of new transactions that fall under the potential need for inspections, that's all.

All this it can't be done is just complete rollox.


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## drdel (Feb 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Yes there are, and they are already in use in the UK and the EU. I've used them both for imports and exports within the EU, to countries where there are agreements, e.g. Norway, and to countries in South and North America, Africa, the Middle East, the Far East and to Russia.

And as a manufacturer, that also means importing components and then getting CE approval or FDA approval or whatever the local approval is for the country you're exporting the finished product to. This isn't difficult!!!!!!! The UK has been doing it for donkey's years. When a new customer, in a new country to us, placed an order it took a couple of hours to process the order. When they placed their second order it took minutes.

What will change post-Brexit? In the drop down menu for the 3rd country you're importing from or exporting to you will add in all the EU 27. Where an agreement is in place, country 'x' may have a different tariff rate, there'll be a box to enter in the tariff rates. This isn't difficult!!!!! The UK has been doing it for donkey's years.

The accounting part of our IT system was blocked Dec 30th globally whilst all the new prices etc were done. It was unblocked on the 3-4th Jan, and surprise surprise, all the new data was accessible and up and running. Within that package were tariff rates and customers/countries. This isn't difficult!!!!



What is so different between importing/exporting from/to, say, Mexico? The systems are already available, tried and tested. Hell's teeth, most of the goods transiting through Rotterdam/London/Dublin/Hamburg etc are done with electronic documentation. Taxes and tariffs are collected electronically. No one stands at the dock gates with a money bag.

"Massive range of products..." Those products are already listed with their global classifications on company IT systems throughout the world. And they are listed on Customs systems throughout the world too.

What is missing is the size of infrastructure, that's all. And even then, its with HMRC and the various EU customs houses. A company shipping 100 boxes the day before Brexit could ship 100 boxes the day after Brexit. They change the end user (electronic) docs to reflect the 'new' country and tariff applicable, thats all. There's a massive change at HMRC level in the number of transactions that might need inspecting, and do they want extra Customs Officers, that's pretty much it. Lots of new data entry to set it up but a few months in and its all done.

I genuinely can't understand the problems. In fact, there aren't any. Change the country classification on the IT system, and collect the tariffs/taxes for HMRC. HMRC changes the country classification their end. Its about the scale of new transactions that fall under the potential need for inspections, that's all.

All this it can't be done is just complete rollox.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Global supply chains work smoothly everyday. BMW/Mercedes/Ford and others manage to make cars outside of the EU and sell them inside the EU !!

IMO cheap transport means companies 'double handle' and move stuff around to so-called 'centres of excellence' through 'hub and spoke' logistics. This strategy used to be true but now automated/robotic manufacturing/agriculture has brought the fixed cost down. But I'm afraid a considerable number of companies do not know their fixed and variable cost drivers and thus a frightened by any change.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 1, 2019)

Well I'm impressed that a bunch of posters on a golf website know there are simple solutions out there that the BBCs reality check and it seems the EU and British government are unaware of  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47047993


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## MegaSteve (Feb 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I assume it's all grown in the massive greenhouses
		
Click to expand...

Thanet Earth (in Kent) supplies 10% ish of our tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers...

Instead of building lorry parks policy should be to erect greenhouses...


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## robinthehood (Feb 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well I'm impressed that a bunch of posters on a golf website know there are simple solutions out there that the BBCs reality check and it seems the EU and British government are unaware of  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47047993

Click to expand...

Everyone is an expert on here....


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## IanM (Feb 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well I'm impressed that a bunch of posters on a golf website know there are simple solutions out there that the BBCs reality check and it seems the EU and British government are unaware of  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47047993

Click to expand...

I guess we are not in reciept of "educational grants" from the EU!!     (Calling something "Reality Check" doesnt make it so!)


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## JamesR (Feb 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Everyone is an expert on here....
		
Click to expand...

Yes, but apparently weâ€™re all fed up of experts!
According to Mr Gove


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well I'm impressed that a bunch of posters on a golf website know there are simple solutions out there that the BBCs reality check and it seems the EU and British government are unaware of  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47047993

Click to expand...

Do yourself a favour and Google electronic customs documents. You will see that companies like FedEx and DHL come up in the results. Google Estonia border controls - fast track. Educate yourself.

Or alternatively you can be a d!ck and post up sarcastic comments.


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			MMMMM it was nice while you were around, I just wonder how long your ban will be and what new name you'll come back as!
		
Click to expand...

Sharkus Patheticus -  they'll never know it was me!       You'd think some people might have noticed the wink emoji!


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Do yourself a favour and Google electronic customs documents. You will see that companies like FedEx and DHL come up in the results. Google Estonia border controls - fast track. Educate yourself.

Or alternatively you can be a d!ck and post up sarcastic comments.
		
Click to expand...

We ship all over Europe. I was talking to one of our carriers yesterday about a regular shipment we do to Bulgaria. I asked where he expected it get stuck if things get messy, , if anywhere. He highlighted that the goods will be cleared by electronic documentation before it got close to Bulgaria. It's what happens now with shipments coming in by sea. 

The system will need more people thrown at it but it is already in place.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well I'm impressed that a bunch of posters on a golf website know there are simple solutions out there that the BBCs reality check and it seems the EU and British government are unaware of  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47047993

Click to expand...

If Tom Edgington says it's not possible then who are we to disagree.  

I ask you again why you appear to be so anti UK, it sounds like you want us to fail, I can understand someone questioning a proposition but you seem to be wishing Brexit failure.  Do you want it to fail?


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## bluewolf (Feb 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If Tom Eddington says it's not possible then who are we to disagree. 

I ask you again why you appear to be so anti UK, it sounds like you want us to fail, I can understand someone questioning a proposition but you seem to be wishing Brexit failure.  Do you want it to fail?
		
Click to expand...

Right then.. My very last word on the subject (I promise this time). I doubt very very much if anyone wants Brexit to fail.. No one can be that stupid. However, there are a sizable number of people who don't want it to happen. That's a very different thing entirely. Do you agree?

There are many reasons for not wanting it to happen. My own reasons are part economic, but mainly because I believe that we evolve quicker as a society when we come together and work as a coherent whole, rather than as a group of disparate individuals. I love being British, but my background also makes me proud to be of German and Irish heritage. I therefore consider myself as European, almost as much as British.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 1, 2019)

Looks like things are about to kick off in Gibraltar.
What else would you call it other than a British Colony.?


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 1, 2019)

Just calling it British is enough


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## Sweep (Feb 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			No it is not.  There are at best suggestions that could work if they were properly evaluated and then executed. Some of which seem to involve vast IT infrastructure projects that will need to work with a massive range of products.  Just because some Dutch fruit growers have come up with a suggestion using digital pre-clearance then the whole border thing in Ireland is easily resolvable is just poppycock. There have been many suggestions, but none have been proven to be a practical workable solution that can be implemented in the next 2 years.  Hence the seeming need for a backstop.

And I am sure we could potentially grow that much ourselves if we wanted to make a fundamental change to our agricultural practices.  Assuming we had people who were wiling to work on the farms, but remind me where we generally source that labour from at the moment....  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...migrant-workers-labour-shortage-a8469806.html

Click to expand...

It seems you are wrong. As an importer and exporter of goods to and from the EU and outside the EU I know Hobbitâ€™s points are correct. When importing the agent requests from me my suppliers invoice and the CN (or HS) code for the product and the duty is calculated. In 20 years I canâ€™t remember a shipment from outside the EU being stopped (though I am sure some may have been checked but not delayed by it, so I wouldnâ€™t have known). The difference is that with no borders there are no stops - usually. I was stopped once going into Holland in a van with an delivery so urgent I drove it there myself. So as we know, no borders doesnâ€™t actually mean no borders and you can still be stopped.
It does seem that you donâ€™t want a solution to be found though. I am sorry if it doesnâ€™t fit your narrative but I think we all know deep inside that if we leave with no deal a solution will be found.
I was asked by a very concerned Chinese supplier last week what was going to happen. I said that in the worse case scenario we would have to deal with Europe on the same terms I deal with him. He said that we dealt ok so what was the problem?
As for BBC Fact Checker. May I suggest using a more neutral source?
And I do understand the foreign agricultural worker point. I do think we will have to make some adjustment to our working patterns and maybe more British people may well have to do these jobs. Maybe they donâ€™t want to do the work because they have been priced out by foreign workers. It seems it has been easy to rely on â€œforeignâ€ suppliers but seemingly just as easy to change, grow our own, pay workers more but save on Dutch profit and transport costs. We all know agriculture prices are too cheap and itâ€™s a problem across the globe. I bet you are first in the queue for Fairtrade stuff for example.


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## Sweep (Feb 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Looks like things are about to kick off in Gibraltar.
What else would you call it other than a British Colony.?
		
Click to expand...

What else would you call Tenerife other than a Spanish colony?
What else would you call Scotland other than an English colony? ðŸ˜€


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## USER1999 (Feb 1, 2019)

I don't see Portugal in any sort of a rush to give Madeira to Morocco either.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Right then.. My very last word on the subject (I promise this time). I doubt very very much if anyone wants Brexit to fail.. No one can be that stupid. However, there are a sizable number of people who don't want it to happen. That's a very different thing entirely. Do you agree?

There are many reasons for not wanting it to happen. My own reasons are part economic, but mainly because I believe that we evolve quicker as a society when we come together and work as a coherent whole, rather than as a group of disparate individuals. I love being British, but my background also makes me proud to be of German and Irish heritage. I therefore consider myself as European, almost as much as British.
		
Click to expand...

I have absolutely no problem with you feeling European, I do myself, it's the European Union I want to leave not Europe. 

I also agree that there is some benefit in being part of a society or Union. The Union I am happy with is the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and it's single market + customs union. I don't have a need to be part of a wider political Union.

I also understand that people wish us to remain in the Eu and that they are fully entitled to that view,  I would fight with all I have to defend their right to hold that opinion.  It may surprise many here but I do not attack their right or name call them for that opinion, I do however defend myself and others from attacks by posters who wish us to leave. I hoped those with contrary views would accept that we disagree.

I dislike intently the way many look to wish Brexit a failure and take pleasure in trying to dig up anything to discredit it, even to a level of wishing our country a shambolic future.  You have responded to a question I asked someone else and although I have responded to your points my further comments are not directed to you.


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## ger147 (Feb 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Looks like things are about to kick off in Gibraltar.
What else would you call it other than a British Colony.?
		
Click to expand...

British Overseas Territory


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Looks like things are about to kick off in Gibraltar.
What else would you call it other than a British Colony.?
		
Click to expand...

Best to ask the Gibraltarians


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## Sweep (Feb 1, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			I don't see Portugal in any sort of a rush to give Madeira to Morocco either.
		
Click to expand...

To some on here, Spain will now be the good guys and as we know, the British are always bad.
Strange though that the same people usually in favour of independence bids were probably routing for Catalonia against Spain a few months ago.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



			It seems you are wrong. As an importer and exporter of goods to and from the EU and outside the EU I know Hobbitâ€™s points are correct. When importing the agent requests from me my suppliers invoice and the CN (or HS) code for the product and the duty is calculated. In 20 years I canâ€™t remember a shipment from outside the EU being stopped (though I am sure some may have been checked but not delayed by it, so I wouldnâ€™t have known). The difference is that with no borders there are no stops - usually. I was stopped once going into Holland in a van with an delivery so urgent I drove it there myself. So as we know, no borders doesnâ€™t actually mean no borders and you can still be stopped.
It does seem that you donâ€™t want a solution to be found though. I am sorry if it doesnâ€™t fit your narrative but I think we all know deep inside that if we leave with no deal a solution will be found.
I was asked by a very concerned Chinese supplier last week what was going to happen. I said that in the worse case scenario we would have to deal with Europe on the same terms I deal with him. He said that we dealt ok so what was the problem?
As for BBC Fact Checker. May I suggest using a more neutral source?
And I do understand the foreign agricultural worker point. I do think we will have to make some adjustment to our working patterns and maybe more British people may well have to do these jobs. Maybe they donâ€™t want to do the work because they have been priced out by foreign workers. It seems it has been easy to rely on â€œforeignâ€ suppliers but seemingly just as easy to change, grow our own, pay workers more but save on Dutch profit and transport costs. We all know agriculture prices are too cheap and itâ€™s a problem across the globe. I bet you are first in the queue for Fairtrade stuff for example.
		
Click to expand...

The BBC also did a piece 2 or 3 months back about freight trains crossing from Russia into Estonia. Each of the containers had some sort of sensor/RFID and as they crossed the border they went through what looked like a hoop. Elec declaration had already been done. The RFID was referenced to the declaration that showed what was in the container. Its that simple.

No doubt some supercilious, sarcastic sod will come on a poo poo the idea that something that is already being used very successfully is only "an idea that hasn't been evaluated yet."

Strange that when I was working out of the Stockholm office I had no problems getting engineers and parts backwards and forwards into Norway on an almost daily basis... but hey, some of us who've experienced it on a daily basis know nothing.


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## IanM (Feb 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Looks like things are about to kick off in Gibraltar.
What else would you call it other than a British Colony.?
		
Click to expand...

Not surprised...

I drive from Spain into Portugal, there isnâ€™t even a barrier.....
I drive from Spain into Gib.  Miles of queues and aggro...

...ah, the EU. Pay them billions and they do what they like.


----------



## harpo_72 (Feb 1, 2019)

chrisd said:








Maybe worth a look?
		
Click to expand...

That was just a request to stall on no deal ...


----------



## chrisd (Feb 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			That was just a request to stall on no deal ...
		
Click to expand...

It was a way out


----------



## harpo_72 (Feb 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			It was a way out
		
Click to expand...

Lost his commitment... back pedal billy


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 1, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			I don't see Portugal in any sort of a rush to give Madeira to Morocco either.
		
Click to expand...

Or to give Hawaii back its independence. ðŸ‘


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The BBC also did a piece 2 or 3 months back about freight trains crossing from Russia into Estonia. Each of the containers had some sort of sensor/RFID and as they crossed the border they went through what looked like a hoop. Elec declaration had already been done. The RFID was referenced to the declaration that showed what was in the container. Its that simple.

No doubt some supercilious, sarcastic sod will come on a poo poo the idea that something that is already being used very successfully is only "an idea that hasn't been evaluated yet."

Strange that when I was working out of the Stockholm office I had no problems getting engineers and parts backwards and forwards into Norway on an almost daily basis... but hey, some of us who've experienced it on a daily basis know nothing.
		
Click to expand...

Hobbit if we are not able to track shipment loads as some have suggested. Then why are we reading stories like this.ðŸ˜‰
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47046979


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## User62651 (Feb 1, 2019)

IanM said:



			Not surprised...

I drive from Spain into Portugal, there isnâ€™t even a barrier.....
*I drive from Spain into Gib.  Miles of queues and aggro..*.

...ah, the EU. Pay them billions and they do what they like.
		
Click to expand...

What strange logic.
The British are choosing to make the crossing difficult if you're having trouble going in surely, not the EU or Spain?
Also Gibraltarians voted 98% remain so EU deosn't appear to be the evil empire to them.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			What strange logic.
The British are choosing to make the crossing difficult if you're having trouble going in surely, not the EU or Spain?
Also Gibraltarians voted 98% remain so EU deosn't appear to be the evil empire to them.
		
Click to expand...

Do you honestly think its the British (And I assume that includes you) making the crossing into Gib difficult?

Also, how do you think a vote to leave the UK would result in Gibraltar ?


----------



## User62651 (Feb 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly think its the British (And I assume that includes you) making the crossing into Gib difficult?

Also, how do you think a vote to leave the UK would result in Gibraltar ?
		
Click to expand...

Just looked at the live feed and vehicles are flowing along nicely, perhaps it's just a road infrastructure issue or bottleneck at peak times into a smallish area, not uncommon?
Again 98%, explain that away.


----------



## chrisd (Feb 1, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Also Gibraltarians voted 98% remain so EU deosn't appear to be the evil empire to them.
		
Click to expand...

They could see the demands from Spain escalating if the vote was to leave, they were looking after their best interests


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Again 98%, explain that away.
		
Click to expand...

This does it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum


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## User62651 (Feb 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			They could see the demands from Spain escalating if the vote was to leave,* they were looking after their best interests*

Click to expand...

If only we were too.
Oh well.


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## chrisd (Feb 1, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			If only we were too.
Oh well.
		
Click to expand...

Oh we were, most definitely


----------



## User62651 (Feb 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Oh we were, most definitely
		
Click to expand...

Well who knows but hey, we've gone full circle right back at the start again......


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## Foxholer (Feb 1, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Just looked at the live feed and vehicles are flowing along nicely, perhaps it's just a road infrastructure issue or bottleneck at peak times into a smallish area, not uncommon?
Again 98%, explain that away.
		
Click to expand...

Slightly picky, but....Perhaps easier to explain the 9*6*% (95.91) that was the real number! 

The 98% (almost 99%) was for a different referendum!


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## harpo_72 (Feb 1, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Oh we were, most definitely
		
Click to expand...

Not really, donâ€™t think you considered the economic growth or that we may have restarted an Irish problem.
Pretty selfish really


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not really, donâ€™t think you considered the economic growth or that we may have restarted an Irish problem.
Pretty selfish really
		
Click to expand...

Careful
An MP warned about this in the Commons last week and quite a few very badly behaved Tory MP's  started yelling IRA sympathiser at him.


----------



## chrisd (Feb 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not really, donâ€™t think you considered the economic growth or that we may have restarted an Irish problem.
Pretty selfish really
		
Click to expand...

I dont agree on either point


----------



## Slime (Feb 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not really, *donâ€™t think you considered the economic growth or that we may have restarted an Irish problem.*
Pretty selfish really
		
Click to expand...

I didn't even consider how much it might piss you off .................................. how remiss of me!


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Feb 2, 2019)

During this whole issue it has appalled me at the near acceptance of a return to violence if borders return to Ireland. This is 2019, it's supposed to be a modern, civilised country. I know the history but this would not be accepted so casually anywhere else in the UK. I find it incredibly sad.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not really, donâ€™t think you considered the economic growth or that we may have restarted an Irish problem.
Pretty selfish really
		
Click to expand...

Economic growth in the EU is looking rather shakey right now, looks like many are slipping into recession now they have stopped quantitative easing which has been giving a false impression of growth . Might be a good time to leave.

I can't remember the EU being a signatory to the good Friday agreement, is it anything to do with them?  At the moment it seems their interference is muddying the waters.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 2, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			During this whole issue it has appalled me at the near acceptance of a return to violence if borders return to Ireland. This is 2019, it's supposed to be a modern, civilised country. I know the history but this would not be accepted so casually anywhere else in the UK. I find it incredibly sad.
		
Click to expand...

I cannot understand who would actually be building these â€œBordersâ€...Britain has said it will not, the Irish and the EU certainly wonâ€™t, so really itâ€™s just more project fear with the threat of sectarian violence to give it more clout.


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## Foxholer (Feb 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...
I can't remember the EU being a signatory to the good Friday agreement, is it anything to do with them?  At the moment it seems their interference is muddying the waters.
		
Click to expand...

There are several issues concerning the Good Friday Agreement and the EU, though there seems to be a lot of 'spin' that has been generated as well. As far as I know, the EU wasn't actually involved in that agreement, but some of the text and clauses mean that it DOES have an interest! Check out the 'Constitutional Relevance' section of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement#Status_of_Northern_Ireland


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## Fade and Die (Feb 2, 2019)

But how is this possible fearmongers? ðŸ¤”

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/...6Hmio_FuHRb3xc-cDlklDHYkmf7HSwTOHjCUjJxCb4zik


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 2, 2019)

May doing her DUP cash for votes black arts on Labour MP's now.
Imagine the uproar if the EU have used this tactic.


----------



## PieMan (Feb 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			May doing her DUP cash for votes black arts on Labour MP's now.
Imagine the uproar if the EU have used this tactic.
		
Click to expand...

The EU Commission does this in every single negotiation - how do you think regulations and directives ever get agreed? Lost count of the number of times my 'allies' in negotiations suddenly go from being very firm on their lines to accepting what's put in front of them!


----------



## IanM (Feb 2, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			What strange logic.
The British are choosing to make the crossing difficult if you're having trouble going in surely, not the EU or Spain?
Also Gibraltarians voted 98% remain so EU deosn't appear to be the evil empire to them.
		
Click to expand...


Point spectacularly not understood or ignored..... Again.


----------



## Sweep (Feb 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Lost his commitment... back pedal billy
		
Click to expand...

If Comrade Corbyn has suggested it you would been all over it.


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## Sweep (Feb 2, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			During this whole issue it has appalled me at the near acceptance of a return to violence if borders return to Ireland. This is 2019, it's supposed to be a modern, civilised country. I know the history but this would not be accepted so casually anywhere else in the UK. I find it incredibly sad.
		
Click to expand...

When the car bomb went off in Londonderry last week a vote was held at Derry City and Strabane Council to condemn the bombing. Unbelievably the vote was tied in favour and against condemning the terrorist act. It took the intervention of the Mayor to pass the vote to condemn by one vote.
That is what you are up against.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 2, 2019)

Sweep,  staggering.  I hadn't heard that.

I didn't 'like' the post as it just seemed wrong to like it. Thanks for posting it, soul destroying though.


----------



## Sweep (Feb 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There are several issues concerning the Good Friday Agreement and the EU, though there seems to be a lot of 'spin' that has been generated as well. As far as I know, the EU wasn't actually involved in that agreement, but some of the text and clauses mean that it DOES have an interest! Check out the 'Constitutional Relevance' section of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement#Status_of_Northern_Ireland

Click to expand...

I have an interest in the great success of Manchester United under Alex Ferguson. It doesnâ€™t mean I was involved. However, I am sure I can spin it to make it sound like I was.


----------



## Sweep (Feb 2, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sweep,  staggering.  I hadn't heard that.

I didn't 'like' the post as it just seemed wrong to like it. Thanks for posting it, soul destroying though.
		
Click to expand...

Sinn Fein were prepared to say they opposed it but refused to vote to condemn it.
As you say, absolutely staggering.


----------



## ger147 (Feb 2, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Sinn Fein were prepared to say they opposed it but refused to vote to condemn it.
As you say, absolutely staggering.
		
Click to expand...

I'm actually staggered/amazed that a vote is required to decide if acts of terrorism are to be condemned.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I'm actually staggered/amazed that a vote is required to decide if acts of terrorism are to be condemned.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....r-casts-deciding-vote-after-tie-37748237.html

Also a bit in this about the tensions over Brexit and border 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....and-police-condemn-reckless-derry-bomb-attack

When you add in comments from Airbus and N Ireland could easily snap over it all


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 2, 2019)

Sweep said:



			When the car bomb went off in Londonderry last week a vote was held at Derry City and Strabane Council to condemn the bombing. Unbelievably the vote was tied in favour and against condemning the terrorist act. It took the intervention of the Mayor to pass the vote to condemn by one vote.
That is what you are up against.
		
Click to expand...

There have been at least one incident a week in NI going on for several years however for some reason the media have not been reporting it, now it appears the media think it's big news. Draw your own conclusions.

It's also been suggested that there was no mention of the border in the Good Friday Agreement.


----------



## Sweep (Feb 2, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			But how is this possible fearmongers? ðŸ¤”

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/...6Hmio_FuHRb3xc-cDlklDHYkmf7HSwTOHjCUjJxCb4zik

Click to expand...

Did Japan have to sign up for freedom of movement, European laws etc etc... what about the customs union? No?
Maybe it like all those utility and credit card companies and BT/Sky/Virgin. All the good deals are only for new customers and not for those that have supported them for 45+ years


----------



## Sweep (Feb 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			May doing her DUP cash for votes black arts on Labour MP's now.
Imagine the uproar if the EU have used this tactic.
		
Click to expand...

As long as she doesnâ€™t do it with the SNP.


----------



## IanM (Feb 2, 2019)

Check out @AgentP22â€™s Tweet: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090612018791493632
Just f'Doon


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 2, 2019)

Sweep said:



			When the car bomb went off in Londonderry last week a vote was held at Derry City and Strabane Council to condemn the bombing. Unbelievably the vote was tied in favour and against condemning the terrorist act. It took the intervention of the Mayor to pass the vote to condemn by one vote.
That is what you are up against.
		
Click to expand...




Sweep said:



			Sinn Fein were prepared to say they opposed it but refused to vote to condemn it.
As you say, absolutely staggering.
		
Click to expand...

Just to ensure that the 'full story' about the vote is told..... As per the 1st link in LPP's post, Sinn Fein actually proposed the initial vote to 'oppose' it, but an amendment, subsequently passed with the Mayor's  was introduced to 'condemn' it.


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 2, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I have an interest in the great success of Manchester United under Alex Ferguson. It doesnâ€™t mean I was involved. *However, I am sure I can spin it to make it sound like I was.*

Click to expand...

Seems you didn't absorb (or maybe even read!) the link I provided. It clearly indicates (at least, to me) the connection, therefore involvement, of the EU!

And re the bold bit...I'm sure you could too!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....r-casts-deciding-vote-after-tie-37748237.html

Also a bit in this about the tensions over Brexit and border

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....and-police-condemn-reckless-derry-bomb-attack

When you add in comments from Airbus and N Ireland could easily snap over it all
		
Click to expand...

So it's the fault of Brexit.


----------



## Sweep (Feb 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Just to ensure that the 'full story' about the vote is told..... As per the 1st link in LPP's post, Sinn Fein actually proposed the initial vote to 'oppose' it, but an amendment, subsequently passed with the Mayor's  was introduced to 'condemn' it.
		
Click to expand...

Isnâ€™t that what I said? Thanks for the clarification but it wasnâ€™t needed.
No matter how it is dressed up, Sinn Fein actually voted against condemning a terrorist attack. 
It seems to me that the other parties saw right through Sinn Feinâ€™s Proposal and showed them up for what they are. If Sinn Fein had won the vote against the amendment, if it wasnâ€™t for the Mayor, the council would have actually voted against condemning a terrorist attack.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's the fault of Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously? Where has anyone suggested â€œitâ€™s the fault of Brexitâ€ - for a self proclaimed intelligent bloke you certainly know how to say something stupid


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 2, 2019)

Sweep said:



			...
If Sinn Fein had won the vote against the amendment, if it wasnâ€™t for the Mayor, the council would have actually voted against condemning a terrorist attack.
		
Click to expand...

But, in all likelihood, would have voted to 'oppose' it.


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## Sweep (Feb 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Seems you didn't absorb (or maybe even read!) the link I provided. It clearly indicates (at least, to me) the connection, therefore involvement, of the EU!

And re the bold bit...I'm sure you could too!
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t worry. We are all fully aware that you have googled â€œGood Friday Agreementâ€. 
The EU has an interest because Ireland is an EU country as is the UK for now. Other than that, itâ€™s all spin.


----------



## Sweep (Feb 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			But, in all likelihood, would have voted to 'oppose' it.
		
Click to expand...

Well, as they tabled the proposal it would be strange if they didnâ€™t.
You seem to be defending Sinn Fein voting against condemning a terrorist act. Do you really think this is a matter of language?


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 2, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Well, as they tabled the proposal it would be strange if they didnâ€™t.
...
		
Click to expand...

Re-read my post - and notice the important words 'the council' in the bit of YOUR post that I quoted!



Sweep said:



			...
You seem to be defending Sinn Fein voting against condemning a terrorist act. Do you really think this is a matter of language?
		
Click to expand...

Not at all - though I can understand how you could take that (erroneous, I can assure you) view. Simply making certain that ALL the relevant facts are 'visible'!

In matters about Ireland, 'language' seems, to me, to be extremely (often obscenely) important to all 'sides'!


----------



## Sweep (Feb 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Re-read my post - and notice the important words 'the council' in the bit of YOUR post that I quoted!


Not at all - though I can understand how you could take that (erroneous, I can assure you) view. Simply making certain that ALL the relevant facts are 'visible'!

In matters about Ireland, 'language' seems, to me, to be extremely (often obscenely) important to all 'sides'!
		
Click to expand...

ALL facts were â€œvisibleâ€


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 2, 2019)

IanM said:



			Check out @AgentP22â€™s Tweet: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1090612018791493632
Just f'Doon
		
Click to expand...

Do you seriously think that the rUK government would not trade with an Independent Scotland.
How will they replace all that water/ clean electric power/food etc.

 May is totally out of touch of anything north of Watford.
But hey ho you think she is a great leader


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seriously? Where has anyone suggested â€œitâ€™s the fault of Brexitâ€ - for a self proclaimed intelligent bloke you certainly know how to say something stupid
		
Click to expand...

You are a bit odd. In your post you mentioned Brexit and the border, are you now denying it with the mandatory insult to back it up.


----------



## USER1999 (Feb 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you seriously think that the rUK government would not trade with an Independent Scotland.
How will they replace all that water/ clean electric power/food etc.

May is totally out of touch of anything north of Watford.
But hey ho you think she is a great leader

Click to expand...

I live in North Watford. She isn't great.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 2, 2019)

I don't think anyone outside of her own house thinks she is even an average leader, never mind a great one.


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## IanM (Feb 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you seriously think that the rUK government would not trade with an Independent Scotland.
How will they replace all that water/ clean electric power/food etc.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s funny, youâ€™ve spent 2 years telling us that the EU wonâ€™t trade with an independent UK!


----------



## robinthehood (Feb 2, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-47102708

Sigh.


----------



## drdel (Feb 2, 2019)

IanM said:



			Thatâ€™s funny, youâ€™ve spent 2 years telling us that the EU wonâ€™t trade with an independent UK!
		
Click to expand...

According to the sacremongers we don't do anything outside the EU. Funny because retailers are criticised for paying low wages to Indian workers (among


Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you seriously think that the rUK government would not trade with an Independent Scotland.
How will they replace all that water/ clean electric power/food etc.

May is totally out of touch of anything north of Watford.
But hey ho you think she is a great leader

Click to expand...

But Sturgeon and Corbyn are so much better!!


----------



## harpo_72 (Feb 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-47102708

Sigh.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s not surprising a global slump, the gateway into Europe with a European derivative car. They will source around Europe for parts. They are in a mind blowingly competitive sector, consumers donâ€™t want to pay over the odds. When the dust settles and we see what the trade deals are they will decide. Lots of car makers are pulling development budgets, looking at unnecessary spending.
The trade deal we have should not be just about cars it should be about the components, if these jobs are to be maintained.


----------



## harpo_72 (Feb 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are a bit odd. In your post you mentioned Brexit and the border, are you now denying it with the mandatory insult to back it up.
		
Click to expand...

Do you post anything about golf?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-47102708

Sigh.
		
Click to expand...

Far more to do with falling demand for larger SUV's and particularly diesel powered versions than it is to do with Brexit. 

Similar story  at JLR who have been affected by  a 44% fall in sales in China as well as the diesel issue.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you post anything about golf?
		
Click to expand...

Err, yes, try taking a look but if theres anything you want some help with then dont be shy in asking.

What are you trying to make from that comment, silly point scoring I guess.  You really need to grow up as you are making yourself look like you are incapable of discussing this subject without silly put downs.  Although, as a remainer you are not alone in that respect.


----------



## Sweep (Feb 2, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			I live in North Watford. She isn't great.
		
Click to expand...

That raises a very important question. Is North Watford north of Watford? Or is it part of Watford and therefore anything north of north Watford is north of Watford? ðŸ˜€


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

Sweep said:



			That raises a very important question. Is North Watford north of Watford? Or is it part of Watford and therefore anything north of north Watford is north of Watford? ðŸ˜€
		
Click to expand...

Deffo south of Preston ðŸ˜‚


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...You really need to grow up as you are making yourself look like you are incapable of discussing this subject without silly put downs...
		
Click to expand...

Quote of the day (well, yesterday)!  Unfortunately!  As, imo, it devalues some/many of your otherwise quite reasonable points!


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Quote of the day (well, yesterday)!  Unfortunately!  As, imo, it devalues some/many of your otherwise quite reasonable points!
		
Click to expand...

OK Foxy but you read his post.  Do you not have a similar comment for that.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			But Sturgeon and Corbyn are so much better!!
		
Click to expand...

Sturgeon clearly is, she is popular and represents the folks who voted for her.
Corbyn.....I'll give you that one.


----------



## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

How many pages was the previous brexit thread?


----------



## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Err, yes, try taking a look but if theres anything you want some help with then dont be shy in asking.

What are you trying to make from that comment, silly point scoring I guess.  You really need to grow up as you are making yourself look like you are incapable of discussing this subject without silly put downs.  Although, as a remainer you are not alone in that respect.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s a bit defensive...or your original post was, you obviously edited to soften the response.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2019)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/

Jings that escalated quickly.


----------



## Fade and Die (Feb 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/

Jings that escalated quickly.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ‘


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK Foxy but you read his post.  Do you not  have a similar comment for that.
		
Click to expand...

Yes!

Or should that be 'No'!  Note the smiley I added to the quote!

FWIW.... I *tend* to differentiate between 'negative' comments about a post as opposed to 'negative' comments about the poster! I believe that fits with the Forum Rules.


----------



## IanM (Feb 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/

Jings that escalated quickly.
		
Click to expand...

The Times.  Oh my.  Got to be the daftest thing written in the mass media campaign to keep us tied to the EU.

Meanwhile, EU flags were burned in riots across France last night.............. and our TV and Print Media are not mentioning.  Funny eh, it's as if they have an agenda!


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2019)

IanM said:



			The Times.  Oh my.  Got to be the daftest thing written in the mass media campaign to keep us tied to the EU.

Meanwhile, EU flags were burned in riots across France last night.............. and our TV and Print Media are not mentioning.  Funny eh, it's as if they have an agenda!

Click to expand...

If it was last night then it wouldn't be in the print media, would it. 
And if it's the continuation of the yellow vests protests then it's on the BBC website.


----------



## GreiginFife (Feb 3, 2019)




----------



## IanM (Feb 3, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			If it was last night then it wouldn't be in the print media, would it.
And if it's the continuation of the yellow vests protests then it's on the BBC website.
		
Click to expand...

Print media ok if it were last night only, which it isnt... I checked the BBC News and World News before posting and it isnt on there...checked again and no sign on front page or world news...


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 3, 2019)

IanM said:



			Print media ok if it were last night only, which it isnt... I checked the BBC News and World News before posting and it isnt on there...checked again and no sign on front page or world news...
		
Click to expand...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47101435

No mention of flag burning but to be fair, it's just a continuation of a protest that's been going on for weeks. It's hardly new news now.

Just checked, even my old prison warden, The Daily Express has been reporting on EU flag burning by the protestors last month. Quite hard to claim that the Express is pro EU.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Feb 3, 2019)

Who exactly is going to riot after Brexit? Seriously, who? No one is the answer to that. 

Those types of stories are plain embarrassing, anyone actually believing them I despair for.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Far more to do with falling demand for larger SUV's and particularly diesel powered versions than it is to do with Brexit.

Similar story  at JLR who have been affected by  a 44% fall in sales in China as well as the diesel issue.
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561

But they have just moved the manufacturing to Japan instead - so if itâ€™s the demand thatâ€™s the issue why are they continuing with production- if it because of the uncertainty of Brexit and the affects itâ€™s not great - either way itâ€™s a loss of jobs in an area that has had its fair share of issues



SocketRocket said:



			You are a bit odd. In your post you mentioned Brexit and the border, are you now denying it with the mandatory insult to back it up.
		
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Seriously ? You were clearly suggesting I was insinuating that the troubles ( bombing ) was down to Brexit and nowhere was that suggested

Your attitude towards people who voted to stay in is a disgrace - you look down on them with some arrogant self entitlement that your vote is more worthy than anyone elseâ€™s.

Maybe one day you would actually think of the affect this whole process has on others and how damaging it is for some people - but I donâ€™t think you actually care


Anyway - as for the rioting - wonâ€™t happen , dispite all the issues 99% of people will knuckle down and try their very best to make things work regardless ( shame the politicians canâ€™t ) - and you only have to look at the protests that have happened since the vote - remain have protested - peacefully , Yellow hi vests not so much.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 3, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Who exactly is going to riot after Brexit? Seriously, who? No one is the answer to that.

Those types of stories are plain embarrassing, anyone actually believing them I despair for.
		
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Absolutely correct... Unlike the very real threat of rioting if we do not Brexit.


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## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561

But they have just moved the manufacturing to Japan instead - so if itâ€™s the demand thatâ€™s the issue why are they continuing with production- if it because of the uncertainty of Brexit and the affects itâ€™s not great - either way itâ€™s a loss of jobs in an area that has had its fair share of issues
		
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Its not the loss of jobs. Not one single Nissan employee or any in any of the service industries supporting Nissan there will lose their job over this. The existing plant remains. Nor are they moving production to Japan. The X-Trail was to be a new plant, and its new investment they missed out on. Facts 'v' spin. Say its jobs losses and it sounds worse.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its not the loss of jobs. Not one single Nissan employee or any in any of the service industries supporting Nissan there will lose their job over this. The existing plant remains. Nor are they moving production to Japan. The X-Trail was to be a new plant, and its new investment they missed out on. Facts 'v' spin. Say its jobs losses and it sounds worse.
		
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Will rephrase then - 

The new production was to â€œcreateâ€ a good number of new jobs in an area that needs them , it was good investment in the manufacturing industry based in the NE - that investment will not be going to the area anymore so those â€œnewâ€ jobs will no longer be created

Either way i guess itâ€™s now just got to the stage of arguing over semantics when the impact of the actual issue is a negative one and according to the company Brexit is one of the reasons why - so either way itâ€™s not good


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## dewsweeper (Feb 3, 2019)

Think this is my first contribution to this thread ( can't be sure of that at my age ) but I have followed it with some interest , the good , the had and the ugly.
I can't recall any mention of Nigel Farage's speech to the EU Assembly.
Not a fan of NF but I thought it was a very strong attack on some reasons people like myself voted out.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Who exactly is going to riot after Brexit? Seriously, who? No one is the answer to that. 

Those types of stories are plain embarrassing, anyone actually believing them I despair for.
		
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Hang on if we donâ€™t leave certain elements have suggested/implied they will protest... (!)


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Hang on if we donâ€™t leave certain elements have suggested/implied they will protest... (!)
		
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Protest, yes, riot no. I haven't heard anyone suggest civil unrest if we actually act upon the referendum as agreed. 2yrs plus since the referendum and no one has felt the need to riot so far.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its not the loss of jobs. Not one single Nissan employee or any in any of the service industries supporting Nissan there will lose their job over this. The existing plant remains. Nor are they moving production to Japan. The X-Trail was to be a new plant, and its new investment they missed out on. Facts 'v' spin. Say its jobs losses and it sounds worse.
		
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If it was truly Brexit related would the line not go to another plant in the EU? This is moving production to a different continent. No question that Brexit would have some impact,  the auto industry moves products all over Europe, but to move it to Japan suggest another key factor in the decision.


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## Sweep (Feb 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561

But they have just moved the manufacturing to Japan instead - so if itâ€™s the demand thatâ€™s the issue why are they continuing with production- if it because of the uncertainty of Brexit and the affects itâ€™s not great - either way itâ€™s a loss of jobs in an area that has had its fair share of issues



Seriously ? You were clearly suggesting I was insinuating that the troubles ( bombing ) was down to Brexit and nowhere was that suggested

Your attitude towards people who voted to stay in is a disgrace - you look down on them with some arrogant self entitlement that your vote is more worthy than anyone elseâ€™s.

Maybe one day you would actually think of the affect this whole process has on others and how damaging it is for some people - but I donâ€™t think you actually care


Anyway - as for the rioting - wonâ€™t happen , dispite all the issues 99% of people will knuckle down and try their very best to make things work regardless ( shame the politicians canâ€™t ) - and you only have to look at the protests that have happened since the vote - remain have protested - peacefully , Yellow hi vests not so much.
		
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The yellow vest protests in France have very little to do with the EU or â€œFrexitâ€ unless some believe the EU has some responsibility for economic injustice, high fuel prices and cost of living which is probably a fair assumption. I even googled it for you to save you the trouble 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement
The lack of news coverage in the mainstream media is probably to blame for you thinking that the violence is all coming from the protesters. It isnâ€™t. There is some appalling coverage of police violence that would and should never be tolerated in a civilised society. Truly shocking.
But thatâ€™s your beloved EU for you. The land of milk and honey.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2019)

Sweep said:



			The yellow vest protests in France have very little to do with the EU or â€œFrexitâ€ unless some believe the EU has some responsibility for economic injustice, high fuel prices and cost of living which is probably a fair assumption. I even googled it for you to save you the trouble
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement
The lack of news coverage in the mainstream media is probably to blame for you thinking that the violence is all coming from the protesters. It isnâ€™t. There is some appalling coverage of police violence that would and should never be tolerated in a civilised society. Truly shocking.
But thatâ€™s your beloved EU for you. The land of milk and honey.
		
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Umm sorry to disappoint you but Iâ€™m talking about the troubles in this country  - why are you going on about France

Maybe you should have googled that instead

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-vests-parliament-square-westminster-riot/amp

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inew...or-trying-to-blockade-westminster-bridge/amp/


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Your attitude towards people who voted to stay in is a disgrace - you look down on them with some arrogant self entitlement that your vote is more worthy than anyone elseâ€™s.

Maybe one day you would actually think of the affect this whole process has on others and how damaging it is for some people - but I donâ€™t think you actually care
		
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Why make a qualified reply when a character assassination will do.
Anyhow, no time for this. just got in from the fox hunt and the horses need a rubdown and feed, the Stable boy is due his weekly kicking and those Tennant farmers aren't going to evict themselves and burn down their cottages.  Don't know how I'm going to fit in the trip to Highgrove.


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## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If it was truly Brexit related would the line not go to another plant in the EU? This is moving production to a different continent. No question that Brexit would have some impact,  the auto industry moves products all over Europe, but to move it to Japan suggest another key factor in the decision.
		
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TBH, if you look at car manufacturing globally its down massively. And if you look at it by car type, e.g. 4x4/diesel, you'll see an even bigger drop. I dare say the devil is in the detail but I wonder just what Nissan are intending to do with their X-Trail manufacturing. A small production line? A retooling? I dare say Brexit does give the company the opportunity to lay some of the blame elsewhere, appeasing shareholders a little and mitigating any loss of confidence in the board. 

Disappointing without a doubt but would the decision be the same if Brexit wasn't happening? It might well be.


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## Foxholer (Feb 3, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If it was truly Brexit related would the line not go to another plant in the EU? This is moving production to a different continent. No question that Brexit would have some impact,  the auto industry moves products all over Europe, but to move it to Japan suggest another key factor in the decision.
		
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Perhaps, but it might well (also) be related to the Free Trade Agreement that was activated a couple of days ago!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its not the loss of jobs. Not one single Nissan employee or any in any of the service industries supporting Nissan there will lose their job over this. The existing plant remains. Nor are they moving production to Japan. The X-Trail was to be a new plant, and its new investment they missed out on. Facts 'v' spin. Say its jobs losses and it sounds worse.
		
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Come on now, stop ruining a good Brexit put-down.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its not the loss of jobs. Not one single Nissan employee or any in any of the service industries supporting Nissan there will lose their job over this. The existing plant remains. Nor are they moving production to Japan. The X-Trail was to be a new plant, and its new investment they missed out on. Facts 'v' spin. Say its jobs losses and it sounds worse.
		
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Think you might want to rethink that, a development drives a need for engineering resource. That resource is local as well.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Come on now, stop ruining a good Brexit put-down.
		
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Itâ€™s not a brexit put down. The industry is going in decline world economies are contracting, these companies are looking at cost saves. 
Letâ€™s phrase it this way, Brexit is not a sure fire resolution to car sales.

Now iâ€™ll Wait for the forum oracles to tell me otherwise.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			TBH, if you look at car manufacturing globally its down massively. And if you look at it by car type, e.g. 4x4/diesel, you'll see an even bigger drop. I dare say the devil is in the detail but I wonder just what Nissan are intending to do with their X-Trail manufacturing. A small production line? A retooling? I dare say Brexit does give the company the opportunity to lay some of the blame elsewhere, appeasing shareholders a little and mitigating any loss of confidence in the board. 

Disappointing without a doubt but would the decision be the same if Brexit wasn't happening? It might well be.
		
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It might well be, but the product range and tech they are deploying is out of date for the market requirements. They have hybrids and electrics but not across the whole model range and it sounds like they donâ€™t have one coming in the next six months.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Who exactly is going to riot after Brexit? Seriously, who? No one is the answer to that.

Those types of stories are plain embarrassing, anyone actually believing them I despair for.
		
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But, but it is THEEE Times, are you implying that this bastion of truth to the educated classes is not telling the truth.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			But, but it is THEEE Times, are you implying that this bastion of truth to the educated classes is not telling the truth.
		
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ðŸ¤” Yup ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will rephrase then -

The new production was to â€œcreateâ€ a good number of new jobs in an area that needs them , it was good investment in the manufacturing industry based in the NE - that investment will not be going to the area anymore so those â€œnewâ€ jobs will no longer be created

Either way i guess itâ€™s now just got to the stage of arguing over semantics when the impact of the actual issue is a negative one and according to the company Brexit is one of the reasons why - so either way itâ€™s not good
		
Click to expand...

Just admit you got it wrong and no one is losing their job over it.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s not a brexit put down. The industry is going in decline world economies are contracting, these companies are looking at cost saves.
Letâ€™s phrase it this way, Brexit is not a sure fire resolution to car sales.

Now iâ€™ll Wait for the forum oracles to tell me otherwise.
		
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If you think yours is the only valid view then who are we to spoil your illusion.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Just admit you got it wrong and no one is losing their job over it.
		
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Not sure if your over confident, or ignorant? This is just stage one.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If you think yours is the only valid view then who are we to spoil your illusion.
		
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Itâ€™s as valid as yours ... well may be more so, because your totally deluded.


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## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Think you might want to rethink that, a development drives a need for engineering resource. That resource is local as well.
		
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No rethink required. I said it isn't a job loss as the job doesn't exist. Its a loss of potential jobs. If I was to blame anyone for that loss it could be laid against Brexit if it wasn't for the fact that most car manufacturers are holding back at present. Equally, and its well documented, it could be also laid at the EU's door, including the UK, as the policy on diesels has been up in the air for a couple of years now.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s as valid as yours ... well may be more so, because your totally deluded.
		
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Correct! I once thought you were only slightly bigoted, now I know I was totally deluded.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			No rethink required. I said it isn't a job loss as the job doesn't exist. Its a loss of potential jobs. If I was to blame anyone for that loss it could be laid against Brexit if it wasn't for the fact that most car manufacturers are holding back at present. Equally, and its well documented, it could be also laid at the EU's door, including the UK, as the policy on diesels has been up in the air for a couple of years now.
		
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I donâ€™t argue that the legislation and government policies donâ€™t impact, and I think we agree that there is a general slump. Brexit as I have stated, doesnâ€™t offer a fix. 
Where I contest your statement regards jobs, they will trim down development teams. Nissan will have teams that make the car more European than Asian as the markets differ significantly in likes, wants and needs.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Correct! i know I was totally deluded.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

You missed the bit about you being totally bigoted.

Just saying ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Just admit you got it wrong and no one is losing their job over it.
		
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Do you think that the loss of potential jobs that have gone in an area that needs employment is something to look to score points on ?

All the words itâ€™s all semantics but what doesnâ€™t change is your lack of sympathy for people that are affected by the current Brexit process

The company have said right out that they are changing things because of the uncertainty, I know another load of builders who have just lost their jobs because contracts have stopped and yes because of the uncertainty over Brexit - people each week are losing their job over this whole pathetic mess - and you spend most of your time arrogantly putting people down and trying to score points on here

This is peopleâ€™s livelihood, familyâ€™s possibly going to struggle , people are going to lose their homes , no one right now is profiting from this whole mess.

But as said people like you donâ€™t care

Itâ€™s interesting how hypocritical you are as well - whinge and cry when some makes a derogatory comment towards you because of your attitude yet you are more than happy to dish them out


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you think that the loss of potential jobs that have gone in an area that needs employment is something to look to score points on ?

All the words itâ€™s all semantics but what doesnâ€™t change is your lack of sympathy for people that are affected by the current Brexit process

The company have said right out that they are changing things because of the uncertainty, I know another load of builders who have just lost their jobs because contracts have stopped and yes because of the uncertainty over Brexit - people each week are losing their job over this whole pathetic mess - and you spend most of your time arrogantly putting people down and trying to score points on here

This is peopleâ€™s livelihood, familyâ€™s possibly going to struggle , people are going to lose their homes , no one right now is profiting from this whole mess.

But as said people like you donâ€™t care

Itâ€™s interesting how hypocritical you are as well - whinge and cry when some makes a derogatory comment towards you because of your attitude yet you are more than happy to dish them out
		
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Absolute drivel.


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## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I donâ€™t argue that the legislation and government policies donâ€™t impact, and I think we agree that there is a general slump. Brexit as I have stated, doesnâ€™t offer a fix.
Where I contest your statement regards jobs, they will trim down development teams. Nissan will have teams that make the car more European than Asian as the markets differ significantly in likes, wants and needs.
		
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The European development team, for all the cars sold in Europe is based at Cranfield. That includes cars manufactured outside of the EU. They'll still have input into the development of the European tweaked X-Trails, even though they'll be built in Japan. America also has a development team, and so on to Africa and the Far East.

We're splitting hairs. I don't think it will impact current jobs in the UK, you do... agree to differ.


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## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you think that the loss of potential jobs that have gone in an area that needs employment is something to look to score points on ?

All the words itâ€™s all semantics but what doesnâ€™t change is your lack of sympathy for people that are affected by the current Brexit process

The company have said right out that they are changing things because of the uncertainty, I know another load of builders who have just lost their jobs because contracts have stopped and yes because of the uncertainty over Brexit - people each week are losing their job over this whole pathetic mess - and you spend most of your time arrogantly putting people down and trying to score points on here

This is peopleâ€™s livelihood, familyâ€™s possibly going to struggle , people are going to lose their homes , no one right now is profiting from this whole mess.

But as said people like you donâ€™t care

Itâ€™s interesting how hypocritical you are as well - whinge and cry when some makes a derogatory comment towards you because of your attitude yet you are more than happy to dish them out
		
Click to expand...

You started out in post 5233 by saying loss of job, and now you're saying loss of potential jobs. You, as usual, moving the goal posts.

We all know its terrible news but you exaggerated it into loss of jobs. No it isn't loss of jobs. No one is losing their job in Sunderland because X-Trail production is going to be done in Japan.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You started out in post 5233 by saying loss of job, and now you're saying loss of potential jobs. You, as usual, moving the goal posts.

We all know its terrible news but you exaggerated it into loss of jobs. No it isn't loss of jobs. No one is losing their job in Sunderland because X-Trail production is going to be done in Japan.
		
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Itâ€™s semantics and you know exactly what was meant - people are just trying to twist things to ensure this is not a negative towards Brexit 

When it was announced that Nissan were going to create all these new jobs when they started manufacturing the X Trail it was lauded by people voting leave - lots of people saying - â€œ look Nissan arenâ€™t worried about Brexit , they are going to create all these new jobs for people â€œ and it was said all these fears about companies leaving was nonsense because â€œ look what Nissan are doing â€œ - it was all over the other thread from the expected people 

Now that Nissan have pulled the plug on that - the jobs that was creating have gone , simple as that , all that talk about look at these new jobs being created itâ€™s all gone now - but all those celebrating Nissan when the first announcement was made now dismiss Brexit as a reason for them cancelling - maybe itâ€™s head in sand time from those people 

Which ever way people want to squirm around - Nissan stopping this is bad for the area and they are saying itâ€™s because of Brexit.


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## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s semantics and you know exactly what was meant - people are just trying to twist things to ensure this is not a negative towards Brexit

When it was announced that Nissan were going to create all these new jobs when they started manufacturing the X Trail it was lauded by people voting leave - lots of people saying - â€œ look Nissan arenâ€™t worried about Brexit , they are going to create all these new jobs for people â€œ and it was said all these fears about companies leaving was nonsense because â€œ look what Nissan are doing â€œ - it was all over the other thread from the expected people

Now that Nissan have pulled the plug on that - the jobs that was creating have gone , simple as that , all that talk about look at these new jobs being created itâ€™s all gone now - but all those celebrating Nissan when the first announcement was made now dismiss Brexit as a reason for them cancelling - maybe itâ€™s head in sand time from those people

Which ever way people want to squirm around - Nissan stopping this is bad for the area and they are saying itâ€™s because of Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not disputing its a negative, a huge negative. What I am disputing is your accuracy. You call it semantics and I call it spin to make it look worse. You're either being lazy with your interpretation or posting a negative for effect. 

On the issue of jobs and car manufacturing. The USA continues significant overall jobs growth. But when you look at car manufacturing and jobs in that industry, in a blossoming country, you will see that its contracted 10%, which is 14% against the growth figure. Arguing the toss and blaming Brexit for something thats a global issue is an exaggeration. Yes Brexit is causing uncertainty and will impact on the industry but saying its THE reason for all the ills of the industry is just plain stupid.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s semantics and you know exactly what was meant - people are just trying to twist things to ensure this is not a negative towards Brexit

When it was announced that Nissan were going to create all these new jobs when they started manufacturing the X Trail it was lauded by people voting leave - lots of people saying - â€œ look Nissan arenâ€™t worried about Brexit , they are going to create all these new jobs for people â€œ and it was said all these fears about companies leaving was nonsense because â€œ look what Nissan are doing â€œ - it was all over the other thread from the expected people

Now that Nissan have pulled the plug on that - the jobs that was creating have gone , simple as that , all that talk about look at these new jobs being created itâ€™s all gone now - but all those celebrating Nissan when the first announcement was made now dismiss Brexit as a reason for them cancelling - maybe itâ€™s head in sand time from those people

Which ever way people want to squirm around - Nissan stopping this is bad for the area and they are saying itâ€™s because of Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Of course we would like to see more jobs come to the UK but its not all bad news, the UK has attracted more new Jobs year on year, millions of them.compare UK employment with other EU countries.

You are paranoid about Brexit and look to castigate anyone who supports it. You have no balance with reality but rather bleat on about anyone with a different view being heartless and completely selfish.  Get a grip on reality, most people who voted leave didnt do it for selfish reasons but because they believe it will create a better country to live in as opposed to the federalist direction the EU is taking us.

I await your normal vitriolic personal onslaught.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm not disputing its a negative, a huge negative. What I am disputing is your accuracy. You call it semantics and I call it spin to make it look worse. You're either being lazy with your interpretation or posting a negative for effect.

On the issue of jobs and car manufacturing. The USA continues significant overall jobs growth. But when you look at car manufacturing and jobs in that industry, in a blossoming country, you will see that its contracted 10%, which is 14% against the growth figure. Arguing the toss and blaming Brexit for something thats a global issue is an exaggeration. Yes Brexit is causing uncertainty and will impact on the industry but saying its THE reason for all the ills of the industry is just plain stupid.
		
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I donâ€™t believe I said that Brexit is the reason for all the ills ? Whilst yes I may have not put my Interpretation across well I certainly havenâ€™t blamed Brexit for everything?


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## robinthehood (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolute drivel.
		
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To be fair,  he seems to have you down to a T


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course we would like to see more jobs come to the UK but its not all bad news,* the UK has attracted more new Jobs year on year, millions of them.*compare UK employment with other EU countries.

You are paranoid about Brexit and look to castigate anyone who supports it. You have no balance with reality but rather bleat on about anyone with a different view being heartless and completely selfish.  Get a grip on reality, most people who voted leave didnt do it for selfish reasons but because they believe it will create a better country to live in as opposed to the federalist direction the EU is taking us.

I await your normal vitriolic personal onslaught.
		
Click to expand...

So that's all happened when we were in the EU then?  So when we leave the EU we will be able to attract even more?  Even though we are no longer in the largest trading bloc in the world?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			To be fair,  he seems to have you down to a T
		
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 You still up?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So that's all happened when we were in the EU then?  So when we leave the EU we will be able to attract even more?  Even though we are no longer in the largest trading bloc in the world?
		
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Do you think the EU created those jobs?  Our biggest growth area for trade has been outside the EU and this is increasing.

I feel that many EU countries will be going through a bad economic period now that the ECBs massive quantitative easing (which was giving false growth rates) has stopped. Are you also assuming the UK and EU will not continue to trade or have a new trade agreement ?


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## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The European development team, for all the cars sold in Europe is based at Cranfield. That includes cars manufactured outside of the EU. They'll still have input into the development of the European tweaked X-Trails, even though they'll be built in Japan. America also has a development team, and so on to Africa and the Far East.

We're splitting hairs. I don't think it will impact current jobs in the UK, you do... agree to differ.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ‘


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## Del_Boy (Feb 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you think that the loss of potential jobs that have gone in an area that needs employment is something to look to score points on ?

All the words itâ€™s all semantics but what doesnâ€™t change is your lack of sympathy for people that are affected by the current Brexit process

The company have said right out that they are changing things because of the uncertainty, I know another load of builders who have just lost their jobs because contracts have stopped and yes because of the uncertainty over Brexit - people each week are losing their job over this whole pathetic mess - and you spend most of your time arrogantly putting people down and trying to score points on here

This is peopleâ€™s livelihood, familyâ€™s possibly going to struggle , people are going to lose their homes , no one right now is profiting from this whole mess.

But as said people like you donâ€™t care

Itâ€™s interesting how hypocritical you are as well - whinge and cry when some makes a derogatory comment towards you because of your attitude yet you are more than happy to dish them out
		
Click to expand...

The firm I work for has now taken on another 5 people in the brexit department.  That department is now 10 strong


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## Fade and Die (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course we would like to see more jobs come to the UK but its not all bad news, the UK has attracted more new Jobs year on year, millions of them.compare UK employment with other EU countries.

*You are paranoid about Brexit and look to castigate anyone who supports it. You have no balance with reality but rather bleat on about anyone with a different view being heartless and completely selfish.  Get a grip on reality, most people who voted leave didnt do it for selfish reasons but because they believe it will create a better country to live in as opposed to the federalist direction the EU is taking us.*

I await your normal vitriolic personal onslaught.
		
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Nail. On. Head.


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## Foxholer (Feb 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course we would like to see more jobs come to the UK but its not all bad news, the UK has attracted more new Jobs year on year, millions of them.compare UK employment with other EU countries.
...
		
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Could this actually have been BECAUSE of UK membership of the EU?

Just asking!


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## USER1999 (Feb 3, 2019)

Sweep said:



			That raises a very important question. Is North Watford north of Watford? Or is it part of Watford and therefore anything north of north Watford is north of Watford? ðŸ˜€
		
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Well, if I take a leaf out of The Grove book of mappage, I am in Chandlers Cross. Sadly, I am in Watford  as is The Grove.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Could this actually have been BECAUSE of UK membership of the EU?

Just asking!
		
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Maybe, maybe not.
Why are these jobs not being generated in other EU countries, why do so many people wish to come here. What does the EU do for the UK that creates these jobs.

Just asking.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 3, 2019)

Looks like the EU got a good forward thinking deal in .. or just one in the eye to the UK. 
They could have played it cooler and got all the Japanese businesses in the low employment areas of Europe.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 4, 2019)

We've been bleeding jobs for the last forty years! The disgrace is that it's only become a concern in the last two....


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			We've been bleeding jobs for the last forty years! The disgrace is that it's only become a concern in the last two....
		
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Do you mean meaningful full time jobs...â€¦.seems to be plenty of zero - 16 hour jobs about.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you mean meaningful full time jobs...â€¦.seems to be plenty of zero - 16 hour jobs about.
		
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Yep...

As the guy from Siemens pointed out during QT last week... Middle income UK has been stripped bare of opportunities...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Yep...

As the guy from Siemens pointed out during QT last week... Middle income UK has been stripped bare of opportunities...
		
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And we still attract 350K immigrants a year.  Must still be better than their homelands.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you mean meaningful full time jobs...â€¦.seems to be plenty of zero - 16 hour jobs about.
		
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Those Mars Bars aren't going to fry them selves ðŸ¤”


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Umm sorry to disappoint you but Iâ€™m talking about the troubles in this country  - why are you going on about France

Maybe you should have googled that instead

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-vests-parliament-square-westminster-riot/amp

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inew...or-trying-to-blockade-westminster-bridge/amp/

Click to expand...

You are doing it again. You post a link about Irish troubles in relation to Brexit but then deny you you are making any such assumption and now you post about yellow vest protests and deny you are talking about France.
100 protesters in London is of no consequence and is in no way comparable to the protests across France. If you bother to read your own links, in the I article it says no arrests were made and the protests were â€œperhapsâ€ in favour of Brexit. BTW the I is remain on steroids. The ambulance blocking story has been largely discredited since.
In the Express (leave on steroids) article it says 4 people were arrested and one was a schoolgirl. I bet the police were quaking in their boots!
Hardly the mass violence you were insinuating.


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s not a brexit put down. The industry is going in decline world economies are contracting, these companies are looking at cost saves.
Letâ€™s phrase it this way, Brexit is not a sure fire resolution to car sales.

Now iâ€™ll Wait for the forum oracles to tell me otherwise.
		
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Letâ€™s phrase it this way, remaining is not a sure fire resolution to car sales.
If, as you say, itâ€™s a world problem, it canâ€™t be blamed on Brexit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 4, 2019)

Sweep said:



			You are doing it again. You post a link about Irish troubles in relation to Brexit but then deny you you are making any such assumption
		
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This thread gets worse from certain area -not once did I suggest the troubles in N Ireland were down to Brexit and itâ€™s just cheap point scoring from certain people to even try and suggest anything of the sort

The two links I posted where about the votes about the violence .




			and now you post about yellow vest protests and deny you are talking about France.
		
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Why the hell would I be talking about France when the conversation was about possible rioting in the UK ? I havenâ€™t got the first clue about whatâ€™s going on in France - doesnâ€™t concern me




			100 protesters in London is of no consequence and is in no way comparable to the protests across France.
		
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No one was comparing the two - the first person to bring up the France stuff was you




			If you bother to read your own links, in the I article it says no arrests were made and the protests were â€œperhapsâ€ in favour of Brexit. BTW the I is remain on steroids. The ambulance blocking story has been largely discredited since.
In the Express (leave on steroids) article it says 4 people were arrested and one was a schoolgirl. I bet the police were quaking in their boots!
Hardly the mass violence you were insinuating.
		
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Who said anything about mass violence ? Where exactly did I even get anywhere near to insinuate that there would be mass violence ?!?

The pathetic level the point scoring and the twisting people are getting to now are truly embarrassing- people like you and other Brexiters or whatever they are called are making things worse and if the country does explode and things do go badly when we leave maybe those people need to look at their own actions through this whole process

This thread was a decent read at one stage when some people werenâ€™t posting - now itâ€™s just attack after attack when someone posts who voted stay 

Worthless posting in it now


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Looks like the EU got a good forward thinking deal in .. or just one in the eye to the UK.
They could have played it cooler and got all the Japanese businesses in the low employment areas of Europe.
		
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Are you suggesting the EU did a deal with Japan to spite the UK?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2019)

Good question asked on Wings.
If the Tories really believe in that the NI Border can be solved by technology why are they not signing up to May's agreement.


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This thread gets worse from certain area -not once did I suggest the troubles in N Ireland were down to Brexit and itâ€™s just cheap point scoring from certain people to even try and suggest anything of the sort

The two links I posted where about the votes about the violence .



Why the hell would I be talking about France when the conversation was about possible rioting in the UK ? I havenâ€™t got the first clue about whatâ€™s going on in France - doesnâ€™t concern me



No one was comparing the two - the first person to bring up the France stuff was you



Who said anything about mass violence ? Where exactly did I even get anywhere near to insinuate that there would be mass violence ?!?

The pathetic level the point scoring and the twisting people are getting to now are truly embarrassing- people like you and other Brexiters or whatever they are called are making things worse and if the country does explode and things do go badly when we leave maybe those people need to look at their own actions through this whole process

This thread was a decent read at one stage when some people werenâ€™t posting - now itâ€™s just attack after attack when someone posts who voted stay

Worthless posting in it now
		
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Good grief!
In your post about the Londonderry bomb you put up a link - and I quote â€œAlso a bit in this about the tensions over Brexit and borderâ€
This clearly insinuates you are linking the two. Itâ€™s in the same damned post.
Then you mention the Yellow Vest protests without mentioning London and then when challenged you say you are not talking the thousands protesting in France where the yellow vest movement has become almost iconic and is worldwide news but you are really talking about 100 people in London, some of whom were schoolgirls.
And you did say that the yellow vest protests were not peaceful. I quote 
 â€œremain have protested - peacefully , Yellow hi vests not so much.â€
You are right though. Some of the posts on here are embarrassing, but I am sure we disagree on which ones. 
If you donâ€™t want to be challenged on what you post and you really didnâ€™t mean to link the NI troubles to Brexit or the yellow vests to France then you really need to write your posts more carefully.
And please, donâ€™t even start by suggesting that people like me, by expressing an opinion on a golf forum need to look at my actions in case violence erupts. Seriously what planet are you on?
To use your debating tactic, please show me where I have advocated violent protest.
And you are right. People do attack posts they donâ€™t agree with. Itâ€™s a debate. And you are just as much to blame as anyone else.


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good question asked on Wings.
If the Tories really believe in that the NI Border can be solved by technology why are they not signing up to May's agreement.
		
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Lots of reasons, mainly because it doesnâ€™t make allowances for the technology and getting out of the backstop was not unilaterally possible.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And we still attract 350K immigrants a year.  Must still be better than their homelands.
		
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An economy based on car wash operatives and nail bar workers won't last...


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## Sweep (Feb 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm not disputing its a negative, a huge negative. What I am disputing is your accuracy. You call it semantics and I call it spin to make it look worse. You're either being lazy with your interpretation or posting a negative for effect.

On the issue of jobs and car manufacturing. The USA continues significant overall jobs growth. But when you look at car manufacturing and jobs in that industry, in a blossoming country, you will see that its contracted 10%, which is 14% against the growth figure. Arguing the toss and blaming Brexit for something thats a global issue is an exaggeration. Yes Brexit is causing uncertainty and will impact on the industry but saying its THE reason for all the ills of the industry is just plain stupid.
		
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From Autoexpress.co.uk
Critics were quick to hold Nissanâ€™s reported decision up as an example of the Brexit malaise said to be gripping car companies ahead of the UKâ€™s departure from the EU on 29 March, but the true reasons behind it are likely to be more numerous than Brexit alone. 

Nissan produced 10.7 per cent fewer cars in the UK last year than they did in 2017, for example. The X-Trail is also a relatively large SUV and is well-paired with a diesel engine, however sales of diesel-engined cars declined by almost 30 per cent in 2018.

And, while the X-Trail's diesel engines come from business partner Renault in relatively nearby France, the model's petrol engines would have to be shipped over from Japan. Finally, while the Qashqai has been a huge success for Nissan, the larger X-Trail is a far less common sight on UK roads.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			An economy based on car wash operatives and nail bar workers won't last...
		
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True


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This thread gets worse from certain area -not once did I suggest the troubles in N Ireland were down to Brexit and itâ€™s just cheap point scoring from certain people to even try and suggest anything of the sort

The two links I posted where about the votes about the violence .



Why the hell would I be talking about France when the conversation was about possible rioting in the UK ? I havenâ€™t got the first clue about whatâ€™s going on in France - doesnâ€™t concern me



No one was comparing the two - the first person to bring up the France stuff was you



Who said anything about mass violence ? Where exactly did I even get anywhere near to insinuate that there would be mass violence ?!?

The pathetic level the point scoring and the twisting people are getting to now are truly embarrassing- people like you and other Brexiters or whatever they are called are making things worse and if the country does explode and things do go badly when we leave maybe those people need to look at their own actions through this whole process

This thread was a decent read at one stage when some people werenâ€™t posting - now itâ€™s just attack after attack when someone posts who voted stay

Worthless posting in it now
		
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Me thinks you protesteth too much.


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## drdel (Feb 4, 2019)

I'm somewhat confused by Varadkar's increasingly dictatorial stance and disappointed that he seems to be inferring violence is almost inevitable. Given  that the Republic's economy is pretty entwined with the UK's I had thought he'd want to be looking forward and encourage a free trade style of relationship and the UK and EU to demonstrate pragmatism in the way some Eastern members have with more uncertain/unstable borders.


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## robinthehood (Feb 4, 2019)

Sweep said:



			From Autoexpress.co.uk
Critics were quick to hold Nissanâ€™s reported decision up as an example of the Brexit malaise said to be gripping car companies ahead of the UKâ€™s departure from the EU on 29 March, but the true reasons behind it are likely to be more numerous than Brexit alone. 

Nissan produced 10.7 per cent fewer cars in the UK last year than they did in 2017, for example. The X-Trail is also a relatively large SUV and is well-paired with a diesel engine, however sales of diesel-engined cars declined by almost 30 per cent in 2018.

And, while the X-Trail's diesel engines come from business partner Renault in relatively nearby France, the model's petrol engines would have to be shipped over from Japan. Finally, while the Qashqai has been a huge success for Nissan, the larger X-Trail is a far less common sight on UK roads.
		
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From a follow up article, car industry investment in 2015 was 2.5bil.
last year just 600m. 
Any major changes in that time ?


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			From a follow up article, car industry investment in 2015 was 2.5bil.
last year just 600m.
Any major changes in that time ?
		
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Potentially the obvious one but the whole diesel engine issue is massive as has been the drive for mfrs to meet new testing targets. Most of Europe was geared up to make diesel cars. Petrol was pretty much the preserve of little cars. The EU is now hammering diesel engines and the UK govt is screwing them in terms of tax for business leases. Mfrs had to get their current cars through changes in emmission testing. They have largely done that now. Phase 2 is to develop hybrid engines. It has been a perfect storm for the industry and throwing Brexit into the mix has not helped. 

Brexit is clearly a major headache but there is more going on in the auto industry than just Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			From a follow up article, car industry investment in 2015 was 2.5bil.
last year just 600m.
Any major changes in that time ?
		
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Would you expect 2.5 billion investment in the car industry every year?


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## robinthehood (Feb 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Would you expect 2.5 billion investment in the car industry every year?
		
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It's the lowest on record .


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm somewhat confused by Varadkar's increasingly dictatorial stance and disappointed that he seems to be inferring violence is almost inevitable. Given  that the Republic's economy is pretty entwined with the UK's I had thought he'd want to be looking forward and encourage a free trade style of relationship and the UK and EU to demonstrate pragmatism in the way some Eastern members have with more uncertain/unstable borders.
		
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I get the feeling he is not being very clever and is being manipulated by the EU Brexit team.  He has the gun leveled at his own foot and is ignoring suggestions telling him to put it down.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's the lowest on record .
		
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The car industry worldwide is experiencing a sales downturn, the EU has enforced new emission testing, there is the current concern over the way governments may penalise diesel engines  and there is no doubt that project fear has affected purchasing decisions.  Not really surprising investment has seen a fall off.


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## Mudball (Feb 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I get the feeling he is not being very clever and is being manipulated by the EU Brexit team.  He has the gun leveled at his own foot and is ignoring suggestions telling him to put it down.
		
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I dont comment on Irish issue as i cant say i know the history and culture involved. However, i have plenty of mates who were deployed there and none of them ever want to go back on active duty.
Can someone help me with why Varadkar is not being mindful of his own country. 
1) He is part of the EU and is deeply entrenched in its success. he even uses the Euro. He is part of a club and has to follow its rules
2) His countrymen and NI worked hard to avoid a hard border and any physical infrastructure.  However as a trading outpost of the EU, he needs a mechanism to ensure things are checked before they enter the EU (not just ROI).  He probably has a legal obligation to do so.   Would you be happy if cheap paracetamol or baby food from Iran ended up in Boots via Turkey-Bulgaria on a truck?  
3) Some of the current land borders like Norway-Sweden, Swiz-France are easier as Norway and Swiz have bilateral relationships and allow freedom of movement.  In our case we want to eat our cake and not allow freedom of movement for people but want freedom of goods.  
4) Finally, ROI was not part of the referendum and last time i checked NI voted to remain. 

So why are we making this a Varadkar problem rather than solve the mess we created in the first place.


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## Mudball (Feb 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The car industry worldwide is experiencing a sales downturn, *the EU has enforced new emission testing*, there is the current concern over the way governments may penalise diesel engines  and there is no doubt that project fear has affected purchasing decisions.  Not really surprising investment has seen a fall off.
		
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There is a very simple solution that we can do and win immediately.  On 1st April after we overthrow the yoke of subsistence, Westminister should announce an immediate reduction in the level of testing for new Diesel.  We should roll back to Euro 2 levels and call it something like Brit 5.  This should be introduced along with subsidy on new made-in-Britian Diesel car along with a scrappage allowance for anything built in Europe.  In one sweep, we will give the whole British car industry an immediate shot in the arm. JLR will be back and running... Nissan will be back in Sunderland before tea.  

Now here is a concrete proposal on how to make Britain great again..    Your move Jeremy


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			1) He is part of the EU and is deeply entrenched in its success. he even uses the Euro. He is part of a club and has to follow its rules
2) His countrymen and NI worked hard to avoid a hard border and any physical infrastructure.  However as a trading outpost of the EU, he needs a mechanism to ensure things are checked before they enter the EU (not just ROI).  He probably has a legal obligation to do so.   Would you be happy if cheap paracetamol or baby food from Iran ended up in Boots via Turkey-Bulgaria on a truck?
3) Some of the current land borders like Norway-Sweden, Swiz-France are easier as Norway and Swiz have bilateral relationships and allow freedom of movement.  In our case we want to eat our cake and not allow freedom of movement for people but want freedom of goods.
4) Finally, ROI was not part of the referendum and last time i checked NI voted to remain.

So why are we making this a Varadkar problem rather than solve the mess we created in the first place.
		
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It is partly a Varadkar problem because by not budging he is ensuring a hard border, the very thing he states not to want. There doesn't need to be a lot of movement but there needs to be some. If he doesn't compromise somewhere we have a hard border, by demand of the EU. There are enough politicians in the UK willing to go to No Deal over issues that are not related to Ireland that either he and the EU compromises or he will need to set up border posts on his side of the line because the EU state there has to be some to collect the taxes.

To remove a hard border, you need an element of customs union or agreement. The EU will not give that without preventing the UK from having trade agreements outside of the EU. Maybe they will have to allow us to do deals but charge us a bit more for the privelege. We get punished by having to pay more, no border required. All parties happy. For this to happen the EU need to give a little.

NI voted to remain but as the DUP keep reminding anyone who will listen, they are part of the UK and the UK voted to leave. If they want to stay.............that is a whole other issue and one for the people of NI and Eire alone.

ROI didn't vote but the border is where it is, the organisation they are part of are insisting on a deal that would never be acceptable. No point in them stamping their feet over it. How do you make the best of the situation? To get to that point a little more movement is going to be required, not just more of the same.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 4, 2019)

Maybe the Government could offer Northern Ireland a referendum on reunification with the South, with question something like,
Tick one box:
1. Remain in Union with UK and agree to a hard border if necessary   
Or
2. Reunite with Southern Ireland and avoid necessity for hard border


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## Old Skier (Feb 4, 2019)

I wonder why the EU just doesn't say, " We aren't changing the backstop part of the agreement so U.K. will have to leave under no deal".

Or is it really obvious.


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## Mudball (Feb 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is partly a Varadkar problem because by not budging he is ensuring a hard border, the very thing he states not to want.* There doesn't need to be a lot of movement but there needs to be some*. If he doesn't compromise somewhere we have a hard border, by demand of the EU. There are enough politicians in the UK willing to go to No Deal over issues that are not related to Ireland that either he and the EU compromises or he will need to set up border posts on his side of the line because the EU state there has to be some to collect the taxes.

To remove a hard border, you need an element of customs union or agreement. The EU will not give that without preventing the UK from having trade agreements outside of the EU. Maybe they will have to allow us to do deals but charge us a bit more for the privelege. We get punished by having to pay more, no border required. All parties happy. For this to happen the EU need to give a little.

NI voted to remain but as the DUP keep reminding anyone who will listen, they are part of the UK and the UK voted to leave. If they want to stay.............that is a whole other issue and one for the people of NI and Eire alone.

ROI didn't vote but the border is where it is, the organisation they are part of are insisting on a deal that would never be acceptable. No point in them stamping their feet over it. How do you make the best of the situation? To get to that point a little more movement is going to be required, not just more of the same.
		
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Really!!..  If you go and get a pint from your 'local' which till yesterday was your local, but today happens to be in a different arrangement - it is still classified as Freedom of moment.  I can talk about foreign technolgy workers who could not legally work in ROI but had UK visas so used outsourcing bases in Belfast..

Countries like Norway and Swiss allow free movement in exchange of no hard border and some sort of customs union.  In the days of yore, people needed a Swiss visas to travel to CH even if they had a valid Schengen visa for Europe. However, this has now gone away as Swiss is covered under Schengen now.

BTW, What is the compromise that UK is offering in this deal?  Maybe i have missed a memo somewhere


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## Mudball (Feb 4, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Maybe the Government could offer Northern Ireland a referendum on reunification with the South, with question something like,
Tick one box:
1. Remain in Union with UK and agree to a hard border if necessary  
Or
2. Reunite with Southern Ireland and avoid necessity for hard border
		
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Love it..  But as one of the N Irish girls on the team once mentioned, we are more like to team up with the Scots and demand freedom than unite with the south!!  I would take that with a pinch of salt (and lime and Tequila)


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Really!!..  If you go and get a pint from your 'local' which till yesterday was your local, but today happens to be in a different arrangement - it is still classified as Freedom of moment.  I can talk about foreign technolgy workers who could not legally work in ROI but had UK visas so used outsourcing bases in Belfast..

Countries like Norway and Swiss allow free movement in exchange of no hard border and some sort of customs union.  In the days of yore, people needed a Swiss visas to travel to CH even if they had a valid Schengen visa for Europe. However, this has now gone away as Swiss is covered under Schengen now.

BTW, What is the compromise that UK is offering in this deal?  Maybe i have missed a memo somewhere
		
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People from the ROI have always had freedom of movement in the UK and will continue to have it.

The compromise the UK is offering is a deal rather than no-deal which will be catastrophic to Ireland. With a little bit of trust on both sides and a will to introduce a frictionless border which is not that difficult we could all get on with our lives.   

Make no doubt about it Brussels are the puppet masters in this and pulling the strings so that Varadkar jumps to their tune.


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## Foxholer (Feb 4, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Maybe the Government could offer Northern Ireland a referendum on reunification with the South, with question something like,
Tick one box:
1. Remain in Union with UK and agree to a hard border if necessary  
Or
2. Reunite with Southern Ireland and avoid necessity for hard border
		
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I'm pretty sure NI would opt for selection 1! Being part of UK being a higher priority than being part of EU.

But it's not just NI that needs to be consulted in Irish matters! The Republic of Ireland also has a distinct interest!

Personally, I'm a great admirer of the concept written into the Good Friday all being Irish, so would welcome unification. But I don't believe now is an appropriate time for it!


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## IanM (Feb 4, 2019)

Ah, the EU and it's Borders... it actually does what it likes! 

I made the point a day or two ago (which was misunderstood/but probably ignored as recipient didnt like it) about one country having an open border on one side and a closed border to another EU country on the other...  just to make a political point... about 200 miles apart.  And road traffic cross between Russia and EU states all day every day. 

Just label it "Brexit Derail Attempt 4534"  

Someone remind me of where most Irish exports go?


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## Mudball (Feb 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			People from the ROI have always had freedom of movement in the UK *and will continue to have it.*

The compromise the UK is offering is a deal rather than no-deal which will be catastrophic to Ireland. With a little bit of trust on both sides and a will to introduce a frictionless border which is not that difficult we could all get on with our lives. 

Make no doubt about it Brussels are the puppet masters in this and pulling the strings so that Varadkar jumps to their tune.
		
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How will ROI citizens have a continued FOM into NI or GB when we leave?  Are the not governed by the same restrictions on FOM that we are putting on all EU nationals?  Or are we going to tier EU nationals on the basis of their country of origin .. So you are welcome if your Burgandy coloured passport is ROI, French or German but if it is issued by Eastern Europe then you are not welcome?  If the EU signs up to that, then it is surely the end of EU.  And good luck with that standing up to scrutiny in the ECJ - but then we dont want anything to do with the ECJ either.


BTW, I have still no idea what compromise the UK is offering.. saying that our compromise is that we will do a deal instead of a no-deal is not a compromise.  Also saying it hurt Ireland less is not a compromise either. Back to the point.. If you want the EU to compromise, then offer a (proper) compromise... Lets not just blame others... its a negotiation, then negotiate .. dont just find excuses.   

There is a nice 5 bed house coming up for sale.  Absolutely perfect for us.. good location, school, land, garage, the works.  It is on the market for 2.5m.  I know the guy very well, he will do a deal for 2.2...   I have only 250K, i now hate my friend as he wont take the offer.  He is an absolute loser.


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## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2019)

If you want to know why Varadkar is playing hard ball have a look at both the balance of trade and the % of trade between Ireland and the UK. A No Deal or hard border risks putting Ireland back into recession.

As to his own popularity and that of Fine Gael, again its worth a look to see how he is perceived in his own country. 

Look beyond Brexit for some indicators on why Varadkar is being a awkward. Also, why are the UK letting him get away with it? The damage to Ireland's economy would be catastrophic... tell him to behave or else, which is basically what he's telling the UK with all his new found mates in Brussels behind him.


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## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			How will ROI citizens have a continued FOM into NI or GB when we leave?  Are the not governed by the same restrictions on FOM that we are putting on all EU nationals?  Or are we going to tier EU nationals on the basis of their country of origin .. So you are welcome if your Burgandy coloured passport is ROI, French or German but if it is issued by Eastern Europe then you are not welcome?  If the EU signs up to that, then it is surely the end of EU.  And good luck with that standing up to scrutiny in the ECJ - but then we dont want anything to do with the ECJ either.
		
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Ireland and the UK have had a common travel agreement since long before the EU was even a twinkle in someone's eye. That agreement has never been superseded by an EU treaty and has been said by both the UK and Ireland that it will be honoured post-Brexit.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 4, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Are you suggesting the EU did a deal with Japan to spite the UK?
		
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Wouldnâ€™t be surprised if Nissan said to the Japanese government they were worried, the EU saw an opportunity and did a deal.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 4, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Letâ€™s phrase it this way, remaining is not a sure fire resolution to car sales.
If, as you say, itâ€™s a world problem, it canâ€™t be blamed on Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Not now that the EU has an agreement with Japan. 
I donâ€™t mind either way.


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## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Wouldnâ€™t be surprised if Nissan said to the Japanese government they were worried, the EU saw an opportunity and did a deal.
		
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The deal was already being negotiated prior to the Brexit vote but was pushed to the front of the queue after Brexit vote. To be fair, the Japanese PM/President, whatever he is, also offered the UK membership of the pan-asiatic trading bloc.

It doesn't give the Japan access into the EU via the UK, which they've sorted via the trade deal, but it does give the UK access to the fastest growing trading bloc in the world since BRIC(Brazil/Russia/India/China) stuttered.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			How will ROI citizens have a continued FOM into NI or GB when we leave?  Are the not governed by the same restrictions on FOM that we are putting on all EU nationals?  Or are we going to tier EU nationals on the basis of their country of origin .. So you are welcome if your Burgandy coloured passport is ROI, French or German but if it is issued by Eastern Europe then you are not welcome?  If the EU signs up to that, then it is surely the end of EU.  And good luck with that standing up to scrutiny in the ECJ - but then we dont want anything to do with the ECJ either.


BTW, I have still no idea what compromise the UK is offering.. saying that our compromise is that we will do a deal instead of a no-deal is not a compromise.  Also saying it hurt Ireland less is not a compromise either. Back to the point.. If you want the EU to compromise, then offer a (proper) compromise... Lets not just blame others... its a negotiation, then negotiate .. dont just find excuses.  

There is a nice 5 bed house coming up for sale.  Absolutely perfect for us.. good location, school, land, garage, the works.  It is on the market for 2.5m.  I know the guy very well, he will do a deal for 2.2...   I have only 250K, i now hate my friend as he wont take the offer.  He is an absolute loser.
		
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Read up on The Common Travel Area which has given Irish Republic Citizens the right to reside in the UK since the formation of the ROI.  The same rights are a available to residents of the UK, Channel  Islands and Isle of Man.  

Below a clip from the Gov website.

Irish citizens automatically have a right to reside in the UK as part of the common travel area. If you were habitually resident in Ireland or any of the other places in the common travel area before you came to the UK, you will automatically satisfy the conditions of the HRT.
However, if you come to the UK from a country outside the common travel area, you will have to prove you're habitually resident here to meet those conditions. As with UK citizens returning from abroad, from 1 January 2014 you cannot satisfy the HRT in order to claim income-based jobseeker's allowance until you have been living in the UK for at least three months.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2019)

Anyone know where Nissan's Â£ 80,000,000.00, bribe is going to be spent now?


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Really!!..  If you go and get a pint from your 'local' which till yesterday was your local, but today happens to be in a different arrangement - it is still classified as Freedom of moment.  I can talk about foreign technolgy workers who could not legally work in ROI but had UK visas so used outsourcing bases in Belfast..

Countries like Norway and Swiss allow free movement in exchange of no hard border and some sort of customs union.  In the days of yore, people needed a Swiss visas to travel to CH even if they had a valid Schengen visa for Europe. However, this has now gone away as Swiss is covered under Schengen now.

BTW, What is the compromise that UK is offering in this deal?  Maybe i have missed a memo somewhere
		
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Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean movement as in freedom of movement,  I meant movement as in compromise, move in their stance.

How has the UK compromised? To be honest this has gone on for so long that I've lost track of details but I'm pretty sure we've been well squeezed along the way. We will also be paying a healthy chunk. If I was on the EU team I'd be looking for an even bigger cheque as part of the way out. Give a little and get a wedge in return. Good way out for both parties.


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## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean movement as in freedom of movement,  I meant movement as in compromise, move in their stance.

How has the UK compromised? To be honest this has gone on for so long that I've lost track of details but I'm pretty sure we've been well squeezed along the way. We will also be paying a healthy chunk. If I was on the EU team I'd be looking for an even bigger cheque as part of the way out. Give a little and get a wedge in return. Good way out for both parties.
		
Click to expand...

It was mooted at the weekend that May will be offering more money.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It was mooted at the weekend that May will be offering more money.
		
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It always helps to grease the wheels and it gives the EU it's own victory.  Each party needs a win out of this, or not to lose too much face.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone know where Nissan's Â£ 80,000,000.00, bribe is going to be spent now?
		
Click to expand...

Are Nissan going somewhere else?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It always helps to grease the wheels and it gives the EU it's own victory.  Each party needs a win out of this, *or not to lose too much face*.
		
Click to expand...

Junker and Tusk have a spare one.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone know where Nissan's Â£ 80,000,000.00, bribe is going to be spent now?
		
Click to expand...

Dyson will have it ... incidentally spell checker kept correcting to dysentery ðŸ¤£


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## harpo_72 (Feb 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are Nissan going somewhere else?
		
Click to expand...

Doors started to close


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Potentially the obvious one but the whole diesel engine issue is massive as has been the drive for mfrs to meet new testing targets. Most of Europe was geared up to make diesel cars. Petrol was pretty much the preserve of little cars. The EU is now hammering diesel engines and the UK govt is screwing them in terms of tax for business leases. Mfrs had to get their current cars through changes in emmission testing. They have largely done that now. Phase 2 is to develop hybrid engines. It has been a perfect storm for the industry and throwing Brexit into the mix has not helped.

Brexit is clearly a major headache *but there is more going on in the auto industry than just Brexit.*

Click to expand...

How about plain old austerity?  My wages in real term have been regressing for about a decade, nowhere near keeping up with the rate of inflation.  A like for like replacement of my existing car will cost me in the region of 30 grand.  The current one starts, stops and does what I need, so I've decided not to until it stops starting, stopping and doing what I need.  Looking round the golf club car park I should get another 5 years out of it at the very least.


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## Dando (Feb 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Doors started to close
		
Click to expand...

To keep the warmth in


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## Mudball (Feb 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Read up on The Common Travel Area which has given Irish Republic Citizens the right to reside in the UK since the formation of the ROI.  The same rights are a available to residents of the UK, Channel  Islands and Isle of Man. 

Below a clip from the Gov website.

Irish citizens automatically have a right to reside in the UK as part of the common travel area. If you were habitually resident in Ireland or any of the other places in the common travel area before you came to the UK, you will automatically satisfy the conditions of the HRT.
However, if you come to the UK from a country outside the common travel area, you will have to prove you're habitually resident here to meet those conditions. As with UK citizens returning from abroad, from 1 January 2014 you cannot satisfy the HRT in order to claim income-based jobseeker's allowance until you have been living in the UK for at least three months.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you.. i learnt something new.. It may be unusual on some of these forums, but I think i started my Irish posts saying that I am no expert in Irish matters.  Glad you pointed me to some facts rather than Faff. Have a drink on me.


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## Mudball (Feb 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean movement as in freedom of movement,  I meant movement as in compromise, move in their stance.

How has the UK compromised? To be honest this has gone on for so long that I've lost track of details but I'm pretty sure we've been well squeezed along the way. *We will also be paying a healthy chunk.* If I was on the EU team I'd be looking for an even bigger cheque as part of the way out. Give a little and get a wedge in return. Good way out for both parties.
		
Click to expand...

Isnt that healthy chunk our existing commitments.  I like the idea of compromsie being ..  Give us a good deal and we will honour our existing commitments and wont put up borders.  Dont give a deal and we will take our money and spend it on the NHS


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Isnt that healthy chunk our existing commitments.  I like the idea of compromsie being ..  Give us a good deal and we will honour our existing commitments and wont put up borders.  Dont give a deal and we will take our money and spend it on the NHS
		
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Yes it is. There are probably ways to dodge some of it but we agreed it early doors, correctly imo, as a sign of goodwill. I didn't state it was part of a UK compromise although some would argue it was granted too quickly. 

I disagree with your statement though,  give us a good deal etc, the UK is not wanting the borders. The borders are being asked for by the EU in order to keep NI, and so the rest of the UK,  out of the single market. All requirements for borders are coming from the EU as far as I can tell.


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## Dando (Feb 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Isnt that healthy chunk our existing commitments.  I like the idea of compromsie being ..  Give us a good deal and we will honour our existing commitments and wont put up borders.  Dont give a deal and we will take our money and spend it on the NHS
		
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Remember that some on here believe we promised to give our weekly EU contributions to the NHS ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Sweep (Feb 5, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Maybe the Government could offer Northern Ireland a referendum on reunification with the South, with question something like,
Tick one box:
1. Remain in Union with UK and agree to a hard border if necessary  
Or
2. Reunite with Southern Ireland and avoid necessity for hard border
		
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It is written in the Good Friday Agreement that when a majority in the North want reunification with Eire then that is what will happen. Until then NI remains part of the UK.
Reports tonight that David Trimble who negotiated the agreement is saying the backstop contravenes the GFA and is prepared to go to court to stop it.


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## Sweep (Feb 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Ireland and the UK have had a common travel agreement since long before the EU was even a twinkle in someone's eye. That agreement has never been superseded by an EU treaty and has been said by both the UK and Ireland that it will be honoured post-Brexit.
		
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Even Nigel Farage argues for a special case for Irish citizens.


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## Sweep (Feb 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Wouldnâ€™t be surprised if Nissan said to the Japanese government they were worried, the EU saw an opportunity and did a deal.
		
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I would be very surprised. You will be telling us next that all the trade deals the UK can do post Brexit will take decades to arrange. Or is that just more project fear? Or are deals just done quickly in Japan?
Actually itâ€™s neither. The Japan / EU deal has been talked about for years. And as we all know, nations and unions donâ€™t do trade deals to satisfy one company. And as the cars arenâ€™t being built in the EU this case in isolation  doesnâ€™t offer much incentive for the EU to do a deal.


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## Sweep (Feb 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Not now that the EU has an agreement with Japan.
I donâ€™t mind either way.
		
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Contrary to popular belief, not all cars are Japanese.


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## PieMan (Feb 5, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I would be very surprised. You will be telling us next that all the trade deals the UK can do post Brexit will take decades to arrange. Or is that just more project fear? Or are deals just done quickly in Japan?
Actually itâ€™s neither. The Japan / EU deal has been talked about for years. And as we all know, nations and unions donâ€™t do trade deals to satisfy one company. And as the cars arenâ€™t being built in the EU this case in isolation  doesnâ€™t offer much incentive for the EU to do a deal.
		
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I've posted on this before. Trade deals can be concluded very quickly, particularly if it's between just two nations; and if the collective will between the two is also there (the US/Australia agreement took just months to conclude rather than years).

It also depends on the nature of the agreement (i.e. whether it's purely trade in goods, or if it goes wider such as services as well).

The main issue with EU trade agreements is the process it takes to get formal agreement - approval by the Council, the European Parliament and all 28 Member States (in addition to getting the entire text of any agreement translated into each MS official language). Look at the recent CETA agreement - took the best part of 10 years since official launch of negotiations to agreement and being implemented (and I think it's only been partially implemented at the moment, but I could be wrong).

The UK/EU FTA should be the easiest and simplest to agree and implement seeing as we've been in a free trade agreement for 40 years!

As to agreements with the RoW once we leave the EU, there are a whole raft that have been more or less agreed and are awaiting formal sign off once we know what's happening with the EU situation.


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## bluewolf (Feb 5, 2019)

PieMan said:



			The UK/EU FTA should be the easiest and simplest to agree
		
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Careful, you're straying into Liam Fox territory there mate..


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## Foxholer (Feb 5, 2019)

PieMan said:



			I've posted on this before. Trade deals can be concluded very quickly, particularly if it's between just two nations; and if the collective will between the two is also there (the US/Australia agreement took just months to conclude rather than years).

It also depends on the nature of the agreement (i.e. whether it's purely trade in goods, or if it goes wider such as services as well).

*The main issue with EU trade agreements is the process it takes to get formal agreement - approval by the Council, the European Parliament and all 28 Member States (in addition to getting the entire text of any agreement translated into each MS official language). Look at the recent CETA agreement - took the best part of 10 years since official launch of negotiations to agreement and being implemented (and I think it's only been partially implemented at the moment, but I could be wrong).*

The UK/EU FTA should be the easiest and simplest to agree and implement seeing as we've been in a free trade agreement for 40 years!

As to agreements with the RoW once we leave the EU, there are a whole raft that have been more or less agreed and are awaiting formal sign off once we know what's happening with the EU situation.
		
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Extracted from the EU's announcement about the FTA....

'In *2013* EU governments instructed the European Commission to start negotiations with Japan.
*On 8 December 2017, the negotiations were finalised*. The European Parliament gave its consent in December 2018, clearing the way for the trade agreement's conclusion and entry into force.
As of 1 February, a large part of another agreement â€“ the Strategic Partnership Agreement between the European Union and Japan â€“ also applies on a provisional basis..'

Seems it's the negotiation part that takes the time - at least, in this case!


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## Mudball (Feb 5, 2019)

While we worry about running out of Avacados or only having 6 different types of tomatoâ€™s to choose from on our empty supermarket shelf in case of no deal Brexit. 

Have a look at this interesting report on impact on developing country because of Brexhit .  Of course thing to remember it is a simulation, and every simulation (I have done few) will look at extremes.  I am sure Believers will say that it has been sponsored by Germans and part of Project Fear. 
But go ahead and have a read 
https://apple.news/AOC3hRak-QMOGNS1MPMWVqg


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## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2019)

Mudball said:



			While we worry about running out of Avacados or only having 6 different types of tomatoâ€™s to choose from on our empty supermarket shelf in case of no deal Brexit.

Have a look at this interesting report on impact on developing country because of Brexhit .  Of course thing to remember it is a simulation, and every simulation (I have done few) will look at extremes.  I am sure Believers will say that it has been sponsored by Germans and part of Project Fear.
But go ahead and have a read
https://apple.news/AOC3hRak-QMOGNS1MPMWVqg

Click to expand...

I find that article weighted towards the worst case scenario.   The UK  would be free to set it's own tariffs and quotas so why would we penalise developing countries.  The EU have been responsible for many problems in these countries due to their protectionist market, the UK as a member state have needed to apply whatever tariffs the EU set.


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## Hobbit (Feb 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I find that article weighted towards the worst case scenario.   The UK  would be free to set it's own tariffs and quotas so why would we penalise developing countries.  The EU have been responsible for many problems in these countries due to their protectionist market, the UK as a member state have needed to apply whatever tariffs the EU set.
		
Click to expand...

I've not looked at the 585 pages for weeks but in terms of tariffs for agricultural products the agreement stated that an independent body(hahahaha) would be set up to monitor agricultural policies and tariffs in the UK at the UK's expense. All policies and tariffs had to be agreed with the EU, and no tariff could be lower than that offered to the EU. Any policies, tariffs or practices applied without agreement with the EU could lead to fines. It read like both hands would be tied behind the UK's back.

Everyone appears to be fixating on the backstop but few seem to be looking at the deal as a whole. Some very fair, good stuff in it but there's some appalling clauses.

As Gina Miller said on QT last week, the UK is leaving the EU but its with an appalling deal.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I've not looked at the 585 pages for weeks but in terms of tariffs for agricultural products the agreement stated that an independent body(hahahaha) would be set up to monitor agricultural policies and tariffs in the UK at the UK's expense. All policies and tariffs had to be agreed with the EU, and no tariff could be lower than that offered to the EU. Any policies, tariffs or practices applied without agreement with the EU could lead to fines. It read like both hands would be tied behind the UK's back.

Everyone appears to be fixating on the backstop but few seem to be looking at the deal as a whole. Some very fair, good stuff in it but there's some appalling clauses.

As Gina Miller said on QT last week, the UK is leaving the EU but its with an appalling deal.
		
Click to expand...

Do those restrictions only apply in a transition period or permanently?


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## Hobbit (Feb 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do those restrictions only apply in a transition period or permanently?
		
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I couldn't find anything that said they only applied during the transitionary period but I must have missed something. Surely no one would sign a deal on those terms.


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## Foxholer (Feb 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I couldn't find anything that said they only applied during the transitionary period but I must have missed something. Surely no one would sign a deal on those terms.
		
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Nor could I, though it's possibly (hopefully!/surely!) in there somewhere.

It's one of the primary reasons I believe (unless proven otherwise) that it's an awful deal - and 'No Deal' would be much better for UK (eventually). The only argument I can imagine the 'UK tariffs never less than EU ones' is to cover possible (fraudulent?) re-export trade - where EU tariffs are bypassed by importing at low/zero rate via UK! But that could surely be covered by specific other clauses.

Btw. EU seems very likely to impose tariffs on Rice coming from a couple of Asian countries as the 40-fold increase (from 9k tonnes to 360k tonnes) has been detrimental to Italy - an example of the (maybe not unreasonable in this case) protectionism of the bloc.


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## Sweep (Feb 5, 2019)

Interesting.
Corbyn speaking at an anti Lisbon Treaty meeting in 2009 in Ireland.
As an aside, I think itâ€™s the first time I have ever seen him smile.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1092545705883897857


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## spongebob59 (Feb 5, 2019)

Maybe DA was in the audience and did a 'Sharon Stone'


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## Foxholer (Feb 5, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Maybe DA was in the audience and did a 'Sharon Stone' 

Click to expand...


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## Fade and Die (Feb 5, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Interesting.
Corbyn speaking at an anti Lisbon Treaty meeting in 2009 in Ireland.
As an aside, I think itâ€™s the first time I have ever seen him smile.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1092545705883897857

Click to expand...

I cannot understand why anyone would think the EU and Left are bedfellows, The EU has always been a creature of big business and the banks. It is not, and never has been, a â€˜leftistâ€™ or â€˜liberalâ€™ organisation. I recall the 1983 general election when the Labour party went to the country with the express policy of withdrawal from the European Economic Community whilst the Conservative government of Margaret Thatcher supported continued membership! 
A contributor to another website I read shared a link to a BBC â€˜On This Dayâ€™ page entitled 1975: Labour votes to leave the EEC. The Labour government of Harold Wilson was so hopelessly split over membership of the EEC that the prime minister was forced to allow cabinet ministers to campaign on both sides of the issue in the 1975 referendum â€“ just as David Cameron was forced to do in 2016. The Labour left was bitterly opposed to the EEC. The Industry Secretary Tony Benn was delighted when the unions and a special conference on EEC membership voted to leave, whilst his fellow left-winger, Employment Secretary Michael Foot, blamed high unemployment on what he said was the damage to Britainâ€™s domestic market from European imports.


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## Foxholer (Feb 5, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I cannot understand why anyone would think the EU and Left are bedfellows, The EU has always been a creature of big business and the banks. It is not, and never has been, a â€˜leftistâ€™ or â€˜liberalâ€™ organisation. I recall the 1983 general election when the Labour party went to the country with the express policy of withdrawal from the European Economic Community whilst the Conservative government of Margaret Thatcher supported continued membership!
A contributor to another website I read shared a link to a BBC â€˜On This Dayâ€™ page entitled 1975: Labour votes to leave the EEC. The Labour government of Harold Wilson was so hopelessly split over membership of the EEC that the prime minister was forced to allow cabinet ministers to campaign on both sides of the issue in the 1975 referendum â€“ just as David Cameron was forced to do in 2016. The Labour left was bitterly opposed to the EEC. The Industry Secretary Tony Benn was delighted when the unions and a special conference on EEC membership voted to leave, whilst his fellow left-winger, Employment Secretary Michael Foot, blamed high unemployment on what he said was the damage to Britainâ€™s domestic market from European imports.
		
Click to expand...

To me, this simply demonstrates how the EU (or the EEC as it was then) is/was NOT an issue divided on 'party' lines! It's an issue that SPANS both main parties - which is why May has difficulty actually getting anything through Parliament!

And why I believe this will go to the brink - or beyond - before either the EU blinks, perhaps extending the negotiation period, or UK simply leaves with 'No Deal'!

To me, the problem of the Irish border/backstop is a complication, but solve-able and not something that should stop the Leave process.


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## Mudball (Feb 5, 2019)

Another funny one..


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## Fade and Die (Feb 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			To me, this simply demonstrates how the EU (or the EEC as it was then) is/was NOT an issue divided on 'party' lines! It's an issue that SPANS both main parties - which is why May has difficulty actually getting anything through Parliament!

And why I believe this will go to the brink - or beyond - before either the EU blinks, perhaps extending the negotiation period, or UK simply leaves with 'No Deal'!

To me, the problem of the Irish border/backstop is a complication, but solve-able and not something that should stop the Leave process.
		
Click to expand...


I agree 100%, anyone that thinks Brexit has anything to do with the colour of the political rosette you wear really has no grasp on the situation.


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## User62651 (Feb 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I agree 100%, anyone that thinks Brexit has anything to do with the colour of the political rosette you wear really has no grasp on the situation.
		
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There are more than 2 colours in UK politics or does Scotland not count?


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## USER1999 (Feb 6, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			There are more than 2 colours in UK politics or does Scotland not count?
		
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Or Wales, or the lib dems, or the DUP, monster raving lunies, etc. 

Why always Scotland?


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## Foxholer (Feb 6, 2019)

maxfli65 said:





Fade and Die said:



			I agree 100%, anyone that thinks Brexit has anything to do with the colour of the political rosette you wear really has no grasp on the situation.
		
Click to expand...

There are more than 2 colours in UK politics or does Scotland not count?
		
Click to expand...

Did F&D actually mention a specific number?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			There are more than 2 colours in UK politics or does Scotland not count?
		
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There's also the colour of that chip on your shoulder.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 6, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			There are more than 2 colours in UK politics or does Scotland not count?
		
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Who said 2 colours?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Who said 2 colours?
		
Click to expand...

Foxholer said 'two main parties'............to which you replied.


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## Foxholer (Feb 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Foxholer said 'two main parties'............to which you replied.
		
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Correctly dropping the 'two', and the 'main', from his point - which was more general than mine!


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

An answer to why the Irish government are playing such hardball may have just come from Kate Hoey on Sky News. In response to a question from Adam Boulton suggesting some people saw Brexit as an opportunity to unravel the power sharing of the Belfast Agreement, she said:
â€œI would say the truth is that the Irish govt see the UK leaving the EU as something that they can try and help create perhaps more of a move to one Ireland. Thatâ€™s why they want the backstop. And you know, NI is part of the UK. It was very clear that people in NI had the right to stay British or Irish until they voted otherwise and until that happens the British govt (and) Theresa Mayâ€™s job is to stick up for the people of NI.â€


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 6, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1092766157545758721
Joanna right on the ball as usual.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1092766157545758721
Joanna right on the ball as usual.
		
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Really scraping the bottom of the fish barrel today Doom


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## User62651 (Feb 6, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Or Wales, or the lib dems, or the DUP, monster raving lunies, etc.

Why always Scotland?
		
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Not always Scotland, the response was about Brexit apparently not being linked to colour of rosette, it is strongly linked to yellow or gold for people voting SNP or Lib Dem for example.


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## IanM (Feb 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1092766157545758721
Joanna right on the ball as usual.
		
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Gotta love the SNP....they've lost the two Refererdums this century, now they are trying for 3-0


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2019)

Suprised no one had mentioned Mr Tusks comments â€œ of a special place in hell for those that pushed for Brexit without having any plansâ€.
Gonna jeep my comments on him
To myself but one word springs to mind.


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Suprised no one had mentioned Mr Tusks comments â€œ of a special place in hell for those that pushed for Brexit without having any plansâ€.
Gonna jeep my comments on him
To myself but one word springs to mind.
		
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Confused by this TBH.. I have nothing but contempt for those in positions of power who agitated about leaving the EU for many years but who had made absolutely no plans for how it was going to work.. In all honesty, it's as though they thought it was never going to happen, but that they were part of a special Club that were given a louder voice than they otherwise would have had.. 

They're one of the myriad of reasons that we're in the mess we're currently in...


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## drdel (Feb 6, 2019)

So Donald Tusk expressed his hopes the Brexit supporters find a place in "hell" 

How wonderfully constructive. Is he so intent on hitting the headlines that  he is willing to threaten important agreements? 

I do wonder if these people ever engage their brains.


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## User62651 (Feb 6, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Suprised no one had mentioned Mr Tusks comments â€œ of a special place in hell for those that pushed for Brexit without having any plansâ€.
Gonna jeep my comments on him
To myself but one word springs to mind.
		
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Fair comment, pretty stupid choice of words from a man in his position, doesn't help. 
Expect more stupid comments all round as this process ratchets up.


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			So Donald Tusk expressed his hopes the Brexit supporters find a place in "hell"

How wonderfully constructive. Is he so intent on hitting the headlines that  he is willing to threaten important agreements?

I do wonder if these people ever engage their brains.
		
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That's not what he said..
He wondered "what the special place in hell looks like for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely"

So, not Brexit supporters.. just those in power who pushed for it without any idea of how to actually do it..

It doesn't help if you don't put the comment in its proper context, does it?


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## Fade and Die (Feb 6, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Not always Scotland, the response was about Brexit apparently not being linked to colour of rosette, it is strongly linked to yellow or gold for people voting SNP or Lib Dem for example.
		
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Itâ€™s a cross party subject.

More Scottish people voted to leave the EU than voted for the SNP in the 2017 GE.  *1018222 V 977569*... (thatâ€™s right btw, more than a Million Scots voted to leave.) 

Last election more Scottish people voted for Conservatives & Labour who both had agreed to leave the EU than voted for SNP & Lib Demâ€™s who said they would remain. *1474956 V 1156636*

Stop feeling so hard done by, and stop looking for anti-Scottish sentiment when there isnâ€™t any.
 Itâ€™s an unpleasant trait of the Scots Nats.


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## jp5 (Feb 6, 2019)

So the Brexit boys who have been insulting European politicians for years suddenly don't like it when they get a bit back...


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## IanM (Feb 6, 2019)

Tusk.... a foreigner commited to removing Westminster from the Political Map.  (Wasnt that formerly "treason?") 

That's his business... the fact that some people are ok with is beyond me.   Oh , sorry, we dont want to run out of lettuce or cheap barristas, do we?


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## oxymoron (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That's not what he said..
He wondered *"what the special place in hell looks like for those who promoted Brexit *without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely"

So, not Brexit supporters.. just those in power who pushed for it without any idea of how to actually do it..

It doesn't help if you don't put the comment in its proper context, does it?
		
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But it seems to me he has already decided they are going to hell , no mention of " is there" or " may be" just "what *the* special place in hell"  not very constructive is it ?


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			But it seems to me he has already decided they are going to hell , no mention of " is there" or " may be" just "what *the* special place in hell"  not very constructive is it ?
		
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I think we're clutching at straws when we're analysing the comment in that sort of detail.. FWIW, I agree with him on this comment. I think that these people who have been hugely vocal about leaving the EU, then have just stood on the sidelines firing petty comments at May and the EU should be ashamed of themselves.. I don't like May, but at least she appears to be attempting to do something. I have zero respect for the likes of Johnson et al, who have offered nothing but bland diatribes about how we'll survive because of the jolly old WW2 spirit..

And if you want to talk about constructive then where were you when MP's were making ugly, petty comments about the Germans, about specific EU politicians, about leading voices in the Remain camp? Or is it just those pesky foreigners who aren't allowed to comment?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Itâ€™s a cross party subject.

More Scottish people voted to leave the EU than voted for the SNP in the 2017 GE.  *1018222 V 977569*... (thatâ€™s right btw, more than a Million Scots voted to leave.)

Last election more Scottish people voted for Conservatives & Labour who both had agreed to leave the EU than voted for SNP & Lib Demâ€™s who said they would remain. *1474956 V 1156636*

Stop feeling so hard done by, and stop looking for anti-Scottish sentiment when there isnâ€™t any.
Itâ€™s an unpleasant trait of the Scots Nats.
		
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Not quite as simple as that I am afraid.
Polls have shown that there is a great big mucking fuddle when you start to break down yes/no, remain/leave conundrums.

Support for Independence from Labour and Tory individuals is not uncommon.
Not all independence supporters were in favour of staying the EU


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## spongebob59 (Feb 6, 2019)

We have Farage !


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## oxymoron (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I think we're clutching at straws when we're analysing the comment in that sort of detail.. FWIW, I agree with him on this comment. I think that these people who have been hugely vocal about leaving the EU, then have just stood on the sidelines firing petty comments at May and the EU should be ashamed of themselves.. I don't like May, but at least she appears to be attempting to do something. I have zero respect for the likes of Johnson et al, who have offered nothing but bland diatribes about how we'll survive because of the jolly old WW2 spirit..

And if you want to talk about constructive then where were you when MP's were making ugly, petty comments about the Germans, about specific EU politicians, about leading voices in the Remain camp? Or is it just those pesky foreigners who aren't allowed to comment?
		
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I dont have to be constructive i am only one voice not a politician or figurehead, whose opinion will not change the current climate , i just find it comical that i seem to have struck a nerve with you , i did not specifically aim at you so why point at me for my comment ?
I am not part of the hierarchy of an organisation that has been challenged and whose comments make international press ,so my view is just that , mine . You can like it or lump it for me, i just wish we could get this over and done with


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			Gotta love the SNP....they've lost the two Refererdums this century, now they are trying for 3-0
		
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Don't worry we don't give up easily.

Out of interest, did you actually listen to what Joanna said, if so, do you disagree with any of it.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not quite as simple as that I am afraid.
Polls have shown that there is a great big mucking fuddle when you start to break down yes/no, remain/leave conundrums.

Support for Independence from Labour and Tory individuals is not uncommon.
Not all independence supporters were in favour of staying the EU
		
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Which was really the point i was trying to make... Brexit is a cross party problem.


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			I dont have to be constructive i am only one voice not a politician or figurehead, whose opinion will not change the current climate , i just find it comical that i seem to have struck a nerve with you , i did not specifically aim at you so why point at me for my comment ?
I am not part of the hierarchy of an organisation that has been challenged and whose comments make international press ,so my view is just that , mine . You can like it or lump it for me, i just wish we could get this over and done with
		
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LOL, you quoted my post! So it was aimed specifically at me. And you haven't touched a nerve at all, but if you aim a comment at me, I'm likely to respond.

whether you agree with his comment or not, he has every right to make it. To decide that he is somehow "not very constructive" whilst ignoring every other comment by Uk based commentators appears to be a touch one sided. If we were to compile all the comments made by protagonists on both sides and critique them all then that would be better. But that isn't happening.. Horrible statements by people like Mark Francois and Daniel Kawazinski appear to go unnoticed by most on here..

Oh, and I'm desperate for it to be over as well. This is a dark time for Britain and I suspect that history will not be kind to us.. Any of us..

(sorry if this is a little disjointed. I'm currently attempting to work out a Shipping itinerary for a product currently in production, that is due to leave in March, pass through 2 European Ports before finally heading to the USA in April. My head is in bits!!!  )


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## Fade and Die (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			LOL, you quoted my post! So it was aimed specifically at me. And you haven't touched a nerve at all, but if you aim a comment at me, I'm likely to respond.

whether you agree with his comment or not, he has every right to make it. To decide that he is somehow "not very constructive" whilst ignoring every other comment by Uk based commentators appears to be a touch one sided. If we were to compile all the comments made by protagonists on both sides and critique them all then that would be better. But that isn't happening.. Horrible statements by people like Mark Francois and Daniel Kawazinski appear to go unnoticed by most on here..

Oh, and I'm desperate for it to be over as well. This is a dark time for Britain and I suspect that history will not be kind to us.. Any of us..

(sorry if this is a little disjointed.* I'm currently attempting to work out a Shipping itinerary for a product currently in production, that is due to leave in March, pass through 2 European Ports before finally heading to the USA in April. *My head is in bits!!!  )
		
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Don't use myHermes ffs!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I think we're clutching at straws when we're analysing the comment in that sort of detail.. FWIW, I agree with him on this comment. I think that these people who have been hugely vocal about leaving the EU, then have just stood on the sidelines firing petty comments at May and the EU should be ashamed of themselves.. I don't like May, but at least she appears to be attempting to do something. I have zero respect for the likes of Johnson et al, who have offered nothing but bland diatribes about how we'll survive because of the jolly old WW2 spirit..

And if you want to talk about constructive then where were you when MP's were making ugly, petty comments about the Germans, about specific EU politicians, about leading voices in the Remain camp? Or is it just those pesky foreigners who aren't allowed to comment?
		
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What on earth do you expect MPs not in government to do, they are not sat at the negotiating table and have little input to what is discussed. What plan should they have exactly. If they propose anything it's shot down in flames.  May has been the only one in a position to do anything. 

Tusk is being stupid by posting insults on twitter, he's supposed to be a leader on the world stage but is acting like Trump.  I guess anyone with the audacity to want to leave the almighty EU must be deserving a place in the firey pit with the devil for a partner.


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## User62651 (Feb 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Which was really the point i was trying to make... Brexit is a cross party problem.
		
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UKIP was Brexit in a nutshell, it was their dream. They had a 12.8% vote share in 2015 GE up from 3.1% in 2010 GE, massive growth which worried Tories more than Labour and was propelled by something - perhaps because that period coincided with hard Tory austerity policy so people were angry and wanted someone to blame, a situation exploited by UKIP helped by a charismatic leader in Farage blaming EU membership for UKs ills. Ills that ironically have only become worse since voting to leave.
Brexit's only a problem because Tories decided to make the problem by having a referendum on EU membership to stop that pattern of leaking votes to UKIP, Camerons gamble that went wrong. Labour also lost votes to UKIP in 2015 but they under Milliband hadn't proposed an EU referendum. In that regard Brexit is owned by Conservatives, they created it and they still have to sort it out.
Saying it is a cross party problem isn't quite right imo, is portrayed that way now by some Leavers as a means to further their agenda. Good example being that somehow voting Labour in 2017 GE was a vote for Brexit. Lib dems were still poison because of their coalition with Tories so those Labour voters could realistically only vote Labour again. Corbyn also mobilised the young vote too in 2017 and we know from polling the young are roughly 7 to 1 in favour of remain.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			UKIP was Brexit in a nutshell, it was their dream. They had a 12.8% vote share in 2015 GE up from 3.1% in 2010 GE, massive growth which worried Tories more than Labour and was propelled by something - perhaps because that period coincided with hard Tory austerity policy so people were angry and wanted someone to blame, a situation exploited by UKIP helped by a charismatic leader in Farage blaming EU membership for UKs ills. Ills that ironically have only become worse since voting to leave.
Brexit's only a problem because Tories decided to make the problem by having a referendum on EU membership to stop that pattern of leaking votes to UKIP, Camerons gamble that went wrong. Labour also lost votes to UKIP in 2015 but they under Milliband hadn't proposed an EU referendum. In that regard Brexit is owned by Conservatives, they created it and they still have to sort it out.
Saying it is a cross party problem isn't quite right imo, is portrayed that way now by some Leavers as a means to further their agenda. Good example being that somehow voting Labour in 2017 GE was a vote for Brexit. Lib dems were still poison because of their coalition with Tories so those Labour voters could realistically only vote Labour again. Corbyn also mobilised the young vote too in 2017 and we know from polling the young are roughly 7 to 1 in favour of remain.
		
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What exactly are these ills the UK had that have become worse since voting to leave?


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What on earth do you expect MPs not in government to do, they are not sat at the negotiating table and have little input to what is discussed. What plan should they have exactly. If they propose anything it's shot down in flames.  May has been the only one in a position to do anything.

Tusk is being stupid by posting insults on twitter, he's supposed to be a leader on the world stage but is acting like Trump.  I guess anyone with the audacity to want to leave the almighty EU must be deserving a place in the firey pit with the devil for a partner.
		
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And the MP's that were in Government? Or are currently still in Government? 
Also, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the comment was in the past tense. He has criticised those who have actively fought for Brexit but once they had it, slunk off into the background to lob insults and offer nothing constructive.. They've had 40 years to formulate and adapt a plan, and what do we get? Nothing. They've now conveniently forgotten all previous talk of a deal and spout meaningless platitudes about always wanting a "No Deal", despite never mentioning it before late 2018. 

And with respect to your 2nd paragraph, Tusk may be being naive in using Twitter, but he's hardly the only one is he? Also, once again, he didn't state that anyone wanting Brexit deserves a place in hell.. read the actual words.. He CLEARLY stated that those who agitated for Brexit, but had absolutely no plan for how to leave deserved a special place in hell.. I'm guessing that he wasn't actually trying to get them sent to the firey pit, but who knows, he could be a God Botherer... If you're going to rant at his comment, then best that you take it in context...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And the MP's that were in Government? Or are currently still in Government? 
Also, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the comment was in the past tense. He has criticised those who have actively fought for Brexit but once they had it, slunk off into the background to lob insults and offer nothing constructive.. They've had 40 years to formulate and adapt a plan, and what do we get? Nothing. They've now conveniently forgotten all previous talk of a deal and spout meaningless platitudes about always wanting a "No Deal", despite never mentioning it before late 2018. 

And with respect to your 2nd paragraph, Tusk may be being naive in using Twitter, but he's hardly the only one is he? Also, once again, he didn't state that anyone wanting Brexit deserves a place in hell.. read the actual words.. He CLEARLY stated that those who agitated for Brexit, but had absolutely no plan for how to leave deserved a special place in hell.. I'm guessing that he wasn't actually trying to get them sent to the firey pit, but who knows, he could be a God Botherer... If you're going to rant at his comment, then best that you take it in context...
		
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I don't do ranting       >


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## Fade and Die (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And the MP's that were in Government? Or are currently still in Government?
Also, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the comment was in the past tense. He has criticised those who have actively fought for Brexit but once they had it, slunk off into the background to lob insults and offer nothing constructive.. They've had 40 years to formulate and adapt a plan, and what do we get? Nothing. They've now conveniently forgotten all previous talk of a deal and spout meaningless platitudes about always wanting a "No Deal", despite never mentioning it before late 2018.

And with respect to your 2nd paragraph, Tusk may be being naive in using Twitter, but he's hardly the only one is he? Also, once again, he didn't state that anyone wanting Brexit deserves a place in hell.. read the actual words.. *He CLEARLY stated that those who agitated for Brexit, but had absolutely no plan for how to leave deserved a special place in hell*.. I'm guessing that he wasn't actually trying to get them sent to the firey pit, but who knows, he could be a God Botherer... If you're going to rant at his comment, then best that you take it in context...
		
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Even so bit strong ain't it? Hardly the words of a diplomat.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

The comments by Tusk are IMO utterly reprehensible and deliberately designed to be provocative. Using phrases referring to a special place in hell are very emotive and are not remotely linked to the truth. This separates his comments from genuine criticism and in turn that shows them up to be a insult and a deliberate one at that. Quite why he chose these particular words at this particular time is beyond me. To be honest, as they have been given the clear opportunity to distance themselves from Tuskâ€™s comments at the press conference, I am just as shocked that Veradkar and Juncker failed to do so.
In my view this is just another example of why we should get out and get out now. I simply donâ€™t want us to be involved with these amateurs and I never have. IMO Juncker, Tusk and cronies are the best recruitment force for the leave campaign.
You canâ€™t negotiate with idiots and these people are nothing if not idiots. How else can you explain such a ridiculous and purposeful comment like this? - and it was purposeful. Varadkar was caught on a mic telling Tusk the UK press would give him a hard time over it and Tusk just laughed.
As I say, you canâ€™t negotiate with idiots so letâ€™s just leave now. If no deal means not having to deal with these clowns then bring it on!


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

It does beggar belief that at the same press conferences where Veradkar is playing hardball with his big EU mates behind him, he is also going to great lengths to explain how the EU will assist Ireland in the event of a no deal. So Ireland becomes a beggar yet again at the EU table. And the Irish leader is happy with that.


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Even so bit strong ain't it? Hardly the words of a diplomat.
		
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And as I said. He's not the only one doing it. There are plenty on either side of the negotiations that deserve to be reprimanded. Yet I'm only seeing one side being vilified. It's just a bit childish, isn't it. Trying to make it all about the big bad bogeyman on the other side of the table.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 6, 2019)

The art of diplomacy certainly seems to be lacking at the moment.


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The art of diplomacy certainly seems to be lacking at the moment.
		
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From both sides. ðŸ‘


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And the MP's that were in Government? Or are currently still in Government?
Also, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the comment was in the past tense. He has criticised those who have actively fought for Brexit but once they had it, slunk off into the background to lob insults and offer nothing constructive.. They've had 40 years to formulate and adapt a plan, and what do we get? Nothing. They've now conveniently forgotten all previous talk of a deal and spout meaningless platitudes about always wanting a "No Deal", despite never mentioning it before late 2018.

And with respect to your 2nd paragraph, Tusk may be being naive in using Twitter, but he's hardly the only one is he? Also, once again, he didn't state that anyone wanting Brexit deserves a place in hell.. read the actual words.. He CLEARLY stated that those who agitated for Brexit, but had absolutely no plan for how to leave deserved a special place in hell.. I'm guessing that he wasn't actually trying to get them sent to the firey pit, but who knows, he could be a God Botherer... If you're going to rant at his comment, then best that you take it in context...
		
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And yet no mention of the EU who have frustrated negotiations for 2.5 years. Left it to the UK to make all suggestions and then knocked them back and now refuse to negotiate even though they know our govt is not in a position to sign the WA as it stands.
And brexiteers did not slunk off into the background. They were sidelined.
Maybe the problems started the day after the referendum when someone said â€œ now we will go to Brussels to negotiateâ€. Maybe we should have just left and let the EU do the running. Maybe thatâ€™s what we should do now. Maybe we will end up doing that anyway. At least it would have saved us 2.5 years of nonsense.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			From both sides. ðŸ‘
		
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I donâ€™t remember the UK govt throwing around insults.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And as I said. He's not the only one doing it. There are plenty on either side of the negotiations that deserve to be reprimanded. Yet I'm only seeing one side being vilified. It's just a bit childish, isn't it. Trying to make it all about the big bad bogeyman on the other side of the table.
		
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What is childish is for someone in Tuskâ€™s position to be making insulting comments that bear no resemblance to reality at a time like this.
Who needs to be reprimanded on the UK side of the negotiations? Or is it more  â€œUK bad, EU goodâ€? 
If you are looking at this particular incident with a balanced view, I canâ€™t really see how you can defend it. But I admire your efforts.


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## drdel (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That's not what he said..
He wondered "what the special place in hell looks like for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely"

So, not Brexit supporters.. just those in power who pushed for it without any idea of how to actually do it..

It doesn't help if you don't put the comment in its proper context, does it?
		
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Using the word "hell" in the context of diplomatic briefing was guaranteed to raise emotions as he well knew. He rapidly went on social media to further maximise his effect and stroke his ego.

IMO for a person in his position and while the EU and UK are at a sensitive stage to use such language ix just arrogant and silly.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			From both sides. ðŸ‘
		
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I don't know that the UK negotiators or senior UK people are. The muppets are, Boris, the dipstick MP who ripped up a letter on camera the other week who was plain embarrassing etc, but they are not in positions of power and are best ignored. Tusk coming out with this is a little like Jeremy Hunt making an inflammatory statement and to be fair I don't think he is. The people at the top table on both sides need to be calm and constructive, not behaving like Trump or Farage. Curse behind closed doors like all diplomats will but in the open don't play to the audience. They need to be better than that. All Tusk has done is inflame the Brexiteers and none of us win from that.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And the MP's that were in Government? Or are currently still in Government?
Also, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the comment was in the past tense. He has criticised those who have actively fought for Brexit but once they had it, slunk off into the background to lob insults and offer nothing constructive.. They've had 40 years to formulate and adapt a plan, and what do we get? Nothing. They've now conveniently forgotten all previous talk of a deal and spout meaningless platitudes about always wanting a "No Deal", despite never mentioning it before late 2018.

And with respect to your 2nd paragraph, Tusk may be being naive in using Twitter, but he's hardly the only one is he? Also, once again, he didn't state that anyone wanting Brexit deserves a place in hell.. read the actual words.. He CLEARLY stated that those who agitated for Brexit, but had absolutely no plan for how to leave deserved a special place in hell.. I'm guessing that he wasn't actually trying to get them sent to the firey pit, but who knows, he could be a God Botherer... If you're going to rant at his comment, then best that you take it in context...
		
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I think you will find that those who â€œagitated for Brexitâ€ just thought we would leave. They had every idea on how we would leave.


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## IanM (Feb 6, 2019)

What the Brexit voting uk citizens don't understand is that Mr Tusk and his chums are in charge and (in his world) you can have no say in the matter.  Their arrogance is a direct sneer at 17million  serfs having the audacity to say "enough!" 

Trouble is, the UK Govt have tried to frustrate our exit, rather than lead it.... otherwise this would have been done and dusted 18 months ago,


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Sweep said:



			And yet no mention of the EU who have frustrated negotiations for 2.5 years. Left it to the UK to make all suggestions and then knocked them back and now refuse to negotiate even though they know our govt is not in a position to sign the WA as it stands.
And brexiteers did not slunk off into the background. They were sidelined.
Maybe the problems started the day after the referendum when someone said â€œ now we will go to Brussels to negotiateâ€. Maybe we should have just left and let the EU do the running. Maybe thatâ€™s what we should do now. Maybe we will end up doing that anyway. At least it would have saved us 2.5 years of nonsense.
		
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That would be one opinion.. No doubt shared by many.. Many would have a completely different opinion.. 
I am somewhat tickled by the fact that you lay absolutely all the blame in one place.. I'm 45 and have never yet seen a situation like this where blame could all be laid in one direction.. Never.. Still, there's a first for everything I suppose...


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I donâ€™t remember the UK govt throwing around insults.
		
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Look harder..
Also look at Uk MP's, Uk MEP's etc etc etc..


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Sweep said:



			What is childish is for someone in Tuskâ€™s position to be making insulting comments that bear no resemblance to reality at a time like this.
Who needs to be reprimanded on the UK side of the negotiations? Or is it more  â€œUK bad, EU goodâ€?
If you are looking at this particular incident with a balanced view, I canâ€™t really see how you can defend it. But I admire your efforts.
		
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And I admire your efforts to make this purely a EU issue.. You're laying all the blame exactly where you're being told to by the people who have failed us the most..


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Oh damn.. I did start to respond to all the above posts, then got bored.. Disagree all you want.. I'm saying that both sides should be ashamed of themselves. I personally think that more blame sits with the Uk negotiating team, but that's my opinion and I don't really care if anyone shares it.. Some on here think that the blame only goes one way.. Strange to think that I'm being accused of bias towards the EU when I'm the one laying blame on both sides... Quite funny...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Which was really the point i was trying to make... Brexit is a cross party problem.
		
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So why compare Scots votes cast in an unwanted dead end GE with a EU referendum. Apples and pears.


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## drdel (Feb 6, 2019)

Apart from Tusk's stupid use of words I wonder if he and his cohorts in the EU have considered that the UK (has, can) is prepared to make future plans but Barnier explicity said the future had to wait until the separation was agreed : now all they 'say' they want is the UK's plans and that's what they are wanting for.

It is a bad example of brinkmanship and a rerun of their negotiating strategy used on Greece.


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## Foxholer (Feb 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So why compare Scots votes cast in an unwanted dead end GE with a EU referendum. Apples and pears.
		
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 Let it go Doom. There's no meat for you on that bone!


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## Fade and Die (Feb 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So why compare Scots votes cast in an unwanted dead end GE with a EU referendum. Apples and pears.
		
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I wish there was a "shoot myself in the head" emoji.


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## User62651 (Feb 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I wish there was a "shoot myself in the head" emoji. 

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Never mind, it's hump day and it's all freewheelin' downhill to the weekend!


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Never mind, it's hump day and it's all freewheelin' downhill to the weekend!

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You're lucky. Those of us that are retired don't get weekends and bank holidays anymore. Every day is the same.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			What the Brexit voting uk citizens don't understand is that Mr Tusk and his chums are in charge and (in his world) you can have no say in the matter.  Their arrogance is a direct sneer at 17million  serfs having the audacity to say "enough!"

Trouble is, the UK Govt have tried to frustrate our exit, rather than lead it.... otherwise this would have been done and dusted 18 months ago,
		
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Serfs...â€¦â€¦.that is a strange word for someone who supports Brexit to use.

The trouble is.......the Leave campaign did not have a scooby about what to do once they had won.
Remember the faces of Johnson and Farage the morning after, they knew what was coming and like rats ran away from the sinking ship.

PS I thought the Speaker and Johanna put Peter Bone firmly back into his box at Westminster re 'Hell' comments. Sensitive flower indeed and if the cap fits wear it springs to mind.


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## Dando (Feb 6, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Suprised no one had mentioned Mr Tusks comments â€œ of a special place in hell for those that pushed for Brexit without having any plansâ€.
Gonna jeep my comments on him
To myself but one word springs to mind.
		
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Does it begin with â€œcâ€?


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Look harder..
Also look at Uk MP's, Uk MEP's etc etc etc..
		
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Still donâ€™t remember anyone from the UK govt throwing insults.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That would be one opinion.. No doubt shared by many.. Many would have a completely different opinion..
I am somewhat tickled by the fact that you lay absolutely all the blame in one place.. I'm 45 and have never yet seen a situation like this where blame could all be laid in one direction.. Never.. Still, there's a first for everything I suppose...
		
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I am not laying all the blame at one place. Try reading my posts.
But in this instance the blame is all on Tusk.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And I admire your efforts to make this purely a EU issue.. You're laying all the blame exactly where you're being told to by the people who have failed us the most..
		
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Why donâ€™t you just say who YOU think has failed us most and why.
And then decide if you will vote for them at the next election. Because you can vote to remove them and if enough of us agree, they will be removed.
And then decide if you approve of the actions of Tusk, Dunker et al and decide if you are going to vote for them at..... oh hang on.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Oh damn.. I did start to respond to all the above posts, then got bored.. Disagree all you want.. I'm saying that both sides should be ashamed of themselves. I personally think that more blame sits with the Uk negotiating team, but that's my opinion and I don't really care if anyone shares it.. Some on here think that the blame only goes one way.. Strange to think that I'm being accused of bias towards the EU when I'm the one laying blame on both sides... Quite funny...
		
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But you are not laying any blame on the EU at all. Probably because you got bored before you got to that bit.
The idea of a debate is to persuade those of a different opinion to change their mind or at least see things differently. I agree, itâ€™s probably wasted effort now, but the point still remains. If you donâ€™t care or are not interested in the opinion of others then posting is definitely a waste of time I should say.
I expect though that you donâ€™t really want to admit that itâ€™s hard to defend Tusk on this one.


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Why donâ€™t you just say who YOU think has failed us most and why.
And then decide if you will vote for them at the next election. Because you can vote to remove them and if enough of us agree, they will be removed.
And then decide if you approve of the actions of Tusk, Dunker et al and decide if you are going to vote for them at..... oh hang on.
		
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I just wrote quite a lengthy response containing quite a lot of my thoughts on this matter.. Then I realised that I don't actually care what any on here think.. I've accepted that Brexit will happen. I've made plans for when it does. I'm not one of those likely to be overly badly hit if it goes very wrong. 

I do still think that there should be an extension of Article 50 as we don't have time to put the legislation in place. However, I'm fairly sure this won't happen as quite a few of the most vocal Brexiteers in power appear quite concerned about something coming at the beginning of April.. 

Have away at it fellas


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Sweep said:



			But you are not laying any blame on the EU at all. Probably because you got bored before you got to that bit.
The idea of a debate is to persuade those of a different opinion to change their mind or at least see things differently. I agree, itâ€™s probably wasted effort now, but the point still remains. If you donâ€™t care or are not interested in the opinion of others then posting is definitely a waste of time I should say.
I expect though that you donâ€™t really want to admit that itâ€™s hard to defend Tusk on this one.
		
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I don't need to defend him.. I agree with him.. I'm more surprised at how offended people on here are by it.. I don't like the obvious term, but people do appear to be very easily offended!


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## spongebob59 (Feb 6, 2019)

they're all at it now !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093200394027761664


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 6, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Still donâ€™t remember anyone from the UK govt throwing insults.
		
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I must only assume you were not watching when Leave supporting MP's were being howled down by Tory MP's in attempts to stop them from speaking at Westminster.
Or when Labour and Tory MP's directed the following words at Brexit supporting MP's

Go back to Skye
F....off
You are a little s...

Sorry if anyone is offended by my ....out words.


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			they're all at it now !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093200394027761664

Click to expand...

That was quite funny actually. 
I suppose you have to ask yourself why they've made these statements now?


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## harpo_72 (Feb 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			they're all at it now !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093200394027761664

Click to expand...

ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## drdel (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I just wrote quite a lengthy response containing quite a lot of my thoughts on this matter.. *Then I realised that I don't actually care what any on here think..* I've accepted that Brexit will happen. I've made plans for when it does. I'm not one of those likely to be overly badly hit if it goes very wrong.

I do still think that there should be an extension of Article 50 as we don't have time to put the legislation in place. However, I'm fairly sure this won't happen as quite a few of the most vocal Brexiteers in power appear quite concerned about something coming at the beginning of April..

Have away at it fellas 

Click to expand...

Really its a Forum of idle debate! 

If you don't care what anyone on here thinks I'm at a loss as to why you bother posting comments - is it because you expect others to care and take unquestioning what you say from your position of superiority?

Perhaps you might tell me why you think senior staff from Brussels should play juvenile games by using press briefing to bleat on and trivialise the outcomes of meetings on social media in the midst of what I'd consider important discussions that will impact citizens on both sides.

These unelected characters like, Barneir, Junker, Tusk, Verhofstadt and Semayr are grandstanding with these silly tweets and playing to their peers in Brussels *NOT* to the citizens of the 27.

IMO it simply demonstrates what can go wrong when arrogant decision making is divorced from accountability.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I don't need to defend him.. I agree with him.. I'm more surprised at how offended people on here are by it.. I don't like the obvious term, but people do appear to be very easily offended!
		
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Itâ€™s the truth ... if you did not laugh, you would cry.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2019)

Dando said:



			Does it begin with â€œcâ€?
		
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I can assure you it is definately not City, Stop trying to wind me up ðŸ˜‚


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2019)

When there's all the baying and cat calling in the House of Commons pretty much everyone and their dog decries it. And yet some people think unprofessional behaviour from senior politicians in the EU is ok. Ask yourself what the response would be if this happened in your workplace. What you believe and what you say in the workplace can be two very different things. You know HR would have a field day with this sort of thing.

Its unprofessional and its doubly unhelpful. May will, hopefully, be bringing something back to the UK Parliament that she will have to try and get through. Tusk's comments are crass and insensitive, and all he's achieved is getting the backs up of people May has to try and get on-side. As for Verhofstadt... best not say. The guy is a joke.


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## drdel (Feb 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			When there's all the baying and cat calling in the House of Commons pretty much everyone and their dog decries it. And yet some people think unprofessional behaviour from senior politicians in the EU is ok. Ask yourself what the response would be if this happened in your workplace. What you believe and what you say in the workplace can be two very different things. You know HR would have a field day with this sort of thing.

Its unprofessional and its doubly unhelpful. May will, hopefully, be bringing something back to the UK Parliament that she will have to try and get through. Tusk's comments are crass and insensitive, and all he's achieved is getting the backs up of people May has to try and get on-side. As for Verhofstadt... best not say. The guy is a joke.
		
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I guess a redeeming feature of the HoC (apart from being elected people) is that they have the courage to insult each other face to face (generally). 

What's worse is Tusk and Varadkar were giggling and smirking like idiotic kids after the comment. If I was Irish I'd be embarrassed.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I don't need to defend him.. I agree with him.. I'm more surprised at how offended people on here are by it.. I don't like the obvious term, but people do appear to be very easily offended!
		
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So do you believe these comments were helpful at this particular time?
Do you believe this is the kind of behaviour expected from him by the people he governs?
Are you concerned about his genuine intentions given that just one minute before he said 
"I strongly believe a common solution is possible and I will do everything in my power to find it"?
Or is it really a case of the EU can do no wrong?


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I must only assume you were not watching when Leave supporting MP's were being howled down by Tory MP's in attempts to stop them from speaking at Westminster.
Or when Labour and Tory MP's directed the following words at Brexit supporting MP's

Go back to Skye
F....off
You are a little s...

Sorry if anyone is offended by my ....out words.
		
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I still donâ€™t remember anyone from the UK government throwing insults at the EU.
And let me add to that. Certainly not someone in such a high position as Tusk is in the EU.


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I still donâ€™t remember anyone from the UK government throwing insults at the EU.
And let me add to that. Certainly not someone in such a high position as Tusk is in the EU.
		
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You need to watch some of Farage's speeches in the EU Parliament. He, and some of his cronies, are worse than you've heard today. They represent the UK in the EU parliament, not some little constituency.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That was quite funny actually.
I suppose you have to ask yourself why they've made these statements now?
		
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My point exactly. Why now? Why are those who are so against a no deal supporting these kind of comments at this critical time? Is this going to help avoid a no deal? If this was the UK side they would be screaming the house down. 
Seemingly some people like being governed by the childish.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You need to watch some of Farage's speeches in the EU Parliament. He, and some of his cronies, are worse than you've heard today. They represent the UK in the EU parliament, not some little constituency.
		
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Check the word â€œgovernmentâ€


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Sweep said:



			So do you believe these comments were helpful at this particular time?
Do you believe this is the kind of behaviour expected from him by the people he governs?
Are you concerned about his genuine intentions given that just one minute before he said 
"I strongly believe a common solution is possible and I will do everything in my power to find it"?
Or is it really a case of the EU can do no wrong?
		
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I suspect that he, like quite a few people, realise that the negotiation is well and truly over. May hasn't moved at all, despite the rather laughable votes that were held recently. They know full well that even if the EU did move, it wouldn't get through the HoC. I think they've given up now and are letting their frustrations out. 

Does anyone on here actually think that a Deal is possible?


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			Really its a Forum of idle debate!

If you don't care what anyone on here thinks I'm at a loss as to why you bother posting comments - is it because you expect others to care and take unquestioning what you say from your position of superiority?

Perhaps you might tell me why you think senior staff from Brussels should play juvenile games by using press briefing to bleat on and trivialise the outcomes of meetings on social media in the midst of what I'd consider important discussions that will impact citizens on both sides.

These unelected characters like, Barneir, Junker, Tusk, Verhofstadt and Semayr are grandstanding with these silly tweets and playing to their peers in Brussels *NOT* to the citizens of the 27.

IMO it simply demonstrates what can go wrong when arrogant decision making is divorced from accountability.
		
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This. Nail on head


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## Foxholer (Feb 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			they're all at it now !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093200394027761664

Click to expand...

If only those 2 could simply celebrate the exit of Farage from the EU Parliament!

He (Farage) has been a thorn in their collective sides for quite a long while now!

Tusk is a man with a mission, in a position of more power more than he should have.

Verhofstadt, imo, is actually far more dangerous to the best interests of Europe. He IS an unashamedly Federalist - a position I detest.

FWIW, I prefer the much less dictatorial 'mutual co-operation' approach, albeit with a certain amount of centralised 'control'! It's a case of getting the 'balance' right! The 'devolved' approach that exists in the UK has distinct advantages imo, though a few disadvantages as well!


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Sweep said:



			My point exactly. Why now? Why are those who are so against a no deal supporting these kind of comments at this critical time? Is this going to help avoid a no deal? If this was the UK side they would be screaming the house down. 
Seemingly some people like being governed by the childish.
		
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There won't be a Deal. It simply won't happen. There are too many people who want a No Deal but are making different noises in public. 
If it does, I'll be the first to come on here and say I was wrong....


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Check the word â€œgovernmentâ€
		
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I don't need to check the word government. Whether you like Farage or not, he and some of his, even more obnoxious friends represent you in the EU parliament. Are you saying you approve of Farage's past comments? If you do, what makes them better or different to Tusk's comments?


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I suspect that he, like quite a few people, realise that the negotiation is well and truly over. May hasn't moved at all, despite the rather laughable votes that were held recently. They know full well that even if the EU did move, it wouldn't get through the HoC. I think they've given up now and are letting their frustrations out.

Does anyone on here actually think that a Deal is possible?
		
Click to expand...

A deal is possible. It depends on both sides willingness to compromise.


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			Really its a Forum of idle debate! 

If you don't care what anyone on here thinks I'm at a loss as to why you bother posting comments - is it because you expect others to care and take unquestioning what you say from your position of superiority?

Perhaps you might tell me why you think senior staff from Brussels should play juvenile games by using press briefing to bleat on and trivialise the outcomes of meetings on social media in the midst of what I'd consider important discussions that will impact citizens on both sides.

These unelected characters like, Barneir, Junker, Tusk, Verhofstadt and Semayr are grandstanding with these silly tweets and playing to their peers in Brussels *NOT* to the citizens of the 27.

IMO it simply demonstrates what can go wrong when arrogant decision making is divorced from accountability.
		
Click to expand...

Position of Superiority ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

So anyone who disagrees with the cult of Brexit is somehow arrogant and condescending?

I don't care what anyone thinks because it won't make a blind bit of difference. I like to make an occasional comment to see if it helps or hinders. Do you just want people who agree with you


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## Foxholer (Feb 6, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Never mind, it's hump day and it's all freewheelin' downhill to the weekend!

Click to expand...

Damn! Just had to look that up, as I can't remember hearing it before!

Thought it might have an entirely different meaning altogether!


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I don't need to check the word government. Whether you like Farage or not, he and some of his, even more obnoxious friends represent you in the EU parliament. Are you saying you approve of Farage's past comments? If you do, what makes them better or different to Tusk's comments?
		
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I didnâ€™t say anything about Farage. I was talking about the UK govt particularly at a high and negotiating  level. 
The EU Parliament is worse than the HoC for baying debate. Itâ€™s the culture. And no, I donâ€™t approve of this kind of debate from any side. Itâ€™s unprofessional and achieves nothing.


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## drdel (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Position of Superiority ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

*So anyone who disagrees with the cult of Brexit is somehow arrogant and condescending?*

I don't care what anyone thinks because it won't make a blind bit of difference. I like to make an occasional comment to see if it helps or hinders. Do you just want people who agree with you
		
Click to expand...

I challenged the defence of Tusk not whether you support or oppose Brexit. Also note I was not insulted by Tusk's word I'm just saddened by the fact he, a supposedly intelligent person in an important position, chose to use it at a sensitive time. That's unless, of course, he is deliberately trying to play games.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			From both sides. ðŸ‘
		
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But is it. Can you imagine May or anyone in her cabinet making such comments. I can't.

It's not the first time. tusk has used these antics either, remember his pathetic tweet about May and the cakes.  

As someone holding a position exhaulting him onto the world stage it's petty and below his position.


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			I challenged the defence of Tusk not whether you support or oppose Brexit. Also note I was not insulted by Tusk's word I'm just saddened by the fact he, a supposedly intelligent person in an important position, chose to use it at a sensitive time. That's unless, of course, he is deliberately trying to play games.
		
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Spot on!

Its not about whether Tusk believes what he said, its about him saying it in public right in the middle of one of the most critical times for the EU and the UK. They need the â‚¬39bn + all the add on's that are starting to appear. They need to protect Ireland's economy and the Good Friday Agreement. What he said was very unhelpful to both sides, and just feeds the No Deal cause.


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## Foxholer (Feb 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			Really its a Forum of idle debate!

If you don't care what anyone on here thinks I'm at a loss as to why you bother posting comments - is it because you expect others to care and take unquestioning what you say from your position of superiority?

Perhaps you might tell me why you think senior staff from Brussels should play juvenile games by using press briefing to bleat on and trivialise the outcomes of meetings on social media in the midst of what I'd consider important discussions that will impact citizens on both sides.

*These unelected characters like, Barneir, Junker, Tusk, Verhofstadt and Semayr* are grandstanding with these silly tweets and playing to their peers in Brussels NOT to the citizens of the 27.

IMO it simply demonstrates what can go wrong when arrogant decision making is divorced from accountability.
		
Click to expand...

While I agree entirely with most of the sentiment above, please stop the continual fallacy that these (generally unsavoury imo) folk are unelected! While it's not the same as for the House of Commons (which can be argued as 'corrupt' for different reasons) or the Lords (likewise) there IS a 'vote of consent' performed by the European Parliament. It's would be almost as legitimate to state that members of Cabinet are 'unelected' imo!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I suspect that he, like quite a few people, realise that the negotiation is well and truly over. May hasn't moved at all, despite the rather laughable votes that were held recently. They know full well that even if the EU did move, it wouldn't get through the HoC. I think they've given up now and are letting their frustrations out. 

Does anyone on here actually think that a Deal is possible?
		
Click to expand...

I do but only if we are strong enough to see the game through.  The Wets are making that very difficult though


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I suspect that he, like quite a few people, realise that the negotiation is well and truly over. May hasn't moved at all, despite the rather laughable votes that were held recently. They know full well that even if the EU did move, it wouldn't get through the HoC. I think they've given up now and are letting their frustrations out.

*Does anyone on here actually think that a Deal is possible?*

Click to expand...




Sweep said:



			A deal is possible. *It depends on both sides willingness to compromise*.
		
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And therein lies the issue.  The EU is never going to willingly allow a net contributor to walk out the door with a decent deal.  It threatens the stability of the whole union and certain individuals positions of power.  They see our negotiating team, quite rightly in my opinion, as weak, and as such they aren't giving an inch; no compromise whatsoever.  So no, I don't think a deal is achievable at the moment; at least not a deal beneficial to the UK.

The only way I foresee that happening is if we walk with no deal and then the EU is forced to negotiate to get anything out of us.


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## drdel (Feb 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree entirely with most of the sentiment above, *please stop the continual fallacy* that these (generally unsavoury imo) folk are unelected! While it's not the same as for the House of Commons (which can be argued as 'corrupt' for different reasons) or the Lords (likewise) there IS a 'vote of consent' performed by the European Parliament. It's would be almost as legitimate to state that members of Cabinet are 'unelected' imo!
		
Click to expand...

Its a blinking golf Forum debate - I wish you'd stop giving out orders. I've worked with the EU at senior levels so there's no 'continual fallacy' in my understanding of its governance structure. You might look at the actual people referenced. A good example of dubious posting is Selmayr's appointment that followed a questionable process which involved no election by anyone !


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its a blinking golf Forum debate - I wish you'd stop giving out orders. I've worked with the EU at senior levels so there's no 'continually fallacy' in my understanding of its governance structure. You might look at the actual people referenced. A good example of dubious posting is Selmayr's appointment that followed a questionable process which involved no election by anyone !
		
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You're being too British there. "followed a questionable process..." It was down right bent. Brexit aside, he is a very nasty piece of work with whoever he's dealing with.


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			I challenged the defence of Tusk not whether you support or oppose Brexit. Also note I was not insulted by Tusk's word I'm just saddened by the fact he, a supposedly intelligent person in an important position, chose to use it at a sensitive time. That's unless, of course, he is deliberately trying to play games.
		
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It's interesting that people appear to be taking issue with his terminology and not his point...
And as far as playing games goes, both sides are adept at that. The current flip flopping by the ERG. May's shameless about face on the "Deal". Neither side comes out of this well. The only real measure of this whole thing is the comparative position of the UK and the EU in 5-10 years.

Oh, and do we genuinely think that the EU negotiating team don't see every attempt by British MP's like Francois and Kawazinki (so) to denigrate and demean them?


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Oh, and do we genuinely think that the EU negotiating team don't see every attempt by British MP's like Francois and Kawazinki (so) to denigrate and demean them?
		
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There's a world of a difference between some (relatively) unknown backbencher spouting off and Tusk having a pop.


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There's a world of a difference between some (relatively) unknown backbencher spouting off and Tusk having a pop.
		
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Not if they're not put in their place by the people they work alongside and also represent. 
We'll have to agree to disagree there...


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Not if they're not put in their place by the people they work alongside and also represent.
We'll have to agree to disagree there...
		
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I look forward to Tusk being put in his place then...


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## bluewolf (Feb 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I look forward to Tusk being put in his place then...
		
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And I'll look forward to the Cabinet putting Johnson, R-M, Leadsom and a host of backbenchers in their place. We'd best not hold our breath though....


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## drdel (Feb 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I look forward to Tusk being put in his place then...
		
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He'll get promoted - which the main game in play.


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## Mudball (Feb 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But is it. *Can you imagine May or anyone in her cabinet making such comments*. I can't.

It's not the first time. tusk has used these antics either, remember his pathetic tweet about May and the cakes. 

As someone holding a position exhaulting him onto the world stage it's petty and below his position.
		
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Can someone point the right honourable gentleman to the thread about the "Wise Words of Boris" where he has more than once decided to make good use of the English language for maximum result..   Funny he gets away with it, but Tusk wont.    Acc 2 Laura, Tusk took shots at Brexiters as well as Remainers..


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## drdel (Feb 6, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Can someone point the right honourable gentleman to the thread about the "Wise Words of Boris" where he has more than once decided to make good use of the English language for maximum result..   Funny he gets away with it, but Tusk wont.    Acc 2 Laura, Tusk took shots at Brexiters as well as Remainers..
		
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Boris is not one of the negotiators. He has the freedom/luxury of a backseat observer.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree entirely with most of the sentiment above, please stop the continual fallacy that these (generally unsavoury imo) folk are unelected! While it's not the same as for the House of Commons (which can be argued as 'corrupt' for different reasons) or the Lords (likewise) there IS a 'vote of consent' performed by the European Parliament. It's would be almost as legitimate to state that members of Cabinet are 'unelected' imo!
		
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Foxholer said:



			While I agree entirely with most of the sentiment above, please stop the continual fallacy that these (generally unsavoury imo) folk are unelected! While it's not the same as for the House of Commons (which can be argued as 'corrupt' for different reasons) or the Lords (likewise) there IS a 'vote of consent' performed by the European Parliament. It's would be almost as legitimate to state that members of Cabinet are 'unelected' imo!
		
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the President of the European Commission, currently Jean Claude Juncker, is elected by the European Parliament. He is not and never has been an MEP (Juncker was PM of Luxembourg prior to his appointment). So it is nothing like our members of Cabinet who are in nearly all cases elected MPâ€™s. They have appeared on ballot papers and have been elected before and by the people they govern. Juncker has not.
The President of the European Council is elected by members of the European Council. Prior to the Lisbon Treaty the arrangement was different but following Lisbon the Council elect a President for terms of 2.5 years. The current President is Donald Tusk. His name has never appeared on an EU ballot paper before the people the EU governs. So nothing like our Cabinet ministers either.
It could be claimed these and other â€œtop dogsâ€ are elected, but at best the democratic process is so diluted as to be virtually non-existent. In reality the people of the EU, (the ones who really count and who are the ones most often forgotten) cannot remove the people at the top of this level of government, which renders it undemocratic. And what you get when your leaders are not removable through the ballot box is nonsense like todayâ€™s Tusk debacle.
So I and I am sure others will continue to call into question these â€œleadersâ€ democratic legitimacy, because we are right.


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## Sweep (Feb 6, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Can someone point the right honourable gentleman to the thread about the "Wise Words of Boris" where he has more than once decided to make good use of the English language for maximum result..   Funny he gets away with it, but Tusk wont.    Acc 2 Laura, Tusk took shots at Brexiters as well as Remainers..
		
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He said remainers arenâ€™t organised. He didnâ€™t mention a special place in hell for them.
Right now I am guessing remainers arenâ€™t too chuffed with Mr Tusk either. He is doing a grand job for the leave camp.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Can someone point the right honourable gentleman to the thread about the "Wise Words of Boris" where he has more than once decided to make good use of the English language for maximum result..   Funny he gets away with it, but Tusk wont.    Acc 2 Laura, Tusk took shots at Brexiters as well as Remainers..
		
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Can you not see the difference between a back bench MP spouting off and and someone in Tusks role.  OK MEPs may also spout off in the EU Parliament but thats to be expected, Tusk should be a world player and above this nonsence.  Its not the first time either.
The Brits dont like being spoken to in this manner, irrespective of what some fence sitters may say I think he may have turned some Remainers into Leavers by it.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			Boris is not one of the negotiators. He has the freedom/luxury of a backseat observer.
		
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Nonsense. He is the former Foreign Secretary and present PM hopeful. He's a current lead Brexiteer and Political columnist. His words carry just as much weight as Tusk's. As do Rees-Moggs and David Davis'. Throw Raab, who's uneducated ramblings regarding Ports and the GFA have demeaned us all in the mix as well
You're clutching at straws and feigning offence because it suits your argument. 

We've been just as bad, if not worse. 

Anyway, as I said before, I suspect this "outburst" tells us exactly what likelihood there is if a deal. None. The Tories have been doing nothing but delaying for almost 2 years now.

Anyway, they could always shut him right up by telling us what their plan is, couldn't they?

Quick edit: by "you're" I mean all staunch Brexit supporters. Not you personally ðŸ‘


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## oxymoron (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			LOL, you quoted my post! So it was aimed specifically at me. And you haven't touched a nerve at all, but if you aim a comment at me, I'm likely to respond.

whether you agree with his comment or not, he has every right to make it. To decide that he is somehow "not very constructive" whilst ignoring every other comment by Uk based commentators appears to be a touch one sided. If we were to compile all the comments made by protagonists on both sides and critique them all then that would be better. But that isn't happening.. Horrible statements by people like Mark Francois and Daniel Kawazinski appear to go unnoticed by most on here..

Oh, and I'm desperate for it to be over as well. This is a dark time for Britain and I suspect that history will not be kind to us.. Any of us..

(sorry if this is a little disjointed. I'm currently attempting to work out a Shipping itinerary for a product currently in production, that is due to leave in March, pass through 2 European Ports before finally heading to the USA in April. My head is in bits!!!  )
		
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I quoted your post because it had the text in i wanted to highlight , so sorry i should have put a disclaimer in that i was not picking at you .

And yes he does have every right to make any comment he likes  but there is a time and a place for everything and this was neither the time or the place .The key player in this ,should all take a step back and calm down a bit . To be brutally honest i have not read or indeed seen any comments by the other 2 you mention but if as you say they are inflammatory then they should also be treated the same as Tusk's comment .


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 7, 2019)

Goodness me I did not realise how many poor wee sensitive souls there were on the Leave side.
A couple of 'home truths' and they run away calling for nanny.

A few weeks to go and we still do not have a clue what the Leavers and Labour plan is.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 7, 2019)

When Donald makes the travel arrangements, to the furnaces of hell, for the architects of Brexit... There ought be priority seats for Messrs Major, Blair and Cameron...


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			When Donald makes the travel arrangements, to the furnaces of hell, for the architects of Brexit... There ought be priority seats for Messrs Major, Blair and Cameron...
		
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I suspect that it's going to need a 2nd carriage. I'd throw Corbyn and (most definitely) Milne in there as well. 
Seumas Milne is quite possibly the most guilty party out there. A horrible little champagne socialist that is playing fast and loose with other people's lives ðŸ˜¤ðŸ˜¤


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 7, 2019)

There's a lot of  



 going on by some leavers.

possibly not the most constructive thing to say.  But on the other hand I agree with every word including the bit he said about those wanting to stay having no political force or effective leadership.  He's effectively saying we have made a right balls up of the whole thing on both sides which I can't argue with.  I just expect he has had his fill of agreeing a deal, then the UK coming back and saying what they don't want but not being able to give any clear idea what they do want and especially how they will achieve it.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I suspect that it's going to need a 2nd carriage. I'd throw Corbyn and (most definitely) Milne in there as well. 
Seumas Milne is quite possibly the most guilty party out there. A horrible little champagne socialist that is playing fast and loose with other people's lives ðŸ˜¤ðŸ˜¤
		
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Then we ought also include the business folk who have used EU policies to disadvantage British workers...


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 7, 2019)

Today is going to be a very peculiar day. Two groups of people are supposed to sit down and try to gain some movement on an issue. One party have said they will not move and are throwing insults out and inflamming the situation. The other side are saying they will not move and are sending the same people who previously agreed and signed off on a deal, 'you know the deal we agreed upon, errrmmm, we've changed our minds'

Credibility on all sides is shot. It wont happen but it wouldn't half help if both sides sent new people with no baggage.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 7, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Today is going to be a very peculiar day. Two groups of people are supposed to sit down and try to gain some movement on an issue. One party have said they will not move and are throwing insults out and inflamming the situation. The other side are saying they will not move and are sending the same people who previously agreed and signed off on a deal, 'you know the deal we agreed upon, errrmmm, we've changed our minds'

Credibility on all sides is shot. It wont happen but it wouldn't half help if both sides sent new people with no baggage.
		
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I still think they will do some kind of deal which will mostly consist of some clever wording that involves kicking the backstop can sufficiently down the road to appease both the EU and Parliament.  But we'll be in much the same position of not agreeing a way forwards 60 odd days before the transition period runs out.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Then we ought also include the business folk who have used EU policies to disadvantage British workers...
		
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Can we include Media Barons and Editors who have spent 40 years lying to us about the negatives of the EU and ignoring the positives? Oh, and Ant Macpartlin. Just because.


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me I did not realise how many poor wee sensitive souls there were on the Leave side.
A couple of 'home truths' and they run away calling for nanny.

A few weeks to go and we still do not have a clue what the Leavers and Labour plan is.
		
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Thatâ€™s because you believe we all think like you. We donâ€™t get offended on behalf of others like you do. Tusk did not deride us as leavers. He derided the politicians who advocated leave for not having a plan, even though they did and even though he is well aware the EU have thwarted negotiations to protect their own project.
We are not offended. We are appalled by the lack of professionalism shown by him and others in the EU who have failed to distance themselves from his ludicrous insult. We are appalled at his sense of timing. We are amazed that he really thinks this is the behaviour expected of a â€œPresidentâ€. We find it incredulous that he thinks this is the best way to govern for the people of the EU.
If you think any of these points are wrong, now might be the time to say so, or are we to believe that you just support any old bs that comes out of the EU? Are you that far gone?
These â€œhome truthsâ€ are not truths at all. There is no special place in hell. Itâ€™s drivel. And no-one is crying for nanny, so thatâ€™s more drivel.
I do agree with you on a plan. May spent far too long on her deal that was never going to pass and this is the result. However, I also recognise that any deal has more than one side and the EU have not helped in this taking so long either.


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## jp5 (Feb 7, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Credibility on all sides is shot. It wont happen but it wouldn't half help if both sides sent new people with no baggage.
		
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It wouldnâ€™t make any difference as the fundamentals remain the same - May wants a hard border for Britain with the EU but not for NI. Until she or someone else decides which path to go down nothing will change.


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## Old Skier (Feb 7, 2019)

Funny how remainers comment on the no plan when in reality it appears that the EU was that arrogant they never thought anyone would dare to leave so never had a plan to deal with it.

I thought our plan was to leave the EU, as soon as we announced that we should have had the right to start planning and negotiating with the rest of the world what would happen on the day after we left but no, the EU does not allow a leaver to negotiate with any country until they have actually left.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Thatâ€™s because you believe we all think like you. We donâ€™t get offended on behalf of others like you do. Tusk did not deride us as leavers. He derided the politicians who advocated leave for not having a plan, even though they did and even though he is well aware the EU have thwarted negotiations to protect their own project.
We are not offended. We are appalled by the lack of professionalism shown by him and others in the EU who have failed to distance themselves from his ludicrous insult. We are appalled at his sense of timing. We are amazed that he really thinks this is the behaviour expected of a â€œPresidentâ€. We find it incredulous that he thinks this is the best way to govern for the people of the EU.
If you think any of these points are wrong, now might be the time to say so, or are we to believe that you just support any old bs that comes out of the EU? Are you that far gone?
These â€œhome truthsâ€ are not truths at all. There is no special place in hell. Itâ€™s drivel. And no-one is crying for nanny, so thatâ€™s more drivel.
I do agree with you on a plan. May spent far too long on her deal that was never going to pass and this is the result. However, I also recognise that any deal has more than one side and the EU have not helped in this taking so long either.
		
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What was the plan? If they could just let someone know quite soon that would help, because they've been doing a spot on impersonation of people without a coherent thought for 2 years now....


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Funny how remainers comment on the no plan when in reality it appears that the EU was that arrogant they never thought anyone would dare to leave so never had a plan to deal with it.

I thought our plan was to leave the EU, as soon as we announced that we should have had the right to start planning and negotiating with the rest of the world what would happen on the day after we left but no, the EU does not allow a leaver to negotiate with any country until they have actually left.
		
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Why would the EU need a plan? We voted to leave. It's up to us to come up with the bloody plan!!
Oh, and the no negotiation clause was well known before we activated Art 50, so feigning surprise now is a bit rich.


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			There's a lot of  



 going on by some leavers.

possibly not the most constructive thing to say.  But on the other hand I agree with every word including the bit he said about those wanting to stay having no political force or effective leadership.  He's effectively saying we have made a right balls up of the whole thing on both sides which I can't argue with.  I just expect he has had his fill of agreeing a deal, then the UK coming back and saying what they don't want but not being able to give any clear idea what they do want and especially how they will achieve it.
		
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Except that the democratic and political processes of the United Kingdom are nothing to do with him.
Perhaps if he has had his fill of agreeing a deal he should resign. After all itâ€™s his job. And in that regard, is he agreeing a deal? The last I heard the EU have stopped negotiating. So what has he had his fill of? He has probably had his fill of the UK not agreeing what he wants. He has probably had his fill of us not doing what he demands anymore.
And if you believe the EU is entirely guilt free in why these negotiations have been so difficult and taken so long then I have to question where you have been for the last 32 months.


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			'...I wish you'd stop giving out orders....
		
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Orders?  Simply a request! And slightly less 'orders-like' than yours (imo)!


drdel said:



			...I've worked with the EU at senior levels so there's no 'continual fallacy' in my understanding of its governance structure....
		
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Were you elected to your position, or were you appointed?

Btw. I'm not a fan of any of the 'main players' in the EU 'team'! Nor of Selmayr, whose *appointments* have, indeed, been 'suspect'!


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## Old Skier (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Why would the EU need a plan? We voted to leave. It's up to us to come up with the bloody plan!!
Oh, and the no negotiation clause was well known before we activated Art 50, so feigning surprise now is a bit rich.
		
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Not feigning anything, just quoting a fact. We had a plan, that was to leave, the EU (to the satisfaction of the majority in the HOC) are the ones demanding we do this and we do that and expect the U.K. to implement their demands. The negotiators have proven to be so weak that they keep coming back and telling us what we have to do. All we have to do is leave and put whatever processes we want into place and the EU can put what they want in place on their side of the border.


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

jp5 said:



			It wouldnâ€™t make any difference as the fundamentals remain the same - May wants a hard border for Britain with the EU but not for NI. Until she or someone else decides which path to go down nothing will change.
		
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As does the EU, so the same applies to them.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Except that the democratic and political processes of the United Kingdom are nothing to do with him.
Perhaps if he has had his fill of agreeing a deal he should resign. After all itâ€™s his job. And in that regard, is he agreeing a deal? The last I heard the EU have stopped negotiating. So what has he had his fill of? He has probably had his fill of the UK not agreeing what he wants. He has probably had his fill of us not doing what he demands anymore.
And if you believe the EU is entirely guilt free in why these negotiations have been so difficult and taken so long then I have to question where you have been for the last 32 months.
		
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Do you believe that the UK negotiators are guilt free?
We presented our Red Lines, knowing full well that the clashed with the EU Red Lines. We gambled on European business leaders forcing their hand. That hasn't happened yet. We agreed a deal, then u turned on it. Agreed a divorce payment, then threatened to withhold it. We're not saints in this are we?


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			What was the plan? If they could just let someone know quite soon that would help, because they've been doing a spot on impersonation of people without a coherent thought for 2 years now....
		
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The plan was to leave.
It was remainers who came up with all the â€œwhat kind of Brexitâ€ nonsense.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not feigning anything, just quoting a fact. We had a plan, that was to leave, the EU (to the satisfaction of the majority in the HOC) are the ones demanding we do this and we do that and expect the U.K. to implement their demands. The negotiators have proven to be so weak that they keep coming back and telling us what we have to do. All we have to do is leave and put whatever processes we want into place and the EU can put what they want in place on their side of the border.
		
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Really? The entirety of our plan was "To leave". Brilliant. So simple, yet so maniacally brilliant.


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## Old Skier (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Really? The entirety of our plan was "To leave". Brilliant. So simple, yet so maniacally brilliant.
		
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Thanks, here to please.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			The plan was to leave.
It was remainers who came up with all the â€œwhat kind of Brexitâ€ nonsense.
		
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Oh my sweet lord. You're all parroting it now. 
That's not a plan. That's an intention.
I intend to leave work tonight. I'm not going to sit on the bloody doorstep of the building wondering what happens next. I have a plan to go home!!!!


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## USER1999 (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Oh my sweet lord. You're all parroting it now.
That's not a plan. That's an intention.
I intend to leave work tonight. I'm not going to sit on the bloody doorstep of the building wondering what happens next. I have a plan to go home!!!!
		
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But what if you are not allowed to make plans until after you have left the building?


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Do you believe that the UK negotiators are guilt free?
We presented our Red Lines, knowing full well that the clashed with the EU Red Lines. We gambled on European business leaders forcing their hand. That hasn't happened yet. We agreed a deal, then u turned on it. Agreed a divorce payment, then threatened to withhold it. We're not saints in this are we?
		
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No I donâ€™t believe the UK side are guilt free. If you read my posts I make that clear. It has been a shambles from both sides, mainly because both sides have not been really negotiating what they should be. The UK side has negotiated leaving without really leaving. A fudge. The EU side has negotiated in trying to protect their project first and foremost when they should have been putting their nations and people first.
There was nothing wrong with our red lines. Making them public however was.
There is still plenty of time for EU business leaders to make a fuss, believe me. Just watch what happens when Tusk et al try to explain to them there really is no deal for their biggest customer.
We didnâ€™t agree a deal. We agreed to take a deal back to the UK Parliament for ratification as did the EU with their Parliament. Theirs ratified. Ours didnâ€™t. So no deal.
The divorce payment was agreed on the proviso of a deal being done under legal advice. So far there is no deal. We havenâ€™t threatened to withhold it. If there is a deal we will pay. No deal, no pay. Nothing has changed.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			But what if you are not allowed to make plans until after you have left the building?
		
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Then I don't spend all day accusing my colleagues of holding me against my will, holding back my career and generally sulking like a spoilt child. I do the necessary work, leave for the day with everything I need in place to get home in the quickest and safest way possible.


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Oh my sweet lord. You're all parroting it now.
That's not a plan. That's an intention.
I intend to leave work tonight. I'm not going to sit on the bloody doorstep of the building wondering what happens next. I have a plan to go home!!!!
		
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I think you will find 17.4 million people voted to leave. The PLAN was to leave.
If you want to go home I think you should stick to your plan and go home. Donâ€™t sit on the â€œbloody doorstepâ€. Donâ€™t ask yourself â€œ what kind of going home do I want?â€ In the same way we said we wanted to leave so we should just have left. 
Itâ€™s remainers like you and the EU who are making it hard. Itâ€™s not hard. And unless something changes, come March 29 you will see how easy it is.


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			...

Anyway, as I said before, I suspect this "outburst" tells us exactly what likelihood there is if a deal. None. The Tories have been doing nothing but delaying for almost 2 years now.
...
		
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I'm certain it would have been just as bad (or worse) if it was Labour 'negotiating'!


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			No I donâ€™t believe the UK side are guilt free. If you read my posts I make that clear. It has been a shambles from both sides, mainly because both sides have not been really negotiating what they should be. The UK side has negotiated leaving without really leaving. A fudge. The EU side has negotiated in trying to protect their project first and foremost when they should have been putting their nations and people first.
There was nothing wrong with our red lines. Making them public however was.
There is still plenty of time for EU business leaders to make a fuss, believe me. Just watch what happens when Tusk et al try to explain to them there really is no deal for their biggest customer.
We didnâ€™t agree a deal. We agreed to take a deal back to the UK Parliament for ratification as did the EU with their Parliament. Theirs ratified. Ours didnâ€™t. So no deal.
The divorce payment was agreed on the proviso of a deal being done under legal advice. So far there is no deal. We havenâ€™t threatened to withhold it. If there is a deal we will pay. No deal, no pay. Nothing has changed.
		
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The EU team were given a negotiating position by the 27 member states. They've stuck to it. They are representing the wishes of each State. Maybe they should have had a referendum?
And why wouldn't they protect their project? They believe in it!!


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm certain it would have been just as bad (or worse) if it was Labour 'negotiating'!
		
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I agree completely, but they weren't.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Itâ€™s remainers like you and the EU who are making it hard. Itâ€™s not hard. And unless something changes, come March 29 you will see how easy it is.
		
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Here we go. It's always everyone else's fault. You bought and paid for this epic cluster. You own it. No one else. The blame lies squarely with the Leavers.


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Then I don't spend all day accusing my colleagues of holding me against my will, holding back my career and generally sulking like a spoilt child. I do the necessary work, leave for the day with everything I need in place to get home in the quickest and safest way possible.
		
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We are parroting!
What on earth are you going on about?
I think you need to go home. You shouldnâ€™t be posting on here at work anyway ðŸ˜€


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			We are parroting!
What on earth are you going on about?
I think you need to go home. You shouldnâ€™t be posting on here at work anyway ðŸ˜€
		
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Beats actually working


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Here we go. It's always everyone else's fault. You bought and paid for this epic cluster. You own it. No one else. The blame lies squarely with the Leavers.
		
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You mean we own it. The nation voted for it. The whole problem is you canâ€™t deal with the fact that your side lost. So you have tried to frustrate it. Have another go. Claim it was advisory. Stand outside Parliament waving EU flags and doing shouty things. Try and fudge it, even to the point that the only deal in town is one even remainers would rather leave than sign.
Alternatively we trigger A50 and go on time. If the EU want a deal on trade letâ€™s do a deal on trade. Do deals with the rest of the world. Do what we want. You know, like everyone else does. Like it or not, that is what we voted for
Itâ€™s not hard, unless you have a reason for wanting to make it hard.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Why would the EU need a plan? We voted to leave. It's up to us to come up with the bloody plan!!
Oh, and the no negotiation clause was well known before we activated Art 50, so feigning surprise now is a bit rich.
		
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Because they have a clause in the union that allows members to leave. If you allow people to leave then surely you should have a plan to deal with it, especially when it leaves a big hole in your finances? Unless you are that arrogant that you believe that no one ever will and just put the clause in as a sop...


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Because they have a clause in the union that allows members to leave. If you allow people to leave then surely you should have a plan to deal with it, especially when it leaves a big hole in your finances? Unless you are that arrogant that you believe that no one ever will and just put the clause in as a sop... 

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But that isn't what's being negotiated. What they do once we leave is up to them. How they arrange their finances is up to them. The actual method for how we leave is up to us.


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## jp5 (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			As does the EU, so the same applies to them.
		
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The EU doesnâ€™t want a hard border with us, thatâ€™s our decision, so up to us to find a way to do it.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			You mean we own it. The nation voted for it. The whole problem is you canâ€™t deal with the fact that your side lost. So you have tried to frustrate it. Have another go. Claim it was advisory. Stand outside Parliament waving EU flags and doing shouty things. Try and fudge it, even to the point that the only deal in town is one even remainers would rather leave than sign.
Alternatively we trigger A50 and go on time. If the EU want a deal on trade letâ€™s do a deal on trade. Do deals with the rest of the world. Do what we want. You know, like everyone else does. Like it or not, that is what we voted for
Itâ€™s not hard, unless you have a reason for wanting to make it hard.
		
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I haven't done any of those things. I accepted the vote. I've mentioned it numerous times on here. 
And I'm not making it hard. Our complete lack of clarity is. Even the ERG have shifted position numerous times.


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			the President of the European Commission, currently Jean Claude Juncker, is elected by the European Parliament....
The President of the European Council is elected by members of the European Council....
		
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So definitely not 'unelected'!


Sweep said:



			It could be claimed these and other â€œtop dogsâ€ are elected, but at best the democratic process is so diluted as to be virtually non-existent. In reality the people of the EU, (the ones who really count and who are the ones most often forgotten) cannot remove the people at the top of this level of government, which renders it undemocratic...
		
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I was most definitely not questioning whether the process was 'democratic' or not! I'm pretty certain that much of the EU's *real* power structure fails my (personal) interpretation of 'democratic' - for very similar reasons to your point above!


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## Dando (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Then I don't spend all day accusing my colleagues of holding me against my will, holding back my career and generally sulking like a spoilt child. I do the necessary work, leave for the day with everything I need in place to get home in the quickest and safest way possible.
		
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I guess remainers haven't been acting like spoilt children since they didn't get their own way


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			The EU team were given a negotiating position by the 27 member states. They've stuck to it. They are representing the wishes of each State. Maybe they should have had a referendum?
And why wouldn't they protect their project? They believe in it!!
		
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I get the feeling there will be quite a few referendums in EU countries over the next few years.
No reason why the EU shouldnâ€™t protect their project. But they should be putting their people first as any government should. Negotiating as they have done to put others off from leaving is not putting their people first. If your job in the EU was at stake over this, would you rather the EU put federalism first or a deal so you keep your job?


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## PieMan (Feb 7, 2019)

jp5 said:



			The EU doesnâ€™t want a hard border with us, thatâ€™s our decision, so up to us to find a way to do it.
		
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And the UK has consistently said that we don't want a hard border with them as well, so it should be up to both parties to find a solution to that. And we have presented to them a number of solutions which they have rejected.


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## IanM (Feb 7, 2019)

Those states who are funded by the small number of net contributors have a vested interest in the status quo.  IF the UK leaves, that leaves a hole in revenue that needs to be filled by increased contributions from the others....don't confuse that with a love of the EU

......that explains their postion on Brexit.  Simple as that.   Eeek, we'll have to pay more!!!

Merkel's refugee fetish is alienating many states regardless of the financial imperative.  It's kicking off on several fronts. 

Watch this space!


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

jp5 said:



			The EU doesnâ€™t want a hard border with us, thatâ€™s our decision, so up to us to find a way to do it.
		
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The UK has said we donâ€™t want a hard border either. We didnâ€™t have one before the EU even during the troubles when terrorists were crossing.
No-one is going to erect a border no matter what happens. Itâ€™s a red herring.


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I agree completely, but they weren't.
		
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Then specify 'the Government' or similar, not 'the Tories'!

And I'm pretty sure 'the EU negotiating team' had a sizeable responsibility too!


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			But that isn't what's being negotiated. What they do once we leave is up to them. How they arrange their finances is up to them. The actual method for how we leave is up to us.
		
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Surely the reason it is being â€œnegotiatedâ€ (because negotiations require compromise which we have established doesnâ€™t exist) is because the EU didnâ€™t have a plan in place to accommodate countries leaving? Take out a mortgage or a loan and the settlement terms and penalty clauses are all there. Not with the EU, who can then move the goalposts as it suits them. If it were any net beneficiaries leaving there wouldnâ€™t be half the fuss from them.


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I haven't done any of those things. I accepted the vote. I've mentioned it numerous times on here.
And I'm not making it hard. Our complete lack of clarity is. Even the ERG have shifted position numerous times.
		
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I use the term you as in remainers. The ERG are shifting position as the Brexit landscape shifts. Their preferred plan was to leave as I outlined.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Then specify 'the Government' or similar, not 'the Tories'!

And I'm pretty sure 'the EU negotiating team' had a sizeable responsibility too!
		
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Ridiculous statement. You're just posting for the sake of posting now.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I use the term you as in remainers. The ERG are shifting position as the Brexit landscape shifts. Their preferred plan was to leave as I outlined.
		
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Their preferred outcome was to leave. They had no plan on how to make that happen.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Surely the reason it is being â€œnegotiatedâ€ (because negotiations require compromise which we have established doesnâ€™t exist) is because the EU didnâ€™t have a plan in place to accommodate countries leaving? Take out a mortgage or a loan and the settlement terms and penalty clauses are all there. Not with the EU, who can then move the goalposts as it suits them. If it were any net beneficiaries leaving there wouldnâ€™t be half the fuss from them.
		
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That comparison doesn't work though. There have been many agencies and initiatives set up since we joined. How could the possibly set out settlement terms in an ever changing landscape. It would be impossible.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I get the feeling there will be quite a few referendums in EU countries over the next few years.
No reason why the EU shouldnâ€™t protect their project. But they should be putting their people first as any government should. Negotiating as they have done to put others off from leaving is not putting their people first. If your job in the EU was at stake over this, would you rather the EU put federalism first or a deal so you keep your job?
		
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That's your (entitled to) opinion of what is happening. I'm certain that they think they are putting their people first. I'm sure that they are trying to protect a project that they believe is best for the people of Europe.


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Ridiculous statement. You're just posting for the sake of posting now.
		
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## Old Skier (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Their preferred outcome was to leave. They had no plan on how to make that happen.
		
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Or, they had a plan but it wasn't acceptable to the EU and now they have another plan which is still not acceptable to the EU. It was also agreed with the EU that the plans had to be ratified by the various Parliaments.  The plans weren't ratified therefore it seems logical that the two teams need to come back with another plan. Note I said 2. The EU set the time lines so lets not go blaming the UK because the date is closing in.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That comparison doesn't work though. There have been many agencies and initiatives set up since we joined. How could the possibly set out settlement terms in an ever changing landscape. It would be impossible.
		
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Not necessarily but weâ€™ll never know because they didnâ€™t try. Anyway Iâ€™m almost back at work so Iâ€™ll leave the rest of you to discuss. ðŸ‘


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Or, they had a plan but it wasn't acceptable to the EU and now they have another plan which is still not acceptable to the EU. It was also agreed with the EU that the plans had to be ratified by the various Parliaments.  The plans weren't ratified therefore it seems logical that the two teams need to come back with another plan. Note I said 2. The EU set the time lines so lets not go blaming the UK because the date is closing in.
		
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But we all knew full well that the plan wasn't acceptable to the EU. They, like we, set Red Lines. Formulating plans that fundamentally cross those red lines is just time wasting (intentional). 
Why did the EU set the timelines?


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Surely the reason it is being â€œnegotiatedâ€ (because negotiations require compromise which we have established doesnâ€™t exist) is because the EU didnâ€™t have a plan in place to accommodate countries leaving? Take out a mortgage or a loan and the settlement terms and penalty clauses are all there. Not with the EU, who can then move the goalposts as it suits them. If it were any net beneficiaries leaving there wouldnâ€™t be half the fuss from them.
		
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Sorry, but that's wrong! 

Article 50 IS that plan! Clause 2 or Article 50 requires 'the Union shall negotiate...'

See here https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012M050


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Anyway, I hope no one minds if I take my leave for a few days. It's quite tiring in front of the firing squad ðŸ˜‰  I've said my piece and genuinely enjoyed the debate, but, like a one legged monkey, we're just going round in circles now.
Catch you in a few days ðŸ‘


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## Old Skier (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Why did the EU set the timelines?
		
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Possibly to try and control the outcome, you'll need to ask them.

As there are red lines on both sides then perhaps a more sensible approach would be to agree on what they agree on (which has happened in a number of cases but doesn't seem to warrant much coverage in the media) and then argue about the trade and other red lines when, because of the rules laid down by the EU, cannot be discussed until after the end of March.


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## Old Skier (Feb 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Sorry, but that's wrong!

Article 50 IS that plan! Clause 2 or Article 50 requires 'the Union shall negotiate...'

See here https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012M050

Click to expand...

Like most plans, it falls apart when first contact with the enemy is made - no plan for what happens when stalemate occurs in the negotiations.


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## Hobbit (Feb 7, 2019)

Interesting piece in The Irish Times today, "Irish and EU must stop ridiculing border technology." The piece is evenly balanced and also recognises that implementing the technology can't happen at the flick of a switch. It also states that the EU is already in the process of implementing a technical solution on all the EU borders by 2025.

Nice to see a reasoned piece that criticises all sides, including the UK.

EDIT: So the EU are implementing a technological solution for cross border trade that they have repeatedly said isn't possible. 

Nice piece in a Norwegian paper about the difficulties of stopping small scale smuggling. Very much akin to the old days of Calais trips in the late 90's and filling up your car with beer, wine and cigs, a lot of which was for 'friends.'


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Sorry, but that's wrong!

Article 50 IS that plan! Clause 2 or Article 50 requires 'the Union shall negotiate...'

See here https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012M050

Click to expand...

They did negotiate and both sides agreed a plan.
After they had agreed the plan our Government decided to change it.


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## Hobbit (Feb 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They did negotiate and both sides agreed a plan.
After they had agreed the plan our Government decided to change it.
		
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Both sides took the plan they'd agreed on to their respective parliaments for approval/ratification. The meeting of EU ministers took 40 mins to agree it, the UK parliament said no.

Nowt like facts for a bit of clarity.


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Like most plans, it falls apart when first contact with the enemy is made - *no plan for what happens when stalemate occurs in the negotiations.*

Click to expand...

Er...Wrong!

Clause 3 covers that possibility (likelihood!).

Btw. 'Enemy'? Not a great term for 'the largest trading bloc in the world' - whose ongoing trade and many other relationships is/are very important the the economic welfare of UK!


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Both sides took the plan they'd agreed on to their respective parliaments for approval/ratification. The meeting of EU ministers took 40 mins to agree it, the UK parliament said no.

Nowt like facts for a bit of clarity.
		
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That is an area where May deserves every bit of criticism she gets. She was told for months before that the agreement would not get through parliament. Ridiculous that she kept ignoring all of the advice, all of the comments and brought back an agreement guaranteed to fail. That wasted time, made her look foolish, weakened the UK position. Totally inept.


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## Hobbit (Feb 7, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is an area where May deserves every bit of criticism she gets. She was told for months before that the agreement would not get through parliament. Ridiculous that she kept ignoring all of the advice, all of the comments and brought back an agreement guaranteed to fail. That wasted time, made her look foolish, weakened the UK position. Totally inept.
		
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I wonder how much of the plan was agreed and how much was a 'take it or leave it' from the EU?

The reason I look at the whole thing very sceptically is some of the clauses in the agreement are appalling. For example, I was having another read of some of it yesterday. If the EU and the UK can't agree on something in, say, 5 years time it can be taken to an international court for adjudication. Sounds fair. However, the EU doesn't have to abide by that adjudication. The EU can then refer it to the ECJ for adjudication.

There's also a clause in there that says the EU have the right to impose new laws on the UK for 4 years after the transition has taken place.

Wow! 

As much as I'm not keen on Gina Miller, she nailed it on Question Time last week. Its an appalling deal.


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## Old Skier (Feb 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Wrong!

Clause 3 covers that possibility (likelihood!).

Btw. 'Enemy'? Not a great term for 'the largest trading bloc in the world' - whose ongoing trade and many other relationships is/are very important the the economic welfare of UK!
		
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Stop being so grumpy, I think you know the context it was meant in, sorry I forgot an emoji.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 7, 2019)

If clauses like that are in it then she should have left it, much earlier as well. The whole Irish issue is masking clauses like those above. It has become a major distraction with all of the focus being on that single issue. 'Solve Ireland and everything sails through'. May's legacy is not going to be good, whatever the outcome.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Anyway, I hope no one minds if I take my leave for a few days. It's quite tiring in front of the firing squad ðŸ˜‰  I've said my piece and genuinely enjoyed the debate, but, like a one legged monkey, were just going round in circles now. 
Catch you in a few days ðŸ‘
		
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Good analogy. 
Bit like May being a one armed paper hanger or trying to get the EU to negotiate being very much like nailing jelly to the ceiling.


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2019)

Old Skier said:



*Stop being so grumpy*, I think you know the context it was meant in, sorry I forgot an emoji.
		
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## spongebob59 (Feb 7, 2019)

Saw this quote on twitter :

The Tory Brexit divide is like a porcelain vase with a massive crack that's been there for decades, yet somehow it's still standing. The Labour Brexit divide is a porcelain vase that has been immaculately pristine since the late 1980s, but which is about to be thrown at the wall


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## jp5 (Feb 7, 2019)

One ex-UKIP politician no longer seems quite so happy about us taking back all this control....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093061819541979136


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## oxymoron (Feb 7, 2019)

jp5 said:



			One ex-UKIP politician no longer seems quite so happy about us taking back all this control....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093061819541979136

Click to expand...

Its a comment about  phone company's as far as i can see ,,,,, where does taking back control come in to it ?


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## IanM (Feb 7, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Its a comment about  phone company's as far as i can see ,,,,, where does taking back control come in to it ?
		
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Vodafone havent confirmed a policy= Brexit is bad ........... ok.... can I have a 2nd Refrendum now so change my mind!


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## drdel (Feb 7, 2019)

Meanwhile France has got the hump with Italy and withdrawn its ambassador - the EU elections look like being interesting.


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## IanM (Feb 7, 2019)

Apparently Macron doesnt approve of "populism."   Maybe thats why he's making himself so unpopular. 

The cracks are getting bigger.   How we laughed.  Forza Italia!!!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2019)

jp5 said:



			One ex-UKIP politician no longer seems quite so happy about us taking back all this control....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1093061819541979136

Click to expand...

That really is a sad post.


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## drdel (Feb 7, 2019)

I'm curious about Varadkar's tactics.

I can see that he wants to cosy up to Juncker et al in the hope of getting more cash or will it be loans which are already pretty high. However it is his citizens and small businesses that will feel the brunt of a dislocation with the UK. How does he propose to get this cash (when or if it ever comes) to these families/small enterprises quickly. The UK has always played a pretty straight back with the Republic so I'd have thought he'd want to play a careful long game. If the UK starts to adjust corporation tax and import duties to become attractive to RoW I could see Ireland being one of the first casualties. Does he want to keep operating under the UK's defence capabilities?

Perhaps he's just in it for himself and wants to get on the EU gravy train by being a good boy. I've a feeling he may be backing the wrong horse (mind you the racing has stopped at the moment because of equine flu) especially if the EU changes it base language from English as Juncker has wanted for some years he may feel an outsider / outpost.


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## Hobbit (Feb 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm curious about Varadkar's tactics.

I can see that he wants to cosy up to Juncker et al in the hope of getting more cash or will it be loans which are already pretty high. However it is his citizens and small businesses that will feel the brunt of a dislocation with the UK. How does he propose to get this cash (when or if it ever comes) to these families/small enterprises quickly. The UK has always played a pretty straight back with the Republic so I'd have thought he'd want to play a careful long game. If the UK starts to adjust corporation tax and import duties to become attractive to RoW I could see Ireland being one of the first casualties. Does he want to keep operating under the UK's defence capabilities?

Perhaps he's just in it for himself and wants to get on the EU gravy train by being a good boy. I've a feeling he may be backing the wrong horse (mind you the racing has stopped at the moment because of equine flu) especially if the EU changes it base language from English as Juncker has wanted for some years he may feel an outsider / outpost.
		
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I'd guess its about trade. Ireland's biggest trading partner is the UK. He won't want Irish goods to face tariffs/checks, including checks on goods travelling by road through the Uk to the EU.

As for his popularity at home; I'm not sure he's that popular. Maybe he's lining himself up for his next job as EU commissioner.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 7, 2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rs-terms-for-backing-may-on-brexit?CMP=twt_gu


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm curious about Varadkar's tactics.

I can see that he wants to cosy up to Juncker et al in the hope of getting more cash or will it be loans which are already pretty high. However it is his citizens and small businesses that will feel the brunt of a dislocation with the UK. How does he propose to get this cash (when or if it ever comes) to these families/small enterprises quickly. The UK has always played a pretty straight back with the Republic so I'd have thought he'd want to play a careful long game. If the UK starts to adjust corporation tax and import duties to become attractive to RoW I could see Ireland being one of the first casualties. Does he want to keep operating under the UK's defence capabilities?

*Perhaps he's just in it for himself and wants to get on the EU gravy train by being a good boy*. I've a feeling he may be backing the wrong horse (mind you the racing has stopped at the moment because of equine flu) especially if the EU changes it base language from English as Juncker has wanted for some years he may feel an outsider / outpost.
		
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Or maybe he just doesn't want a return to the troubles on his border. Weirdly enough, despite the some of the right wing press looking for scapegoats when the land of milk and honey they promised is appearing harder to achieve than they said it would and honing on him, there are some politicians that are occasionally in it for the good of their nation and not just how they can line up their next job.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rs-terms-for-backing-may-on-brexit?CMP=twt_gu

Click to expand...

So its his customs union that he can't explain, Single market which is also vague,  workers rights aligned.  No mention of free movement which you would imagine came part and parcel with the above.

So he is suggesting we leave but stay in then.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Or maybe he just doesn't want a return to the troubles on his border. Weirdly enough, despite the some of the right wing press looking for scapegoats when the land of milk and honey they promised is appearing harder to achieve than they said it would and honing on him, there are some politicians that are occasionally in it for the good of their nation and not just how they can line up their next job.
		
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Do you think anyone in our government wants a return to troubles on his or our border. Any return of terrorism will be for the terrorists political agenda, not the UK or ROI.  

You really need to give up on the "Land of milk and honey"  hacknied slight, it can just as easily be levelled at the EUs federal ambitions but sounds like a desperate crutch to prop a poor argument.


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## Old Skier (Feb 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So its his customs union that he can't explain, Single market which is also vague,  workers rights aligned.  No mention of free movement which you would imagine came part and parcel with the above.

So he is suggesting we leave but stay in then.
		
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He's also taken the EU negotiation method, take it and Labour will support it, anything else not supported, so back to square one right across the board.


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

Kate Hoey seems to think that Varadkarâ€™s tactics are aimed at trying to bring a one Ireland situation closer.


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

Forget all this. Does anyone know if Bluewolf executed his plan and went home from work? ðŸ˜€


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## Old Skier (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Forget all this. Does anyone know if Bluewolf executed his plan and went home from work? ðŸ˜€
		
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Hopefully he's not still on the step, the weathers not great so I hope a coat was somewhere in the plan


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## drdel (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Forget all this. Does anyone know if Bluewolf executed his plan and went home from work? ðŸ˜€
		
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He's in negotiations on his withdrawl with Blue Ridinghood.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Forget all this. Does anyone know if Bluewolf executed his plan and went home from work? ðŸ˜€
		
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No, I couldn't agree on a remuneration package for the day, so I threw a telly through the window, told my German boss that he should be grateful that he's allowed in the country as we won 2 world wars and one World Cup. Upset all our future customers by trying to appease a colleague who's only interested in his redundancy package. Then, in a fit of complete lack of self awareness, I tried to negotiate a pay rise before being sacked and losing my house. 

Still, it'll all be better in 20 years eh? ðŸ˜‰


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## Fade and Die (Feb 7, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Kate Hoey seems to think that Varadkarâ€™s tactics are aimed at trying to bring a one Ireland situation closer.
		
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I agree, also the increased use of the term â€œthe island of Ireland.â€ Its all pushing for a United ireland.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No, I couldn't agree on a remuneration package for the day, so I threw a telly through the window, told my German boss that he should be grateful that he's allowed in the country as we won 2 world wars and one World Cup. Upset all our future customers by trying to appease a colleague who's only interested in his redundancy package. Then, in a fit of complete lack of self awareness, I tried to negotiate a pay rise before being sacked and losing my house.

Still, it'll all be better in 20 years eh? ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

I think you might be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. ðŸ¤”


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## spongebob59 (Feb 7, 2019)

_Dear Prime Minister,
Thank you for taking the time to meet last week to discuss the Brexit negotiation and our alternative approaches to finding a deal that can command support in Parliament and be negotiated with the EU.
There is, as was demonstrated last week, a clear majority in Parliament that no deal must now be taken off the table and that there can be no return to a hard border in Northern Ireland in any circumstance.
We recognise that your priority is now to seek legally binding changes to the backstop arrangements contained within the Withdrawal Agreement, as we discussed when we met.
However, without changes to your negotiating red lines, we do not believe that simply seeking modifications to the existing backstop terms is a credible or sufficient response either to the scale of your defeat last month in Parliament, or the need for a deal with the EU that can bring the country together and protect jobs. 
As you have said many times before, the EU has been clear that any withdrawal agreement would need to include a backstop to guarantee no return to a hard border on the island of Ireland.
Labour has long argued that the Government should change its negotiating red lines and seek significant changes to the Political Declaration to provide clarity on our future relationship and deliver a closer economic relationship with the EU. That would also ensure that any backstop would be far less likely to be invoked.
The changes we would need to see include:_

_A permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union. This would include alignment with the union customs code, a common external tariff and an agreement on commercial policy that includes a UK say on future EU trade deals. We believe that a customs union is necessary to deliver the frictionless trade that our businesses, workers and consumers need, and is the only viable way to ensure there is no hard border on the island of Ireland. As you are aware, a customs union is supported by most businesses and trade unions._
_Close alignment with the Single Market. This should be underpinned by shared institutions and obligations, with clear arrangements for dispute resolution._
_Dynamic alignment on rights and protections so that UK standards keep pace with evolving standards across Europe as a minimum, allowing the UK to lead the way. _
_Clear commitments on participation in EU agencies and funding programmes, including in areas such as the environment, education, and industrial regulation._
_Unambiguous agreements on the detail of future security arrangements, including access to the European Arrest Warrant and vital shared databases._
_We believe these negotiating objectives need to be enshrined in law before the UK leaves the EU to provide certainty for businesses and a clear framework for our future relationship.
We recognise that any negotiation with the EU will require flexibility and compromise. Our first priority must be a deal that is best for jobs, living standards, our communities, in the context of increased and more equitable investment across all regions and nations of the UK. That approach should guide how alignment with EU regulations is to be maintained in future, as well discussions on dispute resolution, the role of the ECJ, and competition and migration rules.
EU leaders have been clear that such changes to the Political Declaration and a closer relationship are possible if such a request is made by the UK government and if the current red lines change. We believe that a close economic relationship along these lines would make it far less likely that any backstop arrangements would ever be needed.
The Governmentâ€™s failure to secure a deal that can command the support of Parliament means time has run out for the necessary preparation and for legislation to be finalised. Following last weekâ€™s rejection by the House of Commons of â€˜no dealâ€™, all necessary steps must be taken to avoid such an outcome.
My colleagues and I look forward to discussing these proposals with you further, in the constructive manner in which they are intended, with the aim of securing a sensible agreement that can win the support of parliament and bring the country together.
Yours sincerely,
Jeremy Corbyn MP
Leader of the Opposition_


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## spongebob59 (Feb 7, 2019)

As Theresa May heads back to Brussels to find out if thereâ€™s a special place in hell for her too, it turns out that she has a deal with the devil to consider. Jeremy Corbyn has dramatically come off the fence overnight and given May five new Brexit demands as the price for backing her deal. Unlike the deliberately nebulous and unfulfillable (and unrememberable) six Brexit tests, these are serious suggestions which the Government could conceivably meet. _But at what costâ€¦_
The five demands would create a Brexit essentially along the lines of â€˜Norway Plusâ€™ â€“ staying in the single market and customs union. The first is predictably the demand for a _â€œpermanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs unionâ€ _including the Common External Tariff and an _â€œagreement on commercial policy that includes a UK say on future EU trade dealsâ€_. This is pure fantasy â€“ the UK will end up like Turkey whose market access is bartered away by the EU in trade deals without Turkey getting reciprocal access in return. _The worst possible outcome from Brexitâ€¦_
Corbyn also calls for _â€œclose alignment with the Single Marketâ€_ which is _â€œunderpinned by shared institutions and obligationsâ€_ as well as _â€œdynamic alignment on rights and protectionsâ€_. So the UK remains part of the Single Market institutions and has to continue adopting new EU laws. Corbyn laughably claims this will _â€œallow the UK to lead the wayâ€ _â€“ the reality will be the complete opposite. _Brussels will continue to fax over new laws and the UK will have to adopt them all with no sayâ€¦_
The damage May would do to her own position by doing a deal with Corbyn which sells out on all her key Brexit pledges would be irreparable, but given her private opposition to no deal, she may feel that she has no choice as March 29th approaches. There is an argument that since these commitments would be in the non-binding political declaration on the future relationship, a future leader could come in and reverse them provided there is not the looming threat of a permanent backstop, this would undoubtedly be a highly fraught exercise.
_This truly is a Faustian pact â€“_ _May would finally get a deal through but condemn herself to eternal damnation in the eyes of her supportersâ€¦_


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No, I couldn't agree on a remuneration package for the day, so I threw a telly through the window, told my German boss that he should be grateful that he's allowed in the country as we won 2 world wars and one World Cup. Upset all our future customers by trying to appease a colleague who's only interested in his redundancy package. Then, in a fit of complete lack of self awareness, I tried to negotiate a pay rise before being sacked and losing my house. 

Still, it'll all be better in 20 years eh? ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

Calm down, I've had worse days.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I think you might be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. ðŸ¤”
		
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And I fear you may be experiencing the effects of Sociophobia... ðŸ‘


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## Foxholer (Feb 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So its his customs union that he can't explain, Single market which is also vague,  workers rights aligned.  No mention of free movement which you would imagine came part and parcel with the above.

So he is suggesting we leave but stay in then.
		
Click to expand...

Seems to me he's wanting something that's 'Good for UK'! But I don't believe that, as written, it will be acceptable to anyone.

Freedom of Movement of People is one of the 4 Pillars of the Single Market. Unless that 'Freedom' is dropped from any deal, then I'm certain it would be unacceptable to the UK (team). If it is dropped, I'm certain that it would be unacceptable to the EU (team)! So an impasse there!

The issue of Bank Passporting needs to be clarified, but quite likely comes under the Single Market Freedom of Movement of Finance. However, the UK would need to be added to the list of those 'automatically' allowed - current (only) any EU or EEA member. Members of EEA also grant Freedom of Movement of People, so simply joining EEA would not solve UK's 'problem' about that.

Workers rights - all good as far as I'm concerned, though that also brings the ECJ back into the equation. I believe there are ways around that issue. Common Standards etc are a good (actually great) thing imo.

Overall though, I think it's fairly astute politics! He's changed from being 'anti' to being 'positive'. And May is likely to actually be wanting something along rather similar lines - though she has, understandably, kept quiet about it. If she now actually negotiates along Corbyn's lines, she looks even weaker than currently. If she doesn't (though adding adjustments to cover the deficiencies of the Corbyn 'demands') she's not really achieving anything! 

However, I think the EU would/will remain intransigent! So the impasse will remain! It'll be down to the wire, and, almost certainly, beyond imo.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And I fear you may be experiencing the effects of Sociophobia... ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Nah Iâ€™m very social. Now since taking your leave for a few days  from this thread this morning you have returned twice already... are you suffering from Columbo syndrome?


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 7, 2019)

It seems strange that the EU are saying that it is not possible to re-open negotiations on the Withdrawal Agreement while at the same time Donald Tusk is saying that maybe Corbyn's plan "could be a way out of the current impasse". But Corbyn's plan would require negotiations on the Withdrawal Agreement to be re-opened. So it seems that the Withdrawal Agreement can be renegotiated as long as it is in favour of what the EU wants.


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## Mudball (Feb 7, 2019)

here is an interesting interview of  Lord Michael Heseltine on Brexit...  He may not be on everyones Christmas Card list, but makes some good points.






Cant wait for the usual suspects to come around and say he is just another rich fella talking down this country..


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			here is an interesting interview of  Lord Michael Heseltine on Brexit...  He may not be on everyones Christmas Card list, but makes some good points.






Cant wait for the usual suspects to come around and say he is just another rich fella talking down this country..
		
Click to expand...

Didnt know I was a suspect but Hey Ho if thats your way of describing a forum member then the worlds your oyster.

Are you aware of how much Hezzer gets in EU farming subsidies?


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			here is an interesting interview of  Lord Michael Heseltine on Brexit...  He may not be on everyones Christmas Card list, but makes some good points.






Cant wait for the usual suspects to come around and say he is just another rich fella talking down this country..
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, well he would say that. He's just another rich fella talking down this country.


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## Old Skier (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No, I couldn't agree on a remuneration package for the day, so I threw a telly through the window, told my German boss that he should be grateful that he's allowed in the country as we won 2 world wars and one World Cup. Upset all our future customers by trying to appease a colleague who's only interested in his redundancy package. Then, in a fit of complete lack of self awareness, I tried to negotiate a pay rise before being sacked and losing my house.

Still, it'll all be better in 20 years eh? ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

That's the spirit.


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## bluewolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Nah Iâ€™m very social. Now since taking your leave for a few days  from this thread this morning you have returned twice already... are you suffering from Columbo syndrome? 







Click to expand...

No, but it is rude not to reply to a direct question. So I'm happy to do that. I'm avoiding making more comments on the current state of Brexit as I'm off tomorrow, the golf course is calling, followed by a nice meal with some friends. I have a rather nice bottle of red in the kitchen, ready to be enjoyed whilst listening to some great music. So as you can see, I'm just a bit too busy to keep responding to the usual posters. 
But don't worry, it'll be Monday soon enough ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‰


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## Sweep (Feb 7, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No, I couldn't agree on a remuneration package for the day, so I threw a telly through the window, told my German boss that he should be grateful that he's allowed in the country as we won 2 world wars and one World Cup. Upset all our future customers by trying to appease a colleague who's only interested in his redundancy package. Then, in a fit of complete lack of self awareness, I tried to negotiate a pay rise before being sacked and losing my house.

Still, it'll all be better in 20 years eh? ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

I told you it would have been easier to just leave. ðŸ˜€


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## spongebob59 (Feb 8, 2019)

Lets hope this doesn't catch on 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...essor-invites-jacob-rees-mogg-to-naked-debate


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## woofers (Feb 8, 2019)

So now the â€œpeace processâ€ is at risk? What is about leaving the EU that makes two religious factions want to start fighting each other again ? It appears to be a very fragile â€œpeaceâ€.

The NI province seems to cause a disproportionate amount of problems, i.e. the â€œpeace processâ€, a soft / hard border, no internal government, political and religious factions almost at extremes. 

Wouldnâ€™t the whole Brexit business be pretty much signed and delivered if NI just didnâ€™t exist....so, on the basis that NI voted to remain in the EU, how about the Republic and NI merge ? 
Reunification referendum next please.


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## Old Skier (Feb 8, 2019)

I think you'll find there is still a large part of the population still wanting to stay under the umbrella of the UK.

Anyone think the Brexit shambles has anything to do with the so called peace process is living in another dimension.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 8, 2019)

woofers said:



			So now the â€œpeace processâ€ is at risk? What is about leaving the EU that makes two religious factions want to start fighting each other again ? It appears to be a very fragile â€œpeaceâ€.

The NI province seems to cause a disproportionate amount of problems, i.e. the â€œpeace processâ€, a soft / hard border, no internal government, political and religious factions almost at extremes.

Wouldnâ€™t the whole Brexit business be pretty much signed and delivered if NI just didnâ€™t exist....so, on the basis that NI voted to remain in the EU, how about the Republic and NI merge ?
Reunification referendum next please.
		
Click to expand...

Really good idea showing an excellent grasp of Irish history there.  As a proud Englishman, whilst we are at it we could maybe get rid of Scotland?  As lets face it, apart from Islay single malt whisky and the odd half decent golf course, what's the point?  And seeing as we've got rid of N Ireland and Scotland then don't see much point on holding onto Wales as well.  I mean yes Rhossili Bay is lovely and Tom Jones has a nice voice but do they offer much else?  Then we would have taken back control, got rid of the baggage and can look forward to a brave new future of wall to wall Greggs and Poundlands.  And blue passports.


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## Sweep (Feb 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Really good idea showing an excellent grasp of Irish history there.  As a proud Englishman, whilst we are at it we could maybe get rid of Scotland?  As lets face it, apart from Islay single malt whisky and the odd half decent golf course, what's the point?  And seeing as we've got rid of N Ireland and Scotland then don't see much point on holding onto Wales as well.  I mean yes Rhossili Bay is lovely and Tom Jones has a nice voice but do they offer much else?  Then we would have taken back control, got rid of the baggage and can look forward to a brave new future of wall to wall Greggs and Poundlands.  And blue passports.
		
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Interesting scenario HK and I know you are being sarcastic, but if the Scottish Independence Referendum has gone the other way, the UK (without Scotland) leaving the EU might well have happened and the vote to leave would have enjoyed a bigger majority.


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## User62651 (Feb 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I think you'll find there is still a large part of the population still wanting to stay under the umbrella of the UK.

*Anyone think the Brexit shambles has anything to do with the so called peace process is living in another dimension.*

Click to expand...

Strong statement.
So are you saying the peace process is just being used as a bargaining or stalling tool by remainers and the EU/Eire to frustrate Brexit? That's depite those with nothing to gain from Brexit but had years of influential invovlement with the Good Friday Agreement like Americans Bill Clinton or George Mitchell, saying the issues are linked?


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## woofers (Feb 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Really good idea showing an excellent grasp of Irish history there.  As a proud Englishman, whilst we are at it we could maybe get rid of Scotland?  As lets face it, apart from Islay single malt whisky and the odd half decent golf course, what's the point?  And seeing as we've got rid of N Ireland and Scotland then don't see much point on holding onto Wales as well.  I mean yes Rhossili Bay is lovely and Tom Jones has a nice voice but do they offer much else?  Then we would have taken back control, got rid of the baggage and can look forward to a brave new future of wall to wall Greggs and Poundlands.  And blue passports.
		
Click to expand...

Very good, youâ€™re not a politician are you by any chance? Itâ€™s just that your reply doesnâ€™t address any of the points in the original post, you have totally ignored them and diverted the subject onto what you want to talk about. And in a cheap sarcastic way.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Really good idea showing an excellent grasp of Irish history there.  As a proud Englishman, whilst we are at it we could maybe get rid of Scotland?  As lets face it, apart from Islay single malt whisky and the odd half decent golf course, what's the point?  And seeing as we've got rid of N Ireland and Scotland then don't see much point on holding onto Wales as well.  I mean yes Rhossili Bay is lovely and Tom Jones has a nice voice but do they offer much else?  Then we would have taken back control, got rid of the baggage and can look forward to a brave new future of wall to wall Greggs and Poundlands.  And blue passports.
		
Click to expand...

Why do you have to be such a patronising, sarcastic prig? Are you like this with people you deal with face to face, You have told us you are the chair of school Goveners, do you speak to pupils parents like this or is it reserved for this place?


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## IanM (Feb 8, 2019)

Maybe he's messing about.... if you want worse, much worse come to my golf club (in Wales) this weekend wearing an England shirt!   

Loving the Hesletine reference above... his famous quote - "I look foward to the day when Westminster is merely a minor chamber of the EU."  At least he's honest.   A traitorous wally, but an honest one... and he isnt fibbing about lettuces!


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## Old Skier (Feb 8, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Strong statement.
So are you saying the peace process is just being used as a bargaining or stalling tool by remainers and the EU/Eire to frustrate Brexit? That's depite those with nothing to gain from Brexit but had years of influential invovlement with the Good Friday Agreement like Americans Bill Clinton or George Mitchell, saying the issues are linked?
		
Click to expand...

Are you saying that if we remain in the EU there will be no further terrorist incidents in NI. Seeing has they have been a nearly a weekly occurrence since the Good Friday Agreement I in my opinion obviously cannot see where Brexit comes into this and as it's a politie forum I'll reserve any comment on the great Bill Clinton, George Mitchell and American involvement in NI.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*Why do you have to be such a patronising, sarcastic prig*? Are you like this with people you deal with face to face, You have told us you are the chair of school Goveners, do you speak to pupils parents like this or is it reserved for this place?
		
Click to expand...

Cause it winds up people who take things way too seriously?


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## spongebob59 (Feb 8, 2019)

Farage  back in the game .

Twitter reporting new brexit party forming if  A50 delayed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 8, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Interesting scenario HK and I know you are being sarcastic, but if the Scottish Independence Referendum has gone the other way, the UK (without Scotland) leaving the EU might well have happened and the vote to leave would have enjoyed a bigger majority.
		
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Naw an independent Scotland in the EU would have blocked it for the banter.


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## Old Skier (Feb 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Naw an independent Scotland in the EU would have blocked it for the banter.

Click to expand...

Now there's an oxymoron if ever there was one. Independence and EU in the same breath


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## bluewolf (Feb 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Farage  back in the game .

Twitter reporting new brexit party forming if  A50 delayed.
		
Click to expand...

They might struggle for funding if the new EU tax legislation has to be implemented. 

(Sorry, couldn't resist posting. I'm going back to my quiet Weekend now ðŸ˜‚)


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you have to be such a patronising, sarcastic prig? Are you like this with people you deal with face to face. <punctuation corrected > You have told us you are the chair of school Governors <sp and punctuation corrected >. Do you speak to pupils parents like this or is it reserved for this place?
		
Click to expand...

Wow! I hope you feel better after posting that! The view (by others) could apply to so many - no doubt including you and me! But no way should it actually appear in a post!

However, (mis)interpreting HK's reply somewhat.... It's far better to simply laugh at those who sink to that level of 'debate' as they surely believe their 'argument' wasn't convincing in itself!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Farage  back in the game .

Twitter reporting new brexit party forming if  A50 delayed.
		
Click to expand...

Great news for the remainers.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2019)

A


Hacker Khan said:



			Cause it winds up people who take things way too seriously?
		
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So you take pleasure in winding people up with your patronising, sarcastic manner,. So does Farage and Trump. Choose your own bedfellows.


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## Hobbit (Feb 8, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			They might struggle for funding if the new EU tax legislation has to be implemented.

(Sorry, couldn't resist posting. I'm going back to my quiet Weekend now ðŸ˜‚)
		
Click to expand...

Behave and go and have a beer! 

I'm spending the evening on the roof with a Rioja and my telescope.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Lets hope this doesn't catch on 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...essor-invites-jacob-rees-mogg-to-naked-debate

Click to expand...

We all know that secretly you want to see Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn having a naked debate. Or Sajid Javid and Diane Abbott arguing in the buff. *


*Apologies if the idea of the above has put anyone off their tea. I was a little bit sick in my mouth just typing it.


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## bluewolf (Feb 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Behave and go and have a beer! 

I'm spending the evening on the roof with a Rioja and my telescope.
		
Click to expand...

If you spot my swing could you let me know. It seems to have flown away today ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Wow! I hope you feel better after posting that! The view (by others) could apply to so many - no doubt including you and me! But no way should it actually appear in a post!

However, (mis)interpreting HK's reply somewhat.... It's far better to simply laugh at those who sink to that level of 'debate' as they surely believe their 'argument' wasn't convincing in itself!
		
Click to expand...

Fair comment but leave out the punctuation police please ðŸ™„


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Wow! I hope you feel better after posting that! The view (by others) could apply to so many - no doubt including you and me! But no way should it actually appear in a post!

However, (mis)interpreting HK's reply somewhat.... It's far better to simply laugh at those who sink to that level of 'debate' as they surely believe their 'argument' wasn't convincing in itself!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry not been on this thread for a while, but the sight of you 2 offering a critique of othersâ€™ posting style was one irony too many ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
Anyway back to your circular never ending arguments. ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ has anyone actually had their mind changed by this thread? Maybe thatâ€™s the issue with Brexit in microcosm??ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜±


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## Old Skier (Feb 8, 2019)

Gone from Leaver to - why haven't we left


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Gone from Leaver to - why haven't we left 

Click to expand...

ðŸ‘ Iâ€™ve gone from a remainer to â€˜god Iâ€™m bored of thisâ€™!!! And onto general indifference.  Just wake me up when itâ€™s over ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2019)

therod said:





Foxholer said:



			...The view (by others) could apply to so many *- no doubt including you and me!* ...
		
Click to expand...

Sorry not been on this thread for a while, but the sight of you 2 offering a critique of othersâ€™ posting style was one irony too many ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
...
		
Click to expand...

Did you not notice the bold bit?


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Did you not notice the bold bit?
		
Click to expand...

I did, thanks ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2019)

therod said:



			ðŸ‘ Iâ€™ve gone from a remainer to â€˜god Iâ€™m bored of thisâ€™!!! And onto general indifference.  Just wake me up when itâ€™s over ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

Over ðŸ˜§


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## Foxholer (Feb 8, 2019)

therod said:



			...
Anyway back to your circular never ending arguments. ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ has anyone actually had their mind changed by this thread? Maybe thatâ€™s the issue with Brexit in microcosm??ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜±
		
Click to expand...

Not by this thread. However, I have moved somewhat as a result of other/subsequent events.

Certainly, plenty of additional info has been provided via the thread. Just important to disregard any actual 'bias' of the poster (again, myself included!) and make decisions according to individual 'priorities'!


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ove
Over ðŸ˜§
		
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Maybe 20 years should do??


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## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2019)

therod said:



			Maybe 20 years should do??
		
Click to expand...

Very optimistic ðŸ˜‰


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## User20205 (Feb 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Not by this thread. However, I have moved somewhat as a result of other/subsequent events.

Certainly, plenty of additional info has been provided via the thread. Just important to disregard any actual 'bias' of the poster (again, myself included!) and make decisions according to individual 'priorities'!
		
Click to expand...

All I see on this thread & in general is opinion becoming more entrenched. Maybe thatâ€™s the problem, nobody really wants to find a way through this which may envolve some degree of compromise. If I was to be serious, I have moved position slightly. I voted remain because I have known no different & my vote was for the status quo.....but I believe in the democratic process & accept the result of the referendum. I also have listened to some of the language coming from the EU and have been disappointed. Iâ€™m not quite a brexiteer, but now have sympathies


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 9, 2019)

therod said:



			Sorry not been on this thread for a while, but the sight of you 2 offering a critique of othersâ€™ posting style was one irony too many ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
Anyway back to your circular never ending arguments. ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ has anyone actually had their mind changed by this thread? Maybe thatâ€™s the issue with Brexit in microcosm??ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜±
		
Click to expand...

I have. I have gone from thinking that perhaps we could survive Brexit to knowing that it will be dreadful.

Just noticed that Seabourne [the ferry company with no ferries] has just had it's contract withdrawn.
Failing Grayling strikes again.


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## Old Skier (Feb 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have. I have gone from thinking that perhaps we could survive Brexit to knowing that it will be dreadful.
		
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I presume asking for actual proof of your statement is pointless or is that just one of your trolling posts.


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I presume asking for actual proof of your statement is pointless or is that just one of your trolling posts.
		
Click to expand...

Ok, I suspect it'll be dreadful, but I can't actually prove it. I suspect that it'll start poorly, then we'll get used to it, then it'll just keep getting slightly worse Year on year as investment drops. 
Unless those German car manufacturers get their arse in gear and tell the EU to offer us a better deal, obviously ðŸ˜‰


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## MegaSteve (Feb 9, 2019)

Gosh... Anyone would think the last forty years have been wonderful...

They haven't...


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Gosh... Anyone would think the last forty years have been wonderful...

They haven't...
		
Click to expand...

Did anyone actually say that?

Blaming the EU for all the ills of the World is ridiculous. I accept that there are significant issues within the EU. But there will be much bigger issues outside it. Only a child would think that everything can be perfect.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Did anyone actually say that?

Blaming the EU for all the ills of the World is ridiculous. I accept that there are significant issues within the EU. But there will be much bigger issues outside it. Only a child would think that everything can be perfect.
		
Click to expand...

The implications are that we are turning our backs on something that has been good...  It simply hasn't.... One less layer of bureaucracy, to boss us about, can only be good...


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			The implications are that we are turning our backs on something that has been good...  It simply hasn't.... One less layer of bureaucracy, to boss us about, can only be good...
		
Click to expand...

Respectfully, I'd have to disagree with the sentiment. In my opinion, we are weakening our position as a global player. We will be entering negotiations as a minority player. As evidenced by some of the demands coming from American negotiators.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Respectfully, I'd have to disagree with the sentiment. In my opinion, we are weakening our position as a global player. We will be entering negotiations as a minority player. As evidenced by some of the demands coming from American negotiators.
		
Click to expand...

The EU didn't exactly do well in trade negotiations with the USA.


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

interesting to see that the Ferry contract has been cancelled. Raised on here as a ridiculous situation, but defended quite stoutly by some.


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The EU didn't exactly do well in trade negotiations with the USA.
		
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Why exactly? Because Trump halted the negotiations?
It's quite difficult to comment on a deal that hasn't been signed and was being negotiated behind closed doors.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Did anyone actually say that?

Blaming the EU for all the ills of the World is ridiculous. I accept that there are significant issues within the EU. But there will be much bigger issues outside it. Only a child would think that everything can be perfect.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ™‹â€â™‚ï¸


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			ðŸ™‹â€â™‚ï¸
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm not sure what point you're making ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Why exactly? Because Trump halted the negotiations?
It's quite difficult to comment on a deal that hasn't been signed and was being negotiated behind closed doors.
		
Click to expand...

You were blaming the American negotiators regarding the UK.


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You were blaming the American negotiators
		
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I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying that we'll be entering negotiations as a minor player. I certainly don't expect any charity. If I was an American negotiator I'd try and gain every possible advantage.


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## Sweep (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Respectfully, I'd have to disagree with the sentiment. In my opinion, we are weakening our position as a global player. We will be entering negotiations as a minority player. As evidenced by some of the demands coming from American negotiators.
		
Click to expand...

We canâ€™t even enter negotiations as a member of the EU.


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

Sweep said:



			We canâ€™t even enter negotiations as a member of the EU.
		
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We don't need to as a member of the EU. We will need to as a non member. But you obviously know that, so not sure what your point is. 

Oh, and you may be surprised to learn that we've had negotiators camped in America for several months.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			interesting to see that the Ferry contract has been cancelled. Raised on here as a ridiculous situation, but defended quite stoutly by some.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure even Grayling's mother could have defended that deal, it was flat out embarrassing. At least they have had the sense to cancel it now.


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm not sure even Grayling's mother could have defended that deal, it was flat out embarrassing. At least they have had the sense to cancel it now.
		
Click to expand...

Some on here did. If you look back to December you'll see them.... ðŸ˜‰


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Some on here did. If you look back to December you'll see them.... ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

December could be 80 pages ago. My life isn't that empty ðŸ¤£


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			December could be 80 pages ago. My life isn't that empty ðŸ¤£
		
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Best post on this thread, and something we can all (myself definitely included) learn from ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## Stuart_C (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Some on here did. If you look back to December you'll see them.... ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

IIRC Poor journalism and sour grapes from some because somebody else "won" the contract were the response.....


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## Stuart_C (Feb 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			December could be 80 pages ago. My life isn't that empty ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

Page 166 ðŸ‘


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## woofers (Feb 9, 2019)

Sweep said:



			We canâ€™t even enter negotiations as a member of the EU.
		
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WE can't even negotiate WITH the EU..... 
So we should just walk away


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## MegaSteve (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Respectfully, I'd have to disagree with the sentiment. In my opinion, we are weakening our position as a global player. We will be entering negotiations as a minority player. As evidenced by some of the demands coming from American negotiators.
		
Click to expand...

My experience of trade negotiations are about zip... However, I'd be seeking to take advantage of being a single entity rather than merely being on the periphery of a supposedly co-operative... What's good for Germany/France isn't necessarily good for the UK...


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			My experience of trade negotiations are about zip... However, I'd be seeking to take advantage of being a single entity rather than merely being on the periphery of a supposedly co-operative... What's good for Germany/France isn't necessarily good for the UK...
		
Click to expand...

Well I watched The Star Wars Phantom Menace film so I'm virtually an expert, and being a small single entity is possibly not as good as being part of a large negotiating bloc.


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## woofers (Feb 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have. I have gone from thinking that perhaps we could survive Brexit to knowing that it will be dreadful.
		
Click to expand...

So over what period should the impact of leaving the EU be measured ?

One year, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years .....

The answer of course will be whatever suits the respective leave / remain perspective.


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2019)

woofers said:



			WE can't even negotiate WITH the EU.....
So we should just walk away
		
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While not actually advocating it...perhaps that's an argument for being a member of the EU!

Oh. And (while also not advocating it, but conversely) in just under 7 weeks, there won't be any need to 'negotiate with the EU'!

There could be a considerable amount of 'brinkmanship' about to have an effect!


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Respectfully, I'd have to disagree with the sentiment. In my opinion, we are weakening our position as a global player. We will be entering negotiations as a minority player. As evidenced by some of the demands coming from American negotiators.
		
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I think the term 'global player' has been something of an illusion in many of the areas for quite some time!

And (simply) being part of the EU, as opposed to being a separate entity, quite possibly weakens any 'global player' aspirations - certainly in terms of certain areas of trade.

<Philosophy mode> Personally, I'd sooner UK was a 'better' country than a 'global player'. Though it's all about defining what those terms really mean - and their implications! </Philosophy Mode>


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Page 166 ðŸ‘
		
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Should you not be in the pub preparing for today's match rather than trudging back through this thread ðŸ˜±ðŸ»? Blimey, 120 pages in 2 months.


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## Hobbit (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			interesting to see that the Ferry contract has been cancelled. Raised on here as a ridiculous situation, but defended quite stoutly by some.
		
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The ferry contract has been cancelled because the local labour council has pulled funding for the port. Its always worth looking at the detail before jumping in.


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## Hobbit (Feb 9, 2019)

Sweep said:



			We canâ€™t even enter negotiations as a member of the EU.
		
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The UK can have discussions but can't sign anything.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, I'm not sure what point you're making ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸
		
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Didnt come out too well.  Meant to be a pic of a truculent child.


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## Stuart_C (Feb 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The ferry contract has been cancelled because the local labour council has pulled funding for the port. Its always worth looking at the detail before jumping in.
		
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Iff all else fails, blame Labour councilsðŸ˜
So it has nothing to do with the company's Irish backers then?

I thought all of this had been  carefully vetted before contract was awarded....


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## Stuart_C (Feb 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Should you not be in the pub preparing for today's match rather than trudging back through this thread ðŸ˜±ðŸ»? Blimey, 120 pages in 2 months.
		
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It only took me 30 secs to find it in my posts. 

Off the ale pretty much these days so i'll be heading up the ground about 2:15pm ðŸ‘


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The ferry contract has been cancelled because the local labour council has pulled funding for the port. Its always worth looking at the detail before jumping in.
		
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Sorry Brian, but that's just not right. Arklow pulled their backing.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying that we'll be entering negotiations as a minor player. I certainly don't expect any charity. If I was an American negotiator I'd try and gain every possible advantage.
		
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But Trump loves us and he wants a great trade deal with us, we just have to be in a position to do it.    NZ and Australia to name a few have been successful with trade deals, why do you think a country with an economy the size of the UK cant also?    Or, do not want it to?


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## Stuart_C (Feb 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*But Trump loves us and he wants a great trade deal with us*, we just have to be in a position to do it.    NZ and Australia to name a few have been successful with trade deals, why do you think a country with an economy the size of the UK cant also?    Or, do not want it to?
		
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Does he really?

I think he just wants to get his grubby mitts on our Valuable assets and he'll do whatever he can to do it. 

Vulture.


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But Trump loves us and he wants a great trade deal with us, we just have to be in a position to do it.    NZ and Australia to name a few have been successful with trade deals, why do you think a country with an economy the size of the UK cant also?    Or, do not want it to?
		
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Are you taking the pish now?


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## MegaSteve (Feb 9, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Does he really?

I think he just wants to get his grubby mitts on our Valuable assets and he'll do whatever he can to do it. 

Vulture.
		
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Well, at least that acknowledges we still have some 'valuable assets' to negotiate with... Something Brussels appears reluctant to do....


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Does he really?

I think he just wants to get his grubby mitts on our Valuable assets and he'll do whatever he can to do it.

Vulture.
		
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You are entitled to that opinion although I don't know what you have to back it up, what exactly has he done to us.  I would be much more concerned about what the EU wants to do to our Valuable assets with their grubby little mitts.


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## Stuart_C (Feb 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are entitled to that opinion although I don't know what you have to back it up, *what exactly has he done to us.*  I would be much more concerned about what the EU wants to do to our Valuable assets with their grubby little mitts.
		
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Nothing yet, but given his previous iâ€™d tread very carefully  before jumping into agreements  with him.

I donâ€™t know what the EU have got to do with my post ðŸ™„


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are entitled to that opinion although I don't know what you have to back it up, what exactly has he done to us.  I would be much more concerned about what the EU wants to do to our Valuable assets with their grubby little mitts.
		
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Google. First result.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-us-trade-deal-nhs-trump-theresa-may-alex-de-ruyter-a8390021.html?amp

2nd result. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....s-use-us-trade-talks-force-nhs-pay-drugs/amp/

There's plenty more.


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## Hobbit (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry Brian, but that's just not right. Arklow pulled their backing.
		
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The article I read was that the local council pulled their funding. Apparently they are the landlords for the port. Also in the article was the name of the company that appealed the award, and the reason they appealed. 

The company it was awarded to has never ran a ferry fleet, which I acknowledged originally, but also have many, many years of experience in global freighting. 

Was it the right award? I genuinely don't know but I have little problem with it. The appeal? Not untypical of a company that didn't win the business.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The article I read was that the local council pulled their funding. Apparently they are the landlords for the port. Also in the article was the name of the company that appealed the award, and the reason they appealed.

The company it was awarded to has never ran a ferry fleet, which I acknowledged originally, but also have many, many years of experience in global freighting.

Was it the right award? I genuinely don't know but I have little problem with it. The appeal? Not untypical of a company that didn't win the business.
		
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I believe this were the confusion over the local council position came from.

â€œEarlier this week, Thanet District Council was considering cutting its spending on the Ramsgate port, which it had been pumping money into to get it ready for ferry operations.
The council budget cuts could have prevented Ramsgate reopening as a ferry port.
The council delayed its decision on the budget cuts at the request of Mr Grayling.â€


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## Stuart_C (Feb 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I believe this were the confusion over the local council position came from.

â€œEarlier this week, Thanet District Council was considering cutting its spending on the Ramsgate port, which it had been pumping money into to get it ready for ferry operations.
The council budget cuts could have prevented Ramsgate reopening as a ferry port.
The council delayed its decision on the budget cuts at the request of Mr Grayling.â€
		
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So the  transport secretary didnâ€™t know 6 weeks ago that the council in charge of the port,who the  government appointed to use in the event of a no deal, were about to pull funding of said port?? Yeah right.....


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## Sweep (Feb 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			We don't need to as a member of the EU. We will need to as a non member. But you obviously know that, so not sure what your point is.

Oh, and you may be surprised to learn that we've had negotiators camped in America for several months.
		
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So in one post you say Brexit weakens our position as global player and in another you say we donâ€™t have to negotiate with anyone globally if we stay because we have the EU to do that for us. That doesnâ€™t sound like enhancing our position as a global player to me.


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## Sweep (Feb 9, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Nothing yet, but given his previous iâ€™d tread very carefully  before jumping into agreements  with him.

I donâ€™t know what the EU have got to do with my post ðŸ™„
		
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Of course trade agreements have their place, but they are not the be all and end all.
The UK is the biggest single investor in the United States which is the worldâ€™s largest economy. The United States is the biggest single investor in the UK. We have been doing enormous amounts of business for decades. All without a trade deal.


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2019)

Sweep said:



			...That doesnâ€™t sound like enhancing our position as a global player *to me*.
		
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And that (the bold bit) is all any political (and likely other) thread on here is about - personal opinion!


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## bluewolf (Feb 9, 2019)

Sweep said:



			So in one post you say Brexit weakens our position as global player and in another you say we donâ€™t have to negotiate with anyone globally if we stay because we have the EU to do that for us. That doesnâ€™t sound like enhancing our position as a global player to me.
		
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Are you purposefully misrepresenting the position?
When we leave we'll have to become a Global Player. We'll have to negotiate based purely on our own merits. Japan have already come out and said they're expecting a better (for them) deal with us than the one they've just signed with the EU. That's our future now. We'll be at the mercy of stronger groups.

Oh, and the EU are not negotiating for us. We're a partner. They're negotiating with us at their side.


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## Sweep (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Are you purposefully misrepresenting the position?
When we leave we'll have to become a Global Player. We'll have to negotiate based purely on our own merits. Japan have already come out and said they're expecting a better (for them) deal with us than the one they've just signed with the EU. That's our future now. We'll be at the mercy of stronger groups.

Oh, and the EU are not negotiating for us. We're a partner. They're negotiating with us at their side.
		
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So, which is it? 
Brexit will threaten our position as a global player. We canâ€™t be a global player on our own.
Or,
If we leave we will have to be a global player on our own.

You say Brexit will threaten our position as a global player, but then you say we will have to become a global player when we leave. So how can brexit threaten our position as a global player if we are not a global player yet?

I think itâ€™s you that is misrepresenting the situation.
I guess thatâ€™s the difference between leavers and remainers. Leavers have faith in the UK and believe we can do as well if not better on our own without interference from others. Leavers have little or no faith in the UK and donâ€™t believe we can be successful on our own.
Thatâ€™s a great shame.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Sweep said:



			So, which is it?
Brexit will threaten our position as a global player. We canâ€™t be a global player on our own.
Or,
If we leave we will have to be a global player on our own.

You say Brexit will threaten our position as a global player, but then you say we will have to become a global player when we leave. So how can brexit threaten our position as a global player if we are not a global player yet?

I think itâ€™s you that is misrepresenting the situation.
I guess thatâ€™s the difference between leavers and remainers. Leavers have faith in the UK and believe we can do as well if not better on our own without interference from others. Leavers have little or no faith in the UK and donâ€™t believe we can be successful on our own.
Thatâ€™s a great shame.
		
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Absolute unqualified nonsense.....

We are currently, as part of the largest trading bloc in the world, in a very strong position. Once we leave, we're going to be a much smaller player,and therefore we won't be able to get the same deals that we currently enjoy. 

And here's proof..... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/5ce60af2-2b90-11e9-a5ab-ff8ef2b976c7

And that's just Japan. What do you think America are going to do?

Now then, I've consistently provided proof of my points. All you're doing is having "faith". And that's the big problem. Brexit is like a cult.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Absolute unqualified nonsense.....

We are currently, as part of the largest trading bloc in the world, in a very strong position. Once we leave, we're going to be a much smaller player,and therefore we won't be able to get the same deals that we currently enjoy.

And here's proof..... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/5ce60af2-2b90-11e9-a5ab-ff8ef2b976c7

And that's just Japan. What do you think America are going to do?

Now then, I've consistently provided proof of my points. All you're doing is having "faith". And that's the big problem. Brexit is like a cult.
		
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Do you have shares in FT.com?


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have shares in FT.com?
		
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No, why?
I can link to several other media sources if you want. I just presumed that the Financial Times would be an acceptable reference. Who would you prefer? My previous links have been the Telegraph and the Independant. Hardly the Guardian are they?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 10, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			So the  transport secretary didnâ€™t know 6 weeks ago that the council in charge of the port,who the  government appointed to use in the event of a no deal, were about to pull funding of said port?? Yeah right.....
		
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Donâ€™t know mate, I was simply pointing out to Hobbit were his confusion may of risen from after this came out earlier in the week.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have shares in FT.com?
		
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Just realised that you may be referring to the fact that the article is behind a paywall. 

So, here's another link....

https://www.techregister.co.uk/no-deal-brexit-risks-rise-as-uk-japan-trade-talks-stall/


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Carolyn Fairbairn being fairly scathing about a No Deal Brexit on Sophy Ridge this morning.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Absolute unqualified nonsense.....

We are currently, as part of the largest trading bloc in the world, in a very strong position. Once we leave, we're going to be a much smaller player,and therefore we won't be able to get the same deals that we currently enjoy.

And here's proof..... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/5ce60af2-2b90-11e9-a5ab-ff8ef2b976c7

And that's just Japan. What do you think America are going to do?

Now then, I've consistently provided proof of my points. All you're doing is having "faith". And that's the big problem. Brexit is like a cult.
		
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OK, I can link to it now.  Bit sketchy to be described as 'Truth'  reads more as someones opinion to me.  Also, you are aware that we cannot agree any trade deals while still members of the EU or tied by the constraints of a transition period.

How did you get to know about our Cult,  it's only a small cult at the moment but we are expecting more to join, especially if Nigel accepts the nomination for  'Grand Wizard' . Exciting times ahead, what Ho!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Carolyn Fairbairn being fairly scathing about a No Deal Brexit on Sophy Ridge this morning.
		
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Well that's no surprise.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Carolyn Fairbairn being fairly scathing about a No Deal Brexit on Sophy Ridge this morning.
		
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So your telling us a spokeswomen for a pro EU organisation that receives EU funding and even said we should join the Euro is scathing about Britain leaving the EU....?

Thatâ€™s a game changer! ðŸ˜‚


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, I can link to it now.  Bit sketchy to be described as 'Truth'  reads more as someones opinion to me.  Also, you are aware that we cannot agree any trade deals while still members of the EU or tied by the constraints of a transition period.

How did you get to know about our Cult,  it's only a small cult at the moment but we are expecting more to join, especially if Nigel accepts the nomination for  'Grand Wizard' . Exciting times ahead, what Ho!
		
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So, let me get this right, evidence that we would be a 2nd class player on the world stage is presented to you. And your rebuttal is that "well that's just an opinion, and it won't affect us till after we leave anyway!" 
Of course it won't affect us till after we leave. It'll be too late to address it by then as well. 

Ok, are you happy to sign deals that are demonstrably worse than ones we currently benefit from?

Worth noting that reports are emerging that South Korea now want to re-open and renegotiate trade terms with the UK.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So your telling us a spokeswomen for a pro EU organisation that receives EU funding and even said we should join the Euro is scathing about Britain leaving the EU....?

Thatâ€™s a game changer! ðŸ˜‚
		
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She's the Director General of the CBI. I suspect that she has more knowledge of the subject than anyone on here. Still, experts eh. We're sick of them.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			She's the Directir General of the CBI. I suspect that she has more knowledge of the subject than anyone on here. Still, experts eh. We're sick of them.
		
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But sheâ€™s extremely biased. Do you not consider that before accepting it as gospel?


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			But sheâ€™s extremely biased. Do you not consider that before accepting it as gospel?
		
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Everyone who doesn't swallow your line is dismissed as biased. Do you not consider that?

She represents British Business. She wouldn't last very long if she allowed personal bias to colour her work, would she.

An opinion on her from that rabid left wing rag The Independent. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ce-philip-hammond-change-in-a8563016.html?amp


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			But sheâ€™s extremely biased. Do you not consider that before accepting it as gospel?
		
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Also, accepting what as gospel? I pointed out that she was scathing about a No Deal Brexit. What did I accept as gospel?
Maybe I should only highlight the considered musings of Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Farage et al.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So your telling us a spokeswomen for a pro EU organisation that receives EU funding and even said we should join the Euro is scathing about Britain leaving the EU....?

Thatâ€™s a game changer! ðŸ˜‚
		
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Only just noticed this classic. That "Pro EU organisation" represents British Business. You know. That group that you believe will benefit from a No Deal Brexit. So you seriously believe that the organisation that represents Business is actively supporting measures that would hurt them? ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜¢


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## Fade and Die (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Everyone who doesn't swallow your line is dismissed as biased. Do you not consider that?

She represents British Business. She wouldn't last very long if she allowed personal bias to colour her work, would she.

An opinion on her from that rabid left wing rag The Independent.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/cbi-carolyn-fairbairn-brexit-conservatives-conservative-party-conference-philip-hammond-change-in-a8563016.html?amp

Click to expand...

I donâ€™t know if she is â€œpersonally biasedâ€ but she represents an organisation that is extremely pro EU.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I donâ€™t know if she is â€œpersonally biasedâ€ but she represents an organisation that is extremely pro EU.
		
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And that organisation represents British Business. So what do we take from that? 

Would it be that British Business don't want a No Deal Brexit. Or, that the CBI don't represent their members?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			So, let me get this right, evidence that we would be a 2nd class player on the world stage is presented to you. And your rebuttal is that "well that's just an opinion, and it won't affect us till after we leave anyway!"
Of course it won't affect us till after we leave. It'll be too late to address it by then as well.

Ok, are you happy to sign deals that are demonstrably worse than ones we currently benefit from?

Worth noting that reports are emerging that South Korea now want to re-open and renegotiate trade terms with the UK.
		
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What evidence.  You give a link to an editorial where someone is giving an opinion and say it's evidence!

Please stop putting words in my mouth!  My point on us leaving wasn't that it wont affect us until then but that we cannot make any agreements until we leave.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And that organisation represents British Business. So what do we take from that?

Would it be that British Business don't want a No Deal Brexit. Or, that the CBI don't represent their members?
		
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I think you are creating a false dichotomy with your questions.

Yes the CBI lobby group represents business but not all business has the same view.

Heres a few counter views about the CBI that you will probably not read....

https://www.conservativehome.com/th...t-about-every-major-issue-for-many-years.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....015/nov/06/cbi-business-opinion-eu-referendum

Anyway Iâ€™m off to walk the dog (not a euphemism!) Iâ€™ll read your replyâ€™s in a couple of hours. ðŸ‘


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I think you are creating a false dichotomy with your questions.

Yes the CBI lobby group represents business but not all business has the same view.

Heres a few counter views about the CBI that you will probably not read....

https://www.conservativehome.com/th...t-about-every-major-issue-for-many-years.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....015/nov/06/cbi-business-opinion-eu-referendum

Anyway Iâ€™m off to walk the dog (not a euphemism!) Iâ€™ll read your replyâ€™s in a couple of hours. ðŸ‘
		
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Sorry, but you've linked to the Conservative home page and a 4 yr old piece on the ex DG of the CBI. And I've read them both. If you have anything newer and more neutral. It's the reason I've linked to Centre and Right leaning media organisations. 
And I'm out with the dogs now. Have a nice walk.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What evidence.  You give a link to an editorial where someone is giving an opinion and say it's evidence!

Please stop putting words in my mouth!  My point on us leaving wasn't that it wont affect us until then but that we cannot make any agreements until we leave.
		
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I suspect that you wouldn't accept it unless Shinzo Abe rang you personally. Never mind. It was worth a try.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And that organisation represents British Business. So what do we take from that? 

Would it be that British Business don't want a No Deal Brexit. Or, that the CBI don't represent their members?
		
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Is this the same 'British business' that demanded of Cameron he reigned in 'workers rights' afforded by our membership of the EU? Perhaps if they'd allowed some of the supposed/alleged benefits tumble down the vote might have gone the other way...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I suspect that you wouldn't accept it unless Shinzo Abe rang you personally. Never mind. It was worth a try.
		
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Problem with these internet links is you can always find one to support your preferred stance on anything.  Here's one (Not new) from Channel 4 showing how the CBI have used incorrect data in their anti Brexit case.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-questionable-numbers-eu-debate


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Is this the same 'British business' that demanded of Cameron he reigned in 'workers rights' afforded by our membership of the EU? Perhaps if they'd allowed some of the supposed/alleged benefits tumble down the vote might have gone the other way...
		
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Ok, I'm not sure I follow your logic here..(most likely my fault). It appears that you're saying that the electorate decided to punish Cameron and Big Business by voting to leave the organisation that "afforded workers rights" and handing over control of workers rights to the Government of the day (likely to be the Tories for quite a while now). The Government that contains MP's like Dominic Raab, who is most definitely not a fan of workers rights


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Problem with these internet links is you can always find one to support your preferred stance on anything.  Here's one (Not new) from Channel 4 showing how the CBI have used incorrect data in their anti Brexit case.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-questionable-numbers-eu-debate

Click to expand...

Again, it's 4 years old and refers to statements released before the referendum (and I'm not sure you want to get into that discussion again)..
Trust me, I'm no fan of the practices of Big Business, or the CBI.. However, I do realise that economic growth is required in the current economic model. Anything that threatens that growth can only be a negative..

Also, you didn't answer my question earlier..

Purely hypothetically - Would you accept Trade deals that were demonstrably worse that the ones we currently benefit from?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Again, it's 4 years old and refers to statements released before the referendum (and I'm not sure you want to get into that discussion again)..
Trust me, I'm no fan of the practices of Big Business, or the CBI.. However, I do realise that economic growth is required in the current economic model. Anything that threatens that growth can only be a negative..

Also, you didn't answer my question earlier..

Purely hypothetically - Would you accept Trade deals that were demonstrably worse that the ones we currently benefit from?
		
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I was merely pointing out with the link that if you trawl around enough you will find something that substantiates your view whatever it is.

Re your question:
Its a bit of a loaded question where the answer has to be Yes and No!   It's not as simple as Yes we would or No we wont as it depends on the Trade Deal.  If the trade deal was very poor for us we may want to say No and use WTO instead, if its good or reasonable we would probably say Yes.   As it's down to negotiation the ones we have now through the EU would be irrelevant anyway as we would no longer be members.   The way to view this is we would be out of the EU so looking back on what was would be a pointless exercise, that is unless you would want to perpetually dwell in the land of 'What Was'


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I was merely pointing out with the link that if you trawl around enough you will find something that substantiates your view whatever it is.

Re your question:
Its a bit of a loaded question where the answer has to be Yes and No!   It's not as simple as Yes we would or No we wont as it depends on the Trade Deal.  If the trade deal was very poor for us we may want to say No and use WTO instead, if its good or reasonable we would probably say Yes.   As it's down to negotiation the ones we have now through the EU would be irrelevant anyway as we would no longer be members.   The way to view this is we would be out of the EU so looking back on what was would be a pointless exercise, that is unless you would want to perpetually dwell in the land of 'What Was'
		
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I'm sorry Brian, but that's just pure political avoidance... You should consider standing as an candidate with that answer..

If we were to negotiate a deal with say, Japan.. Would you be happy if the deal was worse than the one that's just been signed with the EU?
Even if it was better than WTO terms (and what deal wouldn't be)


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## Fade and Die (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, but you've linked to the Conservative home page and a 4 yr old piece on the ex DG of the CBI. And I've read them both. If you have anything newer and more neutral. It's the reason I've linked to Centre and Right leaning media organisations.
And I'm out with the dogs now. Have a nice walk.
		
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So ignoring the 4 year old item (which is still relevant btw) you think the other organisation is biased?... I think it is too but unlike you with your CBI stance I can acknowledge that.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So ignoring the 4 year old item (which is still relevant btw) you think the other organisation is biased?... I think it is too but unlike you with your CBI stance I can acknowledge that.
		
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How can the CBI one be biased? She thinks that a No Deal Brexit will be a disaster for British Business. She represents British Business. She's either doing that or is giving her own personal opinion (in which case she'd have been replaced by now). 
It appears that anything that doubts the positive effects of a No Deal Brexit is dismissed as biased nonsense.. Even when it's the very organisations that you think will benefit the most.. You're so entrenched in your views that nothing short of a last minute Farage about turn would convince you otherwise..

So, in order to provide balance, can you link to a Centre or Left leaning organisation that is actively promoting a No Deal Brexit...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I'm sorry Brian, but that's just pure political avoidance... You should consider standing as an candidate with that answer..

If we were to negotiate a deal with say, Japan.. Would you be happy if the deal was worse than the one that's just been signed with the EU?
Even if it was better than WTO terms (and what deal wouldn't be)
		
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I would reply to the Right Honorable Gentleman:

The point is whether the deal is acceptable to the UK, what the EU has is not particularly relevant to me.  One would of course take into account what had been previously agreed with other parties but ultimately it would not be the deciding factor.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I would reply to the Right Honorable Gentleman:

The point is whether the deal is acceptable to the UK, what the EU has is not particularly relevant to me.  One would of course take into account what had been previously agreed with other parties but ultimately it would not be the deciding factor.
		
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No, the point of the question is whether it would be acceptable to YOU.. And your reluctance to actually answer the question speaks volumes..

And, with respect, we're not comparing it with what the EU have.. We're comparing it with what we currently have..


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## Fade and Die (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



*How can the CBI one be biased?* She thinks that a No Deal Brexit will be a disaster for British Business. She represents British Business. She's either doing that or is giving her own personal opinion (in which case she'd have been replaced by now).
It appears that anything that doubts the positive effects of a No Deal Brexit is dismissed as biased nonsense.. Even when it's the very organisations that you think will benefit the most.. You're so entrenched in your views that nothing short of a last minute Farage about turn would convince you otherwise..

So, in order to provide balance, can you link to a Centre or Left leaning organisation that is actively promoting a No Deal Brexit...
		
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Ive explained it to you, unfortunately I canâ€™t understand it for you.
You carry on postulating loaded questions though, Iâ€™m out. ðŸ‘


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Ive explained it to you, unfortunately I canâ€™t understand it for you.
You carry on postulating loaded questions thoughðŸ‘
		
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You haven't explained anything. You've only put forward a nonsensical rebuttal. and stooping to veiled insults says everything..

Is she representing her members or not?

Any links to articles explaining the benefits of a no deal brexit yet?


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## MegaSteve (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, I'm not sure I follow your logic here..(most likely my fault). It appears that you're saying that the electorate decided to punish Cameron and Big Business by voting to leave the organisation that "afforded workers rights" and handing over control of workers rights to the Government of the day (likely to be the Tories for quite a while now). The Government that contains MP's like Dominic Raab, who is most definitely not a fan of workers rights
		
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I am saying if 'big business' had allowed more of the alleged/supposed benefits of membership tumble down rather than simply trousering it... There MIGHT have been a different outcome to the vote... Didn't say anything of punishing anyone... Bit like the plumber fella that backed Ms Gina... Tells us all how wonderful Brussels is but denies his employees those 'wonderments'...


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I am saying if 'big business' had allowed more of the alleged/supposed benefits of membership tumble down rather than simply trousering it... There MIGHT have been a different outcome to the vote... Didn't say anything of punishing anyone... Bit like the plumber fella that backed Ms Gina... Tells us all how wonderful Brussels is but denies his employees those 'wonderments'...
		
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But therein lies the problem.. Voting to leave the EU to protest against the Organisations that are held back from the worst excesses of employee abuse by the "protections" of legislation introduced by the EU makes absolutely no sense.. I'm not saying that you're wrong about the motivation, but the way that it could backfire is spectacular..

And with regards to the "plumber fella", now he'll only have to influence the Tories to reduce workers rights.. The Party well known for their protection of employees...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			But therein lies the problem.. Voting to leave the EU to protest against the Organisations that are held back from the worst excesses of employee abuse by the "protections" of legislation introduced by the EU makes absolutely no sense.. I'm not saying that you're wrong about the motivation, but the way that it could backfire is spectacular..

And with regards to the "plumber fella", now he'll only have to influence the Tories to reduce workers rights.. The Party well known for their protection of employees...
		
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Ah! So we are not capable as a country of protecting Workers Rights and need a foreign court to oversee them.   I thought we made decisions on these things in the ballot box.


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## drdel (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			You haven't explained anything. You've only put forward a nonsensical rebuttal. and stooping to veiled insults says everything..

*Is she representing her members or not?*

Any links to articles explaining the benefits of a no deal brexit yet?
		
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No.

Digby Jones came to a different opinion.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			No.

Digby Jones came to a different opinion.
		
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So she's going to be replaced soon then?
and who is Digby Jones representing these days?

And this is the same Digby Jones who admitted on Newsnight that every family would be worse off after Brexit.. And this was just months after claiming that not one job would be lost as a result of Brexit... I can't say what my opinion of DJ is as this would get me kicked off the forum...


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ah! So we are not capable as a country of protecting Workers Rights and need a foreign court to oversee them.   I thought we made decisions on these things in the ballot box.
		
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Of course we are capable.. Don't make silly false equivalencies.. However, when you have people like Raab in the Government then I'll take all the protection I can get...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Of course we are capable.. Don't make silly false equivalencies.. However, when you have people like Raab in the Government then I'll take all the protection I can get...
		
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I don't believe my equivalence was silly!   It was to address your suggestion that it was the EU protecting workers rights from the worst excesses of employee abuse and to abandon it made no sense.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't believe my equivalence was silly!   It was to address your suggestion that it was the EU protecting workers rights from the worst excesses of employee abuse and to abandon it made no sense.
		
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If you look really closely, you'll notice quotation marks around the word Protection.. That's because I was referencing MegaSteve's post regarding EU legislation..

Anyway, I'm off out with the Mrs as she's had some bad news this weekend.. It's pamper time (and by that I mean to find a pub and treat her to a nice Sunday lunch whilst the Rugby is on the TV, followed by the football.. Hope you all have a great remainder of the weekend, and remember, Life is precious so just enjoy what you're doing...


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## Hobbit (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			How can the CBI one be biased? She thinks that a No Deal Brexit will be a disaster for British Business. She represents British Business. She's either doing that or is giving her own personal opinion (in which case she'd have been replaced by now).
It appears that anything that doubts the positive effects of a No Deal Brexit is dismissed as biased nonsense.. Even when it's the very organisations that you think will benefit the most.. You're so entrenched in your views that nothing short of a last minute Farage about turn would convince you otherwise..

So, in order to provide balance, can you link to a Centre or Left leaning organisation that is actively promoting a No Deal Brexit...
		
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Every organisation has a vested interest in the outcome. To say they don't have a bias is... its just bizarre. If they didn't have a bias they would be ambivalent to leaving.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Every organisation has a vested interest in the outcome. To say they don't have a bias is... its just bizarre. If they didn't have a bias they would be ambivalent to leaving.
		
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Fair point. So then it's more accurate to state that she's representing the preferences of those she works for, yes?

So, Business doesn't want a No Deal Brexit? Are we in agreement?


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## Hobbit (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Fair point. So then it's more accurate to state that she's representing the preferences of those she works for, yes?

So, Business doesn't want a No Deal Brexit? Are we in agreement?
		
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No Deal means no 2 years transition, during which time to realign budgets and planning. Even if a particular business supports Brexit, not having planning time will impact on the business.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			No Deal means no 2 years transition, during which time to realign budgets and planning. Even if a particular business supports Brexit, not having planning time will impact on the business.
		
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Quick, while the fragrant one is at the bar. I was under the impression that No Deal meant no transition? Am I wrong?


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## Hobbit (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Quick, while the fragrant one is at the bar. I was under the impression that No Deal meant no transition? Am I wrong?
		
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My first sentence you quoted, no deal means no 2 year transition. Youâ€™re not wrong.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			My first sentence you quoted, no deal means no 2 year transition. Youâ€™re not wrong.
		
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Thank you. Sorry for not reading your post properly. I'm posting in toilet breaks!! ðŸ˜‚


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## Hobbit (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Thank you. Sorry for not reading your post properly. I'm posting in toilet breaks!! ðŸ˜‚
		
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What?! Youâ€™re going to the toilet to post on a golf forum about Brexit?! Not sure if itâ€™s counselling you need or some form of register you need to be signing!


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## drdel (Feb 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What?! Youâ€™re going to the toilet to post on a golf forum about Brexit?! Not sure if itâ€™s counselling you need or some form of register you need to be signing!

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With over 50% of the posts for the day its possibly a bid for 'thread domination '.

It's a bit tedious IMO.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What?! Youâ€™re going to the toilet to post on a golf forum about Brexit?! Not sure if itâ€™s counselling you need or some form of register you need to be signing!

Click to expand...

Yes. I'm posting whilst the better half is away. She's had a bad weekend. 

And I've got 50% of the posts because I'm responding to direct questions from several people. If there are issues with what I'm posting then argue those. And what are "bit tensions"?


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			With over 50% of the posts for the day its possibly a bid for 'thread domination '.

It's a bit tedious IMO.
		
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It's a shame that you've decided to have a go rather than argue the points I've raised. I'll take the hint and leave you to your thread.itd be interesting to see the individual post count on this thread though.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Yes. I'm posting whilst the better half is away. She's had a bad weekend.

And I've got 50% of the posts because I'm responding to direct questions from several people. If there are issues with what I'm posting then argue those. And what are "bit tensions"?
		
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Hope she's OK.


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## bluewolf (Feb 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Hope she's OK.
		
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She will be mate. Time is all that's needed. Thanks for the thought though ðŸ‘


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## Sweep (Feb 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Absolute unqualified nonsense.....

We are currently, as part of the largest trading bloc in the world, in a very strong position. Once we leave, we're going to be a much smaller player,and therefore we won't be able to get the same deals that we currently enjoy.

And here's proof..... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/5ce60af2-2b90-11e9-a5ab-ff8ef2b976c7

And that's just Japan. What do you think America are going to do?

Now then, I've consistently provided proof of my points. All you're doing is having "faith". And that's the big problem. Brexit is like a cult.
		
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Same as usual. Itâ€™s proved you are talking nonsense and when you canâ€™t defend your nonsensical posts you revert to insults.
I note that you are unable to answer my questions demonstrating your own contradictions.
Just in case you are not aware. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world. We were a fair bit higher than that before we joined the EEC / EC / EU so being part of â€œthe largest trading bloc in the worldâ€ may not have done us that much good, but we are where we are.
We (nothing to do with our membership of the EU) are a member of G8, G20, Nato, the Commonwealth and a member of the Security Council of the UN. We are a global and nuclear power. Brexit will change none of these things.
Just because the EU has done a deal with Japan and Canada does not mean, in any way shape or form, that the UK cannot do equally good or better deals ourselves, especially with Canada as a Commonwealth member. You wonâ€™t be old enough to remember, but Britain turned its back on the Commonwealth to join the EU just as some Commonwealth members were about to become â€œtiger economiesâ€, just so we could trade with countries like Luxembourg. Still it looks like the Commonwealth have forgiven us as they all seem to want to do a deal.
Now, back to the recent EU trade deals. You might want to consider why they are so recent and what the EU has been doing for decades.
In the case of Japan, what do you think they are going to say? We havenâ€™t started negotiating yet. Do you think they are going to say they want a deal as good or worse than the one they have just agreed with the EU? If you take your logic, one might ask why Japan would want a deal with the UK at all? And yet, here they are saying they want a deal.
And you mention America. Obviously you only read posts in reply to yours, otherwise you would have seen my post of just a couple of days ago when I pointed out that the UK is the biggest single investor in the US which is the largest economy in the world. The US in the largest single investor in the UK. We have enjoyed a huge trading relationship for decades, long before the EU was ever dreamed up. And all without a trade deal. On WTO rules. You know, those things you are so scared of, that everyone else uses across the planet.
I note that you have gone into meltdown before we even know any details on us leaving. This is because the EU has forced the issue, refusing to discuss a trade deal until we have agreed the WA. This is by design and you have swallowed it. If they did as they should and agreed a deal at least in tandem with the WA, businesses across the EU and UK would have been assured and certainty would have prevailed. That is what a sensible, responsible government which puts its people first would have done. But that would have made Brexit seem so much less toxic to remainers like you, so to whip up the remain camp they refused to even discuss a deal with the worlds 5th largest economy right on its doorstep until the very last minute or even until itâ€™s too late. All this at the same time as doing deals, without any conditions for FOM or superiority of law, with smaller economies on the other side of the world. The UK has consistently said it would like a trade deal. If one doesnâ€™t materialise, itâ€™s the EUâ€™s fault. We buy much more from them than they buy from us. But they sell us very little we canâ€™t get somewhere else. Even if we leave with no deal, it wonâ€™t be long before a trade deal will be agreed. We contribute an awful lot more to the EU than just cash in the form of being its second biggest net contributor.
And you talk about a cult. One thing cult leaders do is instil a belief amongst its members that they cannot survive in the outside world. That they are better staying within, where the cult can protect you, keep you safe from the big, bad world. Everyone hates you outside those walls, itâ€™s better to commit suicide than leave. Sound familiar?
Itâ€™s not brexit thatâ€™s the cult. Brexit is us coming to our senses and leaving the cult. There is a big world out there. We know, we are a global player.


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## bluewolf (Feb 11, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Same as usual. Itâ€™s proved you are talking nonsense and when you canâ€™t defend your nonsensical posts you revert to insults.
I note that you are unable to answer my questions demonstrating your own contradictions.
Just in case you are not aware. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world. We were a fair bit higher than that before we joined the EEC / EC / EU so being part of â€œthe largest trading bloc in the worldâ€ may not have done us that much good, but we are where we are.
We (nothing to do with our membership of the EU) are a member of G8, G20, Nato, the Commonwealth and a member of the Security Council of the UN. We are a global and nuclear power. Brexit will change none of these things.
Just because the EU has done a deal with Japan and Canada does not mean, in any way shape or form, that the UK cannot do equally good or better deals ourselves, especially with Canada as a Commonwealth member. You wonâ€™t be old enough to remember, but Britain turned its back on the Commonwealth to join the EU just as some Commonwealth members were about to become â€œtiger economiesâ€, just so we could trade with countries like Luxembourg. Still it looks like the Commonwealth have forgiven us as they all seem to want to do a deal.
Now, back to the recent EU trade deals. You might want to consider why they are so recent and what the EU has been doing for decades.
In the case of Japan, what do you think they are going to say? We havenâ€™t started negotiating yet. Do you think they are going to say they want a deal as good or worse than the one they have just agreed with the EU? If you take your logic, one might ask why Japan would want a deal with the UK at all? And yet, here they are saying they want a deal.
And you mention America. Obviously you only read posts in reply to yours, otherwise you would have seen my post of just a couple of days ago when I pointed out that the UK is the biggest single investor in the US which is the largest economy in the world. The US in the largest single investor in the UK. We have enjoyed a huge trading relationship for decades, long before the EU was ever dreamed up. And all without a trade deal. On WTO rules. You know, those things you are so scared of, that everyone else uses across the planet.
I note that you have gone into meltdown before we even know any details on us leaving. This is because the EU has forced the issue, refusing to discuss a trade deal until we have agreed the WA. This is by design and you have swallowed it. If they did as they should and agreed a deal at least in tandem with the WA, businesses across the EU and UK would have been assured and certainty would have prevailed. That is what a sensible, responsible government which puts its people first would have done. But that would have made Brexit seem so much less toxic to remainers like you, so to whip up the remain camp they refused to even discuss a deal with the worlds 5th largest economy right on its doorstep until the very last minute or even until itâ€™s too late. All this at the same time as doing deals, without any conditions for FOM or superiority of law, with smaller economies on the other side of the world. The UK has consistently said it would like a trade deal. If one doesnâ€™t materialise, itâ€™s the EUâ€™s fault. We buy much more from them than they buy from us. But they sell us very little we canâ€™t get somewhere else. Even if we leave with no deal, it wonâ€™t be long before a trade deal will be agreed. We contribute an awful lot more to the EU than just cash in the form of being its second biggest net contributor.
And you talk about a cult. One thing cult leaders do is instil a belief amongst its members that they cannot survive in the outside world. That they are better staying within, where the cult can protect you, keep you safe from the big, bad world. Everyone hates you outside those walls, itâ€™s better to commit suicide than leave. Sound familiar?
Itâ€™s not brexit thatâ€™s the cult. Brexit is us coming to our senses and leaving the cult. There is a big world out there. We know, we are a global player.
		
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Ok, firstly, I didn't resort to insults. I just pointed out that your post was nonsense. And it was. As is the one dimensional misrepresentation of global economics that you've posted above. There are numerous rebuttals that could be posted, but it's a working week now and time is restricted. Safe to say that your recollection of the UK as "a fair bit higher" than the 5th largest economy is outlandish. Unless the term sick man of Europe was a. Ironic nickname. Still, don't believe me. Here's that left wing rag the FT to explain.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

And to respond to your theories regarding trade deals, we may currently have the 5th largest individual (and service based) Economy in the world, but we aren't bigger than the Trading Bloc that is the EU. So the chances of us getting a better are infinitesimal. As evidenced by reports out of Japan and South Korea. We know exactly what Nations like India want and I've already told you exactly what America want. Of course they are desperate to do deals with us, we're about be the only country in the world trading solely on WTO terms (and despite what you've been told, that is not a good thing, as this link to another Leftie rag, The Economist shows... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....-wto-terms-would-be-fine-wrong#ampf=undefined). The 5th largest economy is about to undergo a fire sale.
The rest of your post is irrelevant (except the petty digs. I loved those).
Neither of us are close enough to the sharp end of this really. We can only hope that reports like this one are untrue..
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theweek.co.uk/fact-check/95547/fact-check-what-a-no-deal-brexit-really-means?amp

In the end, it's all about opinions I suppose. Time will tell which of us is right. Let's have a look at the trade deals as they gradually materialise shall we. We'll base our opinions on whether there are job losses or not, or Economic growth.


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## Sweep (Feb 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, firstly, I didn't resort to insults. I just pointed out that your post was nonsense. And it was. As is the one dimensional misrepresentation of global economics that you've posted above. There are numerous rebuttals that could be posted, but it's a working week now and time is restricted. Safe to say that your recollection of the UK as "a fair bit higher" than the 5th largest economy is outlandish. Unless the term sick man of Europe was a. Ironic nickname. Still, don't believe me. Here's that left wing rag the FT to explain.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

And to respond to your theories regarding trade deals, we may currently have the 5th largest individual (and service based) Economy in the world, but we aren't bigger than the Trading Bloc that is the EU. So the chances of us getting a better are infinitesimal. As evidenced by reports out of Japan and South Korea. We know exactly what Nations like India want and I've already told you exactly what America want. Of course they are desperate to do deals with us, we're about be the only country in the world trading solely on WTO terms (and despite what you've been told, that is not a good thing). The 5th largest economy is about to undergo a fire sale.
The rest of your post is irrelevant (except the petty digs. I loved those).
Neither of us are close enough to the sharp end of this really. We can only hope that reports like this one are untrue..
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theweek.co.uk/fact-check/95547/fact-check-what-a-no-deal-brexit-really-means?amp

In the end, it's all about opinions I suppose. Time will tell which of us is right. Let's have a look at the trade deals as they gradually materialise shall we. We'll base our opinions on whether there are job losses or not, or Economic growth.
		
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Thatâ€™s a good one. â€œYour point is wrong but I donâ€™t have time to prove itâ€.
The sick man of Europe was a jibe made at the effects of the Callaghan government which collapsed in 1979. Amazingly 7 years AFTER we joined the EU. In 1965 Britain was the 3rd largest economy in the world and the 4th in 1970. So I stand by my assertion that joining didnâ€™t do us much good in that regard at least.
To say my outlining of Britainâ€™s position in the world which was factual as â€œone dimensionalâ€ is just odd. The rest of my post is entirely relevant. You just canâ€™t answer the points I made.
The point about nations like Japan and S. Korea wanting to negotiate deals with a non EU UK is that they want to deal with us. They want to negotiate a deal. Itâ€™s not a renegotiation because we donâ€™t have a deal and thatâ€™s because we werenâ€™t allowed to do one by the protectionist EU. 
What fire sale? In your world if the EU does a free trade deal itâ€™s wonderful (which it is). If the UK does one itâ€™s a fire sale. Sorry, but this is just more â€œEU good, UK badâ€. In your eyes, nothing the UK will do will be good enough and the EU can do no wrong.
And BTW, as an importer and exporter to and from both the EU and the ROW I am very much at the sharp end.


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## bluewolf (Feb 11, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Thatâ€™s a good one. â€œYour point is wrong but I donâ€™t have time to prove itâ€.
The sick man of Europe was a jibe made at the effects of the Callaghan government which collapsed in 1979. Amazingly 7 years AFTER we joined the EU. In 1965 Britain was the 3rd largest economy in the world and the 4th in 1970. So I stand by my assertion that joining didnâ€™t do us much good in that regard at least.
To say my outlining of Britainâ€™s position in the world which was factual as â€œone dimensionalâ€ is just odd. The rest of my post is entirely relevant. You just canâ€™t answer the points I made.
The point about nations like Japan and S. Korea wanting to negotiate deals with a non EU UK is that they want to deal with us. They want to negotiate a deal. Itâ€™s not a renegotiation because we donâ€™t have a deal and thatâ€™s because we werenâ€™t allowed to do one by the protectionist EU.
What fire sale? In your world if the EU does a free trade deal itâ€™s wonderful (which it is). If the UK does one itâ€™s a fire sale. Sorry, but this is just more â€œEU good, UK badâ€. In your eyes, nothing the UK will do will be good enough and the EU can do no wrong.
And BTW, as an importer and exporter to and from both the EU and the ROW I am very much at the sharp end.
		
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You didn't read the links did you?
It appears you didn't fully read any of my previous posts either.
I can only present the information. If you refuse to read it then I can't do much more can I?
Would you care to refute any of the links that I posted? Any of them. At all.

Oh, and one question. Do you think our economy now bears any resemblance to our economy in the 60's or 70's?

A brief explainer of the Sick Man of Europe label....

Throughout the late 1960s and 1970s, the United Kingdom was frequently called the "sick man of Europe", first by foreign commentators, and later at home by critics of the third Wilson/Callaghanministry, because of industrial strife and poor economic performance compared to other European countries.[9] This era is considered to have started with the devaluation of the pound in 1967, culminating with the Winter of Discontent of 1978â€“79, the period between the Three-Day Week in 1973-74 and the IMF bailout in 1976 is generally seen by Britons as one of the darkest periods in the country's modern history. At different points throughout the decade, numerous countries such as Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, and Greece were cited by the American press as being "on the verge of sickness" as well. In the summer of 2017, the United Kingdomwas again referred to as the "sick man of Europe" following the results of the supposed negative economic effects of the EU referendum the previous year.[10]


Oh, and one last thing. I'm getting pretty tired of the pathetic comments about how we Remainers think that the EU is always right and the UK always wrong. I'm as patriotic as anyone. I accept the EU is imperfect. Everything is. I strongly believe that we are better off as part of a larger group. I think that leaving will be hugely detrimental to us, both economically and socially. 
Furthermore, I'd like to see anyone who has orchestrated Brexit and then subsequently profits from the fall of the Pound treated as a traitor.


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## bluewolf (Feb 11, 2019)

@Sweep and others. I hope you don't mind if I take my leave from this thread (again ðŸ˜‚). I've made all the points I want to make. I'm sure you all disagree. Only time will tell who's right. In all honesty, it's quite tiring constantly responding to the same 4 or 5 people. I respect your position, but I personally think you're wrong. I'm 100% sure that you think the same of me. That won't change. 

I will make a promise though. If I'm proven wrong I'll be big enough to come on here and admit it. If Brexit is a success I'll happily genuflect at your altar. If I'm right I'll probably be too busy tarting up my Honda Mad Max style so that I can get the last tins of beans from the co op. ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2019)

Some interesting data coming out from the EU's own economic forecasting team. Growth forecast has been shifted down from its original forecast. The ECB's forecast is at odds with the EU's economic dept in so much as its forecast is far darker.

Typically of the accuracy of forecasting, reality sometimes is very different. For example, energy costs by country are expected to rise by 2.4%. Wish someone had told the Spanish electricity provider that a 25% hike is a little excessive.

Unemployment here in Spain hit 18.8% last month, with 30% of under 25's unemployed. 85,000 people lost their job in Spain in January. That headline figure masks the regional differences. Like Italy there's a huge difference between the rich north and poor south.

There is a huge concern over Italy's attitude to debt repayments, and growing worries over Italy and Greece leaving the EU (can't see Greece leaving - the EU is bankrolling public sector spending). Junk debt in over half the EU countries, with bonds due for repayment expected to seriously underperform, is a major concern for the ECB.

Bizarrely, the EU's own economic team predicts no change in trade with the UK, and expects the status quo to continue with an equitable trade deal for both sides. The UK's growth forecast is expected at 1.2%, pretty much as predicted by the UK's own forecasters, which is the lowest in the EU.


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## Foxholer (Feb 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			...
Bizarrely, the EU's own economic team predicts no change in trade with the UK, and expects the status quo to continue with an equitable trade deal for both sides. The UK's growth forecast is expected at 1.2%, pretty much as predicted by the UK's own forecasters, which is the lowest in the EU.
		
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This quote from the the Forecast Document should explain it...

'Given the ongoing ratification process of the Withdrawal Agreement in the EU and the UK, projections for 2019 and 2020 are based on a purely technical assumption of status quo in terms of trading relations between the EU27 and the UK. This is for forecasting purposes only and has no bearing on the talks underway in the context of the Article 50 process. Under this assumption, GDP growth is projected to remain weak at 1.3% in 2019.....'

https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/european-economic-forecast-winter-2019_en

*So it's not 'predicts' but 'assumes'!*

Btw. That quote (and the 1.3% figure) came from the Winter 2019 doc (published 7/2/19). It was 1.2% in the Autumn 2018 doc. The same 'assumption' was in that document.  https://ec.europa.eu/info/publications/economy-finance/european-economic-forecast-autumn-2018_en

Mind you, the 2018 doc had United Kingdom as a link in the 'by Country' section. The 2019 doc hasn't!

And on the subject of those forecast docs.....It seems that the growth in the 'new entrant' states is forecast to be significantly above that of older ones. The would seem to be a good thing all round - perhaps reducing (at least the increase in) the movement of people from those states to 'richer' ones.


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## Sweep (Feb 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			You didn't read the links did you?
It appears you didn't fully read any of my previous posts either.
I can only present the information. If you refuse to read it then I can't do much more can I?
Would you care to refute any of the links that I posted? Any of them. At all.

Oh, and one question. Do you think our economy now bears any resemblance to our economy in the 60's or 70's?

A brief explainer of the Sick Man of Europe label....

Throughout the late 1960s and 1970s, the United Kingdom was frequently called the "sick man of Europe", first by foreign commentators, and later at home by critics of the third Wilson/Callaghanministry, because of industrial strife and poor economic performance compared to other European countries.[9] This era is considered to have started with the devaluation of the pound in 1967, culminating with the Winter of Discontent of 1978â€“79, the period between the Three-Day Week in 1973-74 and the IMF bailout in 1976 is generally seen by Britons as one of the darkest periods in the country's modern history. At different points throughout the decade, numerous countries such as Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, and Greece were cited by the American press as being "on the verge of sickness" as well. In the summer of 2017, the United Kingdomwas again referred to as the "sick man of Europe" following the results of the supposed negative economic effects of the EU referendum the previous year.[10]


Oh, and one last thing. I'm getting pretty tired of the pathetic comments about how we Remainers think that the EU is always right and the UK always wrong. I'm as patriotic as anyone. I accept the EU is imperfect. Everything is. I strongly believe that we are better off as part of a larger group. I think that leaving will be hugely detrimental to us, both economically and socially.
Furthermore, I'd like to see anyone who has orchestrated Brexit and then subsequently profits from the fall of the Pound treated as a traitor.
		
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I think I have pretty much refuted all the links you have posted.
The devolution of the pound was a Harold Wilson Labour government decision to bolster the pound against the rise of the US Dollar. Everything else you have stated happened after we joined the EEC/ EC / EU. So at the very best joining didnâ€™t help, did it? All the other â€œsick men of Europeâ€ were in the EU.
I am not sure what source google is taking you to, but I donâ€™t recall the sick man of Europe jibe being levelled at the UK in 2017, but if it was it was clearly wrong, as all the economic data proves. TBH you donâ€™t have to do that well to avoid the sick man title these days. Just read Hobbitâ€™s post from this morning for a little taster on our competition. Or you can bury your head and believe the EU is the land of milk and honey.
You may well be getting tired of people accusing you of believing that the EU is always right and the UK is always wrong. But in truth that is what you post. I assume therefore that is what you believe. That, I am afraid, does not make you as patriotic as the next man. You have little faith in your own country and donâ€™t believe we can prosper without the interference of others. I donâ€™t mean this as an insult. Itâ€™s just the truth given what you post. Like many today you are more â€œEuropeanâ€ than â€œBritishâ€. You are about as patriotic to the UK as I am to the EU. Thatâ€™s fair enough. Patriotism is probably out moded these days anyway. But donâ€™t claim you are a patriot when you post opinions that show you as anything but.


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## Sweep (Feb 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



@Sweep and others. I hope you don't mind if I take my leave from this thread (again ðŸ˜‚). I've made all the points I want to make. I'm sure you all disagree. Only time will tell who's right. In all honesty, it's quite tiring constantly responding to the same 4 or 5 people. I respect your position, but I personally think you're wrong. I'm 100% sure that you think the same of me. That won't change.

I will make a promise though. If I'm proven wrong I'll be big enough to come on here and admit it. If Brexit is a success I'll happily genuflect at your altar. If I'm right I'll probably be too busy tarting up my Honda Mad Max style so that I can get the last tins of beans from the co op. ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‰
		
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You will be back. You canâ€™t resist. ðŸ˜€
Anyway this thread wonâ€™t last without you. You are the only remainer left posting. I think we must have converted the rest. ðŸ¤”
Câ€™mon. You canâ€™t leave now. We are going for a forum record here. And you owe it to your cause. ðŸ‘ðŸ˜€


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## Mudball (Feb 11, 2019)

So for a moment.. forget all the peeps in Westminister who everyone seems to agree are beyond repair..  forget if you are a Leaver or Exiter... 

Mrs M asked me a simple question..   'Do you want me to stock up on something before April?'.   Irrespective of which way you lean on the debate, you will still need to eat, shower, drink, cook, plant etc.  So the most fundamental question is ... to Stock or not to Stock...  What advice are you giving the Mrs if she pops the question..


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## IanM (Feb 11, 2019)

Great question,  "do you believe what has been in the Press?"

 - well, the one bit I actually know about has been sufficiently lied about in the press to such an extent, I am not worried.... and if we are all alive and have enough fuel to drive to Sunningdale in the summer, I'll tell you all about it!


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## Sweep (Feb 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So for a moment.. forget all the peeps in Westminister who everyone seems to agree are beyond repair..  forget if you are a Leaver or Exiter...

Mrs M asked me a simple question..   'Do you want me to stock up on something before April?'.   Irrespective of which way you lean on the debate, you will still need to eat, shower, drink, cook, plant etc.  So the most fundamental question is ... to Stock or not to Stock...  What advice are you giving the Mrs if she pops the question..
		
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Fair question but I wouldnâ€™t ask her to stock up on anything. I donâ€™t think there will be any shortages. I am fairly sure there will be some panic buying though and people will be pointing at empty shelves because of it.
Oh... hang on. Where do golf balls come from? I go through a lot of them.


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## Mudball (Feb 11, 2019)

IanM said:



			Great question,  "do you believe what has been in the Press?"

- well, the one bit I actually know about has been sufficiently lied about in the press to such an extent, I am not worried.... and if we are all alive and have enough fuel to drive to Sunningdale in the summer, I'll tell you all about it!
		
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As I said... nothing to do with my belief or not..  The question is how to respond to HID.  Take a worst case assumption and we have panic buying/queues at Dover, and prices jump (for a month or so).  This hits pockets and will get some serious bollocking from HID.  She wont care about your Sunningdale plan as long as she can put food on the table on the 2nd week of April. 



Sweep said:



			Fair question but I wouldnâ€™t ask her to stock up on anything. I donâ€™t think there will be any shortages. I am fairly sure there will be some panic buying though and people will be pointing at empty shelves because of it.
Oh... hang on. Where do golf balls come from? I go through a lot of them.
		
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I do too (atleast when i am playing)... but I do have a stock of them in the garage too.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 11, 2019)

Hope we don't run out of San Miguel @ the club


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 11, 2019)

Sweep said:



			You are the only remainer left posting. I think we must have converted the rest. ðŸ¤”
		
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Perhaps many of us can't be bothered with the shouting down and regurgitating of "facts" or "figures".
My opinion has not been changed, especially by this thread, but I see no point in taking any interest in this part of the forum.


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## Sweep (Feb 11, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps many of us can't be bothered with the shouting down and regurgitating of "facts" or "figures".
My opinion has not been changed, especially by this thread, but I see no point in taking any interest in this part of the forum.


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Oh. As remainers donâ€™t seem to have stopped moaning for the past 2.5 years, I just thought you were converted. 
Shall I put you down as a maybe? ðŸ˜€


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2019)

I have been away on cultural business for a couple of days.

Does anyone know if Nigel Farage has left his new Brexit party yet.


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## Foxholer (Feb 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have been away *on cultural business* for a couple of days.
...
		
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How's the hangover?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Oh, and one last thing. I'm getting pretty tired of the pathetic comments about how we Remainers think that the EU is always right and the UK always wrong. I'm as patriotic as anyone. I accept the EU is imperfect. Everything is. I strongly believe that we are better off as part of a larger group. I think that leaving will be hugely detrimental to us, both economically and socially.
Furthermore, I'd like to see anyone who has orchestrated Brexit and then subsequently profits from the fall of the Pound treated as a traitor.
		
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Well said, some people tend to confuse Patriotism with Nationalism.

The difference between *patriotism and nationalism* is that the *patriot* is proud of his country for what it does, *and* the *nationalist* is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance.


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## Mudball (Feb 11, 2019)

So the National Farmers Union has written to Gove that no-deal will be catastrophic for them. Remind me again, we were told that the Farmers were the first guys wanting to leave .. or was that a different set of farmers??


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So for a moment.. forget all the peeps in Westminister who everyone seems to agree are beyond repair..  forget if you are a Leaver or Exiter... 

Mrs M asked me a simple question..   'Do you want me to stock up on something before April?'.   Irrespective of which way you lean on the debate, you will still need to eat, shower, drink, cook, plant etc.  So the most fundamental question is ... to Stock or not to Stock...  What advice are you giving the Mrs if she pops the question..
		
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Don't stock. No need. The only problem will be if people do stock as that would distort everything. I've thought about what we buy at home, food wise, and I reckon the only things that are imported are perishables such as fruit and veg that is out of season. You can't really stock up on those, the clue is in the title, and we'll survive without Dutch / Spanish salad for a few weeks if we need to ðŸ˜„


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## IanM (Feb 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So the National Farmers Union has written to Gove that no-deal will be catastrophic for them. Remind me again, we were told that the Farmers were the first guys wanting to leave .. or was that a different set of farmers??
		
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Probably


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## drdel (Feb 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Don't stock. No need. The only problem will be if people do stock as that would distort everything. I've thought about what we buy at home, food wise, and I reckon the only things that are imported are perishables such as fruit and veg that is out of season. You can't really stock up on those, the clue is in the title, and we'll survive without Dutch / Spanish salad for a few weeks if we need to ðŸ˜„
		
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There are other sellers outside the EU  which is why Italy and Spain, to name two, are very worried about the loss of business and being undercut.


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Don't stock. No need. The only problem will be if people do stock as that would distort everything. I've thought about what we buy at home, food wise, and I reckon the only things that are imported are perishables such as fruit and veg that is out of season. You can't really stock up on those, the clue is in the title, and we'll survive without Dutch / Spanish salad for a few weeks if we need to ðŸ˜„
		
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I wouldn't worry about the perishables. A guy did a Youtube vid a few weeks back about the hysteria around the lettuce thing. He recorded what was on the shelves in his local supermarket. The lettuce on the shelves were from 3(?) different countries, none of which were EU countries.


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## Foxholer (Feb 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			There are other sellers outside the EU  *which is why Italy and Spain, to name two, are very worried about the loss of business and being undercut.*

Click to expand...

I agree with the non-bold bit. But evidence for the bold bit please! 

Not actually disagreeing, but there's been so much simple opinion and flat out lies spouted, that such assertions require (credible) evidence before I accept them!


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			There are other sellers outside the EU  which is why Italy and Spain, to name two, are very worried about the loss of business and being undercut.
		
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There's a piece in the local English paper over here today. There's 11,500+ exporters in Spain who are very worried about losing their market.


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## Sweep (Feb 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Well said, some people tend to confuse Patriotism with Nationalism.

The difference between *patriotism and nationalism* is that the *patriot* is proud of his country for what it does, *and* the *nationalist* is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance.
		
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However, in these cases the patriot isnâ€™t proud of his country for what it does, because in their view it canâ€™t do anything without help and interference from the EU. 
I donâ€™t think there are many, if any, nationalists that fit your description on here. For example, I think everyone at some point has expressed frustration at the way our government has handled the negotiations and the way our parliament has acted over Brexit at some point, no matter what side of the debate they are on.
What I donâ€™t see is the remainers on here or elsewhere ever conceding an inch, even when faced with cold hard facts. They just cannot bring themselves to criticise their beloved EU. If you look at those who practically live outside Parliament with their EU flags, you would think we are talking about leaving Nirvana. Itâ€™s just blind faith in the EU and no faith whatsoever in their own country.


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2019)

Sweep said:



			However, in these cases the patriot isnâ€™t proud of his country for what it does, because in their view it canâ€™t do anything without help and interference from the EU.
I donâ€™t think there are many, if any, nationalists that fit your description on here. For example, I think everyone at some point has expressed frustration at the way our government has handled the negotiations and the way our parliament has acted over Brexit at some point, no matter what side of the debate they are on.
What I donâ€™t see is the remainers on here or elsewhere ever conceding an inch, even when faced with cold hard facts. They just cannot bring themselves to criticise their beloved EU. If you look at those who practically live outside Parliament with their EU flags, you would think we are talking about leaving Nirvana. Itâ€™s just blind faith in the EU and no faith whatsoever in their own country.
		
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Nah, that's just rubbish.

First of all, what you've posted is your opinion of people's stance. Its not definitive, its just an opinion. My opinion, for what its worth, is that Bluey feels we're better as part of a greater organisation, not that we need help to be better. However, if the shambolic negotiations are anything to go by I'd definitely worry about our govt's ability to put the mechanics in place to survive Brexit.

Secondly, "Remainers on here...;" I'm a Remainer and would vote Remain again in a heart beat. My issue with Remainers and Leavers is the blind faith some have in nirvana both within or without. The language of crash out, which I detest with a passion, is too emotive and some people just lap it up. Equally, the expectation that dump the EU will lead to a massive economic boost.

The UK will make a success of leaving the EU but not before there will be some serious bumps in the road. Leaving won't be a rehearsal, it will be a very real painful thing for many people. And staying in, with the proposed increase in the budget will be very painful too. There are 2 countries running the EU, France and Germany. The UK has never been fully engaged, or been included at/with the top table.

Food banks and austerity, and thats whilst the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world. Can you imagine how good things will be when the UK hits those bumps in the road? When it sees an almost immediate (further) drop in the pound. Whoopee-do, UK products will be cheaper for foreign buyers BUT the raw materials bought from everywhere in the world will be more expensive. The cold hard facts are that the UK will suffer in the short term. But that's too impersonal. People will suffer genuine hardship. Some businesses will go to the wall - not might, will.

Leaving will create some fantastic opportunities, providing the UK has the wherewithal to grasp them. And then there's the surviving the bumps in the road. Can businesses survive that bump, those extra costs, before nirvana arrives. Some will, and thrive, but some won't.


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## Foxholer (Feb 11, 2019)

Sweep said:



			However, in these cases the patriot isnâ€™t proud of his country for what it does, because in their view it canâ€™t do anything without help and interference from the EU.
I donâ€™t think there are many, if any, nationalists that fit your description on here. For example, _I think everyone at some point has expressed frustration at the way our government has handled the negotiations and the way our parliament has acted over Brexit at some point, no matter what side of the debate they are on_.
What I donâ€™t see is the remainers on here or elsewhere ever conceding an inch, even when faced with cold hard facts. They just cannot bring themselves to criticise their beloved EU. If you look at those who practically live outside Parliament with their EU flags, you would think we are talking about leaving Nirvana. Itâ€™s just blind faith in the EU and no faith whatsoever in their own country.
		
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What a load of twaddle!

Except, perhaps, the italicised bit. Though that's hardly a great argument for 'taking back control'!

Most of those 'cold hard facts' have been nothing of the sort! And I'm almost certain that 'their beloved EU' doesn't describe the vast majority of Remainers. There may be some EU devotees, but I believe most Remainers simply prefer the relatively predictability of the status quo!


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## Sweep (Feb 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			What a load of twaddle!

Except, perhaps, the italicised bit. Though that's hardly a great argument for 'taking back control'!

Most of those 'cold hard facts' have been nothing of the sort! And I'm almost certain that 'their beloved EU' doesn't describe the vast majority of Remainers. There may be some EU devotees, but I believe most Remainers simply prefer the relatively predictability of the status quo!
		
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There you go again. Is it really beyond you to post in disagreement with someone without reverting to insults in the very first line? Would you have said that to my face? Is that how you react in person or are you just another keyboard warrior? Are you surprised people respond to you in kind?
Taking back control has nothing to do with my post. This wasnâ€™t about the central leave / remain debate. It was about entrenched views and nationalism as described in the post I was replying to.
What you call â€œmostâ€ cold, hard factsâ€ does not mean â€œallâ€. I am sure even you would accept that there have been some indisputable facts posted, that have been either treated with disdain or quite often on this forum, just not replied to.
In my experience (as I outlined when I wrote â€œ what I donâ€™t seeâ€) remainers will not accept any criticism of the EU. Oddly, I donâ€™t believe this was the case prior to the referendum but now their views have become entrenched. In their view it seems the EU can do no wrong. I see remainers supporting the EU in negotiations against their own country, defending the institution at all costs. That is their prerogative but it is not patriotic.
When you say that there â€œmay be some EU devoteesâ€ you are essentially  agreeing with my post that you described as â€œa load of twaddleâ€. Your view on remainers just wanting to maintain the status quo is just you telling people why they voted the way they did again. This is something I thought we had got past nationally months ago and on this forum a few thousand posts in the past.
The post I replied to described a nationalist as someone who believed his country can do no wrong. I said that I donâ€™t believe there is anyone here who thought like that. This was part of the post you trashed (not the bit you italicised). Part of the post you described as â€œa load of twaddleâ€. I suggest you come up with a name of a forummer you believe is a nationalist as described in the post I was replying to. If you canâ€™t I suggest you go away and reflect on your â€œload of twaddleâ€ comment and think about what you post and how you post it in the future.


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## Sweep (Feb 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Nah, that's just rubbish.

First of all, what you've posted is your opinion of people's stance. Its not definitive, its just an opinion. My opinion, for what its worth, is that Bluey feels we're better as part of a greater organisation, not that we need help to be better. However, if the shambolic negotiations are anything to go by I'd definitely worry about our govt's ability to put the mechanics in place to survive Brexit.

Secondly, "Remainers on here...;" I'm a Remainer and would vote Remain again in a heart beat. My issue with Remainers and Leavers is the blind faith some have in nirvana both within or without. The language of crash out, which I detest with a passion, is too emotive and some people just lap it up. Equally, the expectation that dump the EU will lead to a massive economic boost.

The UK will make a success of leaving the EU but not before there will be some serious bumps in the road. Leaving won't be a rehearsal, it will be a very real painful thing for many people. And staying in, with the proposed increase in the budget will be very painful too. There are 2 countries running the EU, France and Germany. The UK has never been fully engaged, or been included at/with the top table.

Food banks and austerity, and thats whilst the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world. Can you imagine how good things will be when the UK hits those bumps in the road? When it sees an almost immediate (further) drop in the pound. Whoopee-do, UK products will be cheaper for foreign buyers BUT the raw materials bought from everywhere in the world will be more expensive. The cold hard facts are that the UK will suffer in the short term. But that's too impersonal. People will suffer genuine hardship. Some businesses will go to the wall - not might, will.

Leaving will create some fantastic opportunities, providing the UK has the wherewithal to grasp them. And then there's the surviving the bumps in the road. Can businesses survive that bump, those extra costs, before nirvana arrives. Some will, and thrive, but some won't.
		
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In the main I refer you to my reply to Foxy. You are correct when you say that you voted remain and I guess that makes you a remainer. I was particularly referring to ardent remainers who cannot see past the EU. I didnâ€™t mean every single person who voted remain and I think you know that, but it is true that I didnâ€™t make this clear. Apart from indisputable and accepted facts all any of us post on here are opinions. Itâ€™s a debate. I thought that was understood. I do not portray my opinion as fact.
I am well aware that Bluey is of the opinion we are better off in. He has made that very clear. I am sure I have made it clear I disagree. As I say, itâ€™s a debate. A very interesting debate. Not particularly one if you are looking for a feel good factor or one for a period of relaxation, but an interesting debate nonetheless. From what he has posted though, it does seem to me that he has little if any confidence in the UK going it alone.
I agree with you about our government and how they have handled negotiations, as I think I have made clear. Itâ€™s a worry, though I do hope and believe that if we finally lanced the boil and left we would be free of many shackles, not least the act of leaving itself, and governing would become easier. That is not to say it wonâ€™t be without new challenges.
The rest of your reply is your opinion, not that I donâ€™t agree with some of what you say. However my post was not about the central remain / leave debate, but about entrenched views and nationalism as described in the post I was replying to. In this regard and with respect itâ€™s not relevant to the points I was making that you disagreed with.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2019)

Sweep said:



			However, in these cases the patriot isnâ€™t proud of his country for what it does, because in their view it canâ€™t do anything without help and interference from the EU.
I donâ€™t think there are many, if any, nationalists that fit your description on here. For example, I think everyone at some point has expressed frustration at the way our government has handled the negotiations and the way our parliament has acted over Brexit at some point, no matter what side of the debate they are on.
What I donâ€™t see is the remainers on here or elsewhere ever conceding an inch, even when faced with cold hard facts. They just cannot bring themselves to criticise their beloved EU. If you look at those who practically live outside Parliament with their EU flags, you would think we are talking about leaving Nirvana. Itâ€™s just blind faith in the EU and no faith whatsoever in their own country.
		
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In reply to this post and your others below, any linking of povâ€™s on Brexit to flag waving and whether youâ€™re a patriot or not is simply wrong.
Isnâ€™t part of whatâ€™s great about our country is democracy and freedom of speech and something we all take great pride in?

Whether you like to admit it or not, a lot of people who voted to leave did so on a racist and anti-government ticket, how do I know that? Because Iâ€™ve lived it everyday since the vote, up here in Seaham a staunch Labour, former mining town were the vast majority voted to leave and when you ask why, they tell you it was because they were never going to support Cameron and what he wanted and were sick of foreigners coming and taking all the jobs. It wasnâ€™t based on fact, it was based on ignorance.
Are the Union flag waving idiots outside Parliament who abused the female MPâ€™s more of a patriot than Bluewolf because of what box they ticked on a piece of paper? No, no their not, 100% their not.
None of us know for sure how the next few years are going to pan out, we ALL hope for ALL our futures itâ€™s ok.
But please donâ€™t judge or label someone based on how hard they wave the Union flag or how loud they sing â€œGod save the Queenâ€


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 12, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So the National Farmers Union has written to Gove that no-deal will be catastrophic for them. Remind me again, we were told that the Farmers were the first guys wanting to leave .. or was that a different set of farmers??
		
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No the same farmers, they voted leave in the sound knowledge that the will still receive their EU agriculture subsidies.
Same as the fisherfolk.


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## Hobbit (Feb 12, 2019)

The who is a patriot and who is a nationalist, in respect of this debate, is very thought provoking.

Can a patriot also want the UK to be part of the EU? Why not? If someone believes that being part of something is best for the UK, surely that also means they are a patriot? 

The debate about what is a nationalist is a little greyer, in my eyes. The painting of the word nationalist as bad is a relatively recent thing, and in its purest form a nationalist isn't too far removed from a patriot. However, the difference between a nationalist and a Neo-nationalist is quite distinct. Neo-nationalism is very much a rightwing populism, often alongside antiglobalisation as we have seen with the more extreme Brexit supporters.

Can a Remainer be a nationalist? That all depends on how much federalism is prevalent in the EU's make-up. A large part of nationalism is about sovereignty, and I'd argue that sovereignty and the current level of EU federalism isn't compatible.

Before we get the ardent EU Remainers shouting that the UK has sovereignty, no it doesn't. Whilst the UK has to take laws from the EU it isn't sovereign. The mere fact that the UK has disputed over 4,000 laws from the EU in the last 10 years, losing 85% of those disputes, makes it a given that UK sovereignty is compromised. Anyone disputing that should simply look up the definition of sovereignty. I can't be ar53d arguing the toss on yes we do no we don't have sovereignty. The definition is what it is, and the UK doesn't have sovereignty right across the full gambit of law making.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The who is a patriot and who is a nationalist, in respect of this debate, is very thought provoking.

Can a patriot also want the UK to be part of the EU? Why not? If someone believes that being part of something is best for the UK, surely that also means they are a patriot?

The debate about what is a nationalist is a little greyer, in my eyes. The painting of the word nationalist as bad is a relatively recent thing, and in its purest form a nationalist isn't too far removed from a patriot. However, the difference between a nationalist and a Neo-nationalist is quite distinct. Neo-nationalism is very much a rightwing populism, often alongside antiglobalisation as we have seen with the more extreme Brexit supporters.

Can a Remainer be a nationalist? That all depends on how much federalism is prevalent in the EU's make-up. A large part of nationalism is about sovereignty, and I'd argue that sovereignty and the current level of EU federalism isn't compatible.

Before we get the ardent EU Remainers shouting that the UK has sovereignty, no it doesn't. Whilst the UK has to take laws from the EU it isn't sovereign. The mere fact that the UK has disputed over 4,000 laws from the EU in the last 10 years, losing 85% of those disputes, makes it a given that UK sovereignty is compromised. Anyone disputing that should simply look up the definition of sovereignty. I can't be ar53d arguing the toss on yes we do no we don't have sovereignty. The definition is what it is, and the UK doesn't have sovereignty right across the full gambit of law making.
		
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Donâ€™t think thereâ€™s any reason to link  patriotism or nationalism in to the debate imo, hopefully we all want whatâ€™s best for Britain.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			In reply to this post and your others below, any linking of povâ€™s on Brexit to flag waving and whether youâ€™re a patriot or not is simply wrong.
Isnâ€™t part of whatâ€™s great about our country is democracy and freedom of speech and something we all take great pride in?

Whether you like to admit it or not, a lot of people who voted to leave did so on a racist and anti-government ticket, how do I know that? Because Iâ€™ve lived it everyday since the vote, up here in Seaham a staunch Labour, former mining town were the vast majority voted to leave and when you ask why, they tell you it was because they were never going to support Cameron and what he wanted and were sick of foreigners coming and taking all the jobs. It wasnâ€™t based on fact, it was based on ignorance.
Are the Union flag waving idiots outside Parliament who abused the female MPâ€™s more of a patriot than Bluewolf because of what box they ticked on a piece of paper? No, no their not, 100% their not.
None of us know for sure how the next few years are going to pan out, we ALL hope for ALL our futures itâ€™s ok.
But please donâ€™t judge or label someone based on how hard they wave the Union flag or how loud they sing â€œGod save the Queenâ€
		
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You make a point that defines people who have concerns on the level of immigration into the UK as 'Racist' how exactly do you come to such a conclusion?   Many/most people who have concerns on the level of immigration are IMO not racist, they have concerns that too may people have been allowed to come into the country in too short a time scale and this has caused undesirable pressures on our services.  OK, there are also many people concerned that some immigrants are not; or have no intention of; integrating into UK society thus creating divided communities.  I don't believe either case is the result of Racism as they do not single out any particular race as being inferior in some way.

There will always be racists in society, just like there will be the overtly PC brigade  but I consider it a wild exaggeration to label the 'vast majority' who voted leave did it for racist reasons rather than genuine concerns on immigration.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You make a point that defines people who have concerns on the level of immigration into the UK as 'Racist' how exactly do you come to such a conclusion?   Many/most people who have concerns on the level of immigration are IMO not racist, they have concerns that too may people have been allowed to come into the country in too short a time scale and this has caused undesirable pressures on our services.  OK, there are also many people concerned that some immigrants are not; or have no intention of; integrating into UK society thus creating divided communities.  I don't believe either case is the result of Racism as they do not single out any particular race as being inferior in some way.

There will always be racists in society, just like there will be the overtly PC brigade  but I consider it a wild exaggeration to label the 'vast majority' who voted leave did it for racist reasons rather than genuine concerns on immigration.
		
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Because I live here and have spoken to them, itâ€™s gone from the odd racist/banter remark to full on insulting, I can only speak about the people of Seaham, not anywhere else.
Lived here 15yrs and in the last few years it seems to have become more acceptable to voice a racist opinion, especially in the pubs/working mens clubs/golf club when discussing Brexit.
They are not genuine concerns over immigration because when questioned on it 99% are unaffected it by it and you get the UKIP, Right Wing stereotypical answer.


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## Foxholer (Feb 12, 2019)

Sweep said:



			There you go again. Is it really beyond you to post in disagreement with someone without reverting to insults in the very first line? Would you have said that to my face? Is that how you react in person or are you just another keyboard warrior? Are you surprised people respond to you in kind?
Taking back control has nothing to do with my post. This wasnâ€™t about the central leave / remain debate. It was about entrenched views and nationalism as described in the post I was replying to.
What you call â€œmostâ€ cold, hard factsâ€ does not mean â€œallâ€. I am sure even you would accept that there have been some indisputable facts posted, that have been either treated with disdain or quite often on this forum, just not replied to.
In my experience (as I outlined when I wrote â€œ what I donâ€™t seeâ€) remainers will not accept any criticism of the EU. Oddly, I donâ€™t believe this was the case prior to the referendum but now their views have become entrenched. In their view it seems the EU can do no wrong. I see remainers supporting the EU in negotiations against their own country, defending the institution at all costs. That is their prerogative but it is not patriotic.
When you say that there â€œmay be some EU devoteesâ€ you are essentially  agreeing with my post that you described as â€œa load of twaddleâ€. Your view on remainers just wanting to maintain the status quo is just you telling people why they voted the way they did again. This is something I thought we had got past nationally months ago and on this forum a few thousand posts in the past.
The post I replied to described a nationalist as someone who believed his country can do no wrong. I said that I donâ€™t believe there is anyone here who thought like that. This was part of the post you trashed (not the bit you italicised). Part of the post you described as â€œa load of twaddleâ€. I suggest you come up with a name of a forummer you believe is a nationalist as described in the post I was replying to. If you canâ€™t I suggest you go away and reflect on your â€œload of twaddleâ€ comment and think about what you post and how you post it in the future.
		
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Simply more twaddle!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Simply more twaddle!
		
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As you like to point out to me, you are more than capable of posting without the need for insults.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2019)

A Nationalist is someone who favors Independence for their country so a Brexiteer would fit into this category as would SNP etc.
A Patriot is someone who tends to believe their country is better than others and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.  Not sure this really fits into the Brexit classifications.


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## Sweep (Feb 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			In reply to this post and your others below, any linking of povâ€™s on Brexit to flag waving and whether youâ€™re a patriot or not is simply wrong.
Isnâ€™t part of whatâ€™s great about our country is democracy and freedom of speech and something we all take great pride in?

Whether you like to admit it or not, a lot of people who voted to leave did so on a racist and anti-government ticket, how do I know that? Because Iâ€™ve lived it everyday since the vote, up here in Seaham a staunch Labour, former mining town were the vast majority voted to leave and when you ask why, they tell you it was because they were never going to support Cameron and what he wanted and were sick of foreigners coming and taking all the jobs. It wasnâ€™t based on fact, it was based on ignorance.
Are the Union flag waving idiots outside Parliament who abused the female MPâ€™s more of a patriot than Bluewolf because of what box they ticked on a piece of paper? No, no their not, 100% their not.
None of us know for sure how the next few years are going to pan out, we ALL hope for ALL our futures itâ€™s ok.
But please donâ€™t judge or label someone based on how hard they wave the Union flag or how loud they sing â€œGod save the Queenâ€
		
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Of course, which way you voted in the referendum does not in itself determine if you are a patriot. That is not what I am saying as I think you know. I am quite sure some who voted remain would still consider themselves patriotic. However, consistently supporting the â€œother sideâ€ in negotiations with your own country is not a patriotic act no matter how you dress it up. In this particular debate, consistently taking the side of the EU over your own country, consistently criticising your own country whilst not tolerating a peep about the EU is not being patriotic to Britain. We all know that deep inside, these people want the EU to win over the UK, if only to prove themselves right. That is one thing, but these people cannot go on to describe themselves as a patriot.
I am quite sure these days that it is possible to be patriotic to the EU / Europe however. After all, the EU has a flag and an anthem. So if they so wished, people could stand to attention while the flag is raised, the anthem is played, hand on heart and recite â€œGod save Donald Tuskâ€.
Other than that, you are back to telling people why they voted the way they did again.
I have to say, calling people racist because they are worried about their jobs is just plain wrong. The influx of foreign labour allowed by our membership of the EU has threatened the livelihoods of people who have lived and worked here all their lives. This influx was a political move, not race related. People are entitled to vote for this influx to end if they feel their livelihood is threatened. This isnâ€™t racist. Itâ€™s voting against a political practice. Remainers who bandy about the racist tag should be more careful and consider that peopleâ€™s livelihoods seem pretty high on their agenda when they claim Brexit will threaten them. 
Personally though I am not too fussed why people on either side of the debate voted the way they did. Because itâ€™s their choice and they donâ€™t have to explain it to you or anyone else. As you say, democracy is part of what is great about our country. The way someone votes is between him and the ballot box.


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## Sweep (Feb 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Simply more twaddle!
		
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Excellent reply. You must be really proud of yourself.


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## Foxholer (Feb 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			As you like to point out to me, you are more than capable of posting without the need for insults.
		
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*Personal* insults are a no-no imo. I don't believe describing *the content of a post* as the twaddle I believe it to be, is anywhere near the same! The former (personal insults) break forum rules; the latter (criticising - or in this case 'describing' the content of a post) does not - at least as far as I know! 

I believe the description was appropriate, but it would be a waste of (my) time pointing out why, when (I believe) that 'summary description' is apt! Like most posts on this forum, it was purely *my opinion* - so I've no problem if someone believes otherwise!


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## Sweep (Feb 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			A Nationalist is someone who favors Independence for their country so a Brexiteer would fit into this category as would SNP etc.
A Patriot is someone who tends to believe their country is better than others and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.  Not sure this really fits into the Brexit classifications.
		
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TBH I am not sure what a Nationalist is. I was responding to the definition  as outlined in the post I was replying to.
I donâ€™t think a patriot is necessarily someone who thinks their country is better than all others. I just think they are proud of it, they want to contribute to its success and as you say, prepared to defend it against enemies and detractors.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Of course, which way you voted in the referendum does not in itself determine if you are a patriot. That is not what I am saying as I think you know. I am quite sure some who voted remain would still consider themselves patriotic. However, consistently supporting the â€œother sideâ€ in negotiations with your own country is not a patriotic act no matter how you dress it up. In this particular debate, consistently taking the side of the EU over your own country, consistently criticising your own country whilst not tolerating a peep about the EU is not being patriotic to Britain. We all know that deep inside, these people want the EU to win over the UK, if only to prove themselves right. That is one thing, but these people cannot go on to describe themselves as a patriot.
I am quite sure these days that it is possible to be patriotic to the EU / Europe however. After all, the EU has a flag and an anthem. So if they so wished, people could stand to attention while the flag is raised, the anthem is played, hand on heart and recite â€œGod save Donald Tuskâ€.
Other than that, you are back to telling people why they voted the way they did again.
I have to say, calling people racist because they are worried about their jobs is just plain wrong. The influx of foreign labour allowed by our membership of the EU has threatened the livelihoods of people who have lived and worked here all their lives. This influx was a political move, not race related. People are entitled to vote for this influx to end if they feel their livelihood is threatened. This isnâ€™t racist. Itâ€™s voting against a political practice. Remainers who bandy about the racist tag should be more careful and consider that peopleâ€™s livelihoods seem pretty high on their agenda when they claim Brexit will threaten them.
Personally though I am not too fussed why people on either side of the debate voted the way they did. Because itâ€™s their choice and they donâ€™t have to explain it to you or anyone else. As you say, democracy is part of what is great about our country. The way someone votes is between him and the ballot box.
		
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What if you care so much about your Country and you believe they are completely wrong in what they are doing is damaging, does make you any less of a patriot? No it doesnâ€™t, you could argue the opposite.

As for the people worried about the jobs underlined bit, nope, youâ€™re assuming they are employed in the first place.

Iâ€™ll give you an example of the issues.

Sunday after playing we are watching the England v France match, bit of banter and rivalry starts and people give their thoughts on the French, then thereâ€™s a joke about not playing 6 Nations after Brexit and the Brexit conversation starts. Itâ€™s then pointed out to the most vocal brexiteers that we received a 40% grant from the EU for out new simulator last year and thereâ€™s no way weâ€™d of been able to build it with the grant, especially from a tory government, then the slagging of tories start, theyâ€™re then asked why they voted Brexit and once again the answer was â€œno way Iâ€™d support Cameron and Iâ€™m sick of all the Asians and Africans coming over and taking overâ€ (the actual words and descrpitions were not civil).
It was pointed out Africa and Asia were not part of Europe and a couple were asked about the threats to jobs when they hadnâ€™t done a days work since the pits closed, the answer to that? At least the NHS will get all that money they promised.

So unfortunately, no matter how it has or hasnâ€™t impacted people in different parts of the Country there are still lots of ignorant people up here in Seaham who are thinking Brexit is a white land of milk and honey.

I just hope we all benefit, all of us!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2019)

Sweep said:



			TBH I am not sure what a Nationalist is. I was responding to the definition  as outlined in the post I was replying to.
I donâ€™t think a patriot is necessarily someone who thinks their country is better than all others. I just think they are proud of it, they want to contribute to its success and as you say, prepared to defend it against enemies and detractors.
		
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So if I state I 100% agree with Bluewolf and then mention my 36yrs in the Army and still one of The Queenâ€™s Body Guard, I am to be classed as no longer a patriot?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



*Personal* insults are a no-no imo. I don't believe describing *the content of a post* as the twaddle I believe it to be, is anywhere near the same! The former (personal insults) break forum rules; the latter (criticising - or in this case 'describing' the content of a post) does not - at least as far as I know!

I believe the description was appropriate, but it would be a waste of (my) time pointing out why, when (I believe) that 'summary description' is apt! Like most posts on this forum, it was purely *my opinion* - so I've no problem if someone believes otherwise!
		
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Cant you see that if you accuse someone of talking 'Twaddle' you are insulting their intelligence, you are suggesting the person is stating an unrealistic view and as such is stupid.    Someone could respond to your post saying you are talking 'Bollocks' would that be an insult or only your post was being insulted.  That's a fine line you are drawing and I would err on the side you are insulting the poster.    Again, try and be less confrontational in your rejection of the post.


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## Foxholer (Feb 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			A Nationalist is someone who favors Independence for their country so a Brexiteer would fit into this category as would SNP etc.
A Patriot is someone who *tends to believe their country is better than others and* is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.  Not sure this really fits into the Brexit classifications.
		
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<From Oxford dictionary:>
Nationalist:
1Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

_â€˜their nationalism is tempered by a desire to join the European Unionâ€™_

More example sentences

1.1 Advocacy of or support for the political independence of a particular nation or people.
_â€˜Scottish nationalismâ€™_

Patriot:
A person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

_â€˜a true patriotâ€™_
<end definitions>

So the bold bit doesn't _necessarily_ apply - to either description. In fact, to me, it describes a 'deluded' person! i don't believe there is a country that is 'best' in every respect!
more importantly, both Brexiteers and Remainers could be described as 'patriots'!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So if I state I 100% agree with Bluewolf and then mention my 36yrs in the Army and still one of The Queenâ€™s Body Guard, I am to be classed as no longer a patriot?
		
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The two things are unrelated and not pertinent to the subject.   If you agree with BW then that makes you neither a Nationalist or Patriot.   Your Army career; although impressive is also irrelevant.


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## Sweep (Feb 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



*Personal* insults are a no-no imo. I don't believe describing *the content of a post* as the twaddle I believe it to be, is anywhere near the same! The former (personal insults) break forum rules; the latter (criticising - or in this case 'describing' the content of a post) does not - at least as far as I know!

I believe the description was appropriate, but it would be a waste of (my) time pointing out why, when (I believe) that 'summary description' is apt! Like most posts on this forum, it was purely *my opinion* - so I've no problem if someone believes otherwise!
		
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I suppose thatâ€™s one view.... if you are deliberately setting out to be rude and offensive.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The two things are unrelated and not pertinent to the subject.   If you agree with BW then that makes you neither a Nationalist or Patriot.   Your Army career although impressive is also irrelevant.
		
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Have I â€œdefendedâ€ my Country in the truest sense?
And Sweep has clearly told Bluewolf he is not a Patriot!

Personally as previously stated it is completely wrong, imo, to bring patriotism and nationalism into the discussion, itâ€™s lazy and an easy insult to throw out.


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## drdel (Feb 12, 2019)

Perhaps we could agree that patriotism and nationalism are probably flip sides of a very subjective 'coin' - defined only by how an individual sees themselves.

IMO it is not relevant to the Brexit debate.

In my view the issue is more about an undignified debate between the UK and the EU that is being played out between individuals more concerned with showboating in the media and juvenile writings on Twitter. Negotiations would normally take place largely in confidence. Now both sides are afraid of a loss of face in the media whose sole interest is only in creating sensational stories for a few seconds or headlines. The propoganda has caused the debate to become an unedifying show of bickering (much like some of the deliberately provocative language on here).

I'm interested in seeing more information on how we think the EU elections might cloud our thinking. We have Juncker,Tusk etc finishingtheir term probably being replaced by others from a small economy countries (because the EU is afraid to be seen as bullying small members). Such people seem to me to have little knowledge of international economics or global affairs. This is a risk to the EU and, by implication the UK  if we Remain tried to tightly. The EU has massive issues because Juncker insisted on 'printing' money to keep the Euro afloat, this huge debt means the risk from Italy,  Spain, France and Greece and fragile Germany will need further refinancing.

The UK would be dragged down so there is a lot more at stake than the Irish border; making it especially important that we can trade beyond the EU and halt the 'backstop' at a time of our choosing.


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## Sweep (Feb 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What if you care so much about your Country and you believe they are completely wrong in what they are doing is damaging, does make you any less of a patriot? No it doesnâ€™t, you could argue the opposite.

As for the people worried about the jobs underlined bit, nope, youâ€™re assuming they are employed in the first place.

Iâ€™ll give you an example of the issues.

Sunday after playing we are watching the England v France match, bit of banter and rivalry starts and people give their thoughts on the French, then thereâ€™s a joke about not playing 6 Nations after Brexit and the Brexit conversation starts. Itâ€™s then pointed out to the most vocal brexiteers that we received a 40% grant from the EU for out new simulator last year and thereâ€™s no way weâ€™d of been able to build it with the grant, especially from a tory government, then the slagging of tories start, theyâ€™re then asked why they voted Brexit and once again the answer was â€œno way Iâ€™d support Cameron and Iâ€™m sick of all the Asians and Africans coming over and taking overâ€ (the actual words and descrpitions were not civil).
It was pointed out Africa and Asia were not part of Europe and a couple were asked about the threats to jobs when they hadnâ€™t done a days work since the pits closed, the answer to that? At least the NHS will get all that money they promised.

So unfortunately, no matter how it has or hasnâ€™t impacted people in different parts of the Country there are still lots of ignorant people up here in Seaham who are thinking Brexit is a white land of milk and honey.

I just hope we all benefit, all of us!
		
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So basically you are basing your entire view of Brexit voters in your town on conversations overheard whilst watching rugby?
We all know there are genuine racists around. But using your logic you could claim a vote for remain is racist because it excludes people from outside the EU.
Maybe these people havenâ€™t worked since the pits closed because there are few jobs and those that are available are taken by the influx of foreign labour. Have you considered these peopleâ€™s concerns might be genuine?
If someoneâ€™s job is taken from them, it only matters in this context if that was a result of a political process. The nationality of the person who took it doesnâ€™t matter. More people competing for fewer jobs = unemployment.
Itâ€™s their right to vote against this influx if they wish. How do you think Trump got elected? If you live in the rust belt and have had a President in power for 8 years who ignored your plight as unemployed and someone comes along and says he will get your job back, who are you going to vote for? Is that racist? Of course not.
If someone voting against the influx of foreign labour is racist then the process of allowing the influx of labour must have been racist too. Neither is racist. Both are political.
If it wasnâ€™t political, how come it was something people could vote against?
And I am sorry, but just because you disagree with them doesnâ€™t make them ignorant. They probably think you are ignorant for not seeing their point.


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## Sweep (Feb 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Have I â€œdefendedâ€ my Country in the truest sense?
And Sweep has clearly told Bluewolf he is not a Patriot!

Personally as previously stated it is completely wrong, imo, to bring patriotism and nationalism into the discussion, itâ€™s lazy and an easy insult to throw out.
		
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To be fair, it was you who brought nationalism into it. I was talking about patriotism. And it wasnâ€™t intended as an insult. I just donâ€™t see how you can consider yourself a patriot and continually root for â€œthe other sideâ€ and have little if no faith in Britain.
Genuine question: training aside, would you feel as compelled to risk your life defending the EU rather than â€œQueen and Countryâ€?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2019)

Sweep said:



			To be fair, it was you who brought nationalism into it. I was talking about patriotism. And it wasnâ€™t intended as an insult. I just donâ€™t see how you can consider yourself a patriot and continually root for â€œthe other sideâ€ and have little if no faith in Britain.
Genuine question: training aside, would you feel as compelled to risk your life defending the EU rather than â€œQueen and Countryâ€?
		
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I took the queenâ€™s shilling and did as I was told, I didnâ€™t get a choice which banner in Bosnia or Kosovo I was working under, the commander in chiefs were multi national.
It tends to be civilians that issues with EU/NATO etc.

As for Seaham, as I said before the discussions experienced have been numerous and widespread over the last 3 years, the Rugby tale was just the latest experience.
We now have 4 foodbanks, was 1, other 3 have come about in the last 12 months.
We have very very few asians or africans in the area, we need to sort our own scum out before we blame everything on immigration.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I took the queenâ€™s shilling and did as I was told, I didnâ€™t get a choice which banner in Bosnia or Kosovo I was working under, the commander in chiefs were multi national.
It tends to be civilians that issues with EU/NATO etc.

As for Seaham, as I said before the discussions experienced have been numerous and widespread over the last 3 years, the Rugby tale was just the latest experience.
We now have 4 foodbanks, was 1, other 3 have come about in the last 12 months.
We have very very few asians or africans in the area, we need to sort our own scum out* before we blame everything on immigration*.
		
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There you go again!


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## drdel (Feb 12, 2019)

Meanwhile George Soros has written a thought provoking article!!


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## Hobbit (Feb 12, 2019)

Sweep said:



			To be fair, it was you who brought nationalism into it. I was talking about patriotism. And it wasnâ€™t intended as an insult. I just donâ€™t see how you can consider yourself a patriot and continually root for â€œthe other sideâ€ and have little if no faith in Britain.
Genuine question: training aside, would you feel as compelled to risk your life defending the EU rather than â€œQueen and Countryâ€?
		
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Why can't someone who wants the UK to Remain in the EU be patriotic? They consider that remaining is the best option for the UK.


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## Hobbit (Feb 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			Meanwhile George Soros has written a thought provoking article!!
		
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He certainly calls it as he sees it. I think he may well be right too.

As an aside, you have George Soros whose political meddling is spoken about in many countries where he's got involved, and on the other hand you have Arron Banks whose funding of Brexit has got him in hot water. Peas in a pod?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 12, 2019)

I saw the first line in the Oxford English dictionary re Nationalism and my immediate thought was how does that relate to India, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Malta, South Africa, Canada  and so on.


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## oxymoron (Feb 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			Perhaps we could agree that patriotism and nationalism are probably flip sides of a very subjective 'coin' - defined only by how an individual sees themselves.

IMO it is not relevant to the Brexit debate.

In my view the issue is more about an undignified debate between the UK and the EU that is being played out between individuals more concerned with showboating in the media and juvenile writings on Twitter. Negotiations would normally take place largely in confidence. Now both sides are afraid of a loss of face in the media whose sole interest is only in creating sensational stories for a few seconds or headlines. The propoganda has caused the debate to become an unedifying show of bickering (much like some of the deliberately provocative language on here).

I'm interested in seeing more information on how we think the EU elections might cloud our thinking. We have Juncker,Tusk etc finishingtheir term probably being replaced by others from a small economy countries (because the EU is afraid to be seen as bullying small members). Such people seem to me to have little knowledge of international economics or global affairs. This is a risk to the EU and, by implication the UK  if we Remain tried to tightly. The EU has massive issues because Juncker insisted on 'printing' money to keep the Euro afloat, this huge debt means the risk from Italy,  Spain, France and Greece and fragile Germany will need further refinancing.

The UK would be dragged down so there is a lot more at stake than the Irish border; making it especially important that we can trade beyond the EU and halt the 'backstop' at a time of our choosing.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is spot on , on a slightly different point , if we do extend the Brexit time line , do we still put up candidates in the EU elections that  i think take place in March ?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I saw the first line in the Oxford English dictionary re Nationalism and my immediate thought was how does that relate to India, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Malta, South Africa, Canada  and so on.
		
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What problem do you have with how it relates to them?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There you go again!
		
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Iâ€™m talking about MY experiences in Seaham, at no time have I said it is the same countrywide or I am correct, purely commenting on what Iâ€™ve seen, heard and discussed.


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## IanM (Feb 12, 2019)

https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/12/french-mps-vote-for-mandatory-eu-flags-in-classrooms

Any guess on when the EU Youth Uniforms are dished out?  Ok, I am joking, but wondering why a tradin gbloc needs a flag, and why it needs flags in classrooms?


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## IainP (Feb 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m talking about MY experiences in Seaham, at no time have I said it is the same countrywide or I am correct, purely commenting on what Iâ€™ve seen, heard and discussed.
		
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Paul, am not talking sides and I believe i understood the sentiment of your original post that mentioned racist reasons. I would highlight the phrase "a lot of people", a lot is a subjective term and in the context of multi millions of people there is a large scope for different interpretation. This may explain your post being interpreted not how you intended.
Cheers.


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## Sweep (Feb 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I took the queenâ€™s shilling and did as I was told, I didnâ€™t get a choice which banner in Bosnia or Kosovo I was working under, the commander in chiefs were multi national.
It tends to be civilians that issues with EU/NATO etc.

As for Seaham, as I said before the discussions experienced have been numerous and widespread over the last 3 years, the Rugby tale was just the latest experience.
We now have 4 foodbanks, was 1, other 3 have come about in the last 12 months.
We have very very few asians or africans in the area, we need to sort our own scum out before we blame everything on immigration.
		
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Did every person you refer to as scum vote leave?
If a white person in Seaham called a foreigner scum, would they be a racist?
Do you only refer to our own people as scum? If so, is that not racist?


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## Sweep (Feb 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Why can't someone who wants the UK to Remain in the EU be patriotic? They consider that remaining is the best option for the UK.
		
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To be fair, I think we have had that discussion.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Did every person you refer to as scum vote leave?
If a white person in Seaham called a foreigner scum, would they be a racist?
Do you only refer to our own people as scum? If so, is that not racist?
		
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Were did I associate â€œour scumâ€ with colour and every race will have scum of some sort, not really sure what youâ€™re getting at.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2019)

IanM said:



https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/12/french-mps-vote-for-mandatory-eu-flags-in-classrooms

Any guess on when the EU Youth Uniforms are dished out?  Ok, I am joking, but wondering why a tradin gbloc needs a flag, and why it needs flags in classrooms?
		
Click to expand...

And an anthem and an army.   Austria have offered their Navy.


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## Old Skier (Feb 12, 2019)

History has a nasty habit of repeating itself


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			History has a nasty habit of repeating itself
		
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European Empires have tended to end badly.


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## Mudball (Feb 13, 2019)

I hope all the Leavers who have been baying for Mark Carneys head are suddenly very happy with him as he has painted a potential â€˜golden ageâ€™ of Britain


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## IanM (Feb 13, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I hope all the Leavers who have been baying for Mark Carneys head are suddenly very happy with him as he has painted a potential â€˜golden ageâ€™ of Britain
		
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I didnt read the full speach, only saw the headline....  quite a reverse


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## User62651 (Feb 13, 2019)

IanM said:



			I didnt read the full speach, only saw the headline....  quite a reverse
		
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Contradicting reporting - FT says one thing, Telegraph (Brexit Gazette) another. Beeb has it per FT report -https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47209266


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1095466079344832512  - Peston captured it on twitter.

People hearing what they want to hear I think.


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## robinthehood (Feb 13, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I hope all the Leavers who have been baying for Mark Carneys head are suddenly very happy with him as he has painted a potential â€˜golden ageâ€™ of Britain
		
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I'd reckon that he didn't use the phrase 'golden age' at all


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2019)

Most of this stuff is just waffle and filling a void of 'news' based on fact.

We can all recognise that Brussels will be pushing things to the last moment because that has always been the EU tactics with any member's issue. It is the standard strategy of a 'committee' which seeks to avoid making a decision that might prove wrong.

They have continually pushed back the UK / PM because they (organisationally and structurally) are not equipped to really negotiate.

In this instance, I'm with the PM: we must hold our nerve and let it go to the wire - loose our nerve and we'll be royally screwed. It is not right and is causing a lot of problems that, unfortunately, will have lasting consequences for many people in UK *AND* in EU.  The pity and truth is that citizens' well being is too far down the list of priorities for Brussels to worry about

The EU was never going to negotiate in 'good faith' there are too many voices (same as in HoC) that maintaining the status quo is their lowest risk option.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Contradicting reporting - FT says one thing, Telegraph (Brexit Gazette) another. Beeb has it per FT report -https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47209266


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1095466079344832512  - Peston captured it on twitter.

People hearing what they want to hear I think.
		
Click to expand...

And you *want* to hear bad news.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2019)

Inflation down to 1.8%  now there's a bit of good news for the country although some naysayers on here will pour cold water over it.


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## robinthehood (Feb 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Inflation down to 1.8%  now there's a bit of good news for the country although some naysayers on here will pour cold water over it.
		
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Back on track after the 3% peak caused by vote leave.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Back on track after the 3% peak caused by vote leave.
		
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Hook line and sinker


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## robinthehood (Feb 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Hook line and sinker
		
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Yes you were,  the BOE is set a target of 2% inflation. It went up to over 3% after the EU referendum. Now it's back on target again. Not sure where the cold water is .


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes you were,  the BOE is set a target of 2% inflation. It went up to over 3% after the EU referendum. Now it's back on target again. *Not sure where the cold water is* .
		
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Vote Leave!


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## User62651 (Feb 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And you *want* to hear bad news.
		
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Wrong , why on earth would anyone want to hear bad news concerning their jobs, prosperity, children etc.
You need to give up on this personal vendetta....please.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 13, 2019)

Very good article on blinkered thinking and our intuitions.

https://medium.com/@koenfucius/blinkers-and-intuitions-b8e98b91d06b


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Wrong , why on earth would anyone want to hear bad news concerning their jobs, prosperity, children etc.
You need to give up on this personal vendetta....please.
		
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Sure,  although it's not a one way Road.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Very good article on blinkered thinking and our intuitions.

https://medium.com/@koenfucius/blinkers-and-intuitions-b8e98b91d06b

Click to expand...

Hopefully you learned something and will reduce the trolling.


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## Mudball (Feb 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And you *want* to hear bad news.
		
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I am with you on this... thats why I will not buying a Ford any time soon..  they are talking down Britain by saying no-deal will be catastrophic for them.   Who do they think they are..


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2019)

To those interested in supporting the UK's membership and continuing to pay into the EU you best hope we have deep pockets as the fragility is there because of Juncker's policy of unbridled QE....

Ludovic Subran, deputy chief economist at Allianz, told Bloomberg: â€œIf France stops consuming and Germany stops producing, you have a major problem in the eurozone.â€

Salman Ahmed, chief investment strategist at Lombard Oliver, told Bloomberg: â€œThe concern I have right now is in Europe. â€œItâ€™s clear China is going through a slowdown, but thereâ€™s also a strong amount of stimulus in the pipeline. However, in Europe, things are deteriorating quite fast.â€


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## robinthehood (Feb 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			To those interested in supporting the UK's membership and continuing to pay into the EU you best hope we have deep pockets as the fragility is there because of Juncker's policy of unbridled QE....

Ludovic Subran, deputy chief economist at Allianz, told Bloomberg: â€œIf France stops consuming and Germany stops producing, you have a major problem in the eurozone.â€

Salman Ahmed, chief investment strategist at Lombard Oliver, told Bloomberg: â€œThe concern I have right now is in Europe. â€œItâ€™s clear China is going through a slowdown, but thereâ€™s also a strong amount of stimulus in the pipeline. However, in Europe, things are deteriorating quite fast.â€
		
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To be fair, if Europe goes titsup.  We go with it regardless if we are in or out.


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			To be fair, if Europe goes titsup.  We go with it regardless if we are in or out.
		
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Not true. The UK has several economic levers at its disposal which the ECB and Euro does not.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2019)

I could have posted this in Random Irritations but I don't want that thread to become politicised:

We have a key customer in Germany. They have contacted me today to advise if we go out with no deal or even a deal that includes tariffs, then they will no longer buy from us. They don't want the hassle of paperwork, additional costs from tariffs. . They have only a few UK suppliers but they are telling all of them the same thing.

Other customers are starting to place orders to cover the leave date plus extra to avoid duties / tariffs. That is okay if one customer orders 3 months worth of stock in one go but when more and more do then it stuffs me for raw materials and prodcution time.  I'm trying to be as helpful as possible during this sensitive time for UK companies but I can't fit 50 days of production into 30 days.

One UK customer, actually about 50 miles from where we are, rang up to ask how Brexit will affect us supplying them. 'It wont, there are no issues.' 'Should we order earlier and take more in?' ' No, there is no need, your products contain no EU raw materials, we are 50 miles away so there are no tariffs' 'Are you sure we don't need to order more?' 

Times are starting to get a little stressful.


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I could have posted this in Random Irritations but I don't want that thread to become politicised:

We have a key customer in Germany. They have contacted me today to advise if we go out with no deal or even a deal that includes tariffs, then they will no longer buy from us. They don't want the hassle of paperwork, additional costs from tariffs. . They have only a few UK suppliers but they are telling all of them the same thing.

Other customers are starting to place orders to cover the leave date plus extra to avoid duties / tariffs. That is okay if one customer orders 3 months worth of stock in one go but when more and more do then it stuffs me for raw materials and prodcution time.  I'm trying to be as helpful as possible during this sensitive time for UK companies but I can't fit 50 days of production into 30 days.

One UK customer, actually about 50 miles from where we are, rang up to ask how Brexit will affect us supplying them. 'It wont, there are no issues.' 'Should we order earlier and take more in?' ' No, there is no need, your products contain no EU raw materials, we are 50 miles away so there are no tariffs' 'Are you sure we don't need to order more?' 

Times are starting to get a little stressful.
		
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Unfortunately there's a lot of misinformation, propaganda and down right ignorance causing panic in the minds or so-called intelligent people. Keep a steady nerve and good luck (for what its worth).


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## bluewolf (Feb 13, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I could have posted this in Random Irritations but I don't want that thread to become politicised:

We have a key customer in Germany. They have contacted me today to advise if we go out with no deal or even a deal that includes tariffs, then they will no longer buy from us. They don't want the hassle of paperwork, additional costs from tariffs. . They have only a few UK suppliers but they are telling all of them the same thing.

Other customers are starting to place orders to cover the leave date plus extra to avoid duties / tariffs. That is okay if one customer orders 3 months worth of stock in one go but when more and more do then it stuffs me for raw materials and prodcution time.  I'm trying to be as helpful as possible during this sensitive time for UK companies but I can't fit 50 days of production into 30 days.

One UK customer, actually about 50 miles from where we are, rang up to ask how Brexit will affect us supplying them. 'It wont, there are no issues.' 'Should we order earlier and take more in?' ' No, there is no need, your products contain no EU raw materials, we are 50 miles away so there are no tariffs' 'Are you sure we don't need to order more?' 

Times are starting to get a little stressful.
		
Click to expand...

Thread ban lifted for one post/..

I'm sorry that this sh1t5how is affecting you in this way. People start to panic when there is no certainty. This situation is a stain on both sides and will inflict damage to both sides. 
I hope you push through this without too much turbulence. 

Thread ban reinstated/..


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## robinthehood (Feb 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			Not true. The UK has several economic levers at its disposal which the ECB and Euro does not.
		
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ðŸ™„


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## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			Not true. The UK has several economic levers at its disposal which the ECB and Euro does not.
		
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Such as? Purely asking to ensure 'full disclosure' of course, not because of any doubt/suggestion of (unreasonable) bias.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

What kind of comment is that.  If you repute his reply then explain yourself.


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

I stated economic reality. You didn't bother to ask a question so what's your point. Since I do not know what you don't know about the ECB rules and Eurozone currency regs I can't hope to help.


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes you were,  the BOE is set a target of 2% inflation. It went up to over 3% after the EU referendum. Now it's back on target again. Not sure where the cold water is .
		
Click to expand...

It took 2 years, post-vote, to reach 3%, and is now at a 2 year low of 1.8%. 

Have a look at the rate of inflation in the EU countries during that time. The EU also had a 2% target, and are concerned it isn't there now. Have a look at the rate of inflation in the USA during that time.

So you're blaming Brexit? Best blame Brexit for the rest of the EU and the USA's rate too.

"And chicken-Licken said to Henny-Penny the sky is falling in." Oh, the wind is from the north. Let's blame Brexit! Utter rubbish.


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## Sweep (Feb 13, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I could have posted this in Random Irritations but I don't want that thread to become politicised:

We have a key customer in Germany. They have contacted me today to advise if we go out with no deal or even a deal that includes tariffs, then they will no longer buy from us. They don't want the hassle of paperwork, additional costs from tariffs. . They have only a few UK suppliers but they are telling all of them the same thing.

Other customers are starting to place orders to cover the leave date plus extra to avoid duties / tariffs. That is okay if one customer orders 3 months worth of stock in one go but when more and more do then it stuffs me for raw materials and prodcution time.  I'm trying to be as helpful as possible during this sensitive time for UK companies but I can't fit 50 days of production into 30 days.

One UK customer, actually about 50 miles from where we are, rang up to ask how Brexit will affect us supplying them. 'It wont, there are no issues.' 'Should we order earlier and take more in?' ' No, there is no need, your products contain no EU raw materials, we are 50 miles away so there are no tariffs' 'Are you sure we don't need to order more?' 

Times are starting to get a little stressful.
		
Click to expand...

It is interesting to hear about your German customer.
When importing there is definitely less paperwork and customs hassle for the customer when buying from within the EU, so I can see their point. For the exporter there is often extra paperwork when selling to the EU (EC Sales List, Intrastat etc). 
However, the paperwork / customs from you post no deal Brexit would only be the same as if they were improrting from anywhere else outside the EU. Maybe they only buy from the EU and they think they can get the same product, quality and service from elsewhere in the EU.
I suppose it will be the same for UK buyers of EU products.


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## Sweep (Feb 13, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Thread ban lifted for one post/..

I'm sorry that this sh1t5how is affecting you in this way. People start to panic when there is no certainty. This situation is a stain on both sides and will inflict damage to both sides.
I hope you push through this without too much turbulence.

Thread ban reinstated/..
		
Click to expand...

Told you ðŸ˜€


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I could have posted this in Random Irritations but I don't want that thread to become politicised:

We have a key customer in Germany. They have contacted me today to advise if we go out with no deal or even a deal that includes tariffs, then they will no longer buy from us. They don't want the hassle of paperwork, additional costs from tariffs. . They have only a few UK suppliers but they are telling all of them the same thing.

Other customers are starting to place orders to cover the leave date plus extra to avoid duties / tariffs. That is okay if one customer orders 3 months worth of stock in one go but when more and more do then it stuffs me for raw materials and prodcution time.  I'm trying to be as helpful as possible during this sensitive time for UK companies but I can't fit 50 days of production into 30 days.

One UK customer, actually about 50 miles from where we are, rang up to ask how Brexit will affect us supplying them. 'It wont, there are no issues.' 'Should we order earlier and take more in?' ' No, there is no need, your products contain no EU raw materials, we are 50 miles away so there are no tariffs' 'Are you sure we don't need to order more?' 

Times are starting to get a little stressful.
		
Click to expand...

I wonder what their position will be if the FX rate goes in their favour, or a change in Corporation Tax allows you to drop your prices? Seems a bit odd that they've made a decision before looking at all the factors.


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## robinthehood (Feb 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It took 2 years, post-vote, to reach 3%, and is now at a 2 year low of 1.8%. 

Have a look at the rate of inflation in the EU countries during that time. The EU also had a 2% target, and are concerned it isn't there now. Have a look at the rate of inflation in the USA during that time.

So you're blaming Brexit? Best blame Brexit for the rest of the EU and the USA's rate too.

"And chicken-Licken said to Henny-Penny the sky is falling in." Oh, the wind is from the north. Let's blame Brexit! Utter rubbish.
		
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Ah standard brexit thread reply, tell a porky or 2 , make it mildly insulting and hit post.


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Such as? Purely asking to ensure 'full disclosure' of course, not because of any doubt/suggestion of (unreasonable) bias.
		
Click to expand...

Some examples (if you're serious, rather than just looking to wind-up, 'full disclosure' is available to you at the LSE web, Economist, ECB reports/rules; stay away from Wiki gossip & non-refereed garbage) and other economic journals) ...

ECB is constrained by the debt of members.
It has control on the purchase of bonds which also must stay in proportion to national banks
Its stress tests have shown vulnerability; there is already huge concerns about Italy
German banks are already reacting to the amount of QE that Juncker authorised.
The Eurozone would not be able to devalue the currency because of the levels of member's debt
Eurozone members are not economically on par....etc.

Whereas...
UK can devalue the pound.
UK can sell bonds at sensible interest levels
UK BofE has successfully met stress levels
UK is a uniform economy.... etc


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I wonder what their position will be if the FX rate goes in their favour, or a change in Corporation Tax allows you to drop your prices? Seems a bit odd that they've made a decision before looking at all the factors.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps they were/are just hoping to screw the price !!


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			It is interesting to hear about your German customer.
When importing there is definitely less paperwork and customs hassle for the customer when buying from within the EU, so I can see their point. For the exporter there is often extra paperwork when selling to the EU (EC Sales List, Intrastat etc). 
However, the paperwork / customs from you post no deal Brexit would only be the same as if they were improrting from anywhere else outside the EU. Maybe they only buy from the EU and they think they can get the same product, quality and service from elsewhere in the EU.
I suppose it will be the same for UK buyers of EU products.
		
Click to expand...

Knowing his business he will buy his current raw materials and finished stock from other eu countries. He doesn't want the hassle of paperwork and the extra costs incurred by duties although he is making that judgement without knowing yet what the duty would  be ðŸ¤”. I'm trying to coax him into relaxing and not making a knee jerk reaction. Germans are not easy to coax though ðŸ˜„

Our products are not a major part of his business at the moment,  I was hoping they were going to be over time,  so I suspect he will just drop that product line from his range. He may look to replace us with an EU source but that will actually be quite tricky for him as there are not many producing what we do and they are already aligned with other German companies.


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2019)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47228959

An expert?

Maybe no one told him its already in use on the Estonia - Russian border, or that the EU already has an ongoing project to have technical solution in place on all EU borders by 2025. Mmm, 2019 to 2025 is 10 years? Don't think so.

No doubt some rabid Remainer will lap it up and run off and tell the king the sky is falling in.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I wonder what their position will be if the FX rate goes in their favour, or a change in Corporation Tax allows you to drop your prices? Seems a bit odd that they've made a decision before looking at all the factors.
		
Click to expand...

It's a panic move in my view and I'm trying to relax him without being patronising. We sell in euros so the fx rate doesn't affect him. It can give me some breathing space to manoeuvre in the short term but I don't like relying on fx rates as they are unpredictable and out of my control. What is in your favour one day can work against you the next.

Ths annoying thing is, more than annoying, is that other customers could well be searching right now for alternatives to us despite years of happy relations and good service all because our politicians are seeing how high they can #%Â¥$ up a wall. Uncertainty with UK  companies is starting to spread now across the EU as leaving becomes more real..


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ah standard brexit thread reply, tell a porky or 2 , make it mildly insulting and hit post.
		
Click to expand...

I qualified the data from several sources before posting. Feel free to go and look at the data too, and post up a link proving me wrong, if you can.... Alternatively, continue to post up rubbish.


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## robinthehood (Feb 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I qualified the data from several sources before posting. Feel free to go and look at the data too, and post up a link proving me wrong, if you can.... Alternatively, continue to post up rubbish.
		
Click to expand...

you first  as i don't believe you


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			you first  as i don't believe you
		
Click to expand...

Another post where you make a real contribution - why bother, or is it just a wind up?


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## Mudball (Feb 13, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I could have posted this in Random Irritations but I don't want that thread to become politicised:

We have a key customer in Germany. They have contacted me today to advise if we go out with no deal or even a deal that includes tariffs, then they will no longer buy from us. They don't want the hassle of paperwork, additional costs from tariffs. . They have only a few UK suppliers but they are telling all of them the same thing.

Other customers are starting to place orders to cover the leave date plus extra to avoid duties / tariffs. That is okay if one customer orders 3 months worth of stock in one go but when more and more do then it stuffs me for raw materials and prodcution time.  I'm trying to be as helpful as possible during this sensitive time for UK companies but I can't fit 50 days of production into 30 days.

One UK customer, actually about 50 miles from where we are, rang up to ask how Brexit will affect us supplying them. 'It wont, there are no issues.' 'Should we order earlier and take more in?' ' No, there is no need, your products contain no EU raw materials, we are 50 miles away so there are no tariffs' 'Are you sure we don't need to order more?' 

Times are starting to get a little stressful.
		
Click to expand...

We service a lot of European clients from the UK..  we r holding off all recruitment for the time being - though we will recruit in Europe. Me and my team role will be restricted to UK. So whoever FFS says that this Breshit affects other people .. this is a real issue for me. So if I m biased then donâ€™t blame me. Of course someone will come along and say winners and losers everywhere. All I say, we are hellbent on making losers out of winners (and the winners are far and few between)


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## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			Some examples (if you're serious, rather than just looking to wind-up, 'full disclosure' is available to you at the LSE web, Economist, ECB reports/rules; stay away from Wiki gossip & non-refereed garbage) and other economic journals) ...

ECB is constrained by the debt of members.
It has control on the purchase of bonds which also must stay in proportion to national banks
Its stress tests have shown vulnerability; there is already huge concerns about Italy
German banks are already reacting to the amount of QE that Juncker authorised.
The Eurozone would not be able to devalue the currency because of the levels of member's debt
Eurozone members are not economically on par....etc.

Whereas...
UK can devalue the pound.
UK can sell bonds at sensible interest levels
UK BofE has successfully met stress levels
UK is a uniform economy.... etc
		
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No, not looking for a wind-up. Merely actual facts/evidence.

Given the above (thanks btw)....

I'd query how UK (or the EU for that matter) could actively 'devalue' their curency in a floating market. Surely, it's the market that determines equivalence!

I certainly agree that UK has an advantage in that it is a 'single' economy (in spite of the perennial 'hangers on' north of Carlisle! ) But I'm pretty certain that they have ways around that.

Surely, it's not BofE that meets (or doesn't meet) stress tests - but the individual Banks. Agreed, Italian banks have issues (have they ever not?) but that doesn't seem to be 'out of control'. even Greece seems to be recovering, though with plenty of kicking and screaming! 

Does Junker authorise QE? My understanding is that it's solely the responsibility of the ECB Governing Council - in the same/similar way that BofE's actions are separated from HM Government. The future value of bonds may well be/is an issue, but, properly managed, not catastrophic.


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## Mudball (Feb 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			Some examples (if you're serious, rather than just looking to wind-up, 'full disclosure' is available to you at the LSE web, Economist, ECB reports/rules; stay away from Wiki gossip & non-refereed garbage) and other economic journals) ...

ECB is constrained by the debt of members.
It has control on the purchase of bonds which also must stay in proportion to national banks
Its stress tests have shown vulnerability; there is already huge concerns about Italy
German banks are already reacting to the amount of QE that Juncker authorised.
The Eurozone would not be able to devalue the currency because of the levels of member's debt
Eurozone members are not economically on par....etc.

Whereas...
*UK can devalue the pound.*
UK can sell bonds at sensible interest levels
UK BofE has successfully met stress levels
UK is a uniform economy.... etc
		
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GBP is a market driven currency unlike the Chinese currency, so if my economics is right, the BoE canâ€™t â€˜devalueâ€™ it.. it can get devalued if the market thinks itâ€™s too risky or otherwise. 
BoE can sell Bonds, again T-bond rates are marked to market, so if the market thinks risks are too high, the rates will go up. 

We could sell some gold if we had it.

I agree stress tests are fine, however if BoE keeps higher capital adequacy ratios then banks will raise interest rates to deter people from taking loans. (Unless BoE forces banks via negative rates) 

with banks moving overseas that will reduce some currency exposure. 

I have a lot of confidence in Mark C and what the BoE is doing. I would not be surprised if we have an interest cut in post no-deal just to keep things moving. They may choose sentiments over inflation in the short term.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ah standard brexit thread reply, tell a porky or 2 , make it mildly insulting and hit post.
		
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You should know.


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## Slab (Feb 14, 2019)

Out of curiosity have we anyone on the forum that voted to leave and are now aware of serious potential personal impact that they didn't consider at the time?

When I read about the latest firm to say they may just jack it in and move out of the UK (Ford) I cant help wondering that plenty Ford workers voted to leave (& plenty will have voted to remain) Would anything have changed knowing your job was on the line? 

Prior to the vote did your employers make it known what the repercussions may be for either result and if so did it influence your vote?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2019)

Slab said:



			Out of curiosity have we anyone on the forum that voted to leave and are now aware of serious potential personal impact that they didn't consider at the time?

When I read about the latest firm to say they may just jack it in and move out of the UK (Ford) I cant help wondering that plenty Ford workers voted to leave (& plenty will have voted to remain) Would anything have changed knowing your job was on the line?

Prior to the vote did your employers make it known what the repercussions may be for either result and if so did it influence your vote?
		
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Ford are jumping on the Brexit bandwagon IMO. They have recently been talking about removing or severely cutting down their European operations and not just in the UK.  Look at the attached.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-jobs-uk-europe-turnaround-plan-a8720621.html


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## Hobbit (Feb 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			you first  as i don't believe you
		
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There's a shock! Another one of your soundbite posts with nothing to back it up. One of the data sources I referenced was the ONS. Now rather than change your nappy, and do your leg work for you, as I said get off your behind an qualify your original post. The reality is the facts are readily available, and just go to prove your hysteria.

BTW, the sky isn't falling down.


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## robinthehood (Feb 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There's a shock! Another one of your soundbite posts with nothing to back it up. One of the data sources I referenced was the ONS. Now rather than change your nappy, and do your leg work for you, as I said get off your behind an qualify your original post. The reality is the facts are readily available, and just go to prove your hysteria.

BTW, the sky isn't falling down.
		
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Lol What hysteria ? I'm not  interested in tit for tat link posting. I know categorically you posted BS and  That's enough for me . 
And ffs look up when to use soundbite


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ford are jumping on the Brexit bandwagon IMO. They have recently been talking about removing or severely cutting down their European operations and not just in the UK.  Look at the attached.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-jobs-uk-europe-turnaround-plan-a8720621.html

Click to expand...

Can I ask a serious question? Not aimed directly at you, but, obviously we all hope that Brexit is positive for Britain as it will happen, but it seems everytime an article or comment is posted like the one you answered or Lord T posted that people post that either itâ€™s an excuse or companies are being lazy or theyâ€™re wrong about Brexit.
Is it not possible that theyâ€™re right and it is Brexit and the uncertainty of how weâ€™ll leave is causing it.
I accept Ford and other big companies will/may use Brexit as an excuse, but the impact on Lord Tâ€™s business canâ€™t be written off as a lack of understanding or the other owner being lazy or any other reason, to them itâ€™s fact and we have no idea if it could cost him his business or job losses if he does nothing and â€œholds his nerveâ€ just like we have to put our interests first, in their mind, so do they.
The leavers over positivity is as bad as the remainers negativity at times.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 14, 2019)

Brexit has already cost many jobs.
Leavers should try telling them to 'hold their nerve'.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 14, 2019)

Ford have been taking jobs out of the UK for decades... Using platforms and policies from Brussels to do so... Was anyone jumping up and down asking what's going on during those times?


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47228959

An expert?

Maybe no one told him its already in use on the Estonia - Russian border, or that the EU already has an ongoing project to have technical solution in place on all EU borders by 2025. Mmm, 2019 to 2025 is 10 years? Don't think so.

No doubt some rabid Remainer will lap it up and run off and tell the king the sky is falling in.
		
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Have you actually read about how that (Estonia/Rusia) system actually works? It's actually simply a glorified(?) booking system with a declaration included.

And Estonia is actually building (or at least planning to build) a 2.5m barbed wire topped fence along all but some wetland areas of the shared border. It's even considering applying to EU to finance the cost - originally estimated at 79m Euros, recently re-estimated at 197m Euros.

So doesn't seem a great example of either a technology based  solution, nor the sort of border desired by the 2 parts of Ireland! 
https://financialobserver.eu/recent...eu-co-financing-of-border-fence-construction/


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## Sweep (Feb 14, 2019)

Harold Wilson managed to devalue the pound.


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## Sweep (Feb 14, 2019)

Yet more semantics from Parliament today with yet another days debate ending with yet another meaningless vote. Meanwhile the nation and practically the whole of Europe waits and worries over Brexit.
Itâ€™s just pure arrogance now. They should just get on with it and deliver what the electorate instructed.


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## Mudball (Feb 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Harold Wilson managed to devalue the pound.
		
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Good point... but that was a different world than today... We operated a fixed market rate then while we currently have a market rate now.    You can read more here
https://commonslibrary.parliament.u...pound-in-your-pocket-devaluation-50-years-on/ 
and a bit here > https://www.schroders.com/nl/nl/par...aluation-how-the-lessons-of-1967-apply-today/


Although not entirely attributable to the cut in the poundâ€™s value, inflation nearly tripled between 1967 and 1970. And while devaluation did provide a short-term boost to the British economy, growth remained below the levels of the countryâ€™s international competitors. Given international supply chains, this will impacts things made in the UK. For instance, how many parts used in British-made cars are imported from abroad? In other words, will the likely increase in sales abroad, due to a more competitive exchange rate, be offset by an increase in the cost of production because imported parts and labour become more expensive?  

In the age of rose tinted empire, GBP with a fixed exchange rate was $4.87 per Â£1. Following the War, as part of the Bretton Woods system, the pound was briefly fixed at $4.03 per Â£1 until 1949 when it was devalued by 30% to $2.80.  Wilson devalued the currency in 1967 The collapse of the Bretton Woods system in 1971 led to the pound floating on international markets. Since then the pound has never regained its 1967 level of $2.80. Today Â£1 is worth around half that at $1.31 or lower 

On a personal level, Supermarkets bring most of fresh produce from outside the UK, so be prepared for HID to give you a proper hiding when a essentials increase in price.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Can I ask a serious question? Not aimed directly at you, but, obviously we all hope that Brexit is positive for Britain as it will happen, but it seems everytime an article or comment is posted like the one you answered or Lord T posted that people post that either itâ€™s an excuse or companies are being lazy or theyâ€™re wrong about Brexit.
Is it not possible that theyâ€™re right and it is Brexit and the uncertainty of how weâ€™ll leave is causing it.
I accept Ford and other big companies will/may use Brexit as an excuse, but the impact on Lord Tâ€™s business canâ€™t be written off as a lack of understanding or the other owner being lazy or any other reason, to them itâ€™s fact and we have no idea if it could cost him his business or job losses if he does nothing and â€œholds his nerveâ€ just like we have to put our interests first, in their mind, so do they.
The leavers over positivity is as bad as the remainers negativity at times.
		
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OK, that's a fair comment and you are correct that some businesses will decide to move operations for what ever reason they feel necessary, Brexit being one of them and after all the negative spin given by parts of the establishment who could blame then for being concerned.   I can only comment on posts that people put on here and if I feel there is more to the decisions businesses make then I may decide to express my view and show any evidence I find to substantiate that view.   In this case I have previously noticed Ford making statements regarding their European operations and feel it pertinent to express this as relevant.   You of course are free to believe what you wish.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Brexit has already cost many jobs.
Leavers should try telling them to 'hold their nerve'.
		
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Who are 'Them' ?


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2019)

Mudball said:





Sweep said:



			Harold Wilson managed to devalue the pound.
		
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... We operated a fixed market rate then while we currently have a market rate now.  ...
		
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Spot on!
I mentioned that it was 'the market' that determined the rate of both the UKP and the Euro in my post that quoted drdel's expanded comments. It's practically inconceivable that UK would return to a fixed rate, which would be the only way to 'actively devalue' the UKP. Though economic policy and events can and does mean that 'the market' may determine any currency to be worth more or less than the present value.


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## Mudball (Feb 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Who are 'Them' ?
		
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This might bring joy to you...  https://money.cnn.com/interactive/news/economy/brexit-jobs-tracker/ 
Acc to it, while we have lost jobs in some sectors, we have added jobs overall since Brexit.    Though it is pointless to tell someone in Retail to 'get on their bike' and get a job in Insurance  or retrain as a nurse


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 14, 2019)

Mudball said:



			This might bring joy to you...  https://money.cnn.com/interactive/news/economy/brexit-jobs-tracker/ 
Acc to it, while we have lost jobs in some sectors, we have added jobs overall since Brexit.    Though it is pointless to tell someone in Retail to 'get on their bike' and get a job in Insurance  or retrain as a nurse
		
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I don't think the numbers alone give an accurate picture. I'd be interested to see the trend in retail jobs in the years before the referendum. While I'm sure that jobs in some sectors will be lost due to Brexit I'm not sure retail is one of them. Pressure from online sales is by far a bigger factor than Brexit in my opinion.


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2019)

Mudball said:



			This might bring joy to you...  https://money.cnn.com/interactive/news/economy/brexit-jobs-tracker/
Acc to it, while we have lost jobs in some sectors, we have added jobs overall since Brexit.    Though it is pointless to tell someone in Retail to 'get on their bike' and get a job in Insurance  or retrain as a nurse
		
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The old expression mentioning 'Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics' certainly applies here!

And, FWIW, I'd like to know what the stats for the equivalent period BEFORE the EU Referendum was before deciding whether the referendum actually had any effect or not!

Like Abraham Wald suggested in his 'bomber damage assessment', it's not always the 'obvious evidence/conclusion' that's most important.

Edit: ColchesterFC beat me to it!


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## Mudball (Feb 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			The old expression mentioning 'Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics' certainly applies here!
		
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Ahh you guys are at it again.. talking down Britian when the Stats show that unemployment is down, inflation is down.  yes some Rats are leaving, but that is because they always wanted to leave and are just using Breshit as an excuse.   

... Oops, I just wrote Socket's response.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, that's a fair comment and you are correct that some businesses will decide to move operations for what ever reason they feel necessary, Brexit being one of them and after all the negative spin given by parts of the establishment who could blame then for being concerned.   I can only comment on posts that people put on here and if I feel there is more to the decisions businesses make then I may decide to express my view and show any evidence I find to substantiate that view.   In this case I have previously noticed Ford making statements regarding their European operations and feel it pertinent to express this as relevant.   You of course are free to believe what you wish.
		
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Trying to be very careful not to reply without individuals seeing it as a dig, I agree with your post and I also voted leave, I just donâ€™t see any issue with people like Bluewolf and Sweep coming from both sides, the problem comes when good informative posts are simply dismissed out of hand due to the fact of who posted them.
If anything I believe weâ€™ve gone backwards as a Country since the vote, there is less tolerance and more ignorance and have no idea how long it will take until the Country as whole is in the right place or if it ever will be.
Worrying times ahead imo.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Ahh you guys are at it again.. talking down Britian when the Stats show that unemployment is down, inflation is down.  yes some Rats are leaving, but that is because they always wanted to leave and are just using Breshit as an excuse.

... *Oops, I just wrote Socket's response*.
		
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Smart ass comment that achieved nothing but a cheap dig.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Trying to be very careful not to reply without individuals seeing it as a dig, I agree with your post and I also voted leave, I just donâ€™t see any issue with people like Bluewolf and Sweep coming from both sides,* the problem comes when good informative posts are simply dismissed out of hand due to the fact of who posted them.*
If anything I believe weâ€™ve gone backwards as a Country since the vote, there is less tolerance and more ignorance and have no idea how long it will take until the Country as whole is in the right place or if it ever will be.
Worrying times ahead imo.
		
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Are you suggesting I do this?   If so then please show where.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you suggesting I do this?   If so then please show where.
		
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No, no, no....... this is exactly what Iâ€™m on about, itâ€™s dificult to respond on here directly without people becoming sensitive, sometimes people are just expressing an opinion.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, no, no....... this is exactly what Iâ€™m on about, itâ€™s dificult to respond on here directly without people becoming sensitive, sometimes people are just expressing an opinion.
		
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That's fine... Just asking.


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## Hobbit (Feb 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, no, no....... this is exactly what Iâ€™m on about, itâ€™s dificult to respond on here directly without people becoming sensitive, sometimes people are just expressing an opinion.
		
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That's part of the problem. People using opinions as facts, or building a new fact from from sketchy formless facts, or spinning a fact into something else.

Take Robin-whats-his-name's fact that inflation hit 3% after the referendum vote. He's not wrong, it did. But it took 2+years after the vote to hit 3% and the whole world's inflation rate also rose at the same time. Give or take a few percentage points either way its a world thing that impacted the UK, not wholly a Brexit thing. In fact, if you look at the inflation rate across Europe you will see that Brexit, probably, added a few 0.1's to the rate, that's all.

Blaming Brexit for all the ills is just plain lazy and/or hysteria. Brexit will cause some serious problems, catastrophic problems, in some areas but blaming Brexit for everything... oh c'mon, be grown up and intelligent about it instead of grabbing at every little issue and shouting "Brexit's to blame.".


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## robinthehood (Feb 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That's part of the problem. People using opinions as facts, or building a new fact from from sketchy formless facts, or spinning a fact into something else.

Take Robin-whats-his-name's fact that inflation hit 3% after the referendum vote. He's not wrong, it did. But it took 2+years after the vote to hit 3% and the whole world's inflation rate also rose at the same time. Give or take a few percentage points either way its a world thing that impacted the UK, not wholly a Brexit thing. In fact, if you look at the inflation rate across Europe you will see that Brexit, probably, added a few 0.1's to the rate, that's all.

Blaming Brexit for all the ills is just plain lazy and/or hysteria. Brexit will cause some serious problems, catastrophic problems, in some areas but blaming Brexit for everything... oh c'mon, be grown up and intelligent about it instead of grabbing at every little issue and shouting "Brexit's to blame.".
		
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Imagine if you could back your claim up.  Sorry still BS . You know this is readily available info don't you......Not something you just googled or probably did just Google.


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2019)

Mudball said:



			... Oops, I just wrote Socket's response.
		
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I don't fully understand what you mean by the above. Please explain.


Mudball said:



			Ahh you guys are at it again.. talking down Britian when the Stats show that unemployment is down, inflation is down.  yes some Rats are leaving, but that is because they always wanted to leave and are just using Breshit as an excuse.
...
		
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I'm certainly NOT talking down UK! I agree that inflation and unemployment are down. I'm just (reasonably imo) cynical about the ASSUMED 'causes'!


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## drdel (Feb 14, 2019)

Most international companies with operations  across Europe already know that its very hard to restructure French and German operations. The UK is much easier to downsize/rationalise.

Ford Europe has been having profitability issues for some time, partly because of way its accounts are dependent how the global company 'HQ loads costs on the European operations for tax purposes  - I'm afraid Brexit is a useful scapegoat at the right time.

There will be many more companies who choose to hide bad news in the same way.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 14, 2019)

Anna Soubry upping the anti in the Commons today.

Government cabinet papers saying that Brexit will be an absolute financial disaster.....seemingly.


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## Mudball (Feb 14, 2019)

One for the T-shirt


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## Sweep (Feb 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Trying to be very careful not to reply without individuals seeing it as a dig, I agree with your post and I also voted leave, I just donâ€™t see any issue with people like Bluewolf and Sweep coming from both sides, the problem comes when good informative posts are simply dismissed out of hand due to the fact of who posted them.
If anything I believe weâ€™ve gone backwards as a Country since the vote, there is less tolerance and more ignorance and have no idea how long it will take until the Country as whole is in the right place or if it ever will be.
Worrying times ahead imo.
		
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I agree with this post. The only thing that worries me about it is that it appears I am seen to be on the far edge of the leave side ðŸ˜€
I agree we have gone backwards as a country over the past few years, but I donâ€™t think it is entirely due to the referendum and subsequent upset, though it certainly hasnâ€™t helped. I have to say I donâ€™t live in an area that is affected by intolerance or bigotry and those that do may be better placed to disagree. However, I think this is just an extension of a general trend that was already underway. People seem to have less patience and are much less considerate than they were just a few years ago. Just a drive on our roads will demonstrate this clearly.
Social media including forums like this, though not entirely to blame, do have to take some responsibility in my view. Whilst we all love chatting with others who share a common interest,  its very easy to â€œtalkâ€ to people in a way you would never dream of speaking to them face to face. I am as guilty of this as anyone. I think we all are if we are honest. I hasten to add that this is not the fault of the social media platform itself. Itâ€™s us. Itâ€™s how we use it.
As far as Brexit is concerned, I remain amazed at how divisive it is and how entrenched people have become in their particular view. I remember the day before the referendum chatting with my brother who was a fairly strong remainer. We had enjoyed some discussions in the weeks before the vote. My brother thought leave would win. I thought otherwise. We both agreed we would soon know the result and agreed we would have to accept it and carry on. My brother did and I am amazed at the strength of feeling from remainers, which I think in return has strengthened the resolve of leavers, as has the frustration with the governments handling of the whole affair.
Whilst I remain hopeful for a better country after we leave I am not optimistic about the end of this affair being a cure all.


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## Sweep (Feb 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anna Soubry upping the anti in the Commons today.

Government cabinet papers saying that Brexit will be an absolute financial disaster.....seemingly.
		
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Shame she saw fit to stand for election on a manifesto she then betrayed. Hopefully she will be deselected before the next election. Any MP on either side of the debate who acts against the manifesto they were elected upon has betrayed their own constituents and should in my view resign and stand on issues they actually believe in.


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## Sweep (Feb 14, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Good point... but that was a different world than today... We operated a fixed market rate then while we currently have a market rate now.    You can read more here
https://commonslibrary.parliament.u...pound-in-your-pocket-devaluation-50-years-on/ 
and a bit here > https://www.schroders.com/nl/nl/par...aluation-how-the-lessons-of-1967-apply-today/


Although not entirely attributable to the cut in the poundâ€™s value, inflation nearly tripled between 1967 and 1970. And while devaluation did provide a short-term boost to the British economy, growth remained below the levels of the countryâ€™s international competitors. Given international supply chains, this will impacts things made in the UK. For instance, how many parts used in British-made cars are imported from abroad? In other words, will the likely increase in sales abroad, due to a more competitive exchange rate, be offset by an increase in the cost of production because imported parts and labour become more expensive? 

In the age of rose tinted empire, GBP with a fixed exchange rate was $4.87 per Â£1. Following the War, as part of the Bretton Woods system, the pound was briefly fixed at $4.03 per Â£1 until 1949 when it was devalued by 30% to $2.80.  Wilson devalued the currency in 1967 The collapse of the Bretton Woods system in 1971 led to the pound floating on international markets. Since then the pound has never regained its 1967 level of $2.80. Today Â£1 is worth around half that at $1.31 or lower

On a personal level, Supermarkets bring most of fresh produce from outside the UK, so be prepared for HID to give you a proper hiding when a essentials increase in price.
		
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The problem that faced Wilson was that he was faced with a very strong dollar that the GBP Â£ could not maintain its place with. However, history has pretty much condemned the move as a disaster that did not even begin to tackle the root causes of the problems of the day.
Whilst it is correct to say a devaluation is possible, itâ€™s not practical for the reasons you have highlighted and even if it was no government / BoE would even begin to consider it now. That said, we are a universe away from a Britain in Wilsonâ€™s day, as is the rest of the world.


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Shame she saw fit to stand for election on a manifesto she then betrayed. Hopefully she will be deselected before the next election. Any MP on either side of the debate who acts against the manifesto they were elected upon has *betrayed their own constituents* and should in my view resign and stand on issues they actually believe in.
		
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Surely any (Conservative) MP elected in a constituency that voted Remain has the dilemma that they have 'betrayed their own constituents' also!

MPs are Representatives, not Delegates, so are, in fact, free to make their own decisions - having regard to/being fully aware of any consequences.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Shame she saw fit to stand for election on a manifesto she then betrayed. Hopefully she will be deselected before the next election. Any MP on either side of the debate who acts against the manifesto they were elected upon has betrayed their own constituents and should in my view resign and stand on issues they actually believe in.
		
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That would be half the Tory and Labour party MP's then.


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## Sweep (Feb 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That would be half the Tory and Labour party MP's then. 

Click to expand...

Yes it would. Which may go to some way to explain why we are in the mess we are in.


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## Sweep (Feb 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Surely any (Conservative) MP elected in a constituency that voted Remain has the dilemma that they have 'betrayed their own constituents' also!

MPs are Representatives, not Delegates, so are, in fact, free to make their own decisions - having regard to/being fully aware of any consequences.
		
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I agree, itâ€™s a dilemma and not just for the Conservatives. However the party (parties) stood for election on a manifesto. Their constituents are entitled to believe they would stand by this manifesto if elected. If their constituents were so against the referendum result behind enacted they had the choice to vote Lib Dem. At least they (and the SNP) were true to their word on their intentions on this issue at least.


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## Old Skier (Feb 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anna Soubry upping the anti in the Commons today.

Government cabinet papers saying that Brexit will be an absolute financial disaster.....seemingly.
		
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And withdrawn her amendment.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Surely any (Conservative) MP elected in a constituency that voted Remain has the dilemma that they have 'betrayed their own constituents' also!

*MPs are Representatives*, not Delegates, so are, in fact, free to make their own decisions - having regard to/being fully aware of any consequences.
		
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Does this not mean they should represent their constituents view.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Does this not mean they should represent their constituents view.
		
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That's a good discussion point. Largely yes but there are times when it is not possible if their views conflict too greatly, like now.

If sufficient constituents disagree then next election they vote them out. That's the theory anyway. In reality.............?


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*Does this *<word 'not' eliminate to ensure clarity>* mean they should represent their constituents* view.
		
Click to expand...

No! That would mean they were 'Delegates', not 'Representatives'

So bold bit...Yes; whole sentence...Not necessarily!


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## Old Skier (Feb 14, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If sufficient constituents disagree then next election they vote them out. That's the theory anyway. In reality.............?
		
Click to expand...

If only


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No! That would mean they were 'Delegates', not 'Representatives'

So bold bit...Yes; whole sentence...Not necessarily!
		
Click to expand...

Stop the silly punctuation policeing, it's petty and unnecessary.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No! That would mean they were 'Delegates', not 'Representatives'

So bold bit...Yes; whole sentence...Not necessarily!
		
Click to expand...

If my job/task is to represent an organisation then I should be seen to be selling their values and aims.  If I am delegated to represent them then what's the difference, it just means I have been chosen to represent them.


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If my job/task is to represent an organisation then I should be seen to be selling their values and aims.  If I am delegated to represent them then what's the difference, it just means I have been chosen to represent them.
		
Click to expand...

That's not what an MP does though! An MP represents upwards of 40k folk with a complete array of values and aims.

Here's an expanded explanation. http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/mps-and-political-artiesp

Edit: Further digging has uncovered the fact that the opposite interpretation of representative/delegate can also apply! But the above link confirms my understanding of how MPs work.
Here's another demonstration of the role, difference and reasons - on  completely unrelated matter. https://www.iaindale.com/articles/a-question-for-john-redwood-are-mps-representatives-or-delegates


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Stop the silly punctuation policeing, it's petty and unnecessary.
		
Click to expand...

It wasn't punctuation policing! The meaning in your post was fine. But when I replied with Yes/No options, the clarification was required - *for my post*.

I hope you don't bruise as easily as you (seem to) take offence!


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## adam6177 (Feb 15, 2019)

Headline on BBC today in relation to RBS:

"RBS warns of BREXIT harm as profits double".

Double!


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## drdel (Feb 15, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Headline on BBC today in relation to RBS:

"RBS warns of BREXIT harm as profits double".

Double!
		
Click to expand...

Last year they made Â£1 this year its Â£2!!!!!!


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## adam6177 (Feb 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			Last year they made Â£1 this year its Â£2!!!!!!
		
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ha ha close.... Â£1.62bn up from Â£752m.... "despite brexit".


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## Mudball (Feb 15, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			ha ha close.... Â£1.62bn up from Â£752m.... "despite brexit".
		
Click to expand...

Well Brexit hasnt fully bitten. His views was more forward looking.  Brexit is a big impact for RBS as it is now a UK focussed bank rather than worldwide as in the past.  As a  shareholder i worry about it, so exited them. unfortunately did it before the divided annoucment # palmface.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



*Well Brexit hasnt fully bitten. *His views was more forward looking.  Brexit is a big impact for RBS as it is now a UK focussed bank rather than worldwide as in the past.  As a  shareholder i worry about it, so exited them. unfortunately did it before the divided annoucment # palmface.
		
Click to expand...

So it could get even better ðŸ˜‰


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## Mudball (Feb 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So it could get even better ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

I like the fact you read (or chose to ignore) anything after the first line. Business that primarily rely on UK will see the impact even more. If you happen to listen to the Lady MD of a chemical company on QT, you would know more where the shoe is biting 

https://apple.news/AVtUe4x6MQFewibb9O8KapQ. 

I canâ€™t believe BBC is letting such people on its panel.. everyone just blames Brexit. 

Finally for another data point as it has been pointed out in the past that ROIâ€™s biggest trading partner is the UK and so it would want a better deal (ironically Leavers donâ€™t apply the same logic when we want to leave our biggest trading block) .. ROIs share of export to UK fell as they start looking elsewhere.. 

https://apple.news/A1dxhnt9MSFGOAH-ARX4npQ


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I like the fact you read (or chose to ignore) anything after the first line. Business that primarily rely on UK will see the impact even more. If you happen to listen to the Lady MD of a chemical company on QT, you would know more where the shoe is biting

https://apple.news/AVtUe4x6MQFewibb9O8KapQ.

I canâ€™t believe BBC is letting such people on its panel.. everyone just blames Brexit.

Finally for another data point as it has been pointed out in the past that ROIâ€™s biggest trading partner is the UK and so it would want a better deal (ironically Leavers donâ€™t apply the same logic when we want to leave our biggest trading block) .. ROIs share of export to UK fell as they start looking elsewhere..

https://apple.news/A1dxhnt9MSFGOAH-ARX4npQ

Click to expand...

I find you hard to follow. I replied (tongue in cheek) to a post you made regarding RBS and now you are going on about question time  and Ireland. Try to keep the debate on track otherwise it becomes chaotic.


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## Mudball (Feb 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I find you hard to follow. I replied (tongue in cheek) to a post you made regarding RBS and now you are going on about question time  and Ireland. Try to keep the debate on track otherwise it becomes chaotic.
		
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If that was tounge in cheek then I can ignore it as banter .. but tbh sometimes it is difficult to distinguish when you are tounge in cheek, making a emotional argument, making a fact based point or just having a go at someone because they donâ€™t agree with your point-of-view ..


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



			If that was tounge in cheek then I can ignore it as banter .. but tbh sometimes it is difficult to distinguish when you are tounge in cheek, making a emotional argument, making a fact based point or just having a go at someone because they donâ€™t agree with your point-of-view ..
		
Click to expand...

The winking emcom was a big fat clue.
If you are observant you will notice I don't have a go at anyone because they don't agree with my point of-view, I only have a go when attacked or insulted, maybe you can look back at previous posts and observe it.


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## Mudball (Feb 16, 2019)

FlyBMI goes into admin.. among other things it blames Brexit..  Keep calm and blame Breshit


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## SocketRocket (Feb 16, 2019)

I hear the EU are now blaming Brexit for the UK leaving. All jumping on the bandwagon now.


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## Old Skier (Feb 16, 2019)

Mudball said:



			FlyBMI goes into admin.. among other things it blames Brexit..  Keep calm and blame Breshit
		
Click to expand...

Well it was the last of 4 problems they appear to be having.


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## Stuart_C (Feb 16, 2019)

Mudball said:



			FlyBMI goes into admin.. among other things it blames Brexit..  Keep calm and blame Breshit
		
Click to expand...

Project Fear coming to fruition ðŸ™„


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## IanM (Feb 16, 2019)

Check their recent contractual issues... and their margins....Uk air passenger numbers have risen every year since the Referendum......... but the management will blame...well, you know


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## Stuart_C (Feb 17, 2019)

IanM said:



			Check their recent contractual issues... and their margins....Uk air passenger numbers have risen every year since the Referendum......... but the management will blame...well, you know
		
Click to expand...

No doubt they were still taking bookings and payments right up until the momment they grounded their aircrafts.


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## drdel (Feb 17, 2019)

No more worries: 'reports' suggest in the event of a  No Deal the EU have developed plans that will enable them to send us humanitarian relief food !!!!

Sometime I wonder who sits around making this stuff up.


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## Slime (Feb 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			No more worries: 'reports' suggest in the event of a  No Deal the EU have developed plans that will enable them to send us humanitarian relief food !!!!

Sometime *I wonder who sits around making this stuff up.*

Click to expand...

Remainers?


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## harpo_72 (Feb 17, 2019)

Porsche taking the opportunity to get more money for their goods ... any old excuses ðŸ¤£


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## chrisd (Feb 18, 2019)

Anyone here planning to join the new Nigel Farage Brexit Party? 100,000 registered as having an interest in joining apparently


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## Old Skier (Feb 18, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Anyone here planning to join the new Nigel Farage Brexit Party? 100,000 registered as having an interest in joining apparently
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn't be my choice but giving the current bunch, I don't seem to have a choice for any party.


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## chrisd (Feb 18, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Wouldn't be my choice but giving the current bunch, I don't seem to have a choice for any party.
		
Click to expand...

I would appear that their main reason for forming the party is to fight the May EU elections if leaving the EU is delayed


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Anyone here planning to join the new Nigel Farage Brexit Party? 100,000 registered as having an interest in joining apparently
		
Click to expand...

The last I heard Farage was threatening to leave this new far right extremist party because of their anti Muslim leadership comments.

Speaking of new political parties....Labour have just created one...at last.


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## Old Skier (Feb 18, 2019)

First casualties seem to be the Labour Party. Things going to get really interesting now with Momentum.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2019)

Wonder if it will be called New New Labour


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## User62651 (Feb 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wonder if it will be called New New Labour
		
Click to expand...

New Improved Labour ?

Why can't they just join the Lib Dems? That's what happended last time in early 80s with SDP.


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## Mudball (Feb 18, 2019)

This just played into TMays hands.... now she is the strongest among the weakest...  easy to get her deal thru parliament...   Brexit here we come (finally)


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## Beezerk (Feb 18, 2019)

Mudball said:



			This just played into TMays hands.... now she is the strongest among the weakest...  easy to get her deal thru parliament...   Brexit here we come (finally)
		
Click to expand...

How powerful could the new new Labour Party be? Apologies Iâ€™m not a political type so this is a genuine question.
My point is, new new labour are also and anti brexit party from what Iâ€™ve read so is it possible them for them to somehow scupper brexit?


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## Old Skier (Feb 18, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Why can't they just join the Lib Dems? That's what happended last time in early 80s with SDP.
		
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Political suicide. Lib Dems still suffering from joining Cameron's coalition.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			How powerful could the new new Labour Party be? Apologies Iâ€™m not a political type so this is a genuine question.
My point is, new new labour are also and anti brexit party from what Iâ€™ve read so is it possible them for them to somehow scupper brexit?
		
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If they join the left centralist group of Lib Dem, Plaid, SNP, Greens it brings the group Westminster votes up to over 50.
It could make all the difference


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 18, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			How powerful could the new new Labour Party be? Apologies Iâ€™m not a political type so this is a genuine question.
My point is, new new labour are also and anti brexit party from what Iâ€™ve read so is it possible them for them to somehow scupper brexit?
		
Click to expand...

Those 7 can now vote however they like. No longer tied to a whips decision. It is how MP's should really be when you think about it.

Interesting that at this point they are not starting a new party, they are going independent. I wonder if they are waiting to see who else jumps ship.


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## Old Skier (Feb 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Those 7 can now vote however they like. No longer tied to a whips decision. It is how MP's should really be when you think about it.

Interesting that at this point they are not starting a new party, they are going independent. I wonder if they are waiting to see who else jumps ship.
		
Click to expand...

Twitter Momentum and Owen Jones site going mad slagging them off. Good strategy, keep abusing them and see if they can get the non Marxist to jump ship as well. Labour obviously not wanting to be in government again, oh hang on, they will try and reduce the voting age to 14.


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## woody69 (Feb 18, 2019)

Project fear - https://news.sky.com/story/honda-to-stun-ministers-with-closure-of-swindon-factory-11641154

And those Tory Anglo - Japanese relations were looking so promising;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...talks-high-handed-letter-liam-fox-jeremy-hunt
'Reports that Hunt and Foxâ€™s letter had irritated Japan are adding to scepticism over assurances made by Brexiters that Britain would ease its way into lucrative free trade deals once it leaves the EU.
_*To add to Britainâ€™s frustration, Japan has reportedly ruled out simply replicating the terms of a Japan-EU trade agreement that went into effect at the start of this month but which will be unavailable to the UK after Brexit. Instead, it will seek tougher concessions from Britain than it secured from the EU.*_
Japanese firms, which together employ about 140,000 people in the UK, have made no secret of their alarm at the prospect that Britain will crash out of the EU without a deal.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 18, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Project fear - https://news.sky.com/story/honda-to-stun-ministers-with-closure-of-swindon-factory-11641154

Click to expand...

A little like Nissan and the X-Trail though, the talk is that Honda are moving production to Japan, not moving it to another EU country. It is bad news for the UK full stop, let's not anyone pretend otherwise, and Brexit may have accelerated the decision but if Brexit was truly the key then would Honda not have moved it's factory into another EU country?


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## User62651 (Feb 18, 2019)

Hasn't happended yet but Sky must be confident the story is true to stick their necks out like that.

Moving manufacturing operations to Japan as they can trade freely with EU from Japan.

This story can be spun in different ways by Leavers and Remainers and it already is being in the usual split country fashion.

Fault of Brexit uncertainty or just Project Fear (sales were struggling and they were leaving anyway to gives jobs to Japanese workers instead)?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 18, 2019)

Things seem to be going spiffingly well for the UK in China and Japan thanks to those two Tory political giants Grayling and Williamson


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## chrisd (Feb 18, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Hasn't happended yet but Sky must be confident the story is true to stick their necks out like that.

Moving manufacturing operations to Japan as they can trade freely with EU from Japan.

This story can be spun in different ways by Leavers and Remainers and it already is being in the usual split country fashion.

Fault of Brexit uncertainty or just Project Fear (sales were struggling and they were leaving anyway to gives jobs to Japanese workers instead)?
		
Click to expand...


And it's easier to get rid of British workers than other country's work force


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## Stuart_C (Feb 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A little like Nissan and the X-Trail though, the talk is that Honda are moving production to Japan, not moving it to another EU country. It is bad news for the UK full stop, let's not anyone pretend otherwise, and Brexit may have accelerated the decision *but if Brexit was truly the key then would Honda not have moved it's factory into another EU country?*

Click to expand...

Doesnt matter really, another 3500 jobless men and women, though like Sunderland, both are areas that voted leave.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 18, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Doesnt matter really, another 3500 jobless men and women, though like Sunderland, both are areas that voted leave.
		
Click to expand...

Oh it's bad news, no question. Don't forget though, in both cases the areas chose to leave but it doesn't mean the employees did. They may have done ðŸ˜± but that can't be guaranteed. 

I grew up in the constituency of Neil Hamilton. That doesn't make me responsible for him getting elected, sadly they only let me vote once each election.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Hasn't happended yet but Sky must be confident the story is true to stick their necks out like that.

Moving manufacturing operations to Japan as they can trade freely with EU from Japan.

This story can be spun in different ways by Leavers and Remainers and it already is being in the usual split country fashion.

Fault of Brexit uncertainty or just Project Fear (sales were struggling and they were leaving anyway to gives jobs to Japanese workers instead)?
		
Click to expand...

Look on the bright side ... less Japanese cars being built by the English poorly, we can now buy expensive well built ones. ðŸ™„


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Doesnt matter really, another 3500 jobless men and women, though like Sunderland, both are areas that voted leave.
		
Click to expand...

Isnâ€™t it ironic ? And all the parasitic businesses that fed off those wages will start to be impacted. But this has nothing to do with Brexit, to say so would be project fear. This is about a global recession and Honda and Nissan failing to offer the customer what they wanted. 
But it must be a bad global recession if these businesses are retracting, as they have been in the UK for 20 yrs + . Not to worry though, we wonâ€™t be affected we will have our sovereignty and none of those EU lettuces.


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## Stuart_C (Feb 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Oh it's bad news, no question. Don't forget though, in both cases the areas chose to leave but it doesn't mean the employees did. They may have done ðŸ˜± but that can't be guaranteed.

I grew up in the constituency of Neil Hamilton. That doesn't make me responsible for him getting elected, sadly they only let me vote once each election.
		
Click to expand...

I've very little sympathy for those leave areas and leave voters, who are now reaping the rewards of their vote.

I genuinely fear for those who didn't vote to leave but will end up being fucked over.


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Look on the bright side ... less Japanese cars being built by the English poorly, we can now buy expensive well built ones. ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

H'mm. Honda Swindon was definitely a 'quality driven' shop! Complete with many Deming/Juran principles. And actual quality was pretty/very high!

I was a little surprised that workers in the BBC pic weren't wearing Honda caps that were de rigueur when I worked (in IT) there.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			I've very little sympathy for those leave areas and leave voters, who are now reaping the rewards of their vote.

I genuinely fear for those who didn't vote to leave but will end up being fucked over.
		
Click to expand...

That's just about the worse post I've seen on this whole thread. Anyone liking it are as crass as the poster.


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## Mudball (Feb 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm. Honda Swindon was definitely a 'quality driven' shop! Complete with many Deming/Juran principles. And actual quality was pretty/very high!

*I was a little surprised that workers in the BBC pic weren't wearing Honda caps that were de rigueur when I worked (in IT) there.*

Click to expand...

Was it a â€˜Make Honda Great Againâ€™ cap?


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm. Honda Swindon was definitely a 'quality driven' shop! Complete with many Deming/Juran principles. And actual quality was pretty/very high!

I was a little surprised that workers in the BBC pic weren't wearing Honda caps that were de rigueur when I worked (in IT) there.
		
Click to expand...

Yes they are very strong on that stuff, lots of UK companies have benefited from this training and expertise


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's just about the worse post I've seen on this whole thread. Anyone liking it are as crass as the poster.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s an opinion that is not uncommon or crass, itâ€™s just not want you want to hear/read. 
Itâ€™s just karma, so suck it up, because some of us are at risk and you have told us to stop being petulant little children.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 18, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			I've very little sympathy for those leave areas and leave voters, who are now reaping the rewards of their vote.

I genuinely fear for those who didn't vote to leave but will end up being fucked over.
		
Click to expand...


Such a sad bitter post. ðŸ˜”


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## Captainron (Feb 18, 2019)

I, like, Stu have little sympathy for those who voted out and are now seeing the effects their decision has for them. Where they were located makes no odds to me. 

Crass, sad, bitter? Nope. Iâ€™m just very disappointed that so many people are being affected by a blatantly stupid decision.


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## robinthehood (Feb 18, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Such a sad bitter post. ðŸ˜”
		
Click to expand...

How many more jobs have to be lost  , investments canned , offices relocated ,before you realise it was a bad bad choice .


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



*I've very little sympathy for those leave areas and leave voters, who are now reaping the rewards of their vote.*
I genuinely fear for those who didn't vote to leave but will end up being fucked over.
		
Click to expand...

Unbelievably bitter, a very sore loser.




harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s an opinion that is not uncommon or crass, itâ€™s just not want you want to hear/read.
*Itâ€™s just karma, so suck it up*, because some of us are at risk and you have told us to stop being petulant little children.
		
Click to expand...

I expected nothing else!


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## Fade and Die (Feb 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How many more jobs have to be lost  , investments canned , offices relocated ,before you realise it was a bad bad choice .
		
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Wise up, these companies are just using Brexit as an excuse for unpopular decisions they was always going to make.


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

Captainron said:



			I, like, Stu have little sympathy for those who voted out and are now seeing the effects their decision has for them. Where they were located makes no odds to me.

Crass, sad, bitter? Nope. Iâ€™m just very disappointed that so many people are being affected by* a blatantly stupid decision.*

Click to expand...

You absolutely know that, do you?
Oh, and you do realise you were in the minority, don't you?


----------



## Captainron (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			You absolutely know that, do you?
*Oh, and you do realise you were in the minority, don't you?*

Click to expand...

I had no idea! Iâ€™m flabbergasted. Really?? Let me go back and check the results.....

Yup. Youâ€™re right


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s an opinion that is not uncommon or crass, itâ€™s just not want you want to hear/read.
Itâ€™s just karma, so suck it up, because some of us are at risk and you have told us to stop being petulant little children.
		
Click to expand...

Your post doesn't disappoint,  we expect no different from you and asking you to grow up is peeing in the wind.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How many more jobs have to be lost  , investments canned , offices relocated ,before you realise it was a bad bad choice .
		
Click to expand...

Reading your post was a bad choice, 20 seconds I will never get back.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			Unbelievably bitter, a *very sore loser.*




I expected nothing else!
		
Click to expand...

Do you think this is all a game and itâ€™s about people being sore losers ? 

Do you think itâ€™s just about winning the vote ?! 

Itâ€™s a complete mess at the moment - the people that are losing are the guys that are losing their jobs because of the mess right now - do you want to go and tell them that they are sore losers ?

I agree with the jist and the thinking - if anyone who voted leaves gets affected by the whole process and leaving the EU negativily then I have zero sympathy - as they say - made their bed so time to lie in it but if someone who does get affected by the process and they voted to stay then they are fully within their rights to blame the people who voted to leave or â€œwinnersâ€ as they say


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post doesn't disappoint,  we expect no different from you and asking you to grow up is peeing in the wind.
		
Click to expand...

The problem is people like yourself, who should only be allowed to make decisions like â€œdo I need the toilet or a haircutâ€ as you have no idea what is happening. 
But hey letâ€™s watch it all fall apart and dismiss it with â€œproject fearâ€ ! Then get upset when blow back hits.


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...is *peeing in the wind*.
		
Click to expand...

Well, for some decisions, it's *pretty obvious which direction is 'best'*! For others, it's not quite so obvious and there's likely advantages and disadvantages in either direction!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you think this is all a game and itâ€™s about people being sore losers ?

Do you think itâ€™s just about winning the vote ?!

Itâ€™s a complete mess at the moment - the people that are losing are the guys that are losing their jobs because of the mess right now - do you want to go and tell them that they are sore losers ?

I agree with the jist and the thinking - if anyone who voted leaves gets affected by the whole process and leaving the EU negativily then I have zero sympathy - as they say - made their bed so time to lie in it but if someone who does get affected by the process and they voted to stay then they are fully within their rights to blame the people who voted to leave or â€œwinnersâ€ as they say
		
Click to expand...

Your halo is slipping.  Why aren't you preaching they haven't broken any laws or standing up for their human rights to vote as they please.  The 'blame Game'  is an ugly trait and below your shining example to us.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The problem is people like yourself, who should only be allowed to make decisions like â€œdo I need the toilet or a haircutâ€ as you have no idea what is happening.
But hey letâ€™s watch it all fall apart and dismiss it with â€œproject fearâ€ ! Then get upset when blow back hits.
		
Click to expand...

Never mind Sweet Cheeks, maybe when you are less excited the mist will clear.


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

Captainron said:



			I had no idea! Iâ€™m flabbergasted. Really?? Let me go back and check the results.....

*Yup. Youâ€™re right*

Click to expand...

That makes the majority of voters 'blatantly stupid', ................................. who'd have thought?


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:





SocketRocket said:



			...asking you to grow up is *peeing in the wind*.
		
Click to expand...

...â€œ*do I need the toilet* or a haircutâ€...
...*Then get upset when blow back hits*.
		
Click to expand...

Quite possibly a new 'loo' in the quality of opinions in this thread!


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you think this is all a game and itâ€™s about people being sore losers ?

Do you think itâ€™s just about winning the vote ?!

Itâ€™s a complete mess at the moment - *the people that are losing are the guys that are losing their jobs because of the mess right now - do you want to go and tell them that they are sore losers ?*

I agree with the jist and the thinking - if anyone who voted leaves gets affected by the whole process and leaving the EU negativily then I have zero sympathy - as they say - made their bed so time to lie in it but if someone who does get affected by the process and they voted to stay then they are fully within their rights to blame the people who voted to leave or â€œwinnersâ€ as they say
		
Click to expand...

No, do you want to tell them that you have no sympathy with them because it's all their own fault?


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## Captainron (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			That makes the majority of voters 'blatantly stupid', ................................. who'd have thought?
		
Click to expand...

Wow! Youâ€™re 2 for 2!! Go you!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			No, do you want to tell them that you have no sympathy with them because it's all their own fault?
		
Click to expand...

If they voted to leave then itâ€™s a consequence of their own vote or choice - but if itâ€™s the consequence of others voting to leave then they have every right to be angry do they not ? 

Like I said far too many people think this is some sort of game and people are celebrating because they â€œwonâ€ - people at risk through this whole process but there is a core of â€œhardâ€ leavers who donâ€™t care 

You are quite happy to type away calling people â€œsore losersâ€ because they are worried for the future - but I donâ€™t you would be brave enough to say it to someone who lost their job because of people voting to leave.


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

I'm genuinely disappointed at the amount of people who are so desperate for Brexit to fail, and fail dramatically, just so that they can feel smug and wear an 'I told you so' smirk on their face.


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:





Captainron said:



			... a blatantly stupid decision.
		
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You absolutely know that, do you?
Oh, and you do realise you were in the minority, don't you?
		
Click to expand...

Why does Trump becoming President of USA suddenly spring to mind!


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

Captainron said:



			Wow! Youâ€™re 2 for 2!! Go you! 

Click to expand...

And, what with voting 'Leave', that completes my hat-trick. Wow! I'm 3 for 3!! Go me!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			I'm genuinely disappointed at the amount of people who are so desperate for Brexit to fail, and fail dramatically, just so that they can feel smug and wear an 'I told you so' smirk on their face.
		
Click to expand...

Do you really think people want the country to suffer just so they can say â€œI told youâ€ - I expect if the process fails then some people will be too busy trying to work to make their lives work.

Some people are so wrapped up in their own personal victory they donâ€™t care about the affects outside their own world.


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If they voted to leave then itâ€™s a consequence of their own vote or choice - but if itâ€™s the consequence of others voting to leave then they have every right to be angry do they not ?

Like I said far too many people think this is some sort of game and people are celebrating because they â€œwonâ€ - people at risk through this whole process but there is a core of â€œhardâ€ leavers who donâ€™t care

*You are quite happy to type away calling people â€œsore losersâ€* because they are worried for the future - but I donâ€™t you would be brave enough to say it to someone who lost their job because of people voting to leave.
		
Click to expand...

Which *people* ....................... or are you exaggerating again?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If they voted to leave then itâ€™s a consequence of their own vote or choice - but if itâ€™s the consequence of others voting to leave then they have every right to be angry do they not ?

Like I said far too many people think this is some sort of game and people are celebrating because they â€œwonâ€ - people at risk through this whole process but there is a core of â€œhardâ€ leavers who donâ€™t care

You are quite happy to type away calling people â€œsore losersâ€ because they are worried for the future - but I donâ€™t you would be brave enough to say it to someone who lost their job because of people voting to leave.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they should have a badge sewn to their sleeves so anyone losing a job can blame and hate them.


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## Captainron (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			And, what with voting 'Leave', that completes my hat-trick. Wow! I'm 3 for 3!! Go me! 

Click to expand...

Look at you! Got your big boy pants on and everything tonight. Iâ€™m impressed


----------



## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Do you really think people want the country to suffer just so they can say â€œI told youâ€* - I expect if the process fails then some people will be too busy trying to work to make their lives work.

Some people are so wrapped up in their own personal victory they donâ€™t care about the affects outside their own world.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I do.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			Yes, I do.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you shouldnâ€™t judge people by your own standards


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

Captainron said:



			Look at you! Got your big boy pants on and everything tonight. Iâ€™m impressed
		
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Ah, I've just realised that it's half term this week. That'll be it.


----------



## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe you shouldnâ€™t judge people by your own standards
		
Click to expand...

Meaning?
A)  You don't know my standards, and
B)  I DON'T want Brexit to fail.


Oh, and you still haven't answered the question I asked in Post #5928, not that I expected you to.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			Meaning?
A)  You don't know my standards, and
B)  I DON'T want Brexit to fail.
		
Click to expand...

Just look your posts - 

Calling people â€œsore loserâ€ as if it some game and itâ€™s just about winning , ignoring the fact some people are genuinely worried about this whole process , worried about the jobs , Homes , futures - but you donâ€™t care about that - you won , enjoy celebrating 

And then you suggest people want to see the country fail just because they want to say â€œI told you so â€œ - that shows how little you know people and value the fact that people just want what is best - but again you just think thatâ€™s people being â€œsore losersâ€ 

Itâ€™s just a game to some people - people that donâ€™t rely on a a relationship with the EU I suspect and donâ€™t care of the affect it will have on others 

But donâ€™t worry - we are just losers and you won


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## Fade and Die (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			Meaning?
A)  You don't know my standards, and
B)  I DON'T want Brexit to fail.


Oh, and you still haven't answered the question I asked in Post #5928, not that I expected you to.
		
Click to expand...


Itâ€™s really shown the true colours of a lot of people, they actually want the country to fail just so they can say â€œI told you soâ€ .... Also the same people refusing to accept a democratic vote. 

Honest question, how do people get like that?


----------



## Mudball (Feb 18, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Wise up, these companies are just using Brexit as an excuse for unpopular decisions they was always going to make.
		
Click to expand...

While I agree with companies using Breshit as a reason for business decisions.  Equally Brexit is causing cos to move. The Banks would not set up in EU if it was not Brexit. Rees Mog would not move to Ireland if it was for Brexit.
By repeating that Brexit is not the reason for companies moving out, Leavers are behaving like Climate Change deniers. Any amount of statistical evidence will not change the view of the deniers that climate change is real and irreversible. They will keep saying this is conspiracy of experts and scientists who have an agenda. Itâ€™s only when hurricanes hit their constituencies that they start in waking up.
Dare I say, the same logic is followed by the American Gun lobby..

Edit: I am not suggesting people are stupid or bigoted or being thick. Instead pointing out that if people believe in a certain ideology then itâ€™s their way or the highway and no amount of data or rational argument will sway them (until the results hit them directly)


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## Fade and Die (Feb 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just look your posts -

Calling people â€œsore loserâ€ as if it some game and itâ€™s just about winning , ignoring the fact some people are genuinely worried about this whole process , worried about the jobs , Homes , futures - but you donâ€™t care about that - you won , enjoy celebrating

And then you suggest people want to see the country fail just because they want to say â€œI told you so â€œ - that shows how little you know people and value the fact that people just want what is best - but again you just think thatâ€™s people being â€œsore losersâ€

Itâ€™s just a game to some people - people that donâ€™t rely on a a relationship with the EU I suspect and donâ€™t care of the affect it will have on others

But donâ€™t worry - we are just losers and you won
		
Click to expand...



I love reading a good scouse rant!ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


----------



## robinthehood (Feb 18, 2019)

When does the extra 350mill a week for the the nhs kick in ? I need to make a doctor's appointment soon and the reduced wait will be awesome.


----------



## Fade and Die (Feb 18, 2019)

Mudball said:



			While I agree with companies using Breshit as a reason for business decisions.  Equally Brexit is causing cos to move. The Banks would not set up in EU if it was not Brexit. Rees Mog would not move to Ireland if it was for Brexit.
By repeating that Brexit is not the reason for companies moving out, Leavers are behaving like Climate Change deniers. Any amount of statistical evidence will not change the view of the deniers that climate change is real and irreversible. They will keep saying this is conspiracy of experts and scientists who have an agenda. Itâ€™s only when hurricanes hit their constituencies that they start in waking up.
*Dare I say, the same logic is followed by the American Gun lobby*..
		
Click to expand...

Yeah that seems an appropriate comparison. ðŸ™„


----------



## Fade and Die (Feb 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Why does Trump becoming President of USA suddenly spring to mind!
		
Click to expand...

Good point... both Trump and Brexit were democratic outcomes and the reaction of some of the illiberal â€œeliteâ€ has demonstrated their contempt for democracy and, far more disturbing, their utter disdain for some of their fellow citizens.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			When does the extra 350mill a week for the the nhs kick in ? I need to make a doctor's appointment soon and the reduced wait will be awesome.
		
Click to expand...

It's way past your bedtime


----------



## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			Meaning?
A)  You don't know my standards, and - we do, they are like your IQ, LOW
B)  I DON'T want Brexit to fail - thatâ€™s just emotional and devoid of logic or facts to support.


Oh, and you still haven't answered the question I asked in Post #5928, not that I expected you to - go and find out yourself
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


----------



## Stuart_C (Feb 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's just about the worse post I've seen on this whole thread. Anyone liking it are as crass as the poster.
		
Click to expand...

No itâ€™s not, itâ€™s not even close.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			No itâ€™s not, itâ€™s not even close.
		
Click to expand...

I think the worst post was, saying job losses were acceptable and a minor price to pay. That was crass and pretty unpleasant on all levels, casting peopleâ€™s lives to the side, for an idea and no plan.


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just look your posts -

*Calling people â€œsore loserâ€* as if it some game and itâ€™s just about winning , ignoring the fact some people are genuinely worried about this whole process , worried about the jobs , Homes , futures - but you donâ€™t care about that - you won , enjoy celebrating

And then you suggest people want to see the country fail just because they want to say â€œI told you so â€œ - that shows how little you know people and value the fact that people just want what is best - but again you just think thatâ€™s people being â€œsore losersâ€

Itâ€™s just a game to some people - people that donâ€™t rely on a a relationship with the EU I suspect and donâ€™t care of the affect it will have on others

But donâ€™t worry - we are just losers and you won
		
Click to expand...

Again, and for the last time, who are these *PEOPLE* that you keep referring to?
I know you won't answer this, because you can't.
Most of the rest of your post is pretty much rubbish, too.


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## Stuart_C (Feb 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think the worst post was, saying job losses were acceptable and a minor price to pay. That was crass and pretty unpleasant on all levels, casting peopleâ€™s lives to the side, for an idea and no plan.
		
Click to expand...

Some people canâ€™t see the woods for the trees.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think the worst post was, saying job losses were acceptable and a minor price to pay. That was crass and pretty unpleasant on all levels, casting peopleâ€™s lives to the side, for an idea and no plan.
		
Click to expand...

No, it was you reading that into posts to support your twisted logic.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Some people canâ€™t see the woods for the trees.
		
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I admire a man that admits his lack of vision. You know it makes sense


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## Stuart_C (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			Unbelievably bitter, a very sore loer.
		
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Sore Loser?

I havenâ€™t lost nothing.

Am I supposed to have sympathy for affected people who got what they voted for?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			No itâ€™s not, itâ€™s not even close.
		
Click to expand...

Don't be so modest, you know it was.


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## Stuart_C (Feb 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I admire a man that admits his lack of vision. You know it makes sense
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ™„


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			Again, and for the last time, who are these *PEOPLE* that you keep referring to?
I know you won't answer this, because you can't.
Most of the rest of your post is pretty much rubbish, too.
		
Click to expand...




Slime said:



			Unbelievably bitter, a very sore loser.
		
Click to expand...

Do you not remember what you post ? You called Stu a sore loser ?! And I have no doubt if I go back there will be further posts of you calling people sore losers

You just came onto the thread tonight and posted straight away that Stu was a sore loser

So Iâ€™ll ask you - do you think itâ€™s all some sort of game and do you even think of the possible consequences it has on peopleâ€™s lives

And you suggest people want people to suffer just to say â€œI told you soâ€ - that to me shows exactly what you think of people, maybe itâ€™s the arrogance of â€œwinningâ€


----------



## Stuart_C (Feb 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			I'm genuinely disappointed at the amount of people who are so desperate for Brexit to fail, and fail dramatically, just so that they can feel smug and wear an 'I told you so' smirk on their face.
		
Click to expand...

Who wants brexit to fail?


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## robinthehood (Feb 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It's way past your bedtime
		
Click to expand...

It's a fair question.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Itâ€™s really shown the true colours of a lot of people, they actually want the country to fail just so they can say â€œI told you soâ€ .... Also the same people refusing to accept a democratic vote.

Honest question, how do people get like that?
		
Click to expand...

Because they feel entitled to their view being the only one that matters even if it lost a vote.  Probably the way they were brought up.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's a fair question.
		
Click to expand...

You still up, those papers won't deliver themselves in the morning.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No, it was you reading that into posts to support your twisted logic.
		
Click to expand...

Quick edit it .... !


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Quick edit it .... !
		
Click to expand...

Ok if you insist.

No, it was you reading that into posts to support your bitter and twisted logic.
Is that better Sweet Cheeks.


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you not remember what you post ? You called Stu a sore loser ?! And I have no doubt if I go back there will be further posts of you calling people sore losers

You just came onto the thread tonight and posted straight away that Stu was a sore loser

*So Iâ€™ll ask you - do you think itâ€™s all some sort of game* and *do you even think of the possible consequences it has on peopleâ€™s lives*

And you suggest people want people to suffer just to say â€œI told you soâ€ - that to me shows exactly what you think of people, maybe itâ€™s the arrogance of â€œwinningâ€
		
Click to expand...

No.
Yes.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Who wants brexit to fail?
		
Click to expand...

Most Remainers.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Feb 18, 2019)

If our MP's are reflected in the same way this thread has been, is it any wonder we are gazing down the barrel of a howitzer.
It's a bloody travisty.


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## Mudball (Feb 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Most Remainers.
		
Click to expand...

Sweeping generalisations alert..


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			If our MP's are reflected in the same way this thread has been, is it any wonder we are gazing down the barrel of a howitzer.
It's a bloody travisty.

Click to expand...

Do you believe anything posted on a Golf Forum will make any difference?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Sweeping generalisations alert..
		
Click to expand...

True though.


----------



## drdel (Feb 18, 2019)

Worldwide motor production capacity has been too high for several years. Most of the excess is in diesel models. Car makers were slow to appreciate the speed at which the market would switch to electric. All manufacturers are having to invest heavily in the new processes. 

Honda is going to invest in Japan to serve the global market. It makes no commercial sense to make investment in Europe when it has capacity and capital at home. Brexit is a factor but it's pretty far down the list.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 18, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			I've very little sympathy for those leave areas and leave voters, who are now reaping the rewards of their vote.

I genuinely fear for those who didn't vote to leave but will end up being fucked over.
		
Click to expand...

They aren't reaping the rewards of the vote; they are reaping the reward of our politicians' incompetence.


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			True though.
		
Click to expand...

Can you back this *opinion* up with some actual hard evidence?


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Can you back this *opinion* up with some actual hard evidence?
		
Click to expand...

Of course its an opinion, most of what's posted here is opinion. I dont need to back it up with hard evidence as its an opinion and based on what i read on this forum. Many remainers here trawl the net for scraps that try to discredit Brexit as a failure, not all but many.


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## Foxholer (Feb 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course its an opinion, most of what's posted here is opinion. I dont need to back it up with hard evidence as its an opinion and based on what i read on this forum. Many remainers here trawl the net for scraps that try to discredit Brexit as a failure, not all but many.
		
Click to expand...

Well, it's MY opinion that your 'True though' post was..well...twaddle!


----------



## Dando (Feb 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			When does the extra 350mill a week for the the nhs kick in ? I need to make a doctor's appointment soon and the reduced wait will be awesome.
		
Click to expand...

When was it promised?


----------



## Dando (Feb 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's a fair question.
		
Click to expand...

No itâ€™s a stupid question


----------



## robinthehood (Feb 19, 2019)

Dando said:



			No itâ€™s a stupid question
		
Click to expand...

Why?, it's been getting for 3 years since the referendum,  there must  be a long list of how much  better off we are now.


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## chrisd (Feb 19, 2019)

Wasn't it inevitable that the Japanese motor industry would move their production back to their homeland for their own countrymen as soon as the EU gave them a free trade deal, after all, the only reason they all set up factories here was to take advantage of access to the EU through our membership


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2019)

Slime said:



			I'm genuinely disappointed at the amount of people who are so desperate for Brexit to fail, and fail dramatically, just so that they can feel smug and wear an 'I told you so' smirk on their face.
		
Click to expand...

Or
Perhaps we are genuine caring and thoughtful people who are 'desperate' to save the UK from the utter financial madness of Brexit.


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Wasn't it inevitable that the Japanese motor industry would move their production back to their homeland for their own countrymen as soon as the EU gave them a free trade deal, after all, the only reason they all set up factories here was to take advantage of access to the EU through our membership
		
Click to expand...

Strangely enough, you'd be amazed how many Japanese manufacturers with plants around the world are returning manufacturing to Japan. Its been going on for a few years now. Some of it down to a weaker Yen and some of it down to Trump's trade wars with countries where Japanese manufacturers have a factory. 

Is Brexit a reason for this? Probably but only a small part of the why.


----------



## chrisd (Feb 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Strangely enough, you'd be amazed how many Japanese manufacturers with plants around the world are returning manufacturing to Japan. Its been going on for a few years now. Some of it down to a weaker Yen and some of it down to Trump's trade wars with countries where Japanese manufacturers have a factory. 

Is Brexit a reason for this? Probably but only a small part of the why.
		
Click to expand...

Given the amount of time it takes to close down a production line in a car assembly plant, if it were only about Brexit then Japan would be daft to announce the  closure  of factories before anyone knows the final deal (or no deal) why would they just not wait until the 29th?


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## jp5 (Feb 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Wasn't it inevitable that the Japanese motor industry would move their production back to their homeland for their own countrymen as soon as the EU gave them a free trade deal, after all, the only reason they all set up factories here was to take advantage of access to the EU through our membership
		
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Prior to Brexit we had better arrangements for Honda than the Japanese FTA. Post Brexit we won't. Sure there are other factors but looks like Brexit was the tipping point.


----------



## chrisd (Feb 19, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Not necessarily. Prior to Brexit we had better arrangements for Honda than the Japanese FTA. Post Brexit we won't. Sure there are other factors but looks like Brexit was the tipping point.
		
Click to expand...

But when they set up here they didn't have a free trade deal and now they do, so the knock on effect is that their own countrymen are able to more directly benefit from the move.


----------



## jp5 (Feb 19, 2019)

A lot of upheaval in moving production. Expect Brexit has made that upheaval worthwhile.


----------



## IanM (Feb 19, 2019)

FAR right  = everyone not in the Corbyn and Hatton Party?


----------



## jp5 (Feb 19, 2019)

Thing that worries me is that this is just the big, big companies we are hearing about - Honda, Nissan, Jaguar Land Rover, Sony, Dyson.... how many SMEs are making similar decisions that are just going under the radar.


----------



## Mudball (Feb 19, 2019)

Call if Fear, Globalisation, Unelected twats facing off to our Elected ones.. Whichever way you look at things.. 

.. the reason for which the Leavers voted to leave are not materialising ..

.. the reason for which Remains chose to remain are still valid .. 

So in light of new information, re-run a referendum on the deal and choose what we want. Close this discussion forever. Heal the split and leave a better country for the kids.


----------



## Mudball (Feb 19, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Thing that worries me is that this is just the big, big companies we are hearing about - Honda, Nissan, Jaguar Land Rover, Sony, Dyson.... how many SMEs are making similar decisions that are just going under the radar.
		
Click to expand...

The lady who was on QT said the same thing and she runs a  SME Chemical factory. Those are the ones that slip under the radar but make a lasting damage


----------



## Dando (Feb 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Why?, it's been getting for 3 years since the referendum,  there must  be a long list of how much  better off we are now.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s stupid because there was never a promise of that money going to the nhs!
Plus we havenâ€™t left yet


----------



## chrisd (Feb 19, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Call if Fear, Globalisation, Unelected twats facing off to our Elected ones.. Whichever way you look at things.. 

.. the reason for which the Leavers voted to leave are not materialising ..

.. the reason for which Remains chose to remain are still valid .. 

So in light of new information, re-run a referendum on the deal and choose what we want. Close this discussion forever. Heal the split and leave a better country for the kids.
		
Click to expand...

Comedy gold


----------



## IanM (Feb 19, 2019)

jp5 said:



			A lot of upheaval in moving production. Expect Brexit has made that upheaval worthwhile.
		
Click to expand...

Yes.  Even Turkey is impacted lol


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2019)

Minister of War puts the UK on a level 5 threat warning. 

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/451215-williamson-russia-china-defense/


----------



## Kellfire (Feb 19, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Call if Fear, Globalisation, Unelected twats facing off to our Elected ones.. Whichever way you look at things..

.. the reason for which the Leavers voted to leave are not materialising ..

.. the reason for which Remains chose to remain are still valid ..

So in light of new information, re-run a referendum on the deal and choose what we want. Close this discussion forever. Heal the split and leave a better country for the kids.
		
Click to expand...


But but but democracy and out means out!!!!!!111111oneone


----------



## Dando (Feb 19, 2019)

My train ticket has gone up for the 20th year in a row but Iâ€™m sure brexit is to blame


----------



## User62651 (Feb 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Minister of War puts the UK on a level 5 threat warning. 

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/451215-williamson-russia-china-defense/

Click to expand...

Shouldn't be in Brexit thread but to respond if there's one resignation I wish that could have been avoided (had he behaved himself in private better) it was Michael Fallon at Defence. Fallon had the tact, skill with words and diplomacy that Williamson simply does not. What was May thinking? Williamson in his efforts to appear 'hard' is just appearing mildly cretinous.

A PM should have better advisement and better appointment skills that that.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Well, it's MY opinion that your 'True though' post was..well...twaddle!
		
Click to expand...

That's fine, twaddle but fine.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Call if Fear, Globalisation, Unelected twats facing off to our Elected ones.. Whichever way you look at things..

.. the reason for which the Leavers voted to leave are not materialising ..

.. the reason for which Remains chose to remain are still valid ..

So in light of new information, re-run a referendum on the deal and choose what we want. Close this discussion forever. Heal the split and leave a better country for the kids.
		
Click to expand...

It may have slipped your attention but we are  still in the EU.  Do you honestly believe another referendum would heal the split. Really!


----------



## Fade and Die (Feb 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Or
*Perhaps we are genuine caring and thoughtful people who are 'desperate' to save the UK* from the utter financial madness of Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Priceless!...I would accept that from any other poster on here but not you.ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Shouldn't be in Brexit thread but to respond if there's one resignation I wish that could have been avoided (had he behaved himself in private better) it was Michael Fallon at Defence. Fallon had the tact, skill with words and diplomacy that Williamson simply does not. What was May thinking? Williamson in his efforts to appear 'hard' is just appearing mildly cretinous.

A PM should have better advisement and better appointment skills that that.
		
Click to expand...

Put it on here as his threats to China somehow managed to scuppered a trade deal.
Japan also not amused with this idiots 'Empire' posturing.
Putin probably just laughed his socks off.
May probably told him to use his bloody useless aircraft carrier to do something to get her Brexit embarrassment off the front pages


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Priceless!...I would accept that from any other poster on here but not you.ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Why, I have friends and family in England and Wales who I do not wish to suffer from the Brexit fallout.
Some are telling me about a breakdown in law and order and increased crime, 20% in one area in the last year.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why, I have friends and family in England and Wales who I do not wish to suffer from the Brexit fallout.
Some are telling me about a breakdown in law and order and increased crime, 20% in one area in the last year.
		
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Yeah thatâ€™s not true either...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2019)

bobmac said:



			This isn't right, where's all the doom and gloom?
		
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One click

Sorry Bob...â€¦..that should have been for Fade & Die.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...342/rural-crime-increases-by-20-in-six-months

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/17...and-southend-services-after-spate-of-attacks/


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## Crazyface (Feb 19, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Call if Fear, Globalisation, Unelected twats facing off to our Elected ones.. Whichever way you look at things..

.. the reason for which the Leavers voted to leave are not materialising ..

.. the reason for which Remains chose to remain are still valid ..

So in light of new information, re-run a referendum on the deal and choose what we want. Close this discussion forever. Heal the split and leave a better country for the kids.
		
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So what do you suggest we put on the next referendum?

Vote for ONE of these :-
1. Out of the EU
2. Out of the EU but still adopt all of their rules, but pay them nowt.
3. Out of the EU but still adopt all of their rules and give them more money than they give us back.
4. In the EU continuing to pay them whatever they want and continue to follow everything they vote for no matter what., but at least we're at the table, even though we get voted against on everything we want.

I could go on with option 4, but I think these options cover all the things.


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## Crazyface (Feb 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why, I have friends and family in England and Wales who I do not wish to suffer from the Brexit fallout.
Some are telling me about a breakdown in law and order and increased crime, 20% in one area in the last year.
		
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Increase in crime is nowt to do with Brexit it's, well I don't know, but it's not Brexit.


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## jp5 (Feb 19, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			4. In the EU continuing to pay them whatever they want and continue to follow everything they vote for no matter what., but at least we're at the table, even though we get voted against on everything we want.
		
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95% of the time we have voted in agreement to pass EU laws. So it would seem we overwhelmingly got what we wanted.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			One click

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...342/rural-crime-increases-by-20-in-six-months

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/17...and-southend-services-after-spate-of-attacks/

Click to expand...

As someone who did vote to stay, what the heck has any of that got to do with Brexit?
Austerity and cut backs yes, but Brexit no. 
I would look at your latest edition of Wings, to find something else more worthy to stick the knife into anything non Scottish
Perhaps you've been chatting to Donald for to much.


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## Crazyface (Feb 19, 2019)

jp5 said:



			95% of the time we have voted in agreement to pass EU laws. So it would seem we overwhelmingly got what we wanted.
		
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 But it the ones that we know will affect us badly and the the rest of the EU not at all that we get hissed off with.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			One click

Sorry Bob...â€¦..that should have been for Fade & Die.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...342/rural-crime-increases-by-20-in-six-months

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/17...and-southend-services-after-spate-of-attacks/

Click to expand...

What a sad little man you are to post that. Its beyond pathetic ðŸ™„


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## IanM (Feb 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why, I have friends and family in England and Wales who I do not wish to suffer from the Brexit fallout.
Some are telling me about a breakdown in law and order and increased crime, 20% in one area in the last year.
		
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A classic, amongst classics.   "some are telling me..."   Brexit causing crime rise.... ok... I'll assume it isnt Trolling and ask "how?"


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## IanM (Feb 19, 2019)

Mudball said:



			.. the reason for which the Leavers voted to leave are not materialising ..

.. the reason for which Remains chose to remain are still valid .. 

So in light of new information, re-run a referendum on the deal and choose what we want. Close this discussion forever. Heal the split and leave a better country for the kids.
		
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1a) So you missed/ignored all the "more Federalism etc" speeches from the EU leadership in recent weeks then?  Or are you going to tell me why I voted leave?? 
1b) We havent left. We are still paying them. 
2) How would another Ref "heal the split?"  Remain lost and redoubled their buget.  If they lose again, will they go-away?  Certainly not.  
3) How would a second Referendum on "deal options" placate "Remaners?"  They dont want a deal they want to stay in.


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## pendodave (Feb 19, 2019)

Going on holiday in early April... Just purchased my international driving permit. Buy now while stocks last!!


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## drdel (Feb 19, 2019)

Brexit is a blip in global economics there are much bigger demographic issues that will impact UK and EU citizens. With some sensible thought the UK could address the issues in a more agile way than the slumbering EU can.

IMO many European and UK businesses have failed to recognise that the market for mass-produced products has changed. Since Honda came to the UK 30 years ago the market for cars has become saturated: its been artificially kept afloat by cheap loans which many are realising are expensive and so delay replacement. Nowadays most European's have a car (if not more), phones, TVs, white goods, brown goods etc, etc so people look to replace items  but this does not add to the sales. The new virgin customers aren't here and in the EU. 

If your are a major business you would look at where the new business will come from, where is it cheapest to serve that market - its South America, Africa, South East Asia, India, China (after the blip); it ain't in the UK and EU because of regulatory controls, labour etc..

Robotic assembly systems mean we can produce items in sufficient numbers in one plant to service a huge geographic area without the need to employ many people. Ironically free-trade deals facilitate serving markets from low cost facilities/countries. 

Brexit may be a catalyst for change but anyone who believes global companies *need* to locate or *stay* here/EU are sadly deluded. It will cause hardship as we re-adjust to the change and unless we can get both politicians and global businesses to plan for the long term the pain will be inflicted on more people for longer.


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## Foxholer (Feb 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...increased crime, 20% in one area in the last year.
		
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From 5 instances to 6?


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## Fade and Die (Feb 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			One click

Sorry Bob...â€¦..that should have been for Fade & Die.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...342/rural-crime-increases-by-20-in-six-months

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/17...and-southend-services-after-spate-of-attacks/

Click to expand...


Doon, I've read both them articles and could not see any link to Brexit, and its not like the BBC would pass up an opportunity to blame Brexit, so can you highlight it for me buddy?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			As someone who did vote to stay, what the heck has any of that got to do with Brexit?
Austerity and cut backs yes, but Brexit no.
I would look at your latest edition of Wings, to find something else more worthy to stick the knife into anything non Scottish
Perhaps you've been chatting to Donald for to much.

Click to expand...

Hey, don't shoot the messenger Mr Sensitive.
I am just passing on what my English friends and relatives are saying.
Some of whom even voted for Brexit.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			A classic, amongst classics.   "some are telling me..."   Brexit causing crime rise.... ok... I'll assume it isnt Trolling and ask "how?"
		
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Mainly by telephone.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Doon, I've read both them articles and could not see any link to Brexit, and its not like the BBC would pass up an opportunity to blame Brexit, so can you highlight it for me buddy?

Click to expand...

#5995.
And....for the doubters type in 'Is Brexit causing a crime rise in England' to Google and see what comes up.


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## IanM (Feb 19, 2019)

So it is trolling.... ok.  Well done.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			So it is trolling.... ok.  Well done.
		
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Aye right, caught me out good and proper there guv.


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## IanM (Feb 19, 2019)

Had a meeting with a "airline industry" bloke this morning...

He listed a range of Airlines that went bust in the last 3 months... American, Swiss, German, Cypriot. etc

BMI goes, it's Brexit!


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## robinthehood (Feb 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			Had a meeting with a "airline industry" bloke this morning...

He listed a range of Airlines that went bust in the last 3 months... American, Swiss, German, Cypriot. etc

BMI goes, it's Brexit! 

Click to expand...


Less of us traveling due to the weak pound, some airlines profits in pounds taking a hit because of the same thing, but nah nothing to do with brexit....


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## IanM (Feb 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Less of us traveling due to the weak pound, some airlines profits in pounds taking a hit because of the same thing, but nah nothing to do with brexit....
		
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Air passenger numbers from the UK up average 6% p.a. since the referendum... and you won't of heard of 3 of those airlines as don't fly much to the UK, if at all.... so your linkage to Brexit is?????


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## Hobbit (Feb 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			Air passenger numbers from the UK up average 6% p.a. since the referendum... and you won't of heard of 3 of those airlines as don't fly much to the UK, if at all.... so your linkage to Brexit is?????
		
Click to expand...

He just likes to appear clever........................ but fails miserably.


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## robinthehood (Feb 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			Air passenger numbers from the UK up average 6% p.a. since the referendum... and you won't of heard of 3 of those airlines as don't fly much to the UK, if at all.... so your linkage to Brexit is?????
		
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lol, chuck a stat in, but fail to mention the rise comes predominately from travel to long haul destinations such as Singapore, Dubai, the USA, which last time I checked are not in Europe.

I know all about the airlines that have gone bust, you carry on pretending brexit isn't having any sort of negative impact and quote project fear to every bit of news.
If it weren't so sad it'd be funny.


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## robinthehood (Feb 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He just likes to appear clever........................ but fails miserably.
		
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Hello, is google bust? You've usually got a bit more than that.


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## adam6177 (Feb 19, 2019)

really interesting reading on the Honda/swindon issue today.... you read some outlets and brexit is to blame for their decision to pull out, others showing MP dialogue claiming it is a global trend, the part I find most interesting is to examine their sale figures.

In 2007 Honda sales accounted for 1.99% of the european car sales figures.
In 2017 Honda sales accounted for 0.91% of the european car sales figures.

So arguable that they've had a steady declined over the last 10-12 years leaving their sales level at HALF of what they were and then leaving a good rationale for pulling out of the UK and europe for production.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			Had a meeting with a "airline industry" bloke this morning...

He listed a range of Airlines that went bust in the last 3 months... American, Swiss, German, Cypriot. etc

BMI goes, it's Brexit! 

Click to expand...

In the style of your posts.........
Could this Airline industry bloke possibly be a Heathrow taxi driver.


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## IanM (Feb 19, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			really interesting reading on the Honda/swindon issue today.... you read some outlets and brexit is to blame for their decision to pull out, others showing MP dialogue claiming it is a global trend, the part I find most interesting is to examine their sale figures.

In 2007 Honda sales accounted for 1.99% of the european car sales figures.
In 2017 Honda sales accounted for 0.91% of the european car sales figures.

So arguable that they've had a steady declined over the last 10-12 years leaving their sales level at HALF of what they were and then leaving a good rationale for pulling out of the UK and europe for production.
		
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If Swindon was the only overseas plant Honda were closing, it would be a reasonable assumption that uncertainty over UK Trade position was a factor.  But it isnt.  Losing half their maket share has to be significant.

The UK Govt recently peed off the Japanese, they have also deliberately (in my view) messed around with Brexit Negotiations increasing uncertainty.  Also car sales are down due to lack of clarity about diesel.. (thats the EU and UK at fault)


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## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye right, caught me out good and proper there guv.

Click to expand...

Come on, it's not difficult.


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## Captainron (Feb 19, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47212992

Bit of food for thought


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## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2019)

Captainron said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47212992

Bit of food for thought
		
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Only if you eat in a Spanish restaurant


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## Dando (Feb 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He just likes to appear clever........................ but fails miserably.
		
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Maybe he saw it written on the side of a bus along with the Â£350m he thinks was promised to the nhs


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## Foxholer (Feb 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			...and you won't *of* heard of ...
		
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have!!!

Why is it that UK folk are so bad at 'English'!


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## Foxholer (Feb 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Less of us traveling due to the weak pound, some airlines profits in pounds taking a hit because of the same thing, but nah nothing to do with brexit....
		
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Totally agree!

Any airline that hasn't taken a (defensive) position because of Brexit only has itself to blame when sales shrink!

Btw. It's actually 'Fewer', but an 'acceptable' glitch! The punctuation/sentencing, however, is diabolical!


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## harpo_72 (Feb 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			Air passenger numbers from the UK up average 6% p.a. since the referendum... and you won't of heard of 3 of those airlines as don't fly much to the UK, if at all.... so your linkage to Brexit is?????
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s artificially high, TM and her team are doing a lot of travel. She should be told to do her negotiations via Skype! 
ðŸ˜Ž


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## drdel (Feb 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			If Swindon was the only overseas plant Honda were closing, it would be a reasonable assumption that uncertainty over UK Trade position was a factor.  But it isnt.  Losing half their maket share has to be significant.

The UK Govt recently peed off the Japanese, they have also deliberately (in my view) messed around with Brexit Negotiations increasing uncertainty.  Also car sales are down due to lack of clarity about diesel.. (thats the *EU and UK at fault*)
		
Click to expand...

You might want to consider that sales globally have drastically fallen - due *in part* to the Trump strategy of import controls and argument with China.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			If Swindon was the only overseas plant Honda were closing, it would be a reasonable assumption that uncertainty over UK Trade position was a factor.  But it isnt.  Losing half their maket share has to be significant.

The UK Govt recently peed off the Japanese, they have also deliberately (in my view) messed around with Brexit Negotiations increasing uncertainty.  Also car sales are down due to lack of clarity about diesel.. (thats the EU and UK at fault)
		
Click to expand...

I think Honda lost their way, their product range is pretty bland and the nsx is too expensive. Gone are the exciting innovative Preludes, legends, crx, s2000 etc.. the civic just looks like a bewinged pram. 
Brexit is not to blame, and they donâ€™t claim it is. However it might have expedited their decision, purely because the uk government has not pinned down a deal. 
The disaster is the parasitic industries.


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## Old Skier (Feb 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			have!!!

Why is it that UK folk are so bad at 'English'!
		
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Why do you think your so good at it, that's English.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			have!!!

Why is it that UK folk are so bad at 'English'!
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they have better things going on in their lives than pedantic nit picking twaddle ðŸ™‹â€â™‚ï¸


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think Honda lost their way, their product range is pretty bland and the nsx is too expensive. Gone are the exciting innovative Preludes, legends, crx, s2000 etc.. the civic just looks like a bewinged pram.
Brexit is not to blame, and they donâ€™t claim it is. However it might have expedited their decision, purely because the uk government has not pinned down a deal.
The disaster is the parasitic industries.
		
Click to expand...

I have to say I agree with your post.  I don't feel well now though. ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2019)

If Honda want to save money by moving production of their Civic to Japan I wonder what the cost per car is to ship them back to Europe.

Honda do make good quality products but their range of cars have become very ugly, a trait noticeable with Nissan and Mitabushi.  I have a feeling that car prices will come under some strain in the near future which could result in some serious price cutting.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 19, 2019)

Honda are retracting to a friendly home market, the problem is that market has changed in the last 20years. They need to appeal to buyers.  
Not to sure where they stand in the NAS market though. 
But this could be the beginning of their end or reduction in their product portfolio


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## Sweep (Feb 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			have!!!

Why is it that UK folk are so bad at 'English'!
		
Click to expand...

Comedy gold!
Shouldnâ€™t you have ended that question with a question mark rather than an exclamation mark?


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## Hobbit (Feb 20, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Comedy gold!
Shouldnâ€™t you have ended that question with a question mark rather than an exclamation mark?
		
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Foxy is king of the exclamation mark. Uses it at the end of almost every sentence.


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## Foxholer (Feb 20, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Comedy gold!
Shouldnâ€™t you have ended that question with a question mark rather than an exclamation mark?
		
Click to expand...

No! Though an interrobang (â€½ ) might have been appropriate.


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## Foxholer (Feb 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Why do you think your so good at it, that's English.
		
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H'mm!

Btw. I don't!


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## Mudball (Feb 20, 2019)

TMay must be over the moon.. she had been knocked off the front page by party â€˜splitsâ€™, Isis bride etc. 
Now all she needs is that Javid revokes the isis passport and it being reinstated by the Courts or ECJ .. suddenly everyone will be behind her â€˜dealâ€™..


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 20, 2019)

My God, Wastemonster is soooooo pathetic.
Serious discussions going on about where 11 MP's are going to sit.


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## Old Skier (Feb 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm!

Btw. I don't!
		
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Good, then perhaps you can stop acting like the grammar police.


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## Old Skier (Feb 20, 2019)

New anti Brexit Party formed. Wonder what they are going to do at the end of March. The only common ground is that they want another "People's Vote". No common ideology, interesting times.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			New anti Brexit Party formed. Wonder what they are going to do at the end of March. The only common ground is that they want another "People's Vote". No common ideology, interesting times.
		
Click to expand...

They all may be against Foxhunting.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My God, Wastemonster is soooooo pathetic.
Serious discussions going on about where 11 MP's are going to sit.
		
Click to expand...

Put Blackstock on a diet and you may fit a few more in.


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## Mudball (Feb 20, 2019)

Another Project Fear claptrap ? This time from Formula 1 fellas.. some would argue that who wants these overpaid fellows in this country anyways eh? 
8 of the 10 F1 teams are UK based and UK is a pioneer in this space but who care 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/19/...rcedes-brexit-formula-one-spt-intl/index.html


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## drdel (Feb 20, 2019)

So the EU  continue to claim the Irish border solution is key to the integrity of the single market to ensure products are not smuggelled into the EU across the border and undermine its economy.

This would mean Ireland receiving a huge quantity of produce to be of any significance. Surely such volumes of cross border movement would be opposite to current flow and be very obvious. Do these people live in the real world


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			So the EU  continue to claim the Irish border solution is key to the integrity of the single market to ensure products are not smuggelled into the EU across the border and undermine its economy.

This would mean Ireland receiving a huge quantity of produce to be of any significance. Surely such volumes of cross border movement would be opposite to current flow and be very obvious. Do these people live in the real world
		
Click to expand...

Are you thinking toilet rolls whilst others think small bottles of knock off perfume.


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## User62651 (Feb 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			So the EU  continue to claim the Irish border solution is key to the integrity of the single market to ensure products are not smuggelled into the EU across the border and undermine its economy.

This would mean Ireland receiving a huge quantity of produce to be of any significance. Surely such volumes of cross border movement would be opposite to current flow and be very obvious. Do these people live in the real world
		
Click to expand...

Does volumes matter, whether its a little or a lot, still has to be accounted for?
Just because there isn't a massive flow of goods from NI into Eire now doesn't mean there couldn't be in future if an open border did offer a means to smuggle easily into EU. If we turn ourselves into a lower taxation country so goods become significantly cheaper here even more so. People could/would try to do it just to avoid hefty tariffs.

Seems like you're saying "dont be daft us Brits dont do smuggling" or "there isn't or won't be enough smuggling to bother about".
If we're out of SM and CU with no trade deal in place with EU then tariffs will most likely apply.

You know how it goes buying stuff like golf clubs from USA, we have to pay customs and excise and added VAT on anything worth more than Â£120 or so, quite significant added cost it is too. We could end up in a situation like that if we can't agree the backstop which we know ERG wont let May do.
People smuggle by buying new Callaways at $1,000 over there in US as they're cheaper there (or were before the Â£ tanked after referendum), mucky them up a bit and stick them in an old golf bag pretending they took them over with them - small potatoes but still smuggling and illegal but loads of 'honest' UK golfers do it.

Lots of whisky could go from Bushmills over the border into EU undetected. Argicultural produce too.
That Stranraer to Larne ferry crossing business could become very busy indeed, more boats needed, a good investment maybe, get in now!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2019)

West of Scotland/NI shellfish market is an example once tariffs are imposed by the EU.
Land catches at NI ports and fly them from Dublin instead of Glasgow.


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## USER1999 (Feb 21, 2019)

Steel is another. Land cheap Chinese steel tariff free into the UK, ship it to the EU from Eire. Job done.


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## Fish (Feb 21, 2019)

The BBC continues to scaremonger talking about stock piling foods and other essentials should a no deal occur. 

I'm not sure if they realize, although I'm sure they do, that there will be people who will be concerned far more than others and could make themselves ill with worry, so I think this constant media output of scaremongering along these lines is disgraceful.

They (BBC) are fully aware of everything that is in place for a no deal scenario, and that in some areas a minimum period of 12 months has been agreed to ease some of the changes into place, and not, as they would like us to all think, comes to a grinding halt!

No Deal Arrangements


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## Beezerk (Feb 21, 2019)

News headline on BBC 5 Live earlier "Juncker says no deal is bad for Britain".
Actual story and quote a few minutes later "Juncker says no deal will be bad for both the UK and EU nations".

BBC = Brexit is Bad Corporation ðŸ¤£


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## Hobbit (Feb 21, 2019)

Fish said:



			The BBC continues to scaremonger talking about stock piling foods and other essentials should a no deal occur.

I'm not sure if they realize, although I'm sure they do, that there will be people who will be concerned far more than others and could make themselves ill with worry, so I think this constant media output of scaremongering along these lines is disgraceful.

They (BBC) are fully aware of everything that is in place for a no deal scenario, and that in some areas a minimum period of 12 months has been agreed to ease some of the changes into place, and not, as they would like us to all think, comes to a grinding halt!

No Deal Arrangements

Click to expand...

The Beeb put out something yesterday that said children's safety and security after Brexit will be compromised. Can't remember all the detail but it was an appalling bit of journalism. Licence fee payers are paying for that level of rubbish.


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## drdel (Feb 21, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Does volumes matter, whether its a little or a lot, still has to be accounted for?
Just because there isn't a massive flow of goods from NI into Eire now doesn't mean there couldn't be in future if an open border did offer a means to smuggle easily into EU. If we turn ourselves into a lower taxation country so goods become significantly cheaper here even more so. People could/would try to do it just to avoid hefty tariffs.

Seems like you're saying "dont be daft us Brits dont do smuggling" or "there isn't or won't be enough smuggling to bother about".
If we're out of SM and CU with no trade deal in place with EU then tariffs will most likely apply.

You know how it goes buying stuff like golf clubs from USA, we have to pay customs and excise and added VAT on anything worth more than Â£120 or so, quite significant added cost it is too. We could end up in a situation like that if we can't agree the backstop which we know ERG wont let May do.
People smuggle by buying new Callaways at $1,000 over there in US as they're cheaper there (or were before the Â£ tanked after referendum), mucky them up a bit and stick them in an old golf bag pretending they took them over with them - small potatoes but still smuggling and illegal but loads of 'honest' UK golfers do it.

Lots of whisky could go from Bushmills over the border into EU undetected. Argicultural produce too.
That Stranraer to Larne ferry crossing business could become very busy indeed, more boats needed, a good investment maybe, get in now!

Click to expand...

I think you need to think hard about practicalitie. This stuff 'smuggled' from UK to Ireland in such volumes would then need to be transported to the EU! : any such pattern would be very obvious. 

You have put words in my mouth and commented on stuff that was not in the post.


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## drdel (Feb 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The Beeb put out something yesterday that said children's safety and security after Brexit will be compromised. Can't remember all the detail but it was an appalling bit of journalism. Licence fee payers are paying for that level of rubbish.
		
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Tis funny that most of the non-UK perishables from my supermarket comes from Keyna and other places outside EU 
, but the dear old BBC are too lazy to do any research.


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The Beeb put out something yesterday that said children's safety and security after Brexit *will* be compromised. Can't remember all the detail but it was *an appalling bit of journalism*. Licence fee payers are paying for that level of rubbish.
		
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Twaddle!!!

I believe this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47298181 is the article.

The, thoroughly legit concerns expressed in the letter - from the 4 Children's Commissioners - were no different (equivalently) to those expressed by other organisations/companies with pan-European procedure, standards etc. 

They did not state safety and security *will* be compromised - the word used was '*could*' which, imo, is absolutely correct ans was one of the arguments against Brexit used, unsuccessfully,  by the Remain side. To mitigate the effect of Brexit, it is absolutely correct to seek assurances from government that (equivalent) procedures/protocols will be put in place - or continued.

It would be a derogation of duty for those 4 Commissioners not to raise the, potential, issue. Likewise, the response from 'the Ministry' was entirely appropriate. There will be loads more equivalent 'issue raised/assurance sought/assurance given' requests from all sorts of (more or less emotive sorts of) bodies. But this was always going to be one of the bureaucratic headaches about Leaving.

The article may have been 'concerning' or 'scary'. At worst, it might be label-able, by the likes of ERG,  as 'scare-mongering'. But it was certainly not 'an appalling piece of journalism'! I'm happier funding this journalism than to buy Newspapers!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!!!

I believe this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47298181 is the article.

The, thoroughly legit concerns expressed in the letter - from the 4 Children's Commissioners - were no different (equivalently) to those expressed by other organisations/companies with pan-European procedure, standards etc.

They did not state safety and security *will* be compromised - the word used was '*could*' which, imo, is absolutely correct ans was one of the arguments against Brexit used, unsuccessfully,  by the Remain side. To mitigate the effect of Brexit, it is absolutely correct to seek assurances from government that (equivalent) procedures/protocols will be put in place - or continued.

It would be a derogation of duty for those 4 Commissioners not to raise the, potential, issue. Likewise, the response from 'the Ministry' was entirely appropriate. There will be loads more equivalent 'issue raised/assurance sought/assurance given' requests from all sorts of (more or less emotive sorts of) bodies. But this was always going to be one of the bureaucratic headaches about Leaving.

The article may have been 'concerning' or 'scary'. At worst, it might be label-able, by the likes of ERG,  as 'scare-mongering'. But it was certainly not 'an appalling piece of journalism'! I'm happier funding this journalism than to buy Newspapers!
		
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Twaddle!!!!!!!!   Why would the UK and EU not communicate over child abuse after Brexit?  Will some iron curtain descend down the middle of the channel, it's hyped twaddle of the first order.


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## Mudball (Feb 21, 2019)

BTW, i might have missed this news..   So the richest British fella who is a keen Brexit supporter has decided to leave Britian for Tax purposes.  Surely nothing to do with Brexit, but such hypocrisy.. 

https://inews.co.uk/news/britains-richest-man-jim-ratcliffe-ineos-tax-plan/


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think you need to think hard about practicalitie. This stuff 'smuggled' from UK to Ireland in such volumes would then need to be transported to the EU! : any such pattern would be very obvious.

You have put words in my mouth and commented on stuff that was not in the post.
		
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Are you aware that the NI/Ireland Border is over 300 miles long......I doubt it.
By comparison the Scottish border with England is 96 miles
PS...â€¦..On reflection, I don't think you are even aware that Ireland is actually in the EU.


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle!!!!!!!!   Why would the UK and EU not communicate over child abuse after Brexit?  Will some iron curtain descend down the middle of the channel, it's hyped twaddle of the first order.
		
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Indeed... twaddle! The Commissioners are simply doing their job - seeking reassurance that the government has it covered! And, if you can actually be bothered to look rather than simply over-react, Hobbit's main criticism seemed to be about the quality of journalism, not the content!

Do you panic when a police car goes past your house? Or do you simply feel 'comfortable' knowing they are 'out and about'!

PS. That number of exclamation marks is excessive, even for you - at least at this time of evening!


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## drdel (Feb 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Are you aware that the NI/Ireland Border is over 300 miles long......I doubt it.
By comparison the Scottish border with England is 96 miles
PS...â€¦..On reflection, *I don't think you are even aware that Ireland is actually in the EU*.

Click to expand...

Read the Post and don't be a twit.


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			... don't be a twit.
		
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Wasted words!


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## Mudball (Feb 21, 2019)

So our great Brexiteer Trade Sec who promised to have trade deals done in a jiffy after we left the EU now says that it canâ€™t be done on time. I am assuming we do tons of trade with Faroe Islands and the Palestine Authority 

So are Breshitters now dabbling in Project Fear?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed... twaddle! The Commissioners are simply doing their job - seeking reassurance that the government has it covered! And, if you can actually be bothered to look rather than simply over-react, Hobbit's main criticism seemed to be about the quality of journalism, not the content!

Do you panic when a police car goes past your house? Or do you simply feel 'comfortable' knowing they are 'out and about'!

PS. That number of exclamation marks is excessive, even for you - at least at this time of evening!
		
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 My point was nothing to do with Hobbits post.  No, I don't  panic when a police car goes past my house. I thought I would join the trend you set with over Exclaimanizating (learned that one from George Bush Junior)


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So our great Brexiteer Trade Sec who promised to have trade deals done in a jiffy after we left the EU now says that it canâ€™t be done on time. I am assuming we do tons of trade with Faroe Islands and the Palestine Authority

So are Breshitters now dabbling in Project Fear?
		
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Brexshiteers sounds better ðŸ‘


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			My point was nothing to do with Hobbits post.  No, I don't  panic when a police car goes past my house. I thought I would join the trend you set with over Exclaimanizating (learned that one from George Bush Junior)
		
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And I thought you were a 'leader' not a 'follower'!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:




And I thought you were a 'leader' not a 'follower'! 

Click to expand...

I don't frequent such places.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 21, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Itâ€™s currently IN the lounge, now we must vote whether to LEAVE and move to OOB.
		
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You have  to stay in the lounge for forty years before you get a vote.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 21, 2019)

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...pect-their-constituents-vote-on-brexit/24/05/

Bit naughty... needs to be de selected for not following constituencyâ€™s opinion.


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...pect-their-constituents-vote-on-brexit/24/05/

Bit naughty... needs to be de selected for not following constituencyâ€™s opinion.
		
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I'm sure he'd argue (far more eloquently than me) that he was following the Party Manifesto, whereas they weren't. And as the Referendum didn't use Parliamentary electorates, (I believe Council ones were used) he might be able to argue that absolute comparison in 'his' area, covering Bath as well as his Parliamentary electorate (North East Somerset) was inappropriate.


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## oxymoron (Feb 22, 2019)

Why the hell is Corbyn going to Brussels to tell them his version of an exit plan ? Last time i looked he was not in charge of the government so why is he over there ? This stuff is just playing in to their hands regarding negotiations
he needs to keep out of it and just keep representing terrorists and their wives who want to return here . He really is a t**t of the first order .

Rant over now going to watch the Sheffield flypast in honor of people who died to keep us free so this knob could spout his crap .


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## spongebob59 (Feb 22, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Why the hell is Corbyn going to Brussels to tell them his version of an exit plan ? Last time i looked he was not in charge of the government so why is he over there ? This stuff is just playing in to their hands regarding negotiations
he needs to keep out of it and just keep representing terrorists and their wives who want to return here . He really is a t**t of the first order .

Rant over now going to watch the Sheffield flypast in honor of people who died to keep us free so this knob could spout his crap .
		
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Especially when he took Stamer with him and they don't seem to agree on anything !


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## drdel (Feb 22, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Why the hell is Corbyn going to Brussels to tell them his version of an exit plan ? Last time i looked he was not in charge of the government so why is he over there ? This stuff is just playing in to their hands regarding negotiations
he needs to keep out of it and just keep representing terrorists and their wives who want to return here . He really is a t**t of the first order .

Rant over now going to watch the Sheffield flypast in honor of people who died to keep us free so this knob could spout his crap .
		
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He's not even bright enough to realise that Barnier et al are using him and Starmer to contest the UK's position. What a surprise revelation that they support his desire for a customs union


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## harpo_72 (Feb 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm sure he'd argue (far more eloquently than me) that he was following the Party Manifesto, whereas they weren't. And as the Referendum didn't use Parliamentary electorates, (I believe Council ones were used) he might be able to argue that absolute comparison in 'his' area, covering Bath as well as his Parliamentary electorate (North East Somerset) was inappropriate.
		
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Perhaps but he wasnâ€™t given the right by his constituency think I would ask for him to be removed as he is not representing me. I think some have made the comment about Anna Soubry not representing her constituency.


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## Slime (Feb 22, 2019)

oxymoron said:



*Why the hell is Corbyn going to Brussels *to tell them his version of an exit plan ? Last time i looked he was not in charge of the government so why is he over there ? This stuff is just playing in to their hands regarding negotiations
he needs to keep out of it and just keep representing terrorists and their wives who want to return here . He really is a t**t of the first order .

Rant over now going to watch the Sheffield flypast in honor of people who died to keep us free so this knob could spout his crap .
		
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To cause chaos ........................... it's what he does.


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Perhaps but he wasnâ€™t given the right by his constituency think I would ask for him to be removed as he is not representing me. I think some have made the comment about Anna Soubry not representing her constituency.
		
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Is it YOUR contituency? If not, what right do you have to suggest one way or the other?

Btw. I'm not suggesting your view is wrong, merely somewhat 'undemocratic' (well, at least in the UK version of democracy!).


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## drdel (Feb 22, 2019)

Interesting that the Dublin plan, in the event of a No Deal, is to use technology and precleared customs to avoid border checks!!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			Interesting that the Dublin plan, in the event of a No Deal, is to use technology and precleared customs to avoid border checks!!
		
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This whole idiotic situation with the Irish border has been manipulated by the EU's insistence that a free trade agreement would not be negotiated untill the Irish border and monetry settlement had been agreed.  If we would have got on with the trade agreement instead of prevaricating over the border there wouldn't be an issue.  We were really stupid to go along with that and I can't understand why May isn't making more  mileage from it.


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## Stuart_C (Feb 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Put Blackstock on a diet and you may fit a few more in.
		
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What a crass comment to make. Disgusting.


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			This whole idiotic situation with the Irish border has been manipulated by the EU's insistence that *a free trade agreement would not be negotiated untill the Irish border and monetry settlement had been agreed*.  If we would have got on with the trade agreement instead of prevaricating over the border there wouldn't be an issue.  We were really stupid to go along with that and I can't understand why May isn't making more  mileage from it.
		
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That was pretty obviously ALWAYS going to be the case though! 

The EU has ALWAYS been in control of the agenda! That's why the 'threat' of No Deal (with consequent damage to the economy of EU members) is UK's 'best' negotiating position.

It's all about brinkmanship - and EU seems far stonger/united at that than the UK!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 22, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Why the hell is Corbyn going to Brussels to tell them his version of an exit plan ? Last time i looked he was not in charge of the government so why is he over there ? This stuff is just playing in to their hands regarding negotiations
he needs to keep out of it and just keep representing terrorists and their wives who want to return here . He really is a t**t of the first order .

Rant over now going to watch the Sheffield flypast in honor of people who died to keep us free so this knob could spout his crap .
		
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Please remember their have been plenty of Labour supporters who have given their life for this Country and most died to ensure democracy and freedom of speech. You canâ€™t pick and choose who died on whoâ€™s behalf.

Surely we should be trying by any means to ensure we get a deal approved by Parliament on Brexit and if Corbyn can help that process then why not!


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...
Surely we should be trying by any means to ensure we get a deal approved by Parliament on Brexit and if Corbyn can help that process then why not!
		
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You have a far more generous view of Corbyn's motives than I do!!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			What a crass comment to make. Disgusting.
		
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 ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚  Good try but a bit pathetic considering your previous.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please remember their have been plenty of Labour supporters who have given their life for this Country and most died to ensure democracy and freedom of speech. You canâ€™t pick and choose who died on whoâ€™s behalf.

Surely we should be trying by any means to ensure we get a deal approved by Parliament on Brexit and if Corbyn can help that process then why not!
		
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Fine sentiments but hardly appropriate in this case. What exactly has people giving their lives for their country got to do with him, he has made a career of cosying up to enemies of our country.  I also cant see how he should be talking to the EU negotiators on our behalf, all he can be doing is advising them how to screw us.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You have a far more generous view of Corbyn's motives than I do!!
		
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Gee thanks!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Fine sentiments but hardly appropriate in this case. What exactly has people giving their lives for their country got to do with him, he has made a career of cosying up to enemies of our country.  I also cant see how he should be talking to the EU negotiators on our behalf, all he can be doing is advising them how to screw us.
		
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Because instead of actually seeing what Corbyn can or cannot do we get the same old lines dragged out.
Mandella was a classed as a terrorist, the Queen shook hands with the IRA etc, move on and dismiss him on his current policies not something that may or may not have had an impact on the troubles in NI nearly 50 years ago.
Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party and supporters of all Parties have given their lives in defence of this Country.


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...
Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party and supporters of all Parties have given their lives in defence of this Country.
		
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Please excuse me if I don't trust him or his motives!

The Labour Party would, imo, be far better seved if Yvette Cooper was leader! Provided she could keep 'her old man' out of the limelight!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because instead of actually seeing what Corbyn can or cannot do we get the same old lines dragged out.
Mandella was a classed as a terrorist, the Queen shook hands with the IRA etc, move on and dismiss him on his current policies not something that may or may not have had an impact on the troubles in NI nearly 50 years ago.
Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party and supporters of all Parties have given their lives in defence of this Country.
		
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Your saying it again, Corbyn isnt giving his life for anyone, I can't understand why you are posting this.
Corbyn is a nasty, two faced hypocrite who is a real threat to this country. The movements in his party this week are just the start, he has overstayed his role and will soon be turfed out before he destroys his once great party.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Your saying it again, Corbyn isnt giving his life for anyone, I can't understand why you are posting this.
Corbyn is a nasty, two faced hypocrite who is a real threat to this country. The movements in his party this week are just the start, he has overstayed his role and will soon be turfed out before he destroys his once great party.
		
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Have you or did you read the Labour Party Manifesto at the last GE and their/his policy on Defence?

Were has he ever stated he doesnâ€™t support our servicemen and women?

Perhaps people should do their own research rather than what they read in the papers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Please excuse me if I don't trust him or his motives!

The Labour Party would, imo, be far better seved if Yvette Cooper was leader! Provided she could keep 'her old man' out of the limelight!
		
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Great, well done on having an opinion!


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...
Corbyn is a nasty, two faced hypocrite...
		
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Seems to me that's a 'job requirement' for any politician! So an unintended compliment!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Have you or did you read the Labour Party Manifesto at the last GE and their/his policy on Defence?

Were has he ever stated he doesnâ€™t support our servicemen and women?

Perhaps people should do their own research rather than what they read in the papers.
		
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Have you been drinking?  Where did I mention his stance on defence, when I say he is a threat to this country I mean the damage he would do to the countries economy and just about every other sphere he could influence and while you mention it our defence as well, would you trust him with that?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me that's a 'job requirement' for any politician! So an unintended compliment!
		
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I dont share that level of cynicism, there are many Politicians of all parties who are honourable people with good intentions.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Have you been drinking?  Where did I mention his stance on defence, when I say he is a threat to this country I mean the damage he would do to the countries economy and just about every other sphere he could influence and while you mention it our defence as well, would you trust him with that?
		
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Right now, yes I would if they did what they promised in their manifesto.
Have our Armed Forces improved or declined under the Tories?
At least Labour continually exceeded the 2% of GDP on Defence when in charge, the tories are not doing that, we now have fewer planes, ships, people.
But try and have a discusdion on this and straight away we get the same old, same old, terrorist sympathiser.


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## Foxholer (Feb 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont share that level of cynicism, there are* many Politicians of all parties who are honourable people with good intentions*.
		
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I agree! But, imo, there's a certain amount of 'hipocracy' that seems to be a 'requirement of the job' - at least in The Commons! It seems to me that there's more scope for genuine freedom and ideals in 'the other place'! That's part of the reasons why i'm a fan of the 2-house system!


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## harpo_72 (Feb 23, 2019)

The Tories only have a few policies.
1. Sell it, make a few people rich, screw the rest.
2. Reduce the taxes on the people who can afford to pay taxes, causing a degeneration of public services.

Those are pretty destructive in their own right. 
Labour ? Only had one meaningful stint in power in my life time. Everything was fine the economy was under control, until the bankers â€œtook the pissâ€, but there was a push to de-shackle them from certain quarters. Oh and the Iraq war which was agreed to by nearly everyone and their dog in the house, so they are all to blame for that.

So where does that leave us? Corbyn is no worse than the Tories until he proves otherwise and all views on his performance are speculative and have no evidence to back them up - so definitely â€œproject FEARâ€ ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Hobbit (Feb 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Right now, yes I would if they did what they promised in their manifesto.
Have our Armed Forces improved or declined under the Tories?
At least Labour continually exceeded the 2% of GDP on Defence when in charge, the tories are not doing that, we now have fewer planes, ships, people.
But try and have a discusdion on this and straight away we get the same old, same old, terrorist sympathiser.
		
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The Labour Party of today is a very different beast than the one that was in govt. When youâ€™ve got long standing MPâ€™s like Ian Austin leaving thereâ€™s a serious problem. 

And as for the whiff of anti-semitism that just wonâ€™t go away. 673 cases of alleged Antisemitism investigated in the Labour Party in the last 9 months. Not half a doz or 20, 673. 12 members kicked out, and Derek Hatton, the day after being reinstated, suspended...


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## Stuart_C (Feb 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚  Good try but a bit pathetic considering your previous.
		
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I'm glad you find it funny, why did you edit your original response?

Coward


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			I'm glad you find it funny, why did you edit your original response?

Coward
		
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Because I released that you were not attacking my post as such but trying to score points.   I refer you to that post where you suggested anyone who voted leave deserved to be punished and how you are trying to have a handbag fight over it.   Grow up matey


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## Stuart_C (Feb 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Because I released that you were not attacking my post as such but trying to score points.   I refer you to that post where you suggested anyone who voted leave deserved to be punished and how you are trying to have a handbag fight over it.   Grow up matey 

Click to expand...

Actually i wasnt, it was a disgusting post. 

I've said my piece on that issue and no matter how much you want to go round in circles, as you usually do, i won't.

I suggest you heed your own advice.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Right now, yes I would if they did what they promised in their manifesto.
Have our Armed Forces improved or declined under the Tories?
At least Labour continually exceeded the 2% of GDP on Defence when in charge, the tories are not doing that, we now have fewer planes, ships, people.
But try and have a discusdion on this and straight away we get the same old, same old, terrorist sympathiser.
		
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You are prevaricating again.  The discussion was about Corbyn going to the EU to have talks with Barnier behind the Governments back.   You started off on one about the war.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are prevaricating again.  The discussion was about Corbyn going to the EU to have talks with Barnier behind the Governments back.   You started off on one about the war.
		
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No, my original post was in response to the about Corbyn and the same old lazy comments and flag waving.
You decided to answer my post.

If someone wants to criticise Corbyn and whether he should or should get involved with Brexit fine, but use facts, it certainly wasnâ€™t behind anyones back it was announced days ago, so connecting it to yesterdayâ€™s flypast and his supposed terrorist links etc is wrong imo.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The Labour Party of today is a very different beast than the one that was in govt. When youâ€™ve got long standing MPâ€™s like Ian Austin leaving thereâ€™s a serious problem.

And as for the whiff of anti-semitism that just wonâ€™t go away. 673 cases of alleged Antisemitism investigated in the Labour Party in the last 9 months. Not half a doz or 20, 673. 12 members kicked out, and Derek Hatton, the day after being reinstated, suspended...
		
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Maybe so Brian, no issue with that and guess what, youâ€™ve stated facts not dropped back to the lazy historical unproven stuff.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2019)

Flypast!   Who mentioned a Flypast?  

You seem to be getting confused, I only posted that IMO he shouldn't be going to the EU negotiators, it was you that expanded that into defense.


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Because I released that you were not attacking my post as such but trying to score points.   I refer you to that post where you suggested anyone who voted leave deserved to be punished and how you are trying to have a handbag fight over it.   Grow up matey 

Click to expand...

Everyone who voted leave will be punished. Sadly so will those of us who voted to remain.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Flypast!   Who mentioned a Flypast? 

You seem to be getting confused, I only posted that IMO he shouldn't be going to the EU negotiators, it was you that expanded that into defense.
		
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No you didnâ€™t, read your first response to me last night,


SocketRocket said:



			Fine sentiments but hardly appropriate in this case. What exactly has people giving their lives for their country got to do with him, he has made a career of cosying up to enemies of our country.  I also cant see how he should be talking to the EU negotiators on our behalf, all he can be doing is advising them how to screw us.
		
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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No you didnâ€™t, read your first response to me last night,



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That was in response to you expanding the debate into defense.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Everyone who voted leave will be punished. Sadly so will those of us who voted to remain.
		
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Will that be before or after the sky falls on us.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That was in response to you expanding the debate into defense.
		
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Nice try, I was addressing all the points in Oxymorons post, I didnâ€™t realise I had to seek your approval for my responses!


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Will that be before or after the sky falls on us.
		
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Deep.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Deep.
		
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Shallow


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## Hobbit (Feb 23, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Deep.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Shallow
		
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Wrong thread... "word of the day"


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 24, 2019)

I have been told by a EU expert that Turkey are offering a free trade deal with the UK  but insist on free movement.
Brilliant.
Best offer yet.

BTW this expert has never shown any deep previous interest in politics before Brexit and is starting to get very angry shouty and sweary [most unlike her] the nearer 29th of March comes


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have been told by a EU expert that Turkey are offering a free trade deal with the UK  but insist on free movement.
Brilliant.
Best offer yet.

BTW this expert has never shown any deep previous interest in politics before Brexit and is starting to get very angry shouty and sweary [most unlike her] the nearer 29th of March comes
		
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Time you told her to go cook your breakfast then!


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## drdel (Feb 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have been told by a EU expert that Turkey are offering a free trade deal with the UK  but insist on free movement.
Brilliant.
Best offer yet.

BTW this expert has never shown any deep previous interest in politics before Brexit and is starting to get very angry shouty and sweary [most unlike her] the nearer 29th of March comes
		
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"...a EU expert..." in what exact field of expertise?


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## Fade and Die (Feb 24, 2019)

When I voted to leave the EU what I actually meant was stay minus the veto and lose any say at all over our future. I also voted leave so we could join the Euro. 

I may of thought leave meant leave but I am a thicko who didnâ€™t understand what I was doing and just wanted all the blacks and Asians to go home to Poland.

Iâ€™m now convinced that only well off progressive liberals should be allowed to vote because the rest of us canâ€™t be trusted to get the right result.


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## robinthehood (Feb 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			When I voted to leave the EU what I actually meant was stay minus the veto and lose any say at all over our future. I also voted leave so we could join the Euro. 

I may of thought leave meant leave but I am a thicko who didnâ€™t understand what I was doing and just wanted all the blacks and Asians to go home to Poland.

Iâ€™m now convinced that only well off progressive liberals should be allowed to vote because the rest of us canâ€™t be trusted to get the right result.
		
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Sounds about right


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## Kellfire (Feb 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Sounds about right
		
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Scary how a joke post is so accurate though.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			"...a EU expert..." in what exact field of expertise?
		
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Breakfast cooking. [as if]

Just when you thought that this government could not get any more incompetent they take it to a higher level.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 24, 2019)

The vote goes back again ðŸ˜±.


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## User62651 (Feb 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The vote goes back again ðŸ˜±.
		
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11th hour concessions from EU being relied upon, ERG guy said it on tv yesterday, 'we must hold our nerve and keep no deal as our bargaining chip', that's the govt tactic it seems, dangerous game though and somewhat desperate given what the public was sold pre referendum.


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## drdel (Feb 24, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			11th hour concessions from EU being relied upon, ERG guy said it on tv yesterday, 'we must hold our nerve and keep no deal as our bargaining chip', that's the govt tactic it seems, dangerous game though and somewhat desperate given what the public was sold pre referendum.

Click to expand...

True but any really 'big' negotiations with a pre-declared end date always go this way - its the nature of the beast!

When you have people on both side bleating on twitter and other silly places the 'negotiators' almost become a sideline act and divorced from the severity of the core subject.  Tusk is reported to have said his comments about ".. a place in hell..." were* intended *to cause consternation demonstrates a lack of statesmanship and how juvenile he is.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2019)

There was a stat on Andrew Marr this morning showing potential price rises for a few foods after Brexit. One of them was Cheddar cheese which was predicted to rise in price by between 6% and 32% (or possibly 22%). Now I'm not suggesting this is wrong or it's Project Fear but can anyone explain how a cheese made in England will become more expensive due to Brexit? I'm assuming that they don't import vast quantities of milk to make the cheese so why would it get up to a third more expensive? What have I missed?


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## Fish (Feb 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			There was a stat on Andrew Marr this morning showing potential price rises for a few foods after Brexit. One of them was Cheddar cheese which was predicted to rise in price by between 6% and 32% (or possibly 22%). Now I'm not suggesting this is wrong or it's Project Fear but can anyone explain how a cheese made in England will become more expensive due to Brexit? I'm assuming that they don't import vast quantities of milk to make the cheese so why would it get up to a third more expensive? What have I missed?
		
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Hard border for hard cheese production across Devon ðŸ˜œ


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			There was a stat on Andrew Marr this morning showing potential price rises for a few foods after Brexit. One of them was Cheddar cheese which was predicted to rise in price by between 6% and 32% (or possibly 22%). Now I'm not suggesting this is wrong or it's Project Fear but can anyone explain how a cheese made in England will become more expensive due to Brexit? I'm assuming that they don't import vast quantities of milk to make the cheese so why would it get up to a third more expensive? What have I missed?
		
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Cheese [and most foods] has never been cheaper, so it could also be a leveling of the market.

Crazy situation in the UK/EU where farmers are heavily subsidised to produce cheap food, cut the subsidy and pay the proper price to the farmers.
Tatties, Neeps and Kale are all very cheap so the UK should not starve in a post UKIP/ERG/Tory Brexit.


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## Sweep (Feb 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			There was a stat on Andrew Marr this morning showing potential price rises for a few foods after Brexit. One of them was Cheddar cheese which was predicted to rise in price by between 6% and 32% (or possibly 22%). Now I'm not suggesting this is wrong or it's Project Fear but can anyone explain how a cheese made in England will become more expensive due to Brexit? I'm assuming that they don't import vast quantities of milk to make the cheese so why would it get up to a third more expensive? What have I missed?
		
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The key word was â€œpotentialâ€. They usually use â€œcouldâ€, â€œmightâ€, â€œmayâ€, â€œpossiblyâ€


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## Fade and Die (Feb 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			There was a stat on Andrew Marr this morning showing potential price rises for a few foods after Brexit. One of them was Cheddar cheese which was predicted to rise in price by between 6% and 32% (or possibly 22%). Now I'm not suggesting this is wrong or it's Project Fear but can anyone explain how a cheese made in England will become more expensive due to Brexit? I'm assuming that they don't import vast quantities of milk to make the cheese so why would it get up to a third more expensive? What have I missed?
		
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How about this cracker....

â€˜Whitehall fears corpses piling up at ports in the event of no-dealâ€™

This would be dead non UK nationals waiting to be repatriated.
Can you imagine the hilarity in the city wine bar last night when some half-cut civil servants had a bet that some hack would print that? And the Sunday Times did! Investigative journalism at itâ€™s best.

ðŸ¤”Now that I think about it Has anyone thought to check the fuel levels in the back up generators that power the raptor pen? ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2019)

Fish said:



			Hard border for hard cheese production across Devon ðŸ˜œ
		
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We are also charging double for cider, the real stuff, not the fizzie muck @Fish drinks


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## oxymoron (Feb 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Nice try, I was addressing all the points in Oxymorons post, I didnâ€™t realise I had to seek your approval for my responses! 

Click to expand...

No i dont think you were , where did i specifically link Corbyn with the flypast ?  I just said i was off to watch it, sorry if you wanted it in a separate post .

I was not "flag waving " as you seem to infer but if you see it as that then crack on, perhaps in all this we would be better off if indeed we did flag wave a bit more instead of putting ourselves down at every opportunity .


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## oxymoron (Feb 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, my original post was in response to the about Corbyn and the same old lazy comments and flag waving.
You decided to answer my post.

If someone wants to criticise Corbyn and whether he should or should get involved with Brexit fine, but use facts, it certainly wasnâ€™t behind anyones back it was announced days ago,* so connecting it to yesterdayâ€™s flypast* and his supposed terrorist links etc is wrong imo.
		
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Again you connect it , see post above.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 25, 2019)

As an outsider Do ye what i get from this thread the more often i read it ?? For the record Im not taking sides .i Dont care if ye stay or go tbh 

Its clear from the debate that None of ye actually know whats going to happen . It appears nobody does .. good or bad how did ur government get u to a position where u are weeks from leaving and nobody knows the full consequences. 

That itself is scarier than leaving or staying .


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 25, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			As an outsider Do ye what i get from this thread the more often i read it ?? For the record Im not taking sides .i Dont care if ye stay or go tbh

Its clear from the debate that None of ye actually know whats going to happen . It appears nobody does .. good or bad how did ur government get u to a position where u are weeks from leaving and nobody knows the full consequences.

That itself is scarier than leaving or staying .
		
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100%. I've been sent an email from the local Chamber of Commerce inviting me to a day of talks on what happens after Brexit. Apparently there will be experts there. What will they talk about? It's all hypothetical as virtually a month from leaving and we are still in the dark, genuinely in the dark. As a business owner this situation is awful. The govt are incompetent, I am sure you have picked that up over in Ireland.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 25, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			As an outsider Do ye what i get from this thread the more often i read it ?? For the record Im not taking sides .i Dont care if ye stay or go tbh

Its clear from the debate that None of ye actually know whats going to happen . It appears nobody does .. good or bad h*ow did ur government get u to a position where u are weeks from leaving and nobody knows the full consequences*.

That itself is scarier than leaving or staying .
		
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Incompetence, arrogance, complete overestimation of their actual abilities, desperate need to appeal to the noisy voices of a few on the extremes of their party over getting a majority of MPs on board from all sides, starting the countdown clock when they had not got anywhere near a consensus on how they would execute it,  take your pick.

And you are right, this is the lot that will lead us into a brave new world.  Opposed by a complete shambles of an opposition.


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## Sweep (Feb 25, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			As an outsider Do ye what i get from this thread the more often i read it ?? For the record Im not taking sides .i Dont care if ye stay or go tbh

Its clear from the debate that None of ye actually know whats going to happen . It appears nobody does .. good or bad how did ur government get u to a position where u are weeks from leaving and nobody knows the full consequences.

That itself is scarier than leaving or staying .
		
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Are you talking about our UK government or our EU government? It seems both have to take responsibility for negotiating for 2 years and coming up with virtually nothing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 25, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			No i dont think you were , where did i specifically link Corbyn with the flypast ?  I just said i was off to watch it, sorry if you wanted it in a separate post .

I was not "flag waving " as you seem to infer but if you see it as that then crack on, perhaps in all this we would be better off if indeed we did flag wave a bit more instead of putting ourselves down at every opportunity .
		
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Probably the bit after you called him a terrorist when you stated you were watching the flypast and remembering those who gave their lives so he (knob) could spout his crap.

Iâ€™ve never put this Country down, infact Iâ€™d argue you only seeing one side in everything does the Country no favours.


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## Sweep (Feb 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Incompetence, arrogance, complete overestimation of their actual abilities, desperate need to appeal to the noisy voices of a few on the extremes of their party over getting a majority of MPs on board from all sides, starting the countdown clock when they had not got anywhere near a consensus on how they would execute it,  take your pick.

And you are right, this is the lot that will lead us into a brave new world.  Opposed by a complete shambles of an opposition.
		
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Again, there are two sides to the negotiation. Both are at fault. Neither has been negotiating in good faith. Neither has put the people they govern first.
And to be fair, the two years period is an EU rule. If we havenâ€™t been able to reach an agreement when the clock was ticking, just imagine the chances of reaching consensus if we hadnâ€™t triggered A50.


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## drdel (Feb 25, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			As an outsider Do ye what i get from this thread the more often i read it ?? For the record Im not taking sides .i Dont care if ye stay or go tbh 

Its clear from the debate that None of ye actually know whats going to happen . It appears nobody does .. good or bad how did ur government get u to a position where u are weeks from leaving and nobody knows the full consequences. 

That itself is scarier than leaving or staying .
		
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You think what you like, some of us are pretty clear about what the future options are.

It should be clear that the only priority for Ireland is driven simply by the need to keep the Euro grants and loans flooding in. Only problem is the EU  has fundamental economic problems with the Ponzi debt strategy enabling them to provide unsustainable support for members that take out of the pot when the net funders are also in trouble. 

The gravy train that has protected your country's weak finances is about to hit the buffers of reality.


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## oxymoron (Feb 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably the bit after you called him a terrorist when you stated you were watching the flypast and remembering those who gave their lives so he (knob) could spout his crap.

Iâ€™ve never put this Country down, infact Iâ€™d argue you only seeing one side in everything does the Country no favours.
		
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I actually said "representing terrorists " , called him a t**t though .

If you look back i also posted somewhere that this is too big a deal for one party and it should have been a cross party negotiation , i do not think i see only one side however i do tend to look positive and think we can progress as a nation if only the doom mongers would give it a chance , the glass may be half empty but we have a great chance to fill the glass !!


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## Mudball (Feb 25, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Again, there are two sides to the negotiation. Both are at fault.* Neither has been negotiating in good faith. Neither has put the people they govern first*.
And to be fair, the two years period is an EU rule. If we havenâ€™t been able to reach an agreement when the clock was ticking, just imagine the chances of reaching consensus if we hadnâ€™t triggered A50.
		
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Not picking on this post but the sentiment.   Why do the leavers think the EU has not negotiated in good faith.  The EU have maintained a straight bat on what they wanted all along.  The incompetence of a weak govt that wants to pander  to the extreme right along with a weak opposition that can get their heads out of their backsides mean that we havent been able to get our side sorted.  We expected all the German auto manufacturers will force their government to get a good deal - this has not materialised instead we have the like of Porsche which have said prices will rise 10% because of Brexit and customers will have to pay for it.  

Dont blame the EU for having a strong position.   

If Scotland had voted for its independence and this was a Scotland v England debate, I am sure England would be taking a hard line (just as EU is doing).  So lets stop blaming them for our failure


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## MegaSteve (Feb 25, 2019)

Brussels only has interest/concern for its own fiefdom... It's really not bothered about the wider needs/concerns of the citizens...


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## bladeplayer (Feb 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			You think what you like, some of us are pretty clear about what the future options are.

It should be clear that the only priority for Ireland is driven simply by the need to keep the Euro grants and loans flooding in. Only problem is the EU  has fundamental economic problems with the Ponzi debt strategy enabling them to provide unsustainable support for members that take out of the pot when the net funders are also in trouble. 

The gravy train that has protected your country's weak finances is about to hit the buffers of reality.
		
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How can u be sure of options when u dont know whats going to hapoen yet ? 

Actualy  Im glad u are clear . But surprised that the people entrusted to make the decisions are not 
1st we hear . No deal better than bad deal 

Then its no deal cant happen . 

Im on record saying we are a yes country to europe because of grants etc im well aware of it .  

2 years planning it   weeks remaining and they cant get areeement in westminster let alone a workable plan to take back to EU .. 

But at least a few on here are clear


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## drdel (Feb 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Brussels only has interest/concern for its own fiefdom... It's really not bothered about the wider needs/concerns of the citizens...
		
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Bang on- there's no way these turkeys will vote for Christmas. They will continue their proflicacy with budget increases at rates that are out of step with the economic performance of member states.  For example, the artificial food subsidies create surplus food held in stores while people go hungry : disgusting.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 25, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			How can u be sure of options when u dont know whats going to hapoen yet ? 

Actualy  Im glad u are clear . But surprised that the people entrusted to make the decisions are not 
1st we hear . No deal better than bad deal 

Then its no deal cant happen . 

Im on record saying we are a yes country to europe because of grants etc im well aware of it .  

2 years planning it   weeks remaining and they cant get areeement in westminster let alone a workable plan to take back to EU .. 

But at least a few on here are clear
		
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Part of the 'problem' is that politicians, in general, don't like being told what to do... They prefer to set the agenda and for us to say yes please...


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## bladeplayer (Feb 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Part of the 'problem' is that politicians, in general, don't like being told what to do... They prefer to set the agenda and for us to say yes please...
		
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Welcome to Ireland ðŸ˜Š


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## bladeplayer (Feb 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Brussels only has interest/concern for its own fiefdom... It's really not bothered about the wider needs/concerns of the citizens...
		
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Are u surprised ? 
What politicians in any country realy care one they are elected ? 
Do uk politicans care 
Do Irl politicians care 

Not a jot


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## MegaSteve (Feb 25, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Are u surprised ? 
What politicians in any country realy care one they are elected ? 
Do uk politicans care 
Do Irl politicians care 

Not a jot
		
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No I am not... But I'd only like to be paying for one lot of wasters... And, as I was never likely to be given the opportunity of dispatching Westminster it had to be cheerio Brussels...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2019)

UK...â€¦â€¦. we are leaving you.
EU...â€¦â€¦...sorry to hear that
UK...â€¦â€¦..ah but we are only leaving you under our terms and these are our red lines.
EU...â€¦â€¦..Ok that seems fair we agree.
A few weeks later
UK...â€¦â€¦..hang on we also want X,Y and Z
EU â€¦â€¦â€¦..sorry we have an agreement.

Really tough sods to negotiate with them EU blighters.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2019)

When a politician asks for no-deal to be removed from the table how do they expect negotiations to conclude if there can be no agreement.  I suspect what they are actually meaning is to stay in the EU rather than leaving on WTO rules.  IMO the public, when asked, voted to leave the EU so removing No-deal means there is no default condition (backstop) that meets the referendums instruction.    We seem to have a parliament with a majority of remainers and a public with a majority of leavers, the parliament remainers also seem to want a second referendum in the hope they get the decision they prefer.

You couldn't  make it up.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			UK...â€¦â€¦. we are leaving you.
EU...â€¦â€¦...sorry to hear that
UK...â€¦â€¦..ah but we are only leaving you under our terms and these are our red lines.
EU...â€¦â€¦..Ok that seems fair we agree.
A few weeks later
UK...â€¦â€¦..hang on we also want X,Y and Z
EU â€¦â€¦â€¦..sorry we have an agreement.

Really tough sods to negotiate with them EU blighters.
		
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But we don't have an agreement, the agreement needed ratification by all EU member states and the UK Parliament.   You missed that bit. I wonder why ðŸ¤”


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## bladeplayer (Feb 25, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			No I am not... But I'd only like to be paying for one lot of wasters... And, as I was never likely to be given the opportunity of dispatching Westminster it had to be cheerio Brussels...
		
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Fair point


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 25, 2019)

OOOOO.... looks like a second referendum now thanks to Jeremy.


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OOOOO.... looks like a second referendum now thanks to Jeremy.
		
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Momentum shoved his arm up his back.


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2019)

H'mm!

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf

Though there is defintely 'wiggle room'!


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Momentum shoved his arm up his back.
		
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Twaddle!


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## Sweep (Feb 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			UK...â€¦â€¦. we are leaving you.
EU...â€¦â€¦...sorry to hear that
UK...â€¦â€¦..ah but we are only leaving you under our terms and these are our red lines.
EU...â€¦â€¦..Ok that seems fair we agree.
A few weeks later
UK...â€¦â€¦..hang on we also want X,Y and Z
EU â€¦â€¦â€¦..sorry we have an agreement.

Really tough sods to negotiate with them EU blighters.
		
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Utter rubbish and devoid of reality


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!
		
Click to expand...

That's correct, they shoved it up his twaddle. ðŸ˜‰


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## harpo_72 (Feb 25, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Not picking on this post but the sentiment.   Why do the leavers think the EU has not negotiated in good faith.  The EU have maintained a straight bat on what they wanted all along.  The incompetence of a weak govt that wants to pander  to the extreme right along with a weak opposition that can get their heads out of their backsides mean that we havent been able to get our side sorted.  We expected all the German auto manufacturers will force their government to get a good deal - this has not materialised instead we have the like of Porsche which have said prices will rise 10% because of Brexit and customers will have to pay for it. 

Dont blame the EU for having a strong position.  

If Scotland had voted for its independence and this was a Scotland v England debate, I am sure England would be taking a hard line (just as EU is doing).  So lets stop blaming them for our failure
		
Click to expand...

I love the blame culture here, itâ€™s everyone elseâ€™s fault, itâ€™s not going to plan, the EU are not rolling over , the remainers are sabotaging our great idea ....


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## Sweep (Feb 25, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Not picking on this post but the sentiment.   Why do the leavers think the EU has not negotiated in good faith.  The EU have maintained a straight bat on what they wanted all along.  The incompetence of a weak govt that wants to pander  to the extreme right along with a weak opposition that can get their heads out of their backsides mean that we havent been able to get our side sorted.  We expected all the German auto manufacturers will force their government to get a good deal - this has not materialised instead we have the like of Porsche which have said prices will rise 10% because of Brexit and customers will have to pay for it. 

Dont blame the EU for having a strong position.  

If Scotland had voted for its independence and this was a Scotland v England debate, I am sure England would be taking a hard line (just as EU is doing).  So lets stop blaming them for our failure
		
Click to expand...

Like most aspects of this issue, we have discussed this before. Hardly surprising over 16k+ posts.
The reason why these negotiations have taken so long and have not as yet been successful is mainly because neither side has negotiated in good faith. The UK has reluctantly negotiated for something the negotiators themselves donâ€™t want and the EU has negotiated first and foremost to protect its own project. The UK leaving is a massive threat to the EU project.
Now, some say that by taking a â€œhard lineâ€ that protects the project and in turn serves its people. The reality though is very different. The â€œhard lineâ€ is not actually a hard line at all. Itâ€™s really just them being obstructive. If we take just one example (and there are many) the EU has refused to discuss a trade deal in tandem with the Withdrawal Agreement and before the WA is signed. You may have a view on that, but I doubt you would have the same view if you were an EU citizen whose job depended on trade with the UK. We are not talking about a few jobs here. And in a union where youth unemployment alone is running at huge levels, itâ€™s not a gamble a responsible government should be taking. If we are honest, the EU doesnâ€™t need to take such a gamble. It should be welcoming a trade deal with the UK, just like it has done with Japan and Canada. So why wonâ€™t it even entertain the thought? Why wonâ€™t it put its people first? Because the project comes first. And if itâ€™s easy for the UK to leave, then that is certainly going to get the attention of a few other disgruntled nations.


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## Sweep (Feb 25, 2019)

It finally looks like the prospect of no deal is dawning. Just today we received notification from HMRC that no EC Sales Lists will be required after March in the event of no deal. In addition we have been notified that HMRC have put plans in place for a Transitional Simplified Procedure for importers from the EU to prevent ports being blocked.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OOOOO.... looks like a second referendum now thanks to Jeremy.
		
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Can anyone think of an occasion when Corbyn has actually stood up for the British? He calls for unlimited immigration, is known to have supported the IRA, supports Hamas, Hezbollah and other known Islamic terrorist groups, has denied laying a wreath on the graves of terrorists who attacked the Israeli team at the Munich Olympics, despite having been photographed doing so, he wants to hand the Falklands to Argentina and Gibraltar to Spain, and turn Britain into Venezuela. Seriously, has he actually done anything in support of Britain? Heâ€™s a modern day Quisling.


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's correct, they shoved it up his twaddle. ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

Prove it - or admit you post was...well...twaddle!


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2019)

Sweep said:



			It finally looks like the prospect of no deal is dawning. Just today we received notification from HMRC that no EC Sales Lists will be required after March in the event of no deal. In addition we have been notified that HMRC have put plans in place for a Transitional Simplified Procedure for importers from the EU to prevent ports being blocked.
		
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At least it shows that action IS being taken to mitigate consequences of 'No Deal'.

More paperwork and cost though!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Can anyone think of an occasion when Corbyn has actually stood up for the British? He calls for unlimited immigration, is known to have supported the IRA, supports Hamas, Hezbollah and other known Islamic terrorist groups, has denied laying a wreath on the graves of terrorists who attacked the Israeli team at the Munich Olympics, despite having been photographed doing so, he wants to hand the Falklands to Argentina and Gibraltar to Spain, and turn Britain into Venezuela. Seriously, has he actually done anything in support of Britain? Heâ€™s a modern day Quisling.
		
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Is his support for a possible 2nd Referendum not supporting the 48.1% of British People who voted Remain or those who donâ€™t agree with TMâ€™s plan?


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I love the blame culture here, itâ€™s everyone elseâ€™s fault, itâ€™s not going to plan, the EU are not rolling over , the remainers are sabotaging our great idea ....
		
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Having booked Mark Knopfler @ Albert Hall, this post reminded me of some words in this song!


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## Fade and Die (Feb 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is his support for a possible 2nd Referendum not supporting the 48.1% of British People who voted Remain or those who donâ€™t agree with TMâ€™s plan?
		
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So the Great Democrat Corbyn has at last decided that the democratic exercise of June 23rd 2016, with the largest turnout in British history, doesnâ€™t count after all. No , we have to do it again. What a barefaced hypocrite!!

I presume he will also be changing his sloganâ€¦â€¦. For the Few not the Many?


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So the Great Democrat Corbyn has at last decided that the democratic exercise of June 23rd 2016, with the largest turnout in British history, doesnâ€™t count after all. No , we have to do it again. What a barefaced hypocrite!!

I presume he will also be changing his sloganâ€¦â€¦. For the Few not the Many?
		
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Apart from 'barefaced', an apt description! 

But pretty much applicable to ANY pollitician! It's power/influence and the ability to exercise it that drives them. And that's actually even the 'good' ones!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So the Great Democrat Corbyn has at last decided that the democratic exercise of June 23rd 2016, with the largest turnout in British history, doesnâ€™t count after all. No , we have to do it again. What a barefaced hypocrite!!

I presume he will also be changing his sloganâ€¦â€¦. For the Few not the Many?
		
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What has he announced? The support for a 2nd Referendum is only going to happen if TM doesnâ€™t sort the mess out.
Tories called for the initial vote, Tories have been in power since, if it goes wrong, blame Corbyn.

Did you vote for a bad deal or no deal, because Iâ€™m sure it was only yes or no on the ballot paper.

All sides of the house defeated her deal, there isnâ€™t enough support for a No Deal, letâ€™s blame Corbyn.

Why arenâ€™t those(including me) who voted leave blaming the tories?

They have let us down, can you put your hand on your heart and say if Labour was in Government it would be the tories we blamed?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is his support for a possible 2nd Referendum not supporting the 48.1% of British People who voted Remain or those who donâ€™t agree with TMâ€™s plan?
		
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## Sweep (Feb 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			At least it shows that action IS being taken to mitigate consequences of 'No Deal'.

More paperwork and cost though!
		
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Or less paperwork if you count no EC Sales Lists after March


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:









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So time and time again MPâ€™s change their mind, lie, etc. 
If TM and the tory party had sorted a deal that suited them and the DUP, Corbyn is irrelevant.

Unless you wanted a no deal and nothing else from the start, are you seriously suggesting MPâ€™s on all sides should just accept the deal theyâ€™ve already rejected?

Once again itâ€™s easier to make Corbyn the bad guy than make the tories responsible for something THEY have had total control over since the beginning.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What has he announced? The support for a 2nd Referendum is only going to happen if TM doesnâ€™t sort the mess out.
Tories called for the initial vote, Tories have been in power since, if it goes wrong, blame Corbyn.

Did you vote for a bad deal or no deal, because Iâ€™m sure it was only yes or no on the ballot paper.

All sides of the house defeated her deal, there isnâ€™t enough support for a No Deal, letâ€™s blame Corbyn.

Why arenâ€™t those(including me) who voted leave blaming the tories?

They have let us down, can you put your hand on your heart and say if Labour was in Government it would be the tories we blamed?
		
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Donâ€™t get me wrong I think the Tories are an absolute disgrace in the way they have handled Brexit, but can you not see Corbyn for what he is? The man has voted against Europe on every occasion for the last 40 years! He is just desperate to get into power, I hope the millions of labour supporters who voted leave abandon him and his momentum bullyâ€™s.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Donâ€™t get me wrong I think the Tories are an absolute disgrace in the way they have handled Brexit, but can you not see Corbyn for what he is? The man has voted against Europe on every occasion for the last 40 years! He is just desperate to get into power, I hope the millions of labour supporters who voted leave abandon him and his momentum bullyâ€™s.
		
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But thatâ€™s a different argument for a different thread (General Election maybe) if we end up with a 2nd Referendum etc heâ€™ll get the blame, yet TM campaigned for Remain and somehow weâ€™re meant to trust her with leaving.
Like I said to SR, the tories have a majority and if they had their own house in order they could of easily made him irrelevant, instead they seem to rely on him doing it to himself and they reap the rewards, but failing at both.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So time and time again MPâ€™s change their mind, lie, etc.
If TM and the tory party had sorted a deal that suited them and the DUP, Corbyn is irrelevant.

Unless you wanted a no deal and nothing else from the start, are you seriously suggesting MPâ€™s on all sides should just accept the deal theyâ€™ve already rejected?

Once again itâ€™s easier to make Corbyn the bad guy than make the tories responsible for something THEY have had total control over since the beginning.
		
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"So you won't be calling for a second referendum"
Jeremy corbyn "No"

You appear so dyed in the wool Labour you wont accept any evidence against him.   I'm a Tory but I am disgusted with May's handling of the Brexit negotiations.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But thatâ€™s a different argument for a different thread (General Election maybe) if we end up with a 2nd Referendum etc heâ€™ll get the blame, yet *TM campaigned for Remain and somehow weâ€™re meant to trust her with leaving.*
Like I said to SR, the tories have a majority and if they had their own house in order they could of easily made him irrelevant, instead they seem to rely on him doing it to himself and they reap the rewards, but failing at both.
		
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I donâ€™t trust her at all, she has done everything to mess Brexit up, even calling (and nearly throwing) the general election, she had a decent majority and if she had just concentrated on Brexit she could have thrown the Irish under the bus and got on with a good deal. ðŸ˜


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			"So you won't be calling for a second referendum"
Jeremy corbyn "No"

You appear so dyed in the wool Labour you wont accept any evidence against him.   I'm a Tory but I am disgusted with May's handling of the Brexit negotiations.
		
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He has said he is â€œpreparedâ€ to back a 2nd Referendum to avoid a bad Brexit, what sort of leader would any opposition leader be (regardless of party) if they stood by and did nothing.

Me and Corbyn, donâ€™t like the man, wish he wasnâ€™t leader of the Labour Party, just fed up of time and time again people twisting words to suit their agenda.


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2019)

That interview of Tony Blair by Alistair Campbell - that is associated with the above link - is fantastic! 




Brexit is started at about 34min mark. The comments a few minutes earlier about Newspapers absolute coincide with mine - and what I've stated on this forum in the past.

My 'admiration' for Blair (minus a couple of serious blips!) has been quite significantly increased (though I still think of him as a politician, not a statesman!)! My detest of Campbell has been 'not-insignificantly' reduced!


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## Foxholer (Feb 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So time and time again MPâ€™s change their mind, lie, etc.
...
Once again itâ€™s easier to make Corbyn the bad guy than make the tories responsible for something THEY have had total control over since the beginning.
		
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That's politics!

Very often little to do with 'national interest' - whatever that might be!


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## Fade and Die (Feb 25, 2019)

How does â€œfairnessâ€ equate to continually asking the same question until you get the answer you want?That is not democracy. That is fascism through exhaustion.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			How does â€œfairnessâ€ equate to continually asking the same question until you get the answer you want?That is not democracy. That is fascism through exhaustion.
		
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I agree, but Iâ€™d question why we need to continually ask.


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## robinthehood (Feb 25, 2019)

A  chance to put right this sorry mess. Sounds good to me


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			A  chance to put right this sorry mess. Sounds good to me
		
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 Nurse, Robins out his chair again.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 25, 2019)

Is it not strange that when a leftie changes direction there is uproar,calling them hypocritical and inconsistent blah blah ... A Tory does it and itâ€™s considered to be a master stroke of genius. 
Itâ€™s like 2 sets of football supporters and no one is appreciating the football, meaning perhaps a change is good, perhaps there are concessions that errors have been made.
I am not saying it will fix it but letâ€™s just see if he is paying lip service to it or not. Like we are watching to see if TM is relaxing her demands to achieve a workable deal.

But letâ€™s get this straight, it was a Tory who called the referendum, no other party. If it goes well he will claim the plaudits, if it goes poorly it has nothing to do with any non-Tory except may be the DUP !


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## Fade and Die (Feb 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			A  chance to put right this sorry mess. Sounds good to me
		
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Whether Brexit is achieved is not politicians business. Or decision. That is our business. *HOW* Brexit is achieved is their task. That is why they get paid. To enable the wishes of the electorate. And for the minority who did not want it? Tough shit... I didnâ€™t want Blair. Or Brown. Or the seat belt law. Or a cap on the power of vacuum cleaner motors. I will no doubt also have to accept a sugar tax. Which I donâ€™t want. But I was outvoted, and in a democracy, my job as part of the process is to accept it and shut the f**k up until it is time to go to the polls again.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2019)

I am begining to believe Brexit will not happen and the Government have been scheming this since the referendum result.

Over my lifetime I have voted for all the main parties at sometime, Blair's government had my vote a few times although Brown finished that episode. I doubt very much if I will vote for any of these parties again, between them they have destroyed my faith in parliament as it stands.

I live in hope  that a new party will emerge that I can vote for but it would need to be completely  different to the existing ones.  Unfortunately there will be a great deal of people like me and British politics will never be the same.  My concern is that some defectors will move to very extreme parties but who could blame them after the depths of deceit that has become evident with the current incumbents.


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Nurse, Robins out his chair again.
		
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Seems like a 5 pint (+) post to me!


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## Sweep (Feb 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What has he announced? *The support for a 2nd Referendum is only going to happen if TM doesnâ€™t sort the mess out.*
Tories called for the initial vote, Tories have been in power since, if it goes wrong, blame Corbyn.

Did you vote for a bad deal or no deal, because Iâ€™m sure it was only yes or no on the ballot paper.

All sides of the house defeated her deal, there isnâ€™t enough support for a No Deal, letâ€™s blame Corbyn.

Why arenâ€™t those(including me) who voted leave blaming the tories?

They have let us down, can you put your hand on your heart and say if Labour was in Government it would be the tories we blamed?
		
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Not quite.
According to the Guardian, Labour are going to â€œback a second referendumâ€... â€œif the PM declines to adopt its Brexit stance.â€
Thatâ€™s not the same as â€œif TM doesnâ€™t sort the mess outâ€.
A subtle but significant difference.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Not quite.
According to the Guardian, Labour are going to â€œback a second referendumâ€... â€œif the PM declines to adopt its Brexit stance.â€
Thatâ€™s not the same as â€œif TM doesnâ€™t sort the mess outâ€.
A subtle but significant difference.
		
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So responsibility still with the tories then.


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## robinthehood (Feb 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Nurse, Robins out his chair again.
		
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Usual feeble insult I see. Ever going to reply with even a teeny bit of insight?


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## Hobbit (Feb 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So responsibility still with the tories then.

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It was a Tory manifesto pledge that saw the biggest engagement in politics by the electorate. A third of the Labour supporters voted Leave, and almost a third of LibDem voters voted Leave. It could be argued that a Tory govt proposed a cross-party policy but its now being fought on party lines and party politics.

Are Labour really thinking of the UK as a whole or doing whatever they can to disrupt things? They've had nearly 3 years to be bloody awkward and have chosen the 11th hour to finally decide which way they are flip-flopping. Yes, the Tories haven't engaged in a cross-party exercise to get Brexit over the line till they failed to garner support in Dec.

Personally, it should have been Leave 2 years ago and then negotiate the trade deal. The EU were never going to give much politically, and why should they. Mixing the political negotiation with trade was never going to go well.


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## Hobbit (Feb 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Usual feeble insult I see. Ever going to reply with even a teeny bit of insight?
		
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You could try posting something sensible in the conversation too. Your petty jibes are only ever going to get a similar response back.


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## robinthehood (Feb 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You could try posting something sensible in the conversation too. Your petty jibes are only ever going to get a similar response back.
		
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It was sensible,  I think it's a mess and would gladly take a 2nd referendum,  not sure what part is a petty jibe.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It was a Tory manifesto pledge that saw the biggest engagement in politics by the electorate. A third of the Labour supporters voted Leave, and almost a third of LibDem voters voted Leave. It could be argued that a Tory govt proposed a cross-party policy but its now being fought on party lines and party politics.

Are Labour really thinking of the UK as a whole or doing whatever they can to disrupt things? They've had nearly 3 years to be bloody awkward and have chosen the 11th hour to finally decide which way they are flip-flopping. Yes, the Tories haven't engaged in a cross-party exercise to get Brexit over the line till they failed to garner support in Dec.

Personally, it should have been Leave 2 years ago and then negotiate the trade deal. The EU were never going to give much politically, and why should they. Mixing the political negotiation with trade was never going to go well.
		
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Maybe people had faith that in 2 years any, any, government could sort this out.
I voted leave Bri, Iâ€™m as frustrated as this as the next man, but I keep going back to the point that the tories have a majority and donâ€™t need Labour support, so instead of getting on with it theyâ€™ve dragged their feet and looked to blame everybody else, EU, Labour, The Speaker, SNP etc, etc.
If they wanted cross party support that shouldâ€™ve of been done on day one.
Time TM took some responsibility on her own.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 26, 2019)

If ye wana blame some1 look back 2yrs to the start . See who told lies on both sides and hold them accountable 

I hope the ppl both sides that voted on what they were promised step up and say yes i was lied to . 

Both sides will spin the answers to suit whats happening now tho and politics continues .. same as always


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 26, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			If ye wana blame some1 look back 2yrs to the start . See who told lies on both sides and hold them accountable

I hope the ppl both sides that voted on what they were promised step up and say yes i was lied to .

Both sides will spin the answers to suit whats happening now tho and politics continues .. same as always
		
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We had a vote after the lies and the decision was to leave, this last minute â€œchaosâ€ should of been avoided by getting on with the job.
We have enough problems now without visiting what was said prior to the vote.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 26, 2019)

So those that lied on both sides are not or never to b answerable ? 

The chaos is caused by the lies r can u not see that ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 26, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			So those that lied on both sides are not or never to b answerable ?

The chaos is caused by the lies r can u not see that ?
		
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Yes, but now is not the time to go over old ground, enact the vote, then hold the enquiry.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Seems like a 5 pint (+) post to me! 

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5 pints, if only.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Usual feeble insult I see. Ever going to reply with even a teeny bit of insight?
		
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Not to your feeble soundbites.


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## robinthehood (Feb 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Not to your feeble soundbites.
		
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Come on , at least  try and be a teensy bit original.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Come on , at least  try and be a teensy bit original.
		
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Pot, kettle,black.


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## Sweep (Feb 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So responsibility still with the tories then.

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The responsibility is with the Tories because they are the government. However, Labour need to take responsibility for their own actions.
I was just pointing out (as you know) that the way you defended this Labour policy was incorrect. They are not only going to support a second referendum if the PM doesnâ€™t sort out Brexit. They are threatening to support a second referendum if the PM does not do brexit their way.


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## Sweep (Feb 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes, but now is not the time to go over old ground, enact the vote, then hold the enquiry.
		
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Enact the vote or hold a second referendum?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Enact the vote or hold a second referendum?
		
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Enact the vote! I do not want a 2nd Referendum.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			The responsibility is with the Tories because they are the government. However, Labour need to take responsibility for their own actions.
I was just pointing out (as you know) that the way you defended this Labour policy was incorrect. They are not only going to support a second referendum if the PM doesnâ€™t sort out Brexit. They are threatening to support a second referendum if the PM does not do brexit their way.
		
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If all the tories and the DUP agree to support a deal on Brexit, Labourâ€™s point of view is irrelevant, simple maths!


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## Crazyface (Feb 26, 2019)

I don't understand all this back stop thing. The big problem is that Ireland (N+S) can't even get together to have their own parliament and the whole thing is screwing up the Brexit process. We should be off loading this problem to the Irish Parliament and let them come up with a solution. Hellfire the North voted to Remain didn't they? It could have been the catayst to unite the whole country!


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## User62651 (Feb 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I don't understand all this back stop thing. *The big problem is that Ireland (N+S) can't even get together to have their own parliament *and the whole thing is screwing up the Brexit process. We should be off loading this problem to the Irish Parliament and let them come up with a solution. Hellfire the North voted to Remain didn't they? *It could have been the catayst to unite the whole country!*

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Not sure if this is a piss take or not but anyway -

They're British in Northern Ireland, not Irish, by majority they dont want a united Ireland, they want to stay British.
Seems you'd ditch these British people just to get out of EU?
We put British people into Northern Ireland as a colonisation tactic centuries ago.

Also it was the British that drew the border when Ireland(republic) won it's independence from Britain, we could have given it all up but didn't.

Has been a political hot potato for decades. 1000s of people have died, both British and Irish.

Brexit has nothing to do with the political situation over there.
Simply Northern Irish people preferred to be in the EU and perhaps they knew better what issues were likely to arise from a leave vote, wise folks over there.


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## Scoobiesnax (Feb 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I don't understand all this back stop thing. The big problem is that Ireland (N+S) can't even get together to have their own parliament and the whole thing is screwing up the Brexit process. We should be off loading this problem to the Irish Parliament and let them come up with a solution. Hellfire the North voted to Remain didn't they? It could have been the catayst to unite the whole country!
		
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SO we won't have the Republican scum causing trouble if we leave without a deal as it is against the GFA but we'll just have the Loyalist nutters causing mayhem because we sold the unionist/loyalists down the swanny


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## Scoobiesnax (Feb 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Not sure if this is a piss take or not but anyway -

They're British in Northern Ireland, not Irish, by majority they dont want a united Ireland, they want to stay British.
Seems you'd ditch these British people just to get out of EU?
We put British people into Northern Ireland as a colonisation tactic centuries ago.

Also it was the British that drew the border when Ireland(republic) won it's independence from Britain, we could have given it all up but didn't.

Has been a political hot potato for decades. 1000s of people have died, both British and Irish.

Brexit has nothing to do with the political situation over there.
*Simply Northern Irish people preferred to be in the EU and perhaps they knew better what issues were likely to arise from a leave vote, wise folks over there*.

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Not in the 20 years I was born & lived there as a boy/young man!


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## Sweep (Feb 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If all the tories and the DUP agree to support a deal on Brexit, Labourâ€™s point of view is irrelevant, simple maths!
		
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Indeed. But that doesnâ€™t excuse Labourâ€™s threat to support a second referendum if the PM doesnâ€™t adopt Labourâ€™s plan. As you donâ€™t want a second referendum I would have thought you would agree on that.
As I said, Labour has to take responsibility for itâ€™s own actions.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Indeed. But that doesnâ€™t excuse Labourâ€™s threat to support a second referendum if the PM doesnâ€™t adopt Labourâ€™s plan. As you donâ€™t want a second referendum I would have thought you would agree on that.
As I said, Labour has to take responsibility for itâ€™s own actions.
		
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TM has had 2 years, she lost a vote in Jan, if now she comes back with no changes are you saying we should accept a bad deal?
But still you wish to blame Labour!


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## drdel (Feb 26, 2019)

Blaming May and personalising the issue is missing the ball in play.

Its worth remembering  the UK has tried to refine the EU for decades and been blocked by the centralists (who simply want to have total budget control by Brussels) and those who have their hands in the cookie jar and simply want the UK's cash.

Cameron tried to object to Juncker a lifetime centralist ! and put a long standing issue/question to* Parliament* who voted the matter should be put to the public.

*All* parties agreed to support the result.

Not surprisingly Juncker has hardened his centralist vision and since he's on the way out has nowt to loose.

Both main parties in UK are split and May has the task of negotiating with EU that is only concerned with itself and selling a deal to a mainly two party Parliament whose members are split but not along party lines. Corbyn is just a chancer who doesn't care about anything (including Labour supporters) other than being the Labour Party leader and will agree with anything depending on his audience.

T'was always going to be a mess; if you read the predictions by ex-Finance minister for Greece (Varoufakis) he's spot on in his portrayal of the EU's negotiating stance and its duplicity. The Parliamentary 'mess' in the UK is merely aiding the EU's duplicity and their disregard for the well being of the citizens of the member states.

If the UK stays in the EU then in the next 10 years you can look forward to the UK being treated as a cash cow. See us adopting the Euro, ECB control of the BoE and our budget, significantly rising contributions, ECJ primacy, increasing unemployment, transfer of Oil rights, grants given to allow other states to uncut UK businesses (e.g. Ireland, Poland and the east bloc etc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-47373996?__twitter_impression=true

So a game changer - allow the MPâ€™s to vote to rule out a No Deal and also being able to  delay leaving. Maybe some common sense at least and time for them to get this sorted.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I don't understand all this back stop thing. The big problem is that Ireland (N+S) can't even get together to have their own parliament and the whole thing is screwing up the Brexit process. We should be off loading this problem to the Irish Parliament and let them come up with a solution. Hellfire the North voted to Remain didn't they? It could have been the catayst to unite the whole country!
		
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Oh dear oh dear .. i genuinely do not know what to say to that except i do hope ur just on a wind up for d craic


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 26, 2019)

drdel said:



			Blaming May and personalising the issue is missing the ball in play.

Its worth remembering  the UK has tried to refine the EU for decades and been blocked by the centralists (who simply want to have total budget control by Brussels) and those who have their hands in the cookie jar and simply want the UK's cash.

Cameron tried to object to Juncker a lifetime centralist ! and put a long standing issue/question to* Parliament* who voted the matter should be put to the public.

*All* parties agreed to support the result.

Not surprisingly Juncker has hardened his centralist vision and since he's on the way out has nowt to loose.

Both main parties in UK are split and May has the task of negotiating with EU that is only concerned with itself and selling a deal to a mainly two party Parliament whose members are split but not along party lines. Corbyn is just a chancer who doesn't care about anything (including Labour supporters) other than being the Labour Party leader and will agree with anything depending on his audience.

T'was always going to be a mess; if you read the predictions by ex-Finance minister for Greece (Varafoukakis) he's spot on in his portrayal of the EU's negotiating stance and its duplicity. The Parliamentary 'mess' in the UK is merely aiding the EU's duplicity and their disregard for the well being of the citizens of the member states.

If the UK stays in the EU then in the next 10 years you can look forward to the UK being treated as a cash cow. See us adopting the Euro, ECB control of the BoE and our budget, significantly rising contributions, ECJ primacy, increasing unemployment, transfer of Oil rights, grants to allow other states to uncut UK businesses (e.g. Ireland, Poland and the east bloc etc.
		
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You can see all this, and yet weâ€™ve allowed ourselves to get into this mess.

Surely itâ€™s TM whoâ€™s dropped the ball.


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## Mudball (Feb 26, 2019)

This may be an old chestnut.. 

So are the Leavers still blaming Gina Miller for the giving Parliament the right to decide rather than TMay and her hardliners.  If it wasnt for her, we would have exited by now..


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## ger147 (Feb 26, 2019)

So we're still no further forward and will need to wait another 2 weeks to see if TM can come up with any concessions from the EU re. the backstop.

Groundhog day...


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2019)

drdel said:



			Blaming May and personalising the issue is missing the ball in play.

Its worth remembering  the UK has tried to refine the EU for decades and been blocked by the centralists (who simply want to have total budget control by Brussels) and those who have their hands in the cookie jar and simply want the UK's cash.

Cameron tried to object to Juncker a lifetime centralist ! and put a long standing issue/question to* Parliament* who voted the matter should be put to the public.

*All* parties agreed to support the result.

Not surprisingly Juncker has hardened his centralist vision and since he's on the way out has nowt to loose.

Both main parties in UK are split and May has the task of negotiating with EU that is only concerned with itself and selling a deal to a mainly two party Parliament whose members are split but not along party lines. Corbyn is just a chancer who doesn't care about anything (including Labour supporters) other than being the Labour Party leader and will agree with anything depending on his audience.

T'was always going to be a mess; if you read the predictions by ex-Finance minister for Greece (Varafoukakis) he's spot on in his portrayal of the EU's negotiating stance and its duplicity. The Parliamentary 'mess' in the UK is merely aiding the EU's duplicity and their disregard for the well being of the citizens of the member states.

If the UK stays in the EU then in the next 10 years you can look forward to the UK being treated as a cash cow. See us adopting the Euro, ECB control of the BoE and our budget, significantly rising contributions, ECJ primacy, increasing unemployment, transfer of Oil rights, grants given to allow other states to uncut UK businesses (e.g. Ireland, Poland and the east bloc etc.
		
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I'd 'Like' this post except for the last paragraph. I don't believe most of those 'disadvantages' (except ECJ Primacy, which is no big deal imo) would happen - at least not deliberately/specifically 'against UK' any more than if/when UK leaves! The UK's 'cash cow' state already exists and is one of the obvious arguments to leave! Without UK's contribution, France and Germany will be left as the primary funders for the 'equalisation' of the rest of the EU (and its bureaucracy)! That's likely to be a considerable burden, even for those economies, but not UK's problem! If anything, it might cause a fundamental re-assessment of the aims of the EU - to such an extent that UK might like to rejoin!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 26, 2019)

Ian Blackford advising the PM to make sure she has candidates ready for the European Parliament elections.


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## drdel (Feb 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'd 'Like' this post except for the last paragraph. I don't believe most of those 'disadvantages' (except ECJ Primacy, which is no big deal imo) would happen - at least not deliberately/specifically 'against UK' any more than if/when UK leaves! The UK's 'cash cow' state already exists and is one of the obvious arguments to leave! Without UK's contribution, France and Germany will be left as the primary funders for the 'equalisation' of the rest of the EU (and its bureaucracy)! That's likely to be a considerable burden, even for those economies, but not UK's problem! If anything, it might cause a fundamental re-assessment of the aims of the EU - to such an extent that UK might like to rejoin!
		
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I wouldn't take too much of an issue with you on this. My views (which is all they are) in the last paragraph are because I think there's a real chance (unless Italy mobilises the 'popular' vote) that Selmyar and others of his thinking will be emboldened. There's a significant chance they'd exploit the immediate 'honeymoon period', after surviving Brexit and the MEP elections, as an opportunity to push for the extremes of alignment across all members and the UK in particular because of the knowledge that the UK will be marginalised by the '27' and there'd be no appetite in the UK for a hard line of the same kind that Thatcher once took and raising the thorny internal debate again..


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## Slime (Feb 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Not sure if this is a piss take or not but anyway -

*They're British in Northern Ireland*, not Irish, by majority they dont want a united Ireland, *they want to stay British*.
*Seems you'd ditch these British people* just to get out of EU?
We put British people into Northern Ireland as a colonisation tactic centuries ago.

Also it was the British that drew the border when *Ireland(republic) won it's independence from Britain*, we could have given it all up but didn't.

Has been a political hot potato for decades. 1000s of people have died, both British and Irish.

Brexit has nothing to do with the political situation over there.
Simply Northern Irish people preferred to be in the EU and perhaps they knew better what issues were likely to arise from a leave vote, wise folks over there.

Click to expand...

*No, they are not.
They are not British.
They are not British people.*
*Ireland, (Republic), has never been part of Britain.*

I don't mean to be pedantic, but please get the basic facts correct.


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## Old Skier (Feb 26, 2019)

So, no deal off the table, fantastic negotiating skills. Or as all sides in Parliament have to agree "A" deal the majority vote has been kicked into touch and the minority win. Not a chance that any particular group will have a majority on any deal.  Next step, the EU demand we join the Euro and we will have no option than to go down on one knee and accept. Interesting take on democracy Parliament has.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So responsibility still with the tories then.

Click to expand...

Lets go to basics.

Cameron, one of the true villains in all of this, was elected on a clear, unequivocal mandate that his party would conduct a referendum with the simple question of remaining within the EU or leaving it.

People chose to elect him on that basis. It was not hidden. He didn't make it up one morning in the shower.

It had previously been promised by Blair, who chose not to deliver what he promised, and chose instead to spend his time, like a true Socialist, (and like Kinnock before him) lining his and his wife's pockets the snake.

Cameron at least delivered on his promise.

Unfortunately he did it after 10 years of being in office, and doing nothing to address the concerns of those who hated the EU.

Instead of spending ten years asking voters what it was about the EU they disliked, and attempting to address those concerns, change how the EU works, refine it, he chose instead to do bugger all. Until the very last moment, when he panicked and started spreading profoundly idiotic stories about the lack of curry chefs in the event of leaving the EU. What a prize ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬

But You shouldnâ€™t  blame him for the "lies". Nor blame Boris, or Farage. Any more than the deaf, dumb and blind kid, Corbyn.

Because it is not their responsibility to educate us.

It is our responsibility, as voters, to educate ourselves on the issues and vote accordingly.

How much we do that is not the fault of politicians. It is the fault of society as a whole. 

We all have, at our fingertips, the means to find out pretty much anything about anything, and view it from every perspective imaginable, so ignorance is not an acceptable argument. But blame the Tories you must but maybe take your red specs off and see that this is a bigger issue than party politics.


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## Sweep (Feb 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			TM has had 2 years, she lost a vote in Jan, if now she comes back with no changes are you saying we should accept a bad deal?
But still you wish to blame Labour!
		
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I am not blaming Labour for the past two years. I am really not sure where you got that from.
I firstly challenged your incorrect outlining of Labourâ€™s threat to support a second referendum which put Labour in a very much better light than they deserve.
I secondly said that Labour must take responsibility for its own actions.
Seemingly you disagree even though you claim you donâ€™t want a second referendum.
As to your question, no, I donâ€™t think we should accept a bad deal. I quite like the â€œno deal is better than a bad dealâ€ option.
I definitely donâ€™t think a second referendum is a remotely good idea and I donâ€™t believe those who do fully appreciate how damaging it will be to politics in this country and our democratic process. If they did they would want no part in it. It is irresponsible for Labour to support it, no matter what the alternatives are.


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## Sweep (Feb 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ian Blackford advising the PM to make sure she has candidates ready for the European Parliament elections. 

Click to expand...

News flash: outside Scotland no-one cares what Ian Blackford says.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			News flash: outside Scotland no-one cares what Ian Blackford says.
		
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Inside Scotland many dont care what he says.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Lets go to basics.

Cameron, one of the true villains in all of this, was elected on a clear, unequivocal mandate that his party would conduct a referendum with the simple question of remaining within the EU or leaving it.

People chose to elect him on that basis. It was not hidden. He didn't make it up one morning in the shower.

It had previously been promised by Blair, who chose not to deliver what he promised, and chose instead to spend his time, like a true Socialist, (and like Kinnock before him) lining his and his wife's pockets the snake.

Cameron at least delivered on his promise.

Unfortunately he did it after 10 years of being in office, and doing nothing to address the concerns of those who hated the EU.

Instead of spending ten years asking voters what it was about the EU they disliked, and attempting to address those concerns, change how the EU works, refine it, he chose instead to do bugger all. Until the very last moment, when he panicked and started spreading profoundly idiotic stories about the lack of curry chefs in the event of leaving the EU. What a prize ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬

But You shouldnâ€™t  blame him for the "lies". Nor blame Boris, or Farage. Any more than the deaf, dumb and blind kid, Corbyn.

Because it is not their responsibility to educate us.

It is our responsibility, as voters, to educate ourselves on the issues and vote accordingly.

How much we do that is not the fault of politicians. It is the fault of society as a whole.

We all have, at our fingertips, the means to find out pretty much anything about anything, and view it from every perspective imaginable, so ignorance is not an acceptable argument. But blame the Tories you must but maybe take your red specs off and see that this is a bigger issue than party politics.
		
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I did educate myself thank you, I voted to leave.
I expected once the result was announced for the work to start, whether you like it or not, the ones in control after the votes were counted was the tory party, why did it take her to loosing the vote a few weeks back to start discussing â€œmattersâ€ with other parties, how has she managed to cause so much upset in her own party?

As a leaver I feel let down by the Government, not Labour or SNP or Plaid Cymru or the Liberals.

Some people just want to blame everyone else instead of those in charge.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 26, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I am not blaming Labour for the past two years. I am really not sure where you got that from.
I firstly challenged your incorrect outlining of Labourâ€™s threat to support a second referendum which put Labour in a very much better light than they deserve.
I secondly said that Labour must take responsibility for its own actions.
Seemingly you disagree even though you claim you donâ€™t want a second referendum.
As to your question, no, I donâ€™t think we should accept a bad deal. I quite like the â€œno deal is better than a bad dealâ€ option.
I definitely donâ€™t think a second referendum is a remotely good idea and I donâ€™t believe those who do fully appreciate how damaging it will be to politics in this country and our democratic process. If they did they would want no part in it. It is irresponsible for Labour to support it, no matter what the alternatives are.
		
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But yet no criticism of the tory MPâ€™s who support a 2nd Referendum or the Liberals etc, the fuss is about Labour and thatâ€™s because she doesnâ€™t have some of her own MPâ€™s backing her and if they vote with Labour sheâ€™ll lose.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I did educate myself thank you, I voted to leave.
I expected once the result was announced for the work to start, whether you like it or not, the ones in control after the votes were counted was the tory party, why did it take her to loosing the vote a few weeks back to start discussing â€œmattersâ€ with other parties, how has she managed to cause so much upset in her own party?

As a leaver I feel let down by the Government, not Labour or SNP or Plaid Cymru or the Liberals.

Some people just want to blame everyone else instead of those in charge.
		
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Yes it is hard to defend May.....
To my discredit, I actually thought she was a good idea at the time. Discounting the useless Leadsom, once Gove had shafted Johnson and with nobody else willing to put their head above the parapet, maybe, I thought, a â€˜softâ€™ remainer, determined to respect the referendum result, would bring the Tories together and carry the honourable Labour politicians along with her.

What a gullible fool I turned out to be.

I do, however, still believe her original intention was to respect the referendum. Sheâ€™s more weak than devious and never had the personal strength to stand up to the likes of Olly Robbins. Once she had shot herself in the foot with her disastrous 2017 election campaign, the remain supporting civil service knew they could, via Chequers and the deeply unfavourable Withdrawal Agreement, run her towards a BRINO or staying in by extending A50 (once itâ€™s done once, why not keep doing it until it becomes another permanent temporary solution, like income tax and the national speed limit?).


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## User62651 (Feb 26, 2019)

Slime said:



*No, they are not.
They are not British.
They are not British people.*
*Ireland, (Republic), has never been part of Britain.*

I don't mean to be pedantic, but please get the basic facts correct.  

Click to expand...

They have British passports which makes them politically British. 
The island of Ireland is part of the geographic British Isles also.

Perhaps you should also check alleged facts?


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## IanM (Feb 27, 2019)

So Ref 2 is coming.  Carefully orchestrated from day 1. 

Rigged question.  Remain v Bad deal no one likes. 

I believe I've been telling you this since the day after the 1st Referendum.   

No vote against the EU has ever stood.   And you've been talking about trade!


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			News flash: outside Scotland no-one cares what Ian Blackford says.
		
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Thank you for clarifying why many Scots want to stay in the EU and Leave the UK.


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## Dando (Feb 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you for clarifying why many Scots want to stay in the EU and Leave the UK.

Click to expand...

I doubt there will be many English tears if you do leave the UK


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you for clarifying why many Scots want to stay in the EU and Leave the UK.

Click to expand...

I must confess that I do not understand why "many Scots" dislike the English ! It seems to me to be like a stupid stereotype joke that has developed into a convenient 'chip-on-the-shoulder' belief.  Is it not time to grow up and look at the world beyond together with the UK  (in or out of the EU) and honestly appraise how a few million Scots would actually function internationally?

What specific negatives have the English caused you in the last 100 years or so?

Most of Scotland's problems appear to me to be self inflicted.


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## Old Skier (Feb 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			I must confess that I do not understand why "many Scots" dislike the English ! It seems to me to be like a stupid stereotype joke that has developed into a convenient 'chip-on-the-shoulder' belief.  Is it not time to grow up and look at the world beyond together with the UK  (in or out of the EU) and honestly appraise how a few million Scots would actually function internationally?

What specific negatives have the English caused you in the last 100 years or so?

Most of Scotland's problems appear to me to be self inflicted.
		
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I think you'll find it's the noisey miniority which is why they lost the referendum.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 27, 2019)

Well done you, three totally wrong 'broken record' arrogant responses in five lines of script.

Scotland's main problem ATM is a Brexit which 62% of our nation do not want but we have to suffer it being inflicted upon us by a UK Westminster government.

Do you seriously think that Scotland will not be unable to actually survive and flourish outside of The UK.

PS.... Change 'Scots to English' and 'English to EU' In your first paragraph and have a wee smile.


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## GreiginFife (Feb 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Inside Scotland many dont care what he says.
		
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Amen to that. Guy's an absolute bawbag.


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...
Do you seriously think that Scotland will not be unable to actually survive and flourish outside of The UK.
...
		
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With 'logic' like that, they'll be so confused, they'll either do nothing (aka what happened last time) or, again a pretty common state, collapse from infighting and apathy!


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## Slime (Feb 27, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			They have British passports which makes them politically British.
The island of Ireland is part of the geographic *British Isles* also.

Perhaps you should also check alleged facts?

Click to expand...

FYI : *Britain* is the island consisting of England, Scotland, and Wales.

Not once did you mention The British Isles or the 'politically British', just saying!


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2019)

Slime said:



			FYI : *Britain* is the island consisting of England, Scotland, and Wales.

Not once did you mention The British Isles or the 'politically British', just saying!
		
Click to expand...

Boys, boys! Stop arguing over semantics.

The area governed by Westminster is called the *United* Kingdom. That's certainly a bad title currently!


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## Sweep (Feb 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I did educate myself thank you, I voted to leave.
I expected once the result was announced for the work to start, whether you like it or not, the ones in control after the votes were counted was the tory party, why did it take her to loosing the vote a few weeks back to start discussing â€œmattersâ€ with other parties, how has she managed to cause so much upset in her own party?

As a leaver I feel let down by the Government, not Labour or SNP or Plaid Cymru or the Liberals.

Some people just want to blame everyone else instead of those in charge.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with all of this. I would add though that I also feel let down by the EU. We should have been treated better. I donâ€™t expect us to have our cake and eat it and I donâ€™t expect any give aways. But I do think everyone, including the people of other EU nations, have a right to expect proper and sincere negotiation from both sides.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I agree with all of this. I would add though that I also feel let down by the EU. We should have been treated better. I donâ€™t expect us to have our cake and eat it and I donâ€™t expect any give aways. But I do think everyone, including the people of other EU nations, have a right to expect proper and sincere negotiation from both sides.
		
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Iâ€™ve got no issue with the EU, why? No time for them because of their behaviour over the last 15-20 years and the direction weâ€™ve been getting pulled in and how weâ€™ve been treated.
I expected nothing less from them, I just thought this time and us leaving we would of had (or tried to gain) the upper hand.


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## Sweep (Feb 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But yet no criticism of the tory MPâ€™s who support a 2nd Referendum or the Liberals etc, the fuss is about Labour and thatâ€™s because she doesnâ€™t have some of her own MPâ€™s backing her and if they vote with Labour sheâ€™ll lose.
		
Click to expand...

If you look back on the pages of this thread and the previous one you will see that I have been pretty scathing about Tory MPâ€™s who support a second referendum. The liberals and SNP less so, because at least they are sticking to their position as set out in their manifesto. 
Nevertheless, I believe any MP who calls for a second referendum is guilty of embracing democracy when it gets them elected and then being happy to dump it when it delivers something they donâ€™t like. It is an utterly appalling position for an elected representative to take and places us on the precipice of a calamity which will be hard if not impossible to come back from.
The current fuss is about Labour because at this late hour they have changed their position radically and have threatened to embrace this anti-democratic stance, thereby deserting millions of their own supporters in their heartlands. Including you it seems. It is utterly disgraceful.


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## Sweep (Feb 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you for clarifying why many Scots want to stay in the EU and Leave the UK.

Click to expand...

Maybe we should clarify that many does not mean majority.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			If you look back on the pages of this thread and the previous one you will see that I have been pretty scathing about Tory MPâ€™s who support a second referendum. The liberals and SNP less so, because at least they are sticking to their position as set out in their manifesto.
Nevertheless, I believe any MP who calls for a second referendum is guilty of embracing democracy when it gets them elected and then being happy to dump it when it delivers something they donâ€™t like. It is an utterly appalling position for an elected representative to take and places us on the precipice of a calamity which will be hard if not impossible to come back from.
The current fuss is about Labour because at this late hour they have changed their position radically and have threatened to embrace this anti-democratic stance, thereby deserting millions of their own supporters in their heartlands. Including you it seems. It is utterly disgraceful.
		
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I am pissed off if they support one, Iâ€™ve said I donâ€™t like Corbyn, but I see the whole thing differently, if it was roles reversed and Labour was in charge and the tories changed their stance rather than voting for something they didnâ€™t support, then I would say thatâ€™s the luxury of being in opposition, less responsibility.


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## Sweep (Feb 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve got no issue with the EU, why? No time for them because of their behaviour over the last 15-20 years and the direction weâ€™ve been getting pulled in and how weâ€™ve been treated.
I expected nothing less from them, I just thought this time and us leaving we would of had (or tried to gain) the upper hand.
		
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Like you I didnâ€™t _expect_ any different, but as I said we _should_ have been treated better.


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## Sweep (Feb 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I am pissed off if they support one, Iâ€™ve said I donâ€™t like Corbyn, but I see the whole thing differently, if it was roles reversed and Labour was in charge and the tories changed their stance rather than voting for something they didnâ€™t support, then I would say thatâ€™s the luxury of being in opposition, less responsibility.
		
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I would agree if we were talking about the Lib Demâ€™s or SNP etc who have no chance of governing. But this is the Opposition against a minority government on the biggest political event since WW2. There is no luxury of Opposition here. This is no time for party politics from any side. This is a time for responsible actions.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I would agree if we were talking about the Lib Demâ€™s or SNP etc who have no chance of governing. But this is the Opposition against a minority government on the biggest political event since WW2. There is no luxury of Opposition here. This is no time for party politics from any side. This is a time for responsible actions.
		
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And in their opinion and mine, it would be wrong to agree to a bad deal, the power/control to avoid the 2nd referendum still lies with TM.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 27, 2019)

More
@*EmmanuelMacron* says that "We would support an extension request only if it was justified by a new choice of the British...but we would in no way accept an extension without a clear objective."


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 27, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			More
@*EmmanuelMacron* says that "We would support an extension request only if it was justified by a new choice of the British...but we would in no way accept an extension without a clear objective."
		
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That's a pretty fair comment. Why keep kicking the can down the road? At some point you have to say enough is enough, both sides.


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2019)

Sweep said:



			... I would add though that I also feel let down by the EU. We should have been treated better...
		
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Why would you have any right to feel that? UK chose to leave the EU, not the other way around! They (the EU negotiators) are (supposedly) acting in the best interests of the members that remain!


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Why would you have any right to feel that? UK chose to leave the EU, not the other way around! They (the EU negotiators) are (supposedly) acting in the best interests of the members that remain!
		
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Are they though? The UK chose to leave the EU because people did not like the route it was taking. They could have softened slightly, perhaps a two track EU, but they sent Cameron away with nothing. This could have been avoided if the EU had genuinely believed we may leave and offered a little something. Now that we are in this situation do you genuinely think they are working in the best interets of the people and businesses of the remaining 27 or in their own best interests? I think they are working for the latter, they are in their bubble and they do not see the wider picture on the ground.

I don't expect them to hand over the EU jewels to a country leaving but they could have carried this out in a way that was less confrontational and more likely to succeed for all parties.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 27, 2019)

Choice by speaker of SNP amendment, ruling out no-deal Brexit ever and not just on 29 March, is important. It ought to be supported by all opposition parties, including Labour, and many Tory MPs, given their public statements. Letâ€™s see 
And if it passes by a serious margin, it signals that the vote on @*theresa_may*â€™s deal on or before 12 March will in effect be a choice between her deal, a future version of her deal, some other possible deal and a referendum.


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are they though? The UK chose to leave the EU because people did not like the route it was taking. They could have softened slightly, perhaps a two track EU, but they sent Cameron away with nothing. This could have been avoided if the EU had genuinely believed we may leave and offered a little something. Now that we are in this situation do you genuinely think they are working in the best interets of the people and businesses of the remaining 27 or in their own best interests? I think they are working for the latter, they are in their bubble and they do not see the wider picture on the ground.

I don't expect them to hand over the EU jewels to a country leaving but they could have carried this out in a way that was less confrontational and more likely to succeed for all parties.
		
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Did you notice the word 'supposedly' in my post?!

Given UK's decision to leave, it's up to the 'remaining 27', not the UK, to control their negotiators! They may, or may not, be influenced by other issues (like making it difficult for other mmbers to leave and perceived future structure of the group) but that's virtually irrelevant to actual negotiations!


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Did you notice the word 'supposedly' in my post?!

Given UK's decision to leave, it's up to the 'remaining 27', not the UK, to control their negotiators! They may, or may not, be influenced by other issues (like making it difficult for other mmbers to leave and perceived future structure of the group) but that's virtually irrelevant to actual negotiations!
		
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I did, absolutely . It's up to all parties to control their negotiators but I don't know that either have done that well. TM has let her advisor have too much control, the 27 have let the bureaucrats run with it for too long. Add into that some ridiculous posturing from all sides and you have the mess we are left with. It's a shame it could not start again and we could let some grown ups do the talking.


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			...It's a shame it could not start again and we could let some grown ups do the talking.
		
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Might still happen, though i'm not hopeful!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Why would you have any right to feel that? UK chose to leave the EU, not the other way around! They (the EU negotiators) are (supposedly) acting in the best interests of the members that remain!
		
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I don't believe they are doing that. The EU negotiators are protecting an ideology that isn't in the best interest of the member states. IMO of course.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I did, absolutely . It's up to all parties to control their negotiators but I don't know that either have done that well. TM has let her advisor have too much control, the 27 have let the bureaucrats run with it for too long. Add into that some ridiculous posturing from all sides and you have the mess we are left with. It's a shame it could not start again and we could let some grown ups do the talking.
		
Click to expand...

Also the way our politicians have frustrated the hands of our negotiators by working to remove their only bargaining card in an attempt to force a remain endgame.


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Why would you have any right to feel that? UK chose to leave the EU, not the other way around! They (the EU negotiators) are (supposedly) acting in the best interests of the members that remain!
		
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I agree but the issue is that many of the 27 are simply ignored. France and Germany have largely (IMO) played politics I suspect largely because of having to pick up the shortfall in Brussels with its expansionist strategy and for defence outside of NATO - if the UK departs.


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well done you, three totally wrong 'broken record' arrogant responses in five lines of script.

Scotland's main problem ATM is a Brexit which 62% of our nation do not want but we have to suffer it being inflicted upon us by a UK Westminster government.

Do you seriously think that Scotland will not be unable to actually survive and flourish outside of The UK.

PS.... Change 'Scots to English' and 'English to EU' In your first paragraph and have a wee smile.[/QUOT

It was 'plain speaking' and not meant to be arrogant, sorry.

I would genuinely appreciate an insight into the harm membership of the UK has caused Scotland in the last 10, 50, 100years.

I'd also appreciate how you believe Scotland in the EU at about 20th position with Hungary (based on population) would get as much say as it does in its negotiation with Westminster.
		
Click to expand...


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## Slime (Feb 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Boys, boys!* Stop arguing over semantics.*

The area governed by Westminster is called the *United* Kingdom. *That's certainly a bad title currently!*

Click to expand...

No problem. 

I couldn't agree more .................... sadly.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 27, 2019)

Apology accepted thank you.

Scotland has an economy that is very different to England and will be hit very hard by Brexit. Especially agriculture and fisheries.

Read up on the McCrone report for surprising information. With held for over 40 years by Westminster as they were so afraid of it's impact on the Scots.
Scotland relates more to Norway than England read up about the different way that Norway have handled their finances, as an independent country of 'a few millions', they seem to be doing very nicely.
 Bear in mind Scotland who  the last 300 years have had their finances and investment controlled by Westminster. Over the last 60 years Scots, pro rata, have paid a higher income into the UK pot than the other three regions.
Look at an independent Scotland compared to other small European Countries. You gave probably the worst example in Hungary, you could have said Denmark, Norway, Ireland instead.

Please do not judge Scotland from the pages of the Unionist controlled newspapers and BBC. look a bit deeper and surprise yourself.


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## Old Skier (Feb 27, 2019)

Land of milk and honey yet you seemed have spent most of your working life south of the boarder.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Look at an independent Scotland compared to other small European Countries. You gave probably the worst example in Hungary, you could have said Denmark, Norway, Ireland instead.
		
Click to expand...

So your evidence for how well Scotland could do as an independent country in the EU uses as an example a country (Norway) that isn't actually in the EU, two of (Norway and Denmark) the highest taxed and most expensive countries in Europe and a country (Ireland) that has received hundreds of millions in EU funding and has only recently become a net contributor. I assume that you'll be happy paying Â£10 for a pint of beer in an independent Scotland and having the EU tell you how to run your country.


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Apology accepted thank you.

Scotland has an economy that is very different to England and will be hit very hard by Brexit. Especially agriculture and fisheries.

Read up on the McCrone report for surprising information. With held for over 40 years by Westminster as they were so afraid of it's impact on the Scots.
Scotland relates more to Norway than England read up about the different way that Norway have handled their finances, as an independent country of 'a few millions', they seem to be doing very nicely.
Bear in mind Scotland who  the last 300 years have had their finances and investment controlled by Westminster. Over the last 60 years Scots, pro rata, have paid a higglish companies laher income into the UK pot than the other three regions.
Look at an independent Scotland compared to other small European Countries. You gave probably the worst example in Hungary, you could have said Denmark, Norway, Ireland instead.

*Please do not judge Scotland from the pages of the Unionist controlled newspapers and BBC. look a bit deeper and surprise yourself.*

Click to expand...

I am well aware of most of your history lessons (Scottish ancestors!): professionally I've assisted many Scottish organisations and Universities as well as English companies locating to Scotland. 

I did not select 'Hungary' it was at that point in the population ranking.  I do not share your view that Scotland would prosper independent of the UK because the full cost for Defence, Transport infrastructure, etc . etc would be prohibitive. 

My questions did not originate from a media that you, unnecessarily label Unionist. 

I asked a civil question: why did you need to go OTT with this last para? its exactly the reaction that seems to prevent a rational dialogue.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 27, 2019)

drdel said:



*I agree but the issue is that many of the 27 are simply ignored*. France and Germany have largely (IMO) played politics I suspect largely because of having to pick up the shortfall in Brussels with its expansionist strategy and for defence outside of NATO - if the UK departs.
		
Click to expand...

Your, and your fellow leavers concerns for many of the members of the EU is touching. How about we stay and up our contributions as that would really help them from getting out from under the shadow of the French and Germans


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## harpo_72 (Feb 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Your, and your fellow leavers concerns for many of the members of the EU is touching. How about we stay and up our contributions as that would really help them from getting out from under the shadow of the French and Germans 

Click to expand...

I think that would be a great idea and we will build good strong friendships ðŸ™‚ðŸ‘


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Your, and your fellow leavers concerns for many of the members of the EU is touching. How about we stay and up our contributions as that would really help them from getting out from under the shadow of the French and Germans 

Click to expand...

And be ignored just as in the past 30yrs; whilst Brussels screw us as well: a very wise strategy. The UK could also enjoy 1 in 5 unemployed.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			And be ignored just as in the past 30yrs; whilst Brussels screw us as well: a very wise strategy. *The UK could also enjoy 1 in 5 unemployed*.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like project fear to me ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Your, and your fellow leavers concerns for many of the members of the EU is touching. How about we stay and up our contributions as that would really help them from getting out from under the shadow of the French and Germans 

Click to expand...

A genuine question for you and if possible could you give a genuine answer. Do you believe that because someone wishes the UK to leave the EU they automatically have a dislike or animosity for the other countries in the EU?


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			A genuine question for you and if possible could you give a genuine answer. Do you believe that because someone wishes the UK to leave the EU they automatically have a dislike or animosity for the other countries in the EU?
		
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No!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No!
		
Click to expand...

Thaks but I was interested in HK's opinion.


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thaks but I was interested in HK's opinion.
		
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And I have no doubt he will give it!

But, fwiw,  that's mine!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And I have no doubt he will give it!

But, fwiw,  that's mine!
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough but fwiw, I'm not interested in your opinion.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			And be ignored just as in the past 30yrs; whilst Brussels screw us as well: a very wise strategy. The UK could also enjoy 1 in 5 unemployed.
		
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Hate to break it to you but we are still in the EU and although you can question the validity of the stats, it seems we have decent employment figures whilst being in this evil empire.

It's as if being in the EU means you have to follow some rules around giving employees some decent workers rights but at the same time you have enough freedom to effect domestic economic policy meaning, on the surface of it, employment is not too bad.


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			... fwiw, I'm not interested in your opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Fwiw. I don't care whether you are or not! It's a forum, so everyone is entitled to expess their opinion!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Fwiw. I don't care whether you are or not! It's a forum, so everyone is entitled to expess their opinion!
		
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Of course you are but I'm also at liberty to have no interest in it.  Fwiw. ðŸ™„


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## Foxholer (Feb 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course you are but I'm also at liberty to have no interest in it.  Fwiw. ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

Zzzzzzzzzzzz! (Fwiw of course!)


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## Crazyface (Feb 28, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Oh dear oh dear .. i genuinely do not know what to say to that except i do hope ur just on a wind up for d craic
		
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Nope, just tend to see things really simply. Why the hell does the world have to be complicated?

Can you explain to me why this just isn't possible, with calling me or pointing out the massive history between England / Ireland / and the formation of N.Ireland. IE so all this aside why can't we just do what I said.


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## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2019)

Momentum forced Corbyns hand.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 28, 2019)

Credit to Coldwar Steve


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## bladeplayer (Feb 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Nope, just tend to see things really simply. Why the hell does the world have to be complicated?

Can you explain to me why this just isn't possible, with calling me or pointing out the massive history between England / Ireland / and the formation of N.Ireland. IE so all this aside why can't we just do what I said.
		
Click to expand...

Man i apologise i just cant answer u, i just dont know what to say cept u either dont know the history u asked me not to point out to u or u  live in a bubble.  (that may sound rude it is not meant to )..  .. im totaly bemused (is that a word) by both ur posts if life was as simple as u say ther would b no problems in the world ar all .. 
Actually im quiet stunned by both ur posts and had to read them numerous times to c was i reading them incorrectly


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



View attachment 26669


Credit to Coldwar Steve
		
Click to expand...

Very amusing, although I don't get why the Soap Stars and Kim Jong Un are in that boat. Are they on a booze cruise or illegal immigrants?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			I am well aware of most of your history lessons (Scottish ancestors!): professionally I've assisted many Scottish organisations and Universities as well as English companies locating to Scotland.

I did not select 'Hungary' it was at that point in the population ranking.  I do not share your view that Scotland would prosper independent of the UK because the full cost for Defence, Transport infrastructure, etc . etc would be prohibitive.

My questions did not originate from a media that you, unnecessarily label Unionist.

I asked a civil question: why did you need to go OTT with this last para? its exactly the reaction that seems to prevent a rational dialogue.
		
Click to expand...

Yes sorry for the last para. it was a general observation and not really aimed at you.

Defence....compare what Scotland's share of UK defence is compared to an independent Ireland. [Â£3.5b...to Â£0.8b off the top of my head] Trident ?
Compare the positioning of UK defence establishments pro rata between England and Scotland
Like many small countries Scotland has no real desire to police the rest of the world

Transport......â€¦.Scotland also is very strategically placed in the North Atlantic with a decent transport infrastructure within the central belt and three good airports. We do lack a bit in Ferry terminals and high speed trains. I make a regular journey from South Ayrshire to East Lothian coast to coast. It usually takes me 2.5 hours. 3 during busy times such as the Festival, and 2 if I am in a hurry.
Scotland also supplies the rUK with a decent chunk of its  Gas, Oil, Water and clean electricity. [plus whisky, gin, shortbread and jam of course ]


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes sorry for the last para. it was a general observation and not really aimed at you.

Defence....compare what Scotland's share of UK defence is compared to an independent Ireland. [Â£3.5b...to Â£0.8b off the top of my head] Trident ?
Compare the positioning of UK defence establishments pro rata between England and Scotland
Like many small countries Scotland has no real desire to police the rest of the world

Transport......â€¦.Scotland also is very strategically placed in the North Atlantic with a decent transport infrastructure within the central belt and three good airports. We do lack a bit in Ferry terminals and high speed trains. I make a regular journey from South Ayrshire to East Lothian coast to coast. It usually takes me 2.5 hours. 3 during busy times such as the Festival, and 2 if I am in a hurry.
Scotland also supplies the rUK with a decent chunk of its  Gas, Oil, Water and clean electricity. [plus whisky, gin, shortbread and jam of course ]
		
Click to expand...

And tartan golf towels.


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And in their opinion and mine, it would be wrong to agree to a bad deal, the power/control to avoid the 2nd referendum still lies with TM.
		
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I am not sure anyone has suggested we should sign a bad deal.
Of course what I consider a bad deal may differ from your idea of a bad deal.
The issue is that Labour are backing a second referendum if TM doesnâ€™t adopt THEIR idea of a good deal. Up until now what they wanted was not feasible or meant us leaving without leaving.
I imagine this is not what millions of Labour voters wanted when they voted to leave. The fact that Starmer wants the option to remain on a second referendum ballot will anger many in Labour heartlands. And rightly so.


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Why would you have any right to feel that? UK chose to leave the EU, not the other way around! They (the EU negotiators) are (supposedly) acting in the best interests of the members that remain!
		
Click to expand...

I think we have answered that one countless times.
I would add though that in the eyes of the EU, you should be treated better if you have never joined, paid in billions and supported the union for decades. You know, like Canada or Japan who seem to get great deals with no mention of customs unions, FOM, law supremacy.....


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## User62651 (Feb 28, 2019)

u


Sweep said:



			I am not sure anyone has suggested we should sign a bad deal.
Of course what I consider a bad deal may differ from your idea of a bad deal.
The issue is that Labour are backing a second referendum if TM doesnâ€™t adopt THEIR idea of a good deal. Up until now what they wanted was not feasible or meant us leaving without leaving.
I imagine this is not what millions of Labour voters wanted when they voted to leave. The fact that Starmer wants the option to remain on a second referendum ballot will *anger* many in Labour heartlands. And rightly so.
		
Click to expand...

It may delight even more. Maybe we should find out, now there is more clarity of what leaving actually entails. 
Boris and Gove seem awfully quiet these days.


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Apology accepted thank you.

Scotland has an economy that is very different to England and will be hit very hard by Brexit. Especially agriculture and fisheries.

Read up on the McCrone report for surprising information. With held for over 40 years by Westminster as they were so afraid of it's impact on the Scots.
Scotland relates more to Norway than England read up about the different way that Norway have handled their finances, as an independent country of 'a few millions', they seem to be doing very nicely.
Bear in mind Scotland who  the last 300 years have had their finances and investment controlled by Westminster. Over the last 60 years Scots, pro rata, have paid a higher income into the UK pot than the other three regions.
Look at an independent Scotland compared to other small European Countries. You gave probably the worst example in Hungary, you could have said Denmark, Norway, Ireland instead.

Please do not judge Scotland from the pages of the Unionist controlled newspapers and BBC. look a bit deeper and surprise yourself.
		
Click to expand...

I would be genuinely interested to know why brexit will impact badly on Scottish fisheries.


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## Mudball (Feb 28, 2019)

Well two reports out this week severerly undermine the Breshit gravy train.
1) The Govt assessment of No Deal impact seems to impact everyone and see the economy shrinking almost everywhere except the South/London.  So much for our golden future ahead 
2) Net Immigration figures (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47400679 ) show that EU figures are down but immigration from outside EU has increased.  So much for FOM baiters.   Maybe we should withdraw from all blocks like WTO, NATO, etc and draw up the drawbridge.


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes sorry for the last para. it was a general observation and not really aimed at you.

Defence....compare what Scotland's share of UK defence is compared to an independent Ireland. [Â£3.5b...to Â£0.8b off the top of my head] Trident ?
Compare the positioning of UK defence establishments pro rata between England and Scotland
Like many small countries Scotland has no real desire to police the rest of the world

Transport......â€¦.Scotland also is very strategically placed in the North Atlantic with a decent transport infrastructure within the central belt and three good airports. We do lack a bit in Ferry terminals and high speed trains. I make a regular journey from South Ayrshire to East Lothian coast to coast. It usually takes me 2.5 hours. 3 during busy times such as the Festival, and 2 if I am in a hurry.
Scotland also supplies the rUK with a decent chunk of its  Gas, Oil, Water and clean electricity. [plus whisky, gin, shortbread and jam of course ]
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I understand that Scotland has no desire to police the rest of the world or indeed pay for it,  I am sure an independent Scotland would still like to be protected by those of us who do pay and will continue to do so.
I am not sure of your point about the positioning of UK defence establishments. They have to go somewhere and anyway, we are full down here ðŸ˜€.  Are you saying if you join the EU an independent Scotland would take no EU army bases or house an EU nuclear deterrent?


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## Crazyface (Feb 28, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Man i apologise i just cant answer u, i just dont know what to say cept u either dont know the history u asked me not to point out to u or u  live in a bubble.  (that may sound rude it is not meant to )..  .. im totaly bemused (is that a word) by both ur posts if life was as simple as u say ther would b no problems in the world ar all ..
Actually im quiet stunned by both ur posts and had to read them numerous times to c was i reading them incorrectly
		
Click to expand...

I know my posts seem ridiculous, thanks for not tearing into me, but if only things could be simple we'd get a lot more done instead of all this bluddy argueing all the time.


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			u


It may delight even more. Maybe we should find out, now there is more clarity of what leaving actually entails.
Boris and Gove seem awfully quiet these days.

Click to expand...

I am just wondering what it is no-one understood about leaving in 2016 that is so clear now. If anything itâ€™s less clear now than ever.
I think you will find that the ERG (Boris et al) have chosen not to rock the boat right now and have decided to see what TM comes back with, as has been widely reported.


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## Slime (Feb 28, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Man i apologise i just cant answer u, i just dont know what to say cept u either dont know the history u asked me not to point out to u or u  live in a bubble.  (that may sound rude it is not meant to )..  .. im totaly bemused (is that a word) by both ur posts if life was as simple as u say ther would b no problems in the world ar all ..
*Actually* *im quiet stunned by both ur posts and had to read them numerous times to c was i reading them incorrectly*

Click to expand...

Have you tried reading your own?  
(That may sound rude it is not meant to).


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## Crazyface (Feb 28, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Well two reports out this week severerly undermine the Breshit gravy train.
1) The Govt assessment of No Deal impact seems to impact everyone and see the economy shrinking almost everywhere except the South/London.  So much for our golden future ahead
2) Net Immigration figures (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47400679 ) show that EU figures are down but immigration from outside EU has increased.  So much for FOM baiters.   Maybe we should withdraw from all blocks like WTO, NATO, etc and draw up the drawbridge.
		
Click to expand...

Reports? Jesus H, when we voted OUT, remember that, OUT, even the man in charge of the Bank Of England. someone who I would hope is a damn sight more intelligent than all our current MP#s put together, I mean he's handling our COUNTRIES finances, said things would go to hell in a hand cart and they haven't. So if he can't predict it right, what xchance has anyone else producing a "report". Hey. I know I'll put out a "report" that says it's all going to be bluddy marvellous and the sun will forever shine on England when we leave on the 29th of March. Will you believe that then?


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## Crazyface (Feb 28, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I am just wondering what it is no-one understood about leaving in 2016 that is so clear now. If anything itâ€™s less clear now than ever.
I think you will find that the ERG (Boris et al) have chosen not to rock the boat right now and have decided to see what TM comes back with, as has been widely reported.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. Just what do people know now that they didn't know then, apart from our MP's should all be removed from office as they are all incompetent.


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## robinthehood (Feb 28, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Well two reports out this week severerly undermine the Breshit gravy train.
1) The Govt assessment of No Deal impact seems to impact everyone and see the economy shrinking almost everywhere except the South/London.  So much for our golden future ahead 
2) Net Immigration figures (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47400679 ) show that EU figures are down but immigration from outside EU has increased.  So much for FOM baiters.   Maybe we should withdraw from all blocks like WTO, NATO, etc and draw up the drawbridge.
		
Click to expand...

I foresee the words project and fear coming soon.....


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## IanM (Feb 28, 2019)

Again, I disagree. The usual approach to a vote against the EU has been deployed to the letter


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## Crazyface (Feb 28, 2019)

Even my mum was spouting this garbage last week
 "Well we know more now". 
"Go on then ,what more do you know".
 "Well.....we just know more"

It's not use spouting what the remoaners are saying, quote FACTS !


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Well two reports out this week severerly undermine the Breshit gravy train.
1) The Govt assessment of No Deal impact seems to impact everyone and see the economy shrinking almost everywhere except the South/London.  So much for our golden future ahead
2) Net Immigration figures (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47400679 ) show that EU figures are down but immigration from outside EU has increased.  So much for FOM baiters.   Maybe we should withdraw from all blocks like WTO, NATO, etc and draw up the drawbridge.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing new here. The government has told us repeatedly that the economy will suffer. And whilst most accept there will be short term pain, leavers believe it will benefit us in the long term. You should also remember that the â€œgovernmentâ€ is Project Fear Central and practically every forecast to date has been wrong.
The point about immigration is that from outside the EU immigration can be controlled. Whilst we remain in the EU we cannot control immigration from the EU. So those that are coming from outside the EU are here because the UK needs them and they want to come.
Donâ€™t make the mistake of believing that leavers are against immigration. They are against uncontrolled immigration. There is a big difference.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I know my posts seem ridiculous, thanks for not tearing into me, but if only things could be simple we'd get a lot more done instead of all this bluddy argueing all the time.
		
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Conflicting vested interests destroy the likelihood of that in almost every case - that's simply 'human nature'!

Add to that several hundred years of conflict involving domination and exploitation AND religion and it should be no surprise that there's bad blood involved!


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I foresee the words project and fear coming soon.....
		
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I wonder why.


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## Crazyface (Feb 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Conflicting vested interests destroy the likelihood of that in almost every case - that's simply 'human nature'!

Add to that several hundred years of conflict involving domination and exploitation AND religion and it should be no surprise that there's bad blood involved!
		
Click to expand...

Hundreds of years of conflict. Should we then be up in arms with the French, the Romans, The bluddy Danes (I'm not a fan of Smichal)?


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## robinthehood (Feb 28, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I wonder why.
		
Click to expand...

Because it's your default answer to anything which shows up the folly of what you voted for.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I think we have answered that one countless times.
I would add though that in the eyes of the EU, you should be treated better if you have never joined, paid in billions and supported the union for decades. You know, like Canada or Japan who seem to get great deals with no mention of customs unions, FOM, law supremacy.....
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully, UK will get a similar deal when it (re)negotiates trading arrangements.

The 'other' bits of the EU/Member Country relationship are pretty much irrelevant to the likes of Canada and Japan!

Btw. New relationships very often get a better deal than exiting ones - just look at Broadband ones. And I've just had an offer of a Â£150 bung if I transfer my Current Account from my existing provider to a new one! I'd bet my existing provider won't make a 'counter-offer'! And I'd bet the 'new' bank isn't offering existing customers anything to stay!


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## robinthehood (Feb 28, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Nothing new here. The government has told us repeatedly that the economy will suffer. And whilst most accept there will be short term pain, leavers believe it will benefit us in the long term. You should also remember that the â€œgovernmentâ€ is Project Fear Central and practically every forecast to date has been wrong.
The point about immigration is that from outside the EU immigration can be controlled. Whilst we remain in the EU we cannot control immigration from the EU. So those that are coming from outside the EU are here because the UK needs them and they want to come.
Donâ€™t make the mistake of believing that leavers are against immigration. They are against uncontrolled immigration. There is a big difference.
		
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What does short term pain mean? I hear this oft quoted but with out any actual detail of what it means


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Hundreds of years of conflict. Should we then be up in arms with the French, the Romans, The bluddy Danes (I'm not a fan of Smichal)?
		
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Well those other actual conflicts ended (sporting ones excepted) many (even hundreds of) years ago. The Troubles are very recent.

Oh and you forgot to mention those pesky Scots btw.


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## Crazyface (Feb 28, 2019)

And as for trading with the EU after Brexit, tariff and all that. I said to a mate who works in import and export, that we could just ship to countries with deal with the EU and then they forward to the EU. His reply? "Don't you think this already happens?" Goods are shipped out from the UK. Rebadged and forwarded to the EU from countries with better deals than us who are OUTSIDE the EU. 

Now who wants to stay in?


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Because it's your default answer to anything which shows up the folly of what you voted for.
		
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Not for the first time you are talking nonsense. A bit like project fear actually. 
If you want to talk about default, the default position of remainers is project fear. No real substance. No real facts. Just what might happen.
Letâ€™s talk facts. Massive unemployment across Europe, especially youth unemployment. The most right wing govt in Italy since Mussolini, the most right wing govt in Austria since Hitler (who was Austrian), Germany avoiding recession by 0.1%, massive protests across France every week for months Etc etc etc.
There is only one folly here and itâ€™s not leaving the EU which you seem to think is the land of milk and honey.


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Hopefully, UK will get a similar deal when it (re)negotiates trading arrangements.

The 'other' bits of the EU/Member Country relationship are pretty much irrelevant to the likes of Canada and Japan!

Btw. New relationships very often get a better deal than exiting ones - just look at Broadband ones. And I've just had an offer of a Â£150 bung if I transfer my Current Account from my existing provider to a new one! I'd bet my existing provider won't make a 'counter-offer'! And I'd bet the 'new' bank isn't offering existing customers anything to stay!
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. We should have been allowed to negotiate a trade deal in tandem with the WA.
So basically you are saying that FOM doesnâ€™t apply to Canada because itâ€™s so far away? I know lots of people who would love to live in Canada. And I know lots of Canadians who adore Europe. I am guessing it wasnâ€™t even discussed.
Is the EU only relevant because itâ€™s local then? When micro businesses are importing from China, maybe the local thing has had its day.
Whilst I take your point on your broadband deal, I think the UK leaving the EU is not really comparable.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Feb 28, 2019)

I've not been on this thread for a while so apologies if this has already been said but.......

I think it would be a BIG mistake if the Govt vote to take no deal off the table. 

Whilst no deal is far from ideal, it is like a nuclear deterrent. As long as we have it we have bargaining power. Once it goes the EU will roll us over completely!


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## User62651 (Feb 28, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I've not been on this thread for a while so apologies if this has already been said but.......

I think it would be a BIG mistake if the Govt vote to take no deal off the table.

Whilst no deal is far from ideal, it is like a nuclear deterrent. *As long as we have it we have bargaining power. Once it goes the EU will roll us over completely*!
		
Click to expand...

In theory yes but over the near 3 years since ref UKs stance has weakened from May's original bluff of "No deal is better than a bad deal / We will walk away" to "My bad deal is better than no deal" and running the clock down to achieve it. Some may say that's bad negotiating but perhaps being at the 'coal face' for all this time and having had some harsh reality checks over all this time, PM May and her team know we're significantly worse off under no deal and the EU know we know it too.

In that regard No Deal is not a true bargaining position, bluff is exposed. Guessing EU knew that all along being way more experienced at this type of negotiation than UK govt.

edit:  Tories are sold on being the party of economic stability and sensible management - making the country poorer at their behest will stick, have dug a big hole for themselves, torn between upholding a democratic vote but not taking the blame for the ensuing carnage......and we haven't even left yet! Madness I tell ye!


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2019)

drive4show said:



			....
I think it would be a BIG mistake if the Govt vote to take no deal off the table.
...
As long as we have it we have bargaining power. Once it goes the EU will roll us over completely!
		
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I agree!



drive4show said:



			....
Whilst no deal is far from ideal, it is like a nuclear deterrent...
		
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Though we would also be launching one/getting one launched at ourselves! *M*utually *A*ssured *D*estruction applies, so brinkmanship becomes a key part of the negotiating 'equation'. Unfortunately, I believe the EU team are in a far better place than the UK one on this - not only because of their (beligerant) stance, but also because, like when George Soros took advantage of UK exiting the ERM), the steps that TM/UK must take are known and results virtually 100% predictable!

Oh and a small refinement....It's not 'the Government' taking 'No deal' off the table. It's (likely to be) Parliament!


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## bladeplayer (Feb 28, 2019)

Slime said:



			Have you tried reading your own?  
(That may sound rude it is not meant to). 

Click to expand...

I tend to read b4 posting . What ones u having difficulty with i will try explain


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## Hobbit (Feb 28, 2019)

NO DEAL is the big ogre!!

What is No Deal? Just what are the aspects that make No Deal good, bad or otherwise?

Its crashing out, its cliff edge, its just been turned into an ogre that no one really knows the detail of. Its marketing hype that makes people buy Apple or or or. Define it! Define the actual realities, not the it will... and guess what? Everyone is buying it because they've been told its the ogre. Is it? I don't know if it is or it isn't but I'll hazard a guess it is a million miles away from being as bad as its being portrayed.

God knows how the rest of the world survives by not being part of the EU. God knows how the world's quickest growing economies are not in the EU.

They should have walked away from the EU 2 years ago and then negotiated a trade deal but they didn't have the balls for it.


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## bladeplayer (Feb 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I know my posts seem ridiculous, thanks for not tearing into me, but if only things could be simple we'd get a lot more done instead of all this bluddy argueing all the time.
		
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In theory id agree whole heartedly with u but it aint like that .  Id prefer it ur way to be honest

I tend not to tear into peoples opinions no matter how much they differ from mine to be honest enough people doing that


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

Mudball said:



			2) Net Immigration figures (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47400679 ) show that EU figures are down but immigration from outside EU has increased.  So much for FOM baiters.   *Maybe we should withdraw from all blocks like WTO, NATO, etc and draw up the drawbridge.*

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You learn something new each day. I never realised the WTO & NATO were responsible for immigration.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What does short term pain mean? I hear this oft quoted but with out any actual detail of what it means
		
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Its the difference between someone standing on your foot and poking you in the eye with a pencil ðŸ‘


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## jp5 (Feb 28, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Whilst no deal is far from ideal, it is like a nuclear deterrent. As long as we have it we have bargaining power.
		
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Except that in this case, the bargaining 'power' is threatening to nuke ourselves.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 28, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Except that in this case, the bargaining 'power' is threatening to nuke ourselves.
		
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Yep, but with the wind from the north-west the EU will suffer the fallout as well.


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## robinthehood (Feb 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yep, but with the wind from the north-west the EU will suffer the fallout as well.
		
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Great.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Except that in this case, the bargaining 'power' is threatening to nuke ourselves.
		
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Isnt that the case with Nuclear Deterrents. If you don't have them you are in danger of being walked over.


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## Foxholer (Feb 28, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Exactly. We should have been allowed to negotiate a trade deal in tandem with the WA.
....
		
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Possibly, but that wasn't (allowed to be) on the agenda for the WA. I'm not certain, but I believe 'future relationships' were part of the aspirational, non-binding part of the document(s) produced as a result of the 'negotiation'.


Sweep said:



			...So basically you are saying that FOM doesnâ€™t apply to Canada because itâ€™s so far away?
...
		
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The clue to WHY it's irrelevant is in the (limited) name of the agreement - Free Trade - and the first word of one of the participants (European)! The EU has negotiated (and is negotiating) many FTAs. And that's all they are - nothing to do with anything else about the EU except Trade!


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## drdel (Feb 28, 2019)

Ireland, for reasons that escape me, have decided to impound two very small fishing boats from NI. They claim these boats were fishing illegally in Irish water. Its in an area disputed by ROI and UK but where there has been a tacit longstanding informal agreement. The UK is not restricting ROI boats.

What a pointless act with a 'gunship'! Is there no grown ups in charge nowadays ?


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Possibly, but that wasn't (allowed to be) on the agenda for the WA. I'm not certain, but I believe 'future relationships' were part of the aspirational, non-binding part of the document(s) produced as a result of the 'negotiation'.

The clue to WHY it's irrelevant is in the (limited) name of the agreement - Free Trade - and the first word of one of the participants (European)! The EU has negotiated (and is negotiating) many FTAs. And that's all they are - nothing to do with anything else about the EU except Trade!
		
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Ah yes! I remember the free trade agreement. Thatâ€™s what we signed up for. Why canâ€™t we just have one of those without all the other crap?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I am not sure anyone has suggested we should sign a bad deal.
Of course what I consider a bad deal may differ from your idea of a bad deal.
The issue is that Labour are backing a second referendum if TM doesnâ€™t adopt THEIR idea of a good deal. Up until now what they wanted was not feasible or meant us leaving without leaving.
I imagine this is not what millions of Labour voters wanted when they voted to leave. The fact that Starmer wants the option to remain on a second referendum ballot will anger many in Labour heartlands. And rightly so.
		
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And I donâ€™t disagree, but the deal TM has currently was voted down, ie â€œthe bad dealâ€ if she gets no more movement are you suggesting we should accept it or walk away with No Deal.

If thatâ€™s the situation, and again Iâ€™d suggest itâ€™s only a few MPâ€™s who want that, we all lose.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Ah yes! I remember the free trade agreement. Thatâ€™s what we signed up for. Why canâ€™t we just have one of those without all the other crap?
		
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That's correct.  Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Agreed. Just what do people know now that they didn't know then, apart from our MP's should all be removed from office as they are all incompetent.
		
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That everybody lied and nobody had an actual plan!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And I donâ€™t disagree, but the deal TM has currently was voted down, ie â€œthe bad dealâ€ if she gets no more movement are you suggesting we should accept it or walk away with No Deal.

If thatâ€™s the situation, and again Iâ€™d suggest itâ€™s only a few MPâ€™s who want that, we all lose.
		
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Can you explain how Brexit can be concluded and the result of the referendum respected if no deal is not an option?  Can we say to the EU we don't accept the current deal so please give us a better one, even though we are not prepared to do anything if you don't?    Do you think we should have another referendum?  Should we call an end to Article 50?    Should we ask to extend article 50 and go through another period of parliament squabbling?  Should we join EFTA?

If we take No-deal off the table I cannot see for the life of me how we square this circle without throwing democracy in the bin.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			That everybody lied and nobody had an actual plan!
		
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Cameron should have had a plan, its the fault of the executive when the referendum was called and down to their blind faith that the public wouldnt have the balls to  vote leave after their project fear 1. You can't blame back benchers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Can you explain how Brexit can be concluded and the result of the referendum respected if no deal is not an option?  Can we say to the EU we don't accept the current deal so please give us a better one, even though we are not prepared to do anything if you don't?    Do you think we should have another referendum?  Should we call an end to Article 50?    Should we ask to extend article 50 and go through another period of parliament squabbling?  Should we join EFTA?

If we take No-deal off the table I cannot see for the life of me how we square this circle without throwing democracy in the bin.
		
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Is all that Labours fault, because it seems some would like to twist it that way.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is all that Labours fault, because it seems some would like to twist it that way.
		
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Did I mention Labour?   Its due to MPs of all parties.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Cameron should have had a plan, its the fault of the executive when the referendum was called and down to their blind faith that the public wouldnt have the balls to  vote leave after their project fear 1. You can't blame back benchers.
		
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I blame each and everyone of them, are they not meant to represent their constituents?
As soon as the result was known they should of all come together and formulate a plan, not bury their heads and wait 2 years!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Did I mention Labour?
		
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No, but you answered my post which WAS in response to holding Labour to account.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, but you answered my post which WAS in response to holding Labour to account.
		
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Sorry but I can see no mention of Labour in your post I quoted.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry but I can see no mention of Labour in your post I quoted.
		
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Seriously! Tried reading the post from Sweep that I responded to.


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## Hobbit (Feb 28, 2019)

Here's a thought; how many people in here have walked into a car showroom and told the salesman we would not leave until we had a deal on that car? I wonder what the salesman would do with the discount rates he was authorised to give if he knew you wouldn't walk away from a deal? I wonder what price he'd offer you for your car if he knew that you wouldn't walk away?

Make your own mind up on what is the best way to negotiate. Make your own mind up on who, both at Westminster and in Brussels is negotiating in good faith, or hasn't got their own agenda outside of what is the best course for all sides.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously! Tried reading the post from Sweep that I responded to.

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I replied to your post not his. Look, i am attempting to debate the no deal situation with you, no need for the sarcastic emcom is there.

Anyhow thats my view on taking no deal off the table and what other options there may be.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I blame each and everyone of them, are they not meant to represent their constituents?
As soon as the result was known they should of all come together and formulate a plan, not bury their heads and wait 2 years!
		
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Its the job of the executive to govern not back benchers, the government have the civil service to assist them others dont, their job is to to support, amend or oppose.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I replied to your post not his. Look, i am attempting to debate the no deal situation with you, no need for the sarcastic emcom is there.

Anyhow thats my view on taking no deal off the table and what other options there may be.
		
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It maybe ok to you for you to understand your post and its intention, but I read it in the context of sweeps post and my answer to him, look at it another way, read sweeps post, read my reply and then change your name to sweep and read that reply, it doesnâ€™t make sense in that context.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its the job of the executive to govern not back benchers, the government have the civil service to assist them others dont, their job is to to support, amend or oppose.
		
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But they didnâ€™t talk to each other or across the floor and look at the mess.


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## Hobbit (Feb 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its the job of the executive to govern not back benchers, the government have the civil service to assist them others dont, their job is to to support, amend or oppose.
		
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Which highlights why Westminster is in such a mess at present. Just about everyone wants to be a chief. Imagine any business anywhere in the world where the shop floor does its own thing instead of following the production plans. 

And they're all working in the best interests of the country... yeah, of course they are.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But they didnâ€™t talk to each other or across the floor and look at the mess.
		
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I don't believe thats the case.  As I explained its the job of the executive to govern, they may listen to others but its their job to set out a plan that puts their manifesto into effect.   OK lets mention Labour, their front bench have not acted in the national interest IMO, they have a job to hold the government to account but in the case of Brexit they have been playing games whereby they have not made their stance clear enough for anyone to understand, their six tests were impossible to be achieved without staying in the EU, Corbyn has only been interested in using Brexit to progress his political career and frustrated the task of leaving the EU while giving lip service to supporting it.

I say again, you cannot expect back benchers to form a government plan although thats what we are experiencing now and look what a dogs dinner that has become.  In such times parliament needs to respect the democratic will of the people, stop playing mind games and work together genuinely to achieve the Brexit they deserve. 

Before you say it I am also critical of Conservatives who are frustrating the process.


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And I donâ€™t disagree, but the deal TM has currently was voted down, ie â€œthe bad dealâ€ if she gets no more movement are you suggesting we should accept it or walk away with No Deal.

If thatâ€™s the situation, and again Iâ€™d suggest itâ€™s only a few MPâ€™s who want that, we all lose.
		
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If she comes back with the same deal, I think we all know what will happen.
No, I donâ€™t think we should sign a bad deal. As I said, I like the â€œno deal is better than a bad deal optionâ€.
As for a second referendum, I believe we should not go anywhere near it. The repercussions are dreadful. TBH I cannot believe that anyone is seriously contemplating it, especially those in Parliament and government. But then I never thought I would see political times like this.
Letâ€™s be honest, the only reason a second referendum is even talked about is because some people like Starmer, Grieve, Soubry just cannot accept the referendum result, so they want to overturn it. Labour have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker. As a democratic party they are actually adopting an undemocratic policy in one of the most important issues of our time.
What seems to be being missed is that the day the UK leaves is not necessarily the end of the matter. We could leave on March 29 with no deal and still do a deal later. In fact the EU may well be keener to talk then, when they see all their UK trade disappearing.
I wonder why no-one in Parliament is mentioning that right now.
So, to answer your question, yes, I believe if she comes back with a bad deal we should reject it and leave with no deal. Absolutely.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't believe thats the case.  As I explained its the job of the executive to govern, they may listen to others but its their job to set out a plan that puts their manifesto into effect.   OK lets mention Labour, their front bench have not acted in the national interest IMO, they have a job to hold the government to account but in the case of Brexit they have been playing games whereby they have not made their stance clear enough for anyone to understand, their six tests were impossible to be achieved without staying in the EU, Corbyn has only been interested in using Brexit to progress his political career and frustrated the task of leaving the EU while giving lip service to supporting it.

I say again, you cannot expect back benchers to form a government plan although thats what we are experiencing now and look what a dogs dinner that has become.  In such times parliament needs to respect the democratic will of the people, stop playing mind games and work together genuinely to achieve the Brexit they deserve.

Before you say it I am also critical of Conservatives who are frustrating the process.
		
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Just like you I agree how it should of worked, but for the life of me I canâ€™t see past the tory party for putting us in the position we now find ourselves, like Iâ€™ve said before they could of controlled and sorted this out and made Labour irrelevant or they could of (for the sake of the Country) formed a cross party Brexit team who agreed as one the way forward on negotiation, to find out the deal so late in the day and too find the majority of both sides of the house are against it is ridiculous.
Now we have Labour moving the goalposts etc and the mess is getting worse.
I know people donâ€™t agree with me, but I really do put all the blame on TM and the tories.
I also believe if the roles were reversed and we were in the same position Iâ€™d put all the blame on JC and the Labour Party.


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			That everybody lied and nobody had an actual plan!
		
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To be fair I knew they were lying and that leaving would take some planning.
What I didnâ€™t know was that there would be such a backlash from remainers and that feelings would be so high and entrenched. I would have never believed that people would be so ready to ditch democracy for so little. I remain staggered.
I didnâ€™t expect our government to be so cynical is their negotiations or to be so weak.
But none of this impacts on the central issue. I knew what I was voting for.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2019)

Sweep said:



			If she comes back with the same deal, I think we all know what will happen.
No, I donâ€™t think we should sign a bad deal. As I said, I like the â€œno deal is better than a bad deal optionâ€.
As for a second referendum, I believe we should not go anywhere near it. The repercussions are dreadful. TBH I cannot believe that anyone is seriously contemplating it, especially those in Parliament and government. But then I never thought I would see political times like this.
Letâ€™s be honest, the only reason a second referendum is even talked about is because some people like Starmer, Grieve, Soubry just cannot accept the referendum result, so they want to overturn it. Labour have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker. As a democratic party they are actually adopting an undemocratic policy in one of the most important issues of our time.
What seems to be being missed is that the day the UK leaves is not necessarily the end of the matter. We could leave on March 29 with no deal and still do a deal later. In fact the EU may well be keener to talk then, when they see all their UK trade disappearing.
I wonder why no-one in Parliament is mentioning that right now.
So, to answer your question, yes, I believe if she comes back with a bad deal we should reject it and leave with no deal. Absolutely.
		
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No issues with any of that, I donâ€™t want a 2nd Referendum, but if we do go down that road I believe the biggest fuss will come from a very small minority, almost the hardliners, I think the turnout would be a lot less because with the mess were in people have had enough, they are fed up with the whole issue and will vote whichever way they think it will go away the quickest. Sad indeed.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Just like you I agree how it should of worked, but for the life of me I canâ€™t see past the tory party for putting us in the position we now find ourselves, like Iâ€™ve said before they could of controlled and sorted this out and made Labour irrelevant or they could of (for the sake of the Country) formed a cross party Brexit team who agreed as one the way forward on negotiation, to find out the deal so late in the day and too find the majority of both sides of the house are against it is ridiculous.
Now we have Labour moving the goalposts etc and the mess is getting worse.
I know people donâ€™t agree with me, but I really do put all the blame on TM and the tories.
I also believe if the roles were reversed and we were in the same position Iâ€™d put all the blame on JC and the Labour Party.
		
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A cross party consensus doesn't exist, labour insist on us staying in a customs union which in effect keeps us tied to the EU. Please explain how this circle can be squared.


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## Sweep (Feb 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously! Tried reading the post from Sweep that I responded to.

Click to expand...

You are insinuating I blame Labour for the state of the negotiations. I do not. I am against them threatening to adopt a policy of a second referendum and I said they have to be responsible for their own actions. I thought I had been clear on that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



			To be fair I knew they were lying and that leaving would take some planning.
What I didnâ€™t know was that there would be such a backlash from remainers and that feelings would be so high and entrenched. I would have never believed that people would be so ready to ditch democracy for so little. I remain staggered.
I didnâ€™t expect our government to be so cynical is their negotiations or to be so weak.
But none of this impacts on the central issue. I knew what I was voting for.
		
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I took my time and tried to see past the hot air, but come on, for a vote that was so close, weâ€™d of had the same type of people and reaction if the vote had gone the other way.
Far too important to expect people who voted remain to walk away and stay silent.


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## Sweep (Mar 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It maybe ok to you for you to understand your post and its intention, but I read it in the context of sweeps post and my answer to him, look at it another way, read sweeps post, read my reply and then change your name to sweep and read that reply, it doesnâ€™t make sense in that context.

Click to expand...

Heâ€™s not changing his name to Sweep. Thatâ€™s my name. I was here first ðŸ˜€


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			A cross party consensus doesn't exist, labour insist on us staying in a customs union which in effect keeps us tied to the EU. Please explain how this circle can be squared.
		
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Thatâ€™s now, all these cross party disagreements should of been hammered out in private before we started negotiating, Labour may or may not have given ground, but weâ€™ll never know, all this is being played out in public and the only winner is the EU.


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## Sweep (Mar 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Just like you I agree how it should of worked, but for the life of me I canâ€™t see past the tory party for putting us in the position we now find ourselves, like Iâ€™ve said before they could of controlled and sorted this out and made Labour irrelevant or they could of (for the sake of the Country) formed a cross party Brexit team who agreed as one the way forward on negotiation, to find out the deal so late in the day and too find the majority of both sides of the house are against it is ridiculous.
*Now we have Labour moving the goalposts etc and the mess is getting worse.
I know people donâ€™t agree with me, but I really do put all the blame on TM and the tories.*
I also believe if the roles were reversed and we were in the same position Iâ€™d put all the blame on JC and the Labour Party.
		
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Re the bold bit. You appear to be contradicting yourself


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



			You are insinuating I blame Labour for the state of the negotiations. I do not. I am against them threatening to adopt a policy of a second referendum and I said they have to be responsible for their own actions. I thought I had been clear on that.
		
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No, never meant to insinuate that, Iâ€™m on about the mess since the deal.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Re the bold bit. You appear to be contradicting yourself
		
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Because I go back to my very simplistic view as someone who voted leave and is a Labour supporter, TM and the tories could of made Labourâ€™s stance, policies, pov, etc irrelevant.
The focus in the media is on Labour when it should be on TM getting a deal.


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## Sweep (Mar 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I took my time and tried to see past the hot air, but come on, for a vote that was so close, weâ€™d of had the same type of people and reaction if the vote had gone the other way.
Far too important to expect people who voted remain to walk away and stay silent.
		
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With respect, there was no hot air in my post. It was genuinely how I saw things.
I agree that with a vote so close the brexiteers like Farage would have been emboldened and the Brexit issue would certainly not have gone away. I never expected it to. Just look at what happened in Scotland.
However, the default position of the UK being in the EU would have remained the status quo. Little would have changed. I donâ€™t believe the brexiteers would have been keen to ditch democracy or call for an immediate second referendum ( itâ€™s hard to compare exactly, because remainers and Labour are calling for a second referendum before the first is enacted. This is unprecedented.)
I donâ€™t think we would have seen anything like the reaction, simply because little would have changed.


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## Sweep (Mar 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because I go back to my very simplistic view as someone who voted leave and is a Labour supporter, TM and the tories could of made Labourâ€™s stance, policies, pov, etc irrelevant.
The focus in the media is on Labour when it should be on TM getting a deal.
		
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The current focus is on Labour simply because they have radically changed their policy at the last minute and that position is suddenly the polar opposite of the governments.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



			The current focus is on Labour simply because they have radically changed their policy at the last minute and that position is suddenly the polar opposite of the governments.
		
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If that polar opposite is to leave with a deal, then yes ... but am not aware anyone on here thinks TMâ€™s deal is right.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 1, 2019)

Spot on


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1101361674940964864


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



			With respect, there was no hot air in my post. It was genuinely how I saw things.
I agree that with a vote so close the brexiteers like Farage would have been emboldened and the Brexit issue would certainly not have gone away. I never expected it to. Just look at what happened in Scotland.
However, the default position of the UK being in the EU would have remained the status quo. Little would have changed. I donâ€™t believe the brexiteers would have been keen to ditch democracy or call for an immediate second referendum ( itâ€™s hard to compare exactly, because remainers and Labour are calling for a second referendum before the first is enacted. This is unprecedented.)
I donâ€™t think we would have seen anything like the reaction, simply because little would have changed.
		
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Hot air during the campaign, not your post!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 1, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Spot on


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1101361674940964864

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It's a good routine that he does and there is a lot of truth in it.  Only potential difference if there was ever another one would be that I'd expect more young people would come out to vote, not sure how much that would sway the percentages though.

Agree that those that did vote last time would mostly vote in much the same way as I think we have gone way too far down the path now for people to have a sensible rational debate. And both sides are even more hardened in their views now thanks to what seems like 20 years of both sides making the same arguments over and over and over and over and over again.  See this thread for proof.  Also on five live there was some kind of debate this morning where on one side you had some one going on about us saving millions thought not paying MEPs wages as a reason to leave and on the other side you had some vegan baker saying she hasn't booked a holiday in Europe as she was worried about her travel insurance not being valid or some sort of stupid scare story she'd swallowed.  And you kind of despair if that is where we are.


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## Foxholer (Mar 1, 2019)

A potential example of REAL government mismanagement! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47403653

While EuroTunnel was never, imo, going to be considered as a contingency for...problems getting across the channel via EuroTunnel, the lack of planning (and consultation) for a 'No Deal' scenario seems pretty damning!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also on five live there was some kind of debate this morning where on one side you had some one going on about us saving millions thought not paying MEPs wages as a reason to leave and on the other side you had some vegan baker saying she hasn't booked a holiday in Europe as she was worried about her travel insurance not being valid or some sort of stupid scare story she'd swallowed.  And you kind of despair if that is where we are.
		
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Never, ever underestimate the stupidity of everyday people


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 1, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			A potential example of REAL government mismanagement! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47403653

While EuroTunnel was never, imo, going to be considered as a contingency for...problems getting across the channel via EuroTunnel, the lack of planning (and consultation) for a 'No Deal' scenario seems pretty damning!
		
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I think it's pretty clear we won't leave with a no deal on March the 29th. May be a no deal on June 29th or a deal on March the 29th, but a no deal on March the 29th where'd they'd finally have some concrete advice on what will happen and have to tell businesses and the public that they'd have to prepare for a no deal with just 2 weeks to go would just be a suicide note by the Tory party and TMay.  No matter how much they try to blame others, they'll own it.


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## Foxholer (Mar 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think it's pretty clear we won't leave with a no deal on March the 29th. May be a no deal on June 29th or a deal on March the 29th, but a no deal on March the 29th where'd they'd finally have some concrete advice on what will happen and have to tell businesses and the public that they'd have to prepare for a no deal with just 2 weeks to go would just be a suicide note by the Tory party and TMay.  No matter how much they try to blame others, they'll own it.
		
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While I'm inclined to believe that (no 'No Deal' after 29/3) to be the case. I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of planning/guidance etc. isn't simply another example of their inability to plan properly! And while it's the Civil service that does the work, it's the government that controls it! So it'll certainly be the Tories that 'own' that particular slurp of the poisoned chalice - they had the antidote available but failed to use it!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 1, 2019)

Â£33Million compensation to Eurotunnel from the tax-payer in a settlement over the no-deal Brexit Ferry contracts.

Letâ€™s not talk about 2nd Referendum thatâ€™s not needed, what we do need is a General Election!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 1, 2019)

'Once we hit the iceberg we are all on it together'
Comforting words from a government minister on Brexit, according to BBC's Nick Eardley

I preferred, 'rolling up our sleeves'


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## Mudball (Mar 1, 2019)

Remainers should lobby for Grayling to be made Brexit Secretary..   
Leavers should lobby for Grayling to become the EU negotiator


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 1, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Remainers should lobby for Grayling to be made Brexit Secretary..  
Leavers should lobby for Grayling to become the EU negotiator
		
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I actually think that a third of Labour Party members [there is 600,000 of them] should join what is left of the Tory party and vote for Grayling as leader.
That'll be a laugh eh.


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## Foxholer (Mar 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Â£33Million compensation to Eurotunnel from the tax-payer in a settlement over the no-deal Brexit Ferry contracts.

Letâ€™s not talk about 2nd Referendum thatâ€™s not needed, what we do need is a General Election!
		
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Won't help!

Might (can't use 'May'!) even mean that the Referendum result was ignored - for no good reason!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 1, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Won't help!

Might (can't use 'May'!) even mean that the Referendum result was ignored - for no good reason!
		
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It would help if all parties said we are leaving and our plan is etc etc, that way youâ€™re not having a 2nd Referendum, we definitely leave, and the Country backs the Party they wish to take us out and be in Government.

2 birds, 1 stone.


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## Foxholer (Mar 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It would help if all parties said we are leaving and our plan is etc etc, that way youâ€™re not having a 2nd Referendum, we definitely leave, and the Country backs the Party they wish to take us out and be in Government.

2 birds, 1 stone.
		
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Hardly likely to get that sort of honesty from a political party!

And it's actually almost reasonable why not too - as if other (generally unforseen) circumstances change, they need to be able to change too.


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## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It would help if all parties said we are leaving and our plan is etc etc, that way youâ€™re not having a 2nd Referendum, we definitely leave, and the Country backs the Party they wish to take us out and be in Government.

2 birds, 1 stone.
		
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A bit like the promise the two major parties made at the last election.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			A bit like the promise the two major parties made at the last election.
		
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Nothings changed........yet 
Plus I donâ€™t remember any Party telling us what they would negotiate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 1, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Hardly likely to get that sort of honesty from a political party!

And it's actually almost reasonable why not too - as if other (generally unforseen) circumstances change, they need to be able to change too.
		
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But Labour are possibly changing their position on a 2nd Referendum and people are condemning them(including me)


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## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Nothings changed........yet
Plus I donâ€™t remember any Party telling us what they would negotiate.
		
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No detail but they were committed to taking us out of the EU by the end of March so why would we believe any commitment they made in any future manifesto promise for another GE?


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## Foxholer (Mar 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But Labour are possibly changing their position on a 2nd Referendum and *people are condemning them(including me)*

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But, if you read their Manifesto, it was 'Labour accepts the referendum result... will put the national interest first.' A classic 'cleverly worded' load of waffle that doesn't actually commit to anything and allows them to deem that 'Our changed policy is in the national interest, as per our Manifesto'! They DO, however, specifically reject 'No Deal'!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			No detail but they were committed to taking us out of the EU by the end of March so why would we believe any commitment they made in any future manifesto promise for another GE?
		
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TM is possibly changing that date, not the Labour Party, unless of course you think they should agree to any deal so long as itâ€™s by the 29th March.


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## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			TM is possibly changing that date, not the Labour Party, unless of course you think they should agree to any deal so long as itâ€™s by the 29th March.
		
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Answered the way I did because I thought you were suggesting another GE where the party's, could confirm (again) their commitment to leave the EU.


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## Old Skier (Mar 1, 2019)

Well our dear old Sara of Totnes 3 years ago but down a proposal in Parliament that MPs who leave their party should automatically trigger a bye election. Seems to have had a change of heart.


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## IainP (Mar 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			......  Also on five live there was some kind of debate this morning where on one side you had some one going on about us saving millions thought not paying MEPs wages as a reason to leave and on the other side you had some vegan baker saying she hasn't booked a holiday in Europe as she was worried about her travel insurance not being valid or some sort of stupid scare story she'd swallowed.  And you kind of despair if that is where we are.
		
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M: I'm going on holiday to Europe 
W: Where are you going?
M: Bogna Regis!
Courtesy of Morcambe and Wise eons ago ðŸ˜

Appreciate you were just the messenger here HK passing on the story.  Always amuses me when people talk about "going to Europe", seemingly forgetting they are already there.

Anyway back to the serious stuff...


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## Sweep (Mar 1, 2019)

If you need an explanation as to why the negotiations have been handled so badly by the UK side, here it is.
Laura Kuenssberg of the BBC has been interviewing Nick Timothy, TMâ€™s former Chief of Staff for a documentary. According to Ms Kuenssberg Timothy says TM sees Brexit as a damage limitation excercise.
So there you have it.


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## Sweep (Mar 1, 2019)

According to the BBC, Spain has approved measures for Britons living in Spain to remain there in the event of no deal.

â€œSpain's cabinet has approved measures for Britons in Spain to continue living there as now if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.

Foreign Minister Josep Borrell said the main purpose was that no-one, British or Spanish, would be left unprotected.

Spain estimates that the measures, which would become law under a no-deal Brexit, would grant residency rights to about 400,000 UK citizens.â€


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## Hobbit (Mar 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



			According to the BBC, Spain has approved measures for Britons living in Spain to remain there in the event of no deal.

â€œSpain's cabinet has approved measures for Britons in Spain to continue living there as now if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.

Foreign Minister Josep Borrell said the main purpose was that no-one, British or Spanish, would be left unprotected.

Spain estimates that the measures, which would become law under a no-deal Brexit, would grant residency rights to about 400,000 UK citizens.â€
		
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Only if the UK reciprocates. Also, this is a unilateral decision by Spain as the EU team has refused to do it as they see it as diluting the negotiations if lots of mini deals are done.


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## Hobbit (Mar 1, 2019)

Sweep said:



			If you need an explanation as to why the negotiations have been handled so badly by the UK side, here it is.
Laura Kuenssberg of the BBC has been interviewing Nick Timothy, TMâ€™s former Chief of Staff for a documentary. According to Ms Kuenssberg Timothy says TM sees Brexit as a damage limitation excercise.
So there you have it.
		
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Is that his opinion or does he know that for sure?


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## Foxholer (Mar 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:





Sweep said:



			According to the BBC, Spain has approved measures for Britons living in Spain to remain there in the event of no deal.

â€œSpain's cabinet has approved measures for Britons in Spain to continue living there as now if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.

Foreign Minister Josep Borrell said the main purpose was that no-one, British or Spanish, would be left unprotected.

Spain estimates that the measures, which would become law under a no-deal Brexit, would grant residency rights to about 400,000 UK citizens.â€
		
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Only if the UK reciprocates. Also, this is a unilateral decision by Spain as the EU team has refused to do it as they see it as diluting the negotiations if lots of mini deals are done.
		
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I seem to remember Hobbit posting about that a couple of thou (or thereabouts) posts ago!

Nothing new there!


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## Sweep (Mar 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Only if the UK reciprocates. Also, this is a unilateral decision by Spain as the EU team has refused to do it as they see it as diluting the negotiations if lots of mini deals are done.
		
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As I understand it, the UK gave these assurances a few weeks ago.


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## Sweep (Mar 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I seem to remember Hobbit posting about that a couple of thou (or thereabouts) posts ago!

Nothing new there!
		
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Except it was agreed by the Spanish Cabinet today (Friday), so something new there â€œ!â€


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## Sweep (Mar 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Is that his opinion or does he know that for sure?
		
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He was her Chief of Staff. Thatâ€™s a pretty good source. It must have come up in conversation. Maybe the documentary will tell us more.


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## Hobbit (Mar 2, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Except it was agreed by the Spanish Cabinet today (Friday), so something new there â€œ!â€
		
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No it wasn't. It was agreed in the Spanish Cabinet in early January. I was in a meeting mid Jan, along with about 100 other Brits, in which there was an official from the British Consulate, the local Mayor and an official from the Spanish govt. It was announced at the meeting that the Spanish govt had agreed it and it only needed 2 things. 1) to be passed as a Royal Decree, and 2) for the UK govt to reciprocate.

The Royal Decree was passed this week, and we await the UK govt to reciprocate.


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## Mudball (Mar 2, 2019)

So are the Leavers ready for chlorine washed meat from our cousins on the other side of the pond.. hey it is ready to give us a quick trade deal..


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## USER1999 (Mar 2, 2019)

The issue isn't with chlorine washed meat, it is with really poor conditions for raising live stock, combined with poor hygene, camouflaged by chlorine washing. Still don't want it over here though.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 2, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			The issue isn't with chlorine washed meat, it is with really poor conditions for raising live stock, combined with poor hygene, camouflaged by chlorine washing. Still don't want it over here though.
		
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I saw a good explanation today by someone who said the choice is between the US method of putting chlorine on chickens to get rid of the faeces or having stronger EU regulations that mostly prevent faeces getting there in the first place.  Enjoy your KFC....


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## Mudball (Mar 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I saw a good explanation today by someone who said the choice is between the US method of putting chlorine on chickens to get rid of the faeces or having stronger EU regulations that mostly prevent faeces getting there in the first place.  Enjoy your KFC....
		
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Once we overthrow the EU yoke, we can put our stuff wherever we want to.. ðŸ˜°


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So are the Leavers ready for chlorine washed meat from our cousins on the other side of the pond.. hey it is ready to give us a quick trade deal..
		
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That post highlights sad way people have started turning against each other and looking for ways to belittle those who voted differently in a referendum on membership of the European Union. I really feel sorry for the future of our nation if this is what we have become, the problem is not whether we stay or leave but the moral fibre that binds people to accept the will of democracy and bend their will to support its outcome.   

Maybe you could reconsider that post and see that the future will never be perfect but just maybe with some positivity it could be OK.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I saw a good explanation today by someone who said the choice is between the US method of putting chlorine on chickens to get rid of the faeces or having stronger EU regulations that mostly prevent faeces getting there in the first place.  Enjoy your KFC....
		
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The article I read said it was to prevent bacteria that we currently have problems with in our poultry and it is no risk to our health. EU regulations only allow washing of poultry with water which does not remove bacteria like ecolli. I can understand us preventing imports if it's for animal welfare but not this.


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## Old Skier (Mar 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So are the Leavers ready for chlorine washed meat from our cousins on the other side of the pond.. hey it is ready to give us a quick trade deal..
		
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Go well with rump steak.ðŸ˜› Have you seen the back end of cows. ðŸ˜‹


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Once we overthrow the EU yoke, we can put our stuff wherever we want to.. ðŸ˜°
		
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Scary stuff, dropping decent EU standards to accept dodgy cheap USA standards. Beef as well as chicken remember.
I think the ERG/UKIP lot call it taking back control.


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## drdel (Mar 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scary stuff, dropping decent EU standards to accept* dodgy *cheap USA standards. Beef as well as chicken remember.
I think the ERG/UKIP lot call it taking back control.
		
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Really! The FDA have a pretty good record of controlling the USA food chain and medicines: I don't see millions of American dying of chlorine (or other food contamination) induced health issues - the lawyers would have had a field day!

We seem to have adopted the media's need to hype and over-exaggerate everything. I simply don't understand how, all of a sudden, everything involving the EU/Brussels is fantastic yet everything from USA is dreadful - flaming ridiculous.


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## Hobbit (Mar 3, 2019)

Having worked for a company that exported to the USA, their standards are extremely high. What we exported there had to pass far more stringent testing that what went to the EU. 

I don't know whether or not chlorine washing is good, bad or indifferent but with US citizens propensity for litigation, and for that litigation to be in the $millions, I'd be very surprised if all the horror stories are true.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 3, 2019)

Just calm down, and let the facts come out. If there are links to serious health issues they will make their way to the surface.
On the whole I donâ€™t fancy their methods, but I am sure there will be a market in this country for both. Plus if there is a health link then those foods can be tariffed/taxed to meet the shortfall and pay for the health service.

What I resent is the Americans dipping their oar in a UK /EU debate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 3, 2019)

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...sack-failing-grayling-over-33m-ferry-debacle/

Â£33,000,000.00 'fine' for incompetence yet he is still a Tory minister.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...sack-failing-grayling-over-33m-ferry-debacle/

Â£33,000,000.00 'fine' for incompetence yet he is still a Tory minister.
		
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See post #6369


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## Foxholer (Mar 3, 2019)

While I'm happy to have the chlorine wash ensure the final product is free from salmonella (et al) when it leaves the factory, I'm concerned that it could be used to 'cover up' all sorts of poor standard health processes early on! That covers the 'edible' aspect, but there's also the Animal Welfare aspect where US standards are significantly lower than UK's (via EU regs).

And I'm definitely against the use of 'synthetically' adding bulk to beef via hormone injection!

So I'm all for UK maintaining existing (EU) standards!

In any case, I'd like to see labelling on final product indcate where it originates (existing rules aren't tight enough imo) and any other relevant info. That way the consumer (or at least the purchaser) can make their own decision as to which to buy. In the case of chlorine washed Chicken - though not hormone dosed Beef - I'd be happy to see a tariff used as incentive/choice for producers.


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## Mudball (Mar 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That post highlights sad way people have started turning against each other and looking for ways to belittle those who voted differently in a referendum on membership of the European Union. I really feel sorry for the future of our nation if this is what we have become, the problem is not whether we stay or leave but the moral fibre that binds people to accept the will of democracy and bend their will to support its outcome.  

Maybe you could reconsider that post and see that the future will never be perfect but just maybe with some positivity it could be OK.
		
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I agree this is the low point (hence liked your post).   Equally it shows the range of things we have to deal with when we leave.  US wants to us to take chlorine washed chicken - a process that is banned here.  The Chlorine wash itself is not dangerous but it is birds welfare (http://theconversation.com/chlorine...ains-why-us-poultry-is-banned-in-the-eu-81921) .   Equally it is not Project Fear either.   Did Liam Fox not mention last year that we should get over the fear and accept American Chicken as it is cheaper than what we have.   My fear is pretty much that we start lowering our guard to get some quick fixes which opens door to cheaper imports.  In many ways we will replace cheap/unskilled Eastern Europen labour with cheap/untested imports - Chorine was Chicken or hormone injected American beef, Clothes made by Bangladeshi Kids, Vietnamese Pork, Japanese Whale Meat etc. ... all in the name of a trade deal.


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## Hobbit (Mar 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While I'm happy to have the chlorine wash ensure the final product is free from salmonella (et al) when it leaves the factory, I'm concerned that it could be used to 'cover up' all sorts of poor standard health processes early on! That covers the 'edible' aspect, but there's also the Animal Welfare aspect where US standards are significantly lower than UK's (via EU regs).

And I'm definitely against the use of 'synthetically' adding bulk to beef via hormone injection!

So I'm all for UK maintaining existing (EU) standards!

In any case, I'd like to see labelling on final product indcate where it originates (existing rules aren't tight enough imo) and any other relevant info. That way the consumer (or at least the purchaser) can make their own decision as to which to buy. In the case of chlorine washed Chicken - though not hormone dosed Beef - I'd be happy to see a tariff used as incentive/choice for producers.
		
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I'm not that sure that the current EU standards are all they are cracked up to be, or that the UK is following them. Maybe they are or maybe they're not.

My own experiences of meats over here in Spain sees some very differing standards but on the whole there is a world of a difference in quality. An example, we bought some gammon steaks from the butchers in the village. Put the first one in the frying pan expecting it to shrink down as all the water in them, UK-style, comes out. Had to get another frying pan out as it barely shrunk at all, and that's been an ongoing theme out here. Apart from the odd dodgy bit of meat, the quality is way better.


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## Hobbit (Mar 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I agree this is the low point (hence liked your post).   Equally it shows the range of things we have to deal with when we leave.  US wants to us to take chlorine washed chicken - a process that is banned here.  The Chlorine wash itself is not dangerous but it is birds welfare (http://theconversation.com/chlorine...ains-why-us-poultry-is-banned-in-the-eu-81921) .   Equally it is not Project Fear either.   Did Liam Fox not mention last year that we should get over the fear and accept American Chicken as it is cheaper than what we have.   My fear is pretty much that we start lowering our guard to get some quick fixes which opens door to cheaper imports.  In many ways we will replace cheap/unskilled Eastern Europen labour with cheap/untested imports - Chorine was Chicken or hormone injected American beef, Clothes made by Bangladeshi Kids, Vietnamese Pork, Japanese Whale Meat etc. ... all in the name of a trade deal.
		
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Do you honestly think the UK isn't already importing goods from around the world already, many of which are of suspect quality? The UK has a massive, outstanding fine with the EU over imports from China.


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## robinthehood (Mar 3, 2019)

Handle and cook poultry correctly and there is no need to wash it in chlorine.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm not that sure that the current EU standards are all they are cracked up to be, or that the UK is following them. Maybe they are or maybe they're not.

My own experiences of meats over here in Spain sees some very differing standards but *on the whole there is a world of a difference in quality*. An example, we bought some gammon steaks from the butchers in the village. Put the first one in the frying pan expecting it to shrink down as all the water in them, UK-style, comes out. Had to get another frying pan out as it barely shrunk at all, and that's been an ongoing theme out here. Apart from the odd dodgy bit of meat, the quality is way better.
		
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Depends where you buy them from.  Get the Tescos basics range and I imagine there is a fair amount of water in them.  The ones I get from my local farm shop seem pretty much all meat to me.  Fully appreciate that there are many who can not afford to buy from the local farm shop and rely on cheap food to survive.  But I suppose the question is how many of the checks and balances that we currently have, especially around animal welfare, do we want to keep in the name of getting cheaper produce.  Plus I'm struggling to see how opening up our agricultural market to US imports will help our farmers.

And that's without other areas in the 18 pages of T&Cs that I am sure people will interpret as either common sense or an opportunity for the US to take over the NHS, depending on your point of view.  I am sure there is a good deal to be done with the US, but with the current incumbent in the White House, the timing of needing to do one quickly is not ideal.


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## drdel (Mar 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I agree this is the low point (hence liked your post).   Equally it shows the range of things we have to deal with when we leave.  US wants to us to take chlorine washed chicken - a process that is banned here.  The Chlorine wash itself is not dangerous but it is birds welfare (http://theconversation.com/chlorine...ains-why-us-poultry-is-banned-in-the-eu-81921) .   Equally it is not Project Fear either.   Did Liam Fox not mention last year that we should get over the fear and accept American Chicken as it is cheaper than what we have.   My fear is pretty much that we start lowering our guard to get some quick fixes which opens door to cheaper imports.  In many ways we will replace cheap/unskilled Eastern Europen labour with cheap/untested imports - Chorine was Chicken or hormone injected American beef, *Clothes made by Bangladeshi Kids,* Vietnamese Pork, Japanese Whale Meat etc. ... all in the name of a trade deal.
		
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Been happening for years !!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm not that sure that the current EU standards are all they are cracked up to be, or that the UK is following them. Maybe they are or maybe they're not.

My own experiences of meats over here in Spain sees some very differing standards but on the whole there is a world of a difference in quality. An example, we bought some gammon steaks from the butchers in the village. Put the first one in the frying pan expecting it to shrink down as all the water in them, UK-style, comes out. Had to get another frying pan out as it barely shrunk at all, and that's been an ongoing theme out here. Apart from the odd dodgy bit of meat, the quality is way better.
		
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There is a world of difference between supermarket meat and a decent butchers meat. As you say, it doesn't shrink, you need less of it because of this and it has a smell to it. We haven't bought supermarket meat for a while now, it's a false economy.


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## Mudball (Mar 3, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There is a world of difference between supermarket meat and a decent butchers meat. As you say, it doesn't shrink, you need less of it because of this and it has a smell to it. We haven't bought supermarket meat for a while now, it's a false economy.
		
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The only reason we get supermarket rather than butcher is because the supermarket is open when we can go shopping - usually on the way back from work ..


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The only reason we get supermarket rather than butcher is because the supermarket is open when we can go shopping - usually on the way back from work ..
		
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No criticism meant in my post. We buy plenty in supermarkets and convenience is a massive factor. We are lucky in that we found a butchers wholesaler nearby where we go once a month and stock the freezer up. It takes a bit of planning and a good sized freezer but it works well for us. We occasionally have to buy meat from a supermarket when we run out and it is convenient but the difference is marked.


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## Sweep (Mar 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			No it wasn't. It was agreed in the Spanish Cabinet in early January. I was in a meeting mid Jan, along with about 100 other Brits, in which there was an official from the British Consulate, the local Mayor and an official from the Spanish govt. It was announced at the meeting that the Spanish govt had agreed it and it only needed 2 things. 1) to be passed as a Royal Decree, and 2) for the UK govt to reciprocate.

The Royal Decree was passed this week, and we await the UK govt to reciprocate.
		
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Hmmm... possibly a bit of creative reporting from who else but the infamous BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47412708
The article is dated March 1 (Friday) and makes no mention of a Royal Decree and also says â€œEarlier on Friday, the EU rejected calls for an agreement to protect citizens from the UK and the rest of the bloc in the event of a no-deal Brexit.â€
So either the Spanish Cabinet agreed the move on Friday which is clearly inferred or you canâ€™t trust BBC reporting. Who would have guessed?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scary stuff, dropping decent EU standards to accept dodgy cheap USA standards. Beef as well as chicken remember.
I think the ERG/UKIP lot call it taking back control.
		
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Been to the USA numerous times and never had food poisoning.  Had one long weekend in Europe since we've been going stateside and had to get an ambulance & a doctor for Mrs BiM for food poisoning.  Damn those low American standards. 

Top trolling Doom, as per usual.


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## Hobbit (Mar 3, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Been to the USA numerous times and never had food poisoning.  Had one long weekend in Europe since we've been going stateside and had to get an ambulance & a doctor for Mrs BiM for food poisoning.  Damn those low American standards.

Top trolling Doom, as per usual.  

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Got salmonella in Portugal. Never had a problem in the States................................................. probably because I've never been.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Got salmonella in Portugal. Never had a problem in the States................................................. probably because I've never been.

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Usually had steaks at the gp weekend ... nothing came out for a week. Game was â€œfirst to burstâ€ .


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2019)

My Son, his Wife and my three Grandsons live in the USA.  They're still with us.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scary stuff, dropping decent EU standards to accept dodgy cheap USA standards. Beef as well as chicken remember.
I think the ERG/UKIP lot call it taking back control.
		
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They don't fry mars bars.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 4, 2019)

May now bribing English Labour MP's to support her lost cause.
Saying, ' for too long prosperity in the UK has been unfairly distributed '.
Well I wonder what political party was to blame for that.

Brexit seems to have turned the clock back to the dark ages when bribing MP's for votes was commonplace.


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## drdel (Mar 4, 2019)

Over the last 3 years European investment *IN* the UK has doubled !

And, its worth noting Germany, Italy and Spain's peformance has dropped below the neutral benchmark while UK is still positive!


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## Hobbit (Mar 4, 2019)

Just some facts around chlorine decontamination.

First of all, the EU's own scientific division has said that chlorine washing isn't harmful to humans. Secondly, The EU standard is to wash chickens in water.

Why has the EU said no to chlorine washed chickens? Because of the total lack of standards in how the chicken is housed during its lifetime.

The EU relies on the chickens being housed better, and inoculations, to stop cross infection. The US uses chlorine to kill the bacteria.

As an aside, as a Service Manager to a company that had one of the UK's largest frozen food processors as a customer it was eye opening to see huge tubs of chicken carcasses in tubs outside the processing plant with Starlings feeding on them... but at least the water used to wash them will have 'killed' the bacteria and the ammonia used to freeze them would have finished the job

Strangely, the US has very strict regs around the use of ammonia...


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			Over the last 3 years European investment *IN* the UK has doubled !

And, its worth noting Germany, Italy and Spain's peformance has dropped below the neutral benchmark while UK is still positive!
		
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Must admit I'm a little confused about your point here. You saying that when we've been in the EU we have had lots of investment from Europe?  And is that supposed to be a good or bad thing? And is that likely to stop when we are out?  And whilst we have been in the EU our performance is still positive?  Yet we want to leave all that behind? Very confused.


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## drdel (Mar 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Must admit I'm a little confused about your point here. You saying that when we've been in the EU we have had lots of investment from Europe?  And is that supposed to be a good or bad thing? And is that likely to stop when we are out?  And whilst we have been in the EU our performance is still positive?  Yet we want to leave all that behind? Very confused.
		
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Its not confusing, as with anything: IMO  "follow the money" is a pretty good track to adopt. European investors are clearly expecting to make a reliable return in the FUTURE ! Their investments have been made at a time when we have been constantly told the UK outside the EU will be a disaster and risky - they obviously don't share the uncertainty.

If you want a read "https://www.markiteconomics.com/Survey/PressRelease.mvc/1e8eadb61abe40b4b97c3c5655216df9"


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just some facts around chlorine decontamination.

First of all, the EU's own scientific division has said that chlorine washing isn't harmful to humans. Secondly, The EU standard is to wash chickens in water.

Why has the EU said no to chlorine washed chickens? Because of the total lack of standards in how the chicken is housed during its lifetime.

The EU relies on the chickens being housed better, and inoculations, to stop cross infection. The US uses chlorine to kill the bacteria.

As an aside, as a Service Manager to a company that had one of the UK's largest frozen food processors as a customer it was eye opening to see huge tubs of chicken carcasses in tubs outside the processing plant with Starlings feeding on them... but at least the water used to wash them will have 'killed' the bacteria and the ammonia used to freeze them would have finished the job

Strangely, the US has very strict regs around the use of ammonia...

Click to expand...

So in essence the EU regulations seem to try and give the animals some kind of level of welfare whilst they are alive which I assume will cost a bit more? Where as the US doesn't and then hoses them down with chlorine to achieve what I assume is the same end product in terms of chicken on the plate, but it may be a bit cheaper? 

I'm not 100% sure the debate is around if chlorinated chicken will kill people, it obviously will not as as can be seen if you go to the US, the like their fried chicken.  Well it won't poison them but from the size of a lot of them, they may well die from obesity after having access to lots of cheap fried chicken, but that's another matter. Still for me it is down to what measures we are willing to take to get the cheapest food on our plate. Chlorinated chicken, GM crops, again I am sure no one will be poisoned by eating them and it may bring the price down, but yet again we go back to the price of everything and the value of nothing.  Me, I'm happy to pay a bit more for the knowledge that some animal welfare standards have been adhered to, but appreciate other opinions are available.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its not confusing, as with anything: IMO  "follow the money" is a pretty good track to adopt. European investors are clearly expecting to make a reliable return in the FUTURE ! Their investments have been made at a time when we have been constantly told the UK outside the EU will be a disaster and risky - they obviously don't share the uncertainty.

If you want a read "https://www.markiteconomics.com/Survey/PressRelease.mvc/1e8eadb61abe40b4b97c3c5655216df9"
		
Click to expand...

So the fact that the pound has weakened meaning overseas investors can buy more property and more of our companies is a good thing for a newly independent Britain?  We will own less and less of our infrastructure and be more and more reliant on overseas ownership and that is taking back control? What do we do when we have nothing left to sell off to foreign investors?  Nope, still confused as how this will help us thrive in the future other than being the place to go for  foreign investors wanting to buy some stuff up relatively cheap.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So the fact that the pound has weakened meaning overseas investors can buy more property and more of our companies is a good thing for a newly independent Britain?  We will own less and less of our infrastructure and be more and more reliant on overseas ownership and that is taking back control? What do we do when we have nothing left to sell off to foreign investors?  Nope, still confused as how this will help us thrive in the future other than being the place to go for  foreign investors wanting to buy some stuff up relatively cheap.
		
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Why do you only post negatives about the UK, do you dislike our country or is it liberal/trendy to do so?   I can understand you having some Brexit concerns but please get a sense of balance.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you only post negatives about the UK, do you dislike our country or is it liberal/trendy to do so?   I can understand you having some Brexit concerns but please get a sense of balance.
		
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Brexit Briton eh, don't dare suggest that selling off all our assets to the highest bidder is maybe not the best way to take back control as it means you are lefty liberal who hates your country.... Happy to hear any reasoned arguments why it is a good thing to our long term prospects.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 4, 2019)

Didn't realise that leaving would include losing the choice of what I eat... Fairly certain no one will be force fed anything they've no desire to consume...


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## Sweep (Mar 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you only post negatives about the UK, do you dislike our country or is it liberal/trendy to do so?   I can understand you having some Brexit concerns but please get a sense of balance.
		
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â€œEngland is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman.â€

George Orwell, 1941.


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## Sweep (Mar 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So the fact that the pound has weakened meaning overseas investors can buy more property and more of our companies is a good thing for a newly independent Britain?  We will own less and less of our infrastructure and be more and more reliant on overseas ownership and that is taking back control? What do we do when we have nothing left to sell off to foreign investors?  Nope, still confused as how this will help us thrive in the future other than being the place to go for  foreign investors wanting to buy some stuff up relatively cheap.
		
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When you say the Pound has weakened, can you say against what and when?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Brexit Briton eh, don't dare suggest that selling off all our assets to the highest bidder is maybe not the best way to take back control as it means you are lefty liberal who hates your country.... Happy to hear any reasoned arguments why it is a good thing to our long term prospects.
		
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So the reason the pound has been devalued is to allow ALL our assets to be disposed of in an auction and that's why you decry anything British and praise anything EU.  Well thanks for clearing that one up.   ðŸ™„


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## drdel (Mar 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So the fact that the pound has weakened meaning overseas investors can buy more property and more of our companies is a good thing for a newly independent Britain?  We will own less and less of our infrastructure and be more and more reliant on overseas ownership and that is taking back control? What do we do when we have nothing left to sell off to foreign investors?  Nope, still confused as how this will help us thrive in the future other than being the place to go for  foreign investors wanting to buy some stuff up relatively cheap.
		
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The 'investors' are Betting on getting a better ROI  than elsewhere and, instrinsicly expect the capital value to rise. They could have backed any where else e.g. Germany,  France and USA but chose the UK : these are not emotional decisions, unlike most of the thread's posts.

Some will be currency speculators,  but not all.


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## User62651 (Mar 4, 2019)

Sweep said:



			When you say the Pound has weakened, can you say against what and when?
		
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Don't think you said what timeframe but since this is a Brexit thread - graph shows last 3 year picture -  Â£ bombed against dollar and euro because of referendum result june 2016, was already falling steadily in the lead up to the referendum. Hasn't really moved since June 16 and well down on April 2015. Appears to have rallied a little of late.

Is that not overall weakening?

Pros and cons of strong currency when you're trying to buy or sell from/to overseas but think most people would prefer their currency be a stronger one than a weaker one?





Also - Wondering if this article applies to some on here - up at 6am..... ready to argue!
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...ns-it-or-if-its-just-a-wind-up-20190227182976


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## drdel (Mar 4, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Don't think you said what timeframe but since this is a Brexit thread - graph shows last 3 year picture -  Â£ bombed against dollar and euro because of referendum result june 2016, was already falling steadily in the lead up to the referendum. Hasn't really moved since June 16 and well down on April 2015. Appears to have rallied a little of late.

Is that not overall weakening?

Pros and cons of strong currency when you're trying to buy or sell from/to overseas but think most people would prefer their currency be a stronger one than a weaker one?

View attachment 26701



Also - Wondering if this article applies to some on here - up at 6am..... ready to argue!
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...ns-it-or-if-its-just-a-wind-up-20190227182976

Click to expand...

China has kept their currency 'weak' on purpose!


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## Hobbit (Mar 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So the fact that the pound has weakened meaning overseas investors can buy more property and more of our companies is a good thing for a newly independent Britain?  We will own less and less of our infrastructure and be more and more reliant on overseas ownership and that is taking back control? What do we do when we have nothing left to sell off to foreign investors?  Nope, still confused as how this will help us thrive in the future other than being the place to go for  foreign investors wanting to buy some stuff up relatively cheap.
		
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Can you give me the lottery numbers too? Some Remainers are saying that there'll be no foreign investment but you're saying there will be...

You will be right, to a certain extent, but painting it the way you have is just lazy and satisfies your argument, whether its true or not...




Sweep said:



			When you say the Pound has weakened, can you say against what and when?
		
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Immediately prior to the vote, literally 2 weeks before, the Â£ was at â‚¬1.28. This I know as an absolute as I moved the purchase price of our villa over here in Spain a couple of weeks early just in case the result 'tanked' the Â£. If I'd waited a month I would have had to move an extra Â£8k to cover the drop in the Â£.

The Â£ is now trading at â‚¬1.16, the highest its been in close on a year.

Simply put, the Â£ is 10% down on where it was almost 3 years ago.

I find it a little odd that you are being so blinkered about something so obvious. You're not Hogan in disguise are you?


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## Foxholer (Mar 4, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Hmmm... possibly a bit of creative reporting from who else but the infamous BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47412708
The article is dated March 1 (Friday) and makes no mention of a Royal Decree and also says â€œEarlier on Friday, the EU rejected calls for an agreement to protect citizens from the UK and the rest of the bloc in the event of a no-deal Brexit.â€
So either the Spanish Cabinet agreed the move on Friday which is clearly inferred or you canâ€™t trust BBC reporting. Who would have guessed?
		
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Or perhaps it's neither! And you may be interpreting the article in a way fashioned by your own views (or bias!).

Spanish legislation doesn't work quite that same way that UK legislation does. 

It's highly likely that the Cabinet *indicated *they would support (or maybe even proposed!) a (Royal) Decree on the subject some time ago - which is how Hobbit was appraised of it in Jan.
The EU rejection of a 'No Deal' protection happened on Friday. This either triggered the presentation of the Royal Decree to Cabinet or was strangely coincidental. Spanish Cabinet agreed the RD. A Royal Decree greatly shortens to 'implementation' process.

As for the Beeb's reporting.... It might not have explained the entire process - the info Hobbit was provided may not have been formalised at that stage - or may either not have dug deep enough to have found the entire story or that part may have been edited out/not included because of 'irrelevance'.


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## Foxholer (Mar 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			Really! The FDA have a pretty good record of controlling the USA food chain and medicines: I don't see millions of American dying of chlorine (or other food contamination) induced health issues - the lawyers would have had a field day!
...
		
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There are certainly cases of Salmonella etc documented! https://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/reading-07-18/index.html
https://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/index.html 1.2 million instances;23000 hospitalisations; 450 deaths! So not insignificant, even if not all caused by infected Poultry!

As others have pointed out, UK's (following EU) regs take the approach that preventing the existence of Salmonella etc. is better all round that killing the bug in infected birds!


drdel said:



			...
*over-exaggerate
...*

Click to expand...




drdel said:



			...
 I simply don't understand how, all of a sudden,* everything *involving the EU/Brussels is fantastic yet everything from USA is dreadful - flaming ridiculous.
		
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You appear to be guilty of exaggeration in your own argument!

Not everything emanating from EU/Brussels is 'fantastic' and not everything from USA is dreadful! 

But there's obviously a significant group, myself included, who prefer the UK/EU way(s) rather than the US one(s). 

Same applies to GM products, but that's not for (my) health reasons.

And I'm definitely against injecting cattle with (growth) hormones!


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## Foxholer (Mar 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Can you give me the lottery numbers too? Some Remainers are saying that there'll be no foreign investment but you're saying there will be...

You will be right, to a certain extent, but painting it the way you have is just lazy and satisfies your argument, whether its true or not...
		
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Remember what happened to the FTSE (it rose markedly due to 'foreign investment') immediately after Referendum and fall of the Pound! So there already has been - which 'proves' HK's 'lazy' argument!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So the fact that the pound has weakened meaning overseas investors can buy more property and more of our companies is a good thing for a newly independent Britain?  We will own less and less of our infrastructure and be more and more reliant on overseas ownership and that is taking back control? What do we do when we have nothing left to sell off to foreign investors?  Nope, still confused as how this will help us thrive in the future other than being the place to go for  foreign investors wanting to buy some stuff up relatively cheap.
		
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First they came for our football clubs...â€¦â€¦â€¦...


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## SocketRocket (Mar 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			First they came for our football clubs...â€¦â€¦â€¦...

Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:



			First they came for our football clubs...â€¦â€¦â€¦...

Click to expand...

And prevented them from closing but then again Doom they are foreigners so we should be careful of what they're up to ðŸ™„


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## Sweep (Mar 4, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Don't think you said what timeframe but since this is a Brexit thread - graph shows last 3 year picture -  Â£ bombed against dollar and euro because of referendum result june 2016, was already falling steadily in the lead up to the referendum. Hasn't really moved since June 16 and well down on April 2015. Appears to have rallied a little of late.

Is that not overall weakening?

Pros and cons of strong currency when you're trying to buy or sell from/to overseas but think most people would prefer their currency be a stronger one than a weaker one?

View attachment 26701



Also - Wondering if this article applies to some on here - up at 6am..... ready to argue!
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...ns-it-or-if-its-just-a-wind-up-20190227182976

Click to expand...




maxfli65 said:



			Don't think you said what timeframe but since this is a Brexit thread - graph shows last 3 year picture -  Â£ bombed against dollar and euro because of referendum result june 2016, was already falling steadily in the lead up to the referendum. Hasn't really moved since June 16 and well down on April 2015. Appears to have rallied a little of late.

Is that not overall weakening?

Pros and cons of strong currency when you're trying to buy or sell from/to overseas but think most people would prefer their currency be a stronger one than a weaker one?

View attachment 26701



Also - Wondering if this article applies to some on here - up at 6am..... ready to argue!
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...ns-it-or-if-its-just-a-wind-up-20190227182976

Click to expand...

i didnâ€™t say what time frame. Thatâ€™s what I was asking. And thatâ€™s because itâ€™s all relative. Everyone was concerned about the GBP bombing after the referendum but actually it just returned to where it was the previous February. Possibly because everyone thought we would vote to remain and bought into the GBP and raised its value probably unrealistically.
You can basically make the currency markets say what you want them to say, based on the dates you make comparisons. They often donâ€™t make a great deal of sense anyway. For example GBP v EUR has risen over the past couple of weeks.


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## Sweep (Mar 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Or perhaps it's neither! And you may be interpreting the article in a way fashioned by your own views (or bias!).

Spanish legislation doesn't work quite that same way that UK legislation does.

It's highly likely that the Cabinet *indicated *they would support (or maybe even proposed!) a (Royal) Decree on the subject some time ago - which is how Hobbit was appraised of it in Jan.
The EU rejection of a 'No Deal' protection happened on Friday. This either triggered the presentation of the Royal Decree to Cabinet or was strangely coincidental. Spanish Cabinet agreed the RD. A Royal Decree greatly shortens to 'implementation' process.

As for the Beeb's reporting.... It might not have explained the entire process - the info Hobbit was provided may not have been formalised at that stage - or may either not have dug deep enough to have found the entire story or that part may have been edited out/not included because of 'irrelevance'.
		
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There are a lot of â€œmayâ€™sâ€œ and â€œmightâ€™sâ€ in your response. The end result is that you donâ€™t actually know, do you?
 Me? I just read the article and interpreted that the decision was made by the Spanish Cabinet on Friday March 1. No bias. I donâ€™t live in Spain. I am not sure where you think my bias was coming from. If we didnâ€™t have Hobbit telling us different I think we would have all taken from the article that the Spanish Cabinet made the decision on Friday.
For or against Brexit, if the Spanish Cabinet didnâ€™t make the decision on Friday then the way this was reported skews the story.


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## Foxholer (Mar 4, 2019)

Sweep said:



			There are a lot of â€œmayâ€™sâ€œ and â€œmightâ€™sâ€ in your response. The end result is that you donâ€™t actually know, do you?
Me? I just read the article and interpreted that the decision was made by the Spanish Cabinet on Friday March 1. No bias. I donâ€™t live in Spain. I am not sure where you think my bias was coming from. If we didnâ€™t have Hobbit telling us different I think we would have all taken from the article that t*he Spanish Cabinet made the decision on Frida*y.
For or against Brexit, if the Spanish Cabinet didnâ€™t make the decision on Friday then the way this was reported skews the story.
		
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Indeed, plenty of 'might/mays'. That's because I don't simply 'interpret' what I read according to _my _bias and turn into 'facts'. If there's other evidence that conflicts, or even clarifies, I'm likely to consider that too. Remember this whole 'conversation' stemmed from my 'nothing new' response to your (correct) statement that Spanish Cabinet had *approved* the move on Friday.

Note the subtle difference between the bits in bold ('made the decision' is not the same as 'approved'! That could easily be described as 'creative reporting' on your part!).  I strongly suspect that, as per Hobbit's post, the *decision* was made in early Jan (or earlier), announced to ex-pat Brits in meetings, like the ones Hobbit heard about it in, in mid Jan and Royal Decree prepared for and held until Spanish Parliamentary *approval* was required - which was as soon as EU quashed the 'No Deal' 'deal'.

Btw. I'm bored with this conversation! My initial input was simply to note (and point to) the fact that it was 'not new' because Hobbit had posted that that had already been agreed/decided. If you want to argue whether it was new or not, Hobbit is the one to have the conversation with, not me!



Sweep said:



			For or against Brexit, if the Spanish Cabinet didnâ€™t make the decision on Friday then the way this was reported skews the story.
		
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Twaddle! The report was perfectly correct!

Update: Just found this article/blog that - precise dates notwithstanding - confirms pretty much all of my above post! https://www.janetanscombe.com/news/brexit-negotiations-affecting-british-nationals-in-tenerife.html


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## spongebob59 (Mar 5, 2019)

Seems to be a lot of sense  here

https://www.conservativehome.com/pl...-article-50-than-to-accept-mays-bad-deal.html


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## spongebob59 (Mar 5, 2019)

not so much this :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/04/europe-brexit-uk


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## Sweep (Mar 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, plenty of 'might/mays'. That's because I don't simply 'interpret' what I read according to _my _bias and turn into 'facts'. If there's other evidence that conflicts, or even clarifies, I'm likely to consider that too. Remember this whole 'conversation' stemmed from my 'nothing new' response to your (correct) statement that Spanish Cabinet had *approved* the move on Friday.

Note the subtle difference between the bits in bold ('made the decision' is not the same as 'approved'! That could easily be described as 'creative reporting' on your part!).  I strongly suspect that, as per Hobbit's post, the *decision* was made in early Jan (or earlier), announced to ex-pat Brits in meetings, like the ones Hobbit heard about it in, in mid Jan and Royal Decree prepared for and held until Spanish Parliamentary *approval* was required - which was as soon as EU quashed the 'No Deal' 'deal'.

Btw. I'm bored with this conversation! My initial input was simply to note (and point to) the fact that it was 'not new' because Hobbit had posted that that had already been agreed/decided. If you want to argue whether it was new or not, Hobbit is the one to have the conversation with, not me!


Twaddle! The report was perfectly correct!

Update: Just found this article/blog that - precise dates notwithstanding - confirms pretty much all of my above post! https://www.janetanscombe.com/news/brexit-negotiations-affecting-british-nationals-in-tenerife.html

Click to expand...

This whole conversation was indeed started by your â€œnothing newâ€ comment followed by your ubiquitous and incorrect exclamation mark. Your reply and comment were unnecessary, unhelpful added nothing. Basically just another failed attempt at making yourself look clever. And then it turned out there was something new, in the EUâ€™s decision, so your comment was wrong as well.
Again, I really donâ€™t know where you are getting the idea that there was bias in my view of the BBC report. It doesnâ€™t affect me. I donâ€™t live in Spain. I have no relatives who live in Spain. I donâ€™t see that it serves either the leave or remain side. It was just a post outlining what I read in the report. Thatâ€™s it. Nothing more. You chose to jump on it. Hobbit said it differed from his knowledge and he is affected as he does live in Spain.
Now, IF the BBC report is incorrect and that no moves were made in Spain on Friday, then the report is absolutely trying to give the false impression of a split between Brussels and Madrid, on the day the EU announced their move. If you cannot see that, then you should address your own bias.
As for being bored with the conversation, you are not the only one. I am often bored by your conversations. If you donâ€™t want to get embroiled in such discussions I suggest you donâ€™t jump on every uncontroversial and unbiased post to try to boost your own ego.


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## Foxholer (Mar 5, 2019)

Sweep said:



			This whole conversation was indeed started by your â€œnothing newâ€ comment followed by your ubiquitous and incorrect exclamation mark. Your reply and comment were unnecessary, unhelpful added nothing. Basically just another failed attempt at making yourself look clever. And then it turned out there was something new, in the EUâ€™s decision, so your comment was wrong as well.
Again, I really donâ€™t know where you are getting the idea that there was bias in my view of the BBC report. It doesnâ€™t affect me. I donâ€™t live in Spain. I have no relatives who live in Spain. I donâ€™t see that it serves either the leave or remain side. It was just a post outlining what I read in the report. Thatâ€™s it. Nothing more. You chose to jump on it. Hobbit said it differed from his knowledge and he is affected as he does live in Spain.
Now, IF the BBC report is incorrect and that no moves were made in Spain on Friday, then the report is absolutely trying to give the false impression of a split between Brussels and Madrid, on the day the EU announced their move. If you cannot see that, then you should address your own bias.
As for being bored with the conversation, you are not the only one. I am often bored by your conversations. If you donâ€™t want to get embroiled in such discussions I suggest you donâ€™t jump on every uncontroversial and unbiased post to try to boost your own ego.
		
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Another load of twaddle!


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## Sweep (Mar 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Another load of twaddle!
		
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Dear Foxy,
Get a life.
With love from Sweep x


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## Mudball (Mar 5, 2019)

After the Japanese, BMW is joining in on the Project Fear by saying it may shift Mini and engine work out of UK.   The last time i heard the Brexit Bandwagon telling everyone that the Germans will want a quick deal as they want to sell us car.  Their assertion may be true.  The Germans want to sell us their fancy cars - just dont want to build them here.  

https://news.sky.com/story/bmw-may-shift-mini-and-engine-work-from-uk-in-no-deal-brexit-11655739

Hours after the news broke and be carried by major publications, the Torygraph is still not carrying the news.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 5, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47457219


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## adam6177 (Mar 5, 2019)

How many times over the last 40 years have companies "considered" their presence in the UK? I'm going to guess that it's more than a couple.

But the BMW/Toyota "story" is relevant because it fits an agenda.  How many car manufacturers have changed their production ideas and locations out of the UK whilst we've been in the EU.....


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## Sweep (Mar 5, 2019)

I wonder what the reaction would be if you said to the average Canadian that if they want American manufacturers to produce in your country you have to let them run your country, make your laws, open up your borders to any American who wanted to live in Canada and you wonâ€™t be able to vote in or out the top people in American government.
Or letâ€™s put the same proposition to Kiwis in relation to Australia. Or Pakistan in relation to India. Or Mexico in relation to America. Or anywhere else in the world for that matter.
Yup, a Mini plant (you know, thatâ€™s the car they make with Union Jack roof and Union Jack rear lights) is well worth giving your country away for - said no one, ever.
Make it in Germany and put the German flag on the roof and see if it has the same appeal.


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## Hobbit (Mar 5, 2019)

Spanish Govt has just announced a 9 month extension for Brits needing to change their driving licence to a Spanish one rather than apply for an international driving permit. Yet another unilateral decision by one of the EU27. I wonder if Portugal will follow suit, as they did in January over Residencia and healthcare.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 5, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			How many times over the last 40 years have companies "considered" their presence in the UK? I'm going to guess that it's more than a couple.

But the BMW/Toyota "story" is relevant because it fits an agenda.  How many car manufacturers have changed their production ideas and locations out of the UK whilst we've been in the EU.....
		
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How many does it take to hop on a band wagon before we give it credit?


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## adam6177 (Mar 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			How many does it take to hop on a band wagon before we give it credit?
		
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Only when the last 40 years of company decline/liquidation/hardship has been attributed to being in the EU. How anyone can compare a "what if" scenario to 4 decades of facts is beyond me.


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## Slime (Mar 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47457219

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*Toyota and BMW warn no-deal Brexit could hit UK investment.*

That's the headline ..................... note the word 'could', not would but could.
Well, of course it 'could' hit UK investment just as it 'could' not hit UK investment.

I expect nothing else from our drama hungry media.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 5, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I wonder what the reaction would be if you said to the average Canadian that if they want American manufacturers to produce in your country you have to let them run your country, make your laws, open up your borders to any American who wanted to live in Canada and you wonâ€™t be able to vote in or out the top people in American government.
Or letâ€™s put the same proposition to Kiwis in relation to Australia. Or Pakistan in relation to India. Or Mexico in relation to America. Or anywhere else in the world for that matter.
Yup, a Mini plant (you know, thatâ€™s the car they make with Union Jack roof and Union Jack rear lights) is well worth giving your country away for - said no one, ever.
Make it in Germany and put the German flag on the roof and see if it has the same appeal.
		
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I doubt if they could put a union jack on a car, union flag perhaps, union jacks are for boats.


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## Sweep (Mar 5, 2019)

If I am honest, whilst I care very much about the jobs such companies provide in the UK, that is really all I care about. 
I really regret and indeed resent the fact that these companies feel they can influence what is actually a UK political matter. If you live and / or work in a different country you abide by their laws, political processes and social practices. This is a matter for the people of the United Kingdom and their government, not foreign companies who have seemingly done pretty well out of the people of this country.
They should make their decisions based on the current climate - which is of course what they will actually do - and not threaten things they may or may not do if things donâ€™t turn out how they like.
I donâ€™t actually care what they think about a deal or a no deal. I donâ€™t care whether they are in favour of Brexit or not. I do care about the opinions of my fellow Brits. Because itâ€™s only our opinion that matters in all this.


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## Sweep (Mar 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I doubt if they could put a union jack on a car, union flag perhaps, union jacks are for boats.

Click to expand...

I think you may be getting confused with the Red Ensign and White Ensign. The Union Jack is another name for the Union Flag.


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## Foxholer (Mar 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I doubt if they could put a union jack on a car, union flag perhaps, union jacks are for boats.

Click to expand...

Not since a 1908 Parliament stated â€œthe Union Jack should be regarded as the National flagâ€.

https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/british-flags/the-union-jack-or-the-union-flag/


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## Mudball (Mar 5, 2019)

Sweep said:



			If I am honest, whilst I care very much about the jobs such companies provide in the UK, that is really all I care about.
I really regret and indeed resent the fact that these companies feel they can influence what is actually a UK political matter. If you live and / or work in a different country you abide by their laws, political processes and social practices. This is a matter for the people of the United Kingdom and their government, not foreign companies who have seemingly done pretty well out of the people of this country.
They should make their decisions based on the current climate - which is of course what they will actually do - and not threaten things they may or may not do if things donâ€™t turn out how they like.
I donâ€™t actually care what they think about a deal or a no deal. I donâ€™t care whether they are in favour of Brexit or not. I do care about the opinions of my fellow Brits. Because itâ€™s only our opinion that matters in all this.
		
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No company really cares about country-politics-jobs in general. They could not give two hoots on Brexit or Remain.. they are answerable to their shareholders and their profits. While there is political posturing, the reality is that BMW, Toyota etc are effectively saying that UK may not be the best place for them to maximise profit. 
This unfortunately has a direct impact on thousands of jobs up and down the country and it does not matter if you voted in or out. Every time a company moves out, it has an impact on lives.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47457219

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Why no comment, do have no opinion.


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## Mudball (Mar 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why no comment, do have no opinion.
		
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Just because you have an itch, donâ€™t scratch it


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## Mudball (Mar 6, 2019)

The lefty Beebs did a comparison of Mayâ€™s Strong Towns bribe and they came much lower than EU funding.


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## robinthehood (Mar 6, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The lefty Beebs did a comparison of Mayâ€™s Strong Towns bribe and they came much lower than EU funding.


View attachment 26733

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All the money's going to the nhs I thought...


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## Mudball (Mar 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			All the money's going to the nhs I thought...
		
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She found the magic money tree that was chopped down by Osborne


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## robinthehood (Mar 6, 2019)

Mudball said:



			She found the magic money tree that was chopped down by Osborne
		
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Jeez that 350 a week has to stretch a bit


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## Mudball (Mar 6, 2019)

Here is an idea... make Ole Gunnar SolskjÃ¦r the UK negotiator .. he seems to turn things around .. we will have a deal by the weekend


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## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The lefty Beebs did a comparison of Mayâ€™s Strong Towns bribe and they came much lower than EU funding.


View attachment 26733

Click to expand...

Why cant you uderstand the EU gives us nothing, we are a net contributor so any grants we get are just some of our own money coming back.  Is the concept confusing for you? ðŸ™„


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## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			All the money's going to the nhs I thought...
		
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No its not.  Wake up and stop repeating  this rubbish.


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## Mudball (Mar 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why cant you uderstand the EU gives us nothing, we are a net contributor so any grants we get are just some of our own money coming back.  Is the concept confusing for you? ðŸ™„
		
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Only as confusing as the bit that you have to pay to be part of the club ðŸ˜œ

If you join a club, expect to pay the subs. You may be part of some committees but not others - either way you will have to follow all the rules laid down by all committees. You can protest against some rulings, but still obey them. you have all the rights to leave and join other clubs but then you will have to play by their rules. You may have still have outsanding bar dues at the old club that you need to settle. As part of the membership the club may give you shoes and balls (like EU support for towns). After leaving you still need shoes and balls and you can use your own money to buy them (like Mays strong town fund) but donâ€™t claim that it is superior to old shoes.


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## drdel (Mar 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Only as confusing as the bit that you have to pay to be part of the club ðŸ˜œ

If you join a club, expect to pay the subs. You may be part of some committees but not others - either way you will have to follow all the rules laid down by all committees. You can protest against some rulings, but still obey them. you have all the rights to leave and join other clubs but then you will have to play by their rules. You may have still have outsanding bar dues at the old club that you need to settle. As part of the membership the club may give you shoes and balls (like EU support for towns). After leaving you still need shoes and balls and you can use your own money to buy them (like Mays strong town fund) but donâ€™t claim that it is superior to old shoes.
		
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However in your simple inaccurate analogy you have missed a few but important details. The club (EU) has taken some of our 'membership fees' and, after paying themselves handsomely and without any transparency, has given this cash to other members so they can compete against us while at the same time imposing rules to prevent us joining other 'clubs' and recovering the 'lost' earnings.


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## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Only as confusing as the bit that you have to pay to be part of the club ðŸ˜œ

If you join a club, expect to pay the subs. You may be part of some committees but not others - either way you will have to follow all the rules laid down by all committees. You can protest against some rulings, but still obey them. you have all the rights to leave and join other clubs but then you will have to play by their rules. You may have still have outsanding bar dues at the old club that you need to settle. As part of the membership the club may give you shoes and balls (like EU support for towns). After leaving you still need shoes and balls and you can use your own money to buy them (like Mays strong town fund) but donâ€™t claim that it is superior to old shoes.
		
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"The club may give you shoes and balls..."

Some easy maths.

2017;

UK contributed Â£14bn
UK received Â£5.6bn as a rebate.
UK net contribution Â£8.4bn

EU spent Â£6.3bn on projects in the UK - matched by Â£6.3bn by the UK... its a 50% subsidy on EU projects, which the UK has to match to receive the funding. Â£8.4bn minus Â£6.3bn, the UK actual contribution was Â£2.1bn

There are a number of other funding streams from the EU, e.g. CAP & Eramus, and is again matched by the UK but doesn't run to billions. Its that at this point leaving the EU looks absolutely bl00dy stupid. The UK has averaged a further (unmatched) funding of Â£5.4bn in each of the last 3 years.

THE UK IS ACTUALLY A NET RECEIVER OF EU MONEY (Â£3.3bn). The EU is already paying for the bus.

The financial reason for leaving the EU doesn't add up. Politically, thats whatever people choose.


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## Dando (Mar 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			All the money's going to the nhs I thought...
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## IanM (Mar 7, 2019)

Odd... according to BBC

In 2017 the UK made an estimated gross contribution (after the rebate) of *Â£13.0 billion*. 

so, your figure gross was actually net of rebate...according to the BBC.


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## MikeB (Mar 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			"The club may give you shoes and balls..."

Some easy maths.

2017;

UK contributed Â£14bn
UK received Â£5.6bn as a rebate.
UK net contribution Â£8.4bn

EU spent Â£6.3bn on projects in the UK - matched by Â£6.3bn by the UK... its a 50% subsidy on EU projects, which the UK has to match to receive the funding. Â£8.4bn minus Â£6.3bn, the UK actual contribution was Â£2.1bn

There are a number of other funding streams from the EU, e.g. CAP & Eramus, and is again matched by the UK but doesn't run to billions. Its that at this point leaving the EU looks absolutely bl00dy stupid. The UK has averaged a further (unmatched) funding of Â£5.4bn in each of the last 3 years.

THE UK IS ACTUALLY A NET RECEIVER OF EU MONEY (Â£3.3bn). The EU is already paying for the bus.

The financial reason for leaving the EU doesn't add up. Politically, thats whatever people choose.
		
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Fairytale accounting, so if we are net receivers can you tell us which nations actually are net givers?


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## Foxholer (Mar 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			"The club may give you shoes and balls..."

Some easy maths.

2017;

UK contributed Â£14bn
UK received Â£5.6bn as a rebate.
UK net contribution Â£8.4bn

EU spent Â£6.3bn on projects in the UK - matched by Â£6.3bn by the UK... its a 50% subsidy on EU projects, which the UK has to match to receive the funding. Â£8.4bn minus Â£6.3bn, the UK actual contribution was Â£2.1bn

There are a number of other funding streams from the EU, e.g. CAP & Eramus, and is again matched by the UK but doesn't run to billions. Its that at this point leaving the EU looks absolutely bl00dy stupid. The UK has averaged a further (unmatched) funding of Â£5.4bn in each of the last 3 years.

THE UK IS ACTUALLY A NET RECEIVER OF EU MONEY (Â£3.3bn). The EU is already paying for the bus.

The financial reason for leaving the EU doesn't add up. Politically, thats whatever people choose.
		
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How come this wasn't loudly and clearly broadcast as part of the Remain argument?


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## jp5 (Mar 7, 2019)

Wouldn't have made any difference. Much easier and more alluring to promise unicorns.


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## robinthehood (Mar 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			How come this wasn't loudly and clearly broadcast as part of the Remain argument?
		
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To big to fit on a bus


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## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2019)

MikeB said:



			Fairytale accounting, so if we are net receivers can you tell us which nations actually are net givers?
		
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Really?

Firstly the source is the House of Commons briefing papers, not some rag of a Red Top. Secondly, the extra money, again detailed in those briefing papers, is from the EIB that has negotiated loans from investment banks.

Just as the UK has ran a deficit for years, using money its borrowed, the EU does the same thing. But if you want to question it I suggest you look it up rather than dismissing it out of hand.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 7, 2019)

Hi @*jeremycorbyn* a cross party group of MPs would like to meet you too & tell you all about @*peoplesvote_uk* - itâ€™s the only way out of #*BrexitChaos* oh and itâ€™s also your party conference policy.


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## Foxholer (Mar 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Really?

Firstly *the source is the House of Commons briefing papers*, not some rag of a Red Top. Secondly, the extra money, again detailed in those briefing papers, is from the EIB that has negotiated loans from investment banks.

Just as the UK has ran a deficit for years, using money its borrowed, the EU does the same thing. But if you want to question it I suggest you look it up rather than dismissing it out of hand.
		
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Got a link? This (November 2018) HoC Library Briefing suggests differently! Contribution after rebate (Â£) of 13Bn, 4.1Bn of public sector (matched by UK). 1-1.5Bn 'competitive' funding. So still 7-7.5Bn contribution.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7886


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## drdel (Mar 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			"The club may give you shoes and balls..."

Some easy maths.

2017;

UK contributed Â£14bn
UK received Â£5.6bn as a rebate.
UK net contribution Â£8.4bn

EU spent Â£6.3bn on projects in the UK - matched by Â£6.3bn by the UK... its a 50% subsidy on EU projects, which the UK has to match to receive the funding. Â£8.4bn minus Â£6.3bn, the UK actual contribution was Â£2.1bn

There are a number of other funding streams from the EU, e.g. CAP & Eramus, and is again matched by the UK but doesn't run to billions. Its that at this point leaving the EU looks absolutely bl00dy stupid. The UK has averaged a further (unmatched) funding of Â£5.4bn in each of the last 3 years.

THE UK IS ACTUALLY A NET RECEIVER OF EU MONEY (Â£3.3bn). The EU is already paying for the bus.

The financial reason for leaving the EU doesn't add up. Politically, thats whatever people choose.
		
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While I usually agree with much of what you post I'm sorry but, on this occasion, you need to redo your economics - there's some double counting and most of the stuff you suggest is being 'given' to the UK is either loans or 'grants' with conditions that require proportionate spending with EU members. Also a significant amount of the 'matched' funding is not from UK government but from the UK and International business community.


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## Mudball (Mar 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Got a link? This (November 2018) HoC Library Briefing suggests differently! Contribution after rebate (Â£) of 13Bn, 4.1Bn of public sector (matched by UK). 1-1.5Bn 'competitive' funding. so still 7-7.5Bn contribution.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7886

Click to expand...

You are right (never ashamed to admit).   The Briefing paper brings the figure to around 7-7.5.   

However, unsurprising to add to the confusion, there there is another briefing paper puts the figures of direct funding at 6.3b per year.  
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7847 

I am sure there is a mandarin out there who knows how these numbers add up and what is the real truth.  Otherwise we can always get Ms Abbott on the task


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## Foxholer (Mar 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			You are right (never ashamed to admit).   The Briefing paper brings the figure to around 7-7.5.

However, unsurprising to add to the confusion, there there is another briefing paper puts the figures of direct funding at 6.3b per year.
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7847

I am sure there is a mandarin out there who knows how these numbers add up and what is the real truth.  Otherwise we can always get Ms Abbott on the task
		
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Would the fact that the 6.3Bn in that paper is Euros (not Pounds) have anything to do with the anomoly? According to that report 6.3Bn Euros = about 5.5Bn Pounds. Seems a bit too much of a coincidence to me!
And I suspect that the one I quoted is a later one - the number (7886) is certainly higher than the one you quote (7847).


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## Mudball (Mar 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Would the fact that the 6.3Bn in that paper is Euros (not Pounds) have anything to do with the anomoly? According to that report 6.3Bn Euros = about 5.5Bn Pounds. Seems a bit too much of a coincidence to me!
And I suspect that the one I quoted is a later one - the number (7886) is certainly higher than the one you quote (7847).
		
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i read the first paper and as i said, it shows net contribution at 8 billion-ish.  This only includes the direct rebate and govt funding.  It puts the competitive funding at about 1-1.5b per year.  Then saw the second paper which puts a different spin on it.  BTW, the full reports make better reading than the bite size website

Net-Net, I never claimed that we are receivers - i would not expect UK to be a receiver.  My point was that we cant expect to be part of a club and not pay into it.  Also Maybots bribe to towns also falls way short of what they already get out of the EU.


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## Foxholer (Mar 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			i read the first paper and as i said, it shows net contribution at 8 billion-ish.  This only includes the direct rebate and govt funding.  It puts the competitive funding at about 1-1.5b per year.  Then saw the second paper which puts a different spin on it.  BTW, the full reports make better reading than the bite size website

Net-Net, I never claimed that we are receivers - i would not expect UK to be a receiver.  My point was that we cant expect to be part of a club and not pay into it.  Also Maybots bribe to towns also falls way short of what they already get out of the EU.
		
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Indeed, both confirm, to me, that UK is a net contributer - as I always believed!

There ARE some 'members of the club' who ARE, currently, net 'receivers'! That's recognised and is, I believe, quite reasonable as it is meant to ease the 'normalisation' process for the recent enlargement of the bloc. However, that cost was leaped upon by Brexiteers as a (strong) reason to leave. I see it as 'indirect overseas aid administered by a third party'.

And Yes, May's funding of towns to replace that from EU is pathetically small!


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## patricks148 (Mar 7, 2019)

just been listening to this quite amusing


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 7, 2019)

patricks148 said:








just been listening to this quite amusing
		
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Brexit will fix potholes.  Genius.


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## Mudball (Mar 7, 2019)

patricks148 said:








just been listening to this quite amusing
		
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This was comedy gold...  the caller (while not a representative of all leavers) sums up some of the attitudes that is dividing the country..

The best bit was brexit fixing potholes


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## drdel (Mar 7, 2019)

So Jaguar LandRover has decided to ask customers for a 10% surcharge in the event of a 'no deal'. 

Now I know Porsche has already written to customers with new orders to the same effect but the last time I looked JLR was assembling cars in the UK.  Suppose there were no UK contractors so a significant part of their supply chain is dragging in sub-assembles etc some of these might be subject to import tax. However the proportion of the showroom price incurring WTO tax would (I'd guess) be about a third, max. So your Â£100k Range Rover would only cost JLR another Â£3k to Â£4k at best. 

Nice little earner by the back door!!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			So Jaguar LandRover has decided to ask customers for a 10% surcharge in the event of a 'no deal'.

Now I know Porsche has already written to customers with new orders to the same effect but the last time I looked JLR was assembling cars in the UK.  *Suppose* there were no UK contractors so a significant part of their supply chain is dragging in sub-assembles etc some of these *might* be subject to import tax. However the proportion of the showroom price incurring WTO tax would (*I'd guess*) be about a third, max. So your Â£100k Range Rover would only cost JLR another Â£3k to Â£4k at best.

Nice little earner by the back door!!
		
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Like the fact you state you have a supposition, a might and also a guess in there, but you are sure it would only cost them another 4K at best.  Brexitomics at its best.


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## drdel (Mar 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Like the fact you state you have a supposition, a might and also a guess in there, but you are sure it would only cost them another 4K at best.  Brexitomics at its best.
		
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Don't be a wally, its just a bit of idle banter - I never claimed or pretended great accuracy and openly stated I'd made assumptions. The main point is how JLR a UK assembler claims a 10% hike when importing some items and Porsche demands exactly the same 10% uplift whereas they would be an importer of a finished product !!

I'd respectively suggest you check my numbers and come up with a better quantified challenge. Having spent many years analysing and modelling supply chains I'm willing to bet my 'fag packet' estimate's not far adrift. If you have a more accurate figure then a constructive response might be to share it.


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## USER1999 (Mar 7, 2019)

I thought JLR were relocating to Slovakia with sn EU grant?


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## Mudball (Mar 7, 2019)

Hope this comes true



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2234171810157772


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## robinthehood (Mar 7, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Hope this comes true



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2234171810157772



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Yeah bring on the 350 million a week .


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## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah bring on the 350 million a week .
		
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That got wiped out by the emergency budget and Â£4,500 each family would be worse off immediately after voting leave. ðŸ™„


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## harpo_72 (Mar 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			Don't be a wally, its just a bit of idle banter - I never claimed or pretended great accuracy and openly stated I'd made assumptions. The main point is how JLR a UK assembler claims a 10% hike when importing some items and Porsche demands exactly the same 10% uplift whereas they would be an importer of a finished product !!

I'd respectively suggest you check my numbers and come up with a better quantified challenge. Having spent many years analysing and modelling supply chains I'm willing to bet my 'fag packet' estimate's not far adrift. If you have a more accurate figure then a constructive response might be to share it.
		
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Better check JLRâ€™s reasoning. 
If they mention line stoppages due to poor supply then we could ask all the workers to pack up until the bits and bobs arrive.... without pay.


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## Foxholer (Mar 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Don't be a wally, its just a bit of idle banter...
		
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Only if you get pulled up on it!

Otherwise it possibly 'dangerous propoganda'. Especially in your case as (at least to me, supported by the last para of your post) you are someone with fairly extensive knowledge in the area albeit with a different emphasis on the pros and cons of 'membership of the club'. 



drdel said:



			... I never claimed or pretended great accuracy and openly stated I'd made assumptions. The main point is how JLR a UK assembler claims a 10% hike when importing some items and Porsche demands exactly the same 10% uplift whereas they would be an importer of a finished product !!....

...Having spent many years analysing and modelling supply chains I'm willing to bet my 'fag packet' estimate's not far adrift...
		
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Indeed, that figure jarred with me too!

However, cost to build and pricing are not particularly related, especially on luxury cars! It's more associated with 'what the market will stand'!

Probably of (significantly?) greater concern to the likes of JLR and BMW (for Minis) is the cost of reorganising construction/supply chains to reduce/eliminate tarrifs involved in the likes of the previously documented travels of crankshafts to and from different plants for the various processes involved.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Only if you get pulled up on it!

Otherwise it possibly 'dangerous propoganda'. Especially in your case as (at least to me, supported by the last para of your post) you are someone with fairly extensive knowledge in the area albeit with a different emphasis on the pros and cons of 'membership of the club'.


Indeed, that figure jarred with me too!

However, cost to build and pricing are not particularly related, especially on luxury cars! It's more associated with 'what the market will stand'!

Probably of (significantly?) greater concern to the likes of JLR and BMW (for Minis) is the cost of reorganising construction/supply chains to reduce/eliminate tarrifs involved in the likes of the previously documented travels of crankshafts to and from different plants for the various processes involved.
		
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As I showed in that previous thread the machining operations on a crankshaft are made on a single machine in one process.


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## drdel (Mar 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Only if you get* pulled up* on it!

Otherwise it possibly '*dangerous propoganda'*. Especially in your case as (at least to me, supported by the last para of your post) you are someone with fairly extensive knowledge in the area albeit with a different emphasis on the pros and cons of 'membership of the club'.


Indeed, that figure jarred with me too!

However, *cost to build* and pricing are not particularly related, especially on luxury cars! It's more associated with 'what the market will stand'!

Probably of (significantly?) greater concern to the likes of JLR and BMW (for Minis) is the cost of reorganising construction/supply chains to reduce/eliminate tarrifs involved in the likes of the previously documented travels of *crankshafts *to and from different plants for the various processes involved.
		
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OK Foxy - you're pulling me up but fail to state where the error is and level of inaccuracy !

"...dangerous propaganda..." - you flatter that the post has any real significance so a bit OTT I'd say and again I stated its an estimate with assumptions so don't see how its either dangerous or propaganda.

If you want to get picky, the claim by JLR was based on their concern that the *cost *would be impacted. I merely took them at their word and in any case allowed a retail price, CAPEX and assembly split to allow for using retail/market pricing - we could break it down but we'd all be even more bored than we are! You might want to recognise that many Automotive businesses like many global operators use Freeports etc as notional points in the supply chain (SC) to adjust profitability in different countries for prudent tax management. This distorts the nodes in the SC and places where processes take place to _influence_ where value is added.

Just to add to the pedantry: you referred to BMW's  "...crankshafts...." - I believe the actual SC issue was related to camshafts - a completely different engine component and sometimes not OE produced!

I bigger worry to me is that MP seem devoid of any knowledge of how international manufacturing actually works yet they proclaim the disaster of Brexit to be around the corner. Barnier seems happy to dig in his heels and put many thousands of German workers at risk with his demand that we divorce future trade from the withdrawal deal. We even have the *fear* about food supplies when 90% of UK food imports come from outside the EU - there's "dangerous propaganda" for you.


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## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Barnier seems happy to dig in his heels and put many thousands of German workers at risk with his demand that we divorce future trade from the withdrawal deal. We even have the *fear* about food supplies when 90% of UK food imports come from outside the EU - there's "dangerous propaganda" for you.
		
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Apologies for cropping your post - something I hate. I hope Barnier et al do get their act together on trade. Â£537 million of veg and fruit come out of Murcia region for the UK. That's a 'ell of a lot of melons rotting on the docks.


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## Foxholer (Mar 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			OK Foxy - you're pulling me up but fail to state where the error is and level of inaccuracy !

"...dangerous propaganda..." - you flatter that the post has any real significance so a bit OTT I'd say and again I stated its an estimate with assumptions so don't see how its either dangerous or propaganda.
...
		
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The word 'possibly' was significant! Shame you dropped it. And the 'dangerous propaganda' term had quotes around it deliberately!



drdel said:



			...
Just to add to the pedantry: you referred to BMW's  "...crankshafts...." - I believe the actual SC issue was related to camshafts - a completely different engine component and sometimes not OE produced!
....
		
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Doh! I agree, it was camshaft, not crankshaft. 5/8ths right but wrong end of the exploding bit?



drdel said:



			...
I bigger worry to me is that MP seem devoid of any knowledge of how international manufacturing actually works yet they proclaim the disaster of Brexit to be around the corner. Barnier seems happy to dig in his heels and put many thousands of German workers at risk with his demand that we divorce future trade from the withdrawal deal. We even have the *fear* about food supplies when 90% of UK food imports come from outside the EU - there's "dangerous propaganda" for you.
		
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Indeed! But we know how politicians (and the media) work, think (or not) and act/speak so can apply salt appropriately![/QUOTE]


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## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2019)

I read an article that explained how the European Withdraw Act is now law with Royal Ascent and can only be changed by another Act that cancels it. Such an act needs to pass through all stages of debate and commitee in both the Commons and House of Lords and be passed by vote.  It would also be open to amendments that woud also need to selected, debated and voted on, the article suggested there is no possible way this type of change could happen by Brexit day which is fixed by law. I am not sure if an extension to article 50 would change the legal leave date.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2019)

The current 'Deal' on offer is really Bad for us IMO and probably engineered to be so to manipulate us staying in the EU.

If Remainers feel  happy about us staying then have they looked at the Lisbon Treaty due to take full effect in a few years and the changes it will enforce on member states.  Take a look at them and see if remaining is what you really want.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The current 'Deal' on offer is really Bad for us IMO and probably engineered to be so to manipulate us staying in the EU.

If Remainers feel  happy about us staying then *have they looked at the Lisbon Treaty *due to take full effect in a few years and the changes it will enforce on member states.  Take a look at them and see if remaining is what you really want.
		
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Has anyone got any links to what the Lisbon Treaty will actually mean. There are all sorts of posts on social media with "scare stories" about being forced to join the Euro by 2022, supremacy of EU courts, loss of veto, loss of control of fishing grounds, loss of the rebate and many more besides but is there somewhere that actually breaks down all the facts about what will actually happen?

I put scare stories in inverted commas because I don't know if they are true or not.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Has anyone got any links to what the Lisbon Treaty will actually mean. There are all sorts of posts on social media with "scare stories" about being forced to join the Euro by 2022, supremacy of EU courts, loss of veto, loss of control of fishing grounds, loss of the rebate and many more besides but is there somewhere that actually breaks down all the facts about what will actually happen?

I put scare stories in inverted commas because I don't know if they are true or not.
		
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If you google it you will find some official links.


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## robinthehood (Mar 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The current 'Deal' on offer is really Bad for us IMO and probably engineered to be so to manipulate us staying in the EU.

If Remainers feel  happy about us staying then have they looked at the Lisbon Treaty due to take full effect in a few years and the changes it will enforce on member states.  Take a look at them and see if remaining is what you really want.
		
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Project fear


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## SocketRocket (Mar 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Project fear
		
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Having in investigated it further it does appear that these articles are incorrect or exaggerated.  My apologies.


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## Mudball (Mar 8, 2019)

So I have an invite to meet some visiting Trade fella who is going to talk about â€˜Invest in Singaporeâ€™. Of the many benefits that Sg now offers to British business is â€˜Easy access to European Market due to recently signed EU-Sg agreementâ€™. That did bring a chuckle ..


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Has anyone got any links to what the Lisbon Treaty will actually mean. There are all sorts of posts on social media with "scare stories" about being forced to join the Euro by 2022, supremacy of EU courts, loss of veto, loss of control of fishing grounds, loss of the rebate and many more besides but is there somewhere that actually breaks down all the facts about what will actually happen?

I put scare stories in inverted commas because I don't know if they are true or not.
		
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Ask yourself if any of it was true  why has it taken this long to suddenly discover that this will happen?  You'd of thought the more rational members of project leave would have been all over it from the start if there was an ounce of truth in it.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087258784001654784


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Ask yourself if any of it was true  why has it taken this long to suddenly discover that this will happen?  You'd of thought the more rational members of project leave would have been all over it from the start if there was an ounce of truth in it.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087258784001654784

Click to expand...

Cheers for that. I did assume that much if not all of it would have been more widely publicised if it had been true but couldn't be bothered to read the whole Lisbon Treaty looking for answers and didn't want to dismiss it out of hand with no evidence.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 10, 2019)

Apparently a Spitfire has been booked by the RAF to parachute Ms May into the Brussels Veladrome should there be a last minute change of mind by the EU.


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## Mudball (Mar 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Apparently a Spitfire has been booked by the RAF to parachute Ms May into the Brussels Veladrome should there be a last minute change of mind by the EU.
		
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Me think all this is grand posturing...  We will have a magic deal and Maybot will be the saviour.

On the otherhand.. have you seen BoJo get ready for the leadership challenge.   He just got a haircut


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 10, 2019)

I think that even with the most inept Tory party ever [well maybees excepting Sir Alex Douglas-Home] Bonkin Mad Boris is still a bridge too far.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 10, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Me think all this is grand posturing...  We will have a magic deal and Maybot will be the saviour.

On the otherhand.. have you seen BoJo get ready for the leadership challenge.   He just got a haircut
	View attachment 26752

Click to expand...

Also Gove has been eerily quiet and nowhere to be seen recently, desperately trying to distance himself from the current omnishambles and ready to ride in as the saviour to fix it all if needed. Plus Javid has been dog whistling to the more hard right of the party to no doubt try and get their votes.  They are all lining up...

Incidentally I've been enjoying the Brexitcast podcast from the BBC recently.  Fully appreciate that as I have recommended it and it is from the BBC will mean certain people will never listen to it in a million years, but I find it very good. You basically have 4 very well connected BBC reporters with both the EU and the UK parliament talking over what might happen and what it all means. In the current one they do admit that no one knows but they do put forwards some interesting perspectives from the point of the EU and the government using their insider knowledge and information from well connected sources.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05299nl


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## User62651 (Mar 10, 2019)

If Commons vote down May's deal again this week and then next day vote down No Deal again (but binding this time), that leaves an extension to Brexit as the only option the govt will consider - is that right? So buy some more time despite nearly 3 years of negotiation, and kick the can down the road. 

Some remainers will call for a 2nd referendum but Govt won't go down that road it seems so that option is ruled out. 

If backstop remains the main reason for no agreement and neither side will budge on that issue and with May reliant upon DUP votes (who will not back an agreement that treats NI separately from rUK), then we're stuck in limbo until another General Election, when parliamentary arithmetic might improve for Conservatives if they can get a modest majority (under a new leader maybe and in light of Corbyn's unelectability) so can get a deal over the line, aren't we? 

So do we wait until 2022 in limbo? Or does May call another GE early and step down beforehand?
If we do have to wait unitl 2022 for another GE, during that time are we still in the EU (because we voted down No Deal and can't get a deal either) by default or are we out? Or somewhere in between? Confusing.

The 2 most obvious resolutions to me are either -

leave with No Deal on 29th March and see what happens  or
have a peoples vote/2nd referendum (would require a few months lead in period though).
Neither looks like it will be on the table after this week's Commons votes though - MPs wont allow No Deal and May won't allow a 2nd referendum.

Is that a fair summary of where we are?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think that even with the most inept Tory party ever [well maybees excepting Sir Alex Douglas-Home] Bonkin Mad Boris is still a bridge too far.
		
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To be honest I think all bets are off, no one knows anymore and what we thought we knew is worth nothing nowadays in the current political climate. So nothing would surprise me.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 10, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			If Commons vote down May's deal again this week and then next day vote down No Deal again (but binding this time), *that leaves an extension to Brexit as the only option the govt will consider - is that right?* So buy some more time despite nearly 3 years of negotiation, and kick the can down the road.

Some remainers will call for a 2nd referendum but Govt won't go down that road it seems so that option is ruled out.

If backstop remains the main reason for no agreement and neither side will budge on that issue and with May reliant upon DUP votes (who will not back an agreement that treats NI separately from rUK), then we're stuck in limbo until another General Election, when parliamentary arithmetic might improve for Conservatives if they can get a modest majority (under a new leader maybe and in light of Corbyn's unelectability) so can get a deal over the line, aren't we?

So do we wait until 2022 in limbo? Or does May call another GE early and step down beforehand?
If we do have to wait unitl 2022 for another GE, during that time are we still in the EU (because we voted down No Deal and can't get a deal either) by default or are we out? Or somewhere in between? Confusing.

The 2 most obvious resolutions to me are either -

leave with No Deal on 29th March and see what happens  or
have a peoples vote/2nd referendum (would require a few months lead in period though).
Neither looks like it will be on the table after this week's Commons votes though - MPs wont allow No Deal and May won't allow a 2nd referendum.

Is that a fair summary of where we are?

Click to expand...

They could vote that down leaving room for a third meaningful vote the week after where Tmay will try and get her deal through yet again.  Also the EU have to agree to the extension and there are reports that they may not agree to an extra 3 months if they think all that will happen is that we will just continue to not get a majority to do anything.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			They could vote that down leaving room for a third meaningful vote the week after where Tmay will try and get her deal through yet again.  Also the EU have to agree to the extension and there are reports that they may not agree to an extra 3 months if they think all that will happen is that we will just continue to not get a majority to do anything.
		
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It's all part of May's/EUs cunning plan. The EU obviously like the deal as it is as they all agreed to it. Therefore if it gets voted down again and No Deal gets taken off the table by the HoC the EU can simply refuse to extend Article 50 and all of a sudden there might be a lot of MPs who will decide that May's deal isn't so bad after all and is certainly a lot better than leaving with No Deal and it gets voted through by default at the third attempt.


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## Mudball (Mar 10, 2019)

Glad to see all the Leavers now indulging in 'Project Fear'..  .. 'Vote for the Deal or else Brexit will be lost forever', 'People will never vote for you again', 'Will of the people'..  
'If you dont vote, Jeremy will be in power'., blah blah blah..

.. everyone knows that the MPs give two hoots to the country but are more focussed on keeping their jobs .. (atleast till the next GE).

Maybot could sink a few ships if she calls for a GE at some point this week.  Catch everyone off guard and also EU will allow a longer extension as the UK situation has changed.  In the meanwhile, country keeps motoring along like a yob on his way home after a few Special brew on a Friday night

She could also withdraw A50 unilaterally.. but nothing changes then either


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 10, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Maybot could sink a few ships if she calls for a GE at some point this week.  Catch everyone off guard and also EU will allow a longer extension as the UK situation has changed.
		
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Wouldn't we automatically leave with No Deal if a GE is called? Parliament would be suspended and the campaigns would start so it wouldn't be possible to hold a vote on May's deal, against a No Deal or for an extension to Article 50 so we would leave by default on 29th March.


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## Old Skier (Mar 10, 2019)

First thing they would have to do is change legislation because as it stands at the moment we are out at the end of March no matter what they pontificate over this week. Looks like some long nights in the chamber.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2019)

As I posted earlier the current position in law is that we leave the EU on the 29th March. The Europiean withdraw bill was given Royal Assent and  was Passed by both houses, a vote in parliament taking no deal off the table will not change things, only another bill that goes through all stages of debate and vote in both houses that recinds the current law and replaces it with something else would stop us leaving.  Passing new law is a lengthy process that cannot be cut short for valid reasons.   This is the way I understand the system works and I  cannot see how it can be bypassed. I am surprised no one is picking up on this.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Glad to see all the Leavers now indulging in 'Project Fear'..  .. 'Vote for the Deal or else Brexit will be lost forever', 'People will never vote for you again', 'Will of the people'.. 
'If you dont vote, Jeremy will be in power'., blah blah blah..

.. everyone knows that the MPs give two hoots to the country but are more focussed on keeping their jobs .. (atleast till the next GE).

Maybot could sink a few ships if she calls for a GE at some point this week.  Catch everyone off guard and also EU will allow a longer extension as the UK situation has changed.  In the meanwhile, country keeps motoring along like a yob on his way home after a few Special brew on a Friday night

She could also withdraw A50 unilaterally.. but nothing changes then either
		
Click to expand...

Isnt it about time you got a bit more grown up about this and stopped this silly mudsliging about Leavers v Remainers and just accepted others have a different opinion, it souds like a kid  calling names in a playground.


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...Passing new law is a lengthy process that *cannot be cut short* for valid reasons....
		
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Wrong! Legislation *can* get (and has got) through The Commons in a single day; likewise through The Lords. Definitely not what is meant to happen (for those 'valid reasons'), so only in emergency and likely needing agreement by Opposition leadership too! 

I don't see it happening in this case.


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2019)

You'll most probably find, giving this Parliaments record, they have forgotten all about any legal requirement.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			First thing they would have to do is change legislation because as it stands at the moment we are out at the end of March no matter what they pontificate over this week. Looks like some long nights in the chamber.
		
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Doesn't sound it's that difficult to do from a legislative point of view if all parties agree to it.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47031312 Politically is a different kettle of fish.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 11, 2019)

That poor old can must be pretty dented and rusty by now, I can't see it lasting another 18 days


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## Leftie (Mar 11, 2019)




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## ColchesterFC (Mar 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You'll most probably find, giving this Parliaments record, they have forgotten all about any legal requirement.
		
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Maybe we could phone Gina Miller and get her to challenge them in court again.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 11, 2019)




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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 11, 2019)

EU going to charge Â£1b a month if Tory party infighting causes a delay to Brexit.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			EU going to charge Â£1b a month if Tory party infighting causes a delay to Brexit.
		
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Isn't that pretty much what our monthly fees are anyway? (Give or take the odd million)

EDIT - from FullFact.org.....

"_Â£350 million_ is roughly what we would pay to the EU budget without the rebate. The UK actually paid closer to Â£250 million a week."

So that's roughly Â£1 billion a month. Doesn't seem extreme for us to continue paying what we're currently paying. I assume that this would also continue during any transition period.


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## USER1999 (Mar 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			EU going to charge Â£1b a month if Tory party infighting causes a delay to Brexit.
		
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And that is enshrined within art 50?


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## IanM (Mar 11, 2019)

Tory delay?  That's a hoot, it's only our PM following orders from Brussels!


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## Mudball (Mar 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Isnt it about time you got a bit more grown up about this and stopped this silly mudsliging about Leavers v Remainers and just accepted others have a different opinion, it souds like a kid  calling names in a playground.
		
Click to expand...

Love it when it is Kettle and Pot time... I only replayed Project Fear being currently played out...  

Either way, telly switched off today, hopefully when i switch it back on around Wed afternoon, all would have been sorted... i will then enjoy a bendy banana for tea


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			i will then enjoy a bendy banana for tea
		
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No chance, according to remainers, we are all going to starve to death.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Wrong! Legislation *can* get (and has got) through The Commons in a single day; likewise through The Lords. Definitely not what is meant to happen (for those 'valid reasons'), so only in emergency and likely needing agreement by Opposition leadership too!

I don't see it happening in this case.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you could read the parliamentary procedure on creating  or changing a law, not an agreement but a law and then explain to me how this can happen in a day.


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## Mudball (Mar 11, 2019)

Those who dont like the Beebs may not like this either.   Interesting opinion from CNN on the Brexit cliff edge and fairly damning on May.   Some may like it others may call it Fake News..

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/09/...-british-politics-opinion-intl-gbr/index.html


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## Sweep (Mar 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



*Glad to see all the Leavers now indulging in 'Project Fear'..  .. 'Vote for the Deal or else Brexit will be lost forever',* 'People will never vote for you again', 'Will of the people'.. 
'If you dont vote, Jeremy will be in power'., blah blah blah..

.. everyone knows that the MPs give two hoots to the country but are more focussed on keeping their jobs .. (atleast till the next GE).

Maybot could sink a few ships if she calls for a GE at some point this week.  Catch everyone off guard and also EU will allow a longer extension as the UK situation has changed.  In the meanwhile, country keeps motoring along like a yob on his way home after a few Special brew on a Friday night

She could also withdraw A50 unilaterally.. but nothing changes then either
		
Click to expand...

I think you will find that true leavers donâ€™t like the deal and wonâ€™t vote for it.


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## Sweep (Mar 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Those who dont like the Beebs may not like this either.   Interesting opinion from CNN on the Brexit cliff edge and fairly damning on May.   Some may like it others may call it Fake News..

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/09/...-british-politics-opinion-intl-gbr/index.html

Click to expand...

Remind me. Is CNN is an American news network? If so why would we care what they think?
And before you ask, no, I didnâ€™t read the link because I donâ€™t care what they think.
This is a matter for the British people and their government. I care about what Americans think of Brexit about as much as they care what I thought of Trump v Clinton.


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## jp5 (Mar 11, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I think you will find that true leavers donâ€™t like the deal and wonâ€™t vote for it.
		
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Would be a mistake for them. Reject Brexit now and they may condemn it forever.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Those who dont like the Beebs may not like this either.   Interesting opinion from CNN on the Brexit cliff edge and fairly damning on May.   Some may like it others may call it Fake News..

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/09/...-british-politics-opinion-intl-gbr/index.html

Click to expand...

Still in the playground then.


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## robinthehood (Mar 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Those who dont like the Beebs may not like this either.   Interesting opinion from CNN on the Brexit cliff edge and fairly damning on May.   Some may like it others may call it Fake News..

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/09/...-british-politics-opinion-intl-gbr/index.html

Click to expand...

People would rather stick their heads in the sand than face up to the mess we are in and admit they were wrong.


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## USER1999 (Mar 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			People would rather stick their heads in the sand than face up to the mess we are in and admit they were wrong.
		
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It is written by a remainer, in remainer sensationaliat style. I couldn't get that deep into the article, as it is the same old opinion, put in the same insulting way. 

Move along, nothing new to see here.


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## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Those who dont like the Beebs may not like this either.   Interesting opinion from CNN on the Brexit cliff edge and fairly damning on May.   Some may like it others may call it Fake News..

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/09/...-british-politics-opinion-intl-gbr/index.html

Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s interesting is it? Itâ€™s an appallingly poor piece of journalism. â€œStop food and medicines...â€

Seriously, are people still hanging their hat on this sort puerile rubbish? Havenâ€™t we all learned enough to have a sensible discussion about the interdependencies of both sides that makes this sort of fantasy not even good bog paper?


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you could read the parliamentary procedure on creating  or changing a law, not an agreement but a law and then explain to me how this can happen in a day.
		
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Or perhaps you could check out this for a precedent! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28305309


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## Mudball (Mar 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Still in the playground then.
		
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Not really.. itâ€™s a mature thing to read more than one news source - sorry if they did not say what you wanted to hear


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Or perhaps you could check out this for a precedent! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28305309

Click to expand...

Like you said, it would need political unity. Any chance of that, no evidence so far.


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Like you said, it would need political unity. Any chance of that, no evidence so far.
		
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As I stated, I don't 'see' it happening in this case! But that clearly demonstrates that legislation *can* get through the Commons in a single day - however dangerous and contrary to 'normal' procedure that might be!

I'm pretty certain that legislation isn't actually required anyway - simply debate and a vote on which option should be taken! Same as when May presented her ill-fated 'deal' in January. And likely to end up with the same result! The decision chart at the bottom of this article demonstrates....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47530505


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## jp5 (Mar 11, 2019)

Angela Eagle: "The minister is asking us to accept that two and a half years after the referendum he is going to give us a few hours to have a look at the deal the PM may or may not conclude sometime overnight."

The state of it....!


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			As I stated, I don't 'see' it happening in this case! But that clearly demonstrates that legislation *can* get through the Commons in a single day - however dangerous and contrary to 'normal' procedure that might be!

I'm pretty certain that legislation isn't actually required anyway - simply debate and a vote on which option should be taken! Same as when May presented her ill-fated 'deal' in January. And likely to end up with the same result! The decision chart at the bottom of this article demonstrates....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47530505

Click to expand...

Can't see we're the flow chart suggest legislation wouldn't be required to overturn previous legislation which is now law? Surely even an extension would require some kind of amendment?


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Can't see we're the flow chart suggest legislation wouldn't be required to overturn previous legislation which is now law? Surely even an extension would require some kind of amendment?
		
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Depends how the original law was worded! From memory, the one regarding the invocation of Article 50 was simply that.

Clauses within Article 50 cover everything needed - including the negotiation/agreement of a 'deal' and/or an extension to the negotiation period! So, given as I described, not necessary to change any Law! 

No law was needed to declare war on Saddam's Iraq on 2003. Blair could have declared war using Royal Prerogative, but proposed a motion for Parliament to debate - though the result was 'non-bnding'! Such motions are normally started with 'This House ....' so gives Government the authority of Commons approval - as opposed to a Law that needs to gop through the formal process of Readings in Commons, then similar in Lords.


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## Mudball (Mar 11, 2019)

To break the monotone..


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## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			As I stated, I don't 'see' it happening in this case! But that clearly demonstrates that legislation *can* get through the Commons in a single day - however dangerous and contrary to 'normal' procedure that might be!

I'm pretty certain that legislation isn't actually required anyway - simply debate and a vote on which option should be taken! Same as when May presented her ill-fated 'deal' in January. And likely to end up with the same result! The decision chart at the bottom of this article demonstrates....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47530505

Click to expand...

Even the BBC link you supplied said the case in  question took weeks not a day and this was when everyone agreed with it. 

They would be amending an existing law (The European Community Withdraw Act) not voting on a proposed international agreement like Mays terrible Withdraw Agreement. If her WA was somehow agreed it would then need to go through the due processes to be enshrined on UK Law which would take some time to enact. The date set in law for the UK to leave the EU would take us past the 29th of March as it would not be agreed by all sides and would also be subject to amendments in both houses.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Depends how the original law was worded! From memory, the one regarding the invocation of Article 50 was simply that.

Clauses within Article 50 cover everything needed - including the negotiation/agreement of a 'deal' and/or an extension to the negotiation period! So, given as I described, not necessary to change any Law!

No law was needed to declare war on Saddam's Iraq on 2003. Blair could have declared war using Royal Prerogative, but proposed a motion for Parliament to debate - though the result was 'non-bnding'! Such motions are normally started with 'This House ....' so gives Government the authority of Commons approval - as opposed to a Law that needs to gop through the formal process of Readings in Commons, then similar in Lords.
		
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Its not invoking article 50 its self that enshrines the leaving  date in law, it's the European Union Withdraw Act that permits it. This went through all stages of Parliament and received Royal Ascent.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			People would rather stick their heads in the sand than face up to the mess we are in and admit they were wrong.
		
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Oh the irony ðŸ™„


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Even the BBC link you supplied said the case in  question took weeks not a day and this was when everyone agreed with it.
		
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Twaddle!
Here's the relevant bit of that link! "...which completed its passage through the lower chamber in one day.". Which is exactly what I stated in post 6530!



SocketRocket said:



			They would be amending an existing law (The European Community Withdraw Act) not voting on a proposed international agreement like Mays terrible Withdraw Agreement. If her WA was somehow agreed it would then need to go through the due processes to be enshrined on UK Law which would take some time to enact. The date set in law for the UK to leave the EU would take us past the 29th of March as it would not be agreed by all sides and would also be subject to amendments in both houses.
		
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Please state exactly what they would be amending in that law! As far as i know, that Act covers all the possible outcomes! In fact, it also covers the requirement for any deal to be ratified by Parliament. And while the proposed Exit Day IS specified, there's also provision for that date to be amended by (Minbisterial) Regulation!

The instant enshrinement of the Withdrawal Agreement into UK law was covered by a separate Act - The European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill 2017-19!

So pretty much ALL of your post was simply twaddle!


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Depends how the original law was worded! From memory, the one regarding the invocation of Article 50 was simply that.

Clauses within Article 50 cover everything needed - including the negotiation/agreement of a 'deal' and/or an extension to the negotiation period! So, given as I described, not necessary to change any Law!.
		
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You may or may not be right, all I can find on Wiki is

... This means that a change in UK law is also required to *stop Brexit*. So, to *stop Brexit*, Article 50 would need to be revoked, and, after that, the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 must be repealed.


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not invoking article 50 its self that enshrines the leaving  date in law, it's the European Union Withdraw Act that permits it. This went through all stages of Parliament and received Royal Ascent.
		
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That law does specify March 29 2019 as Exit Date. But there's also a clause allowing a Minister to amend it by Regulation. 

Article 50 Clause 3 also specifies a default time period (2 years) after notification for 'non-agreed' cessation of treaties unless agreed unanimously by European Council and the Member State.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!
Here's the relevant bit of that link! "...which completed its passage through the lower chamber in one day.". Which is exactly what I stated in post 6530!



Please state exactly what they would be amending in that law! As far as i know, that Act covers all the possible outcomes! In fact, it also covers the requirement for any deal to be ratified by Parliament. And while the proposed Exit Day IS specified, there's also provision for that date to be amended by (Minbisterial) Regulation!

The instant enshrinement of the Withdrawl Agreement into UK law was covered by a separate Act - The European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill 2017-19!

So pretty much ALL of your post was simply twaddle!
		
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 Calling a post twaddle suggests you are unable to engage in debate without resorting to this form of immature behaviour, I would guess its something you reserve for the keyboard and wouldnt do face to face so I will not attempt to discuss anything with you on any subject in future. If you wish to make any further comment to my posts then I think you understand what the reaction will be. Unless you wish to apologise for your behaviour.


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			... This means that a change in UK law is also required to *stop Brexit*. So, to *stop Brexit*, Article 50 would need to be revoked, and, after that, the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 must be repealed.
		
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Correct.


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## Sweep (Mar 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			To break the monotone..

View attachment 26761

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Why have you crossed out the UK on that picture of Europe on your foreign currency?


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## Sweep (Mar 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Calling a post twaddle suggests you are unable to engage in debate without resorting to this form of immature behaviour, I would guess its something you reserve for the keyboard and wouldnt do face to face so I will not attempt to discuss anything with you on any subject in future. If you wish to make any further comment to my posts then I think you understand what the reaction will be. Unless you wish to apologise for your behaviour.
		
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He will be along in a moment exclaiming â€œmore twaddleâ€. Itâ€™s his level.


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Calling a post twaddle suggests you are unable to engage in debate without resorting to this form of immature behaviour, I would guess its something you reserve for the keyboard and wouldnt do face to face so I will not attempt to discuss anything with you on any subject in future. If you wish to make any further comment to my posts then I think you understand what the reaction will be.
		
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Here's some of a definition of 'twaddle'....nonsense, rubbish, balderdash, gibberish, claptrap, blather, blether

That definition seems appropriate when almost (that's possibly being generous) of your post was 'as described'! You've been consistently wrong with virtually every previous statement in this 'conversation'!

And Yes, I'm happy that 'Twaddle!' is stated face to face (in either direction) when appropriate!


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## Sweep (Mar 11, 2019)

I see great drama is afoot. Mrs May jetting off to Strasbourg. Letâ€™s hope they arenâ€™t in Brussels this week. Press conference booked for 9pm.
Not like the EU to go down to the last moment. We would never have guessed that was going to happen.


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## Foxholer (Mar 11, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Why have you crossed out the UK on that picture of Europe on your foreign currency?
		
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Perhaps worth noting that one of the 'corrections' doesn't include Scotland!


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Why have you crossed out the UK on that picture of Europe on your foreign currency?
		
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Always wondered why the UK appeared on a Euro note as it's about the Euro, not Europe.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps worth noting that one of the 'corrections' doesn't include Scotland! 

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Now why on earth have you gone and done that? You're just going to set Doon off. Again.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Here's some of a definition of 'twaddle'....nonsense, rubbish, balderdash, gibberish, claptrap, blather, blether

That definition seems appropriate when almost (that's possibly being generous) of your post was 'as described'! You've been consistently wrong with virtually every previous statement in this 'conversation'!

And Yes, I'm happy that 'Twaddle!' is stated face to face (in either direction) when appropriate!
		
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If someone said I was  talking twaddle in a face to face conversation then they would be met with a reply that would earn me a long ban on this site. 

Your comment Is immature,unnecessary and overused.
Anyhow, not interested in your excuses.


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## Mudball (Mar 11, 2019)

Yipeee.. as per the news wires, May has got a deal.. looks like we are leaving.... (finally)


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Yipeee.. as per the news wires, May has got a deal.. looks like we are leaving.... (finally)
		
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But she had a deal last time and lost by 230 odd votes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 12, 2019)

From what I can see she has just jiggled a few words around to try and fool her thicker MP's into voting for it.
I does not look like anything has been changed to the actual EU agreement.
Happy to be corrected on that.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			From what I can see she has just jiggled a few words around to try and fool her thicker MP's into voting for it.
I does not look like anything has been changed to the actual EU agreement.
Happy to be corrected on that.

Click to expand...

It has reduced the chances of us getting stuck in a backstop but not eliminated the possibility.  Cox will come out and say enough to make it seem acceptable to all but the most ardent brexiteers like Mark Francois who will accept nothing less than a hard Brexit and a law saying that eating croissants and not a full English will result in a prison sentence . Starmer who is also a legal expert (although never trust them remember) has said nothing much has changed.  The government will be spinning it like hell today to try and get the motion passed this evening, the vote will go to the wire and no one knows anything.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2019)

Seems as per the last two posts. It is semantics really. Some nice words but at the end of the day we would still be tied in. As no one seems able to solve or compromise on the border problem I don't see what will change in the near future that could prevent the backstop from kicking in. Once in, never to be released.............

Incidentally, if it does get passed tonight, how long before people pick up on the truly dreadful deal it really is on a whole host of other issues? This has been largely passed over due to the dominance of the border problem.


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## Grant85 (Mar 12, 2019)

It seems that government are still very unlikely to get the deal passed. 

Last night looks like nothing more than an escape route that some MPs could take if they wanted to support the government. But there are too many hard liners involved - including the DUP - who are not going to be inclined to take it. 

Ultimately there is not a solution to the backstop that doesn't involve the UK in the customs union. The plan from May all along is simply to kick this can further down the road and hope that the EU / RoI eventually give in and let them cherry pick what bits of the EU they would like. 

The only possible solutions are; 
* No deal (very unlikely and still creates a border in the Irish sea, government collapses and economy tanks)
* UK in Customs Union indefinitely with regulatory alignment on some or most issues. 
* UK stays in EU

The middle one is effectively Mays deal, but they aren't saying that. And May's plan was probably to renegotiate the EU relationship hoping to create some kind of palatable customs union around GB & Ireland that could possibly be agreed in the future when the parliamentary arithmetic wasn't so reliant on the DUP. 

I have absolutely no clue what is going to happen now. An A50 extension seems inevitable, but to what purpose?

Another referendum may force parliament to get behind one solution or another. But it is still likely to lead to a big political impasse. 
A general election is almost pointless unless someone manages to get a clear mandate and clear majority. Seems that both major political parties are incapable of articulating what a clear mandate would be and likely incapable of getting a clear mandate.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Seems as per the last two posts. It is semantics really. Some nice words but at the end of the day we would still be tied in. As no one seems able to solve or compromise on the border problem I don't see what will change in the near future that could prevent the backstop from kicking in. Once in, never to be released.............

Incidentally, if it does get passed tonight, *how long before people pick up on the truly dreadful deal it really is on a whole host of other issues? This has been largely passed over due to the dominance of the border problem*.
		
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True.  This is only agreeing the very start of the negotiating process and it has driven the country apart, left us deluged under a tsunami of spin, falsehoods and at times outright lies that seems to pass as facts as long as they enhance your increasingly entrenched position (this is a MP , you know, those democratically elected people responsible for shaping the future of this country, someone who should really know better, who reposted an garbage lying article on about the the Lisbon Treaty as fact, deleting the original tweet when it was pointed out that it was all complete garbage, but then refused to admit it was all lies and tried to change the subject)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1104857435670528000
caused most of us to lose what little faith we had in politicians (see previous example) and brought out the worst in many people (see most of this thread).

We still have years of negotiating to come to get an actual trade deal with many countries which will mostly consist of leavers constantly saying '_come on, democratic vote, let's all get behind the UK now, no dissent allowed_' and remainers sulking and posting sarcastic and patronising comments on social media pointing out that is is a stupid idea, saying leavers are thick and refusing to try and understand why more people voted leave in the first place. And in the mean time schools have no money, the NHS is stretched beyond belief, knife crime is rising alarmingly.....Can't wait.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



*It seems that government are still very unlikely to get the deal passed.*

Last night looks like nothing more than an escape route that some MPs could take if they wanted to support the government. But there are too many hard liners involved - including the DUP - who are not going to be inclined to take it.

Ultimately there is not a solution to the backstop that doesn't involve the UK in the customs union. The plan from May all along is simply to kick this can further down the road and hope that the EU / RoI eventually give in and let them cherry pick what bits of the EU they would like.

The only possible solutions are;
* No deal (very unlikely and still creates a border in the Irish sea, government collapses and economy tanks)
* UK in Customs Union indefinitely with regulatory alignment on some or most issues.
* UK stays in EU

The middle one is effectively Mays deal, but they aren't saying that. And May's plan was probably to renegotiate the EU relationship hoping to create some kind of palatable customs union around GB & Ireland that could possibly be agreed in the future when the parliamentary arithmetic wasn't so reliant on the DUP.

I have absolutely no clue what is going to happen now. An A50 extension seems inevitable, but to what purpose?

Another referendum may force parliament to get behind one solution or another. But it is still likely to lead to a big political impasse.
A general election is almost pointless unless someone manages to get a clear mandate and clear majority. Seems that both major political parties are incapable of articulating what a clear mandate would be and likely incapable of getting a clear mandate.
		
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I actually think it will pass.  And we'll end up with a compromise that pleases no one, kind of the inevitable conclusion of the very first phase of a stupid idea that was poorly planned and is increasingly being badly executed.  IMHO of course.


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## Grant85 (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I actually think it will pass.  And we'll end up with a compromise that pleases no one, kind of the inevitable conclusion of the very first phase of a stupid idea that was poorly planned and is increasingly being badly executed.  IMHO of course.
		
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Early days, but I don't think anyone is predicting this will pass tonight.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Early days, but I don't think anyone is predicting this will pass tonight.
		
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You heard it here first


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2019)

The comments seem to be that nothing has really changed but pressure is on. If people change their vote it is for political reasons, not because of the 'revised deal'. Fancy thinking our principled politicians would change their minds just like that .

I believe initial Labour comments are that they will vote against again.

Anyone heard what the new Independent group are doing on this?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The comments seem to be that nothing has really changed but pressure is on. If people change their vote it is for political reasons, not because of the 'revised deal'. Fancy thinking our principled politicians would change their minds just like that .

I believe initial Labour comments are that they will vote against again.

Anyone heard what the new Independent group are doing on this?
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105368336915943424


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2019)

I have a wonderful image in my head of each side having a Steve McQueen / Yul Brynner style method of adding a vote either way throughout the day. No words spoken, just extra fingers going up. More than 7 people though so they will need a lot of fingers


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The comments seem to be that nothing has really changed but pressure is on*. If people change their vote it is for political reasons, not because of the 'revised deal'*. *Fancy thinking our principled politicians would change their minds just like that *.

I believe initial Labour comments are that they will vote against again.

Anyone heard what the new Independent group are doing on this?
		
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Assuming that very few labour will vote for this, there is a train of thought that, assuming Cox gives it his approval, this gives many Tory MPs the opportunity to climb off their high horses when they rejected the last deal and back the deal. As the alternative would be that they could be seen as being complicit in a no deal or a no Brexit as that seems to be the only other alternatives.  I suspect it will come down to the DUP and also how many hard line/bring on a no deal ERGers are willing to gamble on the no deal being the likely alternative, as opposed to parliament taking control if the deal is rejected and the house then says we can't leave with a no deal. As no one has a clue what will happen then.

And you could argue that only reason the whole sodding is happening is for political reasons, mostly Tory party infighting, and not really for the prosperity of the country.  So that ain't going to change now. But other opinions are available.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Assuming that very few labour will vote for this, there is a train of thought that, assuming Cox gives it his approval, this gives many Tory MPs the opportunity to climb off their high horses when they rejected the last deal and back the deal. As the alternative would be that they could be seen as being complicit in a no deal or a no Brexit as that seems to be the only other alternatives.  I suspect it will come down to the DUP and also how many hard line/bring on a no deal ERGers are willing to gamble on the no deal being the likely alternative, as opposed to parliament taking control if the deal is rejected and the house then says we can't leave with a no deal. As no one has a clue what will happen then.

And you could argue that only reason the whole sodding is happening is for political reasons, mostly Tory party infighting, and not really for the prosperity of the country.  So that ain't going to change now. But other opinions are available. 

Click to expand...

Very true. Perhaps this is the slight chink in the door that some need. They can change without, in their eyes, losing face. Plenty will know they have choked but they will spin it the other way. Politics, politics.........


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Very true. Perhaps this is the slight chink in the door that some need. They can change without, in their eyes, losing face. Plenty will know they have choked but they will spin it the other way. Politics, politics.........
		
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Yup, what ever happens today, what ever Cox says is pure political manoeuvring. 

Apparently we are taking back control from the out of touch political elite.  Meanwhile back in the studio we go over to someone who has a massive say in if this vote will pass or not, the man of the people, Jacob Rees-Mogg....


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## Grant85 (Mar 12, 2019)

Assuming there are only a handful of Labour MPs that might support it - and I don't believe that any Brexiteer Labour MPs supported it in January - there is very little chance of it passing. 

If the DUP don't back it, it won't pass. 
If the ERG don't back it, it won't pass. 
If half of the ERG don't back it, it won't pass. 

The Brady amendment which said 'the house supports the withdrawal agreement if the backstop is replaced with alternative arrangements' only passed by 317 to 301. Fairly tight and only leaves room for a handful of MPs who voted for that symbolic motion to abstain or vote against this actual legislation.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Assuming there are only a handful of Labour MPs that might support it - and I don't believe that any Brexiteer Labour MPs supported it in January - there is very little chance of it passing.

If the DUP don't back it, it won't pass.
If the ERG don't back it, it won't pass.
If half of the ERG don't back it, it won't pass.

The Brady amendment which said 'the house supports the withdrawal agreement if the backstop is replaced with alternative arrangements' only passed by 317 to 301. Fairly tight and only leaves room for a handful of MPs who voted for that symbolic motion to abstain or vote against this actual legislation.
		
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I don't believe it will get through, Cox says it significantly reduces the possibility.  This won't do it.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Last paragraph of Cox's advice

_However, the legal risk remains unchanged that if through no such demonstrable failure of either party, but simply because of intractable differences, that situation does arise, the United Kingdom would have, at least while the fundamental circumstances remained the same, no internationally lawful means of exiting the Protocolâ€™s arrangements, save by agreement. _

Think that means nothing much has changed and Paddy power are offering 10 to 1 on that the vote will not pass. Still, I remember that you could have got 8 to 1 on us voting to leave on  the day of the vote and I continually kick myself to this day I didn't have a couple of quid on it. We may well now end up a majority agreeing to not pass the deal, a majority agreeing to not leave with a no deal and a majority agreeing to extend article 50.  So where does that leave us??


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Update, it's now 18 to 1 on that the deal will not pass tonight. 11 to 2 that it will.  I'm tempted......


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Our attorney general is now swearing at Channel 4 news readers on Twitter. This is great entertainment if nothing else.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105379846752854016


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2019)

She's goosed following the release of the legal advice. Time to pack your bags Theresa.

I think it is slightly embarrassing seeing the number of ministers, Vradaker etc saying the deal is different when it plainly is not. They are treating people as though they are utterly stupid (I know, I know, open goal there)


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## ger147 (Mar 12, 2019)

The only way TM's deal doesn't get voted down tonight is if she cancels the vote.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

I'm now predicting article 50 extended for a year and TMay gone by the end of the week.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm now predicting article 50 extended for a year and TMay gone by the end of the week.
		
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Do you think the EU would accept a delay? I suppose if we keep paying in they will be happy.

I hope you are right. I do think when you have a standoff a change of negotiator / manager / leader etc is often what is needed. A new face, not bound down by baggage and red lines. TM has been dreadful full stop but even if not a change may have been required anyway to unlock all of this.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			She's goosed following the release of the legal advice. Time to pack your bags Theresa.

*I think it is slightly embarrassing seeing the number of ministers, Vradaker etc saying the deal is different when it plainly is not.* They are treating people as though they are utterly stupid (I know, I know, open goal there)
		
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I think it was an attempt at a coordinated effort by the government and the EU to spin it as such. Possibly TMay saying to the EU that this is my last chance and if I fail you'll be dealing with someone else, possibly more eurosceptic, so throw me a bone here. The EU have kind of played along but I expect that will crack in the next few days once it gets voted down. Trouble is that there is a high percentage of lawyers in parliament so they will see through that pretty quickly.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



*Do you think the EU would accept a delay?* I suppose if we keep paying in they will be happy.

I hope you are right. I do think when you have a standoff a change of negotiator / manager / leader etc is often what is needed. A new face, not bound down by baggage and red lines. TM has been dreadful full stop but even if not a change may have been required anyway to unlock all of this.
		
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I suspect if it was that or no deal then they'd do it.  But I expect they want assurances that something different would happen in that time and not more of the UK parliament not finding a majority for anything.


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## ger147 (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm now predicting article 50 extended for a year and TMay gone by the end of the week.
		
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The EU won't allow a 12 month extension just because we ask for one.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think it was an attempt at a coordinated effort by the government and the EU to spin it as such. Possibly TMay saying to the EU that this is my last chance and if I fail you'll be dealing with someone else, possibly more eurosceptic, so throw me a bone here. The EU have kind of played along but I expect that will crack in the next few days once it gets voted down. *Trouble is that there is a high percentage of lawyers in parliament so they will see through that pretty quickly.*

Click to expand...

I think they have done. A number of lawyers, not MP's, posted this morning that nothing had changed and the UK could not leave of it's own accord, no reason to expect any others to read it differently. I expected Cox to try to bluff it out a little more but he gave a straight answer fairly quickly to that simple question that will have scuppered the deal.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 12, 2019)

If we do have a 12 month extension do we then field candidates in the EU elections in June? And Junker has already said that this is the second chance, there won't be a third.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 12, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			If we do have a 12 month extension do we then field candidates in the EU elections in June? And Junker has already said that this is the second chance, there won't be a third.
		
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I think we do, which is the last thing they'd want, assuming a load of leave candidates get in.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 12, 2019)

With speculation of a Brexit extension growing by the day, there are increasing suspicions that the UK and EU will stitch something up to avoid the hugely embarrassing spectacle of the UK taking part in the next European Parliament Elections, even if Article 50 has been extended past when the elections are due to take place in May. _Farage will be the big winner â€“ the Tories will be routedâ€¦
Leave Means Leave_ have now served legal notice on the Government to notify them that they will be taking legal action to ensure that voters can still take part in the European elections if the UK has failed to leave by that time. LML founder Richard Tice warns that _â€œwe cannot be in a situation where we become trapped in the EU without a say.â€_ _They have served a â€˜pre-actionâ€™ notice to David Lidington today, Lidington now has a week to respondâ€¦_


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## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2019)

Watched Liddington answering the Brexit Select Committee this morning.  Not taken much notice of him before but he came over very well when answering questions.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

The ERG star chamber (and yes that is a real thing and not something from the latest Star Wars film) have said they will reject the deal.  DUP expected to follow shortly. Looks like it is a dead parrot. Paddy Power now offering 9 to one on it passing and 50 to one on on it being rejected. Time to pile in shortly......


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			With speculation of a Brexit extension growing by the day, there are increasing suspicions that the UK and EU will stitch something up to avoid the hugely embarrassing spectacle of the UK taking part in the next European Parliament Elections, even if Article 50 has been extended past when the elections are due to take place in May. _Farage will be the big winner â€“ the Tories will be routedâ€¦
Leave Means Leave_ have now served legal notice on the Government to notify them that they will be taking legal action to ensure that voters can still take part in the European elections if the UK has failed to leave by that time. LML founder Richard Tice warns that _â€œwe cannot be in a situation where we become trapped in the EU without a say.â€_ _They have served a â€˜pre-actionâ€™ notice to David Lidington today, Lidington now has a week to respondâ€¦_

Click to expand...

The article says that Farage's latest attempt to fail to get any votes to become a proper MP/political party is more popular than UKIP.  But I'd argue that seeing as UKIP is now virtually a sub-committee of the National Front it's no great achievement. Still, I would actually like to see PR and parties like Farages new one, and indeed any others, get some seats if they get enough votes.  As the current system first past the post system doesn't seem to be getting us very far.

But whatever happens let's not hope the Tories get scared of Farage encroaching on their territory and fearing losing MPs or votes to them and doing something stupid without properly thinking it through.  As what can possibly go wrong with that...


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## Mudball (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said: I'm now predicting article 50 extended for a year and TMay gone by the end of the week.
		
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Apparently TMs husband in the house now... will she go today if it fails?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Apparently TMs husband in the house now... *will she go today if it fails*?
		
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Friday after all 3 votes have happened.


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## Mudball (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Friday after all 3 votes have happened.
		
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Why not quit when high (or before going further low)


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## Old Skier (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Friday after all 3 votes have happened.
		
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Today surely, with a, "I've done all I can" speech.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Why not quit when high (or before going further low)
		
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I think the only high she could hit today is if she starts sniffing glue.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Today surely, with a, "I've done all I can" speech.
		
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There's 2 more votes to go yet after today to ensure complete chaos and hit peak constitutional omnishambles.  If you're going to go down at least leave the maximum carnage behind before you sail off into the sunset running through wheat fields.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

General election now sounding a lot more likely if the vote goes down tonight.  But my god, you'll have to go a long way down the ballot paper to find a party that is not incompetent, invisible or mostly racist/antisemitic. I wonder if I'll have the chance to vote for Soubry's party as I'm in her constituency.  Or if not let's hope the Greens field a candidate around me.


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## Old Skier (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			General election now sounding a lot more likely if the vote goes down tonight.  But my god, you'll have to go a long way down the ballot paper to find a party that is not incompetent, invisible or mostly racist/antisemitic. I wonder if I'll have the chance to vote for Soubry's party as I'm in her constituency.  Or if not let's hope the Greens field a candidate around me.
		
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If the current 650 are standing I think I'll abstain


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## spongebob59 (Mar 12, 2019)

DUP say no....


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## Mudball (Mar 12, 2019)

as a side note.. came across this via Twitter..  the full report does not read well..   Disclaimer: Cannot verify this

_Brexit has already utterly gutted the UK. The impact on the City is far worse than anyone has admitted until now. 269 banking firms and Â£800bn in assets have been transferred - with far more to come... https://newfinancial.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2019.03-New-Financial-Brexitometer-EXT-HIGH-RES.pdf â€¦ _


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## Mudball (Mar 12, 2019)

BTW, given this is probably the most important vote in our history (since the last vote 2 weeks ago), why is the Commons so sparse...  Just goes to show that WasteMinister dont care..


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2019)

Mudball said:



			BTW, given this is probably the most important vote in our history (since the last vote 2 weeks ago), why is the Commons so sparse...  Just goes to show that WasteMinister dont care..
		
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The debate started at around 2pm, the vote will be at 7pm. There is little new to hear so most of what is being said is recycling the same old patter from all sides. There is no need to sit through it all again, you just need to be there to hear the key bits and then for the vote.

The MP's will all be there in the House, just not in the Chamber.


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## Hobbit (Mar 12, 2019)

Mudball said:



			as a side note.. came across this via Twitter..  the full report does not read well..   Disclaimer: Cannot verify this

_Brexit has already utterly gutted the UK. The impact on the City is far worse than anyone has admitted until now. 269 banking firms and Â£800bn in assets have been transferred - with far more to come... https://newfinancial.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2019.03-New-Financial-Brexitometer-EXT-HIGH-RES.pdf â€¦ _

Click to expand...

You need to read the detail, and also understand EU financial rules. For example, every single bank that wants to operate in the EU, post-Brexit, will have to open more than just a branch, but not necessarily its HQ.

One thing in the report is very clear; 269 firms haven't been transferred. They "have relocated part of their business, moving some staff or setting up new entities." And the report says 165 have moved, not 269.

The article also says that Â£800bn has moved or is moving. Well, which is it? "Has moved," or "is moving?"

And the numbers that have moved, according to the report, 100 to Dublin, 60 to Luxembourg, Paris 41, Frankfurt 40, Amsterdam 32, Spain 12, Sweden 4, Brussels 9. Does that add up to 269? No it doesn't. But it does say some firms are opening up more than one new office in the EU, but even then the numbers in the report don't add up.

I don't doubt there's a lot of fact in the report, but there's an awful lot of opinion and inaccuracy.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105423352733282304


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## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105423352733282304

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Yes, its funny.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm now predicting article 50 extended for a year and TMay gone by the end of the week.
		
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Great, that means Hogan can be involved again after he returns from the land of Oz.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 12, 2019)

What's the odds on Dave Lidington being the next prime minister calling a general election.


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## ger147 (Mar 12, 2019)

TM loses again, 391 to 242 this time...


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## Tashyboy (Mar 12, 2019)

ger147 said:



			TM loses again, 391 to 242 this time...
		
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That's another ass kicking


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## Dando (Mar 12, 2019)

Old man steptoe wanting a general election ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£
Maybe if he got Dianna abacus to count the votes he might have a chance of winning


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## Tashyboy (Mar 12, 2019)

Dando said:



			Old man steptoe wanting a general election ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£
Maybe if he got Dianna abacus to count the votes he might have a chance of winning
		
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Just heard her on the telly, says she has got through three books this week, would of been four but she run out of crayons.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2019)

I fly out to Spain on the 4th of April .. Iâ€™d almost bet that we will still be in the eu


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## Hobbit (Mar 12, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I fly out to Spain on the 4th of April .. Iâ€™d almost bet that we will still be in the eu
		
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We might not let you in


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			We might not let you in 

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Would be a very short trip then lol


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

ger147 said:



			TM loses again, 391 to 242 this time...
		
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Apparently it is the 4th biggest defeat for a government. So it's progress of sorts...


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## Dando (Mar 12, 2019)

Not sure why the BBC are interviewing Chuckup


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 12, 2019)

So I guess itâ€™s two options now - No Deal or Extending Brexit 

It appears that the majority in Parliament donâ€™t want a no deal - EU prob donâ€™t want a No Deal 

But are the EU going to allow a short extension with what they have coming up ? 

This all seems a complete mess , whatâ€™s the point in another General Election? The public are getting sick of them and does any really think itâ€™s going to result in a different result ?

Or are they going to go for a second referendum? 

Have to say well done to all concerned for creating the complete mess and embarrassment our country is in right now , and well done for looking to screw with peoples future


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 12, 2019)

Another mess. Are these MP's really acting in the best interest of the country and those that voted out. It still seems there are so many using this as political maneuvering and positioning. So where do we go now. Can't see no deal getting passed tomorrow and what stop gap if any will the EU allow. We're a laughing stock and in a mess. Why go for another referendum. The public spoke and the MP's screwed it up


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## bladeplayer (Mar 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So I guess itâ€™s two options now - No Deal or Extending Brexit

It appears that the majority in Parliament donâ€™t want a no deal - EU prob donâ€™t want a No Deal

But are the EU going to allow a short extension with what they have coming up ?

This all seems a complete mess , whatâ€™s the point in another General Election? The public are getting sick of them and does any really think itâ€™s going to result in a different result ?

Or are they going to go for a second referendum?

Have to say well done to all concerned for creating the complete mess and embarrassment our country is in right now , and well done for looking to screw with peoples future
		
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Due to EU elections i cant see an extension . Unless there is a very solid plan proved . As far as i know All 27 have to agree to extendion . Thatl b a hard sell 

SO .. Its deal or no deal .. deal was rejected . No deal will b rejected tomoro i think ..  what now ? ? 

 Parliment is so split if u get a deal to suit 1 side the others will reject it and vice versa .. 

As it stands its crash out or revoke article 50 .  
I think if second peoples vote is approved then the EU might wait r grant extension . 

But then its remain or same problems with where it is now .  

Stanleyyyy thats another fine mess u got us in (young crowd wont get that 1 ) 

Thoughts ?


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## drdel (Mar 12, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Another mess. Are these MP's really acting in the best interest of the country and those that voted out. It still seems there are so many using this as political maneuvering and positioning. So where do we go now. Can't see no deal getting passed tomorrow and what stop gap if any will the EU allow. We're a laughing stock and in a mess. Why go for another referendum. The public spoke and the MP's screwed it up
		
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This was always a 'zero sum game' for the EU. They could only gain by being difficult and so the negotiation was never conducted in good faith to seek a jointly beneficial outcome. The UK and PM were always going to be stonewalled. Add to that the fact that MPs were not aligned along party lines and the HoC was in a muddle. The public's vote has become an irritation.


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## Old Skier (Mar 12, 2019)

So the only deal the EU are ok with has now been voted off the table. Tomorrow Parliament votes to take leaving with no deal off the table.
The logical conclusion then is that the deal that has been voted off the table (the only deal acceptable to the EU) is now the deal that is going through.
Yep, I think I've got it


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## bladeplayer (Mar 12, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I fly out to Spain on the 4th of April .. Iâ€™d almost bet that we will still be in the eu
		
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Is there a problem.if uk crash out . What happens then 
Genuinely never thought of booked holidays around or over laping the deadline ? 
Have u bn advised of what would happen ?


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## Old Skier (Mar 12, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Is there a problem.if uk crash out . What happens then
Genuinely never thought of booked holidays around or over laping the deadline ?
Have u bn advised of what would happen ?
		
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That's the problem, the fact that there is going to be no change whatever happens for a minimum of 3 months doesn't suit the agenda to be reported. That was agreed, deal or no deal.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Is there a problem.if uk crash out . What happens then
Genuinely never thought of booked holidays around or over laping the deadline ?
Have u bn advised of what would happen ?
		
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Not much, they said a few months ago flights will be fine. Prob just long ques at passport control
My 20 month year old is gonna be happy lol


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Is there a problem.if uk crash out . What happens then
Genuinely never thought of booked holidays around or over laping the deadline ?
Have u bn advised of what would happen ?
		
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In practical terms as long as you were not planning on holidaying on the Irish border I don't think there would be a problem other than a longer than usual queue when landing if you are flying.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 12, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Not much, they said a few months ago flights will be fine. Prob just long ques at passport control
My 20 month year old is gonna be happy lol
		
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Stil that wouldnt be too bad . Bit chaotic as it new and possibly undr staffed
Enjoy d holiday


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Dando said:



			Not sure why the BBC are interviewing Chuckup
		
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Cause they were interviewing Rees-Mogg at the same time so that's their version of balance.


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## Old Skier (Mar 12, 2019)

Prob just long ques at passport control!!!!!!

Like now then


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## GaryK (Mar 12, 2019)

The only way the I can see the EU granting an extension is if May commits to holding a 2nd referendum. I cannot see any other plausible reason that the EU would accept - they have clearly stated that there will be no movement from their side.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			In practical terms as long as you were not planning on holidaying on the Irish border I don't think there would be a problem other than a longer than usual queue when landing if you are flying.
		
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I Thought there might be visa problems .. will freedom of movement be restricted immediatly etc .  
Hopefuly wont b a problem for him any how


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## bladeplayer (Mar 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			That's the problem, the fact that there is going to be no change whatever happens for a minimum of 3 months doesn't suit the agenda to be reported. That was agreed, deal or no deal.
		
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I was not aware of that . Thank u


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## Tashyboy (Mar 12, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I fly out to Spain on the 4th of April .. Iâ€™d almost bet that we will still be in the eu
		
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I would be more concerned what plane i was on. rather than actually  leaving the country


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I would be more concerned what plane i was on. rather than actually  leaving the country
		
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No need to worry about those planes, they are banned from uk and eu airspace and my company donâ€™t own any (the one Iâ€™m flying with)


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			I Thought there might be visa problems .. will freedom of movement be restricted immediatly etc . 
Hopefuly wont b a problem for him any how
		
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Whatever happens, deal, no deal or no brexit there will either be an interim period whilst things get sorted or we will stay.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Yet again Caitlin Moran has nailed it


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105558133835997193


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2019)

GaryK said:



			The only way the I can see the EU granting an extension is if May commits to holding a 2nd referendum. I cannot see any other plausible reason that the EU would accept - they have clearly stated that there will be no movement from their side.
		
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There could be a general election. Quicker to organise than a referendum apparently. As the govt is unable to get through its legislation this is very possible and was being suggested today by conservative politicians even.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

GaryK said:



			The only way the I can see the EU granting an extension is if May commits to holding a 2nd referendum. I cannot see any other plausible reason that the EU would accept - they have clearly stated that there will be no movement from their side.
		
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They could say that they will give a year or so extension gambling that the longer they give the more chance there would be of a second referendum if parliament is just permanently gridlocked.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There could be a general election. Quicker to organise than a referendum apparently. As the govt is unable to get through its legislation this is very possible and was being suggested today by conservative politicians even.
		
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Would it change anything though.  I imagine the result would be a hung parliament with the Conservatives holding on, unless the Brexit party managed to grab enough seats to upset the balance. It would also not heal the rift in the country.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Is there a problem.*if uk crash out . What happens then*
Genuinely never thought of booked holidays around or over laping the deadline ?
Have u bn advised of what would happen ?
		
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Crashing out, Falling off a cliff, what if the UK simply left the EU in an orderly fashion just like people wanted before the politicians made it complicated.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Would it change anything though.  I imagine the result would be a hung parliament with the Conservatives holding on, unless the Brexit party managed to grab enough seats to upset the balance. It would also not heal the rift in the country.
		
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Who knows. It may swing parliament just enough to get something through one way or the other. 

The rift in the country won't start to heal until this is over. An election won't make it worse, I don't think.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Crashing out, Falling off a cliff, what if the UK simply left the EU in an orderly fashion just like people wanted before the politicians made it complicated.
		
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Because you canâ€™t simply leave in an orderley fashion without everybody agreeing to it.

What may be orderley to us maybe unacceptable to others.

Seriously after all this time you believe that is a possibility?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because you canâ€™t simply leave in an orderley fashion without everybody agreeing to it.

What may be orderley to us maybe unacceptable to others.

Seriously after all this time you believe that is a possibility?
		
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People believing this (not saying socket does but many do) is half the problem. They donâ€™t understand how we canâ€™t just walk out on 29th March and things need to be agreed regardless even without a deal. Spent how many years getting agreements in place .. canâ€™t undo all that work in the space of 2 years let alone 2 weeks which is what they have left


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			They could say that they will give a year or so extension gambling that the longer they give the more chance there would be of a second referendum if parliament is just permanently gridlocked.
		
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I expect thatâ€™s what is the likely response - both the EU and HoC I believe donâ€™t want to leave the EU without a deal - or indeed the EU so the longer it goes on the more frustrated people will become and the more people will have had enough of the whole thing and a second vote will happen

Right from the beginning it for me seemed a vote too crucial for the public - it should have been the MPâ€™s we voted for making this choice - itâ€™s a complete embarrassing shambles and we must be a laughing to the world



Lord Tyrion said:



			Who knows. It may swing parliament just enough to get something through one way or the other.

The rift in the country won't start to heal until this is over. An election won't make it worse, I don't think.
		
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I donâ€™t ever see the rift healing - this vote has split the country and no matter what happens there will always be the split and will be get wider and result in more bad feelings. For a country thatâ€™s normally such a positive hard working country at the moment itâ€™s a depressing place to be - a lot of people worried about the future and there are going to be a lot of finger pointing etc if itâ€™s just get worse.

Can anyone really see things improving dramatically over the next 5/10 years ? For me there is far too much arrogance and bad feeling at the moment


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I expect thatâ€™s what is the likely response - both the EU and HoC I believe donâ€™t want to leave the EU without a deal - or indeed the EU so the longer it goes on the more frustrated people will become and the more people will have had enough of the whole thing and a second vote will happen

Right from the beginning it for me seemed a vote too crucial for the public - it should have been the MPâ€™s we voted for making this choice - itâ€™s a complete embarrassing shambles and we must be a laughing to the world


I donâ€™t ever see the rift healing - this vote has split the country and no matter what happens there will always be the split and will be get wider and result in more bad feelings. For a country thatâ€™s normally such a positive hard working country at the moment itâ€™s a depressing place to be - a lot of people worried about the future and there are going to be a lot of finger pointing etc if itâ€™s just get worse.

*Can anyone really see things improving dramatically over the next 5/10 years* ? For me there is far too much arrogance and bad feeling at the moment
		
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Depends which way we go.  if we follow the US model of the extremists increasingly leading the political agenda then it doesn't look good. If the extremists go back to being just that, voices on the extreme of both sides but the majority of compromise happens in areas where both sides can work together then we have a hope. 

I think TMays biggest mistake all along has been trying to keep the ERG on side as in reality nothing apart from a hard Brexit would have pleased them. And there is no appetite for that across the house or in the business world who the tories rely on for support and donations. So if she would have essentially written their votes off and tried to get more Labour on side and appeased the moderates who left in her party a bit more then she probably could have got a majority there. But then again Corbyn may well have just played politics as well and screwed that.


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## Mudball (Mar 12, 2019)

What would Trump do?

If there is a GE tomorrow.. I have no idea who I would vote for... maybe the Green Party - at least I know what they stand for ..


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Crashing out, Falling off a cliff, what if the UK simply left the EU i*n an orderly fashion just like people wanted* *before the politicians made it complicated.*

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One could argue that underestimating the complexity of unravelling us from 40 years of economic, legal and political ties with the EU whilst at the same time ensuring our economy is in a decent state kind of got us in this mess in the first place.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			One could argue that underestimating the complexity of unravelling us from 40 years of economic, legal and political ties with the EU whilst at the same time ensuring our economy is in a decent state kind of got us in this mess in the first place.
		
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That doesn't matter Leave means Leave.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Mudball said:



*What would Trump do?*

If there is a GE tomorrow.. I have no idea who I would vote for... maybe the Green Party - at least I know what they stand for ..
		
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Just lie constantly on social media blaming the EU for all the ills in society and whipping up hysteria to appeal to his increasingly obedient and non questioning fanbase who can't see him for the charlatan he is. And he'd just do whatever best suited his increasingly desperate desire for power including promoting an outcome that would lead to a lot of misery and heartache for many less fortunate than him, knowing full well that his immense wealth would shield him from any adverse impact in any way, and he may even make some money out of it.





Oh sorry, I thought you said what would Rees-Mogg and Bojo do.  Trump would do much the same.....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 12, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			That doesn't matter Leave means Leave.
		
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I agree Stu, my issue is with the words â€œin an orderley fashionâ€.
Leave, but be prepared for all scenarios, good and bad.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 12, 2019)

Will there be much point in another general election or referendum? Neither party sticks to their manifesto,  and referendums arenâ€™t respected. 

Iâ€™m all for a second referendum providing those that voted the first time round are to be only ones to vote again. 
Only then when will there be a true measure of what was wanted 3 years ago now people are â€œmore informedâ€, and â€œknow what theyâ€™re voting forâ€.  

No red buses for remainers to claim that we was lied to allowed. 

I think after this sham, I wonâ€™t vote again. None of these votes affect me anyway and Iâ€™ll set fire to my conservative membership card.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Will there be much point in another general election or referendum? Neither party sticks to their manifesto,  and referendums arenâ€™t respected.

Iâ€™m all for a second referendum *providing those that voted the first time round are to be only ones to vote again.
Only then when will there be a true measure of what was wanted 3 years ago now people are â€œmore informedâ€, and â€œknow what theyâ€™re voting forâ€. *

No red buses for remainers to claim that we was lied to allowed.

I think after this sham, I wonâ€™t vote again. None of these votes affect me anyway and Iâ€™ll set fire to my conservative membership card.
		
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So we have a referendum in 2019 to find out what we wanted in June 2016?


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## bladeplayer (Mar 12, 2019)

Very 


SocketRocket said:



			Crashing out, Falling off a cliff, what if the UK simply left the EU in an orderly fashion just like people wanted before the politicians made it complicated.
		
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 very true but seeing as the politicians . the ones to guide the crash , fall or simply leave in an orderly fashion or what ever term u or i for that matter choose to use .. cant seem to talk . Discuss or agree in an ordinary manner. There appears in my opinion very little chance of what the people wanted been delivered.. 

My question how ever badly worded.  was a genuine question re travel arangements if uk leave with no deal . It was well answered in following posts


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## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Who knows. It may swing parliament just enough to get something through one way or the other.

The rift in the country won't start to heal until this is over. An election won't make it worse, I don't think.
		
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I'm confident it would.  Dont you think people are sick and tired with elections and what effect would a new round of political grandstanding do to further the distrust they have with MPs.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There could be a general election. Quicker to organise than a referendum apparently. As the govt is unable to get through its legislation this is very possible and was being suggested today by conservative politicians even.
		
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The problem with that plan is that England will probably just vote the same Tories back in to lead a UK Government.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			One could argue that underestimating the complexity of unravelling us from 40 years of economic, legal and political ties with the EU whilst at the same time ensuring our economy is in a decent state kind of got us in this mess in the first place.
		
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I agree this is the position we now find ourselves in due to the inept way our Prime Minister has allowed the withdraw process to be screwed.  We should have been aware of the EU's negotiating intentions 18 months ago and walked away informing them we either negotiate a free trade agreement straight away that would solve the Irish border situation or we will start making arrangements to leave without a formal withdraw agreement.
.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The problem with that plan is that England will probably just vote the same Tories back in to lead a UK Government.
		
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Oh, I see. We will have English only General Elections now, will we.  You do say some very silly things.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So we have a referendum in 2019 to find out what we wanted in June 2016?
		
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Apparently to some, voters were misinformed, lied to and nobody new what they were voting for which bought about the basis for a second referendum.
So to answer your question. Thatâ€™d be a yes. (Make sure itâ€™s a sunny day as some voters donâ€™t like rain)
And after that referendum, we have another just to really make sure. Maybe throw another general election in there, and get another server for the GM forum so we can fit this thread on, and repeat exactly what was said over and over again, again.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Apparently to some, voters were misinformed, lied to and nobody new what they were voting for which bought about the basis for a second referendum.
So to answer your question. Thatâ€™d be a yes. (Make sure itâ€™s a sunny day as some voters donâ€™t like rain)
And after that referendum, we have another just to really make sure. Maybe throw another general election in there, and get another server for the GM forum so we can fit this thread on, and repeat exactly what was said over and over again, again.
		
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As parliament can't seem to get a majority for any option to take us forwards I think any calls for a 2nd referendum want to put the options we currently have to the vote, not rerun the one from 2016.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Will there be much point in another general election or referendum? Neither party sticks to their manifesto,  and referendums arenâ€™t respected.

Iâ€™m all for a second referendum providing those that voted the first time round are to be only ones to vote again.
Only then when will there be a true measure of what was wanted 3 years ago now people are â€œmore informedâ€, and â€œknow what theyâ€™re voting forâ€. 

No red buses for remainers to claim that we was lied to allowed.

I think after this sham, I wonâ€™t vote again. None of these votes affect me anyway and Iâ€™ll set fire to my conservative membership card.
		
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Referendums are pointless. It was never legally binding so this â€œwill of the peopleâ€ rubbish branded about means nothing. It doesnâ€™t need to be respected at all as itâ€™s not like an election where one party gets in legally on that it was just basically an opinion poll


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## GaryK (Mar 12, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Referendums are pointless. It was never legally binding so this â€œwill of the peopleâ€ rubbish branded about means nothing. It doesnâ€™t need to be respected at all as itâ€™s not like an election where one party gets in legally on that it was just basically an opinion poll
		
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As far as I am aware, whilst you are correct in that the referendum was NOT legally binding, subsequent actions of parliament made the invocation of article 50 legally (and that we will leave the EU on 29th March) binding. If there was a move to postpone article 50, I believe that they would need to make amendments to the law.

I may be talking utter rubbish, but that is how I understand it to be at the moment.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			People believing this (not saying socket does but many do) is half the problem. They donâ€™t understand how we canâ€™t just walk out on 29th March and things need to be agreed regardless even without a deal. Spent how many years getting agreements in place .. canâ€™t undo all that work in the space of 2 years let alone 2 weeks which is what they have left
		
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We have had 2.5 years to sort things out so we could leave on March 29. The EU certainly believe this is adequate time. A two year period is written into their Article 50.
When both the EU and the UK had kicked the can far enough down the road they came up with the implementation period so we can officially leave but have some time to sort things out.
So SR and others are correct. We can just walk out on March 29 and right now that is the legal position.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I expect thatâ€™s what is the likely response - both the EU and HoC I believe donâ€™t want to leave the EU without a deal - or indeed the EU so the longer it goes on the more frustrated people will become and the more people will have had enough of the whole thing and a second vote will happen

*Right from the beginning it for me seemed a vote too crucial for the public - it should have been the MPâ€™s we voted for making this choice - itâ€™s a complete embarrassing shambles and we must be a laughing to the world*


I donâ€™t ever see the rift healing - this vote has split the country and no matter what happens there will always be the split and will be get wider and result in more bad feelings. For a country thatâ€™s normally such a positive hard working country at the moment itâ€™s a depressing place to be - a lot of people worried about the future and there are going to be a lot of finger pointing etc if itâ€™s just get worse.

Can anyone really see things improving dramatically over the next 5/10 years ? For me there is far too much arrogance and bad feeling at the moment
		
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You really think, after everything that has happened since the referendum, that we should have left it to our MPâ€™s to make this choice? Really? What is it about our MPâ€™s exactly that inspires you with such confidence?
Did you / would you have said the same when the public voted to join? I seriously doubt it.
I suggest that as a remainer you only regret the public being asked because they delivered an answer you donâ€™t like. That is democracy. You only hold this view now because you know our MPâ€™s are remain biased and would never have voted to leave. But guess what? Itâ€™s our country. Itâ€™s our decision and we made it. The very people charged with delivering the will of the people have failed us and their duty. 
Our MPâ€™s have all been willing to embrace democracy when it gets them elected to their very privileged and important positions. Yet so happy to wash their hands of it when it gives them a job to do they donâ€™t like.
Itâ€™s our MPâ€™s, the very people you say should have made this decision that have made this country a laughing stock, not the British people.
Letâ€™s be clear. The public were asked a question. They delivered their answer. It is our MPâ€™s who have messed this up, through their arrogance, posturing, political grandstanding and self / party preservation. Do not lay any blame for this on the British public.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The problem with that plan is that England will probably just vote the same Tories back in to lead a UK Government.
		
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Donâ€™t blame England because Scotland has marginalised itself by voting for local parties on local issues in UK wide elections.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			As parliament can't seem to get a majority for any option to take us forwards I think any calls for a 2nd referendum want to put the options we currently have to the vote, not rerun the one from 2016.
		
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So not have the option to remain on the ballot?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

GaryK said:



			As far as I am aware, whilst you are correct in that the referendum was NOT legally binding, subsequent actions of parliament made the invocation of article 50 legally (and that we will leave the EU on 29th March) binding. If there was a move to postpone article 50, I believe that they would need to make amendments to the law.

I may be talking utter rubbish, but that is how I understand it to be at 
the moment.
		
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Another one of mays failings was trying to show she was clever and putting it into law so she could be seen to be â€œrespecting the will of the peopleâ€ not realising it isnâ€™t as easy as it seemed to leave


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			We have had 2.5 years to sort things out so we could leave on March 29. The EU certainly believe this is adequate time. A two year period is written into their Article 50.
When both the EU and the UK had kicked the can far enough down the road they came up with the implementation period so we can officially leave but have some time to sort things out.
So SR and others are correct. We can just walk out on March 29 and right now that is the legal position.
		
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Yes we can â€œwalk outâ€ but we wonâ€™t be out of the eu on the 29th March.. we wonâ€™t have cut all ties and be done even if we walked out there would be months of sorting out before we were â€œoutâ€


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			So not have the option to remain on the ballot?
		
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If the principle of any further referendum is to find out what we want to do now then it depends if that is one of the potential options available to us now. 

Just because anything was an option on the original referendum does not automatically preclude it from being an option now. But if it is felt it is not a viable option to get us out of the current stalemate then no.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

GaryK said:



			As far as I am aware, whilst you are correct in that the referendum was NOT legally binding, subsequent actions of parliament made the invocation of article 50 legally (and that we will leave the EU on 29th March) binding. If there was a move to postpone article 50, I believe that they would need to make amendments to the law.

I may be talking utter rubbish, but that is how I understand it to be at the moment.
		
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You are correct so they would just make amendments to the legislation to extend article 50 (if the EU agreed which is another kettle of fish).


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## Beezerk (Mar 13, 2019)

Well that's me spoiling my ballot paper for the remainder of  my years. What a bunch of self serving chancers, none of them deserve my vote.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			We have had 2.5 years to sort things out so we could leave on March 29. The EU certainly believe this is adequate time. A two year period is written into their Article 50.
When both the EU and the UK had kicked the can far enough down the road they came up with the implementation period so we can officially leave but have some time to sort things out.
*So SR and others are correct. We can just walk out on March 29 and right now that is the legal position*.
		
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Yes we can but if a withdrawal agreement is not approved by Parliament by then then that will mean leaving with out a deal. And parliament is voting on today and Thursday to effectively try and prevent that from happening.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Well that's me spoiling my ballot paper for the remainder of  my years. What a bunch of self serving chancers, none of them deserve my vote.
		
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When brexit isnâ€™t delivered and the Tory party becomes unelectable , with labour being under Corbyn and being the same.. we will officially have a system of voting for the ones we hate the least


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## Imurg (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			When brexit isnâ€™t delivered and the Tory party becomes unelectable , with labour being under Corbyn and being the same.. we will officially have a system of voting for the ones we hate the least
		
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Hasn't that been the case for some considerable amount of time..?


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## Beezerk (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			When brexit isnâ€™t delivered and the Tory party becomes unelectable , with labour being under Corbyn and being the same.. we will officially have a system of voting for the ones we hate the least
		
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A Ref 2 supporting Labour government with Corbyn at the helm and Abbot in the cabinet scares the hell out of me. For me that's a far worse option than No Deal.


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## Scoobiesnax (Mar 13, 2019)

For the first time in my life I will be looking to spoil my vote if a general election is called by writing "NONE they're all bloody useless"


Beezerk said:



			A Ref 2 supporting Labour government with Corbyn at the helm and Abbot in the cabinet scares the hell out of me. For me that's a far worse option than No Deal.
		
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This is exactly why I'll strategically vote for whoever I believe will keep him out of power.  The tories may be incompetent but it scares me to think what Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell could do to the UK.


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Well that's me spoiling my ballot paper for the remainder of  my years. What a bunch of self serving chancers, none of them deserve my vote.
		
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Just do what the youngsters do. Stay in bed, especially if itâ€™s raining.


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

Iâ€™m glad MPs continue to do their best for the country and doing all they can to bring about a second referendum, though I do think it will be fruitless.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Donâ€™t blame England because Scotland has marginalised itself by voting for local parties on local issues in UK wide elections.
		
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I am not blaming England. That is you just jumping to your sad old tired views.
More a case of feeling sorry for England's 'locals' who don't seem to have any choice of vote but Labour or Tory.


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2019)

Al Murray for PM


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			A Ref 2 supporting Labour government with Corbyn at the helm and Abbot in the cabinet scares the hell out of me. For me that's a far worse option than No Deal.
		
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Could be worse, we could have a no deal and a Corbyn government.


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So we have a referendum in 2019 to find out what we wanted in June 2016?
		
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It's quite clear what the people wanted in 2016 although it now is obvious that the elected representatives don't actually give a stuff.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Could be worse, we could have a no deal and a Corbyn government.
		
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I don't think it will be a Corbyn government, Watson seems to be making moves for a centre/left split.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



*Iâ€™m glad MPs continue to do their best for the country* and doing all they can to bring about a second referendum, though I do think it will be fruitless.
		
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Unbeliveable!


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## Beezerk (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Could be worse, we could have a no deal and a Corbyn government.
		
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ðŸ˜±
No deal is getting voted off tonight though, then a bit more scare tactics, before we know it the MPâ€™s who in the main donâ€™t want Brexit will set up Ref2 and we will stay in the EU.
Regardless of how I voted in Ref1, itâ€™s a disgrace how they have/will ignore the result.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I don't think it will be a Corbyn government, Watson seems to be making moves for a centre/left split.
		
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The Nonce Finder General in No 10. Now there's a thought. ðŸ¤”


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2019)

So the vote was 2 and half years was it ?

We are due to leave in 2 weeks and nothing has changed , we are no closer than we were two years ago 

So the question is - 

Are we no closer because the country is that deeply connected to the EU its a complete nightmare to find a deal that suits both us and the EU and ensures we leave ?

Or 

Because the majority of MP's believe that leaving is a bad thing and trying to find a way to keep us in ?

Now from what i can see the PM is trying her best to get a good way to leave the EU , she is trying to leave the EU but the deal clearly doesnt please the MP's  - they dont want to leave with a No Deal but do they really think the EU is going to offer a better one ?

I saw a video of a Lady MP pretty much pointing the finger of blame at the likes of Johnson etc - for skulking into the background , removing themselves from cabinet yet mouthing off outside the HOC

Why hasnt Boris Johnson stepped up to the plate and challenged TM and then delvier Brexit ?


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Unbeliveable!
		
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In this case, itâ€™s clearly true. As for all the other stuff they do - no comment. ðŸ˜


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## spongebob59 (Mar 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the vote was 2 and half years was it ?

We are due to leave in 2 weeks and nothing has changed , we are no closer than we were two years ago

So the question is -

Are we no closer because the country is that deeply connected to the EU its a complete nightmare to find a deal that suits both us and the EU and ensures we leave ?

Or

*Because the majority of MP's believe that leaving is a bad thing and trying to find a way to keep us in ?*

Now from what i can see the PM is trying her best to get a good way to leave the EU , she is trying to leave the EU but the deal clearly doesnt please the MP's  - they dont want to leave with a No Deal but do they really think the EU is going to offer a better one ?

I saw a video of a Lady MP pretty much pointing the finger of blame at the likes of Johnson etc - for skulking into the background , removing themselves from cabinet yet mouthing off outside the HOC

Why hasnt Boris Johnson stepped up to the plate and challenged TM and then delvier Brexit ?
		
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*Because the majority of MP's believe that leaving is a bad thing and trying to find a way to keep us in ?* 

this and the fact that May tried to sell a deal that was a dogs dinners and was unwilling to change even though 1/2 the cabinet left.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47551266

And this quite frankly is what boils my piss. The government release this information stating that 87% of imports will be tariff free. At the moment it is 80%, With the current EU trade deals. So in essence we still need to stay in Europe and pay Billions to get a worse bloody deal.
Remainers and MPs that want an extension need to open there closed eyes.


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## Mudball (Mar 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the vote was 2 and half years was it ?

We are due to leave in 2 weeks and nothing has changed , we are no closer than we were two years ago

So the question is -

Are we no closer because the country is that deeply connected to the EU its a complete nightmare to find a deal that suits both us and the EU and ensures we leave ?

Or

Because the majority of MP's believe that leaving is a bad thing and trying to find a way to keep us in ?

Now from what i can see the PM is trying her best to get a good way to leave the EU , she is trying to leave the EU but the deal clearly doesnt please the MP's  - they dont want to leave with a No Deal but do they really think the EU is going to offer a better one ?

I saw a video of a Lady MP pretty much pointing the finger of blame at the likes of Johnson etc - for skulking into the background , removing themselves from cabinet yet mouthing off outside the HOC

*Why hasnt Boris Johnson stepped up to the plate and challenged TM and then delvier Brexit* ?
		
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Because he cant and he knows that...  he never thougth he, Mogg and ilk would win and had no plan A/B/C..  It was a leadership ploy that went out of hand and created right old Eaton Mess for all of us.


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## Dando (Mar 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Unbeliveable!
		
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he's only happy because if there is a 2nd referendum then remain might win and no doubt that referendum would be legally binding


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the question is -
Are we no closer because the country is that deeply connected to the EU its a complete nightmare to find a deal that suits both us and the EU and ensures we leave ?
Or
Because the majority of MP's believe that leaving is a bad thing and trying to find a way to keep us in ?

*Now from what i can see the PM is trying her best to get a good way to leave the EU* , she is trying to leave the EU but the deal clearly doesnt please the MP's  - they dont want to leave with a No Deal but do they really think the EU is going to offer a better one ?
		
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May worked in a bubble for 2 1/2 yrs. She failed to listen to those outside the bubble who told her she would never get her deal through. She has run the clock down and now seems surprised that MP's have rejected the deal that everyone told her would never get through. She is clueless, the worst PM in my lifetime. If that is her best then that is embarrassing.

She needs to go, the govt needs a new PM, possibly an election. She has to go though as otherwise the impasse remains. TM is part of the problem here, she is blocking progress whether deliberately or not.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47551266

And this quite frankly is what boils my piss. The government release this information stating that 87% of imports will be tariff free. At the moment it is 80%, With the current EU trade deals. So in essence we still need to stay in Europe and pay Billions to get a worse bloody deal.
*Remainers and MPs that want an extension need to open there closed eyes*.
		
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But they may say what is the alternative solution based on where we are now?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			May worked in a bubble for 2 1/2 yrs. She failed to listen to those outside the bubble who told her she would never get her deal through. She has run the clock down and now seems surprised that MP's have rejected the deal that everyone told her would never get through. She is clueless, the worst PM in my lifetime. If that is her best then that is embarrassing.

She needs to go, the govt needs a new PM, possibly an election. She has to go though as otherwise the impasse remains. TM is part of the problem here, she is blocking progress whether deliberately or not.
		
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Another election ? Arenâ€™t we sick of them and whatâ€™s going to change , the government wonâ€™t change 

Did she not recently win one and also a leadership contest and also a vote of confidence? 

Is it really down to one person ? Is she the only person doing the negotiations 

Why has no one else stepped up then if itâ€™s all down to May - who is going to step in and do a better job.


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## Foxholer (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So we have a referendum in 2019 to find out what we wanted in June 2016?
		
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Not quite! Perhaps more like .... to find out what we *should have* wanted in 2016! 

I'm fundamentally against having a 2nd Referendum - as nothing has changed in the actual question involved! So, as a 'non-extreme' voter I'd vote Leave this time if there was one!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			ðŸ˜±
No deal is getting voted off tonight though, then a bit more scare tactics, before we know it *the MPâ€™s who in the main donâ€™t want Brexit will set up Ref2 and we will stay in the EU.*
Regardless of how I voted in Ref1, itâ€™s a disgrace how they have/will ignore the result.
		
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There is not a majority in parliament for a second referendum of any type at the moment. The ERgers will not be placated unless it is a hard Brexit. So I expect the eventual solution will be that the tories will need more Labour support to pass any deal.  And whilst Corbyn plays lip service to a second referendum, he's a Eurosceptic at heart and his heart is not in a second referendum. So I expect that the compromise will have to be made up of parts of the current deal and parts of the Labour proposals, which will essentially be a softer Brexit.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Not quite! Perhaps more like .... to find out what we *should have* wanted in 2016!

I'm fundamentally against having a 2nd Referendum - as nothing has changed in the actual question involved! So, as a 'non-extreme' voter I*'d vote Leave this time if there was one*!
		
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As I've said before I don't think anyone wants a pure rerun of the 2016 one with 'Stay or leave' being the only 2 options. As many have said that is kind of pointless. So 'leave' would probably not be a choice but the choices would be the whatever options are available. Something like leave with no withdrawal agreement, leave with whatever the final deal on offer from the EU may be etc etc. Just having 'leave' on the ballot paper without any kind of explanation of in reality how it would be done and what the basic implications would be kind of got us into all this trouble in the first place.


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## Foxholer (Mar 13, 2019)

GaryK said:



			As far as I am aware, whilst you are correct in that the referendum was NOT legally binding, subsequent actions of parliament made the invocation of article 50 legally (and that we will leave the EU on 29th March) binding. If there was a move to postpone article 50, I believe that they would need to make amendments to the law.
		
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They were smart enough to provide a facility to amend that date 'by Regulation'. So all that is required is for a Minister (likely to be May) to issue that regulation.

Of course, any change of date would need to be via unanimous agreement within the European Council.

A subsequent referendum could be made legally binding.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2019)

How many of Cameron's 'swivel eyed loons' will vote to support a No Deal Brexit tonight?
I would be surprised if it is more than 30.
Says it all really.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How many of Cameron's 'swivel eyed loons' will vote to support a No Deal Brexit tonight?
I would be surprised if it is more than 30.
Says it all really.
		
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I would expect more than that. There will be some who think a hard Brexit is great and will vote that way and there will be some that do not really want a hard Brexit but feel that it is the only way, with 16 days to go, of complying with the referendum result in 2016.


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## Beezerk (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			There is not a majority in parliament for a second referendum of any type at the moment.
		
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I hope youâ€™re wrong but with this crop they will vote for whatever gets or keeps them in power. Corbyn will vote for Ref2 if it gets him a bed in number 10.


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## Foxholer (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			As I've said before I don't think anyone wants a pure rerun of the 2016 one with 'Stay or leave' being the only 2 options. As many have said that is kind of pointless. So 'leave' would probably not be a choice but the choices would be the whatever options are available. Something like leave with no withdrawal agreement, leave with whatever the final deal on offer from the EU may be etc etc. Just having 'leave' on the ballot paper without any kind of explanation of in reality how it would be done and what the basic implications would be kind of got us into all this trouble in the first place.
		
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If that's the case, then there's still no point having a referendum imo. The whole proposal for a 2nd referendum was a concoction (bu Remainers) within Parliament in order to get a 'different' (ie. 'Remain') result!

Imo, it's up to Government, through Parliament, not the Public via a further referendum, to enact the original referendum's decision. So Parliament needs to sort itself out. I'm not overly worried about the possibility of a No Deal result - as 'deals' would pretty quickly be made. The extension of tariff free goods just announced is an example. A General Election would not change (and certainly would not 'solve') anything imo. That idea is simply a ploy by Labour!


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## spongebob59 (Mar 13, 2019)

Labours position made clear


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

Really got to admire the deflection on to Labourâ€™s position or the what Labour would do to get in to power etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

We are in this mess because of the Tory Party and they have done everything people accuse Labour of doing to stay in power.

And when that argument fails, letâ€™s use the Comrade Corbyn and the Abbott canâ€™t count cards.

Time for people to recognise whoâ€™s got us in this mess and make them solely responsible.


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## Mudball (Mar 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			If that's the case, then there's still no point having a referendum imo. The whole proposal for a 2nd referendum was a concoction (bu Remainers) within Parliament in order to get a 'different' (ie. 'Remain') result!

Imo, it's up to Government, through Parliament, not the Public via a further referendum, to enact the original referendum's decision. So Parliament needs to sort itself out. *I'm not overly worried about the possibility of a No Deal result - as 'deals' would pretty quickly be made*. The extension of tariff free goods just announced is an example. A General Election would not change (and certainly would not 'solve') anything imo. That idea is simply a ploy by Labour!
		
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Really...  Two and a bit years of omnishambles and we have done deals with somthing like countries that you can count on your hands.    Also, given our position, we may not get to choose if chlorinated meat is in or not.   We were told the EU deal will be the 'easiest in history' - that statement has disappeared like the 350m bus.  

I am sure trade deals but but not by this lot.  I would not send TMay to negotiate a sofa at DFS


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## User62651 (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Really got to admire the deflection on to Labourâ€™s position or the what Labour would do to get in to power etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

We are in this mess because of the Tory Party and they have done everything people accuse Labour of doing to stay in power.

And when that argument fails, letâ€™s use the Comrade Corbyn and the Abbott canâ€™t count cards.

Time for people to recognise whoâ€™s got us in this mess and make them solely responsible.
		
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Agreed, May gambled away her majority on a needless 2017 election and then 'bought' the DUP's backing for a Â£billion....except the DUP rebelled on her anyway. Not a great confidence and supply partner there. Plus she cant get many of her own MPs to back her.
Could be 7 options up for grabs according to BBC analysis if the commons votes today and tomorrow go as expected, only 2 of which bring this to a swift conclusion  -


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2019)

Hesiltine, you know that old geezer who once was an MP and failed to unseat a sitting PM, wants another referendum because most of those that voted leave are now dead and the remainder haven't got a clue about what they voted for.    The man is 89, how old does he think these geriatrics were.


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## Foxholer (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Really got to admire the deflection on to Labourâ€™s position or the what Labour would do to get in to power etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

We are in this mess because of the Tory Party and they have done everything people accuse Labour of doing to stay in power.

And when that argument fails, letâ€™s use the Comrade Corbyn and the Abbott canâ€™t count cards.

Time for people to recognise whoâ€™s got us in this mess and make them solely responsible.
		
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Labour would have been just as bad!

Same logic applies to what happened with/to Labour in the 2008 Financial crisis. Whoever was in charge is deemed to be responsible, so gets the blame, even when 'the other side' would have been just as ineffective!


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2019)

The thing that struck me most about this whole shambles was May's last minute efforts to get support for her deal with the "if you don't vote for this deal there might be No Deal, a second referendum or no Brexit" speech. It's a bit like making a turd sandwich for their tea and then telling your kids if they don't eat it they won't be getting any tea. Thanks Theresa but I think I'll pass on your turd sandwich of a deal.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Labour would have been just as bad!

Same logic applies to what happened with/to Labour in the 2008 Financial crisis. Whoever was in charge is deemed to be responsible, so gets the blame, even when 'the other side' would have been just as ineffective!
		
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No it doesnâ€™t, only 1 Party has had total control over Brexit, to compare it to what happened in the past is irrelevant and a smoke screen.

You are guessing based your opinion of Labour that they would of been just as bad, you could be 100% right or 100% wrong.

The only fact though is, the tory party were totally in control.


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## Scoobiesnax (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No it doesnâ€™t, only 1 Party has had total control over Brexit, to compare it to what happened in the past is irrelevant and a smoke screen.

You are guessing based your opinion of Labour that they would of been just as bad, you could be 100% right or 100% wrong.

The only fact though is, the tory party were totally in control.
		
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I think you'll probably find it was May and her sidekick Olly Robbins who had total control of Brexit or she wouldn't have had all the resignations she had from her Cabinet!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

Scoobiesnax said:



			I think you'll probably find it was May and her sidekick Olly Robbins who had total control of Brexit or she wouldn't have had all the resignations she had from her Cabinet!
		
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So were in agreement then, the tory party.


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## jp5 (Mar 13, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think you'll probably find it was May and her sidekick Olly Robbins who had total control of Brexit or she wouldn't have had all the resignations she had from her Cabinet!
		
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Resignations were just an attempt to save face. When they realised they couldn't deliver what they'd promised to the people, Davis and Raab make a quick exit.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Resignations were just an attempt to save face. When they realised they couldn't deliver what they'd promised to the people, Davis and Raab make a quick exit.
		
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Couldn't deliver or weren't being allowed to try to deliver what they'd promised?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Scoobiesnax said:



			I think you'll probably find it was May and her sidekick Olly Robbins *who had total control of Brexit* or she wouldn't have had all the resignations she had from her Cabinet!
		
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I think you'l probably find no one had total control of Brexit.  As the past few days/weeks/months have demonstrated.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes we can â€œwalk outâ€ but we wonâ€™t be out of the eu on the 29th March.. we wonâ€™t have cut all ties and be done even if we walked out there would be months of sorting out before we were â€œoutâ€
		
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We can leave the EU on March 29 and the current position is that we will. I am not aware anyone said all ties would be cut on March 29, hence the implementation period.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			We can leave the EU on March 29 and the current position is that we will. I am not aware anyone said all ties would be cut on March 29, hence the implementation period.
		
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There are a lot of people out there who think we can just leave , all ties cut.
These people think that everything is so simple and just stick 2 fingers up to the eu

To think an important decision was left in hands of people who think that


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Another election ? Arenâ€™t we sick of them and whatâ€™s going to change , the government wonâ€™t change

Did she not recently win one and also a leadership contest and also a vote of confidence?

Is it really down to one person ? Is she the only person doing the negotiations

Why has no one else stepped up then if itâ€™s all down to May - who is going to step in and do a better job.
		
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The govt might change, that is how elections work. TM also guaranteed that she would not stand as leader in another election so a different leader would be in charge for the Conservatives, different outlook, views etc.

She won an election 2yrs ago, reduced majority, but now can not get legislation through. In that situation you run another election, it is standard practice. She won a vote of confidence, despite her party having no confidence in her, because her MP's are frightened of losing their seats. Self interest took over.

TM is dominating the negotiations, notice the number of resignations from her cabinet including 2 Brexit ministers. She did not take her ministers with her, in particular those tasked with getting Brexit dealt with.

I think there are a number of people who would want to step up but history shows the first person to put the knife in rarely wins so people are standing back and waiting for her to go. Whether they are better, who knows, but I don't see that they can be worse. She really has done nothing of note since becoming PM and she has utterly failed in her one key job.


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## IanM (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			There are a lot of people out there who think we can just leave , all ties cut.
These people think that everything is so simple and just stick 2 fingers up to the eu

To think an important decision was left in hands of people who think that
		
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Yet a major part of the Remain Arguement was that Leave were lying when they claimed Brussels had taken over control of the UK by stealth!


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



*I am not blaming England. That is you just jumping to your sad old tired views.*
More a case of feeling sorry for England's 'locals' who don't seem to have any choice of vote but Labour or Tory.

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 Oh, the irony. Donâ€™t feel sorry for England. We are fine and just thankful we donâ€™t have the SNP to deal with down here.
 You just keep yourself amused and mutter about local issues.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			There are a lot of people out there who think we can just leave , all ties cut.
These people think that everything is so simple and just stick 2 fingers up to the eu

To think an important decision was left in hands of people who think that
		
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I donâ€™t think anyone thinks that. But it might be a convenient argument for the remain camp to make.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No it doesnâ€™t, only 1 Party has had total control over Brexit, to compare it to what happened in the past is irrelevant and a smoke screen.

You are guessing based your opinion of Labour that they would of been just as bad, you could be 100% right or 100% wrong.

The only fact though is, the tory party were totally in control.
		
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OK, so a party can only fulfil its current obligations. Fair enough. (BTW Labour were the only government in power in 2008 so itâ€™s not a deflection, itâ€™s a fair comparison).
So, as Labour have been the only party to be HM Opposition during and since the referendum, are you totally and absolutely content with the way they have conducted their role in regard to Brexit?


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Resignations were just an attempt to save face. When they realised they couldn't deliver what they'd promised to the people, Davis and Raab make a quick exit.
		
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Nothing to do with the fact that they were sidelined by the Europe Dept in No. 10 then? And by staying they would have to take responsibility for negotiations they were not in control of?
Ok then.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 13, 2019)

Our old favourite wee Jimmy Krankie was spouting her usual rubbish about wanting the people to decide in a vote.   At least she's consistent.  Every time she has a referendum go against her wishes, she carries on wanting another one.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

I really have tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, as she has had a very difficult job but... After everything she has said about no deal being better than a bad deal which was also a Tory party manifesto policy, if Mrs May votes against her own policy and votes against no deal tonight, then she really must resign.


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## jp5 (Mar 13, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Couldn't deliver or weren't being allowed to try to deliver what they'd promised?
		
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Either case leads to the first answer. What did Davis turn up for, about 4 hours in however many months he was BrexSec for?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			OK, so a party can only fulfil its current obligations. Fair enough. (BTW Labour were the only government in power in 2008 so itâ€™s not a deflection, itâ€™s a fair comparison).
So, as Labour have been the only party to be HM Opposition during and since the referendum, are you totally and absolutely content with the way they have conducted their role in regard to Brexit?
		
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Were have I said at anytime I am totally and absolutely content with Labour during this process?

I voted Leave, want us to Leave, what Leave actually meant to you, me and everyone else who voted Leave is probably different, we all, however, handed that responsibility to the Government of the day.

Before we entered any negotiations she/they should have sought backing from the Party, produceing a deal that has upset so many of themselves is sheer incompetence.

She had the majority, it is the tory party who have let us down badly.

People can go about Corbyn all day long, he should of and could of been made irrelevant.

As for 2008, the GLOBAL crisis started in the US, but blame Labour, thatâ€™s easier.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Either case leads to the first answer. What did Davis turn up for, about 4 hours in however many months he was BrexSec for?
		
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Not his choice, I believe


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I really have tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, as she has had a very difficult job but... After everything she has said about no deal being better than a bad deal which was also a Tory party manifesto policy, if Mrs May votes against her own policy and votes against no deal tonight, then she really must resign.
		
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The voting of the cabinet is certainly going to be poured over tonight. Not sure how it can continue if the split is as expected. The free vote will really open up the divisions on all sides.


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## User62651 (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I donâ€™t think anyone thinks that. But it might be a convenient argument for the remain camp to make.
		
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'Leave means Leave'
'Brexit means Brexit'

Ring any bells? The Prime Minister repeated it often enough..... but couldn't enact it.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Were have I said at anytime I am totally and absolutely content with Labour during this process?

I voted Leave, want us to Leave, what Leave actually meant to you, me and everyone else who voted Leave is probably different, we all, however, handed that responsibility to the Government of the day.

Before we entered any negotiations she/they should have sought backing from the Party, produceing a deal that has upset so many of themselves is sheer incompetence.

She had the majority, it is the tory party who have let us down badly.

People can go about Corbyn all day long, he should of and could of been made irrelevant.

As for 2008, the GLOBAL crisis started in the US, but blame Labour, thatâ€™s easier.
		
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There you go again. I asked a genuine question on how you think Labour have faired in their job as HM Opposition and you answered by blaming the Tories.
I didnâ€™t claim you have said that you were happy with Labour in Opposition. I asked you if you are happy.
If Labour is going to make a credible case to govern it has to stand on its own merits. It canâ€™t simply say we will be dross, just not as much dross as the evil Tories.
So again. Are you happy with Labourâ€™s role in Opposition in regard to Brexit and if not, why not? Fairly simple question to answer without deflection to be fair.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			'Leave means Leave'
'Brexit means Brexit'

Ring any bells? The Prime Minister repeated it often enough..... but couldn't enact it.
		
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Yup, but she never said we could leave without sorting stuff out. Unless you can point me to a source that shows otherwise?
If she did, there would be no need for an implementation period, would there?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The govt might change, that is how elections work. TM also guaranteed that she would not stand as leader in another election so a different leader would be in charge for the Conservatives, different outlook, views etc.

She won an election 2yrs ago, reduced majority, but now can not get legislation through. In that situation you run another election, it is standard practice. She won a vote of confidence, despite her party having no confidence in her, because her MP's are frightened of losing their seats. Self interest took over.

TM is dominating the negotiations, notice the number of resignations from her cabinet including 2 Brexit ministers. She did not take her ministers with her, in particular those tasked with getting Brexit dealt with.

I think there are a number of people who would want to step up but history shows the first person to put the knife in rarely wins so people are standing back and waiting for her to go. Whether they are better, who knows, but I don't see that they can be worse. She really has done nothing of note since becoming PM and she has utterly failed in her one key job.
		
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Do you really think Labour are going to unseat the Tory government? - they have the most unpopular leader in their history in charge and no other party has the strength to challenge

And because people wonâ€™t challenge TM because they either know they wouldnâ€™t be able to change or they are bottlers because they know the process is a mess from day one

Itâ€™s clear the likes of Rees Mog etc are just sound pieces - if they feel they can do better then step up until then they show zero moral fibre


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you really think Labour are going to unseat the Tory government? - they have the most unpopular leader in their history in charge and no other party has the strength to challenge

And because people wonâ€™t challenge TM because they either know they wouldnâ€™t be able to change or they are bottlers because they know the process is a mess from day one

Itâ€™s clear the likes of Rees Mog etc are just sound pieces - if they feel they can do better then step up until then they show zero moral fibre
		
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Mrs May has already said she wonâ€™t contest another GE as leader. She had to make that concession to win the vote to stay on as leader.
So if a GE is called, May will not be leader and Boris will definitely throw his hat in the ring.


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## User62651 (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Yup, but she never said we could leave without sorting stuff out. Unless you can point me to a source that shows otherwise?
If she did, there would be no need for an implementation period, would there?
		
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You replied to this from pauljames87 -

_There are a lot of people out there who think we can just leave , all ties cut.
These people think that everything is so simple and just stick 2 fingers up to the eu _

I'm saying many leave voting people (not PM) did think the above. She just repeated the chants to try and be popular and portray strength - populism.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			There you go again. I asked a genuine question on how you think Labour have faired in their job as HM Opposition and you answered by blaming the Tories.
I didnâ€™t claim you have said that you were happy with Labour in Opposition. I asked you if you are happy.
If Labour is going to make a credible case to govern it has to stand on its own merits. It canâ€™t simply say we will be dross, just not as much dross as the evil Tories.
So again. Are you happy with Labourâ€™s role in Opposition in regard to Brexit and if not, why not? Fairly simple question to answer without deflection to be fair.
		
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I donâ€™t care and have no interest in Labourâ€™s role in Brexit.
It was in the toryâ€™s remit to make them irrelevant.
You are trying to get me to say:
A. Labour have been great.
B. Labour has been bad.

Why are you or anyone else bringing Labour in to the Brexit argument? If sheâ€™d of got her own house in order whether Labour behaved one way or another or I was happy or not is irrelevant.

PS If it was roles reversed I wouldnâ€™t care about the tories role in Brexit either.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t care and have no interest in Labourâ€™s role in Brexit.
It was in the toryâ€™s remit to make them irrelevant.
You are trying to get me to say:
A. Labour have been great.
B. Labour has been bad.

*Why are you or anyone else bringing Labour in to the Brexit argument? *If sheâ€™d of got her own house in order whether Labour behaved one way or another or I was happy or not is irrelevant.

PS If it was roles reversed I wouldnâ€™t care about the tories role in Brexit either.
		
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#whataboutery


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Our old favourite wee Jimmy Krankie was spouting her usual rubbish about wanting the people to decide in a vote.   At least she's consistent.  Every time she has a referendum go against her wishes, she carries on wanting another one.
		
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Really, viewed from your eyes perhaps but look a bit deeper and you will see that the EU referendum result was a significant boost to Scottish Independence support.
Nicola is playing a canny game at the moment, she just needs to do nothing but twiddle her thumbs, throw in a few well chosen words  and watch the UK Labour and Tory parties self implode.
I still think the best way out of this mucking fuddle is for NI and Scotland to remain in the EU and place the UK border between Solway and Tweed.


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## drdel (Mar 13, 2019)

The vote tonight only takes leaving without a deal on March 29th of the table - we could leave without a deal on the 30th or thereafter !!


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## IanM (Mar 13, 2019)

Yes Doon, I'd  love to see Scotland paying it's way in a fully Federal Europe.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			The vote tonight only takes leaving without a deal on March 29th of the table - we could leave without a deal on the 30th or thereafter !!
		
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I assume that there are certain dates that are specified in the relevant legislation that you can officially leave on. So if the 29th is off the table then the next one will be whatever we negotiate with the EU. Assuming that is the way the vote goes on Thursday and we do manage to negotiate one. And I expect if we, or indeed any other member just says sod this we are leaving when ever they fancy it, they will be in breach of several treaties etc and I expect will become liable for various penalties.


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## ger147 (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I assume that there are certain dates that are specified in the relevant legislation that you can officially leave on. So if the 29th is off the table then the next one will be whatever we negotiate with the EU. Assuming that is the way the vote goes on Thursday and we do manage to negotiate one. And I expect if we, or indeed any other member just says sod this we are leaving when ever they fancy it, they will be in breach of several treaties etc and I expect will become liable for various penalties.
		
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Only 1 date currently specified in the legislation, 29th March.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Only 1 date currently specified in the legislation, 29th March.
		
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Yes everyone knows that.


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			The vote tonight only takes leaving without a deal on March 29th of the table - we could leave without a deal on the 30th or thereafter !!
		
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Government has more or less admitted it that if there is no deal, article 50 will be revoked and Brexit will not happen. Funny debate, SNP pouring plaudits on Tory MPs and letting anyone with their views intervening.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Government has more or less admitted it that if there is no deal, article 50 will be revoked and* Brexit will not happen*. Funny debate, SNP pouring plaudits on Tory MPs and letting anyone with their views intervening.
		
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Where have they said that?  Chances are that a no deal will be voted down and that they will then vote to ask for an extension of article 50.  But between now and the 29th TMay could well come back and try a third meaningful vote with the option being vote for this or chances are there would be no Brexit. The DUP and ERG would then fall into line and once all the tory party are behind a deal it will then be a lot harder for others to oppose it as they immediately are seen as not enacting the will of the people when *all* the tory party wants to do that. And hey presto, deal agreed.  

Even as someone who would be delighted if Brexit never happens I still am pretty sure it will.  And it would not surprise me if a deal is agreed before the 29th.


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Where have they said that?  Chances are that a no deal will be voted down and that they will then vote to ask for an extension of article 50.  But between now and the 29th TMay could well come back and try a third meaningful vote with the option being vote for this or chances are there would be no Brexit. The DUP and ERG would then fall into line and once all the tory party are behind a deal it will then be a lot harder for others to oppose it as they immediately are seen as not enacting the will of the people when *all* the tory party wants to do that. And hey presto, deal agreed. 

Even as someone who would be delighted if Brexit never happens I still am pretty sure it will.  And it would not surprise me if a deal is agreed before the 29th.
		
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Maybe I have just lost what little faith and optimism I had in our democratic system.


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Really got to admire the deflection on to Labourâ€™s position or the what Labour would do to get in to power etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

We are in this mess because of the Tory Party and they have done everything people accuse Labour of doing to stay in power.

And when that argument fails, letâ€™s use the Comrade Corbyn and the Abbott canâ€™t count cards.

Time for people to recognise whoâ€™s got us in this mess and make them solely responsible.
		
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The Tory party were never in control of Brexit. The referendum was a sop to the eurosceptic faction in the Tory party and to take the wind out of UKIP's growing popularity.

To a certain extent, parliament came together when agreeing to offer the public a referendum and to triggering Article 50, but without cross-party support it didn't matter what any deal looked like it was never going to fly - unless it included unicorns.

And May and Olly Robbins have made sure the deal is as unpopular as it could be.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The Tory party were never in control of Brexit. The referendum was a sop to the eurosceptic faction in the Tory party and to take the wind out of UKIP's growing popularity.

To a certain extent, parliament came together when agreeing to offer the public a referendum and to triggering Article 50, but without cross-party support it didn't matter what any deal looked like it was never going to fly - unless it included unicorns.

And May and Olly Robbins have made sure the deal is as unpopular as it could be.
		
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Iâ€™m not sure if you are agreeing with me or blaming May and Robbins (tories) only. 

Either way is out of Labourâ€™s control.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Maybe I have just lost what little faith and optimism I had in our democratic system.
		
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Stealing from someone cleverer than me on Twitter

_'Any referendum can be either democratic or irreversible, but not both. Just as no parliament can bind a successor, it follows that no electorate can do either. Any democracy can change its mind at any time. Else it is not a democracy.'_

So the question then is how long before an electorate can change it's mind?  Does the outcome of the advisory referendum have to be enacted before the electorate can change it's mind on that matter? I don't really have an answer to those questions and I'm sure there are good arguments either side. But I think it is a bit more nuanced then just claiming if we don't leave come what may on the 29th March then democracy is dead.


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## Foxholer (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No it doesnâ€™t, only 1 Party has had total control over Brexit, to compare it to what happened in the past is irrelevant and a smoke screen.

You are guessing based your opinion of Labour that they would of been just as bad, you could be 100% right or 100% wrong.

The only fact though is, the tory party were totally in control.
		
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We'll have to disagree then!

It was a poisoned chalice whoever picked it up! The EU's position woud have been exactly the same and the negotiations would have been just as fruitless! I defy anyone to show what 'better' leaving deal Labour or even a 'combined' team (or even ERG) could have negotiated. 

The only 'party' that was (is) 'totally in control' was (is) the EU's negotiating team!

My reference to the Financial Crisis was purely to demonstrate 'who gets the blame' for such disasters, nothing more. Basically, folk want/need to blame someone for negative events and those who happen to be in government at the time are the obvious target!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			We'll have to disagree then!

It was a poisoned chalice whoever picked it up! The EU's position woud have been exactly the same and the negotiations would have been just as fruitless! I defy anyone to show what 'better' leaving deal Labour or even a 'combined' team (or even ERG) could have negotiated.

The only 'party' that was (is) 'totally in control' was (is) the EU's negotiating team!

My reference to the Financial Crisis was purely to demonstrate 'who gets the blame' for such disasters, nothing more. Basically, folk want/need to blame someone for negative events and those who happen to be in government at the time are the obvious target!
		
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Iâ€™d of had more respect for TM if sheâ€™d of told the EU were to stick their deal and showed some leadership, the last 3 months in particular have been a total waste of time, EU wonâ€™t budge, DUP wonâ€™t budge, SNP & Labour plans no good.
But not her fault and a poison chalice! Nah, sheâ€™s strung the Country along and embarrassed us.


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Stealing from someone cleverer than me on Twitter

_'Any referendum can be either democratic or irreversible, but not both. Just as no parliament can bind a successor, it follows that no electorate can do either. Any democracy can change its mind at any time. Else it is not a democracy.'_

So the question then is how long before an electorate can change it's mind?  Does the outcome of the advisory referendum have to be enacted before the electorate can change it's mind on that matter? I don't really have an answer to those questions and I'm sure there are good arguments either side. But I think it is a bit more nuanced then just claiming if we don't leave come what may on the 29th March then democracy is dead.
		
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As I'm Welsh and not a Scot I was foolish to believe the "once in a lifetime" statement. Unless someone is about to organise a hit, I see me lasting quite a few more years.


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## Foxholer (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			...
If Labour is going to make a credible case to govern it has to stand on its own merits. It canâ€™t simply say we will be dross, just not as much dross as the evil Tories.
So again. Are you happy with Labourâ€™s role in Opposition in regard to Brexit and if not, why not? Fairly simple question to answer without deflection to be fair.
		
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Leadership (and speech-making) issues notwthstanding, I believe Labour have done a pretty reasonable job of 'being an opposition'! They HAVE said what they would do differently to Tories; it's just that I don't believe they would be able to have any better actual results than the Tories have! And fwiw, if Labour was in government and Tories opposition, my view would be the same (Tories would be just as ineffective as Labour)!


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## Imurg (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Stealing from someone cleverer than me on Twitter

_'Any referendum can be either democratic or irreversible, but not both. Just as no parliament can bind a successor, it follows that no electorate can do either. Any democracy can change its mind at any time. Else it is not a democracy.'_

So the question then is how long before an electorate can change it's mind?  Does the outcome of the advisory referendum have to be enacted before the electorate can change it's mind on that matter? I don't really have an answer to those questions and I'm sure there are good arguments either side. But I think it is a bit more nuanced then just claiming if we don't leave come what may on the 29th March then democracy is dead.
		
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More that faith in Politicians is dead.
Politicians offered us the question and said they would enact the result.
If they can't give the majority what they voted for in, let's face it, the biggest thing in UK politics for years, then how can we trust them to do anything?
They can promise us anything in the run up to the next GE
How can we have any faith that they will do it?
Having "promised" to enact the leave vote, if they fail to do that they are slapping the faces of all those who voted to leave. Plus a number of those who voted to stay who have accepted the result.


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## IanM (Mar 13, 2019)

No HK, dont worry, leaving is not allowed under any circumstances...   No vote against them has ever been allowed to stand, just as the UK Ref will not be.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			We'll have to disagree then!

It was a poisoned chalice whoever picked it up! The EU's position woud have been exactly the same and the negotiations would have been just as fruitless! *I defy anyone to show what 'better' leaving deal Labour or even a 'combined' team (or even ERG) could have negotiated*.

The only 'party' that was (is) 'totally in control' was (is) the EU's negotiating team!

My reference to the Financial Crisis was purely to demonstrate 'who gets the blame' for such disasters, nothing more. Basically, folk want/need to blame someone for negative events and those who happen to be in government at the time are the obvious target!
		
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I would argue that Labour has less extremes with regards to Europe in the party than the Tories do.  Yes Labour do have a few hard line Brexiteers that would fit in perfectly in the ERG, but I would say they they would have been more likely to come up with a more 'party wide' agreed position to go to the EU with.  And chances are that it would have been a more softer version what the EU would be more likely to accept. 

All complete speculation of course but I've said it before, our major failing was that we never had an agreed position on what we actually wanted and TMay has tried and failed to please too many disparate factions, mostly in an attempt to keep the Tory party from fracturing over all this.


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2019)

It is increasingly obvious that it's the members of Parliament that haven't understood what they have been voting for over the last 2 years not the members of the public that voted in the referendum.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 13, 2019)

IanM said:



			No HK, dont worry, leaving is not allowed under any circumstances...   No vote against them has ever been allowed to stand, just as the UK Ref will not be.
		
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The EU need to prove that it respects the voters, and democracy by voting against an extension if and when it comes to them.


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			The EU need to prove that it respects the voters, and democracy by voting against an extension if and when it comes to them.
		
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Interesting how many "no deal" agreements have been passed today in the EU Parliament adding to the many others already been made that were read out in the debate today. Funny how these aren't published anywhere in the British media.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Imurg said:



			More that faith in Politicians is dead.
Politicians offered us the question and said they would enact the result.
If they can't give the majority what they voted for in, let's face it, the biggest thing in UK politics for years, then how can we trust them to do anything?
They can promise us anything in the run up to the next GE
How can we have any faith that they will do it?
Having "promised" to enact the leave vote, if they fail to do that they are slapping the faces of all those who voted to leave. Plus a number of those who voted to stay who have accepted the result.
		
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Don't disagree with any of that. Everyone has been let down by inept politicians from the very start of the whole process. But that to me does not mean democracy is completely dead, more that we really need a better calibre of politician who understands how to compromise for the betterment of society as a whole.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

IanM said:



			No HK, dont worry, leaving is not allowed under any circumstances...  * No vote against them has ever been allowed to stand*, just as the UK Ref will not be.
		
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hey, if the tories could of got their &^^& together last night we'd be out on the 29th.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

The sooner this smoke and mirrors is over with the better, the MPs donâ€™t want brexit. They are trying to make such a hash of it that they can go â€œwe tried our best but it was impossibleâ€ if they wanted us to leave it would have been sorted


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## Foxholer (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Stealing from someone cleverer than me on Twitter

_'Any referendum can be either democratic or irreversible, but not both. Just as no parliament can bind a successor, it follows that no electorate can do either. Any democracy can change its mind *at any time*. Else it is not a democracy.'_
...
		
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I disagree with the bit in bold - at least practically! Otherwise I agree!

That's why the UK version of 'democracy' is (normally) a 'representative' one, as opposed to a 'direct' one! The referendum result directed (h'mm!) the government to Leave, so it is up to the government to do exactly that - while maintaining the best interests of the UK! Anything alternative view is, imo, simply an excuse to overturn the result of the earlier referendum!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I disagree with the bit in bold - at least practically! Otherwise I agree!

That's why the UK version of 'democracy' is (normally) a 'representative' one, as opposed to a 'direct' one! The referendum result directed (h'mm!) the government to Leave, *so it is up to the government to do exactly that - while maintaining the best interests of the UK*! Anything alternative view is, imo, simply an excuse to overturn the result of the earlier referendum!
		
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I think we are seeing what happens when when there is a majority in parliament that feel that leaving the EU is not in the best interests of the UK.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t care and have no interest in Labourâ€™s role in Brexit.
It was in the toryâ€™s remit to make them irrelevant.
You are trying to get me to say:
A. Labour have been great.
B. Labour has been bad.

Why are you or anyone else bringing Labour in to the Brexit argument? If sheâ€™d of got her own house in order whether Labour behaved one way or another or I was happy or not is irrelevant.

PS If it was roles reversed I wouldnâ€™t care about the tories role in Brexit either.
		
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I am not trying to get you to say anything. You seem intent on defending Labour on all fronts but donâ€™t seem to be able to defend them on their own record, other than they are not as bad as anyone else. That might be good enough for you but it isnâ€™t for me or I suspect enough voters to get them elected.
I believe that the Opposition have an important part to play in our democracy and holding the government to account. But they have flip-flopped over Brexit and seem to be at odds with each other just as much as the Tories. The Tories have been there for the taking and Labour has not only failed to do so but have actually managed to lose ground in the polls against the worst government of my lifetime. That tells me they wouldnâ€™t have done any better on Brexit if they were in power than the Tory government has. That is my view. I was just wondering if you agreed with me or do you really think Labour can do no wrong?


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think we are seeing what happens when when there is a majority in parliament that feel that leaving the EU is not in the best interests of the UK.
		
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 Understatement of the year!
All of which would be fine. Except the majority of the nation disagrees with them. Oh, and itâ€™s the majority of the nation who put MPâ€™s into Parliament. So you have MPâ€™s openly defying the people they represent. That can never end well.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I am not trying to get you to say anything. You seem intent on defending Labour on all fronts but donâ€™t seem to be able to defend them on their own record, other than they are not as bad as anyone else. That might be good enough for you but it isnâ€™t for me or I suspect enough voters to get them elected.
I believe that the Opposition have an important part to play in our democracy and holding the government to account. But they have flip-flopped over Brexit and seem to be at odds with each other just as much as the Tories. The Tories have been there for the taking and Labour has not only failed to do so but have actually managed to lose ground in the polls against the worst government of my lifetime. That tells me they wouldnâ€™t have done any better on Brexit if they were in power than the Tory government has. That is my view. I was just wondering if you agreed with me or do you really think Labour can do no wrong?
		
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Seriously, what part of, I have no opinion or interest in Labour on Brexit do you not get?

I am not defending or praising them. They could of been the greatest opposition ever with the greatest Brexit plan, the tories still had it and do have it in their control to ignore them.

Why are you so intent on bringing Labour in to the Brexit argument? Itâ€™s a deflection and red herring imo.

Everybody outside the tories only saw the deal 3 months ago, what about the previous 2 years!


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Understatement of the year!
All of which would be fine. *Except the majority of the nation disagrees with them*. Oh, and itâ€™s the majority of the nation who put MPâ€™s into Parliament. So you have MPâ€™s openly defying the people they represent. That can never end well.
		
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Not strictly factually correct is it ?


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not strictly factually correct is it ?
		
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The majority  that " could be bothered to vote" might fit.


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## Foxholer (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think we are seeing what happens when when there is a majority in parliament that feel that leaving the EU is not in the best interests of the UK.
		
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Indeed! But 'it was ever thus'!

Cameron's blunder was thinking that the UK public would feel the same - or could not be convinced otherwise!


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## drdel (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think we are seeing what happens when when there is a majority in parliament that feel that leaving the EU is not in the best interests of the UK.
		
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I agree but the defectors from the result of the referendum who were in Parliament should have had their argument before the majority across the Parties invoked Art 50 (or before they let a majority agree to holding a referendum)!


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## Foxholer (Mar 13, 2019)

Total confusion!!


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## Old Skier (Mar 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Total confusion!!
		
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That was the plan Moriarty .


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Was really expecting a landslide vote against no deal... interesting.
		
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May ordered her MPs to vote against it so not surprised


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## bladeplayer (Mar 13, 2019)

So at the min 
Its NO to No Deal 
Its NO to TM and EU current deal 
Its NO to looking for extension 

Is that right ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			So at the min
Its NO to No Deal
Its NO to TM and EU current deal
Its NO to looking for extension

Is that right ?
		
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The extension vote is tomorrow I believe but you have the rest right


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## bladeplayer (Mar 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The extension vote is tomorrow I believe but you have the rest right
		
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Thank u . Was not sure if i had that right . 
Cant see 27 agreeing to extension with elections coming up . 

Dont know anymore ðŸ˜•


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Thank u . Was not sure if i had that right .
Cant see 27 agreeing to extension with elections coming up .

Dont know anymore ðŸ˜•
		
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No idea mate - itâ€™s am embarrassing mess , they have pretty voted that we wonâ€™t ever leave with a no deal so unless a deal is done we wonâ€™t leave I guess ? All a bit of a joke


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			Understatement of the year!
All of which would be fine. Except the majority of the nation disagrees with them. Oh, and itâ€™s the majority of the nation who put MPâ€™s into Parliament. So you have MPâ€™s openly defying the people they represent. That can never end well.
		
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You still donâ€™t get how our parliament works. 

We elect people to make decisions for us because they have more information than we do. If they think itâ€™s correct NOT to Brexit then they should work to stop it from happening. 

Sadly they arenâ€™t altruistic and will seek to secure their own future in parliament even when they know the masses have made mistakes, like when they voted for Brexit.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You still donâ€™t get how our parliament works.

We elect people to make decisions for us because they have more information than we do. If they think itâ€™s correct NOT to Brexit then they should work to stop it from happening.

Sadly they arenâ€™t altruistic and will seek to secure their own future in parliament even when they know the masses have made mistakes, like when they voted for Brexit.
		
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Spot on. The MPs know things that we will never. This vote should never have been given to us


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## MendieGK (Mar 13, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Spot on. The MPs know things that we will never. This vote should never have been given to us
		
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Absolutely agree with this. We vote in these people to make the decisions for us as itâ€™s their job. Giving Gary and his from the local pub a say was always a bad idea.


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

Whips them before a revote and loses by more. Tories doing whatâ€™s right for the country... unusual.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 13, 2019)

MendieGK said:



			Absolutely agree with this. We vote in these people to make the decisions for us as itâ€™s their job. Giving Gary and his from the local pub a say was always a bad idea.
		
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We vote them in because this is the system & we have no other choice.  Having seen their pathetic performance I find it impossible to believe that these are the 650 people best suited to running the country.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously, what part of, I have no opinion or interest in Labour on Brexit do you not get?

I am not defending or praising them. They could of been the greatest opposition ever with the greatest Brexit plan, the tories still had it and do have it in their control to ignore them.

Why are you so intent on bringing Labour in to the Brexit argument? Itâ€™s a deflection and red herring imo.

Everybody outside the tories only saw the deal 3 months ago, what about the previous 2 years!
		
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I thought you might say that.


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## robinthehood (Mar 13, 2019)

Well done brexiters,  you both managed to get what you want and also cancel it . ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You still donâ€™t get how our parliament works.

We elect people to make decisions for us because they have more information than we do. If they think itâ€™s correct NOT to Brexit then they should work to stop it from happening.

Sadly they arenâ€™t altruistic and will seek to secure their own future in parliament even when they know the masses have made mistakes, like when they voted for Brexit.
		
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You dont appear to understand it either.  We do infact vote these people into parliament to make decisions for us but when they are elected on a platform and manifesto for the poltical party they represent we expect (and rightly so) they will act and vote to respect the policies this represents. If they then decide to ignore this platform and take a personal contrary view they should resign the whip and morally either resign or seek a bi-election as an independent or candidate for another party. 

If a matter arrises of such constitutional change that they feel the Public should make the ultimate decision then we have the instrument available in referenda to do this.   We did invoke a referendum  when we decide to join the EU and when the vote for this was 'Yes' to join there was no question of another referedum once we had found out more detail on the terms of joining.

In conclusion, you are correct we elect them to represent us but they also have a duty to listen to us when they ask us a question and  when the result of our decision is voted into law to ensure it is carried through irrespective of their personal preferences.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Well done brexiters,  you both managed to get what you want and also cancel it . ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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Another pointless post that adds nothing to the debate.ðŸ™„


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

MendieGK said:



			Absolutely agree with this. We vote in these people to make the decisions for us as itâ€™s their job. Giving Gary and his from the local pub a say was always a bad idea.
		
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Watching the recent parliamentary debacle unfold do you honestly believe these people are able to make sensible decisions for us.


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## robinthehood (Mar 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another pointless post that adds nothing to the debate.
		
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Lol  , like every single post you make 
 Face it,  you had your chance but your poster boy rees mog messed it up. ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another pointless post that adds nothing to the debate.ðŸ™„
		
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This isnâ€™t only a debate forum - itâ€™s also for people sharing their views.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Lol  , like every single post you make
Face it,  you had your chance but your poster boy rees mog messed it up. ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚
		
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Assinous.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			This isnâ€™t only a debate forum - itâ€™s also for people sharing their views.
		
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Do you really consider that a view worth sharing, it's pathetic.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You still donâ€™t get how our parliament works.

We elect people to make decisions for us because they have more information than we do. If they think itâ€™s correct NOT to Brexit then they should work to stop it from happening.

Sadly they arenâ€™t altruistic and will seek to secure their own future in parliament even when they know the masses have made mistakes, like when they voted for Brexit.
		
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I understand very well how Parliament works, thank you.
To use your logic, we should only be allowed an opinion until we have cast our ballot. After that we should devolve our opinion to the successful candidate, whether we voted for him / her or not. Even if they abandon their pre election promises once they are elected, as many have done here.
If you really believe that, why are you even on this thread?
After today, how can you possibly say that our MPâ€™s know more than us? They donâ€™t even know how a basic negotiation works! They have voted to tie the hands of their own negotiating team.
How many MPâ€™s do you think have ever been in business dealing with companies in the EU? I have done it every day for the past 20 years. Please donâ€™t tell me they know more about it than me. 
If they did know one jot about business importing from and exporting to the EU, they certainly wouldnâ€™t be leaving this so late and creating so much uncertainty. I deal with one multi-million Â£ business who canâ€™t even order a car for one of their execs for delivery in 3 weeks because it comes from Germany and they donâ€™t know what the cost will be and if there will be any duty to pay.
You are only saying the public are too thick and MPâ€™s are so clever because the public voted for something you donâ€™t like. End of.
MPâ€™s know more than us? You are having a laugh.


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## robinthehood (Mar 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you really consider that a view.
		
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Of course it's a view
 Your only chance to leave the EU has passed you by. No amount of childish insults from you can change that.  ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I thought you might say that.
		
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Why ask then?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™d of had more respect for TM if sheâ€™d of told the EU were to stick their deal and showed some leadership, the last 3 months in particular have been a total waste of time, EU wonâ€™t budge, DUP wonâ€™t budge, SNP & Labour plans no good.
But not her fault and a poison chalice! Nah, sheâ€™s strung the Country along and embarrassed us.
		
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The more I think about it the more I am convinced that the ERG and DUP will fold and vote for the existing deal. The alternative would be either a long delay or a softer brexit to get labour on board. 

I tells you, she will get her deal passed soon.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Of course it's a view
Your only chance to leave the EU has passed you by. No amount of childish insults from you can change that.  ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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I do agree you are an expert on childish comments so will not take that away from you. ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

So the no deal vote was passed with a majority of less than 1% of MPâ€™s.
I wonder why there have been no calls for a second vote?


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Why ask then? 

Click to expand...

Letâ€™s just say I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoped for something different.


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## Sweep (Mar 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Of course it's a view
Your only chance to leave the EU has passed you by. No amount of childish insults from you can change that.  ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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What makes you think we are not leaving? And what makes you think this was the only chance?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			What makes you think we are not leaving? And what makes you think this was the only chance?
		
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No, its not we are leaving its only me apparently ðŸ¤”


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## robinthehood (Mar 13, 2019)

Sweep said:



			What makes you think we are not leaving? And what makes you think this was the only chance?
		
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Hey I'm.sure we will do to  a degree but not the hard stop that some would want . Probably end up still tied to the EU apron strings but without out any influence what so ever.


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## TreeSeeker (Mar 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Hey I'm.sure we will do to  a degree but not the hard stop that some would want . Probably end up still tied to the EU apron strings but without out any influence what so ever.
		
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There wouldn't be anything worse than a half exit hell, i have to follow this crap everyday for work, and as someone earlier said, I cannot believe the lack of understanding many of our MP's have been showing through all this.

The amendment on no-deal that they passed today, really has left me baffled.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			The more I think about it the more I am convinced that the ERG and DUP will fold and vote for the existing deal. The alternative would be either a long delay or a softer brexit to get labour on board.

I tells you, she will get her deal passed soon.
		
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You may well be correct although I think the situation can become even more complex yet.   I have explained in previous posts that underpinnig all the current shinanigans there is still the position in law which is being ignored but has the oppertunity of biting the whole thing in the bum.    No matter how many times votes are made on taking no deal off the table unless the current law is chaged we will indeed leave the EU on the given date of March 29th.   Dont write off the Brexiteers to quickly, should there be an attempt to change the current leave date there are parliamentary procedures that can delay and disrupt new or changed law from happening.   Nothing is over until its over.


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## Hobbit (Mar 14, 2019)

Interesting piece from Sky News this morning. Angela Eagle, Labour MP, asked the Speaker about whether or not a proposition could be repeatedly brought before the House. Bearing in mind May's deal has be beaten twice, and the expectation that it will be brought before the House again with a few minor tweaks. His response was he would check the rule book.

The Speaker does have the authority to stop a proposition from being repeatedly before the House. As he's very much a Remain supporter, and in the twilight of his time in the Chair, there is some suggestions that he could well block it if it doesn't have substantial changes.

That's heaping chaos on top of chaos but, equally, someone needs to break the cycle of stupidity.


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## Hobbit (Mar 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You may well be correct although I think the situation can become even more complex yet.   I have explained in previous posts that underpinnig all the current shinanigans there is still the position in law which is being ignored but has the oppertunity of biting the whole thing in the bum.    No matter how many times votes are made on taking no deal off the table unless the current law is chaged we will indeed leave the EU on the given date of March 29th.   Dont write off the Brexiteers to quickly, should there be an attempt to change the current leave date there are parliamentary procedures that can delay and disrupt new or changed law from happening.   Nothing is over until its over.
		
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And that leaving under a No Deal scenario may even be forced onto the UK by the EU. Imagine the conversation; "sorry but you've had all the time you can legally have. We in the EU have our own house to run. Bye."


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## spongebob59 (Mar 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And that leaving under a No Deal scenario may even be forced onto the UK by the EU. Imagine the conversation; "sorry but you've had all the time you can legally have. We in the EU have our own house to run. Bye."
		
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Expect them to allow this for another huge wad of cash.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			So the no deal vote was passed with a majority of less than 1% of MPâ€™s.
I wonder why there have been no calls for a second vote?
		
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There was, wasnâ€™t there? And it passed with a greater majority?


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## bladeplayer (Mar 14, 2019)

To me and this will upset some on here . This goes back to the lies at the start 2 yrs ago . People voted on promises that could never be delivered . Im not saying it would have changed the result or not .  Im just saying. Promising something and delivering it are very different things 
ALL politicains do this on a regular basis in regional and national elections and it gets forgotten . Now its in the world news it cant be hidden 
Just my olinion tho


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## chrisd (Mar 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And that leaving under a No Deal scenario may even be forced onto the UK by the EU. Imagine the conversation; "sorry but you've had all the time you can legally have. We in the EU have our own house to run. Bye."
		
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With the returning answer "ok ta very much, it's been fun but dont come running to us when you're broke, as we obviously dont owe you the Â£39 billion now"


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...I have explained in previous posts that underpinnig all the current shinanigans there is still the position in law which is being ignored but has the oppertunity of biting the whole thing in the bum.    No matter how many times votes are made on taking no deal off the table unless the current law is chaged we will indeed leave the EU on the given date of March 29th.   Dont write off the Brexiteers to quickly, should there be an attempt to change the current leave date there are parliamentary procedures that can delay and disrupt new or changed law from happening.   Nothing is over until its over.
		
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While I agree with all the above, I have also shown that, procedurally, changing the 29/3/19 date only requires a Minister to issue an appropriate Regulation. 

So it's a very simple matter, involving no parliamentary time to change the Leave Date in the appropriate UK Law. 

The greatest challenge about getting the date changed is whether the EU will allow it - as it (first) requires unanimous agreement from the EU Council! Without that UK *will* leave on 29/3/19 - with No Deal - as that is 2 years from the date UK triggered Article 50. I believe that, in Parliament, only the ERG group would be happy with that!


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

To me, the big question now is 'what would May, and Parliament, do if the EU refuse to allow a change of date?'. 

Does she go back to Parliament with her deal again? I'm sure that some/many, though likely not enough, would accept that instead of the 'guaranteed' alternative of No Deal. 

That situation does, however, mean that for the first time, May can apply some 'brinkmanship' to the EU negotiation team and perhaps (must?) get further/better concessions from them - at least about the possible permanence of the backstop arrangement. 

I believe it's (only) that area that is preventing many MPs from agreeing her deal. If changes could be made that would mean that Geoffrey Cox, as Attorney General, could issue advice that these changes meant that the backstop arrangements were 'legally binding' as temporary only, then I'm certain a significant number of dissenters from May's deal could be convinced to agree to it!


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## spongebob59 (Mar 14, 2019)

Pestons view :

Everyone is getting over-excited.
Calm down.
The idea that Theresa Mayâ€™s will seize victory from the jaws of humiliation with her constitutionally dubious decision to put her Brexit deal to a vote for a record-breaking third time next week is highly questionable.
First even if the Attorney General admits with the full magisterial regret for which he is notorious that he stupidly excused from his initial interpretation of the palimpsested backstop that - after all - there is a unilateral escape route from the backstop via the Vienna Convention, this would be just one hired lawyerâ€™s opinion, and an oddly convenient one at that.
It wonâ€™t change all Brexitersâ€™ minds.
And as Steve Baker, their remorselessly rational leader said on my show last night, he wonâ€™t be bullied or bribed by the PM to change his mind and back her deal, even faced with the threat from her that Brexit could be delayed till long after weâ€™re all dead.
So if Northern Irelandâ€™s DUP MPs are seduced by Coxâ€™s Viennese Waltz with Jacob Rees-Mogg (who right at the end of Tuesday nightâ€™s Brexit debate prompted Steve Barclay to â€œfindâ€ Coxâ€™s lost words on the benign impact of the Vienna Convention), some 20 odd Tory Brexiteers probably wonâ€™t be.
And May loses again.
But let us allow her to dream. Letâ€™s assume her combination of Coxâ€™s carrot and her NeverExit stick (her threat that the only allowable Brexit delay sees us participating in elections to the EU parliament) corals all the Tory ERG Brexiters, even then she would win by just the thinnest, most gossamer-like of margins.
And thatâ€™s a huge problem for her.
Because to make a legal reality of her deal, she then has to win a whole series of votes on the contentious facilitating legislation, most notably the Withdrawal Agreement Bill.
And as the business secretary Greg Clark also said on my show last night there is every chance she would fail to get that legislation through, even if she wins meaningful vote 3 next week.
For the avoidance of doubt EU leaders and Brussels negotiatiors are acutely aware that if she wins by just a handful of votes, her Brexit would still be in jeopardy. Which is why they will be wary at the EU council in seven days of giving the UK even a modest Brexit delay, were her vote to pass by one or two.
They and Clark want a much more comfortable margin of victory in the back-from-the-dead Brexit vote.
Which could only be delivered if, as Clark implies she must, she reaches across to Labour by scrubbing her red line that the UK must never join a customs union.
But that in turn could see Corbyn facilitating what his colleagues scornfully see as â€œMayâ€™s Brexitâ€ and permanently rupturing his party, given the religious passion of some Labour MPs and members for a referendum.
Every route to a rational, managed Brexit is fraught with challenges and contradictions.
The underlying Brexit reality is that chaos and uncertainty still rein.
And although at some point soon I may drop my central projection that a slightly delayed no-deal Brexit, in May or June, remains the probable outcome - because it is the default under UK and EU law, and the law is all we have - I have not done so yet


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

What are the odds on article 50 being revoked when the eu say no to extending date then MPs to claim we will trigger it again when the time is right.. then the rug will be lifted and brexit will be swept under it 

Job done


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 14, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			What are the odds on article 50 being revoked when the eu say no to extending date then MPs to claim we will trigger it again when the time is right.. then the rug will be lifted and brexit will be swept under it

Job done
		
Click to expand...

100 to 1? if the EU say no to an extension and we do not have a deal by the 29th then we will leave on the 29th with no deal.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			To me, the big question now is 'w*hat would May, and Parliament, do if the EU refuse to allow a change of date?'.*

*Does she go back to Parliament with her deal again? I'm sure that some/many, though likely not enough, would accept that instead of the 'guaranteed' alternative of No Deal.*

That situation does, however, mean that for the first time, May can apply some 'brinkmanship' to the EU negotiation team and perhaps (must?) get further/better concessions from them - at least about the possible permanence of the backstop arrangement.

I believe it's (only) that area that is preventing many MPs from agreeing her deal. If changes could be made that would mean that Geoffrey Cox, as Attorney General, could issue advice that these changes meant that the backstop arrangements were 'legally binding' as temporary only, then I'm certain a significant number of dissenters from May's deal could be convinced to agree to it!
		
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Yes she would. I doubt the EU would change their fundamental position on the backstop as twice TMay has told them that she thinks the deal they have agreed will pass and it hasn't. And from everything I've heard they are royally fed up of us and our inability to get this done.  And given the stark choice between no deal and Mays deal a few Labour MPs may well vote for the deal.


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## Imurg (Mar 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			100 to 1? if the EU say no to an extension and we do not have a deal by the 29th then we will leave on the 29th with no deal.
		
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Can they change that in law? Would they have time?


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## DRW (Mar 14, 2019)

I think the people in power do not still get it, why the Brexit vote happened. Going to be interesting the next general election and whether the main parties see a massive shift away from them.

Almost 100% the EU will agree to a long delay, as it is all in their favour, still get money, get the larger companies moving jobs across to other EU countries over time and hopefully at some time the brexit will die.

Now do we have the balls to ride this baby out.....and call eus bluff.

If we go out with No deal and in 10 years time we are a success, then that would be the worst case situation for the EU future.

Anyway popcorn eating continuing.


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			What are the odds on article 50 being revoked when the eu say no to extending date then MPs to claim we will trigger it again when the time is right.. then the rug will be lifted and brexit will be swept under it 

Job done
		
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Current betting odds re. A50 being revoked:

Revoke A50 - 21/5
Don't Revoke A50 - 1/12


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Can they change that in law? Would they have time?
		
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Yes and yes, assuming the HoC's voted in favour of it.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 14, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Can they change that in law? Would they have time?
		
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There would not need to be any chance in law for us to leave on the 29th with no deal as that is still the default position.  The vote last night was only advisory so is not legally binding (and I won't insert joke here about following advisory referendums )


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			100 to 1? if the EU say no to an extension and we do not have a deal by the 29th then we will leave on the 29th with no deal.
		
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You forgot secret option c

Revoke article 50

Which we can do at anytime 

We donâ€™t need agreement from any states

Once revoked brexit is cancelled

100/1? Iâ€™ll take Â£10 on that if you fancy backing your odds ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			You forgot secret option c

Revoke article 50

Which we can do at anytime

We donâ€™t need agreement from any states

Once revoked brexit is cancelled

100/1? Iâ€™ll take Â£10 on that if you fancy backing your odds ðŸ˜‚
		
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I'd be prepared to spend significantly more than a tenner to watch Rees-Mogg's reaction to that!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 14, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			You forgot secret option c

Revoke article 50

Which we can do at anytime

We donâ€™t need agreement from any states

Once revoked brexit is cancelled

100/1? Iâ€™ll take Â£10 on that if you fancy backing your odds ðŸ˜‚
		
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It's political suicide if that would be done without some form of referendum where it obtained a significant majority.  I'd argue a very managed soft Brexit is the only possible way out of this.  I imagine that no one will be particularly happy with that but over time we'll move on.  Any of the other options (no deal, revoke article 50) will just lead to massive divisions in society and parliament and years and years of arguing, blaming the other side etc etc.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'd be prepared to spend significantly more than a tenner to watch Rees-Mogg's reaction to that! 

Click to expand...

I think Mark Francois would be even funnier.  At least you feel there is some form of rational argument and thought process with Rees-Mogg no mater how much I disagree with it, Francois just seems like some member of a religious cult who has been brainwashed and is mad as a box of frogs.


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## IanM (Mar 14, 2019)

Been right at every stage so far.... still on course for take lots of cash off various people!


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## spongebob59 (Mar 14, 2019)

Amendment going in to take 2nd referendum off the table, be interesting to see if speaker allows it.


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## User62651 (Mar 14, 2019)

Did May properly lose the plot a bit yesterday?

It went something like -
When the first vote on the amendment went through (No 'No Deal' ever), that caught her off guard, she'd thought she would win that one but lost narrowly. Then panic ensued and she arranged a 3 line whip to get all her MPs (including ministers who are supposed to obey) to vote down her own Govt motion on the main vote of 'We wont leave with a No Deal on the 29th March'. She was then seen in the lobby voting against her own motion and so in a round about way voting for a No Deal herself and took some stick from MPs for it - Jess Phillips who's never afraid to speak her mind told May to her face 'It was a dsigrace'.
A number of cabinet and junior minsiters abstained, some other Brexiteer MPs later calling for their resignations because it was a 3 line whip. Farage raging. One minister did resign I believe. The ministers that abstained must know that's very serious but May has so little control she can't do diddly about that it seems. Those ministers were caught bewteeen a rock and a hard place though - could not be seen to vote for No Deal or they'd have been vilified for it, May put them in an impossible position. They all claim to back PM on leaving with a deal however.

Clearly she wanted to keep a No Deal option alive all along (legally it is still alive as others have noted above) but to have it 'alive' for a later date after 29th in a commons voting sense, if not a legal one.

Is that about the size of it?

Desperate stuff and not the behaviour of a PM/leader in control. How is she continually able to survive as PM? Shambles.


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## Beezerk (Mar 14, 2019)

I think the word you were looking for is omnishambles ðŸ¤£


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Did May properly lose the plot a bit yesterday?

It went something like -
When the first vote on the amendment went through (No 'No Deal' ever), that caught her off guard, she'd thought she would win that one but lost narrowly. Then panic ensued and she arranged a 3 line whip to get all her MPs (including ministers who are supposed to obey) to vote down her own Govt motion on the main vote of 'We wont leave with a No Deal on the 29th March'. She was then seen in the lobby voting against her own motion and so in a round about way voting for a No Deal herself and took some stick from MPs for it - Jess Phillips who's never afraid to speak her mind told May to her face 'It was a dsigrace'.
A number of cabinet and junior minsiters abstained, some other Brexiteer MPs later calling for their resignations because it was a 3 line whip. Farage raging. One minister did resign I believe. The ministers that abstained must know that's very serious but May has so little control she can't do diddly about that it seems. Those ministers were caught bewteeen a rock and a hard place though - could not be seen to vote for No Deal or they'd have been vilified for it, May put them in an impossible position. They all claim to back PM on leaving with a deal however.

Clearly she wanted to keep a No Deal option alive all along (legally it is still alive as others have noted above) but to have it 'alive' for a later date after 29th in a commons voting sense, if not a legal one.

Is that about the size of it?

Desperate stuff and not the behaviour of a PM/leader in control. *How is she continually able to survive as PM?* Shambles.
		
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Probably because at the moment in the situation we are in, no one will do a better job as everyone knows there is no majority for anything in parliament.  Gove, Bojo et al are keeping as quiet as they can waiting to pounce when the time is right.  But I'd argue to take over now would not be a great career move.


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Probably because at the moment in the situation we are in, no one will do a better job as everyone knows there is no majority for anything in parliament.  Gove, Bojo et al are keeping as quiet as they can waiting to pounce when the time is right.  But I'd argue to take over now would not be a great career move.
		
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And it is why Corbyn has no idea which way to jump - much as he would like to get Labour in power.


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2019)

And from Mr Tusk....

_[B]Donald Tusk[/B]â€Verified account @[B]eucopresident[/B] 
 @*eucopresident* 


During my consultations ahead of #*EUCO*, I will appeal to the EU27 to be open to a long extension if the UK finds it necessary *to rethink its* #*Brexit* strategy and build consensus around it.

     1:52 am - 14 Mar 2019 _

When he says 'rethink' how much would you bet that he actually means 'reverse'?


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			There was, wasnâ€™t there? And it passed with a greater majority?
		
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No. But you already know that.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 14, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Amendment going in to take 2nd referendum off the table, be interesting to see if speaker allows it.
		
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Not selected by Bercow, but the cross party one that effectively ties up the process has.

At the start of today's main Brexit debate, Speaker John Bercow announces that he has selected the following four amendments for debate:
*Amendment (h) â€“ Cross-party Remainers*
This amendment requests an extension of Article 50 in order to have another referendum.
*Amendment (i) â€“ Benn/Cooper*
This amendment, which has lots of cross party support, would allow MPs to take control of parliamentary business next Wednesday (20 March).
They would use the time to debate a Brexit motion that could lead to Parliament holding a series of indicative votes on different Brexit options, possibly the following week.
He adds that there has been a 'manuscript' amendment tabled to this, which will be published shortly.
*Amendment (e) â€“ Labour frontbench*
This amendment rejects the PMâ€™s deal and the idea of leaving without a deal.
It also calls for an extension to Brexit talks to â€œprovide parliamentary time for this House to find a majority for a different approachâ€.
*Amendment (j) â€“ Bryant/Brake*
This amendment orders the government not to put its Brexit deal to another vote, citing parliamentary rules.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 14, 2019)

Speaker John Bercow has refused to call the cross-party amendment B rejecting a second referendum, despite the fact that it was signed by 127 MPs including the entirety of the DUP and had numerous Labour MPs as leading co-signatories including Caroline Flint, Gareth Snell and John Mann.  


Conservative Mark Francois expresses anger that an amendment he supported, which rejects holding another referendum, has not been selected.
Mr Bercow says that MPs "do have to take the rough with the smooth". He adds that all MPs end up happy or unhappy depending on what amendments he has picked.
"The Chair has to make a judgement on a variety of criteria," he says.
"The Chair does his or her best to facilitate debate and to allow the House to speak," he adds.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 14, 2019)

The most important amendment going on the order paper today is the one in the names of Hilary Benn, Sir Oliver Letwin and Yvette Cooper - because it is the one that would wrest control of shaping Brexit from the prime minister and deliver this control to MPs.
This is a coup against the PM, against the executive, so Theresa May is honour bound to oppose it, to instruct Tory MPs via a three-line whip to vote it down.
But it was clear from what Greg Clark, the business secretary said on my show last night, and what the Chancellor said in his spring statement yesterday, that important members of the Cabinet - them, plus Rudd and Gauke, for instance - support this revolt of the backbenches.
So the first question is whether Clark, Rudd and Gauke - plus other ministers desperate to avoid a no-deal Brexit - will have to rebel against the PM again by either abstaining on the Benn/Letwin amendment or backing it.
Probably not, I am reliably told. Since the movers of the motion are convinced they will win, even without ministerial support, and would rather keep their supporters inside the PM's tent.
"They are more useful to us in the government rather than out" one of the leaders of the coup told me - in language that will further enrage Brexiter Tories, who fear they are being comprehensively outmanoeuvred by unreconstructed Remainers who are seeking to capture the Brexit citadel and deliver what they see as Brexit in Name Only.
There is of course deep pain for the prime minister in the confidence of Benn/Letwin/Cooper that they will triumph even without ministerial resignations, which is that she has lost control of her backbenches - and that significant numbers of Tories outside the payroll will disobey her.
So how does their disloyal amendment transfer power away from 10 Downing Street?
Well here is where it gets complicated. Bear with me.
The first thing it does is temporarily remove the PM's power to set the agenda in parliament - in this instance on next Wednesday.
On that day a motion would be debated by MPs which if passed would then pave the way for what's known as indicative votes on different versions of Brexit the following week - on another day when control of parliament's agenda would be seized from the prime minister by backbenchers.
On this second full day of the backbenchers' coup, MPs would then be able to table their own preferred routes through the Brexit mess. Those routes might include a no-deal Brexit, the so-called Malthouse Brexit (a "managed" no-deal Brexit), Common Market 2.0 (the Norway model augmented by an customs "arrangement" - don't ask!), a referendum and so on.
And at the end of that day, all these options would be printed on bits of paper. And MPs would - in a secret ballot, to avoid gaming of the system - be able to put a tick next to any version of Brexit or even a no-Brexit that they favour.
MPs would be able to vote for as many plans as they like. They would simply be asked to show which routes they would tolerate.
Now, the expectation is that after this day two of backbenchers' control, there would not be a clear winner.
No single option may be backed by a majority of MPs - which seems the most likely outcome. Or there several may command a majority (in that, as I said, MPs could vote for as many Brexit plans as they like).
Either way, the chances are that backbenchers will have to seize control of a third day of business from the government, to whittle down the most popular options to just single one that commands the majority of MPs.
And at that juncture the Prime Minister would be instructed to negotiate that outcome with Brussels and EU leaders.
By now you will have realised that this does genuinely represent an extraordinary and unprecedented undermining of the PM on the most important issue of this age and one of the most important issues of almost any age.
Her humiliation at that point would be complete.
Why would formerly loyal Tory MPs turn her into their puppet? Well it is because they are concerned that if they don't, the alternative would be a no-deal Brexit - which, they fear, would wreak havoc on country and their party, from which neither would recover for many years.
And they say the reason they have to launch their coup today is because it has to be underway - they say - before the European Council of a week's time, in that they are anxious EU leaders would not delay Brexit unless and until they can see MPs beginning the process of rallying towards a particular Brexit course.
So we are on the brink of history - the transmogrification of Theresa May into PINO, or Prime Minister in Name Only.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			No. But you already know that.
		
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You've lost me, here.

First vote, a free vote - tiny margin.

Revote almost instantly, Tories whipped - larger margin.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's political suicide if that would be done without some form of referendum where it obtained a significant majority.  I'd argue a very managed soft Brexit is the only possible way out of this.  I imagine that no one will be particularly happy with that but over time we'll move on.  Any of the other options (no deal, revoke article 50) will just lead to massive divisions in society and parliament and years and years of arguing, blaming the other side etc etc.
		
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And that soft Brexit could well be Mrs Mayâ€™s deal. And what is often forgotten is that Mrs. May herself is not that keen on it. Itâ€™s just the only thing she can get, because we allowed the EU to dictate the negotiations and couldnâ€™t negotiate a trade agreement in tandem with the WA.
If we could have negotiated a trade agreement at the same time as all this, all these fears about the backstop would have been nullified.
Itâ€™s almost like all this chaos was planned to make leaving difficult.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Did May properly lose the plot a bit yesterday?

It went something like -
When the first vote on the amendment went through (No 'No Deal' ever), that caught her off guard, she'd thought she would win that one but lost narrowly. Then panic ensued and she arranged a 3 line whip to get all her MPs (including ministers who are supposed to obey) to vote down her own Govt motion on the main vote of 'We wont leave with a No Deal on the 29th March'. She was then seen in the lobby voting against her own motion and so in a round about way voting for a No Deal herself and took some stick from MPs for it - Jess Phillips who's never afraid to speak her mind told May to her face 'It was a dsigrace'.
A number of cabinet and junior minsiters abstained, some other Brexiteer MPs later calling for their resignations because it was a 3 line whip. Farage raging. One minister did resign I believe. The ministers that abstained must know that's very serious but May has so little control she can't do diddly about that it seems. Those ministers were caught bewteeen a rock and a hard place though - could not be seen to vote for No Deal or they'd have been vilified for it, May put them in an impossible position. They all claim to back PM on leaving with a deal however.

Clearly she wanted to keep a No Deal option alive all along (legally it is still alive as others have noted above) but to have it 'alive' for a later date after 29th in a commons voting sense, if not a legal one.

Is that about the size of it?

Desperate stuff and not the behaviour of a PM/leader in control. How is she continually able to survive as PM? Shambles.
		
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The worst of it was that Caroline Spelman tabled the motion to take no deal off the table for good, then realised what she had done and declined to move it, leaving co signatory Yvette Cooper (Labour, though we know Labour are irrelevant according to some on here, so cannot be blamed or credited) to move it forward anyway. Spelman had no choice but to vote for it and it would have only taken her and one other voting against for a tie.
Spelman also read out in Parliament a heartfelt letter from one of her constituents outlining in very clear terms how many people who voted to leave feel betrayed. She only spoiled it by not being able to resist telling everyone the writer came from a council estate (because all leave voters are poor, uneducated and disadvantaged  I assume) and then going on to do exactly what the writer complained about. So it was not only TM who had one of her worst days ever. Spelman is now as big a laughingstock as she made her country. What an absolute plonker.
Mrs. May had to vote against her own motion because the motion had radically altered. She only tabled a motion to reject no deal until March 29 to test the mood of the house and allow it to move on to a vote on A50 extension. She never intended to tie the hands of her own team of negotiators permanently.
The fact that she is unable to sack ministers for defying the whip only serves to demonstrate how little authority she now commands. She cannot lead her party. Her position is untenable. She should and indeed must resign.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You've lost me, here.

First vote, a free vote - tiny margin.

Revote almost instantly, Tories whipped - larger margin.
		
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I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that I am sure I donâ€™t really have to explain, but anyway.
The first vote was an amendment to the original motion. It passed. It largely made the second vote on the amended motion irrelevant but they had to vote because that was the vote on the motion. Remember the first vote was just an amendment.
Voting against the motion when the amendment had passed was only a protest vote as it was obvious it was going to pass as it had already been voted on, even though they tried to whip at the last moment. Until this point the Tories has said it was a free vote. Realistically they had no chance of whipping successfully as they would have had to practically drag people across the lobby.
So the first vote was not a vote on the motion. The second vote was. So one vote. Not two.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that I am sure I donâ€™t really have to explain, but anyway.
The first vote was an amendment to the original motion. It passed. It largely made the second vote on the amended motion irrelevant but they had to vote because that was the vote on the motion. Remember the first vote was just an amendment.
Voting against the motion when the amendment had passed was only a protest vote as it was obvious it was going to pass as it had already been voted on, even though they tried to whip at the last moment. Until this point the Tories has said it was a free vote. Realistically they had no chance of whipping successfully as they would have had to practically drag people across the lobby.
So the first vote was not a vote on the motion. The second vote was. So one vote. Not two.
		
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Congratulations on a post without mentioning Labour. 

P.S. We wouldnâ€™t of needed the last 3 months and amendments etc etc if the tories had got it right in the first place.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Congratulations on a post without mentioning Labour. 

P.S. We wouldnâ€™t of needed the last 3 months and amendments etc etc if the tories had got it right in the first place. 

Click to expand...

Why would I mention Labour? according to you they are irrelevant and cannot be blamed under any circumstances. Ever. We must put cheese in our ears should anyone even dream of criticising comrade Corbyn et al ðŸ˜€
As I said before, we wouldnâ€™t have needed the last 3 months and amendments etc if we hadnâ€™t ceded control of the negotiations and been able to negotiate a trade deal alongside the WA. Whether that is the fault of the Tories, the EU or both is a fair question. The result is bad for everyone, in the UK and the EU.


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			And that soft Brexit could well be Mrs Mayâ€™s deal. And what is often forgotten is that Mrs. May herself is not that keen on it. Itâ€™s just the only thing she can get, because we allowed the EU to dictate the negotiations and couldnâ€™t negotiate a trade agreement in tandem with the WA.
If we could have negotiated a trade agreement at the same time as all this, all these fears about the backstop would have been nullified.
Itâ€™s almost like all this chaos was planned to make leaving difficult.
		
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I would agree with all  of the above if the word 'suitable' (or 'appropriate') was inserted ahead of any mention of 'trade agreement'.

As it is, some sort of 'backstop' definitely IS required to ensure a 'proper' border exists between the UK and ALL EU countries - which really only means between Eire and NI, as that's a simple thing to achieve for other EU countries. It's only actually a 'problem' for that (Eire/NI) border because as part of the Good Friday agreement, it was agreed that there would be NO 'hard border'. So something has to give and the EU proposed that NI be (effectively) treated as if it was still in the Single Market and EU Customs area until a mutually satisfactory agreement is reached. That concept has been rejected by UK Parliament on the basis that it could tie UK to EU permanently! That seems to be the current impasse, even with approval by UK Parliament of an amendment to negotiate 'alternative arrangements' resulting in apparent intransigence from the EU negotiating team.

It seems to me that only a small nudge by any group could result in one of several results....

EU and UK teams could agree acceptable 'alternative arrangements' allowing May's deal to be approved by Parliament - resulting in Brexit happening as negotiated on 29/3
No agreement, so a No Deal Brexit happens by default on 29/3.
Brexit Day is moved either a small amount (say to June) or a further fairly large period to allow for 'alternative arrangements' to be negotiated - or maybe even a 2nd Referendum (with a 'Stay' result so Article 50 trigger is revoked!).

I don't think May's voice is going to return to normal for some time!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 14, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Speaker John Bercow has refused to call the cross-party amendment B rejecting a second referendum, despite the fact that it was signed by 127 MPs including the entirety of the DUP and had numerous Labour MPs as leading co-signatories including Caroline Flint, Gareth Snell and John Mann. 


Conservative Mark Francois expresses anger that an amendment he supported, which rejects holding another referendum, has not been selected.
Mr Bercow says that MPs "do have to take the rough with the smooth". He adds that all MPs end up happy or unhappy depending on what amendments he has picked.
"The Chair has to make a judgement on a variety of criteria," he says.
"The Chair does his or her best to facilitate debate and to allow the House to speak," he adds.
		
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Appreciate the quotes but anytime I see the words _'Conservative Mark Francois expresses anger' _ I think what is the swivel eyed loon ranting on about this time and does the day end in a Y


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that I am sure I donâ€™t really have to explain, but anyway.
The first vote was an amendment to the original motion. It passed. *It largely made the second vote on the amended motion irrelevant* but they had to vote because that was the vote on the motion. Remember the first vote was just an amendment.
Voting against the motion when the amendment had passed was only a protest vote as it was obvious it was going to pass as it had already been voted on, even though they tried to whip at the last moment. Until this point the Tories has said it was a free vote. Realistically they had no chance of whipping successfully as they would have had to practically drag people across the lobby.
So the first vote was not a vote on the motion. The second vote was. So one vote. Not two.
		
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Re the bold bit...
Unless they actually vote on the, now amended, motion, they have not voted on anything - except to amend a motion that has never been put! So certainly not 'irrelevant'! Maybe you mean 'the result of the vote on the amended motion obvious'?

And as the whole concept of the, now amended, motion had changed from what was originally tabled, it's totally reasonable that the original proposers/tablers could decide to vote against the, now amended, motion. This order and its consequence(s) is a fairly common in any 'approval by voting' process, both in Parliament or any other body.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			And that soft Brexit could well be Mrs Mayâ€™s deal. And what is often forgotten is that Mrs. May herself is not that keen on it. Itâ€™s just the only thing she can get, *because we allowed the EU to dictate the negotiations* and couldnâ€™t negotiate a trade agreement in tandem with the WA.
If we could have negotiated a trade agreement at the same time as all this, all these fears about the backstop would have been nullified.
*Itâ€™s almost like all this chaos was planned to make leaving difficult*.
		
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I've said it before and I'll say it again but as soon as TMay became PM the Tory party had it in completely their power with a 17 seat working majority to come up with a proposal that would have a working majority in parliament. That would have given us a very strong hand rather than people bleating about the German car manufacturing industry and threats of us walking away with no deals saving us. She knew the exit process, she knew what order things needed to be done in, it was all laid out for her.  

But she inherited a fractured party on Europe where she tried to appease all sides, called an election, invoked article 50 and the rest has been painful for all to watch. Including I expect the EU. Yes of course the EU don't want us to leave and will put the interests of their remaining members first in any negotiations which some may well interpret as them being difficult. But by god have we played one of the worst hands in history.


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've said it before and I'll say it again but *as soon as TMay became PM the Tory party had it in completely their power with a 17 seat working majority to come up with a proposal that would have a working majority in parliament.* That would have given us a very strong hand rather than people bleating about the German car manufacturing industry and threats of us walking away with no deals saving us. She knew the exit process, she knew what order things needed to be done in, it was all laid out for her. 

But she inherited a fractured party on Europe where she tried to appease all sides, called an election, invoked article 50 and the rest has been painful for all to watch. Including I expect the EU. Yes of course the EU don't want us to leave and will put the interests of their remaining members first in any negotiations which some may well interpret as them being difficult. But by god have we played one of the worst hands in history.
		
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I don't believe that '17 seat' majority was enough! You only need to look at the results of the Commons votes in to see she needed a bigger majority - and those additional seats needed to be willing to back her!

Fractured party on Europe indeed. But so is the country! And, I believe, so is Labour!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe that '17 seat' majority was enough! You only need to look at the results of the Commons votes in to see she needed a bigger majority - and those additional seats needed to be willing to back her!

Fractured party on Europe indeed. But so is the country! And, I believe, so is Labour!
		
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The labour thing is just prime whataboutery as they were not in power.  And a 17 seat majority is more than enough to get the vast majority of legislation through that a government wants to pass. It is only not enough if your party can not agree on your policy or approach to a subject. And if that is the case then one might ask why the chuff did you tell the public that you are able to enact their wishes on that subject.


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			The labour thing is just prime whataboutery as they were not in power.  And a 17 seat majority is more than enough to get the vast majority of legislation through that a government wants to pass. *It is only not enough if your party can not agree on your policy or approach to a subject.*

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And that's certainly the case on EU membership! 

The ERG members, for instance, could easily frustrate any 'non-pure' Brexit! And there are plenty of Remainers who could (and have) voted against many Brexit bills/votes!


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47543540/corbyn-extending-article-50-is-now-inevitable

Apart from a couple of 'policy' details, imo probably Corbyn's best speech to the House!

Still a pretty lousy speaker and NOT someone I'd like to see as PM though!


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## IanM (Mar 14, 2019)

Frustrate, delay, cancel.   

Plan executed.  And some people think the negotiations have been badly handled. Nope.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've said it before and I'll say it again but as soon as TMay became PM the Tory party had it in completely their power with a 17 seat working majority to come up with a proposal that would have a working majority in parliament. That would have given us a very strong hand rather than people bleating about the German car manufacturing industry and threats of us walking away with no deals saving us. She knew the exit process, she knew what order things needed to be done in, it was all laid out for her. 

But she inherited a fractured party on Europe where she tried to appease all sides, called an election, invoked article 50 and the rest has been painful for all to watch. Including I expect the EU. Yes of course the EU don't want us to leave and will put the interests of their remaining members first in any negotiations which some may well interpret as them being difficult. But by god have we played one of the worst hands in history.
		
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I donâ€™t really think the EU insisting on us not being allowed to negotiate a trade deal in tandem with the WA had anything to do with the governments majority in the UK Parliament, though it is certainly true that calling an election was an arrogant mistake that weakened our government significantly. Whilst itâ€™s hard to comprehend the reasoning behind the EUâ€™s insistence, I think they would have tried it anyway. Of course we should have refused to negotiate in this way. But this was at the time when the UK was making all the proposals and the EU was just batting them away. We should have been stronger.
As for triggering A50, that was one of the votes in this whole saga that practically the whole house agreed upon.
If someone on the remain side was to suggest that we have been shown up to be terrible negotiators and that this does not bode well for the UK negotiating trade deals with the rest of the world, I think that would be a perfectly valid point to make.
Whatever the outcome of Brexit, the UK needs to sharpen up its act and quick. We deserve better.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 14, 2019)

this is where we went wrong :

Trump on Brexit, as per @*Reuters*:  â€“ A second Brexit referendum would be 'unfair' â€“ Says Brexit is 'complex' â€“ Says May 'did not listen' to his suggestions on how to negotiate Brexit â€“ Says he's 'surprised' by how bad Brexit negotiations have gone.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 14, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			this is where we went wrong :

Trump on Brexit, as per @*Reuters*:  â€“ A second Brexit referendum would be 'unfair' â€“ Says Brexit is 'complex' â€“ Says May 'did not listen' to his suggestions on how to negotiate Brexit â€“ Says he's 'surprised' by how bad Brexit negotiations have gone.
		
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Christ on a bicycle, as if it couldn't get any worse we are now being patronised by the orange faced Man Child.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

IanM said:



			Frustrate, delay, cancel.  

Plan executed.  And some people think the negotiations have been badly handled. Nope.
		
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Actually I think we are both right. I agree that there is no will on behalf of either side to reach the best agreement for the people of both sides. Both sides have ulterior motives that are more important to them.
But even so, the negotiations have been badly handled. The point many miss about Brexit being cancelled is what our place will be like within the EU after all this. The UK had a perfect opportunity to show strength of character, leadership and clear business principles. Probably all things we prided ourselves on in the past. In falling over ourselves to show a willingness to do a deal at all costs we now appear weak and unprincipled. And we are still doing it. Last night is proof. We more or less begged the EU for a deal. Any deal will do. No matter how bad. That is what we said. Itâ€™s the kind of thing only a country defeated in war would usually be forced to concede. I for one never thought I would see the day.
By negotiating so badly we have damaged our place in the world and if we were to stay, within the EU as well.
I donâ€™t believe this was an intended consequence.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			this is where we went wrong :

Trump on Brexit, as per @*Reuters*:  â€“ A second Brexit referendum would be 'unfair' â€“ Says Brexit is 'complex' â€“ Says May 'did not listen' to his suggestions on how to negotiate Brexit â€“ Says he's 'surprised' by how bad Brexit negotiations have gone.
		
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He also says he looks forward to doing incredible trade deals with the UK


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Christ on a bicycle, as if it couldn't get any worse we are now being patronised by the orange faced Man Child.
		
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An orange faced man child who knows how to negotiate a deal better than us. We deserve it.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			An orange faced man child who knows how to negotiate a deal better than us. We deserve it.
		
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like his deal with the Mexicans over the wall ðŸ˜


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			An orange faced man child who knows how to negotiate a deal better than us. We deserve it.
		
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Probably because he only considers himself and what he wants and sees as a good deal.


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			An orange faced man child...
		
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A chlorine wash would sort that out!


Sweep said:



			He also says he looks forward to doing* incredible* trade deals with the UK
		
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'Not credible' probably closer to being correct!

'Incredible for who' was my first thought!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 14, 2019)

Dear MPs (All of you) We had a gut feeling you were all self serving wasters and you have proved us correct.


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

Well, that has killed a 2nd referendum!


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2019)

Labour abstaining to push for a second referendum another day.


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Well, that has killed a 2nd referendum!
		
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For now. Theyâ€™ll try again when they feel the time is best to achieve it.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably because he only considers himself and what he wants and sees as a good deal.
		
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To be fair, you donâ€™t build a business empire without doing some good deals.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Labour abstaining to push for a second referendum another day.
		
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What??? So they adopt a second referendum as their main policy on Brexit and then donâ€™t vote for it???


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			What??? So they adopt a second referendum as their main policy on Brexit and then donâ€™t vote for it???
		
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They think itâ€™ll have more chance of being passed if they wait. Fairly simple.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			What??? So they adopt a second referendum as their main policy on Brexit and then donâ€™t vote for it???
		
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Not quite, what they said at the time was:
â€œThe U.K.â€™s opposition Labour Party will back a second referendum on Brexit to avoid Theresa Mayâ€™s deal and a no-deal exit from the EU, leader Jeremy Corbyn told MPs.â€
As both of those are dead in the water there was no need to back a 2nd Ref.
I thought youâ€™d be happy?


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

Corbyn's tactical amendment (rightly imo) voted down!

Now comes the 'big' one - for a delay to extension until 30/6. Likely to be carried imo. Would be a good result for May - provided it's approved by EU27!


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## TreeSeeker (Mar 14, 2019)

Labour were right, for them, to not vote for the 2nd referendum at this point. Mostly because there isn't anything to put to the vote (could you say as a viable parliament, we hate this deal, but do you guys want this anyway)

The big issue is the rejected withdrawal deal being brought back AGAIN, that is so completely unacceptable. Given the EU won't negoitiation whats the point in extending and just throwing more money away to the EU.

Edit : I'll now be hoping that the 27 don't agree a short extension, which I doubt they will, and that we get somewhere positive next week.


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## Foxholer (Mar 14, 2019)

So extension allowed/recommended by Commons. Still needs/Yet to be agreed by EU27.

Still unlikely, imo, for any meaningful change in deal May has negotiated - all depends on agreeing cutoff point of Backstop imo.

Simply delaying 'crisis point' imo and causing EU elections issue!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			What are the odds on article 50 being revoked when the eu say no to extending date then MPs to claim we will trigger it again when the time is right.. then the rug will be lifted and brexit will be swept under it

Job done
		
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Edging closer and closer


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

Regardless of deal or extension whatever, we are leaving.....eventually, just tell them weâ€™re not taking part in any Euro elections and weâ€™ll chat later.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			They think itâ€™ll have more chance of being passed if they wait. Fairly simple.
		
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Not really. Absolutely nothing to stop them from voting for it now and again when it comes up again. This optionâ€™s chances are not enhanced by being rejected so comprehensively.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Regardless of deal or extension whatever, we are leaving.....eventually, just tell them weâ€™re not taking part in any Euro elections and weâ€™ll chat later.
		
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Donâ€™t be so sure.. they can withdraw article 50 at any time. Letâ€™s wait and see


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not quite, what they said at the time was:
â€œThe U.K.â€™s opposition Labour Party will back a second referendum on Brexit to avoid Theresa Mayâ€™s deal and a no-deal exit from the EU, leader Jeremy Corbyn told MPs.â€
As both of those are dead in the water there was no need to back a 2nd Ref.
I thought youâ€™d be happy?

Click to expand...

I am happy.
2nd ref off the table and Labour looking like the clowns they are. Whatâ€™s not to like?
Has there been much criticism of Labour not voting for it? I didnâ€™t hear it because I put cheese in my ears ðŸ˜€


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Regardless of deal or extension whatever, we are leaving.....eventually, just tell them weâ€™re not taking part in any Euro elections and weâ€™ll chat later.
		
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When it became clear the negotiations werenâ€™t getting anywhere we should have suggested we leave and talk later. That would have forced the EU to negotiate seriously, including a trade deal. Even if the EU didnâ€™t talk we would be in a better or the same position as where we are now. 
If you can check the record I said so at the time.
We should really still say that, but yesterdayâ€™s vote has put paid to that option.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I am happy.
2nd ref off the table and Labour looking like the clowns they are. Whatâ€™s not to like?
Has there been much criticism of Labour not voting for it? I didnâ€™t hear it because I put cheese in my ears ðŸ˜€
		
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Only criticism came from the Remainers, most criticism is still being aimed at the PM.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Donâ€™t be so sure.. they can withdraw article 50 at any time. Letâ€™s wait and see
		
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Who can?


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So extension allowed/recommended by Commons. Still needs/Yet to be agreed by EU27.

Still unlikely, imo, for any meaningful change in deal May has negotiated - all depends on agreeing cutoff point of Backstop imo.

Simply delaying 'crisis point' imo and causing EU elections issue!
		
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All parties just want to kick the can down the road. They want us to leave but not really leave but just convince the country they delivered Brexit.
There is a way out, but it requires the EU to soften its position. Agree a trade deal and the backstop issue goes away. Sound simple? Well, it may be a simplistic way of putting it but as we are already trading this way it shouldnâ€™t be hard and they have done the same for Japan and Canada.
There has to be a reason the EU doesnâ€™t want to offer it right now and I think we all know what that reason is.


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Who can?
		
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The UK government.


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## Sweep (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Only criticism came from the Remainers, most criticism is still being aimed at the PM.
		
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A waste of good cheddar then ðŸ˜€


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Who can?
		
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We (the uk) can. There was a court case a few months ago where it was ruled we can revoke it at any time before we leave and stay in the EU and not a single country needs to sign off on it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The UK government.
		
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Only with a vote though isnâ€™t it? and I really canâ€™t see any Party except the SNP and the Lib Dems supporting that.


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Only with a vote though isnâ€™t it? and I really canâ€™t see any Party except the SNP and the Lib Dens supporting that.
		
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It is widely believed that there is a majority amongst MP's in the HoC's to remain within the EU.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 14, 2019)

So the farce looks to continue. I think every single MP needs to look hard in the mirror and decide if they really represented the views of the leavers, decided solely on the facts presented or simply followed party lines for political gains and their own self interest


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

ger147 said:



			It is widely believed that there is a majority amongst MP's in the HoC's to remain within the EU.
		
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Maybe, but I still believe that would be political suicide for any MP in a seat that had a majority vote leave.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe, but I still believe that would be political suicide for any MP in a seat that had a majority vote leave.
		
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Said the same with the poll tax didnâ€™t they? Toryâ€™s recovered


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe, but I still believe that would be political suicide for any MP in a seat that had a majority vote leave.
		
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Not necessarily, the latest opinion polls show that the public if voting again would vote to Remain.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Not necessarily, the latest opinion polls show that the public if voting again would vote to Remain.
		
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But youâ€™re not talking about a public vote, Iâ€™d have a lot more tolerance for the public changing their mind than an MP doing it for them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Said the same with the poll tax didnâ€™t they? Toryâ€™s recovered
		
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It cost Maggie her job!


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 14, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Not necessarily, the latest opinion polls show that the public if voting again would vote to Remain.
		
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Ah them opinion polls. How do they work out lately?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It cost Maggie her job!
		
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I donâ€™t think May is stupid enough to think she has a job left for long..

If it wasnâ€™t for the falklands war Maggie would have been gone a long time before.. never change a leader when your in a war


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So the farce looks to continue. I think every single MP needs to look hard in the mirror and decide if they really represented the views of the leavers, decided solely on the facts presented or simply followed party lines for political gains and their own self interest
		
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Have to be careful because you get defensive and precious.
Either you donâ€™t understand whatâ€™s going on or you havenâ€™t been following it, because your post makes no sense to me.


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But youâ€™re not talking about a public vote, Iâ€™d have a lot more tolerance for the public changing their mind than an MP doing it for them.
		
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You are perfectly entitled to hold that view but I don't agree it would be political suicide if MP's revoke A50.

They could hold a 2nd vote to ask Joe Public if they still want to leave or stay and in practical terms, that could just as easily be after A50 is revoked as if the public vote again to Leave they can give notice again.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Have to be careful because you get defensive and precious.
Either you donâ€™t understand whatâ€™s going on or you havenâ€™t been following it, because your post makes no sense to me.
		
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The simple case is, as others have said, is across the board we have made a complete hash of negotiating any sort of meaningful deal and have become a laughing stock internationally to the point where even Trump is having a swipe. I'm simply saying MP's of all parties should take a hard look at what their motives have been since the referendum result and how has it come to the current situation. Nothing more than frustration on how we're still in a real mess https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46393399


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

ger147 said:



			You are perfectly entitled to hold that view but I don't agree it would be political suicide if MP's revoke A50.

They could hold a 2nd vote to ask Joe Public if they still want to leave or stay and in practical terms, that could just as easily be after A50 is revoked as if the public vote again to Leave they can give notice again.
		
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Thank you! We can revoke article 50 whenever we like.. the referendum wasnâ€™t legally binding so nothing wrong with ignoring it.. MPs are in charge of the country . We can have the illusion we are if we do wish 

Once itâ€™s revoked they can do what they want to cover up the mess

Iâ€™ve been saying since day one when the referendum was announced thatâ€™s whatâ€™s the point no matter what the MPs will block it

Iâ€™m very very close to finally having my statement proven correct.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The simple case is, as others have said, is across the board we have made a complete hash of negotiating any sort of meaningful deal and have become a laughing stock internationally to the point where even Trump is having a swipe. I'm simply saying MP's of all parties should take a hard look at what their motives have been since the referendum result and how has it come to the current situation. Nothing more than frustration on how we're still in a real mess https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46393399

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*Thereâ€™s only been the Government holding negotiations,* the Government has a majority in the HoCâ€™s, if that Government voted along Party lines the deal would now be done and weâ€™d be coming out on 29th March.
All other Opposition Parties become irrelevant.
You canâ€™t expect MPâ€™s to vote on a bad deal because itâ€™s the only one on offer!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Thank you! We can revoke article 50 whenever we like.. the referendum wasnâ€™t legally binding so nothing wrong with ignoring it.. MPs are in charge of the country . We can have the illusion we are if we do wish

Once itâ€™s revoked they can do what they want to cover up the mess

Iâ€™ve been saying since day one when the referendum was announced thatâ€™s whatâ€™s the point no matter what the MPs will block it

Iâ€™m very very close to finally having my statement proven correct.
		
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It would still require a vote, yes the vote may pass, but it would still have to be brought forward with an explanation as to why, currently there is no mention of it and personally I believe we will end up with a watered down Brexit with all Parties claiming theyâ€™ve given the Country what was voted for.


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## Reemul (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



*Thereâ€™s only been the Government holding negotiations,* the Government has a majority in the HoCâ€™s, if that Government voted along Party lines the deal would now be done and weâ€™d be coming out on 29th March.
All other Opposition Parties become irrelevant.
You canâ€™t expect MPâ€™s to vote on a bad deal because itâ€™s the only one on offer!
		
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The government doesn't have a majority, it needs the DUP to hold power. Now maybe if it was an English based party they would have followed party lines but the DUP being Irish meant they never would with the deal being offered.

It's a shame that all parties didn't get together and unite under we are leaving and work to get the best deal for the country, because they sure as hell havent got anything decent for themselves yet


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It would still require a vote, yes the vote may pass, but it would still have to be brought forward with an explanation as to why, currently there is no mention of it and personally I believe we will end up with a watered down Brexit with all Parties claiming theyâ€™ve given the Country what was voted for.
		
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There has been countless mentions of it

May says â€œyou risk there being no brexit at allâ€ thatâ€™s revoking article 50 

The press give you the option break downs of what could happen and one is no brexit - that is revoking article 50

Itâ€™s there hiding in plain sight .. just have to look and it appears . Once seen it canâ€™t be unseen

Itâ€™s lurking , waiting to be actioned


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

Reemul said:



			The government doesn't have a majority, it needs the DUP to hold power. Now maybe if it was an English based party they would have followed party lines but the DUP being Irish meant they never would with the deal being offered.

It's a shame that all parties didn't get together and unite under we are leaving and work to get the best deal for the country, because they sure as hell havent got anything decent for themselves yet
		
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The Government does because it includes the DUP deal and the reason I didnâ€™t say the tory party.
Other Parties were never invited to talks, TM stated that just after the last GE, it was only after the deal was voted down she started cross party talks.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			There has been countless mentions of it

May says â€œyou risk there being no brexit at allâ€ thatâ€™s revoking article 50

The press give you the option break downs of what could happen and one is no brexit - that is revoking article 50

Itâ€™s there hiding in plain sight .. just have to look and it appears . Once seen it canâ€™t be unseen

Itâ€™s lurking , waiting to be actioned
		
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Only before 29th March and only if the EU say no to the extension, so currently I would suggest the Government isnâ€™t looking at it.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Only before 29th March and only if the EU say no to the extension, so currently I would suggest the Government isnâ€™t looking at it.
		
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If they say yes to an extension we can still revoke it anytime before we leave 

It will be actioned March 28th Iâ€™m sure


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## spongebob59 (Mar 14, 2019)

BREAKING: Amy Jackson, Jeremy Corbynâ€™s political secretary, has texted the 4 Labour shadow ministers who did not abstain on the second referendum amendment asking them to resign from the frontbench. They are Justin Madders, Stephanie Peacock, Emma Lewell-Buck and Yvonne Fovargue.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 14, 2019)

Oh no a delay... this thread could go on for another year ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸


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## Mudball (Mar 14, 2019)

All this amendment got too much for my simple mind so I chucked it all and  went go-karting with the team. What did I miss? Someone said May will bring her deal back on the table to be third time lucky. ..


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## Kellfire (Mar 15, 2019)

Reemul said:



			but the DUP being Irish meant they never would with the deal being offered.
		
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Thereâ€™s something not quite right there...


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## robinthehood (Mar 15, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Thereâ€™s something not quite right there...
		
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ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



			All this amendment got too much for my simple mind so I chucked it all and  went go-karting with the team. What did I miss? Someone said May will bring her deal back on the table to be third time lucky. ..
		
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That's about right. The really important amendment which would have given more powers to MPs to actually help decide what could go through,  the Benn amendment, lost by 2 votes. That was a real shame,  it could have been a game changer and unlocked some doors.

As it is, TM will return again with the same plan that has been stuffed twice in the hope that more MPs will panic and crack ðŸ™„ðŸ˜¥. She can then ask the EU for more time, the fun there is to see who voted against the govt motion (spoiler some of her cabinet and most of her party), but the power is then with the EU on whether they do, for how long and how will it work?


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## spongebob59 (Mar 15, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1106342037027094528


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2019)

[QUOTE="Lord Tyrion, post: 1971828, member: 19815"*]That's about right. The really important amendment which would have given more powers to MPs to actually help decide what could go through,  the Benn amendment, lost by 2 votes. That was a real shame,  it could have been a game changer and unlocked some doors.*

As it is, TM will return again with the same plan that has been stuffed twice in the hope that more MPs will panic and crack ðŸ™„ðŸ˜¥. She can then ask the EU for more time, the fun there is to see who voted against the govt motion (spoiler some of her cabinet and most of her party), but the power is then with the EU on whether they do, for how long and how will it work?[/QUOTE]

However they have been 'promised' (for whatever that is worth nowadays in parliament) by the deputy PM , if TMays deal gets voted down yet again, the opportunity to effectively have some indicative votes soon. Which is all that would have happened if that amendment had got through anyway.


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## Mudball (Mar 15, 2019)

Btw who is running the country while WasteMinister keeps spinning the bottle to find the result?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Btw who is running the country while WasteMinister keeps spinning the bottle to find the result?
		
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Rupert Murdock as he always has


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 15, 2019)




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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			[QUOTE="Lord Tyrion, post: 1971828, member: 19815"*]That's about right. The really important amendment which would have given more powers to MPs to actually help decide what could go through,  the Benn amendment, lost by 2 votes. That was a real shame,  it could have been a game changer and unlocked some doors.*

As it is, TM will return again with the same plan that has been stuffed twice in the hope that more MPs will panic and crack ðŸ™„ðŸ˜¥. She can then ask the EU for more time, the fun there is to see who voted against the govt motion (spoiler some of her cabinet and most of her party), but the power is then with the EU on whether they do, for how long and how will it work?
		
Click to expand...

However they have been 'promised' (for whatever that is worth nowadays in parliament) by the deputy PM , if TMays deal gets voted down yet again, the opportunity to effectively have some indicative votes soon. Which is all that would have happened if that amendment had got through anyway.[/QUOTE]
That is true but Benn clearly did not believe the promises he was given regarding this offer as he refused to withdraw the amendment. It may be that the govt does what it has done over the last month or so, offer to listen then completely ignore what people tell them and carry on with TM plan anyway, MV4 anyone? The Benn amendment would have forced them to listen to other options. I think it was hugely disappointing that it did not get through as we may actually have seen what MP's actually want and it would show the EU what could get through.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2019)

Lets see if the EU really mean they have had enough and vote for no extension.


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## ger147 (Mar 15, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Lets see if the EU really mean they have had enough and vote for no extension.
		
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Word from the EU is that they will support a long extension if the UK wish to review and revisit their Brexit strategy...


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Word from the EU is that they will support a long extension if the UK wish to review and revisit their Brexit strategy...
		
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Lets see what the leaders have to say next week, the Dutch PM is completely hacked off with it all.

So its all about the money or the hope that Leavers all keel over and die.  If we keep on like this, it wont be just Leavers.


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## Dando (Mar 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Not necessarily, the latest opinion polls show that the public if voting again would vote to Remain.
		
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Unless it rains


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## bobmac (Mar 15, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			BREAKING: *Amy Jackson, Jeremy Corbynâ€™s political secretary*, has texted the 4 Labour shadow ministers who did not abstain on the second referendum amendment asking them to resign from the frontbench. They are Justin Madders, *Stephanie Peacock*, Emma Lewell-Buck and Yvonne Fovargue.
		
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I wonder why he didn't get his deputy Tom Watson to ask them to resign........

If they had claimed to have migraines, they probably could have kept their jobs


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## Mudball (Mar 15, 2019)

Ahh ... our lovely political masters..


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Ahh ... our lovely political masters..







Click to expand...

Surreal wasn't it?

Rolling news is normally very dull but these last 3 nights have been fascinating to watch. It has been total bedlam.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Lets see what the leaders have to say next week, the Dutch PM is completely hacked off with it all.

*So its all about the money or the hope that Leavers all keel over and die. * If we keep on like this, it wont be just Leavers.
		
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The EU have the elections coming up and they know the right wing populist parties will do well in those, so they have that on their plate.  They then have to reelect new people into positions which will take time, so I imagine unless we can categorically prove we can get a deal done if they give us a couple of months they will probably say it's a long term deal or nowt .  They have agreed a deal twice that our PM has told them she can get to pass and she has failed, so they are not going to give another 3 months just so we can continue arguing like children and failing to pass deals over and over again.


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## drdel (Mar 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			The EU have the elections coming up and they know the right wing populist parties will do well in those, so they have that on their plate.  They then have to reelect new people into positions which will take time, so I imagine unless we can categorically prove we can get a deal done if they give us a couple of months they will probably say it's a long term deal or nowt .  They have agreed a deal twice that our PM has told them she can get to pass and she has failed, so they are not going to give another 3 months just so we can continue arguing like children and failing to pass deals over and over again.
		
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And it will make it easy for the 'new' MEPs to rubbish the old guard and the 'old' guard to blame the 'new' - then we could be into a whole new ball game of uncertainty!!


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## drdel (Mar 15, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Surreal wasn't it?

Rolling news is normally very dull but these last 3 nights have been fascinating to watch. It has been total bedlam.
		
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I have to says, having watched some of the debates with absolute embarrassment that the debacle is being broadcast internationally that some of our MPs are pretty dire


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## Foxholer (Mar 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Btw who is running the country while WasteMinister keeps spinning the bottle to find the result?
		
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No chanbge from normal - The Civil Service!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			And it will make it easy for the 'new' MEPs to rubbish the old guard and the 'old' guard to blame the 'new' -* then we could be into a whole new ball game of uncertainty!!*

Click to expand...

Not sure that's possible as with 2 weeks to go I'm struggling to think of anything that is certain.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not sure that's possible as with 2 weeks to go I'm struggling to think of anything that is certain.
		
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It's going to rain  possibly


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## drdel (Mar 15, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It's going to rain  possibly
		
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No - I'm it is certainly going to rain - when and where is a whole new issue: as to Brexit; the UK & EU have taken the definition of a 'debacle' to a completely new level.


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## IanM (Mar 15, 2019)

I've had one Public Sector Role in my working life.... and while I met many dedicated decent folk there, I also met folk who wouldnt have got past the interview in the Private Sector! 

Mind you.  I take no joy in calling this right all the way through....   I could be proved wrong by May's deal going through next time, but I wont be.   

No vote against the EU has ever prevailed.  Think on.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2019)

Looks like we will be forking out over one hundred million pounds for MEP elections. A price it seems worth paying to further thwart democracy


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## Mudball (Mar 15, 2019)

Always remember that this was the 'Will of the People'


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2019)

I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2019)

IanM said:



			I've had one Public Sector Role in my working life.... and while I met many dedicated decent folk there, I also met folk who wouldnt have got past the interview in the Private Sector! 

Mind you.  *I take no joy in calling this right all the way through*....   I could be proved wrong by May's deal going through next time, but I wont be.  

No vote against the EU has ever prevailed.  Think on.
		
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Come on then Nostradamus,  how does this all end?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Come on then Nostradamus,  how does this all end?
		
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In tears


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Always remember that this was the 'Will of the People'







Click to expand...

Brexit was the will of the people, not this debacle.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2019)

IanM said:



			I've had one Public Sector Role in my working life.... and while I met many dedicated decent folk there, I also met folk who wouldnt have got past the interview in the Private Sector! 

Mind you.  I take no joy in calling this right all the way through....   *I could be proved wrong by May's deal going through next time, but I wont be.  *

No vote against the EU has ever prevailed.  Think on.
		
Click to expand...

I'll bet you a crisp tenner to be donated to the charity of my or your choice (I win, I chose the charity, you donate and vice versa if you win) that TMays deal is voted through before the end of March.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'll bet you a crisp tenner to be donated to the charity of my or your choice (I win, I chose the charity, you donate and vice versa if you win) that TMays deal is voted through before the end of March.
		
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Iâ€™ll take this bet if you want.. if I win I want it to go to the bobby Moore fund ðŸ‘Œ

I donâ€™t believe it will go through


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## adam6177 (Mar 15, 2019)

I've got my fingers crossed that the EU reject our application for an extension.... I hope that the other members are so sick of brexit that they kick us out with no deal. 

I can only hope.


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## Foxholer (Mar 15, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I've got my fingers crossed that the EU reject our application for an extension.... I hope that the other members are so sick of brexit that they kick us out with no deal.

I can only hope.
		
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I wouldn't mind seeing (actually, I'd love to see) the reaction in Cabinet and by The Commons if that happens!

But I'm pretty certain that 'the other members' are far more laid back - and accepting - about the entire exercise. I believe it's only in UK that it dominates the news!

Remember though that 'No Deal' may initially cost the UK economy, but my belief is that in the long term it will 'cost' the EU more! Most agreements are made because it's in both sides interest!


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## IanM (Mar 15, 2019)

Check out @TheaDickinsonâ€™s Tweet: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1106266537953034241
She actually thinks she is working for the EU.


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## IanM (Mar 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'll bet you a crisp tenner to be donated to the charity of my or your choice (I win, I chose the charity, you donate and vice versa if you win) that TMays deal is voted through before the end of March.
		
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Of course.....and I'll be pleased to buy you a drink if you're at Sunningdale.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 15, 2019)

She misspoke like Diane Abacus


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2019)

IanM said:



			Of course.....and I'll be pleased to buy you a drink if you're at Sunningdale.
		
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Afraid I won't be at Sunningdale but I'll take that bet.  I'll inform you of my charity next Wednesday after the vote goes through


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™ll take this bet if you want.. if I win I want it to go to the bobby Moore fund ðŸ‘Œ

I donâ€™t believe it will go through
		
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OK, I'll take it, I'll inform you of my charity next week when the vote goes through.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 15, 2019)

Is that DUP meeting with the Chancellor to discuss another round of cash for votes ?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is that DUP meeting with the Chancellor to discuss another round of cash for votes ?
		
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Take a look on your Weejee Board.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2019)

Wee John Bull is not happy.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/img535.jpg


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## drdel (Mar 16, 2019)

So Tusk (he of the Twitter world) has stated he wants a long extension (20+months) to allow the UK to rethink!

Sounds a bit like when Ireland's vote was not in accord with the EU's wishes they demanded a series of reruns - arrogance!!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			So Tusk (he of the Twitter world) has stated he wants a long extension (20+months) to allow the UK to rethink!

Sounds a bit like when Ireland's vote was not in accord with the EU's wishes they demanded a series of reruns - arrogance!!
		
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And a hundred million pounds to pay for EU elections, later


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			So Tusk (he of the Twitter world) has stated he wants a long extension (20+months) to allow the UK to rethink!

Sounds a bit like when Ireland's vote was not in accord with the EU's wishes they demanded a series of reruns - arrogance!!
		
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To me it sounds like Tusk is aware of what an astonishing mess the UK has made of Brexit and it will take a bit of time to sort out.
Quite decent of him really, they could just have stood by the original UK agreement.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			To me it sounds like Tusk is aware of what an astonishing mess the UK has made of Brexit and it will take a bit of time to sort out.
Quite decent of him really, they could just have stood by the original UK agreement.
		
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Don't you mean the astonishing mess the UK has allowed the EU to get us into.


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## Foxholer (Mar 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And a hundred million pounds to pay for EU elections, later
		
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The cost of the flawed tactics May has used to try to push 'her deal' through!

This 'cost', really an 'unplanned injection of funds into the economy', really IS down to her!


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## Foxholer (Mar 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			To me it sounds like Tusk is aware of what an astonishing mess the UK has made of Brexit and it will take a bit of time to sort out.
Quite decent of him really, they could just have stood by the original UK agreement.
		
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Tusk seems, to me, to be hoping that the UK public will get bored and opt for another Referendum that produces a 'different' result!

He obviously doesn't understand the UK's capacity to tolerate significant periods of boredom for the occasional (and often missed!) dramatic highlights!


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## drdel (Mar 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			To me it sounds like Tusk is aware of what an astonishing mess the UK has made of Brexit and it will take a bit of time to sort out.
Quite decent of him really, they could just have stood by the original UK agreement.
		
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Don't fall for the rhetoric.
IMO you always look to lay the blame on England and make everything the UK's fault?

It was Barnier who declared we could not discuss the future relationship before withdrawl. A crazy and artificial state of affairs: there is no logic to such a dictum. Anyone with an once of logic would want to talk about the UK/EU relationship in the 'round' so that we only dismantle what will not be needed in the future and retain and enhance those processes we wish to develop. ( I do not suggest the UK is not also at fault)

Of course the Barnier strategy is entirely logical if the main aim is to shackle the UK to the EU then; the entire focus is about disrupting negotiations to make life difficult and create an artificial  'cliff edge' by making a song and dance about a border control - which if the future relationship was integrated/agreed might not be needed in the same way as with 'any' 3rd party.

It (Barner's stance) is entirely consistent with trying to make UK stay in and the EU refusing to accept a member state making it own decision.


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## Foxholer (Mar 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			Don't fall for the rhetoric.
IMO you always look to lay the blame on England and make everything the UK's fault?

It was Barnier who declared we could not discuss the future relationship before withdrawl. A crazy and artificial state of affairs: there is no logic to such a dictum. Anyone with an once of logic would want to talk about the UK/EU relationship in the 'round' so that we only dismantle what will not be needed in the future and retain and enhance those processes we wish to develop. ( I do not suggest the UK is not also at fault)

Of course the Barnier strategy is entirely logical if the main aim is to shackle the UK to the EU then; the entire focus is about disrupting negotiations to make life difficult and create an artificial  'cliff edge' by making a song and dance about a border control - which if the future relationship was integrated/agreed might not be needed in the same way as with 'any' 3rd party.

It (Barner's stance) is entirely consistent with trying to make UK stay in and the EU refusing to accept a member state making it own decision.
		
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I might question/disagree with some of your conclusions/preferences, but absolutely agree with your assessment here!

Of course, Tusk is working for the 'best interests of the EU Project' so it's thoroughly reasonable for him to take the stance he has!


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## drdel (Mar 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I might question/disagree with some of your conclusions/preferences, but absolutely agree with your assessment here!

Of course, *Tusk is working for the 'best interests of the EU Project' so it's thoroughly reasonable *for him to take the stance he has!
		
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Yup. So the UK has to be robust in what's best for us. Trouble is the standard of intellect and behaviour of some of our elected members leaves a lot to be desired !!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			Yup. So the UK has to be robust in what's best for us. Trouble is the standard of intellect and behaviour of some of our elected members leaves a lot to be desired !!
		
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What if 'what's best for US' is a deal that will bring more poverty, isolation and disruption to the UK.
That is what appears to be on the table.
In my opinion, 66% my countries opinion and at least 50% of the UK populations opinion, 'what's best for us is to cancel Brexit'.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 17, 2019)

I'm convinced the magic money tree will reappear and TM's current deal will get bribed err i mean voted through Parliament next week.


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## Mudball (Mar 17, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			I'm convinced the magic money tree will reappear and TM's current deal will get bribed err i mean voted through Parliament next week.
		
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I have the same sinking feeling.. itâ€™s all gone remarkably quiet .. plenty of horse trading in the back room


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## Big Jim (Mar 17, 2019)

I'm new on here,s o forgive me if its been said before, but why don't we just tell the EU to get fked, keep the billions from the divorce bill. then undercut the EU on everything and offer tax incentives for all the companies who already trade here, but base HQ overseas and pay little or no tax anyway??


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## Tashyboy (Mar 17, 2019)

Big Jim said:



			I'm new on here,s o forgive me if its been said before, but why don't we just tell the EU to get fked, keep the billions from the divorce bill. then undercut the EU on everything and offer tax incentives for all the companies who already trade here, but base HQ overseas and pay little or no tax anyway??
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I have the same sinking feeling.. itâ€™s all gone remarkably quiet .. plenty of horse trading in the back room
		
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Or, it could be the weekend.


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## drdel (Mar 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What if 'what's best for US' is a deal that will *bring more poverty, isolation and disruption to the UK*.
That is what appears to be on the table.
In my opinion, 66% my countries opinion and at least 50% of the UK populations opinion, 'what's best for us is to cancel Brexit'.
		
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So you have no faith in the UK's capabilities !!!

It would be realistic/mature if you'd recognise the Brexit vote was by the whole population of the UK. The latest polls are showing that because of the anti-UK rhetoric from Juncker, Tusk et al, attitudes have hardened and the margin for leaving has increased.


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## User62651 (Mar 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			So you have no faith in the UK's capabilities !!!

It would be realistic/mature if you'd recognise the Brexit vote was by the whole population of the UK. The latest polls are showing that because of the *anti-UK rhetoric from Juncker, Tusk et al*, attitudes have hardened and *the margin for leaving has increased*.
		
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Interested to see these polls.
Going by pitiful support for Farage's march yesterday, that claim of an increased margin for leave looks a dubious claim. The balance of 54 polls is graphed here showing a clear and increasing lead for remain -
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...he-european-union-asked-after-the-referendum/

Also what anti-UK rhetoric, some frustration with UK is understandable, they'd rather we stayed in remember, also English is not their first language so shouldn't take to much from the odd tweet. They're just waiting for UK parliament to agree the WA and have been waiting for months now.


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## drdel (Mar 17, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Interested to see these polls.
Going by pitiful support for Farage's march yesterday, that claim of an increased margin for leave looks a dubious claim. The balance of 54 polls is graphed here showing a clear and increasing lead for remain -
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...he-european-union-asked-after-the-referendum/

Also what anti-UK rhetoric, some frustration with UK is understandable, they'd rather we stayed in remember, also English is not their first language so shouldn't take to much from the odd tweet. They're just waiting for UK parliament to agree the WA and have been waiting for months now.
		
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It is not 54 polls its 1 poll done on several single days of about 1,000 people - their latest for Daily Mail on 15th March


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2019)

Big Jim said:



			I'm new on here,s o forgive me if its been said before, but why don't we just tell the EU to get fked, keep the billions from the divorce bill. then undercut the EU on everything and offer tax incentives for all the companies who already trade here, but base HQ overseas and pay little or no tax anyway??
		
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I'm no Alan Sugar but because its probably not the best tactic to tell the biggest trading bloc in the world that handily also happens geographically to be very close, that we can not be trusted to pay our agreed obligations and to go forth and multiply. Plus a policy of undercutting on everything is possibly not the best to raise taxes.


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## drdel (Mar 17, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm no Alan Sugar but because its probably not the best tactic to tell the biggest trading bloc in the world that handily also happens geographically to be very close, that we can not be trusted to pay our agreed obligations and to go forth and multiply. Plus a policy of undercutting on everything is possibly not the best to raise taxes.
		
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True. However that was in the past: today and going forward the EU is a mature market saturated by over supply and growth has been artificially facilitated by the Juncker/ECB's huge QE which they admit is not sustainable. The emerging markets for the UK are more global but the EU's continued belief in the 'internal' market is fundamentally flawed as a future strategy, the EU is just too cumbersome a structure of member states with widely different economies. Ireland is already demanding further tranches of cash. like many members. With so few net contributors from who is the question: Germany is highly exposed because of its heavy reliance on manufacturing , with France and Italy also in a mess.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2019)

drdel said:



*True.* However that was in the past: today and going forward the EU is a mature market saturated by over supply and growth has been artificially facilitated by the Juncker/ECB's huge QE which they admit is not sustainable. The emerging markets for the UK are more global but the EU's continued belief in the 'internal' market is fundamentally flawed as a future strategy, the EU is just too cumbersome a structure of member states with widely different economies. Ireland is already demanding further tranches of cash. like many members. With so few net contributors from who is the question: Germany is highly exposed because of its heavy reliance on manufacturing , with France and Italy also in a mess.
		
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You had me at true   The rest of the post may or may not be a current summary of the current situation, but today lots of Uk companies still need to sell the EU stuff (told you I'm no Alan Sugar).  And we still need to buy their BMWs as we are constantly told.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 17, 2019)

I watched corbyn on sky with sophy ridge talking about Labours cunning plan regarding Brexit,  Old catweazle was coming out with his usual nonsense about labours action plans.
It appears the 6 point plan has changed into a common market 2.0 ? Fed up with corbyns bollocks ridge asks the question JC hates the most 

SRâ€¦. whatâ€™s Labours position leave the EU?
Jc â€¦ our position is to recognise the referendum result
SRâ€¦. what does that mean? Everybody knows the result! 
Jc .. (wobbling) well there was a majority that voted leave but labour is unique. As we want to recognise both leave and remain! ( waffling about poverty social issues)
SRâ€¦ ( now terse) do you want to leave the EU? You havenâ€™t answered what I asked you!
Jcâ€¦ well I know thatâ€™s not what you asked me , but, but ( more wobbling) we want a relationship with Eu
SRâ€¦ ( eyes rolling) do you want to leave the EU?
Jcâ€¦ (flat on his back) more waffle
Srâ€¦ Iâ€™m sorry I donâ€™t want to keep asking it but Iâ€™m confused as are many who voted for you in the general electionâ€¦. 

Absolutely pricelessâ€¦..


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## Mudball (Mar 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Or, it could be the weekend.
		
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Or it is horse trading..

Phil Hammond on more money for DUP to buy votes ...

_He (Hammond) did not rule out a financial settlement for Northern Ireland if the DUP backed the deal.

Mr Hammond said they did not have the numbers "yet" to secure Mrs May's deal, adding: "It is a work in progress"_

Indeed.. we are all in this together..


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Or it is horse trading..

Phil Hammond on more money for DUP to buy votes ...

_He (Hammond) did not rule out a financial settlement for Northern Ireland if the DUP backed the deal._

_Mr Hammond said they did not have the numbers "yet" to secure Mrs May's deal, adding: "It is a work in progress"_

Indeed.. we are all in this together..
		
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I think it's a fitting end (well I say end as in theory the withdrawal agreement is the very first part of the process) to the debacle in that the tax payer will end up having to bung a bunch of MPs with some very backwards views and who represent a minute proportion of the electorate, yet more vast sums of money to get the deal through that no one really wants and most economic projections say will make us worse off.  Well done everybody


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2019)

Forgets to pay money made on renting his property but remembers to claim for a 49p pint of milk.
Cross reference that to a benefit sanction for a missed appointment due to an emergency hospital visit


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1107190036510969858


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## harpo_72 (Mar 17, 2019)

So given all of this phaffing about would you vote for the Tories again?


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So given all of this phaffing about would you vote for the Tories again?
		
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No, not without a radical change to their make-up. Same applies to me voting Labour, and LibDems.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So given all of this phaffing about would you vote for the Tories again?
		
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Who else is there to vote for!?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So given all of this phaffing about would you vote for the Tories again?
		
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Genuine question, Did you see the Brexit vote as a vote along party lines? or are you judging the tory party as a government based on their handling of Brexit?

I didnâ€™t and hoped others wouldnâ€™t of made their decision on Brexit based on party politics, Brexit has been good for the government in that a lot of domestic issues are being over-looked or swept under the carpet.


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Genuine question, Did you see the Brexit vote as a vote along party lines? or are you judging the tory party as a government based on their handling of Brexit?

I didnâ€™t and hoped others wouldnâ€™t of made their decision on Brexit based on party politics, Brexit has been good for the government in that a lot of domestic issues are being over-looked or swept under the carpet.
		
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I didn't see the Brexit vote as a party issue, and perhaps evidenced by the number of voters from the 3 main parties who voted Leave. I'm disappointed that the 2 main parties have, in the main, resorted to the issue being used as a vehicle to further their own ambitions.

I don't feel many other issues have slipped under the radar because there hasn't been that many policies courtesy of the, almost, constant focus on Brexit.


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## Dando (Mar 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Forgets to pay money made on renting his property but remembers to claim for a 49p pint of milk.
Cross reference that to a benefit sanction for a missed appointment due to an emergency hospital visit


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1107190036510969858

Click to expand...

what has this got to do with brexit


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So given all of this phaffing about would you vote for the Tories again?
		
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Weirdly enough I never voted for them in the 1st place. But as a self confessed woolly liberal I am feeling increasingly lost in a world of ideology and dogma led politics where the extremists seem to lead far too much of the agenda. On both sides.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So given all of this phaffing about would you vote for the Tories again?
		
Click to expand...

If I refuse to vote for a party that has been faffing then it would be a split between the 'Raving mad loony party' or 'Vegetarian Bikers against Fox hunting'


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## Foxholer (Mar 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What if 'what's best for US' is a deal that will bring more poverty, isolation and disruption to the UK.
That is what appears to be on the table.
In my opinion, 66% my countries opinion and at least *50% of the UK populations opinion, 'what's best for us is to cancel Brexit'*.
		
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You've obviously got your numbers wrong, otherwise the referendum result would have been different! 

'What ifs' are (generally) entirely managable. And I believe that's precisely the case here! It's the 'WTF! Whre did that come from' that causes problems!


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You've obviously got your numbers wrong, otherwise the referendum result would have been different!

'What ifs' are (generally) entirely managable. And I believe that's precisely the case here! It's the 'WTF! Whre did that come from' that causes problems!
		
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Especially as Scotland's Brexit result was 62%. Not like Doom to get his facts wrong.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2019)

I see Farage's Brexit peoples march has attracted massive crowds of about 30.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Especially as Scotland's Brexit result was 62%. Not like Doom to get his facts wrong.

Click to expand...

Going by recent polls.........â€¦.30 months down the road now you know.
Quite a few auldies have passed on and the young yins have a bit more of an idea what a modern world looks like.


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## Dando (Mar 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Going by recent polls.........â€¦.30 months down the road now you know.
Quite a few auldies have passed on and the young yins have a bit more of an idea what a modern world looks like.
		
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Recent polls mean diddly squat.
Also most of the youngsters probably would vote as theyâ€™d have to get of bed or it might be raining


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## Slime (Mar 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Going by recent polls.........â€¦.30 months down the road now you know.
*Quite a few auldies have passed on *and the young yins have a bit more of an idea what a modern world looks like.
		
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.................. and quite a few middle aged people have since become auldies, or doesn't that count/fit your agenda?


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## Dando (Mar 17, 2019)

Slime said:



			.................. and quite a few middle aged people have since become auldies, or doesn't that count/fit your agenda?  

Click to expand...

OF course it doesnâ€™t


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## Mudball (Mar 17, 2019)

There is a bit of Irony.. 

.. T-RexMay does not want to give people a second vote - lest they change their mind..  but we have to stick to the will of the people 
.. She will however bring her same deal to Parliament and assume that MPs will change their minds..   (maybe even bribe them to overlook the challenges) 

When People voted 49:51 it is assume to be comprehensive but when the MPs vote some 65:35 against the deal it is not considered comprehensive but reversible

.. So MPs can change minds but people cant?   Why oh Why??


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			There is a bit of Irony..

.. T-RexMay does not want to give people a second vote - lest they change their mind..  but we have to stick to the will of the people
.. She will however bring her same deal to Parliament and assume that MPs will change their minds..   (maybe even bribe them to overlook the challenges)

When People voted 49:51 it is assume to be comprehensive but when the MPs vote some 65:35 against the deal it is not considered comprehensive but reversible

.. So MPs can change minds but people cant?   Why oh Why??
		
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Groan!!! 
If you placed all you have on red and the roulette ball came to rest on black should you be allowed another spin of the wheel as the odds were 50/50 .

If we toss a coin , heads or tails who gets the round in and I said I  am betting heads but want tails taken off the table would you say, "what are you drinking"

If the honorable gentleman for east cheam promised you a cheque was in the post would you order the new set of Pings in advance.


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## Mudball (Mar 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Groan!!! 
If you placed all you have on red and the roulette ball came to rest on black should you be allowed another spin of the wheel as the odds were 50/50  ðŸ™„
		
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I think that question should be directed at May.. if you havenâ€™t realised the frustration in my post was at May playing Russian roulette with the country.  She wants MPs to have 2 spins while the equally competent countrymen are allowed only one ..


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I think that question should be directed at May.. if you havenâ€™t realised the frustration in my post was at May playing Russian roulette with the country.  She wants MPs to have 2 spins while the equally competent countrymen are allowed only one ..
		
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wait until i have finished editing before you reply ðŸ˜œ


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## Mudball (Mar 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			wait until i have finished editing before you reply ðŸ˜œ
		
Click to expand...

The ðŸ˜œ seems to be your standard backstop and get out of jail card these days ðŸ˜œ ðŸ˜œðŸ˜œðŸ˜œðŸ˜œ


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47585803  This kind of thing is very real and if we end up bunging DUP MPs even more of taxpayers money to get the deal through instead of investing in our kids futures I'll be very miffed to say the least.


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## robinthehood (Mar 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47585803  This kind of thing is very real and if we end up bunging DUP MPs even more of taxpayers money to get the deal through instead of investing in our kids futures I'll be very miffed to say the least.
		
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We can use the 350 mil a week from the bus.


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## jp5 (Mar 18, 2019)

Eh, what's another billion to the DUP in the scheme of things.


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2019)

If paying the DUP moves things forward, go for it!


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## Crazyface (Mar 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If paying the DUP moves things forward, go for it!
		
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But that's for a bum deal. Anyway, you're in sunny Spain, what do you care as you watch proceedings from over the froth on your 500ml glass?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If paying the DUP moves things forward, go for it!
		
Click to expand...

Please tell me you forgot to add emojiâ€™s to this! ie


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1107389470536617986


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2019)

Slime said:



			.................. and quite a few middle aged people have since become auldies, or doesn't that count/fit your agenda?  

Click to expand...

No
In 2014 there was a large age group banding of Scots who did not support Indy [and probably EU membership] at 65+.
If the vote had stopped at 55 years old it would have been a clear win for independence.
It is basically a tic toc situation unless many of the 58 to 67 year olds change their minds.
With the current Wastemonster mucking fuddle I would imagine that is very unlikely.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Eh, what's another billion to the DUP in the scheme of things.
		
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Did someone say that the Tories bribed/bunged the DUP more money than Comic Relief raised in 31 years.
If true that is a bit of a wow.


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please tell me you forgot to add emojiâ€™s to this! ie 

Click to expand...

You spotted it!!

I thought seeing as we were getting the village idiots posting any old rubbish I'd join in too...


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2019)

God forbid someone is making it up, but any chance of a link where it indicates NI will be getting more money above what was already promised.


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## User62651 (Mar 18, 2019)

Is Bercow about to chuck a spanner in May's 3rd MV plan? - seems to be building up to that presently with a lengthy speech and 19th century precedents.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Is Bercow about to chuck a spanner in May's 3rd MV plan? - seems to be building up to that presently with a lengthy speech and 19th century precedents.

Click to expand...

He likes the sound of his own voice today.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 18, 2019)

looks like hes put a lid on MV3 !


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## User62651 (Mar 18, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			He likes the sound of his own voice today.
		
Click to expand...

He did seem to go on a bit but I think he knows it's a big call and was trying to justify it fully........in his own wordy way! 

What next? Short delay with No Deal or a long delay and total renegotiation? if it is the latter May needs to go this week. Fresh blood needed.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 18, 2019)

If the same proposition can't be brought before the house again does this mean that a 2nd referendum has now also been ruled out? MPs voted and rejected the idea of a 2nd referendum when they voted on it last week and this decision seems to rule out them being able to vote on it again. Could the speaker just have inadvertently scuppered those that want us to remain in the EU?


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2019)

I think the man has just been found out.


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## User62651 (Mar 18, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I think the man has just been found out.
		
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Maybe he's done us all a favour if it forces the resignation of T May as PM? She has no hand left to play other than go with No Deal and quit or go back to Brussels asking for a full renegotiation which will also means she has to quit, doesn't it?


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## spongebob59 (Mar 18, 2019)

I wouldn't trust him if he said hello


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I wouldn't trust him if he said hello 

Click to expand...

Nor does the leader of the house.


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## Big Jim (Mar 18, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I wouldn't trust him if he said hello 

Click to expand...

i'm not surprised, he's a tory!


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2019)

Big Jim said:



			i'm not surprised, he's a tory!
		
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Is he.


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## Big Jim (Mar 18, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Is he. 

Click to expand...

wasn't he conservative MP for Buckingham before becoming speaker, or doesn't that count?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			If the same proposition can't be brought before the house again does this mean that a 2nd referendum has now also been ruled out? MPs voted and rejected the idea of a 2nd referendum when they voted on it last week and this decision seems to rule out them being able to vote on it again. Could the speaker just have inadvertently scuppered those that want us to remain in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

I think it depends on whether it was a vote in the house to show their wishes or a vote that is legally enforceable (again draw your own parallels with the original referendum here). And the one on the second referendum was just one to show their wishes on the subject, it was not ruling one out for ever. Hence the reason why Labour whipped their MPs to abstain as they thought there may well be a better time to get the proposal accepted.  Or it may be that you could bring the vote on a second referendum back in a slightly different format and that is OK. But I may be talking garbage as very few people do seem to know every arcane rule about parliamentary business and as we are in such uncharted territory it's hard to keep up.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 18, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Is Bercow about to chuck a spanner in May's 3rd MV plan? - seems to be building up to that presently with a lengthy speech and 19th century precedents.

Click to expand...

The trouble is with being in the remain or Brexit camp is that people only begin to hear what they want. I said last week when this was first mentioned it could pee on a few peoples parades be it Brexiteers or remainers.
When the first vote was massively rejected. Theresa May was able to go back to the EU and " negotiate " a better deal, allegadly. That is why she was able to come back with a new second proposal. Which again was rejected. This possible third vote, what exactly has changed. To the best of my knowledge nowt. All the leaders of the EU are supposed to agree on any changes and they have not met yet, plus they said " don't bother coming back". We will only know once the legal eagles have had a look. If it is nowt, we won't get a third vote.
What narks me was the Scotish guy on QT last week said that we should not of had the second vote as it broke Parliment law. He was either lying when he said it, or simply did not know what the ruling was. Either way it was very poor. What was worse was no one was able pull him up and say he was wrong.


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## User62651 (Mar 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			If the same proposition can't be brought before the house again does this mean that a 2nd referendum has now also been ruled out? MPs voted and rejected the idea of a 2nd referendum when they voted on it last week and this decision seems to rule out them being able to vote on it again. Could the speaker just have inadvertently scuppered those that want us to remain in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

Don't need a 2nd ref to stay in, we are still in at the moment and there seems to be no easy way to leave, that parliament can agree. Depends on the legal status of leaving on 29th I suppose. Currently in parliament we have -

No 'No Deal'.
No 'May deal'
No '2nd ref'
No '3rd Meaningful vote'

What's left other than staying put for now whilst they extend A50 and try and renegotiate, if EU27 agrees?


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2019)

Rumours from Germany that Italy and 2 other country's  may veto any request of an extension for the U.K.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2019)

Rumours on twitter has it that a general election is now looking more likely.  With a harder Brexiteer leading the Conservatives V Corbyn.  So the manifesto choices will be a jump into the unknown with either a hard brexit or hard socialism.  This should be fun!


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## robinthehood (Mar 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Rumours on twitter has it that a general election is now looking more likely.  With a harder Brexiteer leading the Conservatives V Corbyn.  So the manifesto choices will be a hard brexit or hard socialism.  This should be fun!
		
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Yes but at least we will have taken back  control and fixed the nhs ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## IanM (Mar 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes but at least we will have taken back  control and fixed the nhs ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Thats like saying... "Who will win the Masters?" and replying "Coffee with sugar please!"


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## Sweep (Mar 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did someone say that the Tories bribed/bunged the DUP more money than Comic Relief raised in 31 years.
If true that is a bit of a wow.
		
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I can only imagine it was some lefty celebrity luvvie who thinks the world revolves around Comic Relief who came up with this really lame statistic.
Very few, if any, companies turn over the budget of a major national economy, let alone charities. Has Comic Relief raised 1 billion in 31 years? I would doubt it. If it has itâ€™s a staggering achievement. National governments regularly work in billions. 
The two are in no way remotely comparable.
So actually not a bit of a wow at all.


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## IanM (Mar 18, 2019)

Comic Relief money down this year..... BBC will blame Brexit, I will blame David Lammy!   Our office diverted the proceeds from collection to a local Hospice this year, didnt want to patronise anyone...


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I can only imagine it was some lefty celebrity luvvie who thinks the world revolves around Comic Relief who came up with this really lame statistic.
Very few, if any, companies turn over the budget of a major national economy, let alone charities. *Has Comic Relief raised 1 billion in 31 years? I would doubt it. If it has itâ€™s a staggering achievement*. National governments regularly work in billions.
The two are in no way remotely comparable.
So actually not a bit of a wow at all.
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-31874360


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## Fade and Die (Mar 18, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Don't need a 2nd ref to stay in, we are still in at the moment and there seems to be no easy way to leave, that parliament can agree. Depends on the legal status of leaving on 29th I suppose. Currently in parliament we have -

No 'No Deal'.
No 'May deal'
No '2nd ref'
No '3rd Meaningful vote'

What's left other than staying put for now whilst they extend A50 and try and renegotiate, if EU27 agrees?
		
Click to expand...


She can close parliament then re-open it 3 days later as a "New session" then ask the same question again but its a bit desperate! Also I think we are still heading for a no deal Brexit in 11 days time as nothing has changed the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2019)

The Tories could end up with their last 2 leaders calling a referendum on Brexit when there was no need to do it and then managing to leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement.  Despite the fact that there is no clear mandate to leave with no deal from the public and a clear desire not to do that from MPs . That's quite a legacy of incompetence there, what is it with the Tories and bloody Europe?? Good job we have a very electable opposition to capitalise on that though.....


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## Dando (Mar 18, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Rumours from Germany that Italy and 2 other country's  may veto any request of an extension for the U.K.
		
Click to expand...

Then we should tell the EU to shove it, leave and not pay them the ransom they wanted.
Iâ€™m sure theyâ€™ll soon crap their pants at having a massive black hole in their numbers


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			She can close parliament then re-open it 3 days later as a "New session" then ask the same question again but its a bit desperate!* Also I think we are still heading for a no deal Brexit in 11 days time *as nothing has changed the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018
		
Click to expand...

Paddy Power are offering 5 to 1 on that. Pile in!!


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## Mudball (Mar 18, 2019)

The speaker has done the right thing of denying Maybot the opportunity to bring her deal to the table again if it has not changed.   I already raised this a few days ago..    In this bonkers world, People cannot change their mind on a 'non-legally binding' referendum but MPs allowed to change mind on a Meaningful vote!!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Paddy Power are offering 5 to 1 on that. Pile in!!
		
Click to expand...

888 offering 11/4 on article 50 being revoked .. more sensible bet ðŸ¤­


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



*She can close parliament then re-open it 3 days later as a "New session" then ask the same question again but its a bit desperate! *Also I think we are still heading for a no deal Brexit in 11 days time as nothing has changed the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018
		
Click to expand...

Too right, switching it off and back on again is a sensible technique to get my Sky Box working.  But I'd argue not the best tactic to employ when dealing with one of the most important political decisions this country has made in the last few decades.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2019)

Shut down then change the locks.


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## IainP (Mar 18, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Is Bercow about to chuck a spanner in May's 3rd MV plan? - seems to be building up to that presently with a lengthy speech and 19th century precedents.

Click to expand...

More importantly what might this do to Hacker Khan's betting pool? ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The speaker has done the right thing of denying Maybot the opportunity to bring her deal to the table again if it has not changed.   I already raised this a few days ago..    In this bonkers world, People cannot change their mind on a 'non-legally binding' referendum but MPs allowed to change mind on a Meaningful vote!!
		
Click to expand...

Wrong.  Its not the referendum that has any binding role now, it's the acts of parliament that have been made law with Royal Assent, to change us leaving the EU without a deal this would need repealing.  In a way Bercow has made leaving without a deal more of a probability.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Paddy Power are offering 5 to 1 on that. Pile in!!
		
Click to expand...

Is that the same Paddy Power that were offering 8 to 1 on Leave winning the referendum?


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Shut down then change the locks.
		
Click to expand...

And this time be careful who gets the keys.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And this time be careful who gets the keys.
		
Click to expand...

Throw them in the Thames.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Throw them in the Thames.
		
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And the keys ðŸ˜


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2019)

IainP said:



			More importantly what might this do to Hacker Khan's betting pool? ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

I'm playing the long game, plenty of time yet before now and the end of March.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Is that the same Paddy Power that were offering 8 to 1 on Leave winning the referendum?
		
Click to expand...

Indeed they were, there's value to be had if you know where to look.


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## Sweep (Mar 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			The Tories could end up with their last 2 leaders calling a referendum on Brexit when there was no need to do it and then managing to leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement.  Despite the fact that there is no clear mandate to leave with no deal from the public and a clear desire not to do that from MPs . That's quite a legacy of incompetence there, what is it with the Tories and bloody Europe?? Good job we have a very electable opposition to capitalise on that though.....
		
Click to expand...

I am not sure you can say there was no need to call the referendum. There were clearly 17.4 million reasons to call it.
And if you think the EU (not Europe) is only a Tory issue, you are mistaken.


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## Sweep (Mar 18, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The speaker has done the right thing of denying Maybot the opportunity to bring her deal to the table again if it has not changed.   I already raised this a few days ago..    In this bonkers world, People cannot change their mind on a 'non-legally binding' referendum but MPs allowed to change mind on a Meaningful vote!!
		
Click to expand...

The question is, exactly how much does it need to change?


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## harpo_72 (Mar 18, 2019)

Sweep said:



			I am not sure you can say there was no need to call the referendum. There were clearly 17.4 million reasons to call it.
And if you think the EU (not Europe) is only a Tory issue, you are mistaken.
		
Click to expand...

That has come to the surface for sure. 


Sweep said:



			The question is, exactly how much does it need to change?
		
Click to expand...

It has to change without some form of bribery.. watching the DUP prance about acting important and looking enriched is disgusting and the thought of paying off MPs for votes doesnâ€™t sound like democracy.
So the speaker did the right thing, stop pedalling a sh@t deal and get a proper one or give up. The extension is highly unlikely, no deal will probably scar the Tories for life , so there is an incentive to do a good deal.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2019)

I see the usual right wing papers are all piling in on Bercow on their front pages.

I'm assuming they are angry that he is ensuring the British parliament, that will be taking back control from the EU, functions as it is meant to do and is not rode roughshod over.

And it was all going so well anyway apart from this last minute hiccup.....


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see the usual right wing papers are all piling in on Bercow on their front pages.

I'm assuming they are angry that he is ensuring the British parliament, that will be taking back control from the EU, functions as it is meant to do and is not rode roughshod over.

And it was all going so well anyway apart from this last minute hiccup.....
		
Click to expand...

There is no doubt in my mind Bercow is using his position with a political bias.


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## Foxholer (Mar 19, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			...To the best of my knowledge nowt. All the leaders of the EU are supposed to agree on any changes and they have not met yet, plus they said " don't bother coming back"....
		
Click to expand...

Are they? I thought they had given the responsibility for negotiating a deal to the negotiating team. And have been kept up to date with progress at times through the process.



Tashyboy said:



			...
What narks me was the Scotish guy on QT last week said that we should not of had the second vote as it broke Parliment law. He was either lying when he said it, or simply did not know what the ruling was. Either way it was very poor. What was worse was no one was able pull him up and say he was wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Seems he was correct though!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There is no doubt in my mind Bercow is using his position with a political bias.
		
Click to expand...

So what should he have done when asked to clarify the position on bringing back the exact same vote?


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## spongebob59 (Mar 19, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1107960405190688768


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 19, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1107960405190688768

Click to expand...

These â€œreportersâ€ need to learn respect, heâ€™s polite and yet they continue to badger him.
If the BBC want an interview they should request it through the proper channels, no ambush someone on the streets trying to get a scoop!


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## User62651 (Mar 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			These â€œreportersâ€ need to learn respect, heâ€™s polite and yet they continue to badger him.
If the BBC want an interview they should request it through the proper channels, no ambush someone on the streets trying to get a scoop!
		
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Agreed, been watching too much 'rogue traders'. Harassment from journos is perhaps justifiable with some clear evidence of criminality, not just for doing your job.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Agreed, been watching too much 'rogue traders'. Harassment from journos is perhaps justifiable with some clear evidence of criminality, not just for doing your job.
		
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I normally stick up a lot for the BBC but this was pretty poor.  He literally explained his thought process in the HOC which was broadcast for all to see and hear. it's kind of stooping down to the level of the headlines on the front pages of the Sun, Mail and Express which is never a good look really.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 19, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I normally stick up a lot for the BBC but this was pretty poor.  He literally explained his thought process in the HOC which was broadcast for all to see and hear. it's kind of stooping down to the level of the headlines on the front pages of the Sun, Mail and Express which is never a good look really.
		
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He just sounded desperate! Bercow was even more interested in the blokes welfare than he was himself.
Should of let him get knocked down, heâ€™d of made his own headline then.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 19, 2019)

Wait for the next nut job to find out his route.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 19, 2019)

Just seen on the BBC lunchtime news that a French minister has called her cat Brexit. Because it sits by the door and miaows to be let out but then when you open the door it just sits there and refuses to go. That probably amused me more than it should have done but I did have a good chuckle at it.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 19, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Wait for the next nut job to find out his route.
		
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Which thye've just posted on twitter 

Guido hears that when he was doorstepped, Bercow was returning from gym this morning. His normal route through the tunnel from Portcullis House underneath Westminster Bridge Road. Despite the rain he chose today to go the longer, outside route entering by St Stephens...


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So what should he have done when asked to clarify the position on bringing back the exact same vote?
		
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I would suggest he should have allowed the vote on the basis it may pass and bring an end to this matter dragging on.  I suspect that he is blocking it not as a mater of procedure but as a way to frustrate Brexit and hopefully kill it off.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Which thye've just posted on twitter 

Guido hears that when he was doorstepped, Bercow was returning from gym this morning. His normal route through the tunnel from Portcullis House underneath Westminster Bridge Road. Despite the rain he chose today to go the longer, outside route entering by St Stephens...
		
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I wonder why.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I would suggest he should have allowed the vote on the basis it may pass and bring an end to this matter dragging on.  I suspect that he is blocking it not as a mater of procedure but as a way to frustrate Brexit and hopefully kill it off.
		
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I imagine that's what the Sun, Express, Mail etc want people to think based on their headlines today. 

Imagine the fuss there would be if he ignored constitutional precedent to let the house vote on a subject with no substantial changes where they have previously rejected it with the first and 4th largest defeats ever in history for a government motion. On the off chance it may get through now. 

As all golfers should know, rules are rules and are not there to be ignored now and then just because the PM has decided that attrition and fear of the alternative is the only desperate tactic she has left. He's there to stick up for parliament as a whole, not bail out any current government, no matter how incompetent they are.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 19, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I imagine that's what the Sun, Express, Mail etc want people to think based on their headlines today.

*Imagine the fuss there would be if he ignored constitutional precedent* to let the house vote on a subject with no substantial changes where they have previously rejected it with the first and 4th largest defeats ever in history for a government motion. On the off chance it may get through now.
		
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You mean like he was accused of doing in January when he ignored legal advice and precedent to allow votes on amendments to a government motion and afterwards said "if we only went by precedent, manifestly nothing would ever change"?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I imagine that's what the Sun, Express, Mail etc want people to think based on their headlines today.

Imagine the fuss there would be if he ignored constitutional precedent to let the house vote on a subject with no substantial changes where they have previously rejected it with the first and 4th largest defeats ever in history for a government motion. On the off chance it may get through now.

As all golfers should know, rules are rules and are not there to be ignored now and then just because the PM has decided that attrition and fear of the alternative is the only desperate tactic she has left. He's there to stick up for parliament as a whole, not bail out any current government, no matter how incompetent they are.
		
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I am not interested what newspapers say and the last time this rule was applied was 1912, he does not have to apply it. This isn't some minor bit of parliamentary business but the biggest issue in our constitutional history for over a century.  It's not the time for showboating and playing games, this vote is very important not only to parliament but to try and create some certainty to business and peoples lives. IMO the man is bloated with his own importance and using his position to support his personal standing on Brexit.  I just cant understand anyone not seeing that.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am not interested what newspapers say and the last time this rule was applied was 1912, he does not have to apply it. This isn't some minor bit of parliamentary business but the biggest issue in our constitutional history for over a century.  It's not the time for showboating and playing games, *this vote is very important not only to parliament but to try and create some certainty to business and peoples lives*. IMO the man is bloated with his own importance and using his position to support his personal standing on Brexit.  I just cant understand anyone not seeing that.
		
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I know it is, that's why we've had it twice already, once more than the referendum in fact.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I know it is, that's why we've had it twice already, once more than the referendum in fact. 

Click to expand...

OK, maybe I should have said its a way of delivering the peoples choice frustrated by their representatives


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## Tashyboy (Mar 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Are they? I thought they had given the responsibility for negotiating a deal to the negotiating team. And have been kept up to date with progress at times through the process.


Seems he was correct though!
		
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No he said we should not of had the second vote when it had been changed. The vote that has been stopped is correct. Nothing has been changed. As much as i voted Brexit. The law is the law. Stopping the vote is correct.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am not interested what newspapers say and the last time this rule was applied was 1912, he does not have to apply it. This isn't some minor bit of parliamentary business but the biggest issue in our constitutional history for over a century.  It's not the time for showboating and playing games, this vote is very important not only to parliament but to try and create some certainty to business and peoples lives. IMO the man is bloated with his own importance and using his position to support his personal standing on Brexit.  I just cant understand anyone not seeing that.
		
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So any deal even a bad is acceptable so long as we are out!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So any deal even a bad is acceptable so long as we are out!
		
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Some would rather we completely screw over the country, send us into recession and put us back decades so long as we are out.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, maybe I should have said its a way of delivering the peoples choice frustrated by their representatives 

Click to expand...

But even then it is not that simple.  It is/was just another vote that may or may not get through.  Before Bercow did his thing the noises were that they would not have it next week unless they were completely sure they had bought off the DUP, sorry, got assurances from the DUP that they would support her.  Plus there are still a few ERGers making noises that they would not support it. So he could well of allowed the vote, the she would have lost, again, and we would be no nearer to 'delivering the people's choice' but even closer to March 29th. And whlst it will make a charity of my choice Â£20, I find it baffling that so many MPs would suddenly change their mind on exactly the same proposal purely down to the fact that the vote is held a week or so later.


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## Foxholer (Mar 19, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			No he said we should not of had the second vote when it had been changed. The vote that has been stopped is correct. Nothing has been changed. As much as i voted Brexit. The law is the law. Stopping the vote is correct.
		
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Hang on! Who are you talking about? I was talking about the EU (and their 'team'). You seem to be talking about Bercow and his (quite legitimate imo) rulng.And it's not 'law' as such, but the UK 'constitution' as much as there is one from established principles.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So any deal even a bad is acceptable so long as we are out!
		
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Did I say that.


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## Foxholer (Mar 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am not interested what newspapers say and the last time this rule was applied was 1912, *he does not have to apply it.* This isn't some minor bit of parliamentary business but the biggest issue in our constitutional history for over a century.  It's not the time for showboating and playing games, this vote is very important not only to parliament but to try and create some certainty to business and peoples lives. IMO the man is bloated with his own importance and using his position to support his personal standing on Brexit.  I just cant understand anyone not seeing that.
		
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Yes he does!

He was specifically asked for a ruling - and has made that ruling. That's (part of) his job! Which is the reason for 'his' traditional reluctance at the Opening of Parliament. His rulings may not be appreciated!

It doesn't matter horw trivial or important the issue is. The Speaker needs to make his ruling according t0o UK's 'constitution'!

And, in this case, I totally support his ruling - chaos inducing as it could well be!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			But even then it is not that simple.  It is/was just another vote that may or may not get through.  Before Bercow did his thing the noises were that they would not have it next week unless they were completely sure they had bought off the DUP, sorry, got assurances from the DUP that they would support her.  Plus there are still a few ERGers making noises that they would not support it. So he could well of allowed the vote, the she would have lost, again, and we would be no nearer to 'delivering the people's choice' but even closer to March 29th. And whlst it will make a charity of my choice Â£20, I find it baffling that so many MPs would suddenly change their mind on exactly the same proposal purely down to the fact that the vote is held a week or so later.
		
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I am no defender of the deal, I am merely saying Bercow is gerrymandering to suit his own agenda.  Some may believe he is only doing his job which is true, but make no mistake he is not doing it to uphold parliamentary values.


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## Foxholer (Mar 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...I am merely saying Bercow is gerrymandering to suit his own agenda.  Some may believe he is only doing his job which is true, but make no mistake he is not doing it to uphold parliamentary values.
		
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There's only one word that describes my opinion of the above - Twaddle!

It's precisely to 'uphold parliamentary values' that he's been asked - and made, imo, the correct ruling!


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			You mean like he was accused of doing in January when he ignored legal advice and precedent to allow votes on amendments to a government motion and afterwards said "if we only went by precedent, manifestly nothing would ever change"?
		
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The man only uses procedures that suit his agenda unfortunately. Shame that some seem to want to ignore that fact.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Hang on! Who are you talking about? I was talking about the EU (and their 'team'). You seem to be talking about Bercow and his (quite legitimate imo) rulng.And it's not 'law' as such, but the UK 'constitution' as much as there is one from established principles.
		
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My first quote was about the Scottish guy. The second was about Bercow. 
ðŸ‘


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2019)

Be interesting to see if he uses the same ruling when they come back to change the date to leave. Quids in that someone will say that there is no fundamental change as the deal is still about leaving.


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## drdel (Mar 19, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The man only uses procedures that suit his agenda unfortunately. Shame that some seem to want to ignore that fact.
		
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This is the same Bercow who drives a car with an anti-Brexit sticker -his defence was its his wife's car - someone in his position would surely realise the impact of such a juvenile and deliberate action. Its either arrogance and stupidity but whichever it is, it is hardly the prudent action of a senior Parliamentarian whose 'unbiased' judgement we are supposed to accept unchallenged!!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Be interesting to see if he uses the same ruling when they come back to change the date to leave. Quids in that someone will say that there is no fundamental change as the deal is still about leaving.
		
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He's made it pretty clear that whatever comes back needs 'substantial' changes, be it second referendums, meaningful votes etc etc.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			You mean like he was accused of doing in January when he ignored legal advice and precedent to allow votes on amendments to a government motion and afterwards said "if we only went by precedent, manifestly nothing would ever change"?
		
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And he should have been pilloried for doing that.  From memory it was something to do with restricting TMay from just running the clock down and excluding parliament from having any meaningful votes for a long while. So again I suspect eh saw it as him trying to forward the interests of parliament over the executive trying to push things through. It's a common theme of his, when Labour is in power no doubt it is seen as a good thing by some people and and when the tories are it is not.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2019)

I think if Labour get into power they would love to see Bercow remain as speaker. During his political career it was thought that he was going to defect and follow his wife into the Labour Party.

Like many in Parliament he has managed to steer clear of any long term proper work.


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## Foxholer (Mar 19, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			No he said we should not of had the second vote when it had been changed. The vote that has been stopped is correct. Nothing has been changed. As much as i voted Brexit. The law is the law. Stopping the vote is correct.
		
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From what I understand, his point was that nothing *significant* had been changed. And that's the way Bercow (as Mr Speaker) has ruled.

So (in spite of him being Scottish!?) he was correct!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			This is the same Bercow who drives a car with an anti-Brexit sticker -his defence was its his wife's car - someone in his position would surely realise the impact of such a juvenile and deliberate action. Its either arrogance and stupidity but whichever it is, it is hardly the prudent action of a senior Parliamentarian whose 'unbiased' judgement we are supposed to accept unchallenged!!
		
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Give over, its a sticker on his wife's car for goodness sake, stop being so precious.
It is not a deliberate massive great porky pie on the side of a bus.

Bercow is doing a good job IMO, it is the Tory party who are acting in a juvenile, arrogant, stupid and improper manner with their bribes, lies and bullying.


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## robinthehood (Mar 19, 2019)

You'd think bercow had single handedly cancelled brexit! The JRM crew had 2 votes and turned it down! no one but themselves to blame


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## Dando (Mar 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Give over, its a sticker on his wife's car for goodness sake, stop being so precious.
It is not a deliberate massive great porky pie on the side of a bus.

Bercow is doing a good job IMO, it is the Tory party who are acting in a juvenile, arrogant, stupid and improper manner with there bribes, lies and bullying.
		
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Give over and stop being precious, it was just a sticker on the side of a bus.


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## IanM (Mar 19, 2019)

An excellent exercise in getting millions of people talking about something other than the very thing they should be! 

And dont confuse the process with the end state.  The former is a shambles the latter would be fine!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There's only one word that describes my opinion of the above - Twaddle!

It's precisely to 'uphold parliamentary values' that he's been asked - and made, imo, the correct ruling!
		
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I dont give a hoot what your opinion is due to being generally nit picking balderdash and extensive googling to score points on other peoples posts. Maybe you could try to add something yourself rather than being a keyboard parasite.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Be interesting to see if he uses the same ruling when they come back to change the date to leave. Quids in that someone will say that there is no fundamental change as the deal is still about leaving.
		
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Also if there is a call for a second referendum as we have already had one.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2019)

Has anything useful been posted over the last day ? Thought something useful about the step Bercow made would have been posted to help those that donâ€™t understand

But seems itâ€™s still the same

As each day goes by people are getting more and more sick of the whole process and I think people have had enough - it appears the speaker envoked a rule that meant a third vote for the same thing couldnâ€™t be made ? And now it appears he has ruined Brexit ? Done it for his own personal gain plus a whole truck load of insults including reporters hounding him in the street ! And now itâ€™s all because of a sticker in his wifeâ€™s car ?! FFS I thought people on here were supposed to be intelligent mature sensible people

I didnâ€™t think this process could get more embarrassing for our country - itâ€™s getting real nasty from a very small bunch of hard line brexiteers right now and I donâ€™t think they realise imo that they are damaging the whole process more than anything

Right now I just want the whole thing to be over - donâ€™t care in what way because Iâ€™ll find a way to get through but Christ if this does go really badly for the country - there is only one bunch i will point my finger of blame at


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2019)

Beginning to look like a two year delay , can't see this fuddle being sorted by May by May


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## Tashyboy (Mar 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			From what I understand, his point was that nothing *significant* had been changed. And that's the way Bercow (as Mr Speaker) has ruled.

So (in spite of him being Scottish!?) he was correct!
		
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When I watched the QT the other night, the Scotish MP (don't know his name ) mentioned that the government should not of had a second vote on the " deal".  As Bercow has pointed out, you cannot keep coming back with the same deal. But they should of had a second vote as they supposedly, and I say supposedly because the new " deal " was open to interpretation whether anything had really changed. TM went to the EU and there was supposed changes. The second deal was also rejected. However, nothing has changed now TM wants a third vote. That is why Bercow has put a stop on the third vote now. If nothing ( significant) had changed on the second vote. Bercow could of stopped that.
That grips my poo is that surely to God TM knew that Bercow could do what he did. Especially with his recent rulings. So it leads me to one of two trains of thought.
1, she really is as thick as pig shit.
2, she knew about the ruling, and knew the third vote could be stopped, which begs the question. Why?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I would suggest he should have allowed the vote on the basis it may pass and bring an end to this matter dragging on.  I suspect that he is blocking it not as a mater of procedure but as a way to frustrate Brexit and hopefully kill it off.
		
Click to expand...

Why?  This deal is apparently a crock of  that leaves us worse off than if we remained in, why would we want it to go through?  If we are going to stay then cancel it and stay properly, if we are going to go then go on the 29th, but anything but the Theresa May Hokey Cokey with one foot in, one foot out and Brussels shaking us all about despite having supposedly left.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 19, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I imagine that's what the Sun, Express, Mail etc want people to think based on their headlines today.

Imagine the fuss there would be if he ignored constitutional precedent to let the house vote on a subject with no substantial changes where *they have previously rejected it with the first and 4th largest defeats ever in history for a government motion. On the off chance it may get through now.*

As all golfers should know, rules are rules and are not there to be ignored now and then just because the PM has decided that attrition and fear of the alternative is the only desperate tactic she has left. He's there to stick up for parliament as a whole, not bail out any current government, no matter how incompetent they are.
		
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How corrupt would people consider the House to be if that actually came to pass; what would it have taken to change so many minds...?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 19, 2019)

Apparently the issues and uncertainties of the past two years are causing the country to go down the pan.  The solution that our Lords and masters are apparently looking to in order to resolve the issues is... a further two year delay.    You couldn't make this  up.

Billy Connolly's dangerous dogs skit summed up this bunch of wasters perfectly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Apparently the issues and uncertainties of the past two years are causing the country to go down the pan.  The solution that our Lords and masters are apparently looking to in order to resolve the issues is... a further two year delay.   You couldn't make this  up.

Billy Connolly's dangerous dogs skit summed up this bunch of wasters perfectly. 

Click to expand...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47627744

So we might have to put up with this embarrassing mess for a further two years ?!?

If they canâ€™t sort it out now then just cancel it and go back to the drawing board - these people are messing with the lives of everyone in the country


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## ger147 (Mar 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Apparently the issues and uncertainties of the past two years are causing the country to go down the pan.  The solution that our Lords and masters are apparently looking to in order to resolve the issues is... a further two year delay.    You couldn't make this  up.

Billy Connolly's dangerous dogs skit summed up this bunch of wasters perfectly. 

Click to expand...

Yep, the Big Yin nailed it all those years ago...


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## Fade and Die (Mar 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Give over, its a sticker on his wife's car for goodness sake, stop being so precious.
It is not a deliberate massive great porky pie on the side of a bus.

Bercow is doing a good job IMO, it is the Tory party who are acting in a juvenile, arrogant, stupid and improper manner with their bribes, lies and bullying.
		
Click to expand...


Whilst I agree with Bercowâ€™s decision to stop May from keep asking the same question on her turd of a deal his judgment in driving his wifeâ€™s car with the sticker in the back was crass... Imagine if premier league referee Martin Atkinson had a sticker in the back of his wifeâ€™s car (that he used to drive to matches) that had an Everton fan urinating on a Liverpool shirt. Do you think that would be acceptable?
#thatspoor


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So (in spite of him being Scottish!?) he was correct!
		
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When did that happen. His old man was a taxi driver in London and his first school was in London .


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## drdel (Mar 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47627744

So we might have to put up with this embarrassing mess for a further two years ?!?

If they canâ€™t sort it out now then just cancel it and go back to the drawing board - these people are messing with the lives of everyone in the country
		
Click to expand...

But don't forget the EU has changed: the Southern members, led by France are requiring more financial aid to support unsustainable levels of debt and poor economic strategies. Investment boss Holger Schmitz, CEO of Schmitz & Partner AG, is suggesting that Germany is on the hook as the EU's cash cow and, to avoid being dragged down, it should extract itself from the Euro to regain control of its currency exchange. The UK inside the EU would join Germany in being soaked for cash by the 'takers' that Herr Schmitz fears.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 19, 2019)

I've always liked Mr. Daltrey's down to earth views... 

https://www.nme.com/news/music/the-...-we-didnt-tour-europe-before-the-f-eu-2462954


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 19, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Yep, the Big Yin nailed it all those years ago...
		
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Tried to find it on YouTube to share, it was an absolute classic, but no joy.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			How corrupt would people consider the House to be if that actually came to pass;* what would it have taken to change so many minds...*?
		
Click to expand...

Either fear and/or bribery basically.  



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105898850777206785  I bet you were love, I bet you were......


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2019)

And this was literally her next tweet, any connection to the previous one is purely coincidental....  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1107271661282299905


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 19, 2019)

You really couldnâ€™t make it up!

Absolute disgrace of a Government!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			to one of two trains of thought.
1, she really is as thick as pig shit.
2, she knew about the ruling, and knew the third vote could be stopped, which begs the question. Why?
		
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!] Yes
2] She does not listen to anyone except herself. She was the same at the Home Office
Some sort of personality disorder that probably has an 'ism' at the end of it.


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## Foxholer (Mar 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			When did that happen. His old man was a taxi driver in London and his first school was in London .
		
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Who are you talking about?

I was refering to the guy Tashyboy mentioned - '..the Scottish guy on QT last week...'.


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## Foxholer (Mar 20, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			When I watched the QT the other night, the Scotish MP (don't know his name ) mentioned that the government should not of had a second vote on the " deal".  As Bercow has pointed out, you cannot keep coming back with the same deal. But they should of had a second vote as they supposedly, and I say supposedly because the new " deal " was open to interpretation whether anything had really changed. TM went to the EU and there was supposed changes. The second deal was also rejected. However, nothing has changed now TM wants a third vote. That is why Bercow has put a stop on the third vote now. If nothing ( significant) had changed on the second vote. Bercow could of stopped that.
That grips my poo is that surely to God TM knew that Bercow could do what he did. Especially with his recent rulings. So it leads me to one of two trains of thought.
1, she really is as thick as pig shit.
2, she knew about the ruling, and knew the third vote could be stopped, which begs the question. Why?
		
Click to expand...

I believe the 'precedent'/issue had only been questioned after the 2nd Vote. From memory, Bercow had to go and look it up, so probably wasn't aware of the ruling.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I believe the 'precedent'/issue had only been questioned after the 2nd Vote. From memory, Bercow had to go and look it up, so probably wasn't aware of the ruling.
		
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One of the Labour MP's, Chris Bryant I think, had started to raise it as an issue. Bercow may not have known about it but Bryant, I think, firmly dropped it in the mix so he had to look at it.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One of the Labour MP's, Chris Bryant I think, had started to raise it as an issue. Bercow may not have known about it but Bryant, I think, firmly dropped it in the mix so he had to look at it.
		
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And there's no chance of a conspiracy,  these are politicians we are talking about.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And there's no chance of a conspiracy,  these are politicians we are talking about.
		
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Project Fear  Time for the tinfoil hat.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Project Fear  Time for the tinfoil hat. 

Click to expand...

'Fear'  what's that got to do with it.  Are you feeling a little confused ðŸ™„


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Project Fear  Time for the tinfoil hat. 

Click to expand...

Yes if it wasn't for the 'Enemies of the People'/the Saboteurs/Bercow/the EU/the Political Elite/Soros/Gina Miller and Gina G questioning the well thought out plans to leave we would be home and dry by now.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108149985948983296


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## Foxholer (Mar 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And there's no chance of a conspiracy,  these are politicians we are talking about.
		
Click to expand...

In this case, I very much doubt it! The manner in which the subject was raised seems  to suggest there was no 'foul play' involved. 

Here's a bit more info anyway...https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/18/what-has-john-bercow-done-now


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 20, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes if it wasn't for the 'Enemies of the People'/the Saboteurs/Bercow/the EU/the Political Elite/Soros/Gina Miller and Gina G questioning the well thought out plans to leave we would be home and dry by now.
		
Click to expand...

Damn those do gooders!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			In this case, I very much doubt it! The manner in which the subject was raised seems  to suggest there was no 'foul play' involved.

Here's a bit more info anyway...https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/18/what-has-john-bercow-done-now

Click to expand...

Believe what you like, but thatâ€™s not what the voices in the Cornflake boxes are saying.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Damn those do gooders! 

Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Believe what you like, but thatâ€™s not what the voices in the Cornflake boxes are saying. 

Click to expand...

Not surprising! The Brexit debacle seems to have increased the mistrust 'normal folk' have of politicians. FWIW, there are some - on each side of the argument - for whom my 'respect' has increased


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Not surprising! The Brexit debacle seems to have increased the mistrust 'normal folk' have of politicians. FWIW, there are some - on each side of the argument - for whom my 'respect' has increased
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately Iâ€™ve gone the opposite way, I am disillushioned more than ever with politicians on all sides, even worse that some things the SNP have stated has seen me nod my head in agreement.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately Iâ€™ve gone the opposite way, I am disillushioned more than ever with politicians on all sides, even worse that some things the SNP have stated has seen me nod my head in agreement. 

Click to expand...

Don't forget the cornflake box voices.


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## drdel (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately Iâ€™ve gone the opposite way, I am disillushioned more than ever with politicians on all sides, even worse that some things the SNP have stated has seen me nod my head in agreement. 

Click to expand...

Its the whisky talking - have another and you'll feel better !!


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## drdel (Mar 20, 2019)

Its reported that Jeremy Corbyn is going to see Barnier ahead of the EU summit and the PM's address.  I wonder if he'll tell Barnier the position of himself and/or the Labour Party. He's managed to avoid answering the question so far.

The farce continues but the audience has left the theatre.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 20, 2019)

BREAKING: John Bercow declares there is a parliamentary precedent from 1622 enabling him to quietly push a malfunctioning Prime Minister in the Thames if he feels like it.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its reported that Jeremy Corbyn is going to see Barnier ahead of the EU summit and the PM's address.  I wonder if he'll tell Barnier the position of himself and/or the Labour Party. He's managed to avoid answering the question so far.

The farce continues but the audience has left the theatre.
		
Click to expand...

You can imagine how Corbyn's  conversation will go with Barnier.

Don't you love farce?
My fault, I fear.
I thought that you'd want what I want...
Sorry, my dear!
But where are the clowns
Send in the clowns
Don't bother, they're here


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## User62651 (Mar 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its reported that Jeremy Corbyn is going to see Barnier ahead of the EU summit and the PM's address.  I wonder if he'll tell Barnier the position of himself and/or the Labour Party. He's managed to avoid answering the question so far.
		
Click to expand...

Why is Labour's flexibility to seek a sensible Brexit compromise solution any worse than May's intransigent inflexible 'head in sand' my way or no way, deny reality position? 

Just heard France likely to say no to Art50 extension (because it's pointless) so looks like we're out 'deal-less' next week thanks mainly to May's pig-headedness.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			BREAKING: John Bercow declares there is a parliamentary precedent from 1622 enabling him to quietly push a malfunctioning Prime Minister in the Thames if he feels like it.
		
Click to expand...

But only on the condition he gives Guy Fawkes another go.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Why is Labour's flexibility to seek a sensible Brexit compromise solution any worse than May's intransigent inflexible 'head in sand' my way or no way, deny reality position?

Just heard France likely to say no to Art50 extension (because it's pointless) so looks like we're out 'deal-less' next week thanks mainly to May's pig-headedness.
		
Click to expand...

Lets wait and see.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 20, 2019)

â€œA short extension will be possible conditional on a positive vote in House of Commonsâ€ says @*eucopresident*. So Brexit delay requires MPs to back PMâ€™s deal at third attempt. Tusk implies he expects a no-deal Brexit.


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## Foxholer (Mar 20, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Why is Labour's flexibility to seek a sensible Brexit compromise solution any worse than May's intransigent inflexible 'head in sand' my way or no way, deny reality position?
...
		
Click to expand...

Because he has no ability to achieve anything! Even if he could agree anything different to what May's team was able to achieve.

It's all a pointless (perhaps purely oint-scoring!) waste! But that's what Opposition, and particularly their leaders, do! If, however he came back resolved to support May's deal (after having a 'realism- epiphany!) then he might be able to sway/command Labour MPs to back May for the sake of the country! Ad especially he can extract some sort of additional 'concession' from Tusk et al that he can pronounce was his doing - and that would also mean the 'deal' is sufficiently changed to allow its return for a vote in The Commons.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 20, 2019)

Opposition leaders meeting PM at about 6.15, Key group of Brexiteers seeing PM at 7pm, then strong rumours of statement from PM herself at about 8pm - last bit is still not confirmed


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## spongebob59 (Mar 20, 2019)

What a shambles.
All along they've been saying its a waiting game and the EU would crumble at the last minute.
Lets see how thats worked out.


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## Big Jim (Mar 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Opposition leaders meeting PM at about 6.15, Key group of Brexiteers seeing PM at 7pm, then strong rumours of statement from PM herself at about 8pm - last bit is still not confirmed
		
Click to expand...

May to declare they have removed the staples form the paper on her "deal" and replaced then with comb bind, so her "deal"l has changed and putting through again


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## drdel (Mar 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But only on the condition he gives Guy Fawkes another go.
		
Click to expand...

You can't go for the same thing twice.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 20, 2019)

Anywhere else in Europe the 'people' would be, by now, out on the streets availing their leaders of their utter contempt/disbelief of their incompetence...

The fact we aren't highlights we haven't ever really got the hang of being 'European'...


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## drdel (Mar 20, 2019)

Tusk will recommend an extension ONLY if MPs have agreed. 

Might be short meeting in Brussels tomorrow!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			You can't go for the same thing twice.
		
Click to expand...

Use dynamite this time thus a significant material change  ðŸ˜‰


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## spongebob59 (Mar 20, 2019)

*The EU will only agree to a short delay to Brexit if MPs approve the current withdrawal agreement next week, Theresa May has been told. *

Just shows what a shit deal  it must be for us and a great one for them


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			What a shambles.
All along they've been saying its a waiting game and the EU would crumble at the last minute.
Lets see how thats worked out.
		
Click to expand...

If Parliament had stood together there could well have been room for a last minute break,through . We have been negotiating in the medium of a one armed paper hanger.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If Parliament had stood together there could well have been room for a last minute break,through . We have been negotiating in the medium of a one armed paper hanger.
		
Click to expand...

If Parliament had been involved in the negotiations from day 1 maybe we wouldnâ€™t be in this mess!
Still only 1 person and Party to blame!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2019)

They will find a way to have a 3rd meaningful vote, the deal will go through, May will then resign and either Bojo or Raab C Noclue will become PM. God help us.  But on the plus side my nominated charity will be Â£20 better off.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If Parliament had been involved in the negotiations from day 1 maybe we wouldnâ€™t be in this mess!
Still only 1 person and Party to blame!
		
Click to expand...

Now youve got to be joking ðŸ˜‚
This has descended into a complete farce since every man and his dog in parliament have been squabbling and pulling in oposite directions. How could any company run a business where instead of the management making decisions every employe decides on business policy.  What we have just experienced is anarchy, the lunatics are running the asylum.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			They will find a way to have a 3rd meaningful vote, the deal will go through, May will then resign and either Bojo or Raab C Noclue will become PM. God help us.  But on the plus side my nominated charity will be Â£20 better off.
		
Click to expand...

I think Liddington is a runner for the job.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Now youve got to be joking ðŸ˜‚
This has descended into a complete farce since every man and his dog in parliament have been squabbling and pulling in oposite directions. How could any company run a business where instead of the management making decisions every employee has a say on business decisions.  What we have just experienced is anarchy, the lunatics are running the asylum.
		
Click to expand...

She refused to let anyone else get involved with negotiations, she never briefed or discussed the deal with other party leaders prior to agreeing it with the EU.
She then gets slaughtered in the vote (twice) and now wants to meet and discuss with them.
Surely sheâ€™d of been better squabbling in private and getting some sort of idea were she stood before negotiations rather than the last 3 month mess sheâ€™s created.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If Parliament had stood together there could well have been room for a last minute break,through . We have been negotiating in the medium of a one armed paper hanger.
		
Click to expand...

if the Tories would have stood together we would not have needed this last minute desperation.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108418852684288000


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			She refused to let anyone else get involved with negotiations, she never briefed or discussed the deal with other party leaders prior to agreeing it with the EU.
She then gets slaughtered in the vote (twice) and now wants to meet and discuss with them.
Surely sheâ€™d of been better squabbling in private and getting some sort of idea were she stood before negotiations rather than the last 3 month mess sheâ€™s created.
		
Click to expand...

There would never be a snowballs chance in hell of Labour, SNP or LibDems working WITH her.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There would never be a snowballs chance in hell of Labour, SNP or LibDems working WITH her.
		
Click to expand...

Rubbish, she hasnâ€™t even got your party working WITH her and  there are many cross party committees working together in Parliament. This issue is bigger than any one party.
You canâ€™t have total control of a situation then blame everyone else when the opposition snd your own party turn against you.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think Liddington is a runner for the job.
		
Click to expand...

He could walk past me in the street and I would not have a clue who he is. So probably a great charismatic choice to lead the UK in this new EU free world full of exciting trading opportunities/post apocalyptic wasteland where we can only trade with Lichtenstein and Iceland (delete as appropriate).  He's at 28 to 1 with some bookies so pile in there and make a killing.  https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-prime-minister


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## Hobbit (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Rubbish, she hasnâ€™t even got your party working WITH her and  there are many cross party committees working together in Parliament. This issue is bigger than any one party.
You canâ€™t have total control of a situation then blame everyone else when the opposition snd your own party turn against you.
		
Click to expand...

She's never had control of it. Her deal is a BRINO deal, and it still hasn't got through.

You've only got to read of the meeting between the other parties yesterday to see there isn't anything like a consensus in the other parties either.

And on a wider note, the weakest, most inept governments have been those that are either minority governments or coalitions. The only way the Tories would have got any deal through is with a massive majority in parliament that would have made their own detractors pointless. 

Do you really honestly think this up-cock is solely down to the Tories? You're coming across as a pin a rosette on any other donkey and you'd still say the Tories are evil.


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## Foxholer (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:





SocketRocket said:



			Now youve got to be joking ðŸ˜‚
This has descended into a complete farce since every man and his dog in parliament have been squabbling and pulling in oposite directions. How could any company run a business where instead of the management making decisions every employe decides on business policy.  What we have just experienced is anarchy, the lunatics are running the asylum.
		
Click to expand...

She refused to let anyone else get involved with negotiations, she never briefed or discussed the deal with other party leaders prior to agreeing it with the EU.
She then gets slaughtered in the vote (twice) and now wants to meet and discuss with them.
Surely sheâ€™d of been better squabbling in private and getting some sort of idea were she stood before negotiations rather than the last 3 month mess sheâ€™s created.
		
Click to expand...

Her approach probably worked at least as well as any other would have imo.

It was ALWAYS going to come down to this situation.

The fact thet May is going to be 'blamed' for the shambles that is 650 members with varying opiniuons on what is really best for the country, let alone the Governm,ent vs Opposition issue. She'll get this through, run the country, taking the blame for every real or perceived Brexit related issue - like bus fares going up or the lack of action on pot-holes - then resign with a Damehood and retire to the Lords. Which, btw, has been noticeable subdued about the entire process! It clarly demonstrates, to me, that those wise men and women know when to keep a low profile!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			if the Tories would have stood together we would not have needed this last minute desperation.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108418852684288000

Click to expand...

Thats correct, they are as bad as the rest.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			She's never had control of it. Her deal is a BRINO deal, and it still hasn't got through.

You've only got to read of the meeting between the other parties yesterday to see there isn't anything like a consensus in the other parties either.

And on a wider note, the weakest, most inept governments have been those that are either minority governments or coalitions. The only way the Tories would have got any deal through is with a massive majority in parliament that would have made their own detractors pointless.

Do you really honestly think this up-cock is solely down to the Tories? You're coming across as a pin a rosette on any other donkey and you'd still say the Tories are evil.
		
Click to expand...

No Brian, I voted to leave and put my faith in the government.
She obviously expected her deal to go through, she must of known if her own party was likely to back her or not.
For some people to now expect opposition mpâ€™s to back her or take responsibility is crazy.
Surely they didnâ€™t keep negotiating with just a few people in the know!
To bring it to Parliament with such a short time frame for anything to go wrong was daft.
I firmly believe I woukd be of the same opinion regardless of party.
Itâ€™s embarrassing the way this playing out.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Her approach probably worked at least as well as any other would have imo.

It was ALWAYS going to come down to this situation.

The fact thet May is going to be 'blamed' for the shambles that is 650 members with varying opiniuons on what is really best for the country, let alone the Governm,ent vs Opposition issue. She'll get this through, run the country, taking the blame for every real or perceived Brexit related issue - like bus fares going up or the lack of action on pot-holes - then resign with a Damehood and retire to the Lords. Which, btw, has been noticeable subdued about the entire process! It clarly demonstrates, to me, that those wise men and women know when to keep a low profile!
		
Click to expand...

Who gets the blame for the financial crisis when Labour was in control?
That responsibility goes with the job.
The whole Brexit situation has been badly handled since day 1 and Iâ€™d suggest prior to a few months ago very few of the 650 had anything to do with Brexit.
If you could see it was always going to  come down to this situation how come no one in the Government could?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Rubbish, she hasnâ€™t even got your party working WITH her and  there are many cross party committees working together in Parliament. This issue is bigger than any one party.
You canâ€™t have total control of a situation then blame everyone else when the opposition snd your own party turn against you.
		
Click to expand...

I am not protecting the conservatives, they are just as  responsible. My point was in reply to your rather naive suggestion that she should have worked with other parties.  If you believe she could have done that without dismissing the referendum result then you are guilty of your own accusation.  Talking rubbish.


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## Hobbit (Mar 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No Brian, I voted to leave and put my faith in the government.
She obviously expected her deal to go through, she must of known if her own party was likely to back her or not.
For some people to now expect opposition mpâ€™s to back her or take responsibility is crazy.
Surely they didnâ€™t keep negotiating with just a few people in the know!
To bring it to Parliament with such a short time frame for anything to go wrong was daft.
I firmly believe I woukd be of the same opinion regardless of party.
Itâ€™s embarrassing the way this playing out.
		
Click to expand...

I believe she knew her deal wouldn't fly but it was all that the EU would give her. She has run the clock down deliberately, giving the MP's the bitter choice of her deal or no deal, both of which are very poor.

I hope its exit no deal. As painful as it will be, it will also be horrendously painful for the EU, and see them negotiating in good faith, which they haven't to date. Hell, Murcia region alone is exporting over Â£10m worth of fruit and veg a week to the UK. Do you think those farmers can take a hit on a weekly basis? They aren't big business like VW. Same goes for the Spanish fishing fleet up on the north coast - you tell me how many rich fishermen there are. It would be devastating to many many small businesses across the EU, just as it will to the UK. I can't see the (tottering) EU economy tolerating that.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			He could walk past me in the street and I would not have a clue who he is. So probably a great charismatic choice to lead the UK in this new EU free world full of exciting trading opportunities/post apocalyptic wasteland where we can only trade with Lichtenstein and Iceland (delete as appropriate).  He's at 28 to 1 with some bookies so pile in there and make a killing.  https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-prime-minister

Click to expand...

Like you I hadn't noticed him before. I watched him last week being grilled by the Brexit select committee and was very impressed with the clarity and way he articulated his answers.


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## drdel (Mar 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Her approach probably worked at least as well as any other would have imo.

It was ALWAYS going to come down to this situation.

The fact thet May is going to be 'blamed' for the shambles that is 650 members with varying opiniuons on what is really best for the country, let alone the Governm,ent vs Opposition issue. She'll get this through, run the country, taking the blame for every real or perceived Brexit related issue - like bus fares going up or the lack of action on pot-holes - then resign with a Damehood and retire to the Lords. Which, btw, has been noticeable subdued about the entire process! It clarly demonstrates, to me, that those wise men and women know when to keep a low profile!
		
Click to expand...

Had Gina Miiller not decided to play games the Executive would have had the power to negotiate and the backstabbing and grandstanding by everyone and their uncle would not have got traction


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## Mudball (Mar 20, 2019)

Looks like Churchill is going to address the nation about the grave times we are in and how we will fight them till we get the same deal signed.  Itâ€™s at 8:15 tonight.


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## Mudball (Mar 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Had Gina Miiller not decided to play games the Executive would have had the power to negotiate and the backstabbing and grandstanding by everyone and their uncle would not have got traction
		
Click to expand...

Agree.. without her we would have already signed up to whatever shite the ERG blackmailed Maybot to sign up to..


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes if it wasn't for the 'Enemies of the People'/the Saboteurs/Bercow/the EU/the Political Elite/Soros/Gina Miller and Gina G questioning the well thought out plans to leave we would be home and dry by now.
		
Click to expand...

Oi matey, you forgot those pesky Scotch people in that list.


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## drdel (Mar 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oi matey, you forgot those pesky Scotch people in that list.
		
Click to expand...

Is that the  bits of Scotland that want to be a minute part of 27 nations rather than a nation among 4 others?


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## Old Skier (Mar 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Is that the  bits of Scotland that want to be a minute part of 27 nations rather than a nation among 4 others?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure the EU could take on anyone who wouldn't be a nett contributor the way things are going.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 20, 2019)

Adult  politics


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108448502437298176


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## drdel (Mar 20, 2019)

So Jeremy Corbyn has walked out of the meeting with the PM and other opposition groups because Umanna was there - I guess he can still stay quiet nd not declare a position on Brexit to anyone for another day or two.

Another demonstration of imaturity,  if another was needed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Is that the  bits of Scotland that want to be a minute part of 27 nations rather than a nation among 4 others?
		
Click to expand...

Too true, 66% of bits at the moâ€¦....at least the EU supports it's equal members like Ireland.
Absolutely zilch equality and support coming towards Scotland from this Tory UK 'BetterTogether' Government.
That of course is a Tory government where policy seems to be controlled  by the DUP.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Looks like Churchill is going to address the nation about the grave times we are in and how we will fight them till we get the same deal signed.  Itâ€™s at 8:15 tonight.
		
Click to expand...


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## drdel (Mar 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Too true, 66% of bits at the moâ€¦....at least the EU supports it's equal members like Ireland.
Absolutely zilch equality and support coming towards Scotland from this Tory UK 'BetterTogether' Government
		
Click to expand...

Then get Queen Nicola to sort it you have a Government that she runs.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Too true, 66% of bits at the moâ€¦....at least the EU supports it's equal members like Ireland.
Absolutely zilch equality and support coming towards Scotland from this Tory UK 'BetterTogether' Government
		
Click to expand...

Does a small country like Scotland expect to get a majority say in the UK or EU come to that. Dream on Doon.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			â€œA short extension will be possible conditional on a positive vote in House of Commonsâ€ says @*eucopresident*. So Brexit delay requires MPs to back PMâ€™s deal at third attempt. Tusk implies he expects a no-deal Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

If we agree that crock of  then we wonâ€™t need the extension will we. EU are trying to blackmail us into signing up to Mayâ€™s bad deal and if the House canâ€™t see that then they are even more inept than anyone ever thought, which is one hell of an indictment.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Then get Queen Nicola to sort it you have a Government that she runs.
		
Click to expand...

Jings, you really are more than a bit out of touch with 'UK' politics.

Getting some support from the Oxford Dictionary though.
I wonder how many of those we can get passed the Mods.

https://stv.tv/news/scotland/1436442-scots-black-affronted-as-weegie-word-bawbag-in-dictionary/


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## spongebob59 (Mar 20, 2019)

Not me BTW

Having spoken to several of those present at meeting with PM, hereâ€™s what Iâ€™ve been told happened; - PM restated the case for her deal - Didnâ€™t entertain alternatives seriously - Corbyn didnâ€™t want to take part with Independent Group


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## Mudball (Mar 20, 2019)

Trust the French.. looks like Macron wants to veto extension.. 

.. MPs now boxed themselves into a corner (and Jezza does not want to be in that corner )


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 20, 2019)

Well that was a waste of time! Complete hypocrite! Poor me.


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## Mudball (Mar 20, 2019)

WTF was that â€˜addressâ€™ all about? How many times did she rehearse that esp the â€˜Finish, donâ€™t say thank you.. turn and walk away nowâ€™ .. 

Nothing new in it except blame everyone else


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## Fade and Die (Mar 20, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Trust the French.. looks like Macron wants to veto extension..

.. MPs now boxed themselves into a corner (and Jezza does not want to be in that corner )
		
Click to expand...


Fingers crossed they just kick us out. ðŸ¤žðŸ»


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## Leftie (Mar 20, 2019)

Nothing changes.  France never did want us  http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/27/newsid_4187000/4187714.stm


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## Tashyboy (Mar 20, 2019)

I think Theresa May is the Tories version of Labours Diane Abbott.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I think Theresa May is the Tories version of Labours Diane Abbott.
		
Click to expand...

And why do you think that Tash?


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Who gets the blame for the financial crisis when Labour was in control?
That responsibility goes with the job.
...
		
Click to expand...

Labour certainly did, which was just as wrong - except, perhaps, for a tiny area that they _were_ actually responsible for. But that's how politics and the public work. 


pauldj42 said:



			...
The whole Brexit situation has been badly handled since day 1 and Iâ€™d suggest prior to a few months ago very few of the 650 had anything to do with Brexit....
		
Click to expand...

It was totally forsee-able that the EU could/would dig its heels in and force the problems it has. This scenario was even documented! But it was never considered relevant by those who simply wanted (or were convinced) to leave! It may have been handled 'badly', but that was a deliberate strategy by the EU! Remember those, me amongst them, who declared that the EU would deliberately 'play hard-ball' in order to discourage others from going the same way?


pauldj42 said:



			...
If you could see it was always going to  come down to this situation how come no one in the Government could?
		
Click to expand...

I'm certain they could - and did! And decided that this was the 'least bad' way!

As for actually assigning blame in the first place...Try blaming those, particularly MPs, who actually pushed to Leave, then ran away and hid as soon as it was voted in! I believe the vast majority of MPs (all parties) were in favour of Remain. It was only because of growing support to Tories were moving to (or towards) UKIP that Cameron decided he had to stop all the rumblings.

 I have little doubt that those same MPs will return to being noisy again once May stands down - as I'm equally certain that she will do at a 'convenient' point once Brexit happens. It was, and was always going to be, a poisoned chalice! And perhaps you should consider looking to yourself if you really want to assign blame for the difficulties that have been encountered. The whole exercise simply reinforces my cynicism of (particularly UK) political attitudes - including the press and 'the electorate'!


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			Had Gina Miiller not decided to play games the Executive would have had the power to negotiate and the backstabbing and grandstanding by everyone and their uncle would not have got traction
		
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Perhaps. But Millar 'called foul' about the rules for one side in the game. That was never going to stop the EU from blockading their goal!

And she was (proven to be) absolutely correct to 'call foul' too!


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I think Theresa May is the Tories version of Labours Diane Abbott.
		
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Difference...

Abbott was wrong.

May, although tactics may be missguided, is right. Parliament has frustrated negotiations by playing games and not showing competent diplomacy.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2019)

The word that sprung to mind last night was delusional. She has been bad for a while but last night was TM going over the edge.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The word that sprung to mind last night was delusional. She has been bad for a while but last night was TM going over the edge.
		
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Or maybe she was showing some spine for a change, saying it as she did. We, on here, and a significant majority of the electorate have severely criticised her and Parliament as a whole. Why can't she criticise those that have thwarted the govt?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Or maybe she was showing some spine for a change, saying it as she did. We, on here, and a significant majority of the electorate have severely criticised her and Parliament as a whole. Why can't she criticise those that have thwarted the govt?
		
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It depends how you see what she has done. This has been her ball all along, her rules. She hasn't listened to MPs at any stage even when they were telling her this wont get through. Now she is throwing a huff because the MPs are sticking to their guns, doing what they said they would do. Maybe if she had listened 2yrs ago, 18 months ago, 12 months ago etc. This is her mess and she still refuses to listen and change.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Or maybe she was showing some spine for a change, saying it as she did. We, on here, and a significant majority of the electorate have severely criticised her and Parliament as a whole. Why can't she criticise those that have thwarted the govt?
		
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Bit late for showing some spine now Brian, should have stood up to them months ago or not carried out the referendum result.  Finally finding the testicular fortitude to stand up to her colleagues now that her dog's dinner is the only deal on the table is the last thing we need.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It depends how you see what she has done. This has been her ball all along, her rules. She hasn't listened to MPs at any stage even when they were telling her this wont get through. Now she is throwing a huff because the MPs are sticking to their guns, doing what they said they would do. Maybe if she had listened 2yrs ago, 18 months ago, 12 months ago etc. This is her mess and she still refuses to listen and change.
		
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But listen to what? To Jeremy Corbyn's version? Rees-Mogg's version? Vince Cable's version? Labour's 6 points, that became 5 this week? SNP's "we're not going" version?

She got all the party leaders together this week only for Corbyn to walk out when Chuka turned up. Corbyn then ragged her in PMQ and said he wants to meet her 1-2-1 - so he's dismissing the other parties too. There is no consensus in Parliament. Only the LibDems and the SNP have had a consistent party line right through the last x years.

Personally, I think her version is a Brino deal but it does respect the original vote AND try and find some middle ground for the Remainers. Its half in, half out. Isn't that the compromise Remainers were asking for? And when offered a BRINO they've shown that they don't want compromise.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Bit late for showing some spine now Brian, should have stood up to them months ago or not carried out the referendum result.  Finally finding the testicular fortitude to stand up to her colleagues now that her dog's dinner is the only deal on the table is the last thing we need.
		
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I wish she'd sought cross-party consensus when the Tories failed to gain any majority at the botched election.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It depends how you see what she has done. This has been her ball all along, her rules. She hasn't listened to MPs at any stage even when they were telling her this wont get through. Now she is throwing a huff because the MPs are sticking to their guns, doing what they said they would do. Maybe if she had listened 2yrs ago, 18 months ago, 12 months ago etc. This is her mess and she still refuses to listen and change.
		
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How can anyone listen to what the MPs are saying, they are saying different things and there appears to be no way they will agree on anything.  She is right that this has gone on long enough and I would imagine most of the nation are totally fed up to the back teeth with their self gratification and party games.  IMO there are two logical ways to end this mess, they either accept her deal or we leave next week without a deal, many people (including me) would like a better deal but there isn't one, many would like to change the decision of the referendum but that would destroy the foundation of our democracy and anyone who refutes that are either in denial or unable to accept their vote lost.   There must be some honorable people still in Parliament but I am looking closely and finding it very hard to spot them.    A slow motion car crash unfolding before our eyes and it's absolutely pathetic.


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

Another pointless petition doing the rounds.. aimed to get A50 revoked. Woke up this morning and it was nearly 400k. Had my morning cuppa and breakie and it was nearly 450k!! 

The reason I say it is pointless is that it will get the sterile response from Maybot .. â€˜we will not revoke, we will deliver the Will of 17m, I am on your side... blah blahâ€™

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Labour certainly did, which was just as wrong - except, perhaps, for a tiny area that they _were_ actually responsible for. But that's how politics and the public work.

It was totally forsee-able that the EU could/would dig its heels in and force the problems it has. This scenario was even documented! But it was never considered relevant by those who simply wanted (or were convinced) to leave! It may have been handled 'badly', but that was a deliberate strategy by the EU! Remember those, me amongst them, who declared that the EU would deliberately 'play hard-ball' in order to discourage others from going the same way?

I'm certain they could - and did! And decided that this was the 'least bad' way!

As for actually assigning blame in the first place...Try blaming those, particularly MPs, who actually pushed to Leave, then ran away and hid as soon as it was voted in! I believe the vast majority of MPs (all parties) were in favour of Remain. It was only because of growing support to Tories were moving to (or towards) UKIP that Cameron decided he had to stop all the rumblings.

I have little doubt that those same MPs will return to being noisy again once May stands down - as I'm equally certain that she will do at a 'convenient' point once Brexit happens. It was, and was always going to be, a poisoned chalice! And perhaps you should consider looking to yourself if you really want to assign blame for the difficulties that have been encountered. The whole exercise simply reinforces my cynicism of (particularly UK) political attitudes - including the press and 'the electorate'!
		
Click to expand...

May was the one last night â€œblamingâ€ everyone else, criticising everyone else and then telling us sheâ€™s on our side! Please, she went lower than a snakeâ€™s belly trying to get the public on her side and itâ€™s much too late for that.
Just like Cameron sheâ€™ll stamp her feet and walk off to retirement.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How can anyone listen to what the MPs are saying, they are saying different things and there appears to be no way they will agree on anything.  She is right that this has gone on long enough and I would imagine most of the nation are totally fed up to the back teeth with their self gratification and party games.  IMO there are two logical ways to end this mess, they either accept her deal or we leave next week without a deal, many people (including me) would like a better deal but there isn't one, many would like to change the decision of the referendum but that would destroy the foundation of our democracy and anyone who denies that are either in denial or unable to accept their vote lost.   There must be some honorable people still in Parliament but I am looking closely and finding it very hard to spot them.    A slow motion car crash unfolding before our eyes and it's absolutely pathetic.
		
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You canâ€™t have it both ways! Parliament is exercising itâ€™s democratic rights to ask questions etc and you say theyâ€™re wrong.
And Iâ€™m sorry but saying we should accept this deal because itâ€™s the only one on offer is just as dellusion as TM.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			May was the one last night â€œblamingâ€ everyone else, criticising everyone else and then telling us sheâ€™s on our side! Please, she went lower than a snakeâ€™s belly trying to get the public on her side and itâ€™s much too late for that.
Just like Cameron sheâ€™ll stamp her feet and walk off to retirement.
		
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To be honest, I've only seen the odd clip. I just can't be bothered with the posturing from all sides.

As to her riding off into retirement; I'd rather she was either sacked or resigned now - well, actually after the failed second attempt to get her deal through.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Another pointless petition doing the rounds.. aimed to get A50 revoked. Woke up this morning and it was nearly 400k. Had my morning cuppa and breakie and it was nearly 450k!!

The reason I say it is pointless is that it will get the sterile response from Maybot .. â€˜we will not revoke, we will deliver the Will of 17m, I am on your side... blah blahâ€™

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

Click to expand...

Another pathetic attempt by remainers who cant accept democracy.   Do you actually expect her to take any notice of it.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You canâ€™t have it both ways! Parliament is exercising itâ€™s democratic rights to ask questions etc and you say theyâ€™re wrong.
And Iâ€™m sorry but saying we should accept this deal because itâ€™s the only one on offer is just as dellusion as TM.
		
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Its a tough one. When should questions stop and when should MP's get behind something they just think is the best of a bad job?

I dare say the majority of us have had, at some time or other, either questioned our boss or had our staff question us. Sooner or later we've had to suck it up and get on with what is in front of us.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Or maybe she was showing some spine for a change, saying it as she did. We, on here, and a significant majority of the electorate have severely criticised her and Parliament as a whole. Why can't she criticise those that have thwarted the govt?
		
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Come on Bri, she denied anyone else any involvement from the beginning and now blames everyone else!
Thatâ€™s not leadership!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another pathetic attempt by remainers who cant accept democracy.   Do you actually expect her to take any notice of it.
		
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You keep going on about democracy and criticising parliament! Is it only certain bits of democracy you support.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You canâ€™t have it both ways! Parliament is exercising itâ€™s democratic rights to ask questions etc and you say theyâ€™re wrong.
And Iâ€™m sorry but saying we should accept this deal because itâ€™s the only one on offer is just as dellusion as TM.
		
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And what about your glorious leaders contribution to events.   'Im not joining in if He's there. What a Buffoon!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough one. When should questions stop and when should MP's get behind something they just think is the best of a bad job?

I dare say the majority of us have had, at some time or other, either questioned our boss or had our staff question us. Sooner or later we've had to suck it up and get on with what is in front of us.
		
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Or weâ€™ve had the boss listen and adjust, sheâ€™s not listened from day 1.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And what about your glorious leaders contribution to events.   'Im not joining in if He's there. What a Buffoon!
		
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Quick nothing else to say, letâ€™s deflect!

Why wonâ€™t she have a 1-2-1 with him?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You keep going on about democracy and criticising parliament! Is it only certain bits of democracy you support.
		
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Yes it is, the type that works for the will of the people and enacts their decisions when they decide.  Not some silly Snowflake petition that is just another case of sour grapes, it will get looked at if it has sufficient numbers but then deserves escalating to the bin where it belongs.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Quick nothing else to say, letâ€™s deflect!

Why wonâ€™t she have a 1-2-1 with him?
		
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Because he had his chance and blew it. Why does he think he is so precious that he needs a 1-2-1.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Bri, she denied anyone else any involvement from the beginning and now blames everyone else!
Thatâ€™s not leadership!
		
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I'm surprised David Davis stayed in post as long as he did. I think her version of control, creating a Brexit team led by herself and Olly Robbins, excluding the Dexu team was appalling.

As much as I think she's got it wrong, and I think her deal is appalling, I think she's come up with a good compromise deal for both sides of the argument. Its an awful deal for the UK but it is the compromise people were asking for.



pauldj42 said:



			Quick nothing else to say, letâ€™s deflect!

Why wonâ€™t she have a 1-2-1 with him?
		
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She wants all the leaders there. You can't criticise her for excluding people then say she should have a 1-2-1 with him, excluding others. I think she 100% right to say all of them or none.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Because he had his chance and blew it. Why does he think he is so precious that he needs a 1-2-1.
		
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What chance? Those who attended her mtg last night came out and said it was a waste of time and she offered nothing new.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm surprised David Davis stayed in post as long as he did. I think her version of control, creating a Brexit team led by herself and Olly Robbins, excluding the Dexu team was appalling.

As much as I think she's got it wrong, and I think her deal is appalling, I think she's come up with a good compromise deal for both sides of the argument. Its an awful deal for the UK but it is the compromise people were asking for.



She wants all the leaders there. You can't criticise her for excluding people then say she should have a 1-2-1 with him, excluding others. I think she 100% right to say all of them or none.
		
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Itâ€™s only her opinion itâ€™s a good compromise, you yourself say itâ€™s a awful deal.
We are in this situation because of choices sheâ€™s made and now were at the deadline sheâ€™s throwing her teddy!
Maybe we do need to TELL the EU weâ€™re starting again and by again we mean getting our own house in order before we negotiate.
We are being bullied in to accepting something we donâ€™t want, both by the EU and TM.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 21, 2019)

Am still sure that she will get the deal through through basically saying it's that or no deal. But can't help but wonder what long term damage all these shenanigans will cause to our faith in politics, parliament and our democratically elected politicians, which could have serious long term implications for the governance of this country. I know we all moan about our PMs over the years but in reality we have not really had any real hard line ideological crackpots in charge (well Thatch was close..  )

But ideological crack pots and extremist leaders like chaos and distrust in the mainstream, they like tension and conflict, they thrive on a divided society and encourage fear of mostly imaginary enemies to forwards their own personal ambitions.  And like it or not a lot of people are taken in and it becomes a bit like a cult.  So I pray to god we do not end up going down that avenue.  All of which is ironic as this is all being done in the name of democracy apparently.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What chance? Those who attended her mtg last night came out and said it was a waste of time and she offered nothing new.
		
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Did they offer something new.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			... How could any company run a business where instead of the management making decisions every employe decides on business policy...
		
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Running a business and running a democracy are simply not comparanle!


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## patricks148 (Mar 21, 2019)

lets face it She has put the Tory Party and her grip on power above the good of the country, a bit like the architect of this mess DC, who only called the referendum to appease the far right of the Tory party


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And why do you think that Tash?
		
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Post 7200 says it so much better than I could


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Am still sure that she will get the deal through through basically saying it's that or no deal. But can't help but wonder what long term damage all these shenanigans will cause to our faith in politics, parliament and our democratically elected politicians, which could have serious long term implications for the governance of this country. I know we all moan about our PMs over the years but in reality we have not really had any real hard line ideological crackpots in charge (well Thatch was close..  )

But ideological crack pots and extremist leaders like chaos and distrust in the mainstream, they like tension and conflict, they thrive on a divided society and encourage fear of mostly imaginary enemies to forwards their own personal ambitions.  And like it or not a lot of people are taken in and it becomes a bit like a cult.  So I pray to god we do not end up going down that avenue.  All of which is ironic as this is all being done in the name of democracy apparently.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure where you are going with this.  Are you suggesting TM is the problem and the MPs are behaving reasonably?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Not sure where you are going with this.  Are you suggesting TM is the problem and the MPs are behaving reasonably?
		
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YES, YES AND YES!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Did they offer something new.
		
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It wasnâ€™t that type of mtg! It was a briefing from her prior to the press conference!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But listen to what? To Jeremy Corbyn's version? Rees-Mogg's version? Vince Cable's version? Labour's 6 points, that became 5 this week? SNP's "we're not going" version?

She got all the party leaders together this week only for Corbyn to walk out when Chuka turned up. Corbyn then ragged her in PMQ and said he wants to meet her 1-2-1 - so he's dismissing the other parties too. There is no consensus in Parliament. Only the LibDems and the SNP have had a consistent party line right through the last x years.

Personally, I think her version is a Brino deal but it does respect the original vote AND try and find some middle ground for the Remainers. Its half in, half out. Isn't that the compromise Remainers were asking for? And when offered a BRINO they've shown that they don't want compromise.
		
Click to expand...

I think this should have been looked at from outside party lines. There are moderates throughout parliament that possibly could have got a consensus through but all the press focus on is Rees Mogg, Boris or total Remainers. There are a decent number in the middle that may have got something together but now we may never know. Liddington promised a series of Indicative votes this week following the Benn amendment, that has gone awfully quiet hasn't it? Had the Benn amendment got through then maybe, 2yrs too late, we may have discovered what individual MP's actually wanted and what would have got through. If that all failed then TM could have point in calling them out but at the moment she is slagging them for not agreeing with her deal, a deal they have had no say in other than at the very end of the timsecale. She had delayed and delayed in order to bully her deal through and is losing it because they are not being bullied.

Corbyn was pathetic yesterday in walknig out because Chukka was there. That was embarrassing and pretty much confirmed why Chukka and others left.

She needs to go, an election needs to take place and whoever is left standing needs to start again with the EU, have a 1yr delay. Whether any of that happens is doubtful but that is the best chance we all have of something going through.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It wasnâ€™t that type of mtg! It was a briefing from her prior to the press conference!
		
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So you would prefer she didn't brief them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So you would prefer she didn't brief them.
		
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That makes it entirely different though. It is not a discussion to see how to progress matters, she is merely telling them what she is going to do. Very different scenarios.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Corbyn was pathetic yesterday in walknig out because Chukka was there. That was embarrassing and pretty much confirmed why Chukka and others left.
		
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Rumours this morning that Chuka Umanna is considering quitting TiG and joining Hamas so that Corbyn will be happy to sit in a room and talk to him.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think this should have been looked at from outside party lines. There are moderates throughout parliament that possibly could have got a consensus through but all the press focus on is Rees Mogg, Boris or total Remainers. There are a decent number in the middle that may have got something together but now we may never know. Liddington promised a series of Indicative votes this week following the Benn amendment, that has gone awfully quiet hasn't it? Had the Benn amendment got through then maybe, 2yrs too late, we may have discovered what individual MP's actually wanted and what would have got through. If that all failed then TM could have point in calling them out but at the moment she is slagging them for not agreeing with her deal, a deal they have had no say in other than at the very end of the timsecale. She had delayed and delayed in order to bully her deal through and is losing it because they are not being bullied.

Corbyn was pathetic yesterday in walknig out because Chukka was there. That was embarrassing and pretty much confirmed why Chukka and others left.

She needs to go, an election needs to take place and whoever is left standing needs to start again with the EU, have a 1yr delay. Whether any of that happens is doubtful but that is the best chance we all have of something going through.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with your last 2 points but think your first is a little naive. You have only got to look at how the various votes went in the last few weeks/months to see that there is too much polarisation and extremism in parliament for any group of moderates to succeed.

I was pleased when Benn was named as head of the cross-party committee on Brexit but very disappointed with how the committee functioned almost from day 1. They seemed to start with a conclusion. They had a majority of Remainers and wanted another referendum right from day 1. Even the moderates only appear moderate to those that have a similar mind set.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So you would prefer she didn't brief them.
		
Click to expand...

If you read what has come out, he was led to believe it was a 1-2-1 mtg on turning up he found the other leaders there! Now pause, Chukka is NOT a leader of a party, they themselves have stated they are not a party they are a group, he is no more than a disillushioned back bench MP,
TM moved the goalposts and got the reaction she probably wanted, ie, are we talking about her wasting all these leaders ( minus Chukka) time or are we talking about Corbyn?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Not sure where you are going with this.  Are you suggesting TM is the problem and the MPs are behaving reasonably?
		
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Not overly going in one direction in terms of blame. I thought TMs speech last night was very ill judged in trying to apportion blame to the MPs.  I am sure many of them are struggling to reconcile the need to honour what their constituents voted for with what they feel is best for the country.  And others are just using this as a means to forward their own personal political ambitions or their blinkered ideological dogmas.  

You can apportion blame just about everywhere if you really want to as many posts in this thread have done so.  It's just a bit depression that we are seeing exactly what happens if you try and enact a massive change without really thinking through how to do it or the potential implications.  And whilst I think there will be serious economic implications of whatever Brexit we end up with, that will disproportionately impact those that can least afford it, the damage to our society in terms of essentially just being a decent tolerant society that works for the good of all could be even worse.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If you read what has come out, he was led to believe it was a 1-2-1 mtg on turning up he found the other leaders there! Now pause, Chukka is NOT a leader of a party, they themselves have stated they are not a party they are a group, he is no more than a disillushioned back bench MP,
TM moved the goalposts and got the reaction she probably wanted, ie, are we talking about her wasting all these leaders ( minus Chukka) time or are we talking about Corbyn?
		
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Do you know that was the reaction she wanted? Do you know it was the Labour expectation that it was a 1-2-1? (BTW, it looked like Barry Gardner was thinking on the fly when he said that on Breakfast News this morning). That's a Hogan-esque line, making facts out of opinions.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Do you know that was the reaction she wanted? Do you know it was the Labour expectation that it was a 1-2-1? (BTW, it looked like Barry Gardner was thinking on the fly when he said that on Breakfast News this morning). That's a Hogan-esque line, making facts out of opinions.
		
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Emily Thornberry stated it last night on Preston mate, if sheâ€™s lying thatâ€™s a different answer.


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## Crazyface (Mar 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think this should have been looked at from outside party lines. There are moderates throughout parliament that possibly could have got a consensus through but all the press focus on is Rees Mogg, Boris or total Remainers. There are a decent number in the middle that may have got something together but now we may never know. Liddington promised a series of Indicative votes this week following the Benn amendment, that has gone awfully quiet hasn't it? Had the Benn amendment got through then maybe, 2yrs too late, we may have discovered what individual MP's actually wanted and what would have got through. If that all failed then TM could have point in calling them out but at the moment she is slagging them for not agreeing with her deal, a deal they have had no say in other than at the very end of the timsecale. She had delayed and delayed in order to bully her deal through and is losing it because they are not being bullied.

Corbyn was pathetic yesterday in walknig out because Chukka was there. That was embarrassing and pretty much confirmed why Chukka and others left.

*She needs to go, an election needs to take place and whoever is left standing needs to start again with the EU, have a 1yr delay. Whether any of that happens is doubtful but that is the best chance we all have of something going through*.
		
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WHAT!!!!? Is this the real LT posting? 

We need to leave without a deal. This means we can do what we want with our money and not be tied to those UNELECTED (lets not forget this!!!!!) idiot. although our elceted ones are much the same. Educated idiots who have to common sense and do not know what the man/woman who voted out want. They want OUT. NO DEAL NO SWEET NOTHING! OUT MEANS OUT. etc etc etc. Polititians have no connection with the actual voters and should all be removed. A revolution is what we want. Removed those "educated" DH's and put in people who will fight for the people!!!!!!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2019)

I see the Stop Brexit Petition 'broke' after 600,000 people signed.........why am I not surprised at that.


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## Crazyface (Mar 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not overly going in one direction in terms of blame. *I thought TMs speech last night was very ill judged in trying to apportion blame to the MPs*.  I am sure many of them are struggling to reconcile the need to honour what their constituents voted for with what they feel is best for the country.  And others are just using this as a means to forward their own personal political ambitions or their blinkered ideological dogmas. 

You can apportion blame just about everywhere if you really want to as many posts in this thread have done so.  It's just a bit depression that we are seeing exactly what happens if you try and enact a massive change without really thinking through how to do it or the potential implications.  And whilst I think there will be serious economic implications of whatever Brexit we end up with, that will disproportionately impact those that can least afford it, the damage to our society in terms of essentially just being a decent tolerant society that works for the good of all could be even worse.
		
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She is right though. The MP's don't want her deal, cos it's crup, but don't want to leave without a deal. THEY HAVE CREATED THE IMPASS, by 2 TWO BLUDDY VOTES, and now we can't find a way out. 

THE ONLY solution is to ride this out and leave without a deal on the 29th and see what happens. Will the earth stop spinning? Will it halls. Everything will be fine! Just like it was when it was when we voted and we were warned that their would be disaster everywhere. Was there? No!


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## Dan2501 (Mar 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see the Stop Brexit Petition 'broke' after 600,000 people signed.........why am I not surprised at that.
		
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 I signed it this morning when it was at about 100k, mental how quickly it blew up.


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## DRW (Mar 21, 2019)

*Albert Einstein* â€œThe definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different resultsâ€.


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## Crazyface (Mar 21, 2019)

TM should have stood up in the HOC and told the muppets in there what they have done and walked out giving them all the finger. Then announced on TV she was quitting and good luck with everything as she was off to Brussels on a shed load of money,for this is what she will be doing.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

DRW said:



*Albert Einstein* â€œThe definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different resultsâ€.
		
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That would be very true if you asked Jeremy Corbyn what his views were on Brexit, you would never understand.  If someone smacked you around the head with a 4x2 it would hurt, after a few more you would probably be dead though.


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



View attachment 26886

Click to expand...

Well her Churchill moment was less Winston but more like the Insurance dog - chasing her tail and going in circles plus she shat all over the place and then blamed Parliament for not carrying a foul bag to clean up.. the reality is that people will end up having to live with all the poo and smell ..


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 21, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			She is right though. The MP's don't want her deal, cos it's crup, but don't want to leave without a deal. THEY HAVE CREATED THE IMPASS, by 2 TWO BLUDDY VOTES, and now we can't find a way out.

THE ONLY solution is to ride this out and leave without a deal on the 29th and see what happens. Will the earth stop spinning? Will it halls. Everything will be fine! Just like it was when it was when we voted and we were warned that their would be disaster everywhere. Was there? No!
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure the earth will still spin. However just about every serious projection has said a no deal will make us economically worse off, and MPs know that. The short term fluctuations of the pound are not that relevant, it is the long term prospects that we need to be good or essentially society is in trouble.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Am still sure that she will get the deal through through basically saying it's that or no deal...
		
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I have a feeling that the result could actually be 'No Deal' followed by further 'negotiations' about how to manage UK/EU border - whis IS actually ALL THIS 'DEAL' IS ABOUT! And lo and behold, the result will be (virtually) no change from what is on the table now! And Parliament WILL either grudgingly approve it or have it forced upon it!

Then talks about trade, synchronisation of standards, security coordination and all the other UK/EU relationship issues, that many people still think was what this deal is about, can/will follow.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That would be very true if you asked Jeremy Corbyn what his views were on Brexit.  If someone smacked you around the head with a 4x2 it would hurt, after a few more you would probably be dead.
		
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More deflection and again only aimed at one person.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 21, 2019)

â€œIf at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.â€  W.C Fields.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			â€œIf at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.â€  *W.C* Fields.
		
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The only place fit for Corbyn to run.
Just thought Iâ€™d get the comment in first.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I have a feeling that the result could actually be 'No Deal' followed by further 'negotiations' about how to manage UK/EU border - whis IS actually ALL THIS 'DEAL' IS ABOUT! And lo and behold, the result will be (virtually) no change from what is on the table now! And Parliament WILL either grudgingly approve it or have it forced upon it!

Then talks about trade, synchronisation of standards, security coordination and all the other UK/EU relationship issues, that many people still think was what this deal is about, can/will follow.
		
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Would us leaving with no deal actually force the EU to advance trade talks as a priority rather than the current situation where we are being told we can't talk about a future trade agreement until everything else is confirmed? As Hobbit previously pointed out about the vast amount of fruit and veg coming from Spain that could be left rotting in queues at ports and other business throughout Europe pushing for a deal to be agreed so that they can continue to sell in to our market at their current levels without restriction.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

A sizeable chunk of me wants to see May's extension requested denied. The EU isn't going to change its position and Parliament isn't going to accept the deal the UK has negotiated - even in 3 more months. So let's get on with the post-Brexit situation - and different negotiations - asap!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree with your last 2 points but think your first is a little naive. You have only got to look at how the various votes went in the last few weeks/months to see that there is too much polarisation and extremism in parliament for any group of moderates to succeed.

I was pleased when Benn was named as head of the cross-party committee on Brexit but very disappointed with how the committee functioned almost from day 1. They seemed to start with a conclusion. They had a majority of Remainers and wanted another referendum right from day 1. Even the moderates only appear moderate to those that have a similar mind set.
		
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I agree my first point was a bit idealistic. However she made the whole process confrontational from the beginning, perhaps inevitable considering the style of British politics. However, that method fails completely if you can not follow it through, which she can not. She failed to see early on that she had no consensus and could not get her deal through. She thought she could just carry on regardless and everyone would have to come around to her way of thinking. 

How can she now build bridges, not sure she wants to though, how can she persuade people across to her deal? All she has is bluster and bribes and they are not bringing enough over.

A new broom may bring a new approach from the EU because at the moment I can not see them shifting whilst she is in charge.


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## Crazyface (Mar 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm sure the earth will still spin. However* just about every serious projection has said a no deal will make us economically worse off*, and MPs know that. The short term fluctuations of the pound are not that relevant, it is the long term prospects that we need to be good or essentially society is in trouble.
		
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They said all this when we voted. OH no it will be a disaster for the economy etc etc. Even that Yank in charge of our main BANK. I was nearly taken in. But that clown has been proved amazingly incompetent and WRONG. We have one of the only plus economys in Europe at the mo' even out doing Germany. LOL. Germany, run by Humpty Dumpty! LOL Lets see how bluddy clever she is now? See if she can turn round a failing economy? It's all well and good running one that's doing well, not so easy when it starts to fail. Can she? I wager she's as thick as she looks. The fat lump of clay!


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Would us leaving with no deal actually force the EU to advance trade talks as a priority rather than the current situation where we are being told we can't talk about a future trade agreement until everything else is confirmed? As Hobbit previously pointed out about the vast amount of fruit and veg coming from Spain that could be left rotting in queues at ports and other business throughout Europe pushing for a deal to be agreed so that they can continue to sell in to our market at their current levels without restriction.
		
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Why woud there be any difference? A No Deal now would mean that trade talks *could* start immediately - though, as you imply, the EU could (and, imo, probably would) stall them until border arrangements are settled. But that would be guaranteed if the entire process is deferred for 3 months! Meantime UK can get on with negotiating/implementing deals with non-EU countries - which would likely create pressure from EU members towards EU Commission as that rotting fruit and veg etc, would be in EU ports and warehouses.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			They said all this when we voted. OH no it will be a disaster for the economy etc etc. Even that Yank in charge of our main BANK. I was nearly taken in. But that clown has been proved amazingly incompetent and WRONG. We have one of the only plus economys in Europe at the mo' even out doing Germany. LOL. Germany, run by Humpty Dumpty! LOL Lets see how bluddy clever she is now? See if she can turn round a failing economy? It's all well and good running one that's doing well, not so easy when it starts to fail. Can she? I wager she's as thick as she looks. The fat lump of clay!
		
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Can you not just post without insulting people? It deflects from your point.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			They said all this when we voted. OH no it will be a disaster for the economy etc etc. Even that Yank in charge of our main BANK. I was nearly taken in. But that clown has been proved amazingly incompetent and WRONG. We have one of the only plus economys in Europe at the mo' even out doing Germany. LOL. Germany, run by Humpty Dumpty! LOL Lets see how bluddy clever she is now? See if she can turn round a failing economy? It's all well and good running one that's doing well, not so easy when it starts to fail. Can she? I wager she's as thick as she looks. The fat lump of clay!
		
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There's only 1 word that appropriately describes the above......Twaddle!


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## spongebob59 (Mar 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see the Stop Brexit Petition 'broke' after 600,000 people signed.........why am I not surprised at that.
		
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A petition backed by all of the faces who had been pretending to care about holding another referendum for the sake of â€˜democracyâ€™ have been sharing a new petition entitled _â€˜Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.â€™_ _Theyâ€™re not even bothering to pretend to be democrats any moreâ€¦_
The petition saw a suspicious jump in signatures last night, with blatantly fake signatures arising everywhere from Russia, to Afghanistan, to North Korea. _Tens of thousands of signatures have also come from EU states including Jean Claude Junckerâ€™s tiny Luxembourgâ€¦_


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Why woud there be any difference? A No Deal now would mean that trade talks *could* start immediately - though, as you imply, the EU could (and, imo, probably would) stall them until border arrangements are settled. But that would be guaranteed if the entire process is deferred for 3 months! Meantime UK can get on with negotiating/implementing deals with non-EU countries - which would likely create pressure from EU members towards EU Commission as that rotting fruit and veg etc, would be in EU ports and warehouses.
		
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That's what I was asking. Us leaving with no deal meaning that the EU would have to look at a trade deal pronto rather than refusing to discuss it.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 21, 2019)

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-ferraris-explosive-interview-with-labour-mp/


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			A petition backed by all of the faces who had been pretending to care about holding another referendum for the sake of â€˜democracyâ€™ have been sharing a new petition entitled _â€˜Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.â€™_ _Theyâ€™re not even bothering to pretend to be democrats any moreâ€¦_
The petition saw a suspicious jump in signatures last night, with blatantly fake signatures arising everywhere from Russia, to Afghanistan, to North Korea. _Tens of thousands of signatures have also come from EU states including Jean Claude Junckerâ€™s tiny Luxembourgâ€¦_

Click to expand...

I dont know the details, but If i am not wrong, petitions require a UK home address to be filled out.  I could be on holiday in Lux and I can fill out the form.   

BTW, the petition website is now (conveniently) down for maintenance..   Did 17m people just sign up?


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's what I was asking. Us leaving with no deal meaning that the EU would have to look at a trade deal pronto rather than refusing to discuss it.
		
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Checking your post, it seems I misinterpreted your question slightly.

I did, sort of, answer to what you seem to have asked though. But answering it directly....Probably not! They could, and probably still would still, likely refuse to do a trade deal until the border arrangements were agreed - even though they c*ould* happen simultaneously.


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## adam6177 (Mar 21, 2019)

I notice that the petition to revoke article 50 has received much media attention from the main outlets.....yet the petition to leave the EU without a deal did not.

I'd like to think it was just an oversight, but I'm realistic.


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

I had to chair and international committee of 35 nations for 3 years and what has transpired is not a surprise to me but even experienced negotiators will recognise it is almost impossible to avoid.

When anybody or organisation says a 'big 'change will come in two years but we'll start open discussions NOW on how we'll change there is one certainty and that's UNCERTAINTY - right through that period and up until the two year point you will have building confusion as the various factions fight for both the limelight, public opinion and their own benefit.

Anyone who has dealt with Political programmes and/or the EU will recognise that more time simply means more game playing to fill the time. It allow everyone to blame any ideas coming from other quarters yet it never generates consensus; unfortunately it can do the reverse and expose/generate dissent. Just look at how the contributions to this thread has generated more and more heat as time has progressed.

The EU were well aware of various political factions in the UK and their own need to be seen to be tough by the r27: they simply had to divide and rule. The UK has made it easier. The UK has been behind the curve as the EU officials (not being answerable to voters) have acted out their views on social media platforms whereas the UK has sought to be more conventionally diplomatic

It would have made next to no difference who was PM; the end game was always going to come down to an acrimonious blame game because the various sides have invested too much of their time in justifying their stance in public that they cannot backtrack.

The negotiators on both sides are largely isolated from the consequences of their action it is the people in German, Spain, Italy, Greece etc who will suffer. Yet in the UK strangely enough our business community, banking and sovereign currency will allow us to adapt more quick once this farce has run its course.

It is frustrating since we can only watch from the sidelines and the with benefit of not being accountable - the PM is at the end of a sharp stick and I don't blame her for getting a bit ratty with the game players who hold her solely responsible when they themselves would have done no better. Doesn't make the deal right so we should walk.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...-ferraris-explosive-interview-with-labour-mp/

Click to expand...

Some very interesting comments from the Leader of Plaid Cymru, Vince Cable of the LibDems and their deputy Leader. Corbyn should be ashamed of his behaviour, and isn't fit to lead a donkey to water let alone be leader of the opposition.

Whether you like their politics or not, the only leaders who have shown any level of consistency in the last 2 years are Nicola Sturgeon and Vince Cable. May's behind the scenes manoeuvring with Olly Robbins and Corbyn's anything but the Tories political stance at a time when consensus is needed is disgraceful.

May has met with Sturgeon on several occasions, and she has met the leaders of Sinn Fein and the DUP, and she's met with Plaid Cymru and the LibDems ALL BEFORE her deal was brought before parliament. 

May invited Corbyn to a meeting last year to discuss Brexit. He finally agreed to a meeting at the end of November, after being badgered by his own party, but didn't meet till the end of January. He uses PMQ's to consistently tell the UK May won't meet but when you dig behind the scenes you soon find out who has offered to meet and who has consistently said no.


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Some very interesting comments from the Leader of Plaid Cymru, Vince Cable of the LibDems and their deputy Leader. Corbyn should be ashamed of his behaviour, and isn't fit to lead a donkey to water let alone be leader of the opposition.

Whether you like their politics or not, the only leaders who have shown any level of consistency in the last 2 years are Nicola Sturgeon and Vince Cable. May's behind the scenes manoeuvring with Olly Robbins and Corbyn's anything but the Tories political stance at a time when consensus is needed is disgraceful.

May has met with Sturgeon on several occasions, and she has met the leaders of Sinn Fein and the DUP, and she's met with Plaid Cymru and the LibDems ALL BEFORE her deal was brought before parliament.

May invited Corbyn to a meeting last year to discuss Brexit. He finally agreed to a meeting at the end of November, after being badgered by his own party, but didn't meet till the end of January. He uses PMQ's to consistently tell the UK May won't meet but when you dig behind the scenes you soon find out who has offered to meet and who has consistently said no.
		
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Yup, and because of the infighting there's (IMO) a grave danger he could become PM by accident/default - then we really would be in the s***. Can you imagine JC in discussion with Merkel, Macron, Juncker let alone other world leaders - Trump, the PM of India, China etc. Any embarrassment we have as the  UK people and pain businesses might worry about arising from Brexit would be like comparing an ankle sprain and a broken leg.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			More deflection and again only aimed at one person. 

Click to expand...

Deflection!  Change the record!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Some very interesting comments from the Leader of Plaid Cymru, Vince Cable of the LibDems and their deputy Leader. Corbyn should be ashamed of his behaviour, and isn't fit to lead a donkey to water let alone be leader of the opposition.

Whether you like their politics or not, the only leaders who have shown any level of consistency in the last 2 years are Nicola Sturgeon and Vince Cable. May's behind the scenes manoeuvring with Olly Robbins and Corbyn's anything but the Tories political stance at a time when consensus is needed is disgraceful.

May has met with Sturgeon on several occasions, and she has met the leaders of Sinn Fein and the DUP, and she's met with Plaid Cymru and the LibDems ALL BEFORE her deal was brought before parliament.

May invited Corbyn to a meeting last year to discuss Brexit. He finally agreed to a meeting at the end of November, after being badgered by his own party, but didn't meet till the end of January. He uses PMQ's to consistently tell the UK May won't meet but when you dig behind the scenes you soon find out who has offered to meet and who has consistently said no.
		
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drdel said:



			Yup, and because of the infighting there's (IMO) a grave danger he could become PM by accident/default - then we really would be in the s***. Can you imagine JC in discussion with Merkel, Macron, Juncker let alone other world leaders - Trump, the PM of India, China etc. Any embarrassment we have as the  UK people and pain businesses might worry about arising from Brexit would be like comparing an ankle sprain and a broken leg.
		
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Iâ€™ve no doubt you guys have more experience on this than me, I still donâ€™t get why everytime thereâ€™s an issue over the present Government and their performance we get Corbyn brought in to it and use him as the bogeyman.
Iâ€™m not a Corbyn supporter, I just see him as an easy excuse for people to hide or deflect from TM and her majority (whichever way it came about).

I dread JC becoming PM, but if he is elected then surely weâ€™ll get the same people on here saying democracy has spoken and we should accept it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Deflection!  Change the record!
		
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Oh the irony!


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## spongebob59 (Mar 21, 2019)

Why is he out there ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108707592845459464


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Why is he out there ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108707592845459464

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Statesmanship !!!!


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## Crazyface (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There's only 1 word that appropriately describes the above......Twaddle!
		
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Thank you.


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## Crazyface (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Can you not just post without insulting people? It deflects from your point.
		
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I had a head of steam built up and couldn't stop.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			May has met with Sturgeon on several occasions, and she has met the leaders of Sinn Fein and the DUP, and she's met with Plaid Cymru and the LibDems ALL BEFORE her deal was brought before parliament.
		
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Based on the comments from all of the above, except Sinn Fein as I have no idea their views and as they don't vote they don't matter, over this period she may well have met all of these people but she has not listened or altered her view on any issue. A little like yesterday it is more like she briefs them, she certainly does not listen and take notice.


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

The petition now over 850K+..   not that i am tracking..   More interesting was the spread of the petitioners -


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Based on the comments from all of the above, except Sinn Fein as I have no idea their views and as they don't vote they don't matter, over this period she may well have met all of these people but she has not listened or altered her view on any issue. A little like yesterday it is more like she briefs them, she certainly does not listen and take notice.
		
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How do you know she doesn't listen?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The petition now over 850K+..   not that i am tracking..   More interesting was the spread of the petitioners -

View attachment 26890

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What colour are the petitioner areas.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 21, 2019)

interesting idea, new referendum, revoke A50 vs no deal !


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How do you know she doesn't listen?
		
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Okay, take the second part of my sentence. She may listen but she does not alter her view, that is utterly evident. That approach is fine if you have a whopping majority but she doesn't. She has to be more flexible, take on other ideas but she has refused to. Now she is stuck up a blind alley after refusing to listen to anyone giving her options for directions.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Oh the irony! 

Click to expand...

Grow up.  You seem to think any criticism of Corbyn is a slight on yourself and then start the playground name calling.


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What colour are the petitioner areas.
		
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the Yellow is where they petitioned from... The darker it gets, the more petitioners from that area.     Basically, they has been a petiitioner from every part of the country incl England & Wales (which voted out).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Grow up.  You seem to think any criticism of Corbyn is a slight on yourself and then start the playground name calling.
		
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No I donâ€™t, what part of Iâ€™m no fan of his and donâ€™t want him as PM did you miss, Iâ€™ve called criticism of him in this matter as lazy and an easy cop out.
You on the other hand seem to see no fault with the government and TM recently.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve no doubt you guys have more experience on this than me, I still donâ€™t get why everytime thereâ€™s an issue over the present Government and their performance we get Corbyn brought in to it and use him as the bogeyman.
Iâ€™m not a Corbyn supporter, I just see him as an easy excuse for people to hide or deflect from TM and her majority (whichever way it came about).

I dread JC becoming PM, but if he is elected then surely weâ€™ll get the same people on here saying democracy has spoken and we should accept it.
		
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Pretty certain I said, in the post you quoted, May's behind the scenes antics were disgraceful. I don't like Sturgeon's politics at all, her old fashioned socialist spend and be damned, but I respect her as a politician. Whether it was Corbyn or Mother Theresa I would criticise them for their behaviour in leaving that meeting.

I didn't deflect. I included May in the criticism.

I won't deny I don't like Corbyn's politics at all but that's because it has no balance. The fact he met with Hamas etc isn't necessarily a bad thing. What lets him down, and I have said it elsewhere in the Corbyn thread, is he hasn't met with the Israeli's. He's been to IRA funerals but how many fallen soldier's funerals has he attended? I actually agree with his stance in meeting those groups but you have to have balance to have credibility otherwise you will be seen as a supporter of those causes. Add to that it isn't the odd cause here or there and his performance in parliament over many years, the guy is an extremist.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			the Yellow is where they petitioned from... The darker it gets, the more petitioners from that area.     Basically, they has been a petiitioner from every part of the country incl England & Wales (which voted out).
		
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That's not really a surprise though is it? Even the most ardent Leave areas were only around 65% (?) leave voters so that still leaves a lot of others that voted Remain in those areas that could have signed the petition. I'm sure if you looked at the reverse situation there would be some people in Scotland who would vote to leave with no deal even though the country as a whole voted remain.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No I donâ€™t, what part of Iâ€™m no fan of his and donâ€™t want him as PM did you miss, Iâ€™ve called criticism of him in this matter as lazy and an easy cop out.
You on the other hand seem to see no fault with the government and TM recently.
		
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I see lots of problems with the government and TM, I cant understand how you haven't noticed. Unlike you though I don't try to defend everything She/They do.


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

OK,I am more than a little confused now and am playing catch up a bit. From what I can see:

Parlliament agreed that it would have a vote on the final brexit decision 
Parliament has voted that there will not be an agreement on no deal. 
There is only 1 deal on the table and that cannot be voted on again unless changed and the EU will not change it. 

So, we cannot have no deal and we cannot vote on the only deal on the table.

Whilst not that appealing, my view is that we need a 6-12 month delay on Brexit and an immdediate general election whereby all parties must make clear their intentions on the current deal, no deal and no brexit. That would, hopefully, give a workable parliament on brexit as those there would be a majority (even by coalition) who had been elected on the same Brexit message.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's not really a surprise though is it? Even the most ardent Leave areas were only around 65% (?) leave voters so that still leaves a lot of others that voted Remain in those areas that could have signed the petition. I'm sure if you looked at the reverse situation there would be some people in Scotland who would vote to leave with no deal even though the country as a whole voted remain.
		
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And when you spread the almost 1,000,000 signatories of the petition across each of the constituencies you get... not many out of 34,000,000 who originally voted.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			OK,I am more than a little confused now and am playing catch up a bit. From what I can see:

Parlliament agreed that it would have a vote on the final brexit decision
Parliament has voted that there will not be an agreement on no deal.
There is only 1 deal on the table and that cannot be voted on again unless changed and the EU will not change it.

So, we cannot have no deal and we cannot vote on the only deal on the table.

Whilst not that appealing, my view is that we need a 6-12 month delay on Brexit and an immdediate general election whereby all parties must make clear their intentions on the current deal, no deal and no brexit. That would, hopefully, give a workable parliament on brexit as those there would be a majority (even by coalition) who had been elected on the same Brexit message.
		
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Stop it! You're being too sensible.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Pretty certain I said, in the post you quoted, May's behind the scenes antics were disgraceful. I don't like Sturgeon's politics at all, her old fashioned socialist spend and be damned, but I respect her as a politician. Whether it was Corbyn or Mother Theresa I would criticise them for their behaviour in leaving that meeting.

I didn't deflect. I included May in the criticism.

I won't deny I don't like Corbyn's politics at all but that's because it has no balance. The fact he met with Hamas etc isn't necessarily a bad thing. What lets him down, and I have said it elsewhere in the Corbyn thread, is he hasn't met with the Israeli's. He's been to IRA funerals but how many fallen soldier's funerals has he attended? I actually agree with his stance in meeting those groups but you have to have balance to have credibility otherwise you will be seen as a supporter of those causes. Add to that it isn't the odd cause here or there and his performance in parliament over many years, the guy is an extremist.
		
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And how does any of that help with Brexit, any conversation/posts etc concerning Corbyn his past is brought up.
His and others explanations of him walking out the meeting are immediately dismissed, why? Because theyâ€™re lies or because itâ€™s him?
Her deal has been slated by every man and his dog and yet Corbyn is being labelled as the problem and questions today over his appearance in Brussels, what if he can make the breakthroughs she canâ€™t, maybe as a socialist he has more in common with some of them, surely she should be encouraging everybody to try and sort this mess out.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And when you spread the almost 1,000,000 signatories of the petition across each of the constituencies you get... not many out of 34,000,000 who originally voted.
		
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This petition has gone viral and has attracted around 1 million responses. As Dan Walker pointed out on Twitter, there was a guy that wanted free chicken nuggets and got 3.5 million retweets. So far, 3.5 times the number of people that want Article 50 revoked wanted a guy they didn't know to get free chicken nuggets.


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			OK,I am more than a little confused now and am playing catch up a bit. From what I can see:

Parlliament agreed that it would have a vote on the final brexit decision
Parliament has voted that there will not be an agreement on no deal.
There is only 1 deal on the table and that cannot be voted on again unless changed and the EU will not change it.

So, we cannot have no deal and we cannot vote on the only deal on the table.

Whilst not that appealing, my view is that we need a 6-12 month delay on Brexit and an immdediate general election whereby all parties must make clear their intentions on the current deal, no deal and no brexit. That would, hopefully, give a workable parliament on brexit as those there would be a majority (even by coalition) who had been elected on the same Brexit message.
		
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The issue is that the Parties are themselves split. All the parties voted for a Referendum, they all supported Art 50 - more time = more fighting not less = more entrenchment = more uncertainty for business/people.


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And how does any of that help with Brexit, any conversation/posts etc concerning Corbyn his past is brought up.
His and others explanations of him walking out the meeting are immediately dismissed, why? Because theyâ€™re lies or because itâ€™s him?
Her deal has been slated by every man and his dog and yet Corbyn is being labelled as the problem and questions today over his appearance in Brussels, what if he can make the breakthroughs she canâ€™t, maybe as a socialist he has more in common with some of them, surely she should be encouraging everybody to try and sort this mess out.
		
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Thing is, any negotiated deal is going to be slated by both sides as it will involve concession. The Hard Brexit side will hate it as it has concessions to the EU, the Soft Brexit side will hate it because it has concessions to the Hard Brexit side and the remainers will hate it because it involves leaving the EU. Quite simply no deal was ever going to please anyone and that is the problem (aside from the fact that behind the facade in Parliament we are sitll having the lease/remain argument). This was an unwinable situation with too many entrenched views and too many hidden agendas. Starting to think that, even remain is not on the balot, a referendum that is legally binding is the only way forward. Parliament will not agree on this as it currently stands.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's not really a surprise though is it? Even the most ardent Leave areas were only around 65% (?) leave voters so that still leaves a lot of others that voted Remain in those areas that could have signed the petition. I'm sure if you looked at the reverse situation there would be some people in Scotland who would vote to leave with no deal even though the country as a whole voted remain.
		
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There are some people in Scotland who support both Independence and No Deal Leave.


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

Ahhaha.... the govt laughs at your face..  

*"Should it reach more than 17.4 million respondents then I'm sure there would be a very clear case for taking action"* Commons Leader Andrea Leadsom on #*RevokeArticle50* petition that crashed Parliament website

Wasnt she in the running for PM!!



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108708533019832323


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Thing is, any negotiated deal is going to be slated by both sides as it will involve concession. The Hard Brexit side will hate it as it has concessions to the EU, the Soft Brexit side will hate it because it has concessions to the Hard Brexit side and the remainers will hate it because it involves leaving the EU. Quite simply no deal was ever going to please anyone and that is the problem (aside from the fact that behind the facade in Parliament we are sitll having the lease/remain argument). This was an unwinable situation with too many entrenched views and too many hidden agendas. Starting to think that, even remain is not on the balot, a referendum that is legally binding is the only way forward. Parliament will not agree on this as it currently stands.
		
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I donâ€™t have any issue with that, but we find ourselves in this position because of TMâ€™s negotiating stance, she should of been more open to cross party or internal party politics.
I know itâ€™s simplistic, but if sheâ€™d of sorted her own party out she may of got the support to get the deal done.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:





pauldj42 said:



			Oh the irony! 

Click to expand...

...
 and then start the playground name calling.
		
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Oh the irony!


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## Crazyface (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			OK,I am more than a little confused now and am playing catch up a bit. From what I can see:

Parlliament agreed that it would have a vote on the final brexit decision
Parliament has voted that there will not be an agreement on no deal.
There is only 1 deal on the table and that cannot be voted on again unless changed and the EU will not change it.

So, we cannot have no deal and we cannot vote on the only deal on the table.

Whilst not that appealing, my view is that we need a 6-12 month delay on Brexit and an immdediate general election whereby all parties must make clear their intentions on the current deal, no deal and no brexit. That would, hopefully, give a workable parliament on brexit as those there would be a majority (even by coalition) who had been elected on the same Brexit message.
		
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Er, we did that 2 years ago. Both Tories and Labour stood on policies that said they will take us out. So that's not a good idea. They just lie to us, surprise surprise.


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## jp5 (Mar 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			This petition has gone viral and has attracted around 1 million responses. As Dan Walker pointed out on Twitter, there was a guy that wanted free chicken nuggets and got 3.5 million retweets. So far, 3.5 times the number of people that want Article 50 revoked wanted a guy they didn't know to get free chicken nuggets.
		
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Not quite comparing like for like though is it.


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			The issue is that the Parties are themselves split. All the parties voted for a Referendum, they all supported Art 50 - more time = more fighting not less = more entrenchment = more uncertainty for business/people.
		
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The referendum was voted through with a strong Government majority and, in any event, the remainers never envisaged a loss (massive hubris there). Article 50, again, was voted for at a time with a strong majority plus, so near to the initial vote, it would have been political suicide to vote against. The only way to get this through parliament is to have


Crazyface said:



			Er, we did that 2 years ago. Both Tories and Labour stood on policies that said they will take us out. So that's not a good idea. They just lie to us, surprise surprise.
		
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Different question now though. Neither party has put their head above the parapet and said out and out to remain and so both, in technical terms, have been good to their word. The issue is about how we leave (I only mentioned remain as an option as the libdema and TIG will stand on that basis irrespective). As all the cards are now on the table, an election could be fought on no deal or the deal on the table. It is a massive red herring to pretend that there is another deal around the corner. Not having an intentional go at Corbyn but he is bringing up options in parliament that are just no on the table. Any vote has to be based on the realistic options that we now have, of which there are 3 that are clear and defined.


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t have any issue with that, but we find ourselves in this position because of TMâ€™s negotiating stance, she should of been more open to cross party or internal party politics.
I know itâ€™s simplistic, but if sheâ€™d of sorted her own party out she may of got the support to get the deal done.
		
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I do agree that as soon as the result was known, this should have been addressed as a cross party matter rather than be dealt with and negotiated by one side. I would say that hindsight is a wonderful thing but this was obviosu from the start


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...I still donâ€™t get why everytime thereâ€™s an issue over the present Government and their performance we get Corbyn brought in to it and use him as the bogeyman....
		
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Because he'd be the 'natural' alternative to a Tory government.


pauldj42 said:



			...
I dread JC becoming PM, but if he is elected then surely weâ€™ll get the same people on here saying democracy has spoken and we should accept it.
		
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It would, in fact, make no difference either way - as, given a sufficient majority, UK would be lumbered with him/his party.

But Labour has changed from the party it was in the Blair days. It seems to have gone back to the 'old' style Unions driven Labour, that was simply unelectable!


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			OK,I am more than a little confused now and am playing catch up a bit. From what I can see:

Parlliament agreed that it would have a vote on the final brexit decision
Parliament has voted that there will not be an agreement on no deal.
There is only 1 deal on the table and that cannot be voted on again unless changed and the EU will not change it.

So, we cannot have no deal and we cannot vote on the only deal on the table.

Whilst not that appealing, my view is that we need a 6-12 month delay on Brexit and an immdediate general election whereby all parties must make clear their intentions on the current deal, no deal and no brexit. That would, hopefully, give a workable parliament on brexit as those there would be a majority (even by coalition) who had been elected on the same Brexit message.
		
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Parliament might not like it, but No Deal happens on March 29 by default unless a deal or a delay is agreed!

I'm certain that a General Election would not solve this 'crisis'! In all likelihood, it would, imo, make it worse!


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Parliament might not like it, but No Deal happens on March 29 by default unless a deal or a delay is agreed!

I'm certain that a General Election would not solve this 'crisis'! In all likelihood, it would, imo, make it worse!
		
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Motion in parliament to repeal article 50 would end that and then we have a real constitutional crisis. A general election would remove all of the current facades and force parties and politicians to front up with their real thoughts


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Not quite comparing like for like though is it.
		
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Absolutely not. Free chicken nuggets is far more important.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...
I know itâ€™s simplistic, but if sheâ€™d of sorted her own party out she may of got the support to get the deal done.
		
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Indeed (too) simplistic!

1. 'Sorting her own party out' was never going to happen! Too many are simply Remainers!
2. The EU negotiating team was, quite deliberately, never going to come up with a deal that was 'sellable'!


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed (too) simplistic!

1. 'Sorting her own party out' was never going to happen! Too many are simply Remainers!
*2. The EU negotiating team was, quite deliberately, never going to come up with a deal that was 'sellable'*!
		
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Stop blaming the EU for the incompetence of our lot.    

I went to the Ferrari showroom, really loved the car but the idiot salesman said I cant own it because i dont have the money.  Surely, some money is better than his car sitting in the forecourt.  It is his loss..  I was willing.


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed (too) simplistic!

1. 'Sorting her own party out' was never going to happen! Too many are simply Remainers!
2. The EU negotiating team was, quite deliberately, never going to come up with a deal that was 'sellable'!
		
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Actually it is the die hard no dealers who are the main issue not the remainers though no doubt both are an issue.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Motion in parliament to repeal article 50 would end that and then we have a real constitutional crisis. A general election would remove all of the current facades and force parties and politicians to front up with their real thoughts
		
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Agreed, but that motion would 'defy the will of the people's referendum' result - and would also require the repeal of the Withdrawal act. 

I'm almost certain that a GE would NOT solve anything wrt leaving the EU - unless a majority of Remainers could defy party commitments and, likewise, 'defy the will of the people's referendum result'!


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Actually it is the die hard no dealers who are the main issue not the remainers though no doubt both are an issue.
		
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On this matter, we will have to disagree - though the likes of ERG are a definite (but, imo, reasonably correct) thorn in her side. They were certainly not reluctant (and totally correct imo) to point out the potential trap in an earlier version of 'the deal' that tied UK permanently to the EU! Their 'rule' about the supremacy of ECJ meaning haven't (fully) left is quite correct. Just too black/white for practicality imo.


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Agreed, but that motion would 'defy the will of the people's referendum' result - and would also require the repeal of the Withdrawal act. 

I'm almost certain that a GE would NOT solve anything wrt leaving the EU - unless a majority of Remainers could defy party commitments and, likewise, 'defy the will of the people's referendum result'!
		
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The problem with having 2 types of voting system.  It would, for example be possible to get voted in on a remain ticket despite the region voting generally for leave.  There is also the issue of views changing.

As for the referendum result, that is being used as a political football qnd I am not sure, in truth, that many politicians care about it beyond an excuse to rally support for their own ideas.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Stop blaming the EU for the incompetence of our lot.  

I went to the Ferrari showroom, really loved the car but the idiot salesman said I cant own it because i dont have the money.  Surely, some money is better than his car sitting in the forecourt.  It is his loss..  I was willing.
		
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Ridiculous analogy!

Btw. There's absolutely no 'blame' by me on either party! Except, perhaps, on their inability to get a deal that defined the EU/UK border properly and wasn't 'hard'!


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			On this matter, we will have to disagree - though the likes of ERG are a definite (but, imo, reasonably correct) thorn in her side. They were certainly not reluctant (and totally correct imo) to point out the potential trap in an earlier version of 'the deal' that tied UK permanently to the EU! Their 'rule' about the supremacy of ECJ meaning haven't (fully) left is quite correct. Just too black/white for practicality imo.
		
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So they are ignoring the voice if the people. If we agree that the type of brexit was not specified then they have blocked Brexit happening next week because it is not the Brexit they want.


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## Crazyface (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			The referendum was voted through with a strong Government majority and, in any event, the remainers never envisaged a loss (massive hubris there). Article 50, again, was voted for at a time with a strong majority plus, so near to the initial vote, it would have been political suicide to vote against. The only way to get this through parliament is to have


Different question now though. Neither party has put their head above the parapet and said out and out to remain and so both, in technical terms, have been good to their word. The issue is about how we leave (I only mentioned remain as an option as the libdema and TIG will stand on that basis irrespective). As all the cards are now on the table, an election could be fought on no deal or the deal on the table. It is a massive red herring to pretend that there is another deal around the corner. Not having an intentional go at Corbyn but he is bringing up options in parliament that are just no on the table. Any vote has to be based on the realistic options that we now have, of which there are 3 that are clear and defined.
		
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They can ONLY fight on the terms of the withdrawal, we've voted on that. They can only offer ways to withdraw. That would be a fun thing to watch!


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## Crazyface (Mar 21, 2019)

And also All Labour voters up North who voted out ( and eee bye gum there were a lot of them) who haven't had their wishes met should vote...er er. Nige! Nige! are you starting that party of your's mate?


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			They can ONLY fight on the terms of the withdrawal, we've voted on that. They can only offer ways to withdraw. That would be a fun thing to watch!
		
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I disagree, if enough people want the question asked again then it would be undemocratic not to do so. The electorate can change its mind. If the will of the people is still to leave, leave will clearly win so no issue there


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			I disagree, if enough people want the question asked again then it would be undemocratic not to do so. The electorate can change its mind. If the will of the people is still to leave, leave will clearly win so no issue there
		
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But, and its a big but - you're assuming the EU would have been happy to have a completely different deal where the Irish issue was not on the table but leaving to customs union, freedom of movement etc was.

Negotiation is by definition between to opposing factions yet you seem to give no credence to the EU's stance of protecting the political project at all cost and thereby its stonewalling of anything from the UK (irrespective of Political doctrine or personalities)


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			So they are ignoring the voice if the people. If we agree that the type of brexit was not specified then they have blocked Brexit happening next week because it is not the Brexit they want.
		
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They are still 'defying the will of the people' though!

The type of Brexit required was, quite sensibly, not asked!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2019)

Don't say I did not warn you.
I have two big bundles in my loft + kitchen towels.
Also 1,200 litres of heating fuel in the tank.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...-of-no-deal-brexit/ar-BBV3erW?ocid=spartandhp


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			They are still 'defying the will of the people' though!

The type of Brexit required was, quite sensibly, not asked!
		
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Indeed so on that basis any stance that stops the quickest brexit from hapenning is defying the will if the people


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			They are still 'defying the will of the people' though!

*The type of Brexit required was, quite sensibly, not asked!*

Click to expand...

Exactly. How on earth could a referendum ask questions with 'options' for leaving when you are about to enter discussions on how to separate and how to deal in the future.  The whole issue has been frustrated by the pseudo pretence that you can discuss separation without taking any cognizance of what you BOTH want for the future.

If we'd had discussed the future mutual advantages to the UK and EU of agreed alignments in some areas and how we could develop systems we could trust to 'police' each other the daft bit about Ireland and a 'backstop' contingency would have been addressed in a mature way.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			So they are ignoring the voice if the people. If we agree that the type of brexit was not specified then *they have blocked Brexit happening next week because it is not the Brexit they want*.
		
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By their definition, May's deal is NOT Brexit!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			And also All Labour voters up North who voted out ( and eee bye gum there were a lot of them) who haven't had their wishes met should vote...er er. Nige! Nige! are you starting that party of your's mate?
		
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Is that the one where the leader has just resigned due to anti Islamic posts.
Remind me again ,why did Nigel leave UKIP to join them [whatever they are called].


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			By their definition, May's deal is NOT Brexit!
		
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But who is to say that is right. By not defining brexit in the original vote you now have a massive grey area and hence the problems. To parts of the tory party anything less than a no deal brexit is not brexit. Which is the will of the people?


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't say I did not warn you.
I have two big bundles in my loft + kitchen towels.
Also 1,200 litres of heating fuel in the tank.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...-of-no-deal-brexit/ar-BBV3erW?ocid=spartandhp

Click to expand...

Eminently sensible, given the Brit tendency to 'panic buy' at the drop of a hat!

Btw Bit of a slip missing a rather important word (tonnes)  in the caption!


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			But who is to say that is right...
		
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It matters (to them) not a jot! They have their definition - which I actually agree with, if not their intransgence of allowing a 'phased implimentation' 


GB72 said:



			...By not defining brexit in the original vote you now have a massive grey area and hence the problems. To parts of the tory party anything less than a no deal brexit is not brexit...
		
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That was never gouing to happen!


GB72 said:



			...Which is the will of the people?...
		
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The question was, effectively, 'Do we Leave or do we Stay'! And the Leave side won, therefore anything other than 'Leave' is not 'the will of the people! Now HOW we leave was always up for negotiation!


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It matters (to them) not a jot! They have their definition - which I actually agree with, if not their intransgence of allowing a 'phased implimentation' 

That was never gouing to happen!

The question was, effectively, 'Do we Leave or do we Stay'! And the Leave side won, therefore anything other than 'Leave' is not 'the will of the people! Now HOW we leave was always up for negotiation!
		
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Which is why leave needed defining. What remaining ties with europe count as not leaving.


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't say I did not warn you.
I have two big bundles in my loft + kitchen towels.
Also 1,200 litres of heating fuel in the tank.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...-of-no-deal-brexit/ar-BBV3erW?ocid=spartandhp

Click to expand...

Perhaps their stock pile might come in handy if they jack up the price and just happen make a killing.


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Which is why leave needed defining. What remaining ties with europe count as not leaving.
		
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How do you define something that is not within your gift to unilaterally define as it is to be subject to the outcome of  future discussions?


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			How do you define something that is not within your gift to unilaterally define as it is to be subject to the outcome of  future discussions?
		
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In the same way that parliament is discussing options not on the table. For something as far reaching as this you need clarity and there is none. Now it cannot be ascertained who voted wanting or expecting a no deal and who voted based on the promised, easily negotiated exit agreement. With no definition who can say what the will of the people is as it is open to massive levels of interpretation


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



*They are still 'defying the will of the people' though!*

The type of Brexit required was, quite sensibly, not asked!
		
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*Agree*... but may i ask.. what specifically is  the will of the people?  Other than 'we want to leave', the will of the people is a rainbow of wills - Norway, Canada, Hard, Semi-Soft, Soft, Swiss, WTO, MFN , i-want-2-change-my-mind, Backstop, No-Backstop, Hard Border, No Border, No Immigration, Single Market, No Single Market, etc etc.     

Are you able to summarise in 1 sentence the Will of the people that should be implemented and therefore should be part of the Deal/WA.     

As far as blaming Remainers - their 'Will' has been singular since Day 1.

Answer on a postcard please -- and no blaming others. 

(I have also added a smiley in case a Leaver gets offended)


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Which is why leave needed defining...
		
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Not imo!


GB72 said:



			... What remaining ties with europe count as not leaving.
		
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It depends! But ERG's definition certainly works.

Btw 'It's the EU we are leaving, not Europe!


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Agree... but may i ask.. what specifically is  the will of the people?  Other than '*we want to leave*'...
		
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The bold bit!


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## Crazyface (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			I disagree, if enough people want the question asked again then it would be undemocratic not to do so. The electorate can change its mind. If the will of the people is still to leave, leave will clearly win so no issue there
		
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No problem, it is your DEMOCRATIC right to be wrong.


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## Crazyface (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			They are still 'defying the will of the people' though!

The type of Brexit required was, quite sensibly, not asked!
		
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Because the deal that is best, the EU want to charge us for. So if a company said to you we will charge you to do business with us. as well as charge you for our goods, would you say ok and shell out the money or look for a better deal?


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Because the deal that is best, the EU want to charge us for. So if a company said to you we will charge you to do business with us. as well as charge you for our goods, would you say ok and shell out the money or look for a better deal?
		
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Actually the payments are based on financial promises made by the uk that already existed. To leave and not honor those commitments will leave years of litigation at a cost of millions and a serious impact on the uks ability to borrow globally.


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			No problem, it is your DEMOCRATIC right to be wrong.
		
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Any person who votes their conscience can never be wrong.


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			The bold bit!
		
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Under any circumstances no matter the wider issues. So if our leaving the EU resulted in all foreign investment leaving the uk or if general taxation had to triple to cover increased costs (extreme for the sake of simplicity not a project fear thing) then that would still the the leave you voted for


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

To those who are confused or wish to define what LEAVE entails - the EU's conditions of membership have some main elements.

Quite simply then any Members who is to LEAVE will *not* agree to continue to....
1. Pay contributions to the centre at a rate set by the centre as it so wishes. The centre's spending it at its own unilateral discretion.
2. Permit he European Court to have primacy over a member's legal system
3. There will be unrestricted movement of people.
4. Member nations will not  trade individually outside the EU membership
5. Member countries must not subsidise national businesses and all procurement must be open to any member's business.
6. The centre may refuse a nations agreed budget.
7.....

I could go on. Obviously a vote to leave said we will not be bound by these demands/constraints. QED!!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2019)

Really feel we are now at the point of shaking hands and wishing Brussels all the best on their future journey without us...


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			To those who are confused or wish to define what LEAVE entails - the EU's conditions of membership have some main elements.

Quite simply then any Members who is to LEAVE will *not* agree to continue to....
1. Pay contributions to the centre at a rate set by the centre as it so wishes. The centre's spending it at its own unilateral discretion.
2. Permit he European Court to have primacy over a member's legal system
3. There will be unrestricted movement of people.
4. Member nations will not  trade individually outside the EU membership
5. Member countries must not subsidise national businesses and all procurement must be open to any member's business.
6. The centre may refuse a nations agreed budget.
7.....

I could go on. Obviously a vote to leave said we will not be bound by these demands/constraints. QED!!
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant.... But is that *ALL Leavers *wanted? ..   if that is so, why are they still talking about Leaving but staying common markets.  I see that NI border is not on the list.


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Brilliant.... But is that *ALL Leavers *wanted? ..   if that is so, why are they still talking about Leaving but staying common markets.  I see that NI border is not on the list.
		
Click to expand...

List ain't comprehensive (I got bored) . I guess the NI bit is buried in 4 and related to not trading outside (honest!)


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Because the deal that is best, the EU want to charge us for. So if a company said to you we will charge you to do business with us. as well as charge you for our goods, would you say ok and shell out the money or look for a better deal?
		
Click to expand...

1. Those 'charges' were actually agreed, or at least, committed to by UK.
2. When will folk stop trying to equate politics/diplomacy with business?! They are completely different beasts!


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Under any circumstances no matter the wider issues. So if our leaving the EU resulted in all foreign investment leaving the uk or if general taxation had to triple to cover increased costs (extreme for the sake of simplicity not a project fear thing) then that would still the the leave you voted for
		
Click to expand...

1. Yes, but hardly an acceptable 'deal'!
2. I voted Remain!


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## GB72 (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			1. Yes, but hardly an acceptable 'deal'!
2. I voted Remain!
		
Click to expand...

Thing is the argument being put forward is the vote was not deal dependent but rather was just about leaving. Just trying to ascertain whether there was a vote to leave or a vote to leave if the deal was right.

Apologies, bored at work and must admit to playing devils advocate a bit.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Brilliant.... But is that *ALL Leavers *wanted? ..   if that is so, why are they still talking about Leaving but staying common markets...
		
Click to expand...

Quite probably not. But on balance they decided, or were convinced, to vote Leave! Same as when you vote in a GE. You may not prefer ALL a party's policy, but on balance....
Same applies to those that voted Remain - certainly me! Might not have been keen on every policy of the EU, but on balance....

It's not the 'Common Market' (officially 'The Single Market' I believe) that's wanted, but a hybrid that doesn't include the Freedom of Movemetn pillart!


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Thing is the argument being put forward is the vote was not deal dependent but rather was just about leaving. Just trying to ascertain whether there was a vote to leave or a vote to leave if the deal was right...
		
Click to expand...

Go check what question was asked!


GB72 said:



			...
Apologies, bored at work and must admit to playing devils advocate a bit.
		
Click to expand...

I'm bored replying! Kindly stop!

PS: Nothing actually wrong with 'playing Devil's Advocate' - up to a point! I remember that being one of 'my traits' determined in a psychometric test many years ago! And it was deemed a positive trait for my role!


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			The bold bit!
		
Click to expand...

Nicely dodged the question.. almost Corbynisque .. 

credit where it is dur, atleast Dr D tried


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## spongebob59 (Mar 21, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108792626734661632


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If you read what has come out, he was led to believe it was a 1-2-1 mtg on turning up he found the other leaders there! Now pause, Chukka is NOT a leader of a party, they themselves have stated they are not a party they are a group, he is no more than a disillushioned back bench MP,
TM moved the goalposts and got the reaction she probably wanted, ie, are we talking about her wasting all these leaders ( minus Chukka) time or are we talking about Corbyn?
		
Click to expand...

Chukka wasn't there for the leaders meeting, he just happened to be in the room where they all met up prior to going to separate meetings. Corbyn threw his teddy in the corner by jumping to the wrong conclusion. Such a great diplomat.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 21, 2019)

Given @*theresa_may*â€™s refusal to shift her Brexit red lines, the EU27 are determined not to bend theirs, as per this from draft council conclusions - â€œany unilateral commitment, statement or other act should be compatible with the letter and spirit of the WAâ€. What it means is... 
that @*theresa_may* is being ordered not to promise any concession to Northern Irelandâ€™s DUP that impairs the impact in any meaningful way of the backstop loathed by DUP and Tory ERG MPs. EU leaders are not making it any easier for her to win that crucial meaningful vote. In... 
the words of one well-placed source here in Brussels, they know her deal is already dead.


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108792626734661632

Click to expand...


Wow .. just Wow..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Chukka wasn't there for the leaders meeting, he just happened to be in the room where they all met up prior to going to separate meetings. Corbyn threw his teddy in the corner by jumping to the wrong conclusion. Such a great diplomat.
		
Click to expand...

Is one version of events!


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## spongebob59 (Mar 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Wow .. just Wow..
		
Click to expand...

A high stakes poker game now in play


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## Fade and Die (Mar 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108792626734661632

Click to expand...


C'mon T hold your nerve.... you nearly have us over the line!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2019)

Finding it hugely hilarious that despite that it should only be Ms May holding our attention... Folk can't help but bring Jezza into the conversation...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			C'mon T hold your nerve.... you nearly have us over the line!

Click to expand...

Then she can step aside for someone else to get us out of the poverty her decision would leave us in.


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			C'mon T hold your nerve.... you nearly have us over the line!

Click to expand...

Line or Cliff  

T's naughty moment as a child.. was running thru a wheat field 
T's naughty moment as a PM.. is running thru the field and off a cliff (along with 60m citizens)


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Then she can step aside for someone else to get us out of the poverty her decision would leave us in.
		
Click to expand...

Poverty ! This is really getting silly now.


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2019)

It appears the r27 are having difficulty agreeing an extension end date and whether its conditional on UK MP's vote - they're having some refreshment and reconvening - I guess Juncker might give them a song or two after being refreshed!!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			It appears the r27 are having difficulty agreeing an extension end date and whether its conditional on UK MP's vote - they're having some refreshment and reconvening - I guess Juncker might give them a song or two after being refreshed!!
		
Click to expand...

Little old wine drinker me.
You gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Then she can step aside for someone else to get us out of the poverty her decision would leave us in.
		
Click to expand...




Mudball said:



			Line or Cliff 

T's naughty moment as a child.. was running thru a wheat field
T's naughty moment as a PM.. is running thru the field and off a cliff (along with 60m citizens)
		
Click to expand...

Oh ye of little faith!... I really donâ€™t know where this lack of confidence in Britain comes from? Our economy has outperformed expectations (and the rest of Europe) even with the uncertainty of Brexit hanging over us. Once the shackles are broken we will thrive.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Little old wine drinker me.
You gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em.
		
Click to expand...


Hope old â€œDrunckerâ€ gets sloshed and starts telling T what he really thinks of us! ðŸ˜‰


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## User62651 (Mar 21, 2019)

Tried to sign the revoke article 50 Govt run petition earlier, pointless yes but why not, it might let May know that no-one wants her bad deal if she can remove the blinkers for a second.
Funnily enough the email confirmation link never appeared and the site is down again, sabotaged or ill set up because her twice defeated WA 'deal' is just too wonderful and after yesterday's pathetic tv appeal she knows we're all with her and her deal, right?
Grayling's probably been tasked with it and installed a Commodore Vic20 to run it! 

Meantime Soubry advised by police not to go home as unsafe and MP's told to travel in groups. Thanks Theresa!


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Finding it hugely hilarious that despite that it should only be Ms May holding our attention... Folk can't help but bring Jezza into the conversation...
		
Click to expand...

Considering he is a major player in the game why shouldn't he be talked about? Why shouldn't we discuss the comments made by MP's and leaders of the other parties who had a lot to say about him walking out of a meeting.  Why can't we discuss the 6 tests he has brought up many times? Why can't we talk about what he says in PMQ's, or his visit to Brussels? Or why he took months to finally meet with May, after being invited, to discuss Brexit but he asked many times at PMQ's why May wouldn't meet him?

Oh thats right, he's the new working man's hero, Saint Jeremy of Corbyn.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Oh thats right, he's the new *retired* man's hero, Saint Jeremy of Corbyn.
		
Click to expand...

Fixed that for you


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Oh ye of little faith!... I really donâ€™t know where this lack of confidence in Britain comes from? Our economy has outperformed expectations (and the rest of Europe) even with the uncertainty of Brexit hanging over us. Once the shackles are broken we will thrive.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously . 
Letâ€™s cut off 27 of our most traded to partners
Letâ€™s make instrusty suffer with increased costs due to importing parts
Letâ€™s reduce employment by having less jobs as companies leave the country for other EU countries 
Letâ€™s see the cost of living rise whilst wages stagnate.
But hey at least we did it our way

Ffs


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## Fade and Die (Mar 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Seriously .
Letâ€™s cut off 27 of our most traded to partners
Letâ€™s make instrusty suffer with increased costs due to importing parts
Letâ€™s reduce employment by having less jobs as companies leave the country for other EU countries
Letâ€™s see the cost of living rise whilst wages stagnate.
But hey at least we did it our way

Ffs
		
Click to expand...


Thatâ€™s a pretty hysterical reply. Give yourself a slap, calm down and THINK. Once we leave with no deal itâ€™s a starting point. Itâ€™s not a crash, itâ€™s not a cliff edge, thatâ€™s media hysteria. Deals will be done, and quickly. Good deals for both sides. Thatâ€™s the way business works, it will always find a way. Remember we have what they want. Money.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Thatâ€™s a pretty hysterical reply. Give yourself a slap, calm down and THINK. Once we leave with no deal itâ€™s a starting point. Itâ€™s not a crash, itâ€™s not a cliff edge, thatâ€™s media hysteria. Deals will be done, and quickly. Good deals for both sides. Thatâ€™s the way business works, it will always find a way. Remember we have what they want. Money.
		
Click to expand...

These deals should have been done and in place before though thatâ€™s the whole issue.

A no deal will send us back into deep recession.

Nobody are winners.

If we had the deals in place and then left we would have stood much more of a chance

We are gambling with the future of an entire generation for the will of people who wonâ€™t be affected as much by the ripple affects

Anyoneâ€™s kids under 10 will be a forgotten generation. Little job prospects. There kids will have much more of a decent life again when we finally get going again.


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## IainP (Mar 21, 2019)

Beeb do seem to be talking about "no deal" more

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108812851072978944
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47551266

As with this whole saga, always tricky to choose who to listen to


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## Fade and Die (Mar 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			These deals should have been done and in place before though thatâ€™s the whole issue.

A no deal will send us back into deep recession.

Nobody are winners.

If we had the deals in place and then left we would have stood much more of a chance

We are gambling with the future of an entire generation for the will of people who wonâ€™t be affected as much by the ripple affects

Anyoneâ€™s kids under 10 will be a forgotten generation. Little job prospects. There kids will have much more of a decent life again when we finally get going again.
		
Click to expand...

It amazes me with all the information available that there are still people that hold these ridiculous views. Itâ€™s depressing really, I hoped for better.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 21, 2019)

The Brexit postponement plan being discussed here in Brussels - for hours longer than expected - has the potential to tear apart the government and Tory party, and Labour too. Because its explicit proviso that the UK has to decide by 11 April whether to participate in... 
negotiated or no-deal Brexit, MPs and ministers would have just under three weeks to decide what kind of Brexit (if any) they want, when they would want it and whether Theresa May should be evicted from 10 Downing Street before all the daffodils have gone. This is a Brussels... 
recipe for Westminster mayhem. Weâ€™ll see if it survives the night.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			It amazes me with all the information available that there are still people that hold these ridiculous views. Itâ€™s depressing really, I hoped for better.
		
Click to expand...

All the information from pro Brexiteers? Rather than listening to the goverment, the Bank of England, leading economists, heads of big businesses.. yeah ok


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 21, 2019)

The biggest problem here is:

SIL Hogie has not been on here for some time as he is down under

Imagine the chaos when he resurfaces!!


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			The biggest problem here is:

SIL Hogie has not been on here for some time as he is down under

Imagine the chaos when he resurfaces!!
		
Click to expand...

Thought he was in Brussels with his big placard


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			These deals should have been done and in place before though thatâ€™s the whole issue.

A no deal will send us back into deep recession.

Nobody are winners.

If we had the deals in place and then left we would have stood much more of a chance

We are gambling with the future of an entire generation for the will of people who wonâ€™t be affected as much by the ripple affects

Anyoneâ€™s kids under 10 will be a forgotten generation. Little job prospects. There kids will have much more of a decent life again when we finally get going again.
		
Click to expand...

Calm down dear, its a change in trading relations not the outset of the black death.  You post as if all trade with the EU would cease overnight and they would not buy or sell anything to us.  Forgotten generation, little job prospects, if you want to see what that's like then look no further than many EU member states where youth unemployment is at silly high rates.  Why do you think almost the entire youth of countries like Poland want to come and work in the UK, its because we have a thriving country that creates jobs and oppertunities they can't get elsewhere.  This country doesn't have a problem standing on its own feet as we are entrepenureal, something you dont understand by the sound of your negative outpourings.  Bet you're a hoot to employ.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*Calm down dear,* its a change in trading relations not the outset of the black death.  You post as if all trade with the EU would cease overnight and they would not buy or sell anything to us.  Forgotten generation, little job prospects, if you want to see what that's like then look no further than many EU member states where youth unemployment is at silly high rates.  Why do you think almost the entire youth of countries like Poland want to come and work in the UK, its because we have a thriving country that creates jobs and oppertunities they can't get elsewhere.  This country doesn't have a problem standing on its own feet as we are entrepenureal, something you dont understand by the sound of your negative outpourings.  *Bet you're a hoot to employ.*

Click to expand...

Post #7282. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Calm down dear, its a change in trading relations not the outset of the black death.  You post as if all trade with the EU would cease overnight and they would not buy or sell anything to us.  Forgotten generation, little job prospects, if you want to see what that's like then look no further than many EU member states where youth unemployment is at silly high rates.  Why do you think almost the entire youth of countries like Poland want to come and work in the UK, its because we have a thriving country that creates jobs and oppertunities they can't get elsewhere.  This country doesn't have a problem standing on its own feet as we are entrepenureal, something you dont understand by the sound of your negative outpourings.  Bet you're a hoot to employ.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m in a lucky position that brexit doesnâ€™t affect my job whatever the outcome. I feel for those in less stable environments. Like the Nissan factory or the Honda factory.. scare tactics? Nope actually happening. People loosing their jobs. All in the name of we wonâ€™t be told what to do? Pathetic


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## harpo_72 (Mar 21, 2019)

https://petition.parliament.uk/signatures/60260033/signed


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™m in a lucky position that brexit doesnâ€™t affect my job whatever the outcome. I feel for those in less stable environments. Like the Nissan factory or the Honda factory.. scare tactics? Nope actually happening. People loosing their jobs. All in the name of we wonâ€™t be told what to do? Pathetic
		
Click to expand...

Those two examples are not Brexit related and you know it.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Those two examples are not Brexit related and you know it.
		
Click to expand...

Funny that they came about after the brexit vote isnâ€™t it? They completely are brexit related. People are too worried what will happen when we leave that they donâ€™t want to risk their buisness 

If you canâ€™t see it thatâ€™s your issue not mine ðŸ‘Œ


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## Dando (Mar 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



https://petition.parliament.uk/signatures/60260033/signed

Click to expand...

Shouldnâ€™t that be in the random irritations thread


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## User62651 (Mar 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			It amazes me with all the information available that there are still people that hold these ridiculous views. Itâ€™s depressing really, I hoped for better.
		
Click to expand...

That's just wind up trolling. 
To be amazed about such views you'd have had to have been asleep the last 4 years. They're commonly held and must be a not unreasonable view else parliament would have grabbed No Deal with both hands long ago and not be stuck in deadlock.
Information available? - No-one has a crystal ball and this leave process is unprecedented so you know no better than anyone else what the future holds 'out', all rabble rousing speculation, a gamble, nothing more. The pre-ref claims of Leave of how easy this was going to be have been shown to be wrong so far, that's really all we have to go on so far.


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## PieMan (Mar 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



https://petition.parliament.uk/signatures/60260033/signed

Click to expand...

Excellent - only another 15.8 million signatures to go then to surpass the 17.4 million who voted to leave!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

[


pauljames87 said:



			Funny that they came about after the brexit vote isnâ€™t it? They completely are brexit related. People are too worried what will happen when we leave that they donâ€™t want to risk their buisness

If you canâ€™t see it thatâ€™s your issue not mine ðŸ‘Œ
		
Click to expand...

You have obviously not looked into the cases, never mind if you have convinced yourself this is what happened who am I to burst your bubble.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Post #7282. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!

Click to expand...

Very prophetic, I'm impressed, I really am   ðŸ™„


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

Sounds like the EU are softening their stance on setting conditions on an extension.   Reality of a no deal may be setting in and causing some to blink.


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## Beezerk (Mar 21, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Tried to sign the revoke article 50 Govt run petition earlier, pointless yes but why not, it might let May know that no-one wants her bad deal if she can remove the blinkers for a second.

Click to expand...

Yeah that's right, out of interest have you seen the map of those who've signed the petition? London city dwellers strike again.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 21, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Excellent - only another 15.8 million signatures to go then to surpass the 17.4 million who voted to leave!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€
		
Click to expand...

2 million now ... and no one has signed the one for â€œno dealâ€ or â€œTheresaâ€™s dealâ€


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## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Considering he is a major player in the game why shouldn't he be talked about? Why shouldn't we discuss the comments made by MP's and leaders of the other parties who had a lot to say about him walking out of a meeting.  Why can't we discuss the 6 tests he has brought up many times? Why can't we talk about what he says in PMQ's, or his visit to Brussels? Or why he took months to finally meet with May, after being invited, to discuss Brexit but he asked many times at PMQ's why May wouldn't meet him?

Oh thats right, he's the new working man's hero, Saint Jeremy of Corbyn.
		
Click to expand...

He is not this (former) working man's hero in anyway whatsoever... He could not have been more inconsequential in opposition if he tried... Giving as free a rein as he has to Ms May is it not more questionable on her non ability to deliver on the blue teams promises of exit...


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## spongebob59 (Mar 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			2 million now ... and no one has signed the one for â€œno dealâ€ or â€œTheresaâ€™s dealâ€
		
Click to expand...

The Russians must be working overtime


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## Fade and Die (Mar 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			2 million now ... and no one has signed the one for â€œno dealâ€ or â€œTheresaâ€™s dealâ€
		
Click to expand...

So 17million V 2 million and your wetting your pants about it??

â€œDemocracy in the UK all but deadâ€ said Donald Trump Jr. The most honest (and depressing) thing I have heard all week.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



*These deals should have been done and in place before though thatâ€™s the whole issue.*

A no deal will send us back into deep recession.

Nobody are winners.

If we had the deals in place and then left we would have stood much more of a chance

We are gambling with the future of an entire generation for the will of people who wonâ€™t be affected as much by the ripple affects

Anyoneâ€™s kids under 10 will be a forgotten generation. Little job prospects. There kids will have much more of a decent life again when we finally get going again.
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean the deals the EU stated couldn't be done before we left?


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			He is not this (former) working man's hero in anyway whatsoever... He could not have been more inconsequential in opposition if he tried... Giving as free a rein as he has to Ms May is it not more questionable on her non ability to deliver on the blue teams promises of exit...
		
Click to expand...

If May had a free reign her deal would be on the statute books now. And if Corbyn was inconsequential a number of Labour MP's wouldn't have jumped ship.


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## PieMan (Mar 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			2 million now ... and no one has signed the one for â€œno dealâ€ or â€œTheresaâ€™s dealâ€
		
Click to expand...

Looks like just the 374,000 have signed the 'Leave with no deal in March 2019' petition. ðŸ˜‰

Oh well Leave won the only vote that truly matters. ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2019)

Now it seems we get an extension to article 50  to 22 May as long as Mays deal is accepted next week. Otherwise its only to the 12th April. So, will Mr Bercow stand by his ruling or will there be a way of circumnavigating him.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2019)

Let's hope Bercow shows some spine.


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## Dando (Mar 22, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do you mean the deals the EU stated couldn't be done before we left?
		
Click to expand...

Trust you to come on here and state facts!


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## Dando (Mar 22, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			2 million now ... and no one has signed the one for â€œno dealâ€ or â€œTheresaâ€™s dealâ€
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do you mean the deals the EU stated couldn't be done before we left?
		
Click to expand...

You could have started a lot of the process and had a plan before triggering article 50

Set up a cross party team of negotiators
Identify who we want to do deals with
Figure out which EU laws need to convert to uk law before the exit

Once those sort of things are done then trigger a50 and have 2 years to actually make a go of it


Rather than trigger it, make a lot of noise for 18 months, panic and try and hash it out in the last 6 months


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2019)

The PM stated last night that the UK had voted for pain.
Is that correct leavers, did you cast your vote knowing that you were voting to damage the UK.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2019)

I see the German car manufacturers have finally come to our rescue and the EU have caved in, reopened the withdrawal agreement and have accepted all our demands on the backstop. Hurrah.

What's that, that isn't actually true?  All they've actually done is given us a couple more weeks to think if we really do want to shoot ourselves in the foot and leave with no deal?  Damn you BMW.


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## jp5 (Mar 22, 2019)

I'm sure the German car makers will come to our rescue any moment now...

Reckon last night is a sight we'll have to get used to - others making decisions on our behalf.


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## Mudball (Mar 22, 2019)

There are people who think we will thrive outside the EU - and we will do so in the long run. But what about the short - medium term? Unfortunately Brexit will hit people up and down the country (The PM admits we voted for pain).. unfortunately it will hit those who are already hurting even more. When the economy gets it hit, it does not matter which way you voted. When Honda, bmw, dyson, banks, medium biz move out/shut down people in the supply chain will be hit irrespective of their votes. The safest are those who have probably retired, paid off mortgages - though they might struggle to get onto NHS Ops or in home care as the workforce available is lower. 

Anyways I m sure folks will come around and drill holes in the above theory and also point to recent economic data which shows everything is rosy.  Some here may have never seen a Jobcenter or a food bank (and long may it stay that way). Setting aside our political and EU views.. have a read of this interesting one >> 
https://apple.news/AvC23f8FGSVW6YDWmQoaU3g


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## Beezerk (Mar 22, 2019)

^^^
I don't think anyone can drill holes into your theory as no one knows how it will pan out.
To stick your colours on one particular outcome at the minute is a tad foolish imo.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Nicely dodged the question.. almost Corbynisque ..
...
		
Click to expand...

No dodge at all! The question asked was (mayb not the precise words, but pretty close to 'Do you want to Leave the EU or Do You want to stay in te EU?'
So my reply is *the only* thing that determined from th majority that voted Leave. There were no ... and your reasons were.... boxes to tick!


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## Mudball (Mar 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No dodge at all! The question asked was (mayb not the precise words, but pretty close to 'Do you want to Leave the EU or Do You want to stay in te EU?'
So my reply is *the only* thing that determined from th majority that voted Leave. There were no ... and your reasons were.... boxes to tick!
		
Click to expand...


Fair point...  So would it be logical if we should now ask the Leavers How they want to leave aka.. Deal, No Deal, Swiss, Italian... etc?   maybe the second ref should only be 'How do we leave?'  and not give the public the chance to change their mind.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			...  So would it be logical if we should now ask the Leavers How they want to leave ....
		
Click to expand...

No!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			There are people who think we will thrive outside the EU - and we will do so in the long run. But what about the short - medium term? Unfortunately Brexit will hit people up and down the country (The PM admits we voted for pain).. unfortunately it will hit those who are already hurting even more. When the economy gets it hit, it does not matter which way you voted. When Honda, bmw, dyson, banks, medium biz move out/shut down people in the supply chain will be hit irrespective of their votes. The safest are those who have probably retired, paid off mortgages - though they might struggle to get onto NHS Ops or in home care as the workforce available is lower.

Anyways I m sure folks will come around and drill holes in the above theory and also point to recent economic data which shows everything is rosy.  Some here may have never seen a Jobcenter or a food bank (and long may it stay that way). Setting aside our political and EU views.. have a read of this interesting one >>
https://apple.news/AvC23f8FGSVW6YDWmQoaU3g

Click to expand...

What has that link got to do with Brexit. Its about household debt .  Trawling the net for articles like that to support your opinion is not being reasonable.


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## Mudball (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What has that link got to do with Brexit. Its about household debt .  Trawling the net for articles like that to support your opinion is not being reasonable.
		
Click to expand...

State of the nation while the Brexit circus is on..  And then Brexit happens..


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			State of the nation while the Brexit circus is on..  And then Brexit happens..
		
Click to expand...

Its possible to use the internet to find articles that support your opinion, I could easily find countless articles that would support an opinion suggesting the economy is in great shape, employment is the highest ever, people are flooding into the UK from abroad due to the great oppertunities they find here more than other EU countries offer.  You would no doubt suggest I was cherry picking articles to support my opinion.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its possible to use the internet to find articles that support your opinion,* I could easily find countless articles that would support an opinion suggesting the economy is in great shape, employment is the highest ever, people are flooding into the UK from abroad due to the great oppertunities they find here more than other EU countries offer*.  You would no doubt suggest I was cherry picking articles to support my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

So why would we want to leave the EU if everything is so rosy when we are in the EU?  All the things you state have happened under the supposed shackles of the EU. Why voluntarily introduce great uncertainty that just about every credible forecast has said would upset the current situation?  Seems a bit silly to me really.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its possible to use the internet to find articles that support your opinion, I could easily find countless articles that would support an opinion suggesting the economy is in great shape, employment is the highest ever, people are flooding into the UK from abroad due to the great oppertunities they find here more than other EU countries offer.  You would no doubt suggest I was cherry picking articles to support my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Employment is at the highest ever WHILST we are still in theEU

We also have more population than before there for more people to employ and break the records.

You can cherry pick facts to try and shoe horn into your argument if you want..


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So why would we want to leave the EU if everything is so rosy when we are in the EU?  All the things you state have happened under the supposed shackles of the EU. Why voluntarily introduce great uncertainty that just about every credible forecast has said would upset the current situation?  Seems a bit silly to me really.
		
Click to expand...

The EU doesn't create business and jobs here, they are in the main created as small to medium enterprises by ordinary people. Its nothing much to do with our EU membership, if it was then why are all the member countries not flourishing at the same rate.

Anyhow, you are ignoring my point in that post which was to point out posting a link from the net to support our opinions does not mean we are right.  Anyone can find a link to support just about any view. 

Oh! and I was right that I would be accused of cherry picking to support my opinion.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Employment is at the highest ever WHILST we are still in theEU

We also have more population than before there for more people to employ and break the records.

You can cherry pick facts to try and shoe horn into your argument if you want..
		
Click to expand...

Woooosssssh !!!!   Either you are not reading my post or you are ignoring the point I make. Read it again carefully, especially where I used those points to explain anyone can find links to spurious editorials in an attempt to prop up a poorly thought out theory.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Either you are not reading my post or you are ignoring the point I make. Read it again carefully, especially where I used those points to explain anyone can find links to spurious editorials in an attempt to prop up a poorly thought out theory.
		
Click to expand...

Yet you use facts that say with the economy in a great position whilst we are in the EU that leaving it will be fine? Ignoring the fact that the economy is so healthy because of EU membership not in spite of it.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet you use facts that say with the economy in a great position whilst we are in the EU that leaving it will be fine? Ignoring the fact that the economy is so healthy because of EU membership not in spite of it.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing  to do with membership of the EU.  If that was the case all member states would be thriving.   If I use FACTS to support my view they must be FACTUAL.

You still didn't read it and take it in ,did you?


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## IanM (Mar 22, 2019)

Hand over contro


pauljames87 said:



			YIgnoring the fact that the economy is so healthy because of EU membership not in spite of it.
		
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Being out of the Euro is a huge factor, an opt out we will lose soon.....among others!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Nothing  to do with membership of the EU.  If that was the case all member states would be thriving.   If I use FACTS to support my view they must be FACTUAL.
		
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How about the fact that Nissan are pulling out because of brexit

Sony and Panasonic have moved buisness because of brexit?

Oh but ofc that doesnâ€™t matter because it doesnâ€™t support your one sided view point


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

IanM said:



			Hand over contro


Being out of the Euro is a huge factor, an opt out we will lose soon.....among others! 

Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s again not true and has been completely proven to be a lie


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet you use facts that say with the economy in a great position whilst we are in the EU that leaving it will be fine? Ignoring the fact that the economy is so healthy because of EU membership not in spite of it.
		
Click to expand...

The EU as a whole comes in at 26 on the world's table of employment rates. 4 of the first 6 countries are non-EU. The UK sits at 12th in the table, and 50% of the first 14 countries are non-EU.

In 30th place, France.
In 31st place, Belgium.
In 32nd place, Spain.
In 35th place, Italy.
In 36th place, Greece.

I'm not sure either way if EU membership is the great definer... I'm sure Greece, Italy, Spain, Belgium and France might think otherwise.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			How about the fact that Nissan are pulling out because of brexit
		
Click to expand...

*CEO Takahiro Hachigo said the decision was nothing to do with Brexit and was timed to the end of the current Civic's lifecycle.  *



pauljames87 said:



			Sony and Panasonic have moved buisness because of brexit?
		
Click to expand...

* ''Sony won't shift personnel and operations from the existing UK operations.''*

*''No Panasonic UK business operations will be affected by the EU headquarters move,"*



pauljames87 said:



			Oh but ofc that doesnâ€™t matter because it doesnâ€™t support your one sided view point
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn't you say that everyone has a one-sided viewpoint?


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## IanM (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Thatâ€™s again not true and has been completely proven to be a lie
		
Click to expand...

Um, not it isnt.  

And...Germany now in recession.  The car industrty reps making loud noises about loss of revenue from UK business if trade impacted.  (but of course that doesnt count)

Hobbit could have used youth unemployement as the indicator... and watch what happens.

But, you lot still talking trade when there issue is Federalism.  Cold hard Federalism.  That's been the plan since the 60s...thinnly disguised through the Common Market. morphing via its various iterations...the speeches by the various "presidents" at the end of last year finally laying that lie to rest... 

In golfing terms, beware the guy arguing constantly that you made an incorrect drop, while he has has the"magic pencil" at work for several holes! 

Where's the nice chap who bet me we would leave on No Deal on March 29th....  has he got his cheque book ready?


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

bobmac said:



*CEO Takahiro Hachigo said the decision was nothing to do with Brexit and was timed to the end of the current Civic's lifecycle.  *

Click to expand...

Further evidenced by Honda's decision to close their other Civic production line, which isn't in the EU.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Further evidenced by Honda's decision to close their other Civic production line, which isn't in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Just a point that Nissan donâ€™t make the Civic 


IanM said:



			Um, not it isnt. 

And...Germany now in recession.  The car industrty reps making loud noises about loss of revenue from UK business if trade impacted.  (but of course that doesnt count)

Hobbit could have used youth unemployement as the indicator... and watch what happens.

But, you lot still talking trade when there issue is Federalism.  Cold hard Federalism.  That's been the plan since the 60s...thinnly disguised through the Common Market. morphing via its various iterations...the speeches by the various "presidents" at the end of last year finally laying that lie to rest...

In golfing terms, beware the guy arguing constantly that you made an incorrect drop, while he has has the"magic pencil" at work for several holes! 

Where's the nice chap who bet me we would leave on No Deal on March 29th....  has he got his cheque book ready? 

Click to expand...

Sorry but it has been proven to be a lie by the leave campaign. 

If we stayed in the eu we would not need to adopt the euro. That was a myth


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Just a point that Nissan donâ€™t make the Civic
		
Click to expand...

Ah, so you're only picking the ones that suit your argument... that's clever?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Ah, so you're only picking the ones that suit your argument... that's clever?
		
Click to expand...

Nope just correcting that Honda make the Civic not Nissan. 
What has Nissan said about it?


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Nope just correcting that Honda make the Civic not Nissan.
What has Nissan said about it?
		
Click to expand...

If you go back far enough in the thread you'll see a few pages about the GLOBAL shrinkage in car manufacturing, including a 26% shrinkage in the USA whose manufacturing outside of the automotive industry has grown 17%.

People shouting the Brexit is leading to a significant loss in automotive manufacturing is to a large extent disingenuous.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Nope just correcting that Honda make the Civic not Nissan.
What has Nissan said about it?
		
Click to expand...

Nissan is *considering* plans to cut back production line shifts at its Sunderland plant in the latest setback to the UK car industry, Sky News understands.

*If *the Japanese carmaker goes ahead with the plan it *could* result in 400 jobs being threatened, Sky sources say.


The Nissan proposals would see the number of shifts on a production line making Qashqai and Leaf vehicles reduced from three to two.

A Nissan spokesman told Sky News that it was *"rumour or speculation*".


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			You could have started a lot of the process and had a plan before triggering article 50

Set up a cross party team of negotiators
Identify who we want to do deals with
Figure out which EU laws need to convert to uk law before the exit

Once those sort of things are done then trigger a50 and have 2 years to actually make a go of it


Rather than trigger it, make a lot of noise for 18 months, panic and try and hash it out in the last 6 months
		
Click to expand...

I couldnâ€™t agree more but just because I voted to leave doesnâ€™t make me personally responsible for Parliamentâ€™s utter ineptitude.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I couldnâ€™t agree more but just because I voted to leave doesnâ€™t make me personally responsible for Parliamentâ€™s utter ineptitude.
		
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I wouldnâ€™t say or think you are responsible. Iâ€™d say parliament are at fault for a bit respect the issues that would make people want to leave and b not respecting the campaign.. making it all about fear and racism if you voted leave


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2019)

IanM said:



			Hand over contro


Being out of the Euro is a huge factor, an opt out we will lose soon.....among others! 

Click to expand...

That's not true, just scare mongering


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## GB72 (Mar 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			That's not true, just scare mongering
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, if you read the full breakdown of the agreement in question, we would actually gain more veto rights and the right to opt out of any policy that we did not wish to be part of. There is no obligation to joing the Euro in 2020, no compulsory european army and no obligation to make systems of european law the highest authority in each country.


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Indeed, if you read the full breakdown of the agreement in question, we would actually gain more veto rights and the right to opt out of any policy that we did not wish to be part of. There is no obligation to joing the Euro in 2020, no compulsory european army and no obligation to make systems of european law the highest authority in each country.
		
Click to expand...

Yep just another lie permeated by the leave campaign .


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is one version of events!
		
Click to expand...

Is the actual version of events admitted to by Corbyn himself.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2019)

IanM said:



			Um, not it isnt. 

And...Germany now in recession.  The car industrty reps making loud noises about loss of revenue from UK business if trade impacted.  (but of course that doesnt count)

Hobbit could have used youth unemployement as the indicator... and watch what happens.

But, you lot still talking trade when there issue is Federalism.  Cold hard Federalism.  That's been the plan since the 60s...thinnly disguised through the Common Market. morphing via its various iterations...the speeches by the various "presidents" at the end of last year finally laying that lie to rest...

In golfing terms, beware the guy arguing constantly that you made an incorrect drop, while he has has the"magic pencil" at work for several holes! 

*Where's the nice chap who bet me we would leave on No Deal on March 29th....  has he got his cheque book ready?* 

Click to expand...

I bet that Tmay would have her deal passed by the 29th March, not a No Deal.  Still plenty of time to go yet. Plus I haven't had a cheque book since 1995.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The Russians must be working overtime 

Click to expand...

Not necessary, set your children up with email addresses and they all get a vote in the petition.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Indeed, if you read the full breakdown of the agreement in question, we would actually gain more veto rights and the right to opt out of any policy that we did not wish to be part of. There is no obligation to joing the Euro in 2020, no compulsory european army and no obligation to make systems of european law the highest authority in each country.
		
Click to expand...

European law is already the highest authority in each member country.


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## GB72 (Mar 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yep just another lie permeated by the leave campaign .
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, I am tryig to stay relatively neutral in this as, despite being a remainer, I appreciate that we lost the referendum. That said, I also cannot understand how it is not seen as possible that the view of the country as a whole has not changed over nearly a 3 year period now that the facts are clearer. This is a massive step to take and not one that can be fully reversed (many of our priveleges would not be available should we look to rejoin at a later date) and so it would only seem prudent to be very sure. I would expect the same calls from the other side should remain have won and then there be steps for greater european integration taken at a later stage. I appreciate that the 3 million signatures is not the same as those who voted in a referendum but but in comparision to other poles, this is massive. 

If to leave is still the right thing to do and still the will of the people then a second referendum would clearly show that and the door would be open for a no deal brexit or whatever is deemed necessary but I do feel that there is a need to be sure of the result.


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## GB72 (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			European law is already the highest authority in each member country.
		
Click to expand...

It is slightly more nuanced than that with european law having ti be implemented into national law and no rights for the european courts to strike out national laws. There is a general agreement not to adopt laws that are incompatable with european law.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2019)

Interesting, seems the government are taking charge of the process to get indicative votes before it is taken away from them and out of their control.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109078676946251776


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## GB72 (Mar 22, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Interesting, seems the government are taking charge of the process to get indicative votes before it is taken away from them and out of their control.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109078676946251776

Click to expand...

Should have been done ages ago. Why try and negotiate a deal when you do jot know what parliament will agree to. If we had a unified stance on day one of the negotiations things could be so different.


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## drdel (Mar 22, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Excellent - only another 15.8 million signatures to go then to surpass the 17.4 million who voted to leave!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€
		
Click to expand...

But we wouldn't want to stop hysteria !! Because

We're all going to starve - yet the biggest percentage of out food imports do NOT come from the EU countries.
Our cars will be more expensive - but many BMW's and Mercs models are built in USA, Mexico and the last time I looked Japan and Korea were in the Far East.
We can't buy TVs, White goods etc . But vast proportion of electronics and stuff come in from China.


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## drdel (Mar 22, 2019)

There are structural global changes in the world economy as re-alignment takes place around energy, raw materials and environmental pressures. China, India, South America and Africa are changing fast and will open new markets. The EU project is outdated having developed from a political idea after WW2 because of the need to keep Germany and France locked together and then help the German steel industry. It is now just a restrictive trading bloc which simply takes money from the wealth creating members and gives it to the uncompetitive sectors/members (e.g French agriculture etc).  In recent years they have kept demand alive by giving away money (QE) but now the receivers (France, Italy, Greece, Spain et al) are in so much debt and uncompetitive they can't possible earn/sell enough to pay the interest let alone pay any capital it back.

The EU market is shrinking the UK needs to break out, noises in German suggest they can't afford the EU cost. 

Remaining would be the most stupid and shortsighted thing the UK could possible do. The UK must leave, any short term 'pain' (which I don't accept will be major) will be worth it otherwise the UK will be soaked with a share of EU debt and become poorer and  evermore growth restrained.


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## GB72 (Mar 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			There are structural global changes in the world economy as re-alignment takes place around energy, raw materials and environmental pressures. China, India, South America and Africa are changing fast and will open new markets. The EU project is outdated having developed from a political idea after WW2 because of the need to keep Germany and France locked together and then help the German steel industry. It is now just a restrictive trading bloc which simply takes money from the wealth creating members and gives it to the uncompetitive sectors/members (e.g French agriculture etc).  In recent years they have kept demand alive by giving away money (QE) but now the receivers (France, Italy, Greece, Spain et al) are in so much debt and uncompetitive they can't possible earn/sell enough to pay the interest let alone pay any capital it back.

The EU market is shrinking the UK needs to break out, noises in German suggest they can't afford the EU cost. 

Remaining would be the most stupid and shortsighted thing the UK could possible do. The UK must leave, any short term 'pain' (which I don't accept will be major) will be worth it otherwise the UK will be soaked with a share of EU debt and become poorer and  evermore growth restrained.
		
Click to expand...

Very good points well made. More well argued opinions like this being made would help both sides understand each other no end. No need to resort to taunting and vitriol. As I said, not my opinion on Brexit but has given me issues to consider.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

IanM said:



			...
Being out of the Euro is a huge factor, an opt out we will lose soon.....among others! 

Click to expand...

I'm a bit confused what you mean.

Are you suggesting that we should stay in the EU because by doing so we have the option to opt out of it?

Or are you saying that we'll have to join the Euro?


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## GB72 (Mar 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm a bit confused what you mean.

Are you suggesting that we should stay in the EU because by doing so we have the option to opt out of it?

Or are you saying that we'll have to join the Euro?
		
Click to expand...

There was a garbage story that  part of a recent agreement, cannot remember the exact one off my head, was that we had agreed to join the euro by 2020 and centralise european banking to Frankfurt. Load of rubbish


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

GB72 said:



			There was a garbage story that  part of a recent agreement, cannot remember the exact one off my head, was that we had agreed to join the euro by 2020 and centralise european banking to Frankfurt. Load of rubbish
		
Click to expand...

Yet some still believe it, much like some people still believe the money we save can go to the nhs etc etc

Once itâ€™s out there itâ€™s out there forever even though itâ€™s false


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			...
What has Nissan said about it?
		
Click to expand...

That their decision won't affect the Sunderland plant - i'll continue to make the vehicle it currently does.

Xtrail production is actually moving back to Japan, the result, imo, of the FTA with the EU. https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-blamed-for-nissan-manufacturing-u-turn/


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## IanM (Mar 22, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Should have been done ages ago. Why try and negotiate a deal when you do jot know what parliament will agree to. If we had a unified stance on day one of the negotiations things could be so different.
		
Click to expand...

Therin lies the problem.  Lots of MPs will only accept staying in.   Second Referendum was planned the morning after the first Vote.


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## drdel (Mar 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That their decision won't affect the Sunderland plant - i'll continue to make the vehicle it currently does.

Xtrail production is actually moving back to Japan, the result, imo, of the FTA with the EU. https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-blamed-for-nissan-manufacturing-u-turn/

Click to expand...

Toyota have apparently agreed to build cars for Suzuki in UK. Global car manufacturing is restructuring because of worldwide over capacity not Brexit.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Agreed, I am tryig to stay relatively neutral in this as, despite being a remainer, I appreciate that we lost the referendum. That said, I also cannot understand how it is not seen as possible that the view of the country as a whole has not changed over nearly a 3 year period now that the facts are clearer. This is a massive step to take and not one that can be fully reversed (many of our priveleges would not be available should we look to rejoin at a later date) and so it would only seem prudent to be very sure. I would expect the same calls from the other side should remain have won and then there be steps for greater european integration taken at a later stage. I appreciate that the 3 million signatures is not the same as those who voted in a referendum but but in comparision to other poles, this is massive.

If to leave is still the right thing to do and still the will of the people then a second referendum would clearly show that and the door would be open for a no deal brexit or whatever is deemed necessary but I do feel that there is a need to be sure of the result.
		
Click to expand...

I'm in the same position, though my view is to implement the Referendum decision.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

IanM said:



			Therin lies the problem.  Lots of MPs will only accept staying in.   Second Referendum was planned the morning after the first Vote.
		
Click to expand...

Whether a remainer or a leaver it appears that our vote will become worthless. Only the votes of the 650 will now count.


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## drdel (Mar 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Whether a remainer or a leaver it appears that our vote will become worthless. Only the votes of the 650 will now count.
		
Click to expand...

Which based on their collective demonstration of mega-idiocy is pretty worrying !!!


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

EU forces choice of their political lives on MPs
ROBERT PESTON PESTON'S POLITICS

After yesterdayâ€™s historic negotiations between EU leaders here in Brussels â€“ while Theresa May was out of the room â€“ here is what we now know about Brexit.
We are not leaving the EU on 29 March 2019, the Brexit day that was supposedly set in stone.
We may yet leave on 22 May this year, but only if this week MPs finally â€“ at a third time of asking, and probably on Tuesday â€“ vote for Theresa Mayâ€™s widely derided Brexit plan.
We could leave without a Brexit deal on the new Brexit day, 12 April â€“ if the PMâ€™s vote is lost.
Or we could leave at an undetermined future date with a different Brexit plan, or hold a referendum, or even revoke our decision to leave if by 12 April MPs coalesce around some other route than a no-deal Brexit in just the next three weeks, and if they are prepared for the UK to participate in European Parliamentary elections the following week.
All clear to you about whatâ€™s going to happen?
No of course not.
What was settled by Macron, Merkel, Tusk et al was the ultimate diplomatic humiliation for the UK.
Because more than 1000 days after the UK voted to leave the UK, we are in practice very little nearer knowing what that vote actually means.
If I were to call this a dogâ€™s breakfast I would be insulting dogâ€™s breakfasts. There may not be a pooch on the planet that would swallow this indignity.
But the prime minister has and we are.
So what happens now?
Well, nobody knows â€“ probably not even God. Because there are too many imponderables.
If the decision were settled just on where the Brexit preferences of MPs probably lie, the UK would probably pivot to the softest Brexit â€“ the so-called Common Market 2.0 â€“ and go for an undetermined but finite further Brexit extension.
But that route probably blows up the Tory Party completely and would also see a lesser haemorrhaging of Labour: the Tories could split right down the middle, between the Brexiter purists of the ERG and the rest.
And for any of this to happen, backbenchers â€“ led by Boles, Cooper, Letwin et al â€“ would in the coming days have to completely take control of the process of shaping and delivering Brexit from Theresa May and the government.
So there we have it. MPs have a weekend to decide whether to initiate civil war against Theresa May and the government and instigate a once-in-a-century reconfiguration of the structure of political parties.
As for whether Theresa May can actually survive as PM more than another few minutes having set up this titanic of all parliament struggles, that seems almost a side issue now.
Her fate will presumably almost be sealed this week, if she loses the vote on her deal, and then completely on 12 April if MPs have decided to opt for a lengthy Brexit extension â€“ since she said unequivocally in the Commons on Wednesday that she was â€œnot prepared to delay Brexit any longer than 30 Juneâ€.
But funnily enough, whether she stays or goes seems fairly trivial compared to all the other nation-determining stuff.
Source: ITV News

Anyone for a full revocation of Article 50 by the end of April? Maybe the only way the Tories and Labour can survive intact is to give the decision to the people.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Whether a remainer or a leaver it appears that our vote will become worthless. Only the votes of the 650 will now count.
		
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Surely itâ€™s our votes that have put them in that position?


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## drdel (Mar 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			EU forces choice of their political lives on MPs
ROBERT PESTON PESTON'S POLITICS

After yesterdayâ€™s historic negotiations between EU leaders here in Brussels â€“ while Theresa May was out of the room â€“ here is what we now know about Brexit.
We are not leaving the EU on 29 March 2019, the Brexit day that was supposedly set in stone.
We may yet leave on 22 May this year, but only if this week MPs finally â€“ at a third time of asking, and probably on Tuesday â€“ vote for Theresa Mayâ€™s widely derided Brexit plan.
We could leave without a Brexit deal on the new Brexit day, 12 April â€“ if the PMâ€™s vote is lost.
Or we could leave at an undetermined future date with a different Brexit plan, or hold a referendum, or even revoke our decision to leave if by 12 April MPs coalesce around some other route than a no-deal Brexit in just the next three weeks, and if they are prepared for the UK to participate in European Parliamentary elections the following week.
All clear to you about whatâ€™s going to happen?
No of course not.
What was settled by Macron, Merkel, Tusk et al was the ultimate diplomatic humiliation for the UK.
Because more than 1000 days after the UK voted to leave the UK, we are in practice very little nearer knowing what that vote actually means.
If I were to call this a dogâ€™s breakfast I would be insulting dogâ€™s breakfasts. There may not be a pooch on the planet that would swallow this indignity.
But the prime minister has and we are.
So what happens now?
Well, nobody knows â€“ probably not even God. Because there are too many imponderables.
If the decision were settled just on where the Brexit preferences of MPs probably lie, the UK would probably pivot to the softest Brexit â€“ the so-called Common Market 2.0 â€“ and go for an undetermined but finite further Brexit extension.
But that route probably blows up the Tory Party completely and would also see a lesser haemorrhaging of Labour: the Tories could split right down the middle, between the Brexiter purists of the ERG and the rest.
And for any of this to happen, backbenchers â€“ led by Boles, Cooper, Letwin et al â€“ would in the coming days have to completely take control of the process of shaping and delivering Brexit from Theresa May and the government.
So there we have it. MPs have a weekend to decide whether to initiate civil war against Theresa May and the government and instigate a once-in-a-century reconfiguration of the structure of political parties.
As for whether Theresa May can actually survive as PM more than another few minutes having set up this titanic of all parliament struggles, that seems almost a side issue now.
Her fate will presumably almost be sealed this week, if she loses the vote on her deal, and then completely on 12 April if MPs have decided to opt for a lengthy Brexit extension â€“ since she said unequivocally in the Commons on Wednesday that she was â€œnot prepared to delay Brexit any longer than 30 Juneâ€.
But funnily enough, whether she stays or goes seems fairly trivial compared to all the other nation-determining stuff.
Source: ITV News

Anyone for a full revocation of Article 50 by the end of April? Maybe the only way the Tories and Labour can survive intact is to give the decision to the people.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly proof that about the only thing committees can decide is the date of the next meeting - even if it isn't needed ! To paraphrase Aristotle  '... don't give the power to the soldiers - they won't know what to do with it...'


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Should have been done ages ago. Why try and negotiate a deal when you do jot know what parliament will agree to. If we had a unified stance on day one of the negotiations things could be so different.
		
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While I agree in principle, this could well result in something I abhor - A referendum being repeated - with no change to the 'deal' on offer/question being asked - until 'the right result' is obtained!


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely itâ€™s our votes that have put them in that position?
		
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Surely our vote was to tell them what we wanted them to do which they have never, as a majority wanted to carry out.


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## GB72 (Mar 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree in principle, this could well result in something I abhor - A referendum being repeated - with no change to the 'deal' on offer/question being asked - until 'the right result' is obtained!
		
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I am more leaning towards putting the deals to a referendum, no option to remain, to break the deadlock


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Surely our vote was to tell them what we wanted them to do which they have never, as a majority wanted to carry out.
		
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Which vote though? The country wide one that voted out or the GE afterwards one were some constituencies, who over-whelmingly voted remain, voted in a MP to represent their views?


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

GB72 said:



			I am more leaning towards putting the deals to a referendum, no option to remain, to break the deadlock
		
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That would work for me! But I doubt there's actually time to get it done!


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## spongebob59 (Mar 22, 2019)

Went past Manston today, thier in full swing for operation stack/bloc, whatever its called !


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## Mudball (Mar 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That would work for me! But I doubt there's actually time to get it done!
		
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When i suggested that a few posts ago, you said you did not agree.. did you change your mind since breakfast


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## Mudball (Mar 22, 2019)

I know the Petition should be in the random irritatant thread by Remoaners section...   But amongst the many petition tracking sites (which help to avoid the actual site crashing), this is quite a good one, as it puts the constituencies in order of how many signatures they have. What does your constituency say? has it changed? . https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I know the Petition should be in the random irritatant thread by Remoaners section...   But amongst the many petition tracking sites (which help to avoid the actual site crashing), this is quite a good one, as it puts the constituencies in order of how many signatures they have. What does your constituency say? has it changed? . https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584

Click to expand...

How can you know if it's changed with such a small representation of the referendum vote.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Which vote though? The country wide one that voted out or the GE afterwards one were some constituencies, who over-whelmingly voted remain, voted in a MP to represent their views?
		
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Was this the GE were the major parties had on their manifesto that they were honouring the referendum. So the electorate understood they were voting for their MPs who were supposed to be committed to leave. If you are trying to say that the over-whelming of those who voted in the GE voted remain I'd like to know which Diane Abbot school of maths worked that out and if true the Liberals would be the main party.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			EU forces choice of their political lives on MPs
ROBERT PESTON PESTON'S POLITICS

After yesterdayâ€™s historic negotiations between EU leaders here in Brussels â€“ while Theresa May was out of the room â€“ here is what we now know about Brexit.
We are not leaving the EU on 29 March 2019, the Brexit day that was supposedly set in stone.
We may yet leave on 22 May this year, but only if this week MPs finally â€“ at a third time of asking, and probably on Tuesday â€“ vote for Theresa Mayâ€™s widely derided Brexit plan.
We could leave without a Brexit deal on the new Brexit day, 12 April â€“ if the PMâ€™s vote is lost.
Or we could leave at an undetermined future date with a different Brexit plan, or hold a referendum, or even revoke our decision to leave if by 12 April MPs coalesce around some other route than a no-deal Brexit in just the next three weeks, and if they are prepared for the UK to participate in European Parliamentary elections the following week.
All clear to you about whatâ€™s going to happen?
No of course not.
What was settled by Macron, Merkel, Tusk et al was the ultimate diplomatic humiliation for the UK.
Because more than 1000 days after the UK voted to leave the UK, we are in practice very little nearer knowing what that vote actually means.
If I were to call this a dogâ€™s breakfast I would be insulting dogâ€™s breakfasts. There may not be a pooch on the planet that would swallow this indignity.
But the prime minister has and we are.
So what happens now?
Well, nobody knows â€“ probably not even God. Because there are too many imponderables.
If the decision were settled just on where the Brexit preferences of MPs probably lie, the UK would probably pivot to the softest Brexit â€“ the so-called Common Market 2.0 â€“ and go for an undetermined but finite further Brexit extension.
But that route probably blows up the Tory Party completely and would also see a lesser haemorrhaging of Labour: the Tories could split right down the middle, between the Brexiter purists of the ERG and the rest.
And for any of this to happen, backbenchers â€“ led by Boles, Cooper, Letwin et al â€“ would in the coming days have to completely take control of the process of shaping and delivering Brexit from Theresa May and the government.
So there we have it. MPs have a weekend to decide whether to initiate civil war against Theresa May and the government and instigate a once-in-a-century reconfiguration of the structure of political parties.
As for whether Theresa May can actually survive as PM more than another few minutes having set up this titanic of all parliament struggles, that seems almost a side issue now.
Her fate will presumably almost be sealed this week, if she loses the vote on her deal, and then completely on 12 April if MPs have decided to opt for a lengthy Brexit extension â€“ since she said unequivocally in the Commons on Wednesday that she was â€œnot prepared to delay Brexit any longer than 30 Juneâ€.
But funnily enough, whether she stays or goes seems fairly trivial compared to all the other nation-determining stuff.
Source: ITV News

Anyone for a full revocation of Article 50 by the end of April? Maybe the only way the Tories and Labour can survive intact is to give the decision to the people.
		
Click to expand...

As ever, Preston is spot on!

Shambles - but that was ALWAYS the EU Commission's intention!


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			When i suggested that a few posts ago, you said you did not agree.. did you change your mind since breakfast 

Click to expand...

I don't believe you had eliminated the Remain option! If you had,...my bad!


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## IanM (Mar 22, 2019)

Macron's speech today quite clear about the Federalist intent....................... but keep talking "deals" eh?


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How can you know if it's changed with such a small representation of the referendum vote.
		
Click to expand...

Valid point.

When you think how emotive the issue is, yet less than 10% of those that voted in June '16 have signed it - and they don't even have to go out in the rain to do it. Hell of  number for a gov.uk petition but hardly indicative.

Not to worry, the MP's will sell out regardless next week


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I know the Petition should be in the random irritatant thread by Remoaners section...   But amongst the many petition tracking sites (which help to avoid the actual site crashing), this is quite a good one, as it puts the constituencies in order of how many signatures they have. What does your constituency say? has it changed? . https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584

Click to expand...

I presume then that the rest of voters in those constituencies are leavers then.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Was this the GE were the major parties had on their manifesto that they were honouring the referendum. So the electorate understood they were voting for their MPs who were supposed to be committed to leave. If you are trying to say that the over-whelming of those who voted in the GE voted remain I'd like to know which Diane Abbot school of maths worked that out and if true the Liberals would be the main party.
		
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No, I voted to Leave and want out and your post is very simplistic saying our vote has become worthless.
Isnâ€™t that how Democracy works? We have our say then leave it to our elected representatives.
We canâ€™t pick and choose the bits of Democracy we are happy with and when we want it used.
Otherwise we are back to the old, everyone should accept the deal because it was the only one on offer, regardless of the fact it was a bad deal.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How can you know if it's changed with such a small representation of the referendum vote.
		
Click to expand...

You surely know that it really only takes a 'tiny' representation to actually produce a valid survey!

However, this IS NOT a valid survey! It's a load of very angry remainers who want to overturn the original result. Even though I voted Remain, this action is abhorrent to my sense of democracy!


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## GB72 (Mar 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, I voted to Leave and want out and your post is very simplistic saying our vote has become worthless.
Isnâ€™t that how Democracy works? We have our say then leave it to our elected representatives.
We canâ€™t pick and choose the bits of Democracy we are happy with and when we want it used.
Otherwise we are back to the old, everyone should accept the deal because it was the only one on offer, regardless of the fact it was a bad deal.
		
Click to expand...

So by that reckoning, if the shoe was on the other foot and legislation were introduced to federalise europe, you would not be asking f9r a referendum to ensure that remained the will of the people.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Was this the GE were the major parties had on their manifesto that they were honouring the referendum. So the electorate understood they were voting for their MPs who were supposed to be committed to leave. If you are trying to say that the over-whelming of those who voted in the GE voted remain I'd like to know which Diane Abbot school of maths worked that out and if true the Liberals would be the main party.
		
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H'mm. If you check out Labour's 2017 Manifesto, there's a distinct loophole!


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, I voted to Leave and want out and your post is very simplistic saying our vote has become worthless.
Isnâ€™t that how Democracy works? We have our say then leave it to our elected representatives.
We canâ€™t pick and choose the bits of Democracy we are happy with and when we want it used.
Otherwise we are back to the old, everyone should accept the deal because it was the only one on offer, regardless of the fact it was a bad deal.
		
Click to expand...

I voted to leave, I didn't vote for a deal. If our politicians come up with a deal that could pass through Parliament I would accept it good or bad because that's their job. They haven't  been able to agree the deal that has been offered by the EU which, in my simplistic way, suggest, to complete the Democratic will of the people, we have to leave with no deal and then negotiate as a non EU country.

Many interim agreements have been agreed regardless of us leaving with or without a deal. Never make the headlines and rarely highlighted in Parliament.

So this is the reasoning I have come to about the worth of our votes as everything is n place for the politicians to carry out the result of the referendum yet they are now openly talking about us staying in the EU.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm. If you check out Labour's 2017 Manifesto, there's a distinct loophole!
		
Click to expand...

There always is when the national executive are involved.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

GB72 said:



			So by that reckoning, if the shoe was on the other foot and legislation were introduced to federalise europe, you would not be asking f9r a referendum to ensure that remained the will of the people.
		
Click to expand...

There was legislation to federalise the EU (not europe) and John Major accepted it without a referendum.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...your post is very simplistic saying our vote has become worthless....
		
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And, imo, he's correct!


pauldj42 said:



			...
Isnâ€™t that how Democracy works? We have our say then leave it to our elected representatives.
....
		
Click to expand...

In the case of a Referendum - which was subsequently deemed 'binding' No! Part 1 is correct. But Part 2 needs to have 'to impliment our decision' added!


pauldj42 said:



			...
We canâ€™t pick and choose the bits of Democracy we are happy with and when we want it used.
Otherwise we are back to the old, everyone should accept the deal because it was the only one on offer, regardless of the fact it was a bad deal.
		
Click to expand...

But there is an alternative - No Deal! And that's entirely why we elect Representatives - to implement the option(s) in their manifestos - and anything else that may arise after appropriate 'polling' if necessary - because that's their area of 'expertise'.
We are quite ebtitled to be upset when they make a hash of it, but that's how (UK) democracy works!


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			There always is when the national executive are involved.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe, but that wasn't what I was referring to! Did you actually check it out? I'm inclinrd to doubt that you did!


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, I voted to Leave and want out and your post is very simplistic saying our vote has become worthless.
Isnâ€™t that how Democracy works? We have our say then leave it to our elected representatives.
We canâ€™t pick and choose the bits of Democracy we are happy with and when we want it used.
Otherwise we are back to the old, everyone should accept the deal because it was the only one on offer, regardless of the fact it was a bad deal.
		
Click to expand...

In theory, you're right. However, Parliament gave the issue to the electorate. But even then they had the opportunity to take back control but decided to invoke Article 50. In both cases Parliament voted massively in favour. Now that reality is hitting home they don't know whether to stick, twist or go and sit on the bog. What a dire bunch of worthless troughing toads the majority of them are.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2019)

GB72 said:



			So by that reckoning, if the shoe was on the other foot and legislation were introduced to federalise europe, you would not be asking f9r a referendum to ensure that remained the will of the people.
		
Click to expand...

Ifs, buts and maybeâ€™s, we are were we are and weâ€™ll have to live with the consequences, I just donâ€™t see why Parliament should suddenly accept a bad deal under the excuse of it being the will of the people.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And, imo, he's correct!

In the case of a Referendum - which was subsequently deemed 'binding' No! Part 1 is correct. But Part 2 needs to have 'to impliment our decision' added!

But there is an alternative - No Deal! And that's entirely why we elect Representatives - to implement the option(s) in their manifestos - and anything else that may arise after appropriate 'polling' if necessary - because that's their area of 'expertise'.
We are quite ebtitled to be upset when they make a hash of it, but that's how (UK) democracy works!
		
Click to expand...

And at the next vote, for whatever that will be, WE get the chance to have our voices heard again, but as has already been expressed on here by plenty, theyâ€™ll vote for the same buffoonâ€™s because of a colour of rosette.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In theory, you're right. However, Parliament gave the issue to the electorate. But even then they had the opportunity to take back control but decided to invoke Article 50. In both cases Parliament voted massively in favour. Now that reality is hitting home they don't know whether to stick, twist or go and sit on the bog. What a dire bunch of worthless troughing toads the majority of them are.
		
Click to expand...

And I do believe we will leave eventually, I still donâ€™t expect to remain, the 650 has only become involved after a few made a deal and regardless of which side of the house they sit, it is far too important to expect the rest to lay down and accept just any deal.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I voted to leave, I didn't vote for a deal. If our politicians come up with a deal that could pass through Parliament I would accept it good or bad because that's their job. They haven't  been able to agree the deal that has been offered by the EU which, in my simplistic way, suggest, to complete the Democratic will of the people, we have to leave with no deal and then negotiate as a non EU country.

Many interim agreements have been agreed regardless of us leaving with or without a deal. Never make the headlines and rarely highlighted in Parliament.

So this is the reasoning I have come to about the worth of our votes as everything is n place for the politicians to carry out the result of the referendum yet they are now openly talking about us staying in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m more than happy with no deal and start from fresh, what we are getting forced in to is blackmail by TM.
3 months is not enough time for a decent deal to be agreed.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Maybe, but that wasn't what I was referring to! Did you actually check it out? I'm inclinrd to doubt that you did!
		
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Yes, but who are they to decide what is in the national interest, they and Parliament have failed to make a decision on that, the only thing they are in agreement on is that the deal on the table isn't in the national interest.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

I am astounded by the way so many fail to state their true intentions with Brexit.  If they want us to stay in the EU even though the Referendum vote never went their way then why dont they have the spine to say so.  All this talk of we never understood  what we were voting for, leavers told us lies,the side of the red bus,  there was  no leave plan, no one voted to be worse off, and so on and so forth are just cover stories by bad losers who just cannot accept their vote didnt win.  If the vote had gone the other way then I am certain it would have been accepted and we would have just got on with it.   What a sad reflection on the moral fibre of people these days, the way so many have this entitlement complex. I don't like the way May has carried out the negotiations and come up with this very poor deal, although she is on a hiding to nothing as  many remainers would create the same debacle what ever she came up with.

I have a great deal of respect for the few that voted Remain but have accepted the outcome to leave, I however am disgusted by the way our parliament have acted out this slow motion car crash that has portrayed this once proud democratic country as nothing better than a banana republic. We should hide our faces in shame.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Yes, but who are they to decide what is in the national interest, they and Parliament have failed to make a decision on that, the only thing they are in agreement on is that the deal on the table isn't in the national interest.
		
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That's entirely up to them! Whether you, or I, agree with it is a completely different matter!


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## harpo_72 (Mar 22, 2019)

3.5 million ... and the march tomorrow has to beat 30 people correct .. unless those 30 people had few extra votes or did the Russians not get through customs?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			3.5 million ... and the march tomorrow has to beat 30 people correct .. unless those 30 people had few extra votes or did the Russians not get through customs?
		
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Apparently if they revoke article 50 there will be riots on the streets

Considering they couldnâ€™t organise a march I think we should take the chance ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			.....
I however am disgusted by the way our parliament have acted out this slow motion car crash that has portrayed this once proud *democratic* country as nothing better than a banana republic....
		
Click to expand...

Like it or lump it, it's entirely *because of our democracy* that this is happening! Your 'banana republic' comment is so far out of order it's laughable!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am astounded by the way so many fail to state their true intentions with Brexit.  If they want us to stay in the EU even though the Referendum vote never went their way then why dont they have the spine to say so.  All this talk of we never understood  what we were voting for, leavers told us lies,the side of the red bus,  there was  no leave plan, no one voted to be worse off, and so on and so forth are just cover stories by bad losers who just cannot accept their vote didnt win.  If the vote had gone the other way then I am certain it would have been accepted and we would have just got on with it.   What a sad reflection on the moral fibre of people these days, the way so many have this entitlement complex. I don't like the way May has carried out the negotiations and come up with this very poor deal, although she is on a hiding to nothing as  many remainers would create the same debacle what ever she came up with.

I have a great deal of respect for the few that voted Remain but have accepted the outcome to leave, I however am disgusted by the way our parliament have acted out this slow motion car crash that has portrayed this once proud democratic country as nothing better than a banana republic. We should hide our faces in shame.
		
Click to expand...

I genuinely find your point of view completely blinkered, none of us and I mean none of us actually knew what our vote meant, did it mean a deal at any cost or a good deal or no deal or complete stop and start again.
What I believe it shows is the whole leave process was flawed and WE should of got our own house in order before we started the negotiations and before we evoked Art 50.
Giving the Country 3 months out of a 2 year process is ridiculous.
As for the old â€œif it had gone the other way, weâ€™d of just accepted itâ€ rubbish, no WE wouldnâ€™t, campaigns to get us out or a 2nd Ref would of been getting asked for, 48% of the population would not of been happy.
Dec/Jan/Feb the focus was very much on TM and her handling of this, as weâ€™ve got close to the date and the clear visible signs sheâ€™s not getting her deal through every man and his dog has been blamed, just rewatch her speech from last week to see that!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am astounded by the way so many fail to state their true intentions with Brexit.  If they want us to stay in the EU even though the Referendum vote never went their way then why dont they have the spine to say so.  All this talk of we never understood  what we were voting for, leavers told us lies,the side of the red bus,  there was  no leave plan, no one voted to be worse off, and so on and so forth are just cover stories by bad losers who just cannot accept their vote didnt win.  If the vote had gone the other way then I am certain it would have been accepted and we would have just got on with it.   What a sad reflection on the moral fibre of people these days, the way so many have this entitlement complex. I don't like the way May has carried out the negotiations and come up with this very poor deal, although she is on a hiding to nothing as  many remainers would create the same debacle what ever she came up with.

I have a great deal of respect for the few that voted Remain but have accepted the outcome to leave, I however am disgusted by the way our parliament have acted out this slow motion car crash that has portrayed this once proud democratic country as nothing better than a banana republic. We should hide our faces in shame.
		
Click to expand...

A few fair points but a few I'd like to dispute.  Not everyone who wants to remain wants a second referendum.  I for one am ambivalent on it. I certainly do not want a no deal and if that is the only choice then I'd prefer a 2nd referendum instead.  But a negotiated deal is the fairest outcome to me. To me, and I think many others, it is just thinking happens if we are incapable of getting a negotiated deal.

Also it is not just remainers who have meant May is on a hiding to nothing with the negotiations, better to look internally in the Tory party for that. And as for the long list of things like _'we will be worse off, there was no plan_' are in my opinion very valid points which I'd argue few could dispute ,and are not just cover stories.  They are issues that a lot of people are very concerned about and you can not expect people, or indeed MPs, to just suddenly not worry about them. And finally if the vote had gone the other way then I'm very sure that it would not be the last of it from within the Tory party, UKIP and various others.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am astounded by the way so many fail to state their true intentions with Brexit.  If they want us to stay in the EU even though the Referendum vote never went their way then why dont they have the spine to say so.  All this talk of we never understood  what we were voting for, leavers told us lies,the side of the red bus,  there was  no leave plan, no one voted to be worse off, and so on and so forth are just cover stories by bad losers who just cannot accept their vote didnt win.  If the vote had gone the other way then I am certain it would have been accepted and we would have just got on with it.   What a sad reflection on the moral fibre of people these days, the way so many have this entitlement complex. I don't like the way May has carried out the negotiations and come up with this very poor deal, although she is on a hiding to nothing as  many remainers would create the same debacle what ever she came up with.

I have a great deal of respect for the few that voted Remain but have accepted the outcome to leave, I however am disgusted by the way our parliament have acted out this slow motion car crash that has portrayed this once proud democratic country as nothing better than a banana republic. We should hide our faces in shame.
		
Click to expand...

I am shocked you believe anyone actually won during that vote

All it has done it make a country completely angry and made our parliament system a complete laughing stock ..


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Apparently if they revoke article 50 there will be riots on the streets

Considering they couldnâ€™t organise a march I think we should take the chance ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

It was raining and howling that day wasnâ€™t it!? 
Leavers like to use that excuse anyway for their loss.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			It was raining and howling that day wasnâ€™t it!?
Leavers like to use that excuse anyway for their loss.
		
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Letâ€™s make Britain great again 

As long as itâ€™s not 

Raining
Windy
Snowy 
Slightly cold
Too hot


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			There are structural global changes in the world economy as re-alignment takes place around energy, raw materials and environmental pressures. China, India, South America and Africa are changing fast and will open new markets. The EU project is outdated having developed from a political idea after WW2 because of the need to keep Germany and France locked together and then help the German steel industry. It is now just a restrictive trading bloc which simply takes money from the wealth creating members and gives it to the uncompetitive sectors/members (e.g French agriculture etc).  In recent years they have kept demand alive by giving away money (QE) but now the receivers (France, Italy, Greece, Spain et al) are in so much debt and uncompetitive they can't possible earn/sell enough to pay the interest let alone pay any capital it back.

The EU market is shrinking the UK needs to break out, noises in German suggest they can't afford the EU cost.

Remaining would be the most stupid and shortsighted thing the UK could possible do. The UK must leave, any short term 'pain' (which I don't accept will be major) will be worth it otherwise the UK will be soaked with a share of EU debt and become poorer and  evermore growth restrained.
		
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I wish I could 'Like' this post multiple times, well said Sir!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2019)

This is very sweary but very good.  And apologies if the title offends.


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## Mudball (Mar 22, 2019)

A good distraction from all the fight..  Gina Miller (common enemy??) has a go at this.   Makes funny reading,
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-alternative-speech-brexit-eu-delay-a8834221.html


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			This is very sweary but very good.  And apologies if the title offends.







Click to expand...

Very good? 2:52 into it and I gave up. Maybe I expected something better, something a little more sophisticated. As a social comment it didn't reveal anything we don't already know, and as humour it was just meh.

How about a bit of Frankie Boyle on Brexit.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## adam6177 (Mar 22, 2019)

If the news is true about MPs voting on 6/7 options next week and they do anything but honour the result of the referendum I will never vote again, there will be no true democracy in this country.

I am so ashamed of the people chosen to represent us.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			If the news is true about MPs voting on 6/7 options next week and they do anything but honour the result of the referendum I will never vote again, there will be no true democracy in this country.

I am so ashamed of the people chosen to represent us.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™ll respect them more for having a spine to stand up and say we have decided to stay because we believe itâ€™s best for the country 

They are elected to do whatâ€™s BEST for Britain not whatâ€™s popular


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			A few fair points but a few I'd like to dispute.  Not everyone who wants to remain wants a second referendum.  I for one am ambivalent on it. I certainly do not want a no deal and if that is the only choice then I'd prefer a 2nd referendum instead.  But a negotiated deal is the fairest outcome to me. To me, and I think many others, it is just thinking happens if we are incapable of getting a negotiated deal.

Also it is not just remainers who have meant May is on a hiding to nothing with the negotiations, better to look internally in the Tory party for that. And as for the long list of things like _'we will be worse off, there was no plan_' are in my opinion very valid points which I'd argue few could dispute ,and are not just cover stories.  They are issues that a lot of people are very concerned about and you can not expect people, or indeed MPs, to just suddenly not worry about them. And finally if the vote had gone the other way then I'm very sure that it would not be the last of it from within the Tory party, UKIP and various others.
		
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Regarding your first point, I did say that I respected people who voted leave but accepted the result, I never made a connection between that and a second referendum.

In respect to your other point, i accept your view but still stand by my comment that whatever deal she came back with other than remain it would be rejected by remainers and that of course also means ones in the tory party.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™ll respect them more for having a spine to stand up and say we have decided to stay because we believe itâ€™s best for the country

They are elected to do whatâ€™s BEST for Britain not whatâ€™s popular
		
Click to expand...

I kinda agree with that but would also ask the question about the subjective choice that Brexit is. What is best, and what is a political choice?

I voted Remain, and would do so again but I respect the choice people made from a political perspective. Many have acknowledged there'll be bumps in the road, and it won't go smoothly in the early days. 

Its almost like saying voting Tory/Labour etc is wrong. No it isn't, its a political choice. Wrong in someone's eyes but not wrong in others.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I kinda agree with that but would also ask the question about the subjective choice that Brexit is. What is best, and what is a political choice?

I voted Remain, and would do so again but I respect the choice people made from a political perspective. Many have acknowledged there'll be bumps in the road, and it won't go smoothly in the early days.

Its almost like saying voting Tory/Labour etc is wrong. No it isn't, its a political choice. Wrong in someone's eyes but not wrong in others.
		
Click to expand...

The decision should never have been put to the general public. None of us have the proper knowledge required to make such a decision 

MPs have access to information that we donâ€™t and know things we never will

So whatever the MPs think is best is the right answer


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The decision should never have been put to the general public. None of us have the proper knowledge required to make such a decision

MPs have access to information that we donâ€™t and know things we never will

So whatever the MPs think is best is the right answer
		
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So there should never be General Elections then?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™ll respect them more for having a spine to stand up and say we have decided to stay because we believe itâ€™s best for the country

*They are elected to do whatâ€™s BEST for Britain not whatâ€™s popular*

Click to expand...

Not when they abdicate that responsibility and ask the people to decide for them.  If there was a second referendum and the result was a narrow majority for remain would current remainers be happy if the result was ignored.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The decision should never have been put to the general public. None of us have the proper knowledge required to make such a decision

MPs have access to information that we donâ€™t and know things we never will

So whatever the MPs think is best is the right answer
		
Click to expand...

Thats a terrible post, absolutely wrong.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats a terrible post, absolutely wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Because you donâ€™t agree with it. Sorry but it should never have gone To a vote

None of us know enough to have a proper vote on the situation 

No matter how much hot air you produce doesnâ€™t make you right ðŸ‘Œ


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			So there should never be General Elections then?
		
Click to expand...

No. Thatâ€™s different because we need to elect MPs to make the decisions.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Because you donâ€™t agree with it. Sorry but it should never have gone To a vote

None of us know enough to have a proper vote on the situation

No matter how much hot air you produce doesnâ€™t make you right ðŸ‘Œ
		
Click to expand...

Totally with SR on this one, what makes you think all Politicians are more intelligent than you or I or have a better understanding of current affairs?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			No. Thatâ€™s different because we need to elect MPs to make the decisions.
		
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But if ,as you suggest, we dont have enough knowledge to understand politics then surely you cannot think we should be trusted to make the choice.  Maybe we should allow the civil service to pick them.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The decision should never have been put to the general public. None of us have the proper knowledge required to make such a decision

MPs have access to information that we donâ€™t and know things we never will

So whatever the MPs think is best is the right answer
		
Click to expand...

The problem with that theory is that even with all the information you suggest they have access to there are still widely differing views on what we should do from those advocating No Deal to those saying revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU and everything in between. So if they are all getting this extra information then either the info isn't clear as to what's best or a large majority of them are deliberately ignoring it for their own political aims and therefore can't be trusted to make the decision in the best interests of the country.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			No. Thatâ€™s different because we need to elect MPs to make the decisions.
		
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Yes we do, and those politicians that you say know best made the decision to give the referendum to the electorate. So, using your logic, they knew the best way to make the right decision was to ask the electorate.


And by the way, if you think politicians have a broad breadth of knowledge on every single thing that comes up in Parliament you're very sadly misguided. And if you think many of the ministers in charge of this fiasco are bright... seriously, many of them would make good salesmen and saleswomen but they lack the intellect you think they have.


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The problem with that theory is that even with all the information you suggest they have access to there are still widely differing views on what we should do from those advocating No Deal to those saying revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU and everything in between. So if they are all getting this extra information then either the info isn't clear as to what's best or a large majority of them are deliberately ignoring it for their own political aims and therefore can't be trusted to make the decision in the best interests of the country.
		
Click to expand...

thats why they have large departments to do the leg work....


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			thats why they have large departments to do the leg work....
		
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Does that mean if a senior lecturer at a university instructed you how to do brain surgery you could do it? Having the info and knowing what to do with it are two very different things.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally with SR on this one, what makes you think all Politicians are more intelligent than you or I or have a better understanding of current affairs?
		
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Iâ€™m not saying they are smarter than anyone

What Iâ€™m saying is they have access to information that you and I donâ€™t.

They know what membership of the EU really meals

We get fed how much it costs etc etc but they know what benefits we fully get. What deals we get that the public donâ€™t know

They know for example how much information security services share and how many acts of terror have been stopped using it.. stuff we as the public donâ€™t have access too.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™m not saying they are smarter than anyone

What Iâ€™m saying is they have access to information that you and I donâ€™t.

They know what membership of the EU really meals

We get fed how much it costs etc etc but they know what benefits we fully get. What deals we get that the public donâ€™t know

They know for example how much information security services share and how many acts of terror have been stopped using it.. stuff we as the public donâ€™t have access too.
		
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Most of that information is available in the public domain and not all information is shared to all MPâ€™s, especially on security, like someone put above they have staff that will decide on their behalf what they need to know and when.
What about those decisions MPâ€™s donâ€™t agree with and are then order to vote for it along Party lines.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™m not saying they are smarter than anyone

What Iâ€™m saying is they have access to information that you and I donâ€™t.

They know what membership of the EU really meals

We get fed how much it costs etc etc but they know what benefits we fully get. What deals we get that the public donâ€™t know

They know for example how much information security services share and how many acts of terror have been stopped using it.. stuff we as the public donâ€™t have access too.
		
Click to expand...

Most of the stuff you listed Iâ€™m sure you could google it.... Acts of terror stopped are usually reported on. Itâ€™ll be tough to find that list of benefits though! 

The only stuff they know compared to the man next door might be were they keep the aliens, and whose avoiding tax in one of the many uk tax havens.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

MPs have great access to research material but so do we, the only difference I'd we have to do our own leg work and politicians have researchers paid for by us. It depends on how much work you want to do on a particular subject. I have had MPs from two different parties ask me for input on different subjects. 

Very few politicians are that clever.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Most of that information is available in the public domain and not all information is shared to all MPâ€™s, especially on security, like someone put above they have staff that will decide on their behalf what they need to know and when.
What about those decisions MPâ€™s donâ€™t agree with and are then order to vote for it along Party lines.
		
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Should be a party line free vote on brexit 

However you say they have staff thatâ€™s exactly what Iâ€™m saying. They have reports made for them to highlight the importance of the eu or not

If they put it to the MPs free vote revoke a50 or no deal that should be the end of it either way. They wonâ€™t set the country up to fail


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## Imurg (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Because you donâ€™t agree with it. Sorry but it should never have gone To a vote

None of us know enough to have a proper vote on the situation

No matter how much hot air you produce doesnâ€™t make you right ðŸ‘Œ
		
Click to expand...

It should never have gone to a vote.
But as soon as it did, and we had an election that most Political parties confirmed in their manifestos that they would abide by the outcome, Parliament had a duty to get us the best deal they could.
Parliament hasn't
It's failing in its duty and going back on its promise.
Don't forget...they voted by a majority of 384 to trigger A50...
If most MP's are not in favour of leaving, and it seems most are not in favour, then why did they vote to trigger A50 in the first place?
If there is a vote next week to revoke A50 it will be a slap in the face and blowing a raspberry to everyone who voted to leave..
Don't ask a question if you're not prepared to listen to an answer you don't like.
If it gets revoked, Parliament will have lost the respect and faith of a seriously large number of people.


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Does that mean if a senior lecturer at a university instructed you how to do brain surgery you could do it? Having the info and knowing what to do with it are two very different things.
		
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? what nonsense are you on now


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

Imurg said:



			It should never have gone to a vote.
But as soon as it did, and we had an election that most Political parties confirmed in their manifestos that they would abide by the outcome, Parliament had a duty to get us the best deal they could.
Parliament hasn't
It's failing in its duty and going back on its promise.
Don't forget...they voted by a majority of 384 to trigger A50...
If most MP's are not in favour of leaving, and it seems most are not in favour, then why did they vote to trigger A50 in the first place?
If there is a vote next week to revoke A50 it will be a slap in the face and blowing a raspberry to everyone who voted to leave..
Don't ask a question if you're not prepared to listen to an answer you don't like.
If it gets revoked, Parliament will have lost the respect and faith of a seriously large number of people.
		
Click to expand...

The first mistake was putting a referendum out there

The next was actually making it law when it wasnâ€™t legally binding at all


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			If they put it to the MPs free vote revoke a50 or no deal that should be the end of it either way. They wonâ€™t set the country up to fail
		
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Most MPs backed themselves into a corner with public statements backing the result of the referendum. They will face all kinds of hassle on media sites when they start back peddling as Soubry is finding out.

As already posted, if they had been more truthful with the public they would have had more room to manoeuvre.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Should be a party line free vote on brexit

However you say they have staff thatâ€™s exactly what Iâ€™m saying. They have reports made for them to highlight the importance of the eu or not

If they put it to the MPs free vote revoke a50 or no deal that should be the end of it either way. They wonâ€™t set the country up to fail
		
Click to expand...

So having said they should make the decision you're now saying setting the parameters as to how they should set up the vote. Make your mind up. Is it your way or their way.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			? what nonsense are you on now
		
Click to expand...

Nice to see you're still at your most obnoxious best. Isn't it past your bedtime yet Lego boy?


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The first mistake was putting a referendum out there

The next was actually making it law when it wasnâ€™t legally binding at all
		
Click to expand...

So you know best even though you've been saying they should make the decision... unbelievable Jeff!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			So having said they should make the decision you're now saying setting the parameters as to how they should set up the vote. Make your mind up. Is it your way or their way.
		
Click to expand...

What other way is there hobbit? Her deal has been blocked and canâ€™t be put through a 3rd time

So doesnâ€™t that just leave us 2 options? Revoke a50 and no deal?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Should be a party line free vote on brexit

However you say they have staff thatâ€™s exactly what Iâ€™m saying. They have reports made for them to highlight the importance of the eu or not

If they put it to the MPs free vote revoke a50 or no deal that should be the end of it either way. They wonâ€™t set the country up to fail
		
Click to expand...

So if they have staff itâ€™s not them making the decision! What if a member of staff only gives them the information the staff member wants them to see?
Back to Brexit, TM in charge, TMâ€™s Government has a majority and in theory, if sheâ€™d of done a deal that satisfied that majority then the rest of Parliament is immaterial, regardless of what other MPâ€™s, you or me think is best for the Country.


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Nice to see you're still at your most obnoxious best. Isn't it past your bedtime yet Lego boy?
		
Click to expand...

tbf i usually ignore what you write as its obviously copy and pasted from somewhere else.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So if they have staff itâ€™s not them making the decision! What if a member of staff only gives them the information the staff member wants them to see?
Back to Brexit, TM in charge, TMâ€™s Government has a majority and in theory, if sheâ€™d of done a deal that satisfied that majority then the rest of Parliament is immaterial, regardless of what other MPâ€™s, you or me think is best for the Country.
		
Click to expand...

If she hadnt tried to be clever to call for an election with the majority she had brexit might have happened by now instead of going into bed with the DUP


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			What other way is there hobbit? Her deal has been blocked and canâ€™t be put through a 3rd time

So doesnâ€™t that just leave us 2 options? Revoke a50 and no deal?
		
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It will go a third time even though it's doomed. There has been a fundamental change as the EU has added dates and consequences which will be added to the amendment.


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			If she hadnt tried to be clever to call for an election with the majority she had brexit might have happened by now instead of going into bed with the DUP
		
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nah, she only had a pretty slim majority anyway, what as it 18 i think?


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			tbf i usually ignore what you write as its obviously copy and pasted from somewhere else.
		
Click to expand...

Can you give me the lottery numbers too, seeing as you're psychic?


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## Mudball (Mar 22, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			This is very sweary but very good.  And apologies if the title offends.







Click to expand...


Nails it...  Leave was a vote to 'send a message', people are disenfranchised due to a variety of reasons and our incompetent residents of WasteMinisters piled it onto foreigners and benefits et al..  Then Cameron and his gang made a right Eton Mess of the country..


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			thats why they have large departments to do the leg work....
		
Click to expand...

How many MPs have large departments?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Nails it...  Leave was a vote to 'send a message', people are disenfranchised due to a variety of reasons and our incompetent residents of WasteMinisters piled it onto foreigners and benefits et al..  Then Cameron and his gang made a right Eton Mess of the country..
		
Click to expand...

The only message I sent them was that I wanted the UK to leave the EU so it would be an independent country.  Nothing to do with being disenfranchised, what ever that means.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The only message I sent them was that I wanted the UK to leave the EU so it would be an independent country.  Nothing to do with being disenfranchised, what ever that means.
		
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independent as 1 or 4? So an united country of 4 working together or 4 countries ...


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2019)

I think what this thread shows and all over social media in tbe Government , work and in fact all over the country - is that this vote has torn the country apart , itâ€™s made us a laughing stock , itâ€™s drawn a big trench right down the middle of the country , itâ€™s enabled normally mild mannered people become very angry and overall people have become more selfish 

This vote and process is imo going to damage the country for a long time - Iâ€™m not talking about financially because no one will know what happens in that sense until itâ€™s finished but as a country we are going to be divided and a mess for a long time - there are going to be a hell of a lot of â€œI told you soâ€ etc etc - the resentment against this whole process just gets bigger and bigger


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think what this thread shows and all over social media in tbe Government , work and in fact all over the country - is that this vote has torn the country apart , itâ€™s made us a laughing stock , itâ€™s drawn a big trench right down the middle of the country , itâ€™s enabled normally mild mannered people become very angry and overall people have become more selfish

This vote and process is imo going to damage the country for a long time - Iâ€™m not talking about financially because no one will know what happens in that sense until itâ€™s finished but as a country we are going to be divided and a mess for a long time - there are going to be a hell of a lot of â€œI told you soâ€ etc etc - the resentment against this whole process just gets bigger and bigger
		
Click to expand...

Completely bang on.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			independent as 1 or 4? So an united country of 4 working together or 4 countries ...
		
Click to expand...

What do you not understand about the UK leaving the EU and becoming independent.  It's not complicated.


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## Beezerk (Mar 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think what this thread shows and all over social media in tbe Government , work and in fact all over the country - is that this vote has torn the country apart , itâ€™s made us a laughing stock , itâ€™s drawn a big trench right down the middle of the country , itâ€™s enabled normally mild mannered people become very angry and overall people have become more selfish

This vote and process is imo going to damage the country for a long time - Iâ€™m not talking about financially because no one will know what happens in that sense until itâ€™s finished but as a country we are going to be divided and a mess for a long time - there are going to be a hell of a lot of â€œI told you soâ€ etc etc - the resentment against this whole process just gets bigger and bigger
		
Click to expand...

Not like you to put a negative spin on something is it.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think what this thread shows and all over social media in tbe Government , work and in fact all over the country - is that this vote has torn the country apart , itâ€™s made us a laughing stock , itâ€™s drawn a big trench right down the middle of the country , itâ€™s enabled normally mild mannered people become very angry and overall people have become more selfish

This vote and process is imo going to damage the country for a long time - Iâ€™m not talking about financially because no one will know what happens in that sense until itâ€™s finished but as a country we are going to be divided and a mess for a long time - there are going to be a hell of a lot of â€œI told you soâ€ etc etc - the resentment against this whole process just gets bigger and bigger
		
Click to expand...

No it didn't, the vote was simple and only needed a Yes or No to be enacted.  The only thing that has torn the country apart is people not accepting the result and working against it.

Get a grip on reality, this is a golf forum with a bunch of golfers having a battle, I mean debate over Brexit. The world is not watching us with bated breath for the next onslaught, I mean posting.


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## Kellfire (Mar 22, 2019)

Some coarse language but the message is spot on -




__ https://www.facebook.com/796085293847699/posts/1983497615106455


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Not like you to put a negative spin on something is it.
		
Click to expand...

Tell me something positive thatâ€™s happening right now because of the vote and the process



SocketRocket said:



			No it didn't, the vote was simple and only needed a Yes or No to be enacted.  The only thing that has torn the country apart is people not accepting the result and working against it.
		
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Thatâ€™s always the same answer is it - people not accepting the result - which people is that exactly ? Are â€œpeopleâ€ not allowed to voice their concerns or disappointments at the result and the process ? Are â€œpeopleâ€ not allowed to carry out their democratic right to see if people have changed their mind ? Do â€œpeopleâ€ just have to â€œshutâ€ up and accept it then ?

Maybe one day people like you will understand you are as much as part of the bad feeling with this whole process as the MPâ€™s making a mess of it - your whole attitude and people like you towards people who voted leave and want to stay in the EU adds nothing but resentment and right now growing towards hatred. 

Itâ€™s fairytale stuff that people like you think it was just a yes or no and then follow it through - we are that entwined within Europe it was always going to be a complete mess to leave.

The country is a mess right now and the divide is going to get bigger and nastier


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## Beezerk (Mar 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Tell me something positive thatâ€™s happening right now because of the vote and the process
		
Click to expand...

I get to be entertained by this thread ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‰


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I get to be entertained by this thread ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

Well thatâ€™s a fair shout ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Tell me something positive thatâ€™s happening right now because of the vote and the process



Thatâ€™s always the same answer is it - people not accepting the result - which people is that exactly ? Are â€œpeopleâ€ not allowed to voice their concerns or disappointments at the result and the process ? Are â€œpeopleâ€ not allowed to carry out their democratic right to see if people have changed their mind ? Do â€œpeopleâ€ just have to â€œshutâ€ up and accept it then ?

Maybe one day people like you will understand you are as much as part of the bad feeling with this whole process as the MPâ€™s making a mess of it - your whole attitude and people like you towards people who voted leave and want to stay in the EU adds nothing but resentment and right now growing towards hatred.

Itâ€™s fairytale stuff that people like you think it was just a yes or no and then follow it through - we are that entwined within Europe it was always going to be a complete mess to leave.

The country is a mess right now and the divide is going to get bigger and nastier
		
Click to expand...

To quote a well known poster here. 'Utter Twaddle'

I will Replace 6 divots and repair 12 pitchmarks your perfectness


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## harpo_72 (Mar 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Nice to see you're still at your most obnoxious best. Isn't it past your bedtime yet Lego boy?
		
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Is everyone a Lego boy if they disagree? Disappointed in your creativity â˜¹ï¸.

But back on topic, the majority of the vote was not enough to make it straight forward. 
All of this was quite predictable, article 50 going through the house like a spinach vindaloo was more likely a bit of tactical voting. If you see the time line and have a rough grasp of the complexity, you would say they pushed the article 50 button, too quickly. So if you have a Machiavellian streak you would have voted for article 50 and then played a game on all the other votes... is that right or wrong ? Dunno donâ€™t care it was naive from the get go.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			To quote a well known poster here. 'Utter Twaddle'

I will Replace 6 divots and repair 12 pitchmarks your perfectness 

Click to expand...

Just about sums up your dismissive arrogance ðŸ‘ oh well Iâ€™ll pop back in a week or so to see if anything useful is posted


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just about sums up your dismissive arrogance ðŸ‘ oh well Iâ€™ll pop back in a week or so to see if anything useful is posted
		
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Can't wait


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## Imurg (Mar 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Tell me something positive thatâ€™s happening right now because of the vote and the process



Thatâ€™s always the same answer is it - people not accepting the result - which people is that exactly ? Are â€œpeopleâ€ not allowed to voice their concerns or disappointments at the result and the process ? Are â€œpeopleâ€ not allowed to carry out their democratic right to see if people have changed their mind ? Do â€œpeopleâ€ just have to â€œshutâ€ up and accept it then ?

Maybe one day people like you will understand you are as much as part of the bad feeling with this whole process as the MPâ€™s making a mess of it - your whole attitude and people like you towards people who voted leave and want to stay in the EU adds nothing but resentment and right now growing towards hatred.

Itâ€™s fairytale stuff that people like you think it was just a yes or no and then follow it through - we are that entwined within Europe it was always going to be a complete mess to leave.

The country is a mess right now and the divide is going to get bigger and nastier
		
Click to expand...

But why is there a divide?
There was a referendum in 2011 about an alternative voting system. Whichever side lost accepted it and moved on.
Ok, this is bigger but the principle is, or should, be the same.
One side won, one side didn't 
Any animosity, other than that aimed at the pathetic group currently sitting in Westminster, is down to the side that lost the vote not getting behind the decision and working towards obtaining the best possible exit strategy.
If that had happened, both politicians and the general public, we might not be in the mess we are in.
Those that voted leave want to leave, those that voted to stay, or didn't even vote, haven't, in significant numbers, accepted that they didn't win the vote and are trying their hardest to derail the process by whatever means they can.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Is everyone a Lego boy if they disagree? Disappointed in your creativity â˜¹ï¸.

But back on topic, the majority of the vote was not enough to make it straight forward.
All of this was quite predictable, article 50 going through the house like a spinach vindaloo was more likely a bit of tactical voting. If you see the time line and have a rough grasp of the complexity, you would say they pushed the article 50 button, too quickly. So if you have a Machiavellian streak you would have voted for article 50 and then played a game on all the other votes... is that right or wrong ? Dunno donâ€™t care it was naive from the get go.
		
Click to expand...

When Robin first started posting on the thread he was quite reasonable. As people questioned his postings he got a little tetchy. More recently its been a stream of childish one liners, 99% of which I ignore. Tonight I posted an analogy about expertise and got a snotty response. I responded in kind, i.e. at his level. Debate my opinion, fine. Diss it out of hand and I give it back. Sorry it doesn't meet with your approval but hey, its Friday and its only a debate on an emotive subject.

I don't think the raising of Article 50 was too quick nor too slow, it is what it is, but I do think the British govt expected an easy ride off the EU and a equitable deal would arrive. I think the EU have played a blinder, and not necessarily particularly straight, e.g. what authority does Corbyn have to negotiate a deal t this moment. Divide and conquer, and the EU are masterful at it. And yes, I do think the British govt have been naive.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Tell me something positive thatâ€™s happening right now because of the vote and the process
		
Click to expand...

Katya Adler is on TV and radio a lot more.  Mmmmmm Katya.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Imurg said:



			But why is there a divide?
There was a referendum in 2011 about an alternative voting system. Whichever side lost accepted it and moved on.
Ok, this is bigger but the principle is, or should, be the same.
One side won, one side didn't
Any animosity, other than that aimed at the pathetic group currently sitting in Westminster, is down to the side that lost the vote not getting behind the decision and working towards obtaining the best possible exit strategy.
If that had happened, both politicians and the general public, we might not be in the mess we are in.
Those that voted leave want to leave, those that voted to stay, or didn't even vote, haven't, in significant numbers, accepted that they didn't win the vote and are trying their hardest to derail the process by whatever means they can.
		
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A very good post that sums up the situation very well.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Katya Adler is on TV and radio a lot more.  Mmmmmm Katya.
		
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Mmmmmmmm


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2019)

Imurg said:



			But why is there a divide?
There was a referendum in 2011 about an alternative voting system. Whichever side lost accepted it and moved on.
Ok, this is bigger but the principle is, or should, be the same.
		
Click to expand...

The reason why I would have thought would be quite clear - there are millions within the country that work in an area that rely on a good relationship , a free trade and movement relationship with the EU - people saw a future with the EU , they wanted to stay in the EU and the vote was very close - right now there are 3 mil plus votes in some sort of petition - that should show you how much some people want to stay in the EU - so the result was always going to be very divisive 




			One side won, one side didn't
Any animosity, other than that aimed at the pathetic group currently sitting in Westminster, is down to the side that lost the vote not getting behind the decision and working towards obtaining the best possible exit strategy.
		
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Won ? Lost ? Straight away that carries a air of arrogance when people start pointing towards people being â€œlosersâ€ - and right now no one is winning and the country is losing 

And right now there is animosity on all sides 




			If that had happened, both politicians and the general public, we might not be in the mess we are in.
Those that voted leave want to leave, those that voted to stay, or didn't even vote, haven't, in significant numbers, accepted that they didn't win the vote and are trying their hardest to derail the process by whatever means they can.
		
Click to expand...

See all you are doing is pointing fingers at people who voted to leave - and yet you ask why there is such a divide ? Maybe stop pointing fingers for a start and tell me how exactly the people who voted to stay are trying to derail the process - after the vote what exactly can they do ? A March - what difference does that make ? A petition ? Again doesnâ€™t really make a difference 

Maybe the people who voted to leave should stop blaming people who voted to stay for the way Brexit is going - maybe they should look at themselves for a start and understand that this whole process was always going to be a massive divisive process that was going to be a complete nightmare


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The reason why I would have thought would be quite clear - there are millions within the country that work in an area that rely on a good relationship , a free trade and movement relationship with the EU - people saw a future with the EU , they wanted to stay in the EU and the vote was very close - right now there are 3 mil plus votes in some sort of petition - that should show you how much some people want to stay in the EU - so the result was always going to be very divisive



Won ? Lost ? Straight away that carries a air of arrogance when people start pointing towards people being â€œlosersâ€ - and right now no one is winning and the country is losing

And right now there is animosity on all sides



See all you are doing is pointing fingers at people who voted to leave - and yet you ask why there is such a divide ? Maybe stop pointing fingers for a start and tell me how exactly the people who voted to stay are trying to derail the process - after the vote what exactly can they do ? A March - what difference does that make ? A petition ? Again doesnâ€™t really make a difference

Maybe the people who voted to leave should stop blaming people who voted to stay for the way Brexit is going - maybe they should look at themselves for a start and understand that this whole process was always going to be a massive divisive process that was going to be a complete nightmare
		
Click to expand...

Well, that week or so flew past quickly. Have we left yet.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The reason why I would have thought would be quite clear - there are millions within the country that work in an area that rely on a good relationship , a free trade and movement relationship with the EU - people saw a future with the EU , they wanted to stay in the EU and the vote was very close - right now there are 3 mil plus votes in some sort of petition - that should show you how much some people want to stay in the EU - so the result was always going to be very divisive



Won ? Lost ? Straight away that carries a air of arrogance when people start pointing towards people being â€œlosersâ€ - and right now no one is winning and the country is losing

And right now there is animosity on all sides



See all you are doing is pointing fingers at people who voted to leave - and yet you ask why there is such a divide ? Maybe stop pointing fingers for a start and tell me how exactly the people who voted to stay are trying to derail the process - after the vote what exactly can they do ? A March - what difference does that make ? A petition ? Again doesnâ€™t really make a difference

Maybe the people who voted to leave should stop blaming people who voted to stay for the way Brexit is going - maybe they should look at themselves for a start and understand that this whole process was always going to be a massive divisive process that was going to be a complete nightmare
		
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And there are millions that wanted to Leave. They won the vote that they were told would be honoured.

There is a difference between losing and the connotations youâ€™re applying to being a loser. In that respect youâ€™re looking for something that isnâ€™t there.

Both sides are pointing fingers. Right from Day 1 many Remainers have squealed unfair, too close, compromise. Leavers have shouted out means out, and have become increasingly frustrated by a Remain PM selling them short.

I donâ€™t think Leave will happen at all. In my opinion, on such a close vote, which ever party takes the U.K. out of the EU risks losing a shed load of Remain voters. Iâ€™ll put money on it not happening without a second referendum, which Remain will win 60/40. And the the Tories will save face by saying the people decided.


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## PieMan (Mar 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Mmmmmmmm
		
Click to expand...

At least you and HK agree on something!! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I get to be entertained by this thread ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‰
		
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So you may like the case of the deranged Leaver shouting at the Wastemonster SNP leader that he is a 'traitor to England'

Or Oliver Notwell the great parliamentarian 
https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/img537.jpg


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The reason why I would have thought would be quite clear - there are millions within the country that work in an area that rely on a good relationship , a free trade and movement relationship with the EU - people saw a future with the EU , they wanted to stay in the EU and the vote was very close - right now there are 3 mil plus votes in some sort of petition - that should show you how much some people want to stay in the EU - so the result was always going to be very divisive



Won ? Lost ? Straight away that carries a air of arrogance when people start pointing towards people being â€œlosersâ€ - and right now no one is winning and the country is losing

And right now there is animosity on all sides



See all you are doing is pointing fingers at people who voted to leave - and yet you ask why there is such a divide ? Maybe stop pointing fingers for a start and tell me how exactly the people who voted to stay are trying to derail the process - after the vote what exactly can they do ? A March - what difference does that make ? A petition ? Again doesnâ€™t really make a difference

Maybe the people who voted to leave should stop blaming people who voted to stay for the way Brexit is going - maybe they should look at themselves for a start and understand that this whole process was always going to be a massive divisive process that was going to be a complete nightmare
		
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Well, there's the 3 million who have signed the petition
There's a huge march on Parliament today
There's another one planned for next week
Seemingly a majority of MPs are against leaving....

I could probably find more if I wanted to but I really can't be bothered any more
It wouldn't surprise me if A50 gets revoked sometime soon and all the remainers can breathe a huge sigh of satisfaction while the MAJORITY of those who voted ponder on why they bothered and wonder how this will affect future elections/votes when the MINORITY of those that voted doesn't get their way.
The arrogance is with those who's view was not backed by the people and their mindset that if they squeem and squeem until they're sick they'll eventually get their way.
If there's another referendum and Remain wins don't be surprised when millions of people demand another vote...and another....and another....

The real blame lies with the Politicians.
The got elected on the promise to enact the result
They haven't.
Parliament should suspended and every MP banned from standing for office again.
Because they lie. They lie to further their own careers and line their pockets.
If anyone was given a major task at work and ballsed it up as much as this has been they'd be sacked.
They are unfit for public service.


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## Mudball (Mar 23, 2019)

The petition has run out of steam.. could not break the 4m mark .. 

Would be interesting to see how the March goes.. last week Farageâ€™s leave means Leave did not go anywhere and he did not turn up either. I suspect thousands will turn up today and make it a carnival. The Remain MPs will make some speeches. Maybot will be absent. 
On Monday everyone will go back to work and nothing would have changed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Well, there's the 3 million who have signed the petition
There's a huge march on Parliament today
There's another one planned for next week
Seemingly a majority of MPs are against leaving....

I could probably find more if I wanted to but I really can't be bothered any more
It wouldn't surprise me if A50 gets revoked sometime soon and all the remainers can breathe a huge sigh of satisfaction while the MAJORITY of those who voted ponder on why they bothered and wonder how this will affect future elections/votes when the MINORITY of those that voted doesn't get their way.
The arrogance is with those who's view was not backed by the people and their mindset that if they squeem and squeem until they're sick they'll eventually get their way.
If there's another referendum and Remain wins don't be surprised when millions of people demand another vote...and another....and another....

The real blame lies with the Politicians.
The got elected on the promise to enact the result
They haven't.
Parliament should suspended and every MP banned from standing for office again.
Because they lie. They lie to further their own careers and line their pockets.
If anyone was given a major task at work and ballsed it up as much as this has been they'd be sacked.
They are unfit for public service.
		
Click to expand...

So you now see why there is a divide which was my original point and what questioned ?

Right now the whole thing is a mess - loads of blame game going on , finger pointing and a complete nightmare for many people - there are lots affected by this whole process and people on both sides are sick of it all - both of your posts spend a lot of time pointing fingers at people who voted to leave - they havenâ€™t made this mess we are in , they didnâ€™t vote for this so why are they getting the blame 

And itâ€™s not going to change - if we leave the EU and itâ€™s a complete mess short and medium turn ( people donâ€™t care long term anymore ) then the divide is going to get worse , if we donâ€™t leave then there will be lots of blame on people who voted leave - both scenarios make the divide wider and more bitter


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The petition has run out of steam.. could not break the 4m mark ..

Would be interesting to see how the March goes.. last week Farageâ€™s leave means Leave did not go anywhere and he did not turn up either. I suspect thousands will turn up today and make it a carnival. The Remain MPs will make some speeches. Maybot will be absent.
On Monday everyone will go back to work and nothing would have changed.
		
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He did turn up! He walked the 1st day, unfortunately the idiot walked through were I live!


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you now see why there is a divide which was my original point and what questioned ?

Right now the whole thing is a mess - loads of blame game going on , finger pointing and a complete nightmare for many people - there are lots affected by this whole process and people on both sides are sick of it all - both of your posts spend a lot of time pointing fingers at people who voted to leave - they havenâ€™t made this mess we are in , they didnâ€™t vote for this so why are they getting the blame

And itâ€™s not going to change - if we leave the EU and itâ€™s a complete mess short and medium turn ( people donâ€™t care long term anymore ) then the divide is going to get worse , if we donâ€™t leave then there will be lots of blame on people who voted leave - both scenarios make the divide wider and more bitter
		
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Irony meter just exploded
Who's finger pointing now?

These people who signed the petition and those going on the march today - have they accepted the result of the referendum?
I'm not, at this point, interested in why - have they accepted the result?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Irony meter just exploded
Who's finger pointing now?

These people who signed the petition and those going on the march today - have they accepted the result of the referendum?
I'm not, at this point, interested in why - have they accepted the result?
		
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I donâ€™t think anyone expected the result to be so close either way 

Then Farage said if leave lost by a slim margin it would need another vote .. so he only willing to accept if he wins


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## harpo_72 (Mar 23, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Irony meter just exploded
Who's finger pointing now?

These people who signed the petition and those going on the march today - have they accepted the result of the referendum?
I'm not, at this point, interested in why - have they accepted the result?
		
Click to expand...

No.
The information is out there, the plan isnâ€™t nor has preparatory work been done.
Get that sorted and letâ€™s review. Too many peopleâ€™s futures are at stake... for the whim of 3million majority and 15million who abstained or missed an opportunity to say it. The 17.4million is a miscellaneous figure, you need to deduct those who voted the other way... so itâ€™s too small to force this change through and that is being enacted out in the commons, and we will see in the house of lords.

Not the answer you want hear, I know.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I donâ€™t think anyone expected the result to be so close either way

Then Farage said if leave lost by a slim margin it would need another vote .. so he only willing to accept if he wins[/QUOTe
Farage is a hypocrit, his behaviours have given him away... still struggle with why people cannot see he is a dick
		
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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No.
The information is out there, the plan isnâ€™t nor has preparatory work been done.
Get that sorted and letâ€™s review. Too many peopleâ€™s futures are at stake... for the whim of 3million majority and 15million who abstained or missed an opportunity to say it. The 17.4million is a miscellaneous figure, you need to deduct those who voted the other way... so itâ€™s too small to force this change through and that is being enacted out in the commons, and we will see in the house of lords.

Not the answer you want hear, I know.
		
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Wasnâ€™t even a 3 million majority though was it, 1.5 million or something ?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 23, 2019)

What nobody expected was Leave winning.  The vote was supposed to be sop to those who wanted to leave and we were to be told that we had had our opportunity and blown it. No one planned for it so rather than implementing the will of the people, weâ€™ll look for every way to avoid carrying it out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Irony meter just exploded
Who's finger pointing now?

These people who signed the petition and those going on the march today - have they accepted the result of the referendum?
I'm not, at this point, interested in why - have they accepted the result?
		
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Well you are blaming people for something that is not their fault

They didnâ€™t vote for this , they didnâ€™t want Brexit and to have this current mess so why are they to blame ?

People having a March and a petition is carrying out their democratic right and at the end of the day that wonâ€™t change a decision and itâ€™s not the March or petition that has us where we are right now

I thought this was a good picture




So what if people havenâ€™t â€œacceptedâ€ the result - thatâ€™s their right being in a democracy or should they be told to just shut up ? People donâ€™t accept votes - and there is nothing wrong with that or asking for another vote - not one single vote is ever the final one


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well you are blaming people for something that is not their fault

They didnâ€™t vote for this , they didnâ€™t want Brexit and to have this current mess so why are they to blame ?

People having a March and a petition is carrying out their democratic right and at the end of the day that wonâ€™t change a decision and itâ€™s not the March or petition that has us where we are right now

I thought this was a good picture

View attachment 26897


So what if people havenâ€™t â€œacceptedâ€ the result - thatâ€™s their right being in a democracy or should they be told to just shut up ? People donâ€™t accept votes - and there is nothing wrong with that or asking for another vote - not one single vote is ever the final one
		
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A great picture; it clearly showed that the majority who bothered to vote wanted to leave, so can we sort it out please. 

The number of people not on the electoral roll is of no relevance whatsoever.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			...
No matter how much hot air you produce doesnâ€™t make you right ðŸ‘Œ
		
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Correct, but it seems that folk can be convinced of anything if enough hot air is produced! And that (producing lots of hot air to convince folk they are correct) is what politicians are, supposedly, experts at!


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## harpo_72 (Mar 23, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			A great picture; it clearly showed that the majority who bothered to vote wanted to leave, so can we sort it out please.

The number of people not on the electoral roll is of no relevance whatsoever.
		
Click to expand...

The difference is too small .. this is why there is an issue.


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			What nobody expected was Leave winning.  The vote was supposed to be sop to those who wanted to leave and we were to be told that we had had our opportunity and blown it. No one planned for it so rather than implementing the will of the people, weâ€™ll look for every way to avoid carrying it out.
		
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Is the correct answer.
No "if" or "buts"- had the politicians got behind it and done their jobs with even a modicum of gumption we'd be walking away next week with a reasonable deal for both sides. Instead, the whole shower of cow poo has got lost on the way to the brewery and can't even find the brothel.
And that's my last word on the subject as it's a waste of time going round in ever decreasing circles


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Can't wait 

Click to expand...

Utter Twaddle!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well you are blaming people for something that is not their fault

They didnâ€™t vote for this , they didnâ€™t want Brexit and to have this current mess so why are they to blame ?

People having a March and a petition is carrying out their democratic right and at the end of the day that wonâ€™t change a decision and itâ€™s not the March or petition that has us where we are right now

I thought this was a good picture

View attachment 26897


So what if people havenâ€™t â€œacceptedâ€ the result - thatâ€™s their right being in a democracy or should they be told to just shut up ? People donâ€™t accept votes - and there is nothing wrong with that or asking for another vote - not one single vote is ever the final one
		
Click to expand...

What a stupid  chart. There are around 64 million people represented on it, that would indicate every person in the country including children and babes in arms were entitled to a vote.   The turn out in the referendum was the highest number to ever vote so looking at dodgy data like this is plain stupid.  Try harder no gerrymandering will change the FACTS.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Utter Twaddle! 

Click to expand...

ðŸš®


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## Big Jim (Mar 23, 2019)

so TM sends a letter to all MP saying she will only resubmit her "deal" if there is support, the woman is delusional, what were the last attempts to get it thorough... record failures, that what.

She was one of the worst Home Sec its little surprise she is one of the worst PMs


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2019)

So when the Remainers start petitions and go on marches they are exercising their Democratic right, but when Leavers are not happy that TMâ€™s deal is a bad deal and they complain or as an MP refuse to back it, they are spineless and self serving and un-democratic.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No.
The information is out there, the plan isnâ€™t nor has preparatory work been done.
Get that sorted and letâ€™s review. Too many peopleâ€™s futures are at stake... for the whim of 3million majority and 15million who abstained or missed an opportunity to say it. The 17.4million is a miscellaneous figure, you need to deduct those who voted the other way... so itâ€™s too small to force this change through and that is being enacted out in the commons, and we will see in the house of lords.

Not the answer you want hear, I know.
		
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Harpo, everyone had an opportunity to vote. If 15 million could not be arsed to vote, why are we even talking about them. Let's not look at those 15 million as innocents that don't or didn't have a voice. Let's look at those 15 million as thick as pigs hit.
I have said this before and I will say it again, throughout this Brexit fiasco, I have never ever sat at the top of the garden with my head in my hands thinking. My house could be taken away from me. I did when they shut my pits, and another 250. I did when 250,000 miners jobs went. And another 250,000 other jobs that supported and relied on mining. When I heard the country was going through a double dip depression, going through years of austerity. You know what Mining was in its own permanent depression from 1984-2015 and who gave a toss. No one. But you know what, you man up, you grit your teeth and you learn to adjust to the demands of a changing business. You multi skill, you travel hundreds of miles a week to and from work. You do what you have to do to put food on your families tables. It what I did, my kids have done, it's what my parents did travelling from Lancashire to Notts. It's what my grandparents did. You adjust.
What you don't do is listen to lying back stabbing politicians from all partys who have there own agendas. Agendas that don't  involve the very fabric of this United Kingdom. That fabric being Democracy.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

Imurg said:



			...
Any animosity, other than that aimed at the pathetic group currently sitting in Westminster, is down to the side that lost the vote not getting behind the decision and working towards obtaining the best possible exit strategy.
If that had happened, both politicians and the general public, we might not be in the mess we are in....
		
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Nah! Dyed-in-the-wool Remainers would certainly have continued to moan, but that happens with any close result. Its Westminster that have caused the current (and greatest) mess!

May probably could have handled things/communicated better, but if Westminster agreed to accept the referendum result, then agreed to enact A50, then I believe it must not now use its 'power' to frustrate the entire process by, effectively, changing its mind and negating those actions!


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			ðŸš®
		
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You completely missed my point - an attempt to 'do irony textually'!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Nah! Dyed-in-the-wool Remainers would certainly have continued to moan, but that happens with any close result. Its Westminster that have caused the current (and greatest) mess!

May probably could have handled things/communicated better, but if Westminster agreed to accept the referendum result, then agreed to enact A50, then I believe it must not now use its 'power' to frustrate the entire process by, effectively, changing its mind and negating those actions!
		
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They also shouldnâ€™t be rushed into or blackmailed into just any deal.
Now we are in this mess we need to stand back and do it properly, and that to me is to either a no deal and we negotiate from fresh or Parliament agrees to talk to each other and keeps talking until we get a deal the majority support.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			They also shouldnâ€™t be rushed into or blackmailed into just any deal.
Now we are in this mess we need to stand back and do it properly, and that to me is to either a no deal and we negotiate from fresh or Parliament agrees to talk to each other and keeps talking until we get a deal the majority support.
		
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As long as 'returning to Remain' of another Leave/Remain referendum is off the table, I'd be fine with that!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What a stupid  chart. There are around 64 million people represented on it, that would indicate every person in the country including children and babes in arms were entitled to a vote.   The turn out in the referendum was the highest number to ever vote so looking at dodgy data like this is plain stupid.  Try harder no gerrymandering will change the FACTS.
		
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Are you deliberately being awkward or are you blinded? Itâ€™s clearly including everyone as â€œthose not on the electoral rollâ€ would include children


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## Dando (Mar 23, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The difference is too small .. this is why there is an issue.
		
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The issue is that those who voted remain canâ€™t accept the result


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## Dando (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Are you deliberately being awkward or are you blinded? Itâ€™s clearly including everyone as â€œthose not on the electoral rollâ€ would include children
		
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thereâ€™s no reason for them to be on there if they arenâ€™t elligible to vote and you could say the same for those that couldnâ€™t be bothered to vote


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2019)

Dando said:



			The issue is that those who voted remain canâ€™t accept the result
		
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No it is not.  Saying every remainer can't accept the result is like saying every leaver is a think gammon racist.  I am sure there are some on both sides, but it is a lot more nuanced than that. There are many who voted remain who would like us to have a withdrawal agreement and leave with the least possible damage. I would argue there are many more who voted remain who are against a no deal then there are who want a second referendum. 

And if the PM is just going to say it's her deal with all the reds lines it entails which does not have the support of parliament or no deal then, in a way that will strengthen the second referendum campaign.  And leavers who want a no deal who just say remainers can't accept the result will encourage that as well.


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2019)

If 16million voted to remain in the EU in 2016 and only 4million have signed the petition to cancel brexit, does that mean the other 12 million have changed their mind and now want to leave?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2019)

bobmac said:



			If 16million voted to remain in the EU in 2016 and only 4million have signed the petition to cancel brexit, does that mean the other 12 million have changed their mind and now want to leave?
		
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No, as mentioned above there are many remainers who see a good deal as the fairest outcome.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2019)

With all these numbers floating about it might be worth adding in a bit more statistical 'noise' London; population 8+mill voted Remain and the big March just needs some of them. to fall out of bed ! The Leave areas would need to spend much more time and money to attend a 'march'. Its of little or no significance in the scheme of things except media hype.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			With all these numbers floating about it might be worth *adding in a bit more statistical 'noise' London; population* *8+mill voted Remain and the big March just needs some of them. to fall out of bed !* The Leave areas would need to spend much more time and money to attend a 'march'. Its of little or no significance in the scheme of things except media hype.
		
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And all the referendum needed was for people with absolutely no knowledge of the subject or it's implications to put their cross on a piece of paper and make one of the most important decisions this nation has ever made in the last few decades. You can desperately try and reduce any event's significance if you want to use clever wordplay.

And for the third time, not all remainers want a second referendum!!  Is that so difficult a concept to grasp?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Are you deliberately being awkward or are you blinded? Itâ€™s clearly including everyone as â€œthose not on the electoral rollâ€ would include children
		
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I think your comments can be turned on yourself.  What's the point of making a pie chart to show  the voting breakdown if it includes people not entitled to. Vote, it's deliberately misleading.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The difference is too small .. this is why there is an issue.
		
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I have said that from the day after the vote.

Leave leader Nigel Farage also said that if the vote was close it would not be the end of it. 
Probably one of his more savvy sayings even if it was when he was blissfully unaware that Leave was winning.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2019)

Played golf today with a couple of guys from Sweden, one of which I've played with several times before. After the round one of them showed me a couple of cartoons in a respectable Swedish newspaper depicting the major players from Brexit and the govt along with an article below. 

Brexit and the govt is a huge joke to them, not a little joke, a huge joke. The article mirrored the cartoons, talking about clowns and a circus and sadly indefensible.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2019)

Just to add to the circus - I see reports that Uri Geller, he of the spoon bending deception, is going to influence the PM by telepathy !!!


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## Mudball (Mar 23, 2019)

Now the lady who started the petition gets death threat. While this is not representative of the Leaver voter, this is getting silly 

Govt as expected ignoring the thousands who are marching and the millions who petitioned


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Now the lady who started the petition gets death threat. While this is not representative of the Leaver voter, this is getting silly

Govt as expected ignoring the thousands who are marching and the millions who petitioned
		
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Or at least has claimed that she has received death threats. All of them conveniently over the phone so no evidence or proof of them being made. 

Also allegations about some posts she has made on Facebook where she has discussed getting a gun and shooting Theresa May. Her response was that she had no memory of the posts and that they must be photoshopped.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Or at least has claimed that she has received death threats. All of them conveniently over the phone so no evidence or proof of them being made.

Also allegations about some posts she has made on Facebook where she has discussed getting a gun and shooting Theresa May. Her response was that she had no memory of the posts and that they must be photoshopped.
		
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Must be those Russians again ... if it wasnâ€™t for the internet we wouldnâ€™t have their pesky meddling ðŸ˜Ž


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Now the lady who started the petition gets death threat. While this is not representative of the Leaver voter, this is getting silly

Govt as *expected ignoring the thousands* who are marching and the millions who petitioned
		
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I'd be interested to know what you'd expect any government to do. 

Macron has tried to appease French demonstrators and that's got him nowhere. All it achieves is to generate even more 'marches' and anarchy soon prevails as any minority group decides that rather than using democratic systems they'll just protest and get their way.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			They also shouldnâ€™t be rushed into or blackmailed into just any deal.
Now we are in this mess we need to stand back and do it properly, and that to me is to either a no deal and we negotiate from fresh or Parliament agrees to talk to each other and keeps talking until we get a deal the majority support.
		
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Well, the latter choice 'ain't gonna happen' however much time is allocated!

And the 'rushed/blackmailed' approach was, imo, entirely the EU's planned approach! Though 'simply intransigent' would be a better description imo. Negotiating afresh was always likely after their initial statements that the 'deal' was solely about establishing borders. There was nothing 'deal' related that wasn't about that. Everything about subsequent 'relationship' was deferred until 'deal' was ratified!

I'm certain many, if not most, of UK folk eligible to vote actually believe that a 'deal' of some sort - that includes an ongoing relationship -has been agreed. But the only thing that has been agreed - and still not ratified by Parliament (actually The Commons! The Lords would likely have shown much better 'tact' imo) - has been the Withdrawal Agreement - as required by Article 50, so not surprising to me! There is still an enormous amount of work to be done, fortunately by Civil Servants whose role is to quietly do exactly that, as opposed to MPs whose particular 'skills' are totally unrelated to negotiating the likes of Trade deals, synchronisation of Standards etc!

Oh and Btw. We were 'in this mess' as soon as the referendum result was announced - or, perhaps, even as soon as the referendum was called!


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## Fade and Die (Mar 23, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The difference is too small .. this is why there is an issue.
		
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Some of the votes the week before last in parliament were only carried by a few votes, in one case the majority was just 2! 
Guess what though? No one said â€œoh itâ€™s too tight and some people might have changed their mind, letâ€™s have another goâ€ the result was accepted, as it should be in a democracy. The actions the remainers want to carry out would not be out of place in a banana republic.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			And all the referendum needed was for people with absolutely no knowledge of the subject or it's implications to put their cross on a piece of paper and make one of the most important decisions this nation has ever made in the last few decades. You can desperately try and reduce any event's significance if you want to use clever wordplay.
		
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That's 'democracy' for you!



Hacker Khan said:



			And for the third time, not all remainers want a second referendum!!  Is that so difficult a concept to grasp?
		
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I can 100% agree with that!
Those that do are, imo, trying to hi-jack 'democracy'! But, in a democracy, that's their right!


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			...The actions the remainers want to carry out would not be out of place in a banana republic.
		
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No! A 'banana republic' would have been far more focused on its 'single product'! UK as a 'complete' nation has a vast array of aspects to manage!


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2019)

I'm a bit intrigued by the practicalities of the numerous suggestions...

Indicative Votes - what are the options that have not been the subject of Amendments/
How are the options to be ranked, or order of voting. Perhaps it just a menu !!
Will the EU accept the 'Options'

A second referendum is time consuming and the questions are very problematic (unless you want to stitch up the outcome!)

The idea we can replace the PM but it will change next to beggar all. The 'executive powers' of government have been taken away by Miller's case. MP's have undermined the negotiations via Twitter and silly amendments so its been convenient to blame the PM. BUT a change in personality will not change the EU stance of not re-opening the WA and/or the backstop wrangle. An election is unlikely to yield a majority government - so back to square 1.

Unfortunately we are where we are and IMO nothing less than a "No Deal" leaving will now enable a sufficiently clean break to allow any future relationship to be formulated that is not tainted by this debacle.  Both the UK and the EU need to 'stare down the barrel' and realise the true impact. The R27 have had time to see what the impact will be on their countries and IMO would pressurise for a more collaborative style of negotiation to the benefit of all. World economies are suffering and much different now than they were in 2015/6.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm a bit intrigued by the practicalities of the numerous suggestions...

Indicative Votes - what are the options that have not been the subject of Amendments/
How are the options to be ranked, or order of voting. Perhaps it just a menu !!
Will the EU accept the 'Options'

A second referendum is time consuming and the questions are very problematic (unless you want to stitch up the outcome!)

The idea we can replace the PM but it will change next to beggar all. The 'executive powers' of government have been taken away by Miller's case. MP's have undermined the negotiations via Twitter and silly amendments so its been convenient to blame the PM. BUT a change in personality will not change the EU stance of not re-opening the WA and/or the backstop wrangle. An election is unlikely to yield a majority government - so back to square 1.

Unfortunately we are where we are and IMO nothing less than a "No Deal" leaving will now enable a sufficiently clean break to allow any future relationship to be formulated that is not tainted by this debacle.  Both the UK and the EU need to 'stare down the barrel' and realise the true impact. The R27 have had time to see what the impact will be on their countries and IMO would pressurise for a more collaborative style of negotiation to the benefit of all. World economies are suffering and much different now than they were in 2015/6.
		
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Absolutely, totally, indubitably correct!


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## Fade and Die (Mar 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm a bit intrigued by the practicalities of the numerous suggestions...

Indicative Votes - what are the options that have not been the subject of Amendments/
How are the options to be ranked, or order of voting. Perhaps it just a menu !!
Will the EU accept the 'Options'

A second referendum is time consuming and the questions are very problematic (unless you want to stitch up the outcome!)

The idea we can replace the PM but it will change next to beggar all. The 'executive powers' of government have been taken away by Miller's case. MP's have undermined the negotiations via Twitter and silly amendments so its been convenient to blame the PM. BUT a change in personality will not change the EU stance of not re-opening the WA and/or the backstop wrangle. An election is unlikely to yield a majority government - so back to square 1.

Unfortunately we are where we are and IMO nothing less than a "No Deal" leaving will now enable a sufficiently clean break to allow any future relationship to be formulated that is not tainted by this debacle.  Both the UK and the EU need to 'stare down the barrel' and realise the true impact. The R27 have had time to see what the impact will be on their countries and IMO would pressurise for a more collaborative style of negotiation to the benefit of all. World economies are suffering and much different now than they were in 2015/6.
		
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I think your last paragraph is absolutely spot on, sadly there is no common sense left in the debate,  Itâ€™s polarised people mainly along party lines and now no one wants to give an inch.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Now the lady who started the petition gets death threat. While this is not representative of the Leaver voter, this is getting silly

Govt as expected ignoring the thousands who are marching and the millions who petitioned
		
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Its a tough one to reconcile. How do you appease the 3.xxx that signed a petition and the 100,000's of thousands marchers? You could say, "ok we'll do it your way."

But what about the 17.xx million that voted Leave? Do you give way to 3.xxx million in favour of 17.xx million?

I don't know what the right answer is but doing nothing isn't it.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Some of the votes the week before last in parliament were only carried by a few votes, in one case the majority was just 2!
Guess what though? No one said â€œoh itâ€™s too tight and some people might have changed their mind, letâ€™s have another goâ€ the result was accepted, as it should be in a democracy. The actions the remainers want to carry out would not be out of place in a banana republic.
		
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Amen to that brother.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'd be interested to know what you'd expect any government to do.

Macron has tried to appease French demonstrators and that's got him nowhere. All it achieves is to generate even more 'marches' and anarchy soon prevails as any minority group decides that rather than using democratic systems they'll just protest and get their way.
		
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Today is the 19th consecutive Saturday of marches in Paris. The mayor of Paris has said that the army will be on the streets and does have the authority to shoot if they feel threatened.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough one to reconcile. How do you appease the 3.xxx that signed a petition and the 100,000's of thousands marchers? You could say, "ok we'll do it your way."

But what about the 17.xx million that voted Leave? Do you give way to 3.xxx million in favour of 17.xx million?

I don't know what the right answer is but doing nothing isn't it.
		
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I donâ€™t think there is a â€œrightâ€ answer anymore - i donâ€™t think there is anyway that is going to find a common ground - itâ€™s all got too nasty , a 77 year old woman getting death threats ? 

Thatâ€™s one very big march even more so when you compare it to the one organised by Brexiteers ?

I really donâ€™t know whatâ€™s going to happen but if it means that we donâ€™t leave the EU or this deal then the aftermath isnâ€™t going to be nice 

Maybe they will end up cancelling it with a view to having another vote ? People maybe are a bit more informed now ?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough one to reconcile. How do you appease the 3.xxx that signed a petition and the 100,000's of thousands marchers? You could say, "ok we'll do it your way."

But what about the 17.xx million that voted Leave? Do you give way to 3.xxx million in favour of 17.xx million?

I don't know what the right answer is but doing nothing isn't it.
		
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For me Hobbit the waters have been conveniently muddied by the remainers. The vote was to stay In the EU or not. End of.

All this talk of a " deal" has hijacked and helped the remain cause to well remain.

To be quiet Frank, to not leave destroys the very foundation of what this country is all about. Democracy. It is a political establishment that goes back centuries and has served this country well. It is the same political establishment that this country has passed onto its colonies when granted independence. If we cannot respect the outcome of a vote, what credibility do we give or get from the other countries that follow our electoral system. All because some people don't like it, they don't like the result. It's pathetic.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			With all these numbers floating about it might be worth adding in a bit more statistical 'noise' London; population 8+mill voted Remain and the big March just needs some of them. to fall out of bed ! The Leave areas would need to spend much more time and money to attend a 'march'. Its of little or no significance in the scheme of things except media hype.
		
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Quite a lot of Scots are there, but I suppose that does not figure in your story.
Nicola got a big cheer BTW.
Lady Doon just saying some have queued for hours just to start the march.
My grandaughter had to persuade her mother not to go [from the Scottish Borders] because she feared for her mothers safety.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I donâ€™t think there is a â€œrightâ€ answer anymore - i donâ€™t think there is anyway that is going to find a common ground - itâ€™s all got too nasty , a 77 year old woman getting death threats ?

Thatâ€™s one very big march even more so when you compare it to the one organised by Brexiteers ?

I really donâ€™t know whatâ€™s going to happen but if it means that we donâ€™t leave the EU or this deal then the aftermath isnâ€™t going to be nice

Maybe they will end up cancelling it with a view to having another vote ? People maybe are a bit more informed now ?
		
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Not saying youâ€™re wrong Phil but what is the threshold for more informed? Itâ€™s subjective. If Leave won again would we see another 3 years of arguments until weâ€™re even more, more, more informed?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			tbf i usually ignore what you write as its obviously copy and pasted from somewhere else.
		
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I'm guessing you've never met Brian? One of the most erudite and level headed people you are ever likely to meet.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I donâ€™t think there is a â€œrightâ€ answer anymore - i donâ€™t think there is anyway that is going to find a common ground - itâ€™s all got too nasty , a 77 year old woman getting death threats ? 

Thatâ€™s one very big march even more so when you compare it to the one organised by Brexiteers ?

I really donâ€™t know whatâ€™s going to happen but if it means that we donâ€™t leave the EU or this deal then the aftermath isnâ€™t going to be nice 

Maybe they will end up cancelling it with a view to having another vote ? People maybe are a bit more informed now ?
		
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Bexiters don't need to march, the achieved their aim by gaining a result in a referendum (trying not to use won-as it appears to offend some). We stupidly thought that getting the result meant that the result would be carried out by those in power who promised to honour the result, they even said they would and we stupidly believed them.

As to threats to an old lady over the phone, I don't know if it's true or not, but she needs to be more careful who she gives her phone number to.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quite a lot of Scots are there, but I suppose that does not figure in your story.
Nicola got a big cheer BTW.
Lady Doon just saying some have queued for hours just to start the march.
My grandaughter had to persuade her mother not to go [from the Scottish Borders] because she feared for her mothers safety.
		
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Have a day off with the inferred anti-Scotland digs - I have absolutely no axe to grind with Scotland so don't bother trying to suggest I have..

You'll no doubt like the fact that Gina Miller, that self appointed expert in world economics, government and statistics has declared, on the basis of a march (significant I'll admit) that the UK has changed its mind!


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## Fade and Die (Mar 23, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			For me Hobbit the waters have been conviniantly muddied by the remainers. The vote was to stay In the EU or not. End of.

All this talk of a " deal" has hijacked and helped the remain cause to well remain.

To be quiet Frank, to not leave destroys the very foundation of what this country is all about. Democracy. It is a political establishment that goes back centuries and has served this country well. It is the same political establishment that this country has passed onto its colonies when granted independence. If we cannot respect the outcome of a vote, what credibility do we give or get from the other countries that follow our electoral system. All because some people don't like it, they don't like the result. It's pathetic.
		
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100% right. Meanwhile some of the remainers are conducting themselves in a manner so undemocratic as to make the over-medaled dictator of a south-American junta blush with shame.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quite a lot of Scots are there, but I suppose that does not figure in your story.
Nicola got a big cheer BTW.
Lady Doon just saying some have queued for hours just to start the march.
My grandaughter had to persuade her mother not to go [from the Scottish Borders] because she feared for her mothers safety.
		
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Quite a lot of Scots live around and in London.


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## Mudball (Mar 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The actions the remainers want to carry out would not be out of place in a *banana* republic.
		
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Hopefully that is a not a Bendy banana.. or else wonâ€™t be allowed by the EU overlords ðŸ¤©


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My grandaughter had to persuade her mother not to go [from the Scottish Borders] because she feared for her mothers safety.
		
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A likely story especially as according to many of your posts, most of your family come from everywhere but Scotland.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Not saying youâ€™re wrong Phil but what is the threshold for more informed? Itâ€™s subjective. If Leave won again would we see another 3 years of arguments until weâ€™re even more, more, more informed?
		
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I donâ€™t know what the threshold is - I thought leaving would be a minefield , some thought it would be easy - itâ€™s looking like a complete nightmare because we clearly are so involved within the EU it surely wasnâ€™t going to be easy. I donâ€™t know what would happen if there was another vote ? Would it be the same result ? Christ knows - polls would say it wouldnâ€™t but then polls said it would be a remain win anyway.

Maybe this time the campaigns from either side would be more based on the truth - no project fear and no empty promises about where money would go , maybe people wouldnâ€™t put their trust into people who then walked away ? 

Obviously I have my choice on what I want to see because of the affect on Ireland and we have a lot of major business with them and we canâ€™t have a hard border 


Just need to find a way to stop all the battling


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Bexiters don't need to march, the achieved their aim by gaining a result in a referendum (trying not to use won-as it appears to offend some). We stupidly thought that getting the result meant that the result would be carried out by those in power who promised to honour the result, they even said they would and we stupidly believed them.

*As to threats to an old lady over the phone, I don't know if it's true or not, but she needs to be more careful who she gives her phone number to.*

Click to expand...

Why are â€œBrexiteersâ€ marching then ? 

And the highlighted bit is such a poor statement - no condemnation of the calls and the threats but more pointing the blame at the lady - unless you are ex directory it doesnâ€™t take much to find a number. Really disappointing comment


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are â€œBrexiteersâ€ marching then ? 

And the highlighted bit is such a poor statement - no condemnation of the calls and the threats but more pointing the blame at the lady - unless you are ex directory it doesnâ€™t take much to find a number. Really disappointing comment
		
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I condemn it out of hand, but that would be a natural cause for a normal person. I don't need to express it on a forum full of mostly sensible people.

As to the so called Brexiteers march, Farrage is toxic and anyone who goes near him is rightly or wrongly accused of all sorts of nasty things and as previously stated, why would I need to march, I thought my vote was good enough.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 23, 2019)

I'm not hearing anything positive about any European economies, ours seems to be doing better than all other countries. But if people want to give away our wealth to prop up other failing countries then so be it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I'm not hearing anything positive about any European economies, ours seems to be doing better than all other countries. But if people want to give away our wealth to prop up other failing countries then so be it.
		
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Could it be possible be that the UK economy is good because we are still enjoying the joint benefits of being in the EU.


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## PieMan (Mar 23, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Govt as expected ignoring the thousands who are marching and the millions who petitioned
		
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I'm sorry but the Government has every right to ignore the thousands who are matching and the millions that petitioned as it's the 17.4 million who actually voted to leave the EU who need to be respected.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Could it be possible be that the UK economy be good because we are still enjoying the joint benefits of being in the EU.
		
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If that was the case wouldn't the other 27 EU countries be doing well. Just a thought


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			If that was the case wouldn't the other 27 EU countries be doing well. Just a thought
		
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No, because EU membership allowed you to have a lot of autonomy and control of your own domestic economy whilst also enjoying the benefits of easy trading relationships with 27 other countries. Allegedly.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Could it be possible be that the UK economy be good because we are still enjoying the joint benefits of being in the EU.
		
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No.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I'm guessing you've never met Brian? One of the most erudite and level headed people you are ever likely to meet.
		
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You missed also a dab hand at ctrl+c and ctrl+v


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I donâ€™t know what the threshold is - I thought leaving would be a minefield , some thought it would be easy - itâ€™s looking like a complete nightmare because we clearly are so involved within the EU it surely wasnâ€™t going to be easy. I donâ€™t know what would happen if there was another vote ? Would it be the same result ? Christ knows - polls would say it wouldnâ€™t but then polls said it would be a remain win anyway.

Maybe this time the campaigns from either side would be more based on the truth - no project fear and no empty promises about where money would go , maybe people wouldnâ€™t put their trust into people who then walked away ?

Obviously I have my choice on what I want to see because of the affect on Ireland and we have a lot of major business with them and we canâ€™t have a hard border


Just need to find a way to stop all the battling
		
Click to expand...

Are you so naive to believe another referendum build up would not have the same old mud slinging, project fear and reinforce/increase divisions in society.  The last thing this country needs right now is another round of politicians squabbling with each other.  It's a really poor idea.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You missed also a dab hand at ctrl+c and ctrl+v
		
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You really are a silly boy, he holds more respect on this forum than you ever could.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			No, because EU membership allowed you to have a lot of autonomy and control of your own domestic economy whilst also enjoying the benefits of easy trading relationships with 27 other countries. Allegedly.
		
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And the other 27 countries also had these benefits as well so why are many of them having failed economies.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2019)

Parliament voted in favour of the referendum.
They voted in favour of  invoking article 50.
They stood on platforms in a general election to respect the outcome of the referendum.

What kind of Democrats are they to frustrate the outcome of the referendum now.

All this balderdash about people understanding more now as a reason for another referendum are weasel words and a sad reflection of how spineless many have become.  

If anyone accuses me of finger pointing I would like to confirm they are indeed correct.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You really are a silly boy, he holds more respect on this forum than you ever could.
		
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Is there a shrug emoji?


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## Slime (Mar 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You missed also a dab hand at ctrl+c and ctrl+v
		
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Sometimes you should think before you post, you do yourself no favours at times.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2019)

Slime said:









Sometimes you should think before you post, you do yourself no favours at times.
		
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Engage!
Make it so.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			No it is not.  Saying every remainer can't accept the result is like saying every leaver is a think gammon racist.  I am sure there are some on both sides, but it is a lot more nuanced than that. There are many who voted remain who would like us to have a withdrawal agreement and leave with the least possible damage. I would argue there are many more who voted remain who are against a no deal then there are who want a second referendum.

And if the PM is just going to say it's her deal with all the reds lines it entails which does not have the support of parliament or no deal then, in a way that will strengthen the second referendum campaign.  And leavers who want a no deal who just say remainers can't accept the result will encourage that as well.
		
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This is no place to talking good sense!


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough one to reconcile. How do you appease the 3.xxx that signed a petition and the 100,000's of thousands marchers? You could say, "ok we'll do it your way."

But what about the 17.xx million that voted Leave? Do you give way to 3.xxx million in favour of 17.xx million?

I don't know what the right answer is *but doing nothing isn't it*.
		
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Actually (virtually) doing nothing - actually carrying on in spite of the minority, but noisy, opposition - is exactly what should be happening!


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Quite a lot of Scots live around and in London.
		
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And I know several that are 'bludging' off the wealth that that part of the world generates!

FWIW, my 'heritage' is Scottish (and German from a previous generation) but I'm no bludger!

As far as I can recall, most of Doon's career was spent harvesting funds in England; but now that's over, he wants the (mythical imo) benefits of 'independence' for Scotland! Sorry, but, imo, that's a blatant attempt to 'have your cake and eat it too'!


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And the other 27 countries also had these benefits as well so why are many of them having failed economies.
		
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Because - as HK satatd 'EU membership allowed you to have* a lot of autonomy and control of your own domestic economy whilst also enjoying the benefits....'*


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## IainP (Mar 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And there are millions that wanted to Leave. They won the vote that they were told would be honoured.

There is a difference between losing and the connotations youâ€™re applying to being a loser. In that respect youâ€™re looking for something that isnâ€™t there.

Both sides are pointing fingers. Right from Day 1 many Remainers have squealed unfair, too close, compromise. Leavers have shouted out means out, and have become increasingly frustrated by a Remain PM selling them short.

I donâ€™t think Leave will happen at all. In my opinion, on such a close vote, which ever party takes the U.K. out of the EU risks losing a shed load of Remain voters. Iâ€™ll put money on it not happening without a second referendum, which Remain will win 60/40. And the the Tories will save face by saying the people decided.
		
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I agree with those saying that this issue drives high emotions for many on both sides of the argument,  and that whatever happens over next few months the wounds will not heal for a long time.

Like you I feel like the wind is blowing towards a 2nd ref. I think how hard it actually would be to leave is still subjective,  but our elected representatives have definitely made it appear hard. Along with a high proportion of people with tv time being obsessed with "crashing" & "cliff edges" I also think a 2nd ref would move to the remain side.

The stewards enquiry into 1st ref called out the remain campaign not spending enough time articulating the benefits of being in the EU. I am not sure too much has changed since but maybe that will come.
I think in the immediate aftermath the amount of lazy comments and journalism placing labels on leave voters set the tone  for how the debate has gone since which was a shame.

Anyway unless LP has a time machine in his shed,  it's happened and the country can't go back. 
As the old saying goes;
S**t happens, you can't change but you can decide how you deal with it.

Whatever transpires,  as a country we need to.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2019)

If we must hold another vote so be it as long as it is fairly constructed and unbiased.

However if we stay in the EU be prepared to be well and truly shafted - even more than we have been. Remember a member's contribution is based on economic performance and the UK is outperforming the others and with Germany sliding into recession plus the EU debt is out of control and unsustainable and Brussels want to raise its budget.

You can bet the media will just be UK centric.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

IainP said:



			I agree with those saying that this issue drives high emotions for many on both sides of the argument,  and that whatever happens over next few months the wounds will not heal for a long time.

Like you I feel like the wind is blowing towards a 2nd ref. I think how hard it actually would be to leave is still subjective,  but our elected representatives have definitely made it appear hard. Along with a high proportion of people with tv time being obsessed with "crashing" & "cliff edges" I also think a 2nd ref would move to the remain side.

The stewards enquiry into 1st ref called out the remain campaign not spending enough time articulating the benefits of being in the EU. I am not sure too much has changed since but maybe that will come.
I think in the immediate aftermath the amount of lazy comments and journalism placing labels on leave voters set the tone  for how the debate has gone since which was a shame.

Anyway unless LP has a time machine in his shed,  it's happened and the country can't go back.
As the old saying goes;
S**t happens, you can't change but you can decide how you deal with it.

Whatever transpires,  as a country we need to.
		
Click to expand...

IMO, what has really happened was that while Leave campaigners were easily able to 'advertise' the 'disadvantages' of being a (contributing) member and the 'advantages of leaving, the Remain campaign struggled to convince the public that the benefits of membership exceeded those disadvantages.

Now that the actual crunch has come, the 'campaign' to Remain has become more agressive, even though it *might* still be in a minority. Had it done so before the referendum, I'm pretty sure the result would have been different - t was that close. But that's no t a compelling reason, at least imo, to demand another referendum! 

Basically, they had their chance and didn't get their message across well enough! So take the hit and move on! It's not goingf to be the disaster Remain predict, though there will be some short term pain - and opportunities!


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			If we must hold another vote so be it as long as it is fairly constructed and unbiased.

However if we stay in the EU be prepared to be well and truly shafted - even more than we have been. Remember a member's contribution is based on economic performance and the UK is outperforming the others and with Germany sliding into recession plus the EU debt is out of control and unsustainable and Brussels want to raise its budget.

You can bet the media will just be UK centric.
		
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Seems depressingly negative!


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Seems depressingly negative!
		
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Yup because I think it will be a really bad move to remain in a group that most international financial analysts believe is on borrowed time. Kept afloat by debt.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			IMO, what has really happened was that while Leave campaigners were easily able to 'advertise' the 'disadvantages' of being a (contributing) member and the 'advantages of leaving, the Remain campaign struggled to convince the public that the benefits of membership exceeded those disadvantages.

Now that the actual crunch has come, the 'campaign' to Remain has become more agressive, even though it *might* still be in a minority. Had it done so before the referendum, I'm pretty sure the result would have been different - t was that close. But that's no t a compelling reason, at least imo, to demand another referendum!

Basically, they had their chance and didn't get their message across well enough! So take the hit and move on! It's not goingf to be the disaster Remain predict, though there will be some short term pain - and opportunities!
		
Click to expand...

Did you watch brexit an uncivil war? Showing how the leave campaign used a technique not used before with targeted online campaigning which was just an experiment by a company to see if it could actually work? Our system reduced to a company experimenting? They were happy for either side to use this tech to have 5 million or so votes normally not targeted during a campaign just to see if it would work

Give it a watch itâ€™s a real eye opener[/QUOTE]


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Did you watch brexit an uncivil war? Showing how the leave campaign used a technique not used before with targeted online campaigning which was just an experiment by a company to see if it could actually work? Our system reduced to a company experimenting? They were happy for either side to use this tech to have 5 million or so votes normally not targeted during a campaign just to see if it would work

*Give it a watch *itâ€™s a real eye opener
		
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[/QUOTE]

Brexit overload - I'm thinking the PGA Valspar might be more  fun to watch.....


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Did you watch brexit an uncivil war? Showing how the leave campaign used a technique not used before with targeted online campaigning which was just an experiment by a company to see if it could actually work? Our system reduced to a company experimenting? They were happy for either side to use this tech to have 5 million or so votes normally not targeted during a campaign just to see if it would work

Give it a watch itâ€™s a real eye opener
		
Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

This has been done to death on here before. Huge numbers of people never saw these adverts or were not influenced by them. Itâ€™s a non story unless youâ€™re a straw grabbing remainer.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 23, 2019)

Iâ€™m actually quite taken by the idea of a second referendum; about 40 years after we implement the result of the first  one.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			This has been done to death on here before. Huge numbers of people never saw these adverts or were not influenced by them. Itâ€™s a non story unless youâ€™re a straw grabbing remainer.
		
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5 million in the scheme of the country wouldnâ€™t be considered a lot but itâ€™s enough

Itâ€™s not straw grabbing. Itâ€™s a fact that it was an underhand expierement by a company to test a system


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Did you watch brexit an uncivil war? Showing how the leave campaign used a technique not used before with targeted online campaigning which was just an experiment by a company to see if it could actually work? Our system reduced to a company experimenting? They were happy for either side to use this tech to have 5 million or so votes normally not targeted during a campaign just to see if it would work

Give it a watch itâ€™s a real eye opener
		
Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

Did the people make their brexit decision based on campaigns, leaflets through the door, writing on a bus and newspaper/MSM? 

Didnâ€™t people make up their own mind? Itâ€™d be a real eye opener if people voted based on biased information from media sources.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			5 million in the scheme of the country wouldnâ€™t be considered a lot but itâ€™s enough

Itâ€™s not straw grabbing. Itâ€™s a fact that it was an underhand expierement by a company to test a system
		
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Your last sentence may be a fact, what is not a fact is that it influenced the result; there is actually no way to prove that hence itâ€™s no more of a story than the Chancellor telling us that weâ€™d all be 4 grand a year worse off. You donâ€™t seem to be bringing that one back up...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Your last sentence may be a fact, what is not a fact is that it influenced the result; there is actually no way to prove that hence itâ€™s no more of a story than the Chancellor telling us that weâ€™d all be 4 grand a year worse off. You donâ€™t seem to be bringing that one back up...
		
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Has that been proven to be incorrect yet? We are hardly going to be better off.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Has that been proven to be incorrect yet? *We are hardly going to be better off.*

Click to expand...

That cant be proven right or wrong until the country leaves the EU - we could end up being better off - its all unknown whcih way it goes


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Has that been proven to be incorrect yet? We are hardly going to be better off.
		
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He said it would happen immediately following the vote.  That has just not happened.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He said it would happen immediately following the vote.  That has just not happened.
		
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Many people have lost money

My boss lost 40k overnight. He was selling his house in uk and buying one in Ireland and the price of the pound dropped dramatically.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He said it would happen immediately following the vote.  That has just not happened.
		
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Not forgetting the emergency budget which would be needed and the massive rise in unemployment in the event of a Leave vote. Neither of which happened either.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Is there a shrug emoji?
		
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No but some others are apt ðŸ™„ ðŸ˜´ ðŸ¤¡


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## Beezerk (Mar 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			Yup because I think it will be a really bad move to remain in a group that most international financial analysts believe is on borrowed time. Kept afloat by debt.
		
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Hypothetically if another EU country were to go bust next week, a bit like Greece did a few years ago, how do you think that would change the mood of the UK as a whole?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not forgetting the emergency budget which would be needed and the massive rise in unemployment in the event of a Leave vote. Neither of which happened either.
		
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Easy to have people in employment in the era of zero hour contracts ....


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Many people have lost money

My boss lost 40k overnight. He was selling his house in uk and buying one in Ireland and the price of the pound dropped dramatically.
		
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 We are talking about Osborne's Â£4500 worse off per household immediately following the vote not your bosses house.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And the other 27 countries also had these benefits as well so why are many of them having failed economies.
		
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You do realise that the fact that the countries in the EU have different economies which is driven by their internal economic policies is forwarding the argument that there is minimal federalism going on in the EU don't you?  Different countries can take advantage of good trading relationships with other countries without them all having the same economy.


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## User62651 (Mar 23, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Hypothetically if another EU country were to go bust next week, a bit like Greece did a few years ago, how do you think that would change the mood of the UK as a whole?
		
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Gammon would laugh, remainers would help out.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Many people have lost money

*My boss lost 40k overnight*. He was selling his house in uk and buying one in Ireland and the price of the pound dropped dramatically.
		
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His own fault! Because he foolishly didn't hedge against the possibility of that happening! Or expected/bet a Remain win! BVtw. He didn't actually lose 40k either! The house in Ireland simply (would) cost him 40k more! He didn't need to buy it!


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## Mudball (Mar 23, 2019)

Loads of funny one at the march today..


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Easy to have people in employment in the era of zero hour contracts ....
		
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Zero hours contracts have been around for years, certainly from well before the referendum so are irrelevant to the argument. The announcement was that there would be a massive rise in unemployment if we voted to Leave the EU. That simply didn't happen but as it doesn't suit your argument you ignore it.

Also a prediction of a 2p rise in basic rate income tax , 3p on higher rate and Â£30 billion of tax rises and spending cuts. These things simply didn't happen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36534192

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...it-suisse-employment-job-hiring-a7136541.html


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Easy to have people in employment in the era of zero hour contracts ....
		
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Can you produce any evidence that that's what happened?


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## Dando (Mar 23, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Loads of funny one at the march today..

View attachment 26901

Click to expand...

But 52% still wins no matter how much you whinge and whine about it


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## IainP (Mar 23, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Did you watch brexit an uncivil war? Showing how the leave campaign used a technique not used before with targeted online campaigning which was just an experiment by a company to see if it could actually work? Our system reduced to a company experimenting? They were happy for either side to use this tech to have 5 million or so votes normally not targeted during a campaign just to see if it would work

Give it a watch itâ€™s a real eye opener
		
Click to expand...

Did you watch Downton Abbey also? ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Loads of funny one at the march today..

View attachment 26901

Click to expand...

I agree, a few hundred thousand of them ðŸ‘


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			His own fault! Because he foolishly didn't hedge against the possibility of that happening! Or expected/bet a Remain win! BVtw. He didn't actually lose 40k either! The house in Ireland simply (would) cost him 40k more! He didn't need to buy it!
		
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I said that to him. His choice but he kinda needs somewhere to live as he lives over there


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## Mudball (Mar 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That cant be proven right or wrong until the country leaves the EU - we could end up being better off - its all unknown whcih way it goes
		
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True.. letâ€™s hope we will be better off outside. In worst case, if we lose out, should we rejoin the EU?


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## Beezerk (Mar 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Gammon would laugh, remainers would help out.
		
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Ha ha Gammon?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And I know several that are 'bludging' off the wealth that that part of the world generates!

FWIW, my 'heritage' is Scottish (and German from a previous generation) but I'm no bludger!

As far as I can recall, most of Doon's career was spent harvesting funds in England; but now that's over, he wants the (mythical imo) benefits of 'independence' for Scotland! Sorry, but, imo, that's a blatant attempt to 'have your cake and eat it too'!
		
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You do realise that folk will always gravitate to were the biggest salaries/opportunities are. In my case golf in Surrey aged 21.
Quite a few unionist supporting English folk working in the oil industry in NE Scotland to counter your views.

For what it is worth I joined the SNP 19 years after I returned to Scotland, after my English wife persuaded me it was a decent option.
Before then I was more of a Vow man until Cameron and Milliband removed that option.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Many people have lost money

My boss lost 40k overnight. He was selling his house in uk and buying one in Ireland and the price of the pound dropped dramatically.
		
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Is that the price of the pound that had been artificially inflated on the presumption of a Remain win at the polls; that price?


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## IanM (Mar 24, 2019)

Heard a good one tonight...

Remainers had no idea what they were voting for...

Current level of federalism?
Full Federalism?
Reformed EU?
The return of the Common Market as at 1975 Referendum?
Failed comedian in drag as president?

But keep taking trade...... surest way of making a recession is to say one is coming


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## harpo_72 (Mar 24, 2019)

IanM said:



			But keep taking trade...... surest way of making a recession is to say one is coming
		
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Or allow the Tories to control economic policy ...


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## Foxholer (Mar 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You do realise that folk will always gravitate to were the biggest salaries/opportunities are. In my case golf in Surrey aged 21.
...
		
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You failed to notice (or ignored) my different terms - 'bludging' (Antipodean expression: shirk responsibility and live off the efforts of others) is not he same as 'harvesting', which is how I described your (and my) move to England!



Doon frae Troon said:



			...
Quite a few unionist supporting English folk working in the oil industry in NE Scotland...
		
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Another example of 'harvesting' - not 'bludging'!


Doon frae Troon said:



			...to counter your views.
...
		
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I didn't actually express 'a view'! Simply pointed out some facts!


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## IanM (Mar 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Or allow the Tories to control economic policy ...
		
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You should source a matrix comparing economic indicators following change of government since WW2.....


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## Fade and Die (Mar 24, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Ha ha Gammon?
		
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Remainers think all Leavers are Pigs. Itâ€™s a common slur on LBC (thatâ€™s a radio station btw)


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Remainers think all Leavers are Pigs. Itâ€™s a common slur on LBC (thatâ€™s a radio station btw)
		
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Not at all. Itâ€™s been around longer than the leave campaign 
A gammon is a middle aged white man whoâ€™s red in and face and raging 

2012 it was first used

Itâ€™s been used now to discribe Brexiteers because of the anger involved when they shout at MPs


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## Fade and Die (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Not at all. Itâ€™s been around longer than the leave campaign
*A gammon is a middle aged white man whoâ€™s red in and face and raging*

2012 it was first used

Itâ€™s been used now to discribe Brexiteers because of the anger involved when they shout at MPs
		
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So *it is* a comparison to a pig? if its not please explain.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So *it is* a comparison to a pig? if its not please explain.
		
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You said that remainers think all leavers are pigs. Thatâ€™s the mistake I was pointing out.....


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So *it is* a comparison to a pig? if its not please explain.
		
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It is as much calling someone a pig as is calling someone who is a bit over weight 'porky'. Yes there is some porcine based detail in there, but if you think it is calling people pigs then you are a bit snowflakey and looking for offence . If you can say that nowadays.

The main complaint was that the term was racist, not pigist. https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2018/05/14/gammon-people-unhappy-11-responses/

And there are one or two potty mouthed words in this article.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			You said that remainers think all leavers are pigs. Thatâ€™s the mistake I was pointing out.....
		
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Hacker Khan said:



			It is as much calling someone a pig as is calling someone who is a bit over weight 'porky'. Yes there is some porcine based detail in there, but if you think it is calling people pigs then you are a bit snowflakey and looking for offence . If you can say that nowadays.

The main complaint was that the term was racist, not pigist. https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2018/05/14/gammon-people-unhappy-11-responses/

And there are one or two potty mouthed words in this article.
		
Click to expand...


Thatâ€™s what I thought, it is a porcine based jibe. I honestly couldnâ€™t care a less, and will leave childish names to the children. ðŸ‘

(But if there was a reciprocal barb for the democracy deniers what do you think it would be? Ratters? ðŸ˜œ)


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

Chancellor Philip Hammond has told Sky News a 'no-deal' Brexit would cause "catastrophic economic dislocation in the short term" and in the longer term leave Britain with a "smaller economy" and "poorer as a nation relative to our neighbours in the European Union"

Thatâ€™s 2 chancelers on the spin saying it will leave us worse off? Must be a conspiracy


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## harpo_72 (Mar 24, 2019)

IanM said:



			You should source a matrix comparing economic indicators following change of government since WW2.....
		
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Data point is 80s onwards for me as it is more applicable. 
Not a believer in flogging the family jewels to stay in hock.. which is the modern aristocratic way.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Chancellor Philip Hammond has told Sky News a 'no-deal' Brexit would cause "catastrophic economic dislocation in the short term" and in the longer term leave Britain with a "smaller economy" and "poorer as a nation relative to our neighbours in the European Union"

Thatâ€™s 2 chancelers on the spin saying it will leave us worse off? Must be a conspiracy
		
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Project Fear ! Leave means leave! Your making it up, objective data doesnâ€™t count, entrenched opinion based on whimsical history only counts .. I have fairies down the end of my garden. ðŸ¤£


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Chancellor Philip Hammond has told Sky News a 'no-deal' Brexit would cause "catastrophic economic dislocation in the short term" and in the longer term leave Britain with a "smaller economy" and "poorer as a nation relative to our neighbours in the European Union"

Thatâ€™s 2 chancelers on the spin saying it will leave us worse off? Must be a conspiracy
		
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Or the last 2 were both idiots? The first one has certainly been shown up for having inaccurate predictions.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Chancellor Philip Hammond has told Sky News a 'no-deal' Brexit would cause "catastrophic economic dislocation in the short term" and in the longer term leave Britain with a "smaller economy" and "poorer as a nation relative to our neighbours in the European Union"

Thatâ€™s 2 chancelers on the spin saying it will leave us worse off? Must be a conspiracy
		
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Unfortunately we are now in a situation with politicians that if they told me it was daytime, I would look out of the window to check. Out of interest are both Chancellors remainers.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Unfortunately we are now in a situation with politicians that if they told me it was daytime, I would look out of the window to check. *Out of interest are both Chancellors remainers*.
		
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Surely not; who could have guessed?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Unfortunately we are now in a situation with politicians that if they told me it was daytime, I would look out of the window to check. Out of interest are both Chancellors remainers.
		
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Hammond had backed Remain in the Brexit referendum, but confirmed he would support the withdrawal of the UK from the EU, saying "No ifs, no buts, no second referendums. We are leaving the European Union. But it is equally clear to me that the British people did not vote on June 23 to become poorer, or less secure" and that he would take whatever steps necessary to protect the economy, jobs and living standards.[44]


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Surely not; who could have guessed?
		
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Itâ€™s almost like someone who is in control of the countries finance wants to back the option that would keep the county as strong financially as possible..... who would have thought


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Itâ€™s almost like someone who is in control of the countries finance wants to back the option that would keep the county as strong financially as possible..... who would have thought
		
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That option being to tie the countryâ€™s economy to a system that every other expert seems to consider a sinking ship, and one which as a net contributor we will end up bearing the financial liability for.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			That option being to tie the countryâ€™s economy to a system that every other expert seems to consider a sinking ship, and one which as a net contributor we will end up bearing the financial liability for.
		
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Every other? Some believe not all.


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## bobmac (Mar 24, 2019)

If some expert politicians are saying brexit is good and some expert politicians are saying brexit is bad, it seems to me that asking expert politicians about the future is a bit of a waste of time.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Not at all. Itâ€™s been around longer than the leave campaign 
A gammon is a middle aged white man whoâ€™s red in and face and raging 

2012 it was first used

Itâ€™s been used now to discribe Brexiteers because of the anger involved when they shout at MPs
		
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Most of the shouting at people outside parliament is from Remainers.  That bloke with the megaphone should be locked up, not for his political view but for public disorder, I know what would happen to me if I walked up and down my high Street shouting through a megaphone.   How was that for a classic bit of gammon.:
ðŸ˜¬


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Most of the shouting at people outside parliament is from Remainers.  That bloke with the megaphone should be locked up, not for his political view but for public disorder, I know what would happen to me if I walked up and down my high Street shouting through a megaphone.   How was that for a classic bit of gammon.:
ðŸ˜¬
		
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Very true. Itâ€™s used for anyone who angry shouts at people

Which is why itâ€™s been used at a lot of leavers 

Those awful people (not leavers per say) who hound MPs calling them traitors and scum filming it and shouting abuse

Those are gammons


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## chrisd (Mar 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Most of the shouting at people outside parliament is from Remainers.  That bloke with the megaphone should be locked up, not for his political view but for public disorder, I know what would happen to me if I walked up and down my high Street shouting through a megaphone.   How was that for a classic bit of gammon.:
ðŸ˜¬
		
Click to expand...

I was there during the vote a couple of weeks ago, just happened the have been to a show in London and took a stroll down to see what was going on and I'd say remainers and leavers were pretty even in numbers and it was pretty good natured banter mostly. The most annoying thing was a van driving up and down playing music with tannoy announcements, some complained to the police and they said they were going to stop the van


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## Fade and Die (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Very true. Itâ€™s used for anyone who angry shouts at people

Which is why itâ€™s been used at a lot of leavers

Those awful people (not leavers per say) who hound MPs calling them traitors and scum filming it and shouting abuse

Those are gammons
		
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What about the Waitrose set that marched in London yesterday chanting:
â€œWhat do we want?
Less democracy.
When do we want it?
Nowâ€
(Or something like that)

Gammons?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 24, 2019)

bobmac said:



			If some expert politicians are saying brexit is good and some expert politicians are saying brexit is bad, it seems to me that asking expert politicians about the future is a bit of a waste of time.
		
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I think there have been a number of examples in the last few years of experts on both sides of an argument giving contradictory views or advice. As you say it does bring into question how expert they all are.


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## IainP (Mar 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think there have been a number of examples in the last few years of experts on both sides of an argument giving contradictory views or advice. As you say it does bring into question how expert they all are.
		
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Ultimately all people can do is give their opinions. There is no precedent for what is being proposed (which is why understandable some/many have concerns). There is no crystal ball, so all anyone can do is judge those opinions for themselves. 

As we have all seen, those with strong views will typically pick out those opinions which align and quote them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 24, 2019)

IainP said:



			Ultimately all people can do is give their opinions. There is no precedent for what is being proposed (which is why understandable some/many have concerns). There is no crystal ball, so all anyone can do is judge those opinions for themselves. 

As we have all seen, those with strong views will typically pick out those opinions which align and quote them.
		
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I agree. It is the claim to be an expert that is bandied around a little too much now.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I agree. It is the claim to be an expert that is bandied around a little too much now.
		
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Unfortunately there are some on both sides that accept the expert option as fact.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2019)

It appears there are some remainers out there that are not only protesting about Brexit but also have no respect to war memorials


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## drdel (Mar 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think what this thread shows and all over social media in tbe Government , work and in fact all over the country - is that this vote has torn the country apart , itâ€™s made us a laughing stock , itâ€™s drawn a big trench right down the middle of the country , itâ€™s enabled normally mild mannered people become very angry and overall people have become more selfish 

This vote and process is imo going to damage the country for a long time - Iâ€™m not talking about financially because no one will know what happens in that sense until itâ€™s finished but as a country we are going to be divided and a mess for a long time - there are going to be a hell of a lot of â€œI told you soâ€ etc etc - the resentment against this whole process just gets bigger and bigger
		
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I don't bang on about how I voted to people I meet. Divisions will only continue or widen if we keep harping on.

I would hope that whatever happens the UK is mature enough to get on with making a succcess with the cards we're dealt.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			What about the Waitrose set that marched in London yesterday chanting:
â€œWhat do we want?
Less democracy.
When do we want it?
Nowâ€
(Or something like that)

Gammons?
		
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Think this from yesterday sums it up very nicely..


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 26905


Think this from yesterday sums it up very nicely..
		
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No problem , we changed our mind, we voted to leave the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 26905


Think this from yesterday sums it up very nicely..
		
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Absolutely it does. It shows a bunch of people who fail to understand (convieniatly) how democracy works.  You must execute the first democratic decision before replacing it with another.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolutely it does. It shows a bunch of people who fail to understand (convieniatly) how democracy works.  You must execute the first democratic decision before replacing it with another.
		
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Incorrect again socket. They understand how it works. They are entitled to change their mind. Its how democracy works

Thatâ€™s the entire point.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Very true. Itâ€™s used for anyone who angry shouts at people

*Which is why itâ€™s been used at a lot of leavers*

Those awful people (not leavers per say) who hound MPs calling them traitors and scum filming it and shouting abuse

Those are gammons
		
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 agree completely.  Mud slinging.


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## IanM (Mar 24, 2019)

They voted to escape federalism.

Your leader explains


Remain keep saying that Leavers didnâ€™t know what theyâ€™d voted for, actually itâ€™s Remainers who donâ€™t know.  Theyâ€™ve been panicked into believing the sky will fall in if we leave so are voting for the end of the country as an independent nation.  Who says so?  Farage, or Moggy....listen to  the leaders of the EU... see the above


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Incorrect again socket. They understand how it works. They are entitled to change their mind. Its how democracy works

Thatâ€™s the entire point.
		
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Are you being obtuse or a bit slow.   It works when you have executed the original decision.  Like the previous post said, we changed our mind so we could leave the EU.  I guess you must agree with that then ðŸ™„


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Incorrect again socket. They understand how it works. They are entitled to change their mind. Its how democracy works

Thatâ€™s the entire point.
		
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No one knows if they have changed their minds or if they all voted Remain in the first referendum and are simply unwilling to accept the result. And then you have those that want their say because they weren't old enough to vote in the referendum. Sorry, but that's how it works in this country. Once you turn 18 you get to vote in subsequent elections/referendums. I wasn't old enough to vote in the referendum that took us into the EU (or whatever it was called at that time). Does that mean I have the right to demand that vote is rerun as I'm now old enough to vote?


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## Fade and Die (Mar 24, 2019)

Iâ€™m a bit dubious of the â€œMillionâ€ too! I saw a lot of dogs, kids and foreigners in the crowd were they counted too?

BBC News â€“ â€œOne member of the crowd, German-born vet Chris Reichmann, described the atmosphere as a â€œcarnival â€ â€“ with â€œlots of different nationalitiesâ€ but â€œreally British in a wayâ€. ðŸ˜‚

Iâ€™d be more impressed if they could get a crowd of 10000 in Salford.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you being obtuse or a bit slow.   It works when you have executed the original decision.  Like the previous post said, we changed our mind to leave the EU.  I guess you must agree with that then ðŸ™„
		
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Considering a second vote and revoking article 50 are still valid options you donâ€™t need to execute the first action before those happen at all.. considering it wasnâ€™t legally binding in the first place ..

So once again you clearly donâ€™t understand democracy


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## IanM (Mar 24, 2019)

There will be as many votes as it takes until we vote to stay in.   Itâ€™s their rules!

Now, who was it who bet me weâ€™d leave next week?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Considering a second vote and revoking article 50 are still valid options you donâ€™t need to execute the first action before those happen at all.. considering it wasnâ€™t legally binding in the first place ..

So once again you clearly donâ€™t understand democracy
		
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Serious question time, letâ€™s imagine we were given the vote again and this time the vote was the exact opposite, do you honestly believe that it would be the end of it or would you be asking for best of 3?


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2019)

End of it as the Federalist's will have got the vote they want.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Serious question time, letâ€™s imagine we were given the vote again and this time the vote was the exact opposite, do you honestly believe that it would be the end of it or would you be asking for best of 3?
		
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Considering the leave means leave mArch got what 33 people? I doubt it would have as much support 

Depends how close it is

Opinion may have changed. It seems it by a long way

Say of the 33 million votes it was 25 remain now and 8 leave then would there be a need for a 3rd and so on?

If it was a 17:16 split again then it would be more of an issue 

Itâ€™s the closeness that makes it such an issue


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Iâ€™m a bit dubious of the â€œMillionâ€ too! I saw a lot of dogs, kids and foreigners in the crowd were they counted too?

BBC News â€“ â€œOne member of the crowd, German-born vet Chris Reichmann, described the atmosphere as a â€œcarnival â€ â€“ with â€œlots of different nationalitiesâ€ but â€œreally British in a wayâ€. ðŸ˜‚

Iâ€™d be more impressed if they could get a crowd of 10000 in Salford.
		
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Foreigners??? Dare I ask how you know they were not British?


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## drdel (Mar 24, 2019)

The European Union has bigger problems to deal with than Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...has-bigger-problems-to-deal-with-than-brexit?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 24, 2019)

IanM said:



			There will be as many votes as it takes until we vote to stay in.   Itâ€™s their rules!

Now, who was it who bet me weâ€™d leave next week?
		
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Possibly me but I've lost track over who I bet. Plenty of time yet though. ðŸ˜‰


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## IanM (Mar 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Foreigners??? Dare I ask how you know they were not British?
		
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What would the odds be of any tourists being in London on any given Saturday? 


And as the Mayor keeps saying...London is the most diverse city in the world


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Foreigners??? Dare I ask how you know they were not British?
		
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Lots never had knotted handkerchiefs on their heads and never tucked their shirts into their underpants.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 24, 2019)

IanM said:



			What would the odds be of any tourists being in London on any given Saturday?


And as the Mayor keeps saying...London is the most diverse city in the world
		
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Which may all be true but just wondering how you can tell who is a foreigner and therfore apparently not to be counted by looking at them?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Serious question time, letâ€™s imagine we were given the vote again and this time the vote was the exact opposite, do you honestly believe that it would be the end of it or would you be asking for best of 3?
		
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It's only democratic if it suits Remainers.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Lots never had knotted handkerchiefs on their heads and never tucked their shirts into their underpants.
		
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You missed white socks and sandals as that is the real foreigner giveaway. Either that or they are singing 'I want to know what love is.'


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Considering the leave means leave mArch got what 33 people? I doubt it would have as much support 

Depends how close it is

Opinion may have changed. It seems it by a long way

Say of the 33 million votes it was 25 remain now and 8 leave then would there be a need for a 3rd and so on?

If it was a 17:16 split again then it would be more of an issue 

Itâ€™s the closeness that makes it such an issue
		
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Lots of people don't like the Tories but it doesn't mean they have a right to a general election.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You missed white socks and sandals as that is the real foreigner giveaway. Either that or they are singing 'I want to know what love is.'
		
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There was a distinct whiff of garlic.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There was a distinct whiff of garlic.
		
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Doubt it, they were to busy rioting in their own country.


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## Slime (Mar 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Engage!
Make it so.
		
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Apology accepted.


----------



## bobmac (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			If it was a 17:16 split again then it would be more of an issue
		
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What result wouldn't be an issue, 18-15? 19-14? 20-13?
And who decides?



pauljames87 said:



			Itâ€™s the closeness that makes it such an issue
		
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Barnsley beat Walsall 1-0 yesterday 
One measly almost insignificant goal
Not 1.27 million, which is incidentally more than the entire population of Birmingham


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

bobmac said:



			What result wouldn't be an issue, 18-15? 19-14? 20-13?
And who decides?



Barnsley beat Walsall 1-0 yesterday
One measly almost insignificant goal
Not 1.27 million, which is incidentally more than the entire population of Birmingham
		
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60% and above would indicate clearer 

However that said if there was a second vote Iâ€™ve yet to come across a remain voter who would change their vote to leave but have met and spoken to many leave voters who would change their vote due to feeling mislead by the campaign or have just changed their mind


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## harpo_72 (Mar 24, 2019)

Will TM survive ? Or will we have Rees Mogg in? 
Another prime minster we did not vote for ...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Will TM survive ? Or will we have Rees Mogg in?
Another prime minster we did not vote for ...
		
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Ah great letâ€™s get the Victorian mill owner in who has benefited no end from insider trading during all this uncertainty


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2019)

Don't fret, not a hope in hell for RM.


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## robinthehood (Mar 24, 2019)

Slime said:



			Apology accepted. 

Click to expand...

? You'll need to explain to thicko what it is your are talking about


----------



## bobmac (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			60% and above would indicate clearer

However that said if there was a second vote Iâ€™ve yet to come across a remain voter who would change their vote to leave but have met and spoken to many leave voters who would change their vote due to feeling mislead by the campaign or have just changed their mind
		
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So if there was another referendum and remain won with 59% of the votes, you wouldn't accept it?


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## Slime (Mar 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			? You'll need to explain to thicko what it is your are talking about
		
Click to expand...

No I won't.


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2019)

If there are to be indicative votes this coming week, how about each of the party leaders put forward their preferred option and then have Parliament to be given a free vote on those options? Unfortunately, that might not satisfy the EU but at least the UK Parliament will have cho


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If there are to be indicative votes this coming week, how about each of the party leaders put forward their preferred option and then have Parliament to be given a free vote on those options? Unfortunately, that might not satisfy the EU but at least the UK Parliament will have cho
		
Click to expand...

Looks like Torys are but Labour whipping.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Looks like Torys are but Labour whipping.
		
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Thatâ€™ll be to stop the sheer amount of tories whoâ€™ll embarras TM if they tried playing the whip.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™ll be to stop the sheer amount of tories whoâ€™ll embarras TM if they tried playing the whip.
		
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That's one way to look at it, more likely giving Labour the chance to scupper any preferred option IMO


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If there are to be indicative votes this coming week, *how about each of the party leaders put forward their preferred option* and then have Parliament to be given a free vote on those options? Unfortunately, that might not satisfy the EU but at least the UK Parliament will have cho
		
Click to expand...

Because it is very questionable on how much each party leader has the support of their MPs at the moment?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			That's one way to look at it, more likely giving Labour the chance to scupper any preferred option IMO
		
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Thatâ€™ll be because TM failed to get her own house in order and created this mess.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Don't fret, not a hope in hell for RM.
		
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I don't know, I imagine he's quite popular with the membership of the conservative party.  We could then end up with Corbyn V Mogg in a contest to find out who, whilst having the  most support amongst the ideological fanatics in their party, is the least disliked by the majority of voters. Would kind of serve us right in a way.


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## robinthehood (Mar 24, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-47680979/brexit-people-s-vote-march-to-parliament-square-sped-up

lot  of people


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## Mudball (Mar 24, 2019)

Met a Remainer friend of mine this weekend.   Asked him if he signed the Petition.. 
He shrugged his shoulders and said.. 'No point.  Anyways it wont make a difference, as the count was above 100K and therefore the it does not matter if it it is 100,001 or 3m'..   You could call it being pragmatic / voter apathy or the fact that not all remainers have signed up yet.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Met a Remainer friend of mine this weekend.   Asked him if he signed the Petition..
He shrugged his shoulders and said.. 'No point.  Anyways it wont make a difference, as the count was above 100K and therefore the it does not matter if it it is 100,001 or 3m'..   You could call it being pragmatic / voter apathy or the fact that not all remainers have signed up yet.
		
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It wonâ€™t make a difference but just imagine it got to say 20 million people.. what would the MPs do then? Now that would be a story


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## Foxholer (Mar 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:





Tashyboy said:



			Unfortunately we are now in a situation with politicians that if they told me it was daytime, I would look out of the window to check. Out of interest are both Chancellors remainers.
		
Click to expand...

Surely not; who could have guessed?
		
Click to expand...

He certainly is - because he believes that's what's best for the UK economy! I can't fault him on that - as every indicator/indication, including those of the Brexiteers , is that - at least initially - the UK economy will suffer because of Brexit.


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## Mudball (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			It wonâ€™t make a difference but just imagine it got to say 20 million people.. what would the MPs do then? Now that would be a story
		
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i told him the same thing.. We looked at each other and then went back to the pint and discussing the footy...     Men-being-Men


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Foreigners??? Dare I ask how you know they were not British?
		
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That is easy, they were not like us.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

I just signed the petition to rerun the battle of Hastings as I dont like the result.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			He certainly is - because he believes that's what's best for the UK economy! I can't fault him on that - as every indicator/indication, including those of the Brexiteers , is that - at least initially - the UK economy will suffer because of Brexit.
		
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I believe the Eu economy will suffer aswel at first 

However for some their hatred of the Eu is so strong they would gladly see us suffer so long as they suffer aswell

To say that we can make a better go of this mess than they can 

Call me old fashioned but i kind of Prefer Europe working together to improve all countries 

So Greece went under, should we stand by and let them?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I just signed the petition to rerun the battle of Hastings as I dont like the result.
		
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Original ðŸ‘Œ steal that one off twitter?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-47680979/brexit-people-s-vote-march-to-parliament-square-sped-up

lot  of people
		
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You dont say ðŸ™„


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Original ðŸ‘Œ steal that one off twitter?
		
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I dont twitter, its for the birds.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			It wonâ€™t make a difference but just imagine it got to say 20 million people.. what would the MPs do then? Now that would be a story
		
Click to expand...

Catch up, this has been explained before. They wont do anything as its only the ballot box that counts for anything ðŸ™„


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Catch up, this has been explained before. They wont do anything as its only the ballot box that counts for anything ðŸ™„
		
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The only box that matters is the ones the MPs vote in.. not the one we vote in ðŸ‘Œ

Keep up


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## robinthehood (Mar 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I just signed the petition to rerun the battle of Hastings as I dont like the result.
		
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Wasn't even  funny in 2016 when it was set up,  perhaps you should Google some new material .


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Wasn't even  funny in 2016 when it was set up,  perhaps you should Google some new material .
		
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You have to forgive him heâ€™s only heard of ask Jeeves


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			He certainly is - because he believes that's what's best for the UK economy! I can't fault him on that - as every indicator/indication, including those of the Brexiteers , is that - at least initially - the UK economy will suffer because of Brexit.
		
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I wouldnâ€™t disagree that short term there will be an impact, however it removes the bigger issues that have been cited. Short term pain for long term gain if you like.  Given that Hammond is a Remainer, Iâ€™m not surprised that he highlights the short term over the long term; it suits his real agenda.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

[


pauljames87 said:



			The only box that matters is the ones the MPs vote in.. not the one we vote in ðŸ‘Œ

Keep up
		
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I repeat, they will do nothing  no matter how many sign it.   And, they vote in Lobbies not boxes ðŸ™„


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Didnt the Bank of England recently give a forecast of growth remaining positive b

I repeat, they will do nothing  o matter how many sign it.   And, they vote in Lobbies not boxes ðŸ™„
		
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Which means the ballot box is even more meaningless and itâ€™s the lobbies thatâ€™s all that matters..


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Which means the ballot box is even more meaningless and itâ€™s the lobbies thatâ€™s all that matters..
		
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See, youve learned something today. Dont forget its the ballot box that puts them in their job, the public only lend then their position and can take it away next time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I wouldnâ€™t disagree that short term there will be an impact, however it removes the bigger issues that have been cited. Short term pain for long term gain if you like.  Given that Hammond is a Remainer, Iâ€™m not surprised that he highlights the short term over the long term; it suits his real agenda.
		
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My biggest worry about it all is how long that â€œshort termâ€ pain is - is there a chance of it being a bit more than â€œshortâ€ - does it go from months to years and maybe more. The country has not long recovered ( prob not fully ) from the global recession- it wouldnâ€™t be good for us all to be hit again with big austerity measures etc .

Lots of â€œforecastsâ€ etc but itâ€™s got to be impossible to predict


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## Foxholer (Mar 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I wouldnâ€™t disagree that short term there will be an impact, however it removes the bigger issues that have been cited. Short term pain for long term gain if you like.  Given that Hammond is a Remainer, Iâ€™m not surprised that he highlights the short term over the long term; it suits his real agenda.
		
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Surely he's entitled to his opinion, just as you or I, or Farage or Boris are to our/theirs!

But I'm inclined to respect his opinion somewhat more than Farage's  or Boris's (or yours for that matter, but that doesn't mean I'm 'dis-ing' any of them!).


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My biggest worry about it all is how long that â€œshort termâ€ pain is - is there a chance of it being a bit more than â€œshortâ€ - does it go from months to years and maybe more. The country has not long recovered ( prob not fully ) from the global recession- it wouldnâ€™t be good for us all to be hit again with big austerity measures etc .

Lots of â€œforecastsâ€ etc but itâ€™s got to be impossible to predict
		
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And how long is the long term when the EUâ€™s QE chickens come home to roost Phil? And how big will that be as it appears to be a number of the other net contributors that are at risk?


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## JamesR (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Not at all. Itâ€™s been around longer than the leave campaign
A gammon is a middle aged white man whoâ€™s red in and face and raging

2012 it was first used

Itâ€™s been used now to discribe Brexiteers because of the anger involved when they shout at MPs
		
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Itâ€™s actually from Dickens-a description of a lawyer, I canâ€™t remember which book


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Surely he's entitled to his opinion, just as you or I, or Farage or Boris are to our/theirs!

But I'm inclined to respect his opinion somewhat more than Farage's  or Boris's (or yours for that matter, but that doesn't mean I'm 'dis-ing' any of them!).
		
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Indeed he is, but given his track record as Chancellor where I believe he hasnâ€™t exactly distinguished himself, the fact that his predecessor has been proven inaccurate in his predictions and the general performance of Her Majestyâ€™s government during the Brexit process I would hope you can understand my scepticism.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			And how long is the long term when the EUâ€™s QE chickens come home to roost Phil? And how big will that be as it appears to be a number of the other net contributors that are at risk?
		
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No idea what a QE chicken is ? 

Are we financially at risk by staying in the EU ?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No idea what a QE chicken is ?

Are we financially at risk by staying in the EU ?
		
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I still think the Eu will only be in serious danger if we leave .. if we stay we keep it going together. Not just our countries futures we are playing with


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## chrisd (Mar 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No idea what a QE chicken is ?
		
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Quantative Easing possibly??


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Itâ€™s actually from Dickens-a description of a lawyer, I canâ€™t remember which book
		
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Nicholas Nickleby... I think. Wasn't it the lawyer Greg-something?


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## Ross61 (Mar 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			See, youve learned something today. Dont forget its the ballot box that puts them in their job, the public only lend then their position and can take it away next time.
		
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If only that were True for many voters that live in strongholds. Apparently 29% of constituencies have never changed hands since 1945 and 49% since 1970. True democracy it isnâ€™t for those that vote against the standing party in those constituencies.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)




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## JamesR (Mar 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Nicholas Nickleby... I think. Wasn't it the lawyer Greg-something?
		
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Just checked, it was an MP named Gregsbury


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No idea what a QE chicken is ?

Are we financially at risk by staying in the EU ?
		
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As we're not currently in the Euro, less risk than those that are. However, the EU is considering mutualising debt, i.e. all ECB debt is shared by all nations in the EU. At present, the ECB is holding a significant number of junk-bonds issued by various EU countries whose economies were tanking. The bonds are time limited, i.e. they're the chickens that will come home to roost.

Quite what that roosting will look like, no one knows. The ECB may agree to extend the time limit, or countries might issue more bonds, assuming they can find a buyer, to cover the 'buy-back' on the old bonds. Or the ECB might go down the route of more QE.

A major part of the problem was the EU is very restrictive on its financial rules, and stopped many national banks from using the financial freedoms that Non-Euro banks like the Bank of England have. The UK started its version of QE long before the EU, hence coming out of recession a lot earlier than many EU countries. That early intervention gave international investors a lot more confidence to invest in the UK before most of the EU.

(Note, no copying and pasting was involved in creating this post...)


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Incorrect again socket. They understand how it works. They are entitled to change their mind. Its how democracy works

Thatâ€™s the entire point.
		
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Just to make this completely clear to you so you understand. 
Democracy is allowing people to make a decision then carrying it through. We voted, we made a decision, we must now carry it through. Which bit of that process do you not understand?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Just to make this completely clear to you so you understand.
Democracy is allowing people to make a decision then carrying it through. We voted, we made a decision, we must now carry it through. Which bit of that process do you not understand?
		
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We made a decision on a non legally binding referendum, do you understand that part so far?

We can change our mind at anytime thatâ€™s democracy. We didnâ€™t have to see through a non legally binding process at all

If they cancel it and revoke article 50 they will have cancelled a  non legally binding outcome..

Hope you kept up.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			We made a decision on a non legally binding referendum, do you understand that part so far?

We can change our mind at anytime thatâ€™s democracy. We didnâ€™t have to see through a non legally binding process at all

If they cancel it and revoke article 50 they will have cancelled a  non legally binding outcome..

Hope you kept up.
		
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You are just coming across like a spoilt child that didn't get what he wanted. We voted, we reached a majority. Now deal with it.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			We made a decision on a non legally binding referendum, do you understand that part so far?

We can change our mind at anytime thatâ€™s democracy. We didnâ€™t have to see through a non legally binding process at all

If they cancel it and revoke article 50 they will have cancelled a  non legally binding outcome..

Hope you kept up.
		
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In regards to the legality you are correct, but to have a vote and then not honour the outcome makes a mockery of it. 

If i'm with my mates and we are deciding on what takeout we want we have a chat and majority rules, we don't argue for an hour and vote again.


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## chrisd (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			We made a decision on a non legally binding referendum, do you understand that part so far?

We can change our mind at anytime thatâ€™s democracy. We didnâ€™t have to see through a non legally binding process at all

If they cancel it and revoke article 50 they will have cancelled a  non legally binding outcome..

Hope you kept up.
		
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Come on Paul, it's not democracy to assume that those (the majority) who voted to leave have changed their minds and then ask for a second vote. Whilst not legally binding the 2 main parties fought a general election on a promise to deliver on the referendum result. If they cancel 50 there will be mayhem in the country.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Come on Paul, it's not democracy to assume that those (the majority) who voted to leave have changed their minds and then ask for a second vote. Whilst not legally binding the 2 main parties fought a general election on a promise to deliver on the referendum result. If they cancel 50 there will be mayhem in the country.
		
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Iâ€™m just making the point to those who donâ€™t seem to actually understand that the gov can change their mind if they see fit because itâ€™s not legally binding and never was.

If itâ€™s correct or not to do so is a debate for another time but for drive4show and socket to suggest to donâ€™t understand because once you have voted they HAVE to put it though is again WRONG

If itâ€™s not legally binding then they donâ€™t have to do anything if they donâ€™t want to.

Just pointing out some facts to 2 people who like to try to talk down to me because they canâ€™t seem to grasp that whilst it may morally be wrong to change the outcome of the vote the gov can do whatever they like here. 

Once again

Not legally binding. 

I hope the understood and kept up ðŸ‘Œ


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## chrisd (Mar 24, 2019)

I understand it wasn't a legally binding referendum but not so sure that it's not now legally binding having enacted the Article 50, and yes, I am aware that we can revoke 50 but not sure that isn't a legal process too.


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I understand it wasn't a legally binding referendum but not so sure that it's not now legally binding having enacted the Article 50, and yes, I am aware that we can revoke 50 but not sure that isn't a legal process too.
		
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Think the Withdrawal Act made it legally binding, but that doesn't mean the law can't be changed. There'll have to be an amendment to it anyway as the Act has the date 29th March in it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 24, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Come on Paul, it's not democracy to assume that those (the majority) who voted to leave have changed their minds and then ask for a second vote. Whilst not legally binding the 2 main parties fought a general election on a promise to deliver on the referendum result. If they cancel 50 there will be mayhem in the country.
		
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I believe it is legally binding now though isnâ€™t it ? But they can change it I also think ?

As for mayhem in the country - there already is right now


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## harpo_72 (Mar 24, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			In regards to the legality you are correct, but to have a vote and then not honour the outcome makes a mockery of it.

If i'm with my mates and we are deciding on what takeout we want we have a chat and majority rules, we don't argue for an hour and vote again.
		
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Thatâ€™s just a 30 minute sh*t in the morning, not a life turning to sh*t opportunity


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## harpo_72 (Mar 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			As we're not currently in the Euro, less risk than those that are. However, the EU is considering mutualising debt, i.e. all ECB debt is shared by all nations in the EU. At present, the ECB is holding a significant number of junk-bonds issued by various EU countries whose economies were tanking. The bonds are time limited, i.e. they're the chickens that will come home to roost.

Quite what that roosting will look like, no one knows. The ECB may agree to extend the time limit, or countries might issue more bonds, assuming they can find a buyer, to cover the 'buy-back' on the old bonds. Or the ECB might go down the route of more QE.

A major part of the problem was the EU is very restrictive on its financial rules, and stopped many national banks from using the financial freedoms that Non-Euro banks like the Bank of England have. The UK started its version of QE long before the EU, hence coming out of recession a lot earlier than many EU countries. That early intervention gave international investors a lot more confidence to invest in the UK before most of the EU.

(Note, no copying and pasting was involved in creating this post...)
		
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Project fear ..! Put it away, the EC wonâ€™t let their economy tank.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thatâ€™s just a 30 minute sh*t in the morning, not a life turning to sh*t opportunity
		
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I agree, but the concept is the same. The people had a vote. Imo it should be followed.

The vote should never have been given to the people, but now it has it should be listened to.


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Project fear ..! Put it away, the EC wonâ€™t let their economy tank.
		
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The only non-fact in there is "chickens come home to roost."

So how does the EU stop those chickens coming home to roost? That's covered in the very next paragraph ----- but you labelled it Project Fear rather than see both sides of the post. You're right, the EU not so much won't let it happen, they can't let it happen.

But taking it a little further, who pays for the next round of EU QE? The EU(ECB), pretty much like every other 'country,' borrows money on the global money markets. But who services that debt? Where does the EU get their money from to service the debt? Greece? Spain? Italy?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™m just making the point to those who donâ€™t seem to actually understand that the gov can change their mind if they see fit because itâ€™s not legally binding and never was.

If itâ€™s correct or not to do so is a debate for another time but for drive4show and socket to suggest to donâ€™t understand because once you have voted they HAVE to put it though is again WRONG

If itâ€™s not legally binding then they donâ€™t have to do anything if they donâ€™t want to.

Just pointing out some facts to 2 people who like to try to talk down to me because they canâ€™t seem to grasp that whilst it may morally be wrong to change the outcome of the vote the gov can do whatever they like here.

Once again

Not legally binding.

I hope the understood and kept up ðŸ‘Œ
		
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You are speaking in ignorance. Try reading up on what's currently law rather than spouting off things you half understand.

We had a referendum. There was then a bill,passed through the House of Commons and House of Lords that allowed article 50 to be started, this was the Europeian Union Withdraw Act, it was passed by a large majority and given Royal Ascent that enshrined it in law.
You may recall how Gina Millar stopped the Government enacting it by Royal Perogative in a High Court Case that insisted there must be a meaningful vote in both houses.

It ceased to be non binding at this stage.  Later there was a General Election where both major parties said they would honour thr result of the referendum.  To suggest the current position to leave the EU is not binding is balderdash.  The government can of course follow the correct procedures to change that law if it can be voted through but that's a different matter.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The only non-fact in there is "chickens come home to roost."

So how does the EU stop those chickens coming home to roost? That's covered in the very next paragraph ----- but you labelled it Project Fear rather than see both sides of the post. You're right, the EU not so much won't let it happen, they can't let it happen.

But taking it a little further, who pays for the next round of EU QE? The EU(ECB), pretty much like every other 'country,' borrows money on the global money markets. But who services that debt? Where does the EU get their money from to service the debt? Greece? Spain? Italy?
		
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Think they will sell Greece to the Chinese. ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I wouldnâ€™t disagree that short term there will be an impact, however it removes the bigger issues that have been cited. Short term pain for long term gain if you like.  Given that Hammond is a Remainer, Iâ€™m not surprised that he highlights the short term over the long term; it suits his real agenda.
		
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Hang on! You've got his reasoning for being a Remainer and the risks/benefits the wrong way around! 

He's *a Remainer because* (not *because he's a Remainer*), in his view, there is little to no real long term economic gain for the UK from Brexit. Indeed, there's actually likely to be long term loss as well - even with the 'additional freedom' that negotiating separate deals might bring! I've actually heard him say that - or at least words to that effect! So purely on a risks/benefits basis, he's a Remainer. Not the other way around. To put it more succinctly, 'Why do you think he's a Remainer?'!

I believe YOU have been convinced that the 'non economic benefits', or the 'benefits' not directly attributable of leaving - the 'taking back control' (especially of immigration), not uprooting from Brussels to Strasbourg once a month etc. were worth that cost. Oh and the bollocks about how great the deal with the EU would be and the simplicity of negotiating it! And that, long term, there will be an economic 'gain' from leaving. That, of course, is your prerogative. I weighed up the pros and cons according to MY priorities and analysis and came to a different conclusion! Neither of us is wrong - we just assign different priorities to the (real and perceived) pros and cons of EU membership.

However, that doesn't mean that I want a 2nd Referendum. In fact, as it stands, I think that would be an obscene - and undemocratic - act! It's up to Parliament, having committed to implementing the result, to find a way to do so - even if that simply means 'No Deal'. The real 'deal' can be sorted out after UK is out of EU. And after all, any 'deal' is only about the withdrawal agreement, not all the myriad of other 'relationships' UK has with EU. I believe (fear even) that many folk think that the 'deal' covers the entire gamut of UK-EU relationship! That's simply not the case!


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			...
Not legally binding.
...
		
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Twaddle!


pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™m just making the point to those who donâ€™t seem to actually understand that the gov can change their mind if they see fit...
		
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Yes they can do that. But to implement THAT decision would require changes to, legally binding, Acts/Laws!


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Indeed he is, but given his track record as Chancellor where *I believe* he hasnâ€™t exactly distinguished himself, the fact that his predecessor has been proven inaccurate in his predictions and the general performance of Her Majestyâ€™s government during the Brexit process I would hope you can understand *my scepticism*.
		
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The bold bit is the all-important bit! I'm not as sceptical as you!

Btw. 'predecessor'? Osborne? Or do you actually mean the Governor of the BofE? 'Cohort' perhaps?


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## Mudball (Mar 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The only non-fact in there is "chickens come home to roost."

So how does the EU stop those chickens coming home to roost? That's covered in the very next paragraph ----- but you labelled it Project Fear rather than see both sides of the post. You're right, the EU not so much won't let it happen, they can't let it happen.

But taking it a little further, who pays for the next round of EU QE? The EU(ECB), pretty much like every other 'country,' borrows money on the global money markets. But who services that debt? Where does the EU get their money from to service the debt? Greece? Spain? Italy?
		
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Havenâ€™t read the article but looks like more talk about EU going kaput .. 

Imagine if we decide to Remain (against the will of 17m) and then EU goes down the pan. Will the 17m petition and march to get us out? Wonâ€™t be able to wipe that smug smile from Moggs face..


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Think the Withdrawal Act made it legally binding, but that doesn't mean the law can't be changed. There'll have to be an amendment to it anyway as the Act has the date 29th March in it.
		
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That Act states that a Minister can, by Regulation, change that date!
So no 'amendment' to the Act required, simply the issue of an amending Regulation.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Havenâ€™t read the article but looks like more talk about EU going kaput ..

Imagine if we decide to Remain (against the will of 17m) and then EU goes down the pan. Will the 17m petition and march to get us out? Wonâ€™t be able to wipe that smug smile from Moggs face..
		
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Subtle Leave propaganda perhaps?

EU doesn't 'go kaput', even when/if it screws up! It simply demands more money from its contributors! That's one of the arguments, that the  Leave campaign made, that I 'agree' with!


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2019)

I don't know one person who voted to stay in. Just where the hell are these people?


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I don't know one person who voted to stay in. Just where the hell are these people?
		
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I know a few. Theyâ€™re either from down south, fascists, transgender, or get a little irate in car parks. Either way not quite sane.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I don't know one person who voted to stay in. Just where the hell are these people?
		
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Depends on your social circles, I know very few people who voted to leave.  Apart from my mother in law.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I don't know one person who voted to stay in. Just where the hell are these people?
		
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I know mostly remainers. Sad to say the demographic and reasoning of those I know who are leavers are cliched stereotypes so I will not go into details .


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2019)

I thi


Crazyface said:



			I don't know one person who voted to stay in. Just where the hell are these people?
		
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62% live in Scotland.


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Quantative Easing possibly??
		
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QE isn't borrowing in the conventional sense; it simply allows (in this case the ECB) to release funds to banks (a simple few computers keystrokes).

There is a debt, usually covered by sovereign bonds, which then gives rise to interest charges which become the burden on the specific bank/country.  The EU won't go bust in the way a company or person may be declared bankrupt; all that happens is that as the debt risk rises the interest rates rise.  The consequences are that a higher and higher proportion of the wealth a member state generates is swallowed by the interest. Obviously as with Greece and Italy and indeed France there's is less left in the normal budget and the burden on tax payers rises. This is the start of the downward spiral because even less is invested in wealth creation. Hence the Greek debacle where it has no chance of ever paying of any capital - its now borrowing to pay interest on interest; interest added to interest!!!

The EU have plans to amortise the ECB's huge historic QE 'debt' across all members so that it can carry out even more QE to pretend there is growth in the EU economy. If the UK remains in the EU there will be pressure for the UK (seen as wealthy by every other member) to take a higher proportion of the liability just as the our own 'books' are getting straight and austerity measures are ending. IMO if you add these potential debt liabilities to the rise in the EU budget (that will be coupled to a disproportionate rise in the UK's contribution) the result will heavily impact the UK's domestic budget. If we stay we will pay a very high price.


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## patricks148 (Mar 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I thi

62% live in Scotland.
		
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i don't know a single leaver


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2019)

*"Friday:* This was the day the UK was meant to leave the EU. The earliest that will now happen is 12 April. "

Eh? I thought March 29th was "LAW". Parliament hasn't changed this, so it's still our law isn't it?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



*"Friday:* This was the day the UK was meant to leave the EU. The earliest that will now happen is 12 April. "

Eh? I thought March 29th was "LAW". Parliament hasn't changed this, so it's still our law isn't it?
		
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I believe it will be amended early this week. You are correct, it is law but the law will be tweaked. How it is tweaked presumably depends on whether TM gets her deal through. The next date can then be confirmed.


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i don't know a single leaver
		
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I think we can leave Scotland and N. Ireland out of all debates on this as both these countries want to stay in tied to the UK, as the UK give them money and also want to stay in the EU as, guess what?, they give them money. So they want it all ways, because they are getting it...all ways. It's just England getting sweet fanny adams and having to stump up readies for these countries and getting sweet fanny adams back. Hence why we voted OUT and luckilly, their are more people in England. Oh and Wales voted out as they get sweet fanny adams too, which is why they voted out as well. Why can you arguementative lot not see this?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			I know a few. Theyâ€™re either from down south, fascists, transgender, or get a little irate in car parks. Either way not quite sane.
		
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Crazyface said:



			I think we can leave Scotland and N. Ireland out of all debates on this as both these countries want to stay in tied to the UK, as the UK give them money and also want to stay in the EU as, guess what?, they give them money. So they want it all ways, because they are getting it...all ways. It's just England getting sweet fanny adams and having to stump up readies for these countries and getting sweet fanny adams back. Hence why we voted OUT and luckilly, their are more people in England. Oh and Wales voted out as they get sweet fanny adams too, which is why they voted out as well. Why can you arguementative lot not see this?
		
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I didnâ€™t think this thread could get worse but well done ðŸ‘


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I believe it will be amended early this week. You are correct, it is law but the law will be tweaked. How it is tweaked presumably depends on whether TM gets her deal through. The next date can then be confirmed.
		
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Ahh they are going to change the law to suit what they want. Why can't the MP's just do what the MAJORITY of the people want and just LEAVE WITHOUT A DEAL? that's what EVERYONE I KNOW WANT. Oh AND WE WON. Which is why we are not marching everywhere and starting petitions. THose that loose always make the most noise, whilst the winners just sit back in the knowledge they won and wait for what they won to be delivered.

Jesus H if it's not I can see MASSIVE problems to erupt country wide.


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didnâ€™t think this thread could get worse but well done ðŸ‘
		
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No problem. It's what the people I know are saying. just because you are one of the moaning minnies who lost. We are getting fed up of all this garbage. And I can tell you whan I speak to people they are becoming more and more irate and VERY vocal. it will blow up big style if we do not leave.


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2019)

Go and have a chat with people outside your tiny circle of friends and have a listen to what they are saying. You will be shocked at the strength of opinion about this.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I think we can leave Scotland and* N. Ireland out of all debates on this as both these countries want to stay in tied to the UK,* as the UK give them money and also want to stay in the EU as, guess what?, they give them money. So they want it all ways, because they are getting it...all ways. It's just England getting sweet fanny adams and having to stump up readies for these countries and getting sweet fanny adams back. Hence why we voted OUT and luckilly, their are more people in England. Oh and Wales voted out as they get sweet fanny adams too, which is why they voted out as well. Why can you arguementative lot not see this?
		
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Terrific understanding of Irish politics and the Irish border issue there.


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2019)

People will not just be sitting there rolling their eyes and tutting.


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## IanM (Mar 25, 2019)

Intersting   - not a single comment on the Guy Verhofstadt  video.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Ahh they are going to change the law to suit what they want. Why can't the MP's just do what the MAJORITY of the people want and just LEAVE WITHOUT A DEAL? that's what EVERYONE I KNOW WANT. Oh AND WE WON. *Which is why we are not marching everywhere *and starting petitions*. *THose that loose always make the most noise, whilst the winners just sit back in the knowledge they won and wait for what they won to be delivered.

Jesus H if it's not I can see MASSIVE problems to erupt country wide.
		
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You are, there's about 75 people on the march, possibly peaking at 100 on a good day.


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Terrific understanding of Irish politics and the Irish border issue there.
		
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Awww give over man. It's ALWAYS ABOUT MONEY!!!!!! Nothing else matters. The troubles have stopped because the EU poured money into Ireland, and thank God they did mind. This is what countries want. MONEY!


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You are, there's about 75 people on the march, possibly peaking at 100 on a good day.
		
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We won, and are waiting for the result to be delivered. We do not need to march. We won !


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## Dan2501 (Mar 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Go and have a chat with people outside your tiny circle of friends and have a listen to what they are saying. You will be shocked at the strength of opinion about this.
		
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I think you should probably do the same judging by your last few posts.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 25, 2019)

IanM said:



			Intersting   - not a single comment on the *Guy Verhofstadt  video*.
		
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I've typed that in google and genuinely do not know what you are referring to.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I think we can leave Scotland and N. Ireland out of all debates on this as both these countries want to stay in tied to the UK, as the UK give them money and also want to stay in the EU as, guess what?, they give them money. So they want it all ways, because they are getting it...all ways. It's just England getting sweet fanny adams and having to stump up readies for these countries and getting sweet fanny adams back. Hence why we voted OUT and luckilly, their are more people in England. Oh and Wales voted out as they get sweet fanny adams too, which is why they voted out as well. Why can you arguementative lot not see this?
		
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Oh we do see it VERY clearly. 
What you seek will lead to England and perhaps Wales out of the UK and out of the EU and in the splendid isolation that half of its population seem to desperately seek.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I thi

62% live in Scotland.
		
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Twaddle!


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2019)

IanM said:



			Intersting   - not a single comment on the Guy Verhofstadt  video.
		
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The guy's arrogant and juvenile, like many of his cohort he likes to be centre stage on Twitter rather than engage in proper diplomatic negotiations.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Ahh they are going to change the law to suit what they want. Why can't the MP's just do what the MAJORITY of the people want and just LEAVE WITHOUT A DEAL? that's what EVERYONE I KNOW WANT. Oh AND WE WON. Which is why we are not marching everywhere and starting petitions. THose that loose always make the most noise, whilst the winners just sit back in the knowledge they won and wait for what they won to be delivered.

Jesus H if it's not I can see MASSIVE problems to erupt country wide.
		
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Then I suggest you find a padding lined bunker, with no access to the internet, and stay there until April 13 at least - probably better, for all of us, to make that May 23rd


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## patricks148 (Mar 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I think we can leave Scotland and N. Ireland out of all debates on this as both these countries want to stay in tied to the UK, as the UK give them money and also want to stay in the EU as, guess what?, they give them money. So they want it all ways, because they are getting it...all ways. It's just England getting sweet fanny adams and having to stump up readies for these countries and getting sweet fanny adams back. Hence why we voted OUT and luckilly, their are more people in England. Oh and Wales voted out as they get sweet fanny adams too, which is why they voted out as well. Why can you arguementative lot not see this?[/QUOTE

don't most of the  inf restructure projects paid for by the tax payer happen to be in the SE of England?
		
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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've typed that in google and genuinely do not know what you are referring to.
		
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Try YouTube. Youâ€™ll find plenty there. Think the Commission made him â€œleader of the houseâ€ for Brexit. He got some sort of position but I canâ€™t remember what it is.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2019)

My wife and I have a broad eclectic circle of friends, two or three Tory voters have said that they will never vote Tory again.
A couple of former 'staunch' unionists now say that they will support Indy2 as a means of staying in the EU but would never ever vote SNP.
Scots Tory voters moving towards supporting Indy2 seems to be gathering a wee bit of momentum now.
No one that we know have changed their view from stay to leave.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Try YouTube. Youâ€™ll find plenty there. Think the Commission made him â€œleader of the houseâ€ for Brexit. He got some sort of position but I canâ€™t remember what it is.
		
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He's 'Brexit Coordinator'.

Certainly not a politician whose views I generally support! Reminds me of Bull Terrier in many (the bad, not the good traits) ways!

Edit:
Here's a good speech though, well countered by Farage.


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## adam6177 (Mar 25, 2019)

Has anyone found their view on the whole brexit subject has affected their lives /relationships?

I ask as I work in the city for a financial firm which is being impacted by brexit.  Of the 100+ employees I know of only 3 people (myself included) that voted leave, everyone else is strongly remain and very vocal about it.... Some in the office have taken time to talk to me about my view and we have had good exchanges on the pros and cons of the scenarios, others however actively won't talk to me about it and are genuinely dumbfounded that I still would vote leave again if another referendum took place.

I too know that I have lost "friends" on Facebook because I voted leave.

Anyone else have similar experiences ?


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## IanM (Mar 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've typed that in google and genuinely do not know what you are referring to.
		
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I linked it on here a few days ago.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Has anyone found their view on the whole brexit subject has affected their lives /relationships?

I ask as I work in the city for a financial firm which is being impacted by brexit.  Of the 100+ employees I know of only 3 people (myself included) that voted leave, everyone else is strongly remain and very vocal about it.... Some in the office have taken time to talk to me about my view and we have had good exchanges on the pros and cons of the scenarios, others however actively won't talk to me about it and are genuinely dumbfounded that I still would vote leave again if another referendum took place.

I too know that I have lost "friends" on Facebook because I voted leave.

Anyone else have similar experiences ?
		
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Honestly havenâ€™t had that, one of my best mates at work is a leaver and we talk about it a lot but wouldnâ€™t not talk to someone for their views on it


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Has anyone found their view on the whole brexit subject has affected their lives /relationships?

I ask as I work in the city for a financial firm which is being impacted by brexit.  Of the 100+ employees I know of only 3 people (myself included) that voted leave, everyone else is strongly remain and very vocal about it.... Some in the office have taken time to talk to me about my view and we have had good exchanges on the pros and cons of the scenarios, others however actively won't talk to me about it and are genuinely dumbfounded that I still would vote leave again if another referendum took place.

I too know that I have lost "friends" on Facebook because I voted leave.

Anyone else have similar experiences ?
		
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I've had a few Leave voters ask me why I voted Remain. Some can't understand why I don't agree with them. 

I'm surprised how many Brits in Spain voted Leave, some of which I play golf with. Those out here that voted Leave, you have to have a UK address to have voted, are already feeling the pinch... the Â£ down 10% since the vote... the need for private health insurance, many buying it before it becomes compulsory just in case... the need to sort out a Spanish driving licence... the rush by those under the radar to become legal, and before the 3rd country requirements are enforced, which are a lot tougher. Spain has cancelled all appointments for Residencia until after the UK decides whats happening.

Some Remain voters out here are very vocal, especially those residing here who weren't allowed to vote even though it has very serious implications for them. The abuse on FB from some is very sharp.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™m just making the point to those who donâ€™t seem to actually understand that the gov can change their mind if they see fit because itâ€™s not legally binding and never was.

If itâ€™s correct or not to do so is a debate for another time but for drive4show and socket to suggest to donâ€™t understand because once you have voted they HAVE to put it though is again WRONG

If itâ€™s not legally binding then they donâ€™t have to do anything if they donâ€™t want to.

Just pointing out some facts to 2 people who like to try to talk down to me because they canâ€™t seem to grasp that whilst it may morally be wrong to change the outcome of the vote the gov can do whatever they like here.

Once again

Not legally binding.

I hope the understood and kept up ðŸ‘Œ
		
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Chris and I both understand it is not a legally binding result but that is not what we are debating. We are debating the issue of how democracy works. The public voted to leave, the correct democratic process now is for the government to see that through.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 25, 2019)

adam6177 - No would be the answer. I do know people who voted differently to me and who are as strident as Crazyface. It is not something I feel the need to debate with when I chat with them. If I do, if it gets raised, then it is a little like a chat between friends when they support different football teams. We disagree, we will debate but it does not mean we can not talk to each other or walk away as friends still. It is undoubtedly a subject that has rocked the country though. I hear this being talked about in all sorts of situations where normal politics would never be discussed and it would not surprise me if friendships had become strained.

Hobbit - That does not surprise me at all. I know some elderly expats, okay not a scientific cross section by any means, but they tend to view the UK they left behind with a bit of disdain and hark back to 'the good old days'. Getting out of the EU suits that narrative. Always makes me chuckle when they moan about immigrants when that is what they have become. To balance this, I also know others who have worried greatly about it but I know more of the former than the latter.


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## IanM (Mar 25, 2019)

,,,the campaign to ignore the referendum is responsbile for much if not all of that FX change...  "Old God! We're all going to die!"  Hardly going to do the markets any good!   

Although for ex-pats, any changes in regs are a huge  worry.  I thought the UK Govt has already guaranteed rights for EU Nationals already in the UK.  The EU not reciprocated then?


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## IanM (Mar 25, 2019)

drive4show said:



			The public voted to leave, the correct democratic process now is for the government to see that through.
		
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Name a vote against the EU that was allowed to stand.  I cant think of a single one.


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2019)

IanM said:



			Name a vote against the EU that was allowed to stand.  I cant think of a single one.
		
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This is my worry.


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Hobbit - That does not surprise me at all. I know some elderly expats, okay not a scientific cross section by any means, but they tend to view the UK they left behind with a bit of disdain and hark back to 'the good old days'. Getting out of the EU suits that narrative. Always makes me chuckle when they moan about immigrants when that is what they have become. To balance this, I also know others who have worried greatly about it but I know more of the former than the latter.
		
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I donâ€™t doubt there are expats out here with those ideas. Thereâ€™s certainly Brit pubs out here I wouldnâ€™t visit twice... a couple remind me of the roughest pubs in the Boro.

Pretty much everyone Iâ€™ve spoken to out here that voted Leave have done so because they donâ€™t like Brussels rule...simple as that. Some then talk about the Common Market that they voted in favour of.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 25, 2019)

IanM said:



			Name a vote against the EU that was allowed to stand.  I cant think of a single one.
		
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Not sure if you've been watching the news recently but The EU are not stopping us from agreeing a withdrawal agreement. Parliament (as in the UK one, not the EU one just for clarification) has had 2 opportunities to vote to leave and have managed not to do so. And whilst I am sure they are sad to see us go, the EU want the agreement signed so everyone can move on and we can begin withdrawing from the EU.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I donâ€™t doubt there are expats out here with those ideas. Thereâ€™s certainly Brit pubs out here I wouldnâ€™t visit twice... a couple remind me of the roughest pubs in the Boro.

Pretty much everyone Iâ€™ve spoken to out here that voted Leave have done so because they donâ€™t like Brussels rule...simple as that. Some then talk about the Common Market that they voted in favour of.
		
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I was just coming back to add to my post but you typed too quickly. The expats I know are from an older generation than you. They are from the age group that largely voted leave so whether they live in the UK or Spain, they hold similar views still. There is a whole new era of ex-pats, which you are part of, that I have no friends / relatives involved in, apart from yourself , that will look differently upon all of this. I should have made that clear. I did point out it was a wholly unscientific survey so that was my get out


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 25, 2019)

IanM said:



			Name a vote against the EU that was allowed to stand.  I cant think of a single one.
		
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Hacker Khan said:



			Not sure if you've been watching the news recently but The EU are not stopping us from agreeing a withdrawal agreement. Parliament (as in the UK one, not the EU one just for clarification) has had 2 opportunities to vote to leave and have managed not to do so. And whilst I am sure they are sad to see us go, the EU want the agreement signed so everyone can move on and we can begin withdrawing from the EU.
		
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Ian I am unable to answer your question but Hacker has done it very eloquently on my behalf


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## IanM (Mar 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not sure if you've been watching the news recently but The EU are not stopping us from agreeing a withdrawal agreement. Parliament (as in the UK one, not the EU one just for clarification) has had 2 opportunities to vote to leave and have managed not to do so. And whilst I am sure they are sad to see us go, the EU want the agreement signed so everyone can move on and we can begin withdrawing from the EU.
		
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Not sure what your reply has to do with my posting.  I was refering to votes against the EU that have all been re-run or ignored across several member states.  (On Membership, Treaties, and Budgets)

Our Parliamentary fudge is simple... A deal Leavers hate, and Remainers will only support staying in.  Taking No-Deal off the table confirmed what is going on.  Would any of you visit a car show room or Estate Agent with no "walk away" option available???

Our Referendum will be the same.  Keep voting to EU wins.

Ethically the 2nd Ref should be "No Deal" or May's Deal.  (Remain option defeated in first ballot)  But Aldershot Town will win the Champions League before that happens!


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			No problem. It's what the people I know are saying. just because you are one of the moaning minnies who lost. We are getting fed up of all this garbage. And I can tell you whan I speak to people they are becoming more and more irate and VERY vocal. it will blow up big style if we do not leave.
		
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I think from your posting history we can all guess the people you know - wouldnâ€™t surprise me if you are all members of the EDL 

And I suspect it wonâ€™t blow up â€œbig style â€œ at all - I believe the â€œloudâ€ Brexiteers are a small group


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## DRW (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*I think from your posting history we can all guess the people you know - wouldnâ€™t surprise me if you are all members of the EDL*

And I suspect it wonâ€™t blow up â€œbig style â€œ at all - I believe the â€œloudâ€ Brexiteers are a small group
		
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A little bit personal post LP.


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## Dando (Mar 25, 2019)

IanM said:



			Intersting   - not a single comment on the Guy Verhofstadt  video.
		
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the "leaked" one of him and Merkel?


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## Dando (Mar 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh we do see it VERY clearly.
What you seek will lead to England and perhaps Wales out of the UK and out of the EU and in the splendid isolation that half of its population seem to desperately seek.
		
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It was more than half!


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## DRW (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Honestly havenâ€™t had that, one of my best mates at work is a leaver and we talk about it a lot but wouldnâ€™t not talk to someone for their views on it
		
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Very much my experience with remains or leaves people.

Most people who I have spoken to, are just worry about what it will mean for them and their businesses moving forward and most do not believe it will be good news in the short term(ie. varies but generally between the next 1-10 years)


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			adam6177 - No would be the answer. I do know people who voted differently to me and who are as strident as Crazyface. It is not something I feel the need to debate with when I chat with them. If I do, if it gets raised, then it is a little like a chat between friends when they support different football teams. We disagree, we will debate but it does not mean we can not talk to each other or walk away as friends still. It is undoubtedly a subject that has rocked the country though. I hear this being talked about in all sorts of situations where normal politics would never be discussed and it would not surprise me if friendships had become strained.

Hobbit - That does not surprise me at all. I know some elderly expats, okay not a scientific cross section by any means, but they tend to view the UK they left behind with a bit of disdain and hark back to 'the good old days'. Getting out of the EU suits that narrative. *Always makes me chuckle when they moan about immigrants when that is what they have become*. To balance this, I also know others who have worried greatly about it but I know more of the former than the latter.
		
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The bold bit makes me chuckle too!

Btw. I'm an immigrant (since '88) also!


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

IanM said:



			Name a vote against the EU that was allowed to stand.  I cant think of a single one.
		
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I can't think of a single 'whole UK' 'vote against the EU' in the first place!

What 'votes' are you refering to?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2019)

DRW said:



			Very much my experience with remains or leaves people.

Most people who I have spoken to, are just worry about what it will mean for them and their businesses moving forward and most do not believe it will be good news in the short term(ie. varies but generally between the next 1-10 years)
		
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See Iâ€™m more worried about what itâ€™s like for others. Iâ€™ve taken care of myself and my family. Iâ€™m in a job that isnâ€™t affected by this luckily and I fixed my mortgage for 10 years in sept so I know the budget for 10 years is set and once the dust is settled we can have another look and decide our next step

However not everyone has this luxuary and too many people live on the bread line as it is.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

IanM said:



			Not sure what your reply has to do with my posting.  I was refering to votes against the EU that have all been re-run or ignored across several member states.  (On Membership, Treaties, and Budgets)
...
		
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Please specify which ones!

The only one I really know much about was the Irish initial rejection of the Lisbon Treaty. That rejection caused significant amendments/additions to the Lisbon Treaty and a subsequent referendum approved the new version. To me, that's not a re-run; it's a demonstration of how Democracy should work!


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## IanM (Mar 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I can't think of a single 'whole UK' 'vote against the EU' in the first place!

What 'votes' are you refering to?
		
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Seriously?   Demark,France, Ireland, Greece, for starters... get googling - there are others.

Edit.  Irish amendments to Lisbon subsequently erroded by further treaties.  Again, see the video I refered to earlier, their intent is full Federalism and they don't care what folk vote for.  Our Referendum will be over turned.

Name ONE that was accepted?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			and too many people live on the bread line as it is.
		
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Maybe that's because we are pumping billions into the economies of other countries that we could be using to provide for our own citizens


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## IanM (Mar 25, 2019)

...and just for fun today... Marr on the BBC 7 guests.  5 Remainers.  Nice balance! (again)


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## GB72 (Mar 25, 2019)

Interesting to see how things go if the indicative votes take place. Have to be free from party obligations otherwise we are going to end up with an option having an indicative majority that then does not get support if put to a full and proper vote. On that basis, at least we will see where Parliament really stands on the whole Brexit issue. Clearly there are some who have tied their mast to the 'leave at all costs' or 'remain' camps but it will be interesting to see how the rest vote. Do we have the remain parliament that many are assuming, do we have a leave parliament that just wants a softer option, who really knows and so over the next couple of days there we may see MPs forced to put their cards on the table. Their consituents will then be free to commment as to whether they support the stance that they are taking. 

Having done some reasearch, I cannot see the Common Market 2.0 or Norway Plus being realistic. Aside from not really being a leave option (and this comes from a remainer) the deal that we would want would mean changes to all sorts of European rules that come with these deals, not least of which being freedom of movement which has only been exempted once in the case of Lichtenstein as it was deemed too small a country to be able to cope. That leave the current deal, no deal and remain. If there is no support for no deal in Parliament then these votes may see a switch to support for the TM deal but it will be interesting to see how many are willing to stick their neck out and vote remain as it will taint any future comment made from them and could wreck a few careers if their constituency is for leave. 

Whatever your feelings about her (I am not a massive fan but thought that she had an impossible task that she could have handled better) I think TM has to resign once this is over. This has created too much baggage and it would hamper her for years to come. For once it would be better to have a clean slate so as the new PM can blame it on the last lot.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

IanM said:



			Seriously?   Demark,France, Ireland, Greece, for starters... get googling - there are others.

Edit.  Irish amendments to Lisbon subsequently erroded by further treaties.  Again, see the video I refered to earlier, their intent is full Federalism and they don't care what folk vote for.  Our Referendum will be over turned.

Name ONE that was accepted?
		
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ALL results were accepted!

That acceptance prompted changes to the initial text of the treaties and, as a result, the amended treaty was passed (except for the Greek Bailout one, which wasn't re-put) in subsequent referendums! Likewise, the rejection of its bailout agreement caused subsequent changes (for the worse!!) in those conditions! It wasn't put to a referendum for a couple of compelling reasons!

I sincerely hope our one will not be overturned, even though I voted Remain!



IanM said:



			..
And...Germany now in recession. ...
		
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Btw. I noticed this in an earlier one of your posts. Can you provide confirmation? Or is simply another exaggeration?


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2019)

I know one person who has admitted to voting leave and when he is present we simply speak no politics. I know that when he voted leave it caused an issue with his long term girlfriend and they had to have some serious conversations about their future after that.

I genuinely can't see me ever being close friends with hardcore leavers because their ideologies would probably be polar opposites to mine.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Maybe that's because we are pumping billions into the economies of other countries that we could be using to provide for our own citizens  

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Think whatâ€™s more likely without the â€œcontrolâ€ of the Eu their will be little to stop the tories corroding away legalisation that protects the working class . More hours, for same money with less time off.. sick pay who needs that.. etc etc.. without the stuff we have because of the Eu the tories can crush the working class and build their perfect working model. Max work for minimum pay ðŸ‘Œ


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2019)

I play with people who voted both leave and remain - all are sick of the whole process right now but itâ€™s not changed anyone and certainly hasnâ€™t resulted in any loss of friendships - I donâ€™t care how people voted , doesnâ€™t change who they are as a person , and certainly havenâ€™t felt the need to pigeon hole someone based on how they voted.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Think whatâ€™s more likely without the â€œcontrolâ€ of the Eu their will be little to stop the tories corroding away legalisation that protects the working class . More hours, for same money with less time off.. sick pay who needs that.. etc etc.. without the stuff we have because of the Eu the tories can crush the working class and build their perfect working model. Max work for minimum pay ðŸ‘Œ
		
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That's an extreme view that's simply never going to happen imo!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Think whatâ€™s more likely without the â€œcontrolâ€ of the Eu their will be little to stop the tories corroding away legalisation that protects the working class . More hours, for same money with less time off.. sick pay who needs that.. etc etc.. without the stuff we have because of the Eu the tories can crush the working class and build their perfect working model. Max work for minimum pay ðŸ‘Œ
		
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Do you seriously think we will return to the dark ages if/when we leave?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Do you seriously think we will return to the dark ages if/when we leave?
		
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Itâ€™s something that worries me. There is nothing to stop them changing the laws once Eu stops being there.. at the moment the Eu provide far more protection for workers than they seem to realise 

It may not happen but itâ€™s a risk I believe increases if we leave


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think from your posting history we can all guess the people you know - wouldnâ€™t surprise me if you are all members of the EDL

And I suspect it wonâ€™t blow up â€œbig style â€œ at all - I believe the â€œloudâ€ Brexiteers are a small group
		
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 Have a look back at your posts from the tail end of last week. You were predicting all sorts of unrest.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



 Have a look back at your posts from the tail end of last week. You were predicting all sorts of unrest. 

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Unrest ? Was I ? I donâ€™t remember predicting that


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			I know one person who has admitted to voting leave and when he is present we simply speak no politics. I know that when he voted leave it caused an issue with his long term girlfriend and they had to have some serious conversations about their future after that.

I genuinely can't see me ever being close friends with hardcore leavers because their ideologies would probably be polar opposites to mine.
		
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If you can't have political differences with your friends without keeping them at arms length then it speaks volumes for your bad attitude.   Take a long look at yourself man


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			See Iâ€™m more worried about what itâ€™s like for others. Iâ€™ve taken care of myself and my family. Iâ€™m in a job that isnâ€™t affected by this luckily and I fixed my mortgage for 10 years in sept so I know the budget for 10 years is set and once the dust is settled we can have another look and decide our next step

However not everyone has this luxuary and too many people live on the bread line as it is.
		
Click to expand...

As we are still members of the EU and you think it the best thing for us, then why do too many people live on the bread line as you suggest.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 25, 2019)

He's got a point 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110213435315224579


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			As we are still members of the EU and you think it the best thing for us, then why do too many people live on the bread line as you suggest.
		
Click to expand...

Fundermental under investment in infrastructure and services by central government. If we werenâ€™t in the Eu they wouldnâ€™t suddenly find extra for the nhs which they have said already so itâ€™s mismanagement of public funds. 

But hey letâ€™s cut all ties why not? Survival of the fittest and richest .. why not. Be great .


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 25, 2019)

So apparently May's deal won't pass, No Deal is off the table, so what else is there?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110204866000027648


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So apparently May's deal won't pass, No Deal is off the table, so what else is there?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110204866000027648

Click to expand...

Wow!


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Has anyone found their view on the whole brexit subject has affected their lives /relationships?

I ask as I work in the city for a financial firm which is being impacted by brexit.  Of the 100+ employees I know of only 3 people (myself included) that voted leave, everyone else is strongly remain and very vocal about it.... Some in the office have taken time to talk to me about my view and we have had good exchanges on the pros and cons of the scenarios, others however actively won't talk to me about it and are genuinely dumbfounded that I still would vote leave again if another referendum took place.

I too know that I have lost "friends" on Facebook because I voted leave.

Anyone else have similar experiences ?
		
Click to expand...

Slightly interesting indoors at times as we view things differently ðŸ˜ Other than that no great problems, just the occasional issues on here, usually with people who like to talk down to others and are then surprised when they receive the same treatment. Genuine friends will understand and respect your views, as you will theirs.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2019)

So reading whatâ€™s happened today it seems 

They wonâ€™t vote through Mays deal 

She will only leave with a No Deal if the majority want a No Deal and it seems itâ€™s clear there isnâ€™t a majority for a No Deal

So where the hell does that leave the country ? 

Maybe they need to think of the public for once and not themselves 

I donâ€™t want a No Deal but I donâ€™t want this to keep going on 

I donâ€™t want another vote , donâ€™t want a General Election. 

So what the hell are we left with 

What a mess - well done the MPâ€™s -


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So reading whatâ€™s happened today it seems

They wonâ€™t vote through Mays deal

She will only leave with a No Deal if the majority want a No Deal and it seems itâ€™s clear there isnâ€™t a majority for a No Deal

So where the hell does that leave the country ?

Maybe they need to think of the public for once and not themselves

I donâ€™t want a No Deal but I donâ€™t want this to keep going on

I donâ€™t want another vote , donâ€™t want a General Election.

So what the hell are we left with

What a mess - well done the MPâ€™s -
		
Click to expand...

What a convenient mess

We have decided to revoke article 50.. each party can blame each other for voting down options 

Brexit swept under the rug


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2019)

Any chance the EU could put us out of the misery our elected members are causing and just throw us out? Please.

If they don't it will prove that they only want our money, as you couldn't seriously want us for our political expertise, judging by the current farce.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2019)

Shamelessly stolen from social media;

Dear New Zealand,

Please can we borrow your Prime Minister?  Ours is broken & we don't have a spare.  We promise to look after her.

Thanks,

The UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2019)

Letwin, Clarke, Hosie and Cooper currently making more sense of Brexit in 30 mins than May's rabble have in two and a half years.
Trouble is there are only about 30 MP's in da hoose


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Shamelessly stolen from social media;

Dear New Zealand,

Please can we borrow your Prime Minister?  Ours is broken & we don't have a spare.  We promise to look after her.

Thanks,

The UK.
		
Click to expand...


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So reading whatâ€™s happened today it seems

They wonâ€™t vote through Mays deal

She will only leave with a No Deal if the majority want a No Deal and it seems itâ€™s clear there isnâ€™t a majority for a No Deal

So where the hell does that leave the country ?

Maybe they need to think of the public for once and not themselves

I donâ€™t want a No Deal but I donâ€™t want this to keep going on

I donâ€™t want another vote , donâ€™t want a General Election.

So what the hell are we left with

What a mess - well done the MPâ€™s -
		
Click to expand...

Liddington comes in as temporary PM. SR regrets not putting a tenner on it. He goes for a softer Brexit and gets labour support. Gets his vote passed. ERG go mad and a few join UKIP. Farage arranges another march. General election called, only 585 people vote as everyone is so disenfranchised with politics. The Green Party form the new government. Everyone lives happily every after. Apart from the fact we are living in a post apocalyptic Brexit wasteland.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So reading whatâ€™s happened today it seems

They wonâ€™t vote through Mays deal

She will only leave with a No Deal if the majority want a No Deal and it seems itâ€™s clear there isnâ€™t a majority for a No Deal

So where the hell does that leave the country ?
...
		
Click to expand...

Exactly where the EU was hoping UK would be!


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## Fade and Die (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So reading whatâ€™s happened today it seems

They wonâ€™t vote through Mays deal

She will only leave with a No Deal if the majority want a No Deal and it seems itâ€™s clear there isnâ€™t a majority for a No Deal

So where the hell does that leave the country ?

Maybe they need to think of the public for once and not themselves

I donâ€™t want a No Deal but I donâ€™t want this to keep going on

I donâ€™t want another vote , donâ€™t want a General Election.

So what the hell are we left with

What a mess - well done the MPâ€™s -
		
Click to expand...


It took 30,000+ posts but you finally got there Phil. Excellent post well done.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So apparently May's deal won't pass, No Deal is off the table, so what else is there?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110204866000027648

Click to expand...

How can no deal be off the table?
The votes on the selected amendments don't take place until 10:00 pm and won't be voted on until wednesday. Even then they are only advisory.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Liddington comes in as temporary PM. SR regrets not putting a tenner on it. He goes for a softer Brexit and gets labour support. Gets his vote passed. ERG go mad and a few join UKIP. Farage arranges another march. General election called, only 585 people vote as everyone is so disenfranchised with politics. The Green Party form the new government. Everyone lives happily every after. Apart from the fact we are living in a post apocalyptic Brexit wasteland.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know I never put a tenner on it?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Fundermental under investment in infrastructure and services by central government. If we werenâ€™t in the Eu they wouldnâ€™t suddenly find extra for the nhs which they have said already so itâ€™s mismanagement of public funds. 

But hey letâ€™s cut all ties why not? Survival of the fittest and richest .. why not. Be great .
		
Click to expand...

So what you're suggesting is the EU does nothing for us. Best we cut the ties an stop giving them all this money and focus then.  Hey Ho, everyone's a winner.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So what you're suggesting is the EU does nothing for us. Best we cut the ties an stop giving them all this money and focus then.  Hey Ho, everyone's a winner.
		
Click to expand...

The Eu has provided Britâ€™s with so many job opportunities and the ability to live and work throughout 

You could take all the negative of the Eu add it all up times by 100 and it still wouldnâ€™t come close to how much good as come from it.


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## jp5 (Mar 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How can no deal be off the table?
The votes on the selected amendments don't take place until 10:00 pm and won't be voted on until wednesday. Even then they are only advisory.
		
Click to expand...

The referendum was also advisory


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2019)

jp5 said:



			The referendum was also advisory 

Click to expand...

But the legislation to implement the result wasn't


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The Eu has provided Britâ€™s with so many job opportunities and the ability to live and work throughout 

You could take all the negative of the Eu add it all up times by 100 and it still wouldnâ€™t come close to how much good as come from it.
		
Click to expand...

Everything you post is so wrong I find it unbelievable how you come up with so much balderdash.  There is no point with trying to ask you or explain where you're wrong as you just gush out more of it.  Try engaging brain before putting mouth in gear. ðŸ‘Œ


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## Tashyboy (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The Eu has provided Britâ€™s with so many job opportunities and the ability to live and work throughout

You could take all the negative of the Eu add it all up times by 100 and it still wouldnâ€™t come close to how much good as come from it.
		
Click to expand...

But at what cost to migration, the NHS, laws, democracy etc etc etc. And that is what the last 395 pages are all about, and the remainers that have not been affected by any of this fail to understand what the leavers have been affected by. ðŸ‘ 
But for me now it is more than just remain v leave. It is about upholding democracy. Something the remainers do not understand.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

jp5 said:



			The referendum was also advisory 

Click to expand...

What's that to do with the price of fish.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			But the legislation to implement the result wasn't
		
Click to expand...

It's casting pearls before swine mate.


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## Slime (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The Eu has provided Britâ€™s with so many job opportunities and the ability to live and work throughout

*You could take all the negative of the Eu add it all up times by 100 and it still wouldnâ€™t come close to how much good as come from it.*

Click to expand...

IN YOUR OPINION !!


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## jp5 (Mar 25, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			But for me now it is more than just remain v leave. It is about upholding democracy. Something the remainers do not understand.
		
Click to expand...

That's a poor comment Tashy. The remainers are just as democratic as anyone else. If they secure a ratification vote on the deal then it will be through just as democratic channels as the original referendum was forced by UKIP.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The Eu has provided Britâ€™s with so many job opportunities and the ability to live and work throughout

You could take all the negative of the Eu add it all up times by 100 and it still wouldnâ€™t come close to how much good as come from it.
		
Click to expand...


This post proves that the EU is like a religion for you... You lap it all up, it is beyond question and anyone that does question it is a heretic.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 25, 2019)

jp5 said:



			That's a poor comment Tashy. *The remainers are just as democratic* as anyone else. If they secure a ratification vote on the deal then it will be through just as democratic channels as the original referendum was forced by UKIP.
		
Click to expand...

Obvious bait but Iâ€™ll give you a nibble...Go on then, explain how they are trying to overturn a democratic vote for the first time in British history BUT they are â€œjust as democraticâ€ ??

Because in most peoples view not enacting the result is the opposite to democracy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			But at what cost to migration, the NHS, laws, democracy etc etc etc. And that is what the last 395 pages are all about, and the remainers that have not been affected by any of this fail to understand what the leavers have been affected by. ðŸ‘
But for me now it is more than just remain v leave. It is about upholding democracy. *Something the remainers do not understand.*

Click to expand...

Are you not capable of not lumping all people who voted one way into one pigeon hole 

Isnâ€™t being a democracy having a vote , having a say ? What is it that they are not understanding - they had a vote and some people believe that it is their right for free speech to speak and ask for another vote 2 years later to see if the country still feels the same way ? 

â€œBrexiteersâ€ like yourself need to stop pigeon holing people based on how they voted


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you not capable â€œBrexiteersâ€ like yourself need to stop pigeon holing people based on how they voted
		
Click to expand...

j

Unfortunately pigeon holing people at times happens. You did it yourself today when someone made a somewhat unfortunate post when you immediately jumped in and accused the poster of belonging to some extreme right wing organisation.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			This post proves that the EU is like a religion for you... You lap it all up, it is beyond question and anyone that does question it is a heretic.
		
Click to expand...




This guy has made a very good point. 1 million people peacefully coming together . Itâ€™s nice to see something positive rather than hatred.


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## Slime (Mar 25, 2019)

jp5 said:



			That's a poor comment Tashy. *The remainers are just as democratic as anyone else. *If they secure a ratification vote on the deal then it will be through just as democratic channels as the original referendum was forced by UKIP.
		
Click to expand...

So why can so many of them not accept the result of the referendum?


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 26929

This guy has made a very good point. 1 million people peacefully coming together . Itâ€™s nice to see something positive rather than hatred.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed it was, along with the many banners bearing the well known remain slogan "Torys out, Unions In" . Then there was the unity of the 17+ million who voted to leave.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 26929

This guy has made a very good point. 1 million people peacefully coming together . Itâ€™s nice to see something positive rather than hatred.
		
Click to expand...

Dont they all hate Brexit. ðŸ™„


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## Fade and Die (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 26929

This guy has made a very good point. 1 million people peacefully coming together . Itâ€™s nice to see something positive rather than hatred.
		
Click to expand...


 You know for every one of these things you post that you think are â€œZingersâ€ I could counter with 5. Itâ€™s pointless. Give it up mate ffs...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 26929

This guy has made a very good point. 1 million people peacefully coming together . Itâ€™s nice to see something positive rather than hatred.
		
Click to expand...

Independent bodies now put the figure for the march at around 400,000, are remainers going to ask for a 2nd march?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Indeed it was, along with the many banners bearing the well known remain slogan "Torys out, Unions In" . Then there was the unity of the 17+ million who voted to leave.
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			Dont they all hate Brexit. ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...




Fade and Die said:



			You know for every one of these things you post that you think are â€œZingersâ€ I could counter with 5. Itâ€™s pointless. Give it up mate ffs...
		
Click to expand...


Itâ€™s like a pack a wolves - as soon as someone posts something that is potentially positive towards the EU or goes against the leave campaign etc etc and it seems the three of you just leap on it - social media gang mentality. Itâ€™s a common theme throughout the thread - and most of the time itâ€™s snide comments that mainly attack the poster as opposed to trying to counter with something meaningful. Shame people canâ€™t look at the way Hobbit or Dedrel post


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## Fade and Die (Mar 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Independent bodies now put the figure for the march at around 400,000, are remainers going to ask for a 2nd march? 

Click to expand...

Ah the old Abbot tally? Put the decimal point where you like.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Independent bodies now put the figure for the march at around 400,000, are remainers going to ask for a 2nd march? 

Click to expand...

You owe me a new keyboard, just spat coffee all over mine


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## IainP (Mar 25, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 26929

This guy has made a very good point. 1 million people peacefully coming together . Itâ€™s nice to see something positive rather than hatred.
		
Click to expand...

It wasn't your quote but why do some people mix up being European and being in the EU?
Aren't there 20 odd European countries not in the EU.
If the UK does end up leaving, I personally won't feel any less European.

Anyway, agree was good the march was peaceful, often nutjobs can try to hijack these sort of things.
From the clips I saw quite a lot seemed to hate the idea of leaving ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Independent bodies now put the figure for the march at around 400,000, are remainers going to ask for a 2nd march? 

Click to expand...

You owe me a new keyboard ---- covered this one in coffee...


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s like a pack a wolves - as soon as someone posts something that is potentially positive towards the EU or goes against the leave campaign etc etc and it seems the three of you just leap on it - social media gang mentality. Itâ€™s a common theme throughout the thread - and most of the time itâ€™s snide comments that mainly attack the poster as opposed to trying to counter with something meaningful. Shame people canâ€™t look at the way Hobbit or Dedrel post
		
Click to expand...

Nothing like you and the uncalled for remark that you made, or doesn't that count.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Nothing like you and the uncalled for remark that you made, or doesn't that count.
		
Click to expand...

Uncalled remark ? Sorry but which one was that exactly


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Uncalled remark ? Sorry but which one was that exactly
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Phil but I can't resist..... are you saying there's more than one? 

Only joking mate.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s like a pack a wolves - as soon as someone posts something that is potentially positive towards the EU or goes against the leave campaign etc etc and it seems the three of you just leap on it - social media gang mentality. Itâ€™s a common theme throughout the thread - and most of the time itâ€™s snide comments that mainly attack the poster as opposed to trying to counter with something meaningful. Shame people canâ€™t look at the way Hobbit or Dedrel post
		
Click to expand...


Unlike you, I haven't attacked the poster, just made a counter comment. My post count on this and other threads pales into insignificance compared to your pompous righteous posts.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry Phil but I can't resist..... are you saying there's more than one? 

Only joking mate.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ Cheek ðŸ˜‚


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## harpo_72 (Mar 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Ah the old Abbot tally? Put the decimal point where you like.
		
Click to expand...

Or leavers financials or the brexit bus number ...


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Nothing like you and the uncalled for remark that you made, or doesn't that count.
		
Click to expand...

I'm hoping you deleted the post but I'm sure Crazyface will take it as light hearted banter.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s like a pack a wolves - as soon as someone posts something that is potentially positive towards the EU or goes against the leave campaign etc etc and it seems the three of you just leap on it - social media gang mentality. Itâ€™s a common theme throughout the thread - and most of the time itâ€™s snide comments that mainly attack the poster as opposed to trying to counter with something meaningful. Shame people canâ€™t look at the way Hobbit or Dedrel post
		
Click to expand...


Oh behave you old tart.... you was calling Crazyface a member of a far right organisation earlier for posting a few points you did didnâ€™t agree with! Hypocrisy thy name is LiverpoolPhil.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Unlike you, I haven't attacked the poster, just made a counter comment. My post count on this and other threads pales into insignificance compared to your pompous righteous posts.
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean the same poster who dismissed the rights for both N Ireland and Scotland but insulting towards them and also after being insulting towards myself and also people who voted a different way to himself.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you mean the same poster who dismissed the rights for both N Ireland and Scotland but insulting towards them and also after being insulting towards myself and also people who voted a different way to himself.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, the one which I agreed was a poor post but I was sensible enough not to assume the poster was some far right extremist.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Yep, the one which I agreed was a poor post but I was sensible enough not to assume the poster was some far right extremist.
		
Click to expand...

Actually I said â€œit wouldnâ€™t surprise me â€œIFâ€ they were member of the EDL â€œ because of his anti anything but English posting now and also in the past 

Just got to make sure you are being factually correct about what I say 

You carry on being sensible ( let me know when you start )


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Actually I said â€œit wouldnâ€™t surprise me â€œIFâ€ they were member of the EDL â€œ because of his anti anything but English posting now and also in the past

Just got to make sure you are being factually correct about what I say

You carry on being sensible ( let me know when you start )
		
Click to expand...

Not even a half hearted dodge of an inappropriate response to an inappropriate post.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s like a pack a wolves - as soon as someone posts something that is potentially positive towards the EU or goes against the leave campaign etc etc and it seems the three of you just leap on it - social media gang mentality. Itâ€™s a common theme throughout the thread - and most of the time itâ€™s snide comments that mainly attack the poster as opposed to trying to counter with something meaningful. Shame people canâ€™t look at the way Hobbit or Dedrel post
		
Click to expand...

You are rather biased in your condemnation, why didnt you highlight his post where it said it was a change to see people acting peacefully instead of showing hatred.  You do this all the time, jump in with your saintimonious condemnations of people reacting to insulting posts against those that support leaving but its always a one way ticket with you as it is in line with your own preferences.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Actually I said â€œit wouldnâ€™t surprise me â€œIFâ€ they were member of the EDL â€œ because of his anti anything but English posting now and also in the past

Just got to make sure you are being factually correct about what I say

You carry on being sensible ( let me know when you start )
		
Click to expand...

Stop digging,  Its making you sound like you're not taking your own medicne.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you not capable of not lumping all people who voted one way into one pigeon hole

Isnâ€™t being a democracy having a vote , having a say ? What is it that they are not understanding - they had a vote and some people believe that it is their right for free speech to speak and ask for another vote 2 years later to see if the country still feels the same way ?

â€œBrexiteersâ€ like yourself need to stop pigeon holing people based on how they voted
		
Click to expand...

Once more you have jumped on one word phil, one word. If I had meant ALL Remainers I would of said all Remainers. But I never said All remainers. You did. I mean Remainers, the ones that whinge and whine, including those on here, the ones that cannot accept a democratic vote, the ones that cannot accept or even listen to the other side of the arguement. The Remainers that are easily offended. The remainers that think they have a chance of overturning a democratic vote, the whinging whining remainers that want to disregard the will of the people. Why because the incompetent politicians cannot carry out the will of the people.
But guess what Phil, not all remainers think that way, some can actually accept that when it came to a vote they accepted the result.


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## robinthehood (Mar 25, 2019)

Good to see mps taking control, perhaps a way out of this mess at last.


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If you can't have political differences with your friends without keeping them at arms length then it speaks volumes for your bad attitude.   Take a long look at yourself man
		
Click to expand...

Grow up. I gave nowhere near enough information for you to possibly know why it isnâ€™t talked about. Absolutely pathetic from you there. Child.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Good to see mps taking control, perhaps a way out of this mess
		
Click to expand...

I think it's the MP's that have caused this mess. Theresa May has worked tirelessly to find a solution and been let down continuously by all the MP's that are more concerned with their own interests than those of the country.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are rather biased in your condemnation, why didnt you highlight his post where it said it was a change to see people acting peacefully instead of showing hatred.  You do this all the time, jump in with your saintimonious condemnations of people reacting to insulting posts against those that support leaving but its always a one way ticket with you as it is in line with your own preferences.
		
Click to expand...

That's odd you should say that, coz ave just had a rant at one of Phils posts re his interpretations.


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## robinthehood (Mar 25, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I think it's the MP's that have caused this mess. Theresa May has worked tirelessly to find a solution and been let down continuously by all the MP's that are more concerned with their own interests than those of the country.
		
Click to expand...

She's had more than enough time and come up with a crock that no one wanted . All this nonsense that the EU need us more than we need them. What a joke
We're just a nuisance and  no more .
Now we.should be able to overturn the vote and get on with life


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			She's had more than enough time and come up with a crock that no one wanted . All this nonsense that the EU need us more than we need them. What a joke
*We're just a nuisance and  no more .*
Now we.should be able to overturn the vote and get on with life
		
Click to expand...

I can't agree with that, if it was true then the EU would have made it easy for us to leave. They clearly don't want us to.


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## robinthehood (Mar 25, 2019)

They are making it easy, it's not the EU stopping us signing off.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Grow up. I gave nowhere near enough information for you to possibly know why it isnâ€™t talked about. Absolutely pathetic from you there. Child.
		
Click to expand...

You need to sort out your bad attitude.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			They are making it easy, it's not the EU stopping us signing off.
		
Click to expand...

They could of made it easier and not granted us an extension, paving the way for possible no deal.


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I think it's the MP's that have caused this mess. Theresa May has worked tirelessly to find a solution and been let down continuously by all the MP's that are more concerned with their own interests than those of the country.
		
Click to expand...

I know it may not be the right time but I think the UK needs a GE. The last few months, and especially the last few weeks and today feels too much like a coup from the floor.

Forget the issue at hand, its anarchy not to have a working executive.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 25, 2019)

Pretty brutal 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110302682835759106


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I know it may not be the right time but I think the UK needs a GE. The last few months, and especially the last few weeks and today feels too much like a coup from the floor.

Forget the issue at hand, its anarchy not to have a working executive.
		
Click to expand...

Trouble is last time we had one it muddied the waters no end. And if we still do first past the post I can't really see much changing. Apart from maybe more protest voting and Tommy Robinson MP,  god help us.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Pretty brutal


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110302682835759106

Click to expand...

Hopefully he will go in the next election, his vote leave constituancy cant be too impressed.


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## IainP (Mar 25, 2019)

Maybe it is time to give proportional representation a go....


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Trouble is last time we had one it muddied the waters no end. And if we still do first past the post I can't really see much changing. Apart from maybe more protest voting and Tommy Robinson MP,  god help us.
		
Click to expand...

After this debacle there will be a massive protest vote, whichever way things go. As to first past the post; that's what it is. Wishing for something else is a waste of time unless or until it becomes a popular choice. Equally, the current climate of tail wagging the dog is unhealthy. Forget the Brexit issue, is it really wise to have the shop floor ruling the management? The management may well be inept but the answer isn't anarchy, its change the management.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2019)

IainP said:



			Maybe it is time to give proportional representation a go....
		
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We have a hung parliament now, imagine this being the norm.
Would people have been so keen on this if it would have given seats to a raft of UKIP MPs.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We have a hung parliament now, imagine this being the norm.
Would people have been so keen on this if it would have given seats to a raft of UKIP MPs.
		
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I've said before that UKIP deserved more MPs in the last election. Part of the brexit vote was down to people feeling disenfranchised by politics, so give them some representation. It's then up to the more mainstream parties to provide a good option to prevent the extreme parties gaining traction.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Hopefully he will go in the next election, his vote leave constituancy cant be too impressed.
		
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As should Rees Mogg .. he is not representing his constituency but definitely his own agenda


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are rather biased in your condemnation, why didnt you highlight his post where it said it was a change to see people acting peacefully instead of showing hatred.  You do this all the time, jump in with your saintimonious condemnations of people reacting to insulting posts against those that support leaving but its always a one way ticket with you as it is in line with your own preferences.
		
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Why would I highlight that post ? Itâ€™s a post I agree with - the person was spot - it was good to see people acting peacefully towards each other instead of hatred ? You all leapt on that post as if it deeply insulted you all - maybe you should take a step back and look at the way you talk to people on here - especially people who vote a different way to you , your arrogance is astounding.


Tashyboy said:



			Once more you have jumped on one word phil, one word. If I had meant ALL Remainers I would of said all Remainers. But I never said All remainers. You did. I mean Remainers, the ones that whinge and whine, including those on here, the ones that cannot accept a democratic vote, the ones that cannot accept or even listen to the other side of the arguement. The Remainers that are easily offended. The remainers that think they have a chance of overturning a democratic vote, the whinging whining remainers that want to disregard the will of the people. Why because the incompetent politicians cannot carry out the will of the people.
But guess what Phil, not all remainers think that way, some can actually accept that when it came to a vote they accepted the result.
		
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I didnâ€™t â€œleapâ€ on any word - you said â€œremainersâ€ - that is a group of people who voted remain , if you meant just some remainers then you should have said â€œsomeâ€ - to save yourself insulting whole groups be more specific - and ranting after it doesnâ€™t save face 

And people are entitled to say whatever they want about leaving or staying in the EU - thatâ€™s called free speech , they are entitled to have a protest , have a match , create a petition without people like you insulting them - itâ€™s called their democratic right 

At the end of the day the voting public can do nothing - from the minute the vote was complete it was down to the political parties to sort it out - yet people still keep trying to blame â€œremainersâ€

Can you tell me exactly what affect the voting public have had on the process ?


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## Kellfire (Mar 26, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Pretty brutal


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110302682835759106

Click to expand...

Shame about the brutal lie about the Conservativesâ€™ interests.


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## Mudball (Mar 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			After this debacle there will be a massive protest vote, whichever way things go. As to first past the post; that's what it is. Wishing for something else is a waste of time unless or until it becomes a popular choice. Equally, the current climate of tail wagging the dog is unhealthy. Forget the Brexit issue*, is it really wise to have the shop floor ruling the management?* The management may well be inept but the answer isn't anarchy, its change the management.
		
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Isnâ€™t this the microcosm of the Brexit issue .. they put it to the shop floor aka The People who then voted in different ways based on how they or their neighbors felt on that day, some did not turn up and some chose emotion while others chose rationality.  The Shopfloor voted leave and now management canâ€™t deliver it ..


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## Beezerk (Mar 26, 2019)

Great "we really must stay in the EU" tinted story on BBC Breakfast there. Winkers!


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## oxymoron (Mar 26, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Pretty brutal


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110302682835759106

Click to expand...

Funny how he mentions his constituency as his priority but then says he gets feedback from businesses ,,,, sounds like he wants to keep in with his mates there!!!!


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## Crazyface (Mar 26, 2019)

OK. Let's have a GE but only after Nigel is given  a change to get his party properly up and running. I predict that it will gain enough votes to continue the utter chaos in Parliament.


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## jp5 (Mar 26, 2019)

Absolutely we should have an electoral system that better represents the people. AV was a start but was voted against by, I suspect, many people who now complain they are not properly represented in parliament. 

A couple of dozen UKIP MPs in parliament would have exposed their bluster much better than the slow, drawn out direction the Brexit negotiations are taking us in.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Absolutely we should have an electoral system that better represents the people. AV was a start but was voted against by, I suspect, many people who now complain they are not properly represented in parliament.

A couple of dozen UKIP MPs in parliament would have exposed their bluster much better than the slow, drawn out direction the Brexit negotiations are taking us in.
		
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The tories will always oppose such a system because it will stop them having their unbreakable strong holds keeping them in power 

Only 1 million votes in the general election last time round but the amount of seats was uncatchable 

I feel though the major partyâ€™s need to do more. The rise of other parties is only making it easier for the tories to stay in power .. labour need to appeal to the other voters of green and liberal


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 26, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I think it's the MP's that have caused this mess. Theresa May has worked tirelessly to find a solution and been let down continuously by all the MP's that are more concerned with their own interests than those of the country.
		
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Once May put down her 'red lines' it was obvious to me that there would never be a solution.
She has not budged and inch [strong and unstable] and totally ignored and insulted any constructive comments from NI, Scotland and the nice half of her party. OK for her to ignore Labour though as they have added nothing constructive to the process.
The choice has always been her deal or leave no deal.
From what we now understand, some Privy Councillors are horrified at how bad No Deal will be for the nation.
Time for the Queen to step in perhaps.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would I highlight that post ? Itâ€™s a post I agree with - the person was spot - it was good to see people acting peacefully towards each other instead of hatred ? You all leapt on that post as if it deeply insulted you all - maybe you should take a step back and look at the way you talk to people on here - especially people who vote a different way to you , your arrogance is astounding.


I didnâ€™t â€œleapâ€ on any word - you said â€œremainersâ€ - that is a group of people who voted remain , if you meant just some remainers then you should have said â€œsomeâ€ - to save yourself insulting whole groups be more specific - and ranting after it doesnâ€™t save face

And people are entitled to say whatever they want about leaving or staying in the EU - thatâ€™s called free speech , they are entitled to have a protest , have a match , create a petition without people like you insulting them - itâ€™s called their democratic right

At the end of the day the voting public can do nothing - from the minute the vote was complete it was down to the political parties to sort it out - yet people still keep trying to blame â€œremainersâ€

Can you tell me exactly what affect the voting public have had on the process ?
		
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Don't need to save face, seems I am not the only one who has issues with your selective words. Out of interest how many others who have posted on this thread have said " some" remainers or " some" Brexiteers", when talking about this subject. How many times have you pulled them up.


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## Foxholer (Mar 26, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The tories will always oppose such a system because it will stop them having their unbreakable strong holds keeping them in power

*Only 1 million votes in the general election last time round but the amount of seats was uncatchable*

I feel though the major partyâ€™s need to do more. The rise of other parties is only making it easier for the tories to stay in power .. labour need to appeal to the other voters of green and liberal
		
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Speaking of missing important words out....I trust that you meant '1 million MORE votes....'. 

Btw SNP actually got less than 1 million votes, but won 35 seats! That demonstrates how General Elections in UK are different 'beasts' to Referendums!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Speaking of missing important words out....I trust that you meant '1 million MORE votes....'.

Btw SNP actually got less than 1 million votes, but won 35 seats! That demonstrates how General Elections in UK are different 'beasts' to Referendums!
		
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I meant only 1 million votes in the result of the election , but yes 1 million more works the same


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## Mudball (Mar 26, 2019)

So who is running whom?...

1) The MPs dont like Mays deal and wont vote for it..     so they took back control and get their own indicative vote

2) May now says that she will not consider the result of the indicative vote and hers is the only deal.. 

WTF is going on..


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## Crazyface (Mar 26, 2019)

I notice there are a lot of comments regarding the BBC's bias towards Remain. Why not e mail the BBC's programs that do this to complain. I have!  

Also I am very lucky to be in a position of being able to stop work, any time I like, and if we do not come out of the EU I will never work again. My income total cannot currenly be taxed and that will include the pittance the gov will give me to live on, so I will be happy in the knowledge that NONE of my money will be going to support the UNELECTED (remember that bit) EU plonkers and all the new EU countries. Remember Greece being poor? They were allowed to join the EU and we gave them loads of dosh. They all rushed out and bought new cars, but couldn't be bothered to actually do any work to produce anything so ended up in even more debt that they will NEVER EVER be able to pay back even the INTEREST let alone the actual debt. LOL.


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## Crazyface (Mar 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So who is running whom?...

1) The MPs dont like Mays deal and wont vote for it..     so they took back control and get their own indicative vote

2) May now says that she will not consider the result of the indicative vote and hers is the only deal..

WTF is going on..
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha. Someone else has got it!!! Catch 22 I believe this is called. The only way to resolve it iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssssssssssssssssssssss........ another vote.Then we're back in. But then won't we have another one in 2 years......best of three and all that?


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## Foxholer (Mar 26, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just got a ticket to see her in June.







Click to expand...

Nice voice, but a bit too 'wrist slitting-ish' for an entire concert - for me!


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## robinthehood (Mar 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I notice there are a lot of comments regarding the BBC's bias towards Remain. Why not e mail the BBC's programs that do this to complain. I have! 

Also I am very lucky to be in a position of being able to stop work, any time I like, and if we do not come out of the EU I will never work again. My income total cannot currenly be taxed and that will include the pittance the gov will give me to live on, so I will be happy in the knowledge that NONE of my money will be going to support the UNELECTED (remember that bit) EU plonkers and all the new EU countries. Remember Greece being poor? They were allowed to join the EU and we gave them loads of dosh. They all rushed out and bought new cars, but couldn't be bothered to actually do any work to produce anything so ended up in even more debt that they will NEVER EVER be able to pay back even the INTEREST let alone the actual debt. LOL.
		
Click to expand...

its this sort of nonsense that sadly people believe and why we shouldn't have had a referendum.


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## Foxholer (Mar 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			...
Also I am very lucky to be in a position of being able to stop work, any time I like, and if we do not come out of the EU I will never work again. My income total cannot currenly be taxed and that will include the pittance the gov will give me to live on, so I will be happy in the knowledge that NONE of my money will be going to support the UNELECTED (remember that bit) EU plonkers and all the new EU countries. Remember Greece being poor? They were allowed to join the EU and we gave them loads of dosh. They all rushed out and bought new cars, but couldn't be bothered to actually do any work to produce anything so ended up in even more debt that they will NEVER EVER be able to pay back even the INTEREST let alone the actual debt. LOL.
		
Click to expand...

You seem to me to have been a classic 'victim' of the Leave campaign's propaganda!


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## Foxholer (Mar 26, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I notice there are a lot of comments regarding the BBC's bias towards Remain. Why not e mail the BBC's programs that do this to complain. I have!...
		
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I don't believe there's any real bias (either way). The renewed activity ('militancy' even) of the Remain view, both inside and outside Parliament, is THE news story. It would be wrong - and indeed biased - for the Beeb to ignore the 'story'!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Nice voice, but a bit too 'wrist slitting-ish' for an entire concert - for me!
		
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Sorry, I posted in the wrong thread.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			its this sort of nonsense that sadly people believe and why we shouldn't have had a referendum.
		
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Its this sort of nonsense that sadly people believe and why we had a referendum.


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## Foxholer (Mar 26, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sorry, I posted in the wrong thread.
		
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At least it made a change from the usual style of post in this thread!


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			At least it made a change from the usual style of post in this thread! 

Click to expand...

Dit it?  There's plenty of other wrist slitting posts in this thread...


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## jp5 (Mar 26, 2019)

I see Mr Rees Mogg wants to change his mind and vote again for a deal that will make us a "slave state"


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I see Mr Rees Mogg wants to change his mind and vote again for a deal that will make us a "slave state" 

Click to expand...

The Victorian mill owning look mp who doesnâ€™t pay tax on his companies earnings likes a deal to make as a slave state? How long before workers rights are completely corroded away


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## spongebob59 (Mar 26, 2019)

Clear as mud....

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/03/a-snap-election-simply-cannot-happen-and-yet-it-might/


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## GB72 (Mar 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So who is running whom?...

1) The MPs dont like Mays deal and wont vote for it..     so they took back control and get their own indicative vote

2) May now says that she will not consider the result of the indicative vote and hers is the only deal.. 

WTF is going on..
		
Click to expand...

Not quite, Nay has said she may not be able to deliver on the results of the indicative votes as there may be 2 or more incompatible options or europe may not agree. She has also pointed out that she is not legally bound to follow the results, ironically in the same way she is not bound to apply the referendum result


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 26, 2019)

I did enjoy the SNP guy in the Commons yesterday saying that the indicative votes should be made binding as "if our votes don't count we might as well all go home" while at the same time his party is in favour of overturning the referendum result meaning that the votes of 17.4 million people in the UK wouldn't count.


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## Kellfire (Mar 26, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I did enjoy the SNP guy in the Commons yesterday saying that the indicative votes should be made binding as "if our votes don't count we might as well all go home" while at the same time his party is in favour of overturning the referendum result meaning that the votes of 17.4 million people in the UK wouldn't count.
		
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Yea but that's not really the same thing.

One is a group of people tasked with doing the best for the country. It's literally their job.

The other was a group of people who were ignorant to the potential outcome of their actions. It's not their job and we don't have operate in a system whereby the public decide governmental actions


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## Beezerk (Mar 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			One is a group of people tasked with doing the best for the country. It's literally their job.
		
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 Oh how I laughed when I read that


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## User62651 (Mar 26, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I did enjoy the SNP guy in the Commons yesterday saying that the indicative votes should be made binding as "if our votes don't count we might as well all go home" while at the same time his party is in favour of overturning the referendum result meaning that the votes of 17.4 million people in the UK wouldn't count.
		
Click to expand...

What about the 30 Tory MPs who defeated May yesterday, 3 of them resigning their ministerial roles. Talented (and principled) people apparently. Do they not get a mention? Or is it just the nasty SNP? At least they're consistent with their view and your SNP man is after all representing his and all constituency Brexit views (by majority) up here the best he can, that's his job.

If you want your referendum majority to prevail you need the Tory Government to enact it.......except they can't or won't. Blame them.

Tory issue, Tory Government, Tory problem.


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## GB72 (Mar 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			What about the 30 Tory MPs who defeated May yesterday, 3 of them resigning their ministerial roles. Talented (and principled) people apparently. Do they not get a mention? Or is it just the nasty SNP? At least they're consistent with their view and your SNP man is after all representing his and all constituency Brexit views (by majority) up here the best he can, that's his job.

If you want your referendum majority to prevail you need the Tory Government to enact it.......except they can't or won't. Blame them.

Tory issue, Tory Government, Tory problem.
		
Click to expand...

Have to agree with that and I am a Tory voter. A brexit deal was on the table but it was not extreme enough for certain elements of the party who felt that they could push the country into a no deal scenario. That has not panned out and, in fact, gone the other way to looking like a softer brexit if any at all. Now they are all starting to extoll the virtues of the deal on the table. Sadly they are all in it for themselves, the referendum is an irrelevance.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 26, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I see Mr Rees Mogg wants to change his mind and vote again for a deal that will make us a "slave state" 

Click to expand...

Sounds like DUP won't though, So maybe he has gone against everything he said thus losing any credibility he ever had in the minds of the easily deluded for nothing. Shame.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Yea but that's not really the same thing.

One is a group of people tasked with doing the best for the country. It's literally their job.

The other was a group of people who were ignorant to the potential outcome of their actions. It's not their job and *we don't have operate in a system whereby the public decide governmental actions*

Click to expand...

We do, it's called a party manifesto and it is what we use to decide who we want to vote for. The problem is that a lot of those promises are conveniently 'forgotten' about once the party gets elected.


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## GB72 (Mar 26, 2019)

The interesting, but not much reported, press release this week was that the TUC and the CBI both agreed that a no deal brexit was good for nobody. Here you have 2 groups that never see eye to eye, representing totally different areas of the economy saying no deal was a bad thing. So, if it is not good for companies and not good for workers, who is it actually good for.


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## Kellfire (Mar 26, 2019)

drive4show said:



			We do, it's called a party manifesto and it is what we use to decide who we want to vote for. The problem is that a lot of those promises are conveniently 'forgotten' about once the party gets elected.
		
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A manifesto is not a legally binding document, much like the brexit referendum. Again, it's ignorance from voters that drive these expectations.


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## GB72 (Mar 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			A manifesto is not a legally binding document, much like the brexit referendum. Again, it's ignorance from voters that drive these expectations.
		
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Ironically May is getting all the grief but she is the only one saying that she will only support options that are in keeping with the Tory manifesto


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## Kellfire (Mar 26, 2019)

Even as a Labour voter, I'll say that we'll never know if May would've been a good PM or not because she had no chance with this s**t sandwich that she's been served.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 26, 2019)

GB72 said:



			The interesting, but not much reported, press release this week was that the TUC and the CBI both agreed that a no deal brexit was good for nobody. Here you have 2 groups that never see eye to eye, representing totally different areas of the economy saying no deal was a bad thing. So, if it is not good for companies and not good for workers,* who is it actually good for*.
		
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Absolutely nothing, say it again, huh....

I did see this but put it down as ill informed scaremongering from project fear.  After all what do the organisations that are there to forwards the interests of employers and employees know about employing people?????


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Even as a Labour voter, I'll say that *we'll never know if May would've been a good PM* or not because she had no chance with this s**t sandwich that she's been served.
		
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mmmm, I can take an educated guess.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 26, 2019)

New multi million pound deals 'proposed' for Belfast and Londonderry.
This cash for votes Tory government seem to be lacking in any form of moral fibre.
Taking us back to the politics of the 18th century.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			New multi million pound deals 'proposed' for Belfast and Londonderry.
*This cash for votes Tory government seem to be lacking in any form of moral fibre.*
Taking us back to the politics of the 18th century.
		
Click to expand...

You only just worked that one out?


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## Mudball (Mar 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			New multi million pound deals 'proposed' for Belfast and Londonderry.
This cash for votes Tory government seem to be lacking in any form of moral fibre.
Taking us back to the politics of the 18th century.
		
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Where did you see this news?  I am not at all amazed at how low this is stooped to..  I think i mentioned this 'cash for favours' would happen a few pages ago.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			A manifesto is not a legally binding document, much like the brexit referendum. Again, it's ignorance from voters that drive these expectations.
		
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Thats an odd way to look at it.   If you ordered a Steak and Chips in a restaurant and the waiter brought you an omelette and garnish would you be happy if they told you the menu wasn't legal.


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## Foxholer (Mar 26, 2019)

GB72 said:



			The interesting, but not much reported, press release this week was that the TUC and the CBI both agreed that a no deal brexit was good for nobody. Here you have 2 groups that never see eye to eye, representing totally different areas of the economy saying no deal was a bad thing. So, if it is not good for companies and not good for workers, who is it actually good for.
		
Click to expand...

Nobody!

Which is why 'deals' will rapidly be made should this happen!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats an odd way to look at it.   If you ordered a Steak and Chips in a restaurant and the waiter brought you an omelette and garnish would you be happy if they told you the menu wasn't legal.
		
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if the menu wasn't legal and say they were serving horse steak then I'd quite like to get an omelette instead.  And can I have chips with the omelette instead of garnish?  Proper thick cut British chips, none of your French fries rubbish.


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## Foxholer (Mar 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			...
Tory issue, Tory Government, Tory problem.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly a Tory issue and with a Tory government voted in, it's indeed a Tory problem. But had Labour been voted in at either subsequent election, it would have been their problem - and they'd have had the same problems implementing the Referendum's result imo!

Perhaps a 'good election to lose', though Corbyn is still unelectable imo!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			A manifesto is not a legally binding document, much like the brexit referendum. Again, it's ignorance from voters that drive these expectations.
		
Click to expand...

Nobody said it was a legally binding document. And it's not ignorance by voters, it's lies from politicians.


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## Kellfire (Mar 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats an odd way to look at it.   If you ordered a Steak and Chips in a restaurant and the waiter brought you an omelette and garnish would you be happy if they told you the menu wasn't legal.
		
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I would be entering a legal contract whereby I am entitled to steak and chips. 

A manifesto is not a legal contract. 

Thanks for highlighting my point. Youâ€™re maybe finally getting this!


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## drdel (Mar 26, 2019)

I see in their 'No Deal' contingency plans the EU and Ireland have declared they will not put a hard border between Ireland and NI but will use 'alternative means' - interesting in that they have told the UK there are no alternative means hence their back stop intransigence.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			I would be entering a legal contract whereby I am entitled to steak and chips.

A manifesto is not a legal contract.

Thanks for highlighting my point. Youâ€™re maybe finally getting this!
		
Click to expand...

You mean like going into a restaurant and asking for steak, waiter disappears then comes back and says they are out of steak but can do you an omelette?


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## Foxholer (Mar 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats an odd way to look at it.   If you ordered a Steak and Chips in a restaurant and the waiter brought you an omelette and garnish would you be happy if they told you the menu wasn't legal.
		
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Not your best analogy!


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats an odd way to look at it.   If you ordered a Steak and Chips in a restaurant and the waiter brought you an omelette and garnish would you be happy if they told you the menu wasn't legal.
		
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Doesn't that analogy work equally for Brexit? The Leave campaign promised filet mignon, lobster and a 1959 Chateau Lafite but have actually delivered a dog turd sandwich and a glass of warm piss to your table.


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## IainP (Mar 26, 2019)

This made me think of DelC !
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47704345


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 26, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Doesn't that analogy work equally for Brexit? The Leave campaign promised filet mignon, lobster and a 1959 Chateau Lafite but have actually delivered a dog turd sandwich and a glass of warm piss to your table.
		
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Your analogy doesn't work at all because nothing has been delivered yet ðŸ˜‰


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Your analogy doesn't work at all because nothing has been delivered yet ðŸ˜‰
		
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If you waited this long for your order you would cancel it and rethink your plans


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## adam6177 (Mar 26, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			If you waited this long for your order you would cancel it and rethink your plans
		
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No, I'd get out of there asap as the establishment is obviously incompetent.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Not your best analogy!

Click to expand...

In respect to his comment on the Referendum I thinks its perfect.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			if the menu wasn't legal and say they were serving horse steak then I'd quite like to get an omelette instead.  And can I have chips with the omelette instead of garnish?  Proper thick cut British chips, none of your French fries rubbish.
		
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And a nice knitted Yogurt for desert.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			I would be entering a legal contract whereby I am entitled to steak and chips.

A manifesto is not a legal contract.

Thanks for highlighting my point. Youâ€™re maybe finally getting this!
		
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Menu entering a legal contract. ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			If you waited this long for your order you would cancel it and rethink your plans
		
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You would get out and find a restaurant that treated you better and didn't insist you could only eat there if the waiter could live in your house.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You would get out and find a restaurant that treated you better and didn't insist you could only eat there if the waiter could live in your house.
		
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Iâ€™d happily accept the discounts for him living there rather than make the poor guy homeless


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 26, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™d happily accept the discounts for him living there rather than make the poor guy homeless
		
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But there is no discount, you are paying a premium to have him live in your home.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™d happily accept the discounts for him living there rather than make the poor guy homeless
		
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Hes not homeless its just that you pay him to live at yours and send pocket money to his home for his wife and kids.


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## Kellfire (Mar 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Menu entering a legal contract. ðŸ˜‚
		
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You didnâ€™t say menu. You said ordered. 

I really think you must be a child pretending to be an adult, such is the low level of your comprehension of complex concepts and even highlighted by your pathetic grasp of similes. Youâ€™re doing the leave campaign no favours to convince us remainers that you arenâ€™t ignorant â€œgammonsâ€.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You didnâ€™t say menu. You said ordered.

I really think you must be a child pretending to be an adult, such is the low level of your comprehension of complex concepts and even highlighted by your pathetic grasp of similes. Youâ€™re doing the leave campaign no favours to convince us remainers that you arenâ€™t ignorant â€œgammonsâ€.
		
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Try harder, thats a pretty rubbish putdown ðŸ™„
You really do have an attitude issue and I would like an intellectual debate with you but that would be unfair with you being unarmed ðŸ‘


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## Mudball (Mar 26, 2019)

The Govt formal response to the petitioners... apparently will break trust and Breakfast means Breakfast - irrespective of the fact you ordered breakfast or if it is on the menu

â€”â€”-/////â€”â€”â€”
Government responded:
This Government will not revoke Article 50. We will honour the result of the 2016 referendum and work with Parliament to deliver a deal that ensures we leave the European Union.​It remains the Governmentâ€™s firm policy not to revoke Article 50. We will honour the outcome of the 2016 referendum and work to deliver an exit which benefits everyone, whether they voted to Leave or to Remain.
Revoking Article 50, and thereby remaining in the European Union, would undermine both our democracy and the trust that millions of voters have placed in Government.
The Government acknowledges the considerable number of people who have signed this petition. However, close to three quarters of the electorate took part in the 2016 referendum, trusting that the result would be respected. This Government wrote to every household prior to the referendum, promising that the outcome of the referendum would be implemented. 17.4 million people then voted to leave the European Union, providing the biggest democratic mandate for any course of action ever directed at UK Government. 
British people cast their votes once again in the 2017 General Election where over 80% of those who voted, voted for parties, including the Opposition, who committed in their manifestos to upholding the result of the referendum. 
This Government stands by this commitment. 
Revoking Article 50 would break the promises made by Government to the British people, disrespect the clear instruction from a democratic vote, and in turn, reduce confidence in our democracy. As the Prime Minister has said, failing to deliver Brexit would cause â€œpotentially irreparable damage to public trustâ€, and it is imperative that people can trust their Government to respect their votes and deliver the best outcome for them.​
Department for Exiting the European Union.​


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## Fade and Die (Mar 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The Govt formal response to the petitioners... apparently will break trust and Breakfast means Breakfast - irrespective of the fact you ordered breakfast or if it is on the menu

â€”â€”-/////â€”â€”â€”
Government responded:
This Government will not revoke Article 50. We will honour the result of the 2016 referendum and work with Parliament to deliver a deal that ensures we leave the European Union.​It remains the Governmentâ€™s firm policy not to revoke Article 50. We will honour the outcome of the 2016 referendum and work to deliver an exit which benefits everyone, whether they voted to Leave or to Remain.​Revoking Article 50, and thereby remaining in the European Union, would undermine both our democracy and the trust that millions of voters have placed in Government.​The Government acknowledges the considerable number of people who have signed this petition. However, close to three quarters of the electorate took part in the 2016 referendum, trusting that the result would be respected. This Government wrote to every household prior to the referendum, promising that the outcome of the referendum would be implemented. 17.4 million people then voted to leave the European Union, providing the biggest democratic mandate for any course of action ever directed at UK Government.​British people cast their votes once again in the 2017 General Election where over 80% of those who voted, voted for parties, including the Opposition, who committed in their manifestos to upholding the result of the referendum.​This Government stands by this commitment.​Revoking Article 50 would break the promises made by Government to the British people, disrespect the clear instruction from a democratic vote, and in turn, reduce confidence in our democracy. As the Prime Minister has said, failing to deliver Brexit would cause â€œpotentially irreparable damage to public trustâ€, and it is imperative that people can trust their Government to respect their votes and deliver the best outcome for them.​
Department for Exiting the European Union.​

Click to expand...

Can one of the democracy deniers please explain what they donâ€™t agree with in this statement?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The Govt formal response to the petitioners... apparently will break trust and Breakfast means Breakfast - irrespective of the fact you ordered breakfast or if it is on the menu

â€”â€”-/////â€”â€”â€”
Government responded:
This Government will not revoke Article 50. We will honour the result of the 2016 referendum and work with Parliament to deliver a deal that ensures we leave the European Union.​It remains the Governmentâ€™s firm policy not to revoke Article 50. We will honour the outcome of the 2016 referendum and work to deliver an exit which benefits everyone, whether they voted to Leave or to Remain.​Revoking Article 50, and thereby remaining in the European Union, would undermine both our democracy and the trust that millions of voters have placed in Government.​The Government acknowledges the considerable number of people who have signed this petition. However, close to three quarters of the electorate took part in the 2016 referendum, trusting that the result would be respected. This Government wrote to every household prior to the referendum, promising that the outcome of the referendum would be implemented. 17.4 million people then voted to leave the European Union, providing the biggest democratic mandate for any course of action ever directed at UK Government.​British people cast their votes once again in the 2017 General Election where over 80% of those who voted, voted for parties, including the Opposition, who committed in their manifestos to upholding the result of the referendum.​This Government stands by this commitment.​Revoking Article 50 would break the promises made by Government to the British people, disrespect the clear instruction from a democratic vote, and in turn, reduce confidence in our democracy. As the Prime Minister has said, failing to deliver Brexit would cause â€œpotentially irreparable damage to public trustâ€, and it is imperative that people can trust their Government to respect their votes and deliver the best outcome for them.​
Department for Exiting the European Union.​

Click to expand...

A good response.


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## Mudball (Mar 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Can one of the democracy deniers please explain what they donâ€™t agree with in this statement?
		
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Donâ€™t disagree... apparently it was responded by a group of 11 cross party MPs. Can I ask why May does not get those 11 to work together to deliver Breakfast rather than pandering to the Tory far right agenda.  Is she trying to prove she is part of the Eton brigade ?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Hes not homeless its just that you pay him to live at yours and send pocket money to his home for his wife and kids.
		
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Who am I to deny someone a better quality of life... 

Not everyone is selfish ðŸ‘Œ


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 27, 2019)

I see the ERG/EDL/UKIP group are now crawling back under a May's stone.
Perhaps they have finally realised that after the revolution they would be the first to go.


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## Old Skier (Mar 27, 2019)

Well, latest statement from those that run the EU once again showed their lack of understanding or the difference about being in the EU or being European.  Also seems that the EU are only interested in supporting the minority that signed the petition and went on a stroll rather than the majority vote that took part in the referendum.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 27, 2019)

Rees-Moggs quote

_'Theresa May's deal is a bad one, it does not deliver on the promises made in the Tory Party manifesto and its negotiation was a failure of statesmanship... [but] all the other potential outcomes are worse." '_

At what stage do you stop to think, is it actually worth doing it then?  Completely get that 17.4 million voted for some form of Brexit, but what does it say about us if the deal we will get is universally loathed by most people but the other options are even worse? Is this not just us accepting some absolute crap because the alternative is extra absolute crap.  Understand that this happens a lot in politics and there's no such thing as a perfect deal, but it's the biggest decision this country has made in decades and it's hardly a footing for a great new future if we are accepting some garbage withdrawal agreement.  The employers and employees representatives all agree a no deal would be a disaster and if we screw up that then we are royally screwed, blue passports or not. So must admit I am coming round to the idea of postponing it for a year or so and trying again with a new lot running the negotiations and ideally new people at the top of both parties.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



*Well, latest statement from those that run the EU *once again showed their lack of understanding or the difference about being in the EU or being European.  Also seems that the EU are only interested in supporting the minority that signed the petition and went on a stroll rather than the majority vote that took part in the referendum.
		
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Could you put links or quotes please so we can understand what you are commenting on?


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## Old Skier (Mar 27, 2019)

I'm happy for remainers to partition to join the EU as long as they are willing to wait for a 10 year period before taking any action.

That gives some time to see who is right about leaving the EU as nobody can give an answer from either side and it will also give us time to see if the EU does push more to a Federal Europe or indeed is around at all.


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## Old Skier (Mar 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Could you put links or quotes please so we can understand what you are commenting on?
		
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Just been live on the Breakfast news, I'll check later if they put it up on the BBC site.  Was a statement read out by Tusk.


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## Crazyface (Mar 27, 2019)

Mogg is an utter scum bag and should be removed as a Tory MP immediately. 

Question...has our law been changed to extended the leave date?


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## Old Skier (Mar 27, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Mogg is an utter scum bag and should be removed as a Tory MP immediately.

Question...has our law been changed to extended the leave date?
		
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His constituents quite like him.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 27, 2019)

One area I do hope we follow the EU on.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-47704345


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## Old Skier (Mar 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			One area I do hope we follow the EU on.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-47704345

Click to expand...

Up to individual countries to decide so it could be a bigger cluster muck than it is now.


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## USER1999 (Mar 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Rees-Moggs quote

_'Theresa May's deal is a bad one, it does not deliver on the promises made in the Tory Party manifesto and its negotiation was a failure of statesmanship... [but] all the other potential outcomes are worse." '_

At what stage do you stop to think, is it actually worth doing it then?  Completely get that 17.4 million voted for some form of Brexit, but what does it say about us if the deal we will get is universally loathed by most people but the other options are even worse? Is this not just us accepting some absolute crap because the alternative is extra absolute crap.  Understand that this happens a lot in politics and there's no such thing as a perfect deal, but it's the biggest decision this country has made in decades and it's hardly a footing for a great new future if we are accepting some garbage withdrawal agreement.  The employers and employees representatives all agree a no deal would be a disaster and if we screw up that then we are royally screwed, blue passports or not. So must admit I am coming round to the idea of postponing it for a year or so and trying again with a new lot running the negotiations and ideally new people at the top of both parties.
		
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One of the potential worse outcomes is remain?


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## jp5 (Mar 27, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110635861841006594


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## DRW (Mar 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Just been live on the Breakfast news, I'll check later if they put it up on the BBC site.  Was a statement read out by Tusk.
		
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Is it this :-

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/european-council/president/


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			One area I do hope we follow the EU on.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-47704345

Click to expand...

Agree with that, but not this  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47715415


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## spongebob59 (Mar 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Could you put links or quotes please so we can understand what you are commenting on?
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110818745474314240


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## Slime (Mar 27, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You didnâ€™t say menu. You said ordered.

*I really think you must be a child pretending to be an adult, *such is the low level of your comprehension of complex concepts and even highlighted by your pathetic grasp of similes. Youâ€™re doing the leave campaign no favours to convince us remainers that you arenâ€™t ignorant â€œgammonsâ€.
		
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Oh, the irony.


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## Hobbit (Mar 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Agree with that, but not this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47715415

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Whether in or out of the EU the UK car manufacturing industry has agreed to manufacture to EU standards.


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## Crazyface (Mar 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Agree with that, but not this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47715415

Click to expand...

"The European Commission - in charge of drafting EU legislation - made the proposal last year, after a public consultation which showed 84% of respondents wanting to scrap the biannual clock changes. There were 4.6 million replies in that consultation, 70% of which were from Germans. "

Scary thing is, 70% of respondents were GERMANS. And so it begins.........


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Whether in or out of the EU the UK car manufacturing industry has agreed to manufacture to EU standards.
		
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Absolutely, although the UK car mfr industry is largely made up of overseas owned mfrs so it is a mixture of EU govts and global mfrs that have come to this decision. The UK could also block this if they wish but they don't seem willing to. I find it bizarre that this could get through.


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## Crazyface (Mar 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Agree with that, but not this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47715415

Click to expand...

Yeah, that will be fun, flicking the v's at motorists stuck doing 70 on the motorway as I flash past in my 15 year old Mazda doing 90. LOL LOL LOL!!!!! (Joke. will I have to put this everytime?)


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## Crazyface (Mar 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Absolutely, although the UK car mfr industry is largely made up of overseas owned mfrs so it is a mixture of EU govts and global mfrs that have come to this decision. The UK could also block this if they wish but they don't seem willing to. I find it bizarre that this could get through.
		
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Safety wise it's a good idea. but travel wise....OMG NO. What when your car's system fails as well. Stuck doing 30mph on the motorway. OMG.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 27, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			"The European Commission - in charge of drafting EU legislation - made the proposal last year, after a public consultation which showed 84% of respondents wanting to scrap the biannual clock changes. There were 4.6 million replies in that consultation, 70% of which were from Germans. "

Scary thing is, 70% of respondents were GERMANS. And so it begins.........
		
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I was one of the 84%. I bonded with our German friends over beer, pork and clocks , maybe a little lederhosen as well


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## Hobbit (Mar 27, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			"The European Commission - in charge of drafting EU legislation - made the proposal last year, after a public consultation which showed 84% of respondents wanting to scrap the biannual clock changes. There were 4.6 million replies in that consultation, 70% of which were from Germans. "

Scary thing is, 70% of respondents were GERMANS. And so it begins.........
		
Click to expand...

What has Germans got to do with it?

I wonder how many UK citizens have signed up to the EU's website for public consultations? I receive an email/consultation about every couple of months. I also receive the results of the consultations and surveys conducted by the EU. In some cases the questions and the results aren't favourable to the EU but they still ask the questions and still post the results.

Maybe some country's citizens are better in tune with the EU than those in the UK.

How many public consultations does the UK government conduct?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Agree with that, but not this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47715415

Click to expand...

Eh! Surely something that can save lives can only be a good thing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 27, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Safety wise it's a good idea. but travel wise....OMG NO. What when your car's system fails as well. Stuck doing 30mph on the motorway. OMG.
		
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I've got doubts about the safety aspect. Quite often you need to floor it to get out of a bad situation. Not do 100mph but 5-10mph over the limit quickly can stop a crash.

From a practical point of view, driving on the single carriageway A1 and A69 very regularly there are times when the only way to safely overtake a car doing 45-50mph in a 60 zone is to go past at 65-70mph. Keeping to 60 would not get you past in time safely. If these limits come in there will either be more crashes as the manouvre doesn't complete or huge snaking traffic queues with severe road rage.

I can see a big spike in car sales before this date as people try to avoid getting cars with limiters on.


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## USER1999 (Mar 27, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Safety wise it's a good idea. but travel wise....OMG NO. What when your car's system fails as well. Stuck doing 30mph on the motorway. OMG.
		
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But there will be the facility to turn it off. So most who would not speed anyway carry on, and thise who drive like loonies will turn it off. It will achieve nothing.
Automatic collision avoidance breaking, yes, I can see the point, snd you won't be able to turn this off.


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## Dando (Mar 27, 2019)

I'm sat watching Sky news who are interviewing Michael Fabricant and cant stop staring at his "hair." I'm sure I just heard it meow


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## Hobbit (Mar 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've got doubts about the safety aspect. Quite often you need to floor it to get out of a bad situation. Not do 100mph but 5-10mph over the limit quickly can stop a crash.

From a practical point of view, driving on the single carriageway A1 and A69 very regularly there are times when the only way to safely overtake a car doing 45-50mph in a 60 zone is to go past at 65-70mph. Keeping to 60 would not get you past in time safely. If these limits come in there will either be more crashes as the manouvre doesn't complete or huge snaking traffic queues with severe road rage.

I can see a big spike in car sales before this date as people try to avoid getting cars with limiters on.
		
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When I did my advanced motorcycling course with the Police I got a radio message and in the debriefing saying you should speed to overtake things like tractors and lorries.


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## Crazyface (Mar 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*What has Germans got to do with it?*

I wonder how many UK citizens have signed up to the EU's website for public consultations? I receive an email/consultation about every couple of months. I also receive the results of the consultations and surveys conducted by the EU. In some cases the questions and the results aren't favourable to the EU but they still ask the questions and still post the results.

Maybe some country's citizens are better in tune with the EU than those in the UK.

How many public consultations does the UK government conduct?
		
Click to expand...

70% of those responding were Germans, that's what. 

+ how do you sign up for these EU consultation? .......not that it'll matter, hopefully, soon.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 27, 2019)

Have they said how it will actually work? Presumably there has to be a signal from the road to the car to let the car know what the speed limit is? Is that done by GPS or do the roads all need upgrading to be Smart?


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## Hobbit (Mar 27, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			70% of those responding were Germans, that's what.

+ how do you sign up for these EU consultation? .......not that it'll matter, hopefully, soon.
		
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And your point? Is there one or are you being xenophobic?


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## Crazyface (Mar 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've got doubts about the safety aspect.* Quite often you need to floor it to get out of a bad situation.* Not do 100mph but 5-10mph over the limit quickly can stop a crash.

From a practical point of view, driving on the single carriageway A1 and A69 very regularly there are times when the only way to safely overtake a car doing 45-50mph in a 60 zone is to go past at 65-70mph. Keeping to 60 would not get you past in time safely. If these limits come in there will either be more crashes as the manouvre doesn't complete or huge snaking traffic queues with severe road rage.

I can see a big spike in car sales before this date as people try to avoid getting cars with limiters on.
		
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Agreed, but when in a built up area the car will enforce the speed limit, so making it safer...in theory.


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## USER1999 (Mar 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Have they said how it will actually work? Presumably there has to be a signal from the road to the car to let the car know what the speed limit is? Is that done by GPS or do the roads all need upgrading to be Smart?
		
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My car already 'reads' road signs, and can display the last one seen on the dash. That said, gps would be more than adequate.


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## Crazyface (Mar 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And your point? Is there one or are you being xenophobic?
		
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Just finding it odd that 70% etc etc. Where were the other countries respondents? That is if the other countries got a say in this? Just pointing out what was pointed out in the report. Is this something we need to be aware of. Mind you if they voted for the daylight to be in the evening, crack on!


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## Crazyface (Mar 27, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			My car already 'reads' road signs, and can display the last one seen on the dash. That said, gps would be more than adequate.
		
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And link this to the accelerator pedal. job done.


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## Crazyface (Mar 27, 2019)

murphthemog said:



*But there will be the facility to turn it off*. So most who would not speed anyway carry on, and thise who drive like loonies will turn it off. It will achieve nothing.
Automatic collision avoidance breaking, yes, I can see the point, snd you won't be able to turn this off.
		
Click to expand...

So what's the point?


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Have they said how it will actually work? Presumably there has to be a signal from the road to the car to let the car know what the speed limit is? Is that done by GPS or do the roads all need upgrading to be Smart?
		
Click to expand...

(Thread ban off as it's f all to do with Brexit)

Did you actually read the article?
There's an explanation of how it will work. Temp overrides are allowable just by pressing the accelerator. This is designed for exactly that situation.
GPS will recognise the road you're on and a camera in the car can read road signs.. Simple..

Also, I'm more than a bit interested in certain individuals apparent distrust of Germans.. If anyone wants to discuss it with me then I'll happily PM you my address and you can explain it in person 

(Thread ban back on again as it's much funnier just reading it.)


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## Hobbit (Mar 27, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Just finding it odd that 70% etc etc. Where were the other countries respondents? That is if the other countries got a say in this? Just pointing out what was pointed out in the report. Is this something we need to be aware of. Mind you if they voted for the daylight to be in the evening, crack on!
		
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You're coming across a little paranoid. You're suggesting something without going and looking for answers.

If you want the info on EU public consultations go to their website and sign up. You will also find the results of public consultations and surveys going back years. Its all out there, you've just got to have an interest in it.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			(Thread ban off as it's f all to do with Brexit)

Did you actually read the article?
There's an explanation of how it will work. Temp overrides are allowable just by pressing the accelerator. This is designed for exactly that situation.
GPS will recognise the road you're on and a camera in the car can read road signs.. Simple..

Also, I'm more than a bit interested in certain individuals apparent distrust of Germans.. If anyone wants to discuss it with me then I'll happily PM you my address and you can explain it in person 

(Thread ban back on again as it's much funnier just reading it.)
		
Click to expand...

Bombed our chipshop ðŸ˜‰


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

Sod it.. There's simply too much fun to be had on this thread...

I just can't help but think that Rees-Mogg is getting absolutely desperate to avoid even a short extension to Art 50.. So desperate in fact that he's happy to become a "Vassal State" just to avoid it.. I genuinely wonder just what it is that is frightening him that much.. Just what could possibly be happening next week?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sod it.. There's simply too much fun to be had on this thread...

I just can't help but think that Rees-Mogg is getting absolutely desperate to avoid even a short extension to Art 50.. So desperate in fact that he's happy to become a "Vassal State" just to avoid it.. I genuinely wonder just what it is that is frightening him that much.. Just what could possibly be happening next week? 

Click to expand...

Welcome back mate, breaking strain of a Kit-Kat.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Did you actually read the article?
There's an explanation of how it will work. Temp overrides are allowable just by pressing the accelerator. This is designed for exactly that situation.
GPS will recognise the road you're on and a camera in the car can read road signs.. Simple..
		
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Heard it on the breakfast news this morning, skimmed the article at work, but no, had not read it in full. No need to now when you have explained it well in far fewer words . Ultimately it is a pre cursor to autonomous cars then, should they ever happen.

Could you do a general precee on Brexit each day so that I don't have to read internet news sites?


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Welcome back mate, breaking strain of a Kit-Kat. 

Click to expand...

I know.. I lasted longer than I thought though.. It's just been so funny reading the posts over the last few weeks.. 
Some really good points made by both sides. Drdel is someone who's views I've been very interested in.


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Heard it on the breakfast news this morning, skimmed the article at work, but no, had not read it in full. No need to now when you have explained it well in far fewer words . Ultimately it is a pre cursor to autonomous cars then, should they ever happen.

Could you do a general precee on Brexit each day so that I don't have to read internet news sites?
		
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No worries...

It's sh!t. We've borrocksed it right up. We're a laughing stock of pretty much the entire World (except America as they have their own problems). We've already damaged our reputation so much that whether we leave or not is almost irrelevant. Some people still hate the Germans just because they've accepted and integrated being European. The ERG is imploding quicker that Marc Francois' brain when confronted with a Child's Trivial Pursuit question. Rees-Mogg has finally shown his true colours. 

I'll just copy and paste this tomorrow as well.


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## Mudball (Mar 27, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			"The European Commission - in charge of drafting EU legislation - made the proposal last year, after a public consultation which showed 84% of respondents wanting to scrap the biannual clock changes. There were 4.6 million replies in that consultation, 70% of which were from Germans. "

Scary thing is, 70% of respondents were GERMANS. *And so it begins........*.
		
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Not really.. it is down to who decided to turn up on the day of the consultation...  Looks like the Germans did and now they want it implemneted..  Scotland and NI feel the same way with how Eng & Wales voted.  Equally some of the kids (who did not bother to turn up) now feel about the other generations who did.. 

... So is the nature of any public consultation / referendum..   As a popular term at the start was..  'Suck it, you lost... '


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## Hobbit (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No worries...

It's sh!t. We've borrocksed it right up. We're a laughing stock of pretty much the entire World (except America as they have their own problems). We've already damaged our reputation so much that whether we leave or not is almost irrelevant. Some people still hate the Germans just because they've accepted and integrated being European. The ERG is imploding quicker that Marc Francois' brain when confronted with a Child's Trivial Pursuit question. Rees-Mogg has finally shown his true colours.

I'll just copy and paste this tomorrow as well.
		
Click to expand...

No copying or pasting! You'll have the copy and paste police chasing you!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I know.. I lasted longer than I thought though.. It's just been so funny reading the posts over the last few weeks..
Some really good points made by both sides. Drdel is someone who's views I've been very interested in. 

Click to expand...

Far easier to say youâ€™re out than to stick to it! Been there, done that.

Found the last week very surprising on both sides to be honest.
I voted out, like to think I did it for genuine reasons after doing some research and personal feelings etc.
But what surprises me the most is the belief by others (Golf Club and Pub) who voted out that some how on March 30th weâ€™d be different or suddenly a lot of our â€œissues/problemsâ€ would suddenly disappear, when you chat to them and explain the transition period or possible short term pain weâ€™d likely experience until we get to the place, I or others, would like to be they look at you as if youâ€™re trying to trick them. Simply deluded in what they thought was going to happen overnight.


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## Hobbit (Mar 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Far easier to say youâ€™re out than to stick to it! Been there, done that.

Found the last week very surprising on both sides to be honest.
I voted out, like to think I did it for genuine reasons after doing some research and personal feelings etc.
But what surprises me the most is the belief by others (Golf Club and Pub) who voted out that some how on March 30th weâ€™d be different or suddenly a lot of our â€œissues/problemsâ€ would suddenly disappear, when you chat to them and explain the transition period or possible short term pain weâ€™d likely experience until we get to the place, I or others, would like to be they look at you as if youâ€™re trying to trick them. Simply deluded in what they thought was going to happen overnight.
		
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To be honest Paul, I think there's some not so bright people on both sides of the argument. I had an avid, vocal Remainer ask me yesterday, when discussing the government's authority, who is Gina Miller?!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			To be honest Paul, I think there's some not so bright people on both sides of the argument. I had an avid, vocal Remainer ask me yesterday, when discussing the government's authority, who is Gina Miller?!
		
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No doubt mate, that was just conversations over the last few days, as soon as they started â€œIâ€™m fuming they are delaying us leavingâ€ I ask them why, most popular answer was â€œbecauseâ€ and no other words.


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Far easier to say youâ€™re out than to stick to it! Been there, done that.

Found the last week very surprising on both sides to be honest.
I voted out, like to think I did it for genuine reasons after doing some research and personal feelings etc.
But what surprises me the most is the belief by others (Golf Club and Pub) who voted out that some how on March 30th weâ€™d be different or suddenly a lot of our â€œissues/problemsâ€ would suddenly disappear, when you chat to them and explain the transition period or possible short term pain weâ€™d likely experience until we get to the place, I or others, would like to be they look at you as if youâ€™re trying to trick them. Simply deluded in what they thought was going to happen overnight.
		
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I've been fairly open about the fact I voted Remain. I said at the time that I was 60/40 on the decision and could see the economic argument for both sides. What swayed me was the Social Cohesion aspect. I much prefer the idea of a United Europe. A political and social powerhouse. My Parents voted Leave at the time but are now staunch Remainers due to the effect that this is having on my Sister's family. She has a multi-million pound business in the UK but lives in Southern Spain with her Husband and Family. They face the possibility of having to leave the life they love and return to the UK just to keep the Business running. They actually flew back to London last weekend to join the Anti-Brexit march.

My only wish now is that whatever happens, there is a full independant inquiry into the whole process. I want any Politician who is shown to have profited from this mess to be treated as a traitor. I don't care what side they're on, or who's rosette they wear. I want any Leading Business figure who has actively lied, cheated and manipulated the vote to be sent down for a very long time..


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I've been fairly open about the fact I voted Remain. I said at the time that I was 60/40 on the decision and could see the economic argument for both sides. What swayed me was the Social Cohesion aspect. I much prefer the idea of a United Europe. A political and social powerhouse. My Parents voted Leave at the time but are now staunch Remainers due to the effect that this is having on my Sister's family. She has a multi-million pound business in the UK but lives in Southern Spain with her Husband and Family. They face the possibility of having to leave the life they love and return to the UK just to keep the Business running. They actually flew back to London last weekend to join the Anti-Brexit march.

My only wish now is that whatever happens, *there is a full independant inquiry into the whole process. *I want any Politician who is shown to have profited from this mess to be treated as a traitor. I don't care what side they're on, or who's rosette they wear. I want any Leading Business figure who has actively lied, cheated and manipulated the vote to be sent down for a very long time..
		
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Christ on a bike, the process itself is taking long enough, by the time an independent inquiry has finished we'll all be old and senile and have forgotten about it anyway.


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## Kellfire (Mar 27, 2019)

Everyoneâ€™s making moves now. JRM is now backing the deal, Corbyn is coming off the fence to say heâ€™ll whip his lot to back a second referendum potentially losing the shadow cabinet in the process. All very exciting.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 27, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110210645134360576
Nicola Sturgeon is nearly twice as popular as May and more than twice as popular than Jeremy Corbyn.
Both May and Corbyn trail Cable.


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## Kellfire (Mar 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1110210645134360576
Nicola Sturgeon is nearly twice as popular as May and more than twice as popular than Jeremy Corbyn.
Both May and Corbyn trail Cable.

Click to expand...

"among their own voters"

Non event.


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## drdel (Mar 27, 2019)

Donald Tusk has demonstrated the EU's unique way with democracy and arithmetic.

He suggests we recognise the 5million signatures and the 1 million marching to Remain but by inference, ignore the 17million voters for Leaving.

Obviously he went to the D Abbott, School for Political Maths. 

No wonder the EU budget is out of control and Bloomberg reports accuse the EU Finance Minsters and the ECB of having no idea.


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## jp5 (Mar 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			Donald Tusk has demonstrated the EU's unique way with democracy and arithmetic.

He suggests we recognise the 5million signatures and the 1 million marching to Remain but by inference, ignore the 17million voters for Leaving.
		
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That's yer mistake there... you've inferred wrong.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 27, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			"among their own voters"

Non event.
		
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Read a bit further, not the headline.
Seemingly she is very popular in England.
Remember it is a poll about leadership.


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## GB72 (Mar 27, 2019)

Listening to some figures yesterday and ntoed that about 60% of remainers dislike the May deal as do about 60% of leavers. In negotiation terms, she has got it pretty much spot on. In a deal where there are 2 polar opposites, the fairest result is one that is liked or disliked by about half of each camp. On that basis, May has pretty much found the perfect middle ground. Trouble is, when a deal like that has to be put to a vote, you are rarely going to win out as, despite it technically being fair to both sides, both sides will not see it as a victory and so will vote against.


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			Donald Tusk has demonstrated the EU's unique way with democracy and arithmetic.

He suggests we recognise the 5million signatures and the 1 million marching to Remain but by inference, ignore the 17million voters for Leaving.

Obviously he went to the D Abbott, School for Political Maths.

No wonder the EU budget is out of control and Bloomberg reports accuse the EU Finance Minsters and the ECB of having no idea.
		
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That's genuinely not how I interpreted his comments.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Christ on a bike, the process itself is taking long enough, by the time an independent inquiry has finished we'll all be old and senile and have forgotten about it anyway.
		
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Forgot What!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 27, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Everyoneâ€™s making moves now. JRM is now backing the deal, Corbyn is coming off the fence to say heâ€™ll whip his lot to back a second referendum potentially losing the shadow cabinet in the process. All very exciting.
		
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Which I suspect will mean that there is no majority in parliament for anything. Which will take us nearer to a no deal/revoking/softer brexit/GE/ (delete as appropriate)


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			Donald Tusk has demonstrated the EU's unique way with democracy and arithmetic.

*He suggests we recognise the 5million signatures and the 1 million marching to Remain but by inference, ignore the 17million voters for Leaving.*

Obviously he went to the D Abbott, School for Political Maths.

No wonder the EU budget is out of control and Bloomberg reports accuse the EU Finance Minsters and the ECB of having no idea.
		
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That's utter garbage.


















Everyone knows there were only 400,000 marching.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sod it.. There's simply too much fun to be had on this thread...

I just can't help but think that Rees-Mogg is getting absolutely desperate to avoid even a short extension to Art 50.. So desperate in fact that he's happy to become a "Vassal State" just to avoid it.. I genuinely wonder just what it is that is frightening him that much.. Just what could possibly be happening next week? 

Click to expand...

We don't need any thought through Remain comments thank you, please go back into hiding ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Which I suspect will mean that there is no majority in parliament for anything. Which will take us nearer to a no deal/revoking/softer brexit/GE/ (delete as appropriate)
		
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I think another pay rise will win the day.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2019)

Plebs know your place


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## User62651 (Mar 27, 2019)

So when the MPs have 8 Brexit 'options' in front of them (none of which are binding), at 7pm do they get to pick just one option or more than one in order of preference? 

Can't see May paying this much heed at all while her deal isn't quite dead.

Wrt JRM does seem that perhaps personal political ambition is sneaking ahead of Brexit principles, nothing unusual there, he is a politician.
Is his aim to get Boris into No.10 with him holding a top ministerial position? Must've got some major concession out of May wrt her leaving soon for his backing her deal, though he did caveat it with 'only if DUP also back the deal'. Not sure enough other ERG will follow suit though.

When do we know if the Speaker will even allow a 3rd MV?


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 27, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So when the MPs have 8 Brexit 'options' in front of them (none of which are binding), at 7pm do they get to pick just one option or more than one in order of preference?
		
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It's a simple yes/no to each of the options. MPs will indicate which of the 8 they are prepared to support and which they aren't. They can support as many of the 8 as they like and equally can reject as many as they like. Think it then goes forward to further votes (possibly on Monday) with the least supported options being removed and hopefully leading to a single outcome that has the backing of parliament.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 27, 2019)

I can't see the DUP changing their minds.
In fairness to them, like the SNP, they have been pretty consistent throughout this Tory omnishambles.
May will not get her vote through without their support.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I can't see the DUP changing their minds.
In fairness to them, like the SNP, they have been pretty consistent throughout this Tory omnishambles.
May will not get her vote through without their support.
		
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And the LibDems. Those three parties seem to be the only ones that have chosen a position and stuck to it.


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So when the MPs have 8 Brexit 'options' in front of them (none of which are binding), at 7pm do they get to pick just one option or more than one in order of preference?

Can't see May paying this much heed at all while her deal isn't quite dead.

Wrt JRM does seem that perhaps personal political ambition is sneaking ahead of Brexit principles, nothing unusual there, he is a politician.
Is his aim to get Boris into No.10 with him holding a top ministerial position? Must've got some major concession out of May wrt her leaving soon for his backing her deal, though he did caveat it with 'only if DUP also back the deal'. Not sure enough other ERG will follow suit though.

When do we know if the Speaker will even allow a 3rd MV?
		
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I have a suspicion the JRM is doing everything he can to avoid an extension past Friday. Agree the May Deal this week with the caveat that we leave on Friday night. (Not sure if this is still possible, just thinking on my feet). I've no doubt that whatever Deal eventually gets signed, the ERG will try to break it once we're out.


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## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			How many public consultations does the UK government conduct?
		
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After 'the EU Referendum', I think that number will shrink!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			When do we know if the Speaker will even allow a 3rd MV?
		
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He's sorted that one.


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## drdel (Mar 27, 2019)

So the idea is to find out how MPs are  thinking. Tories get to be individuals but the Labour MPs must toe the party line!


Indicative votes - I think not: playing party politics - I think so. This is what's got us into this debacle!


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## drdel (Mar 27, 2019)

It  might be interesting if somebody could put the 8 options up for a vote on the forum?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			So the idea is to find out how MPs are  thinking. Tories get to be individuals but the Labour MPs must toe the party line!
		
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Because, of course, the Tory party have toed the party line up to now.

Looks like May is leaving sooner than later.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			So the idea is to find out how MPs are  thinking. Tories get to be individuals but the Labour MPs must toe the party line!


Indicative votes - I think not: playing party politics - I think so. This is what's got us into this debacle!
		
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How on earth can these indicative votes find a way that represents MPs preference if they are whipped to vote in  a certain way. Its just extending the party politics rather than finding a meaningful outcome.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 27, 2019)

Torys given a free vote with cabinet abstaining.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I have a suspicion the JRM is doing everything he can to avoid an extension past Friday. Agree the May Deal this week with the caveat that we leave on Friday night. (Not sure if this is still possible, just thinking on my feet). I've no doubt that whatever Deal eventually gets signed, the ERG will try to break it once we're out.
		
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Pretty sure we can't leave on Friday night if a deal is agreed as there is not enough tie in Parliament to do what is needed. Possibly.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			It  might be interesting if somebody could put the 8 options up for a vote on the forum?
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47725529

So The PM has said she will quit if the deal goes through and now people like Boris Johnson will back the deal ?!? How big a bunch of hypocrites are these people

This is what he said yesterday


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## Kellfire (Mar 27, 2019)

To quote my brother...

â€œHer deal will pass. Bojob will renege on it. Hard brexit. Scottish independence. United Ireland. Kingdom of England & Wales. NHS privatisation complete. The UK falls out of top 10 richest nations.â€


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47725529

So The PM has said she will quit if the deal goes through and now people like Boris Johnson will back the deal ?!? How big a bunch of hypocrites are these people

This is what he said yesterday


View attachment 26945

Click to expand...

As we are currently fed the line that people should have a second vote as many have changed their minds since the referendum and democracy means you are allowed to change your mind then what is he or JRM doing that is different.  One could also suggest they are doing it in the best interest of the country rather than putting self interest first, which is what most of the wasters in parliament are doing.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47725529

So The PM has said she will quit if the deal goes through and now people like Boris Johnson will back the deal ?!? How big a bunch of hypocrites are these people

This is what he said yesterday


View attachment 26945

Click to expand...

She should be charged with something for even making the offer, it's outrageous.

If her deal was the crock of  it is supposed to be before the offer & not fit for purpose it will be the same crock of  not fit for purpose after she has gone.  Bercow should not allow a vote on it if her resignation is the only substantial difference.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			As we are currently fed the line that people should have a second vote as many have changed their minds since the referendum and democracy means you are allowed to change your mind then what is he or JRM doing that is different.  One could also suggest they are doing it in the best interest of the country rather than putting self interest first, which is what most of the wasters in parliament are doing.
		
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Not putting self interest first my backside; if they vote for it now self interest is their only reason as it gets rid of May.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			She should be charged with something for even making the offer, it's outrageous.

If her deal was the crock of  it is supposed to be before the offer & not fit for purpose it will be the same crock of  not fit for purpose after she has gone.  Bercow should not allow a vote on it if her resignation is the only substantial difference.
		
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Itâ€™s shocking - the deal was deemed not good enough , the PM tried to get the best she could and the EU were always going to make sure it favoured them 

They decided the deal wasnâ€™t good enough - so now May has said she will resign if it goes through and now that deal is good enough for people like Johnson and that JRM bloke ?!

What has suddenly made the deal good enough for them - simply the fact that TM going allows them to enhance their own career - the change in heart is purely down to their own ambitions and doesnâ€™t once think of whatâ€™s good for the people of the UK

As each day goes by the MPâ€™s level of self interest increases - bring back the Queen imo


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			As we are currently fed the line that people should have a second vote as many have changed their minds since the referendum and democracy means you are allowed to change your mind then what is he or JRM doing that is different.  One could also suggest they are doing it in the best interest of the country rather than putting self interest first, which is what most of the wasters in parliament are doing.
		
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If it Corbyn and Labour politicians were acting this way youâ€™d be going scandalous!
She and them have caused this mess and now to even consider suggesting they are doing it in the best interest of the Country is embarrassing.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			She should be charged with something for even making the offer, it's outrageous.

If her deal was the crock of  it is supposed to be before the offer & not fit for purpose it will be the same crock of  not fit for purpose after she has gone.  Bercow should not allow a vote on it if her resignation is the only substantial difference.
		
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I believe she is offering to go so others can carry out the negotiations on the future arrangements. I agree her deal is rubbish but if it does by some chance go through then i would prefer a new negotiating team, they can't do a worse job.  Its all probably hypothetical anyway as Burcow sounds like he will block it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			As we are currently fed the line that people should have a second vote as many have changed their minds since the referendum and democracy means you are allowed to change your mind then what is he or JRM doing that is different.  One could also suggest they are doing it in the best interest of the country rather than putting self interest first, which is what most of the wasters in parliament are doing.
		
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Seriously ? You really think they are suddenly changing their minds is because of putting the best interest of the country ?! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

They are only doing it because TM has said she will retire.


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## chrisd (Mar 27, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not putting self interest first my backside; if they vote for it now self interest is their only reason as it gets rid of May.
		
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Spot on BIM, but in essence no different from Corbyn who wants a GE because TM'S failure is the only opportunity that bunch of chancers have of being elected.

Hardly any of them are interested in Brexit/Remain, ahead of their own political ambitions- we should sack the lot!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If it Corbyn and Labour politicians were acting this way youâ€™d be going scandalous!
She and them have caused this mess and now to even consider suggesting they are doing it in the best interest of the Country is embarrassing.
		
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She caused this mess, they just wanted us to leave.  I am only pointing out the parallels regarding people changing their minds, surely if its ok for the electorate then its ok for them.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 27, 2019)

What is the collective noun for corrupt, back stabbing, self centred overpaid bureaucrats? MP!!!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seriously ? You really think they are suddenly changing their minds is because of putting the best interest of the country ?! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

They are only doing it because TM has said she will retire.
		
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No, I'm not, try reading my post before replying to it.
I pointed out the hypocracy the way remainers seem to think its ok for the electorate to change their minds as this is democratic but its not when these guys do it.   I make no explanation to their reasons. ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No, I'm not, try reading my post before replying to it.
I pointed out the hypocracy the way remainers seem to think its ok for the electorate to change their minds as this is democratic but its not when these guys do it.   I make no explanation to their reasons. ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„
		
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So, is it ok or isn't it?


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## chrisd (Mar 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If it Corbyn and Labour politicians were acting this way youâ€™d be going scandalous!
She and them have caused this mess and now to even consider suggesting they are doing it in the best interest of the Country is embarrassing.
		
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Corbyn and Co are behaving scandalously, the whole process for them is simply an attempt to seize power as they stand no chance otherwise. Corbyn has no Brexit policy that delivers on the referendum and they are an embarrassment to the Labour tradition.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No, I'm not, try reading my post before replying to it.
I pointed out the hypocracy the way remainers seem to think its ok for the electorate to change their minds as this is democratic but its not when these guys do it.   I make no explanation to their reasons. ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...


Seriously ?! You really think itâ€™s hypocritical for people to point out that Boris Johnson and Co are only backing a bad deal to further their own career - can you explain what has changed since Johnsonâ€™s statement yesterday.

Many people have changed their minds over a two year period for acceptable reasons whether thatâ€™s going from leave to remain or vice versa

But this is two snakes flipping at the drop of a hat. Even though you did say â€œone could suggest they are doing it for the best for the country â€œ ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

I suspect 99.99 % can just see it for what it is

Then there is you who is using it to score points.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 27, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			What is the collective noun for corrupt, back stabbing, self centred overpaid bureaucrats? MP!!!
		
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I believe itâ€™s a â€œParliamentâ€ of shysters.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			So, is it ok or isn't it?
		
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Surely that's their decision.  Do I think its OK that you want us to remain, of course I do as that's your right to choose as you wish. I have my preferences that i would hope you would respect and although we can debate our reasons for our decisions we shouldnt suggest we have no right to make them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Corbyn and Co are behaving scandalously, the whole process for them is simply an attempt to seize power as they stand no chance otherwise. Corbyn has no Brexit policy that delivers on the referendum and they are an embarrassment to the Labour tradition.
		
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In your opinion, I voted leave and put my trust in the Government, that Government is the Tory party backed by the DUP, Labour and everyone other party has had absolutely no say in the deal, they like many others think sheâ€™s negotiated a bad deal.
The alternatives Labour and others have put forward have been rejected by TM, what options are left?
How would you expect any Party in opposition to behave if they have constantly been ignored.
Her plan is bad, why are we even discussing Labour.
Look at tonight, TM promises to resign, Tories back her deal, pay the DUP to back the deal, all the Labour and other Parties behaviour becomes irrelevant.
The deflection on to Labour and other parties is no more than smoke and mirrors to hide the rubbish TM has negotiated.


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely that's their decision.  Do I think its OK that you want us to remain, of course I do as that's your right to choose as you wish. I have my preferences that i would hope you would respect and although we can debate our reasons for our decisions we shouldnt suggest we have no right to make them.
		
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I don't disagree, but all I've heard for weeks is that requesting a 2nd referendum because people may have changed their minds is undemocratic. There have been threats of violence against people. 
Now, arch brexiteers start changing their minds (for whatever reasons) and it becomes totally understandable and just part of the process. I'd be remiss if I didn't point out the hypocrisy of the situation.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seriously ?! You really think itâ€™s hypocritical for people to point out that Boris Johnson and Co are only backing a bad deal to further their own career - can you explain what has changed since Johnsonâ€™s statement yesterday.

*Many people have changed their minds over a two year period* for acceptable reasons whether thatâ€™s going from leave to remain or vice versa

But this is two snakes flipping at the drop of a hat. Even though you did say â€œone could suggest they are doing it for the best for the country â€œ ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

I suspect 99.99 % can just see it for what it is

Then there is you who is using it to score points.
		
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Not disagreeing with your point re Johnson et al being self serving chancers but the bit Iâ€™ve highlighted, is this just another one of your made up â€œfactsâ€ or do you have proof? Because I honestly donâ€™t know any leaver that has changed their mind. And I know a LOT. If anything they are  even more determined to leave.


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## chrisd (Mar 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			In your opinion, I voted leave and put my trust in the Government, that Government is the Tory party backed by the DUP, Labour and everyone other party has had absolutely no say in the deal, they like many others think sheâ€™s negotiated a bad deal.
The alternatives Labour and others have put forward have been rejected by TM, what options are left?
How would you expect any Party in opposition to behave if they have constantly been ignored.
Her plan is bad, why are we even discussing Labour.
Look at tonight, TM promises to resign, Tories back her deal, pay the DUP to back the deal, all the Labour and other Parties behaviour becomes irrelevant.
The deflection on to Labour and other parties is no more than smoke and mirrors to hide the rubbish TM has negotiated.
		
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That's nonsense Paul, the Labour Party fought a General election based on delivering the referendum result and even then they gave no detail as to their strategy. She asked for cross party talks, admittedly late on, but Corbyn didn't take part honestly. I'm not saying that the current position is Labour's fault but that they are using the issue simply to further their political aims


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seriously ?! You really think itâ€™s hypocritical for people to point out that Boris Johnson and Co are only backing a bad deal to further their own career - can you explain what has changed since Johnsonâ€™s statement yesterday.

Many people have changed their minds over a two year period for acceptable reasons whether thatâ€™s going from leave to remain or vice versa

But this is two snakes flipping at the drop of a hat. Even though you did say â€œone could suggest they are doing it for the best for the country â€œ ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

I suspect 99.99 % can just see it for what it is

Then there is you who is using it to score points.
		
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Once again you are either posting without trying to understand the point made or you are purposely trying to point score.
 I am not standing their corner, they are quite capable to do that themselves.  I am suggesting people like yourself are hypocritical and lacking balance.  You extol the fact that democracy allows people to change their minds then pour scorn on someone doing it.  I believe their motive is to prevent Brexit being stopped by taking what they see as the only way out.  Regarding their morals, I am not interested either way, other than lacking  confidence in the whole bunch of them.

You are entitled to your rather strong views on them, its nothing to me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			That's nonsense Paul, the Labour Party fought a General election based on delivering the referendum result and even then they gave no detail as to their strategy. She asked for cross party talks, admittedly late on, but Corbyn didn't take part honestly. I'm not saying that the current position is Labour's fault but that they are using the issue simply to further their political aims
		
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And theyâ€™ve put forward a plan to carryout Brexit, again it would also be bad imo, just like TMâ€™s.
*What do you honestly expect Labour to do?*
They could promise the moon and stars and theyâ€™d still not actually have to carry it out, every party in opposition behaves this way.


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Not disagreeing with your point re Johnson et al being self serving chancers but the bit Iâ€™ve highlighted, is this just another one of your made up â€œfactsâ€ or do you have proof? Because I honestly donâ€™t know any leaver that has changed their mind. And I know a LOT. If anything they are  even more determined to leave.
		
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Maybe they're just frightened to tell you... ðŸ˜‰


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 27, 2019)

Let's go for a hard brexit and be done with it.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 27, 2019)

DUP still say no.
That general election she called


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Not disagreeing with your point re Johnson et al being self serving chancers but the bit Iâ€™ve highlighted, is this just another one of your made up â€œfactsâ€ or do you have proof? Because I honestly donâ€™t know any leaver that has changed their mind. And I know a LOT. If anything they are  even more determined to leave.
		
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I know people who have changed their minds - both ways , there have been plenty of articles posted on various outlets of people who have changed their minds both ways and for varying reasons. So yep I believe people have changed their minds over the whole process. If there was another referendum then I believe Remain would win this time but just an opinion



SocketRocket said:



			Once again you are either posting without trying to understand the point made or you are purposely trying to point score.
I am not standing their corner, they are quite capable to do that themselves.  I am suggesting people like yourself are hypocritical and lacking balance.  You extol the fact that democracy allows people to change their minds then pour scorn on someone doing it.  *I believe their motive is to prevent Brexit being stopped by taking what they see as the only way out. * Regarding their morals, I am not interested either way, other than lacking  confidence in the whole bunch of them.

You are entitled to your rather strong views on them, its nothing to me.
		
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You really believe that ? So why only change their mind when TM says she will quit if they vote for it and it goes through ? Nothing at all to do with their own ambitions of power then ? 

Johnson believed so much in leaving the EU being the best for the country he hid away

The deal is supposed to be worse than actually being in the EU - so why vote for it then if it doesnâ€™t achieve what they want - everyone apart from you knows why , because they see it as a chance to grab the hot seat


----------



## chrisd (Mar 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And theyâ€™ve put forward a plan to carryout Brexit, again it would also be bad imo, just like TMâ€™s.
*What do you honestly expect Labour to do?*
They could promise the moon and stars and theyâ€™d still not actually have to carry it out, every party in opposition behaves this way.
		
Click to expand...

I would have hoped that they would help get us out in a way that delivered the country's wish and, as a result, hold the high ground  but  typical Corbyn  - well, you know the rest ðŸ˜£


----------



## Stuart_C (Mar 27, 2019)

Multi millionaire Grees Mogg has already made millions on the back of Brexit, he's standing  to lose more millions if Brexit doesn't happen, thats why he's suddenly changed his mind. All about himself.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I would have hoped that they would help get us out in a way that delivered the country's wish and, as a result, hold the high ground  but  typical Corbyn  - well, you know the rest ðŸ˜£
		
Click to expand...

Help a bad deal? Seriously?

Youâ€™ve already admitted she left it late to involve other parties, yet you expect Labour to behave and do the right thing.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I don't disagree, but all I've heard for weeks is that requesting a 2nd referendum because people may have changed their minds is undemocratic. There have been threats of violence against people.
Now, arch brexiteers start changing their minds (for whatever reasons) and it becomes totally understandable and just part of the process. I'd be remiss if I didn't point out the hypocrisy of the situation.
		
Click to expand...

People can change their minds but we have to use context if we wish to consider its relevance.

Regarding the referendum, its over now and someone changing their mind after is not a reason to change the outcome, referenda and general elections are a snap shot in time to reflect opinion, i cant think of a better way.    People changing their minds before voting is another matter and one i assume we would both accept.

My criticism is where people are saying this is OK in some situations but not in others.  I have suggested why some politicians may have done this recently and what their motives may be although I am not in their confidence so could only make a guess or take their word for it.  Thats not the point i am making though.

Regarding threats of violence or to life I have not supported this, have I?  So not sure where you're coming from with that.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I know people who have changed their minds - both ways , there have been plenty of articles posted on various outlets of people who have changed their minds both ways and for varying reasons. So yep I believe people have changed their minds over the whole process. If there was another referendum then I believe Remain would win this time but just an opinion



You really believe that ? So why only change their mind when TM says she will quit if they vote for it and it goes through ? Nothing at all to do with their own ambitions of power then ?

Johnson believed so much in leaving the EU being the best for the country he hid away

The deal is supposed to be worse than actually being in the EU - so why vote for it then if it doesnâ€™t achieve what they want - everyone apart from you knows why , because they see it as a chance to grab the hot seat
		
Click to expand...

You are obviously a little over excited about this and its blurring your comprehension.  No point in trying to explain further as you are looking for an argument but unable to keep to the subject matter.  I am not Johnsons keeper and dont wish to get entangled in a pointless squabble over his past history.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are obviously a little over excited about this and its blurring your comprehension.  No point in trying to explain further as you are looking for an argument but unable to keep to the subject matter.  I am not Johnsons keeper and dont wish to get entangled in a pointless squabble over his past history.
		
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Um the subject matter was from the post that I initially made about Johnson being a hypocrite and being only interested in his own political gain - you responded going on about him changing his mind for the good of the country ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ ( sorry thatâ€™s always going to be laughable that his does something other than whatâ€™s good for him ) yet everyone can see why he has changed his mind. It was you that had the issue yet now want to back out - you tried to score points against remainers ( your standard method ) and it seemed to have failed horribly.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 27, 2019)

Wasn't the whole point of the indicative vote supposed to be to show want MPs wanted? It seems from the result all we've found out is more things that they don't want.

*No Deal - Not supported*
For: 160
Against: 400

*Common Market 2.0 - Not supported*
For: 188
Against: 283

*EFTA and EEA - Not supported*
For: 65
Against: 377

*Customs union - Not supported*
For: 264
Against: 272

*Labourâ€™s alternative plan (K) â€“ Not supported*
For: 237
Against: 307

*Revocation to avoid no deal (L) â€“ Not supported*
For: 184
Against: 293

*Confirmatory public vote (M) â€“ Not supported*
For: 268
Against: 295

*Contingent preferential arrangements (O) â€“ Not supported*
For: 139
Against: 422


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			People can change their minds but we have to use context if we wish to consider its relevance.

Regarding the referendum, its over now and someone changing their mind after is not a reason to change the outcome, referenda and general elections are a snap shot in time to reflect opinion, i cant think of a better way.    People changing their minds before voting is another matter and one i assume we would both accept.

My criticism is where people are saying this is OK in some situations but not in others.  I have suggested why some politicians may have done this recently and what their motives may be although I am not in their confidence so could only make a guess or take their word for it.  Thats not the point i am making though.

Regarding threats of violence or to life I have not supported this, have I?  So not sure where you're coming from with that.
		
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But they're changing their minds after voting against it. Twice. Why do they get the opportunity to do that? Is it because they have more information now? Have they realised that they can't get the Utopia they promised. 
Sound familiar?


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## bluewolf (Mar 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wasn't the whole point of the indicative vote supposed to be to show want MPs wanted? It seems from the result all we've found out is more things that they don't want.

*No Deal - Not supported*
For: 160
Against: 400

*Common Market 2.0 - Not supported*
For: 188
Against: 283

*EFTA and EEA - Not supported*
For: 65
Against: 377

*Customs union - Not supported*
For: 264
Against: 272

*Labourâ€™s alternative plan (K) â€“ Not supported*
For: 237
Against: 307

*Revocation to avoid no deal (L) â€“ Not supported*
For: 184
Against: 293

*Confirmatory public vote (M) â€“ Not supported*
For: 268
Against: 295

*Contingent preferential arrangements (O) â€“ Not supported*
For: 139
Against: 422
		
Click to expand...

It was always going to be the way. Did anyone expect anything else?


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			But they're changing their minds after voting against it. Twice. Why do they get the opportunity to do that? Is it because they have more information now? Have they realised that they can't get the Utopia they promised.
Sound familiar?
		
Click to expand...

It's far worse than simply voting against it twice. Boris and Davis felt that it was such a bad deal that they both resigned over it. Now they think it's good enough to be able to back it.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wasn't the whole point of the indicative vote supposed to be to show want MPs wanted? It seems from the result all we've found out is more things that they don't want.

*No Deal - Not supported*
For: 160
Against: 400

*Common Market 2.0 - Not supported*
For: 188
Against: 283

*EFTA and EEA - Not supported*
For: 65
Against: 377

*Customs union - Not supported*
For: 264
Against: 272

*Labourâ€™s alternative plan (K) â€“ Not supported*
For: 237
Against: 307

*Revocation to avoid no deal (L) â€“ Not supported*
For: 184
Against: 293

*Confirmatory public vote (M) â€“ Not supported*
For: 268
Against: 295

*Contingent preferential arrangements (O) â€“ Not supported*
For: 139
Against: 422
		
Click to expand...

Unsurprising.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's far worse than simply voting against it twice. Boris and Davis felt that it was such a bad deal that they both resigned over it. Now they think it's good enough to be able to back it.
		
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It stinks, they should be ashamed of themselves.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			But they're changing their minds after voting against it. Twice. Why do they get the opportunity to do that? Is it because they have more information now? Have they realised that they can't get the Utopia they promised.
Sound familiar?
		
Click to expand...

They are not wearing tin foil helmets with an ariel attached and a bandwidth that allows me to listen in on their conversations with my valve radio.   They say the reason to change their minds is that TM3 is the only current way they see Brexit happening which in their opinion is better than remaining. Although, the fact they are Tory politicians could be code for 'Dont  forget the pigs head tonight'


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## harpo_72 (Mar 27, 2019)

Should act on the two closest votes... confirmatory public vote and customs union.
So exit but with customs union is what we would vote on but not sure what the other would be labours alternative plan?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Um the subject matter was from the post that I initially made about Johnson being a hypocrite and being only interested in his own political gain - you responded going on about him changing his mind for the good of the country ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ ( sorry thatâ€™s always going to be laughable that his does something other than whatâ€™s good for him ) yet everyone can see why he has changed his mind. It was you that had the issue yet now want to back out - you tried to score points against remainers ( your standard method ) and it seemed to have failed horribly.
		
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You're not that precious, I'm not backing off I'm rather not wasting any more time on you're feeble efforts to try and score points by perpetuating a pathetic putdown.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Should act on the two closest votes... confirmatory public vote and customs union.
So exit but with customs union is what we would vote on but not sure what the other would be labours alternative plan?
		
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If they cant reach a decision then its leave on WTO.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 27, 2019)

My concern is now these slimey feckers are willing to back an unbackable deal, what lengths will they go to  to get themselves into power?


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## drdel (Mar 27, 2019)

What these idiots seem to have forgotten is that most of the options are only applicable/relevant AFTER the UK has withdrawn since they relate to the future relationship which the EU will not yet negotiate. 


IMO we have got stuck in reverse.


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## drdel (Mar 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Should act on the two closest votes... confirmatory public vote and customs union.
So exit but with customs union is what we would vote on but not sure what the other would be labours alternative plan?
		
Click to expand...

Involves new negotiations.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			It stinks, they should be ashamed of themselves.
		
Click to expand...

They don't know the meaning of the word.


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## Imurg (Mar 28, 2019)

Mmm...yet they're quite capable of agreeing on giving themselves a pay rise......
Let's hope they can agree black is black and white is white otherwise they might get killed on the zebra crossing going over to College Green.


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

They've certainly proven what deals they don't want, and that leaves..... what?

Leave with no deal but declare open borders for trade with the proviso that any tariffs imposed will be reciprocated. Businesses in Europe will see that the UK is open to trade but it would be the EU commission that is blocking their ESTABLISHED trade routes. Let them fight amongst themselves.

Or open borders but impose high tariffs on the EU's biggest exports to the UK. I'm fairly sure that VW/Audi will soon shout and scream if the current shrinking industry was suddenly hit with a massive block to trade.


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## bluewolf (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			They've certainly proven what deals they don't want, and that leaves..... what?

Leave with no deal but declare open borders for trade with the proviso that any tariffs imposed will be reciprocated. Businesses in Europe will see that the UK is open to trade but it would be the EU commission that is blocking their ESTABLISHED trade routes. Let them fight amongst themselves.

Or open borders but impose high tariffs on the EU's biggest exports to the UK. I'm fairly sure that VW/Audi will soon shout and scream if the current shrinking industry was suddenly hit with a massive block to trade.
		
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I'm not sure that an aggressive stance against a Trading Bloc that has already shown itself as more than capable of out-negotiation our shower of representatives is a wise move.


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I'm not sure that an aggressive stance against a Trading Bloc that has already shown itself as more than capable of out-negotiation our shower of representatives is a wise move.
		
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Don't you think that its the bending over and being supplicant has achieved the weak position we're in at the negotiating table?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Don't you think that its the bending over and being supplicant has achieved the weak position we're in at the negotiating table?
		
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Agree 100% Brian which is why I have stated all along that we should not take 'No deal' off the table as it is our nuclear deterrent.


----------



## oxymoron (Mar 28, 2019)

I think its now time to just walk out with no deal  , put and end to all this, and show some backbone in future negotiations


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

I caught the tail end of a piece on Breakfast News earlier. A City of London investment company has embraced the Brexit concept and looked outside of the EU for business. Its grown its business significantly and has been increasing staffing numbers.........

Second piece on there now. And Coutts bank are also saying all the doom mongering is a "red herring."


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Don't you think that its the bending over and being supplicant has achieved the weak position we're in at the negotiating table?
		
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I'd argue our weak position is just about entirely down to the fact that we have not had an unified negotiating position ourselves.  The EU are just constantly asking 'What do you want'?  All we ever give them are red lines, deals that don't get passed, indicative votes that no majority goes for.

I am sure there are some MPs who think that the EU will cave in as they need us more than we need them, German car manufacturers blah blah blah. And I am sure there are a few who want a no deal to run a massive economic experiment involving ultra market forces, very low taxation, that they will economically benefit from massively if it goes well but will be completely insulated from if, and in my opinion probably when it does not. But keeping a position on the table that essentially says both sides will be considerably worse off is probably not going to work any more.  It's hardly forging a brave path in an exciting new world.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 28, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			I think its now time to just walk out with no deal  , put and end to all this, and show some backbone in future negotiations
		
Click to expand...

What is the point of having a backbone when all it does is place yourself in a dreadfully weak bargaining position.
Sounds a bit Monty Pythonish to me.
The other day we had Liam Fox talking up a 'new' trading deal with Iceland [do more folk work for the food company than live in the country?]
It was a poorer version of the one we already had within the EU but hey ho, it's new.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

I watched from 4pm with to the jaw dropping incompetence of the idiots in charge. all of whom I'll wager are educated people with a degree in something or other, but as usual, not one jot of common sense. What we will get, eventually, is a "peoples vote" becasue they can't agree and the vote will be, as has already been suggest by at least three MP's last night. 

1. Do you want to leave with this incredibly stupid deal which means the UK will be shafted for ever and ever by the EU.

2. Remain (which actually wasn't an option when we had a vote in the HOC but we've tweeked it to read REMAIN instead of a vote to decide which stupid leave deal is the best, so that we can stay in).

And that is what is going to happen. 

PS The EU said that we can ONLY have an extension if we agreed to a deal. We have not agreed to a deal so, if they are to be believed, will kick us out tomorrow. Will that happen? Will it footballs.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I caught the tail end of a piece on Breakfast News earlier. A City of London investment company has embraced the Brexit concept and looked outside of the EU for business. Its grown its business significantly and has been increasing staffing numbers.........

Second piece on there now. And Coutts bank are also saying all the doom mongering is a "red herring."
		
Click to expand...

And if all business had done this they'd be no scaremongering. It's just the lazy ones who are doing all of this.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I watched from 4pm with to the jaw dropping incompetence of the idiots in charge. all of whom I'll wager are educated people with a degree in something or other, but as usual, not one jot of common sense. What we will get, eventually, is a "peoples vote" becasue they can't agree and the vote will be, as has already been suggest by at least three MP's last night.

1. Do you want to leave with this incredibly stupid deal which means the UK will be shafted for ever and ever by the EU.

2. Remain (which actually wasn't an option when we had a vote in the HOC but we've tweeked it to read REMAIN instead of a vote to decide which stupid leave deal is the best, so that we can stay in).

And that is what is going to happen.

PS The EU said that we can ONLY have an extension if we agreed to a deal. We have not agreed to a deal so, if they are to be believed, will kick us out tomorrow. Will that happen? Will it footballs.
		
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No it wonâ€™t because they agreed to change the law

We now leave April 12th without a deal if we donâ€™t agree a deal if we do itâ€™s May 22nd 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/mps-enshrine-brexit-delay-in-uk-law/amp/


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Should act on the two closest votes... confirmatory public vote and customs union.
So exit but with customs union is what we would vote on but not sure what the other would be labours alternative plan?
		
Click to expand...

If you had been able to listen to the debate, a Customs Union would leave us in no mans land with the EU dictating how that would work and we'd get shafted. 
In fact ALL options that had us tied to the EU were BAD, which is why the MP's voted all options as no. 

Why are they going to vote again on any of the options as they voted NO to all of them. So that's is. You don't then vote for the best one that was voted no. look at TM's deal and how the votes wen't with that. People just harden their opinion. 

We must leave with no deal and just bluddy cope. Which is what the English are bluddy good at , whilst moaning about it


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			No it wonâ€™t because they agreed to change the law

We now leave April 12th without a deal if we donâ€™t agree a deal if we do itâ€™s May 22nd

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/mps-enshrine-brexit-delay-in-uk-law/amp/

Click to expand...

Ahhh, saw that put forward at about 5pm, did it get passed without a vote? Also, it's the EU that said if no deal by 29th March then NO extension. So makes our super new law mute???


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Should act on the two closest votes... confirmatory public vote and customs union.
So exit but with customs union is what we would vote on but not sure what the other would be labours alternative plan?
		
Click to expand...

The new form of democracy, lose the vote, and get it passed. Now that is funny.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The new form of democracy, lose the vote, and get it passed. Now that is funny.
		
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Anna The Witch jumped up to propose this. She's evil and the most undemocratic person in the HOC.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Ahhh, saw that put forward at about 5pm, did it get passed without a vote? Also, it's the EU that said if no deal by 29th March then NO extension. So makes our super new law mute???
		
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No it was always 12th April after that meeting because there isnâ€™t time for us to get our ducks in a row since we mucked about for 2 years


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## Slime (Mar 28, 2019)

There are too many MPs wanting too many different outcomes, therefore no scenario can/will enjoy a majority and we just can't/won't move forward.
They are truly shafting their constituents and betraying the electorate.
They even have a gun pointing at TM's head ..................... she's in a totally no win situation and was from the start.
They, (all of the MPs), have made us a global laughing stock and there seems no end to it. The EU must be pissing itsself with laughter.
Maybe it's time to stand up, give the EU the finger, show some backbone and walk away?
Maybe it's time for the EU to negotiate with us, rather than the other way round?
Something really has to change.


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## User62651 (Mar 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The new form of democracy, lose the vote, and get it passed. Now that is funny.
		
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If May can't get her deal back and approved what's the alternative with Brexit? Arlene Foster seems immovable on the terms of the May draft WA too.

Keep going on as we are? General Election? Or go for the least unpopular of the options in Commons?

Before you say 'leave now with No Deal', that came in a lowly 6th of 8 backed options and second most opposed (400 against) yesterday so clearly doesn't have the legs to progress. Seems Boris and JRM have reluctantly accepted that, even with alterior motives perhaps.


Something has to give.

BUT Seems like May's deal is back as the only item on the Brexit agenda again. I expect just somehow that will be fudged through in the end.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			No it was always 12th April after that meeting because there isnâ€™t time for us to get our ducks in a row since we mucked about for 2 years
		
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It wasn't. It was March 29th, TOMORROW. We had to go back to the EU to ask for an extension to that coz our MP's are crup. The EU said ok but only to April 12th IF we agreed to a deal (May's deal as it's the only one on the table). We didn't, last night, so the EU SHOULD say ok then you're out. But they won't, as we all know.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			If May can't get her deal back and approved what's the alternative with Brexit? Arlene Foster seems immovable on the terms of the May draft WA too.

Keep going on as we are? General Election? Or go for the least unpopular of the options in Commons?

Before you say 'leave now with No Deal', that came in a lowly 6th of 8 backed options and second most opposed (400 against) yesterday so clearly doesn't have the legs to progress. Seems Boris and JRM have reluctantly accepted that, even with alterior motives perhaps.


Something has to give.

BUT Seems like May's deal is back as the only item on the Brexit agenda again*. I expect just somehow that will be fudged through in the end*.
		
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Possible. due to the spineless Tories, who talk the talk but can't walk the walk. Liars. Mogg, Boris, and Gove and Leadsom. Two faced liars !


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 28, 2019)

Why oh why is everyone still blaming all MPâ€™s for this mess!
The only person a finger needs pointing at is TM, she put the rules down 2 years ago, fast forward to late last year when the rest of Parliament and the Country got to see what sheâ€™d achieved, what was it? A bad deal, a deal supported by very few of her own Party, weâ€™ve had resignations, threats, votes of no confidence, sugar deals for support and still we are no further forward.

Maybe MPâ€™s should be given one last vote, 2 choices, TMâ€™s deal or No deal.

Thatâ€™s it, we leave one way or another and any for any future issues we know were the blame lies.

There were 8 options last night, at least you could argue some politicians were trying to move forward, sad fact is, none of them had full backing.

She had 2 years, theyâ€™ve had 3 months, enough is enough.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

I hope your getting my tone. This is what it's like on the leave side. And it's most who feel this way. Christ even my calm, caring see's both sides, everytime, wife SHOUTING AT THE TV! And that , for me say's EVERYTHING!!!!


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Why oh why is everyone still blaming all MPâ€™s for this mess!
The only person a finger needs pointing at is TM, she put the rules down 2 years ago, fast forward to late last year when the rest of Parliament and the Country got to see what sheâ€™d achieved, what was it? A bad deal, a deal supported by very few of her own Party, weâ€™ve had resignations, threats, votes of no confidence, sugar deals for support and still we are no further forward.

Maybe MPâ€™s should be given one last vote, 2 choices, TMâ€™s deal or No deal.

Thatâ€™s it, we leave one way or another and any for any future issues we know were the blame lies.

There were 8 options last night, at least you could argue some politicians were trying to move forward, sad fact is, none of them had full backing.

She had 2 years, theyâ€™ve had 3 months, enough is enough.
		
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YUP !


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			It wasn't. It was March 29th, TOMORROW. We had to go back to the EU to ask for an extension to that coz our MP's are crup. The EU said ok but only to April 12th IF we agreed to a deal (May's deal as it's the only one on the table). We didn't, last night, so the EU SHOULD say ok then you're out. But they won't, as we all know.
		
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Keep up - the 12th was the date if no solution could be found.


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			If May can't get her deal back and approved what's the alternative with Brexit? Arlene Foster seems immovable on the terms of the May draft WA too.

Keep going on as we are? General Election? Or go for the least unpopular of the options in Commons?

Before you say 'leave now with No Deal', that came in a lowly 6th of 8 backed options and second most opposed (400 against) yesterday so clearly doesn't have the legs to progress. Seems Boris and JRM have reluctantly accepted that, even with alterior motives perhaps.


Something has to give.

BUT Seems like May's deal is back as the only item on the Brexit agenda again. I expect just somehow that will be fudged through in the end.
		
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There is no answer which is exactly what the majority of Parliament wants. Stuck with staying and a very interesting time the next time the population are asked to vote on anything.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Keep up - the 12th was the date if no solution could be found.
		
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But that's what I said...isn't it?


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## spongebob59 (Mar 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Why oh why is everyone still blaming all MPâ€™s for this mess!
The only person a finger needs pointing at is TM, she put the rules down 2 years ago, fast forward to late last year when the rest of Parliament and the Country got to see what sheâ€™d achieved, what was it? A bad deal, a deal supported by very few of her own Party, weâ€™ve had resignations, threats, votes of no confidence, sugar deals for support and still we are no further forward.

*Maybe MPâ€™s should be given one last vote, 2 choices, TMâ€™s deal or No deal.*

Thatâ€™s it, we leave one way or another and any for any future issues we know were the blame lies.

There were 8 options last night, at least you could argue some politicians were trying to move forward, sad fact is, none of them had full backing.

She had 2 years, theyâ€™ve had 3 months, enough is enough.
		
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Nice idea but who makes that call ?
If its down to toady bercow, no chance.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

*The offer:*



Option 1: If the UK parliament votes for the withdrawal agreement next week, it can delay exiting until May 22 to ratify the text.
Option 2: If it does not approve the* deal,* the EU will offer a shorter extension until April 12.
If it rejects the *deal* and takes the shorter extension, it can then decide whether to seek a much longer delay and vote in the European elections or leave on April 12 without a deal.

The wording is "deal" NOT solution. The TM "deal" as the EU have offered nothing else.


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			But that's what I said...isn't it?
		
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Not sure, trying to keep a track of some of your posts is like trying to catch a box of frogs.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



*The offer:*



Option 1: If the UK parliament votes for the withdrawal agreement next week, it can delay exiting until May 22 to ratify the text.
Option 2: If it does not approve the* deal,* the EU will offer a shorter extension until April 12.
If it rejects the *deal* and takes the shorter extension, it can then decide whether to seek a much longer delay and vote in the European elections or leave on April 12 without a deal.

The wording is "deal" NOT solution. The TM "deal" as the EU have offered nothing else.
		
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oH carp, I've just read this again. If the HOC rejects a deal it can ask for a longer deal. 

SEE they are offering every which way to stay in. It's coming boys and girls get ready for the longer extension, then a referendum and we'll be in.


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## jp5 (Mar 28, 2019)

Should have had the indicative votes 3 years ago, but better late than never.

Public vote on final deal and customs union options are viable, no deal and EEA/EFTA off the table (surprisingly).


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## oxymoron (Mar 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What is the point of having a backbone when all it does is place yourself in a dreadfully weak bargaining position.
Sounds a bit Monty Pythonish to me.
The other day we had Liam Fox talking up a 'new' trading deal with Iceland [do more folk work for the food company than live in the country?]
It was a poorer version of the one we already had within the EU but hey ho, it's new.
		
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If we had shown some backbone earlier we would not be in this situation , can you please clarify what you mean by "Monty Pythonish "?


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure, trying to keep a track of some of your posts is like trying to catch a box of frogs.
		
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Sorry just letting off steam. it's either that or cry.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

Lets have a English referendum to see if WE want to stay in the UK. now THAT would be interesting.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 28, 2019)

good read :

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/


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## User62651 (Mar 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



*There is no answer which is exactly what the majority of Parliament wants.* Stuck with staying and a very interesting time the next time the population are asked to vote on anything.
		
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If there's no answer then we're in limbo, not stuck with staying as the option to revoke article 50 and stay was soundly defeated too yesterday as was the peoples referendum option which did better but still lost. I'm not optimisitic of remaining in the EU at all now. If parliament wanted to stay they could have indicated that yesterday, they didn't. All MPs whipped to vote certain ways perhaps?

It's unbelievable really that a sitting Prime Minister's last hurrah is offering her head to try and get sufficient backing (from her own party MPs) for a government policy to get voted through. Interested to see how the Tories go once this is resolved.


On a side note I watched a little footage of the 2012 London Olympics the other night on youtube, recall the national pride of the time, despite austerity it really brought the UK together, felt great to be British that summer. Seems an age ago now. Sad.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			It wasn't. It was March 29th, TOMORROW. We had to go back to the EU to ask for an extension to that coz our MP's are crup. The EU said ok but only to April 12th IF we agreed to a deal (May's deal as it's the only one on the table). We didn't, last night, so the EU SHOULD say ok then you're out. But they won't, as we all know.
		
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No as I said after we agreed an extension 29th was off the table once we voted it through

Which was last night 

Canâ€™t leave tomorrow now


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Lets have a English referendum to see if WE want to stay in the UK. now THAT would be interesting.
		
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Is that English as in live in England or English as in born in England? And will the referendum only be open to Little Englanders or can anyone else vote?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			If there's no answer then we're in limbo, not stuck with staying as the option to revoke article 50 and stay was soundly defeated too yesterday as was the peoples referendum option which did better but still lost. I'm not optimisitic of remaining in the EU at all now. If parliament wanted to stay they could have indicated that yesterday, they didn't. All MPs whipped to vote certain ways perhaps?

It's unbelievable really that a sitting Prime Minister's last hurrah is offering her head to try and get sufficient backing (from her own party MPs) for a government policy to get voted through. Interested to see how the Tories go once this is resolved.


*On a side note I watched a little footage of the 2012 London Olympics the other night on youtube, recall the national pride of the time, despite austerity it really brought the UK together, felt great to be British that summer. Seems an age ago now. Sad.* 

Click to expand...

Totally agree.  You get people accusing remainers of not believing in the UK or doing the UK down as we don't want a hard Brexit.  But I always think that I was incredibly proud of the UK during that summer, it showed the best of the UK to the world, how we can be world beaters in many areas.  And since then we've just been sliding back into intolerance and infighting, culminating in us being a national embarrassment on many levels.  Give my Olympic Britain and the message it portrayed to the world over Brexit Britain any day of the week.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			good read :

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/

Click to expand...

Very interesting, quite an insight.


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## bluewolf (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Don't you think that its the bending over and being supplicant has achieved the weak position we're in at the negotiating table?
		
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I genuinely believe, and stated regularly at the time, that there was never going to be a Deal that would please anyone. Both sides had their own red lines and couldn't budge from them. If it was obvious to me then I can't see how it wasn't obvious to everyone really. 

Brexit should've always been sold as a Remain/No Deal decision. Those people who claimed a Deal would be easy are responsible for this entire mess. If we'd been planning for a No Deal since the start then we'd be in a far better place than we currently are. 

So, to answer you're question. No, I don't think that being supplicant was the problem. I think that being lied to by the Brexiteers and having unrealistic expectations was the problem. And that's solely a U.K. problem. Not a EU one.


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## Foxholer (Mar 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			If May can't get her deal back and approved what's the alternative with Brexit? Arlene Foster seems immovable on the terms of the May draft WA too.

Keep going on as we are? General Election? Or go for the least unpopular of the options in Commons?

Before you say 'leave now with No Deal', that came in a lowly 6th of 8 backed options and second most opposed (400 against) yesterday so clearly doesn't have the legs to progress. Seems Boris and JRM have reluctantly accepted that, even with alterior motives perhaps.


Something has to give.

BUT Seems like May's deal is back as the only item on the Brexit agenda again. I expect just somehow that will be fudged through in the end.
		
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'No Deal' will AUTOMATICALLY apply on 12 April if a deal is not agreed!


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## drdel (Mar 28, 2019)

We keep banging on and the EU keep asking about what we want.  That by definition is a future state. We either want to stay in EU or we don't. Once the out date is set then all t'other stuff about customs union etc can be on the table. Until then it's just a nut rolling exercise by MPs.


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I genuinely believe, and stated regularly at the time, that there was never going to be a Deal that would please anyone. Both sides had their own red lines and couldn't budge from them. If it was obvious to me then I can't see how it wasn't obvious to everyone really.

Brexit should've always been sold as a Remain/No Deal decision. Those people who claimed a Deal would be easy are responsible for this entire mess. If we'd been planning for a No Deal since the start then we'd be in a far better place than we currently are.

So, to answer you're question. No, I don't think that being supplicant was the problem. I think that being lied to by the Brexiteers and having unrealistic expectations was the problem. And that's solely a U.K. problem. Not a EU one.
		
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Can I agree and disagree with you?

Cameron, very clearly, sold Leave as leaving the customs union and leaving the single market. He made a big play on it during several speeches, well televised and certainly going the rounds of social media since.

I believe he defined Leave very well, and that most Leavers understood what Leave would be based on what Cameron had said. Whether they understood the consequences... I think that's a lot harder to believe because people like Osbourne clearly played the Project Fear card way too far and too loudly. And having Obama say his piece absolutely had a negative effect on the Remain campaign.

However, to look at the second part of your post, and being simplistic about it. Having a negotiating line that has continually tried to find compromises to ensure a (May) deal has seen the negotiating team bend over and take one yet receive very little in return. The EU have, to a large extent, been very firm on their founding principles - no problem with that at all. How close is the UK to May's red lines now? If you read May's deal you will see how far they've wobbled in many areas.


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue our weak position is just about entirely down to the fact that we have not had an unified negotiating position ourselves.  The EU are just constantly asking 'What do you want'?  All we ever give them are red lines, deals that don't get passed, indicative votes that no majority goes for.

I am sure there are some MPs who think that the EU will cave in as they need us more than we need them, German car manufacturers blah blah blah. And I am sure there are a few who want a no deal to run a massive economic experiment involving ultra market forces, very low taxation, that they will economically benefit from massively if it goes well but will be completely insulated from if, and in my opinion probably when it does not. But keeping a position on the table that essentially says both sides will be considerably worse off is probably not going to work any more.  It's hardly forging a brave path in an exciting new world.
		
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I can't give this summary too many likes. We have been too intransigent in our negotiating position both across the house and with the EU. There's also a good chunk of the ERG who have ideological pretensions far beyond the EU and leaving with a No Deal makes the path a lot smoother for them. A very, very dangerous experiment of which they're insulated from if it fails


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			good read :

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/

Click to expand...

Not finished yet but picked this out

"Third, Dublin had persuaded the EU as early as April 2017 to confirm that should Northern Ireland ever reunify with the Republic it would automatically become a member of the EU."

Seeing as NI voted to stay in, maybe this is what they want. Or is it they just want EVERYTHING?


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## bluewolf (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Can I agree and disagree with you?

Cameron, very clearly, sold Leave as leaving the customs union and leaving the single market. He made a big play on it during several speeches, well televised and certainly going the rounds of social media since.

I believe he defined Leave very well, and that most Leavers understood what Leave would be based on what Cameron had said. Whether they understood the consequences... I think that's a lot harder to believe because people like Osbourne clearly played the Project Fear card way too far and too loudly. And having Obama say his piece absolutely had a negative effect on the Remain campaign.

However, to look at the second part of your post, and being simplistic about it. Having a negotiating line that has continually tried to find compromises to ensure a (May) deal has seen the negotiating team bend over and take one yet receive very little in return. The EU have, to a large extent, been very firm on their founding principles - no problem with that at all. How close is the UK to May's red lines now? If you read May's deal you will see how far they've wobbled in many areas.
		
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He did, but the vast majority of talk before the referendum was that we'd negotiate a Deal. That we'd hold all the cards. That it'd be the easiest Deal in history. People believed it. They wanted to believe it. If you'd sold the line "We'll leave without a Deal", the Referendum would've probably had a very different result. 
The population was lied to. By Farage, Johnson, Gove, Davies, Hannan etc. They weee sold a great Deal that could never be negotiated. Then we packed off TM like a sacrificial lamb to fail miserably. Allowing the above chancers to step back in and blame someone else after it has inevitably all failed. 
I can lay blame on both sides, but the sh1tsh0w we're currently locked I. Has only one set of instigators. And they were all hard Leavers.


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## IanM (Mar 28, 2019)

I see the  BBC were in Strasbourg today, not Brussels....   What a joke.    Expensive joke.  

(Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) convene in Strasbourg for one week every month and in Brussels for the remainder. The monthly upheaval costs the bloc*114 million euros* ($124 million) a year, EU auditors say.3 Dec 2017   (nice for the bloke's uncle who has the lorry contract)

We voted to Leave, lets leave eh? 

This mess is too orchastrated to be buffoonery.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			'No Deal' will AUTOMATICALLY apply on 12 April if a deal is not agreed!
		
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No it won't....

Option 2: If it does not approve the* deal,* the EU will offer a shorter extension until April 12.
*If it rejects the deal and takes the shorter extension, it can then decide whether to seek a much longer delay and vote in the European elections or leave on April 12 without a deal.*

See the EU have said we can have a longer extension until we see the light / give it all up and just paying money to them and give up all our rights to do what we want. It there in balck and white (between the lines).


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

IanM said:



			I see the  BBC were in Strasbourg today, not Brussels....   What a joke.    Expensive joke. 

(Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) convene in Strasbourg for one week every month and in Brussels for the remainder. The monthly upheaval costs the bloc*114 million euros* ($124 million) a year, EU auditors say.3 Dec 2017   (nice for the bloke's uncle who has the lorry contract)

We voted to Leave, lets leave eh?

This mess is too orchastrated to be buffoonery.
		
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Wasting public money from around the EU whilst people live on streets and use food banks. Surely this cannot be right. For God's sake why can people not see this!!!!!


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Wasting public money from around the EU whilst people live on streets and use food banks. Surely this cannot be right. For God's sake why can people not see this!!!!!
		
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Definitely. We should leave ASAP causing the prices of goods and services to go up. As the rich get richer and the middle and working classes get poorer, we will surely see a reduction in the homeless and use of food banks...


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 28, 2019)

Nicola in fine form this morning on PM May.

She threatens her members by saying if they don't do as she wants she will stay.
The only PM to fall on their sword and miss.


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## GB72 (Mar 28, 2019)

Thing is, how effective yesterday was will only be found out on Monday. With so many options on the table, you would be hard pressed for one or two to get a majority. Now you pick the top 2 or 3 and see if more can get behind them, hell Ken Clarkes option only needs a swing of 4 votes and the one for a vote on no deal and if that is lost, we retract our application to leave only needs a swing of 20 or so. Interesting that the biggest defeat of the options was the one for no deal. 

I suspect that if no deal approaches then a general election will be called, which was one ground that the EU said would warrant a further extension. 

Whether you agree or disagree, Parliamnent is not going to let a no deal through in its current format. An election could change that one way or the other.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Definitely. We should leave ASAP causing the prices of goods and services to go up. As the rich get richer and the middle and working classes get poorer, we will surely see a reduction in the homeless and use of food banks...
		
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Ok. Please tell me why this would happen using actual facts.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Wasting public money from around the EU whilst people live on streets and use food banks. Surely this cannot be right. For God's sake why can people not see this!!!!!
		
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We have had more than enough control of our domestic policies for many years to tackle homelessness if it was a priority for the government.  Just having more money is not going to make it go away if you have a government whose polices directly contribute to the rise in homelessness. For God's sake why can people not see this!!!!


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

And to cap all this off, guess what my local MP voted for?

HE didn't.

*David Rutley (Macclesfield, Conservative)*

*Voting record on the following Brexit proposals:*


Did not vote No-deal: Leaving the EU on 12 April without a deal (John Baron's proposal - 160 for, 400 against)
Did not vote Common Market 2.0: Remaining in the European single market and seeking a temporary customs union with the EU (Nick Boles' proposal - 188 for, 283 against)
Did not vote EFTA and EEA: Remaining in the European single market but not forming a customs union with the EU (George Eustice's proposal - 65 for, 377 against)
Did not vote Customs union: Seeking a UK-wide customs union with the EU (Ken Clarke's proposal - 264 for, 272 against)
Did not vote Labour's alternative plan: Negotiating changes to the withdrawal agreement so that it includes protections to workers' rights, a permanent customs union, and close alignment to the single market (Jeremy Corbyn's proposal - 237 for, 307 against)
Did not vote Revoke Article 50: Cancelling Brexit if the UK gets within days of leaving the EU without a deal (Joanna Cherry's proposal - 184 for, 293 against)
Did not vote Second referendum: Holding another public vote to confirm any withdrawal agreement agreed by Parliament (Margaret Beckett's proposal - 268 for, 295 against)
Did not vote Standstill arrangement: Seeking a tariff-free trade agreement with the EU that will last for two years, during which time Britain will contribute to the EU budget (Marcus Fysh's proposal - 139 for, 422 against)


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

What a bluddy disgrace!


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Ok. Please tell me why this would happen using actual facts.
		
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Tell me how our goods or services could possibly become cheaper and more plentiful with poorer access to resources than we have now. 

Iâ€™ll save you the time - it canâ€™t. 

Do you think providers of goods and services will absorb the costs? (By the way - even if they did they would suffer and that would be a negative impact for them, so still a negative financial impact)


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## adam6177 (Mar 28, 2019)

My local MP didn't vote at all.... Not a single vote.


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## GB72 (Mar 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Tell me how our goods or services could possibly become cheaper and more plentiful with poorer access to resources than we have now.

Iâ€™ll save you the time - it canâ€™t.

Do you think providers of goods and services will absorb the costs? (By the way - even if they did they would suffer and that would be a negative impact for them, so still a negative financial impact)
		
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Some could if they are currently subject to tarrifs that we are obligated to impose through the EU which are subsequently lifted but how likely any retailer is to pass on any savings is the issue.


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2019)

My MP voted pretty much the way Iâ€™d want him to have voted. Good lad.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 28, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			My local MP didn't vote at all.... Not a single vote.
		
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RG ?


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## Foxholer (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			No it won't....

Option 2: If it does not approve the* deal,* the EU will offer a shorter extension until April 12.
*If it rejects the deal and takes the shorter extension, it can then decide whether to seek a much longer delay and vote in the European elections or leave on April 12 without a deal.*

See the EU have said we can have a longer extension until we see the light / give it all up and just paying money to them and give up all our rights to do what we want. It there in balck and white (between the lines).
		
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Agreed - sort of! But my point was that the default position is that - without further extension, agreement, change of heart etc. - No Deal WILL happen after April 12.


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Some could if they are currently subject to tarrifs that we are obligated to impose through the EU which are subsequently lifted but how likely any retailer is to pass on any savings is the issue.
		
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â€œSomeâ€ and â€œcouldâ€ but most wonâ€™t. Iâ€™m not claiming thereâ€™ll be a negative financial outcome for the populous in everything but there will be overall. By virtue of doing most of our trading with the EU, leaving them was always going to worsen our trade deals.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 28, 2019)

My MP voted to make himself unelectable after the next election. [fool]
He only got in this time due to the Tory/SLab pact.


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## GB72 (Mar 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			â€œSomeâ€ and â€œcouldâ€ but most wonâ€™t. Iâ€™m not claiming thereâ€™ll be a negative financial outcome for the populous in everything but there will be overall. By virtue of doing most of our trading with the EU, leaving them was always going to worsen our trade deals.
		
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I agree with you but thought I would chuck in the counter argument.

You could also argue that some european companies may set up in the uk to avoid any tariffs imposed. Again, very much a hypothetical argument.

I voted remain but am trying to see both sides without any hard line, equivocal statements.


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## GB72 (Mar 28, 2019)

My MP is Nick Boles so we all know where he stands. I like what he is doing but a large majority of h8s constituents are pretty fuming now


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			â€œSomeâ€ and â€œcouldâ€ but most wonâ€™t. Iâ€™m not claiming thereâ€™ll be a negative financial outcome for the populous in everything but there will be overall. By virtue of doing most of our trading with the EU, leaving them was always going to worsen our trade deals.
		
Click to expand...

We don't do most of our trading with the EU.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			We have had more than enough control of our domestic policies for many years to tackle homelessness if it was a priority for the government.  Just having more money is not going to make it go away if you have a government whose polices directly contribute to the rise in homelessness. For God's sake why can people not see this!!!!
		
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Very good! Don't know how to reply to that. You seem to have won, but, it does highlight another problem. Government. Maybe we should form our own army (Long Live The Queen) and have a civil war and remove the sitting Parliamnent and put Liz in charge. I'll bet she'd love that.


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Tell me how our goods or services could possibly become cheaper and more plentiful with poorer access to resources than we have now.

Iâ€™ll save you the time - it canâ€™t.

Do you think providers of goods and services will absorb the costs? (By the way - even if they did they would suffer and that would be a negative impact for them, so still a negative financial impact)
		
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Well maybe a quick call to Uncle Donald over there, and he'll send us a boat load of wine and oranges and fruit and veg and wheat and metal and coal and, well whatever we want. South Africa produce a lot as well. Without the EU tariffs applied it will all be cheap as chips!


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## Crazyface (Mar 28, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			My local MP didn't vote at all.... Not a single vote.
		
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Democracy eh? Init great?


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## adam6177 (Mar 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			RG ?
		
Click to expand...

Amber Rudd.... Although I guess there could be a reason behind it


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## Mudball (Mar 28, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			My local MP didn't vote at all.... Not a single vote.
		
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My MP voted on two things including to leave without a deal..   >>. Excellent work given that 56.7% his constituency voted to Remain.   What is a few votes between friends


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## robinthehood (Mar 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We don't do most of our trading with the EU.
		
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Thats the sort of half truth/lie that got us in this mess.


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We don't do most of our trading with the EU.
		
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My apologies and I will hold my hands up when I misspeak. 

I meant to and should have said they are our biggest trading partner. 

I will add that at 48.5% of our totally monetary trading, imports and exports, theyâ€™re damn close to meeting even my misspoken definition and clearly weâ€™re going to suffer with less beneficial tarrifs.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 28, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			What a bluddy disgrace!
		
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Is he in the cabinet or govt? I think they were told to abstain. Those that actually wanted to vote would have had to resign.


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2019)

Points of Order flying about again.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 28, 2019)

Voting o n withdrawal only tomorrow.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 28, 2019)

Â£ bombing as it looks the Tories have backed MP's into a no deal/May deal Brexit.


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## Slime (Mar 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Â£ bombing as it looks the Tories have backed MP's into a no deal/May deal Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Don't panic, it'll recover.


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2019)

Wishart being shown up for what the SNP really are. Worried about his travel plans more than the business that needs doing. It might be hog wash but his job along with everyone else there is to get this all sorted.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Voting o n withdrawal only tomorrow.
		
Click to expand...

Does that mean I lose or win my bet that May would get her deal passed by the 29th March if this goes through?


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Does that mean I lose or win my bet that May would get her deal passed by the 29th March if this goes through?
		
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Sounds like MPs haven't a clue why they are there tomorrow so I think you could well lose the bet on the other hand you might not.


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

***** PROJECT FEAR ALERT *****

Sorry but I've got to share this one...

I often read the Middlesbrough Evening Gazette - let's be honest, what true Boro supporter wouldn't want to know whats going on in their home town.

There's a local news section for the many towns that make up the Teesside conurbation. Redcar is the the town for a recent article that will rock Westminster - mind you, its a Labour seat.

Adultery has risen significantly in recent times. There is a suggestion in the article that Brexit is to blame...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



***** PROJECT FEAR ALERT *****

Sorry but I've got to share this one...

I often read the Middlesbrough Evening Gazette - let's be honest, what true Boro supporter wouldn't want to know whats going on in their home town.

There's a local news section for the many towns that make up the Teesside conurbation. Redcar is the the town for a recent article that will rock Westminster - mind you, its a Labour seat.

Adultery has risen significantly in recent times. There is a suggestion in the article that Brexit is to blame...

Click to expand...

I reckon itâ€™s because theyâ€™ve all got 6 fingers on the left hand and 8 toes on each foot.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Thats the sort of half truth/lie that got us in this mess.
		
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Please prove me wrong, I know you can't though as you are ignorant of the facts.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Please prove me wrong, I know you can't though as you are ignorant of the facts.
		
Click to expand...

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2019)

Could anyone explain why there was a no deal motion in the commons last night. The EU has already stated that it was Mays deal or the UK left with no deal and this had to be agreed by tomorrow. It seems that Parliament has lost respect for the electorate and the EU.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Could anyone explain why there was a no deal motion in the commons last night. The EU has already stated that it was Mays deal or the UK left with no deal and this had to be agreed by tomorrow. It seems that Parliament has lost respect for the electorate and the EU.
		
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Does anything in this process make any sense anymore?


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851

Click to expand...

Does that link not prove him right? That shows that most trade is done with countries outside of the EU. 44% of exports and 53% of imports from the EU, so 56% of exports and 47% of imports to and from outside the EU. And with a trade surplus of Â£41 billion with countries outside the EU surely increasing trade in that area where we make money is a good thing and reducing our reliance on the EU where we have a massive deficit.


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Does anything in this process make any sense anymore?
		
Click to expand...

Having just wasted an hour watching the motion about sitting tomorrow I not sure the 650 who work there have a clue what they are there for. Labour have already said they will vore against the motion even before the debate. They could have just voted this afternoon and all gone home tomorrow.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does that link not prove him right? That shows that most trade is done with countries outside of the EU. 44% of exports and 53% of imports from the EU, so 56% of exports and 47% of imports to and from outside the EU. And with a trade surplus of Â£41 billion with countries outside the EU surely increasing trade in that area where we make money is a good thing and reducing our reliance on the EU where we have a massive deficit.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s hard to define because it depends what you define as our biggest trade partner 

They equate to 44% for example and say everyone else is 20,20 10 and 6 % to keep it simple then they would trump anyone

However you could equally say that we do more buisness outside the Eu as a whole

It depends what your actually asking to start with


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851

Click to expand...

You need to understand the question before making a reply. The point was not who is the UKs biggest trading block but whether we do most of our trading with the EU.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Itâ€™s hard to define because it depends what you define as our biggest trade partner

They equate to 44% for example and say everyone else is 20,20 10 and 6 % to keep it simple then they would trump anyone

However you could equally say that we do more buisness outside the Eu as a whole

It depends what your actually asking to start with
		
Click to expand...

I'm fairly sure that the original post referred to us doing "most of our trade" with the EU and that's where the disagreement began. I totally agree with you with regards to the EU being our largest trading partner.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You need to understand the question before making a reply. The point was not who is the UKs biggest trading block but whether we do most of our trading with the EU.
		
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You are assuming I was against you.. I mearly posted a link so you could read it and people would see either way..


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm fairly sure that the original post referred to us doing "most of our trade" with the EU and that's where the disagreement began. I totally agree with you with regards to the EU being our largest trading partner.
		
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Most disagreements on this forum (myself included) are just pedants nit picking over the finer details of a post


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does that link not prove him right? That shows that most trade is done with countries outside of the EU. 44% of exports and 53% of imports from the EU, so 56% of exports and 47% of imports to and from outside the EU. And with a trade surplus of Â£41 billion with countries outside the EU surely increasing trade in that area where we make money is a good thing and reducing our reliance on the EU where we have a massive deficit.
		
Click to expand...

But if you assume an average tariff rate of 5%, its 10% for cars, that is potentially a hefty increase on someone's annual bills. Sourcing foodstuffs from outside the EU is pretty much achievable, and potentially cheaper, wow all of 2.8%, as tariffs could be removed from non-EU goods but if you have an EU manufactured car your service costs will rise by at least 10%.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Itâ€™s hard to define because it depends what you define as our biggest trade partner

They equate to 44% for example and say everyone else is 20,20 10 and 6 % to keep it simple then they would trump anyone

However you could equally say that we do more buisness outside the Eu as a whole

It depends what your actually asking to start with
		
Click to expand...

Then maybe you should read the point made by Kellfire (who now admits he was wrong) and my reply before going off half cocked on an irrelevant issue.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Then maybe you should read the point made by Kellfire (who now admits he was wrong) and my reply before going off half cocked on an irrelevant issue.
		
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Oh do put a sock in it socket ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But if you assume an average tariff rate of 5%, its 10% for cars, that is potentially a hefty increase on someone's annual bills. Sourcing foodstuffs from outside the EU is pretty much achievable, and potentially cheaper, wow all of 2.8%, as tariffs could be removed from non-EU goods but if you have an EU manufactured car your service costs will rise by at least 10%.
		
Click to expand...

You are correct. My point however was solely where most of our current trade is carried out.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Oh do put a sock in it socket ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

I will take that as admitting you were wrong. If you cant  bring yourself to admit it i will understand why ðŸ™„


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are correct. My point however was solely where most of our current trade is carried out.
		
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What is interesting, if you like that sort of thing, is how much UK trade has shifted from the EU to the rest of the world. You'd almost think businesses have been lazy right up until their back was against the wall.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I will take that as admitting you were wrong. If you cant  bring yourself to admit it i will understand why ðŸ™„
		
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Jesus man. I never said I was right!! I just posted the link so you could check it out and see if it settled the argument with someone else

You really are up your own arse


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What is interesting, if you like that sort of thing, is how much UK trade has shifted from the EU to the rest of the world. You'd almost think businesses have been lazy right up until their back was against the wall.
		
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It may be related to the growing markets outside the EU and the oppertunities they create. Britain has traditionally been good at opening up new markets.


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Jesus man. I never said I was right!! I just posted the link so you could check it out and see if it settled the argument with someone else

You really are up your own arse
		
Click to expand...

Breathe in, hold... and relax 2,3,4.

If what I've heard in the Parliamentary broadcast this afternoon is anything to go by, the forum is well blessed with intelligent, sensible people.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Jesus man. I never said I was right!! I just posted the link so you could check it out and see if it settled the argument with someone else

You really are up your own arse
		
Click to expand...

We had already settled that.
So rather than admit you were wrong you start name calling.  Bit juvenile.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Breathe in, hold... and relax 2,3,4.

If what I've heard in the Parliamentary broadcast this afternoon is anything to go by, the forum is well blessed with intelligent, sensible people.

Click to expand...

If you heard it in the parliamentary broadcast itâ€™s prob bullocks tho


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So rather than admit you were wrong you start name calling.  Bit juvenile.
		
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Re read my post from the article

My only post on this thread since lunch

So I havenâ€™t said you were wrong and I was right at all

So do shut up you complete tool ðŸ‘Œ


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2019)

Really good Brexitcast last night, great insight.  And the filmed this one so you can see them in the flesh. Including Katya. Oh my, oh Katya...


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Re read my post from the article

My only post on this thread since lunch

So I havenâ€™t said you were wrong and I was right at all

*So do shut up you complete tool ðŸ‘Œ*

Click to expand...

I rest my case.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 28, 2019)




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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2019)

I could have dreamed it but did someone post something about the EU finding a tech solution to the Irish border a couple of days ago.


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## bluewolf (Mar 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I could have dreamed it but did someone post something about the EU finding a tech solution to the Irish border a couple of days ago.
		
Click to expand...

It was mentioned that they'd explore alternative arrangements as part of their No Deal planning. Not one person has yet given a working example. I'm all ears though ðŸ‘


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



*Why oh why is everyone still blaming all MPâ€™s for this mess!*
The only person a finger needs pointing at is TM, she put the rules down 2 years ago, fast forward to late last year when the rest of Parliament and the Country got to see what sheâ€™d achieved, what was it? A bad deal, a deal supported by very few of her own Party, weâ€™ve had resignations, threats, votes of no confidence, sugar deals for support and still we are no further forward.

Maybe MPâ€™s should be given one last vote, 2 choices, TMâ€™s deal or No deal.

Thatâ€™s it, we leave one way or another and any for any future issues we know were the blame lies.

There were 8 options last night, at least you could argue some politicians were trying to move forward, sad fact is, none of them had full backing.

She had 2 years, theyâ€™ve had 3 months, enough is enough.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe for this reason Paul, assuming it is correct, I was sent it earlier today;

"EU referendum results 2016.

By votes; 17.4m Leave, 16.1m Remain.

By constituency; 406 Leave, 242 Remain.

Constituency by Party: Labour; 148 Leave, 84 Remain, Conservative; 247 Leave, 80 Remain.

By Region; 9 Leave, 3 Remain.

*By MP; 160 Leave, 486 Remain.*

Brexit isn't the problem, it's our MP's who are the problem."

If correct, why are the MP's NOT the problem?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			It was mentioned that they'd explore alternative arrangements as part of their No Deal planning. Not one person has yet given a working example. I'm all ears though ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Thought Hobbit gave an example of this some time back?


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## spongebob59 (Mar 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I could have dreamed it but did someone post something about the EU finding a tech solution to the Irish border a couple of days ago.
		
Click to expand...

Can't find any links only this :

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2019/02/why-technology-can-t-solve-irish-border-problem


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## bluewolf (Mar 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Thought Hobbit gave an example of this some time back?
		
Click to expand...

He gave a good example of how Trade could work. That's not the problem though. People cross borders too. Without a hard border then any EU national could cross into the UK without showing any ID.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			He gave a good example of how Trade could work. That's not the problem though. People cross borders too. Without a hard border then any EU national could cross into the UK without showing any ID.
		
Click to expand...

Thought it was trade that the OP was referring to, my apologies.

https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...le-50-the-phoenix.97927/page-291#post-1956409


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe for this reason Paul, assuming it is correct, I was sent it earlier today;

"EU referendum results 2016.

By votes; 17.4m Leave, 16.1m Remain.

By constituency; 406 Leave, 242 Remain.

Constituency by Party: Labour; 148 Leave, 84 Remain, Conservative; 247 Leave, 80 Remain.

By Region; 9 Leave, 3 Remain.

*By MP; 160 Leave, 486 Remain.*

Brexit isn't the problem, it's our MP's who are the problem."

If correct, why are the MP's NOT the problem?
		
Click to expand...

Because sheâ€™s accepted/been bullied/negotiated such a bad deal.
Seriously, if she was not willing to listen how else would they react, hence my line only giving them 2 choices, both leading to us leaving.

Spongebobâ€™s link earlier today was quite an eye opener.

Are those stats correct? ie we had a GE after the Referendum, is that current MPâ€™s or MPâ€™s at the time?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because sheâ€™s accepted/been bullied/negotiated such a bad deal.
Seriously, if she was not willing to listen how else would they react, hence my line only giving them 2 choices, both leading to us leaving.

Spongebobâ€™s link earlier today was quite an eye opener.

*Are those stats correct?* ie we had a GE after the Referendum, is that current MPâ€™s or MPâ€™s at the time?
		
Click to expand...

I've been sent them mate, haven't verified them hence the if correct caveat.

I understand & fully accept your point about her deal, but the MP's do not appear to have been actively helping the process hence my disdain for them.


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

And the Norway/Sweden border...

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41412561

The Beeb also did a piece on the Estonia/Russian border.

For those with concerns about smuggling. It exists on every EU border, land and sea. The "it can't be done" cries are correct, but expecting perfection at any border(and using it as a Remain excuse) is both naive and a little disingenuous.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I've been sent them mate, haven't verified them hence the if correct caveat.

I understand & fully accept your point about her deal, but the MP's do not appear to have been actively helping the process hence my disdain for them.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m not overly sympathetic at all, itâ€™s just she wonâ€™t budge an inch, look at what sheâ€™s done today for tomorrow, for all the hot air in Parliament or alternatives offered, sheâ€™s bringing the same deal for a 3rd time!


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m not overly sympathetic at all, itâ€™s just she wonâ€™t budge an inch, look at what sheâ€™s done today for tomorrow, for all the hot air in Parliament or alternatives offered, sheâ€™s bringing the same deal for a 3rd time!
		
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How; I thought Bercow had blocked this?


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## bluewolf (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And the Norway/Sweden border...

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41412561

The Beeb also did a piece on the Estonia/Russian border.

For those with concerns about smuggling. It exists on every EU border, land and sea. The "it can't be done" cries are correct, but expecting perfection at any border(and using it as an Remain excuse) is both naive and a little disingenuous.
		
Click to expand...

Forgive me, but I'm struggling to understand your point. You admit it can't be done, but then state that this is no excuse for not doing it. Doing what? It can't currently be done. I'm lost ðŸ˜‚


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## spongebob59 (Mar 28, 2019)

Of course he wants a GE.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111347764162646016


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Forgive me, but I'm struggling to understand your point. You admit it can't be done, but then state that this is no excuse for not doing it. Doing what? It can't currently be done. I'm lost ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

You're being too literal, and maybe I didn't make it clear. Perfection can't be achieved. There will always be smuggling, including people smuggling. But as per our previous discussion, managing trade is achievable. Its happening elsewhere in the EU so why not in NI/Ireland?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			How; I thought Bercow had blocked this?
		
Click to expand...

Sheâ€™s split it in 2! Tomorrow they vote on just the Withdrawal Agreement.

The other half, the Political Declaration will be voted on at a later date, depending on tomorrowâ€™s result.

DUP & Labour have already said theyâ€™ll vote against it.

And we must remember she and the EU have previously stated the 2 halves must be treated as one package.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Of course he wants a GE.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111347764162646016

Click to expand...

Call his bluff and agree the to support his Customs Union idea, then watch him squirm!


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## IanM (Mar 28, 2019)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1013324069055921&id=657015324686799

Nuts to Little Englanders. Listen to a German


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## bluewolf (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You're being too literal, and maybe I didn't make it clear. Perfection can't be achieved. There will always be smuggling, including people smuggling. But as per our previous discussion, managing trade is achievable. Its happening elsewhere in the EU so why not in NI/Ireland?
		
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree that managing trade across the border is achievable. But as we discussed, that's only half of the problem. Freedom of movement is a UK red line. If we don't have a hard border between Ireland and N. Ireland then we have an open border for people. I'm not sure how we could overcome that.


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Oh, I agree that managing trade across the border is achievable. But as we discussed, that's only half of the problem. Freedom of movement is a UK red line. If we don't have a hard border between Ireland and N. Ireland then we have an open border for people. I'm not sure how we could overcome that.
		
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The UK can't stop, or won't stop, freedom of movement of people on the Irish border because of the 1921 Common Travel Area agreement. Both the British Government and the Irish government have already acknowledged the longstanding agreement for FOM across the border. The only issue without an agreement is trade, and the UK has consistently said it wants to move to electronic monitoring.

Its the EU and Ireland that has continued to muddy the waters. Hell, Barnier himself said that it was doable late last year then rowed back on it and hasn't mentioned it since.

And a repetitive as it is, if there are electronic solutions already in use elsewhere in the EU why aren't they applicable to the Ni/Ireland border? Just what are the differences between the Norway/Sweden border, the France/Swiss border, the Estonia/Russian border, the Turkish/Bulgarian border and that of NI/Ireland?

The proposal from the UK for the NI/Ireland border is all checks are done electronically, and no check points. The EU isn't willing to accept no check points, unless the Backstop is adopted, and the GFA says no check points. So who is saying no, and is it a reasonable no?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Oh, I agree that managing trade across the border is achievable. But as we discussed, that's only half of the problem. Freedom of movement is a UK red line. If we don't have a hard border between Ireland and N. Ireland then we have an open border for people. I'm not sure how we could overcome that.
		
Click to expand...

We had an open border for people in Ireland before the EU was a twinkle in someones eye.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 28, 2019)

IanM said:



https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1013324069055921&id=657015324686799

Nuts to Little Englanders. Listen to a German
		
Click to expand...

What's it saying ?


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## IanM (Mar 28, 2019)

Sub titles....jolly handy


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## bluewolf (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The UK can't stop, or won't stop, freedom of movement of people on the Irish border because of the 1921 Common Travel Area agreement. Both the British Government and the Irish government have already acknowledged the longstanding agreement for FOM across the border. The only issue without an agreement is trade, and the UK has consistently said it wants to move to electronic monitoring.

Its the EU and Ireland that has continued to muddy the waters. Hell, Barnier himself said that it was doable late last year then rowed back on it and hasn't mentioned it since.

And a repetitive as it is, if there are electronic solutions already in use elsewhere in the EU why aren't they applicable to the Ni/Ireland border? Just what are the differences between the Norway/Sweden border, the France/Swiss border, the Estonia/Russian border, the Turkish/Bulgarian border and that of NI/Ireland?

The proposal from the UK for the NI/Ireland border is all checks are done electronically, and no check points. The EU isn't willing to accept no check points, unless the Backstop is adopted, and the GFA says no check points. So who is saying no, and is it a reasonable no?
		
Click to expand...

For Irish people. Not for anyone in Ireland. This is the first time that the Republic of Ireland will have an open border with the UK and also FOM with the EU. Anyone from an EU country can travel to Ireland, then cross the border into the UK without any sort of check.


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## bluewolf (Mar 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We had an open border for people in Ireland before the EU was a twinkle in someones eye.
		
Click to expand...

And did Ireland have FOM with the EU then?


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## spongebob59 (Mar 28, 2019)

IanM said:



			Sub titles....jolly handy
		
Click to expand...

Not if you don't do Facebook ðŸ˜‰


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## spongebob59 (Mar 28, 2019)

The Greek fella on QT should have negotiated.


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## IanM (Mar 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Not if you don't do Facebook ðŸ˜‰
		
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Sorry...assumed the link would open.  German MP stating they the German economy needs UK trade etc... you know, the stuff no federalist will talk about


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			For Irish people. Not for anyone in Ireland. This is the first time that the Republic of Ireland will have an open border with the UK and also FOM with the EU. Anyone from an EU country can travel to Ireland, then cross the border into the UK without any sort of check.
		
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I think you're looking for something new in something that's always been there, or certainly for the last 97 years. Lets just pick a date, say 1930. Someone travels from Paris to Dublin. Once in Dublin they could travel to Belfast without checks.

Whatever the state of how movement took place between Ireland and the rest of Europe was never a part, quite rightly, of UK legislation. An anomaly yes but that's what it was and that's what it will be post-Brexit. Will it be legal? Probably not.

What we don't know yet is will the UK be visa free for holidaying EU citizens? Its been suggested it will be visa free for UK citizens going to the EU, or for a nominal fee. Why wouldn't an EU citizen pay â‚¬5 to travel to the UK? Why have the expense of doing it via Dublin rather than pay â‚¬5?

Are you looking for a mountain when its just a pimple?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And did Ireland have FOM with the EU then?
		
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^^^^^^^^^^


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The Greek fella on QT should have negotiated.
		
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He didn't get on too well in his own country dealing with the EU.


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## bluewolf (Mar 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think you're looking for something new in something that's always been there, or certainly for the last 97 years. Lets just pick a date, say 1930. Someone travels from Paris to Dublin. Once in Dublin they could travel to Belfast without checks.

Whatever the state of how movement took place between Ireland and the rest of Europe was never a part, quite rightly, of UK legislation. An anomaly yes but that's what it was and that's what it will be post-Brexit. Will it be legal? Probably not.

What we don't know yet is will the UK be visa free for holidaying EU citizens? Its been suggested it will be visa free for UK citizens going to the EU, or for a nominal fee. Why wouldn't an EU citizen pay â‚¬5 to travel to the UK? Why have the expense of doing it via Dublin rather than pay â‚¬5?

Are you looking for a mountain when its just a pimple?
		
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Nope. For someone to travel from Paris to Dublin in 1930, they'd have to show a passport. Now they don't. Because they have FOM. Therefore, no hard border equals FOM into the UK. 

The Visa issue is a red herring. It's not a license to cross borders. 

Ok, a quick question. If the answer is as simple as you and SR think it is. Then why is absolutely no one talking about it? Do the ERG not read this forum?


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## bluewolf (Mar 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			^^^^^^^^^^
		
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^^


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## drdel (Mar 28, 2019)

The EU has told Ireland that border checks must take place if there is 'no deal'. Ireland has said that it would use checks at factories etc in conjunction with technology rather than a hard border.

It's strange that when the EU and Ireland wants to use electronic gateways that's Ok,  but when it was suggested by the UK in Sept 18 and again in Feb 19 it did not exist


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Nope. For someone to travel from Paris to Dublin in 1930, they'd have to show a passport. Now they don't. Because they have FOM. Therefore, no hard border equals FOM into the UK.

The Visa issue is a red herring. It's not a license to cross borders.

Ok, a quick question. If the answer is as simple as you and SR think it is. Then why is absolutely no one talking about it? Do the ERG not read this forum?
		
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No one is suggesting there is a problem, that's why they're not discussing it.  All they are concerned about is goods movement.
If someone wanted to come here from Paris they get a visitors visa, if they dont they will be an illegal immigrant and open to arrest and deportation.  As previously explained, you are looking for problems.


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2019)

Last time I looked at a holiday booking there were a vast range to strange places like Turkey, Egypt, Africa, USA and even weird places like Brazil. But heck they are not in the EU so we'll never be allowed to travel there from the UK because we may need to show our passport and have a visa!!! 

We really are becoming rather silly. 

Brexit is a BIG thing to politicians but to global businesses there are much bigger issues and thank goodness they and the global Finance sector is not so paranoid.


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## bluewolf (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No one is suggesting there is a problem, that's why they're not discussing it.  All they are concerned about is goods movement.
If someone wanted to come here from Paris they get a visitors visa, if they dont they will be an illegal immigrant and open to arrest and deportation.  As previously explained, you are looking for problems.
		
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No im not. I'm highlighting them. You're ignoring them as it suits your viewpoint. 
As for the comment about no one talking about the Irish border issue, sorry but that's laughable. The current predicament is entirely down to this. The ERG have done nothing but talk about the backstop. They've criticised it endlessly without ever suggesting an alternative. Why is that?


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## bluewolf (Mar 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			Last time I looked at a holiday booking there were a vast range to strange places like Turkey, Egypt, Africa, USA and even weird places like Brazil. But heck they are not in the EU so we'll never be allowed to travel there from the UK because we may need to show our passport and have a visa!!!

We really are becoming rather silly.

Brexit is a BIG thing to politicians but to global businesses there are much bigger issues and thank goodness they and the global Finance sector is not so paranoid.
		
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What has that first paragraph got to do with the current discussion? I've been to most of those places. Try getting out of the airport without a passport. 
Will there need to be a hard border between Ireland and N Ireland?


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Nope. For someone to travel from Paris to Dublin in 1930, they'd have to show a passport. Now they don't. Because they have FOM. Therefore, no hard border equals FOM into the UK.

The Visa issue is a red herring. It's not a license to cross borders.

Ok, a quick question. If the answer is as simple as you and SR think it is. Then why is absolutely no one talking about it? Do the ERG not read this forum?
		
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It doesnâ€™t matter how they got to Ireland 80 years ago or next year. They had FOM 80 years ago because of the CTA. It was an anomaly then and it will be in the future. The issue weâ€™re discussing was/is the crossing of the Irish border. What has getting from Paris to Dublin got to do with the onward travel across the Irish border?

Ireland always was the backdoor in the U.K.

But just because they can do it doesnâ€™t make it legal, and nor does it constitute FOM. 

Sometime soon I could be driving around Spain on a U.K. licence. Physically I can do it but it will be illegal unless I get a Spanish licence.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			^^^^^^^^^^^
		
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Thank you ðŸ˜‰


bluewolf said:



			No im not. I'm highlighting them. You're ignoring them as it suits your viewpoint.
As for the comment about no one talking about the Irish border issue, sorry but that's laughable. The current predicament is entirely down to this. The ERG have done nothing but talk about the backstop. They've criticised it endlessly without ever suggesting an alternative. Why is that?
		
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Again!  The only issue being discussed relates to how goods flow between south and north, not the movement of people.  Its nothing to do with my viewpoint, its the reality of the border concerns. Laugh away if it suits but what's the point in discussing it with that response.


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## bluewolf (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thank you ðŸ˜‰

Again!  The only issue being discussed relates to how goods flow between south and north, not the movement of people.  Its nothing to do with my viewpoint, its the reality of the border concerns. Laugh away if it suits but what's the point in discussing it with that response.
		
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Trust me, no one is laughing. It's hard to when you're head is repeatedly banging against the brick wall...
I appear to have fallen straight back in to trying to discuss with multiple people so I'll merely say,"Let's see what happens shall we". 
Still find it odd that such a simple solution appears to have evaded the thinking of everyone but a few guys on a golf forum. ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Trust me, no one is laughing. It's hard to when you're head is repeatedly banging against the brick wall...
I appear to have fallen straight back in to trying to discuss with multiple people so I'll merely say,"Let's see what happens shall we".
Still find it odd that such a simple solution appears to have evaded the thinking of everyone but a few guys on a golf forum. ðŸ˜‰
		
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I think the EU, Ireland and the UK know there is a simple solution. The UK has mooted a simple solution and the EU and Ireland have said no. Bizarrely, the solution mooted has relatively little cost to governments compared to having check points, and those costs will, in the main, fall to businesses.

One of the issues said to be a block to a hard border is there is 320 miles of border to 'manage.' The border between Norway and Sweden is supposed to be the most technologically advanced border control system in the world, including many unmanned crossings and that is 750 miles long.

There are solutions out there already being used on EU borders. Why isn't a version of those, or May's "trusted trader" option being adopted? In the last 2 weeks, with a hard Brexit on the horizon, Leo Varadkar, the Irish PM, has said these options must be explored to avoid a hard border. He's left it very late to get onboard with the idea.

Until the EU come up with why options used elsewhere in the EU won't work in Ireland I'll continue to believe they are just being downright awkward for the sake of making life difficult for the UK. They are using the Irish border issue as leverage to keep control of the UK. In effect, using the delicate political issues in Northern Ireland as a weapon against the UK.


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## bluewolf (Mar 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think the EU, Ireland and the UK know there is a simple solution. The UK has mooted a simple solution and the EU and Ireland have said no. Bizarrely, the solution mooted has relatively little cost to governments compared to having check points, and those costs will, in the main, fall to businesses.

One of the issues said to be a block to a hard border is there is 320 miles of border to 'manage.' The border between Norway and Sweden is supposed to be the most technologically advanced border control system in the world, including many unmanned crossings and that is 750 miles long.

There are solutions out there already being used on EU borders. Why isn't a version of those, or May's "trusted trader" option being adopted? In the last 2 weeks, with a hard Brexit on the horizon, Leo Varadkar, the Irish PM, has said these options must be explored to avoid a hard border. He's left it very late to get onboard with the idea.

Until the EU come up with why options used elsewhere in the EU won't work in Ireland I'll continue to believe they are just being downright awkward for the sake of making life difficult for the UK. They are using the Irish border issue as leverage to keep control of the UK. In effect, using the delicate political issues in Northern Ireland as a weapon against the UK.
		
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I respectfully suggest that you're wrong. The "simple" solutions have all been found wanting due to the highly complex nature of the Irish Border and the GFA.
The ERG's report on this very issue is taken apart in this article.... https://ukandeu.ac.uk/all-simple-so...border-fail-to-acknowledge-complex-realities/

The reason that no solution is being suggested is that none currently exist. People keep looking for the bogeyman in the room when the answer is frequently much more simple.

Also, genuine question, now that there is an extension to April 12th at least. Is it necessary for us to follow all EU laws up to this date? Or can we ignore new legislation that might only be coming into force in the next 7 days?

Ps. I probably won't be posting for the rest of today as I have an incredibly busy morning at work, followed by 18 holes at the new club, then running club tonight. Please don't think I'm ignoring anyone ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‚


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Very good! Don't know how to reply to that. You seem to have won, but, it does highlight another problem. Government. Maybe we should form our own army (Long Live The Queen) and have a civil war and remove the sitting Parliamnent and put Liz in charge. I'll bet she'd love that.
		
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I haven't won as I think we are all losing at the moment. However you have hit the nail on the head in that the problem is mostly not the EU but the politicians we elect in this country. The EU is a convenient scapegoat.


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I respectfully suggest that you're wrong. The "simple" solutions have all been found wanting due to the highly complex nature of the Irish Border and the GFA.
The ERG's report on this very issue is taken apart in this article.... https://ukandeu.ac.uk/all-simple-so...border-fail-to-acknowledge-complex-realities/

The reason that no solution is being suggested is that none currently exist. People keep looking for the bogeyman in the room when the answer is frequently much more simple.

Also, genuine question, now that there is an extension to April 12th at least. Is it necessary for us to follow all EU laws up to this date? Or can we ignore new legislation that might only be coming into force in the next 7 days?

Ps. I probably won't be posting for the rest of today as I have an incredibly busy morning at work, followed by 18 holes at the new club, then running club tonight. Please don't think I'm ignoring anyone ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

I worked in our Stockholm office for a while. I had engineers crossing the border with Norway on an almost daily basis. In the boot of their cars were service parts. It wasn't a bonded boot. All the issues surrounding VAT/taxation and customs were done by the IT system in the office. The systems already exist. Small businesses operate across that border every single day. And the big issue made of smuggling that would occur; its going on across EU 'v' non-EU borders now. Why is that raised as a reason?

Estonia currently ranks first in the world for e-taxation, including small businesses, across its border with Russia. The solutions are already out there and being used successfully.

The boogeyman is the EU.

To your question about have the EU laws changed in respect of the date. It bloody well feels like it here at present. The local police are being a right pain over driving licences, giving on the spot fines for anyone that is a resident but hasn't changed their licence to a Spanish one or are not carrying an International Driving Permit. Thankfully, fines are being reimbursed but its not fun standing for 20 mins telling the Guardia he's wrong, especially when he has a gun. Seriously though, the laws won't change till the UK is officially out, if it happens. Why change them today only to change them back in 6 months time when the UK hasn't Brexited.

Enjoy the golf!


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## bobmac (Mar 29, 2019)

Happy Brexit day.
Strange, but I don't feel any different. 
What???
What do you mean we haven't left yet?


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## spongebob59 (Mar 29, 2019)

Pretty damming


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 29, 2019)

I'm with Hobbit on the freight issue. We export regularly and when doing so out of the EU we give documents to the freight company in advance.  Most customs clearing occurs before the goods ever land so that when they do arrive they are simply processed and waved through.  I've spoken to EU road freight companies and they have no doubt this is how the system will work in Europe post Brexit. The idea that every vehicle will be stopped and checked at the border is nonsense,  there would be huge tailbacks. The same applies with Ireland.

Goods will be cleared and processed in advance, traffic will flow freely. Customs will get wind of dubious practices and do random or targeted checks, as has always happened. Some dodgy cigs and whiskey will get across but what's new there? There is a mistaken perception that businesses are constantly trying to fiddle the system or customs. It is not in the interests of legitimate business or freight companies to trick Customs & Excise. Those that do are in a small minority, very small, and they will not change whether the border is frictionless or not.

In terms of people, if someone wants to take the circuitous route of mainland Europe, Ireland, UK then at some point when leaving N. Ireland to enter Britain they will have to show ID, traditionally a passport. You have to do that now. You don't just walk on to a plane without ID.

This is resolvable if the EU want it to be.


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## Mudball (Mar 29, 2019)

So big day today..  itâ€™s end of Q1 and sales figures are down.. targets not met ... I am assuming that is all fine because tomorrow the sun is not going to come up.. 

.. if it does, then Hacker and I are going on holiday with our blue passports .. we always said Maybot will get her deal thru - simply because all the lemmings are clueless on who votes for what and when and who for ..


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## spongebob59 (Mar 29, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111539665700573184


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So big day today..  itâ€™s end of Q1 and sales figures are down.. targets not met ... I am assuming that is all fine because tomorrow the sun is not going to come up..

.. if it does, then Hacker and I are going on holiday with our blue passports .. we always said Maybot will get her deal thru - simply because all the lemmings are clueless on who votes for what and when and who for ..
		
Click to expand...

Yup, there will be enough labour MPs who vote for it, the DUP may even capitulate in the end.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Pretty damming







Click to expand...

Sums up exactly were the responsibility for this mess lies.


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## robinthehood (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Please prove me wrong, I know you can't though as you are ignorant of the facts.
		
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Prove what wrong ? It's well documented there was a lot of misinformation etc during the brexit campaign .


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## bluewolf (Mar 29, 2019)

As a slightly tongue in cheek aside.. I was thinking earlier about how opinions are formed and then enforced.

Personally, my opinions start as an instinct, an instinct based on many years of experience. I then look around to see exactly who agrees with this opinion. If I like and respect those who agree with my hard pondered opinion, then I become emboldened by its validity. I become more sure that I'm right and that those who disagree must be seeing something that I'm not. I then question my opinion. I pressure test it constantly, tweaking it as I go along.. All of this time, I'm still comparing it to the opinions of others I respect and trust..

Based on all this, I'm struggling to see how anyone that holds the same opinion as that Intelligence vacuum, Marc Francois can possibly go to bed at night without questioning everything that they've fought hard to formulate into one coherent opinion.. I'm bewildered.


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			What has that first paragraph got to do with the current discussion? I've been to most of those places. Try getting out of the airport without a passport. 
Will there need to be a hard border between Ireland and N Ireland?
		
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You obviously don't do sarcasm....


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm with Hobbit on the freight issue. We export regularly and when doing so out of the EU we give documents to the freight company in advance.  Most customs clearing occurs before the goods ever land so that when they do arrive they are simply processed and waved through.  I've spoken to EU road freight companies and they have no doubt this is how the system will work in Europe post Brexit. The idea that every vehicle will be stopped and checked at the border is nonsense,  there would be huge tailbacks. The same applies with Ireland.

Goods will be cleared and processed in advance, traffic will flow freely. Customs will get wind of dubious practices and do random or targeted checks, as has always happened. Some dodgy cigs and whiskey will get across but what's new there? There is a mistaken perception that businesses are constantly trying to fiddle the system or customs. It is not in the interests of legitimate business or freight companies to trick Customs & Excise. Those that do are in a small minority, very small, and they will not change whether the border is frictionless or not.

In terms of people, if someone wants to take the circuitous route of mainland Europe, Ireland, UK then at some point when leaving N. Ireland to enter Britain they will have to show ID, traditionally a passport. You have to do that now. You don't just walk on to a plane without ID.

This is resolvable if the EU want it to be.
		
Click to expand...

The CEO of Next agrees with you. As an exporter and importer he suggested its just adapting to changed admin if the UK exits the EU which he supports


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## Foxholer (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are correct. My point however was solely* where most of our current trade is carried out*.
		
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Which is 'none of the above'! So does that mean we don't trade?!

We may not 'do most of our trade' with the EU. But we 'do trade most' with the EU!

Isn't language great!

Oh and according to numbers I've seen (at least for 2017)...We DO (or DID) do most of our trade with the EU!! Total Trade was 1083Bn of which 615Bn was with the EU!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			The CEO of Next agrees with you. As an exporter and importer he suggested its just adapting to changed admin if the UK exits the EU which he supports
		
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Letâ€™s give the CEO of Next his full title in the interests of fairness and balance.
Simon Adam Wolfson, Baron Wolfson of Aspley Guise is a British businessman and currently chief executive of the clothing retailer Next plc and a Conservative life peer. He is the son of former Next chairman David Wolfson, Baron Wolfson of Sunningdale, also a Conservative life peer.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 29, 2019)

Absolutely disgraceful behaviour directed towards Johanna Cherry both outside and inside the HofCom.
Mobs both inside and outside.


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## Slime (Mar 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I haven't won as I think we are all losing at the moment. However you have hit the nail on the head in that *the problem is mostly not the EU but the politicians we elect in this country. *The EU is a convenient scapegoat.
		
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They are all to blame, they are all tossers of the highest order.
They are doing what ever they have to do to cause maximum chaos in order to further their own agendas.



pauldj42 said:



			Sums up exactly were the responsibility for this mess lies.
		
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No it doesn't.
It's easy to point the finger at TM because she is the current MP, but do you really think she has any control of how the other MPs behave and do you really believe the other MPs have tried to find a resolution to the Brexit problem?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			As a slightly tongue in cheek aside.. I was thinking earlier about how opinions are formed and then enforced.

Personally, my opinions start as an instinct, an instinct based on many years of experience. I then look around to see exactly who agrees with this opinion. If I like and respect those who agree with my hard pondered opinion, then I become emboldened by its validity. I become more sure that I'm right and that those who disagree must be seeing something that I'm not. I then question my opinion. I pressure test it constantly, tweaking it as I go along.. All of this time, I'm still comparing it to the opinions of others I respect and trust..

*Based on all this, I'm struggling to see how anyone that holds the same opinion as that Intelligence vacuum, Marc Francois can possibly go to bed at night without questioning everything that they've fought hard to formulate into one coherent opinion.. I'm bewildered.*



Click to expand...

I think for some people (on both sides) it becomes a bit 'cult like' where they completely lose the ability to question their beliefs and have a utterly blinkered view on things and can not accept there is any flaw or any flip side to the coin. I know it may seem like a few on here are but I'd say on here that on the whole most leavers accept that the UK government is to blame in some way for the current situation and most remainers agree that the EU is not perfect and ideally does need reforming, so there is some common ground. But some can not counter any logic if it does not 100% go against their belief that the EU is the devil or the EU is narnia. As I said, a bit cult like.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

Slime said:



			It's easy to point the finger at TM because she is the current MP, but do you really think she has any control of how the other MPs behave and do you really believe the other MPs have tried to find a resolution to the Brexit problem?
		
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Did you watch the link?
Her own Cabinet are unhappy, the only way she has left to get her deal done is for her to offer her resignation!

Were was/is the finger pointed when a different leader with the exact same personnel gets different results? (Think Man Utd)

It is documented she listened to no one and did her way for 2 years and is still not listening.

If sheâ€™d got a deal people were happy with sheâ€™d of won the first vote.


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## Mudball (Mar 29, 2019)

brutal blog from Politics.co.uk
https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation 

I am sure some will agree others may not..  <other blogs are available>


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## Slime (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Did you watch the link?
Her own Cabinet are unhappy, the only way she has left to get her deal done is for her to offer her resignation!

Were was/is the finger pointed when a different leader with the exact same personnel gets different results? (Think Man Utd)

It is documented she listened to no one and did her way for 2 years and is still not listening.

*If sheâ€™d got a deal people were happy with sheâ€™d of won the first vote.*

Click to expand...

To have got a deal that would have won her a vote was/is just not possible.
Some want to remain, some want her deal, some want a softer Brexit, some want a harder Brexit, some want a no deal Brexit and most would vote against her just out of principle and/or spite.
How could she ever win?
Exactly ................................ she couldn't.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2019)

Mudball said:



			brutal blog from Politics.co.uk
https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation 

I am sure some will agree others may not..  <other blogs are available>
		
Click to expand...

I saw this this morning and sniggered a bit. I particularity liked

_And yet here we all are, locked into their swirling psychological horror story, trapped in this dreadful room with them, our national fate dependant on what these cynical, self-interested, mendacious, emotionally incontinent, ideologically deranged buffoons happen to decide at any given moment. Not one person in this rabble believes a single thing they are saying. It is a godawful mixture of religious zeal, personal ambition and tribal lunacy. _

I'd argue he's just about hit the nail on the head.  Others opinions are available.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

Slime said:



			To have got a deal that would have won her a vote was/is just not possible.
Some want to remain, some want her deal, some want a softer Brexit, some want a harder Brexit, some want a no deal Brexit and most would vote against her just out of principle and/or spite.
How could she ever win?
Exactly ................................ she couldn't.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe by listening or talking to others before it was too late, she had no need to call a GE when she did.
How many Cabinet Ministers has she lost during her tenure etc, why did she pull the trigger on Art 50 when she did etc etc.
She is the PM, the PM of the Government is ultimately responsible for the actions of their Government(regardless of Party).


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## Foxholer (Mar 29, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Thought Hobbit gave an example of this some time back?
		
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He did. Estonia-Russia. But that example appears to have been a bit 'ambitiously described'. While there are technology based controls, it isn't exactly a 'soft' border.And, in fact, Estonia has requested funding from the EU for the 197Milliobn Euro cost of a proposed Fence!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

[


Foxholer said:



			Which is 'none of the above'! So does that mean we don't trade?!

We may not 'do most of our trade' with the EU. But we 'do trade most' with the EU!

Isn't language great!

*Oh and according to numbers I've seen (at least for 2017)...We DO (or DID) do most of our trade with the EU!! Total Trade was 1083Bn of which 615Bn was with the EU!*

Click to expand...

Dont know where you get your info from. Take a look at this link.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851
Also worth a mention we have a very big trade deficit with the EU while running a surplus with the rest of the world.


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## bluewolf (Mar 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			You obviously don't do sarcasm....
		
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Ah, sarcasm's a hard thing to comprehend on a Forum.. My apologies...


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe by listening or talking to others before it was too late, she had no need to call a GE when she did.
How many Cabinet Ministers has she lost during her tenure etc, *why did she pull the trigger on Art 50 when she did etc etc*.
She is the PM, the PM of the Government is ultimately responsible for the actions of their Government(regardless of Party).
		
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To be fair Paul that's probably the one area where she isn't solely to blame. Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 so they all share the blame for that one.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			To be fair Paul that's probably the one area where she isn't solely to blame. Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 so they all share the blame for that one.
		
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Who brought it before Parliament?
The choice of when to trigger Article 50 was the most important step of the process entirely under Britainâ€™s control.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-strategic-error-triggering-article-50-2017-10


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			To be fair Paul that's probably the one area where she isn't solely to blame. Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 so they all share the blame for that one.
		
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Thinking  back I believe she was being castigated for taking a year to activate article 50.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Who brought it before Parliament?
The choice of when to trigger Article 50 was the most important step of the process entirely under Britainâ€™s control.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-strategic-error-triggering-article-50-2017-10

Click to expand...

May brought it before parliament but it was parliament that chose to trigger it. If they didn't want to trigger it as it was the wrong time then they could/should have voted against it. They voted with a majority of 384 to trigger Article 50 (498 v 114). 

I blame Gina Miller.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sums up exactly were the responsibility for this mess lies.
		
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So why haven't Cabinet, the Tory party or MP's generally invoked a process to get rid of her?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Letâ€™s give the CEO of Next his full title in the interests of fairness and balance.
Simon Adam Wolfson, Baron Wolfson of Aspley Guise is a British businessman and currently chief executive of the clothing retailer Next plc and a Conservative life peer. He is the son of former Next chairman David Wolfson, Baron Wolfson of Sunningdale, also a Conservative life peer.
		
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I know him as Wolfie . The rest is a bit too much of a mouthful.


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## Foxholer (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			[

Dont know where you get your info from. Take a look at this link.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851
Also worth a mention we have a very big trade deficit with the EU while running a surplus with the rest of the world.
		
Click to expand...

Yep! That link was one of the sources - for the 615Bn - 274 + 341 = 615Bn.

But the Total for Whole World (see this link https://globaledge.msu.edu/countries/united-kingdom/tradestats) was 1083Bn - so EU was more than 50% - in 2017!

Do you agree?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 29, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So why haven't Cabinet, the Tory party or MP's generally invoked a process to get rid of her?
		
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Stacks of the cabinet have already resigned, the Cons EGR attempted to kick her out but lost, the Opposition tabled a vote of no confidence but all of the Cons who tried to remove her as leader bottled it and she won. 

Largely self interest from the Conservative party. They acknowledge a change of leader is likely to lead to a general election, it doesn't have to but is probably needed to unlock this mess, and too many of them know they could lose their seats after the shambles this has been. They don't want May but they do want to keep being MP's.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			May brought it before parliament but it was parliament that chose to trigger it. If they didn't want to trigger it as it was the wrong time then they could/should have voted against it. They voted with a majority of 384 to trigger Article 50 (498 v 114).

I blame Gina Miller. 

Click to expand...

Part of her promise was to call it by end of March 17 and without Gina Miller sheâ€™d of proceeded with it.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yep! That link was one of the sources - for the 615Bn - 274 + 341 = 615Bn.

But the Total for Whole World (see this link https://globaledge.msu.edu/countries/united-kingdom/tradestats) was 1083Bn - so EU was more than 50% - in 2017!

Do you agree?
		
Click to expand...

No
  I am talking about how much we sell to other countries, not how much we buy off them.  We run a trade deficit with the EU but have a surplus with the test of the world.
The discussion I was having was in respect to someone saying we sold more to the EU than anywhere else.


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## Foxholer (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Part of her promise was to call it *by* *end of March 17* and without Gina Miller sheâ€™d of proceeded with it.
		
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Article 50 was triggered on 29/3/17. Gina Miller's action simply confirmed whether the PM could simply do it (No) orm whether it required approval by Parliament (Yes).


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## robinthehood (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No
  I am talking about how much we sell to other countries, not how much we buy off them.  We run a trade deficit with the EU but have a surplus with the test of the world.
The discussion I was having was in respect to someone saying we sold more to the EU than anywhere else.
		
Click to expand...

Like I said , half truths and lies.


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## Foxholer (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No
  I am talking about how much we sell to other countries, not how much we buy off them.  We run a trade deficit with the EU but have a surplus with the test of the world.
		
Click to expand...

To quote you....Balderdash! Here's what you posted...


SocketRocket said:



			You are correct. My point however was solely where most of our current trade is carried out.
		
Click to expand...

Trade is both buying and selling, not just 'how much we buy..'!
Whether the result of that 'trade' is a deficit or surplus is irrelevant to the value of the 'trade'!

Oh and here's the 'initial exchange'...


SocketRocket said:





Kellfire said:



			â€œSomeâ€ and â€œcouldâ€ but most wonâ€™t. Iâ€™m not claiming thereâ€™ll be a negative financial outcome for the populous in everything but there will be overall. By virtue of doing most of our trading with the EU, leaving them was always going to worsen our trade deals.
		
Click to expand...

We don't do most of our trading with the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Note that the expression was 'trade', not 'how much we buy'!



robinthehood said:



			Like I said , half truths and lies.
		
Click to expand...

Seems apt!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Article 50 was triggered on 29/3/17. Gina Miller's action simply confirmed whether the PM could simply do it (No) orm whether it required approval by Parliament (Yes).
		
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Youâ€™ve lost me! TM, prior to any challenge in the court, when she became PM  had stated on numerous occassions it was her intention to trigger Art 50 by end of March 2017.


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## SatchFan (Mar 29, 2019)




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## Foxholer (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™ve lost me! TM, prior to any challenge in the court, when she became PM  had stated on numerous occassions it was her intention to trigger Art 50 by end of March 2017.
		
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It was your reference to Gina Miller that I was replying to - in your post below.. 


pauldj42 said:



			Part of her promise was to call it by end of March 17 *and without Gina Miller sheâ€™d of proceeded with it*.
		
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A50 *was* invoked before end of March 17 - even with the 'delay' caused by Gina Miller's action!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It was your reference to Gina Miller that I was replying to - in your post below..

A50 *was* invoked before end of March 17 - even with the 'delay' caused by Gina Miller's action!
		
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I know! I was responding to Colchester who brought Gina Miller into it!


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## jp5 (Mar 29, 2019)

"Dominic Raab is voting for the deal he negotiated then resigned in order to oppose"

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111610746121699329


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I know! I was responding to Colchester who brought Gina Miller into it!
		
Click to expand...

Don't blame me. I was only joking.


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2019)

We do appear to blame TM, MPs and anyone else this side of the channel. We might want to recognise that Juncker, Tusk and Barnier have not helped by constantly blatant Twitter mutterings which have been vastly slanted summaries of the actual negotiations.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Don't blame me. I was only joking. 

Click to expand...

Yes mate I know, problem occurs when 2 understand and a third tries to help.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			We do appear to blame TM, MPs and anyone else this side of the channel. We might want to recognise that Juncker, Tusk and Barnier have not helped by constantly blatant Twitter mutterings which have been vastly slanted summaries of the actual negotiations.
		
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True, but we the UK have behaved like a bunch of muppets and have presented ourselves as muppets ... well the majority have anyway ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			We do appear to blame TM, MPs and anyone else this side of the channel. We might want to recognise that Juncker, Tusk and Barnier have not helped by constantly blatant Twitter mutterings which have been vastly slanted summaries of the actual negotiations.
		
Click to expand...

I despise them even more, theyâ€™ve played us like a fiddle, Spongebobâ€™s link was an excellent read imo.
But theyâ€™ve looked after their interests and weâ€™ve failed!


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## jp5 (Mar 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			We do appear to blame TM, MPs and anyone else this side of the channel. We might want to recognise that Juncker, Tusk and Barnier have not helped by constantly blatant Twitter mutterings which have been vastly slanted summaries of the actual negotiations.
		
Click to expand...

The EU have been consistent throughout. It's not their job to deliver the promises made by Farage, Johnson et al.


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## GB72 (Mar 29, 2019)

It is quite glaring now that those who were at the forefront of brexit have now tucked themselves away again for the time being. Johnson has been, in the main part, particularly quiet. Basically try and get through this whilst saying as little as possible so as not to harm his shot at the top job when May resigns. Totally self serving. Even Farage has been relatively quiet, maybe holding back for a glorious post brexit return to UK politics once his euro gig is over.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I despise them even more, theyâ€™ve played us like a fiddle, Spongebobâ€™s link was an excellent read imo.
But theyâ€™ve looked after their interests and weâ€™ve failed!
		
Click to expand...

If the deal can not get through then I would suggest they have also failed. They needed to give a little more and if they had it would have got through. Fine to be tough and nasty, win the negotiations but they didn't bank on parliament seeing the deal for what it is. Less posturing, less punishing, more thinking about what is best for all and we could have passed this initial stage by now. Big failure from the UK team, not a success by the EU one either.


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## GB72 (Mar 29, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If the deal can not get through then I would suggest they have also failed. They needed to give a little more and if they had it would have got through. Fine to be tough and nasty, win the negotiations but they didn't bank on parliament seeing the deal for what it is. Less posturing, less punishing, more thinking about what is best for all and we could have passed this initial stage by now. Big failure from the UK team, not a success by the EU one either.
		
Click to expand...

Trouble is, their hands are slightly tied as well. Enough posturing in other EU nations about leaving that means that our leaving smoothly with a decent deal could trigger similar actions in other countries. Not sure the EU could afford another of the more affluent countries leaving, there has been talk that, even now, Germany may struggle to pay the bills withou the UK contribution


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 29, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Trouble is, their hands are slightly tied as well. Enough posturing in other EU nations about leaving that means that our leaving smoothly with a decent deal could trigger similar actions in other countries. Not sure the EU could afford another of the more affluent countries leaving, there has been talk that, even now, Germany may struggle to pay the bills withou the UK contribution
		
Click to expand...

Surely all the more reason to try and seek a deal to keep us rather than screw us over or try and drive us out then?


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## Mudball (Mar 29, 2019)

Been on calls with my continental team ... we are indeed a laughing stock...   As one of them mentioned.. 'You guys need to make your mind up'


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If the deal can not get through then I would suggest they have also failed. They needed to give a little more and if they had it would have got through. Fine to be tough and nasty, win the negotiations but they didn't bank on parliament seeing the deal for what it is. Less posturing, less punishing, more thinking about what is best for all and we could have passed this initial stage by now. Big failure from the UK team, not a success by the EU one either.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s not over yet, both sides can then be judged, one minor point, they managed to get 27 different Countries to agree the deal.


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## ger147 (Mar 29, 2019)

TM deal voted down again, 344 to 286.


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## adam6177 (Mar 29, 2019)

The EU council absolutely MUST kick us out with no deal, our elected are unable to do the job they are trusted to do.  It MUST be taken out of their hands as they are unable to fulfill the result of the referendum.

Imo.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 29, 2019)

Spot on Adam.   If Parliament cannot come to an agreement, then the only democratic option is to leave which was the will of the people.

I was staggered this week to hear that self-interested idiot Tusk saying we had to respect the "million" who marched or the "5.7 million" who signed that petition.  Only because they were on his side.  The 17.4 million who weren't therefore must be ignored.

It is this kind of selfish attitude which has wound so many people up about the EU and led to the leave vote winning in the first place.  Good riddance to the lot of them.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			To quote you....Balderdash! Here's what you posted...

Trade is both buying and selling, not just 'how much we buy..'!
Whether the result of that 'trade' is a deficit or surplus is irrelevant to the value of the 'trade'!

Oh and here's the 'initial exchange'...


Note that the expression was 'trade', not 'how much we buy'!


Seems apt!
		
Click to expand...

I was referring to our export trade and you know that. You are playing your stupid pedantic games again.  How can the '*Value* of the trade'  be greater than the rest of the world when one is a credit and the other a defecit


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## robinthehood (Mar 29, 2019)

I see a few hundred pro brexiters have descended on Westminster.  Soon to be addressed by Tommy Robinson....


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 29, 2019)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47752017

Surely now she must go and give someone else a chance to sort this mess out.


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## User62651 (Mar 29, 2019)

ger147 said:



			TM deal voted down again, 344 to 286.
		
Click to expand...

Gap's closing, by MV 7 she might just get there. I think 3 goes was all she had though.

JRM went with govt but 30 of his ERG gang didn't, wonder if he'll remain their poster boy as his surrender didn't affect the result.

May's bluff worked, PM for the forseeable? General Election coming. OH Joy


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## PieMan (Mar 29, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			The EU council absolutely MUST kick us out with no deal, our elected are unable to do the job they are trusted to do.  It MUST be taken out of their hands as they are unable to fulfill the result of the referendum.

Imo.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I am very much in the Leave camp, and with no deal if need be, the unfortunate situation is that the EU very much want us to stay - the EU Commission for our money; some of the smaller member states for being 'the voice of reason' and 'influence' in trying to ensure fairness in all the decision making.

But given the absolute shambles our MPs have presided over, our 'influence' in Brussels IF we eventually stay in will basically be all gone.

Not one MS will view us with any credibility going forward; and the Commission will just ignore all our views and opinions in their march for even greater control. Basically we'll just be an ATM!

So let's just leave, get on with forging our own way as a global, outward looking nation.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 29, 2019)

Latest, May to offer Scotland Northumberland and Cumbria for their votes.
Well she has tried everything else.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2019)

Guess that means I've lost my bet that Tmays deal would get through by today.  I think I underestimated the sheer incompetence of TMays government yet again. Oh well, I think I bet with 2 of you a crisp tenner to go to your charity of choice. I've forgot who (Was IamM one of them?) and it is probably 327 posts ago, I'll try and find it but if I did bet with you let me know and what charity you want the tenner to go to.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2019)

Found them, PaulJames87 and IamM, let em know your charities and I'll wing a tenner plus gift aid to them poste haste.


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## Dando (Mar 29, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Been on calls with my continental team ... we are indeed a laughing stock...   As one of them mentioned.. 'You guys need to make your mind up'
		
Click to expand...

we made up our mind in the referendum!


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## chrisd (Mar 29, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Whilst I am very much in the Leave camp, and with no deal if need be, the unfortunate situation is that the EU very much want us to stay - the EU Commission for our money; some of the smaller member states for being 'the voice of reason' and 'influence' in trying to ensure fairness in all the decision making.

But given the absolute shambles our MPs have presided over, our 'influence' in Brussels IF we eventually stay in will basically be all gone.

Not one MS will view us with any credibility going forward; and the Commission will just ignore all our views and opinions in their march for even greater control. Basically we'll just be an ATM!

So let's just leave, get on with forging our own way as a global, outward looking nation.
		
Click to expand...

Will you just stop ............. being sensible ðŸ‘


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 29, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Whilst I am very much in the Leave camp, and with no deal if need be, the unfortunate situation is that the EU very much want us to stay - the EU Commission for our money; some of the smaller member states for being 'the voice of reason' and 'influence' in trying to ensure fairness in all the decision making.

But given the absolute shambles our MPs have presided over, our 'influence' in Brussels IF we eventually stay in will basically be all gone.

Not one MS will view us with any credibility going forward; and the Commission will just ignore all our views and opinions in their march for even greater control. Basically we'll just be an ATM!

So let's just leave, get on with forging our own way as a global, outward looking nation.
		
Click to expand...

Well at least the elected members have achieved parity whichever way we voted; we have lost all credibility regardless of whether we leave or remain.


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## Mudball (Mar 29, 2019)

Dando said:



			we made up our mind in the referendum!
		
Click to expand...

<fixed that for you>  SOME of us made up our mind..




Hacker Khan said:



			Found them, PaulJames87 and IamM, let em know your charities and I'll wing a tenner plus gift aid to them poste haste.
		
Click to expand...

Can you put it in the DUP/NI 'cash for votes' charity fund...


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

Mudball said:



			<fixed that for you>  SOME of us made up our mind..




Can you put it in the DUP/NI 'cash for votes' charity fund...
		
Click to expand...

Didn't you make up your mind?


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## Mudball (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Didn't you make up your mind?
		
Click to expand...

can i change it?   Because as Boris and JRM showed today that they are allowed to change it..  both vote for a suicide vest and a vassel state.  I am pretty sure my mind was to not be  either of that. Was yours?


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## Dando (Mar 29, 2019)

Mudball said:



			<fixed that for you>  SOME of us made up our mind..




Can you put it in the DUP/NI 'cash for votes' charity fund...
		
Click to expand...

there is no need to fix anything for me!


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## Foxholer (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I was referring to our export trade and you know that. You are playing your stupid pedantic games again.  How can the '*Value* of the trade'  be greater than the rest of the world when one is a credit and the other a defecit
		
Click to expand...

Balderdash! Utter Twaddle! It's you who is 'playing stupid pedantic games trying to wheedle your way out of a factual blunder'!

You simply cannot admit you've been caught getting your facts wrong can you! You weren't using that Deficit vs Surplus argument earlier, even when supplying the link!

And to answer your question - that you should (and I suspect do) know the answer to anyway.... Value of Trade is 'Value of Exports + Value of Imports'! The Credit/Debit 'values' that you seem to be posting about is the '*Balance* of Trade Value'! 

I'm not interested in any further comms on this sub-topic though!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

Mudball said:



			can i change it?   Because as Boris and JRM showed today that they are allowed to change it..  both vote for a suicide vest and a vassel state.  I am pretty sure my mind was to not be  either of that. Was yours?
		
Click to expand...

I made my mind up based on what I want my country to be, I've not changed my mind on the only way I can see it being achieved.  You may be surprised that I have no problem with others having a different view or changing  their minds.  All I expect of people is they are honest with their intentions. I am sick to the back teeth of the weasel words and outright lies so many use to disguise their real intentions.  I'm also tired of having to defend my beliefs, it seems the way it goes is Remainers  trawl the Internet for any morsel to try and discredit leavers or leaving, The Leaver then has to respond with reasons to justify their decision, it then becomes s mud slinging fight that no one wins. And before anyone jumps in I am as bad as anyone in returning insults.   How on earth did a country like this become so broken.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Balderdash! Utter Twaddle! It's you who is 'playing stupid pedantic games trying to wheedle your way out of a factual blunder'!

You simply cannot admit you've been caught getting your facts wrong can you! You weren't using that Deficit vs Surplus argument earlier, even when supplying the link!

And to answer your question - that you should (and I suspect do) know the answer to anyway.... Value of Trade is 'Value of Exports + Value of Imports'! The Credit/Debit 'values' that you seem to be posting about is the '*Balance* of Trade Value'! 

I'm not interested in any further comms on this sub-topic though!
		
Click to expand...

Thank God for that. I have been expressing a view, you as normal.jump in throwing playground insults around like a silly school kid.   Make an opinion by all means but drop the pathetic name calling.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I see a few hundred pro brexiters have descended on Westminster.  Soon to be addressed by Tommy Robinson....
		
Click to expand...

The man is a stain on this Country.


----------



## Tashyboy (Mar 29, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Whilst I am very much in the Leave camp, and with no deal if need be, the unfortunate situation is that the EU very much want us to stay - the EU Commission for our money; some of the smaller member states for being 'the voice of reason' and 'influence' in trying to ensure fairness in all the decision making.

But given the absolute shambles our MPs have presided over, our 'influence' in Brussels IF we eventually stay in will basically be all gone.

Not one MS will view us with any credibility going forward; and the Commission will just ignore all our views and opinions in their march for even greater control. Basically we'll just be an ATM!

So let's just leave, get on with forging our own way as a global, outward looking nation.
		
Click to expand...

I could not agree more with you, I have said from day one No deal looked the obvious choice and I have seen nothing to change my mind. However and this is my Major concern for the future. These elected MP clowns, are the very people that wil be negotiating for us in the future, and that puts the fear of God into me. It's not nationalism, but I think it's about time people started believing in what Britain can do, what Britain is capable of doing without the shackles of being in the EU.
Think this mess of the EU/ Brexit/ Remain has not even reached half time. â˜¹ï¸


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The man is a stain on this Country.
		
Click to expand...

Trouble is he will use this seeming inability of parliament to leave the EU to forwards his political ideology now.  People rightly are angry and him and his ilk will seize on this.

Think I've said before, whilst I think the time and resources we will need to commit to untangle ourselves from 40 years of alignment with the EU is an absolute waste and should be spent elsewhere, the social fracture this is currently and will increasingly cause could be even worse for us as a nation.


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 29, 2019)

PieMan said:





adam6177 said:



			The EU council absolutely MUST kick us out with no deal, our elected are unable to do the job they are trusted to do.  It MUST be taken out of their hands as they are unable to fulfill the result of the referendum.

Imo.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I am very much in the Leave camp, and with no deal if need be, the unfortunate situation is that the EU very much want us to stay - the EU Commission for our money; some of the smaller member states for being 'the voice of reason' and 'influence' in trying to ensure fairness in all the decision making.

But given the absolute shambles our MPs have presided over, our 'influence' in Brussels IF we eventually stay in will basically be all gone.

Not one MS will view us with any credibility going forward; and the Commission will just ignore all our views and opinions in their march for even greater control. Basically we'll just be an ATM!

So let's just leave, get on with forging our own way as a global, outward looking nation.
		
Click to expand...

A cynic could easily suggest that May recognised that Parliament would act in exactly this (chaotic) way, which was why she had to be dragged 'kicking and sreaming' into 'Giving Control to Parliament'! But, while I'm certain there was a considerable element of this involved - she's not great at giving away control imo - this is precisely the great way (imo!) that UK style democracy (generally) works! Out of the chaos of 650+ disparate (occasionally d*e*sparate!) views there CAN come consensus! Of course, the system can be distorted - by whipping for example, or some more serious manipulation- and it can be long-winded, but provided there's acceptance of certain key issues, it works very well. It's when those key issues (like acceptance of the referendum result) cannot be accepted that conflict brings the, otherwise pretty smooth, process into some sort of disrepute. Of course, this tends to only happen on the, supposed, big issues!

I'm actually quite impressed with how well most folk who are in areas of responsibility, have acted in this issue! Unfortunately. that hasn't stopped some loons attempting to 'corrupt' the process!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Trouble is he will use this seeming inability of parliament to leave the EU to forwards his political ideology now.  People rightly are angry and him and his ilk will seize on this.

Think I've said before, whilst I think the time and resources we will need to commit to untangle ourselves from 40 years of alignment with the EU is an absolute waste and should be spent elsewhere, the social fracture this is currently and will increasingly cause could be even worse for us as a nation.
		
Click to expand...

Anyone who listens and falls for his crap is an utter moron imo.

Unfortunately you are correct on your second paragraph.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I could not agree more with you, I have said from day one No deal looked the obvious choice and I have seen nothing to change my mind. However and this is my Major concern for the future. These elected MP clowns, are the very people that wil be negotiating for us in the future, and that puts the fear of God into me. It's not nationalism, but *I think it's about time people started believing in what Britain can do, what Britain is capable of doing without the shackles of being in the EU.*
Think this mess of the EU/ Brexit/ Remain has not even reached half time. â˜¹ï¸
		
Click to expand...

One may argue our current government and political classes who we seem to want to give more 'power' to are shackling us far more than the EU ever will. And believing otherwise to me won't do a great deal if we are faced with Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn as a choice at the ballot box.


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## Dando (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Anyone who listens and falls for his crap is an utter moron imo.

Unfortunately you are correct on your second paragraph.
		
Click to expand...

Are you talking about Corbyn in your first paragraph


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I made my mind up based on what I want my country to be, I've not changed my mind on the only way I can see it being achieved.  You may be surprised that I have no problem with others having a different view or changing  their minds.  All I expect of people is they are honest with their intentions. I am sick to the back teeth of the weasel words and outright lies so many use to disguise their real intentions.  I'm also tired of having to defend my beliefs, it seems the way it goes is Remainers  trawl the Internet for any morsel to try and discredit leavers or leaving, The Leaver then has to respond with reasons to justify their decision, it then becomes s mud slinging fight that no one wins. And before anyone jumps in I am as bad as anyone in returning insults.   How on earth did a country like this become so broken.
		
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Because there's too many Leavers!

Sorry SR, I'm just being facetious for a bit of fun.


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## Foxholer (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thank God for that. I have been expressing a view, you as normal.jump in throwing playground insults around like a silly school kid.   Make an opinion by all means but drop the pathetic name calling.
		
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Balderdash!


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## IanM (Mar 29, 2019)

We used to have politicians who, even if you disliked their ideologies/policies, you could respect their integrity.  

Now.  Goodness me

And, I also laugh at the "oh my , why are we so divided" brigade.  We've always been hugely anti EU Federalism as a country.  It has just been ignored for decades.  We only got a Referendum as some nerks in Whitehall incorrectly advised Cameron he would win!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s not over yet, both sides can then be judged, one minor point, they managed to get 27 different Countries to agree the deal.
		
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Not really surprising when it is largely in their favour. I agree with your first point, nothing is done yet.


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## Dando (Mar 29, 2019)

IanM said:



			We used to have politicians who, even if you disliked their ideologies/policies, you could respect their integrity.  

Now.  Goodness me

And, I also laugh at the "oh my , why are we so divided" brigade.  We've always been hugely anti EU Federalism as a country.  It has just been ignored for decades.  We only got a Referendum as some nerks in Whitehall incorrectly advised Cameron he would win!!
		
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They clearly had no idea how many coffin dodging, racist, swivel eyed loons were uk residents ðŸ˜‰


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## IanM (Mar 29, 2019)

If you think wanting to get out of the EU is racist, theyve really got you , havent they?

Any other countries you think should pay vast sums of money to be governed by someone else?    Maybe the Aussies would be under Japan, or Brazil governed by Peru? 
Might be a laugh eh?


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## Foxholer (Mar 29, 2019)

IanM said:



*We used to have politicians who, even if you disliked their ideologies/policies, you could respect their integrity. *

Now.  Goodness me

And, I also laugh at the "oh my , why are we so divided" brigade.  We've always been hugely anti EU Federalism as a country.  It has just been ignored for decades.  We only got a Referendum as some nerks in Whitehall incorrectly advised Cameron he would win!!
		
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I believe we still do - at least quite a few! Ken Clarke and Dame Margaret Beckett are 2. May herself is probably another and I'm also a fan of Yvette Cooper (dubious choice of husband though?). And Rees-Mogg's 'integrity' is fine with me - though easily questioned too! My electorate's MP (Hammond) is another 'honest worker' too!

Can't stand Boris though, nor Gove! And Corbyn is too overtly creepy, but, perhaps unfortunately, unelectable while his predecessor (both demonstrating the 'power' of cliques within Labour was simply - somehow Old Testament-ishly - the wrong brother!) sits quietly 'wasting time' on the very back benches


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 29, 2019)

IanM said:



			If you think wanting to get out of the EU is racist, theyve really got you , havent they?

Any other countries you think should pay vast sums of money to be governed by someone else?    Maybe the Aussies would be under Japan, or Brazil governed by Peru?
Might be a laugh eh?
		
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OOOOOOOOOO so tempting but I shall refrain.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 29, 2019)

Dando said:



			They clearly had no idea how many coffin dodging, racist, swivel eyed loons were uk residents ðŸ˜‰
		
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And the majority had no idea how petulant and toddler-tantrum throwing the losing side would be just because they lost.


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## Foxholer (Mar 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OOOOOOOOOO so tempting but *I shall refrain*.

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Phew!


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2019)

So Sean O'Grady writing in the Independent suggests 3 options in a new 'vote' - 1. Remain, 2. Leave with 'soft' Brexit or 3. Leave on WTO terms.

In his wisdom he seems to have forgotten asking 40mill people to select one of 3 will not yield a majority because of statistical normalisation.  His options have 2 'leaving' possibilities which probability suggest would have a combined vote ahead of Remain. As a Remain supporter he is obviously hoping to split the Leave camp so that Remain achieves a higher score.

Not only have we got the MPs screwing up the logic but the media are demonstrating boundless stupidity as well.  This dog's breakfast is just getting more and more ridiculous by the minute.


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Because there's too many Leavers!

Sorry SR, I'm just being facetious for a bit of fun.
		
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Good grief man you can't have fun on here as you'll upset someone; this is serious _'putting the world to right_' stuff , you've obviously been in the sun too long !


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 29, 2019)

This is the MOST important comment on here today:

Thought SIL Hogie promised to return today.

Where is he as I am sure he has been watching from â€˜down underâ€™ and the post count would have increased by at least 2000!


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## Mudball (Mar 29, 2019)

Watching Guru on C4 news .. he is more savage than BBC. He took apart MPs on both side of the divide about their hypocrisy and their lack of understanding of the situation 

Saw an interview with an MP(did not catch his name but a brexiteer) .. his rationale for sticking together was (and I paraphrase) .. if there is a GE, the public will say the current MPs are not good and will choose far-left or far-right and that would not be good for the country...  

so look after their own job but not their constituents..


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Balderdash!
		
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Twaddle!!


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## Tashyboy (Mar 29, 2019)

Just outa interest, and I don't know the answer to this, but how many First time MPs were elected to Parliment at the last election, as well as the ones a couple of years before that. My reason being,these new MPs talk about deals re trade etc etc. But are they really more educated than the voters who by majority voted leave. Yet these newbies decide they know better.


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Just outa interest, and I don't know the answer to this, but how many First time MPs were elected to Parliment at the last election, as well as the ones a couple of years before that. My reason being,these new MPs talk about deals re trade etc etc. But are they really more educated than the voters who by majority voted leave. Yet these newbies decide they know better.
		
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626 out of 650 are not first timers. 155 were previously in business. A significant number are career politicians, a number coming through via councils(82), trade unions(30) and party officials/political researchers(92). Labour also has a relatively high number from education compared to other parties, e.g. teachers and lecturers.

Not sure what you can draw from that, especially as most are whipped on a regular basis and vote along party lines.


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## Imurg (Mar 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			moost are whipped on a regular basis.
		
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Not hard enough in my view although some of them will probably enjoy it.....


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## Old Skier (Mar 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Balderdash!
		
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We're did the 650+ come from. Do you have your own private MP.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			626 out of 650 are not first timers. 155 were previously in business. A significant number are career politicians, a number coming through via councils(82), trade unions(30) and party officials/political researchers(92). Labour also has a relatively high number from education compared to other parties, e.g. teachers and lecturers.

Not sure what you can draw from that, especially as most are whipped on a regular basis and vote along party lines.
		
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Hobbit, your thoughts me man. The MPs that have come via councils. How close are the links between say a Labour/ Tory councillor and the same political parties views. It may seem odd. But I had a 24 yr old kid knocking on my door this week. He is standing as a Labour councillor. He has no chance as our councillor ( independant) is excellent. However when he told me he is Labour I told him he has no chance of my vote as Corbyn and Abbott are Buffoons. He said quote" The Labour Party and labour councillors are not the same, they are totally differant". I was gobsmacked. Are they?
Ironically he knocked on my door two days later, he was struggling to get 10 people to support him standing and asked me to sign his nomination form. I said it's not happening. However after a few seconds thought, I did. I told him that if Labour carry on as they are they will not Govern for 20 years and he has a chance to change that. But I thought his Labour political and council quote was odd. It was almost as odd as his Mum chaperoning him around the streets whilst canvassing.


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## User62651 (Mar 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Just outa interest, and I don't know the answer to this, but how many First time MPs were elected to Parliment at the last election, as well as the ones a couple of years before that. My reason being,these new MPs talk about deals re trade etc etc. But are they really more educated than the voters who by majority voted leave. Yet these newbies decide they know better.
		
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The electorate chose them because they had the courage to stand too. MPs are easy targets, doing a tougher job than most give them credit for, in Commons frequently but also trying to do surgeries in their own constituencies all over UK too. Taking abuse verbally and written on a daily basis, one even murdered in the street. Then they have party whips ordering them to vote certain ways. Any of us could stand for election if we wanted to make an actual difference in politics, most couldn't do it though. Anyone on here in local government even?
Its an unprecedented political mess presently, I think Govt got it wrong, rather than MPs. May lost a parliamentary majority yet chose to still be bullish and stick her head in the sand and ignore the views of roughly half the country, in a hung parliament. Was never going to pan out well. She was still at it today after another defeat,  almost delusional.


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## Mudball (Mar 29, 2019)

Not a surprise and no longer relevant some may argue.. but from the Electoral Commission announcement..
	


Does this mean that the referendum was officially based on a pack of lies or deceit?  Good day to get bad news out today.. no one is looking


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## Tashyboy (Mar 29, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			The electorate chose them because they had the courage to stand too. MPs are easy targets, doing a tougher job than most give them credit for, in Commons frequently but also trying to do surgeries in their own constituencies all over UK too. Taking abuse verbally and written on a daily basis, one even murdered in the street. Then they have party whips ordering them to vote certain ways. Any of us could stand for election if we wanted to make an actual difference in politics, most couldn't do it though. Anyone on here in local government even?
Its an unprecedented political mess presently, I think Govt got it wrong, rather than MPs. May lost a parliamentary majority yet chose to still be bullish and stick her head in the sand and ignore the views of roughly half the country, in a hung parliament. Was never going to pan out well. She was still at it today after another defeat,  almost delusional.
		
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I don't know if I am grasping at straws or what, but I am trying to make sense out of this pigs ear of a mess, and looking at all trains of thought.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 29, 2019)

Tashy your councillor was right to a large extent. The general philosophy will be the same but local councillors work far more on local issues and don't really touch big national issues. It's not unusual for councillors to distance themselves from national leaders or controversial policies. 

Last local elections I voted for a councillor from a party I've never voted for before as he was more in tune with my views locally than the other candidates. I don't remember seeing the name of the party leader in any of their literature.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 29, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Not a surprise and no longer relevant some may argue.. but from the Electoral Commission announcement..
	View attachment 26963


Does this mean that the referendum was officially based on a pack of lies or deceit?  Good day to get bad news out today.. no one is looking
		
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Unlike the Government's lies which I seem to remember were circulated via the leaflet prior to the election, thus avoiding having to put the excessive costs onto the election accounts?


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Hobbit, your thoughts me man. The MPs that have come via councils. How close are the links between say a Labour/ Tory councillor and the same political parties views. It may seem odd. But I had a 24 yr old kid knocking on my door this week. He is standing as a Labour councillor. He has no chance as our councillor ( independant) is excellent. However when he told me he is Labour I told him he has no chance of my vote as Corbyn and Abbott are Buffoons. He said quote" The Labour Party and labour councillors are not the same, they are totally differant". I was gobsmacked. Are they?
Ironically he knocked on my door two days later, he was struggling to get 10 people to support him standing and asked me to sign his nomination form. I said it's not happening. However after a few seconds thought, I did. I told him that if Labour carry on as they are they will not Govern for 20 years and he has a chance to change that. But I thought his Labour political and council quote was odd. It was almost as odd as his Mum chaperoning him around the streets whilst canvassing.
		
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To be honest Tashy, I don't know. I suppose you could say that if someone has decided to stand as an MP they have an affinity for that party. You'd hardly likely get someone standing for something they don't agree with. But that doesn't mean they agree with the party leadership... I guess its a how long is a piece of string thing.

As to age, if they good enough they're old enough.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 29, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Tashy your councillor was right to a large extent. The general philosophy will be the same but local councillors work far more on local issues and don't really touch big national issues. It's not unusual for councillors to distance themselves from national leaders or controversial policies.

Last local elections I voted for a councillor from a party I've never voted for before as he was more in tune with my views locally than the other candidates. I don't remember seeing the name of the party leader in any of their literature.
		
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To be honest LT me heads spinning a bit with it because 82 have come from councils to become MPs which out of 650 Mps is quite a few. I did tell this kid that he is going for the wrong seat. Our independant councillor is nailed on, however, the other seat in our village is an independant and he is moving on as he knows he is out.


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2019)

Got my local council voting card in today. Yay voting.


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			To be honest LT me heads spinning a bit with it because 82 have come from councils to become MPs which out of 650 Mps is quite a few. I did tell this kid that he is going for the wrong seat. Our independant councillor is nailed on, however, the other seat in our village is an independant and he is moving on as he knows he is out.
		
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It could be argued that you should get him voted in. It'll give him the experience he needs for when the current shower start retiring.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It could be argued that you should get him voted in. It'll give him the experience he needs for when the current shower start retiring.
		
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Which was my train if thought when i signed his nomination form. If nothing changes.  Then nothing changes. â˜¹ï¸


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			To be honest LT me heads spinning a bit with it because 82 have come from councils to become MPs which out of 650 Mps is quite a few. I did tell this kid that he is going for the wrong seat. Our independant councillor is nailed on, however, the other seat in our village is an independant and he is moving on as he knows he is out.
		
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I'm never quite sure if it's good or not to have come through the council system. Good because it gives them a taste of how public service works,  bad because they have little experience of real world jobs. They can be a bit institutionalised and on the whole I don't think it is that effective. 

I'm a big fan of independent councillors and MPs. They aren't tied to party lines, can vote on each issue with a clear mind. You are lucky to have one.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 29, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111706731728568323


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## chrisd (Mar 29, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Got my local council voting card in today. Yay voting.
		
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Got mine yesterday and it's gone straight in the bin, democracy is dead and voting isn't worth the walk to the polling station


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## adam6177 (Mar 29, 2019)

Just had a little giggle to myself..... At 4:30pm today a pro brexit march started in London. Tommy Robinson, Nigel farage, ukip etc all took part and spoke in front of some fairly decent sized crowds..... I doubt many will have seen much about it as the main media outlets seem to have chosen not to run a story on it.... Unlike the anti brexit marches.

Anyway, point of my post is that I've finally seen an article on sky news about it..... And the story they choose to run..... 5 people arrested, I bet that's made the media's day ðŸ˜…ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜†


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I don't know if I am grasping at straws or what, but I am trying to make sense out of this pigs ear of a mess, and looking at all trains of thought.
		
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Go back to the referendum Tash, 2 choices, stay or leave.
Stay, to a degree was an easier choice, ie, continue on the inside and accept the rules and fight for change from within.
Leave, imo, was the difficult choice, ie, it meant so many different things to so many different people, no deal, soft brexit, hard brexit, project fear, etc nobody actually defined Leave.

Now if you read Spongebobâ€™s link post #8184 youâ€™ll find it quite an eye opener, the EU had a plan and made a statement 5hrs after the 2016 result and they have budged on nothing.
Cameron had refused to let anybody even plan for leave result. EU had a Plan B, we still donâ€™t.

Then look at TM and her refusal to listen or discuss with anyone outside her team and the deal she agreed to after 2yrs negotiations which was defeated by an embarassing margin and still today for a 3rd has changed nothing.

Parliament only saw the details in Dec last year, Remain MPâ€™s were never going to back it, sheâ€™d lost the support of hard liners in her party, it went too far for some and not far enough for others, so instead of listening and trying to amend her deal to a point of getting a majority we have had all sorts of MPâ€™s putting suggestions forward, trying to come up with an alternative that Parliament and more importantly TM would support, all to no avail and today she tried for a 3rd time, all this in 3 months!

I really donâ€™t know what people expected Parliament to do? Should they of just shut up and accepted a bad deal?
Tried as they did, to get involved and make a lot of noise, but all to fall on deaf ears.
Push the No Deal, make a lot of people happy but take us into the unknown and hope any pain would be short term?

TM has to make some concessions, whether thatâ€™s to resign or start to listen I donâ€™t know, but one thingâ€™s for sure, itâ€™s still her choice and hers alone to choose.


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## adam6177 (Mar 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Got mine yesterday and it's gone straight in the bin, democracy is dead and voting isn't worth the walk to the polling station
		
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I know this won't be to the taste of many, but your view was exactly mine.... Until this afternoon.  I see that Nigel farage is now the leader of the "brexit party". He'll be getting my vote.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Just had a little giggle to myself..... At 4:30pm today a pro brexit march started in London. Tommy Robinson, Nigel farage, ukip etc all took part and spoke in front of some fairly decent sized crowds..... I doubt many will have seen much about it as the main media outlets seem to have chosen not to run a story on it.... Unlike the anti brexit marches.

Anyway, point of my post is that I've finally seen an article on sky news about it..... And the story they choose to run..... 5 people arrested, I bet that's made the media's day ðŸ˜…ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜†
		
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You were probably in work, but both Sky News and BBC News Channel covered it live and interviewed people in the crowd, I watched it.
They didnâ€™t broadcast any of the speechâ€™s though and I donâ€™t know if they did during the remain march.


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## adam6177 (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You were probably in work, but both Sky News and BBC News Channel covered it live and interviewed people in the crowd, I watched it.
They didnâ€™t broadcast any of the speechâ€™s though and I donâ€™t know if they did during the remain march.
		
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I stand corrected ðŸ‘


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2019)

What I'm interested in the selected 'alternatives' our MPs eventually distill. Does this start a new round with the EU. The crux, it to me seems is whether really the EU want the UK to say what they want - if so where have they been over the last couple of years? 

What can we present in two weeks that will be inline with the Barnier's deal as agreed by the 27 and NOT to be re-opened. A General Election might bring on a new UK team but they will still have to negotiate with the same  EU? 

Goal posts on wheels!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I stand corrected ðŸ‘
		
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No worries mate, sad life watching it all this afternoon! The joys of retirement.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			What I'm interested in the selected 'alternatives' our MPs eventually distill. Does this start a new round with the EU. The crux, it to me seems is whether really the EU want the UK to say what they want - if so where have they been over the last couple of years?

What can we present in two weeks that will be inline with the Barnier's deal as agreed by the 27 and NOT to be re-opened. A General Election might bring on a new UK team but they will still have to negotiate with the same  EU?

Goal posts on wheels!!
		
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Maybe our only weapon is no deal and start from fresh.


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe our only weapon is no deal and start from fresh.
		
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Bearing in mind how much the EU has moved in the last 2 years I think you may well be right.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Bearing in mind how much the EU has moved in the last 2 years I think you may well be right.
		
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It may also be after the Euro Elections and they might have a different team in place.


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## robinthehood (Mar 29, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Just had a little giggle to myself..... At 4:30pm today a pro brexit march started in London. Tommy Robinson, Nigel farage, ukip etc all took part and spoke in front of some fairly decent sized crowds..... I doubt many will have seen much about it as the main media outlets seem to have chosen not to run a story on it.... Unlike the anti brexit marches.

Anyway, point of my post is that I've finally seen an article on sky news about it..... And the story they choose to run..... 5 people arrested, I bet that's made the media's day ðŸ˜…ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜†
		
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Easy to see bias where it doesn't exist. The march was on the BBC news headlines just now.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



_*Easy to see bias where it doesn't exist.*_ The march was on the BBC news headlines just now.
		
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Oh,the irony ðŸ™„


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## robinthehood (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh,the irony ðŸ™„
		
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Usual uneducated guff from you. Just for once say something with a little substance.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 29, 2019)

Tough choice ahead for May.

Strictly or Jungle...â€¦@ break the News.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Usual uneducated guff from you. Just for once say something with a little substance.
		
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Thats  so funny, it really is, oh dear, oh dear dear ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚.   Uneducated, something with a little substance ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚  All you have done here is post silly one linerers with no substance.  OH! The irony â˜º


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## robinthehood (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats  so funny, it really is, oh dear, oh dear dear ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚.   Uneducated, something with a little substance ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚  All you have done here is post silly one linerers with no substance.  OH! The irony â˜º
		
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Boom, you never fail to disappoint.


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## Slime (Mar 29, 2019)

A woman after my own heart;


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 29, 2019)

Estimated cost since June 2016 Â£63,000,000,000 to UK


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

I have criticised May on her poor negotiating and producing this terrible withdraw agreement.  Lets imagine she would have taken a harder stance and negotiated a better deal that included a good free trade arrangement that satisfied the Irish border, security for EU and UK citizens etc, would such a deal still have a chance of being accepted by parliament.  I imagine Labour, The SNP, Lib Dems, Green and a number of Remain Conservatives would probably vote down anything that means we leave the EU, in the case of Labour it would be voted down whatever it was other than another general election.  May really has an impossible task.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 29, 2019)

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/231563

9,000 Scots sign petition


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Boom, you never fail to disappoint.
		
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ðŸš®ðŸš®ðŸš®ðŸš®


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## IainP (Mar 29, 2019)

Local news was covering the vehicle plants that moved the annual shutdown to coincide with the 29th of March - oops.

On a related theme, does anyone know the distribution of Japanese car manufacturers factories across Europe?


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## chrisd (Mar 29, 2019)

Slime said:



			A woman after my own heart;







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I watched this earlier today, some hard hitting truths there


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I have criticised May on her poor negotiating and producing this terrible withdraw agreement.  Lets imagine she would have taken a harder stance and negotiated a better deal that included a good free trade arrangement that satisfied the Irish border, security for EU and UK citizens etc, would such a deal still have a chance of being accepted by parliament.  I imagine Labour, The SNP, Lib Dems, Green and a number of Remain Conservatives would probably vote down anything that means we leave the EU, in the case of Labour it would be voted down whatever it was other than another general election.  May really has an impossible task.
		
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Rubbish! Youâ€™re once again trying to shift blame, Labour put forward a plan to Leave as one of the options the other night. Some Labour politicians voted for her plan today, more tories didnâ€™t.
She hasnâ€™t listened, it has come from her own cabinet.
Iâ€™m 100% positive if the roles had been reversed you would only be blaming Labour!
If sheâ€™d of got such a plan and satisfied her own party and the DUP, everyone else would of been irrelevant.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



*Rubbish*! Youâ€™re once again trying to shift blame, Labour put forward a plan to Leave as one of the options the other night. Some Labour politicians voted for her plan today, more tories didnâ€™t.
She hasnâ€™t listened, it has come from her own cabinet.
Iâ€™m 100% positive if the roles had been reversed you would only be blaming Labour!
If sheâ€™d of got such a plan and satisfied her own party and the DUP, everyone else would of been irrelevant.
		
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I am adopting a policy on here where a post contains an insult i will not debate it. If you want to question me try a less confrontational approach please.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

Slime said:



			A woman after my own heart;







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Thatâ€™s quality.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am adopting a policy on here where a post contains an insult i will not debate it. If you want to question me try a more adult approach please.
		
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Great policy, just like TM to bury your head in the sand. 
Tell me again who the snowflakes are!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Great policy, just like TM to bury your head in the sand.
Tell me again who the snowflakes are!
		
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Do you want a discussion or a bun fight.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 29, 2019)

Slime said:



			A woman after my own heart;







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If the European union had budged millimetres on Cameron s request we wouldn't be in this mess.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you want a discussion or a bun fight.
		
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Itâ€™s you that likes a bun fight, I believe your post is rubbish and I explained my reasons why.
Youâ€™re obviously very sensitive, donâ€™t answer the posts or answer them, it wonâ€™t change the way I read them or answer them.
Do you not find it weird you have more run-ins on this thread off topic than anyone else.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

I just heard a comment on newsnight that i thought was apt.  "What if the referendum result would have been reversed and the vote was to remain, then parliament voted for us to leave. How would remainers feel about that"


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## spongebob59 (Mar 29, 2019)

Leader of the new TIG/change party not of to a good start.

https://order-order.com/2019/03/29/...ction-promises/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s you that likes a bun fight, I believe your post is rubbish and I explained my reasons why.
Youâ€™re obviously very sensitive, donâ€™t answer the posts or answer them, it wonâ€™t change the way I read them or answer them.
Do you not find it weird you have more run-ins on this thread off topic than anyone else.

Click to expand...

I do and its with people like you who bring the debate into a slanging match by using insults to people with different views..   This is proving my point.    Drop the insults as otherwise I'm not interested.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I do and its with people like you who bring the debate into a slanging match by using insults to people with different views..   This is proving my point.    Drop the insults as otherwise I'm not interested.
		
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You remind me of David Cameron 
Talk a good game.. soon as you get an answer you donâ€™t like you wash your hands of the situation 

The less said about the pig the better ðŸ‘Œ


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			You remind me of David Cameron
Talk a good game.. soon as you get an answer you donâ€™t like you wash your hands of the situation

The less said about the pig the better ðŸ‘Œ
		
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Give up, I'm not biting ðŸš®  Drop the insults first ðŸ‘


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## pauljames87 (Mar 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Give up, I'm not biting ðŸš®
		
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Ok David


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Ok David
		
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 ðŸš®


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2019)

Are we prepared to pay Â£100 million + for EU elections and then the ongoing cost of MEPs?


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## Mudball (Mar 30, 2019)

I must say i m officially in doting admiration for May... she plans to bring the bill for the 4th time !!! 

She is like the drunken boxer who keeps getting up and throws a punch every time she gets KOed 

And like a true gambler Hacker and I put a tenner on it passing this time. The margin of defeat is narrowing every time.  She must be onto something here..


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## PieMan (Mar 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I just heard a comment on newsnight that i thought was apt.  "What if the referendum result would have been reversed and the vote was to remain, then parliament voted for us to leave. How would remainers feel about that"
		
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I can see the point that quote was trying to make but in the wider context I'm afraid that's not relevant at all. Obviously if the original referendum result had been remain then we'd have just carried on as we were.

Besides the majority of MPs are remainders.

In all likelihood Cameron would still be PM! Even Boris and Gove would probably be back in the Cabinet despite campaigning for Leave.

Leave in the form of Farage and others would still be vocal but the question of Europe within the Tory party would've been put to bed for a good while IMHO; at least until the next Treaty change/Member State increase/transfer of even more powers to Brussels.

There are 2 reasons why we're in this mess the way I see it.

1) Brexit and the negotiations should have been led by Leave MPs from across all parties, reporting back to the Government and Parliament.

2) The Remain side has been far better orchestrated trying to derail Brexit AFTER the referendum than it was trying to prevent it BEFORE! Remain took the general public for granted and just assumed the result would go their way.


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## adam6177 (Mar 30, 2019)

I'm accused of seeing bias where there is none.... Jon snow commenting on the pro brexit march yesterday:







Absolutely outrageous.


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## User20205 (Mar 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I'm accused of seeing bias where there is none.... Jon snow commenting on the pro brexit march yesterday:







Absolutely outrageous.
		
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Its definitely loaded, but he has a point re diversity. look at the images from yesterday itâ€™s a group from one demographic. Iâ€™m not sure thatâ€™s particularly healthy moving forward.


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## User20205 (Mar 30, 2019)

I genuinely feel Iâ€™ve moved position on this. I voted remain, mainly to preserve the status quo, as things are ok......but I do find the detachment between the result & the desire of Westminster to implement it, worrying. 
Post referendum, Iâ€™ve read more, and it seems to me that the EU project is a barrier to democracy, and this is a prime example of that. 
If there was a second referendum, which I donâ€™t advocate, Iâ€™m not sure how Iâ€™d vote. If I could see a definitive roadmap to leave, that would sway me


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## bluewolf (Mar 30, 2019)

therod said:



			Its definitely loaded, but he has a point re diversity. look at the images from yesterday itâ€™s a group from one demographic. Iâ€™m not sure thatâ€™s particularly healthy moving forward.
		
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Agreed. The point was crass and unnecessary, but the attendees at yesterday's march should have worried a few people. The Far Right from all across Europe were represented. A bit worrying and totally unrepresentative of the majority of the Leave fraternity.


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## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I'm accused of seeing bias where there is none.... Jon snow commenting on the pro brexit march yesterday:







Absolutely outrageous.
		
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Your original post was that the pro brexit march got less air time,  yet it was one of the main stories across the news. Now you're trying to find a different angle. Not sure I'd be pleased to have Tommy Robinson representing me


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 30, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I must say i m officially in doting admiration for May... she plans to bring the bill for the 4th time !!! 

She is like the drunken boxer who keeps getting up and throws a punch every time she gets KOed 

And like a true gambler Hacker and I put a tenner on it passing this time. The margin of defeat is narrowing every time.  She must be onto something here..
		
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Alternatively she's an addict who doesn't know when or how to stop.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I have criticised May on her poor negotiating and producing this terrible withdraw agreement.  Lets imagine she would have taken a harder stance and negotiated a better deal that included a good free trade arrangement that satisfied the Irish border, security for EU and UK citizens etc, would such a deal still have a chance of being accepted by parliament.  I imagine Labour, The SNP, Lib Dems, Green and a number of Remain Conservatives would probably vote down anything that means we leave the EU, in the case of Labour it would be voted down whatever it was other than another general election.  May really has an impossible task.
		
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The only thing stopping the deal is the Irish border. Sort that and it would have got through ages ago.

One could argue that if you know you can't get something through parliament then don't waste everyone's time trying. 

Said it before but there are many remainers who, whilst not wanting to leave, would accept a deal. If people like that are continually portrayed as wanting to revoke article 50 then eventually they may well move to that position.


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## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2019)

Just checking if  bojo's cake he said we can have and eat is ready yet? Also my son has a dodgy knee and the earliest consultant apt is august, Is that 350 million available yet? so we can speed the NHS up a bit


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## Hobbit (Mar 30, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Rubbish! Youâ€™re once again trying to shift blame, Labour put forward a plan to Leave as one of the options the other night. Some Labour politicians voted for her plan today, more tories didnâ€™t.
She hasnâ€™t listened, it has come from her own cabinet.
Iâ€™m 100% positive if the roles had been reversed you would only be blaming Labour!
If sheâ€™d of got such a plan and satisfied her own party and the DUP, everyone else would of been irrelevant.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			I am adopting a policy on here where a post contains an insult i will not debate it. If you want to question me try a less confrontational approach please.
		
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To be fair, he said your post was rubbish, not you. I canâ€™t see an insult in it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 30, 2019)

Contrast the diversity between the personnel at yesterday's pro Brexit march and last weeks leave march.
 I know what side I would rather be on.

The NI border was always going to be the stumbling block to Brexit.
May's cabinet must have known that from day one. 
I would imagine it would have been far from the thoughts of the vast majority of Leave voters when they cast their vote.


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## adam6177 (Mar 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Your original post was that the pro brexit march got less air time,  yet it was one of the main stories across the news. Now you're trying to find a different angle. Not sure I'd be pleased to have Tommy Robinson representing me
		
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I'm not trying to "find" anything, simply mentioning a news clip related to brexit from last night that is still loaded with the feeling that leavers are white racists....

As for Tommy Robinson - I've done enough research on the guy to not be fully swayed by the way the mainstream media portray him, especially in recent times. I don't expect anyone else to have to same view as me - we all have the right to dislike someone for what we think they believe in. I think otherwise on him today.


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			We're did the 650+ come from. Do you have your own private MP.
		
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It would probably have been easier if you had quoted the correct post, but I assume you are querying the '+'! Agreed there are precisely 650.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I'm not trying to "find" anything, simply mentioning a news clip related to brexit from last night that is still loaded with the feeling that leavers are white racists....

As for Tommy Robinson - I've done enough research on the guy to not be fully swayed by the way the mainstream media portray him, especially in recent times. I don't expect anyone else to have to same view as me - we all have the right to dislike someone for what we think they believe in. I think otherwise on him today.
		
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Someone once said that to debate with someone you need to understand their thinking, which I agree with. 

So in the interests of debate what about Tommy Robinsons 'manifesto' for want of a better description, so you agree with? And are there any parts you do not?


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...
The NI border was always going to be the stumbling block to Brexit.
May's cabinet must have known that from day one.
...
		
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I'm sure they did!


Doon frae Troon said:



			...
I would imagine it would have been far from the thoughts of the vast majority of Leave voters when they cast their vote.
		
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And so it should have been! 

The difficulty of 'managing' the Irish border has no bearing on whether folk believe UK should (or should not) Leave the EU!


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## bluewolf (Mar 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I'm not trying to "find" anything, simply mentioning a news clip related to brexit from last night that is still loaded with the feeling that leavers are white racists....

As for Tommy Robinson - I've done enough research on the guy to not be fully swayed by the way the mainstream media portray him, especially in recent times. I don't expect anyone else to have to same view as me - we all have the right to dislike someone for what we think they believe in. I think otherwise on him today.
		
Click to expand...

The man is a hate monger, an opportunist, a criminal and a viper. And that's my educated opinion....

Oh, and as I said before, I know full well that yesterday's march is in no way indicative of the entire Leave vote, but it might be time for the ordinary Leave voter to reclaim the narrative from the Far Right morons who are claiming to represent you. 

They're in danger of making it very easy for Politicians to trivialise the Leave vote as "Thick, uneducated racists" and use this to turn public opinion against the (God help me) "Will of the People".


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...
Parliament only saw the details in Dec last year, Remain MPâ€™s were never going to back it, sheâ€™d lost the support of hard liners in her party, it went too far for some and not far enough for others, so instead of listening and trying to amend her deal to a point of getting a majority we have had all sorts of MPâ€™s putting suggestions forward, trying to come up with an alternative that Parliament and more importantly TM would support, all to no avail and today she tried for a 3rd time, all this in 3 months!

I really donâ€™t know what people expected Parliament to do? Should they of just shut up and accepted a bad deal?
Tried as they did, to get involved and make a lot of noise, but all to fall on deaf ears.
Push the No Deal, make a lot of people happy but take us into the unknown and hope any pain would be short term?

TM has to make some concessions, whether thatâ€™s to resign or start to listen I donâ€™t know, but one thingâ€™s for sure, itâ€™s still her choice and hers alone to choose.
		
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I believe May realised that trying to get concensus was never going to work - at least for her, as she's not 'set up for consensus'. Her performance in the Home Office demonstrated that!

While she could probably made a 'better show of it' by defining, then agreeing!! her/the Red Lines, I still believe we would have ended very much in the same place that we are now! I believe the only way to implement the Referendum result, from where we are now, is to lt the defasult 'No Deal' withdrawl happen, then start negotiations about borders and relationships, particularly trade, from scratch!


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			What I'm interested in the selected 'alternatives' our MPs eventually distill. Does this start a new round with the EU. The crux, it to me seems is whether really the EU want the UK to say what they want - if so where have they been over the last couple of years?

What can we present in two weeks that will be inline with the Barnier's deal as agreed by the 27 and NOT to be re-opened. A General Election might bring on a new UK team but they will still have to negotiate with the same  EU?

Goal posts on wheels!!
		
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A GE will achieve absolutely zilch! Tha call for one is simply a (totally understandable) ploy by Corbyn to grab power! Labour negotiators will not be able to get any better deals from the EU than the Tory ones.


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## Slime (Mar 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			A GE will achieve absolutely zilch! *The call for one is simply a (totally understandable) ploy by Corbyn to grab power!* Labour negotiators will not be able to get any better deals from the EU than the Tory ones.
		
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I don't believe Corbyn wants to be PM yet, because we are still in the EU.
That would mean he'd have to negotiate a leave deal, which I think is nigh on impossible to do, when I don't believe he wants to negotiate with anyone.
I think he wants to become PM AFTER we've left the EU so he won't have to negotiate deals with anyone.
He'll then be in charge of an independant state which he could then totally ruin without the interference of Europe!


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am adopting a policy on here where a post contains an insult i will not debate it. If you want to question me try a less confrontational approach please.
		
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Oh the irony! 

Though it should reduce the amount of balderdash/twaddle I have to read through


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 30, 2019)

Slime said:



			I don't believe Corbyn wants to be PM yet, because we are still in the EU.
That would mean he'd have to negotiate a leave deal, which I think is nigh on impossible to do, when I don't believe he wants to negotiate with anyone.
I think he wants to become PM AFTER we've left the EU so he won't have to negotiate deals with anyone.
He'll then be in charge of an independant state which he could then totally ruin without the interference of Europe!
		
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If he was remotely serious about being PM, heâ€™d get rid of Dianne Abbott! Joke of a party with that by his side.


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle!!
		
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I couldn't have put it better myself!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			To be fair, he said your post was rubbish, not you. I canâ€™t see an insult in it.
		
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Exactly, he said my post was rubbish. I can accept someone saying they think I'm wrong or they disagree but if he was speaking to me face to face and started his reply with "Rubish" then I wouldnt discuss it further.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Oh the irony! 

Though it should reduce the amount of balderdash/twaddle I have to read through
		
Click to expand...

ðŸš®


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## User62651 (Mar 30, 2019)

Seems Dominic Grieve who is acknowledged as a good MP,  a statesman with integrity and brains, to be deselected by his local Tory association which has been invaded by UKIP new 'members' over the last year registering as Conservatives to force this. Tory central office should get on top of that.

If he is booted out for some fat thick unpleasant Mark Francois type I hope he stands for the new lot and voters stand by him so he wins next GE seat or by election. Need more bright considered MPs in his mould imo. 

Where is leadership??? Bloody mess.


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## bluewolf (Mar 30, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Seems Dominic Grieve who is acknowledged as a good MP,  a statesman with integrity and brains, to be deselected by his local Tory association which has been invaded by UKIP new 'members' over the last year registering as Conservatives to force this. Tory central office should get on top of that.

If he is booted out for some fat thick unpleasant Mark Francois type I hope he stands for the new lot and voters stand by him so he wins next GE seat or by election. Need more bright considered MPs in his mould imo.

Where is leadership??? Bloody mess.
		
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Even more ridiculous when you considee that his constituency voted to Remain! Politics in this country has been invaded by poorly educated dicksweats from the Far Left and Far Right. It's been ignored too long and allowed to fester like an infection. It'll only stop when people start to condemn it.


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## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Exactly, he said my post was rubbish. I can accept someone saying they think I'm wrong or they disagree but if he was speaking to me face to face and started his reply with "Rubish" then I wouldnt discuss it further.
		
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Come on, all you do is try and shout down others and mislead with half truths and other BS peddled by Bojo & co, when you get found out you turn to just being insulting.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Come on, all you do is try and shout down others and mislead with half truths and other BS peddled by Bojo & co, when you get found out you turn to just being insulting.
		
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So you have nothing to add to the discussion but insults. It's very ironic.


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## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So you have nothing to add to the discussion but insults. It's very ironic.
		
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Ah the very post that proves the point.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Seems Dominic Grieve who is acknowledged as a good MP,  a statesman with integrity and brains, to be deselected by his local Tory association which has been invaded by UKIP new 'members' over the last year registering as Conservatives to force this. Tory central office should get on top of that.

If he is booted out for some fat thick unpleasant Mark Francois type I hope he stands for the new lot and voters stand by him so he wins next GE seat or by election. Need more bright considered MPs in his mould imo. 

Where is leadership??? Bloody mess.
		
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Grieve has worked consistently against his parties manifesto on Brexit, he also votes against the party whip. I agree he is a clever MP and other than his Brexit views a good Conservative.  He should have followed Sourbry so that his voting  could be in line with his conscience.


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## adam6177 (Mar 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Someone once said that to debate with someone you need to understand their thinking, which I agree with.

So in the interests of debate what about Tommy Robinsons 'manifesto' for want of a better description, so you agree with? And are there any parts you do not?
		
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Yes and yes, but I don't feel hijacking this thread is the right place to debate him.  I'll just add though for some context that I find his anti Islam stance fairly hard to swallow, but his stance on the "establishment" I often find myself nodding along to and he has rather well exposed the press, the BBC and the government for being unscrupulous.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Yes and yes, but I don't feel hijacking this thread is the right place to debate him.  I'll just add though for some context that I find his anti Islam stance fairly hard to swallow, but his stance on the "establishment" I often find myself nodding along to and he has rather well exposed the press, the BBC and the government for being unscrupulous.
		
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Must admit I am not familiar with his views on 'the establishment'.  Are they along the lines of he is playing the class warrior against the establishment?  He sees all MPs and press as a whole establishment thing that is there to just forward their interests, and those interests are not those of the non establishment?


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## adam6177 (Mar 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Must admit I am not familiar with his views on 'the establishment'.  Are they along the lines of he is playing the class warrior against the establishment?  He sees all MPs and press as a whole establishment thing that is there to just forward their interests, and those interests are not those of the non establishment?
		
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I can't really do him justice (positive and negative) in a post... There are many many videos that he's been part of that have truly shocked me to the point that I no longer believe the rehtoric that you see in the current day press.

If you ever have some time free to waste, I'd suggest watching some of the stuff done by rebel media and also on his YouTube channel.

As I said, his anti Islam stuff is pretty hard to digest but it becomes obvious very quickly that he isn't an uneducated oaf hell bent on causing racial hatred... A lot of what he says makes sense and is hard to ignore.  But I accept that his routes make it difficult to give him the time of day.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I can't really do him justice (positive and negative) in a post... There are many many videos that he's been part of that have truly shocked me to the point that I no longer believe the rehtoric that you see in the current day press.

If you ever have some time free to waste, I'd suggest watching some of the stuff done by rebel media and also on his YouTube channel.

As I said, his anti Islam stuff is pretty hard to digest but it becomes obvious very quickly that he isn't an uneducated oaf hell bent on causing racial hatred... A lot of what he says makes sense and is hard to ignore.  But I accept that his routes make it difficult to give him the time of day.
		
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Fair enough, chances are I won't search out his stuff on YouTube as currently all YouTube thinks I watch are Mark Crossfield videos so it just recommends other golf videos to me.  And I don't overly want it to be recommending videos similar to Tommy Robinsons.   My question would be that if the seemingly more sensible stuff is the gateway he uses to get people to listen to his anti-Islamic stuff.  As from perusing his Wikipedia pages he doesn't look that much of a nice person.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Fair enough, chances are I won't search out his stuff on YouTube as currently all YouTube thinks I watch are Mark Crossfield videos so it just recommends other golf videos to me.  And I don't overly want it to be recommending videos similar to Tommy Robinsons.   My question would be that if the seemingly more sensible stuff is the gateway he uses to get people to listen to his anti-Islamic stuff.  As from perusing his Wikipedia pages he doesn't look that much of a nice person.
		
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Just like the BNP used to fill their website full of sensible sounding policies to hide their racist intent

He is just a massive racist who has a brain cell but decided to use his ability to turn a phrase into drumming up hatred and Ill feeling

Then theirs tommy Robinson ðŸ˜‚ (I kid mark seems a decent guy)


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ah the very post that proves the point.
		
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You really are pathetic. You post juvenile one liners that have zero intellectual content. You were accusing Hobbit of only posting cut and paste a week ago but come over as a knuckle dragging neanderthal yourself.  I have decided not to debate with threads containing insults but I'm not sitting back when an intellectually subnormal like you tries it on.


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## drdel (Mar 30, 2019)

I like to fact that the 'remain' supporters appear to have a fleet of red buses to carry supporters and further their cause1

However the truth is there is one bus but the BBC keep showing the same shot even when it is broadcasting yesterday's Leave march !!

At least communism is upfront about controlling the propaganda.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			I like to fact that the 'remain' supporters appear to have a fleet of red buses to carry supporters and further their cause1

However the truth is there is one bus but the BBC keep showing the same shot even when it is broadcasting yesterday's Leave march !!

At least communism is upfront about controlling the propaganda.
		
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Keep looking for perceived bias and you'll always find it.  Also makes me wonder if the BBC is so biased then why watch it you get upset over the number of buses it is supposedly implying are in use?  It's as if you are deliberately trying to be triggered.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 30, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Seems Dominic Grieve who is acknowledged as a good MP,  a statesman with integrity and brains, to be deselected by his local Tory association which has been invaded by UKIP new 'members' over the last year registering as Conservatives to force this. Tory central office should get on top of that.

If he is booted out for some fat thick unpleasant Mark Francois type I hope he stands for the new lot and voters stand by him so he wins next GE seat or by election. Need more bright considered MPs in his mould imo.

Where is leadership??? Bloody mess.
		
Click to expand...

That is all we need, the few remaining decent MP's from both sides being deselected by their own idiot memberships.

I would like to see Change UK [dotorg] hoover these MP's up into a big enough party to split this failed two party system short term.
Long term The UK needs a modern electoral system, pop up to Holyrood to see how sensible folk do it.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 30, 2019)

May be the one good thing that will come out of this whole sorry episode is that 2 party first past the post politics is not longer fit for purpose in the 21st century. I saw that upskirt Chope had a majority of something like 25K and you do wonder how much 'democracy' or inclusion in the political process you feel in that constituency if you are not a fan of out of touch bill blocking dinosaurs. And I am sure it is the same in some Labour constituencies, how represented do people who don't overly like antisemitism feel.


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## drdel (Mar 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Keep looking for perceived bias and you'll always find it.  Also makes me wonder if the BBC is so biased then why watch it you get upset over the number of buses it is supposedly implying are in use?  It's as if you are deliberately trying to be triggered.
		
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You are taking life too serious. It was an observation of the reality of a few people (I'd guess about 15) riding on a banner laden bus in London yesterday and comparing it to the times and context under which it has been broadcast since. If you know better, so be it.


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			May be the one good thing that will come out of this whole sorry episode is that 2 party first past the post politics is not longer fit for purpose in the 21st century. I saw that upskirt Chope had a majority of something like 25K and *you do wonder how much 'democracy' or inclusion in the political process you feel in that constituency if you are not a fan of out of touch bill blocking dinosaurs.* And I am sure it is the same in some Labour constituencies, how represented do people who don't overly like antisemitism feel.
		
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It's not simply the 'big majority' electorates with 'dodgy' MPs though. Those with very good MPs are still effectively disenfranchised (at least compared to those in swing/marginal electorates) simply because they live in an area dominated by one of the parties! I would happily be a fan of a 'more balanced approach' where some sort of 'proportional representation' was included. But in that regard, the UK system (primarily the voters!) is very unsophisticated, which means the 'plebs' will almost certainly be against it - just as they overwhelmingly were when Lib-Dems extracted the referendum concession from the Tories - who weren't in favour of it in the first place!


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## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You really are pathetic. You post juvenile one liners that have zero intellectual content. You were accusing Hobbit of only posting cut and paste a week ago but come over as a knuckle dragging neanderthal yourself.  *I have decided not to debate with threads containing insults* but I'm not sitting back when an intellectually subnormal like you tries it on.
		
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Oof, thats gonna leave you pretty dry.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof, thats gonna leave you pretty dry.

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ðŸš®


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2019)

drdel said:



			I like to fact that the 'remain' supporters appear to have a fleet of red buses to carry supporters and further their cause1

However the truth is there is one bus but the BBC keep showing the same shot even when it is broadcasting yesterday's Leave march !!

*At least communism is upfront about controlling the propaganda.*

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So a little 'more honest' than you perhaps? 

Remember that some supposedly highly qualified posters on here apparently don't (or choose not to) know the difference between the 'Value of Trade' and 'Balance of Trade' terms! So, as somone both well qualified to both provide FACTS and also to have a personal opinion based on personal circumstances - and experiences - imo, you rather owe it to we plebs to make it clear when you are in 'mockery' mode. The 'Wink' emoticon (as above) seems reasonably appropriate for when you are in 'mickey-take' mode!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 30, 2019)

drdel said:



*You are taking life too serious*. It was an observation of the reality of a few people (I'd guess about 15) riding on a banner laden bus in London yesterday and comparing it to the times and context under which it has been broadcast since. If you know better, so be it.
		
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I'm not the one being triggered by a BBC report on buses.


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## Hobbit (Mar 30, 2019)

BBC bias on Brexit?

http://news-watch.co.uk/category/bbc-bias/

Ofcom has said there is no bias. Maybe there isn't but the article is worth a read. On one particular Radio 4 programme 75% of those interviewed were Remainers and 25% were Leavers. Easily done if the interviewer is in a predominantly Remain area - fair enough? Of those interviewed, the Leavers got 7% of the air time. Maybe the Remainers were more vocal.

The article as a whole might raise a few questions. Personally I don't see much bias, if any, in the interviews I've seen but I would question the quality of some of  the interviewers when it comes to asking informed questions.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			BBC bias on Brexit?

http://news-watch.co.uk/category/bbc-bias/

Ofcom has said there is no bias. Maybe there isn't but the article is worth a read. On one particular Radio 4 programme 75% of those interviewed were Remainers and 25% were Leavers. Easily done if the interviewer is in a predominantly Remain area - fair enough? Of those interviewed, the Leavers got 7% of the air time. Maybe the Remainers were more vocal.

The article as a whole might raise a few questions. Personally I don't see much bias, if any, in the interviews I've seen but I would question the quality of some of  the interviewers when it comes to asking informed questions.
		
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Not much coverage of the Channel 4 Team being threatened and chased away from filming yesterdayâ€™s march, I thought theyâ€™d want the coverage.


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## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			BBC bias on Brexit?

http://news-watch.co.uk/category/bbc-bias/

Ofcom has said there is no bias. Maybe there isn't but the article is worth a read. On one particular Radio 4 programme 75% of those interviewed were Remainers and 25% were Leavers. Easily done if the interviewer is in a predominantly Remain area - fair enough? Of those interviewed, the Leavers got 7% of the air time. Maybe the Remainers were more vocal.

The article as a whole might raise a few questions. Personally I don't see much bias, if any, in the interviews I've seen but I would question the quality of some of  the interviewers when it comes to asking informed questions.
		
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Who are news watch? Are they an impartial organisation? I'm not familiar with them.


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## Hobbit (Mar 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Who are news watch? Are they an impartial organisation? I'm not familiar with them.
		
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I can't find anything independent about News-watch. For who they are click on "About News-watch" on their own page. Also, the next header along on their page is all their reports dating back to 1999. 

Reading some of the reports gives the impression of bias by the BBC, backed by numbers of interviewees supporting Remain 'v' numbers of interviewees supporting Leave. On the face of it, having now read through several reports, it doesn't paint a pretty picture but, ideally, I'd prefer some corroboration.


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I can't find anything independent about News-watch. For who they are click on "About News-watch" on their own page. Also, the next header along on their page is all their reports dating back to 1999.

Reading some of the reports gives the impression of bias by the BBC, backed by numbers of interviewees supporting Remain 'v' numbers of interviewees supporting Leave. On the face of it, having now read through several reports, it doesn't paint a pretty picture but, ideally, I'd prefer some corroboration.
		
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Having done a bit of research on NewsWatch, I figure it's simply an anti-BBC group run by (ex?)media folk who have found a niche to exploit for themselves. Perhaps 'BBCWatch' would be a more appropriate name!

I'm inclined to believe that the Beeb is actually 'following the story' rather than being biased! When 'the story' is about the difficulties of negotiating with the EU (or the uncertainties of the entire Brexit process), for example, it's reasonable to 'focus on' (as opposed to being biased about) those difficulties.

If you really want to 'eliminate bias', I'd suggest reading both The Telegraph' (or maybe 'The Times' as Telegraph seems to have moved significantly further to 'the Right' over the years) and 'The Guardian' and absorb the same story from those papers' slants! I actually to use that method to make up my mind, as opposed to simply being told what to think, as happens in some papers.

All that said, it's definitely worthwhile to have some monitoring of the Beeb. Gradual/creeping manipulation of views is an 'evil' to be condemned wherever found! In that regard, the likes of the Daily Mail's overt approach could even be described as 'honest'! Now that's a scary thought!!


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## Mudball (Mar 31, 2019)

Yippee... Stayed off the forum for over 24 hours.  Came back to see that things have not moved much...   Still the boys in the blue corner v the boys in the red corner. 
World still existing nearly 48 hours after Apocalypse/Independence day.. 

.. Still the best meme out there


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2019)

I was going to make a humorous April Fool type post with something that is mostly ridiculous but there is a very small bit that is vaguely believable, detailing some silly initiative or mental speech that someone associated with the Brexit process has made.  But then I thought what's the point as it would be impossible to differentiate it from what is actually happening.


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## Pants (Apr 1, 2019)

A bit like your usual posts then


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## Mudball (Apr 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I was going to make a humorous April Fool type post with something that is mostly ridiculous but there is a very small bit that is vaguely believable, detailing some silly initiative or mental speech that someone associated with the Brexit process has made.  But then I thought what's the point as it would be impossible to differentiate it from what is actually happening.
		
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Here is an idea for an April fool joke.. _â€˜Chief Whip attacks Cabinet post Election strategy_â€™..  something he has been whipping everyone to do for past 2 years..


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2019)

Pants said:



			A bit like your usual posts then 

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## spongebob59 (Apr 1, 2019)

Not a great speech 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1112641288162209792


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## adam6177 (Apr 1, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Not a great speech
		
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Agree, it's not shocking though....just look at the Jon Snow C4 incident from last week, us leavers are still painted as thick racists.


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## bluewolf (Apr 1, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Agree, it's not shocking though....just look at the Jon Snow C4 incident from last week, us leavers are still painted as thick racists.
		
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No you're not. 
But you are in danger of appearing to be represented by them.


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## Hobbit (Apr 1, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Not a great speech


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1112641288162209792

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Not surprised. The more airtime he gets, the better. At least that way more people are aware of what a nasty piece of work he is.


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## jp5 (Apr 1, 2019)

Extremists on both sides unfortunately. A sensible way through would be found in the middle ground.


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## drdel (Apr 1, 2019)

A quick point of fact... Comment was based on seeing the real-time action being 'filmed' (while passing the march not while participating) compared to the later edited broadcast.

I'd also add that the bit I saw seemed to be taking place in a relatively relaxed atmosphere and with good humour between the two factions.


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## oxymoron (Apr 1, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Not a great speech


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1112641288162209792

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Is he trying to be the new Diane Abbott ?


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## adam6177 (Apr 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			No you're not.
But you are in danger of appearing to be represented by them.
		
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You're quite right, but who can we "blame" for that?  

I know I'll be accused again of seeing bias where I want, but the fact that some choose not to believe it doesnt make it lies.......I see news reports and I see football hooligan-esque, skin head troublemakers shown at leave events....then we cut to remain events and see level headed family types complaining their future has been sold down the river and we must save our country.

I firmly believe that there are idiots on both sides of the story, but I dont believe both sides are portrayed equally.


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## bluewolf (Apr 1, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			You're quite right, but who can we "blame" for that? 

I know I'll be accused again of seeing bias where I want, but the fact that some choose not to believe it doesnt make it lies.......I see news reports and I see football hooligan-esque, skin head troublemakers shown at leave events....then we cut to remain events and see level headed family types complaining their future has been sold down the river and we must save our country.

I firmly believe that there are idiots on both sides of the story, but I dont believe both sides are portrayed equally.
		
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I distrust the visuals as much as anyone. However, my nephew was on the front line of both marches (as a serving Police Officer) and the difference in behaviour was significant. No trouble at all on the Remain march. Even when Leave voters interacted it was good natured. By contrast, the Leave march was apparently like a football crowd. Aggressive behaviour. Drunken loutish men, threatening anyone who appeared different. 
I know that not all Leave voters are thick racists, but unfortunately, the cause has been hijacked by the Far Right. Ironically, this is giving the politicians a bloody good reason to marginalise and ignore the entire Leave vote


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## spongebob59 (Apr 1, 2019)

SNP's Westminster leader Ian Blackford confirms his party will vote for a plan to stay in the single market and customs union in tonight's votes on #*Brexit*


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## adam6177 (Apr 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I distrust the visuals as much as anyone. However, my nephew was on the front line of both marches (as a serving Police Officer) and the difference in behaviour was significant. No trouble at all on the Remain march. Even when Leave voters interacted it was good natured. By contrast, the Leave march was apparently like a football crowd. Aggressive behaviour. Drunken loutish men, threatening anyone who appeared different.
I know that not all Leave voters are thick racists, but unfortunately, the cause has been hijacked by the Far Right. Ironically, this is giving the politicians a bloody good reason to marginalise and ignore the entire Leave vote
		
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This is where I hope people are intelligent and savvy enough to know that a few thousand people attending a march dont represent the 17.4m who voted leave.

I'd genuinely be interested in the stats on a 2nd vote.  I went to a golf society day last week and spoke to 3 of the guys there who were talking brexit and all 3 said they'd now vote to leave purely on a moralistic point.

I've never know a subject to divide people to this extent.


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## robinthehood (Apr 1, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			You're quite right, but who can we "blame" for that? 

I know I'll be accused again of seeing bias where I want, but the fact that some choose not to believe it doesnt make it lies.......I see news reports and I see football hooligan-esque, skin head troublemakers shown at leave events....then we cut to remain events and see level headed family types complaining their future has been sold down the river and we must save our country.

I firmly believe that there are idiots on both sides of the story, but I dont believe both sides are portrayed equally.
		
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They are showing the news as it is. The leave protest had an address from edl founder Tommy Robinson. The referendum has been and gone, it can't be influenced by bias can it.


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## bluewolf (Apr 1, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			This is where I hope people are intelligent and savvy enough to know that a few thousand people attending a march dont represent the 17.4m who voted leave.

I'd genuinely be interested in the stats on a 2nd vote.  I went to a golf society day last week and spoke to 3 of the guys there who were talking brexit and all 3 said they'd now vote to leave purely on a moralistic point.

I've never know a subject to divide people to this extent.
		
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I'd expect Leave to win again. Probably with the same percentages. I know several Leave voters who've changed their minds, but I suspect they'll be cancelled out by Remain voters who just want it to be over and done with. The only chance Remain has got is that enough young people vote to make the change


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## Hobbit (Apr 1, 2019)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="



" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## spongebob59 (Apr 1, 2019)

So @*CiceroGlobal* have crunched the numbers and have @*NickBoles*'s Common Market 2.0 motion winning by 307 to 253, now that Labour are whipping in favour of it. As the least Brexity of all the Brexit options, that would put an enormous predatory cat among the Tory pigeons... 

And it would reinforce the PM's case to her rebel MPs that if they hold out against her deal till it can't even make a Carrie style hand-up-through-the-grave comeback, they may end up with the kind of Brexit that would might well be identified as Remain in a police line up


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So @*CiceroGlobal* have crunched the numbers and have @*NickBoles*'s Common Market 2.0 motion winning by 307 to 253, now that Labour are whipping in favour of it. As the least Brexity of all the Brexit options, that would put an enormous predatory cat among the Tory pigeons...

And it would reinforce the PM's case to her rebel MPs that if they hold out against her deal till it can't even make a Carrie style hand-up-through-the-grave comeback, they may end up with the kind of Brexit that would might well be identified as Remain in a police line up
		
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Isn't it the case that some of the rebel Tory MPs would like a softer Brexit so they won't come on board to vote for her deal if there is a softer alternative? So unless the DUP come on board to back up the ERGers who will now vote for the deal she is stuffed anyway?  Or are there enough labour MPs who will ignore the whip and vote for the deal?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I'd expect Leave to win again. Probably with the same percentages. I know several Leave voters who've changed their minds, but I suspect they'll be cancelled out by Remain voters who just want it to be over and done with. The only chance Remain has got is that enough young people vote to make the change
		
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I think you could add to that the number of young people who did not vote at the first opportunity.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you could add to that the number of young people who did not vote at the first opportunity.
		
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This for me shouldnâ€™t be allowed. I know if thereâ€™s a second vote theylll have that chance. But imo if you couldnâ€™t be bothered to turn up last time you donâ€™t get to this time. 

All people whoâ€™ve come of age obviously now have a chance.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			This for me shouldnâ€™t be allowed. I know if thereâ€™s a second vote theylll have that chance. But imo if you couldnâ€™t be bothered to turn up last time you donâ€™t get to this time.

All people whoâ€™ve come of age obviously now have a chance.
		
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But if there is another vote there will be different options on the ballot paper.  Jokes about democracy aside, you can't exclude people from voting on a subject just because they did not vote the last time a question was asked about the subject.  There may well have been people that were not arsed either way last time but this time have a strong view on wanting to remain, wanting to have a hard Brexit etc etc.  Why should they not be allowed a vote?


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## Papas1982 (Apr 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			But if there is another vote there will be different options on the ballot paper.  Jokes about democracy aside, you can't exclude people from voting on a subject just because they did not vote the last time a question was asked about the subject.  There may well have been people that were not arsed either way last time but this time have a strong view on wanting to remain, wanting to have a hard Brexit etc etc.  Why should they not be allowed a vote?
		
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If it comes to a vote on the style of brexit then Iâ€™m fully for all getting a vote. I s8mpy meant if it ended up being a revote. 

Irrespective of there being further infor available now, if they couldnâ€™t get off their arse last time then they donâ€™t deserve a second chance.


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## Hobbit (Apr 1, 2019)

If there is a second vote I'd hope that expats would be allowed to vote. What happens with Brexit has an economic impact on expats abroad and their families in the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 1, 2019)

Joanna Cherrie presently making more sense of Brexit in the last 20 mins than the Tory party has in the last 37 months.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If there is a second vote I'd hope that expats would be allowed to vote. What happens with Brexit has an economic impact on expats abroad and their families in the UK.
		
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Totally disagree with that, what the UK government agreed was good for 2014 should be good for 2019,


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			This for me shouldnâ€™t be allowed. I know if thereâ€™s a second vote theylll have that chance. But imo if you couldnâ€™t be bothered to turn up last time you donâ€™t get to this time.

All people whoâ€™ve come of age obviously now have a chance.
		
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Interesting point of view, but, imo, undemocratic!

For a start... Do you actually *know* that the 'couldn't be bothered? And so what if they 'couldn't be bothered' last time. The fact that they CAN be bothered next time (which I fundamentally object to anyway) surely gives them the right to do so!


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2019)

I very much doubt there will be a second vote, it will probably be a soft Brexit of some form eventually. But I would not completely rule out us leaving with no deal by accident.  Which would be a fitting epitaph to this process, we end up with the worst option and we did not even consciously go for it.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 1, 2019)

John Bercow has cooked up yet another Speakerâ€™s Stitch-Up Special with his selections for tonightâ€™s second batch of indicative votes tonight. Bercow selected only four Remainer motions for MPs to vote on tonight. _They are more or less identical to the ones which were all rejected just five days ago:_

C (Clarke) â€“ Customs Union _*â€“ already rejected 272-264*_
D (Boles) â€“ Common Market 2.0 _*â€“ already rejected 283-188*_
E (Kyle) â€“ Second referendum _*â€“ already rejected 295-268*_
G (Cherry) â€“ Revoke Article 50 *â€“*_* already rejected 293-184*_
Bercow refused to allow any Brexiteer motions including John Baronâ€™s Motion A on a unilateral right of exit from the backstop. _Despite this previously securing a majority in the Commons in the form of the Brady Amendment._
To be fair Joanna Cherryâ€™s is slightly different from the one rejected last time. It now also contains the bonkers provisions of launching a formal public inquiry to come up with a new kind of Brexit, which might then be put to the public in a second referendum to give the Government permission to re-trigger Article 50 and try to re-negotiate it with the EU months or even years down the line. _If it sounds mad itâ€™s because it is â€“ it was literally written by Jolyon Maughamâ€¦_
Bercow is now busy tying himself in knots trying to explain why he refused to allow the Government to use a secondary motion to bring back a Meaningful Vote, but will allow Hilary Benn and Oliver Letwinâ€™s secondary motion to bring back identical Indicative Votes twice in just four sitting days. _Of all the institutions which have lost the publicâ€™s trust over their attempts to subvert Brexit, none have been damaged more than the Office of the Speakerâ€¦_


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I very much doubt there will be a second vote, it will probably be a soft Brexit of some form eventually. But I would not completely rule out us leaving with no deal by accident.  Which would be a fitting epitaph to this process, *we end up with the worst option *and we did not even consciously go for it.
		
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That's not the worst option. Surely you remember "No Deal is better than a bad deal". Theresa May said so which means it must be true.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If there is a second vote I'd hope that expats would be allowed to vote. What happens with Brexit has an economic impact on expats abroad and their families in the UK.
		
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I'm ambivalent about this. But I'd suggest that those that became ex-pats after Ref 1 (which I believe incluydes you) shouldn't get a say - as they made their (your) choice based on UK leaving. Those that became ex-pats prior to Ref 1 *might* have an argument for consideration though.

I have to also say, following watching quite a lot of the parliamentary debate, Huw Merriman speaks a lot of sense about the having a 'confirmatory vote'! His point that Parliament hasn't been able to establish a consensus is the major reason. Nothing about the likely benefits/disadvantages of either of the options.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			John Bercow has cooked up yet another Speakerâ€™s Stitch-Up Special with his selections for tonightâ€™s second batch of indicative votes tonight. Bercow selected only four Remainer motions for MPs to vote on tonight. _They are more or less identical to the ones which were all rejected just five days ago:_

C (Clarke) â€“ Customs Union _*â€“ already rejected 272-264*_
D (Boles) â€“ Common Market 2.0 _*â€“ already rejected 283-188*_
E (Kyle) â€“ Second referendum _*â€“ already rejected 295-268*_
G (Cherry) â€“ Revoke Article 50 *â€“*_* already rejected 293-184*_
Bercow refused to allow any Brexiteer motions including John Baronâ€™s Motion A on a unilateral right of exit from the backstop. _Despite this previously securing a majority in the Commons in the form of the Brady Amendment._
To be fair Joanna Cherryâ€™s is slightly different from the one rejected last time. It now also contains the bonkers provisions of launching a formal public inquiry to come up with a new kind of Brexit, which might then be put to the public in a second referendum to give the Government permission to re-trigger Article 50 and try to re-negotiate it with the EU months or even years down the line. _If it sounds mad itâ€™s because it is â€“ it was literally written by Jolyon Maughamâ€¦_
Bercow is now busy tying himself in knots trying to explain why he refused to allow the Government to use a secondary motion to bring back a Meaningful Vote, but will allow Hilary Benn and Oliver Letwinâ€™s secondary motion to bring back identical Indicative Votes twice in just four sitting days. _Of all the institutions which have lost the publicâ€™s trust over their attempts to subvert Brexit, none have been damaged more than the Office of the Speakerâ€¦_

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Haven't seen what the Brexiteers motions were but if they are talking about revoking backstops then isn't that just pointless as the EU have said they are not renegotiating on that? So we can pass it 650 to 0 and it will not make any difference?  It is pretty clear to me that if any compromise will be found it will be found around a softer brexit so doesn't it make sense to see if there is a consensus to be found that the EU will accept?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's not the worst option. Surely you remember "No Deal is better than a bad deal". *Theresa May said so which means it must be true*.
		
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She has said a lot of things......


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## Papas1982 (Apr 1, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Interesting point of view, but, imo, undemocratic!

For a start... Do you actually *know* that the 'couldn't be bothered? And so what if they 'couldn't be bothered' last time. The fact that they CAN be bothered next time (which I fundamentally object to anyway) surely gives them the right to do so!
		
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Iâ€™m sure a small percentage had ligitimate reasons, illness etc but the rest imo will have been apathy. But as itâ€™s just my opinion, I donâ€™t need to justify its merits at such. I just feel if you canâ€™t be bothered for whatever reason then youâ€™ve given up your right. 

Totally accept it wonâ€™t happen, just donâ€™t like the idea on something so important people who didnâ€™t care last time are now going to vote. Iâ€™d question their motives thatâ€™s all.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Iâ€™m sure a small percentage had ligitimate reasons, illness etc but the rest imo will have been apathy. But as itâ€™s just my opinion, I donâ€™t need to justify its merits at such. I just feel if you canâ€™t be bothered for whatever reason then youâ€™ve given up your right.

Totally accept it wonâ€™t happen, just donâ€™t like the idea on something so important people who didnâ€™t care last time are now going to vote. Iâ€™d question their motives thatâ€™s all.
		
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Surely they are entitled to change their mind and vote one way or the other - I don't care which way. Are you also suggesting that any MP that has abstained on a vote shouldn't be allowed to vote on subsequent related votes?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Iâ€™m sure a small percentage had ligitimate reasons, illness etc but the rest imo will have been apathy. But as itâ€™s just my opinion, I donâ€™t need to justify its merits at such. I just feel if you canâ€™t be bothered for whatever reason then youâ€™ve given up your right.

Totally accept it wonâ€™t happen, *just donâ€™t like the idea on something so important people who didnâ€™t care last time are now going to vote*. Iâ€™d question their motives thatâ€™s all.
		
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You could apply that logic to general elections and we'd there would hardly anyone voting in them anymore as most of the population would be disqualified.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 1, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Surely they are entitled to change their mind and vote one way or the other - I don't care which way. Are you also suggesting that any MP that has abstained on a vote shouldn't be allowed to vote on subsequent related votes?
		
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My understanding of abstaining is that the vote is still done with them present? I Could be wrong. For me, thatâ€™s the same as spoiling. That I have no problem with at all, In fact I respect it. I wouldnâ€™t want them excluded.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			My understanding of abstaining is that the vote is still done with them present? I Could be wrong. For me, thatâ€™s the same as spoiling. That I have no problem with at all, In fact I respect it. I wouldnâ€™t want them excluded.
		
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To me, the effect is the same. If you can somehow identify those that considered 'not voting' the same as abstaining and re-enfranchising them (only) then you _might_ have a point. Personaly, I think it would be a new vote, so all previous (non-)activity is ignored!


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			My understanding of abstaining is that the vote is still done with them present? I Could be wrong. For me, thatâ€™s the same as spoiling. That I have no problem with at all, In fact I respect it. I wouldnâ€™t want them excluded.
		
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Abstaining members may or may not be present. Those not present obviously abstain. Those present who abstain simply don't vote one way or the other - by not going through either (Aye or No) lobby. No difference between that and a voter who decides not to vote - for whatever reason!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm ambivalent about this. But I'd suggest that those that became ex-pats after Ref 1 (which I believe incluydes you) shouldn't get a say - as they made their (your) choice based on UK leaving. Those that became ex-pats prior to Ref 1 *might* have an argument for consideration though.

I have to also say, following watching quite a lot of the parliamentary debate, Huw Merriman speaks a lot of sense about the having a 'confirmatory vote'! His point that Parliament hasn't been able to establish a consensus is the major reason. Nothing about the likely benefits/disadvantages of either of the options.
		
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Not entirely sure about Brianâ€™s position but in my case should I choose to leave to live abroad my work related pension would still be subject to PAYE taxation here. That means Iâ€™m paying for this shower so as far as Iâ€™m concerned wherever I am in the world Iâ€™m entitled to a vote. If they want to stop taxing me Iâ€™ll happily give up my voting rights.


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## Slime (Apr 1, 2019)

WARNING .............................. BAD LANGUAGE!
IF YOU'RE EASILY OFFENDED, LOOK AWAY.
It did make me laugh though.



http://imgur.com/RItRSP7


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## Hobbit (Apr 1, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not entirely sure about Brianâ€™s position but in my case should I choose to leave to live abroad my work related pension would still be subject to PAYE taxation here. That means Iâ€™m paying for this shower so as far as Iâ€™m concerned wherever I am in the world Iâ€™m entitled to a vote. If they want to stop taxing me Iâ€™ll happily give up my voting rights.
		
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If only it was that simple... yes I'm taxed as PAYE as a chunk of it is an NHS pension. However, there's also the healthcare issue. As part of the EU there is reciprocal healthcare. And then there's the freedom of movement and driving licences.

For example, if I decide to do a road trip tomorrow, through Spain and France to the UK, my driving licence and healthcare is covered for the entirety of the trip. Post-Brexit my healthcare would have to be via a private scheme and I would need 2 different driving permits.

Irrespective of where other expats pay their taxes, Brexit impacts on them and costs them money. Why can't they vote on it?


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## robinthehood (Apr 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If only it was that simple... yes I'm taxed as PAYE as a chunk of it is an NHS pension. However, there's also the healthcare issue. As part of the EU there is reciprocal healthcare. And then there's the freedom of movement and driving licences.

For example, if I decide to do a road trip tomorrow, through Spain and France to the UK, my driving licence and healthcare is covered for the entirety of the trip. Post-Brexit my healthcare would have to be via a private scheme and I would need 2 different driving permits.

Irrespective of where other expats pay their taxes, Brexit impacts on them and costs them money. Why can't they vote on it?
		
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on the bright side you can do it with a blue passport


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2019)

Looking at the last 2 videos posted about the European politicians wanting us to stay, why are we only seeming to see this side of Europe now (or have I not been looking hard enough?) ?


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## adam6177 (Apr 1, 2019)

I see some speeches Thatcher gave in 1992ish have sprung up over recent days.... Have others seen these?

Honestly it's like she had a crystal ball and is describing the exact situation we're in..... I have never and will never vote Tory in my life time, but she really was speaking sense on this subject.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 1, 2019)

Love this tweet !

Whatever the outcome of #*IndicativeVotes2*, if a referendum on Scottish independence ever won by anything like 52:48, I look forward to the #*SNP* talking about the need to respect the will of the 48, and about it was a vote for not-quite-independence and so staying in the Union.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 1, 2019)

We'll that's another four options kicked out again. Seeing as all of them were remain options one way or another. I think it could of kicked off if any of them had been voted on.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2019)

So they still fail to get anything past the post.  How much more of this must we have to tolerate.

Its about time they let a peoples vote be the decider and we had that one in 2016 so maybe one more indicative vote now with two options: Maybot 4, or Leave with no deal.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 1, 2019)

Customs union one only lost by 3 so this night get through on mv3 !!!

Not sure why they are bothering as the European union correspondent, Kat e ada!ya said the only withdraw al options were TM deal, no deal or no brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Customs union one only lost by 3 so this night get through on mv3 !!!

Not sure why they are bothering as the European union correspondent, Kat e ada!ya said the only withdraw al options were TM deal, no deal or no brexit.
		
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Even if it was voted for it's a horrible option. No ability to make our own trade deals, set tariffs, no say on any further rules but having to abide by them. It would be a betrail to the democratic will of the people.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 1, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1112828545150140416


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## jp5 (Apr 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Even if it was voted for it's a horrible option. No ability to make our own trade deals, set tariffs, no say on any further rules but having to abide by them. It would be a betrail to the democratic will of the people.
		
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No betrayal, it would be giving the people what they voted for, though admittedly not what they were promised.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2019)

Classic SNP mutterings from Ian Blackstock tonight. The SNP option being voted down is a complete disregard of Scotland's wish to remain in the EU.   I guess it can't be that others just didn't like it.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2019)

jp5 said:



			No betrayal, it would be giving the people what they voted for, though admittedly not what they were promised.
		
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As I said, it would be a betrail to the democratic will of the people.  They voted on leaving the EU whos institutions include the single market and customs union.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			As I said, it would be a betrail to the democratic will of the people.  They voted on leaving the EU whos institutions include the single market and customs union.
		
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No different to TMâ€™s deal then, thatâ€™s as much as a betrayal isnâ€™t it?

I voted leave, you voted leave, did we both vote for the same leave?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No different to TMâ€™s deal then, thatâ€™s as much as a betrayal isnâ€™t it?

I voted leave, you voted leave, did we both vote for the same leave?
		
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I think those of us who voted Leave voted to be completely rid of EU control Paul, so the customs union option as outlined above would be a complete betrayal. The most disappointing thing about all of this is to find that there are politicians in Europe who would be prepared to make compromises that could deal with a lot of the issues and potentially make remaining a viable option. Sadly they are not called Tusk, Juncker or Barnier.


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## Slab (Apr 2, 2019)

Looking at how the MPâ€™s voted (by party) itâ€™s clear that the Conservatives wonâ€™t vote for any option presented while Labour will vote for every deal regardless (as long as itâ€™s not Mayâ€™s initial deal)

Labour saying weâ€™ll have option A but if we canâ€™t have that weâ€™ll have option B and if A & B donâ€™t pass weâ€™ll go for option C etc etc. I donâ€™t see this as a viable strategy for a basis of the social and economic future
Conservatives saying we donâ€™t like any option (even if the proposal came from within the party) And we donâ€™t like our Leaders deal sufficiently to vote for that either (basically they have no clue what they want likely because they don't actually want to leave)
The only broad agreement is the majority of both parties donâ€™t want a No Deal (which ironically is what everyoneâ€™s steering events towards)  

As a collective they do seem pretty unfit for the purpose of government. When are they going to realise this is not a course of action that can be driven as a Party Political decision


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## Slab (Apr 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



*Customs union one only lost by 3 so this night get through on mv3 !!!*

Not sure why they are bothering as the European union correspondent, Kat e ada!ya said the only withdraw al options were TM deal, no deal or no brexit.
		
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Although closest on head to head results I understood 320 was required for a majority last night on any option, so customs union would be 47 short


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No different to TMâ€™s deal then, thatâ€™s as much as a betrayal isnâ€™t it?

I voted leave, you voted leave, did we both vote for the same leave?
		
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I didn't mention the PMs deal, it wasn't on the list last night.  I don't like any of the current options and would prefer us to leave asap. So what do you prefer?


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## robinthehood (Apr 2, 2019)

The will of the people?... Not really ..


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## spongebob59 (Apr 2, 2019)

Did anyone else watch Brexit storm ?

Laura K had a script from the chequers meeting, seems everyone was telling TM the deal was pants from the get go.

This whole mess appears to be TM's doing from the deal she negotiated and her refusal to budge.


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## adam6177 (Apr 2, 2019)

I do hope that it comes to a head very soon as we leave with no deal, I wonder if they're trying to grind us down so we'll accept any old agreement just to be done with it.


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## adam6177 (Apr 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Did anyone else watch Brexit storm ?

Laura K had a script from the chequers meeting, seems everyone was telling TM the deal was pants from the get go.

This whole mess appears to be TM's doing from the deal she negotiated and her refusal to budge.
		
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I didn't watch it, but from what you've said it was the conservative invention of the phrase "soft brexit" (ie TMs deal) that got us into the mess we're in.  They were determined to not lose ties with the EU and have done everything in their power to scupper the result of the vote.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 2, 2019)

Bernard Jenkin [Essex MP] talking about how 'we allowed' NI and Scotland to vote in 'our' election.
Dimwit must think Brexit is an English only matter.


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## jp5 (Apr 2, 2019)

No chance TMs deal is a soft brexit - is much harder than many could have dreamed for at time of the referendum.

Brexiters in parliament would do well to accept it or face no brexit at all. The tories are seeing, once again, that nothing is ever enough for them though.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I think those of us who voted Leave voted to be completely rid of EU control Paul, so the customs union option as outlined above would be a complete betrayal. The most disappointing thing about all of this is to find that there are politicians in Europe who would be prepared to make compromises that could deal with a lot of the issues and potentially make remaining a viable option. Sadly they are not called Tusk, Juncker or Barnier.
		
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Like you, what I thought Leave meant was never actually clarified, the only ones that tried to â€œexplainâ€ what leave meant were the likes of Cameron and that was dismissed as project fear.

I think itâ€™s the use of the English language I have the problem with, ie â€œthe death of democracyâ€ â€œthe will of the people being ignoredâ€ â€œa complete betrayalâ€ etc.

Iâ€™m happy to go with a no deal and start again, but even in that scenario it would be naive to think weâ€™ll get everything we want, there will be compromise in any agreement and to some even if we get 99% our own way theyâ€™ll still claim weâ€™ve been betrayed.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

jp5 said:



			No chance TMs deal is a soft brexit - is much harder than many could have dreamed for at time of the referendum.

Brexiters in parliament would do well to accept it or face no brexit at all. *The tories are seeing, once again, that nothing is ever enough for them though.*

Click to expand...

I think that criticism can be leveled at the whole house.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Like you, what I thought Leave meant was never actually clarified, *the only ones that tried to â€œexplainâ€ what leave meant were the likes of Cameron and that was dismissed as project fear*.

I think itâ€™s the use of the English language I have the problem with, ie â€œthe death of democracyâ€ â€œthe will of the people being ignoredâ€ â€œa complete betrayalâ€ etc.

Iâ€™m happy to go with a no deal and start again, but even in that scenario it would be naive to think weâ€™ll get everything we want, there will be compromise in any agreement and to some even if we get 99% our own way theyâ€™ll still claim weâ€™ve been betrayed.
		
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I don't believe that was dismissed as 'Project Fear'   It was the pledge the government were making to us prior to the referendum that whatever we decided would be carried out, no second referendums, no single market or customs union.  I took this as us trying to negotiate a trade deal and security issues, to settle any outstanding obligations and then leave.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I do hope that it comes to a head very soon as we leave with no deal, I wonder if they're trying to grind us down so we'll accept any old agreement just to be done with it.
		
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TMays tactic was always to wind the clock down so the choice is no deal or her deal.  But I continue to be confused by those who deliberately want a No Deal as I can not see any sense in that whatsoever.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't believe that was dismissed as 'Project Fear'   It was the pledge the government were making to us prior to the referendum that whatever we decided would be carried out, no second referendums, no single market or customs union.  I took this as us trying to negotiate a trade deal and security issues, to settle any outstanding obligations and then leave.
		
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Cameron was putting all the negatives forward when campaigning for remain, unless of course you think it was a double bluff.
The majority of the leave campaign was â€œtaking back controlâ€ or posters.
Whether we wish to accept it or not â€œLeaveâ€ was never broken down as it never had a plan.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I see some speeches Thatcher gave in 1992ish have sprung up over recent days.... Have others seen these?

Honestly it's like she had a crystal ball and is describing the exact situation we're in..... I have never and will never vote Tory in my life time, but she really was speaking sense on this subject.
		
Click to expand...

Strange you should say that Adam, me dad was on about Her the other day saying we would not be in this mess if she was about. IF memory serves me right, was it not Europe that cost her the PMs job, of at least one of the reasons.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2019)

jp5 said:



			No betrayal, it would be giving the people what they voted for, though admittedly not what they were promised.
		
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If it did not allow us to set our trade deals, it was a betrayal, out means out.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2019)

Just out of interest, and I do not know why myself, but why is the prospect of leaving with no deal, then sorting out deals worldwide afterwards so bad?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Strange you should say that Adam, me dad was on about Her the other day saying we would not be in this mess if she was about. IF memory serves me right, *was it not Europe that cost her the PMs job*, of at least one of the reasons.
		
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It was one of the reasons, together with the recession and the Poll Tax.  She was very Eurosceptic and members of the cabinet were more Europhiles. I think it was the famous No, No, No speech about closer European integration that mostly sealed her fate.  Most Tory leaders seem to get infected with clashes over Europe in their party, it's kind of the Tories Kryptonite. In the past it has caused splits in their party, now they have kindly extended that to the whole nation.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Just out of interest, and I do not know why myself, but why is the prospect of leaving with no deal, then sorting out deals worldwide afterwards so bad?
		
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Because one could argue it is a massive amount of time, effort and resources needed which could be spent elsewhere on things like educations, the NHS, regional growth etc etc to essentially get what we already have now through the EU. Plus a great many businesses need to trade with the EU so having a withdrawal agreement with them is a good thing to have.  Demonstrating we can not do that on top of the image of utter incompetence we are portraying does not really exude a bargaining positions of strength in any future deals with the EU.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Just out of interest, and I do not know why myself, but why is the prospect of leaving with no deal, then sorting out deals worldwide afterwards so bad?
		
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Because itâ€™s not what anyone wanted, we were promised a deal by the leave campaign.


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## adam6177 (Apr 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			TMays tactic was always to wind the clock down so the choice is no deal or her deal.  But I continue to be confused by those who deliberately want a No Deal as I can not see any sense in that whatsoever.
		
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From my point of view it would be my preference as I'd prefer us to start from scratch with making new deals.  I firmly believe we could put ourselves in a better position by either new deals with the existing countries we trade with or make new deals with new suppliers..... could you see our roads full of US made cars instead of french, Italian etc (purely as a one off example).


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because itâ€™s not what anyone wanted, we were promised a deal by the leave campaign.
		
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But equally we were told (promised) that we would be leaving the Customs Union and Single Market by the remain campaign.


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## adam6177 (Apr 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Strange you should say that Adam, me dad was on about Her the other day saying we would not be in this mess if she was about. IF memory serves me right, was it not Europe that cost her the PMs job, of at least one of the reasons.
		
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Rather than spam this thread with her videos, I'll PM you a couple - I'm a bit young to remember her properly (I was born in 1980) but going purely on the speeches she gave it was enough to make me take note.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			But equally we were told (promised) that we would be leaving the Customs Union and Single Market by the remain campaign.
		
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Itâ€™s irrelevant what the remain campaign said, they lost remember.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Rather than spam this thread with her videos, I'll PM you a couple - I'm a bit young to remember her properly (I was born in 1980) but going purely on the speeches she gave it was enough to make me take note.
		
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Churchill made some decent speeches as well in his time, 
Thatcherâ€™s speeches were made in a different time in a different world, financial climate, etc, hindsight is a wonderful thing!
40 years since her speeches and only 40 years before them we were at war with Germany.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s irrelevant what the remain campaign said, they lost remember. 

Click to expand...

Ah yes, very good point. Maybe they need to get over it.


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## robinthehood (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because itâ€™s not what anyone wanted, we were promised a deal by the leave campaign.
		
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The easiest one in history apparently


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## jp5 (Apr 2, 2019)

Europe ends up costing every Tory PM their job eventually. Suspect there will be a few more to add to that list!

Essentially all boils down to our electoral system. If we had a more representative model there would be a majority of MPs for Brexit and they could sort out between themselves what it means. Unfortunately the bloke that ran the LeaveEU campaign also ran the campaign to scupper any chance of electoral reform... so here we are.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			From my point of view it would be my preference as I'd prefer us to start from scratch with making new deals.  I firmly believe we could put ourselves in a better position by either new deals with the existing countries we trade with or make new deals with new suppliers..... could you see our roads full of US made cars instead of french, Italian etc (purely as a one off example).
		
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You wouldn't even see the roads in America full of US made cars.

Build quality issues and a shrinking manufacturing base.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			From my point of view it would be my preference as I'd prefer us to start from scratch with making new deals.  I firmly believe we could put ourselves in a better position by either new deals with the existing countries we trade with or make new deals with new suppliers..... *could you see our roads full of US made cars instead of french, Italian etc (purely as a one off example)*.
		
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Not really as US cars are made for the US market so they are generally very big and unsuited to our road and parking network, relatively fuel inefficient, the quality is not perceived as being very good and if you are into the driving experience usually not that good to drive.  Every time I go to the US and get a hire car they are fine for wallowing along the freeway at 75 mph on cruise control, but most of them would not be much cop in this country. And how much time and effort will it need to create all these new deals and is there not a better use of the that time?


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## adam6177 (Apr 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			And how much time and effort will it need to create all these new deals and is there not a better use of the that time?
		
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This is the side of the argument that I dont get.  We've been in the EU for 40 years or so and have made these deals along the way to the current day..... I'm interested in what our country will be like in the next 5-40 years, a bit of short term "pain" to me is acceptable for a better long term future.

Again I concede that it's all subjective and ifs and buts, but for me my vision is long term.


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## robinthehood (Apr 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			This is the side of the argument that I dont get.  We've been in the EU for 40 years or so and have made these deals along the way to the current day..... I'm interested in what our country will be like in the next 5-40 years, a bit of short term "pain" to me is acceptable for a better long term future.

Again I concede that it's all subjective and ifs and buts, but for me my vision is long term.
		
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Well as we are moving toward climate Armageddon  and destruction of our way of life as we know it,  going it alone  makes little sense.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Cameron was putting all the negatives forward when campaigning for remain, unless of course you think it was a double bluff.
The majority of the leave campaign was â€œtaking back controlâ€ or posters.
Whether we wish to accept it or not â€œLeaveâ€ was never broken down as it never had a plan.
		
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You are correct that Cameron never formulated a plan for a 'Leave ' result as he never believed it would happen.   That's not the fault of people who voted leave though as they would expect our politicians to have considered all options, it's what someone in business would do every time.

Cameron was indeed a part of the 'Project Fear' campaign and forecast all sorts of nasties that would happen the moment we had a leave vote but he did send a booklet to every household in the country saying the result of the referendum would be respected, there are also videos showing him pledging to honor the outcome.





This is a clip from the booklet


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## robinthehood (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are correct that Cameron never formulated a plan for a 'Leave ' result as he never believed it would happen.   That's not the fault of people who voted leave though as they would expect our politicians to have considered all options, it's what someone in business would do every time.

Cameron was indeed a part of the 'Project Fear' campaign and forecast all sorts of nasties that would happen the moment we had a leave vote but he did send a booklet to every household in the country saying the result of the referendum would be respected, there are also videos showing him pledging to honor the outcome.






Click to expand...

All good, but people can get things wrong and change their minds . If we had another referendum remain would win 70/30


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are correct that Cameron never formulated a plan for a 'Leave ' result as he never believed it would happen.   That's not the fault of people who voted leave though as they would expect our politicians to have considered all options, it's what someone in business would do every time.

Cameron was indeed a part of the 'Project Fear' campaign and forecast all sorts of nasties that would happen the moment we had a leave vote but he did send a booklet to every household in the country saying the result of the referendum would be respected, there are also videos showing him pledging to honor the outcome.






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I know, I voted leave but still didnâ€™t expect a no deal scenario, as above, even the leave campaign in their leaflet said weâ€™ll have a deal.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			All good, but people can get things wrong and change their minds . If we had another referendum remain would win 70/30
		
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What if the next one was 52/48 remain, can we have a third winner takes all referendum?


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## robinthehood (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What if the next one was 52/48 remain, can we have a third winner takes all referendum?
		
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Nope,  it would have to be rock , paper,  scissors,  lizard,  Spock.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			All good, but people can get things wrong and change their minds . If we had another referendum remain would win 70/30
		
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Maybe many who voted Remain would change to leave.  I cant see that anyone could be certain on the result of another referendum. One thing is certain , it would deepen divisions in the country.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I know, I voted leave but still didnâ€™t expect a no deal scenario, as above, even the leave campaign in their leaflet said weâ€™ll have a deal.
		
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It was always the default position with Article 50.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It was always the default position with Article 50.
		
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So why are so many screaming for a no deal? We were never voting for that!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2019)

The EU (Barnier's) new negotiating position; sign up to the  deal or else...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47783127


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			The EU (Barnier's) new negotiating position; sign up to the  deal or else...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47783127

Click to expand...

Call his bluff, we wonâ€™t fall over!!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So why are so many screaming for a no deal? We were never voting for that!
		
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Paul, I would have preferred to have been able to negotiate a deal as there are undoubted advantages in staying in, healthcare & the driving licence issue for two.  There is also the argument that we should remain in and effect change from within.  However we seem unable to change minds from within, despite there being politicians abroad who still value our input, so maybe the way forward is to take everything back then agree to give ground where it suits us; Merkel may then be forced to listen to her own politicians rather than Macron.  The one big advantage of this is that it would appear to remove us from the financial liability when the apparently inevitable collapse comes about.


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because itâ€™s not what anyone wanted, we were promised a deal by the leave campaign.
		
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We were 'promised' that the deal would be 'Great'! From none other than Bozo!


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## Dando (Apr 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The easiest one in history apparently
		
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They said it â€œshouldâ€ be easy


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			This is the side of the argument that I dont get.  We've been in the EU for 40 years or so and have made these deals along the way to the current day..... I'm interested in what our country will be like in the next 5-40 years, a bit of short term "pain" to me is acceptable for a better long term future.

Again I concede that it's all subjective and ifs and buts, but for me my vision is long term.
		
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It's also highly likely that a No Deal would mean that the UK's Financial Services 'Passporting' would be lost which would be pretty devastating for that part of the economy - and here's a link that demonstrates how important the UK's Financial Services industry is, particularly to London! https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06193


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Paul, I would have preferred to have been able to negotiate a deal as there are undoubted advantages in staying in, healthcare & the driving licence issue for two.  There is also the argument that we should remain in and effect change from within.  *However we seem unable to change minds from within*, despite there being politicians abroad who still value our input, so maybe the way forward is to take everything back then agree to give ground where it suits us; Merkel may then be forced to listen to her own politicians rather than Macron.  The one big advantage of this is that it would appear to remove us from the financial liability when the apparently inevitable collapse comes about.
		
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before this all kicked off effectively nothing got agreed in the EU unless it was signed off by us, France and Germany.  Yes this is an old video and yes he is a professor studying the EU so some may well claim bias but from around 5.40 he explains how it used to work with regards to power in the EU.


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## adam6177 (Apr 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It's also highly likely that a No Deal would mean that the UK's Financial Services 'Passporting' would be lost which would be pretty devastating for that part of the economy - and here's a link that demonstrates how important the UK's Financial Services industry is, particularly to London! https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06193

Click to expand...

I work in that sector and I'm sorry to say it's largely being over dramatized.  Our London office workers would become employees of our luxembourg or swiss offices and then simply work in a "branch" located in London.  It's what all the companies are doing and although administratively intensive it's really a non issue.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Paul, I would have preferred to have been able to negotiate a deal as there are undoubted advantages in staying in, healthcare & the driving licence issue for two.  There is also the argument that we should remain in and effect change from within.  However we seem unable to change minds from within, despite there being politicians abroad who still value our input, so maybe the way forward is to take everything back then agree to give ground where it suits us; Merkel may then be forced to listen to her own politicians rather than Macron.  The one big advantage of this is that it would appear to remove us from the financial liability when the apparently inevitable collapse comes about.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s were Iâ€™ve moved to, initially I wanted to leave with a decent deal, some give, some take.
The deal on offer is a bad deal, our idiots in Parliament are scrambling about trying to move forward and the EU are offering nothing to help.
My only concern is how long the pain and at what cost to the poorest in our society.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s were Iâ€™ve moved to, initially I wanted to leave with a decent deal, some give, some take.
The deal on offer is a bad deal, our idiots in Parliament are scrambling about trying to move forward and the EU are offering nothing to help.
My only concern is how long the pain and at what cost to the poorest in our society.
		
Click to expand...

Short term I share your concern Paul, long term I think the removal of the potential millstone round our neck offers us the best long term deal.


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## robinthehood (Apr 2, 2019)

Dando said:



			They said it â€œshouldâ€ be easy
		
Click to expand...

Yes 'one of the easiest in human history'
How's that working out ?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes 'one of the easiest in human history'
How's that working out ?
		
Click to expand...

The bunker shot should be the easiest shot in golf; put an incompetent on the other end of the club, or have someone interfering with your stance and it becomes difficult, if not impossible.  Sound familiar?


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## Crazyface (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So why are so many screaming for a no deal? We were never voting for that!
		
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Becuase we never voted FOR a deal either. It was a simple in or out. If we'd voted to remain would we have had 3 years of asking a question..But how do we want to Remain?


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## Crazyface (Apr 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes 'one of the easiest in human history'
How's that working out ?
		
Click to expand...

It's only because the idiot MP's went to negotiate. See how that's working out.


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## Crazyface (Apr 2, 2019)

And why is it all negative about trade? Jesus H, most of our companies are owned by the rest of Europe so any delay in product at the ports would hit their production and therefore profits. So that's just not going to happen is it. Think about it.


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## Mudball (Apr 2, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			And why is it all negative about trade? Jesus H, most of our companies are owned by the rest of Europe so any delay in product at the ports would hit their production and therefore profits. So that's just not going to happen is it. Think about it.
		
Click to expand...

Good one.. this is similar to the  argument that BoJo and Gove made before the referendum about the Germans will be dying for a deal because they need to sell us cars..  but havenâ€™t seen the Germans or their car makers capitulate yet.. 


In other news.. Got to love the Tory trash talk (and trashing the country in the process) 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1113000006330585088


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## drdel (Apr 2, 2019)

While its a little interesting to discuss a Customs Union type arrangement and other indicative votes, its just navel gazing. These and and similar possibilities that appeal to Soft brexiteers and Labour are all 'LEAVE' options and the only way to reach these future discussions is to *First *have a signed Withdrawl Agreement! So the only real 3 choices are Remain, Leave or complete a Withdrawl Agreement and since the only WA on the table is (IMO) rubbish (and the EU say they won't re-open that) then I think there's only two moves possible; stay or go.


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## User62651 (Apr 2, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			It's only because the idiot MP's went to negotiate. See how that's working out.
		
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So who should have gone to negotiate? Some non-idiot MPs? You've had Davis and Raab and Barclay, all leavers, fronting it then in turn Davis and Raab giving up because they didn't want their personal political ambitions thwarted by association with a failure of negotiation. Just carp from the sidelines instead. Gove was offered it too but preferred to hide away at Environment, self protection. After his role in Leave he should have been jumping at it. Instead he's towing the line backing the PMs duff deal.

I'm sure there was a pretty bright capable team of civil servants doing the donkey work in the negotiations anyway and they came up with the best they could after May's red lines were exposed as fantasy.


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I work in that sector and I'm sorry to say it's largely being over dramatized.  Our London office workers would become employees of our luxembourg or swiss offices and then simply work in a "branch" located in London.  It's what all the companies are doing and although administratively intensive it's really a non issue.
		
Click to expand...

Makes a lot of sense - at least for some institutions, that are 'based' outside UK already. The overall value to 'UK Ltd' may not change for those institutions, but could well do, dramatically, for others (for Banks, the likes of Barclays, RBS, Lloyds etc for example?) depending on where profits are reported/tax is paid!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Becuase we never voted FOR a deal either. It was a simple in or out. If we'd voted to remain would we have had 3 years of asking a question..But how do we want to Remain?
		
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YES YOU DID! Thatâ€™s the point, both sides made promises, Remain promised reform, Leave promised a deal that would be best for us.


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## jp5 (Apr 2, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So who should have gone to negotiate? Some non-idiot MPs? You've had Davis and Raab and Barclay, all leavers, fronting it then in turn Davis and Raab giving up because they didn't want their personal political ambitions thwarted by association with a failure of negotiation. Just carp from the sidelines instead. Gove was offered it too but preferred to hide away at Environment, self protection. After his role in Leave he should have been jumping at it. Instead he's towing the line backing the PMs duff deal.

I'm sure there was a pretty bright capable team of civil servants doing the donkey work in the negotiations anyway and they came up with the best they could after May's red lines were exposed as fantasy.
		
Click to expand...

Nail on the head. All the politicians that promised the easiest deal in history have seemed rather reluctant to actually deliver it.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because itâ€™s not what anyone wanted, we were promised a deal by the leave campaign.
		
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For the first time, I never knew the leave campaign promised a deal. But with all the crap going off, am not sure how they could of got one. To simplify things. It now seems that the political party's are voting on proposals that have not been accepted by the EU. Any proposal that hypothetically could get voted through could well be knocked back by the EU.


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## GB72 (Apr 2, 2019)

Honest question here as I have missed this point. Can someone tell me what the DUP actually want. They do not want the May deal, they do not want any of the options that have been put forward for votes and have voted against everything. Do they want no deal, no brexit, I honestly cannot recall reading what they do want, only what they do not want.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s were Iâ€™ve moved to, initially I wanted to leave with a decent deal, some give, some take.
The deal on offer is a bad deal, our idiots in Parliament are scrambling about trying to move forward and the EU are offering nothing to help.
My only concern is how long the pain and at what cost to the poorest in our society.
		
Click to expand...

Agree, saw this the other day and it seemed to make sense.

The problem with the UK is that the folk earning Â£500+ an hour seem to have convinced the folk earning Â£25 an hour that all our problems are caused by those earning Â£9.80 an hour.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe many who voted Remain would change to leave.  I cant see that anyone could be certain on the result of another referendum. One thing is certain , it would deepen divisions in the country.
		
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Plus if leaving without a deal knocks the country back a year or two, am not sure another referendum or general election in the short term is gonna help either.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Honest question here as I have missed this point. *Can someone tell me what the DUP actually want.* They do not want the May deal, they do not want any of the options that have been put forward for votes and have voted against everything. Do they want no deal, no brexit, I honestly cannot recall reading what they do want, only what they do not want.
		
Click to expand...

To extend their moment in the spotlight as the Tories rely on them (in most cases)?   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46903876


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Plus if leaving without a deal knocks the country back a year or two, a*m not sure another referendum or general election in the short term is gonna help either*.
		
Click to expand...

Do you really want the current shower negotiating our future in these critical times?


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## GB72 (Apr 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			To extend their moment in the spotlight as the Tories rely on them (in most cases)?   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46903876

Click to expand...

THanks for that. On the basis that it wants NI treated the same as the rest of the UK in any deal, surely anything that suggests a customs union or similar for the whole of the UK should fit the bill. Should I read in to that that it wants a hard border to further distance the UK from the remainder of Ireland or is that too simplified.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Agree, saw this the other day and it seemed to make sense.

*The problem with the UK is that the folk earning Â£500+ an hour seem to have convinced the folk earning Â£25 an hour that all our problems are caused by those earning Â£9.80 an hour.*

Click to expand...

At least reference your sources  

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1052472392545579008


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			While its a little interesting to discuss a Customs Union type arrangement and other indicative votes, its just navel gazing. These and and similar possibilities that appeal to Soft brexiteers and Labour are all 'LEAVE' options and the only way to reach these future discussions is to *First *have a signed Withdrawl Agreement! So the only real 3 choices are Remain, Leave or complete a Withdrawl Agreement and since the only WA on the table is (IMO) rubbish (and the EU say they won't re-open that) then I think there's only two moves possible; stay or go.
		
Click to expand...

This ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ I have been saying for months and months The deal offered is crap. The EU had a chance ( when May went back) to soften the blow to the Irish backstop and they refused. Instead of the EU sitting round a table, you have a dictator also known as chief negotiator Barnier saying " this deal is not changing". Instead of the EU countries democratically discussing what will be offered, one person Barnier has played hardball. It is a decision that someone took and has helped neither side. When all this is finished his name will be mud.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

GB72 said:



			THanks for that. On the basis that it wants NI treated the same as the rest of the UK in any deal, surely anything that suggests a customs union or similar for the whole of the UK should fit the bill.* Should I read in to that that it wants a hard border to further distance the UK from the remainder of Ireland or is that too simplified.*

Click to expand...

Doubt it as they know where that will end up and I suspect even they are not stupid enough to want a return to the old days.  But then again in the Brexit process I think most people have forgot what they do want.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Do you really want the current shower negotiating our future in these critical times?
		
Click to expand...

Nope, I did say a week or so ago, that these idiots that don't know which feet there shoes go on are the ones that will be negotiating deals.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			This ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ I have been saying for months and months The deal offered is crap. The EU had a chance ( when May went back) to soften the blow to the Irish backstop and they refused. Instead of the EU sitting round a table, you have a dictator also known as chief negotiator Barnier saying " this deal is not changing". *Instead of the EU countries democratically discussing what will be offered, one person Barnier has played hardbal*l. It is a decision that someone took and has helped neither side. *When all this is finished his name will be mud*.
		
Click to expand...

He had the complete backing of all the EU countries to negotiate o their behalf after they had an agreed strategy.  Something we struggled to do. And I really hope that after all this your main take is not that Barnier is the main bad guy here.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 2, 2019)

After their first two attempts at a coup flopped miserably, the Cooper/Boles/Benn/Letwin shadow Government have significant escalated their takeover plans, with Yvette Cooper tabling a full-on Brexit-blocking Bill which they will try to ram through the Commons tomorrow. _The Bill tries to block a no-deal Brexit by ordering the PM to seek yet another Article 50 extension from the EU._
The plotters arenâ€™t even trying to use the excuse any more that theyâ€™re just trying to let Parliament have its say, by trying to force through an entire Act of Parliament they are taking on the mantle of a Government but with none of the accountability or scrutiny that should involve. _All in the name of blocking the countryâ€™s biggest ever democratic voteâ€¦_


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## spongebob59 (Apr 2, 2019)

So @*oletwinofficial* and @*YvetteCooperMP* have - at last some would say - organised a genuine moment of Brexit truth, with a bill they are laying, the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.5) Bill, that would compel the PM to sue the EU for another Brexit postponement. It would be... 

the definitive castration of this government, if passed by MPs and Lords. But time really tight for it actually to work, because there would be literally no time for the PM to decide on a delay, work out what it's for, and brief @*eucopresident* so that he can sound out EU... 

leaders ahead of the emergency council on 10 April. It is all very well for MPs and Lords to say they want a postponement, but why on earth should EU leaders agree if there is literally no sense of what the UK actually wants?


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## adam6177 (Apr 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Makes a lot of sense - at least for some institutions, that are 'based' outside UK already. The overall value to 'UK Ltd' may not change for those institutions, but could well do, dramatically, for others (for Banks, the likes of Barclays, RBS, Lloyds etc for example?) depending on where profits are reported/tax is paid!
		
Click to expand...

you may well be right, I cant say for sure but we "deal" with 3-4 different Barclays entities, 2 of those are not UK based so I suspect they'd have a plan in place to get round it.....I honestly would be surprised if suddenly these huge banks couldn't operate.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			He had the complete backing of all the EU countries to negotiate o their behalf after they had an agreed strategy.  Something we struggled to do. And I really hope that after all this your main take is not that Barnier is the main bad guy here.
		
Click to expand...

I totally get that, but the deal he negotiated after the backing of the EU took 20 minutes to ratify. It has taken 6 months of turmoil in this country to get no where. As a negotiator, his stance has not moved one bit. So how is he negotiating. The bit where MPs should bend and sway to get a deal done does not end at the Dover straits. That bending and swaying should also be happening in Brussels. My main grief is this. We as a nation keep pointing the finger at the incompetence that is the HOP. Yet the deal is  supposed to be beneficial to both the EU and the UK. Yet Nothing has changed in Brussels. So yes without hindsight he could and should of been better. 
I will ask myself one question, Has Barnier negotiated a good deal getting a No Deal.


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			...
I'm sure there was a pretty bright capable team of civil servants doing the donkey work in the negotiations anyway and they came up with the best they could after *May's red lines were exposed as fantasy*.
		
Click to expand...

Seems to me that her Red Lines are quite sensible definitions of boundaries! While not achievable/relevant for the WA negotiation, they certainly seem to define what 'Leave the EU' means in practice!


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			you may well be right, I cant say for sure but we "deal" with 3-4 different Barclays entities, 2 of those are not UK based so I suspect they'd have a plan in place to get round it.....I honestly would be surprised if suddenly these huge banks couldn't operate.
		
Click to expand...

Of course they'll be able to operate! They are not likely to stop operating - as it's profitable to do so! And, in reality, part of their business is actually providing exactly the expertise they need to do so for their existing clients!

The question I'm asking is whether (and by how much) it will cost 'UK Ltd'!


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			And why is it all negative about trade? Jesus H, most of our companies are owned by the rest of Europe so any delay in product at the ports would hit their production and therefore profits. So that's just not going to happen is it. Think about it.
		
Click to expand...

To continue the (sac)religious approach to discussion.....John 11:35!


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## User62651 (Apr 2, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Honest question here as I have missed this point. Can someone tell me what the DUP actually want. They do not want the May deal, they do not want any of the options that have been put forward for votes and have voted against everything. Do they want no deal, no brexit, I honestly cannot recall reading what they do want, only what they do not want.
		
Click to expand...

DUP have complete indifference to Brexit, they don't care about Brexit, their constituents voted heavily remain. All they care about is the UK Union and being a full part of the UK. Any moves they are or are not making is to defend the UK union and their place in it. End of.
They were offered a confidence and supply deal by the Govt in exchange for votes and a lot of money. They've taken the money but haven't quite supplied the votes! There were no other groups of MPs that May could offer that C+S deal to in 2017 - Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid, Sinn Fein would have all told her no.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I totally get that, but the deal he negotiated after the backing of the EU took 20 minutes to ratify. It has taken 6 months of turmoil in this country to get no where. As a negotiator, his stance has not moved one bit. So how is he negotiating. The bit where MPs should bend and sway to get a deal done does not end at the Dover straits. That bending and swaying should also be happening in Brussels. My main grief is this. We as a nation keep pointing the finger at the incompetence that is the HOP. Yet the deal is  supposed to be beneficial to both the EU and the UK. Yet Nothing has changed in Brussels. So yes without hindsight he could and should of been better.
I will ask myself one question, Has Barnier negotiated a good deal getting a No Deal.
		
Click to expand...

Upto now Iâ€™d possibly argue he has played a blinder, everyday we stay in and ask for extensions etc, they keep getting money from us.
Then in a no deal scenario, any aspects of Mayâ€™s bad deal we want they can increase the price on.
The fallout is going to go both ways, but itâ€™s still 27 v 1 at the moment.


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			For the first time, I never knew the leave campaign promised a deal. But with all the crap going off, am not sure how they could of got one. To simplify things. It now seems that the political party's are voting on proposals that have not been accepted by the EU. Any proposal that hypothetically could get voted through could well be knocked back by the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Ah! Reality strikes!!


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## Kellfire (Apr 2, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			DUP have complete indifference to Brexit, they don't care about Brexit, their constituents voted heavily remain. All they care about is the UK Union and being a full part of the UK. Any moves they are or are not making is to defend the UK union and their place in it. End of.
They were offered a confidence and supply deal by the Govt in exchange for votes and a lot of money. They've taken the money but haven't quite supplied the votes! There were no other groups of MPs that May could offer that C+S deal to in 2017 - Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid, Sinn Fein would have all told her no.
		
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Iâ€™d imagine the type of troglodytes who vote DUP compromised the bulk of those who also voted to leave the EU in Northern Ireland and the DUP care very little about governing for anyone but those who are ideologically aligned with them.


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## IanM (Apr 2, 2019)

The only think the post referendum period has proved, is that the EU took charge several years ago while folk were watching Reality Telly!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			At least reference your sources  

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1052472392545579008

Click to expand...

Mine was the Scottish version, yours must have allowed for London Weighting.


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## adam6177 (Apr 2, 2019)

Maggie Thatcher 1990-2(ish) with her thoughts on the Euro and the EU.  Scary how accurate her thoughts were.


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## IanM (Apr 2, 2019)

...and Peter Shaw's in the 1970s too.... spot on.... Common Market??  Just the con that was a stepping stone to the fully Federal Europe.

Who says so? ... Barnier and Tusk...often.   (and no, they don't call it a con, just a milestone)


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I totally get that, but the deal he negotiated after the backing of the EU took 20 minutes to ratify. *It has taken 6 months of turmoil in this country to get no where. As a negotiator, his stance has not moved one bit. So how is he negotiating. The bit where MPs should bend and sway to get a deal done does not end at the Dover straits*. That bending and swaying should also be happening in Brussels. My main grief is this. We as a nation keep pointing the finger at the incompetence that is the HOP. Yet the deal is  supposed to be beneficial to both the EU and the UK. Yet Nothing has changed in Brussels. So yes without hindsight he could and should of been better.
I will ask myself one question, Has Barnier negotiated a good deal getting a No Deal.
		
Click to expand...

As was pointed in in a rather good article someone linked to on here the other day, the EU have treated this mostly as a process and started planning for it straight away.  They and we knew what the rules were for being in the EU and they have just stuck to those.  We on the other hand went into total turmoil as soon as the result came out, PMs resigning, votes of no confidence in the opposition.  Since they we have mostly treated it as a political football, bending to the needs of the factions of the Tory party to keep the party together, Corbyn using it to try and force an election etc etc,  when it is clear that there is not political alignment in this country. 

The EU have compromised on TMays deal, but of course that was never going to be enough for some of the hard liners so it is portrayed as the EU not budging, when they have. Recently they practically told us to go away again and granted a further extension to prevent us going out accidentally with a no deal, but we don't seem to have learned.  If you know what your position is and have an agreed strategy then you can get things agreed pretty quickly. If you don't well, I present exhibit A my lud, the last 3 years.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So @*oletwinofficial* and @*YvetteCooperMP* have - at last some would say - organised a genuine moment of Brexit truth, with a bill they are laying, the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.5) Bill, that would compel the PM to sue the EU for another Brexit postponement. It would be...

the definitive castration of this government, if passed by MPs and Lords. But time really tight for it actually to work, because there would be literally no time for the PM to decide on a delay, work out what it's for, and brief @*eucopresident* so that he can sound out EU...

leaders ahead of the emergency council on 10 April. It is all very well for MPs and Lords to say they want a postponement, but why on earth should EU leaders agree if there is literally no sense of what the UK actually wants?
		
Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1113047756355010565


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## IanM (Apr 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			If you know what your position is and have an agreed strategy then you can get things agreed pretty quickly. If you don't well, I present exhibit A my lud, the last 3 years.
		
Click to expand...

Well we agree on that, but we differ on me thinking that the UK PM has been completely clear on what path we take, and I'd be really suprised if the EU are not behind her.

They need it to look like the UK people want to stay in.... if reports of loo roll shortages (etc) don't work, frustrate the life out of them with the exit process... 

Exhibit B m'lud,  - people in the media brand _Brexit_ as the shambolic process, not the actual state of the UK "out of the EU"   Quite specific, Comms 101 -


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			He had the complete backing of all the EU countries to negotiate o their behalf after they had an agreed strategy.  Something we struggled to do. And I really hope that after all this your main take is not that Barnier is the main bad guy here.
		
Click to expand...

You are not wrong there. Imagine the negotiating position the UK would be in if all of parliament were backing them.  The current situation is a complete farce and has no chance of reaching a win/win solution. 

And where are the Clowns
Quick send in the Clowns
Dont bother
They're here.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are not wrong there. Imagine the negotiating position the UK would be in if all of parliament were backing them.  The current situation is a complete farce and has no chance of reaching a win/win solution.

And where are the Clowns
Quick send in the Clowns
Dont bother
They're here.
		
Click to expand...

Imagine the negotiating position TM would of been in if sheâ€™d of talked to parliament, or even some of them or even just a few or even her own party.............


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## Kellfire (Apr 2, 2019)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-theresa-may-vote-cabinet-civil-service-mark-sedwill-a8850531.html

Brexit means Brexit. And possible recession and cost hikes to eat.


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## IanM (Apr 2, 2019)

Kellfire said:



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-theresa-may-vote-cabinet-civil-service-mark-sedwill-a8850531.html

Brexit means Brexit. And possible recession and cost hikes to eat.
		
Click to expand...

What you mean like the immediate recession etc  that would follow the day after the Referendum?  What happened to that?  (shame the original thread has gone)

Civil Service?  Ay up @PieMan , did you get that email yesterday?  Made me smile!!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Imagine the negotiating position TM would of been in if sheâ€™d of talked to parliament, or even some of them or even just a few or even her own party.............
		
Click to expand...

But there is no consensus of opinion so what good would it do.  They can't even agree on anything  after all these indicitative votes.


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## PieMan (Apr 2, 2019)

IanM said:



			Civil Service?  Ay up Pieman, did you get that email yesterday?  Made me smile!!
		
Click to expand...

Yep sure did Ian!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But there is no consensus of opinion so what good would it do.  They can't even agree on anything  after all these indicitative votes.
		
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Thereâ€™s no consensus now, there might of been 2 years ago before she got herself in this mess. She never tried!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

Kellfire said:



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-theresa-may-vote-cabinet-civil-service-mark-sedwill-a8850531.html

Brexit means Brexit. And possible recession and cost hikes to eat.
		
Click to expand...

Its more of the Project Fear. How would leaving the EU affect policing on our streets, there have been a number of reports indicating that with lower tarrifs food prices could be lower (unless you are desperate for a lettuce ðŸ˜‰)   He also seems to be at odds with the Bank Of England who still expect we would get positive growth.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thereâ€™s no consensus now, there might of been 2 years ago before she got herself in this mes. She never tried!
		
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I  cant see how it would be any different.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I  ant see how it would be any different.
		
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Thatâ€™s because you wonâ€™t or canâ€™t see TM is responsible for this mess.


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s because you wonâ€™t or canâ€™t see TM is responsible for this mess.
		
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She may be responsible for quite a lot of it. But for me, the main finger of blame should be pointed straight at those on the Vote Leave side who persuaded everyone that we'd be leaving with a great deal, the greatest deal ever negotiated. 

We'd hold all the cards, the German car manufacturers and French cheese and wine makers would force the EU to give us the greatest deal since records began. There'd be nothing but sunlit uplands and God save the Queen. 

People believed it, and voted accordingly, then all those prominent Leavers slunk away, waiting for the truth to hit the fan. Knowing that TM was in an absolute No Win situation. 

Once she's ousted, then watch them come slinking back in. Pretending that they had nothing to do with the mess. 

This shitshow belongs firmly to Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Banks, Wigmore, Baker etc. They own it.


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## jp5 (Apr 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I totally get that, but the deal he negotiated after the backing of the EU took 20 minutes to ratify. It has taken 6 months of turmoil in this country to get no where. As a negotiator, his stance has not moved one bit. So how is he negotiating. The bit where MPs should bend and sway to get a deal done does not end at the Dover straits. That bending and swaying should also be happening in Brussels. My main grief is this. We as a nation keep pointing the finger at the incompetence that is the HOP. Yet the deal is  supposed to be beneficial to both the EU and the UK. Yet Nothing has changed in Brussels. So yes without hindsight he could and should of been better.
I will ask myself one question, Has Barnier negotiated a good deal getting a No Deal.
		
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Ask yourself this - why has Barnier done such a good job negotiating on behalf of 27 countries? Because he knows what they want. Why have our negotiators done such a terrible job? Because we as a country triggered article 50 before deciding what it was we actually want.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 2, 2019)

Kellfire said:



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-theresa-may-vote-cabinet-civil-service-mark-sedwill-a8850531.html

Brexit means Brexit. And possible recession and cost hikes to eat.
		
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Starting to get beyond silly now,
May's no deal Brexit is likely to lead to a united Ireland an independent Scotland and civil disorder in England and Wales.
But hey ho the Tories will still remain in power of what is left.


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## IanM (Apr 2, 2019)

Doon - May has never wanted a no deal Brexit...ever. 

And, JP5, Yes...they NEED one of the (very) few net contributors to stay in and need to scare others out of leaving.

Easy peasy, especially as the Federalist MPs are keen to take no deal out of the equation.  Who "negotiates" and removes the "walk away" option.  Someone who expects "not" to leave, that's who.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Ask yourself this - why has Barnier done such a good job negotiating on behalf of 27 countries? Because he knows what they want. Why have our negotiators done such a terrible job? Because we as a country triggered article 50 before deciding what it was we actually want.
		
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But what they want and what they get are two different things. What this country actually wanted was out. Dont think the people complicated matter. People in the HOP from All sides did that. â˜¹ï¸


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			She may be responsible for quite a lot of it. But for me, the main finger of blame should be pointed straight at those on the Vote Leave side who persuaded everyone that we'd be leaving with a great deal, the greatest deal ever negotiated. 

We'd hold all the cards, the German car manufacturers and French cheese and wine makers would force the EU to give us the greatest deal since records began. There'd be nothing but sunlit uplands and God save the Queen. 

People believed it, and voted accordingly, then all those prominent Leavers slunk away, waiting for the truth to hit the fan. Knowing that TM was in an absolute No Win situation. 

Once she's ousted, then watch them come slinking back in. Pretending that they had nothing to do with the mess. 

This shitshow belongs firmly to Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Banks, Wigmore, Baker etc. They own it.
		
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I understand that's how you see things but I fail to see how you can believe the reason most of us voted to leave was due to what Bojo or others were saying. if I were to suggest the reason you voted to remain was influenced by the silly apocalyptic post vote projections Osborne, Cameron and their mates were banding around then I would in my opinion be insulting your intelligence.   I would hope you might give us the same considerations.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s because you wonâ€™t or canâ€™t see TM is responsible for this mess.
		
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I don't understand why you say that. I have openly criticised her deal and the way she has negotiated it.  In saying this I have also explained how I also blame many MPs for putting their own interests and opinions before the democratic instruction they asked us for.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 2, 2019)

Boles says the PM has 'mismanaged and misunderstood' Brexit by only trying please the Tory party, never trying to construct a plan for the whole country, but party is  gripped in combination of 'cowardice' from Remainers and 'dogma' from the Brexiteers that is 'not pretty' 
2. He says maybe 'inevitable' that he'd end up leaving party, but that it was 'profoundly depressing' last night, when ministers in govt who'd promised they'd back his compromise plan, failed to vote that way in the end 
3. Boles questions whether all politics heading for a bigger shakeup as the 'meteor' of Brexit has smashed everything up - warns that Tories might be heading for more than a decade in opposition to recover because it 'doesn't really exist anymore' 
4. While Cabinet still stuck inside No 10, Boles condemns them, saying they have been 'cowardly, instead of brave', and 'too selfish' - and that 'no one in Cabinet now or since 2017 has earned the right to lead the country' 
5. Last thought for now - full story + clips up as soon as we can - but Boles admits Remainers 'missed the boat' when others like @*Anna_Soubry* were arguing months ago for move to a softer Brexit - and as a group they've been slow to come together around an alternative plan


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## Kellfire (Apr 2, 2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...t-sabotage-plot?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_WhatsApp

Project fear? Yea. Ok.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 2, 2019)

IanM said:



			Doon - May has never wanted a no deal Brexit...ever.
		
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So why not agree that no deal is off the table. Why threaten to use it.
She is beginning to look/sound like that Knight in Monty Python who keeps losing limbs.


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I understand that's how you see things but I fail to see how you can believe the reason most of us voted to leave was due to what Bojo or others were saying. if I were to suggest the reason you voted to remain was influenced by the silly apocalyptic post vote projections Osborne, Cameron and their mates were banding around then I would in my opinion be insulting your intelligence.   I would hope you might give us the same considerations.
		
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I do believe that a significant number of people voted Leave because they were promised a Deal. Not all though. A minority are "Thick Racists", as evidenced last week. A signigicant number took the time to educate themselves and voted accordingly. 
Hope that helps


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Boles says the PM has 'mismanaged and misunderstood' Brexit by only trying please the Tory party, never trying to construct a plan for the whole country, but party is  gripped in combination of 'cowardice' from Remainers and 'dogma' from the Brexiteers that is 'not pretty' 
2. He says maybe 'inevitable' that he'd end up leaving party, but that it was 'profoundly depressing' last night, when ministers in govt who'd promised they'd back his compromise plan, failed to vote that way in the end 
3. Boles questions whether all politics heading for a bigger shakeup as the 'meteor' of Brexit has smashed everything up - warns that Tories might be heading for more than a decade in opposition to recover because it 'doesn't really exist anymore' 
4. While Cabinet still stuck inside No 10, Boles condemns them, saying they have been 'cowardly, instead of brave', and 'too selfish' - and that 'no one in Cabinet now or since 2017 has earned the right to lead the country' 
5. Last thought for now - full story + clips up as soon as we can - but Boles admits Remainers 'missed the boat' when others like @*Anna_Soubry* were arguing months ago for move to a softer Brexit - and as a group they've been slow to come together around an alternative plan
		
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That all smacks of someone being petulant due to not getting their own way.  How does he think 17.4 million leave voters feel.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I do believe that a significant number of people voted Leave because they were promised a Deal. Not all though. A minority are "Thick Racists", as evidenced last week. A signigicant number took the time to educate themselves and voted accordingly. 
Hope that helps
		
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A number of people voted remain because they had been scared by the rantings of those I mentioned earlier (I live with someone who did) Some Leavers are quite probably antisemitic thick racists as evidenced recently, others as you say took time to educate themselves. It's just the way it is.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2019)

So anything new ? Is it still looking like a long delay for Brexit then ?


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			A number of people voted remain because they had been scared by the rantings of those I mentioned earlier (I live with someone who did) Some Leavers are quite probably antisemitic thick racists as evidenced recently, others as you say took time to educate themselves. It's just the way it is.
		
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You may have noticed that I didn't blame the people who voted. I blamed the people who fed them excrement from the start.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			She may be responsible for quite a lot of it. But for me, the main finger of blame should be pointed straight at those on the Vote Leave side who persuaded everyone that we'd be leaving with a great deal, the greatest deal ever negotiated.

We'd hold all the cards, the German car manufacturers and French cheese and wine makers would force the EU to give us the greatest deal since records began. There'd be nothing but sunlit uplands and God save the Queen.

People believed it, and voted accordingly, then all those prominent Leavers slunk away, waiting for the truth to hit the fan. Knowing that TM was in an absolute No Win situation.

Once she's ousted, then watch them come slinking back in. Pretending that they had nothing to do with the mess.

This shitshow belongs firmly to Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Banks, Wigmore, Baker etc. They own it.
		
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I can understand were youâ€™re coming from, but you add Cameron to that list and question why he refused to allow people to plan for a leave vote prior to the referendum.
But then look at TM, she put herself forward for PM, then decided on a GE when she had a bigger majority, then refused to discuss the negotiations with anyone outside her inner circle.
All of this in the full knowledge of what Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Banks, Wigmore, Baker etc were up to, remember she campaigned for remain.
Out of everyone whoâ€™s been involved the ultimately responsibility sits firmly on her shoulders. 

(imo of course )


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			But what they want and what they get are two different things. What this country actually wanted was out. Dont think the people complicated matter. People in the HOP from All sides did that. â˜¹ï¸
		
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It wasnâ€™t a no deal out though Tash!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't understand why you say that. I have openly criticised her deal and the way she has negotiated it.  In saying this I have also explained how I also blame many MPs for putting their own interests and opinions before the democratic instruction they asked us for.
		
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Because you keep going back to the MPâ€™s, you seem to be saying that in the interests of democracy they should accept a bad deal, I believe the last 4 embarrassing months is because some are actually trying to do their job.


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I can understand were youâ€™re coming from, but you add Cameron to that list and question why he refused to allow people to plan for a leave vote prior to the referendum.
But then look at TM, she put herself forward for PM, then decided on a GE when she had a bigger majority, then refused to discuss the negotiations with anyone outside her inner circle.
All of this in the full knowledge of what Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Banks, Wigmore, Baker etc were up to, remember she campaigned for remain.
Out of everyone whoâ€™s been involved the ultimately responsibility sits firmly on her shoulders.

(imo of course )
		
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I think we can both agree that history is not going to be kind to some people. Cameron and May will no doubt get the brunt of that. The rest will depend on the success of Brexit. If it's a failure then I suspect that the likes of Farage will become a historical joke. A clown figure of low repute. Bojo, Gove and R-M along the same lines.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I think we can both agree that history is not going to be kind to some people. Cameron and May will no doubt get the brunt of that. The rest will depend on the success of Brexit. If it's a failure then I suspect that the likes of Farage will become a historical joke. A clown figure of low repute. Bojo, Gove and R-M along the same lines.
		
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Unfortunately as much as I despise Farage, Johnson etc, I would rather hope Brexit is a success for the Country.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 2, 2019)

I think she's just called out corbyn.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I think she's just called out corbyn.
		
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Until we hear the details Iâ€™m still confused:

PM makes offer to Jeremy Corbyn to help 'break the logjam'

May adds: "Today I am taking action to break the logjam."

She says she is "offering to sit down with the Leader of the Opposition" to work together on a Brexit plan.

*But, the PM warns "any plan will have to agree the current withdrawal agreement", as that is the only one that has been negotiated with the EU.*

May continues: "What we need to focus on is our future relationship with the EU."

She says, both she and Jeremy Corbyn need to agree a plan that can be put to the House of Commons for approval.

Bit in bold, Heâ€™s already stated and voted against it, surely she has to try and be realistic or genuine and not just doing it for effect.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because you keep going back to the MPâ€™s, you seem to be saying that in the interests of democracy they should accept a bad deal, I believe the last 4 embarrassing months is because some are actually trying to do their job.
		
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I don't though. I don't want us to accept her deal as it stands. I have explained many times we should have insisted on only agreeing the terms of departure and future trading arrangements together.  The embarrassing situation is due to mps not accepting we voted to leave.  This is true of all the political parties.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47789298

So what chances are this gets through ?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Until we hear the details Iâ€™m still confused:

PM makes offer to Jeremy Corbyn to help 'break the logjam'

May adds: "Today I am taking action to break the logjam."

She says she is "offering to sit down with the Leader of the Opposition" to work together on a Brexit plan.

*But, the PM warns "any plan will have to agree the current withdrawal agreement", as that is the only one that has been negotiated with the EU.*

May continues: "What we need to focus on is our future relationship with the EU."

She says, both she and Jeremy Corbyn need to agree a plan that can be put to the House of Commons for approval.

Bit in bold, Heâ€™s already stated and voted against it, surely she has to try and be realistic or genuine and not just doing it for effect.
		
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We must have either a withdraw agreement or leave without a deal. ALL the current votes are only on the future relationship, things like a customs union are not a WA.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47789298

So what chances are this gets through ?
		
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100% certainty. 
Why would our parliament and civil servants want more work when they have another to do it for them!?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because you keep going back to the MPâ€™s, you seem to be saying that in the interests of democracy they should accept a bad deal, I believe the last 4 embarrassing months is because some are actually trying to do their job.
		
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No, im not saying that.  How many times must i say i dont like her deal. My current preference would be to renegotiate something better or leave now.  What I don't want is us remaining or accepting a customs union type soft Brexit, this is what many MPs are trying to create, if we accept that we just as well stay in.
I hope that explains.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			100% certainty.
Why would our parliament and civil servants want more work when they have another to do it for them!?
		
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Well looks like itâ€™s going to be a delay 

And if there is going to be a law that we donâ€™t leave without a deal , the EU have already offered a deal but the MPâ€™s wonâ€™t vote for it - the options donâ€™t seem to be too many


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I think she's just called out corbyn.
		
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Not really.  She has met him previously very recently and they have very different views on this. It's a meeting she knows will fail. Equally she has met many people recently and paid lip service to all of them. Meet, ignore, meet, ignore.

She seems to like these Presidential style speeches but says very little  in any of them. They are egotistical, nothing more.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

Why didnâ€™t she use that tone and attitude 3 months ago! 
As others have said, JC now gets a chance to step up and act like the statesman he sees himself as, whether he can is another question.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			You may have noticed that I didn't blame the people who voted. I blamed the people who fed them excrement from the start.
		
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Can we agree there were falsehoods fed to both sides of the campaign that influenced some voters.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not really.  She has met him previously very recently and they have very different views on this. It's a meeting she knows will fail. Equally she has met many people recently and paid lip service to all of them. Meet, ignore, meet, ignore.

She seems to like these Presidential style speeches but says very little  in any of them. They are egotistical, nothing more.
		
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Yes, there is normally a question session after.


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Can we agree there were falsehoods fed to both sides of the campaign that influenced some voters.
		
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Yes, but only one sides lies got us in the current mess. Can we agree on that?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 2, 2019)

But when, last week, the WA was offered to the House in a form that both Corbyn and Starmer had previously said was acceptable (without involving the post-withdrawal relationship) Labour whipped against it. 

Why, if not to try and score a party political point?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Yes, but only one sides lies got us in the current mess. Can we agree on that?
		
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Absolutely not. If Camo et al had not been so Vesipherous with their project fear lies then leave would have had a much bigger majority and we wouldn't be in this mess.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I think we can both agree that history is not going to be kind to some people. Cameron and May will no doubt get the brunt of that. The rest will depend on the success of Brexit. If it's a failure then I suspect that the likes of Farage will become a historical joke. A clown figure of low repute. Bojo, Gove and R-M along the same lines.
		
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RM and Bojo are, they have flip flopped and been self serving they are a disgrace.
TM could have gone down in history as being the victim of poor planning but current history takes that off the table.


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## IainP (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Yes, but only one sides lies got us in the current mess. Can we agree on that?
		
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Could apply to so many posts on this thread, from any point of view 





ðŸ™‚ðŸ˜‰


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## harpo_72 (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolutely not. If Camo et al had not been so Vesipherous with their project fear lies then leave would have had a much bigger majority and we wouldn't be in this mess.
		
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Bit of an exaggeration that really


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## harpo_72 (Apr 2, 2019)

IainP said:



			Could apply to so many posts on this thread, from any point of view





ðŸ™‚ðŸ˜‰
		
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Not vote Tory as they have too many right wing infiltrators ? Donâ€™t vote labour because they donâ€™t know if they want a sh@t or a haircut...? Such choice ! Hence my despair at a general election, it will be the same offering, there have not been many deselections.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Bit of an exaggeration that really
		
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Bit like the leave campaign ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			But when, last week, the WA was offered to the House in a form that both Corbyn and Starmer had previously said was acceptable (without involving the post-withdrawal relationship) Labour whipped against it.

Why, if not to try and score a party political point?
		
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Because it was a seen by them and others as a bad deal and gave little hope for the future, now a possible future customs union etc could be involved in future discussions it gives TM a way forward, also could be a poison chalice for them both, if they donâ€™t work it out it means the blame can be shared rather than thrown in a single direction.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Bit of an exaggeration that really
		
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Massively .. if the remain campaign hadnâ€™t banged on about project fear I think they would have won. This country is brilliant at going against the grain just to be stubborn and be like â€œcanâ€™t tell us whatâ€™s bestâ€

Project fear will have pushed voters into protest votes and encouraged more people to vote against it who may not have even voted


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because it was a seen by them and others as a bad deal and gave little hope for the future, now a possible future customs union etc could be involved in future discussions it gives TM a way forward, also could be a poison chalice for them both, if they donâ€™t work it out it means the blame can be shared rather than thrown in a single direction.
		
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But the vote on Friday had nothing to do with the post WA terms.


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolutely not. If Camo et al had not been so Vesipherous with their project fear lies then leave would have had a much bigger majority and we wouldn't be in this mess.
		
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Sorry Bri, but that is absolute nonsense. If The many aspects of the Leave campaign hadn't lied through their teeth then Leave wouldn't have won. 
Both sides lied, but bearing in mind Leave won, then we can only really blame the Leave lies for the current predicament. It's ridiculous to suggest that the Remain campaign before the Referendum is somehow at fault in any way for the current failure of the Brexit process.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			But the vote on Friday had nothing to do with the post WA terms.
		
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Exactly, so her current position was nobody else could be involved and it was her way or the highway.
You could look at it cynically and suggest she could promise him all sorts of future discussions with the EU, get the deal through, resign as PM, then the next one ignores Corbyn as they themselves didnâ€™t agree to their deal.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry Bri, but that is absolute nonsense. If The many aspects of the Leave campaign hadn't lied through their teeth then Leave wouldn't have won.
Both sides lied, but bearing in mind Leave won, then we can only really blame the Leave lies for the current predicament. It's ridiculous to suggest that the Remain campaign before the Referendum is somehow at fault in any way for the current failure of the Brexit process.
		
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Its not absolute nonsense.  You may disagree but its a point of view and one you are of course free to counter. I wouldnt suggest your view is complete rubbish just because I disagree with it though.

IMO  the current malaise is due to the country having a mainly leave voting public and mainly remain parliament. I can only reiterate that we didnt vote based on Boris and his bus.


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry Bri, but that is absolute nonsense. If The many aspects of the Leave campaign hadn't lied through their teeth then Leave wouldn't have won.
Both sides lied, but bearing in mind Leave won, then we can only really blame the Leave lies for the current predicament. It's ridiculous to suggest that the Remain campaign before the Referendum is somehow at fault in any way for the current failure of the Brexit process.
		
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I'd say the mess the UK is in is down to the way the Tory party has conducted itself since the vote. However, I do lay some of the blame for Remain losing on the lies from George Osbourne et al. His claims of 800,000 unemployed straight after the vote and households losing Â£4200 in the first year after the vote were proven to be lies. When his own Treasury dept and a Commons Select committee called him out for lying... Once he was proven to have lied those on the fence probably wondered why he needed to lie. Was he hiding how good Leave might be? 

Rather than bad mouth Leave, which did get people's backs up, why didn't Remain put out a list of EU achievements?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not absolute nonsense.  You may disagree but its a point of view and one you are of course free to counter. I wouldnt suggest your view is complete rubbish just because I disagree with it though.

IMO  the current malaise is due to the country having a mainly leave voting public and mainly remain parliament. I can only reiterate that we didnt vote based on Boris and his bus.
		
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Is it not about 30 something % of the country that actually voted to leave - so to say â€œ country is mainly leave vote public â€œ is not really correct is it 

And as for the reason why people voted leave - surely you canâ€™t state what other peopleâ€™s reasons are - only state what yours were and any other that have stated their reasons. Already been seen that people did vote because of the message on that bus - so again you canâ€™t state â€œweâ€ - only â€œyouâ€ 
ðŸ‘


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not absolute nonsense.  You may disagree but its a point of view and one you are of course free to counter. I wouldnt suggest your view is complete rubbish just because I disagree with it though.

IMO  the current malaise is due to the country having a mainly leave voting public and mainly remain parliament. I can only reiterate that we didnt vote based on Boris and his bus.
		
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Sorry Bri, but IMO it's nonsense. 
And you have absolutely no idea what the current state of mind is in the general public. None of us do. The polls suggest you're wrong but they are an average indicator at best.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'd say the mess the UK is in is down to the way the Tory party has conducted itself since the vote. However, I do lay some of the blame for Remain losing on the lies from George Osbourne et al. His claims of 800,000 unemployed straight after the vote and households losing Â£4200 in the first year after the vote were proven to be lies. When his own Treasury dept and a Commons Select committee called him out for lying... Once he was proven to have lied those on the fence probably wondered why he needed to lie. Was he hiding how good Leave might be?

Rather than bad mouth Leave, which did get people's backs up, why didn't Remain put out a list of EU achievements?
		
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Cameron was suggesting Leaving would produce refugee camps in Kent and a third world war. Both sides tried it on and I suspect the lies turned off as many voters as they turned on.


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'd say the mess the UK is in is down to the way the Tory party has conducted itself since the vote. However, I do lay some of the blame for Remain losing on the lies from George Osbourne et al. His claims of 800,000 unemployed straight after the vote and households losing Â£4200 in the first year after the vote were proven to be lies. When his own Treasury dept and a Commons Select committee called him out for lying... Once he was proven to have lied those on the fence probably wondered why he needed to lie. Was he hiding how good Leave might be?

Rather than bad mouth Leave, which did get people's backs up, why didn't Remain put out a list of EU achievements?
		
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No one is arguing about why they lost. Only about the expectation the Public had once the vote was won. They/we expected what the "experts" told us would happen. If they'd campaigned truthfully, told us that the only sure way to Leave was with No Deal then they may still have won, and we'd have spent the last 2+ years preparing ourselves for our exit. We'd have been ready for it.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it not about 30 something % of the country that actually voted to leave - so to say â€œ country is mainly leave vote public â€œ is not really correct is it

And as for the reason why people voted leave - surely you canâ€™t state what other peopleâ€™s reasons are - only state what yours were and any other that have stated their reasons. Already been seen that people did vote because of the message on that bus - so again you canâ€™t state â€œweâ€ - only â€œyouâ€
ðŸ‘
		
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30% of the population?   What's that got to do with anything, its flawed information and exactly what politicans were doing.  How do you know the voting intentions of people that never voted.  The referendum was the biggest turn out for a national vote ever!

Regarding my comments on what other peoples  views were, I used that comment to counter what someone else posted with regard to Leave voters.  Was that poster also wrong and if so why are you not commenting on that post.  Please understand the conversation before jumping in.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 2, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Massively .. if the remain campaign hadnâ€™t banged on about project fear I think they would have won. This country is brilliant at going against the grain just to be stubborn and be like â€œcanâ€™t tell us whatâ€™s bestâ€

Project fear will have pushed voters into protest votes and encouraged more people to vote against it who may not have even voted
		
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Besides my personal opinions. When that leaflet came through my door about the referendum. I immediately thought if the government want me to vote to stay, then staying canâ€™t be a good thing.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry Bri, but IMO it's nonsense.
And you have absolutely no idea what the current state of mind is in the general public. None of us do. The polls suggest you're wrong but they are an average indicator at best.
		
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OK, in that case I wont discuss this further with you.


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it not about 30 something % of the country that actually voted to leave - so to say â€œ country is mainly leave vote public â€œ is not really correct is it

And as for the reason why people voted leave - surely you canâ€™t state what other peopleâ€™s reasons are - only state what yours were and any other that have stated their reasons. Already been seen that people did vote because of the message on that bus - so again you canâ€™t state â€œweâ€ - only â€œyouâ€
ðŸ‘
		
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Jeez H!! do we have to do that stupid spin on numbers again, again, again....surely we're more grown up and informed now and understand just how stupid that looks. Please don't go down the route Hogie did by including newborn babies in that number, which is basically what you have done. No pun intended but its so infantile.

Who was it that made the case a week or so back on us being more informed(PHIL)?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, in that case I wont discuss this further with you.
		
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Fingers in your ears again? (Or more covering your eyes) must be great in your edited world were you see no one disagreeing with you.


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, in that case I wont discuss this further with you.
		
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That's your choice of course ðŸ‘


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, in that case I wont discuss this further with you.
		
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Youâ€™re running out of people to have a discussion with!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			30% of the people?   What's that got to do with anything, its flawed information and exactly what politicans were doing.  How do you know the voting intentions of people that never voted.  The referendum was the biggest turn out for a national vote ever!
		
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I donâ€™t know how they would have voted just as much as you donâ€™t - doesnâ€™t matter if it was the biggest - it still wasnâ€™t 100% - it was 72% that voted. 

17 mil of 40 mil UK nationals voted to leave the EU 

So you canâ€™t state that we are a mainly leave voting public when itâ€™s not factually correct - surely itâ€™s just best to deal with facts 




			Regarding my views on what other peoples  views were, I used that comment to counter what someone else posted with regard to Leave voters.  Was that poster also wrong and if so why are you not commenting on that post.  Please understand the conversation before jumping in.
		
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You have jumped in many times on peopleâ€™s generic comments - you used to do it regularly to Hogan and plenty times telling people not to speak for others 

You are as guilty as others in regards generic statements when itâ€™s just your opinion and not that of others. Same goes with anyone - I wonâ€™t suggest why others voted to stay in the EU because I donâ€™t know , I only know how I voted.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Jeez H!! do we have to do that stupid spin on numbers again, again, again....surely we're more grown up and informed now and understand just how stupid that looks. Please don't go down the route Hogie did by including newborn babies in that number, which is basically what you have done. No pun intended but its so infantile.

Who was it that made the case a week or so back on us being more informed(PHIL)?
		
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72 % of the â€œvotingâ€â€™public voted in the referendum so itâ€™s not right to post statements that we are in a mainly leave voting public . When itâ€™s not factually correct surely ?

The majority of the voting public didnâ€™t vote to leave - the majority of people who did vote voted to leave - subtle difference is it not ?ðŸ˜‰

And nothing about newborn babies. ðŸ˜€


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## Dando (Apr 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Jeez H!! do we have to do that stupid spin on numbers again, again, again....surely we're more grown up and informed now and understand just how stupid that looks. Please don't go down the route Hogie did by including newborn babies in that number, which is basically what you have done. No pun intended but its so infantile.

Who was it that made the case a week or so back on us being more informed(PHIL)?
		
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Iâ€™m sure someone will be along soon and mention the bus again


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I donâ€™t know how they would have voted just as much as you donâ€™t - doesnâ€™t matter if it was the biggest - it still wasnâ€™t 100% - it was 72% that voted.

17 mil of 40 mil UK nationals voted to leave the EU

So you canâ€™t state that we are a mainly leave voting public when itâ€™s not factually correct - surely itâ€™s just best to deal with facts



You have jumped in many times on peopleâ€™s generic comments - you used to do it regularly to Hogan and plenty times telling people not to speak for others

You are as guilty as others in regards generic statements when itâ€™s just your opinion and not that of others. Same goes with anyone - I wonâ€™t suggest why others voted to stay in the EU because I donâ€™t know , I only know how I voted.
		
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Sorry but your thinking is flawed. Its pointless to prevaricate over the voting intentions of non voters or those not entitled.   Its not me making a point about these people, its you.

I am also unclear why you are  going on about generic comments, I would suggest thats exactly what you are posting here.

I am not interested in your attempt to create an argument, I am aware of why you are doing it but as far as I'm concerned this matter is finished with you as you are adding nothing constructive.


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			72 % of the â€œvotingâ€â€™public voted in the referendum so itâ€™s not right to post statements that we are in a mainly leave voting public . When itâ€™s not factually correct surely ?

The majority of the voting public didnâ€™t vote to leave - the majority of people who did vote voted to leave - subtle difference is it not ?

And nothing about newborn babies.
		
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Spin it whichever way you want, the reality is more people voted Leave than Remain. What the political position is of the rest is pure speculation on your part to try and weight a flawed argument. Is that really an intelligent argument on your part... that most people didn't vote Leave... Think about it. Most people didn't vote Tory. You could go on and on with stupid arguments like that. I genuinely can't believe that you're raising a point like this... its... its just thick.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re running out of people to have a discussion with! 

Click to expand...

Maybe, if that's how it pans out. But its only for the current thread in discussion. ðŸ‘


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## adam6177 (Apr 2, 2019)

I wonder how different things would be now if the last 2.5 years worth of time and energy has been put into making the vote to leave a success, rather than fighting it tooth and nail to the very end.

For me that is where the fault lays. Starting from the very top to the very "bottom", we've done our best to shoot ourselves in the foot.


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## IainP (Apr 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			72 % of the â€œvotingâ€â€™public voted in the referendum so itâ€™s not right to post statements that we are in a mainly leave voting public . When itâ€™s not factually correct surely ?

The majority of the voting public didnâ€™t vote to leave - the majority of people who did vote voted to leave - subtle difference is it not ?ðŸ˜‰

And nothing about newborn babies. ðŸ˜€
		
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I'll just comment the language.
I think if you had used something like "people eliable to vote ", then you would have a decent point. 
English is often about context, you have interpreted one way. One could equally counter that "voting public" referred to those who actually voted (with the referendum being a topic on this thread).
All about interpretation.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That's your choice of course ðŸ‘
		
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Of course ðŸ‘


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I wonder how different things would be now if the last 2.5 years worth of time and energy has been put into making the vote to leave a success, rather than fighting it tooth and nail to the very end.

For me that is where the fault lays. Starting from the very top to the very "bottom", we've done our best to shoot ourselves in the foot.
		
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Which would've happened if we'd decided what Brexit looked like before invoking Art 50.


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## Mudball (Apr 2, 2019)

To break the narrative that Leavers are thick Rs.. this shows they are technical too.. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1112637637582602241


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## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2019)

Mudball said:



			To break the narrative that Leavers are thick Rs.. this shows they are technical too..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1112637637582602241

Click to expand...

Obviously not or they would have known.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry Bri, but IMO it's nonsense.
And you have absolutely no idea what the current state of mind is in the general public. None of us do. *The polls suggest you're wrong* but they are an average indicator at best.
		
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Same polls that suggested Remain would romp home in 2016?  As you say, an average indicator at best.


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## Mudball (Apr 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Obviously not or they would have known.
		
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Looks like they can do some scaletrics 

On a more pertinent one.. good analysis from the FT
https://www.ft.com/content/4bad9a24-556c-11e9-91f9-b6515a54c5b1


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## bluewolf (Apr 2, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Same polls that suggested Remain would romp home in 2016?  As you say, an average indicator at best.
		
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So you're agreeing with me? ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Looks like they can do some scaletrics

On a more pertinent one.. good analysis from the FT
https://www.ft.com/content/4bad9a24-556c-11e9-91f9-b6515a54c5b1

Click to expand...

Think you have to subscribe to see it.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2019)

Sounds like tmay is now trying to get Labour on board to get an agreement passed. Probably will mean a softer brexit, Tory party may tear themselves apart and Corbyn will be happier than Boris. 

Maybe there is a happy ending after all. ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sounds like tmay is now trying to get Labour on board to get an agreement passed. Probably will mean a softer brexit, Tory party may tear themselves apart and Corbyn will be happier than Boris.

Maybe there is a happy ending after all. ðŸ˜‰
		
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I am not convinced Corbyn wants a soft Brexit. He makes those noises while he hasn't a chance of carrying them out,  I believe what he really wants (based on his previous) is complete control of government so he can implement his ultra left wing policies in place. He wont want the EU influencing his policies.  May could be playing him to expose his true intentions.   Just a theory ðŸ¤”


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am not convinced Corbyn wants a soft Brexit. He makes those noises while he hasn't a chance of carrying them out,  I believe what he really wants (based on his previous) is complete control of government so he can implement his ultra left wing policies in place. He wont want the EU influencing his policies.  May could be playing him to expose his true intentions.   Just a theory ðŸ¤”
		
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Because if your theory is correct, now would be a great time for TM to play games rather sort this mess out.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 2, 2019)

Im  not sure that JC wants any sort of deal, he just wants to try and force a GE.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			So you're agreeing with me? ðŸ˜‰
		
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Would I argue with a man of your calibre...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because if your theory is correct, now would be a great time for TM to play games rather sort this mess out.

Click to expand...

Its a consideration i  came up with, it may or may not be correct.

She may want to draw him in then expose him if he cant commit. This could draw more in towards supporting her deal. 
Just a thought.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am not convinced Corbyn wants a soft Brexit. He makes those noises while he hasn't a chance of carrying them out,  I believe what he really wants (based on his previous) is complete control of government so he can implement his ultra left wing policies in place. He wont want the EU influencing his policies.  *May could be playing him to expose his true intentions. *  Just a theory ðŸ¤”
		
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I'd like to think she's that clever but the current farce would suggest not.


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## GB72 (Apr 2, 2019)

Suspect that all TM needs to do is agree to call a general election once a deal had been passed. She us quitting anyway and it would be 2 fingers up to the ERG who are circling to take power.

There is a deal to be done on a softer Brexit. Suspect europe would jump at it too. Business could also handle a delay with an agreed road map to move forward.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Suspect that all TM needs to do is agree to call a general election once a deal had been passed. She us quitting anyway and it would be 2 fingers up to the ERG who are circling to take power.

There is a deal to be done on a softer Brexit. Suspect europe would jump at it too. Business could also handle a delay with an agreed road map to move forward.
		
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A soft brexit is rubbish. We need to get right out or stay in, half out is not good for anyone.


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## GB72 (Apr 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			A soft brexit is rubbish. We need to get right out or stay in, half out is not good for anyone.
		
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In what way, both CBI and TUC have spoken out against a hard brexit so those representing both business and workers think a softer option is better. Yes, not leaving would be ideal but that is not a real option. Plus this does not have to be a fixed position. Why is it better to try and push over a wall rather than remove it over time, brick by brick


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2019)

GB72 said:



			In what way, both CBI and TUC have spoken out against a hard brexit so those representing both business and workers think a softer option is better. Yes, not leaving would be ideal but that is not a real option. Plus this does not have to be a fixed position. Why is it better to try and push over a wall rather than remove it over time, brick by brick
		
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You know, we had a referendum: da de da da de da.  People voted to leave the EU not partially leave. Staying in a customs union is not leaving da de da we all know that really da de da.  These options are just playing around with ignoring the referendum result, let's just leave or become a broken country that's scared of governing it's self, that lacks confidence and needs a security blanket that saps it's strength.  Da de da, the unions and cbi know best, let's abandon the people's vote. They don't understand how complicated it all is, da de da. That's a funny suit of clothes the King's wearing g today. ðŸ˜Ÿ


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am not convinced Corbyn wants a soft Brexit. He makes those noises while he hasn't a chance of carrying them out,  I believe what he really wants (based on his previous) is complete control of government so he can implement his ultra left wing policies in place. He wont want the EU influencing his policies.  May could be playing him to expose his true intentions.   Just a theory ðŸ¤”
		
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I think this is his chance to not be a dick and agree something with May that will get the support of enough of the Labour Party, as per their key tests of what ever they called them. 

She's tried to get a deal through with the support of the tories and failed, Corbyn's chance now to be seen as someone who can help her get the deal done. 

But he still may be a dick and just play politics with it all.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 3, 2019)

If the leavers were afforded a referendum on how to proceed with leaving. 
How would they vote? Perhaps thatâ€™s what should happen?


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## harpo_72 (Apr 3, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			If the leavers were afforded a referendum on how to proceed with leaving.
How would they vote? Perhaps thatâ€™s what should happen?
		
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Ah a civil war within a civil war, nice!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You know, we had a referendum: da de da da de da.  People voted to leave the EU not partially leave. Staying in a customs union is not leaving da de da we all know that really da de da.  These options are just playing around with ignoring the referendum result, let's just leave or become a broken country that's scared of governing it's self, that lacks confidence and needs a security blanket that saps it's strength.  Da de da, the unions and cbi know best, let's abandon the people's vote. They don't understand how complicated it all is, da de da. That's a funny suit of clothes the King's wearing g today. ðŸ˜Ÿ
		
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WE WERE PROMISED TO LEAVE WITH A DEAL.


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## Crazyface (Apr 3, 2019)

OMG what a bluddy mess. TM is asking JC in for a chat to sort it out.You couldn't script it. THAT JUST WOULDN'T HAPPEN. Yet it is. As I have said,those in power are not connected to the "man in the street" who is screaming "NO DEAL WE DON'T CARE!" I'm done with this now. I e-mailed TM direct last night to say what I wanted to say direct to her so have no desire to follow it anymore. She's lied to us and cannot be trusted now. She's now dancing with the devil and deserves everything she's now gonna get. I hope she ends up in that special place in hell that the EU bloke has got reserved for her.


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## Crazyface (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			WE WERE PROMISED TO LEAVE WITH A DEAL.
		
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Another one that hasn't followed this very closely. 

We were told we would get a good deal, and NO DEAL WAS BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL.


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## Beezerk (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			WE WERE PROMISED TO LEAVE WITH A DEAL.
		
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I honestly donâ€™t recall any of that, it was in or out from what I remember, take control of our borders, laws was the big selling point. Then everyone has become trade experts over the last 12 months, the waters have become so muddied no one knows where they are.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I honestly donâ€™t recall any of that, it was in or out from what I remember, take control of our borders, laws was the big selling point. Then everyone has become trade experts over the last 12 months, the waters have become so muddied no one knows where they are.
		
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## Beezerk (Apr 3, 2019)

Well yeah, one advert Iâ€™ve never even seen before ðŸ˜†


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Well yeah, one advert Iâ€™ve never even seen before ðŸ˜†
		
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Thatâ€™s part of the leave leaflet that was delivered to homes.


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## Beezerk (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s part of the leave leaflet that was delivered to homes.
		
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Went straight into the bin mate, I hate propaganda like that.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 3, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Went straight into the bin mate, I hate propaganda like that.
		
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So how did you make your decision?


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## harpo_72 (Apr 3, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Another one that hasn't followed this very closely.

We were told we would get a good deal, and NO DEAL WAS BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL.
		
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Think we have actually found out that no deal and a bad deal are very similar but work on different levels .. one can cause chaos the other locks you up with no say. 

What has been the major issue is the definition of a good deal. Bearing mind that a good deal for us would be a bad deal for the EU, so compromises all the way ... all a bit bloody obvious really


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## Beezerk (Apr 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So how did you make your decision?
		
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Blindfold and a pen.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			OMG what a bluddy mess. TM is asking JC in for a chat to sort it out.You couldn't script it. THAT JUST WOULDN'T HAPPEN. Yet it is. As I have said,those in power are not connected to the "man in the street" who is screaming "NO DEAL WE DON'T CARE!*"* I'm done with this now. I e-mailed TM direct last night to say what I wanted to say direct to her so have no desire to follow it anymore. *She's lied to us and cannot be trusted now*. She's now dancing with the devil and deserves everything she's now gonna get. I hope she ends up in that special place in hell that the EU bloke has got reserved for her.
		
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You just worked out that as a leaver you've been lied to??? Better late than never I suppose.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 3, 2019)

Oliver Letwin on @*BBCr4today* shows he does not have the first understanding that a customs union with the EU would not be frictionless, and that such would give EU complete control of our trading conditions. Not fit to be an MP, let alone one destroying our constitution.


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## robinthehood (Apr 3, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I honestly donâ€™t recall any of that, it was in or out from what I remember, take control of our borders, laws was the big selling point. Then everyone has become trade experts over the last 12 months, the waters have become so muddied no one knows where they are.
		
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because so many leave campaigners sold so many lies.


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## Slime (Apr 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			A soft brexit is rubbish. We need to get right out or stay in, *half out is not good for anyone*.
		
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A compromise is a total cop-out.
It's not what the people voted for, but that seems to be totally irrelevant these days.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2019)

Slime said:



			A compromise is a total cop-out.
*It's not what the people voted for,* but that seems to be totally irrelevant these days.
		
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The trouble is what (some) people thought they were voting for and what is practically achievable with parliamentary arithmetic seem to be two different things.


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## jp5 (Apr 3, 2019)

Slime said:



			A compromise is a total cop-out.
It's not what the people voted for, but that seems to be totally irrelevant these days.
		
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Half the country voted out, half voted in. I'd say a compromise is what was on the cards all along. Just so happens the compromise is worse than our current arrangement, but there we are.


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## adam6177 (Apr 3, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			The trouble is what (some) people thought they were voting for and what is practically achievable with parliamentary arithmetic seem to be two different things.
		
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Part of the issue around "what people voted for" is that some voted remain because they didn't want their holidays to spain to be compromised. 

As many ignorant people voted leave as voted remain. IMO.


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## DRW (Apr 3, 2019)

I reckon with the amount of man/woman hours put into this thread, we could turn the UK into the powerhouse country of the world if we redirect them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Part of the issue around "what people voted for" is that some voted remain because they didn't want their holidays to spain to be compromised.

As many ignorant people voted leave as voted remain. IMO.
		
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Absolutely agree, but I donâ€™t think itâ€™s any different to any other vote we hold.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 3, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Went straight into the bin mate, I hate propaganda like that.
		
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As daft as it seems, I had made my mind up before any leaflet dropped on the mat. Manifestos are good lies in a fancy Font with the biggest lies in a bold Italic capital letters font.
But I saw a Tory Manifesto yesterday on there pledge re Europe. God all flippin mighty. Today is a million miles away from what there manifesto said.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 3, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Half the country voted out, half voted in. I'd say a compromise is what was on the cards all along. Just so happens the compromise is worse than our current arrangement, but there we are.
		
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If that comment was true then I would agree, but it wasn't half and half was it. However a compromise should be sought. If people are not prepared to learn another dance. Then Brexit the dance floor.


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## adam6177 (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Absolutely agree, but I donâ€™t think itâ€™s any different to any other vote we hold.
		
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couldn't agree more, this is why I think it's a little "pointless" to argue about who voted for which lie sold from which side....because lets be honest, a lot of people who vote are scared of change, dont like change and will therefore vote for the status quo as they want their lives to stay the same....along with those that have no clue and vote whichever way their mates were going to.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2019)

I am always amazed that a few folk on here seem to know exactly why 17 million voters voted leave.
I heard one poor wee soul say he voted leave to give the Tories a scare.
He definitely achieved that.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Part of the issue around "what people voted for" is that some voted remain because they didn't want their holidays to spain to be compromised.

As many ignorant people voted leave as voted remain. IMO.
		
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I was not saying leave voters were all ignorant.  As mentioned above there are stupid people who will vote, always have been and always will be. It's when the information given to people to base that decision on is deliberately manipulated to such an extent that some of it is basic lies it becomes a problem for society.  As inevitably people will feel let down and disenfranchised as I image we will see over the next few weeks, months, years.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am always amazed that a few folk on here seem to know exactly why 17 million voters voted leave.
I heard one poor wee soul say he voted leave to give the Tories a scare.
He definitely achieved that.

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Scare, he's given them a heart attack. ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

What makes me chuckle is re people not knowing what they voted for but now they do. How do they, which liar are they listening to now. The internet is full of clips and manifesto pledges from all parties saying what they would do in the event of leaving the EU, probably from before we even entered the EU. Yet since then we have been lied to from both remain and leave camps re actually what they are doing as against what they said. Some gave the grandest promises possible yet when it came to producing the goods they abandoned ship like shithouse rats.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			couldn't agree more, this is why I think it's a little "pointless" to argue about who voted for which lie sold from which side....because lets be honest, a lot of people who vote are scared of change, dont like change and will therefore vote for the status quo as they want their lives to stay the same....along with those that have no clue and vote whichever way their mates were going to.
		
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So why do people on here keep making definitive statements about what they voted for? Yes or No didnâ€™t and couldnâ€™t cover every scenario, we can say what we as an individual preferred or understood it to of meant to them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am always amazed that a few folk on here seem to know exactly why 17 million voters voted leave.
I heard one poor wee soul say he voted leave to give the Tories a scare.
He definitely achieved that.

Click to expand...

My mother-in-law voted Leave because Cameron voted Remain and even upto yesterday she still says if Cameron had voted Leave sheâ€™d of voted Remain.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			My mother-in-law voted Leave because Cameron voted Remain and even upto yesterday she still says if Cameron had voted Leave sheâ€™d of voted Remain. 

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That's probably one of the more sensible reasons for choosing how to vote.


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## patricks148 (Apr 3, 2019)

is this not just another ploy to deflect the media interest away from TM and her ineptitude, its  now all of a sudden on JK. This has always been about the Tories making a total balls up and putting their party before the Country...... again


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## Mudball (Apr 3, 2019)

How TM must have hope that Andrea L had won the leadership vote....  Over the last few weeks Andrea keeps going down the pan in my books.   Had not seen this video earlier of her vision of where we would be..  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1112894400315748354
She does live in cloud cuckooland and a Tory version of D Abbot..   Love her version of Passporting >> 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108047036094574593    ... I assume no one told her that Billions have moved out of the city.   It is 'leaders' like this that give Leave a bad name...


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## spongebob59 (Apr 3, 2019)

Downing Street has confirmed Theresa May will meet Scotlandâ€™s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon today after meeting Jeremy Corbyn


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 3, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I was not saying leave voters were all ignorant.  As mentioned above there are stupid people who will vote, always have been and always will be. It's when the information given to people to base that decision on is deliberately manipulated to such an extent that some of it is basic lies it becomes a problem for society.  As inevitably people will feel let down and disenfranchised as I image we will see over the next few weeks, months, years.
		
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Amazing isnâ€™t it, especially when the base information from Remain was 100% accurate and none of it has been proven to be wrong, like the Chancellorâ€™s accurate predictions of how much it would cost each household? ðŸ™„

I thought you more intelligent than that.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Amazing isnâ€™t it, especially when the base information from Remain was 100% accurate and none of it has been proven to be wrong, like the Chancellorâ€™s accurate predictions of how much it would cost each household? ðŸ™„

I thought you more intelligent than that.
		
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I don't think that anyone's saying that both sides didn't lie. They did. However, once the Vote was won, only one sides lies are then important as they are then highlighted as they need to be acted on. 

If Remain had won then we'd now be discussing the lies that they told. But they didn't, so we're not.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			How TM must have hope that Andrea L had won the leadership vote....  Over the last few weeks Andrea keeps going down the pan in my books.   Had not seen this video earlier of her vision of where we would be.. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1112894400315748354
She does live in cloud cuckooland and a Tory version of D Abbot..   Love her version of Passporting >> 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1108047036094574593    ... I assume no one told her that Billions have moved out of the city.   It is 'leaders' like this that give Leave a bad name...
		
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Maybe if she had won she might have actually have achieved some or all of this? Unlike TM she is a Leaver so might actually tried to Leave, rather than implement TMâ€™s vision of trying to please (fool?) all of the people all of the time.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 3, 2019)

Interesting article in the Irish press, seems quite a sensible approach to me.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/break...rexit-no-tariffs-for-irish-border-910627.html


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 3, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I don't think that anyone's saying that both sides didn't lie. They did. However, once the Vote was won, only one sides lies are then important as they are then highlighted as they need to be acted on.

If Remain had won then we'd now be discussing the lies that they told. But they didn't, so we're not.
		
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Would we? Had Remain won everything would have returned to what it was before within weeks if not days. The sole reason we are still discussing the campaign inaccuracies is because a number of Remain voters are not prepared to accept the result; I donâ€™t believe this would have been the case had Leave lost. Just my opinion of course. ðŸ˜‰


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Amazing isnâ€™t it, especially when the base information from Remain was 100% accurate and none of it has been proven to be wrong, like the Chancellorâ€™s accurate predictions of how much it would cost each household? ðŸ™„

I thought you more intelligent than that.
		
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 Again I never stated that one side lied and one side told the truth.  The original comment was that if lies are told to obtain a vote then that is bad for society.  As eventually those that have been lied to get upset and disenfranchised.  2 of you have now taken that as me saying that leavers are ignorant or that one side told lies and one told the truth. See Bluewolfs comment above as he seems to have got what I was saying.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 3, 2019)

You said that not all Leave voters were ignorant in the post I quoted.  Which by implication means some Leave voters were ignorant. What would be more accurate would be to say not all voters were ignorant.

Yes if lies are told to obtain a vote then it is wrong, which is exactly what both sides did.


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## Foxholer (Apr 3, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			You may have noticed that I didn't blame the people who voted. I blamed the people who fed them excrement from the start.
		
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That may have been the case, but it 'the recipient' that's at fault for believing the 'excrement' was anything other than excrement!

And that also applies to those believing any 'excrement' that may be stated now or in the future!


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## adam6177 (Apr 3, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Would we? Had Remain won everything would have returned to what it was before within weeks if not days. The sole reason we are still discussing the campaign inaccuracies is because a number of Remain voters are not prepared to accept the result; I donâ€™t believe this would have been the case had Leave lost. Just my opinion of course. ðŸ˜‰
		
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fully agree with this.  I have absolutely zero doubt in my mind that if remain had won that not a single media outlet would have wanted to spend 2.5 years reporting about the subject and desperately try to overturn the result.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Downing Street has confirmed Theresa May will meet Scotlandâ€™s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon today after meeting Jeremy Corbyn
		
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Wonder which ends of the pantomime horse Corbyn and Sturgeon will be in.. ðŸ¤”


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## Mudball (Apr 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Downing Street has confirmed Theresa May will meet Scotlandâ€™s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon today after meeting Jeremy Corbyn
		
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Corbyn will walk out of the room as Sturgeon is not leader of opposition


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## Tashyboy (Apr 3, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Interesting article in the Irish press, seems quite a sensible approach to me.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/break...rexit-no-tariffs-for-irish-border-910627.html

Click to expand...

D4S, that piece was from March 13th, and it makes a good read, there don't seem to be a lot for us to worry about if anything. But, and I am repeating myself here, it also says that 87% of goods imported from the world will be tariff free. At the moment whilst being tied into EU trade laws, it is currently 80%. We are paying to have tariffs on less goods. Why? Leave with no deal, save Â£39 billion( if that figure is to be believed). Yet get more goods tariff free. How's that a bad deal. Some of the tariffs that will be placed on goods, are there to protect British jobs. How's that a bad deal?
Finally I think there's only gonna be me read it D4 S ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			fully agree with this.  I have absolutely zero doubt in my mind that if remain had won that not a single media outlet would have wanted to spend 2.5 years reporting about the subject and desperately try to overturn the result.
		
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What would of they reported on?
Youâ€™d of had the right wing media screaming foul and the left wing media praising the EU, ie, exactly what we had for 40+ years prior to the vote.
Surely when we voted we all knew we wouldnâ€™t leave the next day if Leave won.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Wonder which ends of the pantomime horse Corbyn and Sturgeon will be in.. ðŸ¤”
		
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I hope this is in fun, TMâ€™s behaviour has been far worse than those 2, sheâ€™s wrote the script.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			fully agree with this.  I have absolutely zero doubt in my mind that if remain had won that not a single media outlet would have wanted to spend 2.5 years reporting about the subject and desperately try to overturn the result.
		
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I'm intrigued by this comment (it's been made several times previously as well). 

The Leave referendum didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened because a significant number of people had spent years constantly whinging about us being in the EU. Political parties had been started purely to campaign about leaving the EU. Several (most) Newspapers had spent years attacking the EU. 
All sound vaguely familiar?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 3, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			She may be responsible for quite a lot of it. But for me, the main finger of blame should be pointed straight at those on the Vote Leave side who persuaded everyone that we'd be leaving with a great deal, the greatest deal ever negotiated. 

We'd hold all the cards, the German car manufacturers and French cheese and wine makers would force the EU to give us the greatest deal since records began. There'd be nothing but sunlit uplands and God save the Queen. 

People believed it, and voted accordingly, then all those prominent Leavers slunk away, waiting for the truth to hit the fan. Knowing that TM was in an absolute No Win situation. 

Once she's ousted, then watch them come slinking back in. Pretending that they had nothing to do with the mess. 

This shitshow belongs firmly to Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Banks, Wigmore, Baker etc. They own it.
		
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As I understand it part of the reason gilet jaunes have taken to the streets is that Macron has copped a deaf 'un to their concerns and supported Brussels... Typical, therefore, of the 'political classes' their agenda over the people... Clowns the lot of them... Sooner we can divulge ourselves of all  self-serving bureaucracy the better...


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 3, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I'm intrigued by this comment (it's been made several times previously as well).

The Leave referendum didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened because a significant number of people had spent years constantly whinging about us being in the EU. Political parties had been started purely to campaign about leaving the EU. Several (most) Newspapers had spent years attacking the EU.
All sound vaguely familiar?
		
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I think that had Remain won it would have been the case that Leave would have been told youâ€™ve had your chance, the country didnâ€™t want it, weâ€™re staying in, get over it.  I wouldnâ€™t necessarily disagree that a few years down the line the rumblings of discontent would resurface but in the immediate aftermath, and after a short post mortem and street parties by the Remainers there would be little more said in the press and media. It would take something like the collapse of one of the other net contributors economies exposing us to financial liability for it to all kick off again to the same extent. But thatâ€™s not going to happen, is it...


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## Foxholer (Apr 3, 2019)

GB72 said:



			In what way, both CBI and TUC have spoken out against a hard brexit so those representing both business and workers think a softer option is better. Yes, not leaving would be ideal but that is not a real option. Plus this does not have to be a fixed position. Why is it better to try and push over a wall rather than remove it over time, brick by brick
		
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Check out this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47773982

Whatever anyone may think about any (perceived) BBC bias, this area of the Beeb is a great resource - and purely 'fact based'.

Another good guide on 'soft Brexit' (another great resource, (but) restricted to Brexit) ..https://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/what-is-soft-brexit/

As for the push over vs brick by brick removal analogy....the problem is that, analogously, there's also a more powerful bunch of folk repairing and extending it in such a way that it will completely surround and subsume us!


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## User62651 (Apr 3, 2019)

So has May finally had enough of her own party?

She's been frustrated largely by the Brexiteers in getting her deal done.

So now she's given 2 fingers to them and said 'sod it I'm leaving the job anyway, you all hate me, you wont help me so I'll ask commie Corbyn over there instead for his help and we'll leave EU but with a watered down soft Brexit. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.'

After 3 years of personal PM torture she gets the last laugh? - seems that way.


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## Kellfire (Apr 3, 2019)

Why shouldnâ€™t the PM discuss the best way forward with the leader of the opposition and the most powerful politician in Scotland?

Sounds like the sort of thing that should endear her to us, not something to belittle her for.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 3, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Why shouldnâ€™t the PM discuss the best way forward with the leader of the opposition and the most powerful politician in Scotland?

Sounds like the sort of thing that should endear her to us, not something to belittle her for.
		
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Sounds like something she should have done a couple of years ago (assuming she didn't).


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## User62651 (Apr 3, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Why shouldnâ€™t the PM discuss the best way forward with the leader of the opposition and the most powerful politician in Scotland?

Sounds like the sort of thing that should endear her to us, not something to belittle her for.
		
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Think the thinking is she should have done that in summer 2017 after losing her parliamentary majority after calling the GE solely as a means of seeking a mandate for her version of Brexit, any other policy she'd have got through fine with a majority of 30 or so she inherited. She's now been boxed in so tightly she has no moves left.


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## Mudball (Apr 3, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Why shouldnâ€™t the PM discuss the best way forward with the leader of the opposition and the most powerful politician in Scotland?

Sounds like the sort of thing that should endear her to us, not something to belittle her for.
		
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Agree...  Yesterday FT article was scathing about her.   Their view was it is a good move but about 2 years late..   She now puts Corbyn in a corner + ERG in another corner and can now blame them for failing to deliver the will of the people.


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			WE WERE PROMISED TO LEAVE WITH A DEAL.
		
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NO WE WEREN'T.

There was an expectation of a good deal but there was never any promise of one.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			NO WE WEREN'T.

There was an expectation of a good deal but there was never any promise of one.
		
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What did the literature say? How many people have quoted Cameronâ€™s leaflet or the Bus or the posters etc!
Who was Joe Public meant to believe.

Does the screenshot of the leaflet not state:

_We will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave._

So agreed, no expectation of a good deal or infact a no deal, but certainly a deal.


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What did the literature say? How many people have quoted Cameronâ€™s leaflet or the Bus or the posters etc!
Who was Joe Public meant to believe.

Does the screenshot of the leaflet not state:

_We will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave._

So agreed, no expectation of a good deal or infact a no deal, but certainly a deal.
		
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And there is a deal on the table. Looks like someone has negotiated a deal then.

And it being a good deal also relies on the other side making it an acceptable deal. You canâ€™t blame the U.K. for the deal offered. That is what the EU were willing to offer. But you can blame the U.K. for accepting it up to now.


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 3, 2019)

How on Earth are we going to get out of this Bredlock?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And there is a deal on the table. Looks like someone has negotiated a deal then.

And it being a good deal also relies on the other side making it an acceptable deal. You canâ€™t blame the U.K. for the deal offered. That is what the EU were willing to offer. But you can blame the U.K. for accepting it up to now.
		
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I think youâ€™ve missed why I was responding to people, it was in answer to those saying leave meant no deal.

I, as you know, voted Leave, partly on the basis of accepting weâ€™d have to have a deal were both sides would be winners and losers.

Her current deal is a bad deal, so we should strive, imo, for a better deal rather than accepting a No Deal, which looked increasingly ever likely last week.


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## IanM (Apr 3, 2019)

...and I am looking for one of the experts to tell me how you negotiate when the "walk away" option is openly removed from the menu??  You can tell most MPs have never had real jobs!

Maybe start by saying... OK "Merks" how many "Mercs" do you want to sell post Brexit?


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I think youâ€™ve missed why I was responding to people, it was in answer to those saying leave meant no deal.

I, as you know, voted Leave, partly on the basis of accepting weâ€™d have to have a deal were both sides would be winners and losers.

Her current deal is a bad deal, so we should strive, imo, for a better deal rather than accepting a No Deal, which looked increasingly ever likely last week.
		
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A few questions I've tried to answer for myself is "what is No Deal?" What are the metrics of No Deal? What are the tariffs associated with No Deal? What "rest of the world" tariffs would end, mitigating No Deal?

We've heard a lot of noise coming from politicians and experts that No Deal would lead to armageddon. Define it. Give me fact based numbers, e.g. a typical household weekly shop would have x tariffs added and y tariffs deducted. What MRA's would be prioritised by both the EU and the UK to save jobs *both* *sides* of the channel, e.g. BMW shipping parts backwards and forwards - there's a mutual interdependency there.

I've looked at the EU's own website on tariffs. It is nowhere near armageddon. A lot of products don't have any tariffs, and a lot of products only have 2.5% tariff. 25p in Â£10 isn't earth shattering, and then mitigated with dropping tariffs from the rest of the world.

I don't doubt there'll be ripples and some fallout, but armageddon...? I do believe some of the negatives but I also think its been a phenomenal propaganda exercise, and con, by the Remainers and the EU.

And if at the end of it all its walk away without agreeing the current deal I fully expect deals would be negotiated very soon after. No Deal isn't a full stop/end off, its only one single point in the whole ongoing process.


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## Foxholer (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...
*Her current deal is a bad deal*, so we should strive, imo, for a better deal rather than accepting a No Deal, which looked increasingly ever likely last week.
		
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Can you actually explain what's bad about 'her current deal'?


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Can you actually explain what's bad about 'her current deal'?
		
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Itâ€™s the best deal we can get thatâ€™s for sure but boy is it a bad one.

Itâ€™s bad because we are not a full EU member! Thatâ€™s why!

We should be either revoking A50 or leaving without a deal. Nothing in between is good... right?


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Can you actually explain what's bad about 'her current deal'?
		
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I love that question. I'd love to know how many people have read the agreement, and can say clause A/D/X is appalling. All those saying its a bad deal without reading it.... Mmm, says a lot.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A few questions I've tried to answer for myself is "what is No Deal?" What are the metrics of No Deal? What are the tariffs associated with No Deal? What "rest of the world" tariffs would end, mitigating No Deal?

We've heard a lot of noise coming from politicians and experts that No Deal would lead to armageddon. Define it. Give me fact based numbers, e.g. a typical household weekly shop would have x tariffs added and y tariffs deducted. What MRA's would be prioritised by both the EU and the UK to save jobs *both* *sides* of the channel, e.g. BMW shipping parts backwards and forwards - there's a mutual interdependency there.

I've looked at the EU's own website on tariffs. It is nowhere near armageddon. A lot of products don't have any tariffs, and a lot of products only have 2.5% tariff. 25p in Â£10 isn't earth shattering, and then mitigated with dropping tariffs from the rest of the world.

I don't doubt there'll be ripples and some fallout, but armageddon...? I do believe some of the negatives but I also think its been a phenomenal propaganda exercise, and con, by the Remainers and the EU.

And if at the end of it all its walk away without agreeing the current deal I fully expect deals would be negotiated very soon after. No Deal isn't a full stop/end off, its only one single point in the whole ongoing process.
		
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Of course deals will be negotiated, problem is, by who and how soon, do I believe it will be armageddon? No, I also have no idea how long any hurt will last, hopefully as short as possible.

If no deal seems quite straight forward why have both sides shyâ€™d away from it.

For everything weâ€™ve seen so far, nobody wants the No Deal.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Can you actually explain what's bad about 'her current deal'?
		
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Fully and eloquently, probably not, Iâ€™ve relied on my own research and formed my own opinion from varying resources.

A few examples are as follows:
https://labour.org.uk/issues/six-reasons-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-bad-britain/





https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....mays-brexit-deal-is-terrible-for-the-u-k/amp/





https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ngle-market-customs-union-government-brussels





https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/why-we-must-reject-mays-deal/amp/

I normally find on this forum people tend to ask this sort of question when theyâ€™re either trying to belittle another poster or make themselves look clever.

Either way I believe the poster asking the question justs looks like an ass.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I love that question. I'd love to know how many people have read the agreement, and can say clause A/D/X is appalling. *All those saying its a bad deal without reading it.... Mmm, says a lot.*

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I would say 1 or 2 maximum Bri, doesnâ€™t mean we shouldnâ€™t discuss it though, otherwise itâ€™ll be just those 2 saying nothing. Not sure who it implies a lot about.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 3, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Would we? Had Remain won everything would have returned to what it was before within weeks if not days. The sole reason we are still discussing the campaign inaccuracies is because a number of Remain voters are not prepared to accept the result; I donâ€™t believe this would have been the case had Leave lost. Just my opinion of course. ðŸ˜‰
		
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Disagree here itâ€™s not the voters fault itâ€™s the MPs 

If the commons wasnâ€™t so remain dominated it would be done by now


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## drdel (Apr 3, 2019)

Well the crunch has come for me -  I'm changing sides. Juncker has declared that if there is 'No Deal' Brits will not be able to take Pork Pies and Cornish Pasties into the EU !!

I hope Old Skier will join me  and others to complain vehemently to TM to get a special case to re-open the WA.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			Well the crunch has come for me -  I'm changing sides. Juncker has declared that if there is 'No Deal' Brits will not be able to take Pork Pies and Cornish Pasties into the EU !!

I hope Old Skier will join me  and others to complain vehemently to TM to get a special case to re-open the WA.  

Click to expand...

Well in that case they can stick their frankfurters and sauerkraut where the sun doesn't shine ðŸ–•ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Well in that case they can stick their frankfurters and sauerkraut where the sun doesn't shine ðŸ–•ðŸ˜‚
		
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I have eaten Wurst.


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## Old Skier (Apr 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			Junker has declared that if there is 'No Deal' Brits will not be able to take Pork Pies and Cornish Pasties into the EU !!

I hope Old Skier will join me  and others to complain vehemently to TM to get a special case to re-open the WA.  

Click to expand...

That in itself is good enough for a deceleration of war against the EU.


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I would say 1 or 2 maximum Bri, doesnâ€™t mean we shouldnâ€™t discuss it though, otherwise itâ€™ll be just those 2 saying nothing. Not sure who it implies a lot about.
		
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 But if either a Leave or Remain MP with a vested interest in political outcomes, e.g. Boris or Yvette Cooper, says its good/bad is it good or bad? In reality its both depending on your personal choice, or its neither... but what if that 'fact' is based on a lie? An individual supporting their MP might be doing so based on a lie because they haven't read up. In effect, almost quite rightly in an ideal world, they're trusting their elected representative but...


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			That in itself is good enough for a deceleration of war against the EU.
		
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Noooo!

We have an Iceland in a town nearby. I can get Melton Mowbray pork pies here in southern Spain. I need a mule and a network of dealers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But if either a Leave or Remain MP with a vested interest in political outcomes, e.g. Boris or Yvette Cooper, says its good/bad is it good or bad? In reality its both depending on your personal choice, or its neither... but what if that 'fact' is based on a lie? An individual supporting their MP might be doing so based on a lie because they haven't read up. In effect, almost quite rightly in an ideal world, they're trusting their elected representative but...
		
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Fair point, but it wasnâ€™t defeated by a few votes, it was a record breaking defeat and from opposition from all corners.

As for trusting elected representatives, I genuinely believe Brexit is far worse and done more damage than the expenses scandal.


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Fair point, but it wasnâ€™t defeated by a few votes, it was a record breaking defeat and from opposition from all corners.

As for trusting elected representatives, I genuinely believe Brexit is far worse and done more damage than the expenses scandal.
		
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I agree, the deal is extremely poor. I wouldn't sign up to it. But my decision is based on what I've read, not from a politician who, from your second sentence, is part of a Parliament that to me is one of the worst in living memory.

But what about all those people/MP's that are fence sitters? All those that could or were swayed by someone with a loud voice and airtime, e.g. Farage? That doesn't change the fact that the deal is, imo, poor. But as bad as it is, is Parliament and the public best served by fence sitters and those who blindly follow the whip?


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## Old Skier (Apr 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Noooo!

We have an Iceland in a town nearby. I can get Melton Mowbray pork pies here in southern Spain. I need a mule and a network of dealers.
		
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The only thing I know about Iceland is they go to war over Cod, I didn't know they had an interest in Pork Pies.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree, the deal is extremely poor. I wouldn't sign up to it. But my decision is based on what I've read, not from a politician who, from your second sentence, is part of a Parliament that to me is one of the worst in living memory.

But what about all those people/MP's that are fence sitters? All those that could or were swayed by someone with a loud voice and airtime, e.g. Farage? That doesn't change the fact that the deal is, imo, poor. But as bad as it is, is Parliament and the public best served by fence sitters and those who blindly follow the whip?
		
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Local MPâ€™s up here (mainly Labour as you know) are getting a lot of stick for their stance/voting etc as the majority vote was for Leave.
At times they are damned if they do and damned if they donâ€™t, mine Graham Morris, voted with the whip a few times and abstained on a few, people want him deselected, claiming theyâ€™ll never vote Labour again etc, without coming across as arrogant, the level of ignorance is unreal and a lot firmly believe Leave meant No Deal and to hell with the consequences.
I understand every Party has to use the whip at times, but MPâ€™s also have their own mind and their constituencies to think about.


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Local MPâ€™s up here (mainly Labour as you know) are getting a lot of stick for their stance/voting etc as the majority vote was for Leave.
At times they are damned if they do and damned if they donâ€™t, mine Graham Morris, voted with the whip a few times and abstained on a few, people want him deselected, claiming theyâ€™ll never vote Labour again etc, without coming across as arrogant, the level of ignorance is unreal and a lot firmly believe Leave meant No Deal and to hell with the consequences.
I understand every Party has to use the whip at times, but MPâ€™s also have their own mind and their constituencies to think about.
		
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TBH, I'm all for MP's voting for what is right. Note, what is right, not what they think is right. In some respects this goes right back to the beginning of the whole sorry mess. What is the truth? Both Leave and Remain are, in the first instance, political choices that people made and both are right. What the impact of both will be in the long term we don't know exactly. Some say the EU is, potentially, a house of cards, and some say the UK economy will tank.

In both cases, there might be some serious ripples but those ripples will be addressed as best as the politicians in the EU and the UK can. If Brexit does happen and the UK's economy starts to nose dive do you think the govt of the day will stand idle? Same for the EU, as the junk bonds start to mature the EU will, no doubt, judiciously address those issues.

Will the UK perform at its best immediately after Brexit? I doubt it but, equally, I don't believe in the armageddon that the hysterical ones preach.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 3, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Disagree here itâ€™s not the voters fault itâ€™s the MPs

If the commons wasnâ€™t so remain dominated it would be done by now
		
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Do you seriously think that the Remain campaignâ€™s continual rallies and marches havenâ€™t given the MPâ€™s justification; had there not been this public outcry they would have found it much harder to act as they have.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 4, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do you seriously think that the Remain campaignâ€™s continual rallies and marches havenâ€™t given the MPâ€™s justification; had there not been this public outcry they would have found it much harder to act as they have.
		
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If we had a leave parliament we would be gone


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## Tashyboy (Apr 4, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The only thing I know about Iceland is they go to war over Cod, I didn't know they had an interest in Pork Pies.
		
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Trawlers and the Royal Navy going nose to nose over a pork pie seems a bit excessive to me.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 4, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do you seriously think that the Remain campaignâ€™s continual rallies and marches havenâ€™t given the MPâ€™s justification; had there not been this public outcry they would have found it much harder to act as they have.
		
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No because the public outcry has given MPs, who only have there own agenda a reason to push this further then required.  Do you think all Remain MPs are squabbling over Joe publics interests. If they were maybe they might just think about the majority of people that voted leave and the majority of regions that voted leave.


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2019)

"we can't get a no deal Brexit because Parliament won't let us" from a Tory (add expletive) seconds ago on R4.

Of course you can. Let everything ride then on April 12th No Deal automatically comes into effect.


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2019)

TM, with her actions this month, will have almost destroyed the Tory party. If there was an Gen elec tomorrow, their vote would collapse.


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2019)

Mp was Matt Hancock NHS plonker and Tory creep.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 4, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			TM, with her actions this month, will have almost destroyed the Tory party. If there was an Gen elec tomorrow, their vote would collapse.
		
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Every cloud and all that....


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 4, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do you seriously think that the Remain campaignâ€™s continual rallies and marches havenâ€™t given the MPâ€™s justification; had there not been this public outcry they would have found it much harder to act as they have.
		
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You mean they are listening to the will of the people?  Damn you democracy...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			TM, with her actions this month, will have almost destroyed the Tory party. If there was an Gen elec tomorrow, their vote would collapse.
		
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And vote for who instead ? 

If there was a Gen Election tomorrow then the tories would still get more seats , no other party has enough support the UK and certainly not Labour


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## spongebob59 (Apr 4, 2019)

Maybe :

[B]Nigel Farage[/B]â€Verified account @[B]Nigel_Farage[/B] 9h9 hours ago
More
Nigel Farage Retweeted Press Association
How can a single vote in parliament supersede the 1.3m vote majority for Brexit?  It is now clear we will have to fight our political classes again.  Iâ€™m up for it.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Maybe :

[B]Nigel Farage[/B]â€Verified account @[B]Nigel_Farage[/B] 9h9 hours ago
More
Nigel Farage Retweeted Press Association
*How can a single vote in parliament supersede the 1.3m vote majority for Brexit? * It is now clear we will have to fight our political classes again.  Iâ€™m up for it.
		
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Because parliament is where we make laws that supersede advisory referendums?


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Maybe :

[B]Nigel Farage[/B]â€Verified account @[B]Nigel_Farage[/B] 9h9 hours ago
More
Nigel Farage Retweeted Press Association
How can a single vote in parliament supersede the 1.3m vote majority for Brexit?  It is now clear we will have to fight our political classes again.  Iâ€™m up for it.
		
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He sure is. E mails flying around begging for money, LOL


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## Mudball (Apr 4, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do you seriously think that the Remain campaignâ€™s continual rallies and marches havenâ€™t given the MPâ€™s justification; had there not been this public outcry they would have found it much harder to act as they have.
		
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I think people give too much credit to the Remainers for the state of affair.  I admit that all Remainers want the same thing (something called Remain) while Leavers have different reason and flavour of Leave that they want...   However, dont blame the people, it is the MPs that vote.  And MPs vote the way they or party want to rather than what they think is good for constituency/country.   'Remain MPs' are as influenced by their constituency votes as the 'Leave MPs'.   Rees-Mogg and BoJo constituency voted Remain, but they both are the most hardliners..   I am sure there are examples on the Remain side.   So the basic rule - People dont ruin Brexshit gravy train, Parties do..


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## Beezerk (Apr 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You mean they are listening to the will of the people?  Damn you democracy...
		
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That will be the 400k cockneys who decided to get out of bed for once ðŸ˜‚


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You mean they are listening to the will of the people?  Damn you democracy...
		
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They're listening to a vocal minority; the will of the people was asked, and the people answered, via the Referendum.  The same Referendum which they promised to honour the result of, and which they are trying every means to weasel out of.


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And vote for who instead ?

If there was a Gen Election tomorrow then the tories would still get more seats , no other party has enough support the UK and certainly not Labour
		
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Seriously?? I know for most Tories, it would be a BIG stretch to vote for Labour or even Libs. i think they'd abstain. But the problem would be that the labour nutters following JC would come out in their hordes and they would get in big style.


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I think people give too much credit to the Remainers for the state of affair.  I admit that all Remainers want the same thing (something called Remain) while Leavers have different reason and flavour of Leave that they want...   However, dont blame the people, it is the MPs that vote.  And MPs vote the way they or party want to rather than what they think is good for constituency/country.   'Remain MPs' are as influenced by their constituency votes as the 'Leave MPs'.   Rees-Mogg and BoJo constituency voted Remain, but they both are the most hardliners..   I am sure there are examples on the Remain side.   So the basic rule - People dont ruin Brexshit gravy train, Parties do..
		
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I think the Leavers (most if not all) have hardened up and want a no deal now.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 4, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



*They're listening to a vocal minority*; the will of the people was asked, and the people answered, via the Referendum.  The same Referendum which they promised to honour the result of, and which they are trying every means to weasel out of.
		
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As TMay has been doing with the ERG. The will of parliament was asked, and parliament answered, via the votes. The same votes that set the laws in this country. 

Look, as I've always said people can make statements regarding democracy and will of the people depending  on how that will enhance their argument.  You are right, I am right, none makes the other wrong, it's just a mater of opinion. At the end of the day parliament are the only body that have to make a legally binding decision based on their opinions.


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## robinthehood (Apr 4, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Seriously?? I know for most Tories, it would be a BIG stretch to vote for Labour or even Libs. i think they'd abstain. But the problem would be that the labour nutters following JC would come out in their hordes and they would get in big style.
		
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Previous labour landslides suggest thats not the case. Although corbyn will put many off


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			As TMay has been doing with the ERG. The will of parliament was asked, and parliament answered, via the votes. The same votes that set the laws in this country. 

Look, as I've always said people can make statements regarding democracy and will of the people depending  on how that will enhance their argument.  You are right, I am right, none makes the other wrong, it's just a mater of opinion. *At the end of the day parliament are the only body that have to make a legally binding decision based on their opinions.*

Click to expand...


And sadly I have a strong suspicion that their opinions depend far more on their personal interests than the interests of the public they were elected to represent.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I think people give too much credit to the Remainers for the state of affair.  I admit that all Remainers want the same thing (something called Remain) while Leavers have different reason and flavour of Leave that they want...   However, dont blame the people, it is the MPs that vote.  And MPs vote the way they or party want to rather than what they think is good for constituency/country.   'Remain MPs' are as influenced by their constituency votes as the 'Leave MPs'.   Rees-Mogg and BoJo constituency voted Remain, but they both are the most hardliners..   I am sure there are examples on the Remain side.   So the basic rule - People dont ruin Brexshit gravy train, Parties do..
		
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Totally false to suggest that those who voted Remain all did so for the same reason. 

Some wanted increased control from the centre, some merely wanted to maintain the status quo whilst others, like myself, wanted to remain within a trading bloc but to turn the tide of creeping federalism.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 4, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I think the Leavers (most if not all) have hardened up and want a no deal now.
		
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I would hope not as that will mostly enhance the view for many that it is a purely ideological dogmatic pursuit not based on the reality of the economic situation and the impact it will have on many.  I can completely buy leavers saying they want to leave because they feel that there is too much immigration so lets do a deal with the EU so we can leave and address that.  Don't agree with it but can completely understand it. 

But I like I imagine many remainers struggle to understand the desire to want to leave with no deal when you have organisations like the CBI and TUC issuing joint statements and the head of the civil service warning of the dire impacts of a no deal.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 4, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Totally false to suggest that those who voted Remain all did so for the same reason.

Some wanted increased control from the centre, some merely wanted to maintain the status quo whilst others, like myself, wanted to remain within a trading bloc but to turn the tide of creeping federalism.
		
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And some quite liked the checks and balances and holding to account that the EU can do on increasingly ideologically based governments of both flavours. Not sure if that qualifies for more control from the centre or not?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2019)

Interesting piece this morning  from the Economics Correspondent of The Guardian questioning the benefit of a Customs Union and showing how it is our trade with non-EU countries that has grown at the faster level for many years now. 

Sorry but I am afraid that I am "technology illiterate" and unable to post a link.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			And some quite liked the checks and balances and holding to account that the EU can do on increasingly ideologically based governments of both flavours. Not sure if that qualifies for more control from the centre or not?
		
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Which rather goes to prove my point.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Seriously?? I know for most Tories, it would be a BIG stretch to vote for Labour or even Libs. i think they'd abstain. But the problem would be that the labour nutters following JC would come out in their hordes and they would get in big style.
		
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Yes seriously 
Do you really think people are going to be swayed by Corbyn and his shadow cabinet ? Labour are unelectable with Corbyn as the leader and people like Abbott and McDowell in his cabinet


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## Slime (Apr 4, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			"we can't get a no deal Brexit because Parliament won't let us" from a Tory (add expletive) seconds ago on R4.

Of course you can. Let everything ride then on April 12th No Deal automatically comes into effect.
		
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## IanM (Apr 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			And some quite liked the checks and balances and holding to account that the EU can do on increasingly ideologically based governments of both flavours. Not sure if that qualifies for more control from the centre or not?
		
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Ah, "checks and balances" from an organisation that has behaved so ethincally for the past 60 years.  (oh my, I bet I have too spell it out!)


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## woofers (Apr 4, 2019)

So, Juncker, Tusk and co are saying that it looks increasingly likely that the UK will be leaving with No Deal, (possibly on the 12th April).
The UK Parliament have voted against leaving with No Deal.
Who decides the outcome ? If the deadline date is reached and a deal hasn't been agreed then surely the UK leaves without a deal, regardless of what Parliament have voted for?


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## drdel (Apr 4, 2019)

I'm continually surprised by Carney et al who moan that a No Deal will be a massive problem yet he/they do not look at the dire state of the EU's finances. Italian debt has grown, so has Greece, Spain, and France's. Germany is 'officially' in negative growth. In addition the EU budget is et higher than any member's growth so adds to their debt. The ECB can't meet the IMF stress tests. The 'net taker' members are increasing their demands for funds for flashy  infrastructure projects at a time when the UK can't even repair our existing roads

If the UK continues to be in the EU these additional costs and debt will lead to a proportionally higher contribution from UK taxpayers.

We really need to stop wittering about whose to blame in the UK and wake up to what is happening in the RoW and the disaster of an experiment in federalism that is Juncker's EU.


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## adam6177 (Apr 4, 2019)

Didn't know whether to start a new thread or a poll or whatever...... But on the 2nd of may we're due to have local elections. Has all this affected how you'll vote and how do you see them panning out?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Didn't know whether to start a new thread or a poll or whatever...... But on the 2nd of may we're due to have local elections. Has all this affected how you'll vote and how do you see them panning out?
		
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I would like to think most people are able to see a difference between whatâ€™s happening locally, nationally and globally.
Punishing your local councillor who may be doing a lot of good because of how an MP for your area or Parliament as a whole are behaving would be daft imo.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 4, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Didn't know whether to start a new thread or a poll or whatever...... But on the 2nd of may we're due to have local elections. Has all this affected how you'll vote and how do you see them panning out?
		
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I genuinely vote on local issues in these elections so no. Equally, the local councillors around me stay well clear of national issues so that helps their cause.


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2019)

"Indicative Votes" was voted down yesterday and yet they, Politics Live, are saying the government can bring them in next week. What the bluddy hell is going on?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 4, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			"Indicative Votes" was voted down yesterday and yet they, Politics Live, are saying the government can bring them in next week. *What the bluddy hell is going on*?
		
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I'm not sure anyone quite knows.

I watch the news each night, the other week I watched coverage of parliament rolling news as it was genuinely interesting, but I do not get excited by any of it now. Each day is apparently critical or momentous but we are not moving forward in any way. I'll really take notice again when something genuinely happens but until then it is best to stay relaxed about it all.

Have you seen the video of Mark Francois (arch Brexiteer) last night in the commons close to exploding with anger. It was actually funny to watch. Good to see passion but I fear he has lost perspective. He needs to relieve the tension, take up golf


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## woofers (Apr 4, 2019)




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## Blue in Munich (Apr 4, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Didn't know whether to start a new thread or a poll or whatever...... But on the 2nd of may we're due to have local elections. Has all this affected how you'll vote and how do you see them panning out?
		
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pauldj42 said:



			I would like to think most people are able to see a difference between whatâ€™s happening locally, nationally and globally.
Punishing your local councillor who may be doing a lot of good because of how an MP for your area or Parliament as a whole are behaving would be daft imo.
		
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Agree with Paul on this one.  A lot of my local Councillors are independent or residents' association, a couple of them I have 1 to 1 relationships with through work (and can be found discussing the day's football results on the train home  ) so would view them completely differently to the shower in Westminster.   Daft and harsh to punish them.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 4, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1113444483138347009


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm not sure anyone quite knows.

I watch the news each night, the other week I watched coverage of parliament rolling news as it was genuinely interesting, but I do not get excited by any of it now. Each day is apparently critical or momentous but we are not moving forward in any way. I'll really take notice again when something genuinely happens but until then it is best to stay relaxed about it all.

Have you seen the video of Mark Francois (arch Brexiteer) last night in the commons close to exploding with anger. It was actually funny to watch. Good to see passion but I fear he has lost perspective. He needs to relieve the tension, *take up golf* 

Click to expand...

LOL !!! BOOM !


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2019)

woofers said:



View attachment 27009

Click to expand...

She's EVIL ! Another lying MP! I hate her with every bone in my body!


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Agree with Paul on this one.  A lot of my local Councillors are independent or residents' association, a couple of them I have 1 to 1 relationships with through work (and can be found discussing the day's football results on the train home  ) so would view them completely differently to the shower in Westminster.   Daft and harsh to punish them.
		
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Well mines witch, who does not live in my area, does sweet fanny adams for my area but is Labour and gets in by a country mile. Another one I hate. I've been argueing with her for 12 months to help out on an issue in my area and had done nowt visibly. I cannot wait for them to come knocking in a few weeks. I've got a few ideas regarding how I'd like to "punish" her..er that didn't come out right.


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I would like to think most people are able to see a difference between whatâ€™s happening locally, nationally and globally.
Punishing your local councillor who may be doing a lot of good because of how an MP for your area or Parliament as a whole are behaving would be daft imo.
		
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I wish you were right but down here it is increasingly obvious that locally elected officials from parish right up to county are not following the wishes of the electorate. Take a look at planning as a starter for 10.


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2019)

woofers said:



View attachment 27009

Click to expand...

Shes up for deselection from her constituency party when the election comes. Momentum gearing up to get rid of the "soft left".


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I love that question. I'd love to know how many people have read the agreement, and can say clause A/D/X is appalling. All those saying its a bad deal without reading it.... Mmm, says a lot.
		
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Indeed! I'm pretty certain that most folk don't even know what 'the deal' is - and isn't - about! I DID read much/most of it - and refered to an 'explanation' (by the good ol' Beeb I think) of what the overall consequences were. I need to refresh my memory though!

But I'm certain many are simply hearing the 'it's a bad deal'


pauldj42 said:



			Fully and eloquently, probably not, Iâ€™ve relied on my own research and formed my own opinion from varying resources.

A few examples are as follows:
https://labour.org.uk/issues/six-reasons-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-bad-britain/





https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....mays-brexit-deal-is-terrible-for-the-u-k/amp/





https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ngle-market-customs-union-government-brussels





https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/why-we-must-reject-mays-deal/amp/

I normally find on this forum people tend to ask this sort of question when theyâ€™re either trying to belittle another poster or make themselves look clever.

Either way I believe the poster asking the question justs looks like an ass.
		
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Well done you then! At least you appear to have done research, something I believe many (most of my work colleagues, who still define it as a 'bad deal' for example) simply haven't done - yet pronounce it as a 'bad deal' anyway!


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 4, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I wish you were right but down here it is increasingly obvious that locally elected officials from parish right up to county are not following the wishes of the electorate. Take a look at planning as a starter for 10.
		
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We have had a real issue with the council pretty much allowing a free for all in terms of planning. The damage they have done is obscene. There were council elections two years ago and the seemingly safe council was over turned, new people were voted in and normal order is being restored. A number of councillors stood on a platform of no new estates and were elected because of it. The existing approvals still have to go through, nothing can be done there, but the big new schemes are being turned down. Smaller ones, fine but the builders are no longer walking over the system and damaging the town. Look out in May for who opposes the new developments and put your cross there.

(before anyone shouts nimby, we had a plan for the number of new builds required for the area for the next 20yrs. Approval for that number was passed within 12 months and by 18 months in we were at an extra 50%. Not spread over 20yrs as stated but in one big up front hit . I get your anger Old Skier)


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			"Indicative Votes" was voted down yesterday and yet they, Politics Live, are saying the government can bring them in next week. What the bluddy hell is going on?
		
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It is called the May formula.

BTW 52% of UK population voted leave and the polls said 54% of the UK population supported of the war in Iraq. 
Hindsight can be a wonderful thing.

Yesterday Labour lost a barrowload of votes by rejecting free movement.
Today that horrible excuse of a man Lord Forsyth talks down no vote in the HofLords and the Tories will lose a shedful of votes.
Are these numpties deliberately trying not to be elected next GE.


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			If we had a leave parliament we would be gone
		
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But the question is.....'Why do we have so many that, in spite of confirming that they would accept the Referendum result, is there NOT a 'Leave' parliament?'? And that applies to Labour's leadership as well - who 'use the whip' in spite of committing to honour the result. It would probably apply to Tories too, but I believe so many would defy that process that it hasn't been used (much).


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Didn't know whether to start a new thread or a poll or whatever...... But on the 2nd of may we're due to have local elections. Has all this affected how you'll vote and how do you see them panning out?
		
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Our area was once a Tory stronghold, in the last 20 years it has been more or less an equal 3 way split.
Latest elections has seen the Labour vote squeezed so probably working towards a straight SNP v Tory fight.
I have a fair idea how that will pan out next election.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			But the question is.....'Why do we have so many that, in spite of confirming that they would accept the Referendum result, is there NOT a 'Leave' parliament?'? And that applies to Labour's leadership as well - who 'use the whip' in spite of committing to honour the result. It would probably apply to Tories too, but I believe so many would defy that process that it hasn't been used (much).
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they know the truth that is going to screw us over


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## Mudball (Apr 4, 2019)

Pie Man nails it again.  





And then he writes Mays Obituary


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 4, 2019)

Dear Theresa May (and the rest of Parliament),

While you are all busy doing your best to **** up Brexit I'm watching DIY SOS, where a guy that spent 20 years serving this country in the armed forces, and got injured doing so, is now relying on a TV show and the good will of the local community to provide a home that is fit for purpose.

How about you all take your head out of your collective arses, get on with running this country, take care of those who deserve our help and actually do the job that you're being paid (by us) to do.

Yours sincerely,
A Taxpayer


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2019)

So the heavens poured on the confused soles in parliament today, tried to wash them away but like all rats they left the sinking ship.  While they're out change the locks, start a fire or restock gunpowder in the cellar. I mean how bad could it be without them?  I'm sure some 16 year old kid could make a computer program that was possible of making better decisions in seconds and wouldn't need second homes, massive expense bills and endless big pay increases.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2019)

Greetings dear forummers one and all from Alice Springs - half way through our Travels - and today itâ€™s 32deg hot.

And so how are things going with Brexit.  Everyone happy?  All going to the plan some here assured me was in place for triggering of art 50 and the negotiations to get the excellent deal the EU needed with us.  All risks and issues had been identified and mitigationâ€™s and contingencies in place?  Just in case the unthinkable happened and the German car industry didnâ€™t come galloping over the hill etc etc.  I donâ€™t think so.  And no mention back then of No Deal being what everyone voted for.  Oh no - a great trade deal had been promised by the leave campaign and it was only time before the EU would acquiesce - cave in under pressure from EU agricultaure and industry.

And then I recall how often I was told that it was naive of me to expect to be told anything much at all about strategy, plans, risk management etc - oh no - too sensitive dear fellow - it would give away our negotiation strategy; that the negotiating genius that was Dave Davies had it all under control.  Well hasnâ€™t that strategy worked well.

We have spoken to many, many people from the EU and over the world about Brexit over the last 2 months and as a body they cannot believe what we are doing, and even then the mess we are making of it. Nobody seems to think it sensible and all from EU27 are sad about what we are doing. Aside -  I listened to the lead presenter on the daily Late night newspaper review on ABC refer to our strategy and agreement as â€˜garbageâ€™ - I smiled that she described it as she saw it - but how very dare she... ðŸ˜‚

Ah well.  Thatâ€™s enough from me for a while - sad to see that the usual suspects have found alternative targets here for their superiority and dismissals - just glad to be out of it and watching from the side.

Off to Darwin in 5 hrs, then North Queensland coast until early May.

Btw - if they are not on your bucket list get Uluru and Kata Tjuta on it right away.  If you can getout here they are with the effort.  Just awesome.

And I have even managed four rounds whilst on our Travels 

Have fun

Hogie/SILH


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2019)

Good news from Tusk
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...flextension-for-uk/ar-BBVDDJ7?ocid=spartandhp.

Hi Hogie, glad you are having a good time, they way things are going in the UK you might consider a permanent move.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Apr 5, 2019)

Really good insight on last nights Brexitcast from a remain and leave MP about the Brexit process, worth a listen for those who think they are all useless.  

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p075krdd


----------



## Slime (Apr 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Good news from Tusk*
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...flextension-for-uk/ar-BBVDDJ7?ocid=spartandhp.

Hi Hogie, glad you are having a good time, they way things are going in the UK you might consider a permanent move.

Click to expand...

I hoped it would be his resignation.


----------



## spongebob59 (Apr 5, 2019)




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## User62651 (Apr 5, 2019)

Slime said:



			I hoped it would be his resignation. 

Click to expand...

Now now, live and let live. Leavers had this and it's predecessing thread swamped for a long time with much mob goading of remainers/remoaners, things have evened out more recently with a better balance of argument from several newer contributors on both sides imo. SILHs contributions are as valid as anyone else's and he ploughed something of a lone furrow for quite a long time asking salient questions leavers couldn't answer. Seems a lot of what he said has come to be shown correct.


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Now now, live and let live. Leavers had this and it's predecessing thread swamped for a long time with much mob goading of remainers/remoaners, things have evened out more recently with a better balance of argument from several newer contributors on both sides imo. SILHs contributions are as valid as anyone else's and he ploughed something of a lone furrow for quite a long time asking salient questions leavers couldn't answer. Seems a lot of what he said has come to be shown correct.
		
Click to expand...

Leavers always admitt that there were questions that couldn't be answered and remainers  also failed to answer questions on the future of the EU so let's call that a no score draw.

I also think you would find if you could get to the original thread the goading and insults originally came from the remain side however that is water under the bridge, a bit like Brexit by the look of things.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Apr 5, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Leavers always admitt that there were questions that couldn't be answered and remainers  also failed to answer questions on the future of the EU so let's call that a no score draw.

I also think you would find if you could get to the original thread the goading and insults originally came from the remain side however that is water under the bridge, a* bit like Brexit by the look of things*.
		
Click to expand...

Every cloud....  

I rashly made a bet that I lost that TMay would get her deal through, and still think she will get some form of deal through.  However the idea currently muted that we can cancel participation in the the EU elections literally the day before if we pass the deal sounds a bit bonkers.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Greetings dear forummers one and all from Alice Springs - half way through our Travels - and today itâ€™s 32deg hot.

And so how are things going with Brexit.  Everyone happy?  All going to the plan some here assured me was in place for triggering of art 50 and the negotiations to get the excellent deal the EU needed with us.  All risks and issues had been identified and mitigationâ€™s and contingencies in place?  Just in case the unthinkable happened and the German car industry didnâ€™t come galloping over the hill etc etc.  I donâ€™t think so.  And no mention back then of No Deal being what everyone voted for.  Oh no - a great trade deal had been promised by the leave campaign and it was only time before the EU would acquiesce - cave in under pressure from EU agricultaure and industry.

And then I recall how often I was told that it was naive of me to expect to be told anything much at all about strategy, plans, risk management etc - oh no - too sensitive dear fellow - it would give away our negotiation strategy; that the negotiating genius that was Dave Davies had it all under control.  Well hasnâ€™t that strategy worked well.

We have spoken to many, many people from the EU and over the world about Brexit over the last 2 months and as a body they cannot believe what we are doing, and even then the mess we are making of it. Nobody seems to think it sensible and all from EU27 are sad about what we are doing. Aside -  I listened to the lead presenter on the daily Late night newspaper review on ABC refer to our strategy and agreement as â€˜garbageâ€™ - I smiled that she described it as she saw it - but how very dare she... ðŸ˜‚

Ah well.  Thatâ€™s enough from me for a while - sad to see that the usual suspects have found alternative targets here for their superiority and dismissals - just glad to be out of it and watching from the side.

Off to Darwin in 5 hrs, then North Queensland coast until early May.

Btw - if they are not on your bucket list get Uluru and Kata Tjuta on it right away.  If you can getout here they are with the effort.  Just awesome.

And I have even managed four rounds whilst on our Travels 

Have fun

Hogie/SILH
		
Click to expand...

Glad you're having a nice sabbatical. Please dont hurry back, were managing just fine ðŸ˜‰


----------



## Mudball (Apr 5, 2019)

So May asked for an extension till June 30.   Why has she done that? Was i the only one who thought she was going to work with Corbyn to come up with a solution.  So has a solution been found or has she found one without Corby?  She also says that we will participate in EU elections if needed.     

Till about  2 weeks ago, i thought i knew what was going on, but i think i have lost the plot too...   This is becoming one of the BBC police drama set in the grim North East with a few dead bodies, corrupt cops, killers with a heart and where no one knows who is shagging whom or who will be next to be knocked off..


----------



## spongebob59 (Apr 5, 2019)

Theresa May has asked EU leaders for a further delay to Brexit to 30 June.
As Philip Hammond said to me, the EU is very likely to insist on a much longer extension (if any) - unless the PM and Jeremy Corbyn can demonstrate by Wednesday's EU council meeting that they have agreed a way forward not only to approve the Withdrawal Agreement by then but also ensure the passage of the crucial accompanying legislation, the Withdrawal Agreement and Implementation Bill. Proving to the EU that the UK would not need yet another extension to avoid a no-deal Brexit currently looks a huge stretch.
And the point is that EU leaders do not want the UK to be constantly bothering them with further requests for Brexit delays. So the PM could be forced to accept either a Brexit delay of a year or so, or indeed (still not impossible) a no-deal Brexit on 12 April.
PS The PM has confirmed the UK will now start proper and expensive preparations for participating in elections to the EU parliament, even though the UK voted to leave the EU, and even though May is hoping the EU will allow her to cancel the actual casting of votes by UK citizens the day before the poll is due to happen on 23 May, if parliament actually agrees and implements her Brexit deal by 22 May. Many would say this makes a mockery of an important EU democratic process.
PPS By requesting a delay to "just" 30 June, Theresa May is trolling those who want a confirmatory referendum, or people's vote, because that delay is nowhere near long enough to accommodate a referendum. She is also trying to embarrass Jeremy Corbyn into agreeing a Brexit compromise before Wednesday, because if he doesn't she will be able to accuse him of blocking a short Brexit delay to "just" 30 June and wanting to trap the UK in the EU for much longer. This is raw brutal politics.


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## User62651 (Apr 5, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Theresa May has asked EU leaders for a further delay to Brexit to 30 June.
As Philip Hammond said to me, the EU is very likely to insist on a much longer extension (if any) - unless the PM and Jeremy Corbyn can demonstrate by Wednesday's EU council meeting that they have agreed a way forward not only to approve the Withdrawal Agreement by then but also ensure the passage of the crucial accompanying legislation, the Withdrawal Agreement and Implementation Bill. Proving to the EU that the UK would not need yet another extension to avoid a no-deal Brexit currently looks a huge stretch.
And the point is that EU leaders do not want the UK to be constantly bothering them with further requests for Brexit delays. So the PM could be forced to accept either a Brexit delay of a year or so, or indeed (still not impossible) a no-deal Brexit on 12 April.
PS The PM has confirmed the UK will now start proper and expensive preparations for participating in elections to the EU parliament, even though the UK voted to leave the EU, and even though May is hoping the EU will allow her to cancel the actual casting of votes by UK citizens the day before the poll is due to happen on 23 May, if parliament actually agrees and implements her Brexit deal by 22 May. Many would say this makes a mockery of an important EU democratic process.
PPS By requesting a delay to "just" 30 June, Theresa May is trolling those who want a confirmatory referendum, or people's vote, because that delay is nowhere near long enough to accommodate a referendum. She is also trying to embarrass Jeremy Corbyn into agreeing a Brexit compromise before Wednesday, because if he doesn't she will be able to accuse him of blocking a short Brexit delay to "just" 30 June and wanting to trap the UK in the EU for much longer. *This is raw brutal politics.*

Click to expand...

Interesting insight. Got to believe the current manouvering is purely 'save party' based rather than for the good of the country from May.

I dont like May's new proposed June 30th as a revised Brexit date so I hope any extension is longer as I fly into EU on 29th June for hols. Just dont need the worry of 'what ifs' wrt passports, flights, currency rates etc. 

Should I get an international drivers permit thingy now?  Has anyone done that yet?


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## jp5 (Apr 5, 2019)

Penny seems to have dropped for Mr Rees-Mogg that while we're in the EU we have enormous power. A late realisation I suppose, but better late than never.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Penny seems to have dropped for Mr Rees-Mogg that while we're in the EU we have enormous power. A late realisation I suppose, but better late than never.
		
Click to expand...

And empty pockets.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 5, 2019)

I've pinched this from elsewhere, it did make me chuckle.


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## IanM (Apr 5, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Penny seems to have dropped for Mr Rees-Mogg that while we're in the EU we have enormous power. A late realisation I suppose, but better late than never.
		
Click to expand...

We?  Or them?  On the basis the UK resolution are the most often defeated, that's pretty clear.  But nice of us to keep funding it. 

Also nice to have the Govt confirm my view that we have no intention to leave, otherwise no need to prep for EU Elections.


----------



## pendodave (Apr 5, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Interesting insight. Got to believe the current manouvering is purely 'save party' based rather than for the good of the country from May.

I dont like May's new proposed June 30th as a revised Brexit date so I hope any extension is longer as I fly into EU on 29th June for hols. Just dont need the worry of 'what ifs' wrt passports, flights, currency rates etc. 

Should I get an international drivers permit thingy now?  Has anyone done that yet?
		
Click to expand...

I got one a few weeks ago, as I am driving in Europe next week... Maybe I was a little hasty
Only cost a few quid and is old school cardboard thing with stick on passport photos and has to be manually franked by the post office chappy.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Now now, live and let live. Leavers had this and it's predecessing thread swamped for a long time with much mob goading of remainers/remoaners, *things have evened out more recently with a better balance of argument from several newer contributors on both sides imo*. SILHs contributions are as valid as anyone else's and he ploughed something of a lone furrow for quite a long time asking salient questions leavers couldn't answer. Seems a lot of what he said has come to be shown correct.
		
Click to expand...

Did you not consider that the reason for the improved balance on the thread was the absence of the wind up merchant who went out of his way to spoil it?


----------



## jp5 (Apr 5, 2019)

IanM said:



			We?  Or them?  On the basis the UK resolution are the most often defeated, that's pretty clear.  But nice of us to keep funding it.

Also nice to have the Govt confirm my view that we have no intention to leave, otherwise no need to prep for EU Elections.
		
Click to expand...

We. 

On the losing side of EU votes 2% of the time.

Doesn't sound too bad. I'm sure Mrs May would be happy with that figure!


----------



## User62651 (Apr 5, 2019)

pendodave said:



			I got one a few weeks ago, as I am driving in Europe next week... Maybe I was a little hasty
Only cost a few quid and is old school cardboard thing with stick on passport photos and has to be manually franked by the post office chappy.
		
Click to expand...

Just got one, too much uncertainty not to. Throwback to the 1970s looking at it, like a ration card. 
Between getting photos and paying for the licence I'm Â£11.50 down plus standing there lost 15 minutes as it was handwritten out. 

Never mind, the good old days are coming back. 

#thoroughlydepressingneedlessBrexit.


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## jp5 (Apr 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And empty pockets.
		
Click to expand...

I look forward to taking back the hefty 0.3% of our GDP we spend on EU membership and spending it, and a fair bit more, on red tape! 

Although to be fair as our GDP has slowed due to us doing nothing but Brexit, that figure might creep up to 0.31% soon!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I look forward to taking back the hefty 0.3% of our GDP we spend on EU membership and spending it, and a fair bit more, on red tape! 

Although to be fair as our GDP has slowed due to us doing nothing but Brexit, that figure might creep up to 0.31% soon! 

Click to expand...

So if Brexit is the reason for our economic growth slowing what is the excuse for the other EU countries?


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## jp5 (Apr 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			So if Brexit is the reason for our economic growth slowing what is the excuse for the other EU countries?
		
Click to expand...

Sure that each country has their own issues, but we're pretty much bottom of the table. 

Perhaps if we invested the money we wasted on planning for a no deal that the PM was never going to happen we'd be doing a little better.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Sure that each country has their own issues, but we're pretty much bottom of the table. 

Perhaps if we invested the money we wasted on planning for a no deal that the PM was never going to happen we'd be doing a little better.
		
Click to expand...

Care to support with facts the claim in your first sentence?

Some EU countries are slightly better whilst others, including Germany and Italy,  are slightly worse.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I look forward to taking back the hefty 0.3% of our GDP we spend on EU membership and spending it, and a fair bit more, on red tape! 

Although to be fair as our GDP has slowed due to us doing nothing but Brexit, that figure might creep up to 0.31% soon! 

Click to expand...

You're comfortable for us to pay north of Â£110 million to fund EU elections then. How about employing a raft of NHS employees instead ðŸ˜ž


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## robinthehood (Apr 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You're comfortable for us to pay north of Â£110 million to fund EU elections then. How about employing a raft of NHS employees instead ðŸ˜ž
		
Click to expand...

Pfft isn't the 350 mil a week going to the NHS


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Pfft isn't the 350 mil a week going to the NHS
		
Click to expand...

Give it a rest, it was never said it was going to the nhs


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Pfft isn't the 350 mil a week going to the NHS
		
Click to expand...

Yes, if we ever manage to leave. Another 110+ mill would be a cherry on the top

Looks like the lots going down the plug hole though due to the treachery being carried out by parliamentary Remainers they should start a new party. The Kippers (Two faced with no guts) ðŸ›ðŸœ


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## robinthehood (Apr 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, if we ever manage to leave. Another 110+ mill would be a cherry on the top

Looks like the lots going down the plug hole though due to the treachery being carried out by parliamentary Remainers they should start a new party. The Kippers (Two faced with no guts) ðŸ›ðŸœ
		
Click to expand...

You mean the two faced brexit poster boy's like bojo and Mog,  it was there and then they killed it.


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## robinthehood (Apr 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Give it a rest, it was never said it was going to the nhs
		
Click to expand...

No ,just pretended it would.


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## IanM (Apr 5, 2019)

Interesting angle in the FullFacts data

Massively amused by the assertion that the "low cost as a percentage of GDP" makes Federalism OK

I dont rate Junker, Tusk and Barnier....when do I get to vote them out?


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## Mudball (Apr 5, 2019)

IanM said:



			Interesting angle in the FullFacts data

Massively amused by the assertion that the "low cost as a percentage of GDP" makes Federalism OK

*I dont rate Junker, Tusk and Barnier*....when do I get to vote them out?
		
Click to expand...

and they are any better than the 600 odd folks in Westminister???


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Give it a rest, it was never said it was going to the nhs
		
Click to expand...

Always tickled by the speed at which people distanced themselves from the Big Red Bus..

You are, of course, correct. The Bus did not state that the NHS was going to get another Â£350m per week.. However, it did state that the NHS was one of the areas that could be improved by the Â£350m per week that we are sending to the EU..

IIRC, the exact statement was..

"We send the EU Â£350m per week.. Let's fund the NHS instead."

So, if not the NHS, then where is the Â£350m per week going to be spent? Could I recommend using it to rebuild manufacturing in the North? We all know that the North of England is far from a Tory priority. They prefer to let us rot....


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Always tickled by the speed at which people distanced themselves from the Big Red Bus..

You are, of course, correct. The Bus did not state that the NHS was going to get another Â£350m per week.. However, it did state that the NHS was one of the areas that could be improved by the Â£350m per week that we are sending to the EU..

IIRC, the exact statement was..

"We send the EU Â£350m per week.. Let's fund the NHS instead."

So, if not the NHS, then where is the Â£350m per week going to be spent? Could I recommend using it to rebuild manufacturing in the North? We all know that the North of England is far from a Tory priority. They prefer to let us rot.... 

Click to expand...

No we should use it to rebuild our industrial base in the Midlands. 

The North has had more than its fair share over the last 30 years. 

There, something else for us all to disagree upon.


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## Mudball (Apr 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Give it a rest, it was never said it was going to the nhs
		
Click to expand...

Really.... how else do i read what was written here


----------



## Jamesbrown (Apr 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No ,just pretended it would.
		
Click to expand...

No just implied that the money could be better spent. 
The remain campaign base their entire â€œuninformedâ€ charade based on that bus, but they appear to be only group who took it literally....


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 5, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Really.... how else do i read what was written here






Click to expand...

It doesnâ€™t say â€œwe willâ€. Also that bus is not legally binding!


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## IanM (Apr 5, 2019)

Mudball said:



			and they are any better than the 600 odd folks in Westminister???
		
Click to expand...

Well, next election you get to choose!


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## IanM (Apr 5, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			No just implied that the money could be better spent.
The remain campaign base their entire â€œuninformedâ€ charade based on that bus, but they appear to be only group who took it literally....
		
Click to expand...

Actually they based their campaign around economics and trade, yet fail to grasp an economic principle taught to GCSE students in the first month.  "Opportunity cost"


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You mean the two faced brexit poster boy's like bojo and Mog,  it was there and then they killed it.
		
Click to expand...

No, I didn't mean that. The two faced Remainers like I said.ðŸ’©
I don't believe any of them that ask for a second referendum and suggest it's for any reason other than remaining.


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			So if Brexit is the reason for our economic growth slowing what is the excuse for the other EU countries?
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps 'the UK's slowing of economic growth - caused by Brexit'!


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps 'the UK's slowing of economic growth - caused by Brexit'! 

Click to expand...

Perhaps it's not.


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			No we should use it to *rebuild our industrial base in the Midlands*.

The North has had more than its fair share over the last 30 years.

There, something else for us all to disagree upon.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good idea.....
But check the  map in this article out! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40176349 

Do you really think that's going to happen?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Sounds like a good idea.....
But check the  map in this article out! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40176349 

Do you really think that's going to happen? 

Click to expand...

Well the Conservatives have more seats in the Midlands but we are pragmatic. 

We can be bought. ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Apr 5, 2019)

On the issue of growth rates, who is dropping/gaining/flat lining, you need to look at trends to date this year and forecast. And then consider the current financial figure, e.g. if someone has Â£100 with a 2% growth rate = Â£102. However, someone with Â£500 and a 1% growth rate = Â£505. The Â£2 obviously doesn't have the same spending power as Â£5.

There are currently, snapshot in time, only 3 with a flat trend. Greece with 2% of very little is still very little. Italy with close on 2% but a rising debt. They could go either way with their ambitious plans. And the UK's flat line trend. The dip the UK had late last year/early this is now a flat line.

Every other EU country, including France and Germany, has a significant downward trend. The UK, with all the negative spin, isn't doing as bad as people think, and is doing significantly better than all those countries that are cosy in the EU and don't have a (x)exit hanging over them.

Quite what it all means I haven't got a clue. I'll let you guys pick your own spin for it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2019)

Hey Grandad/Ma you are yesterday's people.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1114139815405076480


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			...
*Every other EU country, including France and Germany, has a significant downward trend*. The UK, with all the negative spin, isn't doing as bad as people think, and is doing significantly better than all those countries that are cosy in the EU and don't have a (x)exit hanging over them.

Quite what it all means I haven't got a clue. I'll let you guys pick your own spin for it.
		
Click to expand...

The 'significant downward trend' was in the *growth, not the size,* of the economy!
While for the 2 powerhouses of EU (France and Germany) *growth* might have a downward trend, it was still (marginally) greater than UK's. 

Such 'misuse' of stats (I'm pretty sure that it was accidental in this case) can be laughable/extreme! I remember Rob Muldoon (while PM) once commending the latest disastrous ones - 'spinning' that 'the *reduction of the increase of the inflation rate*' was actually evidence that his policies were working!


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## Slime (Apr 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hey Grandad/Ma you are yesterday's people.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1114139815405076480

Click to expand...


......................... and your point of offering that totally irrelevant post is?


----------



## drdel (Apr 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps 'the UK's slowing of economic growth - caused by Brexit'! 

Click to expand...

OR...., High debt in USA, EU etc and China's economy has contracted, USA has put in place sanctions, less demand for manufactured products, uncertainty in environmental regs and car production of diesels


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2019)

Slime said:



			......................... and your point of offering that totally irrelevant post is?
		
Click to expand...

It fits in perfectly with 98% of the rest of the thread? ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ˜‰


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2019)

Slime said:



			......................... and your point of offering that totally irrelevant post is?
		
Click to expand...

Keeping up appearances


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Apr 5, 2019)

Today's talks have failed apparently. Once again TM has people in but does not actually want to listen or change tack. She must be incredibly frustrating to work with or for in a situation like this.


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2019)

Absolutely loving the unintended irony of Rees-Moggs latest tweet....



So, we're to fear all of this being done to us, but strangely enough we appear to have suddenly acquired the power to thwart it!! Make your mind up guys. ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‰


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## harpo_72 (Apr 5, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Absolutely loving the unintended irony of Rees-Moggs latest tweet....
View attachment 27027


So, we're to fear all of this being done to us, but strangely enough we appear to have suddenly acquired the power to thwart it!! Make your mind up guys. ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

Wow, unknown benefit of staying in .. we can resist stuff ðŸ™„ 
What a ðŸ’


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			OR...., High debt in USA, EU etc and *China's economy has contracted*, USA has put in place sanctions, less demand for manufactured products, uncertainty in environmental regs and car production of diesels
		
Click to expand...

As per the smilies,  wasn't being particularly serious!

Your suggestion is more likely! But has China's economy actually contracted. The figures I've seen indicate 6.4% growth, slightly down from previous years, but still pretty phenomenal! Rob Muldoon (RIP) would probably have looked up to your interpretation! Mind you, when standing, he looked up to the vast majority of folk!


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Wow, unknown benefit of staying in .. we can resist stuff ðŸ™„
What a ðŸ’
		
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"Cancel Brexit lads! I think I've found a loophole in the rules!" ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Today's talks have failed apparently. Once again TM has people in but does not actually want to listen or change tack. She must be incredibly frustrating to work with or for in a situation like this.
		
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Not according to the Government side.

They claim that the talks have been constructive and both sides are considering different ways forward. 

Somewhere between the two lies the truth I expect. Just hope the talks aren't ruined by party posturing from either side.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Not according to the Government side.

They claim that the talks have been constructive and both sides are considering different ways forward.

Somewhere between the two lies the truth I expect. Just hope the talks aren't ruined by party posturing from either side.
		
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Iâ€™ve given up on Brexit, whatever happens will happen, whether itâ€™s posturing, lies, bluff, whatever, I just donâ€™t trust any of them.

Even if Brexit is delayed 12 months why canâ€™t we just say weâ€™re not taking part in the EU elelections and cancel our MEPâ€™s, Iâ€™m not sure theyâ€™ve ever been of use.

Stay in or leave, soft brexit or hard brexit, it seems like nothing else is going on!


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## Tashyboy (Apr 5, 2019)

Apologies for not reading the last dozen pages but bear with me. Now Apparently the prisoner who is out on bail and voted wearing a tag, which in essence won the last vote by one, Has broken her curfew. In essence she should not of been there and should not of been able to vote. I have read she is going back to the high court for breaking her parole. How's that right. Or is it fake news.


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Really.... how else do i read what was written here






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Where does it say that 350m will go to the nhs?


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## robinthehood (Apr 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Apologies for not reading the last dozen pages but bear with me. Now Apparently the prisoner who is out on bail and voted wearing a tag, which in essence won the last vote by one, Has broken her curfew. In essence she should not of been there and should not of been able to vote. I have read she is going back to the high court for breaking her parole. How's that right. Or is it fake news.
		
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Blah blah non story to get the rabid brexiters foaming at the mouth.


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## robinthehood (Apr 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Where does it say that 350m will go to the nhs?
		
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Come on....now your just being silly


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## Tashyboy (Apr 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Blah blah non story to get the rabid brexiters foaming at the mouth.
		
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Which bit, the one where a politician who was a solicitor broke the law then broke the law again.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Apologies for not reading the last dozen pages but bear with me. Now Apparently the prisoner who is out on bail and voted wearing a tag, which in essence won the last vote by one, Has broken her curfew. In essence she should not of been there and should not of been able to vote. I have read she is going back to the high court for breaking her parole. How's that right. Or is it fake news.
		
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Seriously Tash, were were these questions and faux outrage when she voted in March against Brexit whilst wearing the tag.
It smells of desperation mate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Which bit, the one where a politician who was a solicitor broke the law then broke the law again.
		
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She lied about speeding ffs! She wasnâ€™t out at night stealing or mugging old people.
Quite a few Coppers around Westminister who could probably vouch for whereabouts!


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Come on....now your just being silly
		
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Why am I being silly. Your the one who believes it and keeps going on about it


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## robinthehood (Apr 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Which bit, the one where a politician who was a solicitor broke the law then broke the law again.
		
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Perhaps check for other convicted mps before climbing aboard that high horse


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## robinthehood (Apr 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Why am I being silly. Your the one who believes it and keeps going on about it
		
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Lol you keep posting about it.


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			She lied about speeding ffs! She wasnâ€™t out at night stealing or mugging old people.
Quite a few Coppers around Westminister who could probably vouch for whereabouts!
		
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So itâ€™s ok for her to lie. Sheâ€™s a solicitor who should know better.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			So itâ€™s ok for her to lie. Sheâ€™s a solicitor who should know better.
		
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Were did I say that?
Sheâ€™s rightly done time and now sheâ€™s on a tag and doing her job!


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## robinthehood (Apr 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			So itâ€™s ok for her to lie. Sheâ€™s a solicitor who should know better.
		
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What about convicted and waiting sentence Chris Davies MP  con


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2019)

Is he under curfew?


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## robinthehood (Apr 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Is he under curfew?
		
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I don't know but the curfew is irrelevant.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			She lied about speeding ffs! She wasnâ€™t out at night stealing or mugging old people.
Quite a few Coppers around Westminister who could probably vouch for whereabouts!
		
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Re Brexit, what will be will be. But she is a criminal, a criminal that should not be allowed in the HOP period. The day she decided to break the law, then lie about it. She should be kicked out of office. If not where do we draw the line that it is acceptable. We are talking about a solicitor stroke MP. Yet it is still ok. No I don't think it is acceptable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Is he under curfew?
		
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People can apply for the curfew to be extended or reviewed in special circumstances, or in this case do you think Brexit is not important?


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## robinthehood (Apr 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Re Brexit, what will be will be. But she is a criminal, a criminal that should not be allowed in the HOP period. The day she decided to break the law, then lie about it. She should be kicked out of office. If not where do we draw the line that it is acceptable. We are talking about a solicitor stroke MP. Yet it is still ok. No I don't think it is acceptable.
		
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In that case rest easy as convicted fraudster Chris Davies voted against thus cancelling hers out. So in this case 2 wrongs make a right


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Re Brexit, what will be will be. But she is a criminal, a criminal that should not be allowed in the HOP period. The day she decided to break the law, then lie about it. She should be kicked out of office. If not where do we draw the line that it is acceptable. We are talking about a solicitor stroke MP. Yet it is still ok. No I don't think it is acceptable.
		
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Why shouldnâ€™t she be allowed to carry on in a job after serving a punishment ? Are we not in a society where people can rehabilitate ? There is no reason why she canâ€™t continue in her role until she is voted out. 

She has no doubt voted in other areas since but because the vote about a no deal Brexit was one vote the knives start to come out for her - where was the teddy throwing when she voted in the previous weeks 

No doubt this is all because of some viral fake news being spread around social media and people leap on it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Re Brexit, what will be will be. But she is a criminal, a criminal that should not be allowed in the HOP period. The day she decided to break the law, then lie about it. She should be kicked out of office. If not where do we draw the line that it is acceptable. We are talking about a solicitor stroke MP. Yet it is still ok. No I don't think it is acceptable.
		
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If an MP gets a 12 month or more sentence they are immediately deselected.
The Attorney General has seen fit to allow her to continue, her background is irrelevant, she is covered by Parliament Rules.
Seriously, were were these quedtions when she went down?


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## Tashyboy (Apr 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Perhaps check for other convicted mps before climbing aboard that high horse
		
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High horse, since when has stating facts come under high horse. Heres a thought if ANY MPs are convicted what about them being removed from office period. Maybe that may set an a Example of them thinking they are free to break the law without consequences


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## Tashyboy (Apr 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			In that case rest easy as convicted fraudster Chris Davies voted against thus cancelling hers out. So in this case 2 wrongs make a right
		
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Read post 8969 ðŸ‘


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Where does it say that 350m will go to the nhs?
		
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Letâ€™s be honest here - everyone is clear about what the message is saying and what the impact of the massive headline was supposed to me - itâ€™s a clear subliminal message that is â€œsuggestingâ€ that the country could spend money that normally goes to the EU could be spent on the NHS instead - any marketing exec ( which my wife is ) will tell you itâ€™s brilliant marketing and would have had the desired affected. Something doesnâ€™t have to give a direct message for it to tell the story


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			High horse, since when has stating facts come under high horse. Heres a thought if ANY MPs are convicted what about them being removed from office period. Maybe that may set an a Example of them thinking they are free to break the law without consequences
		
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What Law? Dropping litter? Doing 35 in a 30, come on Tash, people are clutching at straws, what about the 14 tory MPâ€™s who voted the same way as her?


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## Tashyboy (Apr 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If an MP gets a 12 month or more sentence they are immediately deselected.
The Attorney General has seen fit to allow her to continue, her background is irrelevant, she is covered by Parliament Rules.
Seriously, were were these quedtions when she went down?
		
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How can you ask an unknown question. When was she due for release, no one knew. Would she be released on good behaviour, who knew. Is she the first to wear tag in the HOP. I hope she is the last.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			High horse, since when has stating facts come under high horse. Heres a thought if ANY MPs are convicted what about them being removed from office period. Maybe that may set an a Example of them thinking they are free to break the law without consequences
		
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She went to jail - she paid the price and had her consequences?! Should people be punished twice for a single crime ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			How can you ask an unknown question. When was she due for release, no one knew. Would she be released on good behaviour, who knew. Is she the first to wear tag in the HOP. I hope she is the last.
		
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Eh! She was released in March! It was all over the news and the papers as she virtually went straight to HoC to vote in the earlier Brexit votes, sheâ€™s been out a month!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			She went to jail - she paid the price and had her consequences?! Should people be punished twice for a single crime ?
		
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pauldj42 said:



			Eh! She was released in March! It was all over the news and the papers as she virtually went straight to HoC to vote in the earlier Brexit votes, sheâ€™s been out a month!
		
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So released early on a tag then?   Not completed her sentence (3 months on the 29th of January) and so not complying with the conditions of her tag if there is a curfew & she was outside it.  

So as she's apparently not actually completed the punishment she was given can we please cut out the should she be punished twice moans please.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So released early on a tag then?   Not completed her sentence (3 months on the 29th of January) and so not complying with the conditions of her tag if there is a curfew & she was outside it.

So as she's apparently not actually completed the punishment she was given can we please cut out the should she be punished twice moans please.
		
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The moans are only coming because she voted on the side of this bill - if she voted against it Imo you wouldnâ€™t have heard a peep

She was rightly found guilty of crime , given a sentence of which as per most sentence been released early on a tab , why should she not now be allowed to carry on her life and represent her constituents who voted her in


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Not according to the Government side.

They claim that the talks have been constructive and both sides are considering different ways forward. 

Somewhere between the two lies the truth I expect. Just hope the talks aren't ruined by party posturing from either side.
		
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I was going off Keir Starmer comments. I've not heard what the govt said but Starmer is clearly half of the talks. I totally agree with your comments, they need to be bigger. 




Tashyboy said:



			Apologies for not reading the last dozen pages but bear with me. Now Apparently the prisoner who is out on bail and voted wearing a tag, which in essence won the last vote by one, Has broken her curfew. In essence she should not of been there and should not of been able to vote. I have read she is going back to the high court for breaking her parole. How's that right. Or is it fake news.
		
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Irrespective of what she has done her constituents are entitled to be represented. They should not be punished for her disgrace.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So released early on a tag then?   Not completed her sentence (3 months on the 29th of January) and so not complying with the conditions of her tag if there is a curfew & she was outside it.

So as she's apparently not actually completed the punishment she was given can we please cut out the should she be punished twice moans please.
		
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I believe from what I read she got permission to extend the time curfew if Parliamentry business overran, she didnâ€™t â€œwing itâ€ or get given special treatment.
My point is that we didnâ€™t get this fuss in Match when she first voted on Brexit.
Not sure what you mean by the punish twice moans mate, Iâ€™ve not said that.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The moans are only coming because she voted on the side of this bill - if she voted against it Imo you wouldnâ€™t have heard a peep

She was rightly found guilty of crime , given a sentence of which as per most sentence been released early on a tab , why should she not now be allowed to carry on her life and represent her constituents who voted her in
		
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I believe her constituency voted more than 60% in favour of Leave. 

Did her vote represent her constituents?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I believe her constituency voted more than 60% in favour of Leave.

Did her vote represent her constituents?
		
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You can aim that at plenty of the MPâ€™s in the HoC not just her. There are hundreds of MPâ€™s voting differently than what some of their constituents voted are there not ? An MP does their job to what they think is best - thatâ€™s what they are paid for are they not ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You can aim that at plenty of the MPâ€™s in the HoC not just her. There are hundreds of MPâ€™s voting differently than what some of their constituents voted are there not ? An MP does their job to what they think is best - thatâ€™s what they are paid for are they not ?
		
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Read the last line of post #8977.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Read the last line of post #8977.
		
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And ?

She is representing her constituents in the way she thinks is best as thatâ€™s why she was voted in and why she is paid to be an MP - if at the next election they think she hasnâ€™t done that job then they wonâ€™t vote for her again. 

But itâ€™s a well trodden argument and she is just doing the same as what all the other MPâ€™s are doing - some voting in a different way to what their constituents want , some in the same way.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The moans are only coming because she voted on the side of this bill - if she voted against it Imo you wouldnâ€™t have heard a peep

She was rightly found guilty of crime , given a sentence of which as per most sentence been released early on a tab , *why should she not now be allowed to carry on her life and represent her constituents who voted her in[*/QUOTE]

Because whoever set the conditions for her tag said it was past her bedtime; they apparently didn't consider that sufficient reason to extend the curfew hours or dispense with them completely.
		
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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2019)

Slime said:



			......................... and your point of offering that totally irrelevant post is?
		
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Pointing out how utterly weird the people of Engwales must be. The last Tory stronghold in the UK. 
Also mapmakers showing contempt for Orkney and Shetland again.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I believe from what I read she got permission to extend the time curfew if Parliamentry business overran, she didnâ€™t â€œwing itâ€ or get given special treatment.
My point is that we didnâ€™t get this fuss in Match when she first voted on Brexit.
Not sure what you mean by the punish twice moans mate, Iâ€™ve not said that.
		
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You didn't, the other post I quoted did.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And ?

She is representing her constituents in the way she thinks is best as thatâ€™s why she was voted in and why she is paid to be an MP - if at the next election they think she hasnâ€™t done that job then they wonâ€™t vote for her again. 

But itâ€™s a well trodden argument and she is just doing the same as what all the other MPâ€™s are doing - some voting in a different way to what their constituents want , some in the same way.
		
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She clearly was not representing her constituents. 

She was representing her view of what she thinks would be best for those constituents. 

And therein lies one of the biggest problems of resolving this mess. Too many MP's pushing their own agendas rather than acting in the interests of the democratically expressed wish of the country.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2019)

Is it confirmed that she broke her curfew without permission?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			You didn't, the other post I quoted did. 

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Sorry mate, I have certain people on ignore, Iâ€™ll take it it was one of them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



*She clearly was not representing her constituents.*

She was representing her view of what she thinks would be best for those constituents.

And therein lies one of the biggest problems of resolving this mess. Too many MP's pushing their own agendas rather than acting in the interests of the democratically expressed wish of the country.
		
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Technically she is representing them every time she makes a vote - she may not be representing their view or wishes but she is there casting the vote on behalf of them which ever way they vote


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry mate, I have certain people on ignore, Iâ€™ll take it it was one of them. 

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No problem mate.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Technically she is representing them every time she makes a vote - she may not be representing their view or wishes but she is there casting the vote on behalf of them which ever way they vote
		
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There is a strong likelihood of  a by election being forced to replace her.

Her party, both nationally and locally, are keen to replace her.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			There is a strong likelihood of  a by election being forced to replace her.

Her party, both nationally and locally, are keen to replace her.
		
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Iâ€™m sure it will happen at some point but until then she still represents them in the current voting.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m sure it will happen at some point but until then she still represents them in the current voting.
		
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Currently the views of 61% of her constituents are not being represented on this particular issue. 

Not a great advert for democracy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Currently the views of 61% of her constituents are not being represented on this particular issue.

Not a great advert for democracy.
		
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Again itâ€™s a finger you can point at many , its a point being laboured many times ðŸ™„

Donâ€™t worry  Democracy is alive and well as being shown each day with voices and votes and will continue in the future - democracy hasnâ€™t left.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What Law? Dropping litter? Doing 35 in a 30, come on Tash, people are clutching at straws, what about the 14 tory MPâ€™s who voted the same way as her?
		
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She wasn't doing 35 in a 30 though was she, that's not what she got sent down for is it. Bit extreme if that's what it was for. She got sent down for asking someone else to take the rap for it. Re the 14 Tories that voted the same way as her. They are not the first that has not voted the party line on either side of the arguement.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again itâ€™s a finger you can point at many , its a point being laboured many times ðŸ™„

Donâ€™t worry  Democracy is alive and well as being shown each day with voices and votes and will continue in the future - democracy hasnâ€™t left.
		
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Quite simple really. 

The result of the Referendum is known on a constituency basis and if the MP's reflected the wishes of their constituencies then it may have been possible to have resolved this sorry mess by now.

I appreciate that the Referendum was non-binding but if the result is not acted upon then the democratic process is severely damaged. 

And I say all of that as someone who was very strongly in the Remain camp.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 5, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was going off Keir Starmer comments. I've not heard what the govt said but Starmer is clearly half of the talks. I totally agree with your comments, they need to be bigger.




Irrespective of what she has done her constituents are entitled to be represented. They should not be punished for her disgrace.
		
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I would suggest that seeing as she has voted against her constituents wishes, she has not represented them. In fact she has done the opposite.


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## Slime (Apr 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Letâ€™s be honest here - everyone is clear about what the message is saying and what the impact of the massive headline was supposed to me - itâ€™s a clear subliminal message that is â€œsuggestingâ€ that the country *could *spend money that normally goes to the EU *could* be spent on the NHS instead - any marketing exec ( which my wife is ) will tell you itâ€™s brilliant marketing and would have had the desired affected. Something doesnâ€™t have to give a direct message for it to tell the story
		
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There's a big difference between could and would, a big difference.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 5, 2019)

Slime said:



			There's a big difference between could and would, a big difference.
		
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No point suggesting  it â€œcould â€œ and not is there.. so in the end they are looking to renege on a statement. Just another bunch of liers. 
In fact have we had any correct facts from the referendum, either side?


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## Hobbit (Apr 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			The 'significant downward trend' was in the *growth, not the size,* of the economy!
While for the 2 powerhouses of EU (France and Germany) *growth* might have a downward trend, it was still (marginally) greater than UK's.

Such 'misuse' of stats (I'm pretty sure that it was accidental in this case) can be laughable/extreme! I remember Rob Muldoon (while PM) once commending the latest disastrous ones - 'spinning' that 'the *reduction of the increase of the inflation rate*' was actually evidence that his policies were working!
		
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Maybe you misunderstood my point, and I also did point out that a lower percentage of a higher number is slight more than a high percentage of a lower number.

The graphs I drew the conclusions from were quite clear. They showed the trend for the UK was now flat lining, whilst the trend for those others quoted was still falling. Yes the others started from a higher percentage, and I didn't say they didn't.

Like I said, draw your own conclusions from it all.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2019)

Our parliamentry system has becoome a laughing stock,  the world looks on amazed at how the mother of parliaments can morph into this clown fest.  I just love the way those that have the audacity to suggest we should get on and leave the EU are being portrayed as heretics, I mean how dare they suggest the UK makes such a catastrophic move, how can it crash out of the EU, fall over a cliff, leap into the dark. Come on now no country can exist in such a vacume that exists outside the paradise of JUNKERTUSK.   

And on and on it goes, the kipper faces asking for peoples votes, conformentary votes, customs unions, warning us that the life we have become acustomised to would end, we would have to live in a zombie country without medication or lettuces, no toilet paper or drinking water, cars without camshafts and chickens that have to swim 500 meters in the local baths so they are suitable chlorine washed before meeting their fate.  When someone puts out a bit of positive news Carney gets slapped around the face with a wet haddock and is rolled out to counter it with much wailing and gnashing of fiscal teeth.  Planes won't fly, for some reason if lorries get stuck going out of the UK but can come in OK then our supermarket shelves will represent the bottom of a pegion loft, funny that, you would imagine  it would be the ones in Calais that would be short of food ðŸ¤”   

Its the poiticians, the Liberal Elete, people like Blair, Major, Heseltine, Campbell et all that keep dripping this anti British vitriol that is designed to frighten people witless.   Their plan is to weary people to a degree where they will roll over and say "do what you will, we  cant take any more of this "    

There is no way this can end well now and time will show the damage done to our democracy and government.   So much for tonight's outpouring, I'm  not going ot hold back next time though ðŸ™‹â€â™‚ï¸


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Our parliamentry system has becoome a laughing stock,  the world looks on amazed at how the mother of parliaments can morph into this clown fest.  I just love the way those that have the audacity to suggest we should get on and leave the EU are being portrayed as heretics, I mean how dare they suggest the UK makes such a catastrophic move, how can it crash out of the EU, fall over a cliff, leap into the dark. Come on now no country can exist in such a vacume that exists outside the paradise of JUNKERTUSK.  

And on and on it goes, the kipper faces asking for peoples votes, conformentary votes, customs unions, warning us that the life we have become acustomised to would end, we would have to live in a zombie country without medication or lettuces, no toilet paper or drinking water, cars without camshafts and chickens that have to swim 500 meters in the local baths so they are suitable chlorine washed before meeting their fate.  When someone puts out a bit of positive news Carney gets slapped around the face with a wet haddock and is rolled out to counter it with much wailing and gnashing of fiscal teeth.  Planes won't fly, for some reason if lorries get stuck going out of the UK but can come in OK then our supermarket shelves will represent the bottom of a pegion loft, funny that, you would imagine  it would be the ones in Calais that would be short of food ðŸ¤”  

Its the poiticians, the Liberal Elete, people like Blair, Major, Heseltine, Campbell et all that keep dripping this anti British vitriol that is designed to frighten people witless.   Their plan is to weary people to a degree where they will roll over and say "do what you will, we  cant take any more of this "   

There is no way this can end well now and time will show the damage done to our democracy and government.   So much for tonight's outpouring, I'm  not going ot hold back next time though ðŸ™‹â€â™‚ï¸
		
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I do love a good late night rant. Sweep used to be good value for those. A 10 post, frustration filled flurry at 4 in the morning was always fun to wake up to. 
On the subject of our favourite stuffed animal with a hand up his rectum, anyone seen Sweep recently?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I do love a good late night rant. Sweep used to be good value for those. A 10 post, frustration filled flurry at 4 in the morning was always fun to wake up to.
On the subject of our favourite stuffed animal with a hand up his rectum, anyone seen Sweep recently?
		
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He'll be back. He's just waiting for the right time.  ðŸ¤”


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## bluewolf (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He'll be back. He's just waiting for the right time.  ðŸ¤”
		
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Maybe a valuable lesson for us all?


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## Mudball (Apr 6, 2019)

... and we cross 9K posts!!! Thatâ€™s more posts than those who turned up at the Pro-Brexit rally ðŸ§

Very selfishly I am glad that Brexit is delayed beyond 15th May. My sofa is to be delivered around that time. The guys said they canâ€™t guarantee how long the delays at the ports will be in case of no-heal Brexit


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## bluewolf (Apr 6, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The guys said they canâ€™t guarantee how long the delays at the ports will be in case of *no-heal Brexit*

Click to expand...

Freudian slip?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 6, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I would suggest that seeing as she has voted against her constituents wishes, she has not represented them. In fact she has done the opposite.
		
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That is a fair point, LP and Metalmickie have probably covered this one. She is not alone there though. It will be interesting to see how many MPs in a similar position will lose their seats next election. 

Irrespective of how she votes though her constituents are still entitled to have someone there on their behalf.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Freudian slip?
		
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Very good one though, I think that is a keeper.


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Not according to the Government side.

They claim that the talks have been constructive and both sides are considering different ways forward.

Somewhere between the two lies the truth I expect. Just hope the talks aren't ruined by party posturing from either side.
		
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Can I translate that 2nd sentence from 'Negotiation-speak' for you......


MetalMickie said:



			...They claim that the talks have been constructive...
		
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Walls are being built!


MetalMickie said:



			...both sides are considering different ways forward.
...
		
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There is no common ground/agreement about how to proceed!


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe you misunderstood my point, and I also did point out that a lower percentage of a higher number is slight more than a high percentage of a lower number.

The graphs I drew the conclusions from were quite clear. They showed the trend for the UK was now flat lining, whilst the trend for those others quoted was still falling. Yes the others started from a higher percentage, and I didn't say they didn't.

Like I said, draw your own conclusions from it all.
		
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And please confirm that I got my point across that while (e.g. for Germany) reducing growth may be a slight concern, it's still better (at 1.5%) than the UK' (1.4%)! And the German economy (GDP) is almost 50% larger than UK's. Likewise, France grew by 1.6%, overtaking UK to go into 6th place in ranking. 

Oh, and UK wasn't exactly 'flat-lining'....2017 growth was 1.8%, so while not as large a drop as Germany's, it WAS a drop. It could even be 'spun' to be a 22% drop in growth!


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## Tashyboy (Apr 6, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry mate, I have certain people on ignore, Iâ€™ll take it it was one of them. 

Click to expand...

Your not the only one with a few on ignore ðŸ‘

PS, if you can read this your not one of them ðŸ˜‚ðŸ‘


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Currently the views of 61% of her constituents are not being represented on this particular issue.

Not a great advert for democracy.
		
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But a great demonstration of UK's version of (representative, not delegate) democracy!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 6, 2019)

I see Weatherspoon's are not doing so well.
Do you think it might be because the owners political stance has irritated 48% of his customer base.
Although, personally, I think his refusal to stock EU beers may have backfired.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 6, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is a fair point, LP and Metalmickie have probably covered this one. She is not alone there though. It will be interesting to see how many MPs in a similar position will lose their seats next election.

Irrespective of how she votes though her constituents are still entitled to have someone there on their behalf.
		
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My grief LT is this. I honestly believe she should not of been allowed to vote. And in all honesty I never knew there were other convicted MPs in the HOP. There in lies a major problem for me. No one if convicted and serves a custodial sentance should set foot in the HOP. These people who pass the laws that govern this country are breaking them. She was caught speeding. Hands up those that have not been caught. But she then went on to try and get someone else to take the SP 30. 
I totally agree that her constituents should be represented, or at least some of them. She is not the first and won't be the last to vote against her constituents wishes. That in itself, well don't set me off. But not only is she back in the HOP, she has shown no shame in what she has done.


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I do love a good late night rant. Sweep used to be good value for those. A 10 post, frustration filled flurry at 4 in the morning was always fun to wake up to.
On the subject of our favourite stuffed animal with a hand up his rectum, anyone seen Sweep recently?
		
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And that was a(nother?) 4-pinter!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			My grief LT is this. I honestly believe she should not of been allowed to vote. And in all honesty I never knew there were other convicted MPs in the HOP. There in lies a major problem for me. No one if convicted and serves a custodial sentance should set foot in the HOP. These people who pass the laws that govern this country are breaking them. She was caught speeding. Hands up those that have not been caught. But she then went on to try and get someone else to take the SP 30.
I totally agree that her constituents should be represented, or at least some of them. She is not the first and won't be the last to vote against her constituents wishes. That in itself, well don't set me off. But not only is she back in the HOP, she has shown no shame in what she has done.
		
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However that negates the entire rehabilitation process that our society is built upon

What if somebody gets a conviction for affray when in their 20s but turns their life around and goes into politics.. should they be banned?

We as a society are happy for people to be convicted of crimes but once out nobody wants to give people a second chance.. which then people get into a cycle of crime if they canâ€™t put it behind them

Now not all crimes are the same.. for example Adam Johnson imo should never play footy again because his crime is too serious to play football again. On the other side if he needs money (not that I think he does) he should be able to work in an office away from kids

Sheâ€™s been voted in at the moment. Until that changes her vote and presence there canâ€™t be questioned


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## Slime (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			However that negates the entire rehabilitation process that our society is built upon

What if somebody gets a conviction for affray when in their 20s but turns their life around and goes into politics.. should they be banned?

We as a society are happy for people to be convicted of crimes but once out nobody wants to give people a second chance.. which then people get into a cycle of crime if they canâ€™t put it behind them

Now not all crimes are the same.. for example *Adam Johnson imo should never play footy again because his crime is too serious to play football again*. On the other side if he needs money (not that I think he does) he should be able to work in an office away from kids

Sheâ€™s been voted in at the moment. Until that changes her vote and presence there canâ€™t be questioned
		
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Really?
What jobs is he, therefore, eligible for in your eyes?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

Slime said:



			Really?
What jobs is he, therefore, eligible for in your eyes?
		
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Well as he is on the sex offenders register that will limit him to what jobs he will be able to carry out - he wonâ€™t be able to play professional football being on the register imo


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well as he is on the sex offenders register that will limit him to what jobs he will be able to carry out - he wonâ€™t be able to play professional football being on the register imo
		
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Just like Phil says, limits his jobs

I believe he wonâ€™t be able to work in a job with access to the public as could be deemed access to under 18s (against his licence etc)

Itâ€™s if a footballer is deemed this or not. 

An office job for example would be perfectly fine

However I suspect he is more than set up for life

I believe I read he had been buying property whilst inside to protect his wealth


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Can I translate that 2nd sentence from 'Negotiation-speak' for you......

Walls are being built!

There is no common ground/agreement about how to proceed!



Click to expand...

Whilst I don't trust the words of any politician I particularly don't trust anything emanating from Keir Starmer, a metropolitan,  champagne socialist of the worst kind.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)




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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			However that negates the entire rehabilitation process that our society is built upon

What if somebody gets a conviction for affray when in their 20s but turns their life around and goes into politics.. should they be banned?

We as a society are happy for people to be convicted of crimes but once out nobody wants to give people a second chance.. which then people get into a cycle of crime if they canâ€™t put it behind them

Now not all crimes are the same.. for example Adam Johnson imo should never play footy again because his crime is too serious to play football again. On the other side if he needs money (not that I think he does) he should be able to work in an office away from kids

Sheâ€™s been voted in at the moment. Until that changes her vote and presence there canâ€™t be questioned
		
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IMO, she shouldn't be in the HOC. In that respect I feel the rules need changing. She is, potentially, party to discussions, debates and information of a sensitive nature. For example, if there is a debate on the UK being involved in a conflict and the decision is to be made by the HOC, the Speaker may clear the public gallery because of the sensitive nature of the information that is to be discussed. Her conviction is for attempting to pervert the course of justice is a crime of dishonesty. (Have a read about how its viewed - it isn't a trivial crime because of the longstanding issues of future trust).

In plenty of sensitive jobs she wouldn't even get an interview because of her criminal record. 

As for once you've done the time you should be able to return to whatever...that doesn't apply for a whole host of crimes. Just because someone has done the time it doesn't mean their crime is 'spent.'

If she wanted to set up a solicitor again, if she hasn't been disbarred, fine. Sitting in the House, no.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			IMO, she shouldn't be in the HOC. In that respect I feel the rules need changing. She is, potentially, party to discussions, debates and information of a sensitive nature. For example, if there is a debate on the UK being involved in a conflict and the decision is to be made by the HOC, the Speaker may clear the public gallery because of the sensitive nature of the information that is to be discussed. Her conviction is for attempting to pervert the course of justice is a crime of dishonesty. (Have a read about how its viewed - it isn't a trivial crime because of the longstanding issues of future trust).

In plenty of sensitive jobs she wouldn't even get an interview because of her criminal record.

As for once you've done the time you should be able to return to whatever...that doesn't apply for a whole host of crimes. Just because someone has done the time it doesn't mean their crime is 'spent.'

If she wanted to set up a solicitor again, if she hasn't been disbarred, fine. Sitting in the House, no.
		
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Well JRM is constantly insider trading off his positions in the commons which is far more immoral


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## IainP (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 27028

Click to expand...

For me what this shows is how poor the debate has become from both sides.
The tweet doesn't try to explain a point, and neither did your post (perhaps deliberately).
I find it hard to believe that should the UK actually leave, that anyone would think  the 356 figure would drop to zero,  but of course there will be wildly differing views on what it would drop.
Also, I would think some may argue the cause and effect, i.e. is the breakdown as it is because of the restrictions.
I do think proximity will be factor, but don't have a feel for how much.
Final thought,  there wasn't a line for Europe (non EU).


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 27028

Click to expand...

I can spot the problem. That silly chart is suggesting we will not export to the EU if we leave it.  Also, don't we sell anything to countries like India or Saudi. That's just playing games with reality.


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Well JRM is constantly insider trading off his positions in the commons which is far more immoral
		
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Has he been convicted or is it just something you're heard?


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 27028

Click to expand...

Its this sort of spin and lies that don't do the Remain cause any favours at all.

UK exports to non-EU countries outstrip exports to EU countries by over Â£50bn.

The reality is the UK needs both, but lazy soundbites like the above are unintelligent.


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## robinthehood (Apr 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its this sort of spin and lies that don't do the Remain cause any favours at all.

UK exports to non-EU countries outstrip exports to EU countries by over Â£50bn.

The reality is the UK needs both, but lazy soundbites like the above are unintelligent.
		
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Its pretty obvious the point he's making.


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Its pretty obvious the point he's making.
		
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What, is the difference between that rubbish you constantly post up about what is on the side of the bus and the rubbish he posted?

They are both pointless, right up until naive idiots fall for it.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Its pretty obvious the point he's making.
		
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Yes it is, a dodgy one.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Well JRM is constantly insider trading off his positions in the commons which is far more immoral
		
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Insider dealing is illegal. Are you accusing him of breaking the law?


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## robinthehood (Apr 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What, is the difference between that rubbish you constantly post up about what is on the side of the bus and the rubbish he posted?

They are both pointless, right up until naive idiots fall for it.
		
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And  there it is, a fact a chart or whatever gets posted and the same old faces rush out to dismiss it with either with project fear or just a plain old insult. I guess if you don't see the underlying point in the tweet you really aren't the intelligent person  you'd like us to believe you are.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 6, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			My grief LT is this. I honestly believe she should not of been allowed to vote. And in all honesty I never knew there were other convicted MPs in the HOP. There in lies a major problem for me. No one if convicted and serves a custodial sentance should set foot in the HOP. These people who pass the laws that govern this country are breaking them. She was caught speeding. Hands up those that have not been caught. But she then went on to try and get someone else to take the SP 30. 
I totally agree that her constituents should be represented, or at least some of them. She is not the first and won't be the last to vote against her constituents wishes. That in itself, well don't set me off. But not only is she back in the HOP, she has shown no shame in what she has done.
		
Click to expand...

I have no problem in her being removed from her job but then her constituents should have someone else to represent them. They should not be left without someone to speak for them. 

She will be gone soon enough. Labour have chucked her out, she wont regain her seat, there is likely to be an election shortly. She is on borrowed time. She certainly doesn't come across as a likeable character so she won't be missed.


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## Dando (Apr 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Its pretty obvious the point he's making.
		
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He proving that his a bit of a twat as he saying that we wonâ€™t sell anything to the EU


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Insider dealing is illegal. Are you accusing him of breaking the law?
		
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https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...jacob-rees-moggs-hard-brexit-erg-lobby-group/

Manipulating parliament from within.. whilst pocketing how much since brexit? All tax free ofc.. 

But ofc your hero is squeaky clean.


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## Fish (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Technically she is representing them every time she makes a vote - she may not be representing their view or wishes but she is there casting the vote on behalf of them which ever way they vote
		
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But she, along with many others had a mandate which they were voted in on as an individual and representative of a party, and as such were supported by their electorates.  Many of those mandates (pledges) were said to be irrelevant of their personal beliefs and she, along with others, said they would respect the outcome of the ref as it was _our one-off time to vote_ for something and they would uphold the decision and wouldn't try to block it or change it, but along with others, she, along with many others have now reneged on those pledges. 

Both main parties have done irrevocable damage to themselves, so much so it's left the door wide open for mass voting to swing to UKIP and the Brexit Party, and if they were to merge, well, that could be interesting!

Self servicing white collar thieves the lot of them, in it for themselves only, nepotism at the highest order, I can't wait for the ballot boxes to open nationwide and see the walls crumble around most of them, but no doubt they'll be draining the expenses pot as much as they can first to get out what they can first, snouts so deep in the trough they've lost all sense of decency, honesty and integrity.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

Dando said:



			He proving that his a bit of a twat as he saying that we wonâ€™t sell anything to the EU
		
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That tweet shows the issue not my fault people donâ€™t understand that they at the moment are more than all our other exports put together

Even a 20% fall in sales to them through brexit (not saying a complete no trade agreement) but say knock 20% off due to it becoming more difficult or any reason would damage our economy .. that would be over 70 billion wiped out just 20%... now put that in perspective .. 20% off that would be the same as knocking off 50% the rest of the world .. I donâ€™t see the 20% being made up so easy ..

Thatâ€™s why itâ€™s so important

Any % knock off would be huge as they are our biggest customer


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## IainP (Apr 6, 2019)

It isn't a tweet but might be worth a nosey
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exports-to-non-eu-countries-continue-to-outstrip-eu


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

IainP said:



			It isn't a tweet but might be worth a nosey
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exports-to-non-eu-countries-continue-to-outstrip-eu

Click to expand...

Interesting read

Especially the USA part as in the tweet it was at 64 billion, itâ€™s double that on this link


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			That tweet shows the issue not my fault people donâ€™t understand that they at the moment are more than all our other exports put together

Even a 20% fall in sales to them through brexit (not saying a complete no trade agreement) but say knock 20% off due to it becoming more difficult or any reason would damage our economy .. that would be over 70 billion wiped out just 20%... now put that in perspective .. 20% off that would be the same as knocking off 50% the rest of the world .. I donâ€™t see the 20% being made up so easy ..

Thatâ€™s why itâ€™s so important

Any % knock off would be huge as they are our biggest customer
		
Click to expand...

You are 100% right. Any drop in sales will have horrendous impact. Its all well and good someone saying it might only be 5%, but that might mean one particular business sees and increase in business due to there no longer being any EU tariffs but another business might see a 70% drop.

What I was alluding to was it is inaccurate spin.

Since the vote in 2016 the balance of exports has shifted. The UK actually exports more to the rest of the world than it does to the EU.

What you posted was, imo, another version of the bus. Grab a few facts and spin an inaccurate story out of them.

We all have our own opinions of Farage/Johnson and the bus. We all know it was spin, exactly the same as the tweet you put up. You bought into it just as others bought into the bus graphic.


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			And  there it is, a fact a chart or whatever gets posted and the same old faces rush out to dismiss it with either with project fear or just a plain old insult. I guess if you don't see the underlying point in the tweet you really aren't the intelligent person  you'd like us to believe you are.
		
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I see the point. But you are blind to the fact it is no different to the bus graphic. Nice to see you're as thick as me.... but I didn't doubt that anyway.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You are 100% right. Any drop in sales will have horrendous impact. Its all well and good someone saying it might only be 5%, but that might mean one particular business sees and increase in business due to there no longer being any EU tariffs but another business might see a 70% drop.

What I was alluding to was it is inaccurate spin.

Since the vote in 2016 the balance of exports has shifted. The UK actually exports more to the rest of the world than it does to the EU.

What you posted was, imo, another version of the bus. Grab a few facts and spin an inaccurate story out of them.

We all have our own opinions of Farage/Johnson and the bus. We all know it was spin, exactly the same as the tweet you put up. You bought into it just as others bought into the bus graphic.
		
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Even with the figures wrong it makes for grim reading doesnâ€™t it? If the Eu are our biggest export than we may trade more to others but any hit to our biggest buyer canâ€™t be good


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## robinthehood (Apr 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I see the point. But you are blind to the fact it is no different to the bus graphic. Nice to see you're as thick as me.... but I didn't doubt that anyway.
		
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Deary me you just can't help your self. Its like catnip ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Even with the figures wrong it makes for grim reading doesnâ€™t it? If the Eu are our biggest export than we may trade more to others but any hit to our biggest buyer canâ€™t be good
		
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Can you not read? The EU isn't our greatest market. It was 3 years ago but it isn't now.

You posted a tweet that is inaccurate, and I compared it with the much(rightfully) discredited bus graphic. The point you're making about any loss of business I totally agree with.


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Deary me you just can't help your self. Its like catnip ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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 Yep, I'm a sucker for an idiot...


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Can you not read? The EU isn't our greatest market. It was 3 years ago but it isn't now.

You posted a tweet that is inaccurate, and I compared it with the much(rightfully) discredited bus graphic. The point you're making about any loss of business I totally agree with.
		
Click to expand...

It is tho is it not? As a single

The total of non Eu add to more than the Eu but the Eu as a single part is more than the USA is it not? Which are our second biggest arenâ€™t they?


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## jp5 (Apr 6, 2019)

EU is by far our biggest trading partner


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Can you not read? The EU isn't our greatest market. It was 3 years ago but it isn't now.

You posted a tweet that is inaccurate, and I compared it with the much(rightfully) discredited bus graphic. The point you're making about any loss of business I totally agree with.
		
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pauljames87 said:



			It is tho is it not? As a single

The total of non Eu add to more than the Eu but the Eu as a single part is more than the USA is it not? Which are our second biggest arenâ€™t they?
		
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Can you 2 you remainers stop arguing, youâ€™re confusing us leavers.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 6, 2019)

jp5 said:



			EU is by far our biggest trading partner
		
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The simple fact of geography means this is always going to be the case. The politicians who don't see this really are clueless. 

Leaving the EU is about damage limitation as far as business is concerned, particularly those exporting goods rather than services.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			It is tho is it not? As a single

The total of non Eu add to more than the Eu but the Eu as a single part is more than the USA is it not? Which are our second biggest arenâ€™t they?
		
Click to expand...

most of our trade with the EU is with a few countries and we trade with a deficit.  If I give you Â£10 and you give me back Â£8 is that sound ecconomics.  There is nothing in the EU we can't get from the rest of the world and much of it cheaper.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			most of our trade with the EU is with a few countries and we trade with a deficit.  If I give you Â£10 and you give me back Â£8 is that sound ecconomics.  *There is nothing in the EU we can't get from the rest of the world and much of it cheape*r.
		
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BMWs? Apparently they are very keen we keep buying them.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			It is tho is it not? As a single

The total of non Eu add to more than the Eu but the Eu as a single part is more than the USA is it not? Which are our second biggest arenâ€™t they?
		
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We trade with the EU with a trade defecit. We trade with the USA with a  trade surplus.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			most of our trade with the EU is with a few countries and we trade with a deficit.  If I give you Â£10 and you give me back Â£8 is that sound ecconomics.  *There is nothing in the EU we can't get from the rest of the world and much of it cheaper.*

Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s a pretty bold statement surely ? 

And if itâ€™s cheaper will it be at the same quality ? 

What will make the item that much cheaper  ?

And I donâ€™t think you can get all those French and German automobiles that seem to be popular from outside the EU


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thatâ€™s a pretty bold statement surely ?

And if itâ€™s cheaper will it be at the same quality ?

What will make the item that much cheaper  ?

And I donâ€™t think you can get all those French and German automobiles that seem to be popular from outside the EU
		
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Donâ€™t see many Lexusâ€™s compared to them for sure


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			BMWs? Apparently they are very keen we keep buying them.
		
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What about the ones they make in the USA, Canada, China and India.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What about the ones they make in the USA, Canada, China and India.
		
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Which ones are they ?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thatâ€™s a pretty bold statement surely ?

And if itâ€™s cheaper will it be at the same quality ?

What will make the item that much cheaper  ?

And I donâ€™t think you can get all those French and German automobiles that seem to be popular from outside the EU
		
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Why shouldnt products be at the same or better quality.   Most car manufacturers make cars outside the EU and there are excellent quality cars made in countries like Japan, korea, the USA and China.  Most clothing is made outside the EU, good wines and so forth.  As i have suggested, we will of course keep trading with the EU but they do not have a lever on supply, if they want to make it difficult to supply goods it wont be a problem, but they wont as the few countries where most of our trade is carried out with the EU cant afford to damage it.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which ones are they ?
		
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BMWs. Thats what he was talking about.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why shouldnt products be at the same or better quality.   Most car manufacturers make cars outside the EU and there are excellent quality cars made in countries like Japan, Corea and the USA and China.  Most clothing is made outside the EU, good wines and so forth.  As i have suggested, we will of course keep trading with the EU but they do not have a lever on supply, if they want to make it difficult to supply goods it wont be a problem.
		
Click to expand...

Why are they going to be cheaper ? Transport costs are going to be a bit higher coming from further , car imports are huge from the EU with the golf being the second biggest seller in the UK and half the cars in the top ten I believe are from the EU.

You seriously think the cars from US , Canada are going to be cheaper and from China and Korea ( already import from there ) are going to be the same quality ?


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## Slime (Apr 6, 2019)

jp5 said:



			EU is by far our biggest trading partner
		
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It may well be, but leaving doesn't mean we are banned from trading with them.
Once we've left the EU may well remain our biggest trading partner.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

Slime said:



			It may well be, but leaving doesn't mean we are banned from trading with them.
Once we've left the EU may well remain our biggest trading partner.
		
Click to expand...

It will.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

Slime said:



			It may well be, but leaving doesn't mean we are banned from trading with them.
Once we've left the EU may well remain our biggest trading partner.
		
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How much extra do you think it will cost us ?


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## Slime (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are they going to be cheaper ? Transport costs are going to be a bit higher coming from further , car imports are huge from the EU with the golf being the second biggest seller in the UK and half the cars in the top ten I believe are from the EU.

*You seriously think the cars from* US , Canada are going to be cheaper and from China and *Korea ( already import from there ) are going to be the same quality ?*

Click to expand...

I've had Korean cars for several years now and they've been easily as good in quality as any of the European cars I've had.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are they going to be cheaper ? Transport costs are going to be a bit higher coming from further , car imports are huge from the EU with the golf being the second biggest seller in the UK and half the cars in the top ten I believe are from the UK. 

You seriously think the cars from US , Canada are going to be cheaper and from China and Korea ( already import from there ) are going to be the same quality ?
		
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Well, the Koreans have enough faith in their product to offer five year warranties unlike the supposed 'quality' German marques...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

Slime said:



			I've had Korean cars for several years now and they've been easily as good in quality as any of the European cars I've had.
		
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So we are already importing them ? And whilst Hyundai and Kia make very good cars - they arenâ€™t at the level of the BMWâ€™s etc


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

Slime said:



			I've had Korean cars for several years now and they've been easily as good in quality as any of the European cars I've had.
		
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There lies the problem though.: the japs and the Koreans make better cars in terms of reliability yet people want to pay for the badge 

Give me a Lexus over a bmw any day of the week but people prefer the brand


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are they going to be cheaper ? Transport costs are going to be a bit higher coming from further , car imports are huge from the EU with the golf being the second biggest seller in the UK and half the cars in the top ten I believe are from the EU.

You seriously think the cars from US , Canada are going to be cheaper and from China and Korea ( already import from there ) are going to be the same quality ?
		
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Are you kidding. Are you really suggesting cars made in countries like Japan , Korea, the Usa and China are lower quality?  As i have already explained they make BMWs in the USA, Canada, India and China. I wasnt only talking about cars, the EU is a protectionist outfit and applies tariffs to imports so they can protect inefficient industries like farming, if we were out the EU we could buy these products without high import tariffs added.  The same goes for clothing and many products.


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## drdel (Apr 6, 2019)

Red herring - You need to recognise that the showroom price of a car is not based on manufactured cost but what the market will bear (just like pretty much everything else). 

For example BMW make X5 in North America and happily ship to UK with a healthy markup as do many other manufacturing companies. Cost minimisation is a completely different strategy.


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## drdel (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are they going to be cheaper ? Transport costs are going to be a bit higher coming from further , car imports are huge from the EU with the golf being the second biggest seller in the UK and half the cars in the top ten I believe are from the EU.

You seriously think the cars from US , Canada are going to be cheaper and from China and Korea ( already import from there ) are going to be the same quality ?
		
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Red herring - You need to recognise that the showroom price of a car is not based on manufactured cost but what the market will bear (just like pretty much everything else). 

For example BMW make X5 in North America and happily ship to UK with a healthy markup as do many other manufacturing companies. Cost minimisation is a completely different strategy.


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## Leftie (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You seriously think the cars from US , Canada are going to be cheaper and from China and Korea ( already import from there ) are going to be the same quality ?
		
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If quality is linked to reliability, I don't know why anyone would want to buy a Merc or BMW.  30th and 31st respectively in Warrenty Direct's reliability list.

https://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer

Porche came 37th out of 40 - but we all know why some men buy Porches (and BMW's) , don't we


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you kidding. Are you really suggesting cars made in countries like Japan , Korea, the Usa and China are lower quality?  As i have already explained they make BMWs in the USA, Canada, India and China. I wasnt only talking about cars, the EU is a protectionist outfit and applies tariffs to imports so they can protect inefficient industries like farming, if we were out the EU we could buy these products without high import tariffs added.  The same goes for clothing and many products.
		
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Cars was just a example and itâ€™s pretty good one - my wife has a Kia and itâ€™s a decent car but the equivalent German is a better quality car. BMW make cars outside the EU for outside the EU market - we arenâ€™t going to suddenly start importing the BMW from the factory in the US any cheaper - but indirectly itâ€™s still from the EU company is it not ? 

We already import cars from Japan or they build them in the UK already , Korea we import already

Which Indian and Chinese makes will replace the German or French makes ?

Do you really think itâ€™s cheap to import a US car ? There is nothing stopping people importing US cars already but they donâ€™t really make models that are suitable for the UK market
You stated that we could replace any imports we have from the EU cheaper from outside the EU - so as I asked , why would they be cheaper ? Why wouldnâ€™t we already be importing these items if they are cheaper for us ?

You are making â€œstatementsâ€ of fact without actually knowing if it will happen or not. I donâ€™t understand this belief that everything becomes cheaper for the same product - we arenâ€™t banned from importing from outside the EU


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So we are already importing them ? And whilst Hyundai and Kia make very good cars - they arenâ€™t at the level of the BMWâ€™s etc
		
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My last company car was a BMW 420 gran coupe - its was like stepping back in time. It was cwap. My current car is a Kia Niro hybrid. I'd happily buy another. I wouldn't buy a BMW. I'd never, ever have another Merc. I would have another Audi A6.

I wonder why Kia give a 7 year warranty? A flawed marketing ploy for a product that falls apart?

By the way, Kia's imported into the EU don't have a tariff applied. The UK won't buy models of cars they can buy now any cheaper post-Brexit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

Leftie said:



			If quality is linked to reliability, I don't know why anyone would want to buy a Merc or BMW.  30th and 31st respectively in Warrenty Direct's reliability list.

https://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer

Porche came 37th out of 40 - but we all know why some men buy Porches (and BMW's) , don't we  

Click to expand...

People want the VWâ€™s , the Mercs etc - they are popular along with the Fords - I personally wouldnâ€™t buy one but many do


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## USER1999 (Apr 6, 2019)

Have a Merc, and two BMWs. Love them all, and would not buy anything else.

That said, my Chrysler was ridiculously cheap to run, and reliable too.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Cars was just a example and itâ€™s pretty good one - my wife has a Kia and itâ€™s a decent car but the equivalent German is a better quality car. BMW make cars outside the EU for outside the EU market - we arenâ€™t going to suddenly start importing the BMW from the factory in the US any cheaper - but indirectly itâ€™s still from the EU company is it not ?

We already import cars from Japan or they build them in the UK already , Korea we import already

Which Indian and Chinese makes will replace the German or French makes ?

Do you really think itâ€™s cheap to import a US car ? There is nothing stopping people importing US cars already but they donâ€™t really make models that are suitable for the UK market
You stated that we could replace any imports we have from the EU cheaper from outside the EU - so as I asked , why would they be cheaper ? Why wouldnâ€™t we already be importing these items if they are cheaper for us ?

You are making â€œstatementsâ€ of fact without actually knowing if it will happen or not. I donâ€™t understand this belief that everything becomes cheaper for the same product - we arenâ€™t banned from importing from outside the EU
		
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Are you being deliberately obtuse.  You picked up on a comment I made in reply to HK where he asked where we would get BMWs from if we didnt get them from the EU.  I  said we could get them from other countries where they are made outside the EU, the USA being one of them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you being deliberately obtuse.  You picked up on a comment I made in reply to HK where he asked where we would get BMWs from if we didnt get them from the EU.  I  said we could get them from other countries where they are made outside the EU, the USA being one of them.
		
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So Iâ€™ll ask again - why would it be cheaper to import a car made by an EU manufacturer from the US ?

Letâ€™s use VW for example - they produce cars for local markets - one of their cars is the second best seller in the UK , how do we get it cheapet when we leave the EU

Just trying to find some substance behind your statement


SocketRocket said:



			most of our trade with the EU is with a few countries and we trade with a deficit.  If I give you Â£10 and you give me back Â£8 is that sound ecconomics.  *There is nothing in the EU we can't get from the rest of the world and much of it cheaper.*

Click to expand...


I believe Automobiles are our second biggest import into the UK ? So why are we going to get those automobiles cheaper that we import from the EU from outside the EU  ?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So Iâ€™ll ask again - why would it be cheaper to import a car made by an EU manufacturer from the US ?

Letâ€™s use VW for example - they produce cars for local markets - one of their cars is the second best seller in the UK , how do we get it cheapet when we leave the EU

Just trying to find some substance behind your statement



I believe Automobiles are our second biggest import into the UK ? So why are we going to get those automobiles cheaper that we import from the EU from outside the EU  ?
		
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Try reading what i said. "There is nothing in the EU we can't get from the rest of the world and MUCH of it cheaper"  I didn't say EVERYTHING cheaper.  My point was we have nothing to fear regarding trade with the EU, we can get products to replace them if needed. Obviously not the exact same make but I didn't think anyone would be silly enough to suggest that.  As i have explained to you more than once the BMWs from outside was another reply to HK but you seem to want to ignore that.   Also, the EU don't have exclusivity on quality control, its now very good in most of the world.
I haven't suggested people don't buy VWs or BMWs, that would be stupid, I am saying if the EU wanted to make buying them difficult people have alternative choices and it would only be the EU manufacturers that would suffer.

Regarding the price of imported automobiles, if we imported them from outside the EU with zero tariffs then they could be cheaper than what we pay now as we have to apply EU tariffs.


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So Iâ€™ll ask again - why would it be cheaper to import a car made by an EU manufacturer from the US ?

Letâ€™s use VW for example - they produce cars for local markets - one of their cars is the second best seller in the UK , how do we get it cheapet when we leave the EU

Just trying to find some substance behind your statement



I believe Automobiles are our second biggest import into the UK ? So why are we going to get those automobiles cheaper that we import from the EU from outside the EU  ?
		
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http://madb.europa.eu/madb/indexPubli.htm

Above is the EU Commission's own database on tariffs.

2 quick ones. There isn't tariffs on cars from South Korea, e.g. Kia & Hyundai. There is a 10% tariff on cars from the USA.

As a separate issue, VAT. A minimum uniform VAT rate is set by the EU. Potentially, post-Brexit the VAT rate could be 'played with.'


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Try reading what i said. "There is nothing in the EU we can't get from the rest of the world and MUCH of it cheaper"  I didn't say EVERYTHING cheaper.  My point was we have nothing to fear regarding trade with the EU, we can get products to replace them if needed. Obviously not the exact same make but I didn't think anyone would be silly enough to suggest that.  As i have explained to you more than once the BMWs from outside was another reply to HK but you seem to want to ignore that.   Also, the EU don't have exclusivity on quality control, its now very good in most of the world.
I haven't suggested people don't buy VWs or BMWs, that would be stupid, I am saying if the EU wanted to make buying them difficult people have alternative choices and it would only be the EU manufacturers that would suffer.
		
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Again - â€œwhy will it be cheaper from outside the EU â€œ - itâ€™s just a simple question. 

If something is cheaper to import from outside the EU why wouldnâ€™t we be doing it already ? Food , clothing , medicines etc.

Is it about 50% of imports from the EU - if we leave with no deal those imports will be affected , charges im sure will apply along the way , and those charges will filter down to the customer - us

Iâ€™m just trying to get some substance from you that those billions of pounds worth of imports from the EU are as easily replaced as you suggest and cheaper.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



http://madb.europa.eu/madb/indexPubli.htm

Above is the EU Commission's own database on tariffs.

2 quick ones. There isn't tariffs on cars from South Korea, e.g. Kia & Hyundai. There is a 10% tariff on cars from the USA.

As a separate issue, VAT. A minimum uniform VAT rate is set by the EU. Potentially, post-Brexit the VAT rate could be 'played with.'
		
Click to expand...


You provide answers that I can understand and arenâ€™t afraid to be blunt

So the question I ask is 

We arenâ€™t banned from importing anything from other countries ? Obviously we have trade deals with the EU etc that allow us to trade freely and easily and low cost ( not including mark ups etc )

We leave the EU with no deal and approx 50% of our imports ( is exports the same ? ) will suddenly have tariffs applied to them ? Those tarrifs will transfer to the customer I believe

So the customer will look outside the EU for this 50% gap in the imports that we need - are we going to be able to fill that gap and why would it be cheaper for us as what SR is suggesting


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We leave the EU with no deal and approx 50% of our imports ( is exports the same ? ) will suddenly have tariffs applied to them ? Those tarrifs will transfer to the customer I believe

So the customer will look outside the EU for this 50% gap in the imports that we need - are we going to be able to fill that gap and why would it be cheaper for us as what SR is suggesting
		
Click to expand...

There was a report recently that said that currently 80% of our goods are imported tariff free and that would rise to 87% under plans for when (if) we leave. On my Kindle so can't post a link but will try to find the report later.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again - â€œwhy will it be cheaper from outside the EU â€œ - itâ€™s just a simple question.

If something is cheaper to import from outside the EU why wouldnâ€™t we be doing it already ? Food , clothing , medicines etc.

Is it about 50% of imports from the EU - if we leave with no deal those imports will be affected , charges im sure will apply along the way , and those charges will filter down to the customer - us

Iâ€™m just trying to get some substance from you that those billions of pounds worth of imports from the EU are as easily replaced as you suggest and cheaper.
		
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I did explain that to you. The EU apply import tariffs on many goods we import from outside the EU, these prices will be passed to the consumer. If we apply lower or zero tarrifs on these goods when out the EU the goods will be cheaper to buy. We don't apply tarrifs to exports, that's up to the country we export to.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I did explain that to you. The EU apply import tariffs on many goods we import from outside the EU, these prices will be passed to the consumer. If we apply lower or zero tarrifs on these goods when out the EU the goods will be cheaper to buy. We don't apply tarrifs to exports, that's up to the country we export to.
		
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....-eu-face-9bn-tariff-bill-under-no-deal-brexit

So what about this forecast of Â£9bn extra tariffs 

And this says cars possibly having an extra Â£1k on them 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-47551266

This is another report that reads not great 

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-13...mports-from-outside-the-eu-in-no-deal-brexit/


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## drdel (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How much extra do you think it will cost us ?
		
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Its possible they'll charge us tariffs and we'll charge them - it of course depends on what and at what levels so who knows?


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I can spot the problem. That silly chart is suggesting we will not export to the EU if we leave it....
		
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To me, it's doing not anything of the sort! But it IS 'graphically' showing how much of UK's exports are with the EU


SocketRocket said:



			... Also, don't we sell anything to countries like India or Saudi. That's just playing games with reality.
		
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Er...Saudi is the entry labelled....'Saudi...'! And if you notice, those non-EU countries are in order of value. India would probably be the next entry.

It's certainly attempting, and succeeding imo, to make a point - that exports to 'the EU' are very important to the UK. A counter argument could easily be made that treating the EU as if it's a single country is not valid - but that's a (historic, because of UK's membership of the group) categorisation that works for those trying to (corruptly?) use statistics to support their argument!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its possible they'll charge us tariffs and we'll charge them - it of course depends on what and at what levels so who knows?
		
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However if we go onto WTO tariffs we have them imposed without the position to change them easily


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You provide answers that I can understand and arenâ€™t afraid to be blunt

So the question I ask is

We arenâ€™t banned from importing anything from other countries ? Obviously we have trade deals with the EU etc that allow us to trade freely and easily and low cost ( not including mark ups etc )

We leave the EU with no deal and approx 50% of our imports ( is exports the same ? ) will suddenly have tariffs applied to them ? Those tarrifs will transfer to the customer I believe

So the customer will look outside the EU for this 50% gap in the imports that we need - are we going to be able to fill that gap and why would it be cheaper for us as what SR is suggesting
		
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First of all, why will EU imports be subject to tariffs? They might if the EU apply tariffs to UK products but at present we don't know if the UK govt will apply tariffs, and may only do so in response to EU tariffs - - note, tariff wars don't usually help anyone, although the USA isn't doing too badly with its current protectionist attitude. I wonder if the EU will be difficult with its second biggest supplier of medicines after Switzerland?

Yes we aren't banned from importing from the rest of the world but at present some products are subjected to EU imposed tariffs and quotas(limits). If the UK left the EU the UK could drop the tariffs imposed on products from the rest of the world. However, people shouldn't get too carried away by the thought of tariffs coming off lots of products - a quick look through the tariff rates in the attachment to my last post on common products will show that the EU isn't as hugely protectionist as it used to be.

The "50% gap;" why will the UK stop importing those 50% of products from the EU? There's no reason for the UK to stop importing those products. If tariffs are applied to them, in response to tariffs from the EU, will the product price rise by the same percentage as the tariff applied? The UK could drop a few % off corporation tax, which the EU really does fear as that also attracts companies into a country - that's how Ireland turned around its recession and also why the EU has continued to chase the Irish govt, including fines, and companies who have set up there. The UK could also clip a bit off the EU regulated VAT rates.... end result; the price to the consumer could stay the same. That would also attract business to the UK.

For non-EU countries a Brexited Britain, without tariffs and quotas is a bigger market than it currently is, BUT they know the UK will be desperate to trade. Don't expect big favours, and tough negations will occur. A low tax Singapore-esque economy is a very attractive but if the UK govt's tax revenue drops who pays for the NHS? Think of it as a Chinese tile puzzle. Move all the tiles around might find different solutions, some of them great but it is a huge change of philosophy and structure to bring in those changes.

What no one knows is how trade will be hit. That also applies to the EU. For every horror story, some of which to be fair are real, there is often a counter story that is equally valid. Here's a thought, who is the EU's biggest trading partner? Not an individual EU country's biggest trading partner, e.g. Germany and the USA, but who is the EU's biggest net partner across all of the EU27? I've not followed it through but its allegedly the UK. Does the EU really want to hurt so many businesses in the EU?


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I did explain that to you. The EU apply import tariffs on many goods we import from outside the EU, these prices will be passed to the consumer. If we apply lower or zero tarrifs on these goods when out the EU the goods will be cheaper to buy. We don't apply tarrifs to exports, that's up to the country we export to.
		
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Not quite!

The EU require us (the UK) to apply tariffs on many.....

Whether the goods *wil*l be 'cheaper to buy' for the consumer, or simply 'cheaper, so more profitable' for the supply chain is a separate question. But potentially all (except maybe HMRC) should benefit.


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Well JRM is constantly insider trading off his positions in the commons which is far more immoral
		
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Evidence please!

Otherwise mere speculation - or even libelous comment!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Evidence please!

Otherwise mere speculation - or even libelous comment!
		
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Sorry I thought this thread wasnâ€™t about evidence.. was about believing in something so much it became truth.. 

Thatâ€™s what the last 200 pages feel like for sure.


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## robinthehood (Apr 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			To me, it's doing not anything of the sort! But it IS 'graphically' showing how much of UK's exports are with the EU

Er...Saudi is the entry labelled....'Saudi...'! And if you notice, those non-EU countries are in order of value. India would probably be the next entry.

It's certainly attempting, and succeeding imo, to make a point - that exports to 'the EU' are very important to the UK. A counter argument could easily be made that treating the EU as if it's a single country is not valid - but that's a (historic, because of UK's membership of the group) categorisation that works for those trying to (corruptly?) use statistics to support their argument!
		
Click to expand...

Nice to see someone paying attention


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...jacob-rees-moggs-hard-brexit-erg-lobby-group/

*Manipulating parliament from within.. whilst pocketing how much since brexit?* All tax free ofc..

But ofc your hero is squeaky clean.
		
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'Manipulating parliament' is commonly known as 'politics'! In fact, both major parties openly participant, at public expence, in that 'game'! It's called Whipping!


pauljames87 said:



			Sorry I thought this thread wasnâ€™t about evidence.. was about believing in something so much it became truth..

Thatâ€™s what the last 200 pages feel like for sure.
		
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So are you going to produce evidence?

Or simply continue to (potentially) libel JMR?!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			'Manipulating parliament' is commonly known as 'politics'! In fact, both major parties openly participant, at public expence, in that 'game'! It's called Whipping!

So are you going to produce evidence?

Or simply continue to (potentially) libel JMR?!
		
Click to expand...

He personally would benefit from a hard brexit for one. The Eu want to stop tax evasion by declaring companies in other countries (which has made him millions and not cost him tax) so he is a hard core Brexiter. Pushing for it and blocking any soft brexit 

How is that not benefiting from his position? Which is insider trading as he can influence directly the laws of the country for his own financial gain

The man is pure scum.


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			That tweet shows the issue not my fault people donâ€™t understand that they at the moment are more than all our other exports put together

Even a 20% fall in sales to them through brexit (not saying a complete no trade agreement) but say knock 20% off due to it becoming more difficult or any reason would damage our economy .. that would be over 70 billion wiped out just 20%... now put that in perspective .. 20% off that would be the same as knocking off 50% the rest of the world .. I donâ€™t see the 20% being made up so easy ..

Thatâ€™s why itâ€™s so important

Any % knock off would be huge as they are our biggest customer
		
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While I agree with some of what you are saying, there's a bit more involved than simply 'exports'! Much of those exports simply use UK as a convenient staging post for onward shipping of goods to the rest of EU. So while those 'exports' benefits would likely go, so would a certain amount of import 'cost'.

And remember the the EU doesn't buy anything from the UK! It's the 27 other members that do so!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry I thought this thread wasnâ€™t about evidence.. was about believing in something so much it became truth..

Thatâ€™s what the last 200 pages feel like for sure.
		
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I take it you are aware that posting libellous accusations online does not exclude you from prosecution. JRM probably doesn't read this forum but its a small world.  Take care.


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			He personally would benefit from a hard brexit for one. The Eu want to stop tax evasion by declaring companies in other countries (which has made him millions and not cost him tax) so he is a hard core Brexiter. Pushing for it and blocking any soft brexit

How is that not benefiting from his position? Which is insider trading as he can influence directly the laws of the country for his own financial gain

The man is pure scum.
		
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That's not 'insider trading' though!

You should either produce evidence of real (illegal) insider trading or withdraw the accusation!

Believing he's 'pure scum' is, however, an opinion to which you are perfectly, if imo misguidedly, entitled to.


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## Fish (Apr 6, 2019)

Those pro remainers should absorb this....


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			However if we go onto WTO tariffs we have them imposed without the position to change them easily
		
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No. We can set them but must use them uniformly.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 6, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47551266

And this quite frankly is what boils my piss. The government release this information stating that 87% of imports will be tariff free. At the moment it is 80%, With the current EU trade deals. So in essence we still need to stay in Europe and pay Billions to get a worse bloody deal.
Remainers and MPs that want an extension need to open there closed eyes.
		
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I posted this on March 13th, post 6708 nowt was said then. ðŸ‘


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			That tweet shows the issue not my fault people donâ€™t understand that they at the moment are more than all our other exports put together

Even a 20% fall in sales to them through brexit (not saying a complete no trade agreement) but say knock 20% off due to it becoming more difficult or any reason would damage our economy .. that would be over 70 billion wiped out just 20%... now put that in perspective .. 20% off that would be the same as knocking off 50% the rest of the world .. I donâ€™t see the 20% being made up so easy ..

Thatâ€™s why itâ€™s so important

Any % knock off would be huge as *they are our biggest customer*

Click to expand...

Please explain what we sell specifically to 'the EU' - as opposed to 'the 27 (other) EU member countries'! Germany is our biggest customer, followed by Netherlands, France and Ireland. The fact that they are all EU members is simply geographic/convenience!


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Since the vote in 2016 the balance of exports has shifted. The UK actually exports more to the rest of the world than it does to the EU.
		
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Shifted? Not according to this Gov.UK article! https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exports-to-non-eu-countries-continue-to-outstrip-eu


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We trade with the EU with a trade defecit. We trade with the USA with a  trade surplus.
		
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I'm pleased to see you've finally worked out what the term 'trade' actually means!


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, the Koreans have enough faith in their product to offer five year warranties unlike the supposed 'quality' German marques...
		
Click to expand...

Wrong!





At least for Kia!




They offer 7 year warranties!


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

Leftie said:



			If quality is linked to reliability, I don't know why anyone would want to buy a Merc or BMW.  30th and 31st respectively in Warrenty Direct's reliability list.

https://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer

Porche came 37th out of 40 - but we all know why some men buy Porches (and BMW's) , don't we  

Click to expand...

I've bought German, UK and Japanese made cars, along with NZ assembled Japanese and UK ones.

Bottom of the scale for quality were UK ones. Others were all pretty similar 'quality' but I've always preferred the German 'feel' - older UK cars (that I grew up riding in/driving) were similar.


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which ones are they ?
		
Click to expand...

Check out where the various models of BMW are acrtually made!


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Have a Merc, and two BMWs. Love them all, and would not buy anything else.

That said, my Chrysler was ridiculously cheap to run, and reliable too.
		
Click to expand...

Based on Mercedes?
Chrysler is, after all, owned by Mercedes (Daimler-Benz)!

Generally though, 'traditional' US cars don't 'transfer' well to the European market! US's spacious, easy driving, cheaply fuelled style doesn't fit with Europe's more restricted approach!


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are they going to be cheaper ? Transport costs are going to be a bit higher coming from further , car imports are huge from the EU with the golf being the second biggest seller in the UK and half the cars in the top ten I believe are from the EU.

You seriously think the cars from US , Canada are going to be cheaper and from China and Korea ( already import from there ) are going to be the same quality ?
		
Click to expand...

Technology and labour are (or at least were when I was involved) the major costs for car manufacture - and Asia is/was far ahead of Europe in performance in both catagories! Transport  was a, somewhat surprisingly, significantly smallr consideration!


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....-eu-face-9bn-tariff-bill-under-no-deal-brexit

So what about this forecast of Â£9bn extra tariffs
...
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should actually read the article rather than simply just the headline!



Liverpoolphil said:



			...

And this says cars possibly having an extra Â£1k on them

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-47551266
...
		
Click to expand...

So what...Buy a different brand!



Liverpoolphil said:



			...
This is another report that reads not great

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-13...mports-from-outside-the-eu-in-no-deal-brexit/

Click to expand...

That's twaddle! Buyers would simply adjust - buying non-EU brands


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## Leftie (Apr 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I've bought German, UK and Japanese made cars, along with NZ assembled Japanese and UK ones.

Bottom of the scale for quality were UK ones. Others were all pretty similar 'quality' but I've always preferred the German 'feel' - older UK cars (that I grew up riding in/driving) were similar.
		
Click to expand...

Very strange reply from you Foxy.   My post in reply to LP started with "If quality is linked to reliability" and I linked to a list which was produced by (supposedly) experts *this year, 2019. * This clearly demonstrates that Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche and VW have produced cars that are currently way below average for reliability - yet you decided to go off on a tangent about cars that you had bought and/or grown up with in the past. 

You may well prefer the German "feel" (no sniggering at the back of the class please Smithers) of earlier cars, but that was not the discussion.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Based on Mercedes?
Chrysler is, after all, owned by Mercedes (Daimler-Benz)!

Generally though, 'traditional' US cars don't 'transfer' well to the European market! US's spacious, easy driving, cheaply fuelled style doesn't fit with Europe's more restricted approach!
		
Click to expand...

Isn't Chrysler owned by Fiat (a watchword for reliability and build quality)?


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## Slime (Apr 7, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So we are already importing them ? And whilst Hyundai and Kia make very good cars - *they arenâ€™t at the level of the BMWâ€™s* etc
		
Click to expand...

Quality wise, in regards to plain reliability, I'd say they are as good as any car.
They may not be on a level with BMW in regards to performance, optional extras or, indeed, standard equipment but they are also not on a level with BMW in regards to price or running costs!!
Give me my KIA and several thousand pounds in my pocket over any BMW I've ever owned.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Isn't Chrysler owned by Fiat (a watchword for reliability and build quality)?
		
Click to expand...

Oops - good point! I forgot Mercedes wasn't the end of the 'Chrysler sold' story! Indeed Fiat is current owner. Indeed, Mercedes 'got lucky' selling it when it did!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2019)

Slime said:



			Quality wise, in regards to plain reliability, I'd say they are as good as any car.
They may not be on a level with BMW in regards to performance, optional extras or, indeed, standard equipment but they are also not on a level with BMW in regards to price or running costs!!
Give me my KIA and several thousand pounds in my pocket over any BMW I've ever owned.
		
Click to expand...

I feel the same towards my Hyundai compared with a series of Mercs I owned. 

Also, depending upon spec the level of standard equipment compares favourably. 

Yes the Mercs were superior cars but I am not certain that justified the difference in costs.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 7, 2019)

As the person who originally mentioned BMWs as a play on the much mentioned quote by leavers that the German car industry proves that they need us as much as we need them then I am sorry. 

The last few pages have been like Top Gear, not the Clarkson version but the Chris Goffey days. And no one who has an Audi says 'I wish I had a Hyundai instead'


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2019)

Leftie said:



			Very strange reply from you Foxy.   My post in reply to LP started with "If quality is linked to reliability" and I linked to a list which was produced by (supposedly) experts *this year, 2019. * This clearly demonstrates that Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche and VW have produced cars that are currently way below average for reliability - yet you decided to go off on a tangent about cars that you had bought and/or grown up with in the past.

You may well prefer the German "feel" (no sniggering at the back of the class please Smithers) of earlier cars, but that was not the discussion.
		
Click to expand...

Seems you prefer 'one-liner' replies to explanations!

In my post, 1st para provides the background to the 1st part of the 2nd para - the summary! Surely you noticed the word 'quality' in there. And while that report may have been produced in 2019, the cars in that report are, generally, not 2019 ones! So 'in the past' is totally relevant - at least 5+ years!


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So we are already importing them ? And whilst Hyundai and Kia make very good cars - they arenâ€™t at the level of the BMWâ€™s etc
		
Click to expand...

I'd suggest you go test drive and check 'cost of ownership' over 5+ years, or however long you keep (your own) cars for. I'm pretty sure 'BMWs etc' are 'taking significant advantage of their image', while Hyundai and Kia are (probably) using a different pricing model!


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			As the person who originally mentioned BMWs as a play on the much mentioned quote by leavers that *the German car industry proves that they need us* as much as we need them then I am sorry.

The last few pages have been like Top Gear, not the Clarkson version but the Chris Goffey days. And no one who has an Audi says 'I wish I had a Hyundai instead'
		
Click to expand...

You may regret introducing the concpt, but it would suggest that you were totally correct! Whether UK actually needs the German car industry though....!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			As the person who originally mentioned BMWs as a play on the much mentioned quote by leavers that the German car industry proves that they need us as much as we need them then I am sorry. 

The last few pages have been like Top Gear, not the Clarkson version but the Chris Goffey days. And no one who has an Audi says 'I wish I had a Hyundai instead'
		
Click to expand...

It's OK if I wanted a VW I would buy one and not pay the unjustified Audi premium. 

And as for going off topic,  well we have got nowhere over the last  near three years by sticking to the subject.


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## Leftie (Apr 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Seems you prefer 'one-liner' replies to explanations!



In my post, 1st para provides the background to the 1st part of the 2nd para - the summary! Surely you noticed the word 'quality' in there. And while that report may have been produced in 2019, the cars in that report are, generally, not 2019 ones! So 'in the past' is totally relevant - at least 5+ years!
		
Click to expand...

Yaawwwnnnn


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again - â€œwhy will it be cheaper from outside the EU â€œ - itâ€™s just a simple question.

If something is cheaper to import from outside the EU why wouldnâ€™t we be doing it already ? Food , clothing , medicines etc.
...
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps  I could try to explain...

If the cost of production is 'naturally' more expensive in EU than in another country, then EU is likely to use quotas and tariffs to 'protect' EU producers. This is a legitimate exercise used in most countries and the EU as a bloc. If the 'protection' is not relevant for UK producers, then UK would not need to apply any tariffs on 'more efficient producing' countries, which could result in the cost to import being cheaper!


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			It's OK if I wanted a VW I would buy one and not pay the unjustified Audi premium.

And as for going off topic,  well we have got nowhere over the last  near three years by sticking to the subject.
		
Click to expand...

Why not a Skoda then?

This might also be worth xhecking out...https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/vw-golf-mk7-vs-audi-a3-494


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Why not a Skoda then?

This might also be worth xhecking out...https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/vw-golf-mk7-vs-audi-a3-494

Click to expand...

Indeed,  or a Seat.

I am too old and ugly to be influenced by brand snobbery.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2019)

Leftie said:



			Yaawwwnnnn
		
Click to expand...

Indeed!


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## USER1999 (Apr 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Based on Mercedes?
Chrysler is, after all, owned by Mercedes (Daimler-Benz)!

Generally though, 'traditional' US cars don't 'transfer' well to the European market! US's spacious, easy driving, cheaply fuelled style doesn't fit with Europe's more restricted approach!
		
Click to expand...

My Chrysler was indeed based on a Mercedes. It took every thing that was good about the Mercedes driving experience, and replaced it with Chrysler. But it was reliable. And cheap to run, fuel excepted.


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## USER1999 (Apr 7, 2019)

Oh, and it was assembled in Steyr in Austria.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 7, 2019)

Like HK I wish I had never mentioned cars now, it was only meant to be a tongue in cheek reply to his comment. ðŸ˜ž


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## SocketRocket (Apr 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Like HK I wish I had never mentioned cars now, it was only meant to be a tongue in cheek reply to his comment. ðŸ˜ž
		
Click to expand...

Now how about Wine, we can get pretty good stuff from outside the EU.


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## Beezerk (Apr 7, 2019)

Christ how has this thread turned into a petrol head bore fest? ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			My Chrysler was indeed based on a Mercedes. It took every thing that was good about the Mercedes driving experience, and replaced it with Chrysler. But it was reliable. And cheap to run, fuel excepted.
		
Click to expand...

C300? Or the diabolic back-ended (probably the only rear end that looked worse than my 2000 A6) Crossfire! Never saw a Roadster in UK (and the A6 was infinitely improved by a spoiler!).


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Now how about Wine, we can get pretty good stuff from outside the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Yes there are some very nice new world wines (Lidl do a cracking Argentinian Torrentes at around 6 quid which is an absolute steal) but don't try and take my Alsace GewÃ¼rztraminer away from me or I won't be happy.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Now how about Wine, we can get pretty good stuff from outside the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed! I'm currently partaking of a Kiwi 'homage' to 'the Right Bank' (Merlot Cab-Franc blend from Hawkes Bay)! Far better imo and superior value too!

@HK..Try any Kiwi Gewurtz then! The can't, generally, compete with the Vendage Tardive or Selectian de Grains Nobles - Ned does a great attempt though - but for 'ordinary' wine they are much better value im(biased)o!


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## Hobbit (Apr 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Now how about Wine, we can get pretty good stuff from outside the EU.
		
Click to expand...




Hacker Khan said:



			Yes there are some very nice new world wines (Lidl do a cracking Argentinian Torrentes at around 6 quid which is an absolute steal) but don't try and take my Alsace GewÃ¼rztraminer away from me or I won't be happy.
		
Click to expand...

Off tangent, can I mention the cost of wine? A bottle of red Rioja Baron De Ley in Tesco at Xmas was Â£12 a bottle I buy it here in the local local supermarket for â‚¬6 = Â£5.30... a round of golf at a decent golf course, inc buggy is less than â‚¬50.

Friday night's meal in a top local restaurant for 4 people inc. drinks was â‚¬92. And as for the weekly food bill, its coming in around â‚¬50 for 2 of us.

Don't blame the EU for the cost of goods in the UK.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 7, 2019)

Sorry to go off topic from cars and wine, but really enjoyed Laura Kuenssbergs Brexit programme the other night. Found it fascinating from her effectively coaching Bojo to seeing Steve Baker in tears when he said he'd vote against Mays deal.

Whilst I think parliament have not covered themselves in glory, after listening to Brexitcast and watching this I do have a better understanding into just how hard this whole process has been for them, especially those MPs whose personal beliefs on Brexit contradict what their constituents voted for. I imagine there will be a lot of MPs who come out of this very mentally scarred.

Well worth a watch  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003wxb/the-brexit-storm-laura-kuenssbergs-inside-story


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 7, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			If we had a leave parliament we would be gone
		
Click to expand...

100% agree this to be true.

I think we would have had to make some serious compromises and would likely be out in a â€œname onlyâ€ arrangement.

How ever much we would have liked it, I doubt they would have been able to take a no deal route.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			If we had a leave parliament we would be gone
		
Click to expand...

But we haven't! 

So there has to be a way found around the 'clashing' issues of (both parties being committed to) applying 'the will of the people' and the (common sense in their view) Remainers in Parliament! And neither a 2nd referendum, nor a General Election is the way to do it imo! Far better to simply leave with 'No Deal' and negotiate satisfactory 'mini-deals' as required!


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## USER1999 (Apr 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			C300? Or the diabolic back-ended (probably the only rear end that looked worse than my 2000 A6) Crossfire! Never saw a Roadster in UK (and the A6 was infinitely improved by a spoiler!).
		
Click to expand...

W210 E class in drag. I had a W210 before, so buying was no surprise, except the handling was dog awful.


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## Mudball (Apr 7, 2019)

Been away for the weekend and looks like this thread gone to the Petrol heads..   

On another note, here is a possible solution from the tech world.. (I have no idea who he is or how credible this is)




 
_Pindar Wong is the chairman of VeriFi (Hong Kong) Ltd and a member of CoinDeskâ€™s advisory board._

There is a crisis in governance. Iâ€™m not talking about bitcoin, but Brexit.
Britainâ€™s exit from the European Union (EU) is not so much a technical crisis between a â€˜hard forkâ€™ and a â€˜soft forkâ€™ but a legitimacy crisis. Yet the solution to its core dilemma -- politically deciding between a â€˜Hard Brexitâ€™ and a â€˜Soft Brexitâ€™ -- may actually lay in harnessing blockchain technologyâ€™s great potential as an economic governance system for the digital age.
One thingâ€™s clear: the current system is failing. The impasse in Britain requires a radical rethink. Unless even more time is requested by the UK, and unanimously granted by all 27 member states of the EU, the default option is for the UK to chaotically crash out from the European trade bloc, by leaving without a legal agreement, on Friday April 12th. As laws have borders, this lack of â€˜legal certaintyâ€™ is particularly troubling as it risks disrupting  cross-border supply chain networks  which would be bad news for everyone.
Nations vs networks
Where blockchain can help is that its â€˜cryptographic certaintyâ€™ avoids the need for bordered thinking in the borderless world created by the Internet, a world where laws are difficult to enforce and collaboration difficult to incentivise.  Could thinking harder about what we mean by a â€˜borderâ€™ be the key to unlocking the current political deadlock?
Letâ€™s consider the 500km border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland and the failure to find a suitable â€˜Irish Backstopâ€™. No one -- not in EU-exiting Britain nor in EU-remaining Ireland -- wants to return to the troubled times of physical checkpoints that might place lives at risk. All agree this insurance policy should be honoured regardless of the outcome of future EU-UK trade negotiations. Even though it is never supposed to be called upon, the â€˜backstopâ€™ - a last resort to maintain the islandâ€™s open border - risks creating a regulatory border in the Irish Sea, which is unacceptable because Northern Ireland would be treated differently from the rest of UK. 
Yet Brexit is supposed to be what the acronym implies: an exit from the EU rules and self-determining the free flow of goods and services across international borders. How can policymakers come up with a solution that honors that change, reimposing tariffs and controls, while still protecting human lives?
The solution lies in rethinking the very idea of a border.
A border in time
In the Internet age, the governance borders that matter most are not bound along geographical or political lines. They are based on time, an invisible metric that is fairer and arguably the hardest of hard borders. You canâ€™t go back in time. And, if you get down to it, this concept of  â€œborder in timeâ€ is what a blockchain represents. 
That is why today Iâ€™m calling for the UK and EU governments to participate in a bottom-up process to establish a â€˜Brexit Blockchainâ€™: where customs authorities use a blockchain architecture to take the friction out of tariff enforcement by agreeing on the provenance of economic activity on a temporal, not  geographic, basis.
The key would be to use a government recognized stablecoin to lock/unlock product delivery, to incentivise deployment and to complement existing solutions for digitizing international trade from firms like the  UKâ€™s Provenance,  Denmarkâ€™s Maersk and Franceâ€™s  Carrefour .  
Individual per-product tariffs could be implemented, with automated payments made as  products move back and forth across national borders. The tariffs could be dynamically adjusted as political demands dictate; with as many borders in time, and currency-pair stablecoins, as needed. Initially only a Euro/Pound stablecoin would be used with nominal or zero tariffs enforced. This would result in a â€˜Customs networkâ€™, not a â€˜Customs Unionâ€™, though initially it would behave like one.
Donâ€™t trust, verify
When the  Withdrawal Agreement  doesnâ€™t mention the Internet (a big zero), where does one even start a multi-stakeholder process? I would start the coordination game by listening to industry at next monthâ€™s Consensus conference (May 13-15) and learn from existing international governance organizations. Then Iâ€™d take any output to the  International Organization for Standardization (ISO)/ TC307 Blockchain meeting  that will be held in Dublin, Ireland on May 27-31. Then Iâ€™d cross my fingers!
To be sure, for Britain and the EU to view governance in this manner is a pipe dream, but itâ€™s my hope that the seemingly inevitable train wreck that lies ahead for Britain will lead to some more enlightened thinking about the real problem at hand: scaling governance.
I might not get my Brexit Blockchain next month, but in the spirit of â€œfailing fast,â€ perhaps the powers-that-be will learn from this crisis and realize that they need to rewrite the rulebook -- quite literally. The top of this rulebook should read: â€˜No one is above the Law, No Nation below Mathematicsâ€™.
_-- Pindar Wong_


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## woody69 (Apr 7, 2019)

Wonder what people who voted leave will make of this https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...ow-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/


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## drdel (Apr 7, 2019)

I'd suggest a look at a German view...Alice Widely, co-leader of AfD speaking to the Bunderstag last month.. 

It's on youtube


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sorry to go off topic from cars and wine, but really enjoyed Laura Kuenssbergs Brexit programme the other night. Found it fascinating from her effectively coaching Bojo to seeing Steve Baker in tears when he said he'd vote against Mays deal.

Whilst I think parliament have not covered themselves in glory, after listening to Brexitcast and watching this I do have a better understanding into just how hard this whole process has been for them, especially those MPs whose personal beliefs on Brexit contradict what their constituents voted for. I imagine there will be a lot of MPs who come out of this very mentally scarred.

Well worth a watch  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003wxb/the-brexit-storm-laura-kuenssbergs-inside-story

Click to expand...

Poor dears.  My heart bleeds for them, maybe they can get over it and look for a proper job.
That includes Laura who is an expert at stating the bleeding obvious at a very good wage rate.


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## bluewolf (Apr 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'd suggest a look at a German view...Alice Widely, co-leader of AfD speaking to the Bunderstag last month..

It's on youtube
		
Click to expand...

That video has been linked to a few times now. However, it'd be more accurate if you said it was the view of the German Far Right. And if that's the type of view that supports your argument, then fire away. ðŸ‘


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 8, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That video has been linked to a few times now. However, it'd be more accurate if you said it was the view of the German Far Right. And if that's the type of view that supports your argument, then fire away. ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

It is a bit weird/strange/bloody frightening the response to this.  In normal times when a politician like Rees-Mogg would link to a German far Right group who according to Wikipedia _'Since about 2015, the AfD has been increasingly open to working with far-right extremist groups such as Pegida.[22] Parts of the AfD have racist,[23] Islamophobic,[24] anti-Semitic[25][26] and xenophobic[13][27][28] tendencies linked to far-right movements such as neo-Nazism[29][26] and identitarianism.[30]__[31]_ ' to forward their argument, you'd expect the response to be 'look mate, I think you've probably lost that argument'.  But it seems we are not in normal times and some people can't get enough of it. 

One may suggest it's about time we had a good look at what we are descending into, if nothing else for the sake of our children/grand children. But I doubt we will.  Strong and stable...


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## drdel (Apr 8, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That video has been linked to a few times now. However, it'd be more accurate if you said it was the view of the German Far Right. And if that's the type of view that supports your argument, then fire away. ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

I said it's worth A look. Just a suggestion to move on from stuff about cars etc!


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## bluewolf (Apr 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			I said it's worth A look. Just a suggestion to move on from stuff about cars etc!
		
Click to expand...

Hitler loved Daimlers. And we're back onto cars.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 8, 2019)

This thread from Peston is a spicy take.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1115170767602364416


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			This thread from Peston is a spicy take.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1115170767602364416

Click to expand...

He might well be right.

Personally, I'm not sure May will reach an agreement with Corbyn. I've an inkling it might be a second referendum with the choice going to the public, May's deal or revoke Article 50. At least that way the Tory party won't carry the can for revoking Article 50.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He might well be right.

Personally, I'm not sure May will reach an agreement with Corbyn. I've an inkling it might be a second referendum with the choice going to the public, May's deal or revoke Article 50. At least that way the Tory party won't carry the can for revoking Article 50.
		
Click to expand...

It should be May's deal or no Deal.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He might well be right.

Personally, I'm not sure May will reach an agreement with Corbyn.* I've an inkling it might be a second referendum with the choice going to the public*, May's deal or revoke Article 50. At least that way the Tory party won't carry the can for revoking Article 50.
		
Click to expand...

Another spicy take, I thought MPs were not that keen on that option in the indicative votes, although I have lost track of what they have voted for and how many times they've voted.  

I can just see it now degenerating into a desperate battle for which party can come out of this with the least loss of face, with each party pandering to their ever shrinking fan bases. 'He did it, no he did it, she said, he said, if it wasn't for them we would have got this through etc etc'. And in the mean time the public just lose the will to live.


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## jp5 (Apr 8, 2019)

Public vote on final deal was one of the more popular options.

Even supported by the likes of Rees-Mogg, Davis et al. once upon a time.


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## Beezerk (Apr 8, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Public vote on final deal was one of the more popular options.

Even supported by the likes of Rees-Mogg, Davis et al. once upon a time.
		
Click to expand...

But it has to be a public vote with no option to remain aka revoke article 50. Imo of course.


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## robinthehood (Apr 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			But it has to be a public vote with no option to remain aka revoke article 50. Imo of course.
		
Click to expand...

Why , surley as we are constantly told brexit is the will of the people, a50 revoke won't win anyway. So nothing to worry about....


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			But it has to be a public vote with no option to remain aka revoke article 50. Imo of course.
		
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The way forward is quite logical and straight forward.

We had a referendum that decided we will leave the EU.
We triggered article 50.
We have negotiated a withdraw agreement with the EU for two years.
Parliament cannot make a decision on the way forward.
Hold another referendum with the choice to either accept the negotiated agreement or make a clean Brexit.

Its the only true democratic way to finalise the current impasse.


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## jp5 (Apr 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			But it has to be a public vote with no option to remain aka revoke article 50. Imo of course.
		
Click to expand...

Now we've done it this way round revoke has to of course be an option.

I'd have preferred we had the referendum on which alternative first, then put that vs. our current deal. But we find ourselves where we are.


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2019)

...
'Its the only true democratic way to finalise the current impasse' 
that reflects the result of the 2016 Referendum!

However, many in Parliament (and elsewhere) have been trying to reverse that result!


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## Beezerk (Apr 8, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Now we've done it this way round revoke has to of course be an option.

I'd have preferred we had the referendum on which alternative first, then put that vs. our current deal. But we find ourselves where we are.
		
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Thatâ€™s ridiculous, so essentially for Brexit to happen it has to win three public referendums? Iâ€™d call that a rigged vote in any other country with a dodgy dictator as leader and so would the media.


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Now we've done it this way round revoke has to of course be an option.
....
		
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Why?

We've already made that decision!


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## jp5 (Apr 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Thatâ€™s ridiculous, so essentially for Brexit to happen it has to win three public referendums? Iâ€™d call that a rigged vote in any other country with a dodgy dictator as leader and so would the media.
		
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What's the third referendum?

We're only in this situation due to how badly it has been handled. When the actual alternative vs. remain is defined is when we should have had the vote. No wonder when people see what the alternative is, there may no longer be a majority to leave.

An interesting watch --


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1114954083511808006


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## Beezerk (Apr 8, 2019)

jp5 said:



			What's the third referendum?

We're only in this situation due to how badly it has been handled. When the actual alternative vs. remain is defined is when we should have had the vote. No wonder when people see what the alternative is, there may no longer be a majority to leave.
		
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Apologies I misread your other post, saying that though even another referendum is insane imo, imagine the split and damage it would cause to this country. The thing Iâ€™m seeing is remainers are finding lots of â€œwhat ifâ€ and â€œshould haveâ€ arguments to try and force another referendum, in reality whatâ€™s done is done and the victors shouldnâ€™t have to become the losers because the (anti brexit) Uk parliament are a bunch of self obsessed idiots.
Like I said pages and pages ago, itâ€™s completely irrelevant how I voted and what my feelings are on brexit, if parliament do not carry through with this and cop out, it would be an absolute disgrace of the highest order.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 8, 2019)

jp5 said:



			What's the third referendum?

We're only in this situation due to how badly it has been handled. When the actual alternative vs. remain is defined is when we should have had the vote. No wonder when people see what the alternative is, there may no longer be a majority to leave.

An interesting watch --


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1114954083511808006

Click to expand...


I posted before that one of the mysteries of our times is the number of people who claim to be left-wing while supporting the neoliberal policies of the European Union. People openly say they support membership of the EU because it maintains the supply of low-wage workers to the UK. In other words, to make their own lives easier, they want to exploit the less wealthy countries of Eastern Europe. In any other context this would be denounced as a racist but because the neoliberals also control the media it can be passed off as â€˜progressive.â€™


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## User62651 (Apr 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I posted before that one of the mysteries of our times is the number of people who claim to be left-wing while supporting the neoliberal policies of the European Union. People openly say they support membership of the EU because it maintains the supply of low-wage workers to the UK. *In other words*, to make their own lives easier, they want to exploit the less wealthy countries of Eastern Europe. In any other context this would be denounced as a racist but because the neoliberals also control the media it can be passed off as â€˜progressive.â€™
		
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Not other words, your sick words.


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## patricks148 (Apr 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sorry to go off topic from cars and wine, but really enjoyed Laura Kuenssbergs Brexit programme the other night. Found it fascinating from her effectively coaching Bojo to seeing Steve Baker in tears when he said he'd vote against Mays deal.

Whilst I think parliament have not covered themselves in glory, after listening to Brexitcast and watching this I do have a better understanding into just how hard this whole process has been for them, especially those MPs whose personal beliefs on Brexit contradict what their constituents voted for. I imagine there will be a lot of MPs who come out of this very mentally scarred.

Well worth a watch  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003wxb/the-brexit-storm-laura-kuenssbergs-inside-story

Click to expand...

i only saw i bit of it and it turned my stomach the way she flirted with the blonde buffoon. what little respect i had for her.... gone


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Apologies I misread your other post, saying that though even another referendum is insane imo, imagine the split and damage it would cause to this country. The thing Iâ€™m seeing is remainers are finding lots of â€œwhat ifâ€ and â€œshould haveâ€ arguments to try and force another referendum, in reality whatâ€™s done is done and the victors shouldnâ€™t have to become the losers because the (anti brexit) Uk parliament are a bunch of self obsessed idiots.
Like I said pages and pages ago, itâ€™s completely irrelevant how I voted and what my feelings are on brexit, if parliament do not carry through with this and cop out, it would be an absolute disgrace of the highest order.
		
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It could be argued that if another referendum is called it will be the 3rd public vote with an emphasis on Brexit. May called her ill-fated GE with a manifesto pledge for Brexit. Labour likewise had it as a manifesto pledge. The LibDems had a pledge to reverse Brexit and tanked at the GE, although probably more to do with them choosing a coalition with the Tories rather than Labour.

It might even be argued that it would be the 4th vote, as there was also the vote to trigger Article 50.

You couldn't script a better farce.


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## Beezerk (Apr 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It could be argued that if another referendum is called it will be the 3rd public vote with an emphasis on Brexit. May called her ill-fated GE with a manifesto pledge for Brexit. Labour likewise had it as a manifesto pledge. The LibDems had a pledge to reverse Brexit and tanked at the GE, although probably more to do with them choosing a coalition with the Tories rather than Labour.

It might even be argued that it would be the 4th vote, as there was also the vote to trigger Article 50.

You couldn't script a better farce.
		
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Will you stop frying my brain please ðŸ˜†


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## Fade and Die (Apr 8, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Not other words, *your sick words*.

Click to expand...


Strong stuff. Want to elaborate why its sick? After all if its not exploitation of cheap labour to improve profit what is it? (I'm guessing you have a few Romanian tree fellers on your books)


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Strong stuff. Want to elaborate why its sick? After all if its not exploitation of cheap labour to improve profit what is it? (I'm guessing you have a few Romanian tree fellers on your books)
		
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It's not 'exploitation' imo unless you define it as 'mutual exploitation'! UK provides opportunities for foreign Labour at every level of work - for temporary or permanent workers - within certain criteria. To select a single group as being 'exploited' simply because it is 'low-paid', by UK standards, is plain wrong imo!


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## Fade and Die (Apr 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It's not 'exploitation' imo unless you define it as 'mutual exploitation'! UK provides opportunities for foreign Labour at every level of work - for temporary or permanent workers - within certain criteria. To select a single group as being 'exploited' simply because it is 'low-paid', by UK standards, is plain wrong imo!
		
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Don't want to pull a "Foxy" on you but the word Exploitation can mean..... "The action of making use of and benefiting from resources"


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Don't want to pull a "Foxy" on you but the word Exploitation* can* mean..... "The action of making use of and benefiting from resources" 

Click to expand...

Indeed! That's pretty much 'in line with' the 'mutual exploitation' I mentioned. 'Used' or 'Making Use of' would be appropriate synonyms - withoiut the negative 'bias'.

It was the negative oriented other meaning I was assuming (because of the reference to 'cheap labour' - and subsequent text - but no reference to 'better pay than is available at home') was being used. You could have simply stated 'Use', but chose 'Exploited'. Here's that definition ... 'the action or fact of *treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work*.'

Perhaps you should explain which use you really meant!


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## User62651 (Apr 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Strong stuff. Want to elaborate why its sick? After all if its not exploitation of cheap labour to improve profit what is it? (I'm guessing you have a few Romanian tree fellers on your books)
		
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You've just called all remainers racists by association with wishing to stay in EU, in a pretty warped/offensive post. The people you're referring to are the same race as 90%+ of Britsh people so it wouldn't even be racism for a start. If they were from Africa you'd maybe have a point.

Freedom of movement allows EU people to travel as they wish, nearly all from EU working here (except any trafficked) have chosen that route of their own free will. My company is about 99% British employees, few Finns, 1 Spaniard maybe. Some of the tree planting gangs have Eastern European workers who travel all over Europe to work, their choice. They make pretty good money at it, certainly not exploited. Generally good workers too or they wouldn't last. Not enough local British people willing or able to do that work. Wrt tree fellers things have moved on, harvesting operations are 99% mechanised and not many immigrants can afford Â£300k+ harvesters.


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## IanM (Apr 8, 2019)

Freedom of movement is great for making working, studying and travel easier...but don't let the Federalists tell you it is impossible without it!!   

Additionally, if the wage was Â£7-50 here and Â£15 somewhere else, most of us would be on our bikes!!  Of course we would. In amongst the pros, there are issues of pressure on public services and it's freedom of movement for criminals too.  

May is off asking for an extension to Art 50.  She'll get it.  All part of the plan.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! That's pretty much 'in line with' the 'mutual exploitation' I mentioned. 'Used' or 'Making Use of' would be appropriate synonyms - withoiut the negative 'bias'.

It was the negative oriented other meaning I was assuming (because of the reference to 'cheap labour' - and subsequent text - but no reference to 'better pay than is available at home') was being used. You could have simply stated 'Use', but chose 'Exploited'. Here's that definition ... 'the action or fact of *treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work*.'

Perhaps you should explain which use you really meant!
		
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To be honest it's your definition i really meant. The 2nd definition was really just sugar coating it.... But the facts remain the same, Capitalism LOVES cheap labour. Why? bigger profit. So we *are* exploiting the hard working men and woman from Eastern Europe. We are employing them at a cheaper rate than the local population are willing to do the same job for. Yes its mutually beneficial as in there own countries they cannot even earn the pittance the fruit farmer (for eg) will pay them. But please do not kid yourself that we are doing it for some kind of philanthropic reasons. We are doing it to increase profit.


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			To be honest it's your definition i really meant. The 2nd definition was really just sugar coating it.... But the facts remain the same, Capitalism LOVES cheap labour. Why? bigger profit. So we *are* exploiting the hard working men and woman from Eastern Europe. We are employing them at a cheaper rate than the local population are willing to do the same job for. Yes its mutually beneficial as in there own countries they cannot even earn the pittance the fruit farmer (for eg) will pay them. But please do not kid yourself that we are doing it for some kind of philanthropic reasons. We are doing it to increase profit.
		
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Much, probably most, of the above is simply dogmatic twaddle!


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## Fade and Die (Apr 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Much, probably most, of the above is simply dogmatic twaddle!
		
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So naive.ðŸ˜ž


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So naive.ðŸ˜ž
		
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That too!


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## Fade and Die (Apr 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That too!
		
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Keep digging. ðŸ‘


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## Fade and Die (Apr 8, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



*You've just called all remainers racists by association with wishing to stay in EU, in a pretty warped/offensive post. The people you're referring to are the same race as 90%+ of Britsh people so it wouldn't even be racism for a start. If they were from Africa you'd maybe have a point.*

Freedom of movement allows EU people to travel as they wish, nearly all from EU working here (except any trafficked) have chosen that route of their own free will. My company is about 99% British employees, few Finns, 1 Spaniard maybe. Some of the tree planting gangs have Eastern European workers who travel all over Europe to work, their choice. They make pretty good money at it, certainly not exploited. Generally good workers too or they wouldn't last. Not enough local British people willing or able to do that work. Wrt tree fellers things have moved on, harvesting operations are 99% mechanised and not many immigrants can afford Â£300k+ harvesters.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ You think you have seen and heard it all from snowflakes, but this takes the absolute  biscuit. 

(Of course the biscuit will be a custard cream and not a bourbon, in case anyone is offended)


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 8, 2019)

He's the gift that keeps on giving....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1115259420374708225


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2019)

jp5 said:



			What's the third referendum?

We're only in this situation due to how badly it has been handled. When the actual alternative vs. remain is defined is when we should have had the vote. No wonder when people see what the alternative is, there may no longer be a majority to leave.

An interesting watch --


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1114954083511808006

Click to expand...

We have name for folk like that fruit farmer in Scotland.
It starts with F and ends in Y and used to be a popular Victorian girls name.


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## PieMan (Apr 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We have name for folk like that fruit farmer in Scotland.
It starts with F and ends in Y and used to be a popular Victorian girls name.

Click to expand...

Felicity?


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## Crazyface (Apr 9, 2019)

Anyone else think (hope) May is pinning everything on the EU telling her to "go away" and get ready for a no deal?


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## Crazyface (Apr 9, 2019)

IF she thinks there will be a situation where we will not have "Brexit" she is very deluded. If only she had been in the Clubhouse where I was on Friday she'd have been in no doubt what to do with herself and her stupid ideas. (That's putting it very politely from what I, could not fail to, heard)


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## bluewolf (Apr 9, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			IF she thinks there will be a situation where we will not have "Brexit" she is very deluded. If only she had been in the Clubhouse where I was on Friday she'd have been in no doubt what to do with herself and her stupid ideas. (That's putting it very politely from what I, could not fail to, heard)
		
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Why? What will they do if there isn't Brexit?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Why? What will they do if there isn't Brexit?
		
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March through Macclesfield perhaps?

Mind you, even as a Remain voter, I would consider it a bad thing for democracy in this country if we did not now leave.

The Referendum may not have been a good idea and the campaigning on both sides was disgraceful. Probably should have required 60:40 majority to be acted upon. 

Nevertheless, the conditions were known to us all, including politicians, beforehand and, therefore, I feel that those same politicians now have a duty to ensure that the result is carried out. 

I simply cannot see how we can have a further Referendum when the original result remains outstanding. 

Better informed or not the result,  either way,  is likely to be equally as close as the original so why would it be any more acceptable to the "losing" side?


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## Beezerk (Apr 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Why? What will they do if there isn't Brexit?
		
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I donâ€™t think itâ€™s the geezers in the clubhouse we should be worried about. The silent majority who donâ€™t have a voice would be my worry. Remember how quickly those riots around the country arose a few years ago, I fear something far worse if Brexit were not to be executed.


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## bluewolf (Apr 9, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I donâ€™t think itâ€™s the geezers in the clubhouse we should be worried about. The silent majority who donâ€™t have a voice would be my worry. Remember how quickly those riots around the country arose a few years ago, I fear something far worse if Brexit were not to be executed.
		
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People will do nothing. We're a Nation that's full of wind and piss. Plenty of angry people will head to the pub and tell all their mates that's its criminal. Then they'll get drunk on cheap beer and stagger home bemoaning the world. 
You might get the odd angry reaction, but people will just be grateful it's over. They're more bothered about the new season of Game of bloody Thrones. ðŸ˜‰


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## bluewolf (Apr 9, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			March through Macclesfield perhaps?

Mind you, even as a Remain voter, I would consider it a bad thing for democracy in this country if we did not now leave.

The Referendum may not have been a good idea and the campaigning on both sides was disgraceful. Probably should have required 60:40 majority to be acted upon.

Nevertheless, the conditions were known to us all, including politicians, beforehand and, therefore, I feel that those same politicians now have a duty to ensure that the result is carried out.

I simply cannot see how we can have a further Referendum when the original result remains outstanding.

Better informed or not the result,  either way,  is likely to be equally as close as the original so why would it be any more acceptable to the "losing" side?
		
Click to expand...

I have mixed views on the whole "Democracy" argument. I have a real issue with the level of law breaking involved in the referendum. I'd have an issue if my vote had won as well though. I'd probably be a bit quieter about it though ðŸ˜‰


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## Beezerk (Apr 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			People will do nothing. We're a Nation that's full of wind and piss. Plenty of angry people will head to the pub and tell all their mates that's its criminal. Then they'll get drunk on cheap beer and stagger home bemoaning the world.
You might get the odd angry reaction, but people will just be grateful it's over. They're more bothered about the new season of Game of bloody Thrones. ðŸ˜‰
		
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ðŸ˜†

I wish I had your optimism.


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## jp5 (Apr 9, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Better informed or not the result,  either way,  is likely to be equally as close as the original so why would it be any more acceptable to the "losing" side?
		
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I suppose as the choice in the public vote would be between two clearly defined routes, which wasn't the case in the 2016 referendum.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I have mixed views on the whole "Democracy" argument. I have a real issue with the level of law breaking involved in the referendum. I'd have an issue if my vote had won as well though. I'd probably be a bit quieter about it though ðŸ˜‰
		
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Whether it was The Bus or Osborne's claim of the immediate effect of a Leave vote the lies and overall standard of the two campaigns was disgraceful. 

Both sides were obsessed with the negatives.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 9, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I suppose as the choice in the public vote would be between two clearly defined routes, which wasn't the case in the 2016 referendum.
		
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But it was.

According to the P.M. of the day it was " a straight  in or out vote".


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## bobmac (Apr 9, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Felicity?
		
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Mmmmmmm


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## bluewolf (Apr 9, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Whether it was The Bus or Osborne's claim of the immediate effect of a Leave vote the lies and overall standard of the two campaigns was disgraceful.

Both sides were obsessed with the negatives.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. It was a disgraceful campaign. However, the law breaking is enough to convince me that if that's what we are holding up as an example of Democracy then we're in real trouble.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Agreed. It was a disgraceful campaign. However, the law breaking is enough to convince me that if that's what we are holding up as an example of Democracy then we're in real trouble.
		
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Cannot recall a GE for instance where there hasn't subsequently been shown to have been breaches of electoral law.

 Disturbing but not certain that we should then decide that it is OK to not enact results.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 9, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Mmmmmmm

View attachment 27040

Click to expand...

Showing your age there Bob. There are people on this forum who wont know who she is, never seen her in a pair of wellies


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## robinthehood (Apr 9, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Anyone else think (hope) May is pinning everything on the EU telling her to "go away" and get ready for a no deal?
		
Click to expand...

No


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## bluewolf (Apr 9, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Cannot recall a GE for instance where there hasn't subsequently been shown to have been breaches of electoral law.

Disturbing but not certain that we should then decide that it is OK to not enact results.
		
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Good point. Law breaking is rife within U.K. politics ðŸ˜³
Maybe it's time to accept that our current version of democracy is a far cry from our much vaunted perception of it!
Not sure why people are defending such a corrupt process anymore ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜‚


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## jp5 (Apr 9, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			But it was.

According to the P.M. of the day it was " a straight  in or out vote".
		
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There was one clearly defined outcome, and one yet to be defined outcome.

As for that PM, he also said he wouldn't resign as PM or MP, neither promise lasted long. Wouldn't unfortunately put too much trust in his words.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Showing your age there Bob. There are people on this forum who wont know who she is, never seen her in a pair of wellies 

Click to expand...

She is now 72 but still very bendy [I'm told]

I see another leave voting 'Felicity' is moaning on the radio because her UK/EU shipping/delivery company has gone pear shaped.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Good point. Law breaking is rife within U.K. politics ðŸ˜³
Maybe it's time to accept that our current version of democracy is a far cry from our much vaunted perception of it!
Not sure why people are defending such a corrupt process anymore ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree that reform is way overdue. 

For the time being, however,  it is all that we have got and, therefore, the results generated have to be honoured.


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## Leftie (Apr 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Showing your age there Bob. There are people on this forum who wont know who she is, never seen her in a pair of wellies 

Click to expand...

"Rear of the Year" 1981 - so I'm told ......


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Showing your age there Bob. There are people on this forum who wont know who she is, never seen her in a pair of wellies 

Click to expand...

She's a wonderful woman and I want to protect her....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Whether it was The Bus or Osborne's claim of the immediate effect of a Leave vote the lies and overall standard of the two campaigns was disgraceful.

*Both sides were obsessed with the negatives.*

Click to expand...

I believe thatâ€™s far more prevelant in society than we recognise, probably spills over into jealousy at times, even some of the more upbeat threads people start on here are dragged down by negativity rather than saying nothing or recognising we all see things differently.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I believe thatâ€™s far more prevelant in society than we recognise, probably spills over into jealousy at times, even some of the more upbeat threads people start on here are dragged down by negativity rather than saying nothing *or recognising we all see things differently*.
		
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## Foxholer (Apr 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I believe thatâ€™s far more prevelant in society than we recognise, probably spills over into jealousy at times, even some of the more upbeat threads people start on here are dragged down by negativity rather than saying nothing or recognising we all see things differently.
		
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I'm afraid, from my experience, that's particularly true (or at least a 'strong trait') of much of UK society! Even your suggestion, positively meant, also has such connotations/implications. There's no reason for to 'say nothing' if your view is different - as, as you correctly state, all should recognise that we can see things differently. Though while that applies to opinion, it doesn't apply to FACTs - supposedly irrefutable - imo!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm afraid, from my experience, that's particularly true (or at least a 'strong trait') of much of UK society! Even your suggestion, positively meant, also has such connotations/implications. There's no reason for to 'say nothing' if your view is different - as, as you correctly state, all should recognise that we can see things differently. Though while that applies to opinion, it doesn't apply to FACTs - supposedly irrefutable - imo!
		
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But how many times year after year do people have to keep repeating their negative opinion, we know how they feel, we know it wonâ€™t change, so why bother?
Iâ€™m not saying people arenâ€™t entitled to that opinion, just know when to let others hear it and when to let go.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 9, 2019)

Leftie said:



			"Rear of the Year" 1981 - so I'm told ...... 

Click to expand...

 I used to work for the PR firm that organised that.  There is no kind of voting - it's who you can get in the current limelight to turn up for Â£500 worth of free jeans and the publicity.  The year I arranged it, we had Anita Dobson from EastEnders.


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## Old Skier (Apr 9, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I used to work for the PR firm that organised that.  There is no kind of voting - it's who you can get in the current limelight to turn up for Â£500 worth of free jeans and the publicity.  The year I arranged it, we had Anita Dobson from EastEnders.
		
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Should have been mouth from the south for her.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But how many times year after year do people have to keep repeating their negative opinion, we know how they feel, we know it wonâ€™t change, so why bother?
Iâ€™m not saying people arenâ€™t entitled to that opinion, just know when to let others hear it and when to let go. 

Click to expand...

Are you not perpetuating that which you decry in your post. Is an opinion 'negative' in your opinion due to it not conforming with your own viewpoint.   Why shouldnt people repeat their opinion if they still believe it to be true and conflicting opinions false.

We know how you feel, we know it won't change, so why bother.

Just saying ðŸ¤”


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Why? What will they do if there isn't Brexit?
		
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Scream and scream until we are sick.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you not perpetuating that which you decry in your post. Is an opinion 'negative' in your opinion due to it not conforming with your own viewpoint.   Why shouldnt people repeat their opinion if they still believe it to be true and conflicting opinions false.

We know how you feel, we know it won't change, so why bother.

Just saying ðŸ¤”
		
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You know what I mean, those who turn up like a cloud on a sunny day, regardless of subject!


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Good point. Law breaking is rife within U.K. politics ðŸ˜³
Maybe it's time to accept that our current version of democracy is a far cry from our much vaunted perception of it!
Not sure why people are defending such a corrupt process anymore ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜‚
		
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Hearing today's news, it appears law breaking amongst politicians is not just a UK issue.


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## Mudball (Apr 10, 2019)

oh dear...  Tusk says Extension could be for a year..  
... Leavers will say its too long
....Remainers will say its too short. 

...cant please anyone these days..


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2019)

Let's see the French put their money where their mouth is. Oh forgot, they are now a net receiver so will do as they are told.


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## robinthehood (Apr 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Let's see the French put their money where their mouth is. Oh forgot, they are now a net receiver so will do as they are told.
		
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Are you sure you didn't make that up.


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## bluewolf (Apr 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Hearing today's news, it appears law breaking amongst politicians is not just a UK issue.
		
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Very true.. It would appear that those decrying the "death of democracy" are about a hundred years too late! 

Just goes to prove that the ever popular claim that "Remoaners" are ignoring democracy is a ridiculous notion. It could easily be said the "Leavers" are in favour of a corrupt institution! I'm absolutely sure that if Remain had won, and the Remain camp had been found guilty of breaking electoral law there'd be just as big a commotion. Both sides are as bad as each other..

Anyway, on a good note, this thread won me Â£40 last night. Was at the local Pub quiz and we had a 5 way tie for first.. The tie breaker was "How many people voted for remain in the referendum.. Obviously, I knew the answer due to it being mentioned 16.1 million times on this thread... So, BIG THANKS ALL....


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## Crazyface (Apr 10, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			March through Macclesfield perhaps?

Mind you, even as a Remain voter, I would consider it a bad thing for democracy in this country if we did not now leave.

The Referendum may not have been a good idea and the campaigning on both sides was disgraceful. Probably should have required 60:40 majority to be acted upon.

Nevertheless, the conditions were known to us all, including politicians, beforehand and, therefore, I feel that those same politicians now have a duty to ensure that the result is carried out.

I simply cannot see how we can have a further Referendum when the original result remains outstanding.

Better informed or not the result,  either way,  is likely to be equally as close as the original so why would it be any more acceptable to the "losing" side?
		
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Wasn't Macc, t'was up in t'hills and a cockerny fella to boot !


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## Crazyface (Apr 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			People will do nothing. We're a Nation that's full of wind and piss. Plenty of angry people will head to the pub and tell all their mates that's its criminal. Then they'll get drunk on cheap beer and stagger home bemoaning the world.
You might get the odd angry reaction, but people will just be grateful it's over. They're more bothered about the new season of Game of bloody Thrones. ðŸ˜‰
		
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We're a nation that take a lot to get rilled up, but when we do.....


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## Crazyface (Apr 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Let's see the French put their money where their mouth is. Oh forgot, they are now a net receiver so will do as they are told.
		
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Really???? France!?????No wonder they are still in it!!!!


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## MegaSteve (Apr 10, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Just goes to prove that the ever popular claim that "Remoaners" are ignoring democracy is a ridiculous notion. It could easily be said the "Leavers" are in favour of a corrupt institution! I'm absolutely sure that if Remain had won, and the Remain camp had been found guilty of breaking electoral law there'd be just as big a commotion. Both sides are as bad as each other..
		
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As a leaver I was hoping to be kicking a wholly corrupt bureaucracy into touch... Sadly, I had overlooked an equally corrupt bureaucracy was likely to be working to deflect my wish...


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## bluewolf (Apr 10, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			As a leaver I was hoping to be kicking a wholly corrupt bureaucracy into touch... Sadly, I had overlooked an equally corrupt bureaucracy was likely to be working to deflect my wish...
		
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It's a strange turn of events isn't it? I've accepted that a significant percentage of our political "elite" are bought and paid for for years. I just thought that the EU curbed some of the more Right Wing, Total Free Market aspirations of the English system. 
If I was completely honest, I'd rather be governed by the EU than the English system fronted by people like JRM, BoJo, Baker, Hannan, Williamson etc ðŸ˜³


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## pauljames87 (Apr 10, 2019)

Mudball said:



			oh dear...  Tusk says Extension could be for a year.. 
... Leavers will say its too long
....Remainers will say its too short.

...cant please anyone these days..
		
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The Eu again knowing more about brexit than our own prime minister 

30th June she wanted .. so itâ€™s april now thatâ€™s 2 months to sort what she couldnâ€™t sort in 2 years 

The Eu wisely say take a year but if your ready sooner farewell..

Sod the rush

If we are going to actually leave letâ€™s get our ducks in a row and do it in the best way possible at least 

Letâ€™s not do the old we are lost letâ€™s not stop and ask for help incase we lose face


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## Mudball (Apr 10, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The Eu again knowing more about brexit than our own prime minister

30th June she wanted .. so itâ€™s april now thatâ€™s 2 months to sort what she couldnâ€™t sort in 2 years

The Eu wisely say take a year but if your ready sooner farewell..

Sod the rush

If we are going to actually leave letâ€™s get our ducks in a row and do it in the best way possible at least

*Letâ€™s not do the old we are lost letâ€™s not stop and ask for help incase we lose face*

Click to expand...

Isnt that the British way to do it... Also includes standing in queue but not asking what the queue is all about..


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## IanM (Apr 10, 2019)

EU know more because May is carrying out their orders.  Frustrate , delay, cancel.  Always been the plan.

Anyone seen Corbyn's 2009 speech about the Irish Refendum's?   On Youtube, well worth a look.  Exactly same process being rolled out again.   But weird how Corbyn has changed his view.  Maybe the cheques have arrived


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Are you sure you didn't make that up.
		
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Yes completely, Macron said on Monday that he didn't see how any extension could solve the issues in Parliament, and he's right, therefore he had a mind not to vote for any extension after April.


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## robinthehood (Apr 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Yes completely, Macron said on Monday that he didn't see how any extension could solve the issues in Parliament, and he's right, therefore he had a mind not to vote for any extension after April.
		
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Not what I was asking about


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## IanM (Apr 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Yes completely, Macron said on Monday that he didn't see how any extension could solve the issues in Parliament, and he's right, therefore he had a mind not to vote for any extension after April.
		
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He is right. Parliament won't ever vote for any of this.  They hae planned for Ref2 from the morning after Ref1.  If Leave win Ref2, there will be a Ref3. 

You can't have a net contributor leaving the EU.  There are not enough of those currently!


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## oxymoron (Apr 10, 2019)

Hearing all the noises coming from the EU about us being in but loosing all rights to vote etc for the extended time we are in is in my opinion showing us exactly what they think of us, i bet we will still have to pay the full wack whilst
getting no input!! I think that's precisely  the EU the Germans and French would like to take charge of .Time to tell them to stick it and walk away.


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## drdel (Apr 10, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Hearing all the noises coming from the EU about us being in but loosing all rights to vote etc for the extended time we are in is in my opinion showing us exactly what they think of us, i bet we will still have to pay the full wack whilst
getting no input!! I think that's precisely  the EU the Germans and French would like to take charge of .Time to tell them to stick it and walk away.
		
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The EU are really good at spending member's cash - even when there's none left. T'was always going to come down to money in the end.


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## IanM (Apr 10, 2019)

Who said _"Socialism eventually runs out of other peoples' money"_


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## Foxholer (Apr 10, 2019)

IanM said:



			Who said _"Socialism eventually runs out of other peoples' money"_ 

Click to expand...

It was a misquote of a Thatcher statement!


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## drdel (Apr 10, 2019)

IanM said:



			Who said _"Socialism eventually runs out of other peoples' money"_ 

Click to expand...

The benefits of the debts from Quantitative Easing and bonds.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 10, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Hearing all the noises coming from the EU about us being in but loosing all rights to vote etc for the extended time we are in is in my opinion showing us exactly what they think of us, i bet we will still have to pay the full wack whilst getting no input!! I think that's precisely  the EU the Germans and French would like to take charge of .Time to tell them to stick it and walk away.
		
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They were reacting to talk like this and are just looking to ensure we don't behave (even more) like spoilt children and start for example blocking budgets.  



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1114835842508427264


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## IanM (Apr 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It was a misquote of a Thatcher statement!
		
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Well, be fair, a paraphrase! 

*Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other peopleâ€™s money.* 

there you are then... hope that helps!


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## Foxholer (Apr 10, 2019)

IanM said:



			Well, be fair, a paraphrase! 

*Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other peopleâ€™s money.* 

there you are then... hope that helps! 
Was it an accurate quote? No! Therefore it was a misquote! FACT!

I made no inference about WHY it was a misquote, simply stated the FACT that it was a misquote! (https://www.google.com/search?q=mis...69i59j69i60.7271j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 )
		
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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			They were reacting to talk like this and are just looking to ensure we don't behave (even more) like spoilt children [/MEDIA]
		
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They started it


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## drdel (Apr 10, 2019)

The announcement of the first blackhole photos was made from across the road from the EU summit. - Says it all!!!


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## drdel (Apr 10, 2019)

The Irish leader Varadkar has reminded us that about 50% of the UK want to Remain in the EU. He might want to reflect on the fact that about 50% of the EU citizens want to get out.


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## Slime (Apr 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			The announcement of the first blackhole photos was made from across the road from the EU summit. - Says it all!!!
		
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It's a shame most of the politicians weren't sucked into it!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2019)

Rule Britannia.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 10, 2019)

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/03/brexit-has-allowed-eu-take-back-control-over-uk


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## Mudball (Apr 11, 2019)

So Easter turns to Halloween... does this mean this thread will go on for another few months? Whatâ€™s the max number of posts a thread can take??


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 11, 2019)

I don't know about you but I feel that we've had a good try and been found wanting.  We've had a quick glimpse into a post Brexit world where characters like Mark Francois hold court and it isn't pretty.  So I say let's just pretend it didn't happen, chalk it down to experience and carry on as we are


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## Slime (Apr 11, 2019)

Why do I feel so utterly betrayed.


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## bluewolf (Apr 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I don't know about you but I feel that we've had a good try and been found wanting.  We've had a quick glimpse into a post Brexit world where characters like Mark Francois hold court and it isn't pretty.  So I say let's just pretend it didn't happen, chalk it down to experience and carry on as we are 

Click to expand...

In all seriousness, we can't do that now.. It's gone too far and we've created so much disruption and resentment that our position within the EU is untenable. 

Whilst I strongly don't believe that there'd be any type of civil unrest if we didn't Exit, I do believe that there are enough petty minded morons around to ensure that a significant amount of "Politicians" elected to the EU from these shores would be elected on a manifesto of causing disruption and frustration at every turn.

Can you imagine what a little army of small minded bigots like Farage and Francois could do to the EU? We'd be like a nasty little virus within the Host body.


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## robinthehood (Apr 11, 2019)

Slime said:



			Why do I feel so utterly betrayed.
		
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You're to overly concerned with the wrongs things in life I'd say.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You're to overly concerned with the wrongs things in life I'd say.
		
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Like one of the basics of a well functioning society...


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## bluewolf (Apr 11, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Like one of the basics of a well functioning society...
		
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What? Like a well organised, honest Democracy?

Let me know when you see one of those..............


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## drdel (Apr 11, 2019)

If any of the remaining members were in any doubt before, yesterday should prove to them that once the UK has left it will be France and Germany in charge.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 11, 2019)

May I be the first to wish you all a happy Halloween.

Looks like Missis May has started her trick or treat early.


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## User62651 (Apr 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			In all seriousness, we can't do that now.. It's gone too far and we've created so much disruption and resentment that our position within the EU is untenable.

Whilst I strongly don't believe that there'd be any type of civil unrest if we didn't Exit, I do believe that there are enough petty minded morons around to ensure that a significant amount of "Politicians" elected to the EU from these shores would be elected on a manifesto of causing disruption and frustration at every turn.

Can you imagine what a little army of small minded bigots like Farage and Francois could do to the EU? We'd be like a nasty little virus within the Host body.
		
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Agreed on your first point.

Re your second point I think if it gets to the point where we have to vote in EU elections there will be a highish turnout overall because of Brexit, remainers will want to make a point of supporting the EU parliamentary process and leavers will also want to make a point by backing the Brexit Party or UKIP MEP candidates. Abstaining wont be noticed as it's been a historically low turnout anyway. Expect Tory candidates to suffer. Some current Tory MEPs won't stand again anyway.

Whilst May is in charge I can't see revoke Art50 coming, can't see another referendum/people's vote coming, can't see No Deal either (before Halloween at least). Where does that leave us? - exactly where we are now with Theresa May repeating the same old soundbites last night as she always does but with UK parliamentary arithmetic unchanged and not budging in her so called talks with Labour. Expect another 6.5 months of the same old arguments then "can we have another brexit extension please EU" . Just dont know if they'll allow that next time, think they've had enough. At that point No Deal might be enforced. Dear oh dear. She is also protected from a leadership challenge until December now. She could walk but she won't.

At least we know now that the EU wont capitulate last minute for a deal as we were told they would, that helps, one less variable. They saw the 2 deadlines through (29th and 12th) and basically made us beg.

No way out of this until there is a big change like a General Election, however current polls will deter May going down that route too.

Only 3.25 years until next enforced General Election!


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## IanM (Apr 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			If any of the remaining members were in any doubt before, yesterday should prove to them that once the UK has left it will be France and Germany in charge.
		
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And you dont think that's the case now regardless of the UK's position?

Well... no need for me to repeat anything, as my calling of this is still spot on.


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## bluewolf (Apr 11, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Agreed on your first point.

Re your second point I think if it gets to the point where we have to vote in EU elections there will be a highish turnout overall because of Brexit, remainers will want to make a point of supporting the EU parliamentary process and leavers will also want to make a point by backing the Brexit Party or UKIP MEP candidates. Abstaining wont be noticed as it's been a historically low turnout anyway. Expect Tory candidates to suffer. Some current Tory MEPs won't stand again anyway.

Whilst May is in charge I can't see revoke Art50 coming, can't see another referendum/people's vote coming, can't see No Deal either (before Halloween at least). Where does that leave us? - exactly where we are now with Theresa May repeating the same old soundbites last night as she always does but with UK parliamentary arithmetic unchanged and not budging in her so called talks with Labour. Expect another 6.5 months of the same old arguments then "can we have another brexit extension please EU" . Just dont know if they'll allow that next time, think they've had enough. At that point No Deal might be enforced. Dear oh dear. She is also protected from a leadership challenge until December now. She could walk but she won't.

At least we know now that the EU wont capitulate last minute for a deal as we were told they would, that helps, one less variable. They saw the 2 deadlines through (29th and 12th) and basically made us beg.

No way out of this until there is a big change like a General Election, however current polls will deter May going down that route too.

Only 3.25 years until next enforced General Election! 

Click to expand...

Some very good points..

If May does walk, then there is no chance in hell that a Remain supporting MP will put their hat in the ring. Imagine how popular that person would be!!

I can't see any option but a No Deal at Halloween. We need to be using all the allotted time to prepare for it, starting now.. Stop fannying about with meaningless votes. Announce the intention to Leave and just get on with it.. As I said, we're too far down the road to recover now anyway. The short term damage to our Economy is already done. Long term? Who knows? I don't think we've done our international reputation any good though, and I sincerely doubt we'll get any deals better than we currently enjoy..


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## User62651 (Apr 11, 2019)

Recently we were told May would allow the Commons to make the final decision on the type of Brexit to get us out by 22nd May if her talks with Labour went nowhere and there had been no extension offered.
I've lost track now given the new extension last night.

Is that 'let commons decide' option still on the cards or does the extra 6.5 months just allow May to go back to flogging the dead horse of 'Back my Deal, it's the only real option' thing?
Although she's won some more time she must be wanting to avoid partaking in the EU elections so there is still an onus on her to get things decided soonish, yes?

Also I don't think being a remainer would deter candidates standing for Tory leadership, the MPs vote in the first few rounds and they are remain more than leave, the wider party membership only gets a say when it's whittled down to last 2 I think. Boris or Gove will not be allowed to get through the early rounds unless they change the voting process, they're too tainted now. We will get Hunt or Javid as next PM imo.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 11, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Recently we were told May would allow the Commons to make the final decision on the type of Brexit to get us out by 22nd May if her talks with Labour went nowhere and there had been no extension offered.
I've lost track now given the new extension last night.

Is that 'let commons decide' option still on the cards or does the extra 6.5 months just allow May to go back to flogging the dead horse of 'Back my Deal, it's the only real option' thing?
Although she's won some more time she must be wanting to avoid partaking in the EU elections so there is still an onus on her to get things decided soonish, yes?

Also I don't think being a remainer would deter candidates standing for Tory leadership, the MPs vote in the first few rounds and they are remain more than leave, the wider party membership only gets a say when it's whittled down to last 2 I think. Boris or Gove will not be allowed to get through the early rounds unless they change the voting process, they're too tainted now. *We will get Hunt or Javid as next PM imo*.
		
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Au contraire mon ami, there's only one man for the job.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116036447922995200


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Some very good points..

If May does walk, then there is no chance in hell that a Remain supporting MP will put their hat in the ring. Imagine how popular that person would be!!

I can't see any option but a No Deal at Halloween. We need to be using all the allotted time to prepare for it, starting now.. Stop fannying about with meaningless votes. Announce the intention to Leave and just get on with it.. As I said, we're too far down the road to recover now anyway. *The short term damage to our Economy is already done. Long term? Who knows? I don't think we've done our international reputation any good though, and I sincerely doubt we'll get any deals better than we currently enjoy.*.
		
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So we've had the short term pain and long term it probably won't get any better?  Temping offer


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Au contraire mon ami, there's only one man for the job.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116036447922995200

Click to expand...

Jings crivens help ma boab. Voting in that plank as leader would be a tremendous boost for those seeking an independent Scotland and a united Ireland.


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## adam6177 (Apr 11, 2019)

Oh how I'm looking forward to several more months of this shambles.

Another day goes by and I still cannot fathom why anyone would want to stay in the EU, their desperation to keep us in tells me more than I need to know about how important we are to them or should I be more specific - how important our money is to them.

I believe it's naive to think there will not be demonstrations and maybe riots, you can only push people so far before they snap......To quote bluewolf "there are enough petty minded morons around".....unfortunately it's that kind of feeling that has made this whole situation worse. We all have our right to vote, our reasons to vote and to say mine is more important that someone elses would be arrogant and just plane wrong, but I hope my vote does eventually count.

If brexit doesn't happen this year I have full belief it will happen in the not too distant future and we'll just curse the fact that it wasn't handle properly in 2016. 

I too hope that these recent events will see the rise of another credible party or parties.  The tories or labour shouldn't be our only real options, choosing the least bad one to run our country is disgraceful and I hope votes we have in coming elections show these MPs that they've taken the mickey too far this time and we wont stand for it.

I can but hope.


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## bluewolf (Apr 11, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Oh how I'm looking forward to several more months of this shambles.

Another day goes by and I still cannot fathom why anyone would want to stay in the EU, their desperation to keep us in tells me more than I need to know about how important we are to them or should I be more specific - how important our money is to them.

I believe it's naive to think there will not be demonstrations and maybe riots, you can only push people so far before they snap......To quote bluewolf "there are enough petty minded morons around".....unfortunately it's that kind of feeling that has made this whole situation worse. We all have our right to vote, our reasons to vote and to say mine is more important that someone elses would be arrogant and just plane wrong, but I hope my vote does eventually count.

If brexit doesn't happen this year I have full belief it will happen in the not too distant future and we'll just curse the fact that it wasn't handle properly in 2016.

I too hope that these recent events will see the rise of another credible party or parties.  The tories or labour shouldn't be our only real options, choosing the least bad one to run our country is disgraceful and I hope votes we have in coming elections show these MPs that they've taken the mickey too far this time and we wont stand for it.

I can but hope.
		
Click to expand...

Would I be right in thinking that you've just called me naive, arrogant and plain wrong? 

If so then firstly, thank you 

Secondly, every bit of evidence shows that there are only a small minority of people who feel strongly enough to actually get out and break the law. This was shown by the "March" in London a few weeks ago.. Just a Far Right excuse for a booze up and a few Nazi salutes..

Thirdly, thanks for taking the quote out of context.. I said that there would be enough Petty Minded Morons around to vote in Politicians on a manifesto of causing mischief and frustrating Processes. This is evidenced by the recent tweets from JRM and Mark Francois.. If you're voting solely to destroy from within, then guess what? You're a Petty Minded Moron.


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## jp5 (Apr 11, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			their desperation to keep us in tells me more than I need to know about how important we are to them or should I be more specific - how important our money is to them.
		
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It's the UK asking for the extension...


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## bobmac (Apr 11, 2019)

Is there any chance we close this thread until about mid October?
Nothing's going to happen between now and then and name calling isn't serving any purpose


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## Beezerk (Apr 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Secondly, every bit of evidence shows that there are only a small minority of people who feel strongly enough to actually get out and break the law. This was shown by the "March" in London a few weeks ago.. Just a Far Right excuse for a booze up and a few Nazi salutes..
		
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Fair point but at the minute we are still leaving so why should Leavers bother protesting. If that were to change, then it becomes the tipping point and the game changes, millions upon millions of hugely disgruntled people (thick leavers they've been labelled don't forget) with an axe to grind.
And then who knows what will happen. Ok that may come across a touch negative but I really can't foresee a positive outcome should we now remain.


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## adam6177 (Apr 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Would I be right in thinking that you've just called me naive, arrogant and plain wrong? 

Click to expand...

Naive - yes (re the potential for riots)

arrogant and plain wrong - no, that was a generalisation about the brexit discussion thread.  It's a constant "fight" about who's opinion or vote is more important than someone elses.  Whereas they are all just a valid, hence why we get a vote each.

Re your other points - I cant event be bothered to address them.  Very much like most of the brexit discussions - pointless.


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## adam6177 (Apr 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			It's the UK asking for the extension...
		
Click to expand...

I'm aware of that, the EU will grant us any extension we want because we're important to them.


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## bluewolf (Apr 11, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Fair point but at the minute we are still leaving so why should Leavers bother protesting. If that were to change, then it becomes the tipping point and the game changes, millions upon millions of hugely disgruntled people (thick leavers they've been labelled don't forget) with an axe to grind.
And then who knows what will happen. Ok that may come across a touch negative but I really can't foresee a positive outcome should we now remain.
		
Click to expand...

We'll have to agree to disagree and see what happens if we do ending up Remaining.. I do love the idea of millions of Leave Voters roaming the streets looking for people to fight though.. Like a very British Battle Royale (the film not the wrestling malarkey)..


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## bluewolf (Apr 11, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Naive - yes (re the potential for riots)

arrogant and plain wrong - no, that was a generalisation about the brexit discussion thread.  It's a constant "fight" about who's opinion or vote is more important than someone elses.  Whereas they are all just a valid, hence why we get a vote each.

Re your other points - I cant event be bothered to address them.  Very much like most of the brexit discussions - pointless.
		
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Brilliant.. You insult me, then pitch a hissy fit when I respond..


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## Crazyface (Apr 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			If any of the remaining members were in any doubt before, yesterday should prove to them that once the UK has left it will be France and Germany in charge.
		
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Who do you think was in charge before?????


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## bluewolf (Apr 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			If any of the remaining members were in any doubt before, yesterday should prove to them that once the UK has left it will be France and Germany in charge.
		
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The comment does seem to suggest that before Brexit, it was the UK, France and Germany that were in charge.


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## User62651 (Apr 11, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I'm aware of that, the *EU will grant us any extension we want *because we're important to them.
		
Click to expand...

We (May) wanted June 30th to avoid EU elections. Didn't get it.


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## Crazyface (Apr 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			The comment does seem to suggest that before Brexit, it was the UK, France and Germany that were in charge. 

Click to expand...

Ahhh like our Government, he thinks we had a say in anything. The EU was formed to make sure we never got a say in anything. Why don't people realise the the only country that actually likes us is the USA?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 11, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Ahhh like our Government, he thinks we had a say in anything. The EU was formed to make sure we never got a say in anything. Why don't people realise the the only country that actually likes us is the USA?
		
Click to expand...

They say every day's a school day so start at about 5.34


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## bluewolf (Apr 11, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Ahhh like our Government, he thinks we had a say in anything. The EU was formed to make sure we never got a say in anything. Why don't people realise the the only country that actually likes us is the USA?
		
Click to expand...

 Well, we're all entitled to our opinions.. And yours is interesting to say the least.. I'll be honest, I never considered, not for one solitary single second, that the EU was formed purely to diminish our Global standing. 
I can just imagine all those Johnny Foreigners, holed up in some over-priced Hotel in Paris, bellies full of stinky cheese and lovely wine, wondering just how to make sure that those pesky British didn't have any input into Global politics..

"I know" said Pierre, "We'll form a gigantic club, comprised of all the major European countries, then we'll make sure that the Brits get by far the best deal to be a member. Then, we'll ignore everything they say. Vote against every motion they bring forward and generally treat them with the contempt they deserve.."

It's a cunning plan Baldrick.. If it was any more cunning they could stick a tail on it and call it a fox...


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Well, we're all entitled to our opinions.. And yours is interesting to say the least.. I'll be honest, I never considered, not for one solitary single second, that the EU was formed purely to diminish our Global standing.
I can just imagine all those Johnny Foreigners, holed up in some over-priced Hotel in Paris, bellies full of stinky cheese and lovely wine, wondering just how to make sure that those pesky British didn't have any input into Global politics..

"I know" said Pierre, "We'll form a gigantic club, comprised of all the major European countries, then we'll make sure that the Brits get by far the best deal to be a member. Then, we'll ignore everything they say. *Vote against every motion* they bring forward and generally treat them with the contempt they deserve.."

It's a cunning plan Baldrick.. If it was any more cunning they could stick a tail on it and call it a fox...
		
Click to expand...

Best not show the conspiracy theorists this, it will blow their minds..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087365509509713920


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## bluewolf (Apr 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Best not show the conspiracy theorists this, it will blow their minds..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087365509509713920

Click to expand...

And, IIRC, if you take a look at the 72 laws that were forced upon us, the vast majority appear to be linked to Tax avoidance and Worker rights.. That might just give you a clue as to where the Senior Political Brexiteers see us heading once we're out...


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## pendodave (Apr 11, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Why don't people realise the the only country that actually likes us is the USA?
		
Click to expand...

This is just laughable.
The only people the septics are interested in are themselves.
And only the 10% at that.
They are looking forward to pillaging our health services and dumping the products of their environment destructive farming practices.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 11, 2019)




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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Who do you think was in charge before?????
		
Click to expand...

The Brits of course.


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## Mudball (Apr 11, 2019)

spongebob59 said:








Click to expand...


Good to see that the Marketing/PR guys are in full flow..    Here is the Revolut email... 

_You're probably Reesly sick of hearing about Brexit by now. We understand. It's all very Merkely and confusing.

We're sorry to Boris you with more Brexit stuff, but please don't send this email to your Juncker folder. We have an important message you May want to hear.

For now, all our politicians have stopped having a Barnier about what deal to sign. This is good news. It means that you'll stay as part of our UK entity for the foreseeable future, and that you donâ€™t need to do anything on your side for now. There's a Chancellor this will change in the future, but we will keep you up to date as developments continue.

We suggest that you celebrate by using your Revolut card to go out and buy a sweet treat. Maybe a strawberry Macron._

_.......  _keep em flowing..


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## Slime (Apr 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You're to overly concerned with the wrongs things in life *I'd say.*

Click to expand...

I'm not overly interested in what you'd say, but thanks anyway.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Well, we're all entitled to our opinions.. And yours is interesting to say the least.. I'll be honest, I never considered, not for one solitary single second, that the EU was formed purely to diminish our Global standing. 
I can just imagine all those Johnny Foreigners, holed up in some over-priced Hotel in Paris, bellies full of stinky cheese and lovely wine, wondering just how to make sure that those pesky British didn't have any input into Global politics..

"I know" said Pierre, "We'll form a gigantic club, comprised of all the major European countries, then we'll make sure that the Brits get by far the best deal to be a member. Then, we'll ignore everything they say. Vote against every motion they bring forward and generally treat them with the contempt they deserve.."

It's a cunning plan Baldrick.. If it was any more cunning they could stick a tail on it and call it a fox...
		
Click to expand...

DeGaulle wasn't overly enthusiastic about us joining his club... On reflection perhaps he was right to keep us out whilst he was able to...


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## Fade and Die (Apr 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You're to overly concerned with the wrongs things in life I'd say.
		
Click to expand...

Like Democracy? Yeah us leavers are funny like that.?


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## Fade and Die (Apr 11, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			DeGaulle wasn't overly enthusiastic about us joining his club... On reflection perhaps he was right to keep us out whilst he was able to...
		
Click to expand...

Ah but now they need the cash itâ€™s a different story.


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## bluewolf (Apr 11, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			DeGaulle wasn't overly enthusiastic about us joining his club... On reflection perhaps he was right to keep us out whilst he was able to...
		
Click to expand...

We do seem to be doing our best to prove him right don't we? ðŸ¤”ðŸ˜‚


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			It's the UK asking for the extension...
		
Click to expand...

It's Tusk's dream to keep us in...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...may-extension-article-50-remain-a8864606.html


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			It's the UK asking for the extension...
		
Click to expand...

Correctimundo!  And why are we doing that? Could it be due to our Parliament trying their level best to disrupt the peoples vote because they think we never voted the way they wanted us to.   I listened to Jeremy Hunt on Peston and he had it right, he said the people asked us to do something we didnt want and the true test of parliament is to deliver it.


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## drdel (Apr 11, 2019)

IanM said:



			And you dont think that's the case now regardless of the UK's position?

Well... no need for me to repeat anything, as my calling of this is still spot on.
		
Click to expand...

You may have failed to notice that the smaller members tended to rely on the UK to be a moderating and stabilising influence as we generally always played by the rules


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			You may have failed to notice that the smaller members tended to rely on the UK to be a moderating and stabilising influence as we generally always played by the rules
		
Click to expand...

There was an EU MP on the tv last week (didn't  catch what country he was from) saying the UK leaving was worse than 10 smaller countries leaving.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			We do seem to be doing our best to prove him right don't we? ðŸ¤”ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Is the correct answer. We should never have gone in.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 11, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116278615543549957


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## robinthehood (Apr 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Correctimundo!  And why are we doing that? Could it be due to our Parliament trying their level best to disrupt the peoples vote because they think we never voted the way they wanted us to.   I listened to Jeremy Hunt on Peston and he had it right, he said the people asked us to do something we didnt want and the true test of parliament is to deliver it.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but as mentioned many pages back,  your brexit hero's rmg , bojo etc are the reason we haven't left and probably never will


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 11, 2019)

__ https://www.facebook.com/157809760916130/posts/2335107583186326


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Sorry but as mentioned many pages back,  your brexit hero's rmg , bojo etc are the reason we haven't left and probably never will
		
Click to expand...

Cosmic ðŸš®


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/157809760916130/posts/2335107583186326



Click to expand...

Just blown away.  How do you do it ðŸ™„


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## jp5 (Apr 11, 2019)

Â£4billion spent on no deal preparations that were only ever a bluff. What a waste of our money.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Â£4billion spent on no deal preparations that were only ever a bluff. What a waste of our money.
		
Click to expand...

Thats not quite correct, is it?
Its been wasted due to Remainers insisting No Deal is taken off the table.


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## robinthehood (Apr 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Cosmic ðŸš®
		
Click to expand...

As ever when it comes to the crunch you have nothing.

Nothing.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			As ever when it comes to the crunch you have nothing.

Nothing.
		
Click to expand...

Sometimes when faced with blind stupidy its best to ignore it ðŸš®


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## robinthehood (Apr 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Sometimes when faced with blind stupidy its best to ignore it ðŸš®
		
Click to expand...

And usuall service is resumed.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			And usuall service is resumed.
		
Click to expand...

The irony ðŸš®


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 12, 2019)

Tusk to May...â€¦....please don't waste any time

May to HofComâ€¦.....enjoy your 3 week Easter holiday.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Tusk to May...â€¦....please don't waste any time

May to HofComâ€¦.....enjoy your 3 week Easter holiday.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly what I thought. The holiday should have been postposned not just now but about 2 years ago. They knew we were (suppose to be) leaving around now so why let them have a holiday? Could have given them a year notice that sorry no holiday for this time as there is work to do

So of this extension how much is holiday?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 12, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Exactly what I thought. The holiday should have been postposned not just now but about 2 years ago. They knew we were (suppose to be) leaving around now so why let them have a holiday? Could have given them a year notice that sorry no holiday for this time as there is work to do

*So of this extension how much is holiday*?
		
Click to expand...

They are normally in recess around the same time as the schools in the summer.  This does not necessarily mean they are on holiday during that time as I imagine there is a lot of local MP stuff to do.  Such as avoiding your local constituents if you voted the opposite way in parliament to how they voted in the referendum


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## Captainron (Apr 12, 2019)

This thread is like Dear Deidre for me.

If Iâ€™ve had a bit of a bad day, I just read 2 or 3 pages of this and realise that some folk are having a way worse day than me. 

Thank you so much. Love the forum


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## pauljames87 (Apr 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			They are normally in recess around the same time as the schools in the summer.  This does not necessarily mean they are on holiday during that time as I imagine there is a lot of local MP stuff to do.  Such as avoiding your local constituents if you voted the opposite way in parliament to how they voted in the referendum
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s the thing tho when important buisness like this is needing sorting holiday should be called off

Police have their leave cancelled during extreme situations so why canâ€™t MPs to sort (arguably) the most important issue this country has faced in a generation


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## User62651 (Apr 12, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Thatâ€™s the thing tho when important buisness like this is needing sorting holiday should be called off

Police have their leave cancelled during extreme situations so why canâ€™t MPs to sort (arguably) the most important issue this country has faced in a generation
		
Click to expand...

It's an 11 day break, tbh I think they need a break from the Commons at least, take a step back and reflect. They've been in there late into the evenings a lot of late and the atmosphere is toxic, everyones backs are up. We all need a break from work. I know they're portrayed as all sorts in the media but they are still people, they can burn out in that environment. Exhausted time-pressured people dont make good rational decisions.

Maybe some breathing space will yield some progress when they return? 
Ok maybe not


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## adam6177 (Apr 12, 2019)

The Brexit Party launched this morning and their first candidate to stand for European elections..... Annunziata Rees-Mogg!


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## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			The Brexit Party launched this morning and their first candidate to stand for European elections..... Annunziata Rees-Mogg!
		
Click to expand...

I think I grew up with her on the Beech Hill Council Estate in Wigan. Lovely working class woman.

 A real woman of the people. Thank god they've not just put up one of the countries entitled elite. ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			It's an 11 day break, tbh I think they need a break from the Commons at least, take a step back and reflect. They've been in there late into the evenings a lot of late and the atmosphere is toxic, everyones backs are up. We all need a break from work. I know they're portrayed as all sorts in the media but they are still people, they can burn out in that environment. Exhausted time-pressured people dont make good rational decisions.

Maybe some breathing space will yield some progress when they return?
Ok maybe not

Click to expand...

Probably not ï¿¼


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## User62651 (Apr 12, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			The Brexit Party launched this morning and their first candidate to stand for European elections..... Annunziata Rees-Mogg!
		
Click to expand...

Aside from who's standing you've already got UKIP and The Brexit Party bickering at eachother. Splitting the hard brexit voters isn't going to help either party get any seats. Seems a bit self defeating doesn't it?


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## adam6177 (Apr 12, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Aside from who's standing you've already got UKIP and The Brexit Party bickering at eachother. Splitting the hard brexit voters isn't going to help either party get any seats. Seems a bit self defeating doesn't it?
		
Click to expand...

Not really, my assumption would be that "people" will vote UKIP for general and local elections and Brexit party for european.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 12, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Aside from who's standing you've already got UKIP and The Brexit Party bickering at eachother. Splitting the hard brexit voters isn't going to help either party get any seats. Seems a bit self defeating doesn't it?
		
Click to expand...

Aren't UKIP essentially the EDL nowadays?  So the very far right vote may be split between UKIP and EDL and the 'not so far right but some still quite right' vote between The Brexit Party and the Tories. And the centre right vote between the Tories and TIG. I suppose if you do have a right wing persuasion at least you have a few to chose from.  But I do hope the Tories don't do anything stupid if they feel threatened by The Brexit Party though.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 12, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			The Brexit Party launched this morning and their first candidate to stand for European elections..... Annunziata Rees-Mogg!
		
Click to expand...

I've just spent the last 5 minutes looking at that name and trying to pronounce to. I've given up now.

Back to your point Maxfli. I can see Farage's party taking the votes from UKIP. UKIP have become utterly bonkers with too many racist under tones. They have lost leader after leader and have pretty much disappeared off the map. The Brexit party comes in with a clear objective, a well known person leading it who uses the media brilliantly and is someone the public know. The will not get caught up in having a whole host of policies that could trip them up, they have a narrow focus.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I think I grew up with her on the Beech Hill Council Estate in Wigan. Lovely working class woman.

A real woman of the people. Thank god they've not just put up one of the countries entitled elite. ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Good old Nigels always raging against the elite so good to see he's walking the walk.  Has she really thought this through as it could cause a split in the Rees-Mogg household when their kids Off Shore Account, Trust Fund and Caviar on Toast are old enough to send their nanny to vote for them.  As they will be forced to decide between mummy and daddy.  Like some nasty divorce but with posh people with absolute shed loads of cash playing ideological games with the lives of many people who are struggling to survive instead.


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## adam6177 (Apr 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good old Nigels always raging against the elite so good to see he's walking the walk.  Has she really thought this through as it could cause a split in the Rees-Mogg household when their kids Off Shore Account, Trust Fund and Caviar on Toast are old enough to send their nanny to vote for theme.  As they will be forced to decide between mummy and daddy.  Like some nasty divorce but with posh people with absolute shed loads of cash playing ideological games with the lives of many people who are struggling to survive instead?
		
Click to expand...

Thoughts are that maybe this is the beginning of a Tory split where brother Jacob jumps ship with some other like minded folk and the brexit party evolves into a genuine 3rd party running for general elections and not just european.....in the long term.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 12, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Thoughts are that maybe this is the beginning of a Tory split where brother Jacob jumps ship with some other like minded folk and the brexit party evolves into a genuine 3rd party running for general elections and not just european.....in the long term.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I'd quite welcome more parties to break the traditional 2 party dominance, I'm struggling to see, other than Europe, what the purpose of that party would be.  Unless I suppose they go more free market economics, slash taxes, run down the public sector, privatise everything, disaster capitalists welcome here.  But I'd say in the UK the attraction of that party would be limited and any half decent left centre/left wing ish party would wipe the floor with it.


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## IanM (Apr 12, 2019)

Almost certainly will be another short term Party thingie..most members of  the two _main parties _are too scared of the other getting elected to vote for anything else!


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## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2019)

So, if the Brexit Party can field 3 or 4 candidates on a manifesto of causing maximum disruption and frustration within the EU, would people be happy with that? 

Is that how we want to be seen on the International Stage? Like a petulant child, throwing a tantrum because they haven't got their own way.


----------



## adam6177 (Apr 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Whilst I'd quite welcome more parties to break the traditional 2 party dominance, I'm struggling to see, other than Europe, what the purpose of that party would be.  Unless I suppose they go more free market economics, slash taxes, run down the public sector, privatise everything, disaster capitalists welcome here.  But I'd say in the UK the attraction of that party would be limited and any half decent left centre/left wing ish party would wipe the floor with it.
		
Click to expand...

My gut instinct is that its branded as very much a hot topic and that if/when brexit does happen it could evolve into another more family friendly ideology but with its roots still all about sovereignty etc etc


----------



## adam6177 (Apr 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			So, if the Brexit Party can field 3 or 4 candidates on a manifesto of causing maximum disruption and frustration within the EU, would people be happy with that?

Is that how we want to be seen on the International Stage? Like a petulant child, throwing a tantrum because they haven't got their own way.
		
Click to expand...

I'd say thats an "extreme" way of looking at it, but dumbed down yes.  To be honest your message of "Like a petulant child, throwing a tantrum because they haven't got their own way" sums up remainers over the past 2.5 years. 

It's just some healthy competition with opposing ideas giving people options.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good old Nigels always raging against the elite so good to see he's walking the walk.  Has she really thought this through as it could cause a split in the Rees-Mogg household when their kids Off Shore Account, Trust Fund and Caviar on Toast are old enough to send their nanny to vote for them.  As they will be forced to decide between mummy and daddy.  Like some nasty divorce but with posh people with absolute shed loads of cash playing ideological games with the lives of many people who are struggling to survive instead.
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be considered libellous to suggest that someone has been having sex with, and has fathered children with, his sister without solid evidence?


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I'd say thats an "extreme" way of looking at it, but dumbed down yes.  To be honest your message of "Like a petulant child, throwing a tantrum because they haven't got their own way" sums up remainers over the past 2.5 years.

It's just some healthy competition with opposing ideas giving people options.
		
Click to expand...

It's extreme because it's theoretical. I have absolutely no idea what the Brexit Party's manifesto would be. I have absolutely zero respect for Nigel though so I'd have to assume it wasn't aimed at me. 

And whilst I can see a vague correlation between my analogy and the Remain protests, they have very little in common. Internal, peaceful protests by the People are quite different to purposeful frustration of the Democratic process of a Political entity.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Apr 12, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wouldn't it be considered libellous to suggest that someone has been having sex with, and has fathered children with, his sister without solid evidence?
		
Click to expand...

Oh, it's his sister.  I just assumed it was his wife. In which case most of the joke does not quite work. Let me rework it for a minute as I am in no way suggesting he is having any sexual relationships with his sister. No way indeed.

How about 'Good old Nigels always raging against the elite so good to see he's walking the walk. Has she really thought this through as it could cause a split in the Rees-Mogg household when his kids Off Shore Account, Trust Fund and Caviar on Toast are old enough to send their nanny to vote for theme. As they will be forced to decide between *auntie* and daddy. Like some nasty *family feud* but with posh people with absolute shed loads of cash playing ideological games with the lives of many people who are struggling to survive instead?' '


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2019)

I think they will get a lot of support and will produce policies beyond Brexit, probably around political reform.  I wish them well, we need some change. I do wonder about people when they make comparisons with Edl, that's a bit of an over reaction to say the least.


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think they will get a lot of support and will produce policies beyond Brexit, probably around political reform.  I wish them well, we need some change.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I respect your opinion, I genuinely don't think that this Party represents the change that we need. Farage polarises opinion too much. The backers (those that we know) have a sketchy history at best. They're a leap too far to the Right and their economic policies will be so far right that even Thatcher wouldn't have gone there.
I'd be willing to bet that they form a cozy partnership with the TPA. I've no doubt that they have the same associations.


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			So, if the Brexit Party can field 3 or 4 candidates on a manifesto of causing maximum disruption and frustration within the EU, would people be happy with that?

Is that how we want to be seen on the International Stage? Like a petulant child, throwing a tantrum because they haven't got their own way.
		
Click to expand...

I find it a little perverse that people decry the loss of a strong opposition party in the House of Commons but also decry the prospect of a party questioning the dominance of the EU federalists.... just seems...odd. A bit Animal Farm-ish? Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others...


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I find it a little perverse that people decry the loss of a strong opposition party in the House of Commons but also decry the prospect of a party questioning the dominance of the EU federalists.... just seems...odd. A bit Animal Farm-ish? Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others...
		
Click to expand...

Who's doing that? I genuinely don't get the point you're making?


----------



## adam6177 (Apr 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think they will get a lot of support and will produce policies beyond Brexit, probably around political reform.  I wish them well, we need some change. I do wonder about people when they make comparisons with Edl, that's a bit of an over reaction to say the least.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with you there, the party launched only a couple of hours ago and here we are on this thread with people making massive assumptions and accusations based on absolutely no fact at all.  I'm not sure what there is to be scared of, more choice and more competition are a good thing.


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Agree with you there, the party launched only a couple of hours ago and here we are on this thread with people making massive assumptions and accusations based on absolutely no fact at all.  I'm not sure what there is to be scared of, more choice and more competition are a good thing.
		
Click to expand...

It was founded in January.


----------



## User62651 (Apr 12, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Agree with you there, the party launched only a couple of hours ago and here we are on this thread with people making massive assumptions and accusations based on absolutely no fact at all.  I'm not sure what there is to be scared of, more choice and more competition are a good thing.
		
Click to expand...

Only raised it as Farage himself said The Breixt Party politics were the same as UKIPs, only the personnel were better ie. former business leaders etc rather than nutjobs.


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Who's doing that? I genuinely don't get the point you're making?
		
Click to expand...

Your inference is the Brexit Party would make the UK look like a petulant child. As much as I don't like what Farage et al stand for I do like the fact that there is a group in the EU Parliament that does ruffle feathers. But lets look beyond the Uk's disruptive party in the EU. There's quite a few parties from various countries being just as disruptive.


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## adam6177 (Apr 12, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Only raised it as Farage himself said The Breixt Party politics were the same as UKIPs, only the personnel were better ie. former business leaders etc rather than nutjobs.
		
Click to expand...

I glanced through the highlights of the opening this morning, the 4 candidates spoke well but probably (for me) only 1 stood out as someone I'd be interested to look into straight away - a guy call Ben Habib.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the new party evolve and what they bring to the table.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Oh, it's his sister.  I just assumed it was his wife. In which case most of the joke does not quite work. Let me rework it for a minute as I am in no way suggesting he is having any sexual relationships with his sister. No way indeed.

How about 'Good old Nigels always raging against the elite so good to see he's walking the walk. Has she really thought this through as it could cause a split in the Rees-Mogg household when his kids Off Shore Account, Trust Fund and Caviar on Toast are old enough to send their nanny to vote for theme. As they will be forced to decide between *auntie* and daddy. Like some nasty *family feud* but with posh people with absolute shed loads of cash playing ideological games with the lives of many people who are struggling to survive instead?' '
		
Click to expand...

So after a character assassination of someone you know nothing about do you feel better. Just relax she's just someone who wants to get into politics, why should you be concerned or should there be some kind of restricting criteria for people from well off families.


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Your inference is the Brexit Party would make the UK look like a petulant child. As much as I don't like what Farage et al stand for I do like the fact that there is a group in the EU Parliament that does ruffle feathers. But lets look beyond the Uk's disruptive party in the EU. There's quite a few parties from various countries being just as disruptive.
		
Click to expand...

No, my point was that if they stood on a manifesto of causing disruption and frustrating the political process then that would be acting like a petulant child. This was based on comments made by the likes of JRM and Mark Francois. I have absolutely no idea what their manifesto will be. It was a theoretical question.

They could integrate into the process, attend meetings, vote on motions etc. All whilst making every effort to educate the British population about the best future for the UK. Who knows? ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think they will get a lot of support and will produce policies beyond Brexit, probably around political reform.  I wish them well, we need some change. *I do wonder about people when they make comparisons with Edl, that's a bit of an over reaction to say the least*.
		
Click to expand...

The comparison was with what UKIP are morphing into, not Farages party. Farage is on record several times as saying that UKIP was being infiltrated by EDL/BNP people and whilst I disagree with just about everything Farage stands for, I don't believe he is a ENL/BNP racist and he does want to separate himself from them.  Doing that in the minds of the electorate may be more challenging.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Whilst I respect your opinion, I genuinely don't think that this Party represents the change that we need. Farage polarises opinion too much. The backers (those that we know) have a sketchy history at best. They're a leap too far to the Right and their economic policies will be so far right that even Thatcher wouldn't have gone there.
I'd be willing to bet that they form a cozy partnership with the TPA. I've no doubt that they have the same associations.
		
Click to expand...

Don't you mean they don't represent the change you need.  I have been disgusted with the way parliament has behaved recently and would welcome some constitutional change.


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Don't you mean they don't represent the change you need.  I have been disgusted with the way parliament has behaved recently and would welcome some constitutional change.
		
Click to expand...

Subtle distinction I suppose, but in my opinion they don't represent the change the country needs. I'm fortunate enough to earn well, have significant (enough) assets, have skills and experience enough to never be out of work. My concern is for those less fortunate. I believe that a step towards total free market economics will disadvantage the less fortunate, whilst providing significant advantage to the already fortunate.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Subtle distinction I suppose, but in my opinion they don't represent the change the country needs. I'm fortunate enough to earn well, have significant (enough) assets, have skills and experience enough to never be out of work. My concern is for those less fortunate. I believe that a step towards total free market economics will disadvantage the less fortunate, whilst providing significant advantage to the already fortunate.
		
Click to expand...

Do you know what their policies are or are you assuming they support a total free market economy.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			The comparison was with what UKIP are morphing into, not Farages party. Farage is on record several times as saying that UKIP was being infiltrated by EDL/BNP people and whilst I disagree with just about everything Farage stands for, I don't believe he is a ENL/BNP racist and he does want to separate himself from them.  Doing that in the minds of the electorate may be more challenging.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know why Farage gets labled a racist. Although that tends to be a call from the socialist elite against anyone who supports a controlled immigration policy.


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you know what their policies are or are you assuming they support a total free market economy.
		
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It's a great question. I'm making an educated guess, based on the rhetoric used by those linked to the Brexit Party. All the way back to January when Blaiklock was in charge (before having to resign) and McGough was the Treasurer (before having to resign). It'll be interesting to see which way they gravitate as there's no doubt that they'll gain seats quite quickly.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 12, 2019)

UKIP are finished... Heard/read they couldn't even raise sufficient candidates, for the forthcoming council elections, in an area where they've previously been in charge...


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## IanM (Apr 12, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Is that how we want to be seen on the International Stage? Like a petulant child, throwing a tantrum because they haven't got their own way.
		
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Indeed, dissent against The Federation is not tolerated.  How dare anyone resist the glorious Europa?


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			UKIP are finished... Heard/read they couldn't even raise sufficient candidates, for the forthcoming council elections, in an area where they've previously been in charge...
		
Click to expand...

To be fair to them, they achieved what they set out to achieve. Once Brexit was started, all the influential backers deserted them. That left people like Nuttall to fill the shoes of Farage. They were doomed from that point.


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## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2019)

IanM said:



			Indeed, dissent against The Federation is not tolerated.  How dare anyone resist the glorious Europa?
		
Click to expand...

Dissent is fine. It's the method that matters ðŸ‘


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## adam6177 (Apr 12, 2019)

When granting us the extension Donald Tusk said "Please do not waste this time".

Next day - MPs start their 10 day easter recess.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 12, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I'd say thats an "extreme" way of looking at it, but dumbed down yes.  To be honest your message of "Like a petulant child, throwing a tantrum because they haven't got their own way" sums up remainers over the past 2.5 years.

It's just some healthy competition with opposing ideas giving people options.
		
Click to expand...

That is exactly what this country could do with, a 5th right wing English party.


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## Old Skier (Apr 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is exactly what this country could do with, a 5th right wing English party.

Click to expand...

Says the man from the  SNP.


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Says the man from the  SNP.
		
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Yeah but the SNP is only a county council...


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## Old Skier (Apr 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Yeah but the SNP is only a county council...

Click to expand...

How else would it be able to blame Westminister for all of its self made problems.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Yeah but the SNP is only a county council...

Click to expand...


Breaking news from some obscure corner of Spain.

British political party becomes a county council.


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## Foxholer (Apr 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So after a character assassination of someone you know nothing about do you feel better.....
		
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## ColchesterFC (Apr 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Breaking news from some obscure corner of Spain.

*SCOTTISH* political party becomes a county council. 

Click to expand...

Fixed that for you.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:





Click to expand...

And whats funny about that?
Dont answer its a rhetorical question, its obvious you are just enacting your weirdo stalking campaign again.ðŸ™„


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 12, 2019)

Fair warning, there is a swear word in here for those that have never heard one before


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116751754111090689


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Fair warning, there is a swear word in here for those that have never heard one before


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116751754111090689

Click to expand...

Pretty desperate smear campaign but if thats what gives comfort then go for it.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Fair warning, there is a swear word in here for those that have never heard one before


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1116751754111090689

Click to expand...

Brilliant. Thanks for sharing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 13, 2019)

Superb clip.
I see Nigel's little helpers are now blockading Lidl supermarkets.
Someone said they were chanting 'What do we want...â€¦...food shortages...â€¦..'when do we want it'......â€¦.NOW.
I find that hard to believe.


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## Hobbit (Apr 13, 2019)

business-47921375

Mmm, bullying EU???


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## drdel (Apr 13, 2019)

H
[QUOTE="Hobbit said:



business-47921375

Mmm, bullying EU???
		
Click to expand...

As with most things if you follow the money you'll not be far adrift.

As the UK is still a member and may/will commit to the EU elections and the EU expects us to honour a gentleman's agreement for our MEPs not to be disruptive; its a bit rich.


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## Hobbit (Apr 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			As with most things if you follow the money you'll not be far adrift.

As the UK is still a member and may/will commit to the EU elections and the EU expects us to honour a gentleman's agreement for our MEPs not to be disruptive; its a bit rich.
		
Click to expand...

A bit like the first Greek bail out. Cameron refused to help as it was seen as a Euro issue, with the other non-Euro countries also not contributing. The UK was (coincidently) fined for some obscure indiscretion. Cameron and Osbourne said the UK wouldn't pay the fine but after an EU court case the UK ended paying Â£110 million.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Superb clip.
I see Nigel's little helpers are now blockading Lidl supermarkets.
Someone said they were chanting 'What do we want...â€¦...food shortages...â€¦..'when do we want it'......â€¦.NOW.
I find that hard to believe.

Click to expand...

What are you talking about


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## Foxholer (Apr 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And whats funny about that?
Dont answer its a rhetorical question, its obvious you are just enacting your weirdo stalking campaign again.ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Blue in Munich (Apr 14, 2019)

drdel said:



			As with most things if you follow the money you'll not be far adrift.

As the UK is still a member and may/will commit to the EU elections and the EU expects us to honour a gentleman's agreement for our MEPs not to be disruptive; *its a bit rich.*

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but it's not a bit rich; it's absolutely taking the proverbial, and goes a long way to explaining why many people want shot of the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:





Click to expand...

You know how this ends.  You start this juvenile stalking campaign, I respond, it escalates and we both get an infraction. Its happened so many times.  Grow up man.


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## robinthehood (Apr 15, 2019)

https://newsthump.com/2019/04/15/ni...of-bus-to-with-which-try-and-fool-the-public/


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://newsthump.com/2019/04/15/ni...of-bus-to-with-which-try-and-fool-the-public/

Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://newsthump.com/2019/04/15/ni...of-bus-to-with-which-try-and-fool-the-public/

Click to expand...

That's a silly putdown of Farage. He wasnt anything to do with the Red Bus (NHS) campaign, that was from Vote Leave.
I know you are a bit fixated on the Red Bus but try harder.


----------



## spongebob59 (Apr 15, 2019)




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## Hacker Khan (Apr 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a silly putdown of Farage. He wasnt anything to do with the Red Bus (NHS) campaign, that was from Vote Leave.
I know you are a bit fixated on the Red Bus but try harder.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair you are right and red buses are not Nigels style. He's more of a slightly racist poster kind of guy.


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## robinthehood (Apr 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a silly putdown of Farage. He wasnt anything to do with the Red Bus (NHS) campaign, that was from Vote Leave.
I know you are a bit fixated on the Red Bus but try harder.
		
Click to expand...

you think i wrote that for newsthump? I know you lack clarity on the world at large, but come on... its a bit oh humour from the Internet.. you know, memes n all that 

Anyway shouldn't you be in the colonial thread trying to take back control of the empire?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 15, 2019)

Why is it that when a random bloke called Anna Sourbry a Nazi in the street he got arrested and charged but David Lammy is allowed to compare the ERG to Nazis and nothing is done?


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## robinthehood (Apr 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why is it that when a random bloke called Anna Sourbry a Nazi in the street he got arrested and charged but David Lammy is allowed to compare the ERG to Nazis and nothing is done?
		
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Because you're not telling the whole story


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Because you're not telling the whole story
		
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So you're saying that in some instances it's OK to call someone a Nazi even when they clearly aren't?


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## robinthehood (Apr 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So you're saying that in some instances it's OK to call someone a Nazi even when they clearly aren't?
		
Click to expand...

Im saying you're not telling the whole story..... Tell us more about James Goddard and what he is being charged with.


As for Nazi quotes, clearly  the rhetoric of a fool.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Apr 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Im saying you're not telling the whole story..... Tell us more about James Goddard and what he is being charged with.
		
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According to The Metro newspaper he's been charged with harassment for what happened with Sourbry - "following her, filming her and calling her a traitor and a Nazi". I can't believe that "following her" and "filming her" can be part of any serious charge against him, otherwise the courts would be full of journalists and photographers every day of the week for doing their jobs.

He's also facing other charges related to incidents with police officers but unrelated to what happened with Sourbry. There's no doubting in my mind that he's a scumbag (and probably a racist one at that) but until he's been convicted of those offences then he's not guilty. But those charges are separate from what he's been charged with in relation to Sourbry which essentially boils down to calling her a Nazi - unless following and filming someone is now also a criminal offence.


----------



## Mudball (Apr 16, 2019)

Made me chuckle today... on Facebook


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## User62651 (Apr 16, 2019)

We know most of this already but I think this article is an interesting summary on May's way of doing things, with a few new insights  -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/16/how-may-miscalculated-the-brexit-numbers-game


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			you think i wrote that for newsthump? I know you lack clarity on the world at large, but come on... its a bit oh humour from the Internet.. you know, memes n all that 

Anyway shouldn't you be in the colonial thread trying to take back control of the empire?
		
Click to expand...

Don't know what it is you do to be so stupid but fair dues, it really works.  How are the sore knuckles by the way?


----------



## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Don't know what it is you do to be so stupid but fair dues, it really works.  How are the sore knuckles by the way?
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be fair you are right and red buses are not Nigels style. He's more of a slightly racist poster kind of guy. 
	View attachment 27089

Click to expand...

Oh I see.  Not being content with Millions of unchecked illegal immigrants flooding into Europe is racist is it?  How many did you guys invite into your homes.


----------



## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh I see.  Not being content with Millions of unchecked illegal immigrants flooding into Europe is racist is it?  How many did you guys invite into your homes.
		
Click to expand...

That poster was one of the lowest of the many brexiteer lows.
Truly shameful


----------



## adam6177 (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			That poster was one of the lowest of the many brexiteer lows.
Truly shameful
		
Click to expand...

In a Bruce Forsyth higher or lower style.....is that higher or lower in shame than David Lammy comparing brexiteers to Nazis?


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## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			In a Bruce Forsyth higher or lower style.....is that higher or lower in shame than David Lammy comparing brexiteers to Nazis?
		
Click to expand...

If you're going to tweet speeches from a far right group from Germany then I'd say don't be surprised if you get compared to the Nazis


----------



## adam6177 (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			If you're going to tweet speeches from a far right group from Germany then I'd say don't be surprised if you get compared to the Nazis
		
Click to expand...

you condone such methods?


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## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			you condone such methods?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry you've lost me, I think perhaps you're trying to be clever?


----------



## adam6177 (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Sorry you've lost me, I think perhaps you're trying to be clever?
		
Click to expand...

Not at all, it was a simple question.  I find you bring very little to this thread apart from the standard anti-brexit stance of calling those that voted leave thick, racist, right wing etc

I wont bother you again as you have no substance to your arguments.


----------



## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Not at all, it was a simple question.  I find you bring very little to this thread apart from the standard anti-brexit stance of calling those that voted leave thick, racist, right wing etc

I wont bother you again as you have no substance to your arguments.
		
Click to expand...

Ah another one gets found out.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			In a Bruce Forsyth higher or lower style.....is that higher or lower in shame than David Lammy comparing brexiteers to Nazis?
		
Click to expand...

Careful with the questions. Poor Robin may spontaneously combust.


----------



## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Careful with the questions. Poor Robin may spontaneously combust.
		
Click to expand...

Oof, ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ah another one gets found out.
		
Click to expand...

Have you ever thought it might be you thats the....

You really are a Weasley little man aren't you. Snidey little Jap sniper shots from the sidelines. No substance other than a puff of wind. 

Isn't it time you did your little one liner about the bus?


----------



## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Have you ever thought it might be you thats the....

You really are a Weasley little man aren't you. Snidey little Jap sniper shots from the sidelines. No substance other than a puff of wind.

Isn't it time you did your little one liner about the bus?
		
Click to expand...

I'm a lot of things , but unlike you I have  no need to be racist in my posts.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I'm a lot of things , but unlike you I have  no need to be racist in my posts.
		
Click to expand...

You wouldn't recognise a racist if they poked you in the eye.


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## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You wouldn't recognise a racist if they poked you in the eye.
		
Click to expand...

Other than the above racist rant from hobbit,  care to show me where I have called anyone a racist... or are you falling in to the classic brexit loving trap.
I know which is true .


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I'm a lot of things , but unlike you I have  no need to be racist in my posts.
		
Click to expand...

I thought only Leavers were supposed to be thick...


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## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I thought only Leavers were supposed to be thick...

Click to expand...

Oof, obviously not.ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Other than the above racist rant from hobbit,  care to show me where I have called anyone a racist... or are you falling in to the classic brexit loving trap.
I know which is true .
		
Click to expand...

Stupiditys not a crime so your free to go.


----------



## woody69 (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh I see.  Not being content with Millions of unchecked illegal immigrants flooding into Europe is racist is it?  How many did you guys invite into your homes.
		
Click to expand...

It was an abhorrent image that's sole purpose was to create fear of immigrants in the UK. The fact you contextualise it as a representation of "millions of unchecked illegal immigrants flooding into Europe" means it's obviously did its job. 

The photograph used was of mostly Syrian migrants fleeing an actual war zone whilst crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015, with the only prominent white person in the photograph obscured by a box of text. Very few (if any) of those migrants would have come to Britain and I'm not sure how you can make the assertion that after perhaps claiming asylum and not getting it, they then went on the run to become illegal immigrants.

It's nothing but propaganda and it is no wonder it was likened to Nazi images from the 30s


----------



## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Stupiditys not a crime so your free to go.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

woody69 said:



			It was an abhorrent image that's sole purpose was to create fear of immigrants in the UK. The fact you contextualise it as a representation of "millions of unchecked illegal immigrants flooding into Europe" means it's obviously did its job.

The photograph used was of mostly Syrian migrants fleeing an actual war zone whilst crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015, with the only prominent white person in the photograph obscured by a box of text. Very few (if any) of those migrants would have come to Britain and I'm not sure how you can make the assertion that after perhaps claiming asylum and not getting it, they then went on the run to become illegal immigrants.

It's nothing but propaganda and it is no wonder it was likened to Nazi images from the 30s
		
Click to expand...

Dream on. Most of the immigrants were from Sud Saharan countries who were economic migrants and not from war zones. 

Where did I make this assertion that after claiming asylum they went on the run, you made that one up matey.    Maybe you could try and read the post you referenced and respond to that instead of ranting on to suit your own prejudices like most socialist do.  Oh! While were on the subject, how many did you take in.


----------



## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Dream on. Most of the immigrants were from Sud Saharan countries who were economic migrants and not from war zones.

Where did I make this assertion that after claiming asylum they went on the run, you made that one up matey.    Maybe you could try and read the post you referenced and respond to that instead of ranting on to suit your own prejudices like most socialist do.  Oh! While were on the subject, how many did you take in.
		
Click to expand...

Either way all persons who have  no right to come to the UK.  Whom we could turn away should they have tried to. So  not the millions legally coming here that farage would have and seems have got you to believe.  

Tut tut


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Either way all persons who have  no right to come to the UK.  Whom we could turn away should they have tried to. So  not the millions legally coming here that farage would have and seems have got you to believe.

Tut tut
		
Click to expand...

Tut tut! He was actually referring to the EU not doing anything about it. You may not have noticed but he was campaigning for us to leave the EU.

Once taken into countries like Germany and Sweden there is an EU liberty called freedom of movement, I guess you may have heard about it.


----------



## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Once taken into countries like Germany and Sweden there is an EU liberty called freedom of movement, I guess you may have heard about it.
		
Click to expand...

Yes for eu citizens.
sadly farage played on people's fears that the caravan in the poster could head here. 
Unsurprising that so many leavers distanced them selves from this particularly ugly bit of propaganda.


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Dream on. Most of the immigrants were from Sud Saharan countries who were economic migrants and not from war zones.
...
		
Click to expand...

Do you have proof of that?

Btw. I'm pretty sure there's 'war zones' in Sud (Sub?!) Sahara countries too (Sudan for example) - though your wording is certainly (deliberately?) ambiguous.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Do you have proof of that?

Btw. I'm pretty sure there's 'war zones' in Sud (Sub?!) Sahara countries too (Sudan for example) - though your wording is certainly (deliberately?) ambiguous.
		
Click to expand...

I have no intention of discussing anything with you as you are an oddball stalker.  I keep telling you that in the tirade of PMs you are sending me.


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I have no intention of discussing anything with you as you are an oddball stalker.  *I keep telling you that *in the tirade of PMs you are sending me.
		
Click to expand...

To (totally) quote every PM response....



Btw. Seems to me that's also an admission that your assertion re Economic Migrant vs War Zone Refugees was simply twaddle/balderdash!


----------



## drdel (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes for eu citizens.
sadly farage played on people's fears that the caravan in the poster could head here.
Unsurprising that so many leavers distanced them selves from this particularly ugly bit of propaganda.
		
Click to expand...

I'd suggest if you went to parts of the UK and France they'd believe the 'caravan' stopped in their neck of the woods !!


----------



## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'd suggest if you went to parts of the UK and France they'd believe the 'caravan' stopped in their neck of the woods !!
		
Click to expand...

I don't need to look any further than this thread for that....


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes for *eu citizens*.
sadly farage played on people's fears that the caravan in the poster could head here.
Unsurprising that so many leavers distanced them selves from this particularly ugly bit of propaganda.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not 100% certain, but I believe 'Worker' is the relevant phrase! Meaning establishment of 'worker' status in EU country-1 gives that worker te same status in all EU countries.

If that's the case, then Socket's fears are actually reasonable! 

I'd be happy to be properly appraised either way!


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			To (totally) quote every PM response....



Btw. Seems to me that's also an admission that your assertion re Economic Migrant vs War Zone Refugees was simply twaddle/balderdash!
		
Click to expand...

Keep trying, you know how it ends.


----------



## Foxholer (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Keep trying, you know how it ends.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Apr 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			According to The Metro newspaper he's been charged with harassment for what happened with Sourbry - "following her, filming her and calling her a traitor and a Nazi". I can't believe that "following her" and "filming her" can be part of any serious charge against him, otherwise the courts would be full of journalists and photographers every day of the week for doing their jobs.

He's also facing other charges related to incidents with police officers but unrelated to what happened with Sourbry. There's no doubting in my mind that he's a scumbag (and probably a racist one at that) but until he's been convicted of those offences then he's not guilty. But those charges are separate from what he's been charged with in relation to Sourbry which essentially boils down to calling her a Nazi - unless following and filming someone is now also a criminal offence.
		
Click to expand...

I'm no fan of Soubry but what he did was harassment. He hounded her, got in her face and barked at her. It was horrible, she is entitled to have her own personal space.

I don't know precisely what he was done for but being a git should be enough.

The same applies to any person in a similar situation.


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## robinthehood (Apr 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not 100% certain, but I believe 'Worker' is the relevant phrase! Meaning establishment of 'worker' status in EU country-1 gives that worker te same status in all EU countries.

If that's the case, then Socket's fears are actually reasonable! 

I'd be happy to be properly appraised either way!
		
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They're not that either.  So still bs


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## Foxholer (Apr 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			They're not that either.  So still bs
		
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Please expand/explain....aka... What (tf!) do you mean?

Please note/apply my sig!


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## Beezerk (Apr 16, 2019)

Not sure if it's been mentioned but I hear unemployment is at an all time low.
So much for Britain going bust if we voted to leave.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Not sure if it's been mentioned but I hear unemployment is at an all time low.
So much for Britain going bust if we voted to leave.
		
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Listening on the radio this evening and it was actually blamed on Brexit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Not sure if it's been mentioned but I hear unemployment is at an all time low.
So much for Britain going bust if we voted to leave.
		
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Are we not still in the EU ? 

Isnâ€™t most of the issues people worrying about when we actually leave 

So you can say we have unemployment at an all time low whilst in the EU - good news ðŸ‘


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## Beezerk (Apr 16, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Listening on the radio this evening and it was actually blamed on Brexit.
		
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Yeah I heard something like that this morning, something to do with companies employing cheap labour rather than invest in expensive new machinery due to uncertainty over Brexit.
The company I work for make cnc machining centres which aren't cheap, we are absolutely snowed under with work.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are we not still in the EU ?

Isnâ€™t most of the issues people worrying about when we actually leave

So you can say we have unemployment at an all time low whilst in the EU - good news ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...


I think you'll find that the shear mention of the result was suggested to be enough to send the UK into free fall by the economic wizards.


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## adam6177 (Apr 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are we not still in the EU ?

Isnâ€™t most of the issues people worrying about when we actually leave

So you can say we have unemployment at an all time low whilst in the EU - good news ðŸ‘
		
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I think that's the exact issue Phil.... If something good happens in the UK at the moment the argument is put that it's because we're dtill in the EU.  But on the flip side if anything bad happens it's because if brexit..... It can't be both.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 16, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I think you'll find that the shear mention of the result was suggested to be enough to send the UK into free fall by the economic wizards.
		
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Are you suggesting that there were predictions that unemployment would rise by over 500k in the two years following a vote to leave the EU. I can't believe that the Remain campaign would have been desperate enough to predict such an outrageous thing.......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564 

But of course as SiLH would be quick to point out. These weren't "lies" they were predictions or forecasts. Only the Leave campaign told "lies".


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Yeah I heard something like that this morning, something to do with companies employing cheap labour rather than invest in expensive new machinery due to uncertainty over Brexit.
The company I work for make cnc machining centres which aren't cheap, we are absolutely snowed under with work.
		
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Shocking isn't it. MD's and CEO's spending money on a hunch rather than keeping a rainy day fund. All those companies spending a fortune on recruitment, infrastructure to support the new employees and risking their credit ratings. Who'd have thought that businesses would be so reckless with shareholders money, and risk boardroom censure at their respective AGM's. Parliament may well be run by idiots but its looks like businesses are equally stupid. How very dare they be so successful, and as a consequence rubbishing the claims of all those that said the sky would fall in.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are you suggesting that there were predictions that unemployment would rise by over 500k in the two years following a vote to leave the EU. I can't believe that the Remain campaign would have been desperate enough to predict such an outrageous thing.......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564

But of course as SiLH would be quick to point out. These weren't "lies" they were predictions or forecasts. Only the Leave campaign told "lies".
		
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And the new jobs (around half a million) were in full time or self employed positions mainly.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Shocking isn't it. MD's and CEO's spending money on a hunch rather than keeping a rainy day fund. All those companies spending a fortune on recruitment, infrastructure to support the new employees and risking their credit ratings. Who'd have thought that businesses would be so reckless with shareholders money, and risk boardroom censure at their respective AGM's. Parliament may well be run by idiots but its looks like businesses are equally stupid. How very dare they be so successful, and as a consequence rubbishing the claims of all those that said the sky would fall in.
		
Click to expand...

It just cant be business creating the jobs, that's the job of the EU ðŸ¤”


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I think you'll find that the shear mention of the result was suggested to be enough to send the UK into free fall by the economic wizards.
		
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It was a prediction , Iâ€™m sure there have been plenty of predictions on both sides that will have been proved to be incorrect but surely it should only be facts to look at

We are still in the EU and employment  has risen

Is there a link between to two ? Who knows ? Is there a link between Brexit ? Who knows - either way the main thing is we have more people in work and it should be a good thing not something to use to score points as per usual


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## adam6177 (Apr 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are you suggesting that there were predictions that unemployment would rise by over 500k in the two years following a vote to leave the EU. I can't believe that the Remain campaign would have been desperate enough to predict such an outrageous thing.......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564

But of course as SiLH would be quick to point out. These weren't "lies" they were predictions or forecasts. Only the Leave campaign told "lies".
		
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It's funny, when I mention those predictions to remainers are work they claim that no such forecast was ever made.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was a prediction , Iâ€™m sure there have been plenty of predictions on both sides that will have been proved to be incorrect but surely it should only be facts to look at

We are still in the EU and unemployment has risen

Is there a link between to two ? Who knows ? Is there a link between Brexit ? Who knows - either way the main thing is we have more people in work and it should be a good thing not something to use to score points as per usual
		
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Employment has risen by half a million in the last year. Great news, dont you agree.

If you believe these jobs are created due to us being in the EU then why isn't it a trend throughout the EU.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*It was a prediction* , Iâ€™m sure there have been plenty of predictions on both sides that will have been proved to be incorrect but surely it should only be facts to look at

We are still in the EU and unemployment has risen

Is there a link between to two ? Who knows ? Is there a link between Brexit ? Who knows - either way the main thing is we have more people in work and it should be a good thing not something to use to score points as per usual
		
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You're starting to sound like SiLH there. 

If we are to continue your logic then why do we hear so much about all the lies that were told by the Leave campaign? We're still in the EU at the minute so anything that the Leave campaign said/predicted/forecast cannot be thrown back at them until we actually leave. We wouldn't want to be accused of double standards or hypocrisy would we?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Employment has risen.

If you believe these jobs are created due to us being in the EU then why isn't it a trend throughout the EU.
		
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I ask you to read my last paragraph again


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			You're starting to sound like SiLH there.

If we are to continue your logic then why do we hear so much about all the lies that were told by the Leave campaign? We're still in the EU at the minute so anything that the Leave campaign said/predicted/forecast cannot be thrown back at them until we actually leave. We wouldn't want to be accused of double standards or hypocrisy would we?
		
Click to expand...

As I said in my post 

Predictions were made by both sides which will no doubt be seen to be untrue

I do believe only one campaign was found to have broken some rules ? I have no idea what has been thrown back into anyoneâ€™s face - tried to look at the thread but it seems to have turned into tit for tat insults and point scoring


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I ask you to read my last paragraph again
		
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The answer is Yes then.

Read your second paragraph again.


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As I said in my post

Predictions were made by both sides which will no doubt be seen to be untrue

I do believe only one campaign was found to have broken some rules ? I have no idea what has been thrown back into anyoneâ€™s face - tried to look at the thread but it seems to have turned into tit for tat insults and point scoring
		
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Its a pity the govt couldn't be prosecuted for spending Â£9 million on a leaflet before campaigning officially started. Leave campaign did do a number of things wrong, and illegal, but I see no difference in terms of morality for the Â£9 million spent on the leaflet.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As I said in my post

Predictions were made by both sides which will no doubt be seen to be untrue

*I do believe only one campaign was found to have broken some rules ?* I have no idea what has been thrown back into anyoneâ€™s face - tried to look at the thread but it seems to have turned into tit for tat insults and point scoring
		
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Not according to this...

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ameron/news/91572/official-eu-remain-campaign


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer is Yes then.

Read your second paragraph again.
		
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Is there a link between to two ?* Who knows* ? Is there a link between Brexit ? *Who knows - *either way the main thing is we have more people in work and it should be a good thing not something to use to score points as per usual

I thought it was simple to understand

Anyway itâ€™s clear what the thread has turned into with you at the forefront so Iâ€™ll do as most have and leave you and your pack to it


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is there a link between to two ?* Who knows* ? Is there a link between Brexit ? *Who knows - *either way the main thing is we have more people in work and it should be a good thing not something to use to score points as per usual

I thought it was simple to understand
		
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You said unemployment had risen.   Take a look at your own post if you want to see point scoring ðŸ™„


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You said unemployment had risen.   Take a look at your own post if you want to see point scoring ðŸ™„
		
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Quite clearly a grammar mistake but you carry on ðŸ™„


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Quite clearly a grammar mistake but you carry on ðŸ™„
		
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Who knows?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Who knows?
		
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ðŸ™„


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2019)

Predictions and lies, who knows. The truth is out there - somewhere.

Naughty boys spending to much private money. The goodies spending as much public money as they like.  Strange that people are happy to use that as an argument.


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## Dando (Apr 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not according to this...

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ameron/news/91572/official-eu-remain-campaign

Click to expand...

Iâ€™m sure that will get ignored!


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## Hobbit (Apr 17, 2019)

The link below is to a trade paper, not a piece of propaganda. Its full of numbers and facts about the current state of manufacturing in various sectors in the UK. Its an interesting read.

One comment in it - "the UK is currently 9th in the world in manufacturing, and will rise to 5th by 2021." It certainly brings into question the oft heard comment that the UK's manufacturing industry has been decimated through the 70's and 80's. And there's a lot in it that raises a few questions about what the doom mongers continue to say.

Rather than take on board too much from politicians and the main stream media, it sometimes helps to do a little research.

uk-manufacturing-statistics


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## oxymoron (Apr 17, 2019)

Caught a bit of the Lib Dems political broadcast last night , Cable was on about overturning the "wafer thin " majority of the referendum , i bet if he got in on such a majority he would not be asking for that one to be overturned.
It just winds me up , a majority was gained ,bloody act on it if not get off the pot and let someone who is willing to have a go get on with it .Hypocrites the lot of them they would all be happy enough if they were elected with such a majority !!!


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## woody69 (Apr 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Dream on. Most of the immigrants were from Sud Saharan countries who were economic migrants and not from war zones.

Where did I make this assertion that after claiming asylum they went on the run, you made that one up matey.    Maybe you could try and read the post you referenced and respond to that instead of ranting on to suit your own prejudices like most socialist do.  Oh! While were on the subject, how many did you take in.
		
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Dream on about what? I was making a specific remark about the poster Farage used as part of his campaign. It's a fact the picture was of Syrian migrants fleeing whilst crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015.

With regards to your other question, where you asked where you made the assertion that after claiming asylum they went on the run, you said:




			Millions of unchecked illegal immigrants flooding into Europe is racist is it
		
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For an immigrant to become an "illegal immigrant" they need to have entered the country illegally and not claimed asylum, had their asylum request turned down and then stayed instead of returning to their country of origin or even overstayed on their visa. You're the one who appears to have conflated the image of that poster with "millions of unchecked illegal immigrants flooding into Europe", as that was what was being discussed and why I responded in the way I did. However, if you do want to extend the conversation onto the more general topic of immigration into Europe and the EU rather than the poster we were discussing it might be worth having a read of these articles first:

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/ 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...n-crisis-how-many-people-are-on-the-move.html 
https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-migrants-are-coming-europe-and-uk/ 

Hopefully you will see from the figures that it isn't quite the "millions" you appear to believe it is.

Also, although a little old now, these are interesting articles on whether migration in itself (those economic migrants you mentioned) are good for the economy or not:

http://www.oecd.org/migration/OECD Migration Policy Debates Numero 2.pdf 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuart...migrants-key-to-economic-growth/#a5dd52f7dabd 

I'm not sure why you have labelled me a socialist, (especially as you seem to be using it as some kind of ad hominem attack)?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 17, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Caught a bit of the Lib Dems political broadcast last night , Cable was on about overturning the "wafer thin " majority of the referendum , i bet if he got in on such a majority he would not be asking for that one to be overturned.
It just winds me up , a majority was gained ,bloody act on it if not get off the pot and let someone who is willing to have a go get on with it .Hypocrites the lot of them they would all be happy enough if they were elected with such a majority !!!
		
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Not 100% sure the lib dems are 'on the pot' and are the problem here. Getting angry and blaming the lib dems for some specific form of Brexit people thought they were voting for not happening is kind of missing the point IMHO.


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## robinthehood (Apr 17, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Caught a bit of the Lib Dems political broadcast last night , Cable was on about overturning the "wafer thin " majority of the referendum , i bet if he got in on such a majority he would not be asking for that one to be overturned.
It just winds me up , a majority was gained ,bloody act on it if not get off the pot and let someone who is willing to have a go get on with it .Hypocrites the lot of them they would all be happy enough if they were elected with such a majority !!!
		
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It's the hard line erg brexit bad boys who in the end have scuppered the brexit dream. Not the lib dems .


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## jp5 (Apr 17, 2019)

How many Tory Leavers voted in confidence of Theresa May but then repeatedly against her deal?

That's where your ire should be aimed.


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## Slime (Apr 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are we not still in the EU ?

Isnâ€™t most of the issues people worrying about when we actually leave

*So you can say we have unemployment at an all time low whilst in the EU - good news ðŸ‘*

Click to expand...

Or, you can say we have unemployment at an all time low despite being in the EU.


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## adam6177 (Apr 17, 2019)

Slime said:



			Or, you can say we have unemployment at an all time low despite being in the EU.
		
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With language skills like that the BBC will have you writing for them in no time at all!


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## drdel (Apr 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's the hard line erg brexit bad boys who in the end have scuppered the brexit dream. Not the lib dems .
		
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Strange deduction when Parliament voted for actioning the Referendum result. A parliament majority (despite a minority Government) triggered the Article 50 process. The reality is that a significant number of politicians from  all parties oppose (despite their Party manifesto promises) the Referendum result.

The ERG is one faction following the promises of both Labour and Tories


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## jp5 (Apr 17, 2019)

The ERG have been frustrating the Brexit process as much as any of the ultra-remainers.


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## Foxholer (Apr 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The link below is to a trade paper, not a piece of propaganda. Its full of numbers and facts about the current state of manufacturing in various sectors in the UK. Its an interesting read.

One comment in it - "the UK is currently 9th in the world in manufacturing, and will rise to 5th by 2021." It certainly brings into question the oft heard comment that the UK's manufacturing industry has been decimated through the 70's and 80's. And there's a lot in it that raises a few questions about what the doom mongers continue to say.

Rather than take on board too much from politicians and the main stream media, it sometimes helps to do a little research.

uk-manufacturing-statistics

Click to expand...

H'mm! I'm inclined to believe that publication has got a considerable 'propaganda' (to use your word, but mine would probably be 'positivity') element to it!

But, with no axe to grind, I believe a touch of 'reality' needs to be applied to your enthusiasm/positivity!

The first sentence of the body of the publication actually starts 'Despite the decline since the 1970s...', so perhaps the comment about UK manufacturin declining is correct.

You've also produced a quote about UK's current and projected world ranking. However, you've dropped an extremely important part from that quote! The prediction about UK rising to 5th was actually '...*If current growth trends continue*, the UK will break into the top five by 2021'! So a huge disclaimer that you should have included  As it is, there's no obvious explanation of that claim. 

In fact, the ranking chart showing UK's 9th position also shows that the previous year it was higher at 8th! I'd like to know how they arrived at that 'top 5 by 2021' prediction!


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## Mudball (Apr 17, 2019)

Not sure if this will swing any voters among the 50+ golf demographics but she makes some interesting points..  itâ€™s about taking back control..

https://www.ted.com/talks/carole_ca...in_brexit_and_the_threat_to_democracy/up-next


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## oxymoron (Apr 17, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not 100% sure the lib dems are 'on the pot' and are the problem here. Getting angry and blaming the lib dems for some specific form of Brexit people thought they were voting for not happening is kind of missing the point IMHO.
		
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robinthehood said:



			It's the hard line erg brexit bad boys who in the end have scuppered the brexit dream. Not the lib dems .
		
Click to expand...

If you both would take the time to read what i said , i was saying they want to overturn a majority vote i never blamed them for the mess i was just pointing out in the first sentence that if it suits they seem to want to ignore the will of the people who voted , and in the second sentence i was saying a majority was gained so act on it .And in the third i was just having a rant i should have stated that any MP would not turn their noses up at a majority like was voted if it meant they could get back in to the Westminster gravy train. Sorry if it was not clear enough for you .


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## Mudball (Apr 18, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			If you both would take the time to read what i said , i was saying they want to overturn a majority vote i never blamed them for the mess i was just pointing out in the first sentence that if it suits they seem to want to ignore the will of the people who voted , and in the second sentence i was saying a majority was gained so act on it .And in the third i was just having a rant i should have stated that any MP would not turn their noses up at a majority like was voted if it meant they could get back in to the Westminster gravy train. Sorry if it was not clear enough for you .
		
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Given that the Lib Demâ€™s fought the GE on the ticket that they would rerun the referendum.. would you blame them for sticking to their election promise (unlike others?)


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 18, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Given that the Lib Demâ€™s fought the GE on the ticket that they would rerun the referendum.. would you blame them for sticking to their election promise (unlike others?)
		
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How extremely commendable of them; and utterly stupid. Running a GE campaign where you effectively tell the people whose votes you want that you wish to ignore the result of a previous vote, and therefore by extension are quite likely to ignore the outcome of future votes.

I donâ€™t know about on the pot, but it sounds like the logic of someone who is on pot to me.


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## PieMan (Apr 18, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			How extremely commendable of them; and utterly stupid. Running a GE campaign where you effectively tell the people whose votes you want that you wish to ignore the result of a previous vote, and therefore by extension are quite likely to ignore the outcome of future votes.

I donâ€™t know about on the pot, but it sounds like the logic of someone who is on pot to me.
		
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The same Lib Dems who - if I recall correctly - were the main party calling for a referendum on Europe a couple of elections ago!! Granted they were in favour of remaining but fully prepared to let the people decide......! ðŸ˜€


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## Hobbit (Apr 18, 2019)

PieMan said:



			The same Lib Dems who - if I recall correctly - were the main party calling for a referendum on Europe a couple of elections ago!! Granted they were in favour of remaining but fully prepared to let the people decide......! ðŸ˜€
		
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That'll be the same LibDems that were almost annihilated in the last GE. They're obviously very good...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That'll be the same LibDems that were almost annihilated in the last GE. They're obviously very good...
		
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The same LibDems who are no longer Dems.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2019)

I love the thoughtful anti EU bill boards that advises leave types to boycott the EU elections and not to vote for the 'unelected bureaucrats' 

I sense the hand of Nigel.


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## drdel (Apr 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I love the thoughtful anti EU bill boards that advises leave types to boycott the EU elections and not to vote for the 'unelected bureaucrats' 

I sense the hand of Nigel.
		
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Much more likely to be the SNP....


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Not sure if this will swing any voters among the 50+ golf demographics but she makes some interesting points..  itâ€™s about taking back control..

https://www.ted.com/talks/carole_ca...in_brexit_and_the_threat_to_democracy/up-next

Click to expand...

I don't think it will swing many. She goes on about her Welshness but doesn't have a Welsh accent, she has this annoying theme to her lecture that insinuated the people who voted Leave didn't understand   the issues, she then goes on to suggest every thing in the town that has improved since the nasty Tories closed down the pits is due to the generosity of the EU.

She seems unaware that the so called EU funding for those projects has to be part funded by UK government and the rest comes out of the huge amount we pay into the EU coffers.

She does her kinsmen down by suggesting they cannot see beyond the Daily Mail headlines and only the likes of journalists like her can see through their racisit and blinkered views.

I guess she is probably a card carrying member of  Remain and incapable of seeing any other view point.  

Maybe she should take up golf ðŸ˜‰


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## woody69 (Apr 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't think it will swing many. She goes on about her Welshness but doesn't have a Welsh accent, she has this annoying theme to her lecture that insinuated the people who voted Leave didn't understand   the issues, she then goes on to suggest every thing in the town that has improved since the nasty Tories closed down the pits is due to the generosity of the EU.

She seems unaware that the so called EU funding for those projects has to be part funded by UK government and the rest comes out of the huge amount we pay into the EU coffers.

She does her kinsmen down by suggesting they cannot see beyond the Daily Mail headlines and only the likes of journalists like her can see through their racisit and blinkered views.

I guess she is probably a card carrying member of  Remain and incapable of seeing any other view point.

Maybe she should take up golf ðŸ˜‰
		
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The irony of this post...


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't think it will swing many. S*he goes on about her Welshness but doesn't have a Welsh accent*, she has this annoying theme to her lecture that insinuated the people who voted Leave didn't understand   the issues, she then goes on to suggest every thing in the town that has improved since the nasty Tories closed down the pits is due to the generosity of the EU.

She seems unaware that the so called EU funding for those projects has to be part funded by UK government and the rest comes out of the huge amount we pay into the EU coffers.

She does her kinsmen down by suggesting they cannot see beyond the Daily Mail headlines and only the likes of journalists like her can see through their racisit and blinkered views.

I guess she is probably a card carrying member of  Remain and incapable of seeing any other view point.

Maybe she should take up golf ðŸ˜‰
		
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Would you have believed the points more if Nessa from Gavin and Stacy had presented it instead of a highly respected and award winning investigative journalist?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Would you have believed the points more if Nessa from Gavin and Stacy had presented it instead of a highly respected and award winning investigative journalist?
		
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Highly respected by the Left but generally felt by many  others to have a rather limited agenda.

Certainly difficult to see much of her work  as objective.

It is, however, difficult to see what is the relevance of her accent.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Would you have believed the points more if Nessa from Gavin and Stacy had presented it instead of a highly respected and award winning investigative journalist?
		
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Is that all you have in a return discussion: Sarcasm ?
I made the point due to her going on about her Welshness and her being amazed at how Welsh people can be so stupid and racist to vote for Brexit.   How does being Welsh give her a special insight.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			The irony of this post...
		
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Is it ironic due to me being a supporter of leaving the EU?   If that's the case this thread just as well be closed down now if we cant pass comment on a link someone has posted without someone making juvenile digs.  Why don't you argue a case instead of throwing sticks, I am not a journalist standing on a stage making accusations of racism and stupidity about people who voted  differently, actually I dont make any accusations against Remainers, I just constantly duck blows from their direction.


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## woody69 (Apr 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Is it ironic due to me being a supporter of leaving the EU?   If that's the case this thread just as well be closed down now if we cant pass comment on a link someone has posted without someone making juvenile digs.  Why don't you argue a case instead of throwing sticks, I am not a journalist standing on a stage making accusations of racism and stupidity about people who voted  differently, actually I dont make any accusations against Remainers, I just constantly duck blows from their direction.
		
Click to expand...

No, it's ironic because your said 



			incapable of seeing any other view point
		
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I'm happy to be corrected, but I don't believe you have ever conceded to any alternative view from leaving the EU or benefit being in the union brings to Britain.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			No, it's ironic because your said

I'm happy to be corrected, but I don't believe you have ever conceded to any alternative view from leaving the EU or benefit being in the union brings to Britain.
		
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Thats because I think the EU is bad for the UK and we can create a better country outside it.  However, I do not stand on a stage accusing people who voted Remain of being stupid or racist, I accept that those who voted to remain are entitled to their opinion and voted in good faith for what they considered best.   I do defend my view when its questioned or indeed attacked but I do not deal in this myself, as much as it may surprise you and some others.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			No, it's ironic because your said 

I'm happy to be corrected, but I don't believe you have ever conceded to any alternative view from leaving the EU or benefit being in the union brings to Britain.
		
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But does that  not illustrate the complete futility of this thread.

I don't think anyone has changed their stance as a result of alternative opinions offered by fellow forumers. 

For nearly three years now the discussion has been dominated by committed, or dogmatic, Remainers and Leavers.

Perhaps I am wrong and someone will come forward to say that they have changed due to this thread but, so far, I have seen nothing to suggest this may be the case.


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			But does that  not illustrate the complete futility of this thread.

I don't think anyone has changed their stance as a result of alternative opinions offered by fellow forumers.

For nearly three years now the discussion has been dominated by committed, or dogmatic, Remainers and Leavers.

Perhaps I am wrong and someone will come forward to say that they have changed due to this thread but, so far, I have seen nothing to suggest this may be the case.
		
Click to expand...

Its difficult to gauge from the polls too. In the run up to the vote, Remain was leading. The week after the vote, Remain was still leading comfortably. Leave didn't lead in the polls till Oct '16, through to July '17. And Leave led briefly around March '18.

Bizarrely, for all the "people are better informed now," the don't knows are on exactly the same number, having barely changed in the last 3 years. But we should have another vote because we're better informed sounds like a smokescreen when you look at the polling.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its difficult to gauge from the polls too. In the run up to the vote, Remain was leading. The week after the vote, Remain was still leading comfortably. Leave didn't lead in the polls till Oct '16, through to July '17. And Leave led briefly around March '18.

Bizarrely, for all the "people are better informed now," the don't knows are on exactly the same number, having barely changed in the last 3 years. But we should have another vote because we're better informed sounds like a smokescreen when you look at the polling.
		
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Exactly!

And if we have another vote it seems reasonable to assume that the result is likely to be just as close as the original. 

In which case why should we believe that the outcome will be better  accepted than before.


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## drdel (Apr 21, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			But does that  not illustrate the complete futility of this thread.

I don't think anyone has changed their stance as a result of alternative opinions offered by fellow forumers.

*For nearly three years now the discussion has been dominated by committed, or dogmatic, Remainers and Leavers.*

Perhaps I am wrong and someone will come forward to say that they have changed due to this thread but, so far, I have seen nothing to suggest this may be the case.
		
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Pretty balanced and reflective of society then ! 

If you expect a discussion on Golf Forum to modify peoples' opinions you'll be forever disappointed and need to recognise what's really important - relax  'Live and let live'

IMO this is a place for simple amusement and the exchange of views made interesting by the differences between one person and another - if some are more informed than others: so what?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			Pretty balanced and reflective of society then ! 

If you expect a discussion on Golf Forum to modify peoples' opinions you'll be forever disappointed and need to recognise what's really important - relax  'Live and let live'

IMO this is a place for simple amusement and the exchange of views made interesting by the differences between one person and another - if some are more informed than others: so what?
		
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But is it too much to expect the debate or discussion to be conducted in something at least approaching an adult  manner.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2019)

I suppose we will get the usual response from the guys/gals who still think the leave/stay vote on a second referendum is too close to call.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I suppose we will get the usual response from the guys/gals who still think the leave/stay vote on a second referendum is too close to call.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/

Click to expand...

But what did the polls show prior to the original referendum in 2016?

In any event my point stands. If this 54 : 46 was the result it is not really any more conclusive than 52 : 48 the other way. 

Therein lies the problem. Half the country are happy to remain within the EU and the other half wants out.

Three years after  the question was first posed nothing has changed!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			But what did the polls show prior to the original referendum in 2016?

In any event my point stands. If this 54 : 46 was the result it is not really any more conclusive than 52 : 48 the other way.

Therein lies the problem. Half the country are happy to remain within the EU and the other half wants out.

Three years after  the question was first posed nothing has changed!
		
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I agree with you that 54-46 in a referendum is not conclusive.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I agree with you that 54-46 in a referendum is not conclusive. 

Click to expand...

That was (one of) the problem(s) of the original referendum. 

If at least 60per cent had voted Remain then the question should not be asked again for  at least 15 or 20 years.

Similarly to Leave should have required at least the same majority. 

Trouble is it's too late now.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 22, 2019)

The only polls that matter are the ones that require getting up from a comfy sofa and taking a trip down the road even on a wet day...


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## adam6177 (Apr 24, 2019)

A couple of musings from some articles I've stumbled across over the last couple of days.

The Brexit party have some pretty "decent" candidates now that should appeal to a broad range of voters, Ann Widdecombe being the latest addition today. I'm very interested to see how the party progress.

Also I've been reading on the multi million pound EU grants the BBC have received for many years now, along with Â£141m of "soft loans" - which goes to explain the BBC stance and bias shown in recent years.  (Sources for these reports are The Times and The Telegraph).


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 24, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			A couple of musings from some articles I've stumbled across over the last couple of days.

*The Brexit party have some pretty "decent" candidates now that should appeal to a broad range of voters, Ann Widdecombe being the latest addition today.* I'm very interested to see how the party progress.

Also I've been reading on the multi million pound EU grants the BBC have received for many years now, along with Â£141m of "soft loans" - which goes to explain the BBC stance and bias shown in recent years.  (Sources for these reports are The Times and The Telegraph).
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm sure the 'comedy useless dancer of the type that Anton always gets in Strictly' is a great addition to our political landscape at the moment.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, I'm sure the 'comedy useless dancer of the type that Anton always gets in Strictly' is a great addition to our political landscape at the moment.

View attachment 27153

Click to expand...

I wonder if we would have seen this type of comment had Ms Widdecombe announced that she was joining the Independent Group?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 24, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I wonder if we would have seen this type of comment had Ms Widdecombe announced that she was joining the Independent Group?
		
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You donâ€™t wonder at all, you know the answer to that one.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 24, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I wonder if we would have seen this type of comment had Ms Widdecombe announced that she was joining the Independent Group?
		
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That's just ridiculous whataboutery. It's like me asking if Soubry or Dianne Abbot joined UKIP would UKIP voters who regularly have a go at them change their minds. She will not join them as she does not align politically with them in any way. Despite the fact that she was the comedy dancer in Strictly for whatever year she was in it, her politics and views are not something I align with, to quote wikipidia '_Widdecombe was known for opposing the legality of abortion, her opposition to various issues of LGBT rights such as an equal age of consent and the repeal of Section 28,_ _In 1996, Widdecombe, as prisons minister, defended the Government's policy to shackle pregnant prisoners with handcuffs and chains when in hospital receiving ante-natal care ._

Great if you like that kind of thing or are wiling to look over it as she has joined the Brexit party, but not for me and not a great addition to our politics IMHO.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			That's just ridiculous whataboutery. It's like me asking if Soubry or Dianne Abbot joined UKIP would UKIP voters who regularly have a go at them change their minds. She will not join them as she does not align politically with them in any way. Despite the fact that she was the comedy dancer in Strictly for whatever year she was in it, her politics and views are not something I align with, to quote wikipidia '_Widdecombe was known for opposing the legality of abortion, her opposition to various issues of LGBT rights such as an equal age of consent and the repeal of Section 28,_ _In 1996, Widdecombe, as prisons minister, defended the Government's policy to shackle pregnant prisoners with handcuffs and chains when in hospital receiving ante-natal care ._

Great if you like that kind of thing or are wiling to look over it as she has joined the Brexit party, but not for me and not a great addition to our politics IMHO.
		
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Nothing to do with "whataboutery".

Just an attempt to raise the debate above the level of juvenile. 

I appreciate that you may have reservations as a result of her position on certain issues and I may share some of you concerns. 

However, there is nothing to be gained by attempting to ridicule her personally.

BTW I find Wikipedia a very doubtful source as there is little or no control of what  may be posted.


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## adam6177 (Apr 24, 2019)

I think it would be difficult to find an MP with whom you agree with on ALL aspects.


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## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			A couple of musings from some articles I've stumbled across over the last couple of days.

The Brexit party have some pretty "decent" candidates now that should appeal to a broad range of voters, Ann Widdecombe being the latest addition today. I'm very interested to see how the party progress.

Also I've been reading on the multi million pound EU grants the BBC have received for many years now, along with Â£141m of "soft loans" - which goes to explain the BBC stance and bias shown in recent years.  (Sources for these reports are The Times and The Telegraph).
		
Click to expand...

As much as I disagree with some of her beliefs, she's very good in other areas. One thing is for sure, she's no wishy-washy yoghurt knitter.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2019)

It looks more and more likely that parliament will find a way to renague on their promises to the British voters  on respecting the EU referendum vote. A question for those supporting this act of political vandalism: If we end up staying in the EU what will be done to recognise the wishes of the majority who voted to leave?   Will we be told to get over it, suck it up or would there be a determined effort to make changes to our membership that goes someway to pacify us.

I envisage some troubled times ahead for our nation, even if we stay in; the SNP will continue with their real agenda of leaving the UK, there is the spectre of Corbyn breaking our ecconomy before he is too old with his tried and tested destructive policies. The feelings of frustration held by so many due to the self serving neo-treachery of our politicans may well create a culture where many will vote in a way to  try and create disruption and instability.

Be very careful of what you wish for,  I cannot see this ending well, no deal may well have been a better option.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 25, 2019)

Peston tweet.

This matters. The International Commission of Labourâ€™s National Policy Forum - which consists of MPs, trade unionists, MEPs, and constituency representatives - has just voted UNANIMOUSLY that Labourâ€™s manifesto for EU elections should pledge to hold a confirmatory referendum... 
on any Brexit deal. My sources say there were no dissenting voices. And yesterday all Labour MEPs voted in precisely the same unanimous way, for a referendum. Tomorrow Labourâ€™s Trade Union Liaison Organisation is likely to inform the partyâ€™s ruling NEC that its big... 
Unite - also want a referendum. So it is increasingly hard to see how Labourâ€™s ruling NEC can next Tuesday, at its emergency meeting ignore such widespread membership pressure and do anything but adopt... 
a confirmatory referendum as the foundation of its manifesto. That said many senior Labour figures tell me they worry Seumas Milne and @*jeremycorbyn* will somehow find a way to prevent the party adopting an unambiguous pledge to campaign for a referendum. As one senior Labour... said to me, â€œit is a test of whether Jeremy really believes in party democracyâ€.


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## Mudball (Apr 25, 2019)

i must say, i switched off the whole Brexit for the past 2 weeks..  have many other pressing things + was not in the UK (so avoided all the Media storm).  It is funny how the world outside UK & EU is fairly neutral to the whole Brexit thing - except sympathising with 'you poor Brits cant make your minds' or 'i know you are suffering' etc etc. 

Was a good Brexit free weeks..  Must do this more often


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## chrisd (Apr 25, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			As one senior Labour... said to me, â€œit is a test of whether Jeremy really believes in party democracyâ€.
		
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I'd rather he believe in national democracy than party democracy


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 25, 2019)

Shamelessly stolen from social media.

Electile disfunction; the inability to be aroused by any of the candidates standing for election.

Seems quite appropriate when we are discussing our current parliamentarians.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Is this an anti-brexit software advert?
ðŸ’»ðŸ’¾ðŸ“€ðŸ´â€â˜ ï¸
		
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Why don't you take one for the team and check out a few of the links that have been provided.


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## JamesR (Apr 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why don't you take one for the team and check out a few of the links that have been provided. 

Click to expand...

It says to press the big red button to delete the internet 

ðŸ”´

Shall I do it?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			It says to press the big red button to delete the internet

ðŸ”´

Shall I do it?
		
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Go for it. What's the worst that can happen? At least if you delete the internet (just from your PC or the actually the whole internet?) then there's no chance of getting any viruses so you won't need the Norton antivirus that's being promoted.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why don't you take one for the team and check out a few of the links that have been provided. 

Click to expand...

Why bother?  It'll obviously be to an anti virus, just as it says; it's not like you'd get anything misleading in a political thread, is it...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 26, 2019)

Oh great, I have been off the scale for a few days walking in the Dales.
I come back to find out that it is odds on IdiotmanboyBoris will be the next PM, with Nigel and  Whiddycombe in his cabinet.


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## Old Skier (Apr 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh great, I have been off the scale for a few days walking in the Dales.
I come back to find out that it is odds on IdiotmanboyBoris will be the next PM, with Nigel and  Whiddycombe in his cabinet.

Click to expand...

Today's most made up idiots post goes to the laughing Scotsman


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh great, I have been off the scale for a few days walking in the Dales.
I come back to find out that it is odds on IdiotmanboyBoris will be the next PM, with Nigel and  Whiddycombe in his cabinet.

Click to expand...

It could be worse Doon. We could have Corbyn as PM with Abbott as Chancellor.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			It could be worse Doon. We could have Corbyn as PM with Abbott as Chancellor. 

Click to expand...

 And Blackstock as Brexit Secretary.


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## adam6177 (Apr 30, 2019)

BBC info

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/22/stop-bias-against-brexit-face-fine-bbc-warned/


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## Kellfire (Apr 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			BBC info

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/22/stop-bias-against-brexit-face-fine-bbc-warned/

Click to expand...

So basically there is no proven bias and itâ€™s someone who wants there to be proven bias.

Ok then. My turn.

I, KELLFIRE, (as someone who exists) demands the Telegraph stop pretending that Brexit is a good thing because it clearly isnâ€™t as per the vast majority of financial and societal experts. I will REPORT this grievous transgression to the HIGH AUTHORITIES FORTHWITH if my expectation is not met within 89 minutes!


And with this declaration I have as much power as this article. Moving on...


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## Fade and Die (Apr 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			BBC info

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/22/stop-bias-against-brexit-face-fine-bbc-warned/

Click to expand...


About time someone pointed out the blindingly obvious.... ðŸ¤” Organisation that receives funding from the EU falsely portrays leaving the EU as negative.? 

Whoâ€™d have thought?


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## Kellfire (Apr 30, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			About time someone pointed out the blindingly obvious.... ðŸ¤” Organisation that receives funding from the EU falsely portrays leaving the EU as negative.?

Whoâ€™d have thought?
		
Click to expand...

A newspaper who benefits from Brexit portrays staying in the UK as positive?

Whoâ€™d have thought?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 30, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			About time someone pointed out the blindingly obvious.... ðŸ¤” Organisation that receives funding from the EU falsely portrays leaving the EU as negative.?

Whoâ€™d have thought?
		
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Kellfire said:



			A newspaper who benefits from Brexit portrays staying in the UK as positive?

Whoâ€™d have thought?
		
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Surely the big difference is that people can choose whether or not to buy the Telegraph whereas people don't have a choice whether to pay for the BBC and part of its mandate is to be impartial and free from political interference.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			A newspaper who benefits from Brexit portrays staying in the UK as positive?

Whoâ€™d have thought?
		
Click to expand...

Could you please explain how the Daily Telegraph benefits from Brexit?

I agree that their editorial stance is supportive of Brexit but I am afraid that I cannot see how they benefit.


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## Kellfire (Apr 30, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Could you please explain how the Daily Telegraph benefits from Brexit?

I agree that their editorial stance is supportive of Brexit but I am afraid that I cannot see how they benefit.
		
Click to expand...

Look up their ownership and editorial slant. Yes, itâ€™s a lazy response but I wonâ€™t claim anything else.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Look up their ownership and editorial slant. Yes, itâ€™s a lazy response but I wonâ€™t claim anything else.
		
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So you accept that the Telegraph does not BENEFIT from Brexit. 

I have already acknowledged their support for leaving and yes, thank you, I am  well aware of the paper's ownership. 

Historically newspapers have always taken  a stance on political issues but the question was whether, on Brexit,  the BBC as a State  sponsored broadcaster has remained impartial as its Charter requires.


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## Kellfire (Apr 30, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			So you accept that the Telegraph does not BENEFIT from Brexit.

I have already acknowledged their support for leaving and yes, thank you, I am  well aware of the paper's ownership.

Historically newspapers have always taken  a stance on political issues but the question was whether, on Brexit,  the BBC as a State  sponsored broadcaster has remained impartial as its Charter requires.
		
Click to expand...

Wow. The blind will not see.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Wow. The blind will not see.
		
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Yes I can see that you have that difficulty.

Manifests itself  in an inability to face the question that has been asked,  quite probably due to not having an answer.


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## Mudball (Apr 30, 2019)

So the great British marquee JLRâ€™s new Defender will not be made in Britain but in Slovakia. 

How long till someone blames Brexit or â€˜the Indian ownersâ€™ for this?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			BBC info

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/22/stop-bias-against-brexit-face-fine-bbc-warned/

Click to expand...

Brexiteer Tory MP complains that the BBC does not slavishly repeat the views of leavers without question, that is printed by a paper with a strong leave bias. Hold the front page, it must be true.........

You claim that article is true, I'll claim this claim is true. Or alternatively we could both say the truth that it is desperate paranoid conspiratorial BS on both sides, but where's the fun in that.   The fact that the BBC upsets the more easily triggered on both sides means they are probably doing their job quite well.  



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/964759938118668289


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Brexiteer Tory MP complains that the BBC does not slavishly repeat the views of leavers without question, that is printed by a paper with a strong leave bias. Hold the front page, it must be true.........

You claim that article is true, I'll claim this claim is true. Or alternatively we could both say the truth that it is desperate paranoid conspiratorial BS on both sides, but where's the fun in that.   The fact that the BBC upsets the more easily triggered on both sides means they are probably doing their job quite well.  



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/964759938118668289

Click to expand...

Maybe someone will  benefit from this.   Maybe Bercow will become the new Director General when he retires as Speaker and continue the current levels of impartiality.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe someone will  benefit from this.   Maybe Bercow will become the new Director General when he retires as Speaker and continue the current levels of impartiality.
		
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No, I'm afraid you have got it wrong as this completely unbiased source says the BBC is right wing. So it must be true as I am very easily triggered.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/17/bbc-leftwing-bias-non-existent-myth


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 30, 2019)

And this completely unbiased source says the same. Must be true. 

https://alastaircampbell.org/2018/0...her-great-institution-being-harmed-by-brexit/


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## adam6177 (May 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Brexiteer Tory MP complains that the BBC does not slavishly repeat the views of leavers without question, that is printed by a paper with a strong leave bias. Hold the front page, it must be true.........

You claim that article is true, I'll claim this claim is true. Or alternatively we could both say the truth that it is desperate paranoid conspiratorial BS on both sides, but where's the fun in that.   The fact that the BBC upsets the more easily triggered on both sides means they are probably doing their job quite well.  



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/964759938118668289

Click to expand...

I made no claims, simply said "BBC info" and gave the link - up to the reader to decide if it's true or not.

But I fail to see how an organisation that has multi million pounds in grants from the EU along with over Â£140m in loans from the same people can be impartial.


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I made no claims, simply said "BBC info" and gave the link - up to the reader to decide if it's true or not.
*
But I fail to see how an organisation that has multi million pounds in grants from the EU along with over Â£140m in loans from the same people can be impartial*.
		
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people on this thread have benefited in some way from the areas they live in or the organisations they work for having received assistance/loans/money from the EU. But that does not seem to have impacted their views of the EU.


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## MegaSteve (May 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people on this thread have benefited in some way from the areas they live in or the organisations they work for having received assistance/loans/money from the EU. But that does not seem to have impacted their views of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, company I worked for took/accepted money from the EU and used it to move jobs out of the UK and on to the continent... Well chuffed about that NOT!


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2019)

Siri, show me a story that demonstrates the incompetence of those involved with Brexit and is a perfect example of us just pointlessly spunking away money on this that is so needed in other areas.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48117366


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## Hacker Khan (May 1, 2019)

Wonder if this will split the silly vote in Harpenden Southeast 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48118829


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## Liverpoolphil (May 2, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1123995859111284736
Tommy Robinsonâ€™s campaign is going well - twice in two days now 

Be aware it has naughty words being spoken


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people on this thread have benefited in some way from the areas they live in or the organisations they work for having received assistance/loans/money from the EU. But that does not seem to have impacted their views of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Where did the EU get this money the vast majority of us have benefited from. Did they work for it, did they print it or did we give it to them?


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## SocketRocket (May 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			And this completely unbiased source says the same. Must be true.

https://alastaircampbell.org/2018/0...her-great-institution-being-harmed-by-brexit/

Click to expand...

Owen Jones and Alister Campbell, unbiased personified.


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## adam6177 (May 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1123995859111284736
Tommy Robinsonâ€™s campaign is going well - twice in two days now

Be aware it has naughty words being spoken
		
Click to expand...

I hope that fella is arrested and charged with assault, outrageous.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I hope that fella is arrested and charged with assault, outrageous.
		
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Do you mean the one throwing the punches after his mates held him to stop him moving


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## Hacker Khan (May 2, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I hope that fella is arrested and charged with assault, outrageous.
		
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Assault with a strawberry milkshake? What's next, GBH with a feather duster, actual bodily harm with a dandelion? 

Snowflake...


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## adam6177 (May 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Assault with a strawberry milkshake? What's next, GBH with a feather duster, actual bodily harm with a dandelion?

Snowflake...
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it's assault.

Imagine the two were talking and it was Robinson who poured the milkshake over the Muslim fella.... The media would absolutely rip him apart, in fact it'd be labelled as a hate crime too.

Snowflake.... Not sure you know the meaning of the word.


----------



## Kellfire (May 3, 2019)

While of course itâ€™s technically assault on Tommy Robinson, itâ€™s also funny because heâ€™s a racist, dangerous scum bag. Iâ€™m torn...


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## robinthehood (May 3, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Assault with a strawberry milkshake? What's next, GBH with a feather duster, actual bodily harm with a dandelion?

Snowflake...
		
Click to expand...

You'll have the forum Tommy fan club on your case now.


----------



## Hobbit (May 3, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			While of course itâ€™s technically assault on Tommy Robinson, itâ€™s also funny because heâ€™s a racist, dangerous scum bag. Iâ€™m torn...
		
Click to expand...

Agree, but was the response proportionate? It could be argued that Robinson goaded him, incited?


----------



## Kellfire (May 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Agree, but was the response proportionate? It could be argued that Robinson goaded him, incited?
		
Click to expand...

Definitely and after the milkshake is thrown, Robinson then goes full on thug mode and tries to land uppercuts on the lad. 

No one comes out of it looking particularly good. But I did laugh.


----------



## Kellfire (May 3, 2019)

Or should I have said he threw a McFlurry of punches...


----------



## adam6177 (May 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Agree, but was the response proportionate? It could be argued that Robinson goaded him, incited?
		
Click to expand...

Was it proportionate, for the temperament that I have no - I've never punched anyone in my life.  But there are many many people who have short fuses and maybe lashing out physically is their thing.... Just think Prescott with the egg incident.

Did he goad him.... Probably, he is a inflammatory character without doubt, but should any debate ever turn physical. 

I totally understand people's perceptions of him and their dislike/hatred of him and what he has stood and does stand for , but sometimes I believe he is in the right.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 3, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Was it proportionate, for the temperament that I have no - I've never punched anyone in my life.  But there are many many people who have short fuses and maybe lashing out physically is their thing.... Just think Prescott with the egg incident.

Did he goad him.... Probably, he is a inflammatory character without doubt, but should any debate ever turn physical.

I totally understand people's perceptions of him and their dislike/hatred of him and what he has stood and does stand for , but sometimes I believe he is in the right.
		
Click to expand...

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

What exactly does he stand for? And were does he generate his income from?

Why was he even in Warrington? They didnâ€™t take part in the local elections yesterday?

Why doesnâ€™t he use his real name?

Not expecting you to know all or any of the answers, I just donâ€™t see anything positive about him.


----------



## patricks148 (May 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

What exactly does he stand for? And were does he generate his income from?

Why was he even in Warrington? They didnâ€™t take part in the local elections yesterday?

Why doesnâ€™t he use his real name?

Not expecting you to know all or any of the answers, I just donâ€™t see anything positive about him.
		
Click to expand...

Liked some of his late 70's stuff, 2,4,6,8 Motorway and Glad to be Gay, though not sure about some of the later stuff


----------



## adam6177 (May 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

What exactly does he stand for? And were does he generate his income from?

Why was he even in Warrington? They didnâ€™t take part in the local elections yesterday?

Why doesnâ€™t he use his real name?

Not expecting you to know all or any of the answers, I just donâ€™t see anything positive about him.
		
Click to expand...

I believe he was there generating publicity for the upcoming european elections for UKIP. 

I like the fact that he was brave enough to put his head about the parapit re the child exploitation scandals, when I think back to how the establishment/BBC etc covered up the likes of Saville, Rolf Harris etc etc and now we look back and wonder why no one tried to blow it wide open.....well he's tried doing it this time.  Admittedly he got some of the process wrong and was rightly punished.

I'm not going to say I agree with many of his views, but sometimes I think he hits the nail on the head....and I hate the way he's been setup and gagged by certain organisations.  A lot of what has happened seems hypocritical to me. 

But like I've said before, I can totally understand the hatred/disdain towards him and wouldn't argue against peoples views of him.


----------



## Mudball (May 3, 2019)

funny interview with Chelmsford's Conservative MP Vicky Ford who after losing the local elections says _Tory not help by the uncertainty of Brexit.. *AND THE IRONY IS *that the party that won does not want to deliver Brexit_

_https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48143634 _

I am not sure what the Irony is?   i think the message from Chelmsford is very clear rather than ironic.   Chelmsford vote 52:48 to leave with a 77% turnout..  does that mean votes are changing their minds / want to give a message / cant be bothered / dont care


----------



## Mudball (May 3, 2019)

For those who claim that BBC is pro Remain..  the responses to this tweet making funny reading as everyone sees the bbc as a pro-leave 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1124214879919984645


----------



## Hacker Khan (May 4, 2019)

This looks interesting, although I suspect it may send a few posters on here over the edge. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0004xn9


----------



## SocketRocket (May 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			This looks interesting, although I suspect it may send a few posters on here over the edge. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0004xn9

Click to expand...

Mad for it   ðŸ™„


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## Doon frae Troon (May 5, 2019)

Scottish Conservative Secretary of State David Mundell gives his wholehearted support for Scotland to remain in the EU.
https://www.davidmundell.com/news/david-mundell-case-scotland-european-union


----------



## Old Skier (May 6, 2019)

Turkey becoming truly democratic https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48177740


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## robinthehood (May 6, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Turkey becoming truly democratic https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48177740

Click to expand...

Not in the EU and never likely to be.


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## SocketRocket (May 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Not in the EU and never likely to be.
		
Click to expand...

We get it they are not in the EU ðŸ™„  And your evidence they are never likely to be is based on?


----------



## Hobbit (May 12, 2019)

A poll for the forthcoming European elections;

The poll, by Opinium Research, suggests the Brexit Party is way out in front on 34% (+6), Labour on 21% (-7), the pro-Remain Lib Dems 12% (+5), Conservatives 11% (-3), Greens 8% (+2), UKIP 4% (+1) and Change UK 3% (-4).

There's any number of (flawed?) conclusions that could be drawn from the poll. For example;

Why doesn't the Remain numbers, LibDems, Greens & Change UK add up to more than 50%?

If the main parties have Leave supporters amongst their rank and file, who wouldn't vote for any other party, just what is the % of Leave voters still out there?

For all the noise from the disaffected MP's that created Change UK, it looks like a whimper rather than a roaring change in UK politics.

Interesting to see the LibDems listed as pro-Remain when they were neck and neck with Labour for a % of their voters voting Leave.

Probably by coincidence but if you look at the % of Labour and LibDem supporters who voted Leave in 2016, and then 'pinch' a 1/3 of their supporters from the above. Add in the Brexit party and UKIP, you end up with a Leave support of 52%.

As many have said, no real change really...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2019)

Cameron [remember him] calls Brexit to get rid of Farage and his mucky collection of supporters.
He totally splits the UK in two, and heralds the break up of the failing Union.

Farage's Brexit party now more popular than the Tory party.

That all went well David,


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 12, 2019)

Farage has meltdown on the Marr programme.
His party has no manifesto on EU elections so what was Marr supposed to question him on.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1127510300851343361


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Farage has meltdown on the Marr programme.
His party has no manifesto on EU elections so what was Marr supposed to question him on.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1127510300851343361

Click to expand...

 If you call that a melt down you must have lived a very sheltered life ðŸ™„
Farage saw through the shallow attempt by Marr to use the time to trawl through any old scraps to discredit him rather than try to understand what he stands foÅ• in the Brexit party.    It was shallow and poor interviewing by the BBC in an attempt to promote their own interests.


----------



## Hobbit (May 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If you call that a melt down you must have lived a very sheltered life ðŸ™„
Farage saw through the shallow attempt by Marr to use the time to trawl through any old scraps to discredit him rather than try to understand what he stands foÅ• in the Brexit party.    It was shallow and poor interviewing by the BBC in an attempt to promote their own interests.
		
Click to expand...

I like Marr but thought it was one of his very worst interviews. It really does make you question the Beeb bias. And before anyone trawls up Ofcom's findings there's oodles of evidence to suggest otherwise, north and south of the border - its London/establishment-centric.


----------



## Hobbit (May 12, 2019)

Interesting interview with Dominic Hinds on Marr this morning. Picking up on his comment about it being a protest vote; is it or is it a genuine swing to something different? Is it a little arrogant to say we're still loved but people are voting for something else as a protest or is it a genuine we want something else?

Just asking...


----------



## Old Skier (May 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Interesting interview with Dominic Hinds on Marr this morning. Picking up on his comment about it being a protest vote; is it or is it a genuine swing to something different? Is it a little arrogant to say we're still loved but people are voting for something else as a protest or is it a genuine we want something else?

Just asking...
		
Click to expand...

Typical arrogant politicians, they don't realise anything is wrong until they get hoofed.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Typical arrogant politicians, they don't realise anything is wrong until they get hoofed.
		
Click to expand...

They dont even get it then.  They get sucked into the world of politicians where the longer they are exposed the more they get sucked into abstract idealism thÃ t takes away their empathy with normality.   The way most of them have never worked in jobs outside politics for a suitable time shows in their lack of understanding of what ordinary peoples lives are like and what their priorities are.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 13, 2019)

I see that they Brexit party's election agent has said that Tommy Robinson is misunderstood and is really quite a nice guy and that Islamaphobia is just made up.
Aye right.


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## Old Skier (May 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see that they Brexit party's election agent has said that Tommy Robinson is misunderstood and is really quite a nice guy and that Islamaphobia is just made up.
Aye right. 

Click to expand...

Got a link


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## Hobbit (May 13, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Got a link
		
Click to expand...

Google Brexit party agent. There's a few that come up


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## robinthehood (May 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see that they Brexit party's election agent has said that Tommy Robinson is misunderstood and is really quite a nice guy and that Islamaphobia is just made up.
Aye right. 

Click to expand...

A real nasty piece of work that man. nasty.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 14, 2019)

The new Change party have a bus with what appears to be a redacted message and an upside down Union flag on the side of it.
Do you think they are trying to send out a coded message


----------



## Crazyface (May 14, 2019)

I think what we need is a General Election. This, hopefully would fully test the mood of the country, and we can then get on and sort the mess out.


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## chrisd (May 14, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I think what we need is a General Election. This, hopefully would fully test the mood of the country, and we can then get on and sort the mess out.
		
Click to expand...

Do you seriously think a GE would sort the mess out. Given that a huge number of voters will, as in the local elections, vote anywhere but for the two main parties and its pretty certain that there would be a hung Parliament which would certainly not sort out Brexit. We, I reckon need an outright winner who could guarantee a leave deal and have no trouble pushing it through, but I don't see that happening at all anytime soon.


----------



## User62651 (May 14, 2019)

Got 5 political flyers at once today in the mail for upcoming European Elections, no LibDem one though and no Brexit Party one either (thought they were both on a roll!), would've thought getting in first is important!

Anyway shared below -

Message I'm taking at first view (which is important, first impressions etc) -
Scottish Conservatives headline again is all about SNP/independence, little about themselves on headlines at least - seems to be Ruth Davidon's only tactic in all elections, no matter the level.
SNPs one doesn't even mention independence, just pro Scotland in EU, clear message.
Scottish Greens - very pro EU as well, maybe a bit offensive to leavers?
UKIP - well clearly anti EU, uphold Brexit. Clear enough.
Scottish Labour - goodness knows, something about uniting the UK


----------



## Mudball (May 14, 2019)

i know this thread is all about serious issues surrounding brexit.  So as a diversion, i found this one from Yodel Hell - apparently a site to talk about all the challenges with Yodel

*Brexit averted as Article 50 letter lost by YODEL*

http://www.yodelhell.co.uk/brexit-averted-article-50-letter-lost-yodel-1065.html


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Got 5 political flyers at once today in the mail for upcoming European Elections, no LibDem one though and no Brexit Party one either (thought they were both on a roll!), would've thought getting in first is important!

Anyway shared below -

Message I'm taking at first view (which is important, first impressions etc) -
Scottish Conservatives headline again is all about SNP/independence, little about themselves on headlines at least - seems to be Ruth Davidon's only tactic in all elections, no matter the level.
SNPs one doesn't even mention independence, just pro Scotland in EU, clear message.
Scottish Greens - very pro EU as well, maybe a bit offensive to leavers?
UKIP - well clearly anti EU, uphold Brexit. Clear enough.
Scottish Labour - goodness knows, something about uniting the UK


View attachment 27279

Click to expand...

My Mrs got a UKIP flyer but I did not, I feel honoured.
I think there were 22 mentions of SNP and Independence on the Scots Tory leaflet first page for the EUROPEAN ELECTIONS. Truthless Davidson back with her one trick pony show.
Wings looking to hit Â£100,000 within 36 hours of the annual fundraiser. Target was Â£50,000,
Unpopular paid BritNat journalists of failing Scottish newspapers are going into meltdown.


----------



## MegaSteve (May 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My Mrs got a UKIP flyer but I did not, I feel honoured.
I think there were 22 mentions of SNP and Independence on the Scots Tory leaflet first page for the EUROPEAN ELECTIONS. Truthless Davidson back with her one trick pony show.
Wings looking to hit Â£100,000 within 36 hours of the annual fundraiser. Target was Â£50,000,
Unpopular paid BritNat journalists of failing Scottish newspapers are going into meltdown.
		
Click to expand...


Bigoted website receives an overload of donations and you think it's great...

Superb...


----------



## Dando (May 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Got 5 political flyers at once today in the mail for upcoming European Elections, no LibDem one though and no Brexit Party one either (thought they were both on a roll!), would've thought getting in first is important!

Anyway shared below -

Message I'm taking at first view (which is important, first impressions etc) -
Scottish Conservatives headline again is all about SNP/independence, little about themselves on headlines at least - seems to be Ruth Davidon's only tactic in all elections, no matter the level.
SNPs one doesn't even mention independence, just pro Scotland in EU, clear message.
Scottish Greens - very pro EU as well, maybe a bit offensive to leavers?
UKIP - well clearly anti EU, uphold Brexit. Clear enough.
Scottish Labour - goodness knows, something about uniting the UK


View attachment 27279

Click to expand...

I'm going to see what's written on the side of one the parties buses before I decide who to vote for, as apparently if I don't like it I can moan about it for years after and say that they promised to do this that or the other even though they didn't


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 14, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Bigoted website receives an overload of donations and you think it's great...

Superb...
		
Click to expand...

Calling Wings a bigoted website just might not be the smartest thing you have done today.
He has loads of money to fight defamation cases.


----------



## Old Skier (May 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Calling Wings a bigoted website just might not be the smartest thing you have done today.
He has loads of money to fight defamation cases.

Click to expand...

Strange how it's ok to use these words when quoteing  from the Tory Graph and the Daily Wail (by those that don't read them obviously) but to use them about a blog site that is closer to publishing racists comments far worse than anything idiot Farage spouts is just a tad bias.


----------



## robinthehood (May 14, 2019)

I wonder, when brexit is done and things are the same as they were, what will people blame their woes on then?


----------



## MegaSteve (May 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I wonder, when brexit is done and things are the same as they were, what will people blame their woes on then?
		
Click to expand...

Box ticking desk jockeys...


----------



## spongebob59 (May 14, 2019)

Meanwhile over at Change UK 

https://order-order.com/2019/05/14/chuks-infighting-kicks-off-blame-game/


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## Old Skier (May 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I wonder, when brexit is done and things are the same as they were, what will people blame their woes on then?
		
Click to expand...

Slow play, size of ball markers.


----------



## adam6177 (May 16, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48027580 

I couldn't help but smile at this BBC article - party by party guide for the European elections.  They've chosen to list them in "alphabetical" order, which by including "the" in the party name (or not) when it suits them the pro-brexit groups are conveniently listed last.

Go on, tell me I'm creating bias where there is none.


----------



## Mudball (May 16, 2019)

adam6177 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48027580

I couldn't help but smile at this BBC article - party by party guide for the European elections.  They've chosen to list them in "alphabetical" order, which by including "the" in the party name (or not) when it suits them the pro-brexit groups are conveniently listed last.

Go on, tell me I'm creating bias where there is none. 

Click to expand...

It is called â€˜The Brexit Partyâ€™ ... check their website
https://thebrexitparty.org/

Canâ€™t blame you for finding a bias to suit your agenda ... we all do it all the time .. unfortunately some ejjiet will end up fact checking it (sorry)


----------



## adam6177 (May 16, 2019)

Mudball said:



			It is called â€˜The Brexit Partyâ€™ ... check their website
https://thebrexitparty.org/

Canâ€™t blame you for finding a bias to suit your agenda ... we all do it all the time .. unfortunately some ejjiet will end up fact checking it (sorry)
		
Click to expand...

The Conservative party, The Labour party...for example. Both called as such on their websites.

They all have The as part of their name, but the beeb chose to list them in a particular way to fit their agenda.  #fact


----------



## robinthehood (May 16, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			The Conservative party, The Labour party...for example. Both called as such on their websites.

They all have The as part of their name, but the beeb chose to list them in a particular way to fit their agenda.  #fact
		
Click to expand...

Total guff. Maybe they were saving the best till last !


----------



## jp5 (May 16, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			They all have The as part of their name, but the beeb chose to list them in a particular way to fit their agenda.  #fact
		
Click to expand...

http://search.electoralcommission.org.uk/Search/Registrations

(The BBC really are just listing their registered names!)


----------



## jp5 (May 16, 2019)

What policies do The Brexit Party have anyway? I heard Farage wants to move to an insurance based healthcare system, is that a party policy does anyone know?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 17, 2019)

jp5 said:



			What policies do The Brexit Party have anyway? I heard Farage wants to move to an insurance based healthcare system, is that a party policy does anyone know?
		
Click to expand...

Do we not have that already...â€¦or did I not pay national insurance every week for 42 years


----------



## jp5 (May 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do we not have that already...â€¦or did I not pay national insurance every week for 42 years
		
Click to expand...

Well NI is just a tax. Thankfully not insuring you personally which seems a hideous prospect.


----------



## Mudball (May 17, 2019)

Not for the faint Brexit hearted.. why pick on Farage when the rest of the crew is making stuff up?  Also why this focus on the need to develop Wales ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1128952415833796609


----------



## Kellfire (May 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			why pick on Farage when the rest of the crew is making stuff up?
		
Click to expand...

He's the leader of the party. He's clearly the focus.



Mudball said:



			Also why this focus on the need to develop Wales ?
		
Click to expand...

Can you _really _not understand why a Welsh political correspondent would ask questions pertaining to Wales?


----------



## robinthehood (May 17, 2019)

What next? Lab-con talks come to nothing.
Will it be the chosen one, bojo, to bring the no deal craved by so many?
Not a chance,  once he has the actual responsibility he'll soon start rewinding .


----------



## SocketRocket (May 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Not for the faint Brexit hearted.. why pick on Farage when the rest of the crew is making stuff up?  Also why this focus on the need to develop Wales ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1128952415833796609

Click to expand...

Another who mistakenly believes EU grants come from a magic box in Brussels.    The UK is a net beneficiary to the EU, we only get some of our money back.


----------



## robinthehood (May 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another who mistakenly believes EU grants come from a magic box in Brussels.    The UK is a net beneficiary to the EU, we only get some of our money back.
		
Click to expand...

Another one who mistakenly believes the Tories would ever stump up for the EU funded projects.


----------



## Blue in Munich (May 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



*Total guff.* Maybe they were saving the best till last !
		
Click to expand...

Quite your forte on this thread.


----------



## robinthehood (May 17, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Quite your forte on this thread.
		
Click to expand...

oh come now,try harder,  even just a little . If you like I can teach you some big words.


----------



## Slime (May 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			oh come now,try harder,  even just a little . If you like I can teach you some big words.
		
Click to expand...

I actually find many of your posts, including the one above, are good examples of floccinaucinihilipilification.
Any good?


----------



## Foxholer (May 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another who mistakenly believes EU grants come from a magic box in Brussels....
		
Click to expand...

I'm pretty certain that,as a 'political commentator', he's well aware of where funding for EU grants comes from!



SocketRocket said:



			...    The UK is a net beneficiary to the EU...
		
Click to expand...

Eh? What?


----------



## robinthehood (May 17, 2019)

Slime said:



			I actually find many of your posts, including the one above, are good examples of floccinaucinihilipilification.
Any good? 

Click to expand...

No,not really.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Another one who mistakenly believes the Tories would ever stump up for the EU funded projects.
		
Click to expand...

That's exactly what they do. Where do you think the EU gets its money from?


----------



## Slime (May 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No,not really.
		
Click to expand...

..................... and your sense of humour is where, exactly?


----------



## robinthehood (May 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's exactly what they do. Where do you think the EU gets its money from?
		
Click to expand...

I know and I'm happy with it.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I know and I'm happy with it.
		
Click to expand...

Lost me now mate.


----------



## robinthehood (May 17, 2019)

ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸


----------



## Mudball (May 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another who mistakenly believes EU grants come from a magic box in Brussels.    The UK is a net beneficiary to the EU, we only get some of our money back.
		
Click to expand...

Agree.. why send it to Brussels who then dish it back to smaller communities in Wales and North.  Instead we should focus on building vanity London centric things like the HD2 or the 3rd runway.. anything outside the M25 is not worth it..


----------



## Pathetic Shark (May 18, 2019)

I have no time for Nigel Farage and I really do not care about any policies the Brexit Party may or may not have.  I will vote for them as will millions of others as it is simply a protest vote.   The European elections mean absolutely nothing so it is a chance to register disgust at the democratic decision of the country to leave the EU not being carried out.


----------



## Hobbit (May 18, 2019)

There's a very good report in The Commons Library Briefing Papers on EU funding allocation if anyone wants to argue facts instead of rhetoric, e.g. "oh the Tories would never fund north of Watford Gap." And Labour did what for the north during the last long stint in power(and whilst in the EU)?

Also, an interesting read, and education, in recent weeks has been how big businesses in the EU offset the carbon emission payments, and where and how they get their carbon emission credits. Some of you will have seen a piece in the news this week about Tata Steel needing a Â£70m loan/bailout from the UK govt to pay for carbon emissions. The story itself has been kicking around for a few months now, before hitting prime time news on the BBC.

Short version; the period the payment is due for is 2018. Normally, the carbon credits issued by the EU would cover ALL of that bill. The EU has decided not to issue carbon credits to ANY UK businesses because the UK is leaving the EU. They talk about treating the UK with respect, and of not harming UK citizens because of Brexit, especially as nearly half voted for the EU...

Unless something has happened that we've missed, the UK was a full member of the EU in 2018, and is still a full member of the EU. Fair? Just? Bullying? Milking the cash cow whilst they still can?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2019)

The current Brexit situation expertly explained in a simple cartoon.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-british-job/#comments


----------



## robinthehood (May 18, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I have no time for Nigel Farage and I really do not care about any policies the Brexit Party may or may not have.  I will vote for them as will millions of others as it is simply a protest vote.   The European elections mean absolutely nothing so it is a chance to register disgust at the democratic decision of the country to leave the EU not being carried out.
		
Click to expand...

It hasn't happened because it's a bad idea. Pretty straight forward


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2019)

Where's the money Nigel...â€¦â€¦...this will not end well for him.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1129519677590462464


----------



## SocketRocket (May 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It hasn't happened because it's a bad idea. Pretty straight forward
		
Click to expand...

No its not!
democracy is always the right way, it may be unpopular with some but enacting the will of the majority in a vote is always the right way and the very foundation on which our country has been established.  You may not like this system when your view loses but ignore it and we have nothing but chaos


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## robinthehood (May 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No its not!
democracy is always the right way, it may be unpopular with some but enacting the will of the majority in a vote is always the right way and the very foundation on which our country has been established.  You may not like this system when your view loses but ignore it and we have nothing but chaos
		
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Boris will be I charge soon, ardent leave supporter.  You think he'll make a difference?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Boris will be I charge soon, ardent leave supporter.  You think he'll make a difference?
		
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Hells teeth, we have had the world laughing at our Brexit exploits.
One would think they will be utterly helpless if we actually voted for that idiot to be our PM.
The Benny Hill Show has morphed into the new Westminster.


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## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hells teeth, we have had the world laughing at our Brexit exploits.
One would think they will be utterly helpless* if we actually voted for that idiot* to be our PM.
The Benny Hill Show has morphed into the new Westminster.
		
Click to expand...

It's likely that we won't even be given that option. If he wins the Tory leadership contest then he'll become PM without any of us voting for him.

P.S. I think it's a bit unfair to call him an idiot. I'm sure he's a very intelligent man. A buffoon and a clown maybe, but still an intelligent buffoon and clown.


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## User62651 (May 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Boris will be I charge soon, ardent leave supporter.  You think he'll make a difference?
		
Click to expand...

Boris is neither leave or remain, he's for himself. Utter mercenary. Not fit to be PM.  

Any of Jeremy Hunt or Rory Stewart or David Lidington please. Rest are toxic.


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## Dando (May 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It hasn't happened because it's a bad idea. Pretty straight forward[
		
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maxfli65 said:



			Boris is neither leave or remain, he's for himself. Utter mercenary. Not fit to be PM. 

Any of Jeremy Hunt or Rory Stewart or David Lidington please. Rest are toxic.
		
Click to expand...

 arenâ€™t all mpâ€™s for themselves?


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## Dando (May 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hells teeth, we have had the world laughing at our Brexit exploits.
One would think they will be utterly helpless if we actually voted for that idiot to be our PM.
The Benny Hill Show has morphed into the new Westminster.
		
Click to expand...

Could be worse, old man steptoe and abacus could be in charge!


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## User62651 (May 18, 2019)

Dando said:



			arenâ€™t all mpâ€™s for themselves?
		
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No, populism from aggressive dim witted types against any politician (unless they're Trump or Farage) is very silly, many MPs are doing a decent job in their constituencies, all forgotten about with this tedious Brexit situation. However if you dont like your MP and think they're just in it for themselves vote him/her out for a better one next election.


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## Dando (May 18, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No, populism from aggressive dim witted types against any politician (unless they're Trump or Farage) is very silly, many MPs are doing a decent job in their constituencies, all forgotten about with this tedious Brexit situation. However if you dont like your MP and think they're just in it for themselves vote him/her out for a better one next election.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately my area is massively liebour so you could put a red rosette on a pile of dog poo and itâ€™ll still win!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 18, 2019)

Dando said:



			Could be worse, old man steptoe and abacus could be in charge!
		
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That is like the surgeon asking if you want him to remove your left testicle or your right eye.


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## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is like the surgeon asking if you want him to remove your left testicle or your right eye. 

Click to expand...

Got to be the left testicle. In fact, I'd rather have both of them removed than live in a country where Corbyn and Abbott were in charge.


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## Blue in Munich (May 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No, populism from aggressive dim witted types against any politician (unless they're Trump or Farage) is very silly, many MPs are doing a decent job in their constituencies, all forgotten about with this tedious Brexit situation. However if you dont like your MP and think they're just in it for themselves vote him/her out for a better one next election.

Click to expand...

If they are all doing such a good job for their constituencies, why are they not enacting what the majority of constituents who voted in the Referendum wanted?  Not just not enacting it but doing all they can to frustrate it.  Unless they are in it for themselves...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			If they are all doing such a good job for their constituencies, why are they not enacting what the majority of constituents who voted in the Referendum wanted?  Not just not enacting it but doing all they can to frustrate it.  Unless they are in it for themselves... 

Click to expand...

Because they realise that Brexit is all about the bad half of the Tory Party desperately trying to gain control of the UK.


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## SocketRocket (May 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Boris will be I charge soon, ardent leave supporter.  You think he'll make a difference?
		
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No, I don't think anyone will make a difference.
What a deflected and lazy reply to my point. If that's all you have then get back to reading your Beano.


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## SocketRocket (May 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Because they realise that Brexit is all about the bad half of the Tory Party desperately trying to gain control of the UK.
		
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No its not, parliament is currently about the rotten part of MPs frustrating democracy.


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No its not, parliament is currently about the rotten part of MPs frustrating democracy.
		
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While I'm almost 100% against the situation in Parliament ithat has allowed *the result of the referendum* to be frustrated/delayed  - and at significant expense - it is not 'democracy' that is being frustrated. *It is actually (UK's version of) democracy that is being used* to do the 'frustrating'!

I do note, however, that Doon is posting his all too frequent drivel (imo). But, again, that's democracy in action too!


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It hasn't happened because it's a bad idea. Pretty straight forward
		
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I'd normally simply 'Like' this post, but believe that would give a wrong impression!

I do like the comment, but not, necessarily, the specific sentiment!


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## robinthehood (May 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No, I don't think anyone will make a difference.
What a deflected and lazy reply to my point. If that's all you have then get back to reading your Beano.
		
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My goodness you're  a prick


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## robinthehood (May 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:




I'd normally simply 'Like' this post, but believe that would give a wrong impression!

I do like the comment, but not, necessarily, the specific sentiment!
		
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It's true though, othewise we'd be long gone


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## Dando (May 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's true though, othewise we'd be long gone
		
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 If weâ€™d told the EU to shove it when they demanded billions from us before they would talk about a future trading agreement then weâ€™d have left but the tossers in charge havenâ€™t gone got the balls to do it!


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's true though, othewise we'd be long gone
		
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It may or may not be. Your 'logic' for determining that it is is flawed!



Dando said:



			If weâ€™d told the EU to shove it when they demanded billions from us before they would talk about a future trading agreement then weâ€™d have left but the tossers in charge havenâ€™t gone got the balls to do it!
		
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Have you considered applying for a position in the Diplomatic Corps?


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2019)

Dando said:



			arenâ€™t all mpâ€™s for themselves?
		
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No!

Mine is a self made multi-millionaire who could almost certainly 'do more for himself' outside politics. So self-interest isn't what drives him!


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## Dando (May 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It may or may not be. Your 'logic' for determining that it is is flawed!



Have you considered applying for a position in the Diplomatic Corps?
		
Click to expand...

No


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## User62651 (May 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			If they are all doing such a good job for their constituencies, why are they not enacting what the majority of constituents who voted in the Referendum wanted?  Not just not enacting it but doing all they can to frustrate it.  Unless they are in it for themselves... 

Click to expand...

MPs represent their own constituents views not everyone else's, that probably why they got elected!
Wrt Brexit it's Freedom of choice, important in a democracy.
In a hung parliament you are going to get stand offs and draws. To get something as divisive as a No Deal Brexit through, a Government needs a decent majority, they dont have it because in 2017 the people didn't give May's govt it. Her choice to try and strengthen her Brexit position as even with the inherited majority of ca. 30 she had in 2016 she probably figured she couldn't get it through with only that. Rest they say is history.
However the default position remains to leave with No Deal on Halloween so maybe you just need to be patient and you'll get what you think the UK needs. Boris will likely be in charge then too.


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## Fade and Die (May 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's true though, othewise we'd be long gone
		
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If the result had been 52-48 to remain and parliament tried to make us leave how would you feel?

Be honest.


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## SocketRocket (May 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			My goodness you're  a prick
		
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Looks like I need to admit I was wrong.  The Beano is way too intelectual  for you ðŸ¤¯


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Looks like I need to admit I was wrong.  The Beano is way too *intelectual*  for you ðŸ¤¯
		
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Oh the irony!


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## robinthehood (May 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			If the result had been 52-48 to remain and parliament tried to make us leave how would you feel?

Be honest.
		
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They're not trying to make us stay . 3 times voted down due to politicians looking after thier own self interest. As for your  question I'd be unhappy but it's just meaningless what iffery


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## robinthehood (May 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:





Click to expand...

You couldn't make it up.


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## robinthehood (May 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Looks like I need to admit I was wrong.  The Beano is way too intelectual  for you ðŸ¤¯
		
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I'm not one for caring about spelling. But if you're going to try and be clever about someone's intellectual capability, then probably best to be sure of your own first.


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## Fade and Die (May 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			They're not trying to make us stay . 3 times voted down due to politicians looking after thier own self interest. As for your  question I'd be unhappy but it's just meaningless what iffery
		
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Most people that voted for Brexit would not recognise Mays deal as actually delivering on the referendum. I assume you are familiar with the term BRINO? So your counter argument is wrong.

And itâ€™s not whatiffery, itâ€™s just unpalatable for you to accept what you are supporting. â€œBollocks to Brexitâ€....Bollocks to democracy is more like it.


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			They're not trying to make us stay . 3 times voted down due to politicians looking after thier own self interest. As for your  question I'd be unhappy but it's just meaningless what iffery
		
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What actually makes you think it's 'self interest'?

A poll/survey of MPs indicated 480 Remain vs 159 Leave http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/how-mps-voted-in-the-eu-referendum-11364110245462 

Obviously Whip and commitments to implement the referendum result would reduce that gap in any actualrelevant vote, but that stat reflects MPs 'nomal' opinion!


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## User62651 (May 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			If the result had been 52-48 to remain and parliament tried to make us leave how would you feel?

Be honest.
		
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Wouldn't have happended because parliament is more for remain than leave across all parties even if the public (that bothered to vote) weren't. Not sure that's relevant anyway as maintaining the status quo is so much more simple than instigating massive change based on unachievable promises. Reality has kicked in since the heady days of early 2016.

Bit of a tangent but relevant I think - The Govt and PM have tried their hardest to honour the referendum and narrow leave result, horribly maybe but still trying with another vote next month. It's the Govt's own ERG MPs who have largely scuppered that because they want a different type of harder leave. Course Govt will try and blame Labour, that's what they do. Another factor was May calling a needless GE before Brexit had barely got underway. She's been in denial and self-preservation mode since that awful outcome for her.
May's deal is a realistic result of a negotiation with a stronger EU yet many of her own MPs won't back it, maybe rightly so.

Be interesting to see when Boris or whomever takes PM job in a few weeks just how much better they get on with Brexit with ERG and Farage carping away constantly in the background yet parliamentary arithmetic will be the same if not worse for Govt as several MPs said they won't serve under Boris J, he is that marmite. In that scenario whether they resign and there are by-elections or they move to Independent status or another party remains to be seen. Boris will have to call a GE and try to get a decent majority, big gamble after 9 years of fairly hopeless Tory and Tory coalition Govt, even with Corbyn holding Labour back.


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## robinthehood (May 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			What actually makes you think it's 'self interest'?

A poll/survey of MPs indicated 480 Remain vs 159 Leave http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/how-mps-voted-in-the-eu-referendum-11364110245462

Obviously Whip and commitments to implement the referendum result would reduce that gap in any actualrelevant vote, but that stat reflects MPs 'nomal' opinion!
		
Click to expand...

Look up brexit self interest in Google image search. It's pretty self explanatory.


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## Foxholer (May 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Look up self interest in Google image search. It's pretty self explanatory.
		
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I suggest you do the same! And compare it to 'belief' or 'opinion'!


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## robinthehood (May 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I suggest you do the same! And compare it to 'belief' or 'opinion'!
		
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You were to quick


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

I would be interested to hear the positives for leaving with no deal from anyone who supports that move.
I just cannot understand why anyone would want to bring self harm to our country.
Seems to me like sheer bloody mindness/toys oot the pram.


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## jp5 (May 20, 2019)

It's the general public frustrating the will of the people. If they'd given May a decent majority in 2017 we'd have been out by now.


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## Jamesbrown (May 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would be interested to hear the positives for leaving with no deal from anyone who supports that move.
I just cannot understand why anyone would want to bring self harm to our country.
Seems to me like sheer bloody mindness/toys oot the pram.
		
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Erm ending payments to the EU to get a fraction back?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Erm ending payments to the EU to get a fraction back?
		
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That old chestnut has been done to death........look around the poorer parts of the UK to see how much the UK has have benefited from EU investment.
Stopping payments to the EU will represent a tiny fraction of the damage Brexit isolation will cause to the UK economy.
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/what-eu-has-done-for-us-map/


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## IanM (May 20, 2019)

Been off here for a while, but amused to see its still rumbling on... Doon still thinks that the EU giving us back a proportion of OUR OWN MONEY is EU Investment!  

This week, a tax cut on business rates has been blocked by EU Rules and Marr show has all 5 panelists on his show, "Remain" Supporters.... BBC impartial eh? May still peddling her "deal that all sides hate"...  

Oh well.. back to work!


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## adam6177 (May 20, 2019)

IanM said:



			Been off here for a while, but amused to see its still rumbling on... Doon still thinks that the EU giving us back a proportion of OUR OWN MONEY is EU Investment!  

This week, a tax cut on business rates has been blocked by EU Rules and Marr show has all 5 panelists on his show, "Remain" Supporters.... BBC impartial eh? May still peddling her "deal that all sides hate"... 

Oh well.. back to work! 

Click to expand...

yep, nothing changes....same old arguments.

I'm looking forward to Thursday and the impending results.  Cant wait to see how the BBC spin them.


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## Crazyface (May 20, 2019)

I can't beleive this is still being argued about. It's simple we voted out, it matter not the size of the vote. We should have left with immediate effect on the leave date and a brand new trade deal struck with the EU which had been negotiated with no payments made to the EU (that were due) until such a deal had been made. And this deal would be a trade deal ONLY. no further payments to the EU bonkers ideas.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 20, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I can't beleive this is still being argued about. It's simple we voted out, it matter not the size of the vote. We should have left with immediate effect on the leave date and a brand new trade deal struck with the EU which had been negotiated with no payments made to the EU (that were due) until such a deal had been made. And this deal would be a trade deal ONLY. no further payments to the EU bonkers ideas.
		
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Probably because we were promised a deal before we left, not Leave then deal.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I can't beleive this is still being argued about. It's simple we voted out, it matter not the size of the vote. We should have left with immediate effect on the leave date and a brand new trade deal struck with the EU which had been negotiated with no payments made to the EU (that were due) until such a deal had been made. And this deal would be a trade deal ONLY. no further payments to the EU bonkers ideas.
		
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So you are 'still arguing about' as well!

Oh! And there's the minor difficulty of actually legitimising that decision! From memory, that option, amended to cover 'No Deal Anytime' was rejected by Parliament, though it is 'indicative only' as No Deal is still the default position under Article 50.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

IanM said:



			Been off here for a while, but amused to see its still rumbling on... Doon still thinks that the EU giving us back a proportion of OUR OWN MONEY is EU Investment!  

Oh well.. back to work! 

Click to expand...

It is certainly a much fairer investment for the areas of the UK that have historically been 'underinvested ' by Westminster [ ie anywhere outwith London and the SE of England]


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is certainly a much fairer investment for the areas of the UK that have historically been 'underinvested ' by Westminster [ ie anywhere outwith London and the SE of England]
		
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Doon!
1. Where do you think the EU gets the money for these 'investments'?
2. Do you realise that the EU generally requires Local (Netional) Government to both approve the 'project' and to make an equal investment?


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably because we were promised a deal before we left, not Leave then deal.
		
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We were never promised a deal, although many predicted that the EU would want a deal. Why do you say we were promised a deal? Expectations were set but it was always naive to expect them to be met.

It was interesting to see the behind the scenes documentary of the EU negotiating team. They desperately don't want No Deal but obviously have planned for a worst case scenario.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

Hey this is good fun.

https://euandi2019.eu/survey/UK/def...ED5FFA31BB2CDF97ECC01AF943B24F74249ED1D91BB15

Spot on for me  not much between SNP, Plaid, Scots Greens, Sinn Fein and Lib Dems...........seems right. 

Bottom three were DUP, Brexit Party and UKIP.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Doon!
1. Where do you think the EU gets the money for these 'investments'?
2. Do you realise that the EU generally requires Local (Netional) Government to both approve the 'project' and to make an equal investment?
		
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I shall hazard a guess. 
1] The EU
2]Yes.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I shall hazard a guess. 
1] The EU
2]Yes.
		
Click to expand...

Wrong! Guess again!

Actually, don't bother!

You've been told several times already but it doesn't seem to have sunk in. 
The EU gets the money for those 'investments' from net contributors, of which (2015 figures) UK is the 3rd largest! It's actually the 6th largest recipient of EU funding (4th largest gross contributor), so 'not getting its fair share'! Surely even with YOUR anti-English bias, you  should be able to see that much more investment/funding of those areas and more could be made using those funds internally. Traditional Scottish 'frugality' would surely demand that happen too!


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## jp5 (May 20, 2019)

Can see there being even less funds for regional investment after Brexit sadly, not more.


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## adam6177 (May 20, 2019)

I see that Farage is the latest MP to be attacked with milkshake.  Is this really the state of modern politics, where people have been so radicalised that an MEP isn't safe to campaign without fear of being attacked.

It's pathetic that ANY MP is attacked by the public.


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## USER1999 (May 20, 2019)

And a waste of milkshake, even if it is revolting.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Wrong! Guess again!

Actually, don't bother!

You've been told several times already but it doesn't seem to have sunk in.
The EU gets the money for those 'investments' from net contributors, of which (2015 figures) UK is the 3rd largest! It's actually the 6th largest recipient of EU funding (4th largest gross contributor), so 'not getting its fair share'! Surely even with YOUR anti-English bias, you  should be able to see that much more investment/funding of those areas and more could be made using those funds internally. Traditional Scottish 'frugality' would surely demand that happen too!
		
Click to expand...

That  is why you are totally wrong.
The EU's money is the EU's money, wherever it comes from.

I did have a wee laugh at your comment about sharing and pooling within the UK.
Remember the Vow by Cameron, Milliband and Cleggy.........Aye that worked well eh.


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## IanM (May 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is certainly a much fairer investment for the areas of the UK that have historically been 'underinvested ' by Westminster [ ie anywhere outwith London and the SE of England]
		
Click to expand...

Also not true, in fact miles out!   ... get googling the old RDA Reports...of course, these had to be shut so the cash could be "branded EU!"  It's all in Hansard 

And you better not check the stats on where the tax revenue comes from either!

AND - if you say it doesnt matter where the money comes from, it's the EUs.  That demonstrates plenty.  

...Top Trolling though, as ever... love the use of "outwith" too!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			We were never promised a deal, although many predicted that the EU would want a deal. Why do you say we were promised a deal? Expectations were set but it was always naive to expect them to be met.

It was interesting to see the behind the scenes documentary of the EU negotiating team. They desperately don't want No Deal but obviously have planned for a worst case scenario.
		
Click to expand...

I would disagree Bri, there was very little or no mention at all from the Leave campaign of leaving with no deal, their Leafletâ€™s certainly did mention leaving with a deal.

I was sort of on the fence when we voted and saying we would Leave with a deal swayed me, I really wasnâ€™t in favour of leaving with no deal and tbh, may of took the easier option (imo) of voting to remain had the No Deal ticket been the only other option.


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## IanM (May 20, 2019)

Any Remainers like Doon here want me to pay your mortgages and buy your food/kids Xmas Presents etc.....??





Send me your salary.... I'll send you 75% of it back.... and HEY PRESTO I am paying for all your stuff!  Smashing deal eh?  I'll even tell you where you can spend it!


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## PieMan (May 20, 2019)

IanM said:



			Any Remainers like Doon here want me to pay your mortgages and buy your food/kids Xmas Presents etc.....??





Send me your salary.... I'll send you 75% of it back.... and HEY PRESTO I am paying for all your stuff!  Smashing deal eh?  I'll even tell you where you can spend it! 

Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

You forgot to add "oh, and you will also need to find some co-financing too, either your own money or other private funds"!!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I would disagree Bri, there was very little or no mention at all from the Leave campaign of leaving with no deal, their Leafletâ€™s certainly did mention leaving with a deal.

I was sort of on the fence when we voted and saying we would Leave with a deal swayed me, I really wasnâ€™t in favour of leaving with no deal and tbh, may of took the easier option (imo) of voting to remain had the No Deal ticket been the only other option.
		
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How could the Leave camp promise something it wasn't their's to promise? Who is being naive? But to be fair, there is a deal on the table. Therefore why are you complaining about the deal?

Equally, Remain said there would be no single market or customs union. To be honest, I expected it would be Leave then negotiate.

Round and round in circles. It isn't going to happen anyway.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That  is why you are totally wrong.
The EU's money is the EU's money, wherever it comes from.
...
		
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I've never suggested it wasn't EU's money; just queried/explained how it gets it!
Though it won't be getting it from the UK for much longer! 



Doon frae Troon said:



			I did have a wee laugh at your comment about sharing and pooling within the UK.
....
		
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Eh? What? I made no such comment! You are imagining (dreaming?) or just plain inventing!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

Lots of insults flying around but I notice no one has replied to my ' tell me the benefits of a no deal Brexit' question.
Well, apart from the message on a bus one. if that counts.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I've never suggested it wasn't EU's money; just queried/explained how it gets it!
Though it won't be getting it from the UK for much longer!


Eh? What? I made no such comment! You are imagining (dreaming?) or just plain inventing!
		
Click to expand...

Read your second last sentence about 'internal investment' [UK]


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

IanM said:



			Any Remainers like Doon here want me to pay your mortgages and buy your food/kids Xmas Presents etc.....??





Send me your salary.... I'll send you 75% of it back.... and HEY PRESTO I am paying for all your stuff!  Smashing deal eh?  I'll even tell you where you can spend it! 

Click to expand...

Not sure if you are talking about the UK in the EU or Scotland in the UK there


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## Dando (May 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lots of insults flying around but I notice no one has replied to my ' tell me the benefits of a no deal Brexit' question.
Well, apart from the message on a bus one. if that counts.
		
Click to expand...

so there has been a reply!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			How could the Leave camp promise something it wasn't their's to promise? Who is being naive? But to be fair, there is a deal on the table. Therefore why are you complaining about the deal?

Equally, Remain said there would be no single market or customs union. To be honest, I expected it would be Leave then negotiate.

Round and round in circles. It isn't going to happen anyway.
		
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Because in the run up to this unique election I was undecided, I was of the opinion of there being â€œgood and badâ€ on both sides, my biggest fear (rightly or wrongly) was a No Deal scenario and it taking days, weeks, months, years to sort out.
Therefore I was content that the Leave literature and those campaigning for Leave stated we would negotiate a deal prior to starting any legal process to leave.

I obviously understand it may well of been empty promises, but isnâ€™t that the risk we take in the run up to any election.

As for â€œcomplainingâ€ about the deal, I would rather we stood up to the EU and insist on renegotiation until we have a deal the majority of Parliament will accept.

I certainly donâ€™t want a No Deal.

How can we stand up to them?

First off we could of refused to hold these elections on Thursday and saved the money.

Then I would withold some of funds we pay.

And I would maintain this stance until they came back to the table.


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## Slime (May 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lots of insults flying around* but I notice no one has replied to my ' tell me the benefits of a no deal Brexit' question.*
Well, apart from the message on a bus one. if that counts.
		
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Possibly because you are the most myopic person on this thread.
People can post literally anything, but if it doesn't fit your agenda, you just ignore it, ridicule it or tell them they're wrong.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

Dando said:



			so there has been a reply!
		
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No, I would love to think that the folk on here were much tooo sensible to advocate a no deal Brexit.
The problem I have is that I saw a poll somewhere that said 40%+ of leave voters would be happy with a no deal Brexit.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Read your second last sentence about 'internal investment' [UK]
		
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You are being myopic, yet again! Did you notice the word '*could*'? It doesn't mean the same thing as '*would*'! Though the fact that UK Gov already commits to invest the same as EU should indicate it's likely to approve many of the projects - and, without the requirement to fund the EU, will have significantly more funds to enable it to do so!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

Slime said:



			Possibly because you are the most myopic person on this thread.
People can post literally anything, but if it doesn't fit your agenda, you just ignore it, ridicule it or tell them they're wrong.
		
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I have a couple of very rude posters on the naughty step, so It may appear that I am ignoring some posts.
I would imagine that they are still posting their usual nasty stuff.


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because in the run up to this unique election I was undecided, I was of the opinion of there being â€œgood and badâ€ on both sides, my biggest fear (rightly or wrongly) was a No Deal scenario and it taking days, weeks, months, years to sort out.
Therefore I was content that the Leave literature and those campaigning for Leave stated we would negotiate a deal prior to starting any legal process to leave.

I obviously understand it may well of been empty promises, but isnâ€™t that the risk we take in the run up to any election.

As for â€œcomplainingâ€ about the deal, I would rather we stood up to the EU and insist on renegotiation until we have a deal the majority of Parliament will accept.

I certainly donâ€™t want a No Deal.

How can we stand up to them?

First off we could of refused to hold these elections on Thursday and saved the money.

Then I would withold some of funds we pay.

And I would maintain this stance until they came back to the table.
		
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Is there such a thing as No Deal? Is there another totally unconnected Deal that gets continually ignored, or worse still denigrated? What about WTO terms, specifically the WTO rules on allowing preferential terms to one country but not the other?

The UK has been a member of WTO since 1995. The UK further enhanced its membership of WTO in Feb this year, and also has most favoured nation(MFN) status under WTO rules. As such the UK could trade with the EU under MFN status. Its already a deal of sorts, and not that bad in terms of trade rules.

EU lawyers have said that the UK can't trade as a MFN for 7 years. Why? Because its too good a deal for the UK? But it doesn't say anything about a 7 year qualifying time limit in the WTO rules. The EU is trying to do to the UK exactly what it has done with a number of African countries - and WTO has taken the EU to court on numerous occasions for this and won every single time. People say the UK is only a small country in a fight with the EU, but either forget or don't know that WTO will do a lot of the fighting for the UK.

I do like your idea of drip feeding money to the EU based on access.


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## adam6177 (May 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lots of insults flying around but I notice no one has replied to my ' tell me the benefits of a no deal Brexit' question.
Well, apart from the message on a bus one. if that counts.
		
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I believe the "benefits" are a matter of opinion and a question that no one can answer with any certainty.

In my opinion a no deal option is best because I believe we could be in a better position to negotiate (from scratch) our own deals.  I presume the contrary opinion would be that the deal we have now is the best possible deal so why leave.

The problem I have with that is that is seems very short sighted, despite being in the EU for 40 years and not having given a go being "out".

Again, it's a game of opinions and no one can say for certain which way is right ..... But I'm willing to take that leap, others are not.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I believe the "benefits" are a matter of opinion and a question that no one can answer with any certainty.

In my opinion a no deal option is best because I believe we could be in a better position to negotiate (from scratch) our own deals.  I presume the contrary opinion would be that the deal we have now is the best possible deal so why leave.

The problem I have with that is that is seems very short sighted, despite being in the EU for 40 years and not having given a go being "out".

Again, it's a game of opinions and no one can say for certain which way is right ..... But I'm willing to take that leap, others are not.
		
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Thank you for your polite reply.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, I would love to think that the folk on here were much tooo sensible to advocate a no deal Brexit.
The problem I have is that I saw a poll somewhere that said 40%+ of leave voters would be happy with a no deal Brexit.

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If you actually read the 'Agreement' proposed by EU and being pushed by May, there's actually no deal in anyway...it's simply an agreement about UK's termination of EU Membership, with some pretty catastrophic clauses that could be invoked in certain circumstances - that mean UK is still effectively controlled from Brussels/Strasbourg. It's the epitome of (being on the wrong end of) May's 'No Deal is better than a bad deal' statement!. So compared with that 'deal', I'd certainly prefer No Deal!

The Exit Agreement should really be pretty trivial. However Northern Ireland's borders present a (significant) complication. I believe the EU has used that to frustrate the exit process!

Trade, Standards, Co-operation etc agreements have not been formally started, and won't until the Exit Agreement is finalised. Had we left on March 29, these could have started by now!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I see that Farage is the latest MP to be attacked with milkshake.  Is this really the state of modern politics, where people have been so radicalised that an MEP isn't safe to campaign without fear of being attacked.

It's pathetic that ANY MP is attacked by the public.
		
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I do not think my wife and I have been radicalised, in fact we are probably two of the most law abiding citizens you could find.
But given the chance...................................


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## drdel (May 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lots of insults flying around but I notice no one has replied to my ' tell me the benefits of a no deal Brexit' question.
Well, apart from the message on a bus one. if that counts.
		
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Many have posted their opinions on why leaving is a good idea.

If you're really that fussed you could 'search' back on my posts where you'll find I consistently laid out what I, as an economist, think. IMO the future for the UK inside the EU would see us soaked for proportionately more and more cash as the EU attempts to expand its areas of influence. The EU has given preferential funding to schemes for the other members rather than the UK with, in my direct experience, little or no sensible controls & processes. As a result the UK has been made uncompetitive in many sectors of the internal market while others flout the investment rules with little or no downside.

There is considerable anti-EU feeling across members so it will be interesting to see if, following this round of elections and the demise of Juncker and his cohorts a 'new' set of MEPs will stem the expansionist agenda and whether it can then regain its roots as a sensible trading alliance - I have my doubts hence I firmly believe the UK has to develop its own way on the global market.


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## Fade and Die (May 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Many have posted their opinions on why leaving is a good idea.

If you're really that fussed you could 'search' back on my posts where you'll find I consistently laid out what I, as an economist, think. IMO the future for the UK inside the EU would see us soaked for proportionately more and more cash as the EU attempts to expand its areas of influence. The EU has given preferential funding to schemes for the other members rather than the UK with, in my direct experience, little or no sensible controls & processes. As a result the UK has been made uncompetitive in many sectors of the internal market while others flout the investment rules with little or no downside.

There is considerable anti-EU feeling across members so it will be interesting to see if, following this round of elections and the demise of Juncker and his cohorts a 'new' set of MEPs will stem the expansionist agenda and whether it can then regain its roots as a sensible trading alliance - I have my doubts hence I firmly believe the UK has to develop its own way on the global market.
		
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I wouldnâ€™t hold your breath for a reply... Thatâ€™s just the sort of post our Poundland Rob Roy hates  ðŸ˜¶


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## Doon frae Troon (May 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Many have posted their opinions on why leaving is a good idea.

If you're really that fussed you could 'search' back on my posts where you'll find I consistently laid out what I, as an economist, think. IMO the future for the UK inside the EU would see us soaked for proportionately more and more cash as the EU attempts to expand its areas of influence. The EU has given preferential funding to schemes for the other members rather than the UK with, in my direct experience, little or no sensible controls & processes. As a result the UK has been made uncompetitive in many sectors of the internal market while others flout the investment rules with little or no downside.

There is considerable anti-EU feeling across members so it will be interesting to see if, following this round of elections and the demise of Juncker and his cohorts a 'new' set of MEPs will stem the expansionist agenda and whether it can then regain its roots as a sensible trading alliance - I have my doubts hence I firmly believe the UK has to develop its own way on the global market.
		
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Thank you for your reply but I was specifically asking for the benefits of a 'No Deal' Brexit which seems to be gathering pace with leavers.


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## robinthehood (May 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thank you for your reply but I was specifically asking for the benefits of a 'No Deal' Brexit which seems to be gathering pace with leavers.
		
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I've listed them out below if that helps


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## jp5 (May 21, 2019)

I see Farage's lot is banning Channel 4 from their events following the investigation into their funding.

The Brexit Party using the Trump playbook. I'd like to think the good people of this land are better than falling for that.


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## Hacker Khan (May 21, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I see Farage's lot is banning Channel 4 from their events following the investigation into their funding.

The Brexit Party using the Trump playbook. I'd like to think the good people of this land are better than falling for that.
		
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Fake news....


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I see Farage's lot is banning Channel 4 from their events following the investigation into their funding.

The Brexit Party using the Trump playbook. I'd like to think the good people of this land are better than falling for that.
		
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I can't find the detail of Channel 4's ban, other than there is a ban. What is it they've said about the Brexit party, other than its being bank rolled by Aaron Banks. Have they reported news or put a negative editorial to it?

The Electoral Commission is visiting the Brexit Party's HQ today to investigate their financing. Providing Bank's donation is declared, what's the issue? That said, I do think the Electoral Commission needs to update its criteria. PayPal, which is the route of a lot of the Brexit Party's funding is very difficult to track, e.g. there may be Â£1XXXX coming from foreign donations that only register as GBP on PayPal to the Brexit Party. It is open to abuse.

Gordon Brown has had a fair bit to say about the Brexit Party's financing via PayPal. Its a smear unless he can prove it. Kate Hoey MP, also Labour, has said its a smear against the Brexit Party.


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## Hacker Khan (May 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I can't find the detail of Channel 4's ban, other than there is a ban. What is it they've said about the Brexit party, other than its being bank rolled by Aaron Banks. *Have they reported news or put a negative editorial to it?*

The Electoral Commission is visiting the Brexit Party's HQ today to investigate their financing. Providing Bank's donation is declared, what's the issue? That said, I do think the Electoral Commission needs to update its criteria. PayPal, which is the route of a lot of the Brexit Party's funding is very difficult to track, e.g. there may be Â£1XXXX coming from foreign donations that only register as GBP on PayPal to the Brexit Party. It is open to abuse.

Gordon Brown has had a fair bit to say about the Brexit Party's financing via PayPal. *Its a smear unless he can prove it*. *Kate Hoey MP, also Labour, has said its a smear against the Brexit Party.*

Click to expand...

Depends if you are a Farage fan boy or not. If you are then no doubt it is a libellous slur.  If you are not then it is a very dangerous move by someone who objects to a news outlet digging into their finances a bit.  And as for Kate Hoey then she's a hard leaver so it's not exactly surprising she's said that. And if it's such a smear then I'm sure Farage will sue Channel 4 and the courts will find in his favour....

Absolutely agree with jp5, I'd of hoped the UK was better than falling for this sub Trump level BS of attacking any media outlet that does not just repeat your views without question or looks a bit deeper into someones background and finances to see if politicians are being financed by organisations with very vested interests. But after the last 2 years I have a depressing feeling that we no longer are better, and we have a cloned Trump like future to look forwards to.

And as for Gordon Brown he called for an investigation into the Brexit party's funding and said '_Democracy is fatally undermined if unexplained, unreported and thus undeclared and perhaps under the counter and underhand campaign finance â€“ from whom and from where we do not know â€“ is being used to influence the very elections that are at the heart of our democratic system_. '  Not sure that constitutes a smear in my book, to me it more of a better understanding of democracy than many seem to have.


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Depends if you are a Farage fan boy or not. If you are then no doubt it is a libellous slur.  If you are not then it is a very dangerous move by someone who objects to a news outlet digging into their finances a bit.  And as for Kate Hoey then she's a hard leaver so it's not exactly surprising she's said that. And if it's such a smear then I'm sure Farage will sue Channel 4 and the courts will find in his favour....

Absolutely agree with jp5, I'd of hoped the UK was better than falling for this sub Trump level BS of attacking any media outlet that does not just repeat your views without question or looks a bit deeper into someones background and finances to see if politicians are being financed by organisations with very vested interests. But after the last 2 years I have a depressing feeling that we no longer are better, and we have a cloned Trump like future to look forwards to.
		
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I neither agree nor disagree with JP5, and I'm definitely no Farage/BNP/Brexit Party fanboy. My question is how was it reported by Ch4? Farage and Brexit is very polarising/marmite. If its been reported fair and square, no problem.

On a wider note, and more as a generalisation when it comes to news reporting, I prefer the news to reported not editorialised. I want to form my own opinion, not have some form of spin on it to make it look good/bad/exaggerated.


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## spongebob59 (May 21, 2019)

So she's bringing back a deal trying to appease everyone  it will end  up with support fr on no-one.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 21, 2019)

The headline says that if MPs vote to pass her Withdrawal bill( and then if the vote is won, presumably we should be leaving the EU), then, as a reward,( for passing her Bill) they can then vote for another referendum, one result of which would be to NOT leave the EU.
Hey...?...

Is this a wind up?  Can someone, who may know what the hell she means, kindly explain how there is any sense or reason in this course of action?


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## adam6177 (May 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So she's bringing back a deal trying to appease everyone  it will end  up with support fr on no-one.
		
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This is now the big test for MPs, are they truly out for themselves or are they true to the process.


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## TheDiablo (May 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I neither agree nor disagree with JP5, and I'm definitely no Farage/BNP/Brexit Party fanboy. My question is how was it reported by Ch4? Farage and Brexit is very polarising/marmite. If its been reported fair and square, no problem.

On a wider note, and more as a generalisation when it comes to news reporting, I prefer the news to reported not editorialised. I want to form my own opinion, not have some form of spin on it to make it look good/bad/exaggerated.
		
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Im sure you're well aware, but if that's your preferred route to the news (as it is mine) then you've little option outside of Reuters. 

Their mission is to provide the news by having a network of local presence to the various media outlets, who can then spin it any way they choose. Its why you often see 'Reuters reporting:...' on breaking news whilst they work out their spin on the story. 

BBC, Ch4, Guardian are examples of those who claim not to put too much editorial spin on them, but thats debatable to say the least.


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## ColchesterFC (May 21, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The headline says that if MPs vote to pass her Withdrawal bill( and then if the vote is won, presumably we should be leaving the EU), then, as a reward,( for passing her Bill) they can then vote for another referendum, one result of which would be to NOT leave the EU.
Hey...?
		
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I would imagine that Doon and other pro-Scottish independence forum members will have been delighted with the announcement today from Theresa May. The headline might as well have been "Theresa May gives green light for Scottish Indy Ref 2" as she can't very well accept the possibility of a 2nd referendum on membership of the EU and reject the possibility of a 2nd referendum on Scottish independence.


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## Kellfire (May 21, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			This is now the big test for MPs, are they truly out for themselves or are they true to the process.
		
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No, itâ€™s are they out to do the best for their constituents (aka remain) or go against that notion and go for Brexit knowing itâ€™ll appease the vocal, richer, more violent masses.


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## chrisd (May 21, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			No, itâ€™s are they out to do the best for their constituents (aka remain) or go against that notion and go for Brexit knowing itâ€™ll appease the vocal, richer, more violent masses.
		
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Once again Kellfire- comedy gold!


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## Kellfire (May 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Once again Kellfire- comedy gold!
		
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All depends on your opinion - are politicians elected to do what they feel is best or to be puppets to please ignorant voters.


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## chrisd (May 21, 2019)

If politicians vote for a referendum and promise to enact the result of it, have a general election and promise to obey the majority wish if they are voted in and then vote in the HOC to invoke Article 50 then I would assume that they are either undemocratic to thwart the decision of the people or just liars and need to be sacked at the next opportunity.


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## IanM (May 21, 2019)

Yep.. they establishment are worried, so after Farage now big style.

Whereas other entities continue unmolested.


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## Slime (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			No, itâ€™s are they out to do the best for their constituents (aka remain) or go against that notion and go for Brexit knowing itâ€™ll appease the vocal, richer, more violent masses.
		
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Every time you post comments like this it reminds me to put the bins out!
I wonder why.


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## adam6177 (May 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			Every time you post comments like this it reminds me to put the bins out!
I wonder why.
		
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This is why the ignore function is great on this forum ðŸ‘


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			This is why the ignore function is great on this forum ðŸ‘
		
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Ignoring comments you donâ€™t agree with. Sums up a lot of Brexiteers views.


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## Dando (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Ignoring comments you donâ€™t agree with. Sums up a lot of Brexiteers views.
		
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I suppose remainers stamping their feet and trying to get the vote to leave overturned is ok


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## chrisd (May 22, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			This is why the ignore function is great on this forum ðŸ‘
		
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I'd never put him on ignore! I think its important to read the views of people whose sole aim in life seems to be to wind everyone else up but usually just prove how ignorant they themselves are


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## robinthehood (May 22, 2019)

Dando said:



			I suppose remainers stamping their feet and trying to get the vote to leave overturned is ok
		
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Tbf it's working ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			No, itâ€™s are they out to do the best for their constituents (aka remain) or go against that notion and go for Brexit knowing itâ€™ll appease the vocal, richer, more violent masses.
		
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Pretty sure it was a Remainer that committed assault with a deadly milkshake...


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2019)

Dando said:



			I suppose remainers stamping their feet and trying to get the vote to leave overturned is ok
		
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Let's look at it from a remainers point of view - we're trying to do the best for the general public including the vast majority of brexiteers. We believe the vote to leave will materially harm society on the whole. Why wouldn't we do everything to do the best for everyone?


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:







Pretty sure it was a Remainer that committed assault with a deadly milkshake...

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I don't agree with throwing milkshakes at Farage or Robinson; it's a waste of good milkshake!


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Let's look at it from a remainers point of view - we're trying to do the best for the general public including the vast majority of brexiteers. We believe the vote to leave will materially harm society on the whole. Why wouldn't we do everything to do the best for everyone?
		
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And Brexiteers believe they are doing the best for the UK, including Remainers. All depends on how someone wants to spin it.


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And Brexiteers believe they are doing the best for the UK, including Remainers. All depends on how someone wants to spin it.
		
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Oh, absolutely. The individuals point of view is important - I fail to understand why Brexiteers can't see the toxicity and racist undertones of the likes of Farage and Robinson. No doubt, Brexiteers think that Remainers are brainwashed by the EU.


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## Slime (May 22, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			This is why the ignore function is great on this forum ðŸ‘
		
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I can't put Kellfire on ignore, he/she makes me laugh with all his faux opinions, bad grammar and childish angst.
He or she is hilarious.


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Oh, absolutely. The individuals point of view is important - I fail to understand why Brexiteers can't see the toxicity and racist undertones of the likes of Farage and Robinson. No doubt, Brexiteers think that Remainers are brainwashed by the EU.
		
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Maybe many Leavers actually think Farage/Robinson are racist bigots but chose Leave for different reasons, e.g. increasing federalism.


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			bad grammar
		
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Hey now, whilst I may sometimes drop into colloquialisms, overall I have an excellent standard of the written word - don't get personal.


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe many Leavers actually think Farage/Robinson are racist bigots but chose Leave for different reasons, e.g. increasing federalism.
		
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When they say this, they rarely seem to back it up. They mention things like immigration and the ability to set our own laws, and then show blatant lack of understanding of the immigration rules and just how few laws actually stem from the EU.


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			When they say this, they rarely seem to back it up. They mention things like immigration and the ability to set our own laws, and then show blatant lack of understanding of the immigration rules and just how few laws actually stem from the EU.
		
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And the same can be said of many Remainers who, incidentally, have Toxic Tony the warmonger as their poster boy.

On the issue of setting their own laws; the U.K. has objected to xxx laws from the EU, and lost 84% of those objections. Sure looks like the U.K. doesnâ€™t control its own laws. And an aside to the laws, thereâ€™s the EU directives.... thereâ€™s substance in some of the sovereignty argument.

Just playing Devilâ€™s Advocate to show how subjective the majority of the argument is for both sides.


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## robinthehood (May 22, 2019)

Oof,
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tor-while-giving-interview-outside-parliament


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Let's look at it from a remainers point of view - we're trying to do the best for the general public including the vast majority of brexiteers. We believe the vote to leave will materially harm society on the whole. Why wouldn't we do everything to do the best for everyone?
		
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Who is this WE, are you talking about the minority again.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I would imagine that Doon and other pro-Scottish independence forum members will have been delighted with the announcement today from Theresa May. The headline might as well have been "Theresa May gives green light for Scottish Indy Ref 2" as she can't very well accept the possibility of a 2nd referendum on membership of the EU and reject the possibility of a 2nd referendum on Scottish independence.
		
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Not really, I have friends and relatives in England and Wales and I would not like to see them stuck with a Johnson/Farage fudge running rUK. Mind you a couple of the Essex crowd are all for it..

May is certainly the best recruiting officer that the Independence movement has had, probably better than Farage now.

I see The Ruth Davidson Party [aka Scots Tories] and Viceroy Muddle have gone topsy turvy yet again about supporting Johnson and second referendums. 
Mind you it's only Wed. probably be a different story again come Fri.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Oh, absolutely. The individuals point of view is important - I fail to understand why Brexiteers can't see the toxicity and racist undertones of the likes of Farage and Robinson. No doubt, Brexiteers think that Remainers are brainwashed by the EU.
		
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They do, it appears to be remainers who seem to give them the oxygen of publicity.


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Who is this WE, are you talking about the minority again.
		
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There are two different matters. What was the majority in the vote that took place in 2016? Brexit.

What is the majority opinion across the country now? I think we both know that it's to remain.

So no, I don't think I am in the minority as things stand and I completely disagree with the idea of pushing ahead with Brexit, given what we know now and the issues it will create.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			When they say this, they rarely seem to back it up. They mention things like immigration and the ability to set our own laws, and then show blatant lack of understanding of the immigration rules and just how few laws actually stem from the EU.
		
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Perhaps you can explain why the Government cannot give British Steel due to EU rules on competitiveness. Do you think such EU legislation is good for the thousands who may be about to lose their jobs.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			There are two different matters. What was the majority in the vote that took place in 2016? Brexit.

What is the majority opinion across the country now? I think we both know that it's to remain.

So no, I don't think I am in the minority as things stand and I completely disagree with the idea of pushing ahead with Brexit, given what we know now and the issues it will create.
		
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You do not know what the voting intentions are of the British Public so why do you post such nonsense. Please don't quote polls, it was polls that said Remain would win the referendum.

I appreciate that you posts are purely to wind people up with no real facts to back it up.


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I appreciate that you posts are purely to wind people up with no real facts to back it up.
		
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...and you resort to that. I hate to use cliches but â€œenough saidâ€.


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## robinthehood (May 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps you can explain why the Government cannot give British Steel due to EU rules on competitiveness. Do you think such EU legislation is good for the thousands who may be about to lose their jobs.
		
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Massively simplistic view on British steel. And Even outside the EU there are still restrictions on state aid.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			...and you resort to that. I hate to use cliches but â€œenough saidâ€.
		
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So tell me how you know the voting intentions of the voting public.


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## Foxholer (May 22, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			...
And as for Gordon Brown he called for an investigation into the Brexit party's funding and said '_Democracy is fatally undermined if unexplained, unreported and thus undeclared and perhaps under the counter and underhand campaign finance â€“ from whom and from where we do not know â€“ is being used to influence the very elections that are at the heart of our democratic system_. '  Not sure that constitutes a smear in my book, to me it more of a better understanding of democracy than many seem to have.
		
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While I agree with the gist of Brown's statement (not all) and HK's summary of it, though I'm not (yet) convinced that an investigation is warranted! 

I'm afraid the 'mud sticks' analogy also applies. And, to me, that's not 'democracy'!


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Massively simplistic view on British steel. And Even outside the EU there are still restrictions on state aid.
		
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But you cannot ignore the fact that part of the problem is EU legislation when it comes to loaning them bail out money.


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## Beezerk (May 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			So tell me how you know the voting intentions of the voting public.
		
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Because the figures he's chosen to read have fitted his mindset.
No one knows the outcome if another Referendum were to happen, all I do know is the MP's are full of absolute guff and it's those who seem to be saying that the UK now wants to remain.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			There are two different matters. What was the majority in the vote that took place in 2016? Brexit.

*What is the majority opinion across the country now? I think we both know that it's to remain.*

So no, I don't think I am in the minority as things stand and I completely disagree with the idea of pushing ahead with Brexit, given what we know now and the issues it will create.
		
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Can you provide some facts to back this up please?


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## robinthehood (May 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			But you cannot ignore the fact that part of the problem is EU legislation when it comes to loaning them bail out money.
		
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? The problem is they are losing orders, the fact that they need bailing out in the first place is what should be bothering you.


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			? The problem is they are losing orders, the fact that they need bailing out in the first place is what should be bothering you.
		
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I'm not in favor of a bail out but the thousands employed there might be. You cannot ignore the fact that EU legislation does not permit it. Perhaps if you are a steel worker it might sway you in any further vote on anything EU.


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## Grant85 (May 22, 2019)

With regards to the PM bringing back her deal, basically with things in it that don't exist (i.e. Alternative Arrangements) I am just astounded that this lack of basic competency is allowed to continue. 

Time was, a government would pretty much pull any vote they knew they would lose, and would even re-work ones they thought would be tight. 

May's only strategy has been to run the clock down to a series of cliff edge moments in the hope that enough of her MPs would see that the Tory voters have become pretty Brexity and the MPs will fall in line. She has done absolutely zero in terms of seek actual compromise to try and cobble together 325 MPs from around the house. 

What's worse / funnier is that despite May's incompetence, the ERG have actually been out manoeuvred by forcing their no-competence vote through in December when it was fairly clear at the time she would hold on. This has basically guaranteed her this whole year to linger on in the hope that either the EU or 325 MPs cave in to get some kind of resolution. 

Personally I am struggling to see a resolution for Brexit that doesn't involve either;
*  remaining
OR
* Brexiting but effectively throwing NI out of the Union and likely leading to Scotland following them

I don't really have a preference either way, but lets not pretend there is a neat and tidy solution that May, BoJo, Corbyn etc. can deliver. A no deal Brexit is not a solution and those crowing to 'just get on with it' are completely ignorant of what that would involve.


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## robinthehood (May 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not in favor of a bail out but the thousands employed there might be. You cannot ignore the fact that EU legislation does not permit it. Perhaps if you are a steel worker it might sway you in any further vote on anything EU.
		
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I'm not ignoring it, but even outside the EU there would still be restrictions on state aid. Whether that's wto or us adopting eu regs ,


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps you can explain why the Government cannot give British Steel due to EU rules on competitiveness. Do you think such EU legislation is good for the thousands who may be about to lose their jobs.
		
Click to expand...

If the work isn't viable, why should it survive just because it is British?


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Can you provide some facts to back this up please?
		
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Sadly no, because MPs are too spineless to call a second referendum to fix this mess we're in.


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## Hacker Khan (May 22, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			With regards to the PM bringing back her deal, basically with things in it that don't exist (i.e. Alternative Arrangements) I am just astounded that this lack of basic competency is allowed to continue.

Time was, a government would pretty much pull any vote they knew they would lose, and would even re-work ones they thought would be tight.

May's only strategy has been to run the clock down to a series of cliff edge moments in the hope that enough of her MPs would see that the Tory voters have become pretty Brexity and the MPs will fall in line. She has done absolutely zero in terms of seek actual compromise to try and cobble together 325 MPs from around the house.

What's worse / funnier is that despite May's incompetence, the ERG have actually been out manoeuvred by forcing their no-competence vote through in December when it was fairly clear at the time she would hold on. This has basically guaranteed her this whole year to linger on in the hope that either the EU or 325 MPs cave in to get some kind of resolution.

Personally I am struggling to see a resolution for Brexit that doesn't involve either;
*  remaining
OR
* Brexiting but effectively throwing NI out of the Union and likely leading to Scotland following them

I don't really have a preference either way, but lets not pretend there is a neat and tidy solution that May, BoJo, Corbyn etc. can deliver. *A no deal Brexit is not a solution and those crowing to 'just get on with it' are completely ignorant of what that would involve.*

Click to expand...

Amen to the last part.  Just do not understand the mentality of people who just want to get it over with and to hell with the consequences in Ireland, the economy etc etc. Generally if an organisation can not implement an initiate as there is no overall support for it in the organisation and they know it will cause them, at the very least, short term harm, they shelf it.  No sane organisation just goes 'oh well, we'll do it anyway, what's the worst that can happen'.  Still, I suppose that is not someones definition of democracy.


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## Grant85 (May 22, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Amen to the last part.  Just do not understand the mentality of people who just want to get it over with and to hell with the consequences in Ireland, the economy etc etc. Generally if an organisation can not implement an initiate as there is no overall support for it in the organisation and they know it will cause them, at the very least, short term harm, they shelf it.  No sane organisation just goes 'oh well, we'll do it anyway, what's the worst that can happen'.  Still, I suppose that is not someones definition of democracy.
		
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In fairness to the Government, they have not pivoted this way. Likely because there are enough sensible heads in there that realise what the pain would be. While short term politically, it would have neutered the Brexit party - likely the Tories would be out of government for decades as a sharp economic shock would cripple many working age people.


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## chrisd (May 22, 2019)

Nobody seems to discuss the increasing federalism the the Lisbon Treaty will dump on us if we were to stay in


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## Doon frae Troon (May 22, 2019)

Welcome to 2020
https://www.theredroar.com/2019/05/unmasked-brexit-rally-thug-is-alt-right-lecturer/

BTW there looks to be about 20 'people' supporting the far right rally.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Sadly no, because MPs are too spineless to call a second referendum to fix this mess we're in.
		
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I agree it's a mess and the fix is to get us out of the EU shackles as quickly as possible.


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## robinthehood (May 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Nobody seems to discuss the increasing federalism the the Lisbon Treaty will dump on us if we were to stay in
		
Click to expand...

Such as?


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## chrisd (May 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Such as?
		
Click to expand...

Read here, this rebuffs a lot of the things that are being said about the Treaty but still imo confirms changes over the next few years that the UK will be adversely affected by being in the UK

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/


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## robinthehood (May 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Read here, this rebuffs a lot of the things that are being said about the Treaty but still imo confirms changes over the next few years that the UK will be adversely affected by being in the UK

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

Click to expand...

Such as......? (that URL is a list if stuff not happening)


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## Kellfire (May 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Read here, this rebuffs a lot of the things that are being said about the Treaty but still imo confirms changes over the next few years that the UK will be adversely affected by being in the UK

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

Click to expand...

That page is basically a list of rebuttals against most fears of the EU. I donâ€™t see how you possibly see it as a negative thing.


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## robinthehood (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			That page is basically a list of rebuttals against most fears of the EU. I donâ€™t see how you possibly see it as a negative thing.
		
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interesting site, has a good article about the 350 Million


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			That page is basically a list of rebuttals against most fears of the EU. I donâ€™t see how you possibly see it as a negative thing.
		
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I'm a Remainer, as I've said before. Partly selfish, living in Spain but that's not quite so critical now we have Residencia. And very much because of the integration in business. However, why does the EU need to further extend its reach into national laws/rules?  I do see it as a negative thing. Its not required. If anything, I'd like to see them dialled back quite a bit. For me, the majority of why I'm ok with the EU is for trade.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 22, 2019)

So can someone explain what the hell is going on at the moment? Heard the deal was tweaked and something about the UK not splitting and also something about a second referendum?


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## chrisd (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			That page is basically a list of rebuttals against most fears of the EU. I donâ€™t see how you possibly see it as a negative thing.
		
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Because many believe that the things that are being claimed WILL happen will happen, it was the easiest list I could find in the time I had that showed the claims- I accept that it wasnt the best way to make the point but I didn't have time to do anything else


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## Dando (May 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So can someone explain what the hell is going on at the moment? Heard the deal was tweaked and something about the UK not splitting and also something about a second referendum?
		
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to honest Phil, I don't think anyone has a Scooby about what's going on


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So can someone explain what the hell is going on at the moment? Heard the deal was tweaked and something about the UK not splitting and also something about a second referendum?
		
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The deal hasn't been tweaked at all. As per the EU's statements the deal will not be reopened. What May is proposing is that if the deal is passed the Tories will create legislation in Parliament that places into law EU employment laws and environmental laws. And if passed, a second referendum, the confirmatory vote. 

Its a fudge, and her words carry as much wait as the political declaration from the EU. Its a "promise" which could easily be reversed.


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2019)

Dando said:



			to honest Phil, I don't think anyone has a Scooby about what's going on
		
Click to expand...

I'm working out in Denmark at the minute and today had lunch with 2 Danish and 4 German colleagues. The conversation eventually got round to Brexit and I was asked what was happening. All I could do was shrug and respond with "I've got no idea, and I think that goes for almost everyone else in the UK as well".


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## Foxholer (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Sadly no, because MPs are too spineless to call a second referendum to fix this mess we're in.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly, you are proposing action that I am fundamentally against - and which many of the Leave advocates on here have criricised THE EU for (invalidly imo). That is re-running referendums until te 'correct' result is obtained!

There was more than sufficient warning that it was a 'once in a generation choice' 




As a complete aside, during my search for the above vid, I found this one and couldn't agree, with what I watched, much more! The right wing press has far too much influence imo!


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## robinthehood (May 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Sadly, you are proposing action that I am fundamentally against - and which many of the Leave advocates on here have *criricised* THE EU for (invalidly imo). That is re-running referendums until te 'correct' result is obtained!

There was more than sufficient warning that it was a 'once in a generation choice' 




As a complete aside, during my search for the above vid, I found this one and couldn't agree, with what I watched, much more! The right wing press has far too much influence imo!
		
Click to expand...

Is that like covfefe...


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## Swinglowandslow (May 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Let's look at it from a remainers point of view - we're trying to do the best for the general public including the vast majority of brexiteers. We believe the vote to leave will materially harm society on the whole. Why wouldn't we do everything to do the best for everyone?
		
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Because you are not entitled "to do everything". A vote, the referendum, was made and you, if you are democratic and not morally bankrupt, are obliged to accept it. 
But maybe voting results are unacceptable to you. Or just the ones you agree with.


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## Foxholer (May 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Read here, this rebuffs a lot of the things that are being said about the Treaty but still imo confirms changes over the next few years that the UK will be adversely affected by being in the UK

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

Click to expand...

A classic 'own goal' post if ever I saw one! There's SO much in there where the first sentence of the rebuttal is 'This is False'! the few clauses where the claim has been decreed reasonable/correct have actually been in place for years, with no noticeable issue (imo)!


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## Foxholer (May 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Is that like covfefe...
		
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Probly!


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## Beezerk (May 22, 2019)

Andrea Leadsom resigns ðŸ¤”


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## robinthehood (May 22, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Andrea Leadsom resigns ðŸ¤”
		
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Shame she hasn't quit as an MP.  No doubt she'll be back with bojo


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## Lord Tyrion (May 22, 2019)

Surely TM has to go by Friday now. Apparently Leadsom was the 36th resignation from her cabinet. That must be a record.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 22, 2019)

Will anything actually change if she does resign ? What difference will it make - Johnson wonâ€™t do anything - hasnâ€™t got the guts


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will anything actually change if she does resign ? What difference will it make - Johnson wonâ€™t do anything - hasnâ€™t got the guts
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it matters who is in charge. The EU have said that the Withdrawal Agreement can't be renegotiated and the HOC have made clear that No Deal won't be allowed to happen. That either leaves us with the current dog turd of a deal or revoking Article 50.

Does anyone know the process that would have to be followed to revoke Article 50? What I mean is, can the PM be forced to revoke Article 50 by the HOC? Or could a die-hard Brexiteer get voted in as PM and simply ignore what Parliament wants and let us leave with No Deal by default on 31st October?


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## User62651 (May 22, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure it matters who is in charge. The EU have said that the Withdrawal Agreement can't be renegotiated and the HOC have made clear that No Deal won't be allowed to happen. That either leaves us with the current dog turd of a deal or revoking Article 50.

Does anyone know the process that would have to be followed to revoke Article 50? What I mean is, *can the PM be forced to revoke Article 50 by the HOC? Or could a die-hard Brexiteer get voted in as PM and simply ignore what Parliament wants and let us leave with No Deal by default on 31st October?*

Click to expand...

Not 100% on this but I think the whole Gina Millar case was settled in court that Govt had to let Commons have the final say on the leaving agreement or else May would've forced through her unpopular deal as an executive decision some time ago. So no a new PM can't do that (ignore parliament), needs Commons agreement by majority. With a hung parliament very difficult ........ as May has found out.
Saying that if we get to Oct31 with no change to where we are now and EU say no more extensions then maybe we will be forced out with No Deal, must come a time EU will say enough's enough. In that case EU has kicked us out rather than us opting to leave with No Deal. Suppose a new Brexiteer PM may try and Brexit like that, run clock down and make EU kick us out.


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## robinthehood (May 22, 2019)

Maybe Boris will be the man who cancels brexit .


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Not 100% on this but I think the whole Gina Millar case was settled in court that Govt had to let Commons have the final say on the leaving agreement or else May would've forced through her unpopular deal as an executive decision some time ago. So no a new PM can't do that (ignore parliament), needs Commons agreement by majority. With a hung parliament very difficult ........ as May has found out.
*Saying that if we get to Oct31 with no change to where we are now and EU say no more extensions then maybe we will be forced out with No Deal,* must come a time EU will say enough's enough. In that case EU has kicked us out rather than us opting to leave with No Deal. Suppose a new Brexiteer PM may try and Brexit like that, run clock down and make EU kick us out.
		
Click to expand...

I saw a story today that Macron had said that Brexit has to be settled by 31st October one way or another and that he will block any further extensions. That could of course be political posturing or could be the start of the EU countries signalling that they've had enough of us. Even if we were to revoke Article 50 I don't think that we'd be welcomed back with open arms. Yes, the EU might want us to remain, but that has surely got more to do with our financial contributions than anything else. As a nation we've never really embraced the idea of EU membership.


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## Blue in Munich (May 22, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I saw a story today that Macron had said that Brexit has to be settled by 31st October one way or another and that he will block any further extensions. That could of course be political posturing or could be the start of the EU countries signalling that they've had enough of us. Even if we were to revoke Article 50 I don't think that we'd be welcomed back with open arms. Yes, the EU might want us to remain, but that has surely got more to do with our financial contributions than anything else. *As a nation we've never really embraced the idea of EU membership.*

Click to expand...

To be fair, has the EU ever really embraced us as members?  de Gaulle never wanted us, and their actions since the Referendum have done little to endear us to them.


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## User62651 (May 22, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			To be fair, has the EU ever really embraced us as members?  de Gaulle never wanted us, and their actions since the Referendum have done little to endear us to them.
		
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de Gaulle was a long time ago when there were 6 member states and before freedom of movement, there are currently 28 member states with loads of EU people happy to come and live work here and vice versa so no wouldn't accept that at all. Anything to make a case for leaving? Clutching at straws imo.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 23, 2019)

For my sins and I apologise, I watched PMQs yesterday.  And I was just stunned by the gall of the clown who represents the SNP in that charade.

His view is because Parliament cannot enforce the democratic will of the people, Brexit should be cancelled.  Which of course follows on from wanting a vote on Scottish Independence, losing it, so therefore wanting another one.   

He really doesn't quite get the word "democracy" does he?


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## Hobbit (May 23, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			For my sins and I apologise, I watched PMQs yesterday.  And I was just stunned by the gall of the clown who represents the SNP in that charade.

His view is because Parliament cannot enforce the democratic will of the people, Brexit should be cancelled.  Which of course follows on from wanting a vote on Scottish Independence, losing it, so therefore wanting another one.  

He really doesn't quite get the word "democracy" does he?
		
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I was stunned by how empty the Tory benches were, including a number of notable absentees from the front benches. Surely she must realise sheâ€™s well past her sell by date.


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## PieMan (May 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			de Gaulle was a long time ago when there were 6 member states and before freedom of movement, there are currently 28 member states with loads of EU people happy to come and live work here and vice versa so no wouldn't accept that at all. Anything to make a case for leaving? Clutching at straws imo.
		
Click to expand...

After the Referendum result I went over to Brussels as per usual to a number of meetings with the Commission and other Member States - was told by plenty of them in the margins "well, the UK has never really been seen as true Europeans and fully bought into the European project".

The one major reason why the EU wants us to stay Â£Â£Â£Â£. The first meeting I attended that was actually the first question from the Romanian delegate "who's going to make up the UK contribution to x when they leave the EU".


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## User62651 (May 23, 2019)

PieMan said:



			After the Referendum result I went over to Brussels as per usual to a number of meetings with the Commission and other Member States - was told by plenty of them in the margins "well, the UK has never really been seen as true Europeans and fully bought into the European project".

The one major reason why the EU wants us to stay Â£Â£Â£Â£. The first meeting I attended that was actually the first question from the Romanian delegate "who's going to make up the UK contribution to x when they leave the EU".
		
Click to expand...

A fair question, if any nett contributor opted to leave the same question would get asked. Older generations perhaps haven't integrated so well for whatever reason but younger ones have and are 7 to 1 in favour of remaining. We have our opts outs from full integration as do other member states. This 'us and them' approach is a thing of the past.


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## PieMan (May 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			A fair question, if any nett contributor opted to leave the same question would get asked. Older generations perhaps haven't integrated so well for whatever reason but younger ones have and are 7 to 1 in favour of remaining. We have our opts outs from full integration as do other member states. This 'us and them' approach is a thing of the past.
		
Click to expand...

But the 'us and them' approach is very much alive and well in the EU directed towards the UK! Has been for a long time and always when we've tried to be the voice of reason in EU negotiations. In my first hand experience it's actually worse coming from the EU!

But there you go, as long as the younger generation are happy that's the main thing (actually all I've ever known is being in the EU - been offered numerous opportunities to work in Brussels - so still class myself as being part of that generation). Will be generally interested to know how many of them are keen to go off and live and work in Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and the poorer Member States where wages etc aren't as good as the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2019)

Farage's bus tour not going very smoothie after bloody sundae.
He is afraid to leave his bus.


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## Slime (May 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Will anything actually change if she does resign ? What difference will it make - Johnson wonâ€™t do anything - hasnâ€™t got the guts
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it'll make any difference, no matter who replaces May.
No MP would be able to get a majority to get any kind of Brexit vote through.
There are too many just hell bent on causing as much chaos as possible rather than exacting the will of the voting public.


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## IanM (May 23, 2019)

If we we leaving, we wouldn't be voting for the Pretend Parliament today, would we.  Guess how long ago the prep to hold this was made?

I think the majority of Remain Voters voted to stay in "a trading bloc" not for Federalism.  But the EU leaders are fairly clear on what they are doing.


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## jp5 (May 23, 2019)

Slime said:



			I don't think it'll make any difference, no matter who replaces May.
No MP would be able to get a majority to get any kind of Brexit vote through.
There are too many just hell bent on causing as much chaos as possible rather than exacting the will of the voting public.
		
Click to expand...

Mrs May tried to enact the will of the voting public, and she was blocked predominantly by the likes of the ERG. Whoever follows her will have the same problem. This will drag for years, probably decades.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Not 100% on this but I think the whole Gina Millar case was settled in court that Govt had to let Commons have the final say on the leaving agreement or else May would've forced through her unpopular deal as an executive decision some time ago. So no a new PM can't do that (ignore parliament), needs Commons agreement by majority. With a hung parliament very difficult ........ as May has found out.
Saying that if we get to Oct31 with no change to where we are now and EU say no more extensions then maybe we will be forced out with No Deal, must come a time EU will say enough's enough. In that case EU has kicked us out rather than us opting to leave with No Deal. Suppose a new Brexiteer PM may try and Brexit like that, run clock down and make EU kick us out.
		
Click to expand...

Re.Hung Parliament.
I actually heard May using that as an excuse the other day.
Conveniently forgetting that it was not a hung Parliament when she was elected as Tory leader.


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## IanM (May 23, 2019)

Doon old chap, are you one of the people Mr Juncker was referring too today?  

And, Max, the EU has no intention of "forcing us out" without a Deal.   The current impasse and step were agreed some time back.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 23, 2019)

Someone here just made a great follow-up comment to the view of the SNP leader in the Commons.   Imagine the Scottish Independence vote had been 52% in favour of leaving and after a year of discussions in Parliament, no agreement had been reached.   Would their view have been "OK we can't agree so let's just forget the whole thing"

Answers on a postcard to the usual address.


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## Grant85 (May 23, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Someone here just made a great follow-up comment to the view of the SNP leader in the Commons.   Imagine the Scottish Independence vote had been 52% in favour of leaving and after a year of discussions in Parliament, no agreement had been reached.   Would their view have been "OK we can't agree so let's just forget the whole thing"

Answers on a postcard to the usual address.
		
Click to expand...

Answer is that the reason Brexit has been so much of a catastrophe is that the UK Government want the following; 
* (close to) Frictionless trade with Europe as possible
* no free movement
* NI to have the exact same arrangements as rUK

These 3 things are just not compatible. You can have a version of 1 and 2, but that would throw NI under the bus (i.e. what the UK Gov wanted to do and would have done if they had gotten a majority in 2017). 
You can have 1 and 3, but would have to include free movement. 

In Scotland the situation would be a bit more straightforward as the Scottish Government wouldn't put up these contradictory red lines. 

The negotiation would be more about the assets / debts and what share each party would retain post split. I'm sure Scotland would hold a fairly big Trident shaped card in the former and an equally big balance of payments shaped card in the latter. 

Not saying it would be easy, and might still roll into years rather than months - but it would at least be something that could realistically come to a conclusion on a much easier basis than the current Brexit omnishambles


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## Hacker Khan (May 23, 2019)

I see the 1922 committee want to change the rules and have another vote on TMays competence as they didn't like the result of the first one, so they can get Bojo in, thus probably leading to a no deal Brexit.

I expect those who are so fond of democracy will be up in arms about this....


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Answer is that the reason Brexit has been so much of a catastrophe is that the UK Government want the following; 
* (close to) Frictionless trade with Europe as possible
* no free movement
* NI to have the exact same arrangements as rUK

These 3 things are just not compatible. You can have a version of 1 and 2, but that would throw NI under the bus (i.e. what the UK Gov wanted to do and would have done if they had gotten a majority in 2017). 
You can have 1 and 3, but would have to include free movement. 

In Scotland the situation would be a bit more straightforward as the Scottish Government wouldn't put up these contradictory red lines. 

The negotiation would be more about the assets / debts and what share each party would retain post split. I'm sure Scotland would hold a fairly big Trident shaped card in the former and an equally big balance of payments shaped card in the latter. 

Not saying it would be easy, and might still roll into years rather than months - but it would at least be something that could realistically come to a conclusion on a much easier basis than the current Brexit omnishambles
		
Click to expand...

I think the problem with Brexit is due to the withdrawal agreement being separated from a free trade agreement. If both had been negotiated together the Irish Border would no longer be a major issue.  Our Government was stupid  to agree the two issues being separated


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## Fade and Die (May 23, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see the 1922 committee want to change the rules and have another vote on TMays competence as they didn't like the result of the first one, so they can get Bojo in, thus probably leading to a no deal Brexit.

I expect those who are so fond of democracy will be up in arms about this....
		
Click to expand...

Think that was yesterdayâ€™s news... and they voted against changing the rules. 
Boom!.... democracy in action!ðŸ˜„


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## chrisd (May 23, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Someone here just made a great follow-up comment to the view of the SNP leader in the Commons.   Imagine the Scottish Independence vote had been 52% in favour of leaving and after a year of discussions in Parliament, no agreement had been reached.   Would their view have been "OK we can't agree so let's just forget the whole thing"

Answers on a postcard to the usual address.
		
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I wish you would treat this whole matter with the seriousness that it deserv ..............  fair enough., seems you have ðŸ˜


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 23, 2019)

Well I might well be in Cambodia at the moment - typing this from my hotel room in Phnom Penh to be precise - but I made sure that I had my daughter sorted to vote for me by proxy.  And so Lib Demâ€™s got my vote in SE England region.


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## chrisd (May 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I might well be in Cambodia at the moment - typing this from my hotel room in Phnom Penh to be precise - but I made sure that I had my daughter sorted to vote for me by proxy.  And so Lib Demâ€™s got my vote in SE England region.
		
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Whoopie, so you vote for the biggest liars of a generation ðŸ‘


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Whoopie, so you vote for the biggest liars of a generation ðŸ‘
		
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i thought he just said he voted Lib Dem, not Tory


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## chrisd (May 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i thought he just said he voted Lib Dem, not Tory

Click to expand...

Correct!


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## IanM (May 23, 2019)

Guy Verhofstadt has just issued a tweet citing Putin at the root of the dissent against Europe.  Arrogant knob! 

But  his own propaganda machine is working, we've got people here talking about potential shortages of bog-roll rather than Federalism!


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## Dando (May 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I might well be in Cambodia at the moment - typing this from my hotel room in Phnom Penh to be precise - but I made sure that I had my daughter sorted to vote for me by proxy.  And so Lib Demâ€™s got my vote in SE England region.
		
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that was a complete waste of good paper


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## Blue in Munich (May 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			de Gaulle was a long time ago when there were 6 member states and before freedom of movement, there are currently 28 member states with loads of EU people happy to come and live work here and vice versa so no wouldn't accept that at all. Anything to make a case for leaving? Clutching at straws imo.
		
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It's been well known that we are tolerated like an in-law rather than being one of the family for some time, and Pieman, who deals with them face to face experiences the same thing.  So no straw clutching, not anything to make a case for leaving, just the way it is.


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## Tashyboy (May 23, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Someone here just made a great follow-up comment to the view of the SNP leader in the Commons.   Imagine the Scottish Independence vote had been 52% in favour of leaving and after a year of discussions in Parliament, no agreement had been reached.   Would their view have been "OK we can't agree so let's just forget the whole thing"

Answers on a postcard to the usual address.
		
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Over to Doon for that one.


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## Tashyboy (May 23, 2019)

Just outta interest, Missis May is trying to sort out a deal to put through the HOP. But isn't it the point that the EU said " this is the only deal you are getting". Yet Missis May insists she has another deal ðŸ¤” Or is it the EU deal that was rejected, but tarted up in a differant language.


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## patricks148 (May 23, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Just outta interest, Missis May is trying to sort out a deal to put through the HOP. But isn't it the point that the EU said " this is the only deal you are getting". Yet Missis May insists she has another deal ðŸ¤” Or is it the EU deal that was rejected, but tarted up in a differant language.
		
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i thought you weren't posting anymore??


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## Tashyboy (May 23, 2019)

IanM said:



			Guy Verhofstadt has just issued a tweet citing Putin at the root of the dissent against Europe.  Arrogant knob!

But  his own propaganda machine is working, we've got people here talking about potential shortages of bog-roll rather than Federalism!  

Click to expand...

Shortage of bog rolls, that's why the good Lord God created " Dot leaves". ðŸ‘ Au natural.


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## Tashyboy (May 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i thought you weren't posting anymore??

Click to expand...




patricks148 said:



			i thought you weren't posting anymore??

Click to expand...

Getting me inspiration from our politicians, ðŸ‘Say one thing do, the opposite. Seems to be working quite well. Grand bunch them lot are. Just wish we could have a vote to let them know how appreciated they are.


Hang on back in a bit.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I might well be in Cambodia at the moment - typing this from my hotel room in Phnom Penh to be precise - but I made sure that I had my daughter sorted to vote for me by proxy.  And so Lib Demâ€™s got my vote in SE England region.
		
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Well done Hogie...â€¦.the dream ticket is Greens in Wales. Lib Dems in England Sinn Fein in NI and SNP in Scotland
I am afraid that the Farage followers will win in England and Trump the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 23, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Over to Doon for that one.
		
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Post 9769...â€¦â€¦.said it more sensibly than I could.


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## Kellfire (May 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well done Hogie...â€¦.the dream ticket is Greens in Wales. Lib Dems in England Sinn Fein in NI and SNP in Scotland
I am afraid that the Farage followers will win in England and Trump the UK.

Click to expand...

Alliance in NI!


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## chrisd (May 23, 2019)

Luckily that's all it is - a dream ðŸ‘


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## drdel (May 23, 2019)

PieMan said:



			But the 'us and them' approach is very much alive and well in the EU directed towards the UK! Has been for a long time and always when we've tried to be the voice of reason in EU negotiations. In my first hand experience it's actually worse coming from the EU!

But there you go, as long as the younger generation are happy that's the main thing (actually all I've ever known is being in the EU - been offered numerous opportunities to work in Brussels - so still class myself as being part of that generation). Will be generally interested to know how many of them are keen to go off and live and work in Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and the poorer Member States where wages etc aren't as good as the UK.
		
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Totally my experience.

Its my conclusion that many (if not most) net takers are only hoping the UK will provide help, mostly money. The UK's reputation around the world has provided a 'halo' effect for many EU members. In my experience of submitting projects/research cases to the EU, the UK is seen as a source of cash. They see the UK as successful so we don't need to receive support like organisations from other countries.

The direct result it that the 'internal' market has slowly been distorted against the UK. While UK has honoured rules preventing national governments 'giving' subsidised investments other members have been happy to still 'give' cash to the corporations (France and their car industry, aerospace and energy are just a few examples.

Germany has grown on the basis of manufacturing: but the new world can produce this stuff cheaper so Germany will struggle in the future and it will not be able to subsidise the rest of the EU.

The future economics of the EU is going to be very uncertain which is why they are desperate to keep the UK as a cash cow.


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## Tashyboy (May 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			Totally my experience.

Its my conclusion that many (if not most) net takers are only hoping the UK will provide help, mostly money. The UK's reputation around the world has provided a 'halo' effect for many EU members. In my experience of submitting projects/research cases to the EU, the UK is seen as a source of cash. They see the UK as successful so we don't need to receive support like organisations from other countries.

The direct result it that the 'internal' market has slowly been distorted against the UK. While UK has honoured rules preventing national governments 'giving' subsidised investments other members have been happy to still 'give' cash to the corporations (France and their car industry, aerospace and energy are just a few examples.

Germany has grown on the basis of manufacturing: but the new world can produce this stuff cheaper so Germany will struggle in the future and it will not be able to subsidise the rest of the EU.

The future economics of the EU is going to be very uncertain which is why they are desperate to keep the UK as a cash cow.
		
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A very good written and thought provoking post, however it will be wasted on 48% of the electorate because it don't fit in with there way of thinking. ðŸ‘


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## Leftie (May 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			Totally my experience.

Its my conclusion that many (if not most) net takers are only hoping the UK will provide help, mostly money. The UK's reputation around the world has provided a 'halo' effect for many EU members. In my experience of submitting projects/research cases to the EU, the UK is seen as a source of cash. They see the UK as successful so we don't need to receive support like organisations from other countries.

The direct result it that the 'internal' market has slowly been distorted against the UK. While UK has honoured rules preventing national governments 'giving' subsidised investments other members have been happy to still 'give' cash to the corporations (France and their car industry, aerospace and energy are just a few examples.

Germany has grown on the basis of manufacturing: but the new world can produce this stuff cheaper so Germany will struggle in the future and it will not be able to subsidise the rest of the EU.

The future economics of the EU is going to be very uncertain which is why they are desperate to keep the UK as a cash cow.
		
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And that (plus the creeping federalism) is exactly why I voted leave.  No.  Not immigration.  Not slogans on buses.  Just selfishness (according to some )


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well done Hogie...â€¦.the dream ticket is Greens in Wales. Lib Dems in England Sinn Fein in NI and SNP in Scotland
I am afraid that the Farage followers will win in England and Trump the UK.

Click to expand...

You know Doon having not posted anything here for nearly four months itâ€™s really dispiriting and rather sad that when I post something on my voting yesterday the first and immediate responses I get from the camp of the usual suspects are as sneeringly and condescendingly dismissive as they were to my posting four months ago.  How sad.


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## ColchesterFC (May 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You know Doon having not posted anything here for nearly four months itâ€™s really dispiriting and rather sad that when I post something on my voting yesterday the first and immediate responses I get from the camp of the usual suspects are as sneeringly and condescendingly dismissive as they were to my posting four months ago.  How sad.
		
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I think that you're being a bit over sensitive Hogie. I read the two replies your post got as being aimed at the Lib Dems not at you.

It's also a bit rich for an ardent Remainer to be complaining about about people being "sneeringly and condescendingly dismissive" when many Leave voters have spent the last three years being sneeringly and condescendingly dismissed as racists, thickos or bigots who didn't understand what they voted for by people such as yourself.


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## chrisd (May 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think that you're being a bit over sensitive Hogie. I read the two replies your post got as being aimed at the Lib Dems not at you.

It's also a bit rich for an ardent Remainer to be complaining about about people being "sneeringly and condescendingly dismissive" when many Leave voters have spent the last three years being sneeringly and condescendingly dismissed as racists, thickos or bigots who didn't understand what they voted for by people such as yourself.
		
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Let's not allow the truth get in the way of a good rant.ðŸ‘


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## jp5 (May 24, 2019)

I see Mrs May is resigning.

I look forward to our vote on who the next Prime Minister leading us out of the EU should be.

We don't want to be one of those unelected bureaucracies now, do we.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2019)

I know it was a fishing trip but...we never vote for a PM, we vote for a local MP. TM is leader of a political party, who replaces her is for those in that party. That person will at least have been voted for by their local constituents so they are democratically elected. Too many seem to confuse being PM with being a President.

Has there been a worse PM than TM? I thought Major and Brown would be the worst in my lifetime but she has surpassed them quite comfortably. Totally insular, refused to listen to her cabinet, her mp's. the wider public. She ploughed on with a single policy that was destined to fail and didn't have the skills to change course. The rest of her leadership, anyone remember anything she has done that was worthwhile?


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## jp5 (May 24, 2019)

It's a damning indictment of our democracy that a group of 100,000 people will decide the direction of our country. Whenever a PM resigns, independent of their party, by default there should be a General Election.

Agree on your points on TM though. Completely hypocritical of her to cite compromise in her leaving speech when she spent years avoiding it. Will be the same issues with her successor. For the sake of progress I hope it's a hard Leaver just to move things along. There's other issues in this country we need to talk about.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2019)

jp5 said:



			It's a damning indictment of our democracy that a group of 100,000 people will decide the direction of our country. Whenever a PM resigns, independent of their party, by default there should be a General Election.

Agree on your points on TM though. *Completely hypocritical of her to cite compromise in her leaving speech when she spent years avoiding it.* Will be the same issues with her successor. For the sake of progress I hope it's a hard Leaver just to move things along. There's other issues in this country we need to talk about.
		
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This with knobs on . She is talking compromise now purely because she has failed to bully people to back her. She ignored what people were telling her, put out a dreadful deal, ran the clock down, saw her cabinet leave in droves and still can't seem to understand why people wont back her


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## Bunkermagnet (May 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Has there been a worse PM than TM? I thought Major and Brown would be the worst in my lifetime but she has surpassed them quite comfortably. Totally insular, refused to listen to her cabinet, her mp's. the wider public. She ploughed on with a single policy that was destined to fail and didn't have the skills to change course. The rest of her leadership, anyone remember anything she has done that was worthwhile?
		
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Do you not think what she had was a poisoned chalice? No-one who took over after Camerons scarpered was going to get this through with the split being so equal.


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2019)

We'll never know if Theresa May could have been a good PM, in my opinion. I highly doubt any PM would have done better with the car crash that is Brexit. We had the weaker negotiating position and there was no way the EU were ever going to screw themselves over in those negotiations. No one would have been able to get the all-singing deal that some think she could have. But we all need someone to blame, I guess, and for Brexiteers it will never be themselves for putting the government in an unwinnable position.

Ugh, I was defending a Tory there. That felt wrong.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Do you not think what she had was a poisoned chalice? No-one who took over after Camerons scarpered was going to get this through with the split being so equal.
		
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To an extent but I also think too many other decisions were within her control and she handled them badly.

1/ She choose to stand as PM knowing full well the situation

2/ She had a workable majority, chose to run an early election and then ran the worse campaign in living memory against the worst Labour leader since Michael Foot

3/ What did she do for 18 months after enacting Article 50? The famed Chequers meeting should have happened on day 1, not 18 months down the line

4/ Within days of Chequers the world and their wife was telling her the Chequers deal would fail. Why did she not react to that?

5/ She ploughed on negotiating a deal with the EU that everyone told her, bar a couple of advisers by all accounts, was doomed to fail back home. Her whole strategy was to push MP's to the brink in the hope that they would crack. When they didn't she was a startled rabbit with no alternative.

She has not had an easy time, I agree no one would have, but I think anyone would have struggled to have done a worse job.


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## User62651 (May 24, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Agree on your points on TM though. Completely hypocritical of her to cite compromise in her leaving speech when she spent years avoiding it. Will be the same issues with her successor. For the sake of progress *I hope it's a hard Leaver* just to move things along. There's other issues in this country we need to talk about.
		
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Think I now agree there, they've sniped and snarled and frustrated from the fringes for so long one of them needs to take the reins and put their money where there mouth is, be that Baker, Johnson, Raab although I dont believe Johnson is a true leaver. If they dont they'll have Farage to deal with, current score Farage 2 Prime Ministers 0.
Keen to see what Gove does, he has flip flopped a bit like Labour to try and stay onside with everyone but I think that'll prove damaging.  

As for May the job was always beyond her imo. Dont like to see the lady in tears but it's a tough job. Ultimately a leader MUST inspire, she never did. Trouble is who inspires from the potential replacements?...............


.....................still thinking...


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You know Doon having not posted anything here for nearly four months itâ€™s really dispiriting and rather sad that when I post something on my voting yesterday the first and immediate responses I get from the camp of the usual suspects are as sneeringly and condescendingly dismissive as they were to my posting four months ago.  How sad.
		
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On the other hand, aren't you pleased to note the consistency?


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## Hacker Khan (May 24, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Think I now agree there, they've sniped and snarled and frustrated from the fringes for so long one of them needs to take the reins and put their money where there mouth is, be that Baker, Johnson, Raab although I dont believe Johnson is a true leaver. If they dont they'll have Farage to deal with, current score Farage 2 Prime Ministers 0.
Keen to see what Gove does, he has flip flopped a bit like Labour to try and stay onside with everyone but I think that'll prove damaging. 

As for May the job was always beyond her imo. Dont like to see the lady in tears but it's a tough job. Ultimately a leader MUST inspire, she never did. *Trouble is who inspires from the potential replacements?...............*


.....................still thinking...

Click to expand...

I'm sure there are a few who will inspire the Little Engenders who mostly make up the conservative party members.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2019)

jp5 said:



			It's a damning indictment of our democracy that a group of 100,000 people will decide the direction of our country. Whenever a PM resigns, independent of their party, by default there should be a General Election.

Agree on your points on TM though. Completely hypocritical of her to cite compromise in her leaving speech when she spent years avoiding it. Will be the same issues with her successor. For the sake of progress I hope it's a hard Leaver just to move things along. There's other issues in this country we need to talk about.
		
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Crocodile tears, remember this woman's history as Home Office minister and PM.
Universal Credit, Windrush, child poverty, Grenfell etc etc.

She should be shedding tears for her victims.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2019)

One more thing...........the dancing


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2019)

jp5 said:



			It's a damning indictment of our democracy that a group of 100,000 people will decide the direction of our country...
		
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Er...What 100,000 people is this?


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er...What 100,000 people is this?
		
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The Tory party members.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 24, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			We'll never know if Theresa May could have been a good PM, in my opinion. I highly doubt any PM would have done better with the car crash that is Brexit. We had the weaker negotiating position and there was no way the EU were ever going to screw themselves over in those negotiations. No one would have been able to get the all-singing deal that some think she could have. *But we all need someone to blame, I guess, and for Brexiteers it will never be themselves for putting the government in an unwinnable position.*

Click to expand...

This was actually one of your better posts until you spoiled it by having the unnecessary pointless dig at the end


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## User62651 (May 24, 2019)

So is MV4 formally cancelled now then?  The deal is actually dead and not Jon Snow dead?

Quick look I see it takes minimum 3 months of Conservative membership to get a vote in any Tory member issue, wise move or a lot of people would've readily spent Â£25 to join and have a say between the last 2 candidates.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So is MV4 formally cancelled now then?  The deal is actually dead and not Jon Snow dead?

Quick look I see it takes minimum 3 months of Conservative membership to get a vote in any Tory member issue, wise move or a lot of people would've readily spent Â£25 to join and have a say between the last 2 candidates.
		
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Probably a lesson well learned after the debacle caused by Harriet Harmon and cheap Labour membership that allowed Corbyn to win through. Don't forget though, the last election did not even reach the members. It was done and dusted between the MP's and the members had no say. Could that happen again?

MV4, yes, deader than dead. Deader than (don't want to spoil it for anyone who still hasn't seen the final episode on catch up) a very dead person.


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			The Tory party members.
		
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I trust that both you and jp5 realise that, unlike Labour, it's not Tory party members that elect their leader! It's Tory MPs that elect 'their leader'!

That, imo, is why Labour is at a distinct disadvantage. Tories elect the person they believe will most likely win the election, while Labour, where Union bloc voting still counts a huge amount, elect the candidate most closely aligned to their 'philosophy' (aka Corbyn currently and 'the wrong Milliband' before him)!

So not 100,000! It's actually 300!


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## ger147 (May 24, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So is MV4 formally cancelled now then?  The deal is actually dead and not Jon Snow dead?

Quick look I see it takes minimum 3 months of Conservative membership to get a vote in any Tory member issue, wise move or a lot of people would've readily spent Â£25 to join and have a say between the last 2 candidates.
		
Click to expand...

Depends on who the next PM is...


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## ger147 (May 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I trust that both you and jp5 realise that, unlike Labour, it's not Tory party members that elect their leader! It's Tory MPs that elect 'their leader'!

That, imo, is why Labour is at a distinct disadvantage. Tories elect the person they believe will most likely win the election, while Labour, where Union bloc voting still counts a huge amount, elect the candidate most closely aligned to their 'philosophy' (aka Corbyn currently and 'the wrong Milliband' before him)!
		
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Afraid you're wrong in this one. The MP's get it down to 2 candidates then the Tory party membership vote on the 2 remaining candidates.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm sure there are a few who will inspire the Little Engenders who mostly make up the conservative party members. 

Click to expand...

Little Engenders?


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## Bunkermagnet (May 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I trust that both you and jp5 realise that, unlike Labour, it's not Tory party members that elect their leader! It's Tory MPs that elect 'their leader'!

That, imo, is why Labour is at a distinct disadvantage. Tories elect the person they believe will most likely win the election, while Labour, where Union bloc voting still counts a huge amount, elect the candidate most closely aligned to their 'philosophy' (aka Corbyn currently and 'the wrong Milliband' before him)!
		
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Well, it's the Tory grandees and 1922 Commitee that decide more things Tory, along with help from members of the Bullingdon club.
 Your average blue rinser has no real say despite whats said.


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Afraid you're wrong in this one. The MP's get it down to 2 candidates then the Tory party membership vote on the 2 remaining candidates.
		
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Good point! I'd forgotten that!

But the Parliamentary 'wing' have the major say, not the general Party members! And, if my memory serves me correctly, there's often a 'concession' - this was how May was elected, though Cameron won via the 'whole party' vote.


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Well, it's the Tory grandees and 1922 Commitee that decide more things Tory, along with help from members of the Bullingdon club.
Your average blue rinser has no real say despite whats said.

Click to expand...

H'mm! IYO!

But we, sort of, agree somewhat....Conservative election process is performed with the idea of 'who will get/keep us in power' uppermost! And that's an entirely reasonable atitude to take imo!


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## ger147 (May 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Good point! I'd forgotten that!

But the Parliamentary 'wing' have the major say, not the general Party members! And, if my memory serves me correctly, there's often a 'concession' - this was how May was elected, though Cameron won via the 'whole party' vote.
		
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May was the first "coronation" of a Tory leader since the rules changed to the current system of electing a leader.


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## Bunkermagnet (May 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm! IYO!

But we, sort of, agree somewhat....Conservative election process is performed with the idea of 'who will get/keep us in power' uppermost! And that's an entirely reasonable atitude to take imo!
		
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Isn't that though why we are in this horrendous mess?
 Rather than doing whats best for "them" and their political dogma and mantra, how about whats doing whats best for the country?

ps...I have no knowledge of what "IYO" means


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## Tashyboy (May 24, 2019)

I see President Macron of France Urges " swift clarification " on Brexit now Theresa May has failed.  Eh, where's he been for the last three year. Well Macron al give you swift clarificaction on one thing. Macron "Le twat". Hope that's swift enough.


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## jp5 (May 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I see President Macron of France Urges " swift clarification " on Brexit now Theresa May has failed.  Eh, where's he been for the last three year. Well Macron al give you swift clarificaction on one thing. Macron "Le twat". Hope that's swift enough.
		
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Very helpful.

Meanwhile Merkel will have outlasted 4 UK Prime Ministers. So much for our strong and stable government!


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## Grant85 (May 24, 2019)

Absolutely no sympathy for Theresa May. She put herself in the position of PM, she triggered A50, she talked herself into the incompatible red lines, she chose to have an election in 2017 and she stuck with the doomed strategy of going for the withdrawal agreement 1st, rather than getting a much greater indication / mandate from parliament about what it would support. And then stuck at that strategy when it was clear it didn't have support. 

In short, a complete and utter disaster for her personally, for the government and ultimately for the country - especially those who want to leave the EU. 

My guess is that a new PM, likely a more brexity person, will try and get No Deal through parliament. Probably they won't be able to do so. They might then have a GE and be even more brexity than Farage et al. Possibly win a reasonable majority if they can convince the leavers that supporting them is the best way to go - and possibly to take advantage of a fractured opposition. Maybe they will then be able to get No deal through, or at least put a few bullets in the No deal gun that will get the EU to surrender. My guess is the EU are very well prepared for such a strategy, as they must have thought it will materialise at some point.  

As a strategy I think it's the only one they would have and if the EU hold firm or there is enough opposition to such a strategy, then they are basically back where we are today.


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## JamesR (May 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I see President Macron of France Urges " swift clarification " on Brexit now Theresa May has failed.  Eh, where's he been for the last three year. Well Macron al give you swift clarificaction on one thing. Macron "Le twat". Hope that's swift enough.
		
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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm going to need some clarification (doesn't have to be swift) as to what the hell this means  ?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Absolutely no sympathy for Theresa May. She put herself in the position of PM, she triggered A50, she talked herself into the incompatible red lines, she chose to have an election in 2017 and she stuck with the doomed strategy of going for the withdrawal agreement 1st, rather than getting a much greater indication / mandate from parliament about what it would support. And then stuck at that strategy when it was clear it didn't have support.

In short, a complete and utter disaster for her personally, for the government and ultimately for the country - especially those who want to leave the EU.

My guess is that a new PM, likely a more brexity person, will try and get No Deal through parliament. Probably they won't be able to do so. They might then have a GE and be even more brexity than Farage et al. Possibly win a reasonable majority if they can convince the leavers that supporting them is the best way to go - and possibly to take advantage of a fractured opposition. Maybe they will then be able to get No deal through, or at least put a few bullets in the No deal gun that will get the EU to surrender. My guess is the EU are very well prepared for such a strategy, as they must have thought it will materialise at some point. 

As a strategy I think it's the only one they would have and if the EU hold firm or there is enough opposition to such a strategy, then they are basically back where we are today.
		
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Theresa May was actually morally obliged to trigger Article 50. Maybe some of her other decisions could have been better advised but there is no doubting her commitment to the job and for that I admire her. 

As for No Deal, bring it on! The Eurocrats think they can bully us into agreeing to whatever they want but if we play hard ball we will end up with a much better outcome.


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## IanM (May 24, 2019)

They hardly want to throw out one of the few net contributors and a major destination for THEIR exports....


...ooh, shame that the Tory Negotiators didn't operate like they knew this.   But I've made my views on the reasons why pretty clear on these pages.  Still not changing my mind....  although now wondering if new Tory Leader will be different.  Although the Remain Parliament need some changes.  I wonder if the result of the Euro elections will change any of their minds?


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## Tashyboy (May 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I don't know about anyone else, but I'm going to need some clarification (doesn't have to be swift) as to what the hell this means  ?
		
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Macron would like a swift clarification. Who wouldnâ€™t. Was it lost on Macron that we shouldn't of been voting yesterday. Was it lost on Macron that the deal the EU including him offered was part of the reason we are in this shower of shit mess. Was it not lost on Macron that we have been in this mess for three years because people like him cannot accept democracy. I stand by my comment. He is le twat


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## JamesR (May 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			... Was it not lost on Macron that we have been in this mess for three years because people like him cannot accept democracy...
		
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I donâ€™t remember Macron having anything to do with what the Tories or HoCâ€™s have done.
This whole mess is of the UKâ€™s making. The French didnâ€™t hold the referendum or invoke article 50.

A little misplaced antagonism


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## Grant85 (May 24, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Theresa May was actually morally obliged to trigger Article 50. Maybe some of her other decisions could have been better advised but there is no doubting her commitment to the job and for that I admire her.

As for No Deal, bring it on! The Eurocrats think they can bully us into agreeing to whatever they want but if we play hard ball we will end up with a much better outcome.
		
Click to expand...

No, she was politically obliged to trigger A50 as she was a remain voter, she did everything she could to make sure no one could accuse her of trying to slow things down or not do enough to progress Brexit.

Ultimately she did this without a plan, or certainly not one she was in control of. She then made the glaring error of holding another election (during the A50 2 year period) and failed to win a mandate for anything.

She will be remembered as a complete failure of a PM and Conservative leader, has left both party and country in a far worse position. Her legacy may be getting dressed up as a patriotic and tearful miscalculation today, but I'm sure it will look a lot worse on Monday when people survey the wreckage of the European results, from a Tory point of view at least.

In terms of your No Deal rallying cry. If you think this is a serious option then you are even more daft than the retiring PM. To her credit, at least this is a road she realised was not one that any sane person could go down.
Those calling for No Deal don't have a clue and the EU know any person in a position of power who makes such noises are bluffing.


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## Kellfire (May 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Macron would like a swift clarification. Who wouldnâ€™t. Was it lost on Macron that we shouldn't of been voting yesterday. Was it lost on Macron that the deal the EU including him offered was part of the reason we are in this shower of shit mess. Was it not lost on Macron that we have been in this mess for three years because people like him cannot accept democracy. I stand by my comment. He is le twat
		
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Ah, so Macron and the rest of the EU should just give us everything we want at their expense, or be held to account for this country's woes?


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## Tashyboy (May 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I donâ€™t remember Macron having anything to do with what the Tories or HoCâ€™s have done.
This whole mess is of the UKâ€™s making. The French didnâ€™t hold the referendum or invoke article 50.

A little misplaced antagonism
		
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Your naivety on here is refreshing. ðŸ‘

The whole mess is the UKs
?. The fact the referendum proved people wanted out was proved correct


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## Grant85 (May 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Your naivety on here is refreshing. ðŸ‘

The whole mess is the UKs
?. *The fact the referendum proved people wanted out was proved correct*

Click to expand...

I'll take this one. 

Leave won because Leave could be all things to all men / women. There was no plan or picture of what Leave would look like. No idea of what we would negotiate from the EU. No prospectus about what our priorities would even be in said negotiation. 

Ultimately, had such a detailed plan been put in place - I'm fairly certain that at least (but probably a lot more) the required 635,000 would have voted differently. 

For example, if it had been made explicitly clear prior to the referendum that you can't get out of Free Movement without casting NI adrift... would leave have won? 
If it had been made clear that upon leaving the UK will remain in a customs union with the EU... would leave have won? 
If it had been made clear that leaving the EU means a No Deal Brexit and WTO terms... would leave have won? 

All of these are realistic scenarios that could still play out, and yet people are quite happy to crow about the democratic mandate of 17m. Only 635,000 of whom would have to have been put off by the eventual thing that happens for the mandate to crumble into dust.* Remember 3 million EU citizens living, working and paying tax here were not allowed to vote*. And then we are in a situation where a majority do not want what has happened, and that is not going to be a pleasant situation to govern / do business / trade with. As the whole thing will be on a knife edge until the next election, the next referendum, the next change in the lay of the land. 

The only way Brexit can succeed is if there is a clear appetite for it for a clear and sustained majority of the population.


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## JamesR (May 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Your naivety on here is refreshing. ðŸ‘

The whole mess is the UKs
?. The fact the referendum proved people wanted out was proved correct
		
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...and Macron has stopped us from leaving?


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## Hobbit (May 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'll take this one.

Leave won because Leave could be all things to all men / women. There was no plan or picture of what Leave would look like. No idea of what we would negotiate from the EU. No prospectus about what our priorities would even be in said negotiation.

Ultimately, had such a detailed plan been put in place - I'm fairly certain that at least (but probably a lot more) the required 635,000 would have voted differently.

For example, if it had been made explicitly clear prior to the referendum that you can't get out of Free Movement without casting NI adrift... would leave have won?
If it had been made clear that upon leaving the UK will remain in a customs union with the EU... would leave have won?
If it had been made clear that leaving the EU means a No Deal Brexit and WTO terms... would leave have won?

All of these are realistic scenarios that could still play out, and yet people are quite happy to crow about the democratic mandate of 17m. Only 635,000 of whom would have to have been put off by the eventual thing that happens for the mandate to crumble into dust.* Remember 3 million EU citizens living, working and paying tax here were not allowed to vote*. And then we are in a situation where a majority do not want what has happened, and that is not going to be a pleasant situation to govern / do business / trade with. As the whole thing will be on a knife edge until the next election, the next referendum, the next change in the lay of the land.

The only way Brexit can succeed is if there is a clear appetite for it for a clear and sustained majority of the population.
		
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Just picking out a few bit.

Free movement; I'm not sure all Leavers saw the ending free movement as their complete reason to vote Leave.
Customs union; this one is often trotted out. Just about every single politician made it very clear the a vote for Leave meant out of the single market and out of the customs union.
No Deal and WTO; again, plenty of people were aware of WTO, though not the detail, and plenty took on board the constant barrage of out of the single market and customs union touted by the politicians.

And you're right, it only needed 635,000 to be swayed the other way. As for the Europeans that couldn't vote, you can also add in over 1,000,000 expats around the world who have a vested interest in the outcome. Many wanted to vote, and I believe should have been entitled to vote. Many of them are retired, and after paying upwards of 50 years income tax they rely on the ease of pensions transfer/exchange rate and reciprocal healthcare agreements. Some of those, like myself, because of the pension coming from govt backed industry, the NHS, still pay taxes in the UK.

But all of the above relies on what ifs and what about. After 3 years we are passed dissecting numbers to satisfy an argument that relies on what ifs. Its the tomorrows that will resolve this mess, not the yesterdays.


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			The only way Brexit can succeed is if there is a clear appetite for it for a clear and sustained majority of the population.
		
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And there's me thinking that's what voting was all about, it appears it about guessing, well if you don't agree with the result it is.

Another remainer telling me why I voted the way I did, got to love and admire the insite of the fella.


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## Paperboy (May 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'll take this one. 

Leave won because Leave could be all things to all men / women. There was no plan or picture of what Leave would look like. No idea of what we would negotiate from the EU. No prospectus about what our priorities would even be in said negotiation. 

Ultimately, had such a detailed plan been put in place - I'm fairly certain that at least (but probably a lot more) the required 635,000 would have voted differently. 

For example, if it had been made explicitly clear prior to the referendum that you can't get out of Free Movement without casting NI adrift... would leave have won? 
If it had been made clear that upon leaving the UK will remain in a customs union with the EU... would leave have won? 
If it had been made clear that leaving the EU means a No Deal Brexit and WTO terms... would leave have won? 

All of these are realistic scenarios that could still play out, and yet people are quite happy to crow about the democratic mandate of 17m. Only 635,000 of whom would have to have been put off by the eventual thing that happens for the mandate to crumble into dust.* Remember 3 million EU citizens living, working and paying tax here were not allowed to vote*. And then we are in a situation where a majority do not want what has happened, and that is not going to be a pleasant situation to govern / do business / trade with. As the whole thing will be on a knife edge until the next election, the next referendum, the next change in the lay of the land. 

The only way Brexit can succeed is if there is a clear appetite for it for a clear and sustained majority of the population.
		
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A bit like the Scottish referendum. Only people living in Scotland got a vote. I know a lot of people who would have helped the SNP in England if they had got a vote.

So just like the EU citizens here.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I don't know about anyone else, but I'm going to need some clarification (doesn't have to be swift) as to what the hell this means  ?
		
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Tashy's on the sauce again.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I know it was a fishing trip but...we never vote for a PM, we vote for a local MP. TM is leader of a political party, who replaces her is for those in that party. That person will at least have been voted for by their local constituents so they are democratically elected. ?
		
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Not so sure that is one hundred per cent true. It is the case that the last two standing are the candidates from which the victor will be the leader; and that that the party countrywide chooses which of those two it will be.
However, it is the Parliamentary party alone-the Tory MPs-who choose who those two will be.
So, as at this time, it is widely reported and regarded that the Tory  party members would choose Boris as the next PM, but I doubt he will get to be one of the last two. The Tory MPs will ensure that.
 Suppose there are three left to vote for, one being Boris. It is believed that the MPs will vote Boris into third place regardless as to who the other two are, knowing full well what their constituents want, but ignoring it.
Thus, once again, the arrogance of those Westminster occupants overrides the will of the people. It may be the rules of the Tory party, but it's hardly the fact that the leader is "democratically elected"


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## Tashyboy (May 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			...and Macron has stopped us from leaving?
		
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I think the one like from Doon proves a point ðŸ‘


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## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I think the one like from Doon proves a point ðŸ‘
		
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..and we are still awaiting clarification.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			No, she was politically obliged to trigger A50 as she was a remain voter, she did everything she could to make sure no one could accuse her of trying to slow things down or not do enough to progress Brexit.

Ultimately she did this without a plan, or certainly not one she was in control of. She then made the glaring error of holding another election (during the A50 2 year period) and failed to win a mandate for anything.

She will be remembered as a complete failure of a PM and Conservative leader, has left both party and country in a far worse position. Her legacy may be getting dressed up as a patriotic and tearful miscalculation today, but I'm sure it will look a lot worse on Monday when people survey the wreckage of the European results, from a Tory point of view at least.

In terms of your No Deal rallying cry. If you think this is a serious option then you are even more daft than the retiring PM. To her credit, at least this is a road she realised was not one that any sane person could go down.
Those calling for No Deal don't have a clue and the EU know any person in a position of power who makes such noises are bluffing.
		
Click to expand...

Those calling for no deal actually DO have a clue. The EU needs us more than we need them. Research your facts on exports, imports, financial contributions etc.


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## JamesR (May 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I think the one like from Doon proves a point ðŸ‘
		
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What, that youâ€™re posting crap because youâ€™re pissed?
Probably!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 24, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Those calling for no deal actually DO have a clue. The EU needs us more than we need them. Research your facts on exports, imports, financial contributions etc.
		
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I thought there was zero chance of no deal now with the votes of the HoC etc ? Or have I just lost track of whatâ€™s happening. 

Seems to me itâ€™s either the deal or another referendum or just cancel ? Either way just looks a complete mess and a change of PM wonâ€™t change a thing.


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## spongebob59 (May 24, 2019)

Back  o n planet EU......


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## Tashyboy (May 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			What, that youâ€™re posting crap because youâ€™re pissed?
Probably!
		
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JamesR said:



			What, that youâ€™re posting crap because youâ€™re pissed?
Probably!
		
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JamesR said:



			What, that youâ€™re posting crap because youâ€™re pissed?
Probably!
		
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looking after grandkids and alcohol don't mix. Don't look at the last post 9845 though James coz that don't fit your remit that it's all to do with the U.K.


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## Fade and Die (May 24, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'll take this one.

Leave won because Leave could be all things to all men / women. There was no plan or picture of what Leave would look like. No idea of what we would negotiate from the EU. No prospectus about what our priorities would even be in said negotiation.

Ultimately, had such a detailed plan been put in place - I'm fairly certain that at least (but probably a lot more) the required 635,000 would have voted differently.

For example, if it had been made explicitly clear prior to the referendum that you can't get out of Free Movement without casting NI adrift... would leave have won?
If it had been made clear that upon leaving the UK will remain in a customs union with the EU... would leave have won?
If it had been made clear that leaving the EU means a No Deal Brexit and WTO terms... would leave have won?

All of these are realistic scenarios that could still play out, and yet people are quite happy to crow about the democratic mandate of 17m. Only 635,000 of whom would have to have been put off by the eventual thing that happens for the mandate to crumble into dust.* Remember 3 million EU citizens living, working and paying tax here were not allowed to vote*. And then we are in a situation where a majority do not want what has happened, and that is not going to be a pleasant situation to govern / do business / trade with. As the whole thing will be on a knife edge until the next election, the next referendum, the next change in the lay of the land.

The only way Brexit can succeed *is if there is a clear appetite* for it for a clear and sustained majority of the population.
		
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If if if if (my auntie had bollocks?) thanks for the stereotype remainer post, telling us poor chumps why we voted the way we did. ðŸ‘
You, and Cameron and May are hopelessly misreading the mood of the nation, and as for the highlighted bit, I think you are going to get your answer in spades by Sunday Night.


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## Foxholer (May 24, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Isn't that though why we are in this horrendous mess?
Rather than doing whats best for "them" and their political dogma and mantra, how about whats doing whats best for the country?

ps...I have no knowledge of what "IYO" means

Click to expand...

I'm pretty certain that's exactly what they believe they are doing!

ps..Have a think. It's not too far different from I*M*O!


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## JamesR (May 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			looking after grandkids and alcohol don't mix. Don't look at the last post 9845 though James coz that don't fit your remit that it's all to do with the U.K.
		
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Put the bottle down Tashy, youâ€™re making no sense at all.


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## Tashyboy (May 24, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Ah, so Macron and the rest of the EU should just give us everything we want at their expense, or be held to account for this country's woes? 

Click to expand...

Is that your suggestion, coz it wasn't mine or anyone else's on here.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Those calling for no deal actually DO have a clue. The EU needs us more than we need them. Research your facts on exports, imports, financial contributions etc.
		
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But we never voted for No Deal.


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Those calling for no deal actually DO have a clue. The EU needs us more than we need them. Research your facts on exports, imports, financial contributions etc.
		
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Taking that off the table as a negotiating tool handed all the aces to the EU.


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## Hobbit (May 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But we never voted for No Deal.
		
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You keep repeating this Paul. The vote was in/out, and was very much reinforced by all the major politicians saying a vote to Leave meant leaving the single market and the customs union. The expectation was the EU would want a deal. The UK has the money that the EU desperately need. As for the balance of trade that so many Remainers say is skewed in favour of the EU as they can take the hit. What many don't look at is which countries within the EU the UK does the majority of its trade with.

The skewing that many use in defence of a warped view on the balance of trade seems to accurately miss the point that although there are 27 other countries in the EU, the vast majority of trade gets done with very few of that 27.


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## JamesR (May 24, 2019)

Lots of leave campaigners mentioned  different potential outcomes, but  when push comes to shove, the vote was stay or leave, with no details as to the method.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But we never voted for No Deal.
		
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 Didnt we? I don't recall being told we would do a deal to leave ,if the vote went that way!
We voted to leave. When you leave somewhere that you are a member of, you leave.What golf club , or other club, have you left ,where you were expected to do a deal, or come to some arrangement that the club would give their approval to ,before you were allowed to leave.? 
The majority voted to leave. The government should have made the arrangements to do that ,without involving Parliament (the referendum should override MP's wishes, because the voting rights have, in such an instance, been taken from that small body and given to the whole country, by definition.

But the government were not strong or honourable enough to do that, hence the mess that got created and which now ,like a glutinous spiders web, is strangling any meaningful action on Brexit.

The new leader needs to remind everyone that this country said "leave" and that is what it is going to do. End of.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Didnt we? I don't recall being told we would do a deal to leave ,if the vote went that way!
We voted to leave. When you leave somewhere that you are a member of, you leave.What golf club , or other club, have you left ,where you were expected to do a deal, or come to some arrangement that the club would give their approval to ,before you were allowed to leave.?
The majority voted to leave. The government should have made the arrangements to do that ,without involving Parliament (the referendum should override MP's wishes, because the voting rights have, in such an instance, been taken from that small body and given to the whole country, by definition.

But the government were not strong or honourable enough to do that, hence the mess that got created and which now ,like a glutinous spiders web, is strangling any meaningful action on Brexit.

The new leader needs to remind everyone that this country said "leave" and that is what it is going to do. End of.
		
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But yet the Leave literature told us we would leave with a deal, never mentioned No Deal.


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## robinthehood (May 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But yet the Leave literature told us we would leave with a deal, never mentioned No Deal. 

View attachment 27385

Click to expand...

Yes the easiest deal ever or some guff. But tbf the balot paper was in or out


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes the easiest deal ever or some guff. But tbf the balot paper was in or out
		
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Yes I know, I voted Leave, but my vote was on the basis weâ€™d leave in an orderley fashion once we were happy with â€œaâ€ deal, not crash out overnight, stamping our feet with nothing in place.
If itâ€™s to be a â€œNo Dealâ€ then we should be giving the EU the date we leave, not them dictating dates to us.


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## 2blue (May 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes the easiest deal ever or some guff. But tbf the balot paper was in or out
		
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And how do you handle NI??


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## robinthehood (May 24, 2019)

2blue said:



			And how do you handle NI??
		
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I pay it monthly


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2019)

2blue said:



			And how do you handle NI??
		
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robinthehood said:



			I pay it monthly
		
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robinthehood said:



*You only have to look at the replies to* other *threads* about climate change *to see people on here* couldn't care less and *would prefer to try and be smart arses *.
		
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Hoist by your own petard.


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## chrisd (May 25, 2019)

All of the discussion as to what we thought we were going to do as a deal didn't, in my opinion, take into account that

The leave process would be cocked up by a remain Prime Minister

That a majority of MP'S would do their best to undermine the process either for personal gain and often against the wish of their constituents who the abrogated the decision making to.

That we would have an opposition party who would only use the issue to try and force a general election for their own ends and would make their own "red lines" unacceptable, as it would have meant leaving in name only but would mean that they didn't need to co-operate with the Government for the benefit of the Country

If anyone is in any doubt what we were voting for just search Utube for David Cameron's speech where, before the vote, he gave details of what leaving meant including the single market and the customs union - it left no doubt in my mind what I was voting for when I ambled down to vote!


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## robinthehood (May 25, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Hoist by your own petard.
		
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ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
Top marks for making the effort to stalk me in other threads  and trying  to be both smart And funny .


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## robinthehood (May 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			All of the discussion as to what we thought we were going to do as a deal didn't, in my opinion, take into account that

The leave process would be cocked up by a remain Prime Minister

That a majority of MP'S would do their best to undermine the process either for personal gain and often against the wish of their constituents who the abrogated the decision making to.

That we would have an opposition party who would only use the issue to try and force a general election for their own ends and would make their own "red lines" unacceptable, as it would have meant leaving in name only but would mean that they didn't need to co-operate with the Government for the benefit of the Country

If anyone is in any doubt what we were voting for just search Utube for David Cameron's speech where, before the vote, he gave details of what leaving meant including the single market and the customs union - it left no doubt in my mind what I was voting for when I ambled down to vote!
		
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All good , but when you have the likes of fox  ,raab,  gove  etc  telling us all how easy it would be ,you can't be surprised that people believe them.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
Top marks for making the effort to stalk me in other threads  and trying  to be both smart And funny .
		
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You mean like you've done to me in the past?


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## robinthehood (May 25, 2019)

drive4show said:



			You mean like you've done to me in the past?
		
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ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
I don't even know who you are. But sure if you feel  hard done by then crack on.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
I don't even know who you are. But sure if you feel  hard done by then crack on.
		
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I don't but if you're going to give it out then expect to get it back.


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## robinthehood (May 25, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I don't but if you're going to give it out then expect to get it back.
		
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ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
Clearly you do , other wise why go to the effort eh. 
ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜…ðŸ˜†ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜…ðŸ˜…ðŸ˜†ðŸ˜†ðŸ˜†ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
Clearly you do , other wise why go to the effort eh.
ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜…ðŸ˜†ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜…ðŸ˜…ðŸ˜†ðŸ˜†ðŸ˜†ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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No actually I'm really not interested in some random stranger on an Internet forum that thinks it's clever trying to wind other people up. I have more important things in my life.


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## robinthehood (May 25, 2019)

drive4show said:



			No actually I'm really not interested in some random stranger on an Internet forum that thinks it's clever trying to wind other people up. I have more important things in my life.
		
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But you made the effort this morning anyway though.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			All of the discussion as to what we thought we were going to do as a deal didn't, in my opinion, take into account that

The leave process would be cocked up by a remain Prime Minister

That a majority of MP'S would do their best to undermine the process either for personal gain and often against the wish of their constituents who the abrogated the decision making to.

That we would have an opposition party who would only use the issue to try and force a general election for their own ends and would make their own "red lines" unacceptable, as it would have meant leaving in name only but would mean that they didn't need to co-operate with the Government for the benefit of the Country

If anyone is in any doubt what we were voting for just search Utube for David Cameron's speech where, before the vote, he gave details of what leaving meant including the single market and the customs union - it left no doubt in my mind what I was voting for when I ambled down to vote!
		
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Iâ€™m in no way changing sides and we can all, with hindsight, find examples of what was and wasnâ€™t promised, using Camerons speech to support what it meant to vote no holds no water for me, that speech was in support of remain and at the time was ridiculed and dismissed as part of Project Fear, the problem now and then was that Remain and Leave meant so many different things to different people.

If itâ€™s to be a No Deal, then announce it properly, decent timelines, not simply arguing up to a date in the calendar, be honest with the Public as to were the genuine concerns are, and, how we are going to plan for these concerns, look at TMâ€™s feeble attempts for a No Deal scenario and the millions it has cost us in wasted contracts and Companies suing the Government.

Thereâ€™s no way we can know if a No Deal would be bad for a day, week, month etc etc, but there are plans that can be discussed openly and honestly.

Furthermore, there should be legislation brought in that any MP, regardless of Party, would be prosecuted if they are found to be any making any financial gain from a No Deal scenario.


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## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Furthermore, there should be legislation brought in that any MP, regardless of Party, would be prosecuted if they are found to be any making any financial gain from a No Deal scenario.
		
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While I don't disagree with the concept of this, wouldn't we also need to bring in legislation for any MP that is making financial gains from Remaining? 

EDIT - that is assuming that we don't actually leave.
EDIT 2 - it would also have to be a very carefully worded piece of legislation. For instance what about a case where an MP who has strongly campaigned for Remain turns out to have profited in the event of No Deal?


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## chrisd (May 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m in no way changing sides and we can all, with hindsight, find examples of what was and wasnâ€™t promised, using Camerons speech to support what it meant to vote no holds no water for me, that speech was in support of remain and at the time was ridiculed and dismissed as part of Project Fear, the problem now and then was that Remain and Leave meant so many different things to different people.

If itâ€™s to be a No Deal, then announce it properly, decent timelines, not simply arguing up to a date in the calendar, be honest with the Public as to were the genuine concerns are, and, how we are going to plan for these concerns, look at TMâ€™s feeble attempts for a No Deal scenario and the millions it has cost us in wasted contracts and Companies suing the Government.

Thereâ€™s no way we can know if a No Deal would be bad for a day, week, month etc etc, but there are plans that can be discussed openly and honestly.

Furthermore, there should be legislation brought in that any MP, regardless of Party, would be prosecuted if they are found to be any making any financial gain from a No Deal scenario.
		
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But Paul, my point is that Cameron stated clearly and unambiguously before the vote that leaving the EU meant leaving the customs union and the single market and, knowing that still led to an out vote. No one wants a "no deal" if a good deal is to be had but anyone who's ever negotiated a deal has always had to have a back stop eg the ability to walk away if the deal is not good enough, and only a fool would willingly say that their backstop is not for real during the discussions. I hope that the new PM will tear up Mrs May's deal and insist on a new and better deal or we really will go for no deal with no Â£39 billion payment


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## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But Paul, my point is that Cameron stated clearly and unambiguously before the vote that leaving the EU meant leaving the customs union and the single market and, knowing that still led to an out vote. No one wants a "no deal" if a good deal is to be had but anyone who's ever negotiated a deal has always had to have a back stop eg the ability to walk away if the deal is not good enough, and only a fool would willingly say that their backstop is not for real during the discussions. I hope that the new PM will tear up Mrs May's deal and insist on a new and better deal or *we really will go for no deal with no Â£39 billion payment*

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I'm not sure the part in bold would be a wise move, if we are looking to do new deals with other countries around the world. Much of that money will be what we owe for things like agreed funding for projects and future pension contributions etc. It wouldn't look good if we defaulted on those debts.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But Paul, my point is that Cameron stated clearly and unambiguously before the vote that leaving the EU meant leaving the customs union and the single market and, knowing that still led to an out vote. No one wants a "no deal" if a good deal is to be had but anyone who's ever negotiated a deal has always had to have a back stop eg the ability to walk away if the deal is not good enough, and only a fool would willingly say that their backstop is not for real during the discussions. I hope that the new PM will tear up Mrs May's deal and insist on a new and better deal or we really will go for no deal with no Â£39 billion payment
		
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Cameron was giving his vision of what Leave meant to him, his was laughed at and shot down, now youâ€™re suggesting we should accept he was right.
This is also the man who refused to let Government Departments prepare for a no vote and why ever since the EU have an upper hand.
Iâ€™ve got no issue with a Government using the â€œNo Dealâ€ scenario as a statement of fact if prepared properly, but imo, itâ€™s used as a willy waving concept.
We need to stop, start again and Leave properly without the EU dictating it all.
Like these elections on thursday, why didnâ€™t we simply say, â€œNo, weâ€™re taking part as we are leavingâ€ end of.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 25, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Hoist by your own petard.
		
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Come on, it's not that at all. It's just bringing a little good humour into a difficult subject. ðŸ˜€


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## Grant85 (May 25, 2019)

Paperboy said:



			A bit like the Scottish referendum. Only people living in Scotland got a vote. I know a lot of people who would have helped the SNP in England if they had got a vote.

So just like the EU citizens here.
		
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Only people living in Scotland got a vote, regardless of where you were born or if you had full citizenship or not. 

This was not the same criteria applied to EU referendum. Commonwalth citizens got a vote. Colleague of mine working here with an EU passport wasn't going to get the vote, but as he also has an SA passport he managed to apply to vote in the EU referendum. 

The Scottish referendum was a full franchise of everyone from 16 and over. A far more fair and inclusive franchise. So in fact nothing like the Scottish referendum.


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## Grant85 (May 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And there's me thinking that's what voting was all about, it appears it about guessing, well if you don't agree with the result it is.

Another remainer telling me why I voted the way I did, got to love and admire the insite of the fella.
		
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Specifically not telling you why you voted the way you did. Clearly there are a great many people who will vote leave under almsot any circumstances. But on a close result, you don't need to stretch the imagination to see that given how the Leave option has played out, with more information, a sizeable chunk of the 17 m would have thought about things differently.

And as I said, Brexit is simply not going to work without a good and clear majority in favour of it both at the polls and in their general view of things. The country will end up on a knife edge with the European question dominating politics and elections for the next decade or more.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Come on, it's not that at all. It's just bringing a little good humour into a difficult subject. ðŸ˜€
		
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Any comment on the the answer I gave you ref Leave Campaign?


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## Grant85 (May 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just picking out a few bit.

Free movement; I'm not sure all Leavers saw the ending free movement as their complete reason to vote Leave.
Customs union; this one is often trotted out. Just about every single politician made it very clear the a vote for Leave meant out of the single market and out of the customs union.
No Deal and WTO; again, plenty of people were aware of WTO, though not the detail, and plenty took on board the constant barrage of out of the single market and customs union touted by the politicians.

And you're right, it only needed 635,000 to be swayed the other way. As for the Europeans that couldn't vote, you can also add in over 1,000,000 expats around the world who have a vested interest in the outcome. Many wanted to vote, and I believe should have been entitled to vote. Many of them are retired, and after paying upwards of 50 years income tax they rely on the ease of pensions transfer/exchange rate and reciprocal healthcare agreements. Some of those, like myself, because of the pension coming from govt backed industry, the NHS, still pay taxes in the UK.

But all of the above relies on what ifs and what about. After 3 years we are passed dissecting numbers to satisfy an argument that relies on what ifs. Its the tomorrows that will resolve this mess, not the yesterdays.
		
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I'm sorry, but I don't share your view that people who have chosen to leave the country and live elsewhere are quite so entitled to vote as those who actually live and work here. 

In 2015, David Cameron won a majority that was on the basis of the electorate at that time (including EU citizens). He then had a referendum that included a smaller electorate. Doesn't make sense to me that this should have been allowed to happen. 

If you live here and pay your taxes here, you should get a vote.


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## Paperboy (May 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Only people living in Scotland got a vote, regardless of where you were born or if you had full citizenship or not. 

This was not the same criteria applied to EU referendum. Commonwalth citizens got a vote. Colleague of mine working here with an EU passport wasn't going to get the vote, but as he also has an SA passport he managed to apply to vote in the EU referendum. 

The Scottish referendum was a full franchise of everyone from 16 and over. A far more fair and inclusive franchise. So in fact nothing like the Scottish referendum.
		
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You said that it was unfair EU citizens didn't get a vote. So surely it's the same as Scotland leaving the U.K, it effects everyone in the Uk so why was everyone not given a vote?


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## chrisd (May 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Cameron was giving his vision of what Leave meant to him, his was laughed at and shot down, now youâ€™re suggesting we should accept he was right.
This is also the man who refused to let Government Departments prepare for a no vote and why ever since the EU have an upper hand.
Iâ€™ve got no issue with a Government using the â€œNo Dealâ€ scenario as a statement of fact if prepared properly, but imo, itâ€™s used as a willy waving concept.
We need to stop, start again and Leave properly without the EU dictating it all.
Like these elections on thursday, why didnâ€™t we simply say, â€œNo, weâ€™re taking part as we are leavingâ€ end of.
		
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If Cameron didn't understand what leave meant no one did, he specifically said that leave meant leaving the single market and the customs union - that speech was not during the  'project fear' campaign.The EU would not have the upper hand if we stated that no deal, and no payment, was our default policy but that we'd rather not use it.


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'm sorry, but I don't share your view that people who have chosen to leave the country and live elsewhere are quite so entitled to vote as those who actually live and work here.
...
		
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I agree! I'm an ex-pat Kiwi and was entitled to vote for quite a while after I came here - because I returned for a visit every couple of years. I haven't been back since Mum's funeral, so that (3 years) entitlement has lapsed. While I maintained, and still maintain, an interest in NZ politics, once I considered I was too far removed from the issues/arguments, I stopped voting, even though entitled.

I believe ex-pats should be allowed to vote in their home country elections for, and only for, a certain period! NZ's 3 year period, corresponds to the normal NZ election cycle and seems about right. As UK's 'normal' election cycle is 5 years, that would be fine. The current 15 years ability seems too much.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2019)

Paperboy said:



			You said that it was unfair EU citizens didn't get a vote. So surely it's the same as Scotland leaving the U.K, it effects everyone in the Uk so why was everyone not given a vote?
		
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To follow that train to thought, then all EU citizens should be able to vote to decide if EngWaland should be allowed leave the EU.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If Cameron didn't understand what leave meant no one did, he specifically said that leave meant leaving the single market and the customs union - that speech was not during the  'project fear' campaign.The EU would not have the upper hand if we stated that no deal, and no payment, was our default policy but that we'd rather not use it.
		
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But Cameron didnâ€™t believe heâ€™d lose, so him and his Government did nothing.
Itâ€™s hindsight Chris, a lot of mistakes have been made by a lot of people, none of them are willing to take responsibility and have walked away.
So we are at this point in time and I donâ€™t think any of us will be happy with the outcome, Iâ€™d rather take another couple of years and leave properly rather than this boom, bust, scaremongering, knee jerk reactions weâ€™re getting now.


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## Dando (May 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure the part in bold would be a wise move, if we are looking to do new deals with other countries around the world. Much of that money will be what we owe for things like agreed funding for projects and future pension contributions etc. It wouldn't look good if we defaulted on those debts.
		
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Isn't the Â£39bn ransom part of the withdrawal agreement?


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## chrisd (May 25, 2019)

Dando said:



			Isn't the Â£39bn ransom part of the withdrawal agreement?
		
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I'm pretty sure there isn't a justification for all of the money, I would agree that some is for pensions but I haven't seen any bill that totals Â£39b


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## Dando (May 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm pretty sure there isn't a justification for all of the money, I would agree that some is for pensions but I haven't seen any bill that totals Â£39b
		
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It does, as Abbott helped with the sums. She used all 87 of her fingers and 35 toes


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## chrisd (May 25, 2019)

Dando said:



			It does, as Abbott helped with the sums. She used all 87 of her fingers and 35 toes
		
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I knew there'd be a simple explanation ðŸ˜


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## Hobbit (May 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'm sorry, but I don't share your view that people who have chosen to leave the country and live elsewhere are quite so entitled to vote as those who actually live and work here.

In 2015, David Cameron won a majority that was on the basis of the electorate at that time (including EU citizens). He then had a referendum that included a smaller electorate. Doesn't make sense to me that this should have been allowed to happen.

If you live here and pay your taxes here, you should get a vote.
		
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I paid my taxes for 40 years and still pay taxes in the UK. Also, the decision to leave affects pensions and healthcare of those that have contributed. I believe they, and me, should be entitled to vote.



pauldj42 said:



			Cameron was giving his vision of what Leave meant to him, his was laughed at and shot down, now youâ€™re suggesting we should accept he was right.
This is also the man who refused to let Government Departments prepare for a no vote and why ever since the EU have an upper hand.
Iâ€™ve got no issue with a Government using the â€œNo Dealâ€ scenario as a statement of fact if prepared properly, but imo, itâ€™s used as a willy waving concept.
We need to stop, start again and Leave properly without the EU dictating it all.
Like these elections on thursday, why didnâ€™t we simply say, â€œNo, weâ€™re taking part as we are leavingâ€ end of.
		
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It wasn't just Cameron, it was senior politicians from all sides. I don't remember anyone laughing at him for saying leave the single market and the customs union.


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## Hobbit (May 25, 2019)

Dando said:



			Isn't the Â£39bn ransom part of the withdrawal agreement?
		
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Yes. The law lords ruled that it wasn't enforceable but the agreement was to honour it as it included shares of previously agreed projects/commitments and pensions. Also included in the agreement was the EU to pay the UK a share of the EU assets. Quite what the balance of payments is, who knows...


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Specifically not telling you why you voted the way you did. Clearly there are a great many people who will vote leave under almsot any circumstances. But on a close result, you don't need to stretch the imagination to see that given how the Leave option has played out, with more information, a sizeable chunk of the 17 m would have thought about things differently.

And as I said, Brexit is simply not going to work without a good and clear majority in favour of it both at the polls and in their general view of things. The country will end up on a knife edge with the European question dominating politics and elections for the next decade or more.
		
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All I understand now that I didn't understand at the referendum is what a poor bunch of politicians we have and the level of self deceit remainers are prepared to fall to convince themselves their view is above that of the majority.


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			All I understand now that I didn't understand at the referendum is what a poor bunch of politicians we have....
		
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Surely you were pretty much aware of that BEFORE the current chaos!


SocketRocket said:



			... and the level of self deceit remainers are prepared to fall to convince themselves their view is above that of *the majority*.
		
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So does that mean you'd be happy to have a 2nd referendum, confident that the result would be the same?


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			...
And as I said, Brexit is simply not going to work without a good and clear majority in favour of it both at the polls and in their general view of things. The country will end up on a knife edge with the European question dominating politics and elections for the next decade or more.
		
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More importantly, it's not going to work unless a significant number of the 'ignore the plebs, we know best' MPs that are determined to Remain change their minds! And that's going to be incredibly difficult, as May found out!


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Come on, it's not that at all. It's just bringing a little good humour into a difficult subject. ðŸ˜€
		
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No, just being a WUM as usual I'm afraid.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It wasn't just Cameron, it was senior politicians from all sides. I don't remember anyone laughing at him for saying leave the single market and the customs union.
		
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Mate, letâ€™s be honest, everytime either side opened their mouths the other side ridiculed it as either scare mongering or Project Fear.


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I paid my taxes for 40 years and still pay taxes in the UK. Also, the decision to leave affects pensions and healthcare of those that have contributed. I believe they, and me, should be entitled to vote.
		
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I believe you've got 15 years of voting 'grace'. As posted earlier, too long imo - given that you have decided to 'emigrate'!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 25, 2019)

People should only be allowed to vote in the country where they mainly reside, work and pay tax.


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## User62651 (May 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			More importantly, it's not going to work unless a significant number of the 'ignore the plebs, we know best' MPs that are determined to Remain change their minds! And that's going to be incredibly difficult, as May found out!
		
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The ERG Brexiteers and DUP scuppered Brexit for PM, not Remain MPs.


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			People should only be allowed to vote in the country where they mainly reside, work and pay tax.
		
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While I agree in principle, after a transition perod, Hobbit appears to reside in one, pay tax in another and work in neither!


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## ColchesterFC (May 25, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			The ERG Brexiteers and DUP scuppered Brexit for PM, not Remain MPs.
		
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Surely the crap deal negotiated by May has to take some of the blame for Brexit so far not happening?


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			The ERG Brexiteers and DUP scuppered Brexit for PM, not Remain MPs.
		
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Please explain how ERG Brexiteers 'scuppered' Brexit (not the PM). If she'd had any sense/diplomacy, she'd have convinced them that 'her way' was the best way to achieve their (primary) objective! I agree that DUP and Remain MPs  were/are the main barrier to achieving the referendum result!


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely the crap deal negotiated by May has to take some of the blame for Brexit so far not happening?
		
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There was never going to be any 'better' deal available! In fact, the 'deal' is not  'deal' at all - simply an exit agreement!


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## Fade and Die (May 25, 2019)

People vote the way they do for various reason, it's individual...not being disrespectful,but
some haven't gotta clue...why should they, most have more important things in their lives, trying
to bring up a couple kids as a single mother for instance, shes got no time for politics, but she's still gonna take a look around where she lives, see what she reckons are the problems
and vote simply on that....probably thinks the Irish border is a pub somewhere, but doesn't make
her any less entitled to have her say in a vote.
Then there's the likes of me and other guys and girls on here and elsewhere, who have the time or put the effort in do some digging...then vote.So every base is covered if you like, and we get a consensus...one that says we feel it's better if we leave the EU ...a Consensus of opinion that too many our MPs are refusing to
recognise.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Any comment on the the answer I gave you ref Leave Campaign? 

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Yes, the literature you have shown does make you right on the fact that it was said there would be a deal negotiated. I had missed that , so chalk one up to youðŸ˜€
However, I do not believe that it was offered that the deal would have to be approved by the HoC. The whole point of a referendum is to bypass the HoC, it being thought too important a matter to leave to just them.
So, to bring the requirement for their approval of the deal was a weak and bad move. 
I'll bet TM wishes she had ensured that the Government negotiated the deal with EU and implemented the result ,without taking any notice of that shower in Westminster .
If she had held uppermost in her mind that that was the purpose of a referendum, then she wouldn't be crying now.


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, the literature you have shown does make you right on the fact that it was said there would be a deal negotiated. I had missed that , so chalk one up to youðŸ˜€
However, I do not believe that it was offered that the deal would have to be approved by the HoC. The whole point of a referendum is to bypass the HoC, it being thought too important a matter to leave to just them.
*So, to bring the requirement for their approval of the deal was a weak and bad move.*
I'll bet TM wishes she had ensured that the Government negotiated the deal with EU and implemented the result ,without taking any notice of that shower in Westminster .
If she had held uppermost in her mind that that was the purpose of a referendum, then she wouldn't be crying now.
		
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Re th bold bit...That was, rightly, enforced by both the High and Supreme Courts. So May had to convincent Parliament - an impossibe task!

Btw. The refrendum was not, initially deemed binding! And that's, partly, the problem! Had it been deemed binding, then Cabinet/the PM could well have used that as an argument for many of the 'maybe-s', though I doubt whether hardline Remainer MPs would have been persuaded!


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Surely you were pretty much aware of that BEFORE the current chaos!

So does that mean you'd be happy to have a 2nd referendum, confident that the result would be the same?
		
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Regarding your first point: 'No',  I had reservations but honestly didn't understand how self serving and conniving they really are.

Regarding your second: Again 'No'  I stand firm in the belief that the decision was made in the referendum and nothing has happened to change the outcome. No further referendum should be contemplated before the result of the first has been executed.


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## robinthehood (May 25, 2019)

2blue said:



			And how do you handle NI??
		
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Why are you asking me that?


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Why are you asking me that?
		
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Presumably because the Irish (therefore EU) border is such a contentious issue!


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## robinthehood (May 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Presumably because the Irish (therefore EU) border is such a contentious issue!
		
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Yeah but what does it have to do with me? A very random out of the blue question


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Regarding your first point: 'No',  I had reservations but honestly didn't understand how self serving and conniving they really are.
...
		
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H'mm! I'm unconvinced they are as you describe! I believe they simply have a different opinion and are determined, and in a position, to do what they think is right!



SocketRocket said:



			Regarding your second: Again 'No'  I stand firm in the belief that the decision was made in the referendum and nothing has happened to change the outcome. No further referendum should be contemplated before the result of the first has been executed.
		
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I agree! However, I'm also inclined to believe that some sort of 'compromise' (cop-out!) will happen whereby a further referendum (hopefully with Parliament's agreement that it will be binding) will be held to 'agree the deal'! Given the complete shambles that has followed the '1st' referendum, I would not be surprised if a 'Remain' result happened!


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah but what does it have to do with me? A very random out of the blue question
		
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But rather key to establishing borders(and their control)!

It just demonstrates why the 'deal' was difficult - and, imo, how the EU team used that aspect to great effect!


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm! I'm unconvinced they are as you describe! I believe they simply have a different opinion and are determined, and in a position, to do what they think is right!
		
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I can only reiterate that what many of them have done is to conive a way to thwart the outcome of the referendum. They had their opportunity to refute the referendum and to vote down article 50 being enacted. Their different opinion is self serving and conniving.  If you disagree with this then that's your perogative.


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## Dando (May 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I can only reiterate that what many of them have done is to conive a way to thwart the outcome of the referendum. They had their opportunity to refute the referendum and to vote down article 50 being enacted. Their different opinion is self serving and conniving.  If you disagree with this then that's your perogative.
		
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They canâ€™t be seen to say â€œwe donâ€™t agree with the publicâ€ so putting as many obstacles as possible in the way of leaving is the next best thing in their eyes then they can say â€œwe tried to leave but xxxxx stopped usâ€


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## Foxholer (May 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I can only reiterate that what many of them have done is to conive a way to thwart the outcome of the referendum. They had their opportunity to refute the referendum and to vote down article 50 being enacted. Their different opinion is self serving and conniving.  If you disagree with this then that's your perogative.
		
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No, I actually agree with you. But, as you and others have stated, and I agree, they are politicians - too often nasty, slimy creatures  whose sole purpose seems to be self-promotian! But that's the nature of the job! Those who have morals and are in it for 'the greater good' seem to be (s)quashed either by the machine of their party or by the press as 'not <insert left/right as appropriate> wing' enough! 
It seems to me that this whole 'exercise' has been an 'interesting' critique of politicians (and the press) in general! None of the participants have come out of this with any credit imo!


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## spongebob59 (May 26, 2019)

Goves hat is in the ring.
One of his finer speeches


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## Tashyboy (May 26, 2019)

Had a lovely chinky take away last night, three couples there. All British. One couple over from Malta where they now live. The guy works in the energy business, buying and selling energy. Anyway he has had meetings with Maltese commissioners in government etc etc. Anyway Tashyboy asked him a simple question. What's the Maltese thoughts on Brexit. He said " they are shaking there heads asking what the heck is going on in the UK". No differant than the rest of us here thinking the same.  However he also said " don't think that leaving the EU will affect any trade between Malta and the U.K., nothing will change". He went onto say " don't get me wrong, Malta has very close connections with the U.K. Being part of the commonwealth, but why should it change anything, it would be foolish to, as would any country. Why would a country want to harm its trade".


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## robinthehood (May 26, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Had a lovely chinky take away last night, three couples there. All British. One couple over from Malta where they now live. The guy works in the energy business, buying and selling energy. Anyway he has had meetings with Maltese commissioners in government etc etc. Anyway Tashyboy asked him a simple question. What's the Maltese thoughts on Brexit. He said " they are shaking there heads asking what the heck is going on in the UK". No differant than the rest of us here thinking the same.  However he also said " don't think that leaving the EU will affect any trade between Malta and the U.K., nothing will change". He went onto say " don't get me wrong, Malta has very close connections with the U.K. Being part of the commonwealth, but why should it change anything, it would be foolish to, as would any country. Why would a country want to harm its trade".
		
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Casual racist slur aside, not sure I get your point .


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## Hacker Khan (May 26, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Had a lovely chinky take away last night, three couples there. All British. One couple over from Malta where they now live. The guy works in the energy business, buying and selling energy. Anyway he has had meetings with Maltese commissioners in government etc etc. Anyway Tashyboy asked him a simple question. What's the Maltese thoughts on Brexit. He said " they are shaking there heads asking what the heck is going on in the UK". No differant than the rest of us here thinking the same.  However he also said " don't think that leaving the EU will affect any trade between Malta and the U.K., nothing will change". He went onto say " don't get me wrong, Malta has very close connections with the U.K. Being part of the commonwealth, but why should it change anything, it would be foolish to, as would any country. *Why would a country want to harm its trade*".
		
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So are you arguing that Brexit is a stupid thing to do as it will harm our trade? Or are we saying that an overheard conversion in a Chinese restaurant means we will still trade with Malta after we have Brexited?  In which case I'll sleep easily at night now, knowing that my supply of Maltesers and falcons will not be impacted.


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## Hacker Khan (May 26, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Goves hat is in the ring.
One of his finer speeches







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Proving that Corbyn is not quite up to the task is like shooting fish and is a pretty low bar to hurdle over. To be honest I suspect most of us on here could do that, but I'd not want any of us to be PM.


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## Tashyboy (May 26, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So are you arguing that Brexit is a stupid thing to do as it will harm our trade? Or are we saying that an overheard conversion in a Chinese restaurant means we will still trade with Malta after we have Brexited?  In which case I'll sleep easily at night now, knowing that my supply of Maltesers and falcons will not be impacted.
		
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Well seeing as you didn't read the post correctly as in a â€œtake awayâ€ means it wasn't eaten in a restaurant and the club conversation wasnt overheard in a restaurant. When i stated i asked a question. The Maltese people are not bothered one bit if we/when we  leave. Trade will continue. They will be bothered about the money they lose from us. But will probably look ok to the east for that. 
Glad to help.


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## Tashyboy (May 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Casual racist slur aside, not sure I get your point .
		
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Is it a casual racist slur or a slang term. Either way i am sure you know it was not meant as  an insult. 
Now what was that term Beezerk said in another thread.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Is it a casual racist slur or a slang term. Either way i am sure you know it was not meant as  an insult.
Now what was that term Beezerk said in another thread.
		
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinky

Itâ€™s an offensive term.


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## robinthehood (May 26, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Is it a casual racist slur or a slang term. Either way i am sure you know it was not meant as  an insult.
Now what was that term Beezerk said in another thread.
		
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Yes it's racist.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So are you arguing that Brexit is a stupid thing to do as it will harm our trade? Or are we saying that an overheard conversion in a Chinese restaurant means we will still trade with Malta after we have Brexited?  In which case I'll sleep easily at night now, knowing that my supply of Maltesers and falcons will not be impacted.
		
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Nice twist, or, who would want to stop trading with a country just because it's no time in the EU. But you knew that.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2019)

I remember the days the term was used to describe a Chinese takeaway with most employees being U.K. Citizens, not a member of the Chinese race and nobody took offense. People getting offended who may have even used the term themselves.


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## Tashyboy (May 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes it's racist.
		
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I never knew you could be racist when using the term in relation to a take away. I apologise to all chinese restaurants that i have offended. However when talking about people from china i will continue to use the term chinese people. 
You might want to consider this next time you are a smart arse when someone asks you about NI, and i like your comment coz i liked your humour. Sometimes try not looking for something thats nit there and stop dropping anchors. ðŸ‘


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I remember the days the term was used to describe a Chinese takeaway with most employees being U.K. Citizens, not a member of the Chinese race and nobody took offense. People getting offended who may have even used the term themselves.
		
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Lots of terms were used â€œin the daysâ€ - doesnâ€™t mean they are now not offensive because it was ok to use them in the past. 

The term along with a number of other terms describing different nationalities and their establishments are no longer acceptable- even if they are not being used in a â€œderogatoryâ€ way.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2019)

People looking for offense when none was implied. World gets madder every day.


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## Fade and Die (May 26, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I never knew you could be racist when using the term in relation to a take away. I apologise to all chinese restaurants that i have offended. However when talking about people from china i will continue to use the term chinese people.
You might want to consider this next time you are a smart arse when someone asks you about NI, and i like your comment coz i liked your humour. Sometimes try not looking for something thats nit there and stop dropping anchors. ðŸ‘
		
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I think you have to say â€œtiddlywinkâ€ now. ðŸ‘ 

And they wonder why they get called snowflakes!ðŸ˜‚


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## Tashyboy (May 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I think you have to say â€œtiddlywinkâ€ now. ðŸ‘

And they wonder why they get called snowflakes!ðŸ˜‚
		
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Ah say you nearly got your ear bent as well. I thought you said " " TiddlerWinkle" and I thought how does he know, and fancy mentioning it on here. ðŸ˜


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## Blue in Munich (May 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Lots of terms were used â€œin the daysâ€ - doesnâ€™t mean they are now not offensive because it was ok to use them in the past.

The term along with a number of other terms describing different nationalities and their establishments are no longer acceptable- even if they are not being used in a â€œderogatoryâ€ way.
		
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Depending on who is using them of course. World gets madder every day.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			People looking for offense when none was implied. World gets madder every day.
		
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Thatâ€™s always the â€œdefenceâ€ when a well known clear offensive term is used - that along with snowflake etc , there are clear names which were at one point classed as â€œslangâ€ in the 60â€™s , 70â€™s etc which are now offensive because we are supposed to be a more tolerant society - shame some are either ignorant or stuck back in the days and still think itâ€™s ok to say â€œslangâ€ 



Blue in Munich said:



			Depending on who is using them of course. World gets madder every day.
		
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I guess itâ€™s down to which term is used at the end of the day - there are some loonies that just go mental at anything , perfect example was the lady on some morning program who went mad because someone called her a baby a â€œbeautiful girlâ€ and she said â€œher gender hasnâ€™t been decided yetâ€ ðŸ˜² - what sort of utter madness is that.


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

Brown and black used in the wrong context are offensive. Surely its about context?

Utter bloody madness. Sorry but I'm on Tashy's side with this one. And if anyone wants to take offence at that...sad little individuals.


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## Pin-seeker (May 26, 2019)

Wow I must know a lot of racists,because everyone I know would say â€œshall we order a chinkyâ€ when talking about Chinese takeaway. 

Snowflakes just looking to be offended imoðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Brown and black used in the wrong context are offensive. Surely its about context?

Utter bloody madness. Sorry but I'm on Tashy's side with this one. And if anyone wants to take offence at that...sad little individuals.
		
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Big difference between colours and a term that is derogatory based on the nationality of the person - colours quite clearly can be used in purely innocent context but the word that was used is a derogatory terms based on their race 

*â€œIn the United Kingdom, chinky (or chinky chonky,in parts of northern England known as a chinkies, always in the plural) is an offensive slang word for a Chinese takeaway restaurant or Chinese food. However, along with 'chink', they are named among TV's most offensive words.Originally, the word 'chink' refers to a narrow opening, slit or small gap, a negative analogy used to deride peoples with epicanthic folds. In the 20th century, the word 'chink' was a term used by many white North Americans to exclude and mock the facial appearance of Chinese migrants.â€*

Itâ€™s a racial slur at the end of the day regardless of how itâ€™s used.


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Big difference between colours and a term that is derogatory based on the nationality of the person - colours quite clearly can be used in purely innocent context but the word that was used is a derogatory terms based on their race

*â€œIn the United Kingdom, chinky (or chinky chonky,in parts of northern England known as a chinkies, always in the plural) is an offensive slang word for a Chinese takeaway restaurant or Chinese food. However, along with 'chink', they are named among TV's most offensive words.Originally, the word 'chink' refers to a narrow opening, slit or small gap, a negative analogy used to deride peoples with epicanthic folds. In the 20th century, the word 'chink' was a term used by many white North Americans to exclude and mock the facial appearance of Chinese migrants.â€*

Itâ€™s a racial slur at the end of the day regardless of how itâ€™s used.
		
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Yep, no problem reading that. And just because someone has defined it that way doesn't mean they are right. The world's gone flippin' bonkers. I've seen racism, and suffered it on a daily basis, including a stabbing. Sorry but I totally disagree. The context refers to a meal, not an individual. There's no intelligence in not taking into account the context.

See it however you want Phil but I say its just stupid to not look at context.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thatâ€™s always the â€œdefenceâ€ when a well known clear offensive term is used - that along with snowflake etc , there are clear names which were at one point classed as â€œslangâ€ in the 60â€™s , 70â€™s etc which are now offensive because we are supposed to be a more tolerant society - shame some are either ignorant or stuck back in the days and still think itâ€™s ok to say â€œslangâ€



I guess itâ€™s down to which term is used at the end of the day - there are some loonies that just go mental at anything , perfect example was the lady on some morning program who went mad because someone called her a baby a â€œbeautiful girlâ€ and she said â€œher gender hasnâ€™t been decided yetâ€ ðŸ˜² - what sort of utter madness is that.
		
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I am neither ignorant or stuck back in time nor have I ever used the term snowflake when referring to anyone's views but it appears that you feel it appropriate to throw about your normal insults when your somewhat strange reaction to a completely harmless post are questioned.

I'm not sure why I (this time) am the focus of your intolerance but feel free to crack on.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Yep, no problem reading that. And just because someone has defined it that way doesn't mean they are right. The world's gone flippin' bonkers. I've seen racism, and suffered it on a daily basis, including a stabbing. Sorry but I totally disagree. The context refers to a meal, not an individual. There's no intelligence in not taking into account the context.

See it however you want Phil but I say its just stupid to not look at context.
		
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But where is the word derived from - their looks , looks defined by their race. 

This is a good article talking to school kids 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp..../oct/04/schools-racism-hate-crime-brexit-vote

A good comment in there is - would you say â€œchinkyâ€ inside the restaurant- Iâ€™m guessing not so why ok outside not in range. One of my great friends from school runs a Chinese and he and his family find the term very offensive because of its origins. 

And if Farage thinks itâ€™s inoffensive that sums it up for me


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I am neither ignorant or stuck back in time nor have I ever used the term snowflake when referring to anyone's views but it appears that you feel it appropriate to throw about your normal insults when your somewhat strange reaction to a completely harmless post are questioned.

I'm not sure why I (this time) am the focus of your intolerance but feel free to crack on.
		
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It was a general comment about the term being deemed offensive in a modern tolerant society - no fingers were being pointed just as I suspect as was you werenâ€™t pointing when talking about people looking for offence even if none was there. No insults where aimed at anyone and i believed it to be just a general conversation.

Hopefully it was just an adult conversation without it going out of hand and made a break from the Brexit nonsense


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was a general comment about the term being deemed offensive in a modern tolerant society - no fingers were being pointed just as I suspect as was you werenâ€™t pointing when talking about people looking for offence even if none was there. No insults where aimed at anyone and i believed it to be just a general conversation.
		
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If you really think the post was offensive and racist surley the only course of action was to report it. I would hazard a guess that a large amount of people on this forum have used the expression themselves and never in an instance did it in a racist way.


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But where is the word derived from - their looks , looks defined by their race.

This is a good article talking to school kids

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp..../oct/04/schools-racism-hate-crime-brexit-vote

A good comment in there is - would you say â€œchinkyâ€ inside the restaurant- Iâ€™m guessing not so why ok outside not in range. One of my great friends from school runs a Chinese and he and his family find the term very offensive because of its origins.

And if Farage thinks itâ€™s inoffensive that sums it up for me
		
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So Farage is one of your poster boys.............. because it suits. Although I've not seen the piece in which he said that I would bet Â£1,000,000 its about the context of when and where he was asked, and the potential for his reply to be used out of context. C'mon, surely you can do better than say Farage says its not right.

You believe one thing and I believe another. You ain't shifting me on this one and I won't shift you. Lets leave it there.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			So Farage is one of your poster boys.............. because it suits. Although I've not seen the piece in which he said that I would bet Â£1,000,000 its about the context of when and where he was asked, and the potential for his reply to be used out of context. *C'mon, surely you can do better than say Farage says its not right.*

You believe one thing and I believe another. You ain't shifting me on this one and I won't shift you. Lets leave it there.
		
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I actually said that Farage finds it â€œINoffensiveâ€ ie not offensive

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...ably-an-elderly-male-Northern-Ukip-voter.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po.../Nigel-Farage-defends-use-of-word-chinky.html

Chinese people that I know and meet find it offensive- thatâ€™s enough for me


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I actually said that Farage finds it â€œINoffensiveâ€ ie not offensive

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...ably-an-elderly-male-Northern-Ukip-voter.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po.../Nigel-Farage-defends-use-of-word-chinky.html

Chinese people that I know and meet find it offensive- thatâ€™s enough for me
		
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You really need to read AND understand what I said. I know you said INoffensive, which is why I said Farage was your poster boy. So Farage saying its inoffensive its ok? What you put in that last sentence could be taken as Farage is right to say its inoffensive.

Would I use Chinky if I was sat in a restaurant? Good question. No, but because the staff might take it out of context. No way would I call them chinky. And thats what using intelligence is all about, knowing when to use it and in what context, like brown or black.


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## robinthehood (May 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You really need to read AND understand what I said. I know you said INoffensive, which is why I said Farage was your poster boy. So Farage saying its inoffensive its ok? What you put in that last sentence could be taken as Farage is right to say its inoffensive.

Would I use Chinky if I was sat in a restaurant? Good question. No, but because the staff might take it out of context. No way would I call them chinky. And thats what using intelligence is all about, knowing when to use it and in what context, like brown or black.
		
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So it's ok to use it when there are no Chinese around to hear it ?
#context


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## chrisd (May 26, 2019)

Next time I get called a "Brit" I've decided to complain of racism as I find it deeply offensive, especially as I'm English ðŸ‘


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			So it's ok to use it when there are no Chinese around to hear it ?
#context
		
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And you've never misunderstood a comment or accidentally taken something out of context and been upset by it? Not surprised by your effort to twist something...


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## Dando (May 26, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Next time I get called a "Brit" I've decided to complain of racism as I find it deeply offensive, especially as I'm English ðŸ‘
		
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Can I call you a miserable old git?  Or will you find that offensive


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

Dando said:



			Can I call you a miserable old git?  Or will you find that offensive
		
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He's not a git, he's a very nice very old man....


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## chrisd (May 26, 2019)

Dando said:



			Can I call you a miserable old git?  Or will you find that offensive
		
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I'll take that, it's better than I normally get from you ðŸ˜




Hobbit said:



			He's not a git, he's a very nice very old man....
		
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I'll decide how insultingly that is during the evening and get back to you old boy ðŸ‘


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## TheDiablo (May 26, 2019)

Middle and old aged white men deciding what is and isn't offensive and/or racist - you're not the ones who get to choose when it's not about you. Surely you've learnt that by now? 

As for 'context', the context here is that this is a forum open to anyone to use and read, not a closed WhatsApp chat where context could be very different. 

Golf undoubtedly has an image and inclusivity problem, and comments and subsequent discussion just highlight that. Would GM use a phrase on one of their platforms such as 'great round followed by a top chinky?' Of course not, because some people would offended. That's the context here that many are missing.


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## robinthehood (May 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And you've never misunderstood a comment or accidentally taken something out of context and been upset by it? Not surprised by your effort to twist something...
		
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I'm not twisting anything. if you wouldn't say it in front of Chinese,  why say it all. 
My Vietnamese friend got called it many times when we were growing up. Not really the inoffensive term you'd like to pretend it is.


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## Fade and Die (May 26, 2019)

TheDiablo said:



			Middle and old aged white men deciding what is and isn't offensive and/or racist - you're not the ones who get to choose when it's not about you. Surely you've learnt that by now?

As for 'context', the context here is that this is a forum open to anyone to use and read, not a closed WhatsApp chat where context could be very different.

Golf undoubtedly has an image and inclusivity problem, and comments and subsequent discussion just highlight that. Would GM use a phrase on one of their platforms such as 'great round followed by a top chinky?' Of course not, because some people would offended. That's the context here that many are missing.
		
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You seem easily offended and looking for a safe space. Move along snowflake. You wonâ€™t find it here.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2019)

Unlike some on here I would like to say I have no Chinese friends although I do have and know English friends who are of Chinese heritage.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 26, 2019)

Pin-seeker said:



			Wow I must know a lot of racists,because everyone I know would say â€œshall we order a chinkyâ€ when talking about Chinese takeaway.

Snowflakes just looking to be offended imoðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸.
		
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I was pulled up for saying that 25 years ago in Edinburgh, the world moves on.


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## Blue in Munich (May 26, 2019)

Dando said:



			Can I call you a miserable old git?  Or will you find that offensive
		
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Whilst possibly offensive, there is a defence that it is technically accurate ðŸ‘


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2019)

TheDiablo said:



			Middle and old aged white men deciding what is and isn't offensive and/or racist - you're not the ones who get to choose when it's not about you. Surely you've learnt that by now?

As for 'context', the context here is that this is a forum open to anyone to use and read, not a closed WhatsApp chat where context could be very different.

Golf undoubtedly has an image and inclusivity problem, and comments and subsequent discussion just highlight that. Would GM use a phrase on one of their platforms such as 'great round followed by a top chinky?' Of course not, because some people would offended. That's the context here that many are missing.
		
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Just because someone is offended by something. Doesn't mean said thing is offensive.


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## TheDiablo (May 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			You seem easily offended and looking for a safe space. Move along snowflake. You wonâ€™t find it here.
		
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Not sure where you could possible infer that I'm offended from? 

Luckily in circles I mix with empathy is a highly valued trait. Its a far nicer world than the one you occupy ðŸ‘ðŸ»


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## TheDiablo (May 26, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Just because someone is offended by something. Doesn't mean said thing is offensive.
		
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Completely agree. 100%. Just not sure of the relevance? 

If a significant enough proportion of people tell you they are offended by something directed at them for whatever reason, then I'm inclined to take that at face value, as I don't think I'm in a position to challenge that. 

For the record I don't think Tashy was intending in any way to be offensive. That doesn't mean it's not a misplaced comment on an open forum.


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## robinthehood (May 26, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Just because someone is offended by something. Doesn't mean said thing is offensive.
		
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Whos offended? We were discussing the use of a racist term, and that many on this thread feel its acceptable to use it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Just because someone is offended by something. Doesn't mean said thing is offensive.
		
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Not quite as simple as that, if the person you direct the comment to is offended then itâ€™s offensive.
Surely itâ€™s about knowing your audience.
Impact not intent.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2019)

TheDiablo said:



			Completely agree. 100%. Just not sure of the relevance?

If a significant enough proportion of people tell you they are offended by something directed at them for whatever reason, then I'm inclined to take that at face value, as I don't think I'm in a position to challenge that.

For the record I don't think Tashy was intending in any way to be offensive. That doesn't mean it's not a misplaced comment on an open forum.
		
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I meant it regards to the final point about Gm not using it as it may offend people. 

Not necessarily this term as such. But on many occasions people hold their tongue for fear of being labeled this or that from one person who likes to find offence. 



robinthehood said:



			Whos offended? We were discussing the use of a racist term, and that many on this thread feel its acceptable to use it.
		
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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not quite as simple as that, if the person you direct the comment to is offended then itâ€™s offensive.
Surely itâ€™s about knowing your audience.
Impact not intent.
		
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I agree about knowing your audience as such. But don't think someone claiming their offended by something means what's said is always wrong. 

People can be equally over sensitive.


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

TheDiablo said:



			Middle and old aged white men deciding what is and isn't offensive and/or racist - you're not the ones who get to choose when it's not about you. Surely you've learnt that by now?

As for 'context', the context here is that this is a forum open to anyone to use and read, not a closed WhatsApp chat where context could be very different.

Golf undoubtedly has an image and inclusivity problem, and comments and subsequent discussion just highlight that. Would GM use a phrase on one of their platforms such as 'great round followed by a top chinky?' Of course not, because some people would offended. That's the context here that many are missing.
		
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Ah, of course. Old people should know better and learn to sit quietly in the corner smelling of wee. A bit of age discrimination creeping in? No, never... everyone knows youngsters know best.

As for the "many are missing," since when did the few decide what the many should do or say? However, often it is the many that should defend the few that can't. In reality there is middle ground in all things.

I tend not to see colour, race, gender, sexual orientation, ageism, religion or assumed intelligence. I just see people as people and look to their personalities as their defining qualities. That doesn't make me right or wrong. My opinion of them is subjective.

If we're going to have a discussion on words and their semantics, i.e. the fundamental concept of the use of a word, you also have to consider its intuitive meaning. Semantics is about what is intuitively meaningful, and not necessarily the black and white meaning. Semantics are easier to pick up in the spoken word, not so much the written. Perhaps one of the best descriptions could be something along the lines of "what a gay day." I see that has being what a happy day. Others might see it differently. Both are right, and more importantly both are not wrong.

Going out for a Chinky brings in what is the intuitive meaning, i.e. going out for a Chinese meal. What the context is doesn't necessarily make it right but nor does it necessarily make it wrong. Equally, you've also got to consider the etymology of the word, i.e. what it means today isn't necessarily what it meant yesterday. The word Chinky, originally, comes from the American term for a Chinese person, but the word evolved to also mean a Chinese meal. Words evolve, along with their fundamental meaning, which leads to changes in their intuitive meaning.

Those that say Chinky, in terms of a meal, is racist could be looked on as those whose language hasn't evolved - that's just a backhanded, devil's advocate point before anyone takes the huff. They see it as a reference to a person, whereas someone else might intuitively see it in the context of a meal, and only a meal. (On a personal level, I see someone from China as Chinese, and you'll never hear me call someone from China anything else other than Chinese)

For all of the above, if someone from China felt the use of the word Chinky in the context of meaning a meal offensive, then its offensive. That doesn't mean the person using it is a racist, nor meant to be offensive.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			I agree about knowing your audience as such. But don't think someone claiming their offended by something means what's said is always wrong.

People can be equally over sensitive.
		
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If I say something to you and you tell me your offended, Iâ€™ve no right to say youâ€™re not, I can explain my intent and you can or cannot accept it, Iâ€™ve still got no right to tell you how to feel.


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If I say something to you and you tell me your offended, Iâ€™ve no right to say youâ€™re not, I can explain my intent and you can or cannot accept it, Iâ€™ve still got no right to tell you how to feel.
		
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But you could say they are overly sensitive. The majority of the time you'd still be wrong but there are a few people around that cry when someone looks sideways at them - if you know what I mean.


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## Fade and Die (May 26, 2019)

Getting offended by something posted on the internet is like choosing to step in dog shit instead of walking around it. ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Getting offended by something posted on the internet is like choosing to step in dog shit instead of walking around it. ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸
		
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Thatâ€™s rubbish, no different to being offended by seeing or hearing something on TV or reading something in the papers.

Itâ€™s being offended on behalf of others is were the trouble begins.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But you could say they are overly sensitive. The majority of the time you'd still be wrong but there are a few people around that cry when someone looks sideways at them - if you know what I mean.
		
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Thatâ€™s were it becomes difficult, but directly telling someone they are not offended tends to escalate the situation.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Just because someone is offended by something. Doesn't mean said thing is offensive.
		
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It leaves the old question - who deems something offensive?

The term in question for example for regularly used on mainstream telly - Alf Garnet I believe used it a lot but itâ€™s now appears to be on a list that mainstream media wonâ€™t use and people have lost their jobs when using it. 

So what or who defines it as offensive ?


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s were it becomes difficult, but directly telling someone they are not offended tends to escalate the situation.
		
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Sorry, rhetorically you could say. Totally agree, don't confront their position but talk about why...


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It leaves the old question - who deems something offensive?

The term in question for example for regularly used on mainstream telly - Alf Garnet I believe used it a lot but itâ€™s now appears to be on a list that mainstream media wonâ€™t use and people have lost their jobs when using it.

So what or who defines it as offensive ?
		
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The who defines what is offensive is one 'ell of a question. Unfortunately, changing people almost always follows offence. There is no other way for it to happen.

Who decides? The answer is multi-faceted. The DG of the Beeb might be offended by something and then send an edict down to producers. That only covers what offends him/her. A precedent might be set in the Courts, which leads to legislation. I guess the answer might be anyone, or group of people, who canvas for change.

As for Alf Garnet, you could also add in Benny Hill. I watched some old Benny Hill recently, and cringed. Surprisingly, early Two Ronnies is the same.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry, rhetorically you could say. Totally agree, don't confront their position but talk about why...
		
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Iâ€™m going on conversations I had being an E&D Officer over more than 10 years.
There are those you rightly said will look to be offended by anything and everything, but they had to be treated exactly the same as everyone else.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The who defines what is offensive is one 'ell of a question. Unfortunately, changing people almost always follows offence. There is no other way for it to happen.

Who decides? The answer is multi-faceted. The DG of the Beeb might be offended by something and then send an edict down to producers. That only covers what offends him/her. A precedent might be set in the Courts, which leads to legislation. I guess the answer might be anyone, or group of people, who canvas for change.

As for Alf Garnet, you could also add in Benny Hill. I watched some old Benny Hill recently, and cringed. Surprisingly, early Two Ronnies is the same.
		
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There is so much old telly now that gets â€œdubbedâ€ over lots of offensive words - I guess it even happens in The Dambusters and i suppose there are some programs or films that are no longer broadcast because of the language- Blazing Saddles for example ?


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2019)

It's a good job a few on here didn't know what the local eatery inside the wire in NI was called.


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## SatchFan (May 26, 2019)

Article 50 is actually Singapore Fried Rice Noodles at my local Chinese takeaway.


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## TheDiablo (May 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Ah, of course. Old people should know better and learn to sit quietly in the corner smelling of wee. A bit of age discrimination creeping in? No, never... everyone knows youngsters know best.

As for the "many are missing," since when did the few decide what the many should do or say? However, often it is the many that should defend the few that can't. In reality there is middle ground in all things.

I tend not to see colour, race, gender, sexual orientation, ageism, religion or assumed intelligence. I just see people as people and look to their personalities as their defining qualities. That doesn't make me right or wrong. My opinion of them is subjective.

If we're going to have a discussion on words and their semantics, i.e. the fundamental concept of the use of a word, you also have to consider its intuitive meaning. Semantics is about what is intuitively meaningful, and not necessarily the black and white meaning. Semantics are easier to pick up in the spoken word, not so much the written. Perhaps one of the best descriptions could be something along the lines of "what a gay day." I see that has being what a happy day. Others might see it differently. Both are right, and more importantly both are not wrong.

Going out for a Chinky brings in what is the intuitive meaning, i.e. going out for a Chinese meal. What the context is doesn't necessarily make it right but nor does it necessarily make it wrong. Equally, you've also got to consider the etymology of the word, i.e. what it means today isn't necessarily what it meant yesterday. The word Chinky, originally, comes from the American term for a Chinese person, but the word evolved to also mean a Chinese meal. Words evolve, along with their fundamental meaning, which leads to changes in their intuitive meaning.

Those that say Chinky, in terms of a meal, is racist could be looked on as those whose language hasn't evolved - that's just a backhanded, devil's advocate point before anyone takes the huff. They see it as a reference to a person, whereas someone else might intuitively see it in the context of a meal, and only a meal. (On a personal level, I see someone from China as Chinese, and you'll never hear me call someone from China anything else other than Chinese)

For all of the above, if someone from China felt the use of the word Chinky in the context of meaning a meal offensive, then its offensive. That doesn't mean the person using it is a racist, nor meant to be offensive.
		
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Firstly, I've been to enough meets and golf clubs to make a very well informed decision on the likely demographic of a UK golf forum. That demographic have been trying to dictate to the rest of the what to say, act, think for what, 500 years now? So I think it's a fair comment. If you were offended, then sorry ðŸ‘ðŸ»

Secondly, the few shouldn't decide. But they should be listened to. The few have been ignored for centuries. If theyre offended, we should have learnt by now to sit up and listen. I think we're in agreement here. 

The rest of the post I wholeheartedly agree with, although I probably put a bit more weight to what a word means today rather than its origin, because as you say things change and i try to live in the present. 

I did say in a later post that I don't believe Tashy in any way meant offence. But that doesn't mean it shouldnt be highlighted and discussed. If one person reading this thinks slightly longer next time, then great. If not, I'll personally continue offer the same viewpoint because I *think* in doing so I am doing the right thing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It's a good job a few on here didn't know what the local eatery inside the wire in NI was called.
		
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I enjoyed going to the monthly Welfare Officers meeting at Catterick Garrison just to realise how lucky I was to just be dealing with an Engineer Sqn and not an Infantry Regiment.


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is so much old telly now that gets â€œdubbedâ€ over lots of offensive words - I guess it even happens in The Dambusters and i suppose there are some programs or films that are no longer broadcast because of the language- Blazing Saddles for example ?
		
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When this discussion kicked off, I thought of Guy Gibson's dog. To me, it equates to the (sideways) use of Chinky for a Chinese meal, and in truth I felt a bit uncomfortable with my own position and questioned it. But, equally, the context of its use has nothing to do with describing a person. But I'd never call a dog by that name, which certainly brings into question my use of Chinky to describe a Chinese meal.

I suppose like being uncomfortable with watching Alf Garnet and Benny Hill, we all evolve.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If I say something to you and you tell me your offended, Iâ€™ve no right to say youâ€™re not, I can explain my intent and you can or cannot accept it, Iâ€™ve still got no right to tell you how to feel.
		
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I don't agree at all. Not everything said is offensive. I don't see how someone's right to choose what's offended then overrules someone's right to say something they don't believe is offensive. Within reason. 

I'm not talking rascism which for want of a better phrase is usually more black and white. But lots of other things can offend someone which is as much their issue as it is the persons saying it. 

I Certainly wouldn't apologise for offending someone if I truly believed what I'd said was innocent. Especially if I'd explained my reasoning.


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## Papas1982 (May 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It leaves the old question - who deems something offensive?

The term in question for example for regularly used on mainstream telly - Alf Garnet I believe used it a lot but itâ€™s now appears to be on a list that mainstream media wonâ€™t use and people have lost their jobs when using it.

So what or who defines it as offensive ?
		
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The general consensus imo. 
Whats said and the intent are the biggest indicators imo. Lots of things can be said with no malice whatsoever. Yet someone can overhear and claim its offensive when they have no idea of context. 

I certainly wouldn't pay attention to anyone who told me not to say something as it could be offensive to someone else.


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## Old Skier (May 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I enjoyed going to the monthly Welfare Officers meeting at Catterick Garrison just to not an Infantry Regiment. 

Click to expand...




pauldj42 said:



			I enjoyed going to the monthly Welfare Officers meeting at Catterick Garrison just to realise how lucky I was to just be dealing with an Engineer Sqn and not an Infantry Regiment. 

Click to expand...


Grunt Regiment, now that is offensive


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

TheDiablo said:



			Firstly, I've been to enough meets and golf clubs to make a very well informed decision on the likely demographic of a UK golf forum. That demographic have been trying to dictate to the rest of the what to say, act, think for what, 500 years now? So I think it's a fair comment. If you were offended, then sorry ðŸ‘ðŸ»

Secondly, the few shouldn't decide. But they should be listened to. The few have been ignored for centuries. If theyre offended, we should have learnt by now to sit up and listen. I think we're in agreement here.

The rest of the post I wholeheartedly agree with, although I probably put a bit more weight to what a word means today rather than its origin, because as you say things change and i try to live in the present.

I did say in a later post that I don't believe Tashy in any way meant offence. But that doesn't mean it shouldnt be highlighted and discussed. If one person reading this thinks slightly longer next time, then great. If not, I'll personally continue offer the same viewpoint because I *think* in doing so I am doing the right thing.
		
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Not offended by it so much but then maybe as possibly being equated to it. For many, many years I was the rebellious youngster in the club. Hell, I almost got lynched for arguing for the vote at an AGM for women and equal access at weekends over 30 years ago. Nowadays its your battle, not mine.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			I don't agree at all. Not everything said is offensive. I don't see how someone's right to choose what's offended then overrules someone's *right to say something* they don't believe is offensive. Within reason.

I'm not talking rascism which for want of a better phrase is usually more black and white. But lots of other things can offend someone which is as much their issue as it is the persons saying it.

I Certainly wouldn't apologise for offending someone if I truly believed what I'd said was innocent. Especially if I'd explained my reasoning.
		
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Never ever said you have no right to say it, how would you know the person is offended without saying it.

If however you had had â€œa slip of the tongueâ€ or the persons reason for being offended is in your opinion rubbish, then again donâ€™t apologise, no one has said you should.

But I genuinely believe any normal decent person would avoid offending someone on purpose and if they accidentally did, then if both people are civil and listen to each other the situation wouldnâ€™t require apologies just a sense of understanding.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Grunt Regiment, now that is offensive

View attachment 27391

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Geo mate, the Laundry went further forward than us.


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Never ever said you have no right to say it, how would you know the person is offended without saying it.

If however you had had â€œa slip of the tongueâ€ or the persons reason for being offended is in your opinion rubbish, then again donâ€™t apologise, no one has said you should.

But I genuinely believe any normal decent person would avoid offending someone on purpose and if they accidentally did, then if both people are civil and listen to each other the situation wouldnâ€™t require apologies just a sense of understanding.
		
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There's a semantic in there that perhaps needs highlighting. You could say, "sorry for offending you." That doesn't mean you've changed your opinion, only that you recognise that in that instance it offended them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			The general consensus imo.
Whats said and the intent are the biggest indicators imo. Lots of things can be said with no malice whatsoever. Yet someone can overhear and claim its offensive when they have no idea of context.

I certainly wouldn't pay attention to anyone who told me not to say something as it could be offensive to someone else.
		
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Thatâ€™s 2 different things though, the 1st is knowing your audience.

The 2nd could be a mate trying to stop you looking an ar5e.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			The general consensus imo.
Whats said and the intent are the biggest indicators imo. Lots of things can be said with no malice whatsoever. Yet someone can overhear and claim its offensive when they have no idea of context.

I certainly wouldn't pay attention to anyone who told me not to say something as it could be offensive to someone else.
		
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So if we go back to the original term that was used - the general consensus in the public is that the term is offensive in both describing the person and the restaurant/take away etc and itâ€™s use is frowned upon in the public domain. People will say it to each other but they wonâ€™t say it within the take away etc so that should question the word 

Now people will automatically start to say â€œwell does that mean I canâ€™t say - letâ€™s go for an Indianâ€ - but thatâ€™s nonsense because itâ€™s an Indian restaurant just like you really should be saying â€œ going for a Chinese or Thai or Italian â€œ etc etc 

The initial comment wasnâ€™t meant in a offensive way but the term itself is deemed offensive now and has been for a significant period - especially in the public eye which this is - Iâ€™m not offended by the word because it doesnâ€™t affect me and I suspect no one at the moment is offended it was just pointing out that the term is deemed offensive


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So if we go back to the original term that was used - the general consensus in the public is that the term is offensive in both describing the person and the restaurant/take away etc and itâ€™s use is frowned upon in the public domain. People will say it to each other but they wonâ€™t say it within the take away etc so that should question the word

Now people will automatically start to say â€œwell does that mean I canâ€™t say - letâ€™s go for an Indianâ€ - but thatâ€™s nonsense because itâ€™s an Indian restaurant just like you really should be saying â€œ going for a Chinese or Thai or Italian â€œ etc etc

The initial comment wasnâ€™t meant in a offensive way but the term itself is deemed offensive now and has been for a significant period - especially in the public eye which this is - Iâ€™m not offended by the word because it doesnâ€™t affect me and I suspect no one at the moment is offended it was just pointing out that the term is deemed offensive
		
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Its also different in different countries. I remember a headline in an Aussie newspaper about an upcoming test match against Pakistan. The headline was "lets go ...... bashing." You can fill in the gap. I was horrified but the Aussies I spoke to just couldn't see it. In fact, one of them said to me, "you call us Aussies, and we call you Poms. What wrong with....?" If you look at the root of the words, just what is wrong with it?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its also different in different countries. I remember a headline in an Aussie newspaper about an upcoming test match against Pakistan. The headline was "lets go ...... bashing." You can fill in the gap. I was horrified but the Aussies I spoke to just couldn't see it. In fact, one of them said to me, "you call us Aussies, and we call you Poms. What wrong with....?" If you look at the root of the words, just what is wrong with it?
		
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Yes - itâ€™s one that is just a shortened from the country name but I think thatâ€™s a historic slur and itâ€™s been used as a slur since day one. And then there is all the names used for Welsh , Scottish and Irish over the years. And the Aussies certainly have their word for the Aborigines


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## USER1999 (May 26, 2019)

Oddly, I do have some Chinese friends, and yes, they are Chinese, living in China, and I have not tried Chinky on them. I don't think they would have a scooby what I was on about. It is not a word I would use anyway.

As an aside, they are flat out racist though. They come out with stuff the KKK haven't said for 50 years.

Hard to feel offended for them.


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## Blue in Munich (May 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is so much old telly now that gets â€œdubbedâ€ over lots of offensive words - I guess it even happens in The Dambusters and i suppose there are some programs or films that are no longer broadcast because of the language- Blazing Saddles for example ?
		
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No it doesn't happen in The Dambusters Phil; they publish an apology in politically correct terms at the start of the film and then the dog is referred to by the name that Guy Gibson gave it.


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## IainP (May 27, 2019)

Expect we have a few days of people interpreting the EU elections in various ways to look forward to ðŸ¤”


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## Pathetic Shark (May 27, 2019)

Fantastic quote from one of the Lib Dem idiots last night in which he stated because more people voted for them, the Greens and other "Remain" parties, Brexit should be cancelled.

Err we've had a vote on that already and Brexit won.     They really only want democracy when it suits them.


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## chrisd (May 27, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Fantastic quote from one of the Lib Dem idiots last night in which he stated because more people voted for them, the Greens and other "Remain" parties, Brexit should be cancelled.

Err we've had a vote on that already and Brexit won.     They really only want democracy when it suits them.
		
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Quite early on last evening  Alistair Campbell was trying to make the case that Remain had won by adding various votes together - he could have had no idea why those Conservative and Labour  voters voted the way they did and there really cant construe it as a remain vote!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Quite early on last evening  Alistair Campbell was trying to make the case that Remain had won by adding various votes together - he could have had no idea why those Conservative and Labour  voters voted the way they did and there really cant construe it as a remain vote!
		
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I guess it depends on which way you look at it -

Brexit Party have 28 seats

Lib Demâ€™s have 15

Labour have 10

Green have 7

Tories have 3

Plaid Cymru have 1

Scotland and NI yet to declare

And I believe counting the votes - itâ€™s

41% anti Brexit

35% Pro Brexit

14 % Labour

10% Tory


But the turnout is so low I suspect itâ€™s all irrelevant with people from all sides fed up with it all 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403131


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Fantastic quote from one of the Lib Dem idiots last night in which he stated because more people voted for them, the Greens and other "Remain" parties, Brexit should be cancelled.

Err we've had a vote on that already and Brexit won.     They really only want democracy when it suits them.
		
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chrisd said:



			Quite early on last evening  Alistair Campbell was trying to make the case that Remain had won by adding various votes together - he could have had no idea why those Conservative and Labour  voters voted the way they did and there really cant construe it as a remain vote!
		
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I find it so disappointing that MPs still treat the electorate as though they are thick. They take half truths and spin them into big fat lies.

I'll happily concede that the vast majority of votes that went to the LibDems/Greens/SNP are votes for Remain. And that all the votes for the Brexit Party are for Leave. Beyond that there will be people who voted for their long time fav party, and those who perhaps want to Leave but wouldn't touch Farage with a barge pole. I wonder how many people didn't vote at all because they're either fed up with politicians as a whole or have no interest in the European Project?

Beyond the obvious Remain/Leave parties you'd need a crystal ball to get anywhere near an accurate prediction of the split.


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## Blue in Munich (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*I find it so disappointing that MPs still treat the electorate as though they are thick.* They take half truths and spin them into big fat lies.

I'll happily concede that the vast majority of votes that went to the LibDems/Greens/SNP are votes for Remain. And that all the votes for the Brexit Party are for Leave. Beyond that there will be people who voted for their long time fav party, and those who perhaps want to Leave but wouldn't touch Farage with a barge pole. I wonder how many people didn't vote at all because they're either fed up with politicians as a whole or have no interest in the European Project?

Beyond the obvious Remain/Leave parties you'd need a crystal ball to get anywhere near an accurate prediction of the split.
		
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Bitterly disappointing Brian, but absolutely no surprise.  Their arrogance is unbelievable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*I find it so disappointing that MPs still treat the electorate as though they are thick*. They take half truths and spin them into big fat lies.

I'll happily concede that the vast majority of votes that went to the LibDems/Greens/SNP are votes for Remain. And that all the votes for the Brexit Party are for Leave. Beyond that there will be people who voted for their long time fav party, and those who perhaps want to Leave but wouldn't touch Farage with a barge pole. I wonder how many people didn't vote at all because they're either fed up with politicians as a whole or have no interest in the European Project?

Beyond the obvious Remain/Leave parties you'd need a crystal ball to get anywhere near an accurate prediction of the split.
		
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Slightly pedantic, Campbell is a journalist and has never been an MP.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess it depends on which way you look at it -

Brexit Party have 28 seats

Lib Demâ€™s have 15

Labour have 10

Green have 7

Tories have 3

Plaid Cymru have 1

Scotland and NI yet to declare

And I believe counting the votes - itâ€™s

41% anti Brexit

35% Pro Brexit

14 % Labour

10% Tory


*But the turnout is so low* I suspect itâ€™s all irrelevant with people from all sides fed up with it all

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403131

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Actually it rose from 2014 which says more people made the effort because of the Brexit shambles.


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Slightly pedantic, Campbell is a journalist and has never been an MP.
		
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Yep, I recognise that but couldn't ar5ed listing the likes of him, Gina Miller etc.


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## Imurg (May 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Actually it rose from 2014 which says more people made the effort because of the Brexit shambles.
		
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But it's still spectacularly low compared to the other long term member states.
We've yet to hit 40% turnout on an EU average of 60+%.
Proof we don't care enough about Europe?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2019)

Imurg said:



			But it's still spectacularly low compared to the other long term member states.
We've yet to hit 40% turnout on an EU average of 60+%.
Proof we don't care enough about Europe?
		
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I agree with your point but that wasnâ€™t what I responded to, he stated it was low as people are fed up with Brexit, we didnâ€™t have the Brexit issue in 2014 when less people voted. This time more have voted when we do have the Brexit issue, which, imo, says more people got involved as they cared more.

Edit:
With Scotland and NI still to declare, it is currently the 2nd highest turnout in UK History for an EU Election.


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## JamesR (May 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Ah, of course. Old people should know better and learn to sit quietly in the corner smelling of wee...
		
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Well, itâ€™s taken nigh on 10,000 posts but, finally someone has posted something we can all agree with ðŸ‘


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## Hacker Khan (May 27, 2019)

People will interpret the results mostly based on their existing preconceptions. The deluded are those that fail to see this and just peddle one narrative as if it's the only interpretation.


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## Beezerk (May 27, 2019)

Looks like Labour are going for the hard Remain stance now. What a bunch of, desperate, power hungry @rsewipes.
Theyâ€™ve lost my vote forever if itâ€™s true.


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## robinthehood (May 27, 2019)

Clearly majority for remain , brexit cancelled soon  and we can put this waste of time and effort behind us.


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## spongebob59 (May 27, 2019)

Sums this up nicely  :

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-05-27/did-the-uk-just-vote-leave-or-remain/


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## Papas1982 (May 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Clearly majority for remain , brexit cancelled soon  and we can put this waste of time and effort behind us.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

re: Labour. Utterly rudderless in terms of what they have gone through over the past 6 to 12 months. Trying to sit on 2 sides of the Brexit divide is clearly a failed strategy. 

Ultimately this is an issue that is so much at the forefront of all news / politics / down the pub discussions etc. that it is complete folly to not adopt a firmer position. You might get away without having a clear policy on something more minor and say 'we'll come to that when we've had a better look at the books' but on this, they simply didn't give people anything to vote for. 

Corbyn in particular must simply wish that Brexit would have been delivered by now and could fall back down the agenda, so he could get onto his strong suit of public services / domestic policy / Tory bashing. But the game of politics doesn't work like that and probably Brexit is simply not going to fall down the agenda for quite a while. 

Labour MPs are making points that in Labour held seats in the North of England - the Brexit party is getting 45%. Clearly a great number of Labour voters going hardline on Brexit. So they are extrapolating that as 'we can't be too pro-Remain'. But the results show that you clearly have to be one or the other. 

There are enough Pro EU people to deliver a Labour majority (or certainly a non-Tory majority) and Labour must do more to build a coalition of these people. If that means losing seats in the North of England, then so be it. But all of a sudden, a load of other Tory held seats come into play. 

Labour are trying to follow the people on this, not leading and making the case for anything in particular.


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## jp5 (May 27, 2019)

^ a well thought out post


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## Fade and Die (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			re: Labour. Utterly rudderless in terms of what they have gone through over the past 6 to 12 months. Trying to sit on 2 sides of the Brexit divide is clearly a failed strategy.

Ultimately this is an issue that is so much at the forefront of all news / politics / down the pub discussions etc. that it is complete folly to not adopt a firmer position. You might get away without having a clear policy on something more minor and say 'we'll come to that when we've had a better look at the books' but on this, they simply didn't give people anything to vote for.

Corbyn in particular must simply wish that Brexit would have been delivered by now and could fall back down the agenda, so he could get onto his strong suit of public services / domestic policy / Tory bashing. But the game of politics doesn't work like that and probably Brexit is simply not going to fall down the agenda for quite a while.

Labour MPs are making points that in Labour held seats in the North of England - the Brexit party is getting 45%. Clearly a great number of Labour voters going hardline on Brexit. So they are extrapolating that as 'we can't be too pro-Remain'. But the results show that you clearly have to be one or the other.

There are enough Pro EU people to deliver a Labour majority (or certainly a non-Tory majority) and Labour must do more to build a coalition of these people. If that means losing seats in the North of England, then so be it. But all of a sudden, a load of other Tory held seats come into play.

Labour are trying to follow the people on this, not leading and making the case for anything in particular.
		
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Good post, your 1st paragraph could equally apply to the tories, trying to keep everyone happy and ending up alienating both sides.

Re the Labour Party, Iâ€™ve always been amazed that they can appeal to the Islington set (Thornberry types) and the traditional heartland of the North, they seem mutually exclusive to me!


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## 2blue (May 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Clearly majority for remain , brexit cancelled soon  and we can put this waste of time and effort behind us.
		
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AND Honda can continue to be one of the biggest  life-savers in the NE...â€¦.  as most of the footie teams have given up years ago......  Ah!! ...  I forgot the Gateshead Centre.


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## drdel (May 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Clearly majority for remain , brexit cancelled soon  and we can put this waste of time and effort behind us.
		
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According to the Diane Abbott School of Statistics


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## Grant85 (May 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Good post, your 1st paragraph could equally apply to the tories, trying to keep everyone happy and ending up alienating both sides.

Re the Labour Party, Iâ€™ve always been amazed that they can appeal to the Islington set (Thornberry types) and the traditional heartland of the North, they seem mutually exclusive to me!
		
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I guess that's politics - try to appeal to as many people as you can and present things selectively in different places. Problem is that for decades, who else were the folk in Northern Cities going to vote for? Ultimately Labour took those votes for granted, often sending metropolitan types north in suits north to become their local MP (Tony Blair, Sedgefield; Ed Milliband, Donacaster etc.). 

When Brexit was on offer, a lot of those people clearly thought 'why not, can't be any worse'.  Didn't help that Corbyn wasn't exactly out in Blackburn and Hull high streets with his soap box, shouting the benefits of the EU to those folk. 

Now, these people have pretty much left Labour. Of course, they aren't going to vote for the Tories - because 'Thatcher, mines, car factories etc'. But UKIP / BP / Farage, don't quite have that baggage. 

Labour would be far better off leaving those folk to it. Maybe holding onto some of the seats, with good local candidates or 3 way marginals. And then adopt a far more 'Islington' approach. Appeal to the cosmopolitan cities of London, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and university towns like Cambridge, Bristol, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle etc.  

Other problem with that strategy is that the populations of these 'metropolitan' constituencies has grown, but the number of seats on offer has stayed the same. 
it's why the likes of Corbyn and Abbot could win 40,000 votes in their London constituencies. But it only took Ed Miliband 25,000 in Doncaster North.


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I guess that's politics - try to appeal to as many people as you can and present things selectively in different places. Problem is that for decades, who else were the folk in Northern Cities going to vote for? Ultimately Labour took those votes for granted, often sending metropolitan types north in suits north to become their local MP (Tony Blair, Sedgefield; Ed Milliband, Donacaster etc.).

When Brexit was on offer, a lot of those people clearly thought 'why not, can't be any worse'.  Didn't help that Corbyn wasn't exactly out in Blackburn and Hull high streets with his soap box, shouting the benefits of the EU to those folk.

Now, these people have pretty much left Labour. Of course, they aren't going to vote for the Tories - because 'Thatcher, mines, car factories etc'. But UKIP / BP / Farage, don't quite have that baggage.

Labour would be far better off leaving those folk to it. Maybe holding onto some of the seats, with good local candidates or 3 way marginals. And then adopt a far more 'Islington' approach. Appeal to the cosmopolitan cities of London, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and university towns like Cambridge, Bristol, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle etc. 

Other problem with that strategy is that the populations of these 'metropolitan' constituencies has grown, but the number of seats on offer has stayed the same.
it's why the likes of Corbyn and Abbot could win 40,000 votes in their London constituencies. But it only took Ed Miliband 25,000 in Doncaster North.
		
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Thanks for an educated post, you make some excellent points.

When I was young (no sniggering please)  society was very well defined, you were very aware of your class, nowadays its not so clearly defined, the traditional working class has almost vanished, there is now a small traditional working class, a large upper working class or maybe lower middle class and a growing number of people who are somewnere  between an underclass and working class (hope that makes sense).    I went to a traditional Grammar school  but I am not aware of anyone from my year going to University, most became apprentices.   In these times voting intentions were fairly well defined, working class voted Labour and the middle classes were divided between Conservative and Liberal.

I like your point regarding where Labour should be pitching themselves.  I can understand the proposition whereby Labour should make less effort in attracting their traditional homelands and focus on the Left wing Socialist Elete who have morphed from the middle classes thus creating a threat to the previous Tory strongholds.


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## Fade and Die (May 28, 2019)

So the Tories will elect a new leader in July.

The house rises on 20 July and returns on 05 September.

Conference is 14 September until 09 October.

Brexit is 31 October.

...does anybody see a tiny problem with this schedule or is it a cunning plan to default to a WTO Brexit? ðŸ¤”


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So the Tories will elect a new leader in July.

The house rises on 20 July and returns on 05 September.

Conference is 14 September until 09 October.

Brexit is 31 October.

...does anybody see a tiny problem with this schedule or is it a cunning plan to default to a WTO Brexit? ðŸ¤”
		
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If it is a cunning plan itâ€™s doomed to failure, Parliament has already voted against a No Deal Brexit and Iâ€™d suggest if they tried that there would be a motion tabled by the opposition parties to revoke Art 50.
Plus it really wouldnâ€™t be a good start for a leader going against some of their own MPâ€™s.


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## ger147 (May 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If it is a cunning plan itâ€™s doomed to failure, Parliament has already voted against a No Deal Brexit and Iâ€™d suggest if they tried that there would be a motion tabled by the opposition parties to revoke Art 50.
Plus it really wouldnâ€™t be a good start for a leader going against some of their own MPâ€™s.
		
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Two potential issues with the A50 motion idea:

1) Motions are not legally binding on the government i.e. they could simply ignore the result. It would need to be a change to current legislation.
2) The motion or attempt to change current legislation may not win, plenty of leavers on the Labour benches.


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## Hacker Khan (May 28, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I guess that's politics - try to appeal to as many people as you can and present things selectively in different places. Problem is that for decades, who else were the folk in Northern Cities going to vote for? Ultimately Labour took those votes for granted, often sending metropolitan types north in suits north to become their local MP (Tony Blair, Sedgefield; Ed Milliband, Donacaster etc.).

When Brexit was on offer, a lot of those people clearly thought 'why not, can't be any worse'.  Didn't help that Corbyn wasn't exactly out in Blackburn and Hull high streets with his soap box, shouting the benefits of the EU to those folk.

*Now, these people have pretty much left Labour. Of course, they aren't going to vote for the Tories - because 'Thatcher, mines, car factories etc'. But UKIP / BP / Farage, don't quite have that baggage.*

Labour would be far better off leaving those folk to it. Maybe holding onto some of the seats, with good local candidates or 3 way marginals. And then adopt a far more 'Islington' approach. Appeal to the cosmopolitan cities of London, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and university towns like Cambridge, Bristol, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle etc. 

Other problem with that strategy is that the populations of these 'metropolitan' constituencies has grown, but the number of seats on offer has stayed the same.
it's why the likes of Corbyn and Abbot could win 40,000 votes in their London constituencies. But it only took Ed Miliband 25,000 in Doncaster North.
		
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One thing that struck me was that Rees-Mogg's sister got in as a MEP in my patch of the woods and she said she'd been out on the streets of places like Mansfield listening to people's concerns.  Now fair play to her and the party, they managed to get a lot of seats in the European elections. But I really can't see how she can empathise, how she can understand their concerns and challenges or have anything in the slightest bit in common with the average good burgers of Mansfield or the other towns she has visited, other than a distaste for Europe.  Now that may well be enough for now, but I can't help thinking there are dark days ahead if (or IMHO when) it turns out that Europe was not the main thing holding back the economic regeneration in these areas.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2019)

I don't know if any of you read the clever Wings post, basically he is saying that the two main parties [ATM] do not want a vote of no confidence [GE] or a EU 2nd ref for reasons of being toast.
No Deal leave on Halloween is now virtually certain.


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## chrisd (May 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No Deal leave on Halloween is now virtually certain.
		
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I don't see why. If a leave PM is chosen, who makes it clear that No DEAL is DEFINITELY on the table then those who don't want a no deal will likely rally around a deal, hopefully a better one than Mays one


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## robinthehood (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I don't see why. If a leave PM is chosen, who makes it clear that No DEAL is DEFINITELY on the table then those who don't want a no deal will likely rally around a deal, hopefully a better one than Mays one
		
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Good luck with your new deal. 

45


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I don't see why. If a leave PM is chosen, who makes it clear that No DEAL is DEFINITELY on the table then those who don't want a no deal will likely rally around a deal, hopefully a better one than Mays one
		
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Can a â€œleave PMâ€ do that ? Havenâ€™t they had a vote already that means no deal and indeed if a No Deal was requested it still needs to go through HoC ?

The rules wonâ€™t change just because a PM who prefers to leave is voted in ? And what happens if a Remain PM is voted in again

And the EU have already said - this is the deal ? 

Are people expecting a magic turnaround from the current mess when a new PM arrives ?


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## ColchesterFC (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can a â€œleave PMâ€ do that ? Havenâ€™t they had a vote already that means no deal and indeed if a No Deal was requested it still needs to go through HoC ?

The rules wonâ€™t change just because a PM who prefers to leave is voted in ? And what happens if a Remain PM is voted in again
		
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In my understanding there is one way in which a No Deal exit could happen. Parliament have made it fairly clear that they won't accept a No Deal situation so it's virtually certain that it wouldn't receive enough votes to pass through the HoC. However, if an ardent Leaver became PM it is possible that they could call a general election within a certain time frame of 31st October, at which point Parliament shuts down for the campaigning period. As a result the clock would run down to 31st October and we'd be out with No Deal and I believe no way for it to be prevented.

While typing this I realised that there is possibly a second way it could happen. If nothing was agreed close to the end date, the new PM could ask the EU for a further extension. If they rejected it we could be out with No Deal as there likely wouldn't be time to get whatever was needed to revoke Article 50 through the HoC and into law.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 28, 2019)

Equally, the PM just runs the clock down. You reach Oct 31st, don't ask for an extension or let it be known that an extension will not change the situation. The EU either rip up the current deal and re-write it or the UK leaves with no deal.

The PM doesn't need No Deal to pass. They just need to reach Oct 31st without agreement.

The above may be simplistic, may also be wrong, but that is what Esther McVey suggested yesterday.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I don't see why. If a leave PM is chosen, who makes it clear that No DEAL is DEFINITELY on the table then those who don't want a no deal will likely rally around a deal, hopefully a better one than Mays one
		
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They will have exactly 4 weeks to get a vote through Parliament, not a snowballs chance in hell.


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## Grant85 (May 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			One thing that struck me was that Rees-Mogg's sister got in as a MEP in my patch of the woods and she said she'd been out on the streets of places like Mansfield listening to people's concerns.  Now fair play to her and the party, they managed to get a lot of seats in the European elections. But I really can't see how she can empathise, how she can understand their concerns and challenges or have anything in the slightest bit in common with the average good burgers of Mansfield or the other towns she has visited, other than a distaste for Europe.  Now that may well be enough for now, but I can't help thinking there are dark days ahead if (or IMHO when) it turns out that Europe was not the main thing holding back the economic regeneration in these areas.
		
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I'd tend to agree. It will be very difficult for the Brexit Party to turn this into seats at a General Election. The voting system is one thing, but ultimately they are unlikely to have a high calibre of candidate and their policy platform will probably not exactly be a cohesive manifesto for government. 

Personally feel a lot of people completely underestimate how difficult it is to be an MP, or a good one at least. In terms of the number of people you might have to deal with, some of whom you might not be able to help and others you might not want to help. 

Britain, and England in particular, is hugely centralised in the South East. Government doesn't do enough to support the towns and cities that centred around decent industry in previous decades. Spending billions on London transport, Heathrow expansion, HS2 etc. pulls the focus even more into London. 

Look at at economy like Germany. They have held onto their manufacturing base and now have a hugely skilled workforce pulled from all over Europe. The thing about manufacturing is that it tends to be spread out as it takes up a lot of floor space and so big plants develop away from city centres. This means jobs and economic activity are spread out around the country. 

In London, you can have a few thousand financial services jobs turning over billions on a few floors in an office block. But this leaves towns like Mansfield completely detached from that economic boon.


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## chrisd (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can a â€œleave PMâ€ do that ? Havenâ€™t they had a vote already that means no deal and indeed if a No Deal was requested it still needs to go through HoC ?

The rules wonâ€™t change just because a PM who prefers to leave is voted in ? And what happens if a Remain PM is voted in again

And the EU have already said - this is the deal ?

Are people expecting a magic turnaround from the current mess when a new PM arrives ?
		
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I'm not sure, and would stand corrected, but is the HOC vote for not allowing a no deal Brexit is not legally binding?

Others, since my post have shown how a no deal Brexit could be achieved although I dont see a new PM doing this.

I dont see why, say, a Boris wouldn't be able to get the Eu to open up the deal for renegotiation if he played a hardline with them as its clearly less in their interest to let us wander off with no deal and no payment


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## Old Skier (May 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If it is a cunning plan itâ€™s doomed to failure, Parliament has already voted against a No Deal Brexit and Iâ€™d suggest if they tried that there would be a motion tabled by the opposition parties to revoke Art 50.
Plus it really wouldnâ€™t be a good start for a leader going against some of their own MPâ€™s.
		
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Parliament may have voted against a No Deal but our current masters, the EU have stated that we are out on the 31st Oct, deal or no deal.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm not sure, and would stand corrected, but is the HOC vote for not allowing a no deal Brexit is not legally binding?

Others, since my post have shown how a no deal Brexit could be achieved although I dont see a new PM doing this.

I dont see why, say, a Boris wouldn't be able to get the Eu to open up the deal for renegotiation if he played a hardline with them as its clearly less in their interest to let us wander off with no deal and no payment
		
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Boris ?! Really ? Sorry but it surprises me that he manages to tie his shoe laces up 

The EU hold all the cards - and they will imo quote happily let it just keep going on and on because they arenâ€™t losing out and even when the deadline comes they will extend it with glee - they donâ€™t want no deal and our MPâ€™s donâ€™t want a No Deal. And even if we did wander off we will have to pay money


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## chrisd (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Boris ?! Really ? Sorry but it surprises me that he manages to tie his shoe laces up

The EU hold all the cards - and they will imo quote happily let it just keep going on and on because they arenâ€™t losing out and even when the deadline comes they will extend it with glee - they donâ€™t want no deal and our MPâ€™s donâ€™t want a No Deal. And even if we did wander off we will have to pay money
		
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Well Boris is the favourite as I understand

The EU only hold the cards if we have no deal on the table

I agree that the EU would go on and on as we are but I'm pretty sure a new PM would not ask for a longer delay

We might have to pay for some pension contributions but the Â£39bn would not be paid imo


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Boris ?! Really ? Sorry but it surprises me that he manages to tie his shoe laces up

The EU hold all the cards - and they will imo quote happily let it just keep going on and on because they arenâ€™t losing out and even when the deadline comes they will extend it with glee - they donâ€™t want no deal and our MPâ€™s donâ€™t want a No Deal. And even if we did wander off we will have to pay money
		
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Why will the UK have to pay money? There's already been a ruling from the Law Lords stating that there's nothing in the EU rules that state commitments extend beyond a leave date. Equally, if a net receiver left, would the EU pay money for xx years to that country?

Don't get me wrong, I believe the UK should pay towards pensions and projects already agreed/started but I'm also aware there's nothing in the EU rules that say the UK should.

So why will the UK "*have* to pay money?"


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Why will the UK have to pay money? There's already been a ruling from the Law Lords stating that there's nothing in the EU rules that state commitments extend beyond a leave date. Equally, if a net receiver left, would the EU pay money for xx years to that country?

Don't get me wrong, I believe the UK should pay towards pensions and projects already agreed/started but I'm also aware there's nothing in the EU rules that say the UK should.

So why will the UK "*have* to pay money?"
		
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I believe that the EU will go to courts and we will end up having to pay a divorce bill as such, but if we walk away without paying a penny it imo will damage the UK reputation and people will imo avoid doing any sort of deal with us seeing how we acted with little regard and maybe honour to countries we have held strong bonds with over decades. We will lose any sort of standing on a global stage ( if we arenâ€™t already a laughing stock ) - but I expect our MPâ€™s whilst displaying a lack of integrity right now wonâ€™t be daft enough to walk away without paying a divorce bill.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe that the EU will go to courts and we will end up having to pay a divorce bill as such, but if we walk away without paying a penny it imo will damage the UK reputation and people will imo avoid doing any sort of deal with us seeing how we acted with little regard and maybe honour to countries we have held strong bonds with over decades. We will lose any sort of standing on a global stage ( if we arenâ€™t already a laughing stock ) - but I expect our MPâ€™s whilst displaying a lack of integrity right now wonâ€™t be daft enough to walk away without paying a divorce bill.
		
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What is morally right and what is law, laid down in the EU rules are 2 different things. There isn't a divorce bill according to the Law Lords. 

Just saying here's Â£39bn without some strings was, imo, a bit naive. I think it should be paid, or a proportion of it, and I think the UK could offer more as part of a negotiation. The EU are losing 14% of their budget contribution at a time when a number of the ECB's junk bonds are about to mature. The UK team, for whatever reason, didn't appear to use enough leverage around that.


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## Dando (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe that the EU will go to courts and we will end up having to pay a divorce bill as such, but if we walk away without paying a penny it imo will damage the UK reputation and people will imo avoid doing any sort of deal with us seeing how we acted with little regard and maybe honour to countries we have held strong bonds with over decades. We will lose any sort of standing on a global stage ( if we arenâ€™t already a laughing stock ) - but I expect our MPâ€™s whilst displaying a lack of integrity right now wonâ€™t be daft enough to walk away without paying a divorce bill.
		
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Isnâ€™t the ransom part of the withdrawal agreement that our wonderful MPâ€™s wonâ€™t vote through?


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## Fade and Die (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Well Boris is the favourite as I understand

The EU only hold the cards *if we have no deal on the table*

I agree that the EU would go on and on as we are but I'm pretty sure a new PM would not ask for a longer delay

We might have to pay for some pension contributions but the Â£39bn would not be paid imo
		
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We absolutely have to get no deal back in the table...you must have that threat and be prepared to do it......you can't negotiate buying 
anything from a Car to Brexit, if the seller knows your desperate and have to have a deal at any cost....there's a point when you have to be able to say nah..no deal mate..I'll go 
elsewhere.
Anyone that thinks otherwise have obviously never had to do any sort of deal or negotiation in their lives.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Well Boris is the favourite as I understand

The EU only hold the cards if we have no deal on the table

I agree that the EU would go on and on as we are but I'm pretty sure a new PM would not ask for a longer delay

We might have to pay for some pension contributions but the Â£39bn would not be paid imo
		
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Boris will have no further power than what TM had , nothing will change with a new leader because the Tories donâ€™t have a winning vote in the HoC - and No Deal wonâ€™t be imo put back on the table - the MPâ€™s who have the power wonâ€™t allow it regardless of what Boris wants 

And it imo will be delayed again - the MPâ€™s donâ€™t want to leave and will find a way to revoke leaving and going back to a vote


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

Dando said:



			Isnâ€™t the ransom part of the withdrawal agreement that our wonderful MPâ€™s wonâ€™t vote through?
		
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To be fair, part of that agreement is the EU paying the UK a share of the value of all the assets and projects the UK have contributed towards as well as them paying a % of the pensions of UK MEP's. That aspect of the deal is actually quite fair.... but maybe because the EU will be hurt by having to rejig the budgets, especially as many of the net receivers have said they won't take a drop in what they receive.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Boris will have no further power than what TM had , nothing will change with a new leader because the Tories donâ€™t have a winning vote in the HoC - and No Deal wonâ€™t be imo put back on the table - the MPâ€™s who have the power wonâ€™t allow it regardless of what Boris wants

And it imo will be delayed again - the MPâ€™s donâ€™t want to leave and will find a way to revoke leaving and going back to a vote
		
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Crikey! Please send me the lottery numbers. Just how many assumptions have you posted there?


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## Grant85 (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Boris will have no further power than what TM had , nothing will change with a new leader because the Tories donâ€™t have a winning vote in the HoC - and No Deal wonâ€™t be imo put back on the table - the MPâ€™s who have the power wonâ€™t allow it regardless of what Boris wants

And it imo will be delayed again - the MPâ€™s donâ€™t want to leave and will find a way to revoke leaving and going back to a vote
		
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Agree. 

Most likely outcome as I see it is we will enter a period of continued extension, with this being nodded through every 6 months. 

I just don't see any Tory government getting a deal through parliament, unless there is a cross party consensus for a Single Market deal. SM will be a red rag to the Brexit Party and the ERG, hence I can't see a Tory PM going with it. 

So that leaves us needing a GE or 2nd referendum to try and break the deadlock. A GE will probably result in another hung parliament. A 2nd referendum will probably lead to another close result. 

Be prepared for this thread to still be about in 5 years+


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Crikey! Please send me the lottery numbers. Just how many assumptions have you posted there?
		
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Itâ€™s just an opinion based on the last three years of mess - do you really think anything will change with a different PM , or will it just carry on with the same mess. Are MPâ€™s from Labour etc going to change their mind because Boris is the PM ? IMO a new PM wonâ€™t change things


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## ColchesterFC (May 28, 2019)

Why are most people ignoring one massive point about the UK leaving on WTO terms? A No Deal Brexit might be inconvenient for the UK and cause some problems with queues at Dover and other ports but it would be absolutely catastrophic for Ireland. There is a lot of talk about the Irish border problem but a bigger issue for Ireland's economy is the amount of their goods that come and go across the Irish Sea and through the UK. Approx 85% of Ireland's total EU freight goes via the UK (mainly out of Dublin via Liverpool and Holyhead but also to other ports). If the UK wanted to play hard ball it could stop and check every container that comes from Ireland causing massive disruption and delays, as well as stopping and checking every container that comes from the EU, through the UK, headed to Ireland.

The simple fact is that Ireland can't afford a No Deal Brexit, which also means that the EU can't allow a No Deal Brexit without cutting Ireland adrift, despite their tough talking. I have no idea why the UK negotiators didn't make more of this during the negotiations. 

Which is also my biggest problem with the idea of a 2nd referendum. To me it's not about whether a 2nd referendum would be democratic or whether people have changed their minds, it's about giving the ruling party a mandate to fail to implement anything that they really don't want to do simply by being crap at trying to do it. The UK negotiations have been pretty poor for the last 3 years and in my view they have failed to actually use any of the cards we hold to get the EU to negotiate. But why should we accept that we need a 2nd referendum simply because the government have been so incompetent that they have negotiated a crap deal? We shouldn't be looking for a 2nd referendum we should be telling the government to stop pissing about and actually get us a deal that is acceptable rather than bending over every time the EU demanded something.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s just an opinion based on the last three years of mess - do you really think anything will change with a different PM , or will it just carry on with the same mess. Are MPâ€™s from Labour etc going to change their mind because Boris is the PM ? IMO a new PM wonâ€™t change things
		
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A new PM could run the clock down and No Deal would happen by default, which is what May said if they didn't agree the deal on offer from the EU. May didn't want that, Boris might be happy with that. The French, Macron, had to have his arm put up his back to agree to the last extension. The No Deal scenario only needs one country in the EU to refuse an extension and it will happen.


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## Hacker Khan (May 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why are most people ignoring one massive point about the UK leaving on WTO terms? A No Deal Brexit might be inconvenient for the UK and cause some problems with queues at Dover and other ports but it would be absolutely catastrophic for Ireland. There is a lot of talk about the Irish border problem but a bigger issue for Ireland's economy is the amount of their goods that come and go across the Irish Sea and through the UK. Approx 85% of Ireland's total EU freight goes via the UK (mainly out of Dublin via Liverpool and Holyhead but also to other ports). If the UK wanted to play hard ball it could stop and check every container that comes from Ireland causing massive disruption and delays, as well as stopping and checking every container that comes from the EU, through the UK, headed to Ireland.

The simple fact is that Ireland can't afford a No Deal Brexit, which also means that the EU can't allow a No Deal Brexit without cutting Ireland adrift, despite their tough talking. I have no idea why the UK negotiators didn't make more of this during the negotiations.

Which is also my biggest problem with the idea of a 2nd referendum. To me it's not about whether a 2nd referendum would be democratic or whether people have changed their minds, it's about giving the ruling party a mandate to fail to implement anything that they really don't want to do simply by being crap at trying to do it. The UK negotiations have been pretty poor for the last 3 years and in my view they have failed to actually use any of the cards we hold to get the EU to negotiate. But why should we accept that we need a 2nd referendum simply because the government have been so incompetent that they have negotiated a crap deal? We shouldn't be looking for a 2nd referendum we should be telling the government to stop pissing about and actually *get us a deal that is acceptable* rather than bending over every time the EU demanded something.
		
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Acceptable to who?  What people are assuming the 52% wanted, the ERGers, the Change Ukers, a majority in parliament, etc etc.

Another way of looking at it is that we have had the finest minds in government and the civil service working on a deal and they have failed to get one yet that has the blessing of the majority in parliament. Perhaps it might be that the task is too difficult based under the circumstances they were negotiating in as the EU knew no sane UK government would go for a no deal?  But I suspect we are about to see what a slightly more insane one thinks.


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## chrisd (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Crikey! Please send me the lottery numbers. Just how many assumptions have you posted there?
		
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I agree with you Brian, but we are all guessing. I think a Leaver PM does hold some trump cards and some of the EU beaurocats will not be in power after this term. I think Boris will have a stronger hand than TM did and Corbyn is dead in the water. Nobody (including Farage) wants a no deal but the maxim "no deal is better than a bad deal" is still as true now as it was then


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## chrisd (May 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			we have had the finest minds in government
		
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I was ok till I got to this bit ðŸ˜£


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A new PM could run the clock down and No Deal would happen by default, which is what May said if they didn't agree the deal on offer from the EU. May didn't want that, Boris might be happy with that. The French, Macron, had to have his arm put up his back to agree to the last extension. The No Deal scenario only needs one country in the EU to refuse an extension and it will happen.
		
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Could ? Might ? Itâ€™s as much guess work as what I posted is it not - and will Boris have more power than May - the MPâ€™s imo wouldnâ€™t let any PM run down the clock regardless of the side of the fence they are on. Everything the MPâ€™s have done points to them not wanting a No Deal. There for me is no doubt that the EU will happily allow another extension and then again - itâ€™s in their favour.


chrisd said:



			I agree with you Brian, but we are all guessing. I think a Leaver PM does hold some trump cards and some of the EU beaurocats will not be in power after this term. I think Boris will have a stronger hand than TM did and Corbyn is dead in the water. Nobody (including Farage) wants a no deal but the maxim "no deal is better than a bad deal" is still as true now as it was then
		
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What trump cards will a â€œleave PMâ€ hold that May didnâ€™t ? And why will Boris be stronger - is it more out of hope because you are on the side of leave ? Corbyn still holds the cards in regards votes - he still has a great number of MPâ€™s that will oppose the government. What exactly is going to change when it comes to the voting in the HoC ?


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## ColchesterFC (May 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Acceptable to who?  What people are assuming the 52% wanted, the ERGers, the Change Ukers, a majority in parliament, etc etc.

Another way of looking at it is that we have had the finest minds in government, the civil service working on a deal and hey have failed. Perhaps it might be that the task is too difficult based on the circumstances they were negotiating in?
		
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Well acceptable to enough MPs to get it through the HoC would be a good start, although no doubt there would then be arguments from both sides that it either was a too hard/soft (delete as applicable) Brexit, from both MPs and the general public. 

And is the task actually too difficult, or are the "circumstances they were negotiating in" that a majority of MPs (and possibly now voters) don't actually want us to leave, and therefore why try too hard to get a good deal and risk us actually leaving? Bring back a crap deal, watch it get rejected by almost everyone from both sides of the debate and then claim it's not possible. We had some good cards that we could have played during the negotiations but it seems that we've folded them each time and let the EU dictate everything. For example, why did we allow the Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration on our future relationship to be separated? We could have demanded that both were discussed at the same time, which could have resolved the Irish border issue. And what happened to "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"?


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## drdel (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Boris will have no further power than what TM had , nothing will change with a new leader because the Tories donâ€™t have a winning vote in the HoC - and No Deal wonâ€™t be imo put back on the table - the MPâ€™s who have the power wonâ€™t allow it regardless of what Boris wants

And it imo will be delayed again - the MPâ€™s donâ€™t want to leave and will find a way to revoke leaving and going back to a vote
		
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Don't ignore the fact that post the EU elections the structure of the European Parliament will change and the new UK PM will have 28 Brexit MEPs as allies or enemies.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Don't ignore the fact that post the EU elections the structure of the European Parliament will change and the new UK PM will have 28 Brexit MEPs as allies or enemies.
		
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What difference does that make - the UK PM had 24 UKIP MEPs as allies before plus more Labour and Tory ones - now there is more Lib Dem and Green ones who are Pro Europe are they not ? Plus SNP.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I agree with you Brian, but we are all guessing. I think a Leaver PM does hold some trump cards and some of the EU beaurocats will not be in power after this term. I think Boris will have a stronger hand than TM did and Corbyn is dead in the water. Nobody (including Farage) wants a no deal but the maxim "no deal is better than a bad deal" is still as true now as it was then
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Could ? Might ? Itâ€™s as much guess work as what I posted is it not - and will Boris have more power than May - the MPâ€™s imo wouldnâ€™t let any PM run down the clock regardless of the side of the fence they are on. Everything the MPâ€™s have done points to them not wanting a No Deal. There for me is no doubt that the EU will happily allow another extension and then again - itâ€™s in their favour.


What trump cards will a â€œleave PMâ€ hold that May didnâ€™t ? And why will Boris be stronger - is it more out of hope because you are on the side of leave ? Corbyn still holds the cards in regards votes - he still has a great number of MPâ€™s that will oppose the government. What exactly is going to change when it comes to the voting in the HoC ?
		
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If it is Boris, could he pull together an experienced Cabinet? I'm not so sure he could. But no doubt there'll be some horse trading for seats/Ministries. A new PM could mean a further extension, if the EU are willing to reopen the agreement, to negotiate his/her version of a deal. But that also needs Macron onside.

But there's also the HoC still to contend with. The Tories, as we know, don't having a majority without the confidence and supply agreement. Would they dare to go for a GE? Corbyn, for all his failure over Brexit, did a fab job at the last GE and could get in on the back of the Tory vote being split with the Brexit Party.

The whole dynamic changes with the recent EU elections, a new PM and a significant nationalist presence in the EU parliament.

I haven't a clue which way it will go, but if anyone wants to send me their bank card number and pin I'll have a punt on their behalf.


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What difference does that make - the UK PM had 24 UKIP MEPs as allies before plus more Labour and Tory ones - now there is more Lib Dem and Green ones who are Pro Europe are they not ? Plus SNP.
		
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Apart from being noisy, 29 Brexit MEP's out of 700+ MEP's are just irritating gnats buzzing around in the background.


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## drdel (May 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Apart from being noisy, 29 Brexit MEP's out of 700+ MEP's are just irritating gnats buzzing around in the background.
		
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Don't ignore Italian MEPs.....


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## Hobbit (May 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Don't ignore Italian MEPs.....
		
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And Germany has 96 MEP's, France 74 and Italy has 73. With the best will in the world the nats have a majority in many countries but there's been notable swings away from them in others. I wouldn't hold my breath on help from that quarter.


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## Foxholer (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:





Hacker Khan said:



			we have had the finest minds in government
		
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I was ok till I got to this bit ðŸ˜£
		
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The 'in government' is a qualification, not a 'location'! Diane Abbott's (lack of) arithmetic skills surely demonstrate that!

But being skilled 'politically' is a completely different talent, that many/most have in abundance!


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## chrisd (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Could ? Might ? Itâ€™s as much guess work as what I posted is it not - and will Boris have more power than May - the MPâ€™s imo wouldnâ€™t let any PM run down the clock regardless of the side of the fence they are on. Everything the MPâ€™s have done points to them not wanting a No Deal. There for me is no doubt that the EU will happily allow another extension and then again - itâ€™s in their favour.


What trump cards will a â€œleave PMâ€ hold that May didnâ€™t ? And why will Boris be stronger - is it more out of hope because you are on the side of leave ? Corbyn still holds the cards in regards votes - he still has a great number of MPâ€™s that will oppose the government. What exactly is going to change when it comes to the voting in the HoC ?
		
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Well, Boris is a leaver for starters so his attitude will be more convincing.  Hes happy with no deal if there can't be one. He has several hundred Conservative MP's who will lose their jobs if there were to be a general election, I'm sure more will fall in line now they've had 2 election wake up calls recently  

Corbyn has major problems of his own


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## drdel (May 28, 2019)

Meanwhile Speaker Bercow has decided to stay on rather than retire after his 10years in office.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Well, Boris is a leaver for starters so his attitude will be more convincing.  Hes happy with no deal if there can't be one. He has several hundred Conservative MP's who will lose their jobs if there were to be a general election, I'm sure more will fall in line now they've had 2 election wake up calls recently 

Corbyn has major problems of his own
		
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More convincing? To who and isnâ€™t he the person who when the Referendum went the way of his campaigning bottled it ? 

And is he really happy with No Deal or just more of his empty words 

And if Corbyn has big issues what do the Tories have to fear in a GE ? 

I think you appear to be pining your hopes that a Leave PM will suddenly change it all around despite nothing fundamentally changing


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## Fade and Die (May 28, 2019)

If the remainers could accept the result of the original referendum I think we could move forward, then maybe go to the country with 2 options.

Leave with WTO deal or Leave but remain in the customs union...Imo most remain voters would happily swing behind the latter option, it would stop the Labour party trying to be all things to all men and would enable the issue to be put to bed, once and for all. Those Tories in parliament who will never support no deal would, I believe, immediately come onside and the threat of an immediate general election, and a Corbyn government, would be averted.
If both sides agreed to respect the result we might resolve this thing once and for all. It does need a shift of position from the remainers though.


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## chrisd (May 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			More convincing? To who and isnâ€™t he the person who when the Referendum went the way of his campaigning bottled it ?

And is he really happy with No Deal or just more of his empty words

And if Corbyn has big issues what do the Tories have to fear in a GE ?

I think you appear to be pining your hopes that a Leave PM will suddenly change it all around despite nothing fundamentally changing
		
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I'm not saying he will win so until he does it all irrelevant 

No I dont think he wants no deal  but will take it if a better deal isn't available

Both Labour and Conservatives should fear a GE after the caning in the last 2 votes

I'm not pinning MY hopes on anything, at my age I doubt either leaving or staying is going to much affect my life


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## Kellfire (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm not pinning MY hopes on anything, at my age I doubt either leaving or staying is going to much affect my life
		
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And sadly it was that attitude that arguably led us down this dreadful path in the first place, with the older generation voting down a better future for their children and their childrenâ€™s children and so on.


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## Old Skier (May 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			And sadly it was that attitude that arguably led us down this dreadful path in the first place, with the older generation voting down a better future for their children and their childrenâ€™s children and so on.
		
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And it was the children who couldn't be arrsed, once again, to go and vote. Just like the two on the news yesterday  What Election".


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## Kellfire (May 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And it was the children who couldn't be arrsed, once again, to go and vote. Just like the two on the news yesterday  What Election".
		
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Yep, if nothing else letâ€™s hope that Brexit teaches younger voters not to trust the older generation to do the right thing at the polls.


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## Old Skier (May 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Yep, if nothing else letâ€™s hope that Brexit teaches younger voters not to trust the older generation to do the right thing at the polls.
		
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Nice to know you have a sense of humor.


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## chrisd (May 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			And sadly it was that attitude that arguably led us down this dreadful path in the first place, with the older generation voting down a better future for their children and their childrenâ€™s children and so on.
		
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You misunderstand, I voted for Brexit because I'm certain that the younger generation will benefit from being out of a failing European experiment and in years to come will appreciate that they were saved from the crash when it happens ðŸ‘

Like most older Brexit voters we aren't doing it for ourselves but to give our grandchildren a much better future not harmed by unelected Europeans. They will benefit from the ability that opening up the whole world for trade etc will bring


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## Kellfire (May 28, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You misunderstand, I voted for Brexit because I'm certain that the younger generation will benefit from being out of a failing European experiment and in years to come will appreciate that they were saved from the crash when it happens ðŸ‘

Like most older Brexit voters we aren't doing it for ourselves but to give our grandchildren a much better future not harmed by unelected Europeans. They will benefit from the ability that opening up the whole world for trade etc will bring
		
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Better to listen to the younger generation and let them decide what they want. Avoids confusion and mistakes.


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## drdel (May 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Better to listen to the younger generation and let them decide what they want. Avoids confusion and mistakes.
		
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In a vast number of countries across the globe they benefit, build on and choose to learn from the previous generation


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## Papas1982 (May 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Better to listen to the younger generation and let them decide what they want. *Avoids confusion and mistakes*.
		
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Whilst i can see logic in suggesting that those most affected should have the choice. What suggests that youth and most likely lack of experience will avoid mistakes being made?


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## SocketRocket (May 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Better to listen to the younger generation and let them decide what they want. Avoids confusion and mistakes.
		
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No it doesn't.   I don't see a young generation that have a vision and clarity of thought that would steer the country in the right direction.  They are no different than any other previous young generation, maybe worse ln many cases due to the influence of social media and feelings of entitlement.   Life experience exposes charlatans and political BS.


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## Dando (May 29, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Better to listen to the younger generation and let them decide what they want. Avoids confusion and mistakes.
		
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You mean the younger generation who couldnâ€™t be arsed to vote?


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## chrisd (May 29, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Better to listen to the younger generation and let them decide what they want. Avoids confusion and mistakes.
		
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If that were the case we'd have the kids telling the parents what time to go to bed etc

 Having said that, there are a generation of young people who always think they know best but realise in later life all their "I know what's best for me" is nothing more than the arrogance of youth. There are some younger people on this forum who always know best ðŸ‘


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## Kellfire (May 29, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			What suggests that youth and most likely lack of experience will avoid mistakes being made?
		
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The age range of the Brexit referendum in 2016.


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## Papas1982 (May 29, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			The age range of the Brexit referendum in 2016.
		
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How does that prove anything? Nobody knows what a Brexit will actually entail. It's all just he said, she said. So your simply basing your confidence on youth on nothing more than the fact they voted the way you wanted them too as opposed to any actual proof.


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## Hobbit (May 29, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			The age range of the Brexit referendum in 2016.
		
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Thereâ€™s one indispensable fact surrounding that referendum. The youth had a massive opportunity but many didnâ€™t bother voting. Thatâ€™s how much the youth cared about the issue.

The people that cared about the U.K. voted. And where were the younger ones?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2019)

Whoa a lot of statements here being thrown at the younger generation that isnâ€™t great

Younger generation not having the clarity to steer the country in the â€œrightâ€ direction ?! Whatâ€™s the right direction - is that the direction you want it to go towards , since when does it make it â€œrightâ€ ?

Shall we just stop them voting then ? If they clearly donâ€™t know what is best for the country why bother letting them vote - what age shall we start allowing them a voice ?

You â€œolder generation â€œ were allowed to shape your future - were given a voice so why canâ€™t the current younger generation be allowed to shape their future ?

How arrogant is it to dismiss them with such disdain

The older generation stating - Iâ€™m certain the youth will benefit from my decision? What if you are wrong - what make your decision more right than theirs ? They are the ones working day and night alongside their neighbours and can see the benefits that brings - maybe instead of presuming what you think is right for the â€œyounger generationâ€ actually ask them what they want and how they want to move forward- itâ€™s them that will have to live with whatever decision is made so maybe itâ€™s best they make the choice as opposed to people who wonâ€™t be affected

Maybe the best way is to cut off the vote at say anyone who is still working only and under the age of 60 - thatâ€™s who itâ€™s going to affected

And yes for the referendum there was just 50% of people aged between 18 and 30 I think it was who voted - could be for all manner of reasons beyond â€œnot caringâ€ but I have a feeling if there was a second vote there would be a very big turnout from them. The younger generation want to stay in the EU , they see the benefits and it appears want to keep that strong relationship in their futures - surely that canâ€™t be dismissed so easily.


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## Papas1982 (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Whoa a lot of statements here being thrown at the younger generation that isnâ€™t great*

Younger generation not having the clarity to steer the country in the â€œrightâ€ direction ?! Whatâ€™s the right direction - is that the direction you want it to go towards , since when does it make it â€œrightâ€ ?

Shall we just stop them voting then ? If they clearly donâ€™t know what is best for the country why bother letting them vote - what age shall we start allowing them a voice ?

You â€œolder generation â€œ were allowed to shape your future - were given a voice so why canâ€™t the current younger generation be allowed to shape their future ?

How arrogant is it to dismiss them with such disdain

The older generation stating - Iâ€™m certain the youth will benefit from my decision? What if you are wrong - what make your decision more right than theirs ? They are the ones working day and night alongside their neighbours and can see the benefits that brings - maybe instead of presuming what you think is right for the â€œyounger generationâ€ actually ask them what they want and how they want to move forward- itâ€™s them that will have to live with whatever decision is made so maybe itâ€™s best they make the choice as opposed to people who wonâ€™t be affected

Maybe the best way is to cut off the vote at say anyone who is still working only and under the age of 60 - thatâ€™s who itâ€™s going to affected

And yes for the referendum there was just 50% of people aged between 18 and 30 I think it was who voted - could be for all manner of reasons beyond â€œnot caringâ€ but I have a feeling if there was a second vote there would be a very big turnout from them. The younger generation want to stay in the EU , they see the benefits and it appears want to keep that strong relationship in their futures - surely that canâ€™t be dismissed so easily.
		
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Over dramatic much???

All those comments were made in response to a comment where the older generation were told they'd effectively ruined the youngsters future. 
I saw as little respect shown to the older guys as you've apparently seen disdain shown towards younger folk.


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## Hobbit (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Whoa a lot of statements here being thrown at the younger generation that isnâ€™t great

Younger generation not having the clarity to steer the country in the â€œrightâ€ direction ?! Whatâ€™s the right direction - is that the direction you want it to go towards , since when does it make it â€œrightâ€ ?

Shall we just stop them voting then ? If they clearly donâ€™t know what is best for the country why bother letting them vote - what age shall we start allowing them a voice ?

You â€œolder generation â€œ were allowed to shape your future - were given a voice so why canâ€™t the current younger generation be allowed to shape their future ?

How arrogant is it to dismiss them with such disdain

The older generation stating - Iâ€™m certain the youth will benefit from my decision? What if you are wrong - what make your decision more right than theirs ? They are the ones working day and night alongside their neighbours and can see the benefits that brings - maybe instead of presuming what you think is right for the â€œyounger generationâ€ actually ask them what they want and how they want to move forward- itâ€™s them that will have to live with whatever decision is made so maybe itâ€™s best they make the choice as opposed to people who wonâ€™t be affected

Maybe the best way is to cut off the vote at say anyone who is still working only and under the age of 60 - thatâ€™s who itâ€™s going to affected

And yes for the referendum there was just 50% of people aged between 18 and 30 I think it was who voted - could be for all manner of reasons beyond â€œnot caringâ€ but I have a feeling if there was a second vote there would be a very big turnout from them. The younger generation want to stay in the EU , they see the benefits and it appears want to keep that strong relationship in their futures - surely that canâ€™t be dismissed so easily.
		
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The only point I made was they didn't vote when they had the chance. I didn't state how they might have voted.

But a question back at you, and using a few of your words; how arrogant is it to dismiss the older generation by suggesting they no longer vote if they aren't working and have reached 60? And does that mean that all the young ones at uni, i.e. not working shouldn't be allowed to vote?

Your post is just as appalling as those decrying the younger generation. You tar yourself, very well, with the same brush.


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2019)

Kiss me where the sun don't shine 
The past was yours 
But the future's mine


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The only point I made was they didn't vote when they had the chance. I didn't state how they might have voted.

But a question back at you, and using a few of your words; how arrogant is it to dismiss the older generation by suggesting they no longer vote if they aren't working and have reached 60? And does that mean that all the young ones at uni, i.e. not working shouldn't be allowed to vote?

Your post is just as appalling as those decrying the younger generation. You tar yourself, very well, with the same brush.
		
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Some didnâ€™t vote - for many reasons , lack of understanding , engagement, busy lives , being disenchanted by the whole political process , a lack of trust - many reasons beyond just â€œnot caringâ€

Why is it â€œarrogant â€œ to suggest a vote should only be given to someone who will be affected directly by the results ? People in Uni will be affected because itâ€™s their future is it not ? But if someone is retired , no longer needs to work , doesnâ€™t benefit from the UK being in the EU and it wonâ€™t affect them either way why should they have a say. Itâ€™s just a counter to people suggesting that the youth arenâ€™t capable


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## chrisd (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Whoa a lot of statements here being thrown at the younger generation that isnâ€™t great

Younger generation not having the clarity to steer the country in the â€œrightâ€ direction ?! Whatâ€™s the right direction - is that the direction you want it to go towards , since when does it make it â€œrightâ€ ?

Shall we just stop them voting then ? If they clearly donâ€™t know what is best for the country why bother letting them vote - what age shall we start allowing them a voice ?

You â€œolder generation â€œ were allowed to shape your future - were given a voice so why canâ€™t the current younger generation be allowed to shape their future ?

How arrogant is it to dismiss them with such disdain

The older generation stating - Iâ€™m certain the youth will benefit from my decision? What if you are wrong - what make your decision more right than theirs ? They are the ones working day and night alongside their neighbours and can see the benefits that brings - maybe instead of presuming what you think is right for the â€œyounger generationâ€ actually ask them what they want and how they want to move forward- itâ€™s them that will have to live with whatever decision is made so maybe itâ€™s best they make the choice as opposed to people who wonâ€™t be affected

Maybe the best way is to cut off the vote at say anyone who is still working only and under the age of 60 - thatâ€™s who itâ€™s going to affected

And yes for the referendum there was just 50% of people aged between 18 and 30 I think it was who voted - could be for all manner of reasons beyond â€œnot caringâ€ but I have a feeling if there was a second vote there would be a very big turnout from them. The younger generation want to stay in the EU , they see the benefits and it appears want to keep that strong relationship in their futures - surely that canâ€™t be dismissed so easily.
		
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When many here were young we didn't get to vote until we were 21 as, I assume, it was thought that we didn't have enough life experience to fully understand what we were voting for. Many if us had left school at 15 and were in full time work and were probably as streetwise as any 20+ year old is today.

We know at 65 much more than we knew at 25 and, has been said before, in other cultures the young defer to the elderly for advice and I'm reasonably assured that most 65 year olds understand life, and the ramification of decisions made better than most 25 year olds. If, however, the younger generation who qualified to vote in the referendum had bothered to get themselves down to the polling station and vote then they maybe could have achieved the outcomes they wanted, assuming the majority who didn't vote would be remainers which is by no means a given. Clearly they are not as clever as you may think if they couldn't work out that there vote mattered. 

Finally, only history and opinion will tell if decisions made now were right or wrong and the younger generation of now will undoubtedly be told in time by the youngsters of the future how they've messed it up but you know what  - if you change things you can never truly know what would have happened had you steered the original course


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## Hobbit (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Some didnâ€™t vote - for many reasons , lack of understanding , engagement, busy lives , being disenchanted by the whole political process , a lack of trust - many reasons beyond just â€œnot caringâ€

Why is it â€œarrogant â€œ to suggest a vote should only be given to someone who will be affected directly by the results ? People in Uni will be affected because itâ€™s their future is it not ? But if someone is retired , no longer needs to work , doesnâ€™t benefit from the UK being in the EU and it wonâ€™t affect them either way why should they have a say. Itâ€™s just a counter to people suggesting that the youth arenâ€™t capable
		
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You are making excuses for them, poor, weak excuses. Funnily enough those same excuses could be applied to any age group. And it was you that stereotyped a demographic by age and first used the word arrogance around it. Don't try and squirm out from under. Your post is as appallingly bad as those who decried the young.

I've worked extensively with the young. They are, in the main, very intelligent, articulate and have boundless energy, especially when its something they're interested in. But if they are not interested..... they didn't vote.

You dismiss the old with the same arrogance some of the old dismissed the young. You should be ashamed of yourself. Honestly, you've hit a new low with this one.


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## Papas1982 (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Some didnâ€™t vote - for many reasons , lack of understanding , engagement, busy lives , being disenchanted by the whole political process , a lack of trust - many reasons beyond just â€œnot caringâ€

Why is it â€œarrogant â€œ to suggest a vote should only be given to someone who will be affected directly by the results ? People in Uni will be affected because itâ€™s their future is it not ? But if someone is retired , no longer needs to work , *doesnâ€™t benefit from the UK being in the EU* and it wonâ€™t affect them either way why should they have a say. Itâ€™s just a counter to people suggesting that the youth arenâ€™t capable
		
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How does that matter? Lots of people donâ€™t directly benefit from being in the Eu. If none of those voted. Thatâ€™d include a lot of the youngsters too.


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## patricks148 (May 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Kiss me where the sun don't shine
The past was yours
But the future's mine
		
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you're all out of tiiimme.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You are making excuses for them, poor, weak excuses. Funnily enough those same excuses could be applied to any age group. And it was you that stereotyped a demographic by age and first used the word arrogance around it. Don't try and squirm out from under. Your post is as appallingly bad as those who decried the young.

I've worked extensively with the young. They are, in the main, very intelligent, articulate and have boundless energy, especially when its something they're interested in. But if they are not interested..... they didn't vote.

You dismiss the old with the same arrogance some of the old dismissed the young. You should be ashamed of yourself. Honestly, you've hit a new low with this one.
		
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Making excuse ? Nah giving reasons , reasons that young people gave for not voting first time - there was also the ones that placed their trust in their elders to look after their future , going by recent reports over the last couple of years a great deal amount of them seem let down by the elders for voting to leave. 

A lot of negative posts about the youth over the last 12 hours - if you believe you trust the youth then I donâ€™t see you countering the various posts on here from people downtrodding their abilities for the future 

And I donâ€™t have anything to be ashamed about - I believe the youth should be able to make their own choices and not have older generation make them for them and dismiss them so easily. They are the countries future they are the ones who have to deal with the decisions and maybe itâ€™s time people listened to them - if they make mistakes so be it , everyone else has - mistakes will always be made but it wonâ€™t be by the people voting but by the people everyone entrusts with the power.


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## Hobbit (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Making excuse ? Nah giving reasons , reasons that young people gave for not voting first time - there was also the ones that placed their trust in their elders to look after their future , going by recent reports over the last couple of years a great deal amount of them seem let down by the elders for voting to leave.

A lot of negative posts about the youth over the last 12 hours - if you believe you trust the youth then I donâ€™t see you countering the various posts on here from people downtrodding their abilities for the future

And I donâ€™t have anything to be ashamed about - I believe the youth should be able to make their own choices and not have older generation make them for them and dismiss them so easily. They are the countries future they are the ones who have to deal with the decisions and maybe itâ€™s time people listened to them - if they make mistakes so be it , everyone else has - mistakes will always be made but it wonâ€™t be by the people voting but by the people everyone entrusts with the power.
		
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You have discriminated against the old. DISCRIMINATION. One of the very worst facets of any society, and you're guilty of it. If you can't see that I pity you. You perpetuate the divisions in society that many would like to see ended. Rather than engage with reasoned argument you suggest the old shouldn't have a say. Very poor form Phil. Sit back and have think about the position you've chosen in this, i.e. to discriminate.

As for the youth, I believe the voting age should be reduced to 16. I trust the young.

The younger generation have the same opportunity as the old to vote. And when the results of a vote are declared, if it comes out that a particular demographic has won, thats democracy.


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			When many here were young we didn't get to vote until we were 21 as, I assume, it was thought that we didn't have enough life experience to fully understand what we were voting for. Many if us had left school at 15 and were in full time work and were probably as streetwise as any 20+ year old is today.

*We know at 65 much more than we knew at 25 and, has been said before, in other cultures the young defer to the elderly for advice and I'm reasonably assured that most 65 year olds understand life, and the ramification of decisions made better than most 25 year olds.* If, however, the younger generation who qualified to vote in the referendum had bothered to get themselves down to the polling station and vote then they maybe could have achieved the outcomes they wanted, assuming the majority who didn't vote would be remainers which is by no means a given. Clearly they are not as clever as you may think if they couldn't work out that there vote mattered.

Finally, only history and opinion will tell if decisions made now were right or wrong and the younger generation of now will undoubtedly be told in time by the youngsters of the future how they've messed it up but you know what  - if you change things you can never truly know what would have happened had you steered the original course
		
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Pure conjecture, you are equating age with wisdom, surviving on this earth with understanding the current socio-economic and environmental climate.  

I could just as easily say I know plenty of over 65s who are completely out of touch with modern society, stuck in the past, fear change in an increasingly rapidly changing technological society, most modern technology confuses and scares them, automation means a lot of the skills they had are no longer relevant, they still get all their views on life from the Daily Telegraph, they are analogue in a digital world and I wouldn't trust them to make a sensible decision on the future of the country based on its current political, social and environmental challenges in a million years.  But enough about my parents, I still love them anyway.  But give me the choice between listening to and agreeing with my 13 year old daughter or my parents on the biggest challenges facing society and the best way forwards then truth be told, it's not a clear cut decision by any means. 

There are some stupid out of touch old people and some lazy feckless young people, as well as some very plugged in elderly people and engaged young people. They all had a chance to vote, some took that chance and some did not. Dismissing the views of the young as they did not vote in large numbers is dangerous IMHO but I expect those that did not will not make the some mistake again. Which fills me with some optimism for the future.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You have discriminated against the old. DISCRIMINATION. One of the very worst facets of any society, and you're guilty of it. If you can't see that I pity you. You perpetuate the divisions in society that many would like to see ended. Rather than engage with reasoned argument you suggest the old shouldn't have a say. Very poor form Phil. Sit back and have think about the position you've chosen in this, i.e. to discriminate.

As for the youth, I believe the voting age should be reduced to 16. I trust the young.

The younger generation have the same opportunity as the old to vote. And when the results of a vote are declared, if it comes out that a particular demographic has won, thats democracy.
		
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But the elderly have made a complete Horlicks of it since 1980 and have compounded their errors since.
Desperately denying 16/17 year olds voting rights.
A Parliament mechanism that belongs either in a museum or a madhouse.
A Press and TV news system that is feeding the vulnerable lies and propaganda. [slowly getting sorted out by social media].
Time for wholesale change


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			The age range of the Brexit referendum in 2016.
		
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You need to address the younger generation.  Who's fault is it that they don't wish to engage. Bleating about something the older generation have no control over.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Whoa a lot of statements here being thrown at the younger generation that isnâ€™t great

Younger generation not having the clarity to steer the country in the â€œrightâ€ direction ?! Whatâ€™s the right direction - is that the direction you want it to go towards , since when does it make it â€œrightâ€ ?

Shall we just stop them voting then ? If they clearly donâ€™t know what is best for the country why bother letting them vote - what age shall we start allowing them a voice ?

You â€œolder generation â€œ were allowed to shape your future - were given a voice so why canâ€™t the current younger generation be allowed to shape their future ?

How arrogant is it to dismiss them with such disdain

The older generation stating - Iâ€™m certain the youth will benefit from my decision? What if you are wrong - what make your decision more right than theirs ? They are the ones working day and night alongside their neighbours and can see the benefits that brings - maybe instead of presuming what you think is right for the â€œyounger generationâ€ actually ask them what they want and how they want to move forward- itâ€™s them that will have to live with whatever decision is made so maybe itâ€™s best they make the choice as opposed to people who wonâ€™t be affected

Maybe the best way is to cut off the vote at say anyone who is still working only and under the age of 60 - thatâ€™s who itâ€™s going to affected

And yes for the referendum there was just 50% of people aged between 18 and 30 I think it was who voted - could be for all manner of reasons beyond â€œnot caringâ€ but I have a feeling if there was a second vote there would be a very big turnout from them. The younger generation want to stay in the EU , they see the benefits and it appears want to keep that strong relationship in their futures - surely that canâ€™t be dismissed so easily.
		
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It's not about stopping the youth voting. How did you come to that conclusions.  It's about exactly the opposite,  the younger voters not bothering.  

We gave a remainer posting and clutching at straws as to why remain lost. Blame those that failed to vote if the poster is so certain they were going to vote remain. How he came to that conclusions God only knows.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			But the elderly have made a complete Horlicks of it since 1980 and have compounded their errors since.
Desperately denying 16/17 year olds voting rights.
A Parliament mechanism that belongs either in a museum or a madhouse.
A Press and TV news system that is feeding the vulnerable lies and propaganda. [slowly getting sorted out by social media].
Time for wholesale change
		
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The momentum solution.


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## MegaSteve (May 29, 2019)

The now elderly were probably amongst the pillocks that were hoodwinked into voting to join in the first place... Everyone I was listening to, politically, back in the day warned the 'working class' would pay the highest penalty for joining... And, so it came to pass...


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			The now elderly were probably amongst the pillocks that were hoodwinked into voting to join in the first place... Everyone I was listening to, politically, back in the day warned the 'working class' would pay the highest penalty for joining... And, so it came to pass...
		
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What penalty exactly do you believe the â€œworking classâ€ has paid because of joining the EU ?


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You need to address the younger generation.  *Who's fault is it that they don't wish to engage*. Bleating about something the older generation have no control over.
		
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A political system and discourse that is no longer for for purpose (I've seen more adult behaviour in KS1 classes than most PMQs),  is increasingly polarised, full of people at the top level that are mostly in it for personal gain or to forwards their own specific ideology and that mostly does not reflect or address the concerns of a younger generation?


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## chrisd (May 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Pure conjecture, you are equating age with wisdom, surviving on this earth with understanding the current socio-economic and environmental climate.

I could just as easily say I know plenty of over 65s who are completely out of touch with modern society, stuck in the past, fear change in an increasingly rapidly changing technological society, most modern technology confuses and scares them, automation means a lot of the skills they had are no longer relevant, they still get all their views on life from the Daily Telegraph, they are analogue in a digital world and I wouldn't trust them to make a sensible decision on the future of the country based on its current political, social and environmental challenges in a million years.  But enough about my parents, I still love them anyway.  But give me the choice between listening to and agreeing with my 13 year old daughter or my parents on the biggest challenges facing society and the best way forwards then truth be told, it's not a clear cut decision by any means.

There are some stupid out of touch old people and some lazy feckless young people, as well as some very plugged in elderly people and engaged young people. They all had a chance to vote, some took that chance and some did not. Dismissing the views of the young as they did not vote in large numbers is dangerous IMHO but I expect those that did not will not make the some mistake again. Which fills me with some optimism for the future.
		
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For the great majority age brings wisdom. We all know idiots across the generations but equally we know wise old and young people but, taking a cross section, the average 65 year old will have more life experiences to guide their decision making than the average 17 year old.

Even if you just isolate voting, a large percentage of youngsters didn't vote in the referendum wheras older people did because experience tells them that their views count, I suspect that many youngsters will not make the same mistake a second time. 

People mature as they age, they learn from their elders they need guidance until eventually they can form their own opinions which, of course could be polar opposite of their parents/teachers view but they have to start from some taught learning. I'm sure your 13 year old is aware of challenges etc and that she maybe able to teach your parents a thing or two but I doubt at that age she is fully rounded enough in life skills to have as many right answers as your parents - the old teach the young, the young take in what they want, change what they don't and then teach their young what they believe is right and do on .....


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			A political system and discourse that is no longer for for purpose (I've seen more adult behaviour in KS1 classes than most PMQs),  is increasingly polarised, full of people at the top level that are mostly in it for personal gain or to forwards their own specific ideology and that mostly does not reflect or address the concerns of a younger generation?
		
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Change is needed, change can only be achieved by participating.


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Change is needed, change can only be achieved by participating.
		
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I agree, and they have learned that the hard way.


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I agree, and they have learned that the hard way.
		
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I'm not convinced but I hope your right but if that was true I would expect a greater turnout than we just had.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 29, 2019)

It does seem that whoever becomes Tory leader and thus PM, will be faced with getting their deal ( or no deal) voted through the HoC.
However, taking the view that the referendum ,by definition , is a greater "power to decide" than the HoC, the Government should take us out of the EU, and leave the HoC out of it.
Now someone is going to point out ,rightly,that somewhere along the line the judges were approached to rule that the final say on a deal, should rest with Parliament, and thus we have the ensuing fiasco.
I argue that who the hell are the judges to decide that the Government cannot implement the will of the people? We have a vote involving millions, any adult in the Country who wants to vote, called a referendum, and then some few judges can ignore all that and pass the issue to a few hundred to decide instead?
The new PM should be looking to find a way , if at all possible, to overrule those judges  and HoC and get on with doing what the Country instructed.
There must be a legal requirement somewhere that referenda results are binding. Otherwise , what is the point??.


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It does seem that whoever becomes Tory leader and thus PM, will be faced with getting their deal ( or no deal) voted through the HoC.
*However, taking the view that the referendum ,by definition , is a greater "power to decide" than the HoC*,* the Government should take us out of the EU, and leave the HoC out of it.*
Now someone is going to point out ,rightly,that somewhere along the line the judges were approached to rule that the final say on a deal, should rest with Parliament, and thus we have the ensuing fiasco.
I* argue that who the hell are the judges to decide that the Government cannot implement the will of the people? *We have a vote involving millions, any adult in the Country who wants to vote, called a referendum, and then some few judges can ignore all that and pass the issue to a few hundred to decide instead?
*The new PM should be looking to find a way , if at all possible, to overrule those judges  and HoC *and get on with doing what the Country instructed.
There must be a legal requirement somewhere that referenda results are binding. Otherwise , what is the point??.
		
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*"However, taking the view that the referendum ,by definition , is a greater "power to decide" than the HoC"* No it is not. The referendum was advisory, we live in a representative democracy where we elect representatives to parliament to make decisions for us.

Also the judges have not decided that parliament can not implement the will of the people, they have not told parliament how to vote.  The government are not able to get enough votes to get a majority in parliament to take us out of the EU, again, not the judges fault. And as for advocating PMs over ruling judges and a representative democracy then best of luck with that, what can possibly go wrong....


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## Grant85 (May 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			When many here were young we didn't get to vote until we were 21 as, I assume, it was thought that we didn't have enough life experience to fully understand what we were voting for. Many if us had left school at 15 and were in full time work and were probably as streetwise as any 20+ year old is today.

We know at 65 much more than we knew at 25 and, has been said before, in other cultures the young defer to the elderly for advice and I'm reasonably assured that most 65 year olds understand life, and the ramification of decisions made better than most 25 year olds. If, however, the younger generation who qualified to vote in the referendum had bothered to get themselves down to the polling station and vote then they maybe could have achieved the outcomes they wanted, assuming the majority who didn't vote would be remainers which is by no means a given. Clearly they are not as clever as you may think if they couldn't work out that there vote mattered.

Finally, only history and opinion will tell if decisions made now were right or wrong and the younger generation of now will undoubtedly be told in time by the youngsters of the future how they've messed it up but you know what  - if you change things you can never truly know what would have happened had you steered the original course
		
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A number of younger people choosing not to vote is not a reason to exclude 16 and 17 year olds who want to vote. 

Voter engagement has generally reduced through the decades with people of all ages being less inclined to vote at the various elections that seem to take place almost every year. 

If 16 & 17 year olds want to vote and actually choose to, then I'd argue that those who choose to will be far more engaged than your average 70 year old who has probably voted Labour or Tory in every election that they can remember. 

I just can't see any negatives at all for allowing more people to vote. Politics is already rigged towards older people given the demographics mean the main parties would be foolish not to tilt their manifestos towards the over 50s (even if turnout was uniform between the age groups) so let the younger people have their say.


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## adam6177 (May 29, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I just can't see any negatives at all for allowing more people to vote..
		
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As a stand alone statement I cant disagree, but playing devils advocate.....would you be happy for 16/17 year olds to have a influence on your life of this sort?


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## Grant85 (May 29, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			As a stand alone statement I cant disagree, but playing devils advocate.....would you be happy for 16/17 year olds to have a influence on your life of this sort?
		
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I would be delighted. 

Certainly happier for them to have influence than I am with 85 year olds who can't remember what they had for breakfast.


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## chrisd (May 29, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			A number of younger people choosing not to vote is not a reason to exclude 16 and 17 year olds who want to vote.

Voter engagement has generally reduced through the decades with people of all ages being less inclined to vote at the various elections that seem to take place almost every year.

If 16 & 17 year olds want to vote and actually choose to, then I'd argue that those who choose to will be far more engaged than your average 70 year old who has probably voted Labour or Tory in every election that they can remember.

I just can't see any negatives at all for allowing more people to vote. Politics is already rigged towards older people given the demographics mean the main parties would be foolish not to tilt their manifestos towards the over 50s (even if turnout was uniform between the age groups) so let the younger people have their say.
		
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If a 70 year old had always voted for a particular party that is their democratic right, it doesn't mean that they are less engaged, in fact it could mean quite the opposite. I dont know anyone who doesn't vote for the party who doesn't best suit their own narrative. If 16 and 17 year olds are mature enough to understand the ramifications of placing their vote where they do, I'm personally fine with that.

As I posted earlier we weren't able to vote until we were 21 which was changed to 18 in 1970. I had been at work  for 3 years, paid tax and was allowed to get married, have children or join the army and see active service before I was deemed competent to vote! Now they want to vote whilst at school- good idea for some but not others imo, you're still arguing with them what time they have to get home from McDonalds at 16, and where do you draw the line? 15, 14 ?? because there will always be calls to lower the limit.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1133674448127713282
Oh dear


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## Kellfire (May 29, 2019)

Someone might say - "With age comes knowledge and wisdom". Yes, that's often true.


However, I would counter with - "With age can also come becoming entrenched in your ignorant views (sexism, racism) and a feeling of superiority (IT WEREN'T LIKE THIS IN MY DAY, WE NEED TO GET THIS COUNTRY BACK FROM THE MESS IT'S IN)"

The country is NOT in the mess some people would have us believe. We are overall a very happy society. Having close trading and cultural ties with the EU has improved this country, both economically and socially. In my experience, it is the older generation who are close to retirement or already retired that have this distorted view that the UK is nothing more than a breeding ground for hate and depravity and only a return to pure sovereignty (I love when people pretend they care about sovereignty when they really mean "Britain for Britons!!!!") will save us from this downfall.

We have many ills in society - as do all countries. We have poverty, we have unemployment, we have people that struggle in our cultures but we also have a massive history of overcoming these issues in a better way than other countries. I admire the way we accept immigrants on the whole and try to help them lead better lives. I love our NHS and I'm proud to have worked for it for nearly ten years, doing my little bit to help others in what capacity I do have. Look at my own little part of the UK, Northern Ireland - look at the changes I witnessed in my 25 years living here.

I've digressed a bit, as is my wont at times, but for all those who think I just make inflammatory statements for the sake of it, I hope that you'll actually see that if I disagree with you in the strongest possible terms it's because I can see all the positives we have had in the past, and would continue to have as part of the EU and also that federalism isn't necessarily a bad thing!

National pride isn't a good thing - it's toxic and, in my view, is often followed closely by a shunning of all things foreign without due diligence of the benefits.


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## chrisd (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1133674448127713282
Oh dear
		
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A private prosecution though


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## adam6177 (May 29, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I would be delighted.

Certainly happier for them to have influence than I am with 85 year olds who can't remember what they had for breakfast.
		
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I dont know your stance on brexit, so forgive me....but if the media lead us to believe that most 16/17 year olds wanted to leave the EU would you still feel the same?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I dont know your stance on brexit, so forgive me....but if the media lead us to believe that most 16/17 year olds wanted to leave the EU would you still feel the same?
		
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It would not change my mind but I would be extremely worried about why young voters were voting for UK isolation


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## IanM (May 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It would not change my mind but I would be extremely worried about why young voters were voting for UK isolation
		
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Really'??   Not isolation, it is engagement with the whole planet, without a drunk from Luxembourg telling us who we can and cant deal with.    (AND Germany still need to sell  us their cars...) 

You know all this, but your trolling continues


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## Papas1982 (May 29, 2019)

My thoughts re under 18 pâ€™s voting is that most that support it are off a certain view re brexit and allowing the younger folk to vote would suit their agenda. 

Imo imo 15-20 years when these folk have 16 year old children I wonder if theyâ€™ll ever utter the phrase â€œnot under my roofâ€ or words to that effect. Most parents still have to effectively babysit or man manage their children at their age. They simply donâ€™t have the maturity imo to understand fully the repercussions.

I base that opinion on meeting approx 1000 16-18 yr olds over the last 5 years through my missus work and seeing how reliant they still are on their parents.


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## adam6177 (May 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It would not change my mind but I would be extremely worried about why young voters were voting for UK isolation
		
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IMO they'd voting for the complete opposite by voting leave.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			IMO they'd voting for the complete opposite by voting leave.
		
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Or they can make their own mind up and make their own decision based on how they want their future to look like - right now a country that is thriving within a union with the EU and multiple trade deals all over the world.


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

IanM said:



			... *without a drunk from Luxembourg telling us who we can and cant deal with.*   ...
		
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It amazes me that he's still the only person in Europe who makes the rules - you'd think there'd be a parliament of sorts (perhaps made up of elected officials from the member states) who'd make these decisions, not just one man?


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## drdel (May 29, 2019)

IMO arguing about old or young is pointless. I worked in Universities for decades and know how volatile students can be as  they form their views? For young people it is a question of maturity.  Some will  be still be in puberty at 16/17 with ragng hormones but mentality mature: it will be the reverse for others. Similarly order people may be entrenched in the past others will not.

In a group of 70 million people the generalisation society has to make in order to functions will always have exceptions. It is however dangerous to always bend to the loud minority. 

Democracy replies on respecting the need to accept majority decisions: lose that principle and you'll lose stability. If you want evidence see the HoC


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



*"However, taking the view that the referendum ,by definition , is a greater "power to decide" than the HoC"* No it is not. The referendum was advisory, we live in a representative democracy where we elect representatives to parliament to make decisions for us.

Also the judges have not decided that parliament can not implement the will of the people, they have not told parliament how to vote.  The government are not able to get enough votes to get a majority in parliament to take us out of the EU, again, not the judges fault. And as for advocating PMs over ruling judges and a representative democracy then best of luck with that, what can possibly go wrong....
		
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Explain how we can have a representative democracy where our representatives don't represent our views.  Parliament asked us to decide for them and now many are doing all they can to frustrate the result


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1133674448127713282
Oh dear
		
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First Project Fear, now Project Smear! Is there no depth to how low the remainer establishment will stoop to stop Brexit?


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

Bingo.....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/29/voted-remain-delusional-remainers-damaging-britain/


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			First Project Fear, now Project Smear! Is there no depth to how low the remainer *establishment *will stoop to stop Brexit?
		
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Hardly the establishment, it's a private citizen who crowd funded his project.

Also, he isn't stopping Brexit, just aiming to hold a politician to account for, just one, of his lies.


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## drdel (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			First Project Fear, now Project Smear! Is there no depth to how low the remainer establishment will stoop to stop Brexit?
		
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Total waste of court time and money, its not as if everyone thought it was his personal calculation and believed only him. Twas hype on both sides.

On this basis we could fill the courts with MPs.


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Hardly the establishment, it's a private citizen who crowd funded his project.

Also, he isn't stopping Brexit, just aiming to hold a politician to account for, just one, of his lies.
		
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Marcus Ball raised Â£200k by crowdfunding (my arse )to take Boris to court.

So old Boris is being forced to appear in court because of  a private prosecution about a statement made about how much we pay to the EU each week, and the magistrate has allowed it to be taken forward to crown court. The bias couldnâ€™t be made more obvious.


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## spongebob59 (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Marcus Ball raised Â£200k by crowdfunding (my arse )to take Boris to court.

So old Boris is being forced to appear in court because of  a private prosecution about a statement made about how much we pay to the EU each week, and the magistrate has allowed it to be taken forward to crown court. The bias couldnâ€™t be made more obvious.
		
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https://order-order.com/2019/05/29/embarrassing-anti-boris-pitch-raise-2-million-gullible-remainers/


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://order-order.com/2019/05/29/embarrassing-anti-boris-pitch-raise-2-million-gullible-remainers/

Click to expand...

Disgraceful, but very little light will be shone on it because he is backed by the establishment.


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## MegaSteve (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What penalty exactly do you believe the â€œworking classâ€ has paid because of joining the EU ?
		
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No intention of going back and forth on this as it's been covered many times already...

Perhaps if you had been sent down the road or seen good mates being given their marching orders due to Brussels persistent favouring of continental industry/businesses over the UK you'd, perhaps, have a better understanding of where I am coming from...


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Marcus Ball raised Â£200k by crowdfunding (my arse )to take Boris to court.

So old Boris is being forced to appear in court because of  a private prosecution about a statement made about how much we pay to the EU each week, and the magistrate has allowed it to be taken forward to crown court. The bias couldnâ€™t be made more obvious.
		
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Got nothing to do with stopping Brexit though, has it!


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

All the claims by the Remain Campaign and the treasury destroyed.....




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=428048097769009


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## drdel (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Disgraceful, but very little light will be shone on it because he is backed by the establishment.
		
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So EU budget's requirement is 165.8 bill. UK due to pay just under 13% over 52 weeks a bit over 400m. The bus message did not say it will all go to NHS it also didn't specify any dates.


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## Kellfire (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			All the claims by the Remain Campaign and the treasury destroyed.....




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=428048097769009



Click to expand...


We havenâ€™t left...


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			No intention of going back and forth on this as it's been covered many times already...

Perhaps if you had been sent down the road or seen good mates being given their marching orders due to Brussels persistent favouring of continental industry/businesses over the UK you'd, perhaps, have a better understanding of where I am coming from...
		
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Sorry but Iâ€™m not sure where you are coming from ? Brussels favouring continental businesses? Do you have any examples ?


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			We havenâ€™t left...
		
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Devastating reply.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Devastating reply.
		
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But factually correct though ? 

We donâ€™t know the effects of the leaving the EU yet because we are still within the EU are we not ? Still enjoying the benefits of being within the trade markets etc etc


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But factually correct though ?

We donâ€™t know the effects of the leaving the EU yet because we are still within the EU are we not ? Still enjoying the benefits of being within the trade markets etc etc
		
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The "facts" Phil are even with the uncertainty of Brexit we are out performing everyone else. You would have thought that some of the claims would be coming true? but no, most things are on the up... Must make the naysayers spew?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The "facts" Phil are even with the uncertainty of Brexit we are out performing everyone else. You would have thought that some of the claims would be coming true? but no, most things are on the up... Must make the naysayers spew?
		
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Facts - we are out performing everyone else whilst still in the EU ðŸ‘

There have been many claims over the past three years but any affect of leaving the EU wonâ€™t be known until we actually leave 

But some other facts - some companies have lost contracts and stuff due to Brexit 

I would wait on the â€œi told you soâ€ until we actually leave the EU ( if we do ) and if the country flourishes then.


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## IanM (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but Iâ€™m not sure where you are coming from ? Brussels favouring continental businesses? Do you have any examples ?
		
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Coughs...

EADS, getting EU funding to move jobs from Wales to France.  (including mine!)  I'll leave some others for now

No, apart from the facts, it's all lies


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## robinthehood (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Facts - we are out performing everyone else whilst still in the EU ðŸ‘

There have been many claims over the past three years but any affect of leaving the EU wonâ€™t be known until we actually leave

But some other facts - some companies have lost contracts and stuff due to Brexit

I would wait on the â€œi told you soâ€ until we actually leave the EU ( if we do ) and if the country flourishes then.
		
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My wife's company is really struggling with the uncertainty.  Exports down and now having issues importing as some hauliers wont come over as there is no job for the return journey.  Add to that the waste from having to stockpile some key ingredients and it's a total shit show.


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## PieMan (May 29, 2019)

This is the way I see it.

Nobody knows for certain whether the UK leaving the EU will be beneficial or detrimental to us.

Likewise we cannot be 100% certain whether actually remaining in the EU will be beneficial or detrimental to us in the medium and longer term either.

But my vote was to leave given my own personal experiences of dealing with the EU institutions; and what I've seen and heard about 'even more EU'.

So I'd rather take the opportunity now whilst we have it than wait for the EU to actually come good with the same old 'oh yes we agree we must reform' to actually come true!


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## adam6177 (May 29, 2019)

I always enjoy the arguments that things are hitting the fan because of brexit....yet anything good that happens is despite brexit.


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## Papas1982 (May 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			My wife's company is really struggling with the uncertainty.  Exports down and now having issues importing as some hauliers wont come over as there is no job for the return journey.  Add to that the waste from having to stockpile some key ingredients and it's a total shit show.
		
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There will always be businesses that struggle unfortunately, by and large figures are not down. In fact more more traffic and work is going through Dover in regards imports and exports than last year.

Also the amount of new staff required if brexit goes through would totally rejuvenate the town. Add to that most major businesses would pretty much have their own customs departments as opposed to outsourcing it to hauliers and freight forwarders. The jobs (numbers created) would imo out weigh job loses.


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## Grant85 (May 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If a 70 year old had always voted for a particular party that is their democratic right, it doesn't mean that they are less engaged, in fact it could mean quite the opposite. I dont know anyone who doesn't vote for the party who doesn't best suit their own narrative. If 16 and 17 year olds are mature enough to understand the ramifications of placing their vote where they do, I'm personally fine with that.

As I posted earlier we weren't able to vote until we were 21 which was changed to 18 in 1970. I had been at work  for 3 years, paid tax and was allowed to get married, have children or join the army and see active service before I was deemed competent to vote! Now they want to vote whilst at school- good idea for some but not others imo, you're still arguing with them what time they have to get home from McDonalds at 16, and where do you draw the line? 15, 14 ?? because there will always be calls to lower the limit.
		
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I just used a 70 year old who votes out of habit for one party as an example. Of course they should all have the right to vote and being engaged or not-engaged is not something that should determine your rights or not. 

At age 16 you can work, pay tax, get married, have children. 
At 17 you can drive, pay road tax etc. 

Like I said, I don't see the logic in arguing against votes from 16 at all.


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## USER1999 (May 29, 2019)

No vote at 16 to me. Happy with 18. 16 is still a child. They might not think they are, but they are.


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## Papas1982 (May 29, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I just used a 70 year old who votes out of habit for one party as an example. Of course they should all have the right to vote and being engaged or not-engaged is not something that should determine your rights or not.

At age 16 you can work, pay tax, get married, have children.
At 17 you can drive, pay road tax etc.

Like I said, I don't see the logic in arguing against votes from 16 at all.
		
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You now have to remain in education until 18 don't you?  So I'd imagine very little in way of tax is paid.
You also pay a premium to drive at 17 (insurance) as its calculated your more at risk to make a mistake.

I'd also hazard a guess (based purely on my own council estate bringing up) that most 16 year old having kids rely heavily on help from their parents.

For me. Being able to do the things you mention shouldn't be a criteria used for those who should vote. That being said. There are plenty older that probably shouldn't either.

Think back to when you were 16.i think most will admit that politics was the last thing on their mind.


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## adam6177 (May 29, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Think back to when you were 16.i think most will admit that politics was the last thing on their mind.
		
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100% agree and honestly I think that vast amounts of people of all ages have absolutely no interest and therefore no idea on what any of this stuff means.....for instance, my wife has zero interest so has voted at all elections how I have voted.


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

It's impossible to ascertain who is and who isn't suitable to vote.
At 16 I knew what I thought and have stuck to that, save for the odd tactical vote, since I first voted at 18.
I knew others who were even more convinced of their ideology back then.
Now I work with "adults" who have no clue about politics, so don't vote, or vote as they are told by parents or friends, or decide when they get in the ballot box.
Brexit discussions, back in 2016, included people who voted leave because they don't like their local MP, remain because they didn't know what they were voting for and stuck with the status quo, and didn't vote because they couldn't be arsed.

Personally I think 18 is a good start point


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## Leftie (May 29, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			In my experience, it is the older generation who are close to retirement or already retired that have this distorted view that the UK is nothing more than a breeding ground for hate and depravity and only a return to pure sovereignty (I love when people pretend they care about sovereignty when they really mean "Britain for Britons!!!!") will save us from this downfall.
		
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If you really believe that, then I feel really, really sorry for you.  Perhaps you need to expand your circle of contacts/friend.  Get out into the real world.


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## spongebob59 (May 29, 2019)

16/17 year olds won't vote until someone develops an app to do it


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## Grant85 (May 29, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			You now have to remain in education until 18 don't you?  So I'd imagine very little in way of tax is paid.
You also pay a premium to drive at 17 (insurance) as its calculated your more at risk to make a mistake.

I'd also hazard a guess (based purely on my own council estate bringing up) that most 16 year old having kids rely heavily on help from their parents.

For me. Being able to do the things you mention shouldn't be a criteria used for those who should vote. That being said. There are plenty older that probably shouldn't either.

Think back to when you were 16.i think most will admit that politics was the last thing on their mind.
		
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I've not seen anything there that is a justifiable reason. Why are people in school or college not entitled to vote? They can do modern apprenticeships, have weekend jobs etc. Appreciate they might not be paying tax, but if they happen to earn enough they would do. 

Also, with a general trend towards voter apathy and turnouts often well below 50% in some elections, why not let any younger people who want a say into the process? 
What are the negatives? 
What are you afraid will happen? 

As I've said, the actual numbers that vote will be a very small percentage of any constituency or region. 

The government that is elected on that day will make laws and influence them when they do become 18 and will of course probably still be the government when they become 18 as well.


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## Leftie (May 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Facts - we are out performing everyone else whilst still in the EU ðŸ‘

_Even though doom and gloom was forecast as an immediate direct consequence of the result of the referendum._

There have been many claims over the past three years but any affect of leaving the EU wonâ€™t be known until we actually leave.

_So how can you, or any one else, *know* and argue that we will be worse off when we leave.  The doom and gloom merchants say that leaving without a deal will be a total disaster.  Give the population *facts* not suppositions and opinions which are, by definition, biased._

But some other facts - some companies have lost contracts and stuff due to Brexit

_And by the same token, some have benefited._

Click to expand...


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## Sandsider (May 29, 2019)

Boris's defence will be 'You didn't mention the sign on the other side of the bus, it read 'Free Beer Tomorrow!. Nobody took that seriously so what's the problem?'


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## Papas1982 (May 29, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I've not seen anything there that is a justifiable reason. Why are people in school or college not entitled to vote? They can do modern apprenticeships, have weekend jobs etc. Appreciate they might not be paying tax, but if they happen to earn enough they would do.

Also, with a general trend towards voter apathy and turnouts often well below 50% in some elections, why not let any younger people who want a say into the process?
What are the negatives?
What are you afraid will happen?

As I've said, the actual numbers that vote will be a very small percentage of any constituency or region.
Quite simply you listed reasons why they should vote, but imo they do none of them fully. As I showed. So for me you showed no justifiable reason for them to vote imo ðŸ˜€

In regards to voter apathy. Youth was still the greatest offender so I have no fear (a phrase spouted frequently) by those wishing for remain and believing youth would have given them what they want. I couldnâ€™t care less what way the vote went as I have no faith in parliament doing whatâ€™s best for us. Remain or brexit they are all self serving (thatâ€™s another debate though). 
The government that is elected on that day will make laws and influence them when they do become 18 and will of course probably still be the government when they become 18 as well.
		
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Grant85 said:



			I've not seen anything there that is a justifiable reason. Why are people in school or college not entitled to vote? They can do modern apprenticeships, have weekend jobs etc. Appreciate they might not be paying tax, but if they happen to earn enough they would do.

Also, with a general trend towards voter apathy and turnouts often well below 50% in some elections, why not let any younger people who want a say into the process?
What are the negatives?
What are you afraid will happen?

As I've said, the actual numbers that vote will be a very small percentage of any constituency or region.

The government that is elected on that day will make laws and influence them when they do become 18 and will of course probably still be the government when they become 18 as well.
		
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Quite simply you listed reasons why they should vote, but imo they do none of them fully. So as youâ€™ve said, I see no justifiable reason either.....

In regards to voter apathy. Youth was still the greatest offender so I have no fear (a phrase spouted frequently) by those wishing for remain and believing youth would have given them what they want. I couldnâ€™t care less what way the vote went as I have no faith in parliament doing whatâ€™s best for us. Remain or brexit they are all self serving (thatâ€™s another debate though). 

Quite simply imo 16yr olds are children. They are still massively dependent on their parents. Obviously as with everything there can be exceptions. But imo as soon as brexit is resolved one way or another their lack of numbers voting will return again. Which in itself shows their real lack of interest in politics that arenâ€™t deemed as beneficial to them.


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Got nothing to do with stopping Brexit though, has it!
		
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Wake up mate.....

â€œ_â€œOnce these prosecutions have established that politicians did indeed lie to voters our next step will be to take other action to prevent Brexit. This may be in the form of a judicial reviewâ€¦ We will also work to reverse Brexit and ensure our membership of the European Union is not lostâ€_

https://order-order.com/2019/05/29/campaigner-stop-lying-politics-lied-political-campaign/


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			16/17 year olds won't vote until someone develops an app to do it 

Click to expand...

To be honest any modern society should make it as easy to vote as possible, which nowadays will involve utilising the internet. Anyone thinking otherwise to me seems a bit 20th century and out of date. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voting_in_Estonia


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Wake up mate.....

â€œ_â€œOnce these prosecutions have established that politicians did indeed lie to voters our next step will be to take other action to prevent Brexit. This may be in the form of a judicial reviewâ€¦ We will also work to reverse Brexit and ensure our membership of the European Union is not lostâ€_

https://order-order.com/2019/05/29/campaigner-stop-lying-politics-lied-political-campaign/

Click to expand...

Seems like a totally non-biased, non-paranoid publication ðŸ™„


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			16/17 year olds won't vote until someone develops an app to do it 

Click to expand...

My 17 year old granddaughter has just gone out today in her brand new car, payed for from her own business that she has run for over a year.
I should think that she deserves a vote above a pensioner who has spent 30 years on the dole.


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My 17 year old granddaughter has just gone out today in her brand new car, payed for from her own business that she has run for over a year.
I should think that she deserves a vote above a pensioner who has spent 30 years on the dole.
		
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But she is very much a one off


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Seems like a totally non-biased, non-paranoid publication ðŸ™„
		
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Ahh yes that old chestnut.ðŸ˜´

If itâ€™s not on Auntie Beeb it must be a lie!


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Ahh yes that old chestnut.ðŸ˜´

If itâ€™s not on Auntie Beeb it must be a lie!
		
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Iâ€™m guessing thereâ€™s an article on there about how the remainers are aliens come to take over ðŸ‘½

Do David Ike of Alex Jones contribute regularly?


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## MegaSteve (May 29, 2019)

Not sure what I find more troubling... Voters who's opinions that have been formed by reading the torygraph or those that have been formed viewing YouTube...


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## chrisd (May 29, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I just used a 70 year old who votes out of habit for one party as an example. Of course they should all have the right to vote and being engaged or not-engaged is not something that should determine your rights or not.

At age 16 you can work, pay tax, get married, have children.
At 17 you can drive, pay road tax etc.

Like I said, I don't see the logic in arguing against votes from 16 at all.
		
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I'm not arguing against 16 to vote, I'm not totally convinced it's the right age but I certainly dont have a problem myself


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2019)

In general I tend to find that those on the left of centre will support lowering the voting age to 16 and those on the right of centre will be against it. I would suspect that it's because younger people tend to support parties to the left and older voters tend to support parties to the right therefore increasing the potential vote share for the left. I wonder how much of this influence comes from teachers/lecturers, which seems to be a mainly left of centre profession leading to a bias in how politics is taught in schools and universities.


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			In general I tend to find that those on the left of centre will support lowering the voting age to 16 and those on the right of centre will be against it. I would suspect that it's because younger people tend to support parties to the left and older voters tend to support parties to the right therefore increasing the potential vote share for the left. I wonder how much of this influence comes from teachers/lecturers, which seems to be a mainly left of centre profession leading to a bias in how politics is taught in schools and universities.
		
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Yes itâ€™s always been this way, kids get brainwashed by leftist teachers. Once they get a job, leave home and have to spend their own money to buy toilet roll they start to change their mind.ðŸ˜


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## IainP (May 29, 2019)

I may have missed it, but are there any actual hard facts to indicate a massive teenage remain vote and a massive pensioner leave vote in the 2016 anonymous referendum?
And not talking about some wishy washy tiny polls.
Maybe this swings it....


Just to be clear, I am quite prepared to believe it may be the case & there maybe are some indications, just not seen any actual facts.


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes itâ€™s always been this way, kids get brainwashed by leftist teachers. Once they get a job, leave home and have to spend their own money to buy toilet roll they start to change their mind.ðŸ˜
		
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If the teachers are adults who have to buy their own bog roll, by your logic, they will no longer be leftists!
So how can they be leftist teachers forcing kids to be lefties?


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## Old Skier (May 29, 2019)

IanM said:



			Really'??   Not isolation, it is engagement with the whole planet, without a drunk from Luxembourg telling us who we can and cant deal with.    (AND Germany still need to sell  us their cars...)

You know all this, but your trolling continues
		
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He's far to old to come to a sensible conclusion.


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			If the teachers are adults who have to buy their own bog roll, by your logic, they will no longer be leftists!
So how can they be leftist teachers forcing kids to be lefties?
		
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I would say in general that Public Sector workers, along with youngsters, tend to support parties to the left of centre. Possibly due to Labour getting in to power and splurging cash everywhere including large Public Sector pay rises and then the Conservatives getting back in to power and having to try to make savings which mean lower or no pay rises in the Public Sector.


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			If the teachers are adults who have to buy their own bog roll, by your logic, they will no longer be leftists!
So how can they be leftist teachers forcing kids to be lefties?
		
Click to expand...


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I would say in general that Public Sector workers, along with youngsters, tend to support parties to the left of centre. Possibly due to Labour getting in to power and splurging cash everywhere including large Public Sector pay rises and then the Conservatives getting back in to power and having to try to make savings which mean lower or no pay rises in the Public Sector.
		
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Almost like the Tories giving tax breaks to the rich and giving the Armed Forces big pay rises in the past to buy their vote or selling off all the MOD Houses to a Japanese Company to pay for an income tax just before a GE. Never the tories fault.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be honest any modern society should make it as easy to vote as possible, which nowadays will involve utilising the internet. Anyone thinking otherwise to me seems a bit 20th century and out of date. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voting_in_Estonia

Click to expand...

I think Putin will agree with you.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Almost like the Tories giving tax breaks to the rich and giving the Armed Forces big pay rises in the past to buy their vote or selling off all the MOD Houses to a Japanese Company to pay for an income tax just before a GE. Never the tories fault. 

Click to expand...

And how exactly does that detract from his opinion. Two wrongs dont make a right.


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Almost like the Tories giving tax breaks to the rich and giving the Armed Forces big pay rises in the past to buy their vote or selling off all the MOD Houses to a Japanese Company to pay for an income tax just before a GE. Never the tories fault. 

Click to expand...

Nope not "almost like" at all. I would describe it as "exactly the same" just aimed at different groups. Both main parties target their spending or cuts in the areas that will benefit them most. For Labour this seems to be the Public Sector and for the Tories it seems to be business and the better off.


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## Hobbit (May 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nope not "almost like" at all. I would describe it as "exactly the same" just aimed at different groups. Both main parties target their spending or cuts in the areas that will benefit them most. For Labour this seems to be the Public Sector and for the Tories it seems to be business and the better off.
		
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My previous employer did 95% of its business with the NHS. Loved an election year, especially if Labour were in power.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nope not "almost like" at all. I would describe it as "exactly the same" just aimed at different groups. Both main parties target their spending or cuts in the areas that will benefit them most. For Labour this seems to be the Public Sector and for the Tories it seems to be business and the better off.
		
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So you agree the tories have got it wrong.  Cheers.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Seems like a totally non-biased, non-paranoid publication ðŸ™„
		
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If he believes the allegations are false then no doubt he will take them to court. Lets see if he does!


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So you agree the tories have got it wrong.  Cheers.
		
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Yes, he agrees they are all as bad as each other. Surely you agree?


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So you agree the tories have got it wrong.  Cheers.
		
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Yep, 100% agree. It's a sad fact that both our main parties "bribe" (not literally with brown envelopes or bank accounts set up in their dog's name, but through spending policies) certain sections of the electorate to vote for them.

Rich conservative voters don't complain as they are too busy counting all their extra money, and Labour voters don't complain as they are too busy counting their benefit payments and are all poorly educated and don't actually understand that they've been paid to vote Labour. 

(Hopefully that was enough smilies to make sure the last paragraph is taken as a joke not a serious comment)


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



View attachment 27413

Click to expand...

Do people tell you that often?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yep, 100% agree. It's a sad fact that both our main parties "bribe" (not literally with brown envelopes or bank accounts set up in their dog's name, but through spending policies) certain sections of the electorate to vote for them.

Rich conservative voters don't complain as they are too busy counting all their extra money, and Labour voters don't complain as they are too busy counting their benefit payments and are all poorly educated and don't actually understand that they've been paid to vote Labour. 

(Hopefully that was enough smilies to make sure the last paragraph is taken as a joke not a serious comment)
		
Click to expand...

Possibly needed one more wink, some on here are easily offended.


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Possibly needed one more wink, some on here are easily offended. 

Click to expand...

I've gone back and edited it, and added two more, just to be on the safe side.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've gone back and edited it, and added two more, just to be on the safe side. 

Click to expand...

I think 10 is the absolute minimum to be on the safe side. 

You really are bored arenâ€™t you.


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I think 10 is the absolute minimum to be on the safe side. 

Click to expand...

Done! Wasn't sure if you meant 10 in total, 10 more than the original one, or even 10 more than the three that were on there after I'd edited it the first time. So much like wearing the thickest condoms that Durex make, I've gone "extra safe".


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Done! Wasn't sure if you meant 10 in total, 10 more than the original one, or even 10 more than the three that were on there after I'd edited it the first time. So much like wearing the thickest condoms that Durex make, I've gone "extra safe". 

Click to expand...

That Danish town is getting to you, do you want me to send you my BT TV Log in details for saturday night?


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## ColchesterFC (May 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			That Danish town is getting to you, do you want me to send you my BT TV Log in details for saturday night?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if it's the Danish town or the vodka but something is definitely getting to me. Would a BT log in work abroad, or would I need to find a visible panty line (VPL) or whatever the advice in the random irritations thread was, to use it here?


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure if it's the Danish town or the vodka but something is definitely getting to me. Would a BT log in work abroad, or would I need to find a visible panty line (VPL) or whatever the advice in the random irritations thread was, to use it here?
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t know mate, but if the geeks on here can clarify it for you, Iâ€™ll pm my log on details for BT TV for you.


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## ger147 (May 30, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure if it's the Danish town or the vodka but something is definitely getting to me. Would a BT log in work abroad, or would I need to find a visible panty line (VPL) or whatever the advice in the random irritations thread was, to use it here?
		
Click to expand...

BT Sport are live streaming both finals on their YouTube channel free of charge.


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## Crazyface (May 30, 2019)

GERMANY HOLD ALL THE TOP JOBS

So there you have it. We are already controlled by the Germans which is what they wanted all those years ago............


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## robinthehood (May 30, 2019)

Crazyface said:



GERMANY HOLD ALL THE TOP JOBS

So there you have it. We are already controlled by the Germans which is what they wanted all those years ago............
		
Click to expand...

Omg and they let you vote.


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## Foxholer (May 30, 2019)

Crazyface said:



GERMANY HOLD ALL THE TOP JOBS

So there you have it. We are already controlled by the Germans which is what they wanted all those years ago............
		
Click to expand...

Utter twaddle!


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2019)

Something for us Remainers to ponder on. Albania and N Macedonia have just passed the constitutional requirements to advance to the next stage of EU membership. In terms of GDP, Albania is nailing it but N Macedonia is stagnating on 0.0% GDP.

Personally, I can't be ar5ed looking at the GDP/ave wage of Poland et al at their time of accession to the EU. Albania's ave wage is Â£21/week 'v' Â£300 in the UK. If the UK do stay in the EU I hope they follow the model of the other Northern European countries when Poland et al were admitted and put a cap on migration. Blair just opened the doors, and look where we are now.

One positive; Turkey have backslided and are now no longer being considered - note, no longer considered. For all of us saying they were in the mix and others saying it was project fear, they were in the mix.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Something for us Remainers to ponder on. Albania and N Macedonia have just passed the constitutional requirements to advance to the next stage of EU membership. In terms of GDP, Albania is nailing it but N Macedonia is stagnating on 0.0% GDP.

Personally, I can't be ar5ed looking at the GDP/ave wage of Poland et al at their time of accession to the EU. Albania's ave wage is Â£21/week 'v' Â£300 in the UK. If the UK do stay in the EU I hope they follow the model of the other Northern European countries when Poland et al were admitted and put a cap on migration. Blair just opened the doors, and look where we are now.

One positive; Turkey have backslided and are now no longer being considered - note, no longer considered. For all of us saying they were in the mix and others saying it was project fear, they were in the mix.
		
Click to expand...

Did the Daily Mail not tell all of it's 'readers' that 51 million Turks will be coming to steal jobs from British workers.
I am pretty sure that Johnson put his name to that whopper as well


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did the Daily Mail not tell all of it's 'readers' that 51 million Turks will be coming to steal jobs from British workers.
I am pretty sure that Johnson put his name to that whopper as well
		
Click to expand...

Actually, you couldn't be further from the truth, but that won't be a shock to anyone.

In May 2016, just before the referendum the Daily Mail ran an article about David Cameron slapping down Penny Mordaunt about Turkey joining the EU. To loosely quote, he said it'll be the year 3000 before Turkey could join the EU.


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## Mudball (May 30, 2019)

Turkey is so last referendum.. I wait for Azerbaijan to join.  They just held the Europa League Finals so they must be joining soon ..


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## Hacker Khan (May 30, 2019)

Interesting,very interesting, oh look at his face,  just look at Bojo's face 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134207549249654786


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Interesting,very interesting, oh look at his face,  just look at Bojo's face 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134207549249654786

Click to expand...

Just look at mine, its confused at that link, what's the point?


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## jp5 (May 31, 2019)

Wow. Brexit is shredding the main parties. LD vs BXP could be the Government vs Opposition of the next century.


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## Kellfire (May 31, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Wow. Brexit is shredding the main parties. LD vs BXP could be the Government vs Opposition of the next century.
		
Click to expand...

No.


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## robinthehood (May 31, 2019)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/the-brexiters-guide-to-why-lies-are-good-20190530186081


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/the-brexiters-guide-to-why-lies-are-good-20190530186081

Click to expand...


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## Kellfire (May 31, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/the-brexiters-guide-to-why-lies-are-good-20190530186081

Click to expand...

Itâ€™s funny because itâ€™s true. But the fact itâ€™s true also makes it really not funny.


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## IanM (May 31, 2019)

Be absolutely clear... we are in the current situation because the process of leaving has been run by people not willing to leave.


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## User62651 (May 31, 2019)

IanM said:



			Be absolutely clear... we are in the current situation because the process of leaving has been run by people not willing to leave.
		
Click to expand...

Nope, we were all told we would leave with a deal, easiest deal ever...................... there is no deal yet that can be agreed. No Deal was not on the table at time of referendum. That's why we haven't left. 2017 GE rejected May's hard Brexit also, ended in a hung parliament. That's democracy too.


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## jp5 (May 31, 2019)

IanM said:



			Be absolutely clear... we are in the current situation because the process of leaving has been run by people not willing to leave.
		
Click to expand...

As unfortunately all the people responsible for the many promises wanted nothing to do with delivering them. Let's hope it's different this time around.


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## IanM (May 31, 2019)

Eh, no.  Reread my posting.  Those in charge were and are remainers..... 

And more amusingly, calls for Farage to join the Negotiating Team (following is hefty defeat  in the Election) were met with derision by the MSM and the Politicos.... quite the opposite of the oft offered line on here. 

See you in a week or two!


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## drdel (May 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Nope, we were all told we would leave with a deal, easiest deal ever...................... there is no deal yet that can be agreed. No Deal was not on the table at time of referendum. That's why we haven't left. 2017 GE rejected May's hard Brexit also, ended in a hung parliament. That's democracy too.
		
Click to expand...

The basis of the referendum was that '... we would leave the EU and all of its Institutions...'. There was no mention of a deal or no deal and certainly no notion that the EU would split negotiations into a 'settlement' with-drawl phase and only then a subsequent future relationship process.

The 'No Deal' game only came about after the signing of Art 50 gained a majority in the HoC.


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Nope, we were all told we would leave with a deal, easiest deal ever...................... there is no deal yet that can be agreed. No Deal was not on the table at time of referendum. That's why we haven't left. 2017 GE rejected May's hard Brexit also, ended in a hung parliament. That's democracy too.
		
Click to expand...

Can you show where it stated we would only be leaving with a deal.


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Itâ€™s funny because itâ€™s true. But the fact itâ€™s true also makes it really not funny. 

Click to expand...

So, both sides made misleading statements and your so balanced you mention this one.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2019)

Welcome to Brexit Briton part 1, elected Brexit party MEP on how we can cure the gays with science....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48491731


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2019)

Welcome to Brexit Briton part 2, we'll sell our NHS to get a trade deal with the US as we are that desperate...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-48...if-the-british-people-like-it-they-can-buy-it


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2019)

Welcome to Brexit Briton part 3, prominent Brexiteer says we we can legislate for other countries citizens apparently. Still, blue passports....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135121802974420992


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Welcome to Brexit Briton part 3, prominent Brexiteer says we we can legislate for other countries citizens apparently. Still, blue passports....
		
Click to expand...

Classic politician's interview/speech technique...Claim to propose, therefore 'take credit for' an action that has already been 'agreed'! No different to how Boris 'took ownership' of Livingston's Bikes and Cycleway initiatives. Even better that 'Boris Bikes' was such a catchy slogan!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Can you show where it stated we would only be leaving with a deal.
		
Click to expand...

Isnâ€™t that the same as me asking were it showed Leave stating weâ€™d leave with No Deal?


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Welcome to Brexit Briton part 2, we'll sell our NHS to get a trade deal with the US as we are that desperate...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-48489524/us-ambassador-woody-johnson-on-us-food-if-the-british-


Hacker Khan said:



			Welcome to Brexit Briton part 2, we'll sell our NHS to get a trade deal with the US as we are that desperate...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-48...if-the-british-people-like-it-they-can-buy-it

Click to expand...

people-like-it-they-can-buy-it

Click to expand...

Can I ask, did you listen to the interview, nothing about selling off the NHS


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## Hobbit (Jun 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Welcome to Brexit Briton part 1, elected Brexit party MEP on how we can cure the gays with science....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48491731

Click to expand...

This pretty much highlights what is wrong with the media. The article was from 2012, not that that has any real relevance. In the article she states that homosexuals that are unhappy with their sexuality may be able to turn to science, and she uses the example of those that were physically born as men having gender change operations and therapy. She never advocated forcibly changing their sexuality nor that their sexuality was in anyway abhorrent.

The tone and line of questioning in Sophie Ridge's show was disappointing as it was apparent that the interviewer wanted to make more of it than Ann Widdicombe's original suggestion that those unhappy with their sexuality could turn to science to change things for how they wanted them. And you've now got various politicians jumping on Sky's twisted version and attacking Ann Widdicombe - sad.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Isnâ€™t that the same as me asking were it showed Leave stating weâ€™d leave with No Deal?
		
Click to expand...

Ask away, nobody stated we would leave with or without a deal. I know I'm hard of hearing but I only remember the conversation going that deals could be made when we leave and indeed some already  have been including that old chestnut security


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## Fade and Die (Jun 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Welcome to Brexit Briton part 1, elected Brexit party MEP on how we can cure the gays with science....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48491731

Click to expand...




Hacker Khan said:



			Welcome to Brexit Briton part 2, we'll sell our NHS to get a trade deal with the US as we are that desperate...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-48...if-the-british-people-like-it-they-can-buy-it

Click to expand...




Hacker Khan said:



			Welcome to Brexit Briton part 3, prominent Brexiteer says we we can legislate for other countries citizens apparently. Still, blue passports....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135121802974420992

Click to expand...


Excellent work HK highlighting perfectly the anti Brexit biases of the media. Good Work. 

Operation Smear ramping up daily.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Ask away, nobody stated we would leave with or without a deal. I know I'm hard of hearing but I only remember the conversation going that deals could be made when we leave and indeed some already  have been including that old chestnut security
		
Click to expand...

Should I post the Leave leaflet again?
The one that mentions the deal?


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## Beezerk (Jun 2, 2019)

Don't make me post the Groundhog Day picture again


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## Kellfire (Jun 2, 2019)

If youâ€™re defending a homophobic rant because it was made a few years ago then youâ€™re part of the problem, not the solution. Please GO AWAY.


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## Hobbit (Jun 2, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			If youâ€™re defending a homophobic rant because it was made a few years ago then youâ€™re part of the problem, not the solution. Please GO AWAY.
		
Click to expand...

If thatâ€™s aimed at me, read all of the post, including the context of the original article.


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## Kellfire (Jun 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If thatâ€™s aimed at me, read all of the post, including the context of the original article.
		
Click to expand...


It wasnâ€™t aimed at you, it was a generalised comment.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			It wasnâ€™t aimed at you, it was a generalised comment.
		
Click to expand...

Are there any Generals on the forum?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 3, 2019)

Oh dear, news not seen in the Mail or Express....... Scotland's Alyn Smith tipped for top EU committee post and only 39% of NI voters would support staying in UK after Brexit.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 3, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			It wasnâ€™t aimed at you, it was a generalised comment.
		
Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh dear, news not seen in the Mail or Express....... Scotland's Alyn Smith tipped for top EU committee post and only 39% of NI voters would support staying in UK after Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear! ðŸ˜´


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 3, 2019)

https://twitter.com/for_northern

Looks like Scotland has got a new pal.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://twitter.com/for_northern

Looks like Scotland has got a new pal. 

Click to expand...

Oh dear! ðŸ˜´


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://twitter.com/for_northern

Looks like Scotland has got a new pal. 

Click to expand...

Pal as in singular. The venue for their conference will be incredibly small, the snug in the blokes local pub. There is no appetite for this or discussion relating to it up here outside of this persons very small world.


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## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Pal as in singular. The venue for their conference will be incredibly small, the snug in the blokes local pub. There is no appetite for this or discussion relating to it up here outside of this persons very small world.
		
Click to expand...

There'd be room in a bus shelter


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## jp5 (Jun 3, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1135569893833809920


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## Dando (Jun 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://twitter.com/for_northern

Looks like Scotland has got a new pal. 

Click to expand...

Is it April fools day again


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 3, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Pal as in singular. The venue for their conference will be incredibly small, the snug in the blokes local pub. There is no appetite for this or discussion relating to it up here outside of this persons very small world.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't they say the same about UKIP and look what happened to them......morphed into the Brexit party.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Didn't they say the same about UKIP and look what happened to them......morphed into the Brexit party.

Click to expand...

And won the election ðŸ‘


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And won the election ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

The election we shouldnâ€™t of had and wasnâ€™t wanted by anyone but remainers! If only the tories had got their act together.....


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The election we shouldnâ€™t of had and wasnâ€™t wanted by anyone but remainers! If only the tories had got their act together.....

Click to expand...

Yes that's right, along with Corbyn and his cronies who have done all they can to frustrate Brexit for petty political gain. If they had all shown some moral fiber we could have saved Â£150 million.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes that's right, along with Corbyn and his cronies who have done all they can to frustrate Brexit for petty political gain. If they had all shown some moral fiber we could have saved Â£150 million.
		
Click to expand...

There we go, letâ€™s bring Labour in to it rather than accepting were the real responsibility lies.


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## Slime (Jun 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			There we go, letâ€™s bring Labour in to it rather than accepting were the real responsibility lies.
		
Click to expand...

Wake up and smell the coffee, Paul, they are ALL responsible for this bloody mess we're in.


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## robinthehood (Jun 3, 2019)

Slime said:



			Wake up and smell the coffee, Paul, they are ALL responsible for this bloody mess we're in.
		
Click to expand...

No , its specifically the conservative party's fault.  All of it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2019)

Slime said:



			Wake up and smell the coffee, Paul, they are ALL responsible for this bloody mess we're in.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree, I believe TM and DC before her were too pig headed in their approach and the mess all parties are currently embroiled in stems from their lack of leadership.
She survived a tory vote of no confidence in Dec and a HoC vote of no confidence in Jan.
Nothing has changed with the deal and we are in a worse mess than ever, only 1 party has been involved from the beginning and had control all the way through.
All I see now is deflection, deflection, deflection and seriously doubt weâ€™ll ever leave the EU.
What is it now? 13 tory MPâ€™s trying to become the next leader and all this talk of running down the clock or offering all sorts of deals.
Can anyone tell me how this is helping with Brexit, theyâ€™ve finally forced TM out when they could of done it some 6 months ago.


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## harpo_72 (Jun 4, 2019)

TM knew there was no other deal available, with her restrictions. It will be interesting to see if Farage gets a party into the HoC, polls suggest it wonâ€™t have a majority and the opposition will be whipped if necessary to go against him. Although I would not be surprised if we see Toryâ€™s make a government with him.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No , its specifically the conservative party's fault.  All of it.
		
Click to expand...

Really, I don't recall any clamour from anyone except the wrong 50% of the Tory Party and UKIP and the minor far right parties to leave Europe.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 4, 2019)

ChUK MPs will meet tomorrow to discuss the future of their fledgling party. Guido understands that five of their eleven MPs think the game is up and will push to disband the party, with some even wanting to move to join the Lib Dems, just a week after their humiliating defeat at the European Elections, where they failed to get even one MP elected.
Guido hears that MPs like Heidi Allen and Chuka Umunna are angry at what they saw as an Anna Soubry-Chris Leslie nexus seizing control of Change UK, with both of their spouses being appointed to key internal positions. They were also behind the, in hindsight, disastrous decision to not seek a pact with other Remain parties. _Heidi is apparently ready to jump ship to the Lib Dems, who now control her local councilâ€¦_
The MPs who are rumoured to be staying put with ChUK or some variant of The Independent Group are Anna Soubry and Chris Leslie, who have been running the show, and Mike Gapes, whose fierce pro-nuclear position could not countenance joining the anti-Trident Liberal Democrats.
Meanwhile Heidi has been in discussions with Dominic Grieve, who is facing a strong deselection challenge in his Beaconsfield constituency. _It is unclear if the ChUKs will move tomorrow after their meeting,the course will be setâ€¦ Will Chuka try for LibDem leader?_


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## IainP (Jun 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really, I don't recall any clamour from anyone except the wrong 50% of the Tory Party and UKIP and the minor far right parties to leave Europe.
		
Click to expand...

Come on Doon,  keep up,  the last 3 years plus have been about leaving the EU, not Europe ðŸ™„

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...osceptics-who-toppled-tory-prime-minister?amp


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			ChUK MPs will meet tomorrow to discuss the future of their fledgling party. Guido understands that five of their eleven MPs think the game is up and will push to disband the party, with some even wanting to move to join the Lib Dems, just a week after their humiliating defeat at the European Elections, where they failed to get even one MP elected.
Guido hears that MPs like Heidi Allen and Chuka Umunna are angry at what they saw as an Anna Soubry-Chris Leslie nexus seizing control of Change UK, with both of their spouses being appointed to key internal positions. They were also behind the, in hindsight, disastrous decision to not seek a pact with other Remain parties. _Heidi is apparently ready to jump ship to the Lib Dems, who now control her local councilâ€¦_
The MPs who are rumoured to be staying put with ChUK or some variant of The Independent Group are Anna Soubry and Chris Leslie, who have been running the show, and Mike Gapes, whose fierce pro-nuclear position could not countenance joining the anti-Trident Liberal Democrats.
Meanwhile Heidi has been in discussions with Dominic Grieve, who is facing a strong deselection challenge in his Beaconsfield constituency. _It is unclear if the ChUKs will move tomorrow after their meeting,the course will be setâ€¦* Will Chuka try for LibDem leader?*_

Click to expand...

That would be an interesting and I think good move.  Much as I like Vince cable, he did look like some dishevelled old granddad and I can't help think did not overly appeal to younger voters who the Lib Dems could easily attract in todays poltical climate.  And whilst it is a bit superficial, at least Chukka looks like he could lead a party.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			TM knew there was no other deal available, with her restrictions. It will be interesting to see if Farage gets a party into the HoC, polls suggest it wonâ€™t have a majority and the opposition will be whipped if necessary to go against him. *Although I would not be surprised if we see Toryâ€™s make a government with him*.
		
Click to expand...

You know that there will be a Conservative/Brexit party coalition after the next GE which will happen sooner rather than later.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			There we go, letâ€™s bring Labour in to it rather than accepting were the real responsibility lies.
		
Click to expand...

There we go, let's put on the Corbyn blinkers and pretend he hasn't frustrated Brexit for his own political ends.  Open your eyes.


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## jp5 (Jun 4, 2019)

Corbyn's a full blown Brexiteer. If May had engaged with him from the start instead of spending 3 years ignoring everyone else then I expect we'd have left by now.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 4, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Corbyn's a full blown Brexiteer. If May had engaged with him from the start instead of spending 3 years ignoring everyone else then I expect we'd have left by now.
		
Click to expand...

And how much did Corbyn offer to assist during that 3 years? Would rather continue to be the opposition that work together because of party politics and missed a huge opportunity to improve the public view of Labour.


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## Beezerk (Jun 4, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Corbyn's a full blown Brexiteer. If May had engaged with him from the start instead of spending 3 years ignoring everyone else then I expect we'd have left by now.
		
Click to expand...

Strange that, as soon as some polls started showing Remain would win another referendum I'm sure he/Labour stated they would vote against any TM deal brought to the house.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			And how much did Corbyn offer to assist during that 3 years? Would rather continue to be the opposition that work together because of party politics and* missed a huge opportunity to improve the public view of Labour.*

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm sure all the the Tory voting Brexiters on here would have been climbing over each other to sing his praises.

As has been said a million times, he's made a hash of Brexit with his lack of clarity and that has cost him. But as also been said a million times he is not in government, so it's not his job to ensure a process very much associated with the Tory party, that was created to appease the more hard right of said party, gets enacted.  Yet again the theme of it always being someone else's fault emerges, the EU, Labour, [insert scapegoat here]....


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 4, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			And how much did Corbyn offer to assist during that 3 years? Would rather continue to be the opposition that work together because of party politics and missed a huge opportunity to improve the public view of Labour.
		
Click to expand...

May had no interest in listening to anyone until her deal was rejected for a 3rd time. She wouldn't listen to people in her own party, never mind Labour. UK politics, sadly, does not lend itself to consensus politics but this was one time when it could have been an option. TM had no interest in that. 

Corbyn is a disaster, imo, but the fault for this is not with him.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, I'm sure all the the Tory voting Brexiters on here would have been climbing over each other to sing his praises.

As has been said a million times, *he's made a hash of Brexit with his lack of clarity and that has cost him.* But as also been said a million times he is not in government, so it's not his job to ensure a process very much associated with the Tory party, that was created to appease the more hard right of said party, gets enacted.  Yet again the theme of it always being someone else's fault emerges, the EU, Labour, [insert scapegoat here]....
		
Click to expand...

Only Brexit? I can't think of anything that he hasn't made a hash of. Labour should have been ripping the government apart every week in the HoC for their completely inept performance, and taking a huge lead in the opinion polls, but they've barely managed to land a single blow.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 4, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Only Brexit? *I can't think of anything that he hasn't made a has*h of. Labour should have been ripping the government apart every week in the HoC for their completely inept performance, and taking a huge lead in the opinion polls, but they've barely managed to land a single blow.
		
Click to expand...

I'd argue some of their policies make sense to me anyway, but I'd agree they have been pretty inept coupled with a cult of personality following on social media that can not see Corbyn doing any wrong. Which makes the suggestion that they have the wit and wisdom to frustrate the Brexit process even more laughable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Only Brexit? I can't think of anything that he hasn't made a hash of. Labour should have been ripping the government apart every week in the HoC for their completely inept performance, and taking a huge lead in the opinion polls, but they've barely managed to land a single blow.
		
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Iâ€™d suggest you look at the last GE and his record in getting votes for Labour.
TM called a GE when there was no need and is only power due to buying off the DUP.
Shouldnâ€™t we be more annoyed at having an inept Government rather than poke JC.
Heâ€™s used almost as an excuse for the Government to be inept!


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™d suggest you look at the last GE and his record in getting votes for Labour.
TM called a GE when there was no need and is only power due to buying off the DUP.
Shouldnâ€™t we be more annoyed at having an inept Government rather than poke JC.
Heâ€™s used almost as an excuse for the Government to be inept!
		
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Do you mean the last GE when Labour, led by the fantastic Jeremy Corbyn, lost to what we both seem to agree is a thoroughly inept and useless Conservative government? Well let's give him a big round of applause for being so great that he lost an election to what I consider to be one of the poorest governments we've ever had. You're becoming a forum version of the 3 wise monkeys when it comes to Labour and Corbyn.

And to be clear, there is no excuse for how inept the government is and has been but any kind of half decent opposition would have held them to account and ripped them apart by now and yet your hero Jeremy has failed to do so. As has been previously said you really need to take off your blinkers. I quoted a post about Corbyn and replied to that and yet you go on the defensive and say I shouldn't have had a poke at him and should be more annoyed by the government. The same government who I also had a poke at and described as "completely inept".


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Do you mean the last GE when Labour, led by the fantastic Jeremy Corbyn, lost to what we both seem to agree is a thoroughly inept and useless Conservative government? Well let's give him a big round of applause for being so great that he lost an election to what I consider to be one of the poorest governments we've ever had. You're becoming a forum version of the 3 wise monkeys when it comes to Labour and Corbyn.

And to be clear, there is no excuse for how inept the government is and has been but any kind of half decent opposition would have held them to account and ripped them apart by now and yet your hero Jeremy has failed to do so. As has been previously said you really need to take off your blinkers. I quoted a post about Corbyn and replied to that and yet you go on the defensive and say I shouldn't have had a poke at him and should be more annoyed by the government. The same government who I also had a poke at and described as "completely inept".
		
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Have a look at this and many other threads and everytime the tories are criticised we get the old, â€œcould be worse, we could have corbynâ€ or â€œdid abbott do the mathsâ€ etc, always deflection on to a poor opposition or a poor leader etc.
I donâ€™t care about the opposition and how good or bad they are, itâ€™s the people in those positions of power we should be focussing on.
Look at the above he lost a GE to a poor Government, they werenâ€™t that poor at the time, DC had only been in power a few years.

Few facts from his supposed poor GE result.

Having begun the campaign 20 points behind in the polls, he has won an astonishing 40% of the votes. That is the largest increase in the share of the vote by a Labour leader since Clement Attlee in 1945.

Corbyn won 30 more seats for his party than Ed Miliband got in the previous GE. He has deprived Theresa May of her majority. He has won seats in southern England such as Canterbury and Plymouth that for years had been Labour no-go areas.

Please donâ€™t describe him as my hero, I will defend the bias as I see it on here, but have absolutely no time for him as a man.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 4, 2019)

I thought we were talking about the last GE? So why is DC mentioned? Corbyn/Labour lost the last GE with May as PM. He lost an election against arguably the worst PM we've ever had as leader of one of the worst governments we've ever had. In my book that isn't a success. It's not sports day at a special school where everyone gets a prize. The guy and his party are a shambles. The only real question is which of the two biggest parties are the bigger shambles and to answer that you might as well toss a coin.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 4, 2019)

In other news today... Change UK elects Anna Soubry as their new leader - Luciana Berger, Chuka Umuna, Sarah Wollaston are not on the official list of their MP s any more 
Neither are Gavin Shuker, Joan Ryan and Angela Smith - not clear if they are all going to join the Lib Dems, sit as independents or do something else altogether - what is clear is the group has found it v hard to make the kind of impact they'd hoped for at the start


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I thought we were talking about the last GE? So why is DC mentioned? Corbyn/Labour lost the last GE with May as PM. He lost an election against arguably the worst PM we've ever had as leader of one of the worst governments we've ever had. In my book that isn't a success. It's not sports day at a special school where everyone gets a prize. The guy and his party are a shambles. The only real question is which of the two biggest parties are the bigger shambles and to answer that you might as well toss a coin.
		
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You do realise TM had only been PM 9 months when she called the last GE, so in 9 months you decided she was arguably the worst PM weâ€™ve ever had?
It was the first GE heâ€™d fought after becoming Labour Leader helped by all those tories pissing themselves when they joined the Labour Party to vote for him.
Is he a waste of space? yes, imo, 
Do I wish Labour had someone else? Yes.
Is it his or Labourâ€™s fault TM or the tory party are inept? No, absolutely not.


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			In other news today... Change UK elects Anna Soubry as their new leader - Luciana Berger, Chuka Umuna, Sarah Wollaston are not on the official list of their MP s any more
Neither are Gavin Shuker, Joan Ryan and Angela Smith - not clear if they are all going to join the Lib Dems, sit as independents or do something else altogether - what is clear is the group has found it v hard to make the kind of impact they'd hoped for at the start
		
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They just don't seem to get the message that they are part of the problem, not the solution. They jumped ship(s) from parties that were making a horlicks of things, thinking they themselves were shining knights on white chargers. The electorate told them exactly what they think of them in the EU elections. You'd hope that having been sent that message they would ask the electorate via a by-election to endorse their mandate, they not now being in a party whose mandate the electorate will have considered when originally electing them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 4, 2019)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...ump-begins-second-day-of-state-visit-11734422

NHS part of a trade deal ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			In other news today... Change UK elects Anna Soubry as their new leader - Luciana Berger, Chuka Umuna, Sarah Wollaston are not on the official list of their MP s any more
Neither are Gavin Shuker, Joan Ryan and Angela Smith - not clear if they are all going to join the Lib Dems, sit as independents or do something else altogether - what is clear is the group has found it v hard to make the kind of impact they'd hoped for at the start
		
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I have been told the Change UK splinter group will be called The Real Change UK Party.


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## Hobbit (Jun 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...ump-begins-second-day-of-state-visit-11734422

NHS part of a trade deal ?
		
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Liam Fox had already said this morning that it wouldn't be on the table. He did go into a long winded explanation about why it couldn't be included, something to do with the legislation surrounding its initial formation meaning it would take changes in law to achieve it.

That said, its been getting sold off piecemeal since Labour went down the PFI route in the 90's/00's.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You do realise TM had only been PM 9 months when she called the last GE, so in 9 months you decided she was arguably the worst PM weâ€™ve ever had?
It was the first GE heâ€™d fought after becoming Labour Leader helped by all those tories pissing themselves when they joined the Labour Party to vote for him.
Is he a waste of space? yes, imo,
Do I wish Labour had someone else? Yes.
Is it his or Labourâ€™s fault TM or the tory party are inept? No, absolutely not.
		
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So we agree then. Corbyn and the Labour party are inept. TM and the Conservatives are a shambles. But these are two completely separate and unrelated facts.


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## drdel (Jun 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...ump-begins-second-day-of-state-visit-11734422

NHS part of a trade deal ?
		
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No. It's about procurement of medicine etc not running the NHS


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## Fade and Die (Jun 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Liam Fox had already said this morning that it wouldn't be on the table. He did go into a long winded explanation about why it couldn't be included, something to do with the legislation surrounding its initial formation meaning it would take changes in law to achieve it.

That said, its been getting sold off piecemeal since Labour went down the PFI route in the 90's/00's.
		
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Guy on LBC was saying over the last 20 years more and more NHS jobs are subcontracted out to foreign companies, including hip replacement operations etc. Also the NHS often has to buy overpriced drugs from within the EU.
Not checked it out but looks like 9 billion was spent 2016/17 on the Private sector in England alone...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-44043959


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			If youâ€™re defending a homophobic rant because it was made a few years ago then youâ€™re part of the problem, not the solution. Please GO AWAY.
		
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I don't know if you have heard of Voltaire or not , but it seems clear you do not agree with his sentiment.


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## Kellfire (Jun 4, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I don't know if you have heard of Voltaire or not , but it seems clear you do not agree with his sentiment.
		
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Freedom of speech is not extended to everything and it takes a very particular type of crazy to believe it should.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 4, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So we agree then. Corbyn and the Labour party are inept. TM and the Conservatives are a shambles. But these are two completely separate and unrelated facts. 

Click to expand...

Sadly people like to link them together though as an excuse for Government failures.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			No. It's about procurement of medicine etc not running the NHS
		
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It may not initially but there's only one way this will end up once there's "a deal "

Without the medicine the NHS doesn't function.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			It may not initially but there's only one way this will end up once there's "a deal "

Without the medicine the NHS doesn't function.
		
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Why do you think the  NHS wont get the medicines they need to function?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Freedom of speech is not extended to everything and it takes a very particular type of crazy to believe it should.
		
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Who decides where it is extended to?


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



*Yes, I'm sure all the the Tory voting Brexiters on here would have been climbing over each other to sing his praises*.

As has been said a million times, he's made a hash of Brexit with his lack of clarity and that has cost him. But as also been said a million times he is not in government, so it's not his job to ensure a process very much associated with the Tory party, that was created to appease the more hard right of said party, gets enacted.  Yet again the theme of it always being someone else's fault emerges, the EU, Labour, [insert scapegoat here]....
		
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As a Tory voting Brexiteer, I'd be more than happy to give him some credit if he managed to do what Madam May and her saboteurs failed to achieve.


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## Kellfire (Jun 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Who decides where it is extended to?
		
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In terms of what is legal? Law makers. Otherwise, fill your boots as itâ€™s an opinion. It certainly isnâ€™t Voltaire.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			In terms of what is legal? Law makers. Otherwise, fill your boots as itâ€™s an opinion. It certainly isnâ€™t Voltaire.
		
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 Are Law Makers never wrong?


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## Kellfire (Jun 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are Law Makers never wrong?
		
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Of course they are. I was just answering your question. Sadly I donâ€™t get to decide the law.


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## IanM (Jun 6, 2019)

Hey Doon, what has been going on???   EU withholds giving us back a proportion of our own money

EU reckons irregularities in management of funds???      ............ pot/kettle irony overload!


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			Hey Doon, what has been going on???   EU withholds giving us back a proportion of our own money

EU reckons irregularities in management of funds???      ............ pot/kettle irony overload!
		
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You must know the rules by now. It's bad news so it must be the fault of Westminster and the Conservatives. ðŸ˜‰


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 6, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			You must know the rules by now. It's bad news so it must be the fault of Westminster and the Conservatives. ðŸ˜‰
		
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Either them or the UK Party with the most MEPâ€™s.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			Hey Doon, what has been going on???   EU withholds giving us back a proportion of our own money

EU reckons irregularities in management of funds???      ............ pot/kettle irony overload!
		
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Quoting the Broken Record ...â€¦...did you see in the same issue the have The Rangers signing Sturridge for Â£120,000.00 per week


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2019)

Really good article in Time magazine with the added bonus of pictures by the ever excellent Cold War Steve, including Cilla  https://time.com/5601982/how-brexit-broke-britain/


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## IanM (Jun 6, 2019)

The thing is, European Federalism has never been popular....   but the non stop barrage of pro EU messages designed to change this didn't actually work..   It's not just here either, Referenda in other countries would be really interesting.....as I found out when working in France.   

Brexit didn't divide us, we were already divided by the morphing of a trading bloc into a full blown country without bothering to ask anyone if they approved.   Listed to the multiple EU Presidents talking on the subject.  The have stopped pretending now, but they must break Brexit or the rush for the door will be massive... 

The genie is out of the bottle.  Like the USSR... people eventually say "enough!"


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			The thing is, European Federalism has never been popular....   but the non stop barrage of pro EU messages designed to change this didn't actually work..   It's not just here either, Referenda in other countries would be really interesting.....as I found out when working in France.  

*Brexit didn't divide us, we were already divided by the morphing of a trading bloc into a full blown country without bothering to ask anyone if they approve*d.   Listed to the multiple EU Presidents talking on the subject.  The have stopped pretending now, but they must break Brexit or the rush for the door will be massive...

The genie is out of the bottle.  Like the USSR... people eventually say "enough!"
		
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I'd suggest there is some slight rewriting of history there.  Yes there was unease about Europe as there always has been in some parts of the Tory party and The Daily Mail opinion writers.  But we were no way divided anywhere near what we are now. As the article said, Europe was nowhere near the top of the list of voters concerns before 2016 and also Brexit was not primarily about our membership of the EU anyway.  And drawing any sort of parallel or comparison with conditions in the USSR where we are throwing off an evil oppressive regime is sub Daily Express level tosh. IMHO


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## robinthehood (Jun 6, 2019)

IanM said:



			The thing is, European Federalism has never been popular....   but the non stop barrage of pro EU messages designed to change this didn't actually work..   It's not just here either, Referenda in other countries would be really interesting.....as I found out when working in France.  

Brexit didn't divide us, we were already divided by the morphing of a trading bloc into a full blown country without bothering to ask anyone if they approved.   Listed to the multiple EU Presidents talking on the subject.  The have stopped pretending now, but they must break Brexit or the rush for the door will be massive...

The genie is out of the bottle.  *Like the USSR... people eventually say "enough*!"
		
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What a load of hysterical BS. 

like the USSR


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What a load of hysterical BS. 

like the USSR 

Click to expand...

Great counter debate ðŸ™„


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd suggest there is some slight rewriting of history there.  Yes there was unease about Europe as there always has been in some parts of the Tory party and The Daily Mail opinion writers.  But we were no way divided anywhere near what we are now. As the article said, Europe was nowhere near the top of the list of voters concerns before 2016 and also Brexit was not primarily about our membership of the EU anyway.  And drawing any sort of parallel or comparison with conditions in the USSR where we are throwing off an evil oppressive regime is sub Daily Express level tosh. IMHO
		
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Surely his comparrison with the USSR is not related to evil opression but a growing super state that history shows us always ends up a disaster as it gradually saps away countries soverignty and peoples democracy.


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## robinthehood (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely his comparrison with the USSR is not related to evil opression but a growing super state that history shows us always ends up a disaster as it gradually saps away countries soverignty and peoples democracy.
		
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I think you need to brush up on your modern history.


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely his comparrison with the USSR is not related to evil opression but a growing super state that history shows us always ends up a disaster as it gradually saps away countries soverignty and peoples democracy.
		
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There was a great piece done by a Cambridge Uni professor several years ago in which he draws a number of comparisons between the growing centralisation(federalism) of the EU and how a number of states within the USSR forced the breakup of Russia by decentralisation. There was no Brexit bias to it, or there didn't seem to be. The referendum hadn't even happened. 

The conclusion, short version; if the EU continues to centralise, especially as the Southern European states come out of recession and stabilise, there will be a growing unrest. However, he qualified that by saying that is based on the assumption that the Commission doesn't react in a positive, unconfrontational, way to the need for change.

My own view; the Southern European states receive an nice little lump from the EU. Would they be willing to give that up? TBH, I don't think they can afford to. To do so would in all probability see them fall back into recession.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I think you need to brush up on your modern history.
		
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My grasp of history is very good,  the point I made runs deep through history including the British and Roman Empires.  If you have a challenge then please try to articulate it in more than an unsubstantiated one liner.
Read the post above as a perfect example of an educated reply.


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## User62651 (Jun 7, 2019)

So Labour win Peterborough, Nigel spinning it but must be deflated. Getting MPs is not so easy. 
Well done Peterborough voters, some sanity prevails.


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## robinthehood (Jun 7, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So Labour win Peterborough, Nigel spinning it but must be deflated. Getting MPs is not so easy.
Well done Peterborough voters, some sanity prevails.
		
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Yes and in what was a high vote leave area too.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 7, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So Labour win Peterborough, Nigel spinning it but must be deflated. Getting MPs is not so easy.
Well done Peterborough voters, *some sanity prevails*.
		
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Electing a Marxist  anti-Semite to replace a disgraced criminal is sanity? ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜±


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## jp5 (Jun 7, 2019)

Wow. Expected TBP to take Peterboro, though difficult without a manifesto! 

Looks like they are taking mostly CON voters - spells big trouble for them at the next GE.


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Electing a Marxist  anti-Semite to replace a disgraced criminal is sanity? ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜±ðŸ˜±
		
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The Labour Party's own official Jewish section asked for her deselection, and refused to canvas in Peterborough, yet she still gets in. Two things from that, Labour/foot in mouth? and the people in Peterborough don't mind voting in an anti-semite fruit loop - the CIA and Mossad created Islamic extremist groups, apparently...


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## JamesR (Jun 7, 2019)

May be it just shows the value of a political party having a manifesto, and some policies, which aren't just Brexit, Brexit, Brexit.


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## robinthehood (Jun 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely his comparrison with the USSR is not related to evil opression but a growing super state that history shows us always ends up a disaster as it gradually saps away countries soverignty and peoples democracy.
		
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Yes so much so that some of those former ussr states joined the EU.


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## IanM (Jun 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes so much so that some of those former ussr states joined the EU.
		
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Yes, they thought it was more democratic!  They got bundles of cash and the opportunity to export their unemployment! 

Now, they find they've replaced one bad system with another, their brightest and best have cleared off to the West and the cash is running out! 

Watch this space....


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## robinthehood (Jun 7, 2019)

IanM said:



			Yes, they thought it was more democratic!  They got bundles of cash and the opportunity to export their unemployment!

Now, they find they've replaced one bad system with another, their brightest and best have cleared off to the West and the cash is running out!

Watch this space....
		
Click to expand...

Ultimately humanity will have to come together on an unprecedented  scale if it's to survive what ever global  catastrophes come our way. And they will come . 
So little Englanders running around screaming about brexit when we should be forming ever closer ties for the sake of future generations is sad.


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## drdel (Jun 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes and in what was a high vote leave area too.
		
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The margin was a bit below 700 voters: winning with about 30% (10484) of the votes cast. Considering that the numbers still voting Tory (7243) would contain both leave and remain voters its hardly a ringing endorsement of Labour. Thus almost twice as many did not vote for Labour 18,000.

It demonstrates that in our system there is a danger that the 'winner' could easily be one that the vast majority don't want. When the TBP and Tories divide opinions the chance that Mr Corbyn ends up as PM is increased.


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I think you need to brush up on your modern history.
		
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Nothing wrong with SR's 'model' of history imo.

Perhaps you should consider brushing up on your 'interpretation of posts' skills though - or consider asking for clarification - before leaping to what seems to me (and I may, of course be wrong) to be a wrong interpretation!


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## robinthehood (Jun 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Nothing wrong with SR's 'model' of history imo.

Perhaps you should consider brushing up on your 'interpretation of posts' skills though - or consider asking for clarification - before leaping to what seems to me (and I may, of course be wrong) to be a wrong interpretation!
		
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You're wrong. But thanks for your input.


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...Read the post above as a perfect example of an *educated *reply.
		
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Now now! 'Proper' or 'appropriate' certainly! But education/qualfications generally has/have virtually nothing to do with 'quality of reply'!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			The margin was a bit below 700 voters: winning with about 30% (10484) of the votes cast. Considering that the numbers still voting Tory (7243) would contain both leave and remain voters its hardly a ringing endorsement of Labour. Thus almost twice as many did not vote for Labour 18,000.

It demonstrates that in our system there is a danger that the 'winner' could easily be one that the vast majority don't want. When the TBP and Tories divide opinions the chance that Mr Corbyn ends up as PM is increased.
		
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No complaints when it favours the tories though?
Nobody gave Labour a chance in Peterborough, especially given the circumstances surrounding this by-election, add in it was once a safe tory seat and the excuses being found and the sly digs being added already are once again looking like the tories and their supporters are looking for those excuses rather than facing facts.


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



*I think y*ou're wrong. But thanks for your input.
		
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FTFY!


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No complaints when it favours the tories though?
Nobody gave Labour a chance in Peterborough, especially given the circumstances surrounding this by-election, add in it was once a safe tory seat and the excuses being found and the sly digs being added already are once again looking like the tories and their supporters are looking for those excuses rather than facing facts.
		
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Agree with your first point, but have a look at how many times Peterborough has swapped Tory for Labour for Tory etc. Its considered a bellwether seat, usually flip-flopping between Labour and Tory. It usually tips towards the party in ascendancy, and is a fair indicator of who will be in power.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No complaints when it favours the tories though?
Nobody gave Labour a chance in Peterborough, especially given the circumstances surrounding this by-election, add in it was once a safe tory seat and the excuses being found and the sly digs being added already are once again looking like the tories and their supporters are looking for those excuses rather than facing facts.
		
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I know the area and  constituency quite well and it has not been a safe Conservative seat for many years. 

Changed hands consistently over time.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I know the area and  constituency quite well and it has not been a safe Conservative seat for many years.

Changed hands consistently over time.
		
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Hobbit said:



			Agree with your first point, but have a look at how many times Peterborough has swapped Tory for Labour for Tory etc. Its considered a bellwether seat, usually flip-flopping between Labour and Tory. It usually tips towards the party in ascendancy, and is a fair indicator of who will be in power.
		
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Tories had it from 2005-17, not the longest of periods, but lost it when the tories were in control.
That says more about them than Labour to me.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Tories had it from 2005-17, not the longest of periods, but lost it when the tories were in control.
That says more about them than Labour to me.
		
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Also says something about the Boundary Commission tweaking of the constituency.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2019)

61% of Peterborough voted leave.
Why did a combined Brexit/UKIP vote still fall short of Labour in by-election. ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			61% of Peterborough voted leave.
Why did a combined Brexit/UKIP vote still fall short of Labour in by-election. ?
		
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Because the EU Referendum wasnâ€™t done on Party lines!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because the EU Referendum wasnâ€™t done on Party lines!

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Not so simple I think...â€¦â€¦...Labour and Tory leave/remain vote would probably have cancelled each other out IMO.
That should have given the Leave parties a clear run and they still did to win.


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## IanM (Jun 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ultimately humanity will have to come together on an unprecedented  scale if it's to survive what ever global  catastrophes come our way. And they will come .
So little Englanders running around screaming about brexit when we should be forming ever closer ties for the sake of future generations is sad.
		
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Why spoil an excellent first point with the second one?   EU Federalism is nothing to do with the requirements of the first. It is about power not outcomes.   We have the UN for the first point and outsourcing our government to Brussels  has little to do with it!  

But I guess the Federalists are using whatever they can to justify themselves...... climate change, shortages of toilet paper etc etc


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			... I think...
		
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H'mm! I think not!

Or perhaps 'I think wishfully'!

Certainly more than 1 factor involved imo! So actual reasons are pretty difficult to fathom - except by a 'detailed' Exit Questionnaire (not just a simple Poll), which I don't believe happened.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2019)

Dan Snow [former front man for Lets Stay Together 2014] now in favour of an Independent Scotland within the EU.
Bit of a wind change there Dan.

Meanwhile...â€¦...Johnson and Rabb battle it out to be the last ever UK Tory MP.


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not so simple I think...â€¦â€¦...Labour and Tory leave/remain vote would probably have cancelled each other out IMO.
That should have given the Leave parties a clear run and they still did to win.
		
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62% of Tories voted Leave, and 32% of Labour voted Leave. And you think in a marginal seat they cancel each other out? Guess you weren't an accountant...


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## adam6177 (Jun 7, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48554853

Hardly surprising, it has been thrown out of court. What a frivolous waste of money and poor attempt to discredit.


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## robinthehood (Jun 7, 2019)

adam6177 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48554853

Hardly surprising, it has been thrown out of court. What a frivolous waste of money and poor attempt to discredit.
		
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Oof, Just stick on the 100mil we've wasted on brexit consultants


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2019)

adam6177 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48554853

Hardly surprising, it has been thrown out of court. *What a frivolous waste of money and poor attempt to discredit.*

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I agree it is an absolute waste of money to do this to try and discredit Boris. 









As he does it for free every time he opens him mouth.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 7, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1136973847473901569
Tommy Robinson doing what he does


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2019)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48543313

no doubt if this had been an English Tory MP some forumers would've had a field day!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1136973847473901569
Tommy Robinson doing what he does
		
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Scum bag needs locking up!


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## robinthehood (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Scum bag needs locking up!
		
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He's just misunderstood.....


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2019)

Dando said:



https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48543313

no doubt if this had been an English Tory MP some forumers would've had a field day!
		
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Not sure anyone would be having a field day over someone who has had a miscarriage this week.  But she did something wrong, it's obviously has very serious repercussions on her mental health and she's off to jail. Not sure the flavour of her politics make any difference to a tragic story.


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not sure anyone would be having a field day over someone who has had a miscarriage this week.  But she did something wrong, it's obviously has very serious repercussions on her mentalhealth and she's off to jail. Not sure the flavour of her politics make any difference to a tragic story.
		
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I didn't mean anyone would have a field day over someone having a miscarriage and maybe I should've made that clear and said that my comment was purely in relation to her embezzlement charge as I forgot how some on here like to twist things


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## IanM (Jun 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			an Independent Scotland within the EU.
		
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I get it, that's the same as a Catholic Rangers Fan or a wearing a Celtic Shirt in the drum and pipe corps!     can you make jokes like that?  _It's all Christianity to me dude! _


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## Fade and Die (Jun 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Dan Snow [former front man for Lets Stay Together 2014] now in favour of an *Independent Scotland within the EU*.
Bit of a wind change there Dan.

Meanwhile...â€¦...Johnson and Rabb battle it out to be the last ever UK Tory MP.
		
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That's the biggest lie the scotch nazi party tell to the Mcsheeple... Scotland simply cannot leave the UK and be admitted into the EU, they know the only way Scotland *can* be in the EU is to remain in the UK.  (i imagine poor old Doons face when he realises is a bit like the Guardian editor when he is trying to do a story about the muslims blockading a schools for teaching about LBGT rights)


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Tories had it from 2005-17, not the longest of periods, but lost it when the tories were in control.
That says more about them than Labour to me.
		
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Really? Itâ€™s becoming a little worrying how much everything is always the Tories fault in your eyes. Again, itâ€™s a bellwether seat, and very well recognised and acknowledged as such. It will flip-flop when things are close and at by-elections.

Itâ€™s also says a huge amount about Labour that they can barely scrape a win over a nothing Party that has no manifesto at a by-elections.

A decent Labour Party, with a centre-left position, well led and with a credible leader and Shadow Cabinet(Abbott, really?) should be streets ahead of an inept Tory govt. The fact that they are not says a hell of a lot to me too.

If it was an exam I'd struggle to give both the Tories and Labour more than 2 out of 10.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If it was an exam I'd struggle to give both the Tories and Labour more than 2 out of 10.
		
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Diane Abbott would claim that was seven.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Really? Itâ€™s becoming a little worrying how much everything is always the Tories fault in your eyes. Again, itâ€™s a bellwether seat, and very well recognised and acknowledged as such. It will flip-flop when things are close and at by-elections.

Itâ€™s also says a huge amount about Labour that they can barely scrape a win over a nothing Party that has no manifesto at a by-elections.

A decent Labour Party, with a centre-left position, well led and with a credible leader and Shadow Cabinet(Abbott, really?) should be streets ahead of an inept Tory govt. The fact that they are not says a hell of a lot to me too.

*If it was an exam I'd struggle to give both the Tories and Labour more than 2 out of 10*.
		
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Is there any party that would get more than half marks at the moment?  One may be tempted to give the Brexit Party a better score but after last night's result, which was probably as open a goal as they will get to get a proper MP (as opposed the MEPs that no one really counts), not sure they'd muster half marks.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Diane Abbott would claim that was seven.
		
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Hobbit said:



			Really? Itâ€™s becoming a little worrying how much everything is always the Tories fault in your eyes. Again, itâ€™s a bellwether seat, and very well recognised and acknowledged as such. It will flip-flop when things are close and at by-elections.

Itâ€™s also says a huge amount about Labour that they can barely scrape a win over a nothing Party that has no manifesto at a by-elections.

A decent Labour Party, with a centre-left position, well led and with a credible leader and Shadow Cabinet(Abbott, really?) should be streets ahead of an inept Tory govt. The fact that they are not says a hell of a lot to me too.

If it was an exam I'd struggle to give both the Tories and Labour more than 2 out of 10.
		
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Again Brian, why do the 2 things have to be connected, ideally weâ€™d like a strong Government (any party) and a strong opposition (any party) but everytime someone mentions how weak or poor the tories are, the come back is always the same, ignore the tories and state, labour are .........
Itâ€™s like me asking you why Boro didnâ€™t get promoted and you answering â€œwell neither did Leedsâ€
And the icing on the cake?
Once again letâ€™s have a dig at Abbott and backed up by the next post.

Labour are a shambles, Labour need to sort their act out, imo, Labour need a new leader, none of that is the reason why the tories are so bad.

I take your point on Peterborough, but yesterday and even today with them winning fault is still found in Labour rather than the other parties failures.

This thread, apart from a few posters, is like a right wing/tory love in at times and I believe itâ€™s about time a bit of balance or honesty was posted, no issue with getting wrong at times, just not going to blame tories for Labourâ€™s issues.


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is there any party that would get more than half marks at the moment?  One may be tempted to give the Brexit Party a better score but after last night's result, which was probably as open a goal as they will get to get a proper MP (as opposed the MEPs that no one really counts), not sure they'd muster half marks.
		
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TBH, I think the rebuilding job that the LibDems have been on for a few years, aided by several own goals elsewhere, is making me watch them a little more closely. But you're right, there isn't anyone I'd give 5 out of 10 to at present.


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Again Brian, why do the 2 things have to be connected, ideally weâ€™d like a strong Government (any party) and a strong opposition (any party) but everytime someone mentions how weak or poor the tories are, the come back is always the same, ignore the tories and state, labour are .........
Itâ€™s like me asking you why Boro didnâ€™t get promoted and you answering â€œwell neither did Leedsâ€
And the icing on the cake?
Once again letâ€™s have a dig at Abbott and backed up by the next post.

Labour are a shambles, Labour need to sort their act out, imo, Labour need a new leader, none of that is the reason why the tories are so bad.

I take your point on Peterborough, but yesterday and even today with them winning fault is still found in Labour rather than the other parties failures.

This thread, apart from a few posters, is like a right wing/tory love in at times and I believe itâ€™s about time a bit of balance or honesty was posted, no issue with getting wrong at times, just not going to blame tories for Labourâ€™s issues.
		
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I'm all for honesty, but lets include Labour in that. They are both as bad as each other.

As for the Abbott comment, why not? She's an appalling Shadow Home Sec. The thought of her in office scares me. The thought of McDonnell scares me even more - he is downright dangerous. But why can't I use Abbott as a good example of what is bad in Labour? Is she off limits? If you look back through some threads you will see I have praised her for a constituency work and the work she has done on mental health. But at the level she's at now, she's a bad joke.

As why do the 2 things have to be connected? My reason for stating it was you, of late, continually bash the Tories in almost everything. I see both sides as different peas in the same pod. In this instance both parties contested a by-election. Labour won it, barely, but still won it. And in my eyes if they struggle to beat a new, one trick pony, party, there is something equally wrong with them.

You've said Labour are a shambles, but Lordy if someone links them in a thread to an inept Tory party you're all over them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm all for honesty, but lets include Labour in that. They are both as bad as each other.

As for the Abbott comment, why not? She's an appalling Shadow Home Sec. The thought of her in office scares me. The thought of McDonnell scares me even more - he is downright dangerous. But why can't I use Abbott as a good example of what is bad in Labour? Is she off limits? If you look back through some threads you will see I have praised her for a constituency work and the work she has done on mental health. But at the level she's at now, she's a bad joke.

As why do the 2 things have to be connected? My reason for stating it was you, of late, continually bash the Tories in almost everything. I see both sides as different peas in the same pod. In this instance both parties contested a by-election. Labour won it, barely, but still won it. And in my eyes if they struggle to beat a new, one trick pony, party, there is something equally wrong with them.

You've said Labour are a shambles, but Lordy if someone links them in a thread to an inept Tory party you're all over them.
		
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Bashing the tories or questioning why people are avoiding answering the question about the tories.
Who actually done worse in Peterborough last night? Labour won against the odds, straight away we had post having a go at the new MP, not questioning the tories or The Brexit Party etc, straight in kicking the MP.
Yes I have gone all over a couple of people when linked to a point about inept tories, because theyâ€™re deflecting, itâ€™s not answering the point, itâ€™s burying their head in the sand and hoping it all goes away.
Abbott is an easy target used to score cheap points, my comment wasnâ€™t aimed at you, it was the follow up post, nothing constructive simply letâ€™s kick that old can along the road.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Bashing the tories or questioning why people are avoiding answering the question about the tories.
Who actually done worse in Peterborough last night? Labour won against the odds, straight away we had post having a go at the new MP, not questioning the tories or The Brexit Party etc, straight in kicking the MP.
Yes I have gone all over a couple of people when linked to a point about inept tories, because theyâ€™re deflecting, itâ€™s not answering the point, itâ€™s burying their head in the sand and hoping it all goes away.
Abbott is an easy target used to score cheap points, my comment wasnâ€™t aimed at you, it was the follow up post, nothing constructive simply letâ€™s kick that old can along the road.
		
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But you have filters that block out criticism of the Torys and let in criticism of Labour.
No one here is praising the Torys record, I think we all believe it to be appalling, especially in the way they have mismanaged Brexit.  Labour have also done their best to frustrate Brexit and be vague to the point of riddicule on clarifying where they stand.  Alas, you will interpret this post as being  protective of the Conservatives and unfair to Labour.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 7, 2019)

So the moral of the story after the last few posts is that both the main political parties are currently very poor with the only consolation being that your specific party is slightly less crap than the other one, depending on who you vote for, Tommy Robinson is a violent thug and the new Brexit party can't win a seat at a GE?  So in a way we are all losers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But you have filters that block out criticism of the Torys and let in criticism of Labour.
No one here is praising the Torys record, I think we all believe it to be appalling, especially in the way they have mismanaged Brexit.  Labour have also done their best to frustrate Brexit and be vague to the point of riddicule on clarifying where they stand.  Alas, you will interpret this post as being  protective of the Conservatives and unfair to Labour.
		
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No Iâ€™m not, feel free to waste your time searching this thread and show were I have even once praised Labour over Brexit or where they stand.
My point is, and always has been, is how much tory supporters have criticised the tory party for their handling of Brexit and then brought Labour in to the post like you have above to somehow back up the tory c@ck up.

Yes, I recognise itâ€™s simplistic, Yes, I understand others donâ€™t agree.
Imo, only one party and one party alone is responsible for this mess, if they had had their act together we would be out now.
Itâ€™s amazing how they can come together and give her a vote of confidence in Parliament but fail to give her the backing for her deal.
They had the power within their grasp all along, regardless of any other party, but yet when many of themselves have failed to support her deal as itâ€™s seen as bad and Labour havenâ€™t supported it, we get the â€œLabour have also done their best to frustrate Brexitâ€ Labour should of been made irrelevant, not used as scapegoats.


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...
Labour are a shambles, Labour need to sort their act out, imo, Labour need a new leader...
		
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Amen to that! While Corbyn is leader, Tories are going to have so many weapons to damage him, therefore Labour, with! No-one on their current front bench is capable, imo, of being a credible winner! Yvette Cooper seems to me to be the best candidate, but unlikely to pass the 'rank and file' selection process!


pauldj42 said:



			...
none of that is the reason why the tories are so bad.
...
		
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Brexit aside, I don't believe Tories 'are so bad'! Though, traditionally 'unity' is a Tory strength. The problem the Tories have is that Brexit is SO divisive that that unity, therefore the PM's leadership is 'naturally undermined'! As I stated way back in 2016, it was/is a poisoned chalice! I'm almost certain that, if they were honest/not whipped, Labour would be pretty split also - though, imo, rather less than the Tories!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			That's the biggest lie the scotch nazi party tell to the Mcsheeple... Scotland simply cannot leave the UK and be admitted into the EU, they know the only way Scotland *can* be in the EU is to remain in the UK.  (i imagine poor old Doons face when he realises is a bit like the Guardian editor when he is trying to do a story about the muslims blockading a schools for teaching about LBGT rights)

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You seem to be getting a bit 'over excited'.
The EU will welcome an Independent Scotland along side the other 27 independent countries.

I do not have a scooby what any of this has to do with Muslims and schools


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Bashing the tories or questioning why people are avoiding answering the question about the tories.
Who actually done worse in Peterborough last night? Labour won against the odds, straight away we had post having a go at the new MP, not questioning the tories or The Brexit Party etc, straight in kicking the MP.
Yes I have gone all over a couple of people when linked to a point about inept tories, because theyâ€™re deflecting, itâ€™s not answering the point, itâ€™s burying their head in the sand and hoping it all goes away.
Abbott is an easy target used to score cheap points, my comment wasnâ€™t aimed at you, it was the follow up post, nothing constructive simply letâ€™s kick that old can along the road.
		
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I totally agree with the criticism levelled at the new MP. She's already publicly apologised for liking anti-semitic posts on social media. She also said that Theresa May had a "Zionist Slave Masters Agenda." A Labour backbencher has said she's glad the Nigel Farage's party didn't win the the by-election but she couldn't be gleeful or proud because it shows that antisemitism is becoming normal in the party.

The Tories might well be solely responsible for the Brexit mess but the discussion was about Peterborough. And Labour have used Brexit as a vehicle to disrupt the govt to gain office. That's understandable but what would they have achieved with their "6 points" in a Parliament that is hung.

Personally, I hope Labour get crucified by the equalities commission for their appalling ineptitude in dealing with anti-semitism. They can sack Alistair Cambell in hours but it takes years for suspended MP's to be kicked out for anti-semitism.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I totally agree with the criticism levelled at the new MP. She's already publicly apologised for liking anti-semitic posts on social media. She also said that Theresa May had a "Zionist Slave Masters Agenda." A Labour backbencher has said she's glad the Nigel Farage's party didn't win the the by-election but she couldn't be gleeful or proud because it shows that antisemitism is becoming normal in the party.

The Tories might well be solely responsible for the Brexit mess but the discussion was about Peterborough. And Labour have used Brexit as a vehicle to disrupt the govt to gain office. That's understandable but what would they have achieved with their "6 points" in a Parliament that is hung.
		
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So should the tories and their supporters be asking why Peterborough is more of a disaster for them or deflecting on to the Labour MP? For all the worries about her, sheâ€™s not the reason they lost.

As for Labour and Brexit are you suggesting they should of just â€œsucked it upâ€ and supported her deal?
The â€œ6 Brexit Linesâ€ were set out in 2017 before we knew the deal and were effectively ripped up when Corbyn offered to work with TM earlier this year.


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...
Imo, only one party and one party alone is responsible for this mess, if they had had their act together we would be out now.
Itâ€™s amazing how they can come together and give her a vote of confidence in Parliament but fail to give her the backing for her deal.
...
		
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The problem, imo, is that attitudes of MPs to Brexit are so evenly split (in a virtually hung parliament) that it's unlikely that ANY real decision/division can be relied upon to get passed! I'm pretty certain that, while there are a number of totally committed Leavers and/or Remainers who will bulk out any vote, there are also sufficient 'swingers' either way that NO progress toward resolution within Parliament will be achieved!


pauldj42 said:



			...
They had the power within their grasp all along, regardless of any other party, but yet when many of themselves have failed to support her deal as itâ€™s seen as bad and Labour havenâ€™t supported it, we get the â€œLabour have also done their best to frustrate Brexitâ€ Labour should of been made irrelevant, not used as scapegoats.
		
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May's 'deal' WAS (potentially) BAD, as it was eminently possible - likely even - for actions outside UK Government's real control, to prevent UK from ever actually leaving!

And certainly, Labour has frustrated the Tories along the way. May's 'majority' was so slim, that that was always going to be likely! And an Opposition's job is 'to oppose', so that's exactly what they are doing!

It's an impasse that, I believe, is only resolvable by a confirming Referendum, where Parliament pre-commits to implementing a Leave result! But that still doesn't solve the possibility/likelihood of the 'bad agreement' that's (the only agreement) on the table!


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## Fade and Die (Jun 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to be getting a bit 'over excited'.
*The EU will welcome an Independent Scotland along side the other 27 independent countries.*

I do not have a scooby what any of this has to do with Muslims and schools 

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The idea that the E.U. would welcome in 27 more spongers after loosing one of its biggest contributors is laughable! ðŸ˜‚.... (seriously though mate, maybe get help,ðŸ¤­)


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So should the tories and their supporters be asking why Peterborough is more of a disaster for them or deflecting on to the Labour MP? For all the worries about her, sheâ€™s not the reason they lost.

As for Labour and Brexit are you suggesting they should of just â€œsucked it upâ€ and supported her deal?
The â€œ6 Brexit Linesâ€ were set out in 2017 before we knew the deal and were effectively ripped up when Corbyn offered to work with TM earlier this year.
		
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TBH, I couldn't careless what the Tories and their supporters do. They are a busted flush as a govt, and maybe as a party too. Irrespective of who the party is, a hung Parliament is almost paralysed and the govt is unable to function. The UK needs a GE, even as unpalatable as that might be to an electorate feed up with politics without one it'll be Groundhog Day for some time to come.

Labour offered to drop its 6 points but only with a list of (5) other demands that they obviously knew would be unacceptable. The pretence at compromise was as bad as May's offer to work with Labour. Neither side shifted their position.

Are you happy with Labour's choice of MP for Peterborough? An anti-semite? We both know the answer to that question.


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## Dando (Jun 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The idea that the E.U. would welcome in 27 more spongers after loosing one of its biggest contributors is laughable! ðŸ˜‚.... (seriously though mate, maybe get help,ðŸ¤­)
		
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He should try stand up with jokes like that ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			TBH, I couldn't careless what the Tories and their supporters do. They are a busted flush as a govt, and maybe as a party too. Irrespective of who the party is, a hung Parliament is almost paralysed and the govt is unable to function. The UK needs a GE, even as unpalatable as that might be to an electorate feed up with politics without one it'll be Groundhog Day for some time to come.

Labour offered to drop its 6 points but only with a list of (5) other demands that they obviously knew would be unacceptable. The pretence at compromise was as bad as May's offer to work with Labour. Neither side shifted their position.

Are you happy with Labour's choice of MP for Peterborough? An anti-semite? We both know the answer to that question.
		
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TM only offered to talk as a last resort because she had nowhere else to turn, these invitations should of happened prior to any negotiations and were no more than a publicity stunt imo.

As for Lisa Forbes, Iâ€™ve no idea tbh, Iâ€™ve seen the accusations and Iâ€™ve seen her apologise twice, maybe she should be given a chance and let the people of Peterborough sit in judgement.


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			TM only offered to talk as a last resort because she had nowhere else to turn, these invitations should of happened prior to any negotiations and were no more than a publicity stunt imo.

As for Lisa Forbes, Iâ€™ve no idea tbh, Iâ€™ve seen the accusations and Iâ€™ve seen her apologise twice, maybe she should be given a chance and let the people of Peterborough sit in judgement.
		
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And there you go again, blaming the Tories and TM. You're right, they are to blame but where's the acknowledgement the Labour's appearance to work together was disingenuous. You only see one side of the coin.

And now you're making excuses for an anti-semite. She shouldn't have been selected in the first place, with those comments being public knowledge. Labour withdrew the Whip from a criminal and offered it to an anti-semite. She's apologised because she's been caught out. Do you think she's changed her mind on the subject, really? 

Labour just keep giving where this subject is concerned.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And there you go again, blaming the Tories and TM. You're right, they are to blame but where's the acknowledgement the Labour's appearance to work together was disingenuous. You only see one side of the coin.

And now you're making excuses for an anti-semite. She shouldn't have been selected in the first place, with those comments being public knowledge. Labour withdrew the Whip from a criminal and offered it to an anti-semite. She's apologised because she's been caught out. Do you think she's changed her mind on the subject, really?

Labour just keep giving where this subject is concerned.
		
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Itâ€™s only your opinion that Labour was being disingenuous by agreeing to the talks, thatâ€™s no different me having the opinion TM was forced in to making the offer, why didnâ€™t she call his bluff when he offered after the 1st defeat rather than wait 4 months and until the last minute, youâ€™re once again seeing any negative tory posts as pro Labour, Iâ€™d love Corbyn to be found out and gotten rid of.

Like I also said about Lisa Forbes, Iâ€™ve no idea, Iâ€™d never heard of her until the past couple of weeks and for all that was said against her, and she acknowledged, the people of Peterborough decided to elect her.

I donâ€™t have enough knowledge to tell you what I think about anti-semitism and what is right or wrong, some of her actions were no more than her â€œlikingâ€ a video that had anti-semite comments attached, she put her side across and apologised.
People are now going back years and years researching peopleâ€™s public posts to try and catch them out.
People change, attitudes change both negatively and postively.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The idea that the E.U. would welcome in 27 more spongers after loosing one of its biggest contributors is laughable! ðŸ˜‚.... (seriously though mate, maybe get help,ðŸ¤­)
		
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27 more.â€¦.where did that come from.
Scotland, and probably NI, will simply replace the UK

You are beginning to sound like the arrogant ex husband.
How are you gonna survive without me etc etc

Scotland will do just fine but perhaps you need to consider how what is left of the UK you will fit in with the new order..


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## Fade and Die (Jun 7, 2019)

Maybe people criticise Labour so much because they feel let down by them? They are utterly failing at the one job they have, providing a credible opposition to the sitting government. When the nation is crying out for an alternative to this hopeless government, labour are moving further away from the common man, allowing momentum to dictate policy, marginalising good labour MPs like Kate hoey and Frank Field because they are not Marxists!


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## Hobbit (Jun 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Maybe people criticise Labour so much because they feel let down by them? They are utterly failing at the one job they have, providing a credible opposition to the sitting government. When the nation is crying out for an alternative to this hopeless government, labour are moving further away from the common man, allowing momentum to dictate policy, marginalising good labour MPs like Kate hoey and Frank Field because they are not Marxists!
		
Click to expand...

Labour have been there before and, in all probability, will swing back the other way when the electorate have had enough of the extremes. And when you look at what the Tories have done to social care, I hope its damn soon.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			27 more.â€¦.where did that come from.
Scotland, and probably NI, will simply replace the UK

You are beginning to sound like the arrogant ex husband.
How are you gonna survive without me etc etc

Scotland will do just fine but perhaps you need to consider how what is left of the UK you will fit in with the new order..
		
Click to expand...

And you sound like a high maintenance ex wife wondering who her next sugar daddy will be, once the maintenance money doesnâ€™t cover all the cheques the SNP will write... shamelessly lifting your skirt for the E.U.!ðŸ˜œ


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## Fade and Die (Jun 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Labour have been there before and, in all probability, will swing back the other way when the electorate have had enough of the extremes. And when you look at what the Tories have done to social care, I hope its damn soon.
		
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I agree, they need a long time in opposition but with Comrade Corbyn and his shower waiting to fill the high offices of state the country will have to put up with them!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Maybe people criticise Labour so much because they feel let down by them? They are utterly failing at the one job they have, providing a credible opposition to the sitting government. When the nation is crying out for an alternative to this hopeless government, labour are moving further away from the common man, allowing momentum to dictate policy, marginalising good labour MPs like Kate hoey and Frank Field because they are not Marxists!
		
Click to expand...

They arenâ€™t though are they? They are moving away from the centre left of Blair, if anything itâ€™s towards the common man, the problem with that is, is the common man isnâ€™t there anymore, the workplace and society has changed.
Labour will remain a poor opposition so long as the Party is split.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			They arenâ€™t though are they? They are moving away from the centre left of Blair, if anything itâ€™s towards the common man, the problem with that is, is the common man isnâ€™t there anymore, the workplace and society has changed.
Labour will remain a poor opposition so long as the Party is split.
		
Click to expand...


Sadly true, it cannot appeal to both the metropolitan champagne socialists and the traditional labour voter in the north. Maybe they should split, ditch the corbynites and maybe get the Scots back inside?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Sadly true, it cannot appeal to both the metropolitan champagne socialists and the traditional labour voter in the north. Maybe they should split, ditch the corbynites and maybe get the Scots back inside?
		
Click to expand...

Labour in Scotland is a dead duck.
They chose the wrong option in 2014 and then joined a pact with the Tories in the 2017 election. They won't ever come back from there.
Three dreadful leaders on the trot. Murphy, Dugdale and Richard Wotsisname.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to be getting a bit 'over excited'.
The EU will welcome an Independent Scotland along side the other 27 independent countries.

I do not have a scooby what any of this has to do with Muslims and schools 

Click to expand...


Independent countries don't respond "how high" when Brussels shouts JUMP!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 8, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Independent countries don't respond "how high" when Brussels shouts JUMP!
		
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That is true, the 27 independent countries work together to set the height of the bar.
Unlike the Tory government who do not seem to have any understanding of what 'working together' is.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is true, the 27 independent countries work together to set the height of the bar.
		
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I believe that is known as #deluded... Don't believe there has ever been any collective thought in Brussels that has ever had any real value to 'ordinary man'...


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## drdel (Jun 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is true, the 27 independent countries work together to set the height of the bar.
Unlike the Tory government who do not seem to have any understanding of what 'working together' is.
		
Click to expand...

I guess your experience of the workings in Brussels is not first hand. EU "...working together..." as in 'do what we say' NOT 'do as we do'. When did member states get to decide? Brussels pretty much always follows what the various Directorates dictate. The difference is exemplified by how Brussels constructs its own budget that exceeds the growth and/or debt limits imposed on the states.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			I guess your experience of the workings in Brussels is not first hand. EU "...working together..." as in 'do what we say' NOT 'do as we do'. When did member states get to decide? Brussels pretty much always follows what the various Directorates dictate. The difference is exemplified by how Brussels constructs its own budget that exceeds the growth and/or debt limits imposed on the states.[
		
Click to expand...


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## JamesR (Jun 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			....good labour MPs like Kate hoey and Frank Field...
		
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ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Fade and Die (Jun 9, 2019)

JamesR said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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Roger Godsif and Lisa Forbes more your cup of tea Jim? ðŸ˜®


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2019)

Has there been a good Labour MP since Robin Cook?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 9, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Has there been a good Labour MP since Robin Cook?
		
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Alan Johnson immediately springs to mind, David Milliband is a big loss.

Any decent ones now are on the back benches waiting for Corbyn to go. They don't want to be tainted by associating with his leadership.


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Alan Johnson immediately springs to mind, David Milliband is a big loss.

Any decent ones now are on the back benches waiting for Corbyn to go. They don't want to be tainted by associating with his leadership.
		
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I've just had a look at Gordon Brown's last Cabinet. Apart from those that are no longer in politics, there's quite a few that you could add. Apart from the idiots at the top, there is still a good number that could turn the party around. Unfortunately the party's own structure and processes no longer lends itself to control by the MP's. As we've seen, grass roots supporters are keeping Corbyn as leader.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2019)

Testify.. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1137689381639204865


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2019)

At this point is it worth recalling that Cameron called Brexit with only 37% of the UK supporting his party far less Brexit.
63% did not want him to be PM.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			At this point is it worth recalling that Cameron called Brexit with only 37% of the UK supporting his party far less Brexit.
63% did not want him to be PM.
		
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The only thing that proves is that there were a lot of voters for Leave who are/were not Conservative supporters. 

Hardly news.


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## User62651 (Jun 9, 2019)

Interesting analysis video link I saw through FB about why No Deal Brexit is likely only beneficial to the very rich. Quite recent and worth a watch I think no matter your views on EU, see if u agree with none, any or all of it. Narrated by the ever-wise Stephen Fry.


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## robinthehood (Jun 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Interesting analysis video link I saw through FB about why No Deal Brexit is likely only beneficial to the very rich. Quite recent and worth a watch I think no matter your views on EU, see if u agree with none, any or all of it. Narrated by the ever-wise Stephen Fry.






Click to expand...

youre forgetting brexit means wwe can have blue passports and powerfull hoovers.

result!


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Testify..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1137689381639204865

Click to expand...

Listened to it twice. What a crock...


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			At this point is it worth recalling that Cameron called Brexit with only 37% of the UK supporting his party far less Brexit.
63% did not want him to be PM.
		
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Not sure the point you're trying to make. At the 2017 election 36.9% of Scottish voters voted for the SNP. Nicola Sturgeon wants another independence referendum but 63% did not want her to be First Minister.

So are you saying that there shouldn't have been an EU referendum because only 37% of the population supported Cameron? In which case you must surely agree that there shouldn't be a Scottish independence referendum because only 37% of Scots supported the SNP.


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Interesting analysis video link I saw through FB about why No Deal Brexit is likely only beneficial to the very rich. Quite recent and worth a watch I think no matter your views on EU, see if u agree with none, any or all of it. Narrated by the ever-wise Stephen Fry.






Click to expand...

If, as Fry says, the UK has full sovereignty why did it oppose a number of laws from the EU and lose 16% of those cases? All the information about law making and law opposition is out there. In a recent piece the Remain side went from saying the UK was in full control of its laws to saying the UK lost only 16% of the diktats it opposed, with the emphasis on only. Other Remainers, some of which are on here, have said they prefer the EU making the UK's laws as successive UK govts are inept and/or untrustworthy.

Is the UK in full control of setting its own laws? Technically, yes. The diktats from the EU have to be turned into UK law by the UK parliament. But in a number of cases the UK has reluctantly accepted those laws after opposing them but losing the case.

Full sovereignty? Colour it whichever way you want but the answer is the UK does not have full, independent sovereignty.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not sure the point you're trying to make. At the 2017 election 36.9% of Scottish voters voted for the SNP. Nicola Sturgeon wants another independence referendum but 63% did not want her to be First Minister.

So are you saying that there shouldn't have been an EU referendum because only 37% of the population supported Cameron? In which case you must surely agree that there shouldn't be a Scottish independence referendum because only 37% of Scots supported the SNP.
		
Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not sure the point you're trying to make. At the 2017 election 36.9% of Scottish voters voted for the SNP. Nicola Sturgeon wants another independence referendum but 63% did not want her to be First Minister.

So are you saying that there shouldn't have been an EU referendum because only 37% of the population supported Cameron? In which case you must surely agree that there shouldn't be a Scottish independence referendum because only 37% of Scots supported the SNP.
		
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I am saying that considerably less than the 37% who voted for Cameron were Brexit supporters so his real support for his yet to be proposed Brexit would have been between 18 to 28% of the 37%


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am saying that considerably less than the 37% who voted for Cameron were Brexit supporters so his real support for his yet to be proposed Brexit would have been between 18 to 28% of the 37%
		
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A lot of those that didnâ€™t vote Tory @ that election voted for UKIP, didnâ€™t they?


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2019)

JamesR said:



			A lot of those that didnâ€™t vote Tory @ that election voted for UKIP, didnâ€™t they?
		
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## ColchesterFC (Jun 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am saying that considerably less than the 37% who voted for Cameron were Brexit supporters so his real support for his yet to be proposed Brexit would have been between 18 to 28% of the 37%
		
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But the only % that actually matters is the 52% that voted leave. Regardless of how many people supported having a vote the majority of those that voted were in favour of Brexit.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If, as Fry says, the UK has full sovereignty why did it oppose a number of laws from the EU and lose 16% of those cases? All the information about law making and law opposition is out there. In a recent piece the Remain side went from saying the UK was in full control of its laws to saying the UK lost only 16% of the diktats it opposed, with the emphasis on only. Other Remainers, some of which are on here, have said they prefer the EU making the UK's laws as successive UK govts are inept and/or untrustworthy.

Is the UK in full control of setting its own laws? Technically, yes. The diktats from the EU have to be turned into UK law by the UK parliament. But in a number of cases the UK has reluctantly accepted those laws after opposing them but losing the case.

Full sovereignty? Colour it whichever way you want but the answer is the UK does not have full, independent sovereignty.
		
Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087360379691380736


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087360379691380736

Click to expand...

The Guardian did an excellently researched, well balanced article early this year - not a rubbish Twitter feed. They showed that for all the weeping and wailing from Leavers about all the laws coming out of the EU the reality was that out of over 4,000 laws from the EU the UK had happily accepted 87% of them. Of the 13% they weren't happy with, 84% of their appeals were lost. The Guardian's slant was that, in the main, the UK has recognised that to be part of the club they will have to accept some laws they're not keen on. Seems quite reasonable.

You do realise that Jim Grace acknowledges that the UK opposed a number of laws and directives but then goes onto say the UK govt is "the bad guys...." "Bad guys" bit is subjective and unintelligent. 

He proved the point, as he has "done some research," that the UK opposed laws but had them enforced. Ergo the UK does not have full, independent sovereignty.

And just what is your point, other than to reinforce that the EU imposes laws and that no EU member state has full, independent sovereignty?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2019)

If you don't have full control of your laws, your borders, your trading arrangements, your defence and your money then you cannot be an independant sovereign country.  I am not suggesting everyone wants us to be soverign as I do understand there are European federalists amongst us, that is of course their perogative.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Testify..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1137689381639204865

Click to expand...


The last unbiased Guardian article I read was in 1976... they reported it was sunny in July.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The last unbiased Guardian article I read was in 1976... they reported it was sunny in July.
		
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Was it in the afternoon?


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## Fade and Die (Jun 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Was it in the afternoon?
		
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Maybe...but it was probably in spite of Brexit. ðŸ˜


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## Kellfire (Jun 10, 2019)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560156971


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 10, 2019)

Kellfire said:



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560156971

Click to expand...

So the biggest cause of the slump is car manufacturers sensibly changing the times of the annual shut down from summer to spring. It would have happened anyway, but letâ€™s blame it all on Brexit. Jesus this is tedious.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2019)

Kellfire said:



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560156971

Click to expand...

Dont just post a spurious link, use it to support a theory, if you have one.

Car production was put on hold in preparation for a No Deal exit and stockpiling stopped which affected orders.

The following is also in the linked article:
*"However, monthly economic growth figures tend to be volatile and are prone to revision when more detailed data comes in. "*


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So the biggest cause of the slump is car manufacturers sensibly changing the times of the annual shut down from summer to spring. It would have happened anyway, but letâ€™s blame it all on Brexit. Jesus this is tedious.
		
Click to expand...

I haven't read the article, it takes the hump because I have ad-blocker to fight off the stupid screen blocking adverts that come on here every so often. Anyway, is not one of the biggest issues for the whole car industry the emmissions issue? Customers, ie you and I, are frightened to buy a new car as the car we would likely get, a diesel, is now the work of the devil. The car we would like to get, electric, is still stupidly expensive with a range too short and not enough charging points. The customer is left in limbo so rather than spend Â£20-Â£30k on a car that may be the 'wrong' car, they are holding back. That is hammering the car industry across Europe.


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## drdel (Jun 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I haven't read the article, it takes the hump because I have ad-blocker to fight off the stupid screen blocking adverts that come on here every so often. Anyway, is not one of the biggest issues for the whole car industry the emmissions issue? Customers, ie you and I, are frightened to buy a new car as the car we would likely get, a diesel, is now the work of the devil. The car we would like to get, electric, is still stupidly expensive with a range too short and not enough charging points. The customer is left in limbo so rather than spend Â£20-Â£30k on a car that may be the 'wrong' car, they are holding back. That is hammering the car industry across Europe.
		
Click to expand...

Car production is down across the globe because of falling demand. JLR is one example of a maker who thought China would keep growing but the economy slowed and their domestic manufacturers 'copied' some JLR models : more reliable and cheaper !!

Manufacturers are refocussing on electric models and robotic manufacture and assembly means more throughput from fewer sites.


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## drdel (Jun 11, 2019)

EU will now look to electronic/IT to ensure smooth trade for benefit of Ireland post Brexit - this is despite Barnier and his team declaring less than 6 months ago that no systems exist


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			EU will now look to electronic/IT to ensure smooth trade for benefit of Ireland post Brexit - this is despite Barnier and his team declaring less than 6 months ago that no systems exist
		
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You contradicted yourself.
Look to IMO = not yet existing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You contradicted yourself.
Look to IMO = not yet existing.
		
Click to expand...

It happens already with sea and air freight. Goods are cleared whilst in transit so that they arrive and are effectively put through on the nod. It also happens already at various borders across the world, US / Canada is one for example. There would need more people to manage it and a degree of trust is required but for 99% of hauliers would not try to fiddle customs so it will work. The EU were being obstructive in their rejection of this in the past.


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## drdel (Jun 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You contradicted yourself.
Look to IMO = not yet existing.
		
Click to expand...

I'm afraid you're wrong. Systems do exist tis the EU who declared they don't; they do not say they are looking to develop them, even though the UK has declared they will. It might have been more sensible for the EU to have declared they will work with the UK to refine current customs clearing and 'free-port' infrastructure.


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm afraid you're wrong. Systems do exist tis the EU who declared they don't; they do not say they are looking to develop them, even though the UK has declared they will. It might have been more sensible for the EU to have declared they will work with the UK to refine current customs clearing and 'free-port' infrastructure.
		
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Sorry to be repetitive, and I'm only using your post as a vehicle to reply. It does already exist between EU and Non-Eu countries. Its answered in detail earlier in the thread, including links to the Beeb's website, where there are a couple of pieces. There's a good piece on Norway's border, and another piece on Estonia's border, that includes how containers on a train are checked. Within the Norway piece is a list of countries/border across Europe where this already exists in one form or another.

And if you go to the EU's own website you will see they are already running a project that will see every cross-border trade transaction will be done electronically within 5 years.


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## drdel (Jun 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry to be repetitive, and I'm only using your post as a vehicle to reply. It does already exist between EU and Non-Eu countries. Its answered in detail earlier in the thread, including links to the Beeb's website, where there are a couple of pieces. There's a good piece on Norway's border, and another piece on Estonia's border, that includes how containers on a train are checked. Within the Norway piece is a list of countries/border across Europe where this already exists in one form or another.

And if you go to the EU's own website you will see they are already running a project that will see every cross-border trade transaction will be done electronically within 5 years.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, in fact, I was involved in setting the spec for CHIEF way back in the developing days of electronic trade protocols so I can assure anyone in doubt the stuff is out there and working.

Like all systems the capability can be enhanced and that should be the grown up response of the EU with the UK


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It happens already with sea and air freight. Goods are cleared whilst in transit so that they arrive and are effectively put through on the nod. It also happens already at various borders across the world, US / Canada is one for example. There would need more people to manage it and a degree of trust is required but for 99% of hauliers would not try to fiddle customs so it will work. The EU were being obstructive in their rejection of this in the past.
		
Click to expand...

And 'random' checks are the way to deter the sort of fraudulent activity that is feared by the 'must check everything' purists! And there's always a way around the check everything 'security' for REAL criminals anyway! Again, random/variable checks are actually a pretty good counter to rigid procedures that can be bypassed by 'organised' corruption!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm afraid you're wrong. Systems do exist tis the EU who declared they don't; they do not say they are looking to develop them, even though the UK has declared they will. It might have been more sensible for the EU to have declared they will work with the UK to refine current customs clearing and 'free-port' infrastructure.
		
Click to expand...

So why did the Tory Party Brexit negotiators not state this.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So why did the Tory Party Brexit negotiators not state this.
		
Click to expand...

Mainly because they were utter rubbish and incompetent


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## spongebob59 (Jun 11, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1138457750759968768


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## Hobbit (Jun 11, 2019)

Headline from The Euro News Weekly.

*Spain sacks Edinburgh consul after saying country would welcome an independent Scotland*

And if only one country says no........ wonder how wee Jimmy will spin this one?


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## Fade and Die (Jun 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Headline from The Euro News Weekly.

*Spain sacks Edinburgh consul after saying country would welcome an independent Scotland*

And if only one country says no........ wonder how wee Jimmy will spin this one?
		
Click to expand...


Or Doon?ðŸ˜


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Or Doon?ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

You sound desperate to hang on the Scotland, why's that?
BTW one of the SNP's MEP is in line for chairing one of the EU's biggest committees...â€¦.the boot may be on the other foot re Brexit settlement.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You sound desperate to hang on the Scotland, why's that?
BTW one of the SNP's MEP is in line for chairing one of the EU's biggest committees...â€¦.the boot may be on the other foot re Brexit settlement.
		
Click to expand...


Boris has said no money unless we get a deal so everything is sorted. ðŸ˜œ

Re hanging onto Scotland, yes I am a unionist, I supported Better Together and I have family in the highlands so I know what the real feelings of the Scots are, (and they are not the same as yours!ðŸ˜„)


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You sound desperate to hang on the Scotland, why's that?
BTW one of the SNP's MEP is in line for chairing one of the EU's biggest committees...â€¦.the boot may be on the other foot re Brexit settlement.
		
Click to expand...

Probably the Mep's entertainment and expenses committee, It has the largest budget. He should be good for that as the Snp have a lot of experience spending other people's money.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Mainly because they were utter rubbish and incompetent
		
Click to expand...

Correct...â€¦.. but probably was because it is not ready yet as well.

.


Fade and Die said:



			Boris has said no money unless we get a deal so everything is sorted. ðŸ˜œ

Re hanging onto Scotland, yes I am a unionist, I supported Better Together and I have family in the highlands so I know what the real feelings of the Scots are, (and they are not the same as yours!ðŸ˜„)
		
Click to expand...

No only about 65% agree with me, and as you will know the Highlands is very pro Europe.
Have you not seen the Yellow map......a couple of wee smudges of orange for Orkney and Shetland but no trace of blue or red elsewhere.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Correct...â€¦.. but probably was because it is not ready yet as well.

.


No only about 65% agree with me, and as you will know the Highlands is very pro Europe.
Have you not seen the Yellow map......a couple of wee smudges of orange for Orkney and Shetland but no trace of blue or red elsewhere.

Click to expand...

I thought most voted against indi ðŸ¤”


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## Fade and Die (Jun 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought most voted against indi ðŸ¤”
		
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Correctamundo... The people of Scotland voted to reject half baked nationalist ideas and remain part of the UK... Doon, as is the fashion for the defeated nowadays has never recognised the result and never will... Poor old frustrated Doon ðŸ˜†


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Correctamundo... The people of Scotland voted to reject half baked nationalist ideas and remain part of the UK... Doon, as is the fashion for the defeated nowadays has never recognised the result and never will... Poor old frustrated Doon ðŸ˜†
		
Click to expand...

They were also advised by the UK government that the only way they could remain in the EU was to vote against Scottish independence.
That is a significant change.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They were also advised by the UK government that the only way they could remain in the EU was to vote against Scottish independence.
That is a significant change.
		
Click to expand...

Prove that statement


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## IanM (Jun 12, 2019)

....and Frau Merkel talks this week about the impending EU Army....

..thought that was a Leave Lie? Short Memories eh?


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## Kellfire (Jun 12, 2019)

IanM said:



			....and Frau Merkel talks this week about the impending EU Army....

..thought that was a Leave Lie? Short Memories eh?
		
Click to expand...

I have a question - why do people think an EU army would be a bad thing?

A larger, cooperative army that shares values, goals and technology. 

Isnâ€™t that a good thing?


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			I have a question - why do people think an EU army would be a bad thing?

A larger, cooperative army that shares values, goals and technology.

Isnâ€™t that a good thing?
		
Click to expand...

Because they have little actual modern capability (long gone are the days of rolling tanks and stuff around fields) and the decision making system would be fraught with information leaks, rotating 'command', delay and drag.


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## Hobbit (Jun 12, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			I have a question - why do people think an EU army would be a bad thing?

A larger, cooperative army that shares values, goals and technology.

Isnâ€™t that a good thing?
		
Click to expand...

The EU Defence and Security force has been deployed over 30 times to 3 different continents since 2002. As a Defence force within the EU borders, no problem. I absolutely don't agree with, for example, Malayasia requesting the Defence force because it has a trade deal with the EU. Why does the EU need a Defence force to protect a trade deal? Why isn't the UN first there? Why has the EU Defence force been deployed to Africa, to the DRC, for lengthy Police issues at the behest of the UN?

The beefed up version is being driven by France, quietly supported by Germany. The new command and control structure that is being proposed, please god never ever - permanently controlled by a French president.

As I said earlier, for protection with in EU borders, yes no problem at all. For deployment outside of that, absolutely no. That has to be a UN task force. If the UN approaches EU member states individually, and they are deployed under a UN badge, fine.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2019)

On Saturday I returned from more than four months travelling with Mrs Hogan in very distant parts.  Over that period I have largely remained detached from this forum and what's going on in the UK - other than Brexit from which I have been semi-detached as it is impossible to avoid - with all and sundry in NZ and Oz asking us what the heck's going on?  Anyway - now we are back I have done a quick skim read of the last few weeks of post on this topic and have come to a couple of conclusions.

1) The Brexit _No Deal_ option seems to have morphed from the essential part of the Withdrawal Agreement negotiating strategy that would force the EU (through pressure from German Car manufacturers, French Cheese and Wine producers etc) to give the UK a great deal (see various statement by Dave Davies etc) into something that 17.4m voters actually positively _chose _when they voted to Leave.  I have read such comment and just today heard one more such voter vociferously and passionately state that what was said by anyone prior to the vote in respect of a Deal was actually irrelevant, as the vote was Remain or Leave - no mention of any deal on the voting paper - and so by definition 17.4m voters voted to leave without a deal. What has been going on since the vote has simply been a Remainer ploy to try and agree something that 17.4m voters did not vote for - viz - a deal; with any such deal simply being a fop to the Losers of the Remain Camp (though largely focussed on Tory remain voters) to try and keep them vaguely happy - though why Remainer couldn't just accept being losers goodness only knows.

And that argument does not seem to require any serious examination or check (through such as a confirmatory vote) as the vote has been taken - and the vote was to leave with no deal.  I also read hear many confident statements in respect of there being a solution for Irish Border - always been one - like the negotiations to come up with a 'deal' - just another EU/Remain ploy to thwart the will of the people.  No problems or issue - all will be well.  Just wait and see.

And so in the face of such certainty maybe I just accept that they are all correct.  I see little point in arguing to the contrary.  Let the leave begin on 31st October - and let us leave with No Deal.  I see a very significant positive from that outcome - because a leave with No Deal on 31st Oct is the same outcome as a leave with No Deal today - and as it would have been if we had left on 31st March or indeed the  day after the vote.  Nothing that has happened in the nearly three years since the vote will have had any effect.  And that will be good - because whatever subsequently happens to the UK economy will be directly attributable to the UK leaving without a deal; the leading proponents of Leave will be able to accept all the plaudits for their wisdom and foresight, and all those who voted to Leave congratulated on their having faith in that leadership and the capacity of the UK and the UK people to become GREAT Britain once more.

2) For the time being I will remain detached - or at least semi-detached - from commenting on Johnson, May, Farage and Brexit.  Why?  Because in my quick look through the last month or so of replies to posts on political matters I read too many responses and retorts that are cynical, dismissive, sarcastic, condescending, arrogant, angry, personal and aggressive.  I have had a lovely four months travelling - going to beautiful places; seeing marvellous things and meeting lovely people. Many of the people wonder what on earth the UK s doing to itself - they actually like and care for us and the UK as we are and they are completely baffled.  But on the basis of much of the goings on in the country and reflected by the posts on this forum we are changing - and I am not going to get myself back embroiled in what has been going on on this forum over the last four months.  It's sad but true.  I'm out (until I'm not  )


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On Saturday I returned from more than four months travelling with Mrs Hogan in very distant parts.  Over that period I have largely remained detached from this forum and what's going on in the UK - other than Brexit from which I have been semi-detached as it is impossible to avoid - with all and sundry in NZ and Oz asking us what the heck's going on?  Anyway - now we are back I have done a quick skim read of the last few weeks of post on this topic and have come to a couple of conclusions.

1) The Brexit _No Deal_ option seems to have morphed from the essential part of the Withdrawal Agreement negotiating strategy that would force the EU (through pressure from German Car manufacturers, French Cheese and Wine producers etc) to give the UK a great deal (see various statement by Dave Davies etc) into something that 17.4m voters actually positively _chose _when they voted to Leave.  I have read such comment and just today heard one more such voter vociferously and passionately state that what was said by anyone prior to the vote in respect of a Deal was actually irrelevant, as the vote was Remain or Leave - no mention of any deal on the voting paper - and so by definition 17.4m voters voted to leave without a deal. What has been going on since the vote has simply been a Remainer ploy to try and agree something that 17.4m voters did not vote for - viz - a deal; with any such deal simply being a fop to the Losers of the Remain Camp (though largely focussed on Tory remain voters) to try and keep them vaguely happy - though why Remainer couldn't just accept being losers goodness only knows.

And that argument does not seem to require any serious examination or check (through such as a confirmatory vote) as the vote has been taken - and the vote was to leave with no deal.  I also read hear many confident statements in respect of there being a solution for Irish Border - always been one - like the negotiations to come up with a 'deal' - just another EU/Remain ploy to thwart the will of the people.  No problems or issue - all will be well.  Just wait and see.

And so in the face of such certainty maybe I just accept that they are all correct.  I see little point in arguing to the contrary.  Let the leave begin on 31st October - and let us leave with No Deal.  I see a very significant positive from that outcome - because a leave with No Deal on 31st Oct is the same outcome as a leave with No Deal today - and as it would have been if we had left on 31st March or indeed the  day after the vote.  Nothing that has happened in the nearly three years since the vote will have had any effect.  And that will be good - because whatever subsequently happens to the UK economy will be directly attributable to the UK leaving without a deal; the leading proponents of Leave will be able to accept all the plaudits for their wisdom and foresight, and all those who voted to Leave congratulated on their having faith in that leadership and the capacity of the UK and the UK people to become GREAT Britain once more.

2) For the time being I will remain detached - or at least semi-detached - from commenting on Johnson, May, Farage and Brexit.  Why?  Because in my quick look through the last month or so of replies to posts on political matters I read too many responses and retorts that are cynical, dismissive, sarcastic, condescending, arrogant, angry, personal and aggressive.  I have had a lovely four months travelling - going to beautiful places; seeing marvellous things and meeting lovely people. Many of the people wonder what on earth the UK s doing to itself - they actually like and care for us and the UK as we are and they are completely baffled.  But on the basis of much of the goings on in the country and reflected by the posts on this forum we are changing - and I am not going to get myself back embroiled in what has been going on on this forum over the last four months.  It's sad but true.  I'm out (until I'm not  )
		
Click to expand...

Groan!!!   Hes back ðŸ˜«


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Groan!!!   Hes back ðŸ˜«
		
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QED


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## Dando (Jun 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On Saturday I returned from more than four months travelling with Mrs Hogan in very distant parts.  Over that period I have largely remained detached from this forum and what's going on in the UK - other than Brexit from which I have been semi-detached as it is impossible to avoid - with all and sundry in NZ and Oz asking us what the heck's going on?  Anyway - now we are back I have done a quick skim read of the last few weeks of post on this topic and have come to a couple of conclusions.

1) The Brexit _No Deal_ option seems to have morphed from the essential part of the Withdrawal Agreement negotiating strategy that would force the EU (through pressure from German Car manufacturers, French Cheese and Wine producers etc) to give the UK a great deal (see various statement by Dave Davies etc) into something that 17.4m voters actually positively _chose _when they voted to Leave.  I have read such comment and just today heard one more such voter vociferously and passionately state that what was said by anyone prior to the vote in respect of a Deal was actually irrelevant, as the vote was Remain or Leave - no mention of any deal on the voting paper - and so by definition 17.4m voters voted to leave without a deal. What has been going on since the vote has simply been a Remainer ploy to try and agree something that 17.4m voters did not vote for - viz - a deal; with any such deal simply being a fop to the Losers of the Remain Camp (though largely focussed on Tory remain voters) to try and keep them vaguely happy - though why Remainer couldn't just accept being losers goodness only knows.

And that argument does not seem to require any serious examination or check (through such as a confirmatory vote) as the vote has been taken - and the vote was to leave with no deal.  I also read hear many confident statements in respect of there being a solution for Irish Border - always been one - like the negotiations to come up with a 'deal' - just another EU/Remain ploy to thwart the will of the people.  No problems or issue - all will be well.  Just wait and see.

And so in the face of such certainty maybe I just accept that they are all correct.  I see little point in arguing to the contrary.  Let the leave begin on 31st October - and let us leave with No Deal.  I see a very significant positive from that outcome - because a leave with No Deal on 31st Oct is the same outcome as a leave with No Deal today - and as it would have been if we had left on 31st March or indeed the  day after the vote.  Nothing that has happened in the nearly three years since the vote will have had any effect.  And that will be good - because whatever subsequently happens to the UK economy will be directly attributable to the UK leaving without a deal; the leading proponents of Leave will be able to accept all the plaudits for their wisdom and foresight, and all those who voted to Leave congratulated on their having faith in that leadership and the capacity of the UK and the UK people to become GREAT Britain once more.

2) For the time being I will remain detached - or at least semi-detached - from commenting on Johnson, May, Farage and Brexit.  Why?  Because in my quick look through the last month or so of replies to posts on political matters I read too many responses and retorts that are cynical, dismissive, sarcastic, condescending, arrogant, angry, personal and aggressive.  I have had a lovely four months travelling - going to beautiful places; seeing marvellous things and meeting lovely people. Many of the people wonder what on earth the UK s doing to itself - they actually like and care for us and the UK as we are and they are completely baffled.  But on the basis of much of the goings on in the country and reflected by the posts on this forum we are changing - and I am not going to get myself back embroiled in what has been going on on this forum over the last four months.  It's sad but true.  I'm out (until I'm not  )[/QUOTE

Well I havenâ€™t missed your boring repetitive drivel!

Apparently the mood in New Zealand has improved massively since Saturday

I guess none of your posts have been dismissive or condescending have they!
		
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## Dando (Jun 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			QED 

Click to expand...

Well that didnâ€™t last long did it


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			QED 

Click to expand...

adversus solem ne loquitor


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On Saturday I returned from more than four months travelling with Mrs Hogan in very distant parts.  Over that period I have largely remained detached from this forum and what's going on in the UK - other than Brexit from which I have been semi-detached as it is impossible to avoid - with all and sundry in NZ and Oz asking us what the heck's going on?  Anyway - now we are back I have done a quick skim read of the last few weeks of post on this topic and have come to a couple of conclusions.

1) The Brexit _No Deal_ option seems to have morphed from the essential part of the Withdrawal Agreement negotiating strategy that would force the EU (through pressure from German Car manufacturers, French Cheese and Wine producers etc) to give the UK a great deal (see various statement by Dave Davies etc) into something that 17.4m voters actually positively _chose _when they voted to Leave.  I have read such comment and just today heard one more such voter vociferously and passionately state that what was said by anyone prior to the vote in respect of a Deal was actually irrelevant, as the vote was Remain or Leave - no mention of any deal on the voting paper - and so by definition 17.4m voters voted to leave without a deal. What has been going on since the vote has simply been a Remainer ploy to try and agree something that 17.4m voters did not vote for - viz - a deal; with any such deal simply being a fop to the Losers of the Remain Camp (though largely focussed on Tory remain voters) to try and keep them vaguely happy - though why Remainer couldn't just accept being losers goodness only knows.

And that argument does not seem to require any serious examination or check (through such as a confirmatory vote) as the vote has been taken - and the vote was to leave with no deal.  I also read hear many confident statements in respect of there being a solution for Irish Border - always been one - like the negotiations to come up with a 'deal' - just another EU/Remain ploy to thwart the will of the people.  No problems or issue - all will be well.  Just wait and see.

And so in the face of such certainty maybe I just accept that they are all correct.  I see little point in arguing to the contrary.  Let the leave begin on 31st October - and let us leave with No Deal.  I see a very significant positive from that outcome - because a leave with No Deal on 31st Oct is the same outcome as a leave with No Deal today - and as it would have been if we had left on 31st March or indeed the  day after the vote.  Nothing that has happened in the nearly three years since the vote will have had any effect.  And that will be good - because whatever subsequently happens to the UK economy will be directly attributable to the UK leaving without a deal; the leading proponents of Leave will be able to accept all the plaudits for their wisdom and foresight, and all those who voted to Leave congratulated on their having faith in that leadership and the capacity of the UK and the UK people to become GREAT Britain once more.

2) For the time being I will remain detached - or at least semi-detached - from commenting on Johnson, May, Farage and Brexit.  Why?  Because in my quick look through the last month or so of replies to posts on political matters I read too many responses and retorts that are cynical, dismissive, sarcastic, condescending, arrogant, angry, personal and aggressive.  I have had a lovely four months travelling - going to beautiful places; seeing marvellous things and meeting lovely people. Many of the people wonder what on earth the UK s doing to itself - they actually like and care for us and the UK as we are and they are completely baffled.  But on the basis of much of the goings on in the country and reflected by the posts on this forum we are changing - and I am not going to get myself back embroiled in what has been going on on this forum over the last four months.  It's sad but true.  I'm out (until I'm not  )
		
Click to expand...

IMO there's an underlying arrogance in your content and reinforced by the fact you feel the need to make a grand announcement. Many members will have gone and returned quietly; its hardly news !


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO there's an underlying arrogance in your content and reinforced by the fact you feel the need to make a grand announcement. Many members will have gone and returned quietly; its hardly news !
		
Click to expand...

Added to that the fact that he only ever seems to meet and talk to people that agree with his view of Brexit. Despite the fact that I wanted, and still want, to remain in the EU when I work in Europe I hear views from all sides. There are those that think we are crazy for voting to leave, those that really don't care either way as it won't affect their every day lives and those that are in support of the decision to leave. There are also people that think the EU should let us leave with no deal and those that think the EU need to be more flexible to do whatever they can to prevent us leaving with no deal. 

I'm currently working on a project in Denmark which is a collaboration between a Danish and German company to install a pipeline. Some of the German guys have been talking about the pressure that has been put on Merkel by manufacturers to make sure that the UK doesn't leave without a deal. Two of the Germans think that the EU should just tell us to get lost. They've been having more arguments among themselves about Brexit than they have with me. And yet in SiLH's world it seems he only ever meets people that support his view. They say that travel broadens the mind, maybe he needs to broaden the spectrum of people that he engages with rather than just those that agree with his views.


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## Dando (Jun 12, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Added to that the fact that he only ever seems to meet and talk to people that agree with his view of Brexit. Despite the fact that I wanted, and still want, to remain in the EU when I work in Europe I hear views from all sides. There are those that think we are crazy for voting to leave, those that really don't care either way as it won't affect their every day lives and those that are in support of the decision to leave. There are also people that think the EU should let us leave with no deal and those that think the EU need to be more flexible to do whatever they can to prevent us leaving with no deal. 

I'm currently working on a project in Denmark which is a collaboration between a Danish and German company to install a pipeline. Some of the German guys have been talking about the pressure that has been put on Merkel by manufacturers to make sure that the UK doesn't leave without a deal. Two of the Germans think that the EU should just tell us to get lost. They've been having more arguments among themselves about Brexit than they have with me. And yet in SiLH's world it seems he only ever meets people that support his view. They say that travel broadens the mind, maybe he needs to broaden the spectrum of people that he engages with rather than just those that agree with his views.
		
Click to expand...

I bet he wears a badge saying â€œI donâ€™t want to brexitâ€


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2019)

Hi Hogie, welcome back, glad you and Mrs Hogie had a good time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			Because they have little actual modern capability (long gone are the days of rolling tanks and stuff around fields) and the decision making system would be fraught with information leaks, rotating 'command', delay and drag.
		
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Scary thought...â€¦..imagine the not so magnificent 10 being in charge of anything that involved 'decision making'.


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## Dando (Jun 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hi Hogie, welcome back, glad you and Mrs Hogie had a good time. 

Click to expand...

I suppose 1 person had to happy to see him back


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## williamalex1 (Jun 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hi Hogie, welcome back, glad you and Mrs Hogie had a good time. 

Click to expand...

I'll second that, at least we know where he stands


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 12, 2019)

Dando said:



			I suppose 1 person had to happy to see him back
		
Click to expand...

And no surprise as to who it was.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2019)

Ok - thanks for the welcome back - well thanks Doon and Billy , a clarification is clearly required from me

1) is there anything that I have said about the views of those who voted leave and leaving with No Deal on 31st October that is now not true?  Unfortunately I don't think so, but I'll happily be corrected.  As a result my position *has *changed.

Four months out of it (which is why I mentioned it) and it seems that most Leave voters *now *want UK to leave the EU on 31st October with no deal agreed; and that being the case no compromise deal will satisfy as it will be seen as a form of sop to Remain voters and not what Leave voters voted for; further I fear that any compromise deal will only lead to the growth in support for Farage and the BP and that in my view will be very divisive and damaging to the UK.

Given that choice, and given the seemingly firm position of leave voters, I go for the former.  *Let us be having the UK leave the EU on 31st October with no deal agreed. * We will know that, whatever the eventual outcome and impact of doing so - and let us assume things turn out just fine - that will be as a result of the choice made by Leave leaders and voters and leave leaders and voters alone; there will be no 'what if' and 'if only' debates around what might have been achieved in negotiations had they been handled differently - and it might keep Farage away from any vestiges of real power in Westminster.

2) My observations were general and not aimed at forummers on one side of the debate or the other - though clearly they have been interpreted by some as being directed at one side only - that is not the case.  Forummers on both sides of the debate are at fault.  I'm not going to get involved.


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## Foxholer (Jun 13, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			...an EU army...

*A larger, cooperative army that shares values, goals and technology*.

...
		
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## Foxholer (Jun 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ok - thanks for the welcome back - well thanks Doon and Billy ...
		
Click to expand...

I was busy yesterday..Welcome back!



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...*Let us be having the UK leave the EU on 31st October with no deal agreed. * We will know that, whatever the eventual outcome and impact of doing so - and let us assume things turn out just fine - that will be as a result of the choice made *by Leave leaders and voters and leave leaders and voters alone*; there will be no 'what if' and 'if only' debates around what might have been achieved in negotiations had they been handled differently - and it might keep Farage away from any vestiges of real power in Westminster.
...
		
Click to expand...

Well, as a Remain voter who 'prefers' to leave (with no deal being fine, at least in preference to the deal 'offered'!) on 31/10 - as a 2nd choice/'consolation for not leaving on 29/3 - I clearly contradict the added bold bit - as, I believe from my interpretation of your post, do you!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2019)

Just discovered a bit of a Brexie Bonus.
Seemingly my house price has jumped in value.
Lots of demand from south of the border driving the market according to the agent.


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## Foxholer (Jun 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just discovered a bit of a Brexie Bonus.
Seemingly my house price has jumped in value.
Lots of demand from south of the border driving the market *according to the agent*.
		
Click to expand...


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## Dando (Jun 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just discovered a bit of a Brexie Bonus.
Seemingly my house price has jumped in value.
Lots of demand from south of the border driving the market according to the agent.
		
Click to expand...

So house prices have finally broken through the Â£100 barrier ðŸ˜‚


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## Slime (Jun 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just discovered a bit of a Brexie Bonus.
Seemingly my house price has jumped in value.
Lots of demand from south of the border driving the market according to the agent.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, right.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2019)

Another wee Brexie Bonus dropped through the letter box this morning.
Because of my age I am now considered a priority customer by my electricity supplier.
Handy when all those anticipated post Brexit power black outs occur.



Dando said:



			So house prices have finally broken through the Â£100 barrier ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

As you well know Scottish house prices in my area are well below where you live.
You could probably buy a farm/castle where I live for the price of your average 2 bed flat in London.
That's the equality of our 'precious union'.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As you well know Scottish house prices in my area are well below where you live.
You could probably buy a farm/castle where I live for the price of your average 2 bed flat in London.
That's the equality of our 'precious union'.
		
Click to expand...

Which means that those in your part of the world on the average wage will be paying far less of that wage as a percentage on their mortgage, or getting more property for the same percentage of average wage, than those down south, leaving more disposable income and thus the potential for a better quality of life. Yet  such is your hatred of all things English that you overlook that to focus on the price of an asset which in real terms has only one value; putting a roof over your head. This has to be a new low, even by your standards.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Which means that those in your part of the world on the average wage will be paying far less of that wage as a percentage on their mortgage, or getting more property for the same percentage of average wage, than those down south, leaving more disposable income and thus the potential for a better quality of life. Yet  such is your hatred of all things English that you overlook that to focus on the price of an asset which in real terms has only one value; putting a roof over your head. This has to be a new low, even by your standards.
		
Click to expand...

Oh for goodness sake stop being so precious and wind your neck in, it is the inequality within the Union I dislike not the English.
BTW your post was a pretty weird interpretation of that inequality


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## Hobbit (Jun 14, 2019)

Foreign investment in the UK, as reported by the BBC this week. The Beeb said that the whispers coming out of Singapore were that foreign investment from there will probably go to Germany and France. That was in a leaked letter from the retiring British High Commissioner.

What the Beeb *didn't* report was that there has been over Â£945 million of foreign investment so far this year, and that the combined foreign investment into Germany and France doesn't come close to what  the UK has received, including from companies within the EU.

I can just imagine all those who are about to leap all over their keyboard and say "but we haven't left yet" My answer to that would be do you think foreign companies would make risky investment decisions? Really?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What the Beeb *didn't* report was that there has been over Â£945 million of foreign investment so far this year, and that the combined foreign investment into Germany and France doesn't come close to what  the UK has received, including from companies within the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure that any time you mention something that is positive or could be described as good news you have to prefix it with the words "Despite Brexit...".


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## pendodave (Jun 14, 2019)

When I think of foreign 'investment' I think of Kraft investing in Cadbury, Australian investment banks buying up utilities and paying no tax while ramping up prices. I think of residential property being purchased and the market overheating. I think of money laundering.

Not saying it's all bad, but let's not think it's a good/bad binary. How many new companies and jobs has all that cash yielded?


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## Old Skier (Jun 14, 2019)

What is all this no deal nonsense, have all the previous agreements been kicked into touch while I have been touring the Greek Islands, (you think we dislike the EU).

PS and the latest "No Deal" with Germany was on security sharing matters.


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## Dando (Jun 14, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			What is all this no deal nonsense, have all the previous agreements been kicked into touch while I have been touring the Greek Islands, (you think we dislike the EU).

PS and the latest "No Deal" with Germany was on security sharing matters.
		
Click to expand...

No thereâ€™s only the original dogs dinner deal on the table as the EU wonâ€™t renegotiate


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## Old Skier (Jun 14, 2019)

Dando said:



			No thereâ€™s only the original dogs dinner deal on the table as the EU wonâ€™t renegotiate
		
Click to expand...

But there was an agreement that there would be no major changes on trade and travel until Dec 2020.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2019)

Compare and Contract Mark Rutte (Netherlands PM) interview on BBC this morning with Dave Davies (ex Brexit Sec and A.B.deP supporter) interview on LBC (both actually worth a listen).

Mark Rutte - frankly and seriously setting out an EU stance - _Hard Brexit_ means _Hard Brexit_  plus no changes to the WA but possible changes to side agreement if UK alters position on one or more of May's Red Lines - and expressing great disappointment we are leaving, but confusion and frankly disbelief over what UK really now wants out of negotiations and what UK expects to be able to achieve after a _No Deal_ Brexit as a country of 65m as opposed to being part of a grouping of 500m (well he would wouldn't he)

Dave Davies - breezy insouciance and optimistic assertions about same - on basis of what those such as Rutte say is all part of the EU's Project Fear; and that big business and financial services organisations will obviously be against a_ No Deal _exit because they are only interested in this and next years results - not the glittering prizes out there for future business and us all.

Just as well we have such such as Davies supporting A.B.deP candidature for PM as we all look to said candidate entering the negotiations and taking us out on 31/10.  And even although A.B.deP didn't say as much in the last debate - Davies tells us the A.B.deP *will* be taking the UK out of the EU on the 31/10 - and not one day later.  That's the sort of firm leadership and straight speaking we need.


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## Hobbit (Jun 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Compare and Contract Mark Rutte (Netherlands PM) interview on BBC this morning with Dave Davies (ex Brexit Sec and A.B.deP supporter) interview on LBC (both actually worth a listen).

Mark Rutte - frankly and seriously setting out an EU stance - _Hard Brexit_ means _Hard Brexit_  plus no changes to the WA but possible changes to side agreement if UK alters position on one or more of May's Red Lines - and expressing great disappointment we are leaving, but confusion and frankly disbelief over what UK really now wants out of negotiations and what UK expects to be able to achieve after a _No Deal_ Brexit as a country of 65m as opposed to being part of a grouping of 500m (well he would wouldn't he)

Dave Davies - breezy insouciance and optimistic assertions about same - on basis of what those such as Rutte say is all part of the EU's Project Fear; and that big business and financial services organisations will obviously be against a_ No Deal _exit because they are only interested in this and next years results - not the glittering prizes out there for future business and us all.

Just as well we have such such as Davies supporting A.B.deP candidature for PM as we all look to said candidate entering the negotiations and taking us out on 31/10.  And even although A.B.deP didn't say as much in the last debate - Davies tells us the A.B.deP *will* be taking the UK out of the EU on the 31/10 - and not one day later.  That's the sort of firm leadership and straight speaking we need.
		
Click to expand...

Rutte spoke a lot of sense, and a fair bit of rubbish. Add in the political posturing and what do you have? He's still right, in my eyes, in terms of is Brexit good or bad but beyond that its mainly waffle.

But here's a thought on one of his points, that of how big the EU is compared to the UK. There are only 5 net contributors to the EU, and some of those contribute next to nothing. In terms of what the others add to the whole concept, very little but they take plenty. Whilst Germany, France, Italy and Ireland try and balance the 14% loss of budget that the other 23 countries have said they won't contribute to or take less from, and from a budget that is supposed to be increasing above the GDP growth of the EU 27.

One of the predictions is it will push Ireland seriously into recession. Add all the other countries that are on the cusp of recession... The Germany's and France's won't suffer much but if they are expecting any help in the other countries.... The UK will suffer but if you think the majority of the EU will be in a position to make life difficult for the UK, or ease the burden on the EU budget you are deluded.


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## drdel (Jun 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Rutte spoke a lot of sense, and a fair bit of rubbish. Add in the political posturing and what do you have? He's still right, in my eyes, in terms of is Brexit good or bad but beyond that its mainly waffle.

But here's a thought on one of his points, that of how big the EU is compared to the UK. There are only 5 net contributors to the EU, and some of those contribute next to nothing. In terms of what the others add to the whole concept, very little but they take plenty. Whilst Germany, France, Italy and Ireland try and balance the 14% loss of budget that the other 23 countries have said they won't contribute to or take less from, and from a budget that is supposed to be increasing above the GDP growth of the EU 27.

One of the predictions is it will push Ireland seriously into recession. Add all the other countries that are on the cusp of recession... The Germany's and France's won't suffer much but if they are expecting any help in the other countries.... The UK will suffer but if you think the majority of the EU will be in a position to make life difficult for the UK, or ease the burden on the EU budget you are deluded.
		
Click to expand...


Perhaps they are hope Nicola S (and DfT) will ride to their rescue when she gets Scotland its independence and returns to the EU bearing gifts the like of which they have not seen with a ready supply of 'chips-on-shoulder'  !!!

The sad fact is that Brussels, and Barneir, (hoping for Junckers job) in particular are so intent on demonstrating to any other member the problem of leaving that they have completely ignored the economic impact on the member states.


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## IanM (Jun 20, 2019)

Mmmm New Brexit Party MEPs getting banned for filming the lobster lunches and Mercs coming their way....watch this space


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2019)

IanM said:



			Mmmm New Brexit Party MEPs getting banned for filming the lobster lunches and Mercs coming their way....watch this space
		
Click to expand...

link please?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2019)

Conservative and 'Unionist' Party in Scotland's  'Dark Money' guy listed as a tax cheat by HMRC.
Everyone in Scotland gobsmacked.


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news...chief-listed-by-hmrc-as-tax-cheat/?ref=twtrec


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## Mudball (Jun 30, 2019)

From Twitter...
Since the #Brexit vote, the EU has agreed trade deals with:
1. Canada
2. Japan
3. Brazil
4. Argentina
5. Paraguay
6. Uruguay
7. Vietnam


That = 500,000,000 people. 

Since the Brexit vote, Britain has agreed trade deals with:
1. The Faroe Islands

That = 50k people


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## Old Skier (Jun 30, 2019)

Mudball said:



			From Twitter...
Since the #Brexit vote, the EU has agreed trade deals with:
1. Canada
2. Japan
3. Brazil
4. Argentina
5. Paraguay
6. Uruguay
7. Vietnam


That = 500,000,000 people.

Since the Brexit vote, Britain has agreed trade deals with:
1. The Faroe Islands

That = 50k people
		
Click to expand...

Strange, BBC showing 11 with another in the pipeline.


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## Old Skier (Jun 30, 2019)

Some may even say it's better than 11 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47213842


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## Fade and Die (Jun 30, 2019)

Mudball said:



			From Twitter...
Since the #Brexit vote, the EU has agreed trade deals with:
1. Canada
2. Japan
3. Brazil
4. Argentina
5. Paraguay
6. Uruguay
7. Vietnam


That = 500,000,000 people.

Since the Brexit vote, Britain has agreed trade deals with:
1. The Faroe Islands

That = 50k people
		
Click to expand...


And the reason they wonâ€™t agree one with the UK?


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## Old Skier (Jun 30, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			And the reason they wonâ€™t agree one with the UK?
		
Click to expand...

He's quoted countries that are grouped together and if he reads the BBC link will notice that the same has happened in the U.K. negotiations.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			And the reason they wonâ€™t agree one with the UK?
		
Click to expand...

Is that a handful Tory MP's failed to endorse PM May's deal.

Is that the right answer.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is that a handful Tory MP's failed to endorse PM May's deal.

Is that the right answer.

Click to expand...

Have another guess.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 30, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			And the reason they wonâ€™t agree one with the UK?
		
Click to expand...

We can't agree any deal whilst still a member of the EU. It's a non argument.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 30, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Have another guess.
		
Click to expand...


Hereâ€™s a clue....

In 2016, Michel Barnier  said: â€œIâ€™ll have done my job, if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that theyâ€™d prefer to stay in the EU.â€


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## Fade and Die (Jun 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We can't agree any deal whilst still a member of the EU. It's a non argument.
		
Click to expand...


I was asking why the E.U. will not do a deal with us.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 30, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I was asking why the E.U. will not do a deal with us.
		
Click to expand...

They said they will not talk trade until the first phase has been agreed. TM agreed to that. I believe David Davies was very anti this decision as Brexit secretary. 

If we have left by Oct 31st then we can talk trade the day after leaving.  I suspect a lot has already been agreed behind the scenes, I would hope so anyway, so it should hopefully happen quite quickly.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 30, 2019)

O


Fade and Die said:



			Hereâ€™s a clue....

In 2016, Michel Barnier  said: â€œIâ€™ll have done my job, if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that theyâ€™d prefer to stay in the EU.â€
		
Click to expand...

Or Michel, the UK could leave with no deal agreed and it will be carnage for all parties. Great negotiation ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2019)

If we accept the Withdraw Agreement then it will leave us rolled over on our backs having committed to the Â£35 Billion, backstop, alignment on tarriffs, and they will want full access to fishing  in our waters, open immigration, euro court having presidence etc.  Stitched up with nothing to bargain with.  We need to walk away from the current deal and use the Â£39billion  and no deal as our bargaining chip.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2019)

This made me giggle a little 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1145307049347178496


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This made me giggle a little


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1145307049347178496

Click to expand...

ðŸ™„ Dosent take much then.


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## drdel (Jul 1, 2019)

I see our EU friends are having problems appointing new 'leaders' after two days no decision. I wonder how an integrated EU defence force would get decisions made.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see our EU friends are having problems appointing new 'leaders' after two days no decision. I wonder how an integrated EU defence force would get decisions made.
		
Click to expand...

I somehow think it will be quicker than the UK's three years an election and two PMs.


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## IanM (Jul 2, 2019)

The Brexit MEPs turned their backs while the EU Anthem was played.   

Why does a trading bloc need an anthem?




...or for that matter a Legal System, a Currency, a Flag and an Army!


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## spongebob59 (Jul 2, 2019)

And the lib dems :




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1145964956761956352

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1145973498453647360


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2019)

IanM said:



			The Brexit MEPs turned their backs while the EU Anthem was played.  

Why does a trading bloc need an anthem?




...or for that matter a Legal System, a Currency, a Flag and an Army! 

Click to expand...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...backs-on-eu-anthem/ar-AADJES1?ocid=spartandhp

What an absolute shower of zoomers.
I would love to see their reaction if say Pakistan did that to England at the cricket WC.


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## IanM (Jul 2, 2019)

Ah, but Doon, you've spent 3 years trying to tell us that Federalism is Farage lie... so how is that as offensive as a Sports Team disrespecting the anthem of a Sovereign State?

As ever, I leave you a question and you refuse to answer it.


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## Foxholer (Jul 2, 2019)

IanM said:



			...Why does a trading bloc need an anthem?
...or for that matter a Legal System, a Currency, a Flag and an Army! 

Click to expand...

Because it's not JUST a trading bloc!

And even a trading bloc needs Rules. And, because it is (much) more than just a trading bloc, i needs a Legal System!
A single currency within a trading bloc is very likely a good thing too!

As for whether it SHOULD be simply a trading bloc....Well the days for that debate are long gone! And the UK signed up for that expansion and also subsequent ones!

Btw. I don't believe it 'needs' an army, but a Flag is certainly fine - and I'm happy with the current one (adjusted after Brexit).


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## jp5 (Jul 2, 2019)

Pathetic and disrespectful from the Brexit Party MEPs. Wonder if they'll do the same when they come to collect their salaries? We're embarrassing ourselves now.


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## IanM (Jul 2, 2019)

OK.  I understand,  We now live in a Federal Europe.  

Excuse me being misled by the pages of discussion on here denying it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2019)

IanM said:



			Ah, but Doon, you've spent 3 years trying to tell us that Federalism is Farage lie... so how is that as offensive as a Sports Team disrespecting the anthem of a Sovereign State?

As ever, I leave you a question and you refuse to answer it.
		
Click to expand...

I have never said that about Farage ...â€¦.that might be a clue to why I occasionally choose to ignore your posts.


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## Mudball (Jul 2, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Pathetic and disrespectful from the Brexit Party MEPs. Wonder if they'll do the same when they come to collect their salaries? We're embarrassing ourselves now.
		
Click to expand...

what did they do.. i must have missed the news... too much debate about Bojos coronation rather than real news,.

Just googled it to see they turning their backs to the EU anthem..  This is really shameful.  If I watch Eng v Australia .. i would still be standing when the Aus anthem is playing..   This is basic courtesy and manners. They could have chosen not to attend the opening.   

I wonder what Farage says about Black Athletes taking the knee for the American star and stripes


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## Beezerk (Jul 2, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Pathetic and disrespectful from the Brexit Party MEPs. Wonder if they'll do the same when they come to collect their salaries? We're embarrassing ourselves now.
		
Click to expand...

No, they are embarrassing themselves not me or you.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...backs-on-eu-anthem/ar-AADJES1?ocid=spartandhp

What an absolute shower of zoomers.
I would love to see their reaction if say Pakistan did that to England at the cricket WC.
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest do you stand for GSTQ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Out of interest do you stand for GSTQ?
		
Click to expand...

No problem at all with GDSQ when it is used properly ie British/Royal only occasions.
I have strong feelings against it being used for English/Welsh/NI/Scots only occasions.
England sports teams using GSTQ show a huge level of arrogance IMO. They are representing England NOT Britain.
There have been a few occasions when GSTQ has been used incorrectly when I have not stood.
For an example, at the end of a film, but even Dad's Army did not do that. 
I would never be so crass as those Brexit zoomers and turn my back.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No problem at all with GDSQ when it is used properly ie British/Royal only occasions.
I have strong feelings against it being used for English/Welsh/NI/Scots only occasions.
England sports teams using GSTQ show a huge level of arrogance IMO. They are representing England NOT Britain.
There have been a few occasions when GSTQ has been used incorrectly when I have not stood.
For an example, at the end of a film, but even Dad's Army did not do that. 
I would never be so crass as those Brexit zoomers and turn my back.
		
Click to expand...

Who do you feel they are disrespecting?

For me it would be like standing for the company anthem... OK in some cultures, it's the norm, but not so here in the West I feel...


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## spongebob59 (Jul 2, 2019)

IanM said:



			OK.  I understand,  We now live in a Federal Europe. 

Excuse me being misled by the pages of discussion on here denying it.
		
Click to expand...

The hot tip to take over from Juncker as the next European Commission President is German Ursula von der Leyen who once said: â€œMy goal is the United States of Europe â€“ based on the model of the federal states of Switzerland, Germany or the US".


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Who do you feel they are disrespecting?...
		
Click to expand...

Non Zoomers


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## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The hot tip to take over from Juncker as the next European Commission President is German Ursula von der Leyen who once said: â€œMy goal is the United States of Europe â€“ based on the model of the federal states of Switzerland, Germany or the US".
		
Click to expand...

I hope she doesn't get it. At one time she demanded that German military spending be significantly increased, and won a 6.xx% increase. She then argued for a massive budget increase for equipment and armed forces personnel and won that too. 

She was one of several German politicians to demand collateral for financial support for Greece and was well and truly knocked back by Merkel.

Far too harsh a federalist and militarist for my liking.


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## IanM (Jul 2, 2019)

But the "presidents" (and there are several) have been talking "US of Europe" pretty openly for the past 2 years.  So Merkel 2.0 is nothing new.  

I'm still waiting for the "F" word to appear in official "Remain" literature.... it hasn't and it probably wont.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2019)

Yesterday a friend asked me if I had seen Years and Years, I said I really enjoyed it and he replied do you not think we are actually living in this period..... TOO TRUE

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...-davies-doctor-who-rory-kinnear-a8911686.html

Highly recommend it.
Emma Thompson as the Trump/Johnson politician is truly brilliant.

PS..........Joy from the Scots MP's https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/09/snp-mps-sing-ode-joy-brexit-bill-vote/


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## spongebob59 (Jul 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I hope she doesn't get it. At one time she demanded that German military spending be significantly increased, and won a 6.xx% increase. She then argued for a massive budget increase for equipment and armed forces personnel and won that too.

She was one of several German politicians to demand collateral for financial support for Greece and was well and truly knocked back by Merkel.

Far too harsh a federalist and militarist for my liking.
		
Click to expand...

Shes got the gig


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## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...backs-on-eu-anthem/ar-AADJES1?ocid=spartandhp

What an absolute shower of zoomers.
I would love to see their reaction if say Pakistan did that to England at the cricket WC.
		
Click to expand...

There's a big clue in their name ðŸ™„

Think of it more like tree huggers at the world caber tossing championships.  They really dont like it up em!  ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## larmen (Jul 2, 2019)

IanM said:



			The Brexit MEPs turned their backs while the EU Anthem was played.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s not a new idea. The original Natzi party has done it in the past, they just picking it up again.


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## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Pathetic and disrespectful from the Brexit Party MEPs. Wonder if they'll do the same when they come to collect their salaries? We're embarrassing ourselves now.
		
Click to expand...

Amazing isn't it that a week ago many people were criticising the Tory MP who stopped a women Greenpeace protester but shock of shocks, the Brexit party aren't allowed to demonstrate their displeasure....

Double standards? Hypocrisy?


----------



## MegaSteve (Jul 3, 2019)

Still failing to see who's been disrespected aside from those that voted leave... Still far from having what they democratically voted for delivered...


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## gmc40 (Jul 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Amazing isn't it that a week ago many people were criticising the Tory MP who stopped a women Greenpeace protester but shock of shocks, the Brexit party aren't allowed to demonstrate their displeasure....

Double standards? Hypocrisy?
		
Click to expand...

I donâ€™t think the fact she was â€œstoppedâ€ was the issue. 

But you already knew that...


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## IanM (Jul 3, 2019)

larmen said:



			Itâ€™s not a new idea. The original Natzi party has done it in the past, they just picking it up again.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I will bite.... 

Ah, anyone with the audacity to resist the Federalists eh?  Disgusting insult to the millions put on trains and gassed.  

Thought I point that out to you as you clearly are not aware of the difference, or the spelling!


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Amazing isn't it that a week ago many people were criticising the Tory MP who stopped a women Greenpeace protester but shock of shocks, the Brexit party aren't allowed to demonstrate their displeasure....

*Double standards? Hypocrisy?*

Click to expand...

Not really as the two incidents are completely different. I'm not really offended by what the Brexit MPs did, just think it's a bit sad and pathetic and doesn't overly portray us as a nation in a great way. But if they want to act that way then knock themselves out, probably says more about them than it does the EU.  But I'd hope I am allowed to think that and not be a hypocrite if I also thought the Tory MP was too heavy handed and did more than was needed to 'stop' the protester?

I could also accuse people of hypocrisy if they are fine with MEPs protesting in a childish manner but think it is OK for a MP to do what they he when Greenpeace were protesting.  But then again I know that is not a fair comparison and is simplifying the situations to make a cheap point, either so I won't bother.


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## jp5 (Jul 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Amazing isn't it that a week ago many people were criticising the Tory MP who stopped a women Greenpeace protester but shock of shocks, the Brexit party aren't allowed to demonstrate their displeasure....

Double standards? Hypocrisy?
		
Click to expand...

Eh?

Is it not possible to simultaneously believe that assault is wrong, and that our elected representatives turning their back on a group of youngsters playing a song is pathetic?

If they have that much of an issue with the EP they shouldn't bother taking their seats, and save European taxpayers their salaries / pensions.


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## Hobbit (Jul 3, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			I donâ€™t think the fact she was â€œstoppedâ€ was the issue.

But you already knew that...
		
Click to expand...




Hacker Khan said:



			Not really as the two incidents are completely different. I'm not really offended by what the Brexit MPs did, just think it's a bit sad and pathetic and doesn't overly portray us as a nation in a great way. But if they want to act that way then knock themselves out, probably says more about them than it does the EU.  But I'd hope I am allowed to think that and not be a hypocrite if I also thought the Tory MP was too heavy handed and did more than was needed to 'stop' the protester?

I could also accuse people of hypocrisy if they are fine with MEPs protesting in a childish manner but think it is OK for a MP to do what they he when Greenpeace were protesting.  But then again I know that is not a fair comparison and is simplifying the situations to make a cheap point, either so I won't bother. 

Click to expand...

To be honest, Iâ€™m not too fussed either way with the way the Green peace supporter was stopped. The fact she was smiling as he escorted her out, and the way she didnâ€™t seem overly concerned when she was interviewed immediately afterwards, says way more about all the inflated angst from some.

As for what the Brexit Party did; Iâ€™d have preferred it if theyâ€™d stood respectfully for the anthem, and saved their demo for when thereâ€™s business being conducted on the floor. Equally, Iâ€™m not keen on the LibDems t-shirt, but thatâ€™s more to do with having to explain to a 7 year old gâ€™daughter what it means.

Anyway, thereâ€™s way more important things that need sorting, like social care and needing a bigger cool box down at the pool.


----------



## Pro Zach (Jul 3, 2019)

larmen said:



			Itâ€™s not a new idea. The original Natzi party has done it in the past, they just picking it up again.
		
Click to expand...

I had no idea the original Natzi party (sic) were this despicable. Have you evidence for this? If itâ€™s true Iâ€™m definitely getting rid of my swastikas and I suggest everyone else does the same. All these years theyâ€™ve been portrayed as decent people and it turns out they were a bit rude. I canâ€™t believe it.

Apologies for the sarcasm but I feel it is the only response to any imbecile who tries to relate the Brexit party to the Nazis. It is obscene.

There are still a few survivors of the holocaust alive today. I suggest you ask one of them how the Brexit party compares to the Nazis.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 3, 2019)

The EU really are spoiling us now: from the hopeless defence minister who plagiarised her doctorate and the PM who's still in post 6 months after losing a No Confidence vote to the minister who was criminally negligent with â‚¬400m of taxpayers' money That's before you even get to Borrell who resigned his last EU post after not declaring a â‚¬300,000-a-year conflict of interest, was found guilty of a "very serious breach" of insider trading laws just last year, and likes to get highly aggressive with journalists and protesters


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The EU really are spoiling us now: from the hopeless defence minister who plagiarised her doctorate and the PM who's still in post 6 months after losing a No Confidence vote to the minister who was criminally negligent with â‚¬400m of taxpayers' money That's before you even get to Borrell who resigned his last EU post after not declaring a â‚¬300,000-a-year conflict of interest, was found guilty of a "very serious breach" of insider trading laws just last year, and likes to get highly aggressive with journalists and protesters
		
Click to expand...

Yet we still have Chris Grayling as a minister. Also if we're talking of conflicts of interest then type in the name of our next PM, you know, the person who has a 1000 times more influence over us than a potential EU foreign policy chief ever will, and 'conflict of interest' into Google and see what gives.  I know 2 wrongs don't make a right and said lead singer from Razorlight may well be not suitable for the position, but I'd be more concerned over ther lot in Westminster to be honest when it comes to having an real impact on us.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 3, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Eh?

Is it not possible to simultaneously believe that assault is wrong, and that our elected representatives turning their back on a group of youngsters playing a song is pathetic?

If they have that much of an issue with the EP they shouldn't bother taking their seats, and save European taxpayers their salaries / pensions.
		
Click to expand...

Whats your opinion of the Lib Dems wearing their B*****s to Brexit tee shirts while a group of youngsters play a song?


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## Foxholer (Jul 3, 2019)

I don't agree with either of their stances. But both were excellent examples of what 'peaceful protest' is all about!

And when that sort of protest gets banned, then it's the end of 'proper' democracy imo!

I'm much more in favour of that sort of protest than the invasion of (supposedly) private dinners as happened recently - though I actually support that cause also, just not its more sextreme methods!!


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## jp5 (Jul 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Whats your opinion of the Lib Dems wearing their B*****s to Brexit tee shirts while a group of youngsters play a song?
		
Click to expand...

Also inappropriate, not the attire expected for such a workplace!


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## MegaSteve (Jul 4, 2019)

I see the buffoons of Brussels have not been too welcoming of a few home truths...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 4, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I see the buffoons of Brussels have not been too welcoming of a few home truths...
		
Click to expand...

link please so that we know what you are referring to?


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## MegaSteve (Jul 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			link please so that we know what you are referring to?
		
Click to expand...

My IT proficiency (or lack of) unable to do links using a tablet...

Anne Widdecombes maiden speech... Don't necessarily agree with her vernacular but her point is spot on... Bureaucracy likes to say JUMP whilst the electorate asks How high?... Not in my world...

And, before you reply with the obvious I've not yet been given opportunity to kick Westminster into touch...


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## IanM (Jul 4, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Also inappropriate, not the attire expected for such a workplace!
		
Click to expand...


...balance duly noted.   (Serious reprimand issued, that has no place in this thread!)


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## jp5 (Jul 4, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I see the buffoons of Brussels have not been too welcoming of a few home truths...
		
Click to expand...

About comparing the EU to slavedom??


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## IanM (Jul 4, 2019)

jp5 said:



			About comparing the EU to slavedom??
		
Click to expand...

...for starters, you're not allowed to leave!


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## JamesR (Jul 4, 2019)

IanM said:



			...for starters, you're not allowed to leave!
		
Click to expand...

Or, one you canâ€™t leave the other weâ€™re not capable of leaving successfully


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## IanM (Jul 4, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Or, one you canâ€™t leave the other weâ€™re not capable of leaving successfully
		
Click to expand...

I've made my views pretty clear on Govt Strategy under May.....


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## MegaSteve (Jul 4, 2019)

jp5 said:



			About comparing the EU to slavedom??
		
Click to expand...

I have noted later the language is ott... But Brussels remains blind to its over indulgence of self importance... It truly does believe it's untouchable with its remoteness from the electorate... Is it a level of bureaucracy we need? For me, absolutely not!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2019)

The only sure way out of the EU now is to get Boris in, if he cant get us out on no-surender terms then to form an alliance with the Brexit party, call a General Election, get the Tory Remainers deselected and form a strong Brexit  coalition Government that will have the majority to get us out and put Corbyn into extinction.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The only sure way out of the EU now is to get Boris in, if he cant get us out on no-surender terms then to form an alliance with the Brexit party, call a General Election, get the Tory Remainers deselected and form a strong Brexit  coalition Government that will have the majority to get us out and put Corbyn into extinction.
		
Click to expand...

Latest polls suggest he is doing that by himself.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1146524127160872960


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The only sure way out of the EU now is to get Boris in, if he cant get us out on *no-surender* terms then to form an alliance with the Brexit party, call a General Election, get the Tory Remainers deselected and form a strong Brexit  coalition Government that will have the majority to get us out and put Corbyn into extinction.
		
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I think you should be aware of the very loaded meaning these two words together have in NI and parts of Scotland - especially Glasgow - and therefore maybe be a bit careful how and when you use them - unless you are fully aware and used this deliberately - as provocative as it is to some.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 5, 2019)

anyone who hasn't seen this week, worth a watch.
Hopefully will stick up a clip tomorrow.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 5, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1146915369770090502


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## jp5 (Jul 5, 2019)

IanM said:



			...for starters, you're not allowed to leave!
		
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Well you are, in fact our democratically elected prime minister negotiated a deal to leave. Then her party failed to ratify it. Hardly the EU's fault, that.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 5, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Well you are, in fact our democratically elected prime minister negotiated a deal to leave. Then her party failed to ratify it. Hardly the EU's fault, that.
		
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This is probably one of the few areas where the Tories aren't solely to blame. "Her party" didn't have enough MPs to ratify the deal so even if they had all voted for it they still needed help from other parties. So probably fairer to say that parliament failed to ratify the deal.


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## Old Skier (Jul 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think you should be aware of the very loaded meaning these two words together have in NI and parts of Scotland - especially Glasgow - and therefore maybe be a bit careful how and when you use them - unless you are fully aware and used this deliberately - as provocative as it is to some.
		
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Stop being silly. Very few will understand the context you use this in. Trolling at its worst.


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## jp5 (Jul 5, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			This is probably one of the few areas where the Tories aren't solely to blame. "Her party" didn't have enough MPs to ratify the deal so even if they had all voted for it they still needed help from other parties. So probably fairer to say that parliament failed to ratify the deal.
		
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Yes, should have said her party + the DUP.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 5, 2019)

This is the clip :

https://order-order.com/2019/07/05/andrew-neil-dismantles-new-eu-leaders/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Stop being silly. Very few will understand the context you use this in. Trolling at its worst.
		
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Silly? Trolling?  Well I might suggest all should understand the context - because if you understand anything about Northern Ireland you will understand what _No Surrender _means and the political sensitivities and bigotry associated with it.  However, if what you say is true - and I strongly suspect that to be the case - then that rather explains the casual insouciance and irritation many _Leave _voters express in respect of the NI/EU border issues and the 'Good Friday' Agreement.

Words matter so why were these specific words used in the post in the context they were (see also Widdecombe in her 'speech' yesterday - in the same 90secs of rant talking of slavery and oppression in the same breath as the EU and leaving - as thereby creating the association in the minds of those susceptible and inclined to look for it)

In both cases - one obviously far more important than the other - the words used were unnecessary to make the point.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Silly? trolling?  Well I might suggest all should understand the context - because if you understand anything about Northern Ireland you will understand what _No Surrender _means and the political sensitivities and bigotry associated with it.  However, if what you say is true - and I strongly suspect that to be the case - then that rather explains the casual insouciance and irritation many _Leave _voters express in respect of the NI/EU border issues and the 'Good Friday' Agreement.
		
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What a Snowflake response. You are looking to be offended.
You know damn well what I meant, leaving the EU without agreeing to a raft of conditions that tie us to them.  Get over yourself man.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 5, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Yes, should have said her party + the DUP.
		
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+ Labour. I don't think that the Lib Dems, Greens or SNP should be blamed for not ratifying it as they have been consistently for Remain but both Labour and Tories stood for election promising to respect the referendum result.

Having said that, the blame probably lies squarely with TM for negotiating such a bad deal and trying to get it through parliament.


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## jp5 (Jul 5, 2019)

Yep Labour have ballsed the whole thing up spectacularly, now showing in the polls.

We'd be out by now though if the Tories and their partners the DUP had fully backed the deal. So can't blame that one on Labour for opposing the government.


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## chrisd (Jul 5, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			This is the clip :

https://order-order.com/2019/07/05/andrew-neil-dismantles-new-eu-leaders/

Click to expand...

Thanks. Not seen it before


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Yep Labour have ballsed the whole thing up spectacularly, now showing in the polls.

We'd be out by now though if the Tories and their partners the DUP had fully backed the deal. So can't blame that one on Labour for opposing the government.
		
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Its not about Tory or Labour, its about parliamentarians respecting democracy or not.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Well you are, in fact our *democratically elected prime minister* negotiated a deal to leave. Then her party failed to ratify it. Hardly the EU's fault, that.
		
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Perhaps that was because after over a year of negotiations, the 'deal' that the EU was prepared to make was not really a deal worth making! It potentially tied the UK to the EU forever! And that was certainly why some of those that rejected it did so! Others, of course, simply acted as per their defined role of 'representatives of their electorate' rejected the deal because they believe Remain is the best option!

Btw. I was never specifically invited to vote or reject May as PM except as a consequence of another 'democratic' process! That  (voting for May as PM) would require a 'Presidential Election' not a 'General' one! And we know what sort of wealthy fool could win one of those! Mind you, if, as expected, Boris wins the Conservative Party member vote (another not particularly 'democratic' one), it's a pretty similar result!


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## drdel (Jul 5, 2019)

I note that even Juncker admits and regrets that the appointment of his replacement was not more transparent and democratic. He did face an election (of sorts) !!!


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## MegaSteve (Jul 5, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1146915369770090502

Click to expand...

I humbly suggest remoaners don't view the link...
As the truth might prove a tad too much to stomach...


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## drdel (Jul 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I humbly suggest remoaners don't view the link...
As the truth might prove a tad too much to stomach...
		
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An excellent example of how to say nothing of relevance. Brussels is simply out of touch or refusing to acknowledge that the member states have realised their MEPs and Heads of State have no power yet carry the can with their citizens.  Brussels formulates the planning, develops regulation, MEPs can agree but NOT disagree.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not about Tory or Labour, its about parliamentarians respecting democracy or not.
		
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The use of the word 'democracy' above is simply wrong!

Parliamentarians - and their right to vote however they deem appropriate - is how UK's version of democracy works! They may be 'not respecting the result of the referendum', but that's a completely different issue.


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I humbly suggest remoaners don't view the link...
As the truth might prove a tad too much to stomach...
		
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She was 'easy pickings' for Neil, merely used as a 'platform' to voice his own opinions! He may as well have interviewed me!


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## Foxholer (Jul 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			... Brussels is simply out of touch or refusing to acknowledge that the *member states have realised* their MEPs and Heads of State have no power yet carry the can with their citizens.  Brussels formulates the planning, develops regulation, MEPs can agree but NOT disagree.
		
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Have they? Do they care? Many (most?) are nett recipients of EU funds, so it's not in their interest to 'rock the boat'! Several have (ab?)used the system so, again, is it really in their interest to cause trouble?

But 1 member state has been convinced, in a campaign fraught with exaggeration and downright lies, to reject (apparent) European Federalism. But it appears those federalists are significantly better negotiators/politicians (even the 'failed' ones as described by Neil) than those elected ones in UK! 

That's why 'No Deal', with all the negative problems that will ensue, is the only the UK can get closure and move on - including/anticipating some tough trading and customs negotiations with EU. The only 'positive' of that is that trade BoP is 'in our favour' for that issue, mainly for 1 country (Germany) though! and Germany could well be 'consoled' by the possibility/likelihood of a massive boost to its Financial area!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Have they? Do they care? Many (most?) are nett recipients of EU funds, so it's not in their interest to 'rock the boat'! Several have (ab?)used the system so, again, is it really in their interest to cause trouble?

But 1 member state has been convinced, in a campaign fraught with exaggeration and downright lies, to reject (apparent) European Federalism. But it appears those federalists are significantly better negotiators/politicians (even the 'failed' ones as described by Neil) than those elected ones in UK!

That's why '*No Deal', with all the negative problems that will ensue, is the only the UK can get closure and move on* - including/anticipating some tough trading and customs negotiations with EU.* The only 'positive' of that is that trade BoP is 'in our favour' for that issue,* mainly for 1 country (Germany) though! and Germany could well be 'consoled' by the possibility/likelihood of a massive boost to its Financial area!
		
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There is another positive, in that whatever happens after a 'no deal' withdrawal _-_ hopefully under the Prime Ministership of BJ - such a withdrawal being clean and clear - we will know _exactly _who to thank...and I suggest that that won't include *any *who voted to remain - yer Remoaners.  A 'no deal' withdrawal on 31/10 will be exactly the same withdrawal as a 'no deal' withdrawal had that happened on 24th June 2016 - or indeed 29th March 2019 - and it seems to be what many believe they voted for (where was the word 'deal' on the voting paper? they ask).  The only difference being that on 31/10 the country, business, industry, finance and all services should be in a better position to manage the withdrawal than they would have been on any earlier date.  I look forward to it.


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## Dando (Jul 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There is another positive, in that whatever happens after a 'no deal' withdrawal _-_ hopefully under the Prime Ministership of BJ - we will know _exactly _who to thank...and that won't include *any *who voted to remain.  A 'no deal' withdrawal on 31/10 will be exactly the same withdrawal as a 'no deal' withdrawal had that happened on 24th June 2016 - or indeed 29th March 2019.   The only difference being that on 31/10 the country, business, industry, finance and all services should be in a better position to manage the withdrawal than they would have been on any earlier date.  I look forward to it.
		
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Change the bloody record


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## MegaSteve (Jul 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			She was 'easy pickings' for Neil, merely used as a 'platform' to voice his own opinions! He may as well have interviewed me!
		
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Of course she was teed up isn't that how most political commentary works?

Neil was spot on ðŸ‘


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## chrisd (Jul 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Of course she was teed up isn't that how most political commentary works?

Neil was spot on ðŸ‘
		
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 And if it wasnt true she would have argued so


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## Old Skier (Jul 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Silly? Trolling?  Well I might suggest all should understand the context - because if you understand anything about Northern Ireland you will understand what _No Surrender _means and the political sensitivities and bigotry associated with it.  However, if what you say is true - and I strongly suspect that to be the case - then that rather explains the casual insouciance and irritation many _Leave _voters express in respect of the NI/EU border issues and the 'Good Friday' Agreement.

Words matter so why were these specific words used in the post in the context they were (see also Widdecombe in her 'speech' yesterday - in the same 90secs of rant talking of slavery and oppression in the same breath as the EU and leaving - as thereby creating the association in the minds of those susceptible and inclined to look for it)

In both cases - one obviously far more important than the other - the words used were unnecessary to make the point.
		
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I fully understand everything about what is and has gone on in the past, far better than you, and it's people just like you that live in the past and continue to raise and highlight such stupid and ludicrous statements that keeps the issues alive.

I'm a leaver and I don't need you to educate me on any matters.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 5, 2019)

Just seen this clip too :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1147137537418436608


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			The use of the word 'democracy' above is simply wrong!

Parliamentarians - and their right to vote however they deem appropriate - is how UK's version of democracy works! They may be 'not respecting the result of the referendum', but that's a completely different issue.
		
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I disagree. Not respecting the referendum is anti democratic in my opinion. They had pledged to respect it and didn't.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 6, 2019)

https://www.politico.eu/article/ursula-von-der-leyen-biography-career-inconvenient-truth/


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree. Not respecting the referendum is anti democratic in my opinion. *They had pledged to respect it* and didn't*.*

Click to expand...

I'm not disagreeing with you, but can you please show me where they committed to do that?

Btw. It's STILL not 'undemocratic' - at least  not in UK's version of 'democracy'! As that's how (UK's version of) democracy works! But you are entitled to believe whatever you wish, however misguided/erroneous - something that is an absolute pillar of democracy (imo!).


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2019)

Dando said:



			Change the bloody record
		
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And it/s time you took you blinkers off!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not disagreeing with you, but can you please show me where they committed to do that?

Btw. It's STILL not 'undemocratic' - at least  not in UK's version of 'democracy'! As that's how (UK's version of) democracy works!
		
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They pledged in their manifestos.  Asking the voting public to make a democratic decision and saying it would be respected, then working against it is undemocratic.  Never mind playing around with the semantics we all know right from wrong and this is wrong.


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There is another positive, in that whatever happens after a 'no deal' withdrawal... The only difference being that on 31/10 the country, business, industry, finance and all services should be in a better position to manage the withdrawal than they would have been on any earlier date.  *I look forward to it.*

Click to expand...

Now there's a 'positive' response.

Shame all the Financial indicators are that it will, at least initially, be hugely negative! But at last it will be both decisive and will 'respect the referendum result'!


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## Foxholer (Jul 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			They pledged in their manifestos.  Asking the voting public to make a democratic decision and saying it would be respected, then working against it is undemocratic.  Never mind playing around with the semantics we all know right from wrong and this is wrong.
		
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Please quote the clause(s)! At least from the Conservatives. Labour's manifesto is now null and void as that only applied if they were elected to govern!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Please quote the clauses! At least from the Conservatives. Labour's manifesto is now null and void as that only applied if they were elected to govern!
		
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Take a look here at the Brexit commitments:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39960311

If you want to see Labours stance in their manifesto:
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Take a look here at the Brexit commitments:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39960311

Click to expand...

Nothing in there actually commits MPs to enact legislation, or simply vote, for something their consciences (well, opinions/beliefs, as 'MP' and 'conscience' are too often mutually exclusive!) tell them is not in the interest of the country! It's up to th PM, Cabinet and the Whips to 'manage' that essential aspect of UK Democracy!

That's why No Deal, hopefully with actual deals being negotiated shortly afterward, seems to me to be the most likely ourcome. It seems to me that that would also satisfy the EU Commission, as they are seen to have 'stood firm' and can let others sort out the mess! It also complies with Article 50 clauses.

The major sticking point I see is the commitment for 'Vote in both Houses of Parliament on "final agreement" for Brexit'. I can't see a No Deal vote (or any other for that matter) being successful. 

Though, of course, the Manifesto doesn't state that the result of such a vote has to be accepted - only that there will be one!!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Nothing in there actually commits MPs to enact legislation, or simply vote, for something their consciences (well, opinions/beliefs, as 'MP' and 'conscience' are too often mutually exclusive!) tell them is not in the interest of the country! It's up to th PM, Cabinet and the Whips to 'manage' that essential aspect of UK Democracy!

That's why No Deal, hopefully with actual deals being negotiated shortly afterward, seems to me to be the most likely ourcome. It seems to me that that would also satisfy the EU Commission, as they are seen to have 'stood firm' and can let others sort out the mess! It also complies with Article 50 clauses.

The major sticking point I see is the commitment for 'Vote in both Houses of Parliament on "final agreement" for Brexit'. I can't see a No Deal vote (or any other for that matter) being successful.

Though, of course, the Manifesto doesn't state that the result of such a vote has to be accepted - only that there will be one!!
		
Click to expand...

I commented previously they said they would respect the referendum outcome in their manifestos.   Are you suggesting they didnt?


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## Foxholer (Jul 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I commented previously they said they would respect the referendum outcome in their manifestos.   Are you suggesting they didnt?
		
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I'll repeat the question I asked you several posts ago.....Please quote the clause(s) in their manifesto where they (the Conservatives) comnmitted to do that!  You have, so far, failed to do so! You may have interpreted what they have stated as 'commitment', but that's simply YOUR interpretation! That's part of the askill of writing manifestos!


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## Kellfire (Jul 7, 2019)

Saw this on Facebook earlier. Very simple but so conclusive.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'll repeat the question I asked you several posts ago.....Please quote the clause(s) in their manifesto where they (the Conservatives) comnmitted to do that!  You have, so far, failed to do so! You may have interpreted what they have stated as 'commitment', but that's simply YOUR interpretation! That's part of the askill of writing manifestos!
		
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You're talking Twaddle now.
Here's their manifesto, look at the section on 'Leaving the European Union'  although you were quite capable of doing that anyway but prefer to play your silly games.

https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto


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## drdel (Jul 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'll repeat the question I asked you several posts ago.....Please quote the clause(s) in their manifesto where they (the Conservatives) comnmitted to do that!  You have, so far, failed to do so! You may have interpreted what they have stated as 'commitment', but that's simply YOUR interpretation! That's part of the askill of writing manifestos!
		
Click to expand...

Plenty of statements made in the House. Check Hansard.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Plenty of statements made in the House. Check Hansard.
		
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But NOT in the Manifesto - as claimed by SR!

And it's (only) the Manifesto (or The Queens Speech) that truly commits an elected party to a particular course of action! THAT's how (UK's version of) Democracy works!

Hansard only reflects statements made by individual Members, who may be influential in some cases perhaps others merely hopeful.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2019)

I read in my paper this morning a FT columnist opining that a No Deal Brexit would be far from a clean break - but that it would be a tripwire into economic chaos for years to come; then I read that the President of the NFU warns that a No Deal Brexit would be "absolutely disastrous" for agriculture.  And then Janet Daly tells us that that talk of No Deal Brexit is all absurd trash - that the major economic players in Europe will not be prepared to jump off a cliff.  

Since when was a No Deal Brexit equivalent to jumping off a cliff?  I thought we'd got rid of that Project Fear nonsense - but still with JD, the FT and the NFU we get Project Fear.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			But NOT in the Manifesto - as claimed by SR!

And it's (only) the Manifesto (or The Queens Speech) that truly commits an elected party to a particular course of action! THAT's how (UK's version of) Democracy works!

Hansard only reflects statements made by individual Members, who may be influential in some cases perhaps others merely hopeful.
		
Click to expand...

Just read the link to their manifesto and go to the section 'Leaving the Europiean Union' it starts by saying 'When we leave the Europiean Union ' I dont know what silly game your playing but if you won't read it then theres no point in further discussion.


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You're talking Twaddle now.
Here's their manifesto, look at the section on 'Leaving the European Union'  although you were quite capable of doing that anyway but prefer to play your silly games.

https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto

Click to expand...

Of course I had already done that! That's how I knew that your interpretation was merely that - an interpretation! There is no 'We will implement the referendum result' statement in that Manifesto!

That whole 'Leaving the European Union' section is merely the road map about how they, under May, planned to leave. And it was May's inability to implement that plan that prompted her to resign when she did!

Of course, Johnson HAS committed to implementing 'Leave', via No Deal if necessary! So if, as expected, he wins, then that's what he must do! And, to me, No Deal is the most likely outcome irrespective of any objection within Parliament, as, somewhat ironically, EU Law is 'superior' to UK Law so Article 50's default No Deal clause WILL apply. I don't believe there's either the time or the inclination (from EU Commission) for further negotiations to resolve the 'bad' parts of 'May's deal' before 31/10.


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## Hobbit (Jul 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Of course I had already done that! That's how I knew that your interpretation was merely that - an interpretation! There is no 'We will implement the referendum result' statement in that Manifesto!

That whole 'Leaving the European Union' section is merely the road map about how they, under May, planned to leave. And it was May's inability to implement that plan that prompted her to resign when she did!

Of course, Johnson HAS committed to implementing 'Leave', via No Deal if necessary! So if, as expected, he wins, then that's what he must do! And, to me, No Deal is the most likely outcome irrespective of any objection within Parliament, as, somewhat ironically, EU Law is 'superior' to UK Law so Article 50's default No Deal clause WILL apply. I don't believe there's either the time or the inclination (from EU Commission) for further negotiations to resolve the 'bad' parts of 'May's deal' before 31/10.
		
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Sorry Foxy, but I'm with SR on this one. Its in their manifesto and you're playing word games with it - and that's your interpretation... sound familiar. I do agree with what you think Johnson will do, or try to do, now he's committed to it.... or is he just buying member's votes so that he'll become PM?


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## Foxholer (Jul 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			...I do agree with what you think Johnson will do, or try to do, now he's committed to it.... *or is he just buying member's votes so that he'll become PM?*

Click to expand...

He's certainly ambitious, but I don't think he's that foolish! In fact I don't believe he's foolish at all, just not particularly quick thinking, so some/many of his 'off-the-cuff' replies come across as poor.

Not bidding to be PM when May took over was a smart move imo. That poisoned chalice was always going to bring May down while she pushed 'her deal' - which was not really a deal worth having at all! Boris can now use the 'Even with No Deal' (which will be chaotically bad, certainly initially, for UK for so many reasons) approach as a threat/fallback that will be accepted as a 'good' result rather than the calamity for so much of the UK economy that it really is! 

He'll then have an extended 'honeymoon' period where he can pass any other failings off as part of the 'adjustment after Brexit' process, irrespective of whether they are or not! It'll only be an internal revolution that will bring him down and I don't believe that will happen in this election cycle. Labour, led by Corbyn, is not capable of defeating the Conservatives, so there's another term to get things right! He's timed it well imo!

Of course, all the above depends on his winning the Tory membership vote!

Btw. No need to apologise for having a different view!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I read in my paper this morning a FT columnist opining that a No Deal Brexit would be far from a clean break - but that it would be a tripwire into economic chaos for years to come; then I read that the President of the NFU warns that a No Deal Brexit would be "absolutely disastrous" for agriculture.  And then Janet Daly tells us that that talk of No Deal Brexit is all absurd trash - that the major economic players in Europe will not be prepared to jump off a cliff. 

Since when was a No Deal Brexit equivalent to jumping off a cliff?  I thought we'd got rid of that Project Fear nonsense - but still with JD, the FT and the NFU we get Project Fear.
		
Click to expand...

Put a sock in it mate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Put a sock in it mate.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry?  What I have posted is exactly what I have read today.  What of it do you have an issue with...?  It would be more useful to have your take on these three comments rather than you just fling a silly personal dismissal.

In any case - and I shall repeat - if we are to be leaving, then I'm expecting and hoping that we leave on 31/10 without an agreement being reached with the EU and BJ as PM taking us out.  In that way we'll all know *exactly *who to thank.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry?  What I have posted is exactly what I have read today.  What of it do you have an issue with...?  It would be more useful to have your take on these three comments rather than you just fling a stupid personal dismissal.
		
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You are just regurgitating the same old anti Brexit dogma we have suffered for years.  On the lookout for any snippets you can gather to support your opinion.  You dont need to, we know what your opinion is, you have trumpeted it from the heights of Remainer Towers so often that it is just a pearcing white noise now.

No one is going to change their opinion by it so best to insert the old sock.


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## Old Skier (Jul 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry?  What I have posted is exactly what I have read today.  What of it do you have an issue with...?  It would be more useful to have your take on these three comments rather than you just fling a silly personal dismissal.

In any case - and I shall repeat - if we are to be leaving, then I'm expecting and hoping that we leave on 31/10 without an agreement being reached with the EU and BJ as PM taking us out.  In that way we'll all know *exactly *who to thank.
		
Click to expand...

Instead of just printing things you read, how about giving us an insight on the article. 

We can all just regurgitate items from the media.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Instead of just printing things you read, how about giving us an insight on the article.

We can all just regurgitate items from the media.
		
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I wondered when the rest of the pack would come running along having a go...LOL

I am simply quoting the opinions of those very close to their subject matter - and Janet Daly - or are their opinions not good enough for you - you'd rather have mine so that you could dismiss it as totally uninformed and naive.  Sorry - not good enough.  You can't have it both ways.   Indeed is the opinion of Janet Daly not good enough as it is she - arch-leaver that she is - who has been criticising talk of No Deal as absurd rubbish. 

But as you want my opinion - well I gave it - but I will repeat it.  If we leave *my opinion* is that it would be better for the UK were we to leave without an agreement - and led by BJ as PM.  In that way we will know who to thank for whatever transpires in the weeks, months and years that follow - and most importantly we keep Farage & Collaborators Ltd. away from any vestiges of real Westminster parliamentary power.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wondered when the rest of the pack would come running along having a go...LOL

I am simply quoting the opinions of those very close to their subject matter - and Janet Daly - or are their opinions not good enough for you - you'd rather have mine so that you could dismiss it as totally uninformed and naive.  Sorry - not good enough.  You can't have it both ways.   Indeed is the opinion of Janet Daly not good enough as it is she - arch-leaver that she is - who has been criticising talk of No Deal as absurd rubbish.

But as you want my opinion - well I gave it - but I will repeat it.  If we leave *my opinion* is that it would be better for the UK were we to leave without an agreement - and led by BJ as PM.  In that way we will know who to thank for whatever transpires in the weeks, months and years that follow - and most importantly we keep Farage & Collaborators Ltd. away from any vestiges of real Westminster parliamentary power.
		
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 ðŸ¤¯


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## drdel (Jul 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wondered when the rest of the pack would come running along having a go...LOL

I am simply quoting the opinions of those very close to their subject matter - and Janet Daly - or are their opinions not good enough for you - you'd rather have mine so that you could dismiss it as totally uninformed and naive.  Sorry - not good enough.  You can't have it both ways.   Indeed is the opinion of Janet Daly not good enough as it is she - arch-leaver that she is - who has been criticising talk of No Deal as absurd rubbish.

But as you want my opinion - well I gave it - but I will repeat it.  If we leave *my opinion* is that it would be better for the UK were we to leave without an agreement - and led by BJ as PM.  In that way we will know who to thank for whatever transpires in the weeks, months and years that follow - and most importantly we keep Farage & Collaborators Ltd. away from any vestiges of real Westminster parliamentary power.
		
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I have to confess that I'm struggling to read, understand and treat you recent posts with any seriousness. I struggle to find the point of argument/debate among what I assume to be sarcasm buried in overly emotive assertions.

For me, if you kept to simply making a straightforward statement of your interpretation of the current status  I'd hope we could move the debate/discussion along in a more respectful way.


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## Old Skier (Jul 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wondered when the rest of the pack would come running along having a go...LOL

I am simply quoting the opinions of those very close to their subject matter - and Janet Daly - or are their opinions not good enough for you - you'd rather have mine so that you could dismiss it as totally uninformed and naive.  Sorry - not good enough.  You can't have it both ways.   Indeed is the opinion of Janet Daly not good enough as it is she - arch-leaver that she is - who has been criticising talk of No Deal as absurd rubbish. 

But as you want my opinion - well I gave it - but I will repeat it.  If we leave *my opinion* is that it would be better for the UK were we to leave without an agreement - and led by BJ as PM.  In that way we will know who to thank for whatever transpires in the weeks, months and years that follow - and most importantly we keep Farage & Collaborators Ltd. away from any vestiges of real Westminster parliamentary power.
		
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What pack I rarely post on the subject these days due to the fact that nothing has changed or happened for a couple of months.

. Most of your "opinions" are based on what your mate down the pub said, the hairdresser,  things you read and what you hear on your rant radio.


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## chrisd (Jul 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But as you want my opinion - well I gave it - but I will repeat it.  If we leave *my opinion* is that it would be better for the UK were we to leave without an agreement - and led by BJ as PM.  In that way we will know who to thank for whatever transpires in the weeks, months and years that follow - and most importantly we keep Farage & Collaborators Ltd. away from any vestiges of real Westminster parliamentary power.
		
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So, let me get this right - you'd rather leave without a deal rather than with a good deal simply to put yourself in a position to point the finger at Boris?

You couldn't make it up!


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## Kellfire (Jul 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So, let me get this right - you'd rather leave without a deal rather than with a good deal simply to put yourself in a position to point the finger at Boris?

You couldn't make it up!
		
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When my emotions are really up when discussing Brexit, Iâ€™ll admit my rational side can go and I sometimes find myself thinking that I canâ€™t wait to say, â€œI told you soâ€ to those who want us to leave the EU. Iâ€™d be amazed if Iâ€™m not in a sizeable minority at times with that view - us humans are passionate beasts.


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## chrisd (Jul 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			When my emotions are really up when discussing Brexit, Iâ€™ll admit my rational side can go and I sometimes find myself thinking that I canâ€™t wait to say, â€œI told you soâ€ to those who want us to leave the EU. Iâ€™d be amazed if Iâ€™m not in a sizeable minority at times with that view - us humans are passionate beasts.
		
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I get that and there will be finger pointing, the answer coming back will always be "we couldn't have known when we voted" I voted in the original vote to go in but couldn't have known how bad it would turn out - I guess I'm to blame ðŸ˜


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So, let me get this right - you'd rather leave without a deal rather than with a good deal simply to put yourself in a position to point the finger at Boris?

You couldn't make it up!
		
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I'd rather we did not leave at all.  And if there is another referendum I will campaign and vote to Remain.

But if we have to leave then in so many ways it would be better that we leave without a deal (most likely anyway).  For many leave voters there is now no deal - not even a 'good' deal if such were possible - that will be good enough and that would not be portrayed as other than a sell out by such as Farage and the ERG - besides, the ballot paper said Leave/Remain - no mention of deal.  I fear that any deal - not even a new good one - will anger a large number of leave voters - an anger stoked by the usual suspects - and that representation in Westminster of Farage & Collaborators Ltd. will become inevitable.  And I absolutely do not want to see that.

A clear and unambiguous 'no agreement' exit means that the lead proponents of leaving can take the plaudits and thanks for the benefits, freedoms and control that will ensue - and will hopefully see the start of the demise of Farage and his crew.


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2019)

Whether you agree with it or not, if it was based on constituency votes, as an election is, everyone would have accepted the result without batting an eyelid. For all the twisting and turning by Remain those numbers are pretty damning.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Whether you agree with it or not, if it was based on constituency votes, as an election is, everyone would have accepted the result without batting an eyelid. For all the twisting and turning by Remain those numbers are pretty damning.







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Which is all well and good - but as we are told endlessly - it was the numbers that voted that mattered - and only a 2 in 100 change of vote or subsequent change of mind would have the numbers equal.  This was a referendum and nothing to do with constituencies or MPs.

I am going on holiday with a bunch of mates.  We have two choices on what to do as soon as we arrive at our hotel 1) we dive into the pool 2) head straight into the bar

We have a vote.  The vote is to dive into the pool.  We arrive at the hotel and the pool is empty.

Do we look at each other and say - well we had a democratic vote and that vote was to dive into to the pool - and so dive into it we must - we must enact our previous decision?  No - of course we don't.  We look at each other and say - well we didn't expect or know that - that changes things.  Maybe we don't dive in - maybe we just adjourn to the bar - and if the pool is filled later in the day or in the holiday then we may choose to dive in then.  but we do not dive into an empty pool now unless we want to do ourselves real damage.

It's quite simple.  The democratic vote was as it was back then.  If since then we have cared to listen, we might find that we know much, much more about the choice now, than we did then. A democracy allows a change of mind given a change of understanding or circumstances.  There is nothing about a democracy that mandates we must enact a decision before we can change our mind.

But I know that that is too obvious for many - and that for many Leave now we must regardless - and we see that with the increasing popularity of leaving with No Deal as that is clearly, to those many, the easiest way out - as we can just do that by ourselves if we let ourselves.  It's Easy.

And as leaving with No Deal is easy and that fits with the leaving is easy mindset of so many, it matters not what anyone might say or point out to the contrary.

It is exceedingly depressing. The country is severely divided - I doubt it can become even more so - anger at this mess is not the sole preserve of leave voters.  And so hell mend them. If it _has _to be, and if it's going to be so easy - bring it on.


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is all well and good - but as we are told endlessly - it was the numbers that voted that mattered - and only a 2 in 100 change of vote or subsequent change of mind would have the numbers equal.  This was a referendum and nothing to do with constituencies or MPs.

I am going on holiday with a bunch of mates.  We have two choices on what to do as soon as we arrive at our hotel 1) we dive into the pool 2) head straight into the bar

We have a vote.  The vote is to dive into the pool.  We arrive at the hotel and the pool is empty.

Do we look at each other and say - well we had a democratic vote and that vote was to dive into to the pool - and so dive into it we must - we must enact our previous decision?  No - of course we don't.  We look at each other and say - well we didn't expect or know that - that changes things.  Maybe we don't dive in - maybe we just adjourn to the bar - and if the pool is filled later in the day or in the holiday then we may choose to dive in then.  but we do not dive into an empty pool now unless we want to do ourselves real damage.

It's quite simple.  The democratic vote was as it was back then.  If since then we have cared to listen, we might find that we know much, much more about the choice now, than we did then. A democracy allows a change of mind given a change of understanding or circumstances.  There is nothing about a democracy that mandates we must enact a decision before we can change our mind.

But I know that that is too obvious for many - and that for many Leave now we must regardless - and we see that with the increasing popularity of leaving with No Deal as that is clearly, to those many, the easiest way out - as we can just do that by ourselves if we let ourselves.  It's Easy.

And as leaving with No Deal is easy and that fits with the leaving is easy mindset of so many, it matters not what anyone might say or point out to the contrary.

It is exceedingly depressing. The country is severely divided - I doubt it can become even more so - anger at this mess is not the sole preserve of leave voters.  And so hell mend them. If it _has _to be, and if it's going to be so easy - bring it on.
		
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Arguing the semantics is pointless Hugh, and the what if's even more so. Your analogy is far too simplistic. As much as I don't want to the UK Leave I feel that democracy won't be served until it does. Democracy is; create a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result. All this, after the fact hair splitting, however well intentioned, breaks the democratic loop of the 3 stages of democracy - I suppose after one year of a Tory govt we should have all campaigned for another GE...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Arguing the semantics is pointless Hugh, and the what if's even more so. Your analogy is far too simplistic. As much as I don't want to the UK Leave I feel that democracy won't be served until it does. Democracy is; create a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result. All this, after the fact hair splitting, however well intentioned, breaks the democratic loop of the 3 stages of democracy - I suppose after one year of a Tory govt we should have all campaigned for another GE...
		
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It's not simplistic to suggest an electorate can change it's mind.  It is frankly insane for anyone or any organisation to initiate something decided upon 3 yrs ago, that is now understood to have significant risk of short - but also long - term detrimental harm - with very uncertain positive outcomes or timescales for them to materialise.

Further - some democracies have a second chamber that can and does *stop *legislation from a lower chamber proceeding when they deem that legislation to be contrary to the long term good of the country.

But UK politics today is pretty insane - I could choose another word but that would just be ... semantics


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## Slime (Jul 9, 2019)

The problem with this thread is that both remainers and brexiters are inclined to look for, and then post, only the soundbites and press articles that support their particular sides' argument.
Brexiters and remainers seem to be getting increasingly entrenched in their own arguments and are prone to ignore counter arguments to their own disposition.
I'm also guilty of the same.
For those who are not sure which camp I'm in I think I'll post this interesting nugget which I stumbled across this morning and I'll leave you with a little ''Just Saying''.

https://britishjournal.net/new-brex...xSl9D-eg6Bf9_kCqekUMsZiwonJCnC9GdLWZBs2pXuFJY

Okay, it's from the British Journal, but I'm sure they haven't just made it up.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 9, 2019)

Slime said:



			The problem with this thread is that both remainers and brexiters are inclined to look for, and then post, only the soundbites and press articles that support their particular sides' argument.
Brexiters and remainers seem to be getting increasingly entrenched in their own arguments and are prone to ignore counter arguments to their own disposition.
I'm also guilty of the same.
For those who are not sure which camp I'm in I think I'll post this interesting nugget which I stumbled across this morning and I'll leave you with a little ''Just Saying''.

https://britishjournal.net/new-brex...xSl9D-eg6Bf9_kCqekUMsZiwonJCnC9GdLWZBs2pXuFJY

Okay, it's from the British Journal, but I'm sure they haven't just made it up.
		
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Genuine question, do you read that report and believe it to be likely true?  Not the fact that someone has published a report as that is obviously true, but do you believe all/any of the analysis that we are likely to be billions upon billions better off after a no deal?  A report written by Economists for Brexit?  I'm not questioning the fact that those economists may well believe some/all of what they have written.  But do reports written by people with an obvious vested interest in one conculsion being reached mean as much?  I'd like to think that if I saw a report by say a group called 'Economists for Greater European Unity' I'd kind of know what it is likely to say to begin with and would therefore mostly just dismiss it. I am just wondering how much filtering out of stuff goes on on both sides?


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## Kellfire (Jul 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Whether you agree with it or not, if it was based on constituency votes, as an election is, everyone would have accepted the result without batting an eyelid. For all the twisting and turning by Remain those numbers are pretty damning.







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Imagine that. The MPs who (believe it or not) know more about the ramifications than the general public knew we were better off staying in the EU. 

Iâ€™ve said it before - this is why we elect MPs. Theyâ€™re there to make decisions for us.


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## chrisd (Jul 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Imagine that. The MPs who (believe it or not) know more about the ramifications than the general public knew we were better off staying in the EU. 

Iâ€™ve said it before - this is why we elect MPs. Theyâ€™re there to make decisions for us.
		
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But the decision they made was to have a referendum so did they abrogate their decision making responsibilities or did they know best that we would make the right decision?


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## Fade and Die (Jul 9, 2019)

Iâ€™ll just leave this here for the deniers...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Imagine that. The MPs who (believe it or not) know more about the ramifications than the general public knew we were better off staying in the EU.

Iâ€™ve said it before - this is why we elect MPs. Theyâ€™re there to make decisions for us.
		
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They did make decisions for us.
They decided to let the voting public decide whether we stay or leave the EU.
They voted to enact (article 50) the process to make the UK leave the EU
They voted for the bill to revert all EU law into UK law.

If you do indeed believe MPs make decisions for us then surely you must accept they made the decisions that have led to us leaving the EU.


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## Foxholer (Jul 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But the decision they made was to have a referendum so did they abrogate their decision making responsibilities or did they know best that we would make the right decision?
		
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MPs didn't make the decision to have a referendum! The PM, at the time, made that decision! And when the public made the 'wrong' decision (in his opinion), he ran away from the job!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			MPs didn't make the decision to have a referendum! The PM, at the time, made that decision! And when the public made the 'wrong' decision (in his opinion), he ran away from the job!
		
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Yes they did, the PM only proposed it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Referendum_Act_2015


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## Slime (Jul 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Genuine question, do you read that report and believe it to be likely true?  Not the fact that someone has published a report as that is obviously true, but do you believe all/any of the analysis that we are likely to be billions upon billions better off after a no deal?  A report written by Economists for Brexit?  I'm not questioning the fact that those economists may well believe some/all of what they have written.  But do reports written by people with an obvious vested interest in one conculsion being reached mean as much?  I'd like to think that if I saw a report by say a group called 'Economists for Greater European Unity' I'd kind of know what it is likely to say to begin with and would therefore mostly just dismiss it. I am just wondering how much filtering out of stuff goes on on both sides?
		
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Genuine answer, I take everything I read and here with a large pinch of salt as I believe everything to have a degree  of bias.
I also believe people will tend to believe what suits their own personal Brexit beliefs/agenda/situation.
I'm now so cynical that I tend to disbelieve most things I read/here. I'm not even sure about Neil Armstrong anymore. 
Whatever the spin from the remainers and the brexiteers, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.


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## jp5 (Jul 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Whether you agree with it or not, if it was based on constituency votes, as an election is, everyone would have accepted the result without batting an eyelid. For all the twisting and turning by Remain those numbers are pretty damning.
		
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I think you've just highlighted how poor our electoral system is for MPs.


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I think you've just highlighted how poor our electoral system is for MPs.
		
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The graphic made plenty of spin out of what was a binary choice. A or B, and B was chosen. All the rest is mainly waffle spun to reinforce the result.

I agree that the current system leaves so many of the electorate unrepresented in a GE but playing Devil's Advocate, why should the losers in a GE have their manifestos acted upon?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Genuine question, do you read that report and believe it to be likely true?  Not the fact that someone has published a report as that is obviously true, but do you believe all/any of the analysis that we are likely to be billions upon billions better off after a no deal?  A report written by Economists for Brexit?  I'm not questioning the fact that those economists may well believe some/all of what they have written.  But do reports written by people with an obvious vested interest in one conculsion being reached mean as much?  I'd like to think that if I saw a report by say a group called 'Economists for Greater European Unity' I'd kind of know what it is likely to say to begin with and would therefore mostly just dismiss it. I am just wondering how much filtering out of stuff goes on on both sides?
		
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Maybe this should be looked at differently.  "I beg your pardon,  I never promised you a rose garden" I believe most people voting Brexit took the view that leaving meant more to them than any potential economic downturn which may or maynot happen. Due to project fear they dismissed suggestions of catastrophic downturns in the economy and were prepared to accept the outcomes.

I know you will not accept this and will probably be in favour of a second referendum as we didnt understand what we voted for and know so much more now,  although I struggle to understand what.

I feel in every nerve and sinew that those trying to stop Brexit know in their hearts they are thwarting democracy and putting personal preference before moral fibre. Why not be honest and say 'Bollocks to democracy, I know better "


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## Kellfire (Jul 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe this should be looked at differently.  "I beg your pardon,  I never promised you a rose garden" I believe most people voting Brexit took the view that leaving meant more to them than any potential economic downturn which may or maynot happen. Due to projecy fear they dismissed suggestions of catastrophic downturns in the economy and were prepared to accept the outcomes.

I know you will not accept this and will probably be in favour of a second referendum as we didnt understand what we voted for and know so much more now.

I feel in every nerve and sinew that those trying to stop Brexit know in their hearts they are thwarting democracy and putting personal preference before moral fibre. Wjy not be honest and say 'Bollocks to democracy, I know better "
		
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Your nerves and sinews are entirely wrong. Sorry that your gut instinct doesnâ€™t stand up to scrutiny.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Your nerves and sinews are entirely wrong. Sorry that your gut instinct doesnâ€™t stand up to scrutiny.
		
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Maybe you can substantiate that comment and show where you have scrutinised anything. Or is it just a kneejerk reaction with no substance.  Certainly sounds like it.


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## Kellfire (Jul 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you can substantiate that comment and show where you have scrutinised anything. Or is it just a kneejerk reaction with no substance.  Certainly sounds like it.
		
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You continually and erroneously claim that democracy must include surging ahead with any decision once it is made. We all know that is not true. You wonâ€™t admit it because youâ€™re guilty of what you accuse others of; youâ€™re the internet equivalent of a child banging on a desk and screaming â€œNOT LISTENING NOT LISTENINGâ€.


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## Mudball (Jul 9, 2019)

Just asking.... has this thread run its course or has it just got boring and repetitive 
just saying.. Maybe we put this thread on hold till Oct - where it can be restarted in time for the next Armageddon

.. adding the mandatory   to ensure i dont offend anyone and I have an excuse if pulled up


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Just asking.... has this thread run its course or has it just got boring and repetitive
just saying.. Maybe we put this thread on hold till Oct - where it can be restarted in time for the next Armageddon

.. adding the mandatory   to ensure i dont offend anyone and I have an excuse if pulled up
		
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I'm hurt! I can't believe that after all we've been through, all the highs and lows, you want to put our relationship on ice. How could you be so cold and unfeeling?!?


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## Mudball (Jul 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm hurt! I can't believe that after all we've been through, all the highs and lows, you want to put our relationship on ice. How could you be so cold and unfeeling?!?



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Let me give you a hug.. ...   This is how Europe is feeling about Brexit..


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			You continually and erroneously claim that democracy must include surging ahead with any decision once it is made. We all know that is not true. You wonâ€™t admit it because youâ€™re guilty of what you accuse others of; youâ€™re the internet equivalent of a child banging on a desk and screaming â€œNOT LISTENING NOT LISTENINGâ€.
		
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You certainly have attitude problems.  You are incapable of a debate without quickly resulting to insults and name calling.  You Sir are the child that needs to grow up.


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes they did, the PM only proposed it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Referendum_Act_2015

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Oh dear! And you criticise me of playing with words! 

Cameron *promised* it in 2013 and it was *part of the 2015 Conservative Manifesto*.

That *decision *was *approved *in the usual parliamentary way (through both Houses.).


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Oh dear! And you criticise me of playing with words! 

Cameron *promised* it in 2013 and it was *part of the 2015 Conservative Manifesto*.

That *decision *was *approved *in the usual parliamentary way (through both Houses.).
		
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So you agree it was in their manifesto.
I also gave you a copy of the 2017 manifesto where they committed to leaving.   
Playing with wordsðŸ˜…   You certainly are the master of that game.


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...
I feel in every nerve and sinew that those trying to stop Brexit know in their hearts they are *thwarting democracy* and putting personal preference before moral fibre. Why not be honest and say '*Bollocks to democracy*, I know better "
		
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While I am totally against the concept of having another Referendum (at least to re-run the 2016 one), there is nothing about what they are doing that is 'thwarting' or 'saying 'Bollocks to' democracy! By all means criticise them for being poor losers etc - or even, perhaps, 'abusing democracy'. But what they are doing is actually a fundamental part of 'democracy'!


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So you agree it was in their manifesto.
I also gave you a copy of the 2017 manifesto where they committed to leaving.  
Playing with wordsðŸ˜…   You certainly are the master of that game.
		
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Oh dear..There you go playing with (actually dropping important) words again! Kindly desist! There's never been any question about that - now defunct - 2015 manifesto!

*Holding* the referendum was certainly in the *2015* Referendum - Cameron's last one. He had nothing to do with the 2017 one!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Oh dear..There you go playing with (actually dropping important) words again! Kindly desist! There's never been any question about that - now defunct - 2015 manifesto!

*Holding* the referendum was certainly in the *2015* Referendum - Cameron's last one. He had nothing to do with the 2017 one!
		
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I said both the conservatives and Labour had stated in their manifestos they would respect the outcome of the referendum.  You challenged that and I have shown quite clearly they made those commitments.  You are now squirming  and trying to use semantics to wriggle out of your (incorrect) comments.  Why not just own up to being wrong.


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## Foxholer (Jul 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I said both the conservatives and Labour had stated in their manifestos they would respect the outcome of the referendum.  You challenged that and I have shown quite clearly they made those commitments.  You are now squirming  and trying to use semantics to wriggle out of your (incorrect) comments.  Why not just own up to being wrong.
		
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Why are you harping back to a different issue. On that topic, we are simply of differing opinions! Stop acting like a spoilt child - or any of the descriptions you so readily apply to others who dare to disagree with you - and get over it!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You certainly have attitude problems.  You are incapable of a debate without quickly resulting to insults and name calling.  You Sir are the child that needs to grow up.
		
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Maybe he needs to put a sock in it  LOL


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Why are you harping back to a different issue. On that topic, we are simply of differing opinions! Stop acting like a spoilt child - or any of the descriptions you so readily apply to others who dare to disagree with you - and get over it!
		
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I take it from your answer you cannot own up to being wrong so now after trying to wriggle out using semantics you have turned to juvenile name calling.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe he needs to put a sock in it  LOL
		
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Maybe.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While I am totally against the concept of having another Referendum (at least to re-run the 2016 one), there is nothing about what they are doing that is 'thwarting' or 'saying 'Bollocks to' democracy! By all means criticise them for being poor losers etc - or even, perhaps, 'abusing democracy'. *But what they are doing is actually a fundamental part of 'democracy'!*

Click to expand...

As I previously posted 5000 pages ago...for democracy to work the losing side must accept the result. Has that happened?


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## Foxholer (Jul 11, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			As I previously posted 5000 pages ago...for democracy to work the losing side must accept the result. Has that happened?
		
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Let me put it to you slightly simply.....
Are they doing anything illegal? No! Then, under UK's version of 'democracy', they are simply using 'democratic privileges!

So No, it's not essential, in UK's version of democracy, that a 'losing side' needs to accept the result. There are, however, ways to force that result to apply - in spite of their lack of acceptance!

What should happen, imo, is that the 'authorities simply' ignore/reject their claims/requests/pleas - which is another legitimate feature of UK Democracy!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Let me put it to you slightly simply.....
Are they doing anything illegal? No! Then, under UK's version of 'democracy', they are simply using 'democratic privileges!

So No, it's not essential, in UK's version of democracy, that a 'losing side' needs to accept the result. There are, however, ways to force that result to apply - in spite of their lack of acceptance!

What should happen, imo, is that the 'authorities simply' ignore/reject their claims/requests/pleas - which is another legitimate feature of UK Democracy!
		
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Twaddle !!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2019)

Well even if we are at the head of the queue of those looking for free trade deals with the US - things don't seem to be going that smoothly - with UK reluctance to bend the knee to US requests causing problems...from the Daily Telegraph two days ago

_The documents seen by this newspaper reveal how negotiations with the US are forcing ministers and officials to confront the difficult choices of life outside the EU. _

https://premium.telegraph.co.uk/new...di_Edi_New_Reg20190711&utm_campaign=DM1049294

But never mind.  All will be OK when we have Mr Johnson as our new PM and a new Pro-Trump, Pro-Brexit Ambassador in place.  The difficult choices will I assume become easy.

Or maybe they won't.

On reading this, and given the paucity of positive news in respect of new trade agreements coming from Dr Liam Fox, *my opinion* is that we were oversold the ease by which UK would be able to stand up new trade agreements ready for signing as soon as UK had left the EU, and that Project Fear was pretty darned right in predicting that it was never going too be that easy, and that when it came to the US - well - *America First *would hold sway.

And what did the Director General of the WTO say 4 days ago in respect of BJs plans for tariff free trade under WTO Gatt Article 24?  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-gatt-24-article-eu-trade-leave-a8996001.html 

Well - as I read it you've got to have a deal agreed up front before UK and EU jointly request continuance of tariff free trade between UK and the EU under that Article.  And in my opinion that is not what we have been told endlessly by such as Rees-Mogg (he's gone a bit quiet these days); Digby Jones; Dave Davies; Marc Francois and the rest of the ERG

But let's see.


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## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Cant you see that if you accuse someone of talking 'Twaddle' you are insulting their intelligence, you are suggesting the person is stating an unrealistic view and as such is stupid.    Someone could respond to your post saying you are talking 'Bollocks' would that be an insult or only your post was being insulted.  That's a fine line you are drawing and I would err on the side you are insulting the poster.    Again, try and be less confrontational in your rejection of the post.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle!!!!
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle!!!
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle !!!
		
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Oh the hypocrisy! 

I'd kindly suggest you take your own advice!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Oh the hypocrisy! 

I'd kindly suggest you take your own advice!
		
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Twaddle!!!


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## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle!!!
		
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How pathetically juvenile - but predictable!

Kindly desist!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			How pathetically juvenile - but predictable!

Kindly desist!
		
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Irritating isnt it. Maybe you can stop using it yourself old boy â˜º


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## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Irritating isnt it. Maybe you can stop using it yourself old boy â˜º
		
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I'll (contnue to) use it when it's appropriate.

Your use of it appears to be juvenile trolling - breaking Forum Rules!


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## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well even if we are at the head of the queue of those looking for free trade deals with the US - things don't seem to be going that smoothly - with UK reluctance to bend the knee to US requests causing problems...from the Daily Telegraph two days ago

_The documents seen by this newspaper reveal how negotiations with the US are forcing ministers and officials to confront the difficult choices of life outside the EU. _

https://premium.telegraph.co.uk/new...di_Edi_New_Reg20190711&utm_campaign=DM1049294

But never mind.  All will be OK when we have Mr Johnson as our new PM and a new Pro-Trump, Pro-Brexit Ambassador in place.  The difficult choices will I assume become easy.

Or maybe they won't.

On reading this, and given the paucity of positive news in respect of new trade agreements coming from Dr Liam Fox, *my opinion* is that we were oversold the ease by which UK would be able to stand up new trade agreements ready for signing as soon as UK had left the EU, and that Project Fear was pretty darned right in predicting that it was never going too be that easy, and that when it came to the US - well - *America First *would hold sway.

And what did the Director General of the WTO say 4 days ago in respect of BJs plans for tariff free trade under WTO Gatt Article 24?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-gatt-24-article-eu-trade-leave-a8996001.html

Well - as I read it you've got to have a deal agreed up front before UK and EU jointly request continuance of tariff free trade between UK and the EU under that Article.  And in my opinion that is not what we have been told endlessly by such as Rees-Mogg (he's gone a bit quiet these days); Digby Jones; Dave Davies; Marc Francois and the rest of the ERG

But let's see.
		
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?
You need to read up on Gatt 24. There is lots room in it for a wide range of options. Other than that, your post is grit at the bottom of a bird cage.... did I misspell grit? Your current style of posting is poor. It is as confrontational as your previous style and adds very little to a constructive debate. ....kin grow a set and argue your point. Brexit is going to cause huge problems IF the EU really dig their heels in. The pound will undoubtably tank in the early days, around the insecurity of how trading will continue. In other words argue constructively or go and play with your toys.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'll (contnue to) use it when it's appropriate.

Your use of it appears to be juvenile trolling - breaking Forum Rules!
		
Click to expand...

 ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Fade and Die (Jul 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle !!!
		
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I was ruminating on a reply along the lines of losers consent, and the difference between sore losers and graceful losers and pointing out to the King nitpicker that what he has awkwardly explained as â€œdemocracyâ€ has never happened before in the history of British politics but your answer was betterðŸ‘


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## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I was ruminating on a reply along the lines of losers consent, and the difference between sore losers and graceful losers and pointing out to the King nitpicker that what he has awkwardly explained as *â€œdemocracyâ€ has never happened before in the history of British politics* but your answer was betterðŸ‘
		
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Er...Twaddle!

It has ALWAYS been that way - at least in UK's version of democracy! The way in which the Referendum was 'forced' upon Cameron is a perfect example!


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## Fade and Die (Jul 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Twaddle!

*It has ALWAYS been that way* - at least in UK's version of democracy! The way in which the Referendum was 'forced' upon Cameron is a perfect example!
		
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So democratic votes have routinely been ignored by the losing side and the results not enacted eh? I must have missed that...
Tell me in a previous life did you used to write the clues on the quiz-show 3-2-1?


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## Kellfire (Jul 12, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So democratic votes have routinely been ignored by the losing side and the results not enacted eh? I must have missed that...
Tell me in a previous life did you used to write the clues on the quiz-show 3-2-1?
		
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Itâ€™s more like the quiz show Who Wants To Be A Millionaire? when the contest rigged it with falsehoods. Guess what happened to him...


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## Fade and Die (Jul 12, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Itâ€™s more like the quiz show Who Wants To Be A Millionaire? when the contest rigged it with falsehoods. Guess what happened to him...
		
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Cough cough... no ideaðŸ˜


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## Kellfire (Jul 12, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Cough cough... no ideaðŸ˜
		
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Whoa. We just disagreed politically and made a joke about it. Is this a new dawn?! ðŸ˜


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Whoa. We just disagreed politically and made a joke about it. Is this a new dawn?! ðŸ˜
		
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Cough cough,  no idea!


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## Foxholer (Jul 13, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So democratic votes have routinely been ignored by the losing side and the results not enacted eh? I must have missed that...
Tell me in a previous life did you used to write the clues on the quiz-show 3-2-1?
		
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'Democracy' isn't just about referendums! But Yes, *the potential has always been there* for losers to 'pressurise' for another!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			?
You need to read up on Gatt 24. There is lots room in it for a wide range of options. Other than that, your post is grit at the bottom of a bird cage.... did I misspell grit? Your current style of posting is poor. It is as confrontational as your previous style and adds very little to a constructive debate. ....kin grow a set and argue your point. Brexit is going to cause huge problems IF the EU really dig their heels in. The pound will undoubtedly tank in the early days, around the insecurity of how trading will continue. In other words argue constructively or go and play with your toys.
		
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I see no point in trying very hard, as pretty much everything and anything that is posted that does not point to post-Brexit_ No Deal_ sunny uplands is ignored or dismissed.  Of course I hope that things are not as bad as they might be following a _No Deal_ Brexit - and - contrary to what many Leave voters love to think and say about the rest of us - most Remain voters - myself included - do not believe it will be Armageddon - the end of the world.  Of course it won't. But it  might not be a bundle of laughs - and I still just don't get what we will get as compensation...

And the truth of it is that - unless I am really missing a lot - I am not hearing very much evidence these days coming from the government or lead Leavers that is hugely positive about how things are going to be so much *better *once we leave - well at least not for quite some undetermined length of time (50yrs if you believed Rees-Mogg).  But hey ho.  Out we go.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 16, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151053339066425344


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2019)

And so both of our candidates for PM say that unless the backstop is *removed completely *from a deal then there is no deal - and so no need for any further extension as suggested by von de Leyen.  Strikes me that in stating this both have effectively set a condition on a deal that they pretty much 100% know that the EU will not / cannot agree to - but that notwithstanding they can probably then claim that a No Deal situation and departure was due to EU intransigence.  Ah well.  No Deal here we come.


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so both of our candidates for PM say that unless the backstop is *removed completely *from a deal then there is no deal - and so no need for any further extension as suggested by von de Leyen.  Strikes me that in stating this both have effectively set a condition on a deal that they pretty much 100% know that the EU will not / cannot agree to - but that notwithstanding they can probably then claim that a No Deal situation and departure was due to EU intransigence.  Ah well.  No Deal here we come.
		
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And..........

You could say the EU have set the (backstop) condition. Who is forcing who with what might be seen as an unacceptable condition?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so both of our candidates for PM say that unless the backstop is *removed completely *from a deal then there is no deal - and so no need for any further extension as suggested by von de Leyen.  Strikes me that in stating this both have effectively set a condition on a deal that they pretty much 100% know that the EU will not / cannot agree to - but that notwithstanding they can probably then claim that a No Deal situation and departure was due to EU intransigence.  Ah well.  No Deal here we come.
		
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All the EU have to say is "We wish to open a two year discussion with the UK after they leave the EU on a free trade  agreement and the movement of people and goods in Ireland. Any free trade agreement will be conditional on the UK paying their outstanding monies to cover their outstanding and ongoing responsibilities. During this negotiating period the UK will remain members of the customs union"

Job done, everyone could sign up to this, other than those that have an agenda of keeping the UK in the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And..........

You could say the EU have set the (backstop) condition. Who is forcing who with what might be seen as an unacceptable condition?
		
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But it is surely only a consequence of the UK leaving and May's Red Lines.  It would only be unacceptable were there is no foreseeable solution to the border control and management issue - and we are continually being told by 'lead' Leavers, and other experts aplenty, that solutions actually exist *now *that are a combination of the technical and procedural - all that is required is a plan to scale these up and roll them out.  Therefore even if the backstop has to be initiated it will have an absolutely defined and known end date as soon as that plan is shared with the EU - given the EU are not allowed to unreasonably withhold acceptance of a workable solution.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But it is surely only a consequence of the UK leaving and May's Red Lines.  It would only be unacceptable were there is no foreseeable solution to the border control and management issue - and we are continually being told by 'lead' Leavers, and other experts aplenty, that solutions actually exist *now *that are a combination of the technical and procedural - all that is required is a plan to scale these up and roll them out.  Therefore even if the backstop has to be initiated it will have an absolutely defined and known end date as soon as that plan is shared with the EU - given the EU are not allowed to unreasonably withhold acceptance of a workable solution.
		
Click to expand...


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## Hobbit (Jul 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But it is surely only a consequence of the UK leaving and May's Red Lines.  It would only be unacceptable were there is no foreseeable solution to the border control and management issue - and we are continually being told by 'lead' Leavers, and other experts aplenty, that solutions actually exist *now *that are a combination of the technical and procedural - all that is required is a plan to scale these up and roll them out.  Therefore even if the backstop has to be initiated it will have an absolutely defined and known end date as soon as that plan is shared with the EU - given the EU are not allowed to unreasonably withhold acceptance of a workable solution.
		
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First of all "red lines." When are you ever, ever, ever going to admit that the EU has also set "red lines?" There's 2 sides to the intransigence but you only ever, ever, ever see one side.

Secondly, the EU produced, note EU produced, the AVCO(sp) report in December 2018 in which it said the EU already has the technology available for a seamless border, its conclusion being that it is the EU that is "unreasonably withholding acceptance of a workable solution." An EU report being scathing about the EU's lack of willingness to move on this issue, citing the dangers to jobs and the economy in the EU. The EU has its own project up and running NOW to have seamless borders throughout the EU by 2024. The Beeb did 2 very good pieces on the technology already being used in the EU. One was the border between the EU and Russia, and the other was a very comprehensive piece listing a number of borders, the main example being the comprehensive controls in place at the Norwegian border.

There is no need for the controversial backstop clause, especially as the implementation period would have run through to when the EU has set a target date of EU wide seamless borders. Without the backstop May's BRINO deal would, probably, have gone through. A deal that heavily favoured the EU. Now, No Deal and the threat to withhold the Â£39bn is back on the table. So why is the EU insisting on the backstop? Not even you are that naive you can't see that the EU is continually fudging in the hope that Brexit won't happen - too blinkered maybe but not too naive.

We now have a new EU President offering an extension. Bearing in mind that a new EU budget starts next year, there's a potential for another extension seeing the UK's financial commitment extending well beyond Â£39bn, and through to the end of 2025.


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## Dando (Jul 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			First of all "red lines." When are you ever, ever, ever going to admit that the EU has also set "red lines?" There's 2 sides to the intransigence but you only ever, ever, ever see one side.

Secondly, the EU produced, note EU produced, the AVCO(sp) report in December 2018 in which it said the EU already has the technology available for a seamless border, its conclusion being that it is the EU that is "unreasonably withholding acceptance of a workable solution." An EU report being scathing about the EU's lack of willingness to move on this issue, citing the dangers to jobs and the economy in the EU. The EU has its own project up and running NOW to have seamless borders throughout the EU by 2024. The Beeb did 2 very good pieces on the technology already being used in the EU. One was the border between the EU and Russia, and the other was a very comprehensive piece listing a number of borders, the main example being the comprehensive controls in place at the Norwegian border.

There is no need for the controversial backstop clause, especially as the implementation period would have run through to when the EU has set a target date of EU wide seamless borders. Without the backstop May's BRINO deal would, probably, have gone through. A deal that heavily favoured the EU. Now, No Deal and the threat to withhold the Â£39bn is back on the table. So why is the EU insisting on the backstop? Not even you are that naive you can't see that the EU is continually fudging in the hope that Brexit won't happen - too blinkered maybe but not too naive.

We now have a new EU President offering an extension. Bearing in mind that a new EU budget starts next year, there's a potential for another extension seeing the UK's financial commitment extending well beyond Â£39bn, and through to the end of 2025.
		
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Heâ€™ll never admit the EU are at fault.


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## chrisd (Jul 17, 2019)

As usual Hobbit - are you going to continually let facts get in the way of SILH's Brexit rants. This reasoned argument ploy of yours really must stop !


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 17, 2019)

Just beautiful


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151239816153096193


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## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just beautiful


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151239816153096193

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Very enlightening ðŸ™„


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



View attachment 27761

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Nice selfie!


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But it is surely only a consequence of the UK leaving and May's Red Lines.  It would only be unacceptable were there is no foreseeable solution to the border control and management issue - and we are continually being told by 'lead' Leavers, and other experts aplenty, that solutions actually exist *now *that are a combination of the technical and procedural - all that is required is a plan to scale these up and roll them out.  Therefore even if the backstop has to be initiated it will have an absolutely defined and known end date as soon as that plan is shared with the EU - given the EU are not allowed to unreasonably withhold acceptance of a workable solution.
		
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IMO, it was May's inability to secure an end-date to the 'backstop' that scuppered her 'deal'! Whether it was ever likely that she, and the negotiating team, were ever going to be able to do so is now moot - but as Hobbit mentioned, there are plans tat should have allowed for some sort of timing/event to have been used.

And, of course, there STILL has to be a 'seamless' border created, at least between North and South, to ensure that the Good Friday Agreement isn't breached!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			IMO, it was May's inability to secure an end-date to the 'backstop' that scuppered her 'deal'! Whether it was ever likely that she, and the negotiating team, were ever going to be able to do so is now moot - but as Hobbit mentioned, there are plans tat should have allowed for some sort of timing/event to have been used.

And, of course, there STILL has to be a 'seamless' border created, at least between North and South, to ensure that the Good Friday Agreement isn't breached!
		
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Meanwhile both Johnson and Hunt rule out removal of a time limit on the backstop and unilateral UK exit from the backstop as options...and even although the EU had ruled-out a time limited backstop and unilateral exit - there were noises off that there might be some flexibility by the EU in these two areas.  Now they have been ruled out what is Johnson going to negotiate with the EU?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			Heâ€™ll never admit the EU are at fault.
		
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It is the UK that is leaving the EU - not the other way around - and the EU are protecting (as best they see it) the best interests of the EU27 and the GF Agreement.  The EU are at fault for not bowing to the wishes of the UK?  The EU did not set down red lines following the referendum.  The EU's constraints were already there - there for all to see - and we knew about them all along.  The UK then set out Red Lines that were immediately inconsistent with what was known about the EU's constraints.  And so at that point many said we'd end up with No Deal.  

Meanwhile Johnson removes two key negotiable aspects of the backstop - these aspects being what those opposed to the Backstop were most concerned about - that the back stop was not time-limited and that EU had to agree to any solution for the UK to be able to exit it.


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile both Johnson and Hunt rule out removal of a time limit on the backstop and unilateral UK exit from the backstop as options...and even although the EU had ruled-out a time limited backstop and unilateral exit - there were noises off that there might be some flexibility by the EU in these two areas.  Now they have been ruled out what is Johnson going to negotiate with the EU?
		
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That, presumably, pushes him (them) towards 'No Deal' - with border/backstop arrangements being negotiated subsequently. 

Of course, participation in the Customs Union - without the restrictions of EU control over Trade Deals - would solve much of the issue. But I don't believe that's an acceptable 'deal' from EU's pov!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Nice selfie!
		
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You were one of them, will let you decide which one.


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			Heâ€™ll never admit the EU are at fault.
		
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To me, BOTH are 'at fault' because they couldn't reach an (acceptable) agreement!

And now - just like a divorce - it's not an issue about 'fault', but how to achieve the 'divorce'! 

I don't believe an extension is the correct approach - except in the (frankly unlikely) situation where both parties agree that a 'deal' is imminent, but needs a short time to be finalised.


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## Foxholer (Jul 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You were one of them, will let you decide which one.
		
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## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:





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Seems like you got it  right ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€


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## spongebob59 (Jul 17, 2019)

PV campaign splits

https://www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/alexwickham/peoples-vote-war-over-remain?__twitter_impression=true


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## Hobbit (Jul 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is the UK that is leaving the EU - not the other way around - and the EU are protecting (as best they see it) the best interests of the EU27 and the GF Agreement.  The EU are at fault for not bowing to the wishes of the UK?  The EU did not set down red lines following the referendum.  The EU's constraints were already there - there for all to see - and we knew about them all along.  The UK then set out Red Lines that were immediately inconsistent with what was known about the EU's constraints.  And so at that point many said we'd end up with No Deal.

Meanwhile Johnson removes two key negotiable aspects of the backstop - these aspects being what those opposed to the Backstop were most concerned about - that the back stop was not time-limited and that EU had to agree to any solution for the UK to be able to exit it.
		
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Very early in this mess you asked time and time again for compromise. May's deal is full of compromise, oodles of it. Add to that a number of other offers, e.g. on CAP controls/tariffs and a monitoring body with the ECJ being the final adjudicator, continued access on fishing, seamless border in Northern Ireland. And on EU banking access, not reciprocated. May herself spoke many times on finding a Brexit that satisfied Brexiteers and Remainers, and retaining significant synergy with the EU.

Just what has the EU offered? And bearing in mind the dangers the EU has readily acknowledged it will suffer just how far have they bent? You are right, they don't have to, but neither does the UK. Personally, I'd tell them to get stuffed. I'd happily go for a No Deal than accept May's sell-out. Leave and then negotiate, including the Â£39bn in that negotiation. I don't have a problem with the EU not bending on their 4x F's but the Good Friday Agreement isn't one of those F's, but you want to include it........

You've seen the links to the Beeb articles on the border controls before you left on your jaunt. You've seen the links to the Common Travel Area Agreement the UK has with Ireland before you went on your jaunt. You've never once acknowledged their validity, preferring to say "we've heard Leavers say..." Go and look for the AVCO report the EU Civil Servants produced in December. Go and look for the project the EU has long since started on seamless cross-border trade. And then come back and say the UK is wrong, if you dare... and if you do I'll call you a liar.

Yes the UK is leaving but the doesn't mean they have to doff their cap and touch their forelock. So where's your compromise? What are you willing to accept as part of a Leave deal? When will you accept both sides need to bend if there's to be an equitable deal. You came back full of resignation to BoJo and No Deal, but it hasn't taken you long to revert to the biased, blinkered UK wrong/EU golden zealot you were before.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 18, 2019)

Good read :

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/07/varadkars-backstop-gamble-could-cost-ireland-dearly/


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## spongebob59 (Jul 18, 2019)

So May never brought no deal to the table despite her ' No deal is better than bad deal ' mantra.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151747761433395202


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 18, 2019)

Amendment to a NI bill passed in HoC that may well prevent BJ proroguing parliament.  Feels like PM BJ's first HoC defeat... 

And the scale of the defeat on the amendment suggests PM BJ will have fun and games over a _No Deal _Brexit.  At least he knows he has some Labour MPs on his side...


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 18, 2019)

Have we now reached a situation where Larry the Cat speaks more sense than the 2 people wanting to be the next PM?  Funny old world.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151846643324641280


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Have we now reached a situation where Larry the Cat speaks more sense than the 2 people wanting to be the next PM?  Funny old world.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151846643324641280

Click to expand...

Can you, or Larry the Cat, point us to the proof of the costs, or is this just more speculation?


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## Dando (Jul 18, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can you, or Larry the Cat, point us to the proof of the costs, or is this just more speculation?
		
Click to expand...

If itâ€™s on Twitter and bashes leaving the EU it must be true and youâ€™ll be deemed a traitor for questioning it


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 18, 2019)

Assume Larry is referring to this?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49027889


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Assume Larry is referring to this?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49027889

Click to expand...

The article, the third paragraph of which states that the scenario is based on assumptions; that article?


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			The article, the third paragraph of which states that the scenario is based on assumptions; that article?
		
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Earlier this month Philip Hammond said the cost would be Â£90bn. Hell of a difference between Â£30bn and Â£90bn. The hysteria is ramping up...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 18, 2019)

Both sides pluck those numbers out of the air. Total guess work and close to worthless. Didn't Osborne come out with similar guff for what would happen post vote?


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## chrisd (Jul 18, 2019)

BBC news saying a no deal will result in a Â£31b cost to the economy. Surely if we then keep the Â£39b we'll be Â£8b better off?


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## Foxholer (Jul 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Earlier this month Philip Hammond said the cost would be Â£90bn. Hell of a difference between Â£30bn and Â£90bn. The hysteria is ramping up...
		
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Hammond's (Treasury) Â£90Bn specifies 'by 2035'. An incredibly long term, even for 'planners'. So not really realistic imo! There's no 'term' that I can see (happy to be informed of one) for the Â£30Bn estimate.

More 'disinformation' from Bojo though.... His Kipper story appears to be complete twaddle - for a couple of reasons! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49030873


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Both sides pluck those numbers out of the air. Total guess work and close to worthless. Didn't Osborne come out with similar guff for what would happen post vote?
		
Click to expand...

Thats right, he did and it was Twaddle ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Assume Larry is referring to this?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49027889

Click to expand...

Hammonds prediction is over 15 years, not per year.  However, the treasuries form on predictions is not exactly bulletproof.


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## jp5 (Jul 18, 2019)

The lack of self-awareness is quite something 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151186908392951809


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2019)

jp5 said:



			The lack of self-awareness is quite something 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151186908392951809

Click to expand...

Everything is something.


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## Mudball (Jul 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Hammond's (Treasury) Â£90Bn specifies 'by 2035'. An incredibly long term, even for 'planners'. So not really realistic imo! There's no 'term' that I can see (happy to be informed of one) for the Â£30Bn estimate.

More 'disinformation' from Bojo though.... His Kipper story appears to be complete twaddle - for a couple of reasons! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49030873

Click to expand...

Well Larry has got 9 lives... so i assume larry's figures of 30b will be within that term..


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## patricks148 (Jul 19, 2019)

Watched a program about the whole sorry affair on TV last night, think it was the Beeb, TM aged about 20 years in the 3 years since she became PM.


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## Dando (Jul 19, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Watched a program about the whole sorry affair on TV last night, think it was the Beeb, TM aged about 20 years in the 3 years since she became PM.
		
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that's because she's been reading this thread!


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## Kellfire (Jul 19, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Watched a program about the whole sorry affair on TV last night, think it was the Beeb, TM aged about 20 years in the 3 years since she became PM.
		
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Worth a watch? Saw it at 10pm on BBC1 but was winding down for the night.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Very early in this mess you asked time and time again for compromise. May's deal is full of compromise, oodles of it. Add to that a number of other offers, e.g. on CAP controls/tariffs and a monitoring body with the ECJ being the final adjudicator, continued access on fishing, seamless border in Northern Ireland. And on EU banking access, not reciprocated. May herself spoke many times on finding a Brexit that satisfied Brexiteers and Remainers, and retaining significant synergy with the EU.

Just what has the EU offered? And bearing in mind the dangers the EU has readily acknowledged it will suffer just how far have they bent? You are right, they don't have to, but neither does the UK. Personally, I'd tell them to get stuffed. I'd happily go for a No Deal than accept May's sell-out. Leave and then negotiate, including the Â£39bn in that negotiation. I don't have a problem with the EU not bending on their 4x F's but the Good Friday Agreement isn't one of those F's, but you want to include it........

You've seen the links to the Beeb articles on the border controls before you left on your jaunt. You've seen the links to the Common Travel Area Agreement the UK has with Ireland before you went on your jaunt. You've never once acknowledged their validity, preferring to say "we've heard Leavers say..." Go and look for the AVCO report the EU Civil Servants produced in December. Go and look for the project the EU has long since started on seamless cross-border trade. And then come back and say the UK is wrong, if you dare... and if you do I'll call you a liar.

Yes the UK is leaving but the doesn't mean they have to doff their cap and touch their forelock. So where's your compromise? What are you willing to accept as part of a Leave deal? When will you accept both sides need to bend if there's to be an equitable deal. You came back full of resignation to BoJo and No Deal, but it hasn't taken you long to revert to the biased, blinkered UK wrong/EU golden zealot you were before.
		
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OK - I agree I am not fully informed, and indeed I am ignorant, about detail associated with leaving; the negotiations; and leaving on No Deal - despite my efforts to become informed (in part by trying to take on what you point me to).  That being the true then I suggest that your own understanding of the detail being much better than mine and most probably the vast majority of the electorate supports the case for the need for an informed debate around leaving on _No Deal _and for a confirmatory referendum 

That aside - yes - the EU can be viewed as being partly, or indeed jointly, responsible for the situation we find ourselves in - even although their intransigence is surely only self-serving.  If the EU had seen benefits that outweighed the risks to the EU in anything that the UK has suggested, then would they not have taken these suggestions on-board.

In any case - if you listen to such as Tim Martin on leaving on a _No Deal_ basis (as expressed in a Dublin pub on Panorama last night - which btw I thought was not very informative at all - pretty poor in fact - a skim that didn't tell me much more that I didn't know other than some fishermen have quite some faith in Spanish and French customers continuiing to buy our fish no matter what) - then he might well say that we have to *thank *the EU for being so intransigent, his view being very strongly that _No Deal _is better than *any* deal.

It is just a pity that we did not hear more of such voices in *support *of _No Deal _during the lead up to the vote - at least then we would have been able to get to the bottom of what leaving with _No Deal_ would actually mean - though when Remain told us, their words were dismissed as Project Fear and so not to be listened to or believed.


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## patricks148 (Jul 19, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Worth a watch? Saw it at 10pm on BBC1 but was winding down for the night.
		
Click to expand...

yes, but the one we watched was on at 9 i think


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## spongebob59 (Jul 19, 2019)

BREAKING --> GERMANY'S MERKEL SAYS IF FIND SOLUTION FOR IRISH BORDER IN POLITICAL DECLARATION, THE BACKSTOP WILL BE OVERWRITTEN (reuters)


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## Foxholer (Jul 19, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			BREAKING --> GERMANY'S MERKEL SAYS IF FIND SOLUTION FOR IRISH BORDER IN POLITICAL DECLARATION, THE BACKSTOP WILL BE OVERWRITTEN (reuters)
		
Click to expand...

Irish press seem to have leaped on Merkel's statement as some nnew development! But there's actually nothing new there!

The whole purpose of the 'backstop' is to have some rules for what happens if NO solution is found! By default, if A solution is found, there's no need for a 'backstop!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 19, 2019)

Boris the Bold has the answer to the backstop....he is going rename it the Stopback.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

BJ telling us (today in the DT?) that if man can go to the moon then there *will *be a technical solution to support the management of an open border in Ireland between the UK and the EU.  That being the case what is the issue with the backstop that is blocking Eurosceptic MP agreement of May's Agreement.  Yes - the EU would have to agree it - but by the time the technical solution is ready to be implemented I suspect the EU may be happy to be well shot of us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

Unfortunately I can only see Farage; the BP; the ERG and their ilk rejecting pretty much any deal that BJ might be able to cobble together and agree with the EU.  And I suspect that they will spin things so that too many voters would believe that we were being shanghaied by the EU and Remoaners into that deal and Leave voter anger will rise, as will The BP.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

Do the shipping events in the gulf; the UK's naval limitations in being able to protecting our interests in that region; the suggestion UK could have, but had not, requested US support; and the suggestion that our European friends could jointly work with us protecting each other's assets across the globe - does not all of this support the case for an *EU Rapid Reaction Force* (as opposed to an army - armies as such being pretty much an anachronism for most countries in today's world) - such a force being something most Leave voters find abhorrent and a reason to leave.

Also whither Trident as a deterrent...and Trident renewal?  Let's spend all those Â£Bn10s on naval, and airborne assets and forces instead?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do the shipping events in the gulf; the UK's naval limitations in being able to protecting our interests in that region; the suggestion UK could have, but had not, requested US support; and the suggestion that our European friends could jointly work with us protecting each other's assets across the globe - does not all of this support the case for an *EU Rapid Reaction Force* (as opposed to an army - armies as such being pretty much an anachronism for most countries in today's world) - such a force being something most Leave voters find abhorrent and a reason to leave.

Also whither Trident as a deterrent...and Trident renewal?  Let's spend all those Â£Bn10s on naval, and airborne assets and forces instead?
		
Click to expand...

You cannot rapid respond naval vessels from Europe to the Gulf, you need a permanent force in place to have a chance of making any impact.

I imagine the next step will be to convoy tankers under the protection warships, I think this has been done before. Its rather ironic the UK has found its self in the current position through implementing current EU trade embargoes on Iran, will we see other EU countries rushing out miltary support to the gulf. I think we know what countries will be left to deal with the consequences.


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## Hobbit (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BJ telling us (today in the DT?) that if man can go to the moon then there *will *be a technical solution to support the management of an open border in Ireland between the UK and the EU.  That being the case what is the issue with the backstop that is blocking Eurosceptic MP agreement of May's Agreement.  Yes - the EU would have to agree it - but by the time the technical solution is ready to be implemented I suspect the EU may be happy to be well shot of us.
		
Click to expand...

And the Deputy Prime Minister for Ireland has said that checks can be done away from the border, and that a hard border crossing will not be implemented. So why were the EU saying the back stop has to be there? Spin your post on its head and ask the EU why they wanted the back stop. Never mind asking why the Eurosceptic MP's railed against it, ask why the EU wanted it.

If they are now saying its not needed, just who was negotiating in good faith?


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## drdel (Jul 22, 2019)

^^^ Exactly.

The EU has not negotiated they've just stonewalled in the hope the UK will capitulate and in the process prevent other members breaking ranks


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			^^^ Exactly.

The EU has not negotiated they've just stonewalled in the hope the UK will capitulate and in the process prevent other members breaking ranks
		
Click to expand...

The EU has stuck resolutely to their 4Fs constraints in their negotiations - constraints that of course we knew all about in advance of the vote and commencing negotiations - constraints that we knew were inconsistent with May's Red Lines as soon as she set them out.  But in the face of that intransigence, the UK does not have to capitulate - we can just leave; but we 'just leave' with consequences, and these consequences will be of our doing because it would be UK alone which would chose to 'just leave'. 

If the EU had an 'on balance' self-interest in making it easy or beneficial for the UK to leave, then I would have thought that they would have enabled that - but clearly, at the moment, the EU considers that their balance of interests calculation is to not facilitate such an exit - that may well change in the coming months under a BJ 'belief' leadership. The EU wants us to remain - and will do what they can within their constraints to make that happen as it is in the EU27's interest for that to happen - but not when the overall balance of consequences is not in the EU's self-interest.


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## chrisd (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The EU has stuck resolutely to their 4Fs constraints in their negotiations - constraints that of course we knew all about in advance of the vote and commencing negotiations - constraints that we knew were inconsistent with May's Red Lines as soon as she set them out.  But in the face of that intransigence, the UK does not have to capitulate - we can just leave; but we 'just leave' with consequences, and these consequences will be of our doing because it would be UK alone which would chose to 'just leave'. 

If the EU had an 'on balance' self-interest in making it easy or beneficial for the UK to leave, then I would have thought that they would have enabled that - but clearly, at the moment, the EU considers that their balance of interests calculation is to not facilitate such an exit - that may well change in the coming months under a BJ 'belief' leadership. The EU wants us to remain - and will do what they can within their constraints to make that happen as it is in the EU27's interest for that to happen - but not when the overall balance of consequences is not in the EU's self-interest.
		
Click to expand...

You do write a load of tosh. The EU are simply trying to make an example of us so other countries dont follow suit. More important is that with BJ it's less likely that we'll part with the Â£39b if we go with no deal and that'll be the beginning of the end of their masterplan for a country called Europe!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You cannot rapid respond naval vessels from Europe to the Gulf, you need a permanent force in place to have a chance of making any impact.

I imagine the next step will be to convoy tankers under the protection warships, I think this has been done before. Its rather ironic the UK has found its self in the current position through implementing current EU trade embargoes on Iran, will we see other EU countries rushing out miltary support to the gulf. I think we know what countries will be left to deal with the consequences.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed - though rapid reaction forces don't have to be based in the home country - they can be based more locally perhaps?  Maybe one of our new carriers could be the floating home of an EU RRF in the Gulf


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You do write a load of tosh. The EU are simply trying to make an example of us so other countries dont follow suit. More important is that with BJ it's less likely that we'll part with the Â£39b if we go with no deal and that'll be the beginning of the end of their masterplan for a country called Europe!
		
Click to expand...

That is your opinion - and indeed it might well be true as it would be part of their overall consideration of the balance of risks and benefits...and we would have known that all along - so why are we upset or surprised?

And the Â£39bn?  Well OK - we withhold that when we leave with _No Deal_ - and with the EU sending billions to support the economy of Ireland (that our _No Deal _leaving will knacker), I suggest that when we knock on the door of the EU or they come knocking on ours - we will discover even more of what IDS referred to yesterday as the EU's _'mastery of hard-nosed negotiation'.  _And, when looking for deals around the world, there is I am sure nothing like being seen as a country that reneges on commitments made to a partner - whether these are legally enforceable or not it's not great optics I suggest.


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## Foxholer (Jul 22, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You do write a load of tosh. The EU are simply trying to make an example of us so other countries dont follow suit. More important is that with BJ it's less likely that we'll part with the Â£39b if we go with no deal and that'll be the beginning of the end of their masterplan for a country called Europe!
		
Click to expand...

While I agree with you about 'trying to make an example...', the rest is just as mush (hopeful) tosh - imo! Much of the Â£39Bn is legitimate commitments - to pensions anjd other already committed funding - for which UK will actually benefit from. But it's highly likely that those payments will get hidden in (presumably) BoJo's Treasury accounting.

It's all 'Politics/Politicking' and none of the participants are truly 'honest' about anything. Boris is particularly deceitful imo! But that/this appears to be the nature of politics these days - it's the world of the 'best' headline as opposed to the best overall policy!


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## chrisd (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That is your opinion - and indeed it might well be true as it would be part of their overall consideration of the balance of risks and benefits...and we would have known that all along - so why are we upset or surprised?

And the Â£39bn?  Well OK - we withhold that when we leave with _No Deal_ - and with the EU sending billions to support the economy of Ireland (that our _No Deal _leaving will knacker), I suggest that when we knock on the door of the EU or they come knocking on ours - we will discover even more of what IDS referred to yesterday as the EU's _'mastery of hard-nosed negotiation'.  _And, when looking for deals around the world, there is I am sure nothing like being seen as a country that reneges on commitments made to a partner - whether these are legally enforceable or not it's not great optics I suggest.
		
Click to expand...

Reneges on commitments? - what happened to "nothings agreed until everything is agreed"


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## Hobbit (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That is your opinion - and indeed it might well be true as it would be part of their overall consideration of the balance of risks and benefits...and we would have known that all along - so why are we upset or surprised?

And the Â£39bn?  Well OK - we withhold that when we leave with _No Deal_ - and with the EU sending billions to support the economy of Ireland (that our _No Deal _leaving will knacker), I suggest that when we knock on the door of the EU or they come knocking on ours - we will discover even more of what IDS referred to yesterday as the EU's _'mastery of hard-nosed negotiation'.  _And, when looking for deals around the world, there is I am sure nothing like being seen as a country that reneges on commitments made to a partner - whether these are legally enforceable or not it's not great optics I suggest.
		
Click to expand...




chrisd said:



			Reneges on commitments? - what happened to "nothings agreed until everything is agreed"
		
Click to expand...

The Beeb did a good piece on the Â£39bn about a month ago. It can, probably, still be found on their news website. The majority of the Â£39bn is budget commitments during the implementation period, if May's deal had been accepted.

As a decision to go for a No Deal would not include an implementation period, that portion of the bill wouldn't need to be paid.

Beyond that, the EU has consistently said it will not start any trade negotiations until the issue of financial commitments, UK citizens rights in the EU and the Irish border is decided.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The Beeb did a good piece on the Â£39bn about a month ago. It can, probably, still be found on their news website. The majority of the Â£39bn is budget commitments during the implementation period, if May's deal had been accepted.

As a decision to go for a No Deal would not include an implementation period, that portion of the bill wouldn't need to be paid.

Beyond that, the EU has consistently said it will not start any trade negotiations until the issue of financial commitments, UK citizens rights in the EU and the Irish border is decided.
		
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I agree.  Though a fair amount was linked to projects already funded, and committed to, that run beyond the implementation period.  In any case wasn't Johnson still talking about some form of transition period after leaving to sort things out?

And whatever we might think about leaving with _No Deal_ - almost immediately we leave we have to start negotiating a Deal with the EU  And they may not be in the best frame of mind if we withhold much or all of the Â£39Bn (I believe that it's now a good few billion less than that now as we have burned up time to the end of the current MFF due to end in 2020 and upon which some of the Â£39bn was calculated).

Further if we renege on some or all of what we signed up to pay - then the international Credit Reference agencies could well downgrade our rating.  And one reason why that matters is that with a poorer credit worthiness rating we do not get the best rates of interest on the money we wish to borrow from markets - or indeed it impacts our ability to borrow that money - because we might renege on the repayment (just like you or I missing a loan payment impacts our Credit Scoring).  And if we believe what Johnson has told us - then we *will *have to borrow money.

_Being downgraded can have a big impact on a countryâ€™s ability to borrow money on the markets. Investors see it as a riskier bet and demand higher returns to lend to governments. _

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/12/what-is-a-credit-rating-downgrade/


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## Hobbit (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree.  Though a fair amount was linked to projects already funded, and committed to, that run beyond the implementation period.  In any case wasn't Johnson still talking about some form of transition period after leaving to sort things out?

And whatever we might think about leaving with _No Deal_ - almost immediately we leave we have to start negotiating a Deal with the EU  And they may not be in the best frame of mind if we withhold much or all of the Â£39Bn (I believe that it's now a good few billion less than that now as we have burned up time to the end of the current MFF due to end in 2020 and upon which some of the Â£39bn was calculated).

Further if we renege on some or all of what we signed up to pay - then the international Credit Reference agencies could well downgrade our rating.  And one reason why that matters is that with a poorer credit worthiness rating we do not get the best rates of interest on the money we wish to borrow from markets - or indeed it impacts our ability to borrow that money - because we might renege on the repayment (just like you or I missing a loan payment impacts our Credit Scoring).  And if we believe what Johnson has told us - then we *will *have to borrow money.

_Being downgraded can have a big impact on a countryâ€™s ability to borrow money on the markets. Investors see it as a riskier bet and demand higher returns to lend to governments. _

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/12/what-is-a-credit-rating-downgrade/

Click to expand...

Its a moot point, the payments due on projects started(Â£19bn). It could be argued that the UK won't benefit from those projects. Its already been recognised by the EU, who have said they will pay the UK for its share of completed projects and those already started. Whether that equates to the money already paid on a particular project, who knows. Probably a case by case thing but in terms of monies paid 'v' monies returned, I don't expect there to be a big number either way - both sides will want it to be close to zero. The EU won't want to pay money out as it sees a 14% reduction, the UK budget contribution, in its budget.

The Law Lords ruling is very clear. There was no wording in the EU Articles that imposes ongoing costs on a country that leaves. That said, they qualified their ruling by adding that they would expect to see the EU take up a case in The Hague for arbitration.

As for the credit rating; no law, including EU law would have been broken. No financial commitment would have been reneged on. I'd argue that the EU has really screwed up the binding commitments part of Article 50, i.e. there isn't a commitment. Equally, I'd expect The Hague to rule in favour of the EU, as common sense surely dictates that if you are a signatory for a project you are liable for the costs. Dropping out of a project could be seen as a breach of contract.

As for banks not wanting to loan money to the UK - hahahaha. There's a whole lot of countries with far, far worse financial positions than the UK. And, of course, the UK will not have reneged on a bank loan. "Will have to borrow money..." It already does.

Found the Beeb article.  https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48586677


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## drdel (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The EU has stuck resolutely to their 4Fs constraints in their negotiations - constraints that of course we knew all about in advance of the vote and commencing negotiations - constraints that we knew were inconsistent with May's Red Lines as soon as she set them out.  But in the face of that intransigence, the UK does not have to capitulate - we can just leave; but we 'just leave' with consequences, and these consequences will be of our doing because it would be UK alone which would chose to 'just leave'.

If the EU had an 'on balance' self-interest in making it easy or beneficial for the UK to leave, then I would have thought that they would have enabled that - but clearly, at the moment, the EU considers that their balance of interests calculation is to not facilitate such an exit - that may well change in the coming months under a BJ 'belief' leadership. The EU wants us to remain - and will do what they can within their constraints to make that happen as it is in the EU27's interest for that to happen - but not when the overall balance of consequences is not in the EU's self-interest.
		
Click to expand...

You're mixing up the benefits/disbenefits of/to member states and the EU/Brussels


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## drdel (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree.  Though a fair amount was linked to projects already funded, and committed to, that run beyond the implementation period.  In any case wasn't Johnson still talking about some form of transition period after leaving to sort things out?

And whatever we might think about leaving with _No Deal_ - almost immediately we leave we have to start negotiating a Deal with the EU  And they may not be in the best frame of mind if we withhold much or all of the Â£39Bn (I believe that it's now a good few billion less than that now as we have burned up time to the end of the current MFF due to end in 2020 and upon which some of the Â£39bn was calculated).

Further if we renege on some or all of what we signed up to pay - then the international Credit Reference agencies could well downgrade our rating.  And one reason why that matters is that with a poorer credit worthiness rating we do not get the best rates of interest on the money we wish to borrow from markets - or indeed it impacts our ability to borrow that money - because we might renege on the repayment (just like you or I missing a loan payment impacts our Credit Scoring).  And if we believe what Johnson has told us - then we *will *have to borrow money.

_Being downgraded can have a big impact on a countryâ€™s ability to borrow money on the markets. Investors see it as a riskier bet and demand higher returns to lend to governments. _

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/12/what-is-a-credit-rating-downgrade/

Click to expand...

Imaginary doom and gloom. The international finance world is much more rational and will recognise the unique situation of Brexit so next to no impact or cross fertilisation.


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## Hobbit (Jul 22, 2019)

Representatives from France, Holland, Germany, Belgium and Ireland have (independently) met with Boris Johnson's team to discuss Brexit and the withdrawal agreement. So much for a unified negotiating position from the commission. 

To quote Steve Coveney, the Deputy Prime Minister for Ireland, "If the approach of the new British Prime Minister is that theyâ€™re going to tear up the Withdrawal Agreement, then I think weâ€™re in trouble. Weâ€™re all in trouble, quite frankly, because itâ€™s a little bit like saying: â€˜Either give me what I want or Iâ€™m going to burn the house down for everybodyâ€™.â€

He added: â€œThe EU has made it very clear that we want to engage with a new British prime minister, we want to avoid a no-deal Brexit.â€

Sounds like BoJo can tell them the ball is in their court. They've seen and heard what the UK would like to see happen. Maybe its time they actually listened and bent a little.


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## Mudball (Jul 22, 2019)

Great to see how the EU is (not) reacting to oil tanker crises... This is even before we leave.   

I say we leave immediately and start negotiate with Iran and get the tankers released


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Representatives from France, Holland, Germany, Belgium and Ireland have (independently) met with Boris Johnson's team to discuss Brexit and the withdrawal agreement. So much for a unified negotiating position from the commission.

To quote Steve Coveney, the Deputy Prime Minister for Ireland, "If the approach of the new British Prime Minister is that theyâ€™re going to tear up the Withdrawal Agreement, then I think weâ€™re in trouble. Weâ€™re all in trouble, quite frankly, because itâ€™s a little bit like saying: â€˜Either give me what I want or Iâ€™m going to burn the house down for everybodyâ€™.â€

He added: â€œThe EU has made it very clear that we want to engage with a new British prime minister, we want to avoid a no-deal Brexit.â€

Sounds like BoJo can tell them the ball is in their court. They've seen and heard what the UK would like to see happen. Maybe its time they actually listened and bent a little.
		
Click to expand...

Coveney said that the EU has compromised to try and accommodate the UK's Red Lines - but that they will not simply do what the UK wants if that is just to satisfy UK internal political pressures.  And he was very clear that if the UK leaves without a deal that is the UK choice - and not the choice of the EU.  Just what he said.


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## Hobbit (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Coveney said that the EU has compromised to try and accommodate the UK's Red Lines - but that they will not simply do what the UK wants if that is just to satisfy UK internal political pressures.  And he was very clear that if the UK leaves without a deal that is the UK choice - and not the choice of the EU.  Just what he said.
		
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He may well have said that but you will note from my post I quoted him. I read the Sunday Times piece, and the piece on the Beebâ€™s website, and the piece in the Express. I didnâ€™t see any mention of an EU compromise on the U.K. red lines.

We now very clearly know the EU fears a No Deal. Good! Hopefully they will now compromise.

However, I would like to see the piece in which heâ€™s said that as that is not the language heâ€™s used previously.


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## Wolf (Jul 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Great to see how the EU is (not) reacting to oil tanker crises... This is even before we leave.  

I say we leave immediately and start negotiate with Iran and get the tankers released
		
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Tbh I think that's worthy of its own thread as that's a whole different debate to brexit


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You cannot rapid respond naval vessels from Europe to the Gulf, you need a permanent force in place to have a chance of making any impact.

I imagine the next step will be to convoy tankers under the protection warships, I think this has been done before. Its rather ironic the UK has found its self in the current position through implementing current EU trade embargoes on Iran, will we see other EU countries rushing out miltary support to the gulf. I think we know what countries will be left to deal with the consequences.
		
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And meanwhile across the Pond our bestest friend's SoS (Pompeo) tells the UK that looking after our interests in the Gulf region is up to us and nothing to do with the US.  Gee thanks buddy.  Guessing that's what America First is all about.  If we don't agree with the US on any matter (such as the Iran nuclear deal) then we can't expect any support or sympathy - well I suppose that's what friends are for then...The US will be our buddy if we align with them or do their bidding.  Is that what taking back control was all about?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He may well have said that but you will note from my post I quoted him. I read the Sunday Times piece, and the piece on the Beebâ€™s website, and the piece in the Express. I didnâ€™t see any mention of an EU compromise on the U.K. red lines.

We now very clearly know the EU fears a No Deal. Good! Hopefully they will now compromise.

However, I would like to see the piece in which heâ€™s said that as that is not the language heâ€™s used previously.
		
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Thing is - when Coveney talked of there having been compromise by both parties when coming to the agreement signed by May I don't know what compromises by the EU he was talking about.  I might well ask him where the EU has compromised - I would dearly like to know.

And I have not heard our government tell us about where the EU compromising has been - and perhaps why would they.  It suits UK politics for the UK government to paint a picture in which the EU has forced the UK - in our negotiating weakness - to compromise - with total intransigence by the EU - and that might play well with those Conservatives of a Brexit Party leaning.


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## Hobbit (Jul 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thing is - when Coveney talked of there having been compromise by both parties when coming to the agreement signed by May I don't know what compromises by the EU he was talking about.  I might well ask him where the EU has compromised - I would dearly like to know.

And I have not heard our government tell us about where the EU compromising has been - and perhaps why would they.  It suits UK politics for the UK government to paint a picture in which the EU has forced the UK - in our negotiating weakness - to compromise - with total intransigence by the EU - and that might play well with those Conservatives of a Brexit Party leaning.
		
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Isn't May's deal yesterday's news, today's chip papers? I quoted Coveney's most recent comments, and you quoted....???


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## drdel (Jul 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And meanwhile across the Pond our bestest friend's SoS (Pompeo) tells the UK that looking after our interests in the Gulf region is up to us and nothing to do with the US.  Gee thanks buddy.  Guessing that's what America First is all about.  If we don't agree with the US on any matter (such as the Iran nuclear deal) then we can't expect any support or sympathy - well I suppose that's what friends are for then...The US will be our buddy if we align with them or do their bidding.  Is that what taking back control was all about?
		
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I think you need to read below the hyped headline. Cruncing the complete speech I'd say the SoS was really saying something along the lines "...in the first instance..." which as a sovereign state is what the UK should expect. Had he waded in you would have said UK is being ordered about by USA.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Isn't May's deal yesterday's news, today's chip papers? I quoted Coveney's most recent comments, and you quoted....???
		
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I was quoting comments he made on Andrew Marr on Sunday...?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think you need to read below the hyped headline. Cruncing the complete speech I'd say the SoS was really saying something along the lines "...in the first instance..." which as a sovereign state is what the UK should expect. Had he waded in you would have said UK is being ordered about by USA.
		
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My understanding is that we may not have asked in any case...not wanting to be seen to be too close to the US foreign policy (whatever that is today) and that is maybe not a bad thing and something I might agree with.   But it does mean that we and our assets are rather exposed.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 23, 2019)

Meanwhile on planet LibDumb :

Speaking to BBC News this afternoon, newly elected Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson (or should that be Joanna Swanson?) revealed she would only accept the result of a second referendum if Remain won. If Leave won she would continue to work to block the result in Parliament. 
_â€œWould you vote for [the result if Leave won] in Parliament?â€
â€œNo.â€_​


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## Hobbit (Jul 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was quoting comments he made on Andrew Marr on Sunday...?
		
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Funnily enough, the bit I quoted from the papers/BBC is the very thing Coveney said in the beginning of his interview on the Marr show.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Meanwhile on planet LibDumb :

Speaking to BBC News this afternoon, newly elected Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson (or should that be Joanna Swanson?) revealed she would only accept the result of a second referendum if Remain won. If Leave won she would continue to work to block the result in Parliament.
_â€œWould you vote for [the result if Leave won] in Parliament?â€_​_â€œNo.â€_​

Click to expand...

Here's another (1) vote for democracy :

Caroline Lucas today joins Jo Swinson in saying she would not accept the result of a Second Referendum. The Green MP confirmed that she would vote down any Brexit deal in Parliament.
_â€œIf there were to be a referendum and Leave were to win it again, either more decisively or not, in the Commons would you then back a Brexit deal to leave?â€
â€œUm, no I probably wouldnâ€™t.â€_​


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## drdel (Jul 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Meanwhile on planet LibDumb :

Speaking to BBC News this afternoon, newly elected Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson (or should that be Joanna Swanson?) revealed she would only accept the result of a second referendum if Remain won. If Leave won she would continue to work to block the result in Parliament.
_â€œWould you vote for [the result if Leave won] in Parliament?â€_​_â€œNo.â€_​

Click to expand...

They share Juncker's/EU's version of  democratic decision-making


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Funnily enough, the bit I quoted from the papers/BBC is the very thing Coveney said in the beginning of his interview on the Marr show.
		
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I paraphrased from actually watching the interview...in fact Coveney stated clearly that if UK leaves with _No Deal_ then that was not the EU's choice; it was not Ireland's choice - it was the UK's choice.


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## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I paraphrased from actually watching the interview...in fact Coveney stated clearly that if UK leaves with _No Deal_ then that was not the EU's choice; it was not Ireland's choice - it was the UK's choice.
		
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And.... Surely it should be the UK's choice if the UK so desires. If the EU and the UK decide they want something inbetween, and can agree on what that in-between is, great. However, if the terms are so onerous, why should the UK be bound by them?

There's a hell of a lot in the early part of the Withdrawal Agreement that is good and equitable but, equally, the latter part of it is appalling. I hope he does consign it to the bin, and if the EU don't like that - bloody tough on them.

Leave is costing me hundreds of Euros a month, and I don't want Leave but the WA that the EU say they won't budge on is not a compromise deal in any way, shape or form.


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## ger147 (Jul 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I paraphrased from actually watching the interview...in fact Coveney stated clearly that if UK leaves with _No Deal_ then that was not the EU's choice; it was not Ireland's choice - it was the UK's choice.
		
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So when you said above you were "quoting" you were in fact "paraphrasing". I'm sure you weren't intentionally trying to be dishonest or mislead anyone.

You have more in common with Boris than you think...


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## spongebob59 (Jul 25, 2019)

Laura Kuenssberg
@bbclaurak

1h

So according to a source who knows their way around the machinations of Whitehall... if MPs want to be sure there is no chance of leaving without a deal they need to call and win a vote of no confidence today or the first day of recess


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154309504370139137


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

ger147 said:



			So when you said above you were "quoting" you were in fact "paraphrasing". I'm sure you weren't intentionally trying to be dishonest or mislead anyone.

You have more in common with Boris than you think...
		
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OK - what Coveney said exactly - though quite what I misrepresented of what Coveney said I am not sure.  And I quote.

_If a new British prime minister chooses to take Britain in that direction then it will happen. But this will be a British choice. Not an Irish choice.  Not an EU choice.  This is a British choice_

So when Johnson says, as he did today in the HoC, that if he cannot agree a new withdrawal agreement with the EU then he has *No Choice* but to leave on 31/10 with *No Deal.*  He is lying.  Because he DOES have a choice.  It may be unpalatable to him and all who support him - and adjusting the legislation that has 31/10 enshrined in it may not be that easy - but he still has a choice.  Coveney is absolutely correct in what he says.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1152879198395985920


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

..and as an aside - they can stop using the Â£39Bn figure - with exit delayed until 31/10 the figure is now Â£33Bn.   You can buy a lot of Smarties for Â£6Bn.


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## Hobbit (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and as an aside - they can stop using the Â£39Bn figure - with exit delayed until 31/10 the figure is now Â£33Bn.   You can buy a lot of Smarties for Â£6Bn.
		
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But what about the money paid from March till the end of October? Add that to your Â£33bn and it comes to Â£39bn give or take. It could be argued that the U.K. has been a full member during that time, but has it? What about the tenders that British businesses have been excluded from?


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## ger147 (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - what Coveney said exactly
		
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I wasn't making any comment on anything Coveney said, merely picking you up on your lie which I'm sure wasn't deliberate. Perhaps it was just an inadvertent mistake on your part?

I'm sure you have no issue in being held to the same high standards you hold others to...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But what about the money paid from March till the end of October? Add that to your Â£33bn and it comes to Â£39bn give or take. It could be argued that the U.K. has been a full member during that time, but has it? What about the tenders that British businesses have been excluded from?
		
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All that may be true - though how a contract let under EU Law to a British company on the basis of it being a member of the EU and so the company and it's delivery will be compliant and aligned with all EU rules, regulations, laws etc would work I do not know - might be dead straightforward. 

But that aside, what remains to be paid is Â£33Bn.  So when Johnson tells us he will not be paying the EU the Â£39Bn - he is telling a porkie.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 25, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I wasn't making any comment on anything Coveney said, merely picking you up on your lie which I'm sure wasn't deliberate. Perhaps it was just an inadvertent mistake on your part?

I'm sure you have no issue in being held to the same high standards you hold others to...
		
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OK - I said I quoted then I made clear that I had paraphrased what he had quoted.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 25, 2019)

One day... Hopefully...
The penny will drop there's no such a thing as 'no deal'...
Or, 'falling over a cliff'...


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But that aside, what remains to be paid is Â£33Bn.  So when Johnson tells us he will not be paying the EU the Â£39Bn - he is telling a porkie.
		
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Are you sure? If Boris agrees to pay the EU 33 billion then how is him saying he won't be paying 39 billion a lie? It is factually accurate, he won't be paying the EU 39 billion because we will only "owe" 33 billion - although I'm sure even the lower figure will be disputed as to whether that is the gross figure or nett of what we are due back from the EU.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 25, 2019)

The new Sec of State for Scotland is now saying the absolute opposite about leaving the EU with no deal than he told my daughter a couple of months ago at a one to one meeting at her warehouse.
Amazing what a whiff of power does to your honesty.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 26, 2019)

well said :








Tim Dawson

@Tim_R_Dawson
Â·
13h

I think a lot of Remainers, so obsessed with the "consequences" of Brexit, haven't thought through the consequences of Remaining. Certainly the end of the UK as a major player. The Euro, prbly. Abnegation of our legal system. 2016 was seminal: the status quo, as it was, is dead.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 26, 2019)

You know this bruhahaha about closing Parliament to get Brexit through against the wishes of our elected MP's.
Isn't Parliament closed right now.........â€¦. and all the leave MP's have gone off on their holidays.


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## IanM (Jul 26, 2019)

Quote of the day.... Barnier doesn't like the language Boris is using!   

I guess he isn't on the payroll like the last lot, lets hope is stays like it.


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## Hobbit (Jul 26, 2019)

IanM said:



			Quote of the day.... Barnier doesn't like the language Boris is using!  

I guess he isn't on the payroll like the last lot, lets hope is stays like it.
		
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Good, I'm all for it. To be honest, its no different to what May said about Red Lines and leaving on March 29th. Let's hope this PM isn't the wet dishcloth the last one was.


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## drdel (Jul 26, 2019)

I really don't get why Barnier, Macron, Merkel and Juncker are so surprised.

They sent May back with a Wda twice after the UK Parliament rejected it. All that BJ has said is there's no point going back to the UK again without change.

It was Ok for Juncker, et al to be insulting to May but BJ is being 'combative': it is about time we fired back. They have said repeatedly they did not know what the UK wanted, now they do.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You know this bruhahaha about closing Parliament to get Brexit through against the wishes of our elected MP's.
Isn't Parliament closed right now.........â€¦. and all the leave MP's have gone off on their holidays.

Click to expand...

Surely even you know they wont be away until October.   Can't see the problem with closing parliament, all that will happen is nothing will happen, the status quo will be maintained just like when the MPs voted for article 50 and the EU withdrawl bill.
What's wrong with that other than being careful what you vote for.


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## PieMan (Jul 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely even you know they wont be away until October.   Can't see the problem with closing parliament, all that will happen is nothing will happen, the status quo will be maintained just like when the MPs voted for article 50 and the EU withdrawl bill.
What's wrong with that other than being careful what you vote for.
		
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They more or less are as they return for around 9 days from memory in September; and then the House rises again for Conference season mid-September until mid-October.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 27, 2019)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9a46063e-afef-11e9-84cf-31ddba0e0fae


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## spongebob59 (Jul 27, 2019)

So remain played fair 

https://news.sky.com/story/cameron-...mas-back-of-the-queue-brexit-warning-11423669


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## Foxholer (Jul 27, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So remain played fair 

https://news.sky.com/story/cameron-...mas-back-of-the-queue-brexit-warning-11423669

Click to expand...

Quelle suprise!


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## Stuart_C (Jul 27, 2019)

I see the magic money tree has reappeared.....


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## 2blue (Jul 27, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			I see the magic money tree has reappeared.....
		
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Found by a set of clowns, I believe


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## Tashyboy (Jul 28, 2019)

Hmmmmm it seems the government is now planning for the â€œno dealâ€ Brexit Tashyboy forecast as soon as this brexit vote was announced. 
Would like to be a fly on the wall in Brussels.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 28, 2019)

2blue said:



			Found by a set of clowns, I believe 

Click to expand...

That would be on the good ship Brittania. ðŸ˜


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## SocketRocket (Jul 28, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			That would be on the good ship Brittania. ðŸ˜
		
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Seems like he was wearing a Corbyn mask.


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## Kellfire (Jul 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So remain played fair 

https://news.sky.com/story/cameron-...mas-back-of-the-queue-brexit-warning-11423669

Click to expand...

Did you read the article? The bit where they confirm that Obama was only telling the truth?


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## drdel (Jul 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Did you read the article? The bit where they confirm that Obama was only telling the truth?
		
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You might have noticed there is different POTUS/queue.

UK at front of Australia's queue!


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## User62651 (Jul 28, 2019)

Lightening the mood slightly, watching BT sport earlier it mentioned Tory MP Ross Douglas officiating at Elgin City v Hibernian yesterday, running the line. Thought that was odd but quite good, gets abuse as an MP then chooses to get more abuse away from work as a football linesman.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Did you read the article? The bit where they confirm that Obama was only telling the truth?
		
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He was saying what Cameron asked him to say.   Pretty obvious by the terminology.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 28, 2019)

How many splinters has bloke got on his ar*e 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155395308467183617


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## Kellfire (Jul 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He was saying what Cameron asked him to say.   Pretty obvious by the terminology.
		
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You didnâ€™t read the article then.


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He was saying what Cameron asked him to say.   Pretty obvious by the terminology.
		
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I think the issue your perhaps confusing is the part below 




			As Obama was saying that, somebody on the British side said 'yes, we'd end up being back of the queue' and everyone laughed and Obama said 'that's exactly right'.
		
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Obama wasn't told to say it, merely that during conversation someone said we'd be at the back of the queue he agreed that's right you will be. 

Cameron didn't ask him to say it. Obama said it himself, Cameron merely then asked him to go on record and state what he'd already said himself but to do it  during his address to the nation, to show what the US standpoint was.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 28, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I think the issue your perhaps confusing is the part below



Obama wasn't told to say it, merely that during conversation someone said we'd be at the back of the queue he agreed that's right you will be.

Cameron didn't ask him to say it. Obama said it himself, Cameron merely then asked him to go on record and state what he'd already said himself but to do it  during his address to the nation, to show what the US standpoint was.
		
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I think this is splitting hairs.  He was asked to say it and it was a British suggestion in the first place, if Cameron hadn't asked him I don't believe he would have made such a public statement.


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think this is splitting hairs.  He was asked to say it and it was a British suggestion in the first place, if Cameron hadn't asked him I don't believe he would have made such a public statement.
		
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I don't think it's splitting hairs at all, Obama said that's exactly what it is, whether in answer to a question or not it shows it was already the intent of the US


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## Tashyboy (Jul 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Seems like he was wearing a Corbyn mask.
		
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Not surprised there was a mutiny then.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 28, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Did you read the article? The bit where they confirm that Obama was only telling the truth?
		
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The gift that keeps on giving. 

Bottom line is Obama made himself look a grade one twat, for what. Pacifying Cameron who crapped his pants when the going got tough. If that was the truth i would of sooner he lied. Which he did.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I don't think it's splitting hairs at all, Obama said that's exactly what it is, whether in answer to a question or not it shows it was already the intent of the US
		
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The point is that it was used for project fear by Cameron.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I don't think it's splitting hairs at all, Obama said that's exactly what it is, whether in answer to a question or not it shows it was already the intent of the US
		
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Unless there's a specific trade barrier do you honestly think a buyer in the US isn't going to buy something if its the right price? Same applies to UK trade with the EU. Unless there's a barrier/quota limit, why wouldn't an EU buyer buy something if its the right price?

A trade deal, e.g. low/zero tariffs/quotas, is decided by govts but providing the seller and the buyer are happy with the price the product will still sell.


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## Wolf (Jul 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Unless there's a specific trade barrier do you honestly think a buyer in the US isn't going to buy something if its the right price? Same applies to UK trade with the EU. Unless there's a barrier/quota limit, why wouldn't an EU buyer buy something if its the right price?

A trade deal, e.g. low/zero tariffs/quotas, is decided by govts but providing the seller and the buyer are happy with the price the product will still sell.
		
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I'm not of that opinion at all I believe if something worth buying then they will. 

Was merely responding to the post and that it shows what their intent is/was but we all know politicians will change views quicker than they change their pants.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 29, 2019)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/28/boris-johnsons-100million-brexit-ad-campaign/

I'm afraid this is behind the Telegraph paywall, but I'm sure a few of you subscribe.  Anyway, apparently we are spending up to 100 million in the next 3 months on a No Deal advertising blitz.  Good then, I'm glad that whilst schools are struggling to find money to buy basic supplies and pay teachers and we have food banks at least we we can afford to cover the basics and do this. So Brexit party voters will get excited and will switch to vote for Bojo and the Tories in the upcoming general election.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2019)

But it does seem that - in almost a blink of an eye - leaving with _No Deal_ has gone from a 1:1000000 outside chance declared by BJ prior to becoming PM - to an almost dead cert.  

And we have various members of the front bench scrabbling around looking for anything from the Leave campaign that might suggest that we *knew *that leaving with _No Deal _was an absolute possibility (not just a negotiating ploy) - as likely if not more likely than the great deal we were assured that the EU would be forced to give us (we must remember that we were promised a deal that would mean we could retain all the benefits of being in the SM and CU - without actually being a member of the EU) - and that the vote on 23/6 gives absolute legitimacy to the government pursuing (as they are) a _No Deal_ exit.   

Such duplicity would beggar belief were it not for the charlatan in charge.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/28/boris-johnsons-100million-brexit-ad-campaign/

I'm afraid this is behind the Telegraph paywall, but I'm sure a few of you subscribe.  Anyway, apparently we are spending up to 100 million in the next 3 months on a No Deal advertising blitz.  Good then, I'm glad that whilst schools are struggling to find money to buy basic supplies and pay teachers and we have food banks at least we we can afford to cover the basics and do this. So Brexit party voters will get excited and will switch to vote for Bojo and the Tories in the upcoming general election.  

Click to expand...

I'm sure that the BBC report on this yesterday said it was Â£10 million.  Think one or other has got their decimal point in the wrong place.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I don't think it's splitting hairs at all, Obama said that's exactly what it is, whether in answer to a question or not it shows it was already the intent of the US
		
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We are going to be right at the front of the queue of countries that Trump has his beady eyes on for increasing US trade to.  In fact he has said that believes he can increase US trade to the UK by 5x - once the damn EU is out of the way stopping him.  Well that sounds really positive for indigenous business...


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But it does seem that - in almost a blink of an eye - leaving with _No Deal_ has gone from a 1:1000000 outside chance declared by BJ prior to becoming PM - to an almost dead cert. 

And we have various members of the front bench scrabbling around looking for anything from the Leave campaign that might suggest that we *knew *that leaving with _No Deal _was an absolute possibility (not just a negotiating ploy) - as likely if not more likely than the great deal we were assured that the EU would be forced to give us (we must remember that we were promised a deal that would mean we could retain all the benefits of being in the SM and CU - without actually being a member of the EU) - and that the vote on 23/6 gives absolute legitimacy to the government pursuing (as they are) a _No Deal_ exit.  

Such duplicity would beggar belief were it not for the charlatan in charge.
		
Click to expand...

The withdrawal agreement has been rejected by MPs 3 times. The EU are unwilling to renegotiate the WA. That means that the only two options are no deal or no Brexit and unless the EU change their minds it looks like it's going to be no deal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The withdrawal agreement has been rejected by MPs 3 times. The EU are unwilling to renegotiate the WA. That means that the only two options are no deal or no Brexit and unless the EU change their minds it looks like it's going to be no deal.
		
Click to expand...

Meanwhile we are hearing more of the 'undemocratic backstop' from the mouths of government ministers and such like - whatever it means it is just getting that phrase into the mind of the electorate so that when we leave with _No Deal _and it is not good they know who to blame - not those who have driven us of the cliff - oh no - fingers will be pointed at the EU - it is *their* fault for digging their heels in over that damned 'undemcratic backstop'


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## spongebob59 (Jul 29, 2019)

Good read on how the EU may have not prepared for no deal :

https://www.ft.com/content/65eb7ffe-af9a-11e9-8030-530adfa879c2


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 29, 2019)

Just if anyone has not heard, the backstop is now* undemocratic*. I repeat it is *undemocratic*.  This is obviously the new buzz phrase vomiting out of the mouths of the cabinet at every opportunity, so please ensure that when you preface the word 'backstop' with 'undemocratic' if you want to make a point on this thread.  If not then Rees-Mogg will be after you.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm sure that the BBC report on this yesterday said it was Â£10 million.  Think one or other has got their decimal point in the wrong place.
		
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All I can do is as many do and trust the neutral and balanced leavers paper of choice and the mouthpiece for the current PM over the liberal lefty biased BBC.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155588702128803840


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just if anyone has not heard, the backstop is now* undemocratic*. I repeat it is *undemocratic*.  This is obviously the new buzz phrase vomiting out of the mouths of the cabinet at every opportunity, so please ensure that when you preface the word 'backstop' with 'undemocratic' if you want to make a point on this thread.  If not then Rees-Mogg will be after you.
		
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Am I allowed to ask why it is undemocratic or what it is about the undemocratic backstop that makes it undemocratic?


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## drdel (Jul 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile we are hearing more of the 'undemocratic backstop' from the mouths of government ministers and such like - whatever it means it is just getting that phrase into the mind of the electorate so that when we leave with _No Deal _and it is not good they know who to blame - not those who have driven us of the cliff - oh no - fingers will be pointed at the EU - it is *their* fault for digging their heels in over that damned 'undemcratic backstop'
		
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You seem to be ignoring...
A referendum decision to leave the EU
MPs voted to trigger Article 50.
UK and EU spent time on a possible WA while ruling out future trade discusions
Parliament rejected the WA -3 times
New PM demands change to rejected WA because Parliament has decided
EU states no change is possible under their law/rules : in contradiction to Art 50.
UK PM decides to upgrade plans for an exit on EU stated date.

What do you suggest the UK should do that fulfills UK law?


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## spongebob59 (Jul 29, 2019)

Latest CBI statement :

_â€œOur view has not changed. Business wants a deal. But we are also pragmatists. We have been preparing our members for the possibility of no deal for many months. Now is the time to shift to an emergency footingâ€¦ *And, contrary to some claims, the EU is behind the UK in its plans to prevent the worst effectsâ€¦*
â€œThe CBI has set out more than 200 recommendations for action. For the government, it shows that good work has been carried out in prioritising short-term stability and temporary measures, such as its approach to licences for regulated EU goods importsâ€¦
â€œFor the EU, it means at least matching the UKâ€™s sensible temporary mitigations in a range of areas. They must look at further potential temporary standstills and extensions of emergency measures, especially around borders and data flows. They should also bring forward the ability for UK firms to apply for essential licences as a third country before the UK leavesâ€¦
â€œTwo stark messages stand out. The first is to get on with the work. The second is to get back to the negotiating table so that this wasteful and complex process becomes redundant. *The EUâ€™s preparations lag the UKâ€™s so itâ€™s in their interest as much as ours to use the dynamic of a new prime minister to reset the approach.â€*_


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## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/28/boris-johnsons-100million-brexit-ad-campaign/

I'm afraid this is behind the Telegraph paywall, but I'm sure a few of you subscribe.  Anyway, apparently we are spending up to 100 million in the next 3 months on a No Deal advertising blitz.  Good then, I'm glad that whilst schools are struggling to find money to buy basic supplies and pay teachers and we have food banks at least we we can afford to cover the basics and do this. So Brexit party voters will get excited and will switch to vote for Bojo and the Tories in the upcoming general election.  

Click to expand...

To quote a well known phrase or saying 'Twaddle'  You have been blissfully happy for the UK to subsidide the EU by around 9 Billion pounds a year, why have you not been complaining that this money should have been spent on schools,  teachers etc.  Unbelievable!


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			To quote a well known phrase or saying 'Twaddle'  You have been blissfully happy for the UK to subsidide the EU by around 9 Billion pounds a year, why have you not been complaining that this money should have been spent on schools,  teachers etc.  Unbelievable!
		
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Didn't see many Remainers howling at the money Cameron spent in the run up to the referendum.


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## IanM (Jul 29, 2019)

Advertising or readiness information?  

For the past 3 years, the EU knew that May would sign up to whatever they put on table.  There were no negotiations, just talks.  

Will this be different?  Who knows.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But it does seem that - in almost a blink of an eye - leaving with _No Deal_ has gone from a 1:1000000 outside chance declared by BJ prior to becoming PM - to an almost dead cert. 

And we have various members of the front bench scrabbling around looking for anything from the Leave campaign that might suggest that we *knew *that leaving with _No Deal _was an absolute possibility (not just a negotiating ploy) - as likely if not more likely than the great deal we were assured that the EU would be forced to give us (we must remember that we were promised a deal that would mean we could retain all the benefits of being in the SM and CU - without actually being a member of the EU) - and that the vote on 23/6 gives absolute legitimacy to the government pursuing (as they are) a _No Deal_ exit.  

Such duplicity would beggar belief were it not for the charlatan in charge.
		
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Personally, I always thought it was a possibility. Cameron and all the cronies he trotted out told everyone that a vote for Leave meant leaving the CU and the SM. I also thought that leaving would hurt the EU and they would want an equitable deal. May's deal is not equitable, and thank god its in the bin. 

The noises coming from some of the EU 27 suggest that reopening the WA is more desirable than No Deal - maybe that will happen.

As for the money and preparations being ramped up; The govt was damned, and you were one of the damners, when it looked like May's govt was dragging its heels on No Deal preparations. And now the govt is carrying out those preparations you're damning them again.

Think about how that looks. Everything you say is hugely negative in every single aspect of this issue. Where's the balanced argument? Where's the recognition that at least the govt is doing the right in thing in preparing for the worst scenario? You just can't see any morsel of good in anything can you?


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 29, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Am I allowed to ask why it is undemocratic or what it is about the undemocratic backstop that makes it undemocratic?
		
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It's a good question and to be honest I'm not sure, I'd like to say that they are banking on the word getting a certain type of voter all angry so they will vote for the Tories, but I don't know.  I'm confident that BoJo, Raab, Patel, and Javid will explain why in every interview they give in the next few weeks. Unless Cummings crunches the data and works out that it doesn't play well with potential Brexit party voters, in which case you won't hear it mentioned.

Here's one of the greatest political minds of our times using the phrase. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1155759804968833024


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Personally, I always thought it was a possibility. Cameron and all the cronies he trotted out told everyone that a vote for Leave meant leaving the CU and the SM. I also thought that leaving would hurt the EU and they would want an equitable deal. May's deal is not equitable, and thank god its in the bin.

The noises coming from some of the EU 27 suggest that reopening the WA is more desirable than No Deal - maybe that will happen.

As for the money and preparations being ramped up; The govt was damned, and you were one of the damners, when it looked like May's govt was dragging its heels on No Deal preparations. And now the govt is carrying out those preparations you're damning them again.

Think about how that looks. Everything you say is hugely negative in every single aspect of this issue. *Where's the balanced argument?* Where's the recognition that at least the govt is doing the right in thing in preparing for the worst scenario? You just can't see any morsel of good in anything can you?
		
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The government is of course doing the right thing in trying to prepare the UK for No Deal, but leaving with No Deal is surely NOT the governments #1 priority - as was stated by Raab today.  Negotiating a new deal should be.  Unless that is that was never a realistic objective and BJ and the Leavers knew it all along.

Interesting interview a few days ago by Gary Gibbon (Ch4 News) of the Europe Editor of the Daily Telegraph and the Political Editor of The Times - considering No Deal and No Deal preparations; general election etc.

https://www.channel4.com/news/no-de...nsons-brexit-plan-politics-where-next-podcast

I can see very little positive that goes any way whatsoever towards outweighing the negatives - and the risk of seriously disappointed leave supporters when they realise that they ain't going to get all they were promised.

It is not for me to extol the virtues and benefits of leaving - others can do that if they so wish to do.


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## IainP (Jul 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just if anyone has not heard, the backstop is now* undemocratic*. I repeat it is *undemocratic*.  This is obviously the new buzz phrase vomiting out of the mouths of the cabinet at every opportunity, so please ensure that when you preface the word 'backstop' with 'undemocratic' if you want to make a point on this thread.  If not then Rees-Mogg will be after you.
		
Click to expand...

I'll look/listen out for that one ðŸ‘

Probably something like 

43.  *undemocratic* backstop
42. *crash out* with no deal


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## spongebob59 (Jul 29, 2019)

See post # 10695 for undemocratic.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The government is of course doing the right thing in trying to prepare the UK for No Deal, but leaving with No Deal is surely NOT the governments #1 priority - as was stated by Raab today.  Negotiating a new deal should be.
		
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Finally something that I can agree with you on. But how do you suggest they negotiate a new deal when your precious EU have said, and continue to say, that they are unwilling to negotiate and the WA is not going to be changed?


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## Leftie (Jul 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is not for me to extol the virtues and benefits of leaving
		
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I'm very surprised that you actually realise that there are some virtues and benefits then ........ 

Actually, you are very much like my wife.  She also only sees the negative in everything that doesn't agree with her views.  Many thousands of posts ago I asked and repeatedly asked if you or anyone else could provide actual evidence of what the _long term_ benefits to the UK staying in the EU were.  *Not one single reply* to my question from "remainers" in several thousand posts.  Says it all really.  Just a lot of hot air and keyboard warriors who have nothing more constructive to do with their time.


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2019)

It looks like each of the EU27 are coming up with their own residencia laws. Thankfully us in Spain look ok-ish. Unfortunately the GBP tanking means that the FX transfer rate is hurting us by over 14%.

https://britishineurope.org/uk-citi...7AL-Znctg4ZcBfv8AD7fSOvv_i5tC03hxI2wemiF8bE7g


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## chrisd (Jul 31, 2019)

Leftie said:



			I'm very surprised that you actually realise that there are some virtues and benefits then ........ 

Actually, you are very much like my wife.  She also only sees the negative in everything that doesn't agree with her views.  Many thousands of posts ago I asked and repeatedly asked if you or anyone else could provide actual evidence of what the _long term_ benefits to the UK staying in the EU were.  *Not one single reply* to my question from "remainers" in several thousand posts.  Says it all really.  Just a lot of hot air and keyboard warriors who have nothing more constructive to do with their time.
		
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I'd also like to know how the individual EU countries plan to cope without our money and our inability to afford their goods


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## drdel (Jul 31, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'd also like to know how the individual EU countries plan to cope without our money and our inability to afford their goods
		
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The members' ability to cope it not on the 'EU/Brussels' to-do list; federalism is their aim - after their own expansionism.


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## Hobbit (Jul 31, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'd also like to know how the individual EU countries plan to cope without our money and our inability to afford their goods
		
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Most of them will be fine. The vast majority receive money, and have told the net contributors they wonâ€™t take any less. Holy hell has kicked off in the German Parliament over it, remember itâ€™s a coalition, with the minority party saying they wonâ€™t sanction extra money.

On another note, the UKâ€™s contribution is now up to Â£19bn, Â£12bn net. And theyâ€™re looking to add Albania and Montenegro to the 27. Wonder how much theyâ€™ll be contributing


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 31, 2019)

Leftie said:



			I'm very surprised that you actually realise that there are some virtues and benefits then ........ 

Actually, you are very much like my wife.  She also only sees the negative in everything that doesn't agree with her views.  Many thousands of posts ago I asked and repeatedly asked if you or anyone else could provide actual *evidence* of what the _*long term*_ benefits to the UK staying in the EU were.  *Not one single reply* to my question from "remainers" in several thousand posts.  Says it all really.  Just a lot of hot air and keyboard warriors who have nothing more constructive to do with their time.
		
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Define 'long term' and define 'evidence'?  There's been plenty of economic reports on the harm Brexit will cause to our economy, our legal and economic frameworks have been developed from within the EU for 40 odd years and I am sure we should be devoting more of our time and resources in the Uk to sorting out our problems than all the work needed to untangle ourselves, plus no one knows exactly how it will impact the peace process in Ireland, but I suspect it won't make it any more secure for starters. 

But I suspect whatever is said on both sides, the response will be that it is just conjecture and no one can point to anything that will definitely get better as a result of staying the same, i.e. staying in the EU, as it's in the future.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 31, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Define 'long term' and define 'evidence'?  There's been plenty of economic reports on the harm Brexit will cause to our economy, our legal and economic frameworks have been developed from within the EU for 40 odd years and I am sure we should be devoting more of our time and resources in the Uk to sorting out our problems than all the work needed to untangle ourselves, plus no one knows exactly how it will impact the peace process in Ireland, but I suspect it won't make it any more secure for starters.

But I suspect whatever is said on both sides, the response will be that it is just conjecture and no one can point to anything that will definitely get better as a result of staying the same, i.e. staying in the EU, as it's in the future.
		
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That you note it'll take a while to untangle ourselves from Brussels bureaucracy sums up all that is wrong with the whole gig... As I've said many times before about the only thing bureaucracy is proficient at is creating more... Got more than enough of our own lazy incompetent governance without needing to import any...


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## PieMan (Jul 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And theyâ€™re looking to add Albania and Montenegro to the 27. Wonder how much theyâ€™ll be contributing

Click to expand...

I have no doubt the Albanians will be encouraging the dregs of their society to take full advantage of those FoM benefits.......!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 31, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			That you note it'll take a while to untangle ourselves from Brussels bureaucracy sums up all that is wrong with the whole gig... As I've said many times before about the only thing bureaucracy is proficient at is creating more... Got more than enough of our own lazy incompetent governance without needing to import any...
		
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I meant more of a framework we are in that we need to untangle ourselves from, all these new free trade agreements that apparently will be the easiest thing to do that actually need doing, not specifically bureaucracy.

There will always be bureaucracy, health and safety, some silly rules, some sensible ones. It isn't going to dissappear once we leave the EU, it will still be there. Yes it will be our own bureaucracy and I imagine for some people that is better, but to me bureaucracy is bureaucracy, whether it comes from Brussels or London.


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## Mudball (Aug 1, 2019)

Just a quick question.. in the run up to BoJoâ€™s â€˜leave at any costâ€™, there have been some positive like the govt actually finding 2b for port chaos, stockpiling, US offering a quick deal etc. 
Equally there has been some downsides - pound is nearly at its lowest since the vote, car industry investments are down, manufacturers data indicates that they have locked up capital due to stockpiling, economy looking a bit shaky - true it is not the economic Armageddon that Osborne promised. 
Does anyone in the leave camp think - maybe, just maybe - it is not such a great economic idea or is everyone still thinking that â€˜exit at any costâ€™ is the best way forward?


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 1, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Just a quick question.. in the run up to BoJoâ€™s â€˜leave at any costâ€™, there have been some positive like the govt actually finding 2b for port chaos, stockpiling, US offering a quick deal etc.
Equally there has been some downsides - pound is nearly at its lowest since the vote, car industry investments are down, manufacturers data indicates that they have locked up capital due to stockpiling, economy looking a bit shaky - true it is not the economic Armageddon that Osborne promised.
Does anyone in the leave camp think - maybe, just maybe - it is not such a great economic idea or is everyone still thinking that â€˜exit at any costâ€™ is the best way forward?
		
Click to expand...

Pound is low because of uncertainty and instability. It goes up, it goes down. 
*maybe* if parliament stopped playing around and got the job done 5 months ago, their *might* be some confidence in the pound as we make trade deals and a clear road path of where we are going. 

Just holiday in Bulgaria and you wonâ€™t notice anyway.


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## drdel (Aug 1, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Just a quick question.. in the run up to BoJoâ€™s â€˜leave at any costâ€™, there have been some positive like the govt actually finding 2b for port chaos, stockpiling, US offering a quick deal etc.
Equally there has been some downsides - pound is nearly at its lowest since the vote, car industry investments are down, manufacturers data indicates that they have locked up capital due to stockpiling, economy looking a bit shaky - true it is not the economic Armageddon that Osborne promised.
Does anyone in the leave camp think - maybe, just maybe - it is not such a great economic idea or is everyone still thinking that â€˜exit at any costâ€™ is the best way forward?
		
Click to expand...

Some things are pretty clear (not exhaustive by any means)...
Low pound good for exports.
If sales switch from imports its also good for UK.
Good for domestic holiday industry, cafes etc
Downsides for ex-pats, overseas holiday makers
Bad for businesses importing, some food
Inwards invest good as lower acquisition cost.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 1, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Just a quick question.. in the run up to BoJoâ€™s â€˜leave at any costâ€™, there have been some positive like the govt actually finding 2b for port chaos, stockpiling, US offering a quick deal etc.
Equally there has been some downsides - pound is nearly at its lowest since the vote, car industry investments are down, manufacturers data indicates that they have locked up capital due to stockpiling, economy looking a bit shaky - true it is not the economic Armageddon that Osborne promised.
Does anyone in the leave camp think - maybe, just maybe - it is not such a great economic idea or is everyone still thinking that â€˜exit at any costâ€™ is the best way forward?
		
Click to expand...

As the â€œEstablishmentâ€ is dragged kicking and screaming towards the inevitable Brexit there is bound to be uncertainty in the economy, I expected it to get worse before it gets better...Once the proverbial nettle is grasped I then think our economy will improve and continue to outperform the rest of Europe. 
Short term pain long term gain.ðŸ‘


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## spongebob59 (Aug 1, 2019)

This is extraordinary. 
@guyverhofstadt
 doesnâ€™t even try to hide that fact that EU federalism will be forced on nation states whether they - or voters - like it or not. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1156650447547043840


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## robinthehood (Aug 1, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			As the â€œEstablishmentâ€ is dragged kicking and screaming towards the inevitable Brexit there is bound to be uncertainty in the economy, I expected it to get worse before it gets better...Once the proverbial nettle is grasped I then think our economy will improve and continue to outperform the rest of Europe. 
Short term pain long term gain.ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

You mean  get worse and get back to somewhere a bit worse than we are now?
Great.


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## Leftie (Aug 1, 2019)

Pure conjecture - apparently


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You mean  get worse and get back to somewhere a bit worse than we are now?
Great.
		
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But on the upside, a few already very wealthy people will have more opportunities to become even wealthier and keep their tax havens. Plus with the pound collapsing, we'll be ripe for even more foreign investment so any last remaining parts of our infrastructure and industry that we currently own can be sold off. So you know, swings and roundabouts.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			But on the upside, a few already very wealthy people will have more opportunities to become even wealthier. Plus with the pound collapsing, we'll be ripe for even more foreign investment so any last remaining parts of our infrastructure and industry that we currently own can be sold off. So you know, swings and roundabouts.
		
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Do you remember before the internet, that it was thought that the cause of collective stupidity was the lack of access to information?

Well... it wasnâ€™t that


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You mean  get worse and get back to somewhere a bit worse than we are now?
Great.
		
Click to expand...

Well itâ€™s not exactly great now is it really.
Foodbanks ,austerity, homelessness,manufacturing industries. Not the fault of the EU but it all ads up.
But itâ€™s great in London !
We have been in the EU for over forty years itâ€™s no great shakes imo.
So a different path is needed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2019)

If the people voted for a No Deal Brexit why has this Government farted about for 3 years desperately trying to get a deal.......asking for a friend


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If the people voted for a No Deal Brexit why has this Government farted about for 3 years desperately trying to get a deal.......asking for a friend

Click to expand...

We had a remainer in charge and a parliament that dosnt want to leave.


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## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2019)

I can't understand why the UK didn't take up the EU offer of a Canada+ deal that Tusk offered, instead favouring the BRINO abortion that May preferred.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Well itâ€™s not exactly great now is it really.
Foodbanks ,austerity, homelessness,manufacturing industries. Not the fault of the EU but it all ads up.
But itâ€™s great in London !
We have been in the EU for over forty years itâ€™s no great shakes imo.
So a different path is needed.
		
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Guessing you mean 'the city' when you say London... I've searched high and low and have yet to see any streets paved in gold...

London, in general, hasn't fared at all well whilst we've been part of 'the experiment'...


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Well itâ€™s not exactly great now is it really.
Foodbanks ,austerity, homelessness,manufacturing industries. Not the fault of the EU but it all ads up.
But itâ€™s great in London !
We have been in the EU for over forty years itâ€™s no great shakes imo.
So a different path is needed.
		
Click to expand...

So there is a lot of things that you rightly have identified that we need to address in this country. None of which is the fault of the EU as you say.  So instead of putting time and resources to help address those problems, you think the best approach is to spend an inordinate amount of of time, money and effort to leave the EU??  Which as you have admitted, won't sort out those other issues?


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## drdel (Aug 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I can't understand why the UK didn't take up the EU offer of a Canada+ deal that Tusk offered, instead favouring the BRINO abortion that *May preferred.*

Click to expand...

I think you answered your own statement


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## MegaSteve (Aug 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So there is a lot of things that you rightly have identified that we need to address in this country. None of which is the fault of the EU as you say.  So instead of putting time and resources to help address those problems, you think the best approach is to spend an inordinate amount of of time, money and effort to leave the EU??  Which as you have admitted, won't sort out those other issues?
		
Click to expand...

Personal experience tells me Brussels is far from blameless...


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So there is a lot of things that you rightly have identified that we need to address in this country. None of which is the fault of the EU as you say.  So instead of putting time and resources to help address those problems, you think the best approach is to spend an inordinate amount of of time, money and effort to leave the EU??  Which as you have admitted, won't sort out those other issues?
		
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Possibly not but if we put the time and money spent on the EU into our own problems maybe we could solve some or at least make them better.
Our politico over the years ,without asking have put us so deep into this project that itâ€™s almost impossible to get out.
That canâ€™t be good , a club we canâ€™t leave!


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## robinthehood (Aug 2, 2019)

I see Boris water thin majority just got a little thinner. I hope he calls a GE


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I see Boris water thin majority just got a little thinner. I hope he calls a GE
		
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No surprise there, a crooked Tory MP replaced by a Lib Dem.

We just need the Scots Tory leader to sack her 11 rebel MP's now.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I see Boris water thin majority just got a little thinner. I hope he calls a GE
		
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Not sure it told us much we did not know. In that there is a majority of people in some seats that are tired of the extremist cult led politics labour and the Tories are now practicing. The tories still need to woo back the diseffected tory voters who have gone over to the Brexit party to get any sort of majority and Labour are becoming even more inelectable and probably need to get a new leader to stand any chance of getting a majority in the upcoming GE. And brexit is still dominating our political discourse to the detriment of other issues.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			P*ossibly not but if we put the time and money spent on the EU into our own problems maybe we could solve some or at least make them better.*
Our politico over the years ,without asking have put us so deep into this project that itâ€™s almost impossible to get out.
That canâ€™t be good , a club we canâ€™t leave!
		
Click to expand...

If you are saying that we should be spending the time and money now into sorting out our problems instead of spending it on leaving the EU then 100% agree with you.  if you are talking about historical contributions then until the red bus I have never heard any serious politician over the years say that the money we are spending on the EU is stopping us sorting out homelessness, lack of school funding, decline of the manufacturing industy etc etc. Over the year the majority of politicians have thought that that the benfits of being in the EU outweigh any financial contribution we make, and given a free vote now still do.  And there is a process to leave, we are the ones that are making such a hash of it.


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## Hobbit (Aug 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not sure it told us much we did not know. In that there is a majority of people in some seats that are tired of the extremist cult led politics labour and the Tories are now practicing. The tories still need to woo back the diseffected tory voters who have gone over to the Brexit party to get any sort of majority and Labour are becoming even more inelectable and probably need to get a new leader to stand any chance of getting a majority in the upcoming GE. And brexit is still dominating our political discourse to the detriment of other issues.
		
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But if there is a majority of people who are tired of the extremist, cult led politics Labour and the Tories are now practicing, add in The Brexit Party, why did those parties poll over 17,000 votes. And if you throw in the mix the pact that Plaid Cymru and the Greens made with the LibDems not to field candidates to give the LibDems a better chance of putting a Remain MP into Westminster... It could also be said that The Brexit Party split the Tory vote.

I think your assessment is well off the mark. With a form of proportional representation would the representation from that constituency be Remain or Leave?


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## Hobbit (Aug 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			If you are saying that we should be spending the time and money now into sorting out our problems instead of spending it on leaving the EU then 100% agree with you.  if you are talking about historical contributions then until the red bus I have never heard any serious politician over the years say that the money we are spending on the EU is stopping us sorting out homelessness, lack of school funding, decline of the manufacturing industy etc etc. Over the year the majority of politicians have thought that that the benfits of being in the EU outweigh any financial contribution we make, and given a free vote now still do.  And there is a process to leave, we are the ones that are making such a hash of it.
		
Click to expand...

There was plenty said long before the Red Bus appeared, including from previous Prime Ministers. Thatcher argued for it, Blair tried to sell out on it, Mandelson argued very publicly with Blair over it. 

The issue of contributions and rebates has been on the agenda both in the UK and with the EU Commission since the mid 80's, from what I can remember.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 2, 2019)

Using Swinsons Euro election argument, if you add the Con and Brexit part votes then this is a clear manadate to leave..................................


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## Hobbit (Aug 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Using Swinsons Euro election argument, if you add the Con and Brexit part votes then this is a clear manadate to leave..................................


Click to expand...

To be fair, you should only add in about 63% of the Tory votes as Leave but there was over 30% Labour Leave, and 22% LibDem Leave voters.................


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 2, 2019)

Labour guy nearly lost his deposit [In Wales FGS]
Monster Loonies finish in front of UKIP.


----------



## Hobbit (Aug 2, 2019)

Hahahahahahaha.... James Cleverly has just accused the LibDems of dirty dealing with Plaid Cymru and the Greens to win yesterday's by-election. Remind me Mr Cleverly, or not so Cleverly, of the pact the Tories have with the DUP.


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## jp5 (Aug 2, 2019)

The Brexit Party splitting the Conservative vote and letting the LibDems in.

BoJo needs to agree a pact with them or the next GE is going to wipe both of them out despite probably winning the percentage vote 

Expect most of them voted against the chance to reform our electoral system mind, so not too much sympathy.


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## Mudball (Aug 2, 2019)

Govt docs on D+1 day analysis does not make good reading acc to leaked docs from Sky. Thank God it was not on BBC else would have been rubbished as left leaning...


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## Fade and Die (Aug 2, 2019)

jp5 said:



			The Brexit Party splitting the Conservative vote and letting the LibDems in.

BoJo needs to agree a pact with them or the next GE is going to wipe both of them out despite probably winning the percentage vote 

Expect most of them voted against the chance to reform our electoral system mind, so not too much sympathy.
		
Click to expand...

The Tories were stupid enough to try to reinflict the tarry fingered expenses swindler who held the seat until he was booted out in a recall just a couple of months ago. Hopefully his career is now over and his constituency will debar him from standing again â€“ it should also serve as a warning to arsewipe Dominic Grieve, if he imagines his unwilling constituents will nod him through again.


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## Crazyface (Aug 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Labour guy nearly lost his deposit [In Wales FGS]
Monster Loonies finish in front of UKIP. 

Click to expand...

tHAT'S WHAT i GOT FROM IT ALL


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## Hobbit (Aug 2, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The Tories were stupid enough to try to reinflict the tarry fingered expenses swindler who held the seat until he was booted out in a recall just a couple of months ago. Hopefully his career is now over and his constituency will debar him from standing again â€“ it should also serve as a warning to arsewipe Dominic Grieve, if he imagines his unwilling constituents will nod him through again.
		
Click to expand...

Its unbelievable that they were so naive as to put him forward. Shows a lot of stupidity and arrogance. The electorate booted him, and the Tories put him back up...I can't see an ounce of sense in it.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			If you are saying that we should be spending the time and money now into sorting out our problems instead of spending it on leaving the EU then 100% agree with you.  if you are talking about historical contributions then until the red bus I have never heard any serious politician over the years say that the money we are spending on the EU is stopping us sorting out homelessness, lack of school funding, decline of the manufacturing industy etc etc. Over the year the majority of politicians have thought that that the benfits of being in the EU outweigh any financial contribution we make, and given a free vote now still do.  And there is a process to leave, we are the ones that are making such a hash of it.
		
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Spot on our politicians donâ€™t want to leave we know that!
Unfortunately they asked us and we voted to leave.
We had 3 years of a remainer in the PMs job that was a mistake.
Now we have a PM thatâ€™s taking a different path and politicians are still trying to stop it.
The politicians are the problem and we all know they do like spending taxpayers money.


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## Mudball (Aug 2, 2019)

Here is an idea for BoJo... cancel HS2.. use the 85b and fund the 50b WA billion..  use the remianing to fund NHS, School, Social services, duck house etc etc.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 2, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Govt docs on D+1 day analysis does not make good reading acc to leaked docs from Sky. Thank God it was not on BBC else would have been rubbished as left leaning...


View attachment 27882

Click to expand...

I expect that many Remainers will be all over this with their usual fervour. 

While many Leavers will be pointing out that almost every part of that document has the word "may", "possible" or "potential" in each sentence.


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## Mudball (Aug 2, 2019)

Leavers look away.  Very interesting guy, not seen this before.   Respect for him for saying he has changed his mind based on facts. (equally applicable for Remainer turning to Leave if fact based).






Let me get my flameproof before i hit post...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Spot on our politicians donâ€™t want to leave we know that!
Unfortunately they asked us and we voted to leave.
We had 3 years of a remainer in the PMs job that was a mistake.
Now we have a PM thatâ€™s taking a different path *and politicians are still trying to stop it.*
The politicians are the problem and we all know they do like spending taxpayers money.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that politicians are doing *anything *about stopping Brexit at the moment as parliament is in recess.  The only politicians active are BoJo and his buddies - proclaiming to one and all that they will reach out - they will go the extra mile - the extra one thousand miles - to get a deal.  But we will leave on 31/10.  Well that's what BoJo said at Faslane.

Except BoJo won't go one inch towards speaking with the EU unless the EU drop the backstop completely.  No idea if that is all and any backstop - but not having one *at all *seems a rather difficult ask for the EU to accede to - and hardly it would seem to reflect a UK doing _everything possible_ to engage with the EU to seek a compromise towards a deal.  Strikes me that BoJo has set a rather high hurdle to get over for discussions to even start.

Who knows.  Maybe the EU will come to realise that UK leaving without a deal will harm the EU more than it will harm the UK - and that they are wrong in their insistence that maintaining the integrity of the Single Market is more important to the EU and EU business and industry than any economic damage done to the EU.  Once the EU start listening to us they'll get it.

Anyway - I suppose that when we leave with _No Deal _BoJo can claim that he was _willing _to speak with the EU, but they were inflexible in refusing to meet his quite simple pre-condition for the talks to restart.  He might try and persuade us that a _No Deal _departure on 31/10 was therefore the EU's fault (though why 'fault' as it's going to be great is it not?).  But we are not stupid - we know that it *will *be *his *choice if we do.  And more power to his elbow if all is as ticket-boo as he claims is will be.  I'm rather hoping he's right.  But I am not so sure.


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## Dando (Aug 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not sure that politicians are doing *anything *about stopping Brexit at the moment as parliament is in recess.  The only politicians active are BoJo and his buddies - proclaiming to one and all that they will reach out - they will go the extra mile - the extra one thousand miles - to get a deal.  But we will leave on 31/10.  Well that's what BoJo said at Faslane.

Except BoJo won't go one inch towards speaking with the EU unless the EU drop the backstop completely.  No idea if that is all and any backstop - but not having one *at all *seems a rather difficult ask for the EU to accede to - and hardly it would seem to reflect a UK doing _everything possible_ to engage with the EU to seek a compromise towards a deal.  Strikes me that BoJo has set a rather high hurdle to get over for discussions to even start.

Who knows.  Maybe the EU will come to realise that UK leaving without a deal will harm the EU more than it will harm the UK - and that they are wrong in their insistence that maintaining the integrity of the Single Market is more important to the EU and EU business and industry than any economic damage done to the EU.  Once the EU start listening to us they'll get it.

Anyway - I suppose that when we leave with _No Deal _BoJo can claim that he was _willing _to speak with the EU, but they were inflexible in refusing to meet his quite simple pre-condition for the talks to restart.  He might try and persuade us that a _No Deal _departure on 31/10 was therefore the EU's fault (though why 'fault' as it's going to be great is it not?).  But we are not stupid - we know that it *will *be *his *choice if we do.  And more power to his elbow if all is as ticket-boo as he claims is will be.  I'm rather hoping he's right.  But I am not so sure.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m sure your beloved EU have said there is no other deal, no renegotiation and thatâ€™s that but donâ€™t let that stop another of your boring repetitive rants.
You're like a petulant child and it was nice when you were in NZ.
 itâ€™s a shame you didnâ€™t keep your word in leaving this thread alone


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not sure that politicians are doing *anything *about stopping Brexit at the moment as parliament is in recess.  The only politicians active are BoJo and his buddies - proclaiming to one and all that they will reach out - they will go the extra mile - the extra one thousand miles - to get a deal.  But we will leave on 31/10.  Well that's what BoJo said at Faslane.

Except BoJo won't go one inch towards speaking with the EU unless the EU drop the backstop completely.  No idea if that is all and any backstop - but not having one *at all *seems a rather difficult ask for the EU to accede to - and hardly it would seem to reflect a UK doing _everything possible_ to engage with the EU to seek a compromise towards a deal.  Strikes me that BoJo has set a rather high hurdle to get over for discussions to even start.

Who knows.  Maybe the EU will come to realise that UK leaving without a deal will harm the EU more than it will harm the UK - and that they are wrong in their insistence that maintaining the integrity of the Single Market is more important to the EU and EU business and industry than any economic damage done to the EU.  Once the EU start listening to us they'll get it.

Anyway - I suppose that when we leave with _No Deal _BoJo can claim that he was _willing _to speak with the EU, but they were inflexible in refusing to meet his quite simple pre-condition for the talks to restart.  He might try and persuade us that a _No Deal _departure on 31/10 was therefore the EU's fault (though why 'fault' as it's going to be great is it not?).  But we are not stupid - we know that it *will *be *his *choice if we do.  And more power to his elbow if all is as ticket-boo as he claims is will be.  I'm rather hoping he's right.  But I am not so sure.
		
Click to expand...

I would say Jo Swinson of the LD is doing plenty at the moment and is openly defining the will of the people .
Her main aim is to remain.

If the EU had the foresight to concede a couple of Cameronâ€™s points when he asked for some minor concessions this would not be happening.
But they didnâ€™t as they thought it was a bluff.
They are still not conceding anything so itâ€™s a head on battle and I hope Boris has the balls to follow it through.
They will implode without our money as France and Germany will when their taxpayers see the bill for the EU rising.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 2, 2019)

Dando said:



			Iâ€™m sure your beloved EU have said there is no other deal, no renegotiation and thatâ€™s that but donâ€™t let that stop another of your boring repetitive rants.
You're like a petulant child and it was nice when you were in NZ.
itâ€™s a shame you didnâ€™t keep your word in leaving this thread alone
		
Click to expand...

That is a shamefully rude post. 
Seems to be a trend by a small minority leave posters lately.
I hope you will be man enough to apologise to Hogan.


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## Dando (Aug 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is a shamefully rude post. 
Seems to be a trend by a small minority leave posters lately.
I hope you will be man enough to apologise to Hogan.
		
Click to expand...

So Iâ€™m not allowed to say what I think?
to be honest I donâ€™t care if you think itâ€™s rude and I was being polite otherwise I wouldâ€™ve been banned!


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## Dando (Aug 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would say Jo Swinson of the LD is doing plenty at the moment and is openly defining the will of the people .
Her main aim is to remain.

If the EU had the foresight to concede a couple of Cameronâ€™s points when he asked for some minor concessions this would not be happening.
But they didnâ€™t as they thought it was a bluff.
They are still not conceding anything so itâ€™s a head on battle and I hope Boris has the balls to follow it through.
They will implode without our money as France and Germany will when their taxpayers see the bill for the EU rising.
		
Click to expand...

When will people learn that itâ€™s not the EUâ€™s fault! ðŸ˜‚


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## Fade and Die (Aug 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is a shamefully rude post.
Seems to be a trend by a small minority leave posters lately.
I hope you will be man enough to apologise to Hogan.
		
Click to expand...

Whatâ€™s rude about it? All points seem accurate to me. 
Tbh I only ever read the 1st para if Hogan has gone off on one as I find his posts reminiscent of an old auntie that had dementia. Only partially lucid, you got the gist of it in the 1st few words but after that it was just repetitive nonsense. Very sad â˜¹ï¸


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 2, 2019)

Dando said:



			When will people learn that itâ€™s not the EUâ€™s fault! ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Yep, We have made mistakes but this is at least 50% the EUs fault as well!


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is a shamefully rude post. 
Seems to be a trend by a small minority leave posters lately.
I hope you will be man enough to apologise to Hogan.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know why you are making this into a rude leaver thing. I'm a remainer and agree with pretty much everything Dando wrote.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 2, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Leavers look away.  Very interesting guy, not seen this before.   Respect for him for saying he has changed his mind based on facts. (equally applicable for Remainer turning to Leave if fact based).






Let me get my flameproof before i hit post...
		
Click to expand...

If there was a Remainer who had converted to Leave who could make a similarly persuasive argument do you seriously think they would be given the same airtime on James O'Brien's show?


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## Mudball (Aug 2, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			If there was a Remainer who had converted to Leave who could make a similarly persuasive argument do you seriously think they would be given the same airtime on James O'Brien's show?
		
Click to expand...

I am not restricting myself to LBC .. anyone on this forum changed their mind (based on facts) would be good enuf. I am a Remainer and would like us to stay .. equally I am bored and sick of the circus and so want us to leave - I donâ€™t fancy the first year of pain


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## Wolf (Aug 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is a shamefully rude post.
Seems to be a trend by a small minority leave posters lately.
I hope you will be man enough to apologise to Hogan.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing rude in his post at all, SILH posts recently are the same rhetoric over and over again, once you get past the first few sentences you know it's going to repeat itself and ultimately ends up very self serving how he is always right.

It's not just leave posters, I am one who wants to remain but can't stand SILH holier than thou posts gives remainers a bad name. But I'd rather Boris delivered and if we leave with no deal then fair enough it's dragged on long enough time to deliver what the people voted for and we all move on.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Nothing rude in his post at all, SILH posts recently are the same rhetoric over and over again, once you get past the first few sentences you know it's going to repeat itself and ultimately ends up very self serving how he is always right.

It's not just leave posters, I am one who wants to remain but can't stand SILH holier than thou posts gives remainders a bad name. But I'd rather Boris delivered and if we leave with no deal then fair enough it's dragged on long enough time to deliver what the people voted for and we all move on.
		
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^  Like with brass knobs on.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not sure that politicians are doing *anything *about stopping Brexit at the moment as parliament is in recess.  The only politicians active are BoJo and his buddies - proclaiming to one and all that they will reach out - they will go the extra mile - the extra one thousand miles - to get a deal.  But we will leave on 31/10.  Well that's what BoJo said at Faslane.

Except BoJo won't go one inch towards speaking with the EU unless the EU drop the backstop completely.  No idea if that is all and any backstop - but not having one *at all *seems a rather difficult ask for the EU to accede to - and hardly it would seem to reflect a UK doing _everything possible_ to engage with the EU to seek a compromise towards a deal.  Strikes me that BoJo has set a rather high hurdle to get over for discussions to even start.

Who knows.  Maybe the EU will come to realise that UK leaving without a deal will harm the EU more than it will harm the UK - and that they are wrong in their insistence that maintaining the integrity of the Single Market is more important to the EU and EU business and industry than any economic damage done to the EU.  Once the EU start listening to us they'll get it.

Anyway - I suppose that when we leave with _No Deal _BoJo can claim that he was _willing _to speak with the EU, but they were inflexible in refusing to meet his quite simple pre-condition for the talks to restart.  He might try and persuade us that a _No Deal _departure on 31/10 was therefore the EU's fault (though why 'fault' as it's going to be great is it not?).  But we are not stupid - we know that it *will *be *his *choice if we do.  And more power to his elbow if all is as ticket-boo as he claims is will be.  I'm rather hoping he's right.  But I am not so sure.
		
Click to expand...


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 2, 2019)

Assuming that at some point a remain supporting Conservative MP defects and joins the Lib Dems or goes independent does anyone know the time scale needed for this to happen for a GE to occur before we leave by default with no deal? So if an election is called in early October do we simply leave with no deal on 31st October as we have no working government to ask for an extension and we leave by default?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Assuming that at some point a remain supporting Conservative MP defects and joins the Lib Dems or goes independent does anyone know the time scale needed for this to happen for a GE to occur before we leave by default with no deal? So if an election is called in early October do we simply leave with no deal on 31st October as we have no working government to ask for an extension and we leave by default?
		
Click to expand...

It would need the opposition to call a vote of no confidence in the Government and for this to win the vote for an election to be called. In this case and there being no mechanism to request an extension to article 50 then legally we would leave.  Boris could probably do this as well but under the 5 year fixed parliament act I believe would need two thirds of parliament to agree first.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That is a shamefully rude post.
Seems to be a trend by a small minority leave posters lately.
I hope you will be man enough to apologise to Hogan.
		
Click to expand...

Funny how quiet you were when SILH was posting some far more vile abuse about Leavers earlier in the thread.


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## Hobbit (Aug 3, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Assuming that at some point a remain supporting Conservative MP defects and joins the Lib Dems or goes independent does anyone know the time scale needed for this to happen for a GE to occur before we leave by default with no deal? So if an election is called in early October do we simply leave with no deal on 31st October as we have no working government to ask for an extension and we leave by default?
		
Click to expand...

I think there aren't enough sitting days left before the 31st Oct. Even then, in theory, it doesn't need a Tory MP to cross the House for the numbers to shift. As was mooted yesterday in the news, all it needs is for a couple of Sinn Fein MP's to turn up.

Tough one for Sinn Fein. They've always refused to take up their seats in Westminster. And although they're vehemently opposed to a No Deal Brexit, its been said that a hard border could lead to a united Ireland.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think there aren't enough sitting days left before the 31st Oct. Even then, in theory, it doesn't need a Tory MP to cross the House for the numbers to shift. As was mooted yesterday in the news, all it needs is for a couple of Sinn Fein MP's to turn up.

Tough one for Sinn Fein. They've always refused to take up their seats in Westminster. And although they're vehemently opposed to a No Deal Brexit, its been said that a hard border could lead to a united Ireland.
		
Click to expand...

It would be interesting to see how many europhile Tory MPs would vote against their own party to stop a no deal if it meant a Corbyn Government.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It would be interesting to see how many europhile Tory MPs would vote against their own party to stop a no deal if it meant a Corbyn Government.
		
Click to expand...

There will not be a Corbyn government, he has peaked and the Lib Dems will start to hoover up a few disaffected Labour voters now.


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## drdel (Aug 3, 2019)

^^^ I really do hope you're right - a Labour Government with Corbyn at its helm with McDonnell alongside him, will screw the average Brit into the ground while ruining the UK internationally.

Unfortunately the way 'seats' are carved up across the country anything could happen.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			^^^ I really do hope you're right - a* Labour Government with Corbyn at its helm with McDonnell alongside him, will screw the average Brit into the ground while ruining the UK internationally.*

Unfortunately the way 'seats' are carved up across the country anything could happen.
		
Click to expand...

Where as with these intellectual and political heavyweights in charge all will be completely fine 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1157670470038298624


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## IainP (Aug 3, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			There will not be a Corbyn government, he has peaked and the Lib Dems will start to hoover up a few disaffected Labour voters now.
		
Click to expand...

We heard it here first....
...but forgive us for not taking your predictions as gospel! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜




Hacker Khan said:



			I'll bet you a crisp tenner to be donated to the charity of my or your choice (I win, I chose the charity, you donate and vice versa if you win) that TMays deal is voted through before the end of March.
		
Click to expand...


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 3, 2019)

IainP said:



			We heard it here first....
...but forgive us for not taking your predictions as gospel! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

I'll doff my cap at the effort needed to dig that post out from all the pages. There's probably many others where I've took a punt and things have not worked out as predicted. Think I fancied Rory Stewart to be the tory leader at one stage.

Then again, on the bright side, if I am wrong again then the tories will be out of power so every cloud and all that.ðŸ˜‰


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I am not restricting myself to LBC .. anyone on this forum changed their mind (based on facts) would be good enuf. I am a Remainer and would like us to stay .. equally I am bored and sick of the circus and so want us to leave - I donâ€™t fancy the first year of pain
		
Click to expand...

There lies the problem for me.
FACTS I donâ€™t belive anything either side says as a fact anymore.
Politicians are born with the gift of evading the truth.


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## drdel (Aug 4, 2019)

There are now suggestions that Corbyn /Labour might not get behind a Remain ticket!


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			There are now suggestions that Corbyn /Labour might not get behind a Remain ticket!
		
Click to expand...

Heâ€™s never been a remainer and would lose what credibility he has left if he ever did.!


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## MegaSteve (Aug 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			There will not be a Corbyn government, he has peaked and the Lib Dems will start to hoover up a few disaffected Labour voters now.
		
Click to expand...

Not for me... Usually at least one independent, on the ballot paper, worthy of my cross...


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## Hobbit (Aug 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			There will not be a Corbyn government, he has peaked and the Lib Dems will start to hoover up a few disaffected Labour voters now.
		
Click to expand...

As a 60%, 20%, 20%, Labour, Cons, LibDems supporter hell will freeze over before I vote Labour again. In reality, if the loony left and the party became more centrist I'd seriously consider them. Equally, now having Residencia in Spain I can't vote in the UK anyway.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			As a 60%, 20%, 20%, Labour, Cons, LibDems supporter hell will freeze over before I vote Labour again. In reality, if the loony left and the party became more centrist I'd seriously consider them. Equally, now having Residencia in Spain I can't vote in the UK anyway.
		
Click to expand...

The problem remains though, of how many genuine marginal seats are there? Where 'floaters' can have a real influence on the outcome...


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## drdel (Aug 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Heâ€™s never been a remainer and would lose what credibility he has left if he ever did.!
		
Click to expand...

True. However it was only a week or so ago he was saying that in a GE/second referendum Labour'd support Remain


----------



## clubchamp98 (Aug 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			True. However it was only a week or so ago he was saying that in a GE/second referendum Labour'd support Remain
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s why I said â€œWhat credibility he has leftâ€  as I donâ€™t think he has much.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Where as with these intellectual and political heavyweights in charge all will be completely fine 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1157670470038298624

Click to expand...

Quite terrifying that someone that dim can be anywhere near a cabinet position.

On a brighter more positive note
Lord Ashcroft's Conservative Home poll has Scots independence at 52%
Majority of Scots prefer to be in EU than the UK.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			The problem remains though, of how many genuine marginal seats are there? Where 'floaters' can have a real influence on the outcome...
		
Click to expand...

Seems to be a few from this analysis.
_
In 2017 97 seats were won by a margin of 5% or less of votes cast â€“ an increase on the 56 won by this narrow margin in the 2015 Election, and slightly more than the 91 in this category in the 2010 Election. _

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8067


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## MegaSteve (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quite terrifying that someone that dim can be anywhere near a cabinet position.

On a brighter more positive note
Lord Ashcroft's Conservative Home poll has Scots independence at 52%
Majority of Scots prefer to be in EU than the UK.
		
Click to expand...

One day you might even be brave enough to want true independence...  Where you don't feel the need to cling onto the apron strings of others...


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Quite terrifying that someone that dim can be anywhere near a cabinet position.*

On a brighter more positive note
Lord Ashcroft's Conservative Home poll has Scots independence at 52%
Majority of Scots prefer to be in EU than the UK.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is an increasing issue on both sides.  In that the number of people to chose from to be in the cabinet is shrinking as they not only need to be a MP for that party, but they also need to buy into the particular brand of left or right ideology that is taking over both parties at the highest levels. As you are not telling me that Patel, Truss and Raab are the best people for the jobs they have.  And before anyone else says it, yes there are equivalents on the Labour front bench as well.


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## IanM (Aug 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			One day you might even be brave enough to want true independence...  Where you don't feel the need to cling onto the apron strings of others...
		
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Would that position change when the SNP are told the level of EU Subs that the Independent Scotland would need to pay to participate?


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## MegaSteve (Aug 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seems to be a few from this analysis.

_In 2017 97 seats were won by a margin of 5% or less of votes cast â€“ an increase on the 56 won by this narrow margin in the 2015 Election, and slightly more than the 91 in this category in the 2010 Election. _

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8067

Click to expand...

iirc It was, in general, a low turnout in 2017 which might possibly be skewing the statistics... Plus, if others ballot papers were devoid of any independent candidates (as mine was) then that might also have some influence on statistics...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			One day you might even be brave enough to want true independence...  Where you don't feel the need to cling onto the apron strings of others...
		
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Do you mean countries like France, Germany, Italy, Holland Spain etc etc. 
IMO it would be very foolish for a small nation to be isolated without allies in today's world


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## MegaSteve (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you mean countries like France, Germany, Italy, Holland Spain etc etc. 
IMO it would be very foolish for a small nation to be isolated without allies in today's world
		
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The only response Brussels tolerates from "small nations" is...
How high?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			The only response Brussels tolerates from "small nations" is...
How high?
		
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How high what


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



*iirc It was, in general, a low turnout in 2017 which might possibly be skewing the statistics*... Plus, if others ballot papers were devoid of any independent candidates (as mine was) then that might also have some influence on statistics...
		
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_Turnout at the 2017 General Election was 68.8% and was the fourth successive election where turnout increased. _

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8060#fullreport


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## drdel (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you mean countries like France, Germany, Italy, Holland Spain etc etc. 
IMO it would be very foolish for a small nation to be isolated without allies in today's world
		
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Just to be clear are you saying Scotland would much rather pay to be allied (even submissive) to any other group of nations than the UK?


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## Grant85 (Aug 5, 2019)

It seems increasingly likely we are headed towards a General Election. 

Certainly the new Johnson administration trying to get domestic policy back on the agenda is surely a signal that they feel they will have to pull the trigger on an election as the numbers in parliament just don't allow any wriggle room. They are no doubt completely focused on beating Corbyn and feel that they can do that with remain vote splitting between Labour / Libs / SNP / Greens etc. 

I listened to Heidi Allan on a podcast last week (a former Tory, Change UK MP) who is an independent MP. She is trying to pull together a remain alliance in England & Wales. Which successfully won the Brecon by-election last week - despite the Tories + Brexit Party having mroe votes than the Lib Dems (with Plaid & Greens standing aside). 

I'd imagine the Tories and Brexit party might try something similar (will probably need to) - although possibly going to be tough given the Brexit party don't have any MPs and the Tories need desperately to hold onto all seats they have and gain a few Labour. Maybe the Tories would stand aside in a few Labour held North of England seats to give the Brexit Party a reasonably clear run to get a couple of MPs. But they would then have to give up standing in all other current Tory seats and target seats? Going to be tough for someone with the vanity and arrogance of Farage to agree to that. 

On the other side, a remain alliance would require a lot of work as there will be a lot more people around the table and they will probably have to stand aside in constituencies with Pro-Remain Labour or Tories and not field any candidate for Libs, Green or Plaid. 
That will be very tough to do in Lab / Tory marginals where the Libs or Greens have almost no support and it may not be 100% clear who would benefit from standing aside. 

Ultimately, without Labour, their best hope is likely stopping a Tory majority, rather than anything that could really deliver anything effective.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			Just to be clear are you saying Scotland would much rather pay to be allied (even submissive) to any other group of nations than the UK?
		
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Aye, just like you have been for the last 40 odd years.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 5, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



_Turnout at the 2017 General Election was 68.8% and was the fourth successive election where turnout increased. _

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8060#fullreport

Click to expand...

Oki dokey... Can't argue with Google ðŸ˜‰... Living in a constituency where there will only ever be one outcome probably has me down for a skewed opinion ðŸ˜•...


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 5, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			It seems increasingly likely we are headed towards a General Election. 

Certainly the new Johnson administration trying to get domestic policy back on the agenda is surely a signal that they feel they will have to pull the trigger on an election as the numbers in parliament just don't allow any wriggle room. They are no doubt completely focused on beating Corbyn and feel that they can do that with remain vote splitting between Labour / Libs / SNP / Greens etc. 

I listened to Heidi Allan on a podcast last week (a former Tory, Change UK MP) who is an independent MP. She is trying to pull together a remain alliance in England & Wales. Which successfully won the Brecon by-election last week - despite the Tories + Brexit Party having mroe votes than the Lib Dems (with Plaid & Greens standing aside). 

I'd imagine the Tories and Brexit party might try something similar (will probably need to) - although possibly going to be tough given the Brexit party don't have any MPs and the Tories need desperately to hold onto all seats they have and gain a few Labour. Maybe the Tories would stand aside in a few Labour held North of England seats to give the Brexit Party a reasonably clear run to get a couple of MPs. But they would then have to give up standing in all other current Tory seats and target seats? Going to be tough for someone with the vanity and arrogance of Farage to agree to that. 

On the other side, a remain alliance would require a lot of work as there will be a lot more people around the table and they will probably have to stand aside in constituencies with Pro-Remain Labour or Tories and not field any candidate for Libs, Green or Plaid. 
That will be very tough to do in Lab / Tory marginals where the Libs or Greens have almost no support and it may not be 100% clear who would benefit from standing aside. 

Ultimately, without Labour, their best hope is likely stopping a Tory majority, rather than anything that could really deliver anything effective.
		
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This is spot on I think.
But itâ€™s everything I hate about politics!
Doing deals with other parties just to get your nose in the trough.
I canâ€™t see to many greens voting LD in a GE maybe a one off by election but not a GE.
If you can win the argument with your policies you should not be standing aside for someone else.
Some of the decisions the LDs made in coalition wonâ€™t sit well with Green Party voters.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 5, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			It seems increasingly likely we are headed towards a General Election.

Certainly the new Johnson administration trying to get domestic policy back on the agenda is surely a signal that they feel they will have to pull the trigger on an election as the numbers in parliament just don't allow any wriggle room. They are no doubt completely focused on beating Corbyn and feel that they can do that with remain vote splitting between Labour / Libs / SNP / Greens etc.

I listened to Heidi Allan on a podcast last week (a former Tory, Change UK MP) who is an independent MP. She is trying to pull together a remain alliance in England & Wales. Which successfully won the Brecon by-election last week - despite the Tories + Brexit Party having mroe votes than the Lib Dems (with Plaid & Greens standing aside).

I'd imagine the Tories and Brexit party might try something similar (will probably need to) - although possibly going to be tough given the Brexit party don't have any MPs and the Tories need desperately to hold onto all seats they have and gain a few Labour. Maybe the Tories would stand aside in a few Labour held North of England seats to give the Brexit Party a reasonably clear run to get a couple of MPs. But they would then have to give up standing in all other current Tory seats and target seats? Going to be tough for someone with the vanity and arrogance of Farage to agree to that.

On the other side, a remain alliance would require a lot of work as there will be a lot more people around the table and they will probably have to stand aside in constituencies with Pro-Remain Labour or Tories and not field any candidate for Libs, Green or Plaid.
That will be very tough to do in Lab / Tory marginals where the Libs or Greens have almost no support and it may not be 100% clear who would benefit from standing aside.

Ultimately, without Labour, their best hope is likely stopping a Tory majority, rather than anything that could really deliver anything effective.
		
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Jo Swinson says she will work with Plaid but not the SNP. Weird rationale of the way an Alliance works there.
Bet she changes her mind when the SNP deliver 50 MP's at the next election.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye, just like you have been for the last 40 odd years.

Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s why we want out! But you seem to want another higher authority to boss you about.


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## drdel (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye, just like you have been for the last 40 odd years.

Click to expand...

Yes the UK has had to submit to the increasingly undemocratic processes evolving in Brussels as its moves from the EEC towards federalism. Which is may be why the vote went the way it did.

Rather than having a dig I was hoping for a bit more of an explanation of how you really see it playing out if you got what you want.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye, just like you have been for the last 40 odd years.

Click to expand...

Travesty it took so long for the people to given the opportunity to show their disdain for Brussels...


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## PieMan (Aug 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			Yes the UK has had to submit to the increasingly undemocratic processes evolving in Brussels as its moves from the EEC towards federalism. Which is may be why the vote went the way it did.

Rather than having a dig I was hoping for a bit more of an explanation of how you really see it playing out if you got what you want.
		
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Oh and don't forget to having been a significant contributor to EU budget whilst the majority of these new members have been recipients!! ðŸ˜‰


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## Grant85 (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jo Swinson says she will work with Plaid but not the SNP. Weird rationale of the way an Alliance works there.
Bet she changes her mind when the SNP deliver 50 MP's at the next election.

Click to expand...

Yes - it does seem pretty petty, but also is making the point that. i.e. we really don't want Scottish independence (as it is actually possible) but Welsh independence is so remote that we don't care about it too much. 

But I'm not sure what an SNP / Lib Dems alliance could deliver in Scotland. The SNP and LD voters are not closely enough aligned for one to vote for the other as a second preference. 
i.e. if Libs gave SNP a clear run in some Aberdeenshire seats to gain against the Tories - I doubt many of those LD votes would go to the SNP particularly. They'd more likely vote for the Tories. 

In reality, a strong LD showing in Gordon or Moray is needed to help the SNP beat the Tories. 

Lib Dems only have 4 Scottish seats and likely that any targets they have will be current SNP held seats.


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## Grant85 (Aug 5, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is spot on I think.
But itâ€™s everything I hate about politics!
Doing deals with other parties just to get your nose in the trough.
I canâ€™t see to many greens voting LD in a GE maybe a one off by election but not a GE.
If you can win the argument with your policies you should not be standing aside for someone else.
Some of the decisions the LDs made in coalition wonâ€™t sit well with Green Party voters.
		
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Ultimately it's a FPTP system and there's no prizes for having 400 second places out of 650 seats. 

Perhaps if there was such clever manipulation with 4 or 5 parties playing tactics against each other to effectively ensure no majority then this would lead to a change in the system and we'd see a more continental approach with 4 or 5 parties all combining and having more of a representative parliament that would lead to compromise in law making.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 5, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Yes - it does seem pretty petty, but also is making the point that. i.e. we really don't want Scottish independence (as it is actually possible) but Welsh independence is so remote that we don't care about it too much.

But I'm not sure what an SNP / Lib Dems alliance could deliver in Scotland. The SNP and LD voters are not closely enough aligned for one to vote for the other as a second preference.
i.e. if Libs gave SNP a clear run in some Aberdeenshire seats to gain against the Tories - I doubt many of those LD votes would go to the SNP particularly. They'd more likely vote for the Tories.

In reality, a strong LD showing in Gordon or Moray is needed to help the SNP beat the Tories.

Lib Dems only have 4 Scottish seats and likely that any targets they have will be current SNP held seats.
		
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Predictions are that the Lib Dems would hold their four seats {regardless of any deal} and the other seats would go to the SNP.


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## Grant85 (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Predictions are that the Lib Dems would hold their four seats {regardless of any deal} and the other seats would go to the SNP.
		
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I think that's fair analysis - although always the prospect of the SNP getting crowded out a bit in a Westminster election given national coverage and that they will have no prospect of forming a government. 

But ultimately the arithmetic is that the SNP will likely be a block of 35 to 50 anti Tory, anti Brexit MPs who will vote rigidly in these interests.


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## Mudball (Aug 5, 2019)

From Twitter.. waiting to be rubbished by the leavers with comments like - if they donâ€™t want our money then we donâ€™t want them ..

â€”xxâ€”
Quite a story from the FT. Performers at the Edinburgh International Festival are refusing to be paid in sterling because theyâ€™re so worried about it mainting its value. â€œNo-one wants to do deals in sterling anymoreâ€ its Director says.

Once the global reserve currency and now...


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## MegaSteve (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How high what 

Click to expand...


When Brussels says jump!


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## MegaSteve (Aug 5, 2019)

Mudball said:



			From Twitter.. waiting to be rubbished by the leavers with comments like - if they donâ€™t want our money then we donâ€™t want them ..

â€”xxâ€”
Quite a story from the FT. Performers at the Edinburgh International Festival are refusing to be paid in sterling because theyâ€™re so worried about it mainting its value. â€œNo-one wants to do deals in sterling anymoreâ€ its Director says.

Once the global reserve currency and now...
		
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London, as I suspect Edinburgh is as well, Is currently rammed with tourists probably due to the exchange rate being in visitors favour... Swings 'n roundabouts... Back in the day when I worked for a company that got most of its business from across the pond... When the rate was poor it was an opportunity to fill our boots with OT... Happy daysðŸ‘


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			London, as I suspect Edinburgh is as well, Is currently rammed with tourists probably due to the exchange rate being in visitors favour... Swings 'n roundabouts... Back in the day when I worked for a company that got most of its business from across the pond... When the rate was poor it was an opportunity to fill our boots with OT... Happy daysðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

So when the pound rises...if it ever will again.......does that mean more bad news for the UK
I am certain that Leavers were promoting the value of the pound against expected falls after the 2016 vote.
You really can't have it both ways.
My worry is, how low will it fall if we actually do leave the EU


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## MegaSteve (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So when the pound rises...if it ever will again.......does that mean more bad news for the UK
I am certain that Leavers were promoting the value of the pound against expected falls after the 2016 vote.
You really can't have it both ways.
My worry is, how low will it fall if we actually do leave the EU

Click to expand...

As you well know the exchange rate rises and falls all the time... Never known it any different... And it can often be for no obvious reason other than 'dark forces' playing silly buggers...


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## Hobbit (Aug 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			As you well know the exchange rate rises and falls all the time... Never known it any different... And it can often be for no obvious reason other than 'dark forces' playing silly buggers...
		
Click to expand...

I wonder if the ECB has been buying and selling Sterling?


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## drdel (Aug 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I wonder if the ECB has been buying and selling Sterling?
		
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Its gone back to Quantitative Easing so they're too busy issuing 'bonds' to keep the EU/euro afloat hoping Germany's shrinking growth will not stop it standing behind the debt.


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## Hobbit (Aug 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its gone back to Quantitative Easing so they're too busy issuing 'bonds' to keep the EU/euro afloat hoping Germany's shrinking growth will not stop it standing behind the debt.
		
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Crikey, that didn't take long. It was only in December they stopped. I know a lot of junk bonds were due to mature. I guess they've been buying them up to allow national banks to normalise their balance sheets.


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its gone back to Quantitative Easing so they're too busy issuing 'bonds' to keep the EU/euro afloat hoping Germany's shrinking growth will not stop it standing behind the debt.
		
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Have they?

While they have certainly stated that they are prepared 'to adjust all of its instruments as appropriate', that only indicates they are prepared to reintroduce QE, not that they have done so.

Got a link indicating that *they have*? Or is your post simply anti-Euro/EU BS?


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## Mudball (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So when the pound rises...if it ever will again.......does that mean more bad news for the UK
I am certain that Leavers were promoting the value of the pound against expected falls after the 2016 vote.
You really can't have it both ways.
My worry is, how low will it fall if we actually do leave the EU

Click to expand...

When BoJo said the Tory party is the Party to bring parity... he meant Â£ to $ parity, and I must say that he is doing a very good job. 

As someone who works for a global firm which is HQed in the US..this has not been a good fiscal. Already 2020 targets are up 20% even if we keep sales flat


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## drdel (Aug 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Have they?

While they have certainly stated that they are prepared 'to adjust all of its instruments as appropriate', that only indicates they are prepared to reintroduce QE, not that they have done so.

Got a link indicating that *they have*? Or is your post simply anti-Euro/EU BS? 

Click to expand...

I'm so sorry for my lack of precision. My post was (as most of mine are) a somewhat tongue-in-cheek response to Hobbits. The ECB declared its readiness in June to reintroduce QE etc in the Autumn; which in my book coincides with the UK's plan to exit. Since June the economic landscape from Germany, France and the bloc has, in general, looked more bumpy. As a consequence of this and the EU's ongoing Trump trade debacle I'd anticipate that its a course they will more than likely follow under Lagarde and French pressure (especially with Macron trying buy himself out of the French domestic unrest).

For the record I'm not Anti_euro or the EU and neither am I the purveyor of BS; my stance in favour of Brexit is simply that the UK needs to retain its own currency and self governance: specifically the EU's federalist goals would be extremely bad for the UK going forward. The EU Parliament is largely ignored by Brussels which means the EU has used the UK as a cash-cow for decades and the revived and enhanced federalist policy would see any UK investment and growth dragged down by the mountain of debt and commitments to being the major supplier of defence capability and security.

You can find plenty of material on the points I have raised if you'd care to spend a few seconds in research rather than rush to find  a put-down quip (which appears to me to be your characteristic style). Here's one specific source; https://www.neweurope.eu/article/ecb-prepares-for-a-second-wave-of-quantitative-easing/


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 5, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Ultimately it's a FPTP system and there's no prizes for having 400 second places out of 650 seats. 

Perhaps if there was such clever manipulation with 4 or 5 parties playing tactics against each other to effectively ensure no majority then this would lead to a change in the system and we'd see a more continental approach with 4 or 5 parties all combining and having more of a representative parliament that would lead to compromise in law making.
		
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Yes but these parties that are doing deals all over the place are skewering the result .
Someone who votes green may not vote LD because of their record in coalition.
This could lead to a party winning by default, thatâ€™s not good.
Itâ€™s a pity they canâ€™t agree more cross party on important things like the NHS instead of behaving like a bunch of schoolchildren in parliament.
Itâ€™s all a game to them a well paid game at that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 5, 2019)

The nights are drawing in, soon be Halloween.

Have the government started plans for issuing ration books ?
Remember to stock up your freezer, tins cupboard and stockpile toilet/kitchen rolls for Christmas.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The nights are drawing in, soon be Halloween.

Have the government started plans for issuing ration books ?
Remember to stock up your freezer, tins cupboard and stockpile toilet/kitchen rolls for Christmas.
		
Click to expand...

Twazzock.


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm so sorry for my lack of precision...
		
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Thanks for the admission that it was BS!


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## Dando (Aug 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twazzock.
		
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Just like SILH and the crap he comes out with.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 6, 2019)

Dando said:



			Just like SILH and the crap he comes out with.
		
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You know you can just ignore someone (hover over their name and then just select 'ignore') , especially if they did not even make the comment you are posting about, if they upset you.  There's no need to keep yourself in a constant state of angryness.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You know you can just ignore someone (hover over their name and then just select 'ignore') , especially if they did not even make the comment you are posting about, if they upset you.  There's no need to keep yourself in a constant state of angryness.
		
Click to expand...

I might be wrong but I've heard that you don't have to read every post written on the forum. You can simply scroll past the ones by people that annoy you.

What does the ignore function do? Does it simply not show posts by that person? And what happens if someone you aren't ignoring quotes someone you are ignoring, do you see the quote?


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 6, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I might be wrong but I've heard that you don't have to read every post written on the forum. You can simply scroll past the ones by people that annoy you.

What does the ignore function do? Does it simply not show posts by that person? And what happens if someone you aren't ignoring quotes someone you are ignoring, do you see the quote?
		
Click to expand...

You donâ€™t see the post, you donâ€™t see any quotes but unfortunately as some of the ones youâ€™d like to ignore monopolise the thread you lose the flow or context.


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## drdel (Aug 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Thanks for the admission that it was BS!
		
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If it makes you happy - have at it! But really ?


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## Foxholer (Aug 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			... But really ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, Really!

Kindly desist from the BS in your otherwise generally insightful contributions!


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## Pathetic Shark (Aug 6, 2019)

Ah the Lib Dems, the party that just keep on giving.   One of their MPs was just on the radio stating that Boris Johnson could not ignore a vote of no confidence as that would be undemocratic.

And your party's stance on the vote to leave the EU is what exactly???


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## Dando (Aug 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You know you can just ignore someone (hover over their name and then just select 'ignore') , especially if they did not even make the comment you are posting about, if they upset you.  There's no need to keep yourself in a constant state of angryness.
		
Click to expand...

I like to read what utter drivel they are coming out with!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 6, 2019)

Gove would make a truly awful poker player.

Bottom lip quivering as he lets fly at the EU's natural assumption that the UK will leave with no deal. [so no more talks]
Bumping down the 'strong and stable' shoogly road now.

It would be funny if it was not so tragic.


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## drdel (Aug 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yes, Really!

Kindly desist from the BS in your otherwise generally insightful contributions!
		
Click to expand...

Since it was only you who defined the comments as BS I shall envoke my democratic right to post what I like.


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## drdel (Aug 6, 2019)

I see that the Swiss are also meeting with stonewalling tactics from the EU as they try and thrash out their 4 year long Treaty negotiations.


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## Mudball (Aug 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Gove would make a truly awful poker player.

Bottom lip quivering as he lets fly at the EU's natural assumption that the UK will leave with no deal. [so no more talks]
Bumping down the 'strong and stable' shoogly road now.

It would be funny if it was not so tragic.
		
Click to expand...


Ahh.. Gove does a 'Brexit means Brexit' speech... blaming EU for not moving while saying the UK has laid out a clear redline. 
.. but 'We are ready to provide all support'... pot calling kettle


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## Hobbit (Aug 6, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Ahh.. Gove does a 'Brexit means Brexit' speech... blaming EU for not moving while saying the UK has laid out a clear redline.
.. but 'We are ready to provide all support'... pot calling kettle
		
Click to expand...

Thought it an interesting piece on the Beeb site today about the EU commission called in the diplomats from the EU27 and told them that the EU will not budge on the WA. I thought it was the EU27 that tell the EU Commission what they want, not the other way round?? Semantics maybe but it just smacked of the very federalism that so many are against.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Gove would make a truly awful poker player.

Bottom lip quivering as he lets fly at the EU's natural assumption that the UK will leave with no deal. [so no more talks]
Bumping down the 'strong and stable' shoogly road now.

It would be funny if it was not so tragic.
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't seem to be any other option other than no deal now. The EU have said that the WA is the only one on offer. Our MPs have rejected the WA three times. The EU say that the WA can't be changed or renegotiated. Unless our MPs change their minds and pass the WA or the EU change their mind about renegotiating then that just leaves no deal. 

And what would be the point of getting another extension from the EU as many MPs want? That would simply be kicking the already very dented can further down the road for very little or no gain.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Doesn't seem to be any other option other than no deal now. The EU have said that the WA is the only one on offer. Our MPs have rejected the WA three times. The EU say that the WA can't be changed or renegotiated. Unless our MPs change their minds and pass the WA or the EU change their mind about renegotiating then that just leaves no deal.

And what would be the point of getting another extension from the EU as many MPs want? That would simply be kicking the already very dented can further down the road for very little or no gain.
		
Click to expand...

The WA had to be verified by the EU 27 and the UK Parliament to be put into effect.   If the EU 27 would have refused to accept it would the EU Commission tell them it can not be reopened?


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 6, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Doesn't seem to be any other option other than no deal now. The EU have said that the WA is the only one on offer. Our MPs have rejected the WA three times. The EU say that the WA can't be changed or renegotiated. Unless our MPs change their minds and pass the WA or the EU change their mind about renegotiating then that just leaves no deal.

And what would be the point of getting another extension from the EU as many MPs want? That would simply be kicking the already very dented can further down the road for very little or no gain.
		
Click to expand...

I suppose as we have reached an impasse then in the name of democracy we must fall back to the options on the ballot paper as that is what the public were voting on. Do we stay which was on and was an option. Or do we leave with a no deal that was not.


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## Hobbit (Aug 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suppose as we have reached an impasse then in the name of democracy we must fall back to the options on the ballot paper as that is what the public were voting on. Do we stay which was on and was an option. Or do we leave with a no deal that was not.  

Click to expand...

Bet you pull the wings of flies too... big tease


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## SocketRocket (Aug 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suppose as we have reached an impasse then in the name of democracy we must fall back to the options on the ballot paper as that is what the public were voting on. Do we stay which was on and was an option. Or do we leave with a no deal that was not.  

Click to expand...

Yes it was.  If a deal wasn't mentioned then it wasn't a requirement. ðŸ¤”


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suppose as we have reached an impasse then in the name of democracy we must fall back to the options on the ballot paper as that is what the public were voting on. Do we stay which was on and was an option. Or do we leave with a no deal that was not.  

Click to expand...

Would be a very bold move from Parliament to revoke Article 50 and for us to remain in the EU and one that if it had been taken 2 years ago I would have fully supported.

Although, as far as I am aware as I didn't actually see the ballot paper, the options on the ballot paper were to remain in the EU or to leave the EU. I don't believe that leaving with a deal was on the ballot paper. Which means that if we fall back on your suggestion we'll be leaving with no deal, as leave was on the ballot paper and won the vote.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suppose as we have reached an impasse then in the name of democracy we must fall back to the options on the ballot paper as that is what the public were voting on. Do we stay which was on and was an option. Or do we leave with a no deal that was not.  

Click to expand...

If you take the last seven words from your post it will be factually correct.
And it was an option which you omitted.


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## Hobbit (Aug 6, 2019)

A question; with all this can leave without a deal by running the clock down, can the Cabinet decide not to run the clock down and just decide to leave tomorrow? As there looks like there's going to be some watershed discussions at the G7 meeting at the end of the month, and some political journo's saying if there's no movement by then its a definite out, why not mid Sept?

Equally, providing there is a clear intent to create an agreement, WTO has the the mechanism to allow an agreement in principle/transition if both parties agree in good faith. Leave can happen at the end of Oct without an *agreed* deal but at least the principle in place... a gentler let down than an abrupt No Deal leave.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A question; with all this can leave without a deal by running the clock down, can the Cabinet decide not to run the clock down and just decide to leave tomorrow? As there looks like there's going to be some watershed discussions at the G7 meeting at the end of the month, and some political journo's saying if there's no movement by then its a definite out, why not mid Sept?

Equally, providing there is a clear intent to create an agreement, WTO has the the mechanism to allow an agreement in principle/transition if both parties agree in good faith. Leave can happen at the end of Oct without an *agreed* deal but at least the principle in place... a gentler let down than an abrupt No Deal leave.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds plausible and would be very desirable.  Though I think that if this is in respect of falling back on GATT Article 24 (not too much heard about that these days from it's previous proponents) the fly in your ointment may be that there has to be more than _intent _in respect of reaching an agreement for Article 24 to apply - there actually has to be a framework agreement, plus a plan and a timescale agreed with the EU for reaching any such agreement.

Para 7(b) of the Article quoted below (which refers to that paragraph so beloved of Johnson, Rees-Mogg and co) explains why that is necessary.  Note also that *this *states that the UK and the EU *must *take on board what the rest of the WTO recommend - the UK and the EU are _bound _by the WTO rules in respect of what they can do.

_If, after having studied the plan and schedule included in an interim agreement referred to in paragraph 5 in consultation with the parties to that agreement and taking due account of the information made available in accordance with the provisions of subparagraph (a), the CONTRACTING PARTIES find that such agreement is not likely to result in the formation of a customs union or of a free-trade area within the period contemplated by the parties to the agreement or that such period is not a reasonable one, *the CONTRACTING PARTIES shall make recommendations to the parties to the agreement. The parties shall not maintain or put into force, as the case may be, such agreement if they are not prepared to modify it in accordance with these recommendations. *_

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/region_e/region_art24_e.htm

But hey - who knows what will happen on 1st November.  It won't be Armageddon as the EU won't allow it to be - to protect their member countries and businesses - but whatever they do to mitigate risks and issues on 1st Nov, and the weeks and months following, it will be under their control.


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## jp5 (Aug 7, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1158876706708643840


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## robinthehood (Aug 7, 2019)

jp5 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1158876706708643840

Click to expand...

Yep and come up with a catchy tag line like project fear and crack on.


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## Foxholer (Aug 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A question; with all this can leave without a deal by running the clock down, can the Cabinet decide not to run the clock down and just decide to leave tomorrow? As there looks like there's going to be some watershed discussions at the G7 meeting at the end of the month, and some political journo's saying if there's no movement by then its a definite out, why not mid Sept?
...
		
Click to expand...

No they cannot!

The effect of the ruling(s) from the Gina Miller case(s) mean that *Parliament* must approve changs to laws that *Parliament* has made! That principle is now part of UK's constitution!


Hobbit said:



			...
Equally, providing there is a clear intent to create an agreement, WTO has the the mechanism to allow an agreement in principle/transition if both parties agree in good faith. Leave can happen at the end of Oct without an *agreed* deal but at least the principle in place... a gentler let down than an abrupt No Deal leave.
		
Click to expand...

As far as I understand, it's only if the agreement is virtually signed (i.e. agreed, but awaiting signatures ot the like) that that WTO clause can apply.

I can't see that being the case as there is even an impasse about negotiations!

To me, a 'no deal' withdrawal is the most likely result.

And the EU Commission is likely to stall on any subsequent negotiations, irrespective of any action, such as setting tarrifs on EU sources product to zero, the UK Government takes.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 7, 2019)

good read :
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/why-a-no-deal-brexit-is-now-overwhelmingly-likely/


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sounds plausible and would be very desirable.  Though I think that if this is in respect of falling back on GATT Article 24 (not too much heard about that these days from it's previous proponents) the fly in your ointment may be that there has to be more than _intent _in respect of reaching an agreement for Article 24 to apply - there actually has to be a framework agreement, plus a plan and a timescale agreed with the EU for reaching any such agreement.

Para 7(b) of the Article quoted below (which refers to that paragraph so beloved of Johnson, Rees-Mogg and co) explains why that is necessary.  Note also that *this *states that the UK and the EU *must *take on board what the rest of the WTO recommend - the UK and the EU are _bound _by the WTO rules in respect of what they can do.

_If, after having studied the plan and schedule included in an interim agreement referred to in paragraph 5 in consultation with the parties to that agreement and taking due account of the information made available in accordance with the provisions of subparagraph (a), the CONTRACTING PARTIES find that such agreement is not likely to result in the formation of a customs union or of a free-trade area within the period contemplated by the parties to the agreement or that such period is not a reasonable one, *the CONTRACTING PARTIES shall make recommendations to the parties to the agreement. The parties shall not maintain or put into force, as the case may be, such agreement if they are not prepared to modify it in accordance with these recommendations. *_

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/region_e/region_art24_e.htm

But hey - who knows what will happen on 1st November.  It won't be Armageddon as the EU won't allow it to be - to protect their member countries and businesses - but whatever they do to mitigate risks and issues on 1st Nov, and the weeks and months following, it will be under their control.
		
Click to expand...

How will it be under their control? Are you party to their planning? Bear in mind trade will be going both ways, do you think the EU will be controlling U.K. Customs?

You really are totally blinkered and deluded arenâ€™t you, and talking utter tosh! The EU will be in control of their side of things, and if they were in control of things in the U.K. Mayâ€™s deal would have gone through. Pray tell why hasnâ€™t it gone through if they are in control? Ah yes, theyâ€™re not in control of what goes on in the U.K.

You talk utter rollox when you shift from the facts, for example Gatt24, onto opinion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No they cannot!

The effect of the ruling(s) from the Gina Miller case(s) mean that *Parliament* must approve changs to laws that *Parliament* has made! That principle is now part of UK's constitution!

As far as I understand, it's only if the agreement is virtually signed (i.e. agreed, but awaiting signatures ot the like) that that WTO clause can apply.

I can't see that being the case as there is even an impasse about negotiations!

To me, a 'no deal' withdrawal is the most likely result.

And the EU Commission is likely to stall on any subsequent negotiations, irrespective of any action, such as setting tarrifs on EU sources product to zero, the UK Government takes.
		
Click to expand...

Correct (I believe) on the agreement as I posted referencing para 7(b) of GATT Article 24.  This makes it clear that there has to plan, timescales and sufficient detail of an agreement in place for the _Contracting Parties _of the WTO to review to see if they are OK with it.  If the detail isn't there they will request that detail or come up with what the UK and the EU would have to include in it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			How will it be under their control? Are you party to their planning? Bear in mind trade will be going both ways, do you think the EU will be controlling U.K. Customs?

You really are totally blinkered and deluded arenâ€™t you, and talking utter tosh! The EU will be in control of their side of things, and if they were in control of things in the U.K. Mayâ€™s deal would have gone through. Pray tell why hasnâ€™t it gone through if they are in control? Ah yes, theyâ€™re not in control of what goes on in the U.K.

You talk utter rollox when you shift from the facts, for example Gatt24, onto opinion.
		
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On the control - in accordance with the higlighted text of para 7(b) I am saying that what is in the EU/UK agreement could be under control of the WTO Contracting parties (I am not saying under the control of the EU)

And on things under control of the EU - I am simply saying that anything that the EU puts in place *unilaterally* to ease flow of trade and business between the EU and the UK, and to minimise any impact of a _No Deal _on the EU - they can unilaterally take away when they have sorted things out to their own satisfaction.

I hear some talking up what the EU are currently doing unilaterally as if they are entering into deals with the UK.  Now there well may be areas where micro-deals are put in place.  But I also understand that some of the measures that the EU are putting in place are measures for the benefit of EU business and trade - and therefore they are measures that the EU can unilaterally change or remove without recourse to the UK or need to consider the impact on UK business.

From a 25th March Press release in advance of 29/03.

https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-1813_en.htm

*Contingency and preparedness legislative measures*

_To date, the Commission has tabled 19 legislative proposals. 17 proposals have been adopted or agreed by the European Parliament and the Council. Formal adoption of all those files by the European Parliament and Council is currently taking place. Two proposals are to be finalised by the two co-legislators in due course._

_As outlined in the Commission's Brexit Preparedness Communications, the EU's contingency measures will not â€“ and cannot â€“ mitigate the overall impact of a "no-deal" scenario, nor do they in any way compensate for the lack of preparedness or replicate the full benefits of EU membership or the favourable terms of any transition period, as provided for in the Withdrawal Agreement. T*hese proposals are temporary in nature, limited in scope and will be adopted unilaterally by the EU. *T*hey are not â€œmini-dealsâ€ and have not been negotiated with the UK. *_


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - I am simply saying that anything that the EU puts in place *unilaterally* to ease flow of trade and business between the EU and the UK, and to minimise any impact of a _No Deal _on the EU - they can unilaterally take away when they have sorted things out to their own satisfaction.

I hear some talking up what the EU are currently doing unilaterally as if they are entering into deals with the UK.  Now there well may be areas where micro-deals are put in place.  But I also understand that some of the measures that the EU are putting in place are measures for the benefit of EU business and trade - and therefore they are measures that the EU can unilaterally change or remove without recourse to the UK or need to consider the impact on UK business.

From a 25th March Press release in advance of 29/03.

https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-1813_en.htm

*Contingency and preparedness legislative measures*

_To date, the Commission has tabled 19 legislative proposals. 17 proposals have been adopted or agreed by the European Parliament and the Council. Formal adoption of all those files by the European Parliament and Council is currently taking place. Two proposals are to be finalised by the two co-legislators in due course._

_As outlined in the Commission's Brexit Preparedness Communications, the EU's contingency measures will not â€“ and cannot â€“ mitigate the overall impact of a "no-deal" scenario, nor do they in any way compensate for the lack of preparedness or replicate the full benefits of EU membership or the favourable terms of any transition period, as provided for in the Withdrawal Agreement. T*hese proposals are temporary in nature, limited in scope and will be adopted unilaterally by the EU. *T*hey are not â€œmini-dealsâ€ and have not been negotiated with the UK. *_

Click to expand...

So they're not in control of the things the UK decides then, including what the UK unilaterally decides... point made, petard hoisted.

Last bit I saw from the EU side was a concern raised by several countries that the EU was lagging behind the UK in its preparedness for No Deal. One of my daily papers(electronic version) is an English (speaking) paper, very pro-Remain, printed out here in Spain. They report a lot of whats happening in Europe, obviously especially in Spain, and if you think the EU are in control of everything re No Deal, or are even close to satisfying the EU27, you're way off the mark.

But hey, crack on believing the EU is perfect...


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## drdel (Aug 7, 2019)

German economy tanking with worse than expected output. (especially to China and USA, twill be hit by the Chinese devaluation). I'm sure Juncker and Barnier will still increase their budget demands to balance the books!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			So they're not in control of the things the UK decides then, including what the UK unilaterally decides... point made, petard hoisted.

Last bit I saw from the EU side was a concern raised by several countries that the EU was lagging behind the UK in its preparedness for No Deal. One of my daily papers(electronic version) is an English (speaking) paper, very pro-Remain, printed out here in Spain. They report a lot of whats happening in Europe, obviously especially in Spain, and if you think the EU are in control of everything re No Deal, or are even close to satisfying the EU27, you're way off the mark.

But hey, crack on believing the EU is perfect...

Click to expand...

I do not believe for one moment that the EU is perfect - and I can well imagine that there are significant tensions within the EU27, but notwithstanding any uncertainty claimed over the future of the EU, I continue to believe that it madness to leave it for an immediate and near future about which we know very little, and about which there is huge uncertainty, with many promises and much expectation to be met.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 7, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1159031435069665281


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1159031435069665281

Click to expand...

And let's not having any claims that nobody talked about the WTO before the vote.  Of course we knew about trading under WTO rules before the vote.  It was laid out for us quite clearly.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...rexit-trade-talks-start-scratch-eu-referendum


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			German economy tanking with worse than expected output. (especially to China and USA, twill be hit by the Chinese devaluation). I'm sure Juncker and Barnier will still increase their budget demands to balance the books!
		
Click to expand...

When you look at th govt bonds in Germany and the UK its fairly easy to see which is performing better. German bonds at a minus number whereas the UK are still in the +.


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do not believe for one moment that the EU is perfect - and I can well imagine that there are significant tensions within the EU27, but notwithstanding any uncertainty claimed over the future of the EU, I continue to believe that it madness to leave it for an immediate and near future about which we know very little, and about which there is huge uncertainty, with many promises and much expectation to be met.
		
Click to expand...

For me, there are two significant threads to the EU. One is trade, and being part of that trading bloc is not to be walked away from lightly. The second is the politics. They are intertwined and you can't have one without the other. I wholeheartedly agree with being in the trading bloc but feel the political side of it is reaching disgustingly undemocratic proportions. I would prefer to stay in but feel it needs a radical change.

The method for choosing the incoming president is a prime example of what is wrong with the EU, and how they make things up on the fly to suit the Commission, not the EU28, without even recourse to the EU Parliament. The EU has a mechanism the recognises the largest parties/groups, and those groups used have a major say in direction and policy. The right won a significant number, if not an overall majority, in the recent European elections. Those mechanisms/protocols have been dropped like a hot potato, and the old guard is still running the EU. That is disgusting. Loathe or like the group that should hold sway, fine no problem with that, but ignore them even though they form a significant part of the EU Parliament, totally undemocratic and totally wrong.

Back to your post; we don't know what the UK will be like outside of the EU. But bearing in mind Juncker's, Merkel's and Macron's pronouncements for the future direction of the EU do you know what it will be like? You know the EU of yesterday and today but you haven't got a clue where it will be in 5 years time. An EU army is a given now. Merkel has said it in detail, as has Macron. New legislation, including EU authority on national budgets is being taken to the next level, i.e. a national budget will have to be agreed with the EU financial commissioner before it can go before a national Parliament.

The EU of 10-15 years ago I don't have a problem with. The EEC is my preferred option. The obvious, and in most cases the very open shift towards federalism, no, no and thrice no. I'd rather stay in and change it but if the crystal ball says total, or near enough, federalism its a no for me. I would vote Remain again as I hope that the disaffected and ignored MEP groups will stand up to the Commission, and I hope that the change to qualified majorities in so many new areas in the EU Parliament will bite the old guard in the bum.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			For me, there are two significant threads to the EU. One is trade, and being part of that trading bloc is not to be walked away from lightly. The second is the politics. They are intertwined and you can't have one without the other. I wholeheartedly agree with being in the trading bloc but feel the political side of it is reaching disgustingly undemocratic proportions. I would prefer to stay in but feel it needs a radical change.

*The method for choosing the incoming president is a prime example of what is wrong with the EU*, and how they make things up on the fly to suit the Commission, not the EU28, without even recourse to the EU Parliament. The EU has a mechanism the recognises the largest parties/groups, and those groups used have a major say in direction and policy. The right won a significant number, if not an overall majority, in the recent European elections. Those mechanisms/protocols have been dropped like a hot potato, and the old guard is still running the EU. That is disgusting. Loathe or like the group that should hold sway, fine no problem with that, but ignore them even though they form a significant part of the EU Parliament, totally undemocratic and totally wrong.

Back to your post; we don't know what the UK will be like outside of the EU. But bearing in mind Juncker's, Merkel's and Macron's pronouncements for the future direction of the EU do you know what it will be like? You know the EU of yesterday and today but you haven't got a clue where it will be in 5 years time. An EU army is a given now. Merkel has said it in detail, as has Macron. New legislation, including EU authority on national budgets is being taken to the next level, i.e. a national budget will have to be agreed with the EU financial commissioner before it can go before a national Parliament.

The EU of 10-15 years ago I don't have a problem with. The EEC is my preferred option. The obvious, and in most cases the very open shift towards federalism, no, no and thrice no. I'd rather stay in and change it but if the crystal ball says total, or near enough, federalism its a no for me. I would vote Remain again as I hope that the disaffected and ignored MEP groups will stand up to the Commission, and I hope that the change to qualified majorities in so many new areas in the EU Parliament will bite the old guard in the bum.
		
Click to expand...

That may well be true, but then again in the UK we have a situation where we have a PM at a critical point in our political history chosen by a minute percentage of the population who is governing on at times with a different agenda to the leader of the party at the time of the last GE, who could not form a majority government at the time anyway. Yes them's the rules and I know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but we have seemingly strange ways of chosing leaders as well that some may argue is just as undemocratic.


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			That may well be true, but then again in the UK we have a situation where we have a PM at a critical point in our political history chosen by a minute percentage of the population who is governing on at times with a different agenda to the leader of the party at the time of the last GE, who could not form a majority government at the time anyway. Yes them's the rules and I know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but we have seemingly strange ways of chosing leaders as well that some may argue is just as undemocratic.
		
Click to expand...

I think you miss the point by a mile. A party chooses its own leader. A constituent in, say, Newcastle chooses their MP. No one votes in an election for a Prime Minister. Should the electorate have chosen Corbyn on the off chance/good chance he will become Prime Minister? Should that apply to every single political party? Its just plain daft. Why would I choose a Tory leader?

Isn't it amazing that this issue of who chooses the PM has reared its head now but never in the past? I wonder how many Tories, or even Leavers from across the board agree with your point? I'm inclined to think its almost only Remainers who've thought up that one.

Would there have been the same bally-ho if Dominic Greive or even Jeremy Hunt had been chosen as PM? No, thought so...


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## drdel (Aug 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			That may well be true, but then again in the UK we have a situation where we have a PM at a critical point in our political history chosen by a minute percentage of the population who is governing on at times with a different agenda to the leader of the party at the time of the last GE, who could not form a majority government at the time anyway. Yes them's the rules and I know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but we have seemingly strange ways of chosing leaders as well that some may argue is just as undemocratic.
		
Click to expand...

But the UK can get shot of a PM,  the EU member states can't remove Juncker, Barnier, Tusk, verhorfstadt etc. The UK's elected PM is negotiating with an unelected flunky not elected by any citizen.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think you miss the point by a mile. A party chooses its own leader. A constituent in, say, Newcastle chooses their MP. No one votes in an election for a Prime Minister. Should the electorate have chosen Corbyn on the off chance/good chance he will become Prime Minister? Should that apply to every single political party? Its just plain daft. Why would I choose a Tory leader?

*Isn't it amazing that this issue of who chooses the PM has reared its head now but never in the past?* I wonder how many Tories, or even Leavers from across the board agree with your point? *I'm inclined to think its almost only Remainers who've thought up that one.*

Would there have been the same bally-ho if Dominic Greive or even Jeremy Hunt had been chosen as PM? No, thought so...
		
Click to expand...

Nope, someone has mentioned it before, can't quite remember their name though, it will come to me shortly, pretty sure he's not a remainer though....

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...how-boris-johnson-described-gordon-brown-2007

Whoever is making critical decisions for the country without getting a mandate from the public at a GE is wrong IMHO.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Nope, someone has mentioned it before, can't quite remember their name though, it will come to me shortly....

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...how-boris-johnson-described-gordon-brown-2007

Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s politicians for you..
Itâ€™s why nothing they say can be believed anymore.


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Nope, someone has mentioned it before, can't quite remember their name though, it will come to me shortly, pretty sure he's not a remainer though....

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...how-boris-johnson-described-gordon-brown-2007

Whoever is making critical decisions for the country without getting a mandate from the public at a GE is wrong IMHO.
		
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The mandate was given in the result of the referendum. Parliament supported that mandate by triggering Article 50.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Nope, someone has mentioned it before, can't quite remember their name though, it will come to me shortly, pretty sure he's not a remainer though....

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...how-boris-johnson-described-gordon-brown-2007

Whoever is making critical decisions for the country without getting a mandate from the public at a GE is wrong IMHO.
		
Click to expand...

Your honest opinion is wrong, not convinced its honest either. MPs voted to trigger article 50 so that the UK could leave the EU. They also voted for the EU withdrawl act.  What other mandate do the public require?


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## drdel (Aug 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Your honest opinion is wrong, not convinced its honest either. MPs voted to trigger article 50 so that the UK could leave the EU. They also voted for the EU withdrawl act.  What other mandate do the public require?
		
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Yup. Then the same Parliament voted against the suggested deal on 3 occasions and now they rally against a government that tried to change this deal in the face of the EU stating it won't renegotiate.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Yup. Then the same Parliament voted against the suggested deal on 3 occasions and now they rally against a government that tried to change this deal in the face of the EU stating it won't renegotiate.
		
Click to expand...

The lack of negotiation by the EU started all this when Cameron asked for some changes.
They are just inflexible and this will implode on them ,itâ€™s their own fault.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 9, 2019)

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-eus-last-ultimatum-on-brexit-is-intended-to-fail

great quote :

Suppose the EU were to say to the US: â€œWeâ€™ll discuss a trade deal, but with two preconditions. First we control your trade with the rest of the world. Second we set the economic rules for Texas. Oh, and after that, we might not give you the trade deal.â€


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## robinthehood (Aug 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-eus-last-ultimatum-on-brexit-is-intended-to-fail

great quote :

Suppose the EU were to say to the US: â€œWeâ€™ll discuss a trade deal, but with two preconditions. First we control your trade with the rest of the world. Second we set the economic rules for Texas. Oh, and after that, we might not give you the trade deal.â€
		
Click to expand...

Ultra biased claptrap.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ultra biased claptrap.
		
Click to expand...

^^^ Ultra biased claptrap.


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## robinthehood (Aug 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			^^^ Ultra biased claptrap.
		
Click to expand...

Oof.
? That makes even  less sense than your usual rants and that's saying something.


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## Hobbit (Aug 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ultra biased claptrap.
		
Click to expand...

Actually, it isn't. 

If you've bothered to read the Withdrawal Agreement, the analogy in the first paragraph applies, especially in the CAP area. Rather than get into yes it is, no it isn't opinion based rejection why not read the agri bit in the WA. The bit about an independent monitoring body funded by the UK that reports back to the EU on UK pricing, tariffs and quotas with countries the UK might have trade deals with. So just who is setting the UK's pricing? Who is, potentially, stopping the UK being competitive in agri? And the arbitrator, post-Brexit, in this area would be the ECJ.

There may, is, a little poetic licence in the main body of the article, some of it being a little unintelligent, but the analogy is pretty damn close.


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## robinthehood (Aug 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Actually, it isn't. 

If you've bothered to read the Withdrawal Agreement, the analogy in the first paragraph applies, especially in the CAP area. Rather than get into yes it is, no it isn't opinion based rejection why not read the agri bit in the WA. The bit about an independent monitoring body funded by the UK that reports back to the EU on UK pricing, tariffs and quotas with countries the UK might have trade deals with. So just who is setting the UK's pricing? Who is, potentially, stopping the UK being competitive in agri? And the arbitrator, post-Brexit, in this area would be the ECJ.

There may, is, a little poetic licence in the main body of the article, some of it being a little unintelligent, but the analogy is pretty damn close.
		
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I have and I also know who dan hannan is


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## jp5 (Aug 9, 2019)

Economy shrinking as we head towards a no-deal. Hold your hats


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2019)

One for @LTyrion in respect of LBC...as he asked about it on the Trump thread.

The first two hours 10am-12pm today (09/08) make perfect listening if you are at all interested in the modus operandi of James O'Brien (he being of the 'leaving is madness' brigade), when fielding calls in respect of  Brexit - and especially the way he deals with callers who are determined to beat him in respect of arguments over leaving -  It's all good (actually it's very dispiriting) - but 10:30am to 11:00am is typical if you can't spare time to listen to all (it's all worth it as quite a few calls from EU27 citizens)

You can get it on Global Player - LBC website catch up.

https://www.globalplayer.com/catchup/lbc/london


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 9, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Economy shrinking as we head towards a no-deal. Hold your hats 

Click to expand...

You just need to believe it will all be OK more. Traitor.


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## User62651 (Aug 9, 2019)

Anyone see Chancellor Javid on Sky news trying to defend govt on economy, seemed out of his depth and nervy, mouth getting ahead of his brain. Unconvincing performance.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One for @LTyrion in respect of LBC...as he asked about it on the Trump thread.

The first two hours 10am-12pm today (09/08) make perfect listening if you are at all interested in the modus operandi of James O'Brien (he being of the 'leaving is madness' brigade), when fielding calls in respect of  Brexit - and especially the way he deals with callers who are determined to beat him in respect of arguments over leaving -  It's all good (actually it's very dispiriting) - but 10:30am to 11:00am is typical if you can't spare time to listen to all (it's all worth it as quite a few calls from EU27 citizens)

You can get it on Global Player - LBC website catch up.

https://www.globalplayer.com/catchup/lbc/london

Click to expand...

The guy, for me, represents the worst of 'rant radio'... 
It's very easy, for him, sitting in 'home turf' using a medium he is comfortable/familiar with... Put him on the other side of a table eyeball to eyeball and he wouldn't appear so big and clever then...


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Anyone see Chancellor Javid on Sky news trying to defend govt on economy, seemed out of his depth and nervy, mouth getting ahead of his brain. Unconvincing performance.
		
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These people change jobs to much.
Nobody can remember everything, so we need someone there who knows what they are doing ,not just because they were loyal to the leadership.
That goes for all departments in government.
All parties do this he wonâ€™t be the last.


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## drdel (Aug 9, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Economy shrinking as we head towards a no-deal. Hold your hats 

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Germany is technically in recession. Since the UK's GDP has increased fastest the EU will increase the UK's contribution should we stay.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			The guy, for me, represents the worst of 'rant radio'...
It's very easy, for him, sitting in 'home turf' using a medium he is comfortable/familiar with... Put him on the other side of a table eyeball to eyeball and he wouldn't appear so big and clever then...
		
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Putting aside what you think of JO'B what did you think of today's Leave callers...Nobody was forcing these folks to call in - they called in absolutely convinced that they have their argument nailed and they will 'own' O'Brien.  Do you think they did that today?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Anyone see Chancellor Javid on Sky news trying to defend govt on economy, seemed out of his depth and nervy, mouth getting ahead of his brain. Unconvincing performance.
		
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Didn't see but heard - didn't sound great.  

One more quarter like the last one and we'll be in recession - all going tickety-boo then - and all will be just fine according to Javid because it is simply the uncertainly around having not left that is the problem - not really to do with risk of UK leaving on a _No Deal_ basis.  No.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 9, 2019)

Summary for those who can't be bothered to read the whole article :



For reasons that I have explained elsewhere, the Supreme Courtâ€™s _Miller _judgment handed Parliament a golden opportunity to take control of the Brexit process. That opportunity was immediately squandered by parliamentarians who â€” for fear of being castigated as â€œenemies of the peopleâ€ â€” fell over themselves to write the Government a blank cheque when they enacted the Notification of Withdrawal Act. That Act handed the Government complete discretion over when Article 50 should be triggered and provided Parliament with absolutely no instruments of control over the ensuing process. Ever since, Parliament has been playing catch-up. As the autumn unfolds, and as the cliff-edge beckons, we will see whether the majority of parliamentarians who are opposed to a no-deal Brexit can recover the situation. As I have sought to show in this post, Parliament does have options open to it. But those options are limited in legal terms â€” and decidedly so in political terms. 

https://publiclawforeveryone.com/2019/08/08/can-parliament-prevent-a-no-deal-brexit/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Summary for those who can't be bothered to read the whole article :



For reasons that I have explained elsewhere, the Supreme Courtâ€™s _Miller _judgment handed Parliament a golden opportunity to take control of the Brexit process. That opportunity was immediately squandered by parliamentarians who â€” for fear of being castigated as â€œenemies of the peopleâ€ â€” fell over themselves to write the Government a blank cheque when they enacted the Notification of Withdrawal Act. That Act handed the Government complete discretion over when Article 50 should be triggered and provided Parliament with absolutely no instruments of control over the ensuing process. Ever since, Parliament has been playing catch-up. As the autumn unfolds, and as the cliff-edge beckons, we will see whether the majority of parliamentarians who are opposed to a no-deal Brexit can recover the situation. As I have sought to show in this post, Parliament does have options open to it. But those options are limited in legal terms â€” and decidedly so in political terms.

https://publiclawforeveryone.com/2019/08/08/can-parliament-prevent-a-no-deal-brexit/

Click to expand...

Really useful article - many thanks for posting the link to it.  Just read it all


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## MegaSteve (Aug 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Putting aside what you think of JO'B what did you think of today's Leave callers...Nobody was forcing these folks to call in - they called in absolutely convinced that they have their argument nailed and they will 'own' O'Brien.  Do you think they did that today?
		
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I don't really indulge in 'rant radio' these days... Much prefer easy listening 'stuff' nowadays... Did use to do LBC back in the day... Really think 'phoning in to someone residing in their comfort zone starts you off disadvantaged... 

As I noted earlier take Jo'B out of his zone and he'd struggle... He's a professional broadcaster who's earnt his spurs conducting 'rant radio' the callers aren't... So, more fool them... Doesn't make him right or them wrong...


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## Hobbit (Aug 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Putting aside what you think of JO'B what did you think of today's Leave callers...Nobody was forcing these folks to call in - they called in absolutely convinced that they have their argument nailed and they will 'own' O'Brien.  Do you think they did that today?
		
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Here's a thought for you Hugh. You come on here convinced that Leaving is wrong. People argue with you. Some quote Cameron/Osbourne's claims on Leave means Leaving the SM/CU. Some quote Osbourne's pronouncements on emergency budgets, Â£4,200 worse off in the first year, rampant unemployment overnight. You highlight May's, and subsequently, Boris's red lines, and others point to the EU's red lines. Who's right and who is wrong?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Anyone see Chancellor Javid on Sky news trying to defend govt on economy, seemed out of his depth and nervy, mouth getting ahead of his brain. Unconvincing performance.
		
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A former Casino Banker in charge of the UK economy, what could possibly go wrong.


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## Foxholer (Aug 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Here's a thought for you Hugh. You come on here convinced that Leaving is wrong. People argue with you. Some quote Cameron/Osbourne's claims on Leave means Leaving the SM/CU. Some quote Osbourne's pronouncements on emergency budgets, Â£4,200 worse off in the first year, rampant unemployment overnight. You highlight May's, and subsequently, Boris's red lines, and others point to the EU's red lines. Who's right and who is wrong?
		
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Neither/None! Even Osborne's Â£4300/household (i.e. 6% reduction in GDP), though that's the most likely to be 'wrong', simply because of other factors!


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## Hobbit (Aug 9, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Economy shrinking as we head towards a no-deal. Hold your hats 

Click to expand...

Strangely enough Germany's and Italy's economy shrank by the same number. Brexit or global demand?


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## chrisd (Aug 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Strangely enough Germany's and Italy's economy shrank by the same number. Brexit or global demand?
		
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Or just not buying because of over stocking due to the earlier date?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Here's a thought for you Hugh. You come on here convinced that Leaving is wrong. People argue with you. Some quote Cameron/Osbourne's claims on Leave means Leaving the SM/CU. Some quote Osbourne's pronouncements on emergency budgets, Â£4,200 worse off in the first year, rampant unemployment overnight. You highlight May's, and subsequently, Boris's red lines, and others point to the EU's red lines. Who's right and who is wrong?
		
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You are right - I am absolutely convinced leaving is wrong.  

What might in the worst case scenario have happened immediately following the vote largely hasn't - but the BoE carried out mitigating actions that largely worked - and the chancellor who would have called an Emergency Budget resigned; and some impacts are coming to pass.  But just because some things haven't happened, doesn't mean they and others won't when we actually leave.  It's a huge risk with peoples livelihood and lives - for what benefit to the individual in the long term (never mind the short term pain) I just don't get.

But rather than simply dismiss Leave voters views I listen to them.  So just try listening to them this morning on JO'B.  Many very committed Leave voters arguing their corner with him - determined to 'own' him.  How did they get on?


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## Hobbit (Aug 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are right - I am absolutely convinced leaving is wrong. 

What might in the worst case scenario have happened immediately following the vote largely hasn't - but the BoE carried out mitigating actions that largely worked - and the chancellor who would have called an Emergency Budget resigned; and some impacts are coming to pass.  But just because some things haven't happened, doesn't mean they and others won't when we actually leave.  It's a huge risk with peoples livelihood and lives - for what benefit to the individual in the long term (never mind the short term pain) I just don't get.

But rather than simply dismiss Leave voters views I listen to them.  So just try listening to them this morning on JO'B.  Many very committed Leave voters arguing their corner with him - determined to 'own' him.  How did they get on?
		
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I'm more than happy to give JO'B a miss. I have listened to his show on several occasions. For me, he's too extreme just as Farage is too extreme. He's right to highlight some of the issues but its the way he does it, with arrogance and snide put downs. Like Farage, he's not a nice person.


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## drdel (Aug 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are right - I am absolutely convinced leaving is wrong.

What might in the worst case scenario have happened immediately following the vote largely hasn't - but the BoE carried out mitigating actions that largely worked - and the chancellor who would have called an Emergency Budget resigned; and some impacts are coming to pass.  But just because some things haven't happened, doesn't mean they and others won't when we actually leave.  It's a huge risk with peoples livelihood and lives - for what benefit to the individual in the long term (never mind the short term pain) I just don't get.

But rather than simply dismiss Leave voters views I listen to them.  So just try listening to them this morning on JO'B.  Many very committed Leave voters arguing their corner with him - determined to 'own' him.  How did they get on?
		
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You really need to look in depth at what's been happening in the r27 nations: it is far from healthy. You talk about the BoE taking mitigating adjustments - at least they can. The central aim of the new guard in Brussels is for the ECB to be the dominant force. This would move most, if not all, control to Brussels and over time reduce the City of London's sphere of operation (look at the EU and Swiss arguments that have been banging heads for 4 years.) They have milked the UK and ignored us for the last few decades; do you think they'd stop now?


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## jp5 (Aug 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Strangely enough Germany's and Italy's economy shrank by the same number. Brexit or global demand?
		
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Not sure. Probably Labour's fault.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 10, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Not sure. Probably Labour's fault.
		
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Probably


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Not sure. Probably Labour's fault.
		
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Naw, Sturgeon must answer.

Is it true that the new 50p coin has the Queen on the front doing a face palm and Private Fraser on the back looking boggle eyed and saying 'we're doomed'.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Naw, Sturgeon must answer.

Is it true that the new 50p coin has the Queen on the front doing a face palm and Private Fraser on the back looking boggle eyed and saying 'we're doomed'. 

Click to expand...

After you win the Indy Ref 2 vote you won't have to worry about that. You'll just be able sit and look at all your shiny new Euros. You'd better hope that the Â£ doesn't fall too far or you'll all be much worse off when you swap currencies.


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## Mudball (Aug 12, 2019)

Well BoJo doing the right things about getting ready for a GE or Ref2. He is splashing the cash.. if either GE or R2 happen he will be in a strong position to say all the thing that he can/would do if we are free and how Corbin or EU wonâ€™t let him. 
As a nurse voting in the Ref, the promise to end austerity and get a hike is a stronger sell than EU and Â£ falling. So you can see the Tories win again..


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2019)

Johnson increasing police numbers and prison places, must be anticipating some sort of civil disorder.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson increasing police numbers and prison places, must be anticipating some sort of civil disorder.

Click to expand...

If he doesn't deliver brexit he may well be right...


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## spongebob59 (Aug 12, 2019)

So  Green MP Caroline Lucas wants an all-female "government of national unity".
Among the women she has invited to join her are Labour's shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry, Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson, Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and Conservative MP Justine Greening.
The others are: Heidi Allen, Kirsty Blackman, Yvette Cooper, Sylvia Hermon, Liz Saville Roberts and Anna Soubry.
She has asked to meet the 10 women in the coming days.

I notice Ababcus isn't one of the names being touted


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 12, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So  Green MP Caroline Lucas wants an all-female "government of national unity".
Among the women she has invited to join her are Labour's shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry, Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson, Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and Conservative MP Justine Greening.
The others are: Heidi Allen, Kirsty Blackman, Yvette Cooper, Sylvia Hermon, Liz Saville Roberts and Anna Soubry.
She has asked to meet the 10 women in the coming days.

I notice Ababcus isn't one of the names being touted 

Click to expand...

Are they all Remainers? And if so why does Caroline Lucas think that the best way to unify the country is to exclude half the people because of their gender and all of those that were Leavers? I suspect that her version of national unity is cancelling Brexit and to hell with the consequences.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 12, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So  Green MP Caroline Lucas wants an all-female "government of national unity".
Among the women she has invited to join her are Labour's shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry, Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson, Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and Conservative MP Justine Greening.
The others are: Heidi Allen, Kirsty Blackman, Yvette Cooper, Sylvia Hermon, Liz Saville Roberts and Anna Soubry.
She has asked to meet the 10 women in the coming days.

I notice Ababcus isn't one of the names being touted 

Click to expand...

I think most women in the country would not vote for that lot.
Imagine if that was a all male list from an MP they would be calling for him to resign.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So  Green MP Caroline Lucas wants an all-female "government of national unity".
Among the women she has invited to join her are Labour's shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry, Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson, Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and Conservative MP Justine Greening.
The others are: Heidi Allen, Kirsty Blackman, Yvette Cooper, Sylvia Hermon, Liz Saville Roberts and Anna Soubry.
She has asked to meet the 10 women in the coming days.

I notice Ababcus isn't one of the names being touted 

Click to expand...

Aye, what we need is more sensible women like Truss and McVey.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 12, 2019)

And the greens have how many MP's  ???
1.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 12, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			If he doesn't deliver brexit he may well be right...
		
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That was my point.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2019)

If only there had been a woman in charge of the whole process over the last 3 years, she would have delivered Brexit. Eeerrmmmmmmmmm. She has embarassed herself with this nonsense. Not sure why the media are giving her a platform, other than it is the silly season.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 12, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1160893915396026368


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 12, 2019)

Swears a bit, makes some good points.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 12, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are they all Remainers? And if so why does Caroline Lucas think that the best way to unify the country is to exclude half the people because of their gender and all of those that were Leavers? I suspect that her version of national unity is cancelling Brexit and to hell with the consequences.
		
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Sturgeons not even an MP.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:








Swears a bit, makes some good points.
		
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Good points,  really!     Same old biased claptrap to me


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## robinthehood (Aug 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Good points,  really!     Same old biased claptrap to me
		
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Oof, Jeez man come up with your own replies.


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## chrisd (Aug 13, 2019)

I chuck this one in from time to time


The EU say that they would prefer us to stay in. We had the referendum following Cameron's disastrous attempt to get a better deal out of the EU whilst in. Why does the EU not negotiate a not leave deal that we can all live with and then have a 2nd referendum?  I'm aware there are many leavers who would never want to stay in but I'm sure if areas of concern going back to the Cameron times were addressed like freedom of movement, immigration, benefits etc then many leavers would likely change their minds and we could (if legally possible) revoke Article 50.,the EU member countries certainly would be better off!


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## spongebob59 (Aug 13, 2019)

they were inflexible then, inflexible during the supposed negotiation and I suspect would be even further inflexible as they head towards greater federalism.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 13, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I chuck this one in from time to time


The EU say that they would prefer us to stay in. We had the referendum following Cameron's disastrous attempt to get a better deal out of the EU whilst in. Why does the EU not negotiate a not leave deal that we can all live with and then have a 2nd referendum?  I'm aware there are many leavers who would never want to stay in but I'm sure if areas of concern going back to the Cameron times were addressed like freedom of movement, immigration, benefits etc then many leavers would likely change their minds and we could (if legally possible) revoke Article 50.,the EU member countries certainly would be better off!
		
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It would take both the EU and UK to want to do that. And as we've seen, finding a deal both sides can live with whilst at the same time allowing the EU to protect the rest of the EU members and pacifying the increasingly anti EU cabinet seems more and more unlikely. 

And I feel the debate now in the UK has mostly lost any semblance of logical thought. So if we tried to revisit the main issues and address them it would just get lost again in a shower of BS and lies on both sides.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof, Jeez man come up with your own replies.
		
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Goof! Jeez man, come up with your own replies ðŸ™„


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## robinthehood (Aug 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Goof! Jeez man, come up with your own replies ðŸ™„
		
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Oof
ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
Don't make me quote your rip off responses ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 13, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I chuck this one in from time to time


The EU say that they would prefer us to stay in. We had the referendum following Cameron's disastrous attempt to get a better deal out of the EU whilst in. Why does the EU not negotiate a not leave deal that we can all live with and then have a 2nd referendum?  I'm aware there are many leavers who would never want to stay in but I'm sure if areas of concern going back to the Cameron times were addressed like freedom of movement, immigration, benefits etc then many leavers would likely change their minds and we could (if legally possible) revoke Article 50.,the EU member countries certainly would be better off!
		
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The EU is a political project and they have blinkers on .
What through this whole farce have they really conceded in negotiations.
Nothing ,they told Cameron to do one ,and May was to weak.
Now we have Boris with his hard line, but there was never a middle ground they knew if they gave any concessions all the member states would want them.
So staying in and reforming dosnt work thatâ€™s been proven beyond dought.

Most of the net takers in the EU want us to stay as we subsidise them.
Net contributors want us to stay to keep their bills down.
But this is purely political and itâ€™s to late to change now imo.
They both had a chance to sort it but itâ€™s like two guys in a pub fight, after a while they forgot what they were arguing about.


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## pendodave (Aug 13, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I chuck this one in from time to time


The EU say that they would prefer us to stay in. We had the referendum following Cameron's disastrous attempt to get a better deal out of the EU whilst in. Why does the EU not negotiate a not leave deal that we can all live with and then have a 2nd referendum?  I'm aware there are many leavers who would never want to stay in but I'm sure if areas of concern going back to the Cameron times were addressed like freedom of movement, immigration, benefits etc then many leavers would likely change their minds and we could (if legally possible) revoke Article 50.,the EU member countries certainly would be better off!
		
Click to expand...

Most of the things that people didn't like about the EU were entirely within the power of our own politicians to manage much better than they did. As we have since discovered, our lot are mostly incompetent and answer to a number of vested interests which 'own' them. I think that will continue to be the case in either this suggested scenario or the current ****show.


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## pendodave (Aug 13, 2019)

On reflection, I wonder if the UK was always structurally unsuited to benefit from the EU.
As a rich country, we are always going to going to be a net contributer.
We don't have a big landmass like France and Germany, so don't benefit from the agricultural subsidy as much as them.
We don't have a large manufacturing base to benefit from the free market.
The way in which the welfare state operates seems incompatible with being in a free movement bloc of several 100m who have less generous/readily accessible systems.
We have a very high population density and many infrastructure/service delivery constraints which means any increase in population leads to much lower quality of life for existing residents.
We have weak trade unions which allow the government to get away with all allowing the availability of cheaper labor to undermine local terms and conditions.

I dunno, maybe these don't stand up to scrutiny, but I wonder if there's any realistic way for UK to get a deal that is workable.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 13, 2019)

pendodave said:



			On reflection, I wonder if the UK was always structurally unsuited to benefit from the EU.
As a rich country, we are always going to going to be a net contributer.
We don't have a big landmass like France and Germany, so don't benefit from the agricultural subsidy as much as them.
We don't have a large manufacturing base to benefit from the free market.
The way in which the welfare state operates seems incompatible with being in a free movement bloc of several 100m who have less generous/readily accessible systems.
We have a very high population density and many infrastructure/service delivery constraints which means any increase in population leads to much lower quality of life for existing residents.
We have weak trade unions which allow the government to get away with all allowing the availability of cheaper labor to undermine local terms and conditions.

I dunno, maybe these don't stand up to scrutiny, but I wonder if there's any realistic way for UK to get a deal that is workable.
		
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Erm... We had a "large manufacturing base" when we joined... Brussels encouraged and made it easy for big business to move manufacturing and production lines to the continent...


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 13, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I chuck this one in from time to time


The EU say that they would prefer us to stay in. We had the referendum following Cameron's disastrous attempt to get a better deal out of the EU whilst in. Why does the EU not negotiate a not leave deal that we can all live with and then have a 2nd referendum?  I'm aware there are many leavers who would never want to stay in but I'm sure if areas of concern going back to the Cameron times were addressed like freedom of movement, immigration, benefits etc then many leavers would likely change their minds and we could (if legally possible) revoke Article 50.,the EU member countries certainly would be better off!
		
Click to expand...

Do you not think that the right wing argument about changes to FoM, immigration and benefits has now been totally blown out of the water.
Along with the 72 million Turkish citizens de-camping to England, claiming benefits [whilst also taking our jobs ] free NHS services and opening barbers shops.


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## drdel (Aug 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you not think that the right wing argument about changes to FoM, immigration and benefits has now been totally blown out of the water.
Along with the 72 million Turkish citizens de-camping to England, claiming benefits [whilst also taking our jobs ] free NHS services and opening barbers shops.
		
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No. Its going to get worse if not necessarily from Turkey.

Have you not read the EU's intended change to their policy that will not oblige the first country of arrival to be the point of entry and processing of illegal immigration.


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## IanM (Aug 13, 2019)

Bit like Tony Blair's declaration of only 5-10k coming from Poland then Doon? 

(edit,  Maybe Diane did the estimate)


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 13, 2019)

IanM said:



			Bit like Tony Blair's declaration of only 5-10k coming from Poland then Doon? 

(edit,  Maybe Diane did the estimate)
		
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That was then...â€¦..now is a totally different story.
The UK is not seen as a desired destination now for EU workers, not felt welcome/falling Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£s/etc etc.
In the meantime our NHS, Armed Forces and agri work sections are seriously understaffed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 13, 2019)

IanM said:



			Bit like Tony Blair's declaration of only 5-10k coming from Poland then Doon? 

(edit,  Maybe Diane did the estimate)
		
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It's still more accurate than the Johnson/Farage Turkish one. 
#worse than Diane


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## Hobbit (Aug 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It's still more accurate than the Johnson/Farage Turkish one. 
#worse than Diane
		
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Bit like the SNP's pronouncements on oil revenue 

#indey ref 1


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## User62651 (Aug 13, 2019)

Anyone reason out why Farage has been a bit gobby re royals in Australia, knowing it'll get out and be reported? Some of it was on an Ozzie tv show and some to a private audience I believe.

Is it racism against Meghan?
Is it exasperation at all Monarchy or just Prince of Wales?
Why be unflattering about Queen Mother who is deceased?
Why take Harry to task for growing up a bit?
Was he just trying to appeal to Australians with a bit of Pommy bashing?

All seems a bit ill judged, knocking the Royals might appeal to some but rarely has mass appeal at UK wide level. I don't think there is a strong association between wishing to Leave EU and Republicanism, is there?

Even one or two of the pro Brexit redtops had articles about it.

Silly season for politicians?
Own goal for Farage?


----------



## chrisd (Aug 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you not think that the right wing argument about changes to FoM, immigration and benefits has now been totally blown out of the water.
Along with the 72 million Turkish citizens de-camping to England, claiming benefits [whilst also taking our jobs ] free NHS services and opening barbers shops.
		
Click to expand...

No


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## IanM (Aug 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It's still more accurate than the Johnson/Farage Turkish one. 
#worse than Diane
		
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Give it a mo eh?


Farage gobbing off about Royal Family is a weird one.   Maybe he is turning in to a Remainer, slagging off a pillar of UK Identity!!


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 13, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Anyone reason out why Farage has been a bit gobby re royals in Australia, knowing it'll get out and be reported? Some of it was on an Ozzie tv show and some to a private audience I believe.

Is it racism against Meghan?
Is it exasperation at all Monarchy or just Prince of Wales?
Why be unflattering about Queen Mother who is deceased?
Why take Harry to task for growing up a bit?
Was he just trying to appeal to Australians with a bit of Pommy bashing?

All seems a bit ill judged, knocking the Royals might appeal to some but rarely has mass appeal at UK wide level. I don't think there is a strong association between wishing to Leave EU and Republicanism, is there?

Even one or two of the pro Brexit redtops had articles about it.

Silly season for politicians?
Own goal for Farage?
		
Click to expand...

He's realising his core voters are drifting to the increasingly anti EU tory party so is reduced to saying any old garbage to keep himself in the news. 

And I hear Australia is moving more to his type of politics, so he may be laying the ground work for a move over there soon, say some populist stuff that will get some approval, it's from his classic play book.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That was then...â€¦..now is a totally different story.
*The UK is not seen as a desired destination now for EU workers,* not felt welcome/falling Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£s/etc etc.
In the meantime our NHS, Armed Forces and agri work sections are seriously understaffed.
		
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This proves just how far detached from reality you really are. Delusional doesnâ€™t even come close.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof
ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
Don't make me quote your rip off responses ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£
		
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What a plank ðŸ¤¡


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## Hobbit (Aug 14, 2019)

Watched a piece on YouTube recently which looked at the changing narrative around Brexit, and who changed that narrative. Lets just for a second take a step back from is Brexit good or bad - to be honest,  thats been done to death on here countless times. The piece centred around who won and who lost, and how that result has been continually attacked. 

A common theme since the result has been, "what Brexit have you voted for," and "you didn't vote for no deal," and "you didn't have all the facts back then." And the question in the background throughout was who has been asking the questions, Remainers or Leavers? Think about it, how many Leavers have been campaigning to change the result? How many have looked at all the new info, and said "we want another vote."

I'm not really interested in a big debate around those questions, and which group is behind them. Nor am I particularly interested in the various explanations about what is democracy, although I suppose I could ask is it Remainers or Leavers raising the question about democracy - again, that's been done to death too.

However, and I'm probably way off the mark, there is a growing sense of entitlement running through the UK. Once upon a time if someone lost a vote, they respected the result, sucked it up, got on with making the best of it. The "I lost but I want my way..." Really? Spoilt child?

And before anyone dismisses the piece because of the source, try and be intelligent about it. Yes its Douglas Carswell, who I have little time for, and Ron Liddle, both Brexiteers. Just take the questions posed at face value. Imagine you don't know the authors and try and take it from there.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Watched a piece on YouTube recently which looked at the changing narrative around Brexit, and who changed that narrative. Lets just for a second take a step back from is Brexit good or bad - to be honest,  thats been done to death on here countless times. The piece centred around who won and who lost, and how that result has been continually attacked.

A common theme since the result has been, "what Brexit have you voted for," and "you didn't vote for no deal," and "you didn't have all the facts back then." And the question in the background throughout was who has been asking the questions, Remainers or Leavers? Think about it, how many Leavers have been campaigning to change the result? How many have looked at all the new info, and said "we want another vote."

I'm not really interested in a big debate around those questions, and which group is behind them. Nor am I particularly interested in the various explanations about what is democracy, although I suppose I could ask is it Remainers or Leavers raising the question about democracy - again, that's been done to death too.

However, and I'm probably way off the mark, there is a growing sense of entitlement running through the UK. Once upon a time if someone lost a vote, they respected the result, sucked it up, got on with making the best of it. The "I lost but I want my way..." Really? Spoilt child?

And before anyone dismisses the piece because of the source, try and be intelligent about it. Yes its Douglas Carswell, who I have little time for, and Ron Liddle, both Brexiteers. Just take the questions posed at face value. Imagine you don't know the authors and try and take it from there.
		
Click to expand...

Is this just back to the same old argument that the 48% should just shut up and not point out what they believe is the madness in a no deal Brexit?

I imagine in a general/local election people will still accept the results, and if they feel strongly enough will actively work to change the result in 4 or 5 years time. However it seems that people perceive the current situation as very different.

It's a bit different to whether Anna Soubry or Nick Palmer gets in, whether Labour Councillor Adams or Green Councillor James gets in. It's a bit more important than that and will define our politics, economy and it seems increasingly what we are as a nation for years to come. Politics seems no longer to be red V blue but leave V remain. So total deference to privately educated cabinet ministers who arguably could be said to have some personal power issues that may override governing in the best interests of the whole nation, seems to be less relevant to some.

And extrapolating that we are now a nation of spoilt brats who will refuse to accept any legally binding election from now on is reductive at best.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 14, 2019)

Or the 52 % who vs had a belly full of EU rule for the past just forget that they were given a chance to have their  say and now be told that they are wrong ðŸ˜‰


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Watched a piece on YouTube recently which looked at the changing narrative around Brexit, and who changed that narrative. Lets just for a second take a step back from is Brexit good or bad - to be honest,  thats been done to death on here countless times. The piece centred around who won and who lost, and how that result has been continually attacked.

A common theme since the result has been, "what Brexit have you voted for," and "you didn't vote for no deal," and "you didn't have all the facts back then." And the question in the background throughout was who has been asking the questions, Remainers or Leavers? Think about it, how many Leavers have been campaigning to change the result? How many have looked at all the new info, and said "we want another vote."

I'm not really interested in a big debate around those questions, and which group is behind them. Nor am I particularly interested in the various explanations about what is democracy, although I suppose I could ask is it Remainers or Leavers raising the question about democracy - again, that's been done to death too.

However, and I'm probably way off the mark, there is a growing sense of entitlement running through the UK. Once upon a time if someone lost a vote, they respected the result, sucked it up, got on with making the best of it. The "I lost but I want my way..." Really? Spoilt child?

And before anyone dismisses the piece because of the source, try and be intelligent about it. Yes its Douglas Carswell, who I have little time for, and Ron Liddle, both Brexiteers. Just take the questions posed at face value. Imagine you don't know the authors and try and take it from there.
		
Click to expand...

What Brexit we voted for is an after thought that has been really messed up big time by politicians.
The one certainly we didnâ€™t vote for was Remain


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## IanM (Aug 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That was then...â€¦..now is a totally different story.
The UK is not seen as a desired destination now for EU workers, not felt welcome/falling Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£s/etc etc.
		
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Again (some respect) rubbish!  Over 600k people moved here in 2018.  Well according to the ONS anyway.  Trend is slowing though.... but I'd venture that is as a result of no new EU joiners recerntly .....

BBC Business News on good form again.   Big slow down in Germany is caused my World Wide factors, in next breath "better UK figures than Germany" are "despite Brexit!" 

Those "educational grants" sure buy a lot of leverage!


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## IanM (Aug 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			And extrapolating that we are now a nation of spoilt brats who will refuse to accept any legally binding election from now on is reductive at best.
		
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Correct.... but it is only one side of the divide who are like that!


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## drdel (Aug 14, 2019)

I agree the result was narrow (it was always going to be simply based on statistical theory and a binary choice set out across millions of voters) - but there was a result.

What annoys me is the MPs on all sides of the HoC would agreed to set the process in motion. They gave a commitment to follow the result and but renege on that collective commitment. Not only have they not supported the result but we also we have senior MPs (Hammond is one of the worst and a prime example) who are deliberately undermining negotiations and frustrating _ANY_ attempt to move forward.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 14, 2019)

IanM said:



			Correct.... but it is only one side of the divide who are like that!
		
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Said it many times, but many remainers would have reluctantly accepted a deal. 

But more and more are becoming less accepting of a no deal and want to make their views known.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 14, 2019)

NEW: Preferred Brexit outcome, updated: Remain in the EU 43% (+2) Leave the EU with a deal 29% (+2) Leave the EU without a deal19% (-6) Donâ€™t know 9% (+2) changes w/ May 2019 (link: https://www.survation.com/general-election-voting-intention-and-brexit-preferences-poll/) survation.com/general-electiâ€¦ 

If my maths are correct thats Remain = 43, Leave = 48.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Said it many times, but many remainers would have reluctantly accepted a deal. 

But more and more are becoming less accepting of a no deal and want to make their views known.
		
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What deal would you accept?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That was then...â€¦..now is a totally different story.
The UK is not seen as a desired destination now for EU workers, not felt welcome/falling Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£s/etc etc.
In the meantime our NHS, Armed Forces and agri work sections are seriously understaffed.
		
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Immigrants from the EU increased by 4% in the last year. Your comment is twaddle.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 14, 2019)

drdel said:



			I agree the result was narrow (it was always going to be simply based on statistical theory and a binary choice set out across millions of voters) - but there was a result.

What annoys me is the MPs on all sides of the HoC would agreed to set the process in motion. They gave a commitment to follow the result and but renege on that collective commitment. Not only have they not supported the result but we also we have senior MPs (Hammond is one of the worst and a prime example) who are deliberately undermining negotiations and frustrating _ANY_ attempt to move forward.
		
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Hammond did vote 3 times for the Brexit deal to get Brexit done. Which is more times than Boris did.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 14, 2019)

Just in case the waters are getting muddied by the â€œwe didnâ€™t vote for no dealâ€ nonsense.....


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Hammond did vote 3 times for the Brexit deal to get Brexit done. Which is more times than Boris did.
		
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But thats a LINO deal, its not a deal its abject Surrender, the type of thing countries sign when they lose a war.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Hammond did vote 3 times for the Brexit deal to get Brexit done. Which is more times than Boris did.
		
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 He also said this :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1161398263855099904


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## User62651 (Aug 14, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Just in case the waters are getting muddied by the â€œwe didnâ€™t vote for no dealâ€ nonsense.....


View attachment 27975

Click to expand...

if it's so simple just leave then. This head in sand attitude that leaving the EU is akin to simply walking out of a room and closing the door behind you is so frustrating. Instead of bleating Leave means Leave, Leavers need to find solutions to the many things holding us back from leaving. Seems Boris and Tories can't do that. You will need to break up the UK for one for a workable sea border down Irish sea, a land border is required but isn't acceptable within the island of Ireland, so if Brexit is so important why are leave led Tories not being proactive in that instead of resisting for example? They want it all ways but are offering no real solutions to why we haven't left, just blame shifting now to either EU or Theresa May as they can't do what they promised would be so easy 4 years ago.
Brexiteers own this and have taken over Govt. Up to them to find solutions good enough to get a parliamentary majority to see it through.
Infighting in Tory party is running so deep now I don't think Boris can win in Commons for No Deal or win an overall majority at next GE unless he gets a deal. However EU have an agreed if unratified WA and they're not shifting from that. 27 sticking together, not unsurprising.

Something major has to give soon.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			NEW: Preferred Brexit outcome, updated: Remain in the EU 43% (+2) Leave the EU with a deal 29% (+2) Leave the EU without a deal19% (-6) Donâ€™t know 9% (+2) changes w/ May 2019 (link: https://www.survation.com/general-election-voting-intention-and-brexit-preferences-poll/) survation.com/general-electiâ€¦

If my maths are correct thats Remain = 43, Leave = 48.
		
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And excluding don't knows.  Remain = 47.3%, Leave = 52.7%

So basically identical to the referendum outcome.

But only *19% choose *the _No Deal_ option - that option now seemingly being passively pursued by the government (as their negotiation pre-condition effectively rules out negotiation).

So less than 1 in 5 of the electorate expressing an opinion choose the option to leave with No Deal.  And yet forcing such through - with or without parliamentary approval - is thought to be acceptable and somehow democratic and reflecting the 'will of the people'?   Maybe all 'dealers' would prefer 'no deal' to 'remain' - and I have no doubt that many would.  But we don't actually know that.  And polls are just polls.  Maybe the electorate should be asked.

Though weirdly the Survation polls also finds 55:45 split Remain:Leave in the event of another referendum...but that's just a poll.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Immigrants from the EU increased by 4% in the last year. Your comment is twaddle.
		
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Have you a link to support that statement.  The most recent ONS stats on immigration (24/05/19) say the following:

_EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013. Non-EU long-term immigration has gradually increased over the last five years to similar levels seen in 2011.

Since 2016, overall long-term immigration to the UK for work has continued to decrease and looking at all available data sources, this has mainly been due to the fall in EU immigration to the UK for work. For non-EU citizens, since 2015, work-related immigration to the UK has remained broadly stable, however, the number of skilled work visas issued has been increasing._

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ns/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/may2019 

Next release is 22/08/19 - let's see what that says.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Have you a link to support that statement.  The most recent ONS stats on immigration (24/05/19) say the following:

_EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013. Non-EU long-term immigration has gradually increased over the last five years to similar levels seen in 2011.

Since 2016, overall long-term immigration to the UK for work has continued to decrease and looking at all available data sources, this has mainly been due to the fall in EU immigration to the UK for work. For non-EU citizens, since 2015, work-related immigration to the UK has remained broadly stable, however, the number of skilled work visas issued has been increasing._

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ns/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/may2019 

Next release is 22/08/19 - let's see what that says.
		
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My Polish physio advises 'our' zero hour/gig economy no longer cuts it as an attraction to remain working here...


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## drdel (Aug 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			if it's so simple just leave then. This head in sand attitude that leaving the EU is akin to simply walking out of a room and closing the door behind you is so frustrating. Instead of bleating Leave means Leave, Leavers need to find solutions to the many things holding us back from leaving. Seems Boris and Tories can't do that. You will need to break up the UK for one for a workable sea border down Irish sea, a land border is required but isn't acceptable within the island of Ireland, so if Brexit is so important why are leave led Tories not being proactive in that instead of resisting for example? They want it all ways but are offering no real solutions to why we haven't left, just blame shifting now to either EU or Theresa May as they can't do what they promised would be so easy 4 years ago.
Brexiteers own this and have taken over Govt. Up to them to find solutions good enough to get a parliamentary majority to see it through.
Infighting in Tory party is running so deep now I don't think Boris can win in Commons for No Deal or win an overall majority at next GE unless he gets a deal. However EU have an agreed if unratified WA and they're not shifting from that. 27 sticking together, not unsurprising.

Something major has to give soon.
		
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You may have missed the fact but parliament voted and triggered Article 50 and started the process in law.


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## User62651 (Aug 14, 2019)

drdel said:



			You may have missed the fact but parliament voted and triggered Article 50 and started the process in law.
		
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You didn't address anything with that pointless sarcasm.


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## drdel (Aug 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			You didn't address anything with that pointless sarcasm.
		
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There are over 10,000 posts in this thread - at a guess probably in the region of 50% will have contents that address the issues you repeated.


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## ger147 (Aug 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			You didn't address anything with that pointless sarcasm.
		
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I think the point may have been that legally, there doesn't have to be any more votes in the HoC's for a No Deal to take place.

Politically is a different story of course as a majority of MP's are opposed to a no deal Brexit, but legislation wise Boris doesn't need any more votes for a No Deal to happen.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Have you a link to support that statement.  The most recent ONS stats on immigration (24/05/19) say the following:

_EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013. Non-EU long-term immigration has gradually increased over the last five years to similar levels seen in 2011._

_Since 2016, overall long-term immigration to the UK for work has continued to decrease and looking at all available data sources, this has mainly been due to the fall in EU immigration to the UK for work. For non-EU citizens, since 2015, work-related immigration to the UK has remained broadly stable, however, the number of skilled work visas issued has been increasing._

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ns/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/may2019

Next release is 22/08/19 - let's see what that says.
		
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OK, 202,000 people came to the UK, last year from the EU, this represents an increase of 4% on the total.


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## User62651 (Aug 14, 2019)

drdel said:



			There are over 10,000 posts in this thread - at a guess probably in the region of 50% will have contents that address the issues you repeated.
		
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My response was to Fade and Die's Leave picture in post 11002 a couple of posts before mine. Maybe you should remind him that his message also been repeated over and over?

Your lot own this problem as you created it. You have the man you want in charge with his stooges in cabinet and some unelected 'tactician' calling the shots. 
So now's the time, you wanted this so sort it out......if you can.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 14, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			NEW: Preferred Brexit outcome, updated: Remain in the EU 43% (+2) Leave the EU with a deal 29% (+2) Leave the EU without a deal19% (-6) Donâ€™t know 9% (+2) changes w/ May 2019 (link: https://www.survation.com/general-election-voting-intention-and-brexit-preferences-poll/) survation.com/general-electiâ€¦

If my maths are correct thats Remain = 43, Leave = 48.
		
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In some parts of the UK in a different referendum the press headline would be screaming ' New poll shows massive support for Remain as majority reject Leave'


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			My response was to Fade and Die's Leave picture in post 11002 a couple of posts before mine. Maybe you should remind him that his message also been repeated over and over?

Your lot own this problem as you created it. You have the man you want in charge with his stooges in cabinet and some unelected 'tactician' calling the shots.
So now's the time, you wanted this so sort it out......if you can.
		
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You are honestly asking some people on a golf forum to 'sort out Brexit'  really!  You and other leavers opposition and castigation of people wanting to leave the EU  has been repeated over and over.
Your description of unelected tactitions calling the shots applies to every political party in the UK.

Sorting it out would be easy if it wasnt for the remainers wish to thwart leaving by absolutely any means they can conjure up.

Get a bit of balance please.


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## Hobbit (Aug 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is this just back to the same old argument that the 48% should just shut up and not point out what they believe is the madness in a no deal Brexit?

I imagine in a general/local election people will still accept the results, and if they feel strongly enough will actively work to change the result in 4 or 5 years time. However it seems that people perceive the current situation as very different.

It's a bit different to whether Anna Soubry or Nick Palmer gets in, whether Labour Councillor Adams or Green Councillor James gets in. It's a bit more important than that and will define our politics, economy and it seems increasingly what we are as a nation for years to come. Politics seems no longer to be red V blue but leave V remain. So total deference to privately educated cabinet ministers who arguably could be said to have some personal power issues that may override governing in the best interests of the whole nation, seems to be less relevant to some.

And extrapolating that we are now a nation of spoilt brats who will refuse to accept any legally binding election from now on is reductive at best.
		
Click to expand...

And you prove the point I made. As for your reductive bit, which youâ€™ve used before, Iâ€™ve seen you use the reductive argument yourself on occasion but couldnâ€™t be bothered responding because of your supercilious responses when someone highlights the flaws in your arguments.

The entitlement theme runs through so much of society now, and if you wonâ€™t acknowledge itâ€™s there... maybe instead of suggesting itâ€™s a reductive argument, maybe you look in the mirror.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			My response was to Fade and Die's Leave picture in post 11002 a couple of posts before mine. Maybe you should remind him that his message also been repeated over and over?

Your lot own this problem as you created it. You have the man you want in charge with his stooges in cabinet and some unelected 'tactician' calling the shots.
So now's the time, you wanted this so sort it out......*if you can*.
		
Click to expand...

Aye and thereâ€™s the rub. A remainer parliament is doing everything in its power to prevent it. 

And talking of Stooges I give you John Bercow the â€œimpartialâ€ speaker who has said he will â€œfight with every breathâ€ to prevent a no deal Brexit. So although we do have the man we want in charge it seems he is being blocked by remainers.

My preference? Call a general election. Boris positions himself as the only genuine leaver so hopefully mops up the Brexit party votes. Bit of a quandary for the millions of labour leavers though. Be interesting to see what way they vote. I think Boris would win with a majority of 40.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 14, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Aye and thereâ€™s the rub. A remainer parliament is doing everything in its power to prevent it.

And talking of Stooges I give you John Bercow the â€œimpartialâ€ speaker who has said he will â€œfight with every breathâ€ to prevent a no deal Brexit. So although we do have the man we want in charge it seems he is being blocked by remainers.

My preference? Call a general election. Boris positions himself as the only genuine leaver so hopefully mops up the Brexit party votes. Bit of a quandary for the millions of labour leavers though. Be interesting to see what way they vote. I think Boris would win with a majority of 40.
		
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Teresa thought that.
That never went well.
Nobodyâ€™s prepared to move so I can see it getting worse.
Itâ€™s a mess but staying in is not an option as we voted to leave.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 14, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Teresa thought that.
That never went well.
Nobodyâ€™s prepared to move so I can see it getting worse.
Itâ€™s a mess but staying in is not an option as we voted to leave.
		
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T tried to get through the worst manifesto in history on the strength that Corbyn is unelectable, she got that badly wrong. Think it would be very different now. 
Agree your last sentence BTW


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, 202,000 people came to the UK, last year from the EU, this represents an increase of 4% on the total.
		
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I can't see the figure of 202,000 in the ONS report from May 2019 and so I'm unable to reconcile your increase of 4% with the ONS statement that
_EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013_.   Can you link me to where you found or calculated the 202,000 figure.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 14, 2019)

good summary here :

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-08-14...ree-that-brexit-talks-are-dead-robert-peston/


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## ger147 (Aug 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can't see the figure of 202,000 in the ONS report from May 2019 and so I'm unable to reconcile your increase of 4% with the ONS statement that
_EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013_.   Can you link me to where you found or calculated the 202,000 figure.
		
Click to expand...

A figure of 202,000 gets a mention in this article, that may be what the other poster was referring to.

https://www.ft.com/content/46ac0fa6-7e02-11e9-81d2-f785092ab560


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And you prove the point I made. As for your reductive bit, which youâ€™ve used before, Iâ€™ve seen you use the reductive argument yourself on occasion but couldnâ€™t be bothered responding because of your supercilious responses when someone highlights the flaws in your arguments.

The entitlement theme runs through so much of society now, and if you wonâ€™t acknowledge itâ€™s there... maybe instead of suggesting itâ€™s a reductive argument, maybe you look in the mirror.
		
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Sorry for questioning in your point, whatever it was. Won't happen again.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 14, 2019)

Hope Boris has the stones to carry it out....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...s-publics-support-shut-parliament-get-brexit/

Not surprised It has public support though. Majority of people sickened by the way this parliament has acted.


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## Mudball (Aug 14, 2019)

So govt blames prev govt for lying .. hang on, the prev govt was them ..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1161577724487454722


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## ger147 (Aug 14, 2019)

Some very interesting numbers in a new opinion poll:

https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/12/peop...ment-push-no-deal-brexit-poll-shows-10560183/

Illustrates some of the issues with opinion polls perfectly, 54% of people in favour of proroguing parliament to allow a No Deal Brexit but 51% in favour of stopping Brexit if issues over the NI border threaten to split up the Union.  It seems the great British public are just as conflicted as our MP's.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 14, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Some very interesting numbers in a new opinion poll:

https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/12/peop...ment-push-no-deal-brexit-poll-shows-10560183/

Illustrates some of the issues with opinion polls perfectly, 54% of people in favour of proroguing parliament to allow a No Deal Brexit but 51% in favour of stopping Brexit if issues over the NI border threaten to split up the Union.  It seems the great British public are just as conflicted as our MP's.
		
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MPs are used to ignoring the public.
But Brexit splits the partyâ€™s so lots of labour voters want to leave / stay ,,same for all partyâ€™s.
You only have to look at party manifestos off all governments to see how much they change their minds./lie.

Teressa and Phil have had a go at negotiating with the EU and got a Hand in the face.
So another way is necessary.
No deal is not ideal but both of them said â€œitâ€™s better than a bad dealâ€
Now he has changed his mind.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can't see the figure of 202,000 in the ONS report from May 2019 and so I'm unable to reconcile your increase of 4% with the ONS statement that
_EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013_.   Can you link me to where you found or calculated the 202,000 figure.
		
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The number hasn't reduced, the increase is smaller.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And excluding don't knows.  Remain = 47.3%, Leave = 52.7%

So basically identical to the referendum outcome.

But only *19% choose *the _No Deal_ option - that option now seemingly being passively pursued by the government (as their negotiation pre-condition effectively rules out negotiation).

So less than 1 in 5 of the electorate expressing an opinion choose the option to leave with No Deal.  And yet forcing such through - with or without parliamentary approval - is thought to be acceptable and somehow democratic and reflecting the 'will of the people'?   Maybe all 'dealers' would prefer 'no deal' to 'remain' - and I have no doubt that many would.  But we don't actually know that.  And polls are just polls.  Maybe the electorate should be asked.

Though weirdly the Survation polls also finds 55:45 split Remain:Leave in the event of another referendum...but that's just a poll.
		
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Never miss an opportunity , eh.

As only 48% of those polled voted to leave, that 19% actually represents about 40% of the leave voters, so the split on leaving with deal or no deal isn't that far away from the referendum result.  But never let the facts get in the way of your personal agenda.


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## chrisd (Aug 14, 2019)

I keep hearing "nobody voted to leave with no deal" but I'm sure the voting paper didnt ask that question any more than it didnt ask "should we only leave with a deal"


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## Parsaregood (Aug 14, 2019)

It's really quite simple, if one is to negotiate one has to be prepared to walk away in order to get the best deal. If you want a deal you cannot take no deal off the table and no deal was a scenario spoken about at length by many leading remainers during the campaign, much to the denial of many of them even though interviews have now surfaced with many of them speaking about it. It's like buying a car, if the price is too high or something isnt quite right you walk away.

   My guess is that a deal will be done in the last 48 hours when the EU realises it has no choice. Theresa May should be ashamed the way she and her cabinet handled the negotiations over the last 3 years, its an absolute disgrace. Thank God Boris at least has the balls to tell it how it is and I believe him when he says we will leave on the the 31st. His public questions today were refreshing to hear and also a very good way of keeping in touch with ordinary people, long may it continue.


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## Parsaregood (Aug 14, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I keep hearing "nobody voted to leave with no deal" but I'm sure the voting paper didnt ask that question any more than it didnt ask "should we only leave with a deal"
		
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Leading remainers spoke at length about the implications of voting leave including the likely possibility of a no deal WTO outcome at the end of the 2 years. Too many politicians are refusing to accept the result and are trying to undermine democracy, I hope every one of them lose their jobs at the end of this parliamentary term. Untrustworthy and also not worthy of speaking for and representing the people of our country


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Leading remainers spoke at length about the implications of voting leave including the likely possibility of a no deal WTO outcome at the end of the 2 years. Too many politicians are refusing to accept the result and are trying to undermine democracy, I hope every one of them lose their jobs at the end of this parliamentary term. Untrustworthy and also not worthy of speaking for and representing the people of our country
		
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That's correct. We were told time and time again that a leave vote meant leaving the single market, customs union and EU institutions.  It just seems like remainers feel entitled to their wishes having more value than leavers even though the vote went to leave.


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## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Leading remainers spoke at length about the implications of voting leave including the likely possibility of a no deal WTO outcome at the end of the 2 years. *Too many politicians are refusing to accept the result and are trying to undermine democracy*, I hope every one of them lose their jobs at the end of this parliamentary term. Untrustworthy and also not worthy of speaking for and representing the people of our country
		
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While they may be 'refusing to accept the result', they are in no way 'trying to undermine democracy'! Simply use their democratic rights - and position/s - to achieve their aims. And that's their democratic right, just as it's yours to (say) boot them out when/if you can!


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## Parsaregood (Aug 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While they may be 'refusing to accept the result', they are in no way 'trying to undermine democracy'! Simply use their democratic rights - and position/s - to achieve their aims. And that's their democratic right, just as it's yours to (say) boot them out when/if you can!
		
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There is nothing democratic about trying to ignore a referendum with s clear mandate to deliver leave, the new Lib Dem leader has also said she would not accept a second referendum result if it produced a leave outcome, its laughable and also deeply worrying people like this have gotten so high up in politics


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## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's correct. We were told time and time again that a leave vote meant leaving the single market, customs union and EU institutions.  It just seems like remainers feel entitled to their wishes having more value than leavers even though the vote went to leave.
		
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I disagree! 

Just as Remainers (seem to have) made less noise about the 'good' parts of EU membership (compsred to Leavers noise about the 'bad' parts) pre-Referendum, the roles have now reversed. And it's pretty natural for the 'noisy protesters' to (seem to?) be given more publicity than the 'currently content non-protesters'! And the news media unconsciousl contributes to that 'imbalance' too!


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## Parsaregood (Aug 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I disagree! 

Just as Remainers (seem to have) made less noise about the 'good' parts of EU membership (compsred to Leavers noise about the 'bad' parts) pre-Referendum, the roles have now reversed. And it's pretty natural for the 'noisy protesters' to (seem to?) be given more publicity than the 'currently content non-protesters'! And the news media unconsciousl contributes to that 'imbalance' too!
		
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You disagree that countless remainers who campaigned speaking in 2016 saying a no deal WTO outcome was a genuine possibility even though footage has now appeared with many of them speaking of it. The sad thing is a few of them deny this was ever spoken about !


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## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			There is nothing democratic about trying to ignore a referendum with s clear mandate to deliver leave, the new Lib Dem leader has also said she would not accept a second referendum result if it produced a leave outcome, its laughable and also deeply worrying people like this have gotten so high up in politics
		
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For me, in a democracy, if it's no illegal to do something, then it's a democratic right to do so! Vote them out, if you can, by all means - that's your democratic right. Say they are abusing their position if you want (I'm ambivalent on that!). But a fundamental part of UK Democracy (The Court System) has decreed that it's Parliament that is the 'final arbiter'! It's now up to the Government to ensure that that happens! That's how UK Democracy works!


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## Parsaregood (Aug 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			For me, in a democracy, if it's no illegal to do something, then it's a democratic right to do so! Vote them out, if you can, by all means - that's your democratic right. Say they are abusing their position if you want (I'm ambivalent on that!). But a fundamental part of UK Democracy (The Court System) has decreed that it's Parliament that is the 'final arbiter'! It's now up to the Government to ensure that that happens! That's how UK Democracy works!
		
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It's also not illegal for Boris to schedule an election after October 31st, therefore leaving on WTO terms by default. You are quite happy that's s democratic right ? ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			You disagree that countless remainers who campaigned speaking in 2016 saying a no deal WTO outcome was a genuine possibility even though footage has now appeared with many of them speaking of it. The sad thing is a few of them deny this was ever spoken about !
		
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No! 

You've (deliberately) misinterpreted my statement.

I disagreed with SR's opinion, then explained why!


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## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			It's also not illegal for Boris to schedule an election after October 31st, therefore leaving on WTO terms by default. You are quite happy that's s democratic right ? ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‚
		
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Yep!

You are confusing what he is able to do with what (you believe) 'is best for the country'!


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## Parsaregood (Aug 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yep!

You are confusing what he is able to do with what (you believe) 'is best for the country'!
		
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He is able to do that, I do also believe it to be best but he can do that legally and it's very possible a situation very similar to this will play out with the EU try to compromise in the very last days leading up to the 31st.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I disagree!

Just as Remainers (seem to have) made less noise about the 'good' parts of EU membership (compsred to Leavers noise about the 'bad' parts) pre-Referendum, the roles have now reversed. And it's pretty natural for the 'noisy protesters' to (seem to?) be given more publicity than the 'currently content non-protesters'! And the news media unconsciousl contributes to that 'imbalance' too!
		
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Do you disagree we were told a vote to leave meant leaving the EU institutions?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's correct. We were told time and time again that a leave vote meant leaving the single market, customs union and EU institutions.  It just seems like remainers feel entitled to their wishes having more value than leavers even though the vote went to leave.
		
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Oh for goodness sake - and we were told time and time again that everything the Remain campaign was saying about this was a lie - scaremongering - project fear.  So you are now pretending that those who voted to Leave did so *believing *what the Remain campaign was saying and *disbelieving *what Leave was saying..get real.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			It's also not illegal for Boris to schedule an election after October 31st, therefore leaving on WTO terms by default. You are quite happy that's s democratic right ? ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‚
		
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For us much as we have an unwritten constitution it is by convention unconstitutional.  But none of that stuff seems to matter any more.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh for goodness sake - and we were told time and time again that everything the Remain campaign was saying about this was a lie - scaremongering - project fear.  So you are now pretending that those who voted to Leave did so *believing *what the Remain campaign was saying and *disbelieving *what Leave was saying..get real.
		
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I am refering to what the Government told us would happen, not what someone down the pub said. Leaving the EU institutions was not project fear, project fear was 800,000 job losses, a severe economic shock, each family being Â£3,500 worse off , refugee camps in Dover etc the moment we had a leave vote ðŸ™„ Get real yourself matey


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## Parsaregood (Aug 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh for goodness sake - and we were told time and time again that everything the Remain campaign was saying about this was a lie - scaremongering - project fear.  So you are now pretending that those who voted to Leave did so *believing *what the Remain campaign was saying and *disbelieving *what Leave was saying..get real.
		
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Just about everything the pro-EU remain politicians predicted has so far turned out to be incorrect, I think the problem is nobody ever believed them and now over the last 3 years most people have lost respect for them for the poor conduct they have shown. I can at least respect Cameron, he did what he said he was going to do, walk away if his side lost the referendum. Its a shame so many others on his side cannot show the same dignity


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am refering to what the Government told us would happen, not what someone down the pub said.  Get real yourself matey
		
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No no no. Can't have that sorry.

Leave campaigners said endlessly that what the government and the Remain campaign were saying was exaggerations; lies and Project Fear. Leave told us that should not and cannot believe what the government was telling us. No pretending now that Leave voters *believed *what they were being told by the government and *disbelieved *the Leave campaign.  No - Leave voters believed what the Leave campaign said.  That there would great deal to come; cake and eat it; they need us more than we need them; german car manufacturers etc etc.


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## Parsaregood (Aug 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No no no. Can't have that sorry.

Leave campaigners said endlessly that what the government and the Remain campaign were saying was exaggerations; lies and Project Fear. Leave told us that should not and cannot believe what the government was telling us. No pretending now that Leave voters *believed *what they were being told by the government and *disbelieved *the Leave campaign.  No - Leave voters believed what the Leave campaign said.  That there would great deal to come; cake and eat it; they need us more than we need them; german car manufacturers etc etc.
		
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The leave campaign did not explicitly peddle the argument you state, very selective in what you are saying here. If you believe the German government will allow the biggest importer of their cars in the world to be subject to tariffs not already in place your crazy, I can assure you this will not happen, far too much financial loss and uncertainty for an already flailing German economy.


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## Hobbit (Aug 14, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Just about everything the pro-EU remain politicians predicted has so far turned out to be incorrect, I think the problem is nobody ever believed them and now over the last 3 years most people have lost respect for them for the poor conduct they have shown. I can at least respect Cameron, he did what he said he was going to do, walk away if his side lost the referendum. Its a shame so many others on his side cannot show the same dignity
		
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Not just the politicians. I believe the Gov of the Bank of England has actually admitted he was wrong. But don't worry, some arrogant super-intelligent zealot Remainer will be along shortly to tell you you are thick/old etc.


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## User62651 (Aug 14, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Just about everything the pro-EU remain politicians predicted has so far turned out to be incorrect, I think the problem is nobody ever believed them and now over the last 3 years most people have lost respect for them for the poor conduct they have shown. I can at least respect Cameron, he did what he said he was going to do, walk away if his side lost the referendum. Its a shame so many others on his side cannot show the same dignity
		
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Sorry to nitpick but Cameron said he would stay as PM no matter the result, then walked away just as his gamble backfired, he did not keep his word and allowed the Maybot into no. 10, no respect is due there.


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## Hobbit (Aug 14, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sorry for questioning in your point, whatever it was. Won't happen again.
		
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If you missed the point its obvious that not only leavers are thick.

Seriously though. Question away, please, but question it with something meaningful and original, not superficial. Remainers must keep Leavers honest, and vice versa.

As for your silly question about No Deal, obviously everybody and their dog wants a good deal... but that's where you started to look a little foolish. 

I don't want to Leave. Its already costing me hundreds a month as I transfer my pension, and thats without all the other benefits of being in, e.g. healthcare and freedom to travel around Europe as I meander my way back to the UK occasionally.

I refer you back to my post about looking at the questions. But if you can't do that, you're stance is already cast in stone. That would be a shame as there's good on both sides, if you can be bothered to look.


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## Parsaregood (Aug 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Sorry to nitpick but Cameron said he would stay as PM no matter the result, then walked away just as his gamble backfired, he did not keep his word and allowed the Maybot into no. 10, no respect is due there.
		
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He walked away because he didn't believe in what was being asked of him, I can respect that


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## Hobbit (Aug 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No no no. Can't have that sorry.

Leave campaigners said endlessly that what the government and the Remain campaign were saying was exaggerations; lies and Project Fear. Leave told us that should not and cannot believe what the government was telling us. No pretending now that Leave voters *believed *what they were being told by the government and *disbelieved *the Leave campaign.  No - Leave voters believed what the Leave campaign said.  That there would great deal to come; cake and eat it; they need us more than we need them; german car manufacturers etc etc.
		
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Can you give me the lottery numbers. 

You know what 17.2 million people believe? Really?

As a Remainer I believed Cameron et al that a vote for Leave would mean leaving the SM and CU. I believed that a vote for Leave would mean leaving AND THEN getting a deal. That's my version, and no doubt there's countless versions thereafter depending on why people chose to Remain or Leave.

But, as usual, you know why every single Leaver voted, what they believed and what they didn't believe.

I suggest its you that needs to get real. You absolutely do not know why different people voted the way they did, do you?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No no no. Can't have that sorry.

Leave campaigners said endlessly that what the government and the Remain campaign were saying was exaggerations; lies and Project Fear. Leave told us that should not and cannot believe what the government was telling us. No pretending now that Leave voters *believed *what they were being told by the government and *disbelieved *the Leave campaign.  No - Leave voters believed what the Leave campaign said.  That there would great deal to come; cake and eat it; they need us more than we need them; german car manufacturers etc etc.
		
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Leaving the EU institutions was not project fear, project fear was 800,000 job losses, a severe economic shock, each family being Â£3,500 worse off , refugee camps in Dover etc the moment we had a leave vote.  You are trying to group it all into project fear which is wrong, being told we would leave the single market and customs union was a statement of political intent and you know it.


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## ger147 (Aug 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Can you give me the lottery numbers. 

You know what 17.2 million people believe? Really?

As a Remainer I believed Cameron et al that a vote for Leave would mean leaving the SM and CU. I believed that a vote for Leave would mean leaving AND THEN getting a deal. That's my version, and no doubt there's countless versions thereafter depending on why people chose to Remain or Leave.

But, as usual, you know why every single Leaver voted, what they believed and what they didn't believe.

I suggest its you that needs to get real. You absolutely do not know why different people voted the way they did, do you?
		
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Cue the James O'Brien references...


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## Foxholer (Aug 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you disagree we were told a vote to leave meant leaving the EU institutions?
		
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Certainly by some of them.

We were told all sorts of things - by politicians!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Certainly by some of them.

We were told all sorts of things - by politicians!
		
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I'm referring to the Prime Minister.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 15, 2019)

Jezza  the red makes a move



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1161757839557349381


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## Hobbit (Aug 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Cue the James O'Brien references... 

Click to expand...

Heard JO'B interviewing Rees-Mogg recently. Mogg certainly isn't of my political leaning but having seen a few Mogg pieces in recent times, e.g. him pinning Verhofstadt down in a Commons Select meeting, I thought it might be an interesting battle.

Mogg, like any politician, didn't answer every question but, equally, he was very specific in some of his answers. I'd say Mogg won the battle 60/40, but what it did show was that when JO'B was faced with someone at least his equal in debating he, JO'B, is a snidey little schoolyard bully.

There are far better Remain debaters out there but, unfortunately, they are being increasingly drowned out by the hysterical ones panicking about Johnson's Oct 31st "do or die." For example, I like a lot of what Mark Carney says but, sadly, he's often quoted out of context for effect.


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## Parsaregood (Aug 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Heard JO'B interviewing Rees-Mogg recently. Mogg certainly isn't of my political leaning but having seen a few Mogg pieces in recent times, e.g. him pinning Verhofstadt down in a Commons Select meeting, I thought it might be an interesting battle.

Mogg, like any politician, didn't answer every question but, equally, he was very specific in some of his answers. I'd say Mogg won the battle 60/40, but what it did show was that when JO'B was faced with someone at least his equal in debating he, JO'B, is a snidey little schoolyard bully.

There are far better Remain debaters out there but, unfortunately, they are being increasingly drowned out by the hysterical ones panicking about Johnson's Oct 31st "do or die." For example, I like a lot of what Mark Carney says but, sadly, he's often quoted out of context for effect.
		
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It's an insult to call JO'B a decent debater, he has an interviewing style which is all too common these days. When the interviewee answers strongly or disproves something you talk over them cutting their answer off or slightly rewording the same question. Why LBC employ him is beyond me, doesn't like to hear any argument but his own


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## robinthehood (Aug 15, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			It's an insult to call JO'B a decent debater, he has an interviewing style which is all too common these days. When the interviewee answers strongly or disproves something you talk over them cutting their answer off or slightly rewording the same question. Why LBC employ him is beyond me, doesn't like to hear any argument but his own
		
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Sounds like hed fit in well in the forum ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## spongebob59 (Aug 15, 2019)

So the Lib Dems have another 2 faced ex Tory/Change member


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1161895296571330560
Who said that if you move to another party (twice) you should have a bye election


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1161884291439190016


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## Foxholer (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For us much as we have an unwritten constitution it is by convention unconstitutional.  But none of that stuff seems to matter any more.
		
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What 'convention'? Is there a precedent? Or perhaps an 'equivalent situation'?


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## Foxholer (Aug 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm referring to the Prime Minister.
		
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Are you suggesting the PM is/was not a politician?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			What 'convention'? Is there a precedent? Or perhaps an 'equivalent situation'?
		
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My understanding is that whilst there is no written constitution there are conventions set out in the Cabinet Manual

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cabinet-manual

In context of what is written in the Cabinet Manual, Corbyn asked Sir Mark Sedwill in respect of leaving on 31/10 if a GE is called for 1/11.

_Purdah guidance makes clear that 'decisions on matters of policy on which a new government might be expected to want the opportunity to take a different view from the present government should be postponed until after the election, provided that such postponement would not be detrimental to the national interest or wasteful of public money'.  _

Sedwill has said it will be dealt with in accordance with the rules and conventions in the context of the time it arises.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			It's an insult to call JO'B a decent debater, he has an interviewing style which is all too common these days. When the interviewee answers strongly or disproves something you talk over them cutting their answer off or slightly rewording the same question. Why LBC employ him is beyond me, doesn't like to hear any argument but his own
		
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Which may be true - sometimes - but most of the time he interrupts is when the caller is talking unfounded or incorrect tripe, and he will continue to ask the salient question when a caller refuses to answer it,  and there is noting wrong with that.  So his style is more to let such Leave callers 'dig their own grave', or let them argue their own way to the Remain position.  And that actually happens quite a lot or the caller gets very angry as he or she finds themselves heading that way.


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## Foxholer (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My understanding is that whilst there is no written constitution there are conventions set out in the Cabinet Manual

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cabinet-manual

Corbyn asked Sir Mark Sedwill on this in respect of leaving on 31/10 if a GE is called for 1/11.

_Purdah guidance makes clear that 'decisions on matters of policy on which a new government might be expected to want the opportunity to take a different view from the present government should be postponed until after the election, provided that such postponement would not be detrimental to the national interest or wasteful of public money'.  _

Sedwill has said it will be dealt with in accordance with the rules and conventions in the context of the time it arises.
		
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Thanks for that info.

I had somehow missed the creation/existence of that manual!

Of course, the 'National Interest clause COULD be argued, but I believe that would scupper any Tory aspirations for remaining in Government, so unlikely!


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## chrisd (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which may be true - sometimes - but most of the time he interrupts is when the caller is talking unfounded or incorrect tripe, and he will continue to ask the salient question when a caller refuses to answer it,  and there is noting wrong with that.  So his style is more to let such Leave callers 'dig their own grave', or let them argue their own way to the Remain position.  And that actually happens quite a lot or the caller gets very angry as he or she finds themselves heading that way.
		
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Now I've never listened to JO'B, who ever he is, but I really dont want to listen to interviewers who only have THEIR agenda and try and force a committed leavers or remainers to be forced to troll out JO'Bs mantra by badgering or hectoring. Most interviewers I see now on the, deeply one sided, BBC dont let people they are interviewing answer the question if it doesn't fit in with the BBC bias.


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## jp5 (Aug 15, 2019)

A flavour of Brexit Britain


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1161747086616010752


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## MegaSteve (Aug 15, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Now I've never listened to JO'B, who ever he is, but I really dont want to listen to interviewers who only have THEIR agenda and try and force a committed leavers or remainers to be forced to troll out JO'Bs mantra by badgering or hectoring. Most interviewers I see now on the, deeply one sided, BBC dont let people they are interviewing answer the question if it doesn't fit in with the BBC bias.
		
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Believe you may be overlooking the pleasures of watching Andrew Neil slicing 'n dicing remainers...


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## Fade and Die (Aug 15, 2019)

jp5 said:



			A flavour of Brexit Britain


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1161747086616010752

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As tedious as I find the spoon faced St Greta of Thunberg Banks is a massive tool.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Heard JO'B interviewing Rees-Mogg recently. Mogg certainly isn't of my political leaning but having seen a few Mogg pieces in recent times, e.g. him pinning Verhofstadt down in a Commons Select meeting, I thought it might be an interesting battle.

Mogg, like any politician, didn't answer every question but, equally, he was very specific in some of his answers. I'd say Mogg won the battle 60/40, but what it did show was that when JO'B was faced with someone at least his equal in debating he, JO'B, is a snidey little schoolyard bully.

There are far better Remain debaters out there but, unfortunately, they are being increasingly drowned out by the hysterical ones panicking about Johnson's Oct 31st "do or die." For example, I like a lot of what Mark Carney says but, sadly, he's often quoted out of context for effect.
		
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Even worse they have David Lammy on instead today


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## chrisd (Aug 15, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Even worse they have David Lammy on instead today 

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An absolute pillock!


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## MegaSteve (Aug 15, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Even worse they have David Lammy on instead today 

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If it's about his views on 'knife crime' I might be interested in listening... Believe he had some pertinent points at the time of the 2011 riots... Unlike our #clueless Mayor Boris...


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## SocketRocket (Aug 15, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Are you suggesting the PM is/was not a politician?
		
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No!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Thanks for that info.

I had somehow missed the creation/existence of that manual!

Of course, the 'National Interest clause COULD be argued, but I believe that would scupper any Tory aspirations for remaining in Government, so unlikely!
		
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The thinking is that they WILL argue that leaving is in the 'National Interest'...well maybe at some time it might be - but during an election period...little bit harder to argue that just because it is politically expedient to do something does not mean that it is necessarily in the National Interest


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## ger147 (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The thinking is that they WILL argue that leaving is in the 'National Interest'...well maybe at some time it might be - but during an election period...little bit harder to argue that just because it is politically expedient to do something does not mean that it is necessarily in the National Interest
		
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The counter argument is that the decision to leave on the 31st October has already been taken, as per current UK and EU legislation already in place.

I very much doubt the objection under purdah rules will fly IMO as the opposition want to change current legislation as opposed to stopping the government taking decisions. The HoC's has already voted to leave on 31st October.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Now I've never listened to JO'B, who ever he is, but I really dont want to listen to interviewers who only have THEIR agenda and try and force a committed leavers or remainers to be forced to troll out JO'Bs mantra by badgering or hectoring. Most interviewers I see now on the, deeply one sided, BBC dont let people they are interviewing answer the question if it doesn't fit in with the BBC bias.
		
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Well maybe you could try listening to the views of committed leave voters who phone in...quite awful/awesome at times.


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## chrisd (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well maybe you could try listening to the views of committed leave voters who phone in...quite awful/awesome at times.
		
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The views of leavers and remainers  are often equally poorly argued I've no plan to listen to any on a radio station as I've  heard pretty well every argument over 3 years and know exactly what I believe and what I dont


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The counter argument is that the decision to leave on the 31st October has already been taken, as per current UK and EU legislation already in place.

I very much doubt the objection under purdah rules will fly IMO as the opposition want to change current legislation as opposed to stopping the government taking decisions. *The HoC's has already voted to leave on 31st October*.
		
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When was that - can't remember that happening.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

chrisd said:



			The views of leavers and remainers  are often equally poorly argued I've no plan to listen to any on a radio station as I've  heard pretty well every argument over 3 years and know exactly what I believe and what I dont
		
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Well maybe you could try sometime listening to the logic of why some of the electorate voted to leave - and you will hear how uninformed and misguided their views can be - not their fault - and it doesn't make them stupid - but the fault of those who spun the misinformation and deceits over the years and decades.  And maybe then you'll understand a bit better why folks like me think as we do.


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## ger147 (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			When was that - can't remember that happening.
		
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The HoC's voted in favour of legislation to leave the EU on 29th March. They subsequently voted in favour of changing that date to 31st October.

As someone who has followed this process very closely, I know you already know that. If you claim that you don't know that then you are a liar.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The HoC's voted in favour of legislation to leave the EU on 29th March. They subsequently voted in favour of changing that date to 31st October.

As someone who has followed this process very closely, I know you already know that. If you claim that you don't know that then you are a liar.
		
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I had forgotten.  I am not a liar.


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## ger147 (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I had forgotten.  I am not a liar.
		
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You had NOT forgotten...


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## chrisd (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well maybe you could try sometime listening to the logic of why some of the electorate voted to leave - and you will hear how uninformed and misguided their views can be - not their fault - and it doesn't make them stupid - but the fault of those who spun the misinformation and deceits over the years and decades.  And maybe then you'll understand a bit better why folks like me think as we do.
		
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I know why you think the way you do - you believed the remain campaign lies


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## spongebob59 (Aug 15, 2019)

Meanwhile on planet libdumb :
Jo Swinson says - borrowing the No 10 phrase - that the Lib Dems will do â€œwhatever it takesâ€ to stop no deal Brexit. She says she will â€œwork with anyoneâ€ to block no deal.
Swinson unveils her preferred plan to block no deal - parliament forces govt to extent A50 and then hold a 2nd Brexit referendum. Would do this via no-confidence vote and some sort of national unity government. Sheâ€™s criticising Corbynâ€™s own stop Brexit plan.
Swinson says there is â€œno wayâ€ Corbyn could lead a government of national unity, as could not attract rebel Tories, or even all Labour MPs. She suggests Ken Clarke or Harriet Harman - respectively the father and mother of house. Says neither want to be in No 10 long term.

She forgot to add the only option on the 2nd referendum would be remain.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			You had NOT forgotten...
		
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I had.  I'd rather you didn't blithely make such accusations.


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## ger147 (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I had.  I'd rather you didn't blithely make such accusations.
		
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You did not forget...

Evidence? Your post where you quoted the cabinet manual had the date of the 31st October included, the date that came about as a result of the vote you claim to have forgotten about. So where did you think that date had come from?

I repeat, you did NOT forget!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			You did not forget...

Evidence? Your post where you quoted the cabinet manual had the date of the 31st October included, the date that came about as a result of the vote you claim to have forgotten about. So where did you think that date had come from?

I repeat, you did NOT forget!!
		
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I think you may have forgotten that I was in NZ, Australia and SE Asia from 1st Feb until 8th June.  Over that period I largely disconnected from UK politics and news.  Of course I heard that the UK did not leave and was aware of the extension from Australian TV news, but I did not get the detail or the debate over the extension and so don't actually know anything about the debate and the vote.

So when I said I could not remember, that was because I do not actually know about the nature of the debate and the vote on the extension, or indeed whether there had been any other vote subsequent to that one that you were referring to.  You have said that there was a further vote on the date - until you told me I did not know that.


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## ger147 (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think you may have forgotten that I was in NZ, Australia and SE Asia from 1st Feb until 8th June.  Over that period I largely disconnected from UK politics and news.  Of course I heard that the UK did not leave and was aware of the extension from Australian TV news, but I did not get the detail or the debate over the extension and so don't actually know anything about the debate and the vote.

So when I said I could not remember, that was because I do not actually know about the nature of the debate and the vote on the extension, or indeed whether there had been any other vote subsequent to that one that you were referring to.  You have said that there was a further vote on the date - until you told me I did not know that.
		
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We will have to agree to disagree, I do not believe you.


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## Hobbit (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which may be true - sometimes - but most of the time he interrupts is when the caller is talking unfounded or incorrect tripe, and he will continue to ask the salient question when a caller refuses to answer it,  and there is noting wrong with that.  So his style is more to let such Leave callers 'dig their own grave', or let them argue their own way to the Remain position.  And that actually happens quite a lot or the caller gets very angry as he or she finds themselves heading that way.
		
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I'm all for idiots of any persuasion being pulled up. But have a think about what you've posted there. You're quite happy for him to pull up the idiots, and why wouldn't anyone look to stop them. However, you have be inference, "which may be true," agreed that he isn't great with decent debaters. Seriously, step outside your zealot Remainer position and ask yourself does he really treat people respectfully.

He's a nasty piece of work and doesn't do the Remain position any good whatsoever. Anyone on the fence, looking to be persuaded either way will see a bully, and people seeing bullies often side with the person on the receiving end.

You need to find a better source.


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## drdel (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The thinking is that *they WILL argue that leaving is in the 'National Interes*t'...well maybe at some time it might be - but during an election period...little bit harder to argue that just because it is politically expedient to do something does not mean that it is necessarily in the National Interest
		
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Well I guess the referendum result is a fair indication of the public's view on what is in their interests.


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## Mudball (Aug 15, 2019)

Stats and lies? Looks like everyone will be hit.   Leavers can claim that Germany & France wont let it happen so a deal is around the corner..   Remainers dont need to prove much







Source:  https://www.statista.com/chart/1896...u-member-states-in-the-case-of-a-hard-brexit/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			W*e will have to agree to disagree*, I do not believe you.
		
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No we don't.  I am telling you honestly that as I was not paying that much attention to UK politics whilst I was away *I did not know what vote you were referring to.*  That is all I was saying when you mentioned that the HoC had voted to leave on 31/10.  

Of course I knew that we did not leave of the 23rd March, and of course I knew that an extension had been offered and accepted.  I did not, and actually still do not, know of the process, debates and votes around that time in respect of the extension.

As it happens - and not knowing anything about the debate - I suggest that the vote would have been to accept the extension to 31/10 - nothing more than that.   And that many, if not most, who would have voted to accept that change of date would have done so on the basis of giving more time for the government to negotiate a deal - not to leave on that date without a deal.  In fact they would have voted for the extension specifically with the aim of avoiding a no deal exit.

But I was not aware of the debate and of all subsequent votes relating to it.  I'm sure there is clear indication from the motion voted on, that the extension was voted through on the understanding that no further extension would be sought?


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## Foxholer (Aug 15, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The counter argument is that the decision to leave on the 31st October has already been taken, as per current UK and EU legislation already in place.

I very much doubt the objection under purdah rules will fly IMO as the opposition want to change current legislation as opposed to stopping the government taking decisions. *The HoC's has already voted to leave on 31st October*.
		
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Er. Can you please provide a link showing that VOTE!

As far as I am aware, there has bee no such (actual/specific) vote to do so. Though *the EFFECT of HoC vote*s - to invoke Article 50, then to request an extension (twice?) is to set a (default/no deal) leave date. And both dates were actually 'set' by the EU, not HoC.

So to call SILH a liar - as, I believe, you have done - for 'not remembering a vote' that never happened seems to me rather obscene!


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well maybe you could try sometime listening to the logic of why some of the electorate voted to Remain ,and you will hear how uninformed and misguided their views can be - not their fault - and it doesn't make them stupid - but the fault of those who spun the misinformation and deceits over the years and decades.  And maybe then you'll understand a bit better why folks like me think as we do.
		
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Fixed that.


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## ger147 (Aug 15, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er. Can you please provide a link showing that VOTE!

As far as I am aware, there has bee no such (actual/specific) vote to do so. Though *the EFFECT of HoC vote*s - to invoke Article 50, then to request an extension (twice?) is to set a (default/no deal) leave date. And both dates were actually 'set' by the EU, not HoC.

So to call SILH a liar - as, I believe, you have done - for 'not remembering a vote' that never happened seems to me rather obscene!
		
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The votes to update the leaving date in the European Withdrawal Act in the HoC's can be found on the HoC's website. The date is included in the 2018 Withdrawal act and has been updated twice via secondary legislation to the current date of 31st October.

https://commonsvotes.digiminster.com


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## chrisd (Aug 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Stats and lies? Looks like everyone will be hit.   Leavers can claim that Germany & France wont let it happen so a deal is around the corner..   Remainers dont need to prove much







Source:  https://www.statista.com/chart/1896...u-member-states-in-the-case-of-a-hard-brexit/

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 If this is accurate I'd suggest the EU needs a deal with us as much as the other way round, so they'd better start talking


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## spongebob59 (Aug 15, 2019)

Tory rebellion latest â€” Guto Bebb explicitly backs PM Corbyn to stop no deal â€” Boles, Grieve, Letwin agree to meet with Corbyn to discuss his plan â€” *Ken Clarke agrees with the LibDems that he'd like to be PM *â€” but ex-rebel Caroline Spelman backtracks and now backs Johnson

WTF 


Guto Bebb backs Corbyn for PMâ€¦
_â€œI certainly take the view that a short-term Jeremy Corbyn government is less damaging than the generational damage that would be caused by a no-deal Brexit.â€_


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## spongebob59 (Aug 15, 2019)

LibDumb leader :

Iâ€™ve offered to meet Jeremy Corbyn to discuss how we can work together on a deliverable plan to stop no-deal, including the option of uniting behind an MP who can command a majority in the House. 
All the evidence is that Jeremy Corbyn does not have the support of enough Conservative MPs to command that majority, so I would urge him to be open to supporting alternative candidates for that role.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 15, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Stats and lies? Looks like everyone will be hit.   Leavers can claim that Germany & France wont let it happen so a deal is around the corner..   Remainers dont need to prove much







Source:  https://www.statista.com/chart/1896...u-member-states-in-the-case-of-a-hard-brexit/

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That's no problem. We just have to tell the EU that we will make sure that all of the 500k+ jobs that will be lost in the UK are all going to be EU citizens. Problem solved. ðŸ‘


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's no problem. We just have to tell the EU that we will make sure that all of the 500k+ jobs that will be lost in the UK are all going to be EU citizens. Problem solved. ðŸ‘
		
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Thing is - that's just not funny - and it would be illegal in it's discrimination.

Unfortunately if and when jobs are lost there will be quite a few who will be pointing fingers at EU citizens in work - and all who will have full right of residency - and asking why not *them*


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thing is - that's just not funny - and it would be illegal in it's discrimination..
		
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Oh get off your high horse. I thought it was funny so who are you to decide if it's funny or not? It was hardly a serious suggestion. But if it had been what are the EU going to do about it. If we've left with no deal then they can't take us to the ECJ as they won't have any power over us.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Oh get off your high horse. I thought it was funny so who are you to decide if it's funny or not? It was hardly a serious suggestion. But if it had been what are the EU going to do about it. If we've left with no deal then they can't take us to the ECJ as they won't have any power over us.
		
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I just hope none of those 1,000,000 people losing their jobs are not relatives or friends of yourself.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I just hope none of those 1,000,000 people losing their jobs are not relatives or friends of yourself.
		
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You appear to have (I suspect deliberately) chosen to omit the word predicted or forecast from your post. It's no wonder leavers get so fed up with remainers like you who continually post predictions as though they are absolute facts. Every time a forecast is published people like you make out that it is certain or guaranteed when in fact you have no idea.

Also the double negative in your sentence means that you hope they are all my family and friends that lose their jobs. But to put your mind at rest, it's not a problem I don't have 1 million family and friends.


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## Parsaregood (Aug 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			You appear to have (I suspect deliberately) chosen to omit the word predicted or forecast from your post. It's no wonder leavers get so fed up with remainers like you who continually post predictions as though they are absolute facts. Every time a forecast is published people like you make out that it is certain or guaranteed when in fact you have no idea.

Also the double negative in your sentence means that you hope they are all my family and friends that lose their jobs. But to put your mind at rest, it's not a problem I don't have 1 million family and friends.
		
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And how many of their predictions have proved to be correct, very few in fact we could probably say none. Project fear at its finest ðŸ˜‚


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## Fade and Die (Aug 15, 2019)

The naivety, or just plain head-in-the-sand mentality of both Remoaners and â€˜No to No-Dealâ€™ exponents is truly incredible! The EU have stated time and time again that NOTHING FURTHER IS NEGOTIABLE. What does it take to get this fact Into their heads?

If there is no room for negotiation and no leeway, then what other option is there except no bloody deal??

Ironically Barnierâ€™s deal gave Labour Remoaners virtually everything they wanted:

UK trapped in the Customs Union in perpetuity at the EUâ€™s pleasure, unable to make our own trade deals and no say in its operation. A fudge on the Single Market allowing a continuation of Free Movement in all but name. Subject to the ECJ for a minimum of 8 years with extension periods that could be extended infinitely. Whatâ€™s not for Labour to like?

The only reason Corbyn and Labour voted against the deal was because it was a TORY deal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2019)

So whats new then


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## Fade and Die (Aug 15, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So whats new then 

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An ex West Ham player won you your 1st trophy of the season. ðŸ˜


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## Fade and Die (Aug 15, 2019)

Actually the more I think about it in an odd way we might even thank Mavis one day. If she and her team of EU sycophants had not been so utterly inept and negotiated something just a smidgen better â€” the Labour MPâ€™s in strong leave constituencies and weaker/party loyalists in the ERG might have gone for it. Then we truly would be screwed permanently. Instead it was so unbelievably rancid a deal that it got defeated and has now opened up from almost out of nowhere, the possibility of a real Brexit not a con trick BRINO...Sure a realistic deal had we adopted a grown up stance from the very start would have been preferable, but at least we now have a shot at avoiding utter humiliation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 15, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			An ex West Ham player won you your 1st trophy of the season. ðŸ˜
		
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Excellent - so he has won more in 7 days at Liverpool than he did in 6 years at West Ham


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## Fade and Die (Aug 15, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Excellent - so he has won more in 7 days at Liverpool than he did in 6 years at West Ham 

Click to expand...

ðŸ˜¶â˜¹ï¸ðŸ˜­


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## spongebob59 (Aug 15, 2019)

About the only sensible tweet Ive seen all day

Boris Johnson

@BorisJohnson
Â·
2h

The referendum result must be respected.  We will leave the EU on 31st October.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 15, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			An ex West Ham player won you your 1st trophy of the season. ðŸ˜
		
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Is he a leaver or remain thatâ€™s what we want to know?


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## Pants (Aug 15, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I just hope none of those 1,000,000 people losing their jobs are not relatives or friends of yourself.
		
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I'm confused (not for the first time).

So, if 1,000,000 people are going to lose their jobs, who is going to do them instead?  Or are you saying that there are 1,000,000 jobs being done that don't need doing?  At (say) Â£30,000 per job, that could save companies about Â£30 billion a year in wages


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## Pants (Aug 15, 2019)

Yeh!  Tongue in cheek but just illustrates how dumb headlines are.


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The votes to update the leaving date in the European Withdrawal Act in the HoC's can be found on the HoC's website. The date is included in the 2018 Withdrawal act *and has been updated twice via secondary legislation* to the current date of 31st October.

https://commonsvotes.digiminster.com

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As I suspected, you've completely corrupted the purpose of those 'updates'! They are actually updates to delay leaving - in the hope of avoiding a 'no deal' situation!

The House of Commons has NOT 'voted to leave on October 31'! Though, as I stated in my earlier challengr, *the effect* of current legislation (and negotiations) is that that's what will happen!

To suggest/call SILH a liar for not making the same, erroneous, 'quantum leap' to the same conclusion as you borders on, if not plainly 'is', obscene!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The naivety, or just plain head-in-the-sand mentality of both Remoaners and â€˜No to No-Dealâ€™ exponents is truly incredible! The EU have stated time and time again that NOTHING FURTHER IS NEGOTIABLE. What does it take to get this fact Into their heads?

If there is no room for negotiation and no leeway, t*hen what other option is there except no bloody deal??*

Ironically Barnierâ€™s deal gave Labour Remoaners virtually everything they wanted:

UK trapped in the Customs Union in perpetuity at the EUâ€™s pleasure, unable to make our own trade deals and no say in its operation. A fudge on the Single Market allowing a continuation of Free Movement in all but name. Subject to the ECJ for a minimum of 8 years with extension periods that could be extended infinitely. Whatâ€™s not for Labour to like?

The only reason Corbyn and Labour voted against the deal was because it was a TORY deal.
		
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We relax some of our Red Lines.

The backstop was the OUR idea to fit in with OUR Red Lines - it was not something the EU came up with to trap us in the EU for ever and a day.  We set our Red lines in full knowledge of the EU principles around the Single Market - they did not invent them for the negotiations.  May painted the UK into a corner.  The paint is now dry. We can get out of that corner if we so choose.  Johnson is choosing not to do so.  Cleverly this morning claimed that there will be a deal - that Johnson and the government *want *a deal - but failed to explain how that can happen if we refuse to engage - and his rationale for refusing to engage was that previously engaging did not deliver the agreement that was acceptable - but at least it produced an agreement.

Leavers and some here explain endlessly how the solutions to border control between the EU and NI exist - that the issue is simply one confected by the EU - these controls just need rolling out. * If that is true* then the backstop will NEVER be required.  So the backstop should be a non-issue.

Johnson has now said that the backstop should be removed completely without coming up with any suggestion of what could replace it - especially in the event of a no deal departure.  But the backstop cannot be removed as there has to be something in place for border control if we leave without a deal - and it simply remains in place until the solutions *that already exist *are rolled out.

I am not hearing anything about what Johnson actually *wants *from the EU out of a new negotiation - even were they to drop the backstop.  What do we want - a free trade deal and full access to the Single Market? Well that would be nice  But it just isn't going to happen.

Despite the words and the lines being spouted by every minister who is put up for any interview - I fear that we are leaving on 31/10 with No Deal - a country being led into a Fields of Dreams by Boris Johnson astride his unicorn.  And what we will find there on 1st November - well nobody _really _knows.


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## USER1999 (Aug 16, 2019)

Flipping heck, not Unicorns again.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We relax some of our Red Lines.

The backstop was the OUR idea to fit in with OUR Red Lines - it was not something the EU came up with to trap us in the EU for ever and a day.  We set our Red lines in full knowledge of the EU principles around the Single Market - they did not invent them for the negotiations.  May painted the UK into a corner.  The paint is now dry. We can get out of that corner if we so choose.  Johnson is choosing not to do so.  Cleverly this morning claimed that there will be a deal - that Johnson and the government *want *a deal - but failed to explain how that can happen if we refuse to engage - and his rationale for refusing to engage was that previously engaging did not deliver the agreement that was acceptable - but at least it produced an agreement.

Leavers and some here explain endlessly how the solutions to border control between the EU and NI exist - that the issue is simply one confected by the EU - these controls just need rolling out. * If that is true* then the backstop will NEVER be required.  So the backstop should be a non-issue.

Johnson has now said that the backstop should be removed completely without coming up with any suggestion of what could replace it - especially in the event of a no deal departure.  But the backstop cannot be removed as there has to be something in place for border control if we leave without a deal - and it simply remains in place until the solutions *that already exist *are rolled out.

I am not hearing anything about what Johnson actually *wants *from the EU out of a new negotiation - even were they to drop the backstop.  What do we want - a free trade deal and full access to the Single Market? Well that would be nice  But it just isn't going to happen.

Despite the words and the lines being spouted by every minister who is put up for any interview - I fear that we are leaving on 31/10 with No Deal - a country being led into a Fields of Dreams by Boris Johnson astride his unicorn.  And what we will find there on 1st November - well nobody _really _knows.
		
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Aside from the fact that you think only the U.K. should make concessions (bet you was heartbroken when Teresa the appeaser got the bullet!) you seem to be ignoring the fact it is the E.U that has said there can be no more negotiations. it is your beloved E.U that has given us a take it or leave it deal.

So seems like we will be leaving with no deal, which is what was overwhelming voted for in parliament.


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## ger147 (Aug 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			As I suspected, you've completely corrupted the purpose of those 'updates'! They are actually updates to delay leaving - in the hope of avoiding a 'no deal' situation!

The House of Commons has NOT 'voted to leave on October 31'! Though, as I stated in my earlier challengr, *the effect* of current legislation (and negotiations) is that that's what will happen!

To suggest/call SILH a liar for not making the same, erroneous, 'quantum leap' to the same conclusion as you borders on, if not plainly 'is', obscene!
		
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Twaddle...


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## Pants (Aug 16, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Flipping heck, not Unicorns again.
		
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I think that he is one of the few on the planet who actually believes they exist.  Could explain a lot


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## SocketRocket (Aug 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			As I suspected, you've completely corrupted the purpose of those 'updates'! They are actually updates to delay leaving - in the hope of avoiding a 'no deal' situation!

The House of Commons has NOT 'voted to leave on October 31'! Though, as I stated in my earlier challengr, *the effect* of current legislation (and negotiations) is that that's what will happen!

To suggest/call SILH a liar for not making the same, erroneous, 'quantum leap' to the same conclusion as you borders on, if not plainly 'is', obscene!
		
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Parliament voted to enact Article 50 which is designed as the procedure for member states to have a mechanism to allow them to exit the EU.  It gives a two year window to negotiate a mutual deal or leave without one, the two year period can also be extended if all parties agree.  The UK government negotiated an agreement (deal)  that parliament has rejected out of hand, the EU are saying they will not open the the proposed deal for renegotiation but many of the parliamentarians who rejected it are now saying they dont want us to leave without a deal.  What option is there now but to leave without a deal just like voting for article 50 suggested could happen.


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Parliament voted to enact Article 50 which is designed as the procedure for member states to have a mechanism to allow them to exit the EU.  It gives a two year window to negotiate a mutual deal or leave without one, the two year period can also be extended if all parties agree.  The UK government negotiated an agreement (deal)  that parliament has rejected out of hand, the EU are saying they will not open the the proposed deal for renegotiation but many of the parliamentarians who rejected it are now saying they dont want us to leave without a deal.  What option is there now but to leave without a deal just like voting for article 50 suggested could happen.
		
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Oh, I don't disagree with that, or that that's where the situation is headed. It's the nature of the GER-SILH conversation - and the ridiculous accusation of SILH being a liar that wrankles!
Btw. I don't believe it was rejected 'out of hand' - at least not by all. It was simply a terrible 'deal', but was al the EU would 'concede'!


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Parliament voted to enact Article 50 which is designed as the procedure for member states to have a mechanism to allow them to exit the EU.  It gives a two year window to negotiate a mutual deal or leave without one, the two year period can also be extended if all parties agree.  The UK government negotiated an agreement (deal)  that parliament has rejected out of hand, the EU are saying they will not open the the proposed deal for renegotiation but many of the parliamentarians who rejected it are now saying they dont want us to leave without a deal.  What option is there now but to leave without a deal just like voting for article 50 suggested could happen.
		
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Is this another unintended consequence that our third rate politicians have missed.
Our negotiations were not very good and the EU have just said no to everything.
They have conceded nothing and imo are regretting it as it looks like no deal is the only option.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Is this another unintended consequence that our third rate politicians have missed.
Our negotiations were not very good and the EU have just said no to everything.
*They have conceded nothing *and imo are regretting it as it looks like no deal is the only option.
		
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Well given how opaque our government was on what was being discussed, we actually have very little idea what the EU conceded. 

What we do know is that they conceded in respect of the EU/NI border.  What has been agreed and signed off by the EU27 and the UK government in respect of the NI/EU border was not the EUs preferred solution - the EU accommodated what the UK wished.  To enable the EU to make that accommodation the UK proposed the backstop.  And on the basis of the backstop being in place the UK's preferred position was accepted by the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Aside from the fact that you think only the U.K. should make concessions (bet you was heartbroken when Teresa the appeaser got the bullet!) you seem to be ignoring the fact it is the E.U that has said there can be no more negotiations. it is your beloved E.U that has given us a take it or leave it deal.

So seems like we will be leaving with no deal, which is what was overwhelming voted for in parliament.
		
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Remind me again when that overwhelming vote for No Deal was?


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## Hobbit (Aug 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well given how opaque our government was on what was being discussed, we actually have very little idea what the EU conceded.

What we do know is that they conceded in respect of the EU/NI border.  What has been agreed and signed off by the EU27 and the UK government in respect of the NI/EU border was not the EUs preferred solution - the EU accommodated what the UK wished.  To enable the EU to make that accommodation the UK proposed the backstop.  And on the basis of the backstop being in place the UK's preferred position was accepted by the EU.
		
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Just a thought... if the EU's preferred option wasn't the backstop why won't they drop it?


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			...

So seems like we will be leaving with no deal, which is what was overwhelming voted for in parliament.
		
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Er...Yvette Cooper's Private Member's amendment, that was passed (with a majority of 1), in spite of/against Labour Whip, was purely and simply a device to avoid a 'No Deal'

That suggests that any 'overwhelming majority' would actually be AGAINST No Deal!


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## Hobbit (Aug 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Yvette Cooper's Private Member's amendment, that was passed (with a majority of 1), in spite of/against Labour Whip, was purely and simply a device to avoid a 'No Deal'

That suggests that any 'overwhelming majority' would actually be AGAINST No Deal!
		
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Its a tough one. The MP's and the govt don't want No Deal but have also consigned May's deal to the bin, and the EU have said there's only one deal on the table, which they don't want to renegotiate.

A bit of brinksmanship? Who blinks first?


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well given how opaque our government was on what was being discussed, we actually have very little idea what the EU conceded.

What we do know is that they conceded in respect of the EU/NI border.  What has been agreed and signed off by the EU27 and the UK government in respect of the NI/EU border was not the EUs preferred solution - the EU accommodated what the UK wished.  To enable the EU to make that accommodation the UK proposed the backstop.  And on the basis of the backstop being in place the UK's preferred position was accepted by the EU.
		
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Yes I see your point .
But we spent the first two years with a remainer in charge who never really wanted to leave and had no intention of no deal.
If a leaver was in charge for that time an extension would not have been nessesary, as the terms being negotiated would have looked different.
We are where we are now ,but if that wasnâ€™t the preffered outcome for the EU why wonâ€™t they renegotiate anything?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well given how opaque our government was on what was being discussed, we actually have very little idea what the EU conceded.

What we do know is that they conceded in respect of the EU/NI border.  What has been agreed and signed off by the EU27 and the UK government in respect of the NI/EU border was not the EUs preferred solution - the EU accommodated what the UK wished.  To enable the EU to make that accommodation the UK proposed the backstop.  And on the basis of the backstop being in place the UK's preferred position was accepted by the EU.
		
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Thats not what happened.
The EU proposed the backstop but it was only to keep Northern Ireland in the Customs Union etc, producing a border down the Irish Sea.  May said this was unacceptable and in its place suggested  the backstop included all of the UK.
This is not the same as the UK initiating the concept of a backstop.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Yvette Cooper's Private Member's amendment, that was passed (with a majority of 1), in spite of/against Labour Whip, was purely and simply a device to avoid a 'No Deal'

That suggests that any 'overwhelming majority' would actually be AGAINST No Deal!
		
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Er...The Commons voted overwhelmingly for No Deal when they triggered Article 50 seventeen months ago....Article 50 states that we leave in 2 years with or WITHOUT an agreement.

Now pay attention it is not rocket science...

 Mrs May came back with a â€œdealâ€ which Parliament rightfully rejected on no less than THREE occasions, leaving *No Deal* as the default option BY LAW.

Poor old Big Brain Remain MPs... Seems they didnâ€™t know what they were voting for when they voted to trigger Article 50. Thatâ€™s irony for you.ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Er...The Commons voted overwhelmingly for No Deal when they triggered Article 50 seventeen months ago...
...
		
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Twaddle!

Voting to invoke A50 did/does not mean voting for No Deal...simply accepting that that could result!


Fade and Die said:



			Article 50 states that we leave in 2 years with or WITHOUT an agreement.
		
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And you've even got that wrong too!


Btw. There's no need to convince me about No Deal! I believe that's going to be the result - and is likely, given all that's happened since the referendum, that it's the best/only way to proceed - though almost certainly not the best result for UK!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just a thought... if the EU's preferred option wasn't the backstop why won't they drop it?
		
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As I understand it the EU's preferred solution was trade control down the Irish Sea - not on the EU/NI border.  The backstop only came along as the UK did not want trade control done that way - UK wanted it on the EU/NI border and came up with the backstop to enable the EU to accept the UK preference.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I see your point .
But we spent the first two years with a remainer in charge who never really wanted to leave and had no intention of no deal.
If a leaver was in charge for that time an extension would not have been nessesary, as the terms being negotiated would have looked different.
We are where we are now ,but if that wasnâ€™t the preffered outcome for the EU why wonâ€™t they renegotiate anything?
		
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That 'remainer' somehow got a leave deal agreed - one that that Remainer probably realised was the only deal possible given the red lines she had laid down and felt she had to stick to given internal UK political pressure on her and er party.  I cannot see a Leaver NOT setting down the same red Lines so cannot see why things would have been much, if any,  different.  The EU will negotiate around the framework agreement,  The withdrawal agreement only covers EU/NI border control; citizens rights; and the payment.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That 'remainer' somehow got a leave deal agreed - one that that Remainer probably realised was the only deal possible given the red lines she had laid down and felt she had to stick to given internal UK political pressure on her and er party.  I cannot see a Leaver NOT setting down the same red Lines so cannot see why things would have been much, if any,  different.  The EU will negotiate around the framework agreement,  The withdrawal agreement only covers EU/NI border control; citizens rights; and the payment.
		
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Really ?
We have had a leaver as PM for a couple of weeks and things seem very different to me.


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## User62651 (Aug 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Er...The Commons voted overwhelmingly for No Deal when they triggered Article 50 seventeen months ago....Article 50 states that we leave in 2 years with or WITHOUT an agreement.

Now pay attention it is not rocket science...

Mrs May came back with a â€œdealâ€ which Parliament rightfully rejected on no less than THREE occasions, leaving *No Deal* as the default option BY LAW.

Poor old Big Brain Remain MPs... Seems they didnâ€™t know what they were voting for when they voted to trigger Article 50. Thatâ€™s irony for you.ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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So The Commons voted for No Deal? Course they did. That's why there's been 2 extensions to Art 50 and endless debate and multiple votes on solutions to get away from No Deal over the past year. Only MPs looking for No Deal are some of the ERG nutbars like dim fatty Francois, they are not numerous fortunately.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!

Voting to invoke A50 did/does not mean voting for No Deal...simply accepting that that could result!

And you've even got that wrong too!


Btw. There's no need to convince me about No Deal! I believe that's going to be the result - and is likely, given all that's happened since the referendum, that it's the best/only way to proceed - though almost certainly not the best result for UK!
		
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Is the default position of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 been changed then?


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Is the default position of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 been changed then?
		
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Please explain what you mean by 'default position'. I think I know what you mean but I don't believe there's any reference to 'default position' in that Act!
I don't want misinterpret your statement though.


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## IanM (Aug 16, 2019)

Quick note to Sky News:  If you have an impartial focus group on a programme, best check that the "randoms" are not "known activists!"


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## Hobbit (Aug 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I understand it the EU's preferred solution was trade control down the Irish Sea - not on the EU/NI border.  The backstop only came along as the UK did not want trade control done that way - UK wanted it on the EU/NI border and came up with the backstop to enable the EU to accept the UK preference.
		
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Ah, so you started mid point by NOT mentioning what the EU originally wanted, i.e. a border down the Irish Sea. Isn't that gilding the Lilly or being a little circumspect? Does that not mean that May's team came up with a better option for the UK, even though it is still obviously unpalatable to the HoC? Good on the HoC for saying no to that.

To be honest, I totally support the dropping of the backstop for two reasons. 1) it does surrender sovereignty of NI to Brussels, and 2) I do not trust Brussels one bit in agreeing a solution to the NI border post-Leave with a backstop in place. I feel that the EU have been disingenuous in the negotiations. It was only a gut feel until I saw the Beeb documentary team behind the scenes with Guy Verhofstadt's team over a lengthy period of time.

I'm disappointed you, once again, are so obviously taking the EU side in this. If we are to leave I'd expect you'd want the best deal possible for the UK, and that includes being fair and equitable. I'd suggest that in your wording of who wanted the backstop and why colours the argument a little in favour of the EU.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 16, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So The Commons voted for No Deal? Course they did. That's why there's been 2 extensions to Art 50 and endless debate and multiple votes on solutions to get away from No Deal over the past year. Only MPs looking for No Deal are some of the ERG nutbars like dim fatty Francois, they are not numerous fortunately.
		
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But the only deal on offer was rejected by parliament 3 times. What do you think we should do then? 

Letâ€™s be honest...a â€œdealâ€ was a manufactured construct to obfuscate and procrastinate the whole process of actually leaving.

In fact the only deal mentioned during the Referendum campaign was a Trade Deal. And weâ€™re more likely to get that sooner if we leave without Barnierâ€™s â€˜Agreementâ€™.


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## Hobbit (Aug 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That 'remainer' somehow got a leave deal agreed - one that that Remainer probably realised was the only deal possible given the red lines she had laid down and felt she had to stick to given internal UK political pressure on her and er party.  I cannot see a Leaver NOT setting down the same red Lines so cannot see why things would have been much, if any,  different.  The EU will negotiate around the framework agreement,  The withdrawal agreement only covers EU/NI border control; citizens rights; and the payment.
		
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*"The Withdrawal Agreement only covers EU/NI border control, citizen's rights and the Payment."*

*You need to read the Withdrawal Agreement. It covers everything including the UK's ability to set competitive pricing...*

*I genuinely find it very difficult to believe you do not know what the WA covers. You quoted GATT24 Art. 10 chapter and verse yet you are either clueless on the WA or are being deliberately obtuse.*


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## drdel (Aug 16, 2019)

It seems to me the 'Leave' advocates have: IMO, a simplistic understanding of the EU process and its long standing track record and tactics of negotiating with member states. Article 50 specifically states that 'mutual' agreement is the overall aim. The EU has always stonewalled any members' request for change for the obvious fear that contagion would spread among members for any apparent concession (Greece, Italy, Poland) internationally Canada, Switzerland etc. 

The resulting WDA so-called was only ever a proposition. Although the word 'agreement' was i the title it was only ever an offer to be presented to the UK Parliament by the 'team' for ratification. The UK Parliament rejected it as unacceptable but the EU failed to respond to the need for change so as a result the 'mutuality' of A50 went by the board. 

The endless stream of 'talking heads' in the media coined the term 'no deal'; it was a media invention. Obviously, there was always a possibility that the 2 year period would end before the parties had tied things down. as there is with *any* negotiation. This is especially true with a management by proxi which is the Brussels structure.  No deal is a simple notional construct that has to exist because it is a negotiation.  Now 'no deal' has acquired an artificial persona yet it is a intrinsic component  in the concept and process of leaving the EU. It is consequence that could not have been included in any  referendum because the EU rules were clear in A50 on how the process would be followed, once a member has decided to leave. 

IMO MP's (including the publicity seeking Bercow) are simply playing lawyer style games to the detriment of proper debate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Ah, so you started mid point by NOT mentioning what the EU originally wanted, i.e. a border down the Irish Sea. Isn't that gilding the Lilly or being a little circumspect? Does that not mean that May's team came up with a better option for the UK, even though it is still obviously unpalatable to the HoC? Good on the HoC for saying no to that.

To be honest, I totally support the dropping of the backstop for two reasons. 1) it does surrender sovereignty of NI to Brussels, and 2) I do not trust Brussels one bit in agreeing a solution to the NI border post-Leave with a backstop in place. I feel that the EU have been disingenuous in the negotiations. It was only a gut feel until I saw the Beeb documentary team behind the scenes with Guy Verhofstadt's team over a lengthy period of time.

I'm disappointed you, once again, are so obviously taking the EU side in this. If we are to leave I'd expect you'd want the best deal possible for the UK, and that includes being fair and equitable. I'd suggest that in your wording of who wanted the backstop and why colours the argument a little in favour of the EU.
		
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I want the best for the UK - I think leaving the EU will be bad - and without a deal it will be awful, and will store up all sorts of issues for our children and the country.  The best deal for the UK is the one that we currently have. 

But I am not fooled by the disingenuous spin and deceptions Johnson is plying us with - he actually can't be bothered negotiating a deal - he just wants out with No Deal.  And that is where we are heading - even although in a most recent Survation poll only 19% chose that option as their most favoured outcome.  But - we are told - that is the will of the people.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*"The Withdrawal Agreement only covers EU/NI border control, citizen's rights and the Payment."*

*You need to read the Withdrawal Agreement. It covers everything including the UK's ability to set competitive pricing...*

*I genuinely find it very difficult to believe you do not know what the WA covers. You quoted GATT24 Art. 10 chapter and verse yet you are either clueless on the WA or are being deliberately obtuse.*

Click to expand...

Sorry - you are right - I meant the 3 priorities for the EU

A_re there any priorities? Priorities for Commission are safeguarding citizensâ€™ rights, reaching a financial settlement, and resolving border issues. The EU has stipulated that sufficient progress must be made on these matters before there can be any discussion of the UKâ€™s future trading relationship with the EU._

from Section 4.3 of *HoC Briefing Paper Brexit: How does the Article 50 process work? *

file:///C:/Users/A150759/Downloads/CBP-7551.pdf


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## SocketRocket (Aug 16, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So The Commons voted for No Deal? Course they did. That's why there's been 2 extensions to Art 50 and endless debate and multiple votes on solutions to get away from No Deal over the past year. Only MPs looking for No Deal are some of the ERG nutbars like *dim fatty Francois*, they are not numerous fortunately.
		
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A tag that could be leveled at Blackford but I guess that would be crass due to him not being a Tory.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			It seems to me the 'Leave' advocates have: IMO, a simplistic understanding of the EU process and its long standing track record and tactics of negotiating with member states. Article 50 specifically states that 'mutual' agreement is the overall aim. The EU has always stonewalled any members' request for change for the obvious fear that contagion would spread among members for any apparent concession (Greece, Italy, Poland) internationally Canada, Switzerland etc.

The resulting WDA so-called was only ever a proposition. Although the word 'agreement' was i the title it was only ever an offer to be presented to the UK Parliament by the 'team' for ratification. The UK Parliament rejected it as unacceptable but the EU failed to respond to the need for change so as a result the 'mutuality' of A50 went by the board.

The endless stream of 'talking heads' in *the media coined the term 'no deal'; it was a media invention.* Obviously, there was always a possibility that the 2 year period would end before the parties had tied things down. as there is with *any* negotiation. This is especially true with a management by proxi which is the Brussels structure.  No deal is a simple notional construct that has to exist because it is a negotiation.  Now 'no deal' has acquired an artificial persona yet it is a intrinsic component  in the concept and process of leaving the EU. It is consequence that could not have been included in any  referendum because the EU rules were clear in A50 on how the process would be followed, once a member has decided to leave.

IMO MP's (including the publicity seeking Bercow) are simply playing lawyer style games to the detriment of proper debate.
		
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maybe so - but I believe that using it as an outcome may have been invented by Nigel Farage *after *the referendum - though of course he denies that.

 â€œNorway chooses its own deal. We will choose our own deal.â€


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1127522686509301760
https://www.thejournal.ie/nigel-farage-no-deal-bbc-fact-check-4632847-May2019/


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## SocketRocket (Aug 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - you are right - I meant the 3 priorities for the EU

A_re there any priorities? Priorities for Commission are safeguarding citizensâ€™ rights, reaching a financial settlement, and resolving border issues. The EU has stipulated that sufficient progress must be made on these matters before there can be any discussion of the UKâ€™s future trading relationship with the EU._

from Section 4.3 of *HoC Briefing Paper Brexit: How does the Article 50 process work? *

file:///C:/Users/A150759/Downloads/CBP-7551.pdf

Click to expand...

Their intrangency on those three priorities were a deliberate ploy to hold up trade talks and stiffle a chance of reaching a suitable agreement for the UK. This was done to push a stinker of a WA along with their main objective of keeping the UK in the EU.


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## Hobbit (Aug 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I want the best for the UK - I think leaving the EU will be bad - and without a deal it will be awful, and will store up all sorts of issues for our children and the country.  The best deal for the UK is the one that we currently have.

But I am not fooled by the disingenuous spin and deceptions Johnson is plying us with - he actually can't be bothered negotiating a deal - he just wants out with No Deal.  And that is where we are heading - even although in a most recent Survation poll only 19% chose that option as their most favoured outcome.  But - we are told - that is the will of the people.
		
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I nearly hit "like" but feel your second para is too full of assumptions. Do I trust Boris? No but I don't know if he's being deceptive. Do I think he wants No Deal? Is he really that daft that he'd throw away a potential deal for No Deal? Not even he is that stupid. As for your "will of the people" bit, you're taking that phrase out of context. The "will of the people" was Leave, not No Deal. 

Is it spin or deceptions from you or are you just a little paranoid in seeing monsters under the bed?


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## spongebob59 (Aug 16, 2019)

Love this quote  re Clarke and Harmon

'That's odd. We've had Remoaners spending the last 3 years telling us that old people have stolen their future. Oh I geddit now, they only like old people that agree with them'


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## SocketRocket (Aug 16, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Love this quote  re Clarke and Harmon

'That's odd. We've had Remoaners spending the last 3 years telling us that old people have stolen their future. Oh I geddit now, they only like old people that agree with them'
		
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Ken Clarke needs removing from the Tory Whip along with any others who would vote to bring down their own government.  It's their choice.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ken Clarke needs removing from the Tory Whip along with any others who would vote to bring down their own government.  It's their choice.
		
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What amuses me is.
The Labour Party expelled Alister Campbell recently for voting Lib Dem.
But could be asking all its MPs to vote for Ken Clarke?????really.
Canâ€™t see Corbyn letting that go.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 17, 2019)

I wonder if the old Corbyn - a proud socialist,democrat & Brexiteer - would ever have imagined that he would one day collaborate with political enemies in an effort to be installed as head of an unelected gov't whose purpose was to block a democratic vote taking us out of the EU.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 17, 2019)

Quote 

I used to respect Ken Clarke. But his statement that, â€œThe present crisis is as bad as it was in 1931 or even 1940â€ is deranged nonsense.
In 1940 we faced the most ruthless fascist army and murder machine in history.  Today, we are unsettled over how to leave a trading bloc


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## spongebob59 (Aug 17, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1162500721360678912


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## Foxholer (Aug 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Their intrangency on those three priorities were a deliberate ploy to hold up trade talks and stiffle a chance of reaching a suitable agreement for the UK. This was done to push a stinker of a WA along with their main objective of keeping the UK in the EU.
		
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I'd disagree about 'their main objective', though it would certainly have been high on any list of goals!

I'm pretty certain that their Main Priority was/is to create significant 'disincentive' for other members who might consider leaving. And for this reason, I expect the EU to take a very hard line in any future negotiations - even though such an attitude might be to the detriment of member states!


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## Foxholer (Aug 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ken Clarke needs removing from the Tory Whip along with any others who would vote to bring down their own government.  It's their choice.
		
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Er...I think you should probably temper your (Friday evening) alcohol intake! 

Exactly what would that achieve? Even if that had any effect on the 'wonderfully independent Tory' Clarke - I'm pretty certain it would more likely have the opposite effect - the main effect would be to go from a Commons majority of 1 to not having a majority at all - technically being in a majority and maybe even being DEPENDENT ON CLARKE to support a majority!! So removing the whip from Clarke woul be more likely to 'bring down their government' than simply tolerating him!

FWIW, I don't believe Clarke actually spoke anything that can really construed as 'rebellious' - though I'm open to persuasion! As far as I've observed, he was simply replying to questions about a hypothetical situation. In fact, by confirming that he would be available, I believe he has probably cooled the media's attention around the matter!

Storm in a teacup/beer glass!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 17, 2019)

Thats a poor way of debating a subject, you can do much better. Due to medication I take I dont drink these days so pull your neck in.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er...I think you should probably temper your (Friday evening) alcohol intake! 

Exactly what would that achieve? Even if that had any effect on the 'wonderfully independent Tory' Clarke - I'm pretty certain it would more likely have the opposite effect - the main effect would be to go from a Commons majority of 1 to not having a majority at all - technically being in a majority and maybe even being DEPENDENT ON CLARKE to support a majority!! So removing the whip from Clarke woul be more likely to 'bring down their government' than simply tolerating him!

FWIW, I don't believe Clarke actually spoke anything that can really construed as 'rebellious' - though I'm open to persuasion! As far as I've observed, he was simply replying to questions about a hypothetical situation. In fact, by confirming that he would be available, I believe he has probably cooled the media's attention around the matter!

Storm in a teacup/beer glass!
		
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My point was that if they are going to vote down their own government they are dead parrots in the party anyway so best turf them out and work and getting them deselected from their onstituency parties.


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## pendodave (Aug 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			My point was that if they are going to vote down their own government they are dead parrots in the party anyway so best turf them out and work and getting them deselected from their onstituency parties.
		
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Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure that the odd independent thinker on the backbenches is the worst thing that can happen to either of the main parties.  Groupthink tends to end very badly in almost every situation. I admire your intolerance though, most impressive.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 17, 2019)

Pinched from Fosh

Scotland.â€¦. 6 weeks ago...â€¦â€¦.Jo Swinson is dreadful.
England....she seems quite nice.

Scotland ...3 weeks ago..... Jo Swinson is dreadful.
England....she's not that bad.

Scotland now â€¦â€¦..Jo Swinson is dreadful.
England now...... isn't  Jo Swinson dreadful.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 17, 2019)

pendodave said:



			Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure that the odd independent thinker on the backbenches is the worst thing that can happen to either of the main parties.  Groupthink tends to end very badly in almost every situation. I admire your intolerance though, most impressive.
		
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I just dont see how someone can have alegance to a political party in parliament and be prepared to vote 'no confidence' in that party.  If this is there stance then the honorable thing to do is leave the government benches first.  If that view is intolerant then I accept your accolade.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 17, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I wonder if the old Corbyn - a proud socialist,democrat & Brexiteer - would ever have imagined that he would one day collaborate with political enemies in an effort to be installed as head of an unelected gov't whose purpose was to block a democratic vote taking us out of the EU.
		
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I thought it was only to stop a no deal exit not stop Brexit altogether.?


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## MegaSteve (Aug 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I just dont see how someone can have alegance to a political party in parliament and be prepared to vote 'no confidence' in that party.  If this is there stance then the honorable thing to do is leave the government benches first.  If that view is intolerant then I accept your accolade.
		
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Because politicians quite like it being one rule for themselves with one rule for the others...

A bit like Boris getting to be PM without a GE having previously kicked off when same happened with Brown...


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## Parsaregood (Aug 17, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So The Commons voted for No Deal? Course they did. That's why there's been 2 extensions to Art 50 and endless debate and multiple votes on solutions to get away from No Deal over the past year. Only MPs looking for No Deal are some of the ERG nutbars like dim fatty Francois, they are not numerous fortunately.
		
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If No Deal is a very realistic probability from triggering article 50, why on earth did MP's who are so against it vote for it ? It seems a ridiculous  thing to do, you cannot extend article 50 indefinitely.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 17, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			you cannot extend article 50 indefinitely.
		
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You can certainly try. Especially if you are an MP who rather than trying to prevent a No Deal Brexi, as many claim, is actually trying to prevent Brexit. Keep delaying in the hope that there will be a 2nd referendum and the public will be so cheesed off with the whole thing they'll vote to remain or that Parliament decides to revoke Article 50.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 17, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			If No Deal is a very realistic probability from triggering article 50, why on earth did MP's who are so against it vote for it ? It seems a ridiculous  thing to do, you cannot extend article 50 indefinitely.
		
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That's correct but I think many are more interested in us remaining and ignoring the referendum and they have invented a plethora of reasons to support their view


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## Parsaregood (Aug 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's correct but I think many are more interested in us remaining and ignoring the referendum and they have invented a plethora of reasons to support their view
		
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Of course they have but the reasons and arguments they provide become more ridiculous by the week. The vote was to leave the EU, in a democracy you respect the vote. If a deal cant be realistically worked out in the timeframe allowed you leave, if you cant work out a deal in 2 years the likelihood is a deal wont be worked out. The whole deal from May and co was a subliminal attempt at remaining with some wallpaper over it. Absolute joke, its actually Theresa May who has almost forced no Deal upon us with her terrible negotiations and foolish attempts to get this deal through parliament.  Boris is alot more genuine the May ever was, she never intended to even try to do what she said she would do.


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## Hobbit (Aug 17, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Of course they have but the reasons and arguments they provide become more ridiculous by the week. The vote was to leave the EU, in a democracy you respect the vote. If a deal cant be realistically worked out in the timeframe allowed you leave, if you cant work out a deal in 2 years the likelihood is a deal wont be worked out. The whole deal from May and co was a subliminal attempt at remaining with some wallpaper over it. Absolute joke, its actually Theresa May who has almost forced no Deal upon us with her terrible negotiations and foolish attempts to get this deal through parliament.  Boris is alot more genuine the May ever was, she never intended to even try to do what she said she would do.
		
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With a couple of hours to spare yesterday I had a good look at the Canada free trade deal(CETA), which includes services as well as goods. Its a very good deal, AND it is the deal that Tusk and Barnier also offered to the UK in the early days. 

When you compare May's deal with the Canada deal, what on earth was she and Ollie Robbins doing in creating/promoting the abortion that is May's deal? I just can't believe the offer of a Canada version wasn't taken up. And if you have a read of David Davies' comments since resigning from the position of Brexit Secretary in which he also wanted a version of the Canada deal, tailored to the UK... I guess that's what you get when you get a Remainer PM who wanted a Brino.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			You can certainly try. Especially if you are an MP who rather than trying to prevent a No Deal Brexi, as many claim, is actually trying to prevent Brexit. Keep delaying in the hope that there will be a 2nd referendum and the public will be so cheesed off with the whole thing they'll vote to remain or that Parliament decides to revoke Article 50.
		
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That could well be the case for some, while others realise the potential disaster that No Deal *could* be.

Here's a recent article that points out some 'worst case' possibilities https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49385263


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## robinthehood (Aug 18, 2019)

I



Foxholer said:



			That could well be the case for some, while others realise the potential disaster that No Deal *could* be.

Here's a recent article that points out some 'worst case' possibilities https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49385263

Click to expand...

I read the times article this morning and it makes for quite bleak reading.  

A senior Whitehall source said: â€œThis is not Project Fear â€” this is the most realistic assessment of what the public face with no deal. These are likely, basic, reasonable scenarios â€” not the worst case.â€


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That could well be the case for some, while others realise the potential disaster that No Deal *could* be.

Here's a recent article that points out some 'worst case' possibilities https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49385263

Click to expand...

I do find these predictions confusing at times. Shortage of drinking water, really!

Why would the UK create problems with goods being IMPORTED through UK ports, surely the problems if any would be in the EU if freight gets held up in France, Calais authorities state they will not have hold ups their side though.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 18, 2019)

Yellowhammer docs 'leaked'.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...of-border-chaos-and-food-shortages/ar-AAFYeSV

Start buying now, especially toilet rolls and tinned /dry goods.
Avoid travel on those days.
Prepare for long electricity shut offs [how is that going to pan out with freezer stocking ] plus petrol and other fuel shortages.
Fill your heating oil tank, scavenge wood for use with your patio fire to keep warm.

Your Brexit street warden will be appointed shortly to keep you all informed during this worrying time.


I might be lying about the last line. [well our Prime Ministers can get away with it without half the country realising so I'm just following his lead]


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## robinthehood (Aug 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I do find these predictions confusing at times. Shortage of drinking water, really!

Why would the UK create problems with goods being IMPORTED through UK ports, surely the problems if any would be in the EU if freight gets held up in France, Calais authorities state they will not have hold ups their side though.
		
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You really havnt thought this whole no deal thing through have you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You really havnt thought this whole no deal thing through have you.
		
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Hang on, don't blame me, blame the Tory Unionist supporting Sunday Times and the UK Government.
Have they got the leaked government paper wrong ?


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## drdel (Aug 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			With a couple of hours to spare yesterday I had a good look at the Canada free trade deal(CETA), which includes services as well as goods. Its a very good deal, AND it is the deal that Tusk and Barnier also offered to the UK in the early days.

When you compare May's deal with the Canada deal, what on earth was she and Ollie Robbins doing in creating/promoting the abortion that is May's deal? I just can't believe the offer of a Canada version wasn't taken up. And if you have a read of David Davies' comments since resigning from the position of Brexit Secretary in which he also wanted a version of the Canada deal, tailored to the UK... I guess that's what you get when you get a Remainer PM who wanted a Brino.
		
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,
Yup, which is why a the 'No Deal ' phrase is such a red  herring. There are numerous organisations like the CAA, UN,  IMO and WTO which declare processes  across the globe on how countries should interact. They are the  default position. The UK will have a default agreement: any deal will simply revise these international agreements in a bilateral manner. 

This is why when the EU asks the UK to specify what it wants its is  impossible, as it was in the referendum,  because these issues are not just a trade but must reflect the worldwide regs and agreements of finance, aviation, maritime, security etc, etc.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I do find these predictions confusing at times. Shortage of drinking water, really!

Why would the UK create problems with goods being IMPORTED through UK ports, surely the problems if any would be in the EU if freight gets held up in France, Calais authorities state they will not have hold ups their side though.
		
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I'm not absolutely certain, but it could well be because the current free trade environment would likely become 'stuck trade'. Both directions could, in all likelihood, have holdups to process the 'no longer free' trade. After all, the change from EU Customs Union zero rates to WTO non-zero rates would require checking of documentation for compliance - a task not reqd currently. That is not a process 'Calais authorities' would be involved in.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not absolutely certain, but it could well be because the current free trade environment would likely become 'stuck trade'. Both directions could, in all likelihood, have holdups to process the 'no longer free' trade. After all, the change from EU Customs Union zero rates to WTO non-zero rates would require checking of documentation for compliance - a task not reqd currently. That is not a process 'Calais authorities' would be involved in.
		
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I believe Calais have been introducing systems part funded by the UK for some time.   I still find these shortages we could expect difficult to follow.  Toilet rolls, there are a number of manufacturers in the UK, I think we export a lot ourselves.  Petrol, do we bring petrol across on channel ferries, I thought the crude oil was brought by ship to the refineries and processed in the UK.  No ones going to die of lettuce shortages. All the products imported/exported by ships are very well controlled for the rest of the world, why should there be a problem with EU trade.   If you have a real problem with some medical items then i'm sure they could be fast tacked by container or air supply (not convinced there would be a problem though)


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You really havnt thought this whole no deal thing through have you.
		
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Is that code for "I don't have an intelligent answer so I will post my normal ignorant type reply"


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## robinthehood (Aug 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Is that code for "I don't have an intelligent answer so I will post my normal ignorant type reply"
		
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Is that code for "I don't have an intelligent answer so I will post my normal ignorant type reply"


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Is that code for "I don't have an intelligent answer so I will post my normal ignorant type reply"
		
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OOF!!   Looks like it was then. 
You really are a twazzer of the first order, you pipe up with schoolboy comments but never add anything of substance to the debate.


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## Hobbit (Aug 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not absolutely certain, but it could well be because the current free trade environment would likely become 'stuck trade'. Both directions could, in all likelihood, have holdups to process the 'no longer free' trade. After all, the change from EU Customs Union zero rates to WTO non-zero rates would require checking of documentation for compliance - a task not reqd currently. That is not a process 'Calais authorities' would be involved in.
		
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I'm fairly certain the French ports chief said (October-ish last year) that there will be no delays at the ports in a No Deal scenario. The paper side will need sorting out, but that will be an economies of scale issue, as the French, just like the UK, trades across the world.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm fairly certain the French ports chief said (October-ish last year) that there will be no delays at the ports in a No Deal scenario. The paper side will need sorting out, but that will be an economies of scale issue, as the French, just like the UK, trades across the world.
		
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Heres a recent article.
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-dover-calais-ports-consequences-queues-france/


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## robinthehood (Aug 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OOF!!   Looks like it was then. 
You really are a twazzer of the first order, you pipe up with schoolboy comments but never add anything of substance to the debate.
		
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ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£

You really are a twazzer of the first order, you pipe up with schoolboy comments but never add anything of substance to the debate.


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## Foxholer (Aug 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Heres a recent article.
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-dover-calais-ports-consequences-queues-france/

Click to expand...

My big fear is that part of the headline of that article - 'Nothing is going to happen' - will indeed be the case, thus causing chaos on both sides of the channel! 
My hope is that the later comment 'traffic will be completely fluid' is what will actually happen.
We will, however, be subject to the whims of the Calais workers (as we are now), but any effect would, I believe, be far greater.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£

You really are a twazzer of the first order, you pipe up with schoolboy comments but never add anything of substance to the debate.
		
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Come on then, let's hear some words of wisdom from you.  Maybe you could explain whether a pragmatic policy with Brexit would be better placed than a purely heuristic  one.  Come on get those knuckles off the ground and entertain us with your hidden wisdom


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			My big fear is that part of the headline of that article - 'Nothing is going to happen' - will indeed be the case, thus causing chaos on both sides of the channel!
My hope is that the later comment 'traffic will be completely fluid' is what will actually happen.
We will, however, be subject to the whims of the Calais workers (as we are now), but any effect would, I believe, be far greater.
		
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When he says 'Nothing is going to happen' surely he means things will continue as present.


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## robinthehood (Aug 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Come on then, let's hear some words of wisdom from you.  Maybe you could explain whether a pragmatic policy with Brexit would be better placed than a purely heuristic  one.  Come on get those knuckles off the ground and entertain us with your hidden wisdom 

Click to expand...

I preferred the dead parrot ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I preferred the dead parrot ðŸ˜‰
		
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Yes, I can see that.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 19, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1163394371569557504


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm fairly certain the French ports chief said (October-ish last year) that there will be no delays at the ports in a No Deal scenario. The paper side will need sorting out, but that will be an economies of scale issue, as the French, just like the UK, trades across the world.
		
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He did - and there are arrangements in place at French (and German) ports to ease flow of traffic - arrangements they have put in place to protect the interests of the EU27 and EU27 business.  Unilateral arrangements that could be cancelled at any point but that will possibly make flow seem OK on 1st Nov if we leave with No Deal.  One of many unilateral arrangements the EU has put in place and will continue to put in place to minimise the impact on the EU27 - and that will have the positive side effect of benefiting UK business and transport - at least in the short term.


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He did - and there are arrangements in place at French (and German) ports to ease flow of traffic - arrangements they have put in place to protect the interests of the EU27 and EU27 business.  Unilateral arrangements that could be cancelled at any point but that will possibly make flow seem OK on 1st Nov if we leave with No Deal.  One of many unilateral arrangements the EU has put in place and will continue to put in place to minimise the impact on the EU27 - and that will have the positive side effect of benefiting UK business and transport - at least in the short term.
		
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Unfortunately, that has the opposite effect to the 'Let's take back control' Leave slogan. It gives 'control' away!

Still, it gives the government a handy non-UK 'culprit' when/if things go awry!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Unfortunately, that has the opposite effect to the 'Let's take back control' Leave slogan. It gives 'control' away!

Still, it gives the government a handy non-UK 'culprit' when/if things go awry!
		
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Indeed it is and indeed it does.

I see BeeJay has gone to have chats with Merkel and Macron.  Thought he wasn't going to do any of that stuff for as long as the EU refused to remove the backstop. Ah - but he is not going to negotiate he is just going to give them the UK No Deal facts of life face-to-face if they don't agree to negotiate with the UK - nothing to do with actually negotiating.  I have few doubts that Merkel and Macron are full of apprehension looking ahead to the straight talking from our PM.

I look forward subsequent announcements from #10 on how Merkel and Macron were unreasonably unmoving in respect of the backstop agreement, and how they were insultingly dismissive of the views of the UK's PM.  All part of the DC plan for the coming GE - wouldn't be surprised.  Sad where we are today.


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## Hobbit (Aug 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He did - and there are arrangements in place at French (and German) ports to ease flow of traffic - arrangements they have put in place to protect the interests of the EU27 and EU27 business.  Unilateral arrangements that could be cancelled at any point but that will possibly make flow seem OK on 1st Nov if we leave with No Deal.  One of many unilateral arrangements the EU has put in place and will continue to put in place to minimise the impact on the EU27 - and that will have the positive side effect of benefiting UK business and transport - at least in the short term.
		
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There's a shock... you saying how wonderful the EU is without mentioning the FACT that the UK is ahead of the EU in technical notices issued. Have yourself a Google search on the complaints coming from the EU 27 about the lack of support coming out of Brussels. You need to read EU media as well has UK Remain, and get some balance to what you say.

You really are completely and utterly blinkered.


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## Hobbit (Aug 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed it does.
		
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That applies both ways... do you honestly believe that the EU will block medicines coming from the UK? Have a look at the proportion of medicines exported by the UK into the EU - its a massive % of the EU's needs.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed it is and indeed it does.

I see BeeJay has gone to have chats with Merkel and Macron.  Thought he wasn't going to do any of that stuff for as long as the EU refused to remove the backstop. Ah - but he is not going to negotiate he is just going to give them the UK No Deal facts of life face-to-face if they don't agree to negotiate with the UK - nothing to do with actually negotiating.  I have few doubts that Merkel and Macron are full of apprehension looking ahead to the straight talking from our PM.

I look forward subsequent announcements from #10 on how Merkel and Macron were unreasonably unmoving in respect of the backstop agreement, and how they were insultingly dismissive of the views of the UK's PM.  All part of the DC plan for the coming GE - wouldn't be surprised.  Sad where we are today.
		
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Shock and horror! UK Prime minister visits French and German heads of state for talks.  What next eh!

See you've reverted back to your silly BeeJay name calling.  Thought you had got over that silly little episode.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 19, 2019)

I'm not quite sure what the EU expect at this point. The deal they wont budge on can not get through parliament. It has had 3 goes and failed miserably eachtime. We are in dead parrot territory and they need to see that. It is dead, it has ceased to be. There has to be movement or there is no deal. They don't even have to move that much I suspect but they will have to give something if they want any form of smooth transition.


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## Hobbit (Aug 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He did - and there are arrangements in place at French (and German) ports to ease flow of traffic - arrangements they have put in place to protect the interests of the EU27 and EU27 business.  Unilateral arrangements that could be cancelled at any point but that will possibly make flow seem OK on 1st Nov if we leave with No Deal.  One of many unilateral arrangements the EU has put in place and will continue to put in place to minimise the impact on the EU27 - and that will have the positive side effect of benefiting UK business and transport - at least in the short term.
		
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You do realise that if trade is going backwards and forwards ok, and then the French decide to block it unilaterally they could so easily find themselves in the WTO court. And it won't be the first time that France, and Germany, has been up before the WTO court for blocking trade.

Ah but that won't suit your argument will it. "Unilaterally block," get real.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There's a shock... you saying how wonderful the EU is without mentioning the FACT that the UK is ahead of the EU in technical notices issued. Have yourself a Google search on the complaints coming from the EU 27 about the lack of support coming out of Brussels. You need to read EU media as well has UK Remain, and get some balance to what you say.

You really are completely and utterly blinkered.
		
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Why on earth should I be going to the EU media for my information.  If this is the case then the UK media is not doing their job - and they did their anti-EU job pretty well for the last 4 decades spinning rubbish about the EU so I wouldn't expect to have to look hard for EU27 business concerns over readiness.  

The fact that I may be misinformed suggests that the vast majority of the UK electorate may well remain pretty much ill-informed about this stuff also.  Sending me to read EU media to raise my understanding rather misses the point about UK citizens trying to understand what the heck is going on.

And, in truth, whatever EU27 business say about their readiness or lack of it when faced with a No Deal UK exit - I frankly don't really give a monkeys - as it is UK business, industry and supply chains that are going to be affected and that will affect us here.  That the UK may have issued 100s of technical notices does not tell me anything about business readiness.

If numbers of technical notices issued is a measure of readiness then how come just about everything I hear from business and industry - and now the government's own Yellowhammer assessment published earlier this month - raises concerns about UK readiness - despite Gove and his crew tell us how well positioned everything is now - and how much things have improved in the last 4 weeks.  Really?

If I felt that I was in a small minority of the electorate that is uninformed about such as readiness of EU27 business for a No Deal UK Exit, then I would take the criticism as absolutely merited - but I am trying to understand.  

And what I read of Yellowhammer yesterday in the ST was not great; it was not a worst case - and the ST said very clearly that this was not project fear - but project reality. That the government are making such a fuss about it being leaked - and it should not have had to be leaked - why could they just not tell us that this is what might well happen.  I read the ST.  So I am informed about Yellowhammer.  I suspect that the vast majority of the electorate have not read it - and are ill-informed by what they hear from Gove.

So with JO'B on holiday this week I listen to his sub Maajid Nawaz.  And the absolute ignorance some callers to him had about what leaving the EU with No Deal -means - and why we can't just have new trade deals in place with the Eu and the USA etc by 31/10 is eye-opening - if I hadn't heard it endless times before over the last three years.  And that is without JO'B in the seat.

So please point out where my understanding is lacking - but please don't criticise me too harshly for not knowing.  Very few of us know.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Shock and horror! UK Prime minister visits French and German heads of state for talks.  What next eh!

See you've reverted back to your silly BeeJay name calling.  Thought you had got over that silly little episode.
		
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Except he has been telling us that he wasn't going to engage in any talks - telling Macron and Merkel about his determination to leave 31/10 on No Deal if there is no deal agreed is setting out a negotiating position - or are you now going to tell me that in your extensive experience of negotiating you've never set out your stall as part of your negotiations.  He is negotiating when he said he wasn't going to.

And I'll call Johnson exactly what I want.  It is no more name calling than calling him nice cuddly BoJo (as far as I am concerned he's not nice - he's not cuddly) any more than some of the names Jo Swinson has been called on here of late - and I didn't see you call foul on those doing such name calling - as you do not call out those ridiculing Diane Abbott and Nicola Sturgeon with silly epithets.

There is nothing name calling about BeeJay - unless you didn't spot it BeeJay simply a phonetic representation of BJ. Tough you don't like it.  Maybe I'll consider your feelings and not use it again.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You do realise that if trade is going backwards and forwards ok, and then the French decide to block it unilaterally they could so easily find themselves in the WTO court. And it won't be the first time that France, and Germany, has been up before the WTO court for blocking trade.

Ah but that won't suit your argument will it. "Unilaterally block," get real.
		
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How can you unilaterally block something by removing measures that were not there before - but that you have unilaterally put in place to facilitate trade - measures you have had to put in place to mitigate the impact of actions of a third party that disrupt trade.  Maybe you can.


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## Hobbit (Aug 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why on earth should I be going to the EU media for my information.  If this is the case then the UK media is not doing their job - and they did their anti-EU job pretty well for the last 4 decades spinning rubbish about the EU so I wouldn't expect to have to look hard for EU27 business concerns over readiness. 

The fact that I may be misinformed suggests that the vast majority of the UK electorate may well remain pretty much ill-informed about this stuff also.  Sending me to read EU media to raise my understanding rather misses the point about UK citizens trying to understand what the heck is going on.

And, in truth, whatever EU27 business say about their readiness or lack of it when faced with a No Deal UK exit - I frankly don't really give a monkeys - as it is UK business, industry and supply chains that are going to be affected and that will affect us here.  That the UK may have issued 100s of technical notices does not tell me anything about business readiness.

If numbers of technical notices issued is a measure of readiness then how come just about everything I hear from business and industry - and now the government's own Yellowhammer assessment published earlier this month - raises concerns about UK readiness - despite Gove and his crew tell us how well positioned everything is now - and how much things have improved in the last 4 weeks.  Really?

If I felt that I was in a small minority of the electorate that is uninformed about such as readiness of EU27 business for a No Deal UK Exit, then I would take the criticism as absolutely merited - but I am trying to understand. 

And what I read of Yellowhammer yesterday in the ST was not great; it was not a worst case - and the ST said very clearly that this was not project fear - but project reality. That the government are making such a fuss about it being leaked - and it should not have had to be leaked - why could they just not tell us that this is what might well happen.  I read the ST.  So I am informed about Yellowhammer.  I suspect that the vast majority of the electorate have not read it - and are ill-informed by what they hear from Gove.

So with JO'B on holiday this week I listen to his sub Maajid Nawaz.  And the absolute ignorance some callers to him had about what leaving the EU with No Deal -means - and why we can't just have new trade deals in place with the Eu and the USA etc by 31/10 is eye-opening - if I hadn't heard it endless times before over the last three years.  And that is without JO'B in the seat.

So please point out where my understanding is lacking - but please don't criticise me too harshly for not knowing.  Very few of us know.
		
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Your lack of understanding leads to a lack of balance in your posting. And your desire NOT to look at the EU media only highlights your bias - seem to remember you're keen enough to post up US media in another thread coz it suits. And that is what grinds my gears. You preach and preach and preach, like a zealot, and now you admit you don't going looking for both sides of the story... how very, very disappointing.

You continually point out the perceived bad in the UK's handling of Brexit, some of which is deserved BTW, and Yellowhammer is a prime example. First of all, Yellowhammer is worst case - nowt wrong with that. Secondly, and more importantly, it was penned under May and Hammond who managed the process very differently to the current govt, who are going hell for leather in mitigating things - Hammond wouldn't release money for planning that other ministers realised was needed and asked for.

The releasing of the Yellowhammer assessment by a previous minister is disingenuous at best, and could be argued as being not in the UK's best interests. That ex-minister will know of the accelerated planning that has been going on in recent weeks yet decided to release something that may well be out of date in a number of areas. Disgraceful! Personally, if it wasn't for the slender majority of one, of which I dare say some wouldn't vote for the govt anyway, I'd remove the Whip from whoever released the assessment.


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## Hobbit (Aug 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How can you unilaterally block something by removing measures that were not there before - but that you have unilaterally put in place to facilitate trade - measures you have had to put in place to mitigate the impact of actions of a third party that disrupt trade.  Maybe you can.
		
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How about "implied terms." By putting something in place you have created terms for trade. A court makes an assumption that by putting terms in place there is an agreement in principle.


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That applies both ways...
		
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Which will mean the chaos of Operation Stack!


Hobbit said:



			... do you honestly believe that the EU will block medicines coming from the UK? Have a look at the proportion of medicines exported by the UK into the EU - its a massive % of the EU's needs.
		
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It's not 'the EU' as such, but could be a consequence of any industrial action - or 'system' (not necessarily IT!) failure.
It's why Calais is so important to UK, but is about to be moved a significant further distance from 'UK influence'.


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## Hobbit (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Which will mean the chaos of Operation Stack!

It's not 'the EU' as such, but could be a consequence of any indusrial action - or 'system' (not necessarily IT!) failure.
It's why Calais is so important to UK, but is about to be moved a significant further distance from 'UK influence'.
		
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Industrial action applies whether the UK stays in the EU or not, and has little to do with any potential trade deal or WTO terms. And, maybe, when outside the EU the UK could argue restraint of trade via a WTO court rather than a potentially biassed ECJ.

As for the failure of a system; what has that got to do with the Brexit argument. Systems could fail at any time, again, irrespective of being in or out of the EU. 

Not sure how an off chance happenstance is really relevant to the Brexit argument.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except he has been telling us that he wasn't going to engage in any talks - telling Macron and Merkel about his determination to leave 31/10 on No Deal if there is no deal agreed is setting out a negotiating position - or are you now going to tell me that in your extensive experience of negotiating you've never set out your stall as part of your negotiations.  He is negotiating when he said he wasn't going to.

And I'll call Johnson exactly what I want.  It is no more name calling than calling him nice cuddly BoJo (as far as I am concerned he's not nice - he's not cuddly) any more than some of the names Jo Swinson has been called on here of late - and I didn't see you call foul on those doing such name calling - as you do not call out those ridiculing Diane Abbott and Nicola Sturgeon with silly epithets.

There is nothing name calling about BeeJay - unless you didn't spot it BeeJay simply a phonetic representation of BJ. Tough you don't like it.  Maybe I'll consider your feelings and not use it again.
		
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He's not there for talks with Barnier, he's meeting with the two major EU heads of state, I am not aware he has said he would not meet with them.  Regarding your BeeJay, are you really so naive that you are unaware of the sexual connotations associated with that term ðŸ˜§


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He's not there for talks with Barnier, he's meeting with the two major EU heads of state, I am not aware he has said he would not meet with them.  Regarding your BeeJay, are you really so naive that you are unaware of the sexual connotations associated with that term ðŸ˜§
		
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Perhaps you should peruse this article...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48752222 
If the (over)PC Beeb don't have a problem with 'BJ' I don't believe anyone should!


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## Fade and Die (Aug 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except he has been telling us that he wasn't going to engage in any talks - telling Macron and Merkel about his determination to leave 31/10 on No Deal if there is no deal agreed is setting out a negotiating position - or are you now going to tell me that in your extensive experience of negotiating you've never set out your stall as part of your negotiations.  He is negotiating when he said he wasn't going to.

And I'll call Johnson exactly what I want.  It is no more name calling than calling him nice cuddly BoJo (as far as I am concerned he's not nice - he's not cuddly) any more than some of the names Jo Swinson has been called on here of late - and I didn't see you call foul on those doing such name calling - as you do not call out those ridiculing Diane Abbott and Nicola Sturgeon with silly epithets.

There is nothing name *calling about BeeJay - unless you didn't spot it BeeJay simply a phonetic representation of BJ.* Tough you don't like it.  Maybe I'll consider your feelings and not use it again.
		
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Just call him Boris FFS! 

You obviously know BJ is a reference to oral sex so why persist? Itâ€™s immature and makes you seem childish.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps you should peruse this article...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48752222
If the (over)PC Beeb don't have a problem with 'BJ' I don't believe anyone should!
		
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Only after using full names in the beginning... Hogan uses it as a childish jibe. Honestly I find it cringeworthy to read.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps you should peruse this article...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48752222
If the (over)PC Beeb don't have a problem with 'BJ' I don't believe anyone should!
		
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I think Hogan makes himself look silly, the BBC are out and out nut jobs.


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Only after using full names in the beginning... Hogan uses it as a childish jibe. Honestly I find it cringeworthy to read.
		
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In your opinion!

I'm afraid BoJo is stuck with the less 'tasteful' moniker. Boris isn't even his first name, so it was his choice!


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## MegaSteve (Aug 19, 2019)

As someone who has occasionally been known to frequent hosteleries in Boris's manor... Calling him BJ is probably the most pleasant term to be heard...


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think Hogan makes himself look silly, the BBC are out and out nut jobs.
		
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Well, that's put everyone in their proper place then! 'No opinions that differ from mine allowed!'


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Well, that's put everyone in their proper place then! 'No opinions that differ from mine allowed!' 

Click to expand...

ER! Where did I say that "I think" may have been a clue  that it was MY opinion ðŸ™„

Have you ever worked for the BBC?


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49397728 

Sadly, this sort of thing is actually what has to be planned for! It's no criticism nor anti-Brexit post, simply the realism of the minutae of what's involved!


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## chrisd (Aug 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Only after using full names in the beginning... Hogan uses it as a childish jibe. Honestly I find it cringeworthy to read.
		
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I'm sure you're with me in taking the view that it matters not a jot what SILH thinks about Brexit, and I frankly have got totally bored with the silly names he's used as well as his insults as a leave voter ðŸ‘


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## Parsaregood (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49397728 

Sadly, this sort of thing is actually what has to be planned for! It's no criticism nor anti-Brexit post, simply the realism of the minutae of what's involved!
		
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This is sadly another ridiculous article from the biased broadcasting corporation, when are they going to stop with rubbish. Have you heard the sun will rise 15 minutes later than it normally would on the 1/11. Also there's to be a continuous cover of black clouds over the UK for the first 3 weeks after leaving


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			ER! Where did I say that "I think" may have been a clue  that it was MY opinion ðŸ™„
		
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My point still applies - imo of course.


SocketRocket said:



			Have you ever worked for the BBC?
		
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Why do you ask?


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## Fade and Die (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49397728

Sadly, this sort of thing is actually what has to be planned for! It's no criticism nor anti-Brexit post, simply the realism of the minutae of what's involved!
		
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Honestly, an article full of â€œmightsâ€ and â€œmaybesâ€ is it worth posting?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Why do you ask?
		
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Again the answer to that is in my post.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm sure you're with me in taking the view that it matters not a jot what SILH thinks about Brexit, and I frankly have got totally bored with the silly names he's used as well as his insults as a leave voter ðŸ‘
		
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I agree but I do cringe when I read a retiree making comments that a 13 year old boy would snigger to!


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Honestly, an article *full of â€œmightsâ€ and â€œmaybesâ€ *is it worth posting?
		
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That's precisely what Brexit planning is!

If your company (assuming you are in one) isn't doing some sort of mitigation planning, then they are unprofessional!


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Again the answer to that is in my post.
		
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Not obviously to me...please explain.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That's precisely what Brexit planning is!

If your company (assuming you are in one) isn't diing some sort of mitigation planning, then they are unprofessional!
		
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Seeing as they are lying (sorry, speculating) anyway, then why not just say â€œmass murder and wholesale riotingâ€.
Itâ€™d be even more dramatic!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49397728

Sadly, this sort of thing is actually what has to be planned for! It's no criticism nor anti-Brexit post, simply the realism of the minutae of what's involved!
		
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It's the BBC trying to scare vunerable people.  Why would imported food be more expensive or at risk of supply unless the UK government deemed it. There's more chance of EU countries having shortages if our freight cannot enter their countries.


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## drdel (Aug 19, 2019)

It might be worth noting that the PM is going to Germany and France ahead of the G7, Brexit is not the focus of these meetings but will obviously be dicussed. 

The doom and gloom merchants might want to remember that we survived the 20+ weeks when the French all but closed calais. The ex boss of M&S, a Remainer, also said in 2016 that the  flows would be virtually unchanged, even with no negotiated agreements.


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Seeing as they are lying (sorry, speculating) anyway, then why not just say â€œmass murder and wholesale riotingâ€.
Itâ€™d be even more dramatic!
		
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An exerpt from the 1st paragraph of the article...'according to internal local council planning documents seen by the BBC'

So it's not them that are saying it! They are merely reporting it - and, unlike other media giants, there are ways set up to challenge their version.


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It's the BBC trying to scare vunerable people.  Why would imported food be more expensive or at risk of supply unless the UK government deemed it. There's more chance of EU countries having shortages if our freight cannot enter their countries.
		
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Because (from memory) about 30% of our food comes from the EU - and Brexit is a 'threat to that supply'!


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## Fade and Die (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			An exerpt from the 1st paragraph of the article...'according to internal local council planning documents seen by the BBC'

So it's not them that are saying it! They are merely reporting it - and, unlike other media giants, there are ways set up to challenge their version.
		
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Er....Donâ€™t think I mentioned the beeb in my comment did I?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Because (from memory) about 30% of our food comes from the EU - and Brexit is a 'threat to that supply'!
		
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Why is it a threat unless our government make it one by putting high tarrifs on fresh food or holding up freight coming into the UK.


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Er....Donâ€™t think I mentioned the beeb in my comment did I?
		
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So are you saying 'many councils' are 'lying (sorry speculating)' when all the indicators are that that's exactly what will happen?

Talk about head-in-the-sand dogma!


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why is it a threat unless our government make it one by putting high tarrifs on fresh food or holding up freight coming into the UK.
		
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Have a read.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/18/leaked-memo-predicts-shortage-food-medicine-no-deal-brexit-10589863/
Hopefully nowhere this level, but if there wasn't a threat, why would all the supermarkets and other suppliers be stockpiling so much and doing so much (contingency) planning?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So are you saying 'many councils' are 'lying (sorry speculating)' *when all the indicators are that that's exactly what will happen?*

Talk about head-in-the-sand dogma! 

Click to expand...

Only when trying to scare people.  Explain the mechanisms that would create it.


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## MegaSteve (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It's the BBC trying to scare vunerable people.  Why would imported food be more expensive or at risk of supply unless the UK government deemed it. There's more chance of EU countries having shortages if our freight cannot enter their countries.
		
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Because business likes to take advantage of 'situations' in the same way speculators play silly buggers effecting the exchange rate...


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Only when trying to scare people.  Explain the mechanisms that would create it.
		
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Not for me to do so! Though the simple word 'Brexit' might cover most of it!

I know my company is doing considerable planning to mitigate perceived issues.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Have a read.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/18/leaked-memo-predicts-shortage-food-medicine-no-deal-brexit-10589863/
Hopefully nowhere this level, but if there wasn't a threat, why would all the supermarkets and other suppliers be stockpiling so much and doing so much (contingency) planning?
		
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Have you read and considered that article.  Once again, supply and price of goods entering the UK will be under the control of the UK authorities.  Also, we dont import much refined fuel, again those projections are based on the UK placing low fuel tariffs so that UK refineries would close.  It's all Twaddle.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So are you saying 'many councils' are 'lying (sorry speculating)' when all the indicators are that that's exactly what will happen?

Talk about head-in-the-sand dogma! 

Click to expand...

There isnâ€™t a council in this country that wouldnâ€™t jump at the chance to wring itâ€™s hands and say it needs more money...

I dunno, maybe try to look at all angles?


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Have you read and considered that article.  Once again, supply and price of goods entering the UK will be under the control of the UK authorities.  Also, we dont import much refined fuel, again those projections are based on the UK placing low fuel tariffs so that UK refineries would close.  It's all Twaddle.
		
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Maybe not much 'refined' fuel, but over 50% of fuel overall!

Twaddle abounds!


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			There isnâ€™t a council in this country that wouldnâ€™t jump at the chance to wring itâ€™s hands and say it needs more money...

I dunno, maybe try to look at all angles?
		
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Have you ever considered Politics as a career? 

What makes you think I haven't 'looked at all angles' and rejected the ridiculous ones?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Maybe not much 'refined' fuel, but over 50% of fuel overall!

Twaddle abounds!
		
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Yes, twaddle does abound. Unrefined fuel that comes by ship from outside the EU. It's supply will not be affected by Brexit.
What about the other points I have made in responce to the article you posted, do you have any comments?


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, twaddle does abound. Unrefined fuel that comes by ship. It's supply will not be affected by Brexit.
What about the other points I have made in responce to the article you posted, do you have any comments?
		
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No. We are just going round in circles - and old ground, which you've got you head firmly stuck in!


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## Hobbit (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Maybe not much 'refined' fuel, but over 50% of fuel overall!

Twaddle abounds!
		
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Not much refined? Only 28% of refined fuel comes from the EU, Sweden and the Netherlands. But if the other 72% of fuel was no longer subject to import duty of 7%... now there's a Brexit bonus.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No. We are just going round in circles - and old ground, which you've got you head firmly stuck in!
		
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OK. Here's an article you may wish to read that explains how we would be affected by a clean Brexit.  Maybe you could get your head out the sand and read it. You may even learn somthing:
https://briefingsforbrexit.com/no-deal-is-no-nightmare-facts-about-eu-trade-after-brexit/


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## drdel (Aug 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Not much refined? Only 28% of refined fuel comes from the EU, Sweden and the Netherlands. But if the other 72% of fuel was no longer subject to import duty of 7%... now there's a Brexit bonus.
		
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Exactly unless the EU slaps export tariffs all the European exporters will still want to sell and the UK is not going to place taxes to disadvantage international imports -especially given the state of world trade!


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## drdel (Aug 19, 2019)

There is a full copy of the PM's letter to Tusk: worth a read IMO...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...son-irish-backstop-eu-deal-donald-tusk-letter


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			There is a full copy of the PM's letter to Tusk: worth a read IMO...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...son-irish-backstop-eu-deal-donald-tusk-letter

Click to expand...

And I expect the EU will just shrug their shoulders 

Itâ€™s the UK leaving the EU - any deal will favour the EU , if the UK donâ€™t like it - tough. 

Far too much crying and bleating about how unfair the EU are towards the UK because of Brexit - what the hell did the expect , did they think the EU would bend over backwards to make sure any deal is great for the UK


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## robinthehood (Aug 19, 2019)

https://newsthump.com/2019/08/19/op...-be-ignored-insists-government-that-wrote-it/


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And I expect the EU will just shrug their shoulders

Itâ€™s the UK leaving the EU - any deal will favour the EU , if the UK donâ€™t like it - tough.

Far too much crying and bleating about how unfair the EU are towards the UK because of Brexit - what the hell did the expect , did they think the EU would bend over backwards to make sure any deal is great for the UK
		
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But No Deal will hurt them as well.  What do they have to gain by not having a trade deal with the UK, I'll tell you what 'nothing but pain'.

I predict that if we leave without a deal they will want us to agree a Canada Plus type deal asap.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But No Deal will hurt them as well.  What do they have to gain by not having a trade deal with the UK, I'll tell you what 'nothing but pain'.

I predict that if we leave without a deal they will want us to agree a Canada Plus type deal asap.
		
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A no deal has the potential to hurt the UK more - even more so when we will then be the one looking for deals with our hands out. The UK needs a deal and itâ€™s prob going to get one worse than being in the EU ðŸ˜‚ - can only laugh at how much of a complete cluster mess the UK political parties have made of this situation


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## Hobbit (Aug 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A no deal has the potential to hurt the UK more - even more so when we will then be the one looking for deals with our hands out. The UK needs a deal and itâ€™s prob going to get one worse than being in the EU ðŸ˜‚ - can only laugh at how much of a complete cluster mess the UK political parties have made of this situation
		
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I think its fairly obvious that the terms will be worse than being otherwise every country in the EU will be offski. The unknown is how well the UK will fair with the freedoms it will gain.

As for the cluster; spot on. What a bunch of wimps and egomaniacs there are in Parliament.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A no deal has the potential to hurt the UK more - even more so when we will then be the one looking for deals with our hands out. The UK needs a deal and itâ€™s prob going to get one worse than being in the EU ðŸ˜‚ - can only laugh at how much of a complete cluster mess the UK political parties have made of this situation
		
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You almost sound as if you want the UK to fail.  We are facing a change in trading arangements not signing a surrender article at the end of a war. It's all blown out of context and I can only laugh ðŸ¤£ at those not capable of questioning it.  We can manage without a deal but it would be better for all sides if we agreed a simple free trade arrangement,even you must see this.
Regarding the mess the UK political parties have made, I agree whole heartedly. At least we have someone with a bit of backbone trying to get it sorted now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*You almost sound as if you want the UK to fail.  *We are facing a change in trading arangements not signing a surrender article at the end of a war. It's all blown out of context and I can only laugh ðŸ¤£ at those not capable of questioning it.  We can manage without a deal but it would be better for all sides if we agreed a simple free trade arrangement,even you must see this.
Regarding the mess the UK political parties have made, I agree whole heartedly. At least we have someone with a bit of backbone trying to get it sorted now.
		
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I see nothing has changed on here then ðŸ™„

Will exit the thread once again.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://newsthump.com/2019/08/19/op...-be-ignored-insists-government-that-wrote-it/

Click to expand...

Spot on.
Mind you, I am still smiling at the snowflakes on here who call Dianne Abbott, Jo Swinson and Nicola Sturgeon [note all women ] the most childish silly names are greatly upset that their desperately poor PM is called BJ


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Not much refined? Only 28% of refined fuel comes from the EU, Sweden and the Netherlands. But if the other 72% of fuel was no longer subject to import duty of 7%... now there's a Brexit bonus.
		
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Would it? That would mean UK-inc losing all that revenue. I'm pretty certain that duty wouldn't disappear - certainly not overnight!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I see nothing has changed on here then ðŸ™„

Will exit the thread once again.
		
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Great ðŸ‘ take care out there.


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...

I predict that if we leave without a deal they will want us to agree a Canada Plus type deal asap.
		
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Care to put a tenner wager on the time period in which that will happen - aka be ratified? Proceeds going to H4H of course!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Care to put a tenner wager on the time period in which that will happen - aka be ratified? Proceeds going to H4H of course!
		
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Not really as the time frame with politicians is unpredictable.   Does it need to be accurate, if so within what tolerance, a day, a month, six months , a year.  Are you suggesting it will not happen, if that's the case then yes.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 20, 2019)

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...s-uk-eu-brexit-no-deal-peter-marshall-comment


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## Parsaregood (Aug 20, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And I expect the EU will just shrug their shoulders 

Itâ€™s the UK leaving the EU - any deal will favour the EU , if the UK donâ€™t like it - tough. 

Far too much crying and bleating about how unfair the EU are towards the UK because of Brexit - what the hell did the expect , did they think the EU would bend over backwards to make sure any deal is great for the UK
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this sort of deal will be rejected in parliament again, no choice but to leave with no deal in that case. Nobody wishes to be part of this undemocratic state any longer, thank God we're going


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 20, 2019)

'Boris Johnson holding his finger in the dam of bursting truth'
Nice bit of writing.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 20, 2019)

Following Borisâ€™s letter to the EU last night, the EU Commission has written to the Council in response to the points raised by the PM, refusing to budge on the Backstop and rejecting Borisâ€™s accusation that it is not democratic. _Shows what passes for â€˜democracyâ€™ in the eyes of the EUâ€¦ _
The letter claims the UK has offered â€œ_no realistic alternativesâ€, but says _the Commission is â€œ_ready to work constructively within our mandateâ€ _and will â€œ_analyse any operational UK ideas that are compatible with the existing WAâ€._


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## Hobbit (Aug 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Following Borisâ€™s letter to the EU last night, the EU Commission has written to the Council in response to the points raised by the PM, refusing to budge on the Backstop and rejecting Borisâ€™s accusation that it is not democratic. _Shows what passes for â€˜democracyâ€™ in the eyes of the EUâ€¦ _
The letter claims the UK has offered â€œ_no realistic alternativesâ€, but says _the Commission is â€œ_ready to work constructively within our mandateâ€ _and will â€œ_analyse any operational UK ideas that are compatible with the existing WAâ€._

Click to expand...

Whilst I agree that something needs to be in place that 'protects' the Good Friday Agreement I do think that the backstop proposed only, on the surface, recognises one side of the political divide. Its a halfway house to a united Ireland which many won't not accept under any circumstances. And in that respect I feel that the EU, at best, does not understand the issue at all. Although I'm more inclined to think the EU is being disgustingly opportunist.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 20, 2019)

Johnson keeps saying that there will be no checks on the NI Border.
In BJSPEAK this actually means that the checks will be 300 yards from the border.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson keeps saying that there will be no checks on the NI Border.
In BJSPEAK this actually means that the checks will be 300 yards from the border. 

Click to expand...

I think he means the border posts that are going to be attacked and set fire to will be Irish / EU checkpoints manned by Irish staff, not UK staff. On the border or 300yds from the border, any check point on the NI side is not going to fair well and he doesn't want to be linked to them.


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## drdel (Aug 20, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And *I expect the EU will just shrug their shoulders*

Itâ€™s the UK leaving the EU - any deal will favour the EU , if the UK donâ€™t like it - tough.

Far too much crying and bleating about how unfair the EU are towards the UK because of Brexit - what the hell did the expect , did they think the EU would bend over backwards to make sure any deal is great for the UK
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately you're probably right it is the style of a bureaucratic management process. Not that they care but it is not in accord with the goals of the text of the Article 50.


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## Foxholer (Aug 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Unfortunately you're probably right it is the style of a bureaucratic management process. Not that they care *but it is not in accord with the goals of the text of the Article 50.*

Click to expand...

Eh? What 'goals'? Except 'Here's the process by which a Member State can leave'! Can you point to some text that defines 'the goals of the text of A50' that isn't simply 'opinion' (o simply a reference to it as a process of course'?


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## spongebob59 (Aug 20, 2019)

Robert Peston

@Peston
Â·
1h

As you know I take view EU wonâ€™t negotiate elimination of backstop. And Brussels sources corroborate today. BUT intriguingly there are tiny hints in Whitehall that in back channels EU & some member states hint at concessions on backstop. No10 keeping this extremely tight.


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## Mudball (Aug 20, 2019)

So our fearless leader has said we will leave on Halloween .. so a simple question, when the dust has settled and we have taken control (whatever that means).  What is the glorious future we await?  

We will still have to adhere to EU regulations if we want to trade with the EU (same as what we do with US at the moment)

Is Freedom of Movement the only thing that we will control?  

The farmers and fisheries guys weâ€™re an intrinsic part of the referendum but all now claim that they stand to lose!! We now have a magic money tree for NHS (even before leaving) 

If everyone claims they are going to lose, who is to gain from us leaving?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 20, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So our fearless leader has said we will leave on Halloween .. so a simple question, when the dust has settled and we have taken control (whatever that means).  What is the glorious future we await? 

We will still have to adhere to EU regulations if we want to trade with the EU (same as what we do with US at the moment)

Is Freedom of Movement the only thing that we will control? 

The farmers and fisheries guys weâ€™re an intrinsic part of the referendum but all now claim that they stand to lose!! We now have a magic money tree for NHS (even before leaving)

If everyone claims they are going to lose, who is to gain from us leaving?
		
Click to expand...

Turkey and Make America Great Again.


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## Papas1982 (Aug 20, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So our fearless leader has said we will leave on Halloween .. so a simple question, when the dust has settled and we have taken control (whatever that means).  What is the glorious future we await? 

We will still have to adhere to EU regulations if we want to trade with the EU (same as what we do with US at the moment)

Is Freedom of Movement the only thing that we will control? 

The farmers and fisheries guys weâ€™re an intrinsic part of the referendum but all now claim that they stand to lose!! We now have a magic money tree for NHS (even before leaving)

If everyone claims they are going to lose, *who is to gain from us leaving*?
		
Click to expand...

Anybody working my industry (customs clearance). Plus lots who currently donâ€™t but will find employment as the market place will be manic. 

The politicians will of course carry on getting paid regardless too. Theyâ€™ll just find something else to justify their roles.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 20, 2019)

I mainly voted Brexit to stop the Freedom of movement. Less cheap foreign labour flooding the market the better. Would be nice to think in a few years time I will hear a few more English voices on site again. ðŸ‘

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-49393556

Happy days.


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## robinthehood (Aug 20, 2019)

Nothing,  same old same old.
Something new to blame will need to be found though .


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## Mudball (Aug 20, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Anybody working my industry (customs clearance). Plus lots who currently donâ€™t but will find employment as the market place will be manic.

The politicians will of course carry on getting paid regardless too. Theyâ€™ll just find something else to justify their roles.
		
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Finally a found an industry that will benefit..  Customs Clearance.. can see the logic there




Fade and Die said:



			I mainly voted Brexit to stop the Freedom of movement. Less cheap foreign labour flooding the market the better. Would be nice to think in a few years time I will hear a few more English voices on site again. ðŸ‘

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-49393556

Happy days.
		
Click to expand...

I can see the logic here.  However, this has a lot of ramification.  Would we have many 'English speaking' folks to fill all jobs.  If I can speak English and I am a good bricklayer from the EU, do i automatically qualify on the points based system and therefore back in play.   
Also, if there arent enuf people going around, then does it mean cost will go up as a knockon effect of wage inflation (not always a bad thing provided this is across the board)


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## Mudball (Aug 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Nothing,  same old same old.
Something new to blame will need to be found though .
		
Click to expand...

Weather...  bloody cant make up its mind... but we can leave it nor remain it.   Next referendum on 'Should day light saving be stopped'... lets take back control of GMT and ditch BST.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 20, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Finally a found an industry that will benefit..  Customs Clearance.. can see the logic there




I can see the logic here.  However, this has a lot of ramification.  Would we have many 'English speaking' folks to fill all jobs.  If I can speak English and I am a good bricklayer from the EU, do i automatically qualify on the points based system and therefore back in play.  
Also, if there arent enuf people going around, then does it mean cost will go up as a knockon effect of wage inflation (not always a bad thing provided this is across the board)
		
Click to expand...

If you meet the criteria then you should certainly be let in. Iâ€™m not for cutting of our noses to spite our faces  But I would like to see the return of proper apprenticeships for the young lads and lasses with a guarantee of a job at the end of it, not just a flood of foreign labour pushing prices down.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 20, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So our fearless leader has said we will leave on Halloween .. so a simple question, when the dust has settled and we have taken control (whatever that means).  What is the glorious future we await?

We will still have to adhere to EU regulations if we want to trade with the EU (same as what we do with US at the moment)

Is Freedom of Movement the only thing that we will control?

The farmers and fisheries guys weâ€™re an intrinsic part of the referendum but all now claim that they stand to lose!! We now have a magic money tree for NHS (even before leaving)

If everyone claims they are going to lose, who is to gain from us leaving?
		
Click to expand...

Who said the future will be glorious?  It will be our future and a future we can make of what we work for, no one else's just ours, good or bad our own.

We will only need to abide by trading standards just like all other countries in the world do, nothing special just the same way any other independant nation does, also like countries trading with us will have to do.  We will no longer be subservent  to the ECJ, our own justice system will be supreme.

Freedom of movement is just something special to the EU, no other country insists you have to allow their citizens the right to enter your country and stay so you can trade with them. Just imagine how that would work. We don't want to stop immigration, just control it such that it works in our interest as a country.

Farmers are never happy, never have been, never will be but you will never see one on a bike. We need to make better use of our own produce rather than import it where we dont need to. Fishermen are concerned we will sell them out in exchange for a trade deal, just like Maybot was planning to do.

We have heard all the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the socialites regarding austerity and how unnecessary it is. Now Boris is prepared to start spending its decryed as wrong.  Make your minds up please!

Some may prefer to remain and that's their prerogative,  it doesn't make them stupid though but one would hope they would still have an understanding that their view isnt necessarily the prevailing one and be able to show a modicum of reality and balance.


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## jp5 (Aug 21, 2019)

So Boris' big idea seems to be wanting an EU country to abide by ours laws over theirs. Genius.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2019)

jp5 said:



			So Boris' big idea seems to be wanting an EU country to abide by ours laws over theirs. Genius.
		
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Is it?


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## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2019)

jp5 said:



			So Boris' big idea seems to be wanting an EU country to abide by ours laws over theirs. Genius.
		
Click to expand...

Which EU country is this?


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## spongebob59 (Aug 21, 2019)

One of the staunchest defenders of Theresa Mayâ€™s deal has waded into the Backstop debateâ€¦ on the side of Boris Johnson. _For hacks who have endured months of Gibbâ€™s impassioned defence of the agreement, this may come as a bit of a surpriseâ€¦_ 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1164108145339392002


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## drdel (Aug 21, 2019)

I see Scotland is running the largest deficit in EU at 7% GDP. well ahead of Cyprus at 4.5.

The overspend of about Â£2,500 per person is obviously the fault of Brexit! Sturgeon/SNP clearly wants the EU to cough up the Â£12bn pa. I guess she hasn't read the EU's recession risks and falling Exports or the ECB's plan on restructuring due to the EU being an export led economy.


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## drdel (Aug 21, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			One of the staunchest defenders of Theresa Mayâ€™s deal has waded into the Backstop debateâ€¦ on the side of Boris Johnson. _For hacks who have endured months of Gibbâ€™s impassioned defence of the agreement, this may come as a bit of a surpriseâ€¦_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1164108145339392002

Click to expand...

I think logic long left the building. Juncker's had gall bladder surgery and so the EU's decision-making (such as it is) has stopped!


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 21, 2019)

All the talk at the minute seems to be about the backstop. Perhaps someone could explain why the EU are unwilling to remove it. Ireland have said they will not put up a hard border in Ireland. The UK have said there will be no hard border even in the event of no deal. The EU have said they won't put up a hard border even if there is no deal. And yet the EU say that the backstop is essential to avoid a hard border. If none of the parties are going to put up a hard border in the event of no deal why do we need the backstop to remain in the agreement?


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## drdel (Aug 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			All the talk at the minute seems to be about the backstop. Perhaps someone could explain why the EU are unwilling to remove it. Ireland have said they will not put up a hard border in Ireland. The UK have said there will be no hard border even in the event of no deal. The EU have said they won't put up a hard border even if there is no deal. And yet the EU say that the backstop is essential to avoid a hard border. If none of the parties are going to put up a hard border in the event of no deal why do we need the backstop to remain in the agreement?
		
Click to expand...

We can't open because 'we' wrote it and don't want to! The sop of a reason is demonstrable control and Tax. After 2 world wars and several decades of membership the EU doesn't trust the UK to collect/monitor cross border activity.

The G7 meet tomorrow. That's Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Of these '7' Italy and France are in serious financial bother and Germany is doing its best to join them. Juncker's is not attending for medical reasons but I'm at a loss to see his 'country' on the list !!!


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## robinthehood (Aug 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			We can't open because 'we' wrote it and don't want to! The sop of a reason is demonstrable control and Tax. After 2 world wars and several decades of membership the EU doesn't trust the UK to collect/monitor cross border activity.

The G7 meet tomorrow. That's Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Of these '7' Italy and France are in serious financial bother and Germany is doing its best to join them. Juncker's is not attending for medical reasons but I'm at a loss to see his 'country' on the list !!!
		
Click to expand...

You forgot the world cup ðŸ˜‰


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			All the talk at the minute seems to be about the backstop. Perhaps someone could explain why the EU are unwilling to remove it. Ireland have said they will not put up a hard border in Ireland. The UK have said there will be no hard border even in the event of no deal. The EU have said they won't put up a hard border even if there is no deal. And yet the EU say that the backstop is essential to avoid a hard border. If none of the parties are going to put up a hard border in the event of no deal why do we need the backstop to remain in the agreement?
		
Click to expand...

The phrase is 'retaining the integrity of the Single Market'. The EU don't want to be the ones who put up a border in Ireland as they know the sensitiivty of what that means. However they care even more about keeping the advantages of the single market only available to those who are members. If the UK leave and there are no borders to enforce tariffs then N.Ireland, potentially the whole UK, gains the benefits of being in the single market without paying in. Boris is arguing that you don't need borders, there are electronic ways of doing this but I think we have reached a point where people are sticking to principles rather than taking a step back and looking to be pragmatic

The EU will 100% put up a border to protect their closed market, it is less critical for the UK to protect against goods coming in from Ireland. We can play the good cop in this.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 21, 2019)

Surely the answer is to have a border between UK/Ireland and mainland Europe. A large % of Ireland's exports go to the UK and the vast majority of their imports and exports come through the UK. The EU will never agree to it but it's no different to them wanting a border between Ireland (the island) and the rest of the UK. Ireland's economy could go down the toilet in the event of a no deal exit if customs checks are implemented. The EU are already discussing suspending their rules on state aid to allow bailouts to affected Irish companies.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 21, 2019)

Their view, not unreasonable, is that it is the UK that wants to leave, why should the EU have to have one of its members disadvantaged by an aritifical border. I do wonder if the Conservatives had not been in hoc to the DUP whether they would have accepted the customs line down the Irish Sea? That would have unlocked this whole logjam.


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## User62651 (Aug 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



*Surely the answer is to have a border between UK/Ireland and mainland Europe. A large % of Ireland's exports go to the UK and the vast majority of their imports and exports come through the UK*. The EU will never agree to it but *it's no different* to them wanting a border between Ireland (the island) and the rest of the UK. Ireland's economy could go down the toilet in the event of a no deal exit if customs checks are implemented. The EU are already discussing suspending their rules on state aid to allow bailouts to affected Irish companies.
		
Click to expand...

That comes across like the old British colonial attitude, kind of arrogant, just saying. Whatever suits us and to heck with Ireland.

How can it be 'no different', they are in the EU, we're soon not to be?

Didn't Eire invest in some super ferries recently so they could, if needed, try and bypass the UK in terms of trading goods to and from the continent? They were clearly looking at that scenario and they know they are going to be dragged into and negatively affected with BJs Brexit. They will do what they can to reduce the reliance on the UK for goods to and from Eire but that can only go so far.
People will dig their heels in though, it will all be dressed up in diplomacy but they are and will not be looking to give UK any favours in this self-harming identity crisis the UK is going through. What lovely neighbours we are, drag others down with us and no doubt then try and turn the blame on them.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2019)

I have a relative who is involved in Brexit emergency planning at Government level.
He was asked by his father [a staunch Tory supporter] just how bad he thinks things will work out.
Supplies of food/medical/fuel will be catastrophic for at least 6 months was his reply.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 21, 2019)

Fuel is shipped into the UK in huge barges. By their nature they are slow and ponderous. They will leave Rotterdam, paperwork will be sent ahead, customs cleared, well before reaching the UK. They wont be arriving at Dover with overstretched customs officials dealing with it, fighting with a 1,00 lorries. The fuel issue is a red herring, it will be a priority product, we have large storage facilities, it is not fighting for attention at the ports where trouble will occur.

Medical, I'll be staggered if this has problems. Worst case they will fly it over but most tablets are not going to decay en route. If they take an extra few days on a lorry so what? People will order earlier, hold bigger stocks for a spell.

Food. This one could be interesting, largely for fresh produce. That can't be sat at customs but then the European food producers are not going to be happy with their stock going off and being rejected. They will either get on to their own govts to sort it out or we will just go back to having to use seasonal produce again. Ah the crisis, no avocado's in October.

Doon, why will fuel and medicines be catastrophic? What will happen that will cause supply issues for those products that will be so awful?


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## spongebob59 (Aug 21, 2019)

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-08-21...days-in-september-to-deliver-or-block-brexit/


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have a relative who is involved in Brexit emergency planning at Government level.
He was asked by his father [a staunch Tory supporter] just how bad he thinks things will work out.
Supplies of food/medical/fuel will be catastrophic for at least 6 months was his reply.
		
Click to expand...

'Catastrophic' Eh!  I keep hearing this being used but its a grossly exaggerated term and used by those wanting to scare people.   What exactly will this catastrophe be, a lettuce shortage, an average 4% increase in import tariffs  that has been offset by currency fluctuations.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Fuel is shipped into the UK in huge barges. By their nature they are slow and ponderous. They will leave Rotterdam, paperwork will be sent ahead, customs cleared, well before reaching the UK. They wont be arriving at Dover with overstretched customs officials dealing with it, fighting with a 1,00 lorries. The fuel issue is a red herring, it will be a priority product, we have large storage facilities, it is not fighting for attention at the ports where trouble will occur.

Medical, I'll be staggered if this has problems. Worst case they will fly it over but most tablets are not going to decay en route. If they take an extra few days on a lorry so what? People will order earlier, hold bigger stocks for a spell.

Food. This one could be interesting, largely for fresh produce. That can't be sat at customs but then the European food producers are not going to be happy with their stock going off and being rejected. They will either get on to their own govts to sort it out or we will just go back to having to use seasonal produce again. Ah the crisis, no avocado's in October.

Doon, why will fuel and medicines be catastrophic? What will happen that will cause supply issues for those products that will be so awful?
		
Click to expand...

Just passing on what a senior government civil servant involved in Brexit emergency planning told a close relative.
He said the first major problem will be and paper tissue products.
Cant use torn up newspapers now as only the over 70's buy them.

Buying cheap EU fuel will close down our UK refineries.
Many cases of short dated medical products not produced in the UK.
My wife's relatives say they are already struggling to find fresh food products in some SE England supermarkets.

The Zoomers wanted a good ol blighty blitz spirit, looks like BJ is going to deliver that.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just passing on what a senior government civil servant involved in Brexit emergency planning told a close relative.
He said the first major problem will be and paper tissue products.
Cant use torn up newspapers now as only the over 70's buy them.

Buying cheap EU fuel will close down our UK refineries.
Many cases of short dated medical products not produced in the UK.
My wife's relatives say they are already struggling to find fresh food products in some SE England supermarkets.

The Zoomers wanted a good ol blighty blitz spirit, looks like BJ is going to deliver that.
		
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Thats such a stupid set of possibilities and exaggeration but I dont expect any different from the Doomer.


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## ger147 (Aug 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just passing on what a senior government civil servant involved in Brexit emergency planning told a close relative...
		
Click to expand...

Have you reported this breach of the Official Secrets Act?


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## User62651 (Aug 21, 2019)

With reduced insulin, which keeps getting reported as a likely shortage as it's produced in EU, me and over a million others in UK are going to get super thin then sick fairly quickly. That's reasonably catastrophic on a personal level.  It may be scaremongering (don't see why when these are generally civil service reports) and I think it's a resolvable issue but I really don't need this kind of daily reporting, do NHS pay for the new tariffs on EU produced insulin? Do I start trying to over-order it in case there's a shortage? I bet some people are trying that, there will be zero Blitz spirit for those short on daily medicines.

Diabetes UK are covering this issue as they should, would Brexiteers insist they are just scaremongering too?

The Yellowhammer info is not from some rabid Remainer on twitter, it's coming from HM Government and isn't out of date, albeit leaked or else we'd never get close to the facts from increasingly vague and hapless Govt cover up spokespeople like Gove and Cleverly. Johnson yesterday just seemed utterly out of his depth and looked exhausted....already -  "I'll give it some ooomph" was the best he had, really.   Chickens are coming home to roost for that man.


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## Hobbit (Aug 21, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			With reduced insulin, which keeps getting reported as a likely shortage as it's produced in EU, me and over a million others in UK are going to get super thin then sick fairly quickly. That's reasonably catastrophic on a personal level.  It may be scaremongering (don't see why when these are generally civil service reports) and I think it's a resolvable issue but I really don't need this kind of daily reporting, do NHS pay for the new tariffs on EU produced insulin? Do I start trying to over-order it in case there's a shortage? I bet some people are trying that, there will be zero Blitz spirit for those short on daily medicines.

Diabetes UK are covering this issue as they should, would Brexiteers insist they are just scaremongering too?

The Yellowhammer info is not from some rabid Remainer on twitter, it's coming from HM Government and isn't out of date, albeit leaked or else we'd never get close to the facts from increasingly vague and hapless Govt cover up spokespeople like Gove and Cleverly. Johnson yesterday just seemed utterly out of his depth and looked exhausted....already -  "I'll give it some ooomph" was the best he had, really.   Chickens are coming home to roost for that man.
		
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Attached is the Commons Select Committee report on Pharma exports/imports to from the EU. Bear in mind the EU imports Â£24.6 billion worth of Pharma from the UK. Will they really cause problems with medicines?

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmbeis/382/382.pdf


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## drdel (Aug 21, 2019)

DfT, I fear your contact may have less knowledge of international logistics than he/she thinks.

There are more ports than Dover around the UK for bulk goods:  Felixstowe, Bristol
, Liverpool, Hull etc, etc. There are numerous air freighters for time sensitive items. You may not know but lots of Airfreight goes by truck, and lots truckloads by sea and air as logisticians balance routes and capacity utilisation.

A shorterm issue as flows reset and adjust.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just passing on what a senior government civil servant involved in Brexit emergency planning told a close relative.
		
Click to expand...

Was this when he was slipping you the Yellowhammer dosier?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Have you reported this breach of the Official Secrets Act?
		
Click to expand...




Fade and Die said:



			Was this when he was slipping you the Yellowhammer dosier? 

Click to expand...

Two or three weeks before that.
Yellowhammer appears to have been leaked by a Tory minister.

Re medical supplies. https://www.parliament.uk/business/...-2017/cancer-detection-material-supply-17-19/


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			DfT, I fear your contact may have less knowledge of international logistics than he/she thinks.

There are more ports than Dover around the UK for bulk goods:  Felixstowe, Bristol
, Liverpool, Hull etc, etc. There are numerous air freighters for time sensitive items. You may not know but lots of Airfreight goes by truck, and lots truckloads by sea and air as logisticians balance routes and capacity utilisation.

A shorterm issue as flows reset and adjust.
		
Click to expand...

You had better not speak to my daughter about that, she is already experiencing serious delays from her suppliers since Brexit.
Orders that used to take three days now taking three weeks. She does not seem to be the only one.


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## Wolf (Aug 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just passing on what a senior government civil servant involved in Brexit emergency planning told a close relative.
He said the first major problem will be and paper tissue products.
Cant use torn up newspapers now as only the over 70's buy them.

Buying cheap EU fuel will close down our UK refineries.
Many cases of short dated medical products not produced in the UK.
My wife's relatives say they are already struggling to find fresh food products in some SE England supermarkets.

The Zoomers wanted a good ol blighty blitz spirit, looks like BJ is going to deliver that.
		
Click to expand...

Is any part of this comment actually true... ðŸ¤”

A senior government official ( civil servant) either has broken a lot of rules to give you this info therefore should be sacked or its being more than a little embilshed for the forum. 

Also these supermarkets in the SE are you sure theyre not the local cost cutter or nisa. I spend a hell of a lot of time there as I'm from there and family all still there and every supermarket I've been in recently has had no issues,  or have any family or friends had issue and you're aware that supermarket generally use the same suppliers throughout the country so it's likely if there's a shortage it's affected everyone or are we to assume anyone below the M25 can't get what they need though the many ports there but somehow they made their way north ðŸ¤”

I'm intrigued as to where in the SE these people are.. 

Yep something from the whole  post really doesn't make sense.


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## chrisd (Aug 21, 2019)

Well I live in the deep SE and not seen any problems getting any stuff from supermarkets locally


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Is any part of this comment actually true... ðŸ¤”

A senior government official ( civil servant) either has broken a lot of rules to give you this info therefore should be sacked or its being more than a little embilshed for the forum.

Also these supermarkets in the SE are you sure theyre not the local cost cutter or nisa. I spend a hell of a lot of time there as I'm from there and family all still there and every supermarket I've been in recently has had no issues,  or have any family or friends had issue and you're aware that supermarket generally use the same suppliers throughout the country so it's likely if there's a shortage it's affected everyone or are we to assume anyone below the M25 can't get what they need though the many ports there but somehow they made their way north ðŸ¤”

I'm intrigued as to where in the SE these people are..

Yep something from the whole  post really doesn't make sense.
		
Click to expand...

Many/most of those points that Doon posted are already in the public domain, so I don't believe there's been a breach of security involved! 

Supermarkets are not going to 'promote panic' by disclosing supply issues!

Both sides are exaggerating the (lack of) effect Brexit will have.

To me, the only REAL problem identified is the Refineries - who will potentially lose their (UK) businesses. But that's always been a possibility, just like much of Banking - and they've taken steps to mitigate the potential!


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 21, 2019)

There are major paper and tissue mfr in the UK, they are not all imported. Some of the raw materials will be imported, not all, but much of that will come from Scandinavia and come through the lighter used ports. The products involved, either finished or in raw material form, do not degrade so again, a couple of days at customs will have no impact.

The UK will not be running out of toilet paper. Everyone can relax ðŸ‘


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			...

The UK will not be running out of toilet paper. Everyone can relax ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...


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## pauljames87 (Aug 21, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There are major paper and tissue mfr in the UK, they are not all imported. Some of the raw materials will be imported, not all, but much of that will come from Scandinavia and come through the lighter used ports. The products involved, either finished or in raw material form, do not degrade so again, a couple of days at customs will have no impact.

The UK will not be running out of toilet paper. Everyone can relax ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Just get a bidet installed .. save the mess and worry


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## IainP (Aug 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You had better not speak to my daughter about that, she is already experiencing serious delays from her suppliers since Brexit.
Orders that used to take three days now taking three weeks. She does not seem to be the only one.
		
Click to expand...

As it hasn't happened yet (maybe never), is there not the slightest chance these may be general supply issues?


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## Fade and Die (Aug 21, 2019)

Donâ€™t worry Doon we in the sunny south will send up loo rolls with the next lorry load of cash we send North...


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## Dando (Aug 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Well I live in the deep SE and not seen any problems getting any stuff from supermarkets locally
		
Click to expand...

Thats good to hear as Iâ€™m off to the caravan the weekend (near Maidstone) and was worried Iâ€™d either starve or have to eat the dog


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## chrisd (Aug 21, 2019)

Dando said:



			Thats good to hear as Iâ€™m off to the caravan the weekend (near Maidstone) and was worried Iâ€™d either starve or have to eat the dog
		
Click to expand...

 If you dont eat then you'd not have to worry about the lack of toilet rolls ðŸ¤«


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## drdel (Aug 21, 2019)

Buy from USA's Costco!


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## Old Skier (Aug 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Just passing on what a senior government civil servant involved in Brexit emergency planning told a close relative.
He said the first major problem will be and paper tissue products.
Cant use torn up newspapers now as only the over 70's buy them.

Buying cheap EU fuel will close down our UK refineries.
Many cases of short dated medical products not produced in the UK.
My wife's relatives say they are already struggling to find fresh food products in some SE England supermarkets.

The Zoomers wanted a good ol blighty blitz spirit, looks like BJ is going to deliver that.
		
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Gone from a relative involved in Brexit emergency planning to a senior civil servant telling a relative - which is it, or is SILH barber involved again.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			With reduced insulin, which keeps getting reported as a likely shortage as it's produced in EU, me and over a million others in UK are going to get super thin then sick fairly quickly. That's reasonably catastrophic on a personal level.  It may be scaremongering (don't see why when these are generally civil service reports) and I think it's a resolvable issue but I really don't need this kind of daily reporting, *do NHS pay for the new tariffs on EU produced insulin? *Do I start trying to over-order it in case there's a shortage? I bet some people are trying that, there will be zero Blitz spirit for those short on daily medicines.

Diabetes UK are covering this issue as they should, would Brexiteers insist they are just scaremongering too?

The Yellowhammer info is not from some rabid Remainer on twitter, it's coming from HM Government and isn't out of date, albeit leaked or else we'd never get close to the facts from increasingly vague and hapless Govt cover up spokespeople like Gove and Cleverly. Johnson yesterday just seemed utterly out of his depth and looked exhausted....already -  "I'll give it some ooomph" was the best he had, really.   Chickens are coming home to roost for that man.
		
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The NHS would pay no tariffs on imported insulin unless the UK government wanted to set import tariffs on medication. Why would they want to do that.


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## robinthehood (Aug 21, 2019)

Backstop changes possible within 30 days. Let's hope so and put an end to this stagnation.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Just get a bidet installed .. save the mess and worry
		
Click to expand...

We're not having any of that French rubbish after Brexit.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			We're not having any of that French rubbish after Brexit. 

Click to expand...

Iâ€™m getting 2 Turkish toilets installed with my renovations 

Brexiters will have a heart attack


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 21, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			1. That comes across like the old British colonial attitude, kind of arrogant, just saying. Whatever suits us and to heck with Ireland.

2. How can it be 'no different', they are in the EU, we're soon not to be?

3. Didn't Eire invest in some super ferries recently so they could, if needed, try and bypass the UK in terms of trading goods to and from the continent? They were clearly looking at that scenario and they know they are going to be dragged into and negatively affected with BJs Brexit. They will do what they can to reduce the reliance on the UK for goods to and from Eire but that can only go so far.
4. People will dig their heels in though, it will all be dressed up in diplomacy but they are and will not be looking to give UK any favours in this self-harming identity crisis the UK is going through. What lovely neighbours we are, drag others down with us and no doubt then try and turn the blame on them.

Click to expand...

To reply to the points you raised....

1. That wasn't how it was meant. I was simply looking for a solution that might help Ireland as well as resolve the issue of a hard border in Ireland. They are going to be seriously screwed in the event of No Deal. We keep getting told of the long queues that will be forming at ports, with goods from Ireland going to the EU stuck in those queues as well as UK goods. According to this article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44657460) about 85% of Ireland's total EU freight goes via British ports. 60% of that is destined for the UK market with the other 40% destined for the EU. So that 40% would find itself stuck in any queues that had formed. I was thinking that if their goods could be checked at UK ports as they arrived and then be given free passage from there to Ireland it would help the flow of goods and avoid the need for checks within Ireland. 

2. Northern Ireland is (for now) in the UK. Why is putting a border between Ireland and the EU different to a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK? The NI/UK relationship is far longer established than the EU/Ireland one.

3. I didn't know about that but in the article I quoted above it mentions that they have two new freight ferries for trips between Dublin and Rotterdam. 

4. Which is why I can't understand why the Irish PM has been so bullish and confrontational. He must understand how badly Ireland will be affected by a no deal Brexit especially in areas such as farming where tariffs could be applied to Irish beef exports to the UK. It's not about giving favours to the UK it's about protecting his own country.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Iâ€™m getting 2 Turkish toilets installed with my renovations

Brexiters will have a heart attack
		
Click to expand...

Have you got Polish builders in to do the work? If so it's just as well you're getting it done now as they'll all be rounded up and deported on 1st November.


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## Hobbit (Aug 21, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			4. Which is why I can't understand why the Irish PM has been so bullish and confrontational. He must understand how badly Ireland will be affected by a no deal Brexit especially in areas such as farming where tariffs could be applied to Irish beef exports to the UK. It's not about giving favours to the UK it's about protecting his own country.
		
Click to expand...

The Irish PM has 26 other countries behind him as well as the Commissions top brass.


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## Jacko_G (Aug 21, 2019)

As I've said previously, Switzerland isn't in the EU, has 5 land borders, not one is a hard border. Why is it only an issue for us?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Is any part of this comment actually true... ðŸ¤”

A senior government official ( civil servant) either has broken a lot of rules to give you this info therefore should be sacked or its being more than a little embilshed for the forum.

Also these supermarkets in the SE are you sure theyre not the local cost cutter or nisa. I spend a hell of a lot of time there as I'm from there and family all still there and every supermarket I've been in recently has had no issues,  or have any family or friends had issue and you're aware that supermarket generally use the same suppliers throughout the country so it's likely if there's a shortage it's affected everyone or are we to assume anyone below the M25 can't get what they need though the many ports there but somehow they made their way north ðŸ¤”

I'm intrigued as to where in the SE these people are..

Yep something from the whole  post really doesn't make sense.
		
Click to expand...

Don't be so dramatic, I am not telling you anything you did not already read from Government sources via Yellowhammer.

Essex was where the unsolicited info came from, two separate sources. One bread shelves completely empty, two hardly any green vegs on shelves.
I have noticed in both Tesco and Asda in Ayrshire they seem to be having stocking problems with bread and veg. Lots of empty shelves. Never seen that before. They could be just shortening their product range which in itself is not a healthy sign.
Either that or they do not have any shelf stocking staff and there is a warehouse jam packed with stuff.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The Irish PM has 26 other countries behind him as well as the Commissions top brass.
		
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He does, but a no deal Brexit basically throws the Irish economy under a bus. The EU will be forced to bend/break some of their rules to support or rescue Irish businesses. And yet we get interviews from the top brass saying the rules are the rules and can't be changed. Except where it suits them.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			DfT, I fear your contact may have less knowledge of international logistics than he/she thinks.

There are more ports than Dover around the UK for bulk goods:  Felixstowe, Bristol
, Liverpool, Hull etc, etc. There are numerous air freighters for time sensitive items. You may not know but lots of Airfreight goes by truck, and lots truckloads by sea and air as logisticians balance routes and capacity utilisation.

A shorterm issue as flows reset and adjust.
		
Click to expand...

Living near Cairnryan I am well aware of the emergency planning for the ferries A77 stacking etc, it does not sound very encouraging to be honest. They cannot magic up extra ferries as this useless Tory government found out last year.
It is the time that it will take for document checking etc that worries folk, that is going to be a permanent reset.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Backstop changes possible within 30 days. Let's hope so and put an end to this stagnation.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...oid-no-deal-brexit/ar-AAG7RgT?ocid=spartandhp

I hope so, but if his government took three years to get to here then 30 days seems a big ask.
More BJ bluster I am afraid.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't be so dramatic, I am not telling you anything you did not already read from Government sources via Yellowhammer.

Essex was where the unsolicited info came from, two separate sources. One bread shelves completely empty, two hardly any green vegs on shelves.
I have noticed in both Tesco and Asda in Ayrshire they seem to be having stocking problems with bread and veg. Lots of empty shelves. Never seen that before. They could be just shortening their product range which in itself is not a healthy sign.
Either that or they do not have any shelf stocking staff and there is a warehouse jam packed with stuff.

Click to expand...

As we keep getting told by ardent Remainers every time there is any good news...."We haven't left yet". So why is it that empty shelves now are due to Brexit? We haven't left yet.

Yes, occasionally, there are some empty bread shelves in my local Tesco in Suffolk, but this is normally due to the fact that they have sold out of bread and are baking more to put on the shelves. Perhaps this is something that the politicians aren't telling us. After Brexit it will take longer to bake bread to replenish the shelves.


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## Leftie (Aug 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have noticed in both Tesco and Asda in Ayrshire they seem to be having stocking problems with bread and veg. Lots of empty shelves. Never seen that before. They could be just shortening their product range which in itself is not a healthy sign.
Either that or they do not have any shelf stocking staff and there is a warehouse jam packed with stuff.

Click to expand...

Hmmm   Might be that the "just in time" ordering person has got it wrong and needs to be replaced by someone who can get it right!.  My niece has, amongst other jobs at Waitrose, that duty and doesn't seem to have a problem with empty shelves.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't be so dramatic, I am not telling you anything you did not already read from Government sources via Yellowhammer.

Essex was where the unsolicited info came from, two separate sources. One bread shelves completely empty, two hardly any green vegs on shelves.
I have noticed in both Tesco and Asda in Ayrshire they seem to be having stocking problems with bread and veg. Lots of empty shelves. Never seen that before. They could be just shortening their product range which in itself is not a healthy sign.
Either that or they do not have any shelf stocking staff and there is a warehouse jam packed with stuff.

Click to expand...

Complete Balderdash and Twaddle of the first order.  Oh my what a Twazzock.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 22, 2019)

Striking that Merkel has pulled rug from under â¦@PhilipHammondUKâ©, the Gaukeward Squad and much of anti-no-deal posse by saying there is negotiation to be had in next 30 days on how to eliminate backstop. No wonder â¦@BorisJohnsonâ© looks happy .


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## Hobbit (Aug 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't be so dramatic, I am not telling you anything you did not already read from Government sources via Yellowhammer.

Essex was where the unsolicited info came from, two separate sources. One bread shelves completely empty, two hardly any green vegs on shelves.
I have noticed in both Tesco and Asda in Ayrshire they seem to be having stocking problems with bread and veg. Lots of empty shelves. Never seen that before. They could be just shortening their product range which in itself is not a healthy sign.
Either that or they do not have any shelf stocking staff and there is a warehouse jam packed with stuff.

Click to expand...

As bread and veg have a shelf life why would those shelves be completely empty now, 70 days away from Brexit? Why shorten stock lines with 70 days to go? Why would there be a warehouse jam on perishables?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			As bread and veg have a shelf life why would those shelves be completely empty now, 70 days away from Brexit? Why shorten stock lines with 70 days to go? Why would there be a warehouse jam on perishables?
		
Click to expand...

I know, seems very strange.


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## Jacko_G (Aug 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Don't be so dramatic, I am not telling you anything you did not already read from Government sources via Yellowhammer.

Essex was where the unsolicited info came from, two separate sources. One bread shelves completely empty, two hardly any green vegs on shelves.
I have noticed in both Tesco and Asda in Ayrshire they seem to be having stocking problems with bread and veg. Lots of empty shelves. Never seen that before. They could be just shortening their product range which in itself is not a healthy sign.
Either that or they do not have any shelf stocking staff and there is a warehouse jam packed with stuff.

Click to expand...

You'll need to get in earlier for the whoopsie priced deals mate.


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## Hobbit (Aug 22, 2019)

Today sees figures for foreign investment in tech companies at a record high.

It does make you wonder why company directors would look at long term investment into a failing country? What on earth are company boards doing approving investment into a country that will be locked into a restricted trading regime with diminished market access?

Yet another hysterical, dire prediction blown out of the water?


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## Dando (Aug 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Today sees figures for foreign investment in tech companies at a record high.

It does make you wonder why company directors would look at long term investment into a failing country? What on earth are company boards doing approving investment into a country that will be locked into a restricted trading regime with diminished market access?

Yet another hysterical, dire prediction blown out of the water?
		
Click to expand...

You should know by now that any good news has to have â€œdespite Brexitâ€ in it somewhere!


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## spongebob59 (Aug 22, 2019)

Think I'm going to give up watching BBC news, they really are project fear.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 22, 2019)

Last night in Berlin, Angela Merkel made surprisingly positive noises towards a surprisingly diplomatic Boris Johnson, that surprised even Number 10 in their warmth. _Despite this morning the PMâ€™s team playing down their significance, Merkel told a press conference yesterday that:_
_â€œI see possibilitiesâ€¦ It was said we will probably find a solution in two years, we can maybe find it in the next 30 days.â€_​Insiders are not expecting todayâ€™s _â€œworking lunchâ€_ with Emmanuel Macron to go anywhere like as smoothly, already briefing the meeting will be _â€œfrankâ€, _a diplomatic word for frosty. The French President told reporters last night  _â€œRenegotiation of the terms currently proposed by the British is not an option that exists, and that has always been made clear by President Tusk.â€ Good cop bad copâ€¦_
Former Brexit Secretary David Davis told the Today Programme this morning that he recognises the thirty day timetable as an important timeframe as the UK Government does not expect serious crunch discussion until the end of September, after it can be proved to the EU that Parliament cannot stop No Deal. _As long as Parliament doesnâ€™t stop Number 10 holding its strong line, the Government expects the EU to properly engage until Conference recess towards the end of next monthâ€¦_


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 22, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Think I'm going to give up watching BBC news, they really are project fear.
		
Click to expand...

Most of Scotland worked that out in 2014.
Despite the unionists feeble denials.


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## drdel (Aug 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Today sees figures for foreign investment in tech companies at a record high.

It does make you wonder why company directors would look at long term investment into a failing country? What on earth are company boards doing approving investment into a country that will be locked into a restricted trading regime with diminished market access?

Yet another hysterical, dire prediction blown out of the water?
		
Click to expand...

I think the exchange rate is helping acquire assets cheap and there might be a bit of gambling on the sterling rising post October


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## Old Skier (Aug 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Today sees figures for foreign investment in tech companies at a record high.

It does make you wonder why company directors would look at long term investment into a failing country? What on earth are company boards doing approving investment into a country that will be locked into a restricted trading regime with diminished market access?

Yet another hysterical, dire prediction blown out of the water?
		
Click to expand...

And a workforce that will have starved to death by Christmas.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 22, 2019)

'No deal will never be the choice of the EU, never' Michel Barnier comments on Brexit following a meeting between Boris Johnson and Emmanuel Macron https://itv.com/news/2019-08-22/boris-johnson-meets-emmanuel-macron-in-france/ 

Well your move then


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## Foxholer (Aug 22, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			...
Former Brexit Secretary David Davis told the Today Programme this morning that he recognises the thirty day timetable as an important timeframe as the UK Government does not expect serious crunch discussion until the end of September, after it can be proved to the EU that Parliament cannot stop No Deal. _As long as Parliament doesnâ€™t stop Number 10 holding its strong line, the Government expects the EU to properly engage until Conference recess towards the end of next monthâ€¦_

Click to expand...

Please, please...This must mean that we can suspend all speculation/propoganda in this thread until end of Septembe then!


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## drdel (Aug 22, 2019)

Even though Macron repeated the '30 day' Merkel assertion in meeting with the PM she has now said it was an allegory !

I suppose its nice to see a German politician making up stories when they feel like it - certainly gave the press something to latch onto. You'd have thought as German Chancellor involved in an international meeting of significance with a fellow head of state she would have been well aware of how such a statement would have been interpreted

Macron's reported to have described the 'backstop' in the proposed WDA turned down by Parliament 3 times as indispensable - problem is, of course, if there is no modified agreement it will be dispensed with by default!!


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## Hobbit (Aug 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			Even though Macron repeated the '30 day' Merkel assertion in meeting with the PM she has now said it was an allegory !

I suppose its nice to see a German politician making up stories when they feel like it - certainly gave the press something to latch onto. You'd have thought as German Chancellor involved in an international meeting of significance with a fellow head of state she would have been well aware of how such a statement would have been interpreted

Macron's reported to have described the 'backstop' in the proposed WDA turned down by Parliament 3 times as indispensable - problem is, of course, if there is no modified agreement it will be dispensed with by default!!
		
Click to expand...

Interesting to compare the Beeb's version of who said what to ITV's...


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## SocketRocket (Aug 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Most of Scotland worked that out in 2014.
Despite the unionists feeble denials. 

Click to expand...

Bit of news today that Englands prop up benefit to Scotland has gone up this year to Â£2000 for each adult and child.  Thats a rather large hole in the Scottish economy if they leave the UK.  Would our friends in the EU be prepared to fill it


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## spongebob59 (Aug 24, 2019)

Who are you anymore ??




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1165206170015059968


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## drdel (Aug 24, 2019)

Pm bounces comment back


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## Hobbit (Aug 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Who are you anymore ??




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1165206170015059968

Click to expand...

Im not sure what Tusk means by the "I will not cooperate on No Deal." Surely No Deal is when he doesn't cooperate. Seems a stupid comment to me. Maybe something lost in translation.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Im not sure what Tusk means by the "I will not cooperate on No Deal." Surely No Deal is when he doesn't cooperate. Seems a stupid comment to me. Maybe something lost in translation.
		
Click to expand...

I think he said it just after falling out his hammock.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			Pm bounces comment back
		
Click to expand...

Speaking to reporters on the plane to Biarritz, Boris Johnson hit back over Mr Tusk's comments, saying: "I have made it absolutely clear I don't want a no deal Brexit.
"But I say to our friends in the EU, if they don't want a no-deal Brexit then we have got to get rid of the backstop from the treaty.
"If Donald Tusk doesn't want to go down as 'Mr No Deal Brexit' then I hope that point will be borne in mind by him too."


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## drdel (Aug 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think he said it just after falling out his hammock.
		
Click to expand...

I'm still wondering which of the 7 countries Tusk has decided he represent.

I guess he doesn't trust the French, German and Italian elected heads of state.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 25, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Speaking to reporters on the plane to Biarritz, Boris Johnson hit back over Mr Tusk's comments, saying: "I have made it absolutely clear I don't want a no deal Brexit.
"But I say to our friends in the EU, if they don't want a no-deal Brexit then we have got to get rid of the backstop from the treaty.
"If Donald Tusk doesn't want to go down as 'Mr No Deal Brexit' then I hope that point will be borne in mind by him too."
		
Click to expand...

He is lying, the only way he can deliver Brexit is by blocking Parliament.
I believe the last person to do that was be-headed.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He is lying, the only way he can deliver Brexit is by blocking Parliament.
I believe the last person to do that was be-headed.
		
Click to expand...

He doesnt have to block anything


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## SocketRocket (Aug 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm still wondering which of the 7 countries Tusk has decided he represent.

I guess he doesn't trust the French, German and Italian elected heads of state.
		
Click to expand...

The United States of Euroland.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 25, 2019)

Is this Swinson in disguise ?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1165406325880360962


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## spongebob59 (Aug 25, 2019)

Eloquent words from Labour MP Jess Philips :


Jess Phillips Esq., M.P.

@jessphillips
Â·
13h

He said fuck business, I guess fuck democracy is what he says now. Fuck you is how this ends.


Jess Phillips Esq., M.P.

@jessphillips
Â·
13h

I'm absolutely fuming tonight. I will not let Boris Johnson act like a tinpot dictator without a fight. I'll personally follow him everywhere and keep reminding him of his lies and inadequacies. Every step he takes in parliament I'll ring a bell behind him and shout shame.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 25, 2019)

from the man who drops his trousers for every terrorist :


John McDonnell MP


Johnson stands there with Trump like an embarrassed 5th former on work placement. No other UK Prime Ministers would allow themselves to be patronised in this way or allow our country to be treated in such a humiliating manner. Stop selling us out to Trump.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			from the man who drops his trousers for every terrorist :


John McDonnell MP


Johnson stands there with Trump like an embarrassed 5th former on work placement. No other UK Prime Ministers would allow themselves to be patronised in this way or allow our country to be treated in such a humiliating manner. Stop selling us out to Trump.
		
Click to expand...

Well I think many folk would strongly agree with McDonnell's description of the BJ.
The last, shortest serving and most embarrassing Tory PM in history.
Trump's little Mini Me, and BJ is not even aware of it.


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## Hobbit (Aug 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well I think many folk would strongly agree with McDonnell's description of the BJ.
The last, shortest serving and most embarrassing Tory PM in history.
Trump's little Mini Me, and BJ is not even aware of it.

Click to expand...

I'm sure he's taller than the wee ginger Krankie Scottish County counsellor.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm sure he's taller than the wee ginger Krankie Scottish County counsellor.

Click to expand...

Jings that was really hilarious. [well you seemed to think so]

BJ telling porky pies aboot pork pies now.
Unless he counts a delivery to Iceland as an export.
The gift that keeps giving.


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## Parsaregood (Aug 26, 2019)

Thread is still alive and well in the remoaning front I see, has the realisation that we are leaving set in yet ? After all we have had 3 years of this, yous have now resorted to petty insults and name calling. I've come to expect nothing else of people who wish to defy democracy. ðŸ˜‚ Halloween shall go down in history this year


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## Hobbit (Aug 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jings that was really hilarious. [well you seemed to think so]

BJ telling porky pies aboot pork pies now.
Unless he counts a delivery to Iceland as an export.
The gift that keeps giving.
		
Click to expand...

Captain, Captain! I caught a big one.

And you putting a laugh smilie in yours and its ok but when I jest back.... aye right. 

You just keeping giving Doom.


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## Parsaregood (Aug 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Captain, Captain! I caught a big one.

And you putting a laugh smilie in yours and its ok but when I jest back.... aye right. 

You just keeping giving Doom.
		
Click to expand...

Doom N GLoom I believe is the name he often goes by


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## drdel (Aug 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jings that was really hilarious. [well you seemed to think so]

BJ telling porky pies aboot pork pies now.
Unless he counts a delivery to Iceland as an export.
The gift that keeps giving.
		
Click to expand...

If you go to Thialand you can buy pork pies from MM, if you go to the USA you can't.


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## Hobbit (Aug 26, 2019)

drdel said:



			If you go to Thialand you can buy pork pies from MM, if you go to the USA you can't.
		
Click to expand...

If I went would I be back in time for dinner?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2019)

drdel said:



			If you go to Thialand you can buy pork pies from MM, if you go to the USA you can't.
		
Click to expand...


Not according to this guy...â€¦â€¦......unless you call a tiny amount two years ago significant.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49470831


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## Foxholer (Aug 26, 2019)

drdel said:



*If you go to Thailand you can buy pork pies from MM*, if you go to the USA you can't.
		
Click to expand...

There's certainly doubt about that! Do you have proof? And that it's actually the product we know here - and not something altogether different! 

But you can get them AT Iceland, if maybe not IN Iceland!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There's certainly doubt about that! Do you have proof? And that it's actually the product we know here - and not something altogether different! 

But you can get them AT Iceland, if maybe not IN Iceland!
		
Click to expand...

I doubt drdel would admit to buying a two year old MM pie on holiday.


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## drdel (Aug 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There's certainly doubt about that! Do you have proof? And that it's actually the product we know here - and not something altogether different! 

But you can get them AT Iceland, if maybe not IN Iceland!
		
Click to expand...

Q1...Yes.
Q2... Don't recall.
Q3... Can't be bothered to find out.

This stuff is fluff. Of more interest is the declining state German bank, ECB fragility and the EU economy and why they UK needs to uncouple ASAP.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 26, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Is this Swinson in disguise ?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1165406325880360962

Click to expand...

The story on this idiot gets even better, at least it shows she is impartial

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ondemns-undemocratic-eu-shutting-anti-brexit/


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## Foxholer (Aug 26, 2019)

drdel said:



			...

This stuff is fluff. Of more interest is the declining state German bank, ECB fragility and the EU economy and why they UK needs to uncouple ASAP.
		
Click to expand...

Seems the main theme of these articles is the continuing story of Boris's twaddle!

You've been banging on about 'ECB fragility' and 'EU economic decline' for some years now. Yet the Euro has significantly improved against the pound in that time! That seems to suggest more knowledgeable folk than me (certainly) or you (possibly/probably) disagree (or don't care - yet) or that the UK economy is in a far worse state!

I agree that the German economy has issues currently and may be heading for technical recession. I don't believe that's an 'EU caused' problem - though the EU could well suffer because of it!

Btw which of the many 'state bank's are you talking about?


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## Hobbit (Aug 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There's certainly doubt about that! Do you have proof? And that it's actually the product we know here - and not something altogether different! 

But you can get them AT Iceland, if maybe not IN Iceland!
		
Click to expand...

A division of Iceland shops is Iceland International, which can be found in 40 countries around the world, including in the Far East.

I get my MM pork pies from the local Iceland International. I also get Greggs meat slices and sausage rolls. Yet a spokesman for Walker and sons, the main distributor for MM says that MM doesn't export at all. Well guess what, they do...


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## SocketRocket (Aug 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jings that was really hilarious. [well you seemed to think so]

BJ telling porky pies aboot pork pies now.
Unless he counts a delivery to Iceland as an export.
The gift that keeps giving.
		
Click to expand...

Pork pies. Bet you're wetting yourself in excitement ðŸš®


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## spongebob59 (Aug 26, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166056648118550528


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 26, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Thread is still alive and well in the remoaning front I see, has the realisation that we are leaving set in yet ? After all we have had 3 years of this, yous have now resorted to *petty insults and name calling. *I've come to expect nothing else of people who wish to defy democracy. ðŸ˜‚ Halloween shall go down in history this year
		
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Parsaregood said:



*Doom N GLoom *I believe is the name he often goes by
		
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What was that about petty name calling ? 

And the insults started from both sides even before the vote was even cast 

And are we actually leaving ? Was it not supposed to be 3 months ago ? 

I wouldnâ€™t rule out a delay just yet and then a deal that means we are pretty much still in ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Parsaregood (Aug 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What was that about petty name calling ? 

And the insults started from both sides even before the vote was even cast 

And are we actually leaving ? Was it not supposed to be 3 months ago ? 

I wouldnâ€™t rule out a delay just yet and then a deal that means we are pretty much still in ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Oh I didn't think it would be long before this point was made, seen we were in the business of pettiness I thought I'd join in ðŸ˜‚ we will leave dont worry, the government of unity cant even unify itself so I really dont think there is any question and the recent softening and seeming change to the EU's outlook on negotiating is further evidence they realise our leaving is now not in doubt


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A division of Iceland shops is Iceland International, which can be found in 40 countries around the world, including in the Far East.

I get my MM pork pies from the local Iceland International. I also get Greggs meat slices and sausage rolls. Yet a spokesman for Walker and sons, the main distributor for MM says that MM doesn't export at all. Well guess what, they do...
		
Click to expand...

He did not say that.
He just confirmed that they did not export to the two countries that BJ told the press.
Just like the EU kipper packaging story, the man just makes it up on the fly and some folk think it is his endearing feature.
Might be OK for a cockanee fly boy but for a PM, seriously.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 26, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166056648118550528

Click to expand...


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He did not say that.
He just confirmed that they did not export to the two countries that BJ told the press.
Just like the EU kipper packaging story, *the man just makes it up on the fly *and some folk think it is his endearing feature.
Might be OK for a cockanee fly boy but for a PM, seriously.
		
Click to expand...

With regards to the pork pie quote I'm not sure you can blame Boris for repeating info that he has been given by the Department for International Trade. Surely, if the information is wrong, the blame lies with whoever has provided him with that info. He can't possibly check every piece of info he is given and has to trust that those providing it are giving him correct info.


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## Foxholer (Aug 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A division of Iceland shops is Iceland International, which can be found in 40 countries around the world, including in the Far East.

I get my MM pork pies from the local Iceland International. I also get Greggs meat slices and sausage rolls. Yet a spokesman for Walker and sons, the main distributor for MM says that MM doesn't export at all. Well guess what, they do...
		
Click to expand...

Are they actually Walker & Sons ones?
More likely, it's probably Iceland (International) that has done the shipping! Sending goods to Spain - or elsewhere in the EU - iis currently pretty simple! I'd suggest your 'treats from home' are going to get sparcer and more expensive post (no-deal) from a couple of months! Whether that's also the case, currently, for the Far East, I haven't a clue.

But there was also a snippet in a W&S comment that was probably more relevant....Because of the nature of MMPPs it's not economically viable to export them US!

Oh, and just to 'throw another pie'!....Post Brexit, any man and his dog, in EU or elsewhere, would be able to make 'Melton Mowbray Pork Pies' and any old how, as the protection that currently exits would disappear. Same for the Cornish Pasty 'label' and many other UK labels, as it's through the EU that 'protection' exists! Just another of the many issues that need to be addressed for Brexit.


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## Hobbit (Aug 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Are they actually Walker & Sons ones?
More likely, it's probably Iceland (International) that has done the shipping! Sending goods to Spain - or elsewhere in the EU - iis currently pretty simple! I'd suggest your 'treats from home' are going to get sparcer and more expensive post (no-deal) from a couple of months! Whether that's also the case, currently, for the Far East, I haven't a clue.

But there was also a snippet in a W&S comment that was probably more relevant....Because of the nature of MMPPs it's not economically viable to export them US!

Oh, and just to 'throw another pie'!....Post Brexit, any man and his dog, in EU or elsewhere, would be able to make 'Melton Mowbray Pork Pies' and any old how, as the protection that currently exits would disappear. Same for the Cornish Pasty 'label' and many other UK labels, as it's through the EU that 'protection' exists! Just another of the many issues that need to be addressed for Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

TBH, with the Â£ falling as it has, the "treats from home" are more expensive anyway. As for the protection; do I really care where my pork pie and pasty is made? Surely the desire is to have a decent pie/pasty, irrespective of the name. And to flip your comment, UK manufacturers will be able to make EU goods that are currently protected.

As for what's currently in the cupboard, and where its from, pretty much everything is Spanish. Its cheaper and, in most cases, fresher/nicer. Didn't think I'd ever come away from Heinz tomato sauce or Nescafe Gold Blend.


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			..And to flip your comment, UK manufacturers will be able to make EU goods that are currently protected...
		
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If they do, they will be breaking *International* Law!


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## Hobbit (Aug 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			If they do, they will be breaking *International* Law!
		
Click to expand...

And the EU won't? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make if you're saying the Cornish pasty will lose protection, and the EU will lose protection of their goods. But then you're saying they'll have the protection of international law.... you've lost me.


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And the EU won't? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make if you're saying the Cornish pasty will lose protection, and the EU will lose protection of their goods. But then you're saying they'll have the protection of international law.... you've lost me.
		
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Do some research about the way that area works then! The EU won't lose protectiom of their goods - even in UK!

It's another, hopefully relatively simple, chunk of beauracracy the UK government has to 'recall' and administer as a separate state!


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## drdel (Aug 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Seems the main theme of these articles is the continuing story of Boris's twaddle!

You've been *banging on* about 'ECB fragility' and 'EU economic decline' for some years now. Yet the Euro has significantly improved against the pound in that time! That seems to suggest more knowledgeable folk than me (certainly) or you (possibly/probably) disagree (or don't care - yet) or that the UK economy is in a far worse state!

I agree that the German economy has issues currently and may be heading for technical recession. I don't believe that's an 'EU caused' problem - though the EU could well suffer because of it!

Btw which of the many 'state bank's are you talking about?
		
Click to expand...

My opinions (which is all they are) or 'banging on' are formed from reading numerous economic based articles in professional  journals and the press. Articles that focus on the long term issues rather than the last couple of years. I'm not about to produce a refereed and referenced article to keep you desire to critique happy or to try and change your mind. Right it all off as heresay if that's your wish.


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2019)

Captions please!


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## spongebob59 (Aug 27, 2019)

Singing - 'You've got to pick a pocket or two'


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## spongebob59 (Aug 27, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166319793265434626


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## Hobbit (Aug 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Do some research about the way that area works then! The EU won't lose protectiom of their goods - even in UK!

It's another, hopefully relatively simple, chunk of beauracracy the UK government has to 'recall' and administer as a separate state!
		
Click to expand...

Youâ€™re doing that exclamation mark thing again! Stop shouting!

And I did read up on international law on it before replying. Explain yourself!


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## robinthehood (Aug 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Youâ€™re doing that exclamation mark thing again! Stop shouting!

And I did read up on international law on it before replying. Explain yourself!
		
Click to expand...

THIS IS SHOUTING.
Exclamations and bold etc are just irritating ðŸ˜‰


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			...
And I did read up on international law on it before replying...
		
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Try harder/better then!


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## PieMan (Aug 27, 2019)

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/protect...res-no-brexit-deal#rules-for-a-no-deal-brexit


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Captions please!
	
	
		
		
	


	




Click to expand...

Then Corbyn asked us to trust him.


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## Hobbit (Aug 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Try harder/better then!
		
Click to expand...

Why don't you just go a 'uck off you ignorant turd!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2019)

PieMan said:



https://www.gov.uk/guidance/protect...res-no-brexit-deal#rules-for-a-no-deal-brexit

Click to expand...

The following extracted suggests that although UK GI products will be protected in the UK, they will not necessarily be protected in the EU.  If I understand the guidance correctly this means that anyone in the EU could produce a pasty and sell it in the EU as a Cornish Pasty.  

*Existing UK pr*_*oducts*_
_All existing UK products registered under EU GI schemes will get UK GI status and remain protected in the UK._

_*Protection of UK GIs in the EU*
In a no deal Brexit, itâ€™s possible that the EU may not continue to protect UK GI products. Youâ€™ll need to be prepared to apply to the European Commission to regain:_

_EU protection_
_the right to use the EU GI logo_
_Youâ€™ll need to show that your product is protected as a GI in the UK. The UK government will provide support and guidance for your application._


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			..you ignorant turd!
		
Click to expand...

Well, Pieman has helped out with you 'ignorance'!

Btw. A minor correction to my 'International Law' statement...'International protocols' is a better term. It's WTO obligations/dispute resolution protocols that would be triggered!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 27, 2019)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-after-no-deal-leaves-firms-baffled-0p2r55cbj

My daughter will be relieved to see clarification of yet another government mucking fuddle.
She flagged this up a few days ago and has been worried stiff since.


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The following extracted suggests that although UK GI products will be protected in the UK, they will not necessarily be protected in the EU.  If I understand the guidance correctly this means that anyone in the EU could produce a pasty and sell it in the EU as a Cornish Pasty. 

*Existing UK pr*_*oducts*_
_All existing UK products registered under EU GI schemes will get UK GI status and remain protected in the UK._

_*Protection of UK GIs in the EU*
In a no deal Brexit, itâ€™s possible that the EU may not continue to protect UK GI products. Youâ€™ll need to be prepared to apply to the European Commission to regain:_

_EU protection_
_the right to use the EU GI logo_
_Youâ€™ll need to show that your product is protected as a GI in the UK. The UK government will provide support and guidance for your application._

Click to expand...

Correct - but only if EU removes their protection.


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## PieMan (Aug 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The following extracted suggests that although UK GI products will be protected in the UK, they will not necessarily be protected in the EU.  If I understand the guidance correctly this means that anyone in the EU could produce a pasty and sell it in the EU as a Cornish Pasty. 

*Existing UK pr*_*oducts*_
_All existing UK products registered under EU GI schemes will get UK GI status and remain protected in the UK._

_*Protection of UK GIs in the EU*
In a no deal Brexit, itâ€™s possible that the EU may not continue to protect UK GI products. Youâ€™ll need to be prepared to apply to the European Commission to regain:_

_EU protection_
_the right to use the EU GI logo_
_Youâ€™ll need to show that your product is protected as a GI in the UK. The UK government will provide support and guidance for your application._

Click to expand...

As Foxholer stated, only if the EU removes their protection and then refuses to recognise the UK GIs. The key statement in the guidance are "it's possible that the EU may not........".

But what has been mentioned previously are the number of international laws and treaties that are relevant to GIs, especially in the WTO.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2019)

PieMan said:



			As Foxholer stated, only if the EU removes their protection and then refuses to recognise the UK GIs. The key statement in the guidance are "it's possible that the EU may not........".

But what has been mentioned previously are the number of *international laws and treaties that are relevant to GIs, especially in the WTO*.
		
Click to expand...

Does this mean that once we have left the EU with _No Deal_ and have our sovereignty back - and are back in full control of our laws and trade agreements - we will still have to obey WTO trading rules in respect of GIs - trading rules of which we will have no control as the UK will be just one of 164 member / contracted parties trading under the auspices of the WTO?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does this mean that once we have left the EU with _No Deal_ and have our sovereignty back - and are back in full control of our laws and trade agreements - we will still have to obey WTO trading rules in respect of GIs - trading rules of which we will have no control as the UK will be just one of 164 member / contracted parties trading under the auspices of the WTO?
		
Click to expand...

Whats the matter with you, why are you talking like a spoiled child again.
What's different about the way we would act in this respect than the way most of the world do.  Getting sovereignty back does not mean we will be a maverick state ignoring all world trading arrangements and you know it. ðŸ™„


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## PieMan (Aug 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does this mean that once we have left the EU with _No Deal_ and have our sovereignty back - and are back in full control of our laws and trade agreements - we will still have to obey WTO trading rules in respect of GIs - trading rules of which we will have no control as the UK will be just one of 164 member / contracted parties trading under the auspices of the WTO?
		
Click to expand...

In a nutshell every WTO member should be respecting agreed/listed GIs.

As you know, the main function of the WTO is to facilitate smooth trade between members and not hinder it in any way.

And we will have more of a say in the workings of the WTO as an independent member (and one of the biggest in terms of global trade) than we do at the moment where we are represented by the EU Commission. For example in the WTO negotiations I'm involved in, the UK position is more in line with the likes of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Iceland, Japan and South Korea (to name just a few) than the overall EU position.

In my opinion - from a number of conversations I've had in Geneva with non-EU WTO members - we'll have more influence as in independent member than as part of the EU delegation.


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## USER1999 (Aug 27, 2019)

PieMan said:



			In a nutshell every WTO member should be respecting agreed/listed GIs.

As you know, the main function of the WTO is to facilitate smooth trade between members and not hinder it in any way.

And we will have more of a say in the workings of the WTO as an independent member (and one of the biggest in terms of global trade) than we do at the moment where we are represented by the EU Commission. For example in the WTO negotiations I'm involved in, the UK position is more in line with the likes of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Iceland, Japan and South Korea (to name just a few) than the overall EU position.

In my opinion - from a number of conversations I've had in Geneva with non-EU WTO members - we'll have more influence as in independent member than as part of the EU delegation.
		
Click to expand...

There you go again, waffling on with experience, and real stuff. Where are the flipping unicorns, the cliff edges, the crashing out stuff? Stop being so boring.


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## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2019)

I get it now, The PM must respect Parliament however, Parliament doesn't have to respect the democratic result of the referendum.

The few warrent more respect than the many, seems fair. I'm sure the few will agree.


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## Dando (Aug 27, 2019)

PieMan said:



			In a nutshell every WTO member should be respecting agreed/listed GIs.

As you know, the main function of the WTO is to facilitate smooth trade between members and not hinder it in any way.

And we will have more of a say in the workings of the WTO as an independent member (and one of the biggest in terms of global trade) than we do at the moment where we are represented by the EU Commission. For example in the WTO negotiations I'm involved in, the UK position is more in line with the likes of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Iceland, Japan and South Korea (to name just a few) than the overall EU position.

In my opinion - from a number of conversations I've had in Geneva with non-EU WTO members - we'll have more influence as in independent member than as part of the EU delegation.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m sure SILH and the other doom mongers will be along soon to tell you that youâ€™re wrong as they heard something different that suits their agenda from some nutter on a radio station


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does this mean that once we have left the EU with _No Deal_ and have our sovereignty back - and are back in full control of our laws and trade agreements - we will still have to obey WTO trading rules in respect of GIs - trading rules of which we will have no control as the UK will be just one of 164 member / contracted parties trading under the auspices of the WTO?
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			Whats the matter with you, why are you talking like a spoiled child again.
What's different about the way we would act in this respect than the way most of the world do.  Getting sovereignty back does not mean we will be a maverick state ignoring all world trading arrangements and you know it. ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

Did I detect a touch of micky-take in SILH's post? And a classic 'normal service' abusive over-reaction from SR?


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## Fade and Die (Aug 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Do some research about the way that area works then
		
Click to expand...




Foxholer said:



			Try harder/better then!
		
Click to expand...




Foxholer said:



			Well, Pieman has helped out with you 'ignorance'!
		
Click to expand...

This is a change of Posting style from you Foxy, your normal MO is rather â€œsmuggerâ€... gleefully posting links to prove your point, only too keen to highlight your â€œsuperiorâ€ knowledge. Whyâ€™s that? What has Hobbitses done to upset you?

I prefer your old â€œpedantâ€ style rather than your new â€œkellfireâ€ style btw.ðŸ˜œ


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I get it now...
		
Click to expand...

More like....
The un-democratically elected PM must respect the democratically elected House of Commons, which, according to the UK constitution, has the final say on how (and, indeed, whether) the result of the referendum is implemented.

That's how the UK version of 'democracy' works!

Btw. The appointed House of Lords is involved too, but has no real power over The Commons.


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			This is a change of Posting style from you Foxy, your normal MO is rather â€œsmuggerâ€... gleefully posting links to prove your point, only too keen to highlight your â€œsuperiorâ€ knowledge. Whyâ€™s that? What has Hobbitses done to upset you?

I prefer your old â€œpedantâ€ style rather than your new â€œkellfireâ€ style btw.ðŸ˜œ
		
Click to expand...

GaF-Ind='No'!!


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## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			More like....
The un-democratically elected PM must respect the democratically elected House of Commons, which, according to the UK constitution, has the final say on how (and, indeed, whether) the result of the referendum is implemented.

That's how the UK version of 'democracy' works!

Btw. The appointed House of Lords is involved too, but has no real power over The Commons.
		
Click to expand...

Funny world, you try and use your not so superior knowledge when you explain how the unelected members of the EU are elected and forget how the PM of the Tory Party is elected.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			GaF-Ind='No'!!
		
Click to expand...

Have you changed your meds?


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Have you changed your meds?
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps this might help.....

Need-Meds-Ind='No'!


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## Foxholer (Aug 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Funny world, you try and use your not so superior knowledge when you explain how the unelected members of the EU are elected and forget how the PM of the Tory Party is elected.
		
Click to expand...

That statement has so many issues/ways to be interpreted, it makes no sense!


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## Old Skier (Aug 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That statement has so many issues/ways to be interpreted, it makes no sense!
		
Click to expand...

You left out - to me


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 27, 2019)

Nice to see that comrade Corbyn & Co have got together to see what they can do to stop a No Deal Brexit.  

Perhaps if they'd engaged in the process rather than tried to frustrate and undermine it then they wouldn't find themselves looking at a No Deal Brexit.  Their duplicity is scandalous.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Did I detect a touch of micky-take in SILH's post? And a classic 'normal service' abusive over-reaction from SR? 

Click to expand...

Mickey-take ðŸ˜œðŸ˜œðŸ˜œ  is that Foxy code for 'sarcastic twaddle'
Pull your head out man, its dark up there.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Nice to see that comrade Corbyn & Co have got together to see what they can do to stop a No Deal Brexit. 

Perhaps if they'd engaged in the process rather than tried to frustrate and undermine it then they wouldn't find themselves looking at a No Deal Brexit.  Their duplicity is scandalous.
		
Click to expand...

They would be more convincing if they would be prepared to support a deal but they wont support any deal.  Their only policy is to destroy Brexit, other than Corbyn who would do or say anything to get the keys to No10


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			They would be more convincing if they would be prepared to support a deal but they wont support any deal.  Their only policy is to destroy Brexit, other than Corbyn who would do or say anything to get the keys to No10
		
Click to expand...

But to be fair to the Lib Dems and SNP they have been consistent with their stance throughout. They aren't interested in stopping a No Deal Brexit, they are only interested in stopping Brexit. But that is their right and they have been clear on their position from the very beginning. You might not agree with them but in a democracy they have every right to take that position. At least with them, unlike with Labour, you are totally clear with what they want and what their position is.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Whats the matter with you, why are you talking like a spoiled child again.
What's different about the way we would act in this respect than the way most of the world do.  Getting sovereignty back does not mean we will be a maverick state ignoring all world trading arrangements and you know it. ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

Ah right- here it is - this is how the uk will be in control of its trade deals agreed when they are agreed under the auspices of the WTO

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/org3_e.htm


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## SocketRocket (Aug 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			But to be fair to the Lib Dems and SNP they have been consistent with their stance throughout. They aren't interested in stopping a No Deal Brexit, they are only interested in stopping Brexit. But that is their right and they have been clear on their position from the very beginning. You might not agree with them but in a democracy they have every right to take that position. At least with them, unlike with Labour, you are totally clear with what they want and what their position is.
		
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How can they be a Democratic party, they can't pick and choose when democracy is ok and when not.  If they had these principles then why didnt they stand by them during the referendum, Libdems weren't saying they would try and stop Brexit if Leave won.  What they are doing is a disgrace just like the rest of their pathetic allies.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah right- here it is - this is how the uk will be in control of its trade deals agreed when they are agreed under the auspices of the WTO

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/org3_e.htm

Click to expand...

What are you on about now. If the UK strikes a free trade deal it will be no different than the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, canada etc striking a deal.  We wont be tied to freedom movement, EU Tarrifs, paying to be in a club, ECJ and so on.


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## PieMan (Aug 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What are you on about now. If the UK strikes a free trade deal it will be no different than the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, canada etc striking a deal.  We wont be tied to freedom movement, EU Tarrifs, paying to be in a club, ECJ and so on.
		
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The UK does pay a contribution to the WTO as a member; and will also make contributions every now and again to funds enabling Ministers and officials/experts from least developed nations (especially those poorer South Pacific and African members that we have historical ties with) to attend important WTO meetings and conferences.

Like any organisation there's also an Appellate Body in the WTO where members can take disputes if these cannot be resolved bilaterally.

But ultimately any free trade agreements negotiated between WTO members will be within the WTO guidelines - how comprehensive these agreements are though and what products or services they actually cover will be up to the members.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2019)

Oh Gawdâ€¦...we are going to get Lords of the Brexit now.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Nice to see that comrade Corbyn & Co have got together to see what they can do to stop a No Deal Brexit. 

Perhaps if they'd engaged in the process rather than tried to frustrate and undermine it then they wouldn't find themselves looking at a No Deal Brexit.  Their duplicity is scandalous.
		
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You could say the same about BJ.
He voted against a deal twice.


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## PieMan (Aug 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah right- here it is - this is how the uk will be in control of its trade deals agreed when they are agreed under the auspices of the WTO

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/org3_e.htm

Click to expand...

The UK is already a member of the WTO and therefore does not have to go through the application or accession process.

As a member we already adhere to the WTO rules.

So after 31st October, when I attend my November cluster of meetings in Geneva, I will not be sat with EU member states, I'll probably be sat next to the US!


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## PieMan (Aug 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh Gawdâ€¦...we are going to get Lords of the Brexit now.

Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

Go on, post the latest from Wings to give us some light relief from all the boring stuff that I've posted!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2019)

PieMan said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

Go on, post the latest from Wings to give us some light relief from all the boring stuff that I've posted!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Lady Making Your Mind Up of Bucks Fizz certainly has a good ring to it.
Her correspondence address is 'the land of make believe'.


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## ger147 (Aug 28, 2019)

Boris announces a Queen's speech for mid October so planning on suspending parliament very soon.

This is gonna be a fun 2 weeks.


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2019)

A kick in the teeth for 'democracy'?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632 

Or the only way BJ can avoid all sorts of calls to delay Brexit Deal deadline?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			A kick in the teeth for 'democracy'?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632

Or the only way BJ can avoid all sorts of calls to delay Brexit Deal deadline?
		
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As you keep reminding us its all part of the way our constitution works, they are using the system just like the groovy gang are.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

'Once again while the Remainers spent a lot of time talking to each other, not ruling anything out, keeping options on the table, forming groupings, having meetings, plotting plans and planning plots, theyâ€™ve been totally wrong-footed by more decisive opponents Yesterday it was the Remain Alliance trying to twist the constitution to achieve their ends. Today itâ€™s the Brexit government. Meanwhile the public will remain baffled While everyone gets giddy at this unprecedented constitutional move: we need a Queenâ€™s Speech (itâ€™s been more than 2years). Under Labour almost all non-election QSs were in the autumn. All were preceded by a prorogation. Motivation is a different matter, but this is what we do The prorogation being proposed by the government is about a week longer than the planned 3-week party conference recess. It is sneaky. It is conniving. It is exploiting executive strength. It has caught opponents off-guard. It reveals a ruthless streak in this No10 that itâ€™s predecessor lacked. But an illegal constitutional outrage it is not And the people calling this a constitutional outrage wanted to make Ken Clarke prime minister 'a fortnight ago


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

Peston....

This battle between government and MPs, over how and whether we Brexit, is now massively, bloodily raging. A number 10 source told me: â€œIf MPs pass a no confidence vote next week, then we'll stay in No10, we won't recommend any alternative government,... â€œwe'll dissolve Parliament and have an election between 1-5 November -- and that means no time for legislationâ€. Flippinâ€™ â€˜eck.


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			As you keep reminding us its all part of the way our constitution works, they are using the system just like the groovy gang are.
		
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Indeed! Though my statement has normally been 'That's the way our version of Democracy works!'.


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			...It is sneaky. It is conniving. It is exploiting executive strength. It has caught opponents off-guard. It reveals a ruthless streak in this No10 that itâ€™s predecessor lacked. But an illegal constitutional outrage it is not And the people calling this a constitutional outrage wanted to make Ken Clarke prime minister 'a fortnight ago
		
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While not 'an illegal constitutional outrage', I have sympathy for those describing it as 'a constitutional outrage'. Still, this action was foreseen and nothing was (able to be?) done to prevent it, so....

However, it will likely unify anti No-Deal MPs who could well invoke a motion of No Confidence. given the government's miniscule majority, it's quite possib;e that that motion could succeed! Ken Clarke & Harriet Harman might well become joint PMs!

Big gamble on BoJo's part, but I suspect there's been plenty of 'analysis' done about possible moves and this was deemed *his* best path.


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## Mudball (Aug 28, 2019)

So the mother of democracy and parliaments now making a mockery of it

1) hold a democratic vote based on half lies from both sides

2) Winning govt wants to uphold democracy by suspending parliament 

3) Losing side wants to uphold democracy by aligning against govt to defeat the democratic mandate


All this while the economy trundles along..

You could not make this up.. this must be in Libya or Liberia or somewhere like that (apologies to both those countries) .. at what point do we send the Army in?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2019)

An absolute disgrace.  What on earth has the country come to when this is deemed by some to be acceptable.  The Mother of Parliaments?  Shameful behaviour by a group of utterly shameless individuals egged on by Damien 'Wormtongue' Cummings


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

Bercow weighs in - 'this move represents a constitutional outrage. However it is dressed up it is blindingly obvious that the purpose of prorogation now would be to stop Parliament debating Brexit and performing its duty'


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

The parliamentary battle of our age, and of many ages  - over how and whether the UK Brexits - begins, with the signal from Downing Street that the Commons will rise some time between 10 and 13 September and will return for a Queen's Speech on 14 October. This will leave MPs...command structure whereas the opposition is disjointed and disunited. It is striking how effectively Johnson and Cummings have prepared the ground. As I mentioned they are confident they have gone through all the important constitutional niceties in preparing to suspend... parliament for a month, prior to laying out their legislative priorities in a Queen's Speech, and they don't believe MPs or the courts will be able to stop or block them.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

No.10 source on the legality of suspending parliament for a month: â€œlawyers are absolutely confident the courts cannot interfere with a bog standard Queenâ€™s Speech process. No10 has been extremely careful to do everything by the book in the normal way... â€œand thereâ€™s no precedent for the courts having any locus on thisâ€.  Government lawyers believe they are providing no hook for a judicial review, since they are not trying to escape the provisions of the recent Northern Ireland legislation [which forced government... to update MPs on progress to recall the NI executive]. â€œThis process [of proroguing or suspending parliament prior to Queenâ€™s Speech] is ancient, so there is no scope for legislation [to stop it] or judicial reviewâ€ said source


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2019)

And those who proclaim leave should actually try listening now to some of the utter and ignorant tripe being spouted by Leave voters on LBC.  Just try listening dear Leave voters on here and hear what some of your fellow Leave voters think.  Absolutely stinks.  Desperate.  Just listen - because they - dear Leave voter - are your bedfellows.

And they believe in Johnson - the duplicitous, deceitful LIAR.

I will now see if I can calm down ...


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

.
@BorisJohnson
 is saying to Tory MPs and Brexity Labour MPs that there is one shot, just one, to get a negotiated exit, at EU summit on 17-18 October, and that if they block no-deal Brexit in early September that door to a negotiated exit will be nailed shut. Will enough... be persuaded by him? The stakes could not be higher, for all of us


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2019)

Every 'better together' voter in Scotland must now be wondering what happened to the Vow promises in 2014.
Milliband, Clegg, Cameron, big Broon where are they now.
Nicola must be delighted with BJ's latest wheeze.


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## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2019)

The false outrage from MPs over Boris's is just that, false. If they had upheld the result of the referendum and worked on a constructive solution to leaving this wouldn't have happened. Those screaming loudest are the remainers, strange that.

It appears that remainers only approve of their form of democracy not actual democracy.

BBC resorting to getting foreign experts to tell us all why this is bad.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2019)

As JO'B - I must seek positives out of this.  Because it feels miserable and depressing.  Yes - Major did similar over Maastricht - but that does not help.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The false outrage from MPs over Boris's is just that, false. If they had upheld the result of the referendum and worked on a constructive solution to leaving this wouldn't have happened. Those screaming loudest are the remainers, strange that.

It appears that remainers only approve of their form of democracy not actual democracy.

BBC resorting to getting foreign experts to tell us all why this is bad.
		
Click to expand...

And is Sky - or are you not watching Sky News - just watch BBC so you can criticise their coverage.  But don't worry.  The BBC being the BBC they will give the government and Leave side time to put their side of the argument - so just hang on and you'll hear what you want to hear.


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## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And is Sky - or are you not watching Sky News - just watch BBC so you can criticise their coverage.  But don't worry.  The BBC being the BBC they will give the government and Leave side time to put their side of the argument - so just hang on and you'll hear what you want to hear.
		
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Coming from you I find this amongst your more hypercritical posts' crack on.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 28, 2019)

I have read that this will only impact on 4 days of parliament sitting as they are away for so long for holidays, party conference season etc during this period anyway. I don't know if this is true or not. If MP's are that worried, why have the party conferences this year, cancel them.


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## PieMan (Aug 28, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I have read that this will only impact on 4 days of parliament sitting as they are away for so long for holidays, party conference season etc during this period anyway. I don't know if this is true or not. If MP's are that worried, why have the party conferences this year, cancel them.
		
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Oh you cannot cancel the conference season - gives MPs even more days away from Parliament enjoying themselves!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚

Anyway this will all be forgotten next week when the Ashes resume.......!! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 28, 2019)

Coming from a job where, were we confronted with an issue of this magnitude leave would have been cancelled, I find it amazing that MPs are still on holiday.  They should be in now sorting out the issue that they should have already sorted out, not posturing and point scoring. 

If Brexit has shown nothing else it is how unfit for purpose this shower and the electoral process are.


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## drdel (Aug 28, 2019)

False outrage by those who want to replace the PM to stop a democratic vote passed into law by the HoC by a temporary PM. Their aim is to stop the democratic process and Brexit. 

They would cause more time to be lost than the suspension.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And those who proclaim leave should actually try listening now to some of the utter and ignorant tripe being spouted by Leave voters on LBC.  Just try listening dear Leave voters on here and hear what some of your fellow Leave voters think.  Absolutely stinks.  Desperate.  Just listen - because they - dear Leave voter - are your bedfellows.

And they believe in Johnson - the duplicitous, deceitful LIAR.

I will now see if I can calm down ... 

Click to expand...

And yet again you tar all 17 million leavers with the same brush based a few extreme examples on a radio show.  

Are we to judge all Remain voters on the basis of your continued snide digs and unsubstantiated rants? 

You really do bring absolutely nothing of value to this debate.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You could say the same about BJ.
He voted against a deal twice.
		
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He voted twice against what anyone with an IQ in double figures realised was the worst deal we could have possibly got. 

You possibly bring less to this debate than SILH and that takes some doing.


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			False outrage by those who want to replace the PM to stop a democratic vote passed into law by the HoC by a temporary PM. Their aim is to stop the democratic process and Brexit.

They would cause more time to be lost than the suspension.
		
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What's false about their outrage? I certainly believe it's genuine!

But so what! They've seemingly been out-manouvered!


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## JamesR (Aug 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Coming from a job where, were we confronted with an issue of this magnitude leave would have been cancelled, I find it amazing that MPs are still on holiday.  They should be in now sorting out the issue that they should have already sorted out, not posturing and point scoring.

If Brexit has shown nothing else it is how unfit for purpose this shower and the electoral process are.
		
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That's been one of my overriding worries about the whole brexit debate, right from the very beginning. Taking control back from the EU and giving it to the UK parliament - they ain't up to the task (either side of the house/debate)


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Coming from you I find this amongst your more *hypercritical* posts' crack on.
		
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Not meaning to be hypercritical....but do you mean 'hypocritical'?


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## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Not meaning to be hypercritical....but do you mean 'hypocritical'?
		
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Who knows, could be.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Not meaning to be hypercritical....but do you mean 'hypocritical'?
		
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Heâ€™s back! Attaboy.ðŸ‘

FYI I think hypercritical would also make sense ðŸ˜


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Heâ€™s back! Attaboy.ðŸ‘

FYI I think hypercritical would also make sense ðŸ˜
		
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I perfer Typocritical


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## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I perfer Typocritical
		
Click to expand...

I'm blocked, how do you know.


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## drdel (Aug 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			What's false about their outrage? I certainly believe it's genuine!

But so what! They've seemingly been out-manouvered!
		
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Not sure  how genuine about decision or being usurped E.g Bercow, Corbyn ( wanted to leave but now being PM is more attractive)


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			...

FYI I think hypercritical would also make sense ðŸ˜
		
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That's why I asked!


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Not sure  how genuine about decision or being usurped E.g Bercow, Corbyn ( wanted to leave but now being PM is more attractive)
		
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I can understand Corbyn feigning outrage - as you described - but Bercow's twitter(?) comment was pretty appropriate imo. Still legit, so.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			He voted twice against what anyone with an IQ in double figures realised was the worst deal we could have possibly got.

You possibly bring less to this debate than SILH and that takes some doing.
		
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There is a reasonable probability that your 'worst deal' will eventually be the one that gets signed off.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While not 'an illegal constitutional outrage', I have sympathy for those describing it as 'a constitutional outrage'. Still, this action was foreseen and nothing was (able to be?) done to prevent it, so....

However, it will likely unify anti No-Deal MPs who could well invoke a motion of No Confidence. given the government's miniscule majority, it's quite possib;e that that motion could succeed! Ken Clarke & Harriet Harman might well become joint PMs!

Big gamble on BoJo's part, but I suspect there's been plenty of 'analysis' done about possible moves and this was deemed *his* best path.
		
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#11,438 gives the Government's reply to that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2019)

Upside is that leaving with No Deal should knacker Farage and his revolting mob.  And I console myself with that thought.  Still think it's a disgrace this circumventing of parliament just because the government doesn't fancy having to justify No Deal in any detail.  And how does this proroguing fit with Johnson returning to the EU with a new idea to replace the Backstop - then taking it back to parliament if it is backed by the EU.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

@realDonaldTrump
 Â· 9m
Would be very hard for Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of Britainâ€™s Labour Party, to seek a no-confidence vote against New Prime Minister Boris Johnson, especially in light of the fact that Boris is exactly what the U.K. has been looking for, & will prove to be â€œa great one!â€ Love U.K.


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## woody69 (Aug 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			He voted twice against what anyone with an IQ in double figures realised was the worst deal we could have possibly got.

You possibly bring less to this debate than SILH and that takes some doing.
		
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It wasn't a deal. It was the withdrawal agreement to give us the time to actually discuss a deal and it was pretty much the best we could hope for based on the Government red lines.


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## Pathetic Shark (Aug 28, 2019)

Just loving how Corbyn is describing the move to suspend Parliament as "an affront to democracy".   So ignoring a democratic vote by the people of this country is OK then?


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 28, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Just loving how Corbyn is describing the move to suspend Parliament as "an affront to democracy".   So ignoring a democratic vote by the people of this country is OK then?
		
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I think Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson is the worst culprit. She's suggested this move is "undemocratic". This being the woman that has openly campaigned for a 2nd referendum but has said she won't accept the result if Leave wins again. 

I think many of those howling their outrage need to start being more honest about their intentions. They don't want to stop a no deal Brexit, they simply want to stop Brexit. The EU have said the WA can't be changed. Our MPs have voted against that agreement 3 times. That either leaves no deal or no Brexit and it's the latter that many of these people want. They've had 3 years to try to sort it out. How is losing 4 days going to make a difference? 

Claims that this is "unprecedented" are also untrue. The shutdown happens before every new session of parliament so it is very much following precedent.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)




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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Just loving how Corbyn is describing the move to suspend Parliament as "an affront to democracy".   So ignoring a democratic vote by the people of this country is OK then?
		
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Leave voters voted leave with an understanding (minimal or deep - it does not much matter which) of the manifesto set out by the Leave campaign in the lead up to the vote.  The leave campaign stated that a great deal would be easily forthcoming.  There was nothing at the front of the leave campaign that set out the No Deal option.  Every lead proponent of Leave told us the sort of great deal we would be able to strike.

When we vote in a GE all that is on the voting slip are the names of the candidates and their party.  When the government elected by that GE is in place where do we find it's mandate?  How do we measure how the government is doing?  The mandate that that voting paper gives is the mandate to govern and no more.  We then measure the government we vote in against it's manifesto - against what it said in the lead up to the election.  It's manifesto *defines *it's mandate fro the electorate.

The government mandate on leaving the EU does not extend to leaving with No Deal as that was not what the Leave campaign said it would deliver - it was not on the leave manifesto nor did they promote it.   The government has no mandate from the referendum for the UK leaving without a deal.


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## Kellfire (Aug 28, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Just loving how Corbyn is describing the move to suspend Parliament as "an affront to democracy".   So ignoring a democratic vote by the people of this country is OK then?
		
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A democratic vote that wasnâ€™t binding. 

Whereas parliament are there to run the country and actually make decisions for us...


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## robinthehood (Aug 28, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Just loving how Corbyn is describing the move to suspend Parliament as "an affront to democracy".   So ignoring a democratic vote by the people of this country is OK then?
		
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It's not being ignored,  article 50 has been triggered and we are leaving.. just taking a while ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## woody69 (Aug 28, 2019)

Personally I think this is all strategy by Boris to get a general election called. He wants the Queen's speech to be used as a proxy for a vote of no confidence. because in his Queen's speech he will be promising money for the police, NHS, infrastructure and science (he's helpfully put that in his letter). He then wants the opposition and Tory rebels to vote against those things, bringing down his Government and going to the polls, he then has not just Brexit to go against Parliament but also can beat down the opposition for not supporting the NHS, police etc.

No Deal will be stopped, BJ has been bluffing all the way through and he's still bluffing (he has to, to get the BxP votes back). He still also pretends there will be an EU cave in and a deal to keep the deal Leavers onside. He wants/needs a majority and he needs enemies to campaign against. Give him a majority and he'll dump the DUP quicker than his ex-wife just diagnosed with cancer, then they'll be a border in the Irish sea and he gets Brexit without the backstop, job done! He'll also get a small economic boost because it's not No Deal.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

Jo Swinson, an MP, has said she has written to the Queen to educate her on what â€œParliament wantsâ€. The Queen was on the throne 28 years before Swinson was born. Also, Corbyn has threatened to see the Queen. Has the man no mercy?

Jo Swinton really is taking herself and  her rag bag party of dissembling misfits far too seriously. Now she feels up to giving the Queen constitutional advice. This from a woman who stated that she will ignore any votes by the electorate to leave the E.U. Priceless!


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## JamesR (Aug 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			...That either leaves no deal or no Brexit ...
		
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I thought Boris was going to go over the Europe and bring back a shiny new deal. So surely you can add Brexit with an agreement of some sort.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Jo Swinson, an MP, has said she has written to the Queen to educate her on what â€œParliament wantsâ€. The Queen was on the throne 28 years before Swinson was born. Also, Corbyn has threatened to see the Queen. Has the man no mercy?

Jo Swinton really is taking herself and  her rag bag party of dissembling misfits far too seriously. Now she feels up to giving the Queen constitutional advice. This from a woman who stated that she will ignore any votes by the electorate to leave the E.U. Priceless!
		
Click to expand...

The Lib Demâ€™s canâ€™t be trusted!
Remember the tuition fees promise.
They will only ever be in a coalition government and blame the other party.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

Any news on Sourby


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

@Peston
Â·
27m

Why MPs have only themselves to blame for how 
@BorisJohnson
 is marginalising them. It is they who allowed him to become â€œpresidentâ€ Johnson

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-08-28...n-is-marginalising-them-writes-robert-peston/


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## Old Skier (Aug 28, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Personally I think this is all strategy by Boris to get a general election called. He wants the Queen's speech to be used as a proxy for a vote of no confidence. because in his Queen's speech he will be promising money for the police, NHS, infrastructure and science (he's helpfully put that in his letter). He then wants the opposition and Tory rebels to vote against those things, bringing down his Government and going to the polls, he then has not just Brexit to go against Parliament but also can beat down the opposition for not supporting the NHS, police etc.

No Deal will be stopped, BJ has been bluffing all the way through and he's still bluffing (he has to, to get the BxP votes back). He still also pretends there will be an EU cave in and a deal to keep the deal Leavers onside. He wants/needs a majority and he needs enemies to campaign against. Give him a majority and he'll dump the DUP quicker than his ex-wife just diagnosed with cancer, then they'll be a border in the Irish sea and he gets Brexit without the backstop, job done! He'll also get a small economic boost because it's not No Deal.
		
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Our MPs are not going to be falling over themselves to have a GE IMO. It would mean many of them losing their well paid jobs, there will be a blood fest in the Labour Party with many being ousted by Momentum, LibDems may gain the odd seat but according to DfT will lose their leader and unless the Torys sign up with the Farage mob we could see some of the old favorites being binned.


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## Hobbit (Aug 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Upside is that leaving with No Deal should knacker Farage and his revolting mob.  And I console myself with that thought.  Still think it's a disgrace this circumventing of parliament just because the government doesn't fancy having to justify No Deal in any detail.  And how does this proroguing fit with Johnson returning to the EU with a new idea to replace the Backstop - then taking it back to parliament if it is backed by the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Its a small crumb of comfort Hugh. But suspending Parliament?!? 

If a party hasn't got enough votes to carry out its manifesto it should call a GE, irrespective of whatever the issue is. Let the people support the party they think is best suited to move the UK forward, and if it is the Tories, with a Leave manifesto so be it.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 28, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I thought Boris was going to go over the Europe and bring back a shiny new deal. So surely you can add Brexit with an agreement of some sort.
		
Click to expand...

The mistake you've made there is listening to Boris. The EU have said no changes to the agreement and our MPs won't accept the agreement. And why should the EU negotiate when many of our own MPs are doing such sterling work in preventing Brexit.


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## woody69 (Aug 28, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Our MPs are not going to be falling over themselves to have a GE IMO. It would mean many of them losing their well paid jobs, there will be a blood fest in the Labour Party with many being ousted by Momentum, LibDems may gain the odd seat but according to DfT will lose their leader and unless the Torys sign up with the Farage mob we could see some of the old favorites being binned.
		
Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166718666362236928


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson is the worst culprit. She's suggested this move is "undemocratic". This being the woman that has openly campaigned for a 2nd referendum but has said she won't accept the result if Leave wins again.

I think many of those howling their outrage need to start being more honest about their intentions. They don't want to stop a no deal Brexit, they simply want to stop Brexit. The EU have said the WA can't be changed. Our MPs have voted against that agreement 3 times. That either leaves no deal or no Brexit and it's the latter that many of these people want. They've had 3 years to try to sort it out. How is losing 4 days going to make a difference?

Claims that this is "unprecedented" are also untrue. The shutdown happens before every new session of parliament so it is very much following precedent.
		
Click to expand...

Jo Swinson she is a bit fast and loose with her 2nd referendum deals.
Fine for Westminster but not for Holyrood


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 28, 2019)

woody69 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166718666362236928

Click to expand...

I didn't think that the UK has a constitution so does that mean it's not possible for something to be "unconstitutional".


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## woody69 (Aug 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I didn't think that the UK has a constitution so does that mean it's not possible for something to be "unconstitutional".
		
Click to expand...

It has an "unwritten constitution", but the point of that post was showing that other people think the same as me, i.e. Boris is pushing for a VONC so he can go to the polls


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## woofers (Aug 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Let the people support the party they think is best suited to move the UK forward, and if it is the Tories, with a Leave manifesto so be it.
		
Click to expand...

Ummm, isnâ€™t that what happened last time ..... ?
Result - lying, untrustworthy people like Raab 

Itâ€™s certainly causing an outrage - a politician doing something he said he would do!
The reaction and outcry from the opposition is hilarious.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 28, 2019)

Ruth Davidson quits as leader of Scots Tories.
Probably due to embarrassment of her party.
Next leader could probably be pro Indy. [if they have any ambition].


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## JamesR (Aug 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The mistake you've made there is listening to Boris. The EU have said no changes to the agreement and our MPs won't accept the agreement. And why should the EU negotiate when many of our own MPs are doing such sterling work in preventing Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Fortunately Iâ€™ve never made the mistake of listening to and believing Boris, or any politician for that matter.


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## User62651 (Aug 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ruth Davidson quits as leader of Scots Tories.
Probably due to embarrassment of her party.
Next leader could probably be pro Indy. [if they have any ambition].
		
Click to expand...

Is that official, thought it was a rumour?

Don't mind Ruthy but she's not in tune with BJ at all, that'll be more of the dreadful Jackson Carlaw then......nooooo

I think after today Brexit is now done and dusted, No Deal it is, no matter the cost.

Cummings and co have played this well to date, to think politics used to be so boring. However BJ can forget about the 13 MPs he currently has up here if there is another GE so who knows how that will go, if only 'sit on the fence' Corbyn would stand down I think Labour could have benefitted but they're nowhere in the polls.

Queen generally has to follow her PMs lead politically so any blame can be pinned squarely on the PM should a policy go badly. She had to ok the proroguing which was cleverly disguised.

Aside from the remain v leave nonsense I find where we are these days a bit worrying. What an unstable place we live in, didn't think the UK could do this to itself. Hopefully Remainers concerns will prove unfounded but loss of freedom of movement is still my main disappointment.

It'll be Indyref2 next and then a rejoin EU ref no doubt. Oh joy.


edit: just noticed new forum feature showing how many posts you've made per thread, 186 on here, holy crap, thought I'd stepped back, I'm out.


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## ger147 (Aug 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Is that official, thought it was a rumour? 

Don't mind Ruthy but she's not in tune with BJ at all, that'll be more of the dreadful Jackson Carlaw then......nooooo 

I think after today Brexit is now done and dusted, No Deal it is, no matter the cost.

Cummings and co have played this well to date, to think politics used to be so boring. However BJ can forget about the 13 MPs he currently has up here if there is another GE so who knows how that will go, if only 'sit on the fence' Corbyn would stand down I think Labour could have benefitted but they're nowhere in the polls.

Queen generally has to follow her PMs lead politically so any blame can be pinned squarely on the PM should a policy go badly. She had to ok the proroguing which was cleverly disguised.

Aside from the remain v leave nonsense I find where we are these days a bit worrying. What an unstable place we live in, didn't think the UK could do this to itself. Hopefully Remainers concerns will prove unfounded but loss of freedom of movement is still my main disappointment.

It'll be Indyref2 next and then a rejoin EU ref no doubt. Oh joy.

Click to expand...

No, not official.  Statement not expected from her until tomorrow.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Is that official, thought it was a rumour?

Don't mind Ruthy but she's not in tune with BJ at all, that'll be more of the dreadful Jackson Carlaw then......nooooo

I think after today Brexit is now done and dusted, No Deal it is, no matter the cost.

Cummings and co have played this well to date, to think politics used to be so boring. However BJ can forget about the 13 MPs he currently has up here if there is another GE so who knows how that will go, if only 'sit on the fence' Corbyn would stand down I think Labour could have benefitted but they're nowhere in the polls.

Queen generally has to follow her PMs lead politically so any blame can be pinned squarely on the PM should a policy go badly. She had to ok the proroguing which was cleverly disguised.

Aside from the remain v leave nonsense I find where we are these days a bit worrying. What an unstable place we live in, didn't think the UK could do this to itself. Hopefully Remainers concerns will prove unfounded but loss of freedom of movement is still my main disappointment.

It'll be Indyref2 next and then a rejoin EU ref no doubt. Oh joy.

Click to expand...

We have caused them so much hassle I am not sure they would let us rejoin.
Only our contributions would sway it but imagine the clauses they would want, join euro etc.


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## IanM (Aug 28, 2019)

All this cos we are not allowed to leave the EU. Three years wilful delay to the result of the Referendum.  And this thread hasnâ€™t moved a soul in three years.  

Hilarious.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

That'll be great, rejoin the EU, ditch stirling and get the euro and a large joining fee instead.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ruth Davidson quits as leader of Scots Tories.
Probably due to embarrassment of her party.
Next leader could probably be pro Indy. [if they have any ambition].
		
Click to expand...

Bit premature Doon. Word is she also has personal problems â˜¹ï¸


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## Tashyboy (Aug 28, 2019)

Al bet Corbyn wishes he had now sung " God save the Queen".


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## drdel (Aug 28, 2019)

Well May had the ball and dropped it (and in fact forgot the game she was playing). Johnson has picked up the 'bat' and he's got a load of his own side playing against him with not regard for the rules.

He's at least playing the 'game' and trying to get the the public the result they voted for by using the 'opposition's'  own tactics. It should be no surprise.

I wonder what any of us would do faced with a load of duplicitous colleagues - He's is trying and the Brussels bandits are now listening.

I see Verhofstadt (that unbiased EU negotiator and Liberal democrat) is outraged and lecturing us on how the HoC should proceed - that'll guarantee the PM more public support.

The Independent now reports that the MEPs from across EU member states will attempt to hold the UK in contempt of democratic process and impose _undemocratic_ sanctions against the UK's citizens - really!!


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## Jacko_G (Aug 28, 2019)

Country voted. BoJo is delivering what they voted for. 

Democracy at its finest.


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## User62651 (Aug 28, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Country voted. BoJo is delivering what they voted for.

Democracy at its finest.
		
Click to expand...

Careful what you wish for, all playing nicely into SNPs hands. No Deal arguably affects us worst of all. With Davidson out the way who will step up?  There aren't any politicians of note in Holyrood other than Sturgeon and Davidson these days.


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## Jacko_G (Aug 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Careful what you wish for, all playing nicely into SNPs hands. No Deal arguably affects us worst of all. With Davidson out the way who will step up?  There aren't any politicians of note in Holyrood other than Sturgeon and Davidson these days.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not wishing for anything I'm saying he's delivering what the public voted for. 

I voted for independence, I lost and I accept that and I'm not beating the drum for another vote.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 28, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Country voted. BoJo is delivering what they voted for.

Democracy at its finest.
		
Click to expand...

I'm really enjoying hearing so many Remainers, who have spent the last three years trying to ignore/overturn the result of the referendum - the biggest democratic vote in UK history, complaining that what Boris is doing is undemocratic. It seems that there a many people that really like democracy as long as you agree with them.


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## drdel (Aug 28, 2019)

Boris is following the normal process for a new session.

In fact in April a Labour MP was moaning to Theresa May ...
Chris Bryant said â€œIf the stories are true that the government is delaying the Queenâ€™s Speech again, this will be the longest parliamentary session in the modern era.â€ 

There's no pleasing some people.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 28, 2019)

Couldn't resist;


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## IanM (Aug 28, 2019)

EU leaders in meltdown on Twitter 

Cash Cow Mugs rebelling.   How dare they!


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## spongebob59 (Aug 28, 2019)

This will calm it all down



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166753951338942465


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 29, 2019)

Not one single Scottish Tory MP, MSP or MEP is 'available' to talk on Radio Scotland this morning, nae wonder.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 29, 2019)

Where as nicola who lost an indy vote and brexit vote and has not carried out the will of the people has plenty to say ðŸ¤”


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Where as nicola who lost an indy vote and brexit vote and has not carried out the will of the people has plenty to say ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

How could she lose a Brexit vote, Scotland voted strongly to remain in the EU  
#whataboutry.


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## Grant85 (Aug 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Bit premature Doon. Word is she also has personal problems â˜¹ï¸
		
Click to expand...

This may be true, but lots of people go through personal problems in high profile jobs and manage through with a support network, medication, therapy, delegation of parts of role etc. And lets be honest, she's only leading a few dozen Scottish Tory MPs - hardly something she couldn't take a break from to recover, if she was really committed to the role. She is going to remain an MSP... so will still be working full time in a public role.

Being sceptical, I'd imagine it has more to do with her no longer having the PM's ear and in fact many Tory MPs and most of the members do not share her views on Europe or even that it is worth keeping Scotland in the UK.

It's one thing being an 'insurgent' in the party and raising your profile and status of yourself and Scottish Tory politician's you lead, as well as having some kind of electoral success. It's another seeing that status evaporate in a number of months and having to resist shouting from the sidelines for the sake of some kind of appearance of party unity.

Ruth can likely see the writing on the wall. Perhaps she feels a No Deal is not likely to be avoided, her party in England has become UKIP with a blue rosette, NI will effectively be cast into the Irish sea with the rest of Ireland, retaining defacto EU status - the UK economy will enter a recession within the next 12 months... and the people who are left trying to argue for the Union and worse trying to claim a second Scottish Referendum shouldn't even be on the table, will look like a battered wife claiming that their husband 'is just under a bit of stress and he still loves me, really'.

Clearly not a scenario she has the stomach for... especially with potentially having to defend Boris in every broadcast interview she does while they are both still in their current roles. Especially if there was a UK election called and you can't suddenly be 'unavailable for an interview'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 29, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			This may be true, but lots of people go through personal problems in high profile jobs and manage through with a support network, medication, therapy, delegation of parts of role etc. And lets be honest, she's only leading a few dozen Scottish Tory MPs - hardly something she couldn't take a break from to recover, if she was really committed to the role. She is going to remain an MSP... so will still be working full time in a public role.

Being sceptical, I'd imagine it has more to do with her no longer having the PM's ear and in fact many Tory MPs and most of the members do not share her views on Europe or even that it is worth keeping Scotland in the UK.

It's one thing being an 'insurgent' in the party and raising your profile and status of yourself and Scottish Tory politician's you lead, as well as having some kind of electoral success. It's another seeing that status evaporate in a number of months and having to resist shouting from the sidelines for the sake of some kind of appearance of party unity.

Ruth can likely see the writing on the wall. Perhaps she feels a No Deal is not likely to be avoided, her party in England has become UKIP with a blue rosette, NI will effectively be cast into the Irish sea with the rest of Ireland, retaining defacto EU status - the UK economy will enter a recession within the next 12 months... and the people who are left trying to argue for the Union and worse trying to claim a second Scottish Referendum shouldn't even be on the table, will look like a battered wife claiming that their husband 'is just under a bit of stress and he still loves me, really'.

Clearly not a scenario she has the stomach for... especially with potentially having to defend Boris in every broadcast interview she does while they are both still in their current roles. Especially if there was a UK election called and you can't suddenly be 'unavailable for an interview'.
		
Click to expand...

And actually wee Roothie has been a senior Scottish Tory Party person that I could (almost  ) relate to...and if UK Tory Party leader could have changed my perception of that party.  But not to be.  She will be a loss to Scottish politics as a whole - someone able to take Sturgeon on and push her.  No idea who might replace her if she steps down.  Whatever is driving her personal concerns - and that might simply be the pressures of caring for a wean or the lack of time she can put to it - I wish her well.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Where as nicola who lost an indy vote and brexit vote and has not carried out the will of the people has plenty to say ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Mogg responds to Sturgeon calling him a â€œ_tin-pot dictator_â€œ.
â€œ_If the PM said Christmas Day was 25 December, Nicola Sturgeon would be outraged and shocked by that, so I wouldnâ€™t worry too much about what the Scottish leader has to sa_y.â€


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## User62651 (Aug 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Mogg responds to Sturgeon calling him a â€œ_tin-pot dictator_â€œ.
â€œ_If the PM said Christmas Day was 25 December, Nicola Sturgeon would be outraged and shocked by that, so I wouldnâ€™t worry too much about what the Scottish leader has to sa_y.â€
		
Click to expand...

Well Mogg is lying about the proroguing and Johnson is always lying (and been sacked twice for it) and I guess Sturgeon lies a bit too. What's your point?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Well Mogg is lying about the proroguing and Johnson is always lying (and been sacked twice for it) and I guess Sturgeon lies a bit too. What's your point?
		
Click to expand...

I think it was that Mogg had a reply.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 29, 2019)

And so RD has resigned.  I'm thinking that she cannae stand Johnson and his arrogant and almost dismissive attitude towards the concerns of Scots and Scotland as exemplified to her by his sacking of David Mundell.  She might well have put up with him had it not been for her wish to be able to spend time with her babe.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			This may be true, but lots of people go through personal problems in high profile jobs and manage through with a support network, medication, therapy, delegation of parts of role etc. And lets be honest, she's only leading a few dozen Scottish Tory MPs - hardly something she couldn't take a break from to recover, if she was really committed to the role. She is going to remain an MSP... so will still be working full time in a public role.

Being sceptical, I'd imagine it has more to do with her no longer having the PM's ear and in fact many Tory MPs and most of the members do not share her views on Europe or even that it is worth keeping Scotland in the UK.

It's one thing being an 'insurgent' in the party and raising your profile and status of yourself and Scottish Tory politician's you lead, as well as having some kind of electoral success. It's another seeing that status evaporate in a number of months and having to resist shouting from the sidelines for the sake of some kind of appearance of party unity.

Ruth can likely see the writing on the wall. Perhaps she feels a No Deal is not likely to be avoided, her party in England has become UKIP with a blue rosette, NI will effectively be cast into the Irish sea with the rest of Ireland, retaining defacto EU status - the UK economy will enter a recession within the next 12 months... and the people who are left trying to argue for the Union and worse trying to claim a second Scottish Referendum shouldn't even be on the table, will look like a battered wife claiming that their husband 'is just under a bit of stress and he still loves me, really'.

Clearly not a scenario she has the stomach for... especially with potentially having to defend Boris in every broadcast interview she does while they are both still in their current roles. Especially if there was a UK election called and you can't suddenly be 'unavailable for an interview'.
		
Click to expand...

Why do you suggest NI will be cast into the Irish Sea?
How do you know there will be a recession within twelve months and even if there is are you suggesting Brexit would be the only reason?
Why would Scotland be so keen on an independence when it would mean a huge financial black hole in their economy when England stops paying and the EU wont.
Why does Boris need defending after every interview?


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## Grant85 (Aug 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you suggest NI will be cast into the Irish Sea?
How do you know there will be a recession within twelve months and even if there is are you suggesting Brexit would be the only reason?
Why would Scotland be so keen on an independence when it would mean a huge financial black hole in their economy when England stops paying and the EU wont.
Why does Boris need defending after every interview?
		
Click to expand...

1. No Deal Brexit means either a hard border on the island of Ireland or a hard border in the irish sea as UK will have tariffs that Ireland won't. UK Gov won't tear up Good Friday Agreement, so as soon as they don't need DUP votes it will be 'bye bye NI, enjoy the economic benefits of the EU that the rest of the UK won't'. 
2. Just an estimate. We had a contraction in the economy in last measurable quarter. One more means recession officially triggered. Partly global, but obviously the current political impasse doesn't leave us best placed to do anything about it. 
3. Scottish independence polling has been on the up. Scotland out of UK and inside EU would be an attractive proposition for many people and businesses. English speaking population, a lot of university graduates. A different view and proposition from 2014 that will appeal to businesses and middle classes, who were generally No supporters 5 years ago. 
4. Because journalists would ask her if she agrees with a lot of the things Boris is doing, and clearly she won't. she doesn't agree with No deal and I'd guess she doesn't agree with proroguing parliament. So rather than lie or make up some mealymouthed statement, she's offski. She obviously doesn't like Boris as she backed a non-Boris candidate at every stage of the Tory leadership race.


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## adam6177 (Aug 29, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			2. Just an estimate. We had a contraction in the economy in last measurable quarter. One more means recession officially triggered. Partly global, but obviously the current political impasse doesn't leave us best placed to do anything about it.
		
Click to expand...

This is one of the points that will be jumped on by the media...whether brexit was happening or not we are about to go into recession.  Just look at the mess Germany, Spain, Italy etc are in, not to mention world conditions that brexit has absolutely no impact on.  Yet I can guarantee that the second we go into recession those uneducated on the economy will blame brexit as it fits the agenda.

Our economy cannot grow year on year exponentially, it's simply not possible.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ruth Davidson re Boris Johnson's desire for a Brexit deal: "I have had long conversations with him on this point & I believe him" 

Ruth Davidson tears into ... not Boris ... anti-No Deal MPs. "You had three golden opportunities to support a deal, a goal gaping in front of them. For all the elaborate plans the simplest way to avoid No Deal is to vote for a deal. "For God's Sake do it." 

Didnâ€™t expect David Cameron to come out of Ruth Davidsonâ€™s press conference worse than Boris Johnson, but this quote from her is brutal â€˜referenda should be used to affirm public opinion but not as a way for political leaders to fail to leadâ€™


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## spongebob59 (Aug 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Any news on Sourby 

Click to expand...

FFS !!

Anna Soubry MP

@Anna_Soubry
 Â· 21h
Replying to @ForChange_Now
I have written to HM the Queen asking her for a meeting with other Privy Councillors following the PMs anti democratic proposal to prorogue Parliament.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 29, 2019)

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/lord-young-house-of-lords-resigns/

Lord Young resigns from the cabinet.


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## drdel (Aug 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			FFS !!

Anna Soubry MP

@Anna_Soubry
Â· 21h
Replying to @ForChange_Now
I have written to HM the Queen asking her for a meeting with other Privy Councillors following the PMs anti democratic proposal to prorogue Parliament.
		
Click to expand...

These people have no memory. MPs voted 500+ to 100+ to enact the referendum result and place leaving the EU into law. Somehow some of these people claim the Government's attempt to follow this Act is undemocratic while those, including our unbiased Speaker, who are wishing to prevent UK following their defined legal path are being democratic!

As if politicians could be more stupid in the eyes of voters !


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## ger147 (Aug 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/lord-young-house-of-lords-resigns/

Lord Young resigns from the cabinet.
		
Click to expand...

Lord Young was not a member of the cabinet, he has resigned from the government and the Tory whip.

Not every minister is a member of the cabinet, in fact the majority of ministers are not in the cabinet.


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## drdel (Aug 29, 2019)

Those unelected bastions of democracy in the House of Lords may decide to work all weekend to pass legislation to hamstring the elected Government!


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## Dando (Aug 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			Those unelected bastions of democracy in the House of Lords may decide to work all weekend to pass legislation to hamstring the elected Government!
		
Click to expand...

they'll do anything to get their daily allowance and no doubt the robbing bar stewards will try and claim over time too


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 29, 2019)

Dando said:



			they'll do anything to get their daily allowance and no doubt the robbing bar stewards will try and claim over time too
		
Click to expand...

Double time on a weekend?


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## User62651 (Aug 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			Those unelected bastions of democracy in the House of Lords may decide to work all weekend to pass legislation to hamstring the elected Government!
		
Click to expand...

Ignorant comment, clearly you are enjoying the proroguing and avoidance of scrutiny, so  how would you have government set up then? One blonde lying cheating racist eejit and a couple of his goons doing whatever they like?


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## Dando (Aug 29, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Double time on a weekend? 

Click to expand...

at least, and probably expenses for 5* hotels too


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## Mudball (Aug 29, 2019)

A week is a long time in politics...  Letter apparently written by BoJo to say that he wont prorogate.. and now we know what he did.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166749095723245568


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## Tashyboy (Aug 29, 2019)

They all lie i think is the point.


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## jp5 (Aug 29, 2019)

Imagine if Corbyn did the same with his policies ... is a dangerous precedent to set.


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## drdel (Aug 29, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



*Ignorant comment*, clearly you are enjoying the proroguing and avoidance of scrutiny, so  how would you have government set up then? One blonde lying cheating racist eejit and a couple of his goons doing whatever they like?
		
Click to expand...

You are quite right I do find the tortuous nature of today's politics a joke. However, IMO your phraseology rather eloquently demonstrates the source of ignorant commentary.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 29, 2019)

I have heard many ecstatic Leave votes today extol the virtues and greatness of Johnson for showing strength and greatness in effectively slamming the door shut on Remoaners and ramming a No Deal through if that is what happens, and it will as there is little chance of a Deal - and these voters know it and are happy with it.

And we have Johnson and his goons telling us that Johnson has done it for matters relating to 'getting on with business' and nothing whatsoever to do with the Brexit mess.

Do these leave voters think they are wrong, or that Johnson is lying?  because both can't be true.  Well - many thought that what Johnson and his goons have said today are just a pack of lies, albeit expedient lies, and they are absolutely happy with that.

What a sad and desperate state of affairs


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## spongebob59 (Aug 29, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1167048291273584641
The part of this which is extraordinary and totally compelling is when the defence secretary Wallace says he doesnâ€™t know what the â€œend of thisâ€ - the suspension of parliament - will be, and collapses in hysterical laughter To be fastidious, Wallace said â€œoutcome of itâ€ not â€œend of thisâ€. Misheard. Same meaning though


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## spongebob59 (Aug 29, 2019)

Momentum national co-ordinator Laura Parker calls on the group's members to â€œoccupy bridges and blockade roadsâ€ in protest at Boris Johnson suspending Parliament. She says: "Our message to Johnson is this: if you steal our democracy, weâ€™ll shut down the streets.â€


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## Foxholer (Aug 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...
Why does Boris need defending after every interview?
		
Click to expand...

Indeed!

Perhaps because he's such an obvious lying, cheating, untrustworthy 'bar-steward'? And, once he gets out of 'briefed/planned reply' mode, he's liable to make too many gaffes with his off-the-cuff responses!

Though I'm confident he will get his 'No Deal' done. So on this matter, he has my approval - fwiw! 

Whether he survives and flourishes - even if the country doesn't - or gets sacrificed (martyred?) as a consequence of his determination, will, to me, most likely depend on events/conditions outside his control. But I don't see Labour ousting the Tories with Corbyn running their 'team'! He's dragging too many anchors of his own!


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## patricks148 (Aug 29, 2019)

The worrying thing is for all these people who voted leave off the back of Imigration, what are they going to do when we do a trade deal with say India and that may include free movement or as Boris himself made a point o not so long ago what about Turkey, which he was so against joining the EU and millions of Turks coming to the UK... what then??


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## robinthehood (Aug 29, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			The worrying thing is for all these people who voted leave off the back of Imigration, what are they going to do when we do a trade deal with say India and that may include free movement or as Boris himself made a point o not so long ago what about Turkey, which he was so against joining the EU and millions of Turks coming to the UK... what then??
		
Click to expand...

Is that a thing? Or are you just making stuff up?


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## patricks148 (Aug 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Is that a thing? Or are you just making stuff up?
		
Click to expand...

heard and seen it mention a few times, trade deals may include free movent.... who knows, no deals done yet, but its a possibility


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have heard many ecstatic Leave votes today extol the virtues and greatness of Johnson for showing strength and greatness in effectively slamming the door shut on Remoaners and ramming a No Deal through if that is what happens, and it will as there is little chance of a Deal - and these voters know it and are happy with it.

And we have Johnson and his goons telling us that Johnson has done it for matters relating to 'getting on with business' and nothing whatsoever to do with the Brexit mess.

Do these leave voters think they are wrong, or that Johnson is lying?  because both can't be true.  Well - many thought that what Johnson and his goons have said today are just a pack of lies, albeit expedient lies, and they are absolutely happy with that.

What a sad and desperate state of affairs
		
Click to expand...

I guess you are content with the Goon Remainers in Parliament who say they are working against a 'No Deal' when in reality they are trying to kill Brexit off completely. Do Remain voters  think they are wrong or they are lying? Because both cant be true.
Hypocritical claptrap, that's what your likes are spouting.


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## Foxholer (Aug 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Momentum national co-ordinator Laura Parker calls on the group's members to â€œoccupy bridges and blockade roadsâ€ in protest at Boris Johnson suspending Parliament. She says: "Our message to Johnson is this: if you steal our democracy, weâ€™ll shut down the streets.â€
		
Click to expand...

If their leaders were at the forefront of that protest, it might be a great opportunity to 'eliminate' them!

Not a group I have much empathy with!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			The worrying thing is for all these people who voted leave off the back of Imigration, what are they going to do when we do a trade deal with say India and that may include free movement or as Boris himself made a point o not so long ago what about Turkey, which he was so against joining the EU and millions of Turks coming to the UK... what then??
		
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Free movement with India has not been considered and never will, theres just too many of them, just like China.  There was some discussion on how it would make sense for some very specialised companies to be able to move staff from one international office to another. This has been used in the world of 'fake news' to suggest India would insist on complete freedom of movement for its entire population as part of a free trade deal.  Does anyone honestly believe this would be agreed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess you are content with the Goon Remainers in Parliament who say they are working against a 'No Deal' when in reality they are trying to kill Brexit off completely. Do Remain voters  think they are wrong or they are lying? Because both cant be true.
Hypocritical claptrap, that's what your likes are spouting.
		
Click to expand...

Rather than do your usual rant aimed directly or indirectly at me whenever I post something that you don't like to hear about Leaving on No Deal, or on the incredible and often ignorant views of some Leave voters - how about addressing the point of my post - that many Leave voters seem quite comfortable - in fact celebrate - that Johnson and his goons are lying to us - that they *know *that they are lying to us and they celebrate?

And just wait to hear what else Johnson and his cadre of acolytes have in store for parliament to block anything the MPs might try and do.  All perfectly legal stuff of course - though extraordinary.  Extra Bank Holiday anyone?


----------



## patricks148 (Aug 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Free movement with India has not been considered and never will, theres just too many of them, just like China.  There was some discussion on how it would make sense for some very specialised companies to be able to move staff from one international office to another. This has been used in the world of 'fake news' to suggest India would insist on complete freedom of movement for its entire population as part of a free trade deal.  Does anyone honestly believe this would be agreed.
		
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who said it wouldn't be agreed or considered???? Boris


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*Free movement with India has not been considered and never will,* theres just too many of them, just like China.  There was some discussion on how it would make sense for some very specialised companies to be able to move staff from one international office to another. This has been used in the world of 'fake news' to suggest India would insist on complete freedom of movement for its entire population as part of a free trade deal.  Does anyone honestly believe this would be agreed.
		
Click to expand...

No?  Ah right.  This is all Fake News - because it doesn't suit you to hear it?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/59942...gration-to-the-uk-for-brexit-free-trade-deal/
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-for-indians-to-win-post-brexit-deals-say-mps

But you may be right.  Just imagine.  All these extra brown faces.  Yes - too many brown faces in supermarkets and on our streets was one reason some Leave voters (hopefully a very small number but I wish that were true) gave for voting to Leave.  Sadly you don't need to make up that sort of ignorant and bigoted thinking.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obriens-response-to-racist-brexit-voter/


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## Foxholer (Aug 29, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			who said it wouldn't be agreed or considered???? Boris

Click to expand...

He does get some things right then!

Btw. Considered..yes - for a millisecond. Agreed....Never!


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## Grant85 (Aug 29, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			This is one of the points that will be jumped on by the media...whether brexit was happening or not we are about to go into recession.  Just look at the mess Germany, Spain, Italy etc are in, not to mention world conditions that brexit has absolutely no impact on.  Yet I can guarantee that the second we go into recession those uneducated on the economy will blame brexit as it fits the agenda.

Our economy cannot grow year on year exponentially, it's simply not possible.
		
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I actually think the media have been fairly restrained on this point. I agree it is a lazy piece of analysis to make, but while this impasse rumbles on - the country is not in a position to attract people, business or capital to stimulate the economy.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			1. No Deal Brexit means either a hard border on the island of Ireland or a hard border in the irish sea as UK will have tariffs that Ireland won't. UK Gov won't tear up Good Friday Agreement, so as soon as they don't need DUP votes it will be 'bye bye NI, enjoy the economic benefits of the EU that the rest of the UK won't'.
2. Just an estimate. We had a contraction in the economy in last measurable quarter. One more means recession officially triggered. Partly global, but obviously the current political impasse doesn't leave us best placed to do anything about it.
3. Scottish independence polling has been on the up. Scotland out of UK and inside EU would be an attractive proposition for many people and businesses. English speaking population, a lot of university graduates. A different view and proposition from 2014 that will appeal to businesses and middle classes, who were generally No supporters 5 years ago.
4. Because journalists would ask her if she agrees with a lot of the things Boris is doing, and clearly she won't. she doesn't agree with No deal and I'd guess she doesn't agree with proroguing parliament. So rather than lie or make up some mealymouthed statement, she's offski. She obviously doesn't like Boris as she backed a non-Boris candidate at every stage of the Tory leadership race.
		
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1. No Deal Brexit doesn't mean any of those things unless the EU refuse to agree a free trade arrangement with the UK, something they should have done at the start of a withdraw agreement but refused to do.  They have kicked every opportunity to sort this into the long grass and continue to do so.  It would be so easy for them to do this and negate the backstop if they wished.
2.You do agree we will not be in definite recession then?  And  if we did it will not necessarily be due to the UKs attitude to Brexit. Do you not agree the free trade arrangement  I mentioned in (1) would also have reduced such a risk of a hard border and resession. The EU  could easily negate this concern on the border if they wished.
3. I reiterate, how would an independant Scotland fill the huge financial black hole that is being plugged by the rest of the UK, do they think the EU would give them membership and finance this bugetry deficit, I am certain they would insist on a major austerity program which would make many Scots think again about their previous UK union verses the new one they've tied themselves into What about the cost of losing free trade in the UK single market?
4. Following her clarifications today I think she does have family pressures and is not running away from Boris.


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## Dando (Aug 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess you are content with the Goon Remainers in Parliament who say they are working against a 'No Deal' when in reality they are trying to kill Brexit off completely. Do Remain voters  think they are wrong or they are lying? Because both cant be true.
Hypocritical claptrap, that's what your likes are spouting.
		
Click to expand...

Of course heâ€™s happy with what theyâ€™re trying to do as he's just another child who canâ€™t accept losing!
if we left and it all went tits up heâ€™d be happier than a dog with 2 dicks, then weâ€™d get inundated with the â€œI told you soâ€ posts


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			They all lie i think is the point.
		
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Realise the point.
But Trump and his Minnee Mee Johnson just keep raising the bar.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 29, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Ignorant comment, clearly you are enjoying the proroguing and avoidance of scrutiny, so  how would you have government set up then? One blonde lying cheating racist eejit and a couple of his goons doing whatever they like?
		
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Jings ..images of martial law with tanks and troops on the street.
Using the Bj's water cannon of course, have we still got them.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166833685380980738Looks like the CS are first off the block


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No?  Ah right.  This is all Fake News - because it doesn't suit you to hear it?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/59942...gration-to-the-uk-for-brexit-free-trade-deal/
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-for-indians-to-win-post-brexit-deals-say-mps

But you may be right.  Just imagine.  All these extra brown faces.  Yes - too many brown faces in supermarkets and on our streets was one reason some Leave voters (hopefully a very small number but I wish that were true) gave for voting to Leave.  Sadly you don't need to make up that sort of ignorant and bigoted thinking.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obriens-response-to-racist-brexit-voter/

Click to expand...

Back to using the racist card to attack Brexit. Pathetic!  'All those extra brown faces in the supermarkets, what are you on?

I said the NUMBERS would stop a free movement agreement with India and you turn that into 'Brown faces in supermarkets'

Here's an article from your precious Guardian that explains India's ideas on better use of visas for highly skilled people and students.  Its a bit of an exaggeration to compare this with 'Free movement'
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/07/theresa-may-visa-offer-india-citizens-uk


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## Old Skier (Aug 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not one single Scottish Tory MP, MSP or MEP is 'available' to talk on Radio Scotland this morning, nae wonder.
		
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No MP is up in the morning.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 29, 2019)

Disgusting :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1167158117337096192


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## spongebob59 (Aug 29, 2019)

Tory MP Ken Clarke tells Sky he "probably would" support 
@jeremycorbyn
 as a caretaker PM to stop no deal. But only if he could be kept "under control" and "wouldn't have the slightest chance of implementing any bits of his Labour manifesto" But Clarke says he doesn't think he'll need to as so few Tories will do the same. He also calls Jeremy Corbyn the "least suitable person of all" to gather cross party support in the Commons to block no deal. He says he is a "red rag to a bull for all sides".


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 29, 2019)

Johnson seems 'overexcited' to be pictured with Trump 
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-27/boris-johnson-and-donald-trump/11451592


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			who said it wouldn't be agreed or considered???? Boris

Click to expand...

No, I did.  Please prove me wrong ðŸ™„


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson seems 'overexcited' to be pictured with Trump 
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-27/boris-johnson-and-donald-trump/11451592

Click to expand...

Try harder.


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## Dando (Aug 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Disgusting :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1167158117337096192

Click to expand...

Imagine the reaction and comments if it were leavers protesting outside a remoamer mpâ€™s house


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## patricks148 (Aug 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No, I did.  Please prove me wrong ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

i don't need to prove anything you will just have to wait and see.

while we are on the subject of Imigration whats your thoughts on the fact that we had more from out side the EU in the last few years than from it something the Gov could control, but chose instead to cut funding and staff from the border force when the Tories came to power in 2010


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## User62651 (Aug 30, 2019)

Dando said:



			Imagine the reaction and comments if it were leavers protesting outside a remoamer mpâ€™s house
		
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Reaction would and should be the same either way - that kind of mob mentality is wrong, stupid, highly unpleasant and probably illegal so stop it.


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## oxymoron (Aug 30, 2019)

I dont know if it is true or not but i read on a news site (yahoo i think ) that several European politicians are now looking to look again at the deal , does this mean the threat of a no-deal exit has now hit home and the EU have come to the realization that this is a possibility ? It is amazing what a politician with some guts can achieve , not that i am a fan of his by the way .


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i don't need to prove anything you will just have to wait and see.

while we are on the subject of Imigration whats your thoughts on the fact that we had more from out side the EU in the last few years than from it something the Gov could control, but chose instead to cut funding and staff from the border force when the Tories came to power in 2010
		
Click to expand...

I have made my view well known on this subject and it is based on overpopulation. If you want a debate on the subject then open a new thread.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 30, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1167366357366845440


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			I dont know if it is true or not but i read on a news site (yahoo i think ) that several European politicians are now looking to look again at the deal , does this mean the threat of a no-deal exit has now hit home and the EU have come to the realization that this is a possibility ? It is amazing what a politician with some guts can achieve , not that i am a fan of his by the way .
		
Click to expand...

These cretins working to remove no deal are saying to the EU 'Dont offer us anything else than the current WA' although they have rejected it three times already.  Why dont they just own up to what they. really want which is  staying in the EU and for Corbyn its becomming PM, hes not interested in Brexit its just a lever to get him through the door. They will not accept any deal no matter how good it is, so instead of playing their treacherous games just grow some and tell us the truth.


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## Kellfire (Aug 30, 2019)

Remember when another extreme political party decided it didn't want to share power with anyone and decided to impose its own radical agenda on its country by effectively shutting down government?

Ok, so the Nazis burned the Reichstag down, but proroguing is the modern day version.


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## PieMan (Aug 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Remember when another extreme political party decided it didn't want to share power with anyone and decided to impose its own radical agenda on its country by effectively shutting down government?

Ok, so the Nazis burned the Reichstag down, but proroguing is the modern day version.
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't even come anywhere close.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 30, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1167366357366845440

Click to expand...

If this is what you mean ......the full case still going ahead on the original date of 6th Sept.
https://stv.tv/news/politics/1440378-judge-rejects-first-bid-to-stop-parliament-suspension/


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## spongebob59 (Aug 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			These cretins working to remove no deal are saying to the EU 'Dont offer us anything else than the current WA' although they have rejected it three times already.  Why dont they just own up to what they. really want which is  staying in the EU and for Corbyn its becomming PM, hes not interested in Brexit its just a lever to get him through the door.* They will not accept any deal no matter how good it is, so instead of playing their treacherous games just grow some and tell us the truth*.
		
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More chance of me winning the Masters than that.


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## Kellfire (Aug 30, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Doesn't even come anywhere close.
		
Click to expand...

Same idea. Modern day version.


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## robinthehood (Aug 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Remember when another extreme political party decided it didn't want to share power with anyone and decided to impose its own radical agenda on its country by effectively shutting down government?

Ok, so the Nazis burned the Reichstag down, but proroguing is the modern day version.
		
Click to expand...

Ah godwins law. Surley it can't have taken this long to get there?


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 30, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			More chance of me winning the Masters than that. 

Click to expand...

But not denied as your pro Brexit blog said.
From what I understand BJ has to give a sworn statement that his actions are not what his defence minister implied.
[stopping Parliament making a decision on No Deal]
He could be on quite tricky ground.


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## PieMan (Aug 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Same idea. Modern day version.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but you're comparing our current Government with a regime that took the world into a conflict that claimed tens of millions of lives, not to mention trying to exterminate Jews, Slavs, Gypsies and homosexuals. As someone with Jewish ancestors I find that actually quite appalling.


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## IanM (Aug 30, 2019)

BBC news reporting this like Parliament is closed permanently, rather than a few days!  I guess all those EU Grants buy a lot of airtime. 

3 years of trying to overturn the referendum and they still won't belt up!


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## IanM (Aug 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Same idea. Modern day version.
		
Click to expand...

Disgusting.  Quite disgusting. 

Wont be long before Holocaust Denial will be Labour Policy.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			But not denied as your pro Brexit blog said.
From what I understand BJ has to give a sworn statement that his actions are not what his defence minister implied.
[stopping Parliament making a decision on No Deal]
He could be on quite tricky ground.
		
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He doesn't 'have to' he was asked to.
What about Corbyn making an affidavit that he will honour the result of the referendum like he previously said he would.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Same idea. Modern day version.
		
Click to expand...

You really are a nasty piece of work. Comparing the current government with the Third Reich is disgusting. Maybe you should reconsider that comment and rescind it.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Remember when another extreme political party decided it didn't want to share power with anyone and decided to impose its own radical agenda on its country by effectively shutting down government?

Ok, so the Nazis burned the Reichstag down, but proroguing is the modern day version.
		
Click to expand...


ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ you really are the gift that keeps giving! Keep it upðŸ‘


----------



## Fade and Die (Aug 30, 2019)

Really enjoyed listening to the remainers bleating on LBC today about Boris trying to take democracy away! The Irony is delicious...


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2019)

Comparing the current government to Nazis ? Blimey whilst I think they are bunch of incompetent idiots -Nazis they are not 

Can this thread be suspended at the same time as Government


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## Fade and Die (Aug 30, 2019)

I see irrelevant dinosaur John Major has announced plans to join the legal action to stop Boris from proroguing parliament!...

Is this the same John Major who prorogued parliament in 1997 to avoid the publication of an embarrassing report into the â€œcash for questionsâ€ scandal involving his government? ðŸ˜‚

Is there no limit to the level of hypocrisy the remainers will stoop?ðŸ˜”


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## Kellfire (Aug 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You really are a nasty piece of work. Comparing the current government with the Third Reich is disgusting. Maybe you should reconsider that comment and rescind it.
		
Click to expand...

Wow. 

There is no way I will rescind it. Both were the acts of disgusting politicians overstepping their mark and forcing a despicable decision on their people. 

This is a precedent being set. There is a terrifying wave of right wing politics and abhorrent leaders in the world right now and weâ€™re just sleepwalking into an awful situation. 

Those who demand their â€œdemocratic rightâ€ for a Brexit are actually relinquishing it without a fight and itâ€™s pretty obvious that the likes of Johnson and Mogg have only nefarious aims with their new found power. 

The â€œ52%â€ have been conned into giving up the freedom they thought they were fighting for and sadly itâ€™s been while the rest have tried to warn them it was all a rouse. 

Dark days ahead.


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## anotherdouble (Aug 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Wow.

There is no way I will rescind it. Both were the acts of disgusting politicians overstepping their mark and forcing a despicable decision on their people.

This is a precedent being set. There is a terrifying wave of right wing politics and abhorrent leaders in the world right now and weâ€™re just sleepwalking into an awful situation.

Those who demand their â€œdemocratic rightâ€ for a Brexit are actually relinquishing it without a fight and itâ€™s pretty obvious that the likes of Johnson and Mogg have only nefarious aims with their new found power.

The â€œ52%â€ have been conned into giving up the freedom they thought they were fighting for and sadly itâ€™s been while the rest have tried to warn them it was all a rouse.

Dark days ahead.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s like being at Hyde Park Corner on a Sunday without leaving my settee. Thank you so much. ðŸ˜


----------



## Kellfire (Aug 30, 2019)

anotherdouble said:



			Itâ€™s like being at Hyde Park Corner on a Sunday without leaving my settee. Thank you so much. ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

We want to be British again. Claim back our country. But weâ€™ll bypass our own political system to do that and remove any influence the public have. 

Yep. That sounds like weâ€™ve reclaimed what it means to be British. 

Sigh.


----------



## Kellfire (Aug 30, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Really enjoyed listening to the remainers bleating on LBC today about Boris trying to take democracy away! The Irony is delicious...
		
Click to expand...

How does it feel to be so utterly conned by Johnson?


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Wow.

There is no way I will rescind it. Both were the acts of disgusting politicians overstepping their mark and forcing a despicable decision on their people.

This is a precedent being set. There is a terrifying wave of right wing politics and abhorrent leaders in the world right now and weâ€™re just sleepwalking into an awful situation.

Those who demand their â€œdemocratic rightâ€ for a Brexit are actually relinquishing it without a fight and itâ€™s pretty obvious that the likes of Johnson and Mogg have only nefarious aims with their new found power.

The â€œ52%â€ have been conned into giving up the freedom they thought they were fighting for and sadly itâ€™s been while the rest have tried to warn them it was all a rouse.

Dark days ahead.
		
Click to expand...

You need serious help.


----------



## chrisd (Aug 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Remember when another extreme political party decided it didn't want to share power with anyone and decided to impose its own radical agenda on its country by effectively shutting down government?

Ok, so the Nazis burned the Reichstag down, but proroguing is the modern day version.
		
Click to expand...

You've spouted a lot of shehite on this forum but this takes it to a new level - you should be ashamed of yourself


----------



## Hitdaball (Aug 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You need serious help.
		
Click to expand...

There is some readable literature around at the moment commenting on the parallels between the past rise of fascism and the current direction of our world politics, and on how tyranny can rise in a modern democracy and the means it might use to try and do so. 

Things like politicians making public attacks on journalism, sloganism becoming more prevalent with little nuance behind it, politicians publicly denying  facts and getting away with it. Anyone see anything like that at that moment in the world? 

Itâ€™s too easy for you Guys to shout you should be ashamed of yourself and you need help-  I think that you should have a quick read through some of the available current academic thinking. 

Iâ€™ve no doubt you will disagree with it but perhaps allow room for some nuance in your opinions.


----------



## Hobbit (Aug 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Remember when another extreme political party decided it didn't want to share power with anyone and decided to impose its own radical agenda on its country by effectively shutting down government?

Ok, so the Nazis burned the Reichstag down, but proroguing is the modern day version.
		
Click to expand...

How many asylum seekers has the U.K. taken in in the last 3 years? How many in the last year?

2018 was the most on record. Not bad for an inward looking country...

You really need to stop thinking in extremes.


----------



## Hobbit (Aug 30, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			There is some readable literature around at the moment commenting on the parallels between the past rise of fascism and the current direction of our world politics, and on how tyranny can rise in a modern democracy and the means it might use to try and do so.

Things like politicians making public attacks on journalism, sloganism becoming more prevalent with little nuance behind it, politicians publicly denying  facts and getting away with it. Anyone see anything like that at that moment in the world?

Itâ€™s too easy for you Guys to shout you should be ashamed of yourself and you need help-  I think that you should have a quick read through some of the available current academic thinking.

Iâ€™ve no doubt you will disagree with it but perhaps allow room for some nuance in your opinions.
		
Click to expand...

Careful... far too reasonable a post.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 30, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			There is some readable literature around at the moment commenting on the parallels between the past rise of fascism and the current direction of our world politics, and on how tyranny can rise in a modern democracy and the means it might use to try and do so.

Things like politicians making public attacks on journalism, sloganism becoming more prevalent with little nuance behind it, politicians publicly denying  facts and getting away with it. Anyone see anything like that at that moment in the world?

Itâ€™s too easy for you Guys to shout you should be ashamed of yourself and you need help-  I think that you should have a quick read through some of the available current academic thinking.

Iâ€™ve no doubt you will disagree with it but perhaps allow room for some nuance in your opinions.
		
Click to expand...

Blimey - you best be careful , you canâ€™t be reasonable like that in the Brexit thread , you will throw the whole balance out ðŸ˜‰( ps great post )


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## Fade and Die (Aug 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Comparing the current government to Nazis ? Blimey whilst I think they are bunch of incompetent idiots -Nazis they are not

Can this thread be suspended at the same time as Government
		
Click to expand...

Hey donâ€™t trample on our democracy man!


anotherdouble said:



			Itâ€™s like being at Hyde Park Corner on a Sunday without leaving my settee. Thank you so much. ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

I can only like this once but yes yes yes 100 times. Bloke is a loon.ðŸ˜‚


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## Tashyboy (Aug 30, 2019)

Hmmmmm a precedence is being set with a "prorogued" Parliment. Think that was set 22 years ago. Talking  about precedents. Flippin Eck we could start a blog on that alone. Think precedents were set when Cameron and May failed to deliver. Chuck in a few MPs whose constituents overwhelmingly voted to leave, yet said MPs know better. Chuck in the precedence of ignoring a democratic majority. Etc etc etc. Wouldn't ever say ave been conned by BoJo. He is a lying politician. Don't think anyone will argue with that. But the alternative, is a snowflake society.


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## Old Skier (Aug 30, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Wow.

There is no way I will rescind it. Both were the acts of disgusting politicians overstepping their mark and forcing a despicable decision on their people.

This is a precedent being set. There is a terrifying wave of right wing politics and abhorrent leaders in the world right now and weâ€™re just sleepwalking into an awful situation.

Those who demand their â€œdemocratic rightâ€ for a Brexit are actually relinquishing it without a fight and itâ€™s pretty obvious that the likes of Johnson and Mogg have only nefarious aims with their new found power.

The â€œ52%â€ have been conned into giving up the freedom they thought they were fighting for and sadly itâ€™s been while the rest have tried to warn them it was all a rouse.

Dark days ahead.
		
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Pray tell why your worried about 5 days of none parliamentary time. Are you going to scream and shout about the extended summer holidays and the free bee conference season.

Left wing Marxist politics is a far bigger threat here than what in terms of the rest of Europe is a small right wing element bunch of nuttiest in this country.


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## chrisd (Aug 30, 2019)

During the 4 days after the Queen's speech the can discuss Brexit every day. It's simple isn't it, trying to stop a no deal Brexit is just remain MP'S trying to stop us leaving as its their only chance. Soon there'll be a GE and they should be given the boot!


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## Old Skier (Aug 30, 2019)

Anyone with half a brain know this isn't about a no deal Brexit, it's about no Brexit. They go on about the lies of Boris but it pails into insignificance compared to those who wish to remain.


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## Mudball (Aug 30, 2019)

Whoever made this... awesome...


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			There is some readable literature around at the moment commenting on the parallels between the past rise of fascism and the current direction of our world politics, and on how tyranny can rise in a modern democracy and the means it might use to try and do so. 

Things like politicians making public attacks on journalism, sloganism becoming more prevalent with little nuance behind it, politicians publicly denying  facts and getting away with it. Anyone see anything like that at that moment in the world? 

Itâ€™s too easy for you Guys to shout you should be ashamed of yourself and you need help-  I think that you should have a quick read through some of the available current academic thinking. 

Iâ€™ve no doubt you will disagree with it but perhaps allow room for some nuance in your opinions.
		
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I dont disagree completely however the rise of the far right gets exaggerated, its not a big threat.  The conditions you portray tend to be prevalent with extreme left governments and political aggitators, a bigger threat to democracy at this time comes from the likes of Corbyn.  Political subtifuse has always been the prefered politics of the far left.

I stand by my comments to #kellfire, his parallels between the present government and the third reich is appaling and unworthy of defense. You are of  course welcome to your views on the world order but do you really defend these comments?


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## Tashyboy (Aug 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont disagree completely however the rise of the far right gets exaggerated, its not a big threat.  The conditions you portray tend to be prevalent with extreme left governments and political aggitators, a bigger threat to democracy at this time comes from the likes of Corbyn.  Political subtifuse has always been the prefered politics of the far left.

I stand by my comments to #kellfire, his parallels between the present government and the third reich is appaling and unworthy of defense. You are of  course welcome to your views on the world order but do you really defend these comments?
		
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Odd someone should compare this country to the third reach. If I had to make a comparison, the way the EU had back doored a lot of its now not wanted policies, rules, laws etc. I would of thought that was more in keeping with kellfires comparisons. ðŸ¤” Maybe it's a good job we have Winston Johnson ðŸ˜–


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## Old Skier (Aug 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Odd someone should compare this country to the third reach. If I had to make a comparison, the way the EU had back doored a lot of its now not wanted policies, rules, laws etc. I would of thought that was more in keeping with kellfires comparisons. ðŸ¤” Maybe it's a good job we have Winston Johnson ðŸ˜–
		
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Which is why the likes of @killfire want to remain


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## Hobbit (Aug 30, 2019)

The perogueing is legal but used disingenuously is immoral. Proving that is impossible. All the MP's, and Bercow, can do now is hope to take control of parliament in the few days they have available and, as they did with May, amend the date for Brexit. The problem with that is just who is going to go to the EU and ask for that extension? Can parliament instruct the PM to ask for the extension? Was May forced to ask or was it what she wanted anyway? And what will the EU's response be?

If parliament can't force through the amendment, does it have time for a No Confidence vote? And if it does, and Boris runs down the clock for 13 of the 14 days he has to respond to the No Confidence vote is there still enough time to fit in an election AND the incoming govt stop Brexit?


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## Tashyboy (Aug 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The perogueing is legal but used disingenuously is immoral. Proving that is impossible. All the MP's, and Bercow, can do now is hope to take control of parliament in the few days they have available and, as they did with May, amend the date for Brexit. The problem with that is just who is going to go to the EU and ask for that extension? Can parliament instruct the PM to ask for the extension? Was May forced to ask or was it what she wanted anyway? And what will the EU's response be?

If parliament can't force through the amendment, does it have time for a No Confidence vote? And if it does, and Boris runs down the clock for 13 of the 14 days he has to respond to the No Confidence vote is there still enough time to fit in an election AND the incoming govt stop Brexit?
		
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In all honesty Hobbit, I think anything is possible. Going back to the day that David Cameron gave us the vote per the manifesto. Who would of thought three years later we would be where we are now. Which to be honest am not exactly sure where we are. What I do know is that we should already be out, but where not. So another extension. Don't rule that out. Quite frankly I wouldn't rule anything out. Still struggling to get my head around why the MPs are so against no deal when they cannot agree on any deal. ðŸ¤”


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## Hitdaball (Aug 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont disagree completely however the rise of the far right gets exaggerated, its not a big threat.  The conditions you portray tend to be prevalent with extreme left governments and political aggitators, a bigger threat to democracy at this time comes from the likes of Corbyn.  Political subtifuse has always been the prefered politics of the far left.

I stand by my comments to #kellfire, his parallels between the present government and the third reich is appaling and unworthy of defense. You are of  course welcome to your views on the world order but do you really defend these comments?
		
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Yes both extreme right and left can and have removed democracy when they think they can get away with. 

How , in your view , is Corbyn a threat to democracy? Iâ€™d be interested to know.  

Re Kellfire I would defend his right to express a view which , as I already suggested in any case , academia would have some sympathy with. Iâ€™m one of those people who still hasnâ€™t given up on experts.


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## Hitdaball (Aug 30, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			In all honesty Hobbit, I think anything is possible. Going back to the day that David Cameron gave us the vote per the manifesto. Who would of thought three years later we would be where we are now. Which to be honest am not exactly sure where we are. What I do know is that we should already be out, but where not. So another extension. Don't rule that out. Quite frankly I wouldn't rule anything out. Still struggling to get my head around why the MPs are so against no deal when they cannot agree on any deal. ðŸ¤”
		
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Tashy we are three years later in this total shit storm because not one of the leave campaign leaders had a single sniff of a plan of what a deal looked like and how they would achieve it.  Not that you would know that by none of the blame being directed towards them.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The perogueing is legal but used disingenuously is immoral.
		
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Its a tactic just like taking over parliamentary business by MPs, like Burcow casting away neutrality, like saying no deal must be stopped but not being prepared to back any deal other than binning article 50.  Its turned into dog eats dog in parliament and is a disgrace to the people who believed their vote was worth something. A house pf turds now.


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## Hobbit (Aug 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its a tactic just like taking over parliamentary business by MPs, like Burcow casting away neutrality, like saying no deal must be stopped but not being prepared to back any deal other than binning article 50.  Its turned into dog eats dog in parliament and is a disgrace to the people who believed their vote was worth something. A house pf turds now.
		
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I don't doubt its a tactic but 2 wrongs don't make a right.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Yes both extreme right and left can and have removed democracy when they think they can get away with.

How , in your view , is Corbyn a threat to democracy? Iâ€™d be interested to know. 

Re Kellfire I would defend his right to express a view which , as I already suggested in any case , academia would have some sympathy with. Iâ€™m one of those people who still hasnâ€™t given up on experts.
		
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Corbyn is a man who has no principles in his quest to install his Neo-Marxist ideals into government. As a lifelong eurosceptic he now bins his long held views on the EU to grab a last chance as an aging politician to lever himself into No 10, then incorporate an extreme socialist program of state control and policies that will stifle enterprise and encourage more and more control over peoples lives, such governments have never succeeded and always reduce personal freedoms in their quest for total state control.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I don't doubt its a tactic but 2 wrongs don't make a right.
		
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They started it ðŸ˜‰


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## Tashyboy (Aug 30, 2019)

Hitdaball, Re Corbyn, I honestly don't get him or the direction that Labour are going. Don't get me wrong. I worked in Mining for 36 years. I should be a Labour fan through and through. Yet for all of my years I have been a floating voter. This current crop of Labour MPs is quite frankly for me unelectable. My trouble with Corbyn is he cannot sort out his own party yet feels, no believes he is the answer to all our prayers and problems. He is in my top ten of worst politicians of all time. I don't think I have met anyone who has ever seen our country in such a political mess. Labour should be smashing this government. But it has to try and build fragile pacts with other party's far left and right wing MPs to try to defeat a government. Don't even get me started on Diane Abbott, apparently she wants us to stop buying off Amazon til the fires are put out. I heard Corbyn told her the other day that crocodiles grow up to 15 feet. She replied she had only seen one with 4 feet.
I always try to have an open mind and am open to what the appeal of Corbyn is but I just don't see it.
Don't get me wrong it's not just Corbyn I dislike. I think for far to long the electorate, and I mean voters of labour, Tory, SNP, remainers, leavers, etc etc have been treated like bloody idiots for far to long. I think many seasoned MPs are in for a shock in the next election.
 Our latest Mayoral elections booted out our Independant Mayor by two votes, she lost to the third choice Labour candidate. She has now been choosen as the Brexit candidate for the next election. WT bloody hell is that all about. An ex Tory member, independant Mayor, booted out by Mansfield is chosen as a candidate. The Brexit party has lost my vote.


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## Hitdaball (Aug 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Corbyn is a man who has no principles in his quest to install his Neo-Marxist ideals into government. As a lifelong eurosceptic he now bins his long held views on the EU to grab a last chance as an aging politician to lever himself into No 10, then incorporate an extreme socialist program of state control and policies that will stifle enterprise and encourage more and more control over peoples lives, such governments have never succeeded and always reduce personal freedoms in their quest for total state control.
		
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And for me thereâ€™s the rub.  

Itâ€™s ok in the echo chamber for you to compare Corbyn to say Stalin( I guess?),  but when Kellfire compares BoJo to Hitler you say he is mad and people say take it back. 

Looking to the Nordics should provide many examples of socialist policies making countries better for the general population but we still fear of intervention in the market, because very rich politicians tell us it is bad.  There is a great deal of difference between Malmo and Moscow.


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## Foxholer (Aug 30, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			And for me thereâ€™s the rub.

Itâ€™s ok in the echo chamber for you to compare Corbyn to say Stalin( I guess?),  but when Kellfire compares BoJo to Hitler you say he is mad and people say take it back.

Looking to the Nordics should provide many examples of socialist policies making countries better for the general population but we still fear of intervention in the market, because very rich politicians tell us it is bad.  There is a great deal of difference between Malmo and Moscow.
		
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Hitdaball said:



			And for me thereâ€™s the rub.

Itâ€™s ok in the echo chamber for you to compare Corbyn to say Stalin( I guess?),  but when Kellfire compares BoJo to Hitler you say he is mad and people say take it back.

Looking to the Nordics should provide many examples of socialist policies making countries better for the general population but we still fear of intervention in the market, because very rich politicians tell us it is bad.  There is a great deal of difference between Malmo and Moscow.
		
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Or Manchester for that matter!

To me, it's simply that Nordic politics is generally 'centrist', while Moscow is definitely extreme! Tories have generally successfully described Labour as 'extreme', and that's especially easy currently. Tories have generally avoided being 'accused' of being too right-wing (save the occasional proof of Godwins Law on here) mainly, imo, because they pitch themselves/policies pretty much where the British people generally aspire to.

I use a clockface (showing parties leanings as left or right of 12 o'clock) to describe positions...Nordic (and Kiwi) are about 5 to 1 (or 5 past 11); UK about 8 mins past 10; US about 10 past 3! Btw. Itaiy's clock is broken!


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The perogueing is legal but used disingenuously is immoral. Proving that is impossible. *All the MP's, and Bercow, can do now is hope to take control of parliament in the few days they have available *and, as they did with May, amend the date for Brexit. The problem with that is just who is going to go to the EU and ask for that extension? Can parliament instruct the PM to ask for the extension? Was May forced to ask or was it what she wanted anyway? And what will the EU's response be?

If parliament can't force through the amendment, does it have time for a No Confidence vote? And if it does, and Boris runs down the clock for 13 of the 14 days he has to respond to the No Confidence vote is there still enough time to fit in an election AND the incoming govt stop Brexit?
		
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Maybe if they'd extracted their collective thumb from their collective bum and used some of the days they previously had there wouldn't be an issue Brian.  I mean, they've only had about 1,000 days to sort this out and they're now whining about losing how many?  

The one they have conclusively achieved is rto emove from me any lingering vestige of respect that I might have had for politicians.  I've dealt with no shortage of scrotes in my time and I'm beginning to think every one of them had more principles than this rabble.


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## Old Skier (Aug 31, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			And for me thereâ€™s the rub. 

Itâ€™s ok in the echo chamber for you to compare Corbyn to say Stalin( I guess?),  but when Kellfire compares BoJo to Hitler you say he is mad and people say take it back.

Looking to the Nordics should provide many examples of socialist policies making countries better for the general population but we still fear of intervention in the market, because very rich politicians tell us it is bad.  There is a great deal of difference between Malmo and Moscow.
		
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The difference is that Corbyn is a stated Marxist as are those closed to him. Never heard anyone in the Tory Party express their desire to be a a far right extremist.


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## Hitdaball (Aug 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The difference is that Corbyn is a stated Marxist as are those closed to him. Never heard anyone in the Tory Party express their desire to be a a far right extremist.
		
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It would be hard to know what Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson politics are to a large extent - they are whatever they need to be at any point in time to gain power. He is man of no enduring principles.

I imagine if the NHS didnâ€™t exist now, in the current political climate some of you folks would be calling someone like Bevan a communist - Pursuing hard left policies like universal health care free at the point of use in a nationalised institution.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2019)

Seven Tory ministers tell us how dishonest and undemocratic proroguing parliament for political gain is.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1167528494303252480


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## patricks148 (Aug 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Corbyn is a man who has no principles in his quest to install his Neo-Marxist ideals into government. As a lifelong eurosceptic he now bins his long held views on the EU to grab a last chance as an aging politician to lever himself into No 10, then incorporate an extreme socialist program of state control and policies that will stifle enterprise and encourage more and more control over peoples lives, such governments have never succeeded and always reduce personal freedoms in their quest for total state control.
		
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yes what a dispicable man, how dare he want to improve the lives of people other than the rich, get hundreds of thousands out of having to use food banks, and eradicate poverty. have a decent NHS that is adq funded and not sold off for profit... what a scumbag


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## Tashyboy (Aug 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			yes what a dispicable man, how dare he want to improve the lives of people other than the rich, get hundreds of thousands out of having to use food banks, and eradicate poverty. have a decent NHS that is adq funded and not sold off for profit... what a scumbag

Click to expand...

Lets not mention holding hands with terrorists.


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## patricks148 (Aug 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Lets not mention holding hands with terrorists.
		
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i agree, esp selling arms to them and giving them state visits


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## Old Skier (Aug 31, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			I imagine if the NHS didnâ€™t exist now, in the current political climate some of you folks would be calling someone like Bevan a communist - Pursuing hard left policies like universal health care free at the point of use in a nationalised institution.
		
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That's quite a jump and assumption.


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## Hitdaball (Aug 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			That's quite a jump and assumption.
		
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You donâ€™t seem to be fans of nationalised industry and socialism.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 31, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			You donâ€™t seem to be fans of nationalised industry and socialism.
		
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The gift that keeps on giving. Do you know Labour shut more pits than the Tories. Do you know they allowed the theft of miners pensions to continue.


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## Old Skier (Aug 31, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			You donâ€™t seem to be fans of nationalised industry and socialism.
		
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I'm not keen on the way the Labour Party is going at the moment true but how you can assume what I am or am not a fan off is beyond me.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			And for me thereâ€™s the rub.

Itâ€™s ok in the echo chamber for you to compare Corbyn to say Stalin( I guess?),  but when Kellfire compares BoJo to Hitler you say he is mad and people say take it back.

Looking to the Nordics should provide many examples of socialist policies making countries better for the general population but we still fear of intervention in the market, because very rich politicians tell us it is bad.  There is a great deal of difference between Malmo and Moscow.
		
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Where did I compare Corbyn to Stalin, please dont put words into my mouth.
I am giving an opinion on the type of far left politics that Corbyn promotes not the type that builds gulags and murders millions of innocent people, thats not even Socialist policies, its genocide perpetrated by insane dictators and no different to what Hitler and his followers did.    #Kelfire was making a direct comparison between Boris Johnsons government and Adolf Hitlers third reich, if you wish to defend that comparison as reasonable then you also need to take a long look at yourself and really consider what you are saying and how disingenuous it is.

The Nordic political system is centre left and based on free market politics, very similar to the Social Democrat type found in countries like Germany.  Absolutely nothing like the politics of Corbyn and McDonnell.


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## patricks148 (Aug 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			The gift that keeps on giving. Do you know Labour shut more pits than the Tories. Do you know they allowed the theft of miners pensions to continue.
		
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of course they did and the rest of British Indusry no doubt,not to mention sold all the council houses off too with not a drop going to the councils that built them courseing housing shortages for the last 30 years.

Thats why the miners went on strike was it, against Labour?

i suppose it was also Labour that sold of all the Nationalised industies for F all on the stock market well under what they were worth, that worked out well didn't it Trains, Water, etc, etc

its all Labours fault, no wonder you call yourself a foating voter....


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			yes what a dispicable man, how dare he want to improve the lives of people other than the rich, get hundreds of thousands out of having to use food banks, and eradicate poverty. have a decent NHS that is adq funded and not sold off for profit... what a scumbag

Click to expand...

To distribute wealth you first have to earn it. Maybe you can educate me on how Corbyn's measures (that all previous socialist governments failed with) will remove poverty, food banks and provide a decent National Health.  Wait a minute, I guess the answer will be more tax, more borrowing and more nationalisation ðŸ™„ðŸš®


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			of course they did and the rest of British Indusry no doubt,not to mention sold all the council houses off too with not a drop going to the councils that built them courseing housing shortages for the last 30 years.

Thats why the miners went on strike was it, against Labour?

i suppose it was also Labour that sold of all the Nationalised industies for F all on the stock market well under what they were worth, that worked out well didn't it Trains, Water, etc, etc

its all Labours fault, no wonder you call yourself a foating voter....
		
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Labour did sell council houses and all the proceeds of council house sales did go to local authorities.


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## Hobbit (Aug 31, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			You donâ€™t seem to be fans of nationalised industry and socialism.
		
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Personally, I believe every country should have a balance of nationalised and public owned. Police, Fire, Ambulance, prison service, water, electric, and gas + I dare say a few I've missed should be nationalised. They are essential services and no way should they be in someone else's pocket. I'd also like to see far stricter controls on private landlords - in the main, renters are at the lower end of earners and struggle with the ridiculous rents for many poor properties.

As for socialism; define it accurately. My version of socialism will probably be different to yours, and yours different to the next man's. What we will probably agree on is that the Tories version of austerity was too deep and went on for far too long. That said, in fairness, the UK's debt ratio wasn't far behind Greece's, and was only 'saved' by the ability to service that debt. Something did need doing, and what was started was right, it just bit too deep.

But a look at Tony Blair's Labour and all their sell off's will tell you that Labour sold the family jewels, and then borrowed loads and still left the UK in a mess.


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## User62651 (Aug 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Personally, I believe every country should have a balance of nationalised and public owned. Police, Fire, Ambulance, prison service, water, electric, and gas + I dare say a few I've missed should be nationalised. They are essential services and no way should they be in someone else's pocket. I'd also like to see far stricter controls on private landlords - in the main, renters are at the lower end of earners and struggle with the ridiculous rents for many poor properties.

As for socialism; define it accurately. My version of socialism will probably be different to yours, and yours different to the next man's. What we will probably agree on is that the Tories version of austerity was too deep and went on for far too long. That said, in fairness, the UK's debt ratio wasn't far behind Greece's, and was only 'saved' by the ability to service that debt. Something did need doing, and what was started was right, it just bit too deep.

But a look at Tony Blair's Labour and all their sell off's will tell you that Labour sold the family jewels, and then borrowed loads and still left the UK in a mess.
		
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Blair wasn't true Labour, champagne socialist but he was electable, Labour have to decide if they want to be a protest party or become electable again but with JC in charge it just won't happen.
Boris and Cummings probably can't believe their luck, Lib Dems too.


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## Hobbit (Aug 31, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Blair wasn't true Labour, champagne socialist but he was electable, Labour have to decide if they want to be a protest party or become electable again but with JC in charge it just won't happen.
Boris and Cummings probably can't believe their luck, Lib Dems too.
		
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Blair was Labour. The vast majority of the party then was that version of Labour. Amazing how many Labour supporters try and distance themselves from those days. I voted for them then, and would happily vote for a centre left Labour again. The fact that they were more towards the centre appealed to those less extreme than right or left.


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## patricks148 (Aug 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			To distribute wealth you first have to earn it. Maybe you can educate me on how Corbyn's measures (that all previous socialist governments failed with) will remove poverty, food banks and provide a decent National Health.  Wait a minute, I guess the answer will be more tax, more borrowing and more nationalisation ðŸ™„ðŸš®
		
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what like boris's magic money tree?

you are obv happy to have borrowing to fund tax cuts though?

who sold everything off for Fall in the first place?


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## patricks148 (Aug 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Labour did sell council houses and all the proceeds of council house sales did go to local authorities.
		
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not all the ones the Tories sold off though.... if they had tried to buy them back that would have been wrong


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## patricks148 (Aug 31, 2019)

worrying thing is the Tories managed to kill of the unions TAIP killing workers rights, then we has the EU, and what do they want to do now??? 

you guessed it


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## Parsaregood (Aug 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			yes what a dispicable man, how dare he want to improve the lives of people other than the rich, get hundreds of thousands out of having to use food banks, and eradicate poverty. have a decent NHS that is adq funded and not sold off for profit... what a scumbag

Click to expand...

You get what you work for, poverty will never be eradicated and you are a fool to think it can be. The NHS as it stands doesn't work. Too many people in the country take it as a given right to have things which in other countries you have to work for, no wonder the country is such a mess. Corbyn will never be PM and labour will never have a chance with him in charge.


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## Parsaregood (Aug 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			not all the ones the Tories sold off though.... if they had tried to buy them back that would have been wrong
		
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How many people did the right to buy policy get on the property ladder ? Hundreds of thousands of people who would otherwise not have been able to buy could now afford to buy their own home, so this policy helped many people. Of course the council have to keep up with local demand but it was not a bad policy


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## drdel (Aug 31, 2019)

So with the help of extremists in 'Momentum' Mr Corbyn wants everyone on the streets to protest against the rich and the anti-democratic establishment's actions from a personal basis as a millionaire with a new found desire to thwart a democratic referendum and laws he voted for in order to make himself PM


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## spongebob59 (Aug 31, 2019)

Too right ðŸ‘

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/...-next-election/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


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## woody69 (Aug 31, 2019)

Why do some of you think leaving on no deal is a good idea?


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## spongebob59 (Aug 31, 2019)

At the moment having no deal on the table seems to be the only way we'll get any sort of negotiated deal.
No deal is both sides default position.


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## Parsaregood (Aug 31, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Why do some of you think leaving on no deal is a good idea?
		
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Why is it not a good idea ? We can then sort out our own deals with countries outside the EU which at the moment we cannot do. This could lead to cheaper products for UK consumers and also open up potential new markets for UK companies. There all all sorts of other things of course like getting back control of our fishing waters, control of our laws and not having to answer to European courts. At the minute, because of the mess Theresa May left us in, a clean brexit is the only true form of brexit as the existing deal, even being amended, is just not acceptable


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2019)

Best protest poster so far this weekend goes to Dundee,

'A Parcel of Prorogues in a Nation'


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## Old Skier (Aug 31, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Why do some of you think leaving on no deal is a good idea?
		
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Because some of us dont get mixed up about the withdrawal agreement and deals that can be made when we actually leave.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2019)

drdel said:



			So with the help of extremists in 'Momentum' Mr Corbyn wants everyone on the streets to protest against the rich and the anti-democratic establishment's actions from a personal basis as a millionaire with a new found desire to thwart a democratic referendum and laws he voted for in order to make himself PM
		
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I thought that anyone who owned a hoose in central London was a millionaire so Corbyn must be just one of the people.


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## patricks148 (Aug 31, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			How many people did the right to buy policy get on the property ladder ? Hundreds of thousands of people who would otherwise not have been able to buy could now afford to buy their own home, so this policy helped many people. Of course the council have to keep up with local demand but it was not a bad policy
		
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great if you got a house at a steal, not so great if you are on a waiting list with no chance of every getting a roof over your head. when all the councils that built them were then denied the cash from the sale of said cheap houses.... great policy why do you think none of any significant number have been built in the last 30 years, so its just coincidence that there is a massive house shortage, but i'm all right jack maggie would be proud of you

as for poverty  its increased in the last 20 years, you may not iradicate it, but in this day and age, it shouldn't be on the increase we didnt have the number of people using food banks we have now and return of diseases that went with poverty on the increase , those that we had iractcated in the 50'60


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Why is it not a good idea ? We can then sort out our own deals with countries outside the EU which at the moment we cannot do. This *could *lead to cheaper products for UK consumers and also open up potential new markets for UK companies. There all all sorts of other things of course like getting back control of our fishing waters, control of our laws and not having to answer to European courts. At the minute, because of the mess Theresa May left us in, a clean brexit is the only true form of brexit as the existing deal, even being amended, is just not acceptable
		
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â€œCouldâ€ is there appropriate word - we could end up with deals that mean we have to pay more 

And which countries will we be looking to deal with considering the biggest and closest trading block for us that gives us the best benefit is the EU


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 31, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			How many people did the right to buy policy get on the property ladder ? Hundreds of thousands of people who would otherwise not have been able to buy could now afford to buy their own home, so this policy helped many people. Of course the council have to keep up with local demand but it was not a bad policy
		
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Should never have happened. We needed to keep those housing estates so all the degenerates were in one place.
Now we have the social experiment of putting social housing amongst those who could and can afford to buy their own.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



*great if you got a house at a steal,* not so great if you are on a waiting list with no chance of every getting a roof over your head. when all the councils that built them were then denied the cash from the sale of said cheap houses.... great policy why do you think none of any significant number have been built in the last 30 years, so its just coincidence that there is a massive house shortage, but *i'm all right jack* maggie would be proud of you

as for poverty  its increased in the last 20 years, you may not iradicate it, but in this day and age, it shouldn't be on the increase we didnt have the number of people using food banks we have now and return of diseases that went with poverty on the increase , those that we had iractcated in the 50'60
		
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Yup. Dad bought our council house for Â£11K. When he sold it for Â£85k we left docklands and moved somewhere decent. God bless you Maggie!ðŸ˜ðŸ˜


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## IanM (Aug 31, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Why do some of you think leaving on no deal is a good idea?
		
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Actually, ask the CEOs of Mercedes and BMW why they think it is a bad idea.

......Mrs May was colluding with the EU to keep us in.  

Boris has stirred it all up.  And this week I learned on here that closing parliament for 3 days is the same as gasing 6 million jews.

Nice


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## User62651 (Aug 31, 2019)

IanM said:



			Actually, ask the CEOs of Mercedes and BMW why they think it is a bad idea.

......Mrs May was colluding with the EU to keep us in. 

Boris has stirred it all up.  And this week I learned on here that closing parliament for 3 days is the same as gasing 6 million jews.

Nice
		
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Going by that 3 days logic you must be age 9?


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## Parsaregood (Aug 31, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			â€œCouldâ€ is there appropriate word - we could end up with deals that mean we have to pay more 

And which countries will we be looking to deal with considering the biggest and closest trading block for us that gives us the best benefit is the EU
		
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The biggest and closest trading block to us is one which seeks to block making deals outside it and put high tariffs on more competitive countries. None of the leaders of the EU are elected, it now has it's own anthem and wants to have it's own armed forces. I think we have seen this type of organisation before in the not too distant past.


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## Parsaregood (Aug 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			great if you got a house at a steal, not so great if you are on a waiting list with no chance of every getting a roof over your head. when all the councils that built them were then denied the cash from the sale of said cheap houses.... great policy why do you think none of any significant number have been built in the last 30 years, so its just coincidence that there is a massive house shortage, but i'm all right jack maggie would be proud of you

as for poverty  its increased in the last 20 years, you may not iradicate it, but in this day and age, it shouldn't be on the increase we didnt have the number of people using food banks we have now and return of diseases that went with poverty on the increase , those that we had iractcated in the 50'60
		
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So what is your answer ? For the state to control everything ? Take control of the railways, the NHS  , build houses owned by the state. So everyone can be equal and nobody can have the chance to make something of themselves. Nobody wants communism


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 31, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			The biggest and closest trading block to us is one which seeks to *block making deals outside it *and put high tariffs on more competitive countries. None of the leaders of the EU are elected, it now has it's own anthem and wants to have it's own armed forces. I think we have seen this type of organisation before in the not too distant past.
		
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Yet we already have trade deals outside EU ðŸ™„

We didnâ€™t elect Boris Johnson as our leader


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## IanM (Aug 31, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			. Nobody wants communism
		
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That's exactly what the Leader of the Opposition wants


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## Parsaregood (Aug 31, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet we already have trade deals outside EU ðŸ™„

We didnâ€™t elect Boris Johnson as our leader
		
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What deals do we have with countries outside the EU which are independent of the EU ?


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## robinthehood (Aug 31, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			The biggest and closest trading block to us is one which seeks to block making deals outside it and put high tariffs on more competitive countries. None of the leaders of the EU are elected, it now has it's own anthem and wants to have it's own armed forces. I think we have seen this type of organisation before in the not too distant past.
		
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What's wrong with an anthem? F1 has one , the UCL has one .


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## Parsaregood (Aug 31, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What's wrong with an anthem? F1 has one , the UCL has one .
		
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Well quite frankly I dont wish to stand for an anthem of an undemocratic organisation full of unelected beaurocrats. I dont feel European, I'm British, we already have an anthem, we dont need another


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## Tashyboy (Aug 31, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			of course they did and the rest of British Indusry no doubt,not to mention sold all the council houses off too with not a drop going to the councils that built them courseing housing shortages for the last 30 years.

Thats why the miners went on strike was it, against Labour?

i suppose it was also Labour that sold of all the Nationalised industies for F all on the stock market well under what they were worth, that worked out well didn't it Trains, Water, etc, etc

its all Labours fault, no wonder you call yourself a foating voter....
		
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Not a drop went to councils ðŸ¤” am sure that houses were sold for half price, with 25% went to local council. Still not right in my eyes. But who are you blaming Tories, thatcher or the people that bought them. 

Here's a question for the Labour supporters. Quite frankly I think Corbyn is a grade one that. I and millions of others are desperate for an opposition that can deafeat this shower of shit government we have at the moment. DO YOU THINK CORBYN IS THAT MAN TO DEFEAT THIS GOVERNMENT. IS HE HONESTLY THE BEST THAT LABOUR HAVE.


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## robinthehood (Aug 31, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Well quite frankly I dont wish to stand for an anthem of an undemocratic organisation full of unelected beaurocrats. I dont feel European, I'm British, we already have an anthem, we dont need another
		
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We don't have to stand for the EU anthem , tbf I don't know what it sounds like. I'm not British, I'm English if asked.


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## JamesR (Aug 31, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			I think we have seen this type of organisation before in the not too distant past.
		
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Are they the ones who destroyed Alderon with their new space station, back in 1977 ?


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## Parsaregood (Aug 31, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			We don't have to stand for the EU anthem , tbf I don't know what it sounds like. I'm not British, I'm English if asked.
		
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Fair enough, the whole European parliament were asked to stand for the anthem on  the first day back in Brussels?


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## Parsaregood (Aug 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Are they the ones who destroyed Alderon with their new space station, back in 1977 ?
		
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Not too dissimilar ðŸ˜‚


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## JamesR (Aug 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Do you know they allowed the theft of miners pensions to continue.
		
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I doubt anyone cares about minerâ€™s pension schemes.
After all, they are always going on about their extravagant holidaysðŸ˜¢


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## JamesR (Aug 31, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Not too dissimilar ðŸ˜‚
		
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Christ, weâ€™ve gone a step beyond Godwinâ€™s law...Iâ€™m gonna call if Tarkins law (after the Grand Moff himself )


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Well quite frankly I dont wish to stand for an anthem of an undemocratic organisation full of unelected beaurocrats. I dont feel European, I'm British, we already have an anthem, we dont need another
		
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Er. What 'unelected' beaurocratics are you refering to? Apart from a couple of dozen 'delegates' appointed by member states and about 20k 'civil servants' (cf 400k UK civil servants), all are elected. this 'unelected beaurocrats' description of those at the top of the EU is a highly successful myth!


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



*Not a drop went to councils* ðŸ¤” am sure that houses were sold for half price, with *25% went to local council....*

Click to expand...

WTF? You contradict yourself within a dozen words!


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## Tashyboy (Aug 31, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			WTF? You contradict yourself within a dozen words!
		
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How do you contradict when you quote that someone says councils got nowt when they actually did. The next sentence i wrote said i disagreed with it ( selling off houses) as-well. Did you â€œblack outâ€ part way through the post.


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## Hobbit (Aug 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Here's a question for the Labour supporters. Quite frankly I think Corbyn is a grade one that. I and millions of others are desperate for an opposition that can deafeat this shower of shit government we have at the moment. DO YOU THINK CORBYN IS THAT MAN TO DEFEAT THIS GOVERNMENT. IS HE HONESTLY THE BEST THAT LABOUR HAVE.
		
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But after Corbyn, who would you choose? I agree he isn't PM material, and of his acolytes Starmer might one day make a decent politician. But who from any party would you choose? Which party could put a half decent cabinet together?

One thing this last 3 years has shown is that out of over 600 politicians, of which the cream of those parties have reached the top, who is good enough to govern?


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## Tashyboy (Aug 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But after Corbyn, who would you choose? I agree he isn't PM material, and of his acolytes Starmer might one day make a decent politician. But who from any party would you choose? Which party could put a half decent cabinet together?

One thing this last 3 years has shown is that out of over 600 politicians, of which the cream of those parties have reached the top, who is good enough to govern?
		
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And this me good man Hobbit is exactly what i am trying to say. Yet questions re Corbyns credentials always end up with the same old torys are no better response.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			How do you contradict when you quote that someone says councils got nowt when they actually did. The next sentence i wrote said i disagreed with it ( selling off houses) as-well. Did you â€œblack outâ€ part way through the post.
		
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Doh! Apologies! I simply failed to follow your dodgy written expression!


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## Tashyboy (Aug 31, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Doh! Apologies! I simply failed to follow your dodgy written expression!
		
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Your not the first ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜


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## JamesR (Aug 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But after Corbyn, who would you choose? I agree he isn't PM material, and of his acolytes Starmer might one day make a decent politician. But who from any party would you choose? Which party could put a half decent cabinet together?

One thing this last 3 years has shown is that out of over 600 politicians, of which the cream of those parties have reached the top, who is good enough to govern?
		
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We need a right wing, socialist, liberal - are there any good ones knocking about?


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## Paperboy (Aug 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But after Corbyn, who would you choose? I agree he isn't PM material, and of his acolytes Starmer might one day make a decent politician. But who from any party would you choose? Which party could put a half decent cabinet together?

One thing this last 3 years has shown is that out of over 600 politicians, of which the cream of those parties have reached the top, who is good enough to govern?
		
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Brian basically the wrong brother got the job! After his brother stabbed him in the back! Ed Miliband is basically earning money from a charity, but he would make a good opposition leader imo.


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## Hobbit (Aug 31, 2019)

Paperboy said:



			Brian basically the wrong brother got the job! After his brother stabbed him in the back! Ed Miliband is basically earning money from a charity, but he would make a good opposition leader imo.
		
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I agree, the wrong man got the job, but the Labour Party has evolved since then into something that will take a good while to change. There's a huge Momentum network to dismantle before Ed could make a comeback. And even if he did, who is there of quality to support him? Hilary Benn ++


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## Paperboy (Aug 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree, the wrong man got the job, but the Labour Party has evolved since then into something that will take a good while to change. There's a huge Momentum network to dismantle before Ed could make a comeback. And even if he did, who is there of quality to support him? Hilary Benn ++
		
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All I know Brian is that I voted Tory just because of this, who would really vote for a party where a brother stabbed his brother in the back IMO!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			So what is your answer ? For the state to control everything ? Take control of the railways, the NHS  , build houses owned by the state. So everyone can be equal and nobody can have the chance to make something of themselves. Nobody wants communism
		
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Strange that two of the happiest developed countries seem to be Denmark and Norway who have political systems that seem to be totally different from UK [England] and the USA.


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## Pathetic Shark (Sep 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Christ, weâ€™ve gone a step beyond Godwinâ€™s law...Iâ€™m gonna call if Tarkins law (after the Grand Moff himself )
		
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I find your lack of faith disturbing (tries Force choke hold)


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet we already have trade deals outside EU ðŸ™„

We didnâ€™t elect Boris Johnson as our leader
		
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He got my vote for PM.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 1, 2019)

If we are to base our vote on the quality of a party's leader then I suggest no votes would be cast... Ain't a decent one out there currently...


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## drdel (Sep 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet we already have trade deals outside EU ðŸ™„

*We didnâ€™t elect *Boris Johnson as our leader
		
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Did 'we' vote for the Labour leader or Liberal leader ?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 1, 2019)

Sheer delusion :


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## drdel (Sep 1, 2019)

Barneir reportedly states he will not remove/change the backstop and the UK must sign the WA.

Has he not registered that Parliament rejected the WA on 3 occasions and the Speaker refused its 4th presentation.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 1, 2019)

So get an extension - to do what ????
have another referendum but ignore results of you don't like it.
if all else fails just cancel everything.


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## patricks148 (Sep 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			Did 'we' vote for the Labour leader or Liberal leader ?
		
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neither of thise leaders are PM though are they


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			Barneir reportedly states he will not remove/change the backstop and the UK must sign the WA.

Has he not registered that Parliament rejected the WA on 3 occasions and the Speaker refused its 4th presentation.
		
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Have you not registered that the EU have already struck a deal with this government.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 1, 2019)

Labour joins in the fun :


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## drdel (Sep 1, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Labour joins in the fun :







Click to expand...


Well I'm glad Starmer has made it clear!


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## woody69 (Sep 1, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Why is it not a good idea ? We can then sort out our own deals with countries outside the EU which at the moment we cannot do. This could lead to cheaper products for UK consumers and also open up potential new markets for UK companies. There all all sorts of other things of course like getting back control of our fishing waters, control of our laws and not having to answer to European courts. At the minute, because of the mess Theresa May left us in, a clean brexit is the only true form of brexit as the existing deal, even being amended, is just not acceptable
		
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Well we genuinely don't know how bad no deal will be, but do you think it will go better or worse than their own official analysis in Operation Yellowhamer - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ked-operation-yellowhammer-document-797qxkrcm, which was produced in August, that is clearly marked as a base scenario (not worst case), despite Gove, Cummings and Boris lies?

I'm still confused by the whole "taking back control". I'm still not sure what laws we were forced to take that adversely affect us. Of the 1000s of laws passed, I'm pretty sure there was something like 70 odd we were forced to implement and all of them are actual improvements to us such as clean beaches etc and the reason we voted against them was due to costs etc. 

With regards to getting deals outside of the the EU, well again that remains to be seen, but due to economies of scale I fail to see how they will be better deals? I'd be interested to hear your theories on that. We are also going to need to deal with our closest neighbours. Do people honestly think that we will be able to get a better deal than the one we already have whilst being a member? I just don't see how that is possible.

My final point i just want to add is the WA negotiated by May simply comes down to the red lines as outlined by the UK Government. I am sure you have seen the graphic, but I'll paste it in again. By choosing to leave both the CU and the SM were government decisions. I assume to placate the hard brexiteers of the Tory party. That decision does not have a majority in Parliament or with the public.


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Have you not registered that the EU have already struck a deal with this government.
		
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Twaddle!


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Why do some of you think leaving on no deal is a good idea?
		
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There's are huge downside to No Deal! But it seems to be the only way to actually Leave. So, for that reason alone, I'm content to lrsvr eith 'No Deal'.

The WA that was negotiated is the classic 'Bad Deal' that May described 'No Deal' to be better than! Apologies for the lousy phrasing!

There is nothing that actually approaches a 'deal' in the WA. From memory, its ONLY purpose is to establish a border between the EU and UK. All the other areas of a 'deal' are still to be negotiated - and this will take a very long time. There'll be no hurry on the EU's part! And it's those areas that will affect the UK-EU relationship the most - Trade, Movement of people, relationships for the likes of Police, Intelligence, Industrial and Scientific research, Standards etc. Presumably, there will have been a certain amount of preliminary work done, but most will have to be done after Brexit and UK will, in many/most cases, will be treated no different to any other non-EU country, so will be 'poorer' for it. And that's without considering Trade, which will be the most visible and important area of the post-Brexit relationship.

And pretty much the same applies to deals with non-EU contries, many of which currently use UK primarily as the initial point of entry to EU.


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## robinthehood (Sep 1, 2019)

Once we've taken back control what are everyone's top 10 laws that the EU foisted upon us that they want to see repealed?


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## Hobbit (Sep 1, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Well we genuinely don't know how bad no deal will be, but do you think it will go better or worse than their own official analysis in Operation Yellowhamer - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ked-operation-yellowhammer-document-797qxkrcm, which was produced in August, that is clearly marked as a base scenario (not worst case), despite Gove, Cummings and Boris lies?

I'm still confused by the whole "taking back control". I'm still not sure what laws we were forced to take that adversely affect us. Of the 1000s of laws passed, I'm pretty sure there was something like 70 odd we were forced to implement and all of them are actual improvements to us such as clean beaches etc and the reason we voted against them was due to costs etc.

With regards to getting deals outside of the the EU, well again that remains to be seen, but due to economies of scale I fail to see how they will be better deals? I'd be interested to hear your theories on that. We are also going to need to deal with our closest neighbours. Do people honestly think that we will be able to get a better deal than the one we already have whilst being a member? I just don't see how that is possible.

My final point i just want to add is the WA negotiated by May simply comes down to the red lines as outlined by the UK Government. I am sure you have seen the graphic, but I'll paste it in again. By choosing to leave both the CU and the SM were government decisions. I assume to placate the hard brexiteers of the Tory party. That decision does not have a majority in Parliament or with the public.






Click to expand...

Some good points but you really, really, really spoilt it with your comment about the WA simply comes down to the UKâ€™s own red lines.

First of all, go and read it. Seriously, if you want your comments to be taken seriously, go and read it.

I have, and some of it several times.

The first half of it is very fair and equitable. The rest, especially the bit around agriculture, is appalling. The short version on agri; the U.K. will not be able to set itâ€™s own tariffs and quotas without reference to an â€œindependentâ€ (hahahaha) monitoring group that reports back to the EU. If the tariffs and quotas offered to a non-EU country are better than those offered to the EU, the U.K. is fined. And the final adjudicator will be the ECJ..... that doesnâ€™t come close to a red line the U.K. has insisted on does it?


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## woody69 (Sep 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Some good points but you really, really, really spoilt it with your comment about the WA simply comes down to the UKâ€™s own red lines.

First of all, go and read it. Seriously, if you want your comments to be taken seriously, go and read it.

I have, and some of it several times.

The first half of it is very fair and equitable. The rest, especially the bit around agriculture, is appalling. The short version on agri; the U.K. will not be able to set itâ€™s own tariffs and quotas without reference to an â€œindependentâ€ (hahahaha) monitoring group that reports back to the EU. If the tariffs and quotas offered to a non-EU country are better than those offered to the EU, the U.K. is fined. And the final adjudicator will be the ECJ..... that doesnâ€™t come close to a red line the U.K. has insisted on does it?
		
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The agreement relating to agriculture as part of the WA is because during the transition period the UK is bound by the obligations from all EU international agreements (as EU international agreements are part of the EU acquis). This guarantees integrity and homogeneity of the single market and the customs union and we want to leave them. Why should we expect the EU to be ok with the UK setting lower tariffs with a nation that currently has an agreement with the EU?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			neither of thise leaders are PM though are they
		
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Gordon Brown was and was never voted as prime minister. Its a silly argument though, we all know that the public doesn't vote for a prime minister so why even bother to say it.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Once we've taken back control what are everyone's top 10 laws that the EU foisted upon us that they want to see repealed?
		
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No1. The UK is free to set its own laws and the ECJ will have no jurisdiction over them.


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## Kellfire (Sep 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Gordon Brown was and was never voted as prime minister. Its a silly argument though, we all know that the public doesn't vote for a prime minister so why even bother to say it.
		
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Itâ€™s sort of like the way we all know the Brexit vote wasnâ€™t legally binding but still Brexiteers are saying it isnâ€™t democracy if it doesnâ€™t happen.

Ah, semantics. Sometimes theyâ€™re not your friend.


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## Hobbit (Sep 1, 2019)

woody69 said:



			The agreement relating to agriculture as part of the WA is because during the transition period the UK is bound by the obligations from all EU international agreements (as EU international agreements are part of the EU acquis). This guarantees integrity and homogeneity of the single market and the customs union and we want to leave them. Why should we expect the EU to be ok with the UK setting lower tariffs with a nation that currently has an agreement with the EU?
		
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But within the doc, and I've just looked, the EU continues to be the regulating authority, till Dec 2024, 4 years after transition, for any subsidies the UK decides to provide for agriculture. And that any payments paid by the UK to the EU during the implementation period then reduce, not end, on a sliding scale from 2020 to 2028, when they finally end. The UK is allowed to object to anything imposed on the UK during that period, as an equal member to the joint agreement, but why is the ECJ the arbitrator? Surely it should be an international court?

I fully appreciate the EU might not be happy with the UK setting its own pricing and tariffs but, quite frankly, since when does someone let a competitor set its pricing?


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## robinthehood (Sep 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No1. The UK is free to set its own laws and the ECJ will have no jurisdiction over them.
		
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Yeah great, but do you have an answer to the question.
Top 10 laws.....


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## Tashyboy (Sep 1, 2019)

I


robinthehood said:



			Once we've taken back control what are everyone's top 10 laws that the EU foisted upon us that they want to see repealed?
		
Click to expand...

 I think if the migration/immigration had been sorted out years ago we wouldn't be leaving. I would suggest looking at that first.


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## Kellfire (Sep 1, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I

I think if the migration/immigration had been sorted out years ago we wouldn't be leaving. I would suggest looking at that first.
		
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What will change?

It was the UKâ€™s choice not to implement tighter immigration controls. We could have under EU law but didnâ€™t. 

So thatâ€™s not a valid answer to the question.

Can you pick another?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Well we genuinely don't know how bad no deal will be, but do you think it will go better or worse than their own official analysis in Operation Yellowhamer - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ked-operation-yellowhammer-document-797qxkrcm, which was produced in August, that is clearly marked as a base scenario (not worst case), despite Gove, Cummings and Boris lies?

I'm still confused by the whole "taking back control". I'm still not sure what laws we were forced to take that adversely affect us. Of the 1000s of laws passed, I'm pretty sure there was something like 70 odd we were forced to implement and all of them are actual improvements to us such as clean beaches etc and the reason we voted against them was due to costs etc.

With regards to getting deals outside of the the EU, well again that remains to be seen, but due to economies of scale I fail to see how they will be better deals? I'd be interested to hear your theories on that. We are also going to need to deal with our closest neighbours. Do people honestly think that we will be able to get a better deal than the one we already have whilst being a member? I just don't see how that is possible.

My final point i just want to add is the WA negotiated by May simply comes down to the red lines as outlined by the UK Government. I am sure you have seen the graphic, but I'll paste it in again. By choosing to leave both the CU and the SM were government decisions. I assume to placate the hard brexiteers of the Tory party. That decision does not have a majority in Parliament or with the public.






Click to expand...

This has been done to death so whats the point of dragging it out again. You and many others are content with EU membership and being a party to ever closer political union. Myself and many others prefer another way where we are not a party to closer political union and would prefer an independant Nation.    These are the choices people made in the referendum and for what ever reason people voted for which one they prefered.  Its done now and a majority voted to leave the EU.  All this talk about people being stupid or that we understand more now or we never voted for no deal is playing games with the reality of it.  We now need to leave quickly and all get on with making the best of it.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			What will change?

It was the UKâ€™s choice not to implement tighter immigration controls. We could have under EU law but didnâ€™t.

So thatâ€™s not a valid answer to the question.

Can you pick another?
		
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We never had the right to limit the numbers to suit our own requirements or filter the skills we require.  That is the problem.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah great, but do you have an answer to the question.
Top 10 laws.....
		
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No.  I don't want any other country having jurisdiction over any of our laws. Period.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 1, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			What will change?

It was the UKâ€™s choice not to implement tighter immigration controls. We could have under EU law but didnâ€™t.

So thatâ€™s not a valid answer to the question.

Can you pick another?
		
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No. You might not think its valid but millions of brexiteers do. Thats the point tour missing


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## Kellfire (Sep 1, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			No. You might not think its valid but millions of brexiteers do. Thats the point tour missing
		
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Itâ€™s invalid because we CHOSE NOT TO CONTROL IMMIGRATION. The EU didnâ€™t stop us. We stopped ourselves.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Itâ€™s sort of like the way we all know the Brexit vote wasnâ€™t legally binding but still Brexiteers are saying it isnâ€™t democracy if it doesnâ€™t happen.

Ah, semantics. Sometimes theyâ€™re not your friend.
		
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The referendum advised parliament that the majority wanted them to leave the EU.  Parliament then voted into law by a large majority the legal process to make this happen.  No semantics , legally binding and democratic.


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## robinthehood (Sep 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No.  I don't want any other country having jurisdiction over any of our laws. Period.
		
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No other country does. 
Top 10s please ...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Itâ€™s invalid because we CHOSE NOT TO CONTROL IMMIGRATION. The EU didnâ€™t stop us. We stopped ourselves.
		
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Yes they did and cameron challenged it when negotiating a new deal/reformed EU which formed his policy to remain in the EU.  AÄºl they would concede was a temporary emergency brake on free movement if agreed by a majority of member states (no chance)


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No other country does.
Top 10s please ...
		
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The EU does and that means all its member states.  Im not interested in top ten, I dont want any, period


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## robinthehood (Sep 1, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I

I think if the migration/immigration had been sorted out years ago we wouldn't be leaving. I would suggest looking at that first.
		
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No, I'm after what the laws are brexiters are keen to see repealed. 
Top 5 will do.


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## robinthehood (Sep 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The EU does and that means all its member states.  Im not interested in top ten, I dont want any, period
		
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Even if they are beneficial? Seems pretty blinkered to me.
It almost like you can't actually answer the question.
Will you be reverting to type?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Even if they are beneficial? Seems pretty blinkered to me.
		
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We can decide what's benifical and what's not.


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## robinthehood (Sep 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We can decide what's benifical and what's not.
		
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Just now you didn't want any... how does this work?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But after Corbyn, who would you choose? I agree he isn't PM material, and of his acolytes Starmer might one day make a decent politician. But who from any party would you choose? Which party could put a half decent cabinet together?

One thing this last 3 years has shown is that out of over 600 politicians, of which the cream of those parties have reached the top, who is good enough to govern?
		
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Until Labour chuck Corbyn and most of his lack luster shadow cabinet, replace them with better quality people and retract their connection with the momentum group  they will not form a government.


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## Hobbit (Sep 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Until Labour chuck Corbyn and most of his lack luster shadow cabinet, replace them with better quality people and retract their connection with the momentum group  they will not form a government.
		
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I think they will. Bearing in mind that Corbyn was leader at the last GE, and almost got in, just think what damage a split vote between the Tories and the Brexit Party would entail. I wouldn't be surprised if Labour had a significant working majority because of the split vote crippling the Tories.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Just now you didn't want any... how does this work?
		
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Try to keep up ðŸ™„  you asked if it would be ok if any of the laws were beneficial, my reply suggested that we don't need the EU to make any of our laws, we can decide our laws and whats beneficial to us, we can as a self governing democracy decide if prospective laws are not a benefit also.


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## Dando (Sep 1, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Itâ€™s sort of like the way we all know the Brexit vote wasnâ€™t legally binding but still Brexiteers are saying it isnâ€™t democracy if it doesnâ€™t happen.

Ah, semantics. Sometimes theyâ€™re not your friend.
		
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No doubt it wouldâ€™ve been legally binding if we voted to remain


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think they will. Bearing in mind that Corbyn was leader at the last GE, and almost got in, just think what damage a split vote between the Tories and the Brexit Party would entail. I wouldn't be surprised if Labour had a significant working majority because of the split vote crippling the Tories.
		
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He was the new boy on the block then, now he looks old, tired and well past his best, people have now seen his true colours.  In the event of an election forced onto the Torys I am fairly confident they would have an electorial pact with the Brexit Party.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No, I'm after what the laws are brexiters are keen to see repealed.
Top 5 will do.
		
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First law. When the high court makes its decision. Its final. No running to the EU coz a christian bakery will not make a LGBT cake.


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Why is it not a good idea ? We can then sort out our own deals with countries outside the EU which at the moment we cannot do. This could lead to cheaper products for UK consumers and also open up potential new markets for UK companies. There all all sorts of other things of course like getting back control of our fishing waters, control of our laws and not having to answer to European courts. At the minute, because of the mess Theresa May left us in, a clean brexit is the only true form of brexit as the existing deal, even being amended, is just not acceptable
		
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Can you name any law 'imposed' on UK that hasn't been 'beneficial'?
This 'having to answer to European Courts' is a complete red herring. There's only 1 court in EU where final appeals are heard - the CJEU. And that, quite rightly imo, deals solely with EU Law. The few instances there where rulings have gone against the UK Government have been absolutely reasonable imo. And, where deemed necessary, the UK Government has modified its action accordingly! 
I'm inclined to opine that 'getting back control of our fishing waters' isn't going to be the panacea some believe it to be. For a start, we'll lose any rights to the EU's waters.
That potential 'cheaper products' argument is a 'maybe' imo. The fact that nobody has actually mentioned the sort of products involved indicates, to me, that they'll be few and far between. The main source is likely to be the US, but I have serious doubts about many of their products and methods - including Trump's manipulation of trade! 

So, to me, it's all been a rather successful propaganda campaign latching onto the fear and ignorance of (much of) the UK public! 

The only real benefit I see is one you haven't mentioned above - control of UK borders, who is allowed to enter and for how long! But there'll still be plenty of foreigners allowed in, because the UK economy needs them!


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Well quite frankly I dont wish to stand for an anthem of *an undemocratic organisation full of unelected beaurocrats*. I dont feel European, I'm British, we already have an anthem, we dont need another
		
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Two more myths/propaganda!
UK has a different form of democracy to France or Germany (or the EU) or USA or Canada. Being of a different form doesn't mean it's 'undemocratic'!
Kindly name the (groups of) 'unelected beaurocrats' that are any different to those that exist in UK! Aside from the 28 Commissioners - each being appointed by Member States.


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			First law. When the high court makes its decision. Its final. No running to the EU coz a christian bakery will not make a LGBT cake.
		
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Just about everything in that post is wrong! 
Leaving the EU won't stop that issue being resolved outside UK!


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## Parsaregood (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah great, but do you have an answer to the question.
Top 10 laws.....
		
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Here's one straight off the bat, not a law but a regulation. Increasing the size in spacing of fishing nets therefore reducing fisherman's catch by 40%. That's a big hit to take.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 1, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Just about everything in that post is wrong!
Leaving the EU won't stop that issue being resolved outside UK!
		
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What exactly is wrong, the fact an LGBT activist deliberately went out of his way to target a Christian bakery. Or the fact he is now taking the UK law ( not the bakery ) to the European court. Or the fact I have brought it up. Just for the record Foxy before the professionally offended start dropping anchors. I am all for LGBT rights, equally I am all for religious rights. Equally I am all for the rights of this country's laws, Without running to the EU coz like staying in or out of the EU it didn't go my way.

Al tell you what is wrong with your post, you have answered Robinthehoods question. Leaving the EU will make sure that issue is resolved on the shores. Thankyou.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 1, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Here's one straight off the bat, not a law but a regulation. Increasing the size in spacing of fishing nets therefore reducing fisherman's catch by 40%. That's a big hit to take.
		
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https://fullfact.org/europe/fishermens-mesh-eu-parliament-speech/


It *might*  be if wasnâ€™t largely Ann Widecombe bullshit.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Once we've taken back control what are everyone's top 10 laws that the EU foisted upon us that they want to see repealed?
		
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TPD


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			What exactly is wrong, the fact an LGBT activist deliberately went out of his way to target a Christian bakery. Or the fact he is now taking the UK law ( not the bakery ) to the European court. Or the fact I have brought it up. Just for the record Foxy before the professionally offended start dropping anchors. I am all for LGBT rights, equally I am all for religious rights. Equally I am all for the rights of this country's laws, Without running to the EU coz like staying in or out of the EU it didn't go my way.

Al tell you what is wrong with your post, you have answered Robinthehoods question. Leaving the EU will make sure that issue is resolved on the shores. Thankyou.
		
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Go have a look at which court the case was eventually referred to! 
Leaving the EU will not affect that case at all!

And FWIW, your court heirarchy in your OP was wrong also!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2019)

A couple of technical questions for anyone with more knowledge than me.........

1) If MPs manage to take control of commons business is it possible for a Brexiteer to block any action with a filibuster (is that the right word?) speech?

2) I remember an MP getting criticised previously for shouting something that stopped a debate on a subject (possibly a debate on the law on "upskirting" photos but I'm not sure). Could a similar tactic be used by a Brexiteer in these circumstances to block any legislation that they are attempting to introduce?


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			A couple of technical questions for anyone with more knowledge than me.........

1) If MPs manage to take control of commons business is it possible for a Brexiteer to block any action with a filibuster (is that the right word?) speech?

2) I remember an MP getting criticised previously for shouting something that stopped a debate on a subject (possibly a debate on the law on "upskirting" photos but I'm not sure). Could a similar tactic be used by a Brexiteer in these circumstances to block any legislation that they are attempting to introduce?
		
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Both houses have been filibustering right from the start which is why 3 years in we are no further forward.

The clowns say they will not allow the country to leave on a no deal
The EU gave a deal (like it or not)
The clowns rejected the deal democratically by voting 3 times
The EU says no further deal will be offered
You don't need a university degree to realize if no further deal is to be offered then the only option is no deal

The clowns now say that Boris is denying them a democratic vote, they've had 3, how many more do they want.

It's no more than filibustering of the highest order and they are to cowardly to admit that their only intention is to stop Brexit.

If that's the kind of democracy that remainers want, the only what's suits me kind, then who are the real junta lovers.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Both houses have been filibustering right from the start which is why 3 years in we are no further forward.

The clowns say they will not allow the country to leave on a no deal
The EU gave a deal (like it or not)
The clowns rejected the deal democratically by voting 3 times
The EU says no further deal will be offered
You don't need a university degree to realize *if no further deal is to be offered then the only option is no deal*

The clowns now say that Boris is denying them a democratic vote, they've had 3, how many more do they want.

It's no more than filibustering of the highest order and they are to cowardly to admit that their only intention is to stop Brexit.

If that's the kind of democracy that remainers want, the only what's suits me kind, then who are the real junta lovers.
		
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Or revoking Article 50.


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## Old Skier (Sep 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Or revoking Article 50.
		
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But then it will shown them up to be exactly the same type of 3 time lying barstewards that they accuse BJ and his cronies of.


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## robinthehood (Sep 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Try to keep up ðŸ™„  you asked if it would be ok if any of the laws were beneficial, my reply suggested that we don't need the EU to make any of our laws, we can decide our laws and whats beneficial to us, we can as a self governing democracy decide if prospective laws are not a benefit also.
		
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Oof , so no one can even come up with a top 3 let alone 10.. just a non answer from this chap and a couple of other wrong answers from else where.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof , so no one can even come up with a top 3 let alone 10.. just a non answer from this chap and a couple of other wrong answers from else where.
		
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What would it add to the discussions. I can only think of one directive that came from the EU and that swayed my leave vote at the time. I canâ€™t imagine anybody can think of any directives off the top of their head that we transposed. 
EU should of remained as a trading bloc. Itâ€™s not logical that our island nation has a parliament in Brussels that we pay for,  when we pay for our own useless lot in Westminster. We could use that money on something like the NHS.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof , so no one can even come up with a top 3 let alone 10.. just a non answer from this chap and a couple of other wrong answers from else where.
		
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Surely the flipside of this is to ask what 10 benefits can you name for being in the EU? And I'm not even asking for the top 10 laws that are beneficial, just 10 reasons for being a member that can be seen as a benefit, whether they are EU laws or not.


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## Hobbit (Sep 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely the flipside of this is to ask what 10 benefits can you name for being in the EU? And I'm not even asking for the top 10 laws that are beneficial, just 10 reasons for being a member that can be seen as a benefit, whether they are EU laws or not.
		
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Freedom of movement.
Working in an EU member state is a lot easier as a member.
Access to healthcare is a lot easier.
Pension rights are ring fenced.
Right to reside is a lot easier - the criteria for 3rd country citizens is a lot tougher.
Getting a Spanish driving licence is a lot easier if you have a licence from an EU member state... see above for 3rd country citizens.
Don't need a different International driving permit for each EU country visited.
Banking is a lot easier.
Taxation(double taxation) is easier to sort.
Education at an EU university, via Eramus, is a lot easier to access.

There's 10 that could change dramatically.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof , so no one can even come up with a top 3 let alone 10.. just a non answer from this chap and a couple of other wrong answers from else where.
		
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(Should I start with 'Oof'  what ever that's supposed to mean )
I am not going to trawl through all legislation that has been hoisted on us or ones we have objected to just because you ask for it.    There are a number of cases where the UK have been prevented from deporting criminals by the ECJ and there are websites showing the number of eu directives and laws objected to by the UK that were unsuccessful.  I keep telling you that my view is that I don't want the EU to have any jurisdiction over UK laws, you seem unable to grasp this.  Nothing else here to see, move on.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof , so no one can even come up with a top 3 let alone 10.. just a non answer from this chap and a couple of other wrong answers from else where.
		
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I am amazed that kipper packaging and straight banana laws aren't right up there.
Shows the depth of Tory/UKIP/Brexit propaganda that many dimwits are prepared to believe.

Genuinely surprised that we have absolutely no Brexiters on this forum who are able to answer your challenge.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Or revoking Article 50.
		
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Do you honestly believe that would be an acceptable action and if you do then please explain why. I would really like to understand.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am amazed that kipper packaging and straight banana laws aren't right up there.
Shows the depth of Tory/UKIP/Brexit propaganda that many dimwits are prepared to believe.

Genuinely surprised that we have absolutely no Brexiters on this forum who are able to answer your challenge.
		
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If you are to dimwitted to understand my reply then it shows the shallowness of your trolling.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Freedom of movement. -* yes, but this allows anyone to move to the UK simply because of where they were born rather than if they are needed or will provide a benefit to the UK. Why should a doctor from Poland have more of a right to move to the UK to work rather than a more qualified person from India or Pakistan?*
Working in an EU member state is a lot easier as a member. *- from a selfish point of view this is great as a lot of my work is in EU countries but again, why should I get preference over someone from a non-EU country purely because of an accident of birth?*
Access to healthcare is a lot easier.
Pension rights are ring fenced.
Right to reside is a lot easier - the criteria for 3rd country citizens is a lot tougher. - *as above. An accident of birth, or being born in the "right" country gives you more rights than someone who was born somewhere else.*
Getting a Spanish driving licence is a lot easier if you have a licence from an EU member state... see above for 3rd country citizens.
Don't need a different International driving permit for each EU country visited.
Banking is a lot easier.
Taxation(double taxation) is easier to sort. *- again great for me on a selfish/personal level due to my work in EU countries but for the average Leave voter is insignificant.*
Education at an EU university, via Eramus, is a lot easier to access *- will this be reduced/restricted or will they simply be more stringent in their checks on those that have come here to study and haven't left?*

There's 10 that could change dramatically.
		
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Cheers Hobbit. Some of the above are undoubtedly benefits but some, to my mind, could be argued - as per my responses above. Many of the benefits are because someone has been born in the "correct" country rather than because of the skills of the individual and what positives they can bring to the country they are moving to.


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## robinthehood (Sep 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am amazed that kipper packaging and straight banana laws aren't right up there.
Shows the depth of Tory/UKIP/Brexit propaganda that many dimwits are prepared to believe.

Genuinely surprised that we have absolutely no Brexiters on this forum who are able to answer your challenge.
		
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Tbf I've had the answers I expected.
1. Avoidance.   Check
2. Quote a few myths.  Check
3. Ask me the exact same question in reverse.   Check 
4. All in all , none the wiser.     Check


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly believe that would be an acceptable action and if you do then please explain why. I would really like to understand.
		
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No I don't, I think that it would be an aberration for MPs to revoke Article 50. Even as someone that supported Remain, and still believes that staying in the EU would be the best thing for the UK, I don't think that there is any alternative to the UK leaving. I'm happy to accept that my side lost the argument and the vote went against us, even though it's going to make my work life much more difficult (depending on how we leave or the agreement we reach). Despite the arguments that the referendum wasn't legally binding etc. the fact is that the government of the day said that they would implement the result and at a subsequent GE both main parties stood on a platform of respecting the result. I don't see any other option other than for us to leave and as the only agreement the EU has said they are willing to offer has been rejected 3 times then no deal is the only option open to us.


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## Pants (Sep 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am amazed that kipper packaging and straight banana laws aren't right up there.
Shows the depth of Tory/UKIP/Brexit propaganda that many dimwits are prepared to believe.

Genuinely surprised that we have absolutely no Brexiters on this forum who are able to answer your challenge.
		
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Perhaps most are content not to keep feeding trolls.

Don't think that I have ever seen straight bananas

Dimwits???  There you go again.  Plonker 

Btw.  Just what part of kipper packaging are you on about?  If you feel like replying, please read in full BOTH sides of the story.  In part, BJ was wrong about the "ice pillows" but absolutely right about how the EU regulates how kippers are transported.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Tbf I've had the answers I expected.
1. Avoidance.   Check
2. Quote a few myths.  Check
3. Ask me the exact same question in reverse.   Check
4. All in all , none the wiser.     Check
		
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Move along ðŸ™„


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## robinthehood (Sep 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Move along ðŸ™„
		
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5. Socketrocket reverting to type .   Check
ðŸ˜‚


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## Dando (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am amazed that kipper packaging and straight banana laws aren't right up there.
Shows the depth of Tory/UKIP/Brexit propaganda that many dimwits are prepared to believe.

Genuinely surprised that we have absolutely no Brexiters on this forum who are able to answer your challenge.
		
Click to expand...

Yet another dig at those who have a different view to yours


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## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Cheers Hobbit. Some of the above are undoubtedly benefits but some, to my mind, could be argued - as per my responses above. Many of the benefits are because someone has been born in the "correct" country rather than because of the skills of the individual and what positives they can bring to the country they are moving to.
		
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Iâ€™ve employed many non-EU workers. More hoops to jump through but not difficult to do. 

Youâ€™re assuming the benefits are only one way, for people coming from the EU. My response was the benefits available when moving to an EU country. All the benefits you complain of are, strangely enough, the benefits a U.K. citizen receives when they go to another EU country.

The vast majority of EU citizens go to the U.K. for work. And the current employment rate suggests they are needed.

If you want to whinge about economic migrants, look at the numbers of sub=Saharan illegal migrants.


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## patricks148 (Sep 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I

I think if the migration/immigration had been sorted out years ago we wouldn't be leaving. I would suggest looking at that first.
		
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we had more immigration from outside the EU since the tories took over, they could have done something about that but instead cut UK border force budgets and jobs


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 2, 2019)

Dando said:



			Yet another dig at those who have a different view to yours
		
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No, I am having a dig because posters on here who have a very different view from me cannot answer robinthehood's very simple question


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			we had more immigration from outside the EU since the tories took over, they could have done something about that but instead cut UK border force budgets and jobs
		
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India saying any trade deal will probably involve an element of free movement.


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			India saying any trade deal will probably involve an element of free movement.
		
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Now give the full version


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## patricks148 (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			India saying any trade deal will probably involve an element of free movement.
		
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i know see post 11,542


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

Freedom of movement - I'm still required to show my passport when I enter main land Europe as I do when I enter other countries so its relatively free all over the place
Access to healthcare easier - not where I live, some may even argue that freedom of movement may have caused some of the issues - I don't.
Pension rights ring fenced - makes no odds, if a business goes belly up and cannot pay then its ring fencing nothing
One International driving permit covers you.
Never had a problem with banking before the EU


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Tbf I've had the answers I expected.
1. Avoidance.   Check
2. Quote a few myths.  Check
3. Ask me the exact same question in reverse.   Check
4. All in all , none the wiser.     Check
		
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EU procurement legislation has had a negative affect on small businesses in my area including sending some out of business.

As you want to play top trumps:

Fancy telling me what the EU is going to look like in 8 years time and whether they will be able to continue along the same lines as it does now.  You'd be the first to answer.

All posts like this prove is Remainers like Leavers will only answer posts they want to answer.


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## woody69 (Sep 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			(Should I start with 'Oof'  what ever that's supposed to mean )
I am not going to trawl through all legislation that has been hoisted on us or ones we have objected to just because you ask for it.    *There are a number of cases where the UK have been prevented from deporting criminals by the ECJ* and there are websites showing the number of eu directives and laws objected to by the UK that were unsuccessful.  I keep telling you that my view is that I don't want the EU to have any jurisdiction over UK laws, you seem unable to grasp this.  Nothing else here to see, move on.
		
Click to expand...

Myth - https://infacts.org/mythbusts/eu-hasnt-prevented-uk-deporting-terrorists-2/


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## robinthehood (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			EU procurement legislation has had a negative affect on small businesses in my area including sending some out of business.

As you want to play top trumps:

Fancy telling me what the EU is going to look like in 8 years time and whether they will be able to continue along the same lines as it does now.  You'd be the first to answer.

All posts like this prove is Remainers like Leavers will only answer posts they want to answer.
		
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I don't know, pretty much like it is now id say....May be an extra member ? 
You can view the EU s 10 year plan on line.


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## woody69 (Sep 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			This has been done to death so whats the point of dragging it out again. You and many others are content with EU membership and being a party to ever closer political union. Myself and many others prefer another way where we are not a party to closer political union and would prefer an independant Nation.    These are the choices people made in the referendum and for what ever reason people voted for which one they prefered.  Its done now and a majority voted to leave the EU.  All this talk about people being stupid or that we understand more now or we never voted for no deal is playing games with the reality of it.  We now need to leave quickly and all get on with making the best of it.
		
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How has a discussion around people being content with no deal been done to death? Going back to the "you lost get over it" isn't something I am interested in. I just want to understand how people think a no deal BREXIT, i.e. leave at any cost is acceptable. It was supposed to be the easiest deal in history, we hold all the cards etc. The WA satisfies the legal requirement to exit the EU. Sure it's a terrible deal, but it does deliver BREXIT.


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Myth - https://infacts.org/mythbusts/eu-hasnt-prevented-uk-deporting-terrorists-2/

Click to expand...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...-allow-foreign-killer-to-stay-in-Britain.html


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

woody69 said:



			How has a discussion around people being content with no deal been done to death? Going back to the "you lost get over it" isn't something I am interested in. I just want to understand how people think a no deal BREXIT, i.e. leave at any cost is acceptable. It was supposed to be the easiest deal in history, we hold all the cards etc. The WA satisfies the legal requirement to exit the EU. Sure it's a terrible deal, but it does deliver BREXIT.
		
Click to expand...

The simple answer is that until our MPs carry out the majority votes that were cast in Parliament its as per # 11579 because until we are actually allowed to start negotiating properly its stalemate.

Funny how a "I don't know" from a remainer seems acceptable to some but they will not accept the same statement from a leaver.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am amazed that kipper packaging and straight banana laws aren't right up there.
Shows the depth of Tory/UKIP/Brexit propaganda that many dimwits are prepared to believe.

Genuinely surprised that we have absolutely no Brexiters on this forum who are able to answer your challenge.
		
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Yea, can't get my head around dimwits that believed the lies and propaganda of the political classes and are now demanding a second bite of the cherry...


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, I am having a dig because posters on here who have a very different view from me cannot answer robinthehood's very simple question

Click to expand...

Am sure I answered it but it was dismissed. Does that make me a dimwit.

Am sure nigh on 16 million people had a differant view to me. It don't make them dimwits. It means there circumsatnces are differant to mine.What it means to me is that they have a view I respect.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...-allow-foreign-killer-to-stay-in-Britain.html

Click to expand...

Fancy posting that you dimwit ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ‘


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Fancy posting that you dimwit ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

You can posts as many facts as you like to some, it makes no odds, they will still say it's a myth.  Anyway, it's a forum, no room for facts to support an argument here, they either get ignored or the children put you on ignore.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

for those who say we did not understand what we were voting for :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1168454503043096576


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## woody69 (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...-allow-foreign-killer-to-stay-in-Britain.html

Click to expand...

The problem with looking at individual cases rather than the bigger picture is you are fed a false narrative that the EU is preventing the UK from deporting criminals, when it simply isn't true, especially when those stories are coming from sources such as the Telegraph.

The UK deported something like over 5000 EU nationals from the UK and they were able to do that because they met the criteria. The woman in that article you posted has been living in the UK for over 6 years when she committed the offence, so was considered to be a permanent resident and it was a UK judge that felt she didn't fall into the criteria of serious grounds under public policy or public security that will justify expulsion.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

katya adler

@BBCkatyaadler

Sense in EU of confusion, concern plus a deep distrust in  Johnson government. Diplomat from country traditionally close to EU that has a lot to lose from no deal #Brexit tells me: "We can see Boris Johnson is playing a game but we donâ€™t understand the rules or the strategy.â€ /1
EU focus now is dramatically different from beginning of Brexit negotiations when Brussels' plan was undoubtedly to get UK to agree to the most advantageous deal possible seen from the EU perspective BUT /2 With no deal now considered the most likely scenario by EU,  the bloc is in self-preservation, damage-limitation mode, with EU leaders wondering how they ..and the EU as a whole .. can emerge from the Brexit drama as unscathed as possible /3 Political leaders - like Merkel or Rutte in NL - very keen indeed that a deal be found. Aware of economic impact of no deal for them at home plus they envisage likely acrimonious EU-UK relationship emerging post no deal that they fear will serve Putin and Trump most of all BUT/4 EU leader keen-ness to find a #Brexit compromise should not be confused as willingness to do whatever it takes to get a deal with UK. EU single market concerns are paramount when looking at alternatives to backstop. Merkel certainly not looking for deal "at any price" /5 PM's EU envoy David Frost is back in Brussels this Weds, possibly Friday too but his visits regarded by EU so far as "optics" aimed at domestic UK audience, rather than negotiating substance. Johnson gov has yet to put realistic alternative to backstop on the table /6
Officially EU position is 1) it awaits UK proposals because 2) the backstop as stands is the only credible solution that fits the UK red lines as set out by Theresa May and recognises unique situation on island of Ireland BUT privately some key EU players thinking...  /7 "Did we miss something?" "Were we too focussed on encouraging UK to a closer position with us post #Brexit ?" "Is there a workable alternative to backstop that protects all-Ireland economy and EU single market enough?"  One possibility being considered (though viewed by many in EU as leaving too many exploitable holes) is sector-by-sector deal for Irish border conundrum: eg one for vetinary checks, for steel goods etc. Similar to what EU has (and swore never to replicate) with Switzerland. /9 Most simple solution for EU and the PM (in EU's opinion!):A return to original Northern Ireland-only backstop (could be dressed-up as st else if Johnson wants to make it more palatable in UK). Maybe works if Johnson holds election before UK leaves EU + no longer relies on DUP/10 EU musings that pm could hold a NI referendum on Northern-Ireland only backstop in knowledge that NI polls suggest majority there very much in favour /11 BUT bottom line is that EU will only make compromises on backstop - if painful ones for EU - if bloc is convinced that a majority in parliament is guaranteed to approve the revised deal. Right now EU leaders see Johnson doesnt have the numbers /12 Johnson's weakness in parliament impedes deal-making far more than a "Rebel Alliance" threatening to stop no deal on 31 October or EU being or not being fully-convinced of Johnson threat of no deal (NB they ARE convinced and that has made them more willing to engage) /13 I notice that - as so many other times in #Brexit process - both sides misunderstand one another: Johnson&co think no deal threat will make EU cave (but Brussels won't unless a compromise is in their wider interest) and some in EU still think if they refuse to engage..  /14 Then Johnson will buckle just before 31 October, when faced with political, economic cost of no deal. In fact: unlikely he would. Whatever happens, bets are on that EU leaders scheduled summit mid Oct will NOT be final word. Emergency EU summit (or 2) expected later October /15


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## woody69 (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The simple answer is that until our MPs carry out the majority votes that were cast in Parliament its as per # 11579 because until we are actually allowed to start negotiating properly its stalemate.

Funny how a "I don't know" from a remainer seems acceptable to some but they will not accept the same statement from a leaver.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean with "are actually allowed to start negotiating properly"?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			we had more immigration from outside the EU since the tories took over, they could have done something about that but instead cut UK border force budgets and jobs
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, two wrongs dont make a right


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			What will change?

It was the UKâ€™s choice not to implement tighter immigration controls. We could have under EU law but didnâ€™t.

So thatâ€™s not a valid answer to the question.

Can you pick another?
		
Click to expand...

Eh? What?

Please explain!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean with "are actually allowed to start negotiating properly"?
		
Click to expand...

Really!


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean with "are actually allowed to start negotiating properly"?
		
Click to expand...

The UK is unable to conduct FULL trade deals until they actual implement Article 50


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			5. Socketrocket reverting to type .   Check
ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Thats absolutely correct, something we can agree on at last.
Socketrocket recognising a plonker trolling.   Oof!   Move on sweet cheeks.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 2, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean with "are actually allowed to start negotiating properly"?
		
Click to expand...


Do you mean you have been blathering on but do not even understand that the U.K. can not negotiate a trade deal until the withdrawal agreement has been agreed? Oh lord.And they call us dim! ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

woody69 said:



			How has a discussion around people being content with no deal been done to death? Going back to the "you lost get over it" isn't something I am interested in. I just want to understand how people think a no deal BREXIT, i.e. leave at any cost is acceptable. It was supposed to be the easiest deal in history, we hold all the cards etc. The WA satisfies the legal requirement to exit the EU. Sure it's a terrible deal, but it does deliver BREXIT.
		
Click to expand...

Then why did so many vote against it who now are argueing we should not leave without a deal.  What is this deal they consider acceptable.  Please tell me because I dont have a scooby what they want.


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## woody69 (Sep 2, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Do you mean you have been blathering on but do not even understand that the U.K. can not negotiate a trade deal until the withdrawal agreement has been agreed? Oh lord.And they call us dim! ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

No. I just wasn't sure as to what @Old skier was referring to with that statement. Not sure that ad hominen attack was quite necessary.


Old Skier said:



			The UK is unable to conduct FULL trade deals until they actual implement Article 50
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for clarifying. Unfortunately that is just the way it is. We signed up to A50 which clearly states the WA first and a framework for the future relationship (which is exactly what happened). I guess ff the UK didn't like Article 50 they shouldn't have got Lord Kerr to write it


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## woody69 (Sep 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Then why did so many vote against it who now are argueing we should not leave without a deal.  What is this deal they consider acceptable.  Please tell me because I dont have a scooby what they want.
		
Click to expand...

What they are trying to do is block leaving without a deal, not block brexit. Many of them voted in favour or Theresa May's WA. Had the ERG voted the same, we would have already left.


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## robinthehood (Sep 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats absolutely correct, something we can agree on at last.
Socketrocket recognising a plonker trolling.   Oof!   Move on sweet cheeks.
		
Click to expand...

Ah there it is, rather than answer the question you roll out the abuse.


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## patricks148 (Sep 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Exactly, two wrongs dont make a right
		
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eh??

 many people bring up the whole imigration thing as the reason to leave when infact the current Tory Gov who are using this as an excuse when they did nothing to stop it for the larger influx they could. even setting targets they missed by miles.

so what i'm saying is the Imigration is a bit of a red hearring, people who voted leave because of it were/ are conned


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## drdel (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, I am having a dig because posters on here who have a very different view from me cannot answer robinthehood's very simple question

Click to expand...

Perhaps its because the disingenuous question's answer would require non-trolling Remainers to stop looking in the mirror and expecting history to repeat. Its not the current 'small' stuff that will affect UK citizens its the big issues coming down the road that will cause you, i and everyone else most future pain.

The world has changed but the EU has not. Growth within the EU will be limited because of 'single market' restrictions and the new markets are in the RoW. EU finances are pretty much out of control and the UK will be expected to fill a widening gap at the expense of our own development and communities. The debts caused by the ECB QE etc are based on bonds that have a decreasing value because of individual countrys' continued over borrowing.

The EU has federalist aims that will draw more functions to the 'centre' at great cost and loss of policy flexibility in agriculture, defence, manufacturing, medication, policing, taxation, trade and so on.

An independent UK will have the necessary flexibility to develop policies that fit us as a developed nation by not being tied to a failed experiment that tries to harmonise fundamentally different countries by shifting money (while creaming off a big top slice) and daft subsidies which just causes a race to the bottom.


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

woody69 said:



			No. I just wasn't sure as to what @SocketRocket was referring to with that statement. Not sure that ad hominen attack was quite necessary.

Thank you for clarifying. Unfortunately that is just the way it is. We signed up to A50 which clearly states the WA first and a framework for the future relationship (which is exactly what happened). I guess ff the UK didn't like Article 50 they shouldn't have got Lord Kerr to write it
		
Click to expand...

And if all those MPs had struck to their word we would now be out and negotiating.

 Do you honestly believe there isn't a definite move in parliament to stop Brexit and please don't give me the "No Deal" lies.

Are you happy that JC is leader of the Labour Party even he is proving to be a big a liar as BJ.


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## patricks148 (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And if all those MPs had struck to their word we would now be out and negotiating.

Do you honestly believe there isn't a definite move in parliament to stop Brexit and please don't give me the "No Deal" lies.

Are you happy that JC is leader of the Labour Party even he is proving to be a big a liar as BJ.
		
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LOL, has JC been fired twice for telling porkies??

Jezzers nose would be a inch or so longer than normal, not so with BJ, he would need some sort of support divice for that hooter


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## drdel (Sep 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			LOL, has JC been fired twice for telling porkies??

*Jezzers* nose would be a inch or so longer than normal, not so with BJ, he would need some sort of support divice for that hooter

Click to expand...

Do you mean the guy who attended a wreath laying but didn't remember and then recalled that he while he was there didn't support it?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

Deutsche Bankâ€™s chief economist, David Folkerts-Landau, not only says that over the medium and long-term a â€˜No Dealâ€™ Brexit will make no difference to the British economy, he says an inadequate deal which constrained the British economy would be_ â€œa second best solutionâ€_. Confirming what many in Downing Street believe, namely that even without the back-stop, Mayâ€™s regulatory-aligned deal would have detrimentally constrained the dynamic British economy. So-called â€œregulatory alignmentâ€ is an EU imposed constraint on unleashing the British economy to outcompete turgid EU rivals. _As the leaked French memo on Friday revealed, Paris fears a resurgent, deregulated dynamic British economyâ€¦_


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## patricks148 (Sep 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			Do you mean the guy who attended a wreath laying but didn't remember and then recalled that he while he was there didn't support it?
		
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yep thats the guy, not sure attending some event is worse than being fired twice from paid employment though.... but then you boys have double standards


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			eh??

many people bring up the whole imigration thing as the reason to leave when infact the current Tory Gov who are using this as an excuse when they did nothing to stop it for the larger influx they could. even setting targets they missed by miles.

so what i'm saying is the Imigration is a bit of a red hearring, people who voted leave because of it were/ are conned
		
Click to expand...

It's not immigration per se that's the problem! It's uncontrolled immigration!

The vast majority of those non-EU immigrants satisfied set criteria that the UK can change according to its needs. Freedom of movement means that EVERY EU citizen is entitled to come to UK - so that's 'uncontrolled'!


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ah there it is, rather than answer the question you roll out the abuse.
		
Click to expand...

Oof!

Thought I'd better 'complete' your post!


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2019)

woody69 said:



			...The WA satisfies the legal requirement to exit the EU. Sure it's a terrible deal, *but it does deliver BREXIT*.
		
Click to expand...

That's the entire problem...It doesn't deliver Brexit!


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			LOL, has JC been fired twice for telling porkies??

Jezzers nose would be a inch or so longer than normal, not so with BJ, he would need some sort of support divice for that hooter

Click to expand...

You protest to much biggest flip flop ever


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			yep thats the guy, not sure attending some event is worse than being fired twice from paid employment though.... but then you boys have double standards

Click to expand...

Depends if you support terrorists or not. Let me think, fired twice, support terrorists. Popcorn anyone.


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

Update voter registration forms arriving today - who knows, are they brave enough.


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## patricks148 (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You protest to much biggest flip flop ever 





Click to expand...

and?? i could post up the BJ porkies hughlight real, but it would be too big a file to load


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Deutsche Bankâ€™s chief economist, David Folkerts-Landau, not only says that over the medium and long-term a â€˜No Dealâ€™ Brexit will make no difference to the British economy, he says an inadequate deal which constrained the British economy would be_ â€œa second best solutionâ€_. Confirming what many in Downing Street believe, namely that even without the back-stop, Mayâ€™s regulatory-aligned deal would have detrimentally constrained the dynamic British economy. So-called â€œregulatory alignmentâ€ is an EU imposed constraint on unleashing the British economy to outcompete turgid EU rivals. _As the leaked French memo on Friday revealed, Paris fears a resurgent, deregulated dynamic British economyâ€¦_

Click to expand...

That don't count coz it's not a top ten worry for us dimwits. Plus facts have now been preceded by " your liar is a bigger liar than ours" so we should stay.


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			and?? i could post up the BJ porkies hughlight real, but it would be too big a file to load

Click to expand...

So your happy supporting your liar then, fine, then it's ok for others to support BJ.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It's not immigration per se that's the problem! It's uncontrolled immigration!

The vast majority of those non-EU immigrants satisfied set criteria that the UK can change according to its needs. Freedom of movement means that EVERY EU citizen is entitled to come to UK - so that's 'uncontrolled'!
		
Click to expand...

But surely that is the governments fault ðŸ¤” As we are led to believe. That every single person in Europe can come to the UK. I get the arguement that I can move to Romania and become a sheep farmer as can everyone else in the UK. Don't see many rushing to do it though. Has the penny actually dropped why so many migrants/ immigrants want to come to the UK. But again the influx of migrants hasn't put any strain on our services has it. Hang on we have done that a dozen times and still got no where.


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			So your happy supporting your liar then, fine, then it's ok for others to support BJ theirs.
		
Click to expand...

FTFY!


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## patricks148 (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			So your happy supporting your liar then, fine, then it's ok for others to support BJ.
		
Click to expand...

i wouldn't necessarily agree Jezza was a liar, he just can't make his mind up.... and FYI i love a BJ just to that one


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			FTFY! 

Click to expand...

Ta, forgot your trade mark [{(. )}]


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i wouldn't necessarily agree Jezza was a liar, he just can't make his mind up.... and FYI i love a BJ just to that one

Click to expand...

You have double standards, now I understand.


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## patricks148 (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You have double standards, now I understand.
		
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how is it double standards?, what lies has jezza told??  he may have changed his opinion, but not outright lies Boris has sprouted and continues to sprout.

lets agree to disagree.


i don't think Jez is a bad man at heart, he wouldn't be my first choice of PM, but he is way above the current incumbent


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 2, 2019)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...GGo1k?ocid=spartandhp&fullscreen=true#image=2

Speaking of liars.
better read this quickly before the tide comes in.


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## woody69 (Sep 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That's the entire problem...It doesn't deliver Brexit!
		
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Yes it does, legally. It might not be a particularly favourable version, but it 100% does deliver Brexit.


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## woody69 (Sep 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It's not immigration per se that's the problem! It's uncontrolled immigration!

The vast majority of those non-EU immigrants satisfied set criteria that the UK can change according to its needs. Freedom of movement means that EVERY EU citizen is entitled to come to UK - so that's 'uncontrolled'!
		
Click to expand...

Yes, freedom of movement does mean that every EU citizen is entitled to come to the UK, but the UK government could have simply followed the European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC, on immigrants entering, but we didn't. The UK is not in the Schengen Area so they have to pass passport control. The UK Government could have registered their entry and carried out the required checks to make sure if they do not have a job or cannot support themselves they are repatriated to the home country.

It could easily be "controlled" but for whatever reason, the UK Government didn't follow it.

You could argue there is "uncontrolled" immigration for the 3 months they are here, but I am not sure that is a particularly valid argument. It has been shown that EU nationals generally contribute more to the UK economy than they take out.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

Peston - So to reinforce what I said about the gravity of tomorrowâ€™s vote, rumours swirling that Cummings wants to lose (I am not persuaded!) so he can purge Grieve and other rebel Tories and then take on Corbynâ€™s Labour before 17 October EU council...
He may now feel this the best platform to honour 
@BorisJohnson
 pledge to leave EU by 31 October. This quite the game of chicken. What is clear to me is events will move very fast if Johnson loses tomorrow.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

In a nutshell, here is the dilemma for Tory rebels and the opposition Labour Party. If they lose vote tomorrow, they lose their best chance of blocking no deal. And if they win, Johnson will say they have undermined him and forced him to hold general election on a day before... 17 Oct EU council. In my estimation he actively wants to fight Labour and a disunited opposition, so long as they trigger it and he is seen to be resisting - so that he can claim he is only going back to country to honour the peopleâ€™s earlier vote for Brexit. This may be... a bluff. But it does not feel it. Because Johnson only has a future in 10 Downing Street if he marginalises the Brexit Party and if he secures a working majority. Otherwise he will be the lamest of lame duck PMs and one with minimal political life expectancy


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

A problem for an 
@PhilipHammondUK
 or 
@DavidGauke
 who may embrace being kicked out of Tory party to run as an independent candidate in looming general election is they canâ€™t brand themselves as â€œIndependent Conservativeâ€ on ballot paper, Electoral Commission tells me. Unless... that is they were given permission to create a new party called the â€œIndependent Conservativesâ€, or something similar. But they might not get permission. And anyway there probably isnâ€™t time for them to jump through all the hoops to do that, before the likely October election


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

Whatever happened to this crew https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/949306/Brexit-News-Nicola-Sturgeon-Autonomy-EU

Seems they all have a bit of a problem.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			In a nutshell, here is the dilemma for Tory rebels and the opposition Labour Party. If they lose vote tomorrow, they lose their best chance of blocking no deal. And if they win, Johnson will say they have undermined him and forced him to hold general election on a day before... 17 Oct EU council. In my estimation he actively wants to fight Labour and a disunited opposition, so long as they trigger it and he is seen to be resisting - so that he can claim he is only going back to country to honour the peopleâ€™s earlier vote for Brexit. This may be... a bluff. But it does not feel it. Because Johnson only has a future in 10 Downing Street if he marginalises the Brexit Party and if he secures a working majority. Otherwise he will be the lamest of lame duck PMs and one with minimal political life expectancy
		
Click to expand...

I think you are dead right. Boris has hung his career on getting the UK out of the EU on Oct 31st. If he doesn't then he is done. A GE suits him. It gives him a chance to get a majority again, ditch the DUP, strengthen his position. He will fancy his chances against Corbyn, he is good on the road.

I'm not sure why so many are putting all of their energies into blocking no deal when they have no alternative to it. I also think the best chance of avoiding no deal is for Boris to run with no deal. The EU only have to move a mm or 2 and everything will fall into place. They wont do that unless someone pushes them to the wire though. I don't see anything Boris is doing right now, in Parliament or with the EU as a bluff, he can't afford to bluff.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Whatever happened to this crew https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/949306/Brexit-News-Nicola-Sturgeon-Autonomy-EU

Seems they all have a bit of a problem.
		
Click to expand...



Absolutely right....

"Marty Smith a co-founder of Autonomy a new grassroots-led campaign group said that SNP policy - to be independent of the UK, but a member of the EU - was not consistent.

He pointed to the bloc's treatment of Greece, which has suffered years of austerity, and the suppression of Catalonia's independence movement, as signs of EU's lack of democracy"


I understand this view...I could never understand how a Nationalist party would want to leave one union for another. Doon explanation please?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			eh??

many people bring up the whole imigration thing as the reason to leave when infact the current Tory Gov who are using this as an excuse when they did nothing to stop it for the larger influx they could. even setting targets they missed by miles.

so what i'm saying is the Imigration is a bit of a red hearring, people who voted leave because of it were/ are conned
		
Click to expand...

You may be correct but it reinforces our view that immigration has been too high overall and politicians of all parties have let it happen.


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## patricks148 (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Whatever happened to this crew https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/949306/Brexit-News-Nicola-Sturgeon-Autonomy-EU

Seems they all have a bit of a problem.
		
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not sure they do, in fact i have never heard of any SNP supporter questioning SNP policy on the EU.


it says a 3/4 of the membership that voted for Brixit, not a 3rd voted, so could only be him and his mate


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you are dead right. Boris has hung his career on getting the UK out of the EU on Oct 31st. If he doesn't then he is done. A GE suits him. It gives him a chance to get a majority again, ditch the DUP, strengthen his position. He will fancy his chances against Corbyn, he is good on the road.

I'm not sure why so many are putting all of their energies into blocking no deal when they have no alternative to it. I also think the best chance of avoiding no deal is for Boris to run with no deal. The EU only have to move a mm or 2 and everything will fall into place. They wont do that unless someone pushes them to the wire though. I don't see anything Boris is doing right now, in Parliament or with the EU as a bluff, he can't afford to bluff.
		
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Can't take the credit, Peston analysis.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Can't take the credit, Peston analysis.
		
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Ssshhhh, take the credit


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

woody69 said:



			What they are trying to do is block leaving without a deal, not block brexit. Many of them voted in favour or Theresa May's WA. Had the ERG voted the same, we would have already left.
		
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Thats not answering my question. I asked "What deal do they want"   Blocking no deal Brexit is obviously what they keep bleating about but if they achieve that what deal would they vote for? It cant be Maybots deal as that was overwhelmingly dismissed. Come on, tell me as I can't imagine any deal that would satisfy them.


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## ger147 (Sep 2, 2019)

A big week coming up. Whether parliament manages to change the law or not to move the 31st Oct date, Boris has no future as PM with a majority of 1, especially with so many of his colleagues sitting behind him on the Tory back benches who oppose his agenda.

So there will deffo be a GE soon, the only question is will it be called this week or not...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 2, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Absolutely right....

"Marty Smith a co-founder of Autonomy a new grassroots-led campaign group said that SNP policy - to be independent of the UK, but a member of the EU - was not consistent.

He pointed to the bloc's treatment of Greece, which has suffered years of austerity, and the suppression of Catalonia's independence movement, as signs of EU's lack of democracy"


I understand this view...I could never understand how a Nationalist party would want to leave one union for another. Doon explanation please?
		
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For about the 100th time...â€¦â€¦...â€¦......â€¦...â€¦..

The UK is not a partnership of equals. England can easily out vote anything that Scotland proposes.
Remember 'Better Together' and 'The Vow'. Binned 20 hours after Indyref and we got EVEL instead.

As part of the EU we would have an equal voice and enjoy the sort of support that Ireland is getting from the EU at the mo.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

ger147 said:



			A big week coming up. Whether parliament manages to change the law or not to move the 31st Oct date, Boris has no future as PM with a majority of 1, especially with so many of his colleagues sitting behind him on the Tory back benches who oppose his agenda.

So there will deffo be a GE soon, the only question is will it be called this week or not...
		
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A general election may well give Boris a good future.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For about the 100th time...â€¦â€¦...â€¦......â€¦...â€¦..

The UK is not a partnership of equals. England can easily out vote anything that Scotland proposes.
Remember 'Better Together' and 'The Vow'. Binned 20 hours after Indyref and we got EVEL instead.

As part of the EU we would have an equal voice and enjoy the sort of support that Ireland is getting from the EU at the mo.
		
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Your problem is considering Scotland as something separate in the UNITED KINGDOM.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

Just seen some tweets/pictures from the Corbyn rally, only a few hundred there


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

Rebel Tory source tells me 12 to 16 anti-no-deal-Brexit Tory MPs â€œholding firmâ€ and still planning to vote against 
@BorisJohnson
 tomorrow, in spite of PMâ€™s threat to call election if he loses. Mostly the older rebels not cowed. â€œIt will be touch and go, but depending on... â€œwhat Labour does we can just about defeat the prime ministerâ€ said one.


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## Dando (Sep 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Just seen some tweets/pictures from the Corbyn rally, only a few hundred there 

Click to expand...

Dianne Abacus said there was 5604trillion people there but Corbyn will deny attending


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Yes, freedom of movement does mean that every EU citizen is entitled to come to the UK...

It could easily be "controlled" but for whatever reason, the UK Government didn't follow it.
...
		
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So it's NOT controlled! 

Btw. I know (and generally agree with) all the rest of the gist of your post, as I argued along similar lines pre-Referendum! 

And it's not simply the 'working' that's the issue. More 'uncontrolled' migration puts additional strain on all sorts of services, especially housing and NHS.


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats not answering my question. I asked "What deal do they want"   Blocking no deal Brexit is obviously what they keep bleating about but if they achieve that what deal would they vote for? It cant be Maybots deal as that was overwhelmingly dismissed. Come on, tell me as *I can't imagine any deal that would satisfy them.*

Click to expand...

My view is that many of them are simply using the pretext of 'No No Deal' in order to scupper Brexit entirely! They are, of course, entitled to do that, but a bit of honesty about their intentions would be preferable! So I agree with the bit in bold! It will be an 'interesting' few days in the politics game, with all sorts of manipulation being performed and deals being agreed - perhaps only to be scrapped very soon afterwards!


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## drdel (Sep 2, 2019)

Gawd Help us.  Let's have an election, get *A* government in with a majority and put this garbage to bed and move on with a bit of stability


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			My view is that many of them are simply using the pretext of 'No No Deal' in order to scupper Brexit entirely! They are, of course, entitled to do that, but a bit of honesty about their intentions would be preferable! So I agree with the bit in bold! It will be an 'interesting' few days in the politics game, with all sorts of manipulation being performed and deals being agreed - perhaps only to be scrapped very soon afterwards!
		
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I would agree that any Lib Dem, Green or SNP MP are entitled to try to scupper Brexit but any Conservative or Labour MP was elected at the last GE pledging to honour the result. If they didn't like that they should've stood as an independent or joined one of the other parties.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

PM announcement @6 .

FIirst draft of rebel alliance bill wants 2 months brexit extension, to do what his only knows.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			PM announcement @6 .

FIirst draft of rebel alliance bill wants 2 months brexit extension, to do what his only knows.
		
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To give them 2 extra months to work out the best way to stop Brexit.


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I would agree that any Lib Dem, Green or SNP MP are entitled to try to scupper Brexit but any Conservative or Labour MP was elected at the last GE pledging to honour the result. If they didn't like that they should've stood as an independent or joined one of the other parties.
		
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That would assume they have integrity though - like proper golfers do!

Integrity is not high up the 'desirable' characteristics list of many politicians! Certainly a long way below Ego and Ambition imo!


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## Fade and Die (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For about the 100th time...â€¦â€¦...â€¦......â€¦...â€¦..

The UK is not a partnership of equals. England can easily out vote anything that Scotland proposes.
Remember 'Better Together' and 'The Vow'. Binned 20 hours after Indyref and we got EVEL instead.

As part of the EU we would have an equal voice and enjoy the sort of support that Ireland is getting from the EU at the mo.
		
Click to expand...


As potentially one of the poorest nations in the EU do you really think Scotland would be on an even footing as Germany and France? ðŸ˜„ Hardly!...think you would be sat at the back with the Bulgarians and Romanians!

As for Ireland getting great support from the EU, I think that was only because the EU saw Ireland as a way of forcing the U.K. to remain. In hindsight the old Irish Teashop might regret his hard stance against the U.K. and wished he had adopted a more amelioratory approach since it is HIS country that will suffer more than any other when Britain leaves.


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## Pathetic Shark (Sep 2, 2019)

I just love this description of the "Rebel Alliance".  All they need now is to find someone called "Luke" to be involved, drive a "Wedge" between them and try and go "Solo" and we'll be on the way to the full set.
Then Boris can form a party called the First Order and we will be sorted.


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			Gawd Help us.  *Let's have an election*, get *A* government in with a majority and put this garbage to bed and move on with a bit of stability
		
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Huge doubt about whether that would solve anything! And it would simply be a re-run of the Referendum imo!


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## chrisd (Sep 2, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			As potentially one of the poorest nations in the EU do you really think Scotland would be on an even footing as Germany and France? ðŸ˜„ Hardly!...think you would be sat at the back with the Bulgarians and Romanians! 

As for Ireland getting great support from the EU, I think that was only because the EU saw Ireland as a way of forcing the U.K. to remain. In hindsight the old Irish Teashop might regret his hard stance against the U.K. and wished he had adopted a more amelioratory approach since it is HIS country that will suffer more with any other when Britain leaves.
		
Click to expand...

I found it amusing that Ireland are potentially the  biggest losers when we leave and, as you say, the Teashop plays the hardest of hardballs ðŸ˜©


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			PM announcement @6 .

FIirst draft of rebel alliance bill wants 2 months brexit extension, to do what his only knows.
		
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Never seen such faffing about every time that podium comes out. Why hasn't some bright spark painted marks on the bloody road.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

'This part of the Brexit extension bill is v. significant.  It states the EU can choose the length of the extension - without a limit - and the Prime Minister must agree to it: '

Any MP who votes for this should be totally ashamed of themselves - would hand all power over the Brexit process to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

Does every No10 statement have to have a background of angry chanting by the great unwashed?


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## ger147 (Sep 2, 2019)

So Boris' position is very clear, this is gonna be a very interesting week...


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Does every No10 statement have to have a background of angry chanting by the great unwashed?
		
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Only a couple of hundred at most going by the overhead shot. Did they not know that happy hour was starting a trend 1800 hrs just up the road.


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## chrisd (Sep 2, 2019)

Boris stands outside number 10 and delivers a speech and immediately our dear Laura ignores what he says and puts the biased BBC story on it ðŸ˜£


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Boris stands outside number 10 and delivers a speech and immediately our dear Laura ignores what he says and puts the biased BBC story on it ðŸ˜£
		
Click to expand...


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Boris stands outside number 10 and delivers a speech and immediately our dear Laura ignores what he says and puts the biased BBC story on it ðŸ˜£
		
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You dont expect a reporter to report on what was said do you. They are all desperately try to make news.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 2, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			As potentially one of the poorest nations in the EU do you really think Scotland would be on an even footing as Germany and France? ðŸ˜„ Hardly!...think you would be sat at the back with the Bulgarians and Romanians!

As for Ireland getting great support from the EU, I think that was only because the EU saw Ireland as a way of forcing the U.K. to remain. In hindsight the old Irish Teashop might regret his hard stance against the U.K. and wished he had adopted a more amelioratory approach since it is HIS country that will suffer more than any other when Britain leaves.
		
Click to expand...

If you are saying Scotland is poor how does that stack up with unionist leaders saying that we are an equal partner in the UK.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 2, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Boris stands outside number 10 and delivers a speech and immediately our dear Laura ignores what he says and puts the biased BBC story on it ðŸ˜£
		
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In your view of course.
Difficult to hear what he was saying against all the noise of the protesters.


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...
Difficult to hear what he was saying against all the noise of the protesters.
		
Click to expand...


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## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Boris stands outside number 10 and delivers a speech and immediately our dear Laura ignores what he says and puts the biased BBC story on it ðŸ˜£
		
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I must admit I tuned out as her "editorial" went off at a tangent. Haven't a clue if there was a bias or not. I want the news, not an editorial of it.


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## Dando (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In your view of course.
Difficult to hear what he was saying against all the noise of the protesters.
		
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I heard him clearly


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## chrisd (Sep 2, 2019)

Dando said:



			I heard him clearly
		
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Every word - crystal clear


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## Dando (Sep 2, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Every word - crystal clear
		
Click to expand...

Probably because we wanted to listen to him rather than act like a child and stick our fingers in our ears going la la la la


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In your view of course.
Difficult to hear what he was saying against all the noise of the protesters.
		
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Selective hearing like your selective memory.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you are saying Scotland is poor how does that stack up with unionist leaders saying that we are an equal partner in the UK.

Click to expand...

Dunno mate, did they wink as they said equal or do them air quotation things?  ðŸ¤”


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Dunno mate, did they wink as they said equal or do them air quotation things?  ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Devolved government not up to the job, who'd have thought.


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## chrisd (Sep 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Devolved government not up to the job, who'd have thought.
		
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Couldn't have guessed that one  could they ðŸ˜£ðŸ˜£


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## drdel (Sep 2, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			As potentially one of the poorest nations in the EU do you really think Scotland would be on an even footing as Germany and France? ðŸ˜„ Hardly!...think you would be sat at the back with the Bulgarians and Romanians!

As for *Ireland getting great support from the EU*, I think that was only because the EU saw Ireland as a way of forcing the U.K. to remain. In hindsight the old Irish Teashop might regret his hard stance against the U.K. and wished he had adopted a more amelioratory approach since it is HIS country that will suffer more than any other when Britain leaves.
		
Click to expand...

The basic point for Ireland to remember is that they are geographically and logistically remote from the centre of 'power'. It will be easy for the other members to ignore any infrastructure and development demands as there would be no perceived threat to their own citizens.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you are saying Scotland is poor how does that stack up with unionist leaders saying that we are an equal partner in the UK.

Click to expand...

Of course Scotland isn't an equal partner and nor should it be. Why should a country of 5 million people have as much say as a nation of 50 million?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Boris stands outside number 10 and delivers a speech and immediately our dear Laura ignores what he says and puts the biased BBC story on it ðŸ˜£
		
Click to expand...

That's why I prefer ITV and Peston.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If you are saying Scotland is poor how does that stack up with unionist leaders saying that we are an equal partner in the UK.

Click to expand...

Like I told you, Scotland is a member state of the United Kingdom.  They share the prosperity of the UK and citizens get a vote on national matters, just like the rest of us, on local matters they have more influence than the English who subsidise their special status.  Get over it and realise what a great deal you are getting, better than you would ever get from the EU.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Of course Scotland isn't an equal partner and nor should it be. Why should a country of 5 million people have as much say as a nation of 50 million?
		
Click to expand...

That was not the population difference in the two countries when the deal was struck.
BTW it is not me saying they are equal partners, I know better.
It was the unionist politicians saying it when they wanted our votes.
Are you telling me they were lying.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Just seen some tweets/pictures from the Corbyn rally, only a few hundred there 

Click to expand...

I think many stayed away with an outbreak of Remainia.


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## Old Skier (Sep 2, 2019)

Paxman Ch5' , says it all


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That was not the population difference in the two countries when the deal was struck.
BTW it is not me saying they are equal partners, I know better.
It was the unionist politicians saying it when they wanted our votes.
*Are you telling me they were lying*.

Click to expand...

Nope. I'm telling you that as a part of the union Scotland is no more significant than East Anglia, the West Midlands or the southwest of England. You bleat on about how Scotland is treated as a minor partner and I'm saying that is because it is deserved. And if an independent Scotland joined the EU it would be the same there. You wouldn't be an equal partner as you like to claim. You would be a minor voice. If you really want that then you'd better get used to being a ventriloquist dummy with a German or French hand up your bum speaking on your behalf.


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## chrisd (Sep 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nope. I'm telling you that as a part of the union Scotland is no more significant than East Anglia, the West Midlands or the southwest of England. You bleat on about how Scotland is treated as a minor partner and I'm saying that is because it is deserved. And if an independent Scotland joined the EU it would be the same there. You wouldn't be an equal partner as you like to claim. You would be a minor voice. If you really want that then you'd better get used to being a ventriloquist dummy with a German or French hand up your bum speaking on your behalf.
		
Click to expand...

Sums it up pretty good for me.

 Just add though, when we've gone there wont be any EU handouts as they've got no income to handout!


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2019)

Last two posts, brutal. ðŸ˜–ðŸ‘ðŸ˜


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## User62651 (Sep 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nope. I'm telling you that as a part of the union Scotland is no more significant than East Anglia, the West Midlands or the southwest of England. You bleat on about how Scotland is treated as a minor partner and I'm saying that is because it is deserved. And if an independent Scotland joined the EU it would be the same there. You wouldn't be an equal partner as you like to claim. You would be a minor voice. If you really want that then you'd better get used to being a ventriloquist dummy with a German or French hand up your bum speaking on your behalf.
		
Click to expand...

I really don't think you need to use this tone, comes over awfully, just so you know. Your heritage is Anglo Saxon and Norman, that's basically German and French. Your language is based largely on German and French too. Why not embrace it instead of the superiority complex and 'them and us' xenophobic rubbish. Does your arrogance knows no bounds? Mods should be all over this thread, the undertones are disgusting over numerous posts this evening.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I really don't think you need to use this tone, comes over awfully, just so you know. *Your heritage is Anglo Saxon and Norman, that's basically German and French. Your language is based largely on German and French too. Why not embrace it instead of the superiority complex* and 'them and us' xenophobic rubbish. Does your arrogance knows no bounds? Mods should be all over this thread, the undertones are disgusting over numerous posts this evening.
		
Click to expand...

Your language is based on Anglo Saxon/French as well and your heritage is Irish, Scandinavian and Anglo Saxon. Embrace it.

Guess your a Scott then. If it was the English being castigated you would be in with both feet.


----------



## chrisd (Sep 2, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I really don't think you need to use this tone, comes over awfully, just so you know. Your heritage is Anglo Saxon and Norman, that's basically German and French. Your language is based largely on German and French too. Why not embrace it instead of the superiority complex and 'them and us' xenophobic rubbish. Does your arrogance knows no bounds? Mods should be all over this thread, the undertones are disgusting over numerous posts this evening.
		
Click to expand...

 Utter rubbish


----------



## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I really don't think you need to use this tone, comes over awfully, just so you know. Your heritage is Anglo Saxon and Norman, that's basically German and French. Your language is based largely on German and French too. Why not embrace it instead of the superiority complex and 'them and us' xenophobic rubbish. Does your arrogance knows no bounds? Mods should be all over this thread, the undertones are disgusting over numerous posts this evening.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting that you can read a "tone" into a written post. My heritage has nothing to do with it, nor does what my language (or equally your's) is based on. There's no superiority complex or them and us in my post. And if you consider it arrogance to point out that you aren't an equal partner in the union based on population size and wouldn't be if an independent Scotland joined the EU then I would suggest that you stop being such a delicate flower and should accept reality. There's nothing xenophobic about my post I'm simply pointing out that you are a minor partner in the UK and would be an even more minor partner as an independent country in the EU. If you're that offended then report my post and let the mods deal with it.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 2, 2019)

More evidence that the May administration was a Remainer ramp disguised by empty commitments to Leave. Worst govt of modern times.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1168481026873729025


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## User62651 (Sep 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Your language is based on Anglo Saxon/French as well and your heritage is Irish, Scandinavian and Anglo Saxon. Embrace it.

Guess your a Scott then. If it was the English being castigated you would be in with both feet.
		
Click to expand...

Expect better of you Brian.


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## Dando (Sep 2, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I really don't think you need to use this tone, comes over awfully, just so you know. Your heritage is Anglo Saxon and Norman, that's basically German and French. Your language is based largely on German and French too. Why not embrace it instead of the superiority complex and 'them and us' xenophobic rubbish. Does your arrogance knows no bounds? Mods should be all over this thread, the undertones are disgusting over numerous posts this evening.
		
Click to expand...

Some of the comments and â€œtoneâ€ by your fellow remoamers has been a lot worse


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Expect better of you Brian.
		
Click to expand...

Then look to your own posts and dont  patronise.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Interesting that you can read a "tone" into a written post. My heritage has nothing to do with it, nor does what my language (or equally your's) is based on. There's no superiority complex or them and us in my post. And if you consider it arrogance to point out that you aren't an equal partner in the union based on population size and wouldn't be if an independent Scotland joined the EU then I would suggest that you stop being such a delicate flower and should accept reality. There's nothing xenophobic about my post I'm simply pointing out that you are a minor partner in the UK and would be an even more minor partner as an independent country in the EU. If you're that offended then report my post and let the mods deal with it.
		
Click to expand...

Goodness me, and you think there is nothing Xenophobic about your post.
Never reported anyone to the mods, sorely tempted a few times though.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me, and you think there is nothing Xenophobic about your post.
Never reported anyone to the mods, sorely tempted a few times though.

Click to expand...

Didnt know people could report themselves.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me, and you think there is nothing Xenophobic about your post.
Never reported anyone to the mods, sorely tempted a few times though.

Click to expand...

So go for it then. There was nothing xenophobic about my post. How is it xenophobic to point out that population-wise Scotland is no more important than some other areas of the UK? You have an over-inflated idea of the importance of Scotland.


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## Pants (Sep 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That was not the population difference in the two countries when the deal was struck.
		
Click to expand...

Forgive me if I've got it wrong (I'm not really up to speed on Scottish "politics") but are you saying that since some deal or other was struck, the populations of Scotland and/or England have changed dramatically?  Is this a case of many Scots dying off before procreating, or moving away from the country of their birth?

Reminds me of the old joke.  What trait binds Aussies and Scots?  They all insist that they come from the best country in the world - but they won't go back there to live 

Mind you, their chips are about the same size


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## Pants (Sep 2, 2019)

And, it hasn't gone unnoticed that of the most vociferous "remainers" on the Forum, it seems that a dis-proportionally large percentage of them seem to have some Scottish connections.


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## Pants (Sep 2, 2019)

Apologies to Foxy (AKA Which Tyler - leader of the Pedants Revolt) for starting a post with "And"!!!!!!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 2, 2019)

Pants said:



			Forgive me if I've got it wrong (I'm not really up to speed on Scottish "politics") but are you saying that since some deal or other was struck, the populations of Scotland and/or England have changed dramatically?  Is this a case of many Scots dying off before procreating, or moving away from the country of their birth?

*Reminds me of the old joke.  What trait binds Aussies and Scots?  They all insist that they come from the best country in the world - but they won't go back there to live *

Mind you, their chips are about the same size 

Click to expand...

And of course the definition of a well-balanced Scotsman. One who has a chip on each shoulder.


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## Pants (Sep 2, 2019)

I didn't mean to start a string of Scottish jokes!  Lordy lordy!  Where would that end!!!!!


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## backwoodsman (Sep 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Boris stands outside number 10 and delivers a speech and immediately our dear Laura ignores what he says and puts the biased BBC story on it ðŸ˜£
		
Click to expand...

I dont normally get involved in the political threads but this post intrigues me. I watched Boris' speech, and "dear Laura's" comment. And am wondering what was the "biased BBC story" that she told? Genuinely interested; elucidate if you care to.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 3, 2019)

Gentlemen of the Forum

Play nice ðŸ‘ 

Thank you


----------



## robinthehood (Sep 3, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			I dont normally get involved in the political threads but this post intrigues me. I watched Boris' speech, and "dear Laura's" comment. And am wondering what was the "biased BBC story" that she told? Genuinely interested; elucidate if you care to.
		
Click to expand...

Yes same here,  she has certainly made a name for herself with brexit, but I can't say she comes accros as especially biased.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Anyone who sees bias in Laura's reporting probably thinks that Andrew Neil is superb.

Looks like Dominic Cummings is now running the UK.
Houst of Lords and a cabinet post on the way.


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## chrisd (Sep 3, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			I dont normally get involved in the political threads but this post intrigues me. I watched Boris' speech, and "dear Laura's" comment. And am wondering what was the "biased BBC story" that she told? Genuinely interested; elucidate if you care to.
		
Click to expand...

I've watched the BBC news for ever and in the Brexit matter the BBC clearly have been biased towards remain. Over the last few weeks they have started pretty  much all their bulletins with an "in the case of a no deal brexit" story and imo have never sought to balance their story with any benefit that leaving may bring, it has been a re run of project fear. After the speech, which I thought Boris clearly said that no one wants a GE she straight away poo poo'd that and went off on a narrative imo that was in direct contrast to the speech, something shes been doing for a couple of years  now.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

from the party that don't want a delay, just cancel altogether :

Lib Dum Brexit spokesman Tom Brake: "We're in the middle of a Brexit crisis. The idea that embarking on a five week election campaign would do anything to resolve that is for the birds. It's simply a delaying tactic on the part of the Prime Minister."


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## chrisd (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone who sees bias in Laura's reporting probably thinks that Andrew Neil is superb.

.
		
Click to expand...

Something of a sweeping statement, I actually don't think he's superb.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

Remainers would never win a general election, you have labour who have no clear position, lib dems who"s leader is on record as saying she would not even respect the result of a second referendum unless the result was to stay, the other party's are not worth talking about tbh. An alliance between conservative and the brexit party would sweep an election hands down, you even have Tony Blair saying it's an elephant trap


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## User62651 (Sep 3, 2019)

So the little gang of leavers, the usual suspects, on here have had a pop at the Irish, the Scots, the Germans, the French and even Australians....and that's just the last 24 hours. Who's next?

But they're not xenophobes..... They're patriots.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So the little gang of leavers, the usual suspects, on here have had a pop at the Irish, the Scots, the Germans, the French and even Australians....and that's just the last 24 hours. Who's next?

But they're not xenophobes..... They're patriots.

Click to expand...

Next...people who are not like us.


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## backwoodsman (Sep 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I've watched the BBC news for ever and in the Brexit matter the BBC clearly have been biased towards remain. Over the last few weeks they have started pretty  much all their bulletins with an "in the case of a no deal brexit" story and imo have never sought to balance their story with any benefit that leaving may bring, it has been a re run of project fear. After the speech, which I thought Boris clearly said that no one wants a GE she straight away poo poo'd that and went off on a narrative imo that was in direct contrast to the speech, something shes been doing for a couple of years  now.
		
Click to expand...

Ok ta.

But have to say that having listened to Boris,  I thought his speech was as barely veiled a threat of a  GE as it was possible to give without actually saying  the words.  And, to me,  dear Laura, was wasting her breath in explaining that to us. 

(And as someone who voted remain, but who wants the whole darn mess sorted, I think he's right to threaten his own side with it)


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Next...people who are not like us.

Click to expand...

No one wants to be like you.  Now listen to the Mods and stop stirring it, you are behind most of the trouble here with your fishing expeditions


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So the little gang of leavers, the usual suspects, on here have had a pop at the Irish, the Scots, the Germans, the French and even Australians....and that's just the last 24 hours. Who's next?

But they're not xenophobes..... They're patriots.

Click to expand...

Have they, really!


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 3, 2019)

OK some of you clever guys on here. Eg Hobbit, socket R, Colchester but totally unbiased.

In no more than 5 sentences kindly explain what is going to happen today please. Many thanks


----------



## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			OK some of you clever guys on here. Eg Hobbit, socket R, Colchester but totally unbiased.

In no more than 5 sentences kindly explain what is going to happen today please. Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

One sentence - no-one knows...

The idea is the "rebels" are going to try and pass a law to move the Brexit Date to 31st Jan 2020, include the text of the letter Boris has to write to ask for the extension and also let the EU pick another date further into the future if the EU so wish.

And no-one knows if they will succeed or not.


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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

Never mind all this Brexit stuff, how is Dilyn settling in??


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## Mudball (Sep 3, 2019)

I know this is a Brexshit thread... but what is the real state of this country. Is no one affected by a news story like this 
(Food banks increasing in schools for pupils' families https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49515117 )

As a nation we have given up on our young ones - who will be part of the post-Brexit world that is not of their choosing. In a world where we may have a smaller role than the past .. while national scandals rock on we merrily follow our pied piper ..


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			OK some of you clever guys on here. Eg Hobbit, socket R, Colchester but totally unbiased.

In no more than 5 sentences kindly explain what is going to happen today please. Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Well the Tory rebels will have the whip removed and be de-selected from the party, I'm sure most will toe the line but you will still have a few who wont, there are labour MP's (alot of them) who dont actually believe in what Corbyn is doing. My feeling is either a general election will be called tonight, or if this legislation does go through, the government can delay in sending it for royal assent. Also even if legally required to ask for an extension, there are Euro sceptic EU members who could veto, an extension requires agreement  of all 27 member states. There are things going on behind the scenes. Boris has strong cards up his sleeve


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I know this is a Brexshit thread... but what is the real state of this country. Is no one affected by a news story like this 
(Food banks increasing in schools for pupils' families https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49515117 )

As a nation we have given up on our young ones - who will be part of the post-Brexit world that is not of their choosing. In a world where we may have a smaller role than the past .. while national scandals rock on we merrily follow our pied piper ..
		
Click to expand...

Thread is about brexit, not food banks ðŸ‘


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I really don't think you need to use this tone, comes over awfully, just so you know. Your heritage is Anglo Saxon and Norman, that's basically German and French. Your language is based largely on German and French too. Why not embrace it instead of the superiority complex and 'them and us' xenophobic rubbish. Does your arrogance knows no bounds? Mods should be all over this thread, the undertones are disgusting over numerous posts this evening.
		
Click to expand...

What a load of twaddle! 
Btw. Though Anglo Saxon is certainly correct, you should dig a bit further than simply 'where the last invasion came from' to determine real roots! So there's more Nordic/Viking heritage in UK than 'plain' 'French'! Plus there's a lot of Celt, Pict, Breton (Celtic sub-group) scattered around 'these isles'!


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## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

BREAKING: Nigel Farage confirms Brexit Party wonâ€™t stand against Conservative candidates in an election if Boris Johnson promises to leave the EU without a deal. â€œOf course weâ€™ll put country before party.â€ Massively helps the Tory vote, while the opposition is divided  
This would of course mean abandoning any attempt to renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement, which would save everyone a lot of time and effort anyway. And I guess 
@brexitparty_uk
 would want something in return for clearing the field..


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Gentlemen of the Forum

Play nice ðŸ‘

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Spoilsport! 

Btw. The 'Gentlemen of the Forum' have avoided this thread for some time!


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			BREAKING: Nigel Farage confirms Brexit Party wonâ€™t stand against Conservative candidates in an election if Boris Johnson promises to leave the EU without a deal. â€œOf course weâ€™ll put country before party.â€ Massively helps the Tory vote, while the opposition is divided  
This would of course mean abandoning any attempt to renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement, which would save everyone a lot of time and effort anyway. And I guess 
@brexitparty_uk
 would want something in return for clearing the field..
		
Click to expand...

Hes been saying this for the last 2 weeks, not sure this is breaking news ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I've watched the BBC news for ever and in the Brexit matter the BBC clearly have been biased towards remain. Over the last few weeks they have started pretty  much all their bulletins with an "in the case of a no deal brexit" story and imo have never sought to balance their story with any benefit that leaving may bring, it has been a re run of project fear. After the speech, which I thought Boris clearly said that no one wants a GE she straight away poo poo'd that and went off on a narrative imo that was in direct contrast to the speech, something shes been doing for a couple of years  now.
		
Click to expand...

I've also watched BBC for a considerable time (decades) as the 'neutral voice' to most controversies (ones about the Beeb are excluded!).
I was obviously watching a different broadcast, as 'Our Vicky' was the commentator in the one I saw (thru t'internet) comenting on BoJo's speech and the associated 'Drinks Party' (including mentioning some of those who were absent). I thought it was pretty neutral - as is the Beeb's stated role. I normally find that those that criticise the Beeb are much more likely to be biased (one way or the other) and simply object to facts that undermine their particular view - whether that's Left v Right, or, in this case, Leave or Remain!


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No one wants to be like you.  Now listen to the Mods and stop stirring it, *you are behind most of the trouble here* with your fishing expeditions
		
Click to expand...

Now that really IS Twaddle! DiT's posts are simply 'noise', virtually unrelated to the actual thread - but harking back to a now defunct one!


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## chrisd (Sep 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I've also watched BBC for a considerable time (decades) as the 'neutral voice' to most controversies (ones about the Beeb are excluded!).
I was obviously watching a different broadcast, as 'Our Vicky' was the commentator in the one I saw (thru t'internet) comenting on BoJo's speech and the associated 'Drinks Party' (including mentioning some of those who were absent). I thought it was pretty neutral - as is the Beeb's stated role. I normally find that those that criticise the Beeb are much more likely to be biased (one way or the other) and simply object to facts that undermine their particular view - whether that's Left v Right, or, in this case, Leave or Remain!
		
Click to expand...

You're entitled to you're opinion as I am to mine, I find that these days they are biased on a number of things eg Brexit, climate change and rarely put forward a view opposite to their own mantra. Most people are biased "one way or another" and that is our entitlement as individuals.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Now that really IS Twaddle! DiT's posts are simply 'noise', virtually unrelated to the actual thread - but harking back to a now defunct one!
		
Click to expand...

You seem to be very 'Twaddleistic' today


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## robinthehood (Sep 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You're entitled to you're opinion as I am to mine, I find that these days they are biased on a number of things eg Brexit, climate change and rarely put forward a view opposite to their own mantra. Most people are biased "one way or another" and that is our entitlement as individuals.
		
Click to expand...

How are they biased on climate change? You are aware it's real and should be doing everything you can to help reduce its effects? I mean its the most serious issue there is.


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You're entitled to you're opinion as I am to mine, I find that these days they are biased on a number of things eg Brexit, *climate change* and rarely put forward a view opposite to their own mantra. Most people are biased "one way or another" and that is our entitlement as individuals.
		
Click to expand...

How are they 'biased regarding climate change'? Do you not believe the overwhelming evidence that climate change is having an adverse effect on the planet?


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## robinthehood (Sep 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			How are they 'biased regarding climate change'? Do you not believe the overwhelming evidence that climate change is having an adverse effect on the planey?
		
Click to expand...

What's a planey?


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem to be very 'Twaddleistic' today
		
Click to expand...

I believe/hope you mean't! "'Twaddle'-istic"!

And that's probably because there appears to be so much of it about!


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What's a planey?
		
Click to expand...

 It's a Planet without any 'T(ea?)'  'Y'?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			BREAKING: Nigel Farage confirms Brexit Party wonâ€™t stand against Conservative candidates in an election if Boris Johnson promises to leave the EU without a deal. â€œOf course weâ€™ll put country before party.â€ Massively helps the Tory vote, while the opposition is divided 
This would of course mean abandoning any attempt to renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement, which would save everyone a lot of time and effort anyway. And I guess
@brexitparty_uk
would want something in return for clearing the field..
		
Click to expand...

Cue picture of mini BJ sitting in Farage's top jacket pocket.


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## drdel (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Cue picture of mini BJ sitting in Farage's top jacket pocket.

Click to expand...

Having widely criticised BJ, TM and JC who, from what Party, do you think is capable of moving the UK forward?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

The scale of Hammondâ€™s collusion with Jeremy Corbyn emerges.  Did he also collude with Barnier?
Philip Hammond says Jeremy Corbyn made a private commitment not to vote for a general election until legislation to block no deal is locked down â€˜I hope he will honour that pledgeâ€™


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The scale of Hammondâ€™s collusion with Jeremy Corbyn emerges.  Did he also collude with Barnier?
Philip Hammond says Jeremy Corbyn made a private commitment not to vote for a general election until legislation to block no deal is locked down â€˜I hope he will honour that pledgeâ€™
		
Click to expand...

Heâ€™s a politician of course he wonâ€™t.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

Labourâ€™s current positions: - For Brexit, but also against it - For a deal, but not this one - For a referendum, but also against one - For an election, but not right now !


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## adam6177 (Sep 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			How are they 'biased regarding climate change'? Do you not believe the overwhelming evidence that climate change is having an adverse effect on the planet?
		
Click to expand...

probably worth a thread all on its own.... and some good "arguments" to be heard. To sum up in one sentence - do I believe in climate change?  Yes, but I dont believe that we are speeding up the process in the way the mainstream media is leading us to believe.

As for brexit..... I'm so so tired of it now, I just hope we leave with no deal on October 31st.


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## Mudball (Sep 3, 2019)

On the lighter side.. could not put it any better.. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1168791087873441793


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 3, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			probably worth a thread all on its own.... and some good "arguments" to be heard. To sum up in one sentence - do I believe in climate change?  Yes, but I dont believe that we are speeding up the process in the way the mainstream media is leading us to believe.

As for brexit..... I'm so so tired of it now, I just hope we leave with no deal on October 31st.
		
Click to expand...

All news media now have a tag line at the end of the item ( this could/may be due to climate change)
If someone leaves the bath running and floods the house ( it could be due to climate change/Brexit )
Itâ€™s getting silly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2019)

Rees-Mogg - truly an utterly complacent, arrogant and supercilious whatever-bag

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...es-mogg-doctor-shameful-no-deal-drug-concerns

My wife's cancer drug is manufactured in Hungary.  She has concerns as she is very brand sensitive. 

And don't dare give me any silly Project Fear dismissals.  My wifes concerns are *real* and the government is doing *NOTHING* to allay them other than have the likes of Rees-Mogg talk the disgraceful and insulting tripe that he does - to people that actually understand the situation and the risks - and in doing so dismisses the concerns of such as my wife and many, many more as unfounded.  But he does NOTHING to substantiate his smug statements - never mind accept and apologise for not telling us the truth about a No Deal exit as it might well impact such as medical supplies.

Release the risk assessments, let the people know.  The Will of the People is practically worthless if it is uninformed.

Totally desperate state of affairs


----------



## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rees-Mogg - truly an utterly complacent, arrogant and supercilious whatever-bag

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...es-mogg-doctor-shameful-no-deal-drug-concerns 

My wife's cancer drug is manufactured in Hungary.  She has concerns as she is very brand sensitive.  I look forward to the airdrop to our local GP practice and pharmacy.
		
Click to expand...

Old news again, government has made provisions to fly in drugs if necessary, I'm sure they will be direct to airports first before going on a courier service. This sort of action will most likely not even be necessary and may I ask, why would you want to be part of an organisation that would willingly delay drugs going through ports ? If that's the sort of people the EU are, everyone ought to be taking a long hard look at them.


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## woody69 (Sep 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats not answering my question. I asked "What deal do they want"   Blocking no deal Brexit is obviously what they keep bleating about but if they achieve that what deal would they vote for? It cant be Maybots deal as that was overwhelmingly dismissed. Come on, tell me as I can't imagine any deal that would satisfy them.
		
Click to expand...

Not really. As I previously said most of the Tory 'rebels' voted in favour of May's Withdrawal Agreement. (And if the ERG had done the same, the UK would already have left.)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Old news again, government has made provisions to fly in drugs if necessary, I'm sure they will be direct to airports first before going on a courier service. This sort of action will most likely not even be necessary and may I ask, why would you want to be part of an organisation that would willingly delay drugs going through ports ? If that's the sort of people the EU are, everyone ought to be taking a long hard look at them.
		
Click to expand...

Did you not read what I said - I do not want to hear any more Project Fear tripe coming from Leave voters.  We need proper information and acceptance of issues from the government.

My wife's fears are real and the government denies any real risk or potential issues - and says airdrops for drugs...?  really?  What the hell is that about.  Where were we told that?

Publish the risk assessments and be damned.  Leaving on No Deal is the Will of the People my backside. 

An utter disgrace of a situation the country is now in - an obsession with leaving on 31/10 exacerbated by what in other situations or with an individual would be considered an unhealthy obsession and one that would be abnormal.  That leaving on 31/10 is being pursued by the government with a fanatical obsession should surely be disturbing to all of us - but no - Leave supporters are happy to o along with this utter madness - dismissing along the way as Project Fear any and all concerns raised.  How callous.  How sad.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did you not read what I said - I do not want to hear any more Project Fear tripe coming from Leave voters.  We need proper information and acceptance of issues.  

My wife's fears are real and the government denies and risk or potential issues - and says airdrops for drugs...?  really?  What the hell is that about.  Where were we told that?

Publish the risk assessments and be damned.  Leaving is the Will of the People my backside.
		
Click to expand...

Air drops ? They wont be parachuting pharmaceuticals in. They can get them in no problem by air if need be, the very fact that people are saying this is project fear by remainers. More than the EU produce medicines, there will not be people dying because of the EU. I'm sure we can say this for a fact.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Air drops ? They wont be parachuting pharmaceuticals in. They can get them in no problem by air if need be, the very fact that people are saying this is project fear by remainers. More than the EU produce medicines, *there will not be people dying because of the EU. I'm sure we can say this for a fact*.
		
Click to expand...

Really - but you are not certain.  There you go.  But you are right - but there might be some dying as a result of the actions of the UK.  You couldn't actually give a monkeys as long as we leave on 31/10.

You think leave voters can get angry - well so can those of us with great concerns about the impact on us all and others of leaving with No Deal.

And I am out of this again - I am frankly sick to the teeth of our government and sort of blind support they are getting from so many.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 3, 2019)

An utter disgrace of a situation the country is now in - an obsession with leaving on 31/10[/QUOTE]

Ahem, you seem to have a head of steam up and have forgotten that we were supposed to have left on the 31st March !!!!!!


----------



## chrisd (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I am out of this again - I am frankly sick to the teeth of our government and sort of blind support they are getting from so many.
		
Click to expand...

The "so many" might possibly be the majority of voters who voted leave, and whose wishes are being ignored by the politicians who were commanded by them to get us out of the EU


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rees-Mogg - truly an utterly complacent, arrogant and supercilious whatever-bag

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...es-mogg-doctor-shameful-no-deal-drug-concerns

My wife's cancer drug is manufactured in Hungary.  She has concerns as she is very brand sensitive.

And don't dare give me any silly Project Fear dismissals.  My wifes concerns are *real* and the government is doing *NOTHING* to allay them other than have the likes of Rees-Mogg talk the disgraceful and insulting tripe that he does - to people that actually understand the situation and the risks - and in doing so dismisses the concerns of such as my wife and many, many more as unfounded.  But he does NOTHING to substantiate his smug statements - never mind accept and apologise for not telling us the truth about a No Deal exit as it might well impact such as medical supplies.

Release the risk assessments, let the people know.  The Will of the People is practically worthless if it is uninformed.

Totally desperate state of affairs
		
Click to expand...

I understand your concerns but you need to do a bit of research and try and ally your wife's concerns. The UK have put plans in place to ensure emergency flights out of Maastricht purely for medical supplies, and that's aside of the new ferry routes purely for food and medical supplies, should it be necessary. All the info is out there if you look for it.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1168830032682377216


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## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

Intel from govt source re the rebel meeting. Says of Hammond: "He explicitly mentioned EU legal services and their advice on this bill. The very clear implication from his comments was that his involvement in drafting the bill had been done in conjunction with the Commission"


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			OK some of you clever guys on here. Eg Hobbit, socket R, Colchester but totally unbiased.

In no more than 5 sentences kindly explain what is going to happen today please. Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

I don't think any of us are unbiased, nor am I sure of our intelligence.

Gut feel. The Oliver Letwin/Corbyn amendment will go through comfortably. The UK govt will attempt to call an election but the new-ish fixed term parliament bill won't let them do it without parliamentary approval, which I expect Labour will not support = a puppet govt, with the "shop floor bossing the management."

A complete and utter mess.


----------



## Parsaregood (Sep 3, 2019)

Hammond is in bed with the EU Commission, of that there is no doubt. Also who is funding Gina Miller. Has there been a mention of the source of her money


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## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Hammond is in bed with the EU Commission, of that there is no doubt. Also who is funding Gina Miller. Has there been a mention of the source of her money
		
Click to expand...

Crowd funding I believe, so tax payers


----------



## drdel (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really - but you are not certain.  There you go.  But you are right - but there might be some dying as a result of the actions of the UK.  You couldn't actually give a monkeys as long as we leave on 31/10.

You think leave voters can get angry - well so can those of us with great concerns about the impact on us all and others of leaving with No Deal.

And I am out of this again - I am frankly sick to the teeth of our government and sort of blind support they are getting from so many.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure everyone on the Forum sympathises and empathises with you and your wife's concerns. I think you will find that the issue is recognised and well understood by the drugs companies and medical professionals. It is unfair to claim no one gives a monkey's about your wife because we disagree on a logistics issue due to Brexit.

I'll bet there will be solutions in place.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Air drops ? They wont be parachuting pharmaceuticals in. They can get them in no problem by air if need be, the very fact that people are saying this is project fear by remainers. More than the EU produce medicines, there will not be people dying because of the EU. I'm sure we can say this for a fact.
		
Click to expand...

One hopes the government planning on air supplies is a bit better than the sea routes.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...-brexit-ferries-contract-cancelled/ar-BBTmsVp


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## User62651 (Sep 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think any of us are unbiased, nor am I sure of our intelligence.

Gut feel. The Oliver Letwin/Corbyn amendment will go through comfortably. The UK govt will attempt to call an election but the new-ish fixed term parliament bill won't let them do it without parliamentary approval, which I expect Labour will not support = a puppet govt, with the "shop floor bossing the management."

A complete and utter mess.
		
Click to expand...

Does it stay like that, kicking the brexit can down the road until 2022 when we must have another GE?


----------



## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

As I understand it, if on Wednesday Labour blocks 14 October general election as 
@jeremycorbyn
 implies it will, 
@BorisJohnson
 would find a way to bring back the vote on Thursday and has a device such that he would only require simple majority - not two-thirds - to secure election


----------



## woody69 (Sep 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1168830032682377216

Click to expand...

That just says, if the EU proposes an extension we have 2 days to agree to it, or not. If we don't obviously there is no extension and we leave.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

Sources say that in his meeting with the Prime Minister this morning, Philip Hammond let it slip in the heat of the argument that he had received legal advice. Speaking in the heat of the moment in a fiery conversation, the former Chancellor cracked out the line _â€œwell the EUâ€™s legal department have told meâ€¦â€ _when defending his decision to in effect vote no confidence in the Government. _It was suspected by many Brexiteers that he was working in concert with Barnier, bold of Hammond to just come out and say itâ€¦_ 

So basically the EU are never going to negotiate and if we can't get no deal through we're going to be stuck in Brexit time warp for ever....


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did you not read what I said - I do not want to hear any more Project Fear tripe coming from Leave voters.  We need proper information and acceptance of issues from the government.

My wife's fears are real and the government denies any real risk or potential issues - and says airdrops for drugs...?  really?  What the hell is that about.  Where were we told that?

Publish the risk assessments and be damned.  Leaving on No Deal is the Will of the People my backside.

An utter disgrace of a situation the country is now in - an obsession with leaving on 31/10 exacerbated by what in other situations or with an individual would be considered an unhealthy obsession and one that would be abnormal.  That leaving on 31/10 is being pursued by the government with a fanatical obsession should surely be disturbing to all of us - but no - Leave supporters are happy to o along with this utter madness - dismissing along the way as Project Fear any and all concerns raised.  How callous.  How sad.
		
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Do you believe that nothing at all will enter the country for 3-4 months after we actually leave? For the first 1-3 weeks I can see problems at Dover and perhaps one or two other ports. It may delay a vehicle by a day or two but products will still move in or out. Tablets have a very long shelf life, they will not go off due to a 2 day delay at the Tunnel and the NHS will be holding a great stock than a few days worth. In a worst case scenario they will fly them into an airport where they deal with customs documents every day in volume and there will be no delay.

The only areas of concern, IMO, are fresh produce and companies working with JIT systems. If you think logically the rest will all be manageable. That people are using medicine to scaremonger is pretty appalling.


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Does it stay like that, kicking the brexit can down the road until 2022 when we must have another GE?
		
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If the amendment goes through, and Boris is stopped from calling an election, the amendment is clear. Boris must go to the EU and ask for an extension.

And if the rumours are true about Hammond's meeting/advice from the EU, the EU will grant it. After that, the EU controls the UK/Brexit process till at least the next election, whenever that is.

Bearing in mind the EU won't reopen the WA nor move on the Backstop, and the MP's won't back the WA you tell me what will happen.


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## Dando (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really - but you are not certain.  There you go.  But you are right - but there might be some dying as a result of the actions of the UK.  You couldn't actually give a monkeys as long as we leave on 31/10.

You think leave voters can get angry - well so can those of us with great concerns about the impact on us all and others of leaving with No Deal.

And I am out of this again - I am frankly sick to the teeth of our government and sort of blind support they are getting from so many.
		
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I bet youâ€™re not out of this for long just like the last time, and the time before that and the time before that!


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## robinthehood (Sep 3, 2019)

No majority for the government.  Oh dear.


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			...The UK have put plans in place to ensure emergency flights *out of Maastricht* purely for medical supplies...
		
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Without trying to trivialise the situation, I find that rather ironic!

However, with proper planning, and they've had 3 years to do it, there should be no need for 'emergency' flights in the first place!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Political action is above the law.
Says the government's legal team in Edinburgh.
Wow.


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## User62651 (Sep 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			What a load of twaddle!
Btw. Though Anglo Saxon is certainly correct, you should dig a bit further than simply 'where the last invasion came from' to determine real roots! So there's more Nordic/Viking heritage in UK than 'plain' 'French'! Plus there's a lot of Celt, Pict, Breton (Celtic sub-group) scattered around 'these isles'!
		
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I've always wanted a twaddle insult! At last.
I was aware of the Viking/Celt/Pict thing, Cornwall's full of Venetians too from the tin mining/trading days I believe. Just your man had a pop at Germans and French specifically.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rees-Mogg - truly an utterly complacent, arrogant and supercilious whatever-bag

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...es-mogg-doctor-shameful-no-deal-drug-concerns

My wife's cancer drug is manufactured in Hungary.  She has concerns as she is very brand sensitive.

And don't dare give me any silly Project Fear dismissals.  My wifes concerns are *real* and the government is doing *NOTHING* to allay them other than have the likes of Rees-Mogg talk the disgraceful and insulting tripe that he does - to people that actually understand the situation and the risks - and in doing so dismisses the concerns of such as my wife and many, many more as unfounded.  *But he does NOTHING to substantiate his smug statements* - never mind accept and apologise for not telling us the truth about a No Deal exit as it might well impact such as medical supplies.

Release the risk assessments, let the people know.  The Will of the People is practically worthless if it is uninformed.

Totally desperate state of affairs
		
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Any chance that you could do something to substantiate your wife's concerns that she might not get her medicines; any chance that you could prove the Government is doing nothing; any chance that you could prove Rees-Mogg is wrong; any chance you could prove the medicines will not get through?

Because without that you are exactly what you accuse Rees-Mogg of being, which, to be honest you have been throughout the entire course of this thread.

Obviously I won't get an answer to this as I see you are out again...


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## Tashyboy (Sep 3, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So the little gang of leavers, the usual suspects, on here have had a pop at the Irish, the Scots, the Germans, the French and even Australians....and that's just the last 24 hours. Who's next?

But they're not xenophobes..... They're patriots.

Click to expand...

I thought they were dimwits


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## IanM (Sep 3, 2019)

Interesting to see EU Federalists in the HoC working to remove our bargaining position, just as the previous PM had done.

Remember me saying the morning after the Referendum that we wouldn't be allowed to leave? I was right then, and I'm still right now.  Sadly.


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## Dando (Sep 3, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I thought they were dimwits
		
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You forgot â€œswivel eyed loonsâ€


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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

Not sure of the exact numbers but the Lib Dems must be loving this session of parliament, if it runs until 2022 they could end up the official opposition at this rate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I thought they were dimwits
		
Click to expand...

Get the record straight 
Only the ones who believed the banana and and kipper fillet pillows EU laws, hope that does not include you.

Three times now our leader has said that he would abide by the law regarding Brexit.....just for the record.
It's almost like nobody believes him.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Dando said:



			You forgot â€œswivel eyed loonsâ€
		
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Naw that was UKIP and Cameron.
Mind you UKIP seem to have de-camped to the Brexit party.


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

Dando said:



			I bet youâ€™re not out of this for long just like the last time, and the time before that and the time before that!
		
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That reply would seem to me to be a great example of the 'blind support' refered to!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I've always wanted a twaddle insult! At last.
I was aware of the Viking/Celt/Pict thing, Cornwall's full of Venetians too from the tin mining/trading days I believe. Just your man had a pop at Germans and French specifically.
		
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While you are at it don't forget the shipwrecked Spaniards from NW Scotland and the Roman lost legions in the Highlands.


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I've always wanted a twaddle insult! At last.
I was aware of the Viking/Celt/Pict thing, Cornwall's full of Venetians too from the tin mining/trading days I believe. Just your man had a pop at Germans and French specifically.
		
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1. Not 'my man'! Hopefully he's 'his own man'!
2. More importantly. Thank you for confirmeing that your post was twaddle!


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## Dando (Sep 3, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No majority for the government.  Oh dear.
		
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Letâ€™s hope he resigns and calls a local election as his constituents didnâ€™t vote for a Lib Dem to represent them


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## Dando (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Naw that was UKIP and Cameron.
Mind you UKIP seem to have de-camped to the Brexit party.

Click to expand...

No, One of your fellow whinge bags called all leavers swivel eyed loons


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## Hitdaball (Sep 3, 2019)

What a depressing thread.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Dando said:



			No, One of your fellow whinge bags called all leavers swivel eyed loons
		
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You are wrong it was Cameron.


The Government stockpiling body bags sounds a bit worrying [via yellowhammer]


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## Old Skier (Sep 3, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Government stockpiling body bags sounds a bit worrying [via yellowhammer]
		
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Got a link


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

Dando said:



			No, One of your fellow whinge bags called all leavers swivel eyed loons
		
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More twaddle as far as I know, at least by public figures! But I'd be happy to retract if you can prove otherwise!


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## Foxholer (Sep 3, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Got a link
		
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Old news? https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/12/nhs-...no-deal-brexit-reveals-tory-minister-8574311/


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 3, 2019)

So as I understand it, Corbyn after constantly bleating for years to have a GE may vote Not to have one now?
No wonder politicians are regarded as low as they are.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2019)

So I have heard snippets on the radio so can someone give me a laymanâ€™s review of what has happened ?

The government has lost their majority now ? So what does that mean for the Brexit process etc ?

Are we heading for another ref vote or another GE or both ?!


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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So I have heard snippets on the radio so can someone give me a laymanâ€™s review of what has happened ?

The government has lost their majority now ? So what does that mean for the Brexit process etc ?

Are we heading for another ref vote or another GE or both ?!
		
Click to expand...

No-one knows...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2019)

Snigger. 
Scroll down for Johnson's puppies.
https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14


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## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			No-one knows...
		
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Not even the experts know :

Here is the paradox that is doing my head in. Later tonight, when up to 20 odd Tories are stripped of the Tory whip, 


minority in parliament will go from minus 2 to minus a lot. He will have no control of parliament. And yet his attempt tomorrow to hold a... general election on 14 October may flop. None of this makes any sense. Chaos. Madness


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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Not even the experts know :

Here is the paradox that is doing my head in. Later tonight, when up to 20 odd Tories are stripped of the Tory whip,


minority in parliament will go from minus 2 to minus a lot. He will have no control of parliament. And yet his attempt tomorrow to hold a... general election on 14 October may flop. None of this makes any sense. Chaos. Madness
		
Click to expand...


Also kinda makes a mockery of the whole opposition holding the government to account principle.  That won't really be happening as the opposition will effectively be in control of the HoC's with the government unable to govern in the normal way i.e. via a parliamentary majority.  I don't really see the idea of the government holding the opposition to account having any legs...


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 3, 2019)

I'm sure that BBC were reporting earlier that the government can get around the fixed term parliament act by bringing a one line bill that says something like " not withstanding the FTPA we will be having an election on (insert date)". I assume that will happen if they can't get the 2/3 majority needed to approve one.


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## User62651 (Sep 3, 2019)

IanM said:



			Interesting to see EU Federalists in the HoC working to remove our bargaining position, just as the previous PM had done.

Remember me saying the morning after the Referendum that *we wouldn't be allowed to leave*? I was right then, and I'm still right now.  *Sadly.*

Click to expand...

You could well be right on not leaving but no-one really knows, see how this HoC vote goes later and move on.

PM in a dreadful position but he wangled for years for the job undermining both Cameron and then May.

It is sad, I agree, but no matter which way it turns out in the end.

Think any GE has to be after another extension agreed from EU, otherwise too much mistrust to get it approved by 2/3rds. BJ absolutely saying 31st do or die was a red line that could backfire.

Letwin summing up well just now in Commons..


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2019)

So the questions are.

Why are a lot of the MPâ€™s trying to block leaving the EU with no deal ? 

Are they doing it because they think itâ€™s what is best for the country ? 

Are the MPâ€™s doing what we vote them in for ? 

Do they think the population should be asked - do we still want to leave and what way should we leave ? 


Or is it just looking after themselves


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## Fade and Die (Sep 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the questions are.

Why are a lot of the MPâ€™s trying to block leaving the EU with no deal ?

Are they doing it because they think itâ€™s what is best for the country ?

Are the MPâ€™s doing what we vote them in for ?

Do they think the population should be asked - do we still want to leave and what way should we leave ?


Or is it just looking after themselves
		
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Donâ€™t know Phil, but who said this.....?

â€œWhether you favour Britain being in or out, we surely should all be able to agree on the simple principle that the decision over our membership should be taken by the British peopleâ€¦ For too long, powers have been handed to Brussels over [the British peopleâ€™s] heads. For too long, their voice on Europe has not been heard. This bill puts that right. It delivers the simple in/out referendum that we promisedâ€¦â€


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## robinthehood (Sep 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the questions are.

Why are a lot of the MPâ€™s trying to block leaving the EU with no deal ?

Are they doing it because they think itâ€™s what is best for the country ?

Are the MPâ€™s doing what we vote them in for ?

Do they think the population should be asked - do we still want to leave and what way should we leave ?


Or is it just looking after themselves
		
Click to expand...

It was the self serving Tory party that got us into this mess in the first place.  The referendum was a stupid idea.


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## Dando (Sep 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			More twaddle as far as I know, at least by public figures! But I'd be happy to retract if you can prove otherwise!
		
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Not sure we can still access Delcâ€™s posts


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## Imurg (Sep 3, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It was the self serving Tory party that got us into this mess in the first place.  The referendum was a stupid idea.
		
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So when is Cameron going to be tried for crimes against the State..?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Donâ€™t know Phil, but who said this.....?

â€œWhether you favour Britain being in or out, we surely should all be able to agree on the simple principle that the decision over our membership should be taken by the British peopleâ€¦ For too long, powers have been handed to Brussels over [the British peopleâ€™s] heads. For too long, their voice on Europe has not been heard. This bill puts that right. It delivers the simple in/out referendum that we promisedâ€¦â€
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t know but doesnâ€™t really answer what I said and itâ€™s just the statement of one person ?


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 3, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It was the self serving Tory party that got us into this mess in the first place.  The referendum was a stupid idea.[/
		
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Dando said:



			Not sure we can still access Delcâ€™s posts
		
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https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000941436721

Knock yourself out. Madmen these remainers are. Obsessed with the union.


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the questions are.

Why are a lot of the MPâ€™s trying to block leaving the EU with no deal ?

Are they doing it because they think itâ€™s what is best for the country ?

Are the MPâ€™s doing what we vote them in for ?

Do they think the population should be asked - do we still want to leave and what way should we leave ?


Or is it just looking after themselves
		
Click to expand...

I think different MP's are blocking leaving with No Deal for different reasons. Some believe its in the best interests of the country, and some are doing it for their belief in partisan politics. Labour probably being the best ever example of fence sitters ever, and are, in the main, angling to bring down the government under their own terms. They campaigned on a very solid Leave mandate in their last manifesto, yet are now very much a Remain party... I think, possibly, maybe. While I very much believe Corbyn is anti-EU. With many of Labour's northern constituencies being Leave, Labour are playing with fire.

The country needs a working government, and the people need closure of this mess whatever way it goes. A GE is the only solid answer. Carry on as the UK is currently doing and there will be no resolution. Get a party in with a solid majority and there's a working government needed to move on. Let them campaign with Brexit being one of their manifesto pledges, and it needs to be a clear pledge, not the wishy-washy version Labour are currently running with. In effect, the GE will be the people choosing what they want.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the questions are.

Why are a lot of the MPâ€™s trying to block leaving the EU with no deal ?

Are they doing it because they think itâ€™s what is best for the country ?

Are the MPâ€™s doing what we vote them in for ?

Do they think the population should be asked - do we still want to leave and what way should we leave ?


Or is it just looking after themselves
		
Click to expand...

They are claiming that it is for the good of the nation, however it is my belief that as the majority of them are retainers then the real motive is self serving.  It appears that Hammond has been going to the EU behind everyone's backs; is that the actions of someone acting in our bests interests, or the actions of a quisling?  I know which one I think it is.

What I don't understand is why these supposedly intelligent people don't realise that if you take No Deal off the table you make negotiating any decent deal nigh on impossible.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Donâ€™t know but doesnâ€™t really answer what I said and itâ€™s just the statement of one person ?
		
Click to expand...

Those words were spoken by Philip Hammond , Foreign Secretary in David Cameronâ€™s government when introducing the referendum bill in the House of Commons. The same Philip Hammond who is now leading the charge against a so-called â€˜no dealâ€™ Brexit. 
I posted it to highlight how untrustworthy our current MPs are and in reply to your post re MPs. They are snakes of the highest order who only look to serve themselves.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 3, 2019)

The political classes were never going to allow the electorate to set them an agenda they didn't approve of...


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think different MP's are blocking leaving with No Deal for different reasons. Some believe its in the best interests of the country, and some are doing it for their belief in partisan politics. Labour probably being the best ever example of fence sitters ever, and are, in the main, angling to bring down the government under their own terms. They campaigned on a very solid Leave mandate in their last manifesto, yet are now very much a Remain party... I think, possibly, maybe. While I very much believe Corbyn is anti-EU. With many of Labour's northern constituencies being Leave, Labour are playing with fire.

The country needs a working government, and the people need closure of this mess whatever way it goes. A GE is the only solid answer. Carry on as the UK is currently doing and there will be no resolution. Get a party in with a solid majority and there's a working government needed to move on. Let them campaign with Brexit being one of their manifesto pledges, and it needs to be a clear pledge, not the wishy-washy version Labour are currently running with. In effect, the GE will be the people choosing what they want.
		
Click to expand...

But we all know the country is split right down the middle in regards Brexit - has there really been enough swing either way to give any part any sort of majority to either leave the EU or revoke Art 50 ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Those words were spoken by Philip Hammond , Foreign Secretary in David Cameronâ€™s government when introducing the referendum bill in the House of Commons. The same Philip Hammond who is now leading the charge against a so-called â€˜no dealâ€™ Brexit.
I posted it to highlight how untrustworthy our current MPs are and in reply to your post re MPs. *They are snakes of the highest order who only look to serve themselves.*

Click to expand...

Yet people think itâ€™s best if we allow them sort this mess out ?!


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But we all know the country is split right down the middle in regards Brexit - has there really been enough swing either way to give any part any sort of majority to either leave the EU or revoke Art 50 ?
		
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But in a GE there will be other aspects to their election which might lead to a solid majority. A second referendum will, as you say, be too close. But a GE, leading to a government with a decent majority might just break the stupid back and forth in Westminster.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet people think itâ€™s best if we allow them sort this mess out ?!
		
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I donâ€™t trust any of them (especially Boris) but what can we do? 
We voted leave by a majority of over 1.2 Mil, the result simply cannot be ignored.


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## Beezerk (Sep 3, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I donâ€™t trust any of them (especially Boris) but what can we do?
We voted leave by a majority of over 1.2 Mil, the result simply cannot be ignored.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it can, and it looks all the more likely it will be.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But in a GE there will be other aspects to their election which might lead to a solid majority. A second referendum will, as you say, be too close. But a GE, leading to a government with a decent majority might just break the stupid back and forth in Westminster.
		
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Iâ€™m not sure if I share your optimism mate because I just see the opposition to the current government as a complete joke mainly because of the person in charge of them


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## Fade and Die (Sep 3, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Yes it can, and it looks all the more likely it will be.
		
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The hardcore Remainers â€“ a small minority from within the 16million+ who voted to remain â€“ are being dishonest in claiming to want a good deal for the UK in exiting the EU. These are the people who voted down the deal Theresa May negotiated with the EU. David Lammy, possibly the most unpleasant person in British public life (and thatâ€™s up against some pretty stiff competition), was honest when he waited until lunchtime on 24th June 2016 to suggest that parliament should ignore the result of the referendum. The hilarious and irony-free signs seen this weekend saying â€˜Defend democracy â€“ stop Brexitâ€™ are further proof that some people have a very odd view of what constitutes democracy.


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m not sure if I share your optimism mate because I just see the opposition to the current government as a complete joke mainly because of the person in charge of them
		
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Can't disagree with you on the idiots the UK has in parliament, on both sides of the House.

But jumping off on a tangent; have a look at how the hierarchy of the EU is set up. Very revealing. There are only 28 EU Commissioners, including the President/Vice President etc. This is called the College. The College decides what laws/directives/policies the EU will have, and once the law is created its put to the EU parliament to vote on. The MEP's vote on it, but can't amend it, and nor can they propose laws. No one votes the Commissioners into office. Democratic?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 3, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet people think itâ€™s best if we allow them sort this mess out ?!
		
Click to expand...

What sums them up for me is Dr Phillip Lee (con.)
He said on channel 4 news he had been considering defecting to Lib Demâ€™s for months.
But he chose today 30 seconds before The PMs speech to enter the chamber flanked by Jo Swinson  and another LD.
Itâ€™s like a bad Shakespeare play.

Itâ€™s a bag of snakes I just donâ€™t belive anything they say anymore.
So a GE is who can tell the best porkies without getting found out.
Democracy ???? I canâ€™t see any.


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## Old Skier (Sep 3, 2019)

Got to larff, the strap line for the rebels "we need to take back control". You can't make it up.


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## Old Skier (Sep 3, 2019)

The comedy hour in Parliament has nothing to do with "No Deal" it's about stopping Brexit. MPs don't even have the courage to admit that outside the LibDems.

Whether a remainer or a leaver how are we now supposed to trust and re elect this bunch.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 3, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			What sums them up for me is Dr Phillip Lee (con.)
He said on channel 4 news he had been considering defecting to Lib Demâ€™s for months.
But he chose today 30 seconds before The PMs speech to enter the chamber flanked by Jo Swinson  and another LD.
Itâ€™s like a bad Shakespeare play.

Itâ€™s a bag of snakes I just donâ€™t belive anything they say anymore.
So a GE is who can tell the best porkies without getting found out.
Democracy ???? I canâ€™t see any.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed! A plague on both their houses!


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## Imurg (Sep 3, 2019)

Soooo....
Labour are saying they won't back an election if Boris calls one....
What choice do they have?
Surely if Boris, being the PM, wants one he goes to see Liz2 and asks her to call an election...which she'll do.
What say do Labour have in it?
Maybe I should have put this in the Confused thread....


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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Soooo....
Labour are saying they won't back an election if Boris calls one....
What choice do they have?
Surely if Boris, being the PM, wants one he goes to see Liz2 and asks her to call an election...which she'll do.
What say do Labour have in it?
Maybe I should have put this in the Confused thread....
		
Click to expand...

PM can't call an election on their own any more. Fixed Term Parliaments Act means 2/3's of the Commons needs to vote in favour of it.


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Soooo....
Labour are saying they won't back an election if Boris calls one....
What choice do they have?
Surely if Boris, being the PM, wants one he goes to see Liz2 and asks her to call an election...which she'll do.
What say do Labour have in it?
Maybe I should have put this in the Confused thread....
		
Click to expand...

The Fixed Term Parliament Act means that if a PM wants to call an early election, i.e. before Full Term, they need the majority of MP's to agree to the election. 

Labour are conscious that now isn't the best time for them to have an election.


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## Imurg (Sep 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			PM can't call an election on their own any more. Fixed Term Parliaments Act means 2/3's of the Commons needs to vote in favour of it.
		
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Hobbit said:



			The Fixed Term Parliament Act means that if a PM wants to call an early election, i.e. before Full Term, they need the majority of MP's to agree to the election.

Labour are conscious that now isn't the best time for them to have an election.
		
Click to expand...

Cool and Groovy
So they're all a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes....


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 3, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Soooo....
Labour are saying they won't back an election if Boris calls one....
What choice do they have?
Surely if Boris, being the PM, wants one he goes to see Liz2 and asks her to call an election...which she'll do.
What say do Labour have in it?
Maybe I should have put this in the Confused thread....
		
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Corbyn is like my missus for a new car.
Been bleating for a GE for years gets his chance and dosnt want one now.
You couldnâ€™t make it up.
No wonder the EU arenâ€™t offering anything, they must be laughing their heads off.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Sep 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The Fixed Term Parliament Act means that if a PM wants to call an early election, i.e. before Full Term, they need the majority of MP's to agree to the election.

Labour are conscious that now isn't the best time for them to have an election.
		
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Jezzer was calling for an election yesterday wasn't he?


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## Imurg (Sep 3, 2019)

saving_par said:



			Jezzer was calling for an election yesterday wasn't he?
		
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He's been to sleep since then....


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## adam6177 (Sep 3, 2019)

So in the event that a general election gets called..... Who the hell commands your vote?

MPs have really shown us what they're made of over the last few years.  They aren't fit for purpose. They lie. They cheat and whether you like it or not they may or may not accept the result of a democratic vote because they don't like it.

What a country we live in.


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			So in the event that a general election gets called..... Who the hell commands your vote?

MPs have really shown us what they're made of over the last few years.  They aren't fit for purpose. They lie. They cheat and whether you like it or not they may or may not accept the result of a democratic vote because they don't like it.

What a country we live in.
		
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If I lived in the UK I'd be doing what I always do. Read the manifesto for the parties. Listen to any meat to those manifesto pledges and then choose who I'd vote for. The GE is about far more than Brexit.


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## Dando (Sep 3, 2019)

saving_par said:



			Jezzer was calling for an election yesterday wasn't he?
		
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Heâ€™ll deny all knowledge of it just like the funeral he didnâ€™t attend


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## Imurg (Sep 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If I lived in the UK I'd be doing what I always do. Read the manifesto for the parties. Listen to any meat to those manifesto pledges and then choose who I'd vote for. The GE is about far more than Brexit.
		
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But will it be..?
They often get hijacked by whoever is in charge of a particular party and many people end up voting for the guy (or gal) in charge rather than actually looking at their local candidates.
Brexit will be top of the agenda on every manifesto


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			PM can't call an election on their own any more. Fixed Term Parliaments Act means 2/3's of the Commons needs to vote in favour of it.
		
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I think I read that he can call a no confidence vote on himself and get one that way and not requiring the 2/3s.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 3, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			So in the event that a general election gets called..... Who the hell commands your vote?

MPs have really shown us what they're made of over the last few years.  They aren't fit for purpose. They lie. They cheat and whether you like it or not they may or may not accept the result of a democratic vote because they don't like it.

What a country we live in.
		
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As a Conservative party member, not the conservatives at this rate! 
Sir Farages band will get my vote if thereâ€™s an MP standing.


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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			I think I read that he can call a no confidence vote on himself and get one that way and not requiring the 2/3s.
		
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He would need to lose the no confidence vote.  The same as his call for a GE, the opposition i.e. Labour, won't play ball and vote against him in any such vote ahead of the legislation they want to introduce to block a No Deal Brexit.


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## drdel (Sep 3, 2019)

So Letwin claims the PM has been too threatening towards the EU, same guy who objected to T May at the opposite end of the spectrum. 

True to form Bercow laughs at Peter  Bone for objecting to the motion.

Do these people realise the damage this does to the UK's reputation?


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			PM can't call an election on their own any more. Fixed Term Parliaments Act means 2/3's of the Commons needs to vote in favour of it.
		
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Further info on calling a GE that I didn't know in my earlier post.......

"From the government's point of view, the problem with needing two-thirds of MPs to support an early election is that it would require the backing of Labour MPs. Senior Labour figures say this is unlikely at the moment. But it's not impossible for a government to get round this requirement. It could be achieved by introducing a very short law that calls for an election and adds "notwithstanding the Fixed Term Parliaments Act". This would remove the two-thirds requirement. This would be easier to pass as it would only require a simple majority of MPs to support it."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49004486 

So a simple majority needed rather than the 2/3.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			So Letwin claims the PM has been too threatening towards the EU, same guy who objected to T May at the opposite end of the spectrum.

True to form Bercow laughs at Peter  Bone for objecting to the motion.

*Do these people realise the damage this does to the UK's reputation?*

Click to expand...

Do they even care?  They are that insulated from real life and consider themselves that untouchable that I don't believe they do.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

You couldn't make this shot up could you


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1168976706683711494


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			You couldn't make this shot up could you


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1168976706683711494

Click to expand...

If this was any other job they'd be sacked for gross incompetence.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 3, 2019)

Imurg said:



			But will it be..?
They often get hijacked by whoever is in charge of a particular party and many people end up voting for the guy (or gal) in charge rather than actually looking at their local candidates.
Brexit will be top of the agenda on every manifesto
		
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Boris
Jezza 
Swinson
Farage

Oh dear this is supposed to be the cream.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 3, 2019)

Peston...
I have belatedly worked out that 
@BorisJohnson
 can and probably will accept the legislation delaying Brexit as the price of going to the country in a general election. Because he would campaign on a manifesto of leaving the EU on 31 October. So if he wins the clear... commons majority he seeks, he could repeal that legislation in a single day before 31 October and could insist Lords do not block repeal (because repeal would be in Tory manifesto). So we are heading for a general election as a proxy for a referendum, with Tories campaigning... to Brexit - deal or no deal - on 31 October. I really can't see how Labour could refuse to sanction and fight an election on those terms.


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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Further info on calling a GE that I didn't know in my earlier post.......

"From the government's point of view, the problem with needing two-thirds of MPs to support an early election is that it would require the backing of Labour MPs. Senior Labour figures say this is unlikely at the moment. But it's not impossible for a government to get round this requirement. It could be achieved by introducing a very short law that calls for an election and adds "notwithstanding the Fixed Term Parliaments Act". This would remove the two-thirds requirement. This would be easier to pass as it would only require a simple majority of MPs to support it."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49004486 

So a simple majority needed rather than the 2/3.
		
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Two issues with that idea:

1) If tonight's motion is passed the  the government doesn't get to decide what legislation is introduced, the opposition decides.

2) Boris no longer has a majority of any sort, he now leads a minority government. So even a simple majority vote in favour of an election is a considerable stretch for Boris to achieve.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 3, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



*Do they even care?*  They are that insulated from real life and consider themselves that untouchable that I don't believe they do.
		
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Only about themselves and their stacks of cash theyâ€™re hiding away. All of this is to protect themselves.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Two issues with that idea:

1) If tonight's motion is passed the  the government doesn't get to decide what legislation is introduced, the opposition decides.

2) Boris no longer has a majority of any sort, he now leads a minority government. So even a simple majority vote in favour of an election is a considerable stretch for Boris to achieve.
		
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I've no idea with regards to the first point, is all business handed over to the opposition or is it only with regards to Brexit? I thought that the motion tonight was simply to force the government to ask for an extension (and block no deal) and if it passes then it's business as usual from tomorrow. But it seems that the SNP would back an election as long as it was to be held before 31st October. That might be enough to get the majority needed even without Labour support.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 3, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Only about themselves and their stacks of cash theyâ€™re hiding away. All of this is to protect themselves.
		
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No argument with that.


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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've no idea with regards to the first point, is all business handed over to the opposition or is it only with regards to Brexit? I thought that the motion tonight was simply to force the government to ask for an extension (and block no deal) and if it passes then it's business as usual from tomorrow. But it seems that the SNP would back an election as long as it was to be held before 31st October. That might be enough to get the majority needed even without Labour support.
		
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The motion tonight is for the opposition to take control of tomorrow's business, the vote tonight is not about moving any dates.

And IMO, the opposition will vote against anything Boris proposes, including holding a GE.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Two issues with that idea:

1) If tonight's motion is passed the  the government doesn't get to decide what legislation is introduced, the opposition decides.


So a democratic government voted for by the public in a General Election can be overthrown by the opposition who then deny said government calling a GE 

Is that where we are really.
		
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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

It would appear so.

As I said above, kinda drives a cart & horses thru the notion of the opposition's job being to hold the government to account...


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 3, 2019)

Sadly it would appear it is. If I didn't laugh I'd cry.


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## TheDiablo (Sep 3, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Donâ€™t know Phil, but who said this.....?

â€œWhether you favour Britain being in or out, we surely should all be able to agree on the simple principle that the decision over our membership should be taken by the British peopleâ€¦ For too long, powers have been handed to Brussels over [the British peopleâ€™s] heads. For too long, their voice on Europe has not been heard. This bill puts that right. It delivers the simple in/out referendum that we promisedâ€¦â€
		
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You can't pick out one thing said by one person in this whole mess and hold them to account over anyone else. We'd have nobody left (actually, maybe not a bad thing!) 

Remember JRM once said it would make sense to have a second referendum after any negotiation with the EU is completed!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The motion tonight is for the opposition to take control of tomorrow's business, the vote tonight is not about moving any dates.

And IMO, the opposition will vote against anything Boris proposes, including holding a GE.
		
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So they aren't voting on whether to make sure the government ask for an extension? Do they have to hold a vote on that tomorrow if they win tonight?

It would seem to be a bit hypocritical of Corbyn/Labour to vote against a GE when all they've been banging on about for the last few months is wanting an election.


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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So they aren't voting on whether to make sure the government ask for an extension? Do they have to hold a vote on that tomorrow if they win tonight?

It would seem to be a bit hypocritical of Corbyn/Labour to vote against a GE when all they've been banging on about for the last few months is wanting an election.
		
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Yeah, tomorrow is legislation to move the date and make no deal illegal if they win tonight's vote.

Hypocrisy is one of the key skills any politician requires to be successful these days...


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Yeah, tomorrow is legislation to move the date and make no deal illegal if they win tonight's vote.

Hypocrisy is one of the key skills any politician requires to be successful these days...
		
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Is it only tomorrow that they get to take control of? Or does it go on longer than that? And I assume that no deal is only illegal until there is a majority in parliament that are willing to back overturning that law.


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## Old Skier (Sep 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If I lived in the UK I'd be doing what I always do. Read the manifesto for the parties. Listen to any meat to those manifesto pledges and then choose who I'd vote for. The GE is about far more than Brexit.
		
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But it is now proven that manifestos aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on.


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## ger147 (Sep 3, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is it only tomorrow that they get to take control of? Or does it go on longer than that? And I assume that no deal is only illegal until there is a majority in parliament that are willing to back overturning that law.
		
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Only tomorrow.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Only tomorrow.
		
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Thanks.


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## robinthehood (Sep 3, 2019)

Good to see democracy prevail.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 3, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			No argument with that.
		
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Boooooo........ I bet LP has one ðŸ˜ðŸ˜


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## backwoodsman (Sep 3, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I've watched the BBC news for ever and in the Brexit matter the BBC clearly have been biased towards remain. Over the last few weeks they have started pretty  much all their bulletins with an "in the case of a no deal brexit" story and imo have never sought to balance their story with any benefit that leaving may bring, it has been a re run of project fear. *After the speech, which I thought Boris clearly said that no one wants a GE she straight away poo poo'd *that and went off on a narrative imo that was in direct contrast to the speech, something shes been doing for a couple of years  now.
		
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So dear Laura was right after all?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2019)

I am ashamed of them.  They have transformed the mother of parliaments into a pit of vipers and turds.  A plague on our houses.


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## JamesR (Sep 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am ashamed of them.  They have transformed the mother of parliaments into a pit of vipers and turds.  A plague on our houses.
		
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Well, thatâ€™s Tories for you ðŸ˜®!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Well, thatâ€™s Tories for you ðŸ˜®!
		
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Some of them, yes.  Its a fair bit wider than that though. Do you not agree?


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## JamesR (Sep 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Some of them, yes.  Its a fair bit wider than that though. Do you not agree?
		
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Theyâ€™re mostly scum, but none worse (currently) than Tory scum!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 3, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Theyâ€™re mostly scum, but none worse (currently) than Tory scum!
		
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Corbyn scum takes some licking.


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## Kellfire (Sep 4, 2019)

Finally - politicians putting the people first and their own aspirations second. Just as it should be.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Finally - politicians putting the people first and their own aspirations second. Just as it should be.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Dando (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Finally - politicians putting the people first and their own aspirations second. Just as it should be.
		
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If they were putting the people first we wouldnâ€™t be in this mess and wouldâ€™ve left the EU by now, after all thatâ€™s what the people voted for


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## Beezerk (Sep 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			If they were putting the people first we wouldnâ€™t be in this mess and wouldâ€™ve left the EU by now, after all thatâ€™s what the people voted for
		
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Can't believe you've bitten to the forums biggest troll


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## Dando (Sep 4, 2019)

Great quote by Blackford in that Boris â€œmust respect the voteâ€ ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


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## Dando (Sep 4, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Can't believe you've bitten to the forums biggest troll 

Click to expand...

Im just bored this morning so thought Iâ€™d reply! 
No doubt heâ€™ll say the referendum wasnâ€™t legally binding Etc etc


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## robinthehood (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Finally - politicians putting the people first and their own aspirations second. Just as it should be.
		
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Well said.


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## Beezerk (Sep 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			Im just bored this morning so thought Iâ€™d reply!
No doubt heâ€™ll say the referendum wasnâ€™t legally binding Etc etc
		
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I found a broken record the other day, I listened to it for a short while before I threw it into the bin.


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## Dando (Sep 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Well said.
		
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I see the other troll has crept out from under his bridge as well


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 4, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Can't believe you've bitten to the forums biggest troll 

Click to expand...

I see the Forum's second biggest troll is supporting him.


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## robinthehood (Sep 4, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I see the Forum's second biggest troll is supporting him. 

Click to expand...

You've had all night to consider what the result means and the best you can come up with is to call a couple of people who are happy with it trolls. 
Disappointing but not unexpected, its the default forum setting for  when a poster has little else to offer in terms of a considered response.


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## ger147 (Sep 4, 2019)

So the majority of the MP's in the HoC's don't want to leave without a deal and they don't want to leave with the only deal available.

That only leaves staying in the EU so why don't they hurry up, vote to revoke A50 and be done with it.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 4, 2019)

All this not getting on with what the majority voted for is just paving the way for more right wing populist thinking, More division, more hate, and more of Sir Nigel.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 4, 2019)

All 21 Tory rebels have had the whip removed and wont be able to stand as conservatives at the next election unless they say they will vote with the government tonight. Now this legislation  proposed today is very much pointless because after a general election is called a new government can overturn it and leave on the 31st without a deal anyway. All it does is provide yet more delay to something quite frankly everyone is fed up with. Government loses tonight, there will be a motion called for a general election which I'd imagine labour will vote against forcing Boris to introduce a short Bill which then only requires a simple majority. If this then fails he can always call a vote of no confidence in his own government and if no new government can be formed within 14 days, he can call a general election on the date of his choosing. Exciting times.


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## ger147 (Sep 4, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			All 21 Tory rebels have had the whip removed and wont be able to stand as conservatives at the next election unless they say they will vote with the government tonight. Now this legislation  proposed today is very much pointless because after a general election is called a new government can overturn it and leave on the 31st without a deal anyway. All it does is provide yet more delay to something quite frankly everyone is fed up with. Government loses tonight, there will be a motion called for a general election which I'd imagine labour will vote against forcing Boris to introduce a short Bill which then only requires a simple majority. If this then fails he can always call a vote of no confidence in his own government and if no new government can be formed within 14 days, he can call a general election on the date of his choosing. Exciting times.
		
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For the last option to succeed, he has to lose the vote of no confidence. No guarantee the opposition will co-operate and vote the government down.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 4, 2019)

ger147 said:



			For the last option to succeed, he has to lose the vote of no confidence. No guarantee the opposition will co-operate and vote the government down.
		
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The opposition is even more divided than the government which is why I think it would work, the Bill will most likely get through though


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## chrisd (Sep 4, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			All 21 Tory rebels have had the whip removed and wont be able to stand as conservatives at the next election unless they say they will vote with the government tonight. Now this legislation  proposed today is very much pointless because after a general election is called a new government can overturn it and leave on the 31st without a deal anyway. All it does is provide yet more delay to something quite frankly everyone is fed up with. Government loses tonight, there will be a motion called for a general election which I'd imagine labour will vote against forcing Boris to introduce a short Bill which then only requires a simple majority. If this then fails he can always call a vote of no confidence in his own government and if no new government can be formed within 14 days, he can call a general election on the date of his choosing. Exciting times.
		
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What if he calls a vote of no confidence in his own government and he loses that vote?


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## ger147 (Sep 4, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			The opposition is even more divided than the government which is why I think it would work, the Bill will most likely get through though
		
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I meant co-operate with Boris. They know if they vote him down in a vote of no confidence, he gets to pick the election date. They don't want him doing that either until the extension is ratified by the EU which won't be until mid-October so I can't see him losing a vote of no confidence before then.


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## Pathetic Shark (Sep 4, 2019)

In my Utopian world ...
1.   We leave the EU on 31.10 with a deal/no deal.
2.   The Conservatives win a General Election with a decent majority.
3.   The 21 rebels cannot stand as Conservatives, all lose and are out of politics.
4.   The Government then gets on with running the country for the benefit of all.
5.    Wee Krankie gets put back in her box about another independence referendum.

Then again, I've got more chance of seeing 3/4 handicap difference coming back in singles matchplay.


----------



## oxymoron (Sep 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You've had all night to consider what the result means and the best you can come up with is to call a couple of people who are happy with it trolls.
Disappointing but not unexpected, its the default forum setting for  when a poster has little else to offer in terms of a considered response.
		
Click to expand...

How can you possibly be happy with what happened last night ? All it does is show us our politicians are a set of incompetent , self serving fools ( my opinion) who appear to have handed control to the opposition, not an elected government .That being an opposition who do not have a clue what they want ! An election yes ,,,,,,er no ,leave the EU yes,,,,,,er no ,,,,er yes you really could not make this up .
And as to removing no deal from the table,for christs sake lets just ask what the EU want then bend over and take it because after this , if we do indeed stay in we have lost all credibility and will be treated accordingly by the rest .


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Finally - politicians putting the people first and their own aspirations second. Just as it should be.
		
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If they were putting people first they would support any call for a GE today. They only want a peoples vote on their terms. Not one remainer complaining about their lies.


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## chrisd (Sep 4, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			How can you possibly be happy with what happened last night ? All it does is show us our politicians are a set of incompetent , self serving fools ( my opinion) who appear to have handed control to the opposition, not an elected government .That being an opposition who do not have a clue what they want ! An election yes ,,,,,,er no ,leave the EU yes,,,,,,er no ,,,,er yes you really could not make this up .
And as to removing no deal from the table,for christs sake lets just ask what the EU want then bend over and take it because after this , if we do indeed stay in we have lost all credibility and will be treated accordingly by the rest .
		
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The worst of all results. We stay in the EU  and everyone there will know that we dont want to be there, and furthermore will we stay in with the deals, veto's etc we had before we triggered A50?


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## woofers (Sep 4, 2019)

Someone explain to me how a GE will help resolve things please.
If the Tories win again, even with a large majority, what will change?
They are divided about Europe, (as they always have been), and canâ€™t agree a way forward. Doesnâ€™t seem to matter what goes on the manifesto because the MP just does as he/she personally sees fit, even if that means voting against the government or even changing sides.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 4, 2019)

chrisd said:



			What if he calls a vote of no confidence in his own government and he loses that vote?
		
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He would in effect want to lose that vote


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## chrisd (Sep 4, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			He would in effect want to lose that vote
		
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Surely he'd want to win the vote, resign, and then there would be a GE


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## ger147 (Sep 4, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Surely he'd want to win the vote, resign, and then there would be a GE
		
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A "win" for Boris would be losing the vote i.e. the HoC's voting that they have no confidence in the government. That counts as the government losing. And there wouldn't automatically be a GE straight away, there is then a period where the opposition can attempt to win a confidence vote to take over. Only if that also fails can Boris then call a GE.

But as I said above, Corbyn knows this so won't vote Boris down until the EU ratify the Brexit date move.


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## Mudball (Sep 4, 2019)

Isnâ€™t it easier to call a Ref 2 than GE.. in a GE some/most will lose their jobs.  The public â€˜mandateâ€™ is still undeliverable to anyone who forms the next coalition. So why not solve the problem rather than the symptom? Or am I being too simple ?


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## Mudball (Sep 4, 2019)

From the Interweb today..


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Isnâ€™t it easier to call a Ref 2 than GE.. in a GE some/most will lose their jobs.  The public â€˜mandateâ€™ is still undeliverable to anyone who forms the next coalition. So why not solve the problem rather than the symptom? Or am I being too simple ?
		
Click to expand...

 A ref won't give Jezza the Red a shot at getting in, which is what he wants (again)


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)




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## ger147 (Sep 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Isnâ€™t it easier to call a Ref 2 than GE.. in a GE some/most will lose their jobs.  The public â€˜mandateâ€™ is still undeliverable to anyone who forms the next coalition. So why not solve the problem rather than the symptom? Or am I being too simple ?
		
Click to expand...

It's not easier to do anything at the moment. There is no majority in the HoC's for anything positive, only negative i.e. what they don't want.

Motions to have a 2nd vote were defeated shortly after May's deal was defeated and the arithmetic in parliament hasn't changed since then.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			In my Utopian world ...
1.   We leave the EU on 31.10 with a deal/no deal.
2.   The Conservatives win a General Election with a decent majority.
3.   The 21 rebels cannot stand as Conservatives, all lose and are out of politics.
4.   The Government then gets on with running the country for the benefit of all.
5.    Wee Krankie gets put back in her box about another independence referendum.

Then again, I've got more chance of seeing 3/4 handicap difference coming back in singles matchplay.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s a bit early to be drinking ,,lol.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-04...will-he-allow-an-election-asks-robert-peston/


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 4, 2019)

woofers said:



			Someone explain to me how a GE will help resolve things please.
If the Tories win again, even with a large majority, what will change?
They are divided about Europe, (as they always have been), and canâ€™t agree a way forward. Doesnâ€™t seem to matter what goes on the manifesto because the MP just does as he/she personally sees fit, even if that means voting against the government or even changing sides.
		
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The conservative manifesto will include a major piece about leaving on Oct 31st come what may. Every candidate will need to sign up to this. If they don't then they will not be able to stand as a Tory. If the Conservatives gain a majority every candidate will be duty bound to follow the govt and the manifesto they signed up to. The cull of 21 last night was the start of this.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)

EU trying to digest this morning what exactly last night means for negotiations. Le Monde article below starts with words: Â« Another crazy day in Brexitland Â» EU mood the morning after the night before is bittersweet. EU leaders glad to see rejection in parliament of no deal (+ thereâ€™s thinly-veiled Schadenfreude about Johnsonâ€™s defeat. The man who EU heard saying you just need more oomph and positive thinking to make a deal..)BUT /2 EU repeats what said last time parliament voted against no deal: the only way to ban no deal is to make a deal with EU or cancel #Brexit otherwise no deal happens by default /3 A general election, another #Brexit extension.. The EU feels itâ€™s been round this block before. Relief at real possibility of avoiding what seemed inevitable no deal on 31 Oct balanced out by EU realisation that MPs still divided about what they DO want /4 Meanwhile all the #Brexit uncertainty is costly for EU economically and politically. Businesses eg in NL complaining to their gov BUT this does not mean they want EU leaders to Â« cave in Â» on #Brexit deal /5 EU business makes more money from single market as a whole than from trade with U.K. alone. General EU consensus: the economic hit of no deal would be less costly than making compromises in renegotiations that weaken single market as a whole /6 Would EU grant another Brexit extension if asked by gov? Most likely yes, despite grumblings of Â« never ending #Brexit Â«  but.. /7 EU officials I speak to are already looking ahead: Deal or no deal, they say, the UKâ€™s Â« exiting Â» was meant to be the easy bit. Trade deal negotiations that follow are when hardest trade-offs come to light ..So what will that be like??  /8 EU heard PMs declaration last night that he will now come to Brusseks and get a new #Brexit deal at the EU leadersâ€™ summit in mid Oct.. EU leadersâ€™ eyebrows could not be raised any higher.. They are clear: they will not directly negotiate with PM at the summit because /10 The PMs main EU envoy David Frost is coming to Brussels today. That should be interesting. Johnson gov regarded here with huge mistrust and has now lost any pretence of majority .. Though even before last night EU clear it lacked support in Parliament to guarantee anything /11


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## Kellfire (Sep 4, 2019)

Iâ€™d love to know how itâ€™s trolling to hold an opinion held by millions of people. 

The people deserve the representation they voted for in the binding votes for MPs, rather than allowing the PM to remove our democratic right to enforce a non binding vote in its stead.

So many people are just handing away their democracy and gift wrapping it for the thieves. Sad.


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Can't disagree with you on the idiots the UK has in parliament, on both sides of the House.

But jumping off on a tangent; have a look at how the hierarchy of the EU is set up. Very revealing. There are only 28 EU Commissioners, including the President/Vice President etc. This is called the College. The College decides what laws/directives/policies the EU will have, and once the law is created its put to the EU parliament to vote on. The MEP's vote on it, but can't amend it, and nor can they propose laws. No one votes the Commissioners into office. Democratic?
		
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Just remember why there are 28 Commissioners. They are, effectively, appointed by Member States, though they take an oath to be 'bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state'. The European Parliament must approve the appointments.

It's not all that different, though it IS different, from how UK Government works - if you consider the College as (the equivalent of) Cabinet. Virtually all UK Law ioriginates from Cabinet. Though some of the non-Cabinet originated laws are 'key' ones - as we could well find out soon!


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## Dando (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Iâ€™d love to know how itâ€™s trolling to hold an opinion held by millions of people.

The people deserve the representation they voted for in the binding votes for MPs, rather than allowing the PM to remove our democratic right to enforce a non binding vote in its stead.

So many people are just handing away their democracy and gift wrapping it for the thieves. Sad.
		
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is that the "non binding vote" that we were told would be implemented?


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			...
The people deserve the representation they voted for in the binding votes for MPs...
		
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They have that!


Kellfire said:



			...
rather than allowing the PM to remove our democratic right to enforce a non binding vote in its stead...
		
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What 'democratic right is that'? And how has it been 'removed' - that our democracy doesn't allow him to do?


Kellfire said:



			...
So many people are just handing away their democracy and gift wrapping it for the thieves...
		
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Twaddle!


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Iâ€™d love to know how itâ€™s trolling to hold an opinion held by millions of people.

The people deserve the representation they voted for in the binding votes for MPs, rather than allowing the PM to remove our democratic right to enforce a non binding vote in its stead.

So many people are just handing away their democracy and gift wrapping it for the thieves. Sad.
		
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Selective democracy: Minority democracy good - majority democracy bad.


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2019)

woofers said:



			Someone explain to me how a GE will help resolve things please.
		
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The biggest form of "Peoples Vote", solves everything in one go.


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## robinthehood (Sep 4, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The biggest form of "Peoples Vote", solves everything in one go.
		
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Not sure it will, at least not in the way you hope.


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## Kellfire (Sep 4, 2019)

Sleepwalking.


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Not sure it will, at least not in the way you hope.
		
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You have no idea what I hope for.


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The biggest form of "Peoples Vote", solves everything in one go.
		
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How will it do that?


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## robinthehood (Sep 4, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You have no idea what I hope for.
		
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Enlighten me then.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2019)

21 expelled Tories to form a new Rebel Alliance Party


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Enlighten me then.
		
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Why


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			How will it do that?
		
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Because, if you believe their manifestos,  you get what you pay for. Or you could be one of those that blindly voted for the same colour rosette at every election.


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Because, if you believe their manifestos,  you get what you pay for. Or you could be one of those that blindly voted for the same colour rosette at every election.
		
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That didn't work last time, so why will it work next time?!


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2019)

Unfortunately it's the way our system works (or not). If no majority then it will be time for parliament to reconsider how the electoral systems needs to be changed.


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			Not sure we can still access Delcâ€™s posts
		
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Try it then! Though I have no idea how that's going to help! 
Seems like more twaddle!


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 4, 2019)

21 Tories following their conscience. Only 2 Labour ones do it. 

Labour are now an evil influence and destructive force and need to be crushed !


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## robinthehood (Sep 4, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			21 Tories following their conscience. Only 2 Labour ones do it.

Labour are now an evil influence and destructive force and need to be crushed !
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
This is 100% the conservative party's mess.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Sleepwalking.
		
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Are you. Theres pills for that.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Enlighten me then.
		
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Now theres a challenge.


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## robinthehood (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you. Theres pills for that.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Now theres a challenge.
		
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 First 2 posts of the day, a couple of lame insults.  
Great insight


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## IanM (Sep 4, 2019)

The fact we are being prevented from leaving is the clearest indication that we need to leave.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			First 2 posts of the day, a couple of lame insults. 
Great insight
		
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Its the only was to deal with trolls.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
This is 100% the conservative party's mess.
		
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ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
No its not.


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## robinthehood (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its the only was to deal with trolls.
		
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Ah back to calling people trolls because they don't share your blinkered view of the world.
Sad, but entirely predictable.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ah back to calling people trolls because they don't share your blinkered view of the world.
Sad, but entirely predictable.
		
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Calm down dear, it's only a Golf Forum.
Move on, nothing to see here. ðŸš®


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

IanM said:



			The fact we are being prevented from leaving is the clearest indication that we need to leave.
		
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To use Mr Spock's frequent expression....That's illogical!


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)

What a plank....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169121566715781120


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			21 Tories following their conscience. *Only 2 Labour ones do it*.
...
		
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Twaddle!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
No its not.
		
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Yes it is, if the Tories had shown the loyalty to TM that the idiot Johnson now wants weâ€™d already be out, and thereâ€™d of been nothing, absolutely nothing, any other party could of done about it.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			What a plank....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169121566715781120

Click to expand...

Oh dear ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£  oh deary me.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes it is, if the Tories had shown the loyalty to TM that the idiot Johnson now wants weâ€™d already be out, and thereâ€™d of been nothing, absolutely nothing, any other party could of done about it.
		
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No its not.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No its not.
		
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Still donâ€™t like hard cold facts I see.


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
This is 100% the conservative party's mess.
		
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Twaddle!


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes it is, if the Tories had shown the loyalty to TM that the idiot Johnson now wants weâ€™d already be out, and thereâ€™d of been nothing, absolutely nothing, any other party could of done about it.
		
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You obviously haven't absorbed that abominable 'deal'  - that was more likely to keep us in - then!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Still donâ€™t like hard cold facts I see.

Click to expand...

I'm just using the debating style of the poster I was replying to.

Regarding your comment as you seem capable of a reasoned discussion:
MPs never showed loyalty to May as she had negotiated a surrender WA that was unacceptable to she vast majority of the House. She was running scared and pathetic.  Boris is clear on his policy whether you agree with it or not.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!
		
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???? Did you not see the Labour MP's who voted againt their leader? There was only 2! How many Labour constituancies votes out?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You obviously haven't absorbed that abominable 'deal'  - that was more likely to keep us in - then!
		
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I voted to Leave, I never ever voted to Leave with No Deal, the Leave campaign also said weâ€™d have a deal.

1 Party has dealt with the EU, they have never been joined up since TM started the negotiations.

If Parliament had voted for her deal the same way they defeated vote of no confidence weâ€™d be out.

Yes it may of been a bad deal, but weâ€™d be out.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 4, 2019)

Nobody is talking about the 17 labour MP's who are seeking to get 40 amendments to this legislation before they will vote for it in the binding vote. Of the 21 conservative MP's there are certainly more than a few who will vote the other way in the binding vote in order to be able to stand as conservative candidates again, so should certainly prove to be an interesting afternoon/evening in parliament tonight


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49568760
SNP are appealing, god knows why, must have money to burn.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm just using the debating style of the poster I was replying to.

Regarding your comment as you seem capable of a reasoned discussion:
MPs never showed loyalty to May as she had negotiated a surrender WA that was unacceptable to she vast majority of the House. She was running scared and pathetic.  Boris is clear on his policy whether you agree with it or not.
		
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Thatâ€™s a different policy to what he campaigned on, why believe him now?

If heâ€™s so determined to get us a good deal why not rip everything up and tell the EU heâ€™ll negotiate from scratch over a reasonable period, surely if heâ€™s that convinced heâ€™s the right man we can be patient.

Itâ€™s his threats that arenâ€™t working.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I voted to Leave, I never ever voted to Leave with No Deal, the Leave campaign also said weâ€™d have a deal.

1 Party has dealt with the EU, they have never been joined up since TM started the negotiations.

If Parliament had voted for her deal the same way they defeated vote of no confidence weâ€™d be out.

Yes it may of been a bad deal, but weâ€™d be out.
		
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No we wouldn't  ðŸ˜‰


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 4, 2019)

It's a national disgrace, how this has been allowed to carry on like this. We voted out 3 bluddy years ago and are still in????? our elected Mp's are blocking what the people voted for. Those that are doing this are a disgrace to democracy. What if we had an GE and Nige won? Would these Remoaners then demand another vote again? and again? and again? 

I know lets all vote for Corbin and he'll let everyone in to the country and we'll be over run with christ alone knows how many people that we'll have no chance to pay for.

If this happens I'm off.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49568760
SNP are appealing, god knows why, must have money to burn.
		
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Appeal wont go anywhere, I've a feeling money is coming from an unnamed continental source for these cases including that of Gina Miller. Hammond is strongly rumoured to be taking advice from EU lawyers


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49568760
SNP are appealing, god knows why, must have money to burn.
		
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Will a Scottish Court have any durastriction over the UK government?
Can they force them to implement anything even if they win the appeal?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			???? Did you not see the Labour MP's who voted againt their leader? There was only 2! How many Labour constituancies votes out?
		
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We didnâ€™t hold the Referendum on constituancy lines.
How I feel about the EU and how this Country is run are 2 entirely different things, as seen by the last GE when TM blew her majority.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s a different policy to what he campaigned on, why believe him now?

If heâ€™s so determined to get us a good deal why not rip everything up and tell the EU heâ€™ll negotiate from scratch over a reasonable period, surely if heâ€™s that convinced heâ€™s the right man we can be patient.

Itâ€™s his threats that arenâ€™t working.
		
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The EU said they are not renegotiating.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 4, 2019)

Think the message was straight to the point, more people want a planned exit if there is going to be one, even the remainers.
Boris is just making it up as he goes along, his behaviour last night was childish. To think he would call an election after the leave date .. who would accept that ? He also had cheesed off most with his prorogue.
Also the Europeans have called his bluff on the back stop, giving him a 30 day opportunity to present a workable solution. He will try and blame them but in the end he is tasked with delivering it.

Any way enough said, this is all rather predictable. Just pop out of the trench and walk towards the machine guns.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			The EU said they are not renegotiating.
		
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Exactly !


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			The EU said they are not renegotiating.
		
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And why should they. I have said before it's like a Union Convenor going to the Management in a pay dispute saying "We want a substantial wage increase but before we start negotiating I am informing you we will not take any industrial action"


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## harpo_72 (Sep 4, 2019)

Do you know, I think Boris never did his own home work at school... dunno just get the impression he talks a lot but does little


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## Parsaregood (Sep 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Think the message was straight to the point, more people want a planned exit if there is going to be one, even the remainers.
Boris is just making it up as he goes along, his behaviour last night was childish. To think he would call an election after the leave date .. who would accept that ? He also had cheesed off most with his prorogue.
Also the Europeans have called his bluff on the back stop, giving him a 30 day opportunity to present a workable solution. He will try and blame them but in the end he is tasked with delivering it.

Any way enough said, this is all rather predictable. Just pop out of the trench and walk towards the machine guns.
		
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The election date if proposed in a bill would be the 15th October, I've never heard Boris Johnson say this. Quote your source ? At the end of the day the referendum was a simple vote leave or remain, we voted to leave. We cannot stay in a perpetual motion of limbo. We will have to leave. For those who wish to remain, they are quite entitled to argue for this but first we must leave and the argument remainers wish to put forward can be made. The result of the biggest political vote in Britain's history must be implemented, no if's but's or maybe's.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Think the message was straight to the point, more people want a planned exit if there is going to be one, even the remainers.
Boris is just making it up as he goes along, his behaviour last night was childish. To think he would call an election after the leave date .. who would accept that ? He also had cheesed off most with his prorogue.
Also the Europeans have called his bluff on the back stop, giving him a 30 day opportunity to present a workable solution. He will try and blame them but in the end he is tasked with delivering it.

Any way enough said, this is all rather predictable. Just pop out of the trench and walk towards the machine guns.
		
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If you are in negotiations with someone whoâ€™s business is in turmoil why would you help them?
The EU are just sitting back and laughing at us.
We are ruled by laws from when Henry v111 was on the throne and lots even older.
Itâ€™s a disgraceful shambles and from the outside the rest of the world will be thinking whatâ€™s going on.

The Irish border is 50% the EUs responsibility though I would have thought!


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## harpo_72 (Sep 4, 2019)

Thatâ€™s why they have to agree Borisâ€™ proposal as he has not accepted theirs


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And why should they. I have said before it's like a Union Convenor going to the Management in a pay dispute saying "We want a substantial wage increase but before we start negotiating I am informing you we will not take any industrial action"
		
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Totally agree .
But itâ€™s the trade union party that wants this removed from the table, thatâ€™s what I canâ€™t get my head round.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 4, 2019)

That bill wasnâ€™t proposed and the general election was not called for ... until the date is locked down. 


Parsaregood said:



			The election date if proposed in a bill would be the 15th October, I've never heard Boris Johnson say this. Quote your source ? At the end of the day the referendum was a simple vote leave or remain, we voted to leave. We cannot stay in a perpetual motion of limbo. We will have to leave. For those who wish to remain, they are quite entitled to argue for this but first we must leave and the argument remainers wish to put forward can be made. The result of the biggest political vote in Britain's history must be implemented, no if's but's or maybe's.
		
Click to expand...


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thatâ€™s why they have to agree Borisâ€™ proposal as he has not accepted theirs
		
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Thatâ€™s the rub .
Itâ€™s not Teresaâ€™s or Boris proposals itâ€™s the UK governments proposals.
The EU are dealing with the government not individuals.
They have just lit the blue paper and are sitting back waiting for the explosion!


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## woody69 (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
No its not.
		
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The *Conservatives* were the ones with a majority. The *conservatives* were the ones who had an internal schism over Europe, they decided to put the health of their party above that of the country, and solve it by organising a referendum. The *Conservatives* (with their majority) set up the referendum. The *conservative* PM who arrogantly made this mistake then promptly resigned. The next *conservative* PM set so many red lines that she couldnâ€™t get any meaningful concessions from the EU. That same *conservative* PM then called another election, again arrogantly thinking she would get enough of a majority to force through a hard Brexit. That *Conservative* PM then lost her majority, and decided to try and force it through anyway despite clearly having no mandate for it. The *conservative* ERG voted down their own prime ministers bill because it wasnâ€™t a hard enough Brexit. The *conservative* ERG even held a vote of no confidence in the PM to try and force her out and install their own man. The *conservatives* then voted in this mop haired clown thatâ€™s trying once again to force something damaging though parliament to which there is no mandate. And once again *conservative* MPs rebelled against their own PM. 

I have plenty of criticisms of the Labour leadershipâ€™s Brexit strategy since 2016, theyâ€™ve tried pleasing everyone and sat on the fence, they couldnâ€™t have done much of anything to stop the Tories making the mess of Brexit that they have done. Labour MPs were voted in on a mandate of a soft Brexit (in their 2017 manifesto) its not up to them to prop the Tory version of Brexit up and get it through Parliament, just because May and now Johnson say that their Brexit is the only one that respects the referendum. 

As for the SNP and the Lib Demâ€™s, well theyâ€™ve been very clear that they donâ€™t want to leave at all. Again, itâ€™s not up to them to betray those who voted them into parliament by voting for a Tory hard Brexit. 

At the end of the day, the Tories are the party in government, they have been from the very beginning of this debacle. 

This is very clearly their mess, they should be made to own it.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			That bill wasnâ€™t proposed and the general election was not called for ... until the date is locked down.
		
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Boris Johnson sets the date before parliament vote on it, I'm not sure he would blatantly lie in front of millions of people. He and the conservatives would be done for good in that case. Nobody would do that unless mentally unstable


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## harpo_72 (Sep 4, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Boris Johnson sets the date before parliament vote on it, I'm not sure he would blatantly lie in front of millions of people. He and the conservatives would be done for good in that case. Nobody would do that unless mentally unstable
		
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Itâ€™s not like he has lied before .. ever.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

woody69 said:



			The *Conservatives* were the ones with a majority. The *conservatives* were the ones who had an internal schism over Europe, they decided to put the health of their party above that of the country, and solve it by organising a referendum. The *Conservatives* (with their majority) set up the referendum. The *conservative* PM who arrogantly made this mistake then promptly resigned. The next *conservative* PM set so many red lines that she couldnâ€™t get any meaningful concessions from the EU. That same *conservative* PM then called another election, again arrogantly thinking she would get enough of a majority to force through a hard Brexit. That *Conservative* PM then lost her majority, and decided to try and force it through anyway despite clearly having no mandate for it. The *conservative* ERG voted down their own prime ministers bill because it wasnâ€™t a hard enough Brexit. The *conservative* ERG even held a vote of no confidence in the PM to try and force her out and install their own man. The *conservatives* then voted in this mop haired clown thatâ€™s trying once again to force something damaging though parliament to which there is no mandate. And once again *conservative* MPs rebelled against their own PM.

I have plenty of criticisms of the Labour leadershipâ€™s Brexit strategy since 2016, theyâ€™ve tried pleasing everyone and sat on the fence, they couldnâ€™t have done much of anything to stop the Tories making the mess of Brexit that they have done. Labour MPs were voted in on a mandate of a soft Brexit (in their 2017 manifesto) its not up to them to prop the Tory version of Brexit up and get it through Parliament, just because May and now Johnson say that their Brexit is the only one that respects the referendum.

As for the SNP and the Lib Demâ€™s, well theyâ€™ve been very clear that they donâ€™t want to leave at all. Again, itâ€™s not up to them to betray those who voted them into parliament by voting for a Tory hard Brexit.

At the end of the day, the Tories are the party in government, they have been from the very beginning of this debacle.

This is very clearly their mess, they should be made to own it.
		
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Spot on.
Just to save anyone else posting the normal counter arguments, remember:
Jeremy Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser and Dianne Abbott canâ€™t count.

Therefore itâ€™s all Labourâ€™s fault.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

woody69 said:



			The *Conservatives* were the ones with a majority. The *conservatives* were the ones who had an internal schism over Europe, they decided to put the health of their party above that of the country, and solve it by organising a referendum. The *Conservatives* (with their majority) set up the referendum. The *conservative* PM who arrogantly made this mistake then promptly resigned. The next *conservative* PM set so many red lines that she couldnâ€™t get any meaningful concessions from the EU. That same *conservative* PM then called another election, again arrogantly thinking she would get enough of a majority to force through a hard Brexit. That *Conservative* PM then lost her majority, and decided to try and force it through anyway despite clearly having no mandate for it. The *conservative* ERG voted down their own prime ministers bill because it wasnâ€™t a hard enough Brexit. The *conservative* ERG even held a vote of no confidence in the PM to try and force her out and install their own man. The *conservatives* then voted in this mop haired clown thatâ€™s trying once again to force something damaging though parliament to which there is no mandate. And once again *conservative* MPs rebelled against their own PM. 

I have plenty of criticisms of the Labour leadershipâ€™s Brexit strategy since 2016, theyâ€™ve tried pleasing everyone and sat on the fence, they couldnâ€™t have done much of anything to stop the Tories making the mess of Brexit that they have done. Labour MPs were voted in on a mandate of a soft Brexit (in their 2017 manifesto) its not up to them to prop the Tory version of Brexit up and get it through Parliament, just because May and now Johnson say that their Brexit is the only one that respects the referendum. 

As for the SNP and the Lib Demâ€™s, well theyâ€™ve been very clear that they donâ€™t want to leave at all. Again, itâ€™s not up to them to betray those who voted them into parliament by voting for a Tory hard Brexit. 

At the end of the day, the Tories are the party in government, they have been from the very beginning of this debacle. 

This is very clearly their mess, they should be made to own it.
		
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No they didnt


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I voted to Leave, I never ever voted to Leave with No Deal, the Leave campaign also said weâ€™d have a deal.

1 Party has dealt with the EU, they have never been joined up since TM started the negotiations.

If Parliament had voted for her deal the same way they defeated vote of no confidence weâ€™d be out.

Yes it may of been a bad deal, but weâ€™d be out.
		
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 David Cameron said we would leave on WTO terms if we didnâ€™t have a deal. 
Did you not know what you was voting for?


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## woody69 (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No they didnt
		
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Odd that you do nothing but accuse others of being "trolls", but add very little to the debate yourself.

In Internet slang, a *troll* is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain


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## Parsaregood (Sep 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s not like he has lied before .. ever.
		
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I think what you are inciting might happen is extremely far-fetched, although parliament will decide of that there is no doubt. I think the main reason the opposition is against an election is simply because it would not win and even if labour + a resurgent lib dem outfit could squeeze a 1 or 2 majority, there would be no common ground in the longer term strategy for brexit with the lib dems wanting to scrap it altogether


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

I


woody69 said:



			Odd that you do nothing but accuse others of being "trolls", but add very little to the debate yourself.

In Internet slang, a *troll* is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain
		
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I add a great deal to the debate but notice a number of posters use these silly one liners all the time. Thought I would give it a try. Rubbish isnt it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			David Cameron said we would leave on WTO terms if we didnâ€™t have a deal.
Did you not know what you was voting for?
		
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Yes I did, I trusted that Leave would win and weâ€™d leave with a deal.
Every time Cameron opened his mouth he was dismissed and accussed of â€œproject fearâ€ are you saying he was right all along?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2019)

IanM said:



			The fact we are being prevented from leaving is the clearest indication that we need to leave.
		
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Are we not being prevented by our own government ? the same government people then expect to look after us ?

Surely the indication there is our own government is worse than the EU


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## rulefan (Sep 4, 2019)

To the best of my knowledge the word 'deal' did not appear on the ballot paper. 
Unqualified 'Leave' was the vote.
As it happens I voted to remain but the voting nation voted to leave. Just do it.


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## Beezerk (Sep 4, 2019)

So with no deal just about being made illegal, will the remainers who have been bleating on for another referendum with "deal, no deal and remain" on the ballot paper will finally stop banging on about it as it? I'm not sure how they could split the vote in their favour anymore, I'm sure some clever dick with an agenda to stop Brexit with think of one though ðŸ¤”


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

rulefan said:



			To the best of my knowledge the word 'deal' did not appear on the ballot paper.
Unqualified 'Leave' was the vote.
As it happens I voted to remain but the voting nation voted to leave. Just do it.
		
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It also didnâ€™t have the date by which weâ€™d leave.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 4, 2019)

I think the remain strategy is to first try andtake no deal off the table, somehow get in to power, and either have another referendum where there is a choice between a terrible deal negotiated by them or remaining. Or in the lib dems case, no need for any voting, just revoke article 50 and remain without any consultation. There was talk of a coup in government, yes there is but the actual coup is the so called remain MP's trying to disrupt and do anything they can to putt off leaving the EU. They are a disgrace to the UK and democracy.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It also didnâ€™t have the date by which weâ€™d leave.
		
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Triggering article 50 outlined a 2 year period whereby if no deal was reached we would leave when that period was over. 498 MP's voted for this


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Triggering article 50 outlined a 2 year period whereby if no deal was reached we would leave when that period was over. 498 MP's voted for this
		
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Yes, we know how it works, but my answer was a direct response to a specific post.

As in, every scenario, every outcome will never be covered on a ballot paper.


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## Kellfire (Sep 4, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			It's a national disgrace, how this has been allowed to carry on like this. We voted out 3 bluddy years ago and are still in????? our elected Mp's are blocking what the people voted for. Those that are doing this are a disgrace to democracy. What if we had an GE and Nige won? Would these Remoaners then demand another vote again? and again? and again?

I know lets all vote for Corbin and he'll let everyone in to the country and we'll be over run with christ alone knows how many people that we'll have no chance to pay for.

If this happens I'm off.
		
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Cya, you won't be missed. x


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Cya, you won't be missed. x
		
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How ironic


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## Kellfire (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How ironic
		
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No it isn't.


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## JamesR (Sep 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are we not being prevented by our own government ? the same government people then expect to look after us ?

Surely the indication there is our own government is worse than the EU
		
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We want to take back control of our laws from the EU, and give it back to our parliament - but we don't want them to use the power or control they have


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			No it isn't.
		
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Oh yes it is.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)

1. ok - last night official line from Labour was they will back an election 'as the Bill to stop No Deal becomes law.' - and the statement referred to Friday night 2. Now, Labour MPs say Keir Starmer told them at the PLP that Labour will NOT vote for an election until the bill has been passed AND implemented, which means AFTER October 19th  - which obviously means no chance election until much later on


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2019)

JamesR said:



			We want to take back control of our laws from the EU, and give it back to our parliament - but we don't want them to use the power or control they have
		
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Fret not.  I believe that Parliament in the form of the unelected HoL will try and talk the bill out of time...the irony of it all...


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## Hobbit (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Iâ€™d love to know how itâ€™s trolling to hold an opinion held by millions of people.

The people deserve the representation they voted for in the binding votes for MPs, rather than allowing the PM to remove our democratic right to enforce a non binding vote in its stead.

So many people are just handing away their democracy and gift wrapping it for the thieves. Sad.
		
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You constantly seem to forget that once Art 50 was triggered and the Withdrawal Act became law the non-binding vote was superseded.

I agree that the ref was non-binding, and only advisory but you need to drop the blinkers and realise thereâ€™s the Withdrawal Act, comprehensively passed by the MPâ€™s you talk about, that is the binding law now. Itâ€™s the WA that was amended to force May to seek the first extension, and itâ€™ll be the WA that needs amending again.

Forget your non-binding ref. As right as you are in what it was youâ€™re just sounding silly by keeping referring to it as though it carries any weight in the current situation.


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## woody69 (Sep 4, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			It's a national disgrace, how this has been allowed to carry on like this. We voted out 3 bluddy years ago and are still in????? our elected Mp's are blocking what the people voted for. Those that are doing this are a disgrace to democracy. What if we had an GE and Nige won? Would these Remoaners then demand another vote again? and again? and again?

I know lets all vote for Corbin and he'll let everyone in to the country and *we'll be over run with christ alone knows how many people that we'll have no chance to pay for.*

If this happens I'm off.
		
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This is nonsense. 

I did enjoy the irony though that you suggest you would leave the country, i.e. become an immigrant in another country because of the fear of immigrants coming to the UK. Nice one.


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## Kellfire (Sep 4, 2019)

Of course it does - it means we can revoke Article 50 with no democratic wrong doing.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are we not being prevented by our own government ? the same government people then expect to look after us ?

Surely the indication there is our own government is worse than the EU
		
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Think thatâ€™s pretty obvious.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)

Not sure what WJK's tatics are here, possibly sweeping up a few Tory seats ?

1/ Not allowing Johnson to cut and run for an election simply as a tactic to force through a no deal Brexit is one thing - and why opposition right to insist on passage of anti no deal Bill, BUT... 

2/ ...itâ€™s starting to feel like Labour doesnâ€™t want an election at all...and leaving this PM in place knowing heâ€™ll try every trick in book to get what he wants would be irresponsible. Opposition must get Bill through and then seek to force election BEFORE Parliament prorogued.


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fret not.  I believe that Parliament in the form of the unelected HoL will try and talk the bill out of time...the irony of it all...
		
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Well that lasted.


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2019)

Field shows Benn up for what he really is.

It appears that the public change their minds but MPs don't.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Of course it does - it means we can revoke Article 50 with no democratic wrong doing.
		
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What about all the people who voted to leave?
Imo changing the law to get a political outcome is wrong .
That goes for both sides.


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			???? Did you not see *the Labour MP's who voted againt their leader*? There was only 2! How many Labour constituancies votes out?
		
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The entire premise that you can equate/define 'the number following their conscience' to/as 'the number voting against their Leader' and, by implication, 'the number NOT following their conscience' as 'the number NOT voting against their leader' is Twaddle!


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## Old Skier (Sep 4, 2019)

It now appears that the UK leaving the EU on 31 Oct is in EU law so any legislation that is made here is irrelevant.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It now appears that the UK leaving the EU on 31 Oct is in EU law so any legislation that is made here is irrelevant.
		
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Hip Hip Ho)))) I will belive it when I see it.


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I voted to Leave, _I never ever voted to Leave with No Deal_, *the Leave campaign also said weâ€™d have a deal.*
...
		
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_That question/option was not on the voting paper!_
*Did you believe the rest of their statements too? If so, more fool you!*


pauldj42 said:



			1 Party has dealt with the EU, they have never been joined up since TM started the negotiations.
..
		
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If you think that would work, then....well, I've no unoffensive words to describe that!


pauldj42 said:



			If Parliament had voted for her deal the same way they defeated vote of no confidence weâ€™d be out.

Yes it may of been a bad deal, but weâ€™d be out.
		
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Remember HER words...No Deal is better than a BAD Deal!

And it was/is a bad deal because we wouldn't be 'out' - because of the Backstop arrangements!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

Itâ€™s a good job we (the people on here) are not in charge by some of the arguments.
Lots have merit ,lots donâ€™t. On both sides .
But you can see by just our discussion that this is very difficult to sort out.

I donâ€™t know the answer ,and donâ€™t know anyone who does!
Itâ€™s a mess . To many lies, half truths, there is no trust in the system.

If you have to change the law to get a political outcome you are doing it very wrong imo.


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes I did, I trusted that Leave would win and weâ€™d leave with a deal.
Every time Cameron opened his mouth he was dismissed and accussed of â€œproject fearâ€ are you saying he was right all along?
		
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You made at least 1 bad decision about who/what to trust then, though there was plenty of evidence that they were untrustworthy!
On that matter, Cameron WAS right!


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

JamesR said:



			We want to take back control of our laws from the EU, and give it back to our parliament - but we don't want them to use the power or control they have
		
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And THAT really is ironic!


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Of course it does - it means we can revoke Article 50 with no democratic wrong doing.
		
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But certainly 'democratic' consequences!


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## Hobbit (Sep 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Itâ€™s a good job we (the people on here) are not in charge by some of the arguments.
Lots have merit ,lots donâ€™t. On both sides .
But you can see by just our discussion that this is very difficult to sort out.

I donâ€™t know the answer ,and donâ€™t know anyone who does!
Itâ€™s a mess . To many lies, half truths, there is no trust in the system.

If you have to change the law to get a political outcome you are doing it very wrong imo.
		
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I agree with all apart from your last sentence.

The Fixed Term Parliament Act; the current scenario of the Tories losing control of Parliament but unable to call an election means the UK has a puppet government, at the beck and call of which ever parties can cobble together whatever they can agree on and push through.

For example, and lets come away from the current mess, if the other parties proposed and created a law that saw the implementation of a new social care bill. Yes it might well be needed but you now have a new law without looking at affordability. Where's the budget?

And where's the accountability? Labour/LibDem alliance push something through but who takes responsibility for it?


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			...
The people deserve the representation they voted for in the binding votes for MPs, rather than allowing the PM to remove our democratic right to enforce a non binding vote in its stead.
...
		
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What a load of twaddle!


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			What a load of *twaddle*!
		
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Well you've got that right - that's the one vaguely polite word for the whole sorry mess emanating from Westminster: most of mine are Anglo Saxon


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



_That question/option was not on the voting paper!_
*Did you believe the rest of their statements too? If so, more fool you!*

If you think that would work, then....well, I've no unoffensive words to describe that!

Remember HER words...No Deal is better than a BAD Deal!

And it was/is a bad deal because we wouldn't be 'out' - because of the Backstop arrangements!
		
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Twaddle


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

a


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Twaddle
		
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Still donâ€™t like hard cold facts I see.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Still donâ€™t like hard cold facts I see.

Click to expand...

What facts are those? You pontificating and telling me what I should and shouldnâ€™t believe or think.
Iâ€™d rather stick a pineapple up me @r&Â£ than take advice from you.


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## Hobbit (Sep 4, 2019)

Going off at a bit of a tangent, here's one to consider about who doesn't and who does support a No Deal. In the Beeb's own words, 3/4 of Remainers oppose a No Deal, and almost 3/4 of Leavers don't have a problem with No Deal.

That isn't hard to understand at all.

But here's the question; if 3/4 of Remainers oppose a No Deal, and almost 3/4 of Leavers don't oppose a No Deal, why does the graphic on the Beeb's website say the majority of people oppose No Deal?

We know there were more Leavers than Remainers, therefore 3/4 of Leavers is more than 3/4 of Remainers. And its not too difficult to perceive that 3/4 of a bigger number is bigger than 3/4 of a smaller number. Why does the Beeb's graphic suggest otherwise? There will be a little wriggle room in the calculation but... why do the numbers in the graph add up to 103%.

I'm inclined to think I've missed something.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What facts are those? You pontificating and telling me what I should and shouldnâ€™t believe or think.
Iâ€™d rather stick a pineapple up me @r&Â£ than take advice from you.
		
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My advice would be 'not the rough end '


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2019)

I think the PM should send JRM et al to Scotland and prorogue parliament on Thursday until Nov 1st.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Going off at a bit of a tangent, here's one to consider about who doesn't and who does support a No Deal. In the Beeb's own words, 3/4 of Remainers oppose a No Deal, and almost 3/4 of Leavers don't have a problem with No Deal.

That isn't hard to understand at all.

But here's the question; if 3/4 of Remainers oppose a No Deal, and almost 3/4 of Leavers don't oppose a No Deal, why does the graphic on the Beeb's website say the majority of people oppose No Deal?

We know there were more Leavers than Remainers, therefore 3/4 of Leavers is more than 3/4 of Remainers. And its not too difficult to perceive that 3/4 of a bigger number is bigger than 3/4 of a smaller number. Why does the Beeb's graphic suggest otherwise? There will be a little wriggle room in the calculation but... why do the numbers in the graph add up to 103%.

I'm inclined to think I've missed something.
		
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Maybe some floating voters sank.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			My advice would be 'not the rough end '
		
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Iâ€™d try it sidewards if it meant he stopped posting.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It also didnâ€™t have the date by which weâ€™d leave.
		
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Wasnt that two years after article fifty was started.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Wasnt that two years after article fifty was started.
		
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Seriously! Read what my post was in response to!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™d try sidewards if it meant he stopped posting. 

Click to expand...

You certainly would need to go to specsavers with your watering eyes.


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe some floating voters sank.
		
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Or D Abbott is selling maths advice to the BBC


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## Dando (Sep 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			What about all the people who voted to leave?
Imo changing the law to get a political outcome is wrong .
That goes for both sides.
		
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He doesnâ€™t give a toss about those who voted to leave


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)

Whitehall sources confirm it's possible Bercow could rule out a second election vote under the Fixed Term Parliament Act if the Govt fails to win tonight, limiting future options. One insider says it would be 'truly, truly extraordinary' for Bercow to block an election, but still


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2019)

rulefan said:



			To the best of my knowledge the word 'deal' did not appear on the ballot paper.
Unqualified 'Leave' was the vote.
As it happens I voted to remain but the voting nation voted to leave. Just do it.
		
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The amount of nonsense spouted about this being an â€˜advisoryâ€™ vote is contradicted by the evidence of the time â€“ here you can see a copy of the leaflet David Cameronâ€™s government had sent to every household in the country. On page 4 of this document it saysâ€¦

â€œThis is your chance to decide your own future and the future of the United Kingdom.â€

And on page 20 it saysâ€¦

â€œThis is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.â€

Nothing about an â€˜advisoryâ€™ referendum. Nothing about â€˜hardâ€™ or â€˜softâ€™ or â€˜no dealâ€™ Brexit. The simple choice was between leaving or remaining in the EU and the government said it would â€œimplementâ€ the decision made by the voters.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2019)

Anything new ? 

Or is it a case of same crap different day


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The amount of nonsense spouted about this being an â€˜advisoryâ€™ vote is contradicted by the evidence of the time â€“ here you can see a copy of the leaflet David Cameronâ€™s government had sent to every household in the country. On page 4 of this document it saysâ€¦

â€œThis is your chance to decide your own future and the future of the United Kingdom.â€

And on page 20 it saysâ€¦

â€œThis is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.â€

Nothing about an â€˜advisoryâ€™ referendum. Nothing about â€˜hardâ€™ or â€˜softâ€™ or â€˜no dealâ€™ Brexit. The simple choice was between leaving or remaining in the EU and the government said it would â€œimplementâ€ the decision made by the voters.
		
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Hereâ€™s a copy of the Leave Leaflet, promising a Deal, everyone agreeâ€™s lots of nonsense is spouted before and during any campaign.
I donâ€™t believe anybody on the Leave side campaigned for a No Deal exit and when Cameron brought it up he was accused of scaremongering.

The Referendum is over, we need to Leave, but, imo, with a deal.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)

Bercow ruling that Queen's Consent is not required for the Benn bill. 
Good god, #bercow has usurped the 
@TheRoyalFam_FP
 he has installed himself as king


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Whitehall sources confirm it's possible Bercow could rule out a second election vote under the Fixed Term Parliament Act if the Govt fails to win tonight, limiting future options. One insider says it would be 'truly, truly extraordinary' for Bercow to block an election, but still
		
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Are you in fact Robert Peston? I didn't have him down as a golfer but he does have mornings free so it does make sense to play golf.

I know some quotes you post are from him, some are not, but every post I read now is in the manner of Peston and i visualise him speaking it ðŸ˜„. If you are him, please get your bloomin hair cut. That flappy fringe just annoys me.


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What facts are those? You pontificating and telling me what I should and shouldnâ€™t believe or think.
Iâ€™d rather stick a pineapple up me @r&Â£ than take advice from you.
		
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Btw. I'd be happy to provide the pineapple!


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## Foxholer (Sep 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Bercow ruling that Queen's Consent is not required for the Benn bill.
Good god, #bercow has usurped the
@TheRoyalFam_FP
he has installed himself as king
		
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No! He's simply doing his job!


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Hereâ€™s a copy of the Leave Leaflet, promising a Deal, everyone agreeâ€™s lots of nonsense is spouted before and during any campaign.
I donâ€™t believe anybody on the Leave side campaigned for a No Deal exit and when Cameron brought it up he was accused of scaremongering.

The Referendum is over, we need to Leave, but, imo, with a deal.

View attachment 28162

Click to expand...

Canâ€™t argue with that. Shame that Mrs May surrounded herself with remainers and they never tried to get a decent WA...How many of the conservative MPs that Lost the whip were at one time part of her cabinet? I think thatâ€™s quite revealing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2019)

Did this guy really do this ?!?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49578400

And people want the likes of him to represent us ?!? Is this a symbol of the Johnson regime.

What a complete spanner ( sorry spannerâ€™s are useful)!


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## Papas1982 (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Hereâ€™s a copy of the Leave Leaflet, promising a Deal, everyone agreeâ€™s lots of nonsense is spouted before and during any campaign.
I donâ€™t believe anybody on the Leave side campaigned for a No Deal exit and when Cameron brought it up he was accused of scaremongering.

The Referendum is over, we need to Leave, but, imo, with a deal.

View attachment 28162

Click to expand...

The problem with that bit, is that a new deal cannot actually be negotiated, re trade tariffs until we have actually left as the Eu wonâ€™t enterain that as part of any deal.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are you in fact Robert Peston? I didn't have him down as a golfer but he does have mornings free so it does make sense to play golf.

I know some quotes you post are from him, some are not, but every post I read now is in the manner of Peston and i visualise him speaking it ðŸ˜„. If you are him, please get your bloomin hair cut. That flappy fringe just annoys me.
		
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What hair


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			The problem with that bit, is that a new deal cannot actually be negotiated, re trade tariffs until we have actually left as the Eu wonâ€™t enterain that as part of any deal.
		
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Doesnâ€™t the negotiated deal with the EU cover everything already ? Obviously the deal is in the favour of the EU and I suspect any future ones will also certainly ensure the EU donâ€™t get the rough end of the stick


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## Papas1982 (Sep 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Doesnâ€™t the negotiated deal with the EU cover everything already ? Obviously the deal is in the favour of the EU and I suspect any future ones will also certainly ensure the EU donâ€™t get the rough end of the stick
		
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If we stay in, then the trade deals remain as they are. All of it is agreed centrally. So we canâ€™t sort any deals whilst part of the Eu. 

If we leave then we will be able to negotiate with Eu countries as well as the rest of the world and sort our own tarriffs. If we do hard brexit then Iâ€™d imagine the hardline taken by Europe as a whole wonâ€™t be mirrored on smaller individual deals as certain countries wonâ€™t be able to refuse our trade.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			If we stay in, then the trade deals remain as they are. All of it is agreed centrally. So we canâ€™t sort any deals whilst part of the Eu.

If we leave then we will be able to negotiate with Eu countries as well as the rest of the world and sort our own tarriffs. If we do hard brexit then Iâ€™d imagine the hardline taken by Europe as a whole wonâ€™t be mirrored on smaller individual deals as certain countries wonâ€™t be able to refuse our trade.
		
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Iâ€™m taking about the already negotiated withdrawal deal that was agreed the EU 

And the â€œhardlineâ€ surely is just down to the EU protecting their interests and these smaller individual deals are going to have to a lot and substantive to fill a big hole 

Will be interesting to see what we offer in such deals


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No! He's simply doing his job!
		
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To the best of his interests


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			The problem with that bit, is that a new deal cannot actually be negotiated, re trade tariffs until we have actually left as the Eu wonâ€™t enterain that as part of any deal.
		
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Again, we could only make up our minds on the information provided at the time, which that was part of.

Right now I donâ€™t think either side had a clue back then how we should of proceeded.


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## robinthehood (Sep 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did this guy really do this ?!?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49578400

And people want the likes of him to represent us ?!? Is this a symbol of the Johnson regime.

What a complete spanner ( sorry spannerâ€™s are useful)!
		
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Do a quick Google for the memes , there are excellent ones.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Canâ€™t argue with that. Shame that Mrs May surrounded herself with remainers and they never tried to get a decent WA...How many of the conservative MPs that Lost the whip were at one time part of her cabinet? I think thatâ€™s quite revealing.
		
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And she accepted the EUs demand that trade talks would not be discussed untill the Withdrawal money and Irish border had been agreed. That was the point where it took away the means to sort the border and get an agreement that would have been acceptable to most.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Canâ€™t argue with that. Shame that Mrs May surrounded herself with remainers and they never tried to get a decent WA...How many of the conservative MPs that Lost the whip were at one time part of her cabinet? I think thatâ€™s quite revealing.
		
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Itâ€™s a good job TM didnâ€™t take the whip away from those that didnâ€™t support her during her time, most of the present Cabinet (incl the idiot) wouldnâ€™t be in a job.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s a good job TM didnâ€™t take the whip away from those that didnâ€™t support her during her time, most of the present Cabinet (incl the idiot) wouldnâ€™t be in a job.
		
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Corbyn isnt in the cabinet.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Again, we could only make up our minds on the information provided at the time, which that was part of.

Right now I donâ€™t think either side had a clue back then how we should of proceeded.
		
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I fully agree. 

Realistically trade wasn't even properly mentioned when trying to sway support one way or another. Most people didn't consider it until the brexit deal. Hit the wall.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Iâ€™m taking about the already negotiated withdrawal deal that was agreed the EU 

And the â€œhardlineâ€ surely is just down to the EU protecting their interests and these smaller individual deals are going to have to a lot and substantive to fill a big hole 

Will be interesting to see what we offer in such deals
		
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Well he current deal doesn't work due to the Irish border. That'll never get through parliament. 

The tariffs as far as I recall stayed as they were if we agreed. But as much as they've put their deal to us and May tried to get it through. Its simply not doable. 

Re the new deals we could make, hearing how the government plans to proceed via conversations at work. Clueless would be how I'd sum up their plans.

Their basically gonna let everything in and clear it after the vent as such. Imo massive hits will be taken as companies will blatantly under declare goods to circumvent tax once they know its all gonna be taken at face value with no checks in place.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Corbyn isnt in the cabinet.
		
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Pity, your previous post (#12207) was so grown up as well.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Pity, your previous post (#12207) was so grown up as well. 

Click to expand...

Lighten up ðŸ™„

Anyhow you started it "(incl the idiot)" ðŸ˜‰


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2019)

The EU has stated that the cost to the UK of an extension will rise above the UK's current membership rate. So those who believe the status quo will continue might want to wake up, the UK will get ripped off to the tune of about Â£1bn per month. JC better have good fertilser for the Labour money tree.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

I canâ€™t belive the government have slipped an amendment to the bill under the noses of opposition.
It could potentially stop all talks according to ch4 news.
You couldnâ€™t make it up.


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## robinthehood (Sep 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			The EU has stated that the cost to the UK of an extension will rise above the UK's current membership rate. So those who believe the status quo will continue might want to wake up, the UK will get ripped off to the tune of about Â£1bn per month. JC better have good fertilser for the Labour money tree.
		
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It's not 1 billion though is it really.....


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's not 1 billion though is it really.....
		
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He said "To the tune of"


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			The EU has stated that the cost to the UK of an extension will rise above the UK's current membership rate. So those who believe the status quo will continue might want to wake up, the UK will get ripped off to the tune of about Â£1bn per month. JC better have good fertilser for the Labour money tree.
		
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Itâ€™s not his money!
Like most MPs he wonâ€™t be arsed.


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## robinthehood (Sep 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He said "To the tune of"
		
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Its not to the tune of 1 billion though is it really .


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I canâ€™t belive the government have slipped an amendment to the bill under the noses of opposition.
It could potentially stop all talks according to ch4 news.
You couldnâ€™t make it up.
		
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So the TM deal will be dragged out. What is Bercow going to do now.

Very strange that amendment was passed simply because of a lack of tellers.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Its not to the tune of 1 billion though is it really .
		
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What is it then?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			So the TM deal will be dragged out. What is Bercow going to do now.

Very strange that amendment was passed simply because of a lack of tellers.
		
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Shows how the process if flawed if that can happen on the most important day in Parliament for decades.


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## Dando (Sep 4, 2019)

Canâ€™t beleive red jezza is prattling on about a democratic vote being upheld ðŸ˜‚


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## Dando (Sep 4, 2019)

Now blackford is going on about democracy being upheld.


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## IainP (Sep 4, 2019)

"
*Â£1 billion a month is a ballpark figure for our contributions to the EU budget, but it needs context*
If Mr. Raab is comparing the cost of any extension to a no deal exit at the end of October, then his figure of Â£1 billion for monthly EU contributions is in the right ballpark. However, as BBC Reality Check has pointed out, this doesnâ€™t factor in payments received from the EU, which would reduce the amount by about a quarter."


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			Now blackford is going on about democracy being upheld.
		
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Bloody separatists!ðŸ˜


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Once again we have Tory MPâ€™s voting against their leader and Party, yet all the comments are having a go/poking fun at opposition leaders and Parties.
Until the Tories and their supporters take responsibilty for what they have done to their own Party and each other, we are going nowhere.
Worth a listen to â€œThe Father of the Houseâ€ from a few moments ago.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169328135701090305


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2019)

I guess Dominic Greive will be spending more time in his French mansion while his Beaconsfield constituents queue for a 'surgery!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Excuse language, 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169285052490031108


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Once again we have Tory MPâ€™s voting against their leader and Party, yet all the comments are having a go/poking fun at opposition leaders and Parties.
Until the Tories and their supporters take responsibilty for what they have done to their own Party and each other, we are going nowhere.
Worth a listen to â€œThe Father of the Houseâ€ from a few moments ago.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169328135701090305

Click to expand...


 Clarke â€“ a pointless yesterday man trying to make out he still has influence and people are willing to listen to his words of wisdom.
He stopped being a conservative when 
 the stupid old twat said that he would support a Labour government led by Corbyn if it would prevent a No-deal Brexit, but only as long as he wouldnâ€™t introduce any of the more extreme Labour policies! 

So what do you think he would do if he became PM, you daft old fool?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Excuse language,


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169285052490031108

Click to expand...

Twaddle!  Anyone rolling out this crap is getting desperate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Clarke â€“ a pointless yesterday man trying to make out he still has influence and people are willing to listen to his words of wisdom.
He stopped being a conservative when
the stupid old twat said that he would support a Labour government led by Corbyn if it would prevent a No-deal Brexit, but only as long as he wouldnâ€™t introduce any of the more extreme Labour policies!

So what do you think he would do if he became PM, you daft old fool?
		
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Thatâ€™s the tory way, slander and kick out anyone who dares have a voice.
I guess you believe TM should of kicked out the idiot and his cronies when he voted against her twice? Or is that different?


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s the tory way, slander and kick out anyone who dares have a voice.
I guess you believe TM should of kicked out the idiot and his cronies when he voted against her twice? Or is that different?

Click to expand...

1st point, Clarke should have defected to the Lib undemocrats a long time ago, his views have been at odds with the conservatives for years now. Tbh he should have crept off to the HOL years ago. (Ditto that disgrace Soames)
2nd point TM never had the spine for the job, Boris knows to put a stop to The Great Betrayal he needs to be brutal. Kick the traitors out, make sure everyone is on the same page.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			1st point, Clarke should have defected to the Lib undemocrats a long time ago, his views have been at odds with the conservatives for years now. Tbh he should have crept off to the HOL years ago. (Ditto that disgrace Soames)
2nd point TM never had the spine for the job, Boris knows to put a stop to The Great Betrayal he needs to be brutal. Kick the traitors out, make sure everyone is on the same page.
		
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Great Betrayal?

Iâ€™m confused - when other Tories voted against the previous PM was it a betrayal ? Where they kicked out of the party ? Where they insulted in the same way ? Where they traitors then ? 

A lot of this all smacks of double standards - if an MP voted your way but against the party line I suspect you would look at that MP different to the MP who voted the Party Line but against your opinion 

Thatâ€™s what this all boils down to - country split in two - some MPâ€™s doing what half the country and some MPâ€™s doing what the other want - itâ€™s why this whole process has caused a lot of damage to this country regardless of what the conclusion is.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 4, 2019)

I dispair of all the arguements and crap flying around about this all.
I freely say I voted to stay in, but was happy to accept the vote outcome.
But now with all the jism the whole lot of them are spouting, game playing, monies made betting against the pound and supporting British companies such as giving the new passport contract to the French I give up.
This is no longer about whats best for the country or what anyone voted for, it's about ideology and dogma. We are a laughing stock of the highest order, and no-one will think the British democracy and establishment are anything but baffoons of the highest order.
I'm sick and tired of the whole thing, the arguements, bickering, going round and round in circles I'm right your wrong.
It stinks, and I  now feel totally embarressed to be British.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 4, 2019)

So Depfeffel takes another one in his arse. 

The peopleâ€™s saviour is doing a spiffing job of uniting the anti Brexit elements of parliament. The man is a tool, advised by a tool.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 4, 2019)

* in with _twaddle _before the twaddlers turn up ......


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			1st point, Clarke should have defected to the Lib undemocrats a long time ago, his views have been at odds with the conservatives for years now. Tbh he should have crept off to the HOL years ago. (Ditto that disgrace Soames)
2nd point TM never had the spine for the job, Boris knows to put a stop to The Great Betrayal he needs to be brutal. Kick the traitors out, make sure everyone is on the same page.
		
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Wow, just wow, is this serious? Great Betrayal and Traitors? 
His Cabinet is what you should be looking at for traitors, 1 sacked for breaking the Official Secrets Act another sacked for talking to a Foreign Government without authority and heâ€™s re-employed them.
I genuinely donâ€™t think you understand what youâ€™ve written, itâ€™s embarrassing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2019)

So in summary today Boris has been beaten twice ?

The bill to stop a No Deal Brexit was approved ? Is that right?

And MPs didnâ€™t back his call for a General Election 

So do we have two scenarios left - leave with the deal TM got or revoke Art50 ?


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Great Betrayal?*

Iâ€™m confused - when other Tories voted against the previous PM was it a betrayal ? Where they kicked out of the party ? Where they insulted in the same way ? Where they traitors then ?

A lot of this all smacks of double standards - if an MP voted your way but against the party line I suspect you would look at that MP different to the MP who voted the Party Line but against your opinion

Thatâ€™s what this all boils down to - country split in two - some MPâ€™s doing what half the country and some MPâ€™s doing what the other want - itâ€™s why this whole process has caused a lot of damage to this country regardless of what the conclusion is.
		
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it is over 1,150 days since the referendum that resulted in a decision to leave the European Union. In the name of all the gods that have never existed, surely that is enough time for Parliament to have sorted out the issues involved in exiting an organisation that has only existed in its current form for 26 years? They havenâ€™t because they do not want to. THAT is The Great Betrayal of the British people by parliament.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 4, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			it is over 1,150 days since the referendum that resulted in a decision to leave the European Union. In the name of all the gods that have never existed, surely that is enough time for Parliament to have sorted out the issues involved in exiting an organisation that has only existed in its current form for 26 years? They havenâ€™t because they do not want to. THAT is The Great Betrayal of the British people by parliament.
		
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ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ A tad overreacting there donâ€™t you think - itâ€™s not a â€œGreat Betrayalâ€ , what it does show is how complicated it was from the start and the issue were for more in depth than anyone reason and it wasnâ€™t something that could be resolved on a basic yes no majority vote.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Wow, just wow, is this serious? Great Betrayal and Traitors?
His Cabinet is what you should be looking at for traitors, 1 sacked for breaking the Official Secrets Act another sacked for talking to a Foreign Government without authority and heâ€™s re-employed them.
I genuinely donâ€™t think you understand what youâ€™ve written, itâ€™s embarrassing.
		
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Your red specs are clouding your view again. I blame all of Parliament for this fubar situation. Stop being so precious thinking itâ€™s all a dig at your magic grandpa.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 4, 2019)

Do we agree that any forthcoming GE is likely to be a de facto second ref on â€œrevokeâ€ or â€œno dealâ€?


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## Beezerk (Sep 4, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Do we agree that any forthcoming GE is likely to be a de facto second ref on â€œrevokeâ€ or â€œno dealâ€?
		
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Like I said earlier,  no deal doesn't exist as an option anymore so how can it now be part of a GE mandate?
It will be more a leave or remain,  but erm, where have we had that one before? ðŸ¤”


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## Fade and Die (Sep 4, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ *A tad overreacting there donâ€™t you think -* itâ€™s not a â€œGreat Betrayalâ€ , what it does show is how complicated it was from the start and the issue were for more in depth than anyone reason and it wasnâ€™t something that could be resolved on a basic yes no majority vote.
		
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No I think itâ€™s quite proportional. When Parliament disregards the will of the people like this only a fool would not be concerned.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 4, 2019)

The tories will only have candidates who support no deal so they will have a majority post GE to overturn later.  They will have to do this or Farage will ream them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Your red specs are clouding your view again. I blame all of Parliament for this fubar situation. Stop being so precious thinking itâ€™s all a dig at your magic grandpa.
		
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Itâ€™s you reading too much, Iâ€™m able to separate Party Politics with Brexit.
In case youâ€™ve missed it I VOTED LEAVE.

You are talking about betrayal and traitors, were was this language when TM lost the first vote?
Were have I supported Corbynâ€™s position on Brexit?

I donâ€™t care what colour rosette an MP wears, I donâ€™t want a No Deal.

Until a PM can quantify the damage a No Deal will cause, whether that be 1 day or 1 week or 1 year etc, then it should not be acceptable to anyone imo.


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## Beezerk (Sep 4, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			The tories will only have candidates who support no deal so they will have a majority post GE to overturn later.  They will have to do this or Farage will ream them.
		
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Not sure about how the Torys will stand,  Lib Dems are the only real remain vote at the minute, but who would vote for the uni fees liars? Labour, I listen to discussion about politics most days and I still have absolutely no idea what their stance is, they are an embarrassment of an opposition party with no real leadership. 
Take your pick out of that lot lol


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2019)

So how many times did Ireland take before they got the answer right on their multiple choice question of 2.

Looks awfully like the UK is on the same EU quiz.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s you reading too much, Iâ€™m able to separate Party Politics with Brexit.
In case youâ€™ve missed it I VOTED LEAVE.

*You are talking about betrayal and traitors, were was this language when TM lost the first vote?*
Were have I supported Corbynâ€™s position on Brexit?

I donâ€™t care what colour rosette an MP wears, I donâ€™t want a No Deal.

Until a PM can quantify the damage a No Deal will cause, whether that be 1 day or 1 week or 1 year etc, then it should not be acceptable to anyone imo.
		
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Theresa "No deal is better than a bad deal" May's dog's dinner of a deal was seen through as BRINO and tying us to the EU; it was rejected by the House and in doing so they were seen as trying to enact the result of the referendum, hence they were not seen as betraying the result & the public.

Tonight's vote has tied Boris Johnson's hands and made it nigh on impossible to negotiate a decent deal as it has taken away the bargaining card of leaving with no deal.  Everything you look at in the bill is designed to either resurrect the dog's dinner, extend the negotiating period or revoke Article 50, all of which keeps us in the EU and amounts to a betrayal of the referendum result.

Hopefully BJ does not achieve a deal and the EU stick with their promise no to extend the time limit and kick us out.  But as Hammond has apparently found out, they are as morally bankrupt as our lot, desperate to hang on to the money and the power and despite the talk that there will be no extension, they will extend the deadline & bleed us dry whilst they do.  They should be ashamed of themselves, but as become apparent, they have no shame.


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2019)

Perhaps Macron will refuse an extention, he was playing hardball last time. 

In any case why would the EU want trouble making UK back? given the number of Brexit Party MEPs from the UK they would have permanently siting.


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## User62651 (Sep 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			Perhaps Macron will refuse an extention, he was playing hardball last time.

In any case why would the EU want trouble making UK back? given the number of Brexit Party MEPs from the UK they would have permanently siting.
		
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169 MEPs from eurosceptic parties across EU elected this year, only 29 are Brexit Party. Just pointing out there will always be anti EU voices represented from all member states in the European parliament, that's absolutely fine, all voices should be represented.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 4, 2019)

We should boycott Eurovision until they offer us a deal


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			Perhaps Macron will refuse an extention, he was playing hardball last time.

*In any case why would the EU want trouble making UK back? *given the number of Brexit Party MEPs from the UK they would have permanently siting.
		
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Money; pure & simple.  With the number of net contributors economies in trouble, they can't afford to lose one & keep the dream of the Federal European Republic alive.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Money; pure & simple.  With the number of net contributors economies in trouble, they can't afford to lose one & keep the dream of the Federal European Republic alive.
		
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The irony is if we stay in the EU we will be funding the Federal dream.

If Boris wins the GE the first thing he will do is reverse this no deal bill that takes it off the table.
The EU know it ,Corybn knows it .

So just get the GE done and let the electorate decide.
There is no need for a extension.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Theresa "No deal is better than a bad deal" May's dog's dinner of a deal was seen through as BRINO and tying us to the EU; it was rejected by the House and in doing so they were seen as trying to enact the result of the referendum, hence they were not seen as betraying the result & the public.

Tonight's vote has tied Boris Johnson's hands and made it nigh on impossible to negotiate a decent deal as it has taken away the bargaining card of leaving with no deal.  Everything you look at in the bill is designed to either resurrect the dog's dinner, extend the negotiating period or revoke Article 50, all of which keeps us in the EU and amounts to a betrayal of the referendum result.

Hopefully BJ does not achieve a deal and the EU stick with their promise no to extend the time limit and kick us out.  But as Hammond has apparently found out, they are as morally bankrupt as our lot, desperate to hang on to the money and the power and despite the talk that there will be no extension, they will extend the deadline & bleed us dry whilst they do.  They should be ashamed of themselves, but as become apparent, they have no shame.
		
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Itâ€™s only tied the PMâ€™s hands if he is to be believed, he switches from saying he believes he can get a better deal to saying we leave on the 31st Oct with no deal regardless.
Whose he bluffing? Us? The EU? Both? 

I genuinely have no faith in him, heâ€™s a known liar, second only to Prince Philip in embarrassing himself in public, heâ€™s now asking for support from MPâ€™s that heâ€™s failed to give previous PMâ€™s himself in the past and then sacking them.

Iâ€™ll ask you question, If he comes back with a deal and for some tory MPâ€™s, who want the No Deal, vote against him will you be happy when he sacks them?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s only tied the PMâ€™s hands if he is to be believed, he switches from saying he believes he can get a better deal to saying we leave on the 31st Oct with no deal regardless.
Whose he bluffing? Us? The EU? Both?

I genuinely have no faith in him, heâ€™s a known liar, second only to Prince Philip in embarrassing himself in public, heâ€™s now asking for support from MPâ€™s that heâ€™s failed to give previous PMâ€™s himself in the past and then sacking them.

Iâ€™ll ask you question, If he comes back with a deal and for some tory MPâ€™s, who want the No Deal, vote against him will you be happy when he sacks them?
		
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How naive are you. He isn't coming back with any deal, he's been hamstrung by MPs and has nothing to bargain with.  While you're  throwing the 'liar' card around i guess you withhold it from Corbyn and his insistence that he is ready for an election at any time, also his and all those that previously stated they respected the leave vote.  You cannot defend the undefendable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How naive are you. He isn't coming back with any deal, he's been hamstrung by MPs and has nothing to bargain with.  While you're  throwing the 'liar' card around i guess you withhold it from Corbyn and his insistence that he is ready for an election at any time, also his and all those that previously stated they respected the leave vote.  You cannot defend the undefendable.
		
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And you revert to type by deflecting, were have I mentioned Corbyn! 

Why do you suddenly think he can get a better deal, if youâ€™re correct itâ€™s a win win, EU donâ€™t talk, donâ€™t extend past 31st October and because of them we leave with No deal, he states â€œI tried, all their faultâ€

Itâ€™s not me whoâ€™s naive, itâ€™s the people believing heâ€™s some sort of messiah.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And you revert to type by deflecting, were have I mentioned Corbyn! 

Why do you suddenly think he can get a better deal, if youâ€™re correct itâ€™s a win win, EU donâ€™t talk, donâ€™t extend past 31st October and because of them we leave with No deal, he states â€œI tried, all their faultâ€

Itâ€™s not me whoâ€™s naive, itâ€™s the people believing heâ€™s some sort of messiah.
		
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You cannot remove Corbyn from this current situation. I explained he has been insisting on an election to sort the Brexit impasse but when given the ooppertunity he decides its not the time.  You couldn't make it up. ðŸ™„

I only see Boris being able to get a better deal if he gets the support of parliament. The cornerstone of this is the referendum result where you and I voted to leave and due to the shinanigans of remainer MPs this is being thwarted.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

Up late tonight watching the HOL debating the current Brexit no deal proposals.  What is this house about, its overloaded by its representation of the House of Commons . It needs kicking onto the long grass and replaced by something less partisan and representative of society.


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

2nd referendum-peopleâ€™s vote. 

Call a GE and let the people vote. Oh itâ€™s gone very quiet on that one this week.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s only tied the PMâ€™s hands if he is to be believed, he switches from saying he believes he can get a better deal to saying we leave on the 31st Oct with no deal regardless.
Whose he bluffing? Us? The EU? Both?

I genuinely have no faith in him, heâ€™s a known liar, second only to Prince Philip in embarrassing himself in public, heâ€™s now asking for support from MPâ€™s that heâ€™s failed to give previous PMâ€™s himself in the past and then sacking them.
*
Iâ€™ll ask you question, If he comes back with a deal and for some tory MPâ€™s, who want the No Deal, vote against him will you be happy when he sacks them?*

Click to expand...

Until I see the deal I can't answer that; if he comes back with a deal like Theresa May's, I'll be more than happy for people to vote against him, if he comes back with a decent one then I'll be furious if they vote against him.  In the latter circumstance I'll be happy for him to sack them.

As regards the liar tag, every damn one of them do that and I have far greater concerns about Corbyn & Abbott than I do about Johnson.  And failing to support May's deal was doing the country a service.


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## Imurg (Sep 5, 2019)

298-56
If this was an important vote where the hell were the rest of the house..?
And how is that not a big enough majority?
Or was it just assumed the missing members ( and I mean that most sincerely Folks) votes weren't required.?
This bunch wouldn't cut it in the playground of the local junior school.
Are we in a version of the Truman Show and the audience are wetting themselves laughing..?


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## Dando (Sep 5, 2019)

Imurg said:



			298-56
If this was an important vote where the hell were the rest of the house..?
And how is that not a big enough majority?
Or was it just assumed the missing members ( and I mean that most sincerely Folks) votes weren't required.?
This bunch wouldn't cut it in the playground of the local junior school.
Are we in a version of the Truman Show and the audience are wetting themselves laughing..?
		
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Boris needed a majority of the total house not just a majority of the votes cast


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## Imurg (Sep 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Boris needed a majority of the total house not just a majority of the votes cast
		
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That just has to be wrong...the system is just .....I haven't got words for it.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 5, 2019)

Imurg said:



			298-56
If this was an important vote where the hell were the rest of the house..?
And how is that not a big enough majority?
Or was it just assumed the missing members ( and I mean that most sincerely Folks) votes weren't required.?
This bunch wouldn't cut it in the playground of the local junior school.
Are we in a version of the Truman Show and the audience are wetting themselves laughing..?
		
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Labour abstained en mass, 

I give up now, itâ€™s an utter farce and this country has its trousers round itâ€™s ankles.

Luckily for the politicians the British version of a revolution consists of a few tuts and shakes of the head.

If this happened in France, they would have built a guillotine by now


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## Kellfire (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle!  Anyone rolling out this crap is getting desperate.
		
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I guess Jonathan Pie is something you don't understand. Colour me shocked.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2019)

Do these two people really lead our country right now ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ Iâ€™m not sure whatâ€™s worse for us - Johnson and the idiot lounging around , Corbyn and his cronies , Farage and his lot or the EU - not looking good is it , up the proverbial creek without paddle

I am confused on something - over the last year is it they have had countless votes about many things to do with Brexit and there have been Tory MPâ€™s that have voted against the PM as is their right surely , some of those people are now in the cabinet or senior positions. Johnson appears to have been defeated in every vote he has ( not sure what that says about him ) and any Tory MP that has voted against he has just kicked out , is that right ? Can he do that ?.

So to me it seems itâ€™s one person calling the shots ? If you donâ€™t agree with that one person , youâ€™re gone - that to me doesnâ€™t appear to be a democrat government we have that seems to be more along the lines of a dictatorship surely ? And even more so a dictator that hasnâ€™t been voted in by the public he is supposed to serve - and to clarify thatâ€™s the whole public and not just a certain percentage

Christ we really are a mess - and people still want these to look after our countries needs if we leave the EU ? Good luck


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## Parsaregood (Sep 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 28163
View attachment 28165


Do these two people really lead our country right now ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ Iâ€™m not sure whatâ€™s worse for us - Johnson and the idiot lounging around , Corbyn and his cronies , Farage and his lot or the EU - not looking good is it , up the proverbial creek without paddle

I am confused on something - over the last year is it they have had countless votes about many things to do with Brexit and there have been Tory MPâ€™s that have voted against the PM as is their right surely , some of those people are now in the cabinet or senior positions. Johnson appears to have been defeated in every vote he has ( not sure what that says about him ) and any Tory MP that has voted against he has just kicked out , is that right ? Can he do that ?.

So to me it seems itâ€™s one person calling the shots ? If you donâ€™t agree with that one person , youâ€™re gone - that to me doesnâ€™t appear to be a democrat government we have that seems to be more along the lines of a dictatorship surely ? And even more so a dictator that hasnâ€™t been voted in by the public he is supposed to serve - and to clarify thatâ€™s the whole public and not just a certain percentage

Christ we really are a mess - and people still want these to look after our countries needs if we leave the EU ? Good luck
		
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First off the vote on Tuesday night was made a confidence matter and every conservative MP before voting knew the consequence of voting against a government in a matter of confidence. Also do you not agree this is the reason we need a general election ? A majority can then be restored and we can actually get on with leaving. The opposition are a hopelessly bunch, they dont actually agree on anything on a deeper level than delay brexit for now. The opposition dont agree on brexit. Have they any idea the cost of delaying ? Not only in monetary terms but also the uncertainty is damaging. Conservative have a clear position. The other parties do not. Jacob Rees-mogg often sits like this in debates if the house is half empty, cant really see the problem. Corbyn and his front benches would send even the most staunch of parliamentarians to sleep.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			First off the vote on Tuesday night was made a confidence matter and every conservative MP before voting knew the consequence of voting against a government in a matter of confidence. Also do you not agree this is the reason we need a general election ? A majority can then be restored and we can actually get on with leaving. The opposition are a hopelessly bunch, they dont actually agree on anything on a deeper level than delay brexit for now. The opposition dont agree on brexit. Have they any idea the cost of delaying ? Not only in monetary terms but also the uncertainty is damaging. Conservative have a clear position. The other parties do not. Jacob Rees-mogg often sits like this in debates if the house is half empty, cant really see the problem. Corbyn and his front benches would send even the most staunch of parliamentarians to sleep.
		
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Every MP should be able to vote freely how they wish - its a democratic society , thatâ€™s been thrown around for a while now so it must apply to the people that are supposed to be leading this country - throwing people out because they show free to will is not democratic. Itâ€™s up to the â€œleaderâ€ to re-evaluate things to get his party together , it canâ€™t be and never should be â€œmy way or the high wayâ€ - thatâ€™s not the society we live in - thatâ€™s dictatorship.

And do people really think the Toryâ€™s under the leadership are going actually get a clear majority on their own? People do understand that the country is split right down the middle - there is every chance the majority of the country donâ€™t want Brexit now , every chance , and are people really going to vote for Johnson to lead the country ? He is no better than Corbyn 

They are both an embarrassment to our country and it just shows what a pathetic state our politics is in right now 

All this because the Tory government didnâ€™t think clearly enough when they went about this referendum- congrats they have screwed the country and put a massive divide in it that wonâ€™t heal


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## Parsaregood (Sep 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Every MP should be able to vote freely how they wish - its a democratic society , thatâ€™s been thrown around for a while now so it must apply to the people that are supposed to be leading this country - throwing people out because they show free to will is not democratic. Itâ€™s up to the â€œleaderâ€ to re-evaluate things to get his party together , it canâ€™t be and never should be â€œmy way or the high wayâ€ - thatâ€™s not the society we live in - thatâ€™s dictatorship.

And do people really think the Toryâ€™s under the leadership are going actually get a clear majority on their own? People do understand that the country is split right down the middle - there is every chance the majority of the country donâ€™t want Brexit now , every chance , and are people really going to vote for Johnson to lead the country ? He is no better than Corbyn 

They are both an embarrassment to our country and it just shows what a pathetic state our politics is in right now 

All this because the Tory government didnâ€™t think clearly enough when they went about this referendum- congrats they have screwed the country and put a massive divide in it that wonâ€™t heal
		
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If you wish to stand with your own views only then you should stand as an independent to be elected. If you are a member of a party you have a responsibility. The government is quite right to get rid of a minority within their ranks who vote against them in a matter of confidence. 
   The polls actually suggest an even larger number of people want to leave now with 75% of those who voted leave happy to accept a clean break. The conservatives and the brexit party can strategically ally themselves and get a clear majority and deliver the  clear mandate of the people.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You cannot remove Corbyn from this current situation. I explained he has been insisting on an election to sort the Brexit impasse but when given the ooppertunity he decides its not the time.  You couldn't make it up. ðŸ™„

I only see Boris being able to get a better deal if he gets the support of parliament. The cornerstone of this is the referendum result where you and I voted to leave and due to the shinanigans of remainer MPs this is being thwarted.
		
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We are discussing the PM, please explain how/why you or anyone believe that suddenly after nearly 3 years he can get a deal that his party failed to get.
Why should the rest of Parliament trust him, his own Party donâ€™t.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Until I see the deal I can't answer that; if he comes back with a deal like Theresa May's, I'll be more than happy for people to vote against him, if he comes back with a decent one then I'll be furious if they vote against him.  In the latter circumstance I'll be happy for him to sack them.

As regards the liar tag, every damn one of them do that and I have far greater concerns about Corbyn & Abbott than I do about Johnson.  And failing to support May's deal was doing the country a service.
		
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Heâ€™s not giving Parliament a chance though, why couldnâ€™t he cancel the summer recess or the Party conferences to show his determination to get a job done, weâ€™ve waited 2 years for a Queenâ€™s speech, why couldnâ€™t it of waited another 2 weeks until November.
Itâ€™s ok saying no ifs or buts, businessâ€™s are not ready, what is this magic bullet he has?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Not sure about how the Torys will stand,  Lib Dems are the only real remain vote at the minute, but who would vote for the uni fees liars? Labour, I listen to discussion about politics most days and I still have absolutely no idea what their stance is, they are an embarrassment of an opposition party with no real leadership.
Take your pick out of that lot lol
		
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England only reply.
Like many on here seem to forget that many folk in Scotland have voted remain and that they will return more  SNP MP'S than the Lib Dems
Combined they will probably return over 100 MP'S in the next election.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			If you wish to stand with your own views only then you should stand as an independent to be elected. If you are a member of a party you have a responsibility. The government is quite right to get rid of a minority within their ranks who vote against them in a matter of confidence.
		
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Yet over the last year many people have voted different to the party line or one persons line including people in the cabinet yet they didnâ€™t get thrown out? The vote wasnâ€™t about â€œconfidenceâ€ it was about a bill - simple as that. Boris Johnson is acting like a dictator 




			The polls actually suggest an even larger number of people want to leave now with 75% of those who voted leave happy to accept a clean break. The conservatives and the brexit party can strategically ally themselves and get a clear majority and deliver the  clear mandate of the people.
		
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I donâ€™t recall being asked what my choice would be now - polls have shown over the last number of years to be a waste and inaccurate. 

I saw one headline that said one poll said 61% would back remain ?! Which do we believe 

And 75% out of how many people ? 

And right now no one knows what the â€œclear mandateâ€ of the people is 

3 years ago there was a vote and 52% of the people that turned up voted to leave - thatâ€™s a clear mandate of the people who voted 3 years ago - as I said there is every chance that mandate may well have changed when people look at the state of our political parties and their incompetence to lead us


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			If you wish to stand with your own views only then you should stand as an independent to be elected. If you are a member of a party you have a responsibility. The government is quite right to get rid of a minority within their ranks who vote against them in a matter of confidence.
   The polls actually suggest an even larger number of people want to leave now with 75% of those who voted leave happy to accept a clean break. The conservatives and the brexit party can strategically ally themselves and get a clear majority and deliver the  clear mandate of the people.
		
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So you agree itâ€™s the tories fault then!
Teresa May had a majority in Parliament, her fellow tories failed to vote for her deal, if theyâ€™d of done what you say above should of happened, weâ€™d be out, weâ€™d have a deal.
If sheâ€™d of got rid of those voting against her the current Cabinet would not exist.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 5, 2019)

Don't you all think this is all a MASSIVE ruse being played out by BJ the Bear? He didn't seem bothered about it all and must know how this was all going to play out and seemed to me to just be ploughing on regardless because he knows what he is going to do about it all. Also Rees Mogg lounging around on the benches. Doing his utmost, successfully, to enrage everyone. Neither seem harsed about everything, which indicated to me, they know EXACTLY what they are doing......I hope.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			2nd referendum-peopleâ€™s vote.

Call a GE and let the people vote. Oh itâ€™s gone very quiet on that one this week.
		
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Been just the opposite hasnâ€™t Bri, the PM has united the opposition, something no one else has managed to do.
Letâ€™s see how quick he calls for a GE if the EU extend the deadline.


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Been just the opposite hasnâ€™t Bri, the PM has united the opposition, something no one else has managed to do.
Letâ€™s see how quick he calls for a GE if the EU extend the deadline.
		
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If you look at past votes, on all sorts of issues, all the opposition parties usually vote against a government.

There been a long running campaign about a 2nd ref/people's vote. A GE now, scheduled for Oct 13th, would have given the people the very thing the opposition parties/past PM's, have been asking for. It would have also left time for an incoming PM to go to the EU and ask for an extension, if needed.

Parliament is partaking in the never-ending round of bash each other, with the actual issue being secondary. Its win the argument at all costs, irrespective of the rights or wrongs.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 5, 2019)

Is this the first opposition in history which has refused the offer of a general election? Says everything really


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If you look at past votes, on all sorts of issues, all the opposition parties usually vote against a government.

There been a long running campaign about a 2nd ref/people's vote. A GE now, scheduled for Oct 13th, would have given the people the very thing the opposition parties/past PM's, have been asking for. It would have also left time for an incoming PM to go to the EU and ask for an extension, if needed.

Parliament is partaking in the never-ending round of bash each other, with the actual issue being secondary. Its win the argument at all costs, irrespective of the rights or wrongs.
		
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I donâ€™t think it would give time Bri, heâ€™s playing games, Parliament want No Deal off the table, his actions since becoming PM have caused this. Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, etc, all singing from the 1 song sheet, either heâ€™s incredibly stupid or brilliant, my money ainâ€™t on brilliant.


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2019)

Dando said:



			Boris needed a majority of the total house not just a majority of the votes cast
		
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Wasn't it actually 2/3rds (of 'total house')?


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 5, 2019)

Bj the Bear's language was a tad ripe at Q-Time. Inflamma*tory ?*


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So in summary today Boris has been beaten twice ?

The bill to stop a No Deal Brexit was approved ? Is that right?

And MPs didnâ€™t back his call for a General Election

So do we have two scenarios left - leave with the deal TM got or revoke Art50 ?
		
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As I understand it, there are several ways still for Boris to get a General Election. Those opposing him in this, and at the moment getting the upper hand and their law enacted, must fear that when that election comes, Boris will return with a large majority.
He then presents a Bill making a law which overturns the one passed last night.
It seems impossible that a General Election can be prevented. (Is there any expert on this who can say how it could be?)
And if it can't be, how can what is happening now be anything other  than a delay?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Every MP should be able to vote freely how they wish - its a democratic society , thatâ€™s been thrown around for a while now so it must apply to the people that are supposed to be leading this country - throwing people out because they show free to will is not democratic. Itâ€™s up to the â€œleaderâ€ to re-evaluate things to get his party together , it canâ€™t be and never should be â€œmy way or the high wayâ€ - thatâ€™s not the society we live in - thatâ€™s dictatorship.

And do people really think the Toryâ€™s under the leadership are going actually get a clear majority on their own? People do understand that the country is split right down the middle - there is every chance the majority of the country donâ€™t want Brexit now , every chance , and are people really going to vote for Johnson to lead the country ? He is no better than Corbyn

They are both an embarrassment to our country and it just shows what a pathetic state our politics is in right now

All this because the Tory government didnâ€™t think clearly enough when they went about this referendum- congrats they have screwed the country and put a massive divide in it that wonâ€™t heal
		
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While agreeing most of this .
The main problem for me is we really donâ€™t know what the people want.
We know what the ones who could be bothered to vote want.
I have heard people complain and when asked sayâ€ I donâ€™t bother votingâ€ thatâ€™s how we ended up with this bunch of nomarks.

What amuses me most is the sheer arrogance on both sides.
What makes Corbyn think the EU will give him a good deal with no mechanism to walk away?
Boris has put all his eggs in one basket and MPs have trodden on them.


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## IanM (Sep 5, 2019)

I am pleased to see the Leader of HM Opposition so anxious to ensure the income of the German Car Industry!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t think it would give time Bri, heâ€™s playing games, Parliament want No Deal off the table, his actions since becoming PM have caused this. Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, etc, all singing from the 1 song sheet, either heâ€™s incredibly stupid or brilliant, my money ainâ€™t on brilliant.
		
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What actions are these then. Trying to get a better deal?


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 5, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			As I understand it, there are several ways still for Boris to get a General Election. Those opposing him in this, and at the moment getting the upper hand and their law enacted, must fear that when that election comes, Boris will return with a large majority.
*He then presents a Bill making a law which overturns the one passed last night.*
It seems impossible that a General Election can be prevented. (Is there any expert on this who can say how it could be?)
And if it can't be, how can what is happening now be anything other  than a delay?
		
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Wouldn't he then need a vote on this?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			I guess Jonathan Pie is something you don't understand. Colour me shocked.
		
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Oh, I understand it alright, unlike you I think its twaddle.


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## Beezerk (Sep 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Wouldn't he then need a vote on this?
		
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He'd get it passed easily with a decent majority, maybe why he's dumped those against it the other day?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Wouldn't he then need a vote on this?
		
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Yes but he would have a majority in the house after winning the General Election.
The problem would be a hung parliament and we would be back to square one.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			While agreeing most of this .
The main problem for me is we really donâ€™t know what the people want.
We know what the ones who could be bothered to vote want.
I have heard people complain and when asked sayâ€ I donâ€™t bother votingâ€ thatâ€™s how we ended up with this bunch of nomarks.

What amuses me most is the sheer arrogance on both sides.
What makes Corbyn think the EU will give him a good deal with no mechanism to walk away?
Boris has put all his eggs in one basket and MPs have trodden on them.
		
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If Boris can get his election then I don't think the last few days have damaged him. If anything it separates him from the other parties quite clearly. He will position the party as the only option if you want to leave. Vote Lab/Lib and the UK could be stuck in this situation for many years to come. He will make the election as the Conservatives being the saviours, 'if only the others were not blocking them'.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			We are discussing the PM, please explain how/why you or anyone believe that suddenly after nearly 3 years he can get a deal that his party failed to get.
Why should the rest of Parliament trust him, his own Party donâ€™t.
		
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He had a chance to get a better deal because he isnt a remainer in leavers clothes and is prepared to push the no deal button. Something the EU is very worried about.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			We are discussing the PM, please explain how/why you or anyone believe that suddenly after nearly 3 years he can get a deal that his party failed to get.
Why should the rest of Parliament trust him, his own Party donâ€™t.
		
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Because he actually wants to leave and May didnâ€™t. At least he could have done it until Parliament did his legs.


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## Beezerk (Sep 5, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If Boris can get his election then I don't think the last few days have damaged him. If anything it separates him from the other parties quite clearly. He will position the party as the only option if you want to leave. Vote Lab/Lib and the UK could be stuck in this situation for many years to come. He will make the election as the Conservatives being the saviours, 'if only the others were not blocking them'.
		
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His only problem I can see is walking the fine line of no deal just enough to hoover up Farages votes, but while not sounding too extreme for regular leavers who may not want no deal.
I don't think people are giving BJ enough credit, he surely must have had a long term plan before he took up office, it's just a matter of if it's still going as part his plan ðŸ¤£


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Because he actually wants to leave and May didnâ€™t. At least he could have done it until Parliament did his legs.
		
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We are risking it all on a bluff then?
What if the EU says, â€œOK Boris, weâ€™ll extend the deadline and renegotiateâ€
Do you want him to say no and crash us out? 
What are the risks of crashing out? Nobody knows and the price could be too high, personally prefer a deal.


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## JamesR (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He had a chance to get a better deal because he isnt a remainer in leavers clothes and is prepared to push the no deal button. *Something the EU is very worried about.*

Click to expand...

What exactly is it that the EU is worried about - why does us leaving with no deal worry them?


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t think it would give time Bri, heâ€™s playing games, Parliament want No Deal off the table, his actions since becoming PM have caused this. Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, etc, all singing from the 1 song sheet, either heâ€™s incredibly stupid or brilliant, my money ainâ€™t on brilliant.
		
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I disagree on the time issue. If the election was 13th Oct, 14 days before the Brexit date, why couldn't an incoming PM ask for a further extension? I'm fairly certain the EU would expect it, assuming the Tories didn't win, as they've been clear they don't want a No Deal Brexit.

For me, taking No Deal off the table hands a massive advantage to the EU. Would you go into a car dealership and say I'll definitely buy that car and then expect the best deal. The dealer knows you will accept second best because you're buying it regardless. Its just about as stupid as you can get.

As for Boris's do or die, why not? If the current deal is the best the EU has to offer, as they've said many times before, No Deal is better. We've already heard rumblings from France and Germany of a better offer. And the Irish are seriously setting looking to set up checks away from the border - see the Beeb's website. I'm inclined to think Boris's posturing is having the desired effect. 

But hey. let's cut his negotiating legs from under him.

Too many people are making their opinions based on personalities instead of the issues. Boris is a .. of the first water but at least he looked like the issue was moving forward.


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## IanM (Sep 5, 2019)

JamesR said:



			why does us leaving with no deal worry them?
		
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No divorce settlement,  The UK is their biggest EXPORT market so will be subject to whatever tariffs we impose on them.  etc

Head of German Central Bank gave very excellent appraisal of this recently, but you'll do well to find it!   You don't think media coverage is impartial do you?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			His only problem I can see is walking the fine line of no deal just enough to hoover up Farages votes, but while not sounding too extreme for regular leavers who may not want no deal.
I don't think people are giving BJ enough credit, he surely must have had a long term plan before he took up office, it's just a matter of if it's still going as part his plan ðŸ¤£
		
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Then if youâ€™re right about a long term plan it once again goes against his character, ie plotting behind his leaders back!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			We are risking it all on a bluff then?
What if the EU says, â€œOK Boris, weâ€™ll extend the deadline and renegotiateâ€
Do you want him to say no and crash us out?
What are the risks of crashing out? Nobody knows and the price could be too high, personally prefer a deal.
		
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But what kind of renegotiation would the EU carry out?  They hold all the cards and dont want us to leave and this situation has been created by those that voted for this current delaying bill that just keeps kicking the can down the road.


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

JamesR said:



			What exactly is it that the EU is worried about - why does us leaving with no deal worry them?
		
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If the EU aren't worried why are they looking to use the disaster fund to mitigate problems?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I disagree on the time issue. If the election was 13th Oct, 14 days before the Brexit date, why couldn't an incoming PM ask for a further extension? I'm fairly certain the EU would expect it, assuming the Tories didn't win, as they've been clear they don't want a No Deal Brexit.

For me, taking No Deal off the table hands a massive advantage to the EU. Would you go into a car dealership and say I'll definitely buy that car and then expect the best deal. The dealer knows you will accept second best because you're buying it regardless. Its just about as stupid as you can get.

As for Boris's do or die, why not? If the current deal is the best the EU has to offer, as they've said many times before, No Deal is better. We've already heard rumblings from France and Germany of a better offer. And the Irish are seriously setting looking to set up checks away from the border - see the Beeb's website. I'm inclined to think Boris's posturing is having the desired effect.

But hey. let's cut his negotiating legs from under him.

Too many people are making their opinions based on personalities instead of the issues. Boris is a .. of the first water but at least he looked like the issue was moving forward.
		
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What if no Party had a majority and we have a hung Parliament etc, your scenario only works if anyone gets a clear majority.

As for taking his legs, why not simply stop everything and tell us he is concentrating on getting the deal done, ie, recall from summer, no Queens Speech until mid Nov, itâ€™s ok saying we should give him a chance, but his record proves otherwise.
As I said previously, heâ€™s managed to do what no one else has managed and thatâ€™s unite the opposition.


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## IanM (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But what kind of renegotiation would the EU carry out?  They hold all the cards and dont want us to leave and this situation has been created by those that voted for this current delaying bill that just keeps kicking the can down the road.
		
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Nice of the folk in the HoC to vote for the EU rather than the UK..... warped


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## JamesR (Sep 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If the EU aren't worried why are they looking to use the disaster fund to mitigate problems?
		
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I don't know - that's why I'm asking!

What is the effect on them?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But what kind of renegotiation would the EU carry out?  They hold all the cards and dont want us to leave and this situation has been created by those that voted for this current delaying bill that just keeps kicking the can down the road.
		
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Then he should be demanding both him and the EU publicly come out and state they are renegotiating and until they do that, itâ€™s he said/she said.


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## JamesR (Sep 5, 2019)

IanM said:



			No divorce settlement,  The UK is their biggest EXPORT market so will be subject to whatever tariffs we impose on them.  etc

Head of German Central Bank gave very excellent appraisal of this recently, but you'll do well to find it!   You don't think media coverage is impartial do you?
		
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Who will get hit hardest by tariffs, us or them?

...and no, I don't think the media is impartial. They all serve their own particular master, be it Murdoch, Barclay Bros, Lebedev, Guardian etc, and their political/economic/social needs


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Then he should be demanding both him and the EU publicly come out and state they are renegotiating and until they do that, itâ€™s he said/she said.
		
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Boris has said time and time again he wants to negotiate. The EU have said time and time again they will not take the backstop off the table and the WA will not be reopened. They've said they'll listen, but then said there's nothing else to offer.

But in recent weeks, what have we heard from the French and Germans, and what was on the Beeb's site yesterday about Ireland? As brutal as Boris's stance is it appears to be working, or was until the Remain MP's chopped his legs off.




pauldj42 said:



			What if no Party had a majority and we have a hung Parliament etc, your scenario only works if anyone gets a clear majority.

As for taking his legs, why not simply stop everything and tell us he is concentrating on getting the deal done, ie, recall from summer, no Queens Speech until mid Nov, itâ€™s ok saying we should give him a chance, but his record proves otherwise.
As I said previously, heâ€™s managed to do what no one else has managed and thatâ€™s unite the opposition.
		
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So you're pre-judging?


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## IanM (Sep 5, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Who will get hit hardest by tariffs, us or them?
		
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According the the German Minister and based on current net exports them.  

All the reporting of this on BBC and Sky News infers otherwise and ignores the simple fact that the rest of the world "buys and sells stuff!"

And the Trade bit conveniently diverts talk away from where the EU is heading..... but of course I only want to leave as I am uneducated racist.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 5, 2019)

Best jokes of the day

Jo Swinson: 'I'm running to be the next Prime Minister'





@DavidLammy
 Â·
John Bercow is an inter-galactic hero. In this noisy world of moneyed oafs belching their jingoism, he brings style, civility, and Shakespearean rhyme. A true freestyler.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Boris has said time and time again he wants to negotiate. The EU have said time and time again they will not take the backstop off the table and the WA will not be reopened. They've said they'll listen, but then said there's nothing else to offer.

But in recent weeks, what have we heard from the French and Germans, and what was on the Beeb's site yesterday about Ireland? As brutal as Boris's stance is it appears to be working, or was until the Remain MP's chopped his legs off.




So you're pre-judging?
		
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Prejudging him, yes absolutely, his record is abysmal.
No faith in him whatsoever.

And as youâ€™ve put above â€œappears to be workingâ€ and we know how dangerous appearances can be.


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Prejudging him, yes absolutely, his record is abysmal.
No faith in him whatsoever.

And as youâ€™ve put above â€œappears to be workingâ€ and we know how dangerous appearances can be.
		
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Don't get me wrong, I don't trust him but I'll base my judgement on this issue on his performance in this issue. He could be the world's worst plumber but he might be the world's best electrician.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 5, 2019)

The only chance we had of getting a better deal, was to keep no deal on the table, 
That has been taken away, (For the moment)so now there is no chance of a better deal.

If a GE comes, it is going to be another Brexit referendum,  the Torys will have to promise to leave whatever, otherwise the Brexit party will split their vote, so the torys and brexit will form a pact
Lib dems are campaigning to stay whatever, so they will attract votes from labour and remaining torys
Labour at the moment dont have much of a strategy apart from delaying.

I forsee a tory majority with all the no deal legislation repealed swiftly and out deal or no deal


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## JamesR (Sep 5, 2019)

IanM said:



			According the the German Minister and based on current net exports them. 

All the reporting of this on BBC and Sky News infers otherwise and ignores the simple fact that the rest of the world "buys and sells stuff!"

And the Trade bit conveniently diverts talk away from where the EU is heading..... *but of course I only want to leave as I am uneducated racist.  *

Click to expand...

You know what they say, the first step to improvement is acknowledging your failings


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The only chance we had of getting a better deal, was to keep no deal on the table,
That has been taken away, (For the moment)so now there is no chance of a better deal.

If a GE comes, it is going to be another Brexit referendum,  the Torys will have to promise to leave whatever, otherwise the Brexit party will split their vote, so the torys and brexit will form a pact
Lib dems are campaigning to stay whatever, so they will attract votes from labour and remaining torys
Labour at the moment dont have much of a strategy apart from delaying.

I forsee a tory majority with all the no deal legislation repealed swiftly and out deal or no deal
		
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The LibDems campaigned on a Remain manifesto at the last GE. It'll be interesting to see how well they'll do.


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## User62651 (Sep 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			2nd referendum-peopleâ€™s vote.

Call a GE and let the people vote. Oh itâ€™s gone very quiet on that one this week.
		
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Think you're just fishing but I'll bite.

November GE is fine, why does it need to be in just 6 short weeks in October? - too quick. Leaves little time for souring candidates, manifestos, canvassing, hustings, debates etc etc.

I'm ok with opposition parties not dancing immediately to Johnson's tune on an October GE, why the rush Boris......hmmmm, something to do with Halloween perhaps? Let him stew in his own self made mess for a bit first, reflect a bit. 
Get an extension to Art50, secure the no to No Deal position legally first as that's what parliament want, fairly sensible condition of agreeing GE imo as I dont agree No Deal is a bargaining position at all - it's actually worse on us than it is on EU, which is not leverage. 
He may be PM but is now effectively in opposition because he's sacked off his own MPs. Self made situation (with Cummings steering).


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## Captainron (Sep 5, 2019)

616 pages of this latest installation on here after the previous thread was unceremoniously dumped and even we can't get an agreement amongst ourselves so what hope does any government have? 

Where is a military dictatorship when you need one?


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## adam6177 (Sep 5, 2019)

Captainron said:



			Where is a military dictatorship when you need one? 

Click to expand...

Not quite military, but you could argue that this last week has seen some dictatorial elements from our MPs.


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Think you're just fishing but I'll bite.

November GE is fine, why does it need to be in just 6 short weeks in October? - too quick. Leaves little time for souring candidates, manifestos, canvassing, hustings, debates etc etc.

I'm ok with opposition parties not dancing immediately to Johnson's tune on an October GE, why the rush Boris......hmmmm, something to do with Halloween perhaps? Let him stew in his own self made mess for a bit first, reflect a bit.
Get an extension to Art50, secure the no to No Deal position legally first as that's what parliament want, fairly sensible condition of agreeing GE imo as I dont agree No Deal is a bargaining position at all - it's actually worse on us than it is on EU, which is not leverage.
He may be PM but is now effectively in opposition because he's sacked off his own MPs. Self made situation (with Cummings steering).
		
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Actually, not fishing at all. If the UK or EU came out now and ask for an extension till Christmas to rerun the referendum or a GE, fine. At present there's a possibility that the EU will hit the 31st Oct and say, "sorry you're out." Its not just Boris who might enforce a No Deal.

My point was to get a GE before the EU could say you're out.

As for Cummings; how much of it is truth? And Olly Robbins, May's advisor was equally forceful and conniving, allegedly.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			We are risking it all on a bluff then?
What if the EU says, â€œOK Boris, weâ€™ll extend the deadline and renegotiateâ€
Do you want him to say no and crash us out? 
What are the risks of crashing out? Nobody knows and the price could be too high, personally prefer a deal.
		
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According to reports, no we werenâ€™t; elements of the EU were starting to bring pressure to bear for a new negotiated settlement. Thatâ€™s now been completely undone by the HoC. 

I donâ€™t particularly want to leave with no deal, Iâ€™d be happy to stay in a tweaked trading bloc (but not a Federal republic) but I believe that when dealing with the likes of the EU you have to keep all options on the table in order to make them believe that you are serious.


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			We are discussing the PM, please explain how/why you or anyone believe that suddenly after nearly 3 years he can get a deal that his party failed to get.
Why should the rest of Parliament trust him, his own Party donâ€™t.
		
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From his pov....He doesn't particularly want a deal! He simply wants to Leave! The deal can come later - or maybe 'much later'.

As for trusting him...Remember how he got to be PM!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Don't get me wrong, I don't trust him but I'll base my judgement on this issue on his performance in this issue. He could be the world's worst plumber but he might be the world's best electrician.
		
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Too risky for me Bri, He does his best, fails, we Leave 31st Oct with No Deal, all goes well, great, no harm done, not Borisâ€™s fault.
If No Deal is bad, what then? Just say to those suffering, never mind Boris tried.

I know people wonâ€™t agree on here and itâ€™s gone on too long, but if heâ€™d of turned round and said something along the lines of...â€I need to take stock, I need to review everything and I want the deadline moved to 31st March next year and then it will be new deal or no dealâ€

Everything right now seems bull in a china shop.


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## IanM (Sep 5, 2019)

Project Fear Phase 3.  Keep kicking the can down the road until we stay in.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			From his pov....He doesn't particularly want a deal! He simply wants to Leave! The deal can come later - or maybe 'much later'.

As for trusting him...Remember how he got to be PM!
		
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...by watching May collapse under the weight of her inadequacies?


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 5, 2019)

IanM said:



			Project Fear Phase 3.  Keep kicking the can down the road until we stay in.
		
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## User62651 (Sep 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			...by watching May collapse under the weight of her inadequacies?
		
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No, by sheer and utter BS based upon a scruffy schoolboy in jolly japes persona that too many bought into as somehow qualification to be PM. Never mind any real detail.

His red line of 31st October just copied exactly what May did with 29th March. Both put there in fear of losing votes to hard right UKIP then Brexit Party, neither of whom had/have any MPs to influence parliamentary voting. Crazy.


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			...by watching May collapse under the weight of her inadequacies?
		
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Then being the preferred candidate by Tory MPs in each round of voting!


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## Parsaregood (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Too risky for me Bri, He does his best, fails, we Leave 31st Oct with No Deal, all goes well, great, no harm done, not Borisâ€™s fault.
If No Deal is bad, what then? Just say to those suffering, never mind Boris tried.

I know people wonâ€™t agree on here and itâ€™s gone on too long, but if heâ€™d of turned round and said something along the lines of...â€I need to take stock, I need to review everything and I want the deadline moved to 31st March next year and then it will be new deal or no dealâ€

Everything right now seems bull in a china shop.
		
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Problem is the EU would have had to agree to an extension, if your credibly threatening to walk away after negotiating a new deal the EU would likely not have granted an extension based on the fact they have said no other deal is possible. The EU are the ones who have backed the UK into a corner. It's just a shame the last PM and her cabinet were trying to please the EU by going along with them and it's now common knowledge the ex-chancellor has been taking advice from EU lawyers! You couldn't make it up


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Problem is the EU would have had to agree to an extension, if your credibly threatening to walk away after negotiating a new deal the EU would likely not have granted an extension based on the fact they have said no other deal is possible. The EU are the ones who have backed the UK into a corner. It's just a shame the last PM and her cabinet were trying to please the EU by going along with them and it's now common knowledge the ex-chancellor has been taking advice from EU lawyers! You couldn't make it up
		
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Still too rushed for me and both are playing hardball, problem though is this Country is not ready for No Deal, itâ€™s ok making vote winning statements when those promises are for the future, itâ€™s the here and know for businessâ€™s and the man in the street that matters more.


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## Beezerk (Sep 5, 2019)

What did Mark Carney say yesterday? No deal wouldn't be as bad for the UK as first thought.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			What did Mark Carney say yesterday? No deal wouldn't be as bad for the UK as first thought.
		
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But still bad:

The Bank warned last November that a disorderly Brexit could wipe about 8% off GDP through a recession worse than the financial crisis, under its worst-case scenario for the impact of a no-deal Brexit.
However, Carney said the central bank now estimated GDP would decline by about 5.5% â€“ still a sizeable economic shock, but a less damaging one. Joblessness would rapidly increase, taking the unemployment rate to more than twice its current level, at about 7%. Inflation would also more than double to 5.5%.
In a letter to the Treasury committee, published on Wednesday, Carney said plans by governments and companies on both sides of the Channel had helped to lower the dangers to the economy.


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## Beezerk (Sep 5, 2019)

Has he and the economic forecasters been massively wrong before? 
I dont believe a lot they say just as much you dont believe BoJo ðŸ˜‰


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No, by sheer and utter BS based upon a scruffy schoolboy in jolly japes persona that too many bought into as somehow qualification to be PM. Never mind any real detail.

His red line of 31st October just copied exactly what May did with 29th March. Both put there in fear of losing votes to hard right UKIP then Brexit Party, neither of whom had/have any MPs to influence parliamentary voting. Crazy.
		
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Totally agree,  much better put than I could possibly do.
Red lines have been the downfall of this sorry shower
Done and died,.  ..

.


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## adam6177 (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But still bad:

The Bank warned last November that a disorderly Brexit could wipe about 8% off GDP through a recession worse than the financial crisis, under its worst-case scenario for the impact of a no-deal Brexit.
		
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The bank also made several other wild predictions of what would happen in the event of us voting to leave.... NONE of which came true.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			The bank also made several other wild predictions of what would happen in the event of us voting to leave.... NONE of which came true.
		
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Are you sure NONE came true? Maybe you should look again.
He certainly, like experts on both sides, got some predictions wrong but it still doesnâ€™t change my concerns over the impact of a No Deal.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2019)

The impact of No Deal would be bad, anyone claiming otherwise is deluded. How bad? Nobody knows.

The current paralysis is bad, it IS impacting even though we have not actually left yet.

The EU wont budge from their current stance whilst there is no pressure to do so, and there currently isn't. It pains me to say it but Boris pushing them to the wire, imo, is our best chance of getting enough of a tweak to the current deal to get it through the HoC. We are not looking for a root and branch change, it is margins. What happened last night must have had Barnier sitting back, smiling and pouring himself a large one. He doesn't have to do anything whilst the UK is currently imploding, there is no pressure on him or the EU. If you want to learn how not to negotiate then follow the UK from the very beginning of this process through to now. Schools will be studying this process in future years, a classic 'how not to'.

Great quote from the head of the local Labour party where Luciana Berger has swapped to the LibDems *"Berger now represents only 6% of Wavertree constituents - those who voted Lib Dem in the last election."* Ouch. When you see figures such as that it does tend to give weight to the call that if an MP switches party from the one they stood for at an election then they should be subject to a byelection. Hard to argue against that with those sorts of figures. In her case it is going to happen anyway shortly so the people of Wavertree will soon have their chance to decide whether to keep her or not. (I'm willing to bet a whole 50p she doesn't stand in Wavertree again)


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2019)

A dramatic demo of how Brexit (and BoJo) divides the country - and in this case Family!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49594793


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## adam6177 (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Are you sure NONE came true? Maybe you should look again.
He certainly, like experts on both sides, got some predictions wrong but it still doesnâ€™t change my concerns over the impact of a No Deal.
		
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I guess thats the flip of the coin - I like to envisage what a no deal can do for us in a positive way over coming decades, not be overly concerned by short term issues that will be overcome.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I guess thats the flip of the coin - I like to envisage what a no deal can do for us in a positive way over coming decades, not be overly concerned by short term issues that will be overcome.
		
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Iâ€™ve no doubt leaving the EU is best for us all in the long run. Itâ€™s the length of the short term thatâ€™s the biggest issue for me.


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## drdel (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Are you sure NONE came true? Maybe you should look again.
He certainly, like experts on both sides, got some predictions wrong but it still doesnâ€™t change my concerns over the impact of a No Deal.
		
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'Crashing out' and 'No deal' are artificial/emotional constructs. The UK would become a full member of the WTO as it was before becoming second class and represented by the EU: previously the EEC & CM. Numerous countries rely on the WTO structures and protocols and the UK can do so while it sorts out better 'deals' with other countries that could include the EU. The EU can't introduce penal conditions on the UK for two reason: firstly WTO doesn't allow it and secondly Germany and other desperately need trade to keep flowing because the EU's growth is a disaster.

If you want to do the sums the WTO rates are available - its the uncertainty that is costing time and money.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			A dramatic demo of how Brexit (and BoJo) divides the country - and in this case Family!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49594793

Click to expand...

Isn't the sister involved in the Change UK party, if it still exists? Splits in the family were already there.

It could be worse, they could be the Milliband family . Still awkward at family reunions there I suspect.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			'Crashing out' and 'No deal' are artificial/emotional constructs. The UK would become a full member of the WTO as it was before becoming second class and represented by the EU: previously the EEC & CM. Numerous countries rely on the WTO structures and protocols and the UK can do so while it sorts out better 'deals' with other countries that could include the EU. The EU can't introduce penal conditions on the UK for two reason: firstly WTO doesn't allow it and secondly Germany and other desperately need trade to keep flowing because the EU's growth is a disaster.

If you want to do the sums the WTO rates are available - its the uncertainty that is costing time and money.
		
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Iâ€™ve no doubt weâ€™d recover from a No Deal scenario, but listening and reading what the CBI and other businessâ€™s plus the Government itself are saying, we (as a Country) are not ready to leave on 31st Oct imo.


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## drdel (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve no doubt weâ€™d recover from a No Deal scenario, but listening and reading what the CBI and other businessâ€™s plus the Government itself are saying, we (as a Country) are not ready to leave on 31st Oct imo.
		
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IMO there has been considerable planning in many sectors but you might be right that some aren't prepared. 

What we seem to have forgotten is that the UK has legally declared we are leaving the EU. IMO we don't need to do a dam thing, 'Do Nothing' is always an option in negotiations and we can let the other side sweat because, if we plan, their members will need a future that involves the UK. PM Remainer May gave the EU the upper hand and allowed the UK to be talked down. Specifically by Barmier refusing to concurrently talk future trading arrangements and settlement. The UK should have stood firm and insisted it was not possible to split the future into two components. Art 50 even specifies the need for mutuality in the discussions.

Despite the pomp and self importance of small minded idiots like Bercow, Juncker, Corbyn, Johnson et al the EU and UK is a small sideshow in comparison to world security, business, finance, trade etc and there are very big businesses/organisation that drive the market forces and will adapt around this noise and, in all honesty, not one helluva lot will change. BMW, Mercedes will sell cars, BP Shell, HSBC etc will continue that's not to say that for some individuals there could be bad consequences but when change happens its always the small guys who are at the sharp end.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve no doubt weâ€™d recover from a No Deal scenario, but listening and reading what the CBI and other businessâ€™s plus the Government itself are saying, we (as a Country) are not ready to leave on 31st Oct imo.
		
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Carney at the BOE seems to think we are.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve no doubt weâ€™d recover from a No Deal scenario, but listening and reading what the CBI and other businessâ€™s plus the Government itself are saying, we (as a Country) are not ready to leave on 31st Oct imo.
		
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I don't know that we will ever be fully ready for a no deal exit. It is one of those. It is like being ready for your first child, should you have one, is the timing right, etc. You can do some preparations but ultimately there is an element of chaos theory and you have to roll with what happens. The massive issue is the ports. The govt needs to be piling all of its time and money into making sure they can cope. If they can keep the vehicles moving that will be massive, both practically and psychologically. If the ports become jammed then all sorts of problems will come from that. Keep them moving and some of the issues disappear.

The CBI doesn't want Brexit full stop, I can't blame them, but remember everything they say comes from that starting point. 

My business has done some preparation work but we can't do any more, we have done all that we can within our own limitations. We will have to adapt, it will hurt, but what adaptions we will have to make we can not forsee now until it actually happens. Delaying another 3 months isn't going to help us be any more ready. It might make Christmas a bit cheerier though


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But still bad:

The Bank warned last November that a disorderly Brexit could wipe about 8% off GDP through a recession worse than the financial crisis, under its worst-case scenario for the impact of a no-deal Brexit.
However, Carney said the central bank now estimated GDP would decline by about 5.5% â€“ still a sizeable economic shock, but a less damaging one. Joblessness would rapidly increase, taking the unemployment rate to more than twice its current level, at about 7%. Inflation would also more than double to 5.5%.
In a letter to the Treasury committee, published on Wednesday, Carney said plans by governments and companies on both sides of the Channel had helped to lower the dangers to the economy.
		
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He said that was their worst case and over 30 years.


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO there has been considerable planning in many sectors but you might be right that some aren't prepared.
...
		
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And it's highly likely, imo, that many of those wouldn't be prepared whatever the date!

And some might even have taken the conscious decision that it's best for them to 'do nothing (or very little) until it happens'!


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## spongebob59 (Sep 5, 2019)

Ok which one of you lot did this

*Soubry sent flowers for 'keeping up the fight'*
Leader of the Independent Group for Change tweets...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't know that we will ever be fully ready for a no deal exit. It is one of those. It is like being ready for your first child, should you have one, is the timing right, etc. You can do some preparations but ultimately there is an element of chaos theory and you have to roll with what happens. The massive issue is the ports. The govt needs to be piling all of its time and money into making sure they can cope. If they can keep the vehicles moving that will be massive, both practically and psychologically. If the ports become jammed then all sorts of problems will come from that. Keep them moving and some of the issues disappear.

The CBI doesn't want Brexit full stop, I can't blame them, but remember everything they say comes from that starting point.

My business has done some preparation work but we can't do any more, we have done all that we can within our own limitations. We will have to adapt, it will hurt, but what adaptions we will have to make we can not forsee now until it actually happens. Delaying another 3 months isn't going to help us be any more ready. It might make Christmas a bit cheerier though 

Click to expand...

Seriously, for how long though, how long until you may/would have to consider redundancies/reduced hours etc.

What about the sick or disabled, where is the guarantee medication will always be available.

I accept we/you/us would never be 100% ready, but expecting the EU to meet and agree changes mid Oct for a 31st Oct deadline is too risky.

Maybe if we hadnâ€™t had a change of PM and summer recess etc it may of been, but not the way things have been done.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Carney at the BOE seems to think we are.
		
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He's a _Remoaner _and not a word of his is to be trusted - his predictions are as good as yours or mine and he had been so very wrong in the past so how can we trust him.

I mean - how can we trust anyone who suggests now that (according to my Times today) things won't be so bad as previously feared (due to mitigation actions applied by EU, UK and others), and tell us that UK is _still likely to plunge into a severe recession but GDP would only contract by 5.5% rather than the 8% previously forecast by the Bank_.  How can you believe such as Carney.

Ah yes - you can when it suits...and believe the bits that suit.

Which bit of his current predictions am I to believe - especially as I was advised not to believe anything that he previously predicted.


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## IanM (Sep 5, 2019)

By jove they've got him!


_Its a pity the EU has a monopoly on pharmaceuticals and loo roll! _


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Carney at the BOE seems to think we are.
		
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From memory, you aren't much of a fan of his predictions. Not a criticism, just an observation!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He's a _Remoaner _and not a word of his is to be trusted - his predictions are as good as yours or mine and he had been so very wrong in the past so how can we trust him.

I mean - how can we trust anyone who suggests now that (according to my Times today) things won't be so bad as previously feared (due to mitigation actions applied by EU, UK and others), and tell us that UK is _still likely to plunge into a severe recession but GDP would only contract by 5.5% rather than the 8% previously forecast by the Bank_.  How can you believe such as Carney.

Ah yes - you can when it suits...and believe the bits that suit.

*Which bit of his current predictions am I to believe *- especially as I was advised not to believe anything that he previously predicted.
		
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Just do what you've done throughout this entire process. Believe everything negative and ignore anything that could be seen as positive. 

Or you could do what I, and I'm sure many others have done, and realise that there's no point worrying about it as there is nothing any of us can do to alter the outcome. It will be whatever it will be and however it turns out we'll all just have to make the best of it. No point worrying about things you can't change.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			From memory, you aren't much of a fan of his predictions. Not a criticism, just an observation! 

Click to expand...

I just dont like him, even if he says its not as bad as he first predicted hes probably still over egging it.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He's a _Remoaner _and not a word of his is to be trusted - his predictions are as good as yours or mine and he had been so very wrong in the past so how can we trust him.

I mean - how can we trust anyone who suggests now that (according to my Times today) things won't be so bad as previously feared (due to mitigation actions applied by EU, UK and others), and tell us that UK is _still likely to plunge into a severe recession but GDP would only contract by 5.5% rather than the 8% previously forecast by the Bank_.  How can you believe such as Carney.

Ah yes - you can when it suits...and believe the bits that suit.

Which bit of his current predictions am I to believe - especially as I was advised not to believe anything that he previously predicted.
		
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I repeated what he said, I didnt say I believed him.  He is a remainer and says anything to blacken leaving.  A bit like you actually.


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He's a _Remoaner _and not a word of his is to be trusted - his predictions are as good as yours or mine and he had been so very wrong in the past so how can we trust him...
		
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No! His predictions a better than 'yours or mine' because he has an entire chunk of his organisation doing modelling/analysis! That doesn't mean he's going to be right every time. And, of course the 'observer effect' applies to economics as well as physics!


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
I mean - how can we trust anyone who suggests now that (according to my Times today) things won't be so bad as previously feared (due to mitigation actions applied by EU, UK and others), and tell us that UK is _still likely to plunge into a severe recession but GDP would only contract by 5.5% rather than the 8% previously forecast by the Bank_.  How can you believe such as Carney.
		
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The fact that he's prepared to change shows, to me, that he's got a lot more integrity than politicians!


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
Which bit of his current predictions am I to believe - especially as I was advised not to believe anything that he previously predicted.
		
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All of it - while remembering that it's a prediction, not fact!


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...He is a remainer and says anything to blacken leaving...
		
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His view is purely focused on the economic view. And from an economic view, he's almost certainly correct to prefer Remain. But that's not what the main thrust of Leave was/is about!

I don't believe he 'says anything to blacken leaving'. It's just that 'everything he says blackens (or maybe 'darkens') leaving'!

Of course, should UK finally leave, it'll be his job to do his best to mitigate the negative effects! And I pretty certain he will do it to the best of his ability!


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously, for how long though, how long until you may/would have to consider redundancies/reduced hours etc.
*We have seen a downturn already and have reduced hours to keep everyone in their jobs still, each member of staff has lost a day per week apiece. Next step would be redundancy for a member of staff. There is no fixed date for that, we react to the numbers and try to make educated guesses based on what our customers are telling us and their order patterns. We would try not to make redundancies at this point as things may settle down if a deal is achieved. A no deal is bad and a delay prolongs the uncertainty, encouraging customers in Europe to find EU based suppliers. Business hates uncertainty.*

What about the sick or disabled, where is the guarantee medication will always be available.
*Why would it not be available? This is a fear story for me. The NHS will still need medicine, pharma companies still want to sell it. There may be some delays at ports but a lorry full of pills sitting at Calais for an extra 2 days is not going to mean medication will nto be available in the UK. Goods are still going to move in and out of the UK. They may have a slightly longer delivery time, so the buyers will need to order a little earlier, and they may cost a little more to the NHS but they will still come in. This is a non story to scare people.*

I accept we/you/us would never be 100% ready, but expecting the EU to meet and agree changes mid Oct for a 31st Oct deadline is too risky.
*If we have an agreement, solve the Irish border and I think we have one, then we go into a 2 year transition period where nothing changes. The details for the future get ironed out during this period. A deal suits everyone which is why the threat of no deal is such a strong one*

Maybe if we hadnâ€™t had a change of PM and summer recess etc it may of been, but not the way things have been done
*TM was part of the problem and had to go. She kept kicking the can down the road, as have successive PM's. Boris, in his clumsy way, has actually faced up to something that others have not had the bottle to do. Conservative splits have been papered over for years as PM have ignored making real decisions. He has said no more. Buffoon he may be but he may actually bring this saga to an end.*
*The summer recess plus party conferences don't help but they could have been cancelled. Saying that, would anything have changed? We have seen again that parliament is deadlocked. We need an election to unlock parliament. Getting close to a deadline without a deal is always scary but it is how the EU often seems to work. If we delay again then to what purpose? An election yes, but other than that what would change that warrants an extension? Do you see any MP's changing their minds?*
.
		
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It is a scary old time and frankly if it was all called off it would suit me perfectly.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 5, 2019)

Aside from backstabber Hammond how many other cabinet members have been colluding with Brussels... Guessing we'll never know...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 5, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is a scary old time and frankly if it was all called off it would suit me perfectly.
		
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Sad to hear of peopleâ€™s livelihoods already being affected.

It maybe a non-scare story for yourself, but everyone is different and the messages come from local pharmacists both in shops and hospitals near me are not as relaxed.

We only go into a prepared transition period with a deal.

So if they knew she was part of the problem why did the tories keep supporting her and giving her their backing? Was it because they were putting their best interests before the Country


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## Papas1982 (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sad to hear of peopleâ€™s livelihoods already being affected.

It maybe a non-scare story for yourself, but everyone is different and the messages come from local pharmacists both in shops and hospitals near me are not as relaxed.

We only go into a prepared transition period with a deal.

*So if they knew she was part of the problem why did the tories keep supporting her and giving her their backing? Was it because they were putting their best interests before the Country*

Click to expand...

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. 

Imo long gone are the days when most of em consider anything but this......


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sad to hear of peopleâ€™s livelihoods already being affected.

It maybe a non-scare story for yourself, but everyone is different and the messages come from local pharmacists both in shops and hospitals near me are not as relaxed.

We only go into a prepared transition period with a deal.

So if they knew she was part of the problem why did the tories keep supporting her and giving her their backing? Was it because they were putting their best interests before the Country

Click to expand...

I may be missing something but I don't understand why medicine would be an issue? Why are they different? Order earlier than normal to allow for slight delays and hold ups, stockpile before the leave date. That is what we will be doing, it is what every company I have talked to did before March 31st and will do again when the next deadline comes. If someone knows the answer I am happy to be educated. I've mentioned this in a reply to SiLH on this issue, if you import fresh produce delays are major, if you work on a JIT production line delays are major, if you buy an inert product then a few extra days can be factored in and dealt with.

Regarding your last point, no idea other than protecting their own hides as you mention. There was no logical reason to keep her in place, it was so obvious she had to go.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sad to hear of peopleâ€™s livelihoods already being affected.

It maybe a non-scare story for yourself, but everyone is different and the messages come from local pharmacists both in shops and hospitals near me are not as relaxed.

We only go into a prepared transition period with a deal.

So if they knew she was part of the problem why did the tories keep supporting her and giving her their backing? Was it because they were putting their best interests before the Country

Click to expand...

I think she won a vote of no confidence and could not be removed for a set time after that.!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 5, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If Boris can get his election then I don't think the last few days have damaged him. If anything it separates him from the other parties quite clearly. He will position the party as the only option if you want to leave. Vote Lab/Lib and the UK could be stuck in this situation for many years to come. He will make the election as the Conservatives being the saviours, 'if only the others were not blocking them'.
		
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Maybe but for some labour voters who want to leave voting conservative is a step to far .
If he sorts that out no problem but I think most would not vote at all.
Thatâ€™s why I think the Brexit party should still field a candidate against the Toryâ€™s everywhere and not stand aside like the greens did for the Lib Demâ€™s.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 5, 2019)

The Brexit party could have quite a role in this. I know they have a tentative agreement not to stand in certain Tory seats, does it work the other way round? In labour, leave seats they may win if the Tories stand aside.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously, for how long though, how long until you may/would have to consider redundancies/reduced hours etc.

What about the sick or disabled, where is the guarantee medication will always be available.

I accept we/you/us would never be 100% ready, but expecting the EU to meet and agree changes mid Oct for a 31st Oct deadline is too risky.

Maybe if we hadnâ€™t had a change of PM and summer recess etc it may of been, but not the way things have been done.
		
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Why do you think medicines will not get through UK border controls coming into the UK, it would be our own people stopping them, just like loo rolls and lettuces etc. Maybe someone who is concerned about this can explain how it will become a problem?   Also we export lots of medicines to the EU, are they concerned about it?


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you think medicines will not get through UK border controls coming into the UK, it would be our own people stopping them, just like loo rolls and lettuces etc. Maybe someone who is concerned about this can explain how it will become a problem?   Also we export lots of medicines to the EU, are they concerned about it?
		
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Seriously... You spend what seems to be your life relentlessly passing  comment on brexit , yet are oblivious to the problems a hard brexit would bring?
Staggering.


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve no doubt weâ€™d recover from a No Deal scenario, but listening and reading what the CBI and other businessâ€™s plus the Government itself are saying, we (as a Country) are not ready to leave on 31st Oct imo.
		
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But if you read what Mark Carney, the Gov of the Bank of England, has said today it certainly fill me with more confidence. CBI have a vested interest, as does the Gov, but the BoE is a lot more impartial - note, I didn't say impartial.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 5, 2019)

Shes deluded


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169619688856457218


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I may be missing something but I don't understand why medicine would be an issue? Why are they different? Order earlier than normal to allow for slight delays and hold ups, stockpile before the leave date. That is what we will be doing, it is what every company I have talked to did before March 31st and will do again when the next deadline comes. If someone knows the answer I am happy to be educated. I've mentioned this in a reply to SiLH on this issue, if you import fresh produce delays are major, if you work on a JIT production line delays are major, if you buy an inert product then a few extra days can be factored in and dealt with.

Regarding your last point, no idea other than protecting their own hides as you mention. There was no logical reason to keep her in place, it was so obvious she had to go.
		
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Absolutely spot on!!

Lets assume there's a projected 3 day delay. So the NHS orders an extra 3 days supply. That's it! That's all of it, full stop!! Your first delivery, which is 3 days late arrives on day 4. The delivery that was due to arrive on day 2 now arrives on day 5. And the delivery that was due to arrive on day 3 arrives on day 6. Extrapolate that out and what do you get? You get a delivery every day from day 4.

Then add in the mitigation the gov puts in place to fast track.

Stop it you fool!! We need everyone to panic about medicines not arriving for months, and bodies piling up in the streets!!

Seriously, get a flippin' grip guys! Its that flippin' simple.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Seriously... You spend what seems to be your life relentlessly passing  comment on brexit , yet are oblivious to the problems a hard brexit would bring?
Staggering.
		
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I take it from your normal ignorant response you have no answer to my question so you are reverting to your normal knuckle dragging twaddle


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Absolutely spot on!!

Lets assume there's a projected 3 day delay. So the NHS orders and extra 3 days supply. That's it! That's all of it, full stop!! Your first delivery, which is 3 days late arrives on day 4. The delivery that was due to arrive on day 2 now arrives on day 5. And the delivery that was due to arrive on day 3 arrives on day 6. Extrapolate that out and what do you get? You get a delivery every day from day 4.

Then add in the mitigation the gov puts in place to fast track.

Stop it you fool!! We need everyone to panic about medicines not arriving for months, and bodies piling up in the streets!!

Seriously, get a flippin' grip guys! Its that flippin' simple.
		
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 How does that work with isotopes which, I am told  have a 36 hour lifespan.


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I take it from your normal ignorant response you have no answer to my question so you are reverting to your normal knuckle dragging twaddle 

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And surprise surprise... an insult.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How does that work with isotopes which, I am told  have a 36 hour lifespan.
		
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Wouldn't time critical things like that already be arriving by air as a much faster delivery system? I don't know for sure but it seems as though that would be much more sensible than putting them in a lorry and risking delays on the roads.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How does that work with isotopes which, I am told  have a 36 hour lifespan.
		
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Struth    Once again, do you think for one minute UK customs will hold them up, they will have been pre-cleared.  

Are you sure they have a 36 hour lifespan, what has happened before when there are strikes in France stopping freight movement.  Were people not getting them.


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## drdel (Sep 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Absolutely spot on!!

Lets assume there's a projected 3 day delay. So the NHS orders an extra 3 days supply. That's it! That's all of it, full stop!! Your first delivery, which is 3 days late arrives on day 4. The delivery that was due to arrive on day 2 now arrives on day 5. And the delivery that was due to arrive on day 3 arrives on day 6. Extrapolate that out and what do you get? You get a delivery every day from day 4.

Then add in the mitigation the gov puts in place to fast track.

Stop it you fool!! We need everyone to panic about medicines not arriving for months, and bodies piling up in the streets!!

Seriously, get a flippin' grip guys! Its that flippin' simple.
		
Click to expand...

A few of us with international logistics and JIT  experience have been saying this since 2016 but I'm afraid a few have their heads so far up where the Sun doesn't shine they don't see or hear and don't want to.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you think medicines will not get through UK border controls coming into the UK, it would be our own people stopping them, just like loo rolls and lettuces etc. Maybe someone who is concerned about this can explain how it will become a problem?   Also we export lots of medicines to the EU, are they concerned about it?
		
Click to expand...

Imports won't be stopped at all. Everything will be cleared on a post arrival procedure.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Seriously... You spend what seems to be your life relentlessly passing  comment on brexit , yet are oblivious to the problems a hard brexit would bring?
Staggering.
		
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As far as the import of goods are concerned. It won't stop it at all. 

Not in the short term. Procedures have been set in plcase so that goods will come straight through the ports and be cleared on receipt of delivery.


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wouldn't time critical things like that already be arriving by air as a much faster delivery system? I don't know for sure but it seems as though that would be much more sensible than putting them in a lorry and risking delays on the roads.
		
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drdel said:



			A few of us with international logistics and JIT  experience have been saying this since 2016 but I'm afraid a few have their heads so far up where the Sun doesn't shine they don't see or hear and don't want to.
		
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Medicines already form part of the mitigation planning and there is already assigned air freight routes designated to get the essential/timed medicines into the UK.

As you say, its already sorted but someone people don't want to hear that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No! His predictions a better than 'yours or mine' because he has an entire chunk of his organisation doing modelling/analysis! That doesn't mean he's going to be right every time. And, of course the 'observer effect' applies to economics as well as physics!

The fact that he's prepared to change shows, to me, that he's got a lot more integrity than politicians!

All of it - while remembering that it's a prediction, not fact!
		
Click to expand...

I agree.


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How does that work with isotopes which, I am told  have a 36 hour lifespan.
		
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It won't matter, the brexit boat has sailed. Mog and bojo saw to that when they put their own aspirations ahead of the country by failing to support May.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2019)

Nice to see that big huge divide between the two parties is starting shrink and can see how we as a country are going to be united for the times ahead good or bad ðŸ™„

Not sure which side is worse at the moment when it comes to the cheap insults , sly digs , derogatory comments - I guess when they see the so called mature adult politicians doing it it then becomes open season 

I really do despair for our future - not because of staying or leaving the EU with a deal or no deal but because of the politicians we have supposedly â€œlookingâ€ after our nation , itâ€™s people and our best interests as a whole and not just the 48% who voted or the 52% who voted but then I suspect a good percentage of both sides think everything must be done to please them regardless of what others in the nation thinks.

Do people really have confidence in our politicians to do whatâ€™s best ? Asked a few times and donâ€™t think anyone does


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## Fade and Die (Sep 5, 2019)

Just to settle the nerves of the  remainers who think if we no deal we will starve, queue, sicken, go bankrupt and die...there is some clever bugger running a â€œBrexit Survival Courseâ€? 299 notes for a weekend learning about starting fires with a piece of flint, building a bivvy with branches and leaves, catching rabbits with a reel of cotton and drinking from puddles. He can also bung you a â€œsurvival kitâ€ for another 200 of your rapidly worthless drinking vouchers! Fill ya boots...

https://www.wild-survivor.co.uk/product/2-day-ultimate-brexit-survival-course/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...line-up-to-learn-survivalist-skills-87msm2hwm


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			And surprise surprise... an insult.
		
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Touche


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Seriously... You spend what seems to be your life relentlessly passing  comment on brexit , yet are oblivious to the problems a hard brexit would bring?
Staggering.
		
Click to expand...

And surprise, you reply to my post with this insult then accuse me. Staggering.


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And surprise, you reply to my post with this insult then accuse me. Staggering.
		
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What's insulting about that? It's a fair assessment.
Mate, take a look about ,anytime any one pushes you , all you do is become insulting. If you want I'll repost some examples from other forumers


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What's insulting about that? It's a fair assessment.
Mate, take a look about ,anytime any one pushes you , all you do is become insulting. If you want I'll repost some examples from other forumers
		
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Just grow up. You seem set on creating animosity and provication, give it a rest.


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Just grow up. You seem set on creating animosity and provication, give it a rest.
		
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Oof, now ain't that the kettle or pot or something 
ðŸ˜‚


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## SocketRocket (Sep 5, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof, now ain't that the kettle or pot or something
ðŸ˜‚
		
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Pathetic.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 5, 2019)

ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸


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## JamesR (Sep 5, 2019)

Iâ€™ll throw an insult into the mix if you like...youâ€™re both acting like a pair of (Mod edit)


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Iâ€™ll throw an insult into the mix if you like...youâ€™re both acting like a pair of (Mod Edit)
		
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I think its hilarious that the stirrer thinks its pot calling kettle. In effect, he admits he's as bad as the person he's calling out...


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think its hilarious that the stirrer thinks its pot calling kettle. In effect, he admits he's as bad as the person he's calling out...
		
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I think you need to know your memes ðŸ˜‰


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## robinthehood (Sep 5, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Iâ€™ll throw an insult into the mix if you like...youâ€™re both acting like a pair of (Mod Edit)
		
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Yeah come on the pair of you.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 5, 2019)

How about I just lock this thread until you have all had a chance to settle down and bloody grow up


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 6, 2019)

Unlocked
But please post nicely or it will be permanently binned along with those that are the cause


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## spongebob59 (Sep 6, 2019)

Can we bin the MP's please


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## Foxholer (Sep 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Can we bin the MP's please 

Click to expand...


Won't that generate the need for an election though?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 6, 2019)

In a statement, Chuka has said:
â€œIâ€™m delighted to have been appointed as the @LibDems candidate for the Cities of London & Westminster. I relish the prospect of ensuring the constituency â€“ which is a global symbol for open, liberal valuesâ€“ is represented by a party and an MP who will be true to those values.â€​So isn't he the Change/Independant group/Lib Dum Mp for Streatham ???


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## spongebob59 (Sep 6, 2019)

Why do we always call it 'Scottish independence' from the UK, but 'British Exit' from the EU? We never hear 'British independence' from the EU or 'Scottish exit' from the UK. Surely broadcasters should have some consistency on this?


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## Old Skier (Sep 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			In a statement, Chuka has said:
â€œIâ€™m delighted to have been appointed as the @LibDems candidate for the Cities of London & Westminster. I relish the prospect of ensuring the constituency â€“ which is a global symbol for open, liberal valuesâ€“ is represented by a party and an MP who will be true to those values.â€​So isn't he the Change/Independant group/Lib Dum Mp for Streatham ???
		
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He knows he'd lose so his ran away


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## spongebob59 (Sep 6, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			He knows he'd lose so his ran away
		
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 So who's the Streatham MP now ??


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## Old Skier (Sep 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So who's the Streatham MP now ??
		
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He is, it's was referring to where he will stand at the next election.


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## User62651 (Sep 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			In a statement, Chuka has said:
â€œIâ€™m delighted to have been appointed as the @LibDems candidate for the Cities of London & Westminster. I relish the prospect of ensuring the constituency â€“ which is a global symbol for open, liberal valuesâ€“ is represented by a party and an MP who will be true to those values.â€​So isn't he the Change/Independant group/Lib Dum Mp for Streatham ???
		
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He left Corbyn's Labour, think most people could understand that. He's Streatham's MP until next GE.

Streatham was 69% Labour and 7% Lib Dem last GE. Think you can see why they're having to find him a different seat to contest.

He does seem like a bit of political mercenary but these are strange times. 
Recall he had a chance to stand for Labour leadership last time after Milliband went, made noises about it but bottled it, missed his window probably as Labour probably wont want him back even if they go more centrist after Corbyn's done.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 6, 2019)

I would not be overly impressed if he was my MP and announced he was leaving before the next GE has even be called, Maybe he should do the honorable thing and stand down..... or do his current MP job for free


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Why do we always call it 'Scottish independence' from the UK, but 'British Exit' from the EU? We never hear 'British independence' from the EU or* 'Scottish exit' from the UK*. Surely broadcasters should have some consistency on this?
		
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From now on it should always be referred to as a ScotchEggsxit?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 6, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			From now on it should always be referred to as a ScotchEggsxit? 

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Something like that


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:




Won't that generate the need for an election though?
		
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Jeremy and Emily said you canâ€™t have one!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I would not be overly impressed if he was my MP and announced he was leaving before the next GE has even be called, Maybe he should do the honorable thing and stand down..... or do his current MP job for free 

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The person who came second in the election behind Chukka should be installed as the Streathem M.P. until a by election can be arranged.
He clearly dosnt want to be a Labour MP so should forfeit his position.


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## Foxholer (Sep 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			In a statement, Chuka has said:
â€œIâ€™m delighted to have been appointed as the @LibDems candidate for the Cities of London & Westminster. I relish the prospect of ensuring the constituency â€“ which is a global symbol for open, liberal valuesâ€“ is represented by a party and an MP who will be true to those values.â€​So isn't he the Change/Independant group/Lib Dum Mp for Streatham ???
		
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Currently he IS the MP for Streatham. But having left Tories Labour, he won't be selected as a Tory Labour candidate next election, so will be out of a job! He'll still be out of a job, just as a defeated candidate, anyway imo!


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## spongebob59 (Sep 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Currently he IS the MP for Streatham. But having left Tories, he won't be selected as a Tory candidate next election, so will be out of a job! He'll still be out of a job, just as a defeated candidate, anyway imo!
		
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 Labour


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## Fade and Die (Sep 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Currently he IS the MP for Streatham. But having left Tories, he won't be selected as a Tory candidate next election, so will be out of a job! He'll still be out of a job, just as a defeated candidate, anyway imo!
		
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MPs should not be allowed to jump ship to another party without the consequence of automatically triggering a by-election. The constituents voted you in because you represented the party that they wanted. If you then decide that you want to represent another party the constituents have in fact elected a totally different party. They should be Cup tied of sorts, only able to represent one club per election.


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## woody69 (Sep 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			MPs should not be allowed to jump ship to another party without the consequence of automatically triggering a by-election. The constituents voted you in because you represented the party that they wanted. If you then decide that you want to represent another party the constituents have in fact elected a totally different party. They should be Cup tied of sorts, only able to represent one club per election.
		
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That's not how democracy works in our country. We have representative parliamentary democracy


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## Foxholer (Sep 6, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Labour
		
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Doh!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Currently he IS the MP for Streatham. But having left Tories, he won't be selected as a Tory candidate next election, so will be out of a job! He'll still be out of a job, just as a defeated candidate, anyway imo!
		
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Jo Swinson will have a fight on her hands in East Dunbartonshire...

...and though my MP Jeremy Hunt should be safe I think that he could see his majority slashed...that is if the National Health Party stand aside for LibDems


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## Foxholer (Sep 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jo Swinson will have a fight on her hands in East Dunbartonshire...

...and though my MP Jeremy Hunt should be safe I think that he could see his majority slashed...that is if the National Health Party stand aside for LibDems
		
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I'm pretty certain there will be a lot of changes come the election - either through selection process (by either main party) or by voters! Swingometer could be all over the place!


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## Old Skier (Sep 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Currently he IS the MP for Streatham. But having left Tories Labour, he won't be selected as a Tory Labour candidate next election, so will be out of a job! He'll still be out of a job, just as a defeated candidate, anyway imo!
		
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The Momentum view, who'd have thought.


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## funkycoldmedina (Sep 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jo Swinson will have a fight on her hands in East Dunbartonshire...

...and though my MP Jeremy Hunt should be safe I think that he could see his majority slashed...that is if the National Health Party stand aside for LibDems
		
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I think Jo Swinson will get back in round here, she's considered to be an excellent constituency MP.


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## Foxholer (Sep 6, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The Momentum view, who'd have thought.
		
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What are you suggesting in that post?

I'm simply stating *the reality of how political parties react* when one (or in this case several) of their MPs leave 'The Party'!

FWIW, I detest the Momentum pressure group! So if you are trying to 'pidgeon-hole' me, you've got it seriously wrong!

So your post seems simply daftly, and unwarrantedly, antagonistic. Kindly desist!


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## Fade and Die (Sep 6, 2019)

woody69 said:



			That's not how democracy works in our country. We have representative parliamentary democracy
		
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And we would still have representative parliamentary democracy even with the â€œcup tiedâ€ rule.

The key word is representative, they represent us but they also represent a certain party. You are elected as a representative of that party... Leave said party you trigger a by-election as you are no longer the representative of the party under which you was elected.


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## Old Skier (Sep 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			What are you suggesting in that post?

I'm simply stating *the reality of how political parties react* when one (or in this case several) of their MPs leave 'The Party'!

FWIW, I detest the Momentum pressure group! So if you are trying to 'pidgeon-hole' me, you've got it seriously wrong!

So your post seems simply daftly, and unwarrantedly, antagonistic. Kindly desist![/
		
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As daft as your suggestion that the man was a Tory. I have no idea of your politics so how can I pigeon hole you. It just so happens that your post about the chap are very similar to tweets that, in the past were posted by the Momentum group.


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## Foxholer (Sep 6, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			...It just so happens that your post about the chap are very similar to tweets that, in the past were posted by the Momentum group.
		
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Just because we (may) have the same view of *the likely consequences* of (certain) events, doesn't mean we have the same views!

And I won't ask why you were reading tweets by The Momentum group!


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## Old Skier (Sep 6, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Just because we (may) have the same view of *the likely consequences* of (certain) events, doesn't mean we have the same views!

And I won't ask why you were reading tweets by The Momentum group! 

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Because I have an interest in politics and like to read the propaganda of Marxists and their supporters.


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## Backache (Sep 6, 2019)

Best option would probably be a division of UK .
London and Scotland to join Europe, NI to unite with Ireland . North and Midlands to form England and rest of England & Wales to vote as to whether they want to join Scotand & London or North and Midlands.


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## woody69 (Sep 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			And we would still have representative parliamentary democracy even with the â€œcup tiedâ€ rule.

The key word is representative, they represent us but they also represent a certain party. You are elected as a representative of that party... Leave said party you trigger a by-election as you are no longer the representative of the party under which you was elected.
		
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As stated by Winston Churchill; The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organisation or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy.' _Sir Winston Churchill on the Duties of a Member of Parliament_ 

So MPs have every right to switch their party allegiance if they feel in their judgement that the "honour and safety" of Great Britain is at risk first based on their own judgement i.e. not their constituents. If the constituents disagree with what they are doing, they will obviously vote them out at the next election.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 6, 2019)

woody69 said:



			As stated by Winston Churchill; The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organisation or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy.' _Sir Winston Churchill on the Duties of a Member of Parliament_

So MPs have every right to switch their party allegiance if they feel in their judgement that the "honour and safety" of Great Britain is at risk first based on their own judgement i.e. not their constituents. If the constituents disagree with what they are doing, they will obviously vote them out at the next election.
		
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Are you sugesting that if in their representative mode they ask the voting population to make a decision for them they should then work in any political way possible to overturn that decision.  Really?


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## woody69 (Sep 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you sugesting that if in their representative mode they ask the voting population to make a decision for them they should then work in any political way possible to overturn that decision.  Really?
		
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No, I'm explaining Representative Democracy. 
The point is that we vote for our local MP who then represents our interests in Parliament based on their judgement. The reason is that MP's are far more clued up on the affairs of state than the average 'bloke down the pub'. What some people are proposing is a direct democracy, which is the MP taking orders from their constituents. This is something entirely different.

You might not like that, particularly if it doesn't align with your views, but that's the way it is.


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## Beezerk (Sep 7, 2019)

woody69 said:



			No, I'm explaining Representative Democracy.
The point is that we vote for our local MP who then represents our interests in Parliament based on their judgement. The reason is that MP's are far more clued up on the affairs of state than the average 'bloke down the pub'. What some people are proposing is a direct democracy, which is the MP taking orders from their constituents. This is something entirely different.

You might not like that, particularly if it doesn't align with your views, but that's the way it is.
		
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But surely by giving us a referendum and saying they will enact the result, they have indeed made it a direct democracy in this case?
It seems to me the remain voting people are just using every excuse in the book to try and overturn the result they lost.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Why do we always call it 'Scottish independence' from the UK, but 'British Exit' from the EU? We never hear 'British independence' from the EU or 'Scottish exit' from the UK. Surely broadcasters should have some consistency on this?
		
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Because it  is not British it is English 
I also wish that the Tories would call themselves The English National Party because that is what this right wing group have morphed into.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Because it  is not British it is English
I also wish that the Tories would call themselves The English National Party because that is what this right wing group have morphed into.
		
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Wrong. It is just because, at this moment in time, voters north of the border decided to use the free choice not to vote for the Tories. No one in 'England' denied them the right to do so if they wished


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 7, 2019)

woody69 said:



			No, I'm explaining Representative Democracy.
The point is that we vote for our local MP who then represents our interests in Parliament based on their judgement. The reason is that MP's are far more clued up on the affairs of state than the average 'bloke down the pub'. What some people are proposing is a direct democracy, which is the MP taking orders from their constituents. This is something entirely different.

You might not like that, particularly if it doesn't align with your views, but that's the way it is.
		
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I would say a lot of blokes in the pub would do a better job as M.P. than this third rate bunch we have now.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 7, 2019)

I'm still waiting for remoaners to explain why a trading bloc requires a flag, an army, a president, an anthem, & insists on member states resigning their sovereignty?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 7, 2019)

Labour leaflets landing through letterboxes  !


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## robinthehood (Sep 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I'm still waiting for remoaners to explain why a trading bloc requires a flag, an army, a president, an anthem, & insists on member states resigning their sovereignty?
		
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It's not just a trading bloc,  doesn't pretend to be just a trading bloc. It's the likes of Boris ,who over the years have portrayed(told lies) it as some evil unelected empire that slowly trying to take over the UK, that have planted this seed of distrust in it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			Wrong. It is just because, at this moment in time, voters north of the border decided to use the free choice not to vote for the Tories. No one in 'England' denied them the right to do so if they wished
		
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No but I would like to think that very few Scots would vote for a political party that appears to be following Trump's vile agenda.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2019)

woody69 said:



			No, I'm explaining Representative Democracy.
The point is that we vote for our local MP who then represents our interests in Parliament based on their judgement. The reason is that MP's are far more clued up on the affairs of state than the average 'bloke down the pub'. What some people are proposing is a direct democracy, which is the MP taking orders from their constituents. This is something entirely different.

You might not like that, particularly if it doesn't align with your views, but that's the way it is.
		
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You never responded to my point.  Please clarify that because they are representative its ok for them to ask the voting public to make the decision on a particular issue then work actively against that decision.

You think all MPs are more clued up.  Really!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No but I would like to think that very few Scots would vote for a political party that appears to be following Trump's vile agenda.
		
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A better reply than that would be helpful.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You never responded to my point.  Please clarify that because they are representative its ok for them to ask the voting public to make the decision on a particular issue then work actively against that decision.

You think all MPs are more clued up.  Really!







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Itâ€™s not often I agree with you about our MPâ€™s


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s not often I agree with you about our MPâ€™s







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Glad you agree.  One thing Brexit has done is expose how appalling so many of them are.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No but I would like to think that very few Scots would vote for a political party that appears to be following Trump's vile agenda.
		
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Trump has nowt to do with the statement you made that I challenged. He has brought Scotland cash and jobs!


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## Dando (Sep 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			Trump has nowt to do with the statement you made that I challenged. He has brought Scotland cash and jobs!
		
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Stop talking sense and stating facts


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## woody69 (Sep 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You never responded to my point.  Please clarify that because they are representative its ok for them to ask the voting public to make the decision on a particular issue then work actively against that decision.

You think all MPs are more clued up.  Really!







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This is due to the complexity of the UK leaving the EU. As I have said a few times before, if the ERG / DUP had voted for the WA we would already be out. Yeah, it wasn't particularly favourable and there were a lot of negatives to what was agreed, but ultimately it delivered BREXIT from a legal standpoint. We are now further down the road with WTO terms and no transition period being a reality due to that being the default position unless extensions are agreed and therefore a large number of MPs are stepping in and saying the short to medium term damage that a "no deal" scenario is likely to create is not something that they are willing to accept. As Winston Churchill said, "The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain". You might not agree with their judgement, but that is why they are doing it.

I'm also not sure I ever said ALL MPs are clued up. Like in any profession you will have good representatives and bad representatives, but on the whole they "should" have a better understanding of the various affairs of state than your average Joe and be involved in discussions and be privvy to information that we are not. This is a problem though as there are a number of MPs that still don't really understand all of the complexities and they over-simplify extremely complex issues, usually with a soundbite in order to garner support as they look to progress their career, rather than make unpopular decisions for the greater good.


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## gmc40 (Sep 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Glad you agree.  One thing Brexit has done is expose how appalling so many of them are.
		
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I donâ€™t think Brexit was needed to show how appalling Boris is. That was apparent a long time ago.


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## woody69 (Sep 7, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			But surely by giving us a referendum and saying they will enact the result, they have indeed made it a direct democracy in this case?
It seems to me the remain voting people are just using every excuse in the book to try and overturn the result they lost.
		
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Setting aside the argument that the referendum was advisory again the issue with "leave" is there isn't a simple and binary solution. There are many different versions of "leave". The problem is agreeing what the right version for Britain is. The majority of MPs accept the result and want to deliver BREXIT, but they are unable to agree on how to deliver it and that is why we are where we are.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Setting aside the argument that the referendum was advisory again the issue with "leave" is there isn't a simple and binary solution. There are many different versions of "leave". The problem is agreeing what the right version for Britain is. The majority of MPs accept the result and want to deliver BREXIT, but they are unable to agree on how to deliver it and that is why we are where we are.
		
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About 380 voted for putting Art 50 into law!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			I donâ€™t think Brexit was needed to show how appalling Boris is. That was apparent a long time ago.
		
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So now I say something like 'Boris fades onto insignificance compared to Corbyn on the political continuum of apaulingnes' and then you retort with another Boris insult and then Fragger decides to....   Best the custard pies go back in the cupboard.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			About 380 voted for putting Art 50 into law!
		
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The answer to that one will be 'MPs had different views on how article 50 should have been activated'   Theres always an excuse that we should remain.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer to that one will be 'MPs had different views on how article 50 should have been activated'   Theres always an excuse that we should remain.
		
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Or if TM hadnâ€™t called a snap election and ran with the 329 Tory MPâ€™s who voted for Art 50 to then back her plan.


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## woody69 (Sep 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer to that one will be 'MPs had different views on how article 50 should have been activated'   Theres always an excuse that we should remain.
		
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Not really. A50 is just the legal mechanism for any member state to leave the EU. The fact it was voted into Law by parliament shows the result of the referendum was accepted and the initial steps to leave were put into motion.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 7, 2019)

MPs today are really out of their depth .
The problem lies with past PMs who have put us in a position that we canâ€™t really get a good deal as the EU hold most of the cards.
They have got us so deep into Europe that itâ€™s going to cause pain to leave.
But how much pain is anyoneâ€™s guess.
And negotiations have stalled causing a no deal or remain choice as the only options imo.
It really is a mess!


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## woody69 (Sep 7, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			MPs today are really out of their depth .
The problem lies with past PMs who have put us in a position that we canâ€™t really get a good deal as the EU hold most of the cards.
They have got us so deep into Europe that itâ€™s going to cause pain to leave.
But how much pain is anyoneâ€™s guess.
And negotiations have stalled causing a no deal or remain choice as the only options imo.
It really is a mess!
		
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I think the issue is we have such a good deal with the EU already as members that there is no deal we can possibly make with them that would be better as a nation outside it without making significant concessions on our own red lines


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## Hobbit (Sep 7, 2019)

Why on earth can't they rewind a little and accept the Canada Free Trade Deal that Tusk initially offered? There was no backstop to it, or any of the other rubbish. Both sides are back into a corner from which neither seems to want to move away from.


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## Parsaregood (Sep 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Why on earth can't they rewind a little and accept the Canada Free Trade Deal that Tusk initially offered? There was no backstop to it, or any of the other rubbish. Both sides are back into a corner from which neither seems to want to move away from.
		
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As time went on there were issues invented to create tension and nervousness towards leaving the EU. Project fear had begun in earnest and the coup to retain us within the EU's net had begun. The EU dont want us to leave, a very many MP's who have been in senior positions dont want us to leave the EU. When you combine these two facts, it becomes apparent why the country has ended up in the position it is in.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2019)

So the PM doesn't want to sign the pre-defined letter that the new law says he must or risk a jail sentence

I thought anything signed under threat/duress was invalid ?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I think the issue is we have such a good deal with the EU already as members that there is no deal we can possibly make with them that would be better as a nation outside it without making significant concessions on our own red lines
		
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None of that is relevant, we were asked to make a decision to accept Camerons proposed reformed EU or to leave. We voted to leave. Whatever the consequences are we have to put up with, it is not a matter of whether or not we have a better deal now, introducing change is often risky but leaving the EU is a change of trading arrangements, I am amazed at people who dont believe this country can manage this without catastrophic consequences.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 7, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I think the issue is we have such a good deal with the EU already as members that there is no deal we can possibly make with them that would be better as a nation outside it without making significant concessions on our own red lines
		
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I think with trade you are right.
But the interference from them on the political side, is a step to far for some.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 7, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			As time went on there were issues invented to create tension and nervousness towards leaving the EU. Project fear had begun in earnest and the coup to retain us within the EU's net had begun. The EU dont want us to leave, a very many MP's who have been in senior positions dont want us to leave the EU. When you combine these two facts, it becomes apparent why the country has ended up in the position it is in.
		
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The problem is they asked us!
Now they have to do what we told them .


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## Slime (Sep 7, 2019)

Saw this and had a little chuckle;


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2019)

Slime said:



			Saw this and had a little chuckle;

View attachment 28176

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Its life Jim, but not as we know it


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## woody69 (Sep 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Why on earth can't they rewind a little and accept the Canada Free Trade Deal that Tusk initially offered? There was no backstop to it, or any of the other rubbish. Both sides are back into a corner from which neither seems to want to move away from.
		
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Because it required the annexing of Northern Ireland to the EU.


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## woody69 (Sep 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			None of that is relevant, we were asked to make a decision to accept Camerons proposed reformed EU or to leave. We voted to leave. Whatever the consequences are we have to put up with, it is not a matter of whether or not we have a better deal now, introducing change is often risky but leaving the EU is a change of trading arrangements, I am amazed at people who dont believe this country can manage this without catastrophic consequences.
		
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It really has nothing to do with belief. A balance needs to be struck between the sacrifices that will have to be made and the impact to Britain versus any long term benefit leaving may or may not bring. Throw in the added complexity of our red lines and the fact we share a land border with the EU that under the GFA means we can't just put up a border to control trade and people it is an extremely complex problem.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 7, 2019)

Hypothetically, and I don't know the answer to this. What would happen if Boris stepped down and there was another primeminister election within the Conservative party. How long would that take.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 7, 2019)

Were any of these issues identified by Remain during the campaign prior to the vote or by the MP's prior to voting in Article 50?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Were any of these issues identified by Remain during the campaign prior to the vote or by the MP's prior to voting in Article 50?
		
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I get were youâ€™re coming from, but can only speak for myself, I believe I took a while listening to both sides, read what I could from various resources and came down to the opinion weâ€™d be better of out of the EU with a deal that both benefitted and protected our interests.

I am also intelligent enough to realise we would have to make some compromises as it was highly unlikely weâ€™d get everything in our favour.

I therefore voted Leave with the belief we would leave with a deal.

I doubt I would of voted Leave if No Deal had been on the table.

Putting party allegiances aside, the whole affair since the deal was made public has been an embarrassment.

Very few if any MPâ€™s come out of this with credit and with hindsight I truly wish TM had not called a GE in 2017 as I believe this is were the trouble really began.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I get were youâ€™re coming from, but can only speak for myself, I believe I took a while listening to both sides, read what I could from various resources and came down to the opinion weâ€™d be better of out of the EU with a deal that both benefitted and protected our interests.
		
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That's pretty much where I was, allied with an inherent distrust of Brussels.




pauldj42 said:



			I am also intelligent enough to realise we would have to make some compromises as it was highly unlikely weâ€™d get everything in our favour.

I therefore voted Leave with the belief we would leave with a deal.
		
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Same for me.



pauldj42 said:



			I doubt I would of voted Leave if No Deal had been on the table.
		
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No deal wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest if it was the best deal for us.



pauldj42 said:



			Putting party allegiances aside, the whole affair since the deal was made public has been an embarrassment.

Very few if any MPâ€™s come out of this with credit and with hindsight I truly wish TM had not called a GE in 2017 as I believe this is were the trouble really began.
		
Click to expand...

Fully agree with that, they have been an absolute shambles.


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## woody69 (Sep 7, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Were any of these issues identified by Remain during the campaign prior to the vote or by the MP's prior to voting in Article 50?
		
Click to expand...

Not really. The remain campaign was a disaster. It focused too much on economic risk and jobs and gambling on an unknown. It should have focused more on the benefits being in the Union provides, whilst acknowledging there is room for significant improvement. 

The Government should also had a clearer strategy on what a leave vote would actually mean and how the complex issues could be resolved such as the NI border issue. The problem is Cameron arrogantly thought that remain would win easily, and the only reason he called it was to appease the Tory Euro-sceptics that had started to drift over to UKIP, so added it to the Conservative manifesto


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I'm still waiting for remoaners to explain why a trading bloc requires a flag, an army, a president, an anthem, & insists on member states resigning their sovereignty?
		
Click to expand...

Because it's more than a 'trading bloc'!


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## Old Skier (Sep 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I'm still waiting for remoaners to explain why a trading bloc requires a flag, an army, a president, an anthem, & insists on member states resigning their sovereignty?
		
Click to expand...

Normal for a Federal State.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			No deal wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest if it was the best deal for us
		
Click to expand...

Again, I see what you saying, but I think that would only be in hindsight after an unknown period.

Youâ€™ve obviously got more bottle than me.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Because it's more than a 'trading bloc'!
		
Click to expand...

It never used to be thatâ€™s when the problems started.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 7, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Were any of these issues identified by Remain during the campaign prior to the vote or by the MP's prior to voting in Article 50?
		
Click to expand...

Well the answer to that is NO.


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			It never used to be thatâ€™s when the problems started.
		
Click to expand...

So? 
Change happens! You either live with it, or (attempt to) change it!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So?
Change happens! You either live with it, or (attempt to) change it!
		
Click to expand...

David Cameron tried to change it from the inside and got two fingers.
Thatâ€™s why we are discussing it now.
You canâ€™t change them from within they proved that they donâ€™t want to.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Hypothetically, and I don't know the answer to this. What would happen if Boris stepped down and there was another primeminister election within the Conservative party. How long would that take.
		
Click to expand...

I think about 4/5 weeks! I'd assume the new PM, under threat of jail, would have to sign the new law, unless it had been repealed.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 7, 2019)

Looks like Amber Rudd has kicked it in the head. 
Looks like John Mann has kicked it in the head.
At least they have an hour to get down the pub.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Looks like Amber Rudd has kicked it in the head.
Looks like John Mann has kicked it in the head.
At least they have an hour to get down the pub.
		
Click to expand...

Rudd accepts an offer from BJ and joins the Cabinet, surely she knew exactly what the likely course of action would be and BJ's stance was well publicised - now she bails out !


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## robinthehood (Sep 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			Rudd accepts an offer from BJ and joins the Cabinet, surely she knew exactly what the likely course of action would be and BJ's stance was well publicised - now she bails out !
		
Click to expand...

I've read her letter,  good on her for telling bj to stick it for the what he's been up to.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			Rudd accepts an offer from BJ and joins the Cabinet, surely she knew exactly what the likely course of action would be and BJ's stance was well publicised - now she bails out !
		
Click to expand...

If itâ€™s correct, they are reporting she has resigned over how those who had the whip removed have been treated.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			Rudd accepts an offer from BJ and joins the Cabinet, surely she knew exactly what the likely course of action would be and BJ's stance was well publicised - now she bails out !
		
Click to expand...


But Rudd is saying she no longer believes that Depfeffel is even trying to get a deal That is her stated reason for leaving no? 

Donâ€™t get me wrong Iâ€™m sure that members of this forum have more insight into the cabinets current direction than a cabinet member but that is what she is saying.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think about 4/5 weeks! I'd assume the new PM, under threat of jail, would have to sign the new law, unless it had been repealed.
		
Click to expand...

But between Boris resigning and being replaced we wouldn't have a PM to ask for an extension and the law as it appears to be written is that it is the PM that has to ask for the extension.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 7, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Again, I see what you saying, but I think that would only be in hindsight after an unknown period.

Youâ€™ve obviously got more bottle than me. 

Click to expand...

My bigger concern is the allegedly parlous state of some of the other net contributors' economies; I figured we'd be better off running away now and take the chance rather than picking up the bill later.

So maybe less bottle!


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## Slime (Sep 7, 2019)

Another one that made me chuckle;


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 7, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			But between Boris resigning and being replaced we wouldn't have a PM to ask for an extension and the law as it appears to be written is that it is the PM that has to ask for the extension.
		
Click to expand...

According to the pundits who were anticipating possible moves by Boris to get an election, one was that he would resign as PM which would mean that Corbin would be asked by the Queen if he could form a government. If he could not( and why he could or could not is not known to me, some sort of 
Parliament rules etc ?), then an election would follow.
If this is so, it could be his last throw of the dice, rather than go to Brussels as the new law requires.
From what he has been saying, I think he would "throw the dice"


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 7, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			According to the pundits who were anticipating possible moves by Boris to get an election, one was that he would resign as PM which would mean that Corbin would be asked by the Queen if he could form a government. If he could not( and why he could or could not is not known to me, some sort of
Parliament rules etc ?), then an election would follow.
If this is so, it could be his last throw of the dice, rather than go to Brussels as the new law requires.
From what he has been saying, I think he would "throw the dice"
		
Click to expand...

How has it come to this ?
Itâ€™s an absolute joke.
These people have no shame at all and will claim itâ€™s all planed when the dust settles .
Whatever side eventually wins.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2019)

Well all I can say is I'm bloody glad I never had a Board of Directors that talked about what was said and planned in the Board room. 

What happened to collective responsibility and simple negotiation strategy - dam clowns.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 7, 2019)

SAys it all


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1170420337013489664


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			SAys it all


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1170420337013489664

Click to expand...

Kipling phrased it well in 'IF'
*"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools"*


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## robinthehood (Sep 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			SAys it all


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1170420337013489664

Click to expand...

Sorry but that's just garbage. Kind of naff over the top melodramatic stuff you see on Facebook all the time.
The only reply to that would would be "U ok hun" 
ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Sorry but that's just garbage. Kind of naff over the top melodramatic stuff you see on Facebook all the time.
The only reply to that would would be "U ok hun"
ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

And her answer could well be 'No, I'm p***ed off that those, in a position to do so, who promised to implement the result of the referendum haven't been able to do so and, in fact, seem determined to prevent it!'.
Naff, over the top, melodramatic, perhaps. But not an unreasonable attitude for someone who voted leave imo!

Btw. I voted Remain!


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## woody69 (Sep 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And her answer could well be 'No, I'm p***ed off that those, in a position to do so, who promised to implement the result of the referendum haven't been able to do so and, in fact, seem determined to prevent it!'.
Naff, over the top, melodramatic, perhaps. But not an unreasonable attitude for someone who voted leave imo!

Btw. I voted Remain!
		
Click to expand...

If someone could assure me that leaving the EU would improve our quality of life, retain our standards, not screw employees, reduce the growing inequality between the rich, not leave us worse off economically and is not just an opportunity for a few people to make themselves richer then I'll be converted!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 8, 2019)

woody69 said:



			If someone could assure me that leaving the EU would improve our quality of life, retain our standards, not screw employees, reduce the growing inequality between the rich, not leave us worse off economically and is not just an opportunity for a few people to make themselves richer then I'll be converted!
		
Click to expand...

I can assure you that leaving the EU will improve our quality of life, retain our standards, not screw employees, reduce the growing inequality between the rich, not leave us worse off economically and is not just an opportunity for a few people to make themselves richer. 

There you go, consider yourself converted. 




N.B. All of the first sentence above could be politely considered to be the brown stuff that comes out of the back end of a male cow.


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## woody69 (Sep 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Sorry but that's just garbage. Kind of naff over the top melodramatic stuff you see on Facebook all the time.
The only reply to that would would be "U ok hun"
ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree. The notion that the vote has been ignored is odd seeing as we have talked about nothing else for 3 years and would actually have left in march if it wasn't for the ERG, but no, lets blame everyone else.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I'd have to agree. The notion that the vote has been ignored is odd seeing as we have talked about nothing else for 3 years and would actually have left in march if it wasn't for the ERG, but no, lets blame everyone else.
		
Click to expand...

The narrative is all aroud blame from the Depfeffel camp and making sure none lands on him.   They could have supported May and we would be negotiating the actual deal now.   And I know that plenty will be in with the â€œthat was a shit dealâ€ narrative but thatâ€™s subjective.   There was always going to be a great deal of compromise needed , unless you are very naive which plenty are.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 8, 2019)

So Labour s latest position is remain or TM's deal which they voted down every time ???


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1170615293539995648
So remain then.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Sorry but that's just garbage. Kind of naff over the top melodramatic stuff you see on Facebook all the time.
The only reply to that would would be "U ok hun"
ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

Yet millions of voters feel that way. If as said it was published as a times piece. We are not talking about a gossip column. I said this the other week, this debate has got into a slanging match. We are happy to slag off politicians, but members of the public are even worse that they cannot respect an opposing view.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

But Labour were not the majority government , itâ€™s down to the government to get business done.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 8, 2019)

woody69 said:



			If someone could assure me that leaving the EU would improve our quality of life, retain our standards, not screw employees, reduce the growing inequality between the rich, not leave us worse off economically and is not just an opportunity for a few people to make themselves richer then I'll be converted!
		
Click to expand...

I think your honest comment only hits the nail halfway down. Bottom line Is no one really knows if we will be better off. But for the nail to be knocked all the way down. We do know what will happen if we stay in the EU re laws and rules. And that is what some people do not want.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 8, 2019)

Thoughts on this one.
The speaker of the House, mr John Bercow is a Tory stepped down from his allgiance to the party to take up the office. Understandable. He is then unopposed in his constituency while he holds office. However the Tories have now said they will put an MP against him at the next election as he went on record at the Edinburgh fringe festival as saying " he will fight Brexit/ no deal til the very end". 
Now my point is this. How can he be impartial. If he is not why is he sat there.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Yet millions of voters feel that way. If as said it was published as a times piece. We are not talking about a gossip column. I said this the other week, this debate has got into a slanging match. We are happy to slag off politicians, but members of the public are even worse that they cannot respect an opposing view.
		
Click to expand...

I have real sympathy for those who have been disenfranchised by voting leave on the back of all the bullshit sound bites about â€œeasiest deal in historyâ€ and then being let down by the Tories when it turns out it isnâ€™t that easy. 

I have no sympathy when we donâ€™t apportion blame correctly to those who peddled those messages and are now totally proven incompetent to deliver anything.     

Reading the narrative from the leave side in this thread you would think that â€œno dealâ€ is the only acceptable outcome these days.  

I voted remain but can understand that we lost (though to be fair I had Â£500 on leave at 7-2 so happy days) .  A 52/48 split of those who voted  suggests a very divided country which is borne out repeatedly In threads like this.   In order to get some consensus back in politics the worst thing is to try and bulldoze a no deal through which ignores those 48%.


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## Twire (Sep 8, 2019)

woody69 said:



			If someone could assure me that leaving the EU would improve our quality of life, retain our standards, not screw employees, reduce the growing inequality between the rich, not leave us worse off economically and is not just an opportunity for a few people to make themselves richer then I'll be converted!
		
Click to expand...

Can you answer the same question for staying in the EU?


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## Fade and Die (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			I have real sympathy for those who have been disenfranchised by voting leave on the back of all the bullshit sound bites about â€œeasiest deal in historyâ€ and then being let down by the Tories when it turns out it isnâ€™t that easy.

I have no sympathy when we donâ€™t apportion blame correctly to those who peddled those messages and are now totally proven incompetent to deliver anything.    

Reading the narrative from the leave side in this thread you would think that â€œno dealâ€ is the only acceptable outcome these days. 

I voted remain but can understand that we lost (though to be fair I had Â£500 on leave at 7-2 so happy days) .  A 52/48 split of those who voted  suggests a very divided country which is borne out repeatedly In threads like this.   *In order to get some consensus back in politics the worst thing is to try and bulldoze a no deal through which ignores those 48%*.
		
Click to expand...

Wrong obviously. The worst thing would be to ignore the majority completely. Which is what Parliament is trying to do now.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Wrong obviously. The worst thing would be to ignore the majority completely. Which is what Parliament is trying to do now.
		
Click to expand...

Trying to negotiate a way to leave and being let down previously by the Tories not clubbing together is not ignoring the majority completely.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			I have real sympathy for those who have been disenfranchised by voting leave on the back of all the bullshit sound bites about â€œeasiest deal in historyâ€ and then being let down by the Tories when it turns out it isnâ€™t that easy.

I have no sympathy when we donâ€™t apportion blame correctly to those who peddled those messages and are now totally proven incompetent to deliver anything.    

Reading the narrative from the leave side in this thread you would think that â€œno dealâ€ is the only acceptable outcome these days. 

I voted remain but can understand that we lost (though to be fair I had Â£500 on leave at 7-2 so happy days) .  A 52/48 split of those who voted  suggests a very divided country which is borne out repeatedly In threads like this.   In order to get some consensus back in politics the worst thing is to try and bulldoze a no deal through which ignores those 48%.
		
Click to expand...

You missed out the fact that the 48% were on the losing side.
We are in this mess because TM tried to please both sides.

The majority of voters donâ€™t vote for the party in government under FPTP should we keep voting until we get 51%.
If you have a referendum some voters have to lose . Winning and losing isnâ€™t understood properly these days.

No deal unfortunately seems to be on the cards as the EU wonâ€™t reopen negotiations and MPs wonâ€™t vote for TM deal.
So imo itâ€™s no deal or remain in a GE.
I canâ€™t see any other outcome.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

Twire said:



			Can you answer the same question for staying in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

Letâ€™s take a stab at the EU tax avoidance directive that comes into effect in 2020. Who do we think would lose from that- the working/middle class or those like JRM with a Â£50m inherited fortune. ?


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## Leftie (Sep 8, 2019)

Twire said:



			Can you answer the same question for staying in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

A question that has been asked *many* times on here and so far *not one* reasoned reply.  

Basically, it boils down to the fact that nobody knows what the future will bring - whichever side of the fence you sit.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			You missed out the fact that the 48% were on the losing side.
We are in this mess because TM tried to please both sides.

The majority of voters donâ€™t vote for the party in government under FPTP should we keep voting until we get 51%.
If you have a referendum some voters have to lose . Winning and losing isnâ€™t understood properly these days.

No deal unfortunately seems to be on the cards as the EU wonâ€™t reopen negotiations and MPs wonâ€™t vote for TM deal.
So imo itâ€™s no deal or remain in a GE.
I canâ€™t see any other outcome.
		
Click to expand...

Politics should always try to please both sides, hence the prevalence for centre ground politics over many years which we now seem to be losing over a single issue. 

Gaining the support of just over half a population and ignoring the rest is very dangerous and divisive by its nature.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

Leftie said:



			A question that has been asked *many* times on here and so far *not one* reasoned reply.

Basically, it boils down to the fact that nobody knows what the future will bring - whichever side of the fence you sit.
		
Click to expand...

Letâ€™s take a stab at the EU tax avoidance directive that comes into effect in 2020. Who do we think would lose from that- the working/middle class or those like JRM with a Â£50m inherited fortune. ?

Letâ€™s start here then Leftie. Do you agree we should have Tax avoidance regulation strengthened and on balance do you think the EU or the Tories are more likely to do so?  And do you think that stopping such laws coming into force has any impact on those politicians and money men pursuing Brexit at any cost?

Iâ€™ll give you a starter for 10 

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...-as-eu-tax-avoidance-legislation-looms/03/09/


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			SAys it all


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1170420337013489664

Click to expand...

Absolutely agree with this .
I am 61 now ,paid my taxes in for 42yrs and this is the first chance I have had to cast a vote on the EU.


Hitdaball said:



			Politics should always try to please both sides, hence the prevalence for centre ground politics over many years which we now seem to be losing over a single issue.

Gaining the support of just over half a population and ignoring the rest is very dangerous and divisive by its nature.
		
Click to expand...

yes I agree with you .
But not leaving will cause more harm to our politics.
But if you donâ€™t like the answer donâ€™t ask the question, but Cameron asked and 52% said we want to leave.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

But not leaving will cause more harm to our politics....

I agree with that , it pains me but I agree. Thatâ€™s doesnâ€™t mean we have to go nuclear.


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## woody69 (Sep 8, 2019)

Twire said:



			Can you answer the same question for staying in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

Yes.

The EU have helped clean up our air quality, improved our beaches and is currently investing millions to improve the quality of life under the LIFE programme

Standards have improved, so will at the very least be maintained. A trade deal with the US as an example is likely to see a drop in standards

There is certainly work to be done to tackle inequality between the rich and the poor, but hopefully the EU tax avoidance directive will start to address that

In terms of economically, I can't see a scenario that makes the UK economically better off in the short to medium term by leaving. In the long term - 20 years, say - we can't be certain of anything, and probably couldn't attribute it in any case. 

From my point of view, when we leave the EU, especially, but not exclusively, if we do so without a deal, the costs of trade between the UK and the EU will increase. Whether it's through tariffs, non-tariff barriers, or simple red tape, costs will rise. That in itself will reduce profits, business activity growth and national economic growth below the level it would otherwise have been. I can't see any alternative to that logic.

Furthermore, the UK is likely to come under pressure in those industries - especially financial services - where the EU would like to bring activity more 'in house' than it would become. Plus, the increased costs of doing business with the EU from outside will give companies within the EU a competitive advantage they do not currently enjoy, thereby reducing the amount and profitability of the UK firms. Again, this may be as much a brake on growth rather than a reduction in current levels, but the effect is still accurately described as being 'worse off' after Brexit. Also again, I can't see a flaw in the logic.

We are told that the ability to sign our own trade deals will more than compensate for the damage to our trade with the EU, but this ignores the trade deals we have already signed as members of the EU, for which our greatest stated hope is to maintain the current terms - something that Japan, for one, has said isn't going to happen. We are asking, as a 66 million consumer country, for the same terms as were agreed with a 450 million consumer bloc. In some cases, we aren't going to get it.

So to America, and Trump's wonderful deal. (Let's leave aside the fact that Trump's idea of a good trade deal is to end up in a better financial position then when it starts, and that the UK currently has a surplus in its trade with the US. ) This is where the geography comes in. The gravity model of international trade is established, remarkably robust, and common sensical: the closer you are to your trading partner, the more trade you are going to do. We are 25 miles from the EU and 3500 from the US. Yes, there is scope to increase trade with the US, but there is no economic model which suggests that the increase could come anywhere near compensating for the damage to trade with the EU, let alone leave us better off.

I am absolutely open to an economic argument that can refute those points. If the only response is that we 'don't know' because anything can happen, then fine, but 'anything' can be bad, just as much as it can be good, and it isn't going to move the median position based on sound economic logic wherein the UK suffers, and for a long time.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			But not leaving will cause more harm to our politics....

I agree with that , it pains me but I agree. Thatâ€™s doesnâ€™t mean we have to go nuclear.
		
Click to expand...

when it's your only option other than remain I see no other option.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			But not leaving will cause more harm to our politics....

I agree with that , it pains me but I agree. Thatâ€™s doesnâ€™t mean we have to go nuclear.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately our incompetent MPs havnt given us a choice itâ€™s no deal or remain imo.


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Thoughts on this one.
The speaker of the House, mr John Bercow is a Tory stepped down from his allgiance to the party to take up the office. Understandable. He is then unopposed in his constituency while he holds office. However the Tories have now said they will put an MP against him at the next election as he went on record at the Edinburgh fringe festival as saying " he will fight Brexit/ no deal til the very end".
Now my point is this. How can he be impartial. If he is not why is he sat there.
		
Click to expand...

He doesn't have to BE impartial!

He just has to ACT impartially in his rile as Speaker!

He wouldn't be in politics if he really was impartial 

While my view is that the only way Brexit will happen is via the No Deal clause of Article 50, I find it obscene that BoJo (perhaps Bozo would be a better abbreviation!) has acted the way he has wrt 'dissenters' in his party. Reading her tweet and resignation letter, that appears, to me, to be the main reason she resigned from Cabinet - and the Party!


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			...In order to get some consensus back in politics the worst thing is to try and bulldoze a no deal through which ignores those 48%.
		
Click to expand...

To quote Mr Spock (again)....That is illogical!

However...Consensus COULD perhaps be achieved by actually leaving and negotiating suitable arrangements that would keep the benefits (the one that the vast majority can agree on) of being a member - like free trade, co-ordination of standards and research, intelligence/security etc without the perceived shackles of freedom of movement and subordination of laws and policies. That COULD happen as part of a deal, though I hold little confidence that will be the case. It could also happen by negotiation in the future - how far being dependent on the power of egos (in the RU) and how the economies of remaining members fare in the next couple of years - or maybe less.


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## drdel (Sep 8, 2019)

Leftie said:



			A question that has been asked *many* times on here and so far *not one* reasoned reply. 

Basically, it boils down to the fact that nobody knows what the future will bring - whichever side of the fence you sit.
		
Click to expand...

If you have a look at what Monnet & Schuman said in 1950 you'll get a pretty good idea. Basically they said if we do little changes at a time the countries and their population won't notice and we can get from a Coal & Steel alliance for France and Germany to a European fully Federal state and that's exactly what has been happening.


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## Beezerk (Sep 8, 2019)

Just reading that France are going to vote against another Brexit extension


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## drdel (Sep 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Just reading that France are going to vote against another Brexit extension 

Click to expand...

Aye and Macron himself is keeping quiet, A few Germans are also suggesting that nowt has changed so what's the point of further time.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 8, 2019)

If that is the case then it really is no deal or remain and bring on the GE.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 8, 2019)

AR to stand as a n independent at the next GE, but not at her current constituency !


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Just reading that France are going to vote against another Brexit extension 

Click to expand...

If that is the case then Boris will be grinning. What do Labour, Lib Dems etc do about an election request at that point? The reason for objecting disappears.

Blimey politics is moving quickly right now.


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## Mudball (Sep 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			If that is the case then it really is no deal or remain and bring on the GE.
		
Click to expand...

Or another ref?


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## Fade and Die (Sep 8, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Or another ref?
		
Click to expand...

Why?


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Gaining the support of just over half a population and ignoring the rest is very dangerous and divisive by its nature.
		
Click to expand...

Substitute "constituency" for "population ", and that is what happens in every 
Parliamentary election, General or By.
And sometimes, even less than half.


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## Beezerk (Sep 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If that is the case then Boris will be grinning. What do Labour, Lib Dems etc do about an election request at that point? The reason for objecting disappears.

Blimey politics is moving quickly right now.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it looks like it could be the get out of jail card for Boris, unless he knew in advance an extension would not happen?
I foresee another commons vote to overturn an EU ruling and Gina Miller to start yet another court case


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			He doesn't have to BE impartial!

He just has to ACT impartially in his rile as Speaker!

He wouldn't be in politics if he really was impartial

While my view is that the only way Brexit will happen is via the No Deal clause of Article 50, I find it obscene that BoJo (perhaps Bozo would be a better abbreviation!) has acted the way he has wrt 'dissenters' in his party. *Reading her tweet and resignation letter, that appears, to me, to be the main reason she resigned from Cabinet - and the Party!*

Click to expand...



Re your last sentence, could it be, rather, that she has been informed that come a GE, she would not be selected as a candidate? She is a remainer, is she not?


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Re your last sentence, could it be, rather, that she has been informed that come a GE, she would not be selected as a candidate? She is a remainer, is she not?
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but that sentence still stands!


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Substitute "constituency" for "population ", and that is what happens in every
Parliamentary election, General or By.
And sometimes, even less than half.
		
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No it isnâ€™t.  For a start its rare for any party to get 50% of the vote ðŸ˜‚.  

Parties donâ€™t stand in GEâ€™s on policies from the extremes of their spectrum, they stand typically in the middle ground to appeal to as broad a spectrum as possible.   Ignoring the middle ground just results in electoral defeat ( as running a new referendum now with revoke or no deal as the only 2 choices would likely result in a win for revoke)


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## drdel (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			No it isnâ€™t.  For a start its rare for any party to get 50% of the vote ðŸ˜‚. 

Parties donâ€™t stand in GEâ€™s on policies from the extremes of their spectrum, they stand typically in the middle ground to appeal to as broad a spectrum as possible.   Ignoring the middle ground just results in electoral defeat ( as running a new referendum now with revoke or no deal as the only 2 choices would likely result in a win for revoke)
		
Click to expand...

Except that Labour will not include the No Deal option in a referendum rerun.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Just reading that France are going to vote against another Brexit extension 

Click to expand...

was this the quote ?
Franceâ€™s foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, asked if an extension beyond October 31 was possible
_â€œWe are not going to do (extend) this every three monthsâ€¦â€ _

doesn't say they wont extend but could be last chance saloon, with them wanting to fix the EU budget


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## spongebob59 (Sep 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			Except that Labour will not include the No Deal option in a referendum rerun.
		
Click to expand...

 That was last weeks position


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## Beezerk (Sep 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			was this the quote ?
Franceâ€™s foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, asked if an extension beyond October 31 was possible
_â€œWe are not going to do (extend) this every three monthsâ€¦â€ _

doesn't say they wont extend but could be last chance saloon, with them wanting to fix the EU budget
		
Click to expand...

Yes that's the one, the headline of the article made it sound much more certain.
Interesting times, I think the fact that other countries politicians are effectively having a big say in the future of our nation says a lot.


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## Hobbit (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Trying to negotiate a way to leave and being let down previously by the Tories not clubbing together is not ignoring the majority completely.
		
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Leaving is, in theory, easy. "Bye, we're off."

I expected that it would be a clean break, with the trade arrangements negotiated thereafter. And if you look at May's deal, there's nothing in it remotely like a trade deal, access etc. The divorce bill I don't have have a problem with, other than "there you go, here's all the money." There's elements of that sum that aren't accurately calculated, as listed in May's agreement. It says the total will be accurately sought each year going forward.

Add to that extra monies will be paid right up to 2028.

I feel that by trying to sort a deal has actually been counter-productive in terms of leaving.


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Yes that's the one, the headline of the article made it sound much more certain...
		
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Surely you are not surprised that the news media bend the truth - at least in headlines!


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## Beezerk (Sep 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Surely you are not surprised that the news media bend the truth - at least in headlines!
		
Click to expand...

Not at all lol.


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## robinthehood (Sep 8, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I'd have to agree. The notion that the vote has been ignored is odd seeing as we have talked about nothing else for 3 years and would actually have left in march if it wasn't for the ERG, but no, lets blame everyone else.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly , I remember when the erg rejected mays deal I posted on here that by doing so they had pretty much   cancelled brexit as that was their best chance.  Pretty ridiculous listening to all the moaning about it being the fault of Corbyn etc .
The mess we are in is 100% conservative.


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## drdel (Sep 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			That was last weeks position 

Click to expand...

Aye, he repeated it to Andrew Marr this morning.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Exactly , I remember when the erg rejected mays deal I posted on here that by doing so they had pretty much   cancelled brexit as that was their best chance.  Pretty ridiculous listening to all the moaning about it being the fault of Corbyn etc .
		
Click to expand...


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## robinthehood (Sep 8, 2019)

Please don't quote me with alterations


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## spongebob59 (Sep 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Please don't quote me with alterations
		
Click to expand...

Apologies, retracted.


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## Old Skier (Sep 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Just reading that France are going to vote against another Brexit extension 

Click to expand...

They will do what the Germans tell them


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## Leftie (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Letâ€™s take a stab at the EU tax avoidance directive that comes into effect in 2020. Who do we think would lose from that- the working/middle class or those like JRM with a Â£50m inherited fortune. ?

Letâ€™s start here then Leftie. Do you agree we should have Tax avoidance regulation strengthened and on balance do you think the EU or the Tories are more likely to do so?  And do you think that stopping such laws coming into force has any impact on those politicians and money men pursuing Brexit at any cost?

Iâ€™ll give you a starter for 10

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...-as-eu-tax-avoidance-legislation-looms/03/09/

Click to expand...

Perhaps you can help me out further.  I really can't be bothered to read each and every link people post here to support their position.  Please just tell me, as a retiree on a (slightly enhanced) state pension, in what way will this benefit me. several millions like me, and the country as a whole, in the short and long term?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Just reading that France are going to vote against another Brexit extension 

Click to expand...

Let's just check what Le Drian said...

_In a sign of rising exasperation, the French foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, highlighted the lack of realistic proposals being put forward by Downing Street as an alternative to the Irish backstop._

_â€œItâ€™s very worrying. The British must tell us what they want,â€ Le Drian said._

_When asked if an extension beyond 31 October was possible, Le Drian said the EUâ€™s patience was waning. â€œWe are not going to do this [extend the deadline] every three months,â€ the French minister added. The Benn bill, due to receive royal assent this week, would extend the UKâ€™s membership until 31 January 2020._

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/08/france-threatens-to-veto-further-brexit-extension

So unless Le Drian (or another French minister) said something in addition to that reported in my link - and if he did please can I have a link to it -  I am struggling to reconcile what he said with a conclusion that he has said that France will vote against a request for an extension to 31st January 2020.


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## Old Skier (Sep 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Let's just check what Le Drian said...

_In a sign of rising exasperation, the French foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, highlighted the lack of realist being put forward by Downing Street as an alternative to the Irish backstop._

_â€œItâ€™s very worrying. The British must tell us what they want,â€ Le Drian said._

_When asked if an extension beyond 31 October was possible, Le Drian said the EUâ€™s patience was waning. â€œWe are not going to do this [extend the deadline] every three months,â€ the French minister added. The Benn bill, due to receive royal assent this week, would extend the UKâ€™s membership until 31 January 2020._

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/08/france-threatens-to-veto-further-brexit-extension

So unless Le Drian (or another French minister) said something in addition to that reported in my link - and if he did please can I have a link to it -  I am struggling to reconcile what he said with a conclusion that he has said that France will vote against a request for an extension to 31st January 2020.
		
Click to expand...

You could always have this take on it https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/08/no-c...t-delay-as-things-stand-france-says-10705599/


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## Fade and Die (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You could always this take on it https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/08/no-c...t-delay-as-things-stand-france-says-10705599/

Click to expand...


In the words of Montgomery Burns...Excellent!


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## Old Skier (Sep 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			In the words of Montgomery Burns...Excellent!
		
Click to expand...

Won't do any good


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## Beezerk (Sep 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Let's just check what Le Drian said...

_In a sign of rising exasperation, the French foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, highlighted the lack of realistic proposals being put forward by Downing Street as an alternative to the Irish backstop._

_â€œItâ€™s very worrying. The British must tell us what they want,â€ Le Drian said._

_When asked if an extension beyond 31 October was possible, Le Drian said the EUâ€™s patience was waning. â€œWe are not going to do this [extend the deadline] every three months,â€ the French minister added. The Benn bill, due to receive royal assent this week, would extend the UKâ€™s membership until 31 January 2020._

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/08/france-threatens-to-veto-further-brexit-extension

So unless Le Drian (or another French minister) said something in addition to that reported in my link - and if he did please can I have a link to it -  I am struggling to reconcile what he said with a conclusion that he has said that France will vote against a request for an extension to 31st January 2020.
		
Click to expand...

Crikey I was just making conversation, I didn't realise every word you type on here is forensically investigated, and I also needed to post at least three documents which back up my statement


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## chrisd (Sep 8, 2019)

Slow learner Beezerk ?

You know you're not going to get off lightly if a post is pro Brexit


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## Tashyboy (Sep 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Crikey I was just making conversation, I didn't realise every word you type on here is forensically investigated, and I also needed to post at least three documents which back up my statement 

Click to expand...

Yeah we need 3 documents to prove your knee is knackered.  your belly aching and pain don't count ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Beezerk (Sep 8, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Yeah we need 3 documents to prove your knee is knackered.  your belly aching and pain don't count ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## IainP (Sep 8, 2019)

woody69 said:
			
		


			.....
From my point of view, when we leave the EU, especially, but not exclusively, if we do so without a deal, the costs of trade between the UK and the EU will increase. Whether it's through tariffs, non-tariff barriers, or simple red tape, costs will rise. That in itself will reduce profits, business activity growth and national economic growth below the level it would otherwise have been. I can't see any alternative to that logic.
......
		
Click to expand...

Was a big post, so clipped out this part.

Largely agree, however, and this is something I don't see being discussed in HOC or media;- Surely the "no deal" position isn't a fixed position for evermore.
As others have said, maybe with all the posturing and "lines" on both sides perhaps the easiest way to hammer something out is from the default WTO position.
I don't know, but may warrant some discussion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You could always have this take on it https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/08/no-c...t-delay-as-things-stand-france-says-10705599/

Click to expand...

Does the French Foreign Minister have a say in it ? 

Wasnâ€™t there also the same sort of story before the last deadline as well 

The EU will say a lot but will happily extend because they keep getting money into their coffers


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## Old Skier (Sep 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Does the French Foreign Minister have a say in it ?

Wasnâ€™t there also the same sort of story before the last deadline as well

The EU will say a lot but will happily extend because they keep getting money into their coffers
		
Click to expand...

Who knows but it is doing the rounds in the media both sides of the channel so hopefully some clarity on the matter will come winging its way from the EU.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Does the French Foreign Minister have a say in it ?

Wasnâ€™t there also the same sort of story before the last deadline as well

The EU will say a lot but will happily extend because they keep getting money into their coffers
		
Click to expand...

Do we actually have any say in it?  We are currently in their club, their club has said we're out on the 31st of October; what effect will a bill passed in our Parliament have of the rules of their club?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 8, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do we actually have any say in it?  We are currently in their club, their club has said we're out on the 31st of October; what effect will a bill passed in our Parliament have of the rules of their club?
		
Click to expand...

Who the hell knows these days - itâ€™s one of the rich exclusive clubs where if enough money is placed on the table it will talk , ignoring the common man outside the club


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## drdel (Sep 8, 2019)

IMO the 'sign' or not sign challenge brought by the MPs against the government is a bit meaningless to the long term. 

Surely everyone in the EU knows the PM has been forced to follow the new law and will do his best to frustrate its impact (possibly helped by the brexit party supporters in now in Brussels. Why would they put much reliance on what was agreed prior to an election because laws can be changed revoked etc. The Federalists must know that the UK staying in the EU will disrupt such a timetable and frustrate the smooth running. Macron especially wants to centralise, if I were he, I'd kick us out.


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do we actually have any say in it?  We are currently in their club, their club has said we're out on the 31st of October; what effect will a bill passed in our Parliament have of the rules of their club?
		
Click to expand...

We (Boris) can ask them to extend. And if they approve, then (perhaps) fine and a 'better' deal could be ngotiated. If not then Boris can smile as he reports back their refusal!


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## Hobbit (Sep 8, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO the 'sign' or not sign challenge brought by the MPs against the government is a bit meaningless to the long term.

Surely everyone in the EU knows the PM has been forced to follow the new law and will do his best to frustrate its impact (possibly helped by the brexit party supporters in now in Brussels. Why would they put much reliance on what was agreed prior to an election because laws can be changed revoked etc. The Federalists must know that the UK staying in the EU will disrupt such a timetable and frustrate the smooth running. Macron especially wants to centralise, if I were he, I'd kick us out.
		
Click to expand...

You can have as many Brexit supporters in Brussels as you like and it won't make a blind bit of difference to how the EU operates or whether laws are passed. Laws there aren't made on the shop floor, and none of the shop floor workers get to propose laws. Everything comes from the EU Commission, made up of 28 commissioners. And the qualified majority rules mean that there isn't the need anymore for unanimous votes.

For all the bleating about federalism and centralising power away from the member states, its even happening in the EU Parliament with the limited powers of MEP's becoming even more limited.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

Leftie said:



			Perhaps you can help me out further.  I really can't be bothered to read each and every link people post here to support their position.  Please just tell me, as a retiree on a (slightly enhanced) state pension, in what way will this benefit me. several millions like me, and the country as a whole, in the short and long term?
		
Click to expand...

It would mean rich folk would have to pay more tax in the countries in which they earn money which would then contribute more to the state funds so that better services for pensioners can be provided, even if those same pensioners seemingly canâ€™t be arsed to read up and understand it.


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## Old Skier (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			It would mean rich folk would have to pay more tax in the countries in which they earn money which would then contribute more to the state funds so that better services for pensioners can be provided, even if those same pensioners seemingly canâ€™t be arsed to read up and understand it.
		
Click to expand...

Define rich. I'm not rich living in this country but I would be considered well of in many EU countries.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Define rich. I'm not rich living in this country but I would be considered well of in many EU countries.
		
Click to expand...

Lest say net wealth in excess of Â£2m. Or you just pick a number. Enough money that paying clever weasels to find ways of squirrelling money and profits away from taxation is an option and feasible.  The sort of thing that JRM and Arron Banks do. For instance.


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## Mudball (Sep 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Why?
		
Click to expand...

Otherwise how do you resolve this mess?? GE is unlikely to give a clear mandate, WA is opposed by MPs, Now the EU say no to an extension (about time) ..   so the only option is no deal (which no remainer and some leavers donâ€™t want)

Only another ref will give you a clear mandate ...


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## Old Skier (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Lest say net wealth in excess of Â£2m. Or you just pick a number. Enough money that paying clever weasels to find ways of squirrelling money and profits away from taxation is an option and feasible.  The sort of thing that JRM and Arron Banks do. For instance.
		
Click to expand...

The EU method, pluck a figure any figure.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The EU method, pluck a figure any figure.
		
Click to expand...

 Jesus you really just are a troll arenâ€™t you?


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## Old Skier (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The EU method, pluck a figure any figure.
		
Click to expand...

No, you appear to be, or give us this figure.


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:





Old Skier said:



			The EU method, pluck a figure any figure.
		
Click to expand...

No, you appear to be, or give us this figure.
		
Click to expand...


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## Old Skier (Sep 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:





Click to expand...


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 8, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			We (Boris) can ask them to extend. And if they approve, then (perhaps) fine and a 'better' deal could be ngotiated. If not then Boris can smile as he reports back their refusal!
		
Click to expand...

FH, you get it, I get it; we can ask, but if they say no we are out.  The point of my post was to counter the assertion made elsewhere that because we've passed a law we automatically stay in; we don't  unless they say so.


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## Old Skier (Sep 8, 2019)

Seems like it might be gaining momentum @SILH https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...delay-unless-deadlock-is-broken-a4231666.html, I wonder if it makes the BBC 2200 hrs news.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			No, you appear to be, or give us this figure.
		
Click to expand...

What point are you trying to prove?   

That you either  have enough wealth to benefit from tax evasion or you just donâ€™t care about those who do?


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## Leftie (Sep 8, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			It would mean rich folk would have to pay more tax in the countries in which they earn money which would then contribute more to the state funds so that better services for pensioners can be provided, even if those same pensioners seemingly canâ€™t be arsed to read up and understand it.
		
Click to expand...

You are probably right.  If we stay in the EU, I can see that we will need to find every penny we can to finance the (probable) increasing contributions that we will have to make to the EU coffers.  I'm not against the idea and am pleased for you if you think that this will be a long term benefit to the UK and a reason to stay in the EU.  And just how much revenue do you think that this will bring in?  Comparatively peanuts methinks 

Better services for pensioners?  Yeh! Right!!


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Define rich. I'm not rich living in this country but I would be considered well of in many EU countries.
		
Click to expand...

Those who deem it worth their while to utilise 'tax avoidance' schemes.

Note: 'Tax Avoidance' is perfectly legal - unless/until found to be illegal. Tax evasion, on the other hand, is always illegal!


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## Fade and Die (Sep 8, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Otherwise how do you resolve this mess?? GE is unlikely to give a clear mandate, WA is opposed by MPs, Now the EU say no to an extension (about time) ..   so the only option is no deal (which no remainer and some leavers donâ€™t want)

Only another ref will give you a clear mandate ...
		
Click to expand...

At this moment in time I think a GE will give a *very* clear mandate to Boris to No Deal. The clue is Corbyn, B.Liar and all the rest running scared of it!


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## harpo_72 (Sep 8, 2019)

Leftie said:



			You are probably right.  If we stay in the EU, I can see that we will need to find every penny we can to finance the (probable) increasing contributions that we will have to make to the EU coffers.  I'm not against the idea and am pleased for you if you think that this will be a long term benefit to the UK and a reason to stay in the EU.  And just how much revenue do you think that this will bring in?  Comparatively peanuts methinks 

Better services for pensioners?  Yeh! Right!!
		
Click to expand...

Just out of interest did you care about pensioners before you became one? 
We have had years in this country where parties have not supported social services purely to give reduced tax rates and win votes... so moaning about it now is a little bit like closing the gate after the horse has bolted.

Pretty much like the leaver claiming that all these decisions were made without their say .. did the government actually participate in Europe, did they offer up solutions to the debates .. nah they did sweet fanny Adams, but we all voted for these governments because we got a small tax benefit etc .. hence the leaver statement is only worth a â€œ ah poppet, never mind â€œ


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## Leftie (Sep 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Just out of interest did you care about pensioners before you became one?
We have had years in this country where parties have not supported social services purely to give reduced tax rates and win votes... so moaning about it now is a little bit like closing the gate after the horse has bolted.

Pretty much like the leaver claiming that all these decisions were made without their say .. did the government actually participate in Europe, did they offer up solutions to the debates .. nah they did sweet fanny Adams, but we all voted for these governments because we got a small tax benefit etc .. hence the leaver statement is only worth a â€œ ah poppet, never mind â€œ
		
Click to expand...

Actually yes.  My father and grandfather were pensioners before me.  Unfortunately the women in the family died before they could take a pension much to the delight, I'm sure, of the insurance companies and govt.

I thought that this particular meander of the thread was about the (alleged) long term benefit to the UK of the EU stopping tax evasion.  I think that you may have have imbibed a little more than me tonight


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## SocketRocket (Sep 8, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You can have as many Brexit supporters in Brussels as you like and it won't make a blind bit of difference to how the EU operates or whether laws are passed. Laws there aren't made on the shop floor, and none of the shop floor workers get to propose laws. Everything comes from the EU Commission, made up of 28 commissioners. And the qualified majority rules mean that there isn't the need anymore for unanimous votes.

For all the bleating about federalism and centralising power away from the member states, its even happening in the EU Parliament with the limited powers of MEP's becoming even more limited.
		
Click to expand...

I heard something on the news where the UK Government could refuse to appoint a UK Commisioner to the EU and this would negate the Commission from functioning under its constitution.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Just out of interest did you care about pensioners before you became one?
We have had years in this country where parties have not supported social services purely to give reduced tax rates and win votes... so moaning about it now is a little bit like closing the gate after the horse has bolted.

Pretty much like the leaver claiming that all these decisions were made without their say .. did the government actually participate in Europe, did they offer up solutions to the debates .. nah they did sweet fanny Adams, but we all voted for these governments because we got a small tax benefit etc .. hence the leaver statement is only worth a â€œ ah poppet, never mind â€œ
		
Click to expand...

I believe the UK Government have participated in EU matters and have been a constraining hand in many cases.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 8, 2019)

Leftie said:



			And just how much revenue do you think that this will bring in?  Comparatively peanuts methinks 

Better services for pensioners?  Yeh! Right!!
		
Click to expand...

Tax avoidance and evasion are estimated to cost the UK about Â£7bn per year, not too much short of the UKs net contribution to the EU in 2018.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Tax avoidance and evasion are estimated to cost the UK about Â£7bn per year, not too much short of the UKs net contribution to the EU in 2018.
		
Click to expand...

1. See my post re the difference between avoidance and evasion!
2. There have been/are many 'avoidance' schemes that are actually created by government as cost-effective methods of boosting areas of the economy that are deemed 'worth promoting'!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Tax avoidance and evasion are estimated to cost the UK about Â£7bn per year, not too much short of the UKs net contribution to the EU in 2018.
		
Click to expand...

Tax avoidance is not a crime.  Do you pay more tax than you need to, if you had a small business would you employ an accountant to advise and minimise your tax bill or would you pay as much as you possibly could.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Tax avoidance is not a crime.  Do you pay more tax than you need to, if you had a small business would you employ an accountant to advise and minimise your tax bill or would you pay as much as you possibly could.
		
Click to expand...

Forget the 'small'!

If you run a large business, you are possibly/probably breaking the law if you DON'T minimise tax!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Forget the 'small'!

If you run a large business, you are possibly/probably breaking the law if you DON'T minimise tax!
		
Click to expand...

How can you break the law by NOT doing something thatâ€™s NOT ILLEGAL.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			How can you break the law by NOT doing something thatâ€™s NOT ILLEGAL.
		
Click to expand...

Because, under certain circumstances, it IS illegal!


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			How can you break the law by NOT doing something thatâ€™s NOT ILLEGAL.
		
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Wild uneducated guess, if you are answerable to shareholders and you are failing to maximise their benefit then could that be a failure of a duty in company law?


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## IanM (Sep 9, 2019)

So, the Remainers in Parliament want the PM to negotiate by, â€œremoving any leaver he has to negotiate!â€

Actually, they just want to stay in and are doing everything to make sure we do


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 9, 2019)

Latest  Survation poll has Leave/No Deal at 22%
Trying to ruin the UK to please less than a quarter of mainly English  right wing extremists is BJ's  plan


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## IanM (Sep 9, 2019)

88% of stats are made up on the spot...

Trying to find anyone quoting 22% saying Leave.  Failing so far.  Wonder why Boris is so keen on a GE if so few back him?  Even bbc have him miles head of the IRA/Hamas Candidate

Or, Are you saying only 22% want No Deal?


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## patricks148 (Sep 9, 2019)

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...jNuV7cdk6nCmyw27LMiYBrZEk5XU091AN3-vOex10tfBU

easy to see why some of the hard brixiters are so keen to leave the EU


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## Hitdaball (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Those who deem it worth their while to utilise 'tax avoidance' schemes.

Note: 'Tax Avoidance' is perfectly legal - unless/until found to be illegal. Tax evasion, on the other hand, is always illegal!
		
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At which point did I say tax avoidance isnâ€™t legal?


SocketRocket said:



			Tax avoidance is not a crime.  Do you pay more tax than you need to, if you had a small business would you employ an accountant to advise and minimise your tax bill or would you pay as much as you possibly could.
		
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I didnâ€™t say anywhere that tax avoidance was a crime, try to play the ball not the man once in while.

It looks like you are not fussed about it, fair enough I wouldnâ€™t expect anything different to be honest.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...jNuV7cdk6nCmyw27LMiYBrZEk5XU091AN3-vOex10tfBU

easy to see why some of the hard brixiters are so keen to leave the EU
		
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I posted that link a while ago  , it was ignored then and it will likely be ignored now.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			What point are you trying to prove?  

That you either  have enough wealth to benefit from tax evasion or you just donâ€™t care about those who do?
		
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I wish.  I'm just after clarification.  Remainers are always asking for proof/facts/figures so I'm sure you could put more detail on the subject.


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## Mudball (Sep 9, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			At this moment in time I think a GE will give a *very* clear mandate to Boris to No Deal. The clue is Corbyn, B.Liar and all the rest running scared of it!
		
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Really!! T-May thought of that idea too.. and then lost her majority.  GE does not solve anything 
1) Tory majority (unlikely).. in theory allows BoJo to go ahead. BUT some of the Tories donâ€™t want no deal so, it is unlikely to go ahead 

2) hung parliament (highly likely).. situation does not change and itâ€™s just musical chairs 

3) Labour majority (unlikely).. does anyone know what it stands for? So no progress 

â€” 
On the other hand, do a Ref 2 .. i know folks will say it is splitting Leave vote.. so alternate suggestions 

Q1) do you want to Stay or Leave 

In or Out 

Q2) if you choose Leave, how should we leave

Current WA or No-Deal 

Then follow that with an information campaign on benefits/drawbacks of Staying, current WA or No Deal ..  letâ€™s have an informed campaign not fear, stockpile and poo-pile


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

No mention on the BBC Breakfast programme at present on the EU's position on leaving on the 31st.  Rather strange as it was seen as "news" on other media outlets.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Really!! T-May thought of that idea too.. and then lost her majority.  GE does not solve anything
1) Tory majority (unlikely).. in theory allows BoJo to go ahead. BUT some of the Tories donâ€™t want no deal so, it is unlikely to go ahead

2) hung parliament (highly likely).. situation does not change and itâ€™s just musical chairs

3) Labour majority (unlikely).. does anyone know what it stands for? So no progress

â€”
On the other hand, do a Ref 2 .. i know folks will say it is splitting Leave vote.. so alternate suggestions

Q1) do you want to Stay or Leave

In or Out

Q2) if you choose Leave, how should we leave

Current WA or No-Deal

Then follow that with an information campaign on benefits/drawbacks of Staying, current WA or No Deal ..  letâ€™s have an informed campaign not fear, stockpile and poo-pile
		
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How will a referendum solve the fact that the Gov or the opposition has no majority in Parliament and would not be able to get any legislation through parliament.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I wish.  I'm just after clarification.  Remainers are always asking for proof/facts/figures so I'm sure you could put more detail on the subject.
		
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I guess you will be delighted then with the detail provided whilst you slept your meds off. ðŸ˜¬


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			I guess you will be delighted then with the detail provided whilst you slept your meds off. ðŸ˜¬
		
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So that's your response when asked for the facts and you call me a troll. Good to know.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 9, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Really!! T-May thought of that idea too.. and then lost her majority.  GE does not solve anything
1) Tory majority (unlikely).. in theory allows BoJo to go ahead. BUT some of the Tories donâ€™t want no deal so, it is unlikely to go ahead

2) hung parliament (highly likely).. situation does not change and itâ€™s just musical chairs

3) Labour majority (unlikely).. does anyone know what it stands for? So no progress

â€”
On the other hand, do a Ref 2 .. i know folks will say it is splitting Leave vote.. so alternate suggestions

Q1) do you want to Stay or Leave

In or Out

Q2) if you choose Leave, how should we leave

Current WA or No-Deal

Then follow that with an information campaign on benefits/drawbacks of Staying, current WA or No Deal ..  letâ€™s have an informed campaign not fear, stockpile and poo-pile
		
Click to expand...


With the way the MPs have been behaving it is impossible to predict accurately how the public will vote but with the Conservatives nailing its colours to the mast it will attract most of the leavers... up north in areas that would never vote conservative I think The Brexit party will do well. Leading to a coalition of the Toryâ€™s and Brexiters. 
The remainers vote will go where?  Labour? Er not sure, Lib Demâ€™s? Maybe.


As for your Referendum idea itâ€™s all a bit DEJA-POO...that feeling you have heard this crap before! ðŸ’©


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## woody69 (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I wish.  I'm just after clarification.  Remainers are always asking for proof/facts/figures so I'm sure you could put more detail on the subject.
		
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What detail do you require? The full directive is here - http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-6661-2017-INIT/en/pdf if you wish to read it.

And here is a summary on the Government website - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...companies-and-eu-anti-tax-avoidance-directive 

The objective of the directive is to ensure that corporations are paying their fair share of tax


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Tax avoidance and evasion are estimated to cost the UK about Â£7bn per year, not too much short of the UKs net contribution to the EU in 2018.
		
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How much of that Â£7 billion is tax evasion and how much is tax avoidance? With the avoidance part being totally legal it's only the money from the evasion that is important. If Â£6.5 billion is from avoidance then it's only Â£0.5 billion that the government could actually benefit from to improve services.

And even using your figure Â£7 billion, while it might look like a big number, in the grand scheme of things when you look at the budget for the NHS being Â£134 billion this year it's really not that much. Take out the legal avoidance part of your number and it's even less.


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## User62651 (Sep 9, 2019)

So today it becomes UK law that we cant leave with No Deal from EU on 31/10, yes?

So if an A50 extension is vetoed by France and so is not granted by EU what happens then? Are we out with No Deal (illegal?) or revoke A50 and stay in (legal?).

Maybe Macron figures if he forces the issue by vetoing an extension and Boris can't get a GE before 31/10 UKs only legal position is revoke A50?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Wild uneducated guess, if you are answerable to shareholders and you are failing to maximise their benefit then could that be a failure of a duty in company law?
		
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Yes see that but would it be illegal?
Surely something perfectly legal dosnt become illegal because you dont do it.
That just dosnt sound right.
But our tax laws are a minefield.


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## chrisd (Sep 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So today it becomes UK law that we cant leave with No Deal from EU on 31/10, yes?

So if an A50 extension is vetoed by France and so is not granted by EU what happens then? Are we out with No Deal (illegal?) or revoke A50 and stay in (legal?).

Maybe Macron figures if he forces the issue by vetoing an extension and Boris can't get a GE before 31/10 UKs only legal position is revoke A50?
		
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I'd think that the action of others (Macron) would nullify the new law, if Boris cant get a deal or an extension it cant render him liable to imprisonment surely


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So today it becomes UK law that we cant leave with No Deal from EU on 31/10, yes?

So if an A50 extension is vetoed by France and so is not granted by EU what happens then? Are we out with No Deal (illegal?) or revoke A50 and stay in (legal?).

Maybe Macron figures if he forces the issue by vetoing an extension and Boris can't get a GE before 31/10 UKs only legal position is revoke A50?
		
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That is not going to go down well with 52% of the people.
Being forced to stay against our will is not on.

But what I expected from an unelected committee.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So today it becomes UK law that we cant leave with No Deal from EU on 31/10, yes?

So if an A50 extension is vetoed by France and so is not granted by EU what happens then? Are we out with No Deal (illegal?) or revoke A50 and stay in (legal?).

Maybe Macron figures if he forces the issue by vetoing an extension and Boris can't get a GE before 31/10 UKs only legal position is revoke A50?
		
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But that doesn't take account of previous EU legislation which had been passed in law that we leave on the 31st Oct.  Getting better than "House of Cards".


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			That is not going to go down well with 52% of the people.
Being forced to stay against our will is not on.

But what I expected from an unelected committee.
		
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Iâ€™m one of the 52%! Please donâ€™t speak on my behalf, I donâ€™t believe Iâ€™m being forced to stay against my will, I actually believe I am being forced to accept a No Deal by the PMâ€™s behaviour and Iâ€™d rather stay in till a Deal is sorted.


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## woody69 (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			That is not going to go down well with 52% of the people.
Being forced to stay against our will is not on.

But what I expected from an unelected committee.
		
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You mean the 52% of the people who voted to leave, rather than 52% of the people right? So approximately 27% of the population, but actually probably a little less due to the fact the vote was 3 years ago now and a proportion of those people are probably dead. 

Who is this un-elected committee you mention though?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

One of the reasons I voted leave was that we would take control of our own law making.
But after watching this bunch of third rate politicians and the chaos they have caused (both sides).
I find I am wondering if they are capable of governing a country.

The EU must be sitting there shaking their heads.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m one of the 52%! Please donâ€™t speak on my behalf, I donâ€™t believe Iâ€™m being forced to stay against my will, I actually believe I am being forced to accept a No Deal by the PMâ€™s behaviour and Iâ€™d rather stay in till a Deal is sorted.
		
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I never mentioned any deal.
If you voted to leave you are one of the 52%


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## chrisd (Sep 9, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You mean the 52% of the people who voted to leave, rather than 52% of the people right? So approximately 27% of the population, but actually probably a little less due to the fact the vote was 3 years ago now and a proportion of those people are probably dead.

Who is this un-elected committee you mention though?
		
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100% of people eligible to vote could easily have popped down to the polling station and popped their x wherever they wanted, if they chose not to then they have to be ignored, yes, people have died but then others who may have voted to leave have surpassed the voting age. The vote was a simple majority one and that is that!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			You could always have this take on it https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/08/no-c...t-delay-as-things-stand-france-says-10705599/

Click to expand...

Yes - fine - but what did the French minister actually say.  

Because I think that he said what he did in the context of 'if nothing changes'.  

So stating that he said that the French will not approve an extension when the request is made could be interpreted as being a little bit disingenuous.

And that is why I asked what he actually said.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Wild uneducated guess, if you are answerable to shareholders and you are failing to maximise their benefit then could that be a failure of a duty in company law?
		
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If shareholders don't like the approach of management then they can vote them out. Some have a clearly ethical approach that will not maximise benefit but will help everyone sleep easily at night.

Companies do not have to find every loophole. Some decide to take a moral responsibility for the country that they are in and pay taxes in a standard way. Others decide to open shell companies, move money around in the guise of management fees, companies within companies etc and avoid every tax they can do. Have a google for Starbucks in Europe if you want to get really annoyed. I believe at one stage 7 Starbucks incorporated companies, could be more, were involved in buying, selling, moving coffee beans that never actually moved and never left the Starbucks empire. All in the name of tax efficiency (call it that if you like but I know what I call it)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Seems like it might be gaining momentum @SILH https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...delay-unless-deadlock-is-broken-a4231666.html, I wonder if it makes the BBC 2200 hrs news.
		
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And an extension granted to facilitate a General Election is likely to be considered by the EU as something that might possibly break the deadlock...?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You mean the 52% of the people who voted to leave, rather than 52% of the people right? So approximately 27% of the population, but actually probably a little less due to the fact the vote was 3 years ago now and a proportion of those people are probably dead.

Who is this un-elected committee you mention though?
		
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I mean 52% of the people who could be bothered to vote!

A lot of remain voters must have died as well for clarity.
How the young ones who are eligible now would vote is a guess.

The top people in the EU are unelected (committee may be wrong word) I never got a vote for Tusk ,Junker , etc.


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## IanM (Sep 9, 2019)

It might take armed rebellion to leave the EU    Clearing voting out of this highly undemocratic wannabe empire doesn't count!


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## User62651 (Sep 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'd think that the action of others (Macron) would nullify the new law, if Boris cant get a deal or an extension it cant render him liable to imprisonment surely
		
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Agree with the last part but the first part I have no idea, it's like a new UK law going up against an existing but different EU/UK law.


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## woody69 (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			One of the reasons I voted leave was that we would take control of our own law making.
		
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Interesting. Can you tell me which law that we have forced upon us by the EU that you disagreed with, or is it more to do with any possible future laws that the UK would have to implement that was your concern? Do you believe that the EU would implement a law that was detrimental to the UK that we would vote against?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I never mentioned any deal.
If you voted to leave you are one of the 52%
		
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But I want the action they are taking to happen, ie, I want the extension.
You stated the 52% are not happy about being forced to stay!


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## Beezerk (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			How will a referendum solve the fact that the Gov or the opposition has no majority in Parliament and would not be able to get any legislation through parliament.
		
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Because it may turn around the result he doesn't like.


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## patricks148 (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I mean 52% of the people who could be bothered to vote!

A lot of remain voters must have died as well for clarity.
How the young ones who are eligible now would vote is a guess.

The top people in the EU are unelected (committee may be wrong word) I never got a vote for Tusk ,Junker , etc.
		
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thats funny i didn't get to vote for Boris


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## woody69 (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I mean 52% of the people who could be bothered to vote!

A lot of remain voters must have died as well for clarity.
How the young ones who are eligible now would vote is a guess.

The top people in the EU are unelected (committee may be wrong word) I never got a vote for Tusk ,Junker , etc.
		
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Yes, I am sure some remain voters have died as well, although if you look at the vote breakdown purely on the age groups I think it would be safe to assume you would expect more of the older generation who were more likely to vote leave to have passed away.

And yes, looking at polling data for younger generations is technically a guess, but the results are generally consistent that most of them would not vote to leave.

Ah OK, you are referring to the EU Commission. Have a read of this - http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Because it may turn around the result he doesn't like.
		
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Iâ€™d be happy with another referendum, only 2 choices though, Deal or No Deal.
There 100% shouldnâ€™t be an option to remain.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But I want the action they are taking to happen, ie, I want the extension.
You stated the 52% are not happy about being forced to stay!
		
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Thatâ€™s really splitting hairs isnâ€™t it.
Do you just fancy a pedantic argument.
52% is a ball park figure used by everyone on this subject, it might be 51.999999999999999999999999999% if your not in.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You mean the 52% of the people who voted to leave, rather than 52% of the people right? *So approximately 27% of the population,* but actually probably a little less due to the fact the vote was 3 years ago now and a proportion of those people are probably dead.
		
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Which is still a bigger number than the percentage that voted remain. 

Swings and roundabouts really. Ardent remain voters often talk about the 48% that didn't vote to leave, that their opinions need to be taken into account and compromise is needed but when talking about leave voters switch to use the percentage of total eligible voters that voted leave. 

It seems a bit hypocritical to me. (<---not your post but in general terms)


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			At which point did I say tax avoidance isnâ€™t legal?
...
		
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At what point did I suggest you did?


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## woody69 (Sep 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			100% of people eligible to vote could easily have popped down to the polling station and popped their x wherever they wanted, if they chose not to then they have to be ignored, yes, people have died but then others who may have voted to leave have surpassed the voting age. The vote was a simple majority one and that is that!
		
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I'm not disagreeing with any of that. I was just pointing out it's not 52% of the people and it was over 3 years ago.


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## Beezerk (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™d be happy with another referendum, only 2 choices though, Deal or No Deal.
There 100% shouldnâ€™t be an option to remain.
		
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100% mate, we finally agree on something ðŸ˜†


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thatâ€™s really splitting hairs isnâ€™t it.
Do you just fancy a pedantic argument.
52% is a ball park figure used by everyone on this subject, it might be 51.999999999999999999999999999% if your not in.
		
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No itâ€™s not pedantic at all, the Leavers like to throw the 48% remark, â€œyou lost get over itâ€ and itâ€™s just as bad for Leavers to believe that all 52% support the current PMâ€™s present course of action.


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## woody69 (Sep 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Which is still a bigger number than the percentage that voted remain.

Swings and roundabouts really. Ardent remain voters often talk about the 48% that didn't vote to leave, that their opinions need to be taken into account and compromise is needed but when talking about leave voters switch to use the percentage of total eligible voters that voted leave.

It seems a bit hypocritical to me. (<---not your post but in general terms)
		
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Yep, it was about 2% more than those who voted to remain in terms of the whole population. 25% remain versus 27% leave versus 48% abstain / not eligible.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			thats funny i didn't get to vote for Boris

Click to expand...

Unless the PM is your local M.P. nobody gets to vote for a PM.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No itâ€™s not pedantic at all, the Leavers like to throw the 48% remark, â€œyou lost get over itâ€ and itâ€™s just as bad for Leavers to believe that all 52% support the current PMâ€™s present course of action.
		
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Once again I never mentioned that only that the EU could use tactics to force us to stay !
Itâ€™s coming down to who has the best poker face , thatâ€™s no way to negotiate something like this.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			thats funny i didn't get to vote for Boris

Click to expand...


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## drdel (Sep 9, 2019)

The last couple of page proves how agile golfers can be!

Just look how many have been 'dancing on a pinhead' by revisiting the 2016 result


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## drdel (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



View attachment 28182

Click to expand...

He is asking for a GE !!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			The last couple of page proves how agile golfers can be!

Just look how many have been 'dancing on a pinhead' by revisiting the 2016 result 

Click to expand...

The 2016 result should now be irrelevant, the discussion should be about how we leave and thatâ€™s all.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 9, 2019)

Just a thought that came up this weekend.....If being in the EU was so fantastic, why have we got food banks?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Yes, I am sure some remain voters have died as well, although if you look at the vote breakdown purely on the age groups I think it would be safe to assume you would expect more of the older generation who were more likely to vote leave to have passed away.

And yes, looking at polling data for younger generations is technically a guess, but the results are generally consistent that most of them would not vote to leave.

Ah OK, you are referring to the EU Commission. Have a read of this - http://www.democraticaudit.com/2016/06/23/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/

Click to expand...

I see your point .
But this has took so long nobody really knows the accurate numbers anymore.
Something needs to break on both sides 
But all this legal wrangling isnâ€™t doing any good on both sides.

Letâ€™s be honest the MEP s we have there are there to protest nothing more.
Thatâ€™s how the public here see our MPs.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			He is asking for a GE !!
		
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He categorically stated he had no intention of calling for a GE when first elected and his reasons now are totally different, just like every other politician heâ€™s changed his mind to suit himself.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Just a thought that came up this weekend.....If being in the EU was so fantastic, why have we got food banks?
		
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Because of UK Government policies, if itâ€™s that bad why have we got more millionaires than weâ€™ve ever had?


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## chrisd (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No itâ€™s not pedantic at all, the Leavers like to throw the 48% remark, â€œyou lost get over itâ€ and itâ€™s just as bad for Leavers to believe that all 52% support the current PMâ€™s present course of action.
		
Click to expand...

Just as its bad to assume that the 48% support the total lack of democracy being shown


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Wild uneducated guess, if you are answerable to shareholders and you are failing to maximise their benefit then could that be a failure of a duty in company law?
		
Click to expand...

Spot on!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Just as its bad to assume that the 48% support the total lack of democracy being shown
		
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What total lack of democracy?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No itâ€™s not pedantic at all, the Leavers like to throw the 48% remark, â€œyou lost get over itâ€ and itâ€™s just as bad for Leavers to believe that all 52% support the current PMâ€™s present course of action.
		
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I agree with you .
Itâ€™s 52% of people who could be bothered to vote. They will have different views on an exit of course.
And 48% who bothered to vote.
Most of the population canâ€™t be ar%# and in or out it makes no difference to them.
This is shown in every election.
But the exit strategy is a mess and changes with every legal challenge/ amendment tabled.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar voiced what Brexiteers in the UK have been saying for a while. If the UK doesnâ€™t leave the EU on 31st October, itâ€™s unlikely to leave at all.
_â€œIf it comes to a request for an extension, I think the vast majority of countries around the table would prefer that there not be an extension. We would like to see this dealt with. If the UK is leaving it should leave on 31st October.â€_​


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And an extension granted to facilitate a General Election is likely to be considered by the EU as something that might possibly break the deadlock...?
		
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Please explain how, the EU gave us "The Deal" which Parliament rejected, how is the deadlock going to be achieved. In the first thread you amongst others were poo pohing the idea that the EU would change its mind when suggested by leavers. What's changed.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



View attachment 28182

Click to expand...

Is anyone here surprised by a politician saying one thing is wrong and then doing it themselves..


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			That is not going to go down well with 52% of the people.
Being forced to stay against our will is not on.

*But what I expected from an unelected committee.*

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All those involved in making THAT decision WERE elected!


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## chrisd (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What total lack of democracy?
		
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sort of easy really Paul - we voted to leave and the remainers are doing their best to thwart it


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## robinthehood (Sep 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			sort of easy really Paul - we voted to leave and the remainers are doing their best to thwart it
		
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Not true, it was thwarted when bojo and mogo voted against the Tory  party , otherwise we'd be out by now and able to move on to phase 2. 
The remainers are simply exercising their democratic rights.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

If a GE is called for November and the EU reject an extension and we leave on 31st Oct, Which party would it benefit? In theory Farage and his cronies will completely disappear, I canâ€™t see the Lib Dems campaigning on a rejoining the EU ticket and god knows how the tories and Labour will fair.
Could it actually increase the chance of a Labour win? They could get backing from those Labour supporters who voted Leave whilst at the same time blaming the tories for 3 years of turmoil.
Will the tories be able to unite by saying the EU forced the No Deal while they really wanted a deal.
We could be back to a 2 horse race by default.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			sort of easy really Paul - we voted to leave and the remainers are doing their best to thwart it
		
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Some leavers have as well mate, if the hardliners had supported TM we might of been out by now.


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## Beezerk (Sep 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Not true, it was thwarted when bojo and mogo voted against the Tory  party , otherwise we'd be out by now and able to move on to phase 2.
The remainers are simply exercising their democratic rights.
		
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And Labour stating they would vote down "any deal" proposed by the government. Don't think that helped either ðŸ¤”


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## robinthehood (Sep 9, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Interesting. Can you tell me which law that we have forced upon us by the EU that you disagreed with, or is it more to do with any possible future laws that the UK would have to implement that was your concern? Do you believe that the EU would implement a law that was detrimental to the UK that we would vote against?
		
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I asked a similar question about people's top 10 EU enforced laws they are looking forward to being revoked.  I'm still waiting for an answer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			And Labour stating they would vote down "any deal" proposed by the government. Don't think that helped either ðŸ¤”
		
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Didnâ€™t help, but was irrelevant if TM had kept her majority together.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If a GE is called for November and the EU reject an extension and we leave on 31st Oct, Which party would it benefit? In theory Farage and his cronies will completely disappear, I canâ€™t see the Lib Dems campaigning on a rejoining the EU ticket and god knows how the tories and Labour will fair.
Could it actually increase the chance of a Labour win? They could get backing from those Labour supporters who voted Leave whilst at the same time blaming the tories for 3 years of turmoil.
Will the tories be able to unite by saying the EU forced the No Deal while they really wanted a deal.
We could be back to a 2 horse race by default.
		
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Personally I think it would give Labour the edge because the turnout will be low which gives labour an advantage. There will be many out there that, after this mess, won't bother to vote again IMO.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I asked a similar question about people's top 10 EU enforced laws they are looking forward to being revoked.  I'm still waiting for an answer.
		
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Not true


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## chrisd (Sep 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Not true, it was thwarted when bojo and mogo voted against the Tory  party , otherwise we'd be out by now and able to move on to phase 2.
The remainers are simply exercising their democratic rights.
		
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Only partly true Paddy. They voted against a bad deal with a wish to get a better one (which many agreed with) and then got in a position to potentially deliver a better one and remainers are trying to usurp it


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## robinthehood (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not true
		
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Very true, who's top 10 have I missed ?


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## robinthehood (Sep 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Only partly true Paddy. They voted against a bad deal with a wish to get a better one (which many agreed with) and then got in a position to potentially deliver a better one and remainers are trying to usurp it
		
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Why do keep calling me paddy ? I'm not Irish you know.


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## chrisd (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Some leavers have as well mate, if the hardliners had supported TM we might of been out by now.
		
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Maybe so Paul, but with a deal that was so bad it would have been better to stay in


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Please explain how, the EU gave us "The Deal" which Parliament rejected, how is the deadlock going to be achieved. In the first thread you amongst others were poo pohing the idea that the EU would change its mind when suggested by leavers. What's changed.
		
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Simply saying that if the EU think that if an extension accommodates a GE; and they know that a GE might change something; and that a GE might lead to a further referendum or change in stance in respect of TM's red lines - then they'll be more inclined to grant the extension.


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## robinthehood (Sep 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Maybe so Paul, but with a deal that was so bad it would have been better to stay in
		
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The deal was just stage 1.... we could then negotiate future state.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Very true, who's top 10 have I missed ?
		
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Never gave you ten, I gave you one. I can only give examples in areas that I have knowledge. I doubt many go trawling through EU legislation unless they need to.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

more labour voters than tory rejected the deal

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46885027


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## Fade and Die (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™d be happy with another referendum, only 2 choices though, Deal or No Deal.
There 100% shouldnâ€™t be an option to remain.
		
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This is the only legitimate question for a 2nd referendum. Mrs Mays deal or WTO deal. Parliament could not answer it so ask the people.


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## robinthehood (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Never gave you ten, I gave you one. I can only give examples in areas that I have knowledge. I doubt many go trawling through EU legislation unless they need to.
		
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Then my question hasn't been answered has it. I keep hearing we are taking back control, making our own laws etc...But no one can tell me what these laws are . It doesn't make sense.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Simply saying that if the EU think that if an extension accommodates a GE; and they know that a GE might change something; and that a GE might lead to a further referendum or change in stance in respect of TM's red lines - then they'll be more inclined to grant the extension.
		
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Can you provide a link where the EU has recently stated it would rescind its current leave legislation in favour of a GE.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™d be happy with another referendum, only 2 choices though, Deal or No Deal.
There 100% shouldnâ€™t be an option to remain.
		
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Can we get Noel Edmonds to run this


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## Hitdaball (Sep 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			How much of that Â£7 billion is tax evasion and how much is tax avoidance? With the avoidance part being totally legal it's only the money from the evasion that is important. If Â£6.5 billion is from avoidance then it's only Â£0.5 billion that the government could actually benefit from to improve services.

And even using your figure Â£7 billion, while it might look like a big number, in the grand scheme of things when you look at the budget for the NHS being Â£134 billion this year it's really not that much. Take out the legal avoidance part of your number and it's even less.
		
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It was about 50/50 on the source I looked at. I appreciate it isnâ€™t as much as it sounds ðŸ˜†. Same as the net EU spend.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			So that's your response when asked for the facts and you call me a troll. Good to know.
		
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Canâ€™t beat thin skinned trolls can you.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			more labour voters than tory rejected the deal

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46885027

Click to expand...

But would of still been irrelevant if TM had got support from her side.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I asked a similar question about people's top 10 EU enforced laws they are looking forward to being revoked.  I'm still waiting for an answer.
		
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Problem with your question is that the EU laws that I think that most folks are actually _aware _of are in respect of regulations related to protections afforded to individuals; our employment and what we buy, eat and drink; and protections for such as the environment.  But apparently we don't want the EU laws aimed at coordinating such things across borders to ensure, or at best aim for, consistently of approach and application. 

We could of course have come up with these things outside of the auspices of the EU - but they are hardly laws worthy of being revoked for the sake of it. And if in leaving under a No Deal we _do _revoke them, then will the UK replace them like-for-like?  Well if Johnson said 'Yes' to that - I'm afraid I'd take that as, at best, a 'Maybe'.

Someone else in charge then I might have some trust and belief and so be more receptive.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			All those involved in making THAT decision WERE elected!
		
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this is the post I answered



maxfli65 said:



			So today it becomes UK law that we cant leave with No Deal from EU on 31/10, yes?

So if an A50 extension is vetoed by France and so is not granted by EU what happens then? Are we out with No Deal (illegal?) or revoke A50 and stay in (legal?).

Maybe Macron figures if he forces the issue by vetoing an extension and Boris can't get a GE before 31/10 UKs only legal position is revoke A50?
		
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I donâ€™t remember having a vote for Macron but he can influence the outcome single handed.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Then my question hasn't been answered has it. I keep hearing we are taking back control, making our own laws etc...But no one can tell me what these laws are . It doesn't make sense.
		
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Well any future laws we make would not need EU approval or have to meet ECHR standards .
Whether thatâ€™s good or bad remains to be seen.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Well any future laws we make would not need EU approval...
		
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Twaddle!


clubchamp98 said:



			Well any future laws we make would...have to meet ECHR standards .
...
		
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Absolute Twaddle!
ECHR is nothing to do with the EU!


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			ECHR is nothing to do with the EU!
		
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Do you not have to abide by the ECHR if you are a member of the EU? It is one of the rules I think.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			It was about 50/50 on the source I looked at. I appreciate it isnâ€™t as much as it sounds ðŸ˜†. Same as the net EU spend.
		
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So around Â£3.5 billion in tax evasion which is the bit that the government could claw back to spend elsewhere. Unless or until they change the rules on those areas of avoidance that are currently perfectly legal.

According to Full Fact the UK contribution to the EU in 2018 was Â£17.4 billion. We then get the rebate of Â£4.2 billion leaving Â£13.2 billion that is our actual contribution. The EU spent Â£4.3 billion on "public sector" in the UK which leaves Â£8.9 billion as our net contribution. 

Which means that your original statement "not too much short of the UKs net contribution to the EU in 2018" was disingenuous at best or deliberately misleading or a lie at worst. The Â£3.5 billion is in fact just under 40% of our net EU membership costs or Â£5.4 billion short rather than "not too much short of".

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/


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## woody69 (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Well any future laws we make would not need EU approval or have to meet ECHR standards .
Whether thatâ€™s good or bad remains to be seen.
		
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The ECHR protects the human rights of people in countries that belong to the Council of Europe, which is a completely different organisation to the EU. The UK will still be signed up to the ECHR when we leave the EU. I think you got your ECHR mixed up with your ECJ


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!

Absolute Twaddle!
ECHR is nothing to do with the EU!
		
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Any future laws we make would not need anybodyâ€™s elseâ€™s approval.


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## woody69 (Sep 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So today it becomes UK law that we cant leave with No Deal from EU on 31/10, yes?

So if an A50 extension is vetoed by France and so is not granted by EU what happens then? Are we out with No Deal (illegal?) or revoke A50 and stay in (legal?).

Maybe Macron figures if he forces the issue by vetoing an extension and Boris can't get a GE before 31/10 UKs only legal position is revoke A50?
		
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The law doesn't prevent no-deal. It provides that the PM must ask for an extension, and stipulates what happens depending on the length of said extension.

It is not possible for the UK to legislate against no-deal and for that legislation to supersede art.50. EU law takes precedence and the only three options available at any given time - under EU law - are (1) leave with an agreement, (2) extend by agreement, or (3) leave on no-deal if neither of 1 or 2 happen by the next deadline.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

woody69 said:



			The ECHR protects the human rights of people in countries that belong to the Council of Europe, which is a completely different organisation to the EU. The UK will still be signed up to the ECHR when we leave the EU. I think you got your ECHR mixed up with your ECJ
		
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I thought to be in the EU you had to abide by ECHR jurisdictions.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

woody69 said:



			The law doesn't prevent no-deal. It provides that the PM must ask for an extension, and stipulates what happens depending on the length of said extension.

It is not possible for the UK to legislate against no-deal and for that legislation to supersede art.50. EU law takes precedence and the only three options available at any given time - under EU law - are (1) leave with an agreement, (2) extend by agreement, or (3) leave on no-deal if neither of 1 or 2 happen by the next deadline.
		
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or (4) Revoke Article 50.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do you not have to abide by the ECHR if you are a member of the EU? It is one of the rules I think.
		
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I believe you mean/are referring to the ECJ (an EU body). ECHR was established in 1949 long before EU!

ECHR makes rulings (solely about Human Rights) for members of The Council of Europe (47 members). ECJ makes rulings (about any/all EU Law) for members of the EU (28 currrent member).


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## drdel (Sep 9, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			This is the only legitimate question for a 2nd referendum. Mrs Mays deal or WTO deal. Parliament could not answer it so ask the people.
		
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McDonnell has declared 'No Deal' will not be an option if they offer a re-run referendum - but they may of course change their mind !


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Any future laws we make would not need anybodyâ€™s elseâ€™s approval.
		
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They don't need anyone else's approval now!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			They don't need anyone else's approval now!
		
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So say the UK government bring a law in that the rest of Europe donâ€™t agree with we can just do it.
And it wouldnâ€™t be challenged or changed in the ECJ.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			McDonnell has declared 'No Deal' will not be an option if they offer a re-run referendum - but they may of course change their mind !
		
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In that case if leave won we would be back where we are now.
Whatâ€™s the point of that?

But if Remain won Aaah 
Most leavers imo want a deal itâ€™s the politics thatâ€™s the problem.
Back to a trading bloc would be fine without the politics.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			So say the UK government bring a law in that the rest of Europe donâ€™t agree with we can just do it.
...
		
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Yes! 


clubchamp98 said:



			...
And it wouldnâ€™t be challenged or changed in the ECJ.
		
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Depends!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

Parliament seems to have been making loads of laws over the years since the referendum, and I am not aware of the heavy and restrictive hand of the EU interfering or stopping us.  Indeed another Bill is likely to receive Royal Assent today making it into Law - and I doubt it's drafting or passage through parliament has been controlled in any way by the EU.  But that is what a sovereign parliament like the UK's can do.  And oddly enough we haven't left yet.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yes!

Depends!
		
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Could we bring in a law that demanded only straight bananas were sold?

Or even a law that said we had to send smoked fish through the post with an ice-pack? (asking for a friend).


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## drdel (Sep 9, 2019)

So two Heads of State (Johnson and Varadkar) meet but one says I can't do any deals, even if I want to avoid damage to my own Irish citizens, because I am answerable to a negotiator I didn't appoint !


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Could we bring in a law that demanded only straight bananas were sold?

Or even a law that said we had to send smoked fish through the post with an ice-pack? (asking for a friend). 

Click to expand...

Two references to examples of anti-EU propoganda that are, for different reasons, complete twaddle!


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## chrisd (Sep 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Why do keep calling me paddy ? I'm not Irish you know.
		
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I think you know the answer


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## woody69 (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Never gave you ten, I gave you one. I can only give examples in areas that I have knowledge. I doubt many go trawling through EU legislation unless they need to.
		
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Was your example with regards to where you said "EU procurement legislation has had a negative affect on small businesses in my area including sending some out of business."?

Can you tell me how the legislation put businesses out of business? From what I have read, the legislation should have meant that for suppliers the process of bidding for public contracts should be quicker and less costly, enabling them to compete more effectively? Is that not the case? Is it more the regulations appear to prevent the UK Government "buying British"? Is that criticism not off-set though by the fact that UK companies can bid for lucrative government contracts in other member states on a level playing field?

I'd be interested to learn more.


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## robinthehood (Sep 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I think you know the answer
		
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No and as pointed out by the mods, take it up with them and don't post in threads  if you have some wacky a accusations to make.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Two references to examples of anti-EU propoganda that are, for different reasons, complete twaddle!
		
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Yep, that was my point. With the first one never having been an EU law and the second one actually being a UK law that wasn't imposed by the EU.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

I mentioned the other day about some of my fears reference a No Deal.

Accepting some of the fears could be unfounded or scaremongering, I thought I would share this particular one.

https://e-surgery.com/brexit-crisis...A-JQsmbbns3aUChEAj3jtkl20kGBwEEg6g0dYxqn0tuHs


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Was your example with regards to where you said "EU procurement legislation has had a negative affect on small businesses in my area including sending some out of business."?

Can you tell me how the legislation put businesses out of business? From what I have read, the legislation should have meant that for suppliers the process of bidding for public contracts should be quicker and less costly, enabling them to compete more effectively? Is that not the case? Is it more the regulations appear to prevent the UK Government "buying British"? Is that criticism not off-set though by the fact that UK companies can bid for lucrative government contracts in other member states on a level playing field?

I'd be interested to learn more.
		
Click to expand...

Three businesses in Devon I know of could not compete with the amount of admin and bureaucracy required to put a bid in and at the time they were suppliers who provided a very good service. If you haven't got the manpower or ability to put a bid together you can't bid. 2 have now gone and one is smaller than before which had the effect of reducing much needed employment in the county.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I mentioned the other day about some of my fears reference a No Deal.

Accepting some of the fears could be unfounded or scaremongering, I thought I would share this particular one.

https://e-surgery.com/brexit-crisis...A-JQsmbbns3aUChEAj3jtkl20kGBwEEg6g0dYxqn0tuHs

Click to expand...

That seems to be caused by panic buying and stock piling then? Would you agree? If there are shortages, who has them? Someone is stock piling them somewhere they are not being held up in the ports.

This is about the fear of Brexit causing problems. Unfortunately the only way through this is for people to see lorries moving freely.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			So two Heads of State (Johnson and Varadkar) meet but one says I can't do any deals, even if I want to avoid damage to my own Irish citizens, because I am answerable to a negotiator I didn't appoint !
		
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Did you have any say in Johnson's or Varadkar's appointment? I certainly didn't!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Parliament seems to have been making loads of laws over the years since the referendum, and I am not aware of the heavy and restrictive hand of the EU interfering or stopping us.  Indeed another Bill is likely to receive Royal Assent today making it into Law - and I doubt it's drafting or passage through parliament has been controlled in any way by the EU.  But that is what a sovereign parliament like the UK's can do.  And oddly enough we haven't left yet.
		
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I would say the one going through now is massively in the EUs favour.
Why would they interfere.

Just playing Devils Advocate but if we introduced a law saying all French people are banned from coming to the UK.
Stupid I know but do you think the EU would challenge that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That seems to be caused by panic buying and stock piling then? Would you agree? If there are shortages, who has them? Someone is stock piling them somewhere they are not being held up in the ports.

This is about the fear of Brexit causing problems. Unfortunately the only way through this is for people to see lorries moving freely.
		
Click to expand...

But why are they panic buying or stock piling, it could be someone looking to make a quick profit or some other dodgy reason, but neither matter if joe average canâ€™t get them.

It wonâ€™t be helped by the Governments approach to the speculation and uncertainty.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Did you have any say in Johnson's or Varadkar's appointment? I certainly didn't!
		
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Technically yes in Johnsonâ€™s as his party was voted in in the GE.
In which we all have a vote.
But only members of said party vote for the leader.
Nobody votes for a PM unless heâ€™s your local M.P.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But why are they panic buying or stock piling, it could be someone looking to make a quick profit or some other dodgy reason, but neither matter if joe average canâ€™t get them.

It wonâ€™t be helped by the Governments approach to the speculation and uncertainty.
		
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Human nature .
Not helped by all the scare stories. From both sides.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But why are they panic buying or stock piling, it could be someone looking to make a quick profit or some other dodgy reason, but neither matter if joe average canâ€™t get them.

It wonâ€™t be helped by the Governments approach to the speculation and uncertainty.
		
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Why does anyone panic buy? Nearer the time it could be bread, milk, take your pick. I guess the clue is in the title, panic buying. People get irrational and once that spreads it is hard to stop.

I would guess that people can not buy these without prescription, may be wrong there, so the more likely issue is going to be companies building up stocks, possibly to profit from a created shortage. Pretty grim if that is the case.

You are quite right in your comment, if the process was going smoothly this would not happen. We are where we are though.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why does anyone panic buy? Nearer the time it could be bread, milk, take your pick. I guess the clue is in the title, panic buying. People get irrational and once that spreads it is hard to stop.

I would guess that people can not buy these without prescription, may be wrong there, so the more likely issue is going to be companies building up stocks, possibly to profit from a created shortage. Pretty grim if that is the case.

You are quite right in your comment, if the process was going smoothly this would not happen. We are where we are though.
		
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With the prescription price fixed though I canâ€™t see how a drug company could do this they must have a price fixed with the NHS.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

Parliament being prorogued at close of business today.

What the rush?  Why not wait until Thursday which is the last day it can be prorogued.  Why shut parliament down now when there is so much we need clarity and progress on.

We can guess what it might be.   Boris Johnson and DomCum Wormtongue want parliament out of the way so they can get on with their cunning plan.  Brilliant.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Human nature .
Not helped by all the scare stories. From both sides.
		
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Again, how will that help anyone who might not get their medication if the worst case was to happen?

I didnâ€™t realise both sides were putting out scare stories!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why does anyone panic buy? Nearer the time it could be bread, milk, take your pick. I guess the clue is in the title, panic buying. People get irrational and once that spreads it is hard to stop.

I would guess that people can not buy these without prescription, may be wrong there, so the more likely issue is going to be companies building up stocks, possibly to profit from a created shortage. Pretty grim if that is the case.

You are quite right in your comment, if the process was going smoothly this would not happen. We are where we are though.
		
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Youâ€™re correct mate, some of those medications are only available by prescription, itâ€™s not the ill stockpiling.

Maybe Parliament should be bringing in legislation that makes profiteering of a No Deal Brexit a crime.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Again, how will that help anyone who might not get their medication if the worst case was to happen?

I didnâ€™t realise both sides were putting out scare stories!
		
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Well remain are putting shortage fears out.
And leave are saying it will all be ok.
But they are just guessing as no one can say for certain !,thatâ€™s why people are panic buying.

I didnâ€™t say it would help anyone,quite the opposite I would imagine.!


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## woody69 (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Three businesses in Devon I know of could not compete with the amount of admin and bureaucracy required to put a bid in and at the time they were suppliers who provided a very good service. If you haven't got the manpower or ability to put a bid together you can't bid. 2 have now gone and one is smaller than before which had the effect of reducing much needed employment in the county.
		
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That's interesting to hear considering 1 of the major elements of the legislation was supposedly higher efficiency, more eProcurement and easier participation for SMEs with less administrative burden.

I guess with any legislative change, the ability for the businesses to adapt to that change can have a significant impact that isn't considered and hits companies when it is 1st introduced, particularly if a company has been working a certain way for a significant period of time and isn't easily able to change it's approach due to costs, man-power or what have you.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			With the prescription price fixed though I canâ€™t see how a drug company could do this they must have a price fixed with the NHS.
		
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The prescription price is fixed but the drug selling price to the NHS could be anything, hence the need for NICE. Suppliers will have agreed prices but there may be an exceptional circumstances clause or you may have a company who is not a supplier buying up the drug, when stocks are low the NHS has to come to them and the price has to be negotiated from that point. You would hope the last point is a vision of tv fantasy and not reality. There is an element of guesswork in my answers on this, you would hope the NHS have pricing nailed down.

We have a few NHS workers on here. Hopefully one of them can clear up how companies can profit from this when everything really should be wrapped up nice and tight.


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## rudebhoy (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Parliament being prorogued at close of business today.

What the rush?  Why not wait until Thursday which is the last day it can be prorogued.  Why shut parliament down now when there is so much we need clarity and progress on.

We can guess what it might be.   Boris Johnson and DomCum Wormtongue want parliament out of the way so they can get on with their cunning plan.  Brilliant.
		
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So, his excuse for proroguing parliament so was so they could have a Queen's Speech to lay out all the wonderful legislation they were going to bring in over the next 3 years. Obviously that was bollocks, but that's what he said consistently, while denying it was an attempt to force through a no-deal Brexit. Now that everyone accepts there is going to be an election in November, how can he keep using this sham defence?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Parliament being prorogued at close of business today.

What the rush?  Why not wait until Thursday which is the last day it can be prorogued.  Why shut parliament down now when there is so much we need clarity and progress on.

We can guess what it might be.   Boris Johnson and DomCum Wormtongue want parliament out of the way so they can get on with their cunning plan.  Brilliant.
		
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Yes itâ€™s not the way to bring democracy back to our parliament.
Itâ€™s a symptom of the clueless people running this though that they think this needs to be done.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re correct mate, some of those medications are only available by prescription, itâ€™s not the ill stockpiling.

Maybe Parliament should be bringing in legislation that makes profiteering of a No Deal Brexit a crime.
		
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Back to WW2. Private Walker was the racketeer in Dad's Army from memory who would have everything you need, may be we need to dig out the old legislation and dust it off.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would say the one going through now is massively in the EUs favour.
Why would they interfere.

Just playing Devils Advocate but if we introduced a law saying all French people are banned from coming to the UK.
Stupid I know but do you think the EU would challenge that.
		
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Well it would be in contravention of Freedom of Movement UK have signed up to as a member state of the EU and so yes - I suspect that the EU would get involved - maybe also the ECJ.  And I would also suspect that UK would be taken to the ECHR.  

Thing is - it's easy to come up with unrealistic, extreme or daft laws to which the EU and others would say - hang on.  The question is about laws that should be revoked as they were imposed by the EU - and that does rather suggest it relates to stuff already in place.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Technically yes in Johnsonâ€™s as his party was voted in in the GE.
In which we all have a vote.
...
		
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That's about as far removed from me having a vote for him as for the 'unelected bureaucrats' Brexit propagandists (erroneously imo) go on about!
Btw. Johnson wasn't in the frame for being PM at the GE!


clubchamp98 said:



			Nobody votes for a PM unless heâ€™s your local M.P.
		
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Correct! And he's not!
My MP, who I may have voted for, was kicked out of the Party by Johnson! That's something I don't believe should have happened!


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## woody69 (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Parliament being prorogued at close of business today.

What the rush?  Why not wait until Thursday which is the last day it can be prorogued.  Why shut parliament down now when there is so much we need clarity and progress on.

We can guess what it might be.   Boris Johnson and DomCum Wormtongue want parliament out of the way so they can get on with their cunning plan.  Brilliant.
		
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Boris was meant to be scrutinised by the Liaison Committee on Wednesday, which Boris agreed to...but obviously that's now not happening because Parliament is being prorogued today


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			So, his excuse for proroguing parliament so was so they could have a Queen's Speech to lay out all the wonderful legislation they were going to bring in over the next 3 years. Obviously that was bollocks, but that's what he said consistently, while denying it was an attempt to force through a no-deal Brexit. Now that everyone accepts there is going to be an election in November, how can he keep using this sham defence?
		
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As a politician he will use whatever trick in the book in a similar way that Labour are now in stopping a GE. Both sides playing games and there are still some not accepting it.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The prescription price is fixed but the drug selling price to the NHS could be anything, hence the need for NICE. Suppliers will have agreed prices but there may be an exceptional circumstances clause or you may have a company who is not a supplier buying up the drug, when stocks are low the NHS has to come to them and the price has to be negotiated from that point. You would hope the last point is a vision of tv fantasy and not reality. There is an element of guesswork in my answers on this, you would hope the NHS have pricing nailed down.

We have a few NHS workers on here. Hopefully one of them can clear up how companies can profit from this when everything really should be wrapped up nice and tight.
		
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I would hope so .
But these days money talks.
I would think a Guaranteed supply in the contract would be paramount.
So a third party trying to profit from it would be stopped .
But not holding my breath.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well it would be in contravention of Freedom of Movement UK have signed up to as a member state of the EU and so yes - I suspect that the EU would get involved - maybe also the ECJ.  And I would also suspect that UK would be taken to the ECHR. 

Thing is - it's easy to come up with unrealistic, extreme or daft laws to which the EU and others would say - hang on.  The question is about laws that should be revoked as they were imposed by the EU - and that does rather suggest it relates to stuff already in place.
		
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I think our politicians are capable of some stupid things.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			As a politician he will use whatever trick in the book in a similar way that Labour are now in stopping a GE. Both sides playing games and there are still some not accepting it.
		
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Itâ€™s NOT Labour stopping a GE, they donâ€™t have enough MPâ€™s to do that.

Itâ€™s absolutely every other Party plus a few tories minus the DUP stopping a GE.

ie. The opposition.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That's about as far removed from me having a vote for him as for the 'unelected bureaucrats' Brexit propagandists (erroneously imo) go on about!
Btw. Johnson wasn't in the frame for being PM at the GE!

Correct! And he's not!
My MP, who I may have voted for, was kicked out of the Party by Johnson! That's something I don't believe should have happened!
		
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Yes agree but thatâ€™s the closest you will get to voting for PM.
They could put Mickey Mouse in charge and we canâ€™t do anything until the next GE.

Yes that was an own goal I think . They have been elected on the manifesto and should be able to disagree if they feel itâ€™s moved away from it.
Without losing the whip.


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## Hobbit (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			At which point did I say tax avoidance isnâ€™t legal?


I didnâ€™t say anywhere that tax avoidance was a crime, try to play the ball not the man once in while.

It looks like you are not fussed about it, fair enough I wouldnâ€™t expect anything different to be honest.
		
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I'm in the "where's the crime group." I agree its immoral but until its a law I'm genuinely not interested. The reason is pretty solid I'm my mind. If you drive, for example, Starbucks to relocate elsewhere you're going to lose even more by forcing them out of the country. I'd rather have 5% of something than 20% of nothing.




Hitdaball said:



			I posted that link a while ago  , it was ignored then and it will likely be ignored now.
		
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I read the link but felt that when it started being vague about who did what, using language that exaggerated the wrongs of a particular group, it lost its impact. If it was accurate, rather than inflammatory I'd give it greater credence. However, the article did make me go and look at tax avoidance in the UK, and the rest of Europe/world. HMRC's own numbers for the amount of avoidance is quite staggering but the cost of chasing something already protected actually makes it hardly worthwhile - and if a government did what the Irish Government did in terms of tax breaks, you might as well totally forget it.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			...
But not holding my breath.
		
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That would be very unwise!


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## Mudball (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			How will a referendum solve the fact that the Gov or the opposition has no majority in Parliament and would not be able to get any legislation through parliament.
		
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another good point.... so what is the alternative.. 

Should we have Ref & GE on the same ballot?    

Then the folks could campaign...  'I am Joe/Jane Bloggs and I campaing to Remain/Leave'


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s NOT Labour stopping a GE, they donâ€™t have enough MPâ€™s to do that.

Itâ€™s absolutely every other Party plus a few tories minus the DUP stopping a GE.

ie. The opposition.
		
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My maths may be as poor as my spelling but I would have thought with Labour & Tories (less rebels) there would be the necessary numbers.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

Mudball said:



			another good point.... so what is the alternative..

Should we have Ref & GE on the same ballot?   

Then the folks could campaign...  'I am Joe/Jane Bloggs and I campaing to Remain/Leave'
		
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I presume stating the obvious "We have already had a referendum " is lost on some.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			My maths may be as poor as my spelling but I would have thought with Labour & Tories (less rebels) there would be the necessary numbers.
		
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Nobody else but the tories want a GE, heâ€™s playing games, he can have one today with 100% support if he takes No Deal off the table.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s NOT Labour stopping a GE, they donâ€™t have enough MPâ€™s to do that.

Itâ€™s absolutely every other Party plus a few tories minus the DUP stopping a GE.

ie. The opposition.
		
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Just heard on radio that Labour still have a petition for a GE on their website.
Corbyn has asked in Parliament 35 times for a GE.

the government is as good as its opposition ,has never been truer.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			...
I didnâ€™t say anywhere that tax avoidance was a crime, *try to play the ball not the man once in while*.
...
		
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There didn't seem, to me, to be any 'playing of the man' involved!


Hitdaball said:



			...
It looks like you are not fussed about it, fair enough I wouldnâ€™t expect anything different to be honest.
		
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From memory, Socket has been the CEO of a company - involving more than a few employees. So 'not fussed about it' would be an inappropriate description imo. A CEO has certain responsibilities, some enshrined in law, that (s)he 'has to be fussed about'!


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## Hitdaball (Sep 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So around Â£3.5 billion in tax evasion which is the bit that the government could claw back to spend elsewhere. Unless or until they change the rules on those areas of avoidance that are currently perfectly legal.

According to Full Fact the UK contribution to the EU in 2018 was Â£17.4 billion. We then get the rebate of Â£4.2 billion leaving Â£13.2 billion that is our actual contribution. The EU spent Â£4.3 billion on "public sector" in the UK which leaves Â£8.9 billion as our net contribution.

Which means that your original statement "not too much short of the UKs net contribution to the EU in 2018" was disingenuous at best or deliberately misleading or a lie at worst. The Â£3.5 billion is in fact just under 40% of our net EU membership costs or Â£5.4 billion short rather than "not too much short of".

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

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True to a point but only if you donâ€™t include tax avoidance. I would. 

No one earning income on PAYE is able to benefit from avoidance schemes- why is it seen as ok? I find it incredulous. 

So neither disingenuous misleading or a lie.  Just an opinion ðŸ˜‰


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just heard on radio that Labour still have a petition for a GE on their website.
Corbyn has asked in Parliament 35 times for a GE.

the government is as good as its opposition ,has never been truer.
		
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And yet this morning I was accused of being pedantic.

EVERYBODY wants a GE on their terms, Boris stated he wouldnâ€™t be holding a GE when he became PM, heâ€™s trying to manipulate everyone.

Why canâ€™t he agree heâ€™ll take No Deal off the table if heâ€™s that desperate for it.

Didnâ€™t see, read or hear one tory supporter asking for a GE prior to last week.


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## drdel (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Nobody else but the tories want a GE, heâ€™s playing games, he can have one today with 100% support if he takes No Deal off the table.
		
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But in the real world one side can never actually take walking away from a negotiation 'off the table'. Such a one-sided arrangement fails the EU's Art50 declaration of mutually agreed agreement. It could lead to a never ending set of meetings for decades which ties everyone together because no one side could unilaterally declare an ending. OK for the EU who will happily waste member's money (they have just appointed  two commissioners at a cost of 1m euros each to do nothing until Nov when the new lot starts). Its just a couple of silly words leading to no mutually agreed logical conclusion of negotiations.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			But in the real world one side can never actually take walking away from a negotiation 'off the table'. Such a one-sided arrangement fails the EU's Art50 declaration of mutually agreed agreement. It could lead to a never ending set of meetings for decades which ties everyone together because no one side could unilaterally declare an ending. OK for the EU who will happily waste member's money (they have just appointed  two commissioners at a cost of 1m euros each to do nothing until Nov when the new lot starts). Its just a couple of silly words leading to no mutually agreed logical conclusion of negotiations.
		
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Presumably, 2 have also gone - or will go. Correct?


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			True to a point but only if you donâ€™t include tax avoidance. I would.

No one earning income on PAYE is able to benefit from avoidance schemes- why is it seen as ok? I find it incredulous.

So neither disingenuous misleading or a lie.  Just an opinion ðŸ˜‰
		
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Why would you include avoidance? Have you got an ISA? This is one example of perfectly legal tax avoidance. Absolutely nothing wrong with it and within the law.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			As a politician he will use whatever trick in the book in a similar way that Labour are now in stopping a GE. Both sides playing games and there are still some not accepting it.
		
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The Labour party is not stopping a GE - *Parliament* is delaying a GE until the 31/10 picture is clear.  

Johnson should be delighted - after all he doesn't want one.  What's a few weeks delay in holding of a GE between friends.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			But in the real world one side can never actually take walking away from a negotiation 'off the table'. Such a one-sided arrangement fails the EU's Art50 declaration of mutually agreed agreement. It could lead to a never ending set of meetings for decades which ties everyone together because no one side could unilaterally declare an ending. OK for the EU who will happily waste member's money (they have just appointed  two commissioners at a cost of 1m euros each to do nothing until Nov when the new lot starts). Its just a couple of silly words leading to no mutually agreed logical conclusion of negotiations.
		
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Unfortunately the issue is the man himself, all the soundbites and statements heâ€™s made during the summer prior to Parliament coming back, led to him not being trusted, including by members of his own Party.

For example; If heâ€™d of cancelled the conferences, put out statements of doing everything in his power to get a deal etc he may not as been so successful in uniting the rest of Parliament against him.

Did he really have to publicly state time and time again the No Deal option or could of he tried to negotiate and kept that private, he has intentionally or not made the No Deal option look like his priority.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Labour party is not stopping a GE - *Parliament* is delaying a GE until the 31/10 picture is clear. 

Johnson should be delighted - after all he doesn't want one.  What's a few weeks delay in holding of a GE between friends.
		
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So no significant change here then, lucky as I haven't seen your link where this has recently been stated for granting an extension.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



*For example; If heâ€™d of cancelled the conferences*, put out statements of doing everything in his power to get a deal etc he may not as been so successful in uniting the rest of Parliament against him.
		
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Can a Conservative PM cancel the Labour and Lib Dem conferences?


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			..
No one earning income on PAYE is able to benefit from avoidance schemes- why is it seen as ok? I find it incredulous.
...
		
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Twaddle!

Btw. I believe 'incredible' would have been more appropriate!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Labour party is not stopping a GE - *Parliament* is delaying a GE until the 31/10 picture is clear. 

Johnson should be delighted - after all he doesn't want one.  What's a few weeks delay in holding of a GE between friends.
		
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Your missing the trick, tory MPâ€™s + Labour MPâ€™s is enough to get a GE and as heâ€™s not getting one (simple maths) itâ€™s Labours fault, but when you use simple maths to show TMâ€™s deal would of got through had she had tory support on itâ€™s own, you get the bad deal and Labours fault again excuse.

So itâ€™s never the tories fault.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can a Conservative PM cancel the Labour and Lib Dem conferences?
		
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I believe the Government could of kept Parliament open for the next 5 weeks to discuss Brexit and cancelled their own conference, other leaders would of followed, Iâ€™ve definitely seen anger from both Lab/Lib MPâ€™s complaining it will be closed.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Your missing the trick, tory MPâ€™s + Labour MPâ€™s is enough to get a GE and as heâ€™s not getting one (simple maths) itâ€™s Labours fault, but when you use simple maths to show TMâ€™s deal would of got through had she had tory support on itâ€™s own, you get the bad deal and Labours fault again excuse.

So itâ€™s never the tories fault.

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Nobody can deny that elements in the Tory party cocked it up but they needed others in parliament to get involved and get involved they did.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Nobody can deny that elements in the Tory party cocked it up but they needed others in parliament to get involved and get involved they did.
		
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Come on mate, with hindsight TM started this by calling a GE and then it just went downhill from there.
We were 2 years down the road before she brought her deal to Parliament and she didnâ€™t even have all of her own party supporting her.
It was a shambles way before other elements got involved.


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## Grant85 (Sep 9, 2019)

well well well... so after 1 week facing the scrutiny of elected representatives, Boris has decided enough is enough, and has packed up the whole place for 5 weeks.

In terms of Boris's week last week, surely no strategy involved it going as badly as that;
* the threat of removal of the whip still resulting in the loss of 21 (now 22) Tory MPs
* his brother not being able to stomach things and packing it in
* the opposition denying him the early election
* being put under so much pressure by MPs and journalists at every opportunity (and generally not coping well enough on those occasions)

It's clear now Boris's strategy was to go to the country on 15th October as the voice of the most pro-Brexit political force, with the Brexit Party standing down. Winning a lot of pro-Brexit seats from Labour and possibly holding onto a few coin tosses by playing on the Corbyn factor to middle or higher income remainers. Also banking on Lib Dems being strong enough to stop Labour winning a few seats in remain areas and Tories to win a few 3 way marginals due to being the only pro Brexit candidate).

The arithmetic is tricky, but it's entirely possible he could have won a comfortable majority on 35% of the vote. (assuming votes were split Con 35%, Lab 30%, Lib Debs 20, others 15%).
Blair won a majority of around 60 seats in 2005 with a 35 / 32 / 22 split for the 3 main UK parties (albeit that was with 40 odd Scottish seats).

He could then have gone to the EU that week and claimed to have a clear mandate for No Deal on 31st October and threatened very plausibly to pull that trigger if a better deal was not forthcoming. Not sure if this would have worked, but it's possible. At the very least, even in the event of No Deal happening, he has 5 years in office with a reasonable majority to try and reduce the impact of No Deal and create a completely different narrative in 5 years time.

Now, it is more likely there will be an election in November or December when he will have broken his 'no if's, no buts' 31st October promise. The Brexit Party will be less likely to stand candidates down and even the ideologues in his own party might have abandoned him. Also gives more time to the opposition to potentially agree a strategy in England & Wales not to split the pro-EU vote.

All in all, a very decent week for remain and we are potentially closer to a 2nd referendum with realistic choices on the ballot paper and a WHOLE lot more information for voters to make their mind up on.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on mate, with hindsight TM started this by calling a GE and then it just went downhill from there.
We were 2 years down the road before she brought her deal to Parliament and she didnâ€™t even have all of her own party supporting her.
It was a shambles way before other elements got involved.
		
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Agreed but what I cannot agree with is  that people are ignoring (IMO) the fact that the whole Brexit farce has been continually blocked by the majority in Parliament who, whether for remain or political reasons have helped in the cluster muck.


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## IainP (Sep 9, 2019)

Does anyone think that Tusk & Junker would allow a member state or two to block an extension?
Knowing how a block would look, I just can't see it.


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## chrisd (Sep 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No and as pointed out by the mods, take it up with them and don't post in threads  if you have some wacky a accusations to make.
		
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I think I'm free to post when and where I choose thanks !


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

IainP said:



			Does anyone think that Tusk & Junker would allow a member state or two to block an extension?
Knowing how a block would look, I just can't see it.
		
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Are these two even in charge anymore?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Agreed but what I cannot agree with is  that people are ignoring (IMO) the fact that the whole Brexit farce has been continually blocked by the majority in Parliament who, whether for remain or political reasons have helped in the cluster muck.
		
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The consensus of opinion is that TMâ€™s Deal was a bad deal (BRINO) are you suggesting MPâ€™s from all sides should of just voted for it so it was perceived as them carrying out the referendum result?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171059607114043395


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on mate, with hindsight TM started this by calling a GE and then it just went downhill from there.
We were 2 years down the road before she brought her deal to Parliament and she didnâ€™t even have all of her own party supporting her.
It was a shambles way before other elements got involved.
		
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Wrong!

Cameron started it by calling the Referendum!

May took over and realised she wouldn't be able to win votes with the slim majority she had, so called another election. That move backfired - badly!

The fact is that MPs are about as divided on the issue as the rest of the country, so it was always going to be a 'tough ask' to get legislation through! And the EU negotiators knew/know this, so adjust their approach accordingly.

No Deal, via Article 50's default, has always looked the most likely 'result' to me! And future negotiations will be just as difficult imo. EU will continue to insist on an arrangement that maintains their control of agenda and agreements!


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The consensus of opinion is that TMâ€™s Deal was a bad deal (BRINO) are you suggesting MPâ€™s from all sides should of just voted for it so it was perceived as them carrying out the referendum result?
		
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No, I'm suggested that you could have come up with any deal and I suspect it would have been rejected.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Are these two even in charge anymore?
		
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Yes indeed!

President of European Council and European Commission resp.


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## drdel (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Wrong!

Cameron started it by calling the Referendum!

May took over and realised she wouldn't be able to win votes with the slim majority she had, so called another election. That move backfired - badly!

The fact is that MPs are about as divided on the issue as the rest of the country, so it was always going to be a 'tough ask' to get legislation through! And the EU negotiators knew/know this, so adjust their approach accordingly.

No Deal, via Article 50's default, has always looked the most likely 'result' to me! And future negotiations will be just as difficult imo. EU will continue to insist on an arrangement that maintains their control of agenda and agreements!
		
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Not forgetting the fact that a massive majority of the MPs supported Art50; a portion of the same MPs have now changed their minds.

And, a big majority asked BJ to become PM and now that same crowd have decided that they don't want him doing what he said he'd do - is it any wonder the guy will resort to the same underhand tactics?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on mate, with hindsight *TM started this by calling a GE and then it just went downhill from there.*
We were 2 years down the road before she brought her deal to Parliament and she didnâ€™t even have all of her own party supporting her.
It was a shambles way before other elements got involved.
		
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...and she compounded her error by painting her negotiating team into a corner by laying down her Red Lines.  Right from the point she did that it was obvious to anyone who cared to look and to listen to what the EU were saying that she'd end up with the sort of deal she ended up with.

My mate and I want to buy a comic that costs five pence.  If I start with three pennies but one is my brother's and he'll duff me up if I use it - and my mate has two pennies and he tells me he absolutely only has two pennies - no matter how hard we try - no matter how passionately or repeatedly I say that I want the sum to be five so we can buy the comic - no matter how much or how long we shuffle them about - we won't ever have five pennies - the sum will always be four unless I decide to use my brother's penny.  Then we will have five pennies.

But my brother might well duff me up.

My mate could go and nick a penny out of his mum's purse - but that would cause him sooo much trouble that he has decided that it just wouldn't be worth it - he'd rather us not have the comic and keep on his mum's side.

I still think he should go and nick a penny rather than me risk getting duffed up by my brother,


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## JamesR (Sep 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			Not forgetting the fact that a massive *majority of the MPs supported Art50*; a portion of the same MPs have now changed their minds.

And, a big majority asked BJ to become PM and now that same crowd have decided that they don't want him doing what he said he'd do - is it any wonder the guy will resort to the same underhand tactics?
		
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I cannot fully recollect, was the negotiating with the EU allowed to begin without Article 50 being triggered?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on mate, with hindsight TM started this by calling a GE and then it just went downhill from there.
We were 2 years down the road before she brought her deal to Parliament and she didnâ€™t even have all of her own party supporting her.
It was a shambles way before other elements got involved.
		
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No one is supporting Mays strategy and no one is saying Conservative MPs are not to share blame on Brexit not being delivered. What many people are complaining about is MPs of all parties are working against the referendum result even though they said they would respect it. Oh, and that includes Labour MPs.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I cannot fully recollect, was the negotiating with the EU allowed to begin without Article 50 being triggered?
		
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It wasn't allowed to begin before A50 was triggered.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			Not forgetting the fact that a massive majority of the MPs supported Art50; a portion of the same MPs have now changed their minds.
...
		
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I'm not sure they have changed their minds; they just don't like the 'current direction' of No Deal.

And Boris probably seemed the 'best choice' (or at least 2nd best, so had to be 1 of the 2 offered to Party members) after May resigned, another situation that was 'forced on them'!


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## Fade and Die (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and she compounded her error by painting her negotiating team into a corner by laying down her Red Lines.  Right from the point she did that it was obvious to anyone who cared to look and to listen to what the EU were saying that she'd end up with the sort of deal she ended up with.

My mate and I want to buy a comic that costs five pence.  If I start with three pennies but one is my brother's and he'll duff me up if I use it - and my mate has two pennies and he tells me he absolutely only has two pennies - no matter how hard we try - no matter how passionately or repeatedly I say that I want the sum to be five so we can buy the comic - no matter how much or how long we shuffle them about - we won't ever have five pennies - the sum will always be four unless I decide to use my brother's penny.  Then we will have five pennies.

But my brother might well duff me up.

My mate could go and nick a penny out of his mum's purse - but that would cause him sooo much trouble that he has decided that it just wouldn't be worth it - he'd rather us not have the comic and keep on his mum's side.

I still think he should go and nick a penny rather than me risk getting duffed up by my brother,
		
Click to expand...


Yes very relevant, thank you.ðŸ¤¯


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and she compounded her error by painting her negotiating team into a corner by laying down her Red Lines.  Right from the point she did that it was obvious to anyone who cared to look and to listen to what the EU were saying that she'd end up with the sort of deal she ended up with.

My mate and I want to buy a comic that costs five pence.  If I start with three pennies but one is my brother's and he'll duff me up if I use it - and my mate has two pennies and he tells me he absolutely only has two pennies - no matter how hard we try - no matter how passionately or repeatedly I say that I want the sum to be five so we can buy the comic - no matter how much or how long we shuffle them about - we won't ever have five pennies - the sum will always be four unless I decide to use my brother's penny.  Then we will have five pennies.

But my brother might well duff me up.

My mate could go and nick a penny out of his mum's purse - but that would cause him sooo much trouble that he has decided that it just wouldn't be worth it - he'd rather us not have the comic and keep on his mum's side.

I still think he should go and nick a penny rather than me risk getting duffed up by my brother,
		
Click to expand...

Why don't you and your mate join forces, duff up your brother then buy the comic. Thats what MPs are doing now.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not sure they have changed their minds; they just don't like the 'current direction' of No Deal.

And Boris probably seemed the 'best choice' (or at least 2nd best, so had to be 1 of the 2 offered to Party members) after May resigned, another situation that was 'forced on them'!
		
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I disagree. I would suggest all the Tory MPs that have left or been sacked want to stop Brexit any way they can and with the assistance of a biased Speaker they are making a good job of it.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

So we have a PM who didnâ€™t want a GE but now he does.
An opposition leader who did want a GE now he doesnâ€™t.

While the EU sit waiting laughing.
Most MPs donâ€™t know the meaning of compromise.
If this was two business men it would be sorted now I think.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why don't you and your mate join forces, duff up your brother then buy the comic. Thats what MPs are doing now.
		
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I would not trust them with 5p to go and buy a comic.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

IainP said:



			Does anyone think that Tusk & Junker would allow a member state or two to block an extension?
Knowing how a block would look, I just can't see it.
		
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How could they stop it. Under the terms of article 50 all member states have to agree to an extension of discussions after two years.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes very relevant, thank you.ðŸ¤¯
		
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my pleasure


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree. I would suggest all the Tory MPs that have left or been sacked want to stop Brexit any way they can and with the assistance of a biased Speaker they are making a good job of it.
		
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Ken Clarke was the only Tory who voted against Article 50. Nearly 50 Labour ones did.

Can you provide proven instances where Bercow has shown bias in his decisions? As opposed to (foolishly?) announcing it - at a Comedy Festival btw!


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## PieMan (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Wrong!

Cameron started it by calling the Referendum!

May took over and realised she wouldn't be able to win votes with the slim majority she had, so called another election. That move backfired - badly!

The fact is that MPs are about as divided on the issue as the rest of the country, so it was always going to be a 'tough ask' to get legislation through! And the EU negotiators knew/know this, so adjust their approach accordingly.

No Deal, via Article 50's default, has always looked the most likely 'result' to me! And future negotiations will be just as difficult imo. EU will continue to insist on an arrangement that maintains their control of agenda and agreements!
		
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I don't disagree with any of your points, but I would say it could even be argued that it was the Lib Dems that started the whole process - think I can recall Sir Nick Clegg calling for a referendum when he was their leader, and then the other parties reacting to that as he became more popular.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2019)

Rumour from Westminster is that Bercow might be thinking of staying seated in his chair when today's session would normally close - and that would mean that, for as long as the Speaker remains seated, parliament could not be prorogue.  LOL - but it's a good one 

But no - he is going to stand down at close of business October 31st


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			my pleasure
		
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While you were out buying your comic did anything come up on significant changes.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

PieMan said:



			I don't disagree with any of your points, but I would say it could even be argued that it was the Lib Dems that started the whole process - think I can recall Sir Nick Clegg calling for a referendum when he was their leader, and then the other parties reacting to that as he became more popular.
		
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Possibly. But I'd suggest Cameron's frustration with Farage's 'sect' and committed Brexiteers within his own party was what REALLY got the ball rolling.


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## chrisd (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But no - he is going to stand down at close of business October 31st 

Click to expand...

Thank goodness, jumped up little so and so, let's hope we never hear from him or his wife ever again  ðŸ˜£


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

Bercow going, before he is pushed.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...enied-peerage-following-brexit-feud-ministers


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## Grant85 (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			So we have a PM who didnâ€™t want a GE but now he does.
An opposition leader who did want a GE now he doesnâ€™t.

While the EU sit waiting laughing.
Most MPs donâ€™t know the meaning of compromise.
If this was two business men it would be sorted now I think.
		
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Main issue is nothing was decided on what Brexit actually meant prior to the referendum. 

Ultimately if the government had delivered on the referendum result by moving the UK to a relationship similar to that of Norway, then they would probably have gotten a clear majority for that in the HoC and the country would have gone 'ok then, fair enough' - with only the fringes on each side unhappy with that. 

The problem with a Tory government doing that is that it wouldn't have satisfied Farage and he would still have been beating the drum (as he's entitled to do) that this was not delivering on the result etc. And while it wouldn't have made enough of an impact to win many seats for Farage, it might have done enough damage to make it tough for the Tories to win too many future elections. 

So, then we had May painting herself into a corner as a Remain voter but trying to make sure everyone knew she wasn't going to take us out on a technicality and it had to be full steam ahead with getting out. Trigger A50 straight away without a proper plan or even working out what she could get through parliament. 

Then she had an election which ended up leaving her having to rely on DUP votes. Which made NI a very inconvenient problem and one that they could no longer sling under a bus - as they almost certainly would have done if she'd got her 60 to 100 majority she thought she might get. 

Ultimately a compromise from the start of the UK leaving the EU and but staying in Customs Union / EFTA is the only possible form of Brexit there is or could be a majority for. There is clearly not a majority for No Deal and given the water that has flowed under the bridge since 2016, there may well be a majority for Remain now, even if Brexit remained as this blank canvas that it was in 2016.


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## IanM (Sep 9, 2019)

Verhofstadt tweeting his delight about the upcoming EU Army.   Funny, according to these pages that was a nasty lie put about by Farage.


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## Grant85 (Sep 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Bercow going, before he is pushed.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...enied-peerage-following-brexit-feud-ministers

Click to expand...

Personally will miss Bercow. He does seem to love himself, but it is hugely important to have a very independent minded individual in that role. 

Lets hope his replacement is of a similar mindset.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So today it becomes UK law that we cant leave with No Deal from EU on 31/10, yes?

So if an A50 extension is vetoed by France and so is not granted by EU what happens then? Are we out with No Deal (illegal?) or revoke A50 and stay in (legal?).

Maybe Macron figures if he forces the issue by vetoing an extension and Boris can't get a GE before 31/10 UKs only legal position is revoke A50?
		
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The Law created in parliament relating to the Government requesting an extension to A50 on 31st Oct is nothing to do with the EU or the terms of A50. We would be out the EU in accordance with our legal decision to trigger A50 and accept its outcome.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Bercow going, before he is pushed.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...enied-peerage-following-brexit-feud-ministers

Click to expand...

Good news. He has a very inflated ego and  I find it hard to see him as impartial. Sooner he's off the better and hopefully the next Speaker will do a better job.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Main issue is nothing was decided on what Brexit actually meant prior to the referendum.

Ultimately if the government had delivered on the referendum result by moving the UK to a relationship similar to that of Norway, then they would probably have gotten a clear majority for that in the HoC and the country would have gone 'ok then, fair enough' - with only the fringes on each side unhappy with that.
...
		
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Norway model still wouldn't have been acceptable to the vast majority of Leavers because it still required acceptance of Freedom of Movement!

Swiss model (which 'does but doesn't fully' include FofM) perhaps, but that's incredibly complicated and there's continual pressure for the Swiss to 'fold'!`


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rumour from Westminster is that Bercow might be thinking of staying seated in his chair when today's session would normally close - and that would mean that, for as long as the Speaker remains seated, parliament could not be prorogue.  LOL - but it's a good one 

But no - he is going to stand down at close of business October 31st 

Click to expand...

Hope he has a good bladder.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Good news. He has a very inflated ego and  *I find it hard to see him as impartial*. Sooner he's off the better and hopefully the next Speaker will do a better job.
		
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That's better!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Main issue is nothing was decided on what Brexit actually meant prior to the referendum.

Ultimately if the government had delivered on the referendum result by moving the UK to a relationship similar to that of Norway, then they would probably have gotten a clear majority for that in the HoC and the country would have gone 'ok then, fair enough' - with only the fringes on each side unhappy with that.

The problem with a Tory government doing that is that it wouldn't have satisfied Farage and he would still have been beating the drum (as he's entitled to do) that this was not delivering on the result etc. And while it wouldn't have made enough of an impact to win many seats for Farage, it might have done enough damage to make it tough for the Tories to win too many future elections.

So, then we had May painting herself into a corner as a Remain voter but trying to make sure everyone knew she wasn't going to take us out on a technicality and it had to be full steam ahead with getting out. Trigger A50 straight away without a proper plan or even working out what she could get through parliament.

Then she had an election which ended up leaving her having to rely on DUP votes. Which made NI a very inconvenient problem and one that they could no longer sling under a bus - as they almost certainly would have done if she'd got her 60 to 100 majority she thought she might get.

Ultimately a compromise from the start of the UK leaving the EU and but staying in Customs Union / EFTA is the only possible form of Brexit there is or could be a majority for. There is clearly not a majority for No Deal and given the water that has flowed under the bridge since 2016, there may well be a majority for Remain now, even if Brexit remained as this blank canvas that it was in 2016.
		
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If the EU had conceded a few tit bits to Cameron when he went there we would not have had a referendum.
But they proved you canâ€™t change them from within .
They called Cameronâ€™s bluff and we are where we are.


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## IanM (Sep 9, 2019)

I think the issue was that Mrs May wasnt really trying to leave.  

When you look at the balance of trade between us and the UK, her position was too daft to be an accident.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If the EU had conceded a few tit bits to Cameron when he went there we would not have had a referendum.
But they proved you canâ€™t change them from within .
They called Cameronâ€™s bluff and we are where we are.
		
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They did! But those concessions were not particularly great and simply ignored by devoted Brexiteers!

Anyway! It's pointless trying to analyse what caused the chaos! 'We are where we are' indeed! Let's get on and get it done! Preferably with a deal, but without one if necessary!


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## Tashyboy (Sep 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			well well well... so after 1 week facing the scrutiny of elected representatives, Boris has decided enough is enough, and has packed up the whole place for 5 weeks.

In terms of Boris's week last week, surely no strategy involved it going as badly as that;
* the threat of removal of the whip still resulting in the loss of 21 (now 22) Tory MPs
* his brother not being able to stomach things and packing it in
* the opposition denying him the early election
* being put under so much pressure by MPs and journalists at every opportunity (and generally not coping well enough on those occasions)

It's clear now Boris's strategy was to go to the country on 15th October as the voice of the most pro-Brexit political force, with the Brexit Party standing down. Winning a lot of pro-Brexit seats from Labour and possibly holding onto a few coin tosses by playing on the Corbyn factor to middle or higher income remainers. Also banking on Lib Dems being strong enough to stop Labour winning a few seats in remain areas and Tories to win a few 3 way marginals due to being the only pro Brexit candidate).

The arithmetic is tricky, but it's entirely possible he could have won a comfortable majority on 35% of the vote. (assuming votes were split Con 35%, Lab 30%, Lib Debs 20, others 15%).
Blair won a majority of around 60 seats in 2005 with a 35 / 32 / 22 split for the 3 main UK parties (albeit that was with 40 odd Scottish seats).

He could then have gone to the EU that week and claimed to have a clear mandate for No Deal on 31st October and threatened very plausibly to pull that trigger if a better deal was not forthcoming. Not sure if this would have worked, but it's possible. At the very least, even in the event of No Deal happening, he has 5 years in office with a reasonable majority to try and reduce the impact of No Deal and create a completely different narrative in 5 years time.

Now, it is more likely there will be an election in November or December when he will have broken his 'no if's, no buts' 31st October promise. The Brexit Party will be less likely to stand candidates down and even the ideologues in his own party might have abandoned him. Also gives more time to the opposition to potentially agree a strategy in England & Wales not to split the pro-EU vote.

All in all, a very decent week for remain and we are potentially closer to a 2nd referendum with realistic choices on the ballot paper and a WHOLE lot more information for voters to make their mind up on.
		
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You know what Grant, am not to sure it's been a good week for either side of the discussion. Labour still   on QT that they are still clueless. Euro MPs shouting about an EU army which will bog some folk off, coz it was scaremongering by ( lying )Farage, who will now love hearing that, but more importantly his supporters will.Amber Rudd resigns because more effort is now spent on leaving than staying. Yet we are only 8 weeks away, what we supposed to do. No planning at All. Yet BJ is in Ireland trying to build bridges. The situation has gone from crap deal to any deal to stopping a no deal coz they cannot agree on any deal, forgetting that EU say there's no other deal. Bercow has chucked out his teddy, which is odd coz I asked a question re him the other day and it didn't get much interest. Nope not seen a great deal to say we won this week on points. All the time the clock is ticking down.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If the EU had conceded a few tit bits to Cameron when he went there we would not have had a referendum.
But they proved you canâ€™t change them from within .
They called Cameronâ€™s bluff and we are where we are.
		
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^^^^^ This, I said at the time, when the EU passed the deal offered to TM, it took 20 minutes. I have spent three years listening to remain and Brexiteers arguing who is to blame for this mess. Some may well look towards Brussels and rightly so. I called it three years ago. There will be no deal unless someone blinks and it don't look like it will be Boris. If it does become no deal, I see an almighty fall out in Europe. If the EU had sorted out a deal for all and left the door open we would not be in this mess, nor Europe in years to come.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			You know what Grant, am not to sure it's been a good week for either side of the discussion. Labour still   on QT that they are still clueless. Euro MPs shouting about an EU army which will bog some folk off, coz it was scaremongering by ( lying )Farage, who will now love hearing that, but more importantly his supporters will.Amber Rudd resigns because more effort is now spent on leaving than staying. Yet we are only 8 weeks away, what we supposed to do. No planning at All. Yet BJ is in Ireland trying to build bridges. The situation has gone from crap deal to any deal to stopping a no deal coz they cannot agree on any deal, forgetting that EU say there's no other deal. Bercow has chucked out his teddy, which is odd coz I asked a question re him the other day and it didn't get much interest. Nope not seen a great deal to say we won this week on points. All the time the clock is ticking down.
		
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Bruce made a great point on QT.  'Labour want to form an interim Government, go to the EU and negotiate a good deal to leave then hold a referendum where they will campaign against the deal they negotiated.  You couldn't  make it up.


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## JamesR (Sep 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Bercow going, before he is pushed.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...enied-peerage-following-brexit-feud-ministers

Click to expand...

Making it such that this parliament picks his replacement.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

When MPs have been talking a LOT about how its terrible they have no time to talk about important matters of state, not sure it's a great look to then spend an hour and a half (so far) saying how marvellous the Speaker is


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## Hobbit (Sep 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Personally will miss Bercow. He does seem to love himself, but it is hugely important to have a very independent minded individual in that role.

Lets hope his replacement is of a similar mindset.
		
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Watched a lot of Parliament, and him. Thought he was great in the early days but I feel his impartiality is now very much in question. He's right to stand against the Govt if they were breaking parliamentary rules... not sure he's blurred the lines in recent times. The last intervention of his to an MP speaking from a sedentary position went on, and on, and on, and on.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why would you include avoidance? Have you got an ISA? This is one example of perfectly legal tax avoidance. Absolutely nothing wrong with it and within the law.
		
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That you are using an ISA as an example of tax avoidance in the context of this suggests that you donâ€™t really want to have a serious discussion.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!

Btw. I believe 'incredible' would have been more appropriate!
		
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Sure,  Iâ€™ll take English language lessons from one of the twaddlers . ðŸ˜‚


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## Hobbit (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			That you are using an ISA as an example of tax avoidance in the context of this suggests that you donâ€™t really want to have a serious discussion.
		
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Both are taking advantage of tax laws. Where do you draw the line on what tax avoidance is ok and what isn't? If the man in the street is saving 20% on his tax, and a company is saving 15% on Corporation Tax who is right? If you've got 5 million people saving 20% on their ISA's won't that add up to a big number?



Hitdaball said:



			Sure,  Iâ€™ll take English language lessons from one of the twaddlers . ðŸ˜‚
		
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Please have a massive like for this one! Oh, and another massive like too!!


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## Hitdaball (Sep 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Both are taking advantage of tax laws. Where do you draw the line on what tax avoidance is ok and what isn't? If the man in the street is saving 20% on his tax, and a company is saving 15% on Corporation Tax who is right? If you've got 5 million people saving 20% on their ISA's won't that add up to a big number?



Please have a massive like for this one! Oh, and another massive like too!! 

Click to expand...

ISAs are a government initiative to allow folk to save tax free with fully defined operating limits. 

Tax avoidance is looking for loop holes on laws and regulations to not pay tax where the rules and regulations might otherwise expect one to do so. 

Clearly in any case potential tax lost on ISA interest is not included in any estimates of tax avoidance. 

I honestly just donâ€™t get it, genuinely.  We should all be really strongly behind people paying tax as intended and closing down loopholes and offshore banking to hide profits but it seems not.  

I think the word Iâ€™m looking for is flabbergasted but itâ€™s probably isnâ€™t and someone can come along and correct me in a bit.


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## Hobbit (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			ISAs are a government initiative to allow folk to save tax free with fully defined operating limits.

Tax avoidance is looking for loop holes on laws and regulations to not pay tax where the rules and regulations might otherwise expect one to do so.

Clearly in any case potential tax lost on ISA interest is not included in any estimates of tax avoidance.

I honestly just donâ€™t get it, genuinely.  We should all be really strongly behind people paying tax as intended and closing down loopholes and offshore banking to hide profits but it seems not. 

I think the word Iâ€™m looking for is flabbergasted but itâ€™s probably isnâ€™t and someone can come along and correct me in a bit.
		
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I'm very much in support of people paying tax. I'm not keen on the UK shutting a loop hole if it then drives that business to set up somewhere else. If every country stopped it at the same time, yes I'm all for it, but not the potential to see businesses leave the UK.


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## Foxholer (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			ISAs are a government initiative to *allow folk to save tax free *with fully defined operating limits.
...
		
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Re the bold bit...
= 'avoid paying tax'. 


Hitdaball said:



			I think the word Iâ€™m looking for is flabbergasted but itâ€™s probably isnâ€™t and someone can come along and correct me in a bit.
		
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No! That's perfect!

As for ISAs versus other, legal, forms of reducing tax liability. There's no difference as far as I'm concerned. Both use the reduction of tax as an incentive to put cash into the specific scheme.


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## robinthehood (Sep 9, 2019)

oof, save tax where you can. i'm in a number of tax efficient savings and share schemes, a SIPP and I also make charitable contributions in a tax fee way as that works out better for me and the charity.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Re the bold bit...
= 'avoid paying tax'.


.
		
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Its unclear to me what point you are arguing.   Using your â€œlogicâ€ having a tax code is tax avoidance by only paying tax on a portion of salary due to government regulation to allow it?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

Olly Robbins to receive a Knighthood on Theresa May's orders. Why does Westminster continually reward big losers?   Olly Robbins failed to grasp the opportunities Brexit provides and sought to trick MPs into voting for an EU Surrender Treaty.  He should be jailed, not Knighted.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

In a last-minute desperate attempt to prevent prorogation, remain MPs have submitted a request for a Humble Address motion â€“ an archaic procedure only used three times since 1866 â€“ to force certain Special Advisers to handover their personal and private communications sent via Facebook, Whatsapp, iMessage, and private email, among other methods. 

How about the SpAds agree to hand over their private messages but only if the Remain MPs demanding they do so also hand over *their* private messages too. Iâ€™d love to see their traitorous collusion with Brussels bureaucrats and foreign politicians in black and white.


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## ger147 (Sep 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			In a last-minute desperate attempt to prevent prorogation, remain MPs have submitted a request for a Humble Address motion â€“ an archaic procedure only used three times since 1866 â€“ to force certain Special Advisers to handover their personal and private communications sent via Facebook, Whatsapp, iMessage, and private email, among other methods. 

How about the SpAds agree to hand over their private messages but only if the Remain MPs demanding they do so also hand over *their* private messages too. Iâ€™d love to see their traitorous collusion with Brussels bureaucrats and foreign politicians in black and white.
		
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It is not an attempt to block prorogation, parliament can't block prorogation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Wrong!

Cameron started it by calling the Referendum!

May took over and realised she wouldn't be able to win votes with the slim majority she had, so called another election. That move backfired - badly!

The fact is that MPs are about as divided on the issue as the rest of the country, so it was always going to be a 'tough ask' to get legislation through! And the EU negotiators knew/know this, so adjust their approach accordingly.

No Deal, via Article 50's default, has always looked the most likely 'result' to me! And future negotiations will be just as difficult imo. EU will continue to insist on an arrangement that maintains their control of agenda and agreements!
		
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Only Wrong in your opinion.

Cameron carried out a manifesto pledge, now we have people on here criticise parties for not carrying out their manifesto promises, you canâ€™t have it both ways.

May then activated Art 50, then called a snap election for no more than vanity reasons, Cameron had gone by then so no blame can be put on him for this reason.

The 2017 created no clear winner, 98 new MPâ€™s were elected (none of whom were in position when Art 50 was voted on and they were voted in by us in full knowledge of referendum result.

May stayed in Government by paying a bung to the DUP, she then had all sorts of issues with her negotiation team, didnâ€™t disclose the plan to many tory MPâ€™s and took no input from any other party during the negotiation process.

You then brought the deal and was voted down by the highest loss in history, spent 3 months trying to bring it back and continually refusing to speak to other parties, finally spoke to them and changed nothing.

We are were we are today because TM and the tory party(who also gave her a vote of confidence but couldnâ€™t back her deal).

The rest, imo, is smoke and mirrors, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP etc have never had any control over the negotiations nor any input to them, yet people expect them to bend over and take one for the tories without the tories expected to do the same.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Only Wrong in your opinion.

Cameron carried out a manifesto pledge, now we have people on here criticise parties for not carrying out their manifesto promises, you canâ€™t have it both ways.

May then activated Art 50, then called a snap election for no more than vanity reasons, Cameron had gone by then so no blame can be put on him for this reason.

The 2017 created no clear winner, 98 new MPâ€™s were elected (none of whom were in position when Art 50 was voted on and they were voted in by us in full knowledge of referendum result.

May stayed in Government by paying a bung to the DUP, she then had all sorts of issues with her negotiation team, didnâ€™t disclose the plan to many tory MPâ€™s and took no input from any other party during the negotiation process.

You then brought the deal and was voted down by the highest loss in history, spent 3 months trying to bring it back and continually refusing to speak to other parties, finally spoke to them and changed nothing.

We are were we are today because TM and the tory party(who also gave her a vote of confidence but couldnâ€™t back her deal).

The rest, imo, is smoke and mirrors, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP etc have never had any control over the negotiations nor any input to them, yet people expect them to bend over and take one for the tories without the tories expected to do the same.
		
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You missed the bit where they voted for article 50 and all said they would respect the referendum result then worked against it.AND ONCE MORE FOR CLARITY THIS INCLUDES CONSERVATIVES


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You missed the bit where they voted for article 50 and all said they would respect the referendum result then worked against it.AND ONCE MORE FOR CLARITY THIS INCLUDES CONSERVATIVES
		
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But if the party that controlled and negotiated the deal canâ€™t back it, why should anyone else, plus the 98 new MPâ€™s didnâ€™t vote for Art 50.
She had a decent majority, enough to get any deal through prior to calling the GE.
The result of that completely undermind her.


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## Hobbit (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But if the party that controlled and negotiated the deal canâ€™t back it, why should anyone else, plus the 98 new MPâ€™s didnâ€™t vote for Art 50.
She had a decent majority, enough to get any deal through prior to calling the GE.
The result of that completely undermind her.
		
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She didnâ€™t have a decent enough majority to get a deal through. Youâ€™ve only got to look at how many Tories voted against her deal to realise that without the 2017 GE she still would have lost.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			That you are using an ISA as an example of tax avoidance in the context of this suggests that you donâ€™t really want to have a serious discussion.
		
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Hitdaball said:



			Clearly in any case potential tax lost on ISA interest is not included in any estimates of tax avoidance.
		
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For the first part - ISAs are a legitimate way for people to avoid tax which is tax avoidance. It is just one of a number of ways to reduce your tax bill. Paying into a pension is another. And tax avoidance isn't just about looking for loopholes in the laws, it's also about using the tax laws as they are written to reduce your tax bill.

For the second part - Why is it clearly not included? As you haven't produced any links or evidence to back up your original statement we are left with no idea what is or isn't included in the Â£7 billion figure that you came up with.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			She didnâ€™t have a decent enough majority to get a deal through. Youâ€™ve only got to look at how many Tories voted against her deal to realise that without the 2017 GE she still would have lost.
		
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It was a gamble she took and lost, but she still failed to take her party with her, then what were saying is she negotiated a deal which she knew she would have to rely on opposition MPâ€™s to support, but at no time gave them any input or insight in to what she was negotiating.
Then blame them for not supporting it!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It was a gamble she took and lost, but she still failed to take her party with her, then what were saying is she negotiated a deal which she knew she would have to rely on opposition MPâ€™s to support, but at no time gave them any input or insight in to what she was negotiating.
Then blame them for not supporting it!
		
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I assume that as a remainer herself TM was hoping to get the support of opposition remainers to get her deal through as what her team negotiated wasn't going to be Brexity enough for most leave supporters on her side.


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## robinthehood (Sep 9, 2019)

re france blocking an extension

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49640344


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I assume that as a remainer herself TM was hoping to get the support of opposition remainers to get her deal through as what her team negotiated wasn't going to be Brexity enough for most leave supporters on her side.
		
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But as the deal has pleased virtually no one, everyone else is to blame.

Thatâ€™s why I said the other day Iâ€™d have no problem with the PM offering to rip her deal up and negotiate properly over a decent period with a No Deal option, ie New deal or No deal by 31st March 2020.
Part of the current issue is that no one trusts him and even Amber Rudd has stated she doubts heâ€™s actually trying to get a deal done.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But as the deal has pleased virtually no one, everyone else is to blame.

Thatâ€™s why I said the other day Iâ€™d have no problem with the PM offering to rip her deal up and negotiate properly over a decent period with a No Deal option, ie New deal or No deal by 31st March 2020.
Part of the current issue is that no one trusts him and even Amber Rudd has stated she doubts heâ€™s actually trying to get a deal done.
		
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There doesn't seem much point. The EU have repeatedly said that the deal is the only one they will offer and it can't be renegotiated and our MPs have refused that deal three times (so far). It will be another 6 months of kicking the, by now very battered, can down the road and we'll end up right back where we are now with remainers wanting legislation brought in to stop a No Deal. It would just lead to another 6 months of uncertainty for businesses and individuals.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			There doesn't seem much point. The EU have repeatedly said that the deal is the only one they will offer and it can't be renegotiated and our MPs have refused that deal three times (so far). It will be another 6 months of kicking the, by now very battered, can down the road and we'll end up right back where we are now with remainers wanting legislation brought in to stop a No Deal. It would just lead to another 6 months of uncertainty for businesses and individuals.
		
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Right now the Government are being forced in to taking no deal off the table because the opposition and some of his own party donâ€™t trust him.

Make it a cross party negotiation team and make sure they have the scope to succeed, I also cannot believe for 1 minute the EU want a No Deal.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Only Wrong in your opinion.

Cameron carried out a manifesto pledge, now we have people on here criticise parties for not carrying out their manifesto promises, you canâ€™t have it both ways.

May then activated Art 50, then called a snap election for no more than vanity reasons, Cameron had gone by then so no blame can be put on him for this reason.

The 2017 created no clear winner, 98 new MPâ€™s were elected (none of whom were in position when Art 50 was voted on and they were voted in by us in full knowledge of referendum result.

May stayed in Government by paying a bung to the DUP, she then had all sorts of issues with her negotiation team, didnâ€™t disclose the plan to many tory MPâ€™s and took no input from any other party during the negotiation process.

You then brought the deal and was voted down by the highest loss in history, spent 3 months trying to bring it back and continually refusing to speak to other parties, finally spoke to them and changed nothing.

We are were we are today because TM and the tory party(who also gave her a vote of confidence but couldnâ€™t back her deal).

The rest, imo, is smoke and mirrors, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP etc have never had any control over the negotiations nor any input to them, yet people expect them to bend over and take one for the tories without the tories expected to do the same.
		
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I actually think this is a good post.

However it should include that if Labour was only half decent, in fact I would go so far as saying that if Labour did not have Jezza and Abacus on the front row. They would of defeated the Tories at the 2017 GE. The very fact that the worst government in living history has an opposition that is the worst in anyone's living memory has helped to make this Brexit a cluster of muck.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			But as the deal has pleased virtually no one, everyone else is to blame.

Thatâ€™s why I said the other day Iâ€™d have no problem with the PM offering to rip her deal up and negotiate properly over a decent period with a No Deal option, ie New deal or No deal by 31st March 2020.
Part of the current issue is that no one trusts him and even Amber Rudd has stated she doubts heâ€™s actually trying to get a deal done.
		
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How do you square the circle when the EU has continually stated they have no intention of offering another deal?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			How do you square the circle when the EU has continually stated they have no intention of offering another deal?
		
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Because I genuinely donâ€™t believe they want a No Deal, at the moment we donâ€™t know how long or how many times the PM will be forced to ask for extensions, so come up with a scenario which has a sensible time frame and lays out the final options.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I actually think this is a good post.

However it should include that if Labour was only half decent, in fact I would go so far as saying that if Labour did not have Jezza and Abacus on the front row. They would of defeated the Tories at the 2017 GE. The very fact that the worst government in living history has an opposition that is the worst in anyone's living memory has helped to make this Brexit a cluster of muck.
		
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I donâ€™t think youâ€™ve remembered the 2017 GE properly mate:

Opinion polls had consistently shown strong leads for the Conservatives over Labour. From a 21-point lead, the Conservatives' lead began to diminish in the final weeks of the campaign. In a surprising result, the Conservative Party made a net loss of 13 seats with 42.4% of the vote (its highest share of the vote since 1983), whereas Labour made a net gain of 30 seats with 40.0% (its highest vote share since 2001 and the first time the party had gained seats since 1997). That is the largest increase in the share of the vote by a Labour leader since Clement Attlee in 1945. This was the closest result between the two major parties since February 1974, and their highest combined vote share since 1970.

The big lead in the polls is what led to TM thinking it was good idea to call it.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because I genuinely donâ€™t believe they want a No Deal, at the moment we donâ€™t know how long or how many times the PM will be forced to ask for extensions, so come up with a scenario which has a sensible time frame and lays out the final options.
		
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But they knew months ago that the deal wasn't acceptable and wouldn't get through our Parliament so no  deal was the only option yet continued to say that is the only deal on offer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			But they knew months ago that the deal wasn't acceptable and wouldn't get through our Parliament so no  deal was the only option yet continued to say that is the only deal on offer.
		
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Months ago TM was still flogging a dead horse and we didnâ€™t know what her next step was. She had surrendered all control to them.

Do you think they want a Non Deal.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Months ago TM was still flogging a dead horse and we didnâ€™t know what her next step was. She had surrendered all control to them.

Do you think they want a Non Deal.
		
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Only the French. The Germans want a Nein Deal and the Dutch want a Nee Deal.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Months ago TM was still flogging a dead horse and we didnâ€™t know what her next step was. She had surrendered all control to them.

Do you think they want a Non Deal.
		
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German industrial leaders appear to be suggesting that no deal and out suits them better than more months of uncertainty which is what business in this country is saying.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

Downing Street has confirmed Parliament is to be prorogued after the close of business tonight, with MPs to return on the 14th October for a Queenâ€™s Speech.
The Queenâ€™s original order allowed Boris to pick any time between today and the 12th. _Hilariously, Bercow has to announce the prorogation order in Parliament, which he wonâ€™t be too pleased aboutâ€¦_


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## drdel (Sep 9, 2019)

So nobody with any sense will keep emails etc. The 'delete history' will be used heavily in the public sector tonight.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			German industrial leaders appear to be suggesting that no deal and out suits them better than more months of uncertainty which is what business in this country is saying.
		
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I thought last week businessâ€™s and the CBI said they were against a No Deal.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I thought last week businessâ€™s and the CBI said they were against a No Deal.
		
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It was the Federation of Small Business boss that was saying it. CBI been very quite lately.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			So nobody with any sense will keep emails etc. The 'delete history' will be used heavily in the public sector tonight.
		
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And hopefully they were sensible enough to use the Bcc option


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## Hobbit (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It was a gamble she took and lost, but she still failed to take her party with her, then what were saying is she negotiated a deal which she knew she would have to rely on opposition MPâ€™s to support, but at no time gave them any input or insight in to what she was negotiating.
Then blame them for not supporting it!
		
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First of all you said she had a decent enough majority, now you're saying she didn't without opposition MP's. You're losing me Paul.

She is totally to blame, without any shadow of doubt. She tried to do it her way without taking her Cabinet and party with her. I believe she tried to satisfy Leave AND Remain and ended up falling right in the middle and not satisfying anyone.

What that does show is that the Remianers in Parliament weren't happy with a Brino deal. If they could at least be honest, they are still fighting to overturn the original result.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 9, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t think youâ€™ve remembered the 2017 GE properly mate:

Opinion polls had consistently shown strong leads for the Conservatives over Labour. From a 21-point lead, the Conservatives' lead began to diminish in the final weeks of the campaign. In a surprising result, the Conservative Party made a net loss of 13 seats with 42.4% of the vote (its highest share of the vote since 1983), whereas Labour made a net gain of 30 seats with 40.0% (its highest vote share since 2001 and the first time the party had gained seats since 1997). That is the largest increase in the share of the vote by a Labour leader since Clement Attlee in 1945. This was the closest result between the two major parties since February 1974, and their highest combined vote share since 1970.

The big lead in the polls is what led to TM thinking it was good idea to call it.
		
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True but the arrogant cow thought she could take the P with her terrible manifesto and it bit her on the arse. (ðŸ¤¢) 
I wish Labour had a different front bench because even though I am i life-long Tory I really think once Brexit is done they could do with a spell in opposition.


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## drdel (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And hopefully they were sensible enough to use the Bcc option 

Click to expand...

Some new phones purchased tonight.

IMO the Grievers' clan has shown yet more of what a vindictive process they seem to be follow completely devoid of any democratic basis and respect for the result of the referendum and the Official Secret Act that government employees are expected to follow!

As if the HoC can sink lower


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			First of all you said she had a decent enough majority, now you're saying she didn't without opposition MP's. You're losing me Paul.

She is totally to blame, without any shadow of doubt. She tried to do it her way without taking her Cabinet and party with her. I believe she tried to satisfy Leave AND Remain and ended up falling right in the middle and not satisfying anyone.

What that does show is that the Remianers in Parliament weren't happy with a Brino deal. If they could at least be honest, they are still fighting to overturn the original result.
		
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I was clarifying what I believed OS was saying to me, breakdown between my head and fingers.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 9, 2019)

Revealed: Olly Robbins, Theresa Mayâ€™s chief Brexit negotiator, is joining the Wall Street giant Goldman Sachs as a senior member of its banking team based in London. The appointment has been approved by the ACOBA committee in Whitehall. Announcement expected imminently. 
Olly Robbins taking very highly paid position with Goldman Sachs - one of the banks that funded the Remain campaign, I believe.


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## Mudball (Sep 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I presume stating the obvious "We have already had a referendum " is lost on some.
		
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Just as .. the country is in a deadlock seems to be lost on some too..  letâ€™s all stick our head in the sand and keep repeating â€˜Ref doneâ€™, â€˜take back controlâ€™, â€˜doom and gloomâ€™ etc etc


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Just as .. the country is in a deadlock seems to be lost on some too..  letâ€™s all stick our head in the sand and keep repeating â€˜Ref doneâ€™, â€˜take back controlâ€™, â€˜doom and gloomâ€™ etc etc
		
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The country isn't in deadlock, Leavers won and the Losers are inventing ways to make it seem they lost.


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## Beezerk (Sep 9, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Just as .. the country is in a deadlock seems to be lost on some too..  letâ€™s all stick our head in the sand and keep repeating â€˜Ref doneâ€™, â€˜take back controlâ€™, â€˜doom and gloomâ€™ etc etc
		
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No, the arseholes we elected to be MP's are deadlocked not the general public. The general public have already had their say, but like you say, stick our heads in the sand and don't accept the result...


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## User62651 (Sep 10, 2019)

Midnight plus and I'm watching a commons debate, wtf? Half of em unsurprisingly are half asleep. Substance is just the same old same old.

Noted earlier sky news reporting no.10 thinking 280-300 mps for Cons at next election, good way short of an outright majority. In that regard GE would not resolve Brexit or help Boris.

Will it ever end?ðŸ¤


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

Maybots losers recieving honours.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 10, 2019)

I'm off to Europe on Saturday. How long have we been in the EU? Still charges on cards used over there. The whole of the EU is a con, to get money from us. We pay BILLIONS to be in it, and they still rip us off when we go there????????


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 10, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			I'm off to Europe on Saturday. How long have we been in the EU? *Still charges on cards used over there*. The whole of the EU is a con, to get money from us. We pay BILLIONS to be in it, and they still rip us off when we go there????????
		
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You need to change bank or upgrade your account then. No charges for me to use my HSBC debit card for purchases or cash withdrawals.


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## woody69 (Sep 10, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			I'm off to Europe on Saturday. How long have we been in the EU? Still charges on cards used over there. The whole of the EU is a con, to get money from us. We pay BILLIONS to be in it, and they still rip us off when we go there????????
		
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What on earth are you talking about?


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## robinthehood (Sep 10, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			I'm off to Europe on Saturday. How long have we been in the EU? Still charges on cards used over there. The whole of the EU is a con, to get money from us. We pay BILLIONS to be in it, and they still rip us off when we go there????????
		
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Any number of banks and cards with zero charges for travel money. Perhaps shop around a bit.


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## jp5 (Sep 10, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Will it ever end?ðŸ¤
		
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It's barely even started  will be the focus for decades to come


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## rudebhoy (Sep 10, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			I'm off to Europe on Saturday. How long have we been in the EU? Still charges on cards used over there. The whole of the EU is a con, to get money from us. We pay BILLIONS to be in it, and they still rip us off when we go there????????
		
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Unbelievable!

As others have pointed out, it's the banks who are ripping you off, not the EU. And it was the EU who recently outlawed credit card surcharges for domestic as well as international purchases.


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2019)

rudebhoy said:





Colonel Bogey said:



			I'm off to Europe on Saturday. How long have we been in the EU? Still charges on cards used over there. The whole of the EU is a con, to get money from us. We pay BILLIONS to be in it, and they still rip us off when we go there????????
		
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Unbelievable!

As others have pointed out, it's the banks who are ripping you off, not the EU. And it was the EU who recently outlawed credit card surcharges for domestic as well as international purchases.
		
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Just shows how easy it was for the leave propoganda to work!

Imagine how different things would be if just 3% of voters hadn't voted Leave!


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## rudebhoy (Sep 10, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			Unbelievable!

As others have pointed out, it's the banks who are ripping you off, not the EU. And it was the EU who recently outlawed credit card surcharges for domestic as well as international purchases.
		
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Also worth noting, if we had joined the eurozone, the money in your pocket would be worth a fair bit more than it is now :

Jan 2003 pound vs euro 1.60 now 1.11
Jan 2003 pound vs dollar 1.60 now 1.23
Jan 2003 euro vs dollar 1.10 now 1.12


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Just shows how easy it was for the leave propoganda to work!

Imagine how different things would be if just 3% of voters hadn't voted Leave!
		
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Its just as easy to level the same point to the propogands used by remain. Maybe there would have been a substantial leave majority without it.

Who knows either way.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			Also worth noting, if we had joined the eurozone, the money in your pocket would be worth a fair bit more than it is now :

Jan 2003 pound vs euro 1.60 now 1.11
Jan 2003 pound vs dollar 1.60 now 1.23
Jan 2003 euro vs dollar 1.10 now 1.12
		
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If my aunt had a willy she'd be my uncle.


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## rudebhoy (Sep 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Just shows how easy it was for the leave propoganda to work!

Imagine how different things would be if just 3% of voters hadn't voted Leave!
		
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was at the gym yesterday, some guy was spouting forth about how Boris was right and was the only person who was trying to deliver what the people had voted for. I pointed out not one person had voted for a no deal because that wasn't an option. At the time we were being told we would get a fantastic deal. 

If 17m people had voted for a clear no deal, then there would be no legitimate reason for delaying it in order to try to get a deal.


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## rudebhoy (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If my aunt had a willy she'd be my uncle.
		
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is that the best you can come up with? really?


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If my aunt had a willy she'd be my uncle.
		
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Or in the circus!

Which is what the entire exercise seems to have been!


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2019)

What will the media do for the next 5 weeks? Presumably Boris will keep touring Europe, speaking to leaders etc but largely the whole furore will die down? Not a bad thing really. Hopefully a chink of light will appear, a small compromise can be found. If I was Boris I would be asking those leaders why would they extend for 3 months? What do they think will happen to break the logjam as at this point the opposition have no new idea to actually take things forward other than they don't actually want a no deal? They can tell you what they don't want, not what they do want. Set them thinking. October 31st could still be the leave date.

Incidentally, if anyone's Aunt has a willy but wants to be known as your Aunt still then in this modern era she can be, apparently.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 10, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			was at the gym yesterday, some guy was spouting forth about how Boris was right and was the only person who was trying to deliver what the people had voted for. I pointed out not one person had voted for a no deal because that wasn't an option. At the time we were being told we would get a fantastic deal.

If 17m people had voted for a clear no deal, then there would be no legitimate reason for delaying it in order to try to get a deal.
		
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The flip side of that is that not one person voted for a deal because that wasn't an option. The only options were leave or remain. 

The EU have negotiated a deal which they say is the only one on offer and can't be changed. Our MPs have rejected that deal 3 times which leaves No Deal or Revoke Article 50 as the only options left to us. Much as I would like to see Article 50 revoked and for us to stay in the EU I'm not convinced that is a viable solution. My feeling is that if the government had been left to get on with it, and No Deal had been kept on the table as an option, then we would have left with a deal on 31st October. The HoCs removing No Deal as an option and forcing the PM to ask for an extension has removed pretty much the only bargaining chip that the EU would have been concerned about. They wouldn't have been entitled to all of the 39 billion that was agreed previously as some of that was payable during the transition period which in the event of No Deal there wouldn't have been one and that would have left a massive hole in their finances.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What will the media do for the next 5 weeks? Presumably Boris will keep touring Europe, speaking to leaders etc but largely the whole furore will die down? Not a bad thing really. Hopefully a chink of light will appear, a small compromise can be found. If I was Boris I would be asking those leaders why would they extend for 3 months? What do they think will happen to break the logjam as at this point the opposition have no new idea to actually take things forward other than they don't actually want a no deal? They can tell you what they don't want, not what they do want. Set them thinking. October 31st could still be the leave date.

Incidentally, if anyone's Aunt has a willy but wants to be known as your Aunt still then in this modern era she can be, apparently.
		
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Boris keeps saying he wants a deal, surely by 17th Oct he will have secured that deal and get it through Parliament on their return, you do believe him donâ€™t you? Otherwise you could be making out he doesnâ€™t want a deal and wants the EU to kick us out so he can say he tried everything he could. 
You could also argue Labour was willing to back TMâ€™s plan with a few changes, so some of the opposition might have a plan if given the chance to formally speak to the EU.
The EU have extended the deadline and itâ€™s us who have stood still, not them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The flip side of that is that not one person voted for a deal because that wasn't an option. The only options were leave or remain.

The EU have negotiated a deal which they say is the only one on offer and can't be changed. Our MPs have rejected that deal 3 times which leaves No Deal or Revoke Article 50 as the only options left to us. Much as I would like to see Article 50 revoked and for us to stay in the EU I'm not convinced that is a viable solution. *My feeling is that if the government had been left to get on with it, and No Deal had been kept on the table as an option, then we would have left with a deal on 31st October.* The HoCs removing No Deal as an option and forcing the PM to ask for an extension has removed pretty much the only bargaining chip that the EU would have been concerned about. They wouldn't have been entitled to all of the 39 billion that was agreed previously as some of that was payable during the transition period which in the event of No Deal there wouldn't have been one and that would have left a massive hole in their finances.
		
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Surely after Amber Rudd resigned and stated she believes heâ€™s after a No Deal you still donâ€™t believe the Government spin.
She was on the inside of No 10.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Any number of banks and cards with zero charges for travel money. Perhaps shop around a bit.
		
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Sorry, I've found a card that I've got that works for free.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Boris keeps saying he wants a deal, surely by 17th Oct he will have secured that deal and get it through Parliament on their return, you do believe him donâ€™t you? Otherwise you could be making out he doesnâ€™t want a deal and wants the EU to kick us out so he can say he tried everything he could.
*You could also argue Labour was willing to back TMâ€™s plan with a few changes, *so *some of the opposition might have a plan* if given the chance to formally speak to the EU.
The EU have extended the deadline and itâ€™s us who have stood still, not them.
		
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Even after several Labour MPs have said that if they were in power they would talk to the EU about the deal, put it to a 2nd referendum and then vote against that deal? So it appears that this week's plan from Labour is to negotiate a deal with the EU and reject that deal in favour of remaining. But it will all be OK as they will have changed that position by next week and Baldrick Corbyn will have a whole new cunning plan.


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its just as easy to level the same point to the propogands used by remain. Maybe there would have been a substantial leave majority without it.

Who knows either way.
		
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It's my view that there was far less actual 'propoganda' and the claims (both ''real' and exaggerated (so 'propoganda')) that were made by Remain were far easier (to) 'put down'. Many of the (imo) real claims were simply either deemed to be 'propoganda', or written off as either 'scaremongering' or 'we'll sort that out as part of (or after) The Deal!'. Basically, the Leave campaign was at an advantage because it's easier to criticise the way things currently (don't) wotk compared to showing the benefits of how well things currently work. And that would even have been the case without the 'dishonesty on an industrial scale' of the Leave bunch.

Basically, Remain was always going to be 'harder to sell' than Leave - imo!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely after Amber Rudd resigned and stated she believes heâ€™s after a No Deal you still donâ€™t believe the Government spin.
She was on the inside of No 10.
		
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Why should I believe any of them. Why believe Rudd and not Johnson? Her criticism seemed to be that 80/90% of the efforts were going in to No Deal preparation. The government has been slated for not preparing for no deal previously and now is getting slated for preparing for no deal. It was just my feeling of what would have happened. I think with the threat of No Deal on the table the EU would have made some minor adjustments to the agreement that would have enabled it to get through the HOCs. It wouldn't have been enough to please the extremes on either side but could well have been enough to get a majority. Just my opinion and nothing to do with government spin.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 10, 2019)

Also, on the deal thing, even if Boris come back with a deal that works, and Lord know what that will have to be to satisfy the Remainers, I suppose basically to stay in, which he will not be asking for, would the Remainers vote for it? I seriously doubt it, as they have slagged BJ off from the start....and lets face it he's done nothing yet, so how can they slag a bloke off who's not been able to actaully do anything. Apart from switch off the lights in the HOC, which is no bad thing as they were going round and round saying the same things over and over. Totally pointless.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 10, 2019)

And why are the Remainers believing everything the EU clowns are saying and not our own representatives???? Who says the EU don't lie?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2019)

Brexit on NI by a staunch Brexit Voter (ex).  Peter Oborne - Daily Mail chief political columnist/commentator in Bessbrook.  Let's not forget as too many seem willing and able to do.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It's my view that there was far less actual 'propoganda' and the claims (both ''real' and exaggerated (so 'propoganda')) that were made by Remain were far easier (to) 'put down'. Many of the (imo) real claims were simply either deemed to be 'propoganda', or written off as either 'scaremongering' or 'we'll sort that out as part of (or after) The Deal!'. Basically, the Leave campaign was at an advantage because it's easier to criticise the way things currently (don't) wotk compared to showing the benefits of how well things currently work. And that would even have been the case without the 'dishonesty on an industrial scale' of the Leave bunch.

Basically, Remain was always going to be 'harder to sell' than Leave - imo!
		
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Just take a look back at the dishonesty on an 'industrial' scale of exaggerated claims made by the likes of Cameron, Osborne and Carney before the referendum, these were eye watering BS.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 10, 2019)

Still, for me, the political classes were never going to take instruction from the electorate... Never have never will...

Have become ever more resigned we are stuck with Brussels...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even after several Labour MPs have said that if they were in power they would talk to the EU about the deal, put it to a 2nd referendum and then vote against that deal? So it appears that this week's plan from Labour is to negotiate a deal with the EU and reject that deal in favour of remaining. But it will all be OK as they will have changed that position by next week and Baldrick Corbyn will have a whole new cunning plan.
		
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This came up last week, doing their job for the good of the Country and personal reasons can easily be 2 different things, no different to what TM was expected to do by all those who voted her in as leader.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why should I believe any of them. Why believe Rudd and not Johnson? Her criticism seemed to be that 80/90% of the efforts were going in to No Deal preparation. The government has been slated for not preparing for no deal previously and now is getting slated for preparing for no deal. It was just my feeling of what would have happened. I think with the threat of No Deal on the table the EU would have made some minor adjustments to the agreement that would have enabled it to get through the HOCs. It wouldn't have been enough to please the extremes on either side but could well have been enough to get a majority. Just my opinion and nothing to do with government spin.
		
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Johnson is a known liar, he has form, heâ€™s been sacked twice for lying and even last week was rebuked by the Yorkshire Police for being sly.
Why would ministers (incl his own brother) resign weeks after joining him. Surely alarm bells are ringing somewhere.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			And why are the Remainers believing everything the EU clowns are saying and not our own representatives???? Who says the EU don't lie?
		
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Which remainers are those? The ones who give bad credit card advice?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Brexit on NI by a staunch Brexit Voter (ex).  Peter Oborne - Daily Mail chief political columnist/commentator in Bessbrook.  Let's not forget as too many seem willing and able to do.







Click to expand...

More exaggerated nonsense. There will be no hard border and what exactly has it got to do with the way terrorists operated in NI. If terrorists start shooting people its nothing to do with Custom arrangements its because of evil murderous people venting their ignorant dogma


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Boris keeps saying he wants a deal, surely by 17th Oct he will have secured that deal and get it through Parliament on their return, you do believe him donâ€™t you? Otherwise you could be making out he doesnâ€™t want a deal and wants the EU to kick us out so he can say he tried everything he could.
You could also argue Labour was willing to back TMâ€™s plan with a few changes, so some of the opposition might have a plan if given the chance to formally speak to the EU.
The EU have extended the deadline and itâ€™s us who have stood still, not them.
		
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The priority for Boris is to leave. Period. I am sure he would like a deal, it would be illogical not to want one, but he is prepared to leave without one as that is his overiding priority. He has been clear about that, like it or not. TM said she would but she didn't mean it, the EU used that. I think Boris does, that is the key difference.

A major part of his strategy is convincing the EU that he will leave on Oct 31st and it is better for all to leave with some form of deal rather than no deal. He needs that threat as otherwise they will not budge at all, as they have shown. It may not come off but without that threat has anyone seen any sign from the EU that they will move on a deal that has been soundly defeated 3 times already?

The only deal on the table has been turned down 3 times by some degree. If that deal is dead something has to change or we remain in stasis for ever more. When do we say no more? When do the EU say no more? How many times does Brexit get delayed for no reason other than for the sake of delaying?


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Johnson is a known liar, he has form, heâ€™s been sacked twice for lying and even last week was rebuked by the Yorkshire Police for being sly.
Why would ministers (incl his own brother) resign weeks after joining him. Surely alarm bells are ringing somewhere.
		
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Amber Rudd lied to Commons Home Affairs Select Committee about immigration targets for removals. Yes she resigned rather than being sacked but presumably would have been sacked if she hadn't. 

As for his brother, there are several stories about pressure being brought on him by his wife, who just happens to be a left-wing remain supporter, that it was either her or Boris. He chose her.

As I said previously, why believe any of them? You using Amber Rudd's resignation as a stick to beat Boris and call him a liar is a bit one sided when she is also a proven liar.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The priority for Boris is to leave. Period. I am sure he would like a deal, it would be illogical not to want one, but he is prepared to leave without one as that is his overiding priority. He has been clear about that, like it or not. TM said she would but she didn't mean it, the EU used that. I think Boris does, that is the key difference.

A major part of his strategy is convincing the EU that he will leave on Oct 31st and it is better for all to leave with some form of deal rather than no deal. He needs that threat as otherwise they will not budge at all, as they have shown. It may not come off but without that threat has anyone seen any sign from the EU that they will move on a deal that has been soundly defeated 3 times already?

The only deal on the table has been turned down 3 times by some degree. If that deal is dead something has to change or we remain in stasis for ever more. When do we say no more? When do the EU say no more? How many times does Brexit get delayed for no reason other than for the sake of delaying?
		
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I agree with all of that however its obvious that many want nothing but Remain and will use any means to obtain it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Amber Rudd lied to Commons Home Affairs Select Committee about immigration targets for removals. Yes she resigned rather than being sacked but presumably would have been sacked if she hadn't.

As for his brother, there are several stories about pressure being brought on him by his wife, who just happens to be a left-wing remain supporter, that it was either her or Boris. He chose her.

As I said previously, why believe any of them? You using Amber Rudd's resignation as a stick to beat Boris and call him a liar is a bit one sided when she is also a proven liar.
		
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Amber Rudd is merely the latest example, seems to me people are happy to ignore the PMâ€™s past to the possible detriment of this Country.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Johnson is a known liar, he has form, heâ€™s been sacked twice for lying and even last week was rebuked by the Yorkshire Police for being sly.
Why would ministers (incl his own brother) resign weeks after joining him. Surely alarm bells are ringing somewhere.
		
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This 'Liar' card is the latest lazy insult being thrown around to support weak arguments, it now taken over the 'Racist' tag.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The priority for Boris is to leave. Period. I am sure he would like a deal, it would be illogical not to want one, but he is prepared to leave without one as that is his overiding priority. He has been clear about that, like it or not. TM said she would but she didn't mean it, the EU used that. I think Boris does, that is the key difference.

A major part of his strategy is convincing the EU that he will leave on Oct 31st and it is better for all to leave with some form of deal rather than no deal. He needs that threat as otherwise they will not budge at all, as they have shown. It may not come off but without that threat has anyone seen any sign from the EU that they will move on a deal that has been soundly defeated 3 times already?

The only deal on the table has been turned down 3 times by some degree. If that deal is dead something has to change or we remain in stasis for ever more. When do we say no more? When do the EU say no more? How many times does Brexit get delayed for no reason other than for the sake of delaying?
		
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He also backed TMâ€™s deal, no trust in him whatsoever, his priority is him and his mates and like you say, heâ€™s determined to take us out without a deal, something he stated he didnâ€™t want during the referendum and he has not explained how it would be better for the Country, all we keep hearing is how he doesnâ€™t want it, itâ€™s a bargaining chip, whatâ€™s his fallback if they call his bluff? Blame them?


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Just take a look back at the dishonesty on an 'industrial' scale of exaggerated claims made by the likes of Cameron, Osborne and Carney before the referendum, these were eye watering BS.
		
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I have!* IMO*, nowhere near the level of Leave (and their media fans). I totally agree with Prof Dougan's descriptions of Leave campaign 'industrial scale dishonesty' and Remain's 'haven't exactly covered themselves in glory'.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			This 'Liar' card is the latest lazy insult being thrown around to support weak arguments, it now taken over the 'Racist' tag.
		
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From the man who keeps calling remainers losers, advice from you? No thanks.


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			This 'Liar' card is the latest lazy insult being thrown around to support weak arguments, it now taken over the 'Racist' tag.
		
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I'm afraid BoJo has been a/the major cause of that! For the very reason that he has simply been caught telling porkies so often! Gove, on the other hand, simply doesn't tell the whole truth - an approach that is, imo, quite reasonable/to be expected, though it still doesn't stop me detesting him almost as much!


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## drdel (Sep 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



*The priority for Boris is to leave. *Period. I am sure he would like a deal, it would be illogical not to want one, but he is prepared to leave without one as that is his overiding priority. He has been clear about that, like it or not. TM said she would but she didn't mean it, the EU used that. I think Boris does, that is the key difference.

A major part of his strategy is convincing the EU that he will leave on Oct 31st and it is better for all to leave with some form of deal rather than no deal. He needs that threat as otherwise they will not budge at all, as they have shown. It may not come off but without that threat has anyone seen any sign from the EU that they will move on a deal that has been soundly defeated 3 times already?

The only deal on the table has been turned down 3 times by some degree. If that deal is dead something has to change or we remain in stasis for ever more. When do we say no more? When do the EU say no more? How many times does Brexit get delayed for no reason other than for the sake of delaying?
		
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You stated "The priority for Boris is to leave."

If my memory serves me right that's exactly what the main parties promised before the referendum and after the 'leave' vote result and MPs sanctioned Art50 by a very large majority; so I'm not sure it's fair to personalise it and paint it as solely a Boris decision.


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			...My feeling is that if the government had been left to get on with it, and No Deal had been kept on the table as an option, then we would have left with a deal on 31st October. The HoCs removing No Deal as an option and forcing the PM to ask for an extension has removed pretty much the only bargaining chip that the EU would have been concerned about. They wouldn't have been entitled to all of the 39 billion that was agreed previously as some of that was payable during the transition period which in the event of No Deal there wouldn't have been one and that would have left a massive hole in their finances.
		
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I don't believe any *truly* better deal would have resulted.

The threat of No Deal still exists!


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## Beezerk (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Boris keeps saying he wants a deal, surely by 17th Oct he will have secured that deal and get it through Parliament on their return, you do believe him donâ€™t you? Otherwise you could be making out he doesnâ€™t want a deal and wants the EU to kick us out so he can say he tried everything he could.
You could also argue Labour was willing to back TMâ€™s plan with a few changes, so some of the opposition might have a plan if given the chance to formally speak to the EU.
The EU have extended the deadline and itâ€™s us who have stood still, not them.
		
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I believe any deal, no matter how good will get voted down in the HOC.


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I believe any deal, no matter how good will get voted down in the HOC.
		
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Likewise!

That's why I believe 'No Deal by Default' is the only possible outcome that follows the Referendum result.

And, much as I detest Bojo for other things, I believe that's what he's working towards.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I believe any deal, no matter how good will get voted down in the HOC.
		
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So all other options should be explored before we rush in to the No Deal.


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## Beezerk (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So all other options should be explored before we rush in to the No Deal.
		
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Well yes but what options are there? Nothing will get through the HOC, Lib Dems and Labour have already stated that in not so many words. Then again Labour are all over the shop so they may change their minds if the wind blows from the South.


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## drdel (Sep 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Likewise!

That's why I believe 'No Deal by Default' is the only possible outcome.
		
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I think logically that's right perhaps helped because revoking Art50 is a major challenge even though Swinson has declared that to be the Lib Dem position.

There's still the risk IMO of a minority government after a GE and that will keep this circus performing back flips but after a few more months of extensions the EU might shut the door.

I see France is going to seek emergency aid from the EU to help with the cost of Brexit e.g. port expansion etc - 'emergency aid' really I'm sure the Bahamas would agree on the French/EU priorities!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			From the man who keeps calling remainers losers, advice from you? No thanks.
		
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Unless you can prove that accusation then I'm calling it a Lie.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Well yes but what options are there? Nothing will get through the HOC, Lib Dems and Labour have already stated that in not so many words. Then again Labour are all over the shop so they may change their minds if the wind blows from the South.
		
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So maybe itâ€™s time for all sides to come together, the tories are still the only ones negotiating, theyâ€™ve refused input from all opposition parties in the past, insist on going it alone and then blame everyone else when itâ€™s going wrong.
Do you think Boris would of got a deal through if heâ€™d of had 2 years of negotiations?
Look at the time the tories have wasted since the extension till 31 Oct was agreed:

Extension agreed 11th April.

TM brings ger deal back with no changes.

TM resigns, nothing done until Boris elected 24 May - 29 July.
4 months wasted out of that extension.

6 months sounded a long time in reality itâ€™ll be 2.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Unless you can prove that accusation then I'm calling it a Lie.
		
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You really are losing credibility whilst acting like a 12yr old.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I have!* IMO*, nowhere near the level of Leave (and their media fans). I totally agree with Prof Dougan's descriptions of Leave campaign 'industrial scale dishonesty' and Remain's 'haven't exactly covered themselves in glory'.
		
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And *IMO* project fear was a remain policy and worse than anything written on a bus.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You really are losing credibility whilst acting like a 12yr old.
		
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So you cant substantiate your accusation.  I thought so ðŸ™„


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			You stated "The priority for Boris is to leave."

If my memory serves me right that's exactly what the main parties promised before the referendum and after the 'leave' vote result and MPs sanctioned Art50 by a very large majority; so I'm not sure it's fair to personalise it and paint it as solely a Boris decision.
		
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Everyone who signed up for the Article 50 bill stated they wanted the UK to leave, in a round about way, but some are clearly keener than others. Some are now not so keen or only want it to happen after certain criteria have been met, some of which are unlikely. Boris stood for Conservative leader with a clear message that he wanted to take the country out of the EU no matter what by Oct 31st. He is not saying Oct 31st as long as the stars align, he is saying Oct 31st ideally with a deal but if not we go anyway. I genuinely believe he means that.

I am not saying that I agree with him but I do believe that if left to his own devices he would have the country leave come what may by that date. That is a different situation to the one we have been in before.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So you cant substantiate your accusation.  I thought so ðŸ™„
		
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It was your interactions and posts with others that had the thread closed the other day and not for the first time, maybe you need to take a look at your posting style, it canâ€™t always be someone elseâ€™s fault.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It was your interactions and posts with others that had the thread closed the other day and not for the first time, maybe you need to take a look at your posting style, it canâ€™t always be someone elseâ€™s fault.
		
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Please show where I have called Remainers 'Losers' or retract it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Please show where I have called Remainers 'Losers' or retract it.
		
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Have a look at post #12,833 from last night.

I will now stop replying to you, please do the same for me.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Unless you can prove that accusation then I'm calling it a Lie.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			The country isn't in deadlock, Leavers won and the *Losers are *inventing ways to make it seem they lost.
		
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The thread is full of insults and derogatory comments and a lot these days seem to be coming from people who voted to leave


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The thread is full of insults and derogatory comments and a lot these days seem to be coming from people who voted to leave
		
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That term 'Losers' was used not as a derogatory term against people who voted to remain, it was used as the opposite term to winning the referendum, like in a race, someone wins and someone loses.  And you know it.


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That term Losers was used not as a derogatory term against people who voted to remain, it was used as the opposite term to winning the election, like in a race, someone wins and someone loses.  And you know it.
		
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Challenge proven though!

End of!


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## PieMan (Sep 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The thread is full of insults and derogatory comments and a lot these days seem to be coming from people who voted to leave
		
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In keeping with the pantomime that this thread has become - 'oh no they're not'............

[over to you! ]


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## oxymoron (Sep 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The thread is full of insults and derogatory comments and a lot these days seem to be coming from people who voted to leave
		
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I don't know how you can really say that it seems to be an even split to me , however i do agree with you about this thread it is a shame that it has descended to the level it has . I wonder if some posters now want to wind people up rather than contribute to a level headed discussion .


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Challenge proven though!

End of!
		
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Er What?  No its not, I have not called Remainers losers in the way the accuser has suggested.


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## PieMan (Sep 10, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			I don't know how you can really say that it seems to be an even split to me , however i do agree with you about this thread it is a shame that it has descended to the level it has . I wonder if some posters now want to wind people up rather than contribute to a level headed discussion .
		
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Same for about 95% of all the other threads on the Forum!!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Challenge proven though!

End of!
		
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Heâ€™s deflected on to LP rather than answer me, the silence in that respect is deafening!
Still I do believe I prefer the silence, I certainly wonâ€™t be demanding an apology.


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## Foxholer (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Er What?  No its not, I have not called Remainers losers in the way the accuser has suggested.
		
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That may, or may not be true. But your challenge was answered with an instance that satisfied your demand! Therefore...challenge proven (or 'satisfied')!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			I don't know how you can really say that it seems to be an even split to me , however i do agree with you about this thread it is a shame that it has descended to the level it has . I wonder if some posters now want to wind people up rather than contribute to a level headed discussion .
		
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I guess Iâ€™m just skim reading these days and things like â€œremoanersâ€ and losers etc keep appearing but you are prob right - it will be both sides 

It is amusing at times the hypocrisy- one side complains about insults but then tries to defend the insults from their own side and vice versa 

The whole thing now is a childish pantomime both on the thread and even in the HoC - as each day goes by it just gets worse. 

I donâ€™t want to even think what it is going to be like when the next extension happens


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## woody69 (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			More exaggerated nonsense. There will be no hard border and what exactly has it got to do with the way terrorists operated in NI. If terrorists start shooting people its nothing to do with Custom arrangements its because of evil murderous people venting their ignorant dogma
		
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So speaking to people who live in the region and grew up in that area through the troubles is just exaggerated nonsense? Is it exaggerated nonsense because it doesn't align with your opinion, or because you know something many people don't?

If there is no hard border, i.e. infrastructure from cameras to buildings where trucks can be stopped for purposes of checking paperwork and cargo are you suggesting there will be no impact on the peace process? Perhaps you can you suggest a viable alternative for the checks that will be required for goods moving between the EU and the UK assuming the "undemocratic" back-stop is dropped?


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## Hobbit (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			He also backed TMâ€™s deal, no trust in him whatsoever, his priority is him and his mates and like you say, heâ€™s determined to take us out without a deal, something he stated he didnâ€™t want during the referendum and he has not explained how it would be better for the Country, all we keep hearing is how he doesnâ€™t want it, itâ€™s a bargaining chip, whatâ€™s his fallback if they call his bluff? Blame them?
		
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I can understand the beat Boris stick. He is a liar of the first water. But come on. Lets look past his behaviour and ask the question just who do we believe? Boris? No. Corbyn? No. McDonnell? Hell no with knobs on. Swinson? No. Farage? No. Blair, Major & Brown? No.

Is Boris the right person to deliver on Brexit? Yes he probably is. Is he the right person to get a deal? That's a little harder. I like the fact he's sailing close to the wind in forcing the issue but I'm not convinced he genuinely wants a deal, i.e. I don't trust him. But I see him as someone who since the initial referendum when he campaigned as a Leaver he's remained one of the true Leavers. He's hardly flip-flopped like many.

There isn't a deal out there that will be better for European trade than the UK already has, and I believe there's too many people in Parliament and outside it that won't accept that. And that brings us back to what does the rest of the world have to offer in terms of trade, and is it enough to balance the sovereignty etc that people also wanted.

Whatever, I feel bashing Boris for many things is fair but I'd also ask the question, just what do you suggest is the best way to enable Brexit.


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## woody69 (Sep 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I can understand the beat Boris stick. He is a liar of the first water. But come on. Lets look past his behaviour and ask the question just who do we believe? Boris? No. Corbyn? No. McDonnell? Hell no with knobs on. Swinson? No. Farage? No. Blair, Major & Brown? No.

Is Boris the right person to deliver on Brexit? Yes he probably is. Is he the right person to get a deal? That's a little harder. I like the fact he's sailing close to the wind in forcing the issue but I'm not convinced he genuinely wants a deal, i.e. I don't trust him. But I see him as someone who since the initial referendum when he campaigned as a Leaver he's remained one of the true Leavers. He's hardly flip-flopped like many.

There isn't a deal out there that will be better for European trade than the UK already has, and I believe there's too many people in Parliament and outside it that won't accept that. And that brings us back to what does the rest of the world have to offer in terms of trade, and is it enough to balance the sovereignty etc that people also wanted.

Whatever, I feel bashing Boris for many things is fair but I'd also ask the question, just what do you suggest is the best way to enable Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure he's a "true leaver" considering his unpublished article on why we should remain.

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-vs-boris-johnson-brexit-arguments-for-and-against-10619817

Like most in this whole sorry affair he saw more personal opportunity backing leave


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## oxymoron (Sep 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess Iâ€™m just skim reading these days and things like â€œremoanersâ€ and losers etc keep appearing but you are prob right - it will be both sides

It is amusing at times the hypocrisy- one side complains about insults but then tries to defend the insults from their own side and vice versa

The whole thing now is a childish pantomime both on the thread and even in the HoC - as each day goes by it just gets worse.

I donâ€™t want to even think what it is going to be like when the next extension happens
		
Click to expand...

You hit the nail square on the head i think , next extension ? God almighty whats the record for a thread length ? We could be in for the long haul with this topic.


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## rudebhoy (Sep 10, 2019)

How exactly is BJ going to get a deal when there is no negotiations going on? 

For what it's worth, I think he could get a deal that would be acceptable to the HOC - move the hard border to the Irish Sea. The DUP will hate it, but he is no longer dependent on them as even with their bought votes, he can't get a majority. But I suspect the majority of MPs would go for the above - might be a vote loser in NI, but do the mainstream parties really care about that? The nationalist parties in NI will also be happy with that arrangement as it's one step closer to a united Ireland.

If one good thing has come from sacking the 21, it's that the DUP have lost their grip on the balance of power.


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## robinthehood (Sep 10, 2019)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news...rom-arguing-with-brexit-fkwits-20160713110699


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I can understand the beat Boris stick. He is a liar of the first water. But come on. Lets look past his behaviour and ask the question just who do we believe? Boris? No. Corbyn? No. McDonnell? Hell no with knobs on. Swinson? No. Farage? No. Blair, Major & Brown? No.

Is Boris the right person to deliver on Brexit? Yes he probably is. Is he the right person to get a deal? That's a little harder. I like the fact he's sailing close to the wind in forcing the issue but I'm not convinced he genuinely wants a deal, i.e. I don't trust him. But I see him as someone who since the initial referendum when he campaigned as a Leaver he's remained one of the true Leavers. He's hardly flip-flopped like many.

There isn't a deal out there that will be better for European trade than the UK already has, and I believe there's too many people in Parliament and outside it that won't accept that. And that brings us back to what does the rest of the world have to offer in terms of trade, and is it enough to balance the sovereignty etc that people also wanted.

Whatever, I feel bashing Boris for many things is fair but I'd also ask the question, just what do you suggest is the best way to enable Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

I have no issue with parts of what you say and I have said that if heâ€™d be realistic about a proper time frame to try and negotiate a better deal then Iâ€™d have more faith (not all his fault for the months wasted after TM resigned), unfortunately I believe the bull in the china shop and who blinks first approach has backfired.
The fact his approach has united the opposition and weakened his own party says it all for me.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess Iâ€™m just skim reading these days and things like â€œremoanersâ€ and losers etc keep appearing but you are prob right - it will be both sides

It is amusing at times the hypocrisy- one side complains about insults but then tries to defend the insults from their own side and vice versa

The whole thing now is a childish pantomime both on the thread and even in the HoC - as each day goes by it just gets worse.

I donâ€™t want to even think what it is going to be like when the next extension happens
		
Click to expand...

Then you come on and insult everyone


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			How exactly is BJ going to get a deal when there is no negotiations going on?

For what it's worth, I think he could get a deal that would be acceptable to the HOC - move the hard border to the Irish Sea. The DUP will hate it, but he is no longer dependent on them as even with their bought votes, he can't get a majority. But I suspect the majority of MPs would go for the above - might be a vote loser in NI, but do the mainstream parties really care about that? The nationalist parties in NI will also be happy with that arrangement as it's one step closer to a united Ireland.

If one good thing has come from sacking the 21, it's that the DUP have lost their grip on the balance of power.
		
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And how do you know there are no negotiations going on?


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## Hobbit (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I have no issue with parts of what you say and I have said that if heâ€™d be realistic about a proper time frame to try and negotiate a better deal then Iâ€™d have more faith (not all his fault for the months wasted after TM resigned), unfortunately I believe the bull in the china shop and who blinks first approach has backfired.
The fact his approach has united the opposition and weakened his own party says it all for me.
		
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You could flip that and say its a shame that the majority of Parliament hasn't got the balls for the fight for a good deal. As much as I detest Boris, I actually think he was doing it the right way, only to be stymied by Labour, who will do anything to beat the Tories, joining the LibDems, who along with the SNP have been the only 2 parties that have been honest all the way through.

The EU have played hard ball all the way through and, up to Boris fighting fire with fire, were calling all the shots.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

woody69 said:



			So speaking to people who live in the region and grew up in that area through the troubles is just exaggerated nonsense? Is it exaggerated nonsense because it doesn't align with your opinion, or because you know something many people don't?

If there is no hard border, i.e. infrastructure from cameras to buildings where trucks can be stopped for purposes of checking paperwork and cargo are you suggesting there will be no impact on the peace process? Perhaps you can you suggest a viable alternative for the checks that will be required for goods moving between the EU and the UK assuming the "undemocratic" back-stop is dropped?
		
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Are you saying if there are any kind of checks then it will insight violence.   Really !


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2019)

woody69 said:



			So speaking to people who live in the region and grew up in that area through the troubles is just exaggerated nonsense? Is it exaggerated nonsense because it doesn't align with your opinion, or because you know something many people don't?

If there is no hard border, i.e. infrastructure from cameras to buildings where trucks can be stopped for purposes of checking paperwork and cargo are you suggesting there will be no impact on the peace process? Perhaps you can you suggest a viable alternative for the checks that will be required for goods moving between the EU and the UK assuming the "undemocratic" back-stop is dropped?
		
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And even if somehow border checks and controls are completely invisible - I am not sure that hardline republicans in the north will take kindly to their 'kith and kin' south of the border suffering economic disaster and personal pain through the actions of the UK if we leave with No Deal.  I fear that they won;t need that much of an excuse...

The video I posted was by Peter Oborne - the Daily Mail's chief political commentator and a staunch advocate of Brexit - until he - too late as he says - started to understand the NI/EU border complexity and sensitivities.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 10, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			How exactly is BJ going to get a deal when there is no negotiations going on?

For what it's worth, I think he could get a deal that would be acceptable to the HOC - move the hard border to the Irish Sea. The DUP will hate it, but he is no longer dependent on them as even with their bought votes, he can't get a majority. But I suspect the majority of MPs would go for the above - might be a vote loser in NI, but do the mainstream parties really care about that? The nationalist parties in NI will also be happy with that arrangement as it's one step closer to a united Ireland.

If one good thing has come from sacking the 21, it's that the DUP have lost their grip on the balance of power.
		
Click to expand...

Moving the border to the Irish Sea would seem to be a sensible solution but the peace process is so fragile that any changes to the current situation is bound to have a negative impact somewhere


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And even if somehow border checks and controls are completely invisible - I am not sure that hardline republicans in the north will take kindly to their 'kith and kin' south of the border suffering economic disaster and personal pain* through the actions of the UK if we leave with No Deal*.  I fear that they won;t need that much of an excuse...
		
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What if we leave with No Deal due to the actions of the EU? What if the PM asks for an extension and the EU says "no, we aren't prepared to extend the deadline, you're out on 31st Oct"?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You could flip that and say its a shame that the majority of Parliament hasn't got the balls for the fight for a good deal. As much as I detest Boris, I actually think he was doing it the right way, only to be stymied by Labour, who will do anything to beat the Tories, joining the LibDems, who along with the SNP have been the only 2 parties that have been honest all the way through.

The EU have played hard ball all the way through and, up to Boris fighting fire with fire, were calling all the shots.
		
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Come on Bri, negotiations have been going on for over 2 years and Boris is going to sort it in 6 weeks? How do we know theyâ€™ve played hardball, too me theyâ€™ve simply got their act together and playing a game of who blinks first, especially not knowing how bad or good a No Deal would be.

If he doesnâ€™t get his own way do you expect him to cut and run or try and face it? Currently the last 2 PMâ€™s have legged it when it got too tough.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Moving the border to the Irish Sea would seem to be a sensible solution but the peace process is so fragile that any changes to the current situation is bound to have a negative impact somewhere 

Click to expand...

The DUP wouldnâ€™t stand for that mate.


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## Stuart_C (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Bri, negotiations have been going on for over 2 years and Boris is going to sort it in 6 weeks? How do we know theyâ€™ve played hardball, too me theyâ€™ve simply got their act together and playing a game of who blinks first, especially not knowing how bad or good a No Deal would be.

If he doesnâ€™t get his own way do you expect him to cut and run or try and face it? *Currently the last 2 PMâ€™s have legged it when it got too tough.*

Click to expand...

100% spot on. 

Millionaire ministers only care about their millionaire friends, they dont give a flying feck about Tom the local  village car mechanic  etc.


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## User62651 (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The DUP wouldnâ€™t stand for that mate.
		
Click to expand...

DUP are yesterday's news, just another minor party now, they have no power since Johnson sacked 21 of his own, changing the Commons arithmetic. They might be needed again for another coalition after next GE of course, wonder if they'll get another Â£1 billion for doing that, if required?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I can understand the beat Boris stick. He is a liar of the first water. But come on. Lets look past his behaviour and ask the question just who do we believe? Boris? No. Corbyn? No. McDonnell? Hell no with knobs on. Swinson? No. Farage? No. Blair, Major & Brown? No.

Is Boris the right person to deliver on Brexit? Yes he probably is. Is he the right person to get a deal? That's a little harder. I like the fact he's sailing close to the wind in forcing the issue but I'm not convinced he genuinely wants a deal, i.e. I don't trust him. But I see him as someone who since the initial referendum when he campaigned as a Leaver he's remained one of the true Leavers. He's hardly flip-flopped like many.

There isn't a deal out there that will be better for European trade than the UK already has, and I believe there's too many people in Parliament and outside it that won't accept that. And that brings us back to what does the rest of the world have to offer in terms of trade, and is it enough to balance the sovereignty etc that people also wanted.

Whatever, I feel bashing Boris for many things is fair but I'd also ask the question, just what do you suggest is the best way to enable Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

I actually think that it is really, really important if we are going to have any chance of near term reconciliation in this country that we leave with a Deal - and I think that Johnson just has too much invested in a 31/10 departure - and that puts the chance of any deal being reached severely at risk.

I say this as someone who has come to think that reconciliation matters more to me than whether we leave or don't leave. 

And so if a deal was agreed and there was to be another referendum; if the political context and understanding in the country had not changed from what it is now; and if Remain was on the ballot paper - I think I might actually vote for leaving with the deal agreed.

Because whereas I might well think that the _Others _are Wrong - I have to accept that there will be some Right in their thinking.  And whereas I might well think _We _are Right - I have to accept that there will be some Wrong in _Our _thinking.  And if I come to that acceptance - and an acceptance, no matter how insane I think leaving is, that many, many will not accept remaining in the EU - then I must vote to leave - but I will do much more easily on the basis of a deal having been reached.

And I don't think Johnson can get a deal.  I hope he can.  

But since he said that the UK would not negotiate until the EU drop their insistence on a backstop - and they haven't - they want an alternative and they'll discuss it and negotiate around it - I can't see what Johnson has been negotiating - he said he wasn't going to.  His officials may have been presenting ideas - but no negotiating going on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			What if we leave with No Deal due to the actions of the EU? What if the PM asks for an extension and the EU says "no, we aren't prepared to extend the deadline, you're out on 31st Oct"?
		
Click to expand...

It does not matter - the hardliners will blame the UK for leaving.


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## Old Skier (Sep 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And even if somehow border checks and controls are completely invisible - I am not sure that hardline republicans in the north will take kindly to their 'kith and kin' south of the border suffering economic disaster and personal pain through the actions of the UK if we leave with No Deal.  I fear that they won;t need that much of an excuse...

The video I posted was by Peter Oborne - the Daily Mail's chief political commentator and a staunch advocate of Brexit - until he - too late as he says - started to understand the NI/EU border complexity and sensitivities.
		
Click to expand...

Let's get this in perspective, there has been no peace in NI. Since the Good Friday agreement there has been no week where a terrorist incident hasn't occurred. To even think this is as a result of Brexit is absurd and playing into the IRA's hands. There have been soft boarder checks on both sides of the boarder by customs and police forces for years.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I actually think that it is really, really important if we are going to have any chance of near term reconciliation in this country that we leave with a Deal - and I think that Johnson just has too much invested in a 31/10 departure - and that puts the chance of any deal being reached severely at risk.

I say this as someone who has come to think that reconciliation matters more to me than whether we leave or don't leave.

And so if a deal was agreed and there was to be another referendum; if the political context and understanding in the country had not changed from what it is now; and if Remain was on the ballot paper - I think I might actually vote for leaving with the deal agreed.

Because whereas I might well think that the _Others _are Wrong - I have to accept that there will be some Right in their thinking.  And whereas I might well think _We _are Right - I have to accept that there will be some Wrong in _Our _thinking.  And if I come to that acceptance - and an acceptance, no matter how insane I think leaving is, that many, many will not accept remaining in the EU - then I must vote to leave - but I will do much more easily on the basis of a deal having been reached.

And I don't think Johnson can get a deal.  I hope he can. 

But since he said that the UK would not negotiate until the EU drop their insistence on a backstop - and they haven't - they want an alternative and they'll discuss it and negotiate around it - I can't see what Johnson has been negotiating - he said he wasn't going to.  His officials may have been presenting ideas - but no negotiating going on.
		
Click to expand...

You're very much like Brexit, aren't you; keep telling us you're leaving but somehow you're still in...


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Bri, negotiations have been going on for over 2 years and Boris is going to sort it in 6 weeks? How do we know theyâ€™ve played hardball, too me theyâ€™ve simply got their act together and playing a game of who blinks first, especially not knowing how bad or good a No Deal would be.

If he doesnâ€™t get his own way do you expect him to cut and run or try and face it? Currently the last 2 PMâ€™s have legged it when it got too tough.
		
Click to expand...

People with no interest in leaving have been fanning about for 2 years avoiding the issue, someone with an interest in Leaving might have stood a chance of doing something in 6 weeks.  Or would have done if Labour hadn't tied his hands behind his back & done his legs just to make sure.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			DUP are yesterday's news, just another minor party now, they have no power since Johnson sacked 21 of his own, changing the Commons arithmetic. They might be needed again for another coalition after next GE of course, wonder if they'll get another Â£1 billion for doing that, if required?

Click to expand...

Iâ€™m looking at it more from Loyalist Terrorists starting more trouble rather than the political angle.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It does not matter - the hardliners will blame the UK for leaving.
		
Click to expand...

I'm assuming that you are including yourself as one of the "hardliners" as in your posts everything is the fault of the UK and the EU is blameless.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Let's get this in perspective, there has been no peace in NI. Since the Good Friday agreement there has been no week where a terrorist incident hasn't occurred. To even think this is as a result of Brexit is absurd and playing into the IRA's hands. There have been soft boarder checks on both sides of the boarder by customs and police forces for years.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, but do we really want to risk escalating it to previous levels?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			People with no interest in leaving have been fanning about for 2 years avoiding the issue, someone with an interest in Leaving might have stood a chance of doing something in 6 weeks.  Or would have done if Labour hadn't tied his hands behind his back & done his legs just to make sure.
		
Click to expand...

Nope mate, not just Labour, but all the opposition and some tories. In fact didnâ€™t Labour give TM proposals that would of got her deal through?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Then you come on and insult everyone
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ Seriously ? You feel insulted by what I posted ?


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## Old Skier (Sep 10, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes, but do we really want to risk escalating it to previous levels?
		
Click to expand...

To late


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## Kellfire (Sep 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			To late
		
Click to expand...

What a ridiculous thing to say. The difference in Northern Ireland today and before the Good Friday Agreement are monumental.


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## chrisd (Sep 10, 2019)

No proof, no real reason, but I reckon Boris may just pull off an acceptable deal by the 31st


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			No proof, no real reason, but I reckon Boris may just pull off an acceptable deal by the 31st
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully mate, hopefully. ðŸ¤ž


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2019)

chrisd said:



			No proof, no real reason, but I reckon Boris may just pull off an acceptable deal by the 31st
		
Click to expand...

I hope so - if he finds a deal thatâ€™s acceptable to all then it would be an outstanding result , I suspect one will contain a few clauses that will have hard brexiters foaming and the vice versa will have the extreme Pro Remain but imo itâ€™s the people in the middle that need/want a good deal/plan


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## Kellfire (Sep 10, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I hope so - if he finds a deal thatâ€™s acceptable to all then it would be an outstanding result , I suspect one will contain a few clauses that will have hard brexiters foaming and the vice versa will have the extreme Pro Remain but imo itâ€™s the people in the middle that need/want a good deal/plan
		
Click to expand...

More naÃ¯vetÃ© on your part today, Phil - the vast number of remainers will be unhappy with ANY deal.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Then you come on and insult everyone
		
Click to expand...


When LP starts calling people Hypocrites I actually laugh out loud. (Wife gives me a look and rolls her eyes ðŸ˜)


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## Fade and Die (Sep 10, 2019)

rudebhoy said:



			How exactly is BJ going to get a deal when there is no negotiations going on?

For what it's worth, I think he could get a deal that would be acceptable to the HOC - move the hard border to the Irish Sea. The DUP will hate it, but he is no longer dependent on them as even with their bought votes, he can't get a majority. But I suspect the majority of MPs would go for the above - might be a vote loser in NI, but do the mainstream parties really care about that? The nationalist parties in NI will also be happy with that arrangement as it's one step closer to a united Ireland.

If one good thing has come from sacking the 21, it's that the DUP have lost their grip on the balance of power.
		
Click to expand...

I always though Mavis Mays plan was to throw the Irish under the bus with the border but her General Election cock up prevented it.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And even if somehow border checks and controls are completely invisible - I am not sure that hardline republicans in the north *will take kindly to their 'kith and kin' south of the border suffering economic disaster and personal pain through the actions of the UK* if we leave with No Deal.  I fear that they won;t need that much of an excuse...

The video I posted was by Peter Oborne - the Daily Mail's chief political commentator and a staunch advocate of Brexit - until he - too late as he says - started to understand the NI/EU border complexity and sensitivities.
		
Click to expand...

Is there no limit to your malice? You sound like you are salivating at the prospect of cross border troubles to prove that leaving is wrong. Thatâ€™s shameful.


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## Old Skier (Sep 10, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			What a ridiculous thing to say. The difference in Northern Ireland today and before the Good Friday Agreement are monumental.
		
Click to expand...

In terms of quality and quantity I couldn't agree more


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## Kellfire (Sep 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			In terms of quality and quantity I couldn't agree more
		
Click to expand...

What the hell are you even saying here?


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## PieMan (Sep 10, 2019)

I didn't think there would be a thread worse than the football one.......I was way wrong!!


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## User62651 (Sep 10, 2019)

PieMan said:



			I didn't think there would be a thread worse than the football one.......I was way wrong!!
		
Click to expand...

 True, it's s war of attrition on here sometimes, 5 weeks off now though. 
Mods don't intervene too much so maybe It's not that bad?
Said it before but compared to the political commentary on twitter this thread is pretty cordial. That place is savage. 

When you decide you divide.............. nothing truer.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 10, 2019)

So the talk is all about the Remainer Alliance voting down the Queenâ€™s Speech after Oct 14  & backing Keir Starmer as an interim Prime Minister to stop Brexit on Oct 31... Will Corbyn really agree to that? And will that help or hinder Boris Johnson?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 10, 2019)

This from a trade union source: â€œThe union frustration with John Mc, Emily T etc was mainly about timing. People know they will push for remain being best even against a so-called improved deal under Labour, but union leaders did not think they should be saying that out loud nowâ€


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## Mudball (Sep 10, 2019)

So apparently we are in this mess because of Rich London Remainers ... says the man whose house features a separate 'Tapestry Room', 'Reading Room' and 'Formal Living Room' spread across two floors.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/pm-aide-dominic-cummings-blames-19928675


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So the talk is all about the Remainer Alliance voting down the Queenâ€™s Speech after Oct 14  & backing Keir Starmer as an interim Prime Minister to stop Brexit on Oct 31... Will Corbyn really agree to that? And will that help or hinder Boris Johnson?
		
Click to expand...

Who is the talk from ?


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 10, 2019)

Tweet from Daniel Hannan

2016: Goldman Sachs says Brexit would be a â€œdisasterâ€which would force it to cut its UK presence.
2019: Goldman Sachs opens a billion pound new European head office in London.







Wait, Goldman Sachs, who has just employed Olly Robbins?

Hey Remainers! Joining the dots yet?


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## woody69 (Sep 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you saying if there are any kind of checks then it will insight violence.   Really !
		
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it. An extensive paper completed by UNESCO are saying it - https://senatormarkdaly.files.wordp...o-chairs-report-brexit-return-to-violence.pdf 




			There will be a return to violence in Northern Ireland in the event of the installation of infrastructure, custom checks and security on the Irish border as a result of a no deal Brexit. The only issue is the scale of the violence. This is the clear finding of the research and the analysis of the current situation in Northern Ireland by UNESCO Chairs on Children, Youth, and Community, Professor Pat Dolan and Professor Mark Brennan. They reach the same conclusion as did the Northern Ireland Peace Monitoring Report and leading social and political experts.
		
Click to expand...


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## woody69 (Sep 11, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Tweet from Daniel Hannan

2016: Goldman Sachs says Brexit would be a â€œdisasterâ€which would force it to cut its UK presence.
2019: Goldman Sachs opens a billion pound new European head office in London.







Wait, Goldman Sachs, who has just employed Olly Robbins?

Hey Remainers! Joining the dots yet?
		
Click to expand...

You think they planned and built that office in the 3 years since the referendum, or do you think that perhaps the project was already in progress before the vote and the costs already sunk into it versus the risk of whatever happens meaning they end up reducing their presence in the UK meant it was worth continuing to build? Perhaps we should wait and see what actually happens when this whole mess is sorted out as to whether companies like GS continue to invest in their UK operation. Hopefully they will.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 11, 2019)

woody69 said:



*You think they planned and built that office in the 3 years since the referendum*, or do you think that perhaps the project was already in progress before the vote and the costs already sunk into it versus the risk of whatever happens meaning they end up reducing their presence in the UK meant it was worth continuing to build? Perhaps we should wait and see what actually happens when this whole mess is sorted out as to whether companies like GS continue to invest in their UK operation. Hopefully they will.
		
Click to expand...

Of course they did. Those eastern European builders are very efficient.


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## USER1999 (Sep 11, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Of course they did. Those eastern European builders are very efficient. 

Click to expand...

Needed to get it finished before the builders all got sent home.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 11, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You think they planned and built that office in the 3 years since the referendum, or do you think that perhaps the project was already in progress before the vote and the costs already sunk into it versus the risk of whatever happens meaning they end up reducing their presence in the UK meant it was worth continuing to build? Perhaps we should wait and see what actually happens when this whole mess is sorted out as to whether companies like GS continue to invest in their UK operation. Hopefully they will.
		
Click to expand...

I think that if it was going to be that much of a disaster they would have pulled the plug. I think theyâ€™ll have taken bigger hits than that, and that if they are any sort of decent as a finance firm theyâ€™d have covered that option at the long term planning stage. 

I think itâ€™s fairly conclusive proof that certain firms and the Government were in cahoots over Project Fear, because those in charge are doing everything they can to frustrate the outcome of the vote.


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## PieMan (Sep 11, 2019)

The City of London has been one of the world's leading centres of finance, trade and commerce for a few hundred years - always will be irrespective of whether we're in the EU or not.


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## woody69 (Sep 11, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			I think that if it was going to be that much of a disaster they would have pulled the plug. I think theyâ€™ll have taken bigger hits than that, and that if they are any sort of decent as a finance firm theyâ€™d have covered that option at the long term planning stage.

I think itâ€™s fairly conclusive proof that certain firms and the Government were in cahoots over Project Fear, because those in charge are doing everything they can to frustrate the outcome of the vote.
		
Click to expand...

Well they did mitigate the risk by agreeing to have flexibility to adjust the number of floors it takes - https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-g...ffice-set-for-occupancy-in-2019-idUKKBN1661TM so I'm not sure how it is "conclusive proof" of anything. Correlation is not necessarily causation.

Did you know they have also already sold the building - https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/goldman-sachs-sells-new-london-headquarters-for-1bn-20180823


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2019)

Scottish Appeals Courts rule Johnson's prorogue illegal     yea 
Aff wii his heed Queenie


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you saying if there are any kind of checks then it will insight violence.   Really !
		
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Perhaps not.

More likely to incite violence imo!


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 11, 2019)

I always find it odd that a ruling can be approved by a number of courts but on appeal number, 3/4/5 (delete accordingly) suddenly it can be overturned and that is the one everyone takes heed of. What about the original x number of decisions that say it is okay? 

This decision was taken in a Scottish court, does it have any bearing on a UK govt decision?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2019)

One of the petitioners to the Scottish Court thinks that the Speaker could just wander into the chamber and open the HoC for today's business.  But he admitted that as we have never been here before nobody really knows what could happen next.  Is the prorogation currently null and void?  Would the PM have to go to Queenie and ask for parliament to be reconvened?  What happens between now and Tuesday when the Supreme court considers?  Goodness only knows.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2019)

UK Supreme Appeal Court next week, experts say they are unlikely to overturn Scottish judgement.(after yellowhammer mess up)
Atm Scots MP'S can legally sit at Westminster? ......could be interesting.


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Well they did mitigate the risk by agreeing to have flexibility to adjust the number of floors it takes - https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-g...ffice-set-for-occupancy-in-2019-idUKKBN1661TM so I'm not sure how it is "conclusive proof" of anything. Correlation is not necessarily causation.

Did you know they have also already sold the building - https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/goldman-sachs-sells-new-london-headquarters-for-1bn-20180823

Click to expand...

Totally agree with both points.

Though they do apparently have 'history' wrt selling 'their' buildings!

Seems to be a great Head Office though! I thought the banking org I worked for in the early 80s was 'progressive' devoting 1 of it's 12 floor head office to a gym! But that building goes many steps further! Be interesting to see how much use is made of some of the 'more progressive' aspects.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			UK Supreme Appeal Court next week, experts say they are unlikely to overturn Scottish judgement.(after yellowhammer mess up)
Atm Scots MP'S can legally sit at Westminster? ......could be interesting.
		
Click to expand...

They may be able to sit but can they do anything? Can they take bills through the House, presumably not?

Is it just a stunt or will it mean everyone cancels their conferences and comes back? If they do come back, then what?

Unchartered territory.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 11, 2019)

This ruling is that it was the PM's advice to the Queen on prorogation is unlawful. That does not (yet) change the prorogation itself. Though of course will add to pressure Supreme Court on all this is next Tuesday.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish Appeals Courts rule Johnson's prorogue illegal     yea 
Aff wii his heed Queenie
		
Click to expand...

wHAT A SURPRISE!


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## spongebob59 (Sep 11, 2019)

Expert lawyer
@davidallengreen
puts â€œchances of the action succeeding in London as zeroâ€â€¦

The activist lawyers who brought this case chose to not fight it in London because they knew they would lose under English law. They had to retreat to Scotland which has a very different interpretation of constitutional matters.


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## woody69 (Sep 11, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Expert lawyer
@davidallengreen
puts â€œchances of the action succeeding in London as zeroâ€â€¦

The activist lawyers who brought this case chose to not fight it in London because they knew they would lose under English law. They had to retreat to Scotland which has a very different interpretation of constitutional matters.
		
Click to expand...

Are you going to include everything he said on this, or just that bit?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171717055911014400


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 11, 2019)

If Parliament was to be recalled, as called for by Labour and SNP, what are they hoping to achieve? They've voted against an election twice so I'm guessing it won't be that. Some in Labour are now calling for a 2nd referendum before a General Election. With the government now not having a majority can the opposition parties take control of business and bring in a law requiring the government to hold a referendum before 31st October? And if so can the government do anything about it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			This ruling is that it was the PM's advice to the Queen on prorogation is unlawful. That does not (yet) change the prorogation itself. Though of course will add to pressure Supreme Court on all this is next Tuesday.
		
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...and the government's case in front of the Supreme Court is helped (?) by the opening three lines of it's response to the Online Petition in respect of the prorogation, which rather point to the government's reason for the prorogation. 

_Prorogation is a prerogative Act of the Crown, exercised on the advice of Ministers. We must respect the referendum result and the UK will be leaving the EU on 31 October whatever the circumstances._

_The UK will be leaving the EU on 31 October whatever the circumstances. We must respect the referendum result._

The response then goes on at length about the need for a Queen's Speech and that being the sole reason for the prorogation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Expert lawyer
@davidallengreen
puts â€œchances of the action succeeding in London as zeroâ€â€¦

The activist lawyers who brought this case chose to not fight it in London because they knew they would lose under English law. They had to retreat to Scotland which has a very different interpretation of constitutional matters.
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe English High Court and Court of Appeal on holiday in August and September?

https://www.judiciary.uk/about-the-judiciary/the-justice-system/term-dates-and-sittings/term-dates/


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 11, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Well they did mitigate the risk by agreeing to have flexibility to adjust the number of floors it takes - https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-g...ffice-set-for-occupancy-in-2019-idUKKBN1661TM so I'm not sure how it is "conclusive proof" of anything. Correlation is not necessarily causation.

Did you know they have also already sold the building - https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/goldman-sachs-sells-new-london-headquarters-for-1bn-20180823

Click to expand...

Sold it and immediately leased it back according to the article. 

Slightly different to just selling it then, as per your post, which infers they are getting out. Keep up the Project Fear. ðŸ‘


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I always find it odd that a ruling can be approved by a number of courts but on appeal number, 3/4/5 (delete accordingly) suddenly it can be overturned and that is the one everyone takes heed of. What about the original x number of decisions that say it is okay?

This decision was taken in a Scottish court, does it have any bearing on a UK govt decision?
		
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I am amazed at the cheek of those Scots wanting to break from the UK thinking they have a moral right to influence ( totally disproportionately) matters vitally important to the running of the UK.
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that we would be better off cutting Scotland loose from the the U.K. and letting them spout their views elsewhere.
Then perhaps we won't have the Press running after that woman to see what she has to say about matters which she does not want to concern her!!
ðŸ¤”


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## woody69 (Sep 11, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sold it and immediately leased it back according to the article.

Slightly different to just selling it then, as per your post, which infers they are getting out. Keep up the Project Fear. ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

If you inferred anything from my post then I apologise as that was not my intention. However, it is likely the reason it was sold and then immediately leased back was to no doubt free up cash tied up with the property, or perhaps to ensure the asset and the liability was kept off the balance sheet. You could assume that not having a building as an asset makes it easier for them to move, plus taking reduced space in the building means whatever way you look at it the workforce has been reduced.

The simple fact of the matter though is a large number of Financial Organisations (including GS) have said they are reducing their presence in London whatever the outcome of the BREXIT negotiations and have been doing exactly that - https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/banks-to-flee-london-even-if-brexit-is-cancelled-20190128


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I am amazed at the cheek of those Scots wanting to break from the UK thinking they have a moral right to influence ( totally disproportionately) matters vitally important to the running of the UK.
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that *we *would be better off* cutting Scotland loose from the the U.K*. and letting them spout their views elsewhere.
Then perhaps we won't have the Press running after that woman to see what she has to say about matters which she does not want to concern her!!
ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Except the UK cannot do that.  It's up to the Scottish electorate in accordance with a referendum held under Section 30(2) of the Scotland Act 1998.  BTW - who is the *we *- England and the English?

Westminster is the UK parliament, and so Scottish judges are entirely within their rights to rule on this UK parliament matter as it impacts the people of Scotland through their representation at Westminster.  Bit of a bummer I know.  As upsetting perhaps as upset as the many Scottish voters against independence would be were we to (somehow) cut Scotland loose.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I am amazed at the cheek of those Scots wanting to break from the UK thinking they have a moral right to influence ( totally disproportionately) matters vitally important to the running of the UK.
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that we would be better off cutting Scotland loose from the the U.K. and letting them spout their views elsewhere.
Then perhaps we won't have the Press running after that woman to see what she has to say about matters which she does not want to concern her!!
ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

How kind of you to boost the SNP vote by saying you (representing the whole of Engerland) will not support Scottish unionists.
Btw please tell me what 'bits' do not concern Ms Cherry MP.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except the UK cannot do that.  It's up to the Scottish electorate in accordance with a referendum held under Section 30(2) of the Scotland Act 1998.  BTW - who is the *we *- England and the English?

Westminster is the UK parliament, and so Scottish judges are entirely within their rights to rule on this UK parliament matter as it impacts the people of Scotland through their representation at Westminster.  Bit of a bummer I know.  As upsetting perhaps as upset as the many Scottish voters against independence would be were we to (somehow) cut Scotland loose.
		
Click to expand...

      As for your first sentence, those rights might be legal rights, but not moral ones. ( We live in a country now swilling in legal rights, and bereft of moral ones. The former has killed the latter. )
Though I didn't know the Statutes which say is a matter only for the Scottish electorate ,I did know it was dependent on the "Scottish referendum".
I was not saying what the legal position is, but I clearly indicated my wishful thinkingðŸ˜Š
BTW, if that referendum was a close victory for SNP, would they consider another one? Like hell they would. ( Do remainers pushing for a second referendum  know what the word honour means?)
As for the "we", I meant the rest of the UK. Which is about 66million minus the 4 million Scots.( conservative estimate)
Which puts into focus the right of Scottish Judges to make a ruling. The impact on 4 million, as against the impact on 66 million.

So , it will be the first minister and her cronies who upset the many (?) Scottish voters against independence, but no doubt Boris will get the blame for that too.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 11, 2019)

The case of Attlee proroguing parliament to get legislation past the Lords is being cited by the High Court as proof that even if Boris prorogued for political reasons, it wouldn't be unlawful


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## Mudball (Sep 11, 2019)

Who do the English like less?  EU or the Scots?  Which do we leave first?


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## drdel (Sep 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Who do the English like less?  EU or the Scots?  Which do we leave first?
		
Click to expand...

Shall we have a referendum ? (Best of three)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Who do the English like less?  EU or the Scots?  Which do we leave first?
		
Click to expand...

Bit tricky to define the electorate eligible to vote in a referendum for England to leave the UK?  

And as it would be England leaving the UK - an English parliament would have to be set up somewhere as Westminster would remain the UK parliament building.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			As for your first sentence, those rights might be legal rights, but not moral ones. ( We live in a country now swilling in legal rights, and bereft of moral ones. The former has killed the latter. )
Though I didn't know the Statutes which say is a matter only for the Scottish electorate ,I did know it was dependent on the "Scottish referendum".
I was not saying what the legal position is, but I clearly indicated my wishful thinkingðŸ˜Š
BTW, if that referendum was a close victory for SNP, would they consider another one? Like hell they would. ( Do remainers pushing for a second referendum  know what the word honour means?)
As for the "we", I meant the rest of the UK. Which is about 66million minus the 4 million Scots.( conservative estimate)
Which puts into focus the right of Scottish Judges to make a ruling. The impact on 4 million, as against the impact on 66 million.

So , it will be the first minister and her cronies who upset the many (?) Scottish voters against independence, but no doubt Boris will get the blame for that too.
		
Click to expand...

There can be no moral basis for rUK throwing Scotland out of the Union.

Note that your estimate of the population of Scotland was out by 35% (pop is 5.4m) - equivalent to 19.3m on the pop of England.


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## Old Skier (Sep 11, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			If Parliament was to be recalled, as called for by Labour and SNP, what are they hoping to achieve?
		
Click to expand...

Free food and drink


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## Old Skier (Sep 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There can be no moral basis for rUK throwing Scotland out of the Union.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely right, they voted to stay.  Oh hang on a minute arn't the SNP keen on setting the example that The Peoples Vote counts for nothing.


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## PieMan (Sep 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Absolutely right, they voted to stay.  Oh hang on a minute arn't the SNP keen on setting the example that The Peoples Vote counts for nothing.
		
Click to expand...

Yes they are, but to be fair not as much as the Lib Dems!! ðŸ˜‰ Not sure what Labour wants at the moment - suppose it depends on what day it is; and which one of the shadow cabinet is spouting off in the press/media!! In fact I'm not entirely sure who is actually leading Labour - Corbyn, Watson, Starmer! ðŸ¤”ðŸ˜¥


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## spongebob59 (Sep 11, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Yes they are, but to be fair not as much as the Lib Dems!! ðŸ˜‰ Not sure what Labour wants at the moment - suppose it depends on what day it is; and which one of the shadow cabinet is spouting off in the press/media!! In fact I'm not entirely sure who is actually leading Labour - Corbyn, Watson, Starmer! ðŸ¤”ðŸ˜¥
		
Click to expand...

 Neither, Momentum and the Unions.


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## ger147 (Sep 11, 2019)

So it's currently 1-1 in court cases re. prorogation and the penalty shoot out to decide the winner is next week at the Supreme Court.

Suppose it will keep all the pundits busy for the next week or so and in the meantime lets both sides quote the court case result they like to claim they've won...


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## Dando (Sep 11, 2019)

I had to laugh at the idiot mpâ€™s demanding parliament is recalled immediately.
Donâ€™t remember them wanting to cancel their summer holidays to debate brexit


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## SocketRocket (Sep 11, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The case of Attlee proroguing parliament to get legislation past the Lords is being cited by the High Court as proof that even if Boris prorogued for political reasons, it wouldn't be unlawful








Click to expand...

And Major.


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## PieMan (Sep 11, 2019)

Dando said:



			I had to laugh at the idiot mpâ€™s demanding parliament is recalled immediately.
Donâ€™t remember them wanting to cancel their summer holidays to debate brexit
		
Click to expand...

Nor the conference 'season'!!


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## Mudball (Sep 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bit tricky to define the electorate eligible to vote in a referendum for England to leave the UK? 

And as it would be England leaving the UK - *an English parliament would have to be set up somewhere *as Westminster would remain the UK parliament building. 

Click to expand...

I nominate Swindon or Sunderland ..   (also it has to be a Leave constituency as all the English apparently want to leave)


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## drdel (Sep 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I nominate Swindon or Sunderland ..   (also it has to be a Leave constituency as all the English apparently want to leave)
		
Click to expand...

Dartmoor, they can shout and we won't hear and quite often the mist will mean we won't see the silly beggars either - the accommodation is also pretty relevant!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 11, 2019)

drdel said:



			Dartmoor, they can shout and we won't hear and quite often the mist will mean we won't see the silly beggars either - the accommodation is also pretty relevant!
		
Click to expand...

Or Lundy.


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## woody69 (Sep 11, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171863968761204736


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## woody69 (Sep 11, 2019)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-response-to-humble-address-motion

Government have only released 5 pages and renamed it from "Base Scenario" to "Reasonable worst case"


----------



## Old Skier (Sep 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Or Lundy.
		
Click to expand...

Bugger off, just booked there for February


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## Old Skier (Sep 11, 2019)

Strange, little coverage of the High Court decision yet the news is full of the Scottish decision.


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## JamesR (Sep 11, 2019)

According to the news the Scottish court is an appeals court & is therefore higher up the scale than the high court. So I think the high court ruling is superceeded and the next step is the UK appeals court.

Could have misunderstood however ðŸ¤·ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 11, 2019)

woody69 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171863968761204736

Click to expand...

When was that written and is it relevant now?


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## Mudball (Sep 11, 2019)

woody69 said:



https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-response-to-humble-address-motion

Government have only released 5 pages and renamed it from "Base Scenario" to "Reasonable worst case"
		
Click to expand...

Disappointing paper.. not comprehensive.. will I get my new iPhone 11 ProMax on time..


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## woody69 (Sep 11, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			When was that written and is it relevant now?
		
Click to expand...

It was written at the start of August a few days after Boris became PM and its very relevant


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## woody69 (Sep 11, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171856106882252802


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 11, 2019)

woody69 said:



			It was written at the start of August a few days after Boris became PM and its very relevant
		
Click to expand...


No it wasnâ€™t. 


https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-operation-yellowhammer-government-emergency-plans/

We have plans in place for medicine to be express freighted which was signed off in April.
 Without looking Iâ€™d imagine similar plans are in place for food and other essentials. 
Itâ€™s just a paper outlining scenarios of which the government is preparing for/or has plans in place. 

Just another red bus for the remainers to ride on.


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## mteam (Sep 11, 2019)

I thought this was quite interesting


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## robinthehood (Sep 12, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			No it wasnâ€™t.


https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-operation-yellowhammer-government-emergency-plans/

We have plans in place for medicine to be express freighted which was signed off in April.
Without looking Iâ€™d imagine similar plans are in place for food and other essentials.
Itâ€™s just a paper outlining scenarios of which the government is preparing for/or has plans in place.

Just another red bus for the remainers to ride on.
		
Click to expand...

August is a recent revision and the link you provided still paints the same picture, just they've known longer  what the issues are but are still happy to push for no deal. 
Oof.
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚


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## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

so will there be more court action to enforce this as BJ has already said he wouldn't appoint one.

Ursula von der Leyen, the incoming president of the European Commission, has said that Boris Johnson will have to nominate a British European commissioner as part of the EU's terms for a further delay to Brexit https://t.co/SAvIGORftQ


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 12, 2019)

This Tory Government is so far right wing that even the Scotsman newspaper has deserted them now.
We now live in the UK where a PM cannot visit Scotland for fear of a citizens arrest.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

Nick Ferrari

@NickFerrariLBC
Â·
1h

Surely the solution to the migrant crisis is to hand out the #Yellowhammer papers free in Calais. NF


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			No it wasnâ€™t.


https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-operation-yellowhammer-government-emergency-plans/

We have plans in place for medicine to be express freighted which was signed off in April.
Without looking Iâ€™d imagine similar plans are in place for food and other essentials.
Itâ€™s just a paper outlining scenarios of which the government is preparing for/or has plans in place.

Just another red bus for the remainers to ride on.
		
Click to expand...

A risk management plan isn't worth the paper it is written on if all it does is identify the risks.

Heard IDS - one of the chief Brexit Excusniks - this morning telling how this was 'as was' - and that mitigations had reduced the impact of the risks identified.  But no good us trying to imagine what these might be.

Let's see how the risks are being mitigated.  How the money is being spent.  For each risk what the mitigation timescales are; what is the post-mitigation residual risk and impact.  And contingencies if mitigations fail or are not as successful as planned.  That's the real starting point for risk management.  And such as IDS tell us that that is being done and the government has it.  So let's see it.

I don't expect to see mitigations for Security risks, but no reason whatsoever for us not to see - for instance - how money is being spent in Kent and how the strategies developed will actually mitigate the Kent risks as is being claimed.

Because without public knowledge of the top level management plan for each risk in Yellowhammer and what the mitigated risk looks like, the Yellowhammer document only does what such as IDS are always complaining about - it simply adds to Project Fear.


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## Colonel Bogey (Sep 12, 2019)

Another thing struck me. If the EU was soooooooo fantastic and the UK would be sooooooo much better in than out, why are the immigrants still risking all to come here?

There is no response to this question, so don't bother. 

The UK is bigger and better than the entire morass of the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This Tory Government is so far right wing that even the Scotsman newspaper has deserted them now.
We now live in the UK where a PM cannot visit Scotland for fear of a citizens arrest.
		
Click to expand...

Really?  The Scotsman is heading to the dark side?   However only when pigs are flying over Edinburgh Castle can I imagine it ever supporting the SNiP.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

Heard on the radio the Irish courts are ruling today as well.
All we need is the French and Italians to get involved and we'll have the Brexit 6 nations !


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## woody69 (Sep 12, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Another thing struck me. If the EU was soooooooo fantastic and the UK would be sooooooo much better in than out, why are the immigrants still risking all to come here?

There is no response to this question, so don't bother.

The UK is bigger and better than the entire morass of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

There is a response. You just don't want to hear it because it doesn't suit your prejudices


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Another thing struck me. If the EU was soooooooo fantastic and the UK would be sooooooo much better in than out, why are the immigrants still risking all to come here?

There is no response to this question, so don't bother.

The UK is bigger and better than the entire morass of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

3 blatantly stupidly ignorant statements!


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 12, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Heard on the radio the Irish courts are ruling today as well.
All we need is the French and Italians to get involved and we'll have the Brexit 6 nations !
		
Click to expand...

What are they ruling on? I presume you are meaning NI courts?


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## woody69 (Sep 12, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			No it wasnâ€™t.


https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-operation-yellowhammer-government-emergency-plans/

We have plans in place for medicine to be express freighted which was signed off in April.
Without looking Iâ€™d imagine similar plans are in place for food and other essentials.
Itâ€™s just a paper outlining scenarios of which the government is preparing for/or has plans in place.

Just another red bus for the remainers to ride on.
		
Click to expand...

The paper literally has 2nd of August as the date written on it. I'm not suggesting it was all written on the 2nd of August and it is obviously a revision of the on-going research and planning the government is conducting, but it is obviously relevant as it identifies the risk scenarios of a no deal brexit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Another thing struck me. If the EU was soooooooo fantastic and the UK would be sooooooo much better in than out, why are the immigrants still risking all to come here?

There is no response to this question, so don't bother.

The UK is bigger and better than the entire morass of the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Dunno - maybe because they speak English better than any of the EU27 languages - maybe they already have relatives or know of a community from their home in the UK they'd like to join up with.  Maybe they want to sponge off the UK taxpayer.  And for that they are happy to risk their lives.  Difficult.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What are they ruling on? I presume you are meaning NI courts?
		
Click to expand...

Didn't catch that bit, nothing mentioned on the Beeb website


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			3 blatantly stupidly ignorant statements!
		
Click to expand...

Spoof account, he/she is quite funny.

Re Scottish judges ...â€¦.branded biased by Tory ministers who are so thick that they do not understand what a Appeal Court is


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This Tory Government is so far right wing that even the Scotsman newspaper has deserted them now.
We now live in the UK where a PM cannot visit Scotland for fear of a citizens arrest.
		
Click to expand...

I was reading this morning on the BBC that the SNP are now supporting Boris Johnson. Well at least on his plan to build a bridge from Scotland to NI. Apart from that I get the feeling that he isn't the most popular person with the Scots.


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Spoof account, he/she is quite funny.
...
		
Click to expand...

You'd know! Except for the 'quite funny' bit!


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## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I was reading this morning on the BBC that the SNP are now supporting Boris Johnson. Well at least on his plan to build a bridge from Scotland to NI. Apart from that I get the feeling that he isn't the most popular person with the Scots.
		
Click to expand...

how much would  put towards the cost ? Nice round figure I suspect


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## Mudball (Sep 12, 2019)

woody69 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171856106882252802

Click to expand...

Not sure why people are finding this surprising. It is normal business to take a position and maximise profit. They are likely to have a smaller position on cancelling Brexit.  So nothing to see here ..


The only newsworthy bit is that they are involved in making it happen.  Now if this was to happen in a regulated markets in the city then all of them would be hauled over coals and pay hefty fines


----------



## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172043567281442816


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## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

Government Wins Brexit Case in Northern Ireland


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 12, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Government Wins Brexit Case in Northern Ireland
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha, so does this top/cancel the Scottish case or do we wait for the best of 3 next week at the Supreme Court? When it gets down to interpretation it really does get messy.

I have a vision of MP's, bags backed, turning around and going back home after hearing this. It would be comedy if it was not serious. The lawyers wil be happy though, nice new extension or holiday home on the cards.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Government Wins Brexit Case in Northern Ireland
		
Click to expand...

Judges clearly Unionists and Leave voters


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## Beezerk (Sep 12, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Government Wins Brexit Case in Northern Ireland
		
Click to expand...

And it's buried somewhere in the news section on the BBC website, but the Scottish judge victory was headline news ðŸ¤”


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			And it's buried somewhere in the news section on the BBC website, but the Scottish judge victory was headline news ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

On front page of BBC News website at top of the section on Prorogation.  Not exactly buried.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

and on Politics page - prominent - same level of news as Scottish ruling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics


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## Beezerk (Sep 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On front page of BBC News website at top of the section on Prorogation.  Not exactly buried.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

and on Politics page - prominent - same level of news as Scottish ruling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics

Click to expand...

Yes I know, my point was any negative news against the government/Brexit seems to get headline space on the main BBC website. Look now, something about Boris lying to the Queen just below the cricket lol. It's mad.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 12, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			how much would  put towards the cost ? Nice round figure I suspect
		
Click to expand...

Probably cheaper than HS2/Crossrail/Heathrow expansion.
Be a novelty for English taxpayers to pay for a non English UK development rather than the other way around.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You'd know! Except for the 'quite funny' bit! 

Click to expand...

As an experienced Wings reader, I can spot them a mile off.


----------



## oxymoron (Sep 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Probably cheaper than HS2/Crossrail/Heathrow expansion.
Be a novelty for English taxpayers to pay for a non English UK development rather than the other way around.
		
Click to expand...


Can't you just give it a rest ? Not surprising that you take every opportunity to blather on about your perceived injustices towards Scotland, but it does get a bit heavy
and others may rise to the bait, but all you do is come across as bitter and twisted , and for all i know you may be a perfectly nice , level headed bloke  .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Yes I know, my point was any negative news against the government/Brexit seems to get headline space on the main BBC website. Look now, something about Boris lying to the Queen just below the cricket lol. It's mad.
		
Click to expand...

You think the dismissal by a NI judge of the challenge over a No Deal and it's impact on the GFA is more important than a separate judgement finding that the PM lied to the Queen?  As I read it it's not that the NI judge said that there wouldn't be an impact - just that it was obviously political and so not in scope of his considerations.  So no issue for the government, just disappointment for those raising the challenge on No Deal.

The two judgments seem to be on different matters.  One on impact of prorogation on MPs ability to hold the executive to account due to the *actions *of the government - the other on the *potential *impact of a No Deal Exit on the GFA.  Apples and Oranges.

In many ways it's very easy for Johnson to prove his innocence.  Release the communications over prorogation now requested in law.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

Don;t see any mention of cricket anywhere on the BBC News Home page


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 12, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Can't you just give it a rest ? Not surprising that you take every opportunity to blather on about your perceived injustices towards Scotland, but it does get a bit heavy
and others may rise to the bait, but all you do is come across as bitter and twisted , and for all i know you may be a perfectly nice , level headed bloke  .
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear, I had better not tell you that when the Supreme Court sit next week to judge the Scottish Law case judgment they will be judging it under Scottish Law.


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## oxymoron (Sep 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh dear, I had better not tell you that when the Supreme Court sit next week to judge the Scottish Law case judgment they will be judging it under Scottish Law.

Click to expand...

That is as may be but the bridge item was just solely a dig at the  English , and it gets a bit repetitive ,on and on and on .You would think we are all the spawn of the devil the way you harp on .


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## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

President of European Parliament this morning on current #Brexit talks with Johnson gov: â€œUnfortunately the signals we are getting arenâ€™t indicating that there is any initiative that could reopen the negotiationsâ€¦Weâ€™d like there to be initiatives to discuss but unfortunately  â€there arenâ€™t any.â€  On the backstop: â€œThere canâ€™t be an agreement without a backstop, that is the fundamental position and everything begins from that. If you donâ€™t want to talk about that, that means you donâ€™t want to talk at all, and that thereâ€™s nothing to talk about.


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As an experienced Wings reader, I can spot them a mile off.

Click to expand...

Whooosh!


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Probably cheaper than HS2/Crossrail/Heathrow expansion.
Be a novelty for English taxpayers to pay for a non English UK development rather than the other way around.
		
Click to expand...

So you have never heard of all the lovely motorways and bridges built with EU funds that English (British) taxpayers have contributed towards?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			President of European Parliament this morning on current #Brexit talks with Johnson gov: â€œUnfortunately the signals we are getting arenâ€™t indicating that there is any initiative that could reopen the negotiationsâ€¦Weâ€™d like there to be initiatives to discuss but unfortunately  â€there arenâ€™t any.â€  On the backstop: â€œThere canâ€™t be an agreement without a backstop, that is the fundamental position and everything begins from that. If you donâ€™t want to talk about that, that means you donâ€™t want to talk at all, and that thereâ€™s nothing to talk about.
		
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well he _would_ say that


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2019)

drive4show said:



			So you have never heard of all the lovely motorways and bridges built with EU funds that English (British) taxpayers have contributed towards?
		
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And I can't remember how long (if we were ever told) the 'raiding party' - involving taking cash for work done in Swindon - before heading back to Bonny 'Skirtland' lasted!


----------



## Colonel Bogey (Sep 12, 2019)

Why on earth do the Remainers want to prolong this whole ridiculous charade? The bottom line is the UK had a vote and decided to come out of the EU. No if's or but's. That's democracy. We had 2 bluddy years to sort this and couldn't (get a deal). We've extended the whole stupid thing, and STILL cannot get a deal. If we cannot get a deal that suits everyone, and we will not be able to do this, the ONLY thing left is NO DEAL. once we are out the EU will be running to us like the chickens they are. Bullies should be fought against, that's what everyone says. the EU is a bully and we should stand up to them and walk away. Food shortages? Don't make me laugh! Hey Donald mate have you got any food over there? Yes? Smashing! Send us a couple of boats loads. (These boats will be already loaded and ready to go). 

Everyone should shut up arguing about it all. It's really getting on most peoples nerves. MP's spouiting the same thing  over and over for the last 2 years. Bring the whole thing to an end and COME OUT !!!!!


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Why on earth do the Remainers want to prolong this whole ridiculous charade? The bottom line is the UK had a vote and decided to come out of the EU. No if's or but's. *That's democracy*. We had 2 bluddy years to sort this and couldn't (get a deal). We've extended the whole stupid thing, and STILL cannot get a deal. If we cannot get a deal that suits everyone, and we will not be able to do this, the ONLY thing left is NO DEAL. once we are out the EU will be running to us like the chickens they are. Bullies should be fought against, that's what everyone says. the EU is a bully and we should stand up to them and walk away. Food shortages? Don't make me laugh! Hey Donald mate have you got any food over there? Yes? Smashing! Send us a couple of boats loads. (These boats will be already loaded and ready to go).

Everyone should shut up arguing about it all. It's really getting on most peoples nerves. MP's spouiting the same thing  over and over for the last 2 years. Bring the whole thing to an end and COME OUT !!!!!
		
Click to expand...

It's absolutely because of (UK's version of)* 'Democracy' *that we are in this situation!



Colonel Bogey said:



			Everyone should shut up arguing about it all. It's really getting on most peoples nerves. MP's spouiting the same thing  over and over for the last 2 years. Bring the whole thing to an end and COME OUT !!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Seems rather like a cry for a 2nd Referendum to me!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Why on earth do the Remainers want to prolong this whole ridiculous charade? The bottom line is the UK had a vote and decided to come out of the EU. No if's or but's. That's democracy. We had 2 bluddy years to sort this and couldn't (get a deal). We've extended the whole stupid thing, and STILL cannot get a deal. If we cannot get a deal that suits everyone, and we will not be able to do this, the ONLY thing left is NO DEAL. once we are out the EU will be running to us like the chickens they are. Bullies should be fought against, that's what everyone says. the EU is a bully and we should stand up to them and walk away. Food shortages? Don't make me laugh! *Hey Donald mate have you got any food over there? Yes? Smashing! Send us a couple of boats loads. (These boats will be already loaded and ready to go).*

Everyone should shut up arguing about it all. It's really getting on most peoples nerves. MP's spouiting the same thing  over and over for the last 2 years. Bring the whole thing to an end and COME OUT !!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Yep I can see just now the person who wants to ensure everything is in the favour of the US is of course just going to send us a lot of food as good rates - good rates for who ? Us or the US 

You make everything sound so easy - Iâ€™m sure they must be kicking themselves they havenâ€™t thought of your ideas ðŸ™„


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep I can see just now the person who wants to ensure everything is in the favour of the US is of course just going to send us a lot of food as good rates - good rates for who ? Us or the US

You make everything sound so easy - Iâ€™m sure they must be kicking themselves they havenâ€™t thought of your ideas ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

...and meanwhile Trump is showing his unconditional generosity towards USA's friends and neighbours in it's handling of refugees from the Bahamas.  Yes - Florida was hit by the hurricane - just as the Bahamas was.  






And in truth I don't recall part of the Grand Plan for Brexit being a 21st Century Marshall Plan.


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## User62651 (Sep 12, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Why on earth do the Remainers want to prolong this whole ridiculous charade? The bottom line is the UK had a vote and decided to come out of the EU. No if's or but's. That's democracy. We had 2 bluddy years to sort this and couldn't (get a deal). We've extended the whole stupid thing, and STILL cannot get a deal. If we cannot get a deal that suits everyone, and we will not be able to do this, the ONLY thing left is NO DEAL. once we are out the EU will be running to us like the chickens they are. Bullies should be fought against, that's what everyone says. the EU is a bully and we should stand up to them and walk away. Food shortages? Don't make me laugh! Hey Donald mate have you got any food over there? Yes? Smashing! Send us a couple of boats loads.* (These boats will be already loaded and ready to go)*.
		
Click to expand...

There are boat loads of food sitting and rotting in the harbours of US eastern seaboard right now just waiting on Boris's call? Wow.


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## adam6177 (Sep 12, 2019)

Does anyone have thoughts/opinions on the ECB taking their interest rate FURTHER into negative territory to try and prop up the european economy?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/09/12/markets-live-latest-news-pound-euro-ftse-1002/


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## Beezerk (Sep 12, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Does anyone have thoughts/opinions on the ECB taking their interest rate FURTHER into negative territory to try and prop up the european economy?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/09/12/markets-live-latest-news-pound-euro-ftse-1002/

Click to expand...

So could a learned person explain what this means in layman's terms? Trouble at 'mill for the Eurozone or something quite normal?


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## Beezerk (Sep 12, 2019)

Ps asking for a friend ðŸ˜


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## adam6177 (Sep 12, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			So could a learned person explain what this means in layman's terms? Trouble at 'mill for the Eurozone or something quite normal?
		
Click to expand...

Essentially the eurozone is struggling (especially Germany, as is well reported) and their previous attempt at stimulating the economies hasn't worked, so they're cutting interest rates further to encourage people to spend or invest to get the economy going again.  Trouble is that by doing this the EUR vs $ has weakened even further making imports even more expensive.


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## woody69 (Sep 12, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Not sure why people are finding this surprising. It is normal business to take a position and maximise profit. They are likely to have a smaller position on cancelling Brexit.  So nothing to see here ..


The only newsworthy bit is that they are involved in making it happen.  Now if this was to happen in a regulated markets in the city then all of them would be hauled over coals and pay hefty fines
		
Click to expand...

On the night of the referendum, Nigel Farage went on TV and 'conceded', causing a huge spike in the pound -- that moment was as much a part of the Leave campaign's goal as the referendum itself. In the knowledge that statement was coming and the effect it would have, people made billions overnight. It was a well executed bit of insider trading. Illustrating the point with this picture of Nigel Farage from Leave HQ on the night of -- gleefully pointing at the plummeting pound. 







This and offshore tax evasion have always been the story of why Brexit occurred in the first place. They harnessed things that were legitimately wrong with people's lives, and created a narrative that it was all the EU's fault, in order to make (or retain) enormous wealth. Brexit is all about - offering the poor the illusion of a vote to regain 'control' and 'freedom', and for the rich to stay rich.


----------



## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

Interesting thread :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172135624163438594


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			So could a learned person explain what this means in layman's terms? Trouble at 'mill for the Eurozone or something quite normal?
		
Click to expand...

Something quite normal!

But, potentially, 'trouble at ' mill'!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

Kwasi Kwarteng yesterday - this is disgraceful hiding behind a confected _'people are saying' - a _perfect example of apophasis (he brought up a subject by denying it, or denying that it should be brought up ).  He really is beyond the pale in his sycophancy to Johnson.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49670901speaker


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## adam6177 (Sep 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Something quite normal!

But, potentially, 'trouble at ' mill'!
		
Click to expand...

exactly...its only normal if you're trying to avert a recession for a failing bloc.


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## drdel (Sep 12, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Interesting thread :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172135624163438594

Click to expand...

I think this goes back to an all N Ireland backstop that was junked at the beginning of the year.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

woody69 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171856106882252802

Click to expand...

https://order-order.com/2019/09/12/carole-issues-yet-another-correction/


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			exactly...its only normal if you're trying to avert a recession for a failing bloc.
		
Click to expand...

Twaddle!

It's a recognised Central Bank tool!

Kindly explain exactly how it, alone, averts a recession.

Given that the Pound has fallen around 20% against the Euro (and similar (?) against the dollar), surely that the UK is in an even worse state?


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## User62651 (Sep 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Kwasi Kwarteng yesterday - this is disgraceful hiding behind a confected _'people are saying'_.  He really is beyond the pale in his sycophancy to Johnson.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49670901

Click to expand...

KK gets wheeled out now for 'serious comment' like they used to do with Michael Fallon i.e. they're in a panic and want someone calm and authoritative-sounding to either deny or make sh*t up.

Gutter tabloids of the right trying to defame long serving top judges for scrupulously applying the law is bang out of order, should be no go area for papers. Shameful.


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## adam6177 (Sep 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!

It's a recognised Central Bank tool!

Kindly explain exactly how it, alone, averts a recession.

Given that the Pound has fallen around 20% against the Euro (and similar (?) against the dollar), surely that the UK is in an even worse state?
		
Click to expand...

It doesn't alone avert anything, and that's exactly the point.  They've increased the interest charge for holding euros in a bid to get people to spend and invest more.... They're then going to invest â‚¬20bn per month into the fixed income (debt) market in a hope to make money on what they do hold in cash.

I notice you keep throwing around "twaddle" when you don't believe something, well I can tell you that I work for a large investment bank in the city and I'm telling you what was said in today's meeting after the ECB announcement.

But I forget, you know more than industry professionals don't you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			KK gets wheeled out now for 'serious comment' like they used to do with Michael Fallon i.e. they're in a panic and want someone calm and authoritative-sounding to either deny or make sh*t up.

Gutter tabloids of the right trying to defame long serving top judges for scrupulously applying the law is bang out of order, should be no go area for papers. Shameful.
		
Click to expand...

And KK plays the apophasis game - stirring things by deliberately planting the seed of discontent for the thing he disavows.  He is indeed the patsy they stick up in front of the microphone these days.  

Don't know how he can live with himself some of the stuff he spouts about Brexit and the governments plans and risk management.

Hope he's pleased with himself.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 12, 2019)

woody69 said:



			On the night of the referendum, Nigel Farage went on TV and 'conceded', causing a huge spike in the pound -- that moment was as much a part of the Leave campaign's goal as the referendum itself. In the knowledge that statement was coming and the effect it would have, people made billions overnight. It was a well executed bit of insider trading. Illustrating the point with this picture of Nigel Farage from Leave HQ on the night of -- gleefully pointing at the plummeting pound.







This and offshore tax evasion have always been the story of why Brexit occurred in the first place. They harnessed things that were legitimately wrong with people's lives, and created a narrative that it was all the EU's fault, in order to make (or retain) enormous wealth. Brexit is all about - offering the poor the illusion of a vote to regain 'control' and 'freedom', and for the rich to stay rich.
		
Click to expand...

Thats right but don't forget the effect brought about when the EU integrated Semi-Lizard people into the Labour Party who started spreading rumours that Jeremy is our saviour and although his policies will destroy the ecconomy it wont really matter as other countries will make up the deficit.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It's absolutely because of (UK's version of)* 'Democracy' *that we are in this situation!



Seems rather like a cry for a 2nd Referendum to me!
		
Click to expand...

Twaddle!
The UKs version of democracy is what lays out process, we are in this situation due to people in Parliament working against the result they asked for but didn't want and bending the process to do it.


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## PieMan (Sep 12, 2019)

Foxholer - any chance you could put 'Twaddle' to bed now please and use 'Fiddlesticks' instead? Will at least be something to freshen up this thread!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€


----------



## Fade and Die (Sep 12, 2019)

woody69 said:



			On the night of the referendum, Nigel Farage went on TV and 'conceded', causing a huge spike in the pound -- that moment was as much a part of the Leave campaign's goal as the referendum itself. In the knowledge that statement was coming and the effect it would have, people made billions overnight. It was a well executed bit of insider trading. Illustrating the point with this picture of Nigel Farage from Leave HQ on the night of -- gleefully pointing at the plummeting pound.







This and offshore tax evasion have always been the story of why Brexit occurred in the first place. They harnessed things that were legitimately wrong with people's lives, and created a narrative that it was all the EU's fault, in order to make (or retain) enormous wealth. Brexit is all about - offering the poor the illusion of a vote to regain 'control' and 'freedom', and for the rich to stay rich.
		
Click to expand...


Oh my! ðŸ˜±

Maybe you (and the Pavlovian likers) would be better off here...

https://www.davidicke.com/


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## harpo_72 (Sep 12, 2019)

Should just forget it, if you cannot leave on a consensus of opinions how on earth are they going to run a government? The brutal honesty of it all is the filthy rich get richer and avoid taxes, whilst the middle classes pay more tax to support those who cannot be bothered. 
So might as well bin brexit for what it really is as a tax avoidance scheme. All those arguing for it are looking to make a rather large pot of money or avoid paying out large amounts. 
Oh well itâ€™s human nature .. greed is good... we will never evolve beyond this.


----------



## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Foxholer - any chance you could put 'Twaddle' to bed now please and use 'Fiddlesticks' instead? Will at least be something to freshen up this thread!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€
		
Click to expand...

Or poppycock

nonsense.

"he said I was talking poppycock"

synonyms:nonsense, rubbish, garbage, claptrap, balderdash, blather, blether, moonshine; More


----------



## spongebob59 (Sep 12, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172202727985876996


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			It doesn't alone avert anything...
		
Click to expand...

Thank You!

Btw. I trust the tea is decent!


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Foxholer - any chance you could put 'Twaddle' to bed now please and use 'Fiddlesticks' instead? Will at least be something to freshen up this thread!! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€
		
Click to expand...

How about 'codswallop'?

And 'trumpery' would seem suitable for some areas too!

Mind you, if there was less twaddle posted.....


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			...
The UKs version of democracy is what lays out process, *we are in this situation due to people* in Parliament working against the result they asked for but didn't want and bending the process to do it.
		
Click to expand...

I think we actually agree!


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## williamalex1 (Sep 12, 2019)

CAN WE CLOSE THIS THREAD FOR 5 WEEKS ?


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## IainP (Sep 12, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			CAN WE CLOSE THIS THREAD FOR 5 WEEKS ? 

Click to expand...

See what the courts say first ðŸ˜‰


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## PieMan (Sep 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			How about 'codswallop'?

And 'trumpery' would seem suitable for some areas too!

Mind you, if there was less twaddle posted.....
		
Click to expand...

Codswallop ðŸ‘ðŸ˜€


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## SocketRocket (Sep 12, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Codswallop ðŸ‘ðŸ˜€
		
Click to expand...

Balderdash!


----------



## Slime (Sep 13, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			CAN WE *PROROGUE* THIS THREAD FOR 5 WEEKS ? 

Click to expand...

Somehow that just feels better.


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats right but don't forget the effect brought about when the EU integrated Semi-Lizard people into the Labour Party who started spreading rumours that Jeremy is our saviour and although his policies will destroy the ecconomy it wont really matter as other countries will make up the deficit.
		
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Fade and Die said:



			Oh my! ðŸ˜±

Maybe you (and the Pavlovian likers) would be better off here...

https://www.davidicke.com/

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I'm just going to reply with


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://order-order.com/2019/09/12/carole-issues-yet-another-correction/

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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172182603698507777


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## Mudball (Sep 13, 2019)

woody69 said:



			On the night of the referendum, Nigel Farage went on TV and 'conceded', causing a huge spike in the pound -- that moment was as much a part of the Leave campaign's goal as the referendum itself. In the knowledge that statement was coming and the effect it would have, people made billions overnight. It was a well executed bit of insider trading. Illustrating the point with this picture of Nigel Farage from Leave HQ on the night of -- gleefully pointing at the plummeting pound.







This and offshore tax evasion have always been the story of why Brexit occurred in the first place. They harnessed things that were legitimately wrong with people's lives, and created a narrative that it was all the EU's fault, in order to make (or retain) enormous wealth. Brexit is all about - offering the poor the illusion of a vote to regain 'control' and 'freedom', and for the rich to stay rich.
		
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This being a rich playboy making money v the great unwashed being given the illusion is becoming apparent everyday. The conspiracy that all this to avoid the new EU 2020 directive on money laundering is getting more credible everyday. The case of an overbearing EU may be true in some aspect and surely they need reforms. But this is more a case of â€˜Barbarians at the gateâ€™ who are looking to bring down an empire for their individual pockets. 




SocketRocket said:



			Thats right but don't forget the effect brought about when the EU integrated Semi-Lizard people into the Labour Party who started spreading rumours that Jeremy is our saviour and although his policies will destroy the ecconomy it wont really matter as other countries will make up the deficit.
		
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Jeremy is just s red herring .. fence sitting and not having the courage to do a thing. Leadership is about being having a clear goal rather than just being opportunistic. Whoever makes it to number 10 will have to find a way to bring the â€˜other sideâ€™ into this.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 13, 2019)

Thats if either side can get their own parties to unite first.


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## Hobbit (Sep 13, 2019)

woody69 said:



			On the night of the referendum, Nigel Farage went on TV and 'conceded', causing a huge spike in the pound -- that moment was as much a part of the Leave campaign's goal as the referendum itself. In the knowledge that statement was coming and the effect it would have, people made billions overnight. It was a well executed bit of insider trading. Illustrating the point with this picture of Nigel Farage from Leave HQ on the night of -- gleefully pointing at the plummeting pound.







This and offshore tax evasion have always been the story of why Brexit occurred in the first place. They harnessed things that were legitimately wrong with people's lives, and created a narrative that it was all the EU's fault, in order to make (or retain) enormous wealth. Brexit is all about - offering the poor the illusion of a vote to regain 'control' and 'freedom', and for the rich to stay rich.
		
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Bearing in mind the expected result was Remain it was a bit of a risk buying Euros or dollars immediately before the result. Equally, its hardly insider trading if you know that if the result was Leave, the pound would drop.

I moved the money/purchase price of our villa here in Spain a few weeks early just in case. It saved me nearly Â£18k, but I hardly think I'm guilty of insider trading.

As for your story of why the narrative was created in support of Leave... it smacks a little of paranoia. Get yourself up to the northeast and listen to many of the ex-heavy industry workers who've seen manufacturing move to other EU countries over many years. The EU created the tax rules and subsidies that allow it. 

Tata Steel closing the blast furness on Teesside and using EU funding to set up in the Netherlands is one that immediately springs to mind. That isn't a made up story. The detail behind it is appalling.


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## woody69 (Sep 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Bearing in mind the expected result was Remain it was a bit of a risk buying Euros or dollars immediately before the result. Equally, its hardly insider trading if you know that if the result was Leave, the pound would drop.

I moved the money/purchase price of our villa here in Spain a few weeks early just in case. It saved me nearly Â£18k, but I hardly think I'm guilty of insider trading.

As for your story of why the narrative was created in support of Leave... it smacks a little of paranoia. Get yourself up to the northeast and listen to many of the ex-heavy industry workers who've seen manufacturing move to other EU countries over many years. The EU created the tax rules and subsidies that allow it.

Tata Steel closing the blast furness on Teesside and using EU funding to set up in the Netherlands is one that immediately springs to mind. That isn't a made up story. The detail behind it is appalling.
		
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You don't think the UK Government could have done more to support the UK Steel industry? It's quite a complex issue isn't it and whilst the EU rules around state aid no doubt didn't help, the UK government could have done a lot more e.g. lowering business rates.




			The closures were fairly inevitable due to the significant loses they were incurring caused by lowered steel prices due to global imports, with Russia, South Korea and particularly China cited as dumping steel. Other factors mitigating against profitability included high energy costs (including green taxes), high business rates and oversupply/low demand. In addition the UK government had voted against increased tariffs on imported Chinese steel due to its free trade policies, limiting import duties to minimal amounts (around 10%). The _Daily Telegraph_ reported that the UK Government's failure to back EU attempts to increase anti-dumping measure on imported steel had been the tipping point in Tata's decision to exit the UK steel business.
		
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## harpo_72 (Sep 13, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You don't think the UK Government could have done more to support the UK Steel industry? It's quite a complex issue isn't it and whilst the EU rules around state aid no doubt didn't help, the UK government could have done a lot more e.g. lowering business rates.
		
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Uk government was pretty dumb here, there was no need to to put tariffs on or quotas. You just put a specification in and a quality check .. failure to meet quality means no imports. Itâ€™s how I control suppliers who have a tendency to cut corners. They come in and quote cheap get the business because the purchase teams are only looking at the bottom line and never delve any deeper, and then I sort them out ðŸ¤£ with my specs and controls that are monitored by my supplier quality teams.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Uk government was pretty dumb here, there was no need to to put tariffs on or quotas. You just put a specification in and a quality check .. failure to meet quality means no imports. Itâ€™s how I control suppliers who have a tendency to cut corners. They come in and quote cheap get the business because the purchase teams are only looking at the bottom line and never delve any deeper, and then I sort them out ðŸ¤£ with my specs and controls that are monitored by my supplier quality teams.
		
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If only all companies worked that way. Sadly the accountants tend to win, along with buyers getting a cut of savings, and when QC reject product, customers complain etc production get blamed.


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## Hobbit (Sep 13, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You don't think the UK Government could have done more to support the UK Steel industry? It's quite a complex issue isn't it and whilst the EU rules around state aid no doubt didn't help, the UK government could have done a lot more e.g. lowering business rates.

The closures were fairly inevitable due to the significant loses they were incurring caused by lowered steel prices due to global imports, with Russia, South Korea and particularly China cited as dumping steel. Other factors mitigating against profitability included high energy costs (including green taxes), high business rates and oversupply/low demand. In addition the UK government had voted against increased tariffs on imported Chinese steel due to its free trade policies, limiting import duties to minimal amounts (around 10%). The _Daily Telegraph_ reported that the UK Government's failure to back EU attempts to increase anti-dumping measure on imported steel had been the tipping point in Tata's decision to exit the UK steel business.
		
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Re your second paragraph, the lower steel prices equally applied in the Netherlands. And the EU Green Taxes also applied in the Netherlands. As for the UK not backing EU tariffs and quotas on China dumping steel, the UK can't block an EU wide tariffs and quotas.

Could the UK govt have done more? Without a doubt, but the climate for Tata to move was already there, and the decision to move was made long before China started dumping. The story is complex, including over Â£600m paid to Tata in carbon credits for mothballing the plant whilst the new one in the Netherlands was being built. The whole story in long and complex but the fact remains the EU have a criteria for attracting business into the EU, and one of those criteria is that it doesn't mean losing jobs elsewhere in the EU. If you look on the EU's own site it shows the investigation that took place re the funding and the move, and its a whitewash. Similarly the EU carried out one for the JLR move to the Czech Republic... another breaking of the EU's own rules and another whitewash.

Taking it back to your original point, I have every sympathy for the workers that lost their jobs whilst the EU flouted its own rules in funding and subsidies. Those weren't the scare stories you spoke of but are real hard, fact based stories. Many people in the NEast, where heavy industry has been decimated know that their job was shipped to the mainland EU with the help of the EU. They were never going to vote Remain.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 13, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If only all companies worked that way. Sadly the accountants tend to win, along with buyers getting a cut of savings, and when QC reject product, customers complain etc production get blamed.
		
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It took a bit of work, the problem lies in purchasing departments acting outside of their skill set and making specialist decisions. I found they wanted me to stand behind their decision and fix the issues when they arose. When I refused to and asked them to take responsibility it got very interesting and it also got interesting when I rejected suppliers who were causing me quality issues, thankfully I had secondary suppliers more than willing to take up the extra volume. It left the purchase teams having to explain to the rejected supplier why they were not getting the volume they had been promised. A couple of those discussions usually helps align the purchase teams.
However all of this can be mitigated at the development stage and going into full volume production. Every supplier wants to be done and dusted (likewise the development teams) so we use the promise of full production sign off to get their quality commitment.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 13, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			It took a bit of work, the problem lies in purchasing departments acting outside of their skill set and making specialist decisions. I found they wanted me to stand behind their decision and fix the issues when they arose. When I refused to and asked them to take responsibility it got very interesting and it also got interesting when I rejected suppliers who were causing me quality issues, thankfully I had secondary suppliers more than willing to take up the extra volume. It left the purchase teams having to explain to the rejected supplier why they were not getting the volume they had been promised. A couple of those discussions usually helps align the purchase teams.
However all of this can be mitigated at the development stage and going into full volume production. Every supplier wants to be done and dusted (likewise the development teams) so we use the promise of full production sign off to get their quality commitment.
		
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Purchasing depts now mainly look to make cost savings, it is what is asked of them. You need a half decent MD or similar to ensure that quality comes first, price second. Sadly I see it too many time the other way around now. Well done in winning your fight

We lost some business last year with a major German company with a factory in Portugal. The buyers got to keep 10% of any savings they could make. The factory is in a poor part of Portugal, this bonus could be huge to them. They didn't give a stuff about quality and sadly the production team were not strong enough to stop them. Our distributor out there spoke to one of the engineers on the production line and asked how the new products were faring. They told him they were poor, caused problems but they were told just to get on with it and manage the situation


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## drdel (Sep 13, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Purchasing depts now mainly look to make cost savings, it is what is asked of them. You need a half decent MD or similar to ensure that quality comes first, price second. Sadly I see it too many time the other way around now. Well done in winning your fight

We lost some business last year with a major German company with a factory in Portugal. The buyers got to keep 10% of any savings they could make. The factory is in a poor part of Portugal, this bonus could be huge to them. They didn't give a stuff about quality and sadly the production team were not strong enough to stop them. Our distributor out there spoke to one of the engineers on the production line and asked how the new products were faring. They told him they were poor, caused problems but they were told just to get on with it and manage the situation 

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Very much the case with Tenders, especially in the public sector. The irony is that a more expert and qualified team identifies stuff the clowns don't, often means more cost so the better supplier's higher bid loses - not always but often. Just adds cost in the long run.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2019)

The government are telling us that the risks identified in the Operation Yellowhammer risk analysis have, to one degree or another, been mitigated or mitigation and contingency plans are in place.  Have they been published - if not why wouldn't they want to tell us. 

Because as it stands the Operation Yellowhammer document can simply be dismissed as Project Fear (even although the government has produced it) - and those of us who can be bothered reading it could feel a little bit freaked out by what it says.

BTW - discovered this morning that Yellowhammer is an anagram of _Orwell Mayhem _  Well who knew...


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The government are telling us that the risks identified in the Operation Yellowhammer risk analysis have, to one degree or another, been mitigated or mitigation and contingency plans are in place.  *Have they been published - if not why wouldn't they want to tell us.*

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I believe that the government announced that they would be producing an updated version of the document fairly shortly. Not sure when it was mentioned but possibly during the debate in the HoCs. Definitely remember seeing something about it on the BBC News website possibly with a comment from Gove about it.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The government are telling us that the risks identified in the Operation Yellowhammer risk analysis have, to one degree or another, been mitigated or mitigation and contingency plans are in place.  Have they been published - if not why wouldn't they want to tell us.

Because as it stands the Operation Yellowhammer document can simply be dismissed as Project Fear (even although the government has produced it) - and those of us who can be bothered reading it could feel a little bit freaked out by what it says.

BTW - discovered this morning that Yellowhammer is an anagram of _Orwell Mayhem _  Well who knew...
		
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Isnâ€™t that the new name for the Labour Party they are announcing at conference.
But would fit any other party as well.


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## Leftie (Sep 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			Very much the case with Tenders, especially in the public sector. The irony is that a more expert and qualified team identifies stuff the clowns don't, often means more cost so the better supplier's higher bid loses - not always but often. Just adds cost in the long run.
		
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Spot on.  Roughly 90% of what I did was a waste of time from that perspective.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I believe that the government announced that they would be producing an updated version of the document fairly shortly. Not sure when it was mentioned but possibly during the debate in the HoCs. Definitely remember seeing something about it on the BBC News website possibly with a comment from Gove about it.
		
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I heard Nigel Evans (I think it was) tell that the Yellowhammer risk analysis was a *live *analysis - though strikes me that he was muddling up the risk analysis with the risk mitigation plan that we have not seen.  Though the risk analysis will change as new risks are added and other are closed - the risk mitigation plan will be most active and it is that which tells us the mitigated state of every risk.

For any project, Senior Management and the Client aren't that interested in getting updates of the risks per se - what they want to see is the current mitigated status of every risk - and *they will expect to see it whenever they ask for it. * The UK Public and business is in effect the 'Client' for Brexit risk management - and we should see the key risks that will affect us and what is being done about them - with associated timescales and predicted residual risk plus contingency.

There are risks that may only be appropriate for 'Senior Management' and that we would not expose to the customer - but where there are major or key risks that we do not expose to the customer because it is awkward or difficult for us - then we have to expect a severe kicking and/or penalties from the client if a risk we have not told them about or were not truthful about in our mitigation planning - transpires.

It is *never *a good idea to hide, or be less than truthful about, major customer impact risks.

So the government should be open about their current risk management plan for all risks identified in the Yellowhammer analysis - excepting Security risks, these being the ones the 'customer' does not need to know about.

In that way concerns the public have *now *over the risks will be mitigated


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For any project, Senior Management and the Client aren't that interested in getting updates of the risks per se - what they want to see is the current mitigated status of every risk - and *they will expect to see it whenever they ask for it. * The UK Public and business is in effect the 'Client' for Brexit risk management - and we should see the key risks that will affect us and what is being done about them - with associated timescales and predicted residual risk plus contingency.
		
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Re: The bit in bold. Any reasonable person would accept the response "We're currently updating it based on the most recent information we have and will release it to you as soon as it has been updated in the next few days". What's the point in releasing a document that is still being worked on and that will be out of date as soon as it is released?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Re: The bit in bold. Any reasonable person would accept the response "We're currently updating it based on the most recent information we have and will release it to you as soon as it has been updated in the next few days". *What's the point in releasing a document that is still being worked on and that will be out of date as soon as it is released*?
		
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Because the risk management plan is a *live* document - it will not be getting updated periodically.  Plus what we have seen is now over a month old and we have not seen *any *risk management plan.  And there will be one that it shows the mitigations that the government is telling us have been put in place or are planned for every risk in Yellowhammer.

No matter the point you release a mitigation plan it is out of date - but I still have to provide my management the current plan whenever they ask for it.  I may ask for a couple of hours to refresh it if I know important things have changed - but if they want it now they get it. 

The current Brexit RMP will not be very much out of date - if at all.  The government's Brexit Delivery team meet daily I believe - Gove will want to see an updated RMP at that meeting.


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## Foxholer (Sep 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I heard Nigel Evans (I think it was) tell that the Yellowhammer risk analysis was a *live *analysis - though strikes me that he was muddling up the risk analysis with the risk mitigation plan that we have not seen.  Though the risk analysis will change as new risks are added and other are closed - the risk mitigation plan will be most active and it is that which tells us the mitigated state of every risk.

For any project, Senior Management and the Client aren't that interested in getting updates of the risks per se - what they want to see is the current mitigated status of every risk - and *they will expect to see it whenever they ask for it. * The UK Public and business is in effect the 'Client' for Brexit risk management - and we should see the key risks that will affect us and what is being done about them - with associated timescales and predicted residual risk plus contingency.

There are risks that may only be appropriate for 'Senior Management' and that we would not expose to the customer - but where there are major or key risks that we do not expose to the customer because it is awkward or difficult for us - then we have to expect a severe kicking and/or penalties from the client if a risk we have not told them about or were not truthful about in our mitigation planning - transpires.

It is *never *a good idea to hide, or be less than truthful about, major customer impact risks.

So the government should be open about their current risk management plan for all risks identified in the Yellowhammer analysis - excepting Security risks, these being the ones the 'customer' does not need to know about.

In that way concerns the public have *now *over the risks will be mitigated 

Click to expand...

While the above approach generally works in a B2B 'prroject', I have never seen it applied to major government-general public relationship ones - especially in UK, with its high level of critical press 'review'!

In fact, I disagree that 'the public' is actually 'the client' wrt most of the yellowhammer relationships. To me, they/we are more equivalent to a company's shareholders. It's more likely that a 'trade body' would be the appropriate 'client'.


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## drdel (Sep 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because the risk management plan is a *live* document - it will not be getting updated periodically.  Plus what we have seen is now over a month old and we have not seen *any *risk management plan.  And there will be one that it shows the mitigations that the government is telling us have been put in place or are planned for every risk in Yellowhammer.

No matter the point you release a mitigation plan it is out of date - but I still have to provide my management the current plan whenever they ask for it.  I may ask for a couple of hours to refresh it if I know important things have changed - but if they want it now they get it.

The current Brexit RMP will not be very much out of date - if at all.  The government's Brexit Delivery team meet daily I believe - Gove will want to see an updated RMP at that meeting.
		
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A Government can't just keep releasing stuff that is work-in-progress because how do you assess the point of release it would also lead to continuous tangents?

Not only that but much of the contents in the mitigation actions could be sensitive commercially.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2019)

drdel said:



			A Government can't just keep releasing stuff that is work-in-progress because how do you assess the point of release it would also lead to continuous tangents?

Not only that but much of the contents in the mitigation actions could be sensitive commercially.
		
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I get that some mitigations might be commercially sensitive - but how are we to know what is actually being done and what has been done. 

Yes - I've heard and seen feedback from some councils saying what they are doing - and that's great at a local level - but for some of the real major risks to the country does the public not have a right to know?  

My suspicions go all the way back to just prior to triggering of Article 50 - and then afterwards.  

At the time I was hoping for some indication from the government of their top level timeline for the negotiations from then until 29th March - not any detail of the negotiating strategy - just what the government was aiming to achieve big step-by-big step over the 2yrs after triggering.  We got nothing.  

We were told that of course the government had a plan,  and on here I was told repeatedly to not be so naive asking for such a thing - of course the government would have one - but much too sensitive to release any indications whatsoever of the timelines or the plan.  And my concerns were dismissed, by requests were waved away as being naive - what did I know of negotiating...

And no plan was forthcoming - Davis and May never really had a plan.  Yes we got objectives out of May's Lancaster House speech.  But these were objectives for the negotiations - not a base timeline for achieving them through the negotiations.

I have zero trust in this government - and in Johnson I have a great deal of mistrust.  They should be doing what they can to ease the worries that many have - and take on board and correct criticisms of Yellowhammer as Project Fear document and irrelevant as a mitigation plan.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While the above approach generally works in a B2B 'prroject', I have never seen it applied to major government-general public relationship ones - especially in UK, with its high level of critical press 'review'!

In fact, I disagree that 'the public' is actually 'the client' wrt most of the yellowhammer relationships. To me, they/we are more equivalent to a company's shareholders. It's more likely that a 'trade body' would be the appropriate 'client'.
		
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OK - well they need to know.


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## PieMan (Sep 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I get that some mitigations might be commercially sensitive - but how are we to know what is actually being done and what has been done.

Yes - I've heard and seen feedback from some councils saying what they are doing - and that's great at a local level - but for some of the real major risks to the country does the public not have a right to know? 

My suspicions go all the way back to just prior to triggering of Article 50 - and then afterwards. 

At the time I was hoping for some indication from the government of their top level timeline for the negotiations from then until 29th March - not any detail of the negotiating strategy - just what the government was aiming to achieve big step-by-big step over the 2yrs after triggering.  We got nothing. 

We were told that of course the government had a plan,  and on here I was told repeatedly to not be so naive asking for such a thing - of course the government would have one - but much too sensitive to release any indications whatsoever of the timelines or the plan.  And my concerns were dismissed, by requests were waved away as being naive - what did I know of negotiating...

And no plan was forthcoming - Davis and May never really had a plan.  Yes we got objectives out of May's Lancaster House speech.  But these were objectives for the negotiations - not a base timeline for achieving them through the negotiations.

I have zero trust in this government - and in Johnson I have a great deal of mistrust.  They should be doing what they can to ease the worries that many have - and take on board and correct criticisms of Yellowhammer as Project Fear document and irrelevant as a mitigation plan.
		
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I don't know how many times this has been covered!

Same old ðŸ’©ðŸ’©ðŸ’©ðŸ’©ðŸ’©

ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 13, 2019)

PieMan said:



			I don't know how many times this has been covered!

Same old ðŸ’©ðŸ’©ðŸ’©ðŸ’©ðŸ’©

ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´ðŸ˜´
		
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No itâ€™s not, thereâ€™s no mention of unicorns.


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## PieMan (Sep 13, 2019)

Mods - close this thread down. It's full of ridiculous posts (mine included) and people getting all worked up and emotional.

As someone working on Brexit issues - both 'Deal' and 'No Deal' there's an awful lot I know but unfortunately cannot share.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Mods - close this thread down. It's full of ridiculous posts (mine included) and people getting all worked up and emotional.

As someone working on Brexit issues - both 'Deal' and 'No Deal' there's an awful lot I know but unfortunately cannot share.
		
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Which is good to know - but the public doesn't and we are expected to just believe...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Mods - close this thread down. It's full of ridiculous posts (mine included) and people getting all worked up and emotional.

As someone working on Brexit issues - both 'Deal' and 'No Deal' there's an awful lot I know but unfortunately cannot share.
		
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You know about the unicorns? ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Sep 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because the risk management plan is a *live* document - it will not be getting updated periodically.  Plus what we have seen is now over a month old and we have not seen *any *risk management plan.  And there will be one that it shows the mitigations that the government is telling us have been put in place or are planned for every risk in Yellowhammer.

No matter the point you release a mitigation plan it is out of date - but I still have to provide my management the current plan whenever they ask for it.  I may ask for a couple of hours to refresh it if I know important things have changed - but if they want it now they get it.

The current Brexit RMP will not be very much out of date - if at all.  The government's Brexit Delivery team meet daily I believe - Gove will want to see an updated RMP at that meeting.
		
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Wouldn't part of your PM documentation be a Gantt diagram showing your mgt where you are up to with each phase and sub-phase within each task area? I wonder how each Civil Service dept tracks and reports their particular areas?

I'd be very surprised if the respective depts don't have tracking docs. How else would they themselves know where they are up at any given time and where they are against specific dates in the Gantt diagram?


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## PieMan (Sep 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is good to know - but the public doesn't and we are expected to just believe...
		
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Everything the public needs to know is on GOV.UK and the technical notices that have been published.

And by the way, my Government Department is way ahead of my EU counterparts in the advice being published, especially in the event of a 'No Deal'.


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## PieMan (Sep 13, 2019)

drive4show said:



			You know about the unicorns? ðŸ˜‰
		
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Imports or exports; fresh, chilled or frozen?


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## IanM (Sep 13, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Everything the public needs to know is on GOV.UK and the technical notices that have been published.

And by the way, my Government Department is way ahead of my EU counterparts in the advice being published, especially in the event of a 'No Deal'.
		
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Ah, but the EU are not impacted in anyway by any changes and our bit of the sky will fall in!


(The cynic in me thinks the EU know we are staying in and haven't bothered.  Whereas the UK Govt have to pretend something is happening)


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 13, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Imports or exports; fresh, chilled or frozen?
		
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The ones they sell in Lidl. Oh hang on, that's a German company, maybe we won't be able to get them anymore 

Bluddy Brexiteers!


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## PieMan (Sep 13, 2019)

IanM said:



			Ah, but the EU are not impacted in anyway by any changes and our bit of the sky will fall in!


(The cynic in me thinks the EU know we are staying in and haven't bothered.  Whereas the UK Govt have to pretend something is happening)
		
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As you know Ian, I cannot possibly comment further! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€


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## Hobbit (Sep 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As I said in my post

Predictions were made by both sides which will no doubt be seen to be untrue

I do believe only one campaign was found to have broken some rules ? I have no idea what has been thrown back into anyoneâ€™s face - tried to look at the thread but it seems to have turned into tit for tat insults and point scoring
		
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Sorry for pinching an old post Phil but just wanted to post up an update on Leave spending. The top guy for the Leave.EU campaign was cleared in 3 different investigations by the electoral commission of overspending and financial irregularities. The Police has now also dropped the investigation into spending irregularities. 

I wonder if that will get the same high profile headlines that they did at the start of the investigations?


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is good to know - but the public doesn't and we are expected to just *believe*...
		
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Funny what some people choose to believe in or choose not to believe in, isn't it.


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## Hobbit (Sep 13, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Funny what some people believe in or don't believe in, isn't it.
		
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Are you telling me there aren't any unicorns?


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## Captainron (Sep 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Are you telling me there aren't any unicorns?
		
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There are more unicorns than deals....


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## IainP (Sep 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Are you telling me there aren't any unicorns?
		
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They're in Iceland 




the shop


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## Hobbit (Sep 13, 2019)

IainP said:



			They're in Iceland




the shop
		
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Do they do BOGOF's


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## drdel (Sep 13, 2019)

IainP said:



			They're in Iceland




the shop
		
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And in Thailand they're alongside the Pork Pies


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## IanM (Sep 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry for pinching an old post Phil but just wanted to post up an update on Leave spending. The top guy for the Leave.EU campaign was cleared in 3 different investigations by the electoral commission of overspending and financial irregularities. The Police has now also dropped the investigation into spending irregularities.

I wonder if that will get the same high profile headlines that they did at the start of the investigations?
		
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What do you think?

Equally, why do you think that various forms spending by UK Government, EU and various iffy overseas agitators in favour of keeping us in are outside the scope of both the spending and the investigations?


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## drdel (Sep 13, 2019)

IanM said:



			What do you think?

Equally, why do you think that various forms spending by UK Government, EU and various iffy overseas agitators in favour of keeping us in are outside the scope of both the spending and the investigations?
		
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In all honesty those who control the real international wealth don't much care for the minnows playing politics - been like it for many many years


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## Jimaroid (Sep 13, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Mods - close this thread down. It's full of ridiculous posts (mine included) and people getting all worked up and emotional.
		
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I've read this thread from afar over the months and years it's been going (plus the old one) and have intentionally restrained myself from commenting on the topic, until now, as this is the first sensible thing anyone has posted in it.


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## drdel (Sep 13, 2019)

C'mon, lighten up why close it? there's no need to take these things too seriously. OK so one or two people will get wound and emotive that's online Forums. The repetition is also annoying but so what. Its a live debate, everywhere in the public domain; treat it for what it is - a few gits with some time to waste on amusing ourselves. Once in a while there's some good points.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 13, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Everything the public needs to know is on GOV.UK and the technical notices that have been published.

And by the way, my Government Department is way ahead of my EU counterparts in the advice being published, especially in the event of a 'No Deal'.
		
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Donâ€™t tell people that, theyâ€™re only interested in Yellowhammer. That is the brexit bible.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Everything the public needs to know is on GOV.UK and the technical notices that have been published.

And by the way, my Government Department is way ahead of my EU counterparts in the advice being published, especially in the event of a 'No Deal'.
		
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Since you posted this I have tried to do some research reference medication.

It is quite comprehensive about what importers, companies etc should be doing in advance to prepare for a No Deal Brexit.

My question is though, not aimed at you, but asking for any feedback, how does that help me (the man in the street) if there are possible shortages of some medicines as mentioned in yellowhammer, how does it help the patient needing the medication, I canâ€™t stockpile medication as doctors wonâ€™t authorise extra prescriptions for people to take their own precautions.
This is just one of the areas a No Deal Brexit concerns me and before anyone tries to claim I might be over reacting, I might be, but while Iâ€™m responsible for one terminally ill person and 2 others who are disabled, I can assure you the worries are real.


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## PieMan (Sep 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Since you posted this I have tried to do some research reference medication.

It is quite comprehensive about what importers, companies etc should be doing in advance to prepare for a No Deal Brexit.

My question is though, not aimed at you, but asking for any feedback, how does that help me (the man in the street) if there are possible shortages of some medicines as mentioned in yellowhammer, how does it help the patient needing the medication, I canâ€™t stockpile medication as doctors wonâ€™t authorise extra prescriptions for people to take their own precautions.
This is just one of the areas a No Deal Brexit concerns me and before anyone tries to claim I might be over reacting, I might be, but while Iâ€™m responsible for one terminally ill person and 2 others who are disabled, I can assure you the worries are real.
		
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I understand where you're coming from - my wife relies on breast cancer medication.

She has been in to see her GP and - most importantly - her pharmacist. Both have reassured her that supplies of the drug are plentiful, and have been reassured by their suppliers over Brexit.

For those worrying over Yellowhammer - and I totally appreciate the concerns - these are worst case scenarios.

I haven't really looked in detail at it but from what I saw there were an awful lot of 'could' in it.

But as a public servant what really grates me are those members of the public who think 'we' (it is us remember who do the donkey work, not the Government) are not doing anything to mitigate those scenarios. I would say a large % of the civil service were remain voters (and still are!) but we are working our arses off to deliver Brexit, whether that's no deal or with a deal.


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## drdel (Sep 13, 2019)

PieMan said:



			I understand where you're coming from - my wife relies on breast cancer medication.

She has been in to see her GP and - most importantly - her pharmacist. Both have reassured her that supplies of the drug are plentiful, and have been reassured by their suppliers over Brexit.

For those worrying over Yellowhammer - and I totally appreciate the concerns - these are worst case scenarios.

I haven't really looked in detail at it but from what I saw there were an awful lot of 'could' in it.

But as a public servant what really grates me are those members of the public who think 'we' (it is us remember who do the donkey work, not the Government) are not doing anything to mitigate those scenarios. I would say a large % of the civil service were remain voters (and still are!) but we are working our arses off to deliver Brexit, whether that's no deal or with a deal.
		
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Civil Servants are always the butt of jokes etc but the ones I've come across in Westminster are as professional as anyone else I've worked  with.  Ignore the ignorant.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2019)

PieMan said:



			I understand where you're coming from - my wife relies on breast cancer medication.

She has been in to see her GP and - most importantly - her pharmacist. Both have reassured her that supplies of the drug are plentiful, and have been reassured by their suppliers over Brexit.

For those worrying over Yellowhammer - and I totally appreciate the concerns - these are worst case scenarios.

I haven't really looked in detail at it but from what I saw there were an awful lot of 'could' in it.

But as a public servant what really grates me are those members of the public who think 'we' (it is us remember who do the donkey work, not the Government) are not doing anything to mitigate those scenarios. I would say a large % of the civil service were remain voters (and still are!) but we are working our arses off to deliver Brexit, whether that's no deal or with a deal.
		
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Thanks for that, much appreciated, itâ€™s funny the messages you get from pharmacists etc, weâ€™ve been told by our pharmacist they received emails to say there could be shortages but not of any specific drugs, which is pretty meaningless in itself.

Fully appreciate the work the civil servants do or as we squaddies called you f@&) civvies.
Thanks again.


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## IanM (Sep 13, 2019)

Meanwhile.... look at the world pharmaceutical industry outside the EU. 

Anyone would think there wasn't one.


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## Old Skier (Sep 13, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Fully appreciate the work the civil servants do or as we squaddies called you f@&) civvies.
Thanks again.
		
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Don't weaken, they will think they are useful.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2019)

IanM said:



			Meanwhile.... look at the world pharmaceutical industry outside the EU.

Anyone would think there wasn't one.
		
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Makes no sense what so ever.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 13, 2019)

When I consider the concerns over shortages of medicines etc after a no deal Brexit I cannot understand how suggested shortages will happen.  Lets just consider medication, a lot of medication is made in the UK so does this mean countries in the EU would have shortages if they can't get out the UK, the EU don't appear to be panicking about it.  Medicine coming into the UK  passes from the EU and into the UK, be that by ship or aircraft, to create shortages the UK border would have to hold up the supply at our ports.  Is this likely to happen and if so how and why?

I am genuinely interested in the answer to this and would apreciate sensible replies please.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			When I consider the concerns over shortages of medicines etc after a no deal Brexit I cannot understand how suggested shortages will happen.  Lets just consider medication, a lot of medication is made in the UK so does this mean countries in the EU would have shortages if they can't get out the UK, the EU don't appear to be panicking about it.  Medicine coming into the UK  passes from the EU and into the UK, be that by ship or aircraft, to create shortages the UK border would have to hold up the supply at our ports.  Is this likely to happen and if so how and why?

I am genuinely interested in the answer to this and would apreciate sensible replies please.
		
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Hereâ€™s one link, link also mentions not all shortages are linked to Brexit, but how the whole process is fragile.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....d-than-you-think_uk_5d760f0ce4b0fde50c29821f/


Another one and this mentions the risk to the EU.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1V20FQ


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## robinthehood (Sep 13, 2019)

Appallingly
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49690618


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2019)

PieMan said:



			I understand where you're coming from - my wife relies on breast cancer medication.

She has been in to see her GP and - most importantly - her pharmacist. Both have reassured her that supplies of the drug are plentiful, and have been reassured by their suppliers over Brexit.

For those worrying over Yellowhammer - and I totally appreciate the concerns - these are worst case scenarios.

I haven't really looked in detail at it but from what I saw there were an awful lot of 'could' in it.

But as a public servant what really grates me are those members of the public who think 'we' (it is us remember who do the donkey work, not the Government) are not doing anything to mitigate those scenarios. I would say a large % of the civil service were remain voters (and still are!) but we are working our arses off to deliver Brexit, whether that's no deal or with a deal.
		
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Please correct me if I am wrong, Nicola Sturgeon said that the government document shown to her said base level scenario, not worst case.
There seems to be confusion about the first leaked document and the one issued by the government.

My Welsh cousin is already experiencing shortages of his life preserving cancer drug and both his doctor and pharmacist warn him it will be difficult to get after Brexit.
 Whether that is to do with Brexit or not I do not know.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please correct me if I am wrong, Nicola Sturgeon said that the government document shown to her said base level scenario not worst case.
There seems to be confusion about the first leaked document and the one issued by the government,
		
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I've no idea what Nicola Sturgeon said or saw but is it possible that "base level" was being used as another term for worst case in that the base is the lowest? In my field (geology) the base level is the lowest level that land can be eroded to by a stream or river so in that example it is the "worst case" scenario.


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## PieMan (Sep 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please correct me if I am wrong, Nicola Sturgeon said that the government document shown to her said base level scenario, not worst case.
There seems to be confusion about the first leaked document and the one issued by the government.

My Welsh cousin is already experiencing shortages of his life preserving cancer drug and both his doctor and pharmacist warn him it will be difficult to get after Brexit.
Whether that is to do with Brexit or not I do not know.
		
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Personally at the moment anything a politician comes out with is spinning for their own personal gain IMO. I've certainly been working on mitigating worst case scenario.

Re. your Welsh cousin and his drug shortage that's sad to hear, but we're still an EU member state so any drug shortages are not because of Brexit. Obviously I have no idea what goes on in Wales but I'm assuming from your post that it's NHS? Health and health services are devolved issues in Wales so surely that's responsibility of the Welsh Government to ensure there are adequate supplies?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Personally at the moment anything a politician comes out with is spinning for their own personal gain IMO. I've certainly been working on mitigating worst case scenario.

Re. your Welsh cousin and his drug shortage that's sad to hear, but we're still an EU member state so any drug shortages are not because of Brexit. Obviously I have no idea what goes on in Wales but I'm assuming from your post that it's NHS? Health and health services are devolved issues in Wales so surely that's responsibility of the Welsh Government to ensure there are adequate supplies?
		
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So Yellowhammer is base level then, not worst case.


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## Foxholer (Sep 14, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Everything the public needs to know is on GOV.UK and the technical notices that have been published.
...
		
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That's good to know. However, I do wonder how 'the public needs to know' was/is determined. Obviously Yellowhammer file was considered something that the public *didn't* need to know, but has created quite an uproar, at least in the media, when it was leaked.


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## Dellboy (Sep 14, 2019)

My sister in-law is already having problems with shortages of cancer drugs, but thatâ€™s more down to the very poorly ran NHS service in Scotland than Brexit. 

She is planning to move down here in the South West next year, so she can get much better treatment.

Perhaps wee nippy should be getting her own house in order before trying to tell us how to live our lives. 

God knows how bad the Scottish NHS will get once the EU are in control of Scotland!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2019)

Dellboy said:



			My sister in-law is already having problems with shortages of cancer drugs, but thatâ€™s more down to the very poorly ran NHS service in Scotland than Brexit.

She is planning to move down here in the South West next year, so she can get much better treatment.

Perhaps wee nippy should be getting her own house in order before trying to tell us how to live our lives.

God knows how bad the Scottish NHS will get once the EU are in control of Scotland!!
		
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Probably better than English trusts are doing at the moment under EU control I would imagine.

Never a good idea to play different trusts against each other for political dogma, I could tell you quite a few sorry tales from family and friends in England and Wales
A good example being that bowel cancer checks start much earlier in Scotland.


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## stefanovic (Sep 14, 2019)

My survival guide for a no deal Brexit.

Operation Yellow Hammer doesn't particularly bother me.

But in the case of Operation Black Swan (the disaster scenario) then I think I'd better dig a well, start growing vegetables, buy a sailing dinghy in case I need to cross the Channel.

This should be our anthem now.
March to the scaffold.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Appallingly
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49690618

Click to expand...

That makes three or even four of them if you include his mate Osborne.   It really is a case of the pot calling the kettle a utensil of colour


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## SocketRocket (Sep 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Hereâ€™s one link, link also mentions not all shortages are linked to Brexit, but how the whole process is fragile.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....d-than-you-think_uk_5d760f0ce4b0fde50c29821f/


Another one and this mentions the risk to the EU.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1V20FQ

Click to expand...

Thanks for those links although after reading them nothing in them addresses my question regarding freight coming into the uk and how this would be held up. Are the stories about shortages in the UK after a no deal BREXIT being manipulated for political gain?


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## Leftie (Sep 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are the stories about shortages in the UK after a no deal BREXIT being manipulated for political gain?
		
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I really can't imagine how that thought ever came into your head..........


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thanks for those links although after reading them nothing in them addresses my question regarding freight coming into the uk and how this would be held up. Are the stories about shortages in the UK after a no deal BREXIT being manipulated for political gain?
		
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Of course they're being manipulated for political gain. Why would the UK stop essential products from reaching the supermarkets and pharmacies? There's products entering the UK from all around the world. Do you see massive queues at customs posts for those products?

Going off at a tangent; there's been stories of 10% hike on the price of cars coming from the EU? Why? Is it because prices are lower between EU countries? Some on here have suggested that buying a product from elsewhere in the world will be more expensive because of shipping costs. A BMW 118 bought in the UK is around Â£17,700. A BMW 118 bought in Egypt is.... wait for it.... Â£11,600. If the UK govt is raising taxes to send to the EU, I wonder what the Price will be when they don't have to? 10% higher, as people have said? Really? Explain the logic in that.


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## chrisd (Sep 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			. A BMW 118 bought in the UK is around Â£17,700. A BMW 118 bought in Egypt is.... wait for it.... Â£11,600.
		
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That's a Pharoah saving ðŸ˜£


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## Dando (Sep 14, 2019)

chrisd said:



			That's a Pharoah saving ðŸ˜£
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤¦ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thanks for those links although after reading them nothing in them addresses my question regarding freight coming into the uk and how this would be held up. Are the stories about shortages in the UK after a no deal BREXIT being manipulated for political gain?
		
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Every part of Brexit from prior to Referendum to today is manipulated for political gain and from every side.

Thatâ€™s exactly my point, who does the man in the street trust, not everybody is level headed and bright enough to make their own mind up, some believe everything the left and right wing media tell them.


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## PieMan (Sep 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So Yellowhammer is base level then, not worst case.
		
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Whatever you think it may be, it's now best part of 6 weeks out of date.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Fully appreciate the work the civil servants do or as we squaddies called you f@&) civvies.
Thanks again.
		
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They also serve who stand and wait ðŸ˜‰


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			They also serve who *only* stand and wait ðŸ˜‰
		
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Nearly,
The Man Who Never Was was on TV last week, excellent film.
Contains the quote from Milton, it is also the motto adopted by 5MI Bn.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Nearly,
The Man Who Never Was was on TV last week, excellent film.
Contains the quote from Milton, it is also the motto adopted by 5MI Bn.
		
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We used it for Dockyard Maties


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## spongebob59 (Sep 14, 2019)

another Tory defects to the lib dums . 
Guess who was at their part conference ðŸ˜‚

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172939679697649664


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## Kellfire (Sep 14, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			another Tory defects to the lib dums .
Guess who was at their part conference ðŸ˜‚

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172939679697649664

Click to expand...

Part conference, part what? Iâ€™m on tenter hooks!


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## Foxholer (Sep 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We *corrupted* it for Dockyard Maties
		
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FTFY


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## Foxholer (Sep 14, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Part conference, part what? Iâ€™m on tenter hooks!
		
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Why? 

Btw. It's tenterhooks - single word!


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## Kellfire (Sep 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Why? 

Btw. It's tenterhooks - single word! 

Click to expand...

Nope, separate words are fine. Sorry to spoil your fun.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Why? 

Btw. It's tenterhooks - single word! 

Click to expand...

Its not. Tenter Hooks are the hooks used to hang fish from in smoke sheds, so they are hooks used to tenter.


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## Kellfire (Sep 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not. Tenter Hooks are the hooks used to hang fish from in smoke sheds, so they are hooks used to tenter.
		
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Tenterhooks and tenter hooks are both fine.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			FTFY
		
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You really are strange ðŸ™„ That added nothing but sarcasm to the thread.


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## IainP (Sep 15, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49648119

ðŸ˜ðŸ˜‰ðŸ‘


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## Foxholer (Sep 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You really are strange ðŸ™„ That added nothing but sarcasm to the thread.
		
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True enough! But (at least) there is some merit in sarcasm, if 'low'.

Applying the same 'test' to your post, the answer is 'Nothing but an insult'!


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## spongebob59 (Sep 15, 2019)

deluded


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 15, 2019)

IainP said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49648119

ðŸ˜ðŸ˜‰ðŸ‘
		
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Should send a copy to all the people on Question Time last week.
Then to all MPs.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 15, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			True enough! But (at least) there is some merit in sarcasm, if 'low'.

Applying the same 'test' to your post, the answer is 'Nothing but an insult'!
		
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Twaddle. My post was a light hearted reply that referred to the term Sailors use for Dockyard Workers,  no insults at all.  Why you needed to chip in with your silly post is beyond my understsnding other than stirring up old resentments.


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## Foxholer (Sep 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle. My post was a light hearted reply...
		
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Wrong post! I was referring to your reply to mine - post 13157! That's why it was quoted! As for 'resentment'.... There's none from/by me!


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## stefanovic (Sep 15, 2019)

So the Lib Dems (once more proving they are the irresponsible party) are going to cancel Brexit, in the event they will come to power.
Last person to leave Britain, please remember to turn off the lights.


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## robinthehood (Sep 15, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			So the Lib Dems (once more proving they are the irresponsible party) are going to cancel Brexit, in the event they will come to power.
Last person to leave Britain, please remember to turn off the lights.
		
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I'd imagine they'll do well on the back of that. Good on them.


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## stefanovic (Sep 15, 2019)

Compared to the loony Libs, Johnson and Gove occupy the centre ground.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 15, 2019)

stefanovic said:



*So the Lib Dems (once more proving they are the irresponsible party) are going to cancel Brexit, in the event they will come to power.*
Last person to leave Britain, please remember to turn off the lights.
		
Click to expand...

To be honest, that's a bit like me posting up how I'm going to spend the prize money when I win the British Open.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I'd imagine they'll do well on the back of that. *Good on them*.
		
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For shamelessly ignoring the democratic will of the people of The United Kingdom? Disgraceful comment. 

Fwiw (nothing I knowðŸ˜) I think the Lib Demâ€™s will again disappear at the next GE. The Lib Dems have always been on the loopy side, and they were always dismissed as a protest vote. They are neither liberal or democratic nowadays only popular with washed up politicians, who failed in other parties who make it their home... until the next vote the people get when they will all lose their seats.


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## Beezerk (Sep 15, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Fwiw (nothing I knowðŸ˜) I think the Lib Demâ€™s will again disappear at the next GE. The Lib Dems have always been on the loopy side, and they were always dismissed as a protest vote. They are neither liberal or democratic nowadays only popular with washed up politicians, who failed in other parties who make it their home... until the next vote the people get when they will all lose their seats.
		
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I really don't see how it can work out for them in a GE, are Labour remain as well now? So that possibly splits the Remain vote (let's face it, another GE would be sort of referendum in disguise) you would think even with toxic Jezza at the helm of Labour they'll still retain a fair but of support. 
It's mad how the urge for power can lead people away from previous pledges and ignore over half the voting population.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			For shamelessly ignoring the democratic will of the people of The United Kingdom? Disgraceful comment.

Fwiw (nothing I knowðŸ˜) I think the Lib Demâ€™s will again disappear at the next GE. The Lib Dems have always been on the loopy side, and they were always dismissed as a protest vote. They are neither liberal or democratic nowadays only popular with washed up politicians, who failed in other parties who make it their home... until the next vote the people get when they will all lose their seats.
		
Click to expand...

You only have to look at the European Election results to see that any calls of the Lib Demâ€™s disappearing will be very wide of the mark, there are millions who want a second referendum and millions who want Brexit cancel - Lib Demâ€™s promise that and there you go , millions of voters.


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			For shamelessly ignoring the democratic will of the people of The United Kingdom? Disgraceful comment.

Fwiw (nothing I knowðŸ˜) I think the Lib Demâ€™s will again disappear at the next GE. The Lib Dems have always been on the loopy side, and they were always dismissed as a protest vote. They are neither liberal or democratic nowadays only popular with washed up politicians, who failed in other parties who make it their home... until the next vote the people get when they will all lose their seats.
		
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Are the LibDems a protest vote or do people vote for them because of their policies and politics? 

I'd hazard a guess its both. I'd also suggest that many disenfranchised centre-left Labour voters might switch to the LibDems.... but is it that simple? The LibDems campaigned in 2017 on a cancel Brexit agenda, and got absolutely hammered. Where have the centre-left Labour AND the Labour Brexit voters got to go? Will the disaffected Tory voters switch to the LibDems, and will the Brexit Party steal Labour and Tory voters?

I'd be very surprised in anyone could call it either way. One things is for sure, if history repeats itself, when both the Tories and Labour get it wrong the Liberals, now LibDems benefit. As for those MP's that switched parties, history hasn't been kind to those that's done it before.


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## Beezerk (Sep 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Are the LibDems a protest vote or do people vote for them because of their policies and politics?

I'd hazard a guess its both. I'd also suggest that many disenfranchised centre-left Labour voters might switch to the LibDems.... but is it that simple? The LibDems campaigned in 2017 on a cancel Brexit agenda, and got absolutely hammered. Where have the centre-left Labour AND the Labour Brexit voters got to go? Will the disaffected Tory voters switch to the LibDems, and will the Brexit Party steal Labour and Tory voters?

I'd be very surprised in anyone could call it either way. One things is for sure, if history repeats itself, when both the Tories and Labour get it wrong the Liberals, now LibDems benefit. As for those MP's that switched parties, history hasn't been kind to those that's done it before.
		
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Do you still think BJ will be after a GE should he somehow get us out by the 31st Oct?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 15, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



*For shamelessly ignoring the democratic will of the people of The United Kingdom?* Disgraceful comment.

Fwiw (nothing I knowðŸ˜) I think the Lib Demâ€™s will again disappear at the next GE. The Lib Dems have always been on the loopy side, and they were always dismissed as a protest vote. They are neither liberal or democratic nowadays only popular with washed up politicians, who failed in other parties who make it their home... until the next vote the people get when they will all lose their seats.
		
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Mate, you really do exaggerate 
It was only the will of the 52%, in no vote ever does everybody accept or follow those who win it, the GE will decide if they have or havenâ€™t got a future, but we live in a Democracy and to me that means we donâ€™t silent the opposition or those who think different to me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 15, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Do you still think BJ will be after a GE should he somehow get us out by the 31st Oct?
		
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The GE will take on a completely different direction if he gets us out with a deal.


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Do you still think BJ will be after a GE should he somehow get us out by the 31st Oct?
		
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Yes. He doesn't have a working majority. If he doesn't have a GE I'd expect every bit of legislation, including budgets will get voted down.


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## Beezerk (Sep 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The GE will take on a completely different direction if he gets us out with a deal.
		
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That's what I mean, if it goes even slightly tats up after we leave the daggers will be out for him. At least at the moment he still has some form of trump card up his sleeve.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, you really do exaggerate 
It was only the will of the 52%, in no vote ever does everybody accept or follow those who win it, the GE will decide if they have or havenâ€™t got a future, but we live in a Democracy and to me that means we donâ€™t silent the opposition or those who think different to me.
		
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As Iâ€™ve said before though, for democracy to work the losing side MUST accept AND ENACT the result, then they can tirelessly work against it as is their democratic right. Itâ€™s the not carrying out the result that is sticking in the craw of a lot of people. Leavers and remainers alike.

And as for it being â€œonly 52%â€ thatâ€™s still a majority...Iâ€™m really surprised youâ€™re trying to play it down, remember one of the parliamentary votes was carried by a single vote. But it was accepted. Thatâ€™s democracy at work.ðŸ‘


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 15, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			As Iâ€™ve said before though, for democracy to work the losing side MUST accept AND ENACT the result, then they can tirelessly work against it as is their democratic right. Itâ€™s the not carrying out the result that is sticking in the craw of a lot of people. Leavers and remainers alike.

And as for it being â€œonly 52%â€ thatâ€™s still a majority...Iâ€™m really surprised youâ€™re trying to play it down, remember one of the parliamentary votes was carried by a single vote. But it was accepted. Thatâ€™s democracy at work.ðŸ‘
		
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Iâ€™m playing it down as much as you big it up.

If an MP believes with every bone in their body that leaving the EU is a bad thing from minute 1 then I genuinely believe they will never support leaving and rightly so.

Genuine question, if the Government canâ€™t get their own party to agree to the deal they negotiated, why should any other party support them? 

Remember, both sides in the referendum promised a deal.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 15, 2019)

I like that the liberals have set their agenda.
I wanted a choice at the election.
I would vote liberal in a Tory stronghold if I wanted to remain because if I was a Tory, labour would be a step too far.

I think the liberals need to shake off the clegg era.. he didnâ€™t do them any favours and was not smart enough to fight his corner.

What we will get is a hung parliament and then it will either be the Tories and Farage in government.. if leaving the EU is that popular. So be careful about banking on a the 4% majority, the last 3 years has been devastating.
I think labour will be the biggest loser.. they will lose the leave voters and the centre left voters are not too keen on them either ( depending on their leave or stay they could go liberal or Farage) 

The battle lines are leave or stay ... this needs determining, all other policies are of no relevance as they cannot be enacted until we leave or stay.


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I like that the liberals have set their agenda.
I wanted a choice at the election.
I would vote liberal in a Tory stronghold if I wanted to remain because if I was a Tory, labour would be a step too far.

I think the liberals need to shake off the clegg era.. he didnâ€™t do them any favours and was not smart enough to fight his corner.

What we will get is a hung parliament and then it will either be the Tories and Farage in government.. if leaving the EU is that popular. So be careful about banking on a the 4% majority, the last 3 years has been devastating.
I think labour will be the biggest loser.. they will lose the leave voters and the centre left voters are not too keen on them either ( depending on their leave or stay they could go liberal or Farage)

The battle lines are leave or stay ... this needs determining, all other policies are of no relevance as they cannot be enacted until we leave or stay.
		
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Seems a good interpretation. But I do wonder how many voters will just not go out to vote?


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## harpo_72 (Sep 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Seems a good interpretation. But I do wonder how many voters will just not go out to vote?
		
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Yes that is a crucial point the students need to stopping whinging and go down the polling station.
We have all been given the right and we should exercise it irrespective of political views

Also remember May thought she would get a strong mandate to leave when she called her election..


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## Fade and Die (Sep 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m playing it down as much as you big it up.

If an MP believes with every bone in their body that leaving the EU is a bad thing from minute 1 then I genuinely believe they will never support leaving and rightly so.
*
Genuine question, if the Government canâ€™t get their own party to agree to the deal they negotiated, why should any other party support them?*

Remember, both sides in the referendum promised a deal.

Click to expand...

Mays deal?... that was a dog with fleas, I donâ€™t blame anyone for not supporting it. My preference is for a no deal Brexit then a GE. Wipe the slate and move on.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Seems a good interpretation. But I do wonder how many voters will just not go out to vote?
		
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The losing side will then claim that those voters would have voted for them so actually they won the vote.


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The losing side will then claim that those voters would have voted for them so actually they won the vote.
		
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I just hope it isn't raining...


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes that is a crucial point the students need to stopping whinging and go down the polling station.
We have all been given the right and we should exercise it irrespective of political views

Also remember May thought she would get a strong mandate to leave when she called her election..
		
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I think May lost because the Labour campaign was stunningly good, and she was obvious by her absence.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think May lost because the Labour campaign was stunningly good, and she was obvious by her absence.
		
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Yes Corbyn turned it round, but I think he is a lame duck now thanks to the right wing press.
I donâ€™t think there was much difference in what was being offered regards the leave EU message, so leavers were appeased. The next GE will be a little more precise on the details of leave or not. 
I am not sure if Corbyn will state his intention, 2nd referendum is cop out and indecisive. Most of the UK voters want a distinct policy ......leave - no deal, leave - deal or remain.. considering Corbyn has a mixture of sentiments in his own party he is pretty much â€œstuffedâ€ . If he makes a decision he will alienate some of his support. I am sure there is room for a left wing leave party but it wonâ€™t necessarily be as popular as the right wing version. So in the end if he doesnâ€™t come up with something special he is just another unpopular union man.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, you really do exaggerate 
*It was only the will of the 52%,* in no vote ever does everybody accept or follow those who win it, the GE will decide if they have or havenâ€™t got a future, but we live in a Democracy and to me that means we donâ€™t silent the opposition or those who think different to me.
		
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All the people of the country were offered the opportunity to vote Paul, the result of that binary vote was to leave, so yes they are proposing to ignore the will of the people.

When we have a GE there are more people who vote against the winning party than for it, yet we accept it as the will of the people.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m playing it down as much as you big it up.

*If an MP believes with every bone in their body that leaving the EU is a bad thing from minute 1 then I genuinely believe they will never support leaving and rightly so.*

Genuine question, if the Government canâ€™t get their own party to agree to the deal they negotiated, why should any other party support them?

Remember, both sides in the referendum promised a deal.

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Genuine question mate; if so many believe that it is so bad to leave, why did so many vote to enact Article 50?  I'm sorry, but they can't push that through and then all discover a conscience; they should have sorted all this  out before pressing the button.

It is just further evidence of their utter incompetence & unsuitability for purpose.


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## IainP (Sep 15, 2019)

Wonder if Pettersen was happy playing under an EU flag?
Asking for a friend ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜ðŸ™‚ðŸ˜‰


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## harpo_72 (Sep 15, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			All the people of the country were offered the opportunity to vote Paul, the result of that binary vote was to leave, so yes they are proposing to ignore the will of the people.

When we have a GE there are more people who vote against the winning party than for it, yet we accept it as the will of the people.
		
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Fair point, but if the tables turn will you believe it ? Remember Theresa May could not get a majority and she was mandated to leave. She presented her vision of leave, and the leavers did not give her full support. The remainers did what they were entitled to do and not support her in any shape or form.

If none of the leave parties can form a government with a majority or club together to form one, then the referendum result is just a historical event that caused turmoil and we will stay in the EU.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 15, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			All the people of the country were offered the opportunity to vote Paul, the result of that binary vote was to leave, so yes they are proposing to ignore the will of the people.

When we have a GE there are more people who vote against the winning party than for it, yet we accept it as the will of the people.
		
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â€œFor shamelessly ignoring the democratic will of the people of The United Kingdomâ€ so why would anyone think the SNP should support that when Scotland overwhelmingly voted to stay.
You can respect the vote without agreeing with it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 15, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Genuine question mate; if so many believe that it is so bad to leave, why did so many vote to enact Article 50?  I'm sorry, but they can't push that through and then all discover a conscience; they should have sorted all this  out before pressing the button.

It is just further evidence of their utter incompetence & unsuitability for purpose.
		
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Maybe because they trusted TM to enact the will of the people and get us out.
Itâ€™s not about conscience itâ€™s about the right deal, the right deal means different things to different people.

I still go back to her and her alone controlling the negotiations, it should of been a cross party team representing the HoCâ€™s.

Just imagine if TM had agreed to the changes JC put forward when they met, in theory weâ€™d be out now as theyâ€™d of had to back it.


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			â€œFor shamelessly ignoring the democratic will of the people of The United Kingdomâ€ so why would anyone think the SNP should support that when Scotland overwhelmingly voted to stay.
You can respect the vote without agreeing with it.
		
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We're going round in circles. These have been the divisive questions that have clouded the argument since Referendum Day+1. It was a UK wide vote, not a regional or country vote. You'll be saying next that London voted Remain, and London should stay in the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 15, 2019)

I dont  like the idea of another referendum, its just not right and just a strategy to reverse the vote which cannot be right.  The result just needs accepting.
Even if there was another referendum (and please lets not use the term 'peoples vote' to sentimentalise it) it cannot be fair to have three options, two of them leave and splitting the leave vote.
How about two options: The deal or no deal, that would be fairer as it would respect the last referendum which they all said they would do and get us out.


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## IanM (Sep 15, 2019)

Rules.... vote till EU gets its way.  Reason enough to want out.

Lib Dims declare that theyâ€™ll cancel Brexit if they win the GE.  If they do win, will they accept the result?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			We're going round in circles. These have been the divisive questions that have clouded the argument since Referendum Day+1. It was a UK wide vote, not a regional or country vote. You'll be saying next that London voted Remain, and London should stay in the EU.
		
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No Iâ€™m not mate, I just donâ€™t expect anyone who voted remain to support leaving, I know people like yourself accept the result, but I donâ€™t accept you (or any remainer) should just shut up and go away.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont  like the idea of another referendum, its just not right and just a strategy to reverse the vote which cannot be right.  The result just needs accepting.
Even if there was another referendum (and please lets not use the term 'peoples vote' to sentimentalise it) it cannot be fair to have three options, two of them leave and splitting the leave vote.
How about two options: The deal or no deal, that would be fairer as it would respect the last referendum which they all said they would do and get us out.
		
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I agree second referendum is pointless .. let the GE decide. But if a second referendum is called remain has to be offered .. otherwise your marginalising a rather large group of people and it wonâ€™t be a case of the people say. Itâ€™s a bit like saying letâ€™s all be vegans or vegans that do eggs when quite frankly  I want a friggin rib eye.


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## Reemul (Sep 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No Iâ€™m not mate, I just donâ€™t expect anyone who voted remain to support leaving, I know people like yourself accept the result, but I donâ€™t accept you (or any remainer) should just shut up and go away.
		
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Yes you don't have to shut up but you do need to accept the vote and move on ,not expect to change the result by any other means. Lets be honest if the vote to remain had won this would have all been forgotten and the leavers would have just moved on.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			â€œFor shamelessly ignoring the democratic will of the people of The United Kingdomâ€ so why would anyone think the SNP should support that when Scotland overwhelmingly voted to stay.
You can respect the vote without agreeing with it.
		
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Hobbit said:



			We're going round in circles. These have been the divisive questions that have clouded the argument since Referendum Day+1. It was a UK wide vote, not a regional or country vote. You'll be saying next that London voted Remain, and London should stay in the EU.
		
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This ^^


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No Iâ€™m not mate, I just donâ€™t expect anyone who voted remain to support leaving, I know people like yourself accept the result, but I donâ€™t accept you (or any remainer) should just shut up and go away.
		
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I don't support Leaving but MY belief is that democracy isn't served till all 3 aspects of a proposal have occurred. "Raise a proposal, vote on the proposal, enact the result of the proposal." All the splitting hairs of was a deal promised etc is just fluff, again in MY mind. The ballot paper had a very distinct question on it - no asterisks saying see para 3b, Deal or No Deal. And for all those who really cared there was plenty of info out there to help them make their choice. And those that really cared got out of bed, into the rain and went and voted. I disagree with their choice but I 100% respect it AND I defend their democratic choice.

Equally, if the passengers on the bus voted to drive over a cliff I'd expect them to change their mind before that vote was enacted. But how do you recognise that without having another referendum, which then just feels so wrong...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 15, 2019)

Reemul said:



			Yes you don't have to shut up but you do need to accept the vote and move on ,not expect to change the result by any other means. Lets be honest if the vote to remain had won this would have all been forgotten and the leavers would have just moved on.
		
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My initial response was F&D about Lib Dem not supporting the vote and wishing to reverse it, they are obviously not ready to accept it and move on.
The reason we havenâ€™t moved as a Country is because Leavers didnâ€™t back TMâ€™s Deal, for some it was not far enough.
There have been plenty of opportunity for us to have left and theyâ€™ve been missed.
Obviously, as I voted to Leave I want us out, but Iâ€™m not going to keep blaming the remainers because we havenâ€™t.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 15, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Fair point, but if the tables turn will you believe it ? Remember Theresa May could not get a majority and she was mandated to leave. *She presented her vision of leave*, and the leavers did not give her full support. The remainers did what they were entitled to do and not support her in any shape or form.

If none of the leave parties can form a government with a majority or club together to form one, then the referendum result is just a historical event that caused turmoil and we will stay in the EU.
		
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Her vision of leave was BRINO, tied us to the EU in perpetuity, was a crock of , choose whichever description you prefer. The reason May couldn't get it over the line was because everyone saw through it; her vision of Leave was to remain.

Can you clarify what you mean by the if the tables turn will you believe it comment


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## SocketRocket (Sep 15, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I agree second referendum is pointless .. let the GE decide. But if a second referendum is called remain has to be offered .. otherwise your marginalising a rather large group of people and it wonâ€™t be a case of the people say. Itâ€™s a bit like saying letâ€™s all be vegans or vegans that do eggs when quite frankly  I want a friggin rib eye.
		
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Do you agree that two leave options and one remain would be unfair?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you agree that two leave options and one remain would be unfair?
		
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There is no way to word it that doesn't split the leave vote.
So itâ€™s leave or remain ,and we have done that already.


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			There is no way to word it that doesn't split the leave vote.
So itâ€™s leave or remain ,and we have done that already.
		
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Yes there is. Though it complicates the 'paper' slightly. 2 questions. 
Q1 Leave/Remain
Q2  *If Leave (Result)* Deal/No Deal

Whether Q2 is separate to or consequential on Q1 would need 'to be established', but that effectively combines 2 separate questions.

Personally, I don't believe in a repeat referendum if the question/conditions hasn't/haven't changed! Article 50 was/is quite clear about the process, so let's get it done!


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## harpo_72 (Sep 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you agree that two leave options and one remain would be unfair?
		
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No, because it has become evident that leave has too many facets.
Thus making it a minority opinion. 
The first referendum was incorrectly worded, remain has always been a known consequence. Peopleâ€™s vision of leave has always differed. 
On here everyone said TMâ€™s deal was poor ... but it had its supporters.
Like it or not leave needs definition, Boris is enacting his vision of leave. He has a minority. 

Hence the GE needs to be laid out with what each party will enact.. leave with deal, leave no deal , remain


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## IainP (Sep 16, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No, because it has become evident that leave has too many facets.
Thus making it a minority opinion.
The first referendum was incorrectly worded, remain has always been a known consequence. Peopleâ€™s vision of leave has always differed.
On here everyone said TMâ€™s deal was poor ... but it had its supporters.
Like it or not leave needs definition, Boris is enacting his vision of leave. He has a minority.

Hence the GE needs to be laid out with what each party will enact.. leave with deal, leave no deal , remain
		
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How about :

Remain with or without Eurozone
Remain with or without Schengen

Or do you only see options on one side of the debate?


Personally having become disinterested in politics early in adulthood mainly due to entrenched party politics, the whole referendum piece I found interesting as it seemed to ignore party lines. Seems a shame that the country couldn't use that to find a better process as we seem heavily back into the party world again.


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## Beezerk (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			There is no way to word it that doesn't split the leave vote.
So itâ€™s leave or remain ,and we have done that already.
		
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Yes there is, as already mentioned last week, Leave With "Deal" and Leave With No Deal.
The referendum to leave or not has already been done, if there's another it should be on how we leave.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 16, 2019)

Jog on


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172965158861361153


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 16, 2019)

Has Boris found his get out? By law he has to ask for an extension but he is going to tell the EU today that if they offer it to him he will reject it. Can he do that on his own? Did the bill not have a clause that if offered an extension then parliament decides whether the UK accepts or not?

Listening to the news this morning no one is giving a counter argument to Boris turning the extension down.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Has Boris found his get out? By law he has to ask for an extension but he is going to tell the EU today that if they offer it to him he will reject it. Can he do that on his own? Did the bill not have a clause that if offered an extension then parliament decides whether the UK accepts or not?

Listening to the news this morning no one is giving a counter argument to Boris turning the extension down.
		
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The bill as I understand it requires the PM to ask for an extension until January if an agreement hasn't been passed by 19th Oct. If the EU says no and offers a different date he must bring it before parliament for a vote on whether to accept it or not. The question seems to be whether Boris has found a loophole in the bill which enables him to either not send the letter asking for the extension or to reject the extension if offered.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The bill as I understand it requires the PM to ask for an extension until January if an agreement hasn't been passed by 19th Oct. If the EU says no and offers a different date he must bring it before parliament for a vote on whether to accept it or not. The question seems to be whether Boris has found a loophole in the bill which enables him to either not send the letter asking for the extension or to reject the extension if offered.
		
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They did say Laws made quickly are often bad Laws so maybe Borisâ€™s legal eagles have spotted a loophole they can exploit. Either that or heâ€™s bluffing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 16, 2019)

I'm guessing the bods on the no-deal side are currently analysing the Bill with a magnifying glass to see if this is an option or another Boris bluff.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm guessing the bods on the no-deal side are currently analysing the Bill with a magnifying glass to see if this is an option or another Boris bluff.
		
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Looks like it could come down to whether Leave or Remain have got the better lawyers.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Looks like it could come down to whether Leave or Remain have got the better lawyers.
		
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Good old lawyers. At least they will be making a good wedge out of all of this. Bless em


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## patricks148 (Sep 16, 2019)

Interesting conundrum for The Libs and Jo Swinson.... if we had election and she was asked to form a coalition with the Tories.... would she???

i'd suspect the same as the last power hungry Lib leader.... in a heartbeat


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## woody69 (Sep 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you agree that two leave options and one remain would be unfair?
		
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The single transferable vote system gets around the split-Brexit-vote problem and guarantees that all three sides are represented, while also guaranteeing a clear majority for the eventual winner.

I strongly disagree that no-deal should be omitted. About 20-25% of the population supports it and a referendum without their favoured option would be a joke and would reinforce all the paranoid/conspiracy nonsense that we read from some people

Similarly, we can't omit a well supported option because the people setting the referendum question reckon it would be bad for the country and would hurt people. If a majority of the voters opt for an act of self-harm because they donâ€™t know a fact from a lie, then let them have their economic and cultural disaster, they deserve it. To do otherwise would validate all the nonsense about the metropolitan liberal deep state conspiracy that the Brexit nutters-wing have been yammering on about for years. None of it is true and we certainly donâ€™t want to make it true.

There is only one way to run a second referendum that is fair and decisive. Three options: WA deal, no deal, no Brexit. Single transferable vote system.


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			...
The first referendum was incorrectly worded, *remain has always been a known consequence*. Peopleâ€™s vision of leave has always differed.
...
		
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I disagree! I certainly wasn't a fan of the idea of creating, and funding, a European Army - currently only a proposition. I'm sure others were/are dubious of both current and potential new proposals unable to be rejected by voting for a change of policy.

The one thing that ALL Leave voters wanted was to leave the EU. It's up to politicians/negotiators to get the best (acceptable) deal, either as part of the leaving, or as soon as possible afterwards.


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Interesting conundrum for The Libs and Jo Swinson.... if we had election and she was asked to form a coalition with the Tories.... would she???

i'd suspect the same as the last power hungry Lib leader.... in a heartbeat

Click to expand...

I'm sure they'd try to do so too. Though how they'd handle the all important Brexit issue where they are in opposite corners, I have no idea! Another Referendum perhaps?

The last Tory/LibDem coalition worked quite well imo. The LDs got the referendum they were pushing for. And, I believe, softened some of the hard-lined Tory ideas. Their 'problem', imo, was that they were deemed ineffective as the public never actually saw their achievements.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yes there is. Though it complicates the 'paper' slightly. 2 questions.
Q1 Leave/Remain
Q2  *If Leave (Result)* Deal/No Deal

Whether Q2 is separate to or consequential on Q1 would need 'to be established', but that effectively combines 2 separate questions.

Personally, I don't believe in a repeat referendum if the question/conditions hasn't/haven't changed! Article 50 was/is quite clear about the process, so let's get it done!
		
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I have already been accused of not understanding what I was voting for last time, as I was to stupid to understand the arguments (lies on both sides).
Not sure if I could handle Two questions!!
Leave / remain has been done ,it should just be WD or ND.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 16, 2019)

IainP said:



			How about :

Remain with or without Eurozone
Remain with or without Schengen

Or do you only see options on one side of the debate?


Personally having become disinterested in politics early in adulthood mainly due to entrenched party politics, the whole referendum piece I found interesting as it seemed to ignore party lines. Seems a shame that the country couldn't use that to find a better process as we seem heavily back into the party world again.
		
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No point talking about that aspect of remain, it was never offered. Perhaps it is something for a later date. But I would also say we have had the opportunity to make those decisions via our representatives, the fact we havenâ€™t suggests we are not interested.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have already been accused of not understanding what I was voting for last time, as I was to stupid to understand the arguments (lies on both sides).
Not sure if I could handle Two questions!!
Leave / remain has been done ,it should just be WD or ND.
		
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The more questions that get asked, the more complicated it gets, the more chance of remain. The question itself is so crucial which is why the original question was simple and binary. You really can't have a referendum with one question leading to another question.

(I do know that your opening line is said in jest etc but the type of question matters which is why, I believe, the Electroral Commission set it last time, not politicians.


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## rksquire (Sep 16, 2019)

Interesting points that Lord Blackheath tried to raise on the House of Lords only for Lord Blunkett to curtail it.....

From Hansard:
*
Lord James of Blackheath*
_ 
Share


*1:* Clause 2, page 2, line 30, at end insert â€œ, including what steps have been taken to ensure that United Kingdom sovereignty has been an essential principle in those negotiations and will be in any forthcoming negotiations.â€


*Lord James of Blackheath (Con)*
 
Share
My Lords, a week ago, I wrote a letter to the Lord Speaker in which I suggested that in certain circumstances which might occur, such as this morning, the entire House of Lords is ineligible to sit. I do not intend to pursue this point, but I want to explain why it occurs. I think it is important to us.

If the Lisbon treaty is allowed to stand and is not wiped away at midnight on 31 October, we are all, every single man jack of us, in breach of our oath on joining this House because we have allowed the omniscience of Parliament to be reduced by the elimination of the veto which was standing in our benefit until the Lisbon treaty. That has far-reaching consequences which go way beyond us and reach into the Palace and the Crown itself. We need to be aware of those implications. If I am right on that assertionâ€”I have taken it to the Table Office and asked it to think about it, so there must be some professional opinions aroundâ€”then we would be ineligible to sit today, and it would mean that this Bill cannot pass the House. I am not pursuing that.

What I am going to say is that I think the basis on which we are going forward from here is wrong because we have a situation in which we are facing a choice between remain, the no-go solution and, as came very much into focus in the latter stages of yesterday, the possible resurrection of the May deal. The May deal and remain both carry the same consequence that they would still leave us in breach of our oath. We need to have our oaths restored to us, which would happen if at midnight on 31 October if the Lisbon treaty was wiped away.

The first person we need to be concerned about in that respect is Her Majesty because we have the power of government placed in our hands by the coronation oath which she swore never to diminish, but we have diminished it for her. In those circumstances, do the British public realise they are being asked to consider a situation which might create a position in which Her Majesty would consider it was essential for her to abdicate? If that occurred, would it ever be possible to resurrect the monarch because nobody else could swear the same coronation oath? Let us be realistic about this. My whole criticism of the situation of opposition to no-go at the moment is that we simply have not informed the British public of what is at stake. It goes way beyond this.

We have this wonderful paper called Yellowhammer, which tells us all the dreadful things that will happen if we do go no-go. My secretary has an alternative list that I have complied called the Black Vulture, which is my list of the things that people do not know about which will happen if we do not go no deal. The first is the hazard it creates for the Crown. The second is: will somebody please tell us the truth about the European defence union? This is by far the biggest issue facing the British public and they know nothing about it officially. Can we please have a proper account of what it entails? Is it really true that the Government have entered into private agreements with the European Community that they will, on completion of remain or whatever it is to be, transfer to the European Union in Brussels the entire control of our entire fighting forces, including all their equipment? [Laughter.] Noble Lords may jest, but it has been done and they should check it out. It is too important to ignore. We must know the truth of this. We must have it clear for the whole public to know. I believe it is true, and I think we should be told. I understand that it is intended that the oath of every serving member of our forces will be cancelled and they will be required to undertake a new oath of loyalty to Brussels. I understand that in recent months, we have had a series of people sent from our Armed Forces to create and install the command and control centres to be used for the control of our troops once we have ceased to have any control over their use, application or deployment. It goes beyond this. They are to take control of our intelligence services, the whole core of Five Eyes. They will have MI6 and the Cheltenham monitoring centre, and we will be completely excluded from it under the new arrangements and have no access either to theâ€”

*Lord Blunkett (Lab)*
 
Share
I wonder whether the noble Lord would be prepared to give way just for one moment. I appeal to him to conclude, because it is not in either his interests or the interests of the Committee for him to continue._


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## drdel (Sep 16, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The more questions that get asked, the more complicated it gets, the more chance of remain. The question itself is so crucial which is why the original question was simple and binary. You really can't have a referendum with one question leading to another question.

(I do know that your opening line is said in jest etc but the type of question matters which is why, I believe, the Electroral Commission set it last time, not politicians.
		
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I agree its impossible to have more than 2 questions when the respondent audience is so big (millions) as statistical normalisation will inevitable bring close results that lie within the expected standard error estimates.

Any sub-set question on the 'leave' option will divide respondents more than Remain because 'remaining' is the status quo and so the any options are more closely related and so it would not lead to actual meaningful questions. Those wanting a 2nd vote know full well that unless you re-run the binary choice the 'leave' options will lead to a low result and, just by the statistics of large numbers, the remain option would 'win'.


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have already been accused of not understanding what I was voting for last time, as I was to stupid to understand the arguments (lies on both sides).
...
		
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Whether you understood.../was too stupid... is irrelevant, as well as being both offensive and the fault of whichever side (or both) made that accusation!


clubchamp98 said:



			...
Not sure if I could handle Two questions!!
...
		
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clubchamp98 said:



			...
Leave / remain has been done ,it should just be WD or ND.
		
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I don't see the point!
If anything (and definitely not a good idea imo) it should be 'This Deal or No Deal' - where 'This Deal' is whatever BoJo can get adjusted from May's Deal! Personally, I'd opt for 'No Deal'. Clean break works best in any 'divorce'!


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## woody69 (Sep 16, 2019)

drdel said:



			I agree its impossible to have more than 2 questions when the respondent audience is so big (millions) as statistical normalisation will inevitable bring close results that lie within the expected standard error estimates.

Any sub-set question on the 'leave' option will divide respondents more than Remain because 'remaining' is the status quo and so the any options are more closely related and so it would not lead to actual meaningful questions. Those wanting a 2nd vote know full well that unless you re-run the binary choice the 'leave' options will lead to a low result and, just by the statistics of large numbers, the remain option would 'win'.
		
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Not with the single transferable vote system.


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## Hobbit (Sep 16, 2019)

For the question/statement, "there's too many versions of Leave..." 

No there isn't. Leave is easy, you just leave. And that is what should have happened. Both sides walk away on the Friday, and both sides sit around a table on the Monday, as 2 totally separate entities, and discuss areas they want some synergy in. That way both sides are going to the table with a desire and a need for something. Once you have several people each saying what they want, defining a specification is difficult as each of them want something a little different. Add in a good number who aren't negotiating in good faith and you've got chaos.

The current version of trying to sort a Leaving deal for the UK isn't working because the other side is also more than happy to drag it out as long as possible in the hope that, a) it just goes away, and b) its scooping Â£1bn a month.

A few years ago my eldest son was part of a trade delegation that went to China. They went with 2 things, the EU rule book for trade and the specifications for the products they wanted to sell. The Chinese delegation turned up with their rules, specs and their products. It was all done and dusted within 3 months.

One thing is true, "where there's a will, there's a way." There's too many wills involved.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			For the question/statement, "there's too many versions of Leave..."

No there isn't. Leave is easy, you just leave. And that is what should have happened. Both sides walk away on the Friday, and both sides sit around a table on the Monday, as 2 totally separate entities, and discuss areas they want some synergy in. That way both sides are going to the table with a desire and a need for something. Once you have several people each saying what they want, defining a specification is difficult as each of them want something a little different. Add in a good number who aren't negotiating in good faith and you've got chaos.

The current version of trying to sort a Leaving deal for the UK isn't working because the other side is also more than happy to drag it out as long as possible in the hope that, a) it just goes away, and b) its scooping Â£1bn a month.

A few years ago my eldest son was part of a trade delegation that went to China. They went with 2 things, the EU rule book for trade and the specifications for the products they wanted to sell. The Chinese delegation turned up with their rules, specs and their products. It was all done and dusted within 3 months.

One thing is true, "where there's a will, there's a way." There's too many wills involved.
		
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If only TM had read this thread 2 years ago.


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## Hobbit (Sep 16, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If only TM had read this thread 2 years ago. 

Click to expand...

The Oxford English dictionary defines it very simply. People complicate by not wanting the starting point to be a clean break. As soon as someone asked for x,y,z as part of a Leave deal it stopped being Leave, and became almost Leave but not quite.

Two separate entities negotiating is straightforward. As a country subjugated by EU rules it was never going to be even the tiniest bit easy.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			If only TM had read this thread 2 years ago. 

Click to expand...

It looks the longer it takes that she did it on purpose.
Or is that giving her to much credit.

Plus the ramifications of staying in hasnâ€™t really been mainstream news.
The Media should spell out what future powers we will give to Brussels.


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## IanM (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			The Media should spell out what future powers we will give to Brussels.
		
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No need.  Junker and Co are now very open about it.  YouTube is full of it.


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## IanM (Sep 16, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173369886606798848
You are literally like stealing my future.


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## jp5 (Sep 16, 2019)

Gee even Luxembourg is taking the mickey out of us now. What a mess we are.


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			It looks the longer it takes that she did it on purpose.
Or is that giving her to much credit.

Plus the ramifications of staying in hasnâ€™t really been mainstream news.
The Media should spell out what future powers we will give to Brussels.
		
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What are they?


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## Pathetic Shark (Sep 16, 2019)

IanM said:



			No need.  Junker and Co are now very open about it.  YouTube is full of it.
		
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I always thought Junker was full of it myself.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What are they?
		
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The EU army seems the obvious one .
If I joined the Army today would I be able to say â€œ I never joined the EU army I want to leaveâ€.

Itâ€™s the ones like this we donâ€™t know about.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I always thought Junker was full of it myself.
		
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Well we may find out soon .
But Boris has to sort his own house first.


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Gee even Luxembourg is taking the mickey out of us now. What a mess we are.
		
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Surely a 'Tub of Lard' or similar should have been there!

Mind you, having just sent off a 'sample' for the NHS Bowel Cancer Screening programme, I could have provided something to replace Bojo!


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			The EU army seems the obvious one .
If I joined the Army today would I be able to say â€œ I never joined the EU army I want to leaveâ€.

Itâ€™s the ones like this we donâ€™t know about.
		
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What? There is  no EU army. Sorry you're just buying into the same old brexit bullcrap that gets peddled around.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What? There is  no EU army. Sorry you're just buying into the same old brexit bullcrap that gets peddled around.
		
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There will be but unfortunately itâ€™s easy to rubbish it as it hasnâ€™t happened yet.
Every federal state needs an army.


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			There will be but unfortunately itâ€™s easy to rubbish it as it hasnâ€™t happened yet.
Every federal state needs an army.
		
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Well yes it's easy to rubbish , because it's rubbish.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Well yes it's easy to rubbish , because it's rubbish.
		
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Now where have I heard that before ?


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Now where have I heard that before ?
		
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How will it work?
Conscription?
The EU take dominion over our armed forces?
Will I be able to join up direct?
Or is it just plain old scaremongering ðŸ˜‰


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## woody69 (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			There will be but unfortunately itâ€™s easy to rubbish it as it hasnâ€™t happened yet.
Every federal state needs an army.
		
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It literally says in Title III Article 3 Security & Defence - The Treaty of Lisbon does not provide for the creation of a European Army or for conscription to any military formations.

So not only is there no sign of it happening, we have a right to veto even if it did. In order NOT to exercise that right of veto we would have to ratify it in Parliament and then put it to the public by referendum.

So, there is no EU Army and defence remains exclusively a matter for member states. The EU has taken steps recently to boost defence cooperation. EU countries are collectively the 2nd largest defence spender in the world after the US, but an estimated 26.4bn euros are wasted every year due to duplication, overcapacity and barriers to procurement. As a result, more than six times as many defence systems are used in Europe than the US. This is where the EU is working to provide the conditions for countries to collaborate more.


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## woofers (Sep 16, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The bill as I understand it requires the PM to ask for an extension until January if an agreement hasn't been passed by 19th Oct. *If the EU says no and offers a different date* he must bring it before parliament for a vote on whether to accept it or not. The question seems to be whether Boris has found a loophole in the bill which enables him to either not send the letter asking for the extension or to reject the extension if offered.
		
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But wouldnâ€™t it be lovely if the EU just says *No .......and doesnâ€™t offer* *a different date?*
That way we would all know where we stand and can get on with it. 
Leave on 31st Oct, no deal, WTO terms, move on.
Everyone I know is heartedly fed up with the whole process, meanwhile politicians of all persuasions have trashed their reputations and canâ€™t be trusted.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

woody69 said:



			It literally says in Title III Article 3 Security & Defence - The Treaty of Lisbon does not provide for the creation of a European Army or for conscription to any military formations.

So not only is there no sign of it happening, we have a right to veto even if it did. In order NOT to exercise that right of veto we would have to ratify it in Parliament and then put it to the public by referendum.

So, there is no EU Army and defence remains exclusively a matter for member states. The EU has taken steps recently to boost defence cooperation. EU countries are collectively the 2nd largest defence spender in the world after the US, but an estimated 26.4bn euros are wasted every year due to duplication, overcapacity and barriers to procurement. As a result, more than six times as many defence systems are used in Europe than the US. This is where the EU is working to provide the conditions for countries to collaborate more.
		
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robinthehood said:



			How will it work?
Conscription?
The EU take dominion over our armed forces?
Will I be able to join up direct?
Or is it just plain old scaremongering ðŸ˜‰
		
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If you just answer my question with five of your own I wonâ€™t learn anything ,but thatâ€™s how propaganda works .

At least Woody explained it. 
But collaborating leads to other things maybe not the near future .
But you canâ€™t say never.


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## IanM (Sep 16, 2019)

Verhofstadt was very clear about EU Army and Federalism in his talks this week.   

Federalism is out of the bag.  The various presidents are finally quite open about it.   But some of you lot are still worried about loo roll shortages!  

But having taken No Deal off the table, we are now stuck with Federalism.  Maybe then SNP and Lib Dims will have to re-brand soon!


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If you just answer my question with five of your own I wonâ€™t learn anything ,but thatâ€™s how propaganda works .

At least Woody explained it.
But collaborating leads to other things maybe not the near future .
But you canâ€™t say never.
		
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But it's too late to explain it.... people based thier votes on this utter garbage.


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## IanM (Sep 16, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Gee even Luxembourg is taking the mickey out of us now. What a mess we are.
		
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Well, its what Remainers wanted.....   Federalism.  Take no deal off the table, spend 3 years blocking.... that your fault mate.


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## Hobbit (Sep 16, 2019)

IanM said:



			Verhofstadt was very clear about EU Army and Federalism in his talks this week.  

Federalism is out of the bag.  The various presidents are finally quite open about it.   But some of you lot are still worried about loo roll shortages! 

But having taken No Deal off the table, we are now stuck with Federalism.  Maybe then SNP and Lib Dims will have to re-brand soon! 

Click to expand...

If you want confirmation of the direction the European Defence and Security policy is going have a look at YouTube. There's plenty of news clips with Merkel, Macron and Juncker advocating a European Army. 3 years ago the Commission confirmed that a new HQ was needed for the EU military HQ. 2 years ago it was opened.

The EU has been deploying troops around the world, under an EU flag and control and command structure, since 2003.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			But it's too late to explain it.... people based thier votes on this utter garbage.
		
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That is your opinion ,you are entitled to it .
But others disagree ,itâ€™s impossible to know what the EU will do if we remain , 
Letâ€™s be honest we will never be allowed to vote again by our own government so we need to get it right now.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If you want confirmation of the direction the European Defence and Security policy is going have a look at YouTube. There's plenty of news clips with Merkel, Macron and Juncker advocating a European Army. 3 years ago the Commission confirmed that a new HQ was needed for the EU military HQ. 2 years ago it was opened.

The EU has been deploying troops around the world, under an EU flag and control and command structure, since 2003.
		
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Really I have just been told thatâ€™s Rubbish !


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How will it work?
Conscription?
The EU take dominion over our armed forces?
Will I be able to join up direct?
Or is it just plain old scaremongering ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...




Hobbit said:



			If you want confirmation of the direction the European Defence and Security policy is going have a look at YouTube. There's plenty of news clips with Merkel, Macron and Juncker advocating a European Army. 3 years ago the Commission confirmed that a new HQ was needed for the EU military HQ. 2 years ago it was opened.

The EU has been deploying troops around the world, under an EU flag and control and command structure, since 2003.
		
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Two very different storyâ€™s .
But who to belive? 
Someoneâ€™s telling porkies.


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## IainP (Sep 16, 2019)

Ref #135250, not sure how well known but what tends to be referred to recently as the "EU flag" started out as the "Council of Europe flag".
Not sure when it became blurred. The council of Europe actually has 47 member states.
So even if the UK did leave the EU, it would remain a member of the council of Europe. (So "flag" image still valid)


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Two very different storyâ€™s .
But who to belive?
Someoneâ€™s telling porkies.
		
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What am I telling porkies about?  We cannot be forced into an EU army.


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## Hobbit (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Two very different storyâ€™s .
But who to belive?
Someoneâ€™s telling porkies.
		
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If you go onto the EU Commission's own website you'll find plenty on the EU's Defence and Security policy. If you go onto a not so reputable site like Wiki, before anyone diss's it, you'll see a list of all the conflicts the EU have sent troops to. You will also see that the overall commander is changed every xx years. Think either a British General has just stepped down, or has just taken over.

At present, each country can say no to sending troops but if they say yes, and something escalates they can't pull them back.

Quite what direction it will all go isn't decided but there is a piece from Juncker kicking about in which he questions the USA's commitment to NATO and calls for the EU forces to be boosted. Germany acknowledge the need but are reluctant, due to history, to fully commit to the wording, although they have said they want the French president to be placed in overall command. Macron is very open about it.

What becomes reality, who knows...........


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What am I telling porkies about?  We cannot be forced into an EU army.
		
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Yes sorry maybe wrong term used.
But you are rubbishing something you canâ€™t possibly predict.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If you go onto the EU Commission's own website you'll find plenty on the EU's Defence and Security policy. If you go onto a not so reputable site like Wiki, before anyone diss's it, you'll see a list of all the conflicts the EU have sent troops to. You will also see that the overall commander is changed every xx years. Think either a British General has just stepped down, or has just taken over.

At present, each country can say no to sending troops but if they say yes, and something escalates they can't pull them back.

Quite what direction it will all go isn't decided but there is a piece from Juncker kicking about in which he questions the USA's commitment to NATO and calls for the EU forces to be boosted. Germany acknowledge the need but are reluctant, due to history, to fully commit to the wording, although they have said they want the French president to be placed in overall command. Macron is very open about it.

What becomes reality, who knows...........
		
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Yes I remember seeing this exact stuff on the news ages ago.
So itâ€™s an army by everything but name. Up to now.


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## Hobbit (Sep 16, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I remember seeing this exact stuff on the news ages ago.
So itâ€™s an army by everything but name. Up to now.
		
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You can't say that! All the hair splitters will call you a liar and a charlatan

It is splitting hairs in some respects but at present each country's army is very much under the control of that country, until it is seconded. Quite what the wording in agreeing each secondment is I honestly don't know but I dare say the terms of reference change with each circumstance.

And until there is no direct command from recruitment onwards, i.e. they become EU employees, not Crown employees, there is no EU army.


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## drdel (Sep 16, 2019)

The irony is that most of the EU military capability of the r27 is from the nations that can least afford it!


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What? There is  no EU army...
		
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Yet!

But plenty of indication that one could well be around the corner.

Exerpt from this doc...

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/...-what-is-europe-really-doing-to-boost-defence 

EU leaders realise that no EU country can tackle the current security threats in isolation. For example French President Macron called for a joint European military project  in 2017, while German chancellor Merkel said â€œwe ought to work on the vision of one day establishing a proper European armyâ€ in her address to the European Parliament in November 2018. Moving towards a security and defence union has been one of the priorities of the Juncker Commission.


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yet!

But plenty of indication that one could well be around the corner.

Exerpt from this doc...

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/...-what-is-europe-really-doing-to-boost-defence

EU leaders realise that no EU country can tackle the current security threats in isolation. For example French President Macron called for a joint European military project  in 2017, while German chancellor Merkel said â€œwe ought to work on the vision of one day establishing a proper European armyâ€ in her address to the European Parliament in November 2018. Moving towards a security and defence union has been one of the priorities of the Juncker Commission.
		
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Sure, but there are 2 separate strands here....
What's the point of the union if you can't collaborate in areas such as defence.
Can we be forced to ? No .


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Sure, but there are 2 separate strands here....
What's the point of the union if you can't collaborate in areas such as defence.
		
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Collaborating is fine - up to a point! Joint European Union Military Project (as per that quote? I'm strongly anti!


robinthehood said:



			Can we be forced to ? No .
		
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H'mm! Not entirely certain about that!


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## Hobbit (Sep 16, 2019)

Currently, the UK still has a veto on military policy in the EU.

Although the Lisbon Treaty has changed what the qualified majority rules are, and lowered the benchmark for laws to be passed, the forming of an EU army falls outside of the Lisbon Treaty.

Whether its being done by the back door, as the EU expands its Security and Defence policy, thats open to each individual's interpretation. And whether a future UK govt, assuming Brexit doesn't happen, decides to go along with a formation of an EU army, who knows...


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If you want confirmation of the direction the European Defence and Security policy is going have a look at YouTube. There's plenty of news clips with Merkel, Macron and Juncker advocating a European Army. 3 years ago the Commission confirmed that a new HQ was needed for the EU military HQ. 2 years ago it was opened.

The EU has been deploying troops around the world, under an EU flag and control and command structure, since 2003.
		
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Stop it Brian, people based their votes on this crap...


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If you want confirmation of the direction the European Defence and Security policy is going have a look at YouTube. There's plenty of news clips with Merkel, Macron and Juncker advocating a European Army. 3 years ago the Commission confirmed that a new HQ was needed for the EU military HQ. 2 years ago it was opened.

The EU has been deploying troops around the world, under an EU flag and control and command structure, since 2003.
		
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Was talking to an old colleague about the EU Army and he doesnâ€™t see a formal one being constructed but more a collaboration in the same way Forces work together with NATO etc - especially from the UK , even if/when we do leave EU we will still work alongside them.


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Stop it Brian, people based their votes on this crap...  

Click to expand...

No, they based them on far far far worse crap than this.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No, they based them on far far far worse crap than this.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know what they based their votes on; and was that any worse than Sophie telling us the best thing about the EU was the NHS?


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			How do you know what they based their votes on; and was that any worse than Sophie telling us the best thing about the EU was the NHS?
		
Click to expand...

The demographics of how/why people voted are freely available.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 16, 2019)

Brussels is no different to any other bureaucracy... Won't be satisfied until world domination is achieved ðŸ˜•...


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## Dando (Sep 16, 2019)

IanM said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173369886606798848
You are literally like stealing my future.
		
Click to expand...

 and people say leavers were thick


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The demographics of how/why people voted are freely available.
		
Click to expand...

You mean the opinions of those conducting the studies are freely available, which isn't the same thing.


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## chrisd (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The demographics of how/why people voted are freely available.
		
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure my ballot paper didn't ask why I voted the way I did


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2019)

Dando said:



			and people say leavers were thick
		
Click to expand...

Like the relative of mine that voted Remain on the basis of how much money the EU give us, completely overlooking the fact that they give us back about a quarter of what we give them.

But like you say mate, it's only the Leavers that were thick.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 16, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm pretty sure my ballot paper didn't ask why I voted the way I did
		
Click to expand...

Correct and no one has asked me since.


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

How many of the people who voted leave in this thread are under 45?


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## adam6177 (Sep 16, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Like the relative of mine that voted Remain on the basis of how much money the EU give us, completely overlooking the fact that they give us back about a quarter of what we give them.
		
Click to expand...

To be honest this is why it's important that we live in a democracy.... Or whatever it is we live in today (according to the lib Dems).

People's knowledge has gaps depending on how interested they are in the subject and what their sources are.... For instance I wouldn't expect anyone that uses the BBC as their knowledge base to have a balanced view.

Also, just think that even to this day people still believe that the bus told the leavers that we'd put Â£350m a week into the NHS, because it fits their agenda.  It honestly baffles me that the arguments are so so weak.[/QUOTE]


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## Wilson (Sep 16, 2019)

IanM said:



			Well, its what Remainers wanted.....   Federalism.  Take no deal off the table, spend 3 years blocking.... that your fault mate.
		
Click to expand...

I donâ€™t know anyone that wanted federalism, thatâ€™s a silly statement. 

As for the EU Army, as Woody69 has posted this isnâ€™t likely to happen, Iâ€™m all for closer working, especially if there is money to be saved, which can go to restoring some of the cuts the Government have made in the last 10 years.


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## chrisd (Sep 16, 2019)

Wilson said:



			I donâ€™t know anyone that wanted federalism, thatâ€™s a silly statement.
		
Click to expand...

But surely they knew what they were voting for when they voted remain??


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## jp5 (Sep 16, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173652886997409799


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## SocketRocket (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How many of the people who voted leave in this thread are under 45?
		
Click to expand...

Most of the people parading outside Parliament, at LibDem conference and members of Momentum look like their not spring chickens.    Anyhow why does it matter, are people over 45 not experienced in worldly matters and bringing life experience to the debate.


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Most of the people parading outside Parliament, at LibDem conference and members of Momentum look like their not spring chickens.    Anyhow why does it matter, are people over 45 not experienced in worldly matters and bringing life experience to the debate.
		
Click to expand...

The point is the demographics are pretty good ðŸ˜‰


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How many of the people who voted leave in this thread are under 45?
		
Click to expand...

I was 27 in 2016. Silly question.. how many are my age are on here anyway? Forums? Sooooo 2008.  oldies far out weigh us young unâ€™s with their archaic love for jackets,  ties and long white socks!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How many of the people who voted leave in this thread are under 45?
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that information freely available?


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Isn't that information freely available?
		
Click to expand...

That makes absolutely no sense.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 16, 2019)

I notice the EU flag was being used against the Europiean Solheim  Cup players names on the television.  Is the team sponsored by the EU or does the EU flag now stand for Europe in sport now.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You can't say that! All the hair splitters will call you a liar and a charlatan

It is splitting hairs in some respects but at present each country's army is very much under the control of that country, until it is seconded. Quite what the wording in agreeing each secondment is I honestly don't know but I dare say the terms of reference change with each circumstance.

And until there is no direct command from recruitment onwards, i.e. they become EU employees, not Crown employees, there is no EU army.
		
Click to expand...

works for EU.
Who pays them while on duty for the EU.


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## Old Skier (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How many of the people who voted leave in this thread are under 45?
		
Click to expand...

How many on this thread are under 45


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Most of the people parading outside Parliament, at LibDem conference and members of Momentum look like their not spring chickens.    Anyhow why does it matter, are people over 45 not experienced in worldly matters and bringing life experience to the debate.
		
Click to expand...

Well we are the ones who have paid for it for 40+ years .


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## Old Skier (Sep 16, 2019)

Looks like we have a very diplomatic Limp Dem candidate standing in North Devon. When questioned on Radio 4 on why there was a stronge leave vote in N Devon her response was because there is a very large white population up here that don't travel much. I could make the excuse that she is American but I think it's because she doesn't really want to win.


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## IainP (Sep 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I notice the EU flag was being used against the Europiean Solheim  Cup players names on the television.  Is the team sponsored by the EU or does the EU flag now stand for Europe in sport now.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know but see https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/brexit-or-article-50-the-phoenix.97927/post-2051952


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## adam6177 (Sep 16, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Looks like we have a very diplomatic Limp Dem candidate standing in North Devon. When questioned on Radio 4 on why there was a stronge leave vote in N Devon her response was because there is a very large white population up here that don't travel much. I could make the excuse that she is American but I think it's because she doesn't really want to win.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜†ðŸ¤£ I'd like to think that you're joking, but I guess not!  are they mates with Jon Snow?


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## Wilson (Sep 16, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But surely they knew what they were voting for when they voted remain??
		
Click to expand...

Yes, to stay in the EU.


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## Old Skier (Sep 16, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜†ðŸ¤£ I'd like to think that you're joking, but I guess not!  are they mates with Jon Snow?
		
Click to expand...

I kid you not


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 16, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜†ðŸ¤£ *I'd like to think that you're joking, but I guess not! * are they mates with Jon Snow?
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



*I kid you not*

Click to expand...

Indeed he doesn't;






https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/...rat-candidates-excruciating-brexit-interview/


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## chrisd (Sep 16, 2019)

Wilson said:



			Yes, to stay in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

And we voted to leave,  and won ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€


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## User62651 (Sep 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I notice the EU flag was being used against the Europiean Solheim  Cup players names on the television.  Is the team sponsored by the EU or does the EU flag now stand for Europe in sport now.
		
Click to expand...

That blue and gold stars EU flag has been used every Ryder Cup since 1991 at Kiawah, hardly new. Used to be a time when no-one gave a jot, just pulled together to try and beat the Yanks. How times have changed, expect some on here would prefer UK golfers to team up with the Americans


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2019)

chrisd said:



			And we voted to leave,  and won ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€
		
Click to expand...

How's that working for ya ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

I watched the Luxembourg premier comments on the news.
So itâ€™s all our fault.
Brits are travelling now to heckle Boris.
But heâ€™s PM and should not run away

If you had a member at a club who caused this much trouble, would you ask them to leave?
Oh wait a minute they are one of the top three net contributors.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How's that working for ya ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

In progress.
But I can see it going either way , that would not surprise me!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 16, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			That blue and gold stars EU flag has been used every Ryder Cup since 1991 at Kiawah, hardly new. Used to be a time when no-one gave a jot, just pulled together to try and beat the Yanks. How times have changed, expect some on here would prefer UK golfers to team up with the Americans 

Click to expand...

What was used before that ?


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## chrisd (Sep 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			How's that working for ya ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely fine


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## Wilson (Sep 17, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			How many on this thread are under 45
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ™‹â€â™‚ï¸


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## Wilson (Sep 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			And we voted to leave,  and won ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€
		
Click to expand...

Do you think youâ€™d win now, with all the information thatâ€™s come out since?


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## chrisd (Sep 17, 2019)

Wilson said:



			Do you think youâ€™d win now, with all the information thatâ€™s come out since?
		
Click to expand...

Yes


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 17, 2019)

Wilson said:



			Do you think youâ€™d win now, with all the information thatâ€™s come out since?
		
Click to expand...

Whatâ€™s this information? 
Iâ€™m sure anyone would expect some disruption when leaving a â€œtrading blocâ€. 
I certainly wasnâ€™t expecting sabotage from those who voted/want differently though.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 17, 2019)

Wilson said:



			Do you think youâ€™d win now, with all the information thatâ€™s come out since?
		
Click to expand...

Like many MPs acting like tin gods and breaking their promises to us.
Like so many people who voted Remain not accepting their vote lost.
Like the job losses we were promised not happening.
Like the deep recession predicted after the vote that never materialised.
Like the sky that didn't fall in.

Oh yes! We have so much more information now  ðŸ™„


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## robinthehood (Sep 17, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes sorry maybe wrong term used.
*But you are rubbishing something you canâ€™t possibly predict*.
		
Click to expand...

Yet you seem quite confident in predicting its creation..


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## SocketRocket (Sep 17, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			That blue and gold stars EU flag has been used every Ryder Cup since 1991 at Kiawah, hardly new. Used to be a time when no-one gave a jot, just pulled together to try and beat the Yanks. How times have changed, *expect some on here would prefer UK golfers to team up with the Americans *

Click to expand...

What a good Idea    They seem to like us as well.


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## IanM (Sep 17, 2019)

That makes Federalism ok then?

Notice how the players draped themselves in their national flags asap for the presentation


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## IanM (Sep 17, 2019)

Wilson said:



			Yes, to stay in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I think many voted to remain in a Common Market.....not a remake of the USSR


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## chrisd (Sep 17, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			What was used before that ?
		
Click to expand...

Up to 1979 it was just GB&I  so, national flags/Union Jack


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## IanM (Sep 17, 2019)

European Tour - who you are playing for in Ryder Cup

Europe  - a continent , a geographical land mass

The Common Market - what we joined in the 70s.  Now known to be a fraudulent smoke screen for the creation of a Federal Europe

The EU - an attempt to set up a Federal Junta  


...just thought I'd clarify for those citing the Ryder Cup as a reason to vote Remain!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yet you seem quite confident in predicting its creation..

Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s the problem everyoneâ€™s guessing.!

But collaborating is happening already so imo itâ€™s a matter of time.
In yours itâ€™s not .
Nobody knows!


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## IanM (Sep 17, 2019)

Wilson said:



			Do you think youâ€™d win now, with all the information thatâ€™s come out since?
		
Click to expand...

With the behaviour of the EU leaders, MPs ignoring their constituents, more openness about removing power from member states, lies about travel and rights to stay, lies about trade balance, information about the the true extent of debt across the Eurozone?

Mmm why do you think the "2nd Ref lobby" are so desperate to have 3 options on the Ballot?


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## chrisd (Sep 17, 2019)

IanM said:



			European Tour - who you are playing for in Ryder Cup

Europe  - a continent , a geographical land mass

The Common Market - what we joined in the 70s.  Now known to be a fraudulent smoke screen for the creation of a Federal Europe

The EU - an attempt to set up a Federal Junta 


...just thought I'd clarify for those citing the Ryder Cup as a reason to vote Remain! 

Click to expand...

Absolutely, it's quite possible to play in the Ryder Cup as a European but not be from an EU member country


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 17, 2019)

There are some funny posts today on the BBC website regarding the Supreme Court sitting today:


Thereâ€™s going to be a lot of misinformation over the next few days about the Supreme Court, so as a public service, Iâ€™d invite lawyers to share some little-known legal facts. Iâ€™ll start:

*Each Supreme Court judge enters court to their own Diana Ross song.#SupremeCourtFacts *
*
The eleven of the twelve judges sitting are the first team*

*The twelfth sits in a dugout out of camera view fully kitted up and ready to deputise, and is formally known as Justice Supersub 
*
*All Supreme Court judges must be wider at the bottom than at the top. This prevents them from being overturned. *


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 17, 2019)

Any legal eagles know how the Loyalists case against LBJ's rebels is going.
Lots of faffing about with different numbered pages last time I looked in.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 17, 2019)

One Supreme Court judge asks the reasonable question why this is a matter for the court, when MPs failed to exercise their right to throw out the PM through vote of no confidence to ward off the prorogation. I think this will turn out to be important Pannickâ€™s response is that his argument is a pure matter of law, that the PM advised the Queen illegally. And that therefore the failure of MPs to throw out Johnson is neither here nor there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2019)

I think it important to understand that Scottish Law is very different in many ways from English Law.  The place of Common Law/Precedent and hence 'Spirit of law' has a much greater importance in Scots Law and judgements than it has in English Law - and hence - as I understand it - why the Scots Session Court were able to reach the decision that they did.  There was nothing weird or out of order i their decision.

This difference is probably most obviously manifest in the Scots criminal court judgement of 'Not Proven'.  In other words - _'we know you did it though the evidence isn't there to *prove *your guilt.  But don't be under any misapprehension - we  know you did it and we are watching you'_. 

In some ways that is perhaps what the Scots court found about Johnson.  We know what you did and why you did it.  That we cannot *prove *illegality on your part in breach of any legal statute* - *that does not stop us coming to that conclusion.


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## chrisd (Sep 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think it important to understand that Scottish Law is very different in many ways from English Law.  The place of Common Law/Precedent and hence 'Spirit of law' has a much greater importance in Scots Law and judgements than it has in English Law - and hence - as I understand it - why the Scots Session Court were able to reach the decision that they did.  There was nothing weird or out of order i their decision.

This difference is probably most obviously manifest in the Scots criminal court judgement of 'Not Proven'.  In other words - _'we know you did it though the evidence isn't there to *prove *your guilt.  But don't be under any misapprehension - we  know you did it and we are watching you'_. 

In some ways that is perhaps what the Scots court found about Johnson.  We know what you did and why you did it.  That we cannot *prove *illegality on your part in breach of any legal statute* - *that does not stop us coming to that conclusion.
		
Click to expand...

But maybe all of the facts were right  - it might have been to lessen the term of Parliament,  to also allow a Queens speech and a reset of Parliament but unless a Court can prove it was only to deny MP's the time to debate Brexit then I dont see how they can allow the cases to succeed. Maybe, it was initially to enable the Queens speech and Boris struck lucky with being able to gain a few extra daysðŸ‘. Anyhow, Parliament would still have closed down for the party conference season.


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## IanM (Sep 17, 2019)

Did I read it wrong, or did the Government not enter a defence for the second Scottish Challenge as the first had already been dismissed?

UK Judges have been heavily pro Europe in the past so the next event will be amusing! 

Meanwhile, quiz question:  Australia has "No Deal" with the EU.   How much trade did it do with the EU last year?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 17, 2019)

One of the key arguments against the PM is that Boris Johnson's prorogation of Parliament for five weeks, for a presumed political purpose of evading scrutiny of his Brexit strategy, is illegal because it's breaches Parliamentary sovereignty.
Lawyers for those challenging the government say that prorogation has to be for a sound and lawful reason - namely in this case the end of a session of Parliament before a Queen's Speech which sets out the government's new agenda.
But Lord Keen, for the prime minister, says there are examples from history of Parliament being prorogued. One from 1948 saw Parliament prorogued for just one day for "naked political reasons", he says.
Without wishing to go into the weeds of that saga, the prorogation came amid a row between the Commons and Lords. One of the Justices, Lady Hale, knows this and says to Lord Keen that closing Parliament on that occasion enforced the will of the democratically-elected MPs.
Lord Keen, for the PM, argues that what the Supreme Court is being asked to do is "go down the road of deciding what is an illegitimate political consideration" to close Parliament. In summary: that's not a legal situation that judges can interfere in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			One of the key arguments against the PM is that Boris Johnson's prorogation of Parliament for five weeks, for a presumed political purpose of evading scrutiny of his Brexit strategy, is illegal because it's breaches Parliamentary sovereignty.
Lawyers for those challenging the government say that prorogation has to be for a sound and lawful reason - namely in this case the end of a session of Parliament before a Queen's Speech which sets out the government's new agenda.
But Lord Keen, for the prime minister, says there are examples from history of Parliament being prorogued. One from 1948 saw Parliament prorogued for just one day for "naked political reasons", he says.
Without wishing to go into the weeds of that saga, the prorogation came amid a row between the Commons and Lords. One of the Justices, Lady Hale, knows this and says to Lord Keen that closing Parliament on that occasion enforced the will of the democratically-elected MPs.
Lord Keen, for the PM, argues that what the Supreme Court is being asked to do is "go down the road of deciding what is an illegitimate political consideration" to close Parliament. *In summary: that's not a legal situation that judges can interfere in.*

Click to expand...

Which may well be true under English Law - and I assume as that would be the case the UK Supreme Court must operate under English Law - just saying it doesn't mean that the Scots Session Court judges were wrong.  They just adjudged that they knew why Johnson did it - even although he might not have broken any Legal Statute - and under Scots Law they could find his actions *unlawful *- though not *illegal*.


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## robinthehood (Sep 17, 2019)

IanM said:



			Did I read it wrong, or did the Government not enter a defence for the second Scottish Challenge as the first had already been dismissed?

UK Judges have been heavily pro Europe in the past so the next event will be amusing!

Meanwhile, quiz question:  Australia has "No Deal" with the EU.   How much trade did it do with the EU last year?
		
Click to expand...


about 10% of what the UK does?


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think it important to understand that Scottish Law is very different in many ways from English Law.  The place of Common Law/Precedent and hence 'Spirit of law' has a much greater importance in Scots Law and judgements than it has in English Law - and hence - as I understand it - why the Scots Session Court were able to reach the decision that they did.  There was nothing weird or out of order i their decision.

This difference is probably most obviously manifest in the Scots criminal court judgement of 'Not Proven'.  In other words - _'we know you did it though the evidence isn't there to *prove *your guilt.  But don't be under any misapprehension - we  know you did it and we are watching you'_.

In some ways that is perhaps what the Scots court found about Johnson.  We know what you did and why you did it.  That we cannot *prove *illegality on your part in breach of any legal statute* - *that does not stop us coming to that conclusion.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting point Hugh. And I agree that Boris hasn't acted in the spirit of 'the game.' But here's a question; if the evidence isn't there and the court, as you say, is saying we think you're guilty, why can't the accused flip it around and say "that's slander/defamation of character. You prove it."


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 17, 2019)

The Supreme Court trumps all does it not? Above English and Welsh law, Scottish law. If the Supreme Court says it is okay then the ruling of the Scottish judges becomes irrelevant, as does the English / Welsh judges if the decision goes against the govt.

This largely seems to be down to interpretation rather a clear cut break the law, has not broken the law. Never that satisfactory when that is the case but there you go.


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Interesting point Hugh. And I agree that Boris hasn't acted in the spirit of 'the game.' But here's a question; if the evidence isn't there and the court, as you say, is saying we think you're guilty, why can't the accused flip it around and say "that's slander/defamation of character. You prove it."
		
Click to expand...

I believe that, appeals aside, the fact that a trial has been held and a verdict obtained, a consequential slander/defamation claim based purely on the trial result being 'not proven' would be 'booted out of court'. The appeal process is meant to provide sufficient recourse for parties who believe an injustice has been done.


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The Supreme Court trumps all does it not? Above English and Welsh law, Scottish law. If the Supreme Court says it is okay then the ruling of the Scottish judges becomes irrelevant, as does the English / Welsh judges if the decision goes against the govt.

This largely seems to be down to interpretation rather *than* a clear cut *broke* the law, has not broken the law. Never that satisfactory when that is the case but there you go.
		
Click to expand...

Given my amendments in bold, I agree.

Though I wonder if, ironically, a further appeal to the ECJ might be available! I don't think it would (and am pretty sure the Supreme Court's ruling would be upheld anyway, even if it could be heard in time), but an 'interesting 'what-if'!


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 17, 2019)

Bad use of English , well corrected Foxholer .

If this went to the ECJ I think it would make many erupt with good reason. The ECJ judging a UK Brexit issue ? Ouch


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## IanM (Sep 17, 2019)

Good summary Bob, but missing the doctrine of the EU


robinthehood said:



			about 10% of what the UK does?
		
Click to expand...

a) Guess again! 

b) How do they do any on "NO Deal?"   Everything stops and the Sky falls in surely!


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Bad use of English , well corrected Foxholer .

If this went to the ECJ I think it would make many erupt with good reason. The ECJ judging a UK Brexit issue ? Ouch
		
Click to expand...

Interesting thought though eh!  Had to smile at the possibility!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 17, 2019)

IanM said:



			Did I read it wrong, or did the Government not enter a defence for the second Scottish Challenge as the first had already been dismissed?

UK Judges have been heavily pro Europe in the past so the next event will be amusing!

Meanwhile, quiz question:  Australia has "No Deal" with the EU.   How much trade did it do with the EU last year?
		
Click to expand...

Yes it will
A lot would be my guess!


----------



## clubchamp98 (Sep 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I believe that, appeals aside, the fact that a trial has been held and a verdict obtained, a consequential slander/defamation claim based purely on the trial result being 'not proven' would be 'booted out of court'. The appeal process is meant to provide sufficient recourse for parties who believe an injustice has been done.
		
Click to expand...

It certainly would be an injustice if you were innocent.

Not saying Boris is though.


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

IanM said:



			Meanwhile, quiz question:  Australia has "No Deal" with the EU.   How much trade did it do with the EU last year?
		
Click to expand...

Very little, about Â£12bn in exports. To give you an idea of how it compares to the UK, the UK exported over Â£280bn to the EU.


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## IanM (Sep 17, 2019)

Eh, no , that's no where near the figure.  Auz trade with the European Union (EU) was valued at $69.3 billion in 2016

But, even if you are correct.... the issue is the constant "crash out" cobblers, about everything stopping in the absence of a Deal.  Inestingly, talks are in progress to limit the current level of tariffs.

But of course, the EU isn't desperate to keep Auz paying its annual subs is it!  

Go and search who owes who how much within the EU in terms of bailouts.   Wait till you see what the repayment when it goes pop will do to your tax!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 17, 2019)

IanM said:



			Eh, no , that's no where near the figure.  Auz trade with the European Union (EU) was valued at $69.3 billion in 2016 

But, even if you are correct.... the issue is the constant "crash out" cobblers, about everything stopping in the absence of a Deal.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s interesting what Do Australia make that Europe canâ€™t make themselves bar Kangaroo steak.


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			It certainly would be an injustice if you were innocent.
...
		
Click to expand...

That's a completely different issue!


clubchamp98 said:



			...
Not saying Boris is though.
		
Click to expand...

I certainly believe it was 'managed'! But we'll see how the Supreme Court rules!


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

IanM said:



			Eh, no , that's no where near the figure.

But, even if you are correct.... the issue is the constant "crash out" cobblers, about everything stopping in the absence of a Deal.
		
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That's the figure on the Aus govt's own website. Total trade is over Aus$60bn, with there being a deficit - more imported than exported.

Just as an aside, note that the figure quoted on the Aus Govt's website is in Aus$, which are about 55p to the pound.

Trade won't stop for all sorts of reasons. For example, buyers may struggle to find new suppliers at short notice. And some sellers may look to take a hit on price to retain their customer base. The argument will come when the standards/CE marking is questioned.


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thatâ€™s interesting what Do Australia make that Europe canâ€™t make themselves bar Kangaroo steak.
		
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It isn't just what they make. A lot of exports out of Aus is raw material and ores, e.g. gold. A third of Aus exports to the EU is gold to the UK.


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## PieMan (Sep 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A third of Aus exports to the EU is gold to the UK.
		
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Ah, that's who Gordon flogged all our gold to then on the cheap! They're now selling it back bless em! ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜€


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thatâ€™s interesting what Do Australia make that Europe canâ€™t make themselves bar Kangaroo steak.
		
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Beef and Sheep in the 'off-season' for EU. Rice and Sugar. And, of course, minerals - BHP was at one time (and maybe still is) the world's largest mining company! Silver, Lead, Gold particularly.

Oh and Barramundi - competes (with Halibut) for 'favourite fish'!


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## robinthehood (Sep 17, 2019)

IanM said:



			Good summary Bob, but missing the doctrine of the EU


a) Guess again! 

b) How do they do any on "NO Deal?"   Everything stops and the Sky falls in surely!
		
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9% and they are currently negotiating a FTA


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Interesting point Hugh. And I agree that Boris hasn't acted in the spirit of 'the game.' But here's a question; if the evidence isn't there and the court, as you say, is saying we think you're guilty, why can't the accused flip it around and say "that's slander/defamation of character. You prove it."
		
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Maybe because _Not Proven i_s a verdict that if challenged opens up the defendant to further investigation - and such evidence that was not available might then be available.  I don't know if new evidence becomes admissible if the verdict is challenged - I suspect it might do under the 'we are watching you' aspect of the verdict - or maybe an appeal judge - in reconsidering the evidence - might reach a different conclusion - and not that which the defendant wants.  So maybe contesting a 'Not Proven' verdict is something that a lawyer for a defendant might normally advise against.

Not proven is an acquittal and I understand that appeals can only be on 'points of law'.  And Scots judgments are made on more than 'points of law'

http://theconversation.com/scotland...when-lack-of-evidence-fails-to-convict-108286


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## Griffsters (Sep 17, 2019)

IanM said:



			But, even if you are correct.... the issue is the constant "crash out" cobblers, about everything stopping in the absence of a Deal.  Inestingly, talks are in progress to limit the current level of tariffs.
		
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You seem to be conflating a no deal brexit with future trade talks and comparing them to Australia?

Issues so complex they require experts in their field to unravel - this is the problem with Brexit. Many have dispensed with expert opinion because it doesn't match their deeply entrenched bias. So, people post all manner of bollocks that your average layman doesn't have the knowledge to unravel and the poster is oblivious to their ignorance.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 17, 2019)

Good summation of today's court proceeding s

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-17...pm-or-mps-are-sovereign-writes-robert-peston/


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## Pathetic Shark (Sep 17, 2019)

Brexiteers are 'insular, closed and selfish' says Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson

Which is pretty rich coming from someone who has already decided to never accept a vote to leave no matter what majority of people voted for it.  She really is utterly deluded.


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe because _Not Proven i_s a verdict that if challenged opens up the defendant to further investigation - and such evidence that was not available might then be available.  I don't know if new evidence becomes admissible if the verdict is challenged - I suspect it might do under the 'we are watching you' aspect of the verdict - or maybe an appeal judge - in reconsidering the evidence - might reach a different conclusion - and not that which the defendant wants.  So maybe contesting a 'Not Proven' verdict is something that a lawyer for a defendant might normally advise against.

Not proven is an acquittal and I understand that appeals can only be on 'points of law'.  And Scots judgments are made on more than 'points of law'

http://theconversation.com/scotland...when-lack-of-evidence-fails-to-convict-108286

Click to expand...

Didn't Scott call it the Bastard Verdict, too open to interpretation by both sides. In this case, without a jury, if someone as learned as a judge can't decide I'm more inclined to think it an innocent verdict. 

And without evidence it becomes his word against their word. And in those circumstances the judgement carries a bias.

Don't get me wrong, I think Johnson is as guilty as sin but the guilty verdict is an educated guess - there's no hard evidence to support it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2019)

Unbelievable:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173974198810755073


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## robinthehood (Sep 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Unbelievable:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173974198810755073

Click to expand...

Doing brexiteers proud since 2016


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## User62651 (Sep 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Doing brexiteers proud since 2016
		
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These types do the Leave side no favours at all, just reinforces stereotypes which is a shame. Protest by all means but keep it civil.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Unbelievable:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173974198810755073

Click to expand...




pauldj42 said:



			Unbelievable:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173974198810755073

Click to expand...


Freedom of speech. Even scruffy cretins have a voice but they have every right to be annoyed regardless of what council estate they was dragged up from.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Freedom of speech. Even scruffy cretins have a voice but they have every right to be annoyed regardless of what council estate they was dragged up from.
		
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Racist Abuse isnâ€™t freedom of speech, and nobody said they donâ€™t have a right to be annoyed.

Nice to see you stereotypeing them though!


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## Griffsters (Sep 17, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Brexiteers are 'insular, closed and selfish' says Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson

Which is pretty rich coming from someone who has already decided to never accept a vote to leave no matter what majority of people voted for it.  She really is utterly deluded.
		
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To be fair, at least its a clear position. If they win the election they revoke and as they are clearly campaigning on that and it is their policy it would be a democratic mandate whether you like it or not.

The irony being that the referendum was advisory, if it had been binding it would have been revoked due to irregularities with the campaign and minor issue of people being lied to. Like they still are.


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

Griffsters said:



			To be fair, at least its a clear position. If they win the election they revoke and as they are clearly campaigning on that and it is their policy it would be a democratic mandate whether you like it or not.

The irony being that the referendum was advisory, if it had been binding it would have been revoked due to irregularities with the campaign and minor issue of people being lied to. Like they still are.
		
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But would the Leave verdict be reinstated due to Cameron's and Osbourne's lies?


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## Dando (Sep 17, 2019)

Griffsters said:



			To be fair, at least its a clear position. If they win the election they revoke and as they are clearly campaigning on that and it is their policy it would be a democratic mandate whether you like it or not.

The irony being that the referendum was advisory, if it had been binding it would have been revoked due to irregularities with the campaign and minor issue of people being lied to. Like they still are.
		
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Give the â€œadvisoryâ€ and â€œnon bindingâ€ crap a rest as itâ€™s boring
We were promised that the result would be implemented


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## Dando (Sep 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But would the Leave verdict be reinstated due to Cameron's and Osbourne's lies?
		
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The remain side only had â€œmis truthsâ€


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## Griffsters (Sep 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But would the Leave verdict be reinstated due to Cameron's and Osbourne's lies?
		
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Who knows, its all hypothetical - maybe the referendum would have been re-run. It probably depends if a court ruled the remain campaign was illegal like the Leave campaign was ruled.


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## Griffsters (Sep 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			Give the â€œadvisoryâ€ and â€œnon bindingâ€ crap a rest as itâ€™s boring
We were promised that the result would be implemented
		
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Facts can be a tad boring and inconvenient sometimes - particularly if they challenge long held bias.


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## robinthehood (Sep 17, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Brexiteers* are 'insular, closed and selfish' says Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson*

Which is pretty rich coming from someone who has already decided to never accept a vote to leave no matter what majority of people voted for it.  She really is utterly deluded.
		
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It's worse than that Jim


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173974198810755073


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## adam6177 (Sep 17, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			These types do the Leave side no favours at all, just reinforces stereotypes which is a shame. Protest by all means but keep it civil.
		
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The cynic in me wonders if they really are Brexit supporters.... Would you put it past the remainers to plant these people?  I wouldn't.


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## robinthehood (Sep 17, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			The cynic in me wonders if they really are Brexit supporters.... Would you put it past the remainers to plant these people?  I wouldn't.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
Oof
I really have heard it all now.


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## Griffsters (Sep 17, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			The cynic in me wonders if they really are Brexit supporters.... Would you put it past the remainers to plant these people?  I wouldn't.
		
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This forum is GOLD


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## Fade and Die (Sep 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Unbelievable:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173974198810755073

Click to expand...

Utter morons, but fortunately few in number and definitely not representative of the 17M.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 17, 2019)

Griffsters said:



			Facts can be a tad boring and inconvenient sometimes - particularly if they challenge long held bias.
		
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Would that include the fact that the public were promised that the result of the non-binding referendum would be implemented? 

Or is it excluded because it challenges your long held bias?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Utter morons, but fortunately few in number and definitely not representative of the 17M.
		
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Of course theyâ€™re not representative of all those who voted Leave, just those of us who were brought up on a council estate.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 17, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Brexiteers are 'insular, closed and selfish' says Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson

Which is pretty rich coming from someone who has already decided to never accept a vote to leave no matter what majority of people voted for it.  She really is utterly deluded.
		
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Cannot see the point of listening to her, itâ€™s like me promising the family we will buy a mansion when I win the Masters next year!ðŸ˜„


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Utter morons, but fortunately few in number and definitely not representative of the 17M.
		
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Not according to the usual suspects on here.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			The cynic in me wonders if they really are Brexit supporters.... Would you put it past the remainers to plant these people?  I wouldn't.
		
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Seriously ? ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ Just imagine what you would think if someone who voted leave had come out with a statement like that 



Jamesbrown said:



			Freedom of speech. Even scruffy cretins have a voice but they have every right to be annoyed regardless of what council estate they was dragged up from.
		
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Racist abuse is not freedom of speech


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## adam6177 (Sep 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seriously ? ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ Just imagine what you would think if someone who voted leave had come out with a statement like that
		
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I'd consider it a possibility, I'm not that blinkered to think that low blows and tricks are beyond politicians who are trying to get their way.... These people are hardly honest are they.


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## Griffsters (Sep 17, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Would that include the fact that the public were promised that the result of the non-binding referendum would be implemented?

Or is it excluded because it challenges your long held bias?
		
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Its important to all keep challenging the information we read, asking questions and looking for agendas. Regarding Brexit, I think that events that have unfolded and the evidence that has come to light after the referendum simply can't be ignored.


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

Griffsters said:



			Facts can be a tad boring and inconvenient sometimes - particularly if they challenge long held bias.
		
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The advisory and non-binding bit is known by everyone and their dog, just as when Article 50 was triggered and the Withdrawal Act was enshrined in law the advisory and non-binding just became hot air and yesterday's news... The UK is almost 3 years past all that rubbish.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I'd consider it a possibility, I'm not that blinkered to think that low blows and tricks are beyond politicians who are trying to get their way.... These people are hardly honest are they.
		
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You seriously think itâ€™s a possibility that politicians would stoop that low to organise people to racially abuse people ?!


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You seriously think itâ€™s a possibility that politicians would stoop that low to organise people to racially abuse people ?!
		
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Remind me what John McDonnell incited people to do this year...


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Remind me what John McDonnell incited people to do this year...
		
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No idea ? But incite and organise two different levels


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No idea ? But incite and organise two different levels
		
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Of course it is Phil.. methinks you're being obtuse on purpose. Do you honestly believe that McDonnell's version of protest, and that of Momentum is always respectful? Politicians know how people protest, they know their followers and how emotive the subject matter is. To expect anything else is naive, and I don't think politicians are naive. 

You've only got to read how Labour's own investigation into anti-semitism was manipulated and corrupted by the leader's office to see just how honest politicians are.


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## Griffsters (Sep 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The advisory and non-binding bit is known by everyone and their dog, just as when Article 50 was triggered and the Withdrawal Act was enshrined in law the advisory and non-binding just became hot air and yesterday's news... The UK is almost 3 years past all that rubbish.
		
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 Pretty much every aspect of Brexit has been repeated ad infinitum for the past 3 years and there is still no consensus. If this, but that, he lied , she lied, this will be cheaper that will be cheaper on...and on....and on...


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Of course it is Phil.. methinks you're being obtuse on purpose. Do you honestly believe that McDonnell's version of protest, and that of Momentum is always respectful? Politicians know how people protest, they know their followers and how emotive the subject matter is. To expect anything else is naive, and I don't think politicians are naive. 

You've only got to read how Labour's own investigation into anti-semitism was manipulated and corrupted by the leader's office to see just how honest politicians are.
		
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I have no idea what McDonnell has done 

I just find it amusing that when itâ€™s shown that a bunch of Brexiteers ( or whatever the plural is ) is seen to be throwning racist abuse amongst the odd Nazi symbol the response from some isnâ€™t condemnation of a disgrace act but more trying to deflect blame onto people who voted leave instead. But I guess thatâ€™s the way the whole three years have been - many believing they are able to sit up that high moral horse when in truth many are as low as each other


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## adam6177 (Sep 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You seriously think itâ€™s a possibility that politicians would stoop that low to organise people to racially abuse people ?!
		
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I already said I did.  Honestly I think it's naive to discount it as an option.... We don't live in a fluffy utopia where people in power won't do whatever it takes to discredit the opposition to get the win.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no idea what McDonnell has done

I just find it amusing that when itâ€™s shown that a bunch of Brexiteers ( or whatever the plural is ) is seen to be throwning racist abuse amongst the odd Nazi symbol the response from some isnâ€™t condemnation of a disgrace act but more trying to deflect blame onto people who voted leave instead. But I guess thatâ€™s the way the whole three years have been - many believing they are able to sit up that high moral horse when in truth many are as low as each other
		
Click to expand...

Careful you dont explode that irony meter again.


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no idea what McDonnell has done

I just find it amusing that when itâ€™s shown that a bunch of Brexiteers ( or whatever the plural is ) is seen to be throwning racist abuse amongst the odd Nazi symbol the response from some isnâ€™t condemnation of a disgrace act but more trying to deflect blame onto people who voted leave instead. But I guess thatâ€™s the way the whole three years have been - many believing they are able to sit up that high moral horse when in truth many are as low as each other
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m surprised you can even see us plebs from that high horse youâ€™re never off. And I wasnâ€™t deflecting, just saying that all sides are at it. You took it down to deflecting blame. 

Do you honestly think anyone on here defends nazism and racial abuse? Iâ€™ve not seen anyone defend it.

But as for annoying protesters, Iâ€™ve stopped watching the Beebâ€™s live broadcasts from Parliament Square because of that idiot Remainer with the megaphone.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2019)

I canâ€™t believe people on this forum, regardless of how they voted in the referendum, arenâ€™t simply condemning the behaviour and language in that video.

Post a video of the Lib Dem leader or one of the EU ministers making a statement and people are all over it.

People defending it or questioning whoâ€™s behind it is beyond me.......still, didnâ€™t take long to bring Labour in to it.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			These types do the Leave side no favours at all, just reinforces stereotypes which is a shame. Protest by all means but keep it civil.
		
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True but unfortunately there appears to suit one on here who apart from one liners rarely offers anything constructive, I think he's in the Jo Swinson arrogant trough.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Careful you dont explode that irony meter again.
		
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Once again SR shows his hypocrisy side by posting in the style that he does nothing but whinge about ðŸ™„


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I already said I did.  Honestly I think it's naive to discount it as an option.... We don't live in a fluffy utopia where people in power won't do whatever it takes to discredit the opposition to get the win.
		
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So instead of condemning the actions you look to potentially place the blame on leavers instead - that says it all about this whole sorry 3 years


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Iâ€™m surprised you can even see us plebs from that high horse youâ€™re never off. And I wasnâ€™t deflecting, just saying that all sides are at it. You took it down to deflecting blame. 

Do you honestly think anyone on here defends nazism and racial abuse? Iâ€™ve not seen anyone defend it.

But as for annoying protesters, Iâ€™ve stopped watching the Beebâ€™s live broadcasts from Parliament Square because of that idiot Remainer with the megaphone.
		
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â€œUs plebsâ€ - I donâ€™t recall my post being aimed at you in anyway shape or form 

I never said â€œyouâ€ were deflecting anything , i also never said anyone was â€œdefending nazism and racist abuseâ€ 

And my posts finished off by saying many are as low as each other â€œOn both sidesâ€ ðŸ™„


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## adam6177 (Sep 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So instead of condemning the actions you look to potentially place the blame on leavers instead - that says it all about this whole sorry 3 years
		
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Sorry Phil, I'll make sure to check with you on posting protocol in the future.

Get over yourself.


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I canâ€™t believe people on this forum, regardless of how they voted in the referendum, arenâ€™t simply condemning the behaviour and language in that video.

Post a video of the Lib Dem leader or one of the EU ministers making a statement and people are all over it.

People defending it or questioning whoâ€™s behind it is beyond me.......still, didnâ€™t take long to bring Labour in to it.

Click to expand...

Aren't people allowed to post up different slants? Isn't that what a debate is. Why can't the debate be broaden out?

Why can't people post up their views on John McDonnell's incitement. Personally, I see them as peas in the same pod. If you think McDonnell's incitement is ok doesn't that mean you're also defending a type of protest that goes beyond the normally accepted protests?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Aren't people allowed to post up different slants? Isn't that what a debate is. Why can't the debate be broaden out?

Why can't people post up their views on John McDonnell's incitement. Personally, I see them as peas in the same pod. If you think McDonnell's incitement is ok doesn't that mean you're also defending a type of protest that goes beyond the normally accepted protests?
		
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What has McDonnell got to do with that video? Nothing, absolutely nothing, all started by 1 poster saying it wouldnâ€™t be a surprise if that protest was organised by somebody in the leave campaign, that then jumped to a politician and then the leap to McDonnell, talk about a dodgy trail.

If you want to discuss McDonnell and Momentum fill your boots, but to somehow link it to that video is unreal.

Some posters have had a dig at LP and others, but yet have stayed silent on that video, that speaks volumes to me.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Once again SR shows his hypocrisy side by posting in the style that he does nothing but whinge about ðŸ™„
		
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It just exploded.  What's the weather like up there on that horse, you constantly take your sanctimonious stance with anyone who dares to have an opinion different to your own then start blabbing when challenged ðŸ™„


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2019)

There seem to be the odd poster with double standards of here. Not a word of condemnation against the stereotype image of leavers by the leader of the Lib Dems and her N Devon candidate. Statements that they have been making unfortunately bring out the worst in people and although nobody can condone the idiots in the video it's easy to understand why people get a tad upset.

It's unfortunate that there are some small minded people that can't see it's a minority and most leavers like remainers are normal.


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## Beezerk (Sep 17, 2019)

I'll know to skip the next 5 pages of utter bowlocks now the thread anchor is on the scene


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What has McDonnell got to do with that video? Nothing, absolutely nothing, all started by 1 poster saying it wouldnâ€™t be a surprise if that protest was organised by somebody in the leave campaign, that then jumped to a politician and then the leap to McDonnell, talk about a dodgy trail.

If you want to discuss McDonnell and Momentum fill your boots, but to somehow link it to that video is unreal.

Some posters have had a dig at LP and others, but yet have stayed silent on that video, that speaks volumes to me.
		
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You're drawing conclusions without evidence. Some people, me for one, haven't bothered watching it with the sound on. If someone says its racist, I for one aren't arguing with that. And yes I abhor it to the nth degree - satisfied? However, you want a narrow debate and I widened it. You don't draw up the rules on the debate, as I don't. If you don't like the fact I broadened it, tough. Disagree with me by all means but don't try and censor me for it.

Your defence of Labour, on countless occasions, is almost becoming obsessive. I label McDonnell, not Corbyn, as bad and as dangerous as those that are in that vid. For me, he's almost a Himmler, and given power if in govt he actually, genuinely scares me. Do I think McDonnell could incite and organise violent protests. I doubt he'd organise one but he knows his target audience, and if he says people should go and protest at xx, he knows he'll get the extremists there as well as the more respectable protesters.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2019)

What has McDonnell done recently ( obviously not his history which is a disgrace in regards his links to IRA ) ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You're drawing conclusions without evidence. Some people, me for one, haven't bothered watching it with the sound on. If someone says its racist, I for one aren't arguing with that. And yes I abhor it to the nth degree - satisfied? However, you want a narrow debate and I widened it. You don't draw up the rules on the debate, as I don't. If you don't like the fact I broadened it, tough. Disagree with me by all means but don't try and censor me for it.

Your defence of Labour, on countless occasions, is almost becoming obsessive. I label McDonnell, not Corbyn, as bad and as dangerous as those that are in that vid. For me, he's almost a Himmler, and given power if in govt he actually, genuinely scares me. Do I think McDonnell could incite and organise violent protests. I doubt he'd organise one but he knows his target audience, and if he says people should go and protest at xx, he knows he'll get the extremists there as well as the more respectable protesters.
		
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I still donâ€™t understand what McDonnell has to do with that video! How many politicians are on the remain side? Yet you go on McDonnell and what heâ€™s said previously.
Exactly who politicised that video?

As I posted previously, that video is a disgrace regardless of how anyone voted in the referendum or what their political persuasion is.

But no worries, once again me asking a question is seen as defending Labour, one final question, Iâ€™ll make a Â£50.00 donation to H4H if you can show were Iâ€™ve defended Labour or McDonnell tonight.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What has McDonnell done recently ( obviously not his history which is a disgrace in regards his links to IRA ) ?
		
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He publicly stated people should bring chaos to the streets in protest against the PM.
Heâ€™s a scum bag who Labour need rid of.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What has McDonnell done recently ( obviously not his history which is a disgrace in regards his links to IRA ) ?
		
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Gave an interview recently were he was asking for mass public disorder meetings in London I seem to remember.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			He publicly stated people should bring chaos to the streets in protest against the PM.
Heâ€™s a scum bag who Labour need rid of.
		
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Old Skier said:



			Gave an interview recently were he was asking for mass public disorder meetings in London I seem to remember.
		
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Just about sums him up - the man has always been a disgrace and just adds to the joke that is the Labour leadership and shadow cabinet - spouting that sort of rubbish should come with a punishment


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just about sums him up - the man has always been a disgrace and just adds to the joke that is the Labour leadership and shadow cabinet - spouting that sort of rubbish should come with a punishment
		
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He would then complain that there aren't enough brave policemen to deal with the riots


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## Hitdaball (Sep 17, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			There seem to be the odd poster with double standards of here. Not a word of condemnation against the stereotype image of leavers by the leader of the Lib Dems and her N Devon candidate. Statements that they have been making unfortunately bring out the worst in people and although nobody can condone the idiots in the video it's easy to understand why people get a tad upset.

It's unfortunate that there are some small minded people that can't see it's a minority and most leavers like remainers are normal.
		
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Itâ€™s easy to understand people making nazi salutes and shouting left wing scum at the judiciary? What a load of horse shit mate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 18, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			The cynic in me wonders if they really are Brexit supporters.... Would you put it past the remainers to plant these people?  I wouldn't.
		
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 Jings, heard it all now. Deary me.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 18, 2019)

Interesting level of support for Jo Swinson on the Metro letters page this morning. Apparently if the Limp Dims get in and cancel Brexit, that will be democracy because the people voted them in. 

I love the way that these people can completely ignore my the results of democratic votes that donâ€™t go their way in favour of those that do. 

Whatâ€™s more worrying is the fact that none of them appear to be able to see past Swinson using the current situation to her advantage by making this offer. We know little or nothing else of what else they propose but on the basis of one issue they are doing quite well.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 18, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Interesting level of support for Jo Swinson on the Metro letters page this morning. Apparently if the Limp Dims get in and cancel Brexit, that will be democracy because the people voted them in. 

I love the way that these people can completely ignore my the results of democratic votes that donâ€™t go their way in favour of those that do. 

Whatâ€™s more worrying is the fact that none of them appear to be able to see past Swinson using the current situation to her advantage by making this offer. We know little or nothing else of what else they propose but on the basis of one issue they are doing quite well.
		
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As a leaver and Conservative member for the remainder of this year. 
I agree that it would be democracy if she got in as PM. If brexit doesnâ€™t happen on the 31st then the general election will certainly be a second referendum in disguise. 
Boris needs to rethink about joining forces with Sir Nigel Farage.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			As a leaver and Conservative member for the remainder of this year.
I agree that it would be democracy if she got in as PM. If brexit doesnâ€™t happen on the 31st then the general election will certainly be a second referendum in disguise.
Boris needs to rethink about joining forces with *Sir Nigel Farage*.
		
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Think you got that wrong - nothing noble about that guy


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## adam6177 (Sep 18, 2019)

Just been browsing the BeeB business articles.

1.  Inflation down
2.  Wage growth up
3.  Unemployment down 
4.  House prices holding firm

Despite brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Think you got that wrong - nothing noble about that guy
		
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Think you got that wrong, Lords are Noble, not knights.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 18, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Just been browsing the BeeB business articles.

1.  Inflation down
2.  Wage growth up
3.  Unemployment down
4.  House prices holding firm

Despite brexit.
		
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Is the sky stll up there.


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## stefanovic (Sep 18, 2019)

Forgive me, but I'd like to know what progress since 2016 has been made on Brexit?
Please update me.


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## Beezerk (Sep 18, 2019)

stefanovic said:



			Forgive me, but I'd like to know what progress since 2016 has been made on Brexit?
Please update me.
		
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Laws passed so it's legal, then 600 odd tossers have acted like big kids for the last three years so we're kinda at a stalemate.


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## jp5 (Sep 18, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Just been browsing the BeeB business articles.

1.  Inflation down
2.  Wage growth up
3.  Unemployment down
4.  House prices holding firm

Despite brexit.
		
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All as a member of the EU


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Think you got that wrong, Lords are Noble, not knights.
		
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OK then - there is plenty benighted about him (and that's not how you spell knight)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2019)

Thought Macron and the French were going to block any extension - maybe they still will.  Typical French - can't trust 'em.

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/...te-to-approve-brexit-delay-if-uk-requests-one
https://www.businessinsider.com/lea...rant-uk-new-brexit-extension-2019-9?r=US&IR=T 

_European Parliament lawmakers on Wednesday (Sept 18) voted overwhelmingly in favour of another Brexit delay if Britain requests one and certain conditions are met, after European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker told the chamber that a no-deal scenario remains "very real"._


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## SocketRocket (Sep 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK then - there is plenty benighted about him *(and that's not how you spell knight)*

Click to expand...

Er, What!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2019)

Interesting - at least one of the Supreme Court judges is clearly harbouring concerns over the precedent that will be set when they rule in favour of the government.  Wonder if they'll set out clearly the line that must not be crossed in respect of their judgement and that they consider the government to have not crossed here - in the event that a government tries this again.


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## Hobbit (Sep 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting - at least one of the Supreme Court judges is clearly harbouring concerns over the precedent that will be set when they rule in favour of the government.  Wonder if they'll set out clearly the line that must not be crossed in respect of their judgement and that they consider the government to have not crossed here - in the event that a government tries this again.
		
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Been following it, and seen some very interesting and searching question but didn't really pick up any concerns. Thought the point made by one of the judges about who can recall Parliament if the MP's can't was pointed, i.e. who has supremacy if Parliament isn't sitting. And added a question about is it right that the Queen gets dragged into should she shouldn't she, and should that authority sit with a court when Parliament is prorogued?


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## adam6177 (Sep 18, 2019)

Yesterday I was ridiculed for considering that the people hurling racial abuse in that Twitter video might have been plants.

Then onto today... You may have seen in the news about the dad who confronted Boris about the state of the nhs (quite correctly I may add)..... Well it turns out that the dad is an anti Brexit labour activist who has been pictured with John McDonnell (again discussed yesterday).  Pure coincidence?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 18, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Yesterday I was ridiculed for considering that the people hurling racial abuse in that Twitter video might have been plants.

Then onto today... You may have seen in the news about the dad who confronted Boris about the state of the nhs (quite correctly I may add)..... Well it turns out that the dad is an anti Brexit labour activist who has been pictured with John McDonnell (again discussed yesterday).  Pure coincidence?
		
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I seen your post and it did make me think!!
Has it got to such a low standard as that == nobody knows is the correct answer.

But thatâ€™s what China has been doing in Hong Kong 
Have we got that low .


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## chrisd (Sep 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			President Jean-Claude Juncker told the chamber that a no-deal scenario remains "very real".[/I]
		
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Best news I've read this week ðŸ˜Š


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 18, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Best news I've read this week ðŸ˜Š
		
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Pity he isnâ€™t a Liberal Democrat. 
Or is he ?


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## chrisd (Sep 18, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Pity he isnâ€™t a Liberal Democrat. 
Or is he ?
		
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If I posted what I think Juncker is I'd probably get an infraction  ðŸ˜£


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## Hobbit (Sep 18, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Yesterday I was ridiculed for considering that the people hurling racial abuse in that Twitter video might have been plants.

Then onto today... You may have seen in the news about the dad who confronted Boris about the state of the nhs (quite correctly I may add)..... Well it turns out that the dad is an anti Brexit labour activist who has been pictured with John McDonnell (again discussed yesterday).  Pure coincidence?
		
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And dad with a 7 year old daughter that was admitted the night before. 

Whatever his political affiliations are I don't think he's a plant. And under those circumstances why can't he vent?

However, if you do a search on meetings disrupted by political activists you'll find plenty of evidence. Also, I think the Beeb have taken a few bruises about the audiences for Question Time.


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## adam6177 (Sep 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And dad with a 7 year old daughter that was admitted the night before.

Whatever his political affiliations are I don't think he's a plant. And under those circumstances why can't he vent?
.
		
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he IS a plant.... I saw the story and again it made me question if there was anything below board about the chances of having a 1-1 audience with the pm.

What the man is going through with his child is horrendous and you're 100% right he does have the right to vent. 

My mum was a geriatric nurse for over 40 years, so it's a subject close to my heart based on her experiences.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 18, 2019)

Lib Dums again 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174391254840303619


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## spongebob59 (Sep 18, 2019)

So its no deal then 

Guy Verhofstadt

@guyverhofstadt
 Â· 10h
The @Europarl_EN will never accept the UK can have all the advantage of free trade, and not aligning with our ecological, health & social standards. We are not stupid! We will not kill our own companies, economy, single market. We will never accept â€˜Singapore by the North Seaâ€™!


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## adam6177 (Sep 18, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So its no deal then

Guy Verhofstadt

@guyverhofstadt
Â· 10h
The @Europarl_EN will never accept the UK can have all the advantage of free trade, and not aligning with our ecological, health & social standards. We are not stupid! We will not kill our own companies, economy, single market. We will never accept â€˜Singapore by the North Seaâ€™!
		
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That's absolute gold, what an incredible audacity these people have. ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜†


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## PieMan (Sep 18, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			That's absolute gold, what an incredible audacity these people have. ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜†
		
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To be fair there were a number of very good interventions this morning in the EP, and an awful lot of bad ones too, but only Verhofstadt - from the ones I saw - kept mentioning the importance and strength of "the European project".

And by that at least he is on record for "more Europe" so increased federalism, increased membership, and more transfer of power from national parliament's to Brussels.

Having first hand experience for over 20 years dealing with the Commission, other Member States and the Parliament, the sooner we're out the better. And if that's with no deal then fine with me.

As one of my colleagues from another Member State said to me"Well the UK has never been seen as truly European. But we need your money"!


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## Old Skier (Sep 18, 2019)

I wonder if Jo Swinson remembers the year she was insisting on a vote to leave the EU.


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## Dando (Sep 18, 2019)

PieMan said:



			To be fair there were a number of very good interventions this morning in the EP, and an awful lot of bad ones too, but only Verhofstadt - from the ones I saw - kept mentioning the importance and strength of "the European project".

And by that at least he is on record for "more Europe" so increased federalism, increased membership, and more transfer of power from national parliament's to Brussels.

Having first hand experience for over 20 years dealing with the Commission, other Member States and the Parliament, the sooner we're out the better. And if that's with no deal then fine with me.

As one of my colleagues from another Member State said to me"Well the UK has never been seen as truly European. But we need your money"!
		
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Iâ€™m sure the usual culprits will be along soon to say youâ€™re wrong and your EU colleagues were lying


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## Hobbit (Sep 18, 2019)

According to the local English speaking newspaper here in Southern Spain the Finnish PM, currently the President of the EU, has said the UK has 12 days to put forward proposals or talks cancelled... see below.

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2019...bkR1joR5qJvf33cWhfyCvml3mGDmgmvU0VdylF5PmHfc0


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## SocketRocket (Sep 18, 2019)




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## jp5 (Sep 18, 2019)

good suggestion for the public to be able to tell parliament what type of Brexit they want!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 18, 2019)

jp5 said:



			good suggestion for the public to be able to tell parliament what type of Brexit they want!
		
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They already did. Leave the EU, Its not a difficult concept to understand.


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## jp5 (Sep 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			They already did. Leave the EU, Its not a difficult concept to understand.
		
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Yes, and do what instead? EEA membership perhaps, such as was being advocated by Leavers before the referendum?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			According to the local English speaking newspaper here in Southern Spain the Finnish PM, currently the President of the EU, has said the UK has 12 days to put forward proposals or talks cancelled... see below.

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2019...bkR1joR5qJvf33cWhfyCvml3mGDmgmvU0VdylF5PmHfc0

Click to expand...

Now on the UK media as well.
Brexit: UK has 12 days to set out plans - Finnish PM https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49749465


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## IanM (Sep 19, 2019)

So what's new?

May in conjunction with the EU can up with a plan no one would like.
MPs remove our bargaining position (to ensure we stay in)
EU says need a new plan.... not that they will agree to anything other than us continuing to pay our subs.  
Boris has no majority in HoC to do anything about it.

Expect Ref 2 in the New Year,   And after 4 years of intensive media propaganda and wiful pretence that leaving isnt do-able, a 3 question Referendum to ensure Leave loses will go the way of the EU.   And we'll be told how lucky we are.

Shortly followed by the loss of our veto, Sterling and becoming liable for the bailout of Euro Zone Debt.   But you were warned.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 19, 2019)

"It was said we will probably find a solution in two years. But we could also find one in the next 30 days, why not?"

Mr Johnson replied: "You rightly say the onus is on us to produce those solutions, those ideas [...] and that is what we want to do.

"You have set a very blistering timetable of 30 days - if I understood you correctly, I am more than happy with that," he added.

30 days is up tomorrow.

Merkel said it wasn't fixed - but her thinking was that if Johnson had firm ideas of the solution then he should have them by tomorrow - and he seemed to agree.  Well maybe they have been presented - though not yet written down so we can't have confirmation one or another - just have to take Johnson's word for it - LOL.


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## Hobbit (Sep 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			"It was said we will probably find a solution in two years. But we could also find one in the next 30 days, why not?"

Mr Johnson replied: "You rightly say the onus is on us to produce those solutions, those ideas [...] and that is what we want to do.

"You have set a very blistering timetable of 30 days - if I understood you correctly, I am more than happy with that," he added.

30 days is up tomorrow.

Merkel said it wasn't fixed - but her thinking was that if Johnson had firm ideas of the solution then he should have them by tomorrow - and he seemed to agree.  Well maybe they have been presented - though not yet written down so we can't have confirmation one or another - just have to take Johnson's word for it - LOL.
		
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And you can read Merkel's mind? You know what she's thinking?

We're back to you providing everyone with the lottery numbers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And you can read Merkel's mind? You know what she's thinking?

We're back to you providing everyone with the lottery numbers.
		
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Well what was the 30days about if it wasn't a timescale that Merkel thought reasonable - and that Johnson agreed was.

In any case - latest Camp Johnson utterances are that the EU won't see anything written down until about the 2nd October - after the Tory Party Conference - and that the EU have to be flexible in the talks.  UK can keep May's Red Lines but EU has to be flexible.  Ah well.  EU thought they had done the flexible bit in agreeing to the UK preference for the backstop.  The backstop that DRabb now refers to as the anti-democratic backstop.  Wonder why he does that.  Wormtongue DomCum I suspect.

Anyway - I look forward to reading our backstop proposals - those that can be implemented immediately on 1st Nov.


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## Hobbit (Sep 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well what was the 30days about if it wasn't a timescale that Merkel thought reasonable - and that Johnson agreed was.
		
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So she _thought  _Johnson had firm ideas. So you know she was thinking what Johnson was thinking....

Don't get me wrong Hugh, what I'm trying to get at is what is fact and what is an assumption. I'm not trying to trip you up, only show that guessing is what helps make this mess worse. Lots of people thought there was a Â£350m money tree for the NHS. There's an element of truth in there, just as no doubt there's an element of truth in Merkel's thoughts, but getting it just a little bit wrong can lead to bigger problems.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			So she _thought  _Johnson had firm ideas. So you know she was thinking what Johnson was thinking....

Don't get me wrong Hugh, what I'm trying to get at is what is fact and what is an assumption. I'm not trying to trip you up, only show that guessing is what helps make this mess worse. Lots of people thought there was a Â£350m money tree for the NHS. There's an element of truth in there, just as no doubt there's an element of truth in Merkel's thoughts, but getting it just a little bit wrong can lead to bigger problems.
		
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OK - I get that - np.  The fact is that Johnson agreed that 30days was an appropriate rough timescale for him coming up with a solution that he could present to the EU. 

The EU are saying they don't have one on the table - and that is true, as the UK have said we will not leave anything written down with the EU (because we don't trust the EU not to leak).  And so by leak or directly from the government we do not have any detail whatsoever about the solution they will be presenting to the EU on the 2nd and so we must trust that there is a worked solution that can be implemented on 1st Nov.


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## IanM (Sep 19, 2019)

The Â£350m is the funniest thing.

Week one of school economics lesson.   If you don't buy that Mars Bar, you can buy something else instead.  Your choice.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 19, 2019)

IanM said:



			The Â£350m is the funniest thing.

Week one of school economics lesson.   If you don't buy that Mars Bar, you can buy something else instead.  Your choice.
		
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Week Two.  Don't commit to buying anything in the expectation of monies to come.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - I get that - np.  The fact is that Johnson agreed that 30days was an appropriate rough timescale for him coming up with a solution that he could present to the EU.

The EU are saying they don't have one on the table - and that is true, as the UK have said we will not leave anything written down with the EU (because we don't trust the EU not to leak).  And so by leak or directly from the government we do not have any detail whatsoever about the solution they will be presenting to the EU on the 2nd and so we must trust that there is a worked solution that can be implemented on 1st Nov.
		
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And so today we submit in confidence 'technical solutions' but no formal proposals.  Well I suppose that's a start.  Wonder what these technical solutions are - solutions that perhaps weren't possible for Day #1 when May was negotiating - and solutions that we cannot know about.  Just wondering why that might be.  Not as if one month will make that much difference to the smuggling 'baddies' intent on circumventing them.  But anyway.  He got something to the EU within the 30days - so he can't be held to account for failing completely on the 30day thing - as no doubt he would have been.


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## drdel (Sep 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well what was the 30days about if it wasn't a timescale that Merkel thought reasonable - and that Johnson agreed was.

In any case - latest Camp Johnson utterances are that the EU won't see anything written down until about the 2nd October - after the Tory Party Conference - and that the EU have to be flexible in the talks.  UK can keep May's Red Lines but EU has to be flexible.  Ah well.  EU thought they had done the flexible bit in agreeing to the UK preference for the backstop.  The backstop that DRabb now refers to as the anti-democratic backstop.  Wonder why he does that.  Wormtongue DomCum I suspect.

Anyway - I look forward to reading our backstop proposals - those that can be implemented immediately on 1st Nov.
		
Click to expand...

The evidence is they can't be trusted = childish Tweets and social media games from self serving politicians. No one in their right mind would release details of sensitive negotiations to the public domain. Its quite normal for documents to be collected at the end of sensitive meetings and/or meetings to continue until a formal agreed result is agreed to maintain security and confidentiality.

There has been leaks on both sides: in my view, this poor statesmanship has significantly contributed to the lack of progress.


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## adam6177 (Sep 19, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49753210 

An interesting read on the EUs deal with South America and it being blocked by Austria, with others potentially in the wings.

20 years to agree a deal that is then rejected.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Week Two.  Don't commit to buying anything in the expectation of monies to come.
		
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Week three never join a club you canâ€™t leave.


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## ger147 (Sep 19, 2019)

Have the docs been leaked yet? Shouldn't be long till the details start to appear in the press...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 19, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Have the docs been leaked yet? Shouldn't be long till the details start to appear in the press...
		
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And of course this is not negotiation - as that doesn't start until the EU drops the backstop.  Well that's what I thought BJohnson and DRabb et al were saying.  This is just sharing of ideas...hope they are good ones.  In Boris I Trust.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 19, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Week three never join a club you canâ€™t leave.
		
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Week four - when you join a club and make financial commitments in respect of your membership - best be prepared to pay what you owe when you decide to leave - and don't expect any membership benefits after you have left.


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## Dando (Sep 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Week four - when you join a club and make financial commitments in respect of your membership - best be prepared to pay what you owe when you decide to leave - and don't expect any membership benefits after you have left.
		
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every week - when the majority of people who could be bothered to vote have decided to leave the club expect some to do nothing but whinge and whine about the result and post the same crap over and over again as they don't agree with the result


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so today we submit in confidence 'technical solutions' but no formal proposals.  Well I suppose that's a start.  Wonder what these technical solutions are - *solutions that perhaps weren't possible for Day #1 when May was negotiating* - and solutions that we cannot know about.  Just wondering why that might be.  Not as if one month will make that much difference to the smuggling 'baddies' intent on circumventing them.  But anyway.  He got something to the EU within the 30days - so he can't be held to account for failing completely on the 30day thing - as no doubt he would have been.
		
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But May was negotiating to stay in, not get out, so they were of no interest to her.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Week four - when you join a club and make financial commitments in respect of your membership - best be prepared to pay what you owe when you decide to leave - and don't expect any membership benefits after you have left.
		
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I refer you to week two!
If the club wonâ€™t let you leave .
What about all the buildings etc that we financed can we sell our share in them.

And week four yes please.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 19, 2019)

Watched the Cameron years .
The most telling quote came from Nicholas Sarkosy who said â€œwe should have given Britain a bit more in the negotiations â€œ before the referendum was called they bluffed and lost.
It was really poor of the EU to just give Cameron two fingers and that has proven right.
But hindsight is a great thing ,but great leaders shouldnâ€™t need it.!
They will never change from within and anyone who thinks they will is delusional. Imo.


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## Hobbit (Sep 19, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Watched the Cameron years .
The most telling quote came from Nicholas Sarkosy who said â€œwe should have given Britain a bit more in the negotiations â€œ before the referendum was called they bluffed and lost.
It was really poor of the EU to just give Cameron two fingers and that has proven right.
But hindsight is a great thing ,but great leaders shouldnâ€™t need it.!
They will never change from within and anyone who thinks they will is delusional. Imo.
		
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I purposely didn't watch it. I find I'm exceptionally cynical of the whole timing of his autobiography and the airtime its getting. Talk about the elite looking after themselves! A Beeb doc to coincide with the release of his book. Its a blatant marketing exercise.

I never thought I'd see the day that I'd be so disgusted with the Beeb.


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## Old Skier (Sep 19, 2019)

N Devon Limp Dem candidate for the next election has been forced to resign over her comments on the Brexit voters of N Devon.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 19, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			N Devon Limp Dem candidate for the next election has been forced to resign over her comments on the Brexit voters of N Devon.
		
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What did she say?


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 19, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			What did she say?
		
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#13,295.  You can listen to her.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I purposely didn't watch it. I find I'm exceptionally cynical of the whole timing of his autobiography and the airtime its getting. Talk about the elite looking after themselves! A Beeb doc to coincide with the release of his book. Its a blatant marketing exercise.

I never thought I'd see the day that I'd be so disgusted with the Beeb.
		
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If the BBC didnâ€™t at least acknowledge the book they would be criticised.
ITV got in first though with Tom Brady.
Very cynical I agree.

The main theme was itâ€™s everybody elseâ€™s fault .
But he did take his share of the blame , a first for an ex premier.
One thing it really shows is the split in the Toryâ€™s.

But showed to me how poor the EU are , they could have nip all this in the bud by giving him some sort of concessions to ward off a referendum.
But they never had the vision to see the mess itâ€™s caused.
And just reinforce the view that you canâ€™t change them from within .


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 20, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			What did she say?
		
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He was so desperate about the outcome of the 2014 Indyref he persuaded The Queen to intervein.
Madge not amused, she said that is twice he has embarrassed her now so  'nae Privy Council and knighthood for you sunshine'.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He was so desperate about the outcome of the 2014 Indyref he persuaded The Queen to intervein.
Madge not amused, she said that is twice he has embarrassed her now so  'nae Privy Council and knighthood for you sunshine'.
		
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Question was about N Devon Lib Dem candidate not Queenie.


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## robinthehood (Sep 20, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Question was about N Devon Lib Dem candidate not Queenie.
		
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Just Google it.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			#13,295.  You can listen to her.
		
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robinthehood said:



			Just Google it.
		
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Don't need to. It's already been posted on this thread as per BiM's post above. My response was to Doon who seemed to think the question was about what the Queen had said not the Lib Dem.


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## drdel (Sep 20, 2019)

Much is written about who said what to the Queen these days and it has now been claimed in the Supreme Court that the PM misled HM.

Surely HM could issue (or be asked) to provide an in-confidence note as to whether she felt misled or not - it a matter of fact not partisan.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Much is written about who said what to the Queen these days and it has now been claimed in the Supreme Court that the PM misled HM.

Surely HM could issue (or be asked) to provide an in-confidence note as to whether she felt misled or not - it a matter of fact not partisan.
		
Click to expand...

Alternatively, and so keeping Madge out of it,  Johnson could have submitted a signed affidavit stating that the sole rationale for the prorogation was as he and his buddies are claiming about the Queens Speech and nothing at all to do with Brexit.  Easy Peasy.  Why has he not done that?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 20, 2019)

Spoiler alert: substance of what 
@JunckerEU
 said last night in Sky interview was NOT new (will explain below). Irish backstop remains main sticking point in renegotiations. EU, UK positions remain far apart ALTHOUGH EU keen to avoid another Brexit extension find a deal asap /1 1)Juncker said we want a deal: we know that 2)Juncker said EU is ready to replace the backstop: He said this on Weds at the European parliament. The EU has said this to Boris Johnson since he became PM. The Withdrawal Agreement itself has provisions for replacing the backstop /2 3) Juncker said a deal is possible by 31 Oct: EU has said that before too with the qualification that UK must come up with â€œrealistic, legally operable solutions on how to replace the backstopâ€. EU doesnt view UK current position ticking that box /3 
4) 
@JunckerEU
 said UK governments ideas are â€œbasisâ€ for agreement on the backstop but that â€“and this is key-â€œthe replacement must be as robust as the current backstopâ€. EU encouraged by no10's proposal of NI aligning with EU regulations on agrifoods but what about the rest? /4 The 3 UK "non-papers" (ie informal documents) handed to EU on all-Ireland agrizone, customs and manufacturing described to me as upsum of last 2 weeks of talks with UK envoy to EU David Frost. Described to me in EU as 'more piecemeal + aspirational than concrete + realistic' /5 
Main goals of backstop for EU: Protect NIreland peace process+ protect single market. On 
@BBCr4today
 Deputy Irish PM Coveney said UK suggestion to have customs checks away from border still interrupts all-Ireland economy and North-South co-o protected in Good Friday Agreement /6 Frustration in EU too at Brexit Secretary Barclay suggestion yesterday (remember the Malthouse Compromise floated during Theresa Mayâ€™s time and rejected by the EU?) that a Brexit deal minus backstop be signed now and backstop replacement sorted out after, during transition /7 To EU this is Johnson government saying â€œtrust usâ€ . My EU sources donâ€™t trust. Thereâ€™s a fear if backstop replacement discussed AFTER Brexit, the UK would use N Ireland as bargaining chip in future trade negotiations (to cherry pick access to single market etc) /8 UK papers also donâ€™t adequately protect single market in EU eyes. All-Ireland agrizone = 30% of trade only (though most trade volume) +thereâ€™s no talk of governance: ECJ or UK law? Level playing field? EU thinks current proposals could give unfair competitive advantage to UK /9 Big difference (again) in EU/UK approach. EU based on rules and principles within which thereâ€™s wiggle room. Uk wants to start from scratch bottom up. One EU diplomat â€œThereâ€™s a huge difference between working 5mm within the perimeter fence and 5mm on the outsideâ€ /10 CONCLUSION: EU keen to find a deal. No one wants another leading-nowhere Brexit extension if possible. EU sources say theyâ€™re ready to look again at (ie find compromise on) current backstop but donâ€™t accept binning it unless more watertight UK alternative on table than now /11


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## SocketRocket (Sep 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Alternatively, and so keeping Madge out of it,  Johnson could have submitted a signed affidavit stating that the sole rationale for the prorogation was as he and his buddies are claiming about the Queens Speech and nothing at all to do with Brexit.  Easy Peasy.  Why has he not done that?
		
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Why should he, his use of prorogatory powers dont need him to swear affidavits. Are you suggesting that if these powers that can be used for much more than suspending parliament are used they should be proceeded by the PM swearing an oath that he is acting honestly. really!  Where would that end. every time a minister made a statement of policy they would have to do it
This is just getting ridiculous.


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## Slime (Sep 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why should he, his use of prorogatory powers dont need him to swear affidavits. Are you suggesting that if these powers that can be used for much more than suspending parliamemt are used they should be proceeded by the PM swearing an oath that he is acting honestly. really!  Where would that end. every time a minister made a statement of policy they would have to do it
*This is just getting ridiculous.*

Click to expand...

Totally agree.
In fact, it started getting ridiculous about 13,000 posts ago!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why should he, his use of prorogatory powers dont need him to swear affidavits. Are you suggesting that if these powers that can be used for much more than suspending parliamemt are used they should be proceeded by the PM swearing an oath that he is acting honestly. really!  Where would that end. every time a minister made a statement of policy they would have to do it
This is just getting ridiculous.
		
Click to expand...

I'm simply responding to @drdel's suggestion...I quote...

_Surely HM could issue (or be asked) to provide an in-confidence note as to whether she felt misled or not - it a matter of fact not partisan._

This is an extraordinary situation - a decision of the Prime Minister is being examined in the Supreme Court, and - yes - in this very important instance the PMs word is very much in doubt - his honesty is being questioned - and not for the first time given that some say that he has 'dishonesty-form'.

The simplest way to do what we as kids would do when accused by a parent of something - _Cross my heart, hope to die, right hand up to God - _is for Johnson to simply make a sworn statement on the rationale behind the prorogation.  If he is the honest chap we know he is, and what he says is true - he would have no qualms in doing that.  That he doesn't points to his guilt. 

Johnson has brought all of this on himself. 

No need to do as @drdel suggests and involve madge.


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## Hobbit (Sep 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm simply responding to @drdel's suggestion...I quote...

_Surely HM could issue (or be asked) to provide an in-confidence note as to whether she felt misled or not - it a matter of fact not partisan._

This is an extraordinary situation - a decision of the Prime Minister is being examined in the Supreme Court, and - yes - in this very important instance the PMs word is very much in doubt - his honesty is being questioned - and not for the first time given that some say that he has 'dishonesty-form'.

The simplest way to do what we as kids would do when accused by a parent of something - _Cross my heart, hope to die, right hand up to God - _is for Johnson to simply make a sworn statement on the rationale behind the prorogation.  If he is the honest chap we know he is, and what he says is true - he would have no qualms in doing that.  That he doesn't points to his guilt.

Johnson has brought all of this on himself.

No need to do as @drdel suggests and involve madge.
		
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I guess its a little bit more complex than that otherwise Johnsn could have been called in first thing on Monday. "Yes, I prorogued Parliament to allow a new Queen's speech and to set out a new session of Parliament."

Everyone would have been home by lunchtime.

Imagine the outcry if that had been the case. Imagine Gina Millar giving interviews about her not having her day in court. Nice idea but everyone would have kicked off big style, and there would have been cries of, "fix, fix." 

And hasn't the govt's own solicitor already given the court the reason for proroguing?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Spoiler alert: substance of what
@JunckerEU
said last night in Sky interview was NOT new (will explain below). Irish backstop remains main sticking point in renegotiations. EU, UK positions remain far apart ALTHOUGH EU keen to avoid another Brexit extension find a deal asap /1 1)Juncker said we want a deal: we know that 2)Juncker said EU is ready to replace the backstop: He said this on Weds at the European parliament. The EU has said this to Boris Johnson since he became PM. The Withdrawal Agreement itself has provisions for replacing the backstop /2 3) Juncker said a deal is possible by 31 Oct: EU has said that before too with the qualification that UK must come up with â€œrealistic, legally operable solutions on how to replace the backstopâ€. EU doesnt view UK current position ticking that box /3
4)
@JunckerEU
said UK governments ideas are â€œbasisâ€ for agreement on the backstop but that â€“and this is key-â€œthe replacement must be as robust as the current backstopâ€. EU encouraged by no10's proposal of NI aligning with EU regulations on agrifoods but what about the rest? /4 The 3 UK "non-papers" (ie informal documents) handed to EU on all-Ireland agrizone, customs and manufacturing described to me as upsum of last 2 weeks of talks with UK envoy to EU David Frost. Described to me in EU as 'more piecemeal + aspirational than concrete + realistic' /5
Main goals of backstop for EU: Protect NIreland peace process+ protect single market. On
@BBCr4today
Deputy Irish PM Coveney said UK suggestion to have customs checks away from border still interrupts all-Ireland economy and North-South co-o protected in Good Friday Agreement /6 Frustration in EU too at Brexit Secretary Barclay suggestion yesterday (remember the Malthouse Compromise floated during Theresa Mayâ€™s time and rejected by the EU?) that a Brexit deal minus backstop be signed now and backstop replacement sorted out after, during transition /7 To EU this is Johnson government saying â€œtrust usâ€ . My EU sources donâ€™t trust. Thereâ€™s a fear if backstop replacement discussed AFTER Brexit, the UK would use N Ireland as bargaining chip in future trade negotiations (to cherry pick access to single market etc) /8 UK papers also donâ€™t adequately protect single market in EU eyes. All-Ireland agrizone = 30% of trade only (though most trade volume) +thereâ€™s no talk of governance: ECJ or UK law? Level playing field? EU thinks current proposals could give unfair competitive advantage to UK /9 Big difference (again) in EU/UK approach. EU based on rules and principles within which thereâ€™s wiggle room. Uk wants to start from scratch bottom up. One EU diplomat â€œThereâ€™s a huge difference between working 5mm within the perimeter fence and 5mm on the outsideâ€ /10 CONCLUSION: EU keen to find a deal. No one wants another leading-nowhere Brexit extension if possible. EU sources say theyâ€™re ready to look again at (ie find compromise on) current backstop but donâ€™t accept binning it unless more watertight UK alternative on table than now /11
		
Click to expand...

I listened to Coveney this morning.  And I still just do not get why the backstop is such an issue if there are solutions in existence - suggested and promoted by some on this forum - that will solve the border issue - solutions that enable so many leave supporters to claim that the Border Issue is a confected issue - it is not real.  

If the solutions are *known *and already being used elsewhere, then two years should be plenty of time to scale them up and roll them out.  

And if a little more time were required to complete _*towards the end *_of the roll-out - then there should be no issue requesting a short extension and the EU agreeing to it.

Of course the way that such as DRaab talk about the 'non-democratic backstop' as if to suggest that it is going to coming into operation *as soon as we leave *- leads me to think that that is what they want the electorate to think - and so the backstop HAS to go before we leave.  It is disingenuous.

So for all those who promote the existence of *ready-made solutions to the border *- I would not even bother asking what they are - rather I'd ask for an estimate of timescales to roll them out?  Because leaving with a deal we'd have at least two years.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I guess its a little bit more complex than that otherwise Johnsn could have been called in first thing on Monday. "Yes, I prorogued Parliament to allow a new Queen's speech and to set out a new session of Parliament."

Everyone would have been home by lunchtime.

Imagine the outcry if that had been the case. Imagine Gina Millar giving interviews about her not having her day in court. Nice idea but everyone would have kicked off big style, and there would have been cries of, "fix, fix."

And hasn't the govt's own solicitor already given the court the reason for proroguing?
		
Click to expand...

Would he have had to swear 'truth and whole truth'?  Just sign a bleedin' affidavit stating the reasons for proroguing parliament.  Done.

But you are right - I think - in it's complexity.  What the Supreme Court is looking at is most likely much more subtle an issue than Johnson proroguing parliament for reasons political.  I think they are looking at the fact that parliament has been silenced and currently has no voice on a very significant matter for the country.


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## Hobbit (Sep 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I listened to Coveney this morning.  And I still just do not get why the backstop is such an issue if there are solutions in existence - suggested and promoted by some on this forum - that will solve the border issue - solutions that enable so many leave supporters to claim that the Border Issue is a confected issue - it is not real. 

If the solutions are *known *and already being used elsewhere, then two years should be plenty of time to scale them up and roll them out. 

And if a little more time were required to complete _*towards the end *_of the roll-out - then there should be no issue requesting a short extension and the EU agreeing to it.

Of course the way that such as DRaab talk about the 'non-democratic backstop' as if to suggest that it is going to coming into operation *as soon as we leave *- leads me to think that that is what they want the electorate to think - and so the backstop HAS to go before we leave.  It is disingenuous.

So for all those who promote the existence of *ready-made solutions to the border *- I would not even bother asking what they are - rather I'd ask for an estimate of timescales to roll them out?  Because leaving with a deal we'd have at least two years.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe its because the EU were saying there is nothing in existence that fits the NI/reland border. If the EU came out and said we accept the solutions already in place for Norway and Estonia would work in Ireland and that both sides are committed to installing them within 2 years I can't see why something couldn't be signed.

I firmly believe it is the EU that has been disingenuous about the border issue, using it to try and tie the UK in permanently, otherwise why haven't they acknowledged that the technology is already out there on EU borders.


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## Hobbit (Sep 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Would he have had to swear 'truth and whole truth'?  Just sign a bleedin' affidavit stating the reasons for proroguing parliament.  Done.

But you are right - I think - in it's complexity.  What the Supreme Court is looking at is most likely much more subtle an issue than Johnson proroguing parliament for reasons political.  I think they are looking at the fact that parliament has been silenced and currently has no voice on a very significant matter for the country.
		
Click to expand...

He doesn't have to swear to "tell the truth etc" because he's not witness. Its not that sort of trial.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 20, 2019)

So all the political twitter experts are predicting the ruling will go against the government, so with it being party conference for Labour and the Torys, will the other mps be recalled ?
Guess it'll be the only time the Lib dums amd the Krankies get to run the place


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## Beezerk (Sep 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is an extraordinary situation - a decision of the Prime Minister is being examined in the Supreme Court 




			Well yes, but over simplifying it quite a lot here. Is it not just another sideshow tactic by remainers to get Brexit cancelled?
Boris is a liar, yes maybe but the real root cause of this trial is being overlooked imo. Effectively Gina Miller is doing exactly what BJ allegedly did, lied about the reason for X happening.
		
Click to expand...



Click to expand...


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## Beezerk (Sep 20, 2019)

And I've managed to make a right mess of those quotes on my phone ðŸ¤£


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## SocketRocket (Sep 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Would he have had to swear 'truth and whole truth'?  Just sign a bleedin' affidavit stating the reasons for proroguing parliament.  Done.

But you are right - I think - in it's complexity.  What the Supreme Court is looking at is most likely much more subtle an issue than Johnson proroguing parliament for reasons political.  I think they are looking at the fact that parliament has been silenced and currently has no voice on a very significant matter for the country.
		
Click to expand...

But they do have a voice and have been agressively using it and still have time to say some more, come to think of it they had years to express their views.


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## chrisd (Sep 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But they do have a voice and have been agressively using it and still have time to say some more, come to think of it they had years to express their views.
		
Click to expand...

They didnt seem too keen to cancel their summer holidays to come to work ðŸ˜‰


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## adam6177 (Sep 20, 2019)

chrisd said:



			They didnt seem too keen to cancel their summer holidays to come to work ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

And let's be honest.... All they've used the last 3.5 years for is to scupper and prolong the process making it so much worse.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 20, 2019)

chrisd said:



			They didnt seem too keen to cancel their summer holidays to come to work ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

I can see the emoji mate, just hoping all those liking the post is because they get the joke.


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## Hobbit (Sep 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I can see the emoji mate, just hoping all those liking the post is because they get the joke. 

Click to expand...

With a wry smile...


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe its because the EU were saying there is nothing in existence that fits the NI/reland border. If the EU came out and said we accept the solutions already in place for Norway and Estonia would work in Ireland and that both sides are committed to installing them within 2 years I can't see why something couldn't be signed.

I firmly believe it is the EU that has been disingenuous about the border issue, using it to try and tie the UK in permanently, otherwise why haven't they acknowledged that the technology is already out there on EU borders.
		
Click to expand...

Yes and letâ€™s be honest here 
Itâ€™s their border as well as ours.
They have used this to muddy the waters.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 20, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			And I've managed to make a right mess of those quotes on my phone ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

Well letâ€™s hope the border is not run on phones like those bloody parking apps..


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## drdel (Sep 20, 2019)

So, true to form, the EU have leaked the PM documentation saying it falls short.

It's like kids at School!

Barnier states any new proposals must tick all the same boxes as the WA. An interesting take on flexibility.


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## Hobbit (Sep 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			So, true to form, the EU have leaked the PM documentation saying it falls short.

It's like kids at School!
		
Click to expand...

Putting pressure on. Not that childish really, just unprofessional. May suffered similarly. Time some people dropped their blinkers and realised the EU leaders are not saints.


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## drdel (Sep 20, 2019)

So far the 3 year old book by Varoufakis has predicted the EU actions pretty accurately


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## spongebob59 (Sep 20, 2019)

Breaking:

Jon Lansman attempted to remove post of Deputy Leader at NEC tonight, citing Tom Watson's 'disloyalty' over Brexit

Motion *passed* by 17 votes to 10 but needed a 2/3 majority

It will be discussed again tomorrow morning

Watson wasn't at NEC for childcare reasons


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## spongebob59 (Sep 20, 2019)

From Momentum source â€˜We just canâ€™t afford to go into an election with a deputy leader set on wrecking Labourâ€™s chances. Labour members overwhelmingly want a deputy leadership election, but our outdated rulebook wonâ€™t let it happen.â€™


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## spongebob59 (Sep 20, 2019)

Purge of the remainder ??


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## Old Skier (Sep 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Purge of the remainder ??
		
Click to expand...

Purge of anyone not a member or supporter of Momentum


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## spongebob59 (Sep 20, 2019)

So al l the remainers.

What a crock our parliament is at the moment


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## Hobbit (Sep 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Breaking:

Jon Lansman attempted to remove post of Deputy Leader at NEC tonight, citing Tom Watson's 'disloyalty' over Brexit

Motion *passed* by 17 votes to 10 but needed a 2/3 majority

It will be discussed again tomorrow morning

Watson wasn't at NEC for childcare reasons
		
Click to expand...

They didnâ€™t get their way so theyâ€™re going to rerun it tomorrow.

Sound familiar?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I can see the emoji mate, just hoping all those liking the post is because they get the joke. 

Click to expand...

I never, maybe you can explain.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I never, maybe you can explain.
		
Click to expand...

OK, Iâ€™ll play the game. 
They did try and itâ€™s only the Government that can actually recall Parliament.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...boris-johnson-recall-parliament-over-national


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## Hobbit (Sep 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			OK, Iâ€™ll play the game. 
They did try and itâ€™s only the Government that can actually recall Parliament.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...boris-johnson-recall-parliament-over-national

Click to expand...

But what about the other 500+? Only 17% signed the letter, not 51%.


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## Dando (Sep 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But what about the other 500+? Only 17% signed the letter, not 51%.
		
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But those who didnâ€™t sign it obviously agree just like those who didnâ€™t vote in the referendum wanted to remain ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


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## chrisd (Sep 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I never, maybe you can explain.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't intend it to be a joke


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But what about the other 500+? Only 17% signed the letter, not 51%.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing to do with any percentage Bri, Governments decision, even a minority one.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 20, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I didn't intend it to be a joke
		
Click to expand...

And hereâ€™s me giving you credit for a sense of humour.


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## chrisd (Sep 20, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And hereâ€™s me giving you credit for a sense of humour. 

Click to expand...

All the guys on here know that I've absolutely no sense of humour


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So all the political twitter experts are predicting the ruling will go against the government, so with it being party conference for Labour and the Torys, will the other mps be recalled ?
Guess it'll be the only time the Lib dums amd the Krankies get to run the place 

Click to expand...

Says a guy who's party leader has just lost every vote in parliament.
On that basis I am certain the opposition parties could not possibly do any worse.


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## Hobbit (Sep 20, 2019)

chrisd said:



			All the guys on here know that I've absolutely no sense of humour
		
Click to expand...

You can get a provisional one from Titleist.


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## chrisd (Sep 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You can get a provisional one from Titleist.
		
Click to expand...

I'm more of a Taylormade type Brian


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 21, 2019)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/accentuating-the-negative/comment-page-1/#comment-2488678

Not to be opened by Scardycats.
Jo Swinson expertly captured by Chris Cairns.


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## chrisd (Sep 21, 2019)

Seems my earlier criticism of a totally biased Brexit BBC is supported by the retiring John Humphrys ðŸ‘ðŸ‘
Shame some on here can't see it ðŸ¤”


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## robinthehood (Sep 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Seems my earlier criticism of a totally biased Brexit BBC is supported by the retiring John Humphrys ðŸ‘ðŸ‘
Shame some on here can't see it ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Biased about what? The referendum has been and gone. Whatever it is now is just reporters reporting.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 21, 2019)

If labour are having a clean up and alignment session it can only be a good thing.
All these MPâ€™s who donâ€™t agree with the party leader are not members of the party. 
The point being the majority faction should dictate the manifesto, it will make Corbynâ€™s life easier as a decision will be made for him, and he wonâ€™t be seen as the party killer. Boris is doing the same thing.

Looks like we will have an abundance of middle ground homeless MPâ€™s who wonâ€™t be financially supported by the main party.


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## chrisd (Sep 21, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Biased about what? .
		
Click to expand...

Maybe their anti Tory and Brexit bias ðŸ¤”


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## robinthehood (Sep 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Maybe their anti Tory and Brexit bias ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

But Boris is a dick, all reporting probably looks biased.
As for brexit , they have a duty with regards not influencing the referendum, but that was ages ago. If you don't like the bbc, visit some of the ultra pro brexit press instead.


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## chrisd (Sep 21, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			if you don't like the bbc, visit some of the ultra pro brexit press instead.
		
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Back to the old days eh Paddy .... always telling people what to do


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## Hitdaball (Sep 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Back to the old days eh Paddy .... always telling people what to do
		
Click to expand...

Outside of anything else why do you keep calling him Paddy @chrisd - is there a reason or is it just plain old trolling?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 21, 2019)

Good heavens. The Liberal Democrats wrote to Juncker asking him not to agree a change to the deal because that would make it harder to push for Remaining.

I didnâ€™t think I could still be shocked in this Brexit saga, but it turns out I was wrong.


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## chrisd (Sep 21, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Outside of anything else why do you keep calling him Paddy @chrisd - is there a reason or is it just plain old trolling?
		
Click to expand...

Typo I reckon ðŸ‘


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## Slime (Sep 21, 2019)

robinthehood said:



*Biased about what? *The referendum has been and gone. *Whatever it is now is just reporters reporting.*

Click to expand...





Sorry, just couldn't resist.
I'm sure you're not stupid ...................................... just blind to what others can see, even when it's right in front of you.
Maybe you should approach things with a less confrontational attitude.


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## Foxholer (Sep 21, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			And let's be honest.... All they've used the last 3.5 years for is to scupper and prolong the process making it so much worse.
		
Click to expand...

Well, some might see that as a success!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Maybe their anti Tory and Brexit bias ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Not sure theyâ€™re all anti tory.


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## chrisd (Sep 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not sure theyâ€™re all anti tory.
View attachment 28250

Click to expand...

Just read John Humphrys story in today's Mail


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Just read John Humphrys story in today's Mail
		
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The tory mail?

No issue over their perceived Brexit bias, but theyâ€™ve been accused by both Labour and tory of being against them.

Humphryâ€™s has also had his fair share of controversy, so not sure Iâ€™d take all he says as fact.


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## robinthehood (Sep 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Just read John Humphrys story in today's Mail
		
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Ah the bastion  of truth and honour . 

The daily mail 

Oof

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Just read John Humphrys story in today's Mail
		
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I just see the BBC report the news - simple as that , same with Sky , ITV etc - I guess people will call them bias when they report on something they donâ€™t agree with 

I donâ€™t watch question time etc so I donâ€™t know what this Bias against Brexit actually is


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## Foxholer (Sep 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Seems my earlier criticism of a *totally biased Brexit BBC* is supported by the retiring John Humphrys ðŸ‘ðŸ‘
Shame some on here can't see it ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Well, I for one don't see it that way! They may 'promote' more of the 'fringe' elements/views, thus the 'liberal' label (as opposed to s 'conservative' one) is appropriate, but it seems, to me, that it (at least attempts to) present a pretty middle ground view - criticising both Left and Right where it deems it should. Obviously, there will be more criticism of whoever is in power, as it's them who actually make the decisions and policies that affect the country. 

Did Humphtys actually call them 'totally biased'? If not, your assertion that he 'supports' it simply shows your own 'bias' - though there's nothing wrong with that!


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## Foxholer (Sep 21, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...
No issue over their perceived Brexit bias, but theyâ€™ve *been accused by both Labour and tory of being against them*.
...
		
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Isn't that a pretty good measure of walking the tightrope of 'fairness' pretty well?


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## chrisd (Sep 21, 2019)

Yes, the Mail was always going to be the ones to print his story but its his words and his views and he said that they are guilty of "institutional liberal bias" and that the BBC bosses "wallowed in despair " when Britain voted Leave. He also says "the logic seems to be that if they feel strongly about a given issue the BBC should not only listen to them but modify its output to reflect their own world view"


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## Hobbit (Sep 21, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I just see the BBC report the news - simple as that , same with Sky , ITV etc - I guess people will call them bias when they report on something they donâ€™t agree with

I donâ€™t watch question time etc so I donâ€™t know what this Bias against Brexit actually is
		
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I see the Beeb read the news, and then run editorials of the news. When a news piece moves from the news headline onto a comment of that news thats when it becomes an opinion of the news. And it is opinions that can show bias. I often switch off to the reader when they shift from reporting to commenting. @Phil, the next time you watch the news, watch out for the shift from reporting to commenting. It'll be something you've seen many times and have just accepted as the norm - but think on it, and listen for the comment. Then ask yourself does the comment use emotive language. It might even be something subjective like "heavy shelling." The use of heavy could be construed as emotive. Think, define "heavy." And that when the piece has a bias.

The bias might be as simple as emotive language, e.g. a "crash out Brexit." "Crash out" is emotive and infers negativity. Until proven otherwise, will Brexit be a crash out?

Ofcom completed an investigation in Feb of this year, saying the Beeb showed no bias, but by the end of March had reversed its findings. It raised concerns about time allocated to proponents of both sides of the argument, saying that Brexit supporters were more likely to be interrupted then Remain supporters, and were given less time to answer.

A YouGov poll at the same time concluded that 45% of Leave supporters were concerned about bias and, surprisingly, 13% of Remain supporters were also concerned about the negative reporting of Brexit.

One of the things with bias is if someone displays a bias that is inline with your own views you won't see a bias, you'll see an affirmation.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 21, 2019)

Be careful with the Mail, they drag up all kinds of rubbish.
The problem with the news where ever presented has now got opinions as opposed to delivering just facts 
Has anyone else noticed how all the itv news ten team mimic Pestonâ€™s Delivery?


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## Hitdaball (Sep 21, 2019)

Should it be a surprise that in a liberal democracy institutions could display a bias to liberalism?


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## chrisd (Sep 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Be careful with the Mail, they drag up all kinds of rubbish.
The problem with the news where ever presented has now got opinions as opposed to delivering just facts 
Has anyone else noticed how all the itv news ten team mimic Pestonâ€™s Delivery?
		
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My post specifically refers to the book written by John Humphrys after he left the BBC


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## Foxholer (Sep 21, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Be careful with the Mail, they drag up all kinds of rubbish.
The problem with the news where ever presented has now got opinions as opposed to delivering just facts
...
		
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Considering the origins of 'Newspapers' (Broadsheets spreading their owners opinions), it's hardly surprising!

The hypocrisy of The Mail knows no bounds - imo of course!


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## Old Skier (Sep 22, 2019)

When things get interesting I turn to Al Jazeera. Normal give it pretty straight. Trouble with news these days is it's on 24 hrs and there ain't enough news for it.

Problem with many of them is that they are script readers and cannot change the script even when they are told something completely different.  Yesterday Simon Coulder the travel journalist corrected the BBC on air when they stated that thousands of Thomas Cook holiday makers would be stranded, he informed them that in cases like this normally over 95% are repatriated on the normal day at the end of their holidays. Next bulletin "Thousands of tourist to be stranded". They want to make the story.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 22, 2019)

good luck with this


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## spongebob59 (Sep 22, 2019)




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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 22, 2019)

BiL feeling screwed by brexit. He teaches English as a foreign language and his contacts are telling him that jobs in EU are going to Irish teachers - and that language schools are not interested in taking on any brits given extra bit of hassle once uk out of eu.  Brit with extra cost and paperwork or Irish eu citizen without?

Donâ€™t know if it is true what he is being told - can imagine it might be - would eu-based schools be allowed to discriminate against brits in this way?

Anyone got any facts that tell me his contacts are mistaken and that brexit shouldnâ€™t make any difference to his employment prospects?


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## Hobbit (Sep 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BiL feeling screwed by brexit. He teaches English as a foreign language and his contacts are telling him that jobs in EU are going to Irish teachers - and that language schools are not interested in taking on any brits given extra bit of hassle once uk out of eu.  Brit with extra cost and paperwork or Irish eu citizen without?

Donâ€™t know if it is true what he is being told - can imagine it might be - would eu-based schools be allowed to discriminate against brits in this way?

Anyone got any facts that tell me his contacts are mistaken and that brexit shouldnâ€™t make any difference to his employment prospects?
		
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If Brexit happens, and the job he has is a contract job with a renewal date post-Brexit, the employer will incur extra costs to employ someone from a 3rd country. I took on a few from Oz, NZ and SA. Cost about Â£2k per person - no doubt more now.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BiL feeling screwed by brexit. He teaches English as a foreign language and his contacts are telling him that jobs in EU are going to Irish teachers - and that language schools are not interested in taking on any brits given extra bit of hassle once uk out of eu.  Brit with extra cost and paperwork or Irish eu citizen without?

Donâ€™t know if it is true what he is being told - can imagine it might be - would eu-based schools be allowed to discriminate against brits in this way?

Anyone got any facts that tell me his contacts are mistaken and that brexit shouldnâ€™t make any difference to his employment prospects?
		
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I heard we will be employing Canadians as French Teachers after Brexit.  Dont know if its true ðŸ¤¥


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## robinthehood (Sep 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BiL feeling screwed by brexit. He teaches English as a foreign language and his contacts are telling him that jobs in EU are going to Irish teachers - and that language schools are not interested in taking on any brits given extra bit of hassle once uk out of eu.  Brit with extra cost and paperwork or Irish eu citizen without?

Donâ€™t know if it is true what he is being told - can imagine it might be - would eu-based schools be allowed to discriminate against brits in this way?

Anyone got any facts that tell me his contacts are mistaken and that brexit shouldnâ€™t make any difference to his employment prospects?
		
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Not much help, but my friend is a TEFL teacher living in Poland and has recently become dual British and Irish for the reasons you mention.
I


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## Foxholer (Sep 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If Brexit happens, and the job he has is a contract job with a renewal date post-Brexit, the employer will incur extra costs to employ someone from a 3rd country. I took on a few from Oz, NZ and SA. Cost about Â£2k per person - no doubt more now.
		
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That sounds a bit weird! Was that because you 'sponsored' them into UK for the contract duration?
As a Kiwi with right to live and work in UK, there was never any additional costs for the IT contracts I had.

@SILH Would seem advisable for bro to find out what arrangements HE needs to have in order to continue his work in EU area. Perhaps through an EU based company, owned by bro,  that 'employs' him and takes responsibility for arranging paperwork - or equivalent. I'm sure there's EU based accountants who can sort that sort of thing out.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 22, 2019)

Sunday/Daily Mail reader complains about BBC bias...â€¦â€¦..heard it all now,

I see The Mail were going to post up the home address of one of the Johnson prorogue trial lawyers.
Nice people, probably hoping that one of their readers would give them another Jo Cox headline.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sunday/Daily Mail reader complains about BBC bias...â€¦â€¦..heard it all now,

I see The Mail were going to post up the home address of one of the Johnson prorogue trial lawyers.
Nice people, probably hoping that one of their readers would give them another Jo Cox headline.
		
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Unbelievable post ðŸ˜•


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## Hobbit (Sep 23, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That sounds a bit weird! Was that because you 'sponsored' them into UK for the contract duration?
As a Kiwi with right to live and work in UK, there was never any additional costs for the IT contracts I had.

@SILH Would seem advisable for bro to find out what arrangements HE needs to have in order to continue his work in EU area. Perhaps through an EU based company, owned by bro,  that 'employs' him and takes responsibility for arranging paperwork - or equivalent. I'm sure there's EU based accountants who can sort that sort of thing out.
		
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A Tier2 work visa for non-EU/EFTA = Â£575 and has a life of 3 years. Even if you give them a perm contract, the visa has to be renewed every 3 years. With additional costs, we used to budget for Â£2k per visa. We were licensed to sponsor Tier2 and Tier5 migrants.


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## Kellfire (Sep 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Unbelievable post ðŸ˜•
		
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Unbelievable yet probably true.


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## IanM (Sep 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sunday/Daily Mail reader complains about BBC bias...â€¦â€¦..heard it all now,

I see The Mail were going to post up the home address of one of the Johnson prorogue trial lawyers.
Nice people, probably hoping that one of their readers would give them another Jo Cox headline.
		
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No, it's only Labour thugs who pitch up outside restaurants and private homes and intimidate peoples' children......   


And did I hear that Labour won't formalise their Brexit Policy till after the Election?   What planet are they on?


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 23, 2019)

I'm struggling to understand how anyone within Labour can think this Brexit policy is a good idea. The very fact they are having to constantly explain it shows it is confused. This will damage them hugely at the ballot box if they run with this.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 23, 2019)

At the moment it's Jezza the red and the union's vs rest of the party b  y the sound of things.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			At the moment it's Jezza the red and the union's vs rest of the party b  y the sound of things.
		
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It has been that way since he got in. It has got worse as he has cemented his place, slowly or not so slowly pushing out all those who disagree with him. 

You currently have Boris expelling moderate Tories and Jezza & co edging out moderate Labour MP's. It is a real shame that Change UK did not take off. Where do moderate UK voters go? (please no one say Lib Dem )


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## harpo_72 (Sep 23, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It has been that way since he got in. It has got worse as he has cemented his place, slowly or not so slowly pushing out all those who disagree with him.

You currently have Boris expelling moderate Tories and Jezza & co edging out moderate Labour MP's. It is a real shame that Change UK did not take off. Where do moderate UK voters go? (please no one say Lib Dem )
		
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Itâ€™s a good thing, there has to be a middle ground and the extremes have to stand alone, they have tried to hide in the mainstream parties for years.

I can see the independent candidate being popular, but they are not financed and in the end what will their vote amount to in the house? 

Another party needs to arrive fast or it will be Lib Dem ... the best solution is the Tory party splits itâ€™s factions as does the Labour Party .. all those who want brexit join Farage and be done with it.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 23, 2019)

I think Jeremy has everything covered.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 23, 2019)

McDonnell promises 32 hour working week for same pay. Magic.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 23, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It has been that way since he got in. It has got worse as he has cemented his place, slowly or not so slowly pushing out all those who disagree with him.

You currently have Boris expelling moderate Tories and Jezza & co edging out moderate Labour MP's. It is a real shame that Change UK did not take off. Where do moderate UK voters go? (please no one say Lib Dem )
		
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SNP


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			SNP 

Click to expand...

*UK* voters 

Anyway, I said moderate voters


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 23, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm struggling to understand how anyone within Labour can think this Brexit policy is a good idea. The very fact they are having to constantly explain it shows it is confused. This will damage them hugely at the ballot box if they run with this.
		
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I am not so sure about that...â€¦.they could  be seen as the 'second referendum vote party '.
That could be popular now Swinson has ruled that out.

Scots proroguing law decision will be given tomorrow AM.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 23, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



*UK* voters 

Anyway, I said moderate voters 

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Have we been chucked out of the UK then, I didn't see that on the BBC news.
SNP is the most moderate party in the UK at the mo and has been for years.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Have we been chucked out of the UK then, I didn't see that on the BBC news.
SNP is the most moderate party in the UK at the mo and has been for years.
		
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Naughty, naughty. You don't cover the whole of the UK, same as Plaid, DUP etc.

As to the second part, that is not a high bar right now


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## User62651 (Sep 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am not so sure about that...â€¦.they could  be seen as the 'second referendum vote party '.
That could be popular now Swinson has ruled that out.

S*cots proroguing law decision will be given tomorrow AM*.
		
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10.30 tomorrow. Guardian have it that Govt will likely lose. https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/sep/22/supreme-court-verdict-boris-johnson-prorogation 
However it seems of little importance if the Govt can just prorogue again. Media will go into meltdown over BJ lying to HM but joe public won't give a stuff, we're all too conditioned to it, nothing is a surprise any more.
Wonder how Lizzie will take another visit so soon from Rees Mogg and accomplices up to Balmoral on political matters disturbing her holiday?


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## harpo_72 (Sep 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			10.30 tomorrow. Guardian have it that Govt will likely lose. https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/sep/22/supreme-court-verdict-boris-johnson-prorogation 
However it seems of little importance if the Govt can just prorogue again. Media will go into meltdown over BJ lying to HM but joe public won't give a stuff, we're all too conditioned to it, nothing is a surprise any more.
Wonder how Lizzie will take another visit so soon from Rees Mogg and accomplices up to Balmoral on political matters disturbing her holiday?

Click to expand...

I am sure the queen will enjoy listening to more lies


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## SocketRocket (Sep 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Have we been chucked out of the UK then, I didn't see that on the BBC news.
SNP is the most moderate party in the UK at the mo and has been for years.
		
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ðŸ¤¥


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## spongebob59 (Sep 23, 2019)

so Keir Starmer an ardent remaoner  now backs Jezza the Reds fence sitting

@Keir_Starmer
gets standing ovation for failing to take a view on whether Labour members should back
@jeremycorbyn
â€™s Brexit ambivalence or Remain in three votes now


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 23, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			10.30 tomorrow. Guardian have it that Govt will likely lose. https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/sep/22/supreme-court-verdict-boris-johnson-prorogation
However it seems of little importance if the Govt can just prorogue again. Media will go into meltdown over BJ lying to HM but joe public won't give a stuff, we're all too conditioned to it, nothing is a surprise any more.
Wonder how Lizzie will take another visit so soon from Rees Mogg and accomplices up to Balmoral on political matters disturbing her holiday?

Click to expand...

She will drop them off half way across a grouse moor and tell them to make their own way back [pointing in the direction of the guns.]
Or...â€¦.wait until the peasant shooting season starts.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 23, 2019)

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-23...-up-labours-brexit-vote-writes-robert-peston/


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## spongebob59 (Sep 23, 2019)

Corbyns democracy.

Peston.

Labour's leadership may have failed in the "drive by shooting" of Tom Watson (using his colourful words) but they have totally stitched up NEC and conference Brexit votes - by making sure their supporters were largely in the room, and keeping out those pesky..Remainers. None of this should come as a surprise. But it was still awe-inspiring to watch in action. The point is that for the past 24 hours, all the attention has been on which way the big unions would vote. And when Unison turned against Corbyn's Brexit neutrality..it looked as if the Remainers might just squeak a victory. But in the end the unions' position was irrelevant. Because the conference votes were done by a show of hands. And guess what? There just weren't many Remainers on the conference floor. I wonder how that happened? It's... . .a bit like how two crucial 8am NEC meetings were cancelled and requests for emailed submissions on the Brexit policy were made at around midnight on the prior evenings, making it almost impossible for Corbyn's critics to get their act together. For spectators like me - who... spent 15 years observing the tactics of China's leaders - all this is quite familiar and funny.  For passionate Labour Remainers, it's infuriating.


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## IanM (Sep 23, 2019)

Labour have now gone fully feral.  Synagogues are stepping up security.....and Iâ€™m not kidding


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175761568346382343


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175761568346382343

Click to expand...

 82% of English NHS prescriptions are already free...â€¦â€¦â€¦..take off the costs of administrating the existing system and it will probably equate to the amount that the 18% pay.


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## IanM (Sep 23, 2019)

pauldj42 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175761568346382343

Click to expand...


And the cost of state operation of the private schools by definition exceeds the cost of the tax exemption saving!


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## pendodave (Sep 23, 2019)

IanM said:



			And the cost of state operation of the private schools by definition exceeds the cost of the tax exemption saving!
		
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Not sure that merely removing an anachronistic tax exemption constitutes 'state operation of private schools'. 
Whataboutery continually used to cloud issues.


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## Hobbit (Sep 24, 2019)

IanM said:



			And the cost of state operation of the private schools by definition exceeds the cost of the tax exemption saving!
		
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The VAT alone for 1300 boys at Eton would be Â£1.2m. Not all boys pay full fees, Â£42k per year, many paying 90%. That doesnâ€™t even include other areas of tax exemption for the school.

If you had just one tax collector dealing with Etonâ€™s tax, youâ€™d be paying circa Â£55k inc pensions cont. and NI. Add in infrastructure costs and you might get closer to Â£75k.

The guy is only dealing with one school, and he is netting a minimum of Â£1m. In reality he would be processing, letâ€™s say, 20 schools.

Are you really saying that a cost of Â£75k is too much when the guy is netting upwards of Â£20m for HMRC?


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## USER1999 (Sep 24, 2019)

If a kid is in private school, they are, by default not in a state school, paid for by the state. So why not make private schools tax exempt, as they are saving the education system the money it would cost to educate them? 

Just a thought.


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## pendodave (Sep 24, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			If a kid is in private school, they are, by default not in a state school, paid for by the state. So why not make private schools tax exempt, as they are saving the education system the money it would cost to educate them?
Just a thought.
		
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I chose to spend money on lots of things that have an opportunity cost for me or society as a whole. I play tax on them. That's how it works.
If I spend money on my health and fitness it saves the NHS money. I pay tax on it.
If you choose to buy educational services, or run a business providing them, you should pay tax. 
We can be fairly confident the local comp won't be inundated with the scions of the wealthy I think...
As Harold Wilson once said, 'the rich will always be with us' ( after mathew 14.7).


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## USER1999 (Sep 24, 2019)

You could also look at private schools as a business that employs 303000 people, accordingvto the head of Eton. Amazon don't pay tax, nor Google, and many others, and this is viewed as kind of ok by the gov, as they are big employers. Any different?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			You could also look at private schools as a business that employs 303000 people, accordingvto the head of Eton. Amazon don't pay tax, nor Google, and many others, and this is viewed as kind of ok by the gov, as they are big employers. Any different?
		
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Thatâ€™s the problem Amazon should pay .


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## pendodave (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thatâ€™s the problem Amazon should pay .
		
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Indeed.
A bit like saying "I work really hard so I shouldn't pay tax". All these organisations, and us as individuals, rely on a functioning civilised society to exist. Tax is necessary to ensure that such a thing exists. Get over it.


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## Kellfire (Sep 24, 2019)

Back to Boris. Whatâ€™s his next step...


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Back to Boris. Whatâ€™s his next step...
		
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All 11 judges aswell just wow


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## Kellfire (Sep 24, 2019)

To answer my own question, surely tendering his resignation...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			To answer my own question, surely tendering his resignation...
		
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Naw, you would to have some dignity, loyalty and a conscious to do that.

He persuaded the Queen to perform an unlawful act. That seems quite serious to me.

Well done Joanna Cherry in protecting the UK from these idiots.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Naw, you would to have some dignity, loyalty and a conscious to do that.

He persuaded the Queen to perform an unlawful act. That seems quite serious to me.

Well done Joanna Cherry in protecting the UK from these idiots.
		
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We haven't had a beheading in a while


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## ger147 (Sep 24, 2019)

The key part of the judgement for me is parliament is no longer prorogued. So I assume Bercow will be in the back of his car heading to the HoC's either this afternoon or more likely tomorrow.

Just my personal opinion but I think the proper course of action in parliament tomorrow is to hear a statement from the prime minister and then the opposition should bring a vote of no confidence to either force a general election as soon as possible or effectively back Boris to continue as PM as right now, he has no authority whatsoever to continue in his role without the explicit backing of either the HoC's or the general public if he wins a general election.

As for Brexit, I would ask for a delay to 31st March to allow time for a general election to be called and whoever wins to sort out how they wish to proceed afterwards.


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## Kellfire (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			We haven't had a beheading in a while
		
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A shame EU laws prevent us from lopping his noggin off, eh?


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## ger147 (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			We haven't had a beheading in a while
		
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I don't think we should chop Liz's head off just yet, surely she deserves a 2nd chance after her years of service...


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Naw, you would to have some dignity, loyalty and a conscious to do that.

He persuaded the Queen to perform an unlawful act. That seems quite serious to me.

Well done Joanna Cherry in protecting the UK from these idiots.
		
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The thing for me is !
Boris is surrounded by advisors so to say he was lying to her Maj is pushing it a bit ?
He is only relaying what has been said to him.( by the lawyers for HM gov)
Itâ€™s been deemed unlawful after the fact.


Itâ€™s the right outcome , just not an ideal way to do it.
As every decision in the HOC can be challenged now.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 24, 2019)

Does this ruling actually change anything? Parliament is closed for party conferences so I assume that it's not going to reopen until after the Tory conference which is close to when it would have opened anyway.


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## patricks148 (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			The thing for me is !
Boris is surrounded by advisors so to say he was lying to her Maj is pushing it a bit ?
He is only relaying what has been said to him.( by the lawyers for HM gov)
Itâ€™s been deemed unlawful after the fact.


Itâ€™s the right outcome , just not an ideal way to do it.
*As every decision in the HOC can be challenged now*.
		
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no its not, thats not the judgment of the hearing quite the contrary


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The key part of the judgement for me is parliament is no longer prorogued. So I assume Bercow will be in the back of his car heading to the HoC's either this afternoon or more likely tomorrow.

Just my personal opinion but I think the proper course of action in parliament tomorrow is to hear a statement from the prime minister and then the opposition should bring a vote of no confidence to either force a general election as soon as possible or effectively back Boris to continue as PM as right now, he has no authority whatsoever to continue in his role without the explicit backing of either the HoC's or the general public if he wins a general election.

As for Brexit, I would ask for a delay to 31st March to allow time for a general election to be called and whoever wins to sort out how they wish to proceed afterwards.
		
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Agree with that, looks like Labours [no] decision yesterday might now be a winner.


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## Piece (Sep 24, 2019)

Hooray. MPs back to Parliament to argue some more, whenever than maybe. Then argue some more. Tell porkies. Then more again. Then ask for more delays to Brexit. Rinse. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Nothing resolved. Then a General Election where the parties align themselves to a Brexit position and the public vote purely on this. Whatever outcome we will be back to where we are now or were. Limbo. Nothing sorted. Arguments. Repeat. Repeat..until the end of time. Civil war is the only option now. 

JFC. UK current democracy in action is joy to watch.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			no its not, thats not the judgment of the hearing quite the contrary
		
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So a decision in the house has not been challenged?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does this ruling actually change anything? Parliament is closed for party conferences so I assume that it's not going to reopen until after the Tory conference which is close to when it would have opened anyway.
		
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Different scenario, they should reschedule the Tory conference.
Incredibly they close Parliament for the Lib Dems conference of 15 MP's but not for the SNP's 35 MP's
All conferences should be outside the parliamentary timetable.

Time now to have a legal UK constitution.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

Piece said:



			Hooray. MPs back to Parliament to argue some more, whenever than maybe. Then argue some more. Tell porkies. Then more again. Then ask for more delays to Brexit. Rinse. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Nothing resolved. Then a General Election where the parties align themselves to a Brexit position and the public vote purely on this. Whatever outcome we will be back to where we are now or were. Limbo. Nothing sorted. Arguments. Repeat. Repeat..until the end of time. Civil war is the only option now. 

JFC. UK current democracy in action is joy to watch. 

Click to expand...

Think your right keep this going until we all give up and keep the Status Quo has been the plan all along.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 24, 2019)

Can he not appeal, and delay it some more?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Can he not appeal, and delay it some more?
		
Click to expand...

11-0 I donâ€™t think so.


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## ger147 (Sep 24, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Can he not appeal, and delay it some more?
		
Click to expand...

No.


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## jp5 (Sep 24, 2019)

Surely Johnson must now resign


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## patricks148 (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			So a decision in the house has not been challenged?
		
Click to expand...

you said every decision in the house can be challenged, this  wasn't a dec of the HOC it was the PM  ignoring the law.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

Breaking news.
LBJ to appeal UK Supreme Courts decision to the European court.


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## jp5 (Sep 24, 2019)

Can't say he's wrong sadly...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176441621962985474


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## Dellboy (Sep 24, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Can he not appeal, and delay it some more?
		
Click to expand...

No he canâ€™t, but he could go back to the queen and do it all over again


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## jp5 (Sep 24, 2019)

Pretty starkly put...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176442125657026561


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

surely he has to resign, immediately.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

Unpopular opinion: this Supreme Court decision doesnâ€™t really make any difference to what happens with Brexit. Boris Johnson already didnâ€™t have a majority, he already lost a vote tying his hands over No Deal and he already lost a vote to have a general election. So whatâ€™s next? 

A reminder of all the things MPs have voted they don't want: - May's first and second deal - The WA without the Pol Dec - No deal - EFTA/EEA and single mkt - EFTA/EEA but not single mkt - Customs Union - Customs Union & single mkt alignment - Revocation - Second Referendum


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Different scenario, they should reschedule the Tory conference.
Incredibly they close Parliament for the Lib Dems conference of 15 MP's but not for the SNP's 35 MP's
All conferences should be outside the parliamentary timetable.

Time now to have a legal UK constitution.
		
Click to expand...

Why don't the SNP hold their conference during the time parliament is closed for all the other conferences?


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-24...ohnson-is-their-servant-writes-robert-peston/


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 24, 2019)

Dellboy said:



			No he canâ€™t, but he could go back to the queen and do it all over again
		
Click to expand...

They were talking about this at the weekend.

Then again, they could have a vote of no confidence leading to an election, which is what he wanted all along. It might have taken longer to get there but there is where we get.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

Andrew Neil

@afneil
Â·
26m

The airwaves now thick with calls for the PM to resign. Not surprising. But there is only one way to ensure it now parliament is returning â€” pass a vote of no confidence.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

What a broken country our politicians have created. Between them they have created this absolute pantomime of our parliament.  Have they no shame .


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2019)

It may be divisive, annoying and ever lasting 

However politics is now interesting


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

I guess we will have more of these self gratifying baboons taking over control of Parliamentary business, turning the prime minister into a puppet to enact their will while not allowing a general election.  What kind of country is run like this?


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What a broken country our politicians have created. Between them they have created this absolute pantomime of our parliament.  Have they no shame .
		
Click to expand...


100% created by the conservative party.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			It may be divisive, annoying and ever lasting

However politics is now interesting
		
Click to expand...

Interesting!  Its as interesting as someone sticking pins in your eyes.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Interesting!  ts as interesting as someone sticking pins in your eyes.
		
Click to expand...

We all cheered like a goal going in when the judges ruled boris had acted unlawfully


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## drdel (Sep 24, 2019)

I think I'll book a Thomas Cook vacation!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			100% created by the conservative party.
		
Click to expand...

And your post typifies the problem.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think I'll book a Thomas Cook vacation!
		
Click to expand...

A couple of weeks in Syria would be better.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why don't the SNP hold their conference during the time parliament is closed for all the other conferences?
		
Click to expand...

Why don't they keep quiet . Why is this lot putting their spoke into matters they do not want to be any part of? They want to be in Edinburgh arguing how to govern the nation of Scotland and not any other nation, which would include, the United Kingdom,which would then be England, Wales and N I.
Folks should have this in mind whenever they speak about Brexit, or prorogued Parliament or Boris resigning  etc.
Keep in mind their motives. They certainly are not for the benefits of England or Wales or NI.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess we will have more of these self gratifying baboons taking over control of Parliamentary business, turning the prime minister into a puppet to enact their will while not allowing a general election.  What kind of country is run like this?
		
Click to expand...

tories in control since 2010, but letâ€™s blame everybody else.


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## jp5 (Sep 24, 2019)

The hardline Conservative Brexiteers weren't willing to accept Mrs May's deal, and they'll never accept any deal. That's why we're stuck in this situation. I hope they come to their senses or there'll be no Brexit at all.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Why don't they keep quiet . Why is this lot putting their spoke into matters they do not want to be any part of? They want to be in Edinburgh arguing how to govern the nation of Scotland and not any other nation, which would include, the United Kingdom,which would then be England, Wales and N I.
Folks should have this in mind whenever they speak about Brexit, or prorogued Parliament or Boris resigning  etc.
Keep in mind their motives. They certainly are not for the benefits of England or Wales or NI.
		
Click to expand...

Goodness me, you seem to be lacking a serious amount of facts in that comment.

UK Supreme Court judgement â€¦.Scottish Courts 11 English Courts 0.
UK Parliament takes back control.
You lost, get over it.


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			tories in control since 2010, but letâ€™s blame everybody else.

Click to expand...

Exactly.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

So brexit started in 2010 ?


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## GreiginFife (Sep 24, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Why don't they keep quiet . Why is this lot putting their spoke into matters they do not want to be any part of? They want to be in Edinburgh arguing how to govern the nation of Scotland and not any other nation, which would include, the United Kingdom,which would then be England, Wales and N I.
Folks should have this in mind whenever they speak about Brexit, or prorogued Parliament or Boris resigning  etc.
Keep in mind their motives. They certainly are not for the benefits of England or Wales or NI.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly because what the SNP want to be doing, what the want to be part of or not is immaterial. They *are *part of it and the people of Scotland are part of it. The SNP hosted a referendum in 2014 and lost, this means Scotland are still part of the United Kingdom along with England, Wales and NI. There is no, _would then be England, Wales and NI._ There is only the United Kingdom *as it stands*.

The politicians of England aren't interested in Scotland and Scottish affairs, the Welsh are not all that interested in England or Scotland and the Northern Irish are probably focused on what's in the interests of Northern Ireland. That's pretty much how life works. 

Twitter is pretty much hilarious just now, as are some of the responses on here, Conspiracies abound and it's everyone else's fault. The bottom line is, the actions of the leader of our parliament, the leader of our country, has been judged by 11 of the land's highest authorities and been found wanting. That's not someone else's fault. That's like saying the burglar only went to jail because the home owner pressed charges and it's all the home owner's fault, rather than the fault of the person(s) that took the action adjudged to have been out side of the limits of the law.

I also love the twitter cries of "they should appeal it, it's the wrong result" whilst clinging on to the referendum result as being sacrosanct in being respected. 

Whilst I am Scottish, I have no love of the SNP and their failed governing. The likes of Doon's constant anti-everything not SNP stance is testament to their proaganda's effectiveness. For me, it's slightly embarrassing that people that would, under normal circumstances, be considered fairly intelligent buy in to the conspiracy nonsense that it's all everyone else's fault. 

Likewise, Englanders that slight Scotland every opportunity they get and then talk about chips on shoulders etc, what are we all? 5? Politics, like religion, In my opinion, has a habit of turning normal, rational people into foaming, ravers with nothing more insightful than beyond the limit of their agenda or belief system. No one will change their view point based on the posts on a golf forum, as admirably demonstrated by the length of this thread and the same views being repeated over and over again by the same people. 

We voted to leave, whether that was the right or wrong thing to do is immaterial, the vote was held and the result was reached. Therein lies the simplicity of our system overarched by the complexity of or system.


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## Robster59 (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			tories in control since 2010, but letâ€™s blame everybody else.

Click to expand...

It was a Tory Prime Minister who made the decision to call a Brexit vote to protect his Premiershipand then ran away when it didn't go as he thought it would. 
But the lack of input from Labour, and especially Corbyn, during the campaign for the Remain side was appalling.  He doesn't care how much the country declines as long as he can get into power.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So brexit started in 2010 ?
		
Click to expand...

Did farage contest that election?


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## woofers (Sep 24, 2019)

So what are they going to do if they all go back to Parliament tomorrow ?
They already passed the bills about the process should there be No Deal before 19 October.
And they all planned to be away at the conferences for 3 weeks now anyway.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

Robster59 said:



			It was a Tory Prime Minister who made the decision to call a Brexit vote to protect his Premiershipand then ran away when it didn't go as he thought it would.
But the lack of input from Labour, and especially Corbyn, during the campaign for the Remain side was appalling.  He doesn't care how much the country declines as long as he can get into power.
		
Click to expand...

Youâ€™re missing out a hell of a lot to jump to Labour, ie, the next tory PM called an election and severley weakened her position, then went on a 2 year negotiation without talking to virtually anybody, split her own party, failed to get her party to back her deal, then run away.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

On Friday the opposition parties can propose a vote of no confidence in LBJ's failed minority government without any fear of LBJ cheating so he can get a no deal Brexit through on 31st Oct.. 
25 working days rule before calling date for an election.


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## ger147 (Sep 24, 2019)

woofers said:



			So what are they going to do if they all go back to Parliament tomorrow ?
They already passed the bills about the process should there be No Deal before 19 October.
And they all planned to be away at the conferences for 3 weeks now anyway.
		
Click to expand...

It's Wednesday tomorrow so first up at 12pm is Questions to the Prime Minister. Should be a good laugh, the queue to have a kick at Boris will be right round the block...


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## Kellfire (Sep 24, 2019)

ger147 said:



			It's Wednesday tomorrow so first up at 12pm is Questions to the Prime Minister. Should be a good laugh, the queue to have a kick at Boris will be right round the block...
		
Click to expand...

Theyâ€™ve said thereâ€™ll be no PMâ€™s questions tomorrow unless something has changed in the last hour or so.


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## ger147 (Sep 24, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Theyâ€™ve said thereâ€™ll be no PMâ€™s questions tomorrow unless something has changed in the last hour or so.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't see what the Speaker had said about it, just assumed it would be Wednesday business as usual.

No doubt an emergency debate will be called, will be interesting to see of Boris turns up or stays in the USA.


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## Kellfire (Sep 24, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I didn't see what the Speaker had said about it, just assumed it would be Wednesday business as usual.

No doubt an emergency debate will be called, will be interesting to see of Boris turns up or stays in the USA.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe heâ€™ll claim political asylum over there.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176431923100618754


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## oxymoron (Sep 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me, you seem to be lacking a serious amount of facts in that comment.

UK Supreme Court judgement â€¦.Scottish Courts 11 English Courts 0.
UK Parliament takes back control.
*You lost, get over it*.
		
Click to expand...

Oh the irony of that statement on this thread , lets add a few things , Scottish independence,,lost -get over it , remain in the EU ,, lost -get over it


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## Dellboy (Sep 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			On Friday the opposition parties can propose a vote of no confidence in LBJ's failed minority government without any fear of LBJ cheating so he can get a no deal Brexit through on 31st Oct..
25 working days rule before calling date for an election.
		
Click to expand...

They can call a vote of no Confidence tomorrow and have a vote on Thursday, 

The Commons then has 14 days to pass a motion of confidence in either Mr Johnson's government or a new alternative administration.

If it fails to do so, power falls to Mr Johnson to set the date for a general election.
which he could call it so we leave with no deal and no sitting Parliament


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## Robster59 (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re missing out a hell of a lot to jump to Labour, ie, the next tory PM called an election and severley weakened her position, then went on a 2 year negotiation without talking to virtually anybody, split her own party, failed to get her party to back her deal, then run away.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not taking the blame off the conservatives but the Labour party did virtually nothing to support the Remain vote.  And I'm not saying this as a conservative as I'm a life-long Labour supporter, or have been till Corbyn became leader.  Now I have no faith in him as a leader of a country, neither do I in Boris.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

Robster59 said:



			I'm not taking the blame off the conservatives but the Labour party did virtually nothing to support the Remain vote.  And I'm not saying this as a conservative as I'm a life-long Labour supporter, or have been till Corbyn became leader.  Now I have no faith in him as a leader of a country, neither do I in Boris.
		
Click to expand...

I see what you mean, I voted to Leave, but had nothing to do with Party Politics, people should of made up their own mind rather than expecting the party they support telling them.
Part of the issue was also in the past people like Corbyn was anti-EU.
Agree with your sentiments on Corbyn, same for me.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Oh the irony of that statement on this thread , lets add a few things , Scottish independence,,lost -get over it , remain in the EU ,, lost -get over it 

Click to expand...

Bad loser eh.
Dry your eyes mate.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			tories in control since 2010, but letâ€™s blame everybody else.

Click to expand...

You see everything as an attack on Labour  Most of the MPs creating this mess are turfed out Conservatives.   In saying that Labour are a joke party these days, just look at the antics this last week


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Bad loser eh.
Dry your eyes mate.
		
Click to expand...

Thats right, the smell of sour grapes are bringing tears to his eyes.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

Kuensberg

1. Cabinet call at about 6pm tonight before PM flies back from NY to face the music in Parliament tomorrow 2. Different views in govt over what to do next - one Cabinet minister says nothing changes with strategy, unless Labour force confidence vote tomorrow - another says govt needs now to 'kill of no deal' - 'PM has lost complete control of the process' 3. Johnson statement signals displeasure but doesn't really change v much - will a more radical response emerge later on? . Meanwhile rebel alliance + opposition leaders talking + wondering what to do next - as ever, sticking point for them is they agree leaving without a deal is madness, beyond they don't agree on that much - so while they are likely to take control in Parliament tmrw, to do what?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Kuensberg

*they are likely to take control in Parliament tmrw, to do what*?
		
Click to expand...

Frustrate Brexit in any possible way they can.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You see everything as an attack on Labour  Most of the MPs creating this mess are turfed out Conservatives.   In saying that Labour are a joke party these days, just look at the antics this last week 

Click to expand...

No, I see everything as an attack on the opposition and a complete and utter failure from tories to take any responsibility for their parties actions.

As for saying Labour are being the joke party you really need to look closer to home.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, I see everything as an attack on the opposition and a complete and utter failure from tories to take any responsibility for their parties actions.

As for saying Labour are being the joke party you really need to look closer to home.
		
Click to expand...

You just don't get it, or you dont want to.   *THEY ARE ALL A JOKE, *all of them, even your sacred labour.

I dont have any MPs at Home


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You just don't get it, or you dont want to.   *THEY ARE ALL A JOKE, *all of them, even your sacred labour.

I dont have any MPs at Home  

Click to expand...

 You really do have trouble remembering things, just for you as you seem a little distressed at the moment.
I donâ€™t like Corbyn, itâ€™s not the same Labour Party I grew up with, the current Labour Party is a mess.

For all you say, your way of defending this Government is to blame everyone else, you canâ€™t, thereâ€™s only been one Party in charge since 2010, they are the ones who should be in control, they have dropped the ball and created the mess.

Every Country needs a valid and strong opposition to make a Government accountable, the tories are in a mess because of their own doing, *NOT because the opposition are rubbish.*


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			you said every decision in the house can be challenged, this  wasn't a dec of the HOC it was the PM  ignoring the law.
		
Click to expand...

Isnâ€™t he advised by the attorney general though.
It wasnâ€™t against the law until the judges decided it was this morning.
That shows how crap his legal team are to put him in that position.

But I can see future decisions in the house being challenged now we know the courts are in charge.
He did declare the pro rouge of the Hoc in the house as I remember.


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Frustrate Brexit in any possible way they can.
		
Click to expand...

We can but hope


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Isnâ€™t he advised by the attorney general though.
It wasnâ€™t against the law until the judges decided it was this morning.
That shows how crap his legal team are to put him in that position.

But I can see future decisions in the house being challenged now we know the courts are in charge.
He did declare the pro rouge of the Hoc in the house as I remember.
		
Click to expand...

A quick reminder: Geoffrey Cox assured colleagues in wake of Boris Johnson's decision to prorogue Parliament was all legal and above board The Attorney General told a Cabinet conference call that in his opinion there was 'nothing unlawful and unconstitutional' about it


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

This is big. From a Government source. It shows that Boris Johnson will not abandon his culture war to secure Brexit, deal or no deal, on 31 October, despite (or because of) the Supreme Court humiliation. Some in Johnson's cabinet will be uneasy. "Judges are making our case... " for us. Boris is trying to get Brexit done by 31 October, which most people agree with, and he faces the rich, powerful Remain world determined to overturn the biggest democratic vote in British history. The Supreme Court has said themselves their judgment... "is about giving Parliament more time for its fight against the government over Brexit so they can hardly be surprised when millions draw the inevitable inference..." This is all going to get even messier before we're through it.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			We can but hope 

Click to expand...

The EU must be pissing their pants laughing today.


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			The EU must be pissing their pants laughing today.
		
Click to expand...

With this shower in charge, I imagine they ran out of dry underwear by early 2017.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			This is big. From a Government source. It shows that Boris Johnson will not abandon his culture war to secure Brexit, deal or no deal, on 31 October, despite (or because of) the Supreme Court humiliation. Some in Johnson's cabinet will be uneasy. "Judges are making our case... " for us. Boris is trying to get Brexit done by 31 October, which most people agree with, and he faces the rich, powerful Remain world determined to overturn the biggest democratic vote in British history. The Supreme Court has said themselves their judgment... "is about giving Parliament more time for its fight against the government over Brexit so they can hardly be surprised when millions draw the inevitable inference..." This is all going to get even messier before we're through it.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is an interesting angle. Whilst many in the press and Westminster will love this ruling it may play well to the public for Boris. He is trying to enact Brexit and all of these obstacles are being put in his way. However, he still ploughs on 'we will leave on Oct 31st'. I suspect many millions don't care about this judgement but do care about leaving. In an election campaign I am not sure this damages him, it may even enhance him to many voters.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			The EU must be pissing their pants laughing today.
		
Click to expand...

no just filling their pockets :

They have just announced in Brussels that the UK must pay Â£17 BILLION in 2020 - even after a no deal Brexit Rather than cut projects or ask existing members to pay more, their plan is to milk us as if Brexit didnâ€™t happen


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			This is big. From a Government source. It shows that Boris Johnson will not abandon his culture war to secure Brexit, deal or no deal, on 31 October, despite (or because of) the Supreme Court humiliation. Some in Johnson's cabinet will be uneasy. "Judges are making our case... " for us. Boris is trying to get Brexit done by 31 October, which most people agree with, *and he faces the rich, powerful Remain world *determined to overturn the biggest democratic vote in British history. The Supreme Court has said themselves their judgment... "is about giving Parliament more time for its fight against the government over Brexit so they can hardly be surprised when millions draw the inevitable inference..." This is all going to get even messier before we're through it.
		
Click to expand...

I do feel sorry for all the poor leavers (Rees Mogg, Gove, Johnson, Farage, Banks et al)


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			no just filling their pockets :

They have just announced in Brussels that the UK must pay Â£17 BILLION in 2020 - even after a no deal Brexit Rather than cut projects or ask existing members to pay more, their plan is to milk us as if Brexit didnâ€™t happen
		
Click to expand...


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I do feel sorry for all the poor leavers (Rees Mogg, Gove, Johnson, Farage, Banks et al) 

Click to expand...

Dont forget Mr Dyson


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think this is an interesting angle. Whilst many in the press and Westminster will love this ruling it may play well to the public for Boris. He is trying to enact Brexit and *all of these obstacles are being put in his way*. However, he still ploughs on 'we will leave on Oct 31st'. I suspect *many millions don't care* about this judgement but do care about leaving. In an election campaign I am not sure this damages him, it may even enhance him to many voters.
		
Click to expand...

Is his own uselessness one of those obstacles?

I'm sure many millions don't care, they'd rather the government concentrated on putting all the non-EU issues right, rather than pissing all the time they have into the BREXIT rubbish


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Dont forget Mr Dyson
		
Click to expand...

The poor dear


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			The poor dear

Click to expand...

And his mates Mr JCB and Wetherspoon.


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And your post typifies the problem.
		
Click to expand...

Tell me how it isnt the tory parties fault?
I remember telling you at the time that by voting down Mays deal, the ERG were probably giving up on brexit ever happening.
Its not any closer is it?
If they had put the country ahead of their own personal interests then we could have left by now and be negotiating the next phase.
Instead we are in this sorry mess , Labours only fault is they are  not much of an opposition.


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			And his mates Mr JCB and Wetherspoon.
		
Click to expand...

Stop it! If you keep mentioning all these rich & powerful leave supporters, you're going to make it seem like it isn't only the remainers who can be described as "the elite"!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Dont forget Mr Dyson
		
Click to expand...

â€¦..and Mr Tim Martin of Weatherspoon's who just can't understand why his business is doing so poorly since he started backing the leave mob and isolated 48% of his customers.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Is his own uselessness one of those obstacles?

I'm sure many millions don't care, they'd rather the government concentrated on putting all the non-EU issues right, rather than pissing all the time they have into the BREXIT rubbish
		
Click to expand...

The Brexit is the only issue right now, wrongly but true. When people vote in the inevitable election it will dominate.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness me, you seem to be lacking a serious amount of facts in that comment.

UK Supreme Court judgement â€¦.Scottish Courts 11 English Courts 0.
UK Parliament takes back control.
You lost, get over it.
		
Click to expand...

And you can't even see what my comment was about. If you bothered to show what my comment was in response to, you will see it is the SNP in general.
I am not commenting on the Courts', Scottish or English , decision on prorogueing, I am commenting on the immorality of people using a Parliament they don't want to be in ( because they want their own as an independent nation) to throw spanners in the works for their own agendas, those agendas being nothing to do with the wellbeing or progress of England , Wales or NI.
It's like a company having people on its board of directors who don't want to be in that company, but on the board of another one completely; and having the gall to affect the decisions of the board they are sitting on, notwithstanding that they have no interest in the effect those decisions have on that company unless those decisions assist their ability to leave that company.
You think that is morally right?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			no just filling their pockets :

They have just announced in Brussels that the UK must pay Â£17 BILLION in 2020 - even after a no deal Brexit Rather than cut projects or ask existing members to pay more, their plan is to milk us as if Brexit didnâ€™t happen
		
Click to expand...

Really?
It covers projects ongoing in the UK as well as other projects jointly involved, aero bus, security etc.

Does anybody genuinely believe if we left with a No Deal Brexit on 31st Oct we wouldnâ€™t pay a penny more.


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The Brexit is the only issue right now, wrongly but true. When people vote in the inevitable election it will dominate.
		
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So the NHS doesn't matter to millions of people,
Schools don;t matter to millions of people,
Poverty doesn't matter to millions of people,
Climate change doesn't matter to millions of people,
Social care doesn't matter to millions of people?


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			So the NHS doesn't matter to millions of people,
Schools don;t matter to millions of people,
Poverty doesn't matter to millions of people,
Climate change doesn't matter to millions of people,
Social care doesn't matter to millions of people?
		
Click to expand...

Exactly
Real issues!
Instead we piss the last 3 years away on some intangible nonsense that is brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Exactly
Real issues!
Instead we piss the last 3 years away on some intangible nonsense that is brexit.
		
Click to expand...

We didn't need to though, leaving could be so easy if MPs respected the peoples vote.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We didn't need to though, leaving could be so easy if MPs respected the peoples vote.
		
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Or never have called the vote for something the important people in charge actually dont want so just doing their best to keep it from happening whilst trying to convince the leavers it's in their best interest


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We didn't need to though, leaving could be so easy if MPs respected the peoples vote.
		
Click to expand...

Correct we didnt need to, except it was the self serving tory MPs that voted down the deal who had no respect. thats who your ire should be aimed at.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			So the NHS doesn't matter to millions of people,
Schools don;t matter to millions of people,
Poverty doesn't matter to millions of people,
Climate change doesn't matter to millions of people,
Social care doesn't matter to millions of people?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely they matter but Brexit will dominate this forthcoming election imo. Labour made a whole host of promises yesterday but they have all been lost in the noise of their own bodged vote / policy on Brexit and then this today. What does that tell you? It is the overriding issue and many will vote on this as the key issue.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			â€¦..and Mr Tim Martin of Weatherspoon's who just can't understand why his business is doing so poorly since he started backing the leave mob and isolated 48% of his customers.
		
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Guessing you've not frequented too many 'spoons... Had he supported remain I'd suggest he'd be alienating at least 90% of his customer base...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			So the NHS doesn't matter to millions of people,
Schools don;t matter to millions of people,
Poverty doesn't matter to millions of people,
Climate change doesn't matter to millions of people,
Social care doesn't matter to millions of people?
		
Click to expand...

That's a rather crass comment.   You know he meant Brexit is the* main* issue right now in peoples minds but to extrapolate that into people not caring about schools, poverty etc is plain silly.


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## USER1999 (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Correct we didnt need to, except it was the self serving tory MPs that voted down the deal who had no respect. thats who your ire should be aimed at.
		
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When are people going to accept that it was a terrible deal, and that is why it was voted down. 3 times. It is an awful document. Beyond bad.

It wasn't voted down out of self serving, disrespectful ERG'ers. It was voted down because it was bad for the UK.


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			When are people going to accept that it was a terrible deal, and that is why it was voted down. 3 times. It is an awful document. Beyond bad.

It wasn't voted down out of self serving, disrespectful ERG'ers. It was voted down because it was bad for the UK.
		
Click to expand...

So bad that that some of them changed their minds when they thought they might get something out of it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			When are people going to accept that it was a terrible deal, and that is why it was voted down. 3 times. It is an awful document. Beyond bad.

It wasn't voted down out of self serving, disrespectful ERG'ers. It was voted down because it was bad for the UK.
		
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Probably because people keep blaming and having a go at MPâ€™s for ignoring the â€œwill of the peopleâ€

So given the fact the majority of MPâ€™s thought TMâ€™s deal was bad for the UK, and, the majority of MPâ€™s do not wish to leave on a No Deal, are they not simply doing their job.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Correct we didnt need to, except it was the self serving tory MPs that voted down the deal who had no respect. thats who your ire should be aimed at.
		
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Do you expect me to disagree?  I would add that any MP disrespecting the Peoples vote are to blame for the mess.

Regarding Mays deal:  Its is a bag of worms that was negotiated in bad faith, it needed voting down in its present form.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			And you can't even see what my comment was about. If you bothered to show what my comment was in response to, you will see it is the SNP in general.
I am not commenting on the Courts', Scottish or English , decision on prorogueing, I am commenting on the immorality of people using a Parliament they don't want to be in ( because they want their own as an independent nation) to throw spanners in the works for their own agendas, those agendas being nothing to do with the wellbeing or progress of England , Wales or NI.
It's like a company having people on its board of directors who don't want to be in that company, but on the board of another one completely; and having the gall to affect the decisions of the board they are sitting on, notwithstanding that they have no interest in the effect those decisions have on that company unless those decisions assist their ability to leave that company.
You think that is morally right?
		
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I think you need to go away and read up a bit about The Union.
Starting from a very low start.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you expect me to disagree?  I would add that any MP disrespecting the Peoples vote are to blame for the mess.

Regarding Mays deal:  Its is a bag of worms that was negotiated in bad faith, it needed voting down in its present form.
		
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Your 2nd paragraph states the reason MPâ€™s are not disrespecting anyone, itâ€™s tory PR rubbish.

The Government (presently tory) are in control and must get a deal that the majority of MPâ€™s support.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			A quick reminder: Geoffrey Cox assured colleagues in wake of Boris Johnson's decision to prorogue Parliament was all legal and above board The Attorney General told a Cabinet conference call that in his opinion there was 'nothing unlawful and unconstitutional' about it
		
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So the top legal adviser in the country is completely at odds with our courts.
No wonder we are in a mess.
With legal advice like that itâ€™s a good job it wasnâ€™t something serious.!!!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			So the top legal adviser in the country is completely at odds with our courts.
No wonder we are in a mess.
With legal advice like that itâ€™s a good job it wasnâ€™t something serious.!!!
		
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It cant be easy to predict how Courts will interpret a matter like prorogation or the intent to prorogate parliament, that was clear from the different interpretations previously given in three high courts.  There was also the question of whether the courts had the authority to decide on political matters and the English high court did in fact rule that they shouldn't.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Your 2nd paragraph states the reason MPâ€™s are not disrespecting anyone, itâ€™s tory PR rubbish.

The Government (presently tory) are in control and must get a deal that the majority of MPâ€™s support.
		
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But you are confusing the situation.  Whether Mays Withdraw Deal was acceptable and the way Mps have frustrated the process of leaving by taking No Deal off the table are different matters.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It cant be easy to predict how Courts will interpret a matter like prorogation or the intent to prorogate parliament, that was clear from the different interpretations previously given in three high courts.  There was also the question of whether the courts had the authority to decide on political matters and the English high court did in fact rule that they shouldn't.
		
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I agree but these very reasons are being spouted to get Boris to resign for lying to the Queen.

The attorney general said one thing but 11 judges went against his advice.
How could he get it so wrong?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			So the top legal adviser in the country is completely at odds with our courts.
No wonder we are in a mess.
With legal advice like that itâ€™s a good job it wasnâ€™t something serious.!!!
		
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I would not say he is the top legal adviser in the country [which one BTW as the UK has two legal systems] just the Tory party.
He has always struck me at being a bit pompous and not very good.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Your 2nd paragraph states the reason MPâ€™s are not disrespecting anyone, itâ€™s tory PR rubbish.

The Government (presently tory) are in control and must get a deal that the majority of MPâ€™s support.
		
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Isnâ€™t that the major problem.
The government have messed this up so much that they are not in control.
While the EU just watch us implode they donâ€™t have to do anything.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But you are confusing the situation.  Whether Mays Withdraw Deal was acceptable and the way Mps have frustrated the process of leaving by taking No Deal off the table are different matters.
		
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So at first they did the right thing, but now itâ€™s the wrong thing?

The goal posts are moving to suit your point of view.

I voted Leave, I agree with them stopping a No Deal, isnâ€™t that my democratic rights being supported?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Isnâ€™t that the major problem.
The government have messed this up so much that they are not in control.
While the EU just watch us implode they donâ€™t have to do anything.
		
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The Government need to take control back by being sensible, look at how much time TM wasted by not talking to others, how much time was wasted by her resigning etc. None of that was down to opposition parties.


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a rather crass comment.   You know he meant Brexit is the* main* issue right now in peoples minds but to extrapolate that into people not caring about schools, poverty etc is plain silly.
		
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he should have said *main* then...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			With this shower in charge, I imagine they ran out of dry underwear by early 2017.
		
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Shouldn't be a problem though, they must have a trade agreement to import some new ones?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Or never have called the vote for something the important people in charge actually dont want so just doing their best to keep it from happening whilst trying to convince the leavers it's in their best interest
		
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Can you provide any proof that we are better to stay in the EU?


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Shouldn't be a problem though, they must have a trade agreement to import some new ones? 

Click to expand...

At least their people will actually have the ability to make an agreement ðŸ‘

Ours would talk all about the agreements theyâ€™ll make, and then not manage to get anything sorted ðŸ‘Ž


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So at first they did the right thing, but now itâ€™s the wrong thing?

The goal posts are moving to suit your point of view.

I voted Leave, I agree with them stopping a No Deal, isnâ€™t that my democratic rights being supported?
		
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You are still confusing issues, not sure if its on purpose or not.
Mays bad deal and blocking No Deal are two different issues but you seem to be saying they are the same.

How you voted and how you feel about no deal is your business and I'm not really concerned about it.

I hope that clarifies it for you as I don't know how to explain it any simpler.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

MPs cannot agree a Brexit plan between them. Yet they won't let us leave without a deal; they won't move a vote of no confidence; they won't agree to an election; and they support judges ruling on what are ultimately political decisions. Was a parliament ever so discredited?


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			MPs cannot agree a Brexit plan between them. Yet they won't let us leave without a deal; they won't move a vote of no confidence; they won't agree to an election; and they support judges ruling on what are ultimately political decisions. Was a parliament ever so discredited?
		
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put it to the public again.
In
out with no deal


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

You got to wonder why the EU would want us in (apart from the Money)


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## Slime (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The Government need to take control back by being sensible, look at how much time TM wasted by not talking to others, how much time was wasted by her resigning etc.* None of that was down to opposition parties.*

Click to expand...

I didn't realise they'd all supported her deal!


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## Slime (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			put it to the public again.
In
out with no deal
		
Click to expand...

Put it to the public again.
Out with a deal or out with no deal.
The people have already voted against staying in.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are still confusing issues, not sure if its on purpose or not.
Mays bad deal and blocking No Deal are two different issues but you seem to be saying they are the same.

How you voted and how you feel about no deal is your business and I'm not really concerned about it.

I hope that clarifies it for you as I don't know how to explain it any simpler.
		
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They are not 2 different issues!

The only people that talked about a No Deal scenario was the remain supporters and that was dismissed under project fear.

No talk of No Deal until TM flogged the dead horse.

All of a sudden itâ€™s discussed like itâ€™s the only option, the PM has ran about since August like a bull in a china shop promising all sorts and as yet has failed to deliver anything.

As your so dismissive of my business, let me explain:

We had a vote and remainers (losers as you called them) were told to suck it up and move on as they lost.

Iâ€™m a leaver (winner) and now the leave situation has changed, Iâ€™m now told I donâ€™t matter, am I expected to suck it up and move on?

Youâ€™ve banged on about democracy, but it only sounds like a drum you beat when it suits you personally.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

Slime said:



			I didn't realise they'd all supported her deal!
		
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You need to follow the thread rather than take one post out of context.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Can you provide any proof that we are better to stay in the EU?
		
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Can you provide proof its better to leave 

Neither of us can


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

Slime said:



			Put it to the public again.
Out with a deal or out with no deal.
The people have already voted against staying in.
		
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Then you've nothing to worry about have you.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			put it to the public again.
In
out with no deal
		
Click to expand...

Why put it to the public. The vote was in or out, end of story. No grey areas. Why out with no deal after second vote. Quite frankly, Cameron, May and Boris have failed us miserably. Jezza, does he come out of this smelling of roses. Really, what a shower of crap we have. Labour celebrating the Torys failings, not there successes. Consider your position Jezza says. What a prat. He has a chance to kick Boris out. But he does not want to have an election. If he is so confident, tell Boris you will take him on at an election. What about wee willie Krankie and the Lib dem leader. Are they any better. Am gettig meself wound up writing this crap.
Out means bloody out. End of story.
Let's get back to basics RH. Do us a favour and post up what the Lisbon Treaty means and how it will affect us staying in the EU seeing as you and others want a second vote and want to disregard democracy.
Glad am off on me Jols Friday so I don't have to listen to this shower of crap for a month.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Why put it to the public. The vote was in or out, end of story. No grey areas. Why out with no deal after second vote. Quite frankly, Cameron, May and Boris have failed us miserably. Jezza, does he come out of this smelling of roses. Really, what a shower of crap we have. Labour celebrating the Torys failings, not there successes. Consider your position Jezza says. What a prat. He has a chance to kick Boris out. But he does not want to have an election. If he is so confident, tell Boris you will take him on at an election. What about wee willie Krankie and the Lib dem leader. Are they any better. Am getting wound meself up writing this crap.
Out means bloody out. End of story.
Let's get back to basics RH. Do us a favour and post up what the Lisbon Treaty means and how it will affect us staying in the EU seeing as you and others want a second vote and want to disregard democracy.
Glad am off on me Jols Friday so I don't have to listen to this shower of crap for a month.
		
Click to expand...

Please show were Leave meant out with No Deal.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Can you provide proof its better to leave

Neither of us can
		
Click to expand...

Two words, Lisbon treaty. 

Be brave. If your so proud to remain in the EU, copy and paste the Lisbon Treaty what it actually means to be better off in the EU. Try doing it. Ave asked RH. Let's see who will out of you two or any remainer.


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Two words, Lisbon treaty.

Be brave. If your so proud to remain in the EU, copy and paste the Lisbon Treaty what it actually means to be better off in the EU. Try doing it. Ave asked RH. Let's see who will out of you two or any remainer.
		
Click to expand...

Tell me what the Lisbon treaty means for the UK.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please show were Leave meant out with No Deal.
		
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Paul as much as I have the utmost respect for you, what a pathetic question. The vote said leave or remain. Every major politician said they will respect that vote. Then post vote when it went against what most major politicians thought would happen. Cue lots of shuffling and MPs saying we must have a deal. What?

I will put the same question to you. Paste what the Lisbon treaty means to staying in the EU.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Tell me what the Lisbon treaty means for the UK.
		
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Thought so.


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Thought so.
		
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Thought so?
I'm interested what you think it means. 
There is a lot of BS around about it.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Thought so?
I'm interested what you think it means.
There is a lot of BS around about it.
		
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The time you have spent typing it is BS is time you could of posted it.

I am interested why you think the votes of a majority of people should be disregarded. But I know am not gonna get an acceptable answer.


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			The time you have spent typing it is BS is time you could of posted it.

I am interested why you think the votes of a majority of people should be disregarded. But I know am not gonna get an acceptable answer.
		
Click to expand...

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12007L/TXT

There you go,  its to big to fit as text . Which bits concern you.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Paul as much as I have the utmost respect for you, what a pathetic question. The vote said leave or remain. Every major politician said they will respect that vote. Then post vote when it went against what most major politicians thought would happen. Cue lots of shuffling and MPs saying we must have a deal. What?

I will put the same question to you. Paste what the Lisbon treaty means to staying in the EU.
		
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Tashy, letâ€™s not get personal, I voted Leave.
The Leave campaign promised weâ€™d leave with a deal, a deal that protected businessâ€™s and jobs and would bring us prosperity as weâ€™d be free to from the EU chains.
I know exactly what was on the ballot paper, do you expect every ballot paper to cover every scenario when you vote? 
Itâ€™s all too easy for people to say the ballot paper meant one thing or another without backing up what they say.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Can you provide proof its better to leave

Neither of us can
		
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No I can't but I'm not the one saying it's better to stay in. All I'm saying is that I'm willing to take our chances by getting out.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Tashy, letâ€™s not get personal, I voted Leave.
*The Leave campaign promised weâ€™d leave* with a deal, a deal that protected businessâ€™s and jobs and would bring us prosperity as *weâ€™d be free to from the EU chains*.
I know exactly what was on the ballot paper, do you expect every ballot paper to cover every scenario when you vote?
Itâ€™s all too easy for people to say the ballot paper meant one thing or another without backing up what they say.
		
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I've highlighted what I believe was what was promised, I don't remember anyone promising a deal. And the EU are the ones who aren't offering a deal that fits in with the highlighted bit above. If we sign up to what they are currently offering then they still have some element of control over us.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

Three questions early this evening: will BJ re-prorogue for Queens speech & keep his conference? Is opposition plan really just to torment him until Oct31? And if so what will voters conclude ahead of the inevitable election?


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Tashy, letâ€™s not get personal, I voted Leave.
The Leave campaign promised weâ€™d leave with a deal, a deal that protected businessâ€™s and jobs and would bring us prosperity as weâ€™d be free to from the EU chains.
I know exactly what was on the ballot paper, do you expect every ballot paper to cover every scenario when you vote?
Itâ€™s all too easy for people to say the ballot paper meant one thing or another without backing up what they say.
		
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Paul I know all that, but did the Leave party know at that time that politicians of all partys would start playing games. That politicians would vote against the wish of constituents that overwhelmingly voted leave. All of a sudd n every MP has a business degree and " knows what is good for us". Whether leave with a deal or not is still opinion. 
Bottom line is what bogs me off. I don't expect every ballot paper to cover every scenario, governments have broken promises for generations. But there is no way in a thousand years can this group of elected PMs agree on what the deal should be. If that is the case, come October 31st, you have had your 3 years chance. We are out.

PS, love you loads ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜˜


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## PieMan (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			You got to wonder why the EU would want us in (apart from the Money)
		
Click to expand...

That's the key thing. They'd quite happily see us go, but they need our money!

The first internal EU Commission meeting I went to following the referendum result that's all the Member States were asking!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I've highlighted what I believe was what was promised, I don't remember anyone promising a deal. And the EU are the ones who aren't offering a deal that fits in with the highlighted bit above. If we sign up to what they are currently offering then they still have some element of control over us.
		
Click to expand...

Here you go Gordon, the official Leave Campaign leaflet.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please show were Leave meant out with No Deal.
		
Click to expand...

As soon as parliament voted to approve triggering Article 50. Two years to negotiate or leave with no deal.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Paul I know all that, but did the Leave party know at that time that politicians of all partys would start playing games. That politicians would vote against the wish of constituents that overwhelmingly voted leave. All of a sudd n every MP has a business degree and " knows what is good for us". Whether leave with a deal or not is still opinion.
Bottom line is what bogs me off. I don't expect every ballot paper to cover every scenario, governments have broken promises for generations. But there is no way in a thousand years can this group of elected PMs agree on what the deal should be. If that is the case, come October 31st, you have had your 3 years chance. We are out.

PS, love you loads ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜˜
		
Click to expand...

Tashy, in a GE do you vote for a Local MP or the Party? Either way you put your trust in them to hopefully ensure they do whatâ€™s best for the Country.
You get to pick and choose if theyâ€™ve met your standards at the next time the vote comes round.
Unfortunately we havenâ€™t had 3 years of No Deal, weâ€™ve had 2 months, prior to that the emphasis was on a Deal, in fact if you listen to the PM that is still the aim, the No Deal is a threat.
Try and remember only one Party has tried to get a deal and personally I believe we should have a cross party team negotiate our Leave in a sensible time frame, TM failed, the current PM is, in my opinion, lacking any credibility.
Stop mucking about and do a proper deal and letâ€™s leave.

If the PM has done everything in his power to avoid a No Deal (still sceptical) and the EU kick us out, then my anger will be aimed at them, not our MPâ€™s.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			As soon as parliament voted to approve triggering Article 50. Two years to negotiate or leave with no deal.
		
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It didnâ€™t mate, TM was mandated to negotiate a Deal within 2 years, at no time when Art 50 was voted on was the choice Deal or No Deal.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 24, 2019)

Paul, that doesn't say anything about NOT leaving if we can't agree a deal.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It didnâ€™t mate, TM was mandated to negotiate a Deal within 2 years, at no time when Art 50 was voted on was the choice Deal or No Deal.
		
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My understanding is that the two year time period is mandated by Article 50 and wasn't set by TM. Once that was triggered we had two years to negotiate. After that we should have been out with no deal.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Here you go Gordon, the official Leave Campaign leaflet.

View attachment 28262

Click to expand...

That is a campaign poster, not an official document.
The proper information about the vote was what the Government told us it would be.
And Cameron told us, as Prime Minister, in an official document that the
choice, to remain or leave , was ours, to be determined by a referendum , the result of which the Government would honour.
(On top of that, each main party manifesto ( other unofficial documents) promised to abide by the referendum )
But the important thing is what the government said in their document, sent to almost every household, and IIRC, it didn't talk about leaving with a deal.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Here you go Gordon, the official Leave Campaign leaflet.

View attachment 28262

Click to expand...

Why didnâ€™t you make your own mind up? Why did you believe the propaganda? 

With such an important decision, you shouldnâ€™t be believing newspapers, news, leaflets or red busses.


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			The time you have spent typing it is BS is time you could of posted it.

I am interested why you think the votes of a majority of people should be disregarded. But I know am not gonna get an acceptable answer.
		
Click to expand...

I've posted a link to the entire treaty and am awaiting your response .


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			My understanding is that the two year time period is mandated by Article 50 and wasn't set by TM. *Once that was triggered we had two years to negotiate. After that we should have been out with no deal*.
		
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Article 50 does indeed specify a 2 year negotiating period. No Deal applies after that time - unless an extension is agreed.
Are yiu suggesting that the extension is not part of Article 50? (That would be wrong). Or that May should not have asked for an extension? (She had to to attempt to get agreement from Parliament for her 'deal'.). Parliament, which, supposedly, has the final say about laws it has passed, has passed legislation designed to prevent BJ from simply allowing a No Deal by default!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The Government need to take control back by being sensible, look at how much time TM wasted by not talking to others, how much time was wasted by her resigning etc. None of that was down to opposition parties.
		
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I didnâ€™t say it was the oppositions fault.

But itâ€™s a pity these parties donâ€™t cooperate a bit more over domestic stuff and not just Brexit.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Article 50 does indeed specify a 2 year negotiating period. No Deal applies after that time - unless an extension is agreed.
Are yiu suggesting that the extension is not part of Article 50? (That would be wrong). Or that May should not have asked for an extension? (She had to to attempt to get agreement from Parliament for her 'deal'.). Parliament, which, supposedly, has the final say about laws it has passed, has passed legislation designed to prevent BJ from simply allowing a No Deal by default!
		
Click to expand...

I simply meant that no deal was the default option at the end of the two year negotiation period if a deal hadn't been agreed. The extension is still part of Article 50 but the default position remains leaving with no deal if nothing is agreed or we don't have a further extension.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Paul, that doesn't say anything about NOT leaving if we can't agree a deal.
		
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It also states there wonâ€™t be a sudden stop before a deal, whatâ€™s the PM saying about 31st Oct?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please show were Leave meant out with No Deal.
		
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It didnâ€™t say deal either.
It was in or out!
You say you voted leave but donâ€™t want a no deal.
I voted leave but I would like a vote on no deal.
Why wonâ€™t MPs let us have a vote on no deal as they want it off the table before a GE.
Why should they deprive me of a vote on no deal.?


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## Fade and Die (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			So the top legal adviser in the country is completely at odds with our courts.
No wonder we are in a mess.
With legal advice like that itâ€™s a good job it wasnâ€™t something serious.!!!
		
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Not just the Attorney General was wrong, the Supreme Court has said that The Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales , The Master of the Rolls and The President of the Queenâ€™s Bench Division, the 3 highest judges in England were all wrong! 
Canâ€™t really see how Boris is to blame with this much Silk in agreement with him.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



*That is a campaign poster, not an official document.*
The proper information about the vote was what the Government told us it would be.
And Cameron told us, as Prime Minister, in an official document that the
choice, to remain or leave , was ours, to be determined by a referendum , the result of which the Government would honour.
(On top of that, each main party manifesto ( other unofficial documents) promised to abide by the referendum )
But the important thing is what the government said in their document, sent to almost every household, and IIRC, it didn't talk about leaving with a deal.
		
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It is a copy of the official Leave leaflet posted through doors.


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12007L/TXT

There you go,  its to big to fit as text . Which bits concern you.
		
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Just to interrupt the Ping-Pong...

I believe Tashy wanted the bits of the treaty that identify the benefits *to the UK of remaining in the EU to be identified+*, not simply the aims of th EU!


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## Hobbit (Sep 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Not just the Attorney General was wrong, the Supreme Court has said that The Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales , The Master of the Rolls and The President of the Queenâ€™s Bench Division, the 3 highest judges in England were all wrong!
Canâ€™t really see how Boris is to blame with this much Silk in agreement with him.
		
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Which proves, irrespective of right or wrong, that the decision is subjective, and not evidence based. #very surprised...


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Just to interrupt the Ping-Pong...

I believe Tashy wanted the bits of the treaty that identify the benefits *to the UK of remaining in the EU to be identified+*, not simply the aims of th EU!
		
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No... He just repeated the words Lisbon treaty a few times.


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Not just the Attorney General was wrong, the Supreme Court has said that The Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales , The Master of the Rolls and The President of the Queenâ€™s Bench Division, the 3 highest judges in England were all wrong!
Canâ€™t really see how Boris is to blame with this much Silk in agreement with him.
		
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Out of interest, who appointed all of those people to their roles?


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## Old Skier (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Out of interest, who appointed all of those people to their roles?
		
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The Queen


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Not just the Attorney General was wrong, the Supreme Court has said that The Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales , The Master of the Rolls and The President of the Queenâ€™s Bench Division, the 3 highest judges in England were all wrong!
Canâ€™t really see how Boris is to blame with this much Silk in agreement with him.
		
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If these are the three highest judges in England .
How can they be so polar opposite to the eleven judges today.?
The law is supposed to be black and white but looks very grey here.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Not just the Attorney General was wrong, the Supreme Court has said that The Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales , The Master of the Rolls and The President of the Queenâ€™s Bench Division, the 3 highest judges in England were all wrong!
Canâ€™t really see how Boris is to blame with this much Silk in agreement with him.
		
Click to expand...

That, as I am certain you know, is only one half of the story.
The Scottish law courts judged differently and the UK Supreme court judges, all 11 of them,  agreed with the Scottish judges that the government had broken the law.
The law in Scotland is different to the law in England when it comes to sovereignty. England is with Parliament, Scotland is with the people.


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No... He just repeated the words Lisbon treaty a few times.
		
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Read post 13698!

Note. Perhaps a little understanding of the 'Tashy language' might be required! A 'from' after 'paste' in that post might have helped!

Your serve!


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## Tashyboy (Sep 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Just to interrupt the Ping-Pong...

I believe Tashy wanted the bits of the treaty that identify the benefits *to the UK of remaining in the EU to be identified+*, not simply the aims of th EU!
		
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Thankyou foxy ðŸ‘. But it was not just the benefits of being in, but the pitfalls of being stuck in the EU under the rules of the Lisbon treaty


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176569783615217667
Not so funny as 'I fought the Law' but still pretty good.


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...The Scottish law courts judged differently and the UK Supreme court judges, all 11 of them,  agreed with the Scottish judges that the government had *broken the law*.
...
		
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Wrong! That ruled that BJ's action was *unlawful*. Subtle, but important, difference!


Doon frae Troon said:



			...
The law in Scotland is different to the law in England when it comes to sovereignty. England is with Parliament, Scotland is with the people.
		
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Twaddle! You are confusing 'Law' and 'Claim of Rights'/Form of Government!


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Thankyou foxy ðŸ‘. But it was not just the benefits of being in, but the pitfalls of being stuck in the EU under the rules of the Lisbon treaty
		
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I seem to detect some resistance to provide those!  I'd suggest another source - Leave literature perhaps?


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Thankyou foxy ðŸ‘. But it was not just the benefits of being in, but the pitfalls of being stuck in the EU under the rules of the Lisbon treaty
		
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Yes and what are those pitfalls


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## Fade and Die (Sep 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That, as I am certain you know, is only one half of the story.
The Scottish law courts judged differently and the UK Supreme court judges, all 11 of them,  agreed with the Scottish judges that the government had broken the law.
The law in Scotland is different to the law in England when it comes to sovereignty. England is with Parliament, Scotland is with the people.
		
Click to expand...

But as said by others, itâ€™s not black or white, itâ€™s all very subjective. I believe the case hinged on the threat made by one of the QCs that if the SC doesnâ€™t find against the government then what is to stop it being prorogued for 6 months or even a year by some future dictatorship. 

Something is saying to me that itâ€™s all playing into Borisâ€™ hands, come the General Election he will say only he is trying to stand up for the â€œcommon manâ€ everyone else and the establishment cannot be trusted. Outcome....Big Conservative majority. Not saying he planned it that way as I think heâ€™s a Grade A twat but I think he will just play the cards heâ€™s dealt.


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			But as said by others, itâ€™s not black or white, itâ€™s all very subjective. I believe the case hinged on the threat made by one of the QCs that if the SC doesnâ€™t find against the government then what is to stop it being prorogued for 6 months or even a year by some future dictatorship.

Something is saying to me that itâ€™s all playing into Borisâ€™ hands, come the General Election he will say only he is trying to stand up for the â€œcommon manâ€ everyone else and the establishment cannot be trusted. Outcome....Big Conservative majority. Not saying he planned it that way as I think heâ€™s a Grade A twat but I think he will just play the cards heâ€™s dealt.
		
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Or others could say that BJ is not letting the MPs stand up for the common man, and so they are having to go to court to stop him acting against parliament, and therefore the people.
So he canâ€™t be trusted and a vote against him is better so another loss for the tories (after the lost seats under TM).

Itâ€™ll be interesting to see which happens.

But I agree with your BJ rating at grade AðŸ‘


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			You got to wonder why the EU would want us in (apart from the Money)
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176521483855826945


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2019)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156571834255205&id=177564195204

Brexit in a nut shell

Scary people like this out there


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## Fade and Die (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Or others could say that BJ is not letting the MPs stand up for the common man, and so they are having to go to court to stop him acting against parliament, and therefore the people.
So he canâ€™t be trusted and a vote against him is better so another loss for the tories (after the lost seats under TM).

Itâ€™ll be interesting to see which happens.

But I agree with your BJ rating at grade AðŸ‘
		
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Yep plenty of different opinions out there...So letâ€™s have a GE and get the real opinion of the country. Surely everyone is enlightened now so letâ€™s see what the country really want, hard Brexit, Revoke article 50 or some confusing nonsense by the fence sitter?


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156571834255205&id=177564195204

Brexit in a nut shell

Scary people like this out there
		
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H'mm!

Should his vote count any less (or more) than yours or mine? Or those of the Uber drivers (how many did he mention?) he's objecting to!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156571834255205&id=177564195204

Brexit in a nut shell

Scary people like this out there
		
Click to expand...

Let's face it, there are morons on both sides of the argument. You only have to look at the video clip that was posted earlier in this thread of the remain voter who said one of the benefits of being in the EU was the NHS. The idiots aren't only on the leave side.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm!

Should his vote count any less (or more) than yours or mine? Or those of the Uber drivers (how many did he mention?) he's objecting to!
		
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Maybe voting should be limited to certain professions like drs, teachers . Educated people who dont blindly support one way or another


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## spongebob59 (Sep 24, 2019)

Keir Starmer was suggesting opening up a next referendum to 16 and above and any foreign nationals ðŸ˜µ


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Maybe voting should be limited to certain professions like drs, teachers . Educated people who dont blindly support one way or another
		
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And let's ban young people from voting as they don't have enough life experience to make an informed decision. Maybe we should have an IQ test and only those that score over a certain amount will be allowed to vote.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Keir Starmer was suggesting opening up a next referendum to 16 and above and any foreign nationals ðŸ˜µ
		
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Good
16 year olds will have to live with the consequences of this a lot longer than some   many have already passed since the last vote


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## pauljames87 (Sep 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			And let's ban young people from voting as they don't have enough life experience to make an informed decision. Maybe we should have an IQ test and only those that score over a certain amount will be allowed to vote.
		
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That will do  , vote

Then answer these 5 questions. If you get them wrong your vote goes into the shredder


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## Foxholer (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Maybe voting should be limited to certain professions like drs, teachers . Educated people who dont blindly support one way or another
		
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I hope you jest!
Blond haired/Blue eyed/Black shirted?

Yeah..That's Democracy!


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## Hitdaball (Sep 24, 2019)

The vote  shouldnâ€™t have been a tick in a box. It should have been a 1000 word essay on why you wanted to stay or leave. Bin any that just repeated â€œwe want to take back control â€œ  without being able to explain what that means pointing to relevant legislation ðŸ˜†


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## Old Skier (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			That will do  , vote

Then answer these 5 questions. If you get them wrong your vote goes into the shredder
		
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Anyone who would vote for any of the current 650 should be barred from voting ever again.


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## drdel (Sep 24, 2019)

I've posted numerous reasons why the UK needs to get out. 

The EU is racking up debt at a vast rate yet its growth is tanking. At the same time Brussels is taking a bigger slice off the top.

If we remain we'll be soaked for every penny they can squeeze. If you think the last few years have been hard it will be a minor blip compared to the impact of staying in and not growing trade with the world's growing economies.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Thankyou foxy ðŸ‘. But it was not just the benefits of being in, but the pitfalls of being stuck in the EU under the rules of the Lisbon treaty
		
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Can you explain to me please the pitfalls of being in the EU under the Rules of the Lisbon treaty that will affect the UK ? - you keep saying pitfalls etc but what actually are they ?


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## MegaSteve (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Good
16 year olds will have to live with the consequences of this a lot longer than some   many have already passed since the last vote
		
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Perhaps having lived with the consequences of the 1975 vote has provided the reasons for many to vote leave...


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## MegaSteve (Sep 24, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			The vote  shouldnâ€™t have been a tick in a box. It should have been a 1000 word essay on why you wanted to stay or leave. Bin any that just repeated â€œwe want to take back control â€œ  without being able to explain what that means pointing to relevant legislation ðŸ˜†
		
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Why use a thousand words when four will do...

A bureaucracy too many...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Good
16 year olds will have to live with the consequences of this a lot longer than some   many have already passed since the last vote
		
Click to expand...

Open it to under 10s in that case.


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Open it to under 10s in that case.
		
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I donâ€™t think most of them could actually read and understand whatâ€™s written on the ballot paper


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Maybe voting should be limited to certain professions like drs, teachers . Educated people who dont blindly support one way or another
		
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Tell the suffragettes that.
Plus MPs are educated very well but they are the problem not the voters.


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## JamesR (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Tell the suffragettes that.
		
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I think women are now allowed to be drs, teachers and other intellectuals ðŸ‘


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## Hobbit (Sep 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you explain to me please the pitfalls of being in the EU under the Rules of the Lisbon treaty that will affect the UK ? - you keep saying pitfalls etc but what actually are they ?
		
Click to expand...

There was a really good article in The Independent about a year ago saying the the Lisbon Treaty needed scrapping. They agreed with many that the EU needs to reform in some areas but it also went on to say that the economic model for the EU will only work for France, Germany, The Netherlands and the UK. 

I did see a piece elsewhere but I can't remember where which stated that the economic model needed for Southern Europe has to be different than that of Northern Europe. If it isn't, both sides of the model will fail.

I've not seen anything for ages on it, nor can I remember much of the detail, but the consensus across a number of articles was the Treaty is too "one side fits all" to work.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It is a copy of the official Leave leaflet posted through doors. 

Click to expand...

It is from voteleavetakecontrol.org, which is a campaign group. It is not a government communication, which said that a referendum instigated by the government would be held and that the government would implement the result.
it was a government information document issued with implied neutrality, notwithstanding the fact that Cameron himself was/is a remainder.

Which means that the terms of the vote were Remain or Leave. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I think women are now allowed to be drs, teachers and other intellectuals ðŸ‘
		
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And MPs jeez.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 24, 2019)

ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜†


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## MegaSteve (Sep 24, 2019)

Being educated doesn't automatically equate to being wise...


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Being educated doesn't automatically equate to being wise...
		
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Yes I think Boris had a decent education.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			They are not 2 different issues!

The only people that talked about a No Deal scenario was the remain supporters and that was dismissed under project fear.

No talk of No Deal until TM flogged the dead horse.

All of a sudden itâ€™s discussed like itâ€™s the only option, the PM has ran about since August like a bull in a china shop promising all sorts and as yet has failed to deliver anything.

As your so dismissive of my business, let me explain:

We had a vote and remainers (losers as you called them) were told to suck it up and move on as they lost.

Iâ€™m a leaver (winner) and now the leave situation has changed, Iâ€™m now told I donâ€™t matter, am I expected to suck it up and move on?

Youâ€™ve banged on about democracy, but it only sounds like a drum you beat when it suits you personally.
		
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No deal was always an option, when we triggered Article 50 the path it takes us down has No Deal as one of the outcomes: Leave with a deal, Leave without a deal or rescind the article.

You are distorting my previous comments to suit your agenda.  I explained to you that when I used the term 'losers'  it was in the context of the referendum vote when I used it to reference those that lost the vote(which they did) It didnt mean they were 'life losers' as you are trying to corrupt it to. Lets get it right and drop  this silly pretence.

The PM is trying to negotiate a deal but is being hamstrung by many in Parliament because they don't want a deal, they only want to remain and are ignoring the referendum vote but are denying their true intentions. Before you go into your defend Labour mode, once again these are MPs of all parties

Regarding your comments on being a leave voter and who was told to suck it up I fail to follow your logic (if there is any). Yes I bang on about democracy its always a drum I beat and it ALWAYS  suits me.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I donâ€™t think most of them could actually read and understand whatâ€™s written on the ballot paper
		
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I didn't expect anyone to take it serious.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 28263


ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜†
		
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I guess the emojis mean youre not really calling those that voted leave thick racists  ðŸ™„ðŸš®


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It is from voteleavetakecontrol.org, which is a campaign group. It is not a government communication, which said that a referendum instigated by the government would be held and that the government would implement the result.
it was a government information document issued with implied neutrality, notwithstanding the fact that Cameron himself was/is a remainder.

Which means that the terms of the vote were Remain or Leave. Nothing more, nothing less.
		
Click to expand...

Well done on the research, now answer the rest of my point that nobody but remainers mentioned No Deal and that that was dismissed as project fear.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Maybe voting should be limited to certain professions like drs, teachers . Educated people *who dont blindly support one way or another*

Click to expand...

So MPs would not get the vote then.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Well done on the research, now answer the rest of my point that nobody but remainers mentioned No Deal and that that was dismissed as project fear.
		
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Voting to leave the EU meant article 50 would be activated if the vote won.  One of article 50s conclusions is to leave without a deal.  I thought we were all informed of that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No deal was always an option, when we triggered Article 50 the path it takes us down has No Deal as one of the outcomes: Leave with a deal, Leave without a deal or rescind the article.

You are distorting my previous comments to suit your agenda.  *I explained to you that when I used the term 'losers'  it was in the context of the referendum vote when I used it to reference those that lost the vote(which they did) It didnt mean they were 'life losers' as you are trying to corrupt it to*. Lets get it right and drop  this silly pretence.

The PM is trying to negotiate a deal but is being hamstrung by many in Parliament because they don't want a deal, they only want to remain and are ignoring the referendum vote but are denying their true intentions. Before you go into your defend Labour mode, once again these are MPs of all parties

Regarding your comments on being a leave voter and who was told to suck it up I fail to follow your logic (if there is any). Yes I bang on about democracy its always a drum I beat and it ALWAYS  suits me.
		
Click to expand...

Bit in bold, rubbish as you have never answered my post about you using the word losers.

As for failing to follow the logic, you stated youâ€™re not interested in my business when I said as a leave voter I did not want a no deal, therefore Iâ€™m asking you, I want to leave with a deal, shouldnâ€™t I get a further say in how we leave or are my wishes as a leaver being ignored?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Voting to leave the EU meant article 50 would be activated if the vote won.  One of article 50s conclusions is to leave without a deal.  I thought we were all informed of that.
		
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Only one of the conclusions, but not the be all and end all, we can keep negotiating if the EU agrees until Parliament supports a deal.
Why the sudden rush to crash out?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Keir Starmer was suggesting opening up a next referendum to 16 and above and any foreign nationals ðŸ˜µ
		
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#

Jolly good example in following Scotland's lead.
Most 16 year olds are pretty switched on these days.

I had a lengthy conversation with my 13 year old grandson tonight on politics.
He was listening to Corbyn's speech and asked me why he was so different to Johnson.
He was aware that most sensible social benefits like NHS, minimum wage come from Labour governments.
He could not understand why any young person could ever support Johnson and Trump.  Only the angry old red necks vote for them


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Bit in bold, rubbish as you have never answered my post about you using the word losers.

As for failing to follow the logic, you stated youâ€™re not interested in my business when I said as a leave voter I did not want a no deal, therefore Iâ€™m asking you, I want to leave with a deal, shouldnâ€™t I get a further say in how we leave or are my wishes as a leaver being ignored?
		
Click to expand...

Yes you should get a say and you voted to leave.
What about a leaver who wants no deal are their wishes being ignored.
We need a deal or no deal tie break.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes you should get a say and you voted to leave.
What about a leaver who wants no deal are their wishes being ignored.
We need a deal or no deal tie break.
		
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Said that weeks ago that the only referendum (if we had another one) should be deal or no deal, either, but definitely out.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Bit in bold, rubbish as you have never answered my post about you using the word losers.

As for failing to follow the logic, you stated youâ€™re not interested in my business when I said as a leave voter I did not want a no deal, therefore Iâ€™m asking you, I want to leave with a deal, shouldnâ€™t I get a further say in how we leave or are my wishes as a leaver being ignored?
		
Click to expand...

This is the second time i have explained it but whats the point if you just stick your fingers in your ears and scream La la la la 
la.

Hardly anyone wants a no deal, most of us want a good deal but you won't get one with no deal off the table.   

I dont control what say you have or whether your wishes get ignored, im just another saddo like you posting politics on a golf forum.  Ill tell you what, if my posts are so annoying to you then put me on your ignore list, simple!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

Sat here thinking did Ireland go through all this crap before their second referendum.

It would sort the backstop issue out if they had a decider best of three and voted to leave with us.
Been a long day .


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Bit in bold, rubbish as you have never answered my post about you using the word losers.

As for failing to follow the logic, you stated youâ€™re not interested in my business when I said as a leave voter I did not want a no deal, therefore Iâ€™m asking you, I want to leave with a deal, shouldnâ€™t I get a further say in how we leave or are my wishes as a leaver being ignored?
		
Click to expand...

I donâ€™t think you actually voted leave. Iâ€™m calling shenanigans on that.  

You couldnâ€™t possibly of believed a propaganda leaflet that came through your door, and based your vote upon that. 

You seem an intelligent man, but to base your vote on what was written  on essentially spam mail was pretty daft. Did you take the red bus literally as well?


----------



## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2019)

The EU are the problem!
They canâ€™t give us a good deal because everyone will want one and their project will blow up.
If no deal is off the table they can offer us diddly squat and we have no comeback.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Only one of the conclusions, but not the be all and end all, we can keep negotiating if the EU agrees until Parliament supports a deal.
Why the sudden rush to crash out?
		
Click to expand...

The can has been kicked down the road too long already, what's going to change by kicking it further.  Unless a date is set for us to leave with no deal as a real option the EU will sit back and let our MPs tear each other apart and the public lose the will to live.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			I donâ€™t think you actually voted leave. Iâ€™m calling shenanigans on that. 

You couldnâ€™t possibly of believed a propaganda leaflet that came through your door, and based your vote upon that.

You seem an intelligent man, but to base your vote on what was written  on essentially spam mail was pretty daft. Did you take the red bus literally as well?
		
Click to expand...

As stated in previous posts, I did my own research through various sources, from all sides over a decent period, at the end of the day I believed, and still do, that we should leave the EU.
One of the main points for me was that the UK would not suddenly leave overnight without everything in place (were possible) to avoid the worst case scenario.

Happy to admit Iâ€™m a Labour supporter, happy to admit I put my faith in TM getting the negotiations right, unfortunately (and too simplistic for some) I blame this mess squarely on the shoulders of Cameron and May.
Johnson I simply donâ€™t trust, great if he gets a deal, but I fear the worst under a No Deal.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			As stated in previous posts, I did my own research through various sources, from all sides over a decent period, at the end of the day I believed, and still do, that we should leave the EU.
One of the main points for me was that the UK would not suddenly leave overnight without everything in place (were possible) to avoid the worst case scenario.

Happy to admit Iâ€™m a Labour supporter, happy to admit I put my faith in TM getting the negotiations right, unfortunately (and too simplistic for some) I blame this mess squarely on the shoulders of Cameron and May.
Johnson I simply donâ€™t trust, great if he gets a deal, but I fear the worst under a No Deal.
		
Click to expand...

I can go along with that other than your no deal concerns.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The can has been kicked down the road too long already, what's going to change by kicking it further.  Unless a date is set for us to leave the EU will sit back and let our MPs tear each other apart and the public lose the will to live.
		
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For the last time:
Set up a cross party negotiating team agreed by Parliament.

Give them a set time (6 months) to bring a deal back.

At the same time, publicly and openly prepare for no deal.

Bring in laws that stops profiteering off No Deal.

Can you honestly tell me why you think the PM can get a deal in 6 weeks that couldnâ€™t be done in 2 years, and please donâ€™t use the No Deal threat as the excuse.


----------



## Jamesbrown (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			As stated in previous posts, I did my own research through various sources, from all sides over a decent period, at the end of the day I believed, and still do, that we should leave the EU.
One of the main points for me was that the UK would not suddenly leave overnight without everything in place (were possible) to avoid the worst case scenario.

Happy to admit Iâ€™m a Labour supporter, happy to admit I put my faith in TM getting the negotiations right, unfortunately (and too simplistic for some) I blame this mess squarely on the shoulders of Cameron and May.
Johnson I simply donâ€™t trust, great if he gets a deal, but I fear the worst under a No Deal.
		
Click to expand...

I rescind the shenanigans.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2019)

Cross party talks were a disaster, labour and others wanted a complete surrender deal where we stay in a customs union and the single market, this means staying in the EU with no say in how its run.  How can parties with such diverse aims negotiate together.

My opinion is that if the EU believe we will leave on a given date with no deal unless they are prepared to soften on items like the backstop they will start negotiating in earnest.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Cross party talks were a disaster, labour and others wanted a complete surrender deal where we stay in a customs union and the single market, this means staying in the EU with no say in how its run.  How can parties with such diverse aims negotiate together.

My opinion is that if the EU believe we will leave on a given date with no deal unless they are prepared to soften on items like the backstop they will start negotiating in earnest.
		
Click to expand...

What we had previously was Labour trying to tweak TMâ€™s deal, neither they or any other party were involved in actual negotiations with the EU.

The problem with getting the EU to soften  their stance is the PM is doing it with threats and bluff, were have these options suddenly appeared from, and again why the rush, look at how much time the tories have wasted since TM decided to stand down, boris could of come in, recognised how much time if the extension heâ€™d lost, asked the EU for that period back as a short extension and negotiated in a calm sensible manner, but instead he based his leadership campaign and now his current position on being out by 31 Oct come what may, thatâ€™s not very statesman like for me and says his interests are in himself.


----------



## Hobbit (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			For the last time:
Set up a cross party negotiating team agreed by Parliament.

Give them a set time (6 months) to bring a deal back.

At the same time, publicly and openly prepare for no deal.

Bring in laws that stops profiteering off No Deal.

Can you honestly tell me why you think the PM can get a deal in 6 weeks that couldnâ€™t be done in 2 years, and please donâ€™t use the No Deal threat as the excuse.
		
Click to expand...

A cross party team was set up, led by Hilary Benn. However, from very early in its inception it was obvious it was Remain led, with a Remain majority.

BTW, around post 13775 you asked SR to explain his losers comment. Read post 13769, in which he very clearly and eloquently explains it.


----------



## JamesR (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Only one of the conclusions, but not the be all and end all, we can keep negotiating if the EU agrees until Parliament supports a deal.
Why the sudden rush to crash out?
		
Click to expand...

Or if it is decided by parliament that leaving is the wrong course of action, for the country, revoking article 50 & remaining is an option.


----------



## Beezerk (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Said that weeks ago that the only referendum (if we had another one) should be deal or no deal, either, but definitely out.
		
Click to expand...

Would that be a binding referendum though?
The original Gina Miller case IIRC said any decision needed the backing of the commons, and even if No Deal were to win another referendum it would never get through the house.
Am I right or wrong in that assumption?
Going on a slight tangent, the best deal in the world would get voted down as well...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 25, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176465397094264832
Idiotic Lib Dem MP thinks people have extremely short memories.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess the emojis mean youre not really calling those that voted leave thick racists  ðŸ™„ðŸš®
		
Click to expand...

Get a grip of yourself - it wasnâ€™t so long ago that you were making light jokes about stuff in regards Brexit and anyone who didnâ€™t take it as a joke or was offended was immediately called a â€œsnowflakeâ€.

Itâ€™s just a joke - not a big a joke as this whole process but it isnâ€™t helped with hypocrites like yourself


----------



## Hobbit (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What we had previously was Labour trying to tweak TMâ€™s deal, neither they or any other party were involved in actual negotiations with the EU.

The problem with getting the EU to soften  their stance is the PM is doing it with threats and bluff, were have these options suddenly appeared from, and again why the rush, look at how much time the tories have wasted since TM decided to stand down, boris could of come in, recognised how much time if the extension heâ€™d lost, asked the EU for that period back as a short extension and negotiated in a calm sensible manner, but instead he based his leadership campaign and now his current position on being out by 31 Oct come what may, thatâ€™s not very statesman like for me and says his interests are in himself.
		
Click to expand...

Have a read of the threats and bluff coming out of the EU. Its 6 and two 3's.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Or if it is decided by parliament that leaving is the wrong course of action, for the country, revoking article 50 & remaining is an option.
		
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I donâ€™t agree with remaining as an option, we voted to leave.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Have a read of the threats and bluff coming out of the EU. Its 6 and two 3's.
		
Click to expand...

I donâ€™t believe the EU could ever be fully trusted as they are looking after their own interests, the PM is looking after his own imo.


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Would that be a binding referendum though?
The original Gina Miller case IIRC said any decision needed the backing of the commons, and even if No Deal were to win another referendum it would never get through the house.
Am I right or wrong in that assumption?
Going on a slight tangent, the best deal in the world would get voted down as well...
		
Click to expand...

That wasn't actually the argument/ruling (it was that laws made by Parliament could only be repealed by Parliament), but the effect is/was the same.
And I'm inclined to agree about 'the best deal...'. At least in THIS parliament!
And, indeed, the only way a referendum is going to _really_ get Leave through is to make it a binding one! And go that way of course!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A cross party team was set up, led by Hilary Benn. However, from very early in its inception it was obvious it was Remain led, with a Remain majority.

BTW, around post 13775 you asked SR to explain his losers comment. Read post 13769, in which he very clearly and eloquently explains it.
		
Click to expand...

The cross party team had no authority, it needs a Parliament backed team to go to the EU (in my fantasy land)

As for SRâ€™s Loser comment my reply goes back to 9th Sept when I picked him up on using the term losers (Post #12874) he then asked me to show proof or retract my post (Post #12890) so I did, I posted the following quote from him.

Post #12833, 
â€œLeavers won and the Losers are inventing ways to make it seem they lost.â€

Until last night he had not replied to me showing the evidence.


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Cross party talks were a disaster, labour and others wanted a complete surrender deal where we stay in a customs union and the single market, this means staying in the EU with no say in how its run.  How can parties with such diverse aims negotiate together.

My opinion is that if the EU believe we will leave on a given date with no deal unless they are prepared to soften on items like the backstop they will start negotiating in earnest.
		
Click to expand...

I agree!

Though a form of deal where the desirable (to UK) parts of CU/SM, without the 'undesirable' ones - in effect an instant Free Trade agreement and 3 of the 4 Freedoms (dropping FofMvntofPeople) - would, imo, be fine. Getting opposition parties to agree to that, however, would be difficult as the entire issues provides the opportunity to 'bring the government down'!


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The cross party team had no authority, it needs a Parliament backed team tod go to the EU (in my fantasy land)

As for SRâ€™s Loser comment my reply goes back to 9th Sept when I picked him up on using the term losers (Post #12874) he then asked me to show proof or retract my post (Post #12890) so I did, I posted the following quote from him.

Post #12833,
*"Leavers won and the Losers are inventing ways to make it seem they lost.â€*.

Until last night he had not replied to me showing the evidence.
		
Click to expand...

Its just beeen pointed out to you that I gave you an explanation, I have now given you one twice but you just won't acknowledge it.   For the third and final time, the use of 'losers' was used in the context of losing the referendum and not losers in life.  If you can't accept that then you are being purposely obtuse and making trouble.  Just drop it as you're making yourself look silly.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its just beeen pointed out to you that I gave you an explanation, I have now given you one twice but you just won't acknowledge it.   For the third and final time, the use of 'losers' was used in the context of losing the referendum and not losers in life.  If you can't accept that then you are being purposely obtuse and making trouble.  Just drop it as you're making yourself look silly.
		
Click to expand...

You didnâ€™t give an explanation at the time, in fact you never responded to it, check it out.
But I never ever said you meant losers in life, my initial point in picking you up was that was a term you used to describe remainers in the referendum after complaining about others using childish and lazy insults.


----------



## JamesR (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t agree with remaining as an option, we voted to leave.
		
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If, hypothetically, a remain party/coalition became the next government (on the back of a remain/revoke art 50 manifesto), would the people have then voted to remain. Thus overruling the (non-binding) referendum?


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			If, hypothetically, a remain party/coalition became the next government (on the back of a remain/revoke art 50 manifesto), would the people have then voted to remain. Thus overruling the (non-binding) referendum?
		
Click to expand...

Weâ€™ll just go best of 3.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You didnâ€™t give an explanation at the time, in fact you never responded to it, check it out.
But I never ever said you meant losers in life, my initial point in picking you up was that was a term you used to describe remainers in the referendum after complaining about others using childish and lazy insults.
		
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Another twist and turn. Admit it you're just not going to admit you made a mistake. Of course it was a term to describe the 'losing' vote.  If I said Wales were the 'losers' in a rugby match against Ireland would it be a lazy insult, would it be a slant against Welsh people? Of course it wouldn't.   Just give up on this one before you start to look really silly.


----------



## oxymoron (Sep 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Bad loser eh.
Dry your eyes mate.
		
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Dry my eyes ? You seem to be the main antagonist on here who will not accept any referendum result whether its for Scottish independence or leaving the EU ,
I think you need to take a long hard look at yourself , bad loser ? i voted leave so not sure i am considered a loser just a frustrated voter .


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another twist and turn. Admit it you're just not going to admit you made a mistake. Of course it was a term to describe the 'losing' vote.  If I said Wales were the 'losers' in a rugby match against Ireland would it be a lazy insult, would it be a slant against Welsh people? Of course it wouldn't.   Just give up on this one before you start to look silly.
		
Click to expand...

It wasnâ€™t the first time you used it, all this happened on 9/10th September, itâ€™s now the 25th, why not all this harassment of me then?
You asked for a retraction or proof, I supplied proof, *YOU IGNORED IT AND NEVER RESPONDED TO THAT PROOF*.

You keep saying Iâ€™m starting to look silly, I wasnâ€™t the one who demanded a retraction or proof and when proof was presented ran away with my tail between my legs.

Please move on or at least wait another 2 weeks to drag it up again!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 25, 2019)

Boris Johnson disagrees with the decision of  all of the 11 [YES ELEVEN] Supreme Court judges.
Not one agreed with him.
His arrogance knows no bounds.
His plans are in total disarray as he cannot ask his staff, ministers, MP's or for that reason anyone to break the law.


----------



## jp5 (Sep 25, 2019)

Fair play to Iain Dale on the below. If there were more of his ilk on the Brexit side I suspect we would have made more progress by now.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176785480551215104


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## spongebob59 (Sep 25, 2019)

Can't disagree with you on that JP5 ðŸ‘


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 25, 2019)

Apart from a lot of huffing and puffing and posturing today are we expecting anything tangible to happen? I haven't followed the news this morning so I don't know what is being talked about.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Apart from a lot of huffing and puffing and posturing today are we expecting anything tangible to happen? I haven't followed the news this morning so I don't know what is being talked about.
		
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Straight in to recess for the tory conference and promises that every hour from then on the PM will be focussed in to getting us a deal to leave with on 31 Oct.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Straight in to recess for the tory conference and promises that every hour from then on the PM will be focussed in to getting us a deal to leave with on 31 Oct.
		
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BBC were reporting this morning that Corbyn and Labour would vote against a recess for the Tory conference.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Straight in to recess for the tory conference and promises that every hour from then on the PM will be focussed in to getting us a deal to leave with on 31 Oct.
		
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So have they come in today just to be told they are going to close for the rest of the conference season?


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## Old Skier (Sep 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 28263


ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜†
		
Click to expand...

Fit both sides, anyone who can't see it are already wearing them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			BBC were reporting this morning that Corbyn and Labour would vote against a recess for the Tory conference.
		
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Different noises from different parts of the party, Diane Abbott on Sky this morning suggested it was only fair play to allow the tories to hold their conference.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Different noises from different parts of the party, Diane Abbott on Sky this morning suggested it was only fair play to allow the tories to hold their conference.
		
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It would be a cheap shot to do otherwise so I am pleased she came out with that. It would also be damaging economically for Manchester, the host, for a whole host of rooms to be cancelled plus everything else that comes with it. That would be bad PR for Labour.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It would be a cheap shot to do otherwise so I am pleased she came out with that. It would also be damaging economically for Manchester, the host, for a whole host of rooms to be cancelled plus everything else that comes with it. That would be bad PR for Labour.
		
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Agreed, a lot businessâ€™s will have ordered stock etc, pubs, restaurants and the like.


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## Old Skier (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Different noises from different parts of the party, Diane Abbott on Sky this morning suggested it was only fair play to allow the tories to hold their conference.
		
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Fair play, we are talking politics now rant we. I would put an imoji in but the task bar is all greyed out


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## Old Skier (Sep 25, 2019)

Not a fan of Geoffrey Cox MP but in his Roll as Atorney General he is tying the opposition in knots.


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## ger147 (Sep 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not a fan of Geoffrey Cox MP but in his Roll as Atorney General he is tying the opposition in knots.
		
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He's just had a mega rant/mini melt down at the despatch box which demonstrates outlining why the AG job is so tricky i.e. part impartial legal advisor, part politician. Very tricky tight rope to walk...


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## Piece (Sep 25, 2019)

I thought the House would be rammed after the last few weeks. But itâ€™s not. Empty seats.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 25, 2019)

Lord Sumption on 
@BBCr4today
 agrees the Supreme Court acted in a â€œrevolutionaryâ€ manner and â€œinventedâ€ a new law. Attempts to justify it on basis of Government behaviour but completely ignores the appalling behaviour of this rotten Parliament.


----------



## spongebob59 (Sep 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not a fan of Geoffrey Cox MP but in his Roll as Atorney General he is tying the opposition in knots.
		
Click to expand...

This Parliament is a dead Parliament... This Parliament is a disgrace"  Attorney General Geoffrey Cox accuses MPs of being "too cowardly" to table a vote no confidence and trigger a general election

Both barrells and more :

https://order-order.com/2019/09/25/cox-parliament-disgrace/


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 25, 2019)

Piece said:



			I thought the House would be rammed after the last few weeks. But itâ€™s not. Empty seats. 

Click to expand...

Guess they must have booked their holiday with Thomas Cook


----------



## spongebob59 (Sep 25, 2019)

Ooh. Attorney General tells 
@NickBoles
 government will abide by Benn Act which would force 
@BorisJohnson
 to ask for Brexit delay if he canâ€™t get a deal through parliament. Unambiguous. So is that Johnsonâ€™s and Cummingsâ€™s position too? If so no-deal on 31 Oct would seem to be dead 
And if that can be shown to be demonstrably true, will 
@jeremycorbyn
 and 
@NicolaSturgeon
 now prepare to give 
@BorisJohnson
 what he wants, namely a general election?


----------



## User62651 (Sep 25, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Ooh. Attorney General tells
@NickBoles
government will abide by Benn Act which would force
@BorisJohnson
to ask for Brexit delay if he canâ€™t get a deal through parliament. Unambiguous. So is that Johnsonâ€™s and Cummingsâ€™s position too? If so no-deal on 31 Oct would seem to be dead
And if that can be shown to be demonstrably true, will
@jeremycorbyn
and
@NicolaSturgeon
now prepare to give
@BorisJohnson
what he wants, namely a general election?
		
Click to expand...

Nah, let Johnson stew in his own mess, man told us all he could and would do but turns out he cant do any of it, talked the talk but can't walk the walk. Many of us knew it, Hunt would've been a far better choice.

Hopefully other wannabee PMs will see the mess BJ is in and realise the job of PM is far beyond most of them. Bluster and BS will only get you so far.

Attorney General is a big mouth, loves the sound of his own voice. Advised PM really badly (even Farage agrees) and trying to minimise the damage to his own reputation with lots of shouting. Doesn't change anything.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It wasnâ€™t the first time you used it, all this happened on 9/10th September, itâ€™s now the 25th, why not all this harassment of me then?
You asked for a retraction or proof, I supplied proof, *YOU IGNORED IT AND NEVER RESPONDED TO THAT PROOF*.

You keep saying Iâ€™m starting to look silly, I wasnâ€™t the one who demanded a retraction or proof and when proof was presented ran away with my tail between my legs.

Please move on or at least wait another 2 weeks to drag it up again!
		
Click to expand...

I give up. You are the one that keeps dragging it up, I have no reason to 
You were just wrong in your accusation so why keep on repeating your error.  I dont go trawling through every post, every day in case someone asked me a question, you are just being unreasonable and looking to justify your outlandish condemnation.


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...

As for SRâ€™s Loser comment my reply goes back to 9th Sept when I picked him up on using the term losers (Post #12874) he then asked me to show proof or retract my post (Post #12890) so I did, I posted the following quote from him.

Post #12833,
â€œLeavers won and the Losers are inventing ways to make it seem they lost.â€

Until last night he had not replied to me showing the evidence.
		
Click to expand...

IMO, You are (deliberately?) misinterpreting the tone of SR's post!

Btw. I was one of those 'Losers'.


----------



## IanM (Sep 25, 2019)

Which actual law was broken?  

EU Article 2034u85334/234  - "Resistance to 4th Reich is not permitted!"


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Different noises from different parts of the party, Diane Abbott on Sky this morning suggested it was only fair play to allow the tories to hold their conference.
		
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Lib Dems now saying that they will vote against a recess for the Tory conference.


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Not a fan of Geoffrey Cox MP but in his Roll as Atorney General he is tying the opposition in knots.
		
Click to expand...

And what a fabulous voice!


----------



## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2019)

JamesR said:



			If, hypothetically, a remain party/coalition became the next government (on the back of a remain/revoke art 50 manifesto), would the people have then voted to remain. Thus overruling the (non-binding) referendum?
		
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Thatâ€™s a big problem imo .
As people have not seen the referendum result enacted.
But the answer is yes I think so.


----------



## Beezerk (Sep 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Lib Dems now saying that they will vote against a recess for the Tory conference.
		
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They're going bonkers with a sniff of power, conceited and out of touch.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Fit both sides, anyone who can't see it are already wearing them.
		
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One thing I CAN SEE is the Â£72 Billion .


----------



## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And what a fabulous voice![/
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			Not a fan of Geoffrey Cox MP but in his Roll as Atorney General he is tying the opposition in knots.
		
Click to expand...

yes and he advised Boris the  prorugation was legal.


----------



## spongebob59 (Sep 25, 2019)

Spot on :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176653868467400704


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 25, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Ooh. Attorney General tells
@NickBoles
government will abide by Benn Act which would force
@BorisJohnson
to ask for Brexit delay if he canâ€™t get a deal through parliament. Unambiguous. So is that Johnsonâ€™s and Cummingsâ€™s position too? If so no-deal on 31 Oct would seem to be dead
And if that can be shown to be demonstrably true, will
@jeremycorbyn
and
@NicolaSturgeon
now prepare to give
@BorisJohnson
what he wants, namely a general election?
		
Click to expand...

The trouble with that scenario is that no sensible person in the UK would trust this Tory government with anything at all.
They just constantly lie about virtually everything.
Really funny to see the sheer desperation on their faces as they haplessly attempt to goad the opposition into calling an election.
Very sad reflection on our times.
GE coming soon and, with the opposition parties now in charge of the process, they will set the date.

BTW if the Attorney General was any good at his job he would be nowhere near the HoC.


----------



## Hitdaball (Sep 25, 2019)

That is true but as incompetent and untrustworthy as the Tories are under Depfeffel they will still likely win voted in by turkeys looking forward to Xmas . Scary times.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 25, 2019)

Goodness that escalated quickly, we now have African nations threatening to suspend the UK from the Commonwealth if the UK Government continues the ignore the rule of law.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Sep 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness that escalated quickly, we now have African nations threatening to suspend the UK from the Commonwealth if the UK Government continues the ignore the rule of law. 

Click to expand...

ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸

Why the shocked face ? The UK isnâ€™t going to be suspended from the commonwealth- itâ€™s more embarrassing that you think itâ€™s newsworthy

And it hasnâ€™t â€œescalatedâ€ quickly - Nigeria has been making noises for while 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world...ommonwealth-should-investigate-uk-over-brexit


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## Old Skier (Sep 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			yes and he advised Boris the  prorugation was legal.
		
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And a number of well paid and knowledgeable judges agreed with him.


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## Old Skier (Sep 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness that escalated quickly, we now have African nations threatening to suspend the UK from the Commonwealth if the UK Government continues the ignore the rule of law. 

Click to expand...

Nigeria a country permanently under political turmoil, anymore gems you want to throw out there.


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## Old Skier (Sep 25, 2019)

Well Parliament is back up and running and going over the same old same old on Brexit. Great use of the time they were so desperate to have.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸

Why the shocked face ? The UK isnâ€™t going to be suspended from the commonwealth- itâ€™s more embarrassing that you think itâ€™s newsworthy

And it hasnâ€™t â€œescalatedâ€ quickly - Nigeria has been making noises for while

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world...ommonwealth-should-investigate-uk-over-brexit

Click to expand...

Well it is in the news so it must be 'newsworthy'.
Unlike you I did not realise it had been in the news for a couple of weeks though.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And a number of well paid and knowledgeable judges agreed with him.
		
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Yes that does need explaining in my opinion.
How can three senior judges say itâ€™s none of the courts business !
Then eleven to none say itâ€™s illegal.

Have they actually said what law was broken?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well it is in the news so it must be 'newsworthy'.
Unlike you I did not realise it had been in the news for a couple of weeks though.

Click to expand...

It would actually help if you quantify the statement, provide some background , add some substance, even add the link to the news report you saw instead of just posting like a red top rag with a â€œcatching headlineâ€ .

Because clearly if you drill into it then the â€œheadlineâ€ is very weak indeed and just the work of someone looking to stir things up - sound about right ?


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## ger147 (Sep 25, 2019)

Boris up at 6:30pm, this should be a good laff...


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## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes that does need explaining in my opinion.
How can three senior judges say itâ€™s none of the courts business !
Then eleven to none say itâ€™s illegal.

Have they actually said what law was broken?
		
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There was no law 'broken'!
The ruling was that that proroguing Parliament as he did was 'unlawful'. A subtle, but important difference.

Breaking a law is doing something you are specifically not allowed to do. Doing something that is 'unlawful' requires a judgement that you are 'not allowed to do that'.
Having provided that judgement, a 'Principle' has been established/reinforced, but no new law. It is, after all, only Parliament that can create Laws! It's the role of the courts to rule and interpret, from submissions from solicitors/barristers, those laws.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 25, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Boris up at 6:30pm, this should be a good laff...
		
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Jeremy doesn't think so. Not now the gauntlet has been thrown down in front of him


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## ger147 (Sep 25, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Jeremy doesn't think so. Not now the gauntlet has been thrown down in front of him
		
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Corbyn is useless at the despatch box in these moments of high drama IMO. If he wants Boris to resign he should ask for a lift to the job centre...


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			There was no law 'broken'!
The ruling was that that proroguing Parliament as he did was 'unlawful'. A subtle, but important difference.

Breaking a law is doing something you are specifically not allowed to do. Doing something that is 'unlawful' requires a judgement that you are 'not allowed to do that'.
Having provided that judgement, a 'Principle' has been established/reinforced, but no new law. It is, after all, only Parliament that can create Laws! It's the role of the courts to rule and interpret, from submissions from solicitors/barristers, those laws.
		
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Thanks for the explanation.
But I must say thatâ€™s a very grey area for judges to sit on .
They could rule something unlawful even though there is no law to break.
Politics is a dirty game but I thought the law was black and white, 

Can Boris just do it again after all can there be any punishment if you are not breaking any laws.?


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2019)

According to Andrew Neil nothing can be done until 17th October when the Benn bill becomes law.
So a no confidence vote wonâ€™t happen until then or later.

So why all the court case and shouting about prorouging ,when they are not going to do anything in the chamber except insult each other until then.

I can hear the EU laughing .


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Jeremy doesn't think so. Not now the gauntlet has been thrown down in front of him
		
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What I donâ€™t like about this is Jeremy wonâ€™t have a GE now because he thinks it favours Boris.
But he wants to wait until it suits Him after calling for one for years.

What gives the opposition in the Hoc the right to exclude my right to vote for a NO DEAL IN THE GE.


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## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			...Thanks for the explanation.
But I must say thatâ€™s a very grey area for judges to sit on .
They could rule something unlawful even though there is no law to break.
Politics is a dirty game but I thought the law was black and white,

Can Boris just do it again after all can there be any punishment if you are not breaking any laws.?
		
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Well, I believe the procedure reads along the lines of 'The PM may advise HM The Queen to prorogue Parliament for the purpose of...' and it was that 'for the purpose of' that was the point of contention. Preventing Patliament from performing its constitutional duties is not one of those purposes!

Give that  it's The Queen that actually does the prorogation, I believe she would take advice and decline - up to the 'normal' period before Queen's Speech.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 25, 2019)

Johnson is behaving disgracefully in the HoC. 
Really showing himself up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			According to Andrew Neil nothing can be done until 17th October when the Benn bill becomes law.
So a no confidence vote wonâ€™t happen until then or later.

So why all the court case and shouting about prorouging ,when they are not going to do anything in the chamber except insult each other until then.

I can hear the EU laughing .
		
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It's posturing and point scoring. Pretty pathetic and not endearing themselves to the public.  

MPs really should record and watch back how they look in the HoC and watch it with people not involved. They live in a bubble and don't seem to realise how bad it all looks.


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## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			According to Andrew Neil nothing can be done until 17th October when the Benn bill becomes law.
So a no confidence vote wonâ€™t happen until then or later.

So why all the court case and shouting about prorouging ,when they are not going to do anything in the chamber except insult each other until then.

I can hear the EU laughing .
		
Click to expand...

Neil was probably specifically refering to Brexit legislation! There's still plenty of other work to be done by/in Parliament!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Well, I believe the procedure reads along the lines of 'The PM may advise HM The Queen to prorogue Parliament for the purpose of...' and it was that 'for the purpose of' that was the point of contention. Preventing Patliament from performing its constitutional duties is not one of those purposes!

Give that  it's The Queen that actually does the prorogation, I believe she would take advice and decline - up to the 'normal' period before Queen's Speech.
		
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It does seem very odd though as Boris is just relaying advice from the legal eagles in his government to the Queen.
You would think they could see this coming.
Or they were just trying it on.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Neil was probably specifically refering to Brexit legislation! There's still plenty of other ork to be done by/in Parliament!
		
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Yes that is when we canâ€™t leave with no deal.
That should be up to us to decide though in an election not the opposition in hoc.

But I really canâ€™t see them getting anything else done until Brexit is sorted.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			IMO, You are (deliberately?) misinterpreting the tone of SR's post!

Btw. I was one of those 'Losers'.
		
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Foxholer said:



			That may, or may not be true. But your challenge was answered with an instance that satisfied your demand! Therefore...challenge proven (or 'satisfied')!
		
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Make your mind up eh!
On the 10th September you agreed Iâ€™d proved my point, now Iâ€™m accused by you of deliberately misinterpreting his post.

I was never confused, the ONLY point I made was that he called remainers losers and not for the first time.


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## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			It does seem very odd though as Boris is just relaying advice from the legal eagles in his government to the Queen.
You would think they could see this coming.
Or they were just trying it on.
		
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Well, it has been done a couple of times before!

And the advice he received was (supposedly!) that it was ok to do so.

Bur the unanimous decision of The Supreme Court was indeed that he was simply trying it on!


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## Beezerk (Sep 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's posturing and point scoring. Pretty pathetic and not endearing themselves to the public. 

MPs really should record and watch back how they look in the HoC and watch it with people not involved. They live in a bubble and don't seem to realise how bad it all looks.
		
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I've just been transfixed watching it in my hotel room for the last hour, it cost me an hour's drinking time at the bar ðŸ˜ 
Absolutely superb entertainment, they are like a bunch of spoilt school children shaking their heads theatrically and making all sorts of odd sounds. Unbelievable stuff.

Surrender bill...I haven't laughed so much at politics in years ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## JamesR (Sep 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Neil was probably specifically refering to Brexit legislation! There's still plenty of other work to be done by/in Parliament!
		
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Apparently not...only Brexit exists/matters.
The bills that were going through Parliament before such as the domestic abuse bill, for example. Seems to be left as important Brexit ðŸ¤·ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤·â€â™€ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™€ï¸


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## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Make your mind up eh!
On the 10th September you agreed Iâ€™d proved my point, now Iâ€™m accused by you of deliberately misinterpreting his post.

I was never confused, the ONLY point I made was that he called remainers losers and not for the first time.
		
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Just give up on this as you are making yourself look silly. You are wrong and others have explained that to you.  Just let it go now.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes that does need explaining in my opinion.
How can three senior judges say itâ€™s none of the courts business !
Then eleven to none say itâ€™s illegal.

Have they actually said what law was broken?
		
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The 3 judges at the English â€œtrialâ€ are all more senior than any of the 11 Supreme Ct judges... makes you wonder doesnâ€™t it?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Well, it has been done a couple of times before!

And the advice he received was (supposedly!) that it was ok to do so.

Bur the unanimous decision of The Supreme Court was indeed that he was simply trying it on!
		
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What seems wrong to me is that it appears the Supreme Court has created a new law when their role is to interpret laws.  I may well be wrong here but isn't it parliaments job to create laws.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Just give up on this as you are making yourself look silly. You are wrong and others have explained that to you.  Just let it go now.
		
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Amazing you can answer posts directed to others but not those in direct response to you. 

Personally I believe itâ€™s only good manners to answer a post when in reply to me, if you donâ€™t want a response, donâ€™t quote me.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Amazing you can answer posts directed to others but not those in direct response to you. 

Personally I believe itâ€™s only good manners to answer a post when in reply to me, if you donâ€™t want a response, donâ€™t quote me.
		
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I have no further comment for you as its a waste of time replying.


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## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



*Make your mind up eh!*
On the 10th September you agreed Iâ€™d proved my point, now Iâ€™m accused by you of deliberately misinterpreting his post.

I was never confused, the ONLY point I made was that he called remainers losers and not for the first time.
		
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Re the bold bit...Twaddle! I've been consistent!
You have (deliberately?) (mis)interpreted that post too!
My '*Challenge *(not 'point'!) proven' was simply that! No interpretation of either your nor SR's meaning involved! And that was confirmed in a subsequent reply to SR, where he explained what he meant by 'losers' in that post - which I accept, but you don't seem to!

FWIW. Remain voters (me among them) lost; therefore they/we were/are losers! If you wish to (mis!)interpret that, then there's no hope for an end to this complete waste of time! I have no further comment for you.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Re the bold bit...Twaddle! I've been consistent!
You have (deliberately?) (mis)interpreted that post too!
My '*Challenge *(not 'point'!) proven' was simply that! No interpretation of either your nor SR's meaning involved! And that was confirmed in a subsequent reply to SR, where he explained what he meant by 'losers' in that post - which I accept, but you don't seem to!

FWIW. Remain voters (me among them) lost; therefore they/we were/are losers! If you wish to (mis!)interpret that, then there's no hope for an end to this complete waste of time!
		
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Go back and read all your replies, your brain is twaddled.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Go back and read all your replies, your brain is twaddled.
		
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Jeez!


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## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What seems wrong to me is that it appears the Supreme Court has created a new law when their role is to interpret laws.  I may well be wrong here but isn't it parliaments job to create laws.
		
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No new 'Law' has been created.

But, if you heard/watched the AG's session at the Despatch Box, a 'new principle'!

The 'new law' phrase has probably been used to 'dumb down' that concept, similar to the 'unlawful/illegal' issue that has been misused by many.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

Is there a set time for the HoC to stop tonight, the last hour has been completely going round in circles.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 25, 2019)

Johnson practically on his knees begging the opposition for an election.
Extraordinary behaviour from a UK PM.


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## Beezerk (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is there a set time for the HoC to stop tonight, the last hour has been completely going round in circles.
		
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The last hour? ðŸ¤£


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			The last hour? ðŸ¤£
		
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Does me head in when the PM (this one and previous ones from both sides) use the old â€œI refer my honourable friend to my previous answerâ€ etc.


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## JamesR (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Does me head in when the PM (this one and previous ones from both sides) use the old â€œI refer my honourable friend to my previous answerâ€ etc.
		
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Itâ€™s better than â€œI refer my honourable friend to the answers Mr Cummings makes me giveâ€


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## robinthehood (Sep 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson practically on his knees begging the opposition for an election.
Extraordinary behaviour from a UK PM.
		
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The man is an embarrassment.


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## Slime (Sep 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is there a set time for the HoC to stop tonight, *the last hour has been completely going round in circles.*

Click to expand...

Jesus .............................. they should try reading this thread from the start!


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## Kellfire (Sep 25, 2019)

Boris Johnsonâ€™s comment referencing Jo Cox was beyond the pale.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 25, 2019)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-49833804

ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The 3 judges at the English â€œtrialâ€ are all more senior than any of the 11 Supreme Ct judges... makes you wonder doesnâ€™t it?
		
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Well if no actual law was broken !
Then the 11 judges are only giving their opinion ,
Is that correct or am  missing something?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 25, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Boris Johnsonâ€™s comment referencing Jo Cox was beyond the pale.
		
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There is a gaping moral vacuum where the office of Prime Minister used to be...â€¦...Nicola Sturgeon calls it.


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## Foxholer (Sep 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Well if no actual law was broken !
Then the 11 judges are only giving their opinion ,
Is that correct or am  missing something?
		
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Their ruling was that he wasn't allowed to do what he did!
So, Yes you were missing something! As well as an 'I'!


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Boris Johnsonâ€™s comment referencing Jo Cox was beyond the pale.
		
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The opposition using her name in vain first wasnâ€™t exactly tasteful.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Johnson practically on his knees begging the opposition for an election.
Extraordinary behaviour from a UK PM.
		
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You were not watching the same thing as me. Johnson is challenging Corbyn to have some guts and let "no deal" be one of the options to be voted on by the public , by having a GE now. As it is, if Corbyn is delaying a GE as he claims, in order to prevent no deal, he really is insulting the public by denying them a say on it. 
That doesn't matter to Corbyn (and Swinson). Of course, they know best, don't they?
Not only is Johnson challenging Corbyn to a GE, he also is giving him the opportunity to try to form a government without a GE. That's what would happen if Corbyn tabled a vote of no confidence and won it, (according to the political commentators.)
Corbyn is even afraid of that!  He is afraid that this parliament, who he thinks he leads against Boris, will not allow him to be PM when push comes to shove.
Would he be as brave to make such a challenge as Boris has made .? After all, Boris has a lot more to lose than Corbyn.
But no. As has been said, he is "frit "

All they have been reduced to is being offended by Johnson's "language"
The go - to tactic these days is to be so readily offended, as Society has become too.
If Johnson's language was so offensive I'm sure the Speaker would have pounced on it as he does at most breaches of parliamentary protocol, and as he did to your SNP man this evening , which you forgot to mention when commenting on behaviour in the House.ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Their ruling was that he wasn't allowed to do what he did!
So, Yes you were missing something! As wall as an 'I'!
		
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If he wasn't allowed then is there a law that prohibits it ?  If the answer is 'No' then how can a court of law make a judgement.  I just have this feeling that we now have Lawyers deciding politics which is a concern, the High court in England which has qualified judges decided that this was political matter, how could they be so wrong.


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## Hitdaball (Sep 26, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Then the 11 judges are only giving their opinion ,
Is that correct or am  missing something?
		
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You mean some sort of â€œnon bindingâ€ result. ? ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 26, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You were not watching the same thing as me. Johnson is challenging Corbyn to have some guts and let "no deal" be one of the options to be voted on by the public , by having a GE now. As it is, if Corbyn is delaying a GE as he claims, in order to prevent no deal, he really is insulting the public by denying them a say on it.
That doesn't matter to Corbyn (and Swinson). Of course, they know best, don't they?
Not only is Johnson challenging Corbyn to a GE, he also is giving him the opportunity to try to form a government without a GE. That's what would happen if Corbyn tabled a vote of no confidence and won it, (according to the political commentators.)
Corbyn is even afraid of that!  He is afraid that this parliament, who he thinks he leads against Boris, will not allow him to be PM when push comes to shove.
Would he be as brave to make such a challenge as Boris has made .? After all, Boris has a lot more to lose than Corbyn.
But no. As has been said, he is "frit "

All they have been reduced to is being offended by Johnson's "language"
The go - to tactic these days is to be so readily offended, as Society has become too.
If Johnson's language was so offensive I'm sure the Speaker would have pounced on it as he does at most breaches of parliamentary protocol, and as he did to your SNP man this evening , which you forgot to mention when commenting on behaviour in the House.ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

Johnson/Gove/Cumming's tactics have totally backfired on them and now leave them even more powerless than a -40 seat majority Government can be.
All the 'rebel alliance' has to do is sit in parliament and twiddle their fingers and Johnson and his extremist Tory faction are history.
You can almost touch Johnsons helplessness.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 26, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			You mean some sort of â€œnon bindingâ€ result. ? ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Did they promise it would be implemented? Cameron did.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Their ruling was that he wasn't allowed to do what he did!
So, Yes you were missing something! As wall as an 'I'!
		
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In their opinion .
I thought law courts dealt in facts only.


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## Foxholer (Sep 26, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			In their opinion .
I thought law courts dealt in facts only.
		
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Definitely other things are involved, especially at that level. They may have to *interpret the law* where no precedent exists. And, where necessary, decide what evidence is relevant and whether to accept/believe/agree with the arguments put forward by the advocares involved.


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## Foxholer (Sep 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If he wasn't allowed then is there a law that prohibits it ?  If the answer is 'No' then how can a court of law make a judgement.  I just have this feeling that we now have Lawyers deciding politics which is a concern, the High court in England which has qualified judges decided that this was political matter, how could they be so wrong.
		
Click to expand...

This article explains it perfectly https://commonslibrary.parliament.u...preme-court-on-the-prorogation-of-parliament/

But, to answer your questions...Yes there IS a law/precedent that, in certain situations, prevents it.
But before that The Court(s) had to decide whether it was somthing there could rule on in the first place - whether it was 'justiciable'. The High Court of England and Wales decided they could not; The Supreme Court decided they could - as did the Court of Session (in Scotland).


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## Old Skier (Sep 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			There is a gaping moral vacuum where the office of Prime Minister used to be...â€¦...Nicola Sturgeon calls it.
		
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After the debate and before the Leader of the House debate they all agreed to moderate their tone and language, 22 minutes into the debate the first person to forget was -------- the SNP MP. Sad people all round.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			After the debate and before the Leader of the House debate they all agreed to moderate their tone and language, 22 minutes into the debate the first person to forget was -------- the SNP MP. Sad people all round.
		
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no chance when the referee is biased.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 26, 2019)

good reads :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1177147467160281088

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1177145687114440704


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			no chance when the referee is biased.
		
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Agreed, hopefully next time weâ€™ll have a Labour MP voted in as the speaker.


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## patricks148 (Sep 26, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			no chance when the referee is biased.
		
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of course he is what do you expect from a Tory


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## spongebob59 (Sep 26, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			of course he is what do you expect from a Tory

Click to expand...

this fiasco has nothing to do with party anymore, its leave vs remain with    Mr 'bollox to brexir' Bercow in the middle.


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## Old Skier (Sep 26, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			no chance when the referee is biased.
		
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To be fair, he was reasonably yesterday,  it's just a shame he likes the sound of his own voice and weak.


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## Old Skier (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Agreed, hopefully next time weâ€™ll have a Labour MP voted in as the speaker.
		
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Don't they normally go turn & turn about? Most probably be Jo Swinson as according to Doom it's the only way she could remain an MP, providing she's in post before the phantom election


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## drdel (Sep 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Boris Johnsonâ€™s comment referencing Jo Cox was beyond the pale.
		
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It wasn't the PM who brought her name into the debate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Don't they normally go turn & turn about? Most probably be Jo Swinson as according to Doom it's the only way she could remain an MP, providing she's in post before the phantom election

Click to expand...

Itâ€™s poison chalice for me, I donâ€™t think anyone can stay 100% impartial all of the time.
Bit like the BBC, both Labour and the tories claim they are bias when it suits.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 26, 2019)

Correct :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176947508951572482


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## Old Skier (Sep 26, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Boris Johnsonâ€™s comment referencing Jo Cox was beyond the pale.
		
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Perhaps you should hear the FULL interviews on the BBC to get some balance. Both the husband and the sister come out of this with create credit and point the finger at the whole house and condemned the use of Jo's name by both sides.


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## User62651 (Sep 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps you should hear the FULL interviews on the BBC to get some balance. Both the husband and the sister come out of this with create credit and point the finger at the whole house and condemned the use of Jo's name by both sides.
		
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Right of Cox family but you can't get away from the fact it was a poor poor choice of words (again) from a Prime Minister, a good PM would not have gone there. _"Best way to honour her memory is by getting Brexit done"_ - Brexit was the motivation for her killing but Boris Johnson would say that's a worthwhile legacy? Also Brexit was something she strongly disagreed with.

Man was jetlagged and frustrated but it's no excuse, office of Prime Minister is being demeaned daily.


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## Old Skier (Sep 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Right of Cox family but you can't get away from the fact it was a poor poor choice of words (again) from a Prime Minister, a good PM would not have gone there. _"Best way to honour her memory is by getting Brexit done"_ - Brexit was the motivation for her killing but Boris Johnson would say that's a worthwhile legacy? Also Brexit was something she strongly disagreed with.

Man was jetlagged and frustrated but it's no excuse, office of Prime Minister is being demeaned daily.
		
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You could take the sisters take on his response to her name and come to the same opinion as her, she was as annoyed with the female labour MP who bought her name up.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Right of Cox family but you can't get away from the fact it was a poor poor choice of words (again) from a Prime Minister, a good PM would not have gone there. _"Best way to honour her memory is by getting Brexit done"_ - Brexit was the motivation for her killing but Boris Johnson would say that's a worthwhile legacy? Also Brexit was something she strongly disagreed with.

Man was jetlagged and frustrated but it's no excuse, office of Prime Minister is being demeaned daily.
		
Click to expand...

It was a poor poor choice of the woman MP to bring her name up in the first place. BJ was making a response to her name with a second's notice at the end of a long gruelling session , from a succession of labour/liberal members all wanting to say the same thing about the Supreme Court judgment.
BJ and the AG had already given their responses to that, but still they each wanted to say it themselves. Then seeing that they were getting nowhere they suddenly decided they were "offended" by the language of "surrender" bill etc
Which Boris rightly called humbug.
To my mind, what was demeaned yesterday was the title "Right honourable " and "honourable "when applied to MPs


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## spongebob59 (Sep 26, 2019)

They're all at it again by the sound of it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

And now his sister is having a say.
Boris Johnson's language was 'tasteless' - says his sister
http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnsons-language-was-tasteless-says-his-sister-11819940


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## Old Skier (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And now his sister is having a say.
Boris Johnson's language was 'tasteless' - says his sister
http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnsons-language-was-tasteless-says-his-sister-11819940

Click to expand...

Just wondering if you have heard the sisters take on the remark where she explains the context she thought it was made in?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Just wondering if you have heard the sisters take on the remark where she explains the context she thought it was made in?
		
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I have mate, canâ€™t find the link were she mentioned the Labour MP though.
She doesnâ€™t mention her in this article.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....son-urged-to-calm-commons-inferno-of-rhetoric


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## User62651 (Sep 26, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It was a poor poor choice of the woman MP to bring her name up in the first place. BJ was making a response to her name with a second's notice at the end of a long gruelling session , from a succession of labour/liberal members all wanting to say the same thing about the Supreme Court judgment.
BJ and the AG had already given their responses to that, but still they each wanted to say it themselves. Then seeing that they were getting nowhere they suddenly decided they were "offended" by the language of "surrender" bill etc
Which Boris rightly called humbug.
To my mind, what was demeaned yesterday was the title "Right honourable " and "honourable "when applied to MPs
		
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With position comes increased responsibility, when a Prime Minster speaks everyone listens, not so for opposition backbenchers. A Prime Minister must do better and rise above the inclination to 'snap' back, something T May was actually pretty good at, as was Cameron before her, they maintained the Office of Prime Minister quite well despite their political troubles.

Putting a flawed character like BJ in charge was never going to go well, the Johnson facade was exposed again yesterday, he is no leader. Copy Trump tactics is the clear directive from Cummings.

There are a lot of Conservative voters not buying into this current direction of their party. 80+ Tory MPs sat yesterday evening stony faced and arms crossed as the PMs directionless rants were underway, they know they have a duff leader.

Any GE is very unlikely to result in a Tory Majority Govt imo so it won't sort the Brexit issue. As for Brexit Party remains to be seen if a decent vote share will actually win seats, didn't for UKIP. First past post hinders fair representation. BP winning seats relies heavily on going into an election with/without having first Brexited, that's what's terrifying Boris Johnson - not getting Brexit done before a GE so losing seats to BP. In that regard still saying he'll not extend Art50 despite it being law. Legal eagles desperately seeking loopholes. Just more bluster from him, deny the facts. Opposition parties have the power of numbers currently and he can't stand it that his 'plan' has gone awry at every turn so far.


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## Old Skier (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I have mate, canâ€™t find the link were she mentioned the Labour MP though.
She doesnâ€™t mention her in this article.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....son-urged-to-calm-commons-inferno-of-rhetoric

Click to expand...

My post is based on her BBC interview


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			My post is based on her BBC interview
		
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Tried to find it mate, sorry I didnâ€™t find anything yet.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 26, 2019)

Deluded bitter and twisted sour face, so its no deal then or remain, last chance to have her say before she gets boot and next GE.

Anna Soubry MP
*âœ”*@Anna_Soubry

Johnsonâ€™s disgraceful offensive language was a premeditated deliberate strategy to drive division & fuel a populist agenda. Mercifully like his unlawful prorogation itâ€™s back firing - uniting Labour, strengthening #RebelAlliance.* Difficult to see any deal now getting thru Parly*


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			This article explains it perfectly https://commonslibrary.parliament.u...preme-court-on-the-prorogation-of-parliament/

But, to answer your questions...Yes there IS a law/precedent that, in certain situations, prevents it.
But before that The Court(s) had to decide whether it was somthing there could rule on in the first place - whether it was 'justiciable'. *The High Court of England and Wales decided they could not;* The Supreme Court decided they could - as did the Court of Session (in Scotland).
		
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...and they did *not* support the government position - though I hear government ministers - James Cleverley this morning being the latest - and leave supporting Tory MPs making that exact claim.  It is simply not true that the English court supported the government - yet they continue to mislead and misinform those listening.  And as a result we have leave voters claiming the English decision balances out the uk Supreme Court decision - giving them a feeling of right to challenge the Supreme Court decision and to claim it was wrong - following of course the line being pushed by Johnson.

It is a disgraceful way for the utterly shameless bunch comprising the government to behave. They bleat about upholding the will of the people.  Humbug!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Not much help, but my friend is a TEFL teacher living in Poland and has recently become dual British and Irish for the reasons you mention.
I
		
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BiL has no route to any form of dual citizenship.  Foxholers suggestion is possible but his potential earnings donâ€™t seem to justify accountants costs and setting up a company; and no idea what @SRs Canadians teaching french fits in- or if indeed it is real.  Bottom line remains that Brexit is going to be screwing up his life. Good one.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Agreed, hopefully next time weâ€™ll have a Labour MP voted in as the speaker.
		
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I hear that Pete Wishart has applied for the speakers job.
Promising root and branch changes to parliament plus battered black puddings and Irn Bru in the tea rooms.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I hear that Pete Wishart has applied for the speakers job.
Promising root and branch changes to parliament plus battered black puddings and Irn Bru in the tea rooms.
		
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As an aside - in Perth on Tuesday we passed a city centre chippy advertising deep fried mars bars.  And there was me thinking that that was just a myth.  A Speaker Wishart would shoorly have to require mps to at least sample the delicacy before they pontificate on the diet of the poorer.


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## Mudball (Sep 26, 2019)

If we ignore the issue of BoJo's use of language for about 15 mins, there is a small matter of the Backstop.   According to the FT, BoJo, hasnt figured out what the common market is.  
Very interesting article here

https://www.ft.com/content/7453c686-d9b7-11e9-8f9b-77216ebe1f17 

For those unable to see the FT, here are some choicest parts. 















.. Of course this is all EU's fault for not telling him what it means before he became PM.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			If we ignore the issue of BoJo's use of language for about 15 mins, there is a small matter of the Backstop.   According to the FT, BoJo, hasnt figured out what the common market is. 
Very interesting article here

https://www.ft.com/content/7453c686-d9b7-11e9-8f9b-77216ebe1f17

For those unable to see the FT, here are some choicest parts.















.. Of course this is all EU's fault for not telling him what it means before he became PM.
		
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Seriously? You cannot imagine the stupidity of it all. 
If you want to leave Boris is not your man. I am pretty sure he is ignorant of other important stuff.


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## Foxholer (Sep 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			If we ignore the issue of BoJo's use of language for about 15 mins, there is a small matter of the Backstop.   According to the FT, BoJo, hasnt figured out what the common market is. 
Very interesting article here

https://www.ft.com/content/7453c686-d9b7-11e9-8f9b-77216ebe1f17

For those unable to see the FT, here are some choicest parts.















.. Of course this is all EU's fault for not telling him what it means before he became PM.
		
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No surprise (to me at least) really!

1. BJ isn't interested in detail!
2. BJ isn't really expecting/interested in a 'deal'!
3. Juncker/EU (still) promoting the 'UK doesn't appreciate the benefits of EU membership'

How BJ gets around the problems he took on, I have no idea! But it's vital for the UK that he finds a way!


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## Foxholer (Sep 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Seriously? You cannot imagine the stupidity of it all.
...
		
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Unfortunately, it's not imagination!


harpo_72 said:



			....
If you want to leave Boris is not your man...
		
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I disagree! I believe he's THE man! Though I'm uncertain about his ability to do it!


harpo_72 said:



			...I am pretty sure he is ignorant of other important stuff.
		
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I'm almost certain he is!


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and they did *not* support the government position - though I hear government ministers - James Cleverley this morning being the latest - and leave supporting Tory MPs making that exact claim.  It is simply not true that the English court supported the government - yet they continue to mislead and misinform those listening.  And as a result we have leave voters claiming the English decision balances out the uk Supreme Court decision - giving them a feeling of right to challenge the Supreme Court decision and to claim it was wrong - following of course the line being pushed by Johnson.

It is a disgraceful way for the utterly shameless bunch comprising the government to behave. They bleat about upholding the will of the people.  Humbug!
		
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Well I don't see anything fairminded about your views here. One of the arguments of the government lawyers in all the courts was that the prorogation was a political matter and not one for the courts. 
That was the decision of the courts before the Supreme Court said otherwise.
Which means that what you are saying above isn't so. But, being a stated Boris "hater"  ( in view of names you have called him), you don't seem to let facts get in the way of your opinions.
Boris and AG have both opined that the Supreme Court judgment was wrong, something which they and anyone else is entitled to do. I am entitled to opine 
that it is wrong:you are entitled to opine that it was right.
Cleverly et al are entitled to opine also. Which you call a disgrace.
What should worry you is the trend to run to the Courts when there is a law that someone doesn't like,  to get it changed.
Something the European court was used for increasingly to overturn laws made in our Parliament ( an important matter for leavers)
Maybe, as a remainer, our Sovereignty doesn't matter too much to you?
least not as much as your dislike of BJ.


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## drdel (Sep 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			If we ignore the issue of BoJo's use of language for about 15 mins, there is a small matter of the Backstop.   According to the FT, BoJo, hasnt figured out what the common market is.
Very interesting article here

https://www.ft.com/content/7453c686-d9b7-11e9-8f9b-77216ebe1f17

For those unable to see the FT, here are some choicest parts.















.. Of course this is all EU's fault for not telling him what it means before he became PM.
		
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But the EU relies on the Internal market to survive. But by forcing artificially high levels of 'trade' between members it appears as increased growth. Since members contribute on the basis of GDP this is good for the Brussels budget machine - it is, of course, bad for citizens.

Now with their levels of debt and falling growth their PONSI system is threatened. Its the Thomas Cook theory of keep borrowing at interest rates greater than their RoI and hoping for enough growth to cover the shortfall - but it ain't: so good luck with that! UK cash is essential to them.


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## Foxholer (Sep 26, 2019)

drdel said:



			But the EU relies on the Internal market to survive. But by forcing artificially high levels of 'trade' between members it appears as increased growth. Since members contribute on the basis of GDP this is good for the Brussels budget machine - it is, of course, bad for citizens.

Now with their levels of debt and falling growth their PONSI systems is threatened. Its the Thomas Cook theory of keep borrowing at interest rates greater than their RoI and hoping for enough growth to cover the shortfall - but it ain't so good luck with that! UK is essential to them.
		
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They do, however, have the (legitimate) ability to 'print money' to at least flatten the peaks/troughs (sic), albeit rather dependent on that 'growth'. So not a real Ponzi scheme!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well I don't see anything fairminded about your views here. One of the arguments of the government lawyers in all the courts was that the prorogation was a political matter and not one for the courts.
That was the decision of the courts before the Supreme Court said otherwise.
Which means that what you are saying above isn't so. But, being a stated Boris "hater"  ( in view of names you have called him), you don't seem to let facts get in the way of your opinions.
Boris and AG have both opined that the Supreme Court judgment was wrong, something which they and anyone else is entitled to do. I am entitled to opine
that it is wrong:you are entitled to opine that it was right.
Cleverly et al are entitled to opine also. Which you call a disgrace.
What should worry you is the trend to run to the Courts when there is a law that someone doesn't like,  to get it changed.
Something the European court was used for increasingly to overturn laws made in our Parliament ( an important matter for leavers)
Maybe, as a remainer, our Sovereignty doesn't matter too much to you?
least not as much as your dislike of BJ.
		
Click to expand...

Please point me to, or remind me if, the names that I call Johnson that makes me a â€˜Boris haterâ€™. 

I agree that I certainly have very serious issues with his lying and duplicity.  But In fact contrary to hating him I feel pity for the guy - trapped in a hell of his own making with the ERG and millions of leave voters his gaolers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well I don't see anything fairminded about your views here. One of the arguments of the government lawyers in all the courts was that the prorogation was a political matter and not one for the courts.
That was the decision of the courts before the Supreme Court said otherwise.
Which means that what you are saying above isn't so. But, being a stated Boris "hater"  ( in view of names you have called him), you don't seem to let facts get in the way of your opinions.
Boris and AG have both opined that the Supreme Court judgment was wrong, something which they and anyone else is entitled to do. I am entitled to opine
that it is wrong:you are entitled to opine that it was right.
Cleverly et al are entitled to opine also. Which you call a disgrace.
What should worry you is the trend to run to the Courts when there is a law that someone doesn't like,  to get it changed.
Something the European court was used for increasingly to overturn laws made in our Parliament ( an important matter for leavers)
Maybe, as a remainer, our Sovereignty doesn't matter too much to you?
least not as much as your dislike of BJ.
		
Click to expand...

You need to understand that the uk Supreme Court ruling and the English high court rulings are not equivalents.  That Johnson and his goons are making that equivalence and telling us that they are - stirring up resentment against the Supreme Court - is disgraceful.  The Supreme Court judgement was very clearly not made on judgements of political policy - but on the role of parliament. They made that very clear at the outset.

The judges were looking for evidence to support what the government did.  The government did not provide sufficient to support the longer prorogation.  That neither the government nor any civil servant provided a witness statement confirming the basis for the prorogation as being for the purposes of a queens speech was rather telling.

However - since your opinion is that the Supreme Court ruling was wrong - which part of the courtâ€™s rationale and logic and laid out so unambiguously by Baroness Hale do you disagree with.  Where did the logic go wrong?


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## MegaSteve (Sep 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As an aside - in Perth on Tuesday we passed a city centre chippy advertising deep fried mars bars.  And there was me thinking that that was just a myth.  A Speaker Wishart would shoorly have to require mps to at least sample the delicacy before they pontificate on the diet of the poorer.
		
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As an aside, it came up in conversation recently, my lad sampled the 'pleasure' of a deep fried mars bar in Whitby of all places...


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 26, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			As an aside, it came up in conversation recently, my lad sampled the 'pleasure' of a deep fried mars bar in Whitby of all places...
		
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I tried one in Scotland once and it was disgusting!
Much prefer it straight from the fridge.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

W


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and they did *not* support the government position - though I hear government ministers - James Cleverley this morning being the latest - and leave supporting Tory MPs making that exact claim.  It is simply not true that the English court supported the government - yet they continue to mislead and misinform those listening.  And as a result we have leave voters claiming the English decision balances out the uk Supreme Court decision - giving them a feeling of right to challenge the Supreme Court decision and to claim it was wrong - following of course the line being pushed by Johnson.

It is a disgraceful way for the utterly shameless bunch comprising the government to behave. They bleat about upholding the will of the people.  Humbug!
		
Click to expand...

Why are  you posting here here again?


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## USER1999 (Sep 26, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I tried one in Scotland once and it was disgusting!
Much prefer it straight from the fridge.
		
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Semi frozen is by far the best Mars bar option.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Agreed, hopefully next time weâ€™ll have a Labour MP voted in as the speaker.
		
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Yes, maybe this calm and collected guy from his leavers constituancy would be able to keep things under control.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Please point me to, or remind me if, the names that I call Johnson that makes me a â€˜Boris haterâ€™.

I agree that I certainly have very serious issues with his lying and duplicity.  But In fact contrary to hating him I feel pity for the guy - trapped in a hell of his own making with the ERG and millions of leave voters his gaolers.
		
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Post 609 of Boris the PM....... thread.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, maybe this calm and collected guy from his leavers constituancy would be able to keep things under control.

View attachment 28268

Click to expand...


Or this nutcase....who callously brings Jo Cox into the debate then plays the â€œoffendedâ€ card when Boris â€œHumbugsâ€ her ðŸ˜‚


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## Old Skier (Sep 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Please point me to, or remind me if, the names that I call Johnson that makes me a â€˜Boris haterâ€™.

I agree that I certainly have very serious issues with his lying and duplicity.  But In fact contrary to hating him I feel pity for the guy - trapped in a hell of his own making with the ERG and millions of leave voters his gaolers.
		
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I'll give you "Johnson and his goons" as a starter for 10. But you really can't help yourself.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Or this nutcase....who callously brings Jo Cox into the debate then plays the â€œoffendedâ€ card when Boris â€œHumbugsâ€ her ðŸ˜‚

View attachment 28269

Click to expand...

Paula Sherriff MP began working for the Police in a Victim Support role at the age of 18. She was proud to receive a Judgeâ€™s commendation for work she undertook supporting victims of sexual abuse. After nearly a decade in the Police Service, Paula joined the NHS, working in a front line role in Community Healthcare provision until being elected MP for Dewsbury constituency.

Would you like to try and explain why you are insulting this Lady and labelling her as a nutcase?


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## Fade and Die (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Paula Sherriff MP began working for the Police in a Victim Support role at the age of 18. She was proud to receive a Judgeâ€™s commendation for work she undertook supporting victims of sexual abuse. After nearly a decade in the Police Service, Paula joined the NHS, working in a front line role in Community Healthcare provision until being elected MP for Dewsbury constituency.

Would you like to try and explain why you are insulting this Lady and labelling her as a nutcase?
		
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Did you see her rant? She needlessly brought up jo cox and she was barely intelligible. Didnâ€™t know owt about her previously so maybe it was just temporary madness? Tbh it seemed like mass hysteria had set in on the labour benches last night. Unable to land any relevant blows they clutched at being offended... Top darts! Not


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Did you see her rant? She needlessly brought up jo cox and she was barely intelligible. Didnâ€™t know owt about her previously so maybe it was just temporary madness? Tbh it seemed like mass hysteria had set in on the labour benches last night. Unable to land any relevant blows they clutched at being offended... Top darts! Not
		
Click to expand...

Have a look at post #13906 her question to the PM and reply is there.

Youâ€™re post is insulting, she spoke with passion about a friend and colleague who was murdered by an actual nutcase, she didnâ€™t insult anyone or name call, but it seems you believe it gives you the right to insult her.

This is how sad our Country has become:
Jess Phillips: Man held after 'smacking windows' of MP's office and shouting 'fascist'
http://news.sky.com/story/jess-phil...s-of-mps-office-and-shouting-fascist-11820162


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## Fade and Die (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Have a look at post #13906 her question to the PM and reply is there.

Youâ€™re post is insulting, she spoke with passion about a friend and colleague who was murdered by an actual nutcase, she didnâ€™t insult anyone or name call, but it seems you believe it gives you the right to insult her.

This is how sad our Country has become:
Jess Phillips: Man held after 'smacking windows' of MP's office and shouting 'fascist'
http://news.sky.com/story/jess-phil...s-of-mps-office-and-shouting-fascist-11820162

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You seem to be reaching for the â€œoffendedâ€ card pretty quickly yourself... must be a labour thing. And as for the pot head who banged on the window and shouted fascist. (Not smashing the window like Jess was saying on LBC earlier) Jesus, what a load of nothingness. Like I said... hysteria.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			You seem to be reaching for the â€œoffendedâ€ card pretty quickly yourself... must be a labour thing. And as for the pot head who banged on the window and shouted fascist. (Not smashing the window like Jess was saying on LBC earlier) Jesus, what a load of nothingness. Like I said... hysteria.
		
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So letâ€™s get this right

So you are highly critical of a MP who was I saw being very passionate in her speech and gave some home truths to the PM if not going a touch over the top yet dismissive someone else going a lot more over the top as a â€œload of nothingnessâ€ ?!

I can only guess what your reaction would be if a leave MP acted in the same way as Paula Sheriff.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			You seem to be reaching for the â€œoffendedâ€ card pretty quickly yourself... must be a labour thing. And as for the pot head who banged on the window and shouted fascist. (Not smashing the window like Jess was saying on LBC earlier) Jesus, what a load of nothingness. Like I said... hysteria.
		
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Obviously as you canâ€™t give a reason response as to calling her a nutcase, you deflect it back on to me and use the â€œoffendedâ€ card.

All Iâ€™ve said about what she said was that she spoke with passion about her friend, nowhere have I agreed with what she said.

What I am offended by is you not holding your hand up and accepting that calling her a nutcase was wrong.

Sadly itâ€™s the state of our Country and the divisions we have, that instead of reasoned debate you turn to defending the idiots and look for faults in me.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So letâ€™s get this right

So you are highly critical of a MP who was I saw being very passionate in her speech and gave some home truths to the PM if not going a touch over the top yet dismissive someone else going a lot more over the top as a â€œload of nothingnessâ€ ?!

I can only guess what your reaction would be if a leave MP acted in the same way as Paula Sheriff.
		
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Spot on Phil!...you got it! I do expect different standards from our MPs compared to random drug users... and when a leave MP starts bawling like a child Iâ€™ll be equally as dismissive.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So letâ€™s get this right

So you are highly critical of a MP who was I saw being very passionate in her speech and gave some home truths to the PM if not going a touch over the top yet dismissive someone else going a lot more over the top as a â€œload of nothingnessâ€ ?!

I can only guess what your reaction would be if a leave MP acted in the same way as Paula Sheriff.
		
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Any chance of explaining what this means?


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## Fade and Die (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Obviously as you canâ€™t give a reason response as to calling her a nutcase, you deflect it back on to me and use the â€œoffendedâ€ card.

All Iâ€™ve said about what she said was that she spoke with passion about her friend, nowhere have I agreed with what she said.

*What I am offended by* *is* you not holding your hand up and accepting that calling her a nutcase was wrong.

Sadly itâ€™s the state of our Country and the divisions we have, that instead of reasoned debate you turn to defending the idiots and look for faults in me.
		
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Oh behave ffs.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Oh behave ffs.
		
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Still struggling to put a reasoned response together.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Oh behave ffs.
		
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Honestly mate its best to ignore it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Spot on Phil!...you got it! I do expect different standards from our MPs compared to random drug users... and when a leave MP starts bawling like a child Iâ€™ll be equally as dismissive.
		
Click to expand...

He was also a Brexiteer - one who was threatening a MP yet you dismiss it as â€œnothingnessâ€ - I guess the thread does show the big divide and double standards around the country


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Honestly mate its best to ignore it.
		
Click to expand...

Youâ€™ve caused enough trouble on here, directly involved in it being locked a couple of times, please stay out it. Itâ€™s childish behaviour.


----------



## Fade and Die (Sep 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Honestly mate its best to ignore it.
		
Click to expand...


Iâ€™m not quoting him any more as he is a compulsive replier ðŸ˜


----------



## Fade and Die (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He was also a *Brexiteer* - one who was threatening a MP yet you dismiss it as â€œnothingnessâ€ - I guess the thread does show the big divide and double standards around the country
		
Click to expand...

Well chances are he was as the majority of the country are but how do you know? I havenâ€™t seen any reports saying that.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™ve caused enough trouble on here, directly involved in it being locked a couple of times, please stay out it. Itâ€™s childish behaviour.
		
Click to expand...

Now now, don't get spiteful


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I'll give you "Johnson and his goons" as a starter for 10. But you really can't help yourself.
		
Click to expand...

What has â€˜his goonsâ€™ got to do with what I call johnson?

And in what way does calling Johnson a â€˜despicable charlatanâ€™ make me a Boris â€˜haterâ€™? Youâ€™ll have to look again.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Now now, don't get spiteful
		
Click to expand...

Truth hurts eh!
How about you take the advice you keep giving others and ignore me.


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## Old Skier (Sep 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What has â€˜his goonsâ€™ got to do with what I call johnson?
		
Click to expand...

If you can't see it I can't help you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Well chances are he was as the *majority of the country are *but how do you know? I havenâ€™t seen any reports saying that.
		
Click to expand...

Are they ? Interesting statement - when did that happen then ? 

And just read the report on what he was shouting , she has also received threatening letters. 

Canâ€™t understand how someone wouldnâ€™t condemn the actions instead dismissing them - regardless of what side of the fence people sit, one MP lost their life because of these sort of nutters


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			W

Why are  you posting here here again?
		
Click to expand...

Really?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			If you can't see it I can't help you.
		
Click to expand...

You canâ€™t help me. Am I bothered...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Truth hurts eh!
How about you take the advice you keep giving others and ignore me.
		
Click to expand...

I dont want to, its interesting to see how the socialist mind works.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, you told us you wouldn't.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont want to, its interesting to see how the socialist mind works.
		
Click to expand...

Well Iâ€™ll put this politely:
Feel free to respond constructively or not  to anything I post, but if you start advising other posters, like you have tonight, how they should or should not interact with me on here I will report you to the mods for trolling.


----------



## Fade and Die (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are they ? Interesting statement - *when did that happen then ?*

And just read the report on what he was shouting , she has also received threatening letters.

Canâ€™t understand how someone wouldnâ€™t condemn the actions instead dismissing them - regardless of what side of the fence people sit, one MP lost their life because of these sort of nutters
		
Click to expand...

23rd June 2016. You been in a coma? 

Re the 2nd para, I donâ€™t condone it but itâ€™s hardly the hate crime you seem to be portraying it as. Bloke on drugs bangs on window and shouts â€œfacistâ€...

Mind you the definition of Facist is â€œA *fascist* is a follower of a political philosophy characterized by authoritarian views and a strong central government â€” and no tolerance for opposing opinions. *Fascist* traces to the Italian word fascio, *meaning* "group, bundle." Under *fascist* rule, the emphasis is on the group â€” the nation â€” with few individual rightsâ€ so was he wrong?


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Well Iâ€™ll put this politely:
Feel free to respond constructively or not  to anything I post, but if you start advising other posters, like you have tonight, how they should or should not interact with me on here I will report you to the mods for trolling.
		
Click to expand...

Feel free if it makes you feel better.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Feel free if it makes you feel better.
		
Click to expand...

It wouldnâ€™t make me feel better at all, but once again youâ€™ve took the thread off focus to get personal with people, when that happens other forum members get p!ssed off, tempers can fray and the thread getâ€™s locked.
Please debate reasonably without insults, itâ€™s not difficult.


----------



## Old Skier (Sep 26, 2019)

Is it Friday night.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 26, 2019)

In fact Iâ€™ll make it easier for everyone, I wonâ€™t post in this thread anymore.

Hopefully weâ€™ll leave the EU sooner rather than later and with a deal.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			In fact Iâ€™ll make it easier for everyone, I wonâ€™t post in this thread anymore.

Hopefully weâ€™ll leave the EU sooner rather than later and with a deal.
		
Click to expand...

Your choice.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



*23rd June 2016. You been in a coma? *

Click to expand...

The whole of the country didnâ€™t vote so you canâ€™t state that the â€œmajority of the country â€œare Brexiteers - to ensure you are factually correct - â€œthe majority who voted 3 years ago â€œ is a more factual way of saying it.




			Re the 2nd para, I donâ€™t condone it but itâ€™s hardly the hate crime you seem to be portraying it as. Bloke on drugs bangs on window and shouts â€œfacistâ€...

Mind you the definition of Facist is â€œA *fascist* is a follower of a political philosophy characterized by authoritarian views and a strong central government â€” and no tolerance for opposing opinions. *Fascist* traces to the Italian word fascio, *meaning* "group, bundle." Under *fascist* rule, the emphasis is on the group â€” the nation â€” with few individual rightsâ€ so was he wrong?
		
Click to expand...

It doesnâ€™t take much from one nutter banging on the window high on drugs to the next nutter high on drugs stabbing someone.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

The worst thing in all of this is - these idiots in the HOC with all their bickering like primary school kids are the same lot that some people trust to make the UK work on their own - god help us all ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The worst thing in all of this is - these idiots in the HOC with all their bickering like primary school kids are the same lot that some people trust to make the UK work on their own - god help us all ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸
		
Click to expand...

So as a country you suggest we need someone else to govern us and tuck us up at night.
Jeez!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So as a country you suggest we need someone else to govern us and tuck us up at night.
Jeez!
		
Click to expand...

Take a breath , step back a bit and realise you donâ€™t have to respond to every post made on here, no one is posting at you personal. Right now your whole way on here is to just go on the attack when posters dare to share an opinion you donâ€™t agree with it. 

Well done Iâ€™ll join the rest in avoiding you and the thread.


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## Dando (Sep 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, you told us you wouldn't.
		
Click to expand...

Remainers are allowed to lie!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Take a breath , step back a bit and realise you donâ€™t have to respond to every post made on here, no one is posting at you personal. Right now your whole way on here is to just go on the attack when posters dare to share an opinion you donâ€™t agree with it.

Well done Iâ€™ll join the rest in avoiding you and the thread.
		
Click to expand...

Im only holding your post to account. I thought you liked people being held to account.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*The whole of the country didnâ€™t vote so you canâ€™t state that the â€œmajority of the country â€œare Brexiteers - to ensure you are factually correct - â€œthe majority who voted 3 years ago â€œ is a more factual way of saying it.*



It doesnâ€™t take much from one nutter banging on the window high on drugs to the next nutter high on drugs stabbing someone.
		
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Thatâ€™s pretty weak stuff right there Phil.ðŸ˜„
I think Iâ€™m on pretty solid ground when I state after the biggest turnout in UK voting history the Majority of the country are Leavers. Anyway stop nit picking, it adds nothing to the thread


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2019)

Dando said:



			Remainers are allowed to lie!
		
Click to expand...

When circumstances, facts and understanding change even those who voted to leave are allowed to change their mind - as can those who voted to remain.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 26, 2019)

Dando said:



			Remainers are allowed to lie!
		
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I think you'll find that according to some (or one in particular) on here Remainers only made predictions or forecasts. It was only Leavers that lied.

(Can't add a smiley on my phone for some reason)


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Thatâ€™s pretty weak stuff right there Phil.ðŸ˜„
I think Iâ€™m on pretty solid ground when I state after the biggest turnout in UK voting history the Majority of the country are Leavers. Anyway stop nit picking, it adds nothing to the thread
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s not â€œweakâ€ itâ€™s just factual 

About 25% of the country voted to leave (17mil ) , 18 mil arenâ€™t registered ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ , 12 nil didnâ€™t vote and 16 mil voted to remain.

Itâ€™s not â€œnit pickingâ€ - itâ€™s just ensuring that when statements are made they are factual ones ðŸ‘


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 26, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think you'll find that according to some (or one in particular) on here Remainers only made predictions or forecasts. It was only Leavers that lied.

(Can't add a smiley on my phone for some reason)
		
Click to expand...

What smiley would you like to add and Iâ€™ll do it for you ðŸ‘


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 26, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1176919956732162050
Looks like Gove has 'lunched well'.


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## robinthehood (Sep 26, 2019)

New low.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/25/brexit-propaganda-broadcast-3000-primary-schools-10809109/


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## Hobbit (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s not â€œweakâ€ itâ€™s just factual

About 25% of the country voted to leave (17mil ) , 18 mil arenâ€™t registered ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ , 12 nil didnâ€™t vote and 16 mil voted to remain.

Itâ€™s not â€œnit pickingâ€ - itâ€™s just ensuring that when statements are made they are factual ones ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Are we really still doing this stupid, totally.... stupid, the majority didn't vote to leave?!?!?!?!? Its bl00dy puerile and so bl00dy childish it beggars belief.

The majority that cared about the outcome made the effort to vote, and of those the majority decided on Leave!

Can we at least get past the banal argument of 3 years ago and recognise how the 'winner' is decided.

What gone on since, argue away till your heart's content but lets try and be a little more intelligent about it.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What smiley would you like to add and Iâ€™ll do it for you ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

If there's a "SiLH is a hypocrite" smiley then let's go with that one. ;-)


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The worst thing in all of this is - these idiots in the HOC with all their bickering like primary school kids are the same lot that some people trust to make the UK work on their own - god help us all ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸
		
Click to expand...

Yes but I am expecting most of these MPs to be out of a job after a GE.
If not then we get what we deserve.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 27, 2019)

Peston update, ,



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1177361043644981250


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## ger147 (Sep 27, 2019)

So Boris' plan is an Order of Council to get round the Benn legislation and leave with No Deal on 31st October.  If true and he tries it, it's going to make everything we've seen so far look like a Royal Garden party in comparison.

I wonder which cabinet member leaked this to John Major...


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## spongebob59 (Sep 27, 2019)

Why oh why would the EU want to grant any extension after watching this shower at work this week ?
someone has spent millions to get parliament reopened and then they spend a day and a half throwing insults at each other and then take the next day off.
what a bunch of joderall bankers.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 27, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1177342588870975488

Gina Miller putting not so Cleverly in his place.
Surprisingly she was the most popular panellist on QT last night.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1177342588870975488

Gina Miller putting not so Cleverly in his place.
Surprisingly she was the most popular panellist on QT last night.
		
Click to expand...

You must have watched it with Doon filters on.


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## Dando (Sep 27, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Why oh why would the EU want to grant any extension after watching this shower at work this week ?
someone has spent millions to get parliament reopened and then they spend a day and a half throwing insults at each other and then take the next day off.
what a bunch of joderall bankers.
		
Click to expand...

why would they grant and extension?
maybe to grab as much cash off of us as possible while they can


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 27, 2019)

ger147 said:



			So Boris' plan is an Order of Council to get round the Benn legislation and leave with No Deal on 31st October.  If true and he tries it, it's going to make everything we've seen so far look like a Royal Garden party in comparison.

I wonder which cabinet member leaked this to John Major...
		
Click to expand...

The Benn legislation is ill thought out imo.
Itâ€™s a bad law made in haste to stop no deal.
Why should a remainer dominated parliament decide that ,it should be up to us .
So Boris is trying to find a way around it. 
But his legal team have failed him up to now.

We are being governed by laws made in Henry V111s time.
The opposition use these laws when it suits them then complain if someone finds a way around it.


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## User62651 (Sep 27, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



*The Benn legislation is ill thought out imo.
Itâ€™s a bad law made in haste to stop no deal.*
Why should a remainer dominated parliament decide that *,it should be up to us .*
So Boris is trying to find a way around it.
But his legal team have failed him up to now.

*We are being governed by laws made in Henry V111s time.  *
The opposition use these laws when it suits them then complain if someone finds a way around it.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe if BJ hadn't tried to close parliament for 5 weeks it wouldn't have needed to be rushed through in a day.
It should be up to us? - so should every piece of legislation also be up to us as well? Thank heavens it's not imo.
Welcome to Westminster.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 27, 2019)

Love they way that the arch Brexiteer guy nods in agreement with Gina Miller when she hands Cleverly a his rear end.
Strange alliance there.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 27, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Maybe if BJ hadn't tried to close parliament for 5 weeks it wouldn't have needed to be rushed through in a day.
It should be up to us? - so should every piece of legislation also be up to us as well? Thank heavens it's not imo.
Welcome to Westminster.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s because we spent three years with a PM that didnâ€™t really want to leave.
So Boris has used hard tactics because nice tactics donâ€™t work with MPs.

No referendums are a disaster as is proving here, But MPs asked us what we wanted.  
We told them ,now they are blocking it.
Itâ€™s a shambles and the only winners are the EU.
They will milk us for all they can get.
But would you want a member that behaves like the UK in your club?
They only want us for our money it keeps their project alive.
If we leave their agenda is dead and they know it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 27, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			If you can't see it I can't help you.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, he can see it alright. People you call despicable are people you pity.ðŸ¤”
Some would call that a tad condescending, I think.


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## Old Skier (Sep 27, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Oh, he can see it alright. People you call despicable are people you pity.ðŸ¤”
Some would call that a tad condescending, I think.
		
Click to expand...

Lost me


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## robinthehood (Sep 27, 2019)

https://newsthump.com/2019/09/27/it...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork


----------



## Wilson (Sep 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You must have watched it with Doon filters on.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't, and she did own him, he had no response.


----------



## Beezerk (Sep 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://newsthump.com/2019/09/27/it...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork

Click to expand...

Excellent post, a nice balanced article with no bias at all ðŸ¤”ðŸ˜‚


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://newsthump.com/2019/09/27/it...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork

Click to expand...

90,000 golf club members voted for Johnson....â€¦.how dare he say that
What about the Lodge members, London taxi drivers, Aberdeenshire YF clubs and the blue rinse bridge brigade.


----------



## JamesR (Sep 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Paula Sherriff MP began working for the Police in a Victim Support role at the age of 18. She was proud to receive a Judgeâ€™s commendation for work she undertook supporting victims of sexual abuse. After nearly a decade in the Police Service, Paula joined the NHS, working in a front line role in Community Healthcare provision until being elected MP for Dewsbury constituency.

Would you like to try and explain why you are insulting this Lady and labelling her as a nutcase?
		
Click to expand...

Because heâ€™s all thatâ€™s wrong with oh so many things...


----------



## JamesR (Sep 27, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			23rd June 2016. You been in a coma?

Re the 2nd para, I donâ€™t condone it but itâ€™s hardly the hate crime you seem to be portraying it as. Bloke on drugs bangs on window and shouts â€œfacistâ€...

Mind you the definition of Facist is â€œA *fascist* is a follower of a political philosophy characterized by authoritarian views and a strong central government â€” and no tolerance for opposing opinions. *Fascist* traces to the Italian word fascio, *meaning* "group, bundle." Under *fascist* rule, the emphasis is on the group â€” the nation â€” with few individual rightsâ€ so was he wrong?
		
Click to expand...

Yes


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			If there's a "SiLH is a hypocrite" smiley then let's go with that one. ;-)
		
Click to expand...

I thought the mods have warned against personal attacks of other posters.

I am disappointed that some view my posts as hypocritical - misinformed and mistaken at times yes - but I try to not be a hypocrite and I wonder why I am so accused.  I can only think that perhaps some do not like hearing some truths about leading leave campaigners as some remain voters see them.


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 27, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes but I am expecting most of these MPs to be out of a job after a GE.
If not then we get what we deserve.
		
Click to expand...

While I agree with the sentiment, I'm afraid it doesn't work like that - more's the pity!
And where it might happen, the replacement is likely to act in a very similar way!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Sep 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought the mods have warned against personal attacks of other posters. 

I am disappointed that some view my posts as hypocritical - misinformed and mistaken at times yes - but I try to not be a hypocrite and I wonder why I am so accused.  I can only think that perhaps some do not like hearing some truths about leading leave campaigners as some remain voters see them.
		
Click to expand...

That wasn't a personal attack on another poster, it was a factually accurate statement. The reason your posts are seen as hypocritical is because they are hypocritical. You may be trying not to be a hypocrite but you're failing. You have been quick to highlight lies told by the Leave campaign while ignoring and refusing to accept that the Remain side also told lies. Perhaps if you were more balanced in your views and your posts then it wouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			...Perhaps if you were more balanced in your views and your posts _agreed with me_ then it wouldn't be an issue.
		
Click to expand...

Fixed that for you!

I don't see anything hypocritical about SILH's posts - merely opinion that is different to many (seemingly louder) ones on here! Please provide 2 examples of his 'hypocrisy'!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Sep 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Fixed that for you!

I don't see anything hypocritical about SILH's posts - merely opinion that is different to many (seemingly louder) ones on here! Please provide 2 examples of his 'hypocrisy'!
		
Click to expand...

Using derogatory terms to describe Leave voters and politicians but complaining when others do the same in reverse.

Repeatedly highlighting lies from Leave while ignoring those from Remain.

And as for you "fixing" my post, I'm on the same side of the argument as SiLH. I wanted and still want to remain but he's a Remain version of Farage. Which coincidentally is another example of his hypocrisy. He shouts long and loud about the extreme Leavers without accepting that he is their mirror on the Remain side.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Sep 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While I agree with the sentiment, I'm afraid it doesn't work like that - more's the pity!
And where it might happen, the replacement is likely to act in a very similar way!
		
Click to expand...

I can see all this putting a lot of people off politics .
Once this is over people wonâ€™t bother imo.

We had the biggest turnout for a vote in history and all they have done in over three years is argue what we meant ,
If we could stop MPs pay until they do their job and Brexit that might hurry them up a bit.
Try to  think of any other job where you get paid for messing it up.

Bankers ,Thomas Cook bosses getting millions while people lose their jobs itâ€™s scandalous.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			90,000 golf club members voted for Johnson....â€¦.how dare he say that
What about the Lodge members, London taxi drivers, Aberdeenshire YF clubs and the blue rinse bridge brigade.

Click to expand...

Didnt realise you had voted for him, well well


----------



## Foxholer (Sep 27, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Using derogatory terms to describe Leave voters and politicians but complaining when others do the same in reverse.

Repeatedly highlighting lies from Leave while ignoring those from Remain.

And as for you "fixing" my post, I'm on the same side of the argument as SiLH. I wanted and still want to remain but he's a Remain version of Farage. Which coincidentally is another example of his hypocrisy. He shouts long and loud about the extreme Leavers without accepting that he is their mirror on the Remain side.
		
Click to expand...

You've failed to to post the 2 examples I requested! Instances, nor 'styles' was what I was after.

And while your first point would be hypocrisy, my view is that your second wouldn't - simply 'bias', something he is happy to declare. So 2 examples of the 1st style please!

Oh...And I too voted remain, but unlike at least you, accept the result and want the verdict of the vote to be implemented. Are you for or against 'democracy' - and perhaps whether you are being a hypocrite yourself? And calling BJ 'Bozo' doesn't count either!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Sep 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You've failed to to post the 2 examples I requested! Instances, nor 'styles' was what I was after.

And while your first point would be hypocrisy, my view is that your second wouldn't - simply 'bias', something he is happy to declare. So 2 examples of the 1st style please!

Oh...And I too voted remain, but unlike at least you, accept the result and want the verdict of the vote to be implemented. Are you for or against 'democracy' - and perhaps whether you are being a hypocrite yourself? And calling BJ 'Bozo' doesn't count either!
		
Click to expand...

There's a big difference between wanting to remain and not accepting the result of the vote. I still firmly believe that the best option is to remain in the EU but accept that my view was not shared by the majority of those that voted. My opinion is that no matter how crazy I think it is to leave that was the result of the question asked and we now have to honour the result, hopefully in the least damaging way possible.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			There's a big difference between wanting to remain and not accepting the result of the vote. I still firmly believe that the best option is to remain in the EU but accept that my view was not shared by the majority of those that voted. My opinion is that no matter how crazy I think it is to leave that was the result of the question asked and we now have to honour the result, hopefully in the least damaging way possible.
		
Click to expand...

Whats your least damaging Brexit


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Fixed that for you!

I don't see anything hypocritical about SILH's posts - merely opinion that is different to many (seemingly louder) ones on here! Please provide 2 examples of his 'hypocrisy'!
		
Click to expand...

Anything hypocritical about his continued promises to leave the thread and not post anymore, and then coming back and posting more?  I took that to be what the hypocritical posts comment was referencing

He has continually used derogatory language to describe Leavers and has made unfounded accusations against them as a group.  I quoted these in a long post some time ago.  Feel free to search for it if you wish.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 28, 2019)

Gentlemen of the Forum

Fragger is watching you ðŸ‘€.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 28, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I can see all this putting a lot of people off politics .
Once this is over people wonâ€™t bother imo.

We had the biggest turnout for a vote in history and all they have done in over three years is argue what we meant ,
If we could stop MPs pay until they do their job and Brexit that might hurry them up a bit.
Try to  think of any other job where you get paid for messing it up.

Bankers ,Thomas Cook bosses getting millions while people lose their jobs itâ€™s scandalous.
		
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Why do Leavers continue with the mantra of 'the biggest vote in history'.
The biggest vote in history was only a 2.5% swing away from being a win for remain. Both were high numbers but the margin was very small.
If it was a resounding victory for leave nobody would have a problem. The reason the result was so marginal was in your leader Nigel Farage's words 'unfinished business'.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why do Leavers continue with the mantra of 'the biggest vote in history'.
The biggest vote in history was only a 2.5% swing away from being a win for remain. Both were high numbers but the margin was very small.
If it was a resounding victory for leave nobody would have a problem. The reason the result was so marginal was in your leader Nigel Farage's words 'unfinished business'.
		
Click to expand...

Who won, and by how much has Zero relevance to it being the biggest vote. 

The sheer numbers taking part make it the biggest. The rest you have written doesn't change that.


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## MegaSteve (Sep 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why do Leavers continue with the mantra of 'the biggest vote in history'.
The biggest vote in history was only a 2.5% swing away from being a win for remain. Both were high numbers but the margin was very small.
If it was a resounding victory for leave nobody would have a problem. The reason the result was so marginal was in your leader Nigel Farage's words 'unfinished business'.
		
Click to expand...

Who appointed Farage as leader?
As I remember it was Gisela Stuart..


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## Foxholer (Sep 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			There's a big difference between wanting to remain and not accepting the result of the vote. I still firmly believe that the best option is to remain in the EU but accept that my view was not shared by the majority of those that voted. My opinion is that no matter how crazy I think it is to leave that was the result of the question asked and we now have to honour the result, hopefully in the least damaging way possible.
		
Click to expand...

That's fair enough. My post (that you quoted) is still valid though - with that correction/clarification.


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## Foxholer (Sep 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Anything hypocritical about his continued promises to leave the thread and not post anymore, and then coming back and posting more?  I took that to be what the hypocritical posts comment was referencing

He has continually used derogatory language to describe Leavers and has made unfounded accusations against them as a group.  I quoted these in a long post some time ago.  Feel free to search for it if you wish.
		
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As it demands an answer....

Possibly, but not imo (merely 'addiction' as I can attest!) - and it was 'posts', not 'posting' that was at issue. Happy to review your post, but it's not up to me to find/quote it. I merely asked the question!


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## drdel (Sep 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			As it demands an answer....

Possibly, but not imo (merely 'addiction' as I can attest!) - and it was 'posts', not 'posting' that was at issue. Happy to review your post, but it's not up to me to find/quote it. I merely asked the question!
		
Click to expand...

Surely you know that your 'question(s)'merely  prolong the meaningless bickering.


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## Foxholer (Sep 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Surely you know that your 'question(s)'merely  prolong the meaningless bickering.
		
Click to expand...

If it means a few wrong attitudes are corrected - or at least highlighted as being 'factually wrong' (and/or worse), then I believe it's worthwhile! I can generally ignore meaningless bickering but when based on wrong/false attitudes, I'm inclined to step in and 'correct' - an attitude probably formed from many years umpiring/refereeing (at quite a high level) several sports!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why do Leavers continue with the mantra of 'the biggest vote in history'.
The biggest vote in history was only a 2.5% swing away from being a win for remain. Both were high numbers but the margin was very small.
If it was a resounding victory for leave nobody would have a problem. The reason the result was so marginal was in your leader Nigel Farage's words 'unfinished business'.
		
Click to expand...

Because itâ€™s a fact.
Something thatâ€™s been lost on a lot of parliamentarians.

And Farage is not my leader!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			If it means a few wrong attitudes are corrected - or at least highlighted as being 'factually wrong' (and/or worse), then I believe it's worthwhile! I can generally ignore meaningless bickering but when based on wrong/false attitudes, I'm inclined to step in and 'correct' - an attitude probably formed from many years umpiring/refereeing (at quite a high level) several sports!
		
Click to expand...

Hm! So a Burcow of the Forum, a correcting hand to our falsehoods, a bringer of order to that which has become erratic, a pedant who dots our Is and crosses our Ts.   Makes me wonder who  regulates the regulator, I guess the answer is 'The Mods' god bless em ðŸ¤”


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## Fade and Die (Sep 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why do Leavers continue with the mantra of 'the biggest vote in history'.
The biggest vote in history was only a 2.5% swing away from being a win for remain. Both were high numbers but the margin was very small.
If it was a resounding victory for leave nobody would have a problem. The reason the result was so marginal was in your leader Nigel Farage's words 'unfinished business'.
		
Click to expand...

Jump forward a few years Doon, indyref 2... leave 52% remain 48%, huge turnout etc. Then 3 years later the U.K. government is still refusing to accept the result. People are saying you didnâ€™t know what you voted for (maybe questioning your intelligence!) they say itâ€™s impossible to extricate Scotland from the U.K. as youâ€™re too intertwined with us. Your own MPs are doing their damnedest to stop Scotland leaving.

Be honest Doon, how would you feel? Would you go gentle into the good night? Hardly.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 28, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Who won, and by how much has Zero relevance to it being the biggest vote.

The sheer numbers taking part make it the biggest. The rest you have written doesn't change that.
		
Click to expand...

Disagree, Leavers keep repeating the 17.4 million as the biggest vote in history.
If what you said was true, that figure would then have been quoted as 33 million +


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## Papas1982 (Sep 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Disagree, Leavers keep repeating the 17.4 million as the biggest vote in history.
If what you said was true, that figure would then have been quoted as 33 million +
		
Click to expand...

The vote was won with that amount. 

I've not seen anyone state it was the biggest win of all time....

They usually say it was the biggest vote of all time, with 17.4m wanting brexit. None of that is false.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			The vote was won with that amount.

I've not seen anyone state it was the biggest win of all time....

They usually say it was the biggest vote of all time, with 17.4m wanting brexit. None of that is false.
		
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What is often added is that Leave won an *overwhelming* mandate based upon the number of votes cast - rather than the margin - and that is obviously disingenuous.  

And as far as being labelled a hypocrite for posting here when I said I wouldnâ€™t.  Well - as I said - when the circumstances and facts change then I am allowed to change my mind.  And as they have then so have I. Itâ€™s a weird sort of hypocrisy that includes changing of mind.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Jump forward a few years Doon, indyref 2... leave 52% remain 48%, huge turnout etc. Then 3 years later the U.K. government is still refusing to accept the result. People are saying you didnâ€™t know what you voted for (maybe questioning your intelligence!) they say itâ€™s impossible to extricate Scotland from the U.K. as youâ€™re too intertwined with us. Your own MPs are doing their damnedest to stop Scotland leaving.

Be honest Doon, how would you feel? Would you go gentle into the good night? Hardly.
		
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Once again for those not paying attention

There has been significant change to the Edinburgh agreement since 2014.
ELEV and the rise of English Nationalism.
UK [England in reality] taking Scotland out of the EU and when the Naesayers said that by voting for them was the ONLY way Scotland could STAY in the EU.
Some Scots people were daft enough to believe the lies that the Naysayers were spinning.

You will lose your pension was a Labour doorstep plan when meeting elderly residents. One of the factors in Labours demise in Scotland.
You cannot use the Â£. another whopper.
You will be forced to drive on the right.
You will lose the Monarchy. Etc Etc.

I think the same scenario is playing out in England with the difference that many are too stubborn to admit they were conned.


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## drdel (Sep 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			If it means a few wrong attitudes are corrected - or at least highlighted as being 'factually wrong' (and/or worse), then I believe it's worthwhile! I can generally ignore meaningless bickering but when based on wrong/false attitudes, I'm inclined to step in and 'correct' - an attitude probably formed from many years umpiring/refereeing (at quite a high level) several sports!
		
Click to expand...

Its a discussion forum, not a sport that requires points or penalties, just a collectively of opinions. No more, no less.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Once again for those not paying attention

There has been significant change to the Edinburgh agreement since 2014.
ELEV and the rise of English Nationalism.
UK [England in reality] taking Scotland out of the EU and when the Naesayers said that by voting for them was the ONLY way Scotland could STAY in the EU.
Some Scots people were daft enough to believe the lies that the Naysayers were spinning.

You will lose your pension was a Labour doorstep plan when meeting elderly residents. One of the factors in Labours demise in Scotland.
You cannot use the Â£. another whopper.
You will be forced to drive on the right.
You will lose the Monarchy. Etc Etc.

I think the same scenario is playing out in England with the difference that many are too stubborn to admit they were conned.
		
Click to expand...

Did you quote my post by accident? As your reply has no relevance whatsoever to my question.ðŸ˜‚


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You must have watched it with Doon filters on.
		
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No - no Doon filters on.  The High court judgement and the Supreme Court judgement were not equivalent - yet such as Cleverly continue to suggest that the high court found in favour of the government - balancing off the Supreme Court judgement - and that is simply not true.  And you can call a statement of something that is factually untrue whatever you want.

Just as Gove has been saying that - following a readiness review - industry is saying that it is ready.  And some at that meeting are telling us that that is an incorrect conclusion to draw - what much of industry is saying is that they think they have done what they can but that that is very far from mitigating the impact of leaving - especially in the event of a No Deal exit.

And I read this morning that Redwood is saying kill the negotiations just go for No Deal and trade under Gatt24 with something like the EU-Canada agreement being what we want to end up with.  Does he not understand that Gatt24 requires a framework/target EU-UK agreement in place as a *pre*-*requisite* for trading under Gatt24? Leaving with no deal agreed hardly seems consistent with that requirement.

As Cleverly as Gove and Redwood.  All at best being extremely disingenuous.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Did you quote my post by accident? As your reply has no relevance whatsoever to my question.ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

I tried to interpret it as best I could but found it a bit difficult to understand.
Unsure what you were actually asking for so I drew my comparisons of the two referendums I had experienced.
Sorry if my reply was not the one you were searching for.

When you say 'your' MP's do you mean Scotland's or the SNP's.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I tried to interpret it as best I could but found it a bit difficult to understand.
Unsure what you were actually asking for so I drew my comparisons of the two referendums I had experienced.
Sorry if my reply was not the one you were searching for.

*When you say 'your' MP's do you mean Scotland's or the SNP's.*

Click to expand...


Either. 

Me thinks you are stuck for a genuine reply as your support of independence is a clash with your support to stay in the EU...

Strange times we live in eh? When the opposition does not want a General Election and a Nationalist party does not want independence! ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Sep 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Hm! So a Burcow of the Forum, a correcting hand to our falsehoods, a bringer of order to that which has become erratic, a pedant who dots our Is and crosses our Ts.   Makes me wonder who  regulates the regulator, I guess the answer is 'The Mods' god bless em ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Corrector of falsehoods - where I see them - certainly; I-dotting, T-crossing pedant - occasionally. But certainly not 'bringer of  order'. That (Burcow) role is purely a Mods one!


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## Foxholer (Sep 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its a discussion forum, not a sport that requires points or penalties, just a collectively of opinions. No more, no less.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed.

Btw. I believe 'collectivity' was the correct word!


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## User62651 (Sep 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Either.

Me thinks you are stuck for a genuine reply as your support of independence is a clash with your support to stay in the EU...

Strange times we live in eh? *When the opposition does not want a General Election and a Nationalist party does not want independence! ðŸ˜‚*

Click to expand...

How do you know, because Boris says so ?

That's just a wind up, playground stuff and it's not working as a tactic. Even a lot of Tory MPs and members were embarrassed by the Corbyn KFC chicken thing. They have agreed to a GE as soon as an extension to Art50 is in place and you know it.

We all know the current situation with 31st Oct /No Deal/Prorouging/finding a legal dodge to get round the Benn bill etc, every dirty trick in the book will be researched by PM. 

Opposition parties do not have to jump to a desperate PM the second he says do what I want, they know he's in trouble and is a conniving character so what's a few more weeks. Opposition parties are right imo to try and make sure the Art50 extension is sorted before any election (if PM cannot get a deal by then). It also puts the onus firmly on PM to try and get a deal with EU, something that does not appear to be getting anywhere at the moment. All PMs efforts should be there just now. 

PM cares about himself that's why he's hellbent on leaving Oct31 'do or die' and will break/bend the law for it, he stupidly set a red line on it during leadership contest to become PM and has hamstrung himself in doing so. All bluster.

Those deal or no deal deadlines of mid and end October have to be sorted before we go to a GE.....imo. One thing at a time.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - no Doon filters on.  The High court judgement and the Supreme Court judgement were not equivalent - yet such as Cleverly continue to suggest that the high court found in favour of the government - balancing off the Supreme Court judgement - and that is simply not true.  And you can call a statement of something that is factually untrue whatever you want.

Just as Gove has been saying that - following a readiness review - industry is saying that it is ready.  And some at that meeting are telling us that that is an incorrect conclusion to draw - what much of industry is saying is that they think they have done what they can but that that is very far from mitigating the impact of leaving - especially in the event of a No Deal exit.

*And I read this morning that Redwood is saying kill the negotiations just go for No Deal and trade under Gatt24 with something like the EU-Canada agreement being what we want to end up with.  Does he not understand that Gatt24 requires a framework/target EU-UK agreement in place as a pre-requisite for trading under Gatt24? Leaving with no deal agreed hardly seems consistent with that requirement.*

As Cleverly as Gove and Redwood.  All at best being extremely disingenuous.
		
Click to expand...

I don't have a Scooby if he knows as much as you or not.   Maybe it would be better to ask him rather than me


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Either.

Me thinks you are stuck for a genuine reply as your support of independence is a clash with your support to stay in the EU...

Strange times we live in eh? When the opposition does not want a General Election and a Nationalist party does not want independence! ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Either means you do not understand the situation as 13 Scottish Tory MP's and about 3 Tory SMP's support Johnson.
No one expects them to be returned next election.

Re strange times, it is just tactics.
Once Johnson cannot achieve Brexit by 31st Oct he and the Tory are finished.
The more Militant SNP supporters would like their party to support LBJ and call a pre Brexit Election as they see that route quicker to gaining Independence


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## spongebob59 (Sep 28, 2019)

this will help settle things down :

The purpose of a "caretaker" government is expanding. The original idea was that, following a successful vote of no confidence against the Johnson government, Mr Corbyn would have a shot at forming a caretaker government.This would have explicit/limited purpose of applying to Brussels for an extension to Article 50 (to stop no deal on October 31st) then calling general election. Both acts to be done in matter of weeks. This is the way the SNP is moving. But LDs don't want Mr Corbyn as caretaker.  Other "caretaker" PMs have been mentioned, all leading "Remain" figures, from K Clarke to M Beckett. But now it's been suggested (see today's Times) that such a figure should not be a "caretaker" but lead a so-called "government of national unity". This is a very different kettle of poisson. There's talk that, having secured a long extension to Article 50, a GNU would then plan for a 2nd referendum followed by a general election. This could see it in power for up to a year, as oppose to the caretaker's couple of weeks.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 28, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1177948573419352064


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## Fade and Die (Sep 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Either means you do not understand the situation as 13 Scottish Tory MP's and about 3 Tory SMP's support Johnson.
No one expects them to be returned next election.

Re strange times, it is just tactics.
Once Johnson cannot achieve Brexit by 31st Oct he and the Tory are finished.
The more Militant SNP supporters would like their party to support LBJ and call a pre Brexit Election as they see that route quicker to gaining Independence
		
Click to expand...


You seem to be struggling Doon...unable to give a straight answer to a VERY simple question. 

Iâ€™ll repeat it...

â€œHow would you feel if the government did their best to prevent  Scottish independence after a 52%-48% victory? â€œ

I double dare you Doon. ðŸ˜œ


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## Beezerk (Sep 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			There's talk that, having secured a long extension to Article 50, a GNU would then plan for a 2nd referendum followed by a general election. This could see it in power for up to a year, as oppose to the caretaker's couple of weeks.
		
Click to expand...

A second referendum worries me more than leaving without a deal, playing with fire imo.
Image the division if it were to happen, it would be far far worse than it currently is.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			How do you know, because Boris says so ?

That's just a wind up, playground stuff and it's not working as a tactic. Even a lot of Tory MPs and members were embarrassed by the Corbyn KFC chicken thing. They have agreed to a GE as soon as an extension to Art50 is in place and you know it.

We all know the current situation with 31st Oct /No Deal/Prorouging/finding a legal dodge to get round the Benn bill etc, every dirty trick in the book will be researched by PM.

Opposition parties do not have to jump to a desperate PM the second he says do what I want, they know he's in trouble and is a conniving character so what's a few more weeks. Opposition parties are right imo to try and make sure the Art50 extension is sorted before any election (if PM cannot get a deal by then). It also puts the onus firmly on PM to try and get a deal with EU, something that does not appear to be getting anywhere at the moment. All PMs efforts should be there just now.

PM cares about himself that's why he's hellbent on leaving Oct31 'do or die' and will break/bend the law for it, he stupidly set a red line on it during leadership contest to become PM and has hamstrung himself in doing so. All bluster.

Those deal or no deal deadlines of mid and end October have to be sorted before we go to a GE.....imo. One thing at a time.
		
Click to expand...


What about you Maxie, you want to have a go answering my question in post 14044? 
I know you start hearing Mel Gibson crying â€œFreedomâ€ when you have been pruning too much Laurel!ðŸ˜


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## SocketRocket (Sep 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			How do you know, because Boris says so ?

That's just a wind up, playground stuff and it's not working as a tactic. Even a lot of Tory MPs and members were embarrassed by the Corbyn KFC chicken thing. They have agreed to a GE as soon as an extension to Art50 is in place and you know it.

We all know the current situation with 31st Oct /No Deal/Prorouging/finding a legal dodge to get round the Benn bill etc, *every dirty trick in the book will be researched by PM.*

Opposition parties do not have to jump to a desperate PM the second he says do what I want, they know he's in trouble and is a conniving character so what's a few more weeks. Opposition parties are right imo to try and make sure the Art50 extension is sorted before any election (if PM cannot get a deal by then). It also puts the onus firmly on PM to try and get a deal with EU, something that does not appear to be getting anywhere at the moment. All PMs efforts should be there just now.

PM cares about himself that's why he's hellbent on leaving Oct31 'do or die' and will break/bend the law for it, he stupidly set a red line on it during leadership contest to become PM and has hamstrung himself in doing so. All bluster.

Those deal or no deal deadlines of mid and end October have to be sorted before we go to a GE.....imo. One thing at a time.
		
Click to expand...

Why not, every dirty trick in the book has been researched and used against him.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



*Once again for those not paying attention*

That's a bit of a superior attitude, is it not?
*There has been significant change to the Edinburgh agreement since 2014.
ELEV and the rise of English Nationalism.
UK [England in reality] taking Scotland out of the EU and when the Naesayers said that by voting for them was the ONLY way Scotland could STAY in the EU.
Some Scots people were daft enough to believe the lies that the Naysayers were spinning.

You will lose your pension was a Labour doorstep plan when meeting elderly residents. One of the factors in Labours demise in Scotland.
You cannot use the Â£. another whopper.
You will be forced to drive on the right.
You will lose the Monarchy. Etc Etc.

I think the same scenario is playing out in England with the difference that many are too stubborn to admit they were conned.*

Click to expand...

None of what you say here answers the question whether you think the scenario described is fair. And everyone here knows it is an analogous  scenario in relation to a theoretical, but possible future referendum of Scotland citizens for Scottish independence.
And we are also in no doubt how you would vote.You would be one of the slim majority for independence.
So, trying to be fair, please, - would you go gently into that good night?
Hmmm?


----------



## User62651 (Sep 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why not, every dirty trick in the book has been researched and used against him.
		
Click to expand...

Heat and kitchen, crime and time etc etc.

Seems to be moves afoot for a vote of no confidence sooner than anticipated.

Tell me if Johnson loses and some kind of stand in govt is formed, when a GE does come around will Johnson still be party leader to fight that election? I can't quite follow if that's what Johnson now wants. If he loses a vote of confidence many seem to think that's the end of him politically.
Would he be the first to be PM twice (not continuous) if he did win GE?


----------



## clubchamp98 (Sep 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			this will help settle things down :

The purpose of a "caretaker" government is expanding. The original idea was that, following a successful vote of no confidence against the Johnson government, Mr Corbyn would have a shot at forming a caretaker government.This would have explicit/limited purpose of applying to Brussels for an extension to Article 50 (to stop no deal on October 31st) then calling general election. Both acts to be done in matter of weeks. This is the way the SNP is moving. But LDs don't want Mr Corbyn as caretaker.  Other "caretaker" PMs have been mentioned, all leading "Remain" figures, from K Clarke to M Beckett. But now it's been suggested (see today's Times) that such a figure should not be a "caretaker" but lead a so-called "government of national unity". This is a very different kettle of poisson. There's talk that, having secured a long extension to Article 50, a GNU would then plan for a 2nd referendum followed by a general election. This could see it in power for up to a year, as oppose to the caretaker's couple of weeks.
		
Click to expand...

Would the courts end up telling them what to do.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why not, every dirty trick in the book has been researched and used against him.
		
Click to expand...

This .
The opposition want to fight on their terms.
Changing the law halfway through (benn act) to suit your argument is pretty poor imo. On either side.
The people should vote on no deal not the MPs stopping the choice.
What are they scared of ? The voters.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 28, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



*Heat and kitchen, crime and time etc etc.*

Seems to be moves afoot for a vote of no confidence sooner than anticipated.

Tell me if Johnson loses and some kind of stand in govt is formed, when a GE does come around will Johnson still be party leader to fight that election? I can't quite follow if that's what Johnson now wants. If he loses a vote of confidence many seem to think that's the end of him politically.
Would he be the first to be PM twice (not continuous) if he did win GE?
		
Click to expand...

I can throw that one straight back to you.  You were the one suggesting Boris was using every dirty trick in the book and I put it back thats just what remain MPs have been doing taking over the order paper.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			You seem to be struggling Doon...unable to give a straight answer to a VERY simple question.

Iâ€™ll repeat it...

â€œHow would you feel if the government did their best to prevent  Scottish independence after a 52%-48% victory? â€œ

I double dare you Doon. ðŸ˜œ
		
Click to expand...

Right, now I can understand what you were trying to say I shall answer your question even if you cannot understand my initial reply

I accepted the 2014 result. It was a close call for me as I believed the last minute No Thanks actions of The Vow was made in good faith. [Obviously it was not]
The actions of the Westminster government in backtracking on virtually every promise made to the Scottish electorate after the election I took great exception to.
Like many fence sitters Cameron's actions pushed me on the full support for an Independent Scotland

The 52/48 result you mention is hypothetical and I do not know how to answer it as it would depend on the hypothetical electioneering and the hypothetical actions of the Westminster and Scottish governments once the results had come in.


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## User62651 (Sep 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			What about you Maxie, you want to have a go answering my question in post 14044?
I know you start hearing Mel Gibson crying â€œFreedomâ€ when you have been pruning too much Laurel!ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

Quite content being British and inside the EU, ta very much. You'll have to explain the laurel thing, haven't heard that b4.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 28, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1178005099760799744


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## Fade and Die (Sep 29, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Quite content being British and inside the EU, ta very much. You'll have to explain the laurel thing, haven't heard that b4.
		
Click to expand...

Laurel is one of the most dangerous plants in a British garden...

http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/atoz/prunus_laurocerasus.htm

Be careful out there!


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## Fade and Die (Sep 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Right, now I can understand what you were trying to say I shall answer your question even if you cannot understand my initial reply

I accepted the 2014 result. It was a close call for me as I believed the last minute No Thanks actions of The Vow was made in good faith. [Obviously it was not]
The actions of the Westminster government in backtracking on virtually every promise made to the Scottish electorate after the election I took great exception to.
Like many fence sitters Cameron's actions pushed me on the full support for an Independent Scotland

The 52/48 result you mention is hypothetical and I do not know how to answer it as it would depend on the hypothetical electioneering and the hypothetical actions of the Westminster and Scottish governments once the results had come in.
		
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Well I suppose you did your best!ðŸ˜‚


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Well I suppose you did your best!ðŸ˜‚
		
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I missed the answer there can you translate.


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## Dando (Sep 29, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I missed the answer there can you translate.
		
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It was blah blah blah waffle waffle waffle


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 29, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I missed the answer there can you translate.
		
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Get a grip man, you are greeting because I would not give an answer to an obscure hypothetical question that suits your narrow political view.


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## Foxholer (Sep 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why not, every dirty trick in the book has been researched and used against him.
		
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With that amendment, I'd agree! Just as I'd agree that he has, or has probably contemplated every (dirty?) trick in the book to achieve his aim! And as long as it's legal to do so, there's nothing wrong with that imo! The 'verdict' on whether it's deemed 'proper' to do so will come via the ballot box!

Personally, I believe it's the ONLY way the referendum result will be implemented!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't have a Scooby if he knows as much as you or not.   Maybe it would be better to ask him rather than me
		
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Wasnâ€™t actually asking you - but if you have a scoobies about Gatt24 is he - in your opinion - right or wrong about leaving with no deal and trading immediately under terms of Gatt24.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			With that amendment, I'd agree! Just as I'd agree that he has, or has probably contemplated every (dirty?) trick in the book to achieve his aim! And as long as it's legal to do so, there's nothing wrong with that imo! The 'verdict' on whether it's deemed 'proper' to do so will come via the ballot box!

Personally, I believe it's the ONLY way the referendum result will be implemented!
		
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You have altered my post and posted on my comment out of context. That was a responce to someone else saying Boris had used every dirty trick, I used their terminology back regarding the way opposition had done the same.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 29, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I missed the answer there can you translate.
		
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The answer was quite clear to the trained ear, Loon said â€œ unfortunately Brexit has exposed the massive hypocrisy of both the SNP (ðŸ˜) and myself in that we are rabid pursuers of independence for Scotland but will do our utmost to deny it for the rest of the U.K. the noo!(or some other Scottish word he likes to slip in!â€


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Get a grip man, you are greeting because I would not give an answer to an obscure hypothetical question that suits your narrow political view. 

Click to expand...

Post 14064 has sorted it thanks.

Pretty straightforward question I thought.
All questions about the future are hypothetical arenâ€™t they.?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			The answer was quite clear to the trained ear, Loon said â€œ unfortunately Brexit has exposed the massive hypocrisy of both the SNP (ðŸ˜) and myself in that we are rabid pursuers of independence for Scotland but will do our utmost to deny it for the rest of the U.K. the noo!(or some other Scottish word he likes to slip in!â€
		
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Nice insult.
Coming to expect it now from 'people who are not like us'.

Perhaps you could answer me a non-hypothetical question.
Name three differences between UK [England] wanting it's country back and Scotland wanting it's country back.
Please try not to resort to insulting language in your reply.


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## Old Skier (Sep 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nice insult.
Coming to expect it now from 'people who are not like us'.

Perhaps you could answer me a non-hypothetical question.
Name three differences between UK [England] wanting it's country back and Scotland wanting it's country back.
Please try not to resort to insulting language in your reply.
		
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1 It's warmer down here,
2 Scotland can't make real ale
3 Scotland not much cop at football


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## Fade and Die (Sep 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nice insult.
Coming to expect it now from 'people who are not like us'.

Perhaps you could answer me a non-hypothetical question.
Name three differences between UK [England] wanting it's country back and Scotland wanting it's country back.
Please try not to resort to insulting language in your reply.
		
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Donâ€™t be so touchy Doon, you really donâ€™t help yourself â€œpappingâ€ (greet West Cumbrian word that)

 I think a 300 year old union has really made us one nation and cannot be compared with to a 40 year old union to a continental trading block. But honestly trying to answer your question, I cannot find 3 differences, thatâ€™s why I cannot understand your stance. Surely you should support both in principle.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 29, 2019)

This is unbelievable: The MoS claims members of the French Govt helped Remainer MPs draft the Surrender Act and the same MPs are plotting to pass a 2nd Act empowering John Bercow to ask for an extension to the Brexit deadline. (Letâ€™s call that one the Bellender Act.)


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## Hitdaball (Sep 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			This is unbelievable: The MoS claims members of the French Govt helped Remainer MPs draft the Surrender Act and the same MPs are plotting to pass a 2nd Act empowering John Bercow to ask for an extension to the Brexit deadline. (Letâ€™s call that one the Bellender Act.)
		
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Mail on Sunday you say? ðŸ¤¨

This link has been making my day , enjoy your news. 

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 29, 2019)




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## Papas1982 (Sep 29, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nice insult.
Coming to expect it now from 'people who are not like us'.

Perhaps you could answer me a non-hypothetical question.
Name three differences between UK [England] wanting it's country back and Scotland wanting it's country back.
Please try not to resort to insulting language in your reply.
		
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1, the votes showed England wanted independence and Scotland didnâ€™t. 
2, the losing side havenâ€™t made as much noise in Scotland 
3, England didnâ€™t try to stop Scotland leaving.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			This is unbelievable: The MoS claims members of the French Govt helped Remainer MPs draft the Surrender Act and the same MPs are plotting to pass a 2nd Act empowering John Bercow to ask for an extension to the Brexit deadline. (Letâ€™s call that one the Bellender Act.)
		
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I mean if you going to just rip off someone else's words then at least quote your sources and try better than Toby Young.   



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1178049867278684161


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Donâ€™t be so touchy Doon, you really donâ€™t help yourself â€œpappingâ€ (greet West Cumbrian word that)

I think a 300 year old union has really made us one nation and cannot be compared with to a 40 year old union to a continental trading block. But honestly trying to answer your question, I cannot find 3 differences, thatâ€™s why I cannot understand your stance. Surely you should support both in principle.
		
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I am not touchy, having spent 25 years as a senior LGA I am as thick skinned as the thickest skinned thing you can think of.
Thanks for an honest reply though.

I would naturally say that the 300 year old union was pretty one sided in favour of the South of England.
The 40 year old E Union tried to realign many of those differences much more successfully than the UK Union did [ inc Northern England Wales and Ireland]
However...
Look at the bile being directed at Scotland at the moment from the extremist right wing parties in England

They are totally ignoring the fact that approximately 45%* of its residents still support the union. { *that was half a joke btw]


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## User62651 (Sep 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Laurel is one of the most dangerous plants in a British garden...

http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/atoz/prunus_laurocerasus.htm

Be careful out there!
		
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Thanks for that, I think, everyday's a school day!


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## Hobbit (Sep 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wasnâ€™t actually asking you - but if you have a scoobies about Gatt24 is he - in your opinion - right or wrong about leaving with no deal and trading immediately under terms of Gatt24.
		
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Just an off the cuff thought, bit quirky; bearing in mind Juncker's recent comments about a No Deal would also be disastrous for the EU, how about flipping it on its head and saying to the EU if YOU want a deal come and talk to us.

Everything has been about the UK securing a deal but if the EU also need a deal...


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## Mudball (Sep 29, 2019)

Driving down the M25 into Kent and the signs are up.. Good to know that the Govt is doing its bit.  Would be even better if they told us what these changes would be


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## USER1999 (Sep 29, 2019)

These have been about for a month or so. On the M1, M3, M25 minimum. I guess no one knows what the changes, if any will be. Heck, we might not leave. All is to be decided.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff thought, bit quirky; bearing in mind Juncker's recent comments about a No Deal would also be disastrous for the EU, how about flipping it on its head and saying to the EU if YOU want a deal come and talk to us.

Everything has been about the UK securing a deal but if the EU also need a deal...
		
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The Surrender merchants would never agree, they would generate a law saying the EU could have any deal they asked for.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 29, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Driving down the M25 into Kent and the signs are up.. Good to know that the Govt is doing its bit.  Would be even better if they told us what these changes would be 

View attachment 28292

Click to expand...

They are on the A1 in Northumberland as well. Very odd and pretty pointless.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Driving down the M25 into Kent and the signs are up.. Good to know that the Govt is doing its bit.  Would be even better if they told us what these changes would be

View attachment 28292

Click to expand...

They've been all over the motorways for week mate, they do seem a bit odd like.


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## Foxholer (Sep 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You have altered my post and posted on my comment out of context. That was a responce to someone else saying Boris had used every dirty trick, I used their terminology back regarding the way opposition had done the same.
		
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So? I just 'borrowed' most of your post - nothing sinister in that! They ALL use 'every dirty trick' if it helps push their particular pov. And that's totally legit!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff thought, bit quirky; bearing in mind Juncker's recent comments about a No Deal would also be disastrous for the EU, how about flipping it on its head and saying to the EU if YOU want a deal come and talk to us.

Everything has been about the UK securing a deal but if the EU also need a deal...
		
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And I would add itâ€™s also their border problem not just ours.


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## Foxholer (Sep 29, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			And I would add itâ€™s also their border problem not just ours.
		
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However, the Good Friday Agreement adds a complication that is definirely more the UK's problem!


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 29, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			However, the Good Friday Agreement adds a complication that is definirely more the UK's problem!
		
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Yes it is but once you go over the border thatâ€™s their side.
Itâ€™s a political problem


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff thought, bit quirky; bearing in mind Juncker's recent comments about a No Deal would also be disastrous for the EU, how about flipping it on its head and saying to the EU if YOU want a deal come and talk to us.

Everything has been about the UK securing a deal but if the EU also need a deal...
		
Click to expand...

The EU, and indeed such as the German car industry, have stated that the integrity of the single market takes precedence over leaving with a deal.  Yes - the EU may really prefer UK left with a deal - and that by definition would rule out having to trade under WTO Gatt24 - but I donâ€™t see how UK can leave without *any* agreement and then trade with EU under Gatt24.

According to SJavid the EU *have* moved from their position of â€˜no opening of the agreed dealâ€™ - and that is seen as a victory for Johnson and his No Deal exit on 31/10â€™ strategy - as the government seems also to have moved from its â€˜no negotiations until the backstop is completely droppedâ€™ - and I am not aware it has done that yet the government tells us that we are in close negotiation with the EU seeking a deal.

I am easily confused and often wrong - but I donâ€™t think I am wrong pointing out as disingenuous what Redwood is saying about leaving with no deal and immediately trading with the EU under Gatt24.  And yet they continue to spout such stuff.


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 30, 2019)

Very simplistic I know. What is preventing us to leave and then adopt Switzerlandâ€™s position.? Think they have 5 countries bordering them but not one hard border!


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## robinthehood (Sep 30, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			Very simplistic I know. What is preventing us to leave and then adopt Switzerlandâ€™s position.? Think they have 5 countries bordering them but not one hard border!
		
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Ha ha... they still have free movement etc and are even part of the schengen zone


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## Hobbit (Sep 30, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			Very simplistic I know. What is preventing us to leave and then adopt Switzerlandâ€™s position.? Think they have 5 countries bordering them but not one hard border!
		
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I'd rather the UK didn't adopt Switzerland's position. They, like Norway, have to adopt a number of stringent EU laws AND pay an annual lump to the EU for their trade, on top of which try taking a van or lorry into Switzerland without the right paperwork. They're an odd bunch...

For me, the Canada deal, which Tusk offered, was far a better option.


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## Hobbit (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The EU, and indeed such as the German car industry, have stated that the integrity of the single market takes precedence over leaving with a deal.  Yes - the EU may really prefer UK left with a deal - and that by definition would rule out having to trade under WTO Gatt24 - but I donâ€™t see how UK can leave without *any* agreement and then trade with EU under Gatt24.

According to SJavid the EU *have* moved from their position of â€˜no opening of the agreed dealâ€™ - and that is seen as a victory for Johnson and his No Deal exit on 31/10â€™ strategy - as the government seems also to have moved from its â€˜no negotiations until the backstop is completely droppedâ€™ - and I am not aware it has done that yet the government tells us that we are in close negotiation with the EU seeking a deal.

I am easily confused and often wrong - but I donâ€™t think I am wrong pointing out as disingenuous what Redwood is saying about leaving with no deal and immediately trading with the EU under Gatt24.  And yet they continue to spout such stuff.
		
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Mmm, the German car industry. That's the same industry that sells a BMW 118 into the UK for about Â£17.5k and, allegedly, will see a price hike of 10% post-Brexit. Wonder how they sell into Egypt for Â£11.6k?

You're right about the complexities of Gatt24, and of Redwood's simplistic argument, but both the EU and the UK are members of the WTO. Gatt24 isn't the only aspect of trade under WTO rules.


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'd rather the UK didn't adopt Switzerland's position. They, like Norway, have to adopt a number of stringent EU laws AND pay an annual lump to the EU for their trade, on top of which try taking a van or lorry into Switzerland without the right paperwork. They're an odd bunch...

For me, the Canada deal, which Tusk offered, was far a better option.
		
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OK, you are far more knowledgeable than most so what went wrong with The Canada deal?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			Very simplistic I know. What is preventing us to leave and then adopt Switzerlandâ€™s position.? Think they have 5 countries bordering them but not one hard border!
		
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If they don't have any form of 'hard' border then who were these folks at the Swiss border that required my son and his band to go through what they had in the band van?  Maybe he was mistaken and it wasn't border control.  And it was a few years ago so things might have changed.  However google being my friend (my bold)

_In 2009, Switzerland became a participant in the Schengen Area with the acceptance of an association agreement by popular referendum in 2005. This means that there are no passport controls on Switzerland's borders with its neighbours t*hough customs controls continue to apply. *_


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## Hobbit (Sep 30, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			OK, you are far more knowledgeable than most so what went wrong with The Canada deal?
		
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Nothing. I read the full text of the deal a couple of months back. Gobsmacked May didn't say yes to it - David Davies did say yes to it but was knocked back by May. And he has said yes to it in recent months.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, the German car industry. That's the same industry that sells a BMW 118 into the UK for about Â£17.5k and, allegedly, will see a price hike of 10% post-Brexit. Wonder how they sell into Egypt for Â£11.6k?

You're right about the complexities of Gatt24, and of Redwood's simplistic argument, but both the EU and the UK are members of the WTO. Gatt24 isn't the only aspect of trade under WTO rules.
		
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Come on Bri - Redwood's argument is not simply simplistic - it is completely disingenuous and misleading.

I bought a German car this weekend.  I bought it on PCP.  If that car were to increase in cost to the dealer by say Â£2000 would all of that cost be passed on to me?  I doubt it...but even if it was I strongly suspect that the increment in my monthly PCP payment would not be such that I could not afford to buy it - or that it would put me off.  We know why we buy German cars.  We are happy to pay a premium in any case.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			OK, you are far more knowledgeable than most so what went wrong with The Canada deal?
		
Click to expand...

Do you not see that you have just done what so many Leave voters do all the time.  Make an aspirational assertion about the future - one largely built on sand and the promises of such as Johnson, Gove and R-M - and when it is rebutted by the facts - as Bri has laid on in this instance - they do not counter him with the facts supporting their assertion - usually because they are sparse at best - but immediately change tack and look for something else to justify their Leave position. 

And so it just goes on and on - as Johnson and his mates continue to pump out DomCumm Wormtongue's stuff to feed the cycle


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## Hobbit (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Come on Bri - Redwood's argument is not simply simplistic - it is completely disingenuous and misleading.

I bought a German car this weekend.  I bought it on PCP.  If that car were to increase in cost to the dealer by say Â£2000 would all of that cost be passed on to me?  I doubt it...but even if it was I strongly suspect that the increment in my monthly PCP payment would not be such that I could not afford to buy it - or that it would put me off.  We know why we buy German cars.  We are happy to pay a premium in any case.
		
Click to expand...

To be honest, I doubt Redwood knows the detail of Gatt24, just as Johnson didn't when he was caught out. Was he lying? We know how Gatt24 works because we've read it, but does Redwood? From what I've seen in Westminster in recent years, most of them are thick shysters.

As for your PCP, isn't the car considered sold at the start of PCP, as its done through finance? Why would a car that's been sold then be subject to a price increase?

I thought people mainly buy cars based on what they like and can afford? I've had German cars from '98 to '18. The build quality is, in the main, good but they are basic. For choice, I wouldn't buy VW, Audi or BMW.


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## robinthehood (Sep 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'd rather the UK didn't adopt Switzerland's position. They, like Norway, have to adopt a number of stringent EU laws AND pay an annual lump to the EU for their trade, on top of which try taking a van or lorry into Switzerland without the right paperwork. They're an odd bunch...

For me, the Canada deal, which Tusk offered, was far a better option.
		
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Hmmmm it was Canada plus plus plus ....
What are the plus bits ? A bit of free movement? Perhaps adopting any number of EU rules. 
All pretty unpalatable for many considering immigration and taking back control are such big things.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			To be honest, I doubt Redwood knows the detail of Gatt24, just as Johnson didn't when he was caught out. Was he lying? We know how Gatt24 works because we've read it, but does Redwood? From what I've seen in Westminster in recent years, most of them are thick shysters.

As for your PCP, isn't the car considered sold at the start of PCP, as its done through finance? Why would a car that's been sold then be subject to a price increase?

I thought people mainly buy cars based on what they like and can afford? I've had German cars from '98 to '18. The build quality is, in the main, good but they are basic. For choice, I wouldn't buy VW, Audi or BMW.
		
Click to expand...

The car is indeed sold and bought.   But if it had been 10% more expensive to the dealer - let's say Â£2000 - then I would *still *have bought it as the increment in the monthly PCP payment would have been relatively insignificant (with the dealership probably absorbing a good bit of it) and not sufficient to put me off.  And I suspect the same will apply to most UK buyers of German cars.

The fact that Johnson clearly hadn't read Gatt24 when interviewed by Neil during the leadership campaign didn't surprise me.  But to suggest that Redwood hasn't *yet *read it and is speaking out of ignorance - sorry I just don't buy.  He must know that he is being at best disingenuous - but actually closer to lying - about what UK could do under Gatt24 given a no deal exit.

But Redwood's words sate the appetite of those who *need *fed on an ongoing basis to support their Leave position (not all do) - especially given Redwood is one of their flag-bearers.  And it is a pity that many will simply take his words at face value rather than go read Gatt24 themselves - it's not exactly long and difficult.

Likewise the conspiracy guff that was published about the Benn Act in this weekend's Sunday Mail.  Indeed the QC who drafted the bill - David Lock - has since called out what was written as out-and-out Lies.  And he pointed out that even the article stated (hidden way down and deep) that #10 could produce no evidence in support.  But those seeking evidence of establishment stitch up and connivance with the EU will have lapped it up - and in their minds it is now 'the truth' - no matter what Lock says.

The Lie is half way around the world before the Truth gets out of bed.

BTW - the spec level of the new VW Golf is probably more than I need - and as mentioned - Mrs Hogie has always wanted a new one


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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ha ha... they still have free movement etc and are even part of the schengen zone
		
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My understanding is that they (the Swiss) have 'freedom of movement' *because* *of* their Shengen Area membership. They joined in 2009 following a referendum in 2005.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Just read in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress _by Robert Heinlein (1966) some words that for me resonate today and that on reading them made me smile...

*â€œSovereign," like "love," means anything you want it to mean; it's a word in dictionary between "sober" and "sozzled.â€*


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## robinthehood (Sep 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			My understanding is that they (the Swiss) have 'freedom of movement' *because* *of* their Shengen Area membership. They joined in 2009 following a referendum in 2005.
		
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Thats a Totally irrelevant reply but thanks anyway.


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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Thats a Totally irrelevant reply but thanks anyway.
		
Click to expand...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Thats a Totally irrelevant reply but thanks anyway.
		
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I actually think it relevant in part as the Swiss people clearly recognised the value of freedom of movement despite the cost and other impacts.


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I actually think it relevant in part as the Swiss people clearly recognised the value of freedom of movement despite the cost and other impacts.
		
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They only value it within the EU.


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## woody69 (Sep 30, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			OK, you are far more knowledgeable than most so what went wrong with The Canada deal?
		
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It required the annexing of Northern Ireland to the EU and that was unacceptable to the DUP


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			They only value it within the EU.
		
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eh?  Scratches head....


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## spongebob59 (Sep 30, 2019)

exactly :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1178670030650822657


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## SocketRocket (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			eh?  Scratches head....
		
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They dont open their borders to the world.


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## robinthehood (Sep 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			They dont open their borders to the world.
		
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Just all the other EU countries, if you're in one of those ,bar a few, then it's easy to travel to CH without passport checks.


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do you not see that you have just done what so many Leave voters do all the time.  Make an aspirational assertion about the future - one largely built on sand and the promises of such as Johnson, Gove and R-M - and when it is rebutted by the facts - as Bri has laid on in this instance - they do not counter him with the facts supporting their assertion - usually because they are sparse at best - but immediately change tack and look for something else to justify their Leave position.

And so it just goes on and on - as Johnson and his mates continue to pump out DomCumm Wormtongue's stuff to feed the cycle 

Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just read in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress _by Robert Heinlein (1966) some words that for me resonate today and that on reading them made me smile...

*â€œSovereign," like "love," means anything you want it to mean; it's a word in dictionary between "sober" and "sozzled.â€*

Click to expand...

SILH

Are you an actual mind reader?

Reading my thoughts. Stick to facts please


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## Old Skier (Sep 30, 2019)

Good to see SILH and his childish name calling returned to the forum again.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just read in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress _by Robert Heinlein (1966) some words that for me resonate today and that on reading them made me smile...

*â€œSovereign," like "love," means anything you want it to mean; it's a word in dictionary between "sober" and "sozzled.â€*

Click to expand...

What made you decide to post that crock of balderdash ðŸ™„


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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Just *all the other EU countries*, if you're in one of those ,*bar a few*, then it's easy to travel to CH without passport checks.
		
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Make your mind up!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Good to see SILH and his childish name calling returned to the forum again.
		
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Yes, although surprised to see him posting again after numerous pledges not to, the content remains as acidic and unbalanced as ever.  He seems to like to use poetry now to berate the Tory  destroyers of all things dear to him, maybe I could offer a line from Kipling's 'If'  :

'If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools'.


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## robinthehood (Sep 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Make your mind up!

Click to expand...

Great bantz
I thought you'd be busy telling me how not all EU countries are in the schengen zone and how not all schengen zone countries are  in the EU.
Instead it's  just a boring little troll post.


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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Great bantz
		
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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, although surprised to see him posting again after numerous pledges not to, the content remains as acidic and *unbalanced* as ever.  He seems to like to use poetry now to berate the Tory  destroyers of all things dear to him, maybe I could offer a line from Kipling's 'If'  :

'If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools'.
		
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Since when has 'balance' been a pre-requisite for posting on this - or any - forum. Especially one with Brexit as a topic!

There's certainly no evidence of 'balance' in your own, nor several/many other posters posts! But that's fine by me, up to the point where they seem (to me) more like bullying, which seems (to me) to happen far too often!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Since when has 'balance' been a pre-requisite for posting on this - or any - forum. Especially one with Brexit as a topic!

There's certainly no evidence of 'balance' in your own, nor several/many other posters posts! But that's fine by me, up to the point where they seem (to me) more like bullying, which seems to happen far too often!
		
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He has a completely blinkered view of anything Tory or Brexit that lacks the slightest modicum of balance.  I have a Brexit biased view but I dont post diatribes that support my viewpoint, if I did no doubt you would be the first on here to point out my imbalanced thinking as obsesive.  Responding to SLH in the sarcastic MO he uses himself is not bullying, its retalitory,  if it was then I could often throw the challenge in your direction.


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## Bunkermagnet (Sep 30, 2019)

Its good to see a reflection of the stupid behaivour in the HoS on here as well.
And we wonder why nothing gets sorted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Good to see SILH and his childish name calling returned to the forum again.
		
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Name calling?  I'll call Cummings whatever I want if that's what you mean - as he is to my mind simply a 'wormtongue' twisting the thoughts and actionsd of our PM.  And don't you think that that rather adds balance to the absurd 'Spartans' the ERG style themselves as these days - or to the 'Surrender' Act as Johnson refers to the Benn Act.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What made you decide to post that crock of balderdash ðŸ™„
		
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You clearly haven't read any Robert Heinlein then - talking of his words as a crock of balderdash when...

_Robert A. Heinlein was the most influential science fiction writer of his era, an influence so large that, as Samuel R. Delany notes, "modern critics attempting to wrestle with that influence find themselves dealing with an object rather like the sky or an ocean." He won the Hugo Award for best novel four times, a record that still stands. *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was the last of these Hugo-winning novels, and it is widely considered his finest work. *_

And as I posted - I read it and smiled, recognising the resonance today and it's relevance to the Brexit debate.

Interestingly Heinlein also talks in this novel (of 1966) of _Fake News - _being information that the inhabitants of a Lunar colony (Loonies) transmit to Earth to cover up their revolt against the authorities.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, although surprised to see him posting again after numerous pledges not to, the content remains as acidic and unbalanced as ever.  He seems to like to use poetry now to berate the Tory  destroyers of all things dear to him, maybe I could offer a line from Kipling's 'If'  :

'If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools'.
		
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If circumstances, facts or my understanding changes -  then I have a democratic right to change my mind


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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He has a completely blinkered biased view of anything Tory or Brexit that lacks the slightest modicum of balance...
		
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Given my 'adjustment' for your own (also completely acceptable) bias, that's a view he's perfectly entitled to have! 'Balance' is not a pre-requisite of any post, for the reasons I mentioned!


SocketRocket said:



			...I have a Brexit biased view but I dont post diatribes that support my viewpoint...
		
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H'mm! I seem to remember using the term 'twaddle' several times where you have! 


SocketRocket said:



			...I have a Brexit biased view...no doubt you would be the first on here to point out my imbalanced thinking as obsesive...
		
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Certainly not! You are entitled to your view, just as anyone else to theirs!


SocketRocket said:



			...Responding to SLH in the sarcastic MO he uses himself is not bullying, its retalitory,...
		
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There have certainly been times when it seems that way though, especially when, it seems, a 'team approach' is used to attack a quite reasonable, if 'biased', pov!


SocketRocket said:



			...bullying...if it was then I could often throw the challenge in your direction.
		
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Feel free to (appropriately) challenge (whatever you actually mean by that) me whenever you deem appropriate!


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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			...
I thought you'd be busy telling me how not all EU countries are in the schengen zone and how not all schengen zone countries are  in the EU.
...
		
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Now that WAS a truly irrelevant post!


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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If circumstances, facts or my understanding changes -  then I have a democratic right to change my mind 

Click to expand...

I can't remember Kipling writing that!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Since when has 'balance' been a pre-requisite for posting on this - or any - forum. Especially one with Brexit as a topic!

There's certainly no evidence of 'balance' in your own, nor several/many other posters posts! But that's fine by me, up to the point where they seem (to me) more like bullying, which seems (to me) to happen far too often!
		
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Thankyou.

However I remain open to being informed of all or any outcomes that will - in the year after we leave with no deal - definitely and noticeably benefit my family - benefits that will counter-balance what I factually *know* that I will lose - such as freedom of movement to holiday and work; freedom to drive without additional insurance; freedom to not have to worry about health insurance.  Just have to look at the government adverts on TV telling me what I have to be doing different for the evidence of what I will lose.

And I have said before that if a deal was agreed by Johnson that had wide support amongst the Leave community then I might well be inclined to support it - or vote for it if it came to a referendum (is that balanced?).  Because I absolutely see the need for something to happen and compromise for a coming together to heal the horrible wounds Brexit has caused in society.  But I fear (and I have also said this before) that no matter the deal agreed - Farage and the ERG will call it a sell-out - a Surrender Deal - and that will result in many in the Leave camp rejecting such a deal and supporting Farage and the BT in the next GE.

What am I supposed to do then?  Support or vote *for *a deal on something I strongly disagree with, when those who should support it *reject *it.  And I find that with my vote or support in seeking a compromise to heal, we end up with something I never wanted - with Farage and his crew having significant representation in Westminster - a dreadful prospect that will only divide our divided country even more.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I can't remember Kipling writing that! 

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Neither can I - but it's true...


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## Hobbit (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Name calling?  I'll call Cummings whatever I want if that's what you mean - as he is to my mind simply a 'wormtongue' twisting the thoughts and actionsd of our PM.  And don't you think that that rather adds balance to the absurd 'Spartans' the ERG style themselves as these days - or to the 'Surrender' Act as Johnson refers to the Benn Act.
		
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Hugh, there's been the odd occasion when you've admitted you haven't qualified the piece you've posted up. Calling someone Wormtongue does seem a little rich when you yourself have admitted you post stuff up without finding out if its true. 

It goes against credibility. Post up a falsehood, I won't say you're lying because feel you accept it at face value as it suits 'your eye,' and being found out just blows your credibility to bits. Which is a shame as you do post up some good stuff, e.g. your piece on Johnson getting tied in knots over Gatt24 para10.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If circumstances, facts or my understanding changes -  then I have a democratic right to change my mind 

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Not if the Benn act gets there first as it cuts down your choices halfway through the argument.


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## Foxholer (Sep 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			...Calling someone Wormtongue does seem a little rich...
		
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I'm prepared to allow anyone call folk in that (spin doctor etc) position (left or right; Leave or Remain) just about anything they like! Wormtoungue seems eminently appropriate!
If anyone considers that hypocrisy, I'll happily plead guilty!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm prepared to allow anyone call folk in that (spin doctor etc) position (left or right; Leave or Remain) just about anything they like! Wormtoungue seems eminently appropriate!
If anyone considers that hypocrisy, I'll happily plead guilty!
		
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Thats just fine your codpiecefaceness ðŸ™ƒ


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 30, 2019)

The utter shambles that is the Scottish Branch of the Tory party.
Left hand, let me introduce you to right hand.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ad/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_iosshare_AtLY4C8ylKvd


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## Fade and Die (Oct 1, 2019)

Interesting what you can find on the internet!

Also more hypocrisy from Swinson...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...-video-Liberal-Democrat-conference-referendum


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 1, 2019)

Ah but that advert was when the Lib-Dems where pretendy Tories.
That fiasco proved so popular that it nearly ended their party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40599992
Brexit supporting aristocrat jailed for 12 weeks for death threats to Gina Miller
That seemed to slip quietly under eyes of the the press


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## Fade and Die (Oct 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ah but that advert was when the Lib-Dems where pretendy Tories.
That fiasco proved so popular that it nearly ended their party

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40599992
Brexit supporting aristocrat jailed for 12 weeks for death threats to Gina Miller
That seemed to slip quietly under eyes of the the press
		
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Dictionary definitionsâ€¦

Liberal (adjective): willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from oneâ€™s own; open to new ideas.

Democratic (adjective): relating to or supporting democracy or its principles.

By these defintions, neither Swinson nor her party are â€˜liberalâ€™ not â€˜democratic.â€™ Be a bit weird to go into an election calling your group â€˜The Partyâ€™ though. Swinson and her mob, more than a third of whom were elected as members of other parties but refuse to stand in by-elections, are about as democratic as the old East Germany (German Democratic Republic) or North Korea (Democratic Peopleâ€™s Republic of Korea).


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## IanM (Oct 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40599992
That seemed to slip quietly under eyes of the the press
		
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Under the eyes?  And you post a link to the biggest news organisation in World?  Ok


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm prepared to allow anyone call folk in that (spin doctor etc) position (left or right; Leave or Remain) just about anything they like! Wormtoungue seems eminently appropriate!
If anyone considers that hypocrisy, I'll happily plead guilty!
		
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Thankyou - From what I hear and read of Cummings' influence over the PM's thinking, words and actions - Wormtongue is no more an inappropriate description of Cummings that our PM calling the Benn Act the Surrender Act - because he thinks it appropriate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Dictionary definitionsâ€¦

Liberal (adjective): willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from oneâ€™s own; open to new ideas.

Democratic (adjective): relating to or supporting democracy or its principles.

By these defintions, neither Swinson nor her party are â€˜liberalâ€™ not â€˜democratic.â€™ Be a bit weird to go into an election calling your group â€˜The Partyâ€™ though. Swinson and her mob, more than a third of whom were elected as members of other parties but refuse to stand in by-elections, are about as democratic as the old East Germany (German Democratic Republic) or North Korea (Democratic Peopleâ€™s Republic of Korea).
		
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Except, as you know, if Swinson were ever to be in a position to enact the policy (very unlikely), the LibDems would have been voted into government by _The People _following a General Election.  And so revoking Article 50 would be _The Will of The People._


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thankyou - From what I hear and read of Cummings' influence over the PM's thinking, words and actions - Wormtongue is no more an inappropriate description of Cummings that our PM calling the Benn Act the Surrender Act - because he thinks it appropriate.
		
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You seem to have missed my point. I compared you to Wormtongue because of your own admission of occasionally posting stuff up without qualifying it in the slightest. If you think that gives you some higher moral ground, I feel sorry for you. 

That doesn't mean I don't think most politicians wouldn't know the truth if it was engraved on a plank and then they were hit repeatedly with it.


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## Foxholer (Oct 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats just fine your codpiecefaceness ðŸ™ƒ
		
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I hadn't realised we'd met!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



*He has a completely blinkered view of anything Tory or Brexit that lacks the slightest modicum of balance. * I have a Brexit biased view but I dont post diatribes that support my viewpoint, if I did no doubt you would be the first on here to point out my imbalanced thinking as obsesive.  Responding to SLH in the sarcastic MO he uses himself is not bullying, its retalitory,  if it was then I could often throw the challenge in your direction.
		
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Not true.  I have posted very clearly that I *could *support a Deal if I felt that it would receive very significant support from those who voted to Leave.  

I would struggle if it did not, and as a result Farage and his crew gained significant numbers of MPs in a subsequent General Election - an outcome that I consider one that would simply create greater division in the country - greater even than that we have now.

I admit that I struggle with the idea of supporting *anything* that Johnson and such as Raab, Cleverly, Gove, Patel and Javid come up with as I consider their words to be exacerbating the anger and division in the country at the moment.  But I could probably get over that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You seem to have missed my point. I compared you to Wormtongue because of your own admission of occasionally posting stuff up without qualifying it in the slightest. If you think that gives you some higher moral ground, I feel sorry for you.

That doesn't mean I don't think most politicians wouldn't know the truth if it was engraved on a plank and then they were hit repeatedly with it.
		
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I am assuming that you know the character Grima Wormtongue in Lord of the Rings - and the negative and poisonous influence he had over Theoden - the King of the Rohans.

Johnson describing the Benn Act as the Surrender Act simply feeds the anger and division.  He has said now many times that he will continue to call it that because he feels that that is what it does.  Likewise, given everything we know about Cummings - and indeed from his own mouth on Brexit and the Leave Campaign - I do not see it as inappropriate to describe Cummings as Wormtongue - as to me that is precisely the character he is.


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am assuming that you know the character Grima Wormtongue in Lord of the Rings - and the negative and poisonous influence he had over Theoden - the King of the Rohans.

Johnson describing the Benn Act as the Surrender Act simply feeds the anger and division.  He has said now many times that he will continue to call it that because he feels that that is what it does.  Likewise, given everything we know about Cummings - and indeed from his own mouth on Brexit and the Leave Campaign - I do not see it as inappropriate to describe Cummings as Wormtongue - as to me that is precisely the character he is.
		
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In case you hadn't noticed.... "Hobbit"


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In case you hadn't noticed.... "Hobbit"
		
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LOL - doh! 

I might pretend that my post was not aimed at you but at others who might not get the reference.  But that would be disingenuous of me


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

If what we hear from Ireland on the UK's proposal for a replacement to the Backstop - what happened to the promise and assurance of frictionless trade between Ireland/EU and the UK?

We've been told for 4 years that there is a straightforward answer to managing the border issues that would enable frictionless trade without any formal physical border controls - but trusted trader etc.  Well if what is proposed is true - these controls might not be actually sitting on the border...however...

Today we discover the truth - that the frictionless trade between the UK and the EU that the Leave Campaign assured us would be easily achievable without formal physical border controls may not be achievable.  Let's see what we actually propose.

Strikes me that, if true, this cannot be a serious proposal by the UK - but simply one that enables Johnson to claim that they have proposed a workable solution that has been rejected by the EU - as it surely will be - and he and his Leave buddies can blame the EU for No Deal.  And unfortunately I suspect that so many who support the Leave position will simply believe that the solution proposed (if true) is workable and consistent with what was promised - and they will be led to blame the EU.


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If what we hear from Ireland on the UK's proposal for a replacement to the Backstop - what happened to the promise and assurance of frictionless trade between Ireland/EU and the UK?

We've been told for 4 years that there is a straightforward answer to managing the border issues that would enable frictionless trade without any formal physical border controls - but trusted trader etc.  Well if what is proposed is true - these controls might not be actually sitting on the border...however...

So today we discover that the frictionless trade between the UK and the EU that the Leave Campaign assured us would be easily achievable without formal physical border controls may not be achievable.  Let's see what we actually propose.

Strikes me that, if true, this cannot be a serious proposal by the UK - but simply one that enables Johnson to claim that they have proposed a workable solution that has been rejected by the EU - as it surely will be - and he and his Leave buddies can blame the EU for No Deal.  And unfortunately I suspect that so many who support the Leave position will simply believe that the solution proposed (if true) is workable and consistent with what was promised - and they will be led to blame the EU.
		
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Hugh, this is becoming so tedious it beggar's belief. I agree that to have a solution on the border on the 31st Oct is unachievable but how many times have links been posted up, in response to raising this numerous times in the past, of solution currently being used on EU borders?

The reasons for those solutions not being placed on the NI border is obvious. There's been no agreement reached about the border BUT that doesn't mean the solutions aren't available. Why would either side put those solutions in place if the other side hasn't agreed to them.

Do yourself a favour, and everyone else, acknowledge that the solutions already exist and are in use elsewhere. Maybe ask the question why the EU won't accept those solutions?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Hugh, this is becoming so tedious it beggar's belief. I agree that to have a solution on the border on the 31st Oct is unachievable but how many times have links been posted up, in response to raising this numerous times in the past, of solution currently being used on EU borders?

The reasons for those solutions not being placed on the NI border is obvious. There's been no agreement reached about the border BUT that doesn't mean the solutions aren't available. Why would either side put those solutions in place if the other side hasn't agreed to them.

Do yourself a favour, and everyone else, acknowledge that the solutions already exist and are in use elsewhere. Maybe ask the question why the EU won't accept those solutions?
		
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Sorry Bri - but I just don't get that.

With _No Deal_ any solution HAS to be achievable on 31st October.  And as a Backstop following a transition period it is unacceptable as it does not deliver frictionless trade and relies upon physical border controls.  

If the solutions you insist are available then why is it that we hear that the government is proposing physical border control stations as part of their replacement for the Backstop - albeit they would be 10miles from the border on both sides.  Why are they not proposing the solutions that you insist are readily available - there would be two years to sort out how to make them work if they were workable?  Plus we said that the UK would never put in place any form of physical border control - and if true that seems to be precisely what is being proposed.

The Swiss border...(as another poster asked why not the Swiss solution)

https://infacts.org/bbc-lets-brexiters-swiss-border-untruths-go-unchecked/


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry Bri - but I just don't get that.

If the solutions you insist are available then why is it that we hear that the government is proposing physical border control stations as part of their replacement for the Backstop - albeit they would be 10miles from the border on both sides.

The Swiss border...

https://infacts.org/bbc-lets-brexiters-swiss-border-untruths-go-unchecked/

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Two things to cross border traffic. People & trade.

The Common Travel Area Agreement covers that. Both the UK and Ireland have said that agreement is still on the statute books and will continue to be honoured.

Trade; electronic, as I did for years, and as others on here say they do. Incoming you can have the sensor solution that on the Estonia and Norwegian border. Maybe the UK have offered a different solution, as you quoted, because the EU have said no to the solutions already in place elsewhere.

Honestly, you can bring up as many different articles as you like. As far as I'm concerned there are *proven* solutions on EU borders elsewhere. I lay the blame solely at the EU's door for this one and I'm 99% certain they are just being obtuse in the hope it forces the UK to be tied in.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 1, 2019)

^^^^^^^ what he just said, with knobs on.


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## Old Skier (Oct 1, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I hadn't realised we'd met! 

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More Wurzel Gummage mate,  glad you changed your socks.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 1, 2019)

I am currently going through my 'Ready for No Deal Brexit' freight checklist, freight companies and the govt are ramping this up. First off, it will be far more complicated to ship goods to France post no deal Brexit than it is to ship to Bolivia, Malawi, USA, India etc. The EU are making this unecessarily complicated but hey, it will create lots of lovely admin jobs. Second, the point of most of what I will be doing is to provide information to freight companies regarding my shipments so that they can give them to the customs in the EU in advance, allowing the vehicles to drive straight through. The odd one will be randomly checked but the big multi-national companies will likely be allowed to drive straight through based on trust in the advance paperwork being given. If it is being accepted there then why not on the Irish border? Yes the odd random check, as per tunnel checks if anyone has been through one, but the idea that every person or vehicle needs to be checked is like something out of the history books, well, 70's / 80's anyway. Freight has moved on.


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## Old Skier (Oct 1, 2019)

Funny how the solution offered by the UK Government is already in operation to a certain extent by the Irish Border Authorities and Irish Garda. They have even made a TV series based on it FFS.


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## IanM (Oct 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Honestly, you can bring up as many different articles as you like. As far as I'm concerned there are *proven* solutions on EU borders elsewhere. I lay the blame solely at the EU's door for this one and I'm 99% certain they are just being obtuse in the hope it forces the UK to be tied in.
		
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Countless crossings are made freely elsewhere in the EU......... the only thing about Ireland/Ulster is trying to p*revent one of the VERY FEW countries that pays in to the pot from leaving*.   Simple as that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Funny how the solution offered by the UK Government is already in operation to a certain extent by the Irish Border Authorities and Irish Garda. They have even made a TV series based on it FFS.
		
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OK - simple question then

Does the solution that we may be proposing deliver _*frictionless trade *_and *no physical border controls*.  Because for four years that is what we have been told we can have between the UK and Ireland/EU.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - simple question then

Does the solution that we may be proposing deliver _*frictionless trade *_and *no physical border controls*.  Because for four years that is what we have been told we can have between the UK and Ireland/EU.
		
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The EU are the ones insistent on a physical border control. We can propose all we like, if they refuse to consider it in order to 'protect the single market' then that is a problem at their door. We CAN have it, they are choosing not to allow it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The EU are the ones insistent on a physical border control. We can propose all we like, if they refuse to consider it in order to 'protect the single market' then that is a problem at their door. We CAN have it, they are choosing not to allow it.
		
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Apparently our proposal includes physical border control...?  We said the UK would *never *put in place any physical border controls.  So why the heck are we proposing them - unless, and as, we *know *that the proposal will be rejected out of hand by the EU.  So it is not a serious proposal?


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## IanM (Oct 1, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The EU are the ones insistent on a physical border control. We can propose all we like, if they refuse to consider it in order to 'protect the single market' then that is a problem at their door. We CAN have it, they are choosing not to allow it.
		
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See previous response.  The need your tax money or they can't survive.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Apparently our proposal includes physical border control...?  We said the UK would *never *put in place any physical border controls.  So why the heck are we proposing them - unless, and as, we *know *that the proposal will be rejected out of hand by the EU.  So it is not a serious proposal?
		
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Just post a link to todayâ€™s James o Brien show.... it will save you the effort of typing.ðŸ‘


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## woody69 (Oct 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Incoming you can have the sensor solution that on the Estonia and Norwegian border.
		
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Is this a typo? Since when does Estonia border with Norway?


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## drdel (Oct 1, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Is this a typo? Since when does Estonia border with Norway?
		
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I think its to be read as two examples.


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## Old Skier (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - simple question then

Does the solution that we may be proposing deliver _*frictionless trade *_and *no physical border controls*.  Because for four years that is what we have been told we can have between the UK and Ireland/EU.
		
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I'm stating that the Irish already carrys out a system that cannot be described as frictionless. The UK Gov has stated that it would be frictionless on the UK side. I know it's not in vogue within the EU but it's not up to the UK to tell Ireland on how it controls access across their side of the border.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Apparently our proposal includes physical border control...?  We said the UK would *never *put in place any physical border controls.  So why the heck are we proposing them - unless, and as, we *know *that the proposal will be rejected out of hand by the EU.  So it is not a serious proposal?
		
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Hopefully not wasting my typing fingers here. As I read it currently the proposal is:

Goods into and out of the EU generally will be split into exempt and non exempt goods. Non exempt are likely to be alcohol, cigarettes, oil, as examples. There will be others of course. The exempt items will declare before setting off from the factory, let's say in Cork, and will drive straight through to, say, Belfast without being stopped. There may be some form of tracker on the vehicle or device that triggers when it crosses the border, similar to pre-pay discs that you can use to go through the Tyne Tunnel, Mersey Tunnel, and I would guess Dartford Crossing. The bulk of items crossing back and forth will be classed as exempt and there will be no checks other than random ones in either the factory of origin or the destination. No physical border checks.

For exempt items it becomes more sensitive so the proposal is for there to be no actual checks on the border, too problematic in Ireland sad to say. They are talking about specific clearance centres away from the actual border. No passport checks, no barriers to be lifted and put down, but centres that drivers will go to and their vehicles checked there. As I mentioned in a previous post, if you drive through the Tyne Tunnel lorries are pulled over randomly and are checked to make sure the contents and paperwork match and are safe to go through. This will be a similar set up. No physical border but buildings, warehouses that drivers will go to well inside N. Ireland for checks. 

If I am reading it incorrectly I am sure someone will correct me. It seems a pretty reasonable proposal. It just needs to be agreed in principle for the whole deal to go through. They then have the transition period in which to build the centres, put this in place.


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## woody69 (Oct 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think its to be read as two examples.
		
Click to expand...

But Estonia has a hard border with Russia with checks and soldiers etc and Norway is part of European Economic Area, so totally different scenario to what would be if the UK exited without a deal? 

Where can I learn more about this sensor solution?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Oops - took opportunity to watch an interview this morning of Johnson for the Sun - in which he stated that the talk of the border control centres were 'stuff that went in previously' and that he hasn't yet presented our final proposed solution.  Though he does start to talk at one point as if discussions on the proposal have been underway before quickly adding about future discussions on our proposal once submitted, and I'll not read too much into that or pretend it was a slippo-tongue.

And so we shall see.  An electronic and process-based solution that is in place and used for border control elsewhere - or a solution that has to include border trade management offices.

One we know the details of the solution we can make a judgement on any decision the EU make on it.  And if ur solution seems reasonable and workable, given the constraints of the GFA and the Leave promise of frictionless trade, then if the EU reject it I will accept that they really don't want UK to leave (and we know of course that they don't) and that they will do whatever they can to keep us in - even if that '_whatever' _is unreasonable.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Hopefully not wasting my typing fingers here. As I read it currently the proposal is:

Goods into and out of the EU generally will be split into exempt and non exempt goods. Non exempt are likely to be alcohol, cigarettes, oil, as examples. There will be others of course. The exempt items will declare before setting off from the factory, let's say in Cork, and will drive straight through to, say, Belfast without being stopped. There may be some form of tracker on the vehicle or device that triggers when it crosses the border, similar to pre-pay discs that you can use to go through the Tyne Tunnel, Mersey Tunnel, and I would guess Dartford Crossing. The bulk of items crossing back and forth will be classed as exempt and there will be no checks other than random ones in either the factory of origin or the destination. No physical border checks.

For exempt items it becomes more sensitive so the proposal is for there to be no actual checks on the border, too problematic in Ireland sad to say. They are talking about specific clearance centres away from the actual border. No passport checks, no barriers to be lifted and put down, but centres that drivers will go to and their vehicles checked there. As I mentioned in a previous post, if you drive through the Tyne Tunnel lorries are pulled over randomly and are checked to make sure the contents and paperwork match and are safe to go through. This will be a similar set up. No physical border but buildings, warehouses that drivers will go to well inside N. Ireland for checks.

If I am reading it incorrectly I am sure someone will correct me. It seems a pretty reasonable proposal. It just needs to be agreed in principle for the whole deal to go through. They then have the transition period in which to build the centres, put this in place.
		
Click to expand...

If that is what s proposed, how are border trade management centres situated away from the border not still border control - and it is border control that is the issue as I understand it; and how can they not impede flow of trade across the border - thereby not delivering the frictionless trade that was promised and assured.

The very existence of border trade control centres - no matter where they are situated - are manifestations of a divided Ireland, and no matter what you or I might think about that there are some on the island of Ireland who will view these buildings as unacceptable and legitimate targets.  Further - will these centres operate 24x365? If not then queues?

But I will wait to hear from the government.


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## drdel (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If that is what s proposed, how are border trade management centres situated away from the border not still border control - and it is border control that is the issue as I understand it; and how can they not impede flow of trade across the border - thereby not delivering the frictionless trade that was promised and assured.

The very existence of border trade control centres - no matter where they are situated - are manifestations of a divided Ireland, and no matter what you or I might think about that there are some on the island of Ireland who will view these buildings as unacceptable and legitimate targets.  Further - will these centres operate 24x365? If not then queues?

But I will wait to hear from the government.
		
Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If that is what s proposed, how are border trade management centres situated away from the border not still border control - and it is border control that is the issue as I understand it; and how can they not impede flow of trade across the border - thereby not delivering the frictionless trade that was promised and assured.

The very existence of border trade control centres - no matter where they are situated - are manifestations of a divided Ireland, and no matter what you or I might think about that there are some on the island of Ireland who will view these buildings as unacceptable and legitimate targets.  Further - will these centres operate 24x365? If not then queues?

But I will wait to hear from the government.
		
Click to expand...

This type of 'inland' infrastructure has been around for donkeys' years - bonded warehouses (Whisky, tobacco etc), FreePorts...


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## spongebob59 (Oct 1, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1179001877024972800


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## spongebob59 (Oct 1, 2019)

Labourâ€™s John McDonnell now saying confidence vote unlikely before European Council meeting mid-October (via 
@MarkerJParker
)


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If that is what s proposed, how are border trade management centres situated away from the border not still border control - and it is border control that is the issue as I understand it; and how can they not impede flow of trade across the border - thereby not delivering the frictionless trade that was promised and assured.

The very existence of border trade control centres - no matter where they are situated - are manifestations of a divided Ireland, and no matter what you or I might think about that there are some on the island of Ireland who will view these buildings as unacceptable and legitimate targets.  Further - will these centres operate 24x365? If not then queues?

But I will wait to hear from the government.
		
Click to expand...

For starters Ireland is divided already, north and south. If it wasn't we would not be having this whole issue.

The sensitivity is about being on the actual border, being a barrier. These are not borders or barriers, they are as drdel has perfectly described them. The majority of goods will not go into these centres, they will flow normally. People will flow normally. People will not be stopped going about their day to day business, it is commerical freight companies only that will be affected and most are used to doing this type of thing.

What hours will they be open? No idea, it depends on how much trade will be non exempt, how much trade is going through. I suspect enough money will be thrown at this that lorries will not be backed up, not here of all places.


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If that is what s proposed, how are border trade management centres situated away from the border not still border control - and it is border control that is the issue as I understand it; and how can they not impede flow of trade across the border - thereby not delivering the frictionless trade that was promised and assured.

The very existence of border trade control centres - no matter where they are situated - are manifestations of a divided Ireland, and no matter what you or I might think about that there are some on the island of Ireland who will view these buildings as unacceptable and legitimate targets.  Further - will these centres operate 24x365? If not then queues?

But I will wait to hear from the government.
		
Click to expand...

Do You have a direct line with Boris?

From som elf your quotes I gained that impression or perhaps the remain side although I have not yet worked out whether you want to stay or remain!!


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## Old Skier (Oct 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			This type of 'inland' infrastructure has been around for donkeys' years - bonded warehouses (Whisky, tobacco etc), FreePorts...
		
Click to expand...

Don't be silly, what has that to do with border issues and control of goods.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			Do You have a direct line with Boris?

From som elf your quotes I gained that impression or perhaps the remain side although I have not yet worked out whether you want to stay or remain!!
		
Click to expand...

I want to stay and remain.


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## drdel (Oct 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Don't be silly, what has that to do with border issues and control of goods. 

Click to expand...

Inland customs/border clearance usually with high security and customs staff on-site.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 1, 2019)

Comedy hour

Diane Abbott will do #PMQs tomorrow, Labour has announced. So not Thornberry, but not potential leadership successor Becky Long-Bailey either...


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## Dando (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I want to stay and remain.
		
Click to expand...

why didn't you say so earlier


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## drdel (Oct 1, 2019)

the border between the USA and Canada is about 5000 miles (Inc Alaska) - it seems to work !!

IMO the EU are simply digging in more out of the stubborn dogma of 'winning' the argument than any logic that benefits the r27 and UK, while also using juvenile 'leaks' to deflect blame and get the upper hand. How can anyone have sensitive discussions with people who continually run off at the mouth?

"Loose lips, sink ships" WW2


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			the border between the USA and Canada is about 5000 miles (Inc Alaska) - it seems to work !!

IMO the EU are simply digging in more out of the stubborn dogma of 'winning' the argument than any logic that benefits the r27 and UK, while also using juvenile 'leaks' to deflect blame and get the upper hand. How can anyone have sensitive discussions with people who continually run off at the mouth?

"Loose lips, sink ships" WW2
		
Click to expand...

This is correct!
Plus the opposition changing the law ( Benn act) after three years of getting nowhere.
This weakens our negotiations as you must be able to say no and walk away from a bad deal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Nissan concern over No Deal.  Donâ€™t they understand Project Fear isnâ€™t working...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nderland-factory-no-deal-future-a9128331.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			This type of 'inland' infrastructure has been around for donkeys' years - bonded warehouses (Whisky, tobacco etc), FreePorts...
		
Click to expand...

In which case I await Johnsonâ€™s plan to roll that out for the EU/NI border.  If it will work Johnson will suggest something like it.  And no need for physical infrastructure which would be great.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Dando said:



			why didn't you say so earlier
		
Click to expand...

Eh? I want to Stay and Remain.

I might also support a Leave Deal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is correct!
Plus the opposition changing the law ( Benn act) after three years of getting nowhere.
This weakens our negotiations as you must be able to say no and walk away from a bad deal.
		
Click to expand...

The Benn Act is a new law - it does not change an existing law as far as I am aware. The new law was not an opposition law - it was a law made by parliament.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Supreme Court did not change the law.  

The Supreme Court interpreted and ruled on the basis of the existing law, in the context of the Johnson Prorogation - of which there had not been a precedent of anything similar - indeed I am not aware that any previous prorogation had been subject of judicial review.  That being the case it is not known whether judicial review of a previous prorogation might have had the same outcome as this one.  It might have - it might not have.  We donâ€™t and can never know.
		
Click to expand...

He didn't mention the Supreme Court he mentioned the Benn Act which effectively took No Deal off the table and handed the initiative back to the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			He didn't mention the Supreme Court he mentioned the Benn Act which effectively took No Deal off the table and handed the initiative back to the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I know - I realised I was commenting on the wrong law and so deleted my reference to it - sorry.  But my observation remains true I think.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nissan concern over No Deal.  Donâ€™t they understand Project Fear isnâ€™t working...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nderland-factory-no-deal-future-a9128331.html

Click to expand...

â€œWhile we donâ€™t comment on speculative scenarios, our plans for Qashqai production in Sunderland have not changed,â€ a company spokesperson said.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

Time limit the backstop - interesting


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			â€œWhile we donâ€™t comment on speculative scenarios, our plans for Qashqai production in Sunderland have not changed,â€ a company spokesperson said.
		
Click to expand...

Does not mean they are not concerned.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know - I realised I was commenting on the wrong law and so deleted my reference to it - sorry.  But my observation remains true I think.
		
Click to expand...

The default in law was no deal if a deal canâ€™t be negotiated was my understanding.
So the Benn act has changed the law.


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Is this a typo? Since when does Estonia border with Norway?
		
Click to expand...

It borders Russia. They have sensors on the rail track and at the road crossings which detect sensors on the containers. Its up to the seller and buyer to ensure the goods don't get stopped by ensuring that they have logged the consignment electronically and an RFID sensor on the container.

It was a BBC piece on their evening news and website. They also did a very good piece on all the EU borders, including Turkey, which doesn't have quite the infrastructure yet. They have a concern with Norway about smuggling of luxury good, e.g. alcohol, and fear more smuggling in NI/Ireland.

Also, if you look at the EU's own website they have a project running currently which, if it finishes on target, will see all borders managed electronically by the end of 2024. They are rolling out current technology across the EU, but for some reason its not good enough for the NI/Ireland.


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## Mudball (Oct 1, 2019)

I learnt today... 

Q>> When is a hard border not a hard border 
A>> When the checkpoint is 5-10miles away from the actual border...

Does that mean, anything in the 5-10 mile 'buffer zone' has been ceeded to ROI/EU?


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## drdel (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In which case I await Johnsonâ€™s plan to roll that out for the EU/NI border.  If it will work Johnson will suggest something like it.  And no need for physical infrastructure which would be great.
		
Click to expand...

We could  do it (there are already some in the UK)  but despite it working on their other borders they are dead set against it. Dogma reigns.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			The default in law was no deal if a deal canâ€™t be negotiated was my understanding.
So the Benn act has changed the law.
		
Click to expand...

I think it actually superseded what was in the Exit Act rather than changed the exit Act - but get your drift.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			We could  do it (there are already some in the UK)  but despite it working on their other borders they are dead set against it. Dogma reigns.
		
Click to expand...

Or you could say that the Good Friday Agreement reigns...


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## Hobbit (Oct 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think it actually superseded what was in the Exit Act rather than changed the exit Act - but get your drift.
		
Click to expand...

Think you're right from the UK side but it will still need the EU27 to approve the extension.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or you could say that the Good Friday Agreement reigns...
		
Click to expand...

But why? I must be missing something. If, as already said by both the UK and Irish govts, the Common Travel Agreement will still be in force, and as Johnson said earlier today trade could be done electronically, what's the problem?

I know its going round in circles but I just don't see the problem. But that's been said countless times.


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## Old Skier (Oct 1, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Think you're right from the UK side but it will still need the EU27 to approve the extension.



But why? I must be missing something. If, as already said by both the UK and Irish govts, the Common Travel Agreement will still be in force, and as Johnson said earlier today trade could be done electronically, what's the problem?

I know its going round in circles but I just don't see the problem. But that's been said countless times.
		
Click to expand...

It's a problem because the EU want it to be a problem which seems to suit those that insist we remain.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It's a problem because the EU want it to be a problem which seems to suit those that insist we remain.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly .
This is why it wasnâ€™t brought up in the referendum until we voted to leave.


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## robinthehood (Oct 1, 2019)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...for-most-bastards-in-one-place-20190930189388


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nissan concern over No Deal.  Donâ€™t they understand Project Fear isnâ€™t working...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nderland-factory-no-deal-future-a9128331.html

Click to expand...

Nissan are just scaremongering, in all probability they are only looking for LBJ to top up May's bung and lay off some staff without causing a stushie.


----------



## woody69 (Oct 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			the border between the USA and Canada is about 5000 miles (Inc Alaska) - it seems to work !!

IMO the EU are simply digging in more out of the stubborn dogma of 'winning' the argument than any logic that benefits the r27 and UK, while also using juvenile 'leaks' to deflect blame and get the upper hand. How can anyone have sensitive discussions with people who continually run off at the mouth?

"Loose lips, sink ships" WW2
		
Click to expand...

I don't quite understand what you are imagining, but there is significant infrastructure on the US / Canadian border at the major crossings including checkpoints, areas for marshalling lorries and overhead gantries. Lorries are stopped at the border and there are immigration controls.


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## woody69 (Oct 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It borders Russia. They have sensors on the rail track and at the road crossings which detect sensors on the containers. Its up to the seller and buyer to ensure the goods don't get stopped by ensuring that they have logged the consignment electronically and an RFID sensor on the container.

It was a BBC piece on their evening news and website. They also did a very good piece on all the EU borders, including Turkey, which doesn't have quite the infrastructure yet. They have a concern with Norway about smuggling of luxury good, e.g. alcohol, and fear more smuggling in NI/Ireland.

Also, if you look at the EU's own website they have a project running currently which, if it finishes on target, will see all borders managed electronically by the end of 2024. They are rolling out current technology across the EU, but for some reason its not good enough for the NI/Ireland.
		
Click to expand...

But there is significant infrastructure for vehicles that cross the border by roads in Estonia / Russia. If the solution is so good, why don't they employ the same for the road crossings? Whilst the UK/ROI may be able to implement the rail sensor solution for rail crossings, it doesn't remove the need for infrastructure and that's the whole problem right?

And the EU have said the backstop is a contingency until a solution is found to remove the necessary border infrastructure with countries outside the EU, such as the one you have outlined on the EU's own website would look to resolve. The problem we have is that is at least 5 years away


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It's a problem because the EU want it to be a problem which seems to suit those that insist we remain.
		
Click to expand...

OK - but we knew about this before the vote - we knew how the EU would act towards the border as a solution had to work with the GFA and the SM & CU.  We were told by Leave it would not be a problem - that concerns over difficulties in reaching agreement with the EU over the border were Project Fear.

The government can't claim that the EU have changed their position.  They have not - they are holding to what they said they would hold to.  And for us much as we might complain that the EU have not budged - then it appears we too have not budged that much - if at all - from May's Lancaster House Red Lines - and these were not *explicitly *set out prior to the vote.  It was up to the Leave campaign to at least have an idea of a solution to the border that was compliant with what we knew the EU would not budge on.

Of course the border is a problem - it is complete nonsense to suggest otherwise.  In any case - we will see today the government's solution to this non-problem.  I suspect it will be a non-solution - a non-starter.  But we'll see.  It should be obvious to all who care to understand the solution whether it is realistic and so if rejected by the EU whether or not they are simply being obstructive.

I suspect that it will be so complicated that most of us won't have a clue what it means, and will simply follow the line of those we listen to.

And so I am guessing that it will be rejected by the EU; and the Government will walk away saying BAFO - and will wait for the EU to budge; and they won't.  And on 17th October there will be no agreement.  And on the 19th October Johnson will activate the plan to circumvent the Benn Act.  Because that is what Cummings planned all along.  And the EU will be blamed for our failure to come up with a sensible and workable solution to the border - and we will leave with no deal agreed - and the EU will be blamed for the No Deal exit - even although many actually want to leave with no deal so they should be thanking the EU.  Oh what a tangled web we have weaved.

Looking forward to being proved wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 2, 2019)

woody69 said:



			But there is significant infrastructure for vehicles that cross the border by roads in Estonia / Russia. If the solution is so good, why don't they employ the same for the road crossings? Whilst the UK/ROI may be able to implement the rail sensor solution for rail crossings, it doesn't remove the need for infrastructure and that's the whole problem right?

And the EU have said the backstop is a contingency until a solution is found to remove the necessary border infrastructure with countries outside the EU, such as the one you have outlined on the EU's own website would look to resolve. The problem we have is that is at least 5 years away
		
Click to expand...

I really don't get why we would propose what sounds like an incredibly complicated solution to the border if straightforward solutions as Bri has talked about are already implemented and are out there.  We simply propose these solutions with the evidence that they work.  And we will then see whether the EU is being deliberately obstructive and bloody minded over the border.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 2, 2019)

The EU negotiators seem to have lost patience with LBJ and cast him adrift.

Going to be a couple of interesting days ahead.

Patel gets cheered by the misguided at Manchester for ending UK citizens right to freedom of movement...sad day for normal human beings.


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## drdel (Oct 2, 2019)

Its 'reported' the Remain supporters wish to install Hammond by impeaching the PM - Tories on self destruct route !


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## spongebob59 (Oct 2, 2019)

Can't see that happen ing.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I really don't get why we would propose what sounds like an incredibly complicated solution to the border if straightforward solutions as Bri has talked about are already implemented and are out there.  We simply propose these solutions with the evidence that they work.  And we will then see whether the EU is being deliberately obstructive and bloody minded over the border.
		
Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1179154814631989248


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its 'reported' the Remain supporters wish to install Hammond by impeaching the PM - Tories on self destruct route !
		
Click to expand...

There's been many names thrown into the hat including Ken Clarke and my personal favourite option John Bercow.  As it would be worth that just to see some people's heads explode in anger


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## Old Skier (Oct 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The EU negotiators seem to have lost patience with LBJ and cast him adrift.

Going to be a couple of interesting days ahead.

Patel gets cheered by the misguided at Manchester for ending UK citizens right to freedom of movement...sad day for normal human beings.
		
Click to expand...

I presume you are talking about freedom of movement in a very small part of the world


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## woody69 (Oct 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I really don't get why we would propose what sounds like an incredibly complicated solution to the border if straightforward solutions as Bri has talked about are already implemented and are out there.  We simply propose these solutions with the evidence that they work.  And we will then see whether the EU is being deliberately obstructive and bloody minded over the border.
		
Click to expand...

Quite simply because they don't exist yet. All countries that border the EU that are not part of the EEA have infrastructure at the border for major crossings including checkpoints, areas for marshaling lorries and overhead gantries. Lorries are stopped at the border and there are immigration controls. Whilst there are some technological efficiencies in place, such as the rail sensors Hobbit mentioned, it doesn't take away the fact these border controls are in place and that is the issue with the Irish border. The backstop was the only really workable solution, which the EU suggested sat within the Irish sea. It was the UK that then asked to include the whole of the UK, which is a point the EU conceded when they agreed to that change.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 2, 2019)

So the court case was well worth it then 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1179331525348937731


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## Mudball (Oct 2, 2019)

Sometimes FB throws up an interesting videos.  One where Farag gets pranked. 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2725159394184534


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Sometimes FB throws up an interesting videos.  One where Farag gets pranked.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2725159394184534



Click to expand...

Thats as interesting as PMQs today


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 2, 2019)

Ireland now basically the lead player in EU Brexit negotiations......â€¦..well that 'taking back control' thingy went well.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 2, 2019)

Jezza the red has described the new deal as ' worse than Teresa Mays '

Thought that would be impossible


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Jezza the red has described the new deal as ' worse than Teresa Mays '
...
		
Click to expand...

To (perhaps mis-)quote someone from another political storm...'Well he would, wouldn't he'!

Btw. Who is Teresa Mays?  I've even (almost) forgotten Theresa May!


----------



## IanM (Oct 2, 2019)

And today we learned how much Jo costs.  But you have to look hard to find out


----------



## Colonel Bogey (Oct 3, 2019)

I can't find anything about the money and freedom of movement in reports about BJ's idea. Has anyone else?


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## ger147 (Oct 3, 2019)

I know this has nothing to do with Brexit but rather than start a new political thread, I thought I would post this here.

There have been countless posts here about Brexit, bashing MP's from all sides and in some cases deserved. This is a wee reminder that each and every MP is also a human being and they are not all lying, cheating scumbags.

I've been an avid follower of politics for many years and this is one of the best, most moving and courageous contributions I have ever seen in the HoC's and I urge you all to watch it.

The MP making the speech is Rosie Duffield MP.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 3, 2019)

I heard an MP from the RoI being interviewed yesterday. He was railing against the Johnson plan, being entirely against any form of customs check even if nowhere near a border. The plan was not acceptable to him, he was quite grand about it. The interviewer then asked what would happen if the EU rejected the proposal and the UK left without a deal. 'Oh, there would have to be border checks' . 

So, the option is watered down border checks or full on border checks. Perhaps the Irish and the EU need to look at this as a least worst option rather than holding out for something that has been rejected so frequently and clearly that it is obviously a dead idea. The perfect scenario is not achievable for either side, it is compromise time.


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## Old Skier (Oct 3, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I know this has nothing to do with Brexit but rather than start a new political thread, I thought I would post this here.

There have been countless posts here about Brexit, bashing MP's from all sides and in some cases deserved. This is a wee reminder that each and every MP is also a human being and they are not all lying, cheating scumbags.

I've been an avid follower of politics for many years and this is one of the best, most moving and courageous contributions I have ever seen in the HoC's and I urge you all to watch it.

The MP making the speech is Rosie Duffield MP.







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Was an exceptional contribution which all MPs should learn from. The unfortunate lady has had personal experience of the problem.


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## USER1999 (Oct 3, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I heard an MP from the RoI being interviewed yesterday. He was railing against the Johnson plan, being entirely against any form of customs check even if nowhere near a border. The plan was not acceptable to him, he was quite grand about it. The interviewer then asked what would happen if the EU rejected the proposal and the UK left without a deal. 'Oh, there would have to be border checks' .

So, the option is watered down border checks or full on border checks. Perhaps the Irish and the EU need to look at this as a least worst option rather than holding out for something that has been rejected so frequently and clearly that it is obviously a dead idea. The perfect scenario is not achievable for either side, it is compromise time.
		
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But they (EU) are still holding out for us not to leave, and hence no border. Why compromise, if there is still the slightest chance that by not compromising so, we don't leave.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 3, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			I can't find anything about the money and freedom of movement in reports about BJ's idea. Has anyone else?
		
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There is nothing in his letter regarding those issues. The letter purely concentrates on the issue with Ireland. That must be seen as the key stumbling block.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 3, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			But they (EU) are still holding out for us not to leave, and hence no border. Why compromise, if there is still the slightest chance that by not compromising so, we don't leave.
		
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I get that. It is a big game of chicken, played with peoples livelihoods.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 3, 2019)

Challenging interview 

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/iain-dale-takes-on-european-parliament-vp/


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## spongebob59 (Oct 3, 2019)

The US has responded to the EUâ€™s WTO over-ruled move to illegally subsidise Airbus. In retaliation, the US will levy tariffs on $7.5 billion of goods it imports from the EU, notably including Scotch whiskey. Thanks to Brussels favouring Airbus Scotch will be hit with 25% tariffs, up from zero, in their largest market. The US accounts for over a fifth of total global Scotch exports. _The whiskey industry wouldnâ€™t be facing this damaging hit if the UK had already left the EUâ€¦_


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## Mudball (Oct 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The US has responded to the EUâ€™s WTO over-ruled move to illegally subsidise Airbus. In retaliation, the US will levy tariffs on $7.5 billion of goods it imports from the EU, notably including Scotch whiskey. Thanks to Brussels favouring Airbus Scotch will be hit with 25% tariffs, up from zero, in their largest market. The US accounts for over a fifth of total global Scotch exports. _The whiskey industry wouldnâ€™t be facing this damaging hit if the UK had already left the EUâ€¦_

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Hahaha..  look out for the exemptions coming soon.. remember Scotland is Trumps motherland.  She moved to US because there was no EU at that time (thank God)


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## spongebob59 (Oct 3, 2019)

Jeremy Corbyn hints that Labour MPs could lose the whip if they back Boris Johnson's Brexit deal in the Commons 'Deal or no deal they want a Trump Brexit that will crash our economy. No Labour MP could support such a reckless deal' Around 20 Labour MPs are willing to back it...


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## ger147 (Oct 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Jeremy Corbyn hints that Labour MPs could lose the whip if they back Boris Johnson's Brexit deal in the Commons 'Deal or no deal they want a Trump Brexit that will crash our economy. No Labour MP could support such a reckless deal' Around 20 Labour MPs are willing to back it...
		
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If this current trend for removing the whip continues, the official opposition could soon be a group of orphaned independent MP's.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 3, 2019)

It should have been me.....


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## Mudball (Oct 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			It should have been me..... 






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Very casual...what happened to that power chain around her neck?


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## spongebob59 (Oct 3, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Very casual...what happened to that power chain around her neck?
		
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It got flushed


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## Foxholer (Oct 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The US has responded to the EUâ€™s WTO over-ruled move to illegally subsidise Airbus. In retaliation, the US will levy tariffs on $7.5 billion of goods it imports from the EU, notably including Scotch whiskey. Thanks to Brussels favouring Airbus Scotch will be hit with 25% tariffs, up from zero, in their largest market. The US accounts for over a fifth of total global Scotch exports. _The whiskey industry wouldnâ€™t be facing this damaging hit if the UK had already left the EUâ€¦_

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Not the complete story though....

Quoting a paragraph from this article - https://www.ft.com/content/de3f9c12-e3a0-11e9-9743-db5a370481bc 
'Yet Wednesdayâ€™s WTO decision will not be the end of the story. In a few months, the WTO is expected to set out the level of punitive tariffs the EU can impose on US imports, possibly amounting to several billion dollars, in retaliation for subsidies that led to lost sales for Airbus.'

So, effectively, both the US and EU administrations will receive money, via tariffs, from 'the other side's manufacturers, but neither Airbus nor Boeing suffer! Totally bizarre!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			It should have been me..... 






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She knows that the Tories goose is now well and truly cooked.

Wonder why the DUP absconded today.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2019)

As suspected.  Something that seems at first look pretty complex and difficult ti understand.

Yes - of course I am cynical - but we don't have to read far to spot the message the government wants to put over to Leave voters

_A Fair and Reasonable Compromise: UK Proposals..._

I fear that for many the _complexity _will be equivalenced with _cleverness_ and the difficulty in understanding the detail and impact on Northern Ireland and Eire will be such that the title will be enough.  And so when the ERG and the DUP agree it - and the EU find that they can't - these first five words will have the required impact when blame for leaving with No Deal is being apportioned.

However - I have to say that my initial reaction was positive - in that maybe the government *have *managed to come up with a clever solution - one not at all obvious or previously considered.  And maybe it is.  I must read and understand,  though what of the rest of May's agreement that some here tell me was terrible I don't know if it is all still there - or whether this mitigates some of the other issues.

I have to also note that the letter itself starts _'There is now very little time...' _when all along Johnson and Friends have been telling us when he prorogued parliament that there was loads of time to agree a deal.

Also took some schadenfreudian pleasure from listening to Farage struggling a bit with his thoughts and words rather on LBC last night - as he feared that the government has pulled a rabbit out of the hat that parliament and the EU will agree to - and _that _- he knows - would probably spell the death knell for his Brexit Party (hopefully).


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## USER1999 (Oct 3, 2019)

But as long as there is a remain possibility on the table it is in the interest of the EU to not accept the proposal.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 3, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			But as long as there is a remain possibility on the table it is in the interest of the EU to not accept the proposal.
		
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Seems that way, their desperation stinks


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## drdel (Oct 3, 2019)

IMO we, in the UK, seem to be under the illusion the upper levels in EU/ Brussels want us to stay. Verhofstadt, Tusk, Marcon, Juncker's replacement etc. want to the UK 'tied in' and extract cash BUT they don't want us as a member frustrating their Federal plans. They are quite happy to shackle our ability to operate internationally but not outside their structure and rules but they don't want us to having any voice.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			But as long as there is a remain possibility on the table it is in the interest of the EU to not accept the proposal.
		
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This is the crux of the matter. As the Government have been saying, we need no deal as a real option for the EU to engage in a genuine attempt to stop it.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 3, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1179802787686879232


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Seems that way, their desperation stinks 

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Stinks no more than the obsession some have with leaving on 31/10 regardless of how close to agreement UK and EU might be (See Steve Baker last night on Newsnight).  Not a week - not a day...absurd.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 3, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1179804006605979648


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			This is the crux of the matter. As the Government have been saying, we need no deal as a real option for the EU to engage in a genuine attempt to stop it.
		
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And so the ERG and the DUP will vote to accept it - even though they might not agree with it - because they know the EU will reject it (as designed by Wormtongue DomCumm) and so Johnson and cronies plus the ERG can blame the EU for a No Deal Brexit.

Though for many Leave voter 'blaming' the EU for a No Deal is daft as it delivers for them what they want.  They should be thanking the EU.  But as a No Deal break will be anything but 'clean' - it will be a wrenched apart tear - and these are never clean. 

Plus put up something that the EU just cannot accept - and then blame the EU for border controls when the UK will have instigated and then finished off the process that will mean that - stinks.

The only upside would be the hopeful extinguishing of the fire burning in Farage and his BP mob - and hopefully the end of the BP


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## Hobbit (Oct 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Stinks no more than the obsession some have with leaving on 31/10 regardless of how close to agreement UK and EU might be (See Steve Baker last night on Newsnight).  Not a week - not a day...absurd.
		
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I agree with this up to a point. If both sides, note both sides, say we are one week/month away from signing a deal, then a delay is acceptable. But if neither side can predict when/if a deal is doable, leave. I'm sure both sides will be very focussed if the UK has already left.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree with this up to a point. If both sides, note both sides, say we are one week/month away from signing a deal, then a delay is acceptable. But if neither side can predict when/if a deal is doable, leave. I'm sure both sides will be very focussed if the UK has already left.
		
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It's not what Baker was being asked.  He was asked if - with days or less to go - it became *obvious *that a deal could be concluded within a couple of days of the 31/10 he'd *at that point *accept an extension to accommodate finalising it.  No No, No.  Utterly absurd.


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## Old Skier (Oct 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not what Baker was being asked.  He was asked if - with days or less to go - it became *obvious *that a deal could be concluded within a couple of days of the 31/10 he'd *at that point *accept an extension to accommodate finalising it.  No No, No.  Utterly absurd.
		
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It's not absurd. It would be political suicide after the noises made about 31st Oct and the possibility of any talks failing.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 4, 2019)

How apt, not sure the current lot are worth this , more like 2 bob.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-10-04...ng-mps-as-chimpanzees-sold-for-record-amount/


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## Hobbit (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not what Baker was being asked.  He was asked if - with days or less to go - it became *obvious *that a deal could be concluded within a couple of days of the 31/10 he'd *at that point *accept an extension to accommodate finalising it.  No No, No.  Utterly absurd.
		
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I can see why he would say that, i.e. to send an unambiguous message to the EU. But Iâ€™d like to think itâ€™s just political posturing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			How apt, not sure the current lot are worth this , more like 2 bob.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-10-04...ng-mps-as-chimpanzees-sold-for-record-amount/

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Don't worry the painting will self destruct next week.


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## drdel (Oct 4, 2019)

To avoid blame I reckon the EU are intending to kick the, already battered , can down the road and drag this farce into 2020.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 4, 2019)

The Irish Teapot speaks out not sure what polls he's reading, must be the Grauniad.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...uty-PM-Simon-Coveney-hits-UK-Brexit-plan.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I can see why he would say that, i.e. to send an unambiguous message to the EU. But Iâ€™d like to think itâ€™s just political posturing.
		
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I hope so also - but there is a lot of posturing going on and I am not sure I can believe a word that anyone is saying.  And so we had this morning Brandon Lewis confirmed the BAFO is Final - but that the government might consider feedback from the EU - but that the offer remained Final...so Mr Lewis - is it final or not?

I still don't really understand the replacement to the backstop - as what Johnson said in his letter to the EU (and that we have seen) is different to what he said in the HoC yesterday - and neither to me seemed consistent with what Greg Hands said on Newsnight last night.  And what of the regulatory alignment aspect and the role of Stormont?  How is that going to work? There are just so many 'what-ifs' that make it difficult to understand the consequences,

But in the end - and though I think leaving is madness - I have to accept that, for whatever their reasons might be, a lot of folks *demand *that we leave.  I might want to remain but what I want is often not the best thing in the long run - I have to understand what the 'right' thing to happen would be.  And in truth the 'right' thing to happen is probably for us to leave - notwithstanding I believe that the man-in-the-street will experience absolutely no benefits whatsoever to counterbalance the negatives that we know will happen - certainly in the short to medium term.

But if Johnson's proposal still has everything else in May's Agreement that I've been told was bad - then it'll still be a bad deal?  And if we leave with a deal that Farage can paint as bad in some ways - then the fire in the bellies of Farage and his BP comrades will burn - and he will convince many that Johnson's deal is bad and that they should vote for the BP - and for me that is *also* (and I'll be nice) a sub-optimal outcome.

And we have the devious cunning duplicity of Cummings guiding Johnson around having to seek an extension if - and when - the EU reject what Johnson has put on the table.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It's not absurd. It would be political suicide after the noises made about 31st Oct and the possibility of any talks failing.
		
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Yes - maybe - but it's not Remain voters fault that Johnson has decided to stand on a chair that has a very shoogly leg and with a noose around his neck - he and the Tory Party have chosen for him to do that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The Irish Teapot speaks out not sure what polls he's reading, must be the Grauniad.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...uty-PM-Simon-Coveney-hits-UK-Brexit-plan.html

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If referring to the Irish Deputy PM as a Teapot is meant to be a funny anglicized pun on his gaelic title - I think you've got the wrong title - Coveney is the TÃ¡naiste - he is not the Taoiseach.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The Irish Teapot speaks out not sure what polls he's reading, must be the Grauniad.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...uty-PM-Simon-Coveney-hits-UK-Brexit-plan.html

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https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...m-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/?removed  These?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - maybe - but it's not Remain voters fault that Johnson has decided to stand on a chair that has a very shoogly leg and with a noose around his neck - he and the Tory Party have chosen for him to do that.
		
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It amuses me that if I made a comment like that about Sturgeon or Corbyn let alone Swinson I would be accused of inciting hatred, you get gnarly if someones called a teapot. . Guess its OK with Boris


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...m-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/?removed  These?
		
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The last poll from 9th Sept shows 52% Remain, 48% Leave. Does that mean we can spend three years arguing over the result and then decide that Remaining is too difficult so we'll Leave?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It amuses me that if I made a comment like that about Sturgeon or Corbyn let alone Swinson I would be accused of inciting hatred, you get gnarly if someones called a teapot. . Guess its OK with Boris
		
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It was your co-leaver who raised the subject of 'suicide' - not me...and both his comment and my response are clearly metaphorical.

And not 'gnarly' about Teapot - just thinking the pun was off the wrong title. So just checking.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...m-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/?removed  These?
		
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Is there any trend?  Of course polls are just snapshots in time.  Though if you take enough snapshots over a fairly short period of time you tend to get a picture forming - if there is one to see.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The last poll from 9th Sept shows 52% Remain, 48% Leave. Does that mean we can spend three years arguing over the result and then decide that Remaining is too difficult so we'll Leave? 

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Why not, if we play this right we can keep this going for decades and ensure that we mostly ignore anything else. Wasn't the EU something like the 5th most important factor to people in the GE before the Brexit vote?  It's now the most important factor and the way we are going it may well be the only factor in any future votes if we stretch it out long enough


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Is there any trend?*  Of course polls are just snapshots in time.  Though if you take enough snapshots over a fairly short period of time you tend to get a picture forming - if there is one to see.
		
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Not really, polls have been proven to be very wrong in the past and will no doubt be very wrong in the future.  I was just linking to an aggregation of polls that superficially backs up Varadkar's words to a certain extent. Although as has been correctly pointed out, we can and no doubt will argue about margins for ever, depending on the point you are trying to prove.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not really, polls have been proven to be very wrong in the past and will no doubt be very wrong in the future.  I was just linking to an aggregation of polls that superficially backs up Varadkar's words to a certain extent. Although as has been correctly pointed out, we can argue about margins for ever.
		
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48-52 either way is too close to call. Those sorts of numbers can easily be swung in a campaign. The interesting question on this would be out of those polled, how many are entrenched in their view, how many are swing voters?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			48-52 either way is too close to call. Those sorts of numbers can easily be swung in a campaign. The interesting question on this would be out of those polled, *how many are entrenched in their view, how many are swing voters*?
		
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In the current climate I'd guess 99.999% to 0.001?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			In the current climate I'd guess 99.999% to 0.001?
		
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Sadly so. The key is probably what the question is? If it was the same question as before or a different one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			48-52 either way is too close to call. Those sorts of numbers can easily be swung in a campaign. The interesting question on this would be out of those polled, how many are entrenched in their view, how many are swing voters?
		
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May be too close to call - but the actual referendum has been called 'decisive'; 'as representing 'the will of the people'.

Plus we hear of 'the largest mandate for anything in British history'; the biggest democratic exercise in our history'.  Well maybe - it depends.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-referendum-not-largest-democratic-exercise/

But no matter...and no matter what might happen - it must happen - regardless.  Brilliant.

The demon entered the Gadarene swine and a madness came upon them - and they charged down the cliff into the sea and drowned.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			May be too close to call - but the actual referendum has been called 'decisive'; 'as representing 'the will of the people'.

Plus we hear of 'the largest mandate for anything in British history'; the biggest democratic exercise in our history'.  Well maybe - it depends.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-referendum-not-largest-democratic-exercise/

But no matter...and no matter what might happen - it must happen - regardless.  Brilliant.

The demon entered the Gadarene swine and a madness came upon them - and they charged down the cliff into the sea.
		
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The system we have, whether this referendum, the Scottish Independence or our systems of Govt, whether UK, Welsh, Scottish or NI only require one side to be larger than the other by the smallest of margins. That could be one seat in a parliament, 0.1% in a referendum. The rhetoric about decisive is just that, same as the hot air given out by all sides in all debates, but like it or not, no amount of wailing and tearing of hair will change the fact that is was the will of the people because leave won, they got more votes. Parliament could have set a 2/3 majority or similar but it didn't. Had remain won 52-48, that would also have been the will of the people, they just didn't.


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## Hobbit (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I hope so also - but there is a lot of posturing going on and I am not sure I can believe a word that anyone is saying.  And so we had this morning Brandon Lewis confirmed the BAFO is Final - but that the government might consider feedback from the EU - but that the offer remained Final...so Mr Lewis - is it final or not?
		
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Just on one point; "is it final or not..." The UK was told for months that the EU wouldn't remove the backstop or reopen the WA, yet of late there's been noises that there is room for change. Nothing is final till the ink is dry on a document.

Both sides are playing the same game in that respect.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Reports coming out of Scottish court case are that Johnson has drafted the letter to be sent to the EU on the 19th October.  It's ready to go.  So what's the cunning plan...

The case is whether Johnson could be jailed if he did not send the letter the Benn Act demands he sends...if no deal agreed by 19th October

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...rder-boris-johnson-to-be-imprisoned-1-5015689


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just on one point; "is it final or not..." The UK was told for months that the EU wouldn't remove the backstop or reopen the WA, yet of late there's been noises that there is room for change. Nothing is final till the ink is dry on a document.

Both sides are playing the same game in that respect.
		
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Yup - that was curious as Johnson said from Day#1 that there would be no negotiation at all until the backstop was removed from the Withdrawal Agreement.  I am not aware that that has happened.  Maybe the semantics are that we have been in discussions until now - and now we will negotiate - if the backstop is removed?  Or not if it is a BAFO.

Someone in government must be feeling really clever about all of this stuff...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The system we have, whether this referendum, the Scottish Independence or our systems of Govt, whether UK, Welsh, Scottish or NI only require one side to be larger than the other by the smallest of margins. That could be one seat in a parliament, 0.1% in a referendum. The rhetoric about decisive is just that, same as the hot air given out by all sides in all debates, but like it or not, no amount of wailing and tearing of hair will change the fact that is was the will of the people because leave won, they got more votes. Parliament could have set a 2/3 majority or similar but it didn't. Had remain won 52-48, that would also have been the will of the people, they just didn't.
		
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Being pedantic - what we are doing is not the will of the people - it is the will of that subset of the people who want it to happen.   My will remains most definitely set against Leaving - though as mentioned - my will is not always the best will for me to act upon.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Being pedantic - what we are doing is not the will of the people - it is the will of that subset of the people who want it to happen.   My will remains most definitely set against Leaving - though as mentioned - my will is not always the best will for me to act upon.
		
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Oh come on!   Not this old chestnut once again, its getting beyond silly now.   The will of the people in a Democracy is what a majority vote for when asked, when we vote in an MP in a General Election the one with the most votes gets elected no matter how close the result, should those who voted for the person who lost feel aggrieved; of course not!    If the referendum result had been reversed by the same amount but parliament refused to accept it and worked in any way possible to change that result by calling for further referendums or saying "We know so much more now" how would you react?   I know the answer to that; you would feel aggrieved and would be posting your diatribes of complaint on here.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			May be too close to call - but the actual referendum has been called 'decisive'; 'as representing 'the will of the people'.

Plus we hear of 'the largest mandate for anything in British history'; the biggest democratic exercise in our history'.  Well maybe - it depends.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-referendum-not-largest-democratic-exercise/

But no matter...and no matter what might happen - it must happen - regardless.  Brilliant.

The demon entered the* Gaberdine* swine and a madness came upon them - and they charged down the cliff into the sea and drowned.
		
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Well, blow me down!  I didn't know Pigs wore raincoats.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 4, 2019)

IF, there is no agreement by the 31st Oct and Boris is sitting in the EU offices at 12 midnight trying to negotiate a deal and he and the EU run out of time can't Boris claim that the EU threw the UK out and it was not him that took us out?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Reports coming out of Scottish court case are that Johnson has drafted the letter to be sent to the EU on the 19th October.  It's ready to go.  So what's the cunning plan...

The case is whether Johnson could be jailed if he did not send the letter the Benn Act demands he sends...if no deal agreed by 19th October

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...rder-boris-johnson-to-be-imprisoned-1-5015689

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Fake news as signs above the motorway have been telling me I need to sort out my freight documentation if I'm going to Europe from the 1st November or something like that. And I believe signs above motorways much more than I do some remoaner peddling fake news.


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## Hobbit (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Being pedantic - what we are doing is not the will of the people - it is the will of that subset of the people who want it to happen.   My will remains most definitely set against Leaving - though as mentioned - my will is not always the best will for me to act upon.
		
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You are in denial. We both know how voting works, and if you need your warped rationale to think it otherwise you've got a very bizarre perception of how society is structured.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh come on!   Not this old chestnut once again, its getting beyond silly now.   The will of the people in a Democracy is what a majority vote for when asked, when we vote in an MP in a General Election the one with the most votes gets elected no matter how close the result, should those who voted for the person who lost feel aggrieved; of course not!    If the referendum result had been reversed by the same amount but parliament refused to accept it and worked in any way possible to change that result by calling for further referendums or saying "We know so much more now" how would you react?   I know the answer to that; you would feel aggrieved and would be posting your diatribes of complaint on here.
		
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I'll be as pedantic as I want over this.  I know what it's supposed to mean,  but not in my name - even although I might end up wanting us to leave with a good deal or even No Deal if it helps keeps Farage and crew away from Westminster.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You are in denial. We both know how voting works, and if you need your warped rationale to think it otherwise you've got a very bizarre perception of how society is structured.
		
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Not in denial at all.  I know what it means.  If I so choose to interpret the will of the people as the will of those who voted to leave then I will do so.  But I won't be told that somehow I am part of it.  I am not.  As said elsewhere - I stand aside and watch as the Gadarene swine charge down the cliff into the sea.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Well, blow me down!  I didn't know Pigs wore raincoats.
		
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Never great to change the wording of someone else's posts.


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## robinthehood (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not in denial at all.  I know what it means.  If I so choose to interpret the will of the people as the will of those who voted to leave then I will do so.  But I won't be told that somehow I am part of it.  I am not.  As said elsewhere - I stand aside and watch as the Gadarene swine charge down the cliff into the sea. 

Click to expand...

It's a fair point ,  its a push to call it the will of the people.  
Kind of overstating it.


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## Hobbit (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not in denial at all.  I know what it means.  If I so choose to interpret the will of the people as the will of those who voted to leave then I will do so.  But I won't be told that somehow I am part of it.  I am not.  As said elsewhere - I stand aside and watch as the Gadarene swine charge down the cliff into the sea. 

Click to expand...

Factually, less than half of the population voted Leave, as we both know. But you know full well how voting works. Your post is utter rubbish and trivialises the UK's democracy. Shame on you for that.

As for the Gadarene swine comment; really? You are equating people with swine? |And you would stand aside and not try and make the best of it for you, your family and society. And your christian values are.... I detest Sunday christians with a passion, and I'd like to think you're better than that.

I do wonder if you've reached the point of psychosis in your viewing of it all.


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## User62651 (Oct 4, 2019)

I ain't got a clue presently what's going to happen so quick look to bookies, see where they think we're heading as they're often 'in the know'.

Since last week Boris now odds on to leave Office in 2019 at odds of 10/11. Converts to 52%. Pretty short odds for a new PM.

Others
No Deal Brexit 4/1.
NO No Deal Brexit (can kicking) 1/5.
Revoke 9/4.

Corbyn, Clarke, Beckett, Swinson, Farage, Starmer in order 1-6 of next PM.
Gove and Raab as 'proper' Tories only 7th and 8th which surprised me.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Never great to change the wording of someone else's posts.
		
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Come on, you know it was a light hearted joke.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'll be as pedantic as I want over this.  I know what it's supposed to mean,  but not in my name - even although I might end up wanting us to leave with a good deal or even No Deal if it helps keeps Farage and crew away from Westminster.
		
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But you're not being Pedantic, you are being incorrect.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I ain't got a clue presently what's going to happen so quick look to bookies, see where they think we're heading as they're often 'in the know'.

Since last week Boris now odds on to leave Office in 2019 at odds of 10/11. Converts to 52%. Pretty short odds for a new PM.

Others
No Deal Brexit 4/1.
NO No Deal Brexit (can kicking) 1/5.
Revoke 9/4.

Corbyn, Clarke, Beckett, Swinson, Farage, Starmer in order 1-6 of next PM.
Gove and Raab as 'proper' Tories only 7th and 8th which surprised me.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics

Click to expand...

I see on paddy power it's 12/5 for us on leaving by the 31st October, deal or no deal.  Which seeing as literally every cabinet member from the PM down has been saying will definitely happen, has got to be worth a flutter. I mean surely the whole cabinet cannot be so sure of something happening that possibly won't?  As if that happens every supporter of Boris will not vote for the conservatives any more as from what I can tell, the only reason they are supporting Boris is because he has promised to deliver Brexit by the end of October.  In which case Farage at 14 to 1 to be the next PM looks a canny bet.


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## Dando (Oct 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But you're not being Pedantic, you are being incorrect.
		
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Remainers are always correct


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## drdel (Oct 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see on paddy power it's 12/5 for us on leaving by the 31st October, deal or no deal.  Which seeing as literally every cabinet member from the PM down has been saying will definitely happen, has got to be worth a flutter. I mean surely the whole cabinet cannot be so sure of something happening that possibly won't?  As if that happens every supporter of Boris will not vote for the conservatives any more as from what I can tell, the only reason they are supporting Boris is because he has promised to deliver Brexit by the end of October.  In which case Farage at 14 to 1 to be the next PM looks a canny bet. 

Click to expand...

I really don't think Farage wants to be PM, it would not be a role he is interested in.


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## Leftie (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			May be too close to call - but the actual referendum has been called 'decisive'; 'as representing 'the will of the people'.

Plus we hear of 'the largest mandate for anything in British history'; the biggest democratic exercise in our history'.  Well maybe - it depends.

But no matter...and no matter what might happen - it must happen - regardless.  Brilliant.

The demon entered the Gadarene swine and a madness came upon them - and they charged down the cliff into the sea and drowned.
		
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And, yet again Hugh, your post adds absolutely *nothing* to this thread.  Just repeats the same old, same old dogma that you have been spouting ad nauseam for the last few years.  Oh.  And you weren't insinuating that leavers are mad pigs who you hope will drown, were you?  If so, very un-Christian.

Imo of course ................


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## chrisd (Oct 4, 2019)

Leftie said:



			And, yet again Hugh, your post adds absolutely *nothing* to this thread.  Just repeats the same old, same old dogma that you have been spouting ad nauseam for the last few years.  Oh.  And you weren't insinuating that leavers are mad pigs who you hope will drown, were you?  If so, very un-Christian.

Imo of course ................
		
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I was going to write pretty  much the same Roger but after some 14,000 posts I think I've come to the conclusion that he is a bit one sided in the argument and I just satisfy myself, when reading his trash, that what HE thinks really doesnt matter one jot ðŸ˜£


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## Dando (Oct 4, 2019)

Leftie said:



			And, yet again Hugh, your post adds absolutely *nothing* to this thread.  Just repeats the same old, same old dogma that you have been spouting ad nauseam for the last few years.  Oh.  And you weren't insinuating that leavers are mad pigs who you hope will drown, were you?  If so, very un-Christian.

Imo of course ................
		
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I just wished he'd sta


chrisd said:



			I was going to write pretty  much the same Roger but after some 14,000 posts I think I've come to the conclusion that he is a bit one sided in the argument and I just satisfy myself, when reading his trash, that what HE thinks really doesnt matter one jot ðŸ˜£
		
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he's more than a "bit" one sided Chris


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## chrisd (Oct 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			he's more than a "bit" one sided Chris
		
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I was in a good mood when I wrote it ðŸ˜‹


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## User62651 (Oct 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see on paddy power it's 12/5 for us on leaving by the 31st October, deal or no deal.  Which seeing as literally every cabinet member from the PM down has been saying will definitely happen, has got to be worth a flutter.* I mean surely the whole cabinet cannot be so sure of something happening that possibly won't?  *As if that happens every supporter of Boris will not vote for the conservatives any more as from what I can tell, the only reason they are supporting Boris is because he has promised to deliver Brexit by the end of October.  In which case Farage at 14 to 1 to be the next PM looks a canny bet. 

Click to expand...

They aren't sure, it's a ruse. I think it's a bluff but a strong bluff, use of psychology. Seen these 'deadlines' come and go in this Brexit saga before. The law states that an extension must be sought if a deal is not agreed with EU by 19th. Johnson is using pyschology to try and convince all parties that a deal must be agreed or he'll 'No Deal' because he needs and wants it so badly to stay alive, in his eyes it has to be true. Remember he got rid of the naysayers in his party in order for his tune to be carried by cabinet. Funny how when Rudd resigned recently she put the boot straight into Boris having formerly towed the PMs line. Cabinet are in it for themselves until they're booted out, there's no real loyalty. I think it's just bravado from BJ, say something often enough and it'll stick. However he's dealing with experienced deal makers in EU and a robust Irish goivernment, the bluff won't wash there.
Johnson has less than half the electorate on side with him in his endeavours, when he comes out with 'people want Brexit done' it is maddening for those who dont. All polling is showing a stronger remain than leave intention now so things have changed.
He still remains is a very weak position in Commons in trying to get any deal ratified anyway. Only has DUP onside and there's not enough of them. The 21 Tory MPs he's sacked will reap their revenge.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's a fair point ,  its a push to call it the will of the people. 
Kind of overstating it.
		
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Itâ€™s only the will of the people who could be bothered to vote!
Itâ€™s possible if we had ref2 it might change but where do we stop.
People had their chance to vote and leave won .
Itâ€™s just a mess of our parliaments making but the EU have to share some of the blame.
Most ordinary people are sick of it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			Remainers are always correct
		
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I say daft and incorrect stuff so I cannot always be correct


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Leftie said:



			And, yet again Hugh, your post adds absolutely *nothing* to this thread.  Just repeats the same old, same old dogma that you have been spouting ad nauseam for the last few years.  Oh.  And you weren't insinuating that leavers are mad pigs who you hope will drown, were you?  If so, very un-Christian.

Imo of course ................
		
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Sorry if you don't get the biblical allegorical reference - it's a pretty well known one.  And I'm not sure how I can be un-Christian by quoting (not quite verbatim) from the bible.   The demon entered the herd of swine and caused them to become mad and charge to their death.  Not the fault of the swine - but the fault of the demon...

BTW - I first saw the gadarene swine allegory in an opinion piece by Matthew Parris in The Times.  I don't recall him getting accused of calling Leave voters swine...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Dando said:



			I just wished he'd sta


he's more than a "bit" one sided Chris
		
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Of course I am - I see little if anything good to come out of leaving the EU.  

For most folks I see simply loss of things we have taken for granted for years - and for some a deal of pain and difficulty.  So I don't apologise for being a 'bit' one-sided.

I have no gripe with those who have voted to leave.  I have major gripe with those such as Joshnson, Farage and in the ERG who have lied and exaggerated for years about the negative impact of the EU on the UK and who have led us into this utter shambles.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Itâ€™s only the will of the people who could be bothered to vote!
Itâ€™s possible if we had ref2 it might change but where do we stop.
People had their chance to vote and leave won .
Itâ€™s just a mess of our parliaments making but *the EU have to share some of the blame.*
Most ordinary people are sick of it.
		
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For why?  For not _getting _the UK?  It's hardly their fault if they don't understand us.

And most ordinary people will not benefit - and may suffer - from us leaving the EU - especially with No Deal.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 4, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1180111644833304577
Scottish Law Courts fighting a bonny battle.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Fake news as signs above the motorway have been telling me I need to sort out my freight documentation if I'm going to Europe from the 1st November or something like that. And I believe signs above motorways much more than I do some remoaner peddling fake news.
		
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It's true.  Johnson is ready to ask for a Brexit Extension/Delay.  So he's been lying when saying he wasn't going to do that.

That he might find another way of us crashing out on 31/10 does not alter the fact that he has lied to us over the Benn Act letter.

I think they'll find a way to leave on 31/10 and they will be sooo smug and think that they are oh so clever...


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## robinthehood (Oct 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Itâ€™s only the will of the people who could be bothered to vote!
Itâ€™s possible if we had ref2 it might change but where do we stop.
People had their chance to vote and leave won .
Itâ€™s just a mess of our parliaments making but the EU have to share some of the blame.
Most ordinary people are sick of it.
		
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Tbf it's a mess of the conservative party's making . No one else.


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## drdel (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's true.  Johnson is ready to ask for a Brexit Extension/Delay.  So he's been lying when saying he wasn't going to do that.

That he might find another way of us crashing out on 31/10 does not alter the fact that he has lied to us over the Benn Act letter.

I think they'll find a way to leave on 31/10 and they will be sooo smug and think that they are oh so clever...
		
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So you suggest he acts in contempt of court?


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## Foxholer (Oct 4, 2019)

Leftie said:



			And, yet again Hugh, your post adds absolutely *nothing* to this thread.  Just repeats the same old, same old dogma that you have been spouting ad nauseam for the last few years.  Oh.  And you weren't insinuating that leavers are mad pigs who you hope will drown, were you?  If so, very un-Christian.

Imo of course ................
		
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At least he's consistent!

Btw. Yet again, your post adds absolutely *nothing* to this thread.  Just repeats the same old, same old...
So equally consistent!


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## IanM (Oct 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Tbf it's a mess of the conservative party's making . No one else.
		
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Do you mean Cameron for calling the Referendum?  Which, of course was heavily supported by the HofC.  He wanted to demonstrates how popular the EU was and end the in fighting the the Tories once and for all.  But it just proved that the EU Federalism wasn't popular at all.  Labour have flipped flopped over this for years.  Only consistent voice has been the Lib Dems.  But now we know about their leader's husband and the EU!


Mess?  You mean the protracted and massively funded campaign to keep us in?    Yes, that's a mess  The HofC and Courts ensuring that negotiation (with a body reliant on us to buy their stuff!) can't happen by removing the "walk away" option?  Yep, its a mess.

As I said many times before.  We are not leaving.  We won't be allowed.   The implications of that should scare you.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			I really don't think Farage wants to be PM, it would not be a role he is interested in.
		
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I suspect his ego would take over and he'd be tempted.  As let's face it, the recent incumbents have not exactly torn it up so expectations are not that high. Anyone with slightly right wing leanings would rather have him than Corbyn and if his mate Donald can do it then I'm sure he thinks he could give it a go.

And do you know what, personally I'm getting to the stage where I feel the conservatives effectively are mostly now identical to the old UKIP party when Farage was in charge.  So there's less and less of a difference between Boris and his band of cabinet acolytes who are there for one reason, which is not their political skills, and a cabinet made up of Farage Brexit party appointees who, assuming he avoids appointing some of the more 'fervent who have said questionable things in the past' ones, I think would be much the same.


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## Foxholer (Oct 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			So you suggest he acts in contempt of *court*?
		
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Court? What court?

'Conrempt of Parliament' perhaps - though I doubt. Or 'contemptuously breaks the law', perhaps.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Court? What court?

*'Conrempt* of Parliament' perhaps - though I doubt. Or 'contemptuously breaks the law', perhaps.
		
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It's 'Contempt' 
Just keeping you on your Pedant toes


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Being pedantic - what we are doing is not the will of the people - it is the will of that subset of the people who want it to happen.   My will remains most definitely set against Leaving - though as mentioned - my will is not always the best will for me to act upon.
		
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Maybe it's not the best will for anyone else to act upon eitherðŸ˜€


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## drdel (Oct 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Court? What court?

'Conrempt of Parliament' perhaps - though I doubt. Or 'contemptuously breaks the law', perhaps.
		
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My post did not use a capital 'c' on purpose! since there are actions past and present to consider.


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## larmen (Oct 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			I really don't think Farage wants to be PM, it would not be a role he is interested in.
		
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People say Donald Trump didn't want to be President either. Doesn't stop them becoming one.


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## Slime (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*It's true.  Johnson is ready to ask for a Brexit Extension/Delay.  So he's been lying when saying he wasn't going to do that.*

That he might find another way of us *crashing out* on 31/10 does not alter the fact that he has lied to us over the Benn Act letter.

I think they'll find a way to leave on 31/10 and they will be sooo smug and think that they are oh so clever...
		
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So, anyone who changes their mind about anything is a liar .................... interesting viewpoint.

Oh, and 'crashing out'.  Hilariously dramatic! I think the correct phrase is '*leaving*'.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's true.  Johnson is ready to ask for a Brexit Extension/Delay. * So he's been lying when saying he wasn't going to do that.*

That he might find another way of us crashing out on 31/10 does not alter the fact that he has lied to us over the Benn Act letter.

I think they'll find a way to leave on 31/10 and they will be sooo smug and think that they are oh so clever...
		
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You know, for someone who considers himself a fair minded man you take the biscuit.
You know damn well that he would take us out of EU  with no deal on 31st, if he could . But Parliament pass a law which would make him a lawbreaker if he did that.
He knows that and so he cannot try to take us out with a no deal unless he is a P rime Minister prepared to break the law. 
Exactly what the "remaining" parliament intended to impose on him.
You would be first in the queue to damn him for breaking the law.
Now you accuse him of lying if he doesn't break the law.


Some principles you seem to have !!!


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## drdel (Oct 4, 2019)

I see Macedonia and Bulgaria on the list of possible new members - wonder whose going to pick up the bill?


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## Backache (Oct 4, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You know, for someone who considers himself a fair minded man you take the biscuit.
You know damn well that he would take us out of EU  with no deal on 31st, if he could . But Parliament pass a law which would make him a lawbreaker if he did that.
He knows that and so he cannot try to take us out with a no deal unless he is a P rime Minister prepared to break the law.
Exactly what the "remaining" parliament intended to impose on him.
You would be first in the queue to damn him for breaking the law.
Now you accuse him of lying if he doesn't break the law.


Some principles you seem to have !!!
		
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Johnson knows exactly what the law is and is still repeating the fact that we will come out on Oct 31 
He could say we will come out on Oct 31 if the law allows  he is not saying that 
Either he is lying or he thinks he has a ruse that will bring the UK out on the 31 despite the law.


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## drdel (Oct 4, 2019)

Backache said:



			Johnson knows exactly what the law is and is still repeating the fact that we will come out on Oct 31
He could say we will come out on Oct 31 if the law allows  he is not saying that
Either he is lying or he thinks he has a ruse that will bring the UK out on the 31 despite the law.
		
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The EU could kick us out, refuse  an extension.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Macedonia and Bulgaria on the list of possible new members - wonder whose going to pick up the bill?
		
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And the rush of free movement.


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## Backache (Oct 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			The EU could kick us out, refuse  an extension.
		
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Absolutely , but Johnson is not saying we may come out he is saying we will come out. He is either lying or thinks he has a way around the law.


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## Leftie (Oct 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			At least he's consistent!

Btw. Yet again, your post adds absolutely *nothing* to this thread. 
So equally consistent!
		
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Ermm.  -- ditto --


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## Foxholer (Oct 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			My post did not use a capital 'c' on purpose! since there are actions past and present to consider.
		
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Though given 'developments' today, a capital 'C' (and the word 'Criminal') might become appropriate!


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			The EU could kick us out, refuse  an extension.
		
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As we stand now, Germany are happy with an extension so it will happen. All things being equal.  Which of course they may not be as we are in uncharted territory most days.


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## woofers (Oct 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			The EU could kick us out, refuse  an extension.
		
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Well at least it would be conclusive and get something done, because what good would a further extension achieve ?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2019)

woofers said:



			Well at least it would be conclusive and get something done, *because what good would a further extension achieve ?*

Click to expand...

More time to find a deal in the current political world.  Both sides know a no deal would be very harmful but both sides do not want to be seen to be caving in as from Boris's perspective his only aim is to win the next election, and being seen to cave in will dent those chances.  And from the EUs perspective they need to send a message out to other members not to try to leave.  So more time will allow them to find some kind of compromise that will not be seen as a complete victory for one side (although there will be a lot of spinning to say it is) whilst ensuring a deal is reached.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 4, 2019)

woofers said:



			Well at least it would be conclusive and get something done, *because what good would a further extension achieve ?*

Click to expand...

General Election? Second referendum? Revoke Article 50? I'm sure that the EU would be quite happy to give an extension if they thought that it would make us less likely to leave.


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## Foxholer (Oct 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Macedonia and Bulgaria on the list of possible new members - wonder whose going to pick up the bill?
		
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I presume you mean North Macedonia, the country, not Macedonia, part of Greece!

NM and Bulgaria have been 'candidtes' for EU membership of EU for an enormously long time!

Between them all, they should make a 'valuable' contribution to the EU. They having been scrapping about (rewriting!) their history for a while and have even exhumied and reburyed one of their their heroes - originally buried in Greece! So, for any that hadn't alread realised, some fierce nationalism in that area!


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For why?  For not _getting _the UK?  It's hardly their fault if they don't understand us.

And most ordinary people will not benefit - and may suffer - from us leaving the EU - especially with No Deal.
		
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My main reason is in 2016 The EU could have offered Cameron some sort of small concessions so he could come home with at least something to show us.
But all they did was tell him to get stuffed.
Not very diplomatic from them as they called his bluff over the referendum and the rest is history.
So yes the EU do share a lot of the blame imo.

Yes agree with your last bit.


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## woofers (Oct 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



*More time to find a deal in the current political world.*  Both sides know a no deal would be very harmful but both sides do not want to be seen to be caving in as from Boris's perspective his only aim is to win the next election, and being seen to cave in will dent those chances.  And from the EUs perspective they need to send a message out to other members not to try to leave.  *So more time will allow them to find some kind of compromise* that will not be seen as a complete victory for one side (although there will be a lot of spinning to say it is) whilst ensuring a deal is reached.
		
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ColchesterFC said:



			General Election? Second referendum? Revoke Article 50? I'm sure that the EU would be quite happy to give an extension if they thought that it would make us less likely to leave.
		
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More time.......as if we havenâ€™t had long enough, already had 2 extensions and achieved b all in that time until Johnson put down a proper red line / deadline.
General Election.....Parliament has rejected that twice already.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Tbf it's a mess of the conservative party's making . No one else.
		
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Post 14321 sets out my position .
But I agree to a certain extent about the Tory party.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I presume you mean North Macedonia, the country, not Macedonia, part of Greece!

NM and Bulgaria have been 'candidtes' for EU membership of EU for an enormously long time!

Between them all, they should make a 'valuable' contribution to the EU. They having been scrapping about (rewriting!) their history for a while and have even exhumied and reburyed one of their their heroes - originally buried in Greece! So, for any that hadn't alread realised, some fierce nationalism in that area!
		
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Isn't Bulgaria already a member? I believe the new joiners will be  Albania and North Macedonia.  Both cases to be net fiscal beneficiaries, mass movement of peoples to richer northern member states due to their low standards of living, potential exporters of organised criminals as their countries have a bad record for it.   Hopefully we will be out and they will be a drain on the few net contributors who will need deep pockets.


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## IanM (Oct 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Isn't Bulgaria already a member? I believe the new joiners will be  Albania and North Macedonia.  Both cases to be net fiscal beneficiaries, mass movement of peoples to richer northern member states due to their low standards of living, potential exporters of organised criminals as their countries have a bad record for it.   Hopefully we will be out and they will be a drain on the few net contributors who will need deep pockets.
		
Click to expand...


The piece I read said Albania as you say.  An arid land ravaged by the sort of politics much loved by Corbyn.   

Listening to conversation on radio about second Referendum.   If Leave won it, apparently the fight to Remain would continue.

Ok.  I see


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## robinthehood (Oct 4, 2019)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...ith-boris-johnsons-brexit-plan-20191003189479


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## Foxholer (Oct 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Isn't Bulgaria already a member? I believe the new joiners will be  Albania and North Macedonia.  Both cases to be net fiscal beneficiaries, mass movement of peoples to richer northern member states due to their low standards of living, potential exporters of organised criminals as their countries have a bad record for it.   Hopefully we will be out and they will be a drain on the few net contributors who will need deep pockets.
		
Click to expand...

Doh! Thanks for the correction! Though Bulgaria is not (yet) a member of Schengen (nor are Romania, Croatia and Cyprus) and nor, initially, will Albania and NM. So 'mass movement to richer northern members' will not (be allowed to) happen immediately.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Doh! Thanks for the correction! Though Bulgaria is not (yet) a member of Schengen (nor are Romania, Croatia and Cyprus) and nor, initially, will Albania and NM. So 'mass movement to richer northern members' will not (be allowed to) happen immediately.
		
Click to expand...

What conditions does a country have to meet to become a member of the Schengen area? And how long does that normally take?


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## User62651 (Oct 5, 2019)

May bought the DUPs support with a Â£1billion pay off after losing her majority.

So how much is Boris offering the Hungarians to buy their veto on any article 50 extension?  That has to be the reason for such cockyness from Govt, no?

I expect if it's less than Â£39 billion Boris will try and sell it as a good deal..........saves his neck. And this is the UK Govt today,.


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## Foxholer (Oct 5, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			What conditions does a country have to meet to become a member of the Schengen area? And how long does that normally take?
		
Click to expand...

Having started a post re Schengen, I realise that that's not the 'driver' of freedom of movement, simply visa-free entry in participating countries, as UK is not a Schengen member.

There is definitely a transition period for new EU members though that defers FofM. This certainly happened when the EU significantly grew in 2003/4. 

As for your question, EU has to approve the country's compliance with EU Articles. How long that takes depends, but it was several (3?) years for those that joined in 2004.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 5, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			May bought the DUPs support with a Â£1billion pay off after losing her majority.

So how much is Boris offering the Hungarians to buy their veto on any article 50 extension?  That has to be the reason for such cockyness from Govt, no?

I expect if it's less than Â£39 billion Boris will try and sell it as a good deal..........saves his neck. And this is the UK Govt today,.
		
Click to expand...

With the caveat that nothing makes sense anymore, and ignoring the irony that to take back control we would be completely reliant on another country, but I think the is a false flag. As Hungary would know that if they go against the wishes of the main players in the EU and EU unity at this highly politically charged time, there will be consequences.


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## drdel (Oct 5, 2019)

I see it is reported that the EU may propose a 14 month extension to 2021!

There is hope of divine interevention as there are also reports that 3 asteroids are heading for earth and total destruction.


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## Beezerk (Oct 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see it is reported that the EU may propose a 14 month extension to 2021!
		
Click to expand...

Jesus H, the mood of the nation is bad enough as it is, imagine how much worse it will get of that's the case


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## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			reports
		
Click to expand...




Hacker Khan said:



			With the caveat that nothing makes sense anymore, and ignoring the irony that to take back control we would be completely reliant on another country, but I think the is a false flag. As Hungary would know that if they go against the wishes of the main players in the EU and EU unity at this highly politically charged time, there will be consequences.
		
Click to expand...

How can we take back control while were still in the EU.


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## JamesR (Oct 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Macedonia and Bulgaria on the list of possible new members - wonder whose going to pick up the bill?
		
Click to expand...

The Turks?
ðŸ¤”


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## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2019)

JamesR said:



			The Turks?
ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Why?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2019)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...n-quit-over-brexit/ar-AAIlj6W?ocid=spartandhp

Daring the Queen to sack him will not go down with quite a few Tories that I know and I would imagine at least 49% of Tory party members.


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## Old Skier (Oct 6, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...n-quit-over-brexit/ar-AAIlj6W?ocid=spartandhp

Daring the Queen to sack him will not go down with quite a few Tories that I know and I would imagine at least 49% of Tory party members.
		
Click to expand...

The "Mail" reader now going to MSN for honest news.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 7, 2019)

Peston :
So believe it or not, the 21 Tory MPs expelled from the parliamentary Conservative party, plus Rudd who quit, today refused to support opposition MPs who wanted to put down an SO24 motion that would have allowed MPs to seize control of parliamentâ€™s business on any day between...
now and Brexit day on 31 October. Labour and SNP had ordered all their MPs to London to support the motion. But now it wonâ€™t be put on the order paper till next Tuesday, if at all. The point of the motion was to give MPs the power to pass whatever legislation they thought they... need to stop a no-deal Brexit on 31 October. But the Tory rebels apparently now buy the Johnson and Cummings argument that MPs flexing their collective muscles to stop a no-deal Brexit is undermining their chances of getting a deal. But as I reported earlier, there is next to... no chance of the EU accepting Johnsonâ€™s offer anyway (see https://itv.com/news/2019-10-07/johnson-s-brexit-offer-contains-too-much-uncertainty-writes-robert-peston/â€¦). So Cummings and Johnson will be chortling into their coffees as we speak. And business in the Commons today will be of magnificent unimportance.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 7, 2019)

I predict the laywers will be cashing in again on this, appeal after appeal 


Laura Kuenssberg

@bbclaurak
Â·
4m

latest Brexit court ruling here - Scottish courts turn down an attempt to force PM to ask for a Brexit extension https://


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## Hobbit (Oct 7, 2019)

like-death-sentence-retired-britons-eu-face-loss-healthcare

Many out here have private healthcare but, equally, there are many who rely on the Spanish Healthcare system. The Spanish Govt created a law, Royal Decree, in March this year that guaranteed no change to healthcare provision providing the UK reciprocated. The UK continue to hold out... whatever the reasons, bargaining chips, behind this it is creating a lot of uncertainty and stress for many older expats.

Before some, as they have before, shout that they left the UK, tough titty. The vast majority will have paid NI all their working lives. At present they are not a burden on the NHS but, if as many say they will have to, they return to the UK the queues at the doc's surgery and in hospitals will increase.


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## drdel (Oct 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



like-death-sentence-retired-britons-eu-face-loss-healthcare

Many out here have private healthcare but, equally, there are many who rely on the Spanish Healthcare system. The Spanish Govt created a law, Royal Decree, in March this year that guaranteed no change to healthcare provision providing the UK reciprocated. The UK continue to hold out... whatever the reasons, bargaining chips, behind this it is creating a lot of uncertainty and stress for many older expats.

Before some, as they have before, shout that they left the UK, tough titty. The vast majority will have paid NI all their working lives. At present they are not a burden on the NHS but, if as many say they will have to, they return to the UK the queues at the doc's surgery and in hospitals will increase.
		
Click to expand...

NI is just a tax. It is loosely related to pension rights. It does not build up an NHS entitlement, a right which applies to all residents in the UK: as the NHS budget is met from general taxation.

There are millions of old people paying tax in the UK who could not afford the choice of moving to Spain for a 'better' cheaper life style - I have some sympathy with those at the margin who are caught but not a lot I'm afraid.


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## Hobbit (Oct 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			NI is just a tax. It is loosely related to pension rights. It does not build up an NHS entitlement, a right which applies to all residents in the UK: as the NHS budget is met from general taxation.

There are millions of old people paying tax in the UK who could not afford the choice of moving to Spain for a 'better' cheaper life style - I have some sympathy with those at the margin who are caught but not a lot I'm afraid.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but that's a poor response. For NI also include income tax. Pretty much everyone I know out here didn't work out here but worked in the UK, choosing to retire out here. And some of us, due to who our employers were at sometime in our working life, still pay UK income tax. Your post also makes no mention of the reciprocity offered by the Spanish govt, i.e. to maintain the status quo. Perhaps all those Army, Navy, Air Force, Police, NHS, Fire Service, Civil Servants etc who are retired abroad but who are paying UK income tax should tell HMRC to get stuffed - its not a small amount. If we pay income tax in Spain we can access the Spanish health service but we have no choice where our govt sponsored pensions are taxed, hence no access the the Spanish health service without paying extra.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 7, 2019)

Robert Peston

@Peston

I wrote this morning about how the 21 expelled rebel Tory MPs had blocked a parliamentary coup planned for today, when opposition parties had wanted to use Standing Order 24 to give them the power at any time before 31 October to reinforce the Benn Act and prevent...
Boris Johnson forcing through a no-deal Brexit at the end of this month. I've subsequently been contacted by former members of the 21 insisting that they are no longer members of the 21, that they would have backed the coup, and that there is now a clear split between... "Brexit wets", who harbour a residual hope that Boris Johnson will welcome them back into the party in the coming weeks, and a breakaway group of anti-Johnson ultras who are set on running in the coming election as independents or have decided to leave politics. So...let's have no more than of the rebel 21. By my calculation it's now 15 Brexit wets and 6 anti-Johnson ultras.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry but that's a poor response. For NI also include income tax. Pretty much everyone I know out here didn't work out here but worked in the UK, choosing to retire out here. And some of us, due to who our employers were at sometime in our working life, still pay UK income tax. Your post also makes no mention of the reciprocity offered by the Spanish govt, i.e. to maintain the status quo. Perhaps all those Army, Navy, Air Force, Police, NHS, Fire Service, Civil Servants etc who are retired abroad but who are paying UK income tax should tell HMRC to get stuffed - its not a small amount. If we pay income tax in Spain we can access the Spanish health service but we have no choice where our govt sponsored pensions are taxed, hence no access the the Spanish health service without paying extra.
		
Click to expand...

I would have thought the UK government would welcome an agreement with Spain.
But would the EU allow such deals .?
As it would make Spain more agreeable in the Brexit negotiations if it knew its citizens here were protected.
Thatâ€™s a missed opportunity imo.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I predict the laywers will be cashing in again on this, appeal after appeal 
Laura Kuenssberg
@bbclaurak
Â·
4m

latest Brexit court ruling here - Scottish courts turn down an attempt to force PM to ask for a Brexit extension https://

Click to expand...

Are sure about that last line, check the ruling.


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## Foxholer (Oct 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Are sure about that last line, check the ruling.
		
Click to expand...

A pretty rare event imo, but Doon is correct! (At least in pointing out an error in SB's post!)


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## drdel (Oct 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry but that's a poor response. For NI also include income tax. Pretty much everyone I know out here didn't work out here but worked in the UK, choosing to retire out here. And some of us, due to who our employers were at sometime in our working life, still pay UK income tax. Your post also makes no mention of the reciprocity offered by the Spanish govt, i.e. to maintain the status quo. Perhaps all those Army, Navy, Air Force, Police, NHS, Fire Service, Civil Servants etc who are retired abroad but who are paying UK income tax should tell HMRC to get stuffed - its not a small amount. If we pay income tax in Spain we can access the Spanish health service but we have no choice where our govt sponsored pensions are taxed, hence no access the the Spanish health service without paying extra.
		
Click to expand...

Like you I pay income tax on pension income; but you raised the National Insurance issues as been a right accrued by an individual. But it ain't 'insurance' (and, bye the bye, neither do Health insurers give No Claims discount), its all worked on a current account basis...

Finance guru says today in response to a pension question...
"Steve Webb replies: _I was very sorry to read about your recent diagnosis._

_With regard to the National Insurance system, the way in which the system works is that this yearâ€™s contributions paid by workers are used to pay this yearâ€™s retirement pensions and other NI benefits (plus a small amount that goes towards the NHS)._"

If you live overseas and get a UK pension(s) then IMO any UK tax due should be paid. Access to Health care is a policy agreed between the relevant States; the EU and UK can still agree.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			A pretty rare event imo, but Doon is correct! (At least in pointing out an error in SB's post!)
		
Click to expand...


Nob Off.










[ is the particular legal case that they were discussing.]


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## Hobbit (Oct 7, 2019)

incoming-eu-foreign-affairs-chief-153231086.html


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



incoming-eu-foreign-affairs-chief-153231086.html

Click to expand...

Is that the EU Army that doesn't exist... yet.  Wonder who they'll need to keep on board to pay for that then?


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## spongebob59 (Oct 7, 2019)

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/...e-negotiations/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 7, 2019)

Someone will be along soon to deny it.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 7, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/...e-negotiations/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

Its not clear who made this statement. I have to say that some of the terminology does not seem what one would expect in a Government statement; however hamstrung they must currently feel with the way parliament is frustrating their attempt to negotiate a deal.


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## robinthehood (Oct 8, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Someone will be along soon to deny it.
		
Click to expand...

Deny what ? That  a man has an opinion.?


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## robinthehood (Oct 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not clear who made this statement. I have to say that some of the terminology does not seem what one would expect in a Government statement; however hamstrung they must currently feel with the way parliament is frustrating their attempt to negotiate a deal.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like something his mate down the pub came up with.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 8, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181470902439092225


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/...e-negotiations/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

With the comment '_we will focus on winning the election on a manifesto of immediately revoking the entire EU legal order without further talks, and then we will leave._' they have literally become UKIP of a couple of years ago, they are the current Brexit Party but with more history. Turns out the way to negate the threat of their more right wing MPs and voters migrating to a mostly single issue popularist nationalist party was to become one.  Funny old world....


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181470902439092225

Click to expand...

To be fair the inequalities within the Uk are just as stark, very little of which has been due to the EU.  It's kind of what happens in an increasingly capitalist society.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2019)

Interesting article  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49961301  with the following quote about what Labour, who as many have commented on this thread and others, notoriously can't be trusted to look after the economy, are doing.  Typical Labour and I for one condemn them for doing this. Corbyn the saviour my arse...

_'And all this comes at a time where the institute concludes that the government is no longer taking its own fiscal rules seriously, borrowing more to spend more on public services even as the Treasury approaches its self-imposed limits. '_


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## SocketRocket (Oct 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be fair the inequalities within the Uk are just as stark, very little of which has been due to the EU.  It's kind of what happens in an increasingly capitalist society.
		
Click to expand...

Has it been different at some time, there have been differences in local economies as long as I can remember. When was this golden age when we were all well off (Or as Corbyn would create, poor)


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Deny what ? That  a man has an opinion.?
		
Click to expand...

He quite clearly says â€œwe need more troopsâ€
Or the headline does.
To have more means you must have some in the first place!


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## robinthehood (Oct 8, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			He quite clearly says â€œwe need more troopsâ€
Or the headline does.
To have more means you must have some in the first place!
		
Click to expand...

Its just an opinion piece. You can stand down


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## spongebob59 (Oct 8, 2019)

Sky news :


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## spongebob59 (Oct 8, 2019)

Robert Peston

@Peston

This feels very big. PM spoke with German Chancellor Angela Merkel at 8am this morning. According to Downing Street source, she told the PM that there will be no Brexit deal with the UK unless Northern Ireland is in the customs union "forever". The ource says she repeated...
"forever" on "multiple occasions". So she is saying there can be no time-limited backstop. And of course it is a wholesale rejection of Johnson's offer to replace the backstop. The source says "France is saying the same thing". The government's conclusion is that EU leaders... have decided to make an example of the UK, to show that Johnson's attempt to bin the painstakingly negotiated Withdrawal Agreement must inevitably lead to a worse deal for the UK. To be clear, at this stage I only have the UK's government's take, but on the face of it the EU... has decided to give the UK a binary choice, between a no-deal Brexit or a Brexit delay that may lead to Brexit being cancelled. Johnson will now go full steam ahead to a no-deal Brexit on 31 October. I would expect him to make a statement about all this later today. It is then... down to MPs to decide whether this is the moment to try and oust him with a vote of no confidence, or whether to trust that the Benn Act gets them the Brexit delay they want. The stakes are very high indeed.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 8, 2019)

So there you have it from Merkel herself, the backstop was never about ensuring no hard border, protecting "peace" and the Good Friday Agreement but SIMPLY to annex Northern Ireland into the EU.


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## chrisd (Oct 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



Robert Peston
@Peston

This feels very big. PM spoke with German Chancellor Angela Merkel at 8am this morning. According to Downing Street source, she told the PM that there will be no Brexit deal with the UK unless Northern Ireland is in the customs union "forever". The ource says she repeated...
"forever" on "multiple occasions". So she is saying there can be no time-limited backstop. And of course it is a wholesale rejection of Johnson's offer to replace the backstop. The source says "France is saying the same thing". The government's conclusion is that EU leaders... have decided to make an example of the UK, to show that Johnson's attempt to bin the painstakingly negotiated Withdrawal Agreement must inevitably lead to a worse deal for the UK. To be clear, at this stage I only have the UK's government's take, but on the face of it the EU... has decided to give the UK a binary choice, between a no-deal Brexit or a Brexit delay that may lead to Brexit being cancelled. Johnson will now go full steam ahead to a no-deal Brexit on 31 October. I would expect him to make a statement about all this later today. It is then... down to MPs to decide whether this is the moment to try and oust him with a vote of no confidence, or whether to trust that the Benn Act gets them the Brexit delay they want. The stakes are very high indeed.
		
Click to expand...


 An interesting twist. So the EU screwed us over with the May deal?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Sky news :





Click to expand...

People do know that this number 10 source is Cummings leaking stuff to the press right?

It is playing out much as expected, we offer a deal which we know the EU will not accept as we are effectively now negotiating with ourselves to see what can get through the DUP and ERG, and not what will work for the UK and EU. When the EU point this out Number 10 starts furiously briefing to enrage their core voter base, that it is the fault of the Irish, the EU who want to kill the Good Friday Agreement, take over Norther Ireland etc etc.  Expect the usual papers to go all in on this, people get angrier, vote in Bojo for another term, we leave with no deal, his mates make some money and we ignore the fact that if we can't even get a divorce type deal with the EU then what are the chances of us getting a trade deal with them in the next decade or so.  Let's hope Trump doesn't decide to kill our economy as well as Turkeys's.


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## jp5 (Oct 8, 2019)

Scary the number of people, including well renowned journalists, that are willing to accept No.10 propaganda without question.

Fact is May negotiated an acceptable deal to both sides but our own hardliners vetoed it.


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## Foxholer (Oct 8, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Scary the number of people, including well renowned journalists, that are willing to accept No.10 propaganda without question.

Fact is May negotiated an acceptable deal to both sides but our own hardliners vetoed it.
		
Click to expand...

I'm no 'hardliner' (actually voting remain) but, to me, May's 'deal' was not a deal to leave at all! It was a 'deal' to lose all the benefits of EU membership, but to, potentially - therefore almost certainly, be still be controlled by the EU!

It was overwhelmingly rejected by ALL sides when submitted for approval in the Commons!!


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## drdel (Oct 8, 2019)

It appears those MPs who claimed the 'backstop' was a 'trap' were correct as the EU were never going to accept its demise.


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## PieMan (Oct 8, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Scary the number of people, including well renowned journalists, that are willing to accept No.10 propaganda without question.

Fact is May negotiated an acceptable deal to both sides but our own hardliners vetoed it.
		
Click to expand...

Er, the May deal was rejected by Parliament 3 times! And MPs on both sides of the House, from all Parties, voted against it!!


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## spongebob59 (Oct 8, 2019)

The EU wonâ€™t agree to a Brexit deal unless NIre remains in the Customs Union. The Commons wonâ€™t agree to a Brexit deal if NIre does remain in the Customs Union. So what next? Leavers: â€œLet the British people decide in an election.â€ Remoaners: â€œLet the EU27 leaders decide.â€


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## USER1999 (Oct 8, 2019)

Since it appears there can't be a deal, we are back to the old no deal, or remain, conundrum. Leave with a deal seems impossible now, and to be fair, it probably always has been.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 8, 2019)

Keir Starmer MP, Shadow Brexit Secretary: â€œThis is yet another cynical attempt by Number 10 to sabotage the negotiations."


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The EU wonâ€™t agree to a Brexit deal unless NIre remains in the Customs Union. The Commons wonâ€™t agree to a Brexit deal if NIre does remain in the Customs Union. So what next? Leavers: â€œLet the British people decide in an election.â€ Remoaners: â€œLet the EU27 leaders decide.â€
		
Click to expand...

Who is saying we let the EU leaders decide what we do next? I get that spinning is happening but has anyone said that they want to delegate the decision on what to do next to EU leaders?  

Also call me old fashioned but if you want to decide a specific matter then have a referendum on that mater.  Which I agree we have done and we are still rather unsuccessfully trying to enact that.  Not sure how holding a general election will decide what we do next unless we are just admitting nothing else matters in a GE at all and you must vote purely and only on the parties Brexit position.  Which to me sounds daft if we want a properly functioning country in all areas.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Scary the number of people, including well renowned journalists, that are willing to accept No.10 propaganda without question.

Fact is May negotiated an acceptable deal to both sides but our own hardliners vetoed it.
		
Click to expand...

This may be a last ditch throw of the dice as even Bojo must realise that getting out of the EU with a deal will be more electorally palatable and better for his long term chances of remaining PM that a no deal.  

But if reports are to be believed that negotiations have mostly broken down then I fear we will be in for a vast amount of spinning now, from number 10 and the EU.  People will believe who ever they want to believe, the actual truth will be complicated and nuanced and will more than likely be lost in a sea of spin, possibly to turn up in some behind the scenes documentary on BBC 2 in 4 years time. And in the mean time the country gets more and more divided, populist leaders on both sides become the norm and we just hope the examples of what happens when you get these types, both from history and from what is happening now in other countries, will never happen to us.


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## USER1999 (Oct 8, 2019)

If Merkels comments re NI remaining in the customs union are true, why did she not say this 3 years ago, and have cut out 3 years of pointless negotiating pontificating nonsense?


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## Beezerk (Oct 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not sure how holding a general election will decide what we do next unless we are just admitting nothing else matters in a GE at all and you must vote purely and only on the parties Brexit position.  Which to me sounds daft if we want a properly functioning country in all areas.
		
Click to expand...

To be honest, at the minute I dont think much else matters to a lot of people. You could argue over half the country are feeling disenfranchised right now and want this referendum acting upon,  if that means doing it via a GE then so be it.
Mass protest votes on the horizon if a delay is put in place and a GE were to follow.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			With the comment '_we will focus on winning the election on a manifesto of immediately revoking the entire EU legal order without further talks, and then we will leave._' they have literally become UKIP of a couple of years ago, they are the current Brexit Party but with more history. Turns out the way to negate the threat of their more right wing MPs and voters migrating to a mostly single issue popularist nationalist party was to become one.  Funny old world....
		
Click to expand...

Scary thought polls indicate that at least 50% of UK voters will support right wing/ far right wing policies. [Tory/Brexit/UKIP]
Next Tory party slogan will probably be..â€¦...Britain First.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 8, 2019)

Talking to the guy who irwnted me apartment off in sydney through Airbnb.
Word on the street is when we leave. There will be free movement  between the UK and Oz re work. It is something the Aussies hope will happen. My lad and others will do cartwheels should that happen. Seems it's not all doom.and gloom.


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## drdel (Oct 8, 2019)

Unfortunately EU history has shown than their negotiation tactics are to stonewall. 

The Greeks were promised a loan restructure, agreed with IMF and ECB but when it came down to the wire Juncker and Dragi changed their mind!

They still hope the UK will prevaricate and give up with the help of Parliament.


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## Beezerk (Oct 8, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Talking to the guy who irwnted me apartment off in sydney through Airbnb.
Word on the street is when we leave. There will be free movement  between the UK and Oz re work. It is something the Aussies hope will happen. My lad and others will do cartwheels should that happen. Seems it's not all doom.and gloom.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting, my mate who lives and works in Melbourne says the whole process of getting a work  Visa is a disgrace and isn't helping the economy in Australia. I know I had to jump through lots of hoops and tell them just about my whole life story (I didn't tell them about the tee shot at Tyneside which went 5 feet ðŸ¤£) and that was just for a temporary 3 month work visa.


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## robinthehood (Oct 8, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Talking to the guy who irwnted me apartment off in sydney through Airbnb.
Word on the street is when we leave. There will be free movement  between the UK and Oz re work. It is something the Aussies hope will happen. My lad and others will do cartwheels should that happen. Seems it's not all doom.and gloom.
		
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So....free movement from EU bad...
Free movement from other country good.
I'm lost at what the difference is...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scary thought polls indicate that at least 50% of UK voters will support right wing/ far right wing policies. [Tory/Brexit/UKIP]
Next Tory party slogan will probably be..â€¦...Britain First.

Click to expand...

...or maybe just MEGA - as some might suggest this whole thing has some weird populist notional of English Greatness and Nationalism stamped all over it - as Diad Johnson goes for a GE win,  a Deal never being anything he was very much interested in - all he has cared for all along is becoming PM whatever the cost to the UK.  And in that he has set out the groundwork for a No Deal Exit, with his current proposal being part of that plan - knowingly never acceptable by the EU - and then being able to blame the EU as #1 responsible and Remoaners as #2 responsible for the damage that he has to deal with once he is in place for 5yrs following a GE. 

I don't think I can actually feel angry about this any more - I just find it all very sad and depressing that we are letting (have let) this guy get away with this.

I add the one upside of this for me is that Farage and his crew will hopefully be squashed by the party that has become the quasi-BP - i.e. the Tories.


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## Beezerk (Oct 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			So....free movement from EU bad...
Free movement from other country good.
I'm lost at what the difference is...
		
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I dont think you can get a dinghy from Oz to the UK and claim benefits ðŸ¤”


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## robinthehood (Oct 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I dont think you can get a dinghy from Oz to the UK and claim benefits ðŸ¤”
		
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Youre confusing illegal immigrants with legal.....


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## jp5 (Oct 8, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Er, the May deal was rejected by Parliament 3 times! And MPs on both sides of the House, from all Parties, voted against it!!
		
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If you look at the movement on that deal it was pretty big. A lot of moderates came round to it - went from being defeated by > 200 votes to ~60. If the ERG had got on board and a couple dozen of the Labour sensibles then we'd be over the line and able to move on.

There's never going to be a solution at the extremes - no deal or revoke - it's going to take compromise from everyone. The result is everyone being slightly unhappy, but that's the least worst situation.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 8, 2019)

It was patently obvious that Ireland would be the key point. 

This whole let the UK decide was actually untrue .. the choices you have are non existent just accept it, you think you have a choice but in reality you don't.

The other point which is glossed over, was May instigated article 50 and called an election to get a majority to leave the EU.
All of those people who voted leave did not support her, they failed to show up at the poles to give her a fighting majority and a Tory exit plan for the EU.
So to conclude, forget the referendum numbers look at the GE numbers and that tells you the divide.

Was May's deal good or bad who knows, because this isn't about you or I, we are fed the BS, half truths and down right lies. This is about the those people who are getting a something from it .. Boris gets to call himself prime minister, Mogg gets to make his fortune even larger, big business opts out of fair pay, the USA rapes us on a trade deal like they did on the liberty ships, environmental concerns will be binned and we will go back to being the dirty old man of Europe etc ...

Cynical maybe .. but ask your self what have you been directly disadvantaged by with our EU membership and then list out how you will benefit with us leaving .. I think Hobbit mentioned the health care side (I am not taking sides on this I think it's appalling that health care be used in a manner like this).
The direct affects on you will be zero, you do not even know they are happening .. but if your going to make big bucks then whoopee and do a Farage and move to Europe having made your bundle.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 8, 2019)

Donald Tusk

@eucopresident
Â· 21m
.@BorisJohnson, whatâ€™s at stake is not winning some stupid blame game. At stake is the future of Europe and the UK as well as the security and interests of our people. You donâ€™t want a deal, you donâ€™t want an extension, you donâ€™t want to revoke, quo vadis?


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## drdel (Oct 8, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Donald Tusk

@eucopresident
Â· 21m
.@BorisJohnson, whatâ€™s at stake is not winning some stupid blame game. At stake is the future of Europe and the UK as well as the security and interests of our people. You donâ€™t want a deal, you donâ€™t want an extension, you donâ€™t want to revoke, quo vadis?
		
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Indeed he and others have been trying to make sure the only 'way we march' is the EU way and forget there was a vote in the UK for a different path.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			I dont think you can get a dinghy from Oz to the UK and claim benefits ðŸ¤”
		
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Are you not talking about illegal immigrants from outside the EU there ? Unless the Middle East or North Africa have joined the EU 

That wonâ€™t change being in the EU or not 

So with this â€œdealâ€ that Tashy has broken to the UK we can now have Aussies coming to the UK and claim benefits


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So with this â€œdealâ€ that Tashy has broken to the UK we can now have Aussies coming to the UK and claim benefits
		
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Two things from Tashy's post.....

1) It's "word on the street", so nothing more than rumours
2) "Free movement for work" - no mention of benefits

I thought that the government position has always been for a points based system to allow in those that are required at a particular time by giving their profession/occupation a greater weighting. Seems like an eminently more sensible idea than allowing any one of 500+ million people to come here just because they want to and because of an accident of birth they are allowed to.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Two things from Tashy's post.....

1) It's "word on the street", so nothing more than rumours
2) "Free movement for work" - no mention of benefits

I thought that the government position has always been for a points based system to allow in those that are required at a particular time by giving their profession/occupation a greater weighting. Seems like an eminently more sensible idea than allowing any one of 500+ million people to come here just because they want to and because of an accident of birth they are allowed to.
		
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So not much different to people from Aus coming to work here now then ? 

Hopefully we will get enough from Aus or US to fill the gaps of the EU workers


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2019)

Jeez, are we now scenario planning on what Tashy's AirBnB host has apparently heard 'on the street' in Australia? Who next, Johnny the shoeshine guy from Police Squad?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			It was patently obvious that Ireland would be the key point.

This whole let the UK decide was actually untrue .. the choices you have are non existent just accept it, you think you have a choice but in reality you don't.

The other point which is glossed over, was May instigated article 50 and called an election to get a majority to leave the EU.
All of those people who voted leave did not support her, they failed to show up at the poles to give her a fighting majority and a Tory exit plan for the EU.
So to conclude, forget the referendum numbers look at the GE numbers and that tells you the divide.

Was May's deal good or bad who knows, because this isn't about you or I, we are fed the BS, half truths and down right lies. This is about the those people who are getting a something from it .. Boris gets to call himself prime minister, Mogg gets to make his fortune even larger, big business opts out of fair pay, the USA rapes us on a trade deal like they did on the liberty ships, environmental concerns will be binned and we will go back to being the dirty old man of Europe etc ...

Cynical maybe .. but ask your self what have you been directly disadvantaged by with our EU membership and then list out how you will benefit with us leaving .. I think Hobbit mentioned the health care side (I am not taking sides on this I think it's appalling that health care be used in a manner like this).
The direct affects on you will be zero, you do not even know they are happening .. *but if your going to make big bucks* then whoopee and do a Farage and move to Europe having made your bundle.
		
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Follow the money, always follow the money


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## USER1999 (Oct 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So not much different to people from Aus coming to work here now then ?

Hopefully we will get enough from Aus or US to fill the gaps of the EU workers
		
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But after a few years, when the EU populace wakes up to the fact that we are not going to eat them, they can apply, and work in the UK just the same as any one else. There is zero reason why someone from the EU cannot work here.


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## GB72 (Oct 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			It was patently obvious that Ireland would be the key point.

This whole let the UK decide was actually untrue .. the choices you have are non existent just accept it, you think you have a choice but in reality you don't.

The other point which is glossed over, was May instigated article 50 and called an election to get a majority to leave the EU.
All of those people who voted leave did not support her, they failed to show up at the poles to give her a fighting majority and a Tory exit plan for the EU.
So to conclude, forget the referendum numbers look at the GE numbers and that tells you the divide.

Was May's deal good or bad who knows, because this isn't about you or I, we are fed the BS, half truths and down right lies. This is about the those people who are getting a something from it .. Boris gets to call himself prime minister, Mogg gets to make his fortune even larger, big business opts out of fair pay, the USA rapes us on a trade deal like they did on the liberty ships, environmental concerns will be binned and we will go back to being the dirty old man of Europe etc ...

Cynical maybe .. but ask your self what have you been directly disadvantaged by with our EU membership and then list out how you will benefit with us leaving .. I think Hobbit mentioned the health care side (I am not taking sides on this I think it's appalling that health care be used in a manner like this).
The direct affects on you will be zero, you do not even know they are happening .. but if your going to make big bucks then whoopee and do a Farage and move to Europe having made your bundle.
		
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Have to agree that Ireland was always going to be the key point and this is where I am confused. The only way to pretty much guarantee that we have to go back to a hard border is to have no deal. Yes, the alternatives may not be ideal for one side or another but surely any option is better than walking off a cliff and going back to full border controls. 

What we have now is a massive game of chicken. The EU think that we will call another referendum if there is no deal on the table, the UK thinks that the EU will cave as no deal gets closer. Not really a great way for either side to carry out a negotiation. 

As it stands, I would just be happy for this to be over. If that tanks the economy then lets at least rip the plaster off and start dealing with it.


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## drdel (Oct 8, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Have to agree that Ireland was always going to be the key point and this is where I am confused. The only way to pretty much guarantee that we have to go back to a hard border is to have no deal. Yes, the alternatives may not be ideal for one side or another but surely any option is better than walking off a cliff and going back to full border controls.

What we have now is a massive game of chicken. The EU think that we will call another referendum if there is no deal on the table, the UK thinks that the EU will cave as no deal gets closer. Not really a great way for either side to carry out a negotiation.

As it stands, I would just be happy for this to be over. If that tanks the economy then lets at least rip the plaster off and start dealing with it.
		
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I'm pretty much with you on this.

If the Merkel stance is true/adopted and the UK won't throw NI under the bus then a No Deal is on the cards sooner or later.

EU says it doesn't want an NI border but forcing a no deal ensures a border control !!!

So a border happens by default..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2019)

There is of course the hope that, given the Irish and NI Republicans will know who is to blame for forcing the erection of EU border control in Ireland in the event of No Deal Brexit, the extremists will be less inclined to attack anything the Irish side of the border. 

And they will know who to blame - or who they will *choose *to blame - for that border control and the economic catastrophe that Ireland might experience.  And no matter who the UK might point the finger of blame at for the No Deal, I very much doubt that it will be Ireland.


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## GB72 (Oct 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There is of course the hope that, given the Irish and NI Republicans will know who is to blame for forcing the erection of EU border control in Ireland in the event of No Deal Brexit, the extremists will be less inclined to attack anything the Irish side of the border.

And they will know who to blame - or who they will *choose *to blame - for that border control and the economic catastrophe that Ireland might experience.  And no matter who the UK might point the finger of blame at for the No Deal, I very much doubt that it will be Ireland.
		
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I did note last week that Veradkar mentioned 5 ways of dealing with the boarder. Cannot remember number 5 but the other 4 were backstop, no Brexit, NI leaves UK or Ireland joins UK. Cannot see any of them happening


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2019)

u


GB72 said:



			I did note last week that Veradkar mentioned 5 ways of dealing with the boarder. Cannot remember number 5 but the other 4 were backstop, no Brexit, NI leaves UK or Ireland joins UK. Cannot see any of them happening
		
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Unification I believe was #5


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## GB72 (Oct 8, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			u

Unification I believe was #5
		
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Meant that by NI leaving UK but could have been 2, NI leaves UK and is an independent country still in Europe or NI forms part of unified Ireland. Maybe unsurprisingly bearing in mind the proposals, I cannot for the life of me find the quote


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Meant that by NI leaving UK but could have been 2, NI leaves UK and is an independent country still in Europe or NI forms part of unified Ireland. Maybe unsurprisingly bearing in mind the proposals, I cannot for the life of me find the quote
		
Click to expand...

He said the 5 ways to avoid a hard border were

_A united Ireland; Ireland rejoining the UK, the UK staying in the EU, the UK staying in the EU's Customs Union and the Single Market, and the backstop. He said four of those five options, including a united Ireland - but not Ireland rejoining the UK - would be acceptable to the Irish government.' _


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## Dando (Oct 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Jeez, are we now scenario planning on what Tashy's AirBnB host has apparently heard 'on the street' in Australia? Who next, Johnny the shoeshine guy from Police Squad?
		
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Itâ€™s up there with SILHâ€™s sources


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2019)

Dando said:



			Itâ€™s up there with SILHâ€™s sources
		
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What sources are you referring to?  The French barber?  Well he said he'd go back to France and indeed he's gone back to France.

So I believed that EU27 national source who said he was going back to France...at least in part because of Brexit

That's one source - any more?


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## Del_Boy (Oct 8, 2019)

Simplest solution NI have a referendum stay in the UK and accept a hard border or leave the UK and do their own thing with Ireland and the EU


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 8, 2019)

Del_Boy said:



			Simplest solution NI have a referendum stay in the UK and accept a hard border or leave the UK and do their own thing with Ireland and the EU
		
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There is nothing simple when it comes to NI and being linked to the UK or Ireland 

Any deal or Brexit must take into account all four counties


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 8, 2019)

Comment from a NI border resident......â€¦..in two years the DUP has done more for a United Ireland than the 30 years of IRA bombing and killings.


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## Del_Boy (Oct 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is nothing simple when it comes to NI and being linked to the UK or Ireland

Any deal or Brexit must take into account all four counties
		
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A deal cannot take into account all 4 countries the 3 smaller ones want to stay in the EU.  The largest wants to leave


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 8, 2019)

Del_Boy said:



			A deal cannot take into account all 4 countries the 3 smaller ones want to stay in the EU.  The largest wants to leave
		
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Doesnâ€™t matter - we are in the EU as the UK and we must have a deal as the UK , leave as the UK or stay in as the UK

Itâ€™s one nation not 4.


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## Del_Boy (Oct 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Doesnâ€™t matter - we are in the EU as the UK and we must have a deal as the UK , leave as the UK or stay in as the UK

Itâ€™s one nation not 4.
		
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Simple answer to that is UK voted to leave


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## Dando (Oct 8, 2019)

Del_Boy said:



			Simple answer to that is UK voted to leave
		
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Youâ€™d never have guessed!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 8, 2019)

Sobering thought from Fosh regarding the present Bexit situation.

'It's like the final episode of Blackadder, when it stops being a comedy'.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 8, 2019)

What a load of bollocks being spoken here. The simple solution to all this current crap would have been the EU to have been prepared to negotiate a free trade deal as part of the withdraw agreement, this would have negated all this current prevarication over the Irish border
 The ONLY reason this was refused by the EU and accepted by may and her team was that they didnt want us to leave.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			So....free movement from EU bad...
Free movement from other country good.
I'm lost at what the difference is...
		
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The difference is that free movement coming from the EU Is the mass migration of unskilled workers coming to the UK. Yes some workers are skilled but all, no. Do they all enhance my lifestyle. Er no. Australia has a migration policy. Skilled workers that they are short of. If that policy had been instigated in the UK we would not be leaving the EU. But I suspect you already knew that.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 8, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Interesting, my mate who lives and works in Melbourne says the whole process of getting a work  Visa is a disgrace and isn't helping the economy in Australia. I know I had to jump through lots of hoops and tell them just about my whole life story (I didn't tell them about the tee shot at Tyneside which went 5 feet ðŸ¤£) and that was just for a temporary 3 month work visa.
		
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My lad had already told me what the Guy told me.( Ironically the guy works for Sirco  a British company). Agreed the process is hard re getting working visas, and from state to state you have to be on a skilled list. Theres a shortage of Hairdressers I kid you not. They are on the list. Lad is working on Solar farm and earning 2,500 aus dollars a week.
They struggle to get Aussies out there. ðŸ˜³. He is a class 1 lorry driver, plater welder and fabricated my trades, but does not have the skills. Yet comparisons are being made between that and  letting in an eastern European car washer in the UK. If leaving the EU opens better doors, and closes certain doors crack on.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Youre confusing illegal immigrants with legal.....
		
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So I will ask you what you asked me, what's the difference.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What a load of bollocks being spoken here. The simple solution to all this current crap would have been the EU to have been prepared to negotiate a free trade deal as part of the withdraw agreement, this would have negated all this current prevarication over the Irish border
The ONLY reason this was refused by the EU and accepted by may and her team was that they didnt want *our money *to leave.
		
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Fixed that for you.  They really have no interest in us staying whatsoever, it's just that their federalist state plans will fall apart without our cash.  We never have been, nor ever will be, full members of the family.


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## robinthehood (Oct 9, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			So I will ask you what you asked me, what's the difference.
		
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Between legal and illegal ...?
Oof.


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## Hobbit (Oct 9, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			The difference is that free movement coming from the EU Is the mass migration of unskilled workers coming to the UK. Yes some workers are skilled but all, no. Do they all enhance my lifestyle. Er no. Australia has a migration policy. Skilled workers that they are short of. If that policy had been instigated in the UK we would not be leaving the EU. But I suspect you already knew that.
		
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Do you need to be skilled to pick cabbages? Equally, if the UK has a surplus of IT technicians does it really need more?

Skill has little to do with it, but need does. As you say, a hairdresser is needed Oz but some other trades aren't. The same would apply in the UK, or should.


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## drdel (Oct 9, 2019)

I'm more and more confused by Varadkar's stance.

Last week he called for 'manufactured' goods to be included in the UK's proposition, now he says the whole 'deal' is a non-starter. Apart from the obvious economic impact I'd have thought Ireland's reliance on the UK's RAF (Ireland has 2 aircraft and about 7,000 personnel) he would have been more likely to have pushed for sensible timescales and plans. Perhaps the new EU military will set up a base or two and patrol the area !

Its obviously in the UK's/NATO interests to maintain patrols but there seems to be little mention of defence.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm more and more confused by Varadkar's stance.

Last week he called for 'manufactured' goods to be included in the UK's proposition, now he says the whole 'deal' is a non-starter. Apart from the obvious economic impact *I'd have thought Ireland's reliance on the UK's RAF (Ireland has 2 aircraft and about 7,000 personnel) would have been more likely to have pushed for sensible timescales and plans*. Perhaps the new EU military will set up a base or two and patrol the area !

Its obviously in the UK's/NATO interests to maintain patrols but there seems to little mention of defence.
		
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Much like the German car manufacturers?  Or the French Wine and cheese producers? I am sure these were all important voices of some kind, but on their own I may suggest that certain areas of the press may have over exaggerated their importance when compared to the overall principles that the EU laid out pretty clearly for all to know a long time ago.


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## drdel (Oct 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Much like the German car manufacturers?  Or the French Wine and cheese producers? I am sure these were all important voices of some kind, but on their own I may suggest that certain areas of the press may have over exaggerated their importance when compared to the overall principles that the EU laid out pretty clearly for all to know a long time ago.
		
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So why have they wasted 3 years asking for the UK to provide a solution which was never going to fly?


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## spongebob59 (Oct 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			So why have they wasted 3 years asking for the UK to provide a solution which was never going to fly?
		
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 3 years = more Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What a load of bollocks being spoken here. The simple solution to all this current crap would have been the EU to have been prepared to negotiate a free trade deal as part of the withdraw agreement, this would have negated all this current prevarication over the Irish border
The ONLY reason this was *refused by the EU* and accepted by may and her team was that *they didnt want us to leave.*

Click to expand...

So which word of that did we not know when we voted to leave.

Which word of that did we not know when being told by lead leavers that leaving would be so easy; it would be the easiest deal in human history (Liam Fox); that we'd have the deal of our choice (Farage I believe); that the German car industry (Digby Jones), the French cheese and wine and the Italian prosecco producers would demand that the EU strikes a good deal with us.  What bit of that did we not know...?  We knew it all.

But when it was pointed out that the EU would stick to their guns over the CU especially - that they *had *to stick to their guns; that they would uphold the underpinnings of GFA - that was all dismissed as the scaremongering of Project Fear and to be ignored.  What bit of that did we not know.

But no pointing at Project Fear for the evidence that leavers knew that a No Deal exit was likely if we did not understand the EUs red lines and set out our negotiating stall in the context of them - accepting them as very severe constraints on any deal that might be struck.   Because Leave voters were told to ignore anything to do with Project Fear - to dismiss it as unrealistic scaremongering.

Which bit of all of this did we not know.

But - as said - today I feel thoroughly depressed and full of despair for our country - riven by Brexit - and daily the wedge is hammered in by such as the abhorrent Leave.EU twitter post.  Well at least it makes clear the stinking thinking of those who thought it a good idea.  But it's out there - no point in apologising.  Their apologies are empty.  It was deliberate - it stokes the fury further.  Desperate.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So which word of that did we not know when we voted to leave. 

Which word of that did we not know when being told by lead leavers that leaving would be so easy; it would be the easiest deal in human history (Liam Fox); that we'd have the deal of our choice; that the German car industry (Digby Jones), the French cheese and wine and the Italian prosecco producers would demand that the EU strikes a good deal with us.  What bit of that did we not know...?  We knew it all. 

But when it was pointed out that the EU would stick to their guns over the CU especially - that they *had *to stick to their guns; that they would uphold the underpinnings of GFA - that was all dismissed as the scaremongering of Project Fear and to be ignored.  What bit of that did we not know. 

But no pointing at Project Fear for the evidence that leavers knew that a No Deal exit was likely if we did not understand the EUs red lines and set out our negotiating stall in the context of them - accepting them as very severe constraints on any deal that might be struck.   Because Leave voters were told to ignore anything to do with Project Fear - to dismiss it as unrealistic scaremongering.

Which bit of all of this did we not know.
		
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We just didn't realise JUST HOW MUCH THE EU NEEDED US!!!! They are trying to make it as difficult as possible. Boris, however, is doing the same and we will be out on the 31st with NO DEAL (I hope).  My God what a brilliant Halloween night I'm gonna have that night if it happens. I'm being made redundant (maybe) that day. Nice pay out and a BIG PARTY ! (hopefully)


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			So why have they wasted 3 years asking for the UK to provide a solution which was never going to fly?
		
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As I've said in a previous post, perhaps they were expecting the UK to spend that time negotiating with the EU instead of spending that time negotiating with itself.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 9, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			We just didn't realise JUST HOW MUCH THE EU NEEDED US!!!! They are trying to make it as difficult as possible. Boris, however, is doing the same and we will be out on the 31st with NO DEAL (I hope).  My God what a brilliant Halloween night I'm gonna have that night if it happens. I'm being made redundant (maybe) that day. Nice pay out and a BIG PARTY ! (hopefully)
		
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Good luck in your redundancy. You'll not have to worry about losing your job then.

BTW - I assume that you will be toasting the EU as you are getting what you want...though you must excuse me for not believing that you voted to leave specifically wanting no deal to be agreed.  You might have.  But I suspect that most leave voters did not - as No Deal was not what they were sold.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			We just didn't realise JUST HOW MUCH THE EU NEEDED US!!!! They are trying to make it as difficult as possible. Boris, however, is doing the same and we will be out on the 31st with NO DEAL (I hope).  My God what a brilliant Halloween night I'm gonna have that night if it happens. I'm being made redundant (maybe) that day. Nice pay out and a BIG PARTY ! (hopefully)
		
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Genuinely don't know if you are being ironic or serious. Being really happy that you are being made redundant and we will be out with no deal on the same day makes me feel you are being ironic, but I just don't know nowadays.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Do you need to be skilled to pick cabbages? Equally, if the UK has a surplus of IT technicians does it really need more?

Skill has little to do with it, but need does. As you say, a hairdresser is needed Oz but some other trades aren't. The same would apply in the UK, or should.
		
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That's exactly my point H and that's why skills vary from state to state. ðŸ‘


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## Tashyboy (Oct 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Between legal and illegal ...?
Oof.
		
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So let's get this right, those coming across europe, across the channel from Iran and Iraq having paid people smugglers are legal or illegal and benefitting our society. Hmmm.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Genuinely don't know if you are being ironic or serious. Being really happy that you are being made redundant and we will be out with no deal on the same day makes me feel you are being ironic, but I just don't know nowadays.
		
Click to expand...

Not after sympathy, genuine. Although it's gonna be hell finding a similar "job". Doing so little and getting paid to do it.  Luckilliy don't need full time.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2019)

Bearing in mind that it is in the guardian which brings its own preconceptions from both sides, but I thought this was a thoughtful piece that only occasionally veered into hyperbole, but made some good points nonetheless. IMHO of course, it isn't fact, it's an opinion.  https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-crisis-global-capitalism-britain-place-world


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## robinthehood (Oct 9, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			So let's get this right, those coming across europe, across the channel from Iran and Iraq having paid people smugglers are legal or illegal and benefitting our society. Hmmm.
		
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What do immigrants from Iran,  Iraq etc ,legal or otherwise, have to do with brexit?

Last week it was rambling on about the Lisbon treaty,  what can we expect next week ? Retweets of leave.eus feed ?
Total rammell


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## drdel (Oct 9, 2019)

Irish finance minister confused by BBC's Robinson question on the paradox that Ireland won't accept the deal that progressively implements 'light touch' customs check but will push for a No Deal that requires immediate customs/border checks !!


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			Irish finance minister confused by BBC's Robinson question on the paradox that Ireland won't accept the deal that progressively implements 'light touch' customs check but will push for a No Deal that requires immediate customs/border checks !!
		
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It is a contradiction isn't it? Both sides are wanting the other to blink over this issue but Boris and team need to be asking that question over and over again. Really ram it home, the no deal being far worse for this issue than the compromise deal.


----------



## drdel (Oct 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It is a contradiction isn't it? Both sides are wanting the other to blink over this issue but Boris and team need to be asking that question over and over again. Really ram it home, the no deal being far worse for this issue than the compromise deal.
		
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Yup. Fundamentally I don't think Macron, Merkel and Brussels really give a toss about Ireland and they will gradually marginalise it as too much hassle, over time; once they've thrown money at it to seem to be the good guys.


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## GB72 (Oct 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			Yup. Fundamentally I don't think Macron, Merkel and Brussels really give a toss about Ireland and they will gradually marginalise it as too much hassle, over time; once they've thrown money at it to seem to be the good guys.
		
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Yep, if I were Ireland I would be getting my demands in now for EU cash and incentives. They are the trump card at the moment, they agree to any proposals for a deal and the EU position folds. At the moment the EU can play the Ireland card and not have to even worry about other points


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## Tashyboy (Oct 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What do immigrants from Iran,  Iraq etc ,legal or otherwise, have to do with brexit?

Last week it was rambling on about the Lisbon treaty,  what can we expect next week ? Retweets of leave.eus feed ?
Total rammell
		
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I was being an arse, I knew that before I asked the question. You didnt realise when you asked the difference between flooding the UK with eastern European non skilled car washers and contributing sod all to the UK, and free movement between skilled workers between the UK and Oz. If you cannot recognise that unpoliced migration of non skilled people coming to the UK was a source of concern to people in the UK. Then you are wasting your time posting on here. A bit more rammel for you there ðŸ‘


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## robinthehood (Oct 9, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I was being an arse, I knew that before I asked the question. You didnt realise when you asked the difference between flooding the UK with eastern European non skilled car washers and contributing sod all to the UK, and free movement between skilled workers between the UK and Oz. If you cannot recognise that unpoliced migration of non skilled people coming to the UK was a source of concern to people in the UK. Then you are wasting your time posting on here. A bit more rammel for you there ðŸ‘
		
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Deary me .
I really don't know where to start.
So I won't bother 
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## woody69 (Oct 9, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What a load of bollocks being spoken here. The simple solution to all this current crap would have been the EU to have been prepared to negotiate a free trade deal as part of the withdraw agreement, this would have negated all this current prevarication over the Irish border
The ONLY reason this was refused by the EU and accepted by may and her team was that they didnt want us to leave.
		
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I think you find the ONLY reason a Withdrawal Agreement was presented rather than an FTA was because Article 50, which was drafted by the Scottish cross-bench peer and former diplomat Lord Kerr clearly states:

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, *the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.* That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament 

So yeah, you know, the law and all that nonsense.


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## drdel (Oct 9, 2019)

Guardian reports talks between the EU and UK have stopped with no progress . Sky and Express reports Juncker is going to offer something.

It nice to be reliably informed


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## patricks148 (Oct 9, 2019)

was sitting next to a dutch couple in Saville the other day as 3 English guys walked past, the dutch guy tapped his wife and pointed saying " Brexshitters" at them, they both then laughed to each other.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			So why have they wasted 3 years asking for the UK to provide a solution which was never going to fly?
		
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Simply because the solution was always going to be about how right wing UK politicians responded to Ireland.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2019)

drdel said:



			Guardian reports talks between the EU and UK have stopped with no progress . Sky and Express reports Juncker is going to offer something.

It nice to be reliably informed 

Click to expand...

With the caveat that using The Express as a reliable source of information is optimistic at best, I imagine both sides are spinning like hell to anyone who will listen to try and get their point across.


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## adam6177 (Oct 9, 2019)

"amazing" news coming out about Bercow and david sassoli - supposedly Bercow has been negotiating with the EU on how to disrupt the no deal brexit process.

If this is true I wonder what/if there could be any kind of prosecution.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			"amazing" news coming out about Bercow and david sassoli - *supposedly Bercow has been negotiating with the EU on how to disrupt the no deal brexit process.*

If this is true I wonder what/if there could be any kind of prosecution.
		
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Is this from Farage's or Tice's twitter feeds? 

I mean here's another version of it with a slightly fewer unhinged conspiracy theories and talk of prosecutions.  http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/...peaker-of-the-uk-house-of-commons-john-bercow


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## IanM (Oct 9, 2019)

No, there is a EU Parliament clip on twitter of Sassoli speaking about it... 

Farage was lying about the EU Army....until the EU said they were setting up an Army!


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## MegaSteve (Oct 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			was sitting next to a dutch couple in Saville the other day as 3 English guys walked past, the dutch guy tapped his wife and pointed saying " Brexshitters" at them, they both then laughed to each other.
		
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Interesting... My lad speaks on an almost daily basis to folk in the Netherlands... At first, they advised, they were a little/lot jealous of being in the position of escaping the clutches of Brussels... Now, they say, they can't believe how appallingly bad/inept our politicians are...

The folk in the German office (HQ) can't believe sales are up and wonder why the UK haven't put a block on EU businesses in the same manner blocks have been put on UK businesses since the vote...


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## spongebob59 (Oct 9, 2019)

If this is true its an utter disgrace:


Richard Tice

@TiceRichard
 Â· 1h
BREAKING: here in Brussels new President Sassoli admits in chamber that he has bypassed the UK PM and Govt and is now in direct discussions with Bercow about Brexit negotiations. He refused to take my urgent question on what authority they had to have these discussions.


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## IanM (Oct 9, 2019)

Been going on for months.... 

When I see "by whom" and "how" leaving is prevented, it makes it more important.  But I've always said we won't be allowed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			If this is true its an utter disgrace:


Richard Tice

@TiceRichard
Â· 1h
BREAKING: here in Brussels new President Sassoli admits in chamber that he has bypassed the UK PM and Govt and is now in direct discussions with Bercow about Brexit negotiations. He refused to take my urgent question on what authority they had to have these discussions.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

You really think thatâ€™s happening


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## spongebob59 (Oct 9, 2019)

yes
next
https://order-order.com/2019/10/09/eu-president-bercow-working-block-no-deal/


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			yes
next
https://order-order.com/2019/10/09/eu-president-bercow-working-block-no-deal/

Click to expand...

Again that means nothing two people talking to each - no one bypassed , just talking to someone. And is it actually what he is saying ? Can anyone confirm the translation.


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So which word of that did we not know when we voted to leave.

Which word of that did we not know when being told by lead leavers that leaving would be so easy; it would be the easiest deal in human history (Liam Fox); that we'd have the deal of our choice (Farage I believe); that the German car industry (Digby Jones), the French cheese and wine and the Italian prosecco producers would demand that the EU strikes a good deal with us.  What bit of that did we not know...?  We knew it all.

But when it was pointed out that the EU would stick to their guns over the CU especially - that they *had *to stick to their guns; that they would uphold the underpinnings of GFA - that was all dismissed as the scaremongering of Project Fear and to be ignored.  What bit of that did we not know.

But no pointing at Project Fear for the evidence that leavers knew that a No Deal exit was likely if we did not understand the EUs red lines and set out our negotiating stall in the context of them - accepting them as very severe constraints on any deal that might be struck.   Because Leave voters were told to ignore anything to do with Project Fear - to dismiss it as unrealistic scaremongering.

Which bit of all of this did we not know.

But - as said - today I feel thoroughly depressed and full of despair for our country - riven by Brexit - and daily the wedge is hammered in by such as the abhorrent Leave.EU twitter post.  Well at least it makes clear the stinking thinking of those who thought it a good idea.  But it's out there - no point in apologising.  Their apologies are empty.  It was deliberate - it stokes the fury further.  Desperate.
		
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Perhaps you wouldn't feel so depressed and full of despair if you closed your twitter account and stayed off social media. The remedy to your problem is easy


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps you wouldn't feel so depressed and full of despair if you closed your twitter account and stayed off social media. The remedy to your problem is easy
		
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I'm not on twitter.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			If this is true its an utter disgrace:


Richard Tice

@TiceRichard
Â· 1h
BREAKING: here in Brussels new President Sassoli admits in chamber that he has bypassed the UK PM and Govt and is now in direct discussions with Bercow about Brexit negotiations. He refused to take my urgent question on what authority they had to have these discussions.
		
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what can Bercow do about stopping it now!


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## spongebob59 (Oct 9, 2019)

I believe he sets the agenda


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 9, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Interesting... My lad speaks on an almost daily basis to folk in the Netherlands... At first, they advised, they were a little/lot jealous of being in the position of escaping the clutches of Brussels... Now, they say, they can't believe how appallingly bad/inept our politicians are...


There not the only ones
		
Click to expand...


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I believe he sets the agenda
		
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I thought parliament shut yesterday?


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

Strange, you mention 

But - as said - today I feel thoroughly depressed and full of despair for our country - riven by Brexit - and daily the wedge is hammered in by such as the abhorrent Leave.EU twitter post. Well at least it makes clear the stinking thinking of those who thought it a good idea. But it's out there - no point in apologising. Their apologies are empty. It was deliberate - it stokes the fury further. Desperate.

So why are you mentioning the abhorrent Leave EU Twitter post, cant be your barber telling you, he's gone home, perhaps it's your mates down the pub.


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## Hobbit (Oct 9, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Bearing in mind that it is in the guardian which brings its own preconceptions from both sides, but I thought this was a thoughtful piece that only occasionally veered into hyperbole, but made some good points nonetheless. IMHO of course, it isn't fact, it's an opinion.  https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-crisis-global-capitalism-britain-place-world

Click to expand...

Not a bad piece but, in my opinion not a fact, don't you think its contradictory of the piece to say that Brexit is only wanted by a small core of capitalists? Why would a capitalist want an economy to fail? Would a capitalist want to invest in failing industries, bearing in mind foreign investment is actually up? As for a small group of capitalists; not quite sure that constitutes 17.4m capitalists.

A well written, intelligently written piece but still well off the mark for accuracy. I think the writer misses the fact the Brexit hits a wide demographic of voters for a number of very different reasons. A typical Guardian piece written from a very rarified, sterile atmosphere devoid of a connection to the vast majority of Leave voters.


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## woody69 (Oct 9, 2019)

IanM said:



			No, there is a EU Parliament clip on twitter of Sassoli speaking about it...

Farage was lying about the EU Army....until the EU said they were setting up an Army!  

Click to expand...

There is no formal plans in place for an "EU Army". Why do you keep believing this nonsense?

Yes the EU has various policies for defensive and security cooperation. For example, under the Common Security and Defence Policy, where EU countries can pool military funding and resources and the UK participates in military operations through this policy.

The EU has also established Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) a strategy which aims to â€œjointly develop defence capabilities and make them available for EU military operationsâ€ which the UK has chosen not to participate in.

Just because you interpret these policies as an EU Army doesn't make it an EU Army.


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## robinthehood (Oct 9, 2019)

woody69 said:



			There is no formal plans in place for an "EU Army". Why do you keep believing this nonsense?

Yes the EU has various policies for defensive and security cooperation. For example, under the Common Security and Defence Policy, where EU countries can pool military funding and resources and the UK participates in military operations through this policy.

The EU has also established Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) a strategy which aims to â€œjointly develop defence capabilities and make them available for EU military operationsâ€ which the UK has chosen not to participate in.

Just because you interpret these policies as an EU Army doesn't make it an EU Army.
		
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Don't you know we will be forced into an EU army, the euro,  lose our veto .
It's true , i saw it on Twitter.


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## ger147 (Oct 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I thought parliament shut yesterday?
		
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It opens again next Monday and will be sitting on Saturday 19th October, deadline day for Boris to send the extension letter if he doesn't have a deal.

Bercow will be in the chair.


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

woody69 said:



			There is no formal plans in place for an "EU Army". Why do you keep believing this nonsense?

Yes the EU has various policies for defensive and security cooperation. For example, under the Common Security and Defence Policy, where EU countries can pool military funding and resources and the UK participates in military operations through this policy.

The EU has also established Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) a strategy which aims to â€œjointly develop defence capabilities and make them available for EU military operationsâ€ which the UK has chosen not to participate in.

Just because you interpret these policies as an EU Army doesn't make it an EU Army.
		
Click to expand...

No there are no formal plans but https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/

However as most EU countries in NATO fail to meet their obligations in that organisation it would be interesting to see how they would cope forming an EU army.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 9, 2019)

Andrew Neil giving Ton y Balir both barrels n BBC 2


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Andrew Neil giving Ton y Balir both barrels n BBC 2
		
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Made look a right fool


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## MegaSteve (Oct 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Andrew Neil giving Ton y Balir both barrels n BBC 2
		
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Pretty pointless interview/guest for me... Bloke is now totally irrelevant... Same goes for Major...


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Don't you know we will be forced into an EU army, the euro,  lose our veto .
It's true , i saw it on Twitter.
		
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we voted for a trading block but look what happened there.
Our politicians canâ€™t be trusted not to get us in deeper if we remain.
All the treaties that have been signed in our name have us where we are.


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## robinthehood (Oct 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			we voted for a trading block but look what happened there.
Our politicians canâ€™t be trusted not to get us in deeper if we remain.
All the treaties that have been signed in our name have us where we are.
		
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What's happened? My liberty isnt being impinged by the EU.
Employment at an all time high.
Sure we have issues, but they are not of the EU s making.

There is no gold at then end of the brexit rainbow.


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## robinthehood (Oct 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What's happened? My liberty isnt being impinged by the EU.
Employment at an all time high.
Sure we have issues, but they are not of the EU s making.

There is no gold at then end of the brexit rainbow.
		
Click to expand...

Well there is for some ðŸ˜‰


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What's happened? My liberty isnt being impinged by the EU.
Employment at an all time high.
Sure we have issues, but they are not of the EU s making.

There is no gold at then end of the brexit rainbow.
		
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Whatâ€™s happened is we have been embedded into the EU so much that we will not be allowed to leave.
The EU did the same to Ireland another ref until they got a Remain vote.

I just think what Merkel and Macron are saying â€œWe canâ€™t rely on the Americansâ€ is probably true while Donald is president.
If you look at their quotes they are heading for a EU army.
But only if they keep us and our money.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 9, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I think you find the ONLY reason a Withdrawal Agreement was presented rather than an FTA was because Article 50, which was drafted by the Scottish cross-bench peer and former diplomat Lord Kerr clearly states:

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, *the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.* That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament

So yeah, you know, the law and all that nonsense.
		
Click to expand...

That does not preclude a free trade arrangement or the outline of one  being part of the arrangements for a withdrawal. That was the UKs original wish but the EU insisted they would not discuss it until they had settled the arrangements for the monetary settlement and the Irish Border.

I reiterate that the solution to the Irish Border is a Trade Agreement where free trade would  negate the need for border checks.  The EU refused to do this as they knew it would create problems with  us reaching an agreement and their political advisors in the UK were assisting them on how to play it.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 9, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Andrew Neil giving Ton y Balir both barrels n BBC 2
		
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I have never seen Blair struggle that much.
Total lack of realistic argument.


----------



## drdel (Oct 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What's happened? My liberty isnt being impinged by the EU.
Employment at an all time high.
Sure we have issues, but they are not of the EU s making.

There is no gold at then end of the brexit rainbow.
		
Click to expand...

You have obviously ignored the switch of business to other countries funded by EU grants to the disadvantage of our taxpayers whose cash they've given away. While Germany has build large reserves by not meeting its full commitments.


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Whatâ€™s happened is we have been embedded into the EU so much that we will not be allowed to leave.
The EU did the same to Ireland another ref until they got a Remain vote.

I just think what Merkel and Macron are saying â€œWe canâ€™t rely on the Americansâ€ is probably true while Donald is president.
If you look at their quotes they are heading for a EU army.
But only if they keep us and our money.
		
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They cant rely on the US mostly because the US is thoroughly fed up with countries reneging on their NATO commitments.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 9, 2019)

Just watched a program about the channel tunnel... Part of which Eurotunnel advise of the 13M they have spent on fast track electronic systems the Berks of Brussels say don't exist...


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## Backache (Oct 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			They cant rely on the US mostly because the US is thoroughly fed up with countries reneging on their NATO commitments.
		
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I don't think anyone can rely on the US right now and it has nothing to do with reneging on commitments.
Look at the Kurds who helped US in their struggle against ISIS right now.


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

Backache said:



			I don't think anyone can rely on the US right now and it has nothing to do with reneging on commitments.
Look at the Kurds who helped US in their struggle against ISIS right now.
		
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It's  not new with the US and can't all be put at the door of Trump. They did it to the marsh Arabs in Iraq after Gulf 1 and it happens when American allies get up and go and leave the US holding the baby. Where is the rest of NATO, not in northern Iraq/Syria


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## Backache (Oct 9, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It's  not new with the US and can't all be put at the door of Trump. They did it to the marsh Arabs in Iraq after Gulf 1 and it happens when American allies get up and go and leave the US holding the baby. Where is the rest of NATO, not in northern Iraq/Syria
		
Click to expand...

I don't think Syria has ever been a NATO commitment, whether or not one thinks it should be . I still would not rely on this US administration in any shape or form .
I have seen absolutely no consistency of purpose whether it be us seizing Iranian tankers on their behalf . Kurds fighting ISIS or South Korea & Japan worried about North Korean missiles. Traditional American enemies treat them with impunity whilst traditional allies remain baffled and hamstrung.


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2019)

Backache said:



			I don't think Syria has ever been a NATO commitment, whether or not one thinks it should be . I still would not rely on this US administration in any shape or form .
I have seen absolutely no consistency of purpose whether it be us seizing Iranian tankers on their behalf . Kurds fighting ISIS or South Korea & Japan worried about North Korean missiles. Traditional American enemies treat them with impunity whilst traditional allies remain baffled and hamstrung.
		
Click to expand...

The tanker incident was because of UN sanctions and therefore done on their behalf.


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## Backache (Oct 9, 2019)

I think it is naive to suggest that the USA was not behind the UN and the intelligence gathering that caused us or rather to be pedantic Gibraltar to impound the tanker.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 9, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Interesting... My lad speaks on an almost daily basis to folk in the Netherlands... At first, they advised, they were a little/lot jealous of being in the position of escaping the clutches of Brussels... Now, they say, they can't believe how appallingly bad/inept our politicians are...

The folk in the German office (HQ) can't believe sales are up and wonder why the UK haven't put a block on EU businesses in the same manner blocks have been put on UK businesses since the vote...
		
Click to expand...

As much as I have no reason to doubt what you say, when it comes to the thoughts and verbal opinions of people from other countries. I was reliably  informed by others on here it's all bollox especially when it don't fit there thought process. 
The fact remains that Brexit is a global discussion and not just confined to this forum.


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## Beezerk (Oct 10, 2019)

On a slight tangent, does anyone have the figures which show the how the EU referendum results would have looked were Scotland not in the UK?
Just a bit of fun really, I heard an article on Radio 5 the other day where they had lots of Scottish independent supporters saying Scotland would be back in the EU if the UK were ever to leave.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 10, 2019)

Wonder where we would be now if he'd have got the gig?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182043799784177666


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 10, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Wonder where we would be now if he'd have got the gig?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182043799784177666

Click to expand...

I think the words "reverse Brexit" tell you exactly where we'd be.


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## Hobbit (Oct 10, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			On a slight tangent, does anyone have the figures which show the how the EU referendum results would have looked were Scotland not in the UK?
Just a bit of fun really, I heard an article on Radio 5 the other day where they had lots of Scottish independent supporters saying Scotland would be back in the EU if the UK were ever to leave.
		
Click to expand...

Thereâ€™s a number of articles listing the numbers that voted either way. Roughly, because I canâ€™t be bothered to look up the numbers, two thirds of Scottish voters voted Remain out of a total number of voters of just under 3m. 

In total, 17.4m voted Leave. Take off 1m Scottish Leave voters = 16.4m for Leave. Take off 1.7m Scottish Remain voters = 14.5m for Remain.

Not much change really.


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## oxymoron (Oct 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What's happened? My liberty isnt being impinged by the EU.
Employment at an all time high.
Sure we have issues, but they are not of the EU s making.

*There is no gold at then end of the brexit rainbow*.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know this ? Trouble is no one knows for sure its all opinion and heresay and for every single opinion\forecast there are 10 opposites , so as you are fond of saying ,, oof


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 10, 2019)

oxymoron said:



*How do you know this ?* Trouble is no one knows for sure its all opinion and heresay and for every single opinion\forecast there are 10 opposites , so as you are fond of saying ,, oof
		
Click to expand...

The same way we know there will be an EU army.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 10, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			On a slight tangent, does anyone have the figures which show the how the EU referendum results would have looked were Scotland not in the UK?
Just a bit of fun really, I heard an article on Radio 5 the other day where they had lots of Scottish independent supporters saying Scotland would be back in the EU if the UK were ever to leave.
		
Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resul...European_Union_membership_referendum#Scotland
Just a click away.
An additional 600,000 votes for remain in the UK.
62% to 38% voted to remain.
Every single district voted to remain.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 10, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resul...European_Union_membership_referendum#Scotland
Just a click away.
An additional 600,000 votes for remain in the UK.
62% to 38% voted to remain.
Every single district voted to remain.
		
Click to expand...

I pity the poor sods in Banff and Buchan ðŸ˜


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## Old Skier (Oct 10, 2019)

Backache said:



			I don't think anyone can rely on the US right now and it has nothing to do with reneging on commitments.
Look at the Kurds who helped US in their struggle against ISIS right now.
		
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Perhaps you'd like to comment on the fact that the UK were also supporting the Kurds with both air support and boots on the ground and have withdrawn. Or is this just a Trump rant.


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## Old Skier (Oct 10, 2019)

Backache said:



			I think it is naive to suggest that the USA was not behind the UN and the intelligence gathering that caused us or rather to be pedantic Gibraltar to impound the tanker.
		
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The intelligence may have come from the US or us but we acted under a UN resolution. Are you suggesting that it should have been ignored even though it has since been proven that the tanker was sanction busting.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 10, 2019)

All signs are that Labour is now moving towards a position of saying there has to be a second referendum BEFORE an election. Incredible if true. But given there isn't a deal to have a referendum on, how would it solve anything? Frit, frit, frit. They know they would lose.


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## drdel (Oct 10, 2019)

Barnier has now said his brief has run its course so no more schedulled debate and any resolution is now political - wasn't it always?


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 10, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			All signs are that Labour is now moving towards a position of saying there has to be a second referendum BEFORE an election. Incredible if true. But given there isn't a deal to have a referendum on, how would it solve anything? Frit, frit, frit. They know they would lose.
		
Click to expand...

With the numbers in the HoC could the opposition parties get together and introduce legislation to hold a 2nd referendum? And if so is there anything that the government could do to stop it or to force a GE instead?


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## ger147 (Oct 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			With the numbers in the HoC could the opposition parties get together and introduce legislation to hold a 2nd referendum? And if so is there anything that the government could do to stop it or to force a GE instead?
		
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Probably not, unlikely the rebel Tories would support the opposition to do that. The government no longer has a majority but neither does the opposition as the rebel Tories are likely to continue to side with the government on certain issues, so on any give day and issue, who has a majority depends.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Barnier has now said his brief has run its course so no more schedulled debate and any resolution is now political - *wasn't it always?*

Click to expand...

Yup, it's mostly been one long exercise in maintaining political power on both sides and arguably very little actual proper negotiations. And it would be no surprise to anyone if it ends up in the worst possible outcome for (the majority of people in) the UK and EU.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 10, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Probably not, unlikely the rebel Tories would support the opposition to do that. The government no longer has a majority but neither does the opposition as the rebel Tories are likely to continue to side with the government on certain issues, so on any give day and issue, who has a majority depends.
		
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So if I'm understanding you correctly what you're saying is that we're totally screwed and the chances of getting anything sorted one way or another are pretty much bugger all?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So if I'm understanding you correctly what you're saying is that *we're totally screwed and the chances of getting anything sorted one way or another are pretty much bugger all?*

Click to expand...

You only just cottoned on to this? You could argue we've been like this since the morning after the referendum when it suddenly became a political psycho drama in the UK.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			You only just cottoned on to this? You could argue we've been like this since the morning after the referendum when it suddenly became a political psycho drama in the UK.  

Click to expand...

Much like our *revered leader Boris, I haven't really been paying too much attention to the details. I've carried on with my life using my standard motto which is "It'll be fine. It always is". At some point something will happen, whether that is Leave with No Deal, Leave with a deal or Revoke Article 50 and Remain, and my life will continue pretty much as it always has done.

* feel free to use your own word here but I chose "revered" to avoid Mod displeasure.


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## drdel (Oct 10, 2019)

Last October Barnier told EU leaders customs checks could use technology and be remote from the borders,  possibly in the Irish Sea. He has now declared such systems to be Unworkable.

I guess the goal posts are on wheels with Bercow etc steering.


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## ger147 (Oct 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So if I'm understanding you correctly what you're saying is that we're totally screwed and the chances of getting anything sorted one way or another are pretty much bugger all?
		
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As we say in these parts, aye!!


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## oxymoron (Oct 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			The same way we know there will be an EU army.
		
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Again  opinion, suspicion and reading between lines , is this in black and white ? can you point me to where it is please ?
If the EU is intent on having its own armed forces good luck to it it will need it with this shower in charge .


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## Backache (Oct 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The intelligence may have come from the US or us but we acted under a UN resolution. Are you suggesting that it should have been ignored even though it has since been proven that the tanker was sanction busting.
		
Click to expand...

There are 101 UN resolutions it is pointless trying to implement them in an uncoordinated fashion.
Acting as patsies and putting our own shipping at risk for the current occupant of the White House who treats allies with disdain is a mugs game.


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## drdel (Oct 10, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Again  opinion, suspicion and reading between lines , is this in black and white ? can you point me to where it is please ?
If the EU is intent on having its own armed forces good luck to it it will need it with this shower in charge .
		
Click to expand...

Official line...
https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters...18-eu-capability-development-plan-approved_ja


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## Slime (Oct 10, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So if I'm understanding you correctly what you're saying is that we're totally screwed and *the chances of getting anything sorted one way or another are pretty much bugger all*?
		
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Hacker Khan said:



			You only just cottoned on to this? You could argue *we've been like this since the morning after the referendum when it suddenly became a political psycho drama in the UK*.  

Click to expand...

We've been like this since the morning after the referendum when remainers refused to accept the result.


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## woody69 (Oct 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Official line...
https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters...18-eu-capability-development-plan-approved_ja

Click to expand...

Yep, still no EU "Army". Just more talk about the various defence policies and security cooperation, some of which the UK has chosen not to participate in.


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## woody69 (Oct 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That does not preclude a free trade arrangement or the outline of one  being part of the arrangements for a withdrawal. That was the UKs original wish but the EU insisted they would not discuss it until they had settled the arrangements for the monetary settlement and the Irish Border.

I reiterate that the solution to the Irish Border is a Trade Agreement where free trade would  negate the need for border checks.  The EU refused to do this as they knew it would create problems with  us reaching an agreement and their political advisors in the UK were assisting them on how to play it.
		
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Do you have a source for this?


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 10, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Again  opinion, suspicion and reading between lines , is this in black and white ? can you point me to where it is please ?
If the EU is intent on having its own armed forces good luck to it it will need it with this shower in charge .
		
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merkel and Macron usually get what they want being two of the biggest contributors.
Guess who the other one is?
Without us it will fall apart ,itâ€™s all to do with money .


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## drdel (Oct 10, 2019)

If my memory is right I understood that Varadkar's predecessor Edna Kenny was working on technology managed borders; the new guys obviously forgotten all about that to try for a united Ireland !


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## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Do you have a source for this?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, the knobbly thing that sits between my shoulders.  There is nothing in the wording of article 50 that excludes a free trade agreement forming part of the Withdrawl Agreement.  Dave Davis wanted to do this but it was the EU insisting that they prefered this to be part of a Future Settlement and May folding from the previous statement. that 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed '


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## oxymoron (Oct 10, 2019)

woody69 ,drdell and clubchamp98 thanks for the answers . 
On a slightly different note i think i saw somewhere that the new EU bloke David Sassoli  has said an extention will not be given unless there is to be another referendum or election ?
Meddling in member states politics seems to be already an established routine ( the road to federalism ?) It really is about time we told them to sod off once and for all


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## robinthehood (Oct 10, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			woody69 ,drdell and clubchamp98 thanks for the answers .
On a slightly different note i think i saw somewhere that the new EU bloke David Sassoli  has said an extention will not be given unless there is to be another referendum or election ?
Meddling in member states politics seems to be already an established routine ( the road to federalism ?) It really is about time we told them to sod off once and for all
		
Click to expand...

I agree with him, what's the point in an extension  if it's just more of the same for another 6 months.


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## Reemul (Oct 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I agree with him, what's the point in an extension  if it's just more of the same for another 6 months.
		
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Exactly so just say no to the extension but that's not what they want.


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## woody69 (Oct 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, the knobbly thing that sits between my shoulders.  There is nothing in the wording of article 50 that excludes a free trade agreement forming part of the Withdrawl Agreement.  Dave Davis wanted to do this but* it was the EU insisting that they prefered this to be part of a Future Settlement *and May folding from the previous statement. that 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed '
		
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This is what I am asking if you have a source for. You seem to be implying the EU refused to do something because they were being obstructive, rather than David Davis not actually understanding how the process was supposed to work and considering the numerous misunderstandings he has had I'm not sure why you are so confident the issue here was the EU and not the former BREXIT Secretary.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2019)

woody69 said:



			This is what I am asking if you have a source for. You seem to be implying the EU refused to do something because they were being obstructive, rather than David Davis not actually understanding how the process was supposed to work and considering the numerous misunderstandings he has had I'm not sure why you are so confident the issue here was the EU and not the former BREXIT Secretary.
		
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The point I am trying to make is that a Free Trade agreement negotiated as part of the Withdrawl Agreement would have gone most of the way to negating the Irish Border Issues. The other point is that this was kicked into the long grass by the IR due to it not helping their real objective of a United Ireland also the EU wanting to create enough disruption to keep us in.
If you believe Article 50 disallows this then please point out where it disallows it.


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## Mudball (Oct 10, 2019)

Who is Will?  I still think that Ref2 which asks no-deal or in is the way to go..   But who is Will?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181811529840304128


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## Hobbit (Oct 10, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Who is Will?  I still think that Ref2 which asks no-deal or in is the way to go..   But who is Will?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181811529840304128

Click to expand...



I'm Spartacus!


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## woody69 (Oct 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The point I am trying to make is that a Free Trade agreement negotiated as part of the Withdrawl Agreement would have gone most of the way to negating the Irish Border Issues. The other point is that this was kicked into the long grass by the IR due to it not helping their real objective of a United Ireland also the EU wanting to create enough disruption to keep us in.
If you believe Article 50 disallows this then please point out where it disallows it.
		
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You said "The ONLY reason this was refused by the EU and accepted by may and her team was that they didnt want us to leave." in terms of not negotiating a FTA either before or as part of the talks.

Negotiating this partnership cannot be done under Article 50, which is confined to the withdrawal itself. I already pasted the pertinent text from A50, but here it is again. I have highlighted the key sentences

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its
intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall
negotiate and *conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its
withdrawal*, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. T*hat
agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the
Functioning of the European Union*. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the
Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

Other Treaty provisions will provide the basis of a future trade agreement â€“ or agreements as the deal might comprise one or more Treaties. In essence, trade agreements with third countries (that, is, non EU member states), can either be agreed under Article 207 or Article 217 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU). And we cannot conclude the future trade agreement until we have left the EU and become a third country.

All this is fairly moot though as it doesn't really matter any more, but you're making out the EU were putting up blockers to prevent us from leaving, when it is nothing of the sort.


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## Hobbit (Oct 10, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You said "The ONLY reason this was refused by the EU and accepted by may and her team was that they didnt want us to leave." in terms of not negotiating a FTA either before or as part of the talks.

Negotiating this partnership cannot be done under Article 50, which is confined to the withdrawal itself. I already pasted the pertinent text from A50, but here it is again. I have highlighted the key sentences

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its
intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall
negotiate and *conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its
withdrawal*, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. T*hat
agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the
Functioning of the European Union*. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the
Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

Other Treaty provisions will provide the basis of a future trade agreement â€“ or agreements as the deal might comprise one or more Treaties. In essence, trade agreements with third countries (that, is, non EU member states), can either be agreed under Article 207 or Article 217 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU). And we cannot conclude the future trade agreement until we have left the EU and become a third country.

All this is fairly moot though as it doesn't really matter any more, but you're making out the EU were putting up blockers to prevent us from leaving, when it is nothing of the sort.
		
Click to expand...

Technically, you're spot on the number.

But a rhetorical question; why couldn't a trade deal negotiation be at least started and, potentially, signed off the day after Brexit Day? Cynically, someone might say the EU have deliberately dragged their heels... but only if they were a cynic.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You said "The ONLY reason this was refused by the EU and accepted by may and her team was that they didnt want us to leave." in terms of not negotiating a FTA either before or as part of the talks.

Negotiating this partnership cannot be done under Article 50, which is confined to the withdrawal itself. I already pasted the pertinent text from A50, but here it is again. I have highlighted the key sentences

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its
intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall
negotiate and *conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its
withdrawal*, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. T*hat
agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the
Functioning of the European Union*. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the
Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

Other Treaty provisions will provide the basis of a future trade agreement â€“ or agreements as the deal might comprise one or more Treaties. In essence, trade agreements with third countries (that, is, non EU member states), can either be agreed under Article 207 or Article 217 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU). And we cannot conclude the future trade agreement until we have left the EU and become a third country.

All this is fairly moot though as it doesn't really matter any more, but you're making out the EU were putting up blockers to prevent us from leaving, when it is nothing of the sort.
		
Click to expand...

I still disagree with what you suggest. Why can't a Free Trade agreement or the framework for it be part of the arrangements for its withdrawl, nothing in art 50 prevents it.


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## Foxholer (Oct 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I still disagree with what you suggest. Why can't a Free Trade agreement or the framework for it be part of the arrangements for its withdrawl, nothing in art 50 prevents it.
		
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Nothing in A50 prevents pretty much anything, including peace in the Middle East, but that doesn't mean it's likely to happen or even be considered!

My view is that 'A50 and the withdrawal negotiations' were 'sold' by the Leave campaign as a 'Future Arrangements/Whole Deal' arrangements, when it/they was/were never likely to be about anything but the withdrawal! EU was never going to get into any discussions about 'future arrangements' until the withdrawal issue had been settled. It's part of their 'negotiating armoury' to work that way after all! And, from memory, they even actually said so!


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## Mudball (Oct 10, 2019)

So our leading Brexiteer Dyson has f*ed off..  First moved HQ to Singapore but always said that his car will create more jobs.   And now he has cleaned up.   He makes the best suckers..


This was Dyson in Oct 2018..
* No deal is fine; car manufacturers are talking rubbish
* I'm creating 2000 jobs for people building my new car in Wiltshire












*If Dyson can scrap his electric car because it's not viable, can we face reality and do the same with Brexit please? *


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## PieMan (Oct 10, 2019)

Nothing to do with Brexit. Said it wasn't commercially viable and couldn't find a buyer for the project.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Nothing in A50 prevents pretty much anything, including peace in the Middle East, but that doesn't mean it's likely to happen or even be considered!

My view is that 'A50 and the withdrawal negotiations' were 'sold' by the Leave campaign as a 'Future Arrangements/Whole Deal' arrangements, when it/they was/were never likely to be about anything but the withdrawal! EU was never going to get into any discussions about 'future arrangements' until the withdrawal issue had been settled. It's part of their 'negotiating armoury' to work that way after all! And, from memory, they even actually said so!
		
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Why stop at peace on the middle east but that's nothing to do with it. My point which I keep repeating without someone making a reasonable case against is that if a trade agreement or the framework for it was agreed the current turmoil could have been negated.  The ONLY reason I can see why this wasn't done was to frustrate the negotiations. If you or anyone disagrees with this proposition then explain why it would be technically unfeasable and would not have been a much better way of creating a deal that would work.


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## drdel (Oct 10, 2019)

Apparently the meeting between Varadkar and Johnson has led to their believing in a pathway to a deal.

I wonder if Ireland is waking up the the fact that the EU's route to Federalism would likely see them marginalised. The EU  certainly kicked them in 2008 when they left them high and dry with the banks.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So our leading Brexiteer Dyson has f*ed off..  First moved HQ to Singapore but always said that his car will create more jobs.   And now he has cleaned up.   He makes the best suckers..


This was Dyson in Oct 2018..
* No deal is fine; car manufacturers are talking rubbish
* I'm creating 2000 jobs for people building my new car in Wiltshire












*If Dyson can scrap his electric car because it's not viable, can we face reality and do the same with Brexit please? *

Click to expand...

What kind of twisted logic is that !


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## Old Skier (Oct 10, 2019)

Backache said:



			There are 101 UN resolutions it is pointless trying to implement them in an uncoordinated fashion.
Acting as patsies and putting our own shipping at risk for the current occupant of the White House who treats allies with disdain is a mugs game.
		
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So do I take it you are suggesting we ignor the UN and its resolutions or we just implement the ones that suit your political leanings.


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## Backache (Oct 10, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			So do I take it you are suggesting we ignor the UN and its resolutions or we just implement the ones that suit your political leanings.
		
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There have been over 40 resolutions this year alone we do not intervene in all of them. Acting on our own rather than in concert is daft . Trusting Trump is dafter still.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Apparently the meeting between Varadkar and Johnson has led to their believing in a pathway to a deal.

I wonder if Ireland is waking up the the fact that the EU's route to Federalism would likely see them marginalised. The EU  certainly kicked them in 2008 when they left them high and dry with the banks.
		
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Well it's all over twitter from the Irish Times that

_'So am hearing that there has been very significant movement from British side on the customs issue in the Johnson-Varadkar talks. Not clear on detail and not clear what concessions expected in return. But if what I hear is correct, it changes the picture substantially '_

Or Laura Kuenssberg reporting that

_'There's some speculation tonight that No 10 did signal a big move on their position on customs, stepping towards the Irish position - but remember if they have, it gets harder to get any deal through Parliament because the DUP would be very unhappy '_

Irish backstop anybody??


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 11, 2019)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...-group-report-says/ar-AAIB4iY?ocid=spartandhp

Excellent news, now if only we could persuade the nice half of the Labour party to do the same.
Both parties have been hijacked by extremists, leaving people confused who to vote for.


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## Grant85 (Oct 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well it's all over twitter from the Irish Times that

_'So am hearing that there has been very significant movement from British side on the customs issue in the Johnson-Varadkar talks. Not clear on detail and not clear what concessions expected in return. But if what I hear is correct, it changes the picture substantially '_

Or Laura Kuenssberg reporting that

_'There's some speculation tonight that No 10 did signal a big move on their position on customs, stepping towards the Irish position - but remember if they have, it gets harder to get any deal through Parliament because the DUP would be very unhappy '_

Irish backstop anybody?? 

Click to expand...

This is my take as well.

Johnson can probably get his own version of a deal through parliament but if consent is given to NI in the form of a double lock - i.e. 2 largest parties must agree then I don't see the DUP giving that kind of power to Sinn Feinn.

I've said all of this before but there are only 3 realistic options;
* GB exits and NI stays within SM / CU
* Entire UK stays within some kind of SM / CU
* Entire UK remains

No Deal is not an option and still creates issues on the island of Ireland.

As things stand, I don't see how Boris can agree something with the EU that Parliament will consent to. HOWEVER, there are a lot of Labour MPs in Leave voting areas that would now be keen to back something and would probably have backed May's deal if they thought it had a chance of getting through.

Boris obviously wants to roll the dice with an election as he is trapped with the current parliamentary arithmetic. BUT there is absolutely no guarantee an election solves anything. You could end up with similar numbers and MPs even more resolute that they have to support only the position they argued during the campaign.

Also as has been said before, an election potentially muddies the waters on Brexit. Lets say the result of the 4 largest parties;
Con 35%
Lab 30%
LD 20%
Brexit 10%

In normal times, this would probably lead to a workable Tory majority. But it's not a mandate for a harsh No Deal Brexit, which likely Boris would go for if he no longer needed the DUP. Plus people would not vote in a GENERAL election solely on one issue. The clue is in the name, General. People will prioritise local issues, domestic policy, leadership - as well as tactical voting that might inflate some parties votes.

A legally binding referendum would solve the issue as the waters would not be muddied by other issues.

Of course we had a referendum in 2016, but ultimately the electorate will now be far more informed about what Brexit means. In 2016 it was all things to all men i.e. people who wanted a British Empire style withdrawal and to park the Navy in the Channel from day 1. To those who just weren't all that enamoured with the EU or the way David Cameron had negotiated with them. And crucially this 'carte blanche Brexit' has led to a period of impasse with a majority for nothing.

So go back to the people with whatever deal Boris can get the EU to agree to and an option to remain. Legally binding so that MPs can't 'get in the way' of the result and we can have a far more informed debate than we had in 2016.


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## Grant85 (Oct 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...-group-report-says/ar-AAIB4iY?ocid=spartandhp

Excellent news, now if only we could persuade the nice half of the Labour party to do the same.
Both parties have been hijacked by extremists, leaving people confused who to vote for.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - one of the main benefits of the FPTP is that it forces parties to appeal to the wider public. Leading to majorities being won by moderates - Cameron and Blair the last two to do this. Now it might be a bit boring and lead to personality politics, but lets be honest - politics should be boring. Setting taxes and spending this money is as sensible way as possible should be something that is largely uncontentious and more of a managerial job. 

As soon as you dash to the left or right, you turn it into a 'who is the least worst' for a huge number of people. 

Which ultimately is going to be what happens in a Boris v Corbyn campaign.


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## jp5 (Oct 11, 2019)

So Dyson seems to be a fan of changing his mind on his electric cars a few years later when the information available has changed - hmm...


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## jp5 (Oct 11, 2019)

Looking forward to the good old British red tape to come 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181948079467053056


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## Grant85 (Oct 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Looking forward to the good old British red tape to come 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181948079467053056

Click to expand...

I get physically angry when I see 'Get Ready for Brexit' ads on TV. 

What a total waste of money. Millions, likely billions spent on this abomination trying to appease the right and the far right of British politics. 

This country is going to soon be running one of the largest fiscal deficits of any mature economy that has ever been run up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Looking forward to the good old British red tape to come 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181948079467053056

Click to expand...

I went to a Brexit talk given by the DTI on Wednesday. There is a lot of money being pumped into this. Govt can find / waste money by the 10's of millions, make that 100's of millions, when they want to. The amount poured down the drain in the name of training, that is pointless, is horrifying (it is a real bugbear of mine as I see it so often).

The talk was quite useful to be fair, clarifying the steps business will have to take in terms of exporting and importing if a no deal scenario happens. If the govt did not do this it would be accused of complacency and neglect.

What I would add however is that the red tape that is going to kick in is EU driven not UK. If we do leave without a deal it will be more cumbersome to ship to France than to the US, Bolivia, India, Australia etc. The EU do love red tape, forms, id numbers etc. If the red tape was UK alone it would consistent with all of these other countries, it certainly is not.


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## Foxholer (Oct 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why stop at peace on the middle east but that's nothing to do with it. My point which I keep repeating without someone making a reasonable case against is that if a trade agreement or the framework for it was agreed the current turmoil could have been negated.  The ONLY reason I can see why this wasn't done was to frustrate the negotiations. If you or anyone disagrees with this proposition then explain why it would be technically unfeasable and would not have been a much better way of creating a deal that would work.
		
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Check out how long it took to agree the Canada FTA and you will see why!
The 'History' section of the following document provides the info you need! 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_Agreement 

I believe the EU quashed (very early) any suggestion of negotiating any 'post-Brexit' relationship until after WA! I'm pretty certain that was announced, but 'conveniently forgotten' by those who declared an FTA etc would be 'the easiest deal ever' (or something similar). And while it's quite possible that there was a malicious intent in doing so, I believe the logistics of negotiating both Withdrawl and 'Future Relationship' simultaneously was never realistic!


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## Mudball (Oct 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I went to a Brexit talk given by the DTI on Wednesday. There is a lot of money being pumped into this. Govt can find / waste money by the 10's of millions, make that 100's of millions, when they want to. The amount poured down the drain in the name of training, that is pointless, is horrifying (it is a real bugbear of mine as I see it so often).

The talk was quite useful to be fair, clarifying the steps business will have to take in terms of exporting and importing if a no deal scenario happens. If the govt did not do this it would be accused of complacency and neglect.
*
What I would add however is that the red tape that is going to kick in is EU driven not UK. If we do leave without a deal it will be more cumbersome to ship to France than to the US, Bolivia, India, Australia etc. The EU do love red tape, forms, id numbers etc. If the red tape was UK alone it would consistent with all of these other countries, it certainly is not*.
		
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every country Has red tape incl those you mentioned above. The big diff is that pre Brexit we did not have to worry about it when dealing with EU/France, now we have brought it onto ourself. 

I/My company/My sector (IT) does a LOT of work in the EU. We are net exporters and donâ€™t have to worry about visas, qualification, social security payments when I send John to go and do some work in France, Germany, Spain. we close the deal on Friday, and John will be there on Monday morning.  Very different for (say) an Indian IT firm which will need to apply for visas. This is also the reason why Indian IT firms open offices and centers in the UK. They invest/recruit/bring in folks who live here and pay taxes here but can then go to Spain on Monday morning (assuming that they have a Brit passport).. the colour of a passport is irrelevant to anyone itâ€™s the power of it that matters - can you travel, work, holiday without having to worry about visas, social security/NI, medical emergencies/EHIC, qualification/accreditations.  In an age when India and China are on a warpath to make visa or visa on arrival deals with as many countries as possible, The UK may be the first country that is bent on imposing sanctions on itself. 
I will get off my soap box and let the will of the people take over 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182297394475671552


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			So Dyson seems to be a fan of changing his mind on his electric cars a few years later when the information available has changed - hmm...
		
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So whats wrong with that. He has been carrying out a research and development project which he hoped would produce a new generation of electric car. He is carrying on with the development of batteries but has decided car production is no longer viable.
I suspect your condemnation is based on his brexit views.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			every country Has red tape incl those you mentioned above. The big diff is that pre Brexit we did not have to worry about it when dealing with EU/France, now we have brought it onto ourself.

I/My company/My sector (IT) does a LOT of work in the EU. We are net exporters and donâ€™t have to worry about visas, qualification, social security payments when I send John to go and do some work in France, Germany, Spain. we close the deal on Friday, and John will be there on Monday morning.  Very different for (say) an Indian IT firm which will need to apply for visas. This is also the reason why Indian IT firms open offices and centers in the UK. They invest/recruit/bring in folks who live here and pay taxes here but can then go to Spain on Monday morning (assuming that they have a Brit passport).. the colour of a passport is irrelevant to anyone itâ€™s the power of it that matters - can you travel, work, holiday without having to worry about visas, social security/NI, medical emergencies/EHIC, qualification/accreditations.  In an age when India and China are on a warpath to make visa or visa on arrival deals with as many countries as possible, The UK may be the first country that is bent on imposing sanctions on itself.
I will get off my soap box and let the will of the people take over


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1182297394475671552

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I know that every country has red tape, we export worldwide. I can't comment about recruiting workers etc, only shipping goods. My point was that whilst there is red tape in all countries around the world the EU are adding additional layers to ones already imposed by other countries. We are all aware life will be different to how it is now, they are just adding extra barriers to other countries.


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## jp5 (Oct 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So whats wrong with that. He has been carrying out a research and development project which he hoped would produce a new generation of electric car. He is carrying on with the development of batteries but has decided car production is no longer viable.
I suspect your condemnation is based on his brexit views.
		
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I'm not condemning him - I wholly support continual review of future plans to ensure they are in the best interests. One could say the last three years have been a research and development project on Brexit, that we were hoping would produce sunnier uplands, but instead seem to be making everyone's lives more difficult.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I'm not condemning him - I wholly support continual review of future plans to ensure they are in the best interests. One could say the last three years have been a research and development project on Brexit, that we were hoping would produce sunnier uplands, but instead seem to be making everyone's lives more difficult.
		
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Whats any of this to do with Dysons electric car development?
Also, we may have been in sunnier uplands if remainers had accepted a democratic vote and had the balls to accept the vote didnt go their way.


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## jp5 (Oct 11, 2019)

Just exposing Dyson's hypocrisy 

"If remainers had accepted a democratic vote" has just become a vacuous platitude. Which remainers are you talking about, and how would that have affected the process thus far? 

I struggle to see any remainers, or anyone at all, that can single handledly resolve the impasse of the UK wanting to leave the customs union but not impose a border between NI/Ireland.

For what it's worth I think the majority of people accept the 2016 vote, it is the realities of the outcome that are causing the issues.


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## woody69 (Oct 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Also, we may have been in sunnier uplands if remainers had accepted a democratic vote and had the balls to accept the vote didnt go their way.
		
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The vote was "accepted". A50 was enacted and the process of withdrawing initiated. Problem is, it is significantly more complicated than just saying, "thanks" and walking away. We're not where we are because people didn't believe hard enough


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## Foxholer (Oct 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Just exposing Dyson's hypocrisy 
...
		
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Er...What hypocrisy?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 11, 2019)

woody69 said:



			The vote was "accepted". A50 was enacted and the process of withdrawing initiated. Problem is, it is significantly more complicated than just saying, "thanks" and walking away. We're not where we are because people didn't believe hard enough
		
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Though Johnson may still be able to say that the doomsters and gloomsters were indeed wrong...

We will see...


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2019)

woody69 said:



			The vote was "accepted". A50 was enacted and the process of withdrawing initiated. Problem is, it is significantly more complicated than just saying, "thanks" and walking away. We're not where we are because people didn't believe hard enough
		
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I keep explaining that the simple resolution is a free trade agreement, its not a complex concept, its not even difficult to initiate. I would suggest a compromise to the current situation would be an immediate transition period where everything is placed on hold while trade talks commence. The only objection to that can be from those who deny Brexit happening.

Also, we are where we are due to people believing they know better than those that voted to leave. How biggoted of them not to accept the outcome


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Just exposing Dyson's hypocrisy 

"If remainers had accepted a democratic vote" has just become a vacuous platitude. Which remainers are you talking about, and how would that have affected the process thus far? 

I struggle to see any remainers, or anyone at all, that can single handledly resolve the impasse of the UK wanting to leave the customs union but not impose a border between NI/Ireland.

For what it's worth I think the majority of people accept the 2016 vote, it is the realities of the outcome that are causing the issues.
		
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If you believe Dyson was a hypocrite then explain your reasoning for it as it sure beats me why you say it.


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## robinthehood (Oct 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I keep explaining that the simple resolution is a free trade agreement, its not a complex concept, its not even difficult to initiate. I would suggest a compromise to the current situation would be an immediate transition period where everything is placed on hold while trade talks commence. The only objection to that can be from those who deny Brexit happening.

Also, we are where we are due to people believing they know better than those that voted to leave. How biggoted of them not to accept the outcome
		
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We are here because a large part of the Tory party are hard line brexiteers and voted against the original deal. You make the poor assumption that everyone who voted remain is unable to accept the result.  This is also not true , just do it properly in a controlled manner that has as little negative impact as possible


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## Foxholer (Oct 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I keep explaining that the simple resolution is a free trade agreement, its not a complex concept, its not even difficult to initiate. I would suggest a compromise to the current situation would be an immediate transition period where everything is placed on hold while trade talks commence. The only objection to that can be from those who deny Brexit happening.
		
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So that'll be another 6 (or even10) years (going by how long the Canada FTA took) of planning/negotiation before that's settled! Meanwhil;e UK remains in the EU, where, surprise surprise, trade between EU and UK is free!!
I'm pretty sure THAT is a/the major reason (excuse?) why the EU rejected that approach and insisted on agreeing WA/Leave first; then consider Future Relationship(s)!


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## Foxholer (Oct 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			We are here because a large part of the Tory party are hard line brexiteers and voted against the original deal. You make the poor assumption that everyone who voted remain is unable to accept the result.  This is also not true , just do it properly in a controlled manner that has as little negative impact as possible
		
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Likewise, you make 'the poor assumption', or at least the implication, that the original deal was scuppered by 'hard line brexiteers'. In fact it was rejected by a significant majority in the Commons, 3 times, because it was a poor deal that, potentially/likely, did not achieve Leave at all!


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## robinthehood (Oct 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Likewise, you make 'the poor assumption', or at least the implication, that the original deal was scuppered by 'hard line brexiteers'. In fact it was rejected by a significant majority in the Commons, 3 times, because it was a poor deal that, potentially/likely, did not achieve Leave at all!
		
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The opposition are not obliged to vote in favour.  If may hadn't been so poorly advised and assume she'd sweep up the brexit vote in a GE, may be things would have been different.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So that'll be another 6 (or even10) years (going by how long the Canada FTA took) of planning/negotiation before that's settled! Meanwhil;e UK remains in the EU, where, surprise surprise, trade between EU and UK is free!!
I'm pretty sure THAT is a/the major reason (excuse?) why the EU rejected that approach and insisted on agreeing WA/Leave first; then consider Future Relationship(s)!
		
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As we are in the EU now its not such a task to unferstand how a free trade agreement should work. Surely the one with Canada is a good template. 6 to 10 years is not realistic, how long did the Japan one take?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The opposition are not obliged to vote in favour.  If may hadn't been so poorly advised and assume she'd sweep up the brexit vote in a GE, may be things would have been different.
		
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They are not obliged to vote against either.


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## robinthehood (Oct 11, 2019)

The stock market is liking the idea that a deal is in the offing .
As an aside over the last 3 years my wife's company has written off 1.8million in stock due to the prolonged brexit negotiations and failed deadlines.
Oof.


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## robinthehood (Oct 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			They are not obliged to vote against either.
		
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Thank goodness for Gina Miller ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰


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## Foxholer (Oct 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Thank goodness for Gina Miller ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰
		
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Indeed! Otherwise May would likely have signed it off using 'Royal prerogative' and we'd be 'out' but effectively still 'in'!!


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## woody69 (Oct 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed! Otherwise May would likely have signed it off using 'Royal prerogative' and we'd be 'out' but effectively still 'in'!!
		
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But we would then be in the transition period and able to negotiate the FTA that Socket suggests when he stated: "_I would suggest a compromise to the current situation would be an immediate transition period where everything is placed on hold while trade talks commence_"


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## Foxholer (Oct 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			As we are in the EU now its not such a task to unferstand how a free trade agreement should work. Surely the one with Canada is a good template. 6 to 10 years is not realistic, how long did the Japan one take?
		
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Er...(5-)6 years! Started in 2013; in force in Feb 2019.


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## Foxholer (Oct 11, 2019)

woody69 said:



			But we would then be in the transition period and able to negotiate the FTA that Socket suggests when he stated: "_I would suggest a compromise to the current situation would be an immediate transition period where everything is placed on hold while trade talks commence_"
		
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And the worst of both worlds - tied to and 'under control' of EU with none of the benefits of membership, but hoping to negotiate re-aquisition one of the benefits! A completely daft - and impossible - proposition!

What I believe SR was proposing was negotiation of the FTA BEFORE negotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement. A nice but pie-in-the-sky idea already rejected by the EU!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And the worst of both worlds - tied to and 'under control' of EU with none of the benefits of membership, but hoping to negotiate re-aquisition one of the benefits! A completely daft - and impossible - proposition!

What I believe SR was proposing was negotiation of the FTA BEFORE negotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement. A nice but pie-in-the-sky idea already rejected by the EU!
		
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Because the EU rejected it doesnt mean its pie-in-the-sky, the EU, rather like Labour reject everything other than surrender.  If it creates a solution to Ireland then its in everyone's interest.

I still disagree with your timeframes on a FTA,  there are plenty of templates and we are working from the inside to out which must be easier


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The stock market is liking the idea that a deal is in the offing .
As an aside over the last 3 years my wife's company has written off 1.8million in stock due to the prolonged brexit negotiations and failed deadlines.
Oof.
		
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Always a poor decision to hold more in stock than you need to.   What stock do they hold that has to be written off due to Brexit talks?


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## robinthehood (Oct 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Always a poor decision to hold more in stock than you need to.   What stock do they hold that has to be written off due to Brexit talks?
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ it's a number of issues, not especially just over stock.


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## Old Skier (Oct 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The opposition are not obliged to vote in favour.  If may hadn't been so poorly advised and assume she'd sweep up the brexit vote in a GE, may be things would have been different.
		
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They aren't obliged to vote in favour but if they vote against for purely political aims and not because of any problem with the deal then that won't site well with the public.


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## Foxholer (Oct 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Because the EU rejected it doesnt mean its pie-in-the-sky, the EU, rather like Labour reject everything other than surrender.  If it creates a solution to Ireland then its in everyone's interest.

I still disagree with your timeframes on a FTA,  there are plenty of templates and we are working from the inside to out which must be easier
		
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Definition from Dictionary.com.....'A preposterously optimistic goal' ; so seems pretty appropriate to me!

On the FTA front, I simply quoted the ACTUAL real durations between agreement to proceed and implimentation - of FTAs the EU was happy/keen on! Who knows how long one where the implementation would result in a massively contributing member leaving! Again, 'Pie-in-the-sky' seems totally appropriate!

And an FTA will not (fully) be 'a solution to Ireland', nor will a Customs Union! The only 'full' solution is a (hybrid) Single Market - with Freedom of Movement removed!

So more 'Pie-in-the-Sky' seems highly appropriate!

Basically....Nice idea; totally unrealistic! Think again!


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## robinthehood (Oct 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			They aren't obliged to vote in favour but if they vote against for purely political aims and not because of any problem with the deal then that won't site well with the public.
		
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You mean like  a large chunk of the Tory party


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 11, 2019)

If NI are basically allowed to stay in the EU and Scotland are not, expect a few fireworks from north of the border.

Mind you it might be worth the entrance fee to see the DUP voting with the SNP.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ it's a number of issues, not especially just over stock.
		
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So you dont want to answer. Why make a statement that they've written off Â£1.8 million  in stock then say its not about stock. ðŸ™„ðŸ¤¯


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## robinthehood (Oct 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So you dont want to answer. Why make a statement that they've written off Â£1.8 million  in stock then say its not about stock. ðŸ™„ðŸ¤¯
		
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It's not because of overstocking. 
I'd like to say I payed full attention...
It was to do with product changes and SKUs or something as lots has to change if it's no deal. As the deadline passed but nothing happened the stuff made in preparation was not usable, so it gets scrapped


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 11, 2019)

Old Skier said:



*They aren't obliged to vote in favour but if they vote against for purely political aims and not because of any problem with the deal then that won't site well with the public*.
		
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To be honest mate, I think that ship sailed a long long time ago on both sides.


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## Grant85 (Oct 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If NI are basically allowed to stay in the EU and Scotland are not, expect a few fireworks from north of the border.

Mind you it might be worth the entrance fee to see the DUP voting with the SNP.

Click to expand...

DUP seem to be strangely positive about the past week or so. Whether they are softening their stance or they are being overly optimistic about what Johnson will agree... I don't know.

Johnson's deal would see NI retain defacto EU membership that could be revoked by DUP giving consent. The EU are simply not going to allow this. Chat yesterday about concession on the British side.
Assumption being that this will change to DUP and Sinn Fein or Stormont AND Dublin must give consent. This is the bit that will not get through parliament.

Even if Boris got every Tory and a few Labour leavers, without the DUP he'd likely be short of a majority given the number of remainers in his own party he has completely alienated - especially the ones like Clarke, Greening, Soames, Grieve, Rudd etc. who won't stand again as Conservatives.

Maybe he can find a way to get the DUP to abstain, but when it comes to voting, they aren't exactly the abstaining types.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 12, 2019)

I am starting to believe Cumming's very cunning plan is to lay the blame for failing to 'do or die' at the feet of the DUP.


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## oxymoron (Oct 15, 2019)

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/eu-negotiator-michel-barnier-deadline-brexit-deal-tonight-094344003.html 

Nice move , no doubt done in the true spirit of cooperation .
In a negotiation how on earth can one side just turn around and say , right we need your proposal by midnight or not at all ,  what a shower on both sides of the table .
Or was the UKs side getting too close to a workable solution and the EU(Barnier ?) decided that they may look bad in the long run ? After all we know they dont want
us to leave, sorry i mean our wallets to leave .


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2019)

oxymoron said:



https://uk.yahoo.com/news/eu-negotiator-michel-barnier-deadline-brexit-deal-tonight-094344003.html

Nice move , no doubt done in the true spirit of cooperation .
*In a negotiation how on earth can one side just turn around and say , right we need your proposal by midnight or not at all *,  what a shower on both sides of the table .
Or was the UKs side getting too close to a workable solution and the EU(Barnier ?) decided that they may look bad in the long run ? After all we know they dont want
us to leave, sorry i mean our wallets to leave .
		
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Erm, to set time limits, to gain the upper hand, to take advantage of the dithering, delusion and weak position of the other side?? Take your pick.


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## drdel (Oct 15, 2019)

oxymoron said:



https://uk.yahoo.com/news/eu-negotiator-michel-barnier-deadline-brexit-deal-tonight-094344003.html

Nice move , no doubt done in the true spirit of cooperation .
In a negotiation how on earth can one side just turn around and say , right we need your proposal by midnight or not at all ,  what a shower on both sides of the table .
Or was the UKs side getting too close to a workable solution and the EU(Barnier ?) decided that they may look bad in the long run ? After all we know they dont want
us to leave, sorry i mean our wallets to leave .
		
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Barnier has nowt to loose. He's not answerable to an electorate just wants to protect his 'tough negotiator' reputation with the insiders. The EU's negotiating strategy has been the same over the decades with any serious issue; stonewall, leak and lie.


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## oxymoron (Oct 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Erm, to set time limits, to gain the upper hand, to take advantage of the dithering, delusion and weak position of the other side?? Take your pick.
		
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Where i come from we call it bullying , no one will come out of this smelling of roses , i keep reading we are offering compromises only to be told no, so what do you know , maybe it is best to just walk away and tell this 
shower to stick it ,oh and by the way we will keep out  Â£39 billion or however much it is .I bet they will want to talk then .


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2019)

oxymoron said:



*Where i come from we call it bullying* , no one will come out of this smelling of roses , i keep reading we are offering compromises only to be told no*,* so what do you know , maybe it is best to just walk away and tell this
shower to stick it ,oh and by the way we will keep out  Â£39 billion or however much it is .I bet they will want to talk then .
		
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Well if setting deadlines that need to be met to hit a date that our PM says we have to leave by or we'll all be dead in a ditch, or something like that, is bullying then so be it.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			Barnier has nowt to loose. He's not answerable to an electorate just wants to protect his 'tough negotiator' reputation with the insiders. *The EU's negotiating strategy has been the same over the decades with any serious issue; stonewall, leak and lie*.
		
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At least they have a strategy.   And if their strategy is so transparent then I'm sure anyone negotiating with them would know this, and therefore execute a foolproof approach to getting the upper hand in any negotiations with them.


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## Hobbit (Oct 15, 2019)

After 3 years the EU can't meet another deadline the UK have set? Shocked... not. With a net contribution of Â£1bn a month does anyone honestly think the EU can cope with losing that amount of money?  If you look at the detail of the last deal, which showed reducing structured payments through to Dec 2028, allowing the EU to restructure its budgeting I wonder why the EU is so keen to keep its unruly neighbour?

Oh c'mon! Its about one thing and one thing only. Keeping the EU project afloat.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well if setting deadlines that need to be met to hit a date that our PM says we have to leave by or we'll all be dead in a ditch, or something like that, is bullying then so be it.
		
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He actually said 'he' would rather be dead in a ditch but I guess you already know that.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			At least they have a strategy.   And if their strategy is so transparent then I'm sure anyone negotiating with them would know this, and therefore execute a foolproof approach to getting the upper hand in any negotiations with them.
		
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Correct but if you've been reduced to a 'One armed paper hanger' by your own parliament what choices are open to you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2019)

As it seems that we might be heading towards a May Mk2 deal I am wondering what our previous PM is thinking of all of this.  Indeed I am hearing some whisperings that BJs May Mk2 might actually be worse that May Mk1.  What a too-doo. What a stramash.  But I am hearing that things might be sorted (if not finalised) by end of today.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Correct but if you've been reduced to a 'One armed paper hanger' by your own parliament what choices are open to you.
		
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Is that the 'One armed paper hanger' who has been painted into a corner by the ERG with May's Lancaster House Red Lines as their template?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As it seems that we might be heading towards a May Mk2 deal I am wondering what our previous PM is thinking of all of this.  Indeed *I am hearing so me whisperings* that BJs May Mk2 might actually be worse that May Mk1.  What a too-doo. What a stramash.  *But I am hearing that *things might be sorted (if not finalised) by end of today.
		
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Barber or Mate down the Pub.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is that the 'One armed paper hanger' who has been painted into a corner by the ERG with May's Lancaster House Red Lines as their template?
		
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No!   Its by a pair of 'Kipper Heads' who cant decide what side they are on but in reality its their own.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 15, 2019)

oxymoron said:



			Where i come from we call it bullying , no one will come out of this smelling of roses , i keep reading we are offering compromises only to be told no, so what do you know , maybe it is best to just walk away and tell this
shower to stick it ,oh and by the way we will keep out  Â£39 billion or however much it is .I bet they will want to talk then .
		
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Hilary Benn wonâ€™t let us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Barber or Mate down the Pub.
		
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Eddie Mair actually, and now being reported on LBC news bulletin.  Closing in on a draft agreement.  Wonder what it is.  No doubt it will square the circle that is 'we know what we voted for' and 'nobody knows what will happen once we have left'.  But if it is just May Mk2, a deal that was roundly condemned as BRINO - what will Johnson's agreement be? Just Another BRINO? And somehow this one will be acceptable.  Curious.

But if a deal it is and a deal is signed-off - then silver lining is that it is one step along the way of keeping Farage and his Crew out of Westminster.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No!   Its by a pair of 'Kipper Heads' who cant decide what side they are on but in reality its their own.
		
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who are they then?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Eddie Mair actually, and now being reported on LBC news bulletin.  Closing in on a draft agreement.  Wonder what it is.  No doubt it will square the circle that is 'we know what we voted for' and 'nobody knows what will happen once we have left'.  But if it is just May Mk2, a deal that was roundly condemned as BRINO - what will Johnson's agreement be? Just Another BRINO? And somehow this one will be acceptable.  Curious.

But if a deal it is and a deal is signed-off - then silver lining is that it is one step along the way of keeping Farage and his Crew out of Westminster.
		
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Lets wait and see what the outcome of the negotiations bring before throwing cold water and sarcasm at it.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			who are they then?
		
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Have a guess, go on you may even get it right.


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## Hobbit (Oct 16, 2019)

A piece from the Beeb's website of the various polls. Some widely differing responses BUT what did shock me was the number who voted Remain 2016 that have switched to Leave. Various people have shouted from the roof tops that some Leavers have changed their mind and want to Remain but there's hardly been a whisper about the number of Remainers that have switched. Very surprisingly there's more 2016 Remainers switched than 2016 Leavers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50043549


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## jp5 (Oct 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Very surprisingly there's more 2016 Remainers switched than 2016 Leavers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50043549

Click to expand...

Which stat are you drawing that from?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A piece from the Beeb's website of the various polls. Some widely differing responses BUT what did shock me was the number who voted Remain 2016 that have switched to Leave. Various people have shouted from the roof tops that some Leavers have changed their mind and want to Remain but there's hardly been a whisper about the number of Remainers that have switched. Very surprisingly there's more 2016 Remainers switched than 2016 Leavers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50043549

Click to expand...

...and in some circumstances you could include me in that group. 

Because if the deal is not catastrophic then I see merit in accepting that it is best we leave on the basis of that deal - not because I think leaving the EU is a good idea - but because there is a risk that without UK leaving the anger and division in society will not heal very quickly at all.  And leaving with a deal that is acceptable to the DUP and the majority of the ERG will go a good way to keeping Farage and the BP out of Westminster.

So when we know the outcome of the discussions with the EU and in the event of a Deal being agreed - if you were to ask me if I wanted the UK to leave the EU then my answer could well be Yes.


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## Foxholer (Oct 16, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A piece from the Beeb's website of the various polls. Some widely differing responses BUT what did shock me was the number who voted Remain 2016 that have switched to Leave. Various people have shouted from the roof tops that some Leavers have changed their mind and want to Remain but there's hardly been a whisper about the number of Remainers that have switched. Very surprisingly there's more 2016 Remainers switched than 2016 Leavers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50043549

Click to expand...

I'm one who has switched from Remain to Leave - on the basis that I accept the result, however achieved!


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## spongebob59 (Oct 16, 2019)




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## Hacker Khan (Oct 16, 2019)

Seems that it is all coming down to how much the DUP will charge the UK taxpayer for their votes and whether politically Boris thinks that is a price worth paying. To get a deal that seems worse with regards to customs and borders than the one he resigned over when TMay tried it.


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## jp5 (Oct 16, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184364303878643712


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2019)

Looks like do or die and dead in a ditch has resulted in LBJ's turn to kick the can.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seems that it is all coming down to how much the DUP will charge the UK taxpayer for their votes and whether politically Boris thinks that is a price worth paying. To get a deal that seems worse with regards to customs and borders than the one he resigned over when TMay tried it.
		
Click to expand...

Do you have some insider info on what the deal may contain.


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## Dando (Oct 16, 2019)

so, MP's furious at Parliament being closed are now complaining that they may have to sit on Saturday


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## Dando (Oct 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have some insider info on what the deal may contain.
		
Click to expand...

SILH's barber told him


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## spongebob59 (Oct 16, 2019)

So they go through the courts because they weren't allowed to sit, now given a chance.........
Will someone shut this woman (sourface) up ! 


@bbclaurak
Â·
3m

Just as some in EU mull the idea of asking PM to get MPs to vote for a theoretical deal before granting him one, effort among MPs, led by Anna Soubry, not to allow Parliament to sit on Saturday that unless a firm deal has been granted


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## spongebob59 (Oct 16, 2019)

_HuffPoâ€™s_ Paul Waugh is reporting that Labour and their rebel alliance are planning to vote against Parliament sitting and having its say on Borisâ€™s new deal if he brings one back this Saturday, as they fear Boris will use the Houseâ€™s endorsement of a deal to bypass the Benn Act. _Now all of a sudden Remainers want to deny Parliament having its say â€“ theyâ€™ve never been subtle about showing their true motivesâ€¦_
Itâ€™s still likely Parliamentâ€™s unusual Saturday sitting will go ahead, however this jitter clearly shows the fear Remainers now have that Boris is on the verge of clinching a deal and securing Brexit. _Might be worth giving Lady Hale a callâ€¦_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2019)

Dando said:



			SILH's barber told him
		
Click to expand...

You can give that a break - it's no longer funny - as my French barber has returned to France - very disappointed and pretty sickened by England and Brexit.  And so Brexit job done for that one individual.


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## woody69 (Oct 16, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184205853597020160


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## spongebob59 (Oct 16, 2019)

Agreed, 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184417539474055168


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2019)

LATEST according to Fosh.....Tories agree to pay the DUP Â£350m a week to support Brexit move


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			LATEST according to Fosh.....Tories agree to pay the DUP Â£350m a week to support Brexit move

Click to expand...

Do we get a rebate?


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## spongebob59 (Oct 16, 2019)

So the snakes on the train want any deal to be subject to another referendum


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## harpo_72 (Oct 16, 2019)

If the DUP get any more money thatâ€™s a disgrace .. and should be voted on ðŸ¤£


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## drdel (Oct 16, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			So the snakes on the train want any deal to be subject to another referendum 

Click to expand...

This is well beyond a farce. If there were any standards left in the UK or EU neither side would agree to 'side' or unofficial meetings - but there ain't.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 16, 2019)

Hammond was extremely oily on the Neil shiw. whenever I see him I think of the snake in jungle book.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 16, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184545550798114816


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## Dando (Oct 16, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184545550798114816

Click to expand...

Best comment about this was that joylonâ€™s a pound shop judge rinder


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## Hobbit (Oct 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can give that a break - it's no longer funny - as my French barber has returned to France - very disappointed and pretty sickened by England and Brexit.  And so Brexit job done for that one individual.
		
Click to expand...

Pretty sickened by England... why?

Are you pretty sickened by the 36% of Scots who voted Leave too, or is it only the English youâ€™re sickened by? Freudian slip or the real chip on the shoulder Scot shining through?


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can give that a break - it's no longer funny - as my French barber has returned to France - very disappointed and pretty sickened by England and Brexit.  *And so Brexit job done* for that one individual.
		
Click to expand...

And so you continue your snide insinuations that all Brexit voters are knuckle dragging racists whose sole motive is the removal of every foreigner from our shores; why don't you do us all a favour and give it a break?  Your attitude is beneath contempt.


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## chrisd (Oct 16, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			And so you continue your snide insinuations that all Brexit voters are knuckle dragging racists whose sole motive is the removal of every foreigner from our shores; why don't you do us all a favour and give it a break?  Your attitude is beneath contempt.
		
Click to expand...

It's a tad lower than that BIM.

 I've started to really enjoy seeing SILH getting ever more upset as, hopefully, Brexit gets ever nearer


----------



## woody69 (Oct 16, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184467688929804291


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## Mudball (Oct 16, 2019)

woody69 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184467688929804291

Click to expand...

why is this surprising??

another one doing the rounds... calling Victory for the Brexiteers .. 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=528199814661688


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## harpo_72 (Oct 16, 2019)

Mudball said:



			why is this surprising??

another one doing the rounds... calling Victory for the Brexiteers ..




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=528199814661688



Click to expand...

Oh the irony of it all.


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## Beezerk (Oct 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A piece from the Beeb's website of the various polls. Some widely differing responses BUT what did shock me was the number who voted Remain 2016 that have switched to Leave. Various people have shouted from the roof tops that some Leavers have changed their mind and want to Remain but there's hardly been a whisper about the number of Remainers that have switched. Very surprisingly there's more 2016 Remainers switched than 2016 Leavers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50043549

Click to expand...

Following on from this...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/biggest-s...in-still-wants-to-leave-the-eu-183632737.html

And all we've been hearing for the past three years is people have changed their minds since the first referendum . In reality only the losing side having been shouting from the rooftops about this, the winners have in the main been sitting quietly waiting for the result to be enacted.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Following on from this...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/biggest-s...in-still-wants-to-leave-the-eu-183632737.html

And all we've been hearing for the past three years is people have changed their minds since the first referendum . In reality only the losing side having been shouting from the rooftops about this, the winners have in the main been sitting quietly waiting for the result to be enacted.
		
Click to expand...

Careful saying 'losing side'  apparently they don't like it.


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## Beezerk (Oct 17, 2019)

about this


SocketRocket said:



			Careful saying 'losing side'  apparently they don't like it.
		
Click to expand...

Those who came second any better?


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## ger147 (Oct 17, 2019)

So the DUP are a No at the moment...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50077760


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 17, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			about this


Those who came second any better? 

Click to expand...

They can still have a participation medalðŸ‘. That should smooth things over ðŸ˜


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 17, 2019)

Aren't we just where were a few months ago with TMay?  Just in this case the PM is the mate of the ERG so they will back the deal for no other reason than that, and the DUP are still playing hardball. Plus ca change as we will probably not be allowed to say soon...


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 17, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Following on from this...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/biggest-s...in-still-wants-to-leave-the-eu-183632737.html

And all we've been hearing for the past three years is people have changed their minds since the first referendum . In reality only the losing side having been shouting from the rooftops about this, the winners have in the main been sitting quietly waiting for the result to be enacted.
		
Click to expand...

Everyone pollster has been stating that people would mostly vote the same. The only potential changes would really be essentially down to people who have died since who statistically would have been more likely to vote leave, and people who are now eligible to vote who weren't then who statistically are more likely to vote remain (and that's not to say every old person voted to leave/young person voted to remain, just statistically there was a correlation due to age.  Also it may well be that the people who are now eligible to vote still can't be arsed to do it) 

Yes there will be some swapping of views as inevitably there would have been some people who were pretty undecided at the time of the referendum, and subsequent events/lack of events/ would have made a people change sides.  But taking individual examples of someones cousin now wanting to remain as we've cocked the negotiations up or someone who voted remain now wanting to leave as it is clear the EU are bullies building their own army is so statistically insignificant it is laughable.


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## Dando (Oct 17, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They can still have a participation medalðŸ‘. That should smooth things over ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s the taking part that counts ðŸ˜‚


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Pretty sickened by England... why?

Are you pretty sickened by the 36% of Scots who voted Leave too, or is it only the English youâ€™re sickened by? Freudian slip or the real chip on the shoulder Scot shining through?
		
Click to expand...

You'd really have to ask his French barber who was the one, I believe, was 'pretty sickened by England...'!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*Pretty sickened by England*... why?

Are you pretty sickened by the 36% of Scots who voted Leave too, or is it only the English youâ€™re sickened by? Freudian slip or the real chip on the shoulder Scot shining through?
		
Click to expand...

My French ex-barber was - not me.


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## Dando (Oct 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My French ex-barber was - not me.
		
Click to expand...

â€œEx barberâ€ has he stopped cutting hair?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			And so you continue your snide insinuations that all Brexit voters are knuckle dragging racists whose sole motive is the removal of every foreigner from our shores; why don't you do us all a favour and give it a break?  Your attitude is beneath contempt.
		
Click to expand...

I am telling you of the thoughts of a French citizen working in the UK. As far as he was concerned Brexit had done it's job and he was off.   And it is I believe a simple and unfortunate fact that - for some one - a reduction in EU27 nationals in the UK is a priority of Brexit.  It is unfortunate that some perpetuate the myth that all Remain voters think all Leave voters are racists - we don't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			It's a tad lower than that BIM.

I've started to really enjoy seeing SILH getting ever more upset as, hopefully, Brexit gets ever nearer
		
Click to expand...

Why do I think Brexit is a bad idea?  Because I believe that it will harm those least able to cope; the poorer and the disadvantaged.  I find it hard to think there is anything funny about having such a concern.

And as I have mentioned - in many ways I rather hoped that today would see things done and a deal agreed upon that parliament would be able to accept.  And when I heard that the DUP are currently likely to block the deal I actually found myself rather dismayed.  

Then I heard a couple of hardliner Leavers call it BRINO - a surrender deal - unacceptable.  And so I wonder why on earth I'd support a Deal that would not be acceptable to many Leave voters and so the anger and division and Farage whining would continue,  It's nuts and depressing.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2019)

If Borisâ€™ deal is good, why is he giving two figs about the DUP ? smacks of desperation and a deal that is not meeting the promises he made .. I canâ€™t believe he has lied .. again.

Just for a laugh letâ€™s quote Greta .. â€œyou have stolen all my dreamsâ€ bit melodramatic I know but quite applicable! 


What a bunch of used car salesmen.. that pretty much sums up the ERG.
The DUP are taking the mick out of the Tory party and ransoming this country , how much could we have ploughed into the NHS instead trying to make Arlene look shaggable??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

DUP have caved in and agreed to support the Deal.  Boris celebrating.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

Ah - though maybe not - is #10 trying to bounce the DUP into acceptance as word from DUP source is that position has not changed.  Even although Johnson and Juncker are both tweeting that DUP *are* on board.  What a shambles.


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## Mudball (Oct 17, 2019)

we are out!! Welcome to the new world.. well done BoJo


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2019)

Think it still goes to the commons for a vote though ... and we will see how different it was from May's ..


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			we are out!! Welcome to the new world.. well done BoJo
		
Click to expand...

Don't forget that we've been here before with the previous deal. Still got to be voted through a remain HoC. Many remainers will now be forced to show their true colours and admit that rather than stop a no deal Brexit they actually want to stop Brexit.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			we are out!! Welcome to the new world.. well done BoJo
		
Click to expand...

No we're not yet.  Bojo has announced they have a deal (which let's not forget Tmay had also done months ago) that the DUP have not yet signed up to.  There will be more whipping on Saturday than a S&M party.


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## jp5 (Oct 17, 2019)

Excellent, hope Labour don't get in the way of this and we can all move on.


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## patricks148 (Oct 17, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Excellent, hope Labour don't get in the way of this and we can all move on.
		
Click to expand...

What about the Libs??? or the DUP?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2019)

Didnâ€™t the EU also agree a deal with May ? So whatâ€™s actually changed from the UK point of view ? It still needs to go through HoC and that appears not to seem likely to happen ?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 17, 2019)

I'm going to a tradeshow in Germany in 3 weeks time. If this deal does not go through I am expecting a lot of meetings where customers tell me they will be expecting me to cover the tariff costs or will be looking to buy from the mainland only. It will be grim. I have had preliminary email along these lines already. If it does go through it will be an entirely different experience, possibly involving a good deal of cheering and hugging (that may just be me )

Don't balls it up now parliament


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 17, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Excellent, hope Labour don't get in the way of this and we can all move on.
		
Click to expand...

They will get in the way.  It's going to be close on Saturday, could go either way if the DUP are not on board by then.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			They will get in the way.  It's going to be close on Saturday, could go either way if the DUP are not on board by then.
		
Click to expand...

What about the 20 rejects as well ...? Or am I thinking they will vote to save their careers and drop the ideals


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			What about the 20 rejects as well ...? Or am I thinking they will vote to save their careers and drop the ideals
		
Click to expand...

Suspect the DUP will swing it.  If they are on board then the more hardliners in ERG will come on board and the 20 rejects will more than likely also come on board, bit if a snowball effect.  If the DUP do not come on board this may well spook some of the ERGers and lead to a snowball of resistance across the house. You also have a few wildcards in labour who may go either way despite being whipped to an inch of their life to reject it. But a lot may change before Saturday.  If I am a betting man I suspect it will squeek through.  

So after 3 years, 3PMs and a general race to the bottom when it comes to consensual politics we will have agreed the divorce agreement.  Best of luck in getting what really matters within a decade, a trade deal.


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## jp5 (Oct 17, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			What about the Libs??? or the DUP?
		
Click to expand...

I don't expect any of the hardliners (and that's not a critical term) to support any deal, so expect it is up to a couple dozen of Labour sensibles to get it over the line.

Think the majority of the country would be happy with a moderate deal so we can move on. Who knows, we may revisit it in future, but have to start with something.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 17, 2019)

Hear labour are whipping to bring a second referendum forward


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			They will get in the way.  It's going to be close on Saturday, could go either way if the DUP are not on board by then.
		
Click to expand...

Without DUP support I think they'll lose comfortably. Labour MPs in leave areas are far more likely to back the deal if the DUP are ok with it.


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## Cherry13 (Oct 17, 2019)

Expect a few amendments, might we see one proposing a second (confirmation) referendum that now passes, with DUP, labour and the 21 behind it. 

I think Boris will regardless now be ready to call an election, heâ€™s in a stronger position to say heâ€™s the only one who can deliver Brexit


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2019)

Best to see what the deal amounts to .. who ever wins the election will inherit it and will pay the price for not delivering all the promised great things. 
Boris will be content to inherit his deal and throw caution to the wind, JC and the labour party will not as they have already been pretty well damaged by the Tory press.
I think the Labour party will vote against it if there isn't elements that they can make positive spin with.

The Lib Dems are just against leaving and they will present a formidable force if the election is fought on this deal or remain. 
Perhaps a referendum isn't such a bad idea for all parties as it could dictate their election policies going forward.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2019)

Is this true ?

It would also appear that what has been agreed is illegal. Its in contradiction of Article 55 of the Taxation (Cross Border trade) Act of 2018 which makes it unlawful for the Government to enter arrangements under which NI forms part of a different customs territory to Great Britain.
?


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## GB72 (Oct 17, 2019)

Can only see this deal passing with an amendment for a second referendum. Whole thing is frustrating me now. At least the lib dems are being upfront in that they want no Brexit. DUP are just being totally self serving and, as for labour. Corbyn is simply using this as a power grab. If the deal is defeated he can say that the conservatives have failed in their promise. If there is a referendum then he has supported the people having a say. If there is no Brexit he saved the UK from it. All this with no clear comment on what he stands for. He goes on about protecting workers, environment etc but surely after Brexit that is what parliament is there to do. The whole point is to set our own standards not follow Europe.

Anyway, second referendum coming


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 17, 2019)

GB72 said:



			Can only see this deal passing with an amendment for a second referendum. Whole thing is frustrating me now. At least the lib dems are being upfront in that they want no Brexit. DUP are just being totally self serving and, as for labour. Corbyn is simply using this as a power grab. If the deal is defeated he can say that the conservatives have failed in their promise. If there is a referendum then he has supported the people having a say. If there is no Brexit he saved the UK from it. All this with no clear comment on what he stands for. *He goes on about protecting workers, environment etc but surely after Brexit that is what parliament is there to do. The whole point is to set our own standards not follow Europe.*

Anyway, second referendum coming
		
Click to expand...

He may argue that the more free market capitalists that seem to be very prominent in the Brexit campaign may well have a vested interest in reducing workers rights, where being in the EU means that they will be more protected. I could not possibly comment. 

But as an aside I work for a global company that has offices in the EU, UK and the US.  And when we need to make redundancies it is usually the US that bears the brunt as you can literally get rid of people that day and out they walk with their cardboard box.  In many EU countries it is very difficult to make people redundant and in general the UK is somewhere in the middle. And I certainly know which system I prefer.  Companies need the flexibility to get rid of people but walking into work and then walking out an hour later having been made redundant with a mortgage to pay and family to support is brutal. And I hope we do not go down that path so a few ultra capitalists and hedge funds can make a few more millions of pounds.


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## jp5 (Oct 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is this true ?

It would also appear that what has been agreed is illegal. Its in contradiction of Article 55 of the Taxation (Cross Border trade) Act of 2018 which makes it unlawful for the Government to enter arrangements under which NI forms part of a different customs territory to Great Britain.
?
		
Click to expand...

If there is a majority for the deal, presumably there is also a majority to repeal that Act? (if the act even prevents the deal, I wouldn't know as I have no clue what it's about)


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 17, 2019)

Seems Farage is not impressed with the proposed deal and wants to reject it.  He wants an extension and then a GE. Does that mean I now have to like the deal?  I'm confused....


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## Mudball (Oct 17, 2019)

Stop you doubters...  This will go thru.   BoJo says it is great, it must be great.    I am in a trade thingi in Spain a week after that.. I will be beautiful.


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## GB72 (Oct 17, 2019)

Based on the assumption that a general election will follow the conclusion of Brexit, a referendum is not a bad thing. At least any party taking office will be partially absolved of being beaten with every issues that arises from Brexit and gets something of a clean start


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## patricks148 (Oct 17, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seems Farage is not impressed with the proposed deal and wants to reject it.  He wants an extension and then a GE. Does that mean I now have to like the deal?  I'm confused....

Click to expand...

shame he's not an MP then


----------



## GB72 (Oct 17, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			He may argue that the more free market capitalists that seem to be very prominent in the Brexit campaign may well have a vested interest in reducing workers rights, where being in the EU means that they will be more protected. I could not possibly comment.

But as an aside I work for a global company that has offices in the EU, UK and the US.  And when we need to make redundancies it is usually the US that bears the brunt as you can literally get rid of people that day and out they walk with their cardboard box.  In many EU countries it is very difficult to make people redundant and in general the UK is somewhere in the middle. And I certainly know which system I prefer.  Companies need the flexibility to get rid of people but walking into work and then walking out an hour later having been made redundant with a mortgage to pay and family to support is brutal. And I hope we do not go down that path so a few ultra capitalists and hedge funds can make a few more millions of pounds.
		
Click to expand...

Thing is, this plays both ways. Outside of the EU, if labour get in power they are free to introduce the most stringent set of work rights going should they so wish, far beyond any EU obligations. It just seems counter intuitive to argue that the deal that removes us from the EU is not acceptable because it does not tie us to EU worker regulations.


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## Mudball (Oct 17, 2019)

.. Now that we have achieved the impossible .... Get a Deal.
.. Now for the easy bit - get the MPs to vote on a deal that they have not seen yet (and give DUP loads of money/promises - which can be broken later).   We should be done soon

Can i have my truffled slightly well done but leave the steak medium...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			.. Now that we have achieved the impossible .... Get a Deal.
.. Now for the easy bit - get the MPs to vote on a deal that they have not seen yet (and give DUP loads of money/promises - which can be broken later).   We should be done soon

Can i have my truffled slightly well done but leave the steak medium...
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ are you a wind up ?

Achieve the â€œimpossibleâ€ - did May not also agree a deal with the EU ?

And you think getting the MPâ€™s to agree is the easy bit ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			shame he's not an MP then

Click to expand...

...and he is keeping awfully quiet at the moment.

Update - '"It's just not Brexit...It binds us in to so many other commitments and it should be rejected"

And as many will listen to him and his acolytes - the HoC passing of this agreement would, I fear, not put us very far down the road of national reconciliation.


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## patricks148 (Oct 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and he is keeping awfully quiet at the moment.

Update - '"It's just not Brexit...It binds us in to so many other commitments and it should be rejected"
		
Click to expand...

Probably getting ready for the biggest updet in Uk politics ... and landslide victory.....  just like the last 3 GE


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Probably getting ready for the biggest updet in Uk politics ... and landslide victory.....  just like the last 3 GE

Click to expand...

...the corollary to what Farage as said is although the HoC passing the agreement might close Brexit - it will not shut Farage up.  And so it will go on.


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## GB72 (Oct 17, 2019)

What is possible is that all of the posturing about no deal and leaving on 31st could work in both directions. The media has reported it as being a tool to pressure Europe into concessions but it applies equally well to Parliament passing a deal. If this is viewed as a choice between deal or no deal, it may get the support. The spanner in the works are those still looking for no brexit at all. 

As I mentioned before, I think it will pass but only with an amendment requiring a public vote so as Labour cannot be blamed for voting for the deal if they ever get into power.


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## Mudball (Oct 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ are you a wind up ?

Achieve the â€œimpossibleâ€ - did May not also agree a deal with the EU ?

And you think getting the MPâ€™s to agree is the easy bit ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Apologies... I should have added the mandatory smiley faces at the end


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 17, 2019)

GB72 said:



*Thing is, this plays both ways. Outside of the EU, if labour get in power they are free to introduce the most stringent set of work rights going should they so wish, far beyond any EU obligations*. It just seems counter intuitive to argue that the deal that removes us from the EU is not acceptable because it does not tie us to EU worker regulations.
		
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Possibly, but for the immediate future I very much doubt Labour will get in power with the team they have at the top now. let's face it, they have been opposing the worst shower of incompetence that the Tories have had in a long time and have not even landed a blow really. So a big deregulation of workers rights is much ore likely than an increase in regulation IMHO. After all, isn't that what Brexit's about, freeing ourselves from the over regulated shackles of the EU. Apparently.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 17, 2019)

@bbclaurak
Â·
1m

Juncker tells me there â€˜must be no prolongation-  it has to happen nowâ€™ - has Johnson persuaded EU to say itâ€™s genuinely this deal or no deal - no delay?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



@bbclaurak
Â·
1m

Juncker tells me there â€˜must be no prolongation-  it has to happen nowâ€™ - has Johnson persuaded EU to say itâ€™s genuinely this deal or no deal - no delay?
		
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Let be honest the EU arenâ€™t going to want the UK to walk away without a deal in place because of the level of funding they would lose , if the deal doesnâ€™t go through I have no doubt there will be an extension but a longer one


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## ger147 (Oct 17, 2019)

So it's deal or no deal time according to Juncker. Say what you like about Boris but he's playing a blinder here IMO.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

ger147 said:



			So it's deal or no deal time according to Juncker. Say what you like about Boris but he's playing a blinder here IMO.
		
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A blinder that ends up with the UK agreeing a deal very arguably worse than May's.  Top stuff BoJo.  But that is how he'll have it presented.  It's all about Boris after all.  So yes - he has played a blinder for himself.  HoC approves it - BoJo the PM who took UK out of the EU - GE win for BoJo; HoC blocks it - BoJo the PM who agreed the deal but had it blocked - GE win for BoJo.  Win-Win for BoJo.  Not so sure about the rest of us.

And it appears that what Juncker said about 'deal or no deal time' is not quite as unambiguous as some would have it.


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## woody69 (Oct 17, 2019)

This deal is effectively the same deal that May rejected 3.5 years ago as a solution from the EU, saying it wasn't acceptable as it annexed NI from the rest of the UK and most of the rest of it is exactly the same.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 17, 2019)

I'm hoping they agree a deal only for a small EU country to veto it.

Weeks later a special trade deal is agreed with said country that more than covers the loss our withdrawal would have gotten them....

It's about time it was done. Deal or out. We could put a 6 year timetable down and won't agree something.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 17, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



@bbclaurak
Â·
1m

Juncker tells me there â€˜must be no prolongation-  it has to happen nowâ€™ - has Johnson persuaded EU to say itâ€™s genuinely this deal or no deal - no delay?
		
Click to expand...

And his next words were _If we have a deal. We have a deal There is no need for a prolongation. Thatâ€™s not only the British view it is my view as well'.  _The lovely Laura has then tweeted_ 'Important to know it is not up to Juncker to give an extension or not - but this is clear sign eu leaders willing to pile pressure on MPs to avoid one '_

Which to me sums it up, no exact mention of no deal, but cleverly worded that they can still give an extension but Junker strongly wants the UK parliament to agree the deal. Indeed the Sky political correspondent has said _'About to get on a plane back but just on Junckerâ€™s words on extension. EU source says: â€œItâ€™s not in his gift to rule it out, he is just defending the deal and saying one shouldn't be needed...I am 100% certain EU27 would permit an extension if deal falls on Saturday.â€ "Clearly thatâ€™s not to say this isnâ€™t helpful for Number 10, it is. Shows Commission wants this done, no mean feat theyâ€™re working with Downing St given relations were previously so cold. But highly highly doubtful that if deal goes down it means no extension."_


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 17, 2019)

ger147 said:



			So it's deal or no deal time according to Juncker. *Say what you like about Boris but he's playing a blinder here IMO.*

Click to expand...

Or as someone on twitter said _'Again fascinating Boris Johnson has played almost exactly Theresa Mayâ€™s strategy. Run down the clock, keep it secret so it canâ€™t be derailed, then tell MPs itâ€™s Deal or No Deal. Is she the woman whose plan was scorned until a man repeated it? Or is it a plan bound to fail? _


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## jp5 (Oct 17, 2019)

Just when I thought we were at peak Brexit, Farage is now supporting the Benn "surrender act" as he called it


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2019)

So we accept this deal that still pays Â£39billion, allows the EU to make our laws ...where is the difference to remain apart from remaining gives us a voice.
Silly silly silly


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So we accept this deal that still pays Â£39billion, allows the EU to make our laws ...where is the difference to remain apart from remaining gives us a voice.
Silly silly silly
		
Click to expand...

Hasn't the Â£39 billion reduced due to payments during the extension? I thought it was based on leaving on 31st March. Our monthly payments since then would bring it down by about Â£5 billion.


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## jp5 (Oct 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So we accept this deal that still pays Â£39billion, allows the EU to make our laws ...where is the difference to remain apart from remaining gives us a voice.
Silly silly silly
		
Click to expand...

That was the gist of the Remain argument in 2016 as I recall, but it narrowly lost to more attractive campaigning. Anyway, that ship has sailed.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2019)

So we accept this deal that still pays Â£39billion, allows the EU to make our laws ...where is the difference to remain apart from remaining gives us a voice.
Silly silly si


jp5 said:



			That was the gist of the Remain argument in 2016 as I recall, but it narrowly lost to more attractive campaigning. Anyway, that ship has sailed.
		
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yup, and the leavers have had numerous bites at the cherry but itâ€™s not a cherry itâ€™s a turd sandwich and will always be.


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## jp5 (Oct 17, 2019)

Who knows, let's give it a decade with this arrangement and see where we are.

Maybe it'll be just what we need, maybe there will be pressure for us to rejoin.


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## chrisd (Oct 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why do I think Brexit is a bad idea? 

.
		
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Frankly, after 3 years of reading the crap you post I really dont give a "flying flamingo" what your thoughts on Brexit are.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Frankly, after 3 years of reading the crap you post I really dont give a "flying flamingo" what your thoughts on Brexit are.
		
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Did you like Mayâ€™s deal?


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## chrisd (Oct 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Did you like Mayâ€™s deal?
		
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I'd prefer a no deal Brexit to May's


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So we accept this deal that still pays Â£39billion, allows the EU to make our laws ...where is the difference to remain apart from remaining gives us a voice.
Silly silly si

yup, and the leavers have had numerous bites at the cherry but itâ€™s not a cherry itâ€™s a turd sandwich and will always be.
		
Click to expand...

Do you believe it to be acceptable for the UK not pay this money? If so why.
You say that the EU will make our laws, can you elaborate on this, are you suggesting we will not be able to make our own laws?
I guess any deal, or no deal, that takes the UK out of the EU will be a turd sandwich for you but don't knock it, 100 billion flies cant all be wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Frankly, after 3 years of reading the crap you post I really dont give a "flying flamingo" what your thoughts on Brexit are.
		
Click to expand...

So having concerns about the poor, disadvantaged and less able to cope with negative impacts of leaving the EU is a load of crap...

If you say so.


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## chrisd (Oct 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So having concerns about the poor, disadvantaged and less able to cope with negative impacts of leaving the EU is a load of crap...

If you say so.
		
Click to expand...

- 


 No, as usual you twist things, my concerns are your posts - I m fed up with your views and do not accept they accurately state what will happen with Brexit


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So having concerns about the poor, disadvantaged and less able to cope with negative impacts of leaving the EU is a load of crap...

If you say so.
		
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There may well be positive impacts for these people, or, they may be just as poor and disadvantages as they have been in the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			-


No, as usual you twist things, my concerns are your posts - I m fed up with your views and do not accept they accurately state what will happen with Brexit
		
Click to expand...

Of course they don't accurately state what *will* happen with Brexit - other than what we *know* will happen.  And there are plenty of things that we *know* we will lose.  There is little, if anything, that those who have had us leave can say *will *happen that *will *benefit us all in the short term to compensate for what we will lose.  Ah yes - if I so choose I can wave my blue passport (but not for another 9 yrs) and celebrate...erm...and take advantage of...erm...and blame Remoaners...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There may well be positive impacts for these people, or, they may be just as poor and disadvantages as they have been in the EU.
		
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I still struggle to find an example of something that might happen to improve the lot of the poorer...increased wages?  Happening anyway through the increased Living Wage ...and small business complaining like buggery. Greater job security?  Improved working conditions?  Cheaper basic foodstuffs?

But if leaving sinks Farage's inflatable dingy then that that's one great thing,


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## Dando (Oct 17, 2019)

chrisd said:



			- 


 No, as usual you twist things, my concerns are your posts - I m fed up with your views and do not accept they accurately state what will happen with Brexit
		
Click to expand...

But what does your barber think?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you believe it to be acceptable for the UK not pay this money? If so why.
You say that the EU will make our laws, can you elaborate on this, are you suggesting we will not be able to make our own laws?
I guess any deal, or no deal, that takes the UK out of the EU will be a turd sandwich for you but don't knock it, 100 billion flies cant all be wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Seems like you have all changed your minds, TMâ€™s deal was better but you all think Boris has done a blinder. 
Is it because he is a man? or is it just desperation to get it done irrespective of the quality?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There may well be positive impacts for these people, or, they may be just as poor and disadvantages as they have been in the EU.
		
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There will be no benefits because the UK political system doesnâ€™t care.
Where the EU succeeded was it took the money paid in and redistributed it to the poorer areas who would have been neglected because of their political  affiliations.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2019)

But it doesnâ€™t matter now, letâ€™s see Saturdayâ€™s vote ..


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I still struggle to find an example of something that might happen to improve the lot of the poorer...increased wages?  Happening anyway through the increased Living Wage ...and small business complaining like buggery. Greater job security?  Improved working conditions?  Cheaper basic foodstuffs?

But if leaving sinks Farage's inflatable dingy then that that's one great thing,
		
Click to expand...

The poor will always be with us, you should know that. Even your EU security blanket has not managed to reduce them or improve their lot, only wealth creation has a chance of distributing it down the line and that comes down to the people who will be prepared to create and expand business, not those who prefer to stifle and over-regulate it.  You mention job security, the EU has worked quite hard to entice jobs out of the UK and into other poorer EU member states.  They have also used our money to protect inefficient food producers by artificially forcing up food prices by making produce from outside the club less competitive with the use of tarrifs and quotas, a lot of food produce are cheaper from outside the EU.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 17, 2019)

So all the main players who were up in arms about the prospect of a no deal Brexit, so much so they hamstrung the government with the Benn act, have now unanimously said they will vote against this deal!! No pleasing some people!

Iâ€™ve no idea whatâ€™s in the deal but if Nigel reckons it does not go far enough and Niccola says it goes too far itâ€™s probably pitched about right.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			So all the main players who were up in arms about the prospect of a no deal Brexit, so much so they hamstrung the government with the Benn act, have now unanimously said they will vote against this deal!! No pleasing some people!

Iâ€™ve no idea whatâ€™s in the deal but if Nigel reckons it does not go far enough and Niccola says it goes too far itâ€™s probably pitched about right.
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully the EU will refuse an extension.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Hopefully the EU will refuse an extension.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s what Drunker was hinting at.


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## chrisd (Oct 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course they don't accurately state what *will* happen with Brexit - other than what we *know* will happen.  And there are plenty of things that we *know* we will lose.  There is little, if anything, that those who have had us leave can say *will *happen that *will *benefit us all in the short term to compensate for what we will lose.  Ah yes - if I so choose I can wave my blue passport (but not for another 9 yrs) and celebrate...erm...and take advantage of...erm...and blame Remoaners...

Click to expand...

Yeah right ðŸ˜£


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## chrisd (Oct 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			But what does your barber think?
		
Click to expand...

She agrees entirely with me


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Hasn't the Â£39 billion reduced due to payments during the extension? I thought it was based on leaving on 31st March. Our monthly payments since then would bring it down by about Â£5 billion.
		
Click to expand...

It has.
'Divorce bill' now around 33Bn


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It has.
'Divorce bill' now around 33Bn
		
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I'm surprised that Boris hasn't been more open in celebrating the fact that his agreement is much better because we're going to be paying Â£6  billion less than under May's deal.


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm surprised that Boris hasn't been more open in celebrating the fact that his agreement is much better because we're going to be paying Â£6  billion less than under May's deal.
		
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Probably too busy 'celebrating' the actual agreement!

Oh and it's only because we've already 'paid down' that money! So it's not been reduced!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Oh and it's only because we've already 'paid down' that money! So it's not been reduced!
		
Click to expand...

Since when have the facts got in the way of what comes out of the mouth of a politician? We're paying Â£6 billion less for this agreement, I'm surprised they aren't shouting it from the rooftops.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 17, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184817365025996801


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Since when have the facts got in the way of what comes out of the mouth of a politician? We're paying Â£6 billion less for this agreement, I'm surprised they aren't shouting it from the rooftops.
		
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That would so easly be countered, even a politician wouldn't try to do that - as the counter would almost certainly have a more negative effect than the statement!

No such issue for Newspapers though, so could well see it used it for a headline, with subsequent reason in the 'small print'!


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 17, 2019)

Question - More important than Brexit.

From the 14713 posts on this thread how many has SILH had?

Guesses only please.


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## BrianM (Oct 17, 2019)

The EU must be worried as well, losing one of there major contributors, could the EU even collapse?


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## Mudball (Oct 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The poor will always be with us, you should know that. Even your EU security blanket has not managed to reduce them or improve their lot, only wealth creation has a chance of distributing it down the line and that comes down to the people who will be prepared to create and expand business, not those who prefer to stifle and over-regulate it.  You mention job security, the EU has worked quite hard to entice jobs out of the UK and into other poorer EU member states.  They have also used our money to protect inefficient food producers by artificially forcing up food prices by making produce from outside the club less competitive with the use of tarrifs and quotas, a lot of food produce are cheaper from outside the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Love the â€˜unbiasedâ€™ view that the EU is responsible for all our industries being decimated. Now we are looking to dominate the world with the same ones. 
If I go back in history, it is said that the British Raj decimated the cloth weaving and hand loom industries in Western India by insisting that all cotton is sent off to Manchester et al thus starving the local industry of raw materials while also flooding the market with cheap English finished goods. So now we have successully overthrown the EU Raj, we should fine


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			Question - More important than Brexit.

From the 14713 posts on this thread how many has SILH had?

Guesses only please.
		
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Raising entirely valid points or defending his concerns?
Certainly nowhere near as many as those by the 'bullies' condemning his posting without countering his, quite legitimate and reasonable, continued scepticism - your post above being an example!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2019)

But it doesnâ€™t matter now, letâ€™s see Saturdayâ€™s vote ..


3offTheTee said:



			Question - More important than Brexit.

From the 14713 posts on this thread how many has SILH had?

Guesses only please.
		
Click to expand...

less than socketrocket


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## Fade and Die (Oct 17, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184817365025996801

Click to expand...

Relax Angela... Scotland will be along shortly to make up the shortfall ðŸ˜œ


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## Fade and Die (Oct 17, 2019)

Seems amongst other things Mutter is worried about a resurgent U.K. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....tential-competitor-to-eu-emmanuel-macron/amp/


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## Dando (Oct 17, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			Question - More important than Brexit.

From the 14713 posts on this thread how many has SILH had?

Guesses only please.
		
Click to expand...

Only 1 new post but itâ€™s just just been repeated over and over and over and over ....


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Love the â€˜unbiasedâ€™ view that the EU is responsible for all our industries being decimated. Now we are looking to dominate the world with the same ones.
If I go back in history, it is said that the British Raj decimated the cloth weaving and hand loom industries in Western India by insisting that all cotton is sent off to Manchester et al thus starving the local industry of raw materials while also flooding the market with cheap English finished goods. So now we have successully overthrown the EU Raj, we should fine
		
Click to expand...

Post in context.  My post you quoted was in reply to SILH's comments relating to now the poor,food prices and small business would be affected by Brexit, not by me spontaneously ranting about it.  
Regarding food prices:
https://iea.org.uk/blog/abolish-the-cap-let-food-prices-tumble


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 17, 2019)

Iâ€™ve gave up caring about leaving, I just want to â€œwinâ€. So I can stick my fingers up and laugh at remainers. I donâ€™t care about Northern Ireland, I donâ€™t live there. 
Any deal is now a good deal. Letâ€™s move on to the next calamity. This ones got boring now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2019)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...-peace-process-says-pelosi-1.4053662?mode=amp


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			But it doesnâ€™t matter now, letâ€™s see Saturdayâ€™s vote ..

less than socketrocket
		
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Dont drag me into it sweety.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...-peace-process-says-pelosi-1.4053662?mode=amp

Click to expand...

I can almost hear you salivating.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I can almost hear you salivating.
		
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SILH gets a lot of stick on this thread but your level of input is just as bad - what exactly was the point of posting that reply ?


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Raising entirely valid points or defending his concerns?
Certainly nowhere near as many as those by the 'bullies' condemning his his posting without countering his, quite legitimate and reasonable, continued scepticism - your post above being an example!
		
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And where do you stand on his continued insults against those in favour of leaving Foxy?  His posts have been pulled to pieces over the snide comments & unfounded allegations against those opposed to remaining and their motives.

If he'd presented his concerns in a polite and pleasant manner he'd have promoted sensible debate.  He chose not to & then cries foul when people respond to his abuse.  There's more than a suspicion in certain quarters that he's been playing this for s & giggles.

Sorry, but as Big Country put it, "Just as you sow you will reap."


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## robinthehood (Oct 17, 2019)

If the deal is pretty much the same as TMs deal. How can mogg and his cronies get behind it?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			SILH gets a lot of stick on this thread but your level of input is just as bad - what exactly was the point of posting that reply ?
		
Click to expand...

You getting off on what you consider bad Brexit news, why else did you post the link.  Look to yourself first matey.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...-peace-process-says-pelosi-1.4053662?mode=amp

Click to expand...

Maybe The Big Orange Don is right about Nancy, maybe she does have problems upstairs?


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			If the deal is pretty much the same as TMs deal. How can mogg and his cronies get behind it?
		
Click to expand...

You would hope they wouldn't if it is May's dog's dinner Mark 2; Saturday will tell...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You getting off on what you consider bad Brexit news, why else did you post the link.  Look to yourself first matey.
		
Click to expand...

Getting off ?! Grow the hell and stop acting like a ðŸ›Ž end - you are always quick to point the finger at others without looking at yourself 

The post is very relevant right now in regards the deal - just because it doesnâ€™t fit your agenda doesnâ€™t mean people canâ€™t post it.


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## robinthehood (Oct 17, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			You would hope they wouldn't if it is May's dog's dinner Mark 2; Saturday will tell...
		
Click to expand...

It's approx 90% the same. Is that enough of a change? You'd think not going on previous rhetoric from mogg


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## robinthehood (Oct 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You getting off on what you consider bad Brexit news, why else did you post the link.  Look to yourself first matey.
		
Click to expand...

Oof 
It's important brexit news ... in a brexit thread. 
Pretty relevant wouldn't you say?


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It's approx 90% the same. Is that enough of a change? You'd think not going on previous rhetoric from mogg
		
Click to expand...

Not for me, but I don't have a vote this time.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 17, 2019)

Well, from where I am sitting Boris has delivered bugger all... No surprise from here on that either... Always been good on promises but always come up short on delivery...

Hopefully 'no deal' is still on the table...


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The poor will always be with us, you should know that. Even your EU security blanket has not managed to reduce them or improve their lot, only wealth creation has a chance of distributing it down the line and that comes down to the people who will be prepared to create and expand business, not those who prefer to stifle and over-regulate it.  You mention job security, the EU has worked quite hard to entice jobs out of the UK and into other poorer EU member states.  They have also used our money to protect inefficient food producers by artificially forcing up food prices by making produce from outside the club less competitive with the use of tarrifs and quotas, a lot of food produce are cheaper from outside the EU.
		
Click to expand...

You are, quite reasonably, arguing from a 'significantly further to the right' pov than SILH.  
I agree with a lot of the above, though also agree with a couple of Corbyn's concerns of the *possible* consequences of leaving EU regulatory control.
Putting EU's fedaralist ambitions aside, I believe the EU has, in the main, improved European-wide, conditions of life (and work). The fee method actually forces the distribution of wealth down from the line! The Customs Union and Single Market significantly reduces regulation and bureaucracy. While there are certainly individual instances of favourtism/enticement, I believe that, as long as they are not corrupt, that's no different to UK government encouraging the same inn our 'poorer' regions - simply at a 'whole of Europe' level. If the effect is that a 'poorer' country's economy is improved by such 'favourtism', then the incentive to move to a 'wealthier' one is reduced (so fewer immigrants) and wealthier countries levy contributions can be reduced - another positive! There's only a certain level of 'improved efficiency' of food production I'm prepared to accept. I'm opposed to ('more efficiency' by utilising) GM foods from a 'meddling too far with nature' pov. Likewise, I wouldn't want the regs re animal health/welfare to loosen - in fact I believe they should be tightened/properly applied in many cases. If that means it cost me slightly more for (proper) bread or meat, then that's fine by me!


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			And where do you stand on his continued insults against those in favour of leaving Foxy?  His posts have been pulled to pieces over the snide comments & unfounded allegations against those opposed to remaining and their motives.

If he'd presented his concerns in a polite and pleasant manner he'd have promoted sensible debate.  He chose not to & then cries foul when people respond to his abuse.  There's more than a suspicion in certain quarters that he's been playing this for s & giggles.

Sorry, but as Big Country put it, "Just as you sow you will reap."
		
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You mean like the following comment below - that I can't see any relationship to his post?


Blue in Munich said:





SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can give that a break - it's no longer funny - as my French barber has returned to France - very disappointed and pretty sickened by England and Brexit.  And so Brexit job done for that one individual.
		
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And so you continue your snide insinuations that all Brexit voters are knuckle dragging racists whose sole motive is the removal of every foreigner from our shores; why don't you do us all a favour and give it a break?  Your attitude is beneath contempt.
		
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Btw. Big Country wasn't the first to make that comment!


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## Fade and Die (Oct 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You are, quite reasonably, arguing from a 'significantly further to the right' pov than SILH. 
I agree with a lot of the above, though also agree with a couple of Corbyn's concerns of the *possible* consequences of leaving EU regulatory control.
Putting EU's fedaralist ambitions aside, I believe the EU has, in the main, improved European-wide, conditions of life (and work). The fee method actually forces the distribution of wealth down from the line! The Customs Union and Single Market significantly reduces regulation and bureaucracy. While there are certainly individual instances of favourtism/enticement, I believe that, as long as they are not corrupt, that's no different to UK government encouraging the same inn our 'poorer' regions - simply at a 'whole of Europe' level. If the effect is that a 'poorer' country's economy is improved by such 'favourtism', then the incentive to move to a 'wealthier' one is reduced (so fewer immigrants) and wealthier countries levy contributions can be reduced - another positive! There's only a certain level of 'improved efficiency' of food production I'm prepared to accept. I'm opposed to ('more efficiency' by utilising) GM foods from a 'meddling too far with nature' pov. Likewise, I wouldn't want the regs re animal health/welfare to loosen - in fact I believe they should be tightened/properly applied in many cases. If that means it cost me slightly more for (proper) bread or meat, then that's fine by me!
		
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A big â€œlikeâ€ for the part of your post regarding food, one of my pet peeves animal welfare and meat and dairy being too cheap in supermarkets.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Btw. Big Country wasn't the first to make that comment!
		
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I'm fully aware of that, but SILH gets humpy if you bring his religion into it so I chose an alternative source.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Getting off ?! Grow the hell and stop acting like a ðŸ›Ž end - you are always quick to point the finger at others without looking at yourself 

The post is very relevant right now in regards the deal - just because it doesnâ€™t fit your agenda doesnâ€™t mean people canâ€™t post it.
		
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Post what you like but dont pretend its something its not.  You posed a link to an article you thought was a putdown to Brexit, you didnt post any thoughts on it or used it to support any. It was just a schoolboy type bum flash.  Try harder.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You are, quite reasonably, arguing from a 'significantly further to the right' pov than SILH.  
I agree with a lot of the above, though also agree with a couple of Corbyn's concerns of the *possible* consequences of leaving EU regulatory control.
Putting EU's fedaralist ambitions aside, I believe the EU has, in the main, improved European-wide, conditions of life (and work). The fee method actually forces the distribution of wealth down from the line! The Customs Union and Single Market significantly reduces regulation and bureaucracy. While there are certainly individual instances of favourtism/enticement, I believe that, as long as they are not corrupt, that's no different to UK government encouraging the same inn our 'poorer' regions - simply at a 'whole of Europe' level. If the effect is that a 'poorer' country's economy is improved by such 'favourtism', then the incentive to move to a 'wealthier' one is reduced (so fewer immigrants) and wealthier countries levy contributions can be reduced - another positive! There's only a certain level of 'improved efficiency' of food production I'm prepared to accept. I'm opposed to ('more efficiency' by utilising) GM foods from a 'meddling too far with nature' pov. Likewise, I wouldn't want the regs re animal health/welfare to loosen - in fact I believe they should be tightened/properly applied in many cases. If that means it cost me slightly more for (proper) bread or meat, then that's fine by me!
		
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To clarify. I didnt mean animal rights or food safety  standards being lowered, we should be capable of managing these things ourselves.


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## robinthehood (Oct 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			To clarify. I didnt mean animal rights or food safety  standards being lowered, we should be capable of managing these things ourselves.
		
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Oof 
Free trade with the US means some very low standards....


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You mean like the following comment below - that I can't see any relationship to his post?
		
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He asked us to *give it a break* in respect of *repeated* *comments* about his French barber. as they were *no longer funny*.  I asked that he *give it a break* in respect of his *repeated* *snide comments* about the motives of those who voted Leave as they were *no longer funny*. 

Truth be told his insinuations of racism never were funny.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2019)

Oh dear - someone isnâ€™t happy 

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-brexit-extension_uk_5da88984e4b0b24e75dea0a4


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof
Free trade with the US means some very low standards....
		
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Oh yes! Yanks are falling like flies with chlorineitis ðŸ™„


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## robinthehood (Oct 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh yes! Yanks are falling like flies with chlorineitis ðŸ™„
		
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Have a look in to why they use chlorine.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Have a look in to why they use chlorine.
		
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The EU say it is used so that the USA can have poor hygiene behaviour elsewhere in the chain.

The USA says there is no scientific proof of that and accuses the EU of protectionism.

One of those statements sounds familiar... 

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/food-sa...at-their-poultry-with-chlorine/555618.article


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## robinthehood (Oct 17, 2019)

If you're happy to eat ultra cheap chicken that's been crammed into barns and raised with little to no regulation , then crack on.


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Raising entirely valid points or defending his concerns?
Certainly nowhere near as many as those by the 'bullies' condemning his posting without countering his, quite legitimate and reasonable, continued scepticism - your post above being an example!
		
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Merely asking a questionFH.

cannot see any criticism or bullying. X-ray vision have we old chap!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			If you're happy to eat ultra cheap chicken that's been crammed into barns and raised with little to no regulation , then crack on.
		
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I assume that you do realise that even if we sign a deal that allows US chicken to be sold in this country that you won't be forced to eat it. I'll continue to do what I do now and go to my local butcher to buy my meat. And I also assume that you are equally vocal with your objections to chlorine washed salads that are currently freely available in the EU.


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 17, 2019)

This is a simple question:

if the various constituencies voted 406 to 242 to leave why do the MPâ€™s not follow their requests?

Very simplistic I know but very overwhelming


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## Slime (Oct 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			If you're happy to eat ultra cheap chicken that's been crammed into barns and raised with little to no regulation , then crack on.
		
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I'm glad I have your permission.


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## robinthehood (Oct 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I assume that you do realise that even if we sign a deal that allows US chicken to be sold in this country that you won't be forced to eat it. I'll continue to do what I do now and go to my local butcher to buy my meat. And I also assume that you are equally vocal with your objections to chlorine washed salads that are currently freely available in the EU.
		
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Sadly you're missing the point and it's all going over your head.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			This is a simple question:

if the various constituencies voted 406 to 242 to leave why do the MPâ€™s not follow their requests?

Very simplistic I know but very overwhelming
		
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Because the referendum wasn't a vote along constituency lines. It was a UK wide vote. Which is why we don't constantly hear about Scotland or young people voting remain or old people voting leave. Oh, hang on a minute. ðŸ¤”


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Sadly you're missing the point and it's all going over your head.
		
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So educate me on the point you're trying to make that I'm missing.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			If you're happy to eat ultra cheap chicken that's been crammed into barns and raised with little to no regulation , then crack on.
		
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What proof can you show to support your statement?
You talk as though Americans accept poor hygiene and are prepared to eat sub standard meat. Its absolute twaddle with no proof, we have higher levels of infection in chickens in this country, read the link that was posted and educate yourself. Oof!


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## Tashyboy (Oct 17, 2019)

Quote
Shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer said Labour would oppose the deal, citing concerns it would allow the UK to move further away from EU regulations in the future.

I see that Labour still Dont get it. Am sure that's what the people of this country voted for. There day of reckoning will come at the next GE


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## fundy (Oct 17, 2019)

Wow, it is true, the football thread isnt the worst on the forum. Who'd have thunk it eh


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## Mudball (Oct 18, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Iâ€™ve gave up caring about leaving, I just want to â€œwinâ€. So I can stick my fingers up and laugh at remainers. I donâ€™t care about Northern Ireland, I donâ€™t live there.
Any deal is now a good deal. Letâ€™s move on to the next calamity. This ones got boring now.
		
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Finally an honest man on this forum..  Attaboy..


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2019)

fundy said:



			Wow, it is true, the football thread isnt the worst on the forum. Who'd have thunk it eh 

Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

Depends on what day it is and who has/hasn't played!!! ðŸ˜‰


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## harpo_72 (Oct 18, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Finally an honest man on this forum..  Attaboy..
		
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I think where most leavers have got to ... but they have not got the honesty to admit that their comments about the land of milk and honey never existed.

Has labour had it's day .. under Corbyn probably. But to believe all American is great is a sad state of affairs, there is some good but most is bad. Remember the US was never touched by any of the world wars .. it hasn't had to rebuild itself, it has only profited. It provided us with inferior goods like liberty ships and sherman tanks at a cost that we were paying for beyond the Millennium. Look what they have done to the Kurds and it leaves you thinking I don't want to have any relationship with you.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 18, 2019)

3offTheTee said:



			This is a simple question:

if the various constituencies voted 406 to 242 to leave why do the MPâ€™s not follow their requests?

Very simplistic I know but very overwhelming
		
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Been done to death but to recap, because we operate in a representative democracy not a direct democracy. A representative democracy is where we elect people to represent us, direct democracy is where people decide everything themselves. How the representatives make their decisions in a representative democracy is down to many things including their conscience and the need to be reelected.

Example being that a labour MP in a deprived area where a majority of their their constituency voted to leave may be torn between voting for the deal as that is what the majority of constituents wanted and it may increase their chances or being reelected. Or rejecting this deal as they feel the potential deregulation in employment laws will in fact not improve the lives or economy of the area they represent, indeed it will make it worse.  And that passing the deal will vastly increase the overall chances of the Tories having a bigger majority in the upcoming GE.


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## robinthehood (Oct 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What proof can you show to support your statement?
You talk as though Americans accept poor hygiene and are prepared to eat sub standard meat. Its absolute twaddle with no proof, we have higher levels of infection in chickens in this country, read the link that was posted and educate yourself. Oof!
		
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Proof of what? Your making assumptions that I am bothred by chlorine washes.


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## Grant85 (Oct 18, 2019)

Prediction for Saturday

The Government won't get their deal through. 
Labour will try to add an ammendment to 'put it to the people' and they won't get that through. 
SNP will add an amendment for extension and General Election, and they won't get that through. 

Boris will ultimately comply with UK Law and request extension on Saturday at 1159. 

We will then have a bit of wrangling next week about whether to have another referendum or an election. I would hope sense would prevail and a 2nd referendum will win - then the people can decide if this form of Brexit is what they want, or if we should just forget about the last 40 months and go back to the good ole days.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 18, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Prediction for Saturday

The Government won't get their deal through.
Labour will try to add an ammendment to 'put it to the people' and they won't get that through.
SNP will add an amendment for extension and General Election, and they won't get that through.

Boris will ultimately comply with UK Law and request extension on Saturday at 1159.

We will then have a bit of wrangling next week about whether to have another referendum or an election. I would hope sense would prevail and a 2nd referendum will win - then the people can decide if this form of Brexit is what they want, or if we should just forget about the last 40 months and go back to the good ole days.
		
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That's a pretty safe bet.
I think we do need to say 2nd referendum with a detailed break down of the deal being offered and how it compares to remain.
No deal is not in the mix, so forget it. Let the referendum guide them on the deal ... this time, though all the claims will need to be forensically scrutinised, before being made, as the British public are, dare I say it .. a bit gullible.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 18, 2019)

Sinister :
John McDonnell refuses to say whether #Labour MPs will be punished if they back #Brexit deal. Says heâ€™s confident he can â€œpersuadeâ€ them not to


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## harpo_72 (Oct 18, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Sinister :
John McDonnell refuses to say whether #Labour MPs will be punished if they back #Brexit deal. Says heâ€™s confident he can â€œpersuadeâ€ them not to
		
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They should be removed from the party if they do not follow the party ideal .. Boris was correct in his actions ... different views in a party that are completely opposed to the party opinion are a cancer that need removing..


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## Grant85 (Oct 18, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Sinister :
John McDonnell refuses to say whether #Labour MPs will be punished if they back #Brexit deal. Says heâ€™s confident he can â€œpersuadeâ€ them not to
		
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I'd imagine that given they have not expelled John Mann or Kate Hoey (who have consistently voted with the Government on matters Brexit) any Labour rebels will get away with it. 

Cynic would suggest Labour leadership don't care that much if this deal gets through. Draws a line under this part of the process and takes remain off the table.


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## jp5 (Oct 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			They should be removed from the party if they do not follow the party ideal
		
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I wonder if Mr Corbyn would step down then given how many times he has rebelled against the party line in his career


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## harpo_72 (Oct 18, 2019)

jp5 said:



			I wonder if Mr Corbyn would step down then given how many times he has rebelled against the party line in his career 

Click to expand...

Looks like the unions have made it their party led by their man now .. I am okay with that but they won't get my vote as i am not that far left. So in the end if the party separates to moderate left and far left that's good and like wise the Tory's do the same then we will have the extreme factions marginalised .. I hope!


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## jp5 (Oct 18, 2019)

No chance the Tories will split, self-preservation is in their DNA! Not so sure about Labour, depends who they put in charge after Corbyn. But any party tends to need to be a broad church to gain power in our system.


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			He asked us to *give it a break* in respect of *repeated* *comments* about his French barber. as they were *no longer funny*.  I asked that he *give it a break* in respect of his *repeated* *snide comments* about the motives of those who voted Leave as they were *no longer funny*.

Truth be told his insinuations of racism never were funny.
		
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I fail to see how your reply to his post bears any relationship to the post, by him, that you quoted! Kindly explain what I am missing!

And I've can't remember ever seeing a post by him insinuating Brexit voters as 'knuckle dragging racists whose sole motive is the removal of every foreigner from our shores' (to quote you!) or anything remotely like that! Kindly point me to a couple (just the post numbers will do).


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## drdel (Oct 18, 2019)

Its clear that Brexit is a totally political football - all sides in EU and UK will want to claim their positive slant/win and eventually it will be up to the Civil Servants in UK and in Brussels to try and make a sensible working system amidst the continuous political spin.

I wouldn't get too excited by the media reports: this 'game' is set to go to full-time and we ain't reached half-time yet and the referee's lost the watch and the rule book !!!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			That's a pretty safe bet.
I think we do need to say 2nd referendum with a detailed break down of the deal being offered and how it compares to remain.
No deal is not in the mix, so forget it. Let the referendum guide them on the deal ... this time, though all the claims will need to be forensically scrutinised, before being made, as the British public are, dare I say it .. a bit gullible.
		
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A second referendum without the first result being enacted is anti democratic,  no ifs no buts.  It is only being called for by those who's vote lost , I guess at my age I shouldnt be surprised at anything in politics but what is happening stinks of the modern 'entitlement' mindset.

If we were to have a second referendum then why not one for Deal or No Deal, I guess remainers wouldn't like that and would roll out these pathetic reasons like 'we know so much more now' or 'the result of the first referendum was based on a lie painted on the side of a bus'.  Just imagine if the vote was won by remain by the same percentage and leave MPs had created the same type scenario as we have experienced and asked for a second referendum,  what would your honest opinion be for that?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			Its clear that Brexit is a totally political football - all sides in EU and UK will want to claim their positive slant/win and eventually it will be up to the Civil Servants in UK and in Brussels to try and make a sensible working system amidst the continuous political spin.

I wouldn't get too excited by the media reports: this 'game' is set to go to full-time and we ain't reached half-time yet and the referee's lost the watch and the rule book !!!
		
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And the players are intent on scoring own goals because they dont like the pitch.


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## drdel (Oct 18, 2019)

Germany is looking to get a rebate in the next EU budget if the UK has left - I guess that will be more creative accounting (QE).


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185094511925628928
If only the UK could negotiate Raab's fabulous deal for Scotland, England and Wales.


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## drdel (Oct 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185094511925628928
If only the UK could negotiate Raab's fabulous deal for Scotland, England and Wales.

Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185094511925628928
If only the UK could negotiate Raab's fabulous deal for Scotland, England and Wales.

Click to expand...

Don't jump the gun. We're only at the stage of the WA - future of trade etc is a whole new ball game!


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## spongebob59 (Oct 18, 2019)




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## spongebob59 (Oct 18, 2019)

Court of Appeal judges have rejected a bid by civil rights campaigners for an urgent hearing of their case against Prime Minister Boris Johnson over Brexit.
The group, Liberty, brought the case in an attempt to ensure the government complied with the Benn Act - the law passed by MPs last month preventing a no-deal Brexit on 31 October.
Lord Burnett says the judges will give full reasons for their decision in writing at a later date.


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## woody69 (Oct 18, 2019)

spongebob59 said:











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What's so funny about this statement?


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 18, 2019)

woody69 said:



			What's so funny about this statement?
		
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If they vote against what their leave majority constituents voted for they will be voted out at the next GE.
If they vote for what their constituents voted for the party will throw them out.
But they could stand as independents and say they did what voters told them to.
In that case I would imagine they would beat a socialist labour candidate shoed in to replace them.
MPs have a knack for surviving in their own best interest.


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## Grant85 (Oct 18, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If they vote against what their leave majority constituents voted for they will be voted out at the next GE.
If they vote for what their constituents voted for the party will throw them out.
But they could stand as independents and say they did what voters told them to.
In that case I would imagine they would beat a socialist labour candidate shoed in to replace them.
MPs have a knack for surviving in their own best interest.
		
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In reality, the party politics system in this country has made widespread rebellions like what we have seen in the HoC very rare. Once people are elected and serving, it is not appealing to risk that too much.  

It is almost impossible for an ex-Lab or ex-Tory to hold their seat as an independent (assuming they are facing their previous party with a new candidate). 

And it is also very likely that they will in fact split their 'traditional' vote - be it Lab or Tory - and let the opposition candidate in. 

I think we will still see very few (almost none) of ex-Labour and Tory members winning their seat as an independent (or Change UK member). The smart move was by the people who joined the Lib Dems and have either built a campaign base in their own seat or moved to a more winnable seat (Chuka Umuna and Luciana Berger both having been selected for different seats than those which they won with Labour). Looks like Heidi Allen and Sarah Woolaston standing in the same (Tory seats) with Lib Dems. 

I'd imagine all 4 of these saw joining the Lib Dems as only realistic way to continue parliamentary career following leaving their main party. Likely other LD defectors took same decision.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 18, 2019)

Lib Dums  

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/iain-dale-is-forced-to-correct-lib-dem-brexit/


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## woody69 (Oct 18, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Lib Dums  

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/iain-dale-is-forced-to-correct-lib-dem-brexit/

Click to expand...

You must be the happiest person I know as every thing you post seems to have the laughing smiley attached.

It was a bit of a car crash of an interview, but she isn't wrong in the fact that trade going east to west will require checks, which will obviously cause some disruption. Comparing it to the same as no deal was a little silly though


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## spongebob59 (Oct 18, 2019)

Tim Shipman

@ShippersUnbound
Â·
22s

I agree that Macron would ultimately allow an extension but it's significant that he and Varadkar are trying to help Johnson, rather than leave him to get on with it at home


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## Depreston (Oct 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			A second referendum without the first result being enacted is anti democratic,  no ifs no buts.  It is only being called for by those who's vote lost , I guess at my age I shouldnt be surprised at anything in politics but what is happening stinks of the modern 'entitlement' mindset.

If we were to have a second referendum then why not one for Deal or No Deal, I guess remainers wouldn't like that and would roll out these pathetic reasons like 'we know so much more now' or 'the result of the first referendum was based on a lie painted on the side of a bus'.  Just imagine if the vote was won by remain by the same percentage and leave MPs had created the same type scenario as we have experienced and asked for a second referendum,  what would your honest opinion be for that?
		
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the referendum was advisory it would have been chucked out and defined as null and void if it was legally binding 

We have went after it realised itâ€™s a colossal shit show where the MPs in the country canâ€™t make a decent stab of it as itâ€™s clearly a divisive topic in parliament as it is to the public 

This whole winner loser mentality is pathetic itâ€™s not a football match

MPs represent each and every constituent, no constituency voted 100% for leave. If the MP believes this deal or no deal isnâ€™t right for their constituents then they have every right to vote down the deal and no deal and they will be removed from office or voted back in based on their decisions by the voting public.

If the vote was a similar result but Remain had a marginal higher percentage than leave I fully believe these â€œSpartansâ€ and Farage etc would still be hell bent on trying to re run another referendum


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## Mudball (Oct 18, 2019)

Depreston said:



			the referendum was advisory it would have been chucked out and defined as null and void if it was legally binding

We have went after it realised itâ€™s a colossal shit show where the MPs in the country canâ€™t make a decent stab of it as itâ€™s clearly a divisive topic in parliament as it is to the public

This whole winner loser mentality is pathetic itâ€™s not a football match

MPs represent each and every constituent, no constituency voted 100% for leave. If the MP believes this deal or no deal isnâ€™t right for their constituents then they have every right to vote down the deal and no deal and they will be removed from office or voted back in based on their decisions by the voting public.

*If the vote was a similar result but Remain had a marginal higher percentage than leave I fully believe these â€œSpartansâ€ and Farage etc would still be hell bent on trying to re run another referendum*

Click to expand...

Well Farage was so confident that it would be Remain that he declared that the Referendum would be void if the â€™winnerâ€™ should get 2/3 majority (or similar). He then quietly backtracked once he realised that the results had gone the other way.. ahh the irony


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## chrisd (Oct 18, 2019)

Depreston said:



			the referendum was advisory it would have been chucked out and defined as null and void if it was legally binding 

We have went after it realised itâ€™s a colossal shit show where the MPs in the country canâ€™t make a decent stab of it as itâ€™s clearly a divisive topic in parliament as it is to the public 

This whole winner loser mentality is pathetic itâ€™s not a football match

MPs represent each and every constituent, no constituency voted 100% for leave. If the MP believes this deal or no deal isnâ€™t right for their constituents then they have every right to vote down the deal and no deal and they will be removed from office or voted back in based on their decisions by the voting public.

If the vote was a similar result but Remain had a marginal higher percentage than leave I fully believe these â€œSpartansâ€ and Farage etc would still be hell bent on trying to re run another referendum
		
Click to expand...


At no General Election do constituents vote 100% for one party but democracy is enacted, and even if someone were to win by only one vote every constituent would accept the vote - why are the wishes if a 17.4 million people not being treated the same way ?


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## IanM (Oct 18, 2019)

I refer the honourable gentlemen to my earlier answer(s)


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## Dando (Oct 18, 2019)

chrisd said:



			At no General Election do constituents vote 100% for one party but democracy is enacted, and even if someone were to win by only one vote every constituent would accept the vote - why are the wishes if a 17.4 million people not being treated the same way ?
		
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because we didn't vote the way they wanted us too


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## chrisd (Oct 18, 2019)

Dando said:



			because we didn't vote the way they wanted us too
		
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Trying the old "Eu" strategy  - keep em voting till they get it right !


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2019)

Advisory Referendum, Farage said, bla de bla. Keep scraping the barrel guys, the bottoms in sight


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## spongebob59 (Oct 18, 2019)

Looks like the Gauwkward/ Letwin mob have found a way to make tomorrow's vote irrelevant


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## spongebob59 (Oct 18, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185219066954506240


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2019)

Linesman Ross there showing he is not as daft as he looks.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185116869990088705


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## harpo_72 (Oct 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Advisory Referendum, Farage said, bla de bla. Keep scraping the barrel guys, the bottoms in sight 

Click to expand...

Twaddle ... no points made as per usual. Are you behind Borisâ€™ deal or not ??


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## harpo_72 (Oct 18, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185219066954506240

Click to expand...

No deal cannot happen.
This is it guys this deal or extension... 2nd ref ... then remain.
Send Farage to Germany by deleting his uk citizenship, Boris can do I am a celeb and eat cockroaches. Mogg can have his hedge fund redistributed and handed a cardboard box and the EDL can be interned down a Welsh coal mine ðŸ¤£


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No deal cannot happen.
This is it guys this deal or extension... 2nd ref ... then remain.
		
Click to expand...

Of course no deal could still happen. If the EU refuse an extension then we're out with no deal unless the HoC revokes Article 50.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Of course no deal could still happen. If the EU refuse an extension then we're out with no deal unless the HoC revokes Article 50.
		
Click to expand...

The HoC has decided no deal not acceptable..


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The HoC has decided no deal not acceptable..
		
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what the HoC has decided. By law we're leaving on 31st October with no deal unless a deal is agreed or an extension is granted. They can have a hundred votes in the HoC rejecting no deal but unless they change the law it remains the default position.


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## chrisd (Oct 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The HoC has decided no deal not acceptable..
		
Click to expand...

Well let's hope Macron says no to an extension if the deal fails


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The HoC has decided no deal not acceptable..
		
Click to expand...

So?

Parliament voted to trigger Article 50, which states that if no deal is agreed after 2 Years (plus extension(s)) then 'No Deal' happens. 

So 3 options exist. Accept deal agreed by BJ/CJ; Reject NJ/CJ deal - forcing BJ to request extension to negotiate further; Cancel A50! 
If 2nd option (current efault) chosen and extension request is rejected (which I think is likely), then Parliament (not BJ) will be forced to rethink - which would test EU's resolve and it's goals/desire about UK's membership!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 18, 2019)

if No extension, no deal wonâ€™t happen and article 50 is revoked .. that simple. 
So do we actually have a deal? either way you look at it the EU has won.
They win if we remain and they win with the deal ... leavers lose on every level.


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2019)

No deal can still happen.


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## Dando (Oct 18, 2019)

PieMan said:



			No deal can still happen.
		
Click to expand...

You come on here and talk like you actually know whatâ€™s going on! How dare you!


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			if No extension, no deal wonâ€™t happen and article 50 is revoked .. that simple.
...
		
Click to expand...

So Parliament loses whatever is left of its integrity!


harpo_72 said:



			...
So do we actually have a deal? either way you look at it the EU has won.
They win if we remain and they win with the deal ... leavers lose on every level.
		
Click to expand...

It's not a competition! Both sides 'lose' - imo!

Leavers actually finally get something they won a Referendum about!

As far as I can see, the only 'losers' are those Remains who REALLY wanted to remain - as opposed to those, like myself, who (on balance) preferred to remain, or were simply fearful of leaving.


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## drdel (Oct 18, 2019)

PieMan said:



			No deal can still happen.
		
Click to expand...

Can Letwin's amendment upset the apple-cart?


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## spongebob59 (Oct 18, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-parliaments-50098128


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## drdel (Oct 18, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-parliaments-50098128

Click to expand...

IMO it is just further evidence of how far removed from reality some MPs have become in their HoC bubble.


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## fundy (Oct 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO it is just further evidence of how far removed from reality some MPs have become in their HoC bubble.
		
Click to expand...


to see how far removed they are, one of them stood up and asked for childcare expenses after MPs had to work on a saturday for the 3rd time in 70 years, some people have to do that each month!


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO it is just further evidence of how far removed from reality some MPs have become in their HoC bubble.
		
Click to expand...

Or how little they trust BoJo!

Seems to me a reasonable action - certainly keeping control of the agenda where it belongs...in Parliament. And it would also forewarn the result of the extension request.

Btw. The request for Childcare expenses for Saturday seems quite reasonable to me!


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## drdel (Oct 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Or how little they trust BoJo!

Seems to me a reasonable action - certainly keeping control of the agenda where it belongs...in Parliament. And it would also forewarn the result of the extension request.

Btw. The request for Childcare expenses for Saturday seems quite reasonable to me!
		
Click to expand...

But do you really think that was the motive rather than kicking Brexit down the road.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 18, 2019)

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-10-18...n-of-his-brexit-victory-writes-robert-peston/


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			But do you really think that was the motive rather than kicking Brexit down the road.
		
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Does it matter? At least, it shouldn't if BoJo stays 'honest'! Which seems to be quite a task!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So Parliament loses whatever is left of its integrity!

It's not a competition! Both sides 'lose' - imo!

Leavers actually finally get something they won a Referendum about!

As far as I can see, the only 'losers' are those Remains who REALLY wanted to remain - as opposed to those, like myself, who (on balance) preferred to remain, or were simply fearful of leaving.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s true ... the remainers lose on the deal as well.
But the pleasure is the irony.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thatâ€™s true ... the remainers lose on the deal as well.
But the pleasure is the irony.
		
Click to expand...

We have been fed a constant message from Remainers they want to stop No Deal. So here's their chance by voting for a deal or chance what they have been fearing becoming a reality.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 19, 2019)

Might be a bit amusing if the vote is tied and the Speaker casts the deciding vote.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/are-you-being-served/#comments
And Scotland does not even get a chance to drink at the last chance saloon.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 19, 2019)

And so...as we face the prospect today of BoJoâ€™s Deal winning the day I am wondering: What happened to No Deal is Better than a Bad Deal; What happened to No Border in the Irish Sea Ever; What happened to the Alternative Arrangements to manage the border; What happened to The Technical Solutions are there they just need rolled out; What happened to The Irish Border is a non-issue easily dealt with; What happened to the German car industry, French and Italian wine-producers coming galloping over the horizon (maybe they did - we just didnâ€™t see or hear them); What happened to us refusing to pay all the Â£39bn (or whatever it is now) until the new free trade agreement is agreed; What happened to us trading on WTO rules - and donâ€™t you just love such as R-M seemingly forgetting he ever talked about leaving and trading under GATT 24 etc etc. What happened to David Davis being in Berlin the day after the vote opening talks with Germany.   And why have workers rights been removed from the legally binding part to that part that is not legally binding.  Why? Unless the why is beacause some such as Raab and Patel would have these rights reduced.

How come BoJo is being celebrated for persuading the EU to reopen the WIthdrawl Agreement so they can agree what many understand to be a worse agreement overall for the UK.

And still I struggle to understand why it is a good thing for me - why I will be better off tomorrow than I am this morning.  Because I know what I will be losing (for example freedom of movement) and I do not know what I will be gaining other than a promise of jam tomorrow.

And I look at ERG folk saying they will support BoJoâ€™s May Mk2, and I wonder if they do this as they think that when we do not reach a trade agreement in the transition period (by mid-2020) an extension will not be requested or passed by a BoJo government and so at end 2020 we leave - effectively on a No Deal basis.

And yet still a part of me thinks getting BoJo May Mk2 through today would be OK - simply for the healing of the country.  I wish I had any confidence that it would.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We have been fed a constant message from Remainers they want to stop No Deal. So here's their chance by voting for a deal or chance what they have been fearing becoming a reality.
		
Click to expand...

So you think your bully the remainers into this deal ? 
If we leave without a deal .. which is unlikely as the HoC will not let us and the Benn Agreement accounts for that .. the ERG and Boris will be wholly to blame.
If we remain there will be a minority of hard core leavers - but a majority of level headed people who know that the deal was never going to be great and will either work tirelessly to make sure that we are prepared to leave in the future with a strong position or we remain and influence and control the EU bodies.


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## Dando (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So you think your bully the remainers into this deal ? 
If we leave without a deal .. which is unlikely as the HoC will not let us and the Benn Agreement accounts for that .. the ERG and Boris will be wholly to blame.
If we remain there will be a minority of hard core leavers - but a majority of level headed people who know that the deal was never going to be great and will either work tirelessly to make sure that we are prepared to leave in the future with a strong position or we remain and influence and control the EU bodies.
		
Click to expand...

If the remoamers get their way there will never be another chance to leave.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 19, 2019)

Dando said:



			If the remoamers get their way there will never be another chance to leave.
		
Click to expand...

Because they are the majority... but you can go if you want to Australia is just a flight away.


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## chrisd (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Because they are the majority... but you can go if you want to Australia is just a flight away.
		
Click to expand...

Great trolling !


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## Dando (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Because they are the majority... but you can go if you want to Australia is just a flight away.
		
Click to expand...

They werenâ€™t when the vote was but they just canâ€™t accept losing so will do everything they can to overturn the result.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Because they are the majority..
		
Click to expand...

That may or may not be true now but unfortunately we weren't in the majority when it actually mattered among those who could be bothered to vote in the referendum.


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## Dando (Oct 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Great trolling !
		
Click to expand...

Heâ€™s out from under his bridge early today


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## Dando (Oct 19, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That may or may not be true now but unfortunately we weren't in the majority when it actually mattered among those who could be bothered to vote in the referendum.
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t confuse him with facts


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## harpo_72 (Oct 19, 2019)

You had a chance to give May a majority to take Brexit through. She did not get it. Farage didnâ€™t stand to see his handy work through.
The referendum was half a job, and you have had plenty of opportunity to finish the task. However you havenâ€™t and the lies have been flushed out throughout this 3 year period of phaffing and leavers failing, yes failing to deliver on their promises. The remainers havenâ€™t stopped you, you have failed, stop passing the buck and get it right you failed. Now your clinging to a bad deal desperately to save face.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 19, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Great trolling !
		
Click to expand...

Thanks black shirt.


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## Slime (Oct 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Might be a bit amusing if the vote is tied and the Speaker casts the deciding vote.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/are-you-being-served/#comments
And Scotland does not even get a chance to drink at the last chance saloon.
		
Click to expand...

This isn't all about Scotland.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You had a chance to give May a majority to take Brexit through. She did not get it. Farage didnâ€™t stand to see his handy work through.
The referendum was half a job, and you have had plenty of opportunity to finish the task. However you havenâ€™t and the lies have been flushed out throughout this 3 year period of phaffing and leavers failing, yes failing to deliver on their promises. The remainers havenâ€™t stopped you, you have failed, stop passing the buck and get it right you failed. Now your clinging to a bad deal desperately to save face.
		
Click to expand...

To clarify - itâ€™s not the people who voted to leave that have â€œfailedâ€ so I would suggest you change your language and this whole thing has a long way to go yet. The only thing that stops Brexit of some form is revoking Art 50 and that doesnâ€™t appear to be on the table right now.


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## Slime (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



*Because they are the majority.*.. but you can go if you want to Australia is just a flight away.
		
Click to expand...


Oh, pure comedy gold.


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## Dando (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You had a chance to give May a majority to take Brexit through. She did not get it. Farage didnâ€™t stand to see his handy work through.
The referendum was half a job, and you have had plenty of opportunity to finish the task. However you havenâ€™t and the lies have been flushed out throughout this 3 year period of phaffing and leavers failing, yes failing to deliver on their promises. The remainers havenâ€™t stopped you, you have failed, stop passing the buck and get it right you failed. Now your clinging to a bad deal desperately to save face.
		
Click to expand...

How can you say the remoamers havenâ€™t stopped it when theyâ€™ve done nothing but whinge and whine and go to court to stop the result being implented.


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## Slime (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



*You had a chance* to give May a majority to take Brexit through. She did not get it. Farage didnâ€™t stand to see his handy work through.
The referendum was half a job, and *you* *have had plenty of opportunity* to finish the task. However *you* *havenâ€™t *and the lies have been flushed out throughout this 3 year period of phaffing and leavers failing, yes failing to deliver on their promises. The remainers havenâ€™t stopped you, *you have failed*, stop passing the buck and get it right *you failed.* Now your clinging to a bad deal desperately to save face.
		
Click to expand...

Who the hell is* you*?
Are you referring to me?
Me thinks you're sounding a tad angry and somewhat bitter.
I suggest you take a deep breath.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2019)

Dando said:



			How can you say the remoamers havenâ€™t stopped it when theyâ€™ve done nothing but whinge and whine and go to court to stop the result being implented.
		
Click to expand...

It also doesnâ€™t help anything when people who voted to leave keep using phrases like â€œremoanersâ€ - people canâ€™t point fingers at others when they are no better themselves 

Letâ€™s make it clear - the public had one vote , just one three years ago and we voted on our own feeling at that time. Just because people voted one way or the other doesnâ€™t mean derogatory labels can be used against them. 

Now since that vote itâ€™s up to the political parties to sort out enacting the way people voted - people who voted leave canâ€™t do it and people who voted remain canâ€™t stop it - simple as that , the only people with the power are the politicians 

You only have to look at the way the political parties are treating each other to see how much this whole sorry mess has caused mayhem to the nation , and this thread is a snapshot of that - we are split as a nation and that split imo is now permanent whatever happens now 

A binary choice where is was majority onlt was always going to cause the issues we see 

Our politicians canâ€™t sort out a deal to leave the EU - god help the country if we are trusting this lot to shape our future.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It also doesnâ€™t help anything when people who voted to leave keep using phrases like â€œremoanersâ€ - people canâ€™t point fingers at others when they are no better themselves

Letâ€™s make it clear - the public had one vote , just one three years ago and we voted on our own feeling at that time. Just because people voted one way or the other doesnâ€™t mean derogatory labels can be used against them.

Now since that vote itâ€™s up to the political parties to sort out enacting the way people voted - people who voted leave canâ€™t do it and people who voted remain canâ€™t stop it - simple as that , the only people with the power are the politicians

You only have to look at the way the political parties are treating each other to see how much this whole sorry mess has caused mayhem to the nation , and this thread is a snapshot of that - we are split as a nation and that split imo is now permanent whatever happens now

A binary choice where is was majority onlt was always going to cause the issues we see

Our politicians canâ€™t sort out a deal to leave the EU - god help the country if we are trusting this lot to shape our future.
		
Click to expand...

You almost got that right Phil, but it's more that our politicians *won't* sort out a deal because it doesn't suit their personal agendas.  They couldn't give a flying fandango about the referendum result.


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## Foxholer (Oct 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We have been fed a constant message from Remainers they want to stop No Deal. So here's their chance by voting for a deal or chance what they have been fearing becoming a reality.
		
Click to expand...

That is indeed the case - at least for the 'honest' ones ! But how many of them were simply using the 'must stop No Deal' banner merely as a way to stop ANY deal - with the hope/intention to force another referendum that gets a Remain result? I know my MP is likely to do so - but that won't stop me voting for HIM should he decide to stand next GE.


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so...as we face the prospect today of BoJoâ€™s Deal winning the day I am wondering...
		
Click to expand...

I stated VERY early on that 'Ireland' (and Irish politicians) was going to be he stumbling block (bloc?!) in making a deal - not just because of geography, but because Good Friday Agreement involves the EU as an arbiter! And getting (both sets of) Irish politicians to agree anything is a mammoth task!

BoJo is unconvincing about his (rash, but a good soundbite) claim of 'No border in the Irish Sea', kludge-ing his way around the question in the LK interview I watched. He'll waffle his way round that though and I don't see much of a problem with the proposal - given the commitment to a 'clean' border on the mainland. There'll be scope for technology to be used/developed and, imo, the priority was to agree a workable method, not a perfect solution. The 'periodic review' acts as a good carrot too.

I don't think this is a 'bad deal' like May's one was. As far as I can see, it's a pretty 'clean', if in stages break. May's deal had the potential for the EU to prevent UK from leaving, so WAS a 'bad deal'! The waffle about French wine producers, German car producers etc was merely part of the 'selling' of Leave in the first place, so is pretty irrelevant to a 'deal'.
I don't believe the WA was really ever 'totally closed'. That was merely a negotiation strategy. I believe BoJo (and the negotiating team) merely used a different strateg - the threat of No Deal' to get it tweaked. That's simply how 'diplomacy' works! But he's likely to take (rather unwarranted imo) credit for 'getting it done!

Workers rights *etc* are a fundamental reason why Leaving EU became such an issue imo. While I believe the EU rules are sensible (and indeed minimial standards!), the 'UK laws for the UK' slogan was a powerful banner. To keep such items under EU control would not be deemed 'leaving' by those 'more to the right' than me!. It's now up to Unions to maintain equivalence through negotiation in that regard.

I'm not certain BoJo will actually get 'his' deal through. Nor am I certain that All Blacks will beat the Irish! In both cases, I'll be on the golf during the event, simply hoping it, and some decent golf, happens!


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 19, 2019)

Dando said:



			How can you say the remoamers havenâ€™t stopped it when theyâ€™ve done nothing but whinge and whine and go to court to stop the result being implented.
		
Click to expand...

And changed the law halfway through Benn act.
I would like all choices on the table .
Can we have an amendment to take Remain off the table?


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## chrisd (Oct 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			You almost got that right Phil, but it's more that our politicians *won't* sort out a deal because it doesn't suit their personal agendas.  They couldn't give a flying fandango about the referendum result.
		
Click to expand...

 Spot on Rich. It's a contrived effort so as not to leave , it really has nothing to do with no deal. These MP's will, I hope, get their comeuppance at the soon to come, General Election.


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## chrisd (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thanks black shirt.
		
Click to expand...

Are you special needs ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			You almost got that right Phil, but it's more that our politicians *won't* sort out a deal because it doesn't suit their personal agendas.  They couldn't give a flying fandango about the referendum result.
		
Click to expand...

No doubt and if we leave on a No Deal are people comfortable with these same people looking after our future ? 



chrisd said:



			Spot on Rich. It's a contrived effort so as not to leave , it really has nothing to do with no deal. These MP's will, I hope, get their comeuppance at the soon to come, General Election.
		
Click to expand...

To be replace by who ? 

And do you think some are doing it because they think itâ€™s what is best for the country ? We vote these people in to look after our nation - so if some believe thatâ€™s exactly what they are doing then can we really point fingers ?

These guys apparently are the ones with all the information, the understand the risks - are they in a better place to judge the situation that the man on the street


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No doubt and if we leave on a No Deal are people comfortable with these same people looking after our future ?
		
Click to expand...

Problem is Phil, who is actually looking after our future?  We've seen from this fiasco that despite the faces that are put forward as being in charge, it is clear that there are others who are having a far greater influence than those supposed to be in charge.

What this fiasco has shown is why revolutions come about.  The complete contempt they reserve for those that they are supposed to serve beggars belief.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Problem is Phil, who is actually looking after our future?  We've seen from this fiasco that despite the faces that are put forward as being in charge, it is clear that there are others who are having a far greater influence than those supposed to be in charge.

What this fiasco has shown is why revolutions come about.  The complete contempt they reserve for those that they are supposed to serve beggars belief.
		
Click to expand...

Government are supposed to be looking after it - Boris Johnson and his entitled bunch of snobs, said to someone the other day I would rather the Queen run the country , would at least be more aware of the general public 

The only thing Iâ€™m confident of is this split we have no isnâ€™t going to go away and itâ€™s going to get worse at times 

Imagine we leave and it goes to pot with jobs going , people losing out financially- the backlash could be horrific. Almost tempted to go to Ireland


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 19, 2019)

Under LBJ's worse than May's deal, it is quite simple for any EU national to enter Ireland, bus up to NI and ferry across and enter Scotland/England without the use of a passport.
My local Tory MP refused to deny that this was possible.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So you think your bully the remainers into this deal ?
If we leave without a deal .. which is unlikely as the HoC will not let us and the Benn Agreement accounts for that .. the ERG and Boris will be wholly to blame.
If we remain there will be a minority of hard core leavers - but a majority of level headed people who know that the deal was never going to be great and will either work tirelessly to make sure that we are prepared to leave in the future with a strong position or we remain and influence and control the EU bodies.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s been proven that you canâ€™t change or influence the EU from within.
Just ask Cameron, he got two fingers from them, thatâ€™s why we had a referendum.


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## drdel (Oct 19, 2019)

I think, given MP's desire to keep the ball in play, the Letwin amendment will be passed. Then PM will not call for a vote and it'll trundle on towards 31st. The PM 'may' ask for  a delay and with luck the EU might refuse.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thanks black shirt.
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t think Chris is a Kiwi mate.ðŸ˜


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 19, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Donâ€™t think Chris is a Kiwi mate.ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

They wouldnâ€™t have him, the sheep would object. ðŸ˜„


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## Mudball (Oct 19, 2019)

In other (more) important news.. one from the Leavers doing the rounds


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## Slime (Oct 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Under *LBJ*'s worse than May's deal, it is quite simple for any EU national to enter Ireland, bus up to NI and ferry across and enter Scotland/England without the use of a passport.
My local Tory MP refused to deny that this was possible.
		
Click to expand...

What has the 36th president of The United States got to do with this?
What am I missing?


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## Mudball (Oct 19, 2019)

Snap polls indicate that it might just scrape thru.. 50/50 at the moment


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## User62651 (Oct 19, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Snap polls indicate that it might just scrape thru.. 50/50 at the moment
		
Click to expand...

Run on brown envelopes in Westminster, biggest one reserved for DUP. 
Pay offs galore.


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## Mudball (Oct 19, 2019)

So have the Leavers suddenly fallen in love with Mark Carney??
At first glance the BBC headline is that he is positive about the deal... if you re-read the article about 3 times, it is not a glorious endorsement of the deal. 
But who cares about the details.. I m sure he is the toast of the Leavers Lounge


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## ger147 (Oct 19, 2019)

Letwin amendment carried, 322 to 306.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2019)

So BJ says he wonâ€™t ask for a delay but doesnâ€™t that vote mean he now has to ask for a delay anyway ?!


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## Mudball (Oct 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So BJ says he wonâ€™t ask for a delay but doesnâ€™t that vote mean he now has to ask for a delay anyway ?!
		
Click to expand...

does it matter to him?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 19, 2019)

Think we're into 'making it up as we go along' territory. Again.


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## User62651 (Oct 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So BJ says he wonâ€™t ask for a delay but doesnâ€™t that vote mean he now has to ask for a delay anyway ?!
		
Click to expand...

If he can't do Halloween, I think he may resign ahead of having to ask to extend. Only way he cant ask. Even if he knew that one of the EU countries would veto an extension he still needs to ask first.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 19, 2019)

Well, here's hoping Brussels patience is exhausted, with Westminster, and they invite us to GF&M...


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## ger147 (Oct 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			If he can't do Halloween, I think he may resign ahead of having to ask to extend. Only way he cant ask. Even if he knew that one of the EU countries would veto an extension he still needs to ask first.
		
Click to expand...

His deadline to ask is today not the 31st Oct, so if resigning is his plan wee Liz could miss the Strictly results tomorrow night...


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 19, 2019)

Lying 'Boris' Johnson [LBJ] gutted that his.....if you sign on the bottom line tonight, you get a 20% discount...... tactic fails.

Rees-Moggy stormed off in a strop from his Leader of the Hoose job, leaving HoC future business in disarray.


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## Slime (Oct 19, 2019)

My God, there are some bad losers out there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2019)

I canâ€™t keep up - who are the â€œlosersâ€ at the moment


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I canâ€™t keep up - who are the â€œlosersâ€ at the moment
		
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Everyone


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 19, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Think we're into 'making it up as we go along' territory. Again.
		
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Agreed itâ€™s hard to do anything when they keep changing the rules as they go along.

Absolute farce.


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## drdel (Oct 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think, given MP's desire to keep the ball in play, the Letwin amendment will be passed. Then PM will not call for a vote and it'll trundle on towards 31st. The PM 'may' ask for  a delay and with luck the EU might refuse.
		
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It was predictive...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Everyone
		
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Certainly hard to see who the winners are


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Certainly hard to see who the winners are
		
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Blue passport manufacturers? Political talking heads? GM if they are on some kind of deal where the advertisers pay more for more traffic to the forum?  And I'm sure a few hedge funds have made a few quid betting on the depreciation of the pound. Ditch diggers?


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## Hobbit (Oct 19, 2019)

The Police and Social Services are currently searching for a battered old can that has suffered tremendous abuse and yet another severe kicking. The search is centred around a number of road networks, all leading nowhere.

On a serious note, I'm glad that the Letwin amendment was passed. Yes the clock is ticking, and has been ticking far too long but the amendment, if its there for the right reasons, ensures that Johnson requests the extension BEFORE the deal is approved.

However, listening to a few of the politicians interviewed after the vote, some of them want the delay because its their intention to continue campaigning to overturn the original result.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 19, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185607473933234178


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## spongebob59 (Oct 19, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185608884674859013


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## drdel (Oct 19, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The Police and Social Services are currently searching for a battered old can that has suffered tremendous abuse and yet another severe kicking. The search is centred around a number of road networks, all leading nowhere.

On a serious note, I'm glad that the Letwin amendment was passed. Yes the clock is ticking, and has been ticking far too long but the amendment, if its there for the right reasons, ensures that Johnson requests the extension BEFORE the deal is approved.

However, listening to a few of the politicians interviewed after the vote, some of them want the delay because its their intention to continue campaigning to overturn the original result.
		
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My conclusion is there are many MPs who are simply afraid to make  decision - any decision! They would rather keep kicking it until a decision is made for them so they can claim the 'success' of the non-involved.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So you think your bully the remainers into this deal ? 
If we leave without a deal .. which is unlikely as the HoC will not let us and the Benn Agreement accounts for that .. the ERG and Boris will be wholly to blame.
If we remain there will be a minority of hard core leavers - but a majority of level headed people who know that the deal was never going to be great and will either work tirelessly to make sure that we are prepared to leave in the future with a strong position or we remain and influence and control the EU bodies.
		
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Err!  Are you refering. to me personally for bullying remainers into this deal.  If so change the medication and stop driving.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 19, 2019)

As predicted.. Borisâ€™ deal is rubbish.
You can ask for an extension but 3 years have passed and nothing of value has happened.
As stated previously â€œyouâ€ the voting public, failed to give May a majority in the house. itâ€™s that simple for you lot who could not grasp the comment.
I will not be surprised if article 50 is revoked when no extension is given .. as stated previously â€œno dealâ€ is not on the table the HoC will not do it no one wants to be responsible for that.


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## Foxholer (Oct 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			But do you really think that was the motive rather than kicking Brexit down the road.
		
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I don't mind either way - as it certainly counters any 'evil' action by BoJo. The prorogation of Paliament shows, to me, that he is not trustworthy wrt using every trick in the book to get his deal through - a deal I actually hope will get through by 'normal' means!


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## Foxholer (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			As predicted.. Borisâ€™ deal is rubbish.
...
		
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Please explain what's 'rubbish' about it! At least, within the context of the decision by UK electorate to leave!


harpo_72 said:



			As stated previously â€œyouâ€ the voting public, failed to give May a majority in the house. itâ€™s that simple for you lot who could not grasp the comment.
...
		
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Twaddle! May's deal was simply a rubbish one! The 'voting public' actually had no influence over its acceptance or rejection either!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I don't mind either way - as it certainly counters any 'evil' action by BoJo. The prerogation of Paliament shows, to me, that he is not trustworthy wrt using every trick in the book to get his deal through - a deal I actually hope will get through ny 'normal' means!
		
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A lack of trustworthiness is an atribute worthy of a number of people in parliament. Should be renaimed to 'The House of Slithering'


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			As predicted.. Borisâ€™ deal is rubbish.
You can ask for an extension but 3 years have passed and nothing of value has happened.
As stated previously â€œyouâ€ the voting public, failed to give May a majority in the house. itâ€™s that simple for you lot who could not grasp the comment.
I will not be surprised if article 50 is revoked when no extension is given .. as stated previously â€œno dealâ€ is not on the table the HoC will not do it no one wants to be responsible for that.
		
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If we didnt follow your meaning you probably never articulated it very well.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 19, 2019)

Just been looking at the photos from the march in London today. There seems to have been a lot of older white people in attendance. I thought all the old white people were thicko racists that voted leave.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2019)

I haven't really followed the action today, I've had a lovely day and I didn't want to spoil it. From the little I've read MPs didn't reject the deal, they have passed an amendment that says the PM has to ask for a delay and so the deal almost becomes irrelevant. Is that right? They haven't stated why a delay but they just want one.

Why not allow the vote and simply reject the deal and kill it? It seems an absolute waste of a day.

If I am wrong can anyone enlighten me as to what has happened?


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## larmen (Oct 19, 2019)

How do we go about getting planning permission for a ditch in Westminster near the House of Parliament?


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 19, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So have the Leavers suddenly fallen in love with Mark Carney??
At first glance the BBC headline is that he is positive about the deal... if you re-read the article about 3 times, it is not a glorious endorsement of the deal.
But who cares about the details.. I m sure he is the toast of the Leavers Lounge[/QUOTE

Not really he has got almost every forecast wrong!
		
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## clubchamp98 (Oct 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			My conclusion is there are many MPs who are simply afraid to make  decision - any decision! They would rather keep kicking it until a decision is made for them so they can claim the 'success' of the non-involved.
		
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I agree .
The norm has been ,anything goes wrong blame the EU.
Something goes right take the credit themselves.
Bunch of idiots


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## harpo_72 (Oct 19, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Please explain what's 'rubbish' about it! At least, within the context of the decision by UK electorate to leave!

Twaddle! May's deal was simply a rubbish one! The 'voting public' actually had no influence over its acceptance or rejection either!
		
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Let me explain it.. May was compromised without a majority and had to have an expansive inclusive deal to appeal to a broader spectrum of opinions. Had she got a large majority she would have had greater freedom and would have had more success in her negotiations instead of worrying about appeasing certain groups. Of cause you can dismiss as hypothetical but that would be pretty rash.
Hence the leave Europe campaign was instigated by the Tory party by calling a referendum and in essence they were wholly responsible for its delivery. Those who voted for another party did not realise they were watering down the opportunity to leave- bit short sighted there but understandable. But the key point is the voting public if they wanted to leave should have voted for May. So by not doing so they have blown it.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Let me explain it.. May was compromised without a majority and had to have an expansive inclusive deal to appeal to a broader spectrum of opinions. Had she got a large majority she would have had greater freedom and would have had more success in her negotiations instead of worrying about appeasing certain groups. Of cause you can dismiss as hypothetical but that would be pretty rash.
Hence the leave Europe campaign was instigated by the Tory party by calling a referendum and in essence they were wholly responsible for its delivery. Those who voted for another party did not realise they were watering down the opportunity to leave- bit short sighted there but understandable. But the key point is the voting public if they wanted to leave should have voted for May. So by not doing so they have blown it.
		
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None of that explains what's "rubbish" about the deal.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			My conclusion is there are many MPs who are simply afraid to make  decision - any decision! They would rather keep kicking it until a decision is made for them so they can claim the 'success' of the non-involved.
		
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So if the country economically falls apart ... are you blaming the MPs or will you say it was the will of the people?
Yes they are protecting their careers, Ratner destroyed himself .. so can you not understand they are in a no win  position because you will blame them either way but forget that you have some responsibility.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 19, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			None of that explains what's "rubbish" about the deal.
		
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Fishing quotas, no freedom to negotiate deals to a greater benefit than the EU .. you can find the rest unless your one of these wets who thinks Boris is a great guy and a natural leader...?


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## Foxholer (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Let me explain it.. May was compromised without a majority and had to have an expansive inclusive deal to appeal to a broader spectrum of opinions. Had she got a large majority she would have had greater freedom and would have had more success in her negotiations instead of worrying about appeasing certain groups. Of cause you can dismiss as hypothetical but that would be pretty rash.
Hence the leave Europe campaign was instigated by the Tory party by calling a referendum and in essence they were wholly responsible for its delivery. Those who voted for another party did not realise they were watering down the opportunity to leave- bit short sighted there but understandable. But the key point is the voting public if they wanted to leave should have voted for May. So by not doing so they have blown it.
		
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An opinion that you are entitled to, but my view is that it's a load of twaddle - May's electoral issues aside!
Your second paragraph is particularly twaddlish!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Fishing quotas, no freedom to negotiate deals to a greater benefit than the EU .. you can find the rest unless your one of these wets who thinks Boris is a great guy and a natural leader...?
		
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Two suggestions and then you give up on reasons that the deal is rubbish? Surely if the deal is passed we would have the right to negotiate our own trade deals. Whether they are a greater or lesser benefit than what we currently have as an EU member remains to be seen.

And I'm one of those "wets" that wanted and still wants to remain in the EU but unlike you I'm not a remainer that will stoop to insulting those that voted leave.

Oh, and as you seem to be one of those people that takes pleasure in insulting leave voters perhaps I should point out that it's "you're" not "your".


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## Foxholer (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Fishing quotas, no freedom to negotiate deals to a greater benefit than the EU .. you can find the rest unless your one of these wets who thinks Boris is a great guy and a natural leader...?
		
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The 'deal' had/has nothing to do with fishing quotas! It was/is solely about a Withdrawal Agreement! And I certainly don't think BoJo is a 'great guy/natural leader'! Though he does have a certain 'charisma' (that doesn't appeal to me!)!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2019)

Extension has been requested then I see. 

So will it get rejected


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## robinthehood (Oct 19, 2019)

No, the hardliners in here keep saying they want us for our money. Why would they push us out?


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 19, 2019)

Scenario
I am making a deal with you to leave on 31 oct.
Now that we've made the deal I'll go back and try to get the others to agree it.
But some may try to stop that so they have made a law saying I have to write to you to ask for you to agree to an extension beyond 31st, and so , having to obey the Law, I will do that.
But if we agree now that when you receive the letter, you will not agree to an extension, then when I go back to them a few days later, I tell them that and so  they now have a choice." Vote my deal through, as I've already presented it to you, or go out on 31st with no deal"

Likely scenario, do you think?


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## robinthehood (Oct 19, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Scenario
I am am making a deal with you to leave on 31 oct.
Now that we've made the deal I'll go back and try to get the others to agree it.
But some may try to stop that so they have made a law saying I have to write to you to ask for you to agree to an extension beyond 31st, and so , having to obey the Law, I will do that.
But if we agree now that when you receive the letter, you will not agree to an extension, then when I go back to them a few days later, I tell them that and so  they now have a choice." Vote my deal through, as I've already presented it to you, or go out on 31st with no deal"

Laikely scenario, do you think?
		
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Probably not


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 19, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Scenario 
I am am making a deal with you to leave on 31 oct.
Now that we've made the deal I'll go back and try to get the others to agree it.
But some may try to stop that so they have made a law saying I have to write to you to ask for you to agree to an extension beyond 31st, and so , having to obey the Law, I will do that.
But if we agree now that when you receive the letter, you will not agree to an extension, then when I go back to them a few days later, I tell them that and so  they now have a choice." Vote my deal through, as I've already presented it to you, or go out on 31st with no deal"

Laikely scenario, do you think?
		
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There's always revoke Article 50 as the other option. One that personally I wouldn't be upset by (from a purely selfish point of view), but I'm not convinced that it would do anything to heal the divides that are currently so evident in our society.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 19, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			There's always revoke Article 50 as the other option. One that personally I wouldn't be upset by (from a purely selfish point of view), *but I'm not convinced that it would do anything to heal the divides that are currently so evident in our society*.
		
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Like anything will at the moment..


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 19, 2019)

Was there a Pro Brexit march/protest in London today [Sat]. ?
If so, what sort of numbers did they attract.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 19, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Like anything will at the moment..
		
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No, I guess you're right. But I think that leaving with a good deal would be a good start to healing the divisions. 

And that's not a suggestion that the current deal is a good deal. The main question has to be whether the current deal is the best deal that is available/possible or whether there is a better solution available that respects the referendum result and does the least amount of harm to the UK.


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## ger147 (Oct 19, 2019)

Back to the Supreme Court on Monday no doubt.

Request for extension letter unsigned and accompanied by a letter signed by Boris saying any delay would be a mistake.


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## IainP (Oct 19, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Let me explain it.. May was compromised without a majority and had to have an expansive inclusive deal to appeal to a broader spectrum of opinions. Had she got a large majority she would have had greater freedom and would have had more success in her negotiations instead of worrying about appeasing certain groups. Of cause you can dismiss as hypothetical but that would be pretty rash.
Hence *the leave Europe campaign *was instigated by the Tory party by calling a referendum and in essence they were wholly responsible for its delivery. Those who voted for another party did not realise they were watering down the opportunity to leave- bit short sighted there but understandable. But the key point is the voting public if they wanted to leave should have voted for May. So by not doing so they have blown it.
		
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What's the "leave Europe campaign"?
ðŸ¤·â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤·â€â™€ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ðŸ¤¦â€â™€ï¸


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## Slime (Oct 19, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Certainly hard to see who the winners are
		
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Currently, the EU.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Let me explain it.. May was compromised without a majority and had to have an expansive inclusive deal to appeal to a broader spectrum of opinions. Had she got a large majority she would have had greater freedom and would have had more success in her negotiations instead of worrying about appeasing certain groups. Of cause you can dismiss as hypothetical but that would be pretty rash.
Hence the leave Europe campaign was instigated by the Tory party by calling a referendum and in essence they were wholly responsible for its delivery. Those who voted for another party did not realise they were watering down the opportunity to leave- bit short sighted there but understandable. But the key point is the voting public if they wanted to leave should have voted for May. So by not doing so they have blown it.
		
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Utter cobblers.  The quality of May's deal had nothing to do with the lack of a majority & everything to do with being a confirmed remainer; she wasn't interested in leaving.

If she'd engineered a decent deal there would be no reason for anyone, regardless of party, to vote against it (other than their personal agendas).  Yet a large number of Conservervatives did.  432 votes against it is not a lack of a majority, it is evidence of a dog's dinner of a deal.


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## Mudball (Oct 20, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Back to the Supreme Court on Monday no doubt.

Request for extension letter unsigned and accompanied by a letter signed by Boris saying any delay would be a mistake.
		
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what kind of student politics have we descended to now? Even my local neighbourhood watch and golf committee have more ethics than this


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Was there a Pro Brexit march/protest in London today [Sat]. ?
If so, what sort of numbers did they attract.
		
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Numbers at marches are irrelevant. The numbers who vote are what counts, everything else is just noise.


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2019)

What's going on, are we out yet?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Utter cobblers.  The quality of May's deal had nothing to do with the lack of a majority & everything to do with being a confirmed remainer; she wasn't interested in leaving.

If she'd engineered a decent deal there would be no reason for anyone, regardless of party, to vote against it (other than their personal agendas).  Yet a large number of Conservervatives did.  432 votes against it is not a lack of a majority, it is evidence of a dog's dinner of a deal.
		
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She got a better deal than Boris.. she got the best deal that was going to happen. If you think anything can be improved you are living in Farage land


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## harpo_72 (Oct 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Numbers at marches are irrelevant. The numbers who vote are what counts, everything else is just noise.
		
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Well 3 people doesnâ€™t make a march ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Well 3 people doesnâ€™t make a march ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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No, that's a walk between friends ðŸ˜. 

Brexiteers, in theory, have no need to march, they won the vote and that is all that matters in a democracy, or it should.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Numbers at marches are irrelevant. The numbers who vote are what counts, everything else is just noise.
		
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I don't disagree with that, I was just pointing out the 2nd ref folk had a 1,000,000 folk supporting their cause on the streets of London whilst the Leave folk seemed surprisingly thin on the ground. I would have thought that in the circumstances there would be thousands of them out championing their cause.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't disagree with that, I was just pointing out the 2nd ref folk had a 1,000,000 folk supporting their cause on the streets of London whilst the Leave folk seemed surprisingly thin on the ground. I would have thought that in the circumstances there would be thousands of them out championing their cause.
		
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As I said in my previous post they should have no need to. Why waste a Saturday? The result of the vote  was all that matters.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			.. as stated previously â€œno dealâ€ is not on the table the HoC will not do it no one wants to be responsible for that.
		
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Kindly explain what is so wrong about 'No Deal'!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Kindly explain what is so wrong about 'No Deal'!
		
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Itâ€™s too far into the unknown no one wants take that risk .. hence the Benn Act.
Ask yourself who will take the blame for no deal? Boris is putting on a front but if it happens and it goes wrong, how will he be remembered in history?? And that goes for every one, those wanting it are nowhere near responsible for making that decision. So their opinions are just winding up the idiot hot heads who have not got the capacity to weigh up the odds.


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## Dando (Oct 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't disagree with that, I was just pointing out the 2nd ref folk had a 1,000,000 folk supporting their cause on the streets of London whilst the Leave folk seemed surprisingly thin on the ground. I would have thought that in the circumstances there would be thousands of them out championing their cause.
		
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The leavers have no reason to march as they won the vote. 
Yesterday was just the petulant remoamers having a day out


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s too far into the unknown no one wants take that risk .. hence the Benn Act.
Ask yourself who will take the blame for no deal? Boris is putting on a front but if it happens and it goes wrong, how will he be remembered in history?? And that goes for every one, those wanting it are nowhere near responsible for making that decision. So their opinions are just winding up the idiot hot heads who have not got the capacity to weigh up the odds.
		
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That reply doesn't actually answer my question - apart, perhaps, the first dozen words which describe the dithering politicians as cowards!

To me, the Benn Act merely incentivised BoJo to get a deal done (his words!). Likewise, the Letwin amendment closed the loop-hole that would allow BoJo to enact No Deal by default and ensure Parliament is actually in charge of the process. I'm inclined to hope the EU says 'Non/Nein' to an extension request, thus forcing Parliament to show whether it accepts the deal BoJo negotiated or withdraws A50! If the latter happens, it would be a travesty and I'd be inclined to march (among, I believe a greater crowd than any Remain one) against that decision!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That reply doesn't actually answer my question - apart, perhaps, the first dozen words.

To me, the Benn Act merely incentivised BoJo to get a deal done (his words!). Likewise, the Letwin amendment closed the loop-hole that would allow BoJo to enact No Deal by default and ensure Parliament is actually in charge of the process. I'm inclined to hope the EU says 'Non/Nein' to an extension request, thus forcing Parliament to show whether it accepts the deal BoJo negotiated or withdraws A50!
		
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Exactly.. EU says no to an extension, A50 gets revoked and then the GE will start the process again or We move forward as members of the EU.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Exactly.. EU says no to an extension, A50 gets revoked and then the GE will start the process again or We move forward as members of the EU.
		
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Defying democracy! And at an unbelievable cost!


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## Fade and Die (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Exactly.. EU says no to an extension, *A50 gets revoked *and then the GE will start the process again or We move forward as members of the EU.
		
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If this happens I think the GE would see a Conservative/Brexit party coalition government in power pushing for the hardest of Brexits. Itâ€™s foolish for the opponents of no deal not to vote for this deal.


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## Dando (Oct 20, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			If this happens I think the GE would see a Conservative/Brexit party coalition government in power pushing for the hardest of Brexits. Itâ€™s foolish for the opponents of no deal not to vote for this deal.
		
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No doubt the losers wouldnâ€™t accept that result either ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚


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## MegaSteve (Oct 20, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't disagree with that, I was just pointing out the 2nd ref folk had a 1,000,000 folk supporting their cause on the streets of London whilst the Leave folk seemed surprisingly thin on the ground. I would have thought that in the circumstances there would be thousands of them out championing their cause.
		
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With the majority of Londoners (wrongly) voting remain there's probably no stomach to march in support of Boris in your own backyard...


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## MegaSteve (Oct 20, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			If this happens I think the GE would see a Conservative/Brexit party coalition government in power pushing for the hardest of Brexits. Itâ€™s foolish for the opponents of no deal not to vote for this deal.
		
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Can't see a coalition between Conservative/Brexit parties... A step too far for 'soft' tories I would suggest...


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## User62651 (Oct 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Numbers at marches are irrelevant. The numbers who vote are what counts, everything else is just noise.
		
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People march to protest. That's part of democracy.
Of course numbers matter. The more numbers the more likely you are to get taken notice of and heard. Politicians fear the masses, masses instigate change.
Some places you aren't allowed to march, where freedoms are outlawed.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 20, 2019)

I think they


Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't disagree with that, I was just pointing out the 2nd ref folk had a 1,000,000 folk supporting their cause on the streets of London whilst the Leave folk seemed surprisingly thin on the ground. I would have thought that in the circumstances there would be thousands of them out championing their cause.
		
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they did in 2016 17.4 million of them. But have been forgotten by MPs!


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## Hobbit (Oct 20, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			People march to protest. That's part of democracy.
Of course numbers matter. The more numbers the more likely you are to get taken notice of and heard. Politicians fear the masses, masses instigate change.
Some places you aren't allowed to march, where freedoms are outlawed.
		
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I agree with everything youâ€™ve said but in terms of 1 million marching or 34 million voting, which has the greater relevance?


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## Fade and Die (Oct 20, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Can't see a coalition between Conservative/Brexit parties... A step too far for 'soft' tories I would suggest...
		
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All hypothetical i know but assuming the Conservatives end up with the most seats but not an overall majority and Brexit Party win 15/20 seats maybe more i think the Tories would jump at the chance. No way they not grabbing power.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 20, 2019)

As stated GE will determine next stage .. democracy will be enacted you just have to make decision on the leave you want to get the majority in HoC and the remainers have the libs


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## MegaSteve (Oct 20, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			All hypothetical i know but assuming the Conservatives end up with the most seats but not an overall majority and Brexit Party win 15/20 seats maybe more i think the Tories would jump at the chance. No way they not grabbing power.
		
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They might form a coalition post election... But, can't see them having an understanding, along the lines Farage has suggested, where they don't put up opposing candidates in a number of constituencies...


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s too far into the unknown no one wants take that risk .. hence the Benn Act.
		
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I think a lot of people want to take that risk as they believe it will set us off with a clean sheet.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			People march to protest. That's part of democracy.
Of course numbers matter. The more numbers the more likely you are to get taken notice of and heard. Politicians fear the masses, masses instigate change.
Some places you aren't allowed to march, where freedoms are outlawed.
		
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Hobbit said:



			I agree with everything youâ€™ve said but in terms of 1 million marching or 34 million voting, which has the greater relevance?
		
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Maxfli, I agree to an extent, I was being economical with my words rather than expanding on my point. Hobbit has summed it up though, votes have to mean more than marches. People making noise have to be listened to but votes have to take precedent. 1m marchers can not have greater influence than 17.2m voters.


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## drdel (Oct 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Maxfli, I agree to an extent, I was being economical with my words rather than expanding on my point. Hobbit has summed it up though, votes have to mean more than marches. People making noise have to be listened to but votes have to take precedent. 1m marchers can not have greater influence than 17.2m voters.
		
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Especially when analysis of previous marches has found the actual number to be between 10% and 20% of 'press' claims !


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			Especially when analysis of previous marches has found the actual number to be between 10% and 20% of 'press' claims !
		
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Numbers at marches are usually pretty dubious and best taken with a huge amount of scepticism. There were good numbers there yesterday but the exact number is played with by both sides.


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## Slime (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s too far into the unknown *no one wants take that risk .*. hence the Benn Act.
Ask yourself who will take the blame for no deal? Boris is putting on a front but if it happens and it goes wrong, how will he be remembered in history?? And that goes for every one, those wanting it are nowhere near responsible for making that decision. So their opinions are just winding up the idiot hot heads who have not got the capacity to weigh up the odds.
		
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Speak for yourself, don't tell me what I want or don't want.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			All hypothetical i know but assuming the Conservatives end up with the most seats but not an overall majority and Brexit Party win 15/20 seats maybe more i think the Tories would jump at the chance. No way they not grabbing power.
		
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Brexit party win seats ? They are pretty much UKIP but in a new coat and they couldnâ€™t win any seats so saying they could win 15/20 seems a wild stretch ?

The big coalition could be a Labour/LibDem one - imagine that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2019)

Liking the observation today that parliament, far from working against the will of the people who voted to leave - is actually the â€˜friendâ€™ of Farage, the BP, hard leavers - and the DUP. Because were it not for what parliament did yesterday the UK would today be leaving the EU on basis of BoJoâ€™s deal - a Deal that is quite or totally at odds with the wishes of all of these people and groups.  Clearly Johnsonâ€™s view of a great Brexit Deal is not shared - even by all leave voters.  So much for Brexit means Brexit - Leave means Leave.


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## robinthehood (Oct 20, 2019)

Brexit are not going to win 15 + seats. 
I'd be surprised if they managed 1.
Open goal in the Peterborough by election  and they missed that. 
They won't get many better chances for an MP


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## MegaSteve (Oct 20, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Numbers at marches are usually pretty dubious and best taken with a huge amount of scepticism. There were good numbers there yesterday but the exact number is played with by both sides.
		
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I have spoken to a friend who was in town yesterday... They advised there were no where, in numbers, as many that attended the stop the Iraq war march involved... That was generally assessed as being half a million so no way was there million on the march yesterday...


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			She got a better deal than Boris.. she got the best deal that was going to happen. If you think anything can be improved you are living in Farage land
		
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Perhaps you could point out where I've said Boris's deal is better?  Claiming that May's deal is better than Boris's is like claiming to be the least gammy leper in the colony.

As for can anything be improved upon, it most certainly could be if the House hadn't tied our hands behind our back by taking no deal off the table but Project Fear rumbles on.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Liking the observation today that parliament, far from working against the will of the people who voted to leave - is actually the â€˜friendâ€™ of Farage, the BP, hard leavers - and the DUP. Because were it not for what parliament did yesterday the UK would today be leaving the EU on basis of BoJoâ€™s deal - a Deal that is quite or totally at odds with the wishes of all of these people and groups.  Clearly Johnsonâ€™s view of a great Brexit Deal is not shared - even by all leave voters.  So much for Brexit means Brexit - Leave means Leave.
		
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I believe the essence of the deal is still acceptable to the 'broad church' (it's Sunday after all) that is Leave. I don't believe there's anything in the deal that can permanently tie any part of the UK to the EU - at least none that can't be eliminated.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s too far into the unknown no one wants take that risk .. hence the Benn Act.
Ask yourself who will take the blame for no deal? Boris is putting on a front but if it happens and it goes wrong, how will he be remembered in history?? And that goes for every one, those wanting it are nowhere near responsible for making that decision. So their opinions are just winding up the idiot hot heads who have not got the capacity to weigh up the odds.
		
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So no actual evidence of being worse off, just no guts for the fight from our politicians.  Can hardly say I'm surprised.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			She got a better deal than Boris.. she got the best deal that was going to happen. If you think anything can be improved you are living in Farage land
		
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Er...I disagree! Please explain which parts of the May deal are better than BoJo's one - at least from a 'Leaving the EU' perspective!


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## Slime (Oct 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Perhaps you could point out where I've said Boris's deal is better?  Claiming that May's deal is better than Boris's is like claiming to be the least gammy leper in the colony.

As for can anything be improved upon,* it most certainly could be if the House hadn't tied our hands behind our back by taking no deal off the table* but Project Fear rumbles on.
		
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.................. and for that reason, Hilary Benn should be tried for treason.
Oh, and we should do the same with Letwin, while we're at it.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

Slime said:



			.................. and for that reason, Hilary Benn should be tried for treason.
Oh, and we should do the same with Letwin, while we're at it.


Click to expand...

I believe both Benn, particularly, and Letwin have contributed positively to getting a deal!


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## IainP (Oct 20, 2019)

I was hoping for a HK prediction....ðŸ˜

I don't think the EU gang will politically wish to be seen to be pushing "no deal", so expecting they'll try to tie an extension in with a commitment for UK to have a GE or 2nd Ref.


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## Dando (Oct 20, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I have spoken to a friend who was in town yesterday... They advised there were no where, in numbers, as many that attended the stop the Iraq war march involved... That was generally assessed as being half a million so no way was there million on the march yesterday...
		
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Diane abacus was doing the counting!
Apparently she asked how zeros there are in a Brazilian ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I believe both Benn, particularly, and Letwin have contributed positively to getting a deal!
		
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Thatâ€™s because itâ€™s deal or remain is the only choice now.
So much for choice.

If the people are so much better informed now than 2016 why is NO DEAL not an option.???


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 20, 2019)

IainP said:



			I was hoping for a HK prediction....ðŸ˜

I don't think the EU gang will politically wish to be seen to be pushing "no deal", so expecting they'll try to tie an extension in with a commitment for UK to have a GE or 2nd Ref.
		
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So they are steering our domestic policy.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thatâ€™s because itâ€™s deal or remain is the only choice now.
So much for choice.

If the people are so much better informed now than 2016 why is NO DEAL not an option.???
		
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'No Deal' is still an option!


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:





IainP said:



			...
I don't think the EU gang will politically wish to be seen to be pushing "no deal", so *expecting they'll try to tie an extension in with a commitment for UK to have a GE or 2nd Ref*.
		
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*So they are steering our domestic policy*.
		
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And for precisely that reason, I don't believe they'll do that!


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## Mudball (Oct 20, 2019)

So the new deal now has customs checks on the Irish sea ( I know you will get a refund, but you still have to pay tax).   So effectively, GB has jettisoned NI from the UK.   Well done on the first step to devolution. Interestingly, it has devolved the part of the country that wanted to stay in EU. So at some point in time, NI can devolve itself and stay in EU as it has never left.  

Good day for Brexiteers and Devolvers (if that is a new word)...


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I believe both Benn, particularly, and Letwin have contributed positively to getting a deal!
		
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Please elaborate?


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Please elaborate?
		
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By incentivising BoJo to getting one! He'd have happily taken 'No Deal by default', something he'd already attempted when he prorogued Parliament for 5 weeks!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			By incentivising BoJo to getting one! He'd have happily taken 'No Deal by default', something he'd already attempted when he prorogued Parliament for 5 weeks!
		
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I'm not convinced.  IMO he wanted to use no deal as leverage in getting the EU to open the WA (something they said they would never do) and change the backstop thus preventing the UK from being held captive for an unspecified period, his bluster in saying we would leave what ever on the 31st October seems to have enabled him to achieve this.   I give him credit for doing this even whilst Benn, Letwin, Grieves etc were doing all they could to hamstring him.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 20, 2019)

Slime said:



			Speak for yourself, don't tell me what I want or don't want.
		
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Actually there is a minority in the house who are happy to but they will be okay ... however the majority are not certain.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not convinced.  IMO he wanted to use no deal as leverage in getting the EU to open the WA (something they said they would never do) and change the backstop thus preventing the UK from being held captive for an unspecified period, his bluster in saying we would leave what ever on the 31st October seems to have enabled him to achieve this.   I give him credit for doing this even whilst Benn, Letwin, Grieves etc were doing all they could to hamstring him.
		
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So please explain how his 5 week prorogue of Parliament, only stopped by Miller's court action, would have done that?

Though I agree that it demonstrated his determination at the subsequent negotiations that he was 'forced' into.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185843026930950144
Very good point well made

How long that soundbite been practiced , can't be off the cuff


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## Dando (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185843026930950144
Very good point well made

How long that soundbite been practiced , can't be off the cuff
		
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Silly bint


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			...

Very good point well made

How long that soundbite been practiced , can't be off the cuff
		
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I disagree about 'very good point', but indeed 'well made', or, as you suggest, well rehearsed!


Dando said:



			Silly bint
		
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Going by that comment, I'd suggest she's far less 'silly' than you!


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## Fade and Die (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185843026930950144
Very good point well made

How long that soundbite been practiced , can't be off the cuff
		
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Stupid woman conveniently forgetting that every Election result is respected and enacted upon.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185843026930950144
Very good point well made

How long that soundbite been practiced , can't be off the cuff
		
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So a once in a lifetime event is the same as a GE which is every 5 years or less if the Government calls it early, or a World Cup that happens every 4 years?  Give me a break.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So a once in a lifetime event is the same as a GE which is every 5 years or less if the Government calls it early, or a World Cup that happens every 4 years?  Give me a break.
		
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However if you look at the actual issue rather than rant that it should be respected and out means out. This issue has divided a nation. Proved nothing but problematic .. part of the nation feels let down (leave) part feel lied to and most feel fed up with it all.

She is 100% correct that people should vote when they are informed than when they are lied to.

The fact that 2 replies are either silly women or stupid bint .. rather disrespectful and sexist to someone who's quite respectfully made her point without insults or put downs.

We could learn rather a lot from people like this.


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## Dando (Oct 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So a once in a lifetime event is the same as a GE which is every 5 years or less if the Government calls it early, or a World Cup that happens every 4 years?  Give me a break.
		
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All we needed was a mention of the bus and it would've been a full house in remainer bingo


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## Fade and Die (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			However if you look at the actual issue rather than rant that it should be respected and out means out. This issue has divided a nation. Proved nothing but problematic .. part of the nation feels let down (leave) part feel lied to and most feel fed up with it all.

She is 100% correct that people should vote when they are informed than when they are lied to.

The fact that 2 replies are either silly women or stupid bint .. rather disrespectful and sexist to someone who's quite respectfully made her point without insults or put downs.

*We could learn rather a lot from people like this*.
		
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Yes it teaches us that some people have a massive sense of entitlement, especially if they donâ€™t get their way.


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## Dando (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			However if you look at the actual issue rather than rant that it should be respected and out means out. This issue has divided a nation. Proved nothing but problematic .. part of the nation feels let down (leave) part feel lied to and most feel fed up with it all.

She is 100% correct that people should vote when they are informed than when they are lied to.

The fact that 2 replies are either silly women or stupid bint .. rather disrespectful and sexist to someone who's quite respectfully made her point without insults or put downs.

We could learn rather a lot from people like this.
		
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We could learn to whinge and moan because we dont like the result and will do everything we canâ€™t to get it overturned


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes it teaches us that some people have a massive sense of entitlement, especially if they donâ€™t get their way.
		
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Hello Mr kettle, pot here

Your black 

Seriously


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			However if you look at the actual issue rather than rant that it should be respected and out means out. This issue has divided a nation. Proved nothing but problematic .. part of the nation feels let down (leave) part feel lied to and most feel fed up with it all.

She is 100% correct that people should vote when they are informed than when they are lied to.

The fact that 2 replies are either silly women or stupid bint .. rather disrespectful and sexist to someone who's quite respectfully made her point without insults or put downs.

We could learn rather a lot from people like this.
		
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Does anyone think that she would be objecting to being lied to, as wrong as it is, if Remain had one the day? Of course she bloody wouldnâ€™t. 

For all her self-righteous posturing sheâ€™s nothing more than a whining hypocrite.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			'No Deal' is still an option!
		
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Not for Boris .
Itâ€™s been legislated (Benn act) so it canâ€™t happen, only if by default so I canâ€™t vote for it.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 20, 2019)

Are you scared of a 2nd referendum? 
Deal or Remain.. simple


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Are you scared of a 2nd referendum?
Deal or Remain.. simple
		
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Leave has been done Remain came second.
So any ref should be deal or no deal .

If Remain win we will have another three years of leave complaining and going to court.
So is it best of three /five until the EU / parliament gets the answer they want.


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## robinthehood (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Are you scared of a 2nd referendum?
Deal or Remain.. simple
		
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clubchamp98 said:



			Leave has been done Remain came second.
So any ref should be deal or no deal .

If Remain win we will have another three years of leave complaining and going to court.
So is it best of three /five until the EU / parliament gets the answer they want.
		
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Court for what? If remain won we'd all just move on and get on with our lives and put this whole pointless fiasco behind us.


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## USER1999 (Oct 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Court for what? If remain one we'd all just move on and get on with our lives and put this whole pointless fiasco behind us.
		
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Just like the Scots have?


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Court for what? If remain one we'd all just move on and get on with our lives and put this whole pointless fiasco behind us.
		
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The leave side were not the only ones telling porkies.

Itâ€™s not pointless to 17.4 million voters!


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## Dando (Oct 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Court for what? If remain one we'd all just move on and get on with our lives and put this whole pointless fiasco behind us.[/QUOT

So if remain won, thatâ€™s it game over as you got the result you wanted
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I believe the essence of the deal is still acceptable to the 'broad church' (it's Sunday after all) that is Leave. I don't believe there's anything in the deal that can permanently tie any part of the UK to the EU - at least none that can't be eliminated.
		
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That may well be the case - but the ludicrous situation we are in now finds some Leave voters claiming BoJo is in secret a Remainer. Oh yes. And that BoJoâ€™s Deal is a BRINO.  Too many people lapping up Farageâ€™s rantings about the Deal.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 20, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Just like the Scots have?
		
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I think we are revisiting independence because of the great opportunities leaving the EU is offering them.

As for 2nd ref .. no deal is not being offered unless you want to dilute the leave vote? 
You cannot discount remain because itâ€™s just another form of a deal .. but also you are arenâ€™t being democratic if you donâ€™t offer it ( ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£)


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## robinthehood (Oct 20, 2019)

No you're welcome to keep banging on about EU armies,  taking back control,  federalism, the Lisbon treaty.
Take whoever you want to court, I'm easy.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Hello Mr kettle, pot here

Your black

Seriously
		
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I know you think you have delivered a â€œdevastatingâ€ bazinga their, especially as JamesR jumped in with a Pavlovian â€œlikeâ€ but I really canâ€™t see your point...Ask yourself, have the leavers been acting like spoilt children that didnâ€™t get their own way? Have leavers been changing laws, going against historic precedence, using every parliamentary trick in the book to change the democratic outcome? Pointlessly marching through London pathetically bleating about how unfair it is? No Paul, thatâ€™s your side. The butthurt millennials.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think we are revisiting independence because of the great opportunities leaving the EU is offering them.

As for 2nd ref .. no deal is not being offered unless you want to dilute the leave vote?
You cannot discount remain because itâ€™s just another form of a deal .. but also you are arenâ€™t being democratic if you donâ€™t offer it ( ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£)
		
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So Parliament are undemocratic for taking no deal off the table with the Benn act??


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## MegaSteve (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think we are revisiting independence because of the great opportunities leaving the EU is offering them.

As for 2nd ref .. no deal is not being offered unless you want to dilute the leave vote?
You cannot discount remain because itâ€™s just another form of a deal .. but also you are arenâ€™t being democratic if you donâ€™t offer it ( ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£)
		
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Remain was discounted three years back...


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 20, 2019)

I do not see where the Benn act has removed the possibility of No Deal. 
If the EU do not permit the extension that Boris has sent a letter "asking for", why cannot the Govt leave without a deal?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I know you think you have delivered a â€œdevastatingâ€ bazinga their, especially as JamesR jumped in with a Pavlovian â€œlikeâ€ but I really canâ€™t see your point...Ask yourself, have the leavers been acting like spoilt children that didnâ€™t get their own way? Have leavers been changing laws, going against historic precedence, using every parliamentary trick in the book to change the democratic outcome? Pointlessly marching through London pathetically bleating about how unfair it is? No Paul, thatâ€™s your side. The butthurt millennials.
		
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Sorry but your point is completely pointless 

Leavers have been moaning..organising marches or tours across the country with low turn out

However they haven't needed or wanted to do as much because the result was the one they voted for ..

If as a grown up you can sit there and just go we won that's the end of it then you need to open your eyes and grow up a lot.

As the lady in this video rightly pointed out.. democracy is an ever changing situation not black and white.

If remain had won the outcry wouldn't have been as high for the simple reason of remaining was simple and easy. You stay as you are nothing changes. The country voted leave and it's proved nothing but problematic. Not just because remainers tried to stop it before you harp on , but because it's difficult and might even prove to be more trouble than it's worth .. infact so far it's definitely proved that because it's made the country full of hate for no reason at all. Also the main outcry would have been from farage who would always bang the same drum forever regardless as he is a one trick pony.

The fact that Boris has used the entire situation to make his move for pm and to hell with law or rules just do what he wants isn't at all worrying at all is it. Just because you agree with what he claims he is trying to do it's fine but how long before he goes after something you don't agree with. The NHS for example? I've decided to sell it off to my friend Donald .. what's that you don't want it? Tough titties I've decided to do it that's that ... 

Yes we voted leave in 2016 and that should be respected . However it's now 2019 and we are no closer to leaving than we were 2 years ago. That shows some serious issues all round.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but your point is completely pointless

Leavers have been moaning..organising marches or tours across the country with low turn out

However they haven't needed or wanted to do as much because the result was the one they voted for ..

If as a grown up you can sit there and just go we won that's the end of it then you need to open your eyes and grow up a lot.

As the lady in this video rightly pointed out.. democracy is an ever changing situation not black and white.

If remain had won the outcry wouldn't have been as high for the simple reason of remaining was simple and easy. You stay as you are nothing changes. The country voted leave and it's proved nothing but problematic. Not just because remainers tried to stop it before you harp on , but because it's difficult and might even prove to be more trouble than it's worth .. infact so far it's definitely proved that because it's made the country full of hate for no reason at all. Also the main outcry would have been from farage who would always bang the same drum forever regardless as he is a one trick pony.

The fact that Boris has used the entire situation to make his move for pm and to hell with law or rules just do what he wants isn't at all worrying at all is it. Just because you agree with what he claims he is trying to do it's fine but how long before he goes after something you don't agree with. The NHS for example? I've decided to sell it off to my friend Donald .. what's that you don't want it? Tough titties I've decided to do it that's that ...

Yes we voted leave in 2016 and that should be respected . However it's now 2019 and we are no closer to leaving than we were 2 years ago. That shows some serious issues all round.
		
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So if I understand your post correctly itâ€™s not what you wanted and itâ€™s all a bit difficult and it was a few years ago now so letâ€™s not do it?.... yep thatâ€™s about what I expect nowadays from Gen Y.... â€œitâ€™s too hard and my tech wonâ€™t make it easier for me..... letâ€™s not do itâ€ Heaven help us!


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 20, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I do not see where the Benn act has removed the possibility of No Deal.
If the EU do not permit the extension that Boris has sent a letter "asking for", why cannot the Govt leave without a deal?
		
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But the point is itâ€™s not up to us .
Itâ€™s up to the EU because the Benn act has hamstrung the government.
They have to do it for us .
I just canâ€™t see them doing that!


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## USER1999 (Oct 20, 2019)

Remain is not stasis though. It's not remain and everything will stay the same. It is a very slippery slope. Possibly a very expensive slippery slope that may get even harder to extract from. This idea that all is rosy in the EU is not true. Just ask the Greeks.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 20, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Remain is not stasis though. It's not remain and everything will stay the same. It is a very slippery slope. Possibly a very expensive slippery slope that may get even harder to extract from. This idea that all is rosy in the EU is not true. Just ask the Greeks.
		
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Yes .
One thing that amuses me is the 39 billion bill, we will still pay that if we stay in .
Itâ€™s for our commitments while we were there.
But we wonâ€™t make any more if we leave.


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## drdel (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but your point is completely pointless

Leavers have been moaning..organising marches or tours across the country with low turn out

However they haven't needed or wanted to do as much because the result was the one they voted for ..

If as a grown up you can sit there and just go we won that's the end of it then you need to open your eyes and grow up a lot.

As the lady in this video rightly pointed out.. democracy is an ever changing situation not black and white.

If remain had won the outcry wouldn't have been as high for the simple reason of remaining was simple and easy. You stay as you are nothing changes. The country voted leave and it's proved nothing but problematic. Not just because remainers tried to stop it before you harp on , but because it's difficult and might even prove to be more trouble than it's worth .. infact so far it's definitely proved that because it's made the country full of hate for no reason at all. Also the main outcry would have been from farage who would always bang the same drum forever regardless as he is a one trick pony.

The fact that Boris has used the entire situation to make his move for pm and to hell with law or rules just do what he wants isn't at all worrying at all is it. Just because you agree with what he claims he is trying to do it's fine but how long before he goes after something you don't agree with. The NHS for example? I've decided to sell it off to my friend Donald .. what's that you don't want it? Tough titties I've decided to do it that's that ...

Yes we voted leave in 2016 and that should be respected . However it's now 2019 and we are no closer to leaving than we were 2 years ago. That shows some serious issues all round.
		
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IMO it might be a good idea for those wishing to cancel Art50 to worry about the future of the EU and the UK's position in it when the world markets and threats change. It would be far more coherent  than continually focusing on the wonderful past through rose tinted specs and the current political debacle as a reason the capitulate and hope things in the EU will reform - when we've been trying to encourage that for 20+ years.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2019)

drdel said:



			IMO it might be a good idea for those wishing to cancel Art50 to worry about the future of the EU and the UK's position in it when the world markets and threats change. It would be far more coherent  than continually focusing on the wonderful past through rose tinted specs and the current political debacle as a reason the capitulate and hope things in the EU will reform - when we've been trying to encourage that for 20+ years.
		
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I must say here finally. Finally somebody posts something that is actually well put and thought provoking. Rather than the normal shouting loud as possible Brexit means Brexit and respect the vote.

Thank you 

Not even joking seriously refreshing to read something without an undertone of smugness


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I must say here finally. Finally somebody posts something that is actually well put and thought provoking. Rather than the normal shouting loud as possible Brexit means Brexit and respect the vote.

Thank you

Not even joking seriously refreshing to read something without an undertone of smugness
		
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Try it.


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## robinthehood (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I must say here finally. Finally somebody posts something that is actually well put and thought provoking. Rather than the normal shouting loud as possible Brexit means Brexit and respect the vote.

Thank you

Not even joking seriously refreshing to read something without an undertone of smugness
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Try it.
		
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Normal service resumed 
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£
Oof


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Normal service resumed
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£
Oof
		
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To be fair is it any wonder everyone talks down to each other trying to get one up all the time when the people who run the country do that constantly in the house of parliament

It's just a constant joke to them 

More happy with getting roars from their mates than getting work done


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but your point is completely pointless

Leavers have been moaning..organising marches or tours across the country with low turn out

However they haven't needed or wanted to do as much because the result was the one they voted for ..

If as a grown up you can sit there and just go we won that's the end of it then you need to open your eyes and grow up a lot.

As the lady in this video rightly pointed out.. democracy is an ever changing situation not black and white.

If remain had won the outcry wouldn't have been as high for the simple reason of remaining was simple and easy. You stay as you are nothing changes. The country voted leave and it's proved nothing but problematic. Not just because remainers tried to stop it before you harp on , but because it's difficult and might even prove to be more trouble than it's worth .. infact so far it's definitely proved that because it's made the country full of hate for no reason at all. Also the main outcry would have been from farage who would always bang the same drum forever regardless as he is a one trick pony.

The fact that Boris has used the entire situation to make his move for pm and to hell with law or rules just do what he wants isn't at all worrying at all is it. Just because you agree with what he claims he is trying to do it's fine but how long before he goes after something you don't agree with. The NHS for example? I've decided to sell it off to my friend Donald .. what's that you don't want it? Tough titties I've decided to do it that's that ...

Yes we voted leave in 2016 and that should be respected . However it's now 2019 and we are no closer to leaving than we were 2 years ago. That shows some serious issues all round.
		
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Sounds like you're trying hard to convince yourself that your twisted logic is rational.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Normal service resumed
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£
Oof
		
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Absolutely, you dont hang around with the twaddle, do you ðŸ¤¯


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185843026930950144
Very good point well made

How long that soundbite been practiced , can't be off the cuff
		
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What do we actually know now that we didn't know before the referendum that would justify having another one? 

The EU don't want us/our Â£10 billion a year to leave? Nope we already knew that.

Our politicians (on all sides) are self serving hypocrites that will do anything to get/hold on to power. Nope knew that as well.

The Â£350 million per week claim on the side of the bus was wrong? Nope, that was also highlighted before the vote.

So what new information do we have now to justify holding another referendum? Other than the fact that leaving is a bit difficult and the HoC has been doing its best to stop us leaving.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			However if you look at the actual issue rather than rant that it should be respected and out means out. This issue has divided a nation. Proved nothing but problematic .. part of the nation feels let down (leave) part feel lied to and most feel fed up with it all.

*She is 100% correct that people should vote when they are informed than when they are lied to.*

The fact that 2 replies are either silly women or stupid bint .. rather disrespectful and sexist to someone who's quite respectfully made her point without insults or put downs.

We could learn rather a lot from people like this.
		
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I totally agree with everything - except the bold bit!

It's up to 'people' (especially voters!) to become informed and realise when they are being 'lied to'! Many of the Leave 'lies' were identified as such early on and there were 'lies' on both sides! Leave simply conducted a 'better' campaign imo, and, again imo, it was actually much easier to highlight the negatives of EU membership than the positives. I'd suggest that many of those protesting, actually have some pretty obvious (and even trivial!) 'vested interests' in prefering to Remain. I wonder if she has a nanny, who would likely come from one of the 27!


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## Fade and Die (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I must say here finally. Finally somebody posts something that is actually well put and thought provoking. Rather than the normal shouting loud as possible Brexit means Brexit and respect the vote.

Thank you

Not even joking seriously refreshing to read something without an undertone of smugness
		
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You need to pay more attention then because drdel has been saying the EU is a busted flush for ages.... seriously, not even joking ðŸ™„


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			To be fair is it any wonder everyone talks down to each other trying to get one up all the time when the people who run the country do that constantly in the house of parliament

It's just a constant joke to them

More happy with getting roars from their mates than getting work done
		
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I had a tour around the NZ equivalent of HoC (there's only 1 'House' there) by my MP (he didn't know he was when he offered) and he pointed out that the debating chamber was 'purely the Headline (as in a newspaper story) of the work of Parliament'. Most of the work was done in the likes of Steering Committees and other such meetings, perhaps not even in 'the House'! 

The 2 future PMs I, separately, shared a house with (purely because of its location - a 5 min walk from my workplace; a 5 min walk from Parliament) said similar.

I'm certain that exactly the same applies in Westminister!


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			...For all her self-righteous posturing sheâ€™s nothing more than a whining hypocrite.
		
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Whiner, certainly; 'hypocrite' description would need rather more proof!


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 20, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			You need to pay more attention then because drdel has been saying the EU is a busted flush for ages.... seriously, not even joking ðŸ™„
		
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Not only drdel; others have raised the issues around EU finances for a while.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Whiner, certainly; 'hypocrite' description would need rather more proof!
		
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*Definition of hypocrite*

1: *a person who puts on a false appearance of **virtue* or religion
2: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

Her false appearance of virtue would be saying that we need another vote because we, the people, were lied to and therefore she is standing up for another vote as it's the right thing to do; her real reason for wanting another vote is because she didn't like the result of the first People's Vote, otherwise known as the Referendum., hence her apparent virtue is false.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



*Definition of hypocrite*

1: *a person who puts on a false appearance of **virtue* or religion
2: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

Her false appearance of virtue would be saying that we need another vote because we, the people, were lied to and therefore she is standing up for another vote as it's the right thing to do; her real reason for wanting another vote is because she didn't like the result of the first People's Vote, otherwise known as the Referendum., hence her apparent virtue is false.
		
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Got any actual proof of this or is it just a hypothesis


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



*Definition of hypocrite*

1: *a person who puts on a false appearance of **virtue* or religion
2: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

*Her false appearance of virtue would be saying that we need another vote because we, the people, were lied to* and therefore she is standing up for another vote as it's the right thing to do; _her real reason for wanting another vote is because she didn't like the result of the first People's Vote, otherwise known as the Referendum., hence her apparent virtue is false_.
		
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Re the bold bit...That's not hypocricy to me - simply a poor excuse!
Re the bit in Italics...Quite possible/likely, but I'd still need more proof than you've provided. That's because it's the 'putting on a false apperrance'' that defines the apparent 'virtue' as hypocritical, not simply the 'falseness' of it - which is simply 'erroneous'!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 20, 2019)

Love it you see someone offer up a view different to your own and assume she has a nanny from one of the 27? Really??? 
By the way EU citizens have been provisioned for in both deals .. so really not a motivator. 
Once again silly, very silly.
Now can you remind me why Borisâ€™ deal is better than Mayâ€™s and your willingness to accept it? Or is it just apathy and you want it done and dusted like some home DIY project that is keeping you away from the golf course?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Love it you see someone offer up a view different to your own and assume she has a nanny from one of the 27? Really???
By the way EU citizens have been provisioned for in both deals .. so really not a motivator.
Once again silly, very silly.
Now can you remind me why Borisâ€™ deal is better than Mayâ€™s and your willingness to accept it? Or is it just apathy and you want it done and dusted like some home DIY project that is keeping you away from the golf course?
		
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It doesn't lock us into the possibility of a perpetual ball and chain from the EU, but you know this already and want to ignore it.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Love it you see someone offer up a view different to your own and assume she has a nanny from one of the 27? Really???
...
		
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I presume you are refer to my 'I wonder if...'. That's vastly different from your 'assume she has', which is complete twaddle!

Btw. By BiM's interpretation, you'd be deemed a hypocrite!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I presume you are refer to my 'I wonder if...'. That's vastly different from your 'assume she has', which is complete twaddle!

Btw. By BiM's interpretation, you'd be deemed a hypocrite! 

Click to expand...

Now that is complete twaddle


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It doesn't lock us into the possibility of a perpetual ball and chain from the EU, but you know this already and want to ignore it.
		
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You're right. It's significantly worse than that as it effectively provides a back door to no deal in 2020.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You're right. It's significantly worse than that as it effectively provides a back door to no deal in 2020.
		
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No more than already exists!

May's deal's 'default' was continued control of UK laws etc by EU (even though UK not a member)!
BoJo's deal' 'default' is No Deal, with NI being able to decide how 'tied' it is to EU.

To me, that's sufficient implementation of 2016 Refrendum result to prefer BoJo's over May's!

If Trade and other arrangements ('A Deal going forward') can't be negotiated, or at least seriously under way, by 30/12/20, then there is no hope, imo, of getting a deal done by 30/12/2019!

Huge congratulations have to go to the civil servants involved getting a workable kludge that satisfies the issues the NI'/Ireland border and the Good Friday Agreement posed!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You're right. It's significantly worse than that as it effectively provides a back door to no deal in 2020.
		
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Youve made a statement without justifying it.  Lets see how you come to that conclusion.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Leave has been done Remain came second.
So any ref should be deal or no deal .

If Remain win we will have another three years of leave complaining and going to court.
So is it best of three /five until the EU / parliament gets the answer they want.
		
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Nonsense. The next referendum would have 2 or possibly 3 detailed propositions, any one of which would require no more analysis: Johnson's Deal, Remain, or possibly No Deal (though that's the one thing Parliament have agreed on). The referendum would be binding, and the result implemented the next day. The law would mandate it. 

We now know what Brexit means. Even with the govt refusing to publish its assessment of this deal we know it will make the UK worse off, rather than providing "exactly the same benefits" as promised by the Leave team.

Democracy demands that we simply check what the current will of the people is. There is no 'being fair to the majority' argument when we don't know what the majority want. 

You could argue that, "It would be fair to all of those who voted leave. They won. They should get their â€œvictoryâ€ as it were. Thatâ€™s what they were promised", but that wasn't the deal, that was the spin. The deal, as was legally established at the time and afterward, was that it was a glorified opinion poll. The government informally promised to implement the result, which has caused all manner of confusion ever since. 

But its fairness or otherwise is irrelevant to this conversation. We can Remain and then leave later if we change our minds about it. We canâ€™t Leave and then decide to rejoin. That decision will be out of our hands.

The Leave/Remain decision is not symmetrical, which is why similarly irreversible decisions virtually always require more than a simple majority, and require absolute clarity uncomplicated by the type of different interpretations Brexit is subject to, and the fact that many of them are not for us to determine anyway. 

Democracy is not something you do once and then the same people and policies rule forever. Thatâ€™s dictatorship. With democracy, you re-test public opinion whenever circumstances have changed and, in the case of elections, at regular intervals.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Youve made a statement without justifying it.  Lets see how you come to that conclusion.
		
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Twaddle! 'as it effectively provides a back door to no deal in 2020.' seems 'justification' to me!


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Youve made a statement without justifying it.  Lets see how you come to that conclusion.
		
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I've read the deal. The outcome is no deal at the end of the transition period if the FTA hasn't been agreed . Under the previous deal that TM negotiated, at the end of the transition period the back stop kicked in. With the Boris deal, that has gone, so "no deal".


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Nonsense. The next referendum would have 2 or possibly 3 detailed propositions, any one of which would require no more analysis: Johnson's Deal, Remain, or possibly No Deal (though that's the one thing Parliament have agreed on). The referendum would be binding, and the result implemented the next day. The law would mandate it.

We now know what Brexit means. Even with the govt refusing to publish its assessment of this deal we know it will make the UK worse off, rather than providing "exactly the same benefits" as promised by the Leave team.

Democracy demands that we simply check what the current will of the people is. There is no 'being fair to the majority' argument when we don't know what the majority want.

You could argue that, "It would be fair to all of those who voted leave. They won. They should get their â€œvictoryâ€ as it were. Thatâ€™s what they were promised", but that wasn't the deal, that was the spin. The deal, as was legally established at the time and afterward, was that it was a glorified opinion poll. The government informally promised to implement the result, which has caused all manner of confusion ever since.

But its fairness or otherwise is irrelevant to this conversation. We can Remain and then leave later if we change our minds about it. We canâ€™t Leave and then decide to rejoin. That decision will be out of our hands.

The Leave/Remain decision is not symmetrical, which is why similarly irreversible decisions virtually always require more than a simple majority, and require absolute clarity uncomplicated by the type of different interpretations Brexit is subject to, and the fact that many of them are not for us to determine anyway.

Democracy is not something you do once and then the same people and policies rule forever. Thatâ€™s dictatorship. With democracy, you re-test public opinion whenever circumstances have changed and, in the case of elections, at regular intervals.
		
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Spread over millions the laws of statistics would mean you have two options 'for' and one 'against' so, just by randomness, it would obviously favour the remain slant - which is obviously what the 'second time around' supporters want.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I've read the deal. The outcome is no deal at the end of the transition period if the FTA hasn't been agreed . Under the previous deal that TM negotiated, at the end of the transition period the back stop kicked in. With the Boris deal, that has gone, so "no deal".
		
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I think this is what BJ is playing for. (I hope).  It is really his only choice, he will be finished politically if he does not do this. Plus, I now think that this is what Labour are playing for, so they can say they were all against it, and voted against it, so they did their best to stop it, but the EU let them down by not extending the whole mess.


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## USER1999 (Oct 21, 2019)

Assuming that 'the deal' is an agreement of the terms of leaving, I am not sure what those who want a referendum on deal, no deal, and remain really expect.
Whether deal or no deal, this still does not detail what any trade agreement with the EU would look like. So there is still an enormous amount of uncertainty to come. Is there to be a further referendum on the trade deal? 

Deal or no deal doesn't cut it for me. Until the trade terms are negotiated, I don't see that there is enough information to vote on. The catch 22 being that you cannot negotiate until you leave.


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Democracy is not something you do once and then the same people and policies rule forever. Thatâ€™s dictatorship. With democracy, you re-test public opinion whenever circumstances have changed and, in the case of elections, at regular intervals.
		
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So. following the result of the 2016 referendum result can you tell me what part of democracy HAS been done?


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			Spread over millions the laws of statistics would mean you have two options 'for' and one 'against' so, just by randomness, it would obviously favour the remain slant - which is obviously what the 'second time around' supporters want.
		
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No, because (as I have said before), the vote would be carried out using the single transferable vote system, which gets around the split-Brexit-vote problem and guarantees that all three sides are represented, while also guaranteeing a clear majority for the eventual winner.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			...
We now know what Brexit means. Even with the govt refusing to publish its assessment of this deal we know it will make the UK worse off, rather than providing "exactly the same benefits" as promised by the Leave team.
...
		
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That's no reason to cancel the result because...
   1. The Remain side put that argument and 'the people' still decided to Leave!
   2. There's nothing to stop further negotiation providing equivalent/same benefits from the EU. And other benefits can now be negotiated with non-EU countries.


woody69 said:



			...
Democracy demands that we simply check what the current will of the people is.
		
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Twaddle. To me, it means 'the people, or their elected representatives, decide'. In the case of a Referendum, it's purely 'people decide'; in the case of elections and subsequent government, it's 'their elected representatives' that decide.


woody69 said:



			...
Democracy is not something you do once and then the same people and policies rule forever. Thatâ€™s dictatorship. With democracy, you re-test public opinion whenever circumstances have changed...
		
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But *circumstances* HAVEN'T changed!

While this has been an incredibly long drawn out exercise, there is NO compelling reason - and ignorance/gullability is no compelling reason - for another referendum!


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So. following the result of the 2016 referendum result can you tell me what part of democracy HAS been done?
		
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That's fairly obvious isn't it? People got the chance to have a say and as we live in a representative democracy the outcome of it has been discussed at length, by those chosen to represent us. Now we should be asked how we leave and if the "people" still do want to leave because circumstances have changed.


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			That's fairly obvious isn't it? People got the chance to have a say and as we live in a representative democracy the outcome of it has been discussed at length, by those chosen to represent us. Now we should be asked how we leave and if the "people" still do want to leave because circumstances have changed.
		
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So, the discussion at length negates the need to carry out the original promise that we leave the EU if a majority vote to do so?

 I don't recall any "confirmatory vote" or 2nd referendum being agreed to at the time of referendum,  so what you are saying that purports to be democracy is anything but.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That's no reason to cancel the result because...
   1. The Remain side put that argument and 'the people' still decided to Leave!
   2. There's nothing to stop further negotiation providing equivalent/same benefits from the EU. And other benefits can now be negotiated with non-EU countries.
		
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The idea isn't to "cancel" the result. It is to confirm the result is still wanted.

Re/ #2 if you can honestly believe that further negotiation will provide equivalent/same benefits from the EU then I don't know where you have been for the past 3 years. We are currently members with a significant number of opt outs. We're not going to ever be outside with the beneficial opt-ins we currently enjoy. I also wish I could share your optimism with potential benefits we will negotiate with non-EU countries, however I am not sure we will be in a particularly strong position



Foxholer said:



			But *circumstances* HAVEN'T changed!
		
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They absolutely have. The leave campaign was built on the rhetoric of 'easiest deal in history', People were sold what they wanted to be sold. Norwegian / Switzerland deals were mentioned to get the more moderate people on side. For the anti immigration people we had promises that immigration was going to stop. People were told the EU needs us more than we need them and so we would get an amazing deal which would be better than now etc. etc. This deal has no similarities to these promises, so what about those people who have changed their minds in the light of new facts?


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			Spread over millions the laws of statistics would mean you have two options 'for' and one 'against' so, just by randomness, it would obviously favour the remain slant - which is obviously what the 'second time around' supporters want.
		
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Exactly. Remainers accuse leave of running scared of a second Referendum, but only want a second Referendum if they can stack the vote in a manner that they know will split the leave vote. Utterly pathetic.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So, the discussion at length negates the need to carry out the original promise that we leave the EU if a majority vote to do so?

I don't recall any "confirmatory vote" or 2nd referendum being agreed to at the time of referendum,  so what you are saying that purports to be democracy is anything but.
		
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The flyer sent out by the government wasn't legal text. David Cameron lied to you to win votes, the referendum was advisory and held in bad faith. He made a promise that was completely irresponsible for a load of reasons weâ€™ve gone over for the last three years and more, and which still canâ€™t be resolved to anyoneâ€™s satisfaction.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Exactly. Remainers accuse leave of running scared of a second Referendum, but only want a second Referendum if they can stack the vote in a manner that they know will split the leave vote. Utterly pathetic.
		
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Single Transferable Vote. It really isn't that complicated.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			The idea isn't to "cancel" the result. It is to confirm the result is still wanted.

Re/ #2 if you can honestly believe that further negotiation will provide equivalent/same benefits from the EU then I don't know where you have been for the past 3 years. We are currently members with a significant number of opt outs. We're not going to ever be outside with the beneficial opt-ins we currently enjoy. I also wish I could share your optimism with potential benefits we will negotiate with non-EU countries, however I am not sure we will be in a particularly strong position


They absolutely have. The leave campaign was built on the rhetoric of 'easiest deal in history', People were sold what they wanted to be sold. Norwegian / Switzerland deals were mentioned to get the more moderate people on side. For the anti immigration people we had promises that immigration was going to stop. People were told the EU needs us more than we need them and so we would get an amazing deal which would be better than now etc. etc. This deal has no similarities to these promises, so what about those people who have changed their minds in the light of new facts?
		
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Nobody has changed their minds, nobody knows anything different, nothing has changed, no new facts. 
You ride on fallacies,  fantasyâ€™s and posting twaddle to justify a second referendum. The whole â€œpeople have changed their mindsâ€ bull is so two years ago. 

Just be honest. Tell us you donâ€™t like the result and want it changed by any means possible to end your pathetic tears.


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			The flyer sent out by the government wasn't legal text. David Cameron lied to you to win votes, the referendum was advisory and held in bad faith. He made a promise that was completely irresponsible for a load of reasons weâ€™ve gone over for the last three years and more, and which still canâ€™t be resolved to anyoneâ€™s satisfaction.
		
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You seem to be forgetting the "project Fear" campaign which had even more lies. The promise can easily be resolved to leaver satisfaction, just accept the democratic principal and get the job done by the end of October.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 21, 2019)

Ave I missed  owt ðŸ˜³


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Single Transferable Vote. It really *isn't that complicated*.
		
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I'm afraid it is.

If you've studied how 'large number' statistics and 'standard' error margins work you'll realise that progressive systems like 'transferable votes' are incredibly difficult to design without introducing inequality. The EU has such a system and they're always trying to tweak it !!


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## patricks148 (Oct 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You seem to be forgetting the "project Fear" campaign which had even more lies. The promise can easily be resolved to leaver satisfaction, just accept the democratic principal and get the job done by the end of October.
		
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I'm not sure there was a bigger lie that the bus with 39million a day to the NHS TBH


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Single Transferable Vote. It really isn't that complicated.
		
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We all know that Remain would scream blue murder when they have the most votes in the first round only to see it disappear when votes are reallocated. And thatâ€™s without the next whine that people didnâ€™t know how it worked and ticked the wrong box. 

Why is it that Remain can not accept the result of the Referendum?


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Ave I missed  owt ðŸ˜³
		
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Nope...


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Nobody has changed their minds, nobody knows anything different, nothing has changed, no new facts.
You ride on fallacies,  fantasyâ€™s and posting twaddle to justify a second referendum. The whole â€œpeople have changed their mindsâ€ bull is so two years ago.

Just be honest. Tell us you donâ€™t like the result and want it changed by any means possible to end your pathetic tears.
		
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Are you capable of having a discussion without ad hominem attacks?

If nobody has changed their minds, nothing has changed then what is the harm in asking the question?


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			I'm not sure there was a bigger lie that the bus with 39million a day to the NHS TBH

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But it was well known that the numbers on the bus were incorrect before anyone popped to the polling station. Nigel Farage had made it clear that the message was wrong and disassociated himself from the promise but that the NHS would still benefit from the savings from the EU levy. Also I don't think the bus promised Â£39m A DAY !!


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			We all know that Remain would scream blue murder when they have the most votes in the first round only to see it disappear when votes are reallocated. And thatâ€™s without the next whine that people didnâ€™t know how it worked and ticked the wrong box.

Why is it that Remain can not accept the result of the Referendum?
		
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Nonsense and so what if they did. It would be a legally binding referendum asking the correct question


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			The idea isn't to "cancel" the result. It is to confirm the result is still wanted.
...
		
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Yeah, Right! 


woody69 said:



			...
Re/ #2 if you can honestly believe that further negotiation will provide equivalent/same benefits from the EU then I don't know where you have been for the past 3 years. We are currently members with a significant number of opt outs. We're not going to ever be outside with the beneficial opt-ins we currently enjoy. I also wish I could share your optimism with potential benefits we will negotiate with non-EU countries, however I am not sure we will be in a particularly strong position
		
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I'm certain some sort of trade deal WILL be negotiated, as it's of benefit to both UK and EU to do so.
I can't stop you from being a pessimist!


woody69 said:



			...
They absolutely have. The leave campaign was built on the rhetoric of 'easiest deal in history', People were sold what they wanted to be sold. Norwegian / Switzerland deals were mentioned to get the more moderate people on side. For the anti immigration people we had promises that immigration was going to stop. People were told the EU needs us more than we need them and so we would get an amazing deal which would be better than now etc. etc. This deal has no similarities to these promises, so what about those people who have changed their minds in the light of new facts?
		
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Nor can I stop gullible folk from being gullible!

We were repeatably told the Referendum was a 'once only' choice and that 'We will implement the result'. There was even an overwhelmingly positive in Parliament to do so! To do anything else now would be a travesty!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2019)

Nick Ferrari on LBC often uses the 'divorce' analogy when arguing against circumstances changing supporting a case for a confirmatory referendum. 

His analogy has it that a couple decides to divorce - and that's it.  They divorce.  End of. They go their own ways.

But that is _not_ it.  A couple decide to divorce and their solicitors work with the couple to agree a divorce settlement, and once that is agreed and the couple review the agreement the couple then proceed with their divorce.  Or they don't.  Because it is quite possible that during the settlement negotiations the couple realise the error or their ways - perhaps through pleadings from any children, or when they look at the impact of their separating on themselves; their family; their friends - and in looking at all of that, they decide that it's just not worth it - perhaps that the reasons for initiating the divorce were mistaken or petty - whatever.  In any case.  A couple who decide to divorce, and initiate divorce proceedings, are not required to go through with it.  Circumstances might change; they might change their minds; and they might just decide to call it off and stay together.

Ferrari's analogy just doesn't work.


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## patricks148 (Oct 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But it was well known that the numbers on the bus were incorrect before anyone popped to the polling station. Nigel Farage had made it clear that the message was wrong and disassociated himself from the promise but that the NHS would still benefit from the savings from the EU levy. Also I don't think the bus promised Â£39m A DAY !!
		
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so it was a lie none the less, what where the bigger lies s told by remain?


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			You seem to be forgetting the "project Fear" campaign which had even more lies. The promise can easily be resolved to leaver satisfaction, just accept the democratic principal and get the job done by the end of October.
		
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The Leave campaign ran on a compendium of blatant lies and the Remain campaign lolled about as if they were on the beach and made vague, grandiose statements about catastrophic economic damage, were we to leave. 

The referendum question was blunt, crude and lacking in detail, as if it had been designed to appeal to people's knee-jerk reactions and prejudices. The campaign of one side was demonstrably false and founded in bigotry, full of curved bananas and photographs of Syrians. The campaign of the other side was incompetent and limp, full of hubris and laziness.

The referendum decided nothing that could guide a government in policy terms. We just voted to butt out and left the interpretation of what that meant to warring factions in the Conservative party. What kind of way is that to make a decision that will affect us for generations?


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Nonsense. The next referendum would have 2 or possibly 3 detailed propositions, any one of which would require no more analysis: Johnson's Deal, Remain, or possibly No Deal (though that's the one thing Parliament have agreed on). The referendum would be binding, and the result implemented the next day. The law would mandate it.

We now know what Brexit means. Even with the govt refusing to publish its assessment of this deal we know it will make the UK worse off, rather than providing "exactly the same benefits" as promised by the Leave team.

Democracy demands that we simply check what the current will of the people is. There is no 'being fair to the majority' argument when we don't know what the majority want.

You could argue that, "It would be fair to all of those who voted leave. They won. They should get their â€œvictoryâ€ as it were. Thatâ€™s what they were promised", but that wasn't the deal, that was the spin. The deal, as was legally established at the time and afterward, was that it was a glorified opinion poll. The government informally promised to implement the result, which has caused all manner of confusion ever since.

But its fairness or otherwise is irrelevant to this conversation. We can Remain and then leave later if we change our minds about it. We canâ€™t Leave and then decide to rejoin. That decision will be out of our hands.

The Leave/Remain decision is not symmetrical, which is why similarly irreversible decisions virtually always require more than a simple majority, and require absolute clarity uncomplicated by the type of different interpretations Brexit is subject to, and the fact that many of them are not for us to determine anyway.

Democracy is not something you do once and then the same people and policies rule forever. Thatâ€™s dictatorship. With democracy, you re-test public opinion whenever circumstances have changed and, in the case of elections, at regular intervals.
		
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What a load of utter rubbish.

Democracy; raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result of the vote. Without all 3 there is no democracy. 

The original vote; all the info was out there for everyone to look for. The choice on the ballot paper was leave or remain.

The spin; don't forget to include all the Remain politicians who said a vote to leave was a vote to leave the Single market and the customs union. The choice was as clear as day.

Your comment; "We can Remain and Leave later." How about enacting the result of the vote, which was turned into a law, and Leaving and then deciding to rejoin later.

Your comment; "We can't leave and decide to rejoin." Oh for god's sake stop it. The EU have said time and again the door will always been open to rejoin. Ah yes, but that doesn't suit the rubbish you're spouting...

I'm all for remaining, and leaving (including the 3 years rubbish we've experienced) has cost me a fortune. The future here in Spain for many, especially the elderly, is full of uncertainty and increased costs. I'd vote Remain again in a heart beat but at least lets have the debate with honesty on all sides.


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Nonsense and so what if they did. It would be a legally binding referendum asking the correct question
		
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It is very plain to see that those wanting a second vote are those unhappy with the first. I'd just like a bit of honesty: the simple underlying aim is to reverse the result by hook or by crook.

You seem to continually ignore the truth that any new vote will be biased because there is no correct question(s) to a binary choice on whether the UK stays within the EU or leaves - the Electoral Committee spent a lot of time and money on 'experts' to come up with the original questions. The issue still crystallises to the same dichotomy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184018750565244928


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so it was a lie none the less, what where the bigger lies s told by remain?
		
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Bearing in mind that the Â£350m a week was a misrepresentation of a known fact - as opposed to a prediction that did not come to pass.  Anyone who predicts anything knows that there is uncertainty associated with any prediction - and that uncertainty can increase or decrease in accordance with events subsequent to the initial prediction being made - and these events in themselves having associated uncertainty as to their existence, timing, effect on the eventual state affairs etc.  And so the Gov of the BoE applied measures to mitigate the impact of the vote - the effectiveness of these measures being unknown prior to them being applied.  As it happens the measures were successful in mitigating the impact - at least in the short term.  And hence such as an Emergency Budget was not required.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What a load of utter rubbish.

Democracy; raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result of the vote. Without all 3 there is no democracy.

The original vote; all the info was out there for everyone to look for. The choice on the ballot paper was leave or remain.

The spin; don't forget to include all the Remain politicians who said a vote to leave was a vote to leave the Single market and the customs union. The choice was as clear as day.

Your comment; "We can Remain and Leave later." How about enacting the result of the vote, which was turned into a law, and Leaving and then deciding to rejoin later.

Your comment; "We can't leave and decide to rejoin." Oh for god's sake stop it. The EU have said time and again the door will always been open to rejoin. Ah yes, but that doesn't suit the rubbish you're spouting...

I'm all for remaining, and leaving (including the 3 years rubbish we've experienced) has cost me a fortune. The future here in Spain for many, especially the elderly, is full of uncertainty and increased costs. I'd vote Remain again in a heart beat but at least lets have the debate with honesty on all sides.
		
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Thanks for the reply, but I am not sure why do you have to be so aggressive?

Yes, the EU have said that the door will be open for us to rejoin, but the terms of that membership will almost certainly not be nothing like we have today and just because we ask to rejoin and they are saying we can now, it isn't in our hands is it? We'll be asking to rejoin the club and the club are the ones who decide the terms of that membership. We don't get to walk away, say "sorry we made a mistake" in 10 years time and then go back to how it all is. We will almost certainly have to make concessions.

Also, what you have said regarding democracy, is not the definition of democracy.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			It is very plain to see that those wanting a second vote are those unhappy with the first. I'd just like a bit of honesty: the simple underlying aim is to reverse the result by hook or by crook.

You seem to continually ignore the truth that any new vote will be biased because there is no correct question(s) to a binary choice on whether the UK stays within the EU or leaves - the Electoral Committee spent a lot of time and money on 'experts' to come up with the original questions. The issue still crystallises to the same dichotomy.
		
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It is very plain to see that those not wanting a second vote are unhappy that the original decision may be overturned. I'd just like a bit of honesty: the simple underlying aim is to prevent a reverse of the result by hook or by crook.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say I "continually ignore the truth that any new vote will be biased". You made that statement. Perhaps you can tell me, why a single transferable vote with the various options would be in any way biased


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Are you capable of having a discussion without ad hominem attacks?

If nobody has changed their minds, nothing has changed then what is the harm in asking the question?
		
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No Iâ€™m not, Iâ€™m not much for dithering and waffling. I just do, usually without thinking. 

The harm in asking the question will harm and tarnish any future vote asked of the population. It makes voting a pointless exercise. To even ask the question again screams â€œI donâ€™t like the result, please please let it be the one we wantâ€. 

Iâ€™m all for a second referendum, but then we would also need a third. And these referendums must only be voted on by those who voted in 2016 to actually gauge if anyone actually â€œchanged their mindâ€.


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## bobmac (Oct 21, 2019)

No-one knows what deals we'll be able to get next year unless they've got 20/20 vision


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			No Iâ€™m not, Iâ€™m not much for dithering and waffling. I just do, usually without thinking.

The harm in asking the question will harm and tarnish any future vote asked of the population. It makes voting a pointless exercise. To even ask the question again screams â€œI donâ€™t like the result, please please let it be the one we wantâ€.

Iâ€™m all for a second referendum, but then we would also need a third. And these referendums must only be voted on by those who voted in 2016 to actually gauge if anyone actually â€œchanged their mindâ€.
		
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Yes but three years ago, many people didn't know in reality what Brexit would look like. No one did. We can go on about the myths of people googling the EU after the vote, regretting it instantly, thinking it was just a poll (in some ways more right than they thought) and so on but many people (myself included in some respects) would have admittedly not understood what the impact would have been in reality on things like:

1. The customs union (or what in reality it was)

2. The single market (as above)

3. Foreign nationals living in the UK.

4. UK nationals living in the EU.

5. Northern Ireland/ GFA.

6. The effect on the pound.

7. The effect on pretty much every industry and sector from fisheries to telecommunications.

And there's every reason why people wouldn't have considered or understood the above, because we all have jobs, families, relationships, golf clubs, holidays, financial worries to keep us busy. The above considerations are for MPs to concern themselves with.

Now there has been information out there on what effect Brexit may have on the above, we can make an informed choice/decision. This petty line reasoning of "ooh best out of three" or "17.4 million people voted" or "vote until you get the right decision" is nonsense. Virtually no remainer says that or most likely thinks it.

I would prefer us to revoke Article 50 and get back to addressing the issues that need addressing in this country (of which the EU has never been top of the list). But that is not a political possibility. As such, as deeply flawed as referenda are- it is the only way to square the circle.

I don't know whether remain would win. I would hope so, but if it doesn't and leave wins again then so be it. I am not sure what leavers are worried about if there is another vote- that they don't "win". If by win, they mean win a vote for the sake of doing so when the effects of winning would be to merely brag and the economic benefits of leaving seem at the very best to be uncertain, then that is pretty petty and childish.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2019)

bobmac said:



			No-one knows what deals we'll be able to get next year unless they've got 20/20 vision  

Click to expand...

Should we have rolling referendums throughout the whole process? . One to confirm the first ref was what they wanted after all based on the outcome now. Next up, after the next round of talks, do we get the deal with EU that we want? Next, next, next?

It would be like a Greek fable, we are stuck in a never ending round of talks and referendums with no end in sight


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			It is very plain to see that those not wanting a second vote are unhappy that the original decision may be overturned. I'd just like a bit of honesty: the simple underlying aim is to prevent a reverse of the result by hook or by crook.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say I "continually ignore the truth that any new vote will be biased". You made that statement. Perhaps you can tell me, why a single transferable vote with the various options would be in any way biased
		
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There is a stack of research into the subject and design of surveys and questionnaires if you care to look -  Not worth going off topic here.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Thanks for the reply, but I am not sure why do you have to be so aggressive?

Yes, the EU have said that the door will be open for us to rejoin, but the terms of that membership will almost certainly not be nothing like we have today and just because we ask to rejoin and they are saying we can now, it isn't in our hands is it? We'll be asking to rejoin the club and the club are the ones who decide the terms of that membership. We don't get to walk away, say "sorry we made a mistake" in 10 years time and then go back to how it all is. We will almost certainly have to make concessions.

Also, what you have said regarding democracy, is not the definition of democracy.
		
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Aggressive? Sorry I didn't realise you were so precious.

So from saying we couldn't rejoin you're now saying we can. And that is what really burns my pish. People say one thing but when they're pulled for it they change their tune. Do you know the UK wouldn't be offered the same, or better, terms or is this another assumption based on chicken bones and pixie dust?

Like I said, lets be honest in the debate.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Aggressive? Sorry I didn't realise you were so precious.

So from saying we couldn't rejoin you're now saying we can. And that is what really burns my pish. People say one thing but when they're pulled for it they change their tune. Do you know the UK wouldn't be offered the same, or better, terms or is this another assumption based on chicken bones and pixie dust?

Like I said, lets be honest in the debate.
		
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Can't help yourself can you? Patronising as well now.

You have misread (or misunderstood) what I have written. "WE" cannot decide if we get to rejoin. We can ASK and, yes the EU have currently said we would be welcome, but WE don't get to decide if they actually do let us rejoin. That will be up to the EU to decide if they want us back.

Regarding your 2nd sentence, of course it is an assumption, but a realistic one and based on a little more than chicken bones and pixie dust (what ever that is)


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## harpo_72 (Oct 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Exactly. Remainers accuse leave of running scared of a second Referendum, but only want a second Referendum if they can stack the vote in a manner that they know will split the leave vote. Utterly pathetic.
		
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Pathetic? You have seen 3 years of sorting out your leave deal.
Then when we see the colour of your money you donâ€™t want to have a bet ... cowards


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

Thought I'd repost the Beeb article from last Wednesday. A very interesting insight on the Leavers AND Remainers who've changed their mind.

Somewhat surprised that it drew zero comments last Wednesday - maybe its too uncomfortable reading for some.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50043549


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## robinthehood (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Thought I'd repost the Beeb article from last Wednesday. A very interesting insight on the Leavers AND Remainers who've changed their mind.

Somewhat surprised that it drew zero comments last Wednesday - maybe its too uncomfortable reading for some.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50043549

Click to expand...

Or maybe  because it's as meaningless today as it was last Wednesday


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Can't help yourself can you? Patronising as well now.

You have misread (or misunderstood) what I have written. "WE" cannot decide if we get to rejoin. We can ASK and, yes the EU have currently said we would be welcome, but WE don't get to decide if they actually do let us rejoin. That will be up to the EU to decide if they want us back.

Regarding your 2nd sentence, of course it is an assumption, but a realistic one and based on a little more than chicken bones and pixie dust (what ever that is)
		
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Oh stop it. 3 years of waffle tends to make me a little tetchy when people get all waffly with their version of spin - you say we can't and then you say we can. Make your mind up. Maybe try being a little more accurate with your  posts and say "we can ask..." rather than your original version = *We canâ€™t Leave and then decide to rejoin*. 

Do you think the EU would say no to having the UK rejoin? The proverbial boot would be on the other foot. An economy that currently generates Â£1bn a month net for the EU and you're worried about them saying no. The ECB is on the verge of either having to say no to buying back a whole host of junk bonds held by a significant number of European banks or letting them fall. As Drdel has said many times, the EU finances are in a precarious state, and can only be bolstered by more QE.

The EU will lose 14% of its budget just at the time it is about to issue a new rolling budget that shows an increase in spending and you think the EU will say no or will impose stringent rules for rejoining when they will be desperate for money?


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Single Transferable Vote. It really isn't that complicated.
		
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Nor is the promise to implement the result - and Parliament's subsequent commitment to do so! In fact that's less complicated than STV!


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## robinthehood (Oct 21, 2019)




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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Oh stop it. 3 years of waffle tends to make me a little tetchy when people get all waffly with their version of spin - you say we can't and then you say we can. Make your mind up. Maybe try being a little more accurate with your  posts and say "we can ask..." rather than your original version = *We canâ€™t Leave and then decide to rejoin*.

Do you think the EU would say no to having the UK rejoin? The proverbial boot would be on the other foot. An economy that currently generates Â£1bn a month net for the EU and you're worried about them saying no. The ECB is on the verge of either having to say no to buying back a whole host of junk bonds held by a significant number of European banks or letting them fall. As Drdel has said many times, the EU finances are in a precarious state, and can only be bolstered by more QE.

The EU will lose 14% of its budget just at the time it is about to issue a new rolling budget that shows an increase in spending and you think the EU will say no or will impose stringent rules for rejoining when they will be desperate for money?
		
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OK, I obviously didn't communicate what I was attempting to say clear enough and it has been misinterpreted. That can easily happen when trying to write a post on a forum and doing other things at the same time. I have obviously confused you by saying what appears to be two contrasting statements. 

We can't leave and then simply rejoin at a later point in time. We will have to ask to ask the rejoin. 

Does that help clear it up?

Do I think the EU would say no? Probably not, but I do think the UK would be applying and trying to negotiate admission in an incomparable position to the one in which it secured its current opt-outs from certain EU laws and policies. Other recently joined states will probably be sceptical of special pleading to exempt the UK from the basic expectations of membership, and may not be willing to make concessions that would put the UK back in the position in which it left the EU. The UK might well be put on a fast track to membership if it were to reapply, but that should not be mistaken for one in which too many exceptions from the normal expectations would be made.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nick Ferrari on LBC often uses the 'divorce' analogy when arguing against circumstances changing supporting a case for a confirmatory referendum.

His analogy has it that a couple decides to divorce - and that's it.  They divorce.  End of. They go their own ways.

But that is _not_ it.  A couple decide to divorce and their solicitors work with the couple to agree a divorce settlement, and once that is agreed and the couple review the agreement the couple then proceed with their divorce.  Or they don't.  Because it is quite possible that during the settlement negotiations the couple realise the error or their ways - perhaps through pleadings from any children, or when they look at the impact of their separating on themselves; their family; their friends - and in looking at all of that, they decide that it's just not worth it - perhaps that the reasons for initiating the divorce were mistaken or petty - whatever.  In any case.  A couple who decide to divorce, and initiate divorce proceedings, are not required to go through with it.  Circumstances might change; they might change their minds; and they might just decide to call it off and stay together.

Ferrari's analogy just doesn't work.
		
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You also know he hasn't used it for a while and now rages against people using analogies as he admits they do not work.


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			OK, I obviously didn't communicate what I was attempting to say clear enough and it has been misinterpreted. That can easily happen when trying to write a post on a forum and doing other things at the same time. I have obviously confused you by saying what appears to be two contrasting statements.

We can't leave and then simply rejoin at a later point in time. We will have to ask to ask the rejoin.

Does that help clear it up?

Do I think the EU would say no? Probably not, but I do think the UK would be applying and trying to negotiate admission in an incomparable position to the one in which it secured its current opt-outs from certain EU laws and policies. Other recently joined states will probably be sceptical of special pleading to exempt the UK from the basic expectations of membership, and may not be willing to make concessions that would put the UK back in the position in which it left the EU. The UK might well be put on a fast track to membership if it were to reapply, but that should not be mistaken for one in which too many exceptions from the normal expectations would be made.
		
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Since only 10 members contribute but 18 members take cash and the takers are all East of Germany do you think the EU would refuse a net contributor especially when their expansion add more Eastern members with no money!!! Tis why France, etc aren't happy.


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 21, 2019)

Another deal I really hope we donâ€™t sign up to...

All this uncertainty has done far more damage than staying in/leaving would have done...


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## Dando (Oct 21, 2019)

robinthehood said:



View attachment 28392

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no doubt Mr Fragger will wont approve of this, but you really are a twat


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Nonsense. The next referendum would have 2 or possibly 3 detailed propositions, any one of which would require no more analysis: Johnson's Deal, Remain, or possibly No Deal (though that's the one thing Parliament have agreed on). The referendum would be binding, and the result implemented the next day. The law would mandate it.

We now know what Brexit means. Even with the govt refusing to publish its assessment of this deal we know it will make the UK worse off, rather than providing "exactly the same benefits" as promised by the Leave team.

Democracy demands that we simply check what the current will of the people is. There is no 'being fair to the majority' argument when we don't know what the majority want.

You could argue that, "It would be fair to all of those who voted leave. They won. They should get their â€œvictoryâ€ as it were. Thatâ€™s what they were promised", but that wasn't the deal, that was the spin. The deal, as was legally established at the time and afterward, was that it was a glorified opinion poll. The government informally promised to implement the result, which has caused all manner of confusion ever since.

But its fairness or otherwise is irrelevant to this conversation. We can Remain and then leave later if we change our minds about it. We canâ€™t Leave and then decide to rejoin. That decision will be out of our hands.

The Leave/Remain decision is not symmetrical, which is why similarly irreversible decisions virtually always require more than a simple majority, and require absolute clarity uncomplicated by the type of different interpretations Brexit is subject to, and the fact that many of them are not for us to determine anyway.

Democracy is not something you do once and then the same people and policies rule forever. Thatâ€™s dictatorship. With democracy, you re-test public opinion whenever circumstances have changed and, in the case of elections, at regular intervals.
		
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It sounds like you donâ€™t understand the meaning of winning and losing.
We were told by the PM it would be implemented.
So Remain is out of the equation.
Whatever deal they mash up is fine but we must leave.
If not democracy is dead ,just get on with it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			You also know he hasn't used it for a while and now rages against people using analogies as he admits they do not work.
		
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mmm - I believe I heard him use it on Friday - most certainly he used it late last week as I only mention it now as it was fresh in my mind.   In fact he may have used it today when interviewing Sarah Woollaston.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			so it was a lie none the less, what where the bigger lies s told by remain?
		
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While the number (350m) was wrong (a lie) as it did not deduct the rebate Thatcher negotiated, there was no commitment to fund the NHS from the money saved - simply a 'Lets fund the NHS instead' message!

Just google 'EU bus' to check!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			It sounds like you donâ€™t understand the meaning of winning and losing.
We were told by the PM it would be implemented.
So Remain is out of the equation.
Whatever deal they mash up is fine but we must leave.
If not democracy is dead ,just get on with it.
		
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Our democracy is a representative democracy and our MPs are not delegates - parliament is currently doing exactly what it is designed to do - to hold the executive to account.  Just ask the DUP and Farage and crew - for them our democracy is alive and kicking and doing it's job.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 21, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Ave I missed  owt ðŸ˜³
		
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I would go back to Oz.


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

Bercow strikes again....


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## adam6177 (Oct 21, 2019)

Bercow has refused the vote....wow.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our democracy is a representative democracy and our MPs are not delegates - parliament is currently doing exactly what it is designed to do - to hold the executive to account.  Just ask the DUP and Farage and crew.
		
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And move the goalposts halfway through (Benn act)
Thatâ€™s why the government go underhanded to try and get around it.
Leaving should have been reasonably easy ,itâ€™s our own MPs who have complicated it.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our democracy is a representative democracy and our MPs are not delegates - parliament is currently doing exactly what it is designed to do - to hold the executive to account.  Just ask the DUP and Farage and crew.
		
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While it's doing that, I'm afraid it's (also) doing rather more than that!


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

If I was the EU I'd want shot of this crowd of timewasters at the earliest opportunity.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Aggressive? Sorry I didn't realise you were so precious.

So from saying we couldn't rejoin you're now saying we can. And that is what really burns my pish. People say one thing but when they're pulled for it they change their tune. Do you know the UK wouldn't be offered the same, or better, terms or is this another assumption based on chicken bones and pixie dust?

Like I said, lets be honest in the debate.
		
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We would be welcomed with open arms as long as we are a net contributor.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			While the number (350m) was wrong (a lie) as it did not deduct the rebate Thatcher negotiated, there was no commitment to fund the NHS from the money saved - simply a 'Lets fund the NHS instead' message!

Just google 'EU bus' to check!
		
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Sorry - but 'Let's fund the NHS instead' is pretty clearly an indication by the Leave campaign of what Â£350m/week could be used for.  The Â£350m/week was never there to be used in any way - the figure was a lie.  And so saying Â£350/week could be used to fund the NHS instead was also a lie. The official Leave campaign refused to disown it (Farage distanced himself for his own reasons) - it stayed on the bus and elsewhere - and as DomCumm subsequently boasted it was a critical message in persuading voters to vote Leave.  But water under the bridge.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			And move the goalposts halfway through (Benn act)
Thatâ€™s why the government go underhanded to try and get around it.
Leaving should have been reasonably easy ,itâ€™s our own MPs who have complicated it.
		
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The goalposts haven't moved - they might have got a little smaller as a result of the Benn Act but the government's objective remains exactly the same - leaving the EU.  Now if the governments objective is to leave with No Deal then I agree with you...

Interestingly Speaker Bercow in turning down the vote request for today - has just explained how the government (in the person of Jacob Rees-Mogg as Leader of the House) in it's petulance on Saturday by not going through with a vote as they could have - actually has shot itself in the foot and made things harder for itself.


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - but 'Let's fund the NHS instead' is pretty clearly an indication by the Leave campaign of what Â£350m/week could be used for.  The Â£350m/week was never there to be used in any way - the figure was a lie.  And so saying Â£350/week could be used to fund the NHS instead was also a lie. The official Leave campaign refused to disown it (Farage distanced himself for his own reasons) - it stayed on the bus and elsewhere - and as DomCumm subsequently boasted it was a critical message in persuading voters to vote Leave.  But water under the bridge.
		
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I thought we'd done this debate to death.... 

We could at least try and keep current.


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			I thought we'd done this debate to death.... 

We could at least try and keep current.
		
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In 15,000 posts we've done it to death!


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## Slime (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			That's fairly obvious isn't it? People got the chance to have a say and as we live in a representative democracy the outcome of it has been discussed at length, by those chosen to represent us. *Now we should be asked how we leave* and if the "people" still do want to leave because circumstances have changed.
		
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Another referendum?
If so, the options must be twofold.
A) Leave with Boris' deal or B) Leave with no deal.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The goalposts haven't moved - they might have got a little smaller as a result of the Benn Act but the government's objective remains exactly the same - leaving the EU.  Now if the governments objective is to leave with No Deal then I agree with you...

Interestingly Speaker Bercow in turning down the vote request for today - has just explained how the government (in the person of Jacob Rees-Mogg as Leader of the House) in it's petulance on Saturday by not going through with a vote as they could have - actually has shot itself in the foot and made things harder for itself.
		
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I think Bercow is very wrong indeed. The rules stipulate that the Speaker can refuse to bring something back for a second vote, not that it stopped him allowing May's deal to be voted on 3 times. Johnson's deal has never been voted on. Bercow is bang out of order and needs to go.


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think Bercow is very wrong indeed. The rules stipulate that the Speaker can refuse to bring something back for a second vote, not that it stopped him allowing May's deal to be voted on 3 times. Johnson's deal has never been voted on. Bercow is bang out of order and needs to go.
		
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He's trying to claim it was voted through on Saturday.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - but 'Let's fund the NHS instead' is pretty clearly an indication by the Leave campaign of what Â£350m/week could be used for.  The Â£350m/week was never there to be used in any way - the figure was a lie.  And so saying Â£350/week could be used to fund the NHS instead was also a lie. The official Leave campaign refused to disown it (Farage distanced himself for his own reasons) - it stayed on the bus and elsewhere - and as DomCumm subsequently boasted it was a critical message in persuading voters to vote Leave.  But water under the bridge.
		
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Simply classic spin imo! Connecting the two, but by not actually saying 'Lets use it to fund...', leaving the amount, if indeed any, open! Anyone who believed an extra Â£350 *would* go to NHS was/is, imo, daft!


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## bobmac (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - but 'Let's fund the NHS instead' is pretty clearly an indication by the Leave campaign of what Â£350m/week could be used for.  The Â£350m/week was never there to be used in any way - the figure was a lie.  And so saying Â£350/week could be used to fund the NHS instead was also a lie. The official Leave campaign refused to disown it (Farage distanced himself for his own reasons) - it stayed on the bus and elsewhere - and as DomCumm subsequently boasted it was a critical message in persuading voters to vote Leave.  But water under the bridge.
		
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Foxholer said:



			Simply classic spin imo! Connecting the two, but by not actually saying 'Lets use it to fund...', leaving the amount, if indeed any, open! Anyone who believed an extra Â£350 *would* go to NHS was/is, imo, daft!
		
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Dumbfounded 
Almost speechless
Just can't believe you are still arguing about that dam bus 3 years later.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Dumbfounded 
Almost speechless
Just can't believe you are still arguing about that dam bus 3 years later.
		
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It's used because it typifies so much of the campaign and subsequent 'justifying' demands for a 2nd Referendum!

And and so many MPs are equally deceitful about their motives too!


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2019)

drdel said:



			He's trying to claim it was voted through on Saturday.
		
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I think that its more about not allowing another debate on it which they did do on Saturday, sadly it stops the meaningful vote. These anti Brexit scum politicians need to learn what the constituents can do when the eagerly awaited election finally happens


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

^^^ and can we expect Bercow to find a reason he should stay on beyond 31st Oct to provide smooth continuity?


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I think that its more about not allowing another debate on it which they did do on Saturday, sadly it stops the meaningful vote. These anti Brexit scum politicians need to learn what the constituents can do when the eagerly awaited election finally happens
		
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He's simply applying a very long-standing procedure.

The Government can easily work around the ruling by introducing the (now amended) WA Bill for its 1st Reading - and I believe that's what will happen!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			He's simply applying a very long-standing procedure.
		
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Course he is. The one that insists he does everything in his power to frustrate the Brexit process under the guise of being impartial.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			It is very plain to see that those not wanting a second vote are unhappy that the original decision may be overturned. I'd just like a bit of honesty: the simple underlying aim is to prevent a reverse of the result by hook or by crook.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say I "continually ignore the truth that any new vote will be biased". You made that statement. Perhaps you can tell me, why a single transferable vote with the various options would be in any way biased
		
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If you want a bit of honesty then turn your head in the direction of Letwin, Benn, Grieves, Corbyn, McDonnell and their shabby bunch of cronies and question their motives.  

You are correct that many people don't want the previous vote overturned, why the hell should they, it hasn't been enacted yet.  Your view reeks of 'entitlement' one that says 'I didnt get my way so I'll scream and scream untill im sick'


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Course he is. The one that insists he does everything in his power to frustrate the Brexit process under the guise of being impartial.
		
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As per the 2nd part of my post....

The government can easily work around that by introducing the amended Bill! And Speaker even told them so!


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Are you capable of having a discussion without ad hominem attacks?

If nobody has changed their minds, nothing has changed then what is the harm in asking the question?
		
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So if we have a second one and Remain win, they will of course request another Referendum on a best of 3 basis to ensure fair play, wonâ€™t they...

Yeah, right. ðŸ™„


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## Mudball (Oct 21, 2019)

Nothing to do with Brexit.. but interesting situation with the abortion laws. 
NI govt (the same which in the future will decide on customs/tax and other admin malarkey AND has never met since 2017) could not pull together and pass NIâ€™s abortion bill. So rUKâ€™s laws will now apply. How will that go down with NI government? Will the DUP say sod it to the support or will ask BoJo to decide it for them thru HoC? 
It looks like parts of the withdrawal agreement is proped up by another set of waring kids on the other side of the Irish Sea..


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If you want a bit of honesty then turn your head in the direction of Letwin, Benn, Grieves, Corbyn, McDonnell and their shabby bunch of cronies and question their motives. 

You are correct that many people don't want the previous vote overturned, why the hell should they, it hasn't been enacted yet.  Your view reeks of 'entitlement' one that says 'I didnt get my way so I'll scream and scream untill im sick'
		
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I'll agree with you on Corbyn and McDonnell. For me, the jury is out for Letwin. Benn has been nothing other honest with what he wants all the way through.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			As per the 2nd part of my post....

The government can easily work around that by introducing the amended Bill! And Speaker even told them so!
		
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That wasn't relative to my point. My point is that Bercow is biased and its plainly obvious that he is.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Nothing to do with Brexit.. but interesting situation with the abortion laws.
NI govt (the same which in the future will decide on customs/tax and other admin malarkey AND has never met since 2017) could not pull together and pass NIâ€™s abortion bill. So rUKâ€™s laws will now apply. How will that go down with NI government? Will the DUP say sod it to the support or will ask BoJo to decide it for them thru HoC?
It looks like parts of the withdrawal agreement is proped up by another set of waring kids on the other side of the Irish Sea..
		
Click to expand...

There isn't a NI govt. They've refused to attend the NI Parliament, Storment for x years now.


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## Mudball (Oct 21, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Dumbfounded 
Almost speechless
*Just can't believe you are still arguing about that dam bus 3 years later.*

Click to expand...

Same reason as we are still debating if we are in or out after 3 years..


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'll agree with you on Corbyn and McDonnell. For me, the jury is out for Letwin. Benn has been nothing other honest with what he wants all the way through.
		
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They only admit to wanting to stop a no deal which is untrue.


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## Dando (Oct 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - but 'Let's fund the NHS instead' is pretty clearly an indication by the Leave campaign of what Â£350m/week could be used for.  The Â£350m/week was never there to be used in any way - the figure was a lie.  And so saying Â£350/week could be used to fund the NHS instead was also a lie. The official Leave campaign refused to disown it (Farage distanced himself for his own reasons) - it stayed on the bus and elsewhere - and as DomCumm subsequently boasted it was a critical message in persuading voters to vote Leave.  But water under the bridge.
		
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You should do stand up ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Mudball (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There isn't a NI govt. They've refused to attend the NI Parliament, Storment for x years now.
		
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I know... but they play a crucial role in  BoJos deal as they will have to review border control arrangements every 4 years


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			They only admit to wanting to stop a no deal which is untrue.
		
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You know that as a fact? Benn admitted long ago that he absolutely doesn't want Brexit. Letwin has flip flopped - is he for/against or an inbetweeny at present? The other 2 I wouldn't trust with a school crossing.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I know... but they play a crucial role in  BoJos deal as they will have to review border control arrangements every 4 years
		
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They can only review the border arrangements if they reconvene Stormont - here's hoping they start to do the job they were elected for, i.e. govern NI on a day to day basis.


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## robinthehood (Oct 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So if we have a second one and Remain win, they will of course request another Referendum on a best of 3 basis to ensure fair play, wonâ€™t they...

Yeah, right. ðŸ™„
		
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Nope,  they'd move on and put this sorry mess in the past and get on with the important things in life.


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## Foxholer (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That wasn't *relative* to my point. My point is that Bercow is biased and its plainly obvious that he is.
		
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There was plenty of discussion about that during the session! He countered every accusation rather well.
I trust you mean 'relevant'.
The procedure, preventing repeat discussion of a Bill, has been in use since 1601. The 'workaround' is trivial, but forces the Government to get off their backsides and introduce and push the legislation through - as opposed to a 'simple' vote of acceptance of the WA!


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			It sounds like you donâ€™t understand the meaning of winning and losing.
We were told by the PM it would be implemented.
So Remain is out of the equation.
Whatever deal they mash up is fine but we must leave.
If not democracy is dead ,just get on with it.
		
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It really isn't about "winning" and "losing".

The UK _can _cancel Brexit and ignore the referendum result (not overturn it - it's not even been actioned yet) and society, government and our laws will not be affected. It's ignorance that keep the notion going that we have to "abide by the result". The result is flawed (I won't go into why all over again) and there's no legal reason why it can't be ignored.

As for "potential consequences", short of future voter apathy and general disillusionment with politics and people feeling that they've been ignored (they haven't) I don't see any real consequences to this that won't be positive.

If people understood what was actually happening, if they understood why parliament works how it does, if they understood what parliament's job was - and the media have the ability and power to do this - to educate, then there shouldn't and wouldn't be any "consequences." This undefined threatening notion that if the "result" isn't "respected" society will crumble. It's nonsense - Anyone who says things like "let's get on with it" "we voted already" "leave means leave", "democracy is dead" are too void of the basic understandings of how their society operates to effectively do anything for their "cause". It's bluster. Electoral reform is needed - that's what leave voters should want from this - but nobody is telling them that. It's not in the politicians interests to have an informed electorate - an informed electorate is difficult to lie to.

Still, we're obviously not going to reach agreement on this one, so I'll just make one more point and leave it.

If it was the other way round - that Remain won by 52-48 - and during the next couple of years the UK had announced that Remaining meant adopting the euro and joining the Schengen system, would you think that was okay because they had voted to Remain?

I suspect you would think that because that had not been made clear, the Remain vote was no longer safe. Or would you say "Let's give the euro and Schengen a go and see how it works out" ?

I won't argue with any reply you want to make, or complain if you don't, but I'd ask you to consider that hypothetical situation, because that's how the current situation looks to the likes of me.


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Nope,  they'd move on and put this sorry mess in the past and get on with the important things in life.
		
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Are you thinking of teaming up with Silh and become the new Morecombe and Wise?


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			So if we have a second one and Remain win, they will of course request another Referendum on a best of 3 basis to ensure fair play, wonâ€™t they...

Yeah, right. ðŸ™„
		
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I just can't get my head around this. In a second legally binding referendum, with a vastly more informed electorate, the MPs are arguing for a second referendum, due to the closeness of a vote that most would agree was disinformative, and in the belief that public opinion has changed over three and a half years of political chicanery. But far more important, is that no endgame was ever included in the first referendum and therefore no mandate created for what any leave result would look like. Since that time, the public has been granted greater access to impact reports and better facts and information as to the possible direct impacts of Brexit. Although little actual proof of the direct positive outcomes of any form of Brexit has ever been offered in the last three and a half years, by any on this forum or by any leave proponent. 

If, equipped with these new facts and information, you still vote to leave and join a majority of like minded citizens then fair enough. Farage says that Leave would win a second referendum with an increased majority. What's not to like about that?


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## robinthehood (Oct 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Are you thinking of teaming up with Silh and become the new Morecombe and Wise?
		
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I understand brexit at all costs is your number 1 priority in life. But sadly there really are far more pressing matters to deal with.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Slime said:



			Another referendum?
If so, the options must be twofold.
A) Leave with Boris' deal or B) Leave with no deal.
		
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Iâ€™ve never understood this position, as I wouldnâ€™t adopt this approach in any area of my life. Iâ€™d always review a decision in the light of additional information, and frequently do. Would you not do the same?

Another aspect of that discussion that bears revisiting is that referendums are built into the Swiss political structure. As with the various "propositions" that one sees on Californian ballots in every election, but in a more organised and less populist way, the Swiss incorporated an element of direct democracy - the referendum - into their constitution and made it clear how guidance provided by direct democracy should affect their representative democracy.

We have no such system, no guidance, no clarity and no public history or understanding of the function of the referendum in British politics. Thus, it's no wonder that the referendum result has ended up on a collision course with our representative democracy. Just blaming Parliament for being "undemocratic" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how our representative democracy is set up. Parliament has no clear guidelines for dealing with referendums. Specifically, they have no guidelines for dealing with an advisory referendum that the previous government promised would be treated as if it were binding. It was set up to be a mess, so it's no wonder it has turned out to be a mess.


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 21, 2019)

I would guess if the nation voted now:
No Deal vs Deal - No Deal Wins
No Deal vs Revoke - Revoke Wins
Deal vs Revoke - Deal Wins

You can only please some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time.


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			It really isn't about "winning" and "losing".

The UK _can _cancel Brexit and ignore the referendum result (not overturn it - it's not even been actioned yet) and society, government and our laws will not be affected. It's ignorance that keep the notion going that we have to "abide by the result". The result is flawed (I won't go into why all over again) and there's no legal reason why it can't be ignored.

As for "potential consequences", short of future voter apathy and general disillusionment with politics and people feeling that they've been ignored (they haven't) I don't see any real consequences to this that won't be positive.

If people understood what was actually happening, if they understood why parliament works how it does, if they understood what parliament's job was - and the media have the ability and power to do this - to educate, then there shouldn't and wouldn't be any "consequences." This undefined threatening notion that if the "result" isn't "respected" society will crumble. It's nonsense - Anyone who says things like "let's get on with it" "we voted already" "leave means leave", "democracy is dead" are too void of the basic understandings of how their society operates to effectively do anything for their "cause". It's bluster. Electoral reform is needed - that's what leave voters should want from this - but nobody is telling them that. It's not in the politicians interests to have an informed electorate - an informed electorate is difficult to lie to.

Still, we're obviously not going to reach agreement on this one, so I'll just make one more point and leave it.

If it was the other way round - that Remain won by 52-48 - and during the next couple of years the UK had announced that Remaining meant adopting the euro and joining the Schengen system, would you think that was okay because they had voted to Remain?

I suspect you would think that because that had not been made clear, the Remain vote was no longer safe. Or would you say "Let's give the euro and Schengen a go and see how it works out" ?

I won't argue with any reply you want to make, or complain if you don't, but I'd ask you to consider that hypothetical situation, because that's how the current situation looks to the likes of me.
		
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I think that you're wrong in saying they can ignore the referendum and cancel Brexit - much legislation has passed through Parliament and I'm sure this is now not an option without passing further legislation


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Yes but three years ago, many people didn't know in reality what Brexit would look like. No one did. We can go on about the myths of people googling the EU after the vote, regretting it instantly, thinking it was just a poll (in some ways more right than they thought) and so on but many people (myself included in some respects) would have admittedly not understood what the impact would have been in reality on things like:

1. The customs union (or what in reality it was)

2. The single market (as above)

3. Foreign nationals living in the UK.

4. UK nationals living in the EU.

5. Northern Ireland/ GFA.

6. The effect on the pound.

7. The effect on pretty much every industry and sector from fisheries to telecommunications.

And there's every reason why people wouldn't have considered or understood the above, because we all have jobs, families, relationships, golf clubs, holidays, financial worries to keep us busy. The above considerations are for MPs to concern themselves with.

Now there has been information out there on what effect Brexit may have on the above, we can make an informed choice/decision. This petty line reasoning of "ooh best out of three" or "17.4 million people voted" or "vote until you get the right decision" is nonsense. Virtually no remainer says that or most likely thinks it.

I would prefer us to revoke Article 50 and get back to addressing the issues that need addressing in this country (of which the EU has never been top of the list). But that is not a political possibility. As such, as deeply flawed as referenda are- it is the only way to square the circle.

I don't know whether remain would win. I would hope so, but if it doesn't and leave wins again then so be it. I am not sure what leavers are worried about if there is another vote- that they don't "win". If by win, they mean win a vote for the sake of doing so when the effects of winning would be to merely brag and the economic benefits of leaving seem at the very best to be uncertain, then that is pretty petty and childish.
		
Click to expand...

For all her failings May offered security of residence for EU citizens early in proceedings if the EU reciprocated for Brits abroad; the EU turned her down flat.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I think that you're wrong in saying they can ignore the referendum and cancel Brexit - much legislation has passed through Parliament and I'm sure this is now not an option without passing further legislation
		
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They simply revoke A50


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## Dando (Oct 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Are you thinking of teaming up with Silh and become the new Morecombe and Wise?
		
Click to expand...

Thereâ€™s no â€œwiseâ€ between them


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If you want a bit of honesty then turn your head in the direction of Letwin, Benn, Grieves, Corbyn, McDonnell and their shabby bunch of cronies and question their motives. 

You are correct that many people don't want the previous vote overturned, why the hell should they, it hasn't been enacted yet.  Your view reeks of 'entitlement' one that says 'I didnt get my way so I'll scream and scream untill im sick'
		
Click to expand...

They are doing their job as elected members of our representative democracy.

The other sentence was a facetious one mirroring the statement made by drdel.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			It really isn't about "winning" and "losing".

The UK _can _cancel Brexit and ignore the referendum result (not overturn it - it's not even been actioned yet) and society, government and our laws will not be affected. It's ignorance that keep the notion going that we have to "abide by the result". The result is flawed (I won't go into why all over again) and there's no legal reason why it can't be ignored.

As for "potential consequences", short of future voter apathy and general disillusionment with politics and people feeling that they've been ignored (they haven't) I don't see any real consequences to this that won't be positive.

If people understood what was actually happening, if they understood why parliament works how it does, if they understood what parliament's job was - and the media have the ability and power to do this - to educate, then there shouldn't and wouldn't be any "consequences." This undefined threatening notion that if the "result" isn't "respected" society will crumble. It's nonsense - Anyone who says things like "let's get on with it" "we voted already" "leave means leave", "democracy is dead" are too void of the basic understandings of how their society operates to effectively do anything for their "cause". It's bluster. Electoral reform is needed - that's what leave voters should want from this - but nobody is telling them that. It's not in the politicians interests to have an informed electorate - an informed electorate is difficult to lie to.

Still, we're obviously not going to reach agreement on this one, so I'll just make one more point and leave it.

If it was the other way round - that Remain won by 52-48 - and during the next couple of years the UK had announced that Remaining meant adopting the euro and joining the Schengen system, would you think that was okay because they had voted to Remain?

I suspect you would think that because that had not been made clear, the Remain vote was no longer safe. Or would you say "Let's give the euro and Schengen a go and see how it works out" ?

I won't argue with any reply you want to make, or complain if you don't, but I'd ask you to consider that hypothetical situation, because that's how the current situation looks to the likes of me.
		
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Your point for consideration is not a parallel to the current leave position.  If the vote had been remain it would have been put into effect imeadiatly, the follow on propositions would be considered after the result and subject to further scrutiny.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Dando said:



			Thereâ€™s no â€œwiseâ€ between them
		
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Good one


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			They are doing their job as elected members of our representative democracy.

The other sentence was a facetious one mirroring the statement made by drdel.
		
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None of their jobs are to be devious.


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			They simply revoke A50
		
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I'm sure they cant just do it without legislation to approve it


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			None of their jobs is to be devious.
		
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Why are they being "devious"?


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm sure they cant just do it without legislation to approve it
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47668466


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2019)

Dando said:



			Thereâ€™s no â€œwiseâ€ between them
		
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Silly me, of course, maybe Little and Large


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Why are they being "devious"?
		
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Ive already explained that. They are suggesting their intentions are to only stop no deal when its really to stop Brexit.


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## Slime (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Course he is. The one that insists he does everything in his power to frustrate the Brexit process under the guise of being impartial.
		
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Whilst basking in the glory of hearing his own voice!


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Ive already explained that. They are suggesting their intentions are to only stop no deal when its really to stop Brexit.
		
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Either of those sound like a better option than the deals. 

Should have picked one of those two years ago, right after the referendum even and just got on with it...

I donâ€™t think anyone is for this period of uncertainty, itâ€™s killing the country.


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## Slime (Oct 21, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Silly me, of course, maybe Little and Large
		
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I'd suggest Dumb and Dumber, but that'd be rude.
I have no wish to offend either of them .............................. some others, however!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			Either of those sound like a better option than the deals.

Should have picked one of those two years ago, right after the referendum even and just got on with it...

I donâ€™t think anyone is for this period of uncertainty, itâ€™s killing the country.
		
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The uncertainty wouldn't be there if MPs had accepted the referendum outcome.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2019)

well that was an enlightening last couple of pages , itâ€™s almost as if we are back three years ðŸ™„ 

You can see the split just getting worse in the country- can anyone really see it being fixed regardless of what happens over the next couple of years


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			well that was an enlightening last couple of pages , itâ€™s almost as if we are back three years ðŸ™„

You can see the split just getting worse in the country- can anyone really see it being fixed regardless of what happens over the next couple of years
		
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Yes, just leave the EU like promised and its over.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			It really isn't about "winning" and "losing".

The UK _can _cancel Brexit and ignore the referendum result (not overturn it - it's not even been actioned yet) and society, government and our laws will not be affected. It's ignorance that keep the notion going that we have to "abide by the result". The result is flawed (I won't go into why all over again) and there's no legal reason why it can't be ignored.

As for "potential consequences", short of future voter apathy and general disillusionment with politics and people feeling that they've been ignored (they haven't) I don't see any real consequences to this that won't be positive.

If people understood what was actually happening, if they understood why parliament works how it does, if they understood what parliament's job was - and the media have the ability and power to do this - to educate, then there shouldn't and wouldn't be any "consequences." This undefined threatening notion that if the "result" isn't "respected" society will crumble. It's nonsense - Anyone who says things like "let's get on with it" "we voted already" "leave means leave", "democracy is dead" are too void of the basic understandings of how their society operates to effectively do anything for their "cause". It's bluster. Electoral reform is needed - that's what leave voters should want from this - but nobody is telling them that. It's not in the politicians interests to have an informed electorate - an informed electorate is difficult to lie to.

Still, we're obviously not going to reach agreement on this one, so I'll just make one more point and leave it.

If it was the other way round - that Remain won by 52-48 - and during the next couple of years the UK had announced that Remaining meant adopting the euro and joining the Schengen system, would you think that was okay because they had voted to Remain?

I suspect you would think that because that had not been made clear, the Remain vote was no longer safe. Or would you say "Let's give the euro and Schengen a go and see how it works out" ?

I won't argue with any reply you want to make, or complain if you don't, but I'd ask you to consider that hypothetical situation, because that's how the current situation looks to the likes of me.
		
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Possible candidate for most clueless post of the year. Tell me, do you live in the same bubble as the politicians?


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, just leave the EU like promised and its over.
		
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Won't even be close to being over. We would still have to work out the new FTA. 

The gravity model of international trade is established, remarkably robust, and common sensical: the closer you are to your trading partner, the more trade you are going to do, so we'll want that FTA


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Possible candidate for most clueless post of the year. Tell me, do you live in the same bubble as the politicians?
		
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Excellent retort sir. 

Maybe you can clue me up?


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2019)

The Eu were, last week, using the phrase "free trade agreement" so I dont see it needs to ge a long drawn out affair. I cant see Germany making buying a BMW harder than it is now


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## Fade and Die (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Excellent retort sir. 

Maybe you can clue me up?
		
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Would be a pointless exercise mate. Remainer fundamentalists cannot be converted. You just carry on feeling hard done by and pitying us poor plebs.


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## robinthehood (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Excellent retort sir. 

Maybe you can clue me up?
		
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All you'll get is insults,  and perhaps some rambling guff about Audi and bmw.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Iâ€™ve never understood this position, as I wouldnâ€™t adopt this approach in any area of my life. Iâ€™d always review a decision in the light of additional information, and frequently do. Would you not do the same?

Another aspect of that discussion that bears revisiting is that referendums are built into the Swiss political structure. As with the various "propositions" that one sees on Californian ballots in every election, but in a more organised and less populist way, the Swiss incorporated an element of direct democracy - the referendum - into their constitution and made it clear how guidance provided by direct democracy should affect their representative democracy.

We have no such system, no guidance, no clarity and no public history or understanding of the function of the referendum in British politics. Thus, it's no wonder that the referendum result has ended up on a collision course with our representative democracy. Just blaming Parliament for being "undemocratic" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how our representative democracy is set up. Parliament has no clear guidelines for dealing with referendums. Specifically, they have no guidelines for dealing with an advisory referendum that the previous government promised would be treated as if it were binding. It was set up to be a mess, so it's no wonder it has turned out to be a mess.
		
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just a quick point on the semi-autonomous Swiss Cantons. Around the time of the U.K. referendum the Swiss govt reached an agreement with the EU. They also had to receive approval from the Cantons. The Cantons knocked it back. Itâ€™s a regular occurrence for the Swiss govt to struggle to pass legislation because of a Canton, something akin to the DUP holding the Tories to ransom.

i wouldnâ€™t use the Swiss as a good example of how to run a country.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Would be a pointless exercise mate. Remainer fundamentalists cannot be converted. You just carry on feeling hard done by and pitying us poor plebs.
		
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Pointless exercise, or you just can't? Thanks for making me smile though. I did enjoy the irony.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			just a quick point on the semi-autonomous Swiss Cantons. Around the time of the U.K. referendum the Swiss govt reached an agreement with the EU. They also had to receive approval from the Cantons. The Cantons knocked it back. Itâ€™s a regular occurrence for the Swiss govt to struggle to pass legislation because of a Canton, something akin to the DUP holding the Tories to ransom.

i wouldnâ€™t use the Swiss as a good example of how to run a country.
		
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They are a good example of how to run a referendum though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, just leave the EU like promised and its over.
		
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You really think "its over" when we leave the EU - do you expect the split in the nation to suddenly just disappear 

All those derogatory insults just forgotten , loss of jobs forgotten

Do you really think everything its all going to be sorted when we leave


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Won't even be close to being over. We would still have to work out the new FTA.

The gravity model of international trade is established, remarkably robust, and common sensical: the closer you are to your trading partner, the more trade you are going to do, so we'll want that FTA
		
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Are you aware the UK does more trade outside the EU.  So its important we have as many FTOs as we can.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			It really isn't about "winning" and "losing".

The UK _can _cancel Brexit and ignore the referendum result (not overturn it - it's not even been actioned yet) and society, government and our laws will not be affected. It's ignorance that keep the notion going that we have to "abide by the result". The result is flawed (I won't go into why all over again) and there's no legal reason why it can't be ignored.

As for "potential consequences", short of future voter apathy and general disillusionment with politics and people feeling that they've been ignored (they haven't) I don't see any real consequences to this that won't be positive.

If people understood what was actually happening, if they understood why parliament works how it does, if they understood what parliament's job was - and the media have the ability and power to do this - to educate, then there shouldn't and wouldn't be any "consequences." This undefined threatening notion that if the "result" isn't "respected" society will crumble. It's nonsense - Anyone who says things like "let's get on with it" "we voted already" "leave means leave", "democracy is dead" are too void of the basic understandings of how their society operates to effectively do anything for their "cause". It's bluster. Electoral reform is needed - that's what leave voters should want from this - but nobody is telling them that. It's not in the politicians interests to have an informed electorate - an informed electorate is difficult to lie to.

Still, we're obviously not going to reach agreement on this one, so I'll just make one more point and leave it.

If it was the other way round - that Remain won by 52-48 - and during the next couple of years the UK had announced that Remaining meant adopting the euro and joining the Schengen system, would you think that was okay because they had voted to Remain?

I suspect you would think that because that had not been made clear, the Remain vote was no longer safe. Or would you say "Let's give the euro and Schengen a go and see how it works out" ?

I won't argue with any reply you want to make, or complain if you don't, but I'd ask you to consider that hypothetical situation, because that's how the current situation looks to the likes of me.
		
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So I donâ€™t understand but you do !!!
What a ::.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You really think "its over" when we leave the EU - do you expect the split in the nation to suddenly just disappear

All those derogatory insults just forgotten , loss of jobs forgotten

Do you really think everything its all going to be sorted when we leave
		
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How do you know there will not be more jobs if we leave and according to your thinking we will have the same or even worse split in the nation. Do you expect that to just disappear.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Pointless exercise, or you just can't? Thanks for making me smile though. I did enjoy the irony.
		
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Did you slowly shake your head as you smiled thinking â€œoh that poor fool?â€ðŸ˜†


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How do you know there will not be more jobs and according to your thinking we will have the same or even worse split in the nation. Do you expect that to just disappear.
		
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eh ?

Yes i think the nation will be further split when we leave the UK 

The vote was right down the middle and in the last three years there has been nothing but insults and derogatory comments going both ways 


I asked can anyone see the split be fixed - you said yes when we leave the EU - that satisfies half the country , the half wont go away - the split will be there

This whole complete mess of a referendum from day one has been the most divisive action that i have seen in my lifetime and its caused damage that wont be repaired in my lifetime. 

And if when we do leave on whatever hash of a deal they make and it goes horribly wrong - i cant comprehend whats going to happen


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you aware the UK does more trade outside the EU.  So its important we have as many FTOs as we can.
		
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Indeed. Something like 54% with non EU countries versus 46% with the EU.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-trade-agreements-with-non-eu-countries-in-a-no-deal-brexit 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_United_Kingdom 

Lots to do, considering the UK will have to rearrange a large proportion of those trade deals which currently exist through our EU membership, it may be difficult to secure as good a deal based on the size of our market shrinking from 450 million people to about 65 million. Still, fingers crossed.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 21, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			eh ?

Yes i think the nation will be further split when we leave the UK

The vote was right down the middle and in the last three years there has been nothing but insults and derogatory comments going both ways


I asked can anyone see the split be fixed - you said yes when we leave the EU - that satisfies half the country , the half wont go away - the split will be there

This whole complete mess of a referendum from day one has been the most divisive action that i have seen in my lifetime and its caused damage that wont be repaired in my lifetime.

And if when we do leave on whatever hash of a deal they make and it goes horribly wrong - i cant comprehend whats going to happen
		
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Can you imagine the split if they have another ref and remain win .
It will be magnified several times.


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Indeed. Something like 54% with non EU countries versus 46% with the EU.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-trade-agreements-with-non-eu-countries-in-a-no-deal-brexit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_United_Kingdom

Lots to do, considering the UK will have to rearrange a large proportion of those trade deals which currently exist through our EU membership, it may be difficult to secure as good a deal based on the size of our market shrinking from 450 million people to about 65 million. Still, fingers crossed.
		
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It might be worth noting that there's no growth in the EU at present.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			eh ?

Yes i think the nation will be further split when we leave the UK

The vote was right down the middle and in the last three years there has been nothing but insults and derogatory comments going both ways


I asked can anyone see the split be fixed - you said yes when we leave the EU - that satisfies half the country , the half wont go away - the split will be there

This whole complete mess of a referendum from day one has been the most divisive action that i have seen in my lifetime and its caused damage that wont be repaired in my lifetime.

And if when we do leave on whatever hash of a deal they make and it goes horribly wrong - i cant comprehend whats going to happen
		
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Either:
1) You dont get how a vote works
2)  You know but cant accept it

Also are you:
1) So gullible you believe everything after leaving the EU will be disasterous/catestrophic ?
2) So naive you can't see that today's newspaper is tomorrows chip paper?
3) Not able to tell the difference between what some golfers post on a forum and armageddon?


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## Fade and Die (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Either:
1) You dont get how a vote works
2)  You know but cant accept it

Also are you:
1) So gullible you believe everything after leaving the EU will be disasterous/catestrophic ?
2) So naive you can't see that today's newspaper is tomorrows chip paper?
3) Not able to tell the difference between what some golfers post on a forum and armageddon?
		
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You forgot option 4) All of the above.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			They are a good example of how to run a referendum though.
		
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Mmm, not sure either way on that one. They operate a hybrid direct/representative democracy on a national level covering a number of areas of state law. For example, they had 10 referendums last year. Would you really want to vote for farm subsidies for farmers who don't dehorn their livestock? What a waste of money.

I sort of like they way they do it, especially as the UK's own Parliament could do with a revamp, but would I want to vote on a federal gambling Act or a cycle pathway initiative? And what a waste of money having all those referendums.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Indeed. Something like 54% with non EU countries versus 46% with the EU.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-trade-agreements-with-non-eu-countries-in-a-no-deal-brexit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_United_Kingdom

Lots to do, considering the UK will have to rearrange a large proportion of those trade deals which currently exist through our EU membership, it may be difficult to secure as good a deal based on the size of our market shrinking from 450 million people to about 65 million. Still, fingers crossed.
		
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Tell that to people in New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Canada, Japan etc. Many of the EUs trade deals are with small trading countries.  We can do better as we would be unfettered from their bureaucracy which moves at the pace pf a snail.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Either:
1) You dont get how a vote works  -
2)  You know but cant accept it

Also are you:
1) So gullible you believe everything after leaving the EU will be disasterous/catestrophic ?
2) So naive you can't see that today's newspaper is tomorrows chip paper?
3) Not able to tell the difference between what some golfers post on a forum and armageddon?
		
Click to expand...

Im not sure exactly what point that reply is addressing

I guess you must have your head so far firmly up your own arse you cant see outside your own bubble - if you think that beyond a golf forum everything is all lovely then i pity you , you only have to look at many other areas of social media , in the national news to see this little thread is mirrored all over society - split down the middle, maybe its your arrogance that fails to see it or i suspect the main reason is you dont care beyond yourself and you especially on here are one of the main causes of all the angst and insults


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Im not sure exactly what point that reply is addressing

I guess you must have your head so far firmly up your own arse you cant see outside your own bubble - if you think that beyond a golf forum everything is all lovely then i pity you , you only have to look at many other areas of social media , in the national news to see this little thread is mirrored all over society - split down the middle, maybe its your arrogance that fails to see it or i suspect the main reason is you dont care beyond yourself and you especially on here are one of the main causes of all the angst and insults
		
Click to expand...

I get where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to diminish your point but whether the UK stays or goes do you think staying will stop knife crime or social injustice? I suppose what I'm clumsily trying to point out is the vast majority of the ills in the UK are fare worse and far more destructive on a local level, and has virtually nothing to do with Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Im not sure exactly what point that reply is addressing

I guess you must have your head so far firmly up your own arse you cant see outside your own bubble - if you think that beyond a golf forum everything is all lovely then i pity you , you only have to look at many other areas of social media , in the national news to see this little thread is mirrored all over society - split down the middle, maybe its your arrogance that fails to see it or i suspect the main reason is you dont care beyond yourself and you especially on here are one of the main causes of all the angst and insults
		
Click to expand...

Il'l repair six pitch marks and replace three divots in recompense for challenging your predictions of fire and brimstone on us all.  

PS. Didn't know there was a bubble up my arse


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## robinthehood (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I get where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to diminish your point but whether the UK stays or goes do you think staying will stop knife crime or social injustice? I suppose what I'm clumsily trying to point out is the vast majority of the ills in the UK are fare worse and far more destructive on a local level, and has virtually nothing to do with Brexit.
		
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No it won't,  but We've wasted 3 years chasing some ridiculous intangible dream ,when we could have been making those things the priority  they should be.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I get where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to diminish your point but whether the UK stays or goes do you think staying will stop knife crime or social injustice? I suppose what I'm clumsily trying to point out is the vast majority of the ills in the UK are fare worse and far more destructive on a local level, and has virtually nothing to do with Brexit.
		
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Trust me I understand that there are many issues within the UK that need to be dealt with - and for me a lot of those issues are down to the governments over the past 20 years - from bankrupting the country , to allowing people to earn more on benefits , to increasing the huge debt , to austerity measures which have ripped apart the social services including crucial policing.

Labour then Tory have imo have a lot to answer for - Brexit is the cherry on top - the water being poured down the cracks to open them up more. I dread to think what the future will be like


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The uncertainty wouldn't be there if MPs had accepted the referendum outcome.
		
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Thatâ€™s what I said right?


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Trust me I understand that there are many issues within the UK that need to be dealt with - and for me a lot of those issues are down to the governments over the past 20 years - from bankrupting the country , to allowing people to earn more on benefits , to increasing the huge debt , to austerity measures which have ripped apart the social services including crucial policing.

Labour then Tory have imo have a lot to answer for - Brexit is the cherry on top - the water being poured down the cracks to open them up more. I dread to think what the future will be like
		
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Just a rhetorical question for you to ponder; what if Brexit actually improves things? The govt of the day, Lab/Tory/whatever won't need EU approval for subsidies or be limited in their trade deals or tariffs. Not saying you're wrong but, equally, not saying you're right either. Maybe a fundamental change is needed, and maybe Brexit is it...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just a rhetorical question for you to ponder; what if Brexit actually improves things? The govt of the day, Lab/Tory/whatever won't need EU approval for subsidies or be limited in their trade deals or tariffs. Not saying you're wrong but, equally, not saying you're right either. Maybe a fundamental change is needed, and maybe Brexit is it...
		
Click to expand...

If it does then I hope we all see the benefit of it and I hope that itâ€™s all done with grace. 
Maybe a big change was needed - the issue for me is that the big change is being looked after by people whose sole aim seems to be self preservation and a lack of caring of the effects itâ€™s having for the country. 

right now I see the rich getting richer , and everyone else being shafted


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No it won't,  but We've wasted 3 years chasing some ridiculous intangible dream ,when we could have been making those things the priority  they should be.
		
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If people would have kept their promise and accepted the peoples vote it would have been all over and we could have made those priorities.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			PS. Didn't know there was a bubble up my arse
		
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I'd speak to the doctor. Might be infectious


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## drdel (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just a rhetorical question for you to ponder; what if Brexit actually improves things? The govt of the day, Lab/Tory/whatever won't need EU approval for subsidies or be limited in their trade deals or tariffs. Not saying you're wrong but, equally, not saying you're right either. Maybe a fundamental change is needed, and maybe Brexit is it...
		
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Bang on. The EU has become insular.  It's lack of growth and the better opportunities in the new economies means investors etc are not going to beat a path to their door. All the EU is fixated with is redistributing wealth of western members to the south and east, a race to the bottom as many in Germany are beginning to realise.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If it does then I hope we all see the benefit of it and I hope that itâ€™s all done with grace.
Maybe a big change was needed - the issue for me is that the big change is being looked after by people whose sole aim seems to be self preservation and a lack of caring of the effects itâ€™s having for the country.

right now I see the rich getting richer , and everyone else being shafted
		
Click to expand...

And that's where the ballot box comes in. The man in the street has very little power, individually, but there's enough failed politicians been cast adrift in the wilderness to show that if a political party gets it drastically wrong many of them lose their job. Not all but some, and the same applies to businessmen too. Jeffrey Archer, Neil Hamilton to name just 2. And sometimes its just the label of failure that crucifies them. Tony Blair hasn't taken to the wilderness at all well and still chases centre stage. He'll never lose his wealth but can you name another politician so detested long after they're out of office.

As for society as a whole; it won't change much either way. A new broom might address some of the lawlessness on the streets or some of the issues in the NHS. And they are hamstrung in having to do that, or they won't get elected/re-elected. Armageddon isn't just around the corner.


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## woody69 (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, not sure either way on that one. They operate a hybrid direct/representative democracy on a national level covering a number of areas of state law. For example, they had 10 referendums last year. Would you really want to vote for farm subsidies for farmers who don't dehorn their livestock? What a waste of money.

I sort of like they way they do it, especially as the UK's own Parliament could do with a revamp, but would I want to vote on a federal gambling Act or a cycle pathway initiative? And what a waste of money having all those referendums.
		
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No, I'm not suggesting we copy their model, just stating in terms of how a referendum should be run properly. It's a moot point and more akin to closing the barn door after the horse has bolted, but that was all I was trying to say.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I'd speak to the doctor. Might be infectious
		
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Anus horribilous.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			And that's where the ballot box comes in. The man in the street has very little power, individually, but there's enough failed politicians been cast adrift in the wilderness to show that if a political party gets it drastically wrong many of them lose their job. Not all but some, and the same applies to businessmen too. Jeffrey Archer, Neil Hamilton to name just 2. And sometimes its just the label of failure that crucifies them. Tony Blair hasn't taken to the wilderness at all well and still chases centre stage. He'll never lose his wealth but can you name another politician so detested long after they're out of office.

As for society as a whole; it won't change much either way. A new broom might address some of the lawlessness on the streets or some of the issues in the NHS. And they are hamstrung in having to do that, or they won't get elected/re-elected. Armageddon isn't just around the corner.
		
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But if MPs donâ€™t do what we voted for in the ref the people will lose faith in the system.
Thatâ€™s very worrying.


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## JamesR (Oct 21, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I know you think you have delivered a â€œdevastatingâ€ bazinga their, especially as JamesR jumped in with a Pavlovian â€œlikeâ€ but I really canâ€™t see your point...Ask yourself, have the leavers been acting like spoilt children that didnâ€™t get their own way? Have leavers been changing laws, going against historic precedence, using every parliamentary trick in the book to change the democratic outcome? Pointlessly marching through London pathetically bleating about how unfair it is? No Paul, thatâ€™s your side. The butthurt millennials.
		
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What exactly is a millennial.
Someone born at the turn of the century?


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			But if MPs donâ€™t do what we voted for in the ref the people will lose faith in the system.
Thatâ€™s very worrying.
		
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I think that might apply to only half of the voting public. Also, I think that many people's faith is long since shattered. If it was over 70% of the electorate that voted in the referendum, and half of them might feel disenfranchised you're left with a pretty low turnout at the next GE... or maybe because it will be fought around the Brexit issue there might still be a good turnout.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 21, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19300051

These MPs very close to Brexit , some in the cabinate 

They want the workers rights bill scraped. The deal would be pass with the workers bill in but a few key people want it out to really shake up workers rights.

In the book they look at America and say they have 10 days holiday a year that's it. Nobody should have more. Except them of course 

People can bang on about out means out and respect the vote but if your really happy to have workers rights eroded and go back to the dark ages then good for you. It's blooming crazy.

It all seems to be pointing to a general election .. hopefully Corbyn is more self aware than people think and will step aside and let labour be saved by someone people can get behind rather than someone who is just a career protest politician


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think that might apply to only half of the voting public. Also, I think that many people's faith is long since shattered. If it was over 70% of the electorate that voted in the referendum, and half of them might feel disenfranchised you're left with a pretty low turnout at the next GE... or maybe because it will be fought around the Brexit issue there might still be a good turnout.
		
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Yes I think your right.
But it will be my last vote if they overturn the vote.
Itâ€™s not worth it if they just donâ€™t do what hey are told by the majority.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19300051

These MPs very close to Brexit , some in the cabinate

They want the workers rights bill scraped. The deal would be pass with the workers bill in but a few key people want it out to really shake up workers rights.

In the book they look at America and say they have 10 days holiday a year that's it. Nobody should have more. Except them of course

People can bang on about out means out and respect the vote but if your really happy to have workers rights eroded and go back to the dark ages then good for you. It's blooming crazy.

It all seems to be pointing to a general election .. hopefully Corbyn is more self aware than people think and will step aside and let labour be saved by someone people can get behind rather than someone who is just a career protest politician
		
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Sorry but that's just laughable, up there with pastie tax.

5 MP's write a book and 3 cabinet ministers also contribute to it, and you believe it might end up being law. There's fringe groups in every party, the Tories having plenty of them, but there's no way any of that will happen. 10 days holiday!?!? Expect a revolt along the lines of the Poll Tax demonstrations if that gets anywhere near the statute books. 

It would be political suicide and drive a significant number of Tory supporters to vote Labour.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry but that's just laughable, up there with pastie tax.

5 MP's write a book and 3 cabinet ministers also contribute to it, and you believe it might end up being law. There's fringe groups in every party, the Tories having plenty of them, but there's no way any of that will happen. 10 days holiday!?!? Expect a revolt along the lines of the Poll Tax demonstrations if that gets anywhere near the statute books.

It would be political suicide and drive a significant number of Tory supporters to vote Labour.
		
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-50096400

Why leave it out the deal rather than protect it along with other things? 

Boris' amazing deal , which is the exact deal we were offered 3 years ago, is somehow worse than Mays deal that he voted down but he just wants to be the pm who got Brexit done. Boris the super pm

So super that he has not won a single vote in the house of parliament yet. Everything gets voted down.

Blokes a clown and only interested in himself


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19300051

These MPs very close to Brexit , some in the cabinate

They want the workers rights bill scraped. The deal would be pass with the workers bill in but a few key people want it out to really shake up workers rights.

In the book they look at America and say they have 10 days holiday a year that's it. Nobody should have more. Except them of course

People can bang on about out means out and respect the vote but if your really happy to have workers rights eroded and go back to the dark ages then good for you. It's blooming crazy.

It all seems to be pointing to a general election .. hopefully Corbyn is more self aware than people think and will step aside and let labour be saved by someone people can get behind rather than someone who is just a career protest politician
		
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Do you honestly believe that twaddle and do you think we need other countries controlling our employment laws? We are quite capable of governing ourselves and if you look back through history many of the great improvements in peoples welfare were made by people in this country pushing for them.  As previously said it would be political suicide for a party to bring in 10 days holiday or similar changes.  This talk is just another attempt by Corbyn and his mates to derail brexit and shoe himself into No 10.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly believe that twaddle and do you think we need other countries controlling our employment laws? We are quite capable of governing ourselves and if you look back through history many of the great improvements in peoples welfare were made by people in this country pushing for them.  As previously said it would be political suicide for a party to bring in 10 days holiday or similar changes.  This talk is just another attempt by Corbyn and his mates to derail brexit and shoe himself into No 10.
		
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Corbyn doesn't want the number 10 job
Be is a career protest politician who was bullied into the leadership race and won.

He wouldnt know what to do in office

Who says it's twoddle? You? I'm sorry but there are so many more respected opinions worth listening to before some self proclaimed expert on Brexit and politics in general


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Corbyn doesn't want the number 10 job
Be is a career protest politician who was bullied into the leadership race and won.

He wouldnt know what to do in office

Who says it's twoddle? You? I'm sorry but there are so many more respected opinions worth listening to before some self proclaimed expert on Brexit and politics in general
		
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Look to yourself matey. You are the one going off half cocked and spouting an ill thought through diatribe.  Try engaging your brain before using the keyboard ðŸ™„


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-50096400

Why leave it out the deal rather than protect it along with other things?

Boris' amazing deal , which is the exact deal we were offered 3 years ago, is somehow worse than Mays deal that he voted down but he just wants to be the pm who got Brexit done. Boris the super pm

So super that he has not won a single vote in the house of parliament yet. Everything gets voted down.

Blokes a clown and only interested in himself
		
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What "exact same deal" from 3 years ago? Article 50 hadn't even been triggered 3 years ago? What on earth are you on about? As for Boris not winning a vote; of course he hasn't, he hasn't got a majority. 

I think the only thing of any relevance in your post is the last sentence. Everything else is... a little strange...


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## robinthehood (Oct 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What "exact same deal" from 3 years ago? Article 50 hadn't even been triggered 3 years ago? What on earth are you on about? As for Boris not winning a vote; of course he hasn't, he hasn't got a majority.

I think the only thing of any relevance in your post is the last sentence. Everything else is... a little strange...
		
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To be fair, you're more than happy to post spurious links stirring up nonsense about an EU army,  but then shoot down others for doing the same sort of thing. 
I get the impression you're are nailed on brexiteer at heart really ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚


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## patricks148 (Oct 22, 2019)

this deal if you can call it that just shows what the Tory's are up to... Outright capitolism and the shedding of workes rights.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/aug/22/britannia-unchained-rise-of-new-tory-right 


raised again by Ownhttps://www.theguardian.com/comment...ris-johnson-brexit-dream-shred-workers-rights


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## Grant85 (Oct 22, 2019)

Seems like the published Withdrawal Agreement Bill is going to take a bit of time to consider. 

It's 115 pages and makes countless references to other pieces of legislation. It is basically unreadable to anyone other than lawyers or legal enthusiasts. I'd even suggest that a fair number of MPs will not even attempt to read it - but may get some kind of summary of the key points from Whips or Clerks. 

I think the assumption that this can all be railroaded through by Thursday evening is fanciful and I'd imagine there's a fair chance enough people will see sense and say 'No. Lets take a bit more time... October 31st is an arbitrary deadline'

Also worth remembering that this Bill has been drafted in near enough it's current form for the best part of a year, yet the Government chose not to publish it until around 7pm last night - less than a day before it hopes to start voting for it. I'd suggest there is a reason for that and the more people read it, the more there will be to dislike for Tory Moderates and Tory Brexiteers alike. 

This is potentially as daft / stupid / ignorant as all the MP's who voted to trigger A50 before they had any kind of plan, strategy or statement of intent about what they were going to negotiate with the EU. And then also voted to have an election a few weeks later.


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Tell that to people in New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Canada, Japan etc. Many of the EUs trade deals are with small trading countries.  We can do better as we would be unfettered from their bureaucracy which moves at the pace pf a snail.
		
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For those countries that have DONE deals with the EU (at least Japan and Canada from that list) bureaucratic speed is irrelevant! Aus and NZ are curently chugging through the process.
UK bureaucracy is hardly lightning btw!


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## Slime (Oct 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No it won't,  but* We've wasted 3 years* chasing some ridiculous intangible dream ,when we could have been making those things the priority  they should be.
		
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The only reason that we've wasted three years is because Remainers won't/can't accept the result of the referendum.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry but that's just laughable, up there with pastie tax.

5 MP's write a book and 3 cabinet ministers also contribute to it, and you believe it might end up being law. There's fringe groups in every party, the Tories having plenty of them, but there's no way any of that will happen. 10 days holiday!?!? Expect a revolt along the lines of the Poll Tax demonstrations if that gets anywhere near the statute books.

It would be political suicide and drive a significant number of Tory supporters to vote Labour.
		
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I agree.  But it's a bit weird.

I heard the Housing Minister this morning arguing that whilst the UK would always aim to maintain rights in line with the EU, and indeed maintain the current UK levels which are in many aspects and respects better than the EU's requirements - the government wants to be able to have the freedom to be able to vary rights as a might be required when negotiating trade deals.  And in the context of the Deal that can only mean having the flexibility to reduce them to *less *than EU minimum requirements - and in many areas that could be a significant reduction from today's levels.

I can therefore only conclude that if/when the Deal is agreed and worker/H&S etc rights remain outside of the legal aspect of the Deal, we are being signed up to accepting potentially significant loss of rights in the future.

It was also interesting hearing the minister trying to justify there being no economic analysis of the Deal done on the grounds that the Governor of the BoE is saying that it is a 'good' deal.  Nick Robinson was quick to point out that what the Governor had said is that the Deal is 'good' relative to No Deal - and that he also said that NO deal would be better economically than the deal we currently have.  I rather grimaced at a government minister quoting forecasts of the Gov of the BoE as a basis for it being a 'great' deal - given the rubbishing of him and all other economic forecasters that has gone on.  But there we go (I couldn't laugh as it's not funny).


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## woody69 (Oct 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			The only reason that we've wasted three years is because Remainers won't/can't accept the result of the referendum.
		
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If that helps you sleep at night, then sure that's the reason. I think it might be a little more complicated than that though.


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## Slime (Oct 22, 2019)

woody69 said:



			If that helps you sleep at night, then sure that's the reason. I think it might be a little more complicated than that though.
		
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I'm sure that if the remainers had accepted the result and worked with the leavers, things would have been done and dusted a long, long time ago.
Oh, I don't need any help sleeping, but thanks for thinking of me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Seems like the published Withdrawal Agreement Bill is going to take a bit of time to consider.

*It's 115 pages and makes countless references to other pieces of legislation. It is basically unreadable to anyone other than lawyers or legal enthusiasts. I'd even suggest that a fair number of MPs will not even attempt to read it - but may get some kind of summary of the key points from Whips or Clerks.*

I think the assumption that this can all be railroaded through by Thursday evening is fanciful and I'd imagine there's a fair chance enough people will see sense and say 'No. Lets take a bit more time... October 31st is an arbitrary deadline'

Also worth remembering that this Bill has been drafted in near enough it's current form for the best part of a year, yet the Government chose not to publish it until around 7pm last night - less than a day before it hopes to start voting for it. I'd suggest there is a reason for that and the more people read it, the more there will be to dislike for Tory Moderates and Tory Brexiteers alike.

This is potentially as daft / stupid / ignorant as all the MP's who voted to trigger A50 before they had any kind of plan, strategy or statement of intent about what they were going to negotiate with the EU. And then also voted to have an election a few weeks later.
		
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See the Brexit Secretary in committee yesterday having to correct himself on being questioned on the need for paperwork for 'exports' from NI to the UK.  At first none - then oops - sorry - yes - paperwork will be required.  Did he just forget or did he not realise?  Pretty basic stuff on the NI/UK border control (who'd have thought we'd be saying that when we walked into the voting booth back then...) you'd have thought the Brexit Secretary would be completely on top of.  No?

I fear that they are making it up as they go along and hence the need to minimise scrutiny and debate.


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## robinthehood (Oct 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			I'm sure that if the remainers had accepted the result and worked with the leavers, things would have been done and dusted a long, long time ago.
Oh, I don't need any help sleeping, but thanks for thinking of me. 

Click to expand...

I guess it's easier than reminding your self that the Tories threw their majority in a mistaken belief they'd sweep up the brexit vote and storm to a huge majority in an Ill thought out snap election.
Or that it was the Tory rebels who voted again thier own party to stop the first brexit vote .
But yeah it's all remain voters fault
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Seems like the published Withdrawal Agreement Bill is going to take a bit of time to consider.
...
Also worth remembering that this Bill has been drafted in near enough it's current form for the best part of a year, yet the Government chose not to publish it until around 7pm last night - less than a day before it hopes to start voting for it. I'd suggest there is a reason for that and the more people read it, the more there will be to dislike for Tory Moderates and Tory Brexiteers alike.

*This is potentially as daft / stupid / ignorant as all the MP's who voted to trigger A50 before they had any kind of plan, strategy or statement of intent about what they were going to negotiate with the EU. And then also voted to have an election a few weeks later.*

Click to expand...

Oh how often I asked at the time about the strategy and plan, to be told that in asking for such things I was being oh so naive about negotiations; that they government would of course have these but that we could not know of them.  And then a little later I was told that the plan was given by May in her Lancaster House speech - and I pointed out that her Lancaster House speech stated a set of Objectives - and a set of Objectives makes neither a Strategy nor a Plan.  And I was ridiculed yet again.  And here we are.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			The only reason that we've wasted three years is because Remainers won't/can't accept the result of the referendum.
		
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Itâ€™s those sort of comments that just show how pathetic this whole thing is 

I voted remain - so can you tell me what it is that myself and others that voted remain have done to stop us leaving considering the only thing we did was have one vote ? 

since when did â€œremainersâ€ have a say in what was said in the negotiations with the EU , did we as remainers manage to sneak into the HOC and put a vote in the box ? 

People like you and others need to stop putting the blame on this shambles onto people who have no say or responsibility on what the elected government say.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			The only reason that we've wasted three years is because Remainers won't/can't accept the result of the referendum.
		
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How about an alternative view that says we are where we are also because Leave had no idea what _Leave means Leave_ actually meant.  And that remains the case today without any interference whatsoever from 'Remainers'.

May had her idea of what Leave means (but she's a 'Remainer') - but her cabinet agreed with her; BoJo has his view (btw some Faragists are, as you might expect, now saying that BoJo has always been a 'Remainer' at heart and that explains why his deal is BRINO) - and his Cabinet agrees with _him_; and then there is Farage's view - and he tells his listeners, followers and acolytes, that leave is 'tearing' the UK away from the EU after 40 yrs of integration and that that will be 'clean' - when with even a little thought tells me that it is likely (I can't say definitely) to be extremely messy, ragged and painful.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s those sort of comments that just show how pathetic this whole thing is

I voted remain - so can you tell me what it is that myself and others that voted remain have done to stop us leaving considering the only thing we did was have one vote ?

since when did â€œremainersâ€ have a say in what was said in the negotiations with the EU , did we as remainers manage to sneak into the HOC and put a vote in the box ?

People like you and others need to stop putting the blame on this shambles onto people who have no say or responsibility on what the elected government say.
		
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Get real, youre not that precious.  He is talking about politicians that are remainers, not you ðŸ™„


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## adam6177 (Oct 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s those sort of comments that just show how pathetic this whole thing is

I voted remain - so can you tell me what it is that myself and others that voted remain have done to stop us leaving considering the only thing we did was have one vote ?

since when did â€œremainersâ€ have a say in what was said in the negotiations with the EU , did we as remainers manage to sneak into the HOC and put a vote in the box ?

People like you and others need to stop putting the blame on this shambles onto people who have no say or responsibility on what the elected government say.
		
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I half see where you're coming from, but also you have to consider the amount of marches for peoples votes, 2nd refs, revoke A50, bin brexit etc etc that the noisy minority have staged, knowing full well that the main media outlets in the country would jump on them as they desperately want us to stay in the EU.

So yes, whilst it is lazy to dump "remainers" in the same pot, it is also lazy for people to label leavers with the kind of rubbish that has been spouted over the last 3 years.  It seems this whole process has done little than drive a wedge between friends and families and lose so much respect for each other.......if the whole debacle had been dealt with swiftly we wouldn't be in this predicament and unfortunately its just getting worse.


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## Slime (Oct 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I guess it's easier than reminding your self that the Tories threw their majority in a mistaken belief they'd sweep up the brexit vote and storm to a huge majority in an Ill thought out snap election.
Or that it was the Tory rebels who voted again thier own party to stop the first brexit vote .
But yeah it's all remain voters fault
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Read my reply the way it was intended, not just the way you want to hear it.


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## Slime (Oct 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s those sort of comments that just show how pathetic this whole thing is

I voted remain - so can you tell me what it is that myself and others that voted remain have done to stop us leaving considering the only thing we did was have one vote ?

since when did â€œremainersâ€ have a say in what was said in the negotiations with the EU , did we as remainers manage to sneak into the HOC and put a vote in the box ?

People like you and others need to stop putting the blame on this shambles onto people who have no say or responsibility on what the elected government say.
		
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You know exactly what I mean, stop trying to be argumentative, it doesn't suit you.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How about an alternative view that says we are where we are also because Leave had no idea what _Leave means Leave_ actually meant.  And that remains the case today without any interference whatsoever from 'Remainers'.

May had her idea of what Leave means (but she's a 'Remainer') - but her cabinet agreed with her; BoJo has his view (btw some Faragists are, as you might expect, now saying that BoJo has always been a 'Remainer' at heart and that explains why his deal is BRINO) - and his Cabinet agrees with _him_; and then there is Farage's view - and he tells his listeners, followers and acolytes, that leave is 'tearing' the UK away from the EU after 40 yrs of integration and that that will be 'clean' - when with even a little thought tells me that it is likely (I can't say definitely) to be extremely messy, ragged and painful.
		
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Do you have to relive your posts from two years ago, they were wrong then so what's the point of regurgitating them. Im a Leaver and knew exactly what I voted for, just like the vast majority of others, if I threw the same back that Remainers were too stupid to understand the details of remaining on the EU I guess you would object to that statement suggesting I was insulting your intelligence.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			You know exactly what I mean, stop trying to be argumentative, it doesn't suit you.
		
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It does.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree.  But it's a bit weird.

I heard the Housing Minister this morning arguing that whilst the UK would always aim to maintain rights in line with the EU, and indeed maintain the current UK levels which are in many aspects and respects better than the EU's requirements - the government wants to be able to have the freedom to be able to vary rights as a might be required when negotiating trade deals.  And in the context of the Deal that can only mean having the flexibility to reduce them to *less *than EU minimum requirements - and in many areas that could be a significant reduction from today's levels.

I can therefore only conclude that if/when the Deal is agreed and worker/H&S etc rights remain outside of the legal aspect of the Deal, we are being signed up to accepting potentially significant loss of rights in the future.

It was also interesting hearing the minister trying to justify there being no economic analysis of the Deal done on the grounds that the Governor of the BoE is saying that it is a 'good' deal.  Nick Robinson was quick to point out that what the Governor had said is that the Deal is 'good' relative to No Deal - and that he also said that NO deal would be better economically than the deal we currently have.  I rather grimaced at a government minister quoting forecasts of the Gov of the BoE as a basis for it being a 'great' deal - given the rubbishing of him and all other economic forecasters that has gone on.  But there we go (I couldn't laugh as it's not funny).
		
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"and in many areas that could be a significant reduction from today's levels." Will it, or will they stay the same or will they even be improved. Affordable housing and tenant's rights is a significant issue in the UK. Do you honestly think the Tories will give away votes by making any detrimental changes? We don't know.

On the issue of worker's rights, and your conclusion, why do you see it as potentially seeing a significant loss in rights. Yes I get that there is that potential but you make no mention of the possibility of having better rights. 

Admittedly, secondhand anecdotal evidence but if you think the EU workers rights are applied right across the EU you'd be mistaken. I see local FB posts every single week, and usually quite a few, from people whose rights have been totally ignored. And you can add in the weird application of Health and Safety over here. Pretty much everyone is wearing yellow Hi-vis vests/t-shirts but virtually no one in a hard hat. The actual practices are frighteningly hilarious, e.g. a council worker putting up fiesta/Christmas lights using a set of A-frame ladders on the back of a flatbed truck.

Equally, my experiences of working in Germany, and worker's rights sees the UK lagging behind.

Don't forget, any diminishing of right will see a change in where votes go. Try and temper the paranoia a little. Not saying you're wrong but I'm also not saying you're right.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			For those countries that have DONE deals with the EU (at least Japan and Canada from that list) bureaucratic speed is irrelevant! Aus and NZ are curently chugging through the process.
UK bureaucracy is hardly lightning btw!
		
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Im not talking about the EU, I'm talking about trade deals in general.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2019)

Slime said:



			You know exactly what I mean, stop trying to be argumentative, it doesn't suit you.
		
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What exactly do you mean then because you clearly are blaming â€œremainersâ€ for the position we are in right now - you are being generic and lumping everyone together 

SILH does it towards â€œleaversâ€ and gets rightly critisized for it 

You are no better than the stuff he trots out - you are no doubt quite happy to pull him up on stuff when he is generic. 

So maybe itâ€™s best if you post exactly what you mean as opposed to lumping all remainers in together.


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## Mudball (Oct 22, 2019)

I think this will go thru.. the last round difference of votes was less than 10.     BoJo, DomCum dont care about the politics, impacts, workers, splitting the country etc... to use Raab's words 'they have the numbers' and thats what counts this month.   The opposition will come from SNP, LibDem.  The rest are all fence sitters, clueless or moneybags.   So i expect the BoJo coterie to play them for what it is worth.  


Leavers .. get your babyshams ready (only English Sparkling wine would do)


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## Jimaroid (Oct 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Get real, youre not that precious.  He is talking about politicians that are remainers, not you ðŸ™„
		
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Those MPs represent people like him.

And rightly so.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What exactly do you mean then because you clearly are blaming â€œremainersâ€ for the position we are in right now - you are being generic and lumping everyone together

SILH does it towards â€œleaversâ€ and gets rightly critisized for it

You are no better than the stuff he trots out - you are no doubt quite happy to pull him up on stuff when he is generic.

So maybe itâ€™s best if you post exactly what you mean as opposed to lumping all remainers in together.
		
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To avoid such accusations I try and make clear that I do not believe all Leave voters to be the same.  Maybe I should re-iterate that - I do not believe all Leave voters believe the same things.  I talked above about the Leave (campaign and lead proponents) not having a single definition of what Leaving meant.  I did not say, and I do not say, that each Leave voter did not know what he or she was voting for.  And just to be 100% clear - I did not say, and have never said, that Leave voters are racist and stupid - never said it - not once, and I would reject and rebuke any who say or suggest that they are.  We are all simply as informed and knowledgeable as the information we hear, read and understand - from whatever the source of that information might be.

There are many things that I am well or reasonably informed about - there are many things that I know little or nothing about.  What I know does not make make intelligent; what I do not know does not make me stupid.  In that - if nothing else (other than a passion for golf) - we are all the same.

And yes - Remain supporting MPs and those who wish to minimise the impact of Leaving, have been obstructive to letting the governments of May and Johnson have it all their own way (parliamentary scrutiny) - and  yes - that has contributed to where we are today.  But it is also the fact that Leave supporting MPs and influencers cannot themselves agree what they mean by Leave - and that too has contributed to where we are today.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2019)

Jimaroid said:



			Those MPs represent people like him.

And rightly so.
		
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Not noticed that. Are you saying there areMPs that represent their constituents views.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There are many things that I am well or reasonably informed about - there are many things that I know little or nothing about.  What I know does not make make intelligent; what I do not know does not make me stupid.  In that - if nothing else (other than a passion for golf) - we are all the same.

And yes - Remain supporting MPs and those who wish to minimise the impact of Leaving, have been obstructive to letting the governments of May and Johnson have it all their own way - and  yes - that has contributed to where we are today.  But it is also the fact that Leave supporting MPs and influencers cannot themselves agree what they mean by Leave - and that has contributed to where we are today.
		
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Took the first paragraph for no other reason than some will argue differently, and I'd like to get past that.

On who has enough info and who doesn't; some people, both Leave and Remain were happy to cast their vote on zero info. I don't have a problem with that. Its up to people to make their own choices based on what they want or perceive. Both sides lied, and both sides embellished beyond belief and are a blight on UK politics. As for those who argue using those embellished facts or lies, knowing they haven't looked to qualify those points, its very disappointing.

As for the very base idea that has seen IQ and age brought in to determine who voted for what and used that info disparagingly, that's just plain arrogant and downright rude. People made their choices for their reasons, and in the main those reasons should be respected even if they are not agreed with - exclude the racists from that.

As for Remainer MP's blocking progress; I'm all for keeping the govt honest and subject to parliamentary scrutiny but I disagree with stopping Brexit. The biggest democratic exercise undertaken given to the electorate by Parliament should be respected, even if people don't agree with it. There's some MP's who've campaigned very openly and honestly for both sides of the argument, and I have my utmost respect for those MP's. Those that have lied, been circumspect with the truth and have been disingenuous in what they've done bring discredit to Westminster, and I hope come the next election are shown the door by the electorate.


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## robinthehood (Oct 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Not noticed that. Are you saying there areMPs that represent their constituents views.
		
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Mine doesn't,  but that's not just about brexit, more because of his inaction towards the gnr fiasco.


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## Jimaroid (Oct 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Not noticed that. Are you saying there areMPs that represent their constituents views.
		
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Some do, some don't. That's the paradox we find ourselves in.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			I half see where you're coming from, but also you have to consider the amount of marches for peoples votes, 2nd refs, revoke A50, bin brexit etc etc that the noisy minority have staged, knowing full well that the main media outlets in the country would jump on them as they desperately want us to stay in the EU.
		
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No doubt people who want to stay in are arranging marches and petitions etc and itâ€™s their right to do so within a free speech democracy etc but it doesnâ€™t make much difference - the only ones that can carry out any actions are those within the HOC. Itâ€™s what they do that counts and imo we canâ€™t trust any of them - some want to stay in for self preservation, some want to have the deal because it will suit them , some want to carry out their voters actions. I have my fingers crossed that it all works out for us - but I think we have some interesting and hard times ahead




			So yes, whilst it is lazy to dump "remainers" in the same pot, it is also lazy for people to label leavers with the kind of rubbish that has been spouted over the last 3 years.  It seems this whole process has done little than drive a wedge between friends and families and lose so much respect for each other.......if the whole debacle had been dealt with swiftly we wouldn't be in this predicament and unfortunately its just getting worse.
		
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100% fully agree - you have it spot on

SILH has posted some rubbish on here and doesnâ€™t realise at times when he is being insulting to others - some are happy to point that out to him but when you challenge those people - denial - for me they are hypocrites and Socketrocket is the Leave version of SILH - their single minded arrogance has caused most of the issues on this thread but coming from different sides of the fence. And the country has loads of them from both sides which as you say has driven a wedge

I think because we are that entwined within the EU it was never going to be a quick and uncomplicated process - it was a vote for the whole of the UK and the process of leaving must take into account the whole of the UK and not just the percentage who voted to leave - they need to realise any action is not just about them. I donâ€™t see what a solution is going to be and itâ€™s just going to get worse. Iâ€™m glad I have an Irish Passport at the moment.

This did make me giggle


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have to relive your posts from two years ago, they were wrong then so what's the point of regurgitating them. Im a Leaver and knew exactly what I voted for, just like the vast majority of others, if I threw the same back that Remainers were too stupid to understand the details of remaining on the EU I guess you would object to that statement suggesting I was insulting your intelligence.
		
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But I am afraid that I have not forgotten that you were at the forefront of those telling me how naive I was asking for some visibility of Strategy and Plan; that it was unrealistic to get visibility of that as it would give our negotiating hand away; which I completely got - and get - but just some indication that the government had something would have been nice.  It rather seems that, over three years on, what they had was scribbled on the back of a fag packet.  

Yes - I have no doubt that you knew exactly what you voted for - but in you saying the vast majority of Leave voters knew what they were voting for was that the same as what you voted for?  leave means Leave?  Was it what BoJo has brought to the table?; is it what May brought?; is it what Farage would bring?  These are all different flavours of Leave.  

Is there another flavour that you'd prefer?  I know what mine is...but I might not get my preferred...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Took the first paragraph for no other reason than some will argue differently, and I'd like to get past that.

...

As for Remainer MP's blocking progress; I'm all for keeping the govt honest and subject to parliamentary scrutiny b*ut I disagree with stopping Brexit.* The biggest democratic exercise undertaken given to the electorate by Parliament should be respected, even if people don't agree with it. There's some MP's who've campaigned very openly and honestly for both sides of the argument, and I have my utmost respect for those MP's. Those that have lied, been circumspect with the truth and have been disingenuous in what they've done bring discredit to Westminster, and I hope come the next election are shown the door by the electorate.
		
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I am completely with you on all but *this*, and even on that there are circumstances under which - were I to be asked again - I might vote to Leave because the country has been split by Brexit.  The EU was never the most important issue for the majority of the electorate - but Brexit has now made it the one thing that many are very angry about - and I am afraid that that genie is out of the bottle and the country will take a very long time to recover from. If I was confident that the anger would be dissipated and the wound would start to heal - for that reason alone I could vote to Leave.  But I fear that even with the UK leaving on the basis of Johnson's deal, the likelihood is that Farage and his crew will continue to rub salt into the wound and that will prevent healing for a long time.

So whilst I find myself leaning towards accepting we must leave - the anger of Farage and his crew, plus the paucity of decent personal values, antics and untrustworthiness of Johnson and the fawning and disingenuousness  of his lickspittle cabinet makes that acceptance difficult.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Mine doesn't,  but that's not just about brexit, more because of his inaction towards the gnr fiasco.
		
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On Brexit mine most certainly doesn't - step forward Jeremy Hunt...

The next GE will be interesting...not so many GEs ago the LibDems came quite close - polling 40% of the vote.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am completely with you on all but *this*, and even on that there are circumstances under which - were I to be asked again - I might vote to Leave because the country has been split by Brexit.  The EU was never the most important issue for the majority of the electorate - but Brexit has now made it the one thing that many are very angry about - and I am afraid that that genie is out of the bottle and the country will take a very long time to recover from. If I was confident that the anger would be dissipated and the wound would start to heal - for that reason alone I could vote to Leave.  But I fear that even with the UK leaving on the basis of Johnson's deal, the likelihood is that Farage and his crew will continue to rub salt into the wound and that will prevent healing for a long time.

So whilst I find myself leaning towards accepting we must leave - the anger of Farage and his crew, plus the paucity of decent personal values, antics and untrustworthiness of Johnson and the fawning and disingenuousness  of his lickspittle cabinet makes that acceptance difficult.
		
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I think you really need to address your own anger and language too. Whilst I agree that the lack of personal values amongst some politicians is so obvious, emotive language like lickspittle cabinet paints an extreme picture. And it is that language when seen by the opposing camp that so infuriates and angers people. 

You've talked about division and anger many times, and the hope that society came come together but you then perpetuate it yourself. Where is the conciliation in your own actions? When do you look for the middle ground? You/we won't change people's minds by attacking them and their beliefs. You're going about it in exactly the diametrically opposite way to achieve your goals - engage and debate, don't attack.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nick Ferrari on LBC often uses the 'divorce' analogy when arguing against circumstances changing supporting a case for a confirmatory referendum.

His analogy has it that a couple decides to divorce - and that's it.  They divorce.  End of. They go their own ways.

But that is _not_ it.  *A couple decide to divorce and their solicitors work with the couple to agree a divorce settlement, and once that is agreed and the couple review the agreement the couple then proceed with their divorce.  Or they don't.*  Because it is quite possible that during the settlement negotiations the couple realise the error or their ways - perhaps through pleadings from any children, or when they look at the impact of their separating on themselves; their family; their friends - and in looking at all of that, they decide that it's just not worth it - perhaps that the reasons for initiating the divorce were mistaken or petty - whatever.  In any case.  A couple who decide to divorce, and initiate divorce proceedings, are not required to go through with it.  Circumstances might change; they might change their minds; and they might just decide to call it off and stay together.

Ferrari's analogy just doesn't work.
		
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I don't think you are right on that( the part in the bold).
A couple divorce. Then the property settlement etc starts, the horse trading begins. It may be that upon agreeing a divorce, a couple also agree a division of property etc, but then the solicitors get to work and it may all change.
There have been some cases, I'm sure, where the one with the property, money etc, has fought the granting of a divorce in order to avoid the other 
Spouse being entitled to some/majority/all of the assets being subsequently awarded.
If my take on this is not correct, no doubt someone legally qualified will clarify.


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## Slime (Oct 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What exactly do you mean then because you clearly are blaming â€œremainersâ€ for the position we are in right now - you are being generic and lumping everyone together

SILH does it towards â€œleaversâ€ and gets rightly critisized for it

You are no better than the stuff he trots out - you are no doubt quite happy to pull him up on stuff when he is generic.

So maybe itâ€™s best if you post exactly what you mean* as opposed to lumping all remainers in together.*

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If you want to read it as 'all remainers', then crack on, although that's not what I said.
Obviously it was a reference to the remainers in Parliament because, even someone as stupid as me would realise, they are the ones keeping this mess going by preventing us from leaving the EU.  They are just hell bent on causing as much chaos as possible in the hope that an exit never happens.
I totally get that ordinary voters only had one say in the event, give me some credit.


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## IanM (Oct 22, 2019)

Brexit has NOT _*caused *_division, the country was always significantly Euro-sceptic.  The only change I've observed since 2016, is the EU leaders are now more honest and open over their(Federal) intentions.  

All you need to know about this process comes from the Lib Dem Leader who says a 2nd Vote is the only democratic option, but won't accept the outcome, unless it is to Remain.   

There you have it in a nutshell.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think you really need to address your own anger and language too. Whilst I agree that the lack of personal values amongst some politicians is so obvious, emotive language like lickspittle cabinet paints an extreme picture. And it is that language when seen by the opposing camp that so infuriates and angers people.

You've talked about division and anger many times, and the hope that society came come together but you then perpetuate it yourself. Where is the conciliation in your own actions? When do you look for the middle ground? You/we won't change people's minds by attacking them and their beliefs. You're going about it in exactly the diametrically opposite way to achieve your goals - engage and debate, don't attack.
		
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Sorry - but in my opinion they are a lickspittle cabinet...it is for me an appropriate adjective to use...

And as far as looking for the middle ground - what did I post. I'll repeat it.

_S*o whilst I find myself leaning towards accepting we must leave* - the anger of Farage and his crew, plus the paucity of decent personal values, antics and untrustworthiness of Johnson and the fawning and disingenuousness of his lickspittle cabinet *makes that acceptance difficult.*_

Making it difficult does stop it happening.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - but in my opinion they are a lickspittle cabinet...it is for me the appropriate word to use...

And as far as looking for the middle ground - what did I post. I'll repeat it.

_S*o whilst I find myself leaning towards accepting we must leave* - the anger of Farage and his crew, plus the paucity of decent personal values, antics and untrustworthiness of Johnson and the fawning and disingenuousness of his lickspittle cabinet *makes that acceptance difficult.*_

Making it difficult does stop it happening.
		
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But that sort of language just makes you look like them. As I've said before, uncomfortably, you end up looking like a Remain version of Farage or Johnson.

But here's a question for you. Name all of Johnson's Cabinet without looking them up. Explain their individual political leanings and their track record. And if you can't answer those questions, how can you call the Cabinet lickspittle?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But that sort of language just makes you look like them. As I've said before, uncomfortably, you end up looking like a Remain version of Farage or Johnson.

But here's a question for you. Name all of Johnson's Cabinet without looking them up. Explain their individual political leanings and their track record. And if you can't answer those questions, how can you call the Cabinet lickspittle?
		
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I cannot name all of the Cabinet off the top of my head, however looking at it from the other direction, I am not hearing any member of cabinet speaking out in any way challenging what is coming from the Prime Minister and the most senior members of the government - such as Raab, Patel, Javid, Leadsom, Rees-Mogg, Cleverley, Villiers, Barclay and Gove.

I have no time for the Brexit views of any of them - but I could still vote to Leave in a confirmatory referendum....


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			...
Boris' amazing deal , which is the *exact deal we were offered* 3 years ago, *is somehow worse than Mays deal...*

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1. It's not the same deal - by a long shot
2. Then you go and conrtradict yourself!

But he's shown, to me, that he's a buffoon many times!


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I cannot name all of the Cabinet off the top of my head, however looking at it from the other direction, I am not hearing any member of cabinet speaking out in any way challenging what is coming from the Prime Minister and the most senior members of the government - such as Raab, Patel, Javid, Leadsom, Rees-Mogg, Cleverley, Villiers, Barclay and Gove.

I have no time for the Brexit views of any of them - but I could still vote to Leave in a confirmatory referendum....
		
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So you know all the Cabinet is lickspittle without knowing who they are, what their leanings are, what their track record is and whether or not they are yes men/women.

You are no better than Farage in spreading your own political rubbish. You don't know whether its truth or not but you're willing to call people purely because they might be that way inclined. How on earth do you look at yourself in the mirror?

And by the way, if you look up the track record of various Cabinet members, as I have just done, you will find that several of them aren't Leavers and have cautioned against things like suspending parliament/proroguing parliament. And makes you look  a little.... shallow in your arguments?


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I guess it's easier than reminding your self that the Tories threw their majority in a mistaken belief they'd sweep up the brexit vote and storm to a huge majority in an Ill thought out snap election.
Or that it was the Tory rebels who voted again thier own party to stop the first brexit vote .
But yeah it's all remain voters fault
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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That wasn't the reason for the 'snap election'.

It did, however, backfire rather badly!


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## robinthehood (Oct 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That wasn't the reason for the 'snap election'.

It did, however, backfire rather badly!
		
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? It's exactly why she called it.
She thought she could strengthen her majority ...


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Not noticed that. Are you saying there areMPs that represent their constituents views.
		
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Jeremiah 5:21
Matthew 9 26-27


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			...
She thought she could strengthen her majority ...
		
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Not quite! The REAL reason was that she could see she didn't have the numbers to get Leave legislation through! She needed to increase her majority!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*But that sort of language just makes you look like them.* As I've said before, uncomfortably, you end up looking like a Remain version of Farage or Johnson.

But here's a question for you. Name all of Johnson's Cabinet without looking them up. Explain their individual political leanings and their track record. And if you can't answer those questions, how can you call the Cabinet lickspittle?
		
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OK - on reflection I am perhaps a bit OTT and harsh on that - so I'll call them all loyal, and committed to the cause.


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## robinthehood (Oct 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Not quite! The REAL reason was that she could see she didn't have the numbers to get Leave legislation through! She needed to increase her majority!
		
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Riiiiiight....oof


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## woody69 (Oct 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			1. It's not the same deal - by a long shot
2. Then you go and conrtradict yourself!

But he's shown, to me, that he's a buffoon many times!
		
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I can't speak for pauljames, but he may well be implying the deal negotiated by Boris is effectively the same deal that was offered to us by the EU, which May rejected due to the annexing of NI and she progressed with the backstop for the whole of the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

BoJo in the House is telling us that if his Deal is voted down or amended then he's pulling it and GE here way come.  Not sure how he'll engineer that but I'm sure he has a Cumming Plan.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Not quite! The REAL reason was that she could see she didn't have the numbers to get Leave legislation through! She needed to increase her majority!
		
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But she did not get it and the leave voters disappeared into the wood work leaving you to question whether they have a majority of 1.6 million that keeps being rolled out.
Hence a General election fought on the leave no deal, leave with a deal and remain will probably course a 3 way axis but we will see the majorities and the legislation for all irrespective of the winners will go through smoother ...
I also think Corbyn though maligned is right to ask for a second referendum, because it guides him to select the correct party manifesto and either remove or convince those who disagree .. Boris would benefit as well, although I don't think he is clever enough to realise this and the Libs will see if they really have any mileage at all.

In reality leaving is okay, if there is a credible benefit short term and long term and the plan is laid out .. if its as good as remaining then let's fill our boots.
However we are nowhere near hard facts, a plan and road map to a positive outcome... if we get that I am sure the house will be less divided and the country will come together.


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## drdel (Oct 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BoJo in the House is telling us that if his Deal is voted down or amended then he's pulling it and GE here way come.  Not sure how he'll engineer that but I'm sure he has a Cumming Plan.
		
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I wonder what your solution would be. 
Barnier has restated that its this deal or no deal even with a possible short 'technical' extension. So given Barnier's declaration and if the HoC won't entertain progressing the WA what point would there be for the PM to try and continue without a majority. So surely its best, under such circumstances, to push for a GE as soon as practical.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 22, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I can't speak for pauljames, but he may well be implying the deal negotiated by Boris is effectively the same deal that was offered to us by the EU, which May rejected due to the annexing of NI and she progressed with the backstop for the whole of the UK.
		
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My understanding was the NI elements were different and it looks like he conceded fishing rights as well, plus some other bits about negotiating deals with other markets


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## drdel (Oct 22, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			But she did not get it and the leave voters disappeared into the wood work leaving you to question whether they have a majority of 1.6 million that keeps being rolled out.
Hence a General election fought on the leave no deal, leave with a deal and remain will probably course a 3 way axis but we will see the majorities and the legislation for all irrespective of the winners will go through smoother ...
I also think Corbyn though maligned is right to ask for a second referendum, because it guides him to select the correct party manifesto and either remove or convince those who disagree .. Boris would benefit as well, although I don't think he is clever enough to realise this and the Libs will see if they really have any mileage at all.

In reality leaving is okay, if there is a credible benefit short term and long term and the plan is laid out .. if its as good as remaining then let's fill our boots.
However we are nowhere near hard facts, a plan and road map to a positive outcome... if we get that I am sure the house will be less divided and the country will come together.
		
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I think you may be mixing up stuff. The WA is just about process; the 'transition' period is when the financial and other mechanisms will be planned which will generate the impact assessments.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			SILH has posted some rubbish on here and doesnâ€™t realise at times when he is being insulting to others - some are happy to point that out to him but when you challenge those people - denial -* for me they are hypocrites and Socketrocket is the Leave version of SILH *- their single minded arrogance has caused most of the issues on this thread but coming from different sides of the fence. And the country has loads of them from both sides which as you say has driven a wedge
		
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You are entitled to think that but I dont suggest those that voted Remain are stupid or unentitled to their views, I simply counter posts that I disagree with.  You on the other hand are constantly posting on here that those that want to leave or are happy with a no deal are selfish, they dont care about the havoc and unemployment they want to bring to the country, you also keep harping on about how the referendum vote was not a majority of the country so is not a fair outcome, this along with your sanctimonious whinging and irony is often juvenile and without reasoning.   Check yourself out before pointing the finger at others.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			I wonder what your solution would be.
Barnier has restated that its this deal or no deal even with a possible short 'technical' extension. So given Barnier's declaration and if the HoC won't entertain progressing the WA what point would there be for the PM to try and continue without a majority. So surely its best, under such circumstances, to push for a GE as soon as practical.
		
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I guess it is.  Though given BoJo's ability to open the unopenable - well he might succeed again if he tried. 

But assuming Barnier holds to his statement, will BoJo campaign on his Deal or a No Deal?  And there's the risk the opposition run.  No Deal for many is unconscionable - so why run the risk of BoJo campaigning on that basis to shut out Farage. 

If BoJo guaranteed that the Conservative Party manifesto would exclude leaving on No Deal (what's the point of that as a negotiating ploy if you believe Barnier that the negotiating is done), and that the Conservative Party offer on Brexit is the current deal - then OK.  We might well have the basis for a GE being triggered.


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			But she did not get it and the leave voters disappeared into the wood work leaving you to question whether they have a majority of 1.6 million that keeps being rolled out.
Hence a General election fought on the leave no deal, leave with a deal and remain will probably course a 3 way axis but we will see the majorities and the legislation for all irrespective of the winners will go through smoother ...
I also think Corbyn though maligned is right to ask for a second referendum, because it guides him to select the correct party manifesto and either remove or convince those who disagree .. Boris would benefit as well, although I don't think he is clever enough to realise this and the Libs will see if they really have any mileage at all.

In reality leaving is okay, if there is a credible benefit short term and long term and the plan is laid out .. if its as good as remaining then let's fill our boots.
However we are nowhere near hard facts, a plan and road map to a positive outcome... if we get that I am sure the house will be less divided and the country will come together.
		
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Virtually everything in that post is completely irrelevant!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are entitled to think that but I dont suggest those that voted Remain are stupid or unentitled to their views, I simply counter posts that I disagree with.  You on the other hand are constantly posting on here that those that want to leave or are happy with a no deal are selfish, they dont care about the havoc and unemployment they want to bring to the country, you also keep harping on about how the referendum vote was not a majority of the country so is *not a fair outcome, *this along with your sanctimonious whinging and irony is often juvenile and without reasoning.   Check yourself out before pointing the finger at others.
		
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Iâ€™ll challenge you to find one single post where I have stated that the result was not a â€œfair outcomeâ€. 

I also have not stated that the referendum vote was not the majority of the country - I just stated a fact that is was the â€œmajority of the people who voted â€œ as opposed to the majority of the country ( which people has stated a number of times ) 

Both you and SILH ruined any sensible discussion that could be had on this thread a long time ago - I believe both of you at one stage requested to stop posting on here ? I think that was the time when a lot more sensible debate was had and people were able to gain more information from each other. 

Just go back through the thread and see it being dominated by both of you - SILH posts paragraph after paragraph - the next post is you responded with the same manner you do now to anyone who has dared to vote in a different way to you.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			1. It's not the same deal - by a long shot
2. Then you go and conrtradict yourself!

But he's shown, to me, that he's a buffoon many times!
		
Click to expand...

Mays deal is not the same deal

The deal Boris has fought for is the deal the EU offered us as soon as we voted leave 

Mays deal was ' negotiated' to 'win' things


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I can't speak for pauljames, but he may well be implying the deal negotiated by Boris is effectively the same deal that was offered to us by the EU, which May rejected due to the annexing of NI and she progressed with the backstop for the whole of the UK.
		
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The arrangements about NI clearly differentiate BoJo's from May's. I can't remember any suggestion that NI was being 'annexed' during May's negotiations...Please elucidate.


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			I wonder what your solution would be.
Barnier has restated that its this deal or no deal even with a possible short 'technical' extension. So given Barnier's declaration and if the HoC won't entertain progressing the WA what point would there be for the PM to try and continue without a majority. So surely its best, under such circumstances, to push for a GE as soon as practical.
		
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What will a GE actually achieve? There are, or will be once they've examined the (huge!) Bill in detail! Plenty of BoJo deal sceptics in Conservatives too. So it would be the precise gamble May took - and 'lost'!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2019)

Another General Election? 

Whatâ€™s changed since the last one - no single party imo will be able to gain a majority 

But can a big coalition be formed to stop the Tories getting in again ? 

People are getting to the stage where they have had enough of all this - regardless of which way they voted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are entitled to think that but I dont suggest those that voted Remain are stupid or unentitled to their views, I simply counter posts that I disagree with.  *You on the other hand are constantly posting on here that those that want to leave or are happy with a no deal are selfish, they dont care about the havoc and unemployment they want to bring to the country, *you also keep harping on about how the referendum vote was not a majority of the country so is not a fair outcome, this along with your sanctimonious whinging and irony is often juvenile and without reasoning.   Check yourself out before pointing the finger at others.
		
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I wish that I could be sure that *this *was *not* how many think - I really do.

Unfortunately, in my limited experience of hearing the views of a section of the Leave voting electorate - through listening to many Leave voters who have phoned in over the last three years to many LBC phone-ins - and who express their views on QT etc. I am just not so sure.   There are many many leave voters who care deeply about the country - there seem to be a growing number who just want out - regardless it seems.

The problem for me is that too many for comfort are now simply repeating the Government mantra - _Just Get it Done - Let's Get Brexit Done _ or variants thereof. Exactly what Cummings would have intended.  And that is understandable - I'm a bit sick of it also.  But that, I am afraid, does not suggest that with many there is now a great deal of thought going into the impact of the current Deal on NI, the Union, Workers and H&S rights, the economy etc. Sure enough the Chancellor is refusing to provide an economic assessment of the impact on the economy of leaving on the current deal - even if one has been done - maybe he knows it doesn't matter to that part of the electorate on his 'side'. And that just can't be good.

We *all *want this over and done with.  But thinking that leaving on the basis of Johnson's Deal will 'Get Brexit Done' as Johnson implores, is, as we here all know, just delusional. We will be ploughing through this for years.  So for goodness sake let's just enable the HoC take a bit of care and time to examine and scrutinise properly what's on offer - so we can get some form of agreement over this bit and won't spend the next however long arguing about detail in the WAB that we did not know about.


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## drdel (Oct 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



*What will a GE actually achieve?* There are, or will be once they've examined the (huge!) Bill in detail! Plenty of BoJo deal sceptics in Conservatives too. So it would be the precise gamble May took - and 'lost'!
		
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Forget the Brexit shambles which isn't going anywhere soon IMO. Current government does not have a majority so the normal process of legislation isn't working.


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			...
The deal Boris has fought for is the deal the EU offered us as soon as we voted leave
...
		
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Twaddle!

There are obviously similarities, but also fundamental differences! For example, BoJo's 'backstop' arrangement only relates to (Northern) Ireland; May's applied to whole of UK!


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			Forget the Brexit shambles which isn't going anywhere soon IMO. Current government does not have a majority so the normal process of legislation isn't working.
		
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However 99.9% of visible government work appears to be related to Brexit!

Btw. BoJo threw away the small majority he inherited when he removed the Whip from dissenters!


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			Forget the Brexit shambles which isn't going anywhere soon IMO. Current government does not have a majority so the normal process of legislation isn't working.
		
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Quite agree. If govt can not get Bills through, it can not effectively function then a GE it is.

For those saying what has changed since the last election I would say a reasonable amount. The lines on Brexit are now clearly drawn. If you voted to leave and your MP is blocking leave then you may well not vote for them even if you voted for them in the past. Of course other policies will count but Brexit will be massive in this election. If nothing changes then so be it but the only way to find out is to have a GE and see what happens.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!

There are obviously similarities, but also fundamental differences! For example, BoJo's 'backstop' arrangement only relates to (Northern) Ireland; May's applied to whole of UK!
		
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But did that not come about through May asking the EU to change their offer from NI-only to all-UK?  Because for May any form of NI/UK border control was totally unacceptable.


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## woody69 (Oct 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			The arrangements about NI clearly differentiate BoJo's from May's. I can't remember any suggestion that NI was being 'annexed' during May's negotiations...Please elucidate.
		
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When May first went to the EU to begin negotiations they offered up the arrangement of the backstop being in the Irish sea. The idea was rejected by May on the grounds it was unpalatable to her partners in the Democratic Unionist party, on which she relied for her working majority. At the time, she said â€œno British prime ministerâ€ could accept a regulatory border being drawn in the Irish Sea. They said it was undemocratic and unconstitutional and would place a tariff border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. And Boris has done effectively that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

woody69 said:



			When May first went to the EU to begin negotiations they offered up the arrangement of the backstop being in the Irish sea. The idea was rejected by May on the grounds it was unpalatable to her partners in the Democratic Unionist party, on which she relied for her working majority. At the time, she said â€œno British prime ministerâ€ could accept a regulatory border being drawn in the Irish Sea. They said it was undemocratic and unconstitutional and would place a tariff border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. And Boris has done effectively that.
		
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...and I think that, to a large extent - combined perhaps and to some extent with BoJo waving No Deal very vigorously, that is why the EU reopened the WA - Johnson walked-back from the position May had requested - back to the EUs original idea.  Why wouldn't they go for that?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

BoJo to seek a ten day Brexit 'technical' extension past 31/10?

BoJo earlier on extending for WAB scrutiny - No Way Jose
#10 realisation - Ten Day Jose

?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2019)

woody69 said:



			When May first went to the EU to begin negotiations they offered up the arrangement of the backstop being in the Irish sea. The idea was rejected by May on the grounds it was unpalatable to her partners in the Democratic Unionist party, on which she relied for her working majority. At the time, she said â€œno British prime ministerâ€ could accept a regulatory border being drawn in the Irish Sea. They said it was undemocratic and unconstitutional and would place a tariff border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. And Boris has done effectively that.
		
Click to expand...

Thats not correct.  Under the new arrangements NI will leave the Customs Union the same as the rest of the UK. Some special arrangements will be made to allow certain goods to be in a regulatory arrangement with The ROI , I think its food and Industrial goods by memory.    This was not the deal in the May arrangement, under that they originally wanted only NI to be in the backstop and May suggested it should apply to the whole of the UK.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 22, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186675877276467205


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## Mudball (Oct 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats not correct.  Under the new arrangements NI will leave the Customs Union the same as the rest of the UK. Some special arrangements will be made to allow certain goods to be in a regulatory arrangement with The ROI , I think its food and Industrial goods by memory.    This was not the deal in the May arrangement, under that they originally wanted only NI to be in the backstop and May suggested it should apply to the whole of the UK.
		
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So for trade purposes, NI is not part of UK anymore.   They will follow the EU regulations NOT UK.  Duties have to be paid during for movement of goods from GB to NI - this will be reimbursed if the goods dont move further South.     So back to the point that NI is devolved from a Trade perspective.   The backstop just moved further into the Irish Sea..   or have i got this wrong?


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## spongebob59 (Oct 22, 2019)

Harry Yorke

@HarryYorke1
Â·
31m

John Mann chuckling away in the background as Anna Soubry says a general election "will solve nothing".  "It would get rid of you," he quips.


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## Mudball (Oct 22, 2019)

I must admit, i hadnt read this document before..   Govt's analysis/modelling of the post-Brexit scenario.  It assumes that long term Brexit will be a success. 

https://assets.publishing.service.g...EU_Exit_-_Long-term_economic_analysis__1_.pdf 

However, in every scenario it says we will be worse off for 15 years and real wages being depressed.  This was written in Nov last year.  Given BoJo = TMay - Backstop, these scenarios still apply along with the fact that NI is 'trade devolved' and we continue to pay Brussels for a long time and end FoM..   

PS: I am sure someone will come along and say we have a lot of experts and that no Govt Dept ever got its forecast correct


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## robinthehood (Oct 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I must admit, i hadnt read this document before..   Govt's analysis/modelling of the post-Brexit scenario.  It assumes that long term Brexit will be a success.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...EU_Exit_-_Long-term_economic_analysis__1_.pdf

However, in every scenario it says we will be worse off for 15 years and real wages being depressed.  This was written in Nov last year.  Given BoJo = TMay - Backstop, these scenarios still apply along with the fact that NI is 'trade devolved' and we continue to pay Brussels for a long time and end FoM..  

PS: I am sure someone will come along and say we have a lot of experts and that no Govt Dept ever got its forecast correct
		
Click to expand...

Just file it under project fear ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I must admit, i hadnt read this document before..   Govt's analysis/modelling of the post-Brexit scenario.  It assumes that long term Brexit will be a success.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...EU_Exit_-_Long-term_economic_analysis__1_.pdf

However, in every scenario it says we will be worse off for 15 years and real wages being depressed.  This was written in Nov last year.  Given BoJo = TMay - Backstop, these scenarios still apply along with the fact that NI is 'trade devolved' and we continue to pay Brussels for a long time and end FoM..  

PS: I am sure someone will come along and say we have a lot of experts and that no Govt Dept ever got its forecast correct
		
Click to expand...

Oh go on then. "No govt dept ever gets its forecast correct."

TBH, I haven't got a clue how it will go, assuming Brexit does happen. One thing's for sure, the UK will be worse off from D-day. Quite how long that will last, who knows. Bearing in mind the Gov of the BoE has apologised for getting a forecast wrong I wouldn't say anything either way --- he's an expert, I'm not.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think you may be mixing up stuff. The WA is just about process; the 'transition' period is when the financial and other mechanisms will be planned which will generate the impact assessments.
		
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Perhaps or perhaps not the WA needs to have greater details and a consolidated position on certain key items otherwise we will be having ongoing discussions.


spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186675877276467205

Click to expand...

If they are all leavers ... there isn't very many of them !!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 22, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Virtually everything in that post is completely irrelevant!
		
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Says you ... and your getting a little worked up in other posts.
You may think your standing on the fence of common sense but certain arguments have lacked facts to make a discussion. There is nothing sensible about any of this, right from DC calling for it .. he should have had an internal Tory party vote at some conference to see the lay of the land before getting the great unwashed involved! Just remember that the Tory party made this country implode, no one else, they just discussed it freely as they are allowed to do.


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## Mudball (Oct 22, 2019)

*Yippee... i was right... It would get the HoC...  *
it is a numbers game that is run by 'winners' v 'losers' rather than principles and ethics.  So it sailed thru.  A few more days and we can leave the EU and NI..

All the MPs care for is to keep their jobs as long as possible and therefore avoid a GE.  Well played by DomCum


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 22, 2019)

Angela Eagle saying that bringing back the same Brexit vote in Parliament hoping for a different result was insulting to everyone involved.
Angela Eagle supports a second referendum on Brexit.

Definitely an early leader for the 2019 Pot Kettle Award


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## ger147 (Oct 22, 2019)

Another dead end in the HoC's tonight...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2019)

So have I got this right

Boris Johnson made the declaration that we will leave on 31st Oct 

He has agreed a deal with the EU ( as did May ) - who knows if itâ€™s better or worse than the May deal and if itâ€™s worse than actually staying in the EU , on the first point it seems the deal is worse especially for NI

So it seems he is trying everything in his power to get this deal done by 31st Oct - he has been forced to ask for a delay but did it in a childish way , he is trying to force this deal through but the timetable has been rejected , he says they must now prepare for No Deal 

So my questions are 

Is Johnson trying to get this deal through because itâ€™s a superb deal and itâ€™s best for the UK but he still believes in No Deal 

Or is it all about saving face - he stated we would leave by 31st October and if we donâ€™t then itâ€™s going to look very embarrassing for him 

Is it time for a politician to swallow some pride and just do what they think is best for the UK and not for themselves 

Has Johnson realised that leaving the EU wasnâ€™t as easy as claimed and he is trying to just get it done regardless of the consequences 

But once again this just confirms to me what a complete and utter embarrassment our government must be to the outside world - I bet they canâ€™t wait to take advantage of us


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BoJo in the House is telling us that if his Deal is voted down or amended then he's pulling it and GE here way come.  Not sure how he'll engineer that but I'm sure he has a Cumming Plan.
		
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Well,  as I understand it,if the vote goes against him, and ( as remainers 
 and you anti BJ types want,) there is an extension granted by the EU, then Corbyn has said he will welcome a GE.
However, if Corbyn goes back on that, and they all want to hang on to their jobs and will not vote a GE, then BJ may have to resign as PM.
And gamble that the HoC will not tolerate an administration headed by Corbyn.
If Corbyn cannot govern, then GE it is.
One thing is sure.Neither BJ or any prime minister can govern with the numbers he commands now, so something has to change. Certainly when being against him is predicated more on  animosity against his character than his policy, as is the reality in your case, I suspect.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2019)

WAB passes 2nd Reading.  Fine.  2-3 days for HoC scrutiny.  Rejected.  What a surprise.  Legislation paused but not pulled.  Not sure the point of doing that given scrutiny could now start and pace of that could inform estimates of timescales that might be required to complete HoC scrutiny before being passed to the Lords.  Dunno.  Possibly a ploy to blame the EU for delay in start of HoC scrutiny given they are unlikely to give their view tonight.

Though I note no mention by Johnson in his initial response of leaving on 31/10.  Edit - weird - he did.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If you want a bit of honesty then turn your head in the direction of Letwin, Benn, Grieves, Corbyn, McDonnell and their shabby bunch of cronies and question their motives. 

You are correct that many people don't want the previous vote overturned, why the hell should they, it hasn't been enacted yet.  Your view reeks of 'entitlement' one that says 'I didnt get my way so I'll scream and scream untill im sick'
		
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Hobbit said:



			I'll agree with you on Corbyn and McDonnell. For me, the jury is out for Letwin. Benn has been nothing other honest with what he wants all the way through.
		
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The jury is no longer out for Letwin. After having his amendment voted through, and then saying on the Andrew Marr show he would vote for Boris' deal - he was very clear about it, he voted against it tonight.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 22, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186717198322147328


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## ger147 (Oct 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The jury is no longer out for Letwin. After having his amendment voted through, and then saying on the Andrew Marr show he would vote for Boris' deal - he was very clear about it, he voted against it tonight.
		
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Not true - he voted in favour of passing the bill, he voted No to the timetable motion.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Not true - he voted in favour of passing the bill, he voted No to the timetable motion.
		
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Cheers... I missed that.


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2019)

It looks like he voted with the government both times https://commonsvotes.digiminster.com/
Unless I'm reading something wrong.


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## ger147 (Oct 22, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It looks like he voted with the government both times https://commonsvotes.digiminster.com/
Unless I'm reading something wrong.
		
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Yep, you're spot on. I didn't look up his 2nd vote, just assumed from Hobbit's post that he had voted against the timetable as I knew he had voted in favour of the bill.

Apologies, my mistake.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Yep, you're spot on. I didn't look up his 2nd vote, just assumed from Hobbit's post that he had voted against the timetable as I knew he had voted in favour of the bill.

Apologies, my mistake.
		
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I got it from the Beeb website. They listed the Labour MP's who voted with the govt and the Tory MP's who voted against the Govt. Letwin was on that list.


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I got it from the Beeb website. They listed the Labour MP's who voted with the govt and the Tory MP's who voted against the Govt. Letwin was on that list.
		
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What have we told people about believing the BBC


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## ger147 (Oct 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I got it from the Beeb website. They listed the Labour MP's who voted with the govt and the Tory MP's who voted against the Govt. Letwin was on that list.
		
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Old Skier's link above is also the one I use. Every vote is listed on the HoC's website with how every MP voted each time, very handy resource if you're a saddo like me


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## Slime (Oct 22, 2019)




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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2019)

Ken Clarke seems to be the only politician in England who knows what occurring.
Says, Johnson's government could not successfully run a whelk stall.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ken Clarke seems to be the only politician in England who knows what occurring.
Says, Johnson's government could not successfully run a whelk stall.

Click to expand...

??? It's being stuck trying to sort Brexit. Just how do YOU suggest they do it? All Corbin does is say the opposite of whatever Boris says no matter what it is.


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2019)

Slime said:



View attachment 28403

Click to expand...

I still prefer this one...


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But did that not come about through May asking the EU to change their offer from NI-only to all-UK?  Because for May any form of NI/UK border control was totally unacceptable.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed it did. But there are 'new' elements (relating to Customs Union) that are actually in BoJo's deal that - as far as I know because offers and 'the deal' was kept very quiet throughout the entire negotiations.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			??? It's being stuck trying to sort Brexit. Just how do YOU suggest they do it? All Corbin does is say the opposite of whatever Boris says no matter what it is.
		
Click to expand...

I have said from 2016 that they will not be able to sort it out because of NI.
Nobody on the Leave side took any notice of the NI border situation.
From a UK perspective if The Tories had listened to the Scots and NI politicians an agreement for England and Wales to Leave the EU would probably have been possible.


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## chrisd (Oct 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have said from 2016 that they will not be able to sort it out because of NI.
Nobody on the Leave side took any notice of the NI border situation.
From a UK perspective if The Tories had listened to the Scots and NI politicians an agreement for England and Wales to Leave the EU would probably have been possible.
		
Click to expand...

If the Tories had a majority there would be no issue it'd be done and dusted. Best Boris goes for a longer extension,  wins a GE with a workable majority  and then leaves with no deal the next day


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## Mudball (Oct 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have said from 2016 that they will not be able to sort it out because of NI.
Nobody on the Leave side took any notice of the NI border situation.
From a UK perspective if The Tories had listened to the Scots and NI politicians an agreement for England and Wales to Leave the EU would probably have been possible.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting.. so devolution and Brexit at the same time.  Could London also opt out of England? It could become a bigger Liechtenstein in the process ..-also the M25 acts as a natural customs border


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BoJo in the House is telling us that if his Deal is voted down or amended then he's pulling it and GE here way come.  Not sure how he'll engineer that but I'm sure he has a Cumming Plan.
		
Click to expand...

I believe he could instigate a 'vote of no confidence'!


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## woody69 (Oct 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats not correct.  Under the new arrangements NI will leave the Customs Union the same as the rest of the UK. Some special arrangements will be made to allow certain goods to be in a regulatory arrangement with The ROI , I think its food and Industrial goods by memory.    This was not the deal in the May arrangement, under that they originally wanted only NI to be in the backstop and May suggested it should apply to the whole of the UK.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you are saying isn't correct? I never said the arrangement to have the backstop in the Irish sea was in the May arrangement. That was the offer made by the EU to May and she rejected it and the EU conceded to include the whole of the UK, so it effectively means that for all Boris' bluster and negotiation he has effectively agreed with the EU something they already offered to us and we rejected as being undemocratic and unconstitutional.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2019)

chrisd said:



			If the Tories had a majority there would be no issue it'd be done and dusted. Best Boris goes for a longer extension,  wins a GE with a workable majority  and then leaves with no deal the next day
		
Click to expand...

If he had a majority can you explain where would that have left NI. ?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 23, 2019)

Do you think he will get a majority at a GE ??


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## woody69 (Oct 23, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Do you think he will get a majority at a GE ??
		
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure. Depends how he plays it, but he will lose some votes to the Brexit party who will no doubt be campaigning on no deal. I'd predict hung parliament with Lib Dems as the kingmakers.


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## robinthehood (Oct 23, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I'm not so sure. Depends how he plays it, but he will lose some votes to the Brexit party who will no doubt be campaigning on no deal. I'd predict hung parliament with Lib Dems as the kingmakers.
		
Click to expand...

Surely the SNP have to feature, they have quite a few seats


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## IanM (Oct 23, 2019)

I don't get how one bit can be approved, but not the timeline.... oh yes, the timeline ends with us leaving.  That's the bit they are blocking!

My prediction still stands


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## harpo_72 (Oct 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Surely the SNP have to feature, they have quite a few seats
		
Click to expand...

It does depend on how Labour intend to fight the GE and it does also question whether the legality of pacts between Farage and Tory party for not contesting areas but this is or has been common practice for a long time.

It really does depend on the voting public accepting that their normal voting strategy needs to be more Brexit focused.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Surely the SNP have to feature, they have quite a few seats
		
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The only way they will feature is if a party agrees to Indy Ref 2. The Cons will not agree to that, they are also so far apart from the SNP it is not feasible, and whilst Lab are not keen on Indy Ref 2 they are desperate for power so may concede. I suspect they would only be approached if all other avenues are exhausted though. Labour would try to link with the Lib Dems first off I suspect so it depends how well they do.

One of the problems, imo, of the SNP's permanently angry approach to Westminster is that they have forgotten that to get what they want they actually need to make some friends there. They are too busy offending the other parties and so when they should be a key playmaker they are still a sideshow. They need to be smarter.


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## patricks148 (Oct 23, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I'm not so sure. Depends how he plays it, but he will lose some votes to the Brexit party who will no doubt be campaigning on no deal. I'd predict hung parliament with Lib Dems as the kingmakers.
		
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Jo Swinton would jump in bed with the Tories in a heartbeat, don't think she will get the chance, i don't think she will still have seat at the next GE


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## IanM (Oct 23, 2019)

They might not want Ref 2 in Scotland after the Poll that was published this morning.

But I guess this is another once in a generation vote that gets repeated till the right answer happens!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Jo Swinton would jump in bed with the Tories in a heartbeat, don't think she will get the chance, i don't think she will still have seat at the next GE
		
Click to expand...

She needs to learn from recent history that would be political suicide .. 
Whats worrying is that Boris does seem to have a following that forgive him all his horrific lying and illegal actions .. but if we are a majority of numpties, I guess that is what we are.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Jo Swinton would jump in bed with the Tories in a heartbeat, don't think she will get the chance, i don't think she will still have seat at the next GE
		
Click to expand...

 don't see that one at all, anyway all her new recruits will get the boot at the next GE.


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## patricks148 (Oct 23, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			She needs to learn from recent history that would be political suicide ..
Whats worrying is that Boris does seem to have a following that forgive him all his horrific lying and illegal actions .. but if we are a majority of numpties, I guess that is what we are.
		
Click to expand...

power hungry is the main thing with her, lets hope the SNP go all out for East Dunbartonshire


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2019)

Could be extremely useful...

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news...he-other-way-in-the-referendum-20191023189999


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 23, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I'm not so sure. Depends how he plays it, but he will lose some votes to the Brexit party who will no doubt be campaigning on no deal. I'd predict hung parliament with Lib Dems as the kingmakers.
		
Click to expand...

Oooo close. Nige will be the "kingmaker" as long as they agree to no deal brexit.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 23, 2019)

never thought this would happen :

Francis Elliott

@elliotttimes

EXCL: I understand Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn are meeting to discuss a new programme motion.


 Wonder if jezza has told the rest of his party


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## harpo_72 (Oct 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			power hungry is the main thing with her, lets hope the SNP go all out for East Dunbartonshire

Click to expand...

That would lead to a rather interesting situation


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 23, 2019)

The SNP should not be bothered about what the UK do, they donâ€™t want to stay in it anyway.
If they backed Boris with a promise to have a Scottish ref when we leave the EU.
They can have a side deal with the EU.
That they will be allowed to rejoin if they vote to leave the UK.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			never thought this would happen :

Francis Elliott
@elliotttimes

EXCL: I understand Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn are meeting to discuss a new programme motion.


Wonder if jezza has told the rest of his party
		
Click to expand...



Hear nothing was agreed at PM-Corbyn meeting - Labour wanted to discuss a different timetable for Brexit bill, govt wanted to know what Lab would do if the extension is vetoed - sounds like neither side came away with much


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## IanM (Oct 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			- Labour wanted to discuss a different timetable for Brexit bill, govt wanted to know what Lab would do if the extension is vetoed - sounds like neither side came away with much
		
Click to expand...

1) Timeline ending in never 
2) Labour get a pasting in a GE


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 23, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I believe he could instigate a 'vote of no confidence'!
		
Click to expand...

Though I understand such a motion could be amended by the opposition.  Now what fun could be had. Propose an amendment that takes control of the date of any subsequent GE out of the gift of the government?  Maybe one that states that the PM has to stand down? Just musing on what could be...ðŸ™‚


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## Mudball (Oct 23, 2019)

Govt folks not happy that Business is not backing them enuf. So you can create a mess and then blame others for not understanding it. 
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/a...s-over-response-to-brexit-deal-121704387.html 

In many ways I think this Govt (and some Leavers) are like modern abstract artist. They made a piece of  fine art called â€˜The Dealâ€™ that only they understand and the installation of which is not much better than existing â€˜T-Rex Dealâ€™ and gives away control while creating an illusion of keeping it.  Now they claim that the plebs - most of who never attended art classes in private schools - donâ€™t appreciate it and therefore should be bulldozed into accepting it (or just have a major tantrum)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 23, 2019)

PMQs - No NI/GB border controls whatsoever - and The Deal - Itâ€™s through parliament.  On the former - not what Barclay has told us; on the latter - The Deal has passed itâ€™s 2nd reading it is not through parliament.

Now either the PM is consciously telling blatant porkies or he just doesnâ€™t understand.  I think he knows heâ€™s just told porkies.  What the heck is going on?  Or maybe the audience heâ€™s actually addressing in the country just doesnâ€™t care


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## Dando (Oct 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Hear nothing was agreed at PM-Corbyn meeting - Labour wanted to discuss a different timetable for Brexit bill, govt wanted to know what Lab would do if the extension is vetoed - sounds like neither side came away with much
		
Click to expand...

Red Jezza has denied being there! ðŸ˜‚


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 23, 2019)

Dando said:



			Red Jezza has denied being there!
		
Click to expand...

A photo will come out in a few days showing that he was there. At which point he'll admit being there but will then say although he was there he didn't take part in any talks.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 23, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186970145857646592


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## woody69 (Oct 23, 2019)

IanM said:



			I don't get how one bit can be approved, but not the timeline.... oh yes, the timeline ends with us leaving.  That's the bit they are blocking!

My prediction still stands
		
Click to expand...

The only thing that was approved was an agreement to further debate the deal. There was absolutely no indication that the majority in fact supported the deal as it was presented yesterday upon voting for whether it should be debated more. All technicalities point to the fact that MPs simply wanted to debate it, not necessarily to pass it. The biggest of these technicalities is the humiliating defeat on the programme motion. Johnson was defeated yesterday, and will never again see a majority in support of a positive motion on that specific agreement as large as last night.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2019)

Jings things seem to be changing oop North.
A friend and a relative, not connected, both staunch Tories all their lives and never miss an opportunity to rubbish my Independence leanings.
Both now saying they will vote for an Independent Scotland.
I did check and Hell has not frozen over.


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## drdel (Oct 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jings things seem to be changing oop North.
A friend and a relative, not connected, both staunch Tories all their lives and never miss an opportunity to rubbish my Independence leanings.
Both now saying they will vote for an Independent Scotland.
I did check and Hell has not frozen over.
		
Click to expand...

So how many drams did it take?


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## drdel (Oct 23, 2019)

I read that the self appointed champion of democracy, Gina Miller, plans to set up a website to give voters advice on tactical voting in a future election !!

It is a wonder some of these people can walk with the massive weight of their huge egos on their shoulders.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though I understand such a motion could be amended by the opposition.  Now what fun could be had. Propose an amendment that takes control of the date of any subsequent GE out of the gift of the government?  Maybe one that states that the PM has to stand down? Just musing on what could be...ðŸ™‚
		
Click to expand...

They currently have have that control - as it (Gov proposing a GE) requires a 2/3rds majority.

As the BoJo's Government is a minority one, they could simply vote against any No Confidence motion. They are actually in a pretty 'good' position imo - Leader excepted - but that could be said about Conservatives too!


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## MegaSteve (Oct 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			I read that the self appointed champion of democracy, Gina Miller, plans to set up a website to give voters advice on tactical voting in a future election !!

It is a wonder some of these people can walk with the massive weight of their huge egos on their shoulders.
		
Click to expand...

I am sure the donations that will have been coming her way will have eased the burden...


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## robinthehood (Oct 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			I read that the self appointed champion of democracy, Gina Miller, plans to set up a website to give voters advice on tactical voting in a future election !!

It is a wonder some of these people can walk with the massive weight of their huge egos on their shoulders.
		
Click to expand...

Good on her. Nice to see democracy at work


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			I read that the self appointed champion of democracy, Gina Miller, plans to set up a website to give voters advice on tactical voting in a future election !!

It is a wonder some of these people can walk with the massive weight of their huge egos on their shoulders.
		
Click to expand...

OK tactic for Scottish Labour and Tory parties at the last GE though.
Pot kettle rtc,


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			So how many drams did it take?
		
Click to expand...

None


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## IanM (Oct 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Both now saying they will vote for an Independent Scotland.
I did check and Hell has not frozen over.
		
Click to expand...

They are in a significant minority then.....


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2019)

Dando said:



			Red Jezza has denied being there!
		
Click to expand...

I'll call 'Twaddle' on that!

FWIW, I believe they meet 'quite frequently' to discuss the Commons schedule! While they may be on opposite sides of The House, I believe their relationship is 'business-like'. Just another demonstration why the snapshot of Commons debates is only a minor part - and a distortion - of the work of Westminister!


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## BrianM (Oct 23, 2019)

Iâ€™ve got to say, depending on what you hear, I personally voted to stay in the UK when the independence card was played and also stay in the EU, looks like Iâ€™m crap at winning votes ðŸ˜‚
Iâ€™d have to seriously consider the independence thing if it came up again.......
I seriously doubt there is a significant minority now for independence after all this carry on.


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## chrisd (Oct 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			If he had a majority can you explain where would that have left NI. ?
		
Click to expand...

Nope


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## Fade and Die (Oct 23, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'll call 'Twaddle' on that!

FWIW, I believe they meet 'quite frequently' to discuss the Commons schedule! While they may be on opposite sides of The House, I believe their relationship is 'business-like'. Just another demonstration why the snapshot of Commons debates is only a minor part - and a distortion - of the work of Westminister!
		
Click to expand...

I think Dando was only joking. No need to Twaddle himðŸ˜

Re a GE, can the tories not draft a one line bill for an Election on a specific date then all they would need would be a simple majority. Think the SNP, the DUP and the Libdems would back it.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 23, 2019)

this made me giggle 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187047172577083393


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## patricks148 (Oct 23, 2019)

BrianM said:



			Iâ€™ve got to say, depending on what you hear, I personally voted to stay in the UK when the independence card was played and also stay in the EU, looks like Iâ€™m crap at winning votes ðŸ˜‚
Iâ€™d have to seriously consider the independence thing if it came up again.......
I seriously doubt there is a significant minority now for independence after all this carry on.
		
Click to expand...

i know lots in the same boat Brian, all voted to stay in the Union, but now say they would vote diff if Indyref2 came about


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I think Dando was only joking. No need to Twaddle himðŸ˜
.../QUOTE]
Perhaps, but I would have expected a Smiley if that was the case - and he'd have got a 'Like' from me for the P-Take! As it is, it looks like the sort of propaganda that pervaded the referendum campaign(s)!



Fade and Die said:



			...
Re a GE, can the tories not draft a one line bill for an Election on a specific date then all they would need would be a simple majority. Think the SNP, the DUP and the Libdems would back it.
		
Click to expand...

No! Outwith  the standard 5 Year cycle, it needs 2/3rds of Commons participants to vote for it - as per 2011 legislation! Labour abstaining would prevent such a bill passing. A No Confidence bill, on the other hand, only requires a simple majority.
		
Click to expand...


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## Dando (Oct 23, 2019)

Smilie added


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## Fade and Die (Oct 23, 2019)

Are you sure the Government cannot draft a one line bill to bring in a new law, and get it passed in a day, similar to the Benn Act? Chap on the radio earlier seemed to think it was possible. Think he was from University if Essex School of Law.

edit. This was meant to have @Foxholer post attached but it disappeared!


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I think Dando was only joking. No need to Twaddle himðŸ˜

Re a GE, can the tories not draft a one line bill for an Election on a specific date then all they would need would be a simple majority. Think the SNP, the DUP and the Libdems would back it.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, why not, worth a try,  though I wouldn't go so far as to say those parties will back it. Maybe they will. 
I wouldn't trust the Libdems on anything at all.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I think Dando was only joking. No need to Twaddle himðŸ˜

Re a GE, can the tories not draft a one line bill for an Election on a specific date then all they would need would be a simple majority. Think the SNP, the DUP and the Libdems would back it.
		
Click to expand...

Quite interesting what Pestin says on itv news in that snp could table a vonc and the Tories could accept.have


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ken Clarke seems to be the only politician in England who knows what occurring.
Says, Johnson's government could not successfully run a whelk stall.

Click to expand...

Because his opponents are pulling every underhand trick in the book to foil him. Not because of policy, but to get us to remain. And Clarke is the biggest remainer  of all, quite content to discard all his loyalty to the Tory party.
And him the Father of the House, and all.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Quite interesting what Pestin says on itv news in that snp could table a vonc and the Tories could accept.have
		
Click to expand...

But without Labour the vonc would not get the two thirds majority would it?


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## spongebob59 (Oct 23, 2019)

Don't know, Pesron seemed to think it could be accepted, rule book seems to have been torn up, I'm sure Berko the impartial can overrule it ðŸ˜†


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			But without Labour the vonc would not get the two thirds majority would it?
		
Click to expand...

I think it's only a GE that needs the 2/3 majority. I think a vote of no confidence only needs a simple majority.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Jo Swinton would jump in bed with the Tories in a heartbeat, don't think she will get the chance, i don't think she will still have seat at the next GE
		
Click to expand...

This self serving Jo Swinson.....
https://nyebevannews.co.uk/swinson-...KremHqUOfkNHtMAWsWhN-9pHay0YG-Qp68Z-ihAG0pmUU

Yup I think so.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 23, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187072208528723968


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## Fade and Die (Oct 23, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187072208528723968

Click to expand...

Why would they though? the Tories would never give them indyref2 and itâ€™s hard to see them strengthening their hand in Parliament. If the GE gives Boris a clear majority and by dint a mandate to Brexit hard what have they got to gain?


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## drdel (Oct 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Why would they though? the Tories would never give them indyref2 and itâ€™s hard to see them strengthening their hand in Parliament. If the GE gives Boris a clear majority and by dint a mandate to Brexit hard what have they got to gain?
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps they hope their 26 seats might given some control, assuming they get back in.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Why would they though? the Tories would never give them indyref2 and itâ€™s hard to see them strengthening their hand in Parliament. If the GE gives Boris a clear majority and by dint a mandate to Brexit hard what have they got to gain?
		
Click to expand...

Somehow I cant see Indyref2 happening.  I see no way that Scotland would be better off in the EU and out of the UK.    I  also think its touch and go whether they would be given membership in the short term or even long come to that, Spain would probably throw in a spanner.


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## Mudball (Oct 23, 2019)

So what is the Labour stance (other than acting as the true opposition and opposing everything that is put in front of them)
Wonâ€™t pass WAB
Donâ€™t want GE
Donâ€™t want Ref2 

Any Labour supporter around want to explain what their plan is (other than oppose)


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## Fade and Die (Oct 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Somehow I cant see Indyref2 happening.  I see no way that Scotland would be better off in the EU and out of the UK.    I  also think its touch and go whether they would be given membership in the short term or even long come to that, Spain would probably throw in a spanner.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with all your points (but I know a certain  Scot Nat that will be throwing down the pipes to bash out on his phone a response with links to wings to dismiss it all) so what would be the SNPs motives to help Boris?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2019)

Mudball said:



			So what is the Labour stance (other than acting as the true opposition and opposing everything that is put in front of them)
Wonâ€™t pass WAB
Donâ€™t want GE
Donâ€™t want Ref2

Any Labour supporter around want to explain what their plan is (other than oppose)
		
Click to expand...

To speak like a Dalek with comedy glasses that keep falling down,  vote down any deal then negotiate your own, then vote against that.  Did I mention wrecking the country if they get in, if not they will wreck the country if they get in.  Probably forgot something else, Oh yes, lots more tax and immigration.


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## ger147 (Oct 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Why would they though? the Tories would never give them indyref2 and itâ€™s hard to see them strengthening their hand in Parliament. If the GE gives Boris a clear majority and by dint a mandate to Brexit hard what have they got to gain?
		
Click to expand...

What they have to gain is a load of seats if the current opinion polls are in any way accurate. The SNP are way out in front at the moment.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			To speak like a Dalek with comedy glasses that keep falling down,  vote down any deal then negotiate your own, then vote against that.  Did I mention wrecking the country if they get in, if not they will wreck the country if they get in.  Probably forgot something else, Oh yes, lots more tax and immigration.
		
Click to expand...

 that is pure â€œproject fearâ€ complete speculation based on Tory right wing spin.Only a labour insider will know the answers.


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Oct 24, 2019)

I'm picturing a scenario where the Scots somehow get an Indy Ref 2, win it and then the Government refuses to implement it.  And wee Burnie absolutely goes off on one claiming that people should respect the majority vote in a referendum.


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			that is pure â€œproject fearâ€ complete speculation based on Tory right wing spin.Only a labour insider will know the answers.
		
Click to expand...

Rather than label it project fear, why not have a read of Labour's manifesto. It clearly states it will increase Income Tax. It clearly states it will increase Corporation Tax. It is rebranding PFI to PCI via a new national bank. It says it will renationalise the railways and the Royal Mail. It will complete HS2, and extend it and the rail networks. It says it will reduce the deficit in 5 years. There's a whole host of 'projects' lined up, all of which will have a cost.

It then comes down to our own intelligence to try and determine how that is affordable. The easiest numbers to work with are those around the deficit. Divide the current deficit by 5 years. To clear that number alone is pure pie in the sky. To clear that number and maintain/increase govt spending is hysterical.

The value of the denationalised industries is easily calculated, i.e. share price times the number of shares issued. How Labour would service their suggested govt bond scheme is questionable but, again, its up to individuals to determine its viability.

Anyway, I digress. That brings me back to the first sentence, "why not have a read of Labour's own manifesto." That isn't project fear, that's their project fact.


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## Dando (Oct 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			that is pure â€œproject fearâ€ complete speculation based on Tory right wing spin.Only a labour insider will know the answers.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


----------



## Colonel Bogey (Oct 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Jings things seem to be changing oop North.
A friend and a relative, not connected, both staunch Tories all their lives and never miss an opportunity to rubbish my Independence leanings.
Both now saying they will vote for an Independent Scotland.
I did check and Hell has not frozen over.
		
Click to expand...

If a ref was held tomorrow, my bet is that Scotland would vote out of the UK due to the mess we are in. This would help Boris to get out without a deal (but I'm not sure he wants this). Oh well.  I had a long chat with the misses about leaving the country last night. We're both fed up with the whole thing and the deal on the table is utter poo and we would be better in than out with it! Â£39 billion and no say in anything. Just who the hell would do that?


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## Fade and Die (Oct 24, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			If a ref was held tomorrow, my bet is that Scotland would vote out of the UK due to the mess we are in. This would help Boris to get out without a deal (but I'm not sure he wants this). Oh well.  I had a long chat with the misses about leaving the country last night. We're both fed up with the whole thing and the deal on the table is utter poo and we would be better in than out with it! Â£39 billion and no say in anything. Just who the hell would do that?
		
Click to expand...

Feel free to leave at any time...remember people are literally dying to get into this country so it cannot be too bad.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Are you sure the Government cannot draft a one line bill to bring in a new law, and get it passed in a day, similar to the Benn Act? Chap on the radio earlier seemed to think it was possible. Think he was from University if Essex School of Law.

edit. This was meant to have @Foxholer post attached but it disappeared!
		
Click to expand...

No idea where that post went!

Anyway, the guy on the radio is correct about the ability to do that! But hadn't thought about the (im)practicality of doing so!

The opposition is currently 'in control' of the agenda in that (call for GE) regard! They almost certainly believe it's in their interest to keep that control at the moment - fpr whatever plan they have.


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## Mudball (Oct 24, 2019)

An excellent article about the 'Framing of the Brexit Debate'.  How the Media is shaping the narrative and wiping up the Brexit agenda without proper debate.   A good read *even if you are a Brexiteer *- it makes you think if you have been played by Politicians and the Media and then think who should you believe.  

We have been here before as there are few parallels with the Iraq war: the fake deadline to dodge scrutiny, broadcasters repeating government claims uncritically and the implication that anyone who demurs is unpatriotic...   (Remember how you felt about Iraq when Blair first took us in - it was a national duty; and how do you feel about it in hindsight when no WMDs were found)

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/10/brexit-journalism-failure/600580/


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

Mudball said:



			An excellent article about the 'Framing of the Brexit Debate'.  How the Media is shaping the narrative and wiping up the Brexit agenda without proper debate.   A good read *even if you are a Brexiteer *- it makes you think if you have been played by Politicians and the Media and then think who should you believe. 

We have been here before as there are few parallels with the Iraq war: the fake deadline to dodge scrutiny, broadcasters repeating government claims uncritically and the implication that anyone who demurs is unpatriotic...   (Remember how you felt about Iraq when Blair first took us in - it was a national duty; and how do you feel about it in hindsight when no WMDs were found)

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/10/brexit-journalism-failure/600580/

Click to expand...

Not the first article in this vein. The article I read highlighted the emotive language like "crash out" and "cliff edge" as putting a negative spin on the debate, sometimes without foundation.

As for the Iraq war; I felt it was an illegal war based on the fact that the US and the UK jumped in without UN approval. If weapons had been found would it have been a justification? Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I still think the decision making process was horrendously flawed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I'm picturing a scenario where the Scots somehow get an Indy Ref 2, win it and then the Government refuses to implement it.  And wee Burnie absolutely goes off on one claiming that people should respect the majority vote in a referendum.
		
Click to expand...

Any Indyref2 Act could state that the government would immediately implement the result of the referendum.  Such a clause was included in the AV Referendum Act, but, for reasons that are not clear, one was not included in the EU Referendum.


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## drdel (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Any Indyref2 Act could state that the government would immediately implement the result of the referendum.  Such a clause was included in the AV Referendum Act, but, for reasons that are not clear, one was not included in the EU Referendum.
		
Click to expand...

I'd like to think you might be right (if it happened). However the chances the current crowd of MPs would get a majority in the HoC agreeing to commit to *anything* connected to the EU seems very remote.


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## Jimaroid (Oct 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			The opposition is currently 'in control' of the agenda in that (call for GE) regard! They almost certainly believe it's in their interest to keep that control at the moment - fpr whatever plan they have.
		
Click to expand...

As I understand it, yes, the issues the government has in tabling a bill for a general election is that it's an uncertain timeline requiring HoC, HoL and Royal Assent that can get amended on the way E.g., amended to have a second referendum or to revoke A50 or change the voting age or whatever other scheme is dreamt up. So it's doubtful they'll use that option.

The most likely route appears to be another FTPA vote hoping they can get the 2/3's majority. Current numbers look very close on that succeeding but the sands shift hourly.

The remaining options are votes of no confidence, either tabled by Labour or the government against themselves. It seems an unfavourable option whichever way its done, it would mean the formation of an alternative government from opposition parties and a gamble on what occurs in the 14 day time limit for failing to form one, then five weeks before an automatic general election under the FTPA rules. Again, the government doesn't have control over any of that once in motion.

For all the talk of the government playing a clever strategy in four dimensional chess they have failed to see the one dimensional stalemate one move away. They have put control into the hands of the opposition parties. The Emperor is naked. 

As I understand it all anyway.


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## chrisd (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Any Indyref2 Act could state that the government would immediately implement the result of the referendum.  Such a clause was included in the AV Referendum Act, but, for reasons that are not clear, one was not included in the EU Referendum.
		
Click to expand...

I guess the reason being, that when the EU referendum was announced that referendum's were very rare and at that the previous one had been enacted as it was democratic and democracy meant something back in the 70's. All the shenanigans since are a pretty new phenomenon and the fact that parliamentarians are now NOT willing to act democratically, but they will get there comeuppance very soon!


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2019)

Jimaroid said:



			...
The most likely route appears to be another FTPA vote hoping they can get the 2/3's majority. Current numbers look very close on that succeeding but the sands shift hourly.
...
		
Click to expand...

That 2/3rds majority is of 'all eligible members', not simply those that vote! So all Labour, et al, have to do is vote against, or simply abstain, sufficiently and the bill fails!

That's exactly what happened when BoJo tried it in September! He got nowhere near the required 2/3rds!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			that is pure â€œproject fearâ€ complete speculation based on Tory right wing spin.Only a labour insider will know the answers.
		
Click to expand...

Which bit is 'project fear' Corbyns glasses, his Dalek tones, ruining the ecconomy, increased taxation, negotiating a new Labour deal then voting against it ?   Get a grip ðŸ™ƒ


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think it's only a GE that needs the 2/3 majority. I think a vote of no confidence only needs a simple majority.
		
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Correct!

But Conservatives don't have a majority to guarantee it would pass - having chucked several of their own away by 'removing the Whip' from them! And there could well be a seriously negative consequence to 'calling a vote of no confidence' in your own Government! Labour could/should have a PR field day on variations of that theme - purely technical requirement or not!


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2019)

another one for the Jo Swinsons fans out there

https://evolvepolitics.com/jo-swins...0P7WTdvuygWH7dGPgy5x7XX56a7jyRSsQSs_uXyYikOmg


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## robinthehood (Oct 24, 2019)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...y-with-instead-of-this-bllocks-20191024190034


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## harpo_72 (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Rather than label it project fear, why not have a read of Labour's manifesto. It clearly states it will increase Income Tax. It clearly states it will increase Corporation Tax. It is rebranding PFI to PCI via a new national bank. It says it will renationalise the railways and the Royal Mail. It will complete HS2, and extend it and the rail networks. It says it will reduce the deficit in 5 years. There's a whole host of 'projects' lined up, all of which will have a cost.

It then comes down to our own intelligence to try and determine how that is affordable. The easiest numbers to work with are those around the deficit. Divide the current deficit by 5 years. To clear that number alone is pure pie in the sky. To clear that number and maintain/increase govt spending is hysterical.

The value of the denationalised industries is easily calculated, i.e. share price times the number of shares issued. How Labour would service their suggested govt bond scheme is questionable but, again, its up to individuals to determine its viability.

Anyway, I digress. That brings me back to the first sentence, "why not have a read of Labour's own manifesto." That isn't project fear, that's their project fact.
		
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Itâ€™s project fear because itâ€™s an assumption that it could all be bad for us. It neglects to account for the current restrictions on spending and the deteriorating services that require fixing. Of cause we can opt into lower tax, because it suits us as a person is fine but we will run down the country and there is a possibility of the divides between the wealthy and poor becoming greater.
As long as we all understand that not all things are bad in their manifesto and they are attempting to repair the neglect of the current and previous caretakers. It might not be all palatable but the HoC will determine most of what is acceptable.


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## drdel (Oct 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s project fear because itâ€™s an assumption that it could all be bad for us. It neglects to account for the current restrictions on spending and the deteriorating services that require fixing. Of cause we can opt into lower tax, because it suits us as a person is fine but we will run down the country and there is a possibility of the divides between the wealthy and poor becoming greater.
As long as we all understand that not all things are bad in their manifesto and they are attempting to repair the neglect of the current and previous caretakers. It might not be all palatable but the HoC will determine most of what is acceptable.
		
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Based on current GDP and growth forecasts their plans are unaffordable.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Not the first article in this vein. The article I read highlighted the emotive language like "crash out" and "cliff edge" as putting a negative spin on the debate, sometimes without foundation.

As for the Iraq war; I felt it was an illegal war based on the fact that the US and the UK jumped in without UN approval. If weapons had been found would it have been a justification? Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I still think the decision making process was horrendously flawed.
		
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I think the UK was beholden to the US .. some stuff outstanding from history. I would seriously step back on that one and think about the future relationship with the US.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			Based on current GDP and growth forecasts their plans are unaffordable.
		
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The forecasts are pretty hamstrung by the current situation and the speculation on what is coming.
I would expect a good economist to cut the budget to meet the situation.
In my life time I have not witnessed a Tory economic policy of note .. I am not a believer that selling off assets is a great policy. So I wonâ€™t vote Tory unless they get someone with a clue


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## drdel (Oct 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The forecasts are pretty hamstrung by the current situation and the speculation on what is coming.
I would expect a good economist to cut the budget to meet the situation.
In my life time I have not witnessed a Tory economic policy of note .. I am not a believer that selling off assets is a great policy. So I wonâ€™t vote Tory unless they get someone with a clue
		
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Whatever. IMO, as an economist, the level of growth Labour would need would be higher than anything we've seen in decades - its dreamland stuff.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 24, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			another one for the Jo Swinsons fans out there

https://evolvepolitics.com/jo-swins...0P7WTdvuygWH7dGPgy5x7XX56a7jyRSsQSs_uXyYikOmg

Click to expand...

I can't believe anyone would seriously quote Evolve Politics as a source. 

How that publication has the temerity to present itself as a vehicle for independent coverage of the news beggars belief.


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			I can't believe anyone would seriously quote Evolve Politics as a source.

How that publication has the temerity to present itself as a vehicle for independent coverage of the news beggars belief.
		
Click to expand...

its not true then?


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## Mudball (Oct 24, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			another one for the Jo Swinsons fans out there

https://evolvepolitics.com/jo-swins...0P7WTdvuygWH7dGPgy5x7XX56a7jyRSsQSs_uXyYikOmg

Click to expand...

i think Lib Dems are the only choice of those who want to stay..  if they voted the same way as the refererdum, then they get about 49% of votes + any swing votes + any young votes (who are apparently pro-eu).  That might make her a substantially a very strong position.  How this translates to seats in the FPTP system remains to be seen.    The Anti-EU brigade is split bit Tory, Brexit Party.  Labour remains a floater


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think the UK was beholden to the US .. some stuff outstanding from history. I would seriously step back on that one and think about the future relationship with the US.
		
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I think that was more to do with the God complex that Blair has. So disappointing as I felt he was a breath of fresh air to UK politics, but like so many once he'd had power for a while he felt he could do no wrong... power corrupts (even the best?).


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 24, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			its not true then?
		
Click to expand...

Only in as far as reporting the vote. The level of spin placed upon it would do credit to The Daily Mail.


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s project fear because itâ€™s an assumption that it could all be bad for us. It neglects to account for the current restrictions on spending and the deteriorating services that require fixing. Of cause we can opt into lower tax, because it suits us as a person is fine but we will run down the country and there is a possibility of the divides between the wealthy and poor becoming greater.
As long as we all understand that not all things are bad in their manifesto and they are attempting to repair the neglect of the current and previous caretakers. It might not be all palatable but the HoC will determine most of what is acceptable.
		
Click to expand...

Who said anything about it neglects the current restrictions on spending and the deteriorating services? Austerity has gone way too far, and even some Tories have said that. But you fail to consider the affordability of LAbour's manifesto 'promises.' Who said anything about lower taxes? Labour's manifesto talks about raising taxes.

Almost sounds like you've already made up your mind about voting Labour without questioning the affordability. I'm with you on finding a more socialist path but I want to see if its affordable before I vote, not vote for them because it looks pretty and glitters in the sunlight.


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Only in as far as reporting the vote. The level of spin placed upon it would do credit to The Daily Mail.
		
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thats the only bit i was interested in her vote...and that why i posted it


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 24, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			thats the only bit i was interested in her vote...and that why i posted it
		
Click to expand...

So no interest in balance or the full story. 

What next? Wings Over Scotland?


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Only in as far as reporting the vote. The level of spin placed upon it would do credit to The Daily Mail.
		
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That's some feat!!


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			So no interest in balance or the full story.

What next? Wings Over Scotland?
		
Click to expand...

Lol get a grip, a factule peice of news was all it was aor are you a JS fan??


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think that was more to do with the God complex that Blair has. So disappointing as I felt he was a breath of fresh air to UK politics, but like so many once he'd had power for a while he felt he could do no wrong... power corrupts (even the best?).
		
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And he - along with 'his own Lady MacBeth' were nowhere near 'the best'! Certainly he was a charismatic leader. But, for me, still not forgiven for the death of an eminent scientist and civil servant - David Kelly CMG!

But at least he was able to get Labour elected without being totally controlled by 'the Unions'!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I'm picturing a scenario where the Scots somehow get an Indy Ref 2, win it and then the Government refuses to implement it.  And wee Burnie absolutely goes off on one claiming that people should respect the majority vote in a referendum.
		
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Fade and Die said:



			Feel free to leave at any time...remember people are literally dying to get into this country so it cannot be too bad.
		
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We are trying to leave the UK, but for some strange reason most of  the Westminster politicians are desperate to cling on to us.
Something fishy about that as, according to many of them, they subsidise us to the hilt.


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## ger147 (Oct 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We are trying to leave the UK...
		
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No we're not...


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			So no interest in balance or the full story.

What next? Wings Over Scotland?
		
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Jeez man keep up. Wings is now sooo yesterday.


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## drdel (Oct 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We are trying to leave the UK, but for some strange reason most of  the Westminster politicians are desperate to cling on to us.
Something fishy about that as, according to many of them, they subsidise us to the hilt.

Click to expand...

Just perhaps there is a sense of loyalty to the union that is the UK.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We are trying to leave the UK, but for some strange reason most of  the Westminster politicians are desperate to cling on to us.
Something fishy about that as, according to many of them, they subsidise us to the hilt.

Click to expand...


Why have you quoted my post which was aimed at Colonel Bogey who was griping about the UK? Attention seeking much?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			Just perhaps there is a sense of loyalty to the union that is the UK.
		
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To be honest I am not feeling much loyalty towards the Scottish people coming from Johnson and his fellow right wingers.
They were also happy to throw NI under the Â£39b bus.
Most of their time seems to be spent in actions that will clearly break up the UK.


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			...a factual piece of news...
		
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Two barely connected descriptions these day!


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			And he - along with 'his own Lady MacBeth' were nowhere near 'the best'! Certainly he was a charismatic leader. But, for me, still not forgiven for the death of an eminent scientist and civil servant - David Kelly CMG!

But at least he was able to get Labour elected without being totally controlled by 'the Unions'!
		
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Did you miss the ???? at the end of "even the best" and, of course, you know I was referring to Blair in that comment

Nice to see you're still making best use of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## spongebob59 (Oct 24, 2019)

Laura Kuenssberg

@bbclaurak
Â·
11m

We are going to hear a lot of this in next 72 hours before election vote on Monday - SNP and LIb Dems might be keen for election, but if PM doesn't have Labour on board he doesn't get to two thirds majority he needs to do under Fixed Term Parliament Act - there are other ways tho


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2019)

drdel said:



			Just perhaps there is a sense of loyalty to the union that is the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Reading that, the word 'Jack' sprang instantly to mind, but I'm not sure for which of a couple reasons!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Who said anything about it neglects the current restrictions on spending and the deteriorating services? Austerity has gone way too far, and even some Tories have said that. But you fail to consider the affordability of LAbour's manifesto 'promises.' Who said anything about lower taxes? Labour's manifesto talks about raising taxes.

Almost sounds like you've already made up your mind about voting Labour without questioning the affordability. I'm with you on finding a more socialist path but I want to see if its affordable before I vote, not vote for them because it looks pretty and glitters in the sunlight.
		
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No I am voting liberal, Corbyn is too far left for most to be an acceptable offering. Plus he has not got his defined position on Brexit. I suspect that his wants are not financially viable but how aware are they on the actual state of the economy.. who knows. Like I said he would not have a free reign to change things without some HoC intervention.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2019)

And so in lead up to a proposed December GE on or around the 12th December, parliament has to approve Johnson's deal by 6th November.  Ah well.  We here all knew all along that Johnson couldn't actually *guarantee *that UK would leave the EU on the 31st October - and that what he was saying was just a negotiating ploy all along and not to actually be believed.

Well - I suspect that everybody here knew that.  But I am not so sure that everyone out there had the same understanding of what Johnson was up to as we here have - and suspect that many Leave voters believed Johnson's promise (the Tory Party members for one group certainly did) - why wouldn't  they...and so they will blame (and are blaming) anyone and everything but Boris for not hitting his promised date.  Yes - parliament has stopped him - but he was being disingenuous in ever die-in-a-ditch promising that he would.  But that wasn't the point of the promise.  I am guessing that he knew fine well that he probably wouldn't hit the date - but he also knew that if he didn't it wouldn't be seen as his fault.  Don't you just love this shambles.

Anyway - enough of my despairing over Johnson.

Word has it that the SNP won't go for an election in the vote next week?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We are trying to leave the UK, but for some strange reason most of  the Westminster politicians are desperate to cling on to us.
Something fishy about that as, according to many of them, they subsidise us to the hilt.

Click to expand...

Who is this â€œweâ€ you are referring too ?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think that was more to do with the God complex that Blair has. So disappointing as I felt he was a breath of fresh air to UK politics, but like so many once he'd had power for a while he felt he could do no wrong... power corrupts (even the best?).
		
Click to expand...

He was a breath of fresh air.
Did he become corrupted, donâ€™t know but he did fall out with the sun and the gutter press turned on him.


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Did you miss the ???? at the end of "even the best" and, of course, you know I was referring to Blair in that comment
...
		
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Whether you were or weren't refering to Blair was irrelevant for my post!


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## Slime (Oct 24, 2019)

Mudball said:



			i think Lib Dems are the only choice of those who want to stay..  if they voted the same way as the refererdum, then they get about 49% of votes + any swing votes + any young votes (who are apparently pro-eu).  That might make her a substantially a very strong position.  How this translates to seats in the FPTP system remains to be seen.    The Anti-EU brigade is split bit Tory, Brexit Party.  *Labour remains a floater*

Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth!


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so in lead up to a proposed December GE on or around the 12th December, parliament has to approve Johnson's deal by 6th November.  Ah well.  We here all knew all along that Johnson couldn't actually *guarantee *that UK would leave the EU on the 31st October - and that what he was saying was just a negotiating ploy all along and not to actually be believed.

Well - I suspect that everybody here knew that.  But I am not so sure that everyone out there had the same understanding of what Johnson was up to as we here have - and suspect that many Leave voters bought into the Johnson's promise - and so they will blame (and are blaming) anyone and everything but Boris for not hitting his promised date.  Yes - parliament has stopped him - but he was being disingenuous in ever die-in-a-ditch promising that he would.  But that wasn't the point of the promise.  I am guessing that he knew fine well that he probably wouldn't hit the date - but he also knew that if he didn't it wouldn't be seen as his fault.  Don't you just love this shambles.

Anyway - enough of my despairing over Johnson.

Word has it that the SNP won't go for an election in the vote next week?
		
Click to expand...

So you "suspect," and you're "not sure," and you're "guessing." But you assume "we all here knew," and "everyone here knew that."

Lottery numbers please... nowt changes.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 24, 2019)

Lib Dems - like the SNP - waiting to see extension details before backing election. 

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I never thought I would see the Scottish Nationalist Party wishing the Tories would stay in office [by denying an election].


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No I am voting liberal, Corbyn is too far left for most to be an acceptable offering. Plus he has not got his defined position on Brexit. I suspect that his wants are not financially viable but how aware are they on the actual state of the economy.. who knows. Like I said he would not have a free reign to change things without some HoC intervention.
		
Click to expand...

I'd like to vote Labour, and suspect it won't be the LibDems as it usually is. Sad times, sad, sad times.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			So you "suspect," and you're "not sure," and you're "guessing." But you assume "we all here knew," and "everyone here knew that."

Lottery numbers please... nowt changes.
		
Click to expand...

Come on Bri - none of us know what is going to happen or why.  And I am simply expressing my feeling for what is going on and why Johnson *guaranteed *the 31st date when he knew he couldn't actually do so - and that is a fact.  

And I am making an assumption that everyone who is on this forum and the Brexit threads is pretty well up with most of what has been going on and why - at least as best as we can guess or understand.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'd like to vote Labour, and suspect it won't be the LibDems as it usually is. Sad times, sad, sad times.
		
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Snap - but can't with Corbyn - so would most probably be voting LibDem.  If the National Health Action Party doesn't put up a candidate Hunt could be run quite close.

Enjoying Farage on LBC at the moment ... a 6th Nov Brexit might well scupper him in a 12th December GE.  And what a surprise - he is 100% vehement against Johnson's BRINO deal.  He's having to argue with Leave voters ... for just about the first time in the all the time he's been doing the phone-in - correcting them for their misunderstandings and confusion over what Johnson is up to and what his Deal means.  Current caller is a strong Leave voters telling Johnson that the electorate didn't really understand the issues enough and it needs to be MPs as they are paid to understand this complex stuff.  Bit of a dilemma for Farage having to argue with potential BP supporters.

And Farage is having a real go at the 'Let's Get This Done' slogan...and he is right.  Agreeing the deal is only the end of the beginning...and Farage knows that and he is telling that to everyone who will listen...


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## spongebob59 (Oct 24, 2019)

Moreover remainers in Parliament are risking scoring a HUGE own goal and playing into govtâ€™s hands. Dismiss an election now and message to the EU is donâ€™t bother with January extension, might as well only offer a short one. This could well be Downing Stâ€™s calculation.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 24, 2019)

Most people vote for Labour in support of an ideology they unfortunately abandoned years ago. They are no longer the party for the traditional working class.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 24, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Moreover remainers in Parliament are risking scoring a HUGE own goal and playing into govtâ€™s hands. Dismiss an election now and message to the EU is donâ€™t bother with January extension, might as well only offer a short one. This could well be Downing Stâ€™s calculation.
		
Click to expand...

But are they? Time will tell. Might as well have a little gamble on it


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Come on Bri - none of us know what is going to happen or why.  And I am simply expressing my feeling for what is going on and why Johnson *guaranteed *the 31st date when he knew he couldn't actually do so - and that is a fact. 

And I am making an assumption that everyone who is on this forum and the Brexit threads is pretty well up with most of what has been going on and why - at least as best as we can guess or understand.
		
Click to expand...

Hugh, maybe you don't see it. Maybe its clumsiness on your part, but you 'sell' so much as fact. I picked up on something yesterday or the day before which was so obviously an assumption, and I let it go. By all means continue to post in a similar vein but I will guarantee you you will continue to get crucified for it. By all means post up opinions, but say they are your opinions. Argue your opinions supported by facts and I'd hope you will get a genuine debate.

Think about it. The Leave and Remain campaigns were to a large extent full of lies and half truths. So many opinions from experts were based on lies and half truths. If you are going to peddle half truths and opinions as black and white facts, what will people think? What will people come back at you with? And if you carry out character assassinations of some politicians who are golden in the eyes of some, what sort of response do you expect will come back at you?

Until Boris Johnson has a healthy track record behind him I'll continue to believe he's a Trump-lite but you won't see me posting up the vile assassinations you post up. You will, on occasion, see me post up comments about wee Krankie but only as a direct response to some of the stuff the village idiot posts up. As much as I don't like her or the majority of her politics, I respect her as a damn good politician - the SNP's record in elections says they've got it pretty much spot on.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 24, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			Lol get a grip, a factule peice of news was all it was aor are you a JS fan??
		
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No fan of any politician or party, just despise publications such as Evolve Politics who present themselves as independent when that could not be further from the truth.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 24, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187477927107026949


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Come on Bri - none of us know what is going to happen or why.  And I am simply expressing my feeling for what is going on and why Johnson *guaranteed *the 31st date when he knew he couldn't actually do so - and that is a fact.

And I am making an assumption that everyone who is on this forum and the Brexit threads is pretty well up with most of what has been going on and why - at least as best as we can guess or understand.
		
Click to expand...

You do have the cheek of the devil!
You are calling BJ out as a liar because he said he would leave EU on 31st, though he knew he couldn't.
Rubbish. It is clear to any independent fair minded observer that he would have left, (a) if he got a deal, or (b) if he didn't, because he was prepared to go whichever way it went. The negotiations would go to the UKs satisfaction , or they wouldn't, either way he would go.
The HoC knew that too, and so they, being mainly remainders, ( and no doubt after much legal searching) lit upon the idea that to stop him they needed to create a scenario that would make him a criminal if he went ahead true to his word. So they did just that. They created and passed a law.
And they knew also that no Prime Minister would openly and clearly break the law.
So they stitched him up.Gave him no choice but to write the letter.
And for that you call him a liar. 
Jeez!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You do have the cheek of the devil!
You are calling BJ out as a liar because he said he would leave EU on 31st, though he knew he couldn't.
Rubbish. It is clear to any independent fair minded observer that he would have left, (a) if he got a deal, or (b) if he didn't, because he was prepared to go whichever way it went. The negotiations would go to the UKs satisfaction , or they wouldn't, either way he would go.
The HoC knew that too, and so they, being mainly remainders, ( and no doubt after much legal searching) lit upon the idea that to stop him they needed to create a scenario that would make him a criminal if he went ahead true to his word. So they did just that. They created and passed a law.
And they knew also that no Prime Minister would openly and clearly break the law.
So they stitched him up.Gave him no choice but to write the letter.
And for that you call him a liar.
Jeez!
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. Also by making the EU believe he might leave with no deal made them change their minds regarding the previous WA being sealed and not subject to change.  SILH has no real concept of negotiating strategy.


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## Wilson (Oct 25, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You do have the cheek of the devil!
You are calling BJ out as a liar because he said he would leave EU on 31st, though he knew he couldn't.
Rubbish. It is clear to any independent fair minded observer that he would have left, (a) if he got a deal, or (b) if he didn't, because he was prepared to go whichever way it went. The negotiations would go to the UKs satisfaction , or they wouldn't, either way he would go.
The HoC knew that too, and so they, being mainly remainders, ( and no doubt after much legal searching) lit upon the idea that to stop him they needed to create a scenario that would make him a criminal if he went ahead true to his word. So they did just that. They created and passed a law.
And they knew also that no Prime Minister would openly and clearly break the law.
So they stitched him up.Gave him no choice but to write the letter.
And for that you call him a liar.
Jeez!
		
Click to expand...

BJ is a liar, itâ€™s well documented he is, long before be become PM.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Exactly. Also by making the EU believe he might leave with no deal made them change their minds regarding the previous WA being sealed and not subject to change.  SILH has no real concept of negotiating strategy.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s not a game here itâ€™s 50+million people and their livelihoods. Itâ€™s evident that BJ was well out of his depth as are the people who think this is a game.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s not a game here itâ€™s 50+million people and their livelihoods. Itâ€™s evident that BJ was well out of his depth as are the people who think this is a game.
		
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Who said its a game? And where is the definitive proof that BJ is out of his depth?

Like him or not it would appear that the his strategy got the EU to reopen the WA and change the backstop. And his strategy appears to have made the EU want the extension rather than draw a line under Oct 31st and say No Deal.

Bearing in mind the whole bloody mess, he's not done a bad job in 85 days.


----------



## harpo_72 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Who said its a game? And where is the definitive proof that BJ is out of his depth?

Like him or not it would appear that the his strategy got the EU to reopen the WA and change the backstop. And his strategy appears to have made the EU want the extension rather than draw a line under Oct 31st and say No Deal.

Bearing in mind the whole bloody mess, he's not done a bad job in 85 days.
		
Click to expand...

Referring to winning and losing, talking about a 17.6million and leave means leave .. does suggest that the complexity has gone over peopleâ€™s head and their behaviours on here have shown that they think the negotiations are mono dimensional. BJ has managed to break the law, and is attempting to blackmail the HoC, he is also trying to force through a deal that was worse than Mayâ€™s .. The EU have given him the slack and been very polite, because they know he is reckless and untrustworthy.. they are enjoying seeing if he can fool the HoC and then the general public.


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Referring to winning and losing, talking about a 17.6million and leave means leave .. does suggest that the complexity has gone over peopleâ€™s head and their behaviours on here have shown that they think the negotiations are mono dimensional. BJ has managed to break the law, and is attempting to blackmail the HoC, he is also trying to force through a deal that was worse than Mayâ€™s .. The EU have given him the slack and been very polite, because they know he is reckless and untrustworthy.. they are enjoying seeing if he can fool the HoC and then the general public.
		
Click to expand...

"they are enjoying seeing if he can fool the HoC..." 

Really? 

To use your own words, "its not a game."


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## harpo_72 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			"they are enjoying seeing if he can fool the HoC..."

Really?

To use your own words, "its not a game."
		
Click to expand...

For them more so than us.. they have little to lose. A dissenting voice in their parliament, constant visits from a serial liar and the UK press every where - generally obstructing day to day business. Oh and 39 billion .. which can be picked up elsewhere in reality.. so more of a game for them.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 25, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Lib Dems - like the SNP - waiting to see extension details before backing election.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I never thought I would see the Scottish Nationalist Party wishing the Tories would stay in office [by denying an election].
		
Click to expand...


It is a total Win Win for the SNP.
The longer Johnson is shown up as a hopeless bumbling fool who continues to spout anti Scottish rubbish then the greater support rises for Scottish Independence.
He is by far the best recruitment tool [sic] in the SNP's box.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who is this â€œweâ€ you are referring too ?
		
Click to expand...

Apologies, lazy keyboard work.

It should have said 'at least 50% of the Scottish voting public'.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Apologies, lazy keyboard work.

It should have said 'at least 50% of the Scottish voting public'.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-switching-to-support-the-union-1-5030614/amp

Maybe you should have gone on a fact finding mission first


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## woody69 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Who said its a game? And where is the definitive proof that BJ is out of his depth?

Like him or not it would appear that the his strategy got the EU to reopen the WA and change the backstop. And his strategy appears to have made the EU want the extension rather than draw a line under Oct 31st and say No Deal.

Bearing in mind the whole bloody mess, he's not done a bad job in 85 days.
		
Click to expand...

You think he's not done a bad job? I'm not sure how he could have done much worse


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You think he's not done a bad job? I'm not sure how he could have done much worse
		
Click to expand...

More to the point can you name  an MP who would have done better - with the same tactics that the HoC have used against the PM.


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## robinthehood (Oct 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			More to the point can you name  an MP who would have done better - with the same tactics that the HoC have used against the PM.
		
Click to expand...

A tin of  spam,  a shoe? Id take either of those as PM over Boris.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

woody69 said:



			You think he's not done a bad job? I'm not sure how he could have done much worse
		
Click to expand...

He got them to reopen the un-openable WA, you know the one they said time and again wasn't openable. He got the backstop changed, you know the one they said they wouldn't budge on. He got Parliament to agree the deal in principle, just not the timetable. He's got a Cabinet, which BTW does include Remainers, to operate as a team.

Do I agree with it, and Brexit as a whole? No, but I recognise he's done more than his predecessor by some margin and in a very short timeframe. Some people wouldn't accept a single thing he does because of who he is, what he's done in the past and what he represents. That's just narrow minded and blinkered.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			More to the point can you name  an MP who would have done better - with the same tactics that the HoC have used against the PM.
		
Click to expand...

Mhairi Black, she would have had then soiling their keeks.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-switching-to-support-the-union-1-5030614/amp

Maybe you should have gone on a fact finding mission first
		
Click to expand...

Quoting the 'Hootsmon' 
Your credibility would have been higher if you quoted the Morning Star.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

Wilson said:



			BJ is a liar, itâ€™s well documented he is, long before be become PM.
		
Click to expand...

Thats a crude insult to make, I could say that every politician was a liar but such comments are lazy and knee jerk.  Boris has some good attributes and some failings just like you and I and every other person so try a bit harder with your put downs.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quoting the 'Hootsmon' 
Your credibility would have been higher if you quoted the Morning Star.
		
Click to expand...

How about this one 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....tish-independence-with-only-40-in-favour/amp/

Or this one 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...referendum-have-changed-their-minds-hb9tk2f0x

Or this one 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ce-group-backfires-reveals-support-union/amp/

All are reporting the same thing - a poll that was started by a â€œPro Independenceâ€ group to show support for Independence actually showed support for staying within the UK - I guess your bitterness and narrow mindedness will ignore it all - suspect â€œWingsâ€ will be reporting it ðŸ™„


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

So the PM's waiting for JC. JC's waiting for EU, EU is waiting for JC/HoC... and we're all waiting to see if Bercow really goes on 31st


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How about this one

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....tish-independence-with-only-40-in-favour/amp/

Or this one

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...referendum-have-changed-their-minds-hb9tk2f0x

Or this one

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ce-group-backfires-reveals-support-union/amp/

All are reporting the same thing - a poll that was started by a â€œPro Independenceâ€ group to show support for Independence actually showed support for staying within the UK - I guess your bitterness and narrow mindedness will ignore it all - suspect â€œWingsâ€ will be reporting it ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

Your lack of knowledge of the Scottish political scene shines like a beacon, its one poll.
Bet you cannot find any that say the opposite.

For a bit of balance.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=scott...c23494fc394a9bc676b072a32&cc=GB&setlang=en-GB


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## Mudball (Oct 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			So the PM's waiting for JC. JC's waiting for EU, EU is waiting for JC/HoC... and we're all waiting to see if Bercow really goes on 31st 

Click to expand...

..correction.. we are all waiting to see who goes into Celebrity big brother, Strictly Dancing, Apprentice., love island etc.    This year they should start a new series...  ' I am a Celebrity, get me out of here' and it should be done in the HoC.. that way people would be more interested in politics


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Referring to winning and losing, talking about a 17.6million and leave means leave .. does suggest that the complexity has gone over peopleâ€™s head and their behaviours on here have shown that they think the negotiations are mono dimensional. BJ has managed to break the law, and is attempting to blackmail the HoC, he is also trying to force through a deal that was worse than Mayâ€™s .. The EU have given him the slack and been very polite, because they know he is reckless and untrustworthy.. they are enjoying seeing if he can fool the HoC and then the general public.
		
Click to expand...

You say its not a game but if you look at the way many MPs have worked against Brexit while using weasel words saying they respect the referendum outcome it has become a farce.
You have the audacity to point your finger at others making accusations that they dont understand the ramifications of their views, but you sir are one of the most blinkered self opinionated posters on this site, you have such vitriol and hatred in your anti conservative outlook you have blinded yourself to anything Boris or his cabinet may achieve. He may not be perfect but it would be interesting to see what kind of job an armchair socialist like you (who has probably never been hard up) do in his place.   Your running scared and blinkered opinion really is rather pathetic.


----------



## Wilson (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats a crude insult to make, I could say that every politician was a liar but such comments are lazy and knee jerk.  Boris has some good attributes and some failings just like you and I and every other person so try a bit harder with your put downs.
		
Click to expand...

It's not an insult, it's a fact - how did he get on at the Times? Or when he was VP of the Conservative party when Howard was PM?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You say its not a game but if you look at the way many MPs have worked against Brexit while using weasel words saying they respect the referendum outcome it has become a farce.
You have the audacity to point your finger at others making accusations that they dont understand the ramifications of their views, but you sir are one of the most blinkered self opinionated posters on this site, you have such vitriol and hatred in your anti conservative outlook you have blinded yourself to anything Boris or his cabinet may achieve. He may not be perfect but it would be interesting to see what kind of job an armchair socialist like you (who has probably never been hard up) do in his place.   Your running scared and blinkered opinion really is rather pathetic.
		
Click to expand...

You canâ€™t help yourself, you cry foul when people call Boris a liar, despite the fact it has been proven and heâ€™s been sacked for it, saying itâ€™s â€œsuch comments are lazy and knee jerkâ€
Then you make all sorts of accusations and insults to harpo as he holds a different opinion to yourself.

And back to the shadows I go.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You say its not a game but if you look at the way many MPs have worked against Brexit while using weasel words saying they respect the referendum outcome it has become a farce.
You have the audacity to point your finger at others making accusations that they dont understand the ramifications of their views, but you sir are one of the most blinkered self opinionated posters on this site, you have such vitriol and hatred in your anti conservative outlook you have blinded yourself to anything Boris or his cabinet may achieve. He may not be perfect but it would be interesting to see what kind of job an armchair socialist like you (who has probably never been hard up) do in his place.   Your running scared and blinkered opinion really is rather pathetic.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the quality appraisal, like all your posts itâ€™s total cobblers ðŸ¤£ and you cannot play golf either because you just troll this thread with your far right opinions. ðŸ‘


----------



## Grant85 (Oct 25, 2019)

well well well... the Government want an election (again) but parliament are not prepared to consent to one.

Of course the *will of the people* - recorded in June 2017 - was that this parliament should be a finely balanced one and should have to find and agree compromise on all issues prior to the next General Election on *5th May 2022*

Obviously the government have not been particularly good at compromise and the opposition have also not been united enough to really come up with genuine and workable solutions.

Bottom line is that the referendum result was close (48 / 52) and this should mean that the EU negotiations should have taken account of that. Instead, both May and Johnson deals have torn up our relationship with Europe and in both cases would have led to agreeing a completely new relationship (in an increasingly tight timescale, which would almost certainly need extended), while simultaneously attempting to agree trade deals with almost every other market in the world.

I'm sure a Norway type arrangement (EFTA) if that had been the starting point by government would have been agreed with the EU much easier and quicker. Sure, the screaming brexiteers would not have been happy, and neither the pro EU Lib Dems and SNP... but the vast majority of MPs would have stomached such a compromise and it would likely have passed with a 3 figure majority. *It would have delivered on the referendum result AND taken account of the tight result. *

Instead the Tories attempted to appease the right of their party, which has led to a deal reliant on hardliners with v little chance of many moderate Tories or Labour members supporting it, and certainly not enthusiastically.

Both PM's have attempted to get these deals through by running the clock down and attempting to make it a 'this deal or no deal' decision. Obviously that has worked to an extent, with a potential majority for Johnson's current deal, but I'm sure if Johnson thought he could get his deal though, reliant on up to 19 Labour MPs and a number of ex-Tories... he would be proceeding with that rather than throwing his toys out the pram.

Clearly a GE could potentially break this deadlock - but it could also lead to similar parliamentary numbers solving nothing and giving us another deadline on 31st January.

A binding referendum - this deal or remain - would provide a real and definite solution that could be delivered by 31st Jan. Only risk is that another tight result might not put the issue to bed - but with the next election in 2022... people on both sides would have to get on with it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Your lack of knowledge of the Scottish political scene shines like a beacon, its one poll.
Bet you cannot find any that say the opposite.

For a bit of balance.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=scott...c23494fc394a9bc676b072a32&cc=GB&setlang=en-GB

Click to expand...

Do you have anything more current as opposed to months ago ? 

The recent poll results which I posted were from 2 days ago 

Come on Doon - must do better


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He got them to reopen the un-openable WA, you know the one they said time and again wasn't openable. He got the backstop changed, you know the one they said they wouldn't budge on. He got Parliament to agree the deal in principle, just not the timetable. He's got a Cabinet, which BTW does include Remainers, to operate as a team.

Do I agree with it, and Brexit as a whole? No, but I recognise he's done more than his predecessor by some margin and in a very short timeframe. Some people wouldn't accept a single thing he does because of who he is, what he's done in the past and what he represents. *That's just narrow minded and blinkered.*

Click to expand...

Iâ€™ll hold my hand up to that, not quite sure about his Cabinet acting as a team either.
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-view...e-by-uniting-n-ireland-in-opposition-11844325


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You say its not a game but if you look at the way many MPs have worked against Brexit while using weasel words saying they respect the referendum outcome it has become a farce.
You have the audacity to point your finger at others making accusations that they dont understand the ramifications of their views, but you sir are one of the most blinkered self opinionated posters on this site, you have such vitriol and hatred in your anti conservative outlook you have blinded yourself to anything Boris or his cabinet may achieve. He may not be perfect but it would be interesting to see what kind of job an armchair socialist like you (who has probably never been hard up) do in his place.   Your running scared and blinkered opinion really is rather pathetic.
		
Click to expand...

Whoa there Neddy! That's not just a bit over the top, that's full of its own vitriol. Jeez, dial it back a bit.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2019)

Grant85 - I think the opposing sides in parliament are now so firmly entrenched that it would not matter what proposals were put forward. They all have tunnel vision and have lost perspective of what they are actually trying to achieve. It is about a power grab, Brexit is almost a side show. Hopefully an election would shake them up, get rid of a few from each side and maybe some new blood would be less entrenched. (he said hopefully)


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			well well well... the Government want an election (again) but parliament are not prepared to consent to one.

Of course the *will of the people* - recorded in June 2017 - was that this parliament should be a finely balanced one and should have to find and agree compromise on all issues prior to the next General Election on *5th May 2022*

Obviously the government have not been particularly good at compromise and the opposition have also not been united enough to really come up with genuine and workable solutions.

Bottom line is that the referendum result was close (48 / 52) and this should mean that the EU negotiations should have taken account of that. Instead, both May and Johnson deals have torn up our relationship with Europe and in both cases would have led to agreeing a completely new relationship (in an increasingly tight timescale, which would almost certainly need extended), while simultaneously attempting to agree trade deals with almost every other market in the world.

I'm sure a Norway type arrangement (EFTA) if that had been the starting point by government would have been agreed with the EU much easier and quicker. Sure, the screaming brexiteers would not have been happy, and neither the pro EU Lib Dems and SNP... but the vast majority of MPs would have stomached such a compromise and it would likely have passed with a 3 figure majority. *It would have delivered on the referendum result AND taken account of the tight result. *

Instead the Tories attempted to appease the right of their party, which has led to a deal reliant on hardliners with v little chance of many moderate Tories or Labour members supporting it, and certainly not enthusiastically.

Both PM's have attempted to get these deals through by running the clock down and attempting to make it a 'this deal or no deal' decision. Obviously that has worked to an extent, with a potential majority for Johnson's current deal, but I'm sure if Johnson thought he could get his deal though, reliant on up to 19 Labour MPs and a number of ex-Tories... he would be proceeding with that rather than throwing his toys out the pram.

Clearly a GE could potentially break this deadlock - but it could also lead to similar parliamentary numbers solving nothing.
		
Click to expand...

Er, the will of the people wasn't for a finely balanced parliament. If you ask everyone that voted you'd find that 99.99% are opposed to a hung parliament. Their will was for either a Tory, or Labour or LibDem or or or govt.


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

I'm assuming those who like to rubbish the PM using 'lair' label  have never lied.

I'd also suggest that you would need a very large net if you wanted to scoop up the previous PMs, UK/EU politicians, corporate leaders, journalists etc who have never been caught out. Its just an empty insult that moves no debate forward.


----------



## Grant85 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Er, the will of the people wasn't for a finely balanced parliament. If you ask everyone that voted you'd find that 99.99% are opposed to a hung parliament. Their will was for either a Tory, or Labour or LibDem or or or govt.
		
Click to expand...

That's the will of a person. 

The will of the people collectively was for a hung parliament - depriving the Tories of their majority.


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## woody69 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He got them to reopen the un-openable WA, you know the one they said time and again wasn't openable. He got the backstop changed, you know the one they said they wouldn't budge on. He got Parliament to agree the deal in principle, just not the timetable. He's got a Cabinet, which BTW does include Remainers, to operate as a team.

Do I agree with it, and Brexit as a whole? No, but I recognise he's done more than his predecessor by some margin and in a very short timeframe. Some people wouldn't accept a single thing he does because of who he is, what he's done in the past and what he represents. That's just narrow minded and blinkered.
		
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with what he has done in the past.

Let's remember he didn't even try to get a deal with Brussels until MPs countered his unlawful prorogue of Parliament as he was aiming for No Deal, instead effectively going out on an election campaign trail with promises of more police officers and new hospitals. It was only when Parliament blocked that that he went for the minimal deal option where he came back with a deal demonstrably worse than May's, as he rubbed out the red lines he had sworn to protect, threw NI under a bus and promised the ERG that they could still have No Deal at the end of 2020.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ll hold my hand up to that, not quite sure about his Cabinet acting as a team either.
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-view...e-by-uniting-n-ireland-in-opposition-11844325

Click to expand...

I'm sure that if you could be bothered to search you would find serial offenders who've turned their lives around and become positive contributors to society. Some people will have done some serious, untrustworthy stuff in the past and have gone on to great things.

Do I trust Johnson? No. Will I ever trust Johnson? No. But if he does achieve anything positive I will give him credit for it.


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			That's the will of a person.

The will of the people collectively was for a hung parliament - depriving the Tories of their majority.
		
Click to expand...

Was the will of all the Tory voters, all the Labour voters etc for a hung parliament? None of them wanted a hung parliament. The result is a hung parliament but not the will for a hung parliament. Its semantics that we'll just have to disagree on.


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

woody69 said:



			It has nothing to do with what he has done in the past.

Let's remember he didn't even try to get a deal with Brussels until MPs countered his unlawful prorogue of Parliament as* he was aiming for No Deal, *instead effectively going out on an election campaign trail with promises of more police officers and new hospitals. It was only when Parliament blocked that that* he went for the minimal deal option* where he came back with a deal demonstrably worse than May's, as he rubbed out the red lines he had sworn to protect, threw NI under a bus and promised the ERG that they could still have No Deal at the end of 2020.
		
Click to expand...

Pure speculation...


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

woody69 said:



			It has nothing to do with what he has done in the past.

Let's remember he didn't even try to get a deal with Brussels until MPs countered his unlawful prorogue of Parliament as he was aiming for No Deal, instead effectively going out on an election campaign trail with promises of more police officers and new hospitals. It was only when Parliament blocked that that he went for the minimal deal option where he came back with a deal demonstrably worse than May's, as he rubbed out the red lines he had sworn to protect, threw NI under a bus and promised the ERG that they could still have No Deal at the end of 2020.
		
Click to expand...

That's your opinion. Don't forget his team was going backwards and forwards to the EU for quite while before the proroguing. I believe his strategy forced the EU to negotiate when it was them who said they would talk but wouldn't open the WA or drop the backstop.


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## Grant85 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Was the will of all the Tory voters, all the Labour voters etc for a hung parliament? None of them wanted a hung parliament. The result is a hung parliament but not the will for a hung parliament. Its semantics that we'll just have to disagree on.
		
Click to expand...

it is what it is.
To ask them again 2 years later is basically refusing to compromise, and like I said, no guarantee you would get a significantly different result.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			it is what it is.
To ask them again 2 years later is basically refusing to compromise, and like I said, no guarantee you would get a significantly different result.
		
Click to expand...

Since when has a govt compromised with its opposition? The nearest thing to that only happens in a coalition govt. As for what the next result will be; it will be what it will be.


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

EU agrees to a delay, but they've delayed saying how long !!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm assuming those who like to rubbish the PM using 'lair' label  have never lied.

I'd also suggest that you would need a very large net if you wanted to scoop up the previous PMs, UK/EU politicians, corporate leaders, journalists etc who have never been caught out. Its just an empty insult that moves no debate forward.
		
Click to expand...

It goes to integrity and honesty, heâ€™s lost jobs and hurt people and those closest to him, crack on making excuses for him, thatâ€™s your call, just donâ€™t expect anyone else to agree.
Iâ€™d feel the same way about anyone else who had behaved like he has.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Mhairi Black, she would have had then soiling their keeks.

Click to expand...

Old Mhairi â€œitchy gumsâ€ Black?


----------



## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It goes to integrity and honesty, heâ€™s lost jobs and hurt people and those closest to him, crack on making excuses for him, thatâ€™s your call, just donâ€™t expect anyone else to agree.
Iâ€™d feel the same way about anyone else who had behaved like he has.
		
Click to expand...

Not a defence just pointing out the hypocrisy and the fact its boring and repetitive...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			Not a defence just pointing out the hypocrisy and the fact its boring and repetitive...
		
Click to expand...

That could be said about just every post on this thread.


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## woody69 (Oct 25, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Old Mhairi â€œitchy gumsâ€ Black?







Click to expand...

That's about a year old isn't it and she claimed it was because she had a kit kat in her pocket that had melted and she was licking the chocolate off


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It goes to integrity and honesty, heâ€™s lost jobs and hurt people and those closest to him, crack on making excuses for him, thatâ€™s your call, just donâ€™t expect anyone else to agree.
_*Iâ€™d feel the same way about anyone else who had behaved like he has.*_

Click to expand...

I'm all for setting high standards, and especially for those in public office. And I'd hope that every politician would be of the highest standard. Here's a thought; think back and consider all the senior politicians you can remember. How many of them haven't been circumspect with the truth and/or told an outright lie?

Setting the bar as high as you do, and this isn't a criticism, I'd hazard a guess that pretty much every senior politician in the last 20 years wouldn't be on your Xmas card list. I'm with on that by the way but I also accept that in lots of things in life there has to be accommodations made. Simply put, a saint wouldn't survive as a senior politician. That doesn't excuse them but it is at least realistic.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thanks for the quality appraisal, like all your posts itâ€™s total cobblers ðŸ¤£ and you cannot play golf either because you just troll this thread with your far right opinions. ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

How childish 'you cant play golf either na na na na na' grow up. I guess Im a member of two golf clubs for the views then. I have probably posted more in the golf threads over the years than you, these days i find them a bit repetative and boring, a bit like you actually.


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			Pure speculation...
		
Click to expand...

But likely to be correct - imo!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How childish 'you cant play golf either na na na na na' grow up. I guess Im a member of two golf clubs for the views then. I have probably posted more in the golf threads over the years than you, these days i find them a bit repetative and boring, a bit like you actually.
		
Click to expand...

Yes your quite right you posted something in 2011 ... but you have posted a shed load more on non golf items in particular these threads about Brexit and Boris J.
As for your 2 club membership, I am very happy for you I am sure your a stand up member.
You still cannot play golf, though ..hahahaha


----------



## Grant85 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I'm all for setting high standards, and especially for those in public office. And I'd hope that every politician would be of the highest standard. Here's a thought; think back and consider all the senior politicians you can remember. How many of them haven't been circumspect with the truth and/or told an outright lie?

Setting the bar as high as you do, and this isn't a criticism, I'd hazard a guess that pretty much every senior politician in the last 20 years wouldn't be on your Xmas card list. I'm with on that by the way but I also accept that in lots of things in life there has to be accommodations made. Simply put, a saint wouldn't survive as a senior politician. That doesn't excuse them but it is at least realistic.
		
Click to expand...

While I accept your point that most people in public office are economical with the truth from time to time... what we have now is a government / leadership increasingly adopting tactics of mis-information in order to try and promote their agenda. 

How many times did Johnson say he wouldn't ask for an extension? 
Clearly he realised he had no option but to comply with the law and it was surely the intention from a long way out to comply by sending the extension request. 

But in the meantime, he lied dozens of times to try and 'pretend' that the vote on his deal was a 'this deal v no deal' cliff edge. 

We also see the 'No. 10 source' throwing dozens of proposals and points of view into the ether. They can test the water on these with an anonymous source - sadly journalists are all too quick to throw them into the public domain. It is then easy for the government to roll back on these points in public. 

e.g. was the day of the Scottish Court decision on prorogation... No 10 source said 'it's not surprising to see Scottish judges adopt this point of view'. Calling the judicial impartiality into question... then a few hours later the PM can state publicly that he has faith in the independence of the courts.


----------



## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

The Labour position today...
BBC "Leader Jeremy Corbyn said he was only prepared to agree to an election once the PM had completely ruled out "to my satisfaction" the possibility of a no-deal Brexit . "

May not be a good idea to hold one's breath!

Perhaps if the 'deal was supported by HoC it would do what JC wants.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

woody69 said:



			...he came back with a deal demonstrably worse than May's...
		
Click to expand...

IYO! To me, it's vastly superior in several important areas, so superior to hers!


woody69 said:



			as he rubbed out the red lines he had sworn to protect...
		
Click to expand...

Certainly agree there, but that's the reality of negotiation imo!


woody69 said:



			...threw NI under a bus...
		
Click to expand...

I've always stated that Ireland/NI/GFA was going to be a major problem! This inelegant kludge does appear to 'solve' it.


woody69 said:



			...promised the ERG that they could still have No Deal at the end of 2020.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe ERG actually ever WANTED No Deal! But they were 'happy' to have No Deal as a fallback, as it would achiev their real goal of 'complete separation' of UK from EU regulation.


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## jp5 (Oct 25, 2019)

We had an election in 2017, Johnson should just get on with letting the parliament we democratically elected scrutinise his deal.


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## Old Skier (Oct 25, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Your lack of knowledge of the Scottish political scene shines like a beacon, its one poll.
Bet you cannot find any that say the opposite.

For a bit of balance.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=scott...c23494fc394a9bc676b072a32&cc=GB&setlang=en-GB

Click to expand...

Got anything up to date - didn't think so.


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## robinthehood (Oct 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			IYO! To me, it's vastly superior in several important areas, so superior to hers!

Certainly agree there, but that's the reality of negotiation imo!

I've always stated that Ireland/NI/GFA was going to be a major problem! This inelegant kludge does appear to 'solve' it.

I don't believe ERG actually ever WANTED No Deal! But they were 'happy' to have No Deal as a fallback, as it would achiev their real goal of 'complete separation' of UK from EU regulation.
		
Click to expand...

What are the differences you find vastly superior?


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			While I accept your point that most people in public office are economical with the truth from time to time... what we have now is a government / leadership increasingly adopting tactics of mis-information in order to try and promote their agenda.

How many times did Johnson say he wouldn't ask for an extension?
Clearly he realised he had no option but to comply with the law and it was surely the intention from a long way out to comply by sending the extension request.

But in the meantime, he lied dozens of times to try and 'pretend' that the vote on his deal was a 'this deal v no deal' cliff edge.

We also see the 'No. 10 source' throwing dozens of proposals and points of view into the ether. They can test the water on these with an anonymous source - sadly journalists are all too quick to throw them into the public domain. It is then easy for the government to roll back on these points in public.

e.g. was the day of the Scottish Court decision on prorogation... No 10 source said 'it's not surprising to see Scottish judges adopt this point of view'. Calling the judicial impartiality into question... then a few hours later the PM can state publicly that he has faith in the independence of the courts.
		
Click to expand...

On every point my opinion differs, though not necessarily is different, from yours. 

I'd argue that every govt is economical with the truth during periods of high intensity. 

On the issue of the extension, he had no choice. Whatever he may have said, as PM he probably recognised there was no way he could break the law. 

On the point of deal 'v' no deal; that still isn't resolved. It could even come down to the EU saying enough is enough.

As for leaking then retracting. Is anyone really surprised by this tactic? Every govt does it.

As for calling the judiciary's impartiality into question; hell yes, and rightly so. There's enough evidence, no pun intended, that judges made up their minds based on probabilities not hard facts. By saying Johnson did it for x reason, and not the one stated by either Johnson or his lawyers, was basically formed on opinion not fact. Scotland's own "not proven'" verdict in the case is based on probability, not fact. = "_Both in the "solemn" and the "summary" acquittals, not proven is interpreted as indicating that the jury or judge, respectively, is not convinced of the innocence of the accused; in fact, they may be morally convinced that the accused is guilty, but do not find the proofs sufficient for a conviction."_


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## woody69 (Oct 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			IYO! To me, it's vastly superior in several important areas, so superior to hers!
		
Click to expand...

I struggle to see past the fact that it rules out any possibility of the UK negotiating a new customs union with the EU after we leave. It rejects the UK having a close relationship with the Single Market so strips out the safety net on workplace rights, consumer protections and environmental standards. Even by the Governmentâ€™s own estimates, the basic free trade agreement envisaged by the deal would make every region and nation in the UK poorer.

You can also add that if this deal is passed, then there is a very real risk that we would crash out on no deal terms at the end of December 2020.

Where do you think it is vastly superior out of interest?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			The Labour position today...
BBC "Leader Jeremy Corbyn said he was only prepared to agree to an election once the PM had completely ruled out "to my satisfaction" the possibility of a no-deal Brexit . "

May not be a good idea to hold one's breath!

Perhaps if the 'deal was supported by HoC it would do what JC wants.
		
Click to expand...

The point to hammer home if you are Boris is that if Labour win the election JC gets to remove no deal for himself. Surely JC expects to win so why would no deal have to be off the table before the election? If he doesn't trust himself to win then he should not be leader.

Interesting tactic by Boris, he could really ram this home if JC wont back his election push.


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## ger147 (Oct 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			The Labour position today...
BBC "Leader Jeremy Corbyn said he was only prepared to agree to an election once the PM had completely ruled out "to my satisfaction" the possibility of a no-deal Brexit . "

May not be a good idea to hold one's breath!

Perhaps if the 'deal was supported by HoC it would do what JC wants.
		
Click to expand...

So JC now wants to ignore one very important element of parliamentary sovereignty i.e. no parliament can pass legislation that a future parliament cannot change.

If a future government wants to go for no deal and a future parliament supports it, the current parliament has no right to and absolutely cannot prevent it.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes your quite right you posted something in 2011 ... but you have posted a shed load more on non golf items in particular these threads about Brexit and Boris J.
As for your 2 club membership, I am very happy for you I am sure your a stand up member.
You still cannot play golf, though ..hahahaha
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you would like to put that to a test.  If you would like to pop over to Worcester I would be happy to give you a game.

By the way, you seem to have missed these and a great number of others. 


*
Rescue Wood ?*
The Tailormade V steel did this. Not sure if you can still get them.
SocketRocket
Post #8
Aug 29, 2019
Forum: Ask the Experts

image: https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290
[IMG]https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290[/IMG]
*My Golf Swing - Feedback wanted*
I would suggest you stay more centred on your swing (think of swinging in a barell) get your sternum more upright and over the ball. Don't fall back through impact.
SocketRocket
Post #9
Aug 28, 2019
Forum: Ask the Experts

image: https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290
[IMG]https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290[/IMG]
*My Golf Swing - Feedback wanted*
After a quick look I can see two issues. 1: You are swinging very flat and to the inside. What is your usual shot shape. 2: You have a reverse pivot, you lean forward in the backswing and back in the downswing. This will create a number of problems like hitting fat and thin also losing power. Do...
SocketRocket
Post #3
Aug 27, 2019
Forum: Ask the Experts

image: https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290
[IMG]https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290[/IMG]
*Swing like Hogan*
In any other similar action to hitting a golf ball our brain knows exactly how our body should move to produce the correct delivery of an object to its target. Young kids do it perfectly until someone confuses them by explaining how the wrists, arms, shoulders, torso, hips, knees and feet...
SocketRocket
Post #18
Aug 16, 2019
Forum: Ask the Experts

image: https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290
[IMG]https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290[/IMG]
*Custom club fitting?*
Incorrect lie angles can create shots that push or pull so its good to try and get them right whatever your standard otherwise you may build in compensations that will be hard to change. The advice from #Pendodave above is good regarding the Ping clubs.
SocketRocket
Post #12
Jun 8, 2019
Forum: Ask the Experts

image: https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290
[IMG]https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290[/IMG]
*Ball Flight Laws - who knows?*
But if you want to change a ball flight that you hit on a regular basis what can you do. Lets consider the most common, a slice. Most slicers would love to even reduce it to a fade. If they are not aware what is making the ball slice they havent much chance of changing it. They dont need the...
SocketRocket
Post #18
Jun 6, 2019
Forum: Ask the Experts

image: https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290
[IMG]https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290[/IMG]
*Ball Flight Laws - who knows?*
The physics that determine ball flight is the 'D' plane. It requires a reasonable understanding of 3D geometry, planed surfaces, 3D vectors and normals to a surface to apply it to ball flight. A simpler way to grasp this is to take a beach ball and consider how you would need to strike it with...
SocketRocket
Post #13
Jun 4, 2019
Forum: Ask the Experts

image: https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290
[IMG]https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/data/avatars/s/12/12488.jpg?1535537290[/IMG]


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

ger147 said:



			So JC now wants to ignore one very important element of parliamentary sovereignty i.e. no parliament can pass legislation that a future parliament cannot change.

If a future government wants to go for no deal and a future parliament supports it, the current parliament has no right to and absolutely cannot prevent it.
		
Click to expand...

Corbyn has an MP for 36 years. Of course he's ignoring that very important element. He's playing his usual political games for Labour's own ends. and not that of the electorate.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you would like to put that to a test.  If you would like to pop over to Worcester I would be happy to give you a game.
		
Click to expand...

No problem


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## Mudball (Oct 25, 2019)

.. and what point does Mike decide to shut this thread?

... Will you still post to it if every post costs you say 20p?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Whoa there Neddy! That's not just a bit over the top, that's full of its own vitriol. Jeez, dial it back a bit.
		
Click to expand...

OK, point taken.


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

Mudball said:



			.. and what point does Mike decide to shut this thread?

... Will you still post to it if every post costs you say 20p?
		
Click to expand...

Why?

You're not compelled to read it or participate! It provides amusement etc. it gets viewed which is good for the site / advertisers' exposure.


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

woody69 said:



			I struggle to see past the fact that it rules out any possibility of the UK negotiating a new customs union with the EU after we leave. It rejects the UK having a close relationship with the Single Market so strips out the safety net on workplace rights, consumer protections and environmental standards. Even by the Governmentâ€™s own estimates, the basic free trade agreement envisaged by the deal would make every region and nation in the UK poorer.

You can also add that if this deal is passed, then there is a very real risk that we would crash out on no deal terms at the end of December 2020.

Where do you think it is vastly superior out of interest?
		
Click to expand...

Firstly note that I voted Remain BECAUSE of many of the sort of things you state are advantages of May's deal. But, in reality, May's deal wasn't a Leave deal at all - it was a deal to Remain!

But, I've accepted the Referendum result.... The comparisons you are making indicate to me that you have not - as you still are still wanting benefits that only come with being an EU member!

BoJo's deal removes the potential (and too likely, imo) to be kept within the EU - by the EU - that May's deal had, so that's the important 'improvement'!

If UK is leaving the EU, that 'close relationship' etc. must be removed - otherwise UK hasn't left (control by) the EU!

Again, May's deal was a Bad Deal (that, to quote her, was worse than No Deal) in that regard - it wasn't leaving the EU at all!  That's why it's important to get an FTA asap - rather poorer alternative to Customs Union imo, but controlled mutually - not purely by EU. Likewise, Single Market - huge benefit, imo, nut controlld by EU so has to be go - and replaced by a UK or mutually controlled mechanism. Same applies to/for Consumer Protection, Workplace Standards, Research co-operation, Cross Border Policing etc. that are currently under EU 'control' - UK has to find a way to achieve the current/desired levels of co-operation but under UK control!

In summary, *you are simply (consciously or unconsciously) continuing the Leave v Rermain debate - so haven't accepted the Referendum result!* And that also applies to many MPs as well. Until that (acceptance) happens, BoJo's deal will continue to be deemed to be 'poor'!


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

Since no Government can bind a future one JC could get elected and then do what he wants.


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## Grant85 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			On every point my opinion differs, though not necessarily is different, from yours.

I'd argue that every govt is economical with the truth during periods of high intensity.

On the issue of the extension, he had no choice. Whatever he may have said, as PM he probably recognised there was no way he could break the law.

On the point of deal 'v' no deal; that still isn't resolved. It could even come down to the EU saying enough is enough.

*As for leaking then retracting. Is anyone really surprised by this tactic? Every govt does it.*

As for calling the judiciary's impartiality into question; hell yes, and rightly so. There's enough evidence, no pun intended, that judges made up their minds based on probabilities not hard facts. By saying Johnson did it for x reason, and not the one stated by either Johnson or his lawyers, was basically formed on opinion not fact. Scotland's own "not proven'" verdict in the case is based on probability, not fact. = "_Both in the "solemn" and the "summary" acquittals, not proven is interpreted as indicating that the jury or judge, respectively, is not convinced of the innocence of the accused; in fact, they may be morally convinced that the accused is guilty, but do not find the proofs sufficient for a conviction."_

Click to expand...

I'm sorry - but it is simply not right to just accept these types of tactics. Other people doing it doesn't make it right and while it may be tactic used by others, generally to manage the news cycle, in the case of the current government - it is far more blatant and dishonest, especially given how frequently it is happening and with the stakes high. 

On the subject of prorogation - you are so wrong here it is frightening. It is clear his intention was to avoid scrutiny - which is ultimately why the Scottish court and Supreme court came to the clear verdicts it did. 
You may remember that during the Scottish case the government refused / declined to provide a witness statement stating the intention of the prorogation (clearly because they were either going to perjure themselves or give the game up). 

Instead the government lawyers argued that it was basically up to the government when to progrogue and for how long - without the need for justification. Something that, thankfully, the courts put a stop to, which will correctly deter / prevent future governments from trying the same tactic.


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## patricks148 (Oct 25, 2019)

lets not forget the real reason for Brixit though

https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...reveals-secrets-of-world-elites-hidden-wealth

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...zmVnWTaqyHqw2FKr8NRMMwCpJsxF4jr99C5amXOlh11F8


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			I'm sorry - but it is simply not right to just accept these types of tactics. Other people doing it doesn't make it right and while it may be tactic used by others, generally to manage the news cycle, in the case of the current government - it is far more blatant and dishonest, especially given how frequently it is happening and with the stakes high.

On the subject of prorogation - you are so wrong here it is frightening. It is clear his intention was to avoid scrutiny - which is ultimately why the Scottish court and Supreme court came to the clear verdicts it did.
You may remember that during the Scottish case the government refused / declined to provide a witness statement stating the intention of the prorogation (clearly because they were either going to perjure themselves or give the game up).

Instead the government lawyers argued that it was basically up to the government when to progrogue and for how long - without the need for justification. Something that, thankfully, the courts put a stop to, which will correctly deter / prevent future governments from trying the same tactic.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't say it is simply not right, I said every govt does it. And I agree its not acceptable. However, in mitigation I'd argue that taking the higher moral ground in a morass of deception that exists in Parliament doesn't help either. Until all sides in parliament decide to on a better code of conduct things won't change. And idealism, as much as it is right, just won't get things done.

On the subject of prorogation, sorry to frighten you, you say it was his clear intention. My answer to that is prove it. You provide a statement from whatever media source or govt announcement that shows that was his intention and I'll hold my hands up. And that is also my argument about the court's decision. Your interpretation was they didn't want to perjure themselves or give the game away. Another interpretation put forward at the time was the govt didn't provide a witness statement for the Scottish court as they expected to lose but knew that an appeal would end up in the Supreme Court in London. That aside, I think it showed a huge amount of disrespect to the Scottish Court, someone should have been there.

As an side, I watched a lot of the feed from the Supreme Court, and it came down to opinions, not facts. And that, in my opinion, is when the judiciary interfered in an area they shouldn't have. If they had a proven fact, I would happily support the court's decision. They didn't and, in effect, you had a group of judges making political decisions - very, very, very wrong.

The courts may have been right but it was never proven.

As for how long a govt can prorogue for, I believe that should be explained to Parliament at the time of announcing the decision to prorogue. Forgetting the current rubbish, or reasons behind it, this was the longest session of parliament since whenever. Various ministers and depts will have needed time to create the policies and proposed legislation for the Queen's Speech. I believe the govt of the day should be able to choose how long they want to prorogue but there should be a time limit to it.


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## Mudball (Oct 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			lets not forget the real reason for Brixit though

https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...reveals-secrets-of-world-elites-hidden-wealth

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...zmVnWTaqyHqw2FKr8NRMMwCpJsxF4jr99C5amXOlh11F8

Click to expand...

Just another conspiracy and inconvenient truth ..  age old practice to tell the proletariat that they need something that did not exist.. keep them occupied in it and then use that diversion to get your agenda thru


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			...
As for calling the judiciary's impartiality into question; hell yes, and rightly so. There's enough evidence, no pun intended, that judges made up their minds based on probabilities not hard facts. By saying Johnson did it for x reason, and not the one stated by either Johnson or his lawyers, was basically formed on opinion not fact. Scotland's own "not proven'" verdict in the case is based on probability, not fact. = "_Both in the "solemn" and the "summary" acquittals, not proven is interpreted as indicating that the jury or judge, respectively, is not convinced of the innocence of the accused; in fact, they may be morally convinced that the accused is guilty, but do not find the proofs sufficient for a conviction."_

Click to expand...

You are (totally wrong by) confusing the Judiciary's '*judge*ment' role - where, indeed, *Judge*s certainly make *judge*ments based on probabilities etc. as opposed to hard facts - and impartiality - aka bias! *Judge*s, especially at higher levels, are constantly using their *judge*ment to resolve and rule based on probabilities. The title '*Judge*' should be enough to make that plain! 

Btw. Was there a 'Not Proven' decision 'in this case'? I can't find one, so would be interested to the circumstances.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You are (totally wrong by) confusing the Judiciary's '*judge*ment' role - where, indeed, *Judge*s certainly make *judge*ments based on probabilities etc. as opposed to hard facts - and impartiality - aka bias! *Judge*s, especially at higher levels, are constantly using their *judge*ment to resolve and rule based on probabilities. The title '*Judge*' should be enough to make that plain!

Btw. Was there a 'Not Proven' decision 'in this case'? I can't find one, so would be interested to the circumstances.
		
Click to expand...

I thank my learned friend for providing such a level of education. However, I am aware that Supreme Court judges set precedent and rulings via opinions. However, I stand by my opinion that Supreme Court judges using opinions in political judgements is wholly wrong. 

BTW, You can use *BOLD* as much as you like but it still doesn't make you look any cleverer, just very foolish. *Good use of exclamation marks though.*


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			On every point my opinion differs, though not necessarily is different, from yours.

I'd argue that every govt is economical with the truth during periods of high intensity.

On the issue of the extension, he had no choice. Whatever he may have said, as PM he probably recognised there was no way he could break the law.

On the point of deal 'v' no deal; that still isn't resolved. It could even come down to the EU saying enough is enough.

As for leaking then retracting. Is anyone really surprised by this tactic? Every govt does it.

As for calling the judiciary's impartiality into question; hell yes, and rightly so. There's enough evidence, no pun intended, that judges made up their minds based on probabilities not hard facts. By saying Johnson did it for x reason, and not the one stated by either Johnson or his lawyers, was basically formed on opinion not fact. Scotland's own "not proven'" verdict in the case is based on probability, not fact. = "_Both in the "solemn" and the "summary" acquittals, not proven is interpreted as indicating that the jury or judge, respectively, is not convinced of the innocence of the accused; in fact, they may be morally convinced that the accused is guilty, but do not find the proofs sufficient for a conviction."_

Click to expand...

I could well be wrong (and as you point out I often am) but was it not the case that central to the Court of Sessions verdict was that the government legal team could not provide any justifiable reason (in fact) for the *extended *period of prorogation in the lead up to a Queens Speech.  The government case might well have been helped had any minister or official been willing or able to provide a sworn affidavit on the reason for the extended prorogation - that none was provided was not the reason for the verdict, but it didn't help.

Though I might be getting my Court of Session response muddled with a point about a Supreme Court ruling 

EDIT - oops @Grant85 already covered this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			...
We also see the 'No. 10 source' throwing dozens of proposals and points of view into the ether. They can test the water on these with an anonymous source - sadly journalists are all too quick to throw them into the public domain. It is then easy for the government to roll back on these points in public.
...
		
Click to expand...

Peter Oborne despairing about this also on CH4 News - and raging against senior journalists for running with it (and mea culpa on that also)




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=413000532961671


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I could well be wrong (and as you point out I often am) but was it not the case that central to the Court of Sessions verdict was that the government legal team could not provide any justifiable reason (in fact) for the *extended *period of prorogation in the lead up to a Queens Speech.  The government case might well have been helped had any minister or official been willing or able to provide a sworn affidavit on the reason for the extended prorogation - that none was provided was not the reason for the verdict, but it didn't help.

Though I might be getting my Court of Session and Supreme Court rulings mixed up 

EDIT - oops @Grant85 already covered this.
		
Click to expand...

You could be right Hugh. I've looked for the judgement but can't find the detail. 

However, below is Number 10's reply;

_A spokesman for No 10 said it was "disappointed" by the decision, and would appeal to the Supreme Court.

He added: "The UK government needs to bring forward a strong domestic legislative agenda. Proroguing Parliament is the legal and necessary way of delivering this._

My point, in terms of proof, is where is the evidence. And if you look back around the time of the judgement you will find that I said I don't doubt that it was Johnson's intent to shutdown parliament but, equally, where is the proof. Could anyone call the spokesperson for Number 10 a liar with 100% certainty - reasonable doubt.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You could be right Hugh. I've looked for the judgement but can't find the detail.

However, below is Number 10's reply;

_A spokesman for No 10 said it was "disappointed" by the decision, and would appeal to the Supreme Court._

_*He added: "The UK government needs to bring forward a strong domestic legislative agenda. Proroguing Parliament is the legal and necessary way of delivering this.*_

My point, in terms of proof, is where is the evidence. And if you look back around the time of the judgement you will find that I said I don't doubt that it was Johnson's intent to shutdown parliament but, equally, where is the proof. Could anyone call the spokesperson for Number 10 a liar with 100% certainty - reasonable doubt.
		
Click to expand...

All of which is true - but IIRC in the opinion of the Court(s) the government lawyers did not provide a good reason for why, this time for this Queens Speech, the period of prorogation had to be longer than normal.


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I thank my learned friend for providing such a level of education. However, I am aware that Supreme Court judges set precedent and rulings via opinions. However, I stand by my opinion that Supreme Court judges using opinions in political judgements is wholly wrong.
...
		
Click to expand...

*Judge*ments  by *Judge*s in cases that have _political ramifications_ aare no different than any other *judge*ments! In UK, they are not (meant to be and I don't believe ever are) 'political* judge*ments'! That's the essence of the separation of Executive/Legislative and Judiciary. Executive/Legislative constantly make 'political judgements'; Judiciary should never! 

Have you worked out why '*judge*' is in bold yet btw? It's because they regularly have to make judgements - for which 'opinion' is a synoymn!


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I thank my learned friend for providing such a level of education. However, I am aware that Supreme Court judges set precedent and rulings via opinions. However, I stand by my opinion that Supreme Court judges using opinions in political judgements is wholly wrong.

BTW, You can use *BOLD* as much as you like but it still doesn't make you look any cleverer, just very foolish. *Good use of exclamation marks though.*

Click to expand...

If said Judges are required to make political judgements should they not be up for election by the public.


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All of which is true - but IIRC in the opinion of the Court(s) the government lawyers did not provide a good reason for why, this time for this Queens Speech, the period of prorogation had to be longer than normal.
		
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And our wonderful HoC made great use of the time they gained. I'm guessing they're also now reading up on the WA while waiting for the EU !!!


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If said Judges are required to make political judgements should they not be up for election by the public.
		
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There has always been the separation of govt and judiciary for very good reason. The govt should set laws but not interfere with the application of laws. Similarly, the judiciary can ensure that a govt follows the laws but should never, ever interfere with the application of govt.

It sets a very dangerous precedent, a precedent that can go both ways. I have concerns that at sometime in the future we will see the govt clipping the wings of the Supreme Court because of the recent ruling. That worries me even more than what we've just seen.

Although the ruling might have been right, though not proven, it is very, very wrong for unelected officials to be making political judgements.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			And our wonderful HoC made great use of the time they gained. I'm guessing they're also now reading up on the WA while waiting for the EU !!!
		
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Which may be true or may be speculation. By the same measure - going by his performance in front of the Lords Committee earlier this week Stephen Barclay could do with doing a bit of reading of it also - maybe focussing on the NI and NI/rUK trade sections.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There has always been the separation of govt and judiciary for very good reason. The govt should set laws but not interfere with the application of laws. Similarly, the judiciary can ensure that a govt follows the laws but should never, ever interfere with the application of govt.

It sets a very dangerous precedent, a precedent that can go both ways. I have concerns that at sometime in the future we will see the govt clipping the wings of the Supreme Court because of the recent ruling. That worries me even more than what we've just seen.

Although the ruling might have been right, though not proven, it is very, very wrong for unelected officials to be making political judgements.
		
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I agree .
I think this sort of ruling makes our Judges no more than glorified politicians making judgements.
Judges should deal in facts . They are not accountable to us like politicians are and we can remove politicians we donâ€™t like at the ballot box.


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There has always been the separation of govt and judiciary for very good reason. The govt should set laws but not interfere with the application of laws. Similarly, the judiciary can ensure that a govt follows the laws but should never, ever interfere with the application of govt.

It sets a very dangerous precedent, a precedent that can go both ways. I have concerns that at sometime in the future we will see the govt clipping the wings of the Supreme Court because of the recent ruling. That worries me even more than what we've just seen.

Although the ruling might have been right, though not proven, it is very, very wrong for unelected officials to be making political judgements.
		
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Totally agree with this!

But, as I posted above, there's a huge difference between 'a political judgement' and 'a judgement on a political matter'! Has that concept/difference sunk in yet?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There has always been the separation of govt and judiciary for very good reason. The govt should set laws but not interfere with the application of laws. Similarly, the judiciary can ensure that a govt follows the laws but should never, ever interfere with the application of govt.

It sets a very dangerous precedent, a precedent that can go both ways. I have concerns that at sometime in the future we will see the govt clipping the wings of the Supreme Court because of the recent ruling. That worries me even more than what we've just seen.

Although the ruling might have been right, though not proven, *it is very, very wrong for unelected officials to be making political judgements.*

Click to expand...

...you mean like Mr Wonderful Tactician - 'you know who'


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			...
I think this sort of ruling makes our Judges no more than glorified politicians making judgements.
...
		
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Twaddle!

At least in UK (and NZ)! US Supreme Court and is not the same. I'm unaware about how the likes of Aus, India, Pakistan, SA (and other cricketing nations?) work.


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If said Judges are required to make political judgements should they not be up for election by the public.
		
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That was a legal judgement about a law about a political matter with political consequences. Quite different to a 'political judgement'. BoJo's decision to prorogue Parliament *was* a political judgement, one of many he has made/will make, because that' his job!


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!

At least in UK (and NZ)! US Supreme Court and is not the same. I'm unaware about how the likes of Aus, India, Pakistan, SA (and other cricketing nations?) work.
		
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Double Twaddle if that exists.
Whatâ€™s it got to do with other countries.?
Judges should deal with facts ,or we will start looking into their political leanings if they start bringing  decisions a government dosnt like.
We will be running to court every time something we donâ€™t like is legislated. Like the USA.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I agree .
I think this sort of ruling makes our Judges no more than glorified politicians making judgements.
Judges should deal in facts . They are not accountable to us like politicians are and we can remove politicians we donâ€™t like at the ballot box.
		
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To be fair, there's many occasions they can't deal in facts. That's when opinions and precedents are set, and thats where laws often come from. Politics is founded on opinions about political persuasions and doctrine. No way should the judiciary be involved in that unless a law is broken.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...you mean like Mr Wonderful Tactician - 'you know who' 

Click to expand...

Does he make political judgements or does he give advice on what the judgements should be? If we're going down that route, should every Civil Servant be named as an 'interferer' in the judgements?


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			To be fair, there's many occasions they can't deal in facts. That's when opinions and precedents are set, and thats where laws often come from. Politics is founded on opinions about political persuasions and doctrine. No way should the judiciary be involved in that unless a law is broken.
		
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But should Judges be telling parliament what they can and canâ€™t do.
They are open to criticism if they start getting political imo.
The problem is a hung parliament so Boris canâ€™t legislate for what he wants .
Unlike Hillary Benn who has more power than the PM allegedly.

If a judge makes a decision you donâ€™t agree with he can point to the facts as to why he has come to this decision.
If itâ€™s only his opinion then that is very different in a political decision.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			But should Judges be telling parliament what they can and canâ€™t do.
They are open to criticism if they start getting political imo.
The problem is a hung parliament so Boris canâ€™t legislate for what he wants .
Unlike Hillary Benn who has more power than the PM allegedly.
		
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The judges should be telling parliament when they break the law. That always has to be the case. No one should be above the law. But no, they shouldn't be expressing opinions on political process if it doesn't revolve around a specific law.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Does he make political judgements or does he give advice on what the judgements should be? If we're going down that route, should every Civil Servant be named as an 'interferer' in the judgements?
		
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Of course I don't know but I suspect that DomCumm is absolutely key to making absolutely political decisions with and for Johnson.  The decisions might not (all) be on political policy - but he wouldn't be there if he wasn't key to political decisions and tactics - to making many decisions that are part of the political game that's being played by Johnson. 

_'Let's Just Get it Done' _and variants thereof - is repeated by Johnson and every minister or Tory MP just about every time any of them are interviewed.  This would most likely have come from the pen of DomCum with the objective of getting the message driven into the heads of every single one of us - with the political objective being that enough of us will actually come to believe that if and when Johnson's Deal of No Deal come to pass - then Brexit will be over - the agony will finish.  We know it's not true - UK might be out but the agony will be far from finished.  

An article by Clare Foges in The Times on Monday  this week on what is being found from (Leave supporting) focus groups...

_When these focus groups are told that Brexit triggers a longer phase of talks and trade negotiations, the response is often â€œhorrified silenceâ€. ... The government would like us to believe that getting Brexit â€œdoneâ€ will fix this._

And that is politics according to DomCumm


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Double Twaddle if that exists.
...
		
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clubchamp98 said:



			...
Whatâ€™s it got to do with other countries.?
Judges should deal with facts ,or we will start looking into their political leanings if they start bringing  decisions a government dosnt like.
We will be running to court every time something we donâ€™t like is legislated. Like the USA.
		
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Just reflecting that that's exactly what happens in 'Good old USofA'! So you've answered your own question!
All Judges DO deal with facts. However, how the facts comply with 'the Law' (in the case of the UK and US Supreme Courts 'the Consitiution') differs.
That particular judgement used precedent going back several hundred years! In US, it's (also) often about opinion/attitude to a highly interpretable document, so (lifetime) appointments of SC Judges by The President certainly have political consequences!


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2019)

It was unfortunate that Lady Hale QC chose to make flippant comments at a conference after the ruling and potentially undermine the politically neutral position...


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			But should Judges be telling parliament what they can and canâ€™t do.
They are open to criticism if they start getting political imo.
...
		
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Only if they are asked to! It's not their role to Referee Parliament!


clubchamp98 said:



			...
The problem is a hung parliament so Boris canâ€™t legislate for what he wants .
Unlike Hillary Benn who has more power than the PM allegedly.
...
		
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Well that certainly doesn't help. Though nor does removing the Whip from those who only oppose him on 1 (over-bearing) matter.
The Commons is extremely egalitarian - PMQs is a poor snapshot of Parliament's work! 


clubchamp98 said:



			If a judge makes a decision you donâ€™t agree with he can point to the facts as to why he has come to this decision.
If itâ€™s only his opinion then that is very different in a political decision.
		
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His opinion = his judgement!


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			It was unfortunate that Lady Hale QC chose to make flippant comments at a conference after the ruling and potentially undermine the politically neutral position...
		
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Oh yeah! What were they?


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course I don't know but I suspect that DomCumm is absolutely key to making absolutely political decisions with and for Johnson.  The decisions might not (all) be on political policy - but he wouldn't be there if he wasn't key to political decisions and tactics - to making many decisions that are part of the political game that's being played by Johnson.

_'Let's Just Get it Done' _and variants thereof - is repeated by Johnson and every minister or Tory MP just about every time any of them are interviewed.  This would most likely have come from the pen of DomCum with the objective of getting the message driven into the heads of every single one of us - with the political objective being that enough of us will actually come to believe that if and when Johnson's Deal of No Deal come to pass - then Brexit will be over - the agony will finish.  We know it's not true - UK might be out but the agony will be far from finished.

An article by Clare Foges in The Times on Monday  this week on what is being found from (Leave supporting) focus groups...

_When these focus groups are told that Brexit triggers a longer phase of talks and trade negotiations, the response is often â€œhorrified silenceâ€. ... The government would like us to believe that getting Brexit â€œdoneâ€ will fix this._

And that is politics according to DomCumm
		
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Pretty much like his predecessor, Olly Robbins. Seem to remember May lost her first advisors because of unprofessionalism. I'd expect any senior manager would have people doing the detail, and the senior manager, in this case the PM, making the decisions.

My last job saw me in charge of a training division, a service division, an admin division and a sales division, and supported by an externally based HR, regulatory, finance, quality, manufacturing and law division. No way, as an engineer by background, could I make effective decisions without a damn good team behind me.

I find the criticism of various PM's support teams rather tedious and vacuous.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Pretty much like his predecessor, Olly Robbins. Seem to remember May lost her first advisors because of unprofessionalism. I'd expect any senior manager would have people doing the detail, and the senior manager, in this case the PM, making the decisions.

My last job saw me in charge of a training division, a service division, an admin division and a sales division, and supported by an externally based HR, regulatory, finance, quality, manufacturing and law division. No way, as an engineer by background, could I make effective decisions without a damn good team behind me.

I find the criticism of various PM's support teams rather tedious and vacuous.
		
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OK then - I'll choose to just blame BJ - but oops - I get into trouble here doing just that...so I thought I'd spread it around a bit...


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Only if they are asked to! It's not their role to Referee Parliament!

Well that certainly doesn't help. Though nor does removing the Whip from those who only oppose him on 1 (over-bearing) matter.
The Commons is extremely egalitarian - PMQs is a poor snapshot of Parliament's work!

His opinion = his judgement!
		
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Thatâ€™s the problem ,if itâ€™s only his opinion ,, judges will be chosen on political leanings just like the lords.
Do we really want that?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Pretty much like his predecessor, Olly Robbins. Seem to remember May lost her first advisors because of unprofessionalism. I'd expect any senior manager would have people doing the detail, and the senior manager, in this case the PM, making the decisions.

My last job saw me in charge of a training division, a service division, an admin division and a sales division, and supported by an externally based HR, regulatory, finance, quality, manufacturing and law division. No way, as an engineer by background, could I make effective decisions without a damn good team behind me.

*I find the criticism of various PM's support teams rather tedious and vacuous.*

Click to expand...

Trying to cover 2 points here, in one post.
First, the above, My issue, with any Party, how are these non-elected, not civil servants answerable to the Public, Cummings may or may not have an influence on the PM, but who decides and who has the final say on what he is privy to or can influence?

On the Judiciary (quite ignorant on it) if they donâ€™t or shouldnâ€™t get involved (which from what youâ€™ve posted, makes sense) are we in danger of a PM or Party doing what they want, when they want, regardless of Party.

ie, if Boris had won what was to stop him proroguing Parliament again for some spurious reason to simply run the clock down, surely there has to be again some accountability for any Party or PM


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thatâ€™s the problem ,if* itâ€™s only his opinion* ,, judges will be chosen on political leanings just like the lords.
Do we really want that?
		
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H'mm! In the case of Law Lords/Supreme Cout Judges 'his/*her *opinion/judgement carries a lot of weight!
The independence of The Judiciary in UK is sacrocant!


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The judges should be telling parliament when they break the law. That always has to be the case. No one should be above the law. But no, they shouldn't be expressing opinions on political process if it doesn't revolve around a specific law.
		
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That's not the Judiciary's role.
The process in the Prorogue-ing case was a perferctly fine example. Some person/company/body complained about what happened. Tha appropriate Court considered the matter and Ruled - using the Precedent concept of the UK Constitution to form a Judgement!
And remember that it was unanimous decision of the 11 Judges!


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Trying to cover 2 points here, in one post.
First, the above, My issue, with any Party, how are these non-elected, not civil servants answerable to the Public, Cummings may or may not have an influence on the PM, but who decides and who has the final say on what he is privy to or can influence?

On the Judiciary (quite ignorant on it) if they donâ€™t or shouldnâ€™t get involved (which from what youâ€™ve posted, makes sense) are we in danger of a PM or Party doing what they want, when they want, regardless of Party.

ie, if Boris had won what was to stop him proroguing Parliament again for some spurious reason to simply run the clock down, surely there has to be again some accountability for any Party or PM
		
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On the issue of unelected Civil Sevants advising ministers, its gone on since long before you or I were a glint in someone's eye. If you think about it, a Civil Servant may have worked in, pick a dept, for donkey's years. Do you want a Cabinet Minister who's been in office for 5 mins making a decision or do you want him being advised by an expert? Ask Pieman for a better answer on that one.

On a party being able to make dodgy decisions, Grant85 asked the same question. He's right, as you are. I think its a loophole that needs closing. Johnson isn't the first to do it that I can remember. John Major prorogued to stop the cash for questions debate embarrassing his govt. It needs all parties to agree a formula on how long proroguing should last for. For example, using the current case, this is the longest session of parliament for many, many years. Creating a legislative programme after such a long session could take longer than if the session had only been 6 months(?).

Beyond that, when a govt is cavalier, maybe the parliamentary standards committee could/would get involved - I don't know, just guessing, but it does need some sort of catch all to it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			On the issue of unelected Civil Sevants advising ministers, its gone on since long before you or I were a glint in someone's eye. If you think about it, a Civil Servant may have worked in, pick a dept, for donkey's years. Do you want a Cabinet Minister who's been in office for 5 mins making a decision or do you want him being advised by an expert? Ask Pieman for a better answer on that one.

On a party being able to make dodgy decisions, Grant85 asked the same question. He's right, as you are. I think its a loophole that needs closing. Johnson isn't the first to do it that I can remember. John Major prorogued to stop the cash for questions debate embarrassing his govt. It needs all parties to agree a formula on how long proroguing should last for. For example, using the current case, this is the longest session of parliament for many, many years. Creating a legislative programme after such a long session could take longer than if the session had only been 6 months(?).

Beyond that, when a govt is cavalier, maybe the parliamentary standards committee could/would get involved - I don't know, just guessing, but it does need some sort of catch all to it.
		
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Cheers Mate, although Iâ€™ve possibly confused you on the first point, Iâ€™m happy with the Civil Service advising, as you say they have experience and are answerable, Cummings isnâ€™t a Civil Servant so who does he answer to, heâ€™s described as a Political Strategist, so just some bloke off the street Boris likes? Yet possibly determining Government strategy and Policy. Itâ€™s these types that worry me!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			The independence of The Judiciary in UK is sacrocant!
		
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Pity the Speaker isn't.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Cheers Mate, although Iâ€™ve possibly confused you on the first point, Iâ€™m happy with the Civil Service advising, as you say they have experience and are answerable, Cummings isnâ€™t a Civil Servant so who does he answer to, heâ€™s described as a Political Strategist, so just some bloke off the street Boris likes? Yet possibly determining Government strategy and Policy. Itâ€™s these types that worry me!
		
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But its not just Boris and Cummings, all political parties have them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But its not just Boris and Cummings, all political parties have them.
		
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Probably why I stated ALL PARTIES in my first post to HOBBIT.

Move along here, nothing to see.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Cheers Mate, although Iâ€™ve possibly confused you on the first point, Iâ€™m happy with the Civil Service advising, as you say they have experience and are answerable, Cummings isnâ€™t a Civil Servant so who does he answer to, heâ€™s described as a Political Strategist, so just some bloke off the street Boris likes? Yet possibly determining Government strategy and Policy. Itâ€™s these types that worry me!
		
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Bernard Ingham was Maggie's press sec / advisor and was probably the first of this new breed. Ever since then all parties have had outside advisors / strategists. Getting elected is a professional game now and once in power the aim is then to stay there. The shame is these advisors tend to work and look only short term and that is not necessarily good for the country.

I would say you are right to be worried, I agree with you.


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## woody69 (Oct 25, 2019)

This is a fairly good summary of the week and our bumbling PM


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187751825858015232


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably why I stated ALL PARTIES in my first post to HOBBIT.

Move along here, nothing to see.

Click to expand...

Was there any point in that reply.  Did I insult you, I simply made a comment but you wanted to make it personal.  I thought you had retired from this thread due to peoples attitude.


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## woody69 (Oct 25, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Firstly note that I voted Remain BECAUSE of many of the sort of things you state are advantages of May's deal. But, in reality, May's deal wasn't a Leave deal at all - it was a deal to Remain!

But, I've accepted the Referendum result.... The comparisons you are making indicate to me that you have not - as you still are still wanting benefits that only come with being an EU member!

BoJo's deal removes the potential (and too likely, imo) to be kept within the EU - by the EU - that May's deal had, so that's the important 'improvement'!

If UK is leaving the EU, that 'close relationship' etc. must be removed - otherwise UK hasn't left (control by) the EU!

Again, May's deal was a Bad Deal (that, to quote her, was worse than No Deal) in that regard - it wasn't leaving the EU at all!  That's why it's important to get an FTA asap - rather poorer alternative to Customs Union imo, but controlled mutually - not purely by EU. Likewise, Single Market - huge benefit, imo, nut controlld by EU so has to be go - and replaced by a UK or mutually controlled mechanism. Same applies to/for Consumer Protection, Workplace Standards, Research co-operation, Cross Border Policing etc. that are currently under EU 'control' - UK has to find a way to achieve the current/desired levels of co-operation but under UK control!

In summary, *you are simply (consciously or unconsciously) continuing the Leave v Rermain debate - so haven't accepted the Referendum result!* And that also applies to many MPs as well. Until that (acceptance) happens, BoJo's deal will continue to be deemed to be 'poor'!
		
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Why would I want to accept something I know is fundamentally bad for Britain with regards to our closest trading bloc? 

I never said that May's deal was good, in fact compared to what we have now it was pretty poor, but the deal brought back by Boris is even worse for the reasons I outlined. We are also not going to arrange a FTA without significant sacrifices before Dec 2020, which means no deal. No safety net and an even bigger impact on the people of Britain. 

We'll be given a "take it or leave it" on most deals from the likes of the EU, the US, China etc. There will be no "taking back control"


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Bernard Ingham was Maggie's press sec / advisor and was probably the first of this new breed. Ever since then all parties have had outside advisors / strategists. Getting elected is a professional game now and once in power the aim is then to stay there. The shame is these advisors tend to work and look only short term and that is not necessarily good for the country.

I would say you are right to be worried, I agree with you.
		
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Ingham was also a former Civil Servant, so likely to had a lot of Government experience.
I agree with what Hobbit posted previously about surrounding yourself with experienced knowledgable personnel, but these days, these advisors appear to like the limelight rather than staying behind the scenes â€œadvisingâ€.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Was there any point in that reply.  Did I insult you, I simply made a comment but you wanted to make it personal.  I thought you had retired from this thread due to peoples attitude.
		
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Read the thread then before you post! I asked Hobbit in a direct post, you chose to say something, nobody asked for your input.
I came back to the thread to ask a question to someone more knowledgable than me, not to point score or post for the sake of it


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You say its not a game but if you look at the way many MPs have worked against Brexit while using weasel words saying they respect the referendum outcome it has become a farce.
You have the audacity to point your finger at others making accusations that they dont understand the ramifications of their views, *but you sir are one of the most blinkered self opinionated posters on this site, you have such vitriol and hatred *in your anti conservative outlook you have blinded yourself to anything Boris or his cabinet may achieve. He may not be perfect but it would be interesting to see what kind of job an armchair socialist like you (who has probably never been hard up) do in his place.   Your running scared and blinkered opinion really is rather pathetic.
		
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Have you ever stop to think that there is the potential that people see you the same way with the way you talk down to people on here 

Itâ€™s seems politics bring out the worst in some - I think some people need to see and understand that they see this whole process as damaging to the country - thatâ€™s just their opinion but itâ€™s one that comes from a good place


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Cheers Mate, although Iâ€™ve possibly confused you on the first point, Iâ€™m happy with the Civil Service advising, as you say they have experience and are answerable, Cummings isnâ€™t a Civil Servant so who does he answer to, heâ€™s described as a Political Strategist, so just some bloke off the street Boris likes? Yet possibly determining Government strategy and Policy. Itâ€™s these types that worry me!
		
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I guess he answers to Johnson, and if he gets it wrong I'd expect someone as cuddly as Johnson would drop him in a heartbeat.


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## robinthehood (Oct 25, 2019)

UK = civil servant
EU = unelected bureaucrat
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 25, 2019)

woody69 said:



			We'll be given a "take it or leave it" on most deals from the likes of the EU, the US, China etc. There will be no "taking back control"
		
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Why would the EU give us a take it or leave it deal? There has been pressure from German and Dutch manufacturers to agree a Brexit deal in the run up to the deadlines so far. Why would that change with regards to a trade deal after we have left?

For clarity - There might well have been pressure from other countries as well but I only have first hand knowledge of Germany and Netherlands due to working out there in that period.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Ingham was also a former Civil Servant, so likely to had a lot of Government experience.
I agree with what Hobbit posted previously about surrounding yourself with experienced knowledgable personnel, but these days, these advisors appear to like the limelight rather than staying behind the scenes â€œadvisingâ€.
		
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He was but his days of neutrality were long gone. 

My issue with the current crop is that they have minimal external experience, they are a bunch of graduate to lobby group to pr to advisor. Hardly any have been outside of the bubble and they rely too heavily on focus groups and polls. Maybe some have taken a different route but not many.

I think they are not afraid of the limelight now as they know they have a limited lifespan at the top and being known gets them a job as a lobbyist, corporate speaker, columnist, go to soundbite person for TV etc, no matter how rubbish and tarnished they were ðŸ˜•


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He was but his days of neutrality were long gone.

My issue with the current crop is that they have minimal external experience, they are a bunch of graduate to lobby group to pr to advisor. Hardly any have been outside of the bubble and they rely too heavily on focus groups and polls. Maybe some have taken a different route but not many.

I think they are not afraid of the limelight now as they know they have a limited lifespan at the top and being known gets them a job as a lobbyist, corporate speaker, columnist, go to soundbite person for TV etc, no matter how rubbish and tarnished they were ðŸ˜•
		
Click to expand...

Agreed mate, sad thing is, many decent politicians may lose their seat at the next GE, but these clowns will continue to be employed by someone.
Iâ€™ve come across and worked with literally hundreds of Civil Servants in different Government Departments in my time and as much we (squaddies) always gave them stick (banter  ) they are absolutely (99% of them) fully professional and very very good at their job.
Why anyone would listen to those advisors over a civil servant is beyond me!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have you ever stop to think that there is the potential that people see you the same way with the way you talk down to people on here 

Itâ€™s seems politics bring out the worst in some - I think some people need to see and understand that they see this whole process as damaging to the country - thatâ€™s just their opinion but itâ€™s one that comes from a good place
		
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Maybe you could look to yourself before preaching to me.


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## patricks148 (Oct 25, 2019)

brexiters keep sprouting 17M voted to leave.... 45 mil reg voters in the UK ... not really the will of the people is it


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 25, 2019)

Labour want a commitment from the government that no deal has been taken off the table before they will back a GE. But then Diane Abbott says that promises from the government aren't worth the paper they're written on. Considering that it's not possible for a current government to bind the hands of a future government it looks like they want something that the government can't give them.


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## woody69 (Oct 25, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174314083660816389


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Read the thread then before you post! I asked Hobbit in a direct post, you chose to say something, nobody asked for your input.
I came back to the thread to ask a question to someone more knowledgable than me, not to point score or post for the sake of it
		
Click to expand...

It's a public forum.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			brexiters keep sprouting 17M voted to leave.... 45 mil reg voters in the UK ... not really the will of the people is it

Click to expand...

As has been pointed out previously 16 million voted to remain.... 45 mil reg voters in the uk... Not really the will of the people is it:ðŸ¤£


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It's a public forum.
		
Click to expand...

Read your last post to Phil! 

Prior to you editing it to save face!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 25, 2019)

Funny though it seems, but every time I watch gogglebox and Brexit comes up .. none are in favour and given that 17.4million voted for it why are they not on there as the majority?? Oh well


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Read your last post to Phil! 

Prior to you editing it to save face!
		
Click to expand...

What!  You seem to be looking for an arguement tonight. Give it a break man or do as you said you would and stop posting due to not liking what people were saying.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What!  You seem to be looking for an arguement tonight. Give it a break man or do as you said you would and stop posting due to not liking what people were saying.
		
Click to expand...

So you didnâ€™t edit your reply to LP?
If you donâ€™t want an answer from me, stop directly replying to my posts and asking questions. Iâ€™d of hoped youâ€™d of learnt from the Boris thread tonight.


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## PieMan (Oct 25, 2019)

The good news is 'I'm a Celebrity' starts soon so Brexit won't be headline news as the return of Ant alongside Dec will thankfully dominate!! ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			brexiters keep sprouting 17M voted to leave.... 45 mil reg voters in the UK ... not really the will of the people is it

Click to expand...

Wasn't that the one that had the highest turn out ever for a national vote.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So you didnâ€™t edit your reply to LP?
If you donâ€™t want an answer from me, stop directly replying to my posts and asking questions. Iâ€™d of hoped youâ€™d of learnt from the Boris thread tonight.

Click to expand...

Err what. Learned what exactly.  If I decide to edit my own post thats nothing to do with you. Please stop being precious, anyone on this forum can answer any post. If you don't like that then don't post on forums.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Err what. Learned what exactly.  Please stop being precious, anyone on this forum can answer any post. If you don't like that then don't post on forums.
		
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 Brilliant, you had a go at LP for answering a post, edited and deleted it and now say it again to me, 
Well done you win the argument I was apparently looking for.
Youâ€™ve had words with 4 posters today, but itâ€™s not you.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



 Brilliant, you had a go at LP for answering a post, edited and deleted it and now say it again to me, 
Well done you win the argument I was apparently looking for.
Youâ€™ve had words with 4 posters today, but itâ€™s not you.

Click to expand...

You are acting imature and looking for an arguement here. Dont forget the PM you posted to me explaining how you were leaving the thread due to the many idiots posting here.
Oh! I had better add a few ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 25, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are acting imature and looking for an arguement here. Dont forget the PM you posted to me explaining how you were leaving the thread due to the many idiots posting here.
Oh! I had better add a few ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

OK you win.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			OK you win.

Click to expand...

Thanks ðŸ™„


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## patricks148 (Oct 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Wasn't that the one that had the highest turn out ever for a national vote.
		
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i thought that was Indyref?


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## Dando (Oct 26, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			brexiters keep sprouting 17M voted to leave.... 45 mil reg voters in the UK ... not really the will of the people is it

Click to expand...

Itâ€™s the will of the people who got off their arses to vote


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Dando said:



			Itâ€™s the will of the people who got off their arses to vote
		
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Indeed they did, but then they failed to give May or any one else a majority in the house to carry through the process.
So itâ€™s an irrelevant number now, thanks to the actions of the electorate.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 26, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			brexiters keep sprouting 17M voted to leave.... 45 mil reg voters in the UK ... not really the will of the people is it

Click to expand...

Not again. Don't you know how voting works? Of course you do.
You are just being silly.
I take it if you were organising the next referendum you would count those who voted in favour, and then subtract them from the Country's population of over 18s figure, as provided by the the relevant Official office , and the larger figure determines whether the question was carried or not.?
And it never would be carried would it.?  ðŸ™„
But, 
Why don't we do it your way, and make the question
" Should the U.K. remain in the EU? "
I'll go with the result , if you will.ðŸ˜€


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 26, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			brexiters keep sprouting 17M voted to leave.... 45 mil reg voters in the UK ... not really the will of the people is it

Click to expand...

Only a majority of the ones who could be arsed to go and vote.


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## Mudball (Oct 26, 2019)

The EU is going to hold a referendum.. to see is they should let UK remain.. what if they say they donâ€™t want us??


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			The EU is going to hold a referendum.. to see is they should let UK remain.. what if they say they donâ€™t want us??
		
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It might be a two part question .
Do you want the UK in the EU.?
Do you want the UKs money in the EU.?

Just on that ,I have always wondered what the answer would be if the English were asked if Scotland should be independent.
Wales and NI to follow.


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## Mudball (Oct 26, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			It might be a two part question .
Do you want the UK in the EU.?
Do you want the UKs money in the EU.?

Just on that ,I have always wondered what the answer would be if the English were asked if Scotland should be independent.
*Wales and NI to follow*.
		
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BoJoâ€™s deal has taken care of part of it.. NI stays in  EU Union and stays out of UK Customs..  so effectively devolved for trade purposes. I am assuming FoM between NI and GB may also be restricted after some time


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			BoJoâ€™s deal has taken care of part of it.. NI stays in  EU Union and stays out of UK Customs..  so effectively devolved for trade purposes. I am assuming FoM between NI and GB may also be restricted after some time
		
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I donâ€™t think the politicians will be asking the voters any more questions for a long time after they have sorted Brexit.
SNP might if she gets her way.


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## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Why would I want to accept something I know is fundamentally bad for Britain with regards to our closest trading bloc?
...
		
Click to expand...

Because, notwithstanding my belief that trade will not suffer 'fundamentally', merely a short term dip and may even emerge better than , if you don't, you are 'denying democracy' and don't deserve to have any say!
All the rest is simply (classic) negativity!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2019)

Worth a read if you think the â€œWorkersâ€ will be looked after once we leave the EU.
https://www.ft.com/content/5eb0944e-f67c-11e9-9ef3-eca8fc8f2d65


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## pauljames87 (Oct 26, 2019)




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## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2019)

But you should add 'All Black supporters - back to 8:59 this morning'!


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## pauljames87 (Oct 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:




But you should add 'All Black supporters - back to 8:59 this morning'!

Click to expand...

Lol need to edit it.. boris was never that popular lol


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## Mudball (Oct 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Because, notwithstanding my belief that trade will not suffer 'fundamentally', merely a *short term dip* and may even emerge better than , if you don't, you are 'denying democracy' and don't deserve to have any say!
All the rest is simply (classic) negativity!
		
Click to expand...

How short is short?  Current Govt economic model based it at 15 years - to an untrained eye that is a generation. 
15 yrs for a 50+ impacts social care and NHS and environment etc.
15 yrs for someone leaving college means over a decade of low paying jobs, no jobs, housing challenges etc..

This is a choice against a working system - albeit not a perfect one


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## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			How short is short?  Current Govt economic model based it at 15 years - to an untrained eye that is a generation....
		
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I'd set 'a generation' at 25-30 years. Average age of a woman at birth of 1st child is 30 (surprisingly high to me). 

'Short' term, for me, is up to 1 Election cycle - 5 Years. 'Near term', for me, is up to 2 Election cycles. Comparison to Election cycle is deliberate - as thats what politician's focus is on!


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## Fade and Die (Oct 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



*I'd set 'a generation' at 25-30 years.* Average age of a woman at birth of 1st child is 30 (surprisingly high to me).

'Short' term, for me, is up to 1 
Election cycle - 5 Years. 'Near term', for me, is up to 2 Election cycles. Comparison to Election cycle is deliberate - as thats what politician's focus is on!
		
Click to expand...

According to the SNP itâ€™s 5 years. ðŸ‘


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## Hitdaball (Oct 26, 2019)

https://news.sky.com/story/violence...rexit-say-majority-of-voters-in-poll-11843952

Appalling from both sides of the fence.


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## Mudball (Oct 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'd set 'a generation' at 25-30 years. Average age of a woman at birth of 1st child is 30 (surprisingly high to me).

*'Short' term, for me, is up to 1 Election cycle - 5 Years.* 'Near term', for me, is up to 2 Election cycles. Comparison to Election cycle is deliberate - as thats what politician's focus is on!
		
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by that definition and by Govt calculations, you are looking at Mid-Long term Disruption and setbacks before the UK regains itâ€™s current position.. from there another few election before it starts growing.  I am not sure about you, but that to me looks like the rest of my productive working career  wiped out ..


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



https://news.sky.com/story/violence...rexit-say-majority-of-voters-in-poll-11843952

Appalling from both sides of the fence.
		
Click to expand...

Totally, people are deeply frustrated. Each side is winding each other up. I would like or hope that there is a sensible majority leave or stay who will prevail. Leaving without a plan is stupid as is remaining without a strategy.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 26, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



https://news.sky.com/story/violence...rexit-say-majority-of-voters-in-poll-11843952

Appalling from both sides of the fence.
		
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As bad as some MPs are there is never room for violence.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Totally, people are deeply frustrated. Each side is winding each other up. I would like or hope that there is a sensible majority leave or stay who will prevail. Leaving without a plan is stupid as is remaining without a strategy.
		
Click to expand...

If they eventually overturn the ref I can see it getting worse .
The MPs are bad but some take it to far.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Funny though it seems, but every time I watch gogglebox and Brexit comes up .. none are in favour and given that 17.4million voted for it why are they not on there as the majority?? Oh well
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps googlebox is the measure of a remainers mentality


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps googlebox is the measure of a remainers mentality 

Click to expand...

Was waiting for that .. but we are not seeing very many of the 17.4 Million breaking cover apart from a select few on here.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If they eventually overturn the ref I can see it getting worse .
The MPs are bad but some take it to far.
		
Click to expand...

Yes if we read the stats from that report there is a higher prevalence to violence from the Leave side .. and itâ€™s bigger than the winning % ..


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## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			by that definition and by Govt calculations, you are looking at Mid-Long term Disruption and setbacks before the UK regains itâ€™s current position.. from there another few election before it starts growing.  I am not sure about you, but that to me looks like the rest of my productive working career  wiped out ..
		
Click to expand...

My 'Near Term' *definition* (as opposed to my earlier 'short term *description*' - noting the different terms) would seem more appropriate to me, though dealing with the EU always seems to take longer than it should, so maybe heading toward 'Mid Term'.
I'd challenge how, following an assumed dip, UK can 'regain its current position' without growing!
Also Brexit, however significant any dip might be, is hardly likely to 'wipe out' a 'productive working career' - except maybe for some whose career is dealing with th EU!

Brits won't suddenly get poorer because of Brexit (or even No Brexit)! But different bits of the economy are likely to be affected differently, some negatively; others positively.

Btw. I'm 66, so likely even further along the 'productive working career' path!


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## Mudball (Oct 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			My 'Near Term' *definition* (as opposed to my earlier 'short term *description*' - noting the different terms) would seem more appropriate to me, though dealing with the EU always seems to take longer than it should, so maybe heading toward 'Mid Term'.
I'd challenge how, following an assumed dip, UK can 'regain its current position' without growing!
Also Brexit, however significant any dip might be, is hardly likely to 'wipe out' a 'productive working career' - except maybe for some whose career is dealing with th EU!

Brits won't suddenly get poorer because of Brexit (or even No Brexit)! But different bits of the economy are likely to be affected differently, some negatively; others positively.

Btw. I'm 66, so likely even further along the 'productive working career' path!
		
Click to expand...

After the dip.. it will grow.  But that growth is to regain its current position. Depending on spin, you can say the tories are going to add 20k police officers. The reality is that they are only filling the gap they created in the first place.  

Our line of business (technology) is highly dependent on ability to import and export talent into the EU. Clients are global and we need to ensure we serve them anywhere they want. So FoM and being competitive on the Â£ is crucial and so is certainty. A decade of naval gazing and looking inwards is not going to make us more competitive esp when the world is flat.


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## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			...
Our line of business (technology) is highly dependent on ability to import and export talent into the EU. Clients are global and we need to ensure we serve them anywhere they want. So FoM and being competitive on the Â£ is crucial and so is certainty. A decade of naval gazing and looking inwards is not going to make us more competitive esp when the world is flat.
		
Click to expand...

Then adjust! That's what businesses - or at least ones that survive/flourish in a competitive world - do!


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## Mudball (Oct 26, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Then adjust! That's what businesses - or at least ones that survive/flourish in a competitive world - do!
		
Click to expand...

I never said we wonâ€™t adjust.. we will. The first thing we are doing is move the EMEA campus out of London to a European city..  so about 500 jobs will relocate. I agree we will adjust - however we could have thrived


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2019)




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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes if we read the stats from that report there is a higher prevalence to violence from the Leave side .. and itâ€™s bigger than the winning % ..
		
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm being a little cynical but why just highlight the Leave side? From what I can remember from reading the article a couple/few days back its the majority of both sides surveyed who said they don't see anything wrong with violence towards MP's.

60% of Leave in England and, I think, 58% of Remain.... and you only highlight Leave... Really? Subconscious bias or a genuine attempt to take some moral high ground?

If you take the numbers from both sides, extrapolate them out, you're looking at 8,000,000 people who think its ok. I'd like to think that, like many polls, its no where near that but even if its 8,000, or 800 or 80 or 8, its just wrong.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe I'm being a little cynical but why just highlight the Leave side? From what I can remember from reading the article a couple/few days back its the majority of both sides surveyed who said they don't see anything wrong with violence towards MP's.

60% of Leave in England and, I think, 58% of Remain.... and you only highlight Leave... Really? Subconscious bias or a genuine attempt to take some moral high ground?

If you take the numbers from both sides, extrapolate them out, you're looking at 8,000,000 people who think its ok. I'd like to think that, like many polls, its no where near that but even if its 8,000, or 800 or 80 or 8, its just wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Technically he is correct ! It is higher.
But you can make statistics say what you want.
Like 52% is higher than 48%


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Technically he is correct ! It is higher.
But you can make statistics say what you want.
Like 52% is higher than 48%
		
Click to expand...

I know he's correct. That I'm not disputing in the slightest but is it then ok for the 58% of Remainers to resort to violence? Should not the concern be that people from both sides think its ok to resort to violence?

Why do so many think its ok? What is being done to find the root causes and address them?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I know he's correct. That I'm not disputing in the slightest but is it then ok for the 58% of Remainers to resort to violence? Should not the concern be that people from both sides think its ok to resort to violence?

Why do so many think its ok? What is being done to find the root causes and address them?
		
Click to expand...

No your right completely itâ€™s disgraceful.
But the previous post threatened action from the leave side if we chose to remain and I was highlighting that the stats would indicate larger numbers would kick off.
But let me reiterate it would be disgraceful behaviour irrespective of the side.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I know he's correct. That I'm not disputing in the slightest but is it then ok for the 58% of Remainers to resort to violence? Should not the concern be that people from both sides think its ok to resort to violence?

Why do so many think its ok? What is being done to find the root causes and address them?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe we are being bombarded by whatâ€™s happening in the likes of Hong Kong.
Where the people will not tolerate poor decisions from government.
We are pretty casual about things like this but I do detect a change in the people.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			No your right completely itâ€™s disgraceful.
But the previous post threatened action from the leave side if we chose to remain and I was highlighting that the stats would indicate larger numbers would kick off.
But let me reiterate it would be disgraceful behaviour irrespective of the side.
		
Click to expand...

If the UK donâ€™t leave then I suspect there will pockets of rioting because a public vote will have been ignored 

Regardless of which way people voted the politicians actions are all down to their own self preservation and thatâ€™s not going to go down well with people

And ultimately when we do leave and if it turns out to be a shocking thing to do then people who voted to leave will react 

Either way the future isnâ€™t pretty at the moment


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If the UK donâ€™t leave then I suspect there will pockets of rioting because a public vote will have been ignored

Regardless of which way people voted the politicians actions are all down to their own self preservation and thatâ€™s not going to go down well with people

And ultimately when we do leave and if it turns out to be a shocking thing to do then people who voted to leave will react

Either way the future isnâ€™t pretty at the moment
		
Click to expand...

The scary thing is if the GE is fought in a manner that courses further divides we could be be in a horrific situation.
They must unite


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			i thought that was Indyref?
		
Click to expand...

Not at all, it was the EU teferendum, over 70% turn out from memory.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Not at all, it was the EU teferendum, over 70% turn out from memory.
		
Click to expand...

Over 80% turnout for Scotland referendum 72% for EU


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## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I never said we wonâ€™t adjust.. we will. The first thing we are doing is move the EMEA campus out of London to a European city..  so about 500 jobs will relocate. I agree we will adjust - however we could have thrived
		
Click to expand...

Seems eminently sensible and demonstrates another reason why I voted Remain - it's not simply a case of 'losing business', but 'losing businesses'!
But again, accept the result, adjust, where required, and move on!


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2019)

The 17.4m 'v' 16.2m continues to raise it head and is used as a reason for a re-run or stopping Brexit completely. Many Remainers have shouted it, and shouted it.

Here's a thought; how many people pushed for another GE straight after the last one? Why? Well, the difference between first and second in that GE was less than 1m. How many times has anyone shouted for another GE because the vote was so narrow, and it also didn't reach 50% of those who voted, only 45.6% voted Tory.

We could argue the toss on FPTP 'v' proportional representation. Fire away but that wasn't the rules surrounding the last GE.

Makes you wonder...??


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The 17.4m 'v' 16.2m continues to raise it head and is used as a reason for a re-run or stopping Brexit completely. Many Remainers have shouted it, and shouted it.

Here's a thought; how many people pushed for another GE straight after the last one? Why? Well, the difference between first and second in that GE was less than 1m. How many times has anyone shouted for another GE because the vote was so narrow, and it also didn't reach 50% of those who voted, only 45.6% voted Tory.

We could argue the toss on FPTP 'v' proportional representation. Fire away but that wasn't the rules surrounding the last GE.

Makes you wonder...??
		
Click to expand...

The GE nullified the referendum making it yesterdayâ€™s news. No point quoting the referendum figures ... the GE was an opportunity not taken


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The GE nullified the referendum making it yesterdayâ€™s news. No point quoting the referendum figures ... the GE was an opportunity not taken
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that down to personal interpretation. I don't equate a GE with a referendum. Simply, a GE is about who manages all aspects of the UK.

But to go with your logic, both the Tories and Labour campaigned on a very solid Leave mandate. Does that mean 97.5%, the combined Tory/Labour vote, of the voters were in favour of Leave?

Don't get me wrong, I'm asking (almost) rhetorical questions.


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## robinthehood (Oct 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The 17.4m 'v' 16.2m continues to raise it head and is used as a reason for a re-run or stopping Brexit completely. Many Remainers have shouted it, and shouted it.

Here's a thought; how many people pushed for another GE straight after the last one? Why? Well, the difference between first and second in that GE was less than 1m. How many times has anyone shouted for another GE because the vote was so narrow, and it also didn't reach 50% of those who voted, only 45.6% voted Tory.

We could argue the toss on FPTP 'v' proportional representation. Fire away but that wasn't the rules surrounding the last GE.

Makes you wonder...??
		
Click to expand...

Because a GE is not voted in the same way a referendum is...... one was binary choice the other fptp constituency and seats...What a daft comparison


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## Fade and Die (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Was waiting for that .. but we are not seeing very many of the 17.4 Million breaking cover apart from a select few on here.
		
Click to expand...

Or you have highlighted the MSM bias beautifully. Top man.ðŸ‘


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Isn't that down to personal interpretation. I don't equate a GE with a referendum. Simply, a GE is about who manages all aspects of the UK.

But to go with your logic, both the Tories and Labour campaigned on a very solid Leave mandate. Does that mean 97.5%, the combined Tory/Labour vote, of the voters were in favour of Leave?

Don't get me wrong, I'm asking (almost) rhetorical questions.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s a fair point but the Toryâ€™s owned Brexit. Voting for anyone else was saying they disagreed with the Tory leave vision. But also was pretty silly if you wanted to leave ..


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Or you have highlighted the MSM bias beautifully. Top man.ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

MSM?


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## robinthehood (Oct 26, 2019)

Main stream media I'm guessing


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Main stream media I'm guessing
		
Click to expand...

Ah so if the main stream ignore it does it make it a minority? And itâ€™s only a select few who want to leave (loudly)


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thatâ€™s a fair point but the Toryâ€™s owned Brexit. Voting for anyone else was saying they disagreed with the Tory leave vision. But also was pretty silly if you wanted to leave ..
		
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I didn't see any manifesto pledges that said the Tory version of Brexit was different than Labour's. Apart from some Tory or Labour MPs arguing for anything different, e.g. Ken Clarke, just who in 2017 in the two main parties was vary different? A small minority? They have very much gone their separate ways since without a doubt. 

Remember how many Labour voters voted for Brexit, almost a 1/3. I'm just not seeing it the way you are.

Also, if you went up to Sunderland or Teesside as a Tory candidate and offered many of the voters up there the Crown Jewels and exactly the Brexit they voted for they still wouldn't vote Tory. You've only got look look at the different constituencies that have historically voted for one or the other. Add in the ex-mining communities. The vast majority will always vote the same way.


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## Imurg (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thatâ€™s a fair point but the Toryâ€™s owned Brexit. Voting for anyone else was saying they disagreed with the Tory leave vision. But also was pretty silly if you wanted to leave ..
		
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So if I'm a die hard lifelong Labour voter who thought May was the Devil incarnate but I still want to leave the EU I should vote Tory...???
What the actual..........


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Imurg said:



			So if I'm a die hard lifelong Labour voter who thought May was the Devil incarnate but I still want to leave the EU I should vote Tory...???
What the actual..........

Click to expand...

There is the challenge and you are going to have to get your head round it ... these are the Brexit battle lines.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I didn't see any manifesto pledges that said the Tory version of Brexit was different than Labour's. Apart from some Tory or Labour MPs arguing for anything different, e.g. Ken Clarke, just who in 2017 in the two main parties was vary different? A small minority? They have very much gone their separate ways since without a doubt.

Remember how many Labour voters voted for Brexit, almost a 1/3. I'm just not seeing it the way you are.

Also, if you went up to Sunderland or Teesside as a Tory candidate and offered many of the voters up there the Crown Jewels and exactly the Brexit they voted for they still wouldn't vote Tory. You've only got look look at the different constituencies that have historically voted for one or the other. Add in the ex-mining communities. The vast majority will always vote the same way.
		
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Yup and as in reply to Imurg if you want it you need to embrace the change of strategy


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yup and as in reply to Imurg if you want it you need to embrace the change of strategy
		
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I don't want it - it costs me a lot of money every month. And the 'friendly' Spanish administration isn't being so friendly now, as the UK hasn't reciprocated the offer made in March by the Spanish govt on residency rights, driving licences and healthcare.

I'm just asking a series of questions around who voted for what in a GE and why that isn't argued for a rerun but the referendum is. I'm trying to show a different slant and asking why...


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I don't want it - it costs me a lot of money every month. And the 'friendly' Spanish administration isn't being so friendly now, as the UK hasn't reciprocated the offer made in March by the Spanish govt on residency rights, driving licences and healthcare.

I'm just asking a series of questions around who voted for what in a GE and why that isn't argued for a rerun but the referendum is. I'm trying to show a different slant and asking why...
		
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I can only imagine the issues and it does sound like the ex pat community has been forgotten or has become collateral damage.
But the point was about breaking from the norm and actually seeing the government coming in is just to answer the Brexit question- when thatâ€™s done go back to the norm .. if possible. 
The truth is, they will all be arguing, a majority party is required or we will have the general dicking about


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## Fade and Die (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			MSM?
		
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Yes the Main Stream Media, aka the weapons of mass deception....(You know they love gullible people who think gogglebox is some sort of barometer of Britain!ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚)


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes the Main Stream Media, aka the weapons of mass deception....(You know they love gullible people who think gogglebox is some sort of barometer of Britain!ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚)
		
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Bit like Farage and Rees Mogg ?


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## Fade and Die (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Bit like Farage and Rees Mogg ?
		
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What think Gogglebox is a Gallup poll? No thatâ€™s just you. ðŸ™„


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			What think Gogglebox is a Gallup poll? No thatâ€™s just you. ðŸ™„
		
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Didnâ€™t think it was a barometer but was surprised that no leave views were aired. Given you keep telling us 17.4 million voices means there is a majority.

But Farage and Mogg have preyed on the gullible ..


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## Dando (Oct 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			What think Gogglebox is a Gallup poll? No thatâ€™s just you. ðŸ™„
		
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Donâ€™t forget slogans on buses ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


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## JamesR (Oct 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes the Main Stream Media, aka the weapons of mass deception....(You know they love gullible people who think gogglebox is some sort of barometer of Britain!ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚)
		
Click to expand...

Christ, you sound like youâ€™ve Just read the Donald Trump whingerâ€™s playbook...ðŸ˜©ðŸ˜©ðŸ˜«


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## Fade and Die (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Didnâ€™t think it was a barometer but was *surprised that no leave views were aired*. Given you keep telling us 17.4 million voices means there is a majority.

But Farage and Mogg have preyed on the gullible ..
		
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I wasnâ€™t, the establishment is 100% behind remain. Stifling the view of leavers is all part of the MO.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2019)

Cheer up.




__ https://www.facebook.com/336812756410050/posts/2486285961462708


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I wasnâ€™t, the establishment is 100% behind remain. Stifling the view of leavers is all part of the MO.
		
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Cobblers, we have leave views on mainstream media .. I cannot help it if the majority come across as muppets.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Christ, you sound like youâ€™ve Just read the Donald Trump whingerâ€™s playbook...ðŸ˜©ðŸ˜©ðŸ˜«
		
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I could easily post 500 articles like this and you would still not acknowledge the bias.....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/9537730/bbc-anti-brexit-propaganda/amp/

None so blind etc.


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## robinthehood (Oct 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I could easily post 500 articles like this and you would still not acknowledge the bias.....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/9537730/bbc-anti-brexit-propaganda/amp/

None so blind etc.
		
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Using the sun to prove a point about bias.... 

Oof.


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## Hitdaball (Oct 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I could easily post 500 articles like this and you would still not acknowledge the bias.....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/9537730/bbc-anti-brexit-propaganda/amp/

None so blind etc.
		
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Oh look an article from The Sun , Iâ€™m surprised you made it past page 3.


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## Hitdaball (Oct 26, 2019)

In other news...

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...Yj5ho4W1r1P-_rdHNMUZ4s4#.Xas_Cm28KF4.facebook


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I could easily post 500 articles like this and you would still not acknowledge the bias.....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/9537730/bbc-anti-brexit-propaganda/amp/

None so blind etc.
		
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Nope means nothing to me, letâ€™s be honest the number of leavers were not reflected in May election. Ball dropped there.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Using the sun to prove a point about bias....

Oof.
		
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Woof...predictable lazy reply. Goodnight, Iâ€™ll leave you remainer fundamentalists to it. ðŸ˜´


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## JamesR (Oct 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I could easily post 500 articles like this and you would still not acknowledge the bias.....

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/9537730/bbc-anti-brexit-propaganda/amp/

None so blind etc.
		
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My god, youâ€™re quoting the sun and going on about gogglebox!
Talk about low brow ðŸ™„


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## JamesR (Oct 26, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Woof...predictable lazy reply. Goodnight, Iâ€™ll leave you remainer fundamentalists to it. ðŸ˜´
		
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Faded and Died ðŸ‘‹ðŸ‘‹ðŸ‘‹


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

I think gogglebox just proves the point ... irrespective of high or low brow, statistically there should have been people expressing leave views.


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## JamesR (Oct 26, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think gogglebox just proves the point ... irrespective of high or low brow, statistically there should have been people expressing leave views.
		
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I thought they just expressed views about soap operas and strictly


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I thought they just expressed views about soap operas and strictly
		
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Never even heard of it.


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## JamesR (Oct 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Never even heard of it.
		
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Not missed anything Brian, lowest common denominator type stuff ðŸ’©


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Not missed anything Brian, lowest common denominator type stuff ðŸ’©
		
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But very amusing


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## drdel (Oct 26, 2019)

So the SNP and the LibDems have written to Tusk requesting at delay and then they will request a GE on Monday. Quite some bedfellows.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2019)

drdel said:



			So the SNP and the LibDems have written to Tusk requesting at delay and then they will request a GE on Monday. Quite some bedfellows.
		
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Seems natural enough .. they prefer to remain.
Oh and for the low brow contingent they like orange ðŸ‘ðŸ˜Ž


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Never even heard of it.
		
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Its only watched by Harpick. You have to be clean round the bend.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 26, 2019)

drdel said:



			So the SNP and the LibDems have written to Tusk requesting at delay and then they will request a GE on Monday. Quite some bedfellows.
		
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I can see the logic of the s np supports as they'll be looking to Hoover up some more seat s but lib dums ???

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-10-26...cember-general-election-writes-robert-peston/


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## robinthehood (Oct 26, 2019)

Interesting to see leaks regarding the cutting back of workers rights and environmental commitments post brexit.
However not a surprise.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			So the SNP and the LibDems have written to Tusk requesting at delay and then they will request a GE on Monday. Quite some bedfellows.
		
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I would have thought the EU would only negotiate with the UK goverment.
They can ask but do they have any clout.?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Interesting to see leaks regarding the cutting back of workers rights and environmental commitments post brexit.
However not a surprise.
		
Click to expand...

See post #15,547


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## Mudball (Oct 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Nope means nothing to me, letâ€™s be honest the number of leavers were not reflected in May election. Ball dropped there.
		
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Could it be because, we were told that the old wanted to leave (while the non-voting young wanted to Remain).   So maybe the old have now died and so the majority now wants to stay.   Wasnt there another stat that about 500k  old people have died since Brexshit Ref, and so the vote has swung.  Or is this more MSM propaganda ?

Edit:  Found the link >> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html 
and https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/19/britain-turns-remain-today-elderly-leavers-die-survey-claims-8363505/


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			I can see the logic of the s np supports as they'll be looking to Hoover up some more seat s but lib dums ???

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-10-26...cember-general-election-writes-robert-peston/

Click to expand...

Likely UK election results in Scotland will be :-
Brexit party will split the dying dregs of the Tory vote if they have the guts to field candidates.
Lib Dems will be looking for a new leader and reduce their MP's in Scotland to 2 or 3.
The 13 Tory Scots MP's look like being reduced to 2 or 3.
SNP to gain around 15 seats.
You can see why Scots Tories and Liberals don't want an election.
Hooray for a FPTP electoral system.
50 Scots SNP MP's would cause havoc to any Westminster government trying to pass laws.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would have thought the EU would only negotiate with the UK goverment.
They can ask but do they have any clout.?
		
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It is not really a working Government though is it, minority of 44 seats.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 27, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Could it be because, we were told that the old wanted to leave (while the non-voting young wanted to Remain).   So maybe the old have now died and so the majority now wants to stay.   Wasnt there another stat that about 500k  old people have died since Brexshit Ref, and so the vote has swung.  Or is this more MSM propaganda ?

Edit:  Found the link >> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html
and https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/19/britain-turns-remain-today-elderly-leavers-die-survey-claims-8363505/

Click to expand...

They say this indeed

Also they say since the ref you have all those who were 15-17 at the time who are now old enough to vote who are pro staying in EU 

You never will know tho. Will go on until the end of time 

Should never have been given to the general public to decide. No matter what the outcome it just causes division


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## drdel (Oct 27, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			They say this indeed

Also they say since the ref you have all those who were 15-17 at the time who are now old enough to vote who are pro staying in EU

You never will know tho. Will go on until the end of time

Should never have been given to the general public to decide. No matter what the outcome it just causes division
		
Click to expand...

Yup. Just statistically twas always going to be about + or - 5% error rate with millions voting on a binary selection.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is not really a working Government though is it, minority of 44 seats.
		
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Itâ€™s still the government though.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Itâ€™s still the government though.
		
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Debatable.
Hamstrung and any sensible person not trusting a single word that they say.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Debatable.
Hamstrung and any sensible person not trusting a single word that they say.
		
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Itâ€™s not debatable Boris is PM until the GE .
Spineless opposition who do nothing but whine they want one then say NO when offered.
Off to the EU crying â€œitâ€™s not us itâ€™s themâ€ .

Not defending anyone here they are all as bad as each other.


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## drdel (Oct 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Debatable.
Hamstrung and any sensible person not trusting a single word that they say.
		
Click to expand...

cf. Blackford, Sturgeon +++!


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			cf. Blackford, Sturgeon +++!
		
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My thoughts but didnâ€™t want to get into Scottish politics ,I am off for 9 holes in the water.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I thought they just expressed views about soap operas and strictly
		
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Nah, they were watching the commons debates on the euro votes .. Boris was not viewed positively nor was the Brexit situation.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Interesting to see leaks regarding the cutting back of workers rights and environmental commitments post brexit.
However not a surprise.
		
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Plus the drop dead date for the new tax evasion laws ..


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## Mudball (Oct 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Debatable.
Hamstrung and any sensible person not trusting a single word that they say.
		
Click to expand...

you should start your Statement as â€˜Acc to reliable source within No 10... â€˜


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Plus the drop dead date for the new tax evasion laws ..
		
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I think the first thing the Tories will hit [if elected] is holiday entitlement.
6 weeks in the EU
2 weeks in the USA


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Could it be because, we were told that the old wanted to leave (while the non-voting young wanted to Remain).   So maybe the old have now died and so the majority now wants to stay.   Wasnt there another stat that about 500k  old people have died since Brexshit Ref, and so the vote has swung.  Or is this more MSM propaganda ?

Edit:  Found the link >> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html
and https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/19/britain-turns-remain-today-elderly-leavers-die-survey-claims-8363505/

Click to expand...

For sure there is a case, I do think there is resentment as well at being denied opportunities by people who have had them all of their working life. I donâ€™t see Europeans stealing our jobs I just see English people no bothered to to work hard enough to get those qualifications or do the graft to get up the ladder.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			cf. Blackford, Sturgeon +++!
		
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To the best of my knowledge neither Ian or Nicola have been sacked from their workplace for lying [not even once ]


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## pauljames87 (Oct 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			For sure there is a case, I do think there is resentment as well at being denied opportunities by people who have had them all of their working life. I donâ€™t see Europeans stealing our jobs I just see English people no bothered to to work hard enough to get those qualifications or do the graft to get up the ladder.
		
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Whilst I agree with this in the main I went to a 2 year olds birthday today and one the mum's I know has started an apprenticeship in hairdressing however childcare for her daughter is Â£900 pm, she would be better off not working she said but wants to better herself long term. Good on her! Need more people with that attuide however it does highlight the issue of how much it costs just to have your kid looked after whilst you earn your money to provide for them


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst I agree with this in the main I went to a 2 year olds birthday today and one the mum's I know has started an apprenticeship in hairdressing however childcare for her daughter is Â£900 pm, she would be better off not working she said but wants to better herself long term. Good on her! Need more people with that attuide however it does highlight the issue of how much it costs just to have your kid looked after whilst you earn your money to provide for them
		
Click to expand...

Yes child care is horrifically expensive- we worked it out it would cost Â£38k to do it so we would require a job in excess of Â£70k to afford it. 
However we did find a child minder that charged Â£4/hr and I got care vouchers. So I could buy time tax efficiently.
So the point is it is possible and you can do it. My brother in law has Au Pairs and that works out okay for them. The cost is different and you need to accommodate and feed them and they will work 5 days a week. 
There are ways around it all but it is a fine line and if your kid vomits at school you have to have 48 hrs out. Plus the schools enforce attendance to the end of term even if they are just watching videos etc .. making holidays expensive.
But all of this is the benefits of being a parent and things that should be considered before you have them.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes child care is horrifically expensive- we worked it out it would cost Â£38k to do it so we would require a job in excess of Â£70k to afford it.
However we did find a child minder that charged Â£4/hr and I got care vouchers. So I could buy time tax efficiently.
So the point is it is possible and you can do it. My brother in law has Au Pairs and that works out okay for them. The cost is different and you need to accommodate and feed them and they will work 5 days a week.
There are ways around it all but it is a fine line and if your kid vomits at school you have to have 48 hrs out. Plus the schools enforce attendance to the end of term even if they are just watching videos etc .. making holidays expensive.
But all of this is the benefits of being a parent and things that should be considered before you have them.
		
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Indeed. Too many people don't think about it but sometimes life gets in the way and people don't want to make a choice when already pregnant that they won't keep just because they can't afford to. 

I'm very lucky ..both grandmother's can't get enough of the little one. My mum phased retired and my wife's mum dropped a day .. my wife went part time so between them we are covered every day. Even though we could afford the childcare this way we could have the grandparents enjoying their time with her and us using the money for something else 

Not everyone is this lucky tho. My colleague had his wife give up work to be full time childcare as all her wage was going on childcare at the time. 

If only the cost of living was reasonable again for one person to work and the other to provide Childcare if they choose.

Progress I guess lol


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## Mudball (Oct 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes child care is horrifically expensive- we worked it out it would cost Â£38k to do it so we would require a job in excess of Â£70k to afford it.
However we did find a child minder that charged Â£4/hr and I got care vouchers. So I could buy time tax efficiently.
So the point is it is possible and you can do it. My brother in law has Au Pairs and that works out okay for them. The cost is different and you need to accommodate and feed them and they will work 5 days a week.
There are ways around it all but it is a fine line and if your kid vomits at school you have to have 48 hrs out. Plus the schools enforce attendance to the end of term even if they are just watching videos etc .. making holidays expensive.
But all of this is the benefits of being a parent and things that should be considered before you have them.
		
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While i empathise with the general gist of the post, i do tend to think that these ways are not available to everyone.   While your company may provide childcare vouchers - not everyone does.  Difficult if you are a hairdresser or self employed (that could be a generalisation).  Now the lovely govt has withdrawn childcare vouchers for new applicants.  

The most affordable Au Pairs were (generally) East Europeans - but this will stop once we stop FOM as this wont be seen as key skill that pays over say Â£30K.  That will leave Aussies and other antipods. 

Soon, Kids will only be allowed for those who earn 100K or on benefits.    

<rant over>


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Yes child care is horrifically expensive- we worked it out it would cost Â£38k to do it so we would require a job in excess of Â£70k to afford it.
However we did find a child minder that charged Â£4/hr and I got care vouchers. So I could buy time tax efficiently.
So the point is it is possible and you can do it. My brother in law has Au Pairs and that works out okay for them. The cost is different and you need to accommodate and feed them and they will work 5 days a week.
There are ways around it all but it is a fine line and if your kid vomits at school you have to have 48 hrs out. Plus the schools enforce attendance to the end of term even if they are just watching videos etc .. making holidays expensive.
But all of this is the benefits of being a parent and things that should be considered before you have them.
		
Click to expand...

Another  benefit of being in the EU,  child care at slave labour rates and much of it for armchair socialists.  Suit you Sir.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2019)

Mudball said:



			While i empathise with the general gist of the post, i do tend to think that these ways are not available to everyone.   While your company may provide childcare vouchers - not everyone does.  Difficult if you are a hairdresser or self employed (that could be a generalisation).  Now the lovely govt has withdrawn childcare vouchers for new applicants. 

The most affordable Au Pairs were (generally) East Europeans - but this will stop once we stop FOM as this wont be seen as key skill that pays over say Â£30K.  That will leave Aussies and other antipods.

Soon, Kids will only be allowed for those who earn 100K or on benefits.   

<rant over>
		
Click to expand...

No you are completely right, having kids access to a quality life should go hand in hand.
For sure we go without expensive holidays abroad and make do with the UK. Make do is actually belittling the adventures we have had in the UK. Both my wife and I are well travelled and when it is the right time we will take the boy out for some foreign adventures.
I do find though that people tend to not understand that you can get by - new clubs every year is not required, paying interest on car loans - why bother, having the latest mobile phone - unnecessary they have hardly improved on the key attributes.. etc
But the cost of living needs to reduce. But we need to invest in the services.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another  benefit of being in the EU,  child care at slave labour rates and much of it for armchair socialists.  Suit you Sir.
		
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*yawn* 
When you going sort out this round ?


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2019)

Wow! Anger doesn't even come close.

I live in Spain for, in the main, 2 reasons. The weather and the cost of living. My pension goes about 40% further out here, e.g. my annual council tax bill is less a year than what I paid a month in the UK. And our gas bill is about Â£6/mth. 25* and sunny today.

I watch English TV, I subscribe to several English papers, I watched the rugby yesterday. I am English, and I hold an British passport. I am eligible for an Irish passport but to apply for one would be for convenience only, and I'm English.

What happens post-Brexit; the state sponsored healthcare many expats rely on ends - we're lucky as we can afford and have private HC. Currently, pensioners see their pensions rise each year as per if they were living in the UK. That ends at the end of the transition period. Why? Brexit is about the UK leaving the EU, so why mess with people's pensions? That's been common knowledge amongst the Expat community for quite sometime but have read of the next paragraph.

And the final 'insult;' on the official Gov.UK website from which expats get a lot of info, as of the end of the transition period British passport holders living outside of the UK will need to apply for a visa to enter Britain. Those British citizens who decide the return to the UK to live after the end of the transition period will have to apply for the right to reside. Really? You've got to be 'kin joking.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! Anger doesn't even come close.

I live in Spain for, in the main, 2 reasons. The weather and the cost of living. My pension goes about 40% further out here, e.g. my annual council tax bill is less a year than what I paid a month in the UK. And our gas bill is about Â£6/mth. 25* and sunny today.

I watch English TV, I subscribe to several English papers, I watched the rugby yesterday. I am English, and I hold an British passport. I am eligible for an Irish passport but to apply for one would be for convenience only, and I'm English.

What happens post-Brexit; the state sponsored healthcare many expats rely on ends - we're lucky as we can afford and have private HC. Currently, pensioners see their pensions rise each year as per if they were living in the UK. That ends at the end of the transition period. Why? Brexit is about the UK leaving the EU, so why mess with people's pensions? That's been common knowledge amongst the Expat community for quite sometime but have read of the next paragraph.

And the final 'insult;' on the official Gov.UK website from which expats get a lot of info, as of the end of the transition period British passport holders living outside of the UK will need to apply for a visa to enter Britain. Those British citizens who decide the return to the UK to live after the end of the transition period will have to apply for the right to reside. Really? You've got to be 'kin joking.
		
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Not good mate, hopefully itâ€™s something that will change, thatâ€™s a disgrace.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! Anger doesn't even come close.

I live in Spain for, in the main, 2 reasons. The weather and the cost of living. My pension goes about 40% further out here, e.g. my annual council tax bill is less a year than what I paid a month in the UK. And our gas bill is about Â£6/mth. 25* and sunny today.

I watch English TV, I subscribe to several English papers, I watched the rugby yesterday. I am English, and I hold an British passport. I am eligible for an Irish passport but to apply for one would be for convenience only, and I'm English.

What happens post-Brexit; the state sponsored healthcare many expats rely on ends - we're lucky as we can afford and have private HC. Currently, pensioners see their pensions rise each year as per if they were living in the UK. That ends at the end of the transition period. Why? Brexit is about the UK leaving the EU, so why mess with people's pensions? That's been common knowledge amongst the Expat community for quite sometime but have read of the next paragraph.

And the final 'insult;' on the official Gov.UK website from which expats get a lot of info, as of the end of the transition period British passport holders living outside of the UK will need to apply for a visa to enter Britain. Those British citizens who decide the return to the UK to live after the end of the transition period will have to apply for the right to reside. Really? You've got to be 'kin joking.
		
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Is there an opportunity to have a property in the uk and maintain a connection


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! Anger doesn't even come close.

I live in Spain for, in the main, 2 reasons. The weather and the cost of living. My pension goes about 40% further out here, e.g. my annual council tax bill is less a year than what I paid a month in the UK. And our gas bill is about Â£6/mth. 25* and sunny today.

I watch English TV, I subscribe to several English papers, I watched the rugby yesterday. I am English, and I hold an British passport. I am eligible for an Irish passport but to apply for one would be for convenience only, and I'm English.

What happens post-Brexit; the state sponsored healthcare many expats rely on ends - we're lucky as we can afford and have private HC. Currently, pensioners see their pensions rise each year as per if they were living in the UK. That ends at the end of the transition period. Why? Brexit is about the UK leaving the EU, so why mess with people's pensions? That's been common knowledge amongst the Expat community for quite sometime but have read of the next paragraph.

And the final 'insult;' on the official Gov.UK website from which expats get a lot of info, as of the end of the transition period British passport holders living outside of the UK will need to apply for a visa to enter Britain. Those British citizens who decide the return to the UK to live after the end of the transition period will have to apply for the right to reside. Really? You've got to be 'kin joking.
		
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Please explain the difference between being a financial immigrant and an 'expat'.


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not good mate, hopefully itâ€™s something that will change, thatâ€™s a disgrace.

Click to expand...

The healthcare thing I sort of accept as its part of the EU reciprocal agreements. But disappointing as both Spain and Portugal offered, back in Jan, to continue with healthcare provision if the UK reciprocated - we'll see.

Pensions; why? Quite a number of expats still pay tax in the UK but get nothing, me included.

As for needing a visa to return to the country of my birth, even though I hold UK citizenship. Really!? Which dumbass thought that one up?


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## drdel (Oct 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! Anger doesn't even come close.

I live in Spain for, in the main, 2 reasons. The weather and the cost of living. My pension goes about 40% further out here, e.g. my annual council tax bill is less a year than what I paid a month in the UK. And our gas bill is about Â£6/mth. 25* and sunny today.

I watch English TV, I subscribe to several English papers, I watched the rugby yesterday. I am English, and I hold an British passport. I am eligible for an Irish passport but to apply for one would be for convenience only, and I'm English.

What happens post-Brexit; the state sponsored healthcare many expats rely on ends - we're lucky as we can afford and have private HC. Currently, pensioners see their pensions rise each year as per if they were living in the UK. That ends at the end of the transition period. Why? Brexit is about the UK leaving the EU, so why mess with people's pensions? That's been common knowledge amongst the Expat community for quite sometime but have read of the next paragraph.

And the final 'insult;' on the official Gov.UK website from which expats get a lot of info, as of the end of the transition period British passport holders living outside of the UK will need to apply for a visa to enter Britain. Those British citizens who decide the return to the UK to live after the end of the transition period will have to apply for the right to reside. Really? You've got to be 'kin joking.
		
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To be brutal its about the same as living and taking up residency in the US, Aussie, Canada, NZ etc.


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## Mudball (Oct 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another  benefit of being in the EU,  child care at slave labour rates and much of it for armchair socialists.  Suit you Sir.
		
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I seriously have no idea what this means or implies ..


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I seriously have no idea what this means or implies ..
		
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He is having a go about the child minder charging Â£4/hr thinking that minimum wage is being broken.
What he doesnâ€™t understand is a child minder can look after up to 5 children (might be 1 more). So she runs it like a business at Â£20/hr ...


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Is there an opportunity to have a property in the uk and maintain a connection
		
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Quite a number of expats do so, so that they can access the NHS. Some of those use their children's address to do so. They are 'flying under the radar' in Spain, and not registered as residents. That way they avoid tax in Spain and some taxes in the UK.


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## Mudball (Oct 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! Anger doesn't even come close.

I live in Spain for, in the main, 2 reasons. The weather and the cost of living. My pension goes about 40% further out here, e.g. my annual council tax bill is less a year than what I paid a month in the UK. And our gas bill is about Â£6/mth. 25* and sunny today.

I watch English TV, I subscribe to several English papers, I watched the rugby yesterday. I am English, and I hold an British passport. I am eligible for an Irish passport but to apply for one would be for convenience only, and I'm English.

What happens post-Brexit; the state sponsored healthcare many expats rely on ends - we're lucky as we can afford and have private HC. Currently, pensioners see their pensions rise each year as per if they were living in the UK. That ends at the end of the transition period. Why? Brexit is about the UK leaving the EU, so why mess with people's pensions? That's been common knowledge amongst the Expat community for quite sometime but have read of the next paragraph.

And the final 'insult;' on the official Gov.UK website from which expats get a lot of info, as of the end of the transition period British passport holders living outside of the UK will need to apply for a visa to enter Britain. Those British citizens who decide the return to the UK to live after the end of the transition period will have to apply for the right to reside. Really? You've got to be 'kin joking.
		
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(Rhetorically stmt so ignore) so does it mean that you have â€˜not integratedâ€™ with the local community and are living in a ghetto and sponging off the state. That seems to be a characteristisation of such immigrate behaviour by some members on the forum.  
BTW from your post it looks like you have a UK passport. So I am not sure which knucklehead came up with the idea that you need a permit to enter the UK. You may need a permit/visa to return to Spain after the UK trip. Generally your permit may allow you to stay for short or long duration as per Schengen (or equivalent) rules. Finally I not sure property ownership under current Schengen rules so I am assuming that they will have to come up with some other alternative arrangements to ensure you can continue to keep property in Europe.


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## Mudball (Oct 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			He is having a go about the child minder charging Â£4/hr thinking that minimum wage is being broken.
What he doesnâ€™t understand is a child minder can look after up to 5 children (might be 1 more). So she runs it like a business at Â£20/hr ...
		
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Oh so normal â€˜twaddleâ€™ services have resumed ...


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			To be brutal its about the same as living and taking up residency in the US, Aussie, Canada, NZ etc.
		
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Those people that went there knew before they went what their living circumstances would be. Many expats calculated their decision to move based on affordability. Being hit with a â‚¬2,000 a year private healthcare bill will mean a number of them are selling up and returning to the UK. Those that decide to stay are losing a significant percentage of their pension.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Another  benefit of being in the EU,  child care at slave labour rates and much of it for armchair socialists.  Suit you Sir.
		
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Eh ?! We pay just under Â£1000 a month for 4 days a week - thatâ€™s far from child care at slave labour rates


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The healthcare thing I sort of accept as its part of the EU reciprocal agreements. But disappointing as both Spain and Portugal offered, back in Jan, to continue with healthcare provision if the UK reciprocated - we'll see.

Pensions; why? Quite a number of expats still pay tax in the UK but get nothing, me included.

As for needing a visa to return to the country of my birth, even though I hold UK citizenship. Really!? Which dumbass thought that one up?
		
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Brian, could Spain and Portugal actually offer that? I thought that it had to be all the 27 or none? Not looking to upset you mate, I share a lot of your anger in those arrangements as it wasnâ€™t what I was looking for, just not sure that can actually do it?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Eh ?! We pay just under Â£1000 a month for 4 days a week - thatâ€™s far from child care at slave labour rates
		
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I believe he is refering to au pairs who are paid much lower however they get free meals and board which people forget is worth a lot

Plus it helps them learn the culture etc. It's not a one way street


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Quite a number of expats do so, so that they can access the NHS. Some of those use their children's address to do so. They are 'flying under the radar' in Spain, and not registered as residents. That way they avoid tax in Spain and some taxes in the UK.
		
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I suppose it explains why some come back for 8-10 weeks a year


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2019)

Mudball said:



			(Rhetorically stmt so ignore) so does it mean that you have â€˜not integratedâ€™ with the local community and are living in a ghetto and sponging off the state. That seems to be a characteristisation of such immigrate behaviour by some members on the forum. 
BTW from your post it looks like you have a UK passport. So I am not sure which knucklehead came up with the idea that you need a permit to enter the UK. You may need a permit/visa to return to Spain after the UK trip. Generally your permit may allow you to stay for short or long duration as per Schengen (or equivalent) rules. Finally I not sure property ownership under current Schengen rules so I am assuming that they will have to come up with some other alternative arrangements to ensure you can continue to keep property in Europe.
		
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We deliberately chose a Spanish village, away from the local tourist spot. We attend Spanish classes. We use the Spanish bars and, deliberately, attempt to use our Spanish even though they speak good English. Throughout the year we go on the pensionistas day trips and weekends away - 95% Spanish. Everywhere we go we use Spanish, falling back on Spanglish when we struggle.

There are 'Brits abroad' that I cringe when I see hear. We're not in that group.

As for sponging off the state; not sure how that correlates to an expat living abroad. Firstly, to qualify for a full UK pension an individual needs to have 35(?) years NI stamps paid. Once those stamps are in, whats the problem? Don't forget, those entitled to a UK pension whilst abroad are not a burden on the NHS. We retired early and won't draw a UK pension for another 7 years but we still pay UK taxes, because of the type of pension I have, and pay Spanish taxes.

Owning a property as a non-resident isn't a problem and won't be post-Brexit. There are restrictions on the length of time anyone can stay in the country, 90 days then 180 days outside the country then 90 days back. For those with Residencia, us, you can stay as long as you want. Getting back into Spain, post-Brexit, won't be a problem. We just show our Residencia card - right to reside.

Don't confuse Residencia with citizenship. To gain citizenship you have to have been a permamente residencia for 5 years, which is 10 years after gaining residencia, and be able to speak Spanish fluently. You also have to pass a test which includes history and culture. And you have to give up your British passport. Spain does not allow dual nationality.


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I suppose it explains why some come back for 8-10 weeks a year
		
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Some do it to avoid July and August. Temps here in southern Spain can hit the 50*s in the sun. I played golf last Aug, and got through 3 litres of water in 16 holes. By the time I walked off the 18th I'd stopped sweating and felt quite ill. "Mad dogs and Englishmen..."


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Some do it to avoid July and August. Temps here in southern Spain can hit the 50*s in the sun. I played golf last Aug, and got through 3 litres of water in 16 holes. By the time I walked off the 18th I'd stopped sweating and felt quite ill. "Mad dogs and Englishmen..."
		
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I know that feeling, did it in Malaysia.. thought it was millionaires golf .. but I was the twit


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Eh ?! We pay just under Â£1000 a month for 4 days a week - thatâ€™s far from child care at slave labour rates
		
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Not you, I'm refering to people that employ foreign nannies or Au - Pairs. Well off  people who extol their Socialist beliefs while paying foreign employees as little as possible.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			*yawn*
When you going sort out this round ?
		
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I gave you an invitation so PM me when you want to kick my ass.


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Could it be because, we were told that the old wanted to leave (while the non-voting young wanted to Remain).   So maybe the old have now died and so the majority now wants to stay.   Wasnt there another stat that about 500k  old people have died since Brexshit Ref, and so the vote has swung.  Or is this more MSM propaganda ?

Edit:  Found the link >> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-yougov-second-referendum-peter-a8541971.html
and https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/19/britain-turns-remain-today-elderly-leavers-die-survey-claims-8363505/

Click to expand...

That argument simply doesn't hold water! For a start, it ignores the 'middle-aged' who have now become 'old' and therefore favour Brexit more. In reality, the 'snapshot' of the UK electorate age profile hasn't changed significantly!


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Not you, I'm refering to people that employ foreign nannies or Au - Pairs. Well off  people who extol their Socialist beliefs while paying foreign employees as little as possible.
		
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Do you know of any of that description in your area? I'm pretty certain the number is close to zero! Certainly in my area, a fairly wealthy one where Nannies or equivalents  are quite common, pay their staff quite well!
In fact, I'm inclined to think you are clutching at straws and have zero knowledge of any of the above! But...


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## Hobbit (Oct 27, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Brian, could Spain and Portugal actually offer that? I thought that it had to be all the 27 or none? Not looking to upset you mate, I share a lot of your anger in those arrangements as it wasnâ€™t what I was looking for, just not sure that can actually do it?
		
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There is a difference between Freedom of Movement and the local laws on who can access what services in the host country. For example, Portugal offer several years tax free status for anyone moving there. Sounds great but around the time we were considering moving Portugal were contemplating a 10% money grab on anything over â‚¬20,000 in a bank account as part of their get out from the recession.

The EU had some serious things to say about Spain and Portugal's offer. Not sure of Portugal's response but Spain told them to get stuffed. Its a national issue, and one for the national govt to decide. It could have caused issues within Spain due to 3rd country individuals from elsewhere getting different treatment than UK(3rd country) nationals.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Do you know of any of that description in your area? I'm pretty certain the number is close to zero! Certainly in my area, a fairly wealthy one where Nannies or equivalents  are quite common, pay their staff quite well!
In fact, I'm inclined to think you are clutching at straws an have zero knowledge of any of the above! But...
		
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He asked his nanny!


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			He asked his nanny!
		
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Who, I presume, also trims (what's left of) his hair!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Do you know of any of that description in your area? I'm pretty certain the number is close to zero! Certainly in my area, a fairly wealthy one where Nannies or equivalents  are quite common, pay their staff quite well!
In fact, I'm inclined to think you are clutching at straws and have zero knowledge of any of the above! But...
		
Click to expand...

I have known a few  people who employed Au pairs and although they had accomodation and meals they were only paid a very small amount.
https://www.gov.uk/au-pairs-employment-law/au-pairs


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Who, I presume, also trims (what's left of) his hair! 

Click to expand...

Still got a bit but must admit it takes my barber a lot less time these days. Takes longer to keep the beard trimmed. ðŸ˜‚


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 27, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Who, I presume, also trims (what's left of) his hair! 

Click to expand...

Bowl cut?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Bowl cut?
		
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Fashionable these days. Or so I'm told


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 27, 2019)

8


SocketRocket said:



			Fashionable these days. Or so I'm told
		
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had a few of them myself in the past lol.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I have known a few  people who employed Au pairs and although they had accomodation and meals they were only paid a very small amount.
https://www.gov.uk/au-pairs-employment-law/au-pairs

Click to expand...

Cost of renting a room in your area? 

Round here your looking at 500-600 per month 

They pay no bills like council tax, broadband , water , gas , electric 

Food provided (how much is that per month)

Then are give pocket money of 75-85 a week 

Seems a pretty sweet deal 

People who I know who did it provided them use of a car to ferry the kids about , again not paid for by the au pair but could use anytime 

Seems pretty fair


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## harpo_72 (Oct 27, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Cost of renting a room in your area?

Round here your looking at 500-600 per month

They pay no bills like council tax, broadband , water , gas , electric

Food provided (how much is that per month)

Then are give pocket money of 75-85 a week

Seems a pretty sweet deal

People who I know who did it provided them use of a car to ferry the kids about , again not paid for by the au pair but could use anytime

Seems pretty fair
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s spot on!


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## Mudball (Oct 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Do you know of any of that description in your area? I'm pretty certain the number is close to zero! Certainly in my area, a fairly wealthy one where Nannies or equivalents  are quite common, pay their staff quite well!
In fact, I'm inclined to think you are clutching at straws and have zero knowledge of any of the above! But...
		
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how much does Rees-Moggs Nanny make.. my assumption is that that JRM only employees British born and British raised, corn fed and Latin speaking nannies only.


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Still got a bit but must admit it takes my barber a lot less time these days. Takes longer to keep the beard trimmed. ðŸ˜‚
		
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Not much time to talk - and get REAL news then!


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I have known a few  people who employed Au pairs and although they had accomodation and meals they were only paid a very small amount.
https://www.gov.uk/au-pairs-employment-law/au-pairs

Click to expand...

So, no doubt, those folk will be happy that their source of 'slave labour' is removed! I'd suggest it's only you that deems them 'armchair Socialists' btw!


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## robinthehood (Oct 28, 2019)

EU agrees to extension. 
New deadline 31st Jan.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 28, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			EU agrees to extension.
New deadline 31st Jan.
		
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Utter scum. No surprise. they had to grant this as they can see the pound signs within their grasp. Scumbags in Parliament vote BJ crap deal through and they now have been given the time and no election is needed.


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## robinthehood (Oct 28, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Utter scum. No surprise. they had to grant this as they can see the pound signs within their grasp. Scumbags in Parliament vote BJ crap deal through and they now have been given the time and no election is needed.
		
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?
Odd response,  I thought you were leaving the country.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 28, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			?
Odd response,  I thought you were leaving the country.
		
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Checking flights now. Algarve is promising.


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## robinthehood (Oct 28, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Checking flights now. Algarve is promising.
		
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Best do it before brexit ðŸ˜‰


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## Imurg (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Cost of renting a room in your area?

Round here your looking at 500-600 per month

They pay no bills like council tax, broadband , water , gas , electric

Food provided (how much is that per month)

Then are give pocket money of 75-85 a week

Seems a pretty sweet deal

People who I know who did it provided them use of a car to ferry the kids about , again not paid for by the au pair but could use anytime

Seems pretty fair
		
Click to expand...

I have a regular client not far from here. Every time they change their Au Pair/Nanny they call me to take the new one out to assess their driving as they will be taxiing the kids to and from school.
From what they tell me thinks the kind of deal they're on.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

Imurg said:



			I have a regular client not far from here. Every time they change their Au Pair/Nanny they call me to take the new one out to assess their driving as they will be taxiing the kids to and from school.
From what they tell me thinks the kind of deal they're on.
		
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If you add up their pocket money 
Car use
Food 
And free board

Round here you could call it Â£1000 pcm

That's with no tax paid so to get that after tax prob looking Â£1200 pcm.. 30 hours of childcare a week 

Roughly Â£10 an hour 

That's not that bad! For someone their normal age .. and the experience they get


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## woody69 (Oct 28, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Best do it before brexit ðŸ˜‰
		
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"Headline: Man who hates EU moving to European country in the EU" lolz


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## woody69 (Oct 28, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Utter scum. No surprise. they had to grant this as they can see the pound signs within their grasp. Scumbags in Parliament vote BJ crap deal through and they now have been given the time and no election is needed.
		
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Why are they scum?


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## drdel (Oct 28, 2019)

In the next EU budget round it looks as if Germany will need to almost double it contribution due to Brussels hike in spending and the UK's exit.


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			In the next EU budget round it looks as if Germany will need to almost double it contribution due to Brussels hike in spending and the UK's exit.
		
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A piece in the FT from Oct 17th, in which a earlier pieces are lumped in. For example, Germany's earlier request to retain its rebate, and also to limit a countries spending to 1% of GNI.

https://www.ft.com/content/8b6d137a-f0b6-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195


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## Mudball (Oct 28, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			EU agrees to extension.
New deadline 31st Jan.
		
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Which year?


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## robinthehood (Oct 28, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Which year?
		
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ðŸ˜‚ well they did say it was flexible


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2019)

What the Â£100m for the Get Ready for Brexit ads could have paid for:

3000 teachers
4000 nurses
4200 police officers
Tackling rough sleeping that led to 726 deaths last year


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## Mudball (Oct 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What the Â£100m for the Get Ready for Brexit ads could have paid for:

3000 teachers
4000 nurses
4200 police officers
Tackling rough sleeping that led to 726 deaths last year
		
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Mere pointless stats..  Remember these will keep about 1000 Europeans out..  that is apparently more important.


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What the Â£100m for the Get Ready for Brexit ads could have paid for:

3000 teachers
4000 nurses
4200 police officers
Tackling rough sleeping that led to 726 deaths last year
		
Click to expand...

Alternatively, don't prepare and then see even more chaos.

I get what you're saying Paul but if Brexit is to happen wouldn't you rather the prep was done?

Edit; just to add, Trident lifetime costs are Â£205bn. How many of the above if Trident wasn't replaced.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Mere pointless stats..  Remember these will keep about 1000 Europeans out..  that is apparently more important.
		
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Who would prob come here, work hard and pay taxes into the system 

Oh the shame of it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Alternatively, don't prepare and then see even more chaos.

I get what you're saying Paul but if Brexit is to happen wouldn't you rather the prep was done?
		
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Iâ€™ve said all along, stop and be realistic, add in the cost of cancelled contracts for not leaving on 31st Oct etc and itâ€™s getting worse, egoâ€™s (on all sides) need to be put in a draw.


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## robinthehood (Oct 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve said all along, stop and be realistic, add in the cost of cancelled contracts for not leaving on 31st Oct etc and itâ€™s getting worse, egoâ€™s (on all sides) need to be put in a draw.
		
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Exactly,  if we are leaving then do it properly and do it well.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Exactly,  if we are leaving then do it properly and do it well.
		
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When does the new tax law come in for declaring earnings? Is it January? Be interesting to see the chief brexitor MPs faces when their hidden wealth they don't pay tax on is revealed 

Maybe will wipe that smug grin off Jacob Reece moggs face


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 28, 2019)

Another problem is that all EU member countries MUST adopt to Euro by 2020.  I hope there's no one on here with loads of dosh stashed away. As the banks convert your money and you lose out.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Another problem is that all EU member countries MUST adopt to Euro by 2020.  I hope there's no one on here with loads of dosh stashed away. As the banks convert your money and you lose out.
		
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Where is this in fact please? Every source say it's not the case

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47523168


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			When does the new tax law come in for declaring earnings? Is it January? Be interesting to see the chief brexitor MPs faces when their hidden wealth they don't pay tax on is revealed

Maybe will wipe that smug grin off Jacob Reece moggs face
		
Click to expand...

Knock yourself out with the list below. The list has a some omissions, e.g. Corbyn's payments from Iran TV aren't listed even though he admitted receiving them. Mogg declares his monthly take from the investment company. Be interesting to know what the share dividend he receives is worth.

https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords...ests/register-of-members-financial-interests/


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			When does the new tax law come in for declaring earnings? Is it January? Be interesting to see the chief brexitor MPs faces when their hidden wealth they don't pay tax on is revealed

Maybe will wipe that smug grin off Jacob Reece moggs face
		
Click to expand...

I'm pretty certain JR-M will be squeeky clean! But likely to be utilising several, totally legitimate, ways to minimise their tax requirement. Btw. New law? The 'Requirement to Correct' legislation merely specifies/regulates the procedures & sanctions if existing, long-standing law is not complied with!


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Knock yourself out with the list below. The list has a some omissions, e.g. Corbyn's payments from Iran TV aren't listed even though he admitted receiving them. Mogg declares his monthly take from the investment company. Be interesting to know what the share dividend he receives is worth.

https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords...ests/register-of-members-financial-interests/

Click to expand...

The investment company he has been feeding with inside information to Brexit for ages making millions whilst the economy stalls a bit 

What a guy


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Where is this in fact please? Every source say it's not the case

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47523168

Click to expand...

See also Point 3 on a list of misconceptions/misunderstandings/misinformations on the Lisbon Treaty

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/


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## robinthehood (Oct 28, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Another problem is that all EU member countries MUST adopt to Euro by 2020.  I hope there's no one on here with loads of dosh stashed away. As the banks convert your money and you lose out.
		
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Total bullshit


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			The investment company he has been feeding with inside information to Brexit for ages making millions whilst the economy stalls a bit 

What a guy
		
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Insider trading is a fairly serious accusation. I'm assuming that you have evidence of him doing it rather than just posting libellous statements on a public forum.


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you provide a link to show that â€œALLâ€ EU countries â€œMUSTâ€ adopt the Euro by 2020 ?

There was me thinking We were free to continue using the pound
		
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Completely wrong Phil.

The UK will exit the EU on the 30th Feb and adopt the Euro on the 32nd March..


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## spongebob59 (Oct 28, 2019)

In summary, then: We have a govt which has broken its central promise; an opposition which does not want an election to make them pay for it; two anti Brexit parties offering to break the deadlock in a way that could enable Brexit; & an EU which cannot do anything about any of it


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## spongebob59 (Oct 28, 2019)

people vote campaign has now turned into a complete shambles too now 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50206253


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## robinthehood (Oct 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Insider trading is a fairly serious accusation. I'm assuming that you have evidence of him doing it rather than just posting libellous statements on a public forum.
		
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So unlike the forum to overeact ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Hitdaball (Oct 28, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			So unlike the forum to overeact ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Only utter scum would be potentially libellous like this ðŸ˜†


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## Pro Zach (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			When does the new tax law come in for declaring earnings? Is it January? Be interesting to see the chief brexitor MPs faces when their hidden wealth they don't pay tax on is revealed

Maybe will wipe that smug grin off Jacob Reece moggs face
		
Click to expand...

Or perhaps you have no idea what you are talking about and are simply repeating some nonsense that you heard and blindly believed without question.

What law are you referring to and in what way would it produce the result you suggest?


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## Mudball (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Where is this in fact please? Every source say it's not the case

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47523168

Click to expand...

can i request you to take a day off.. you are correcting others perceptions with facts. You are spooking the horses ... Keep Calm and get Brexit done..


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## patricks148 (Oct 28, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			Or perhaps you have no idea what you are talking about and are simply repeating some nonsense that you heard and blindly believed without question.

What law are you referring to and in what way would it produce the result you suggest?
		
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a new law the EU are bringing in 2020 to investgate offshore tax avoidance and overseas sorting away of earning to put it in simple terms... the real reason for Brexit


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## drdel (Oct 28, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			In summary, then: We have a govt which has broken its central promise; an opposition which does not want an election to make them pay for it; two anti Brexit parties offering to break the deadlock in a way that could enable Brexit; & an EU which cannot do anything about any of it
		
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Did the Government break its promise or did Parliament prevent them fulfilling it?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Did the Government break its promise or did Parliament prevent them fulfilling it?
		
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Depends if you want to try and ignore the fact that Bojos promises about 'do or die' and being 'dead in ditches' if we are not out were just BS purely for election purposes. 

He's said BS before, he'll say it again, some people will fall for it as Gordon Brown sold the gold off at tuppence ha'peny or something like that. Others won't. 

Moral of the story to me is don't make promises you can't fulfil as people tend not to believe you after a while.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			Or perhaps you have no idea what you are talking about and are simply repeating some nonsense that you heard and blindly believed without question.

What law are you referring to and in what way would it produce the result you suggest?
		
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...eu-tax-avoidance-legislation-looms/03/09/amp/


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			a new law the EU are bringing in 2020 to investgate offshore tax avoidance and overseas sorting away of earning to put it in simple terms... the real reason for Brexit

Click to expand...

Sorry didn't realise someone had already anseered the question before I posted

Even the past few hours sum up brexit entirely 

Someone reads something online from a source they trust.. which rightly so the person who said about the euro got it from an MP tweet maybe and these people are our government you trust them right? Then once that is in someone's head it's so hard to get out even with facts 

False news does so much damage it's unreal

Both sides of the campaign lied 

The bus was disgraceful but I bet there are a few million out there who still believe it


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			When does the new tax law come in for declaring earnings? Is it January? Be interesting to see the chief brexitor MPs faces when their hidden wealth they don't pay tax on is revealed

Maybe will wipe that smug grin off Jacob Reece moggs face
		
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Oh dear, I had forgotten about that, better get my affairs into order now.
Not noticed Moggy's smug grin for quite a while now, in fact when that vote came in the other day he looked like he had just soiled himself.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 28, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Total bullshit
		
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Not so sure about that, the naesayers were saying that in 2014. 
Must be true then.


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## Pro Zach (Oct 28, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			a new law the EU are bringing in 2020 to investgate offshore tax avoidance and overseas sorting away of earning to put it in simple terms... the real reason for Brexit

Click to expand...

17.4 million people voted leave because they believed, without evidence, a new law was coming in to investigate offshore tax avoidance?

Got ya â€“ it all makes perfect sense now.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			17.4 million people voted leave because they believed, without evidence, a new law was coming in to investigate offshore tax avoidance?

Got ya â€“ it all makes perfect sense now.
		
Click to expand...

Or you could look at it correctly and notice the driving forces behind brexit like Jacob ree mogg etc are euro sceptic because they are set to have to declare their earnings and pay tax.. costing them money 

Simple really.


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## patricks148 (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Or you could look at it correctly and notice the driving forces behind brexit like Jacob ree mogg etc are euro sceptic because they are set to have to declare their earnings and pay tax.. costing them money

Simple really.
		
Click to expand...

not forgetting the person behind UKIP and The Brexit Party


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Or you could look at it correctly and notice the driving forces behind brexit like Jacob ree mogg etc are euro sceptic because they are set to have to declare their earnings and pay tax.. costing them money 

Simple really.
		
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Don't forget David Ike's Lizard people, they made us vote for Brexit but seem to have got away with it, bet they have some nice warm offshore rocks to bask on.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Or you could look at it correctly and notice the driving forces behind brexit like Jacob ree mogg etc are euro sceptic because they are set to have to declare their earnings and pay tax.. costing them money 

Simple really.
		
Click to expand...

Heâ€™s told you that personally; or just a wild guess that suits your agenda?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 28, 2019)

Throughout this debate I have seen frequent references to Leave voters not knowing what form of Leave they were voting for and this may well be true. 

However,  what I have not seen is a corresponding lack of certainty over Remain voters. 

Some may well have been voting for the then status quo. 

Others may have wanted to remain within the EU as a trading bloc but with a  changed relationship as initially pursued by Cameron. 

Finally there would undoubtedly have been  some who were not only happy to  Remain but were also willing to accept the increased federalism proposed by some in Europe. 

I know which was my preference but I very much doubt that  all my fellow Remain voters had thought it through any more than their Leave counterparts and yet it appears to be only the latter group whose motives have been questioned.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Throughout this debate I have seen frequent references to Leave voters not knowing what form of Leave they were voting for and this may well be true. 

However,  what I have not seen is a corresponding lack of certainty over Remain voters. 

Some may well have been voting for the then status quo. 

Others may have wanted to remain within the EU as a trading bloc but with a  changed relationship as initially pursued by Cameron. 

Finally there would undoubtedly have been  some who were not only happy to  Remain but were also willing to accept the increased federalism proposed by some in Europe. 

I know which was my preference but I very much doubt that  all my fellow Remain voters had thought it through any more than their Leave counterparts and yet it appears to be only the latter group whose motives have been questioned.
		
Click to expand...

Can I nominate this for the most honest post in this thread?


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## IanM (Oct 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can I nominate this for the most honest post in this thread?
		
Click to expand...

Agreed....   voters on both sides had variety of views, priorities and motivations.   I always think that folk are on dodgy ground telling someone else what they believe.


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Throughout this debate I have seen frequent references to Leave voters not knowing what form of Leave they were voting for and this may well be true.

However,  what I have not seen is a corresponding lack of certainty over Remain voters.

Some may well have been voting for the then status quo.

Others may have wanted to remain within the EU as a trading bloc but with a  changed relationship as initially pursued by Cameron.

Finally there would undoubtedly have been  some who were not only happy to  Remain but were also willing to accept the increased federalism proposed by some in Europe.

I know which was my preference but I very much doubt that  all my fellow Remain voters had thought it through any more than their Leave counterparts and yet it appears to be only the latter group whose motives have been questioned.
		
Click to expand...

Could I take it a step further. I'd suggest that the vast majority of those saying Leave voters don't know what version of Leave they wanted has actually been Remain voters. And that the vast majority of those asking the questions have done so to discredit or in some way split the Leave vote.

Of the Leave voters I've asked, each one has had their version of Leave, just as Remainers have had their version of Remain.

Just as some have suggested a second vote with the options being Leave with a deal, Leave with No Deal or Remain, perhaps the Remain vote should also be split into those who want the status quo, those that wanted a return to a trading bloc(me) or those that want even greater integration.

Sounds very fair to me.


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## IanM (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Or you could look at it correctly and notice the driving forces behind brexit like Jacob ree mogg etc are euro sceptic because they are set to have to declare their earnings and pay tax.. costing them money

Simple really.
		
Click to expand...

It is simple..  he believes that the Government of this country should be in this country.  I know that is weird to Federalists, but it is true!


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Could I take it a step further. I'd suggest that the vast majority of those saying Leave voters don't know what version of Leave they wanted has actually been Remain voters. And that the vast majority of those asking the questions have done so to discredit or in some way split the Leave vote.

Of the Leave voters I've asked, each one has had their version of Leave, just as Remainers have had their version of Remain.

Just as some have suggested a second vote with the options being Leave with a deal, Leave with No Deal or Remain, perhaps the Remain vote should also be split into those who want the status quo, those that wanted a return to a trading bloc(me) or those that want even greater integration.

Sounds very fair to me.
		
Click to expand...

Bugger; another nominee for most honest post. Weâ€™ll have to have a referendum to decide the winner... ðŸ¤”


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Throughout this debate I have seen frequent references to Leave voters not knowing what form of Leave they were voting for and this may well be true.

However,  what I have not seen is a corresponding lack of certainty over Remain voters.

Some may well have been voting for the then status quo.

Others may have wanted to remain within the EU as a trading bloc but with a  changed relationship as initially pursued by Cameron.

Finally there would undoubtedly have been  some who were not only happy to  Remain but were also willing to accept the increased federalism proposed by some in Europe.

I know which was my preference but I very much doubt that  all my fellow Remain voters had thought it through any more than their Leave counterparts and yet it appears to be only the latter group whose motives have been questioned.
		
Click to expand...

I get your point, but itâ€™s irrelevant and I donâ€™t mean that disrespectfully, no part of the Remain Campaign was really based on what our future relationship would look like, if anything it was the scaremongering of the Leave Campaign that paid more attention to that element, the basic message from the Remain side was we were better of staying regardless.
I would imagine if in 20-30 years there was a Referendum to rejoin, the focus would be more about what sort of relationship we would want and the majority of opposition would be simply focussed on staying out regardless.

If weâ€™d voted to remain we may of seen the rise of an Anti-european Party that produced a full agenda rather than having a single focus and the main Parties may of seen the odd fuss in Parliament above EU legislation.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 28, 2019)

IanM said:



			It is simple..  he believes that the Government of this country should be in this country.  I know that is weird to Federalists, but it is true!
		
Click to expand...

In this country with offshore banking and tax avoiding schemes and you have nailed it.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I get your point, but itâ€™s irrelevant and I donâ€™t mean that disrespectfully, no part of the Remain Campaign was really based on what our future relationship would look like, if anything it was the scaremongering of the Leave Campaign that paid more attention to that element, the basic message from the Remain side was we were better of staying regardless.
I would imagine if in 20-30 years there was a Referendum to rejoin, the focus would be more about what sort of relationship we would want and the majority of opposition would be simply focussed on staying out regardless.

If weâ€™d voted to remain we may of seen the rise of an Anti-european Party that produced a full agenda rather than having a single focus and the main Parties may of seen the odd fuss in Parliament above EU legislation.
		
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Not certain that it's irrelevant. 

After all should there be some form of second public consultation, referendum or GE surely we need to at least attempt to ensure that whichever way people choose to vote they are more certain of their motives.


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## drdel (Oct 28, 2019)

I can tell you why I voted to leave...

The EU has always seen the UK as a rogue, unhappy member and thus we've never been at the 'centre' within the Brussels cliche. As a consequence they are happily pursuing their dream and expected and put up with the UK moaning just to keep the cash rolling in.

The UK always sought to fully implement EU requirements even though, other members (our competitors) rarely bother, leading in workers rights and environmental implementation.

As 'enlargement' has primarily brought in the Eastern nations massive cash flows have gone east: this has been funded by massive and unsustainable debt based on non-existent growth. Brussels has plans to charge members more for 'central' growth and the UK would be expected to increase contributions disproportionately.

The UK 'concessions' will come under more and more pressure (see Germany) as the 'taker members' debt can't be met.

World trade/growth is ignoring Europe which means investments will follow and the UK would be disadvantaged.

The EU is too slow to react and lacks agility in the modern world.

UK is expected to meet a large proportion of defence, intelligence and services because the EU 'thinks' the UK is rich.

I'll stop there, but could go on !!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Not certain that it's irrelevant.

After all should there be some form of second public consultation, referendum or GE surely we need to at least attempt to ensure that whichever way people choose to vote they are more certain of their motives.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely, it wouldnâ€™t be irrelevant if we had (hopefully not for me) a second referendum.
But as we are not at that stage those consultations are not required.


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## IanM (Oct 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Bugger; another nominee for most honest post. Weâ€™ll have to have a referendum to decide the winner... ðŸ¤”
		
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Silly Billy....that will split the Remain vote and ooooooooooooooooooooooops!


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## IanM (Oct 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In this country with offshore banking and tax avoiding schemes and you have nailed it.

Click to expand...

Yes.  No lover of free trade are you?  Avoidance of tax is illegal.   As you know.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			I can tell you why I voted to leave...

The EU has always seen the UK as a rogue, unhappy member and thus we've never been at the 'centre' within the Brussels cliche. As a consequence they are happily pursuing their dream and expected and put up with the UK moaning just to keep the cash rolling in.

The UK always sought to fully implement EU requirements even though, other members (our competitors) rarely bother, leading in workers rights and environmental implementation.

As 'enlargement' has primarily brought in the Eastern nations massive cash flows have gone east: this has been funded by massive and unsustainable debt based on non-existent growth. Brussels has plans to charge members more for 'central' growth and the UK would be expected to increase contributions disproportionately.

The UK 'concessions' will come under more and more pressure (see Germany) as the 'taker members' debt can't be met.

World trade/growth is ignoring Europe which means investments will follow and the UK would be disadvantaged.

The EU is too slow to react and lacks agility in the modern world.

UK is expected to meet a large proportion of defence, intelligence and services because the EU 'thinks' the UK is rich.

I'll stop there, but could go on !!!
		
Click to expand...

A lot of my main objections are neatly, and far more eruditely,  explained than I would have managed. 

I have no huge issue with a trading bloc, the EHIC card is something that shows the good of the system but the debt is my biggest concern. 

Those that voted leave are constantly being told theyâ€™ve stolen the future of the youth. By voting leave, Iâ€™ve actually damaged my present as the investments I do have are slumping, but Iâ€™ve done so because I believe, rightly or wrongly, it is in the best long term interests of the country and of the younger generation who will be saddled with this debt long after Iâ€™ve gone.  The insults from some Remain voters who have no idea why I voted the way I did but choose to put their own slant on it as being the greed of the older generation is inexcusable given my circumstances.


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## Pro Zach (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Or you could look at it correctly and notice the driving forces behind brexit like Jacob ree mogg etc are euro sceptic because they are set to have to declare their earnings and pay tax.. costing them money

Simple really.
		
Click to expand...

This is not looking at it correctly. It is not rational.

Premise 1:   there is an EU law coming in.

Premise 2:   this law will cost JRM  money.

Conclusion:   JRM wants to leave the EU because of this.

Is premise 1 true? Do you have evidence for it? Have you read it? If it is true does it make premise 2 true? Can you show that this law will actually cost JRM money?

If both are true, is the conclusion true? The answer is no.

Even if we could prove JRM will save money because of Brexit this still wouldnâ€™t show that is why he wants to leave. It would remain one possibility out of many other possibilities.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Not certain that it's irrelevant. 

After all should there be some form of second public consultation, referendum or GE surely we need to at least attempt to ensure that whichever way people choose to vote they are more certain of their motives.
		
Click to expand...

My opinion is that there is too much emphasise on why people voted the way they did and what may have influenced their decision. When we vote in any National Poll their will always be campaigns from the interested parties to influence our voting decisions, these will include positive and negative spin and claims that are questionable in their honesty.  It is up to the individual to educate themselves and come to a decision, after the votes are counted it's no good people suggesting those that had a different view were wrong in their decision or even too stupid to be allowed a vote. Its never perfect but it's the best we have.
I do have concerns though, the new way of dragging decisions through the courts  to question political outcomes that are not in line with the will of some influential people is going to be fairly normal practice.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

Pro Zach said:



			This is not looking at it correctly. It is not rational.

Premise 1:   there is an EU law coming in.

Premise 2:   this law will cost JRM  money.

Conclusion:   JRM wants to leave the EU because of this.

Is premise 1 true? Do you have evidence for it? Have you read it? If it is true does it make premise 2 true? Can you show that this law will actually cost JRM money?

If both are true, is the conclusion true? The answer is no.

Even if we could prove JRM will save money because of Brexit this still wouldnâ€™t show that is why he wants to leave. It would remain one possibility out of many other possibilities.
		
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If you choose to believe the MPs hats off to you.

Only have to see boris',  video doing the rounds the other day saying how he loves the single market and would vote to stay in if there was a vote only to completely turn around in the leave campaign ..

Can't trust them, best to have them overseen by the EU before they do something bad


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## JamesR (Oct 28, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can I nominate this for the most honest post in this thread?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Richard but my post, in which I called 2 posters on this thread a naughty name (for which Fragger chastised me) was even more honest than MMâ€™s, even if only by a hair!


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## Slime (Oct 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Could I take it a step further. I'd suggest that the vast majority of those saying Leave voters don't know what version of Leave they wanted has actually been Remain voters. And that the vast majority of those asking the questions have done so to discredit or in some way split the Leave vote.
Of the Leave voters I've asked, each one has had their version of Leave, just as Remainers have had their version of Remain.
Just as *some have suggested a second vote with the options being Leave with a deal, Leave with No Deal or Remain*, perhaps the Remain vote should also be split into those who want the status quo, those that wanted a return to a trading bloc(me) or those that want even greater integration.
Sounds very fair to me.
		
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IanM said:



			Silly Billy....*that will split the Remain vote* and ooooooooooooooooooooooops!
		
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I have a plan that might possibly, just possibly, suit both sides of the debate ..................... bear with me on this.
Another referendum with three choices.
1. Remain in the EU ................ nothing changes.
2. Leave with a deal.
3. Leave with no deal.

Now, I know what you're thinking, but wait a minute.

The leave votes, options 2 & 3, are added together and, if they fail to achieve 50%, we stay as we are, option 1 wins.
If they do achieve at least 50% we then leave and they way we leave is purely according to which of options 2 & 3 received the most votes.

I can't help thinking though, if option 1 were to win, there would be a mahoosive amount of unrest and we'd probably be heading towards a best of three scenario!
Hopefully that wouldn't be the case. 
Where's a fingers crossed emoji when you really need one?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 28, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Throughout this debate I have seen frequent references to Leave voters not knowing what form of Leave they were voting for and this may well be true.

However,  what I have not seen is a corresponding lack of certainty over Remain voters.

Some may well have been voting for the then status quo.

Others may have wanted to remain within the EU as a trading bloc but with a  changed relationship as initially pursued by Cameron.

Finally there would undoubtedly have been  some who were not only happy to  Remain but were also willing to accept the increased federalism proposed by some in Europe.

I know which was my preference but I very much doubt that  all my fellow Remain voters had thought it through any more than their Leave counterparts and yet it appears to be only the latter group whose motives have been questioned.
		
Click to expand...

I think some of the comments have been post-request for a referendum on leaving.
I think those who are more aware would seek to address the perceived issues with Europe. In a way this 3 years has provided us with a lot of information and I also think the EU has seen that some of their future plans are not so popular.
I would also argue that we have not been very good participants of the EU .. we have not communicated well and nor have we made reasonable requests, with solutions. 
We have benefited hugely from our membership and the discussion about money going out is never offered with the money coming back in - because it makes it a redundant argument.
Would it split the remain vote, I don't think so, is there any point in voting on something that we cannot change because we missed the boat the first time ? Not really. The only thing I would want is we embrace our membership and become a leading voice not  a bunch of whinging cry babies being awkward when ever.

Take the Leave situation you were promised a load of stuff and yet have they delivered any of it ... I don't think so. 
Had they delivered Leave  would have persuaded the remainer factions not all but a good few,


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2019)

MetalMickie said:



			Throughout this debate I have seen frequent references to Leave voters not knowing what form of Leave they were voting for and this may well be true.

However,  what I have not seen is a corresponding lack of certainty over Remain voters.

Some may well have been voting for the then status quo.

Others may have wanted to remain within the EU as a trading bloc but with a  changed relationship as initially pursued by Cameron.

Finally there would undoubtedly have been  some who were not only happy to  Remain but were also willing to accept the increased federalism proposed by some in Europe.

I know which was my preference but I very much doubt that  all my fellow Remain voters had thought it through any more than their Leave counterparts and yet it appears to be only the latter group whose motives have been questioned.
		
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I can understand the point you are making and I think it was one of the issues of having such a binary vote of â€œin or outâ€ - the vote didnâ€™t state what sort of in or out people wanted because there are multiple variants - the â€œcampaignersâ€ etc made multiple promises but ultimately if we take what the vote stated it was an Out vote - thatâ€™s it . 

But I think the whole process was under estimated - why people voted one way or the other shouldnâ€™t really matter because it will be near on impossible to satisfy even every voter who voted leave - some wanted to stay connect in various ways , some wanted to have a deal , some wanted to leave totally with no deal but these were all option open to the government after the vote was cast but there was no mandate for which way they go in that â€œoutâ€ journey 

And when it comes to how people wanted to stay â€œinâ€ - do we have a choice ? If the vote ended up being to â€œstay in â€œ the UK government surely would just carry on and continue to develop the relationship with the EU ( and keep our special deal ) 

Either way this whole process has caused a lot of issues and problems through every level of society and in families and social circles with some of this issues very deep rooted now and beyond repair. Interesting and prob hard times ahead for many


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			My opinion is that there is too much emphasise on why people voted the way they did and what may have influenced their decision. When we vote in any National Poll their will always be campaigns from the interested parties to influence our voting decisions, these will include positive and negative spin and claims that are questionable in their honesty.  It is up to the individual to educate themselves and come to a decision, after the votes are counted it's no good people suggesting those that had a different view were wrong in their decision or even too stupid to be allowed a vote. Its never perfect but it's the best we have.
I do have concerns though, the new way of dragging decisions through the courts  to question political outcomes that are not in line with the will of some influential people is going to be fairly normal practice.
		
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You canâ€™t use that argument comparing the Referendum to other Elections, every other Election will have People associated with Parties who produce manifestoâ€™s and have a detailed current history.
The Referendum was unique in that it crossed Political Lines, it wasnâ€™t fought under normal circumstances and ultimately there wasnâ€™t an individual being held responsible for either side.
Yes I agree it is down to individuals to do their own research etc, but letâ€™s not pretend the Referendum Campaign was genuine from either side.
Then on the ballot paper was a very basic question to which the answer was anything but basic.


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## drdel (Oct 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think some of the comments have been post-request for a referendum on leaving.
I think those who are more aware would seek to address the perceived issues with Europe. In a way this 3 years has provided us with a lot of information and I also think the EU has seen that some of their future plans are not so popular.
I would also argue that we have not been very good participants of the EU .. we have not communicated well and nor have we made reasonable requests, with solutions.
We have benefited hugely from our membership and the discussion about money going out is never offered with the money coming back in - because it makes it a redundant argument.
Would it split the remain vote, I don't think so, is there any point in voting on something that we cannot change because we missed the boat the first time ? Not really. The only thing I would want is we embrace our membership and become a leading voice not  a bunch of whinging cry babies being awkward when ever.

Take the Leave situation you were promised a load of stuff and yet have they delivered any of it ... I don't think so.
Had they delivered Leave  would have persuaded the remainer factions not all but a good few,
		
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I think your opinions may not stand up to much research / scrutiny, especially your financial claim we've gained more that its cost - be careful to add the additional contributions the public sector and corporations (often 50%) have to make towards EU's so-called 'grants'.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188831701654482945
Bit of a long tweet 

But showing that brexit is paving the way for the NHS to be sold off to the US 

 Happy days


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Or you could look at it correctly and notice the driving forces behind brexit like Jacob ree mogg etc are euro sceptic because they are set to have to declare their earnings and pay tax.. costing them money

Simple really.
		
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Utter twaddle!
They've ALWAYS ben required o 'delare their earnings and pay tax'!


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Utter twaddle!
They've ALWAYS ben required o 'delare their earnings and pay tax'!
		
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...t-investment-firm-belgravia-a7902951.html?amp


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## drdel (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188831701654482945
Bit of a long tweet

But showing that brexit is paving the way for the NHS to be sold off to the US

Happy days
		
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Extrapolating beyond logic. There's a massive difference in a materials procurement issue and a takeover !!!


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## patricks148 (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188831701654482945
Bit of a long tweet

But showing that brexit is paving the way for the NHS to be sold off to the US

Happy days
		
Click to expand...

But Broris assured us its not for sale and isn't on the table to US buy outs...


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Extrapolating beyond logic. There's a massive difference in a materials procurement issue and a takeover !!!
		
Click to expand...

Slowly but surely will be sold off 

People say we can't trust the EU and are sceptical about them

Yet trust the conservatives to protect something they have wanted to rip apart for years? It costs them too much money 

Why pay to help others when one can have more money for ones self


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## pauljames87 (Oct 28, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			But Broris assured us its not for sale and isn't on the table to US buy outs...

Click to expand...

I thought he would rather be dead in a ditch than delay brexit past 31st Oct


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## patricks148 (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I thought he would rather be dead in a ditch than delay brexit past 31st Oct
		
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i assumed when he said in a ditch he meant his latest Mistress


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-conservative-mp-north-east-somerset-capital-management-investment-firm-belgravia-a7902951.html?amp

Click to expand...

Nothing in that story clashes with my previous post!
If you can prove otherwise, I'll happily donate a tenner to H4H! If, as I expect, you cannot, I suggest you do so!
Btw. It's npt because I'm a JR-M fan - as I'm decidedly not! I'm simply a fan of FACTS!
My understanding is that it's the 'interest' in the likes of SCM that hs to be declared, not the consequential dividend (as stated by JR-M) - as that can be derived by other means!
PS. Please excuse the 'keyboard malfunctions (missed letters)' in the previous post.


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can understand the point you are making and I think it was one of the issues of having such a binary vote of â€œin or outâ€ - the vote didnâ€™t state what sort of in or out people wanted because there are multiple variants - the â€œcampaignersâ€ etc made multiple promises but ultimately if we take what the vote stated it was an Out vote - thatâ€™s it .

But I think the whole process was under estimated - why people voted one way or the other shouldnâ€™t really matter because it will be near on impossible to satisfy even every voter who voted leave - some wanted to stay connect in various ways , some wanted to have a deal , some wanted to leave totally with no deal but these were all option open to the government after the vote was cast but there was no mandate for which way they go in that â€œoutâ€ journey

And when it comes to how people wanted to stay â€œinâ€ - do we have a choice ? If the vote ended up being to â€œstay in â€œ the UK government surely would just carry on and continue to develop the relationship with the EU ( and keep our special deal )

Either way this whole process has caused a lot of issues and problems through every level of society and in families and social circles with some of this issues very deep rooted now and beyond repair. Interesting and prob hard times ahead for many
		
Click to expand...

Some good points.

On the issue of we don't know what the various options were that people wanted. That's an impossible circle to square once, and was made even more so once the waters were muddied by asking it. Was it deliberately asked, post-Referendum, to make going forward impossible? There's some very, very intelligent people out there who may well have recognised the difficulties asking it would cause - nowt like a Remain PM to really screw things up - but maybe thats just me being cynical.

There were 2 simple solutions; Leave, then negotiate.  Or negotiate a framework trade agreement at the same time as the WA. It could have had a start date 24hrs after Leave. That would have satisfied those in the EU about the sanctity of Art 50. But once the EU realised how bloody wet May was about leaving they became emboldened. Thats changed with Johnson's hardline negotiating stance - they've bent over backward on this extension., even after Johnson's second letter.

As for Remain and hope to change the EU, my preferred option. I think Cameron's efforts to get something out of the EU prior to the vote showed how little the EU is willing to change. And since then, for all many people having said they think the EU got it wrong, the EU has had plenty of time to up the offer, and it hasn't happened.

"Carry on and develop the relationship..." apart from the UK's money, the UK has always been seen as a nuisance that has been tolerated because of the money. And for all the perception that the UK hasn't tried to be a part of the EU, the UK implements more of the EU rules than almost every other EU member state bar Germany. It laughable when reading on here about workers rights and environmental protection - they are EU laws and they are barely nodded at here in southern Spain but they've been fully implemented in the UK. The UK argues like hell when it feels its in the right but when the ref blows the whistle they behave.


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2019)

I love Chaka Umanna's stoicism!

His main thrust of this interview https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-50208063/chuka-umunna-our-primary-goal-is-stopping-brexit 
is that 'we simply haven't had the support from a significant number of... MPs....to get it through'. 

Has he not realised that his/their idea is simply a non-starter!


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## Dando (Oct 28, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Slowly but surely will be sold off 

People say we can't trust the EU and are sceptical about them

Yet trust the conservatives to protect something they have wanted to rip apart for years? It costs them too much money 

Why pay to help others when one can have more money for ones self
		
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I guess labours PFI contracts have done wonders for the nhs budgets


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 28, 2019)

Independent Group for Change leader Anna Soubry says a further referendum, rather than an election, would be the best route forward - adding it is â€œwithin our grasp". 

Which actually means "an election would mean my constituents would kick me out of a job so I don't want any part of one thank you"


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## JamesR (Oct 28, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Independent Group for Change leader Anna Soubry says a further referendum, rather than an election, would be the best route forward - adding it is â€œwithin our grasp". 

Which actually means "an election would mean my constituents would kick me out of a job so I don't want any part of one thank you"
		
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Surely, if all she cares about is staying in Parliament, she could have just voted for the deals, remained a Tory and carried on as she was?


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## patricks148 (Oct 28, 2019)

Dando said:



			I guess labours PFI contracts have done wonders for the nhs budgets
		
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what were they supposed to do afyer the Tories closed down so many Hosp in the 80's and 90?


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## drdel (Oct 28, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Independent Group for Change leader Anna Soubry says a further referendum, rather than an election, would be the best route forward - adding it is â€œwithin our grasp".

Which actually means "an election would mean my constituents would kick me out of a job so I don't want any part of one thank you"
		
Click to expand...

And SNP wants to ensure younger voters (JC wants the same but Labour will abstain!)) and EU nationals are given a vote in order to support Swinson - I wonder what other creative stuff will be next. Its funny Bercow has not declared himself OFF on 31st.

I might need, or I might not or maybe I will have an aspirin - sorry I've got an attack of the JCs !!!


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			what were they supposed to do afyer the Tories closed down so many Hosp in the 80's and 90?
		
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Maybe where you are but Labour closed 5 hospitals in and around Middlesbrough in the early 00's.


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## Dando (Oct 28, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			what were they supposed to do afyer the Tories closed down so many Hosp in the 80's and 90?
		
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Maybe not lumber the nhs with huge  great sodding debts for years, just because it made them look good as it was paid for off the books.
Those contracts were absolutely   horrendous


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You canâ€™t use that argument comparing the Referendum to other Elections, every other Election will have People associated with Parties who produce manifestoâ€™s and have a detailed current history.
The Referendum was unique in that it crossed Political Lines, it wasnâ€™t fought under normal circumstances and ultimately there wasnâ€™t an individual being held responsible for either side.
Yes I agree it is down to individuals to do their own research etc, but letâ€™s not pretend the Referendum Campaign was genuine from either side.
Then on the ballot paper was a very basic question to which the answer was anything but basic.
		
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I assure you I can make that comparison and I am.  The referendum was no different to an election, the manifestos were the benefits stated for remain and leave, either accept the stated benefits of being in the EU plus Camerons negotiated new changes verses leaving and taking back control of laws, money, trade etc.  What do you mean by an individual being held responsible, we're not a dictatorship, our government is held responsible for running the country (or as it currently is, Parliament).
I assume your ballot paper in elections has the same binary choice as mine, pick someone you want to represent you. You dont then get a plethora of options on how you would like to be represented.  Have you ever seen an election thats genuine from either side and I never suggested it was.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			what were they supposed to do afyer the Tories closed down so many Hosp in the 80's and 90?
		
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Conservatives shut down a number of archaic Mental Hospitals that were horrible institutions in place of the care in the community schemes, I think this was a progressive move. They also closed a number of military hospitals and moved military care into hospitals with specialist care for the trauma type injuries normally associated with the military. Im not sure if this was a great sucsess or not, maybe some on here will have had experience.


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You canâ€™t use that argument comparing the Referendum to other Elections, every other Election will have People associated with Parties who produce manifestoâ€™s and have a detailed current history.
The Referendum was unique in that it crossed Political Lines, it wasnâ€™t fought under normal circumstances and ultimately there wasnâ€™t an individual being held responsible for either side.
Yes I agree it is down to individuals to do their own research etc, but letâ€™s not pretend the Referendum Campaign was genuine from either side.
Then on the ballot paper was a very basic question to which the answer was anything but basic.
		
Click to expand...

Both the Tories and Labour campaigned on a Remain platform. And both said they would respect the result post-vote. At first both did, but when May foolishly called a GE and to all intents and purposes lost pretty much all her power Labour smelled blood. Its been typical party politics ever since and a total pile of poo.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Some good points.

On the issue of we don't know what the various options were that people wanted. That's an impossible circle to square once, and was made even more so once the waters were muddied by asking it. Was it deliberately asked, post-Referendum, to make going forward impossible? There's some very, very intelligent people out there who may well have recognised the difficulties asking it would cause - nowt like a Remain PM to really screw things up - but maybe thats just me being cynical.

There were 2 simple solutions; Leave, then negotiate.  Or negotiate a framework trade agreement at the same time as the WA. It could have had a start date 24hrs after Leave. That would have satisfied those in the EU about the sanctity of Art 50. But once the EU realised how bloody wet May was about leaving they became emboldened. Thats changed with Johnson's hardline negotiating stance - they've bent over backward on this extension., even after Johnson's second letter.

As for Remain and hope to change the EU, my preferred option. I think Cameron's efforts to get something out of the EU prior to the vote showed how little the EU is willing to change. And since then, for all many people having said they think the EU got it wrong, the EU has had plenty of time to up the offer, and it hasn't happened.

"Carry on and develop the relationship..." apart from the UK's money, the UK has always been seen as a nuisance that has been tolerated because of the money. And for all the perception that the UK hasn't tried to be a part of the EU, the UK implements more of the EU rules than almost every other EU member state bar Germany. It laughable when reading on here about workers rights and environmental protection - they are EU laws and they are barely nodded at here in southern Spain but they've been fully implemented in the UK. The UK argues like hell when it feels its in the right but when the ref blows the whistle they behave.
		
Click to expand...

This always confused me .
For one of the three main net contributors we had so little influence in the EU.
When Cameron asked for some changes he got two fingers.
Thatâ€™s no way to treat one of your main contributors or are the EU so arrogant they think they can just do this.
Letâ€™s be honest a small change would have given Cameron room to spin it at home and the referendum would not have happened.

You canâ€™t change the EU from within this proves it imo.


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## drdel (Oct 28, 2019)

I'm enjoying the JC claim we can't vote in winter because its dark; has he not realised in the 21stC UK there are street lights!, youngsters are often out at night, many businesses operate 24hrs, people go out for shows/cinema/meals in the evening.

 There is also this relatively modern thing called the 'POST'. Voters can register and the Royal Mail will do all the work no matter what time of day it is!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 28, 2019)

Regards the voting debate, heard an interesting comment. Donâ€™t have an election in term time or the students will vote. Out of term time they wonâ€™t because it would have to be a postal vote .. I donâ€™t remember getting my papers for a postal vote, when I was a student. 
Remember all the political parties are up to some fun and games!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			This always confused me .
For one of the three main net contributors we had so little influence in the EU.
When Cameron asked for some changes he got two fingers.
Thatâ€™s no way to treat one of your main contributors or are the EU so arrogant they think they can just do this.
Letâ€™s be honest a small change would have given Cameron room to spin it at home and the referendum would not have happened.

You canâ€™t change the EU from within this proves it imo.
		
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The UK having a brake on FOM may have swung the vote for many.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I assure you I can make that comparison and I am.  The referendum was no different to an election, the manifestos were the benefits stated for remain and leave, either accept the stated benefits of being in the EU plus Camerons negotiated new changes verses leaving and taking back control of laws, money, trade etc.  What do you mean by an individual being held responsible, we're not a dictatorship, our government is held responsible for running the country (or as it currently is, Parliament).
I assume your ballot paper in elections has the same binary choice as mine, pick someone you want to represent you. You dont then get a plethora of options on how you would like to be represented.  Have you ever seen an election thats genuine from either side and I never suggested it was.
		
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Happy for you to show me the Leave or Remain Manifesto from the Referendum.
As for the individual being held responsible, youâ€™ve quoted Cameron, did you mean the PM or the Leader of the then Government, or the Tory Party, because surely as Leader the individual takes responsibility.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Regards the voting debate, heard an interesting comment. Donâ€™t have an election in term time or the students will vote. Out of term time they wonâ€™t because it would have to be a postal vote .. I donâ€™t remember getting my papers for a postal vote, when I was a student.
Remember all the political parties are up to some fun and games!
		
Click to expand...

You have to apply for a postal vote. Nothing stopping them doing that. Makes sense for a student anyway as with any election there is a good chance that they will not be in the correct location for where they are registered. 

I believe JC has also commented about older people not voting in winter because it gets dark earlier. Good job they are not at work then.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Happy for you to show me the Leave or Remain Manifesto from the Referendum.
As for the individual being held responsible, youâ€™ve quoted Cameron, did you mean the PM or the Leader of the then Government, or the Tory Party, because surely as Leader the individual takes responsibility.

Click to expand...

Read it again. The choice given to us by the Government (of which Cameron was Prime Minister) was to accept remaining in his new reformed EU or Leaving it.  I explained that no individual is ever responsible , you suggested that.  Leave and remain created their projections on what the countries future would be like if our vote was one way or the other. Did you not get the Governments booklet through your letterbox explaining it for you.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Read it again. The choice given to us by the Government (of which Cameron was Prime Minister) was to accept remaining in his new reformed EU or Leaving it.  I explained that no individual is ever responsible , you suggested that.  Leave and remain created their projections on what the countries future would be like if our vote was one way or the other. Did you not get the Governments booklet through your letterbox explaining it for you.
		
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Youâ€™re not getting it, whether you wonâ€™t or canâ€™t see it, Leaders take ultimate responsibility, it comes with the job, remain nor leave had a leader or a joined up plan that produced a document (manifesto) showing what they intended to do if the result went their way.
For example. No one discussed a No Deal scenario except the remain supporters and that was dismissed as project fear.
Whether you like to hear it or not, some people believed things like the bus and the immigration posters etc.
The actual facts were hard to come by.

When we have the GE, do you think people will vote how they feel about Brexit or along Party lines?


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## Fade and Die (Oct 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			I'm enjoying the JC claim we can't vote in winter because its dark; has he not realised in the 21stC UK there are street lights!, youngsters are often out at night, many businesses operate 24hrs, people go out for shows/cinema/meals in the evening.

There is also this relatively modern thing called the 'POST'. Voters can register and the Royal Mail will do all the work no matter what time of day it is!
		
Click to expand...

Donâ€™t worry, Labour are fully aware of the opportunities postal voting offers...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-cambridgeshire-48665324


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 28, 2019)

Lib Dems and SNP saying that they will support an election on 9th December but not 12th December as they don't want the deal negotiated to go through parliament before an election. Is three days actually going to make any difference when it's clear that the numbers just aren't there to get the deal agreed anyway?


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Regards the voting debate, heard an interesting comment. Donâ€™t have an election in term time or the students will vote. Out of term time they wonâ€™t because it would have to be a postal vote .. I donâ€™t remember getting my papers for a postal vote, when I was a student.
Remember all the political parties are up to some fun and games!
		
Click to expand...




Lord Tyrion said:



			You have to apply for a postal vote. Nothing stopping them doing that. Makes sense for a student anyway as with any election there is a good chance that they will not be in the correct location for where they are registered.

I believe JC has also commented about older people not voting in winter because it gets dark earlier. Good job they are not at work then.
		
Click to expand...

Just how many students generally don't vote, and will it impact the numbers that much? There's just over 2.3m students in the UK, of which just under 500k are foreign students. What is the usual turnout amongst the student community? 58% turnout amongst the student fraternity. Just over 1,000,000 voted. Just over 800,000 didn't vote.

With only 32,000,000 voting out of a potential 47,000,000 I'm inclined to think there's bigger problems engaging with the general adult population rather than students.... unless of course someone believes that only chasing the young is the way to swing it... cunning, conniving, duplicitous? Nah, no one would do that... would they?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re not getting it, whether you wonâ€™t or canâ€™t see it, Leaders take ultimate responsibility, it comes with the job, remain nor leave had a leader or a joined up plan that produced a document (manifesto) showing what they intended to do if the result went their way.
For example. No one discussed a No Deal scenario except the remain supporters and that was dismissed as project fear.
Whether you like to hear it or not, some people believed things like the bus and the immigration posters etc.
The actual facts were hard to come by.

When we have the GE, do you think people will vote how they feel about Brexit or along Party lines?
		
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You can talk for yourself. I was crystal clear on the process when I voted. I understood that if we decided to leave article 50 would be enacted, there would be two years negotiations between our government and the EU to attempt a leaving deal, if no deal was reached we either left without one or a mutually agreed extension could be allowed to continue discussions on a deal, there was no mention at the time of second referendums or stopping article 50.
When people vote they vote according to what criteria they wish to make their decision: conscience, predujice, loyalty, class, facts, hatred, its up to them and no different whether it be an election or referendum, its just a democratic process.


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## Grant85 (Oct 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Lib Dems and SNP saying that they will support an election on 9th December but not 12th December as they don't want the deal negotiated to go through parliament before an election. Is three days actually going to make any difference when it's clear that the numbers just aren't there to get the deal agreed anyway?
		
Click to expand...

This does seem a bit of both sides wanting things on their terms, just for the sake of it. 

Although i do think at that time of year, Monday will be better than Thursday - given the number of Christmas events that will more likely be on nearer the weekend and people not bothering to go and vote. 

And why not give the new government / HoC a few extra days to get things in order before Christmas recess.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You can talk for yourself. I was crystal clear on the process when I voted. I understood that if we decided to leave article 50 would be enacted, there would be two years negotiations between our government and the EU to attempt a leaving deal, if no deal was reached we either left without one or a mutually agreed extension could be allowed to continue discussions on a deal, there was no mention at the time of second referendums or stopping article 50.
When people vote they vote according to what criteria they wish to make their decision: conscience, predujice, loyalty, class, facts, hatred, its up to them and no different whether it be an election or referendum, its just a democratic process.
		
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You voted exactly the same way as me, the only way Iâ€™d suggest weâ€™d differ is I never expected and still donâ€™t want to Leave on No Deal terms.
Maybe, just Maybe the fact is, none of the present scenario was ever envisaged and the HoC should of looked at all possible scenarios(or tried) before this chain of events began.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Lib Dems and SNP saying that they will support an election on 9th December but not 12th December as they don't want the deal negotiated to go through parliament before an election. Is three days actually going to make any difference when it's clear that the numbers just aren't there to get the deal agreed anyway?
		
Click to expand...

From what I have managed to grab from social media - if the Tories win an election on the 12th the timing I believe means that we can leave the EU with no deal - but we canâ€™t if the election is on the 9th ? I have no idea why though


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You voted exactly the same way as me, the only way Iâ€™d suggest weâ€™d differ is I never expected and still donâ€™t want to Leave on No Deal terms.
Maybe, just Maybe the fact is, none of the present scenario was ever envisaged and the HoC should of looked at all possible scenarios(or tried) before this chain of events began.
		
Click to expand...

I prefer us to leave with a good deal, that deal included a free trade agreement, i have doubts we will be able to reach a good trade deal with the eu and if so would prefer a no deal. After leaving there would (imo) be a number of smaller deals made anyhow.  I dont agree with all this talk of crashing out and catestrophic outcomes. Its just a change of trading arrangements and will soon blow over and settle down. The EU will always want a trade deal with us.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 28, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			From what I have managed to grab from social media - if the Tories win an election on the 12th the timing I believe means that we can leave the EU with no deal - but we canâ€™t if the election is on the 9th ? I have no idea why though
		
Click to expand...

This is what I've read as well but also don't understand why. If we have an election and the Tories win a majority then they could turn around and say we're leaving with no deal. The only way to absolutely take a no deal Brexit out of the equation is to agree to the deal that has been negotiated or revoke article 50. Even a second referendum can't guarantee it as another leave vote leaves that possibility on the table.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 28, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I prefer us to leave with a good deal, that deal included a free trade agreement, i have doubts we will be able to reach a good trade deal with the eu and if so would prefer a no deal. After leaving there would (imo) be a number of smaller deals made anyhow.  I dont agree with all this talk of crashing out and catestrophic outcomes. Its just a change of trading arrangements and will soon blow over and settle down. The EU will always want a trade deal with us.
		
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The opposition want no deal off the table before a GE.
But isnâ€™t that just another choice that should be open to us.
Why should they deny the public the chance to vote no deal.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 28, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			The opposition want no deal off the table before a GE.
But isnâ€™t that just another choice that should be open to us.
Why should they deny the public the chance to vote no deal.
		
Click to expand...

The only way to take no deal off the table is to revoke article 50. Unless that is done then no deal remains an option.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			The only way to take no deal off the table is to revoke article 50. Unless that is done then no deal remains an option.
		
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Not really bothered by the technicalities of it.
Just them telling me I canâ€™t have that choice.
Nothing should be off the table!


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## Mudball (Oct 29, 2019)

Why not have the vote on the 25th?? Everyone will be in their home constituencies ... equally we can finally say â€˜Turkeys voting for Christmasâ€™ ...

PS: any reference to Turkey joining the EU is purely coincidental 

ðŸ¦ƒ  ðŸ¦ƒ ðŸ¦ƒ  ðŸ¦ƒ


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## harpo_72 (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just how many students generally don't vote, and will it impact the numbers that much? There's just over 2.3m students in the UK, of which just under 500k are foreign students. What is the usual turnout amongst the student community? 58% turnout amongst the student fraternity. Just over 1,000,000 voted. Just over 800,000 didn't vote.

With only 32,000,000 voting out of a potential 47,000,000 I'm inclined to think there's bigger problems engaging with the general adult population rather than students.... unless of course someone believes that only chasing the young is the way to swing it... cunning, conniving, duplicitous? Nah, no one would do that... would they?
		
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The point was there was an attempt to reduce those voting numbers .. irrespective of the numbers


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			The point was there was an attempt to reduce those voting numbers .. irrespective of the numbers
		
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That is just someone(Corbyn) putting spin on it to score cheap political points. Numbers I quoted show several things, 1) the % of students voting in the last GE is pretty close to the % turnout of the general population 2) in terms of the overall turnout it is 2% of the vote. 3) the argument around the date, in respect of students voting, is an absolute load of Rolex. 

Have a look at the argument, i.e. it clashes with when the students go home. The students were at home for the last election yet voted in numbers comparable with the % of the general voting population.

And as for the continuous shouting that the young didn't vote in the referendum, and I too got took in by all the noise, 87% of students voted in the referendum, against an overall voter turnout of 72%. The largest % demographic of voters in the referendum was amongst students, beating the older generation by 12%. And BTW, have a look at the dates for different GE's and the referendum and then correlate that against the number of students that voted. Whether they were at home or at uni/college makes virtually no difference whatsoever.

The whole argument put out by Corbyn is pure, unadulterated spin to score cheap political points, and so many people are getting sucked in by it. Corbyn is one of the very best at playing the victim card on behalf of (supposed) disenfranchised groups and hoovers up votes because of it. People need to look at the detail, and realise what a charlatan he is.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			That is just someone(Corbyn) putting spin on it to score cheap political points. Numbers I quoted show several things, 1) the % of students voting in the last GE is pretty close to the % turnout of the general population 2) in terms of the overall turnout it is 2% of the vote. 3) the argument around the date, in respect of students voting, is an absolute load of Rolex.

Have a look at the argument, i.e. it clashes with when the students go home. The students were at home for the last election yet voted in numbers comparable with the % of the general voting population.

And as for the continuous shouting that the young didn't vote in the referendum, and I too got took in by all the noise, 87% of students voted in the referendum, against an overall voter turnout of 72%. The largest % demographic of voters in the referendum was amongst students, beating the older generation by 12%. And BTW, have a look at the dates for different GE's and the referendum and then correlate that against the number of students that voted. Whether they were at home or at uni/college makes virtually no difference whatsoever.

The whole argument put out by Corbyn is pure, unadulterated spin to score cheap political points, and so many people are getting sucked in by it. Corbyn is one of the very best at playing the victim card on behalf of (supposed) disenfranchised groups and hoovers up votes because of it. People need to look at the detail, and realise what a charlatan he is.
		
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It wasnâ€™t Corbyn who raised it


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## patricks148 (Oct 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Conservatives shut down a number of archaic Mental Hospitals that were horrible institutions in place of the care in the community schemes, I think this was a progressive move. They also closed a number of military hospitals and moved military care into hospitals with specialist care for the trauma type injuries normally associated with the military. Im not sure if this was a great sucsess or not, maybe some on here will have had experience.
		
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where i grew aup both local Hosp closed, St Albans and Harpenden, some of the Host you were then supposed to go to instead then started to have some OP depts moved to other hosp even further away


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			It wasnâ€™t Corbyn who raised it
		
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You're right. Barry Gardiner has just said it on BBC Breakfast. Can't find who raised it first.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You're right. Barry Gardiner has just said it on BBC Breakfast. Can't find who raised it first.
		
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Probably Cummings going for the 12th knowing the students will of gone home.


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## Mudball (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You're right. Barry Gardiner has just said it on BBC Breakfast. Can't find who raised it first.
		
Click to expand...

it is the Will of the Students.. does not matter who raises it.. it must be implemented ðŸ˜œðŸ˜œ


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably Cummings going for the 12th knowing the students will of gone home. 

Click to expand...

Students will still be at university then. They finish and go home that weekend at most places. Saying that, it all depends where they are on the electoral register, at their parents home address or their university address? They can't be at both.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 29, 2019)

A GE will be a referendum in another name. Just what else does anyone care about at the mo? They all say the same stuff anyway. NHS / Taxes / Transport  / The old etc etc, they will do  whatever they want, assuming they have a working majority. So it's all about Brexit. FULL STOP.  Nigel is quiet isn't he? 

Oh and the lastst thing about giving 16/17 yo the vote is just laughable. The Libs and the SNP are stark staring bonkers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Students will still be at university then. They finish and go home that weekend at most places. Saying that, it all depends where they are on the electoral register, at their parents home address or their university address? They can't be at both.
		
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I think they can.  They just can't vote at both (though they can in Local elections...)


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think they can.  They just can't vote at both (though they can in Local elections...)
		
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Sorry, well picked up. I meant to say that they can only vote at one location, I just didn't type it as I thought in my head. I wonder if those who can vote in two locations are actually monitored to ensure that they don't?

Very odd that you effectively can vote twice in local elections. That doesn't seem right and could be open to abuse.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

jezza the red falls off the fence :

Labour will vote for an election to be held on December 12th. -The Party will also back an amendment for 16 and 17 year olds to vote. -But the Electoral Commission says this is impossible in time for December.

Corbyn says conditions met, he's backing the election

 This is true. But it was also true at the time of the vote yesterday evening and also at the time of Jeremy Corbyn's Commons speech.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			jezza the red falls off the fence :

Labour will vote for an election to be held on December 12th. -The Party will also back an amendment for 16 and 17 year olds to vote. -But the Electoral Commission says this is impossible in time for December.

Corbyn says conditions met, he's backing the election

This is true. But it was also true at the time of the vote yesterday evening and also at the time of Jeremy Corbyn's Commons speech.
		
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...or the 11th?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...or the 11th?
		
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Or 9th, they havenâ€™t actually said which date they are supporting.
Great to see No Deal definitely off the table until 31st Jan, imo.


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## Mudball (Oct 29, 2019)

So what happens when we get together over Christmas and we have yet another Hung parliament.   What if Remain Lib Dem support the Leave Tory to keep the 'cant make up my mind today' Labour.


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## USER1999 (Oct 29, 2019)

Any one who is not going to be in their constituency on polling day can apply for a postal vote. It is easy, and there is no excuse for not voting if you want too.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Or 9th, they havenâ€™t actually said which date they are supporting.
Great to see No Deal definitely off the table until 31st Jan, imo.
		
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Are you sure about No Deal being off the table?  I haven't yet seen or heard anything that absolutely stops Johnson going back on anything he might have said about ND being off the table until then.  I


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Any one who is not going to be in their constituency on polling day can apply for a postal vote. It is easy, and there is no excuse for not voting if you want too.
		
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...or a proxy vote.  Dead easy to arrange - we did it for the European Elections when we were in Australia - and we did it from Australia.

Must go check that my 24 and 27yr olds are registered.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Are you sure about No Deal being off the table?  I haven't yet seen or heard anything that absolutely stops Johnson going back on anything he might have said about ND being off the table until then.  I
		
Click to expand...

Only going by the statement as to why Labour apparently supporting a GE.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Oh and the lastst thing about giving 16/17 yo the vote is just laughable. The Libs and the SNP are stark staring bonkers.
		
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Why is it laughable? This age group will have to live with the decision of any vote for longer than other age groups 

A lot of people left school at 16 straight to work but get no say on the world?

What makes 18yos that much more mature than 16yos to make decisions ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Only going by the statement as to why Labour apparently supporting a GE.
		
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I heard that...but until and unless I see what actually makes it true then I do not believe it...because Labour have to have some 'valid' reason for changing their mind on the December GE.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 29, 2019)

Hopefully there's a decent independent candidate on my ballot paper this time round...

Otherwise 'none of the above' gets my vote... Again...

Can see it being a bit of a bloodbath for the mainstream parties... Believe, it's fair to say, the majority have had their fill of political shenanigans...


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I heard that...but until and unless I see what actually makes it true then I do not believe it...because Labour have to have some 'valid' reason for changing their mind on the December GE.
		
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Labour have said that as the EU have extended for 3 month No Deal is effectively off the table.


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## chrisd (Oct 29, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Why is it laughable? This age group will have to live with the decision of any vote for longer than other age groups

A lot of people left school at 16 straight to work but get no say on the world?

What makes 18yos that much more mature than 16yos to make decisions ?
		
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My 1 year old grandson will have to live with it for longer, shall I make a case for asking him?


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			My 1 year old grandson will have to live with it for longer, shall I make a case for asking him?
		
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Surely he's on the electoral register?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Labour have said that as the EU have extended for 3 month No Deal is effectively off the table.
		
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Yes - I heard that, but I haven't been able to reconcile the fact of the extension with No Deal 100% off the table.  And as you say _effectively_...that implies it is still possible?


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - I heard that, but I haven't been able to reconcile the fact of the extension with No Deal 100% off the table.  And as you say _effectively_...that implies it is still possible?
		
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50221856


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 29, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Why is it laughable? This age group will have to live with the decision of any vote for longer than other age groups

A lot of people left school at 16 straight to work but get no say on the world?

What makes 18yos that much more mature than 16yos to make decisions ?
		
Click to expand...

Because , apart from common sense telling us that 16 yr olds don't know enough of the world to vote, we also have a law system in this country that says anyone under 18 is a child and when in legal proceedings they cannot  be named to "protect " them.
( something I imagine you agree with).
Yet, you want these "children" to have the vote. ðŸ™„


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...or a proxy vote.  Dead easy to arrange - we did it for the European Elections when we were in Australia - and we did it from Australia.

Must go check that my 24 and 27yr olds are registered.
		
Click to expand...

If at 24 and 27 they are not capable of sorting that out themselves should they be voting?


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50221856

Click to expand...

Now we can show these "honourables" what we think of them. 
And I imagine Laura , Adam et al, are tingling and getting all of a quiverðŸ˜


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - I heard that, but I haven't been able to reconcile the fact of the extension with No Deal 100% off the table.  And as you say _effectively_...that implies it is still possible?
		
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No deal is only off the table until 31st January (at the minute). After that date there are 4 possible options. No deal, Boris' deal, a further extension or revoke Article 50. No deal cannot be taken totally out of the equation until we have a deal agreed or Article 50 is revoked. Those are the only two ways that no deal is permanently ruled out.

No deal could be back on the table after an election. If the Brexit party won a majority then they could decide unilaterally that we were leaving straight away with no deal. Equally if the Lib Dems won a majority they could revoke Article 50.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sorry, well picked up. I meant to say that they can only vote at one location, I just didn't type it as I thought in my head. I wonder if those who can vote in two locations are actually monitored to ensure that they don't?

Very odd that you effectively can vote twice in local elections. That doesn't seem right and could be open to abuse.
		
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People living at one address can end up having 2 polling cards and voting twice if they use both. My understanding is that it is not closely supervised but that is based on experience from a while back and may have changed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			If at 24 and 27 they are not capable of sorting that out themselves should they be voting?
		
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Oh they are - but they've both recently moved and I want to make damn sure they vote...and they will...


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh they are - but they've both recently moved and I want to make damn sure they vote...
		
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Surely thatâ€™s their choice, not yours.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Surely thatâ€™s their choice, not yours.
		
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It is.   We have brought them up to understand the importance of voting.  Just want to make sure they haven't forgotten to register at their new address.


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Surely thatâ€™s their choice, not yours.
		
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Don't forget they've had over 3 years of intense brainwashing...


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 29, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			People living at one address can end up having 2 polling cards and voting twice if they use both. My understanding is that it is not closely supervised but that is based on experience from a while back and may have changed.
		
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I haven't taken a polling card to a station for a while but if you have two cards that presumably means you are on the list twice. If you vote early morning then go again later on in the day there is a good chance that the people at the polling station will either have changed or forgotten you have already been. Perhaps it should be like in some countries, I think India does this, where they dab the back of your hand with ink after you have voted so that you can not vote twice. Simple and effective.

I don't know that voter fraud in the UK is a big issue but any sense that it may happen is obviously not good.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

@Anna_Soubry
 Â· 1h
I will be standing for re election in Broxtowe. Itâ€™s been an honour to serve my constituents and I look forward to their support in any forthcoming General Election. Please DM me if you want to support my campaign #VoteSoubry


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Don't forget they've had over 3 years of intense brainwashing...

Click to expand...

Fortunately they both demonstrate independent thought and strong social conscience - they understand very well (through their own personal experience) that not all are as fortunate as they are, and that their wellbeing is tied in with the wellbeing of others and not just themselves.

I know pretty much who they won't vote for - I don't know who they will.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Because , apart from common sense telling us that 16 yr olds don't know enough of the world to vote, we also have a law system in this country that says anyone under 18 is a child and when in legal proceedings they cannot  be named to "protect " them.
( something I imagine you agree with).
Yet, you want these "children" to have the vote. ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

These children can get married at 16 (with parental consent), can move out aswell, work, have kids 

But can't vote


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I haven't taken a polling card to a station for a while but if you have two cards that presumably means you are on the list twice. If you vote early morning then go again later on in the day there is a good chance that the people at the polling station will either have changed or forgotten you have already been. Perhaps it should be like in some countries, I think India does this, where they dab the back of your hand with ink after you have voted so that you can not vote twice. Simple and effective.

I don't know that voter fraud in the UK is a big issue but any sense that it may happen is obviously not good.
		
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My experience was that you would be on two different electoral rolls in different polling wards and therefore would only be voting once at each station. ðŸ˜‰


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## drdel (Oct 29, 2019)

Don't get to excited there will be amendments and Bercow is still in the chair.


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I haven't taken a polling card to a station for a while but if you have two cards that presumably means you are on the list twice. If you vote early morning then go again later on in the day there is a good chance that the people at the polling station will either have changed or forgotten you have already been. Perhaps it should be like in some countries, I think India does this, where they dab the back of your hand with ink after you have voted so that you can not vote twice. Simple and effective.

I don't know that voter fraud in the UK is a big issue but any sense that it may happen is obviously not good.
		
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Its mountains out of mole hills.  Records show that the voting patterns amongst student hardly differ irrespective of it being term time or not. You're looking at a potential difference in voting numbers of 2,000 votes. Split that over 600+ constituencies = 30 votes per constituency. And with all the hype more students will make an effort. Its soundbite politics by Labour put out purely to discredit. Its cheap snake oil sales pitches.

Does anyone really think Conservative Central office is bothered about 2,000 votes, and of which with the current student support for Labour = 440 votes? Its pure spin.

*muses thoughtfully* is it really so easy to distract the electorate?


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fortunately they both demonstrate independent thought and strong social conscience - they understand very well (through their own personal experience) that not all are as fortunate as they are, and that their wellbeing is tied in with the wellbeing of others and not just themselves.

I know pretty much who they won't vote for - I don't know who they will.
		
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Chill Hugh. Did you miss the winky Smilie?


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:





@Anna_Soubry
Â· 1h
I will be standing for re election in Broxtowe. Itâ€™s been an honour to serve my constituents and I look forward to their support in any forthcoming General Election. Please DM me if you want to support my campaign #VoteSoubry
		
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Wow, that was hilarious


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## jp5 (Oct 29, 2019)

More importantly they can pay taxes at 16, but can't vote on how they would like those taxes spent. Bizarre!


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2019)

jp5 said:



			More importantly they can pay taxes at 16, but can't vote on how they would like those taxes spent. Bizarre!
		
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They aren't actually old enough to understand


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## robinthehood (Oct 29, 2019)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...asons-why-its-not-boriss-fault-20191029190185


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:





@Anna_Soubry
Â· 1h
I will be standing for re election in Broxtowe. Itâ€™s been an honour to serve my constituents and I look forward to their support in any forthcoming General Election. Please DM me if you want to support my campaign #VoteSoubry
		
Click to expand...


More like DVFM.  Don't Vote For Me.     Might as well clear out your desk now.  You ain't coming back.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			They aren't actually old enough to understand 

Click to expand...

I think if brexit has proven anything is nobody is old enough to understand!


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 29, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I think if brexit has proven anything is nobody is old enough to understand!
		
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Spot on

Old people: '16 year olds are not mature enough to understand the complexities of voting and its implications'

16 year olds: 'Remind me how Brexit is going..... '


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 29, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Why is it laughable? This age group will have to live with the decision of any vote for longer than other age groups 

A lot of people left school at 16 straight to work but get no say on the world?

What makes 18yos that much more mature than 16yos to make decisions ?
		
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They canâ€™t smoke, they canâ€™t gamble, canâ€™t drink, treated as a minor in the eyes of the law, canâ€™t drive. 
Their life experience is nil, easily manipulated and led, canâ€™t write a will, cant watch porn, canâ€™t buy a house.

Another remainer unicorn belief that the young are pro EU. Theyâ€™ll vote what their parents vote for, right after theyâ€™ve had their waffles and turkey dinosaurs.  I donâ€™t think I knew what the EU was till 2014/15, how will they? What 16 year old switches on the news after school?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2019)

If someone is allowed to join the forces at 16 then I see no reason why they canâ€™t vote at 16 - itâ€™s also their future and there is no reason why they canâ€™t have a say in that future


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If someone is allowed to join the forces at 16 then I see no reason why they canâ€™t vote at 16 - itâ€™s also their future and there is no reason why they canâ€™t have a say in that future
		
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Canâ€™t join without parental consent...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Canâ€™t join without parental consent...
		
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They can still join though , they can gain full time employment , pay tax , pay NI , contribute to the society, get married - they can go on operations with the military - why shouldnâ€™t a 16 year old be allowed to Vote - what happens between 16 and 18 that suddenly makes them ok to vote


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If someone is allowed to join the forces at 16 then I see no reason why they canâ€™t vote at 16 - itâ€™s also their future and there is no reason why they canâ€™t have a say in that future
		
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I kind of agree but would pose a question; if MP's didn't want to rush Boris' Brexit Bill through in 3 days would it be right to give 16/17 year olds the vote without giving it proper scrutiny first?

There has to be a cut-off for age as its fairly obvious you wouldn't want a bunch of 5 year olds voting but when? Should it be 16, 17 or as it is? Don't forget, the decision to make it 18 was done so with proper scrutiny... have things changed that much?

As for if they've joined the Forces argument. The UK has been heavily criticised by the UN for allowing minors to join, and is the only country in Europe to allow 16 yr olds to join, one of only 20 in the world. And 16/17 yr olds can't serve on the frontline. They're still legally minors.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2019)

jp5 said:



			More importantly they can pay taxes at 16, but can't vote on how they would like those taxes spent. Bizarre!
		
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I have never met a 16 yr old and had a conversation about politics with them.
Seen three juniors today having lunch so I asked them.
Two said they were â€œnot arsedâ€ one said â€œcanâ€™t be bothered unless I can vote on my phoneâ€

I am sure there are many clued up and canâ€™t see why if they want to vote ,,,just let them.
They are the future after all.


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## Wolf (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If someone is allowed to join the forces at 16 then I see no reason why they canâ€™t vote at 16 - itâ€™s also their future and there is no reason why they canâ€™t have a say in that future
		
Click to expand...

In part you're right but at 16 can only be classed a boy/girl soldier, can only join with parental consent and can't go on active service until 18years old as still classed as minors. 

I get your point though if you're old  to earn etc should be able to vote how your earnings  should be spent. Plus the current education system is that everyone has to stay in some form of education until 18, so I guess one big get out would be they're still of school age so therefore can't vote.


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

Wolf said:



			In part you're right but at 16 can only be classed a boy/girl soldier, can only join with parental consent and can't go on active service until 18years old as still classed as minors.

I get your point though if you're old  to earn etc should be able to vote how your earnings  should be spent. Plus the current education system is that everyone has to stay in some form of education until 18, so I guess one big get out would be they're still of school age so therefore can't vote.
		
Click to expand...

Just being a little facetious, I should have been able to vote from 12. Two paper rounds...


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

@bbclaurak
Â·
23m

Likely to be a big row about letting EU citizens vote, which might even scupper election vote tonight - worth knowing there are no other EU countries that give all EU citizens right to vote in general elections (exceptions for some Commonwealth citizens and Irish nationals)


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2019)

Wolf said:



			In part you're right but at 16 can only be classed a boy/girl soldier, can only join with parental consent and can't go on active service until 18years old as still classed as minors.

I get your point though if you're old  to earn etc should be able to vote how your earnings  should be spent. Plus the current education system is that everyone has to stay in some form of education until 18, so I guess one big get out would be they're still of school age so therefore can't vote.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the compromise is your tax code then.
Anybody paying into the treasury coffers should have the right to vote 
What age would be the starting point as you could have a 10yr old child model paying tax.

My only concern is some 16 yr olds are very savvy some just idiots.
But that can also go for all ages.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They can still join though , they can gain full time employment , pay tax , pay NI , contribute to the society, get married - they can go on operations with the military - why shouldnâ€™t a 16 year old be allowed to Vote - what happens between 16 and 18 that suddenly makes them ok to vote
		
Click to expand...

Weâ€™d need to not class them as minors. Recognise they are adults,  and in the eyes of the law for them to have a say and allow them to do the things we can legally do without consent. 

Canâ€™t just give them the vote on a whim that it will swing a vote the opposite way. 
Theyâ€™ll have their time two years later, or when they are legally classed as an adult.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just being a little facetious, I should have been able to vote from 12. Two paper rounds...

Click to expand...

Cash in hand ?
No vote.
Paying tax ???


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They can still join though , they can gain full time employment , pay tax , pay NI , contribute to the society, get married - they can go on operations with the military - why shouldnâ€™t a 16 year old be allowed to Vote - what happens between 16 and 18 that suddenly makes them ok to vote
		
Click to expand...

They cannot go into operational areas of armed conflict. During boys/junior service they can also hand in their notice easier than an adult serving member .

Why not lower it further, 15 year old can join juniors. Where do you stop.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2019)

If we give them the vote and class them as adults will they pay full fees at golf clubs?
Will their names be disclosed on the news when they appear in court.?

Itâ€™s 18 for a reason.
But do think some are capable of reasoned debate some not.
But would put money on most canâ€™t be bothered.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			They cannot go into operational areas of armed conflict. During boys/junior service they can also hand in their notice easier than an adult serving member .

Why not lower it further, 15 year old can join juniors. Where do you stop.
		
Click to expand...

They can still join the forces - they can be trained they can do their role , they get full pay for their age , they pay taxes , they are treated as adults

On top of that

They can marry
Apply for a passport on their own
Change their name
Join a trade union
Get a NI number
Leave home
Consent to medical treatment

but for me the key thing is

They can get full time employment and pay tax -
So they should have the same rights as overs that pay taxes and have their say where those taxes go

Why would people be against 16years being allowed to vote ?



Jamesbrown said:



			Weâ€™d need to not class them as minors. Recognise they are adults,  and in the eyes of the law for them to have a say and allow them to do the things we can legally do without consent.
		
Click to expand...

Why do we need to do that for them to vote - should we then allow them to have wages for full time employment without tax ? Why are they treated as adults in one area but not another 




			Canâ€™t just give them the vote on a whim that it will swing a vote the opposite way.
Theyâ€™ll have their time two years later, or when they are legally classed as an adult.
		
Click to expand...

on a whim ? Who says itâ€™s a whim when itâ€™s been discussed many times over the years ? Itâ€™s not a new thing that reared itâ€™s ugly head and it didnâ€™t seem to do any harm to Scotland when they allowed 16year old to vote in the Indy Ref ?

And not sure what â€œswingâ€ the vote ? Do we know how they will vote - but to counter that - are you afraid that they their vote will push to a result that you donâ€™t want


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			They canâ€™t smoke, they canâ€™t gamble, canâ€™t drink, treated as a minor in the eyes of the law, canâ€™t drive.
Their life experience is nil, easily manipulated and led, canâ€™t write a will, cant watch porn, canâ€™t buy a house.

...*  I donâ€™t think I knew what the EU was till 2014/15, how will they?* What 16 year old switches on the news after school?
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are a bit thicker than the current generation of youngsters?


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They can still join the forces - they can be trained they can do their role , they get full pay for their age , they pay taxes , they are treated as adults

On top of that

They can marry
Apply for a passport on their own
Change their name
Join a trade union
Get a NI number
Leave home
Consent to medical treatment

but for me the key thing is

They can get full time employment and pay tax -
So they should have the same rights as overs that pay taxes and have their say where those taxes go

Why would people be against 16years being allowed to vote ?
		
Click to expand...

Agree to an extent .
But it looks like parties are trying to use them to up their vote in the GE coming up.
They could have done this years ago but havnt.
Why the rush?
But do agree it needs sorting in the future.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			They canâ€™t smoke, they canâ€™t gamble, canâ€™t drink, treated as a minor in the eyes of the law, canâ€™t drive.
Their life experience is nil, easily manipulated and led, canâ€™t write a will, cant watch porn, canâ€™t buy a house.

Another remainer unicorn belief that the young are pro EU. Theyâ€™ll vote what their parents vote for, right after theyâ€™ve had their waffles and turkey dinosaurs.  I donâ€™t think I knew what the EU was till 2014/15, how will they? What 16 year old switches on the news after school?
		
Click to expand...

Gambling drinking and smoking? 3 great decisions right there.. no issue every come from them ofc.. can't watch porn? But can have sex.. have kids . Pay taxes... As Phil points out can join the forces 

We learnt about the EU in school from the age of 15 in economics so I'm sure they know more than people who never would have studied it for example 

Can drive at 17 so that's not 18

Can't buy a house but can pay rent on one?


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They can still join the forces - they can be trained they can do their role , they get full pay for their age , they pay taxes , they are treated as adults

On top of that

They can marry
Apply for a passport on their own
Change their name
Join a trade union
Get a NI number
Leave home
Consent to medical treatment

but for me the key thing is

They can get full time employment and pay tax -
So they should have the same rights as overs that pay taxes and have their say where those taxes go

Why would people be against 16years being allowed to
		
Click to expand...

Then the same rules apply to 15 year olds. Where does it stop?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If we give them the vote and class them as adults will they pay full fees at golf clubs?
Will their names be disclosed on the news when they appear in court.?

Itâ€™s 18 for a reason.
But do think some are capable of reasoned debate some not.
But would put money on most canâ€™t be bothered.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but some clubs due reduced fees for 18-35 year olds ...

I could go a membership tomorrow (32) and pay less than others

Can say that of all ages 

Youth prison is for 18-20 year olds aswell so not everything is the magic 18


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2019)

[/QUOTE]

Where can a 15 year old get a full time job and pay taxes? They have to be in education 

At 16 they can be apprentices full time..


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Agree to an extent .
But it looks like parties are trying to use them to up their vote in the GE coming up.
They could have done this years ago but havnt.
Why the rush?
But do agree it needs sorting in the future.
		
Click to expand...

You hit on a very valid point. Some parties/politicians are using this for their own ends. If this had come up mid-term, fine, but bringing up now is purely for self-serving cynical reasons. Long term there may well be some validity to it, and lets have proper scrutiny over it but now isn't the time.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Then the same rules apply to 15 year olds. Where does it stop?
		
Click to expand...

Same rules apply to 15 year olds ?!

which rules ?

You canâ€™t do anything I mentioned as a 15 year so why are using that age ?


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Perhaps you are a bit thicker than the current generation of youngsters?


Click to expand...

Perhaps, probably or maybe I was too busy gambling, drinking and watching porn!


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just being a little facetious, I should have been able to vote from 12. Two paper rounds...

Click to expand...

Don't worry, if Jeremy loses, he'll propose it.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2019)

]



Jamesbrown said:



			Perhaps, probably or maybe I was too busy gambling, drinking and watching porn!
		
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Like a lot of 16-18 year olds don't do that anyways..

Can do the lottery


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You hit on a very valid point. Some parties/politicians are using this for their own ends. If this had come up mid-term, fine, but bringing up now is purely for self-serving cynical reasons. Long term there may well be some validity to it, and lets have proper scrutiny over it but now isn't the time.
		
Click to expand...

Agree that now isnâ€™t the right time - Iâ€™m not bothered about which way they would vote but only that they should be able to have a say - and certainly agree that some are using it to make a political point and for self serving


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## Wolf (Oct 29, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Maybe the compromise is your tax code then.
Anybody paying into the treasury coffers should have the right to vote
What age would be the starting point as you could have a 10yr old child model paying tax.

My only concern is some 16 yr olds are very savvy some just idiots.
But that can also go for all ages.
		
Click to expand...

It's not often LP and I agree but I'm with him on this point. Even though people still get classed as not being old enough for operational duties, they're still trained to the same level as those 2 years older, still taught how to use a weapon, in cases of trades they're given the same training and earning the same money as the guy a year or 2 older, yet we are to say they're not old enough or capable of voting.




Old Skier said:



			Then the same rules apply to 15 year olds. Where does it stop?
		
Click to expand...

No they don't apply to a 15 year old because they're not old enough to be employed full time or do any of the above. At 16 someone is legally old enough to become a parent in the UK yet can't put a tick in a box for a political party.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 29, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Like a lot of 16-18 year olds don't do that anyways..
		
Click to expand...

Which is why the age to vote should be raised not lowered! You need to have lived and experienced the world  ,itâ€™s inadequacies, the inequality, the issues and changes that affected you to make a decision and that will shape your future.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Which is why the age to vote should be raised not lowered! You need to have lived and experienced the world  itâ€™s inadequacies, the inequality, the issues that affected you to make a decision that will shape your future.
		
Click to expand...

So when should they start being allowed because there are no doubt people in the 20â€™s 30â€™s 40â€™s etc who also donâ€™t have a clue and prob donâ€™t care as well - and then should there be an age when itâ€™s stopped ? Should people in their 60â€™s or 70â€™s stop being allowed to vote because itâ€™s no longer their future


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Which is why the age to vote should be raised not lowered! You need to have lived and experienced the world  ,itâ€™s inadequacies, the inequality, the issues and changes that affected you to make a decision and that will shape your future.
		
Click to expand...

Oh because so many 18 year olds have .........


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You hit on a very valid point. Some parties/politicians are using this for their own ends. If this had come up mid-term, fine, but bringing up now is purely for self-serving cynical reasons. Long term there may well be some validity to it, and lets have proper scrutiny over it but now isn't the time.
		
Click to expand...

And for the same reasons, someone will propose EU citizens living here are eligible.
And Phil will argue, "yes, if they pay taxes......etc.

Country's going mad.


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Same rules apply to 15 year olds ?!

which rules ?

You canâ€™t do anything I mentioned as a 15 year so why are using that age ?
		
Click to expand...

Because 15 year olds can join the armed forces as juniors.


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2019)

Wolf said:



			It's not often LP and I agree but I'm with him on this point. Even though people still get classed as not being old enough for operational duties, they're still trained to the same level as those 2 years older, still taught how to use a weapon, in cases of trades they're given the same training and earning the same money as the guy a year or 2 older, yet we are to say they're not old enough or capable of voting.



No they don't apply to a 15 year old because they're not old enough to be employed full time or do any of the above. At 16 someone is legally old enough to become a parent in the UK yet can't put a tick in a box for a political party.
		
Click to expand...

15 year olds can earn as I have pointed out to LP


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## Wolf (Oct 29, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			15 year olds can earn as I have pointed out to LP
		
Click to expand...

But still have to be in full time education, those in the forces do not have to be so therefore are treated in every respect as an adult. Major difference that...


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2019)

Wolf said:



			It's not often LP and I agree but I'm with him on this point. Even though people still get classed as not being old enough for operational duties, they're still trained to the same level as those 2 years older, still taught how to use a weapon, in cases of trades they're given the same training and earning the same money as the guy a year or 2 older, yet we are to say they're not old enough or capable of voting.



No they don't apply to a 15 year old because they're not old enough to be employed full time or do any of the above. At 16 someone is legally old enough to become a parent in the UK yet can't put a tick in a box for a political party.
		
Click to expand...

My apologies to both LP and you, you can start the application process at 15.


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So when should they start being allowed because there are no doubt people in the 20â€™s 30â€™s 40â€™s etc who also donâ€™t have a clue and prob donâ€™t care as well - and then should there be an age when itâ€™s stopped ? Should people in their 60â€™s or 70â€™s stop being allowed to vote because itâ€™s no longer their future
		
Click to expand...

It could be argued that history shows that it is when that particular group agitate for it. Each time the franchise has been extended to a particular group, down through the centuries, its been on the back of demands by those groups.

Who is demanding it for 16/17 year olds? It is people with a vested interest in them getting the vote. Who is supporting those demands? People suckered by those calling out for it? Lets have a proper scrutinised debate during the next parliament but lets not fall for a sucker punch being delivered by someone whose only interest is where that vote will go, not is it right for them to have it. If those people had felt strongly about it before it would have been before parliament before now.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 29, 2019)

Deputy speaker Sir Lindsay Hoyle will probably not allow these amendments for younger voters and EU citizens for two reasons.
1-he is after the role of speaker when Bercow goes and will probably want to curry favour with the government and
2- The electoral commission rules state that any major changes to who should be allowed to vote should be at least 6 months before an election.


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2019)

It appears that only Austria in the EU has a lower age than 18 for voting - source, current HOC debat. The argument for lowering the age appears to come from those who wish to remain.


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## woody69 (Oct 29, 2019)

In Scotland, they allowed 16-17 year olds the vote in the independence referendum, for the explicit reason that the vote was about the[ir] future.

I don't think changing the voting age 5 weeks before an election is a good idea. Voter registration would be chaos. And probably regionally inconsistent, due to all manner of attempted abuses. 

Being politically engaged is not a prerequisite for being permitted to vote. Being a citizen or a taxpayer is all that should be required.

First men without land couldn't vote, but they were allowed to in the end and the sky didn't fall down.
Then women were allowed to vote in the end and the sky didn't fall down.
And if informed, enlightened and engaged teenagers would be allowed to vote THE SKY WON'T COME CRUMBLING DOWN.


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## Wolf (Oct 29, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Because 15 year olds can join the armed forces as juniors.
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			My apologies to both LP and you, you can start the application process at 15.
		
Click to expand...

Glad you corrected that, because to be exact it's 15yrs & 9months of age to begin application process but entry cannot be until after leaving school and turning 16.

When I went through basic there were 2 young 16 year old lads that were a lot more mature than some the older guys probably myself included.  I'm not saying now is the right time to invoke a right to vote for them as we are so far into the process but in future votes its something that needs addressing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It could be argued that history shows that it is when that particular group agitate for it. Each time the franchise has been extended to a particular group, down through the centuries, its been on the back of demands by those groups.

Who is demanding it for 16/17 year olds? It is people with a vested interest in them getting the vote. Who is supporting those demands? People suckered by those calling out for it? Lets have a proper scrutinised debate during the next parliament but lets not fall for a sucker punch being delivered by someone whose only interest is where that vote will go, not is it right for them to have it. If those people had felt strongly about it before it would have been before parliament before now.
		
Click to expand...

I donâ€™t agree with the change being rushed through to help any side whichever side it is 

I donâ€™t even know which side is demanding it but for the future once this rubbish has all been sorted itâ€™s time we allowed 16 years to have a say -I donâ€™t see what the negative can be by allowing 16years the ability to vote. 

I recall seeing on social media 16years etc and groups wanting to have a say in the EU referendum - it was going to have a bigger affect on them than a good number of other age groups. 

As for EU citizens who just live in the Uk - Nope , itâ€™s a UK vote simple as that


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

A gentle nudge :

@eucopresident
 Â· 30m
To my British friends, The EU27 has formally adopted the extension. It may be the last one. Please make the best use of this time. I also want to say goodbye to you as my mission here is coming to an end. I will keep my fingers crossed for you.


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## chrisd (Oct 29, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			2- The electoral commission rules state that any major changes to who should be allowed to vote should be at least 6 months before an election.
		
Click to expand...

..........  and for that reason alone under 18's will not be allowed to vote ðŸ‘


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 29, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			They canâ€™t smoke, they canâ€™t gamble, canâ€™t drink, treated as a minor in the eyes of the law, canâ€™t drive.
Their life experience is nil, easily manipulated and led, canâ€™t write a will, cant watch porn, canâ€™t buy a house.

Another remainer unicorn belief that the young are pro EU. Theyâ€™ll vote what their parents vote for, right after theyâ€™ve had their waffles and turkey dinosaurs.  I donâ€™t think I knew what the EU was till 2014/15, how will they? What 16 year old switches on the news after school?
		
Click to expand...

What a depressing post.

Most 16-18 year olds I know are as bright as a button. can't say the same about the 70-90 year olds I know.
As an example my 18 year old granddaughter owns her own successful business and drives a brand new Mercedes.
I also have a 89 year old relative [with a vote] who cannot tell you who the Prime Minister is.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

well said :

@IainDale
Â·
28m

If any of these amendments go through, the govt will have to pull the Bill and there'll be no election. You cannot change the franchise just like that. They complain about Boris pushing through the WAB in three days. This would be within 3 hours! A major constitutional change.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			..........  and for that reason alone under 18's will not be allowed to vote ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

So, if the HoC on an amendment vote cannot change that, then these amendments ( including the incredulous one for non U.K. CITIZENS to vote, )
are nothing more than a wrecking tactic.
Corbin stands there looking smug saying we will have an election, knowing full well, I believe, that one or more of his MPs will wreck it.
Then when the questions come, "Oh, I wanted an election of course......"

What the hell sort of people are they in that chamber tonight.


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I donâ€™t agree with the change being rushed through to help any side whichever side it is

I donâ€™t even know which side is demanding it but for the future once this rubbish has all been sorted itâ€™s time we allowed 16 years to have a say -I donâ€™t see what the negative can be by allowing 16years the ability to vote.

I recall seeing on social media 16years etc and groups wanting to have a say in the EU referendum - it was going to have a bigger affect on them than a good number of other age groups.

As for EU citizens who just live in the Uk - Nope , itâ€™s a UK vote simple as that
		
Click to expand...

How many 16 year olds have asked for it? I'd bet its not far short of none.

The negative? I'd say gullibility. A more mature, worldly wise person isn't so susceptible to propaganda and can see through spin a little easier. My reason for saying that; Labour offered the Crown Jewels to all and sundry at the last election - remember the spin around tuition fees. There's plenty of evidence out there now to show that those students that fell for it are very cynical of Labour now. Student support for Labour has halved in the 2 years.


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## IanM (Oct 29, 2019)

I hope so.

When was the last time you met a Teacher/Lecturer that wasn't left of centre?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I donâ€™t agree with the change being rushed through to help any side whichever side it is

I donâ€™t even know which side is demanding it but for the future once this rubbish has all been sorted itâ€™s time we allowed 16 years to have a say -I donâ€™t see what the negative can be by allowing 16years the ability to vote.

I recall seeing on social media 16years etc and groups wanting to have a say in the EU referendum - it was going to have a bigger affect on them than a good number of other age groups.

As for EU citizens who just live in the Uk - Nope , itâ€™s a UK vote simple as that
		
Click to expand...

Agree here aswell, whilst I agree with them having the vote long term , don't rush it through for this


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2019)

IanM said:



			I hope so.

When was the last time you met a Teacher/Lecturer that wasn't left of centre? 

Click to expand...

Last evening after work


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 29, 2019)

I donâ€™t believe 16yrs old should be given the vote, they are still minors, regardless of maturity etc and for every exceptional 16/17yrs old people quote you will probably find as many stories about 16/17yrs old dimwits.
Life is hard enough without dropping the age limit.

As for those saying 16/17yrs old Service personnel are just as well trained as those 2 yrs older, they arenâ€™t, they may have passed basic WHT or PFT but they arenâ€™t â€œfit for roleâ€ until they are aged over 18, neither will they have completed any â€œtrade trainingâ€

They also canâ€™t attend Pre-Deployment training even if they donâ€™t deploy until after their 18th birthday.

Thankfully, the Services have learnt their lesson through mistakes in the past.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

The 16/17 year old and EU nationals amendments not selected.
Funny Berko not in chair.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Chill Hugh. Did you miss the winky Smilie?
		
Click to expand...

I didn't... Comment should have been posted against another...


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			How many 16 year olds have asked for it? I'd bet its not far short of none.

The negative? I'd say gullibility. A more mature, worldly wise person isn't so susceptible to propaganda and can see through spin a little easier. My reason for saying that; Labour offered the Crown Jewels to all and sundry at the last election - remember the spin around tuition fees. There's plenty of evidence out there now to show that those students that fell for it are very cynical of Labour now. Student support for Labour has halved in the 2 years.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.byc.org.uk/campaigns/votesat16

http://www.votesat16.org/about/

http://www.ukyouthparliament.org.uk/campaign/include-16-17-year-olds-public-elections/

There are multiple groups from the 16-18 asking for people to support them getting the vote - 

And do people stop being gullible at 18 ?

I donâ€™t see age being an issue when it comes to looking at spin - the amount of rubbish being spouted by all ages since the EU ref shows that spin can affect any age


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## Fade and Die (Oct 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The 16/17 year old and EU nationals amendments not selected.
Funny Berko not in chair.
		
Click to expand...

Post 15880.ðŸ‘


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			They aren't actually old enough to understand 

Click to expand...

But old enough to vote in the Tory Party Leadership Contest


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## harpo_72 (Oct 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Perhaps you are a bit thicker than the current generation of youngsters?


Click to expand...

Harsh but a valid point.


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2019)

I still believe we should take the vote off old people.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The 16/17 year old and EU nationals amendments not selected.
Funny Berko not in chair.
		
Click to expand...

Though my understanding is that Bercow did the selection...


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.byc.org.uk/campaigns/votesat16

http://www.votesat16.org/about/

http://www.ukyouthparliament.org.uk/campaign/include-16-17-year-olds-public-elections/

There are multiple groups from the 16-18 asking for people to support them getting the vote -

And do people stop being gullible at 18 ?

I donâ€™t see age being an issue when it comes to looking at spin - the amount of rubbish being spouted by all ages since the EU ref shows that spin can affect any age
		
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There has to be a line somewhere. Why can't it remain at 18? As I said, its a debate worth having but it needs to be done sensibly and with full scrutiny. And bear in mind, that by lowering it to 16 there's a whole host of other legislation that will need to be amended. Do you want a 16 year old in adult prison? Not trying to twist it with a bit of emotional blackmail, just trying to show that the issues extend well beyond a "here's the vote, go and have some fun."


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## ger147 (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though my understanding is that Bercow did the selection...
		
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Deputy speaker selected the amendments.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

ger147 said:



			Deputy speaker selected the amendments.
		
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OK - not what I heard though.  Must have got it wrong...


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## robinthehood (Oct 29, 2019)

Age not selected , so doesn't matter.

I'd allow 16yo to vote and remove it from some people given some of the views and beliefs shown on here!


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## IanM (Oct 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I still believe we should take the vote off old people.
		
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Interesting idea, how old exactly?   And will they become tax exempt when they lose the vote?   There might be a few who would do this voluntarily on the basis that their vote is ignored anyway.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 29, 2019)

For the voting age to be reduced it will require someone with the eloquence  of Jeremy Thorpe in the house... Not sure I can think of anyone fitting that description presently...

I was fortunate to witness the debate for reducing the voting age to 18 and without JT driving the debate forward it may well have stalled...


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## drdel (Oct 29, 2019)

Only amendments are with choice of dates


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There has to be a line somewhere. Why can't it remain at 18? As I said, its a debate worth having but it needs to be done sensibly and with full scrutiny. And bear in mind, that by lowering it to 16 there's a whole host of other legislation that will need to be amended. Do you want a 16 year old in adult prison? Not trying to twist it with a bit of emotional blackmail, just trying to show that the issues extend well beyond a "here's the vote, go and have some fun."
		
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In answer to your question about prison then yes potentially depending on the crime they possible should

But why does having a vote cause so many issues ?

As a 16 year old they are allowed to leave home , get full time employment , get married , buy a home  , have children , pat tax.

What difference is there between someone at 16 who can do all the above and someone who is 18 ?

If the country can deem they are old enough to contribute financially for themselves and into society then surely they should be allowed a voice in what happens in that society

Sorry Brian this is far too mature and sensible for this thread - you ex pat you


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## Dando (Oct 29, 2019)

Red Jezza is going ask that any pregnant Labour Supporters get 2 votes and anyone flying over the uk on Election Day get a vote too


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## JamesR (Oct 29, 2019)

IanM said:



			Interesting idea, how old exactly?   And will they become tax exempt when they lose the vote?   There might be a few who would do this voluntarily on the basis that their vote is ignored anyway.
		
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Anyone who thinks nostalgia was better when they were young


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I donâ€™t believe 16yrs old should be given the vote, they are still minors, regardless of maturity etc and for every exceptional 16/17yrs old people quote you will probably find as many stories about 16/17yrs old dimwits.
Life is hard enough without dropping the age limit.

As for those saying 16/17yrs old Service personnel are just as well trained as those 2 yrs older, they arenâ€™t, they may have passed basic WHT or PFT but they arenâ€™t â€œfit for roleâ€ until they are aged over 18, neither will they have completed any â€œtrade trainingâ€

They also canâ€™t attend Pre-Deployment training even if they donâ€™t deploy until after their 18th birthday.

Thankfully, the Services have learnt their lesson through mistakes in the past.
		
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You can't use the dimwits comment because plenty of those over 18 (myself included)

Maybe voting should be linked to iq 

Fill in your vote 

Answer 5 questions .. if you don't meet the bench mark your vote goes in the shredder


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 29, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			You can't use the dimwits comment because plenty of those over 18 (myself included)

Maybe voting should be linked to iq

Fill in your vote

Answer 5 questions .. if you don't meet the bench mark your vote goes in the shredder
		
Click to expand...

People using an example of 1 outstanding 16yrs old is just as bad.


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## ger147 (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - not what I heard though.  Must have got it wrong...
		
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Hoyle is the deputy speaker...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In answer to your question about prison then yes potentially depending on the crime they possible should

But why does having a vote cause so many issues ?

As a 16 year old they are allowed to leave home , get full time employment , get married , buy a home  , have children , pat tax.

What difference is there between someone at 16 who can do all the above and someone who is 18 ?

If the country can deem they are old enough to contribute financially for themselves and into society then surely they should be allowed a voice in what happens in that society

Sorry Brian this is far too mature and sensible for this thread - you ex pat you
		
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Well we know who is part to blame for Johnson being Tory Party Leader...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...rship-vote-deadline-uk-election-boris-johnson


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

A couple of weeks back we heard MP's complaining about sitting on a Saturday. Today we hear them complaining that having an election in December isn't a good idea because its dark.

What a sad, sorry bunch of parasites many of them have been shown to be.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A couple of weeks back we heard MP's complaining about sitting on a Saturday. Today we hear them complaining that having an election in December isn't a good idea because its dark.

What a sad, sorry bunch of parasites many of them have been shown to be.
		
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They naively believe that when itâ€™s sunny we still want to talk to them ...


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - not what I heard though.  Must have got it wrong...
		
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That barber is well informed, ain't he?ðŸ˜€


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## harpo_72 (Oct 29, 2019)

The other day I had two old dears on the doorstep asking me if I would like to talk about Brexit and the Bible... I just said â€œnoâ€ and they said I was very decisive, so I thanked them and said goodbye.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Age not selected , so doesn't matter.

I'd allow 16yo to vote and remove it from some people given some of the views and beliefs shown on here!
		
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Careful, you may qualify ðŸ˜


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## robinthehood (Oct 29, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Careful, you may qualify ðŸ˜
		
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Ha ha you're nr the top ðŸ˜‰


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Age not selected , so doesn't matter.

I'd allow 16yo to vote and remove it from some people given some of the views and beliefs shown on here!
		
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What about 16yr olds that have the same beliefs and view as us on here.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			You can't use the dimwits comment because plenty of those over 18 (myself included)

Maybe voting should be linked to iq

Fill in your vote

Answer 5 questions .. if you don't meet the bench mark your vote goes in the shredder
		
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That would be a low turnout.


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## robinthehood (Oct 29, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			What about 16yr olds that have the same beliefs and view as us on here.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			That would be a low turnout.
		
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Least the decision of the vote should be by those who might understand!


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## Slime (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			A couple of weeks back we heard MP's complaining about sitting on a Saturday. Today we hear them complaining that having an election in December isn't a good idea because its dark.

*What a sad, sorry bunch of parasites many of them have been shown to be.*

Click to expand...

You sound surprised!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Age not selected , so doesn't matter.

I'd allow 16yo to vote *and remove it from some people* given some of the views and beliefs shown on here!
		
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Remainers, Vegetarians and Yogurt knitters  (guess some here apply to all )


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 29, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Least the decision of the vote should be by those who might understand!
		
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More than half the HOC donâ€™t understand so IQ is no barometer.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

Dec 12th it is, new pm on Friday 13th, what could possibly go wrong.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189277669898309633


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## ger147 (Oct 29, 2019)

So subject to House of Lords approval, a general election on 12th December.

Each to their own but I for one certainly hope someone gets a decent majority so we can end the nonsense of the last 3 and a half years and get a bloody move on in one direction or the other!!

Just my opinion, other opinions are available...


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189277669898309633

Click to expand...

I just can't believe that the 20 who voted no haven't already started canvassing for a rerun, or said that those who voted yes were deluded or ignorant. Maybe it was raining or dark. Surely they'll be running off to the EU and asking for an extension


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189282411596652545


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## harpo_72 (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I just can't believe that the 20 who voted no haven't already started canvassing for a rerun, or said that those who voted yes were deluded or ignorant. Maybe it was raining or dark. Surely they'll be running off to the EU and asking for an extension
		
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150 abstained as well ..
But letâ€™s be honest here that is a proper majority.. job done! We need that either way for the GE and then we can just crack on with our own way of dealing with the outcome.


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## chrisd (Oct 29, 2019)

So it looks like they've just voted to give us a 2nd referendum dressed up as a GE - let's get Brexit done!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189282411596652545

Click to expand...

Cacking the idea of being kicked off the gravy train.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189280419482689536


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			So it looks like they've just voted to give us a 2nd referendum dressed up as a GE - let's get Brexit done!
		
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And what happens if a single party fails to get a clear majority again ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ 

We had a bloody GE a couple years back - this is all getting pathetic


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## chrisd (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And what happens if a single party fails to get a clear majority again ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸ 

We had a bloody GE a couple years back - this is all getting pathetic
		
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Let's not get pessimistic  this soon


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## Imurg (Oct 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Let's not get pessimistic  this soon
		
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What do you mean "get"...??


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## harpo_72 (Oct 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Let's not get pessimistic  this soon
		
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Yeah save it for tomorrow


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## IainP (Oct 29, 2019)

Imurg said:



			What do you mean "get"...??
		
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He meant to write "become" ðŸ˜‰ðŸ™‚ðŸ‘


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## chrisd (Oct 29, 2019)

IainP said:



			He meant to write "become" ðŸ˜‰ðŸ™‚ðŸ‘
		
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Let's not become pessimistic  - sounds good !


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## Hobbit (Oct 29, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Let's not become pessimistic  - sounds good !
		
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very becoming of you old chap


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## larmen (Oct 29, 2019)

I donâ€™t understand the process. The government (or anyone in parliament?) needs a 2/3rd majority to call an election, but by making it into a bill it just needs one vote? Plus Lords approval?
Can anything/everything in parliament come back as a 1 vote bill?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			very becoming of you old chap
		
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Its not becoming to become pessimistic ðŸ¤”


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And what happens if a single party fails to get a clear majority again ðŸ¤¦â€â™‚ï¸

We had a bloody GE a couple years back - this is all getting pathetic
		
Click to expand...

If things don't change they remain the same. Its the basic law of the universe.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I just can't believe that the 20 who voted no haven't already started canvassing for a rerun, or said that those who voted yes were deluded or ignorant. Maybe it was raining or dark. Surely they'll be running off to the EU and asking for an extension
		
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May need a high court ruling.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 29, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189314986650324993


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## robinthehood (Oct 30, 2019)

https://www.niesr.ac.uk/media/niesr...5-cent-smaller-under-latest-brexit-deal-13975

Are there any economic forecasts that paint brexit as a good thing?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 30, 2019)

IanM said:



			I hope so.

When was the last time you met a Teacher/Lecturer that wasn't left of centre? 

Click to expand...

Yesterday, twice.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 30, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189314986650324993

Click to expand...

Seems eye bleedingly obvious to me but I am probably not as clever as Peston


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 30, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seems eye bleedingly obvious to me but I am probably not as clever as Peston
		
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Are you for Scottish independence or against it?


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://www.niesr.ac.uk/media/niesr...5-cent-smaller-under-latest-brexit-deal-13975

Are there any economic forecasts that paint brexit as a good thing?
		
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Sure are, ask Nigel.


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## Colonel Bogey (Oct 30, 2019)

And how can it not be? As long as we have OUR Â£39 BILLION quid to spend on what we want to spend it on.


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## robinthehood (Oct 30, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			And how can it not be? As long as we have OUR Â£39 BILLION quid to spend on what we want to spend it on.
		
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Eh? We still have to settle up with the EU when we leave .... I don't understand your posts.


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## robinthehood (Oct 30, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Sure are, ask Nigel.
		
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Nigel who? Havers?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2019)

larmen said:



			I donâ€™t understand the process. The government (or anyone in parliament?) needs a 2/3rd majority to call an election, but by making it into a bill it just needs one vote? Plus Lords approval?
Can anything/everything in parliament come back as a 1 vote bill?
		
Click to expand...

Seems daft doesn't it? I guess this was a simple, one line question so not a lot to debate but it does seem to make the Fixed Term Parliament Act a bit redundant.


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## adam6177 (Oct 30, 2019)

Article on Todays BBC: *Brexit deal means â€˜Â£70bn hit to UK by 2029'*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50219036 

an interesting headline I thought - so who published this report - National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) .

So I thought I'd look into who the NIESR are and how they're funded....... https://www.niesr.ac.uk/about-us  - in the "our funders" section of their own website " the European Commission "

Shock horror.


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## robinthehood (Oct 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Article on Todays BBC: *Brexit deal means â€˜Â£70bn hit to UK by 2029'*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50219036 

an interesting headline I thought - so who published this report - National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) .

So I thought I'd look into who the NIESR are and how they're funded....... https://www.niesr.ac.uk/about-us  - in the "our funders" section of their own website " the European Commission "

Shock horror.
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't make them wrong....


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2019)

larmen said:



			I donâ€™t understand the process. The government (or anyone in parliament?) needs a 2/3rd majority to call an election, *but by making it into a bill it just needs one vote?* Plus Lords approval?
Can anything/everything in parliament come back as a 1 vote bill?
		
Click to expand...

You are confused/wrong!

To call an election outside the 5 year fixed term requires, a Bill has to be raised and, to pass, that Bill requires approval of 2/3rds of _eligible_ Members. The difference between this new one and BoJo'd previous attempt is that Corbyn has agreed, so the Bill will pass. Last time, it failed to get 2/3rds because most of Labour abstained!


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You are confused/wrong!

To call an election outside the 5 year fixed term requires, a Bill has to be raised and, to pass, that Bill requires approval of 2/3rds of _eligible_ Members. The difference between this new one and BoJo'd previous attempt is that Corbyn has agreed, so the Bill will pass. Last time, it failed to get 2/3rds because most of Labour abstained!
		
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Are you sure? I thought they were all saying it needed just a simple majority as it does with any Bill. That is +1, I didn't hear 2/3rds mentioned at all. Happy to be wrong on this.


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## robinthehood (Oct 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are you sure? I thought they were all saying it needed just a simple majority as it does with any Bill. That is +1, I didn't hear 2/3rds mentioned at all. Happy to be wrong on this.
		
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You're not wrong


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Article on Todays BBC: *Brexit deal means â€˜Â£70bn hit to UK by 2029'*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50219036 

an interesting headline I thought - so who published this report - National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) .

So I thought I'd look into who the NIESR are and how they're funded....... https://www.niesr.ac.uk/about-us  - in the "our funders" section of their own website " the European Commission "

Shock horror.
		
Click to expand...

Did you bother to read any ot th rest of that section? 

Here's the sentence immediately previous to the one mentioning EU Commission.... 'The terms of our grants prohibit any involvement from funding bodies in determining or influencing content.'

You are letting your own bias infuence you attitude to a rather esteemed org - started in 1938!

Have you considered working for the Daily Wail?


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are you sure? I thought they were all saying it needed just a simple majority as it does with any Bill. That is +1, I didn't hear 2/3rds mentioned at all. Happy to be wrong on this.
		
Click to expand...

So why did the previous one fail?

Btw Bojo's bill (for El;ection on 12/12) passed by 438 to 20 - rather more than requires for either! Oppo tried to change that date to 9/12, but that was rejected (by simple majority).


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## adam6177 (Oct 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Did you bother to read any ot th rest of that section?

Here's the sentence immediately previous to the one mentioning EU Commission.... 'The terms of our grants prohibit any involvement from funding bodies in determining or influencing content.'

You are letting your own bias infuence you attitude to a rather esteemed org - started in 1938!

Have you considered working for the Daily Wail?
		
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Yes I did read it and I am not naive enough to believe that it has no influence on the outcome of their article.  you dont bite the hand that feeds you.


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Yes I did read it and I am not naive enough to believe that it has no influence on the outcome of their article.  you dont bite the hand that feeds you.
		
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In this case, I believe you are simply wrong!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://www.niesr.ac.uk/media/niesr...5-cent-smaller-under-latest-brexit-deal-13975

Are there any economic forecasts that paint brexit as a good thing?
		
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That forecast is over a 10 year period and full of uncertainty. I have never seen an accurate economic forecast over a couple of years let alone ten.


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## woody69 (Oct 30, 2019)

adam6177 said:



			Yes I did read it and I am not naive enough to believe that it has no influence on the outcome of their article.  you dont bite the hand that feeds you.
		
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Pretty much, every single economic forecast predicts a drop in the UK economy due to Brexit.

The only forecast that predicted material benefit from Brexit for the UK was the one written by the â€œEconomists for Brexitâ€ group, led by Professor Patrick Minford of Cardiff Business School, which has been widely debunked and misleading.

If you voted to leave then you have to accept that the economy will take a hit. If you are comfortable with that, then that is fine, but the economy will be hit and people will be poorer. For how long and for how much is open to interpretation like any forecast, but just because the independent group are partially funded by the EC doesn't mean they are wrong in their conclusions.

If they were the only forecast that predicted such an outcome then you could suggest there is outside interference from their contributors and perhaps something is amiss (a bit like Minford and his forecasts as an example), but they are not so as much as it pains you to accept it, they are almost certainly correct.


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## adam6177 (Oct 30, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Every single economic forecast predicts a drop in the UK economy due to Brexit.

The only forecast that predicted material benefit from Brexit for the UK was the one written by the â€œEconomists for Brexitâ€ group, led by Professor Patrick Minford of Cardiff Business School, which has been widely debunked and misleading.

If you voted to leave then you have to accept that the economy will take a hit. If you are comfortable with that, then that is fine, but the economy will be hit and people will be poorer. For how long and for how much is open to interpretation like any forecast, but just because the independent group are partially funded by the EC doesn't mean they are wrong in their conclusions.

If they were the only forecast that predicted such an outcome then you could suggest there is outside interference from their contributors and perhaps something is amiss (a bit like Minford and his forecasts as an example), but they are not so as much as it pains you to accept it, they are almost certainly correct.
		
Click to expand...


Everything you say is complete common sense and is something I am completely comfortable with.
There have been ups as well as downs during our membership of the EU and I am sure that is a trend that would continue with us outside, life is never plain sailing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So why did the previous one fail?

Btw Bojo's bill (for El;ection on 12/12) passed by 438 to 20 - rather more than requires for either! Oppo tried to change that date to 9/12, but that was rejected (by simple majority).
		
Click to expand...

He orignally tried to change it under the terms of The Fixed Parliament Act. Yesterday he brought forward an entirely new Bill, a one off that only stands for this election, on the date given. It is a Mission Imposssible Bill that self destructs after Dec 12 .

The Fixed Parliament Act is still on the Statute Book and so it takes over again after this election.


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He orignally tried to change it under the terms of The Fixed Parliament Act. Yesterday he brought forward an entirely new Bill, a one off that only stands for this election, on the date given. It is a Mission Imposssible Bill that self destructs after Dec 12 .

The Fixed Parliament Act is still on the Statute Book and so it takes over again after this election.
		
Click to expand...




Lord Tyrion said:



			He orignally tried to change it under the terms of The Fixed Parliament Act. Yesterday he brought forward an entirely new Bill, a one off that only stands for this election, on the date given. It is a Mission Imposssible Bill that self destructs after Dec 12 .

The Fixed Parliament Act is still on the Statute Book and so it takes over again after this election.
		
Click to expand...

Surely that means he'd be 'breaking the law' AGAIN then if it had not passed with (significantly more than) the 2/3rds required!


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Surely that means he's 'breaking the law' AGAIN then!
		
Click to expand...

No, because he created a new temporary law which was approved by parliament.


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## drdel (Oct 30, 2019)

With so many different factions and parties in this GE I reckon there's a fair chance we'll end up in a 'hung' situation and the mess will trundle on unless the EU are true to their word and stop agreeing to extensions.


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No, because he created a new temporary law which was approved by parliament.
		
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Ah! If that's the case, that renders the Fixed Term Act pointless!
Can you point me to anywhere documenting that law? Surely it would also have to have been approved by The Lords, something that isn't instant!


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## ger147 (Oct 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Ah! If that's the case, that renders the Fixed Term Act pointless!
Can you point me to anywhere documenting that law? Surely it would also have to have been approved by The Lords, something that isn't instant!
		
Click to expand...

It's going thru the Lords today and should receive Royal Assent shortly thereafter.

Check the HoC's website if you want to see any of the paperwork e.g. the bill.


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2019)

ger147 said:



			It's going thru the Lords today and should receive Royal Assent shortly thereafter.

Check the HoC's website if you want to see any of the paperwork e.g. the bill.
		
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ger147 said:



			It's going thru the Lords today and should receive Royal Assent shortly thereafter.

Check the HoC's website if you want to see any of the paperwork e.g. the bill.
		
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I saw the one passed 438 to 20 passed and it's going through Lards.

But can't see anything about the 'temporary' Law - that would also have to have been passed through The Lords before he was able to use it!

Happy to be proven wrong, but methinks Lord Tyrion might be guessing/twaddle-ising!


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He orignally tried to change it under the terms of The Fixed Parliament Act. Yesterday he brought forward an entirely new Bill, a one off that only stands for this election, on the date given. It is a Mission Imposssible Bill that self destructs after Dec 12 .

The Fixed Parliament Act is still on the Statute Book and so it takes over again after this election.
		
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Fixed parliament act is surely not fit for purpose if it can just be sidelined by a one line bill.


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## ger147 (Oct 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I saw the one passed 438 to 20 passed and it's going through Lards.

But can't see anything about the 'temporary' Law - that would also have to have been passed through The Lords before he was able to use it!

Happy to be proven wrong, but methinks Lord Tyrion might be guessing/twaddle-ising!
		
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The vote that passed 438 to 20 was a new bill, not a motion under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Fixed parliament act is surely not fit for purpose if it can just be sidelined by a one line bill.
		
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For me the FTPA actually seems to fulfill it's objective - stops a government calling an election whenever it suits them - they need the 2/3rds majority. 

And for the One-Line Bill - well for a government such a bill is always going to be open to amendment and the amendments may be totally at odds with government policy or that they want to achieve.  And that's why there was a risk to the government of amendments to the current One-Line bill being passed, and as a result the government then choosing/having to pull it.  One-Line bills might seem an easy way to circumvent the FTPA - but they open the door to the opposition...


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## ger147 (Oct 30, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Fixed parliament act is surely not fit for purpose if it can just be sidelined by a one line bill.
		
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A number of MP's made that very point during the debates in the HoC's, many of them wanting the act repealed.


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## ger147 (Oct 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So why did the previous one fail?

Btw Bojo's bill (for El;ection on 12/12) passed by 438 to 20 - rather more than requires for either! Oppo tried to change that date to 9/12, but that was rejected (by simple majority).
		
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The Fixed Term Parliament motion failed as under the terms of the act, the PM gets to choose the election date if he gets the votes needed to pass the motion. Once passed, there would be nothing to stop Boris setting the next election date as 1st February as an example.

The new bill includes the election date so the opposition could be certain when the election would take place and Boris wouldn't get to pick the date.


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The vote that passed 438 to 20 was a new bill, not a motion under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act.
		
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I see reference to this bill now.

And I agree with CC98! FTPA is not fit for purpose! At least not without the same 2/3rd majority as per FTPA!


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## ger147 (Oct 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I see reference to this bill now.

And I agree with CC98! Fixed Term Act is not fit for purpose!
		
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The contrary argument I suppose is at least a government has to pass new legislation to bypass the FTA, previous to that the PM could call an election whenever he/she wanted to without reference to any legislation.

So it's now more difficult than it was before for a PM to call an election, altho clearly the FTA is not fulfilling its original intention.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I saw the one passed 438 to 20 passed and it's going through Lards.

But can't see anything about the 'temporary' Law - that would also have to have been passed through The Lords before he was able to use it!

Happy to be proven wrong, but methinks Lord Tyrion might be guessing/twaddle-ising!
		
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I called it temporary but I really should have said it was specific and time relative. Temporary was the wrong word to use

See below taken from the ITV website

*The Early Parliamentary General Election Bill* must now be scrutinised in the House of Lords before it can gain Royal Assent and become law, but it is highly unlikely that the unelected Upper House would not approve it.
*The one-page Bill sets aside the provisions of the Fixed-Term Parliament's Act, meaning the Government did not require a two-thirds "super majority" to get it through.*

It is a new bill, only applicable for this election. Once the election has happened, designated date 12th Dec 2019, it is over, it is time specific.


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I called it temporary but I really should have said it was specific and time relative. Temporary was the wrong word to use

See below taken from the ITV website

*The Early Parliamentary General Election Bill* must now be scrutinised in the House of Lords before it can gain Royal Assent and become law, but it is highly unlikely that the unelected Upper House would not approve it.
*The one-page Bill sets aside the provisions of the Fixed-Term Parliament's Act, meaning the Government did not require a two-thirds "super majority" to get it through.*

It is a new bill, only applicable for this election. Once the election has happened, designated date 12th Dec 2019, it is over, it is time specific.
		
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Yep! As stated, happy to be 'disabused' of my thoughts! Do you agree that it renders the FTP At pointless/not fit for purpose? Though it was certainly passed with (just from my dodgy arithmetic) sufficient numbers to pass via FTP Act.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yep! As stated, happy to be 'disabused' of my thoughts! *Do you agree that it renders the FTP At pointless/not fit for purpose? *Though it was certainly passed with (just from my dodgy arithmetic) sufficient numbers to pass via FTP Act.
		
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I totally agree. It seems a pretty major flaw. Why even have the law if it can be so easily bypassed?


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I totally agree. It seems a pretty major flaw. Why even have the law if it can be so easily bypassed?
		
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In theory any government that has a majority in the house can call an election.
So FTPA IS USELESS .
The only thing it does is make sure thereâ€™s an end date that canâ€™t be bypassed.


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## Beezerk (Oct 30, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Pretty much, every single economic forecast predicts a drop in the UK economy due to Brexit.
		
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Out of interest, what are the economic forecasts if we were to stay within in the EU, are there actually any out there?
All I'm reading in the news is how our economy will be hit if/when we leave, there's nothing on how it would be affected should we remain.


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## woody69 (Oct 30, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Out of interest, what are the economic forecasts if we were to stay within in the EU, are there actually any out there?
All I'm reading in the news is how our economy will be hit if/when we leave, there's nothing on how it would be affected should we remain.
		
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Well the economic forecasts are basing their findings on if we stayed. If they predict a drop in the UK economy, that drop is measured from what it would be if we remained.


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## Beezerk (Oct 30, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Well the economic forecasts are basing their findings on if we stayed. If they predict a drop in the UK economy, that drop is measured from what it would be if we remained.
		
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So can you give me a link to the long term forecast of staying in the EU then? 
Purely out of interest btw, I'm not purposely trying to be difficult


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			So can you give me a link to the long term forecast of staying in the EU then?
Purely out of interest btw, I'm not purposely trying to be difficult 

Click to expand...

Without being on one side or the other these forecasts are guess work. Lick your finger, put it in the air. What none of these forecasts take into account are Ian Malcolm's view of Chaos Theory (might have lifted that from Juarssic Park ). In effect, banking collapse, housing collapse, who saw them coming? Germany is sticking right now, France not doing so well. Who knows how they will go? US and China trade war, will that escalate or not? How will that impact? Will oil prices go up or down? Loads and loads of things that get thrown into the mix and impact.

Economic forecasts are like sales forecasts, they are guesses. Guesses based on what could and may happen but ultimately guesses. Take all with a very large pinch of salt and don't believe anyone that uses these forecasts as gospel (you may tell that I have little faith in forecasts of all types)


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## woody69 (Oct 30, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			So can you give me a link to the long term forecast of staying in the EU then?
Purely out of interest btw, I'm not purposely trying to be difficult 

Click to expand...

Take a look at any forecast and they take the baseline for staying in the EU.

With regards to long-term forecast, it really depends what you mean by "long-term". I'm not sure any forecast over a few years is likely to be particularly accurate. It may identify a certain trend, but it's likely to be either too pessimistic or optimistic due to the number of factors that can influence the economy.

The NIESR Forecast that has come out recently uses the baseline for continued EU membership and attempts to go out to 2029 - https://www.niesr.ac.uk/media/niesr...5-cent-smaller-under-latest-brexit-deal-13975 

The IFS produced a report for the next 3 years, with "Never Brexit" as a scenario - https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14421


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## Hobbit (Oct 30, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			So can you give me a link to the long term forecast of staying in the EU then?
Purely out of interest btw, I'm not purposely trying to be difficult 

Click to expand...

Just a thought. The EU forecast didn't predict the problems Germany is currently experiencing. Think they are officially in a recession after a 3rd qtr of negative growth, whatever that is.


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## drdel (Oct 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Just a thought. The EU forecast didn't predict the problems Germany is currently experiencing. Think they are officially in a recession after a 3rd qtr of negative growth, whatever that is.
		
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That's correct.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Out of interest, what are the economic forecasts if we were to stay within in the EU, are there actually any out there?
All I'm reading in the news is how our economy will be hit if/when we leave, there's nothing on how it would be affected should we remain.
		
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Maybe a look at the economic forecasts provided by various chancellors of the exchequer over the lat few years.  Maybe from before the referendum?

I'm wondering what economic forecasts our current chancellor used when preparing the budget Johnson has just had to pull.  Did he just make them up or did he rely upon, and trust, the forecasts being provided to him by the Treasury and other recognised expert economic advisers.

Any forecast will be provided with confidence intervals - if the confidence interval is tight then we can pretty much trust it's going to be about right - if the CI is wide - then that suggests too much uncertainty about key factors that influence the overall estimates - and/or too much uncertainly in the accuracy of the measurements that are used to inform and adjust estimates and uncertainty of the key factors driving the overall estimate.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 30, 2019)

The French want Brexit completed either way because of the impact to their economy and I suspect the Germans are enjoying it as well.


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## Hobbit (Oct 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe a look at the economic forecasts provided by various chancellors of the exchequer over the lat few years.  Maybe from before the referendum?

I'm wondering what economic forecasts our current chancellor used when preparing the budget Johnson has just had to pull.  Did he just make them up or did he rely upon, and trust, the forecasts being provided to him by the Treasury and other recognised expert economic advisers.

Any forecast will be provided with confidence intervals - if the confidence interval is tight then we can pretty much trust it's going to be about right - if the CI is wide - then that suggests too much uncertainty about key factors that influence the overall estimates - and/or too much uncertainly in the accuracy of the measurements that are used to inform and adjust estimates and uncertainty of the key factors driving the overall estimate.
		
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If we were still in the era of double digit growth, that holy grail, the accuracy tolerance would have a decent margin. No one, as we're seeing from Germany at present, is immune from bumps in the road.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If we were still in the era of double digit growth, that holy grail, the accuracy tolerance would have a decent margin. No one, as we're seeing from Germany at present, is immune from bumps in the road.
		
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In the modelling you prefer uncertainly to eventually be quite tight around the main thing you are estimating - but not that tight that your estimates can't respond to measurements that show your estimate to be more significantly in error.  You need your uncertainly around your influencing factors to be consistent with the likely accuracy of the measurements you are using to calibrate your estimates of your influencing factors.  So if a measurement shows something unexpected then the estimates of the influencing factors that the measurement impacts have to be able to move - and when they move your main output must have room to move.

Problems happen when something really unexpected happens and your modelling is in or approaching steady state.

I bring to your attention m'lud a radar altimeter measurement of ground clearance over a flat field that was suddenly 2m different from all preceding and what was expected for it (see also German economic growth).  My colleague could only see a cow in the middle of the field...and so deduced that the measurement was off the back of the cow...

Not a very good analysis our boss thought...it did muck up our modelling and predictions.  And so we look to Germany


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## JamesR (Oct 30, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Fixed parliament act is surely not fit for purpose if it can just be sidelined by a one line bill.
		
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Problem is that May had a majority when she came in as PM, then called for an election and lost the majority.
Had she left it as it was, wouldnâ€™t we be having an election next year anyway?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Problem is that May had a majority when she came in as PM, then called for an election and lost the majority.
Had she left it as it was, wouldnâ€™t we be having an election next year anyway?
		
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But did she. The likes of Grieve, Clark, Gauke etc were still there to frustrate Brexit.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But did she. The likes of Grieve, Clark, Gauke etc were still there to frustrate Brexit.
		
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Perhaps that was a driver for an election.. she needed more support.
But it did not exist.


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## robinthehood (Oct 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But did she. The likes of Grieve, Clark, Gauke etc were still there to frustrate Brexit.
		
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Yes she did. Then spanked it away on a whim .


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes she did. Then spanked it away on a whim .
		
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Her majority wasn't big enough due to the number of remainers, especially in her cabinet. Also the number of leavers against her deal.


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## robinthehood (Oct 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Her majority wasn't big enough due to the number of remainers, especially in her cabinet. Also the number of leavers against her deal.
		
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Ha ha  , she thought she could convert her popularity into seats and it backfired massively. Poorly advised.
But you keep blaming anyone and everyone expect those who's fault this is.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Ha ha  , she thought she could convert her popularity into seats and it backfired massively. Poorly advised.
But you keep blaming anyone and everyone expect those who's fault this is.
		
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Oof! Who did I blame?  You are the one blaming May , I've made no comment other than she was struggling to get a majority with the number against her in her own party.  Try reading my post and clearing the fog from between your ears before replying.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			There has to be a line somewhere. Why can't it remain at 18? As I said, its a debate worth having but it needs to be done sensibly and with full scrutiny. And bear in mind, that by lowering it to 16 there's a whole host of other legislation that will need to be amended. Do you want a 16 year old in adult prison? Not trying to twist it with a bit of emotional blackmail, just trying to show that the issues extend well beyond a "here's the vote, go and have some fun."
		
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Thought I would just add this that appeared on my timeline


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189196885455757313
Could only hope more of all ages where like her @Hobbit


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## robinthehood (Oct 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oof! Who did I blame?  You are the one blaming May , I've made no comment other than she was struggling to get a majority with the number against her in her own party.  Try reading my post and clearing the fog from between your ears before replying.
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thought I would just add this that appeared on my timeline


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189196885455757313
Could only hope more of all ages where like her @Hobbit

Click to expand...

Strange that the Labour leader is keen on this since he was the one that stated a 16 year old doesn't know what they are doing when talking about the young 16 year old that run away to be a terrorist bride.


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## Hobbit (Oct 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thought I would just add this that appeared on my timeline


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189196885455757313
Could only hope more of all ages where like her @Hobbit

Click to expand...

Anecdotal evidence is as much use as a choc fireguard. And that's why I posted, several times, that reasoned debate is required, including all the knock on legislation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Strange that the Labour leader is keen on this since he was the one that stated a 16 year old doesn't know what they are doing when talking about the young 16 year old that run away to be a terrorist bride.
		
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Weird how the tories arenâ€™t when they allow 15yrs old to vote for tory leader.


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## robinthehood (Oct 30, 2019)

Good to see Boris still talking bullshit 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50238351


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Weird how the tories arenâ€™t when they allow 15yrs old to vote for tory leader.
		
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If you can't see the difference between a private organization and a public wide GE then there's nothing I can really counter with.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			If you can't see the difference between a private organization and a public wide GE then there's nothing I can really counter with.
		
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Me, you and everybody else get to vote for our â€œLocalâ€ MP in a GE, this summer 15yr oldâ€™s got to vote for a PM to run the Country, if you canâ€™t see the hypocrisy from the tories in that then you need to have a rethink!


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Me, you and everybody else get to vote for our â€œLocalâ€ MP in a GE, this summer 15yr oldâ€™s got to vote for a PM to run the Country, if you canâ€™t see the hypocrisy from the tories in that then you need to have a rethink!
		
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So what's your argument for the way Labour elect their leader and the LibDems elect their leader. You should run for parliament.


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## USER1999 (Oct 31, 2019)

I love that the BBC web site has an article on how to register to vote. Really? It isn't that difficult.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Me, you and everybody else get to vote for our â€œLocalâ€ MP in a GE, this summer 15yr oldâ€™s got to vote for a PM to run the Country, if you canâ€™t see the hypocrisy from the tories in that then you need to have a rethink!
		
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Having, in the past, been a member of both parties (not anymore) I do like the way that you support the man who has turned many supporters off voting Labour. Unfortunately all 4 main parties in the commons have turned into extreme organizations.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			I love that the BBC web site has an article on how to register to vote. Really? It isn't that difficult.
		
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Sorry but unless someone knows how to register how would they know how difficult it is or not

They could Google it, which now might come up with the BBC website 

Hats off to them for telling people how, if only 100 people register and only 5 more people vote because of it that's 5 more people having their say


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			I love that the BBC web site has an article on how to register to vote. Really? It isn't that difficult.
		
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And there will still be those who moan that they were excluded from voting.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but unless someone knows how to register how would they know how difficult it is or not

They could Google it, which now might come up with the BBC website 

Hats off to them for telling people how, if only 100 people register and only 5 more people vote because of it that's 5 more people having their say
		
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Or as many live in houses/flats etc, they will have received a registration form through the letter box.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			So what's your argument for the way Labour elect their leader and the LibDems elect their leader. You should run for parliament.
		
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I donâ€™t think, as stated, any under 18â€™s should have the vote, but choosing when they can and when they canâ€™t to suit your own purposes is wrong.
members of the tory party who were under 18 had a direct impact on the lives of every other person in this country this summer, to then say they wouldnâ€™t understand what they are voting for in a GE is a joke.
Why do you need my opinion on Labour and lib dems? Itâ€™s no different to my feelings about the tory party except the other 2 tried to drop the age. Still wrong though imo.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Having, in the past, been a member of both parties (not anymore) I do like the way that you support the man who has turned many supporters off voting Labour. Unfortunately all 4 main parties in the commons have turned into extreme organizations.
		
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Iâ€™m not supporting the man, I canâ€™t stand him and want him gone, I do support the Labour Party though, I can see past Corbyn and support the policies.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Or as many live in houses/flats etc, they will have received a registration form through the letter box.
		
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How many these get lost with all the junk that comes through the post 

Younger generation take more notice of websites than most print 

World's changing 

Doesn't cost anything to put that article up there 

Still send it all out as normal

Like I said if it reaches just 5 more people it's a good thing


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™m not supporting the man, I canâ€™t stand him and want him gone, I do support the Labour Party though, I can see past Corbyn and support the policies.
		
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With you here Paul 

Corbyn isnt a leader , I do respect how he seems to be the only mp who always sticks to his guns about things. But he isn't a leader at all


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 31, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			I love that the BBC web site has an article on how to register to vote. Really? It isn't that difficult.
		
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They are a public service braodcaster, it is part of their remit to 'educate and inform'. It's not the worst crime is it?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			With you here Paul

Corbyn isnt a leader , I do respect how he seems to be the only mp who always sticks to his guns about things. But he isn't a leader at all
		
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What I find funny is that Corbyn was elected by a Democratic vote of Labour members, (and all those tories who thought it hilarious to join the Labour Party to vote for him) I voted for Andy Burnham, now, just like the Brexit vote I respect the result, people go mad on here about Democracy and respecting it even when you donâ€™t get the result you wanted.
So Iâ€™m not going to turn away from Labour because â€œIâ€ lost.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			If you can't see the difference between a private organization and a public wide GE then there's nothing I can really counter with.
		
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A "private organisation" sums up team tory perfectly ðŸ˜‰ ...


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			How many these get lost with all the junk that comes through the post 

Younger generation take more notice of websites than most print 

World's changing 

Doesn't cost anything to put that article up there 

Still send it all out as normal

Like I said if it reaches just 5 more people it's a good thing
		
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The world is changing for sure...

Not always necessarily for the better...

Certainly I'd be, in light of recent 'fake news' stories, highly distrusting of any political message on social media sites...


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## USER1999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They are a public service braodcaster, it is part of their remit to 'educate and inform'. It's not the worst crime is it?
		
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Why now? Why not before the refendum, or the last GE, or the one before that? 

I have spent the last 4 months trying to convince Bournemouth that I can't register there. It is harder to not be registered than it is to register. 
If I remember rightly, when you reach 18 you get a letter telling you to register, and how to.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			The world is changing for sure...

Not always necessarily for the better...

Certainly I'd be, in light of recent 'fake news' stories, highly distrusting of any political message on social media sites...
		
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That's why twitter are banning political adverts


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Why now? Why not before the refendum, or the last GE, or the one before that? 

I have spent the last 4 months trying to convince Bournemouth that I can't register there. It is harder to not be registered than it is to register. 
If I remember rightly, when you reach 18 you get a letter telling you to register, and how to.
		
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They do it every time? Just will be higher up the hit list ATM


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 31, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Why now? Why not before the refendum, or the last GE, or the one before that?

I have spent the last 4 months trying to convince Bournemouth that I can't register there. It is harder to not be registered than it is to register.
If I remember rightly, when you reach 18 you get a letter telling you to register, and how to.
		
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Why now, because it is as topical as it can be. I am sure they will have done it for the referendum and the last GE as well.

You actually get a letter a few months after your 17th birthday, I know because my daughter has just had one, but people move around, they don't fill it in etc. 

I agree that it is simple to register but I don't see any harm in the BBC putting a link up and as I mentioned that is part of their role.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 31, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			That's why twitter are banning political adverts
		
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All social media should .. but must be bloody hard to police unless people report it directly


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			All social media should .. but must be bloody hard to police unless people report it directly
		
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I believe it was political adverts like posts by MPs and adverts by the parties will be banned 

I'll find the article


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			I believe it was political adverts like posts by MPs and adverts by the parties will be banned 

I'll find the article
		
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https://www.aljazeera.com/ajimpact/...-advertisements-platform-191030202650906.html


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## drdel (Oct 31, 2019)

There is a thread on the election !!


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## robinthehood (Oct 31, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Why now? Why not before the refendum, or the last GE, or the one before that?

I have spent the last 4 months trying to convince Bournemouth that I can't register there. It is harder to not be registered than it is to register.
If I remember rightly, when you reach 18 you get a letter telling you to register, and how to.
		
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No , you can go on the electoral  register at 16.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 31, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189850201772744705


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## Foxholer (Oct 31, 2019)

drdel said:



			There is a thread on the election !!
		
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Pushing 'the proverbial' up a hill trying to keep the two topics separate!

This election is ONLY ABOUT BREXIT currently!

And a gamble by BoJo to get a sufficient majority to get it through (one way or another) before actually gettiing on with 'his program'!

Btw. The fact that UK hasn't really suffered while Government has been focused pretty much 100% on Brexit does seem to suggest significant savings could be made by scrapping Westminster and using something along the lines of The Civil Service to run the country (as it does now) using referendums to amend policy!


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 31, 2019)

Just waiting for the â€œRussian collusionâ€ or  â€œGeorge Soros interferenceâ€ in the media afterwards.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			That's why twitter are banning political adverts
		
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But unfortunately not politicians spreading their lies on it.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			But unfortunately not politicians spreading their lies on it.
		
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They do that in the media and in the commons so it would be hard to ban


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## Mudball (Oct 31, 2019)

Pure genius at work again.. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189855825701068800


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## drdel (Oct 31, 2019)

I see Corbyn is saying Labour will sort Brexit in 6 months. EU said no more extension. Interesting!


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## Dando (Oct 31, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Corbyn is saying Labour will sort Brexit in 6 months. EU said no more extension. Interesting!
		
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Didn't Thornberry say they would negotiate a better deal and then campaign to vote against it


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 31, 2019)

Dando said:



			Didn't Thornberry say they would negotiate a better deal and then campaign to vote against it
		
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I think that is genuinely their stance on Brexit. No confusion there . It will cost them votes, people want clarity on issues.


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## drdel (Oct 31, 2019)

Dando said:



			Didn't Thornberry say they would negotiate a better deal and then campaign to vote against it
		
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Yup, add in another referendum, done and dusted in 6 months.


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## Mudball (Oct 31, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think that is genuinely their stance on Brexit. No confusion there . It will cost them votes, people want clarity on issues.
		
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i dont see the confusion
1) Negotiate a deal
2) Hold an informed referendum - it the Labour Deal or Remain.   

That way the votes would know what they are voting for in the Referendum rather a blind one based on lies and political self preservation.  I think JC needs a better communication director.  If only DomCum changed his mind and voted to Remain


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think that is genuinely their stance on Brexit. No confusion there . It will cost them votes, people want clarity on issues.
		
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Thatâ€™s not how I understand their position. But then Iâ€™m not motivated to mock it I suppose ðŸ˜‰


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## drdel (Oct 31, 2019)

Mudball said:



			i dont see the confusion
1) Negotiate a deal
2) Hold an informed referendum - it the Labour Deal or Remain. 

That way the votes would know what they are voting for in the Referendum rather a blind one based on lies and political self preservation.  I think JC needs a better communication director.  If only DomCum changed his mind and voted to Remain
		
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Do you think France and EU will agree to restart


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

drdel said:



			Do you think France and EU will agree to restart
		
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Well, most Brexiteers on here were absolutely adamant that they would reopen the negotiations last time they said they wouldnâ€™t. Whatâ€™s changed?


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## drdel (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Well, most Brexiteers on here were absolutely adamant that they would reopen the negotiations last time they said they wouldnâ€™t. Whatâ€™s changed?
		
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Negotiate deal with a UK team who have declared they will vote against it: why would the EU take it seriously?


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

drdel said:



			Negotiate deal with a UK team who have declared they will vote against it: why would the EU take it seriously?
		
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Because itâ€™s a well defined end route, rather than the current situation whereby the fallback is a No Deal scenario that the EU have stated they donâ€™t want. Itâ€™s exactly what they want. Why wouldnâ€™t they go for it?


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## spongebob59 (Oct 31, 2019)

Imagine how hilarious a Corbyn renegotiation with the EU would be. â€œLook chaps I know Boris negotiated that all these powers return to Britain. Iâ€™m looking to give most of them back to you.â€ The EU wouldnâ€™t be able to believe their luck.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Thatâ€™s not how I understand their position. But then Iâ€™m not motivated to mock it I suppose ðŸ˜‰
		
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I think it is a confused position and in politics that is foolish, particularly on the key issue of the day. How can you have credibility when you are going to negotiate a deal that you are likely to then vote against when it comes to the Commons, or maybe not? If you ask a Labour MP whether the official policy is to enact Brexit or campaign to remain they will not be able to tell you. They will talk around the subject but they can not give a simple 1 line answer. That is certainly the case for every MP I have seen interviewed for the last few weeks.

How will it go when knocking on doors? Voters don't want a 5 minute explanation of a confused policy, they want simplicity and you have seconds to capture their attention. Every other party going in to this election is clear about Brexit. The fact that Labour are not will cost them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Dando said:



			Didn't Thornberry say they would negotiate a better deal and then campaign to vote against it
		
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No, she said the PARTY would negotiate a deal and SHE would vote against it, how is that any different to tory MPâ€™s who voted against borisâ€™s deal?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, she said the PARTY would negotiate a deal and SHE would vote against it, how is that any different to tory MPâ€™s who voted against borisâ€™s deal?
		
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She is the party's Foreign Sec, one of the big jobs. She can't stay in that role and openly vote against her own govt on such an important issue. To say upfront she would vote against it is pretty major as well. When Ministers voted against TM and BJ they tended to resign.

 I'm not sure she is on her own in saying she would vote against it either, it was very woolly all round.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think it is a confused position and in politics that is foolish, particularly on the key issue of the day. How can you have credibility when you are going to negotiate a deal that you are likely to then vote against when it comes to the Commons, or maybe not? If you ask a Labour MP whether the official policy is to enact Brexit or campaign to remain they will not be able to tell you. They will talk around the subject but they can not give a simple 1 line answer. That is certainly the case for every MP I have seen interviewed for the last few weeks.

How will it go when knocking on doors? Voters don't want a 5 minute explanation of a confused policy, they want simplicity and you have seconds to capture their attention. Every other party going in to this election is clear about Brexit. The fact that Labour are not will cost them.
		
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I may be completely wrong (I frequently am), but that's a misrepresentation of the position. As far as I can remember, they said they would negotiate a "better" deal, then hold a referendum on that deal vs revoke A50. The Referendum would be legally binding this time. Once the result of the referendum was known, they would enact it.

So, either Labour's negotiated deal, or revoke Article 50. Seems fairly clear and logical to me..

Edit...From their manifesto....

*What will happen in a second referendum?*
A second referendum wonâ€™t be a re-run of 2016. This time the choice will be between leaving with a sensible deal or remaining in the European Union.
A Labour government will negotiate a sensible deal within three months of being elected. It will be based on the things we have long advocated and discussed with the EU; trade unions and businesses, including a new customs union, a close single market relationship and guarantees of rights and protections.
Within six months of being elected we will put that deal to a public vote, alongside remain. Two clear options, both agreed with the EU â€“ no false promises or bluster. Labour will then carry out whatever the people decide.


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## woody69 (Oct 31, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Imagine how hilarious a Corbyn renegotiation with the EU would be. â€œLook chaps I know Boris negotiated that all these powers return to Britain. Iâ€™m looking to give most of them back to you.â€ The EU wouldnâ€™t be able to believe their luck.
		
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All these powers?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			She is the party's Foreign Sec, one of the big jobs. She can't stay in that role and openly vote against her own govt on such an important issue. To say upfront she would vote against it is pretty major as well. When Ministers voted against TM and BJ they tended to resign.

I'm not sure she is on her own in saying she would vote against it either, it was very woolly all round.
		
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What! How many tories voted against TM after 2 years of negotiations.

Come on mate, some MPâ€™s want to remain at any cost and some leave at any cost.
An MP is honest and we still have a go!
She would be voting in the referendum to stay.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I may be completely wrong (I frequently am), but that's a misrepresentation of the position. As far as I can remember, they said they would negotiate a "better" deal, then hold a referendum on that deal vs revoke A50. The Referendum would be legally binding this time. Once the result of the referendum was known, they would enact it.

So, either Labour's negotiated deal, or revoke Article 50. Seems fairly clear and logical to me..
		
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I don't think you are at all wrong. The missing bit for me, and this is where I could be wrong, is that during the referendum on their deal what would their stance be? It is a fair question as surely the whole Labour team will not sit quietly and say nothing during the referendum. The initial responses I was hearing was that a number would vote against it, JC has been particularly mysterious about it. There lies the confusion for me, and many Labour MP's I've seen interviewed since.

If the negotiating team want to stay in the EU what sort of deal will get put forward? JC is trying to appease the Labour leave voters as well as the remain ones. I'm not sure that is possible to do.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What! How many tories voted against TM after 2 years of negotiations.

Come on mate, some MPâ€™s want to remain at any cost and some leave at any cost.
An MP is honest and we still have a go!
She would be voting in the referendum to stay.
		
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You can't remain in a cabinet and vote against the govt. If the govt gives a free vote that is fine but if they whip the vote then they have to go if they vote against. All of the MP's voting against the TM deal were outside of govt.

I have no problem in ET saying what she did but it makes a mockery of trying to negotiate a deal that is credible if the FS wont ever entertain it. As I mentioned to Bluewolf, Labour are trying to appeal to both camps and I am not sure that can work. I don't like Jo Swinson's politics or her manner but I think the LibDems will do well because she has set out a clear stance for her party. I can see them picking up a lot of Labour voters this election.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think you are at all wrong. The missing bit for me, and this is where I could be wrong, is that during the referendum on their deal what would their stance be? It is a fair question as surely the whole Labour team will not sit quietly and say nothing during the referendum. The initial responses I was hearing was that a number would vote against it, JC has been particularly mysterious about it. There lies the confusion for me, and many Labour MP's I've seen interviewed since.

If the negotiating team want to stay in the EU what sort of deal will get put forward? JC is trying to appease the Labour leave voters as well as the remain ones. I'm not sure that is possible to do.
		
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It doesn't matter what their position would be. They're not voting on it. The people are voting. I would be more than happy for every MP to campaign on his/her preferred option, whatever that may be..

With regards to the abilities of the negotiating team to put together a great deal. I'm absolutely sure that the required people can be professional enough to carry out the negotiation. Give the team a set of "red lines" and allow them to negotiate a deal, then let the people vote on it..

I genuinely think that certain individuals who are pretending not to understand the Labour position are either being disingenuous or.......... Well, I'd rather not say...


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## drdel (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			It doesn't matter what their position would be. They're not voting on it. The people are voting. I would be more than happy for every MP to campaign on his/her preferred option, whatever that may be..

With regards to the abilities of the negotiating team to put together a great deal. I'm absolutely sure that the required people can be professional enough to carry out the negotiation. Give the team a set of "red lines" and allow them to negotiate a deal, then let the people vote on it..

I genuinely think that certain individuals who are pretending not to understand the Labour position are either being disingenuous or.......... Well, I'd rather not say... 

Click to expand...

I was merely pointing to the stupidity of the 6 months. The Electoral Commission need 12 weeks, after the legislation has gone through. Thats all assuming there is a set of agreed WA options with the EU!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			It doesn't matter what their position would be. They're not voting on it. The people are voting. I would be more than happy for every MP to campaign on his/her preferred option, whatever that may be..

With regards to the abilities of the negotiating team to put together a great deal. I'm absolutely sure that the required people can be professional enough to carry out the negotiation. Give the team a set of "red lines" and allow them to negotiate a deal, then let the people vote on it..

I genuinely think that certain individuals who are pretending not to understand the Labour position are either being disingenuous or.......... Well, I'd rather not say... 

Click to expand...

If that is aimed at me, I understand the position, I just don't think it is clear and clean. Voters like clear policies, they like simple lines. At the moment you have Cons = Leave, LibDems, SNP = Remain, Labour = ?

During this election there will be plenty of times voters will get asked about it and I bet more often than not they will not be sure about it. You can argue about whether they should be able to work it out but it doesn't work that way. A confused message will fail.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

drdel said:



			I was merely pointing to the stupidity of the 6 months. The Electoral Commission need 12 weeks, after the legislation has gone through. Thats all assuming there is a set of agreed WA options with the EU!!
		
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I know.. It's ambitious, maybe even unlikely.. A bit like expecting Parliament to discuss and agree a withdrawal agreement in 3 days..


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If that is aimed at me, I understand the position, I just don't think it is clear and clean. Voters like clear policies, they like simple lines. At the moment you have Cons = Leave, LibDems, SNP = Remain, Labour = ?

During this election there will be plenty of times voters will get asked about it and I bet more often than not they will not be sure about it. You can argue about whether they should be able to work it out but it doesn't work that way. A confused message will fail.
		
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Let's agree to disagree then. I understood it completely the very first time i read it. And I'm far from the brightest bulb in the box.. It's as clear as anyone wants it to be I suppose..


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I may be completely wrong (I frequently am), but that's a misrepresentation of the position. As far as I can remember, they said they would negotiate a "better" deal, then hold a referendum on that deal vs revoke A50. The Referendum would be legally binding this time. Once the result of the referendum was known, they would enact it.

So, either Labour's negotiated deal, or revoke Article 50. Seems fairly clear and logical to me..

Edit...From their manifesto....

*What will happen in a second referendum?*
A second referendum wonâ€™t be a re-run of 2016. This time the choice will be between leaving with a sensible deal or remaining in the European Union.
A Labour government will negotiate a sensible deal within three months of being elected. It will be based on the things we have long advocated and discussed with the EU; trade unions and businesses, including a new customs union, a close single market relationship and guarantees of rights and protections.
Within six months of being elected we will put that deal to a public vote, alongside remain. Two clear options, both agreed with the EU â€“ no false promises or bluster. Labour will then carry out whatever the people decide.
		
Click to expand...


Is this from there latest manifesto, strange as I didn't think Labour policy committee has met yet. My understanding was that Labour would offer a referendum but would , as a party, campaign on remain.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Is this from there latest manifesto, strange as I didn't think Labour policy committee has met yet. My understanding was that Labour would offer a referendum but would , as a party, campaign on remain.
		
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It's from their own official website and is the basis for their manifesto..

And, as I stated before. It's irrelevant what they would campaign for. They could campaign to replace the European Union with 3 dogs and an old man clutching a bottle of Buckie.. What they've promised is to hold a 2nd referendum. One that is legally binding and has only 2 options. The new deal or revoke Art50. Then they would act on it.. It is very very simple..


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## harpo_72 (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I may be completely wrong (I frequently am), but that's a misrepresentation of the position. As far as I can remember, they said they would negotiate a "better" deal, then hold a referendum on that deal vs revoke A50. The Referendum would be legally binding this time. Once the result of the referendum was known, they would enact it.

So, either Labour's negotiated deal, or revoke Article 50. Seems fairly clear and logical to me..

Edit...From their manifesto....

*What will happen in a second referendum?*
A second referendum wonâ€™t be a re-run of 2016. This time the choice will be between leaving with a sensible deal or remaining in the European Union.
A Labour government will negotiate a sensible deal within three months of being elected. It will be based on the things we have long advocated and discussed with the EU; trade unions and businesses, including a new customs union, a close single market relationship and guarantees of rights and protections.
Within six months of being elected we will put that deal to a public vote, alongside remain. Two clear options, both agreed with the EU â€“ no false promises or bluster. Labour will then carry out whatever the people decide.
		
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Itâ€™s a very sensible proposal but as a remainer I would not bother.
Based on the amount of leave deals I have heard .. all have failed, to better our current position or have been completely imaginary. 
So it feels like they will not get any thing out of Europe of note.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			It's from their own official website and is the basis for their manifesto..

And, as I stated before. It's irrelevant what they would campaign for. They could campaign to replace the European Union with 3 dogs and an old man clutching a bottle of Buckie.. What they've promised is to hold a 2nd referendum. One that is legally binding and has only 2 options. The new deal or revoke Art50. Then they would act on it.. It is very very simple..
		
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Nice to see you back mate.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Nice to see you back mate.

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Cheers bud. Might only be a fleeting visit, but I do miss the place sometimes. The debate is usually stimulating and on the right side of the line. Usually ðŸ˜‚


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Cheers bud. Might only be a fleeting visit, but I do miss the place sometimes. The debate is usually stimulating and on the right side of the line. Usually ðŸ˜‚
		
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99% of the Forum is all good, itâ€™s only when me and the other 1% misbehave itâ€™s frustrating.


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## bluewolf (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			99% of the Forum is all good, itâ€™s only when me and the other 1% misbehave itâ€™s frustrating.

Click to expand...

Iâ€™ve been just as guilty as anyone mate. Itâ€™s easy to get dragged in to a stupid argument just because someone (mystifyingly) doesnâ€™t share your well thought out opinions. ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰


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## 2blue (Oct 31, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			99% of the Forum is all good, itâ€™s only when me and the other 1% misbehave itâ€™s frustrating.

Click to expand...




bluewolf said:



			Iâ€™ve been just as guilty as anyone mate. Itâ€™s easy to get dragged in to a stupid argument just because someone (mystifyingly) doesnâ€™t share your well thought out opinions. ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‰
		
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So, so easy with so many Bumberling-Boris-Believers on this forum.... must be the air down sarth.ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤ª


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## bobmac (Nov 1, 2019)

It's finally here, BREXIT DAY and we're now free of the EU shackles.
Happy days.








What?
What do you mean we haven't left yet?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 1, 2019)

bobmac said:



			It's finally here, BREXIT DAY and we're now free of the EU shackles.
Happy days.








What?
What do you mean we haven't left yet?   

Click to expand...

Dead in a ditch mate, dead in a ditch.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Dead in a ditch mate, dead in a ditch.
		
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I wondered when. I refer you to post 15398. 
You having a go at Boris for not keeping his promise is disingenuous to say the least.
You know very well why he could not do so. He was stitched up.


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I wondered when. I refer you to post 15398.
You having a go at Boris for not keeping his promise is disingenuous to say the least.
You know very well why he could not do so. He was stitched up.
		
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Then he shouldn't have promised something that wasn't in his power to deliver, should he?

It's like me promising to win the lottery, then blaming everyone else that buys a ticket when I don't.. 

He lied.. Again.. And again.. (ad infinitum)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Then he shouldn't have promised something that wasn't in his power to deliver, should he?

It's like me promising to win the lottery, then blaming everyone else that buys a ticket when I don't..

He lied.. Again.. And again.. (ad infinitum)
		
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Iâ€™ve got a ticket for tonight mate, One million pounds coming your way when I win the jackpot.


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve got a ticket for tonight mate, One million pounds coming your way when I win the jackpot. 

Click to expand...

That's as good as a written contract mate..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			That's as good as a written contract mate.. 

Click to expand...

My word is my bond.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Then he shouldn't have promised something that wasn't in his power to deliver, should he?

It's like me promising to win the lottery, then blaming everyone else that buys a ticket when I don't.. 

He lied.. Again.. And again.. (ad infinitum)
		
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That analogy doesn't work. Other people buying tickets doesn't affect your chances of winning. 

Would work better if you promised to win the lottery but others stopped you from buying a ticket.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Then he shouldn't have promised something that wasn't in his power to deliver, should he?

It's like me promising to win the lottery, then blaming everyone else that buys a ticket when I don't..

He lied.. Again.. And again.. (ad infinitum)
		
Click to expand...

Spot on. I do find it bizarre that the Tory strategy to start with is to blame Labour for not enacting Brexit when, to steal from a twitter post, it was the ERG who blocked it the first three times, for not being Brexity enough, the DUP the fourth time and Johnson that pulled the bill the fifth time, after his deal was approved in principle, because he didn't want it scrutinised. Those are ALL Brexiters.

It's like Tories, have a look a bit closer to home for the Brexit blockers if that is the topic you want to lead on.  How about leading on the economy as that is traditionally your strong suit.


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That analogy doesn't work. Other people buying tickets doesn't affect your chances of winning.

Would work better if you promised to win the lottery but others stopped you from buying a ticket.
		
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And this post encapsulates exactly why I missed this forum....


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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Then he shouldn't have promised something that wasn't in his power to deliver, should he?

It's like me promising to win the lottery, then blaming everyone else that buys a ticket when I don't..

He lied.. Again.. And again.. (ad infinitum)
		
Click to expand...

Exactly.. mouth works before the brain is engaged ( if it exists!)


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## Foxholer (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			...
It's like Tories, have a look a bit closer to home for the Brexit blockers if that is the topic you want to lead on.  How about leading on the economy as that is traditionally your strong suit.
		
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Unfortunately, almost every prediction is that Brexit will, at east initially, screw the economy!

Oh and because so much effort has gone into Brexit, there's little the Tories can proclaim as 'look how we've looke after the economy'.

And, from BoJo's reord in government, it'll all have to be aspiration, rather than performance, based as he simply hasn't been in government long enough to achieve anything worth shouting about!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Spot on. I do find it bizarre that the Tory strategy to start with is to blame Labour for not enacting Brexit when, to steal from a twitter post, it was the ERG who blocked it the first three times, for not being Brexity enough, the DUP the fourth time and Johnson that pulled the bill the fifth time, after his deal was approved in principle, because he didn't want it scrutinised. Those are ALL Brexiters.

It's like Tories, have a look a bit closer to home for the Brexit blockers if that is the topic you want to lead on.  How about leading on the economy as that is traditionally your strong suit.
		
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Itâ€™s always the case, labour over tax .. well everything gets under funded and needs repairing. Itâ€™s just so obvious and yet so many people still donâ€™t get it.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Itâ€™s always the case, labour over tax .. well everything gets under funded and needs repairing. Itâ€™s just so obvious and yet so many people still donâ€™t get it.
		
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True, but don't forget Labour also caused the global economic financial crisis in the late 2000s as well by encouraging the selling of subprime mortgages in the US and then selling our gold reserves on Ebay for 50p.


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			True, but don't forget Labour also caused the global economic financial crisis in the late 2000s as well by encouraging the selling of subprime mortgages in the US and then selling our gold reserves on Ebay for 50p. 

Click to expand...

And donâ€™t forget the letter that said we had no money left. The gullibles always love bringing that little trump card out. Mystifyingly, they never bring up the time when the Tory Chancellor left almost exactly the same note for his Labour successor. Itâ€™s almost as though theyâ€™re just regurgitating exactly what their Masters want them to without any real thought ðŸ¤”


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			And donâ€™t forget the letter that said we had no money left. The gullibles always love bringing that little trump card out. Mystifyingly, they never bring up the time when the Tory Chancellor left almost exactly the same note for his Labour successor. Itâ€™s almost as though theyâ€™re just regurgitating exactly what their Masters want them to without any real thought ðŸ¤”
		
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That was such a major sense of humour failure, embarrassing. I remember seeing the guy interviewed who wrote the note at the time and it was a bit of fun, passing over the baton to the opposition.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			True, but don't forget Labour also caused the global economic financial crisis in the late 2000s as well by encouraging the selling of subprime mortgages in the US and then selling our gold reserves on Ebay for 50p. 

Click to expand...

True, True.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			True, but don't forget Labour also caused the global economic financial crisis in the late 2000s as well by encouraging the selling of subprime mortgages in the US and then selling our gold reserves on Ebay for 50p. 

Click to expand...

This one really gets up my nose ... the banks showed they could not be trusted and needed heavier regulation.


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## drdel (Nov 1, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			This one really gets up my nose ... the banks showed they could not be trusted and needed heavier regulation.
		
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... and were still rewarded with pretty hefty bonuses from the commissions they earnt on the dodgy loans they'd made !!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			... and were still rewarded with pretty hefty bonuses from the commissions they earnt on the dodgy loans they'd made !!
		
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Dunno why they are paid so much either, their job is a piece of cake .. itâ€™s not like cleaning public toilets


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 1, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I wondered when. I refer you to post 15398.
You having a go at Boris for not keeping his promise is disingenuous to say the least.
You know very well why he could not do so. He was stitched up.
		
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Nawâ€¦he was just incompetent and underestimated the opposition to Brexit.
Bluff and threats can only get you so far before you get found out.
Repeat and rinse makes you look a fool.


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## Dando (Nov 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nawâ€¦he was just incompetent and underestimated the opposition to Brexit.
Bluff and threats can only get you so far before you get found out.
Repeat and rinse makes you look a fool.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That analogy doesn't work. Other people buying tickets doesn't affect your chances of winning.

Would work better if you promised to win the lottery but others stopped you from buying a ticket.
		
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To make it more applicable to Johnson, how about:
I would have won the the club championship, except for the fact Iâ€™m not good enough and my opponents were better than me!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Nov 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



			To make it more applicable to Johnson, how about:
I would have won the the club championship, except for the fact Iâ€™m not good enough and my opponents were better than me!
		
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Yep, that pretty much sums it up. 

I thought that Boris had some kind of cunning plan that would have seen us leave on 31st. But it looks like he was comprehensively out manoeuvred.


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## Slime (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Then he shouldn't have promised something that wasn't in his power to deliver, should he?

It's like me promising to win the lottery, then blaming everyone else that buys a ticket when I don't..

*He lied.. Again.. And again.. (ad infinitum)*

Click to expand...

If you told me you were going to break your course record and then the course was closed down, would that make you a liar or merely mistaken?


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Slime said:



			If you told me you were going to break your course record and then the course was closed down, would that make you a liar or merely mistaken?
		
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It would mean that Iâ€™d promised something that I didnâ€™t have total control of. A bit stupid really.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

Ah just give up, he was over confident and disconnected from reality.


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

I thought that Boris had some kind of cunning plan that would have seen us leave on 31st. But it looks like he was comprehensively out manoeuvred.
		
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Iâ€™ll be honest, I never thought he or anyone else had a cunning plan. In fact I reckon Baldrick had more chance of coming up with a cunning plan.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 1, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1190301722390016000


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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Iâ€™ll be honest, I never thought he or anyone else had a cunning plan. In fact I reckon Baldrick had more chance of coming up with a cunning plan.
		
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Oh okay letâ€™s lay out the characters..
Rees Mogg = Lord Melchard
Boris Johnson = Lord Percy ? 
Farage = Lord Flashart ?
Corbyn = Baldrick ?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

*I thought that Boris had some kind of cunning plan that would have seen us leave on 31st. But it looks like he was comprehensively out manoeuvred*.
		
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I think this kind of sums up politics now.  It's the bluff, the confidence born out of a sense of entitlement, the reliance on people not questioning too much what comes out of his mouth.  This is all aided by political journalists who retweet the latest political spin from number 10 as a true story, the myth of Dominic Cummins as some kind of puppeteer masterminding all of this.

Where as logic and common sense would say that the parliamentary maths and clear splits in the Tory party means all this dead in a ditch, do or die BS was just to get the votes to be PM and to try and win the next election. And it will continue for the rest of the election campaign. 

I don't think he was out maneuvered really, it was just his version of Brexit was much the same as TMays but the ERG were prepared to go with it now as essentially one of the characters he plays is a Brexiteer, is one of them.  But he lost the DUP and some of the rest of parliament, who through party loyalty or their conscience stopping them, didn't let him bluster his way through us leaving on the 31st.


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## Slime (Nov 1, 2019)

Slime said:



			If you told me you were going to break your course record and then the course was closed down, would that make you a liar or merely mistaken?
		
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bluewolf said:



			It would mean that Iâ€™d promised something that I didnâ€™t have total control of. A bit stupid really.
		
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So BJ was just a bit stupid?
Have you honestly never made a promise you couldn't keep?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

Slime said:



			So BJ was just a bit stupid?
Have you honestly never made a promise you couldn't keep?
		
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He wasn't stupid at all. He was calling the EU's bluff and it worked.  He convinced them that he did have a way of leaving without a deal and it was this that got them to open the withdrawl agreement and change it, they have been scared of a no deal and the surrender alliance were playing straight into their hands. Of course its better suited to some to use the tired old 'Liar' card.  Parliaments packed to the rafters with people who twist the truth of their intentions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 1, 2019)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-lies-conservative-leader-candidate-list-times-banana-brexit-bus-a8929076.html?amp

He is liar at the end of the day

Wasnâ€™t that long ago he was telling everyone how wonderful the EU was and that we do everything possible to stay within the EU - referendum came around and he flipped when he knew he had the chance to gain more power.

Everything he has done has been all about him getting power - he has calculated his way to the PM job


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Slime said:



			So BJ was just a bit stupid?
Have you honestly never made a promise you couldn't keep?
		
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Not to get myself a top job, no.....


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2019)

Slime said:



			So BJ was just a bit stupid
		
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ðŸ¤”ðŸ‘


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He wasn't stupid at all. He was calling the EU's bluff and it worked.  He convinced them that he did have a way of leaving without a deal and it was this that got them to open the withdrawl agreement and change it, they have been scared of a no deal and the surrender alliance were playing straight into their hands. Of course its better suited to some to use the tired old 'Liar' card.  Parliaments packed to the rafters with people who twist the truth of their intentions.
		
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Absolute, unqualified nonsense. The truth of the matter is that the Benn act brought BJ back to the table after he had sought to engineer a No Deal exit. His blustering lies had absolutely no effect other than to get him the job. Only lard filled idiots like Mark Francois could ever believe that promise.


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-lies-conservative-leader-candidate-list-times-banana-brexit-bus-a8929076.html?amp

He is liar at the end of the day

Wasnâ€™t that long ago he was telling everyone how wonderful the EU was and that we do everything possible to stay within the EU - referendum came around and he flipped when he knew he had the chance to gain more power.

Everything he has done has been all about him getting power - he has calculated his way to the PM job
		
Click to expand...

Wasn't that long ago Jo Swinson was saying that we needed to leave the EU but that seems to have been brushed under the carpet.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Wasn't that long ago Jo Swinson was saying that we needed to leave the EU but that seems to have been brushed under the carpet.
		
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â€œWhataboutaryâ€


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## drdel (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Absolute, unqualified nonsense. The *truth of the matte*r is that the Benn act brought BJ back to the table after he had sought to engineer a No Deal exit. His blustering lies had absolutely no effect other than to get him the job. Only lard filled idiots like Mark Francois could ever believe that promise.
		
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And you know this as fact, or is it just your opinion?


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			â€œWhataboutaryâ€
		
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And fact


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			And you know this as fact, or is it just your opinion?
		
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Of course itâ€™s my bloody opinion. Thatâ€™s why I wrote it. But itâ€™s just as valid as anyone elseâ€™s opinion that is stated as fact on here. Just that my opinion is right, obviously...... ðŸ˜‚


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			And fact
		
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But the conversation wasnâ€™t about her - it was about the lies of the PM , is that the only answer , to attempt to divert on to someone else ?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Absolute, unqualified nonsense. The truth of the matter is that the Benn act brought BJ back to the table after he had sought to engineer a No Deal exit. His blustering lies had absolutely no effect other than to get him the job. Only lard filled idiots like Mark Francois could ever believe that promise.
		
Click to expand...

Absolute unqualified nonsense eh. So I guess that makes me a liar and lard filled idiot does it Danny.   OK, if that's your new modus at least I'm prepared for it.  Dissapointed but prepared. ðŸ˜•


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## Hobbit (Nov 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Wasn't that long ago Jo Swinson was saying that we needed to leave the EU but that seems to have been brushed under the carpet.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			But the conversation wasnâ€™t about her - it was about the lies of the PM , is that the only answer , to attempt to divert on to someone else ?
		
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I'm sure all of us could find something from every political leader that shows they have told lies. As for its about X and you can't post about Y, oh bloody grow up!

The constant round of Boris said, Jeremy said, Jo said has achieved diddly apart from make each poster feel great that they've identified material that shows X is a liar. Well whoopee-doo. They're all the same.

Its not I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here, or any other reality/popularity TV show. I don't get why supposed intelligent people are focusing on party leaders to the level they are. Its about what the policies and promises are, along with a particular party's dogma


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But the conversation wasnâ€™t about her - it was about the lies of the PM , is that the only answer , to attempt to divert on to someone else ?
		
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I get it - Tory leader does U turn = bad
Other party leaders do U turn = we should ignore it.

Very balanced.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 1, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I get it - Tory leader does U turn = bad
Other party leaders do U turn = we should ignore it.

Very balanced.
		
Click to expand...

Who said we should ignore it ? 

Someone appeared to question if BJ was really a liar - so I posted an article showing some of his lies and you start going on about someone else ?! 

I donâ€™t recall anyone saying anything about Swinson until you


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolute unqualified nonsense eh. So I guess that makes me a liar and lard filled idiot does it Danny.   OK, if that's your new modus at least I'm prepared for it.  Dissapointed but prepared. ðŸ˜•
		
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Oh stop being such a snowflake. You canâ€™t expect to hand out mild abuse without getting some back ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‰


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who said we should ignore it ?

Someone appeared to question if BJ was really a liar - so I posted an article showing some of his lies and you start going on about someone else ?!

I donâ€™t recall anyone saying anything about Swinson until you
		
Click to expand...

To try and add balance and show that it's not unusual for politicians to lie.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who said we should ignore it ?

Someone appeared to question if BJ was really a liar - so I posted an article showing some of his lies and you start going on about someone else ?!

I donâ€™t recall anyone saying anything about Swinson until you
		
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Liar liar pants on fire. This Liar calling is lazy and childish.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Oh stop being such a snowflake. You canâ€™t expect to hand out mild abuse without getting some back ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ˜‰
		
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Yea sure, where exactly did I mildly abuse you. I normally find your posts well thought out, disagreeable at times but a much better standard than many on here.  I thought my post was not personal or abusive to anyone but, there we go.


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yea sure, where exactly did I mildly abuse you. I normally find your posts well thought out, disagreeable at times but a much better standard than many on here.  I thought my post was not personal or abusive to anyone but, there we go.
		
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You havenâ€™t been abusive to me, and if you were Iâ€™d probably survive it. But please donâ€™t tell me you never use mild abuse in your posts. Youâ€™ve just called LP lazy and childish!!!!!


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## drdel (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Of* course itâ€™s my bloody opinion*. Thatâ€™s why I wrote it. But itâ€™s just as valid as anyone elseâ€™s opinion that is stated as fact on here. Just that my opinion is right, obviously...... ðŸ˜‚
		
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Steady on old chap - keep it civil !


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Liar liar pants on fire. This Liar calling is lazy and childish.
		
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excellent input - up to your normal standard â€œif you donâ€™t post what I want to see them i will post derogatory comments towards you â€œ


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

drdel said:



			Steady on old chap - keep it civil !
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

Love it. Are you offended?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			You havenâ€™t been abusive to me, and if you were Iâ€™d probably survive it. But please donâ€™t tell me you never use mild abuse in your posts. Youâ€™ve just called LP lazy and childish!!!!!
		
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Thats not abuse, its a reflection of him calling people liars.   Yes I do respond to abuse but I'm not in the habit of starting it. IMO the liar card is being branded about too easily and selectively, its lazy debate.


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats not abuse, its a reflection of him calling people liars.   Yes I do respond to abuse but I'm not in the habit of starting it. IMO the liar card is being branded about too easily and selectively, its lazy debate.
		
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Weâ€™ll have to respectfully disagree. BJ is a compulsive liar. He has been sacked for it. Several times. Itâ€™s in his character, and I for one think heâ€™s unfit for the highest office in the land. And Iâ€™d think that if he was on my side as well.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			excellent input - up to your normal standard â€œif you donâ€™t post what I want to see them i will post derogatory comments towards you â€œ
		
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I can throw that straight back. And you are correct, I dont like people using Liar, its a crude insult and you are narrowly targeting it.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Weâ€™ll have to respectfully disagree. BJ is a compulsive liar. He has been sacked for it. Several times. Itâ€™s in his character, and I for one think heâ€™s unfit for the highest office in the land. And Iâ€™d think that if he was on my side as well.
		
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I guess he has been untruthfull but that club has a lot of members.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I can throw that straight back. And you are correct, I dont like people using Liar, its a crude insult and you are narrowly targeting it.
		
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but itâ€™s true - he is a liar and has been proven to be a compulsive liar. Your defence of him is sweet - he will be touched by your concern of people posting about him on a golf forum ðŸ™„


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess he has been untruthfull but that club has a lot of members.
		
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Untruthful? Interesting terminology. I suppose we all have a limit to what weâ€™ll accept from our elected representatives.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 1, 2019)

Slime said:



			So BJ was just a bit stupid?
		
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I don't think it's right to call Boris stupid. A liar? Yes. Duplicitous? Probably. But stupid? Almost certainly not.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Untruthful? Interesting terminology. I suppose we all have a limit to what weâ€™ll accept from our elected representatives.
		
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Just take a look at many of them. Its so easy to pick them out one at a time and show instances where they have made statements that can be shown to be untrue or distorting their real intent.  As I have said its just lazy.


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			but itâ€™s true - he is a liar and has been proven to be a compulsive liar. Your defence of him is sweet - he will be touched by your concern of people posting about him on a golf forum ðŸ™„
		
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It isnâ€™t a golf forum for a few, for them itâ€™s just a Brexit forum


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			but itâ€™s true - he is a liar and has been proven to be a compulsive liar. Your defence of him is sweet - he will be touched by your concern of people posting about him on a golf forum ðŸ™„
		
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You are twisting my words now so do I call you a liar, of course I dont because its crude and childish. I don't defend him I rather criticise you and others who like to be selective in your condemnations. If you want to go around calling people in politics liars then dont give the impression its a trait unique to Boris.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



			It isnâ€™t a golf forum for a few, for them itâ€™s just a Brexit forum
		
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Maybe thats because its out of bounds and a Brexit thread ðŸ™„  The golf stuff is in the golf threads if that's your preference.


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 1, 2019)

I thought thatâ€™s what all politicians do?  Lie. Itâ€™s either all false, partly false or pants on fire. 
 We choose what lies we like best or which ones to disregard. Theyâ€™ve all spouted twaddle to gain your attention and votes. 

That is the world, from media, marketing, papers, news and politicians. Welcome to Earth.

â€œEverybody liesâ€ 

Gregory House


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You are twisting my words now so do I call you a liar, of course I dont because its crude and childish. I don't defend him I rather criticise you and others who like to be selective in your condemnations. If you want to go around calling people in politics liars then dont give the impression its a trait unique to Boris.
		
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How about people in journalism then? Or people in relationships? Or absent Fathers? 

If weâ€™re willing to accept our politicians brazenly lying to us, then how about the above?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			How about people in journalism then? Or people in relationships? Or absent Fathers?

If weâ€™re willing to accept our politicians brazenly lying to us, then how about the above?
		
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But were not talking about them are we.  I fail to see the relevance in your comment (see, i didn't call it absolute rubbish) I am not saying that people in all kinds of situations don't tell untruths or lies if you prefer,. I would suggest however blatantly calling someone in a 'Liar' is crude and especially if its where they have changed their minds.  I think its become a fashion with some people and in the case of Boris its bordering on the pitchfork brigade mentality.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 1, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			But were not talking about them are we.  I fail to see the relevance in your comment (see, i didn't call it absolute rubbish) I am not saying that people in all kinds of situations don't tell untruths or lies if you prefer,. I would suggest however blatantly calling someone in a 'Liar' is crude and especially if its where they have changed their minds.  I think its become a fashion with some people and in the case of Boris its bordering on the pitchfork brigade mentality.
		
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The man has built a career on lies, itâ€™s not just a â€œfibâ€ itâ€™s full blown dangerous lies, please feel free to show any politician from any party that has anywhere near the record he has for telling lies.


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2019)

I like reading some of the Twitter stuff from Led by Donkeys, it details all the lies and deceit by brexiteers - Johnson, Gove & Farage in particular


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## robinthehood (Nov 1, 2019)

Boris is a bullshitter.  Thats a fact.

A politician making a U turn is acceptable and happens often.


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The man has built a career on lies, itâ€™s not just a â€œfibâ€ itâ€™s full blown dangerous lies, please feel free to show any politician from any party that has anywhere near the record he has for telling lies.
		
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Didnâ€™t he get sacked by a newspaper for making stuff up?


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## robinthehood (Nov 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Didnâ€™t he get sacked by a newspaper for making stuff up?
		
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Yep,  man's a serial liar.


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yep,  man's a serial liar.
		
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Too immoral for an already morally corrupt industry - some guy ðŸ˜®


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Didnâ€™t he get sacked by a newspaper for making stuff up?
		
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Yes, absolutely, sacked from The Times and at least 2 other jobs.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 1, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes, absolutely, sacked from The Times and at least 2 other jobs.
		
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There is a fantastic quote from them ... pretty damning stuff


----------



## Slime (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Absolute, unqualified nonsense. *The truth of the matter is that the Benn act brought BJ back to the table* after he had sought to engineer a No Deal exit. His blustering lies had absolutely no effect other than to get him the job. Only lard filled idiots like Mark Francois could ever believe that promise.
		
Click to expand...

The truth of the matter is that the Benn Act took away our ace of trumps and that made the EU's hand so much stronger.


----------



## Slime (Nov 1, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But the conversation wasnâ€™t about her - it was about the lies of the PM , is that the only answer , to attempt to divert on to someone else ?
		
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It was actually about BJ's alleged 'lie' about leaving on October 31st.


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2019)

Slime said:



			The truth of the matter is that the Benn Act took away our ace of trumps and that made the EU's hand so much stronger.
		
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We had an ace?
& it was a trump card?
I just thought we had a damp squib, aka Boris ðŸ’©


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## Slime (Nov 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



*I don't think it's right to call Boris stupid. *A liar? Yes. Duplicitous? Probably. But stupid? Almost certainly not.
		
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I wasn't. 
I was asking whether BlueWolf thought that, as opposed to a liar, based on his reply to an earlier question I'd asked.


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Slime said:



			The truth of the matter is that the Benn Act took away our ace of trumps and that made the EU's hand so much stronger.
		
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Well, thatâ€™s what the Daily Mail and The Sun told you anyway, eh?


----------



## Slime (Nov 1, 2019)

JamesR said:



*We had an ace?
& it was a trump card?*
I just thought we had a damp squib, aka Boris ðŸ’©
		
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Correct.


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2019)

Slime said:



			Correct.
		
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So if you agree that all we had was a 2nd rate politician lying to the electorate how can you think we had an ace of trumps?


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 1, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That analogy doesn't work. Other people buying tickets doesn't affect your chances of winning.

Would work better if you promised to win the lottery but others stopped you from buying a ticket.[/QU
		
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SocketRocket said:



			You are twisting my words now so do I call you a liar, of course I dont because its crude and childish. I don't defend him I rather criticise you and others who like to be selective in your condemnations. If you want to go around calling people in politics liars then dont give the impression its a trait unique to Boris.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. There is a readily identifiable group here attacking Boris as if he is the only politician who has lied. So, ok, those supporting a political party or cause are likely to call the opposition politicians liars generally, at times. Goes with the territory.
As it happens, I think they all do so at one time or another.
What I am objecting to is when a specific incident is picked out as a lie, and having a laugh about it, when any fair minded person knows it wasn't.
Boris said he, as head of the Government, would take us out on 31st.
He said that would happen if he got a deal, and he made it clear it would happen if he didn't get a deal.
And when he said it the Government was in control of that decision. 
The HoC knew it, the EU knew it and so did the public.
Then the unprecedented happened. The speaker allowed some members to take the House's order of business away from the Government's control and 
they schemed for and created a law forbidding the Prime minister from leaving on 31st with no deal. 
If he did , he would become a criminal. They knew that no PM would do that.
Now all they had to do was ensure that if he came back with a deal to be approved by the House that they would continue their unholy alliance and vote it down. Which they did.

Then when the Oct 31st date passed, they start to crow , like you lot are doing now, that he broke his promise. 
You are twisting the truth- shame on you.


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## Slime (Nov 1, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Well, thatâ€™s what the Daily Mail and The Sun told you anyway, eh?
		
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Oh, how very droll and not the slightest bit clever.
I do have my own mind ............................. (if you remember).


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Slime said:



			Oh, how very droll and not the slightest bit clever.
I do have my own mind ............................. (if you remember).
		
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I havenâ€™t really seen enough evidence of that to confirm yet.


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## bluewolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly. There is a readily identifiable group here attacking Boris as if he is the only politician who has lied. So, ok, those supporting a political party or cause are likely to call the opposition politicians liars generally, at times. Goes with the territory.
As it happens, I think they all do so at one time or another.
What I am objecting to is when a specific incident is picked out as a lie, and having a laugh about it, when any fair minded person knows it wasn't.
Boris said he, as head of the Government, would take us out on 31st.
He said that would happen if he got a deal, and he made it clear it would happen if he didn't get a deal.
And when he said it the Government was in control of that decision.
The HoC knew it, the EU knew it and so did the public.
Then the unprecedented happened. The speaker allowed some members to take the House's order of business away from the Government's control and
they schemed for and created a law forbidding the Prime minister from leaving on 31st with no deal.
If he did , he would become a criminal. They knew that no PM would do that.
Now all they had to do was ensure that if he came back with a deal to be approved by the House that they would continue their unholy alliance and vote it down. Which they did.

Then when the Oct 31st date passed, they start to crow , like you lot are doing now, that he broke his promise.
You are twisting the truth- shame on you.
		
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Far be it from little old me to disabuse you of your very lovely little pet theory, but if what you say is the truth, then why on earth did he keep saying it, even when it became blindly obvious, to anyone but the most vociferous Katie Hopkins supporter, that it wasnâ€™t ever going to happen?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 2, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly. There is a readily identifiable group here attacking Boris as if he is the only politician who has lied. So, ok, those supporting a political party or cause are likely to call the opposition politicians liars generally, at times. Goes with the territory.
As it happens, I think they all do so at one time or another.
What I am objecting to is when a specific incident is picked out as a lie, and having a laugh about it, when any fair minded person knows it wasn't.
Boris said he, as head of the Government, would take us out on 31st.
He said that would happen if he got a deal, and he made it clear it would happen if he didn't get a deal.
And when he said it the Government was in control of that decision.
The HoC knew it, the EU knew it and so did the public.
Then the unprecedented happened. The speaker allowed some members to take the House's order of business away from the Government's control and
they schemed for and created a law forbidding the Prime minister from leaving on 31st with no deal.
If he did , he would become a criminal. They knew that no PM would do that.
Now all they had to do was ensure that if he came back with a deal to be approved by the House that they would continue their unholy alliance and vote it down. Which they did.

Then when the Oct 31st date passed, they start to crow , like you lot are doing now, that he broke his promise.
You are twisting the truth- shame on you.
		
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The Government were not in control, they had a -44 minority.
That is how democracy works and the speaker was absolutely correct to allow the HoC to drive the agenda.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 2, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly. There is a readily identifiable group here attacking Boris as if he is the only politician who has lied. So, ok, those supporting a political party or cause are likely to call the opposition politicians liars generally, at times. Goes with the territory.
As it happens, I think they all do so at one time or another.
What I am objecting to is when a specific incident is picked out as a lie, and having a laugh about it, when any fair minded person knows it wasn't.
Boris said he, as head of the Government, would take us out on 31st.
He said that would happen if he got a deal, and he made it clear it would happen if he didn't get a deal.
And when he said it the Government was in control of that decision.
The HoC knew it, the EU knew it and so did the public.
Then the unprecedented happened. The speaker allowed some members to take the House's order of business away from the Government's control and
they schemed for and created a law forbidding the Prime minister from leaving on 31st with no deal.
If he did , he would become a criminal. They knew that no PM would do that.
Now all they had to do was ensure that if he came back with a deal to be approved by the House that they would continue their unholy alliance and vote it down. Which they did.

Then when the Oct 31st date passed, they start to crow , like you lot are doing now, that he broke his promise.
You are twisting the truth- shame on you.
		
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What a fairytale! When are some of you tories going to wake up and take responsibility! 

Johnson campaigned for PM on promises he knew he didnâ€™t have control of, that damage had been done to TM by the failure of the her party to back her, there were and still are tory MPâ€™s who were never going to back his stance.

So instead of looking inwards and seeing how the behaviour of tory MPâ€™s has affected their own party some continually blame everyone else in parliament.

This disgrace didnâ€™t start when boris came in, it started when cameron refused to allow any preparation for Leave victory, to TM calling a vanity GE etc etc.

Only one party and party alone had all the cards stacked in their favour time and time again they failed to use it.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 2, 2019)

By all accounts politicians don't lie... They are merely "economical with the truth" ... Some more so than others...


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## bluewolf (Nov 2, 2019)

Anyway, moving on. Weâ€™re not allowed to say that Boris is a liar anymore as itâ€™s a tired cliche. So letâ€™s all get back to calling Corbyn a terrorist ðŸ‘ðŸ‘ðŸ‘


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## Hitdaball (Nov 2, 2019)

So Trump calling into Farages LBC show to tell us all how we should be doing Brexit whilst blowing smoke up Farages ass . 

How do we all feel about that ?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 2, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			So Trump calling into Farages LBC show to tell us all how we should be doing Brexit whilst blowing smoke up Farages ass .

How do we all feel about that ?
		
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Good scoop by LBC so well played to them for that. 

Realistically if you are the type of person who thinks Trump being on your side is a good thing then best of luck with that.


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## Hitdaball (Nov 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good scoop by LBC so well played to them for that.

Realistically if you are the type of person who thinks Trump being on your side is a good thing then best of luck with that.
		
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I like to think of that as the â€œPiers Morganâ€ test. If he is on your side, you chose the wrong side. 

Surprising lack of â€œstay out of our businessâ€ headlines in the mail/express though. Go figure.


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## Slime (Nov 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			I havenâ€™t really seen enough evidence of that to confirm yet.
		
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....................... and there it is again!
Oh, still unsurprisingly sidestepping.


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## bluewolf (Nov 2, 2019)

Slime said:



			....................... and there it is again!
Oh, still unsurprisingly sidestepping.
		
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Sidestepping what exactly. Iâ€™ve genuinely missed whatever it is you think Iâ€™m avoiding?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 2, 2019)

Boris is a liar .. there is no evidence to suggest that he is not.
The ERG frustrated the May deal .., 
May went for an election to try and give her more support.
The Electorate did not give it to her 
All the deals that have been offered are not as good as remaining.. this was always going to be the case. Talking of re-negotiating is pointless. 3 yrs of cobblers has gone by. Time should be called on this, if you still think a deal will happen you probably believe in the immaculate conception, fairies down the bottom of your garden, oh and Boris is honest.


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## Slime (Nov 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Sidestepping what exactly. Iâ€™ve genuinely missed whatever it is you think Iâ€™m avoiding?
		
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It was a Boris question, but it doesn't really matter, time has passed and momentum has been lost.
No doubt it'll rear it's inflammatory head again soon.


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## drdel (Nov 2, 2019)

It seems from the posts of the last couple of days that civility has got lost in the war to rubbish the PM and who can generate the most insults - shame on you lot. It is interesting how such personal insights can be made when I suspect not one of you posting has ever met the guy in person or had any dealings with him.

There are threads on BJ and JC !


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			It seems from the posts of the last couple of days that civility has got lost in the war to rubbish the PM and who can generate the most insults - shame on you lot. It is interesting how such personal insights can be made when I suspect not one of you posting has ever met the guy in person or had any dealings with him.

There are threads on BJ and JC !
		
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Iâ€™ve met him, had no dealings with him! All the discussion on his lies since last night are around his 31st Oct headline, ie Brexit!
I look forward to you going on the GE thread and reminding posters we have a JC, BJ and Brexit threads!
Or the mods could make 1 super thread, but I genuinely think there is no way to avoid overlap.


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## bluewolf (Nov 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			It seems from the posts of the last couple of days that civility has got lost in the war to rubbish the PM and who can generate the most insults - shame on you lot. It is interesting how such personal insights can be made when I suspect not one of you posting has ever met the guy in person or had any dealings with him.

There are threads on BJ and JC !
		
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Stop being so precious.

Oh, and being judgemental doesnâ€™t really do you any favours, does it?


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## Hitdaball (Nov 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			It seems from the posts of the last couple of days that civility has got lost in the war to rubbish the PM and who can generate the most insults - shame on you lot. It is interesting how such personal insights can be made when I suspect not one of you posting has ever met the guy in person or had any dealings with him.

There are threads on BJ and JC !
		
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Spoken as a true centrist with no bias ðŸ™‚


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## drdel (Nov 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Iâ€™ve met him, had no dealings with him! All the discussion *on his lies* since last night are around his 31st Oct headline, ie Brexit!
I look forward to you going on the GE thread and reminding posters we have a JC, BJ and Brexit threads!
Or the mods could make 1 super thread, but I genuinely think there is no way to avoid overlap.
		
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I have met and worked with the guy but Ok, I'll bite....

To lie means there was a deliberate intention to deceive.

It is clear the PM had the intention to leave when he set his deadline of the 31st: the Cabinet worked towards that date - there was no deception. Prior to 31st he achieved a 'deal' which gained HoC support; so there is no evidence of an 'intention' to deceive because he had a no-deal plan. His actions were delayed by the HoC. Thus, on this matter, there no substance to the didactic claims he lied.

While it is correct he lied while a newspaper editor - most 'editors/pundits do! Similarly it is not hard to find evidence of lies on every PM (and a host of other national and local politicians) before him. I can't believe that most sane people go around listening to and slavishly take literally what they hear and read about politicians in the media.

I character assassination is a common lazy journalistic trait but it is pretty pointless!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			I have met and worked with the guy but Ok, I'll bite....

To lie means there was a deliberate intention to deceive.

It is clear the PM had the intention to leave when he set his deadline of the 31st: the Cabinet worked towards that date - there was no deception. Prior to 31st he achieved a 'deal' which gained HoC support; so there is no evidence of an 'intention' to deceive because he had a no-deal plan. His actions were delayed by the HoC. Thus, on this matter, there no substance to the didactic claims he lied.

While it is correct he lied while a newspaper editor - most 'editors/pundits do! Similarly it is not hard to find evidence of lies on every PM (and a host of other national and local politicians) before him. I can't believe that most sane people go around listening to and slavishly take literally what they hear and read about politicians in the media.

I character assassination is a common lazy journalistic trait but it is pretty pointless!
		
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No intent to deceive? Isnâ€™t that saying they can say what they like with no repercussions?
He didnâ€™t say he hoped or would try, he said he would.

He might be a changed man, now heâ€™s PM, but he has to prove that and Iâ€™d suggest he starts with his own MPâ€™s.
Even during the tory leader election debate the other candidates told him 31st Oct was not do-able.

He has a long history of deceitfulness and was still prone to engaging his mouth before the brain is in gear, Iâ€™m not going to suddenly trust him because heâ€™s become PM.


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## drdel (Nov 2, 2019)

Hitdaball said:



			Spoken as a true centrist with no bias ðŸ™‚
		
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I voted to leave the EU so there's plenty of bias here; but I prefer playing the ball towards the goal rather than going off on tangents and personalities.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 2, 2019)

This for me shows what a deplorable man he is and also how indirectly he had a hand in people losing lives at Grenfell


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## drdel (Nov 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:








This for me shows what a deplorable man he is and also how indirectly he *had a hand in people losing lives *at Grenfell
		
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Really stretching logic: I guess he's also to blame for the South Africa win today.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 2, 2019)

You seriously have to have an inward look at yourself if you think Boris is the man. 
We have 2 parties led by men who are unelectable. Do you really think any of the manifesto offered by either will be followed? I think Corbyn will at least try, Boris is just going to lie as we have no evidence of Him telling the truth.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			I voted to leave the EU so there's plenty of bias here; but I prefer playing the ball towards the goal rather than going off on tangents and personalities. 

Click to expand...

I voted Leave and would of loved nothing more than boris to come up with a deal that got us out.
But on your second point, I totally agree, but Iâ€™m yet to see anyone on this forum use that argument or make that point when Diane Abbotâ€™s accounting ability has been dragged in to it or Corbyn supporting terrorists etc.
When Iâ€™ve done it (purposely) a few have happily and readily called me out.
Why the lazy journalistic, play the ball towards the goal etc comments have only appeared since boris and lies have been posted and not before I find puzzling.
(Not all points are aimed at you directly)


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## Hitdaball (Nov 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			Really stretching logic: I guess he's also to blame for the South Africa win today.
		
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By that analogy Boris would had to have cut the England team to 10men, then said 10 men can be better than 15 if they play more efficiently and then told Eddie Jones to get stuffed when he pointed out he didnâ€™t have a clue  what he was talking about and that is why we lost. 

You are backing the wrong horse.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			I have met and worked with the guy but Ok, I'll bite....

To lie means there was a deliberate intention to deceive.

It is clear the PM had the intention to leave when he set his deadline of the 31st: the Cabinet worked towards that date - there was no deception. Prior to 31st he achieved a 'deal' which gained HoC support; so there is no evidence of an 'intention' to deceive because he had a no-deal plan. His actions were delayed by the HoC. Thus, on this matter, there no substance to the didactic claims he lied.

While it is correct he lied while a newspaper editor - most 'editors/pundits do! Similarly it is not hard to find evidence of lies on every PM (and a host of other national and local politicians) before him. I can't believe that most sane people go around listening to and slavishly take literally what they hear and read about politicians in the media.

I character assassination is a common lazy journalistic trait but it is pretty pointless!
		
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I believe many of his constituents feel he has lied to them with regard his intentions of representing their opposition to the third runway and HS2...


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## drdel (Nov 2, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			You seriously have to have an inward look at yourself if you think Boris is the man.
We have 2 parties led by men who are unelectable. Do you really think any of the manifesto offered by either will be followed? I think Corbyn will at least try, Boris is just going to lie as we have no evidence of Him telling the truth.
		
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My election choice does not have BJ, JC or JS on the ballot paper so I guess, like several million others, I'll will have to support who i think will be good for my area. My personal opinion of any of them is just noise and will not count for much in a national election.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 2, 2019)

drdel said:



			My election choice does not have BJ, JC or JS on the ballot paper so I guess, like several million others, I'll will have to support who i think will be good for my area. My personal opinion of any of them is just noise and will not count for much in a national election.
		
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Personally I donâ€™t care about the area, simply because these people your voting for have no impact. Councils only have impact if they have or are the elected party. 
The manifesto is irrelevant until Brexit is cleared up.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2019)

bluewolf said:



			Far be it from little old me to disabuse you of your very lovely little pet theory, but if what you say is the truth, then why on earth did he keep saying it, even when it became blindly obvious, to anyone but the most vociferous Katie Hopkins supporter, that it wasnâ€™t ever going to happen?
		
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I explained that earlier, he was calling the EUs bluff, if they really believed we would leave with no deal then they would blink first, which they did. He was then hamstrung with the Benn act which he had to try and bluff through, the result was the EU opening the WA which they previously said was closed and not up for further negotiation.  Its a waste of time explaining this though because all you and some others want to say is 'Boris told lies'  keep saying it if its comforting for you but it is lazy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I explained that earlier, he was calling the EUs bluff, if they really believed we would leave with no deal then they would blink first, which they did. He was then hamstrung with the Benn act which he had to try and bluff through, the result was the EU opening the WA which they previously said was closed and not up for further negotiation.  Its a waste of time explaining this though because all you and some others want to say is 'Boris told lies'  keep saying it if its comforting for you but it is lazy.
		
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No, No, No, thatâ€™s all theory, you have no more proof of that being his motive than we have saying it wasnâ€™t.
His whole mantra from day 1 got politicians on all sides worried.
Serious question......Why should politicians have such blind faith in him, if heâ€™d of failed weâ€™d be out now with No Deal, what if that wasnâ€™t what the majority wanted?
Oh sorry guys, I was bluffing, but on the bright side, some people are happy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I explained that earlier, he was calling the EUs bluff, if they really believed we would leave with no deal then they would blink first, which they did. He was then hamstrung with the Benn act which he had to try and bluff through, the result was the EU opening the WA which they previously said was closed and not up for further negotiation.  Its a waste of time explaining this though because all you and some others want to say is 'Boris told lies'  keep saying it if its comforting for you but it is lazy.
		
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Yeah the bluff worked really well 

We ended up with a deal that was worse than what May already negotiated - well played Boris - you managed to make things worse and extend it even further. 

Regardless of what he said no deal was never really on the table 

The EU have played a blinder - made us look even more stupid and we will leave the EU worse off than being in it


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yeah the bluff worked really well

We ended up with a deal that was worse than what May already negotiated - well played Boris - you managed to make things worse and extend it even further.

Regardless of what he said no deal was never really on the table

The EU have played a blinder - made us look even more stupid and we will leave the EU worse off than being in it
		
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Please explain what is worse about it, I'm interested in the detail of that. 
Also how did he extend it further. You cast a lot of aspersions without any meat on the bone of your allegations.  

You may feel stupid but dont talk for everyone, I'm quite pleased we have managed to improve on Mays deal. Anyhow, I wait for you to detail and justify your comments.


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## Hobbit (Nov 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yeah the bluff worked really well

We ended up with a deal that was worse than what May already negotiated - well played Boris - you managed to make things worse and extend it even further.

Regardless of what he said no deal was never really on the table

The EU have played a blinder - made us look even more stupid and we will leave the EU worse off than being in it
		
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Is the deal worse? What parts of the deal are worse?

Have a look at what the end destination is for customs checks down the Irish Sea, and what customs check are made on trade with an end destination of NI. They're two different things.

Have a look at May's deal in relation to free trade deals, and have a look at Johnson's deal in relation to free trade deals.

Johnson's deal isn't all things wonderful but in terms of trade deals it is infinitely better by some wide margin. As for the customs checks, go have a read.. NI hasn't been sold down the river in terms of trade between mainland UK and NI.... but carry on believing the propaganda if it suits.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain what is worse about it, I'm interested in the detail of that.
Also how did he extend it further. You cast a lot of aspersions without any meat on the bone of your allegations. 

You may feel stupid but dont talk for everyone, I'm quite pleased we have managed to improve on Mays deal. Anyhow, I wait for you to detail and justify your comments.
		
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Did we leave on 31st October ? So itâ€™s extended 

And remind what happens to Northern Ireland with Boris deal ? Which of course he went against everything he stated - what was it he said â€œWill never be a border on the Irish Sea â€œ - what does his deal do again 

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/...esa-mays-and-infinitely-inferior-to-remaining

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-deal-is-worse-for-economy-than-may-s-be-says

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/ec...hnsons-brexit-deal-worse-economy-theresa-mays


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## pauljames87 (Nov 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:








This for me shows what a deplorable man he is and also how indirectly he had a hand in people losing lives at Grenfell
		
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Boris has always been a shyster , he cuts everything to the bear bones but never his fault. Says one thing then does another 

Cuts the firefighters 
Says he would vote to stay in EU then campaigns for leave 
Says he won't shut LUL ticket offices then closes the lot.

Says what the people want to hear and then does what suits his career most


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, No, No, thatâ€™s all theory, you have no more proof of that being his motive than we have saying it wasnâ€™t.
His whole mantra from day 1 got politicians on all sides worried.
Serious question......Why should politicians have such blind faith in him, if heâ€™d of failed weâ€™d be out now with No Deal, what if that wasnâ€™t what the majority wanted?
Oh sorry guys, I was bluffing, but on the bright side, some people are happy.
		
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No,No, No. His priority is not and should not be what politicians want but what the voting public want.  Many politicians have been untruthful with their intentions (see i didn't call them a bag of venomous liars)  suggesting they were only interested in stopping a no deal.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did we leave on 31st October ? So itâ€™s extended

And remind what happens to Northern Ireland with Boris deal ? Which of course he went against everything he stated - what was it he said â€œWill never be a border on the Irish Sea â€œ - what does his deal do again

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/...esa-mays-and-infinitely-inferior-to-remaining

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-deal-is-worse-for-economy-than-may-s-be-says

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/ec...hnsons-brexit-deal-worse-economy-theresa-mays

Click to expand...

I didnt ask you to trawl the internet for editorials that agree with your view, anyone can do that to support just about any view. Try to give a reply in your own words and thoughts. 

I thought it was May suggesting no border in the irish sea. The Northern Irish seem to come out quite well in his deal actually.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I didnt ask you to trawl the internet for editorials that agree with your view, anyone can do that to support just about any view. Try to give a reply in your own words and thoughts.

*I thought it was May suggesting no border in the irish sea. *The Northern Irish seem to come out quite well in his deal actually.
		
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....e-put-a-border-in-the-irish-sea-1-9110754/amp


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No,No, No. His priority is not and should not be what politicians want but what the voting public want.  Many politicians have been untruthful with their intentions (see i didn't call them a bag of venomous liars)  suggesting they were only interested in stopping a no deal.
		
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He doesnâ€™t represent the public, only a section of it. Heâ€™s a PM not a dictator!
If it was a bluff then he should of took his party and partners with him, whose fault is it the DUP and 21 tories voted against him.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did we leave on 31st October ? So itâ€™s extended

And remind what happens to Northern Ireland with Boris deal ? Which of course he went against everything he stated - what was it he said â€œWill never be a border on the Irish Sea â€œ - what does his deal do again

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/...esa-mays-and-infinitely-inferior-to-remaining

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-deal-is-worse-for-economy-than-may-s-be-says

https://politicshome.com/news/uk/ec...hnsons-brexit-deal-worse-economy-theresa-mays

Click to expand...

Independent reviews as well of the economy.. perhaps Mayâ€™s deal wasnâ€™t a full break but that shows a negative impact to our economy.
As for throwing the DUP under the bus .. thatâ€™s the best thing Boris has done, if he can Do it to Rees Mogg, that would be well impressive.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			He doesnâ€™t represent the public, only a section of it. Heâ€™s a PM not a dictator!
If it was a bluff then he should of took his party and partners with him, whose fault is it the DUP and 21 tories voted against him.
		
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I didnt say 'the public' did I?  I said the voting public, you know where the majority voted to leave and where he has been trying to make that happen but your anti Tory blinkers will never see that.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....e-put-a-border-in-the-irish-sea-1-9110754/amp

Click to expand...

Come on, how many MPs said they would respect the referendum, how many said they only wanted to stop no deal, how many times did they tell us there would be no second referendums. Cast your net a bit wider than that. 

Have you bothered to read what's in his and the EUs new deal, have you seen how NI get the best of both worlds from it.  Its nothing to do with throwing the DUP under a bus, its what's in the best interest of NI and Ireland overall and protecting the good friday agreement.  Weren't you anti DUP when they were voting with the government.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I didnt say 'the public' did I?  I said the voting public, you know where the majority voted to leave and where he has been trying to make that happen but your anti Tory blinkers will never see that.
		
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More rubbish, his job is to look after everyone, not the few, the many.

Iâ€™m a Leave voter, I never ever want a No Deal, therefore, not representing me!

Edit: And for what itâ€™s worth Iâ€™d feel the same if it was a Labour PM acting the same way.
Try and remember that when I voted Leave I understood I was putting my trust in the Government of the Day, the subsequent Governments have failed me!
If another vote was held tomorrow or  god knows when, I will still vote Leave, regardless of whoâ€™s in power.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			More rubbish, his job is to look after everyone, not the few, the many.

Iâ€™m a Leave voter, I never ever want a No Deal, therefore, not representing me!
		
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No deal is just one of the possible outcomes of leaving, did you not understand this when you voted, the process of leaving was revealed to us before we voted, article 50 gave the oppertunity to negotiate a leaving deal or if not for us to leave without one.

Also, cant you debate anything without using phrases like 'more rubbish'   posters like you accuse me of using insults but fail to see how you do it yourself and then get mardy when someone reacts to them.

His job isnt to look after everyone, its to govern the country according to his parties policies which the public vote for, if these policies are contrary to your personal beliefs how can you expect him to look after them, its you that needs to adapt to the wishes of the majority and vote in someone who does represent you at the next election.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No deal is just one of the possible outcomes of leaving, did you not understand this when you voted, the process of leaving was revealed to us before we voted, article 50 gave the oppertunity to negotiate a leaving deal or if not for us to leave without one.

Also, cant you debate anything without using phrases like 'more rubbish'   posters like you accuse me of using insults but fail to see how you do it yourself and then get mardy when someone reacts to them.

His job isnt to look after everyone, its to govern the country according to his parties policies which the public vote for, if these policies are contrary to your personal beliefs how can you expect him to look after them, its you that needs to adapt to the wishes of the majority and vote in someone who does represent you at the next election.
		
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No Deal was never, ever an option on the table, even when TM called a GE after the result No Deal was never in the tory manifesto, if the EU kick us out with No Deal then that is something Iâ€™d accept as they are not my elected representatives. No Deal is now being used as a stick, but apparently itâ€™s not what anyone in the HoC wants.

Again you are confusing the point over who he represents, isnâ€™t he looking after all those who voted Leave regardless of political allegiance?

And as for who we vote for in a GE, Iâ€™d also expect any Government to look after all, from the top to the bottom, you seem to be saying (using the current Government as an example) the tories should only be looking after tory voters and 2 fingers to the rest!


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No Deal was never, ever an option on the table, even when TM called a GE after the result No Deal was never in the tory manifesto, if the EU kick us out with No Deal then that is something Iâ€™d accept as they are not my elected representatives. No Deal is now being used as a stick, but apparently itâ€™s not what anyone in the HoC wants.

Again you are confusing the point over who he represents, isnâ€™t he looking after all those who voted Leave regardless of political allegiance?

And as for who we vote for in a GE, Iâ€™d also expect any Government to look after all, from the top to the bottom, you seem to be saying (using the current Government as an example) the tories should only be looking after tory voters and 2 fingers to the rest!
		
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You've continually posted up No Deal was never on the table, and you've posted up links and graphics saying the same. Fine, that's your belief. My belief is it has always been a possible outcome. Which one of us is right?

So why was No Deal always possible? Firstly, if the deal offered was so bad it would be rejected and the EU refused to offer anything else. Secondly, May's deal was rejected by the HoC 3 times. And until Johnson's team managed to get the EU to reopen the WA, No Deal was very much on the table. No Deal still isn't off the table, even if the majority of the HoC say it is. If things continue to rumble on beyond Jan 31st I wouldn't be surprised if Macron says enough and refuses to agree to a further extension.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You've continually posted up No Deal was never on the table, and you've posted up links and graphics saying the same. Fine, that's your belief. My belief is it has always been a possible outcome. Which one of us is right?

So why was No Deal always possible? Firstly, if the deal offered was so bad it would be rejected and the EU refused to offer anything else. Secondly, May's deal was rejected by the HoC 3 times. And until Johnson's team managed to get the EU to reopen the WA, No Deal was very much on the table. No Deal still isn't off the table, even if the majority of the HoC say it is. If things continue to rumble on beyond Jan 31st I wouldn't be surprised if Macron says enough and refuses to agree to a further extension.
		
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And if Macron refuses, like Iâ€™ve put above â€œweâ€ have no choice, but even again in interview this morning the PM has said he wants a deal, itâ€™s only the extremists looking for a No Deal, therefore whoâ€™s being honest? Are they saying we want a deal and putting in very little effort?

Obviously Bri, I am only one voice stating I donâ€™t want No Deal, and it seems to me itâ€™s getting like No Deal is the only option, first we had Remainers lost = Shut up go away, now it seems, Leavers who want a deal = Shut up go away.

Sophy Ridge laid in to him this morning asking if his deal was so good why didnâ€™t he give Parliament a few more days to debate it rather than pulling the Bill and going for a GE.
Best case for him know is 31st Jan and only if he has a clear majority, how does a tory remain MP vote if they are representing a strong remain area?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And if Macron refuses, like Iâ€™ve put above â€œweâ€ have no choice, but even again in interview this morning the PM has said he wants a deal, itâ€™s only the extremists looking for a No Deal, therefore whoâ€™s being honest? Are they saying we want a deal and putting in very little effort?

Obviously Bri, I am only one voice stating I donâ€™t want No Deal, and it seems to me itâ€™s getting like No Deal is the only option, first we had Remainers lost = Shut up go away, now it seems, Leavers who want a deal = Shut up go away.

Sophy Ridge laid in to him this morning asking if his deal was so good why didnâ€™t he give Parliament a few more days to debate it rather than pulling the Bill and going for a GE.
Best case for him know is 31st Jan and only if he has a clear majority, how does a tory remain MP vote if they are representing a strong remain area?
		
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He didnt give them more time because he could see Reeve, Letwin, Benn etc turning it into a Frankenstein monster bill with amendments that make it another surrender bill.  Dont be so blinkered.


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## drdel (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And if Macron refuses, like Iâ€™ve put above â€œweâ€ have no choice, but even again in interview this morning the PM has said he wants a deal, itâ€™s only the extremists looking for a No Deal, therefore whoâ€™s being honest? Are they saying we want a deal and putting in very little effort?

Obviously Bri, I am only one voice stating I donâ€™t want No Deal, and it seems to me itâ€™s getting like No Deal is the only option, first we had Remainers lost = Shut up go away, now it seems, Leavers who want a deal = Shut up go away.

Sophy Ridge laid in to him this morning asking if his deal was so good why didnâ€™t he give Parliament a few more days to debate it rather than pulling the Bill and going for a GE.
Best case for him know is 31st Jan and only if he has a clear majority, *how does a tory remain MP vote if they are representing a strong remain area*?
		
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If the MP was one of the majority in the HoC who voted to trigger Art 50 they made their decision at that time!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			If the MP was one of the majority in the HoC who voted to trigger Art 50 they made their decision at that time!
		
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And if it isnâ€™t?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He didnt give them more time because he could see Reeve, Letwin, Benn etc turning it into a Frankenstein monster bill with amendments that make it another surrender bill.  Dont be so blinkered.
		
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Youâ€™re guessing again and yet Iâ€™m blinkered, I could accuse you of the very same thing by asking if you believe everything boris says!
He knew 31st October was dead in the water, he had got his Bill passed stage 1, he had the upper hand.


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## Foxholer (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You've continually posted up No Deal was never on the table, and you've posted up links and graphics saying the same. Fine, that's your belief. My belief is it has always been a possible outcome. Which one of us is right?

So why was No Deal always possible? Firstly, if the deal offered was so bad it would be rejected and the EU refused to offer anything else. Secondly, May's deal was rejected by the HoC 3 times. And until Johnson's team managed to get the EU to reopen the WA, No Deal was very much on the table. No Deal still isn't off the table, even if the majority of the HoC say it is. If things continue to rumble on beyond Jan 31st I wouldn't be surprised if Macron says enough and refuses to agree to a further extension.
		
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Absolutely this!

When you voted - to Leave - did you see 'With a Deal' or 'Without a Deal' as options on the voting paper? I certainly didn't, and, having checked out what invoking Art 50 meant, absolutely knew that 'No Deal' was (and still is) a possibility/option!

So anyone who voted Leave (should have) realised that 'No Deal' WAS on the table - even as an undesirable option, though better, imo, than May's 'stay' one!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re guessing again and yet Iâ€™m blinkered, I could accuse you of the very same thing by asking if you believe everything boris says!
He knew 31st October was dead in the water, he had got his Bill passed stage 1, he had the upper hand.
		
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I am just trying to be open minded about it, some of you dont seem to understand how negotiations work. Negotiators have to be prepared to give and take too find some common ground, you cant simply say 'Boris said this or that then changed his position so hes a Liar'  You are blinkered and over biased and either cant or are not capable of taking a reasoned viewpoint.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Absolutely this!

When you voted - to Leave - did you see 'With a Deal' or 'Without a Deal' as options on the voting paper? I certainly didn't, and, having checked out what invoking Art 50 meant, absolutely knew that 'No Deal' was (and still is) a possibility/option!

So anyone who voted Leave (should have) realised that 'No Deal' WAS on the table - even as an undesirable option, though better, imo, than May's 'stay' one!
		
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Have you ever seen a ballot paper with boxes covering every option?
Did the GE ballot paper in 2017 have a box promising every MP would respect the referendum?

The information we have now is vastly different to what we had in 2016, tell me, with 2 choices Leave or Remain, how was the campaign fought as it was that point I had to make a decision, it wasnâ€™t based on what Art 50 said or what deal TM negotiated.
My input and say in the matter ended in 2016.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am just trying to be open minded about it, some of you dont seem to understand how negotiations work. Negotiators have to be prepared to give and take too find some common ground, you cant simply say 'Boris said this or that then changed his position so hes a Liar'  You are blinkered and over biased and either cant or are not capable of taking a reasoned viewpoint.
		
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What part of â€œI wish borisâ€™s deal had got us outâ€ is blinkered?
You just donâ€™t seem to accept I donâ€™t want a No Deal, Iâ€™m more than intelligent enough to understand negotiation, it still doesnâ€™t mean I have to agree with the strategy.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What part of â€œI wish borisâ€™s deal had got us outâ€ is blinkered?
You just donâ€™t seem to accept I donâ€™t want a No Deal, Iâ€™m more than intelligent enough to understand negotiation, it still doesnâ€™t mean I have to agree with the strategy.
		
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I dont want a no deal, I'd rather we had a good free trade deal but I accepted when I voted leave that no deal was a possible outcome, if you don't accept that then you voted the wrong way.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont want a no deal, I'd rather we had a good free trade deal but I accepted when I voted leave that no deal was a possible outcome, if you don't accept that then you voted the wrong way.
		
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What did you base that acceptance on?
The only people who mentioned No Deal was the remain side and that was dismissed as project fear!

I genuinely believe some are confusing what we know now, to what was stated during the Referendum run up.


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And if Macron refuses, like Iâ€™ve put above â€œweâ€ have no choice, but even again in interview this morning the PM has said he wants a deal, itâ€™s only the extremists looking for a No Deal, therefore whoâ€™s being honest? Are they saying we want a deal and putting in very little effort?

Obviously Bri, I am only one voice stating I donâ€™t want No Deal, and it seems to me itâ€™s getting like No Deal is the only option, first we had Remainers lost = Shut up go away, now it seems, Leavers who want a deal = Shut up go away.

Sophy Ridge laid in to him this morning asking if his deal was so good why didnâ€™t he give Parliament a few more days to debate it rather than pulling the Bill and going for a GE.
Best case for him know is 31st Jan and only if he has a clear majority, how does a tory remain MP vote if they are representing a strong remain area?
		
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I believe he wants a deal, and I've always thought he wanted a deal. If he didn't want a deal he has the option of a pact with Farage, which would more than stitch up Labour. And when has it been Leavers who want a deal should shut up and go away? Think you're reading between the lines there 2+2=5.

As for pulling the Bill; its a Remain Parliament. His Bill would have been amended to death, including going beyond the 31st Jan - that I would have put money on. And if it had been amended, what would the EU do with the amended version? They said it isn't open to change. It would have ended up with no to No Deal by Parliament. No to the amended Deal by the EU. Stalemate, No Deal or Remain, and how long would that have taken to sort out?

As for how bad is No Deal; who knows. But it is only a snapshot in time. No Deal would morph into deals in various areas. Its in the interests of both sides to have a deal.


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## drdel (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Have you ever seen a ballot paper with boxes covering every option?
Did the GE ballot paper in 2017 have a box promising every MP would respect the referendum?

The information we have now is vastly different to what we had in 2016, tell me, with 2 choices Leave or Remain, how was the campaign fought as it was that point I had to make a decision, it wasnâ€™t based on what Art 50 said or what deal TM negotiated.
My input and say in the matter ended in 2016.
		
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And if we wait another 3 years we will know even more, when do you reckon we will know enough?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I believe he wants a deal, and I've always thought he wanted a deal. If he didn't want a deal he has the option of a pact with Farage, which would more than stitch up Labour. And when has it been Leavers who want a deal should shut up and go away? Think you're reading between the lines there 2+2=5.

As for pulling the Bill; its a Remain Parliament. His Bill would have been amended to death, including going beyond the 31st Jan - that I would have put money on. And if it had been amended, what would the EU do with the amended version? They said it isn't open to change. It would have ended up with no to No Deal by Parliament. No to the amended Deal by the EU. Stalemate, No Deal or Remain, and how long would that have taken to sort out?

As for how bad is No Deal; who knows. But it is only a snapshot in time. No Deal would morph into deals in various areas. Its in the interests of both sides to have a deal.
		
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People are quick to throw the Art 50 argument in, I believe we were told we would negotiate a deal prior to starting the legal process to leave, it was the EU who stated they wouldnâ€™t negotiate until afterwards, so when we voted we didnâ€™t know No Deal would be part of Art 50, that came at a later date.
A lot of things we are now meant to just accept, ie shut up, were not known facts at the time of the referendum.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			And if we wait another 3 years we will know even more, when do you reckon we will know enough?
		
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The whole process has been a cluster from day 1, said it many times before it should of been a cross party negotiation team and we shouldnâ€™t of allowed ourselves to be bullied by the EU.
Are you suggesting we should just accept any deal to get it over with?

As Iâ€™ve answered your question would you like to answer post #16212


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			What did you base that acceptance on?
The only people who mentioned No Deal was the remain side and that was dismissed as project fear!

I genuinely believe some are confusing what we know now, to what was stated during the Referendum run up.
		
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David Cameron mentioned no deal and that we would leave on WTO terms if no deal was secured.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			David Cameron mentioned no deal and that we would leave on WTO terms if no deal was secured.
		
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And he was mocked!


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And he was mocked!
		
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Not by me, I voted for the leap in the dark. The â€œdecades of uncertaintyâ€. 
Admittedly now itâ€™s just leave whatever the cost because Iâ€™ve had enough. And I suspect most leavers feel the same.


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## drdel (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And if it isnâ€™t?
		
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I thought I was clear with my view.
If a Remain MP was elected in a Remain area on a party pledge to honour the result having voted for Art 50 then that person went against his own views and their voters. If said MP want to be re-elected then that dishonesty needs to be faced at the ballot box.


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## Pro Zach (Nov 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He didnt give them more time because he could see Reeve, Letwin, Benn etc turning it into a Frankenstein monster bill with amendments that make it another surrender bill.  Dont be so blinkered.
		
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Iâ€™m not sure this makes sense. If he had carried on to the debate on the WA he may have got it through. If people had amended it to a Frankenstein bill he could have then pulled it.

It seems to me the most likely reason he didnâ€™t carry on with the bill, is not because it might fail, but because it might have passed.

Perhaps the EU gave him this deal in the knowledge that he wouldnâ€™t allow it to go through parliamentary debate, but be used for a general election to split the leave vote. This is what the EU and remainers need to do.

Come the general election there will be people like you voting Tory on the belief that if they get a majority they would pass this WA. Despite the fact that they didnâ€™t try to do this when they had the chance. Others, who donâ€™t like the deal, or would prefer no deal, will vote for the Brexit party.

If the EU hadnâ€™t agreed to a new deal then BJ would have had to fight the election on May's deal or no deal. The former would make the Tories a laughing stock and result in pretty much no votes. Neither leavers nor remainers would vote for May's deal. The latter option would mean the Brexit party probably wouldnâ€™t stand against them and they would have a good chance of winning a majority because they would be the only leave option.

I think the most likely election result will be Labour majority or a Labour coalition majority. They will then â€˜negotiateâ€™ a deal that keeps us in the customs union and free trade agreement. They will then put the option to the people in a referendum. Do you want to remain without any representation or remain with representation? We will of course vote to remain and it was all done â€˜democraticallyâ€™.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			I thought I was clear with my view.
If a Remain MP was elected in a Remain area on a party pledge to honour the result having voted for Art 50 then that person went against his own views and their voters. If said MP want to be re-elected then that dishonesty needs to be faced at the ballot box.
		
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It is clear for the current situation, Iâ€™m on about after the GE. (Apologies if I didnâ€™t make that clear enough in the post you answered)


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			People are quick to throw the Art 50 argument in, I believe we were told we would negotiate a deal prior to starting the legal process to leave, it was the EU who stated they wouldnâ€™t negotiate until afterwards, so when we voted we didnâ€™t know No Deal would be part of Art 50, that came at a later date.
A lot of things we are now meant to just accept, ie shut up, were not known facts at the time of the referendum.
		
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As I said in post #16208... you're repeating yourself. You've got stuck. Rewording it won't lead to me posting anything different in response than I posted in #16208.

As for "we didn't know No Deal would be part of Art 50..." I, again, refer you back to my response. I always thought that No Deal was a possibility. Why? Because it was never a God given promise that the EU would agree to anything. You are the one stuck on believing, and have obviously been proven wrong. You need to accept the reality of the situation, and not a soundbite you believe to be a fact.


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## robinthehood (Nov 3, 2019)

It doesn't matter as we all know that the deal will be the easiest in history. 100 percent true because the non lying Tory party told us so.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			As I said in post #16208... you're repeating yourself. You've got stuck. Rewording it won't lead to me posting anything different in response than I posted in #16208.

As for "we didn't know No Deal would be part of Art 50..." I, again, refer you back to my response. I always thought that No Deal was a possibility. Why? Because it was never a God given promise that the EU would agree to anything. You are the one stuck on believing, and have obviously been proven wrong. You need to accept the reality of the situation, and not a soundbite you believe to be a fact.
		
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I can only go on the reasons I voted to Leave, you canâ€™t bring the things of what has happened since the vote to tell me my decision then is wrong.

I have no choice but accept the situation now, as apparently all leavers opinions have been morphed in to â€œyou ticked a box and it means........â€ the reality is it doesnâ€™t, what we are faced with now was never on the table in 2016.

I challenge anyone to go back and find someone/anyone who campaigned for Leave and tried to tell us the risks we faced and the outcomes we now have.

Itâ€™s not me listening to soundbites itâ€™s those who have forgotten or choose to forget what the information available was that made them vote the way they did.


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## Dando (Nov 3, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It doesn't matter as we all know that the deal will be the easiest in history. 100 percent true because the non lying Tory party told us so.
		
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They said it â€œshould beâ€ but when have you ever let facts stop another rant


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I can only go on the reasons I voted to Leave, you canâ€™t bring the things of what has happened since the vote to tell me my decision then is wrong.

I have no choice but accept the situation now, as apparently all leavers opinions have been morphed in to â€œyou ticked a box and it means........â€ the reality is it doesnâ€™t, what we are faced with now was never on the table in 2016.

I challenge anyone to go back and find someone/anyone who campaigned for Leave and tried to tell us the risks we faced and the outcomes we now have.

Itâ€™s not me listening to soundbites itâ€™s those who have forgotten or choose to forget what the information available was that made them vote the way they did.
		
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Of course I can bring up things that have happened since but not to tell you your decision was wrong. Your decision was the right decision for you with the information you took onboard, and how you interpreted that information. I don't question your decision in the slightest. I absolutely respect your decision, and would defend your right to it to the nth degree, even though I'm a Remainer.

However, at the risk of repeating myself yet again, your comment "what we are faced with now was never..." is you repeating yourself again, again, again. As I've said, I've always accepted there was a chance that No Deal could happen.

I'll ask a question of you in the hope you can see it. Did the EU ever promise a deal? You know the answer is no. So, if a deal was never promised why do you believe you were voting for Leave with a deal? There was never a guarantee of a deal. I'll be a little presumptuous and say that you believed the soundbites by Leave campaigners.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I can only go on the reasons I voted to Leave, you canâ€™t bring the things of what has happened since the vote to tell me my decision then is wrong.

I have no choice but accept the situation now, as apparently all leavers opinions have been morphed in to â€œyou ticked a box and it means........â€ the reality is it doesnâ€™t, what we are faced with now was never on the table in 2016.

I challenge anyone to go back and find someone/anyone who campaigned for Leave and tried to tell us the risks we faced and the outcomes we now have.

Itâ€™s not me listening to soundbites itâ€™s those who have forgotten or choose to forget what the information available was that made them vote the way they did.
		
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The ONLY thing that's different now is that a bunch of Remain Politicians have carried out every trick they can conjure up to thwart Brexit.   Absolutely nothing else has changed.   Cameron made it very clear at the referendum that the choice was ours, that if we voted leave there would be no customs union or single market, there would be no more referendums, we would leave with or without a deal.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Of course I can bring up things that have happened since but not to tell you your decision was wrong. Your decision was the right decision for you with the information you took onboard, and how you interpreted that information. I don't question your decision in the slightest. I absolutely respect your decision, and would defend your right to it to the nth degree, even though I'm a Remainer.

However, at the risk of repeating myself yet again, your comment "what we are faced with now was never..." is you repeating yourself again, again, again. As I've said, I've always accepted there was a chance that No Deal could happen.

I'll ask a question of you in the hope you can see it. Did the EU ever promise a deal? You know the answer is no. So, if a deal was never promised why do you believe you were voting for Leave with a deal? There was never a guarantee of a deal. I'll be a little presumptuous and say that you believed the soundbites by Leave campaigners.
		
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You call them soundbites, what else did we have to go on?
I read the newspapers, researched the net, listened to radio and watched TV, the biggest issue was sadly immigration, time and time again we were told what a strong position weâ€™d hold in the negotiations etc.

Maybe the none discussion of a no deal scenario never raised any alarm bells with me, if it did with yourself then youâ€™re more prepared than me.

If you have a spare hour or 2 have a search on here for the old brexit threads and youâ€™ll find no talk of no deals, but will find the posts stating we should take our time to get it right and how the EU will have to give in due to how much money they risk losing.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It doesn't matter as we all know that the deal will be the easiest in history. 100 percent true because the non lying Tory party told us so.
		
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And the deal could have been easy if it had not been for May the remainer and a bunch of politicians working actively to hamstring our negotiators.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You call them soundbites, what else did we have to go on?
I read the newspapers, researched the net, listened to radio and watched TV, the biggest issue was sadly immigration, time and time again we were told what a strong position weâ€™d hold in the negotiations etc.

Maybe the none discussion of a no deal scenario never raised any alarm bells with me, if it did with yourself then youâ€™re more prepared than me.

If you have a spare hour or 2 have a search on here for the old brexit threads and youâ€™ll find no talk of no deals, but will find the posts stating we should take our time to get it right and how the EU will have to give in due to how much money they risk losing.
		
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The old Brexit thread was deleted from here.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The ONLY thing that's different now is that a bunch of Remain Politicians have carried out every trick they can conjure up to thwart Brexit.   Absolutely nothing else has changed.   Cameron made it very clear at the referendum that the choice was ours, that if we voted leave there would be no customs union or single market, there would be no more referendums, we would leave with or without a deal.
		
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As Iâ€™ve just said to Hobbit, go and read the threads from 3 yrs back just after the vote, because you for one were posting about the deal weâ€™d get.
But letâ€™s not blame the negotiators or the erg or the other tories who didnâ€™t back TMâ€™s deal, letâ€™s blame the Remain Politicians.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The old Brexit thread was deleted from here.
		
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You can still find plenty of others, â€œBrexit 2 months onâ€ has a 1000 posts etc.


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You call them soundbites, what else did we have to go on?
I read the newspapers, researched the net, listened to radio and watched TV, the biggest issue was sadly immigration, time and time again we were told what a strong position weâ€™d hold in the negotiations etc.

Maybe the none discussion of a no deal scenario never raised any alarm bells with me, if it did with yourself then youâ€™re more prepared than me.

If you have a spare hour or 2 have a search on here for the old brexit threads and youâ€™ll find no talk of no deals, but will find the posts stating we should take our time to get it right and how the EU will have to give in due to how much money they risk losing.
		
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As per my last post, did the EU promise a deal? Its as simple as that.

Take out all the "he said, she said" you heard from politicians - thats just a sales pitch. Take out the glossy pamphlets and the experts opinions. Did the EU promise a deal? Its that simple.

There was no promise. And if there was no promise, No Deal was a possibility. Its that simple.


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## Grant85 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			As per my last post, did the EU promise a deal? Its as simple as that.

Take out all the "he said, she said" you heard from politicians - thats just a sales pitch. Take out the glossy pamphlets and the experts opinions. Did the EU promise a deal? Its that simple.

There was no promise. And if there was no promise, No Deal was a possibility. Its that simple.
		
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Doesn't mean we should just accept it. It's a democracy... people's views change and it's not unreasonable for that view to change when provided with more detail on what the actual outcomes are. 

Imagine you order fish n chips at a restaurant. Unknown to the server, they have run out of Fish n Chips. 
You would expect them to come out and ask what you would prefer, rather than just cobble together Trout and a bag of Golden Woner... which is technically Fish n Chips and you have to eat it / pay for it as that's what you asked for.


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Doesn't mean we should just accept it. It's a democracy... people's views change and it's not unreasonable for that view to change when provided with more detail on what the actual outcomes are.

Imagine you order fish n chips at a restaurant. Unknown to the server, they have run out of Fish n Chips.
You would expect them to come out and ask what you would prefer, rather than just cobble together Trout and a bag of Golden Woner... which is technically Fish n Chips and you have to eat it / pay for it as that's what you asked for.
		
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Think you've missed the point of the discussion Paul and I were having. Your post doesn't connect with what we were on about.

I don't dispute what you're saying but you're well off the mark with my point to Paul.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Doesn't mean we should just accept it. It's a democracy... people's views change and it's not unreasonable for that view to change when provided with more detail on what the actual outcomes are.

Imagine you order fish n chips at a restaurant. Unknown to the server, they have run out of Fish n Chips.
You would expect them to come out and ask what you would prefer, rather than just cobble together Trout and a bag of Golden Woner... which is technically Fish n Chips and you have to eat it / pay for it as that's what you asked for.
		
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Unfortunately nobody from either remain or leave has provided any detailed proof on any future outcome.


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## drdel (Nov 3, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Doesn't mean we should just accept it. It's a democracy... people's views change and it's not unreasonable for that view to change when provided with more detail on what the actual outcomes are.

Imagine you order fish n chips at a restaurant. Unknown to the server, they have run out of Fish n Chips.
You would expect them to come out and ask what you would prefer, rather than just cobble together Trout and a bag of Golden Woner... which is technically Fish n Chips and you have to eat it / pay for it as that's what you asked for.
		
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But a country has to plan rather further ahead than fast food.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 3, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately nobody from either remain or leave has provided any detailed proof on any future outcome.
		
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Why should remainers offer up suggestions? May has been completely ostracised because she was a remainer negotiating the leave deal .. so evidence is there that leavers want to resolve this. Itâ€™s just now they have to do it in a manner that will convince the remainers.
Which is a huge ask given that the overall difference between both sides, 3 yrs ago was too small and now itâ€™s even smaller.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			As per my last post, did the EU promise a deal? Its as simple as that.

Take out all the "he said, she said" you heard from politicians - thats just a sales pitch. Take out the glossy pamphlets and the experts opinions. Did the EU promise a deal? Its that simple.

There was no promise. And if there was no promise, No Deal was a possibility. Its that simple.
		
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Last post on it Bri as I see it different.

The EU donâ€™t and never wanted us to Leave. They made provisions for a No Deal should it of happened.

We(this Country) were led by our Politicians, everytime the EU made a statement it was ridiculed or praised and used by either campaign, the EU position was quite clear.

Itâ€™s like SR going on about Cameronâ€™s No Deal statement as if it backs up his point, Cameron was laughed at, that statement was used time and time again by the Leave Campaign under the banner of Project Fear.

No Deal may of in your opinion been there by default, in my opinion it wasnâ€™t and is now used as a get clause by those on the extremes of wanting to Leave.


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## Foxholer (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...
My input and say in the matter ended in 2016.
		
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Yet you are still harping on and on!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yet you are still harping on and on!
		
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Knob.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yet you are still harping on and on!
		
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Probably because they could not deliver on the promises ... we might have been discussing golf deals had they done the job properly!!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Probably because they could not deliver on the promises ... we might have been discussing golf deals had they done the job properly!!!
		
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Ignore him mate, he has wound people up on this subject since the threads began. He believes heâ€™s superior and more intelligent than everyone else.


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## Foxholer (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...
No Deal may of in your opinion been there by default,* in my opinion it wasnâ€™t *and is now used as a get clause by those on the extremes of wanting to Leave.
		
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You are wrong! Clause 3 of Article 50 refers!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You are wrong! Clause 3 of Article 50 refers!
		
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Please stop trying to be clever and follow the conversation, the Leave campaign was built around us doing negotiations prior to triggering Art 50.
I know what Art 50 says about what happens after 2 years.


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Last post on it Bri as I see it different.

The EU donâ€™t and never wanted us to Leave. They made provisions for a No Deal should it of happened.

We(this Country) were led by our Politicians, everytime the EU made a statement it was ridiculed or praised and used by either campaign, the EU position was quite clear.

Itâ€™s like SR going on about Cameronâ€™s No Deal statement as if it backs up his point, Cameron was laughed at, that statement was used time and time again by the Leave Campaign under the banner of Project Fear.

No Deal may of in your opinion been there by default, in my opinion it wasnâ€™t and is now used as a get clause by those on the extremes of wanting to Leave.
		
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Whether you see it differently or not Paul the fact, not opinion as you state, still remains that the EU never promised a deal, hence No Deal was always a possibility.


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## Foxholer (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...the Leave campaign was built around us doing negotiations prior to triggering Art 50.
...
		
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Utter Twaddle!

All parties were aware that NO NEGOTIATIONS would happen until Article 50 was triggered - as per Clause 2!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Utter Twaddle!

All parties were aware that NO NEGOTIATIONS would happen until Article 50 was triggered - as per Clause 2!
		
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Youâ€™re wrong, hereâ€™s one bit of evidence of what the Leave Campaign said.


edit: Bit more what we were told:
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org...ablishing_a_new_uk_eu_deal_after_23_june.html


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Last post on it Bri as I see it different.

*The EU donâ€™t and never wanted us to Leave.* They made provisions for a No Deal should it of happened.

We(this Country) were led by our Politicians, everytime the EU made a statement it was ridiculed or praised and used by either campaign, the EU position was quite clear.

Itâ€™s like SR going on about Cameronâ€™s No Deal statement as if it backs up his point, Cameron was laughed at, that statement was used time and time again by the Leave Campaign under the banner of Project Fear.

No Deal may of in your opinion been there by default, in my opinion it wasnâ€™t and is now used as a get clause by those on the extremes of wanting to Leave.
		
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Sorry mate, the EU don't and never wanted OUR MONEY to leave.  We could share a ditch with Boris for all they care, as long as we keep paying.


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## robinthehood (Nov 3, 2019)

People keep talking about how much money we give the EU. Where do I sign up for my rebate after we've left and how do I claim the on going extra amount?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sorry mate, the EU don't and never wanted OUR MONEY to leave.  We could share a ditch with Boris for all they care, as long as we keep paying.
		
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Totally agree, We are the cash cow, itâ€™s one of the reasons I want to Leave.


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## robinthehood (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree, We are the cash cow, itâ€™s one of the reasons I want to Leave.
		
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Yeah spending 1% of our budget.....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah spending 1% of our budget.....
		
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The % of our budget is irrelevant, we are still putting in more than others and whilst the EU is so crooked and unwilling to change, I donâ€™t want to be part of it.
One big example is 114million euros a year it costs to move to Strasbourg once a month.


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## robinthehood (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The % of our budget is irrelevant, we are still putting in more than others and whilst the EU is so crooked and unwilling to change, I donâ€™t want to be part of it.
One big example is 114million euros a year it costs to move to Strasbourg once a month.
		
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Pie in the sky mate, we will still be paying money to the EU after we have left...
The all encompassing FTA wont be free...


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			One big example is 114million euros a year it costs to move to Strasbourg once a month.
		
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Even as a supporter of us staying in the EU it's things like this example that make it difficult to defend our continued membership. It's a clear and obvious waste of money just to appease the French. The EU (and the UK government) need to look at where money is being wasted. Both need to realise that if they cut out the unnecessary spending they could do so much more with the money they receive.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 3, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Even as a supporter of us staying in the EU it's things like this example that make it difficult to defend our continued membership. It's a clear and obvious waste of money just to appease the French. The EU (and the UK government) need to look at where money is being wasted. *Both need to realise that if they cut out the unnecessary spending they could do so much more with the money they receive.*

Click to expand...

And members might be less inclined to leave...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Pie in the sky mate, we will still be paying money to the EU after we have left...
The all encompassing FTA wont be free...
		
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Not forever, the period will be agreed then cease.


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## robinthehood (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not forever, the period will be agreed then cease.
		
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There'll be ongoing payments forever.
The FTA won't be free.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 3, 2019)

Stop paying the Brexit MEPs and delete Farageâ€™s pension - every little counts ðŸ˜ŽðŸ‘


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## robinthehood (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			In what way?
		
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Depends on our long term arrangements with the EU.


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not forever, the period will be agreed then cease.
		
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Norway pays just under â‚¬900m per year, set to rise at the end of next year. Switzerland pays â‚¬1.1bn a year, set to rise at the end of next year. The UK's payments, at the current rate, run till the end of 2020. After that they reduce till the end of 2028 on a sliding scale. Quite what the UK will pay for access for trade, see Norway and Switzerland above, who knows but it won't be nothing.

Canada and Japan pay nothing for access.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Norway pays just under â‚¬900m per year, set to rise at the end of next year. Switzerland pays â‚¬1.1bn a year, set to rise at the end of next year. The UK's payments, at the current rate, run till the end of 2020. After that they reduce till the end of 2028 on a sliding scale. Quite what the UK will pay for access for trade, see Norway and Switzerland above, who knows but it won't be nothing.

Canada and Japan pay nothing for access.
		
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Surely thatâ€™s paying under a deal we want to agree to, which of course we donâ€™t have to.
Thatâ€™s different to a â€œmembershipâ€ payment that we currently have no choice.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 3, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Stop paying the Brexit MEPs and delete Farageâ€™s pension - every little counts ðŸ˜ŽðŸ‘
		
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We can't. We're still members of the EU so we have to keep paying for our MEPs. Unless or until we leave then we have to respect our responsibilities.

Although if you'd suggested that MI5 had "deleted" Farage then you would have had my full support. ðŸ‘


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## harpo_72 (Nov 3, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			We can't. We're still members of the EU so we have to keep paying for our MEPs. Unless or until we leave then we have to respect our responsibilities.

Although if you'd suggested that MI5 had "deleted" Farage then you would have had my full support. ðŸ‘
		
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I have heard the Duke of Edinburgh is the man to ask about little jobs like that


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Norway pays just under â‚¬900m per year, set to rise at the end of next year. Switzerland pays â‚¬1.1bn a year, set to rise at the end of next year. The UK's payments, at the current rate, run till the end of 2020. After that they reduce till the end of 2028 on a sliding scale. Quite what the UK will pay for access for trade, see Norway and Switzerland above, who knows but it won't be nothing.

Canada and Japan pay nothing for access.
		
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Norway's population is around 5 million, Switzerland's population is around 8.5 million. Our population of 80 million (ish) makes us 10x more attractive as a market so out contribution should be much lower.


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## robinthehood (Nov 3, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Norway's population is around 5 million, Switzerland's population is around 8.5 million. Our population of 80 million (ish) makes us 10x more attractive as a market so out contribution should be much lower.
		
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The reverse is likely to be true.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 3, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The reverse is likely to be true.
		
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Not if our negotiators are any good and do what they are paid to do. So yes, in all likelihood, having seen the balls up they've made of the Brexit negotiations, I agree with you.


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely thatâ€™s paying under a deal we want to agree to, which of course we donâ€™t have to.
Thatâ€™s different to a â€œmembershipâ€ payment that we currently have no choice.
		
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Will there be a choice? If Â£274bn worth of trade is with the EU, and the UK has a choice of pay up and ensure a trade deal or say no and bankrupt almost half the trade in the UK? I suppose it could be argued that the UK then blocks EU trade into the UK. But that takes us back to the arguments that have gone on in here for over 3 years. No one really knows the answer.


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Norway's population is around 5 million, Switzerland's population is around 8.5 million. Our population of 80 million (ish) makes us 10x more attractive as a market so out contribution should be much lower.
		
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Or pay 10x more?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Will there be a choice? If Â£48bn worth of trade is with the EU, and the UK has a choice of pay up and ensure a trade deal or say no and bankrupt almost half the trade in the UK? I suppose it could be argued that the UK then blocks EU trade into the UK. But that takes us back to the arguments that have gone on in here for over 3 years. No one really knows the answer.
		
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Agreed Bri, my point is, youâ€™d hope the price is an agreed figure that the UK is happy to pay, thatâ€™s a different scenario to what we have now.


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Agreed Bri, my point is, youâ€™d hope the price is an agreed figure that the UK is happy to pay, thatâ€™s a different scenario to what we have now.
		
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If it matches Norway and Switzerland pro-rata the UK would pay around Â£6.5bn per year. I suppose it saves, currently, Â£4.5bn. But then there's the reducing outstanding payments. No savings in the first 8? years. Probably paying even more in the first few years. Who knows?


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## Foxholer (Nov 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re wrong, hereâ€™s one bit of evidence of what the Leave Campaign said.
View attachment 28482

edit: Bit more what we were told:
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org...ablishing_a_new_uk_eu_deal_after_23_june.html

Click to expand...

If you were gullible enough to believe that propaganda, particularly while also stating you know (knew) what Article 50 contained, there's not a lot of point discussing it - it's your own fault for not checking that drivel out.

In fact, I remember poo-poo-ing that ad, or one very like it, for precisely that reason on this very forum!

As I stated in the post you quoted....

'All parties were aware that NO NEGOTIATIONS would happen until Article 50 was triggered - as per Clause 2!'

The fact that the Leave organisation chose to spout complete twaddle about negotiating a deal before invoking A50 - and you believed it - simply demonstrates your gullibility!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			If you were gullible enough to believe that propaganda, particularly while also stating you know (knew) what Article 50 contained, there's not a lot of point discussing it - it's your own fault for not checking that drivel out.

In fact, I remember poo-poo-ing that ad, or one very like it, for precisely that reason on this very forum!

As I stated in the post you quoted....

'All parties were aware that NO NEGOTIATIONS would happen until Article 50 was triggered - as per Clause 2!'

The fact that the Leave organisation chose to spout complete twaddle about negotiating a deal before invoking A50 - and you believed it - simply demonstrates your gullibility!
		
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I suggest you have a read of this.

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/amp/

It ran counter to declarations by the U.K.â€™s victorious Vote Leave campaign not to be bound by the formal exit procedure. If the U.K. agreed to the terms of its departure before its future relationship was settled, the Brexit campaigners had argued, it would deprive itself of much of its leverage.

â€œTaking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop,â€ read the official Brexit campaignâ€™s prospectus â€” endorsed by two of the political leaders of the campaign, then Justice Secretary Michael Gove and the former mayor of London, Boris Johnson. â€œWe will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave.â€

So I guess the 52% were gullible.

I accept the EU played a blinder in this, but to suggest No Deal was well known or widely known is rubbish.

Isnâ€™t all campaigning propoganda?

It wasnâ€™t an add it was a page from the prospectus and was what people expected to happen, TM tried for months to have talks and the EU slammed the door on it, just another example of her weak leadership


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## Foxholer (Nov 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I suggest you have a read of this.

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/amp/
...
		
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So bleedin' what!

When are you going to absorb my previous statement -- All parties knew that A50 needed to be invoked first!
EU simply applied the Rules.

Do you ignore/object to those Golf ones that happen to be inconvenient for you?



pauldj42 said:



			...
Isnâ€™t all campaigning propoganda?
...
		
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No! At least not my interpretation of 'propaganda'.
Though some certainly borders/is!

Read more at https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...he-phoenix.97927/page-815#FdooHoRcmgjuvKxh.99


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So bleedin' what!

When are you going to absorb my previous statement -- All parties knew that A50 needed to be invoked first!
EU simply applied the Rules.

Do you ignore/object to those Golf ones that happen to be inconvenient for you?
		
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Itâ€™s alright spouting this 3 years after the event! 
Feel free to show us how you warned people of this and knew there was no way things would change.

You must be pleased having 20/20 Hindsight.

I take it youâ€™ve never seen any rules change in your life?


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## Foxholer (Nov 4, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s alright spouting this 3 years after the event!
Feel free to show us how you warned people of this and knew there was no way things would change.

_You must be pleased having 20/20 Hindsight._

*I take it youâ€™ve never seen any rules change in your life?*

Click to expand...

If someone cares to resurrect the pre vote 'Brexit' thread(s), it'll be in there!

Re the Italicised sentence...The ability to say 'I told you so' is really only 'pleasing' when things work out well!

As for the sentence in bold....that merely seems to demonstrate you daft 'logic'!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			If someone cares to resurrect the pre vote 'Brexit' thread(s), it'll be in there!

Re the Italicised sentence...The ability to say 'I told you so' is really only 'pleasing' when things work out well!

As for the sentence in bold....that merely seems to demonstrate you daft 'logic'!
		
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Of course it does, your never wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2019)

It may be the case that @Foxholer and others say about No Deal being highlighted as a real possibility is true - however I might suggest that the electorate was not equally well informed - we only have to consider Cummings observation of the influence of the message on the Red Bus on the Leave vote to known that the â€˜in the faceâ€™ advertising and messages would have been what informed a large section of the electorate. 

So whilst the better or more fully informed may have understood that much of the Leave campaign dissing of Remain Project Fear was rubbish - and that many of the risks and the possibility of a No Deal were real - I suggest that Cummings tells us that many did not have that understanding - he tells us that many mostly listened to the Leave message - about the great deal that would be struck - and about what Leave said about Remain concerns. 

There may not be that much post-vote revisionist thinking going on with the posters here, however I suggest that it is incontestable that we are not a representative of the wider electorate.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It may be the case that @Foxholer and others say about No Deal being highlighted as a real possibility is true - however I might suggest that the electorate was not equally well informed - we only have to consider Cummings observation of the influence of the message on the Red Bus on the Leave vote to known that the â€˜in the faceâ€™ advertising and messages would have been what informed a large section of the electorate.

So whilst the better or more fully informed may have understood that much of the Leave campaign dissing of Remain Project Fear was rubbish - and that many of the risks and the possibility of a No Deal were real - I suggest that Cummings tells us that many did not have that understanding - he tells us that many mostly listened to the Leave message - about the great deal that would be struck - and about what Leave said about Remain concerns.

There may not be that much post-vote revisionist thinking going on with the posters here, however I suggest that it is incontestable that we are not a representative of the wider electorate.
		
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Oh I see. Most of them were too thick ðŸ™„


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh I see. Most of them were too thick ðŸ™„
		
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Your words - not mine.  Rather sad that you choose to equate not being fully informed - or being misinformed - with being thick.  But if that's how you want to see it then fine - not how I see it.  

I know more about aircraft navigation systems than 99.99% of the UK electorate.  Does that make me intelligent and that 99.99% thick.  No - it simply makes me more informed and the rest less informed about aircraft navigation systems.  But feel happy to spin.


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## Hobbit (Nov 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It may be the case that @Foxholer and others say about No Deal being highlighted as a real possibility is true - however I might suggest that the electorate was not equally well informed - we only have to consider Cummings observation of the influence of the message on the Red Bus on the Leave vote to known that the â€˜in the faceâ€™ advertising and messages would have been what informed a large section of the electorate.

So whilst the better or more fully informed may have understood that much of the Leave campaign dissing of Remain Project Fear was rubbish - and that many of the risks and the possibility of a No Deal were real - I suggest that Cummings tells us that many did not have that understanding - he tells us that many mostly listened to the Leave message - about the great deal that would be struck - and about what Leave said about Remain concerns.

There may not be that much post-vote revisionist thinking going on with the posters here, however I suggest that it is incontestable that we are not a representative of the wider electorate.
		
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Here's a thought Hugh, purely from a Devil's Advocate perspective; maybe it was the better or more fully informed that thought Remain were guilty of Project Fear. What you've done is make an assumption that it was the less informed that labelled it Project Fear. Maybe it was the other way round. And maybe that's being open minded about it, i.e. not coming at it from a closed position with an assumption already in hand.

Personally, I think both sides were guilty of lies and spin, labelling each side guilty of Project Fear. For example, some Leaver politicians painted a picture of unicorn galloping up the Mall. George Osbourne, I believe, didn't do the Remain campaign any favours whatsoever by saying there'd be an emergency budget, that 500,000 would lose their jobs within a year and families would be Â£4,200 a year worse off.

The emergency budget didn't happen, as many people said it wouldn't. And to lose Â£4,200 a year would mean that people would need to earn almost Â£70,000 a year gross to have the spending power capable of getting anywhere near the increased tariff rates that amount to an extra Â£4,200. As for 500,000 losing their jobs, it hasn't happened yet. If anything the trend is the exact opposite.

BTW, help me out with your last sentence. There's a double negative. Is it contestable that the forum is representative? Sorry, I'm a bit lost on that one.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Your words - not mine.  Rather sad that you choose to equate not being fully informed - or being misinformed - with being thick.  But if that's how you want to see it then fine - not how I see it. 

I know more about aircraft navigation systems than 99.99% of the UK electorate.  Does that make me intelligent and that 99.99% thick.  No - it simply makes me more informed and the rest less informed about aircraft navigation systems.  But feel happy to spin.
		
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What's that to do with it. You suggest most people that voted leave didnt understand that no deal was an option.  How do you know this and are you suggesting they were either too lazy to find out or were too stupid to understand it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What's that to do with it. You suggest most people that voted leave didnt understand that no deal was an option.  How do you know this and are you suggesting they were either too lazy to find out or were too stupid to understand it.
		
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I am suggesting that not everyone has the inclination to look into and understand the detail and workings of all things themselves, but are happy to accept the analysis and messages provided by those in whom they trust; that they assume have done that detailed analysis, and therefore have that full and correct understanding.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Here's a thought Hugh, purely from a Devil's Advocate perspective; maybe it was the better or more fully informed that thought Remain were guilty of Project Fear. What you've done is make an assumption that it was the less informed that labelled it Project Fear. Maybe it was the other way round. And maybe that's being open minded about it, i.e. not coming at it from a closed position with an assumption already in hand.

Personally, I think both sides were guilty of lies and spin, labelling each side guilty of Project Fear. For example, some Leaver politicians painted a picture of unicorn galloping up the Mall. George Osbourne, I believe, didn't do the Remain campaign any favours whatsoever by saying there'd be an emergency budget, that 500,000 would lose their jobs within a year and families would be Â£4,200 a year worse off.

The emergency budget didn't happen, as many people said it wouldn't. And to lose Â£4,200 a year would mean that people would need to earn almost Â£70,000 a year gross to have the spending power capable of getting anywhere near the increased tariff rates that amount to an extra Â£4,200. As for 500,000 losing their jobs, it hasn't happened yet. If anything the trend is the exact opposite.

BTW, help me out with your last sentence. There's a double negative. Is it contestable that the forum is representative? Sorry, I'm a bit lost on that one.
		
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mhm...I'm suggesting that those on this forum are not representative of the wider electorate (we are golfers and most are members of clubs after all) - and that those here might have been in that part of the electorate more inclined to dig deep and understand rather than be told - applies equally to Leave and Remain sides.


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## Foxholer (Nov 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What's that to do with it. You suggest *most* people that voted leave didnt understand that no deal was an option.  How do you know this and are you suggesting they were either too lazy to find out or were too stupid to understand it.
		
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Twaddle! The word SILH used was 'many'!

Btw. I believe his post also identified his 'source'!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 4, 2019)

Â£8,311,500,000.00
That is how much of our money has been spent on melted 50p coins, Get Ready and No Deal planning.


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## drdel (Nov 4, 2019)

I see Poulter and Westwood have called JC a "buffoon" for his tax proposals. Right or wrong they might be wise to stay out politics


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## drdel (Nov 4, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Â£8,311,500,000.00
That is how much of our money has been spent on melted 50p coins, Get Ready and No Deal planning.
		
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I think you misunderstood how the Mint functions and the money has paid wages yielding tax and VAT revenue.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Poulter and Westwood have called JC a "buffoon" for his tax proposals. Right or wrong they might be wise to stay out politics
		
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Is Poulter also not a resident and so taxpayer in Florida? Rarely good for sports people to get involved in politics, particularly wealthy ones. I get their point but it doesn't come across well.


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## jp5 (Nov 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Poulter and Westwood have called JC a "buffoon" for his tax proposals. Right or wrong they might be wise to stay out politics
		
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No surprise though, multi-millionaries are scared of Corbyn. 

I can only conclude that, for those of us not earning a lifetime's earnings in a weekend, I suspect Corbyn is probably on the right track.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is Poulter also not a resident and so taxpayer in Florida? Rarely good for sports people to get involved in politics, particularly wealthy ones. I get their point but it doesn't come across well.
		
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The statement they and other Sportsman criticised was Corbynâ€™s Statement on the amount of Billionaires there are in the world when we have so much poverty, he didnâ€™t mention millionaires or saying people shouldnâ€™t improve themselves, Poulter, in particular, completely missed the point.
I like this statement to put millionaires and billionaires in to perspective:
1 Million seconds = 12 days.
1 Billion seconds = 31 years.


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Poulter and Westwood have called JC a "buffoon" for his tax proposals. Right or wrong they might be wise to stay out politics
		
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Kind of sums it up for me....  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2019/nov/04/why-are-golfers-against-jeremy-corbyn


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## Slime (Nov 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Kind of sums it up for me....  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2019/nov/04/why-are-golfers-against-jeremy-corbyn

Click to expand...

What a pathetically written article.
What does it sum up for you .......................... golfers or the Guardian?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 4, 2019)

Slime said:



			What a pathetically written article.
What does it sum up for you .......................... golfers or the Guardian?
		
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It's not an article, it's a bit of frivolous satire aimed at the general stereotype of golfers.  If you can't take the mickey out of yourself then lighten up.


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## Slime (Nov 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's not an article, it's a bit of frivolous satire aimed at the general stereotype of golfers.  If you can't take the mickey out of yourself then lighten up.
		
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I still found it pathetic.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle! The word SILH used was 'many'!

Btw. I believe his post also identified his 'source'!
		
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Twaddle! I know what he meant.


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## robinthehood (Nov 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle! I know what he meant.
		
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Please get a new word..!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Please get a new word..!
		
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Twazock.


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## Hobbit (Nov 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twazock.
		
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think you missed a z from twazzock


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			think you missed a z from twazzock

Click to expand...

But its a new word ðŸ˜‰


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Please get a new word..!
		
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Maybe we could have a vote or referendum on what the new word should be. We could then spend 3 years arguing over the outcome and half of us could refuse to accept the result while calling those that voted for the winning word stupid, racist and uneducated.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh I see. Most of them were too thick ðŸ™„
		
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Well apparently Russian was their first language, comrade.


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## drdel (Nov 4, 2019)

Hoyle gets the Chair, Let's hope we can gets some structure back in the HoC.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Well apparently Russian was their first language, comrade.
		
Click to expand...

Twazzokski


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Maybe we could have a vote or referendum on what the new word should be. We could then spend 3 years arguing over the outcome and half of us could refuse to accept the result while calling those that voted for the winning word stupid, racist and uneducated.
		
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There must be a word for that but I don't want Twazzock taking off table.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There must be a word for that but I don't want Twazzock taking off table.
		
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That's just typical of you leavers. Changing your mind over what the new word should be. One minute it's "twaZock" and the next it's "twaZZock". Make your mind up. Twazock means twazock. No twazzock is better than a bad twazzock. ðŸ˜€


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## robinthehood (Nov 4, 2019)

Any one watching smuggled on ch4? Who needs EU FOM when you can just breeze through easily ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## harpo_72 (Nov 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Any one watching smuggled on ch4? Who needs EU FOM when you can just breeze through easily ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Hang on Brexit stops illegal immigration!! 
I dunno how, but it does, Nigel said it would. ðŸ˜


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## harpo_72 (Nov 4, 2019)

Sorry that is comrade Nigel


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's just typical of you leavers. Changing your mind over what the new word should be. One minute it's "twaZock" and the next it's "twaZZock". Make your mind up. Twazock means twazock. No twazzock is better than a bad twazzock. ðŸ˜€
		
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We Leavers know Twazers when we see them, they're not any old Remainer but a breed apart from the run-of-the-mill Twazzock. They can morph into a sometimes tartan sometimes green sometimes orange form but beware when they start to Twaz, its not pretty ðŸ˜œ


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Any one watching smuggled on ch4? Who needs EU FOM when you can just breeze through easily ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Should cheer up Jezzer.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			We Leavers know Twazers when we see them, they're not any old Remainer but a breed apart from the run-of-the-mill Twazzock. They can morph into a sometimes tartan sometimes green sometimes orange form but beware when they start to Twaz, its not pretty ðŸ˜œ
		
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What you talking about comrade?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			What you talking about comrade?
		
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Twazzocks sweety.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

Brilliant the Russians have been funding some of the Brexit campaigns and given donations to the Tory Party ... 
all you comrades have been outed ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Brilliant the Russians have been funding some of the Brexit campaigns and given donations to the Tory Party ... 
all you comrades have been outed ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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Jamesbrown said:



			Just waiting for the â€œRussian collusionâ€ or  â€œGeorge Soros interferenceâ€ in the media afterwards.
		
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Yawning...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle! I know what he meant.
		
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So you are telling me that Cummings was wrong - after all it was Cummings who explained the importance of the message on the side of bus in getting the leave vote. And I am not making that up or suggesting anything else - just saying what Cummings has told us about that and how it fitted into how the Leave campaign targetted voters.


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## Hobbit (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Brilliant the Russians have been funding some of the Brexit campaigns and given donations to the Tory Party ...
all you comrades have been outed ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£
		
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Wow!

3 investigations by the electoral commission and one by the National Crime Agency all found there there hadn't been any funding from Russia yet this is still being bandied around.

Nowt like twisting the facts for effect. And they call Leavers out for lies.

The current report hasn't been published yet but, hey kids will be kids.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2019)

Brexit...â€¦.it was a UK wide vote so sod off Scotland.
Election....only UK wide party leaders can take part in the TV leaders debate.

The 2014 VOW ....Lead us don't leave us Scotland.
2014 Result a few hours later..... EVEL introduced.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Wow!

3 investigations by the electoral commission and one by the National Crime Agency all found there there hadn't been any funding from Russia yet this is still being bandied around.

Nowt like twisting the facts for effect. And they call Leavers out for lies.

The current report hasn't been published yet but, hey kids will be kids.

Click to expand...

fact or fiction who cares itâ€™s hilarious.. well for a non Tory remainer anyway ðŸ™‚ðŸ‘

By the way no one has said how Nige was going to stop illegal immigration... ??


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## Foxholer (Nov 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle! I know what he meant.
		
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I have no doubt you did! But you then proceeded to corrupt that meaning my changing 'many' to 'most'!

Do you corrupt your golf score in similar fashion?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I have no doubt you did! But you then proceeded to corrupt that meaning my changing 'many' to 'most'!

Do you corrupt your golf score in similar fashion?
		
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Twaddle! First Hogie can fight his own battles, you are only jumping in because you cant help yourself, second many//most is a nit picking argument, third what's it to do with golf !!! Get a grip you big twazzzer.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Wow!

3 investigations by the electoral commission and one by the National Crime Agency all found there there hadn't been any funding from Russia yet this is still being bandied around.

Nowt like twisting the facts for effect. And they call Leavers out for lies.

The current report hasn't been published yet but, hey kids will be kids.

Click to expand...

So joking aside, why has no.10 stopped the following report out? 
Also other findings have been proven that there has been interference ...
Come on don't pooh pooh something that exists and don't claim it's project fear either, we get a lot of stick for EU funded surveys/investigations despite the caveat that they are not allowed to influence. 
So we should let this one run a bit and let the suppressed report answer the question.


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## drdel (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So joking aside, why has no.10 stopped the following report out?
Also other findings have been proven that there has been interference ...
Come on don't pooh pooh something that exists and don't claim it's project fear either, we get a lot of stick for EU funded surveys/investigations despite the caveat that they are not allowed to influence.
So we should let this one run a bit and let the suppressed report answer the question.
		
Click to expand...

It normally takes longer so it is quite normal for any report that addresses issues of security to be carefully read by a number of parties who may have contributed to or involved in the content.

The reality is it will not be of any material significance to the normal person; just media/pundits looking for soundbites to fill time - Grieve is simply playing stupid games.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			It normally takes longer so it is quite normal for any report that addresses issues of security to be carefully read by a number of parties who may have contributed to or involved in the content.

The reality is it will not be of any material significance to the normal person; just media/pundits looking for soundbites to fill time - Grieve is simply playing stupid games.
		
Click to expand...

Are they games and stupid, because he is a remainer ?


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## drdel (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Are they games and stupid, *because he is* a remainer ?
		
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No simply an opinion. Having been involved in a few of this type of report I'm just saying that under 'normal' circumstances the period / timing of the release of sensitive reports would not be an issue. I don't care that Grieve supports remaining but I'm beginning to question his motives and he seems to have become overly arrogant while on his media foray and believes he's the sole 'expert' on the legal matters.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			No simply an opinion. Having been involved in a few of this type of report I'm just saying that under 'normal' circumstances the period / timing of the release of sensitive reports would not be an issue. I don't care that Grieve supports remaining but I'm beginning to question his motives and he seems to have become overly arrogant while on his media foray and believes he's the sole 'expert' on the legal matters.
		
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Well he has expressed bafflement on why it has not been released following normal process and timescales - but has refused to make any comment about any aspect of the report - though he knows what it says.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well he has expressed bafflement on why it has not been released following normal process and timescales - but has refused to make any comment about any aspect of the report - though he knows what it says.
		
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If he does he would be deemed to be a "stupid, game playing leaker!" better to keep it to just "stupid" and "game player" 
Anyway I am waiting for Boris to say he hasn't seen the report and it doesn't exist and then claim that JC told Hamas all about this 20 years ago, whilst we review Jo Swinson's school voting record to cast aspersions on her, followed by a call for Sturgeon to do the royal variety show in a school uniform. 
But of course we will ignore Tommy and Nigel because they are completely sensible ......


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## Foxholer (Nov 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle! First Hogie can fight his own battles, you are only jumping in because you cant help yourself, second *many//most* is a nit picking argument, third what's it to do with golf !!! Get a grip you big twazzzer.
		
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Settle down laddie, or you'll your boiler!

None of that makes any difference to the FACT that you (deliberately? - almost certainly!) corrupted his wording! Their's a big difference between those two terms when applied to the numbers in the referendum! 

Still, it's nice to observe, from your ott, abusive reply, that you acknowledge your transgression!

All that's needed now (small hope; I expect another rant) is for you to' be a golfer' for once and admit your trangression, At least, kindly desist from repeat occurrences!


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## Hobbit (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So joking aside, why has no.10 stopped the following report out?
Also other findings have been proven that there has been interference ...
Come on don't pooh pooh something that exists and don't claim it's project fear either, we get a lot of stick for EU funded surveys/investigations despite the caveat that they are not allowed to influence.
So we should let this one run a bit and let the suppressed report answer the question.
		
Click to expand...

First of all, the process for releasing reports has to gone through. Is it right or not I don't know?

As for other findings. Has anyone had sight of the report that proves it yet, have you?

Honestly, I will be very surprised if there isn't Russian interference but how about we stay away from sensationalist rubbish till we've got the facts. Hacking into the system that records postal votes, I wouldn't be surprised... but until proven either way I'll wait before taking my place on the bandwagon.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			First of all, the process for releasing reports has to gone through. Is it right or not I don't know?

As for other findings. Has anyone had sight of the report that proves it yet, have you?

Honestly, I will be very surprised if there isn't Russian interference but how about we stay away from sensationalist rubbish till we've got the facts. Hacking into the system that records postal votes, I wouldn't be surprised... but until proven either way I'll wait before taking my place on the bandwagon.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s fair but spin your questions back the other way and then accept there is no defined answer in both directions.
I will say if there is interference then they have caused mayhem for 3 years. Plus we can stop hearing this 17.4 million stuff .. in fact that argument can be dropped right now as the majority is now questionable until proven. 
Looks like all activities should be frozen from here until this is cleared up or the mess will get worse.


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## Hobbit (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Thatâ€™s fair but spin your questions back the other way and then accept there is no defined answer in both directions.
I will say if there is interference then they have caused mayhem for 3 years. Plus we can stop hearing this 17.4 million stuff .. in fact that argument can be dropped right now as the majority is now questionable until proven.
Looks like all activities should be frozen from here until this is cleared up or the mess will get worse.
		
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Of course you are right...

What was the interference? What impact did it have, if any? Did it amount to enough to swing the balance of votes?

You don't know but you've already made up your mind... You need to dial it back and deal in facts. You may well be right but, equally, you may well be wrong. But if you say the 17.4m should drop the argument till its proven, you need to drop it till proven otherwise too. Or is it one rule for them and a different one for you?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Settle down laddie, or you'll your boiler!

None of that makes any difference to the FACT that you (deliberately? - almost certainly!) corrupted his wording! Their's a big difference between those two terms when applied to the numbers in the referendum!

Still, it's nice to observe, from your ott, abusive reply, that you acknowledge your transgression!

All that's needed now (small hope; I expect another rant) is for you to' be a golfer' for once and admit your trangression, At least, kindly desist from repeat occurrences!
		
Click to expand...

I explained it to you, if you dont accept my explanation then tough.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Of course you are right...

What was the interference? What impact did it have, if any? Did it amount to enough to swing the balance of votes?

You don't know but you've already made up your mind... You need to dial it back and deal in facts. You may well be right but, equally, you may well be wrong. But if you say the 17.4m should drop the argument till its proven, you need to drop it till proven otherwise too. Or is it one rule for them and a different one for you?
		
Click to expand...

I have made up my mind that I want to stop and clear the issue, not plough on regardless and saying itâ€™s project fear ... itâ€™s common sense. 
And yes I am dealing in facts, a question has been raised .. it needs answering before we can categorically say proceed as the data is clean. You know that


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## Hobbit (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I have made up my mind that I want to stop and clear the issue, not plough on regardless and saying itâ€™s project fear ... itâ€™s common sense.
And yes I am dealing in facts, a question has been raised .. it needs answering before we can categorically say proceed as the data is clean. You know that
		
Click to expand...

The questions have been raised, and I'm all for that. But I haven't made my mind up because I haven't heard the facts. You appear to have made up your mind before you've heard the facts. Is that wise?


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			So joking aside, why has no.10 stopped the following report out?
Also other findings have been proven that there has been interference ...
Come on don't pooh pooh something that exists and don't claim it's project fear either, we get a lot of stick for EU funded surveys/investigations despite the caveat that they are not allowed to influence.
So we should let this one run a bit and let the suppressed report answer the question.
		
Click to expand...

Having been involved with a select committee that submitted its report over 8 months ago I'm still waiting for the governments response so I think you'll find it's pretty normal for these things to drag on, but hey ho, tin foil hats on.


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			If he does he would be deemed to be a "stupid, game playing leaker!" better to keep it to just "stupid" and "game player"
Anyway I am waiting for Boris to say he hasn't seen the report and it doesn't exist and then claim that JC told Hamas all about this 20 years ago, whilst we review Jo Swinson's school voting record to cast aspersions on her, followed by a call for Sturgeon to do the royal variety show in a school uniform.
But of course we will ignore Tommy and Nigel because they are completely sensible ......
		
Click to expand...

As chair of the select committee, Grieve knows what's in the report, if it's that damning why doesn't he blow the whistle instead of insinuating that the government is being deliberate in not releasing the thing.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The questions have been raised, and I'm all for that. But I haven't made my mind up because I haven't heard the facts. You appear to have made up your mind before you've heard the facts. Is that wise?
		
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Life lesson ... stop donâ€™t carry on regardless. Sometimes the right thing to do is the toughest. 
I havenâ€™t made any decisions apart from the results have some concerns that need answers.
Simply put would You carry on building a bridge if the calculations were being questioned?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			As chair of the select committee, Grieve knows what's in the report, if it's that damning why doesn't he blow the whistle instead of insinuating that the government is being deliberate in not releasing the thing.
		
Click to expand...

He is giving Boris a chance to get it out himself.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The questions have been raised, and I'm all for that. But I haven't made my mind up because I haven't heard the facts. You appear to have made up your mind before you've heard the facts. Is that wise?
		
Click to expand...

Grieve knows the facts as laid out in the report as he Chaired the Committee but he can not disclose or discuss them in any way.  But he clearly has concerns that the issue of the report is being delayed until after the GE. We should be asking why this is the case.

Oops repeat ...


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## Hobbit (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Life lesson ... stop donâ€™t carry on regardless. Sometimes the right thing to do is the toughest.
I havenâ€™t made any decisions apart from the results have some concerns that need answers.
Simply put would You carry on building a bridge if the calculations were being questioned?
		
Click to expand...

The report is about interference in the Brexit referendum. The report is due out after the GE... what's the problem? My point to you is that you appear to have made up your mind without any knowledge of whats in the report. I have said I don't doubt there's interference but to what extent I don't know, and neither do you.

If the govt announces it will release the finding after 13st Jan, i.e. Brexit Day, I'll shout from the roof tops with you but they've said it will be released after the GE.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The report is about interference in the Brexit referendum. The report is due out after the GE... what's the problem? My point to you is that you appear to have made up your mind without any knowledge of whats in the report. I have said I don't doubt there's interference but to what extent I don't know, and neither do you.

If the govt announces it will release the finding after 13st Jan, i.e. Brexit Day, I'll shout from the roof tops with you but they've said it will be released after the GE.
		
Click to expand...

Just release it now and clear the decks ... is it going to influence people? I am sure the Russian voters wonâ€™t be phased by it ðŸ¤£.
All I am saying is be completely transparent or it will be like the bus and the payments to the NHS .. constantly brought up


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2019)

Strange, countries have been meddling in other countries elections for years and now someone wants to make an issue of it. Momentum got called out just this year for interfering in the German elections, it's the way of the world. I'm sure if it is a major issue Grieve will wait untill just before the election to get it leaked.


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## Hobbit (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Just release it now and clear the decks ... is it going to influence people? I am sure the Russian voters wonâ€™t be phased by it ðŸ¤£.
All I am saying is be completely transparent or it will be like the bus and the payments to the NHS .. constantly brought up
		
Click to expand...

Has everyone relevant in govt seen it yet? Has a considered response been formulated? Is that considered response complex? Does that considered response need a input from all parties?

As for the release it now; here's an analogy to consider. Young kid gets knocked over by a bus at one end of the High Street. People clamour for end of the High Street to be made pedestrian, and the local council accedes to those requests. Great, problem solved. But what about driver training? What about road safety education for children in schools? Has the best/safest route now been discarded? Would it have been better to stop on-street parking? Is the answer a bit of everything? You won't know if you don't give a considered response.

Release now (potentially) before a comprehensive response has been formulated? Release now when govt ministers are focused on an election? Will waiting 6 weeks make that much of a difference?

You think release now, and I don't.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 5, 2019)

grieve   obviously has an axe to grind.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1191793854334287872


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## spongebob59 (Nov 5, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1191808653361201157


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## drdel (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Just release it now and clear the decks ... is it going to influence people? I am sure the Russian voters wonâ€™t be phased by it ðŸ¤£.
All I am saying is be completely transparent or it will be like the bus and the payments to the NHS .. constantly brought up
		
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Merely a media destruction. Of no real use to the average 'joe' and we may be wise and not wish to let Russia to know what we know until the timing is right.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			Merely a media destruction. Of no real use to the average 'joe' and we may be wise and not wish to let Russia to know what we know until the timing is right.
		
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Ah the cunning leaver plans ! Just like their negotiating strategy, very cunning.


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## drdel (Nov 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Ah the cunning leaver plans ! Just like their negotiating strategy, very cunning.
		
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Nowt to do with Brexit in my view just prudent  security,  but if you insist on twisting my opinions that's your choice. Have at it.....


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## ger147 (Nov 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Has everyone relevant in govt seen it yet? Has a considered response been formulated? Is that considered response complex? Does that considered response need a input from all parties?

As for the release it now; here's an analogy to consider. Young kid gets knocked over by a bus at one end of the High Street. People clamour for end of the High Street to be made pedestrian, and the local council accedes to those requests. Great, problem solved. But what about driver training? What about road safety education for children in schools? Has the best/safest route now been discarded? Would it have been better to stop on-street parking? Is the answer a bit of everything? You won't know if you don't give a considered response.

Release now (potentially) before a comprehensive response has been formulated? Release now when govt ministers are focused on an election? Will waiting 6 weeks make that much of a difference?

You think release now, and I don't.
		
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It has been cleared for publication by all of the security services and also by the cabinet office which coordinates the reviews required by any/all government departments, it's now waiting to be cleared by the PM who has to give his sign-off before it can be published.  The report was completed in March of this year and after going thru all of the reviews above, was cleared for publication by all of those parties and sent to No.10 on 17th October.

So to summarise, it's been cleared by everyone except Boris...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2019)

drdel said:



			Nowt to do with Brexit in my view just prudent  security,  but if you insist on twisting my opinions that's your choice. Have at it.....
		
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Itâ€™s always the same old response you think they have a plan .. well they do but itâ€™s about themselves. We have had 3 yrs of this cunning plan stuff .. and it has all been shown to be rather amateur. Open your eyes to it, they are clueless and could not organise a booze up in a brewery or leg over in a brothel.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 6, 2019)

What a surprise :

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1192110130227220480


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## Foxholer (Nov 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The questions have been raised, and I'm all for that. But I haven't made my mind up because I haven't heard the facts. You appear to have made up your mind before you've heard the facts. Is that wise?
		
Click to expand...

While that's not an unreasonable view - and one I believe is probably accurate - I'm more concerned with what seems to be classic suppression of such a report by Johnson. As an advocate of 'open government', I believe such reports should be *released* asap, *not suppressed* until politically convenient (or, in reality, 'least inconvenient'!)! It's part of 'the Press's responsibility' to challenge such manipulation imo - and by 'Press', I include the likes of TV and Radio reporting/comment too.


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## drdel (Nov 7, 2019)

I see the EU growth forecasts have been reduced further as they believe the internal market (which they have relied upon) is shrinking and Germany's growth of an historic 2% has pretty much gone negative.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see the EU growth forecasts have been reduced further as they believe the internal market (which they have relied upon) is shrinking and Germany's growth of an historic 2% has pretty much gone negative.
		
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I wouldn't believe forecasts...


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## robinthehood (Nov 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see the EU growth forecasts have been reduced further as they believe the internal market (which they have relied upon) is shrinking and Germany's growth of an historic 2% has pretty much gone negative.
		
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Project fear ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚


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## Old Skier (Nov 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wouldn't believe forecasts...

Click to expand...

You looked outside then


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## drdel (Nov 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Project fear ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚
		
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I noted and posted the comments from a German economist purely as it a subject of interest - its entirely up to you whether you consider it a matter of 'fear'.


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## drdel (Nov 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wouldn't believe forecasts...

Click to expand...

Did I endorse it, just a interesting comment from respected German economist? There are BoE forecasts of growth beyond Brexit out this week and yet today a BoE is quoted that growth is going to be lower - so take your pick.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			I noted and posted the comments from a German economist purely as it a subject of interest - its entirely up to you whether you consider it a matter of 'fear'.
		
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Might have been a Russian influencer ...


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## robinthehood (Nov 7, 2019)

drdel said:



			Did I endorse it, just a interesting comment from respected German economist? There are BoE forecasts of growth beyond Brexit out this week and yet today a BoE is quoted that growth is going to be lower - so take your pick.
		
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Yes growth,  just less of it.... still growth though.  I guess it's how you spin it ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Might have been a Russian influencer ...
		
Click to expand...

Corbyn?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Project fear ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Yes, they have some things to fear when the cash cow dries up and the budget bleeds them.


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## robinthehood (Nov 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, they have some things to fear when the cash cow dries up and the budget bleeds them.
		
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Yes we are single handedly propping up the entire EU....


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## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes we are single handedly propping up the entire EU....
		
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Are we! well you live and learn.   I thought there were a few of us but some were in recession and the many snouts in the trough were still hungry.


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## robinthehood (Nov 7, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Are we! well you live and learn.   I thought there were a few of us but some were in recession and the many snouts in the trough were still hungry.
		
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OK boomer ðŸ˜‰


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## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			OK boomer ðŸ˜‰
		
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Boomer! What kind of comment is that?  You naughty little Twazzock ðŸ¤­


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 8, 2019)

https://www.wanderingeducators.com/best/stories/pride-of-brexit

Pride of Brexit.
Three Lions washed up on Dover beach.
Powerful stuff.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.wanderingeducators.com/best/stories/pride-of-brexit

Pride of Brexit.
Three Lions washed up on Dover beach.
Powerful stuff.
		
Click to expand...

Reverse for me, those Lions are what the EU has reduced our once proud country into, drowned in beurocracy, drained of self pride, dragged under by a millstone around our necks.  Time to set ourselves free and do what we do best, face up to the world and lead by example.
Rule Britania!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 8, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Reverse for me, those Lions are what the EU has reduced our once proud country into, drowned in beurocracy, drained of self pride, dragged under by a millstone around our necks.  Time to set ourselves free and do what we do best, face up to the world and lead by example.
Rule Britania!
		
Click to expand...

Jingoistic twaddle with a foot in the past and no historical understanding.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Jingoistic twaddle with a foot in the past and no historical understanding.
		
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And Dooms link was what exactly ðŸ™„
Never mind Harpic old chap, most socialists hate their countries so I expect little else.


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## Mudball (Nov 9, 2019)

Merkel says "No wall that keeps people out and restricts freedom is so high... that it cannot be broken down,"

Berlin Wall anniversary: Merkel warns democracy is not 'self-evident' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50361173

Little does she say about new walls around US and Brexit.   Maybe 30 years from now we will look at our â€˜beautiful wallâ€™ and wonder what could have happened if we stayed ....


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Merkel says "No wall that keeps people out and restricts freedom is so high... that it cannot be broken down,"

Berlin Wall anniversary: Merkel warns democracy is not 'self-evident' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50361173

Little does she say about new walls around US and Brexit.   Maybe 30 years from now we will look at our â€˜beautiful wallâ€™ and wonder what could have happened if we stayed ....
		
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And she speaks on behalf of one of the most protectionist wall building outfits in the world.  She is correct that it cannot stand the test of time and will fail as it attempts to homogonise nations.


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## Mudball (Nov 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And she speaks on behalf of one of the *most protectionist wall building outfits *in the world.  She is correct that it cannot stand the test of time and will fail as it attempts to homogonise nations.
		
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.. which one would that be?


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## Hobbit (Nov 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And she speaks on behalf of one of the most protectionist wall building outfits in the world.  She is correct that it cannot stand the test of time and will fail as it attempts to homogonise nations.
		
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Mudball said:



			.. which one would that be?
		
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Wimpey?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 10, 2019)

Mudball said:



			.. which one would that be?
		
Click to expand...

Who do you think it isðŸ™„


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## Mudball (Nov 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Who do you think it isðŸ™„
		
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if it is the second largest trading bloc in the world  and it protects its own.. would you rather be in it or outside it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2019)

Farage has told Johnson that his Withdrawal Agreement is BRINO.  And now Johnson has told Farage that he will negotiate a _Super Canada + _deal and to be able to do so he will change some of what has been agreed in the Withdrawal Agreement.

Farage says that's good enough for him - if Johnson is true to his word - and that he has out-played the Tory party.  Good Ol' Nigel.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 11, 2019)

Mudball said:



			if it is the second largest trading bloc in the world  and it protects its own.. would you rather be in it or outside it?
		
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Outside it due to its aspirations beyond being a trading block.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Farage has told Johnson that his Withdrawal Agreement is BRINO.  And now Johnson has told Farage that he will negotiate a _Super Canada + _deal *and to be able to do so he will change some of what has been agreed in the Withdrawal Agreement.*

Farage says that's good enough for him - if Johnson is true to his word - and that he has out-played the Tory party.  Good Ol' Nigel.
		
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Is that a direct quote or what you believe?


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## ger147 (Nov 11, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is that a direct quote or what you believe?
		
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He's checking the translation with his barber...


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## harpo_72 (Nov 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Outside it due to its aspirations beyond being a trading block.
		
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Marginalisation is what you want, when do you want it ... a few months ago! 
ðŸ¤£


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## SocketRocket (Nov 11, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Marginalisation is what you want, when do you want it ... a few months ago! 
ðŸ¤£
		
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I am quite content with the UK being marginalised from the EU as you may have guessed by now. Whether its a few months ago or a few months hence suits me ðŸ¤Ÿ


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Farage has told Johnson that his Withdrawal Agreement is BRINO.  And now Johnson has told Farage that he will negotiate a _Super Canada + _deal and to be able to do so he will change some of what has been agreed in the Withdrawal Agreement.

Farage says that's good enough for him - if Johnson is true to his word - and that he has out-played the Tory party.  Good Ol' Nigel.
		
Click to expand...

Care to explain what you're on about?  Tell us which is fact and which is your opinion aka conspiracy theory.


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## Mudball (Nov 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am quite content with the UK being marginalised from the EU as you may have guessed by now. Whether its a few months ago or a few months hence suits me ðŸ¤Ÿ
		
Click to expand...

In reality we may get what the FT calls Brino >> interesting/biased/Fake news/opinion/fear  here >> 
https://www.ft.com/content/9dc1703a-faa6-11e9-98fd-4d6c20050229


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Farage has told Johnson that his Withdrawal Agreement is BRINO.  And now Johnson has told Farage that he will negotiate a _Super Canada + _deal and to be able to do so he will change some of what has been agreed in the Withdrawal Agreement.

Farage says that's good enough for him - if Johnson is true to his word - and that he has out-played the Tory party.  Good Ol' Nigel.
		
Click to expand...

There are 2 other important points that Farage learnt from Boris though

1. He will insist the terms of the deal are concluded by the end of 2020
2. If 1 is not achieved we will conclude discussions with no deal at that point

Farage said that he was happy as that resolution was as close as he could hope for from Boris


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Is that a direct quote or what you believe?
		
Click to expand...

It was what Farage said.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Care to explain what you're on about?  Tell us which is fact and which is your opinion aka conspiracy theory.
		
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This is what Farage said.  Just go listen to the interview if you want the full wording and context.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

chrisd said:



			There are 2 other important points that Farage learnt from Boris though

1. He will insist the terms of the deal are concluded by the end of 2020
2. If 1 is not achieved we will conclude discussions with no deal at that point

Farage said that he was happy as that resolution was as close as he could hope for from Boris
		
Click to expand...

Yes - was there anything I said that was incorrect or deduction?


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - was there anything I said that was incorrect or deduction?
		
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Only that, if you knew the 2 points I mentioned, readers may have felt mislead and the 2 points were, in the speech by Farage, in his decision to pull candidates, vital, as it showed a change of policy from Boris that would potentially lead to a cleaner Brexit


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 12, 2019)

chrisd said:



*There are 2 other important points that Farage learnt from Boris though*

1. He will insist the terms of the deal are concluded by the end of 2020
2. If 1 is not achieved we will conclude discussions with no deal at that point

Farage said that he was happy as that resolution was as close as he could hope for from Boris
		
Click to expand...

Boris says a lot of things, several of which don't turn out to happen when reality hits. Bless Farage for wanting to believe him but if I was a mad conspiracy theory I would say Farage is going along with this as this just gives Farage more ammunition to restart the Brexit party and get more publicity when it turns out what Boris would happen said does not completely materialize.


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Boris says a lot of things, several of which don't turn out to happen when reality hits. Bless Farage for wanting to believe him but if I was a mad conspiracy theory I would say Farage is going along with this as this just gives Farage more ammunition to restart the Brexit party and get more publicity when it turns out what Boris would happen said does not completely materialize.
		
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Farage is going along with it imo to avoid being blamed for splitting the Tory vote and, either delivering a hung parliament or putting Labour in to power


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## robinthehood (Nov 12, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Farage is going along with it imo to avoid being blamed for splitting the Tory vote and, either delivering a hung parliament or putting Labour in to power
		
Click to expand...

Farage is a knob and Boris is a liar
 2 facts and not project fear.
They'd make a good team.
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## robinthehood (Nov 12, 2019)

Lowest economic growth for a decade.
Nice.


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Farage is a knob and Boris is a liar
 2 facts and not project fear.
They'd make a good team.
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

But at least a better team than Corbyn and McDonnell ðŸ¤”


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was what Farage said.
		
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Sorry Iâ€™m confused, how can boris change some of the detail in the WA without going back to the EU for further negotiations.
He has his deal, so from his pov itâ€™s his deal or No Deal.


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry Iâ€™m confused, how can boris change some of the detail in the WA without going back to the EU for further negotiations.
He has his deal, so from his pov itâ€™s his deal or No Deal.
		
Click to expand...

This is about the trade agreement  which follows. If the EU try and hang it out for a few years we will leave without a deal


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

chrisd said:



			This is about the trade agreement  which follows. If the EU try and hang it out for a few years we will leave without a deal
		
Click to expand...

So thereâ€™s no guarantee he can get what he wants and then weâ€™d have the uncertainty again of leaving with No Deal, Iâ€™d be surprised if boris would be willing to show his position this far in advance.


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## Mudball (Nov 12, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But at least a better team than Corbyn and McDonnell ðŸ¤”
		
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What a shame..: we are choosing between Liar+knobhead v/s another one of the same.. how did we reach here?  
as they say â€˜We (the country) deserve the politicians that we getâ€™


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 12, 2019)

Mudball said:



			What a shame..: we are choosing between Liar+knobhead v/s another one of the same.. how did we reach here? 
as they say â€˜We (the country) deserve the politicians that we getâ€™
		
Click to expand...

Very few Scots voted for those four...â€¦â€¦..Scotland [the country] did get the politicians that we voted for and thank goodness they are a darn sight better than those four + their cohorts. That is the real shame.


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## Foxholer (Nov 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Lowest economic growth for a decade.
Nice.
		
Click to expand...

But at least growth! Which is better than Germany's Q2 value (-ve) - and likely to be better than its Q3 value, which if negative again means technical recession! consecutive


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Lowest economic growth for a decade.
Nice.
		
Click to expand...

Better, under the current conditions, than Germany's recession.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry Iâ€™m confused, how can boris change some of the detail in the WA without going back to the EU for further negotiations.
He has his deal, so from his pov itâ€™s his deal or No Deal.
		
Click to expand...

It's what Farage said in the interview...ask him.

In fact did I not hear this morning that Johnson was saying last night - when talking about his delight at getting Farage to back down - that he succeeded by suggesting/offering Farage a Super Canada Plus type deal - might just have been Canada Plus.  And what Farage was saying about it was for that to come about Johnson would have to move away from some of what he has agreed - specifically in respect of regulatory alignment - the main thing that for Farage made Johnson's WA a BRINO WA. I think.

I thought it a bit weird that Johnson has said this - as all serious negotiators know that you don't reveal your key objective before negotiations get underway.

Anyway.


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's what Farage said in the interview...ask him.

In fact did I not hear this morning that Johnson was saying last night - when talking about his delight at getting Farage to back down - that he succeeded by suggesting/offering Farage a Super Canada Plus type deal - might just have been Canada Plus.  And what Farage was saying about it was for that to come about Johnson would have to move away from some of what he has agreed - specifically in respect of regulatory alignment - the main thing that for Farage made Johnson's WA a BRINO WA. I think.

I thought it a bit weird that Johnson has said this - as all serious negotiators know that you don't reveal your key objective before negotiations get underway.

Anyway.
		
Click to expand...

But Johnsons position is still backed by the option of NO DEAL


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## robinthehood (Nov 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			But at least growth! Which is better than Germany's Q2 value (-ve) - and likely to be better than its Q3 value, which if negative again means technical recession! consecutive
		
Click to expand...

Yeah great probably better than a whole host of other countries too.
Doesn't stop it being piss poor.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

chrisd said:



			But Johnsons position is still backed by the option of NO DEAL
		
Click to expand...

yes it may well be - I was only commenting upon what Farage has said that Johnson has horse-traded for Farage's reverse ferret - though whether he can actually deliver that to Farage is another matter.

And so still on a day-by-day basis what Brexit means changes - even for those who purported to have clear ideas of what it is.  So as soon as Johnson defines Brexit - his fellow lead-leaver Farage tells him he's talking rubbish - that what Johnson is saying is Brexit is not Brexit at all.  But these guys are the two most prominent and listened to Leave leaders - the two individuals that I suggest the majority of voters took the word of as truth and voted accordingly.  And yet these guys cannot agree the truth.

And still we are still told that all 17.4m people who voted to Leave knew what they were voting for.  Well I suggest that we ALL now know what Brexit means.  It mean '_It_'.  And so what we have been hearing, and will do so endlessly from Leave proponents and voters over up to 12th December, is that we must get _It _done.  And that is pretty much it.  Doesn't actually matter what '_It_' is - _It _just must be done.

We are been dragged towards the Exit by people who can't agree what's the other side of the door - but it doesn't matter - the UK must be dragged or shoved through that door.  And meanwhile, under pressure from the Right-wing press for perhaps suggesting the truth about Johnson's WA, Farage jumps into bed with the Tories...those he had previously derided as the elite.

Hells teeth.  It would be almost funny were it not so serious.


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			yes it may well be - I was only commenting upon what Farage has said that Johnson has horse-traded for Farage's reverese ferret - though whether he can actually deliver that to Farage is another matter.
		
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I'm not sure any horse trade was necessary. Farage was coming under fire from Brexiteers for potentially stopping Brexit by dividing the Tory vote and thus letting other parties gain Tory seats


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm not sure any horse trade was necessary. Farage was coming under fire from Brexiteers for potentially stopping Brexit by dividing the Tory vote and thus letting other parties gain Tory seats
		
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Indeed he was - because he had the temerity to suggest that Johnson's WA Brexit was rubbish - and when he started to describe just what Johnson's Brexit actually meant - what Brexit might actually _mean _- he was told by the Right Wing Press to zip-it!


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed he was - because he had the temerity to suggest that Johnson's WA Brexit was rubbish - and when he started to describe just what Johnson's Brexit actually meant - what Brexit might actually _mean _- he was told by the Right Wing Press to zip-it!
		
Click to expand...

So the conclusion is...

If you voted remain you must be on the Left of the political spectrum, and, of course, if you voted to leave you must be to the Right. Therein lies the misconception !


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 12, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I'm not sure any horse trade was necessary. *Farage was coming under fire from Brexiteers* for potentially stopping Brexit by dividing the Tory vote and thus letting other parties gain Tory seats
		
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More likely under fire from his shady backers and The Kremlin....


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## woody69 (Nov 12, 2019)

Farage screwing people over again? Who would have thought it...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194164661429719040


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Farage screwing people over again? Who would have thought it...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194164661429719040

Click to expand...

I genuinely donâ€™t understand what it is people believe in this man, his career is littered with failure.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 12, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			More likely under fire from his shady backers and The Kremlin....

Click to expand...

Not forgetting the Johnson/Farage puppetmasterâ€¦...â€¦.The Donald.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			So the conclusion is...

If you voted remain you must be on the Left of the political spectrum, and, of course, if you voted to leave you must be to the Right. Therein lies the misconception !
		
Click to expand...

Don't know how you draw that conclusion from what anyone has said. 

Both Johnson and Farage seem pretty clearly to be politically right of centre and voters from traditionally across the political spectrum believed them and in them. 

Now it's as if we have the Leave team Manager saying that the team's tactics in the game should be X, and the team Skipper is saying they should be Y.  Meanwhile the team only wants to win, but if they keep getting confusing and contradictory messages from the Manager and the Skipper then they get confused and angry - and at some point one is dumped - usually quite unceremoniously or with effusive platitudes about a job well done.  Well I think I know the one currently being dumped.  Pity many of the team love their skipper and believe in him more than their manager, and it is the skipper who is being dumped...Not sure that these things always end well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Farage screwing people over again? Who would have thought it...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194164661429719040

Click to expand...

And Farage told Eddie Mair that the candidates wouldn't be getting any refund...Happy Families


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## Foxholer (Nov 12, 2019)

drdel said:



*So the conclusion is*...

If you voted remain you must be on the Left of the political spectrum, and, of course, if you voted to leave you must be to the Right. Therein lies the misconception !
		
Click to expand...

Might be yours, but certainly not mine! Though I do (with no evidence) suspect that there's likely to be a SLIGHT correlation.


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## IanM (Nov 12, 2019)

Possibly some truth increasingly, but historically it was very different


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't know how you draw that conclusion from what anyone has said. 

Both Johnson and Farage seem pretty clearly to be politically right of centre and voters from traditionally across the political spectrum believed them and in them. 

Now it's as if we have the Leave team Manager saying that the team's tactics in the game should be X, and the team Skipper is saying they should be Y.  Meanwhile the team only wants to win, but if they keep getting confusing and contradictory messages from the Manager and the Skipper then they get confused and angry - and at some point one is dumped - usually quite unceremoniously or with effusive platitudes about a job well done.  Well I think I know the one currently being dumped.  Pity many of the team love their skipper and believe in him more than their manager, and it is the skipper who is being dumped...Not sure that these things always end well.
		
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Yes, Tom Watson could confirm that's correct.


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Might be yours, but certainly not mine! Though I do (with no evidence) suspect that there's likely to be a SLIGHT correlation.
		
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You misread - or I wasn't clear with my somewhat tongue in cheek comment to SILH.

I can't see what there is to disagree with - I was suggesting from the general/common stance in comments that Remain = Left and Leave = Right. but my last qualifying sentence said IMO that is a misconception !!


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 12, 2019)

woody69 said:



			Farage screwing people over again? Who would have thought it...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194164661429719040

Click to expand...

BBC are reporting that a lot of the profiles on Twitter that are claiming to be candidates owed money by Farage/Brexit Party are fake/satirical.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, Tom Watson could confirm that's correct.
		
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What has anything about Tom Watson got to do with Farage and Johnson...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			You misread - or I wasn't clear with my somewhat tongue in cheek comment to SILH.

I can't see what there is to disagree with - I was suggesting from the general/common stance in comments that Remain = Left and Leave = Right. but my last qualifying sentence said IMO that is a misconception !!
		
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But what you suggest is not true and I don't hear anyone actually really saying there is such a simple division.  In fact all commentators and everyone here I think are aware, and have been so since the referendum, that Leave/Remain allegiances do not align with traditional Right/Left politics.  We all know that they don't.  

That in general the traditional Right Wing media align with Leave and Left Wing media with Remain is a different matter - though even then there are variations since some traditionally right of centre newspapers (such as The Times and FT) at least for the referendum tended towards Remain


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't know how you draw that conclusion from what anyone has said.

Both Johnson and Farage seem pretty clearly to be politically right of centre and voters from traditionally across the political spectrum believed them and in them.

Now it's as if we have the Leave team Manager saying that the team's tactics in the game should be X, and the team Skipper is saying they should be Y.  Meanwhile the team only wants to win, but if they keep getting confusing and contradictory messages from the Manager and the Skipper then they get confused and angry - and at some point one is dumped - usually quite unceremoniously or with effusive platitudes about a job well done.  Well I think I know the one currently being dumped.  Pity many of the team love their skipper and believe in him more than their manager, and it is the skipper who is being dumped...Not sure that these things always end well.
		
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From your statement I take it that Corbyn and all the other staunch Labour leavers are really fanatical right wing loons. That's cleared that up.


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			From your statement I take it that Corbyn and all the other staunch Labour leavers are really fanatical right wing loons. That's cleared that up.
		
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Well for JC it is open to debate since he has been a very strong advocate of getting the UK out of the EU throughout his political career - up to the point of becoming leader of the opposition and being asked to take *A* position !


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			From your statement I take it that Corbyn and all the other staunch Labour leavers are really fanatical right wing loons. That's cleared that up.
		
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Yes and Tony Ben along with them.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What has anything about Tom Watson got to do with Farage and Johnson...
		
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You know , Team  Manager saying X and Team Skipper saying Y. Surely that's exactly what's happened between Corbyn and Watson.


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2019)

Funny how those Momentum folk are so quick to put a label on people  and just in case - It's said in fun.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Funny how those Momentum folk are so quick to put a label on people  and just in case - It's said in fun.
		
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Yes, seems like Genghis Khan is way left of me. ðŸ˜œ


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You know , Team  Manager saying X and Team Skipper saying Y. Surely that's exactly what's happened between Corbyn and Watson.
		
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Yes - but I'm not talking about Corbyn and Watson.  I'm talking about the two principal players in the Leave campaign - the two individuals that a lot of the public would have heard and listened to in respect of what they might expect from voting to leave the EU.  So who do they listen to now?


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - but I'm not talking about Corbyn and Watson.  I'm talking about the two principal players in the Leave campaign - the two individuals that a lot of the public would have heard and listened to in respect of what they might expect from voting to leave the EU.  So who do they listen to now?
		
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Surely the only 'official' player is Johnson? What has Farage done in the last 3 years apart from being the noisy, disruptive child?


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## Old Skier (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Surely the only 'official' player is Johnson? What has Farage done in the last 3 years apart from being the noisy, disruptive child?
		
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I think he runs a rant radio show


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Surely the only 'official' player is Johnson? What has Farage done in the last 3 years apart from being the noisy, disruptive child?
		
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Created a Party that could be beneficial or disastrous to the GE, and the above.


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Created a Party that could be beneficial or disastrous to the GE, and the above.

Click to expand...

Whats beneficial to one party in one constituency might work against the same party in the next constituency. Bearing in mind the impact in the Euro elections, and the fact they're targeting Labour seats and marginals there could be quite an impact.

Maybe Farage is hoping for a hung parliament and enough Brexit Party seats to form an alliance with the Tories.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Whats beneficial to one party in one constituency might work against the same party in the next constituency. Bearing in mind the impact in the Euro elections, and the fact they're targeting Labour seats and marginals there could be quite an impact.

Maybe Farage is hoping for a hung parliament and enough Brexit Party seats to form an alliance with the Tories.
		
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Whatever happens heâ€™ll make sure heâ€™s centre of attention.


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## Foxholer (Nov 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			You misread - or I wasn't clear with my somewhat tongue in cheek comment to SILH.

I can't see what there is to disagree with - I was suggesting from the general/common stance in comments that Remain = Left and Leave = Right. but my last qualifying sentence said IMO that is a misconception !!
		
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You should consider using smileys then!!

Be honest - like a golfer! It's TIC if you don't get away with it; successful 'propoganda' if you do! 

You are abusing your rather unique position!

All IMO of course!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You should consider using smileys then!!

Be honest - like a golfer! It's TIC if you don't get away with it; successful 'propoganda' if you do! 

You are abusing your rather unique position!

All IMO of course! 

Click to expand...

His opinion is fair, its not a given that people who voted leave are of a right wing disposition and remain of a left wing  one.  Many people don't fit squarely into either of those categories but rather float between them on certain issues. What exactly defines the characteristics of a Right or Left wing person anyway, I think it's rather subjective and often used as a blunt instrument against people.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - but I'm not talking about Corbyn and Watson.  I'm talking about the two principal players in the Leave campaign - the two individuals that a lot of the public would have heard and listened to in respect of what they might expect from voting to leave the EU.  So who do they listen to now?
		
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My point is that there is nothing unique in their relationship in politics and it's similar to that of Corbyn and Watson. Its not unusual for politicians to be in the same camp but with different aspirations for the desired outcomes.


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			You should consider using smileys then!!

Be honest - like a golfer! It's TIC if you don't get away with it; successful 'propoganda' if you do! 

You are abusing your rather unique position!

All IMO of course! 

Click to expand...

Sorry . I'm not aware of any 'unique' position ! and I'm not in the business of promoting propaganda (with an 'a') for any person or organisation!  As I said twas just a bit of a windup/fuel for SILH - which is, of course, surplus to requirements.


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## Foxholer (Nov 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			Sorry . I'm not aware of any 'unique' position ! and I'm not in the business of promoting propaganda (with an 'a') for any person or organisation!  As I said *twas* just a bit of a windup/fuel for SILH - which is, of course, surplus to requirements. 

Click to expand...

Yeah! Right!

PS. I thought I'd corrected  that 'a'!

And, btw/fwiw, it's "''twas"!


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## Leftie (Nov 12, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yeah! Right!

PS. I thought I'd corrected  that 'a'!

And, btw/fwiw, it's "''twas"! 

Click to expand...


Shouldn't that be 'twas!?


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## Foxholer (Nov 13, 2019)

Leftie said:



			Shouldn't that be 'twas!?
		
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Indeed it should've been! Sticky keyboard (superfluous single quote/apostrophe) strikes again!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I think he runs a rant radio show
		
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The only people who would rant on his LBC radio show were Leave voters...he doesn't do the show at the moment.  

Any Remain voters that would bother phoning in would often simply give up through not having their questions answered - or he'd finish the call if they were being too persistent in their questioning and scepticism.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Surely the only 'official' player is Johnson? What has Farage done in the last 3 years apart from being the noisy, disruptive child?
		
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He has been the noisy, disruptive child that has shaped the thinking and actions of many of the electorate - you only had to listen to his LBC Radio Show to know that as a fact  Then listen to many current callers to any LBC show to know that many continue worship at the feet of Farage and are ardent believers in the gospel according to Farage.  It's not a book I have any faith in...


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He has been the noisy, disruptive child that has shaped the thinking and actions of many of the electorate - you only had to listen to his LBC Radio Show to know that as a fact  Then listen to many current callers to any LBC show to know that many continue worship at the feet of Farage and are ardent believers in the gospel according to Farage.  It's not a book I have any faith in...

Click to expand...

Really? You're using the number of listeners of LBC, many of which tune in specifically to his show, as a significant number? Really? Surely you know that that is nowhere near a true indicator.


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## robinthehood (Nov 13, 2019)

Elon musk states brexit uncertainty the reason he didn't choose UK as a site for his European gigafactory.
I'm sure someone paid him to say that ðŸ˜‰


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Really? You're using the number of listeners of LBC, many of which tune in specifically to his show, as a significant number? Really? Surely you know that that is nowhere near a true indicator.
		
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I have been listening to Farageistas phone in to LBC for 4 years now.  And as I mentioned - not just to his programme - you can tune any time of any day 24hrs a day, 7 days a week, and if the topic is being discussed they will call.  And more often than not they will use a Farage Talking-Point or refer to him - he has most certainly shaped _their _thinking.  It is necessary for me to not comment about the lack of understanding many demonstrate about what Farage is actually on about and what it might mean.

We know that there are indeed a significant number of followers of the Farage-ist cause (because IMO it _is_ all about him) - though hopefully that number is now dropping given Farage's reverse ferret and walk-back this week.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have been listening to Farageistas phone in to LBC for 4 years now.  And as I mentioned - not just to his programme - you can tune any time of any day 24hrs a day, 7 days a week, and if the topic is being discussed they will call.  And more often than not they will use a Farage Talking-Point or refer to him - he has most certainly shaped _their _thinking.  It is necessary for me to not comment about the lack of understanding many demonstrate about what Farage is actually on about and what it might mean.

We know that there are indeed a significant number of followers of the Farage-ist cause (because IMO it _is_ all about him) - though hopefully that number is now dropping given Farage's reverse ferret and walk-back this week.
		
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I do find it hard to understand your stance on Farage. It seems you listen in to his radio program and dislike him and people that phone in, why do you do it as you disagree with just about everything he says, it seems like a form of mental flagulation.  I would take a guess that you are the only person on this forum who tunes into him. I would rather stick pins in my eyes than to listen to a radio program hosted by say John McDonnel or Jeremy Corbyn let alone Boris Johnson.    For the sake of your sanity resist it.


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## Foxholer (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He has been the noisy, disruptive child that has shaped the thinking and actions of many of the electorate - you only had to listen to his LBC Radio Show to know that as a fact  Then listen to many current callers to any LBC show to know that many continue worship at the feet of Farage and are ardent believers in the gospel according to Farage.  It's not a book I have any faith in...

Click to expand...

Farage leads a 'single issue' party that will disappear once Brexit happens!

I actually suspect he is unable to field candidates in very many seats or support/fund a full campaign, so has spun (something he's very good at) this explanation. The Brexit Party would probably be more honestly named The Farage Party!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 13, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Farage leads a 'single issue' party that will disappear once Brexit happens!

I actually suspect he is unable to field candidates in very many seats or support/fund a full campaign, so has spun (something he's very good at) this explanation. The Brexit Party would probably be more honestly named The Farage Party!
		
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Heâ€™ll only disappear if the media stop feeding him to the people, run up to the GE we have BBC QT Leader specials, whose the first, Farage, not an MP, not even a candidate in the GE and he gets airtime.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I do find it hard to understand your stance on Farage. It seems you listen in to his radio program and dislike him and people that phone in, why do you do it as you disagree with just about everything he says, it seems like a form of mental flagulation.  I would take a guess that you are the only person on this forum who tunes into him. I would rather stick pins in my eyes than to listen to a radio program hosted by say John McDonnel or Jeremy Corbyn let alone Boris Johnson.    For the sake of your sanity resist it.
		
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I find it very difficult to believe that you don't get why some such as I dislike Farage's stance and views expressed.  I don't dislike the guy and I don't dislike the people who support him - that phone in to speak with him or to other presenters.  That at times I might despair to myself as I listen to them - well that is my prerogative.  But I listen to try and understand where he is coming from - and I do get much of it.  However what he then concludes in respect of the EU and the Elite I often consider disingenuous (at best).

It's too late for now but I think that his show should have been required listening for all Leave voters who absolutely believe that all the 17.4million who voted to leave knew just what they were voting for - it's a bit of an eye-opener


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## chrisd (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I find it very difficult to believe that you don't get why some such as I dislike Farage's stance and views expressed.  I don't dislike the guy and I don't dislike the people who support him - that phone in to speak with him or to other presenters.  That at times I might despair to myself as I listen to them - well that is my prerogative.  But I listen to try and understand where he is coming from - and I do get much of it.  However what he then concludes in respect of the EU and the Elite I often consider disingenuous (at best).

It's too late for now but I think that his show should have been required listening for all Leave voters who absolutely believe that all the 17.4million who voted to leave knew just what they were voting for - it's a bit of an eye-opener 

Click to expand...

What? Like all the Remoaners knew what they were voting for? Like everyone knows what they are voting for in the general election ? Like everyone knows what they are voting for at the golf club when the annual accounts are approved?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I find it very difficult to believe that you don't get why some such as I dislike Farage's stance and views expressed.  I don't dislike the guy and I don't dislike the people who support him - that phone in to speak with him or to other presenters.  That at times I might despair to myself as I listen to them - well that is my prerogative.  But I listen to try and understand where he is coming from - and I do get much of it.  However what he then concludes in respect of the EU and the Elite I often consider disingenuous (at best).

It's too late for now but I think that his show should have been required listening for all Leave voters who absolutely believe that all the 17.4million who voted to leave knew just what they were voting for - it's a bit of an eye-opener 

Click to expand...

I still dont get why you keep listening to it, if youve not made your mind up about him after four years you never  will. 

Does anyone believe all  17.4 million people knew what they were voting for or if all Remain voters knew likewise. It just doesnt matter as its not a prerequisite for voting.  The vote was cast and a result declared, its over now and needs putting behind us.


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I find it very difficult to believe that you don't get why some such as I dislike Farage's stance and views expressed.  I don't dislike the guy and I don't dislike the people who support him - that phone in to speak with him or to other presenters.  That at times I might despair to myself as I listen to them - well that is my prerogative.  But I listen to try and understand where he is coming from - and I do get much of it.  However what he then concludes in respect of the EU and the Elite I often consider disingenuous (at best).

It's too late for now but I think that his show should have been required listening for all Leave voters who absolutely believe that all the 17.4million who voted to leave knew just what they were voting for - it's a bit of an eye-opener 

Click to expand...

Mmm, my experience is that there's a fair few Remainers who didn't know what they were voting for. I even have an aunt who said she voted Remain because she "likes that nice Mr Cameron." Your bias is horrendous. I think O'Brien show should have been required listening. What an obnoxious toad of a man. I'd equate him with Farage in the blink of an eye.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, my experience is that there's a fair few Remainers who didn't know what they were voting for. I even have an aunt who said she voted Remain because she "likes that nice Mr Cameron." Your bias is horrendous. I think O'Brien show should have been required listening. What an obnoxious toad of a man. I'd equate him with Farage in the blink of an eye.
		
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I knew exactly what I was voting for - for the day after the referendum.  The same as the day before.

What then might happen and develop at least we would be on the inside with some degree of influence.  If things subsequently changed in a way that I did not like then in time we'd have another opportunity to decide whether to stay in or not.  We'd have regular 5 yearly opportunities for Westminster and EU parliament elections to make sure that the parties wanting to be our government knew just what we wanted of the EU.  And they would have to listen.

My bias is indeed perhaps verging on absolute.  I think leaving is a terrible mistake with misunderstood and misrepresented reasons and consequences of doing so - where we will lose things that we currently have with little tangible benefit for the ordinary individual in return; and with the risk of consequences that are most likely to harm only those less able to cope.

Yes - I will lose some freedoms of travel, and perhaps my pension will be hit - however I am very fortunate to be able to afford holidays and to have a half decent pension fund.  I am quite comfortable. Leaving will not really affect me significantly.  But very many are not so fortunate - and when they feel the pain with little of what they expected in return - our divided society will hurt even more and the anger will grow.  My concerns for the future are more social than economic - in time the country will find it's new place wherever that is.  I am less certain about society.

On O'Brien - O'Brien can be abrupt and condescending - but he aims to have the debate based upon fact and truth - and he will not hesitate to expose those who use falsehoods and unsubstantiated fact to support their arguments.  He is clear that his sympathy sits with the lied to and he is highly critical of the liars and deceivers.  Why do government ministers go on Ferrari and not on O'Brien? - because they know they will be exposed by O'Brien.

I am sorry that you find my bias horrendous - it is what it is - but my view is simply driven by concern.


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## drdel (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I find it very difficult to believe that you don't get why some such as I dislike Farage's stance and views expressed.  I don't dislike the guy and I don't dislike the people who support him - that phone in to speak with him or to other presenters.  That at times I might despair to myself as I listen to them - well that is my prerogative.  But I listen to try and understand where he is coming from - and I do get much of it.  However what he then concludes in respect of the EU and the Elite I often consider disingenuous (at best).

It's too late for now but I think that his show should have been required listening for all Leave voters who absolutely believe that all the 17.4million who voted to leave knew just what they were voting for - it's a bit of an eye-opener 

Click to expand...

OK. So the 2m listeners to LBC must be mad as they tune into and obviously worship Farage and Rees-Mogg (I understand you merely tune-in, so as to 'monitor' Farage).

But this stuff is just going over and over old ground that has been done for 3years and 16+k posts. Farage contributed to getting a referendum and was a significant player in the debate. However, the UK has now taken steps to leave the EU (under two PM's who you have also continuously rubbished!). Perhaps we could just focus the discussion on what we  think the future might hold and how the EU is panning out while France and Germany are having a bit of a tiff and Italy continues to become more of a basket case. Germany has more people visiting food banks than UK and is still in negative growth. etc.etc.

For example which countries in or out of the EU do you/we think would be good for the UK and why?

There's plenty in the Brexit arena to discuss but we seem to prefer adopting the stereotypical British Islander by our bitching about the past and rubbishing personalities. There is plenty of opportunities and fuel on the GE thread to lambaste our daft MPs and media!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, my experience is that there's a fair few Remainers who didn't know what they were voting for. I even have an aunt who said she voted Remain because she "likes that nice Mr Cameron." Your bias is horrendous. I think O'Brien show should have been required listening. What an obnoxious toad of a man. I'd equate him with Farage in the blink of an eye.
		
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Thatâ€™s true .. quite a lot of the Russian voters knew they wanted to leave ðŸ˜‰, sorry couldnâ€™t resist!
We have had 3 years and I suspect some have changed their minds because both sides havenâ€™t covered themselves in glory


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I knew exactly what I was voting for - for the day after the referendum.  The same as the day before.

What then might happen and develop at least we would be on the inside with some degree of influence.  If things subsequently changed in a way that I did not like then in time we'd have another opportunity to decide whether to stay in or not.  We'd have regular 5 yearly opportunities for Westminster and EU parliament elections to make sure that the parties wanting to be our government knew just what we wanted of the EU.  And they would have to listen.

My bias is indeed perhaps verging on absolute.  I think leaving is a terrible mistake with misunderstood and misrepresented reasons and consequences of doing so - where we will lose things that we currently have with little tangible benefit for the ordinary individual in return; and with the risk of consequences that are most likely to harm only those less able to cope.

Yes - I will lose some freedoms of travel, and perhaps my pension will be hit - however I am very fortunate to be able to afford holidays and to have a half decent pension fund.  I am quite comfortable. Leaving will not really affect me significantly.  But very many are not so fortunate - and when they feel the pain with little of what they expected in return - our divided society will hurt even more and the anger will grow.  My concerns for the future are more social than economic - in time the country will find it's new place wherever that is.  I am less certain about society.

On O'Brien - O'Brien can be abrupt and condescending - but he aims to have the debate based upon fact and truth - and he will not hesitate to expose those who use falsehoods and unsubstantiated fact to support their arguments.  He is clear that his sympathy sits with the lied to and he is highly critical of the liars and deceivers.  Why do government ministers go on Ferrari and not on O'Brien? - because they know they will be exposed by O'Brien.

I am sorry that you find my bias horrendous - it is what it is - but my view is simply driven by concern.
		
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Your view is driven by concern for yourself, and yourself only. You measure the outcome by your own metrics, not anyone else's(verging on absolute), hence it is your concern only. And by your own admission O'Brien is abrupt and condescending yet you love him to bits, although I've not heard you quote him for quite a while.

I doubt you'll ever convince me otherwise. You are Farage in Remain clothing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Your view is driven by concern for yourself, and yourself only. You measure the outcome by your own metrics, not anyone else's(verging on absolute), hence it is your concern only. And by your own admission O'Brien is abrupt and condescending yet you love him to bits, although I've not heard you quote him for quite a while.

I doubt you'll ever convince me otherwise. You are Farage in Remain clothing.
		
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My view is absolutely not driven by any concerns for myself - I have no such concerns. 

But I am guilty as accused of repetition and so cease.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My view is absolutely not driven by any concerns for myself - I have no such concerns.

But I am guilty as accused of repetition and so cease.
		
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I do hope so. It will prevent others from repeating the same old contrary views to you over and over.


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## Hobbit (Nov 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My view is absolutely not driven by any concerns for myself - I have no such concerns.

But I am guilty as accused of repetition and so cease.
		
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Here's a thought Hugh. I confronted your beliefs and behaviours. I likened them to extremes. I didn't engage and ask you questions about them. I didn't ask you to explain and qualify them, and I didn't offer a moderating view.

If you tell someone you think they are ignorant, deluded, racist, blinkered, lied to(gullible), insular and selfish you will get their back up. You've attacked the people they believe in. They will defend their beliefs and they will fight back. You haven't engaged with them, debated with them nor asked the rhetorical questions that will lead them to analyse their beliefs. And most importantly, you will not change them nor get them to look at compromises.

You've asked for compromise in the past but you haven't asked the important questions that will lead them to soften their position. You yourself haven't modified your position from Remain. You've spoken of accepting the result but when pushed you revert to you absolutely don't want it. May came back with a BRINO, but still you attacked it. Johnson came back with a compromise deal, especially on the NI issue, and you attacked it. You won't accept the compromises they achieved, and you won't meet them halfway, and BRINO is more than halfway. And I suspect that Johnson's deal is May's reheated and is more than halfway.

I digress. For Brexit not to happen you need the Brexiteers to change their minds, and you won't achieve that whilst you continually attack their fundamental position and beliefs. If anything you only reinforce their beliefs.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Here's a thought Hugh. I confronted your beliefs and behaviours. I likened them to extremes. I didn't engage and ask you questions about them. I didn't ask you to explain and qualify them, and I didn't offer a moderating view.

If you tell someone you think they are ignorant, deluded, racist, blinkered, lied to(gullible), insular and selfish you will get their back up. You've attacked the people they believe in. They will defend their beliefs and they will fight back. You haven't engaged with them, debated with them nor asked the rhetorical questions that will lead them to analyse their beliefs. And most importantly, you will not change them nor get them to look at compromises.

You've asked for compromise in the past but you haven't asked the important questions that will lead them to soften their position. You yourself haven't modified your position from Remain. You've spoken of accepting the result but when pushed you revert to you absolutely don't want it. May came back with a BRINO, but still you attacked it. Johnson came back with a compromise deal, especially on the NI issue, and you attacked it. You won't accept the compromises they achieved, and you won't meet them halfway, and BRINO is more than halfway. And I suspect that Johnson's deal is May's reheated and is more than halfway.

I digress. For Brexit not to happen you need the Brexiteers to change their minds, and you won't achieve that whilst you continually attack their fundamental position and beliefs. If anything you only reinforce their beliefs.
		
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Likewise with remainers ... those who feel pushed in any way will bury their heads deeper in the sand.
But others on here have questioned the validity of brexit and the promises made, even remarked on the strategy and the responses have not been very forthcoming or intellectual. 
The point is this, those who want change really need to justify change, that reason for change becomes valid when it's proven to be correct. 
There have been some good points made on here but on the whole it's just been a bunch of middle age to retired men just lecturing each other with "I know best".
I don't think we have a female voice here ...


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## Old Skier (Nov 14, 2019)

As a leaver I have never said anything else other than not knowing what the future holds. Change has never bothered me, possibly because of the way my personal life has gone but when I ask a remainer what the future holds most say it's going to be the same old same old and cannot admit that they have no idea. So in the end, some remain arguments are not better than mine.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 14, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			As a leaver I have never said anything else other than not knowing what the future holds. Change has never bothered me, possibly because of the way my personal life has gone but when I ask a remainer what the future holds most say it's going to be the same old same old and cannot admit that they have no idea. So in the end, some remain arguments are not better than mine.
		
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Fair one, itâ€™s no different to me voting Leave and not wanting a No Deal scenario, I donâ€™t want that because of the possible unknown damage.
But as you say, at the same time the remain option also came with no future guarantees.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 14, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			As a leaver I have never said anything else other than not knowing what the future holds. Change has never bothered me, possibly because of the way my personal life has gone but when I ask a remainer what the future holds most say it's going to be the same old same old and cannot admit that they have no idea. So in the end, some remain arguments are not better than mine.
		
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Some people have a lot going on in their lives (although we could stand on the side lines and think ... really?) the point is, this could change and upset what they perceive to be an equilibrium .. so same old same old means please don't add another variable there are enough to deal with at the moment. 
That argument should not be dismissed, it should be respected and if you wish to debate it ask them to put it into context.
We are all different and we all react to change differently. 
Some people are very good at forecasting and know what that change will bring and they can tell you how it will impact them and their dearest. They may deem it to be harmless or a danger. Either way that has to be investigated.


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## Old Skier (Nov 14, 2019)

My only point was that there will be change in the EU and it's not going to be same old same old yet nobody can say what impact the changes in the EU will have


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## harpo_72 (Nov 14, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			My only point was that there will be change in the EU and it's not going to be same old same old yet nobody can say what impact the changes in the EU will have
		
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There will be changes, but how big is the direct impact to us ? What do you think will be the direct impact to the common person ? The point is how seismic will these changes be ... and that is where the debate is .. a remainer will see that the change level will be insignificant if we remain and if we leave the change level could well hit the red with impacts to movement, finances, and quality of living and job prospects .. Spin it round as a leaver and think if we stayed how big an impact does that have .. (you will have to fill in the gaps here, as you had these concerns and wanted to leave, because I cannot verbalise them for you or would not do them justice)


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## SocketRocket (Nov 14, 2019)

I prefer us to leave with a good free trade deal that is in the best interests of all parties but not one that includes any kind of regulatory alignment, free movement or that affects our legal independence. I do appreciate that others will have different preferences and respect their view, believe it or not I dont go out looking to belittle or insult people who would prefer to remain in the EU although I feel its fair in a Forum to reply with like where your views are attacked and even rubbished.   I would much prefer a reasoned debate with people, its OK for the odd joke or light hearted banter but many of us have been drawn into a war of attrition against each other and such that there are some quite bad feeling and axes to grind.     The last few weeks have seen an escalation and blood pressures rising and looking back I am just as much to blame as the next man for this.   Maybe we can all make an effort to be a little more understanding of others views and although questioning them at times we can refrain from the name calling and attempts to belittle.  I openly apologise for any offence intended or otherwise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I prefer us to leave with a good free trade deal that is in the best interests of all parties but not one that includes any kind of regulatory alignment, free movement or that affects our legal independence. I do appreciate that others will have different preferences and respect their view, believe it or not I dont go out looking to belittle or insult people who would prefer to remain in the EU although I feel its fair in a Forum to reply with like where your views are attacked and even rubbished.   I would much prefer a reasoned debate with people, its OK for the odd joke or light hearted banter but many of us have been drawn into a war of attrition against each other and such that there are some quite bad feeling and axes to grind.     The last few weeks have seen an escalation and blood pressures rising and looking back I am just as much to blame as the next man for this.   *Maybe we can all make an effort to be a little more understanding of others views and although questioning them at times we can refrain from the name calling and attempts to belittle.  I openly apologise for any offence intended or otherwise.*

Click to expand...

Likewise...


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## spongebob59 (Nov 14, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195034069677023232


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

Vote Leave, so England can win the World Cup.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194966699621208064


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Vote Leave, so England can win the World Cup.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1194966699621208064

Click to expand...

Damn, wish I'd voted Leave! Another 60+ years of hurt...?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Damn, wish I'd voted Leave! Another 60+ years of hurt...?

Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s a Government Minister mate, no mention of Scotland, Wales or NI though Or the fact we already have control of non-eu immigration.
Letâ€™s hope Doon missâ€™s the post.


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s a Government Minister mate, no mention of Scotland, Wales or NI though Or the fact we already have control of non-eu immigration.
Letâ€™s hope Doon missâ€™s the post.

Click to expand...

He might hit the corner flag


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## ger147 (Nov 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He might hit the corner flag

Click to expand...

He's a Hearts fan, hitting the corner flag would be progress...


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## drdel (Nov 15, 2019)

I see Brussels intend to ask for an additional ~Â£20m from member states to cover their costs of promoting the EU and staffing EU elections in the UK. Its not a lot but apparently they forgot to make a provision for the expenditure in their budgeting.

This comes while members are trying to cut their own expenditure against a background where Brussels has hiked their own planned expenditure way above inflation. - r27 aren't happy.

I wonder how much they might think of 'fining' the UK for not appointing our representative? - anyone venture a guess...


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			I see Brussels intend to ask for an additional ~Â£20m from member states to cover their costs of promoting the EU and staffing EU elections in the UK. Its not a lot but apparently they forgot to make a provision for the expenditure in their budgeting.

This comes while members are trying to cut their own expenditure against a background where Brussels has hiked their own planned expenditure way above inflation. - r27 aren't happy.

I wonder how much they might think of 'fining' the UK for not appointing our representative? - anyone venture a guess...
		
Click to expand...

Think the UK should appoint Farage. After all, he is the leader of the UK's largest MEP representation...... sorted.


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## drdel (Nov 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Think the UK should appoint Farage. After all, he is the leader of the UK's largest MEP representation...... sorted.
		
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They'd want to reject him but ( as for the French and German guys they refused) they would then cause the delay themselves; A good plan to get the PM off the hook


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## Mudball (Nov 17, 2019)

Those arguing for Canada or Norway+ ... posted as seen on Twitter.. not fact checked 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195759923885465601


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## ger147 (Nov 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Those arguing for Canada or Norway+ ... posted as seen on Twitter.. not fact checked 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195759923885465601

Click to expand...

How much do Canada pay?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Those arguing for Canada or Norway+ ... posted as seen on Twitter.. not fact checked


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1195759923885465601

Click to expand...

Just with some basic (and very approximate) Maths, assuming that we pay approx Â£250 million per week nett that works out as around Â£12 billion per year. UK population of approx 70 million. 12 billion divided by 70 million equals approx Â£171 per person per year.

The Â£29 per head at 70 million population would mean our contributions per year would be 2 billion.


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## Hobbit (Nov 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just with some basic (and very approximate) Maths, assuming that we pay approx Â£250 million per week nett that works out as around Â£12 billion per year. UK population of approx 70 million. 12 billion divided by 70 million equals approx Â£171 per person per year.

The Â£29 per head at 70 million population would mean our contributions per year would be 2 billion.
		
Click to expand...

Stop it with the fake news...


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just with some basic (and very approximate) Maths, assuming that we pay approx Â£250 million per week nett that works out as around Â£12 billion per year. UK population of approx 70 million. 12 billion divided by 70 million equals approx Â£171 per person per year.

The Â£29 per head at 70 million population would mean our contributions per year would be 2 billion.
		
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You're getting confused.... we will still be paying many billions to the EU


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Stop it with the fake news...

Click to expand...

That's you're department , remain on the outside,  brexit on the inside.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You're getting confused.... we will still be paying many billions to the EU
		
Click to expand...

I'm not confused at all. I was simply responding to the suggestion that EU membership costs us Â£29 per person per year. Clearly that figure is way out.


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not confused at all. I was simply responding to the suggestion that EU membership costs us Â£29 per person per year. Clearly that figure is way out.
		
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Your 12 billion  is way too high


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## Mudball (Nov 17, 2019)

ger147 said:



			How much do Canada pay?
		
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Remind me why they have a better deal and decision rights?


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## ger147 (Nov 17, 2019)

Mudball said:



			Remind me why they have a better deal and decision rights?
		
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I'll answer your question when you answer mine...


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

ger147 said:



			How much do Canada pay?
		
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Pay for what? They don't have the same access as an EU member. So the question is irrelevant.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Your 12 billion  is way too high
		
Click to expand...

If anything it's a little low. "In 2018 the UK made an estimated gross contribution (after the rebate) of Â£13.2 billion."

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7886 

My 70 million figure for population was also high. UK population in 2018 was 66.4 million.

13.2 billion divided by 66.4 million equals Â£198. So perhaps you should be more concerned that the Â£29 per head figure is way out.

Even taking into account the "public sector receipts" of Â£4.3 billion we get back (funds given back for the government to manage) it's a nett of Â£8.9 billion. Which is still Â£134 per person per year.

So I would counter that the quoted Â£29 per person per year is way too low.


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

at least you got to the correct net figure in the end.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 17, 2019)

Good morning Mr Smith, Can I have a Haddock and Chips please.
Certainly Mr James, Salt and Vinegar ?

Yes please.

That will be Â£7.50 for the fish and chips and Â£10 for me allowing you to buy it from me.

But my next door neighbour doesnt pay you Â£10

Ah! Thats because he's not in the fish and chip club.  Do you want to stay in it?

Nah! Think I'll leave if thats OK.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			at least you got to the correct net figure in the end.
		
Click to expand...

At least you've accepted that the original figure of Â£29 was massively wrong. 

Perhaps it could be called an outright lie. Or maybe you'd prefer the term fake news.


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			At least you've accepted that the original figure of Â£29 was massively wrong.

Perhaps it could be called an outright lie. Or maybe you'd prefer the term fake news.
		
Click to expand...

No idea just wondered why your were using such a massively incorrect number


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No idea just wondered why your were using such a massively incorrect number
		
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So you have a bigger issue with me originally suggesting that it was Â£171 per person per year when it's actually approx Â£134? My "massively incorrect number" was Â£37 out. The Â£29 figure is over Â£100 out but you don't wonder why the original post was using such a "massively incorrect number". Think that says everything about how one sided your views are on this subject. You've got your blinkers on and are unable to accept any criticism of the EU or being a member of it.


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

No, but dw, you're clearly very confused.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No, but dw, you're clearly very confused.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not confused about you. I know exactly what you are.


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not confused about you. I know exactly what you are. 

Click to expand...

You're post doesn't make sense,.that's all

Oof and you even got some lapdog likes ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Good morning Mr Smith, Can I have a Haddock and Chips please.
Certainly Mr James, Salt and Vinegar ?

Yes please.

That will be Â£7.50 for the fish and chips and Â£10 for me allowing you to buy it from me.

But my next door neighbour doesnt pay you Â£10

Ah! Thats because he's not in the fish and chip club.  Do you want to stay in it?

Nah! Think I'll leave if thats OK.
		
Click to expand...

And the award for faecal analogy of the weeks goes to.....


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## SocketRocket (Nov 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			And the award for analogy of the weeks goes to.....
		
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Just a bit of light hearted allegory and you bring on the insults. Ah well!


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Just a bit of light hearted allegory and you bring on the insults. Ah well!
		
Click to expand...

Irony meter overload not withstanding...ðŸ˜‚
It was a fact based assessment ðŸ˜‰


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Irony meter overload not withstanding...ðŸ˜‚
It was a fact based assessment ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

Irony meter overload notwithstanding next time you go sweary on here I wonâ€™t be just editing and giving a warning âš ï¸


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Irony meter overload notwithstanding next time you go sweary on here I wonâ€™t be just editing and giving a warning âš ï¸
		
Click to expand...

1 use of a word that's allowable in pg  films, in a forum littered with some atrocious swearing.
Hardly going sweary is it.
Oof.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof and you even got some lapdog likes ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Full moon brings them out. Best to leave it be.


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## robinthehood (Nov 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Full moon brings them out. Best to leave it be.
		
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Yeah seems that way.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			1 use of a word that's allowable in pg  films, in a forum littered with some atrocious swearing.
Hardly going sweary is it.
Oof.
		
Click to expand...

We work on the basis that if the word in question can be found in the GM Magazine, then itâ€™s ok to use on the forum.
Itâ€™s GMâ€™s baby and if they say no swearing then thatâ€™s what it they get.

There are loads of ways to get your feelings across without swearing.

If you see someone else doing it, report it

Oof


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## robinthehood (Nov 18, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We work on the basis that if the word in question can be found in the GM Magazine, then itâ€™s ok to use on the forum.
Itâ€™s GMâ€™s baby and if they say no swearing then thatâ€™s what it they get.

There are loads of ways to get your feelings across without swearing.

If you see someone else doing it, report it

Oof
		
Click to expand...

Sure thing, how many reports would you like ? 50, 60., 70 a hundred...?


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## Hacker Khan (Nov 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Sure thing, how many reports would you like ? 50, 60., 70 a hundred...?
		
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It's not worth arguing with mate. This forum lives is a world where some words freely used in national newspapers, other golf magazines, playgrounds of primary schools and PG films are unacceptable. But petty tit for tat behavior that would embarras 9 year olds and sometimes low level bullying of people that do not share someone's views is the way most threads sometimes play out.

To be honest I'm more offended by most people's taste in music than the odd swear word my 13 year old would find lame, but there you go. But remember golf is full of class acts and the image has to be protected, and if you don't like it there are lots of other forums you can go on where you can eff and Jeff to your hearts content. Motherfunster. 

Anyway, back to Brexit. Do you think other countries will also apply a skills points based system when brits want to retire there?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's not worth arguing with mate. This forum lives is a world where some words freely used in national newspapers, other golf magazines, playgrounds of primary schools and PG films are unacceptable. But petty tit for tat behavior that would embarras 9 year olds and sometimes low level bullying of people that do not share someone's views is the way most threads sometimes play out.

To be honest I'm more offended by most people's taste in music than the odd swear word my 13 year old would find lame, but there you go. But remember golf is full of class acts and the image has to be protected, and if you don't like it there are lots of other forums you can go on where you can eff and Jeff to your hearts content. Motherfunster. 

Anyway, back to Brexit. Do you think other countries will also apply a skills points based system when brits want to retire there?
		
Click to expand...

Sensible as ever Hacker, and nice ironic question at the end ðŸ‘.
But in all honesty there must be some form or way of dealing with the impact they will have to the services .. and that is not being contentious or ageist.


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## Hobbit (Nov 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Sensible as ever Hacker, and nice ironic question at the end ðŸ‘.
But in all honesty there must be some form or way of dealing with the impact they will have to the services .. and that is not being contentious or ageist.
		
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I can answer the last question. Unless reciprocity is agreed, as offered by Spain and Portugal, the criteria to retire here are far more stringent in terms of how much pension and savings there is. At present reciprocity includes healthcare and benefits. Lose that and it has to be self-funded, hence the need for a greater pension and savings.

As an aside, the results for last weeks national elections in Spain is a little worrying. Vox, basically UKIP, increased its number of seats by 38%. Still not a huge amount of seats, but on a personal level we've experienced a couple of instances of racism in the last year. No go back home, yet, but you do experience the odd occasion when you will be the last person to be served, and there are instances of dual pricing... one price for Spaniards and another for foreigners.


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## Mudball (Nov 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Anyway, back to Brexit. Do you think other countries will also apply a skills points based system when brits want to retire there?
		
Click to expand...


I am sure that most people on the forum would be aware that the UK has had a point based system back in 2004 for non-EU nationals. It was introduced as part of the HSMP system to bring skilled workers.   If you apply that logic, then retierees (sometime classed as economically unproductive) wont qualify under a PBS.  The only exception is if you bring bags loads of cash then you can get citizenship to many countries ..   We are talking 100k+ and goes all the way over a million.   I am assuming that a golf forum would be full of cigar chomping, cognac swirling, Tory voting folks who should not have such problems.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I can answer the last question. Unless reciprocity is agreed, as offered by Spain and Portugal, the criteria to retire here are far more stringent in terms of how much pension and savings there is. At present reciprocity includes healthcare and benefits. Lose that and it has to be self-funded, hence the need for a greater pension and savings.

As an aside, the results for last weeks national elections in Spain is a little worrying. Vox, basically UKIP, increased its number of seats by 38%. Still not a huge amount of seats, but on a personal level we've experienced a couple of instances of racism in the last year. No go back home, yet, but you do experience the odd occasion when you will be the last person to be served, and there are instances of dual pricing... one price for Spaniards and another for foreigners.
		
Click to expand...

All it needs is a sorting out of the present situations and agreements ratified and you will know better where you stand as in no change, mild impact or complete change. I would like to think no change is the target irrespective of the Brexit outcome.
There does seem to be a rise in nationalism across Europe, and honestly speaking I don't know what is fueling it, I have an idea about the UK.
The points last night were based on these are not good signs and they do need to be acknowledged and dealt with or escalation could see history repeating itself .. that's not scaremongering or extreme it's just a way of making a note of history and trying to learn from it.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2019)

Mudball said:



			I am sure that most people on the forum would be aware that the UK has had a point based system back in 2004 for non-EU nationals. It was introduced as part of the HSMP system to bring skilled workers.   If you apply that logic, then retierees (sometime classed as economically unproductive) wont qualify under a PBS.  The only exception is if you bring bags loads of cash then you can get citizenship to many countries ..   We are talking 100k+ and goes all the way over a million.   I am assuming that a golf forum would be full of cigar chomping, cognac swirling, Tory voting folks who should not have such problems.
		
Click to expand...

I think the immigration question is not being defined and they are just saying immigration ... where the issue lies are those that are smuggled in and those that come across in boats .. leaving the EU will have little or no impact on those. 
They use lorry scanners .. they don't work effectively, they cannot patrol all the inlets (christ, we have indulged in smuggling for 1000 of years !!).
Those people from the commonwealth are welcome, it's the friggin commonwealth and they have supported us in our time of need, they helped us rebuild this country .. 

So what is the immigration argument?


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## patricks148 (Nov 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think the immigration question is not being defined and they are just saying immigration ... where the issue lies are those that are smuggled in and those that come across in boats .. leaving the EU will have little or no impact on those.
They use lorry scanners .. they don't work effectively, they cannot patrol all the inlets (christ, we have indulged in smuggling for 1000 of years !!).
Those people from the commonwealth are welcome, it's the friggin commonwealth and they have supported us in our time of need, they helped us rebuild this country ..

So what is the immigration argument?
		
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for the Tory's it an easy election prom for them, they can say what they like about cutting imigration, it will play to the right, but they then just don't do anything anyway... simples. last 3 gov has given targets for cutting Imigration, missd them by miles, in fact the only thing they did was cut UK border force numbers.. at the same time scare monger about European Imigration and taking control, when we have more from outside the EU anyway whicj they could do something about and havn't.....Its all labours fault as usual


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			I think the immigration question is not being defined and they are just saying immigration ... where the issue lies are those that are smuggled in and those that come across in boats .. leaving the EU will have little or no impact on those.
They use lorry scanners .. they don't work effectively, they cannot patrol all the inlets (christ, we have indulged in smuggling for 1000 of years !!).
Those people from the commonwealth are welcome, it's the friggin commonwealth and they have supported us in our time of need, they helped us rebuild this country ..

* what is the immigration argument?*

Click to expand...

OK, i will answer your question seeing youre asking it.
You keep using undertones in your posts that suggest current thinking on immigration by Conservatives is a step on the ladder in repeating the geneside used by Germany, Russia and China in the past. I think that is a gross exaggeration and not worth of serious consideration.

What's the problem with a points based immigration system anyway?   Its not used to stop immigration but rather to ensure the country welcomes those that it needs, whoever they may be and in what ever numbers are necessary.   It seems logical and practical so what exactly is the problem. 

Would you prefer an open door system with no control over numbers that allows anyone who wishes to live in the UK the right to do so and if so please explain what numbers of people we could expect and how we would manage such numbers.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			for the Tory's it an easy election prom for them, they can say what they like about cutting imigration, it will play to the right, but they then just don't do anything anyway... simples. last 3 gov has given targets for cutting Imigration, missd them by miles, in fact the only thing they did was cut UK border force numbers.. at the same time scare monger about European Imigration and taking control, when we have more from outside the EU anyway whicj they could do something about and havn't.....Its all labours fault as usual

Click to expand...

I think you will find its not easy foe people outside the EU to come and live in the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Good morning Mr Smith, Can I have a Haddock and Chips please.
Certainly Mr James, Salt and Vinegar ?

Yes please.

That will be Â£7.50 for the fish and chips and Â£10 for me allowing you to buy it from me.

But my next door neighbour doesnt pay you Â£10

Ah! Thats because he's not in the fish and chip club.  Do you want to stay in it?

Nah! Think I'll leave if thats OK.
		
Click to expand...

Think we might all have to develop a liking for scampi/langoustine/lobster and chips once we leave - as project fear suggests that (especially under WTO rules) tariffs on such seafood will clobber our exports to Spain and other key markets...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, i will answer your question seeing youre asking it.
You keep using undertones in your posts that suggest current thinking on immigration by Conservatives is a step on the ladder in repeating the geneside used by Germany, Russia and China in the past. I think that is a gross exaggeration and not worth of serious consideration.

What's the problem with a points based immigration system anyway?   Its not used to stop immigration but rather to ensure the country welcomes those that it needs, whoever they may be and in what ever numbers are necessary.   It seems logical and practical so what exactly is the problem.

Would you prefer an open door system with no control over numbers that allows anyone who wishes to live in the UK the right to do so and if so please explain what numbers of people we could expect and how we would manage such numbers.
		
Click to expand...

You know fine well that freedom of movement within the EU has constraints - and that the UK could easily have been stricter around rEU nationals not in work.

_Union residents are given the right to enter any member state for up to three months with a valid passport or identity card.  _

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement#European_Union

_After three months, everything changes. EU nationals can stay in the host state for the next five years only if they are economically active (as a â€˜workerâ€™, self-employed person or a temporary service provider) or they can provide for themselves (as a person of independent means or a student). _

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/myth-busting-free-movement/

Besides - as we all know - only about 20% of our immigration is from the rEU - with 80% from non-EU countries (and we have always been able to control that as we would like).

BTW - I should perhaps caveat_ 'we all know...'_ - all, that is, except Johnson it would appear who told Rachel Burden on R5Live that he thought migration from the rEU was about 50% of the total (is it worse that he didn't know the split or that he tried to imply a different split)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-gets-eu-immigration-20888661

though that misunderstanding was rather lost amongst the rest of the stuff Johnson stated in the interview - which should perhaps be under either the _Words of Wisdom of Boris Johnson_ or _General Election 2019_ threads

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/15/boris-johnson-inaccurate-claims-in-interviews


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## woody69 (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK, i will answer your question seeing youre asking it.
You keep using undertones in your posts that suggest current thinking on immigration by Conservatives is a step on the ladder in repeating the geneside used by Germany, Russia and China in the past. I think that is a gross exaggeration and not worth of serious consideration.

What's the problem with a points based immigration system anyway?   Its not used to stop immigration but rather to ensure the country welcomes those that it needs, whoever they may be and in what ever numbers are necessary.   It seems logical and practical so what exactly is the problem.

Would you prefer an open door system with no control over numbers that allows anyone who wishes to live in the UK the right to do so and if so please explain what numbers of people we could expect and how we would manage such numbers.
		
Click to expand...

There is no one Iâ€™d trust, and certainly no politically motivated body, to determine which skills we need, and which people have them, and which people who we deem to have them also have all the other qualities we may also deem to be necessary to become a valuable member of society. And I also donâ€™t trust any politicians to tell me what it means to be a valuable member of society, because first they havenâ€™t describe in detail what sort of society they are aiming for.

To put it bluntly, Iâ€™d rather have a million nice, honest, friendly, dependable people with a strong social conscience who havenâ€™t yet had the chance to develop vocational skills, who want to come here to improve their lives, than any number of people selected purely on the grounds of their job titles, professional and educational qualifications and bank balances.

Thereâ€™s a lot more to it than this, obviously. Like the fact that if only qualified people come here, our already-resident qualified people will be more tempted to move away, for many observable and familiar reasons.

Anyway, the most valuable members of society are often not qualified people. I thoroughly dislike the hierarchical, judgmental and exclusive approach to choosing who we want to live near us.

But if we are really so concerned about population levels, why are we doing absolutely nothing at all to reduce the birth rate among people already here? No programmes of publicity about the ideal sustainable population (because no one has a clue what it is or whether such a thing exists, making the immigration limit a nonsense) , no appeals or attempts of any kind to reduce consumption, no serious efforts to manage population movement within the UK, nothing at all about population. Itâ€™s only about immigration.

So until someone can explain what our optimum population level is and why, (is it more or less than the current population would be a start) I canâ€™t take the selective admissions idea seriously. It is just a knee-jerk response to blame immigration for all sorts of ill-defined and poorly understood problems, many of which may not be problems anyway, but just the natural product of living in a highly commercialised society of the sort that vocationally selective policies may just accelerate.

I donâ€™t accept that simple common sense will give us adequate answers to this major moral, social and economic conundrum.


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2019)

woody69 said:



			There is no one Iâ€™d trust, and certainly no politically motivated body, to determine which skills we need, and which people have them, and which people who we deem to have them also have all the other qualities we may also deem to be necessary to become a valuable member of society. And I also donâ€™t trust any politicians to tell me what it means to be a valuable member of society, because first they havenâ€™t describe in detail what sort of society they are aiming for.

To put it bluntly, Iâ€™d rather have a million nice, honest, friendly, dependable people with a strong social conscience who havenâ€™t yet had the chance to develop vocational skills, who want to come here to improve their lives, than any number of people selected purely on the grounds of their job titles, professional and educational qualifications and bank balances.

Thereâ€™s a lot more to it than this, obviously. Like the fact that if only qualified people come here, our already-resident qualified people will be more tempted to move away, for many observable and familiar reasons.

Anyway, the most valuable members of society are often not qualified people. I thoroughly dislike the hierarchical, judgmental and exclusive approach to choosing who we want to live near us.

But if we are really so concerned about population levels, why are we doing absolutely nothing at all to reduce the birth rate among people already here? No programmes of publicity about the ideal sustainable population (because no one has a clue what it is or whether such a thing exists, making the immigration limit a nonsense) , no appeals or attempts of any kind to reduce consumption, no serious efforts to manage population movement within the UK, nothing at all about population. Itâ€™s only about immigration.

So until someone can explain what our optimum population level is and why, (is it more or less than the current population would be a start) I canâ€™t take the selective admissions idea seriously. It is just a knee-jerk response to blame immigration for all sorts of ill-defined and poorly understood problems, many of which may not be problems anyway, but just the natural product of living in a highly commercialised society of the sort that vocationally selective policies may just accelerate.

I donâ€™t accept that simple common sense will give us adequate answers to this major moral, social and economic conundrum.
		
Click to expand...

Birth rate is highest in the Lower Social Economic group !!


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## harpo_72 (Nov 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			Birth rate is highest in the Lower Social Economic group !!
		
Click to expand...

Time is a beautiful thing ..

But seriously we still have a few factors that address immigration, but we have not stopped the illegals or how we stop those who have committed serious offences in their own countries ?
And I still don't see how those are addressed by leaving the EU. So my point is why even bring it up as part of the discussion ?
I am also of the view, and forgive me for this, that those who come over here and work and pay their taxes are not an issue .. in fact I think we have a problem more with people who don't pay their taxes and who won't work, and is that an EU problem?


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## robinthehood (Nov 18, 2019)

https://newsthump.com/2019/11/18/ch...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://newsthump.com/2019/11/18/ch...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork

Click to expand...

Apples v Pears...


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## patricks148 (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I think you will find its not easy foe people outside the EU to come and live in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

but far easier than it was before thet axed the 2000 UK border force officers


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## woody69 (Nov 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			Apples v Pears...
		
Click to expand...

Also, satire.


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## woody69 (Nov 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			Birth rate is highest in the Lower Social Economic group !!
		
Click to expand...

And?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You know fine well that freedom of movement within the EU has constraints - and that the UK could easily have been stricter around rEU nationals not in work. 

_Union residents are given the right to enter any member state for up to three months with a valid passport or identity card.  _

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement#European_Union

_After three months, everything changes. EU nationals can stay in the host state for the next five years only if they are economically active (as a â€˜workerâ€™, self-employed person or a temporary service provider) or they can provide for themselves (as a person of independent means or a student). _

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/myth-busting-free-movement/

Besides - as we all know - only about 20% of our immigration is from the rEU - with 80% from non-EI countries (and we have always been able to control that as we would like).  

BTW - I should perhaps caveat_ 'we all know...'_ - all, that is, except Johnson it would appear who told Rachel Burden on R5Live that he thought migration from the rEU was about 50% of the total (is it worse that he didn't know the split or tried to imply a different split)

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-gets-eu-immigration-20888661

though that misunderstanding was rather lost amongst the rest of the stuff Johnson stated in the interview - which should perhaps be under either the _Words of Wisdom of Boris Johnson_ or _General Election 2019_ threads 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/15/boris-johnson-inaccurate-claims-in-interviews

Click to expand...

You seem to have gone off subject, I'm not discussing Boris Johnson or Rachel Burden.  I will ask again, do you approve of an open door immigration system that has no control over who comes to the UK to live.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			but far easier than it was before thet axed the 2000 UK border force officers

Click to expand...

Its not easy or open borders by any means. Do you agree or not.


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## robinthehood (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not easy or open borders by any means. Do you agree or not.
		
Click to expand...

net migration from the EU is at its lowest level in a decade, while Net from outside is a its highest.

Last year,200 000 non EU migrants... vs 50 000 EU. your just replacing EU with non EU.

Im sure there is a point to it all, somewhere.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			net migration from the EU is at its lowest level in a decade, while Net from outside is a its highest.

Last year,200 000 non EU migrants... vs 50 000 EU. your just replacing EU with non EU.

Im sure there is a point to it all, somewhere.
		
Click to expand...

I am not discussing EU immigration but immigration period.
People here keep skirting the answer so I'll ask again. What's wrong with a points based immigration system verses an open door policy?


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## robinthehood (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am not discussing EU immigration but immigration period.
People here keep skirting the answer so I'll ask again. What's wrong with a points based immigration system verses an open door policy?
		
Click to expand...

Me neither... im pointing out that NON EU migration, you know the points based stuff.... Is at an all time high.

Your goal is clearly to reduce migration, but your not doing that, not even close.
But you have reduced EU migration, so well done there.


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I am not discussing EU immigration but immigration period.
People here keep skirting the answer so I'll ask again. What's wrong with a points based immigration system verses an open door policy?
		
Click to expand...

Nothing. All sensible countries control immigration. I would ask which countries outside EU do not have immigration control?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem to have gone off subject, I'm not discussing Boris Johnson or Rachel Burden.  I will ask again, do you approve of an open door immigration system that has no control over who comes to the UK to live.
		
Click to expand...

We already have control.  I am comfortable with the current system.

I think it valid and very relevant to bring up Johnson's apparent lack of understanding of the level of immigration from the rEU compared with the rWorld - because his utterances and beliefs in respect of immigration will be determining immigration policy of a Johnson-led government. 

Do you not think it somewhat strange that Johnson does not appear to know the split between rEU and rWorld immigration to the UK.


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## Foxholer (Nov 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			net migration from the EU is at its lowest level in a decade, while Net from outside is a its highest.
..
		
Click to expand...

As would be expected 2 years after the referendum!


robinthehood said:



			...
Last year,200 000 non EU migrants... vs 50 000 EU. your just replacing EU with non EU.
..
		
Click to expand...

Those non-EU ones were through UK's choice - aka desired skills - and 'controlled'. EU ones were through FOM, so who knows what skills were involved - and uncontrolled!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Me neither... im pointing out that NON EU migration, you know the points based stuff.... Is at an all time high.

Your goal is clearly to reduce migration, but your not doing that, not even close.
But you have reduced EU migration, so well done there.
		
Click to expand...

I dont have a goal only a desire as I have no control over immigration.
My desire is that we control immigration not simply reduce it. It seems logical that we encourage people we need in our country and reduce people we don't need. Its like a business, there will be a requirement to employ those with the skills you need to fill vacancies. No company would say that anyone will be given a job irrespective of job vacancies or skills required
There will be a certain amount of humane immigration where the country decides to help a number of unfortunate people but that would  be part of your quotas


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## robinthehood (Nov 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			As would be expected 2 years after the referendum!

Those non-EU ones were through UK's choice - aka desired skills - and 'controlled'. EU ones were through FOM, so who knows what skills were involved - and uncontrolled!
		
Click to expand...

Most are students.


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Most are students.
		
Click to expand...

Evidence?


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## robinthehood (Nov 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			Evidence?
		
Click to expand...

THE OFFICE FOR NATIONAL STATISTICS


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			THE OFFICE FOR NATIONAL STATISTICS
		
Click to expand...

That's an organisation not evidence.


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## robinthehood (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			That's an organisation not evidence.
		
Click to expand...


Yes thats where i looked, rather than the Sun or Daily express or daily mail


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes thats where i looked, rather than the Sun or Daily express or daily mail
		
Click to expand...

Then where is the evidence to support your comment


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## robinthehood (Nov 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Then where is the evidence to support your comment
		
Click to expand...

On the ONS website, why dont you do some heavy lifting for yourself for a change instead of expecting to be spoon fed.

I mean you could even just google it tbf.


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## drdel (Nov 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			On the ONS website, why dont you do some heavy lifting for yourself for a change instead of expecting to be spoon fed.

I mean you could even just google it tbf.
		
Click to expand...

About half might be students (but includes visas for dependents). The Office for National Statistics also projects that, at about the current level of nearly 250,000 per year net, the UK population will increase by a total just under 400,000 per year until 2041. Long term this would lead to growth of 9.7 million people over a 25-year period. We would surpass 70 million in 2026. Their projections also show that around 82% of the total increase by 2041 would be the result of immigration.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			On the ONS website, why dont you do some heavy lifting for yourself for a change instead of expecting to be spoon fed.

I mean you could even just google it tbf.
		
Click to expand...

You were asked to prove your statement, not me. Why would I do the heavy lifting for you. I haven't said you're wrong and I didn't make the claim they're mainly students.  Regarding 'spoon fed' that's just about the reply I expect so not shocked.


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## IainP (Nov 18, 2019)

Few months old, but do need to be wary of the ONS in that area

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49420730

I agree it has been a mystery why successive governments/parties have failed to monitor properly/accurately when used for political arguments. Money I suppose.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2019)

IainP said:



			Few months old, but do need to be wary of the ONS in that area

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49420730

I agree it has been a mystery why successive governments/parties have failed to monitor properly/accurately when used for political arguments. Money I suppose.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, the numbers are a guess based on asking a sample of people at some ports and airports why they are in the UK.  "Excuse me Sir, are you allowed to be here or are you an illegal immigrant"
I have suspected that there are way more immigrants in the country than the statics indicate, it has been difficult to understand why the amount of NI numbers issued have been way in excess of estimated requirements.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 19, 2019)

IainP said:



			Few months old, but do need to be wary of the ONS in that area

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49420730

I agree it has been a mystery why successive governments/parties have failed to monitor properly/accurately when used for political arguments. Money I suppose.
		
Click to expand...

"The system has faced criticism, with two parliamentary committees concluding the International Passenger Survey is now next to useless on its own for government purposes."


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Most are students.
		
Click to expand...

So?

Still subject to UK 'control' if non-EU; still not subjet to UK ontrol if from EU!

And 'most are students' would be the case for non-EU immigrants every year - if it were true.


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## Mudball (Nov 22, 2019)

More project Fear... other countries think we have a smaller role in the world after Brexit ... Who needs the UN anyways.. bloody BBC bias... (anything I missed?) 

This was the story around the Chagos island


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2019)

Mudball said:



			More project Fear... other countries think we have a smaller role in the world after Brexit ... Who needs the UN anyways.. bloody BBC bias... (anything I missed?)

This was the story around the Chagos island



View attachment 28610

Click to expand...

Is it true or is it false


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## Mudball (Nov 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is it true or is it false
		
Click to expand...

Who knows... the only reality is that the UN voted against the UK in this case.    But it is non-binding and we know what to do with non-binding votes


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 27, 2019)

Roll on 2021

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199386821848899584


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Roll on 2021

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199386821848899584

Click to expand...

An almost perfect touchÃ© ...


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			An almost perfect touchÃ© ...

Click to expand...

Hoist and petard...

Did you notice how much the guy blushed? Brilliant!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2019)

SMMT on the UK car industry in the event of there not being a deal struck by the end 2020 and UK having to trade with EU and the RoW under WTO rules

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...rexit-would-cost-uk-car-industry-40bn-by-2024

What do they know...Project Fear LOL


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			SMMT on the UK car industry in the event of there not being a deal struck by the end 2020 and UK having to trade with EU and the RoW under WTO rules

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...rexit-would-cost-uk-car-industry-40bn-by-2024

What do they know...Project Fear LOL 

Click to expand...

Donâ€™t get Brexit Rules and GE rules mixed up though, opinions and facts on either page are allowed to be switched to support the argument.


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			SMMT on the UK car industry in the event of there not being a deal struck by the end 2020 and UK having to trade with EU and the RoW under WTO rules

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...rexit-would-cost-uk-car-industry-40bn-by-2024

What do they know...Project Fear LOL 

Click to expand...

Not saying anything about the article either way but I am aware that the American car industry shrunk by 17% last year at a time when US overall economy grew by a similar amount. Globally, car sales are down significantly.

Honda pulling out of Swindon is a terrible loss, but its not the only Honda plant closing. Great article in the FT earlier this year about Japanese manufacturers of various products closing plant globally and retrenching back in Japan. Trade deals similar to the one the EU recently signed with Japan has led to an unexpected downside. If they are no longer subject to import tariffs, they no longer need a manufacturing facility in the EU.


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## drdel (Nov 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			SMMT on the UK car industry in the event of there not being a deal struck by the end 2020 and UK having to trade with EU and the RoW under WTO rules

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...rexit-would-cost-uk-car-industry-40bn-by-2024

What do they know...Project Fear LOL 

Click to expand...

Do you expect logic from the anti Brexit Guardian. 'Brexit' and the UK are not the only things happening in the world !!!

Car production worldwide has too much capacity and the switch to electric is an opportunity to take on new manufacturing processes so this encourages facilities and their locations to be rationalised. The EU and the USA are saturated markets - car sales growth will be in the emerging economies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			Do you expect logic from the anti Brexit Guardian. 'Brexit' and the UK are not the only things happening in the world !!!

Car production worldwide has too much capacity and the switch to electric is an opportunity to take on new manufacturing processes so this encourages facilities and their locations to be rationalised. The EU and the USA are saturated markets - car sales growth will be in the emerging economies.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - but as a country we are not exactly doing ourselves any favours by leaving the EU just when car manufacturers are looking to pull manufacturing - hardly a risk mitigation activity...but what do I know.  On the car manufacturing industry I know nothing...other than what I read.


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## Hobbit (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - but as a country we are not exactly doing ourselves any favours by leaving the EU just when car manufacturers are looking to pull manufacturing - hardly a risk mitigation activity...but what do I know.  On the car manufacturing industry I know nothing...other than what I read.
		
Click to expand...

You could look at the EU's own investigation into EU's funding of the Jaguar move to the Czech Republic. Its on the EU's own website. It breaks EU rules but, unsurprisingly, the EU's own investigation comes down on the side of the ..... EU.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

We could always worry about a No Deal Brexit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-50628644


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			We could always worry about a No Deal Brexit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-50628644

Click to expand...

You mean that likely scenario when we can't negotiate a trade deal in a year when it has taken other countries many years to negotiate one?  Project fear mate, will never happen, As long as Andrew Neil is not on the other side we know Boris is not afraid of a fight and we'll be fine.


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## drdel (Dec 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - but as a country we are not exactly doing ourselves any favours by leaving the EU just when car manufacturers are looking to pull manufacturing - hardly a risk mitigation activity...but what do I know.  On the car manufacturing industry I know nothing...other than what I read.
		
Click to expand...

With all due respect I think before you continue to rubbish the UK and blame our ills on BREXIT based on the stories in UK-centric press's soundbites you should look at the international business scene. Other than the artificial growth in China, due to devalued currency rates, trade is hard and rationalisation is widespread. There are bigger pressures across the world than Brexit.


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## JamesR (Dec 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			With all due respect I think before you continue to rubbish the UK and blame our ills on BREXIT based on the stories in UK-centric press's soundbites you should look at the international business scene. Other than the artificial growth in China, due to devalued currency rates, trade is hard and rationalisation is widespread. There are bigger pressures across the world than Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't it quite risky, to be making such a massive change, when the whole world's business/economy is struggling?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You could look at the EU's own investigation into EU's funding of the Jaguar move to the Czech Republic. Its on the EU's own website. It breaks EU rules but, unsurprisingly, the EU's own investigation comes down on the side of the ..... EU.
		
Click to expand...

I could indeed.  But I am only observing that by leaving the EU the UK is simply exposing us to higher risk of a manufacturer deciding that UK manufacturing with the UK out of the EU is not as advantageous as it was when the UK was in the EU.

Of course a manufacturer might decide the opposite - when our new and expanded markets world-wide and the great tariff-free access trade deal we agree with the EU makes the UK an even _more _attractive manufacturing base than we have been when in the EU.  But that's all for the future and who knows.  All we know for sure is that manufacturers are looking closely and making difficult decisions _now - _and they too do not know the future of the UK.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			The Abacus has resurfaced


@HackneyAbbott

“The “lock ’em up & throw away the key” battle cry may suit a panicked politician in the middle of a general election campaign, but it isn’t going to keep us safe from another Usman Khan” ⁦
		
Click to expand...

And the connection with Brexit is?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			And the connection with Brexit is?
		
Click to expand...

MIA for most of this campaign, as member of the shadow cabinet, the content of the post is irrelevant other that it has nothing to do with the GE and therefore was unlikely to contain any gaffs. I have posted in this thread how many of the big hiter s in the labour party have been absent from the airwaves.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			MIA for most of this campaign, as member of the shadow cabinet, the content of the post is irrelevant other that it has nothing to do with the GE and therefore was unlikely to contain any gaffs. I have posted in this thread how many of the big hiter s in the labour party have been absent from the airwaves.
		
Click to expand...

Still irrelevant in this thread, maybe the terrorist thread would of helped,
plus you edited her comment with no context.
And have you questioned were all the tory big hitters are? Bit of balance would be nice at times.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Still irrelevant in this thread, maybe the terrorist thread would of helped,
plus you edited her comment with no context.
And have you questioned were all the tory big hitters are? Bit of balance would be nice at times.
		
Click to expand...

No I haven't .
I'll remove the post if it upsets you that much


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 3, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			No I haven't .
I'll remove the post if it upsets you that much
		
Click to expand...

Not upset at all, just difficult to workout whether some of your posts are for or against things with no explanation or context.


----------



## spongebob59 (Dec 3, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Not upset at all, just difficult to workout whether some of your posts are for or against things with no explanation or context.
		
Click to expand...

 deleted, thanks for doing my admin.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You could look at the EU's own investigation into EU's funding of the Jaguar move to the Czech Republic. Its on the EU's own website. It breaks EU rules but, unsurprisingly, the EU's own investigation comes down on the side of the ..... EU.
		
Click to expand...

It wasn't just jaguar land rover .. VW,BMW and Mercedes were all using that area and there was also an opportunity for the tier1 suppliers that work across all those brands, like the wheel and tyre assemblers, binnacle assemblers steering assemblers, suspension corner assemblers (basically Bosch! and a few others )

In the end that area will have some wealth generation and the local communities will benefit. Should they review, yes perhaps but just to see if it causes an issue. 
I know for sure JLR could not build to their required capacity in the UK and the other Euro sites like Magna kill the profit margin on the models they produce (but building jags is distinctly different to building VWs, Mercs and BMWs due to the attribute team fudging)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2019)

drdel said:



			With all due respect I think before you continue to rubbish the UK and blame our ills on BREXIT based on the stories in UK-centric press's soundbites you should look at the international business scene. Other than the artificial growth in China, due to devalued currency rates, trade is hard and rationalisation is widespread. There are bigger pressures across the world than Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe I rubbished the UK (btw we might be 5th, 6th or 9th largest economy by GDP, but I think we are something like 23rd in GDP per capita).

https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/ 

I don't believe I actually blamed any UK economic ill on the Brexit - what I did was point out that leaving the EU (especially without a deal) removes one very major reason for car manufacturers keeping their production in the UK when they are consolidating production around the world.  If you were looking to implement measures to keep car manufacturing in the UK, or protect it through a period of rationalisation, one thing you probably would *not *do would be to nullify one of the main reasons for the manufacturing plants being located here.

And I also suggested that leaving the EU might actually make the UK a more attractive place for car manufacturers when we have tariff-free access to the EU single market AND great new world-wide trade deals in place.


----------



## Mudball (Dec 4, 2019)

This might warm the cockles of the Brexiter.....   How long before this makes into mainstream media.  Read the 1st outrageous prediction for 2020 by Saxo

https://www.trustnet.com/news/7460917/saxo-banks-10-outrageous-forecasts-for-2020


----------



## harpo_72 (Dec 4, 2019)

Mudball said:



			This might warm the cockles of the Brexiter.....   How long before this makes into mainstream media.  Read the 1st outrageous prediction for 2020 by Saxo

https://www.trustnet.com/news/7460917/saxo-banks-10-outrageous-forecasts-for-2020

Click to expand...

Does that not sound like the labour manifesto intentions .. but without a definitive leave?


----------



## Mudball (Dec 5, 2019)

Not that Brexit is important till next weekend ...  (fwd as received)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1202507110828986373


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			It wasn't just jaguar land rover .. VW,BMW and Mercedes were all using that area and there was also an opportunity for the tier1 suppliers that work across all those brands, like the wheel and tyre assemblers, *binnacle assemblers* steering assemblers, suspension corner assemblers (basically Bosch! and a few others )

In the end that area will have some wealth generation and the local communities will benefit. Should they review, yes perhaps but just to see if it causes an issue.
I know for sure JLR could not build to their required capacity in the UK and the other Euro sites like Magna kill the profit margin on the models they produce (but building jags is distinctly different to building VWs, Mercs and BMWs due to the attribute team fudging)
		
Click to expand...

Genuine question.  What binnacles do they assemble. I only know a binnacle as a device used to create a horizontal level surface in ships and optical instruments.


----------



## harpo_72 (Dec 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Genuine question.  What binnacles do they assemble. I only know a binnacle as a device used to create a horizontal level surface in ships and optical instruments.
		
Click to expand...

Section of dashboard that includes all the instruments and  upper steering connections


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 6, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Section of dashboard that includes all the instruments and  upper steering connections
		
Click to expand...

Thanks.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 14, 2019)

Stolen from a friend:

“So congratulations if you wanted Boris Johnson as pm.

Please don’t celebrate too much though as you have work to do. You see us remoaners have spent three and a half years now telling you brexit was wrong but we’ve finally and completely lost. There’s pretty much nothing we can do now to stop it.

So, it’s over to you leavers. You need to get yourselves into gear to make it work. We need to see some of these benefits you’ve been able to see yet unable to properly articulate since 2016.

I hope you don’t mind but I’ve taken the liberty of writing a “to do” list for you.

1. Get brexit done please. When we say done we mean as promised so we’ll be looking for trade deals with the EU, Japan, Australia and Canada etc. In fact there’s about 40 deals covering 70 countries that need to be done please. Also with the US that doesn’t involve the nhs or chlorine. We want what you promised us. That was that we’d be no worse off than when we were an EU member. You need to crack on as this was promised by the end of Jan. You have seven weeks.

2. The NHS. We want the cash that was promised please. £350 million per week is about 72000 nurses so please get recruiting. This is important.

3. Scotland. Ok so these guys were promised they would remain in the EU if they remained in the UK. They’re pretty pissed. In fact they’ve voted almost exclusively for the SNP so they might want to leave. Equally you said the UK wouldn’t split so you’ll need to both grant Scotland its independence and keep it as part of the United Kingdom. Good luck squaring this circle. NB This is urgent.

4. Northern Ireland. Oooookay then. You’ve really buggered this one up. There’s a chance they could look to reunify with the republic now because they didn’t want to brexit. Regardless you’ve caused instability there where we and they can least afford it. NB This is also urgent.

5. The economy. Johnson keeps talking about unleashing the potential of the country. We need to see this soon if possible. We don’t want to see the downturn that “project fear” predicted. We don’t want to be poorer. We don’t want to lose out.

6. You’ll also need to “bring the country back together”. This might be tricky as a lot of people seem to be really really angry with each other.

That’s as far as I’ve got. Should keep you busy. So go and get all british about things. Roll up your sleeves, pull your socks up, dig deep and deliver what you promised.

And remember if you fail to deliver any of this it’s on you, brexit and Tory voters. You wanted this so badly and now you have it. We honestly hope we’re wrong and that you can make a success of this but if you can’t then we will forever tell you that we told you so.”


----------



## bobmac (Dec 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Stolen from a friend:

“So congratulations if you wanted Boris Johnson as pm.

Please don’t celebrate too much though as *you have work to do.* You see us remoaners have spent three and a half years now telling you brexit was wrong but we’ve finally and completely lost. There’s pretty much nothing we can do now to stop it.

*So, it’s over to you leavers.* You need to get yourselves into gear to make it work. We need to see some of these benefits you’ve been able to see yet unable to properly articulate since 2016.

I hope you don’t mind but *I’ve taken the liberty of writing a “to do” list for you.*
”
		
Click to expand...

And what are the remoaners going to do?
It would be nice if they could accept the majority decision and help, rather than continue to divide the country.


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Stolen from a friend:

“So congratulations if you wanted Boris Johnson as pm.

Please don’t celebrate too much though as you have work to do. You see us remoaners have spent three and a half years now telling you brexit was wrong but we’ve finally and completely lost. There’s pretty much nothing we can do now to stop it.

So, it’s over to you leavers. You need to get yourselves into gear to make it work. We need to see some of these benefits you’ve been able to see yet unable to properly articulate since 2016.

I hope you don’t mind but I’ve taken the liberty of writing a “to do” list for you.

1. Get brexit done please. When we say done we mean as promised so we’ll be looking for trade deals with the EU, Japan, Australia and Canada etc. In fact there’s about 40 deals covering 70 countries that need to be done please. Also with the US that doesn’t involve the nhs or chlorine. We want what you promised us. That was that we’d be no worse off than when we were an EU member. You need to crack on as this was promised by the end of Jan. You have seven weeks.

2. The NHS. We want the cash that was promised please. £350 million per week is about 72000 nurses so please get recruiting. This is important.

3. Scotland. Ok so these guys were promised they would remain in the EU if they remained in the UK. They’re pretty pissed. In fact they’ve voted almost exclusively for the SNP so they might want to leave. Equally you said the UK wouldn’t split so you’ll need to both grant Scotland its independence and keep it as part of the United Kingdom. Good luck squaring this circle. NB This is urgent.

4. Northern Ireland. Oooookay then. You’ve really buggered this one up. There’s a chance they could look to reunify with the republic now because they didn’t want to brexit. Regardless you’ve caused instability there where we and they can least afford it. NB This is also urgent.

5. The economy. Johnson keeps talking about unleashing the potential of the country. We need to see this soon if possible. We don’t want to see the downturn that “project fear” predicted. We don’t want to be poorer. We don’t want to lose out.

6. You’ll also need to “bring the country back together”. This might be tricky as a lot of people seem to be really really angry with each other.

That’s as far as I’ve got. Should keep you busy. So go and get all british about things. Roll up your sleeves, pull your socks up, dig deep and deliver what you promised.

And remember if you fail to deliver any of this it’s on you, brexit and Tory voters. You wanted this so badly and now you have it. We honestly hope we’re wrong and that you can make a success of this but if you can’t then we will forever tell you that we told you so.”
		
Click to expand...

I would give it back if I was you.

Absolutely pathetic and unbeliveable attitude.  If you genuinely believe in democracy and accept its result then the grown up thing to do is put aside your differences and do all you can to make this country a success on its new journey.   Some people really need to get a grip on reality.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 14, 2019)

bobmac said:



			And what are the remoaners going to do?
It would be nice if they could accept the majority decision and help, rather than continue to divide the country.
		
Click to expand...

Well - I’ll go to work , earn my wage , come home and feed my family , and cross my fingers and pray this doesn’t blow up in our face whilst a guy who hid in fridge tries to sort out our future and live up to all his promises


----------



## Twire (Dec 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Stolen from a friend:

“So congratulations if you wanted Boris Johnson as pm.

Please don’t celebrate too much though as you have work to do. You see us remoaners have spent three and a half years now telling you brexit was wrong but we’ve finally and completely lost. There’s pretty much nothing we can do now to stop it.

So, it’s over to you leavers. You need to get yourselves into gear to make it work. We need to see some of these benefits you’ve been able to see yet unable to properly articulate since 2016.

I hope you don’t mind but I’ve taken the liberty of writing a “to do” list for you.

1. Get brexit done please. When we say done we mean as promised so we’ll be looking for trade deals with the EU, Japan, Australia and Canada etc. In fact there’s about 40 deals covering 70 countries that need to be done please. Also with the US that doesn’t involve the nhs or chlorine. We want what you promised us. That was that we’d be no worse off than when we were an EU member. You need to crack on as this was promised by the end of Jan. You have seven weeks.

2. The NHS. We want the cash that was promised please. £350 million per week is about 72000 nurses so please get recruiting. This is important.

3. Scotland. Ok so these guys were promised they would remain in the EU if they remained in the UK. They’re pretty pissed. In fact they’ve voted almost exclusively for the SNP so they might want to leave. Equally you said the UK wouldn’t split so you’ll need to both grant Scotland its independence and keep it as part of the United Kingdom. Good luck squaring this circle. NB This is urgent.

4. Northern Ireland. Oooookay then. You’ve really buggered this one up. There’s a chance they could look to reunify with the republic now because they didn’t want to brexit. Regardless you’ve caused instability there where we and they can least afford it. NB This is also urgent.

5. The economy. Johnson keeps talking about unleashing the potential of the country. We need to see this soon if possible. We don’t want to see the downturn that “project fear” predicted. We don’t want to be poorer. We don’t want to lose out.

6. You’ll also need to “bring the country back together”. This might be tricky as a lot of people seem to be really really angry with each other.

That’s as far as I’ve got. Should keep you busy. So go and get all british about things. Roll up your sleeves, pull your socks up, dig deep and deliver what you promised.

And remember if you fail to deliver any of this it’s on you, brexit and Tory voters. You wanted this so badly and now you have it. We honestly hope we’re wrong and that you can make a success of this but if you can’t then we will forever tell you that we told you so.”
		
Click to expand...


You harp on about the country being divided then post this drivel,,, really great way of healing the rift.


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well - I’ll go to work , earn my wage , come home and feed my family , and cross my fingers and pray this doesn’t blow up in our face whilst a guy who hid in fridge tries to sort out our future and live up to all his promises
		
Click to expand...

To quote Eisenhower ' Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country'
Its time for people to put this behind them now and you should know better.


----------



## Old Skier (Dec 14, 2019)

Full circle then. Back to hearing what "mates" are saying, barber along soon.


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I served 22 years for the country already thanks 👍
		
Click to expand...

And that means what exactly, lots of us have served our countries but dont expect special endorsement for it.
I wont comment on you further as you have spoken volumes yourself.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2019)

Why do people who support boris expect everyone who hasn’t to suddenly fall in line with a speech boris has made!
Respect and accept the result by all means, but trust has to be earned and the serial liar has to do just that, earn the trust and as far as I’m concerned actions speak louder than words.

As for quoting an Eisenhower speech when it was actually JFK who said it, to an ex-serviceman is embarrassing and pretty much an own goal.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			And that means what exactly, lots of us have served our countries but dont expect special endorsement for it.
I wont comment on you further as you have spoken volumes yourself.
		
Click to expand...

You posted some tag line that included “what you can do for your country”🙄

Well as I said I have done plenty for my country including putting my life on the line for it - so now I’ll do things for myself and my family and I expect Boris Johnson to sort out the country as he has promised too

1. We expect the NHS to get a massive windfall and tens of thousands of nurses to be employed - that’s new nurses . More brand new hospitals , GP surgeries

2. Want to see the economy booming , less foods banks , less homeless people 

3. Want to see all these great trade deals 

4. See industry come booming back 

All the promises and the claims that have been made by Boris Johnson and his ilk.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You posted some tag line that included “what you can do for your country”🙄

Well as I said I have done plenty for my country including putting my life on the line for it - so now I’ll do things for myself and my family and I expect Boris Johnson to sort out the country as he has promised too
		
Click to expand...

Not worthy of a comment


----------



## Wolf (Dec 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			To quote Eisenhower ' Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country'
Its time for people to put this behind them now and you should know better.
		
Click to expand...

Was that not infact JFK inaugural speech and nothing to do with Eisenhower


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Why do people who support boris expect everyone who hasn’t to suddenly fall in line with a speech boris has made!
Respect and accept the result by all means, but trust has to be earned and the serial liar has to do just that, earn the trust and as far as I’m concerned actions speak louder than words.

As for quoting an Eisenhower speech when it was actually JFK who said it, to an ex-serviceman is embarrassing and pretty much an own goal.
		
Click to expand...

 OK JFK , doesnt change the meaning though.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Was that not infact JFK inaugural speech and nothing to do with Eisenhower
		
Click to expand...

 Nobody likes a smart ar5e


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Was that not infact JFK inaugural speech and nothing to do with Eisenhower
		
Click to expand...

Yes, my mistake.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			OK KFJ , doesnt change the meaning though.
		
Click to expand...

Whose KFJ? A mate of Eisenhower’s


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## Wolf (Dec 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



 Nobody likes a smart ar5e

Click to expand...

😂
Sorry mate, im a bit of a history geek😂


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



 Nobody likes a smart ar5e

Click to expand...

Opportunist.


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Whose KFJ? A mate of Eisenhower’s

Click to expand...

Opportunist


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## Wolf (Dec 14, 2019)

I have to admit people that moan because they can't accept that some of us still have an opinion that brexit is a bad idea and should get behind the country and do what we can to make brexit work make me laugh. Because usually they're the same people saying we have freedom of speech when they want to disagree with something or someone. 

I go to work I pay my taxes and contribute to society, why should I or anyone else do anything more  for the country to aid with Brexit, we have highly paid elected politicians put in place to carry out that precise job. I accept that the democratic vote means we leave but it is not down me to support it or change my mind because of it, its actually down to Boris and his elected party to deliver it and other promises they have made and to prove to me and the entire nation that this is best for us as a collective.


----------



## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I have to admit people that moan because they can't accept that some of us still have an opinion that brexit is a bad idea and should get behind the country and do what we can to make brexit work make me laugh. Because usually they're the same people saying we have freedom of speech when they want to disagree with something or someone.

I go to work I pay my taxes and contribute to society, why should I or anyone else do anything more  for the country to aid with Brexit, we have highly paid elected politicians put in place to carry out that precise job. I accept that the democratic vote means we leave but it is not down me to support it or change my mind because of it, its actually down to Boris and his elected party to deliver it and other promises they have made and to prove to me and the entire nation that this is best for us as a collective.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on! 

There's a working majority now that should address so many different issues.  Here's hoping...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 14, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I have to admit people that moan because they can't accept that some of us still have an opinion that brexit is a bad idea and should get behind the country and do what we can to make brexit work make me laugh. Because usually they're the same people saying we have freedom of speech when they want to disagree with something or someone.

I go to work I pay my taxes and contribute to society, why should I or anyone else do anything more  for the country to aid with Brexit, we have highly paid elected politicians put in place to carry out that precise job. I accept that the democratic vote means we leave but it is not down me to support it or change my mind because of it, its actually down to Boris and his elected party to deliver it and other promises they have made and to prove to me and the entire nation that this is best for us as a collective.
		
Click to expand...

👏👏

Well said

There are no excuses now, they have the majority and the mandate.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I have to admit people that moan because they can't accept that some of us still have an opinion that brexit is a bad idea and should get behind the country and do what we can to make brexit work make me laugh. Because usually they're the same people saying we have freedom of speech when they want to disagree with something or someone.

I go to work I pay my taxes and contribute to society, why should I or anyone else do anything more  for the country to aid with Brexit, we have highly paid elected politicians put in place to carry out that precise job. I accept that the democratic vote means we leave but it is not down me to support it or change my mind because of it, its actually down to Boris and his elected party to deliver it and other promises they have made and to prove to me and the entire nation that this is best for us as a collective.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree, I voted Leave, look forward to leaving but at no cost do I want a No Deal, hopefully boris will pull it off and we get sorted.


----------



## Dando (Dec 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Stolen from a friend:

“So congratulations if you wanted Boris Johnson as pm.

Please don’t celebrate too much though as you have work to do. You see us remoaners have spent three and a half years now telling you brexit was wrong but we’ve finally and completely lost. There’s pretty much nothing we can do now to stop it.

So, it’s over to you leavers. You need to get yourselves into gear to make it work. We need to see some of these benefits you’ve been able to see yet unable to properly articulate since 2016.

I hope you don’t mind but I’ve taken the liberty of writing a “to do” list for you.

1. Get brexit done please. When we say done we mean as promised so we’ll be looking for trade deals with the EU, Japan, Australia and Canada etc. In fact there’s about 40 deals covering 70 countries that need to be done please. Also with the US that doesn’t involve the nhs or chlorine. We want what you promised us. That was that we’d be no worse off than when we were an EU member. You need to crack on as this was promised by the end of Jan. You have seven weeks.

2. The NHS. We want the cash that was promised please. £350 million per week is about 72000 nurses so please get recruiting. This is important.

3. Scotland. Ok so these guys were promised they would remain in the EU if they remained in the UK. They’re pretty pissed. In fact they’ve voted almost exclusively for the SNP so they might want to leave. Equally you said the UK wouldn’t split so you’ll need to both grant Scotland its independence and keep it as part of the United Kingdom. Good luck squaring this circle. NB This is urgent.

4. Northern Ireland. Oooookay then. You’ve really buggered this one up. There’s a chance they could look to reunify with the republic now because they didn’t want to brexit. Regardless you’ve caused instability there where we and they can least afford it. NB This is also urgent.

5. The economy. Johnson keeps talking about unleashing the potential of the country. We need to see this soon if possible. We don’t want to see the downturn that “project fear” predicted. We don’t want to be poorer. We don’t want to lose out.

6. You’ll also need to “bring the country back together”. This might be tricky as a lot of people seem to be really really angry with each other.

That’s as far as I’ve got. Should keep you busy. So go and get all british about things. Roll up your sleeves, pull your socks up, dig deep and deliver what you promised.

And remember if you fail to deliver any of this it’s on you, brexit and Tory voters. You wanted this so badly and now you have it. We honestly hope we’re wrong and that you can make a success of this but if you can’t then we will forever tell you that we told you so.”
		
Click to expand...

Another idiot (not you Phil) going on about that poxy bus


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 14, 2019)

Dando said:



			Another idiot (not you Phil) going on about that poxy bus
		
Click to expand...

The Bus was and still is a significant and iconic symbol of the Referendum - it was a big slogan with a very high monetary figure on it with a very high profile pinch point below - the marketing team knew exactly the message it was trying to say and it had an affect - people wont forget it and they expect that message to be delivered


----------



## Dando (Dec 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Bus was and still is a significant and iconic symbol of the Referendum - it was a big slogan with a very high monetary figure on it with a very high profile pinch point below - the marketing team knew exactly the message it was trying to say and it had an affect - people wont forget it and they expect that message to be delivered
		
Click to expand...

It didn’t make any promises but people still go on about it


----------



## Blue in Munich (Dec 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Bus was and still is a significant and iconic symbol of the Referendum - it was a big slogan with a very high monetary figure on it with a very high profile pinch point below - the marketing team knew exactly the message it was trying to say and it had an affect - people wont forget it and they expect that message to be delivered
		
Click to expand...

Keep perpetuating the untruth Phil, really helpful.


----------



## IanM (Dec 14, 2019)

I don’t see the country coming back together.

Just seen a Tweet from Caroline Lucas saying Boris has no mandate!  Why don’t these people recognise the result of an election ?


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I have to admit people that moan because they can't accept that some of us still have an opinion that brexit is a bad idea and should get behind the country and do what we can to make brexit work make me laugh. Because usually they're the same people saying we have freedom of speech when they want to disagree with something or someone. 

I go to work I pay my taxes and contribute to society, why should I or anyone else do anything more  for the country to aid with Brexit, we have highly paid elected politicians put in place to carry out that precise job. I accept that the democratic vote means we leave but it is not down me to support it or change my mind because of it, its actually down to Boris and his elected party to deliver it and other promises they have made and to prove to me and the entire nation that this is best for us as a collective.
		
Click to expand...

Just re-read LPs post, its not suggesting Boris and his party sort out Brexit, its suggesting the people that voted for it are responsible for making it work.  Thats a little different , should we  individually set up trade deals, put more money into the NHS, recruit policemen etc.  If you believe thats fair then thats your prerogative, all I see is sneering and finger pointing at people that voted for what they believed was the right thing.  Also, one of the posters here supporting this voted leave himself.


----------



## Wilson (Dec 14, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I have to admit people that moan because they can't accept that some of us still have an opinion that brexit is a bad idea and should get behind the country and do what we can to make brexit work make me laugh. Because usually they're the same people saying we have freedom of speech when they want to disagree with something or someone.

I go to work I pay my taxes and contribute to society, why should I or anyone else do anything more  for the country to aid with Brexit, we have highly paid elected politicians put in place to carry out that precise job. I accept that the democratic vote means we leave but it is not down me to support it or change my mind because of it, its actually down to Boris and his elected party to deliver it and other promises they have made and to prove to me and the entire nation that this is best for us as a collective.
		
Click to expand...

Brilliantly put.


----------



## chrisd (Dec 14, 2019)

Blue in Munich said:



			Keep perpetuating the untruth Phil, really helpful. 

Click to expand...

I'm just looking forward to Phil's weekly reports advising us of the payments into the NHS


----------



## Wilson (Dec 14, 2019)

Dando said:



			It didn’t make any promises but people still go on about it
		
Click to expand...

Come on, it was a massive part of the leave campaign, so you can only expect people to go on about it!


----------



## Dando (Dec 14, 2019)

Wilson said:



			Come on, it was a massive part of the leave campaign, so you can only expect people to go on about it!
		
Click to expand...

They go on about it being a promise when it was no such thing


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## Papas1982 (Dec 14, 2019)

There's one big thing the people against brexit can do. That's accept it. 

For all the talk of what has to happen, there is a rift. That rift is because remainers have refused to accept the result for 3 years. 

As to phils copied post. Find me a political party that has delivered all its promises and maybe I'll take it serious. 

As to brexit itself. That's been held up for 3 years now. I'd settle for a hard brexit. Because thats what's best for me. And I don't trust any polictican for any party.


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## Hobbit (Dec 14, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The Bus was and still is a significant and iconic symbol of the Referendum - it was a big slogan with a very high monetary figure on it with a very high profile pinch point below - the marketing team knew exactly the message it was trying to say and it had an affect - people wont forget it and they expect that message to be delivered
		
Click to expand...

As iconic, or otherwise, the bus might have been it is singularly unhelpful to bring it up 3.5 years later. Its long since been rubbished, and rubbing people's faces in it is just going to cause argument at a time when its the last thing the UK needs.


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## Wilson (Dec 14, 2019)

Dando said:



			They go on about it being a promise when it was no such thing
		
Click to expand...

What was it then?


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## chrisd (Dec 14, 2019)

Wilson said:



			Come on, it was a massive part of the leave campaign, so you can only expect people to go on about it!
		
Click to expand...

Which had been proven to be inaccurate sometime before the vote


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2019)

Folk argued about the sums, but the “opportunity cost” is real enough.


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## Dando (Dec 14, 2019)

Wilson said:



			What was it then?
		
Click to expand...

It certainly wasn’t a promise!
It implied the money could go to the nhs


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Just re-read LPs post, its not suggesting Boris and his party sort out Brexit, its suggesting the people that voted for it are responsible for making it work.  Thats a little different , should we  individually set up trade deals, put more money into the NHS, recruit policemen etc.  If you believe thats fair then thats your perogative, all I see is sneering and finger pointing at people that voted for what they believed was the right thing.  Also, one of the posters here supporting this voted leave himself.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately if you look, you’ll see I didn’t support or like his initial post, I “liked” his attitude and answers to the replies he got! You really are having a bad night, well done on spelling JFK correctly at the 2nd attempt.
Next week’s quiz is how to spell the name of the band AC/DC.


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## Wilson (Dec 14, 2019)

Dando said:



			It certainly wasn’t a promise!
It implied the money could go to the nhs
		
Click to expand...

So an implied promise?


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## Wilson (Dec 14, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Which had been proven to be inaccurate sometime before the vote
		
Click to expand...

Yet they didn’t take it off the side of the bus!


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## Dando (Dec 14, 2019)

Wilson said:



			So an implied promise?
		
Click to expand...

Not a promise at all


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Wilson said:



			Yet they didn’t take it off the side of the bus!
		
Click to expand...

What about all the people losing their jobs, households being £4500 worse off, and all the other scare storys that would happen in the first six months if we voted leave from Osborne.  Its pointless regurgitating all this stuff now.


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## chrisd (Dec 14, 2019)

It's taken 3.5 years to get to this point and I really dont give a stuff - "Let's  get Brexit done"


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## Dando (Dec 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What about all the people losing their jobs, households being £4500 worse off, and all the other scare storys that would happen in the first six months if we voted leave from Osborne.  Its pointless regurgitating all this stuff now.
		
Click to expand...

He should’ve put it on the side of a bus then people would’ve believed him 😂


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately if you look, you’ll see I didn’t support or like his initial post, I “liked” his attitude and answers to the replies he got! You really are having a bad night, well done on spelling JFK correctly at the 2nd attempt.
Next week’s quiz is how to spell the name of the band AC/DC. 

Click to expand...

I admit it was a typo, you are just being personal about it and its too easy to make cheap remarks when people do it.  For example: you tend to write 'could/would of' instead of the correct 'could/would have' but so what, not something to ridicule you for is it? I don't because its petty.  If you want to belittle someone due to their typo/spelling then be very careful with your own grammar and typing.


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## Wilson (Dec 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What about all the people losing their jobs, households being £4500 worse off, and all the other scare storys that would happen in the first six months if we voted leave from Osborne.  Its pointless regurgitating all this stuff now.
		
Click to expand...

Nissan, Honda? Wasn’t a lot of that based on when we actually leave? Lots of households are worse off, look at how many are using food banks.

Fingers crossed for all of us that Boris makes a success of it, the NHS gets the funding it needs, the use of food banks drop and we prosper.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Wilson said:



			Nissan, Honda? Wasn’t a lot of that based on when we actually leave? Lots of households are worse off, look at how many are using food banks.

Fingers crossed for all of us that Boris makes a success of it, the NHS gets the funding it needs, the use of food banks drop and we prosper.
		
Click to expand...

Nissan and Honda were not mentioned.
No, it was suggested it would be within six months of voting leave.  I forgot another, the major recession. 
Of course we hope things get better and especially for the most deprived.


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## Wilson (Dec 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Nissan and Honda wete not mentioned.
No, it was suggested it would be within six months of voting leave.  I forgot another, the major recession.
Of course we hope things get better and especially for the most deprived.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree on the last bit, it’s easy to be “I’m all right Jack", but there are some people who are seriously struggling, and we need to help them.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2019)

Wilson said:



			Totally agree on the last bit, it’s easy to be “I’m all right Jack", but there are some people who are seriously struggling, and we need to help them.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, i agree. I would only add (to make a biblical quote) the poor have always been with us, its not a new phenomenon.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 15, 2019)

Boris has full control of his destiny and how we leave. The people have empowered him.
No point arguing, that opportunity has passed by twice. Once in a referendum and now after an election. If your a remainer who is moaning now, but voted Labour or Tory when you had another option in the liberals or spoiled your paper, you have no right to complain.
I voted liberal, we lost,  their is a clear majority.. so they can get on with it. I’ll judge their success come next election.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 15, 2019)

Dando said:



			It didn’t make any promises but people still go on about it
		
Click to expand...

The bus was excellent marketing - it was a clear subliminal message and it worked

What else do you think this means

“We send £350mil a week to the EU , Lets fund our NHS instead “

As said it’s an excellent clever marketing statement that was used very well by the leave campaign.

The money grabbed the attention - then NHS statement sealed the deal and people were thinking of that extra money going into the NHS - it was a very clever marketing message to grab votes and it worked , not sure why people deny it - and it won’t be forgotten about as well by many others





chrisd said:



			I'm just looking forward to Phil's weekly reports advising us of the payments into the NHS
		
Click to expand...

Not like you to be snide 🙄



Papas1982 said:



			There's one big thing the people against brexit can do. That's accept it.

*For all the talk of what has to happen, there is a rift. That rift is because remainers have refused to accept the result for 3 years.*

As to phils copied post. Find me a political party that has delivered all its promises and maybe I'll take it serious.

As to brexit itself. That's been held up for 3 years now. I'd settle for a hard brexit. Because thats what's best for me. And I don't trust any polictican for any party.
		
Click to expand...

So only one side is the cause of the rift then

And the political promises that have been made this time are massively different- this isn’t just for the next 5 years where if it doesnt work out an election can happen to rectify it - this is us leaving the EU , leaving the biggest trading block in the World and the financial securities that brought to us - the promises that have been must be delivered , this is our future and it must be delivered with the intentions to look after every single one of us because if it goes wrong then the consequences could be massively damaging

Over the past three years there has only been the same people who have had the power to delay Brexit - the MP’s

All we have done is cast a vote - that is the only power we have - it’s all with the government

As said I’ll carry on doing what I have always - working hard and looking after my family , and I hope the people who have been voted do what they are supposed to and look after us and the country - if they fail then they will be gone


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## Papas1982 (Dec 15, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*So only one side is the cause of the rift then*

And the political promises that have been made this time are massively different- this isn’t just for the next 5 years where if it doesnt work out an election can happen to rectify it - this is us leaving the EU , leaving the biggest trading block in the World and the financial securities that brought to us - the promises that have been must be delivered , this is our future and it must be delivered with the intentions to look after every single one of us because if it goes wrong then the consequences could be massively damaging

Over the past three years there has only been the same people who have had the power to delay Brexit - the MP’s

*All we have done is cast a vote - that is the only power we have - it’s all with the government*

Click to expand...

Obviously a rift needs two sides. *BUT, *the people who wanted Brexit haven't been protesting and campaigning to undermine the government. I'd not heard the term "tactical voting" until this term, and yet people (organisations) were set up to do just that and get a hung parliament again. 

Re the second bit, if you truly believe that, then the points made on that post i responded too are irrelevant, as all that Brexiters have done is cast a vote, it's not on them (as the post implies).


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 15, 2019)

Papas1982 said:



			Obviously a rift needs two sides. *BUT, *the people who wanted Brexit haven't been protesting and campaigning to undermine the government. I'd not heard the term "tactical voting" until this term, and yet people (organisations) were set up to do just that and get a hung parliament again.

Re the second bit, if you truly believe that, then the points made on that post i responded too are irrelevant, as all that Brexiters have done is cast a vote, it's not on them (as the post implies).
		
Click to expand...

Its on Boris and his team to sort out the future 

the rift has been caused by both sides , people are entitled to protest and demostrate - the reaction to some of them has resorted in violence which has escalated 

Insults thrown both ways , derogatory comments - all part of the divide between the two , and it won’t heal for a long time


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## IainP (Dec 15, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Boris has full control of his destiny and how we leave. The people have empowered him.
No point arguing, that opportunity has passed by twice. Once in a referendum and now after an election. If your a remainer who is moaning now, but voted Labour or Tory when you had another option in the liberals or spoiled your paper, you have no right to complain.
I voted liberal, we lost,  their is a clear majority.. so they can get on with it. I’ll judge their success come next election.
		
Click to expand...

Sensible words. I think you could add 2017 in also. Have generally felt the countries mood was 50-50 and surprised that didn't mobilise into votes. Guess too multi-faceted.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2019)

Jeez, the bus, still 😱. Let it go people, move on.


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## Dando (Dec 15, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Jeez, the bus, still 😱. Let it go people, move on.
		
Click to expand...

But it promised all that money to the nhs 😂🤣🤦🏻‍♂️


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2019)

Here's another fact for the bus lovers.......
Since the referendum, Britain has given Brussels £45,250,000,000.
Just saying


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Jeez, the bus, still 😱. Let it go people, move on.
		
Click to expand...

There is no time limit when it comes to political debate.............unless you’re the opposition
Happy Birthday mate.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What about all the people losing their jobs, households being £4500 worse off, and all the other scare storys that would happen in the first six months if we voted leave from Osborne.  Its pointless regurgitating all this stuff now.
		
Click to expand...

Er...That/those scenario/s were predictions for after we had left. There has indeed been negative effects, though less than predicted - even considering the £4500 was an 'up to' figure grabbed by both sides as the 'real' figure (fear mongering by Osborne/Remain and ridiculed by Leave).

Here's a length summary (from Wikipedia) of the real effects since the referendum - not pretty reading imo. It's extremely rare to have what seems to be almost universal agreement from economists!

*Immediate impact on the UK economy*
According to one study, the referendum result had pushed up UK inflation by 1.7 percentage points in 2017, leading to an annual cost of £404 for the average British household.[7] Studies published in 2018 estimated that the economic costs of the Brexit vote were 2% of GDP,[8][9][10] or 2.5% of GDP.[11] According to a December 2017 _Financial Times_ analysis, the Brexit referendum results had reduced national British income by 0.6% and 1.3%.[12] A 2018 analysis by Stanford University and Nottingham University economists estimated that uncertainty around Brexit reduced investment by businesses by approximately 6 percentage points and caused an employment reduction by 1.5 percentage points.[13] A number of studies found that Brexit-induced uncertainty about the UK's future trade policy reduced British international trade from June 2016 onwards.[14][15][16][17][18] A 2019 analysis found that British firms substantially increased offshoring to the European Union after the Brexit referendum, whereas European firms reduced new investments in the UK.[19][20]

Short-term macroeconomic forecasts by the Bank of England and other banks of what would happen immediately after the Brexit referendum were too pessimistic.[21] The assessments assumed that the referendum results would create greater uncertainty in markets and reduce consumer confidence more than it did.[21] A number of economists noted that short-term macroeconomic forecasts are generally considered unreliable, as they are something that academic economists do not do, but rather banks do.[22][23][21][24] Economists have compared short-term economic forecasts to weather forecasts whereas the long-term economic forecasts are akin to climate forecasts: the methodologies used in long-term forecasts are "well-established and robust".[21][22][24][25]

*Long-term impact on the UK economy*
There is overwhelming or near-unanimous agreement among economists that leaving the European Union will adversely affect the British economy in the medium- and long-term.[a][39] Surveys of economists in 2016 showed overwhelming agreement that Brexit would likely reduce the UK's real per-capita income level.[40][30][31] 2019 and 2017 surveys of existing academic research found that the credible estimates ranged between GDP losses of 1.2–4.5% for the UK,[39] and a cost of between 1–10% of the UK's income per capita.[27] These estimates differ depending on whether the UK does a Hard or Soft Brexit.[27] In January 2018, the UK government's own Brexit analysis was leaked; it showed that UK economic growth would be stunted by 2–8% for at least 15 years following Brexit, depending on the leave scenario.[41][42]

According to most economists, EU membership has a strong positive effect on trade and, as a result, the UK's trade would be worse off if it left the EU.[43][44][45][46] According to a study by University of Cambridge economists, under a hard Brexit, whereby the UK reverts to WTO rules, one-third of UK exports to the EU would be tariff-free, one-quarter would face high trade barriers and other exports risk tariffs in the range of 1–10%.[47] A 2017 study found that "almost all UK regions are systematically more vulnerable to Brexit than regions in any other country."[48] A 2017 study examining the economic impact of Brexit-induced reductions in migration" found that there would likely be "a significant negative impact on UK GDP _per capita_ (and GDP), with marginal positive impacts on wages in the low-skill service sector."[49][27] It is unclear how changes in trade and foreign investment will interact with immigration, but these changes are likely to be important.[27]


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2019)

In America there are more 17 year olds in prison than there are at college.
Which just proves if you look hard enough and ask the right people you can make facts say anything


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## Papas1982 (Dec 15, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Its on Boris and his team to sort out the future*

the rift has been caused by both sides , people are entitled to protest and demostrate - the reaction to some of them has resorted in violence which has escalated

Insults thrown both ways , derogatory comments - all part of the divide between the two , and it won’t heal for a long time
		
Click to expand...

I fully agree with that, but the post you put up didn't say that at all. It said it was on Brexiters to deliver.

I don't agree re the rift i'm afraid. If the result had been accepted from the start then the retaliation wouldn't have happened. Whilst i accept people have the right to protest, and that the retaliation to prtests has made the issue worse. There have been two votes now, both based around brexit and still there are people put there causing chaos. Part of being in a democracy is respecting the vote. Hiding behind "people are allowed to protest" doesn't wash with me when its all followed by snide comments and efforts to undermine (not aimed at you).

As to the healing, it'll take both sides, but those that still oppose brexit are already looking forward to saying i told you so. Hardly an outlook that suggests they're interested in healing.


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## Hobbit (Dec 15, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The bus was excellent marketing - it was a clear subliminal message and it worked

What else do you think this means

“We send £350mil a week to the EU , Lets fund our NHS instead “

As said it’s an excellent clever marketing statement that was used very well by the leave campaign.

The money grabbed the attention - then NHS statement sealed the deal and people were thinking of that extra money going into the NHS - it was a very clever marketing message to grab votes and it worked , not sure why people deny it - and it won’t be forgotten about as well by many others
		
Click to expand...

The £350m was debunked long before the vote. It was ridiculed long before the vote. Even prominent Leavers were distancing themselves from it long before the vote. 

"Not sure why people deny it..." Maybe because they are not stupid enough, once it was debunked before the vote, to believe it. There was reams in the media debunking it, and if you go back through the thread you'll find reams there too. 

"Clear subliminal message..." Now this made me laugh. How can you have a clear subliminal message? Its either clear or subliminal. The message was as clear as day, as was all the intelligent debunking of it, e.g. the rebate meant it was only £189m.

If you're hanging on to this as part of your argument... respectfully, a bit foolish really.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The £350m was debunked long before the vote. It was ridiculed long before the vote. Even prominent Leavers were distancing themselves from it long before the vote.
...
		
Click to expand...

Yet it still worked - imo!

Even the publicity about it being untrue gave it 'free' advertising!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Yet it still worked - imo!

Even the publicity about it being untrue gave it 'free' advertising!
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, the best think us “Leavers” could do is not to bite everytime it’s mentioned.

Surely if politics has taught us anything it’s the fact that if enough people believe/fall for an untruth, you’ll never change the mind of them all no matter how much you put them straight.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er...That/those scenario/s were predictions for after we had left. There has indeed been negative effects, though less than predicted - even considering the £4500 was an 'up to' figure grabbed by both sides as the 'real' figure (fear mongering by Osborne/Remain and ridiculed by Leave).

Here's a length summary (from Wikipedia) of the real effects since the referendum - not pretty reading imo. It's extremely rare to have what seems to be almost universal agreement from economists!

*Immediate impact on the UK economy*
According to one study, the referendum result had pushed up UK inflation by 1.7 percentage points in 2017, leading to an annual cost of £404 for the average British household.[7] Studies published in 2018 estimated that the economic costs of the Brexit vote were 2% of GDP,[8][9][10] or 2.5% of GDP.[11] According to a December 2017 _Financial Times_ analysis, the Brexit referendum results had reduced national British income by 0.6% and 1.3%.[12] A 2018 analysis by Stanford University and Nottingham University economists estimated that uncertainty around Brexit reduced investment by businesses by approximately 6 percentage points and caused an employment reduction by 1.5 percentage points.[13] A number of studies found that Brexit-induced uncertainty about the UK's future trade policy reduced British international trade from June 2016 onwards.[14][15][16][17][18] A 2019 analysis found that British firms substantially increased offshoring to the European Union after the Brexit referendum, whereas European firms reduced new investments in the UK.[19][20]

Short-term macroeconomic forecasts by the Bank of England and other banks of what would happen immediately after the Brexit referendum were too pessimistic.[21] The assessments assumed that the referendum results would create greater uncertainty in markets and reduce consumer confidence more than it did.[21] A number of economists noted that short-term macroeconomic forecasts are generally considered unreliable, as they are something that academic economists do not do, but rather banks do.[22][23][21][24] Economists have compared short-term economic forecasts to weather forecasts whereas the long-term economic forecasts are akin to climate forecasts: the methodologies used in long-term forecasts are "well-established and robust".[21][22][24][25]

*Long-term impact on the UK economy*
There is overwhelming or near-unanimous agreement among economists that leaving the European Union will adversely affect the British economy in the medium- and long-term.[a][39] Surveys of economists in 2016 showed overwhelming agreement that Brexit would likely reduce the UK's real per-capita income level.[40][30][31] 2019 and 2017 surveys of existing academic research found that the credible estimates ranged between GDP losses of 1.2–4.5% for the UK,[39] and a cost of between 1–10% of the UK's income per capita.[27] These estimates differ depending on whether the UK does a Hard or Soft Brexit.[27] In January 2018, the UK government's own Brexit analysis was leaked; it showed that UK economic growth would be stunted by 2–8% for at least 15 years following Brexit, depending on the leave scenario.[41][42]

According to most economists, EU membership has a strong positive effect on trade and, as a result, the UK's trade would be worse off if it left the EU.[43][44][45][46] According to a study by University of Cambridge economists, under a hard Brexit, whereby the UK reverts to WTO rules, one-third of UK exports to the EU would be tariff-free, one-quarter would face high trade barriers and other exports risk tariffs in the range of 1–10%.[47] A 2017 study found that "almost all UK regions are systematically more vulnerable to Brexit than regions in any other country."[48] A 2017 study examining the economic impact of Brexit-induced reductions in migration" found that there would likely be "a significant negative impact on UK GDP _per capita_ (and GDP), with marginal positive impacts on wages in the low-skill service sector."[49][27] It is unclear how changes in trade and foreign investment will interact with immigration, but these changes are likely to be important.[27]

Click to expand...

No they wernt, they were predictions made by Osborne that would happen straight after a leave vote.  When I have the will I willl dig out the links.

Heres one to be going on with.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564
https://www.politico.eu/article/accurate-prophecy-or-misleading-project-fear-how-ref


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 15, 2019)

It's done....get over it, and thats both sides. Trying to rub noses in it doesn't help.
I'm sick and tired of the war of words like little kids in a playground, every one  afraid to actually take positive action.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No they wernt, they were predictions made by Osborne that would happen straight after a leave vote.  When I have the will I willl dig out the links.

Heres one to be going on with.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564

Click to expand...

H'mm. I believe the first paragraph of that article correctly interprets his 'A vote to Leave ...' words!

That paragraph states...
'*Leaving the European Union* would tip the UK into a year-long recession, with up to 820,000 jobs lost within two years, Chancellor George Osborne says.'

Btw. I'm with Bunkermagnet - as I have been since the result!


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## drdel (Dec 15, 2019)

The PM has declared that the additional NHS funding will be made law!- A careful read of the statement on the 'Bus' will shows it never said £350m would all be spent on the NHS or gave a timetable.

Macron has asked that the UK does not become an unfair competitor - France  has never been 'unfair to the UK and broken EU rules to support its businesses - I might be wrong on that last bit !


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			The PM has declared that the additional NHS funding will be made law!...
		
Click to expand...

Well, given the actual figures, that's pretty much already the case so no 'law' required!

From FactCheck:

'Total health spending in England was around £129 billion in 2018/19 and is expected to rise to nearly £134 billion by 2019/20, taking inflation into account'

'Last year the government announced that an additional £20.5 billion in real terms will be made available for the NHS in England by 2023/24—though it’s unclear how much money will be spent on health overall.'


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## drdel (Dec 15, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Er...That/those scenario/s were predictions for after we had left. There has indeed been negative effects, though less than predicted - even considering the £4500 was an 'up to' figure grabbed by both sides as the 'real' figure (fear mongering by Osborne/Remain and ridiculed by Leave).

Here's a length summary (from Wikipedia) of the real effects since the referendum - not pretty reading imo. It's extremely rare to have what seems to be almost universal agreement from economists!

*Immediate impact on the UK economy*
According to one study, the referendum result had pushed up UK inflation by 1.7 percentage points in 2017, leading to an annual cost of £404 for the average British household.[7] Studies published in 2018 estimated that the economic costs of the Brexit vote were 2% of GDP,[8][9][10] or 2.5% of GDP.[11] According to a December 2017 _Financial Times_ analysis, the Brexit referendum results had reduced national British income by 0.6% and 1.3%.[12] A 2018 analysis by Stanford University and Nottingham University economists estimated that uncertainty around Brexit reduced investment by businesses by approximately 6 percentage points and caused an employment reduction by 1.5 percentage points.[13] A number of studies found that Brexit-induced uncertainty about the UK's future trade policy reduced British international trade from June 2016 onwards.[14][15][16][17][18] A 2019 analysis found that British firms substantially increased offshoring to the European Union after the Brexit referendum, whereas European firms reduced new investments in the UK.[19][20]

Short-term macroeconomic forecasts by the Bank of England and other banks of what would happen immediately after the Brexit referendum were too pessimistic.[21] The assessments assumed that the referendum results would create greater uncertainty in markets and reduce consumer confidence more than it did.[21] A number of economists noted that short-term macroeconomic forecasts are generally considered unreliable, as they are something that academic economists do not do, but rather banks do.[22][23][21][24] Economists have compared short-term economic forecasts to weather forecasts whereas the long-term economic forecasts are akin to climate forecasts: the methodologies used in long-term forecasts are "well-established and robust".[21][22][24][25]

*Long-term impact on the UK economy*
There is overwhelming or near-unanimous agreement among economists that leaving the European Union will adversely affect the British economy in the medium- and long-term.[a][39] Surveys of economists in 2016 showed overwhelming agreement that Brexit would likely reduce the UK's real per-capita income level.[40][30][31] 2019 and 2017 surveys of existing academic research found that the credible estimates ranged between GDP losses of 1.2–4.5% for the UK,[39] and a cost of between 1–10% of the UK's income per capita.[27] These estimates differ depending on whether the UK does a Hard or Soft Brexit.[27] In January 2018, the UK government's own Brexit analysis was leaked; it showed that UK economic growth would be stunted by 2–8% for at least 15 years following Brexit, depending on the leave scenario.[41][42]

According to most economists, EU membership has a strong positive effect on trade and, as a result, the UK's trade would be worse off if it left the EU.[43][44][45][46] According to a study by University of Cambridge economists, under a hard Brexit, whereby the UK reverts to WTO rules, one-third of UK exports to the EU would be tariff-free, one-quarter would face high trade barriers and other exports risk tariffs in the range of 1–10%.[47] A 2017 study found that "almost all UK regions are systematically more vulnerable to Brexit than regions in any other country."[48] A 2017 study examining the economic impact of Brexit-induced reductions in migration" found that there would likely be "a significant negative impact on UK GDP _per capita_ (and GDP), with marginal positive impacts on wages in the low-skill service sector."[49][27] It is unclear how changes in trade and foreign investment will interact with immigration, but these changes are likely to be important.[27]

Click to expand...

You state "It's extremely rare to have what seems to be almost* universal* agreement from economists!"

Selected material I assume you recognise these articles are not referred/cross checked or pretend to be balanced so are entirely the author's opinion - I think a bit of research from recognised authoritative bodies would hold more weight. I could find other references that would provide countering views.

Its interesting to note that London Estate Agents report a backlog of buyers and banks declared international investment interest and commitments have already risen.

The stock market is up as is sterling


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			You state "It's extremely rare to have what seems to be almost* universal* agreement from economists!"

*Selected material I assume you recognise these articles are not referred/cross checked or pretend to be balanced so are entirely the author's opinion *- I think a bit of research from recognised authoritative bodies would hold more weight. I could find other references that would provide countering views.

Its interesting to note that London Estate Agents report a backlog of buyers and banks declared international investment interest and commitments have already risen.

The stock market is up as is sterling
		
Click to expand...

Same applies to your post!

Has there ever (since the referendum) not been a backlog of buyers in London - even when the market has been described as 'depressed'? 

Sterling is still below the pre-Referendum rates against both Euro and USD!

But Hey-Ho, at least Bozo now has a sufficient majority to 'Get Brexit Done', so needs to get on with it (plus the trade deal) and start applying all the benefits that 'independence' brings! Meanwhile Labour's inability to recognise and address the reasons for their loss will mean there's little effective opposition - not a situation I'm looking forward to! While somewhat right of centre, I simply don't trust Bozo's ability to 'run the country' very much, though I hope I'm wrong!


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2019)

Dando said:



			But it promised all that money to the nhs 😂🤣🤦🏻‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

No it didn't!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Same applies to your post!

Has there ever (since the referendum) not been a backlog of buyers in London - even when the market has been described as 'depressed'? 

Sterling is still below the pre-Referendum rates against both Euro and USD!

But Hey-Ho, at least Bozo now has a sufficient majority to 'Get Brexit Done', so needs to get on with it (plus the trade deal) and start applying all the benefits that 'independence' brings! Meanwhile Labour's inability to recognise and address the reasons for their loss will mean there's little effective opposition - not a situation I'm looking forward to! While somewhat right of centre, I simply don't trust Bozo's ability to 'run the country' very much, though I hope I'm wrong!
		
Click to expand...

Didnt sterling take a referendum spike.


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## robinthehood (Dec 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Didnt sterling take are referendum spike.
		
Click to expand...

Do some looking for your self.


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## robinthehood (Dec 15, 2019)

drdel said:



			You state "It's extremely rare to have what seems to be almost* universal* agreement from economists!"

Selected material I assume you recognise these articles are not referred/cross checked or pretend to be balanced so are entirely the author's opinion - I think a bit of research from recognised authoritative bodies would hold more weight. I could find other references that would provide countering views.

Its interesting to note that London Estate Agents report a backlog of buyers and banks declared international investment interest and commitments have already risen.

The stock market is up as is sterling
		
Click to expand...

Just getting back to somewhere near where we were is not really acceptable is it.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Do some looking for your self.
		
Click to expand...

 What is wrong with people like you, I get accused of using insults and if I do its in retaliation but you just jump in unprovoked all the time making snide comments.


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## drdel (Dec 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Just getting back to somewhere near where we were is *not really acceptable is it*.
		
Click to expand...

It was a response to a previous post; so that context is relevant.

Based on the theme running through your previous posts I doubt you'll find anything acceptable. I was only just trying to look at the future rather than wallowing in past; IMO the direction is at least positive as opposed to the fear/negative stories that are resurfacing on here.


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## chrisd (Dec 15, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not like you to be snide 🙄
		
Click to expand...

Not like you to cut and paste utter garbage, and then a hundred posts, in order to wear down anyone who disagrees with you 👍


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## Dando (Dec 15, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			No it didn't!
		
Click to expand...

I was joking 🤦🏻‍♂️


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



*The £350m was debunked long before the vote. It was ridiculed long before the vote. Even prominent Leavers were distancing themselves from it long before the vote.*

Click to expand...

But it still worked imo - a good number of people imo voted to leave because of it , the impact of it was already done - I think it was very well done by the Leave campaign, possibly a vote swinger in their favour for people



			"Not sure why people deny it..." Maybe because they are not stupid enough, once it was debunked before the vote, to believe it. There was reams in the media debunking it, and if you go back through the thread you'll find reams there too.

"Clear subliminal message..." Now this made me laugh. How can you have a clear subliminal message? Its either clear or subliminal. The message was as clear as day, as was all the intelligent debunking of it, e.g. the rebate meant it was only £189m.

If you're hanging on to this as part of your argument... respectfully, a bit foolish really.
		
Click to expand...

Not hanging onto anything tbh and Which argument ?  - The bus was brought up and I replied about it - the leave campaign should take it as a triumph.

But people will still expect money to be funnelled into the NHS from any money we save from leaving the EU

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-nhs-tories-latest-nicky-morgan-a9216506.html

Not a good start


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2019)

Dando said:



			I was joking 🤦🏻‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Doh! How did I miss all those smileys!


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## 2blue (Dec 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What is wrong with people like you, I get accused of using insults and if I do its in retaliation but you just jump in unprovoked all the time making snide comments.
		
Click to expand...

You seem to have a lot of problems with everybody...  ruddy Dib Dibbers


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Didnt sterling take a referendum spike.
		
Click to expand...

It did - but only in the number of pennies required to buy 1 Euro!!

Refer your sig!


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## harpo_72 (Dec 15, 2019)

Just leave it be, we all have a yard stick to measure the amount of success or failure.
We will all get to pass judgement in 5 years ..
The boat has sailed, the game is about majorities. Get on with your lives as best you can .. and I wish you all luck as I would like success. 
I may not agree either but I know i am a minority.


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## Twire (Dec 15, 2019)

OK folks the personal insults and digs need to stop. Please debate like adults.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 15, 2019)

Not the news I wanted to hear


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206266132652539905


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 16, 2019)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119

Would we really lower our standards?


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## jp5 (Dec 16, 2019)

So first day in office and Johnson has bunged Morgan into the Lords, with a cabinet position.

So much for taking back control from unelected bureaucrats!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119

Would we really lower our standards?
		
Click to expand...

Probably not and some US standards are probably higher.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2019)

jp5 said:



			So first day in office and Johnson has bunged Morgan into the Lords, with a cabinet position.

So much for taking back control from unelected bureaucrats!
		
Click to expand...

Isnt that what labour did with Mandleson and Adonis.


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## robinthehood (Dec 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Probably not and some US standards are probably higher.
		
Click to expand...

No they re not. Really not , 100% not


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## robinthehood (Dec 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What is wrong with people like you, I get accused of using insults and if I do its in retaliation but you just jump in unprovoked all the time making snide comments.
		
Click to expand...

People like me ? Who are people like me ? I think someone who dedicates so much time to brexit should know such basic stuff.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			People like me ? Who are people like me ? I think someone who dedicates so much time to brexit should know such basic stuff.
		
Click to expand...

Post #16,672


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## robinthehood (Dec 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Post #16,672
		
Click to expand...

Yes everyone knows who that post is aimed at.😉


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## Hobbit (Dec 16, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119

Would we really lower our standards?
		
Click to expand...

bear in mind the US is a very litigious country, and payouts for food poisoning are massive. If the same standards are applied there’s nothing to worry about. Why would they operate two different standard? BUT if the US suppliers see it as an opportunity to offload inferior products, just what will the protections be?

Don’t forget, it will be the UK retailer that will be sued. Could they afford the court case?

Common sense says why have several different standards. There’ll still be produce coming in from the EU. Just have one set of standards.

It is a valid concern but I can’t see it being an issue.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes everyone knows who that post is aimed at.😉
		
Click to expand...

It’s aimed at you too 
This post is typical of the sort of remark we are clamping down on.

Please note


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 17, 2019)

AS others see the UK


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206634246187765760


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			AS others see the UK


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206634246187765760

Click to expand...

hilarious


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## Fade and Die (Dec 17, 2019)

Great start from Boris......

http://news.sky.com/story/no-deal-b...ays-to-transition-period-beyond-2020-11888618

Strong and stable at last! 💪😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

<shrugs> Brilliant - and the best thing is that he can do whatever he wants and there is nothing anyone can do - acceptance is such a relief.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

Great to see the buffoon increasing the chances of a No-Deal Brexit! 
Why on earth continue to play the bluffing game!


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Great to see the buffoon increasing the chances of a No-Deal Brexit!
Why on earth continue to play the bluffing game!
		
Click to expand...

so you’d rather he rolled over and did what the EU demand?


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			<shrugs> Brilliant - and the best thing is that he can do whatever he wants and there is nothing anyone can do - acceptance is such a relief.
		
Click to expand...

the joys of getting a majority


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			so you’d rather he rolled over and did what the EU demand?
		
Click to expand...

Were did I say that? I want the best deal HE can get for the Country and him to remain flexible.
Nov 30th were are 6 weeks from a decent deal, does the legislation mean he ignores it and crashes out on a No Deal and it’s unknown consequences?

How much money do we, once again, waste on a No Deal scenario? It has already cost Billions for no return.


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## robinthehood (Dec 17, 2019)

£ down.
Financials down
Nice work ...


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## ger147 (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Were did I say that? I want the best deal HE can get for the Country and him to remain flexible.
Nov 30th were are 6 weeks from a decent deal, does the legislation mean he ignores it and crashes out on a No Deal and it’s unknown consequences?

How much money do we, once again, waste on a No Deal scenario? It has already cost Billions for no return.
		
Click to expand...

The addition to the legislation means the transition period won't be extended beyond 31st December 2020, it has nothing to do with what will happen on 31st January.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

ger147 said:



			The addition to the legislation means the transition period won't be extended beyond 31st December 2020, it has nothing to do with what will happen on 31st January.
		
Click to expand...

I know, I’m talking about a scenario of 30th Nov 2020.


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## Beezerk (Dec 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Because he's a (mod edit)and that's all he has.
		
Click to expand...

Stay classy.


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## ger147 (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I know, I’m talking about a scenario of 30th Nov 2020.

Click to expand...

I just answered the question you posed i.e. does this mean he abandons his withdrawal agreement, it doesn't.

And what is the significance of 30th November? The significant dates are 31st January and 31st December next year, what is happening in November?


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## jp5 (Dec 17, 2019)

I see Zac Goldsmith is also in the cabinet and Lords despite being voted out by his constituents. So much for democracy eh!


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## MikeB (Dec 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			£ down.
Financials down
Nice work ...
		
Click to expand...

£ still at a 12 month high


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

ger147 said:



			I just answered the question you posed i.e. does this mean he abandons his withdrawal agreement, it doesn't.

And what is the significance of 30th November? The significant dates are 31st January and 31st December next year, what is happening in November?
		
Click to expand...

I proposed a scenario!
If the December 31st 2020 is enshrined in Law, we either, on that date, Leave with a negotiated deal or crash out on a No Deal.
So given he’s proposing such a definite date, what happens if next November we are 5 or 6 or 7 weeks away from a deal he wants but it would mean extending the talks in to Jan 2021 and the new legislation says no.
Are we really going to risk a No Deal to stay that inflexible?


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## Twire (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Great to see the buffoon increasing the chances of a No-Deal Brexit!
Why on earth continue to play the bluffing game!
		
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure he is bluffing, maybe he's trying to do as he promised and get brexit done.

Having a fixed transition date will certainly focus the minds of the negotiators on both sides. I don't want a no deal brexit, but I also don't want all the indecision we've had for the last few years, and fixing the deadline will help with that.


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## Beezerk (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I proposed a scenario!
If the December 31st 2020 is enshrined in Law, we either, on that date, Leave with a negotiated deal or crash out on a No Deal.
		
Click to expand...

Or....he's smart enough to set some form of deadline which will benefit his negotiating position, which he can then change again later down the line should he need to.
Btw, I'm loving the use of the phrase "crash out" which has become trendy again since this mornings news


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## DRW (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Great to see the buffoon increasing the chances of a No-Deal Brexit!
Why on earth continue to play the bluffing game!
		
Click to expand...

You do realise how the EU work on trade deals, last minute stuff.

And by just removing no deal, you really are at the mercy of the EU.

Think SNP and what they are doing, this is very similar. BJ is working his side and must be able to walk away on a set date and if that means No Deal then so be it. Simples really.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			£ down.
Financials down
Nice work ...
		
Click to expand...

Why do you spout garbage all the time? FTSE at record high and pound at a 12 month high.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Because he's a (Mod Edit)and *that's all he has.*

Click to expand...

That and the overwhelming support of the majority of the nation! (You are having a shocker this morning 😂)


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## ger147 (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I proposed a scenario!
If the December 31st 2020 is enshrined in Law, we either, on that date, Leave with a negotiated deal or crash out on a No Deal.
So given he’s proposing such a definite date, what happens if next November we are 5 or 6 or 7 weeks away from a deal he wants but it would mean extending the talks in to Jan 2021 and the new legislation says no.
Are we really going to risk a No Deal to stay that inflexible?
		
Click to expand...

If we are 5, 6 or 7 weeks away then we find a way to do it in 4. We could walk away without a deal or we could change the legislation.

All are possible outcomes to your what if scenario on your selected arbitrary date.

Legislation can be changed but it is a statement of intent from Boris IMO,  a very clear signal to the EU that he wants the deal done by Dec 2020, his response to Barnier who has already stated publically that it is not possible to do the deal by the end of 2020.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 17, 2019)

Unmoveable legislation, just like the Fixed Term Parliament Act . It is showboating, a negotiating stance, but is moveable if required. No need to get het up about it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Or....he's smart enough to set some form of deadline which will benefit his negotiating position, which he can then change again later down the line should he need to.
Btw, I'm loving the use of the phrase "crash out" which has become trendy again since this mornings news 

Click to expand...

Try looking back on my stance since this thread started, my biggest fear has been crashing out on a No Deal Brexit since day one, but don’t let that stop you from trying to look clever.


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## Twire (Dec 17, 2019)

ger147 said:



			If we are 5, 6 or 7 weeks away then we find a way to do it in 4. We could walk away without a deal or we could change the legislation.

All are possible outcomes to your what if scenario on your selected arbitrary date.

*Legislation can be changed but it is a statement of intent from Boris IMO,  a very clear signal to the EU that he wants the deal done by Dec 2020, his response to Barnier who has already stated publically that it is not possible to do the deal by the end of 2020*.
		
Click to expand...


Are we still paying the EU shed loads of money while in the transition period? This could be why the EU think it's not possible to do a deal by 12/2020


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			the joys of getting a majority
		
Click to expand...

indeed - and the joys of being able to take the plaudits for all successes and the brickbats for all failures.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			I proposed a scenario!
If the December 31st 2020 is enshrined in Law, we either, on that date, Leave with a negotiated deal or crash out on a No Deal.
So given he’s proposing such a definite date, what happens if next November we are 5 or 6 or 7 weeks away from a deal he wants but it would mean extending the talks in to Jan 2021 and the new legislation says no.
Are we really going to risk a No Deal to stay that inflexible?
		
Click to expand...

Could that be the point where GATT Article 24 (????) comes in to play? I seem to remember posts about needing to have an outline of an agreement in place to be able to use it. If we're that close to a deal maybe that could be an option whereby we will still have left but will continue trading as we do now until the deal gets signed off.


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## Beezerk (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Try looking back on my stance since this thread started, my biggest fear has been crashing out on a No Deal Brexit since day one, but don’t let that stop you from trying to look clever.

Click to expand...

Stop biting and chill mate, I wasn't having a go, I heard "crashing out" three times on the radio this morning that's all, and I found it funny that you said it as well


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Unmoveable legislation, just like the Fixed Term Parliament Act . It is showboating, a negotiating stance, but is moveable if required. No need to get het up about it.
		
Click to expand...

Then he needs to start acting Statesman like than playing games, it’s ok showboating and claiming this can be moved or that can be done etc, but at what cost and how close to deadlines would he need to do it.

How much money do we waste again on a No Deal Brexit so boris can showboat.

I really do want him to get the best deal he can, but his track record on dates and keeping his word isn’t exactly proof, he’s playing with peoples livelihoods.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

DRW said:



			You do realise how the EU work on trade deals, last minute stuff.

And by just removing no deal, you really are at the mercy of the EU.

Think SNP and what they are doing, this is very similar. BJ is working his side and must be able to walk away on a set date and if that means No Deal then so be it. Simples really.
		
Click to expand...

It not simples if it crashes the economy, why do we believe the EU will dance to our tune?
Maybe it’s time to stop playing games!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Could that be the point where GATT Article 24 (????) comes in to play? I seem to remember posts about needing to have an outline of an agreement in place to be able to use it. If we're that close to a deal maybe that could be an option whereby we will still have left but will continue trading as we do now until the deal gets signed off.
		
Click to expand...

That is indeed the notorious paragraph 5c - that Johnson may now have read, but will certainly have had explained to him.   See below for what Johnson previous had not had the time to read and understand...note that any plan and schedule is subject to scrutiny, modification and possible rejection by the WTO contracting parties

(_c_)   _ any interim agreement referred to in subparagraphs (a) and (b) shall include a plan and schedule for the formation of such a customs union or of such a free-trade area within a reasonable length of time. _


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## robinthehood (Dec 17, 2019)

MikeB said:



			£ still at a 12 month high
		
Click to expand...

Just terrible as opposed to absolutely terrible.
Sweet.


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Then he needs to start acting Statesman like than playing games, it’s ok showboating and claiming this can be moved or that can be done etc, but at what cost and how close to deadlines would he need to do it.

How much money do we waste again on a No Deal Brexit so boris can showboat.

I really do want him to get the best deal he can, but his track record on dates and keeping his word isn’t exactly proof, he’s playing with peoples livelihoods.
		
Click to expand...

He's making it law that it must be sorted by Dec 31st next year. Stop worrying.


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## DRW (Dec 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Just terrible as opposed to absolutely terrible.
Sweet.
		
Click to expand...

The pound has been going down for decades, look at the very long term trends.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That is indeed the notorious paragraph 5c - that Johnson may now have read but will certainly have had explained to him.   See below for what Johnson previous had not had the time to read and undestand...note that any plan and schedule is subject to scrutiny, modification and possible rejection by the WTO contracting parties

(_c_)   _ any interim agreement referred to in subparagraphs (a) and (b) shall include a plan and schedule for the formation of such a customs union or of such a free-trade area within a reasonable length of time. _

Click to expand...

If I'm reading that right it means that as long as we're negotiating a free trade area and can get it done in a few weeks we can use GATT until the deal is signed off but we will still have left. That would seem to satisfy Boris's claim that we will definitely leave by the end of 2020 but leave a bit of wiggle room to get the deal over the line. If we haven't got the broad outline of an agreement in place by the end of 2020 then the chances of actually getting a deal seem slim so we'd leave with no deal and negotiate from there.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

Colonel Bogey said:



			He's making it law that it must be sorted by Dec 31st next year. Stop worrying. 

Click to expand...

No, I won’t stop worrying until the No Deal scenario has been removed 100%, the fear for some of us is very real.

I’m more than happy to be told “we told you so” further down the line, but right now it’s my worst case.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, I won’t stop worrying until the No Deal scenario has been removed 100%, the fear for some of us is very real.

I’m more than happy to be told “we told you so” further down the line, but right now it’s my worst case.
		
Click to expand...

No Deal needs to be kept as an option if we are to get a reasonable deal from the EU. Otherwise what incentive do they have to negotiate? How long would you be prepared for negotiations to go on?2 years? 5 years? 10 years? For every month that they string out the negotiations we are still paying £1 billion (approx) to the EU. Where is their incentive to reach a deal if we say that we will keep negotiating for as long as they like and won't leave without a deal?


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## DRW (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It not simples if it crashes the economy, why do we believe the EU will dance to our tune?
Maybe it’s time to stop playing games!
		
Click to expand...

Slight over reaction IMHO and your not taking into account the position of the EU and UK. My best comment would be worry about No Deal if it happens and not before. If no deal happens than we and the EU have loads to worry about, so they will work it out and both will have to give, its just a matter of how much on each side.

If you are dealing with the only supplier on this planet for X, how are you going to get a good deal with them. Do you say 'Charge me us much as you like, tell me all the conditions and I will pay for it', ie. I don't want the best deal. Nope I would not recommend that route

The best deal has lots of elements, not just access, it has conditions, it has products/services, it has how much you are going to pay for access and trade offs etc. So lots of negotiating. A No deal is one stick that can be used to get a better deal.

If you think removing No deal for the table, is a good policy, it would be self destruction. If you believe that then sadly there is nothing anyone on this planet can tell you, that will keep you happy, apart from you better get your wallet out and get paying loads of money to the EU and rolling over to be hammered or maybe you should just stay within the EU, as you would be better off


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## Twire (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			It not simples if it crashes the economy, why do we believe the EU will dance to our tune?
*Maybe it’s time to stop playing games*!
		
Click to expand...


I think this is where our views differ. I see fixing the deadline as a positive, and a way of stopping the games.

He's been in office for less than a week without his hands being tied, and personally, I think he's making all the right noises.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Then he needs to start acting Statesman like than playing games, it’s ok showboating and claiming this can be moved or that can be done etc, but at what cost and how close to deadlines would he need to do it.

How much money do we waste again on a No Deal Brexit so boris can showboat.

I really do want him to get the best deal he can, but his track record on dates and keeping his word isn’t exactly proof, he’s playing with peoples livelihoods.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it is how the EU work as well. If we were dealing with a country such as Australia or Canada etc then I am quite confident that this would be unnecessary. All deals would go on behind closed doors and we would only hear about it went it gets signed. The EU showboat, posture all of the time. Look at Tusk, Verhofstadt and Junker, how have they been these last two years? 

I'm no Boris fan but I understand what he is doing here and I think this set of negotiations should go better as the EU now know we no longer have a lame duck leader. Boris is also not tied to his hardcore leavers so hopefully all will be a bit calmer and smoother.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			If I'm reading that right it means that as long as we're negotiating a free trade area and can get it done in a few weeks we can use GATT until the deal is signed off but we will still have left. That would seem to satisfy Boris's claim that we will definitely leave by the end of 2020 but leave a bit of wiggle room to get the deal over the line. If we haven't got the broad outline of an agreement in place by the end of 2020 then the chances of actually getting a deal seem slim so we'd leave with no deal and negotiate from there.
		
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That is my understanding - but note that our plan and schedule is subject to modification or rejection by the WTO Contracting Parties - complete rejection being unlikely with the EU on board (unless the timescales are seen as unrealistic) - but recommendations for modification are quite possible. And my understanding is that we have to implement the recommendations or we cannot implement the agreement we are planning to reach - see Article XXIV Para 7b.

_(b) If, after having studied the plan and schedule included in an interim agreement referred to in paragraph 5 in consultation with the parties to that agreement and taking due account of the information made available in accordance with the provisions of sub-paragraph (a), the Contracting Parties find that such agreement is not likely to result in the formation of a customs union or of a free-trade area within the period contemplated by the parties to the agreement or that such period is not a reasonable one, the Contracting Parties shall make recommendations to the parties to the agreement. *The parties shall not maintain or put into force, as the case may be, such agreement if they are not prepared to modify it in accordance with these recommendations. *_

(My bolded) in other words - we have to do what the contracting parties require of us and the EU.  Seems like life living under GATT Article XXIV is not all about UK being in as much control as we might imagine.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			No Deal needs to be kept as an option if we are to get a reasonable deal from the EU. Otherwise what incentive do they have to negotiate? How long would you be prepared for negotiations to go on?2 years? 5 years? 10 years? For every month that they string out the negotiations we are still paying £1 billion (approx) to the EU. Where is their incentive to reach a deal if we say that we will keep negotiating for as long as they like and won't leave without a deal?
		
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We will keep paying some money until 2026 regardless and still keep paying towards Staff Pensions until 2064!
We will stop paying the £39 Mil once we are out.
I’m not suggesting negotiate until forever, but all reports, all negotiations etc from every where in the world has at least taken 2 years plus.
Putting possible unrealistic time frames and then suggesting “oh it doesn’t matter because we can change it” is stupid imo.
How about he gets 31st Jan done, starts the negotiations and gets feedback on timescales, how will it look in Spring if the 31st Dec doesn’t look like happening? New legislation, more billions spent on a No Deal Scenario? These things take time and to put hard and fast deadlines in stone and then excuse them as easily changeable is daft.
What if the EU do the same tactic?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 17, 2019)

DRW said:



			Slight over reaction IMHO and your not taking into account the position of the EU and UK. My best comment would be worry about No Deal if it happens and not before. If no deal happens than we and the EU have loads to worry about, so they will work it out and both will have to give, its just a matter of how much on each side.

If you are dealing with the only supplier on this planet for X, how are you going to get a good deal with them. Do you say 'Charge me us much as you like, tell me all the conditions and I will pay for it', ie. I don't want the best deal. Nope I would not recommend that route

The best deal has lots of elements, not just access, it has conditions, it has products/services, it has how much you are going to pay for access and trade offs etc. So lots of negotiating. A No deal is one stick that can be used to get a better deal.

If you think removing No deal for the table, is a good policy, it would be self destruction. If you believe that then sadly there is nothing anyone on this planet can tell you, that will keep you happy, apart from you better get your wallet out and get paying loads of money to the EU and rolling over to be hammered or maybe you should just stay within the EU, as you would be better off
		
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It may be an over-reaction and like I’ve said I’d be over the moon to be proved wrong.
I can only judge it on what we’ve seen so far and the fact is I’ve personally experienced the pitfalls of a No Deal scenario, as a family we’ve experienced shortages and changes to medical supplies, not good when looking after someone is terminally ill.

A No Deal scenario and the planning that goes in to it, whether it happens or not has real impacts on peoples lives as seen a few months back.


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2019)

Barnier and Brussels have always used the tactic of stonewalling while the UK keeps paying. They were emboldened by the Remain tactics so their stonewalling led them to think Brexit could be stopped. They now need to rethink.

A legally backed end date is sensible - all 'deals' and negotiations need a clear drop dead point. The EU-UK have many things already wrapped/agreed in the WA. The remaining 'trade' deals are already starting from the basis that we already have regulatory alignment and 'free' trade. It is not like 'Canada'' where alignment had to be addressed: if the will is there it can be done.

If a 'deal' is close the PM can easily bring in a Bill and extend; if there's no basis after another 12 months on top of the 3 years of discussions then IMO there is little point in continuing to keep rabbiting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Which is all well and good and a great idea until we discover that maybe it wasn't.  No matter.  It's what the people want and why they have elected Johnson and his buddies.  Maybe with the Fixed Term stuff binned we'll find him calling election in advance of the economy going down the pan following a no deal exit.  But hey - could be years ahead...and we're stuck with the fella.


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is all well and good and a great idea until we discover that maybe it wasn't.  No matter.  It's what the people want and why they have elected Johnson and his buddies.  Maybe with the Fixed Term stuff binned we'll find him calling election in advance of the economy going down the pan following a no deal exit.  But hey - could be years ahead...and we're stuck with the fella.
		
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You might want to reflect on the fact that the EU's future economic forecast outlook is pretty dire and well below the growth the UK is achieving. If logic prevails they and the UK will realise that a sensible way forward is good for both.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 17, 2019)

Twire said:



			I think this is where our views differ. I see fixing the deadline as a positive, and a way of stopping the games.

He's been in office for less than a week without his hands being tied, and personally, I think he's making all the right noises.
		
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As long as it’s about getting the best deal possible as opposed to the quickest deal possible 

And it’s a deal that helps out all nations and one that doesn’t cut of the likes of NI , Scotland etc 

Being strong is good - hopefully it doesn’t step over to stubborn. And no one really wants no deal - it’s too daft


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			You might want to reflect on the fact that the EU's future economic forecast outlook is pretty dire and well below the growth the UK is achieving. If logic prevails they and the UK will realise that a sensible way forward is good for both.
		
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I'm cool with everything now.  It is what it is.  But remember - we don't believe economic forecasts...


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is all well and good and a great idea until we discover that maybe it wasn't.  No matter.  It's what the people want and why they have elected Johnson and his buddies.  Maybe with the Fixed Term stuff binned we'll find him calling election in advance of the economy going down the pan following a no deal exit.  But hey - could be years ahead...and we're stuck with the fella.[/QUOTE

change the bloody record.
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Sorry - it's a Long Player...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm cool with everything now.  It is what it is.  But remember - we don't believe economic forecasts...

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Feel free to believe what makes you warm and happy, we all have our preferences


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Feel free to believe what makes you warm and happy, we all have our preferences
		
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Indeed - none are mine but it is what we have.  Acceptance is a marvellous thing.


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - it's a Long Player...
		
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its a boring broken record


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2019)

Dando said:



			its a boring broken record
		
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The record isn't broken - it's now simply the wrong record


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			Barnier and Brussels have always used the tactic of stonewalling while the UK keeps paying. They were emboldened by the Remain tactics so their stonewalling led them to think Brexit could be stopped. They now need to rethink.

A legally backed end date is sensible - all 'deals' and negotiations need a clear drop dead point. The EU-UK have many things already wrapped/agreed in the WA. The *remaining 'trade' deals* are already starting from the basis that we already have regulatory alignment and 'free' trade. It is not like 'Canada'' where alignment had to be addressed: if the will is there it can be done.

If a 'deal' is close the PM can easily bring in a Bill and extend; if there's no basis after another 12 months on top of the 3 years of discussions then IMO there is little point in continuing to keep rabbiting.
		
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I'd agree with most of this. But I'd remove any 'trade' deals from any requirement for the Withdrawal (Agreement). These, while in both sides interests to get agreed, are likely to take considerable time and there is nothing in A50 about agreements other than 'withdrawal'. 

So these are simply 'new' trade deals that shouldn't affect the actual withdrawal.

Oh and a 'legally backed' end date is just a PR exercise! BoJo has already demonstrated that supposed 'fixed in stone laws' can be overridden!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'd agree with most of this. But I'd remove any 'trade' deals from any requirement for the Withdrawal (Agreement). These, while in both sides interests to get agreed, are likely to take considerable time and there is nothing in A50 about agreements other than 'withdrawal'.

So these are simply 'new' trade deals that shouldn't affect the actual withdrawal.

*Oh and a 'legally backed' end date is just a PR exercise! BoJo has already demonstrated that supposed 'fixed in stone laws' can be overridden!*

Click to expand...

Re: the bit in Bold.
Boris didn't demonstrate that by his own will, he was forced to demonstrate it due to being a minority government and the Remainers in Parliament creating a law to tie his hands.  Its not the same now, it's nothing like it.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Re: the bit in Bold.
Boris didn't demonstrate that by his own will, he was forced to demonstrate it due to being a minority government and the Remainers in Parliament creating a law to tie his hands.  Its not the same now, it's nothing like it.
		
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Your Sig applies!

How (or even Why!) he did it is irrelevant; simply the fact that he did it demonstrates the 'PR only' nature such laws will now have!


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Your Sig applies!

How (or even Why!) he did it is irrelevant; simply the fact that he did it demonstrates the '*PR only*' nature such laws will now have!
		
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Are you sure it wasn't more a bit of a litmus test for his own 'new' MPs (Speaker & HoC) to check he could get the new stuff through unhindered in the next 12 months?


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## IanM (Dec 17, 2019)

Whole new game now.... Boris has a majority.


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## patricks148 (Dec 17, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Why do you spout garbage all the time? FTSE at record high and pound at a 12 month high.
		
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looks like driving off a cliff edge isn't the thing to make the £ stronger, dropped again back to pre election levels.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2019)

drdel said:



			Are you sure it wasn't more a bit of a litmus test for his own 'new' MPs (Speaker & HoC) to check he could get the new stuff through unhindered in the next 12 months?
		
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Again...irrelevant!

And there's 'better' ways for him to get that message across!


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



*Again...irrelevant*!

And there's 'better' ways for him to get that message across!
		
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Thanks for the rather unnecessarily arrogant put-down.

I assume you reply with 'Fact' or is it just your opinion. More constructive to the debate if you'd said what the 'better' ways were.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 17, 2019)

Who really cares? Let’s watch what happens instead of second guessing everything!


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## Dando (Dec 17, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Who really cares? Let’s watch what happens instead of second guessing everything!
		
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It’s a shame many on here didn’t do this as soon as the result was announced


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## Old Skier (Dec 17, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			AS others see the UK


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206634246187765760

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No their not, you blew it when you said friend


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 17, 2019)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ronment-climate-change-election-a9248611.html

Scaremongering or something to worry about?


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## robinthehood (Dec 17, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ronment-climate-change-election-a9248611.html

Scaremongering or something to worry about?
		
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Of course we should be worried,  but none of this should come as a surprise.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Your Sig applies!

How (or even Why!) he did it is irrelevant; simply the fact that he did it demonstrates the 'PR only' nature such laws will now have!
		
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No need for the sarcasm. Lets keep it adult.
Of course its not irrevelant, he did what he was forced to do by his oponents passing the Benn act, you cant honestly blame him for not carrying out his plan.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Just terrible as opposed to absolutely terrible.
Sweet.
		
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do us all a favour - have a view, express some evidence to back it but stop trolling


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2019)

Reported last night, a comment by Michael Gove. The workers rights element of the WA “May be omitted in favour of a ‘home grown‘ policy.”

That’ll go down well, especially in the constituencies recently won from Labour.


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## patricks148 (Dec 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Reported last night, a comment by Michael Gove. The workers rights element of the WA “May be omitted in favour of a ‘home grown‘ policy.”

That’ll go down well, especially in the constituencies recently won from Labour.
		
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I'd imagine by voting Tory workers rights were not high on the list, so it will make little difference....


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 18, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			looks like driving off a cliff edge isn't the thing to make the £ stronger, dropped again back to pre election levels.
		
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I'm sure a few hedge funds made a packet buying or shorting the pound or whatever the hell they do.  And as we know, that is the main priority.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 18, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm sure a few hedge funds made a packet buying or shorting the pound or whatever the hell they do.  And as we know, that is the main priority.
		
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I would tell them the management fee was covered then .. easy lifers


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No need for the sarcasm. Lets keep it adult.
Of course its not irrevelant, he did what he was forced to do by his oponents passing the Benn act, you cant honestly blame him for not carrying out his plan.
		
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It's irrelevant to the specific point I made, which you replied to!
I repeat...
How (or even Why!) he did it is irrelevant; simply the fact that he did it demonstrates the 'PR only' nature such laws will now have!

Of course, his action had relevance to what he was trying to achieve, but that's completely separate to the point I was making in the post you quoted!


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## robinthehood (Dec 18, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It’s aimed at you too
This post is typical of the sort of remark we are clamping down on.

Please note
		
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PNWokingham said:



			do us all a favour - have a view, express some evidence to back it but stop trolling
		
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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			...
I assume you reply with 'Fact' or is it just your opinion...
		
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I believe (so simply my opinion) that reminding them of the action he has taken against 'rebels' in the past would be the most effective method.

Btw (and completely unrelated to your post..). You don't seem to have fulfilled your (earning) potential as much as others in your 'trade' have! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50834994


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2019)

PNWokingham said:



			do us all a favour - have a view, express some evidence to back it but stop trolling
		
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Why?

No-one else seems to!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			It's irrelevant to the specific point I made, which you replied to!
I repeat...
How (or even Why!) he did it is irrelevant; simply the fact that he did it demonstrates the 'PR only' nature such laws will now have!

Of course, his action had relevance to what he was trying to achieve, but that's completely separate to the point I was making in the post you quoted!
		
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Thats a better reply.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Reported last night, a comment by Michael Gove. The workers rights element of the WA “May be omitted in favour of a ‘home grown‘ policy.”

That’ll go down well, especially in the constituencies recently won from Labour.
		
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Yes, it does seem like backtracking.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Reported last night, a comment by Michael Gove. The workers rights element of the WA “May be omitted in favour of a ‘home grown‘ policy.”

That’ll go down well, especially in the constituencies recently won from Labour.
		
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Ultimately though, it is about taking back control is it not? The UK govt, elected by the UK people devising it's own workers rights. If we don't like the rights then you elect a different govt next time around. Democracy at work.

For all the great chat about protection from Europe the whole zero hours scandal, scandal imo of course, has happened under their watch. Not must protection there.


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## drdel (Dec 18, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ultimately though, it is about taking back control is it not? The UK govt, elected by the UK people devising it's own workers rights. If we don't like the rights then you elect a different govt next time around. Democracy at work.

For all the great chat about protection from Europe the whole zero hours scandal, scandal imo of course, has happened under their watch. Not must protection there.
		
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For all the EU bluster the UK does implement the regulations unlike many other members. Why does the expectation deduce the UK will worsen workers rights?


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2019)

-



SocketRocket said:



			Thats a better reply.
		
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Only in that it's phrased so that only a complete idiot (or one in a 'full metal jacket') could misinterpret it!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			-
Only in that it's phrased so that only a complete idiot (or be in a 'full metal jacket') to misinterpret it!
		
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I will not bite.  I did explain clearly my opinion why Boris wasnt able to carry out his policy. You disagree so thats the end of the discussion for me.


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I will not bite....
		
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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2019)

drdel said:



			For all the EU bluster the UK does implement the regulations unlike many other members. *Why does the expectation deduce the UK will worsen workers rights?*

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Actually, that question should be to yourself!

There was nothing in LT's post that suggested workers rights would be degraded! In fact, there was some implied criticism!

In fact, exiring the EU could mean that workers rights could well be made more appropriate to the UK environment!


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## drdel (Dec 18, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Actually,* that question should be to yourself*!

There was nothing in LT's post that suggested workers rights would be degraded! In fact, there was some implied criticism!

In fact, exiring the EU could mean that workers rights could well be made more appropriate to the UK environment!
		
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I did not infer that LT was suggesting a downgrade. You might have missed that I was *agreeing *with LT's post! I merely observed that, in general, there is the common assertion that when changes to workers right are mentioned they are usually accompanied by a negative inference. Relax. Not every post needs to be starting a controversy.


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## DRW (Dec 20, 2019)

Thats it, we are off on the next magical mystery ride installment.

Suppose a second ref, is now out of the question.

Better get use to the EU, saying you cant have that deal for another year ......


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 20, 2019)

I’m still trying to figure out if this brexit deal is cooked in an oven or microwave. Boris claims it can be cooked either way but I am not sure.


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## Del_Boy (Dec 20, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm sure a few hedge funds made a packet buying or shorting the pound or whatever the hell they do.  And as we know, that is the main priority.
		
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To be fare the smart arses would have made even more by shorting the pound if old numpty boy Corbyn was getting in


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## spongebob59 (Dec 20, 2019)

Nice to see the new speaker  not allowing any amendments meaning a smoother passage, I'm sure this would not have happened with Berko.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			I’m still trying to figure out if this brexit deal is cooked in an oven or microwave. Boris claims it can be cooked either way but I am not sure.
		
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If in microwave someone better tell him to take it out of the metal foil container first - or it could explode in his face...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Nice to see the new speaker  not allowing any amendments meaning a smoother passage, I'm sure this would not have happened with Berko.
		
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Thinking that Bercow allowed all the amendments as there was a good chance of parliament voting for each of them - and that is parliamentary democracy at work.  Current situation sees there being no chance of any amendment getting passed by parliament so would be pointless accepting any.


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thinking that Bercow allowed all the amendments as there was a good chance of parliament voting for each of them - and that is parliamentary democracy at work.  Current situation sees there being no chance of any amendment getting passed by parliament so would be pointless accepting any.
		
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Or the Speaker respects the will of the people and is  as hacked of with the continued attempts at delaying the work of getting out.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Or the Speaker respects the will of the people and is  as hacked of with the continued attempts at delaying the work of getting out.
		
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As deputy he didnt select labours amendment to allow eu nationals and 16/17s the vote before the election.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			I’m still trying to figure out if this brexit deal is cooked in an oven or microwave. Boris claims it can be cooked either way but I am not sure.
		
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Oven ready I think he said but maybe a slow cooker would be better to bring out the full flavour of the ingredients. Leave it simmering until next December and hopefully it will be perfect, if not im sure a little more basting and flavouring could be allowed.  Chlorine should have diluted somewhat by then 😉


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## harpo_72 (Dec 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Oven ready I think he said but maybe a slow cooker would be better to bring out the full flavour of the ingredients. Leave it simmering until next December and hopefully it will be perfect, if not im sure a little more basting and flavouring could be allowed.  Chlorine should have diluted somewhat by then 😉
		
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Cook a sh@t sandwich? Would that be a toasted turdie...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Cook a sh@t sandwich? Would that be a toasted turdie...

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Sounds the perfect accompaniment to a Corbynated Chicken.👌


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## MegaSteve (Dec 20, 2019)

Seems team tory are big on honouring the referendum but remain piss poor on honouring any manifesto promises...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Sounds the perfect accompaniment to a Corbynated Chicken.👌
		
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That one’s gone off...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 20, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Seems team tory are big on honouring the referendum but remain piss poor on honouring any manifesto promises...
		
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How many days ? He has 5 years to miss them


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Seems team tory are big on honouring the referendum but remain piss poor on honouring any manifesto promises...
		
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😄 And how long has this new Government been in office? I tend to remember Boris getting a lot of stick from our lefties regarding him not getting any of his policies voted in the house.  Seems to be doing better all of a sudden


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## MegaSteve (Dec 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			😄 And how long has this new Government been in office? I tend to remember Boris getting a lot of stick from our lefties regarding him not getting any of his policies voted in the house.  Seems to be doing better all of a sudden
		
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Long enough to already have watered down promises made only a few weeks back...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			That one’s gone off...
		
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Slap a bit of relish on it, put it in a bun and there you are, a Big MacDonell Chicken burger, not many will notice as it was always a bit off anyway 😉


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Long enough to already have watered down promises made only a few weeks back...
		
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Getting Brexit Done, good start actually.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Getting Brexit Done, good start actually.
		
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Whilst taking the opportunity to shaft those that have (in his own words) loaned him their vote...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Whilst taking the opportunity to shaft those that have (in his own words) loaned him their vote...
		
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Yea OK. Think they wanted Brexit done.
Pretty quick shafting mind 🙄


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## harpo_72 (Dec 20, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Whilst taking the opportunity to shaft those that have (in his own words) loaned him their vote...
		
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Just got to tell them, you get what you vote for .


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Just got to tell them, you get what you vote for .
		
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Absobloominglutely!   One nation Tories.


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## MegaSteve (Dec 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yea OK. Think they wanted Brexit done.
Pretty quick shafting mind 🙄
		
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The 'promises' with regard worker's rights and minimum/living wage appear to have gone on the missing list...


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 21, 2019)

94 Liberals voting in the HoL
11 Liberals  voting in the HoC
That is just plain wrong


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## Hobbit (Dec 21, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Seems team tory are big on honouring the referendum but remain piss poor on honouring any manifesto promises...
		
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Tory majority at the election was 78. Majority for the Withdrawal Bill was 124.

Only team Tory?


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## woody69 (Dec 21, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Getting Brexit Done, good start actually.
		
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You think Brexit is done because he managed to pass the WA?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2019)

Lets not



woody69 said:



			You think Brexit is done because he managed to pass the WA?
		
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Yes, the clue is in the name.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Tory majority at the election was 78. Majority for the Withdrawal Bill was 124.

Only team Tory?
		
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Think they have 80 but I guess a number of others voted for it.


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## ger147 (Dec 21, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Tory majority at the election was 78. Majority for the Withdrawal Bill was 124.

Only team Tory?
		
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All Tories bar 6 Labour MP's. The majority was 124 as 53 MP's didn't vote.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 21, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			94 Liberals voting in the HoL
11 Liberals  voting in the HoC
That is just plain wrong
		
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How does that work? Do they live longer?????


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## woody69 (Dec 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Lets not
Yes, the clue is in the name.
		
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Then I'm afraid to say you're in for a bit of a shock. For starters, after 31st Jan we will still be in the Single Market and Customs Union. "Brexit" won't actually happen until Dec 2020 and due to the incredibly short time frame I suspect we'll be going out with a "no deal".

After the negotiations are finished and signatures are on paper, only then will businesses be able to start making changes to their computer systems so as to comply with the new regulations - which will apply to all those sectors where frictionless trade is not the result.

It was in order to allow companies to make those changes that the original 'transition period' of 2 years was included in the plans. We've now got 11 months to complete the negotiations and to get those changes made.

Lunacy.


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## woofers (Dec 24, 2019)

Is there a chance that the passing of the Withdrawal Agreement and the significance of the ‘leaving’ on 31st January happening might just spur everyone including the EU to take things seriously and hasten the main points to a position of agreement by December 2020 ? After all ’No Deal’ isn‘t something the EU want is it ? Or don’t they care either way ?


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## drdel (Dec 24, 2019)

woofers said:



			Is there a chance that the passing of the Withdrawal Agreement and the significance of the ‘leaving’ on 31st January happening might just spur everyone including the EU to take things seriously and hasten the main points to a position of agreement by December 2020 ? After all ’No Deal’ isn‘t something the EU want is it ? Or *don’t they care either wa*y ?
		
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That might have been right 3 years ago and may still be so but the EU's economics has changed dramatically with Germany's manufacturing tanking and Italy, Poland, Spain and others disliking the Brussels new budget plans and dictats. They _*should *_want a sensible deal but I'm not sure Barnier et al care about anything other than losing face.


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 24, 2019)

woofers said:



			Is there a chance that the passing of the Withdrawal Agreement and the significance of the ‘leaving’ on 31st January happening might just spur everyone including the EU to take things seriously and hasten the main points to a position of agreement by December 2020 ? *After all ’No Deal’ isn‘t something the EU want is it ? Or don’t they care either way* ?
		
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Both sides have always wanted a deal.  There is just a lot of posturing/elections to be won etc etc on both sides for the respective domestic audiences before we get there.


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## drdel (Dec 24, 2019)

Taking  a 'Brexit banter' break - Have a Great Christmas and good health


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## drdel (Dec 28, 2019)

Amused by the suggestion the EU might request more time (not that it might not be wise) - I think I recall Barnier et. al. declaring in September that they were well prepared and totally ready if the UK went for a No Deal!

I'd have hoped that after 40 years of trading there should not be much *RE*-alignment to take place and been preparing for 3+years the EU-UK should know the known unknowns there ought not to be many unknown, unknowns!


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## Hobbit (Dec 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Amused by the suggestion the EU might request more time (not that it might not be wise) - I think I recall Barnier et. al. declaring in September that they were well prepared and totally ready if the UK went for a No Deal!

I'd have hoped that after 40 years of trading there should not be much *RE*-alignment to take place and been preparing for 3+years the EU-UK should know the known unknowns there ought not to be many unknown, unknowns!
		
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I wonder if the EU request for more time might mean that as its them asking for it they will be willing to forego that monthly payment of (now) over £1bn?


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## Dando (Dec 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I wonder if the EU request for more time might mean that as its them asking for it they will be willing to forego that monthly payment of (now) over £1bn?
		
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imagine the uproar and name calling if we’d asked for an extension.
I guess the usual suspects on here won’t say a word about this


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Amused by the suggestion the EU might request more time (not that it might not be wise) - I think I recall Barnier et. al. declaring in September that they were well prepared and totally ready if the UK went for a No Deal!

I'd have hoped that after 40 years of trading there should not be much *RE*-alignment to take place and been preparing for 3+years the EU-UK should know the known unknowns there ought not to be many unknown, unknowns!
		
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Do you have a link to this possibility, can’t find any info on net?


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## robinthehood (Dec 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Do you have a link to this possibility, can’t find any info on net? 

Click to expand...

Was on the BBC web site.


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## Old Skier (Dec 28, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Do you have a link to this possibility, can’t find any info on net? 

Click to expand...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50928295


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 28, 2019)

drdel said:



			Amused by the suggestion the EU might request more time (not that it might not be wise) - I think I recall Barnier et. al. declaring in September that they were well prepared and totally ready if the UK went for a No Deal!

I'd have hoped that after 40 years of trading there should not be much *RE*-alignment to take place and been preparing for 3+years the EU-UK should know the known unknowns there ought not to be many unknown, unknowns!
		
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She's just said that it is a short time frame to agree a trade deal.  And I'm sure she'd be more than happy to not have to worry about much re-alignment and to carry on much the same as we have for the previous 40 years. Nothing to do with no deal as they want to do a deal. 

I know Boris has some oven ready deal apparently but using recent experience he tends to say a lot of things that are not quite true in the cold light of day in this area.  And a lot of other commentators have agreed with her based on how long it has taken other countries to agree a deal with the EU.  No ones saying it can't be done.


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## IanM (Dec 28, 2019)

By "extend"  they mean "keep paying"


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## Hacker Khan (Dec 28, 2019)

IanM said:



			By "extend"  they mean "keep paying" 

Click to expand...

Trouble is that if we go into trade deal negotiations thinking that they are desperate to keep us in there as long as possible as we are paying then I suspect we will get a rude awakening. They are as desperate to get it sorted out and to move on as we are.


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## drdel (Dec 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			She's just said that it is a short time frame to agree a trade deal.  And I'm sure she'd be more than happy to not have to worry about much re-alignment and to carry on much the same as we have for the previous 40 years. Nothing to do with no deal as they want to do a deal.

I know Boris has some oven ready deal apparently but using recent experience he tends to say a lot of things that are not quite true in the cold light of day in this area.  And a lot of other commentators have agreed with her based on how long it has taken other countries to agree a deal with the EU.  No ones saying it can't be done.
		
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But the 'other' countries were not previously members of the same trading group for several decades so had divergent standards.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 29, 2019)

5000 Britain First  members have now joined the Tory party, according to it's leader.
Is this the shape of things to come.


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## IanM (Dec 29, 2019)

Oh dear. more trolling 

That org has never has anything like that number of members.  Hope not Hate even  tweeted that the figure is less than one thousand.   I guess they all joined 4 or 5 times eh?

...other Twitter feeds are worth reading


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## harpo_72 (Jan 3, 2020)

It would be amusing if the EU delay the exit and make the tax evasion rules apply .. but dunno how they would nor do I understand how they can charge us if we are leaving ? So brutally honest does any of this matter ?? Nah suns out


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			She's just said that it is a short time frame to agree a trade deal.  And I'm sure she'd be more than happy to not have to worry about much re-alignment and to carry on much the same as we have for the previous 40 years. Nothing to do with no deal as they want to do a deal.

I know Boris has some oven ready deal apparently but using recent experience he tends to say a lot of things that are not quite true in the cold light of day in this area.  And a lot of other commentators have agreed with her based on how long it has taken other countries to agree a deal with the EU.  No ones saying it can't be done.
		
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Will his Oven-ready Deal be good for us?  Well possibly - but maybe not as good for us were we not leaving at all...but we are...

https://next-media-api.ft.com/renditions/15444459163270/1280x720.mp4

And also recently read in the FT (or maybe the Observer) - most economists out of a group of 87 (I think) asked, strongly suspected that Johnson would request an extension to avoid a No Deal exit. (I'll see if I can find a link to that article).


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Will his Oven-ready Deal be good for us?  Well possibly - but maybe not as good for us were we not leaving at all...but we are...

https://next-media-api.ft.com/renditions/15444459163270/1280x720.mp4

And also recently read in the FT (or maybe the Observer) - most economists out of a group of 87 (I think) asked, s*trongly suspected that Johnson would request an extension to avoid a No Deal exit.* (I'll see if I can find a link to that article).
		
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Of course he will, and indeed he should as he knows as well as anyone the hit the economy will take, especially those areas he's just got from labour in the midlands and up north.  People are immune to caring about him going back on his word now as we are living in a world where that is the norm from people in power, he doesn't have to worry about an election for another 5 years but he ain't going to deliberately create any additional economic challenges for his government.  With the big majority and when we Brexit he has no one left to blame now for what goes wrong but additionally that mean he can take all the credit if in 5 years time it's all going swimmingly, so why would he go for a no deal which every credible economic forecast has said could screw him up?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Will his Oven-ready Deal be good for us?  Well possibly - but maybe not as good for us were we not leaving at all...but we are...

https://next-media-api.ft.com/renditions/15444459163270/1280x720.mp4

And also recently read in the FT (or maybe the Observer) - most economists out of a group of 87 (I think) asked, strongly suspected that Johnson would request an extension to avoid a No Deal exit. (I'll see if I can find a link to that article).
		
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The guy in that video (whoever) doesn't seem to understand the difference between a Forecast and Asking a question.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 5, 2020)

A song from frozen springs to mind :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213781241138417664


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## Dando (Jan 5, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			A song from frozen springs to mind :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213781241138417664

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No doubt Gina miller will get on this band wagon for some airtime


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## patricks148 (Jan 6, 2020)

https://www.facebook.com/PeterStefa...539210328709/1036080833441205/?type=3&theater

what a suprise


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## SocketRocket (Jan 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



https://www.facebook.com/PeterStefa...539210328709/1036080833441205/?type=3&theater

what a suprise
		
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Yes it is as it's the Speakers job to select amendments, seemed fair enough to Remainers when Burcow was helping them out.


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2020)

It would be amusing to be a 'fly on the wall' when the PM and the new EU leader and Barnier meet this afternoon. Particularly interesting would be the notion that the EU was adammant and declared itself ready for all outcomes in Nov/Dec 19 and was threatening no extension but now wants to discuss delays. Don't you just love politicians and  bureaucrats add the two together and sit back and observe?


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## spongebob59 (Jan 8, 2020)

Another one for Frozen. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214875214280089600


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## Mudball (Jan 11, 2020)

BoJo must be thanking his lucky stars... Megexit has cleared out Brexit from all the papers. Also the unfortunate Iran shooting going in his favour. Not many would have noticed that the MPs seem to all have agreed to get out soon.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2020)

Mudball said:



			BoJo must be thanking his lucky stars... Megexit has cleared out Brexit from all the papers. Also the unfortunate Iran shooting going in his favour. Not many would have noticed that the MPs seem to all have agreed to get out soon.
		
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80 majority, its overpowering.


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## robinthehood (Jan 17, 2020)

Bad news brexit fans.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51146992


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 17, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Bad news brexit fans.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51146992

Click to expand...

Let’s be honest I suspect the majority don’t want to see EU workers deported


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Bad news brexit fans.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51146992

Click to expand...

You are being extreme. The Uk has never been against legal residency of EU citizens.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Let’s be honest I suspect the majority don’t want to see EU workers deported
		
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The majority might not - but I fear that there are plenty who want - and expect - to see fewer Eastern Europeans on the streets of their towns; in the jobs they think Brits should be filling, and that are holding down pay rates in such as building and other related trades; in the queues for housing; for GP appointments; in A&E.  Immigration - the word.


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## robinthehood (Jan 17, 2020)

Going to be many people disappointed by brexit. 
All those fisherman who voted leave,thinking they'd get back total control of out waters for a start .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Going to be many people disappointed by brexit.
All those fisherman who voted leave,thinking they'd get back total control of out waters for a start .
		
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Ah - but on the fishing side of things we'll be holding the important trump card in the negotiations that is letting children into this country to join a relative.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...eer-refuses-to-drop-fight-to-keep-protections


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## Mudball (Jan 17, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Going to be many people disappointed by brexit.
All those fisherman who voted leave,thinking they'd get back total control of out waters for a start .
		
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We will get to keep our waters... but can we force fishes to swim in them?   what if they are EU fishes and they head back to their part of the sea


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Going to be many people disappointed by brexit.
All those fisherman who voted leave,thinking they'd get back total control of out waters for a start .
		
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All those winging Remainers who have only desperation and a feeling of helplessness that didnt get their way. Oh Dear!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah - but on the fishing side of things we'll be holding the important trump card in the negotiations that is letting children into this country to join a relative.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...eer-refuses-to-drop-fight-to-keep-protections

Click to expand...

I'm trying hard to see the link between fish and child refugees!   No, sorry still cant see it.


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			We will get to keep our waters... but can we* force fishes* to swim in them?   what if they are EU fishes and they head back to their part of the sea
		
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Ah but Animal Rights will expect us to have a transition so we can teach them French and Dutch


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm trying hard to see the link between fish and child refugees!   No, sorry still cant see it.
		
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Though you do understand and are keen to promote how parties about to be in a negotiation should keep negotiating cards available and not just give them away before negotiations start.  Anyway how about we listen to what Lord Dubs says he has been told by a government minister on this...and are not fishing rights one key thing we are going to be negotiating?

_Lord Dubs, who has been fighting for improved protections for child refugees travelling alone since 2016, said it was disgraceful to use child refugees as a “bartering chip” with the EU, describing the move to drop the family union rights from the withdrawal legislation as a “betrayal of Britain’s humanitarian position”. _


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though you do understand and are keen to promote how parties about to be in a negotiation should keep negotiating cards available and not just give them away before negotiations start.  Anyway how about we listen to what Lord Dubs says he has been told by a government minister on this...and are not fishing rights one key thin we are going to be negotiating?

_Lord Dubs, who has been fighting for improved protections for child refugees travelling alone since 2016, said it was disgraceful to use child refugees as a “bartering chip” with the EU, describing the move to drop the family union rights from the withdrawal legislation as a “betrayal of Britain’s humanitarian position”. _

Click to expand...

Why exactly are child refugees traveling alone when their families are living?


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2020)

I keep hearing that we'll have to negotiate our 'fishing rights' (as an example) in order to get 'something' from the EU - why?

I realise when negotiating there is compromise but the idea that we give up stuff to which we have legitimate rights is not the way to play the game. The compromises are in those areas where there are no fundamental rights in favour of either side - hence because both sides have rightful claims you negotiate compromise agreements in those areas.

It's not some silly school playground game of tit-for-tat - or should not be IMO.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			I keep hearing that we'll have to negotiate our 'fishing rights' (as an example) in order to get 'something' from the EU - why?

I realise when negotiating there is compromise but the idea that we give up stuff to which we have legitimate rights is not the way to play the game. The compromises are in those areas where there are no fundamental rights in favour of either side - hence because both sides have rightful claims you negotiate compromise agreements in those areas.

It's not some silly school playground game of tit-for-tat - or should not be IMO.
		
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We are negotiating a change in an existing arrangement - I think you understand that...


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## Mudball (Jan 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			Ah but Animal Rights will expect us to have a transition so we can teach them French and Dutch 

Click to expand...


After 31st, we wont have to follow any of those draconian EU laws and we can set our own animal or worker rights.  We can have our bendy bananas and eat it too!!!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are negotiating a change in an existing arrangement - I think you understand that...
		
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We are not negotiating to keep our fishing grounds, they are ours.    If the EU want to get access to them its up to them to negotiate.


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are negotiating a change in an existing arrangement - I think you understand that...
		
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Of course - but that was not the key point 

I was differentiating between legal rights (defence/borders, mining, extraction, fish, natural and other sovereign assets, exchange rate etc) and shared rights (open market access, people travel & movements, trade and medical licences Etc).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			We are not negotiating to keep our fishing grounds, they are ours.    If the EU want to get access to them its up to them to negotiate.
		
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Nah - you know it doesn't work like that.  We are in an existing arrangement being members of the EU and are negotiating a new agreement and part of that is having to negotiate various fishing rights - I suppose we might be able to choose to exclude fishing rights from the negotiations but I think the EU would have some thoughts on that.

Besides.  The UK in our great humanitarianism is, it seems, going to be using children as bargaining chips.  Makes me proud - not.

But hey - we can choose to be utterly unethical as we have taken back control - oh yes - we can choose to be utter shysters.  It's what we voted for.


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nah - you know it doesn't work like that.  We are in an existing arrangement being members of the EU and are negotiating a new agreement and part of that is having to negotiate various fishing rights - I suppose we might be able to choose to exclude fishing rights from the negotiations but I think the EU would have some thoughts on that.

Besides.  The UK in our great humanitarianism is, it seems, going to be using children as bargaining chips.  Makes me proud - not.

But hey - we can choose to be utterly unethical as we have taken back control - oh yes - we can choose to be utter shysters.  It's what we voted for.
		
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You're still missing the point. If you own a house and I own a house that's it. If we BOTH own a house but one of us wants to pull out of the deal then we HAVE to negotiate on that but we don't *have* to bring either of our houses into the debate.


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are negotiating a change in an existing arrangement - I think you understand that...
		
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what complete and utter rubbish. It’s not an existing deal at all. The U.K. will have left the EU and regained full control of its fishing grounds. It will be negotiating a completely new deal. If the U.K. so chooses it could completely leave out the issue of fishing grounds. It won’t, and the EU will desperately push for the inclusion.

Do a bit of research on how many fishing communities there are in northern Spain and western France.

Existing deal.... I’d like to think it’s semantics on your part, a misspoke thing, but existing deal... complete rubbish.


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## robinthehood (Jan 17, 2020)

Fishing for financial services


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Fishing for financial services
		
Click to expand...

No, no. 
Fish, (oil, gas minerals etc.) within the territorial water belong to the UK, Financial service is an agreed international business arrangement. You can use it but they are not really compatible and once you start to bring in things from different sectors you are into a guessing game of 'valuation'. How do you value a future renewable food source against a notional 'trade-off in currency etc. How do you value a 'defence capability against German car imports?  I could see how we could do Manufactured, Chemicals/medicines, agriculture, tourism/hospitality etc etc as defined groups.

If we proceed down the mix-n-match route we'll be arguing equivalence of 'notional values' across non-related sectors for decades - but unfortunately I fear that is the muddy waters which beckon our politicians and the EU bureaucrats/technocrats who seem to know the price of stuff but the 'value' of now't.


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## robinthehood (Jan 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			No, no. 
Fish, (oil, gas minerals etc.) within the territorial water belong to the UK, Financial service is an agreed international business arrangement. You can use it but they are not really compatible and once you start to bring in things from different sectors you are into a guessing game of 'valuation'. How do you value a future renewable food source against a notional 'trade-off in currency etc. How do you value a 'defence capability against German car imports?  I could see how we could do Manufactured, Chemicals/medicines, agriculture, tourism/hospitality etc etc as defined groups.

If we proceed down the mix-n-match route we'll be arguing equivalence of 'notional values' across non-related sectors for decades - but unfortunately I fear that is the muddy waters which beckon our politicians and the EU bureaucrats/technocrats who seem to know the price of stuff but the 'value' of now't.
		
Click to expand...

I mean the EU have already stated as much, but you best I guess.


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I mean the EU have already stated as much, but you_* (know)*_ best I guess.
		
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I don't - just challenging your opinion with an explanation of my own view and in the scheme of life's things its worth the sum total of beggar all.


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## Dando (Jan 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nah - you know it doesn't work like that.  We are in an existing arrangement being members of the EU and are negotiating a new agreement and part of that is having to negotiate various fishing rights - I suppose we might be able to choose to exclude fishing rights from the negotiations but I think the EU would have some thoughts on that.

Besides.  The UK in our great humanitarianism is, it seems, going to be using children as bargaining chips.  Makes me proud - not.

But hey - we can choose to be utterly unethical as we have taken back control - oh yes - we can choose to be utter shysters.  It's what we voted for.
		
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My god, you talk utter rubbish 

Why should we have to negotiate who fishes in UL waters once we are free from the EU?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 17, 2020)

Dando said:



			My god, you talk utter rubbish.

Why should we have to negotiate who fishes in UL waters once we are free from the EU?
		
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I take it you mean UK waters?
Surely you don’t believe our fishing fleet can be maintained on just UK waters alone and I’d imagine we’ll be negotiating with who wants to fish our waters with those Nations whose waters our fleet wish to fish.


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## robinthehood (Jan 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I take it you mean UK waters?
Surely you don’t believe our fishing fleet can be maintained on just UK waters alone and I’d imagine we’ll be negotiating with who wants to fish our waters with those Nations whose waters our fleet wish to fish.
		
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Sadly I think all those fishing towns that voted hand over first to leave are going to be very disappointed and sacrificed to save other areas.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I take it you mean UK waters?
Surely you don’t believe our fishing fleet can be maintained on just UK waters alone and I’d imagine we’ll be negotiating with who wants to fish our waters with those Nations whose waters our fleet wish to fish.
		
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With the size of the current UK fleet I would imagine that UK waters alone would be enough to maintain them, but failing that there's always international waters that they can go and fish in. As long as they stay more than 12 miles offshore from the nearest land they're fine to fish I believe.


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## Dando (Jan 17, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			With the size of the current UK fleet I would imagine that UK waters alone would be enough to maintain them, but failing that there's always international waters that they can go and fish in. As long as they stay more than 12 miles offshore from the nearest land they're fine to fish I believe.
		
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Or they can ignore the boundaries like our EU counterparts do


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## robinthehood (Jan 17, 2020)

Own up, who's donated to the bongs for brexit fund. 
😂


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 17, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			With the size of the current UK fleet I would imagine that UK waters alone would be enough to maintain them, but failing that there's always international waters that they can go and fish in. As long as they stay more than 12 miles offshore from the nearest land they're fine to fish I believe.
		
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Unfortunately they’re not as not every species is found in our waters, add in the fact our fleet also sells a lot of what’s caught to the EU Market, I’d imagine it would be beneficial to all sides if a satisfactory deal is negotiated.
Not sure the extra mileage or competition in international waters would be either be cost effective or viable for current UK trawlers.
What hopefully what will happen is that any negotiations puts our fleets interests first and has them in a strong position.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 18, 2020)

Chancellor warns of 'adjusting to the new reality'.
I wonder what he means by that, why would he warn us.
Sounds like prepare to be much poorer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			what complete and utter rubbish. It’s not an existing deal at all. The U.K. will have left the EU and regained full control of its fishing grounds. It will be negotiating a completely new deal. If the U.K. so chooses it could completely leave out the issue of fishing grounds. It won’t, and the EU will desperately push for the inclusion.

Do a bit of research on how many fishing communities there are in northern Spain and western France.

Existing deal.... I’d like to think it’s semantics on your part, a misspoke thing, but existing deal... complete rubbish.
		
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I did add that UK might choose to exclude fishing rights in uk waters from any negotiations but that the EU might take a view on that.  And yes of course my thinking was squinty and so wrong in this - when we leave the EU we leave all current agreements unless anything has been agreed in such respect in the withdrawal agreement...my thinking was still in the WA negotiations.


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## Beezerk (Jan 18, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Own up, who's donated to the bongs for brexit fund.
😂
		
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I think they've been smoking pot to have come up with the idea in the first place 🤯


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## Slime (Jan 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Chancellor warns of 'adjusting to the new reality'.
I wonder what he means by that, why would he warn us.
Sounds like prepare to be much poorer.
		
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You really are very depressing.
Lighten up, you might find that life is actually bearable!


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## larmen (Jan 18, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Own up, who's donated to the bongs for brexit fund. 
😂
		
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As we are saving £350,000,000 a week from next month onwards a patriotic prime minister would have just spend the cash on it anyway. Put it on a credit card and get some Avios points on top if necessary.

Saying that, at these rates of course we should just scarp the broken tower and buy a new one. We can clearly afford it. Better still, buy a new one every month and by next New Years we have Big Bens running all the way from Westminster to Tower Bridge.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2020)

Im taking orders:
https://leaveeushop.com/?fbclid=IwAR2Gt8W5Le4b7ylmzt_XtbFyTUxANiTYuv9YVQ_9L7XLkldXFKTwq8UQ1wM


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## Mudball (Jan 18, 2020)

Well looks like Sajid has got the industry with their tail up by saying that we won’t follow EU standards. I thought it was a big trading bloc and we need to follow theirs to ensure frictionless trade. 

Quiet a senseless approach in my view but I don’t have a 80 seat majority. 

Equally I don’t know how much of this is posturing - soon everyone in UK and EU will cry foul and then BoJo will rise in and relent and show up as a hero by saving world trade. 

BTW, I won’t mind if we could buy petrol in gallons at US prices


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## harpo_72 (Jan 18, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Well looks like Sajid has got the industry with their tail up by saying that we won’t follow EU standards. I thought it was a big trading bloc and we need to follow theirs to ensure frictionless trade.

Quiet a senseless approach in my view but I don’t have a 80 seat majority.

Equally I don’t know how much of this is posturing - soon everyone in UK and EU will cry foul and then BoJo will rise in and relent and show up as a hero by saving world trade.

BTW, I won’t mind if we could buy petrol in gallons at US prices
		
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They are showing a lack of regard ... meaning they are going to be hard to negotiate against.
But sadly, it’s a little ignorant to think that this will fool the EU. Big business will have to at least meet the EU stds if they wish to operate in the EU markets.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2020)

We dont need to have compulsary alignment with EU standards, that would mean becoming a vassal state.  We have to comply to many standards around the world already, its nothing new. We may well want to set our own standards that other countries would have to abide by to trade with us.  Leaving the EU means not being tied to the single market or customs union so this should be no surprise at all.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			We dont need to have compulsary alignment with EU standards, that would mean becoming a vassal state.  We have to comply to many standards around the world already, its nothing new. We may well want to set our own standards that other countries would have to abide by to trade with us.  Leaving the EU means not being tied to the single market or customs union so this should be no surprise at all.
		
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Ah so you want complexity.. that costs too much money. The standards we have must be equal or better or we will be chasing certification to sell in these markets.. For example India take 6months to certify a wheel .. so I only put a select few through and they got delayed release of the vehicle. I would be pretty cheesed off if I had this issue in several markets, especially if they have some random requirements.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Ah so you want complexity.. that costs too much money. The standards we have must be equal or better or we will be chasing certification to sell in these markets.. For example India take 6months to certify a wheel .. so I only put a select few through and they got delayed release of the vehicle. I would be pretty cheesed off if I had this issue in several markets, especially if they have some random requirements.
		
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My company did business all around the Globe. We had to comply with standards in many countries but its not that difficult, you create a suitable spec that meets the highest requirements but you control that yourself. Why would we want the EU to have legal power over products that we dont even sell to them.  How on earth do you think China, the USA etc would react to the EU insisting they must have the ECJ presiding over their product standards?


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## Mudball (Jan 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			We dont need to have compulsary alignment with EU standards, *that would mean becoming a vassal state.*  We have to comply to many standards around the world already, its nothing new. We may well want to set our own standards that other countries would have to abide by to trade with us.  Leaving the EU means not being tied to the single market or customs union so this should be no surprise at all.
		
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Sorry SR.. i stopped reading when I got to that narrative.. sound bites like this are what makes the whole debate meaningless for more moderate folks and those who want to make this work. We want to trade with the world and want to make it as frictionless as possible. It’s worth also realising that we are no longer a colonial power - we are 5th, 6th or 7th economy in the world. It is far easier to be part of one of those in front who have an established standard rather than define a brand new one. US, China, Germany in front of us have w far bigger internal market and could define own standards.  China follows the standards of the market that it exports to. You have to follow US or EU standards if you want to export to them. So there is not much space there. 
Why don’t we switch our electricity to something like 300v which no one else has


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## harpo_72 (Jan 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My company did business all around the Globe. We had to comply with standards in many countries but its not that difficult, you create a suitable spec that meets the highest requirements but you control that yourself. Why would we want the EU to have legal power over products that we dont even sell to them.  How on earth do you think China, the USA etc would react to the EU insisting they must have the ECJ presiding over their product standards?
		
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We do that already, it’s called being lean.. the hardest test requirement becomes your bench mark. 
So we are either agreeing that the UK will set higher standards and requirements than the EU or they should match every standard with the hardest being the benchmark. 
The point being you still have to go through a certification process .. unless you have the required certs that are accepted in other markets. Having one of your own will require recognition and acceptance.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Sorry SR.. i stopped reading when I got to that narrative.. sound bites like this are what makes the whole debate meaningless for more moderate folks and those who want to make this work. We want to trade with the world and want to make it as frictionless as possible. It’s worth also realising that we are no longer a colonial power - we are 5th, 6th or 7th economy in the world. It is far easier to be part of one of those in front who have an established standard rather than define a brand new one. US, China, Germany in front of us have w far bigger internal market and could define own standards.  China follows the standards of the market that it exports to. You have to follow US or EU standards if you want to export to them. So there is not much space there.
Why don’t we switch our electricity to something like 300v which no one else has
		
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Who is suggesting we dont have to follow the standards of the country we export to, I certainly didn't.   We can do that without being tied into an EU legal framework that forces us. We export to countries like the USA and our products have to conform to their standards but we are not legally forced to do that with the US courts insisting we incorporate their standards.  As our government have stated, we will not be rule takers that are not under our control, it will be our decision on how high our standards are set and in cases this may be better than those in the EU.  I repeat my point that the UK being tied to EU standards by  EU laws that are governed by the ECJ takes away our state of of independance.  If that offends you then thats unfortunate but your issue not mine.  We managed quite well with British Standards.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 19, 2020)

[ Not part of your conversation. Is the UK almost Europe like Japan is almost Asia?  You know, floating about the periphery? Or do you consider yourselves European?]


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## User62651 (Jan 19, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			[ Not part of your conversation. Is the UK almost Europe like Japan is almost Asia?  *You know, floating about the periphery*? Or do you consider yourselves European?]
		
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There is a bit of that, part of being an island maybe. UK peoples likely define themselves firstly as English/Scottish etc then British. Doesn't really go beyond that, never heard anyone call themselves European just like I doubt Chinese or Pakistanis or Thais call themselves Asian. 

What might be the exception and pertinent to this place is every 2 years in Ryder Cup week when 'European' suddenly becomes an identity 'thing' for just a few days until we skelp you lot!

Europe is too diverse to be classed as one thing perhaps.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately they’re not as not every species is found in our waters, add in the fact our fleet also sells a lot of what’s caught to the EU Market, I’d imagine it would be beneficial to all sides if a satisfactory deal is negotiated.
Not sure the extra mileage or competition in international waters would be either be cost effective or viable for current UK trawlers.
What hopefully what will happen is that any negotiations puts our fleets interests first and has them in a strong position.
		
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I agree with you with regards to selling into the EU market but your other points neuter your argument a bit (in my opinion). If the species currently being caught aren't found in our waters then these vessels are already travelling further afield, into international waters to catch those species which means they must be cost effective and viable. That isn't going to change after Brexit, other than they will have to fish more than 12 miles offshore from continental Europe outside of the respective countries national waters.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 19, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I agree with you with regards to selling into the EU market but your other points neuter your argument a bit (in my opinion). If the species currently being caught aren't found in our waters then these vessels are already travelling further afield, into international waters to catch those species which means they must be cost effective and viable. That isn't going to change after Brexit, other than they will have to fish more than 12 miles offshore from continental Europe outside of the respective countries national waters.
		
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What if currently our fleet don’t go after those fish and we buy it after it is landed by boats from other nations at our ports?


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			What if currently our fleet don’t go after those fish and we buy it after it is landed by boats from other nations at our ports?
		
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Then it makes it more likely that the EU will want to make a deal unless they don't want their fishermen to be able to sell us their fish any more.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 19, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Then it makes it more likely that the EU will want to make a deal unless they don't want their fishermen to be able to sell us their fish any more.
		
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Which was my original point to the post I answered, grown ups will talk and deals will be done.


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## Mudball (Jan 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			What if currently our fleet don’t go after those fish and we buy it after it is landed by boats from other nations at our ports?
		
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what if ‘our’ fleet is actually owned by ‘them’?? Wasn’t there a documentary that showed more than half of Brit flagged vessels were owned by Europeans..  I am assuming we can nationalise these easily


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 19, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			There is a bit of that, part of being an island maybe. UK peoples likely define themselves firstly as English/Scottish etc then British. Doesn't really go beyond that, never heard anyone call themselves European just like I doubt Chinese or Pakistanis or Thais call themselves Asian.

What might be the exception and pertinent to this place is every 2 years in Ryder Cup week when 'European' suddenly becomes an identity 'thing' for just a few days until we skelp you lot!

Europe is too diverse to be classed as one thing perhaps.
		
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Thanks for the insight.

Our nation spans the breadth of a continent as you know.  The two coasts, which are far apart, are somewhat compatible.
The interior is like another world.  I couldn't live there. If I could afford a nice flat in London, I'd feel far more at home there than, say, somewhere in Missouri.


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## Hobbit (Jan 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Well looks like Sajid has got the industry with their tail up by saying that we won’t follow EU standards. I thought it was a big trading bloc and we need to follow theirs to ensure frictionless trade.

Quiet a senseless approach in my view but I don’t have a 80 seat majority.

Equally I don’t know how much of this is posturing - soon everyone in UK and EU will cry foul and then BoJo will rise in and relent and show up as a hero by saving world trade.

BTW, I won’t mind if we could buy petrol in gallons at US prices
		
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The national standard, post-Brexit, won't necessarily be the standard to which a product is made. The UK, and Europe, makes products to many international standards. For example, the company I used to work for has a medical division, and its biggest customer was the USA. Medical equipment was made to the FDA standards, not CE standards. The company also has an industrial division making breathing apparatus and gas detection systems. Again, when selling outside the EU it was the 'local' standards that had to be met.

The issue that so many are getting so het up about is a bit of a non-story. If a UK company wants to sell into the UK it will need to manufacture to the new UK standards, but beyond that its up to the company whose standards they meet.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			what if ‘our’ fleet is actually owned by ‘them’?? Wasn’t there a documentary that showed more than half of Brit flagged vessels were owned by Europeans..  I am assuming we can nationalise these easily
		
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I think youre getting confused with the likes of oil tankers, container ships and passenger liners. We don't fish with them.


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## robinthehood (Jan 19, 2020)

I'm surprised how ignorant some are on here about the U.K. s fishing quotas and the demise of the fishing industry.
For your average under 10m small scale fisherman brexit won't help them.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I'm surprised how ignorant some are on here about the U.K. s fishing quotas and the demise of the fishing industry.
For your average under 10m small scale fisherman brexit won't help them.
		
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And your qualifications in deep sea fishing are?


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## robinthehood (Jan 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And your qualifications in deep sea fishing are?
		
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I'm aquaman


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I'm aquaman
		
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Yes I had a feeling you were a bit sharky.
Anyhow, our fishing industry has been devistated by the EUs quota system and countries like Spain and France who have destroyed fish stocks in the Mediterranean are now doing it in our waters, the EU quota system has resulted in a UK fishing industry that has been brought to its knees and their towns and communities left to rot just like the fish they are forced to throw back dead into the sea.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/6092/the_eu_s_betrayal_of_britain_s_fishing_industry


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes I had a feeling you were a bit sharky.
Anyhow, our fishing industry has been devistated by the EUs quota system and countries like Spain and France who have destroyed fish stocks in the Mediterranean are now doing it in our waters, the EU quota system has resulted in a UK fishing industry that has been brought to its knees and their towns and communities left to rot just like the fish they are forced to throw back dead into the sea.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/6092/the_eu_s_betrayal_of_britain_s_fishing_industry

Click to expand...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10096649

I believe there is lots of research that counters your belief and that the decline in the fishing industry started before CFP was introduced and it was poor management before that - and in fact the CFP has helped the stock be more sustainable

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....shermen-fishing-industry-quotas-uk-government


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## Hobbit (Jan 19, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10096649

I believe there is lots of research that counters your belief and that the decline in the fishing industry started before CFP was introduced and it was poor management before that - and in fact the CFP has helped the stock be more sustainable

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....shermen-fishing-industry-quotas-uk-government

Click to expand...

A counter argument...

https://www.debatingeurope.eu/focus...nst-the-common-fisheries-policy/#.XiTcMm5Fw2w

There's also an interesting piece kicking about that talks about EU fishing fleets fishing further afield on the back of dubious agreements with non-EU countries. Also, its worth a look at how much progress the EU had made in banning large, commercial drift net fishing. At a cost of around €5billion a year the EU has achieved little in terms of protecting fishing communities, only helping big commercial fleets.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10096649

I believe there is lots of research that counters your belief and that the decline in the fishing industry started before CFP was introduced and it was poor management before that - and in fact the CFP has helped the stock be more sustainable

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....shermen-fishing-industry-quotas-uk-government

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The UK is allowed 40% of the fishing quota in its territorial waters.  I don't think that's OK.
Heres a video that discusses these issues.


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## Mudball (Jan 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The UK is allowed 40% of the fishing quota in its territorial waters.  I don't think that's OK.
Heres a video that discusses these issues.






Click to expand...


Cant comment on the veracity of this source... but makes interesting reading, 

_Meanwhile, in England nearly 80% of fishing quota is held by foreign owners or domestic Rich List families, and more than half of Northern Ireland’s quota is hoarded onto a single trawler. _
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/


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## robinthehood (Jan 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Cant comment on the veracity of this source... but makes interesting reading, 

_Meanwhile, in England nearly 80% of fishing quota is held by foreign owners or domestic Rich List families, and more than half of Northern Ireland’s quota is hoarded onto a single trawler. _
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/

Click to expand...

Its easier to blame the EU for the UK fishing industries woes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 20, 2020)

Houses of Parliament split in two with House of Lords relocated to York?  And so we would have two permanent Houses - both permanently maintained, serviced, manned and provisioned with Lords, Ladies and staff forming a 'travelling circus' (Daily Telegraph description of those alternating between Strasbourg and Brussels) commuting from London, and wherever, to York on a daily or weekly basis.  And meanwhile the House of Lords in Westminster must continue to be maintained.

Whether a good idea or not, it most certainly is full of irony given the noisy fuss made by some over the cost of elements of the EU governance alternating between Strasbourg and Brussels.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Its easier to blame the EU for the UK fishing industries woes.
		
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In your case its easier to blame anything British. Maybe its time for you to scoot off old trout!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Houses of Parliament split in two with House of Lords relocated to York?  And so we would have two permanent Houses - both permanently maintained, serviced, manned and provisioned with Lords, Ladies and staff forming a 'travelling circus' (Daily Telegraph description of those alternating between Strasbourg and Brussels) commuting from London, and wherever, to York on a daily or weekly basis.  And meanwhile the House of Lords in Westminster must continue to be maintained.

Whether a good idea or not, it most certainly is full of irony given the noisy fuss made by some over the cost of elements of the EU governance alternating between Strasbourg and Brussels.
		
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A move to oblivion would be preferable.


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## drdel (Jan 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Houses of Parliament split in two with House of Lords relocated to York?  And so we would have two permanent Houses - both permanently maintained, serviced, manned and provisioned with Lords, Ladies and staff forming a 'travelling circus' (Daily Telegraph description of those alternating between Strasbourg and Brussels) commuting from London, and wherever, to York on a daily or weekly basis.  And meanwhile the House of Lords in Westminster must continue to be maintained.

Whether a good idea or not, it most certainly is full of irony given the noisy fuss made by some over the cost of elements of the EU governance alternating between Strasbourg and Brussels.
		
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I think there is overdue work needed on both of the old buildings and its expensive to operate and running out of space.

Help to bring jobs to York area. Those working in London also commute for some of the longest and expensive journey times so there _might _be a net reduction.


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## robinthehood (Jan 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			In your case its easier to blame anything British. Maybe its time for you to scoot off old trout!
		
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I havnt blamed anything British, as ever you fail to see the big picture.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I havnt blamed anything British, as ever you fail to see the big picture.
		
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I saw Ben Hur.


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I saw Ben Hur.
		
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Don't forget Spartacus!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 20, 2020)

As someone who does a far bit of travelling for work just entered an EU country as a fellow EU citizen for the last time.  I know some see this all as an exciting opportunity, I just felt a little sad to be honest.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/746389121774542852
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			As someone who does a far bit of travelling for work just entered an EU country as a fellow EU citizen for the last time.  I know some see this all as an exciting opportunity, I just felt a little sad to be honest.
		
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Did you hug the guys in passport control? Sorry, just being a little flippant. How do you feel when you land in the US(?) or Thailand(?)? I agree its disappointing but I'm not going to beat my chest or tear my clothes over it. Life goes on.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Did you hug the guys in passport control? Sorry, just being a little flippant. How do you feel when you land in the US(?) or Thailand(?)? I agree its disappointing but I'm not going to beat my chest or tear my clothes over it. Life goes on.
		
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Yes, that's right. After all the countries are still there and we will still be able to visit them, its just a change in trading arrangements and I'm sure most of us will survive it.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Don't forget Spartacus!
		
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 Im Spartacus or maybe Asparagus. I get a bit confused with all this foreign stuff 🙃


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## Leftie (Jan 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			.......... or maybe Asparagus. I get a bit confused with all this foreign stuff 🙃
		
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For the last 3 years, I've grown a fairly rare variety of cucumber from seed from a specialist supplier.  You have to join "the club" (1p) as otherwise the seed cannot be sold due to EU regs.  I can guarantee that at least 90% of you have never tasted cucumber like this.  Yes - it has a taste, it's so juicy it makes your mouth salivate, *and it's straight*

Stuff the foreign muck.  Buy and grow British


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## Mudball (Jan 21, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			As someone who does a far bit of travelling for work just entered an EU country as a fellow EU citizen for the last time.  I know some see this all as an exciting opportunity, I just felt a little sad to be honest.
		
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I can empathise.. 

I am there next week, so will barge in, hug them and say ‘it’s us again’


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 21, 2020)

I see BJ's advisors have picked up on my idea of moving Parliament to t' north.
I still think Preston is a better option than York. 
York is very difficult for the NI/Welsh folk to access


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see BJ's advisors have picked up on my idea of moving Parliament to t' north.
I still think Preston is a better option than York.
York is very difficult for the NI/Welsh folk to access
		
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York has a major train station, it is a hub and has great connections for all of the main lines. As MP's or Lords would be coming from all over then having good train links makes a great deal of sense. Preston is not as well connected and that matters. If you were going to choose somewhere on the West side then somewhere like Crewe would be the equivalent. I suspect York is also better set up in terms of hotels, accomodation, office space etc so the extra required would be less than somewhere like Preston where realistically you are starting from scratch.

Every option is going to be awkward for someone, that is inevitable when you are picking one spot in a country.

I would be amazed if they genuinely set up shop somewhere north. Govt, civil servants etc are so entrenched in London that to move so many people north will cost a fortune in terms of relocation, travel etc. I like the idea of moving departments over time. That is manageable.


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## Mudball (Jan 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			York has a major train station, it is a hub and has great connections for all of the main lines. As MP's or Lords would be coming from all over then having good train links makes a great deal of sense. Preston is not as well connected and that matters. If you were going to choose somewhere on the West side then somewhere like Crewe would be the equivalent. I suspect York is also better set up in terms of hotels, accomodation, office space etc so the extra required would be less than somewhere like Preston where realistically you are starting from scratch.

Every option is going to be awkward for someone, that is inevitable when you are picking one spot in a country.

*I would be amazed if they genuinely set up shop somewhere north. Govt, civil servants etc are so entrenched in London that to move so many people north will cost a fortune in terms of relocation, travel etc. I like the idea of moving departments over time. That is manageable*.
		
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I like the idea.   Given that politics is a circus these day, this will line up well with an idea of a travelling circus.   Just like they have 'European Capital of Culture', we should  have a similar 'UK Capital of Capitals' wherein cities should bid to be the Capital of UK.  It can go from York, to Leeds, to Aberdeen, to Newport to Bristol, to Grimsby and on and on..    Will help the local economy and train connectivity and boost the country.   

I know we all cried foul over the EU capital moving every few months ... but remember, now it is our parliament and we make the rules..        All raise a toast to Ye Old Britannica


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## USER1999 (Jan 21, 2020)

It's a pity HS2 doesn't go to York.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 21, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			It's a pity HS2 doesn't go to York.
		
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Nor is it ever likely to.

Do you see them binning the whole job off? It is beginning to look that way.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 21, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I like the idea.   Given that politics is a circus these day, this will line up well with an idea of a travelling circus.   Just like they have 'European Capital of Culture', we should  have a similar 'UK Capital of Capitals' wherein cities should bid to be the Capital of UK.  It can go from York, to Leeds, to Aberdeen, to Newport to Bristol, to Grimsby and on and on..    Will help the local economy and train connectivity and boost the country.  

I know we all cried foul over the EU capital moving every few months ... but remember, now it is our parliament and we make the rules..        All raise a toast to Ye Old Britannica
		
Click to expand...

A quick Google suggests the move between Brussels and Strasbourg costs around €114m per year, call it a straight £100m. I'm happy for parliament to move to the midlands or to the north of England on a permanent basis but to move on a regular basis would be too much of a waste of money for me. That money could go to much better use.

I like your concept, move the money around and boost each city, but I just see too much waste.


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## Kellfire (Jan 21, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1219267050574618626
Who indeed? 🤣


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 21, 2020)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1219267050574618626
Who indeed? 🤣
		
Click to expand...

Dong
No, not Big Quiet Ben but a penny dropping.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Dong
No, not Big Quiet Ben but a penny dropping.

Click to expand...

What - no representation?  Well I guess that that is what _'I just want Brexit' _means.  Leave won - they just have to get over it...


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## PieMan (Jan 21, 2020)

Ah the EP Pech Committee. So many happy memories of just how useless they are!! 😉😂😂


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## Foxholer (Jan 21, 2020)

PieMan said:



			Ah the EP Pech Committee. So many happy memories of just how useless they are!! 😉😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Well, they did commission this research! http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/601981/IPOL_STU(2017)601981_EN.pdf  which anyone considering adding to the debate - so that excludes Doon's snipes (which are just Red Herrings!) - would be advised to read, at least Section 1.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 22, 2020)

Ooops - Steven Mnuchin tells UK some truths about deals - and tariffs...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nuchin-brexit-trade-deal-macron-a9294661.html

And what did Johnson pledge on US Tech Giants prior to the election

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50656106

tricky circle to square...

But who knows - that's only Steve Mnuchin speaking and he's not doing the trade deal...he's only the US Secretary to the Treasury - a bit like the Chancellor of the Exchequer I guess...oooh  

Besides, if exports of Jags, Land Rovers and Discoveries to the US were subject to high tariffs - we'd do the same for imports of US cars to the UK - a quid pro quo...not sure though that the impact on US car manufacturers would be quite the same as that on Midlands car workers.


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## IanM (Jan 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1219267050574618626
Who indeed? 🤣
		
Click to expand...

Clearly she doesn't know how this sector operates.


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## Hobbit (Jan 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ooops - Steven Mnuchin tells UK some truths about deals - and tariffs...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nuchin-brexit-trade-deal-macron-a9294661.html

And what did Johnson pledge on US Tech Giants prior to the election

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50656106

tricky circle to square...

But who knows - that's only Steve Mnuchin speaking and he's not doing the trade deal...he's only the US Secretary to the Treasury - a bit like the Chancellor of the Exchequer I guess...oooh  

Besides, if exports of Jags, Land Rovers and Discoveries to the US were subject to high tariffs - we'd do the same for imports of US cars to the UK - a quid pro quo...not sure though that the impact on US car manufacturers would be quite the same as that on Midlands car workers.
		
Click to expand...

Not saying you're right or wrong but don't you think it a little ironic that you're posting up a statement from an appointee made by Trump, who you so have every faith in, and calling it the "truth?" Doesn't it make you question your motive?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Not saying you're right or wrong but don't you think it a little ironic that you're posting up a statement from an appointee made by Trump, who you so have every faith in, and calling it the "truth?" Doesn't it make you question your motive?
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - though Mnuchin is a 'true Trumper' - and of course - as I also mentioned - as he is not Trump maybe his words don't actually count for anything.   He's only Secretary to the Treasury after all - with defined responsibilities being...

_The Secretary of the Treasury is the principal economic advisor to the President and plays a critical role in policy-making by bringing an economic and government financial policy perspective to issues facing the government. The Secretary is responsible for formulating and recommending domestic and international financial, economic, and tax policy, participating in the formulation of broad fiscal policies that have general significance for the economy, and managing the public debt. _


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## Hobbit (Jan 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - though Mnuchin is a 'true Trumper' - and of course - as I also mentioned - as he is not Trump maybe his words don't actually count for anything.   He's only Secretary to the Treasury after all - with defined responsibilities being...

_The Secretary of the Treasury is the principal economic advisor to the President and plays a critical role in policy-making by bringing an economic and government financial policy perspective to issues facing the government. The Secretary is responsible for formulating and recommending domestic and international financial, economic, and tax policy, participating in the formulation of broad fiscal policies that have general significance for the economy, and managing the public debt. _

Click to expand...


And.... 

I know its difficult to step away from reading between the lines in whatever we ourselves post, after all we know exactly how we mean our posts to be understood, but just ponder. Step outside your fundamental beliefs on this just think on this. You've passionately attacked Trump and his lackeys for the lies, deceit, spin and bullying on countless occasions yet in this instance you use Munchin's position as Secretary of the Treasury to support your argument on the trade deal the US will offer the UK.

I agree with the italicised part of your post, no doubt its a quote anyway, but I find it a bit odd that you put any faith/belief/credit in what a Trump lackey says when you've decried them to the heavens in the past.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, as there's lots of water to pass under the bridge before the actual terms of any deal are formalised but, respectfully, don't you think it makes you look a little foolish to be putting some store in someone who is in a 'camp' you abhor?

BTW, I don't expect a great trade deal with the US but I doubt Munchin's words, long before the real talks begin, actually mean a great deal.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			.........
I'm not saying you're right or wrong, as there's lots of water to pass under the bridge before the actual terms of any deal are formalised but, respectfully, *don't you think it makes you look a little foolish* to be putting some store in someone who is in a 'camp' you abhor?

BTW, I don't expect a great trade deal with the US but I doubt Munchin's words, long before the real talks begin, actually mean a great deal.
		
Click to expand...

If he's only looking a little foolish then he's gone up in a few peoples' estimation on here.


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## Old Skier (Jan 23, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If he's only looking a little foolish then he's gone up in a few peoples' estimation on here. 

Click to expand...

He has a very selective view on when and who he wishes to believe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			He has a very selective view on when and who he wishes to believe.
		
Click to expand...

OK then - we don't believe what Mnuchin says - I am relieved. 

BTW - was I saying that I believed Mnuchin?  I did suggest that what anyone in Trump's administration says could probably be taken with a pinch of salt as Trump didn't say it...what I said

_But who knows - that's only Steve Mnuchin speaking and he's not doing the trade deal...he's only the US Secretary to the Treasury _


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## Old Skier (Jan 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK then - we don't believe what Mnuchin says - I am relieved.

BTW - was I saying that I believed Mnuchin?  I did suggest that what anyone in Trump's administration says could probably be taken with a pinch of salt as Trump didn't say it...what I said

_But who knows - that's only Steve Mnuchin speaking and he's not doing the trade deal...he's only the US Secretary to the Treasury _

Click to expand...

Back to the old - it's not what I think, it's just what I read defence. Nice to know your views on the Trump administration has done an about face.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Back to the old - it's not what I think, it's just what I read defence. Nice to know your views on the Trump administration has done an about face.
		
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They haven't turned one iota.  I just think that it is worth listening to the US Treasury Secretary to get a feeling for what Trump thinks on Trade and trade deals, tariffs etc..  Mnuchin would not say what he did were it not the Trump thinking.  After all this sort of statement is in complete alignment with an America First policy...and I suspect the point being made was no more than that we should not expect favours from Trump if we do anything that is in any way damaging to US business.


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## Mudball (Jan 23, 2020)

So we were supposed to get a 'tremendous trade deal' with the Yanks acc to Lord Trump a few days ago.  Now when we want to tax the tech companies, he has threaten counter-tariffs, so we back off from implementing our tax plans

...  So are we now becoming a vassal state to America?  Will another country now dictate our tax laws?  Surely never happened before ...


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## robinthehood (Jan 24, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So we were supposed to get a 'tremendous trade deal' with the Yanks acc to Lord Trump a few days ago.  Now when we want to tax the tech companies, he has threaten counter-tariffs, so we back off from implementing our tax plans

...  So are we now becoming a vassal state to America?  Will another country now dictate our tax laws?  Surely never happened before ...
		
Click to expand...

Don't worry, we have 10 months to sort the easiest deal In history.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 24, 2020)

This white noise is starting to sound like an annoying Mozzie


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## SocketRocket (Jan 24, 2020)

Boris bounce suggests increased growth in the economy, Carney optimistic and interest rates will probably remain unchanged.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Boris bounce suggests increased growth in the economy, Carney optimistic and interest rates will probably remain unchanged.
		
Click to expand...

the sooner the world gives up on any notion of any interest rate cuts the better. The best thing that could happen to the global economy would be a coordinated half point hike in rates from teh EU, Japan, UK and US - with others following suit. We are still stuck in zombieland QE nightmare-land from the financial crash and the banking system is non functional!


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			the sooner the world gives up on any notion of any interest rate cuts the better. The best thing that could happen to the global economy would be a coordinated half point hike in rates from teh EU, Japan, UK and US - with others following suit. We are still stuck in zombieland QE nightmare-land from the financial crash and *the banking system is non functional*!
		
Click to expand...

In what way?


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## PNWokingham (Jan 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			In what way?
		
Click to expand...

because of zero interest rates


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## robinthehood (Jan 26, 2020)

Brexit fans, get yourselves down to the royal mint and strike your own 50p coin.
Book here 
https://www.royalmint.com/register-interest/register-your-interest-brexit/


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## Foxholer (Jan 26, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			because of zero interest rates
		
Click to expand...

How does that make 'the banking *system*' non functional? BTW. I'm interpreting 'system' as the entire scope of 'banking', not just one portion (Retail Banking) of it.


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## Mudball (Jan 26, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1221413342629322753


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## PNWokingham (Jan 26, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			How does that make 'the banking *system*' non functional? BTW. I'm interpreting 'system' as the entire scope of 'banking', not just one portion (Retail Banking) of it.
		
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look at the share prices of banks - UK ones are bad but have a loook at Deutsche Bank to see how negative rates are helping them. Banks margins are under serious pressure and they have struggled for several years


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 27, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Brexit fans, get yourselves down to the royal mint and strike your own 50p coin.
Book here
https://www.royalmint.com/register-interest/register-your-interest-brexit/

Click to expand...

Did they melt down and re-cast the failed ones.


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			look at the share prices of banks - UK ones are bad but have a loook at Deutsche Bank to see how negative rates are helping them. Banks margins are under serious pressure and they have struggled for several years
		
Click to expand...

Once again...That doesn't make 'the Banking system non-functional'!!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Once again...That doesn't make 'the Banking system non-functional'!!
		
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A cash machine swallowed my debit card once and the little man that sits inside the machine handing out the money did not return it.  If that isn't a non-functional banking system I don't know what is!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 27, 2020)

_“That is why, as we leave the EU, I want to send a message that the UK is open to the most talented minds in the world and stands ready to support them to turn their ideas into reality.” _

So says our PM.  But I am a little confused as to who this message is aimed at.  Is it meant to reassure Remoaners that the government is not going to clamp down on skilled immigrants and is not going close the UK to such immigration?  Am I suppose to cheer?  Or is it supposed to make Leavers feel good about us leaving?  Or both?

Except what's new?  The annual cap of 2000 that was previously in place is now removed - and that is ostensibly great - but in any case it was UK's decision toe impose the cap...not the EU's.

Anyway - I guess this does mean that we'll be able to accept as many highly skilled scientists etc who want to comer here - and will be coming every year after Friday. But I'm not so sure if the cap was never being reached in any case.  But maybe - and it sounds good...and a real positive from leaving the EU - except it isn't.

I suppose we'll hear quite a lot of stuff like this over the coming months - telling us of stuff we will be doing now that we are out of the EU - much of which we'd have been able to do in any case but we chose not to. Or like this - we remove a restriction that the UK impose unilaterally.  Pity we never really had control of our borders...

Looking forward to Saturday.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 27, 2020)

Just bought some Royal Worcester china to discover it is now made in India.
Is it not about time we took back control and made this stuff in the UK.


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## drdel (Jan 27, 2020)

Leo Varadkar... “The UK is only one country. And we have a population and a market of 450 million people. The UK, it’s about 60 (million). So if these were two teams up against each other playing football, who do you think has the stronger team?”

I've read some silly stuff but this must be one of his more stupid.


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## User62651 (Jan 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Leo Varadkar... “The UK is only one country. And we have a population and a market of 450 million people. The UK, it’s about 60 (million). So if these were two teams up against each other playing football, who do you think has the stronger team?”

I've read some silly stuff but this must be one of his more stupid.
		
Click to expand...

Why's it stupid? politicians use metaphors all the time to make a point understandable. Johnson all the time - oven baked deals etc.
He he did end it with 'as long as we stay united'. His job is to protect Ireland's position, they're the EU country most impacted by Brexit, of course Brexiteers wont like anything that paints brexit in a bad light but it is most likely true, precedent has been set already shown by Johnson's welch BRINO and feeble deal (little different to Mays deal) that they (EU) are in stronger position for any trade deal and UK will not get all it wants.
#truthhurts


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## drdel (Jan 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Why's it stupid? politicians use metaphors all the time to make a point understandable. Johnson all the time - oven baked deals etc.
He he did end it with 'as long as we stay united'. His job is to protect Ireland's position, they're the EU country most impacted by Brexit, of course Brexiteers wont like anything that paints brexit in a bad light but it is most likely true, precedent has been set already shown by Johnson's welch BRINO and feeble deal (little different to Mays deal) that they (EU) are in stronger position for any trade deal and UK will not get all it wants.
#truthhurts
		
Click to expand...

Varadkar's analogy is daft because the future discussions are about 'trade and services' most other stuff is within the WA. The negotiating 'power' is based on economic leverage e.g. UK is within the G7 whereas most of the 27 members are not. France, Germany and Italy are in the G7 but their economies are seriously strained.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did they melt down and re-cast the failed ones.

Click to expand...

Only the ones with spikey flowers.


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## robinthehood (Jan 27, 2020)

https://newsthump.com/2020/01/24/nh...efore-the-extra-350-million-per-week-arrives/


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## Hobbit (Jan 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_“That is why, as we leave the EU, I want to send a message that the UK is open to the most talented minds in the world and stands ready to support them to turn their ideas into reality.” _

So says our PM.  But I am a little confused as to who this message is aimed at.  Is it meant to reassure Remoaners that the government is not going to clamp down on skilled immigrants and is not going close the UK to such immigration?  Am I suppose to cheer?  Or is it supposed to make Leavers feel good about us leaving?  Or both?

Except what's new?  The annual cap of 2000 that was previously in place is now removed - and that is ostensibly great - but in any case it was UK's decision toe impose the cap...not the EU's.

Anyway - I guess this does mean that we'll be able to accept as many highly skilled scientists etc who want to comer here - and will be coming every year after Friday. But I'm not so sure if the cap was never being reached in any case.  But maybe - and it sounds good...and a real positive from leaving the EU - except it isn't.

I suppose we'll hear quite a lot of stuff like this over the coming months - telling us of stuff we will be doing now that we are out of the EU - much of which we'd have been able to do in any case but we chose not to. Or like this - we remove a restriction that the UK impose unilaterally.  Pity we never really had control of our borders...

Looking forward to Saturday.
		
Click to expand...

More rubbish.

Here’s a thought. The U.K. will be able to accept highly skilled people from around the world, not just the EU. But as we don’t know the detail yet by all means continue with your twisted bias.

As for the cap, remind me of the cap imposed on most of the Eastern European countries, by 99% of the EU, when they joined.... you know, the cap that Blair didn’t impose.

All per usual you’re spouting absolute crap, and selling it as fact. C’mon, prove what you’ve said is fact. C’mon back it up or go away in sharp jerky movements.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2020)

robinthehood said:



https://newsthump.com/2020/01/24/nh...efore-the-extra-350-million-per-week-arrives/

Click to expand...

No money yet, we have to keep subsidising the gravy train for another year.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_“That is why, as we leave the EU, I want to send a message that the UK is open to the most talented minds in the world and stands ready to support them to turn their ideas into reality.” _

So says our PM.  But I am a little confused as to who this message is aimed at.  Is it meant to reassure Remoaners that the government is not going to clamp down on skilled immigrants and is not going close the UK to such immigration?  Am I suppose to cheer?  Or is it supposed to make Leavers feel good about us leaving?  Or both?

Except what's new?  The annual cap of 2000 that was previously in place is now removed - and that is ostensibly great - but in any case it was UK's decision toe impose the cap...not the EU's.

Anyway - I guess this does mean that we'll be able to accept as many highly skilled scientists etc who want to comer here - and will be coming every year after Friday. But I'm not so sure if the cap was never being reached in any case.  But maybe - and it sounds good...and a real positive from leaving the EU - except it isn't.

I suppose we'll hear quite a lot of stuff like this over the coming months - telling us of stuff we will be doing now that we are out of the EU - much of which we'd have been able to do in any case but we chose not to. Or like this - we remove a restriction that the UK impose unilaterally.  Pity we never really had control of our borders...

Looking forward to Saturday.
		
Click to expand...

 Balderdash.  You know that the idea is to attract the immigrants we need and not an open door to anyone.  The immigrants we need will be a finite number as we dont have jobs for an infinitive amount 🙄


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 27, 2020)

The Varadker interview is hugely disappointing. Did he not learn from the previous negotiations that macho posturing and points scoring cause way more problems than they solve. He should shut up, let the grown ups talk and do any dealings behind closed doors. The best deal will be one that benefits all parties, not just one side. He has clearly been watching too many episodes of The Apprentice.


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## Mudball (Jan 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Balderdash.  You know that the idea is to attract the immigrants we need and not an open door to anyone.  The immigrants we need will be a finite number as we dont have jobs for an infinitive amount 🙄
		
Click to expand...

is bladerdash a grade above waffle or below ??


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2020)

Mudball said:



			is bladerdash a grade above waffle or below ??
		
Click to expand...

'Balderdash' is on a plane with 'Twaddle'   'Waffle' is IMHO milder or a repetitive form (see DFT's posts)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			More rubbish.

Here’s a thought. The U.K. will be able to accept highly skilled people from around the world, not just the EU. But as we don’t know the detail yet by all means continue with your twisted bias.

As for the cap, remind me of the cap imposed on most of the Eastern European countries, by 99% of the EU, when they joined.... you know, the cap that Blair didn’t impose.

All per usual you’re spouting absolute crap, and selling it as fact. C’mon, prove what you’ve said is fact. C’mon back it up or go away in sharp jerky movements.
		
Click to expand...

I may well have got it wrong but the statement by Johnson implies that the UK could not previously accept unlimited numbers of skilled immigrants from around the world - and as he says '_as we leave the EU' - _is he not implying that somehow there was some restriction imposed by the EU.  And even if he wasn't, surely the cap was simply one that was imposed by the UK unilaterally - and as I understand it reading and listening to different commentators (e.g. Simon Jenkins in the Times) - the limit of 2000 has never been reached in any case.

I am not suggesting at all that what Johnson says is false.  I'm just wondering what constituency - Leave or Remain - he is addressing...maybe both - by telling us that once we leave the EU we will be allowing ourselves to do something that we've always been able to do - if we had allowed ourselves.

If I am wrong then what is it that is changing from what we could do now.


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## robinthehood (Jan 28, 2020)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news...ed-to-prove-theyre-not-english-20200128192923


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2020)

Ah.  My understanding improves - I now understand that the current requirement for the 'brightest and the best' to come to the UK was that they had to have £50k - sufficient to be able to set up a business.  The numbers that could be admitted under this policy was capped at 2000.  In the last year 600 came into the UK under that scheme.  Now it may be that the government is going to remove the financial requirement as well as the cap...I don't know.

Separately it seems that there are going to be different salary requirements for some sectors and tiers of skilled migrants - £30k for some, £25k for others, and a visa will be invalid if an immigrant changes work or reduces hours and moves from a £30k/annum job to a lower paid one for which the £25k/annum limit does not apply.  That'll be fun to manage.  Ah well.   What happens if a mum-to-be comes to UK on a £30k/annum permit - but following birth of child goes part-time...and so her income drops to less than £30k.  I guess that that will all be managed somehow.  That said - the reduction from £30k to £25k is sensible in the context of the NHS - government just has to accept the proposal.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 28, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1222101929301618689


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## Kellfire (Jan 28, 2020)

The coin is a national embarrassment, let’s be honest about that much.


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## Beezerk (Jan 28, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The coin is a national embarrassment, let’s be honest about that much.
		
Click to expand...

Your bitterness really does hold no bounds 🤣🤣🤣
Wgaff about a few coins?


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## Mudball (Jan 28, 2020)

Oh dear.. I thought one of the Brexit pillar was to stop low paid migrants from swamping our public services. Glad to see we are now reducing salary requirement for migrating. Both leavers and remainers can rejoice 

Migrant salary threshold fall 'would boost public sector' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51278298


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## patricks148 (Jan 28, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Oh dear.. I thought one of the Brexit pillar was to stop low paid migrants from swamping our public services. Glad to see we are now reducing salary requirement for migrating. Both leavers and remainers can rejoice

Migrant salary threshold fall 'would boost public sector' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51278298

Click to expand...

another Nail in the BBC's coffin then...


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## PNWokingham (Jan 28, 2020)

This seems strangely familiar!!


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## IanM (Jan 28, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Oh dear.. I thought one of the Brexit pillar was to stop low paid migrants from swamping our public services. Glad to see we are now reducing salary requirement for migrating. Both leavers and remainers can rejoice

Migrant salary threshold fall 'would boost public sector' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51278298

Click to expand...

A lower Threshold is not the same as NO threshold


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The coin is a national embarrassment, let’s be honest about that much.
		
Click to expand...

They've even missed out an Oxford comma (shock horror).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Oh dear.. I thought one of the Brexit pillar was to stop low paid migrants from swamping our public services. Glad to see we are now reducing salary requirement for migrating. Both leavers and remainers can rejoice

Migrant salary threshold fall 'would boost public sector' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51278298

Click to expand...

And I see that Manning suggests dropping an Australian-style points based system as being simply a 'soundbite'.

Also I understand that if £25,600 is too high for some sectors then appropriate lower wage requirements will be set.  So if BIFGA tells the government that their independent fruit grower members can't afford to pay more than £15k per annum pro rata - is that what the government will set for that sector?  And at that level will those workers qualify for benefits such as rent support?


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## Kellfire (Jan 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They've even missed out an Oxford comma (shock horror).
		
Click to expand...

Oxford commas are terrible things!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Oxford commas are terrible things!
		
Click to expand...

only if you don't want to pause


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## IanM (Jan 28, 2020)

Oxford commas are of course. "optional."  But if used, use consistently.   (or so I was taught!)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 28, 2020)

IanM said:



			Oxford commas are of course. "optional."  But if used, use consistently.   (or so I was taught!)
		
Click to expand...

...though it is. I suspect, not optional to substitute full stops where a comma should be?


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## IanM (Jan 28, 2020)

Ooh no. I was also taught not to put a comma where a full stop could be used!

I was a school last century!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2020)

Oxford commas clarify a sentence that is poorly constructed.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I see that Manning suggests dropping an Australian-style points based system as being simply a 'soundbite'.

Also I understand that if £25,600 is too high for some sectors then appropriate lower wage requirements will be set.  So if BIFGA tells the government that their independent fruit grower members can't afford to pay more than £15k per annum pro rata - is that what the government will set for that sector?  And at that level will those workers qualify for benefits such as rent support?
		
Click to expand...

Lets wait and see before looking for problems.


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## bobmac (Jan 29, 2020)

How would this work?
https://www.stayeuropean.org/?fbclid=IwAR23H6sUY05J8mZHVpC-S1-KkPUlq7SaWYo0-zpnYRBgMeMKaf1eWWfKXXM


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			How would this work?
https://www.stayeuropean.org/?fbclid=IwAR23H6sUY05J8mZHVpC-S1-KkPUlq7SaWYo0-zpnYRBgMeMKaf1eWWfKXXM

Click to expand...

It wont but some numpty will fall for it.


----------



## Wolf (Jan 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			How would this work?
https://www.stayeuropean.org/?fbclid=IwAR23H6sUY05J8mZHVpC-S1-KkPUlq7SaWYo0-zpnYRBgMeMKaf1eWWfKXXM

Click to expand...

Sounds like the one's running the petition aren't even sure of that Bob.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jan 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			How would this work?
https://www.stayeuropean.org/?fbclid=IwAR23H6sUY05J8mZHVpC-S1-KkPUlq7SaWYo0-zpnYRBgMeMKaf1eWWfKXXM

Click to expand...

There was me thinking that the Brexit vote was for us to leave the EU. I must have missed the small print where it meant that we would no longer be European.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			There was me thinking that the Brexit vote was for us to leave the EU. I must have missed the small print where it meant that we would no longer be European.
		
Click to expand...

I think the strapline makes 100% clear what it's about...


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jan 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think the strapline makes 100% clear what it's about...
		
Click to expand...

Yes but they seem a bit confused. The web address and logo being "stayeuropean" and the below from their Q&A section....

"*What do you mean by "European citizenship"?*

At the moment, UK citizens have both UK and EU citizenship. After Brexit, the EU citizenship part of this will end, even though we did not choose ourselves to renounce it. *We believe we should have the right to opt in and continue to identify as Europeans*, and that the most logical mechanism for this is individual citizenship of the EU."

No-one is being prevented from identifying as European if that's what they want.


"*How do you imagine the scheme would work?*

We are open minded about this and understand that it would require some flexibility on the part of the EU for it to work. *This is why we think the most likely hope is to make clear that we are a group within the UK of people who wish to continue as Europeans*, asking the EU for associate citizenship or a similar scheme on that basis."

It doesn't matter if we leave the EU. They will still be Europeans.


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes but they seem a bit confused. The web address and logo being "stayeuropean" and the below from their Q&A section....

"*What do you mean by "European citizenship"?*

At the moment, UK citizens have both UK and EU citizenship. After Brexit, the EU citizenship part of this will end, even though we did not choose ourselves to renounce it. *We believe we should have the right to opt in and continue to identify as Europeans*, and that the most logical mechanism for this is individual citizenship of the EU."

No-one is being prevented from identifying as European if that's what they want.


"*How do you imagine the scheme would work?*

We are open minded about this and understand that it would require some flexibility on the part of the EU for it to work. *This is why we think the most likely hope is to make clear that we are a group within the UK of people who wish to continue as Europeans*, asking the EU for associate citizenship or a similar scheme on that basis."

It doesn't matter if we leave the EU. They will still be Europeans.
		
Click to expand...

A problem with many who support the EU.  They cannot/will not separate. or don't appreciate the difference between the two.


----------



## robinthehood (Jan 29, 2020)

Essential remainer golf kit.

https://www.golfdepot.co.uk/golf-balls/callaway-chrome-soft-europe-truvis


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1222569885408157696
How proud we must all be of the way this man represented us as a MEP

There is a way to act and show a bit of humility and class when we leave the EU , Farage just showed the total opposite.

Good words from the VP at the end


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Essential remainer golf kit.

https://www.golfdepot.co.uk/golf-balls/callaway-chrome-soft-europe-truvis

Click to expand...

Guaranteed to produce a good banana shaped shot.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1222569885408157696
How proud we must all be of the way this man represented us as a MEP

There is a way to act and show a bit of humility and class when we leave the EU , Farage just showed the total opposite.

*Good words from the VP at the end*

Click to expand...

 She seems to think the EU is a Nation.    

Farage has achieved his goal, I'm pleased you are proud of it.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			She seems to think the EU is a Nation.

Farage has achieved his goal, I'm pleased you are proud of it.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure what it was about what she said that makes it that she thinks the EU is a nation.

He and his lot think they are just oh so clever with this sort of what I consider to be utterly shameful childish behaviour.  British?  I thought we were a bit better than that sort of thing...but clearly some of us aren't.  Pretty relieved they don't represent us any more.  A plus I guess from us leaving.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure what it was about what she said that makes it that she thinks the EU is a nation.

He and his lot think they are just oh so clever with this sort of what I consider to be utterly shameful childish behaviour.  British?  I thought we were a bit better than that sort of thing...but clearly some of us aren't.  Pretty relieved they don't represent us any more.  A plus I guess from us leaving.
		
Click to expand...

She said we should not hate any Nation, Is she not referring to the EU.

He said we look forward to working with you in the future, nothing wrong with that.  As to waving flags, I thought the EU liked people having flags.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jan 29, 2020)

In related news regarding trusting the public to make the right choice given a difficult choice, I see Mrs Browns Boys won best comedy at the National television awards. 😉


----------



## Mudball (Jan 29, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1222569885408157696
How proud we must all be of the way this man represented us as a MEP

There is a way to act and show a bit of humility and class when we leave the EU , Farage just showed the total opposite.

Good words from the VP at the end
		
Click to expand...


What a clown... I dont think he represents any Remainer or Leaver.... he works for himself and they should cancel his MEP pension (not that he needs it)

BTW, what is the difference between 'leaving the EU' and not being a 'european citizen' ...   I understand we are still part of 'Europe' as a continent but that does not guarantee similar treatment as 'being European' (as we knew before 2020).   There are countries in Europe but not considered 'pre 2020 European' e.g. Macedonia, Albania, Turkey?, Russia? 

After Dec 2020, we will have the same status as Turkey, Kosovo or Macedonia ...    (let that sink in for a min while i put on my flame suit)


----------



## drdel (Jan 29, 2020)

Mudball said:



			What a clown... I dont think he represents any Remainer or Leaver.... he works for himself and they should cancel his MEP pension (not that he needs it)

BTW, what is the difference between 'leaving the EU' and not being a 'european citizen' ...   I understand we are still part of 'Europe' as a continent but that does not guarantee similar treatment as 'being European' (as we knew before 2020).   There are countries in Europe but not considered 'pre 2020 European' e.g. Macedonia, Albania, Turkey?, Russia?

After Dec 2020, we will have the *same status* as Turkey, Kosovo or Macedonia ...    (let that sink in for a min while i put on my flame suit)
		
Click to expand...

Brexit is a process that has now started. When in the EU our economic contribution exceeded 18 of the other members yet Brussels continually ignored our advice. 

We have some great people, and some world leading companies/organisations and Universities who will work hard for the benefit of us all. 
So I fail to see why some make these illogical comparisons while feeling the need to try and put down our country. The UK is a successful nation our economy: 6th in the world, our society is one of the most civilised and environmentally aware and responsible.


----------



## IainP (Jan 29, 2020)

Mudball said:



			BTW, what is the difference between 'leaving the EU' and not being a 'european citizen' ...   I understand we are still part of 'Europe' as a continent but that does not guarantee similar treatment as 'being European' (as we knew before 2020).   There are countries in Europe but not considered 'pre 2020 European' e.g. Macedonia, Albania, Turkey?, Russia? 

After Dec 2020, we will have the same status as Turkey, Kosovo or Macedonia ...    (let that sink in for a min while i put on my flame suit)
		
Click to expand...

I'm not following your point. What 'status' does Switzerland and Norway have?

Surely being a European citizen is because you are in a country that is part of Europe (the continent). Whereas being a citizen of a country that is a member of the EU, you might abbreviate to an 'EU citizen'


----------



## robinthehood (Jan 29, 2020)

Mudball said:



			What a clown... I dont think he represents any Remainer or Leaver.... he works for himself and they should cancel his MEP pension (not that he needs it)

BTW, what is the difference between 'leaving the EU' and not being a 'european citizen' ...   I understand we are still part of 'Europe' as a continent but that does not guarantee similar treatment as 'being European' (as we knew before 2020).   There are countries in Europe but not considered 'pre 2020 European' e.g. Macedonia, Albania, Turkey?, Russia? 

After Dec 2020, we will have the same status as Turkey, Kosovo or Macedonia ...    (let that sink in for a min while i put on my flame suit)
		
Click to expand...

I'll have probably taken up my option of being French by then 🤣


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2020)

Mudball said:



			What a clown... I dont think he represents any Remainer or Leaver.... he works for himself and they should cancel his MEP pension (not that he needs it)

BTW, what is the difference between 'leaving the EU' and not being a 'european citizen' ...   I understand we are still part of 'Europe' as a continent but that does not guarantee similar treatment as 'being European' (as we knew before 2020).   There are countries in Europe but not considered 'pre 2020 European' e.g. Macedonia, Albania, Turkey?, Russia?

After Dec 2020, we will have the same status as Turkey, Kosovo or Macedonia ...    (let that sink in for a min while i put on my flame suit)
		
Click to expand...

You mean the same status as most countries in the World.  Not a member of the EU. Maybe being a member put us in a minority category.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			In related news regarding trusting the public to make the right choice given a difficult choice, I see Mrs Browns Boys won best comedy at the National television awards. 😉
		
Click to expand...

That's right, theyre all stupid cretins who see parellels between Mrs Browns Boys and trading arrangements 🙄


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jan 30, 2020)

All this fuss over a 50p coin but not a single word about the new Brexit stamps......


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## patricks148 (Jan 30, 2020)

Interesting
ndependent.co.uk/voices/brexit-boris-johnson-immigration-points-based-australia-system-a9307411.html?fbclid=IwAR24rzMO5g2I_ZtTnRXMO496mpFlbw_HKhsUzhQ3-81ZZXJYwJUk2OgtXJc


----------



## robinthehood (Jan 30, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Interesting
ndependent.co.uk/voices/brexit-boris-johnson-immigration-points-based-australia-system-a9307411.html?fbclid=IwAR24rzMO5g2I_ZtTnRXMO496mpFlbw_HKhsUzhQ3-81ZZXJYwJUk2OgtXJc

Click to expand...

You'll be needing this   i


----------



## User62651 (Jan 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			Brexit is a process that has now started. When in the EU our economic contribution exceeded 18 of the other members yet Brussels continually ignored our advice.

We have some great people, and some world leading companies/organisations and Universities who will work hard for the benefit of us all.
So I fail to see why some make these illogical comparisons while feeling the need to try and put down our country. The UK is a successful nation our economy: *6th in the world*, our society is one of the most civilised and environmentally aware and responsible.
		
Click to expand...

We were 5th before June 16. Also economy size matters little to the man in the street or the family unit, what matters more is living standards. That's what really counts - in UK all the wealth is held by the very few. If a country is 6th largest economy does it not stand to reason that average standard of living should at least be top 10? We're miles off that with a massive imbalance to SE England too. You'd be better in a country that looks after all it's people and doesn't have delusions of it's own importance because it once was a world power.....imho.


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## Mudball (Jan 30, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Interesting
independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-boris-johnson-immigration-points-based-australia-system-a9307411.html?fbclid=IwAR24rzMO5g2I_ZtTnRXMO496mpFlbw_HKhsUzhQ3-81ZZXJYwJUk2OgtXJc

Click to expand...


_It is a rarely acknowledged fact that the UK has actually had an Oz-inspired system since 2008, first launched by New Labour under Tony Blair. No Brexit is required to run a points-based system after all. _

I think i raised this many moons ago on this forum but got a kicking.   I know numerous folks that have used the PBS in the Tech and Medical sectors - used to make me chuckle everytime BoJo and folks mentioned it.   I guess we are in the post-truth world, so throwing more facts into the debate will only get you fired.


----------



## patricks148 (Jan 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



_It is a rarely acknowledged fact that the UK has actually had an Oz-inspired system since 2008, first launched by New Labour under Tony Blair. No Brexit is required to run a points-based system after all. _

I think i raised this many moons ago on this forum but got a kicking.   I know numerous folks that have used the PBS in the Tech and Medical sectors - used to make me chuckle everytime BoJo and folks mentioned it.   I guess we are in the post-truth world, so throwing more facts into the debate will only get you fired.
		
Click to expand...

i wonder who that could have been


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



_It is a rarely acknowledged fact that the UK has actually had an Oz-inspired system since 2008, first launched by New Labour under Tony Blair. No Brexit is required to run a points-based system after all. _

I think i raised this many moons ago on this forum but got a kicking.   I know numerous folks that have used the PBS in the Tech and Medical sectors - used to make me chuckle everytime BoJo and folks mentioned it.   I guess we are in the post-truth world, so throwing more facts into the debate will only get you fired.
		
Click to expand...

A bit like talking up of removal, once we leave the EU, of the 2000 cap and £50k requirement currently applied to one type of immigrant  - a cap and a constraint unilaterally (as I understand it) put in place by the UK government and that were nothing to do with the EU.  A great soundbite though.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			We were 5th before June 16. Also economy size matters little to the man in the street or the family unit, what matters more is living standards. That's what really counts - in UK all the wealth is held by the very few. If a country is 6th largest economy does it not stand to reason that average standard of living should at least be top 10? We're miles off that with a massive imbalance to SE England too. You'd be better in a country that looks after all it's people and doesn't have delusions of it's own importance because it once was a world power.....imho.
		
Click to expand...

Like Russia?  China? Venezuela?  Come on dont keep us guessing 😉


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## SocketRocket (Jan 30, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i wonder who that could have been

Click to expand...

Probably someone a bit more left wing than me, maybe Genghis Khan.😂


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## Slime (Jan 30, 2020)

Does this thread finish at 11.00pm tomorrow?


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## drdel (Jan 30, 2020)

Slime said:



			Does this thread finish at 11.00pm tomorrow?  

Click to expand...

Dec 31st 2020!!


----------



## robinthehood (Jan 30, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51272017

I think these people are from this thread 😂😂


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51272017

I think these people are from this thread 😂😂
		
Click to expand...

I guess you will be at the Robin Hood Pub  Buxton tomorrow evening after taking your grow up pill 😄😄🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Slab (Jan 31, 2020)

I only periodically look at this beyond the headlines but wondering if anyone has a link to an online resource that does a simple comparison of the PM's approved exit deal to the proposed (& failed) deals of the previous PM please?

I'm curious how things like the border controls etc have finally been resolved, thanks


----------



## robinthehood (Jan 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess you will be at the Robin Hood Pub  Buxton tomorrow evening after taking your grow up pill 😄😄🤣🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

You should stop the late night drinking and read the whole article.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## Beezerk (Jan 31, 2020)

Happy Brexit Day everyone


----------



## robinthehood (Jan 31, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Happy Brexit Day everyone 

Click to expand...

I've got bunting up and everything. It's going to be amazing !


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jan 31, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Happy Brexit Day everyone 

Click to expand...

To show my support for Brexit I'll be working a 12 hour shift for a UK company on a Panamanian flagged survey vessel in Dutch waters with a Ukrainian crew. And then tomorrow, after Brexit, I'll get up and do exactly the same again.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

Slab said:



			I only periodically look at this beyond the headlines but wondering if anyone has a link to an online resource that does a simple comparison of the PM's approved exit deal to the proposed (& failed) deals of the previous PM please?

I'm curious how things like the border controls etc have finally been resolved, thanks
		
Click to expand...

I think a Canada type deal is what’s to be sought, and it is suggested that Johnson has accepted that such a deal will not be frictionless and so some form of border control will be required in that respect.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I've got bunting up and everything. It's going to be amazing !
		
Click to expand...

You’ll have an epiphany at 11pm - just you wait.


----------



## Sweep (Jan 31, 2020)

Happy Brexit day peeps!


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## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2020)

Happy Brexit Day


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

Don’t worry folks - Steve Baker great interview this morning - all will be great once we have trade deals with US, Japan, Australia and New Zealand as well as the EU in place.  But what I wonder am I going to be buying from these distant places that I cannot buy today i just do not know.  No matter - he tells me these places may seem a long way away (and they are) but - you know - with cheap air flight and the Internet and all that they are not _really_ that remote.

Oh - well that’s fine then.  But hey ho. And he still wasn‘t really able to tell me how I would notice an improvement in my day2day life - and if _he _can’t then who can? Maybe I’ll get it one day.  But I am not holding my breath in anticipation.  Happy Brexit Day indeed 👍

[edit] Btw - yes I know there will be differences at government and business level and there may well be advantages in that respect...but at street level?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don’t worry folks - Steve Baker great interview this morning - all will be great once we have trade deals with US, Japan, Australia and New Zealand as well as the EU in place.  But what I wonder am I going to be buying from these distant places that I cannot buy today i just do not know.  No matter - he tells me these places may seem a long way away (and they are) but - you know - with cheap air flight and the Internet and all that they are not _really_ that remote. 

Oh - well that’s fine then.  But hey ho. *And he still wasn‘t really able to tell me how I would notice an improvement in my day2day life*. Maybe I’ll get it one day.  But I am not holding my breath in anticipation.  Happy Brexit Day indeed 👍
		
Click to expand...

I'd be interested to hear how you think your day to day life is going to be noticeably worse after Brexit.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'd be interested to hear how you think your day to day life is going to be noticeably worse after Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

Not the question Baker was asked.  Leaving is supposed to improve our lot - he still was unable to answer that question without talking autonomy, sovereignty etc


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not the question Baker was asked.  Leaving is supposed to improve our lot.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't asking about Baker and wasn't interested in his response. I was asking why you think your day to day life will be worse after Brexit.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wasn't asking about Baker and wasn't interested in his response. I was asking why you think your day to day life will be worse after Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

You might well ask that and it is a valid question - but that is not the question that Baker was asked and I posted about Baker's interview, and the question he was asked - what improvements and when?  And even if nothing in *my *day2day gets worse - things are supposed to get better...

BTW - and as you ask but I will not go into it - both my son and by B-i-L have already been significantly impacted in their work by the decision to leave the EU.  They are the sort of folks who might reasonably ask - improvements/benefits - what and when?  Baker did not answer that question.


----------



## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You might well ask that and it is a valid question - but that is not the question that Baker was asked and I posted about Baker's interview, and the question he was asked - what improvements and when?  And even if nothing in *my *day2day gets worse - things are supposed to get better...

BTW - and as you ask but I will not go into it - both my son and by B-i-L have already been significantly impacted in their work by the decision to leave the EU.  They are the sort of folks who might reasonably ask - improvements/benefits - what and when?  Baker did not answer that question.
		
Click to expand...

Just like your not answering the question then and are being very politician like in using lots of words but avoiding the actual question .. 

You've mentioned your BiL in past but never given accurate account of the impact. You also mentioned your son inability to do his work, yet today alone you've posted in the gladden the heart thread he has been awarded months of contracts that could see him through beyond May. So its not currently impacting him is it, plus you mentioned many times before he couldn't get work and blamed the government for it not brexit, but now brexit day is upon us its brexits fault even though he now has work.. You really need to work out what your saying and stick to it instead of contradicting yourself but continue to question others... 

Oh and perhaps asnwer the question you were asked how will  it directly affect you, not them but you.


----------



## Dando (Jan 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Just like your not answering the question then and are being very politician like in using lots of words but avoiding the actual question ..

You've mentioned your BiL in past but never given accurate account of the impact. You also mentioned your son inability to do his work, yet today alone you've posted in the gladden the heart thread he has been awarded months of contracts that could see him through beyond May. So its not currently impacting him is it, plus you mentioned many times before he couldn't get work and blamed the government for it not brexit, but now brexit day is upon us its brexits fault even though he now has work.. You really need to work out what your saying and stick to it instead of contradicting yourself but continue to question others...

Oh and perhaps asnwer the question you were asked how will  it directly affect you, not them but you.
		
Click to expand...

He twists and turns like a twisty turny thing


----------



## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

Dando said:



			He twists and turns like a twisty turny thing
		
Click to expand...

Like one of those twisty turny joined up things they give kids with short attention spans because they go round and round on themselves to keep them occupied as they don't know where the beginning or the end is🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## IanM (Jan 31, 2020)

Job cuts immediately attributable to Brexit??

BBC are laying folk off...................... probably due to EU _"educational grants" _stopping?    Or maybe the EU had a "pay back" clause in case us leaving!


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			You should stop the late night drinking and read the whole article.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Dont drink mate but if I did it may numb me to the nausiem of your posts.
Please take up your French option  😛


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jan 31, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wasn't asking about Baker and wasn't interested in his response. I was asking why you think your day to day life will be worse after Brexit.
		
Click to expand...

I'm just made up for the NHS who will be getting an extra £350 million a week from tomorrow.  Happy days


----------



## Dando (Jan 31, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm just made up for the NHS who will be getting an extra £350 million a week from tomorrow.  Happy days 

Click to expand...

😴🥱


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jan 31, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm just made up for the NHS who will be getting an extra £350 million a week from tomorrow.  Happy days 

Click to expand...

They're going to have to wait until 1st January 2021 for that. Still got keep paying the membership fees until we actually leave. So if you're planning on getting ill I'd recommend that you leave it for at least 12 months. And if you can possibly hold off for 4 + 1/2 years then you'll be able to get treated in one of the 40 brand new hospitals that the Tories are going to build.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm just made up for the NHS who will be getting an extra £350 million a week from tomorrow.  Happy days 

Click to expand...

Oh deary deary dear !!!!   You're so funny 🤭


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			They're going to have to wait until 1st January 2021 for that. Still got keep paying the membership fees until we actually leave. So if you're planning on getting ill I'd recommend that you leave it for at least 12 months. And if you can possibly hold off for 4 + 1/2 years then you'll be able to get treated in one of the 40 brand new hospitals that the Tories are going to build. 

Click to expand...

So, is it going to happen after all?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jan 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So, is it going to happen after all?
		
Click to expand...

Is what going to happen?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

IanM said:



			Job cuts immediately attributable to Brexit??

BBC are laying folk off...................... probably due to EU _"educational grants" _stopping?    Or maybe the EU had a "pay back" clause in case us leaving!  

Click to expand...

The BBC have been slashing budgets for a few years now - in large part I guess due to DWP removing the funding it provided the BBC with for free licencing for the over 75s.

As a result of the cutbacks - BBC new project and 3rd party Service Delivery contract budgets were slashed, and as a result of that at least one major 3rd party I know has had to cut it's UK-based BBC Account engineering; finance; service and project management staff quite significantly - with these jobs going to near shore and offshore service delivery centres and centres of excellence set up by that company in Poland, Romania and India.  Talking 100s of UK jobs.


----------



## robinthehood (Jan 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Dont drink mate but if I did it may numb me to the nausiem of your posts.
Please take up you French option  😛
		
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Ah it'll just be a passport of convenience. 😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

Dando said:



			He twists and turns like a twisty turny thing
		
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OK - I have explained about my BiL - but if I must.

He has built up significant experience and qualifications working overseas teaching English as a Foreign language in far east countries mainly - and has reached a fairly senior position in the 'schools' he has been working in.  He is now 62.

His long term working strategy was to take that experience and his job history and move to the EU for his late working life, better paid so build up a retirement fund, and then for retirement.  Unfortunately Brexit has meant that EU language schools no longer seem to be interested in hiring British teachers.  They seem to be able to get all the teachers and Directors of Study (his level) they need from Ireland and elsewhere in the EU - they appear to have decided that they do not need to have the hassle and bureaucracy associated with employing a British teacher now that the UK is out of the EU.

And it is as simple as that.


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## Slab (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think a Canada type deal is what’s to be sought, and it is suggested that Johnson has accepted that such a deal will not be frictionless and so some form of border control will be required in that respect.
		
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From what I read on BBC it appears that this is pretty much the self-same deal that was available & rejected many many months & a GE ago 
Seems there was a point of principle re the UK parliaments refusal to accept internal UK border checks that May’s own party and others in parliament steadfastly refused to concede any ground with the EU (inc the current PM) and this more than anything prevented her getting her deal approved & as a result she got booted out of office for failing to deliver (all seems fair so far)

but from what I read Boris (now as PM & faced with the exact same task) has simply reversed his stance and conceded the border check & lo & behold the majority are ok with it now & have voted it through with Boris getting the credit for taking May’s deal + the border check he didn't support & running with it as his, a bit odd when he was the one stopping it in the first place. He seems a bit of a cad & a wrong un if you ask me… 

If that’s the accepted strategy it really doesn’t look good going forward over the next 4 years as even more negotiations kick off


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is what going to happen?
		
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Was it you who was saying for so long that Brexit wont be allowed to happen.
If it wasn't you I apologise.


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - I have explained about my BiL - but if I must.

He has built up significant experience and qualifications working overseas teaching English as a Foreign language in far east countries mainly - and has reached a fairly senior position in the 'schools' he has been working in.  He is now 62.

His long term working strategy was to take that experience and his job history and move to the EU for his late working life, better paid so build up a retirement fund, and then for retirement.  Unfortunately Brexit has meant that EU language schools no longer seem to be interested in hiring British teachers.  They seem to be able to get all the teachers and Directors of Study (his level) they need from Ireland and elsewhere in the EU - they appear to have decided that they do not need to have the hassle and bureaucracy associated with employing a British teacher now that the UK is out of the EU.

And it is as simple as that.
		
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Don't make it up. What hassle and bureaucracy is associated with employing a British teacher, nothing has been decided or do you have inside information on this years discussion. You seem to be making things up just to suit your negative views.

PS: China has no problem employing British teachers to teach English and it's well payed.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Ah it'll just be a passport of convenience. 😉
		
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Oh dear, would that be a public convenience?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

...and as I also mentioned my son - I'll just explain how Brexit has impacted him.  

His work is in event and venue management for touring bands and artists - he gets work by getting assigned to tours - no work, no pay.  

Many bands and artists are now not including the UK in their tour plans due to potential issues - specifically in respect of work permits; merchandising sales; border checks and associated additional costs (in a low margin industry).  What this means to my son is that he is already looking at a reduction in the work coming his way due reduced numbers of bands touring - hopefully he is becoming sufficiently established in the UK business that he'll be in demand - but he has no control over that whatsoever.   

He saw this coming immediately following the referendum as he himself was in a touring band - and he saw the potential issues with touring in the EU27 - where most of the interest in his music lies.  So he jacked that in - and only does it on-line now - and moved his focus to supporting touring bands and other acts.  And of course as mentioned...he keeps his fingers crossed.

Simple really.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Don't make it up. What hassle and bureaucracy is associated with employing a British teacher, nothing has been decided or do you have inside information on this years discussion. You seem to be making things up just to suit your negative views.

PS: China has no problem employing British teachers to teach English and it's well payed.
		
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OK - why would I make this up...do you wish me to post a scan of all the rejections he has had...do you want to ask him...no don't - he is a very very p'd off 62 yr old at the moment.  BTW - he tells me that China is a dreadful place to teach English...and yes there are jobs out there - but China was not in his career plan.

Does the *evidence* of Brexit impacting ordinary folks negatively - evev before we have left - not fit with the agenda?


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and as I also mentioned my son - I'll just explain how Brexit has impacted him. 

His work is in event and venue management for touring bands and artists - he gets work by getting assigned to tours - no work, no pay. 

Many bands and artists are now not including the UK in their tour plans due to potential issues - specifically in respect of work permits; merchandising sales; border checks and associated additional costs (in a low margin industry).  What this means to my son is that he is already looking at a reduction in the work coming his way due reduced numbers of bands touring - hopefully he is becoming sufficiently established in the UK business that he'll be in demand - but he has no control over that whatsoever.  

He saw this coming immediately following the referendum as he himself was in a touring band - and he saw the potential issues with touring in the EU27 - where most of the interest in his music lies.  So he jacked that in - and only does it on-line now - and moved his focus to supporting touring bands and other acts.  And of course as mentioned...he keeps his fingers crossed.

Simple really.
		
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You continue to just make it up. Most of the big bands that come to the UK and also tour Europe are from outside of Europe. Nothing has changed for them and again no decision have been made on the rest of your post.

You really are telling massive porkies now.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Was it you who was saying for so long that Brexit wont be allowed to happen.
If it wasn't you I apologise.
		
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Nope not me. Possibly IanM or MegaSteve but not 100% certain. Although for a long time I did share the sentiment that it wouldn't happen and that there would be a 2nd referendum on the matter.


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - why would I make this up...do you wish me to post a scan of all the rejections he has had...do you want to ask him...no don't - he is a very very p'd off 62 yr old at the moment.  BTW - he tells me that China is a dreadful place to teach English...and yes there are jobs out there - but China was not in his career plan.

Does the *evidence* of Brexit impacting ordinary folks negatively - evev before we have left - not fit with the agenda?
		
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As there is no real evidence yet as nobody knows what the overall impact is I will suggest you stop making it up.


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## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - I have explained about my BiL - but if I must.

He has built up significant experience and qualifications working overseas teaching English as a Foreign language in far east countries mainly - and has reached a fairly senior position in the 'schools' he has been working in.  He is now 62.

His long term working strategy was to take that experience and his job history and move to the EU for his late working life, better paid so build up a retirement fund, and then for retirement.  Unfortunately Brexit has meant that EU language schools no longer seem to be interested in hiring British teachers.  They seem to be able to get all the teachers and Directors of Study (his level) they need from Ireland and elsewhere in the EU - they appear to have decided that they do not need to have the hassle and bureaucracy associated with employing a British teacher now that the UK is out of the EU.

And it is as simple as that.
		
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Absolute twaddle.. 

EU countries will still employ English teachers provided they meet the criteria of the person they're seeking




``

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 to employ as with non EU countries. My friends daughter for one as an example just been employed this month in Germany as an English speaking teacher. Plus you say his long term plan but he's 62 years old, thats not a long term plan for retirement thats looking for short term gain  nothing wrong with that at all, but in that 3 years he has left he would  still need apply, interview and go through all the processes first and there is never a guarantee anyone is going to get a job. Which if he was hoping to do all that in 3 short years when a school maybe looking for something more long term than that for investment in an overseas worker then he should have sorted his long term plans a lot longer ago.


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## Dando (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and as I also mentioned my son - I'll just explain how Brexit has impacted him. 

His work is in event and venue management for touring bands and artists - he gets work by getting assigned to tours - no work, no pay. 

Many bands and artists are now not including the UK in their tour plans due to potential issues - specifically in respect of work permits; merchandising sales; border checks and associated additional costs (in a low margin industry).  What this means to my son is that he is already looking at a reduction in the work coming his way due reduced numbers of bands touring - hopefully he is becoming sufficiently established in the UK business that he'll be in demand - but he has no control over that whatsoever.  

He saw this coming immediately following the referendum as he himself was in a touring band - and he saw the potential issues with touring in the EU27 - where most of the interest in his music lies.  So he jacked that in - and only does it on-line now - and moved his focus to supporting touring bands and other acts.  And of course as mentioned...he keeps his fingers crossed.

Simple really.
		
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what a crock of shite!
Most bands are touring the uk.
Maybe your son needs to work in a different industry but you’ll no doubt find a way to blame brexit for something


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## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and as I also mentioned my son - I'll just explain how Brexit has impacted him.

His work is in event and venue management for touring bands and artists - he gets work by getting assigned to tours - no work, no pay.

Many bands and artists are now not including the UK in their tour plans due to potential issues - specifically in respect of work permits; merchandising sales; border checks and associated additional costs (in a low margin industry).  What this means to my son is that he is already looking at a reduction in the work coming his way due reduced numbers of bands touring - hopefully he is becoming sufficiently established in the UK business that he'll be in demand - but he has no control over that whatsoever. 

He saw this coming immediately following the referendum as he himself was in a touring band - and he saw the potential issues with touring in the EU27 - where most of the interest in his music lies.  So he jacked that in - and only does it on-line now - and moved his focus to supporting touring bands and other acts.  And of course as mentioned...he keeps his fingers crossed.

Simple really.
		
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Further twaddle... So your son knew more about the impact of leaving the EU in 2016 than any economist, politician or anyone else for that matter. Bands will not stop coming to the UK considering we are  in  top 3 highest global consumers of music.

Nobody could or can still predict the outcome of brexits  impact on the individual , yet your son could and knew this nearly 4 years ago but chose to carry on working in and industry that supposedly shut down in him overnight. Im sorry SILH but your either being very gullible in what you believe or simply as Old Skier put it, making it up.


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Absolute twaddle..

EU countries will still employ English teachers provided they meet the criteria of the person they're seeking to employ as with non EU countries. My friends daughter for one as an example just been employed this month in Germany as an English speaking teacher. Plus you say his long term plan but he's 62 years old, thats not a long term plan for retirement thats looking for short term gain  nothing wrong with that at all, but in that 3 years he has left he would  still need apply, interview and go through all the processes first and there is never a guarantee anyone is going to get a job. Which if he was hoping to do all that in 3 short years when a school maybe looking for something more long term than that for investment in an overseas worker then he should have sorted his long term plans a lot longer ago.
		
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Nah, come on, the EU only employs EU nationals, didn't you know.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

I simply point out the experience of two people I know - both who have significant experience in the sectors they work in - and I am rubbished and abused.   I simply convey their experiences as described to me, honestly and without embellishment.  OK - they may both be wrong - and they may be misunderstanding what they are actually experiencing.  I am simply telling of their experiences.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Further twaddle... So your son knew more about the impact of leaving the EU in 2016 than any economist, politician or anyone else for that matter. Bands will not stop coming to the UK considering we are  in  top 3 highest global consumers of music.

Nobody could or can still predict the outcome of brexits  impact on the individual , yet your son could and knew this nearly 4 years ago but chose to carry on working in and industry that supposedly shut down in him overnight. Im sorry SILH but your either being very gullible in what you believe or simply as Old Skier put it, making it up.
		
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He gave up touring as he was not making much money and his experience of border controls (that didn't exist) into Switzerland convinced him that whatever was going to happen - it wasn't going to get any easier - and the little he was making might well just vanish - and so he got out of touring.  He looked ahead and decided that he'd get into something else in the same sector sooner rather than later - where he is today.  And if that is impacted - he knows what he'll next move into...but that does not mean he has not been affected.


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## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Further twaddle... So your son knew more about the impact of leaving the EU in 2016 than any economist, politician or anyone else for that matter. Bands will not stop coming to the UK considering we are  in  top 3 highest global consumers of music.

Nobody could or can still predict the outcome of brexits  impact on the individual , yet your son could and knew this nearly 4 years ago but chose to carry on working in and industry that supposedly shut down in him overnight. Im sorry SILH but your either being very gullible in what you believe or simply as Old Skier put it, making it up.
		
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Sorry yep forgot everyone doesn't need us except in war times.. At least that's mentality of some posters😂


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply point out the experience of two people I know - both who have significant experience in the sectors they work in - and I am rubbished and abused.   I simply convey their experiences as described to me, honestly and without embellishment.  OK - they may both be wrong - and they may be misunderstanding what they are actually experiencing.  I am simply telling of their experiences.
		
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Where's the abuse. Nobody on here has abused you just failed to believe your "hairdresser comments". You cannot provide any facts or evidence as no negotiations on how things will work here or in the EU has been established.

If you think disbelief is abuse then your best bet would not be to comment untill the actual facts are released.


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## bobmac (Jan 31, 2020)

What was the question again?


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2020)

bobmac said:



			What was the question again?
		
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How many eggs make 10


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## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply point out the experience of two people I know - both who have significant experience in the sectors they work in - and I am rubbished and abused.   I simply convey their experiences as described to me, honestly and without embellishment.  OK - they may both be wrong - and they may be misunderstanding what they are actually experiencing.  I am simply telling of their experiences.
		
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Nobody is abusing you stop being so melodramatic. People are questioning your posts because they make no factual sense basee on immigration law, employment laws or the fact nobody even those holding the negotiations can tell us individual impact until negotiations are complete and we've been living post Brexit for a number of years. You may not be embellishing their plight but they seem to be because both examples don't add up because in both cases those jobs are still readily available, in one case an industry that grows year on year and the other someone nearing retirement that doesn't seem to have actually thought it through properly of how long it would take to get a job abroad as an EU member let alone non EU.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He gave up touring as he was not making much money and his experience of border controls (that didn't exist) into Switzerland convinced him that whatever was going to happen - it wasn't going to get any easier - and the little he was making might well just vanish - and so he got out of touring.  He looked ahead and decided that he'd get into something else in the same sector sooner rather than later - where he is today.  And if that is impacted - he knows what he'll next move into...but that does not mean he has not been affected.
		
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And that proves the point he wasn't making much money that has nothing to do  with the EU or Brexit it is the nature of his business many musicians go a lifetime earning a pittance because not everyone makes it, and he didn't like border control so he gave up. Im sorry but he can't have loved it that much if the thought of having to show his passport put him off. Nobody knows how it will be impacted and you've time and again posted the government or Brexit cost your son his income, but facts again point to him working in a competitive industry that he has given up on rather than persuing it.


None of this as i said before is personal or abusive its merely questions to exactly what you have posted and a somewhat woe is us attitude of those points when nobody has any clue on what Brexit holds for us.

Im pleased he now has current work for the foreseeable and hopefully will ease his and your burdens financially.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 31, 2020)

bobmac said:



			What was the question again?
		
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Is it a black dress or a blue dress 👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 31, 2020)

He may not be being “abused” but it’s the same posters time and time again badgering him for explanations or further information and questioning his posts.

If he bothers you so much, put him on ignore.

No other poster gets the attention/replies like silh.


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## Dando (Jan 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			How many eggs make 10
		
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are they EU eggs?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 31, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223197450003013639
Good ol Glasgow's barometer, finger on the pulse as usual.


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## Slab (Jan 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Don't make it up. What hassle and bureaucracy is associated with employing a British teacher, nothing has been decided or do you have inside information on this years discussion. You seem to be making things up just to suit your negative views.

PS: China has no problem employing British teachers to teach English and it's well payed.
		
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Am I missing something? leaving aside if Hogan has a valid point or not re his BiL, surely the answer isn't to suggest since 'its not been decided' he shouldn't be concerned/ or is making stuff up

Working overseas (outside EU) i know for a fact that there mucho extra hassle and bureaucracy that would not exist if i had simply moved from Uk to France to work, why would you be thinking that just because its not been decided yet that the UKs exit from that shared employment market will result in no change re amount of hassle 

On balance I think its pretty safe to assume there will be an increase in the hassle/bureaucracy compared to the past (otherwise the people of the UK would continue to get the benefits of being in the EU shared employment market without paying 350billion a month membership) the thing that hasn't been decided yet is how much extra hassle there will be


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2020)

Slab said:



			Am I missing something? leaving aside if Hogan has a valid point or not re his BiL, surely the answer isn't to suggest since 'its not been decided' he shouldn't be concerned/ or is making stuff up

Working overseas (outside EU) i know for a fact that there mucho extra hassle and bureaucracy that would not exist if i had simply moved from Uk to France to work, why would you be thinking that just because its not been decided yet that the UKs exit from that shared employment market will result in no change re amount of hassle

On balance I think its pretty safe to assume there will be an increase in the hassle/bureaucracy compared to the past (otherwise the people of the UK would continue to get the benefits of being in the EU shared employment market without paying 350billion a month membership) the thing that hasn't been decided yet is how much extra hassle there will be
		
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Not suggesting the won't be any hassle, equally I'm not suggesting that there will be hassle. Nobody knows what agreements will or won't be made.


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## Slab (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and as I also mentioned my son - I'll just explain how Brexit has impacted him.

His work is in event and venue management for touring bands and artists - he gets work by getting assigned to tours - no work, no pay.

Many bands and artists are now not including the UK in their tour plans due to potential issues - specifically in respect of work permits; merchandising sales; border checks and associated additional costs (in a low margin industry).  What this means to my son is that he is already looking at a reduction in the work coming his way due reduced numbers of bands touring - hopefully he is becoming sufficiently established in the UK business that he'll be in demand - but he has no control over that whatsoever. 

He saw this coming immediately following the referendum as he himself was in a touring band - and he saw the potential issues with touring in the EU27 - where most of the interest in his music lies.  So he jacked that in - and only does it on-line now - and moved his focus to supporting touring bands and other acts.  And of course as mentioned...he keeps his fingers crossed.

Simple really.
		
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I think the impact from this scenario is mighty thin compared to your BiL
He may have seen a change in the trend but it would be very difficult (or actually its all too easy) just to say that's brexit for you. I suspect the touring plans of bands are dependent on far more than the UK being part of the EU


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## Slab (Jan 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not suggesting the won't be any hassle, equally I'm not suggesting that there will be hassle. Nobody knows what agreements will or won't be made.
		
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sure... but you do know there will be more hassle don't you


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 31, 2020)

Well a look in my bank balance tells me how much impact Brexit is having; bugger all, both effect and in the bank. I’ve spent most of it on concert tickets, so somebody is touring.  Of the current batch, 3 American acts, 2 British based bands and one British singer based abroad.

But nobody’s touring. 🤔


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## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			He may not be being “abused” but it’s the same posters time and time again badgering him for explanations or further information and questioning his posts.

If he bothers you so much, put him on ignore.

No other poster gets the attention/replies like silh.
		
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Nobody is badgering him, they're replying to his posts. He posts in a forthright manner that often leads to people questioning it. Yes it's  often the same people as there aren't that many that post on this subject matter and others may not be gather the attention SILH does but again that comes down to someone posting opinion as facts, who then doubles back on himself in several ways.

It's an open forum so if people want ti reply and question that is their right, just like it  SILH right to put others on ignore if he doesnt wish to be questioned on what is often something he posts as fact or biased.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

P


Blue in Munich said:



			Well a look in my bank balance tells me how much impact Brexit is having; bugger all, both effect and in the bank. I’ve spent most of it on concert tickets, so somebody is touring.  Of the current batch, 3 American acts, 2 British based bands and one British singer based abroad.

But nobody’s touring. 🤔
		
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Plenty folks touring.  Just that looking into the future the two event and venue management companies that my son works with, and that tour managers for bands contact to arrange UK venues etc, have started to hear that some bands are not going to be including the UK...at least for the time being.  

This will of course not be impacting the major bands or acts to the extent that it impacts the lesser bands, for whom hassle means cost - and for whom selling merch is their greatest source of impact on a tour.  This is just what my son is being told by these companies as he goes to them seeking work.  He's still getting work off them - and he seems to be getting established - so should be OK.  But there are no guarantees.


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2020)

Slab said:



			sure... but you do know there will be more hassle don't you 

Click to expand...

No


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Nobody is badgering him, they're replying to his posts. He posts in a forthright manner that often leads to people questioning it. Yes it's  often the same people as there aren't that many that post on this subject matter and others may not be gather the attention SILH does but again that comes down to someone posting opinion as facts, who then doubles back on himself in several ways.

It's an open forum so if people want ti reply and question that is their right, just like it  SILH right to put others on ignore if he doesnt wish to be questioned on what is often something he posts as fact or biased.
		
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You’ve dressed it up a bit, who says he’s posting in a “forthright manner” that’s how you read them! 

I read them as a the ramblings of a bitter old man.

Doesn’t make either of us correct, as for who answers him and who posts on this thread, I’d suggest that’s more down to  the poster and everyone else ignoring or sick of the stuck record.

You may not see it as badgering, but when people are calling him a liar (in a polite manner) questioning his integrity etc then I’ll disagree with you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

Slab said:



			sure... but you do know there will be more hassle don't you 

Click to expand...

..and BiL is already finding that EU schools seems to be less interested...  And he has contacts in the schools that seem to confirm his fears.  It might be his age of course - but for TEFL?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’ve dressed it up a bit, who says he’s posting in a “forthright manner” that’s how you read them!

I read them as a the ramblings of a bitter old man.

Doesn’t make either of us correct, as for who answers him and who posts on this thread, I’d suggest that’s more down to  the poster and everyone else ignoring or sick of the stuck record.

You may not see it as badgering, but when people are calling him a liar (in a polite manner) questioning his integrity etc then I’ll disagree with you.
		
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I'm not bitter and I am not old - thank you    My BiL is certainly bitter, and my son is p'd off but getting on with it and keeping his fingers crossed.


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## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’ve dressed it up a bit, who says he’s posting in a “forthright manner” that’s how you read them!

I read them as a the ramblings of a bitter old man.

Doesn’t make either of us correct, as for who answers him and who posts on this thread, I’d suggest that’s more down to  the poster and everyone else ignoring or sick of the stuck record.

You may not see it as badgering, but when people are calling him a liar (in a polite manner) questioning his integrity etc then I’ll disagree with you.
		
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Feel free to disagree, but people are entitled to question integrity of a post or poster especially when posting opinion as fact.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not bitter and I am not old - thank you    My BiL is certainly bitter, and my son is p'd off but getting on with it and keeping his fingers crossed.
		
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Never said you actually were, just how I picture you when reading your posts.
You might be the best the bloke in the world, I just don’t get that impression from your posts on Brexit over the last 2-3 years.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Feel free to disagree, but people are entitled to question integrity of a post or poster especially when posting opinion as fact.
		
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Then I’d politely suggest you take his “facts” with a pinch of salt.


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## Hobbit (Jan 31, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well a look in my bank balance tells me how much impact Brexit is having; bugger all, both effect and in the bank. I’ve spent most of it on concert tickets, so somebody is touring.  Of the current batch, 3 American acts, 2 British based bands and one British singer based abroad.

But nobody’s touring. 🤔
		
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Its made a 10% to 14% difference to my bank accounts for the last 3.5 years.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and BiL is already finding that EU schools seems to be less interested...  And he has contacts in the schools that seem to confirm his fears.  It might be his age of course - but for TEFL?
		
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My BiL has been a TEFL teacher for over 15yrs now in China. Part of his current role is recruiting foreign teachers. Doing TEFL in Europe is the easy option, close to the UK, easy to get home, cheap flights, local languages relatively manageable, and because of this Europe has a glut of people looking to teach there. Younger people in particular like this option before going home and getting a proper job. The vacancies are further afield, often in the Far East. Thinking you can rock up at 62, sadly not attractive to a head on the whole, and walk into a teaching job in Europe is optimistic based on my BiL experiences, they are the plum jobs.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its made a 10% to 14% difference to my bank accounts for the last 3.5 years.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it’s had a affect on a number of my colleagues- loss of a big contract and 10 jobs lost plus more to come 😢


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 31, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My BiL has been a TEFL teacher for over 15yrs now in China. Part of his current role is recruiting foreign teachers. Doing TEFL in Europe is the easy option, close to the UK, easy to get home, cheap flights, local languages relatively manageable, and because of this Europe has a glut of people looking to teach there. Younger people in particular like this option before going home and getting a proper job. The vacancies are further afield, often in the Far East. Thinking you can rock up at 62, sadly not attractive to a head on the whole, and walk into a teaching job in Europe is optimistic based on my BiL experiences, they are the plum jobs.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed they seem to be.  He has spent most of the last 25yrs teaching and building his experience and qualifications in Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and Myanmar - maybe even a short time in Japan.  His aim was to get a decent 'final' role in an EU school.  He gets occasional 'out of term time' jobs in UK unis - but they are for at the most 10weeks at a time and those that are kept on into term time are those who have been there - obviously.  A difficult nut to crack.  I'm not sure why his age should count against him as it takes time to get the experience - though I suspect that it does.  But it does seem to be the case that his contacts tell him what's happening in the EU market.

He may well find that he has to head off to China - as grim (in his experience) as teaching the Chinese is.  But I wouldn't want to be faced with that prospect...


----------



## spongebob59 (Jan 31, 2020)

the article linked is worth a read.





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223230802210754561


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He may well find that he has to head off to China - as grim (in his experience) as teaching the Chinese is.  But I wouldn't want to be faced with that prospect...
		
Click to expand...

Me either. I suppose that is the game he is in though, as is my BiL. I have no envy of his life at all but it suits him and that is all that matters.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He gave up touring as he was not making much money and his experience of border controls (that didn't exist) into Switzerland convinced him that whatever was going to happen - it wasn't going to get any easier - and the little he was making might well just vanish - and so he got out of touring.  He looked ahead and decided that he'd get into something else in the same sector sooner rather than later - where he is today.  And if that is impacted - he knows what he'll next move into...but that does not mean he has not been affected.
		
Click to expand...

I don't suppose its because hes not that good?  Just asking.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its made a 10% to 14% difference to my bank accounts for the last 3.5 years.
		
Click to expand...

What will you spend it on


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jan 31, 2020)

I’m going to celebrate :-

The end of this thread 

The constant going around in circles

The lack of empathy towards other people’s situations

The single mindedness 

The arrogance 

The despair

The vultures 

The idea that it’s a game that someone wins and someone loses 

The way this whole process has divided people all over the country 

Farage going and hopefully gone for good 

The attitude to people who voted a different way 

The insults 

The derogatory comments


----------



## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m going to celebrate :-

The end of this thread

The constant going around in circles

The lack of empathy towards other people’s situations

The single mindedness

The arrogance

The despair

The vultures

The idea that it’s a game that someone wins and someone loses

The way this whole process has divided people all over the country

Farage going and hopefully gone for good

The attitude to people who voted a different way

The insults

The derogatory comments
		
Click to expand...

So are you waiting till end of December then when Brexit deals finally complete because none of what you've posted os going to change tonight. People still believe in what they choose to, whilst I agree with what you posted simply none of that's going to change opinions on what people voted for or personal opinions.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jan 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			So are you waiting till end of December then when Brexit deals finally complete because none of what you've posted os going to change tonight. People still believe in what they choose to, whilst I agree with what you posted simply none of that's going to change opinions on what people voted for or personal opinions.
		
Click to expand...

I think I’ll wait until all of them happen - going to be waiting a long time I reckon 😬


----------



## Hobbit (Jan 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Nobody is badgering him, they're replying to his posts. He posts in a forthright manner that often leads to people questioning it. Yes it's  often the same people as there aren't that many that post on this subject matter and others may not be gather the attention SILH does but again that comes down to someone posting opinion as facts, who then doubles back on himself in several ways.

It's an open forum so if people want ti reply and question that is their right, just like it  SILH right to put others on ignore if he doesnt wish to be questioned on what is often something he posts as fact or biased.
		
Click to expand...

Its the Armageddon aspect to his posts that lead to very direct responses. That, and in the early days he used to call people thick for voting Leave. Yes, he's dropped the line of Leavers are knuckle draggers, not that I believe he's changed his beliefs in that. For me, he's the Farage of Remain, i.e. an extremist.

I agree with him the Leave will hurt the economy in the early days, and I think Leave isn't the brightest decision for the economy in the short term. But after that no one knows how it will pan out.

As for that right of reply, we all have it and anyone can scroll past any poster, or put them on ignore. But if someone is going to stick their head above the parapet and use a megaphone they're going to get shot at.


----------



## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think I’ll wait until all of them happen - going to be waiting a long time I reckon 😬
		
Click to expand...

Let me know when it's time and I'll pop by and buy the celebratory beers. We've both got a long wait sadly before this becomes something people are gonna let go.. The devil will likely be wearing a woolly hat that day...


----------



## Pin-seeker (Jan 31, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m going to celebrate :-

The end of this thread

The constant going around in circles

The lack of empathy towards other people’s situations

The single mindedness

The arrogance

The despair

The vultures

The idea that it’s a game that someone wins and someone loses

The way this whole process has divided people all over the country

Farage going and hopefully gone for good

The attitude to people who voted a different way

The insults

The derogatory comments
		
Click to expand...

You do realize that you could just have stopped clicking on the thread,and stop commenting on the thread,at any time don’t You? 🤔


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jan 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Let me know when it's time and I'll pop by and buy the celebratory beers. We've both got a long wait sadly before this becomes something people are gonna let go.. The devil will likely be wearing a woolly hat that day...
		
Click to expand...

I think the wait is going to beat us both - may have a little tipple as each one is ticked off


----------



## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its the Armageddon aspect to his posts that lead to very direct responses. That, and in the early days he used to call people thick for voting Leave. Yes, he's dropped the line of Leavers are knuckle draggers, not that I believe he's changed his beliefs in that. For me, he's the Farage of Remain, i.e. an extremist.

I agree with him the Leave will hurt the economy in the early days, and I think Leave isn't the brightest decision for the economy in the short term. But after that no one knows how it will pan out.

As for that right of reply, we all have it and anyone can scroll past any poster, or put them on ignore. But if someone is going to stick their head above the parapet and use a megaphone they're going to get shot at.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on Hobbit agree with every word you've written, I voted remain for many reasons but regardless of my views i can't say what the actual outcome is going to be for me long term let alone any individual in the country. But I won't bemoan leavers for their choice they have their reasons and won the vote so rightly so we're leaving and now we move forward and see where it takes us. Blaming Brexit or others for whatever the outcome is to us individually which is far from known is purely a victim mindset because for some its easier to blame these outside influences at the beginning than to actually realise whether we're in the EU or not its ultimately ourselves that will dictate our future success.


----------



## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think the wait is going to beat us both - may have a little tipple as each one is ticked off
		
Click to expand...

Even I'll probably have retired by that point 😂
Maybe give it a 50% ticked off and we will have a round of golf and a few wee drams.


----------



## IanM (Jan 31, 2020)

My final post in this thread.   I've always said we won't actually be allowed to leave.   Maybe Boris might prove me wrong, I wonder where we'll be actually be in 12 months time?     

Final thought, if the EU is about trade, travel, cooperation, r & d, humanity and peace...  and all the nice stuff we do with most of the rest of the world anyway. 

...why does it need a Parliament, Commissioners, a Judiciary, a currency, a Central Bank, a flag and an anthem?  

work it out, for goodness sake, it isn't difficult.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its the Armageddon aspect to his posts that lead to very direct responses. That, and in the early days he used to call people thick for voting Leave. Yes, he's dropped the line of Leavers are knuckle draggers, not that I believe he's changed his beliefs in that. For me, he's the Farage of Remain, i.e. an extremist.

I agree with him the Leave will hurt the economy in the early days, and I think Leave isn't the brightest decision for the economy in the short term. But after that no one knows how it will pan out.

As for that right of reply, we all have it and anyone can scroll past any poster, or put them on ignore. But if someone is going to stick their head above the parapet and use a megaphone they're going to get shot at.
		
Click to expand...

No poster should feel he’s been abused though, regardless how big the megaphone is.
Disagree, agree, discuss or argue, fine.
Getting personal is wrong and for him to post that he felt he was abused is wrong, regardless of intent.


----------



## Mudball (Jan 31, 2020)

IanM said:



			My final post in this thread.   I've always said we won't actually be allowed to leave.   Maybe Boris might prove me wrong, I wonder where we'll be actually be in 12 months time?    

Final thought, if the EU is about trade, travel, cooperation, r & d, humanity and peace...  and all the nice stuff we do with most of the rest of the world anyway.

...why does it need a Parliament, Commissioners, a Judiciary, a currency, a Central Bank, a flag and an anthem? 

work it out, for goodness sake, it isn't difficult.  

Click to expand...

Because it is more than that... 

To allow you to trade freely, travel freely there is a common currency. Remember the days when you had to carry different money for different countries and the drawer was full of useless coins from all your travels. 

To make that common money happen, you need some common laws made by a parliament that needs a judiciary.  You could do without a flag or maybe some other bits of a white elephant. But you need some bits. 

But EU is more than that.. I did not fight the war but hear it from those who did 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223175366421946369


----------



## chrisd (Jan 31, 2020)

Big night tonight !!!

Transfer deadline 11pm 👍👍


----------



## IanM (Jan 31, 2020)

Dont use travel  and trade as an excuse for Federalism.


Ooops I didnt mean to reply


----------



## Mudball (Jan 31, 2020)

IanM said:



			Dont use travel  and trade as an excuse for Federalism.


Ooops I didnt mean to reply

Click to expand...

True..  Trade is a dirty word when done to you.. but not when you do to others...  that was how the British empire was made...    

(ps: that 'you' want the royal you rather than pointing at you - i guess you understood that but just in case)....   tnx for the reply


----------



## drdel (Jan 31, 2020)

Over 3 years ago when we were offered a choice I decided that the 2007 world crisis and the way Brussels dealt with it showed serious flaws in their policies. It seemed to me they thought by throwing money at the ECB they could stimulate growth. It is a Ponzi solution and 4 years on they have not made any changes other than thinking more centralisation will bring harmonisation but in reality the massive debt is unsustainable and is an anchor to growth; the disparity between members' economies is too wide: Greece was mistreated and their unemployed youth together with those in Spain and Italy pay the price. The EU thought German growth  was unstoppable but it is a one-trick 'manufacturing' pony whose economy was bolstered by the other members getting grants and borrowing to buy German goods and they imagined they could rely on the UK to keep coming to their rescue. They failed to respond the world trade changes and chose protectionism.

The UK's vote to leave was never believed in Brussels and so their tactics were simply to stonewall and play for time in the hope the UK would capitulate. believing their strategy with Greece and Italy would work.  Meanwhile Brussels continues to create unsustainable debt and increase its central budget at a rate exceeding members' growth while, at the same time reducing the NATO spend and security coverage.

I thought then and I still believe the Brussels 'core' is totally fixated on more and more centralisation (like the SNP and Independence) while domestically  members are suffering next to zero growth. Thus my conclusion then was that if the UK continued to belong to the EU political experiment is would need vast sums from the 'rich' UK because they thought we could be soaked and since we have a currency and Bank to aid to their capacity to borrow and release more QE and artificial growth. With these 'federal' changes as a member the UK would have lost the ability to say 'no' meaning our debt would be driven up with budget and borrowing controlled by the Brussels/ECB etc.

I do not regret my decision but I recognise such change will bring benefits and losses but I'm convinced that for my grandchildren and their peers the UK will enjoy a more stable economy and  better quality of life without being dragged down by the blatant and feckless fiscal mismanagement of Brussels.

QED


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## PieMan (Jan 31, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m going to celebrate :-

The end of this thread

The constant going around in circles

The lack of empathy towards other people’s situations

The single mindedness

The arrogance

The despair

The vultures

The idea that it’s a game that someone wins and someone loses

The way this whole process has divided people all over the country

Farage going and hopefully gone for good

The attitude to people who voted a different way

The insults

The derogatory comments
		
Click to expand...

11 of those points should be posted in the football thread........😉


----------



## 3offTheTee (Jan 31, 2020)

OK PM sure there WILL be a dispute over the 2 you have left out.

Can we have a vote please for the 2 or does anybody think 3 or  more?


----------



## Sweep (Jan 31, 2020)

Personally I think we should have put our foot down and insisted that we left at midnight our time, not theirs. Yes, it would have meant we had to stay in one hour longer, but at least all those who committed to dry January could have celebrated with a drink the minute we left . 😀 🍺


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m going to celebrate :-

The end of this thread

The constant going around in circles

The lack of empathy towards other people’s situations

The single mindedness

The arrogance

The despair

The vultures

The idea that it’s a game that someone wins and someone loses

The way this whole process has divided people all over the country

Farage going and hopefully gone for good

The attitude to people who voted a different way

The insults

The derogatory comments
		
Click to expand...

I hope you are including yourself in your condemnations as you fit into them as much as anyone else on this thread.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Because it is more than that...

To allow you to trade freely, travel freely there is a common currency. Remember the days when you had to carry different money for different countries and the drawer was full of useless coins from all your travels.

To make that common money happen, you need some common laws made by a parliament that needs a judiciary.  You could do without a flag or maybe some other bits of a white elephant. But you need some bits.

But EU is more than that.. I did not fight the war but hear it from those who did

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223175366421946369

Click to expand...

Without wanting to belittle these people the video seems to miss the point.  We are not leaving Europe, we are not saying goodbye to the people that live there, their culture, their countries, we are not walking away from them.  We are changing our trading arrangements and leaving an organisation that has decided to move in a direction that no longer suits our membership.  Farewell EU, 'Europe' we are still very much your friends and neighbours.

Peace, Prosperity and Friendship with all Nations.


----------



## spongebob59 (Jan 31, 2020)




----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2020)

spongebob59 said:








Click to expand...

Fog in the Channel. Europe isolated.


----------



## chrisd (Jan 31, 2020)

............... and breathe  👍👍


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## Wolf (Jan 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			............... and breathe  👍👍
		
Click to expand...

Quite impressive hearing fireworks signal the end of the transfer window.. Bit of a shock though as its been a bang average one imagine what will happen if someone makes a big signing at the end of summer deadline 😂


----------



## backwoodsman (Feb 1, 2020)

You know what - today doesn't seem any different to yesterday ...


----------



## ger147 (Feb 1, 2020)

First Saturday morning being free after 47 years of oppression and the golf course is shut.

Bloody Brexit!!!


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 1, 2020)

How comes the coffee in McDonalds is still the same price. 😳
Still crap though


----------



## ScienceBoy (Feb 1, 2020)

So far having a terrible day.

Been woken up crazy early
Chased a spider around the living room
Stubbed my toe
Bitten too much nail off my thumb

I wish we had never voted to leave the EU


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## MegaSteve (Feb 1, 2020)

IanM said:



			My final post in this thread.   I've always said we won't actually be allowed to leave.   Maybe Boris might prove me wrong, I wonder where we'll be actually be in 12 months time?   

Final thought, if the EU is about trade, travel, cooperation, r & d, humanity and peace...  and all the nice stuff we do with most of the rest of the world anyway.

...why does it need a Parliament, Commissioners, a Judiciary, a currency, a Central Bank, a flag and an anthem?

work it out, for goodness sake, it isn't difficult.  

Click to expand...

Best post in this thread by a country mile ...


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 1, 2020)

And, I hope everyone has been watching Ed Balls in Euroland...
The penny seems to be dropping accross Europe...
We are subject to too many layers of bureaucracy...


----------



## Mudball (Feb 1, 2020)

Out at 47... Yet another English batsman falls short of scoring a half century... typical


----------



## Kellfire (Feb 1, 2020)

__ https://www.facebook.com/533592055/posts/10156701376752056



I take it all back. Wayne has convinced me.


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 1, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			So far having a terrible day.

Been woken up crazy early
Chased a spider around the living room
Stubbed my toe
Bitten too much nail off my thumb

I wish we had never voted to leave the EU
		
Click to expand...

important things first
did you get the spider.


----------



## ScienceBoy (Feb 1, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			important things first
did you get the spider.
		
Click to expand...

Of course not, it’s lurking in a dark corner threatening me with WTO rules.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 1, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			Of course not, it’s lurking in a dark corner threatening me with WTO rules.
		
Click to expand...

😂😂😂👍


----------



## Wolf (Feb 1, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			important things first
did you get the spider.
		
Click to expand...

Id have left it in the room to roam because all the while theirs a spider in there my Mrs and kids wouldn't come in the room, I could happily sit in there with my little mate 8 legs having a peaceful day 😂


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			Of course not, it’s lurking in a dark corner threatening me with WTO rules.
		
Click to expand...

I would hunt him down and set him free. 

My opinion is only advisory though.


----------



## ScienceBoy (Feb 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I would hunt him down and set him free.

My opinion is only advisory though.
		
Click to expand...

I actually followed the other advice and used it to give me 30 mins to relax.


----------



## spongebob59 (Feb 1, 2020)

https://www.iaindale.com/articles/the-best-case-for-brexit-youll-ever-read


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Feb 1, 2020)

Kellfire said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/533592055/posts/10156701376752056



I take it all back. Wayne has convinced me.
		
Click to expand...

Goodness me, you have to admire the interviewer for keeping a straight face.
Looking at pictures of Brexiters celebration in general it is difficult to spot anyone under 50 years old.


----------



## MegaSteve (Feb 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Looking at pictures of Brexiters celebration in general it is difficult to spot anyone under 50 years old.
		
Click to expand...

Think you need a trip to specsavers ...


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223392437923610624🤦‍♂️


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223536392162152448


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223392437923610624🤦‍♂️


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223536392162152448

Click to expand...

Give it a break, I thought we had got over calling people thick for their voting preferences.
Its too easy, pick out someone who's obviously got learning difficulties then try to make them look stupid.  Then some cretins put it on their social media to give the impression everyone who voted for Brexit is thick 🙄


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2020)




----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Give it a break, I thought we had got over calling people thick for their voting preferences.
Its too easy, pick out someone who's obviously *got learning difficulties then try to make them look stupid.*  Then some cretins put it on their social media to give the impression everyone who voted for Brexit is thick 🙄
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but when was it decided that they “obviously have learning difficulties” - is that the case of the thousands of videos all over social media with people responding in same vein ? You can keep denying it but there is clearly many who were sucked in by many lies and no doubt on both sides but now it’s the promises of Johnson and his team to bring all the good back to the UK - everyone is now expecting all the laws to go back , remove all the European Laws , Industry to come booming back , the NHS to get a big funding jncrease , multiple trade deals for the benefit of the UK without having to sell out.

Right now the UK still need to abide by E.U. laws etc without having a say in them

It’s now time to deliver and quickly- if things don’t turn out well it’s not going to be long before the calls to go back to the E.U. start and this time on their terms.

Country has a huge divide - one side needs to stand up now and show us all how great it is out of the EU


----------



## bobmac (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s now time to deliver and quickly- if things don’t turn out well it’s not going to be long before the calls to go back to the E.U. start and this time on their terms.

Country has a huge divide - one side needs to stand up now and show us all how great it is out of the EU
		
Click to expand...

We've only been out 14:42 mins


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			We've only been out 14:42 mins
		
Click to expand...

Interesting thought that "one side has to stand up and show us all how great it is outside the EU..." sounds awfully petulant to me.


----------



## Imurg (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Country has a huge divide - one side needs to stand up now and show us all how great it is out of the EU
		
Click to expand...

And the other side needs to do their bit to make it work.
We're out
It's time to make the best of it
If both sides don't get behind it then it will fail.
Life goes on. 
People need to stop arguing/stressing about not getting their way and get on with their lives.
Good things and bad things have been happening to this country since it began and they'll continue to happen whether were in the EU or not.
We've overcome desperate times and enjoyed good times
That wont change.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			We've only been out 14:42 mins
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I’m not sure the point ? 


Hobbit said:



			Interesting thought that "one side has to stand up and show us all how great it is outside the EU..." sounds awfully petulant to me.
		
Click to expand...

Not at all - we have been sold the vision that we can be great outside the E.U. on our own - the people that sold that vision to others are the ones that need to bring the reality to it it - been lots of talk and promises over the last 3 years , is it not now time for those words to come to fruition over the next 11 months ? 


Imurg said:



			And the other side needs to do their bit to make it work.
We're out
It's time to make the best of it
If both sides don't get behind it then it will fail.
Life goes on.
People need to stop arguing/stressing about not getting their way and get on with their lives.
Good things and bad things have been happening to this country since it began and they'll continue to happen whether were in the EU or not.
We've overcome desperate times and enjoyed good times
That wont change.
		
Click to expand...

We are talking government here btw - they are the ones who have the ability to make things work - the common folk will go to work , earn their money , feed their families and rinse repeat - the same as what most of us have done over the past ten years - the only people that can have an affect on that is our government - the ball in in their court and Boris Johnson is holding the racquet - he wanted this ( well he didn’t at first and then turned when he saw a chance to further his career ) so it’s up to him to drive it on. 

The people could only vote one way or the other - and based on the information given , as can be seen a lot of people now have high expectations of the future and the expect the people they voted for to deliver that. 

People will constantly argue or debate everything regardless of is being in the E.U. or not - that’s just life - fantasy land if people are expecting others to just stop talking about it. It has the potential to get even worse of the months/years.


----------



## bobmac (Feb 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			And the other side needs to do their bit to make it work.
We're out
It's time to make the best of it
If both sides don't get behind it then it will fail.
Life goes on.
People need to stop arguing/stressing about not getting their way and get on with their lives.
Good things and bad things have been happening to this country since it began and they'll continue to happen whether were in the EU or not.
We've overcome desperate times and enjoyed good times
That wont change.
		
Click to expand...

Some people see a silver lining, an exciting new opportunity and a glass half full.
Others unfortunately don't.
It must be terrible to always look for the worst case scenario.

So to all those who tried to thwart Brexit, unfortunately it didn't work so why not channel your energies into making a brighter future and healing the divide you keep reminding the country about.
The alternative is you want Brexit to be a disaster just so you can say ''I told you so''. I hope that's not the case.


----------



## drdel (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I’m not sure the point ? 


Not at all - we have been sold the vision that we can be great outside the E.U. on our own - the people that sold that vision to others are the ones that need to bring the reality to it it - been lots of talk and promises over the last 3 years , is it not now time for those words to come to fruition over the next 11 months ? 


We are talking government here btw - they are the ones who have the ability to make things work - the common folk will go to work , earn their money , feed their families and rinse repeat - the same as what most of us have done over the past ten years - the only people that can have an affect on that is our government - the ball in in their court and Boris Johnson is holding the racquet - he wanted this ( well he didn’t at first and then turned when he saw a chance to further his career ) so it’s up to him to drive it on. 

The people could only vote one way or the other - and based on the information given , as can be seen a lot of people now have high expectations of the future and the expect the people they voted for to deliver that. 

People will constantly argue or debate everything regardless of is being in the E.U. or not - that’s just life - fantasy land if people are expecting others to just stop talking about it. It has the potential to get even worse of the months/years.
		
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I am sorry to be rude but I think that you are being daft because by hanging onto the past 40 years you are failing to recognise that the EU's future path is based on unsustainable debt and  protectionism. In the modern word that is an outdated strategy which will damage the major EU members' ability to respond.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Some people see a silver lining, an exciting new opportunity and a glass half full.
Others unfortunately don't.
It must be terrible to always look for the worst case scenario.

So to all those who tried to thwart Brexit, unfortunately it didn't work so why not channel your energies into making a brighter future and healing the divide you keep reminding the country about.
The alternative is you want Brexit to be a disaster just so you can say ''I told you so''. I hope that's not the case.
		
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I very much doubt anyone wants anything to fail - that would be a case of cutting your nose off , I certainly don’t want to see the UK fail because it will affect us very directly and certainly I hope there is no “I told you so from either side” 

People can only form an opinion on what they see can happen in the future - no one knows 100% what’s going to happen regardless of any “projections” - I hope it’s a roaring success and on a personal basis we replace the lost contacts with bigger ones - but if it doesn’t work then it’s going to be a case of swallowing pride and looking for alternatives and that may mean rejoining the E.U. - I hope it doesn’t come to that because we would have lost all our vetoes etc 

As for “thwarting” Brexit - only people who had the ability to thwart anything were the MP’s - they had the power - we just had a single vote 

In regards the divide - countries been divided for a long time - north and south , rich and poor , Tory and labour , England and Scotland or Wales or NI - divides are always going to be there regardless of what happens right now or in the future. The only time the UK joins is when attacked during war ( so not since WW2 ) - everything is all now on a personal basis , everything is all about the self and very much less about fellow human beings.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I very much doubt anyone wants anything to fail - that would be a case of cutting your nose off , I certainly don’t want to see the UK fail because it will affect us very directly and certainly I hope there is no “I told you so from either side”

People can only form an opinion on what they see can happen in the future - no one knows 100% what’s going to happen regardless of any “projections” - I hope it’s a roaring success and on a personal basis we replace the lost contacts with bigger ones - but if it doesn’t work then it’s going to be a case of swallowing pride and looking for alternatives and that may mean rejoining the E.U. - I hope it doesn’t come to that because we would have lost all our vetoes etc

As for “thwarting” Brexit - only people who had the ability to thwart anything were the MP’s - they had the power - we just had a single vote

In regards the divide - countries been divided for a long time - north and south , rich and poor , Tory and labour , England and Scotland or Wales or NI - divides are always going to be there regardless of what happens right now or in the future. The only time the UK joins is when attacked during war ( so not since WW2 ) - everything is all now on a personal basis , everything is all about the self and very much less about fellow human beings.
		
Click to expand...


Ok, what have you done with the real LP? The above is as good as anything you've ever posted by a country mile.

 You are right, its now up to the govt of the day, irrespective of the individual 'leanings' of any MP to make the very best of what's in front of them. And the referendum voters from both sides will hold them to account at the ballot box if they don't deliver.


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## bobmac (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			the only people that can have an affect on that is our government
		
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I don't agree.
If Johnny foreigner investor is looking for somewhere to invest and he sees Britain still squabbling about Brexit months later, he could be excused for taking his money elsewhere.
If people used their social media to show a united Britain, Johnny foreiner might be tempted to invest.
So by getting rid of the negativity and doom and gloom stuff on twitter/FB/Instagram etc, the public can make a difference.

The BBC interview with Stacey and Tracey above was chosen deliberately to show leavers in a certain light. 
Very poor from the BBC

''It has the potential to get even worse of the months/years.''

See what I mean about worst case scenario?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I don't agree.
If Johnny foreigner investor is looking for somewhere to invest and he sees Britain still squabbling about Brexit months later, he could be excused for taking his money elsewhere.
If people used their social media to show a united Britain, Johnny foreiner might be tempted to invest.
So by getting rid of the negativity and doom and gloom stuff on twitter/FB/Instagram etc, the public can make a difference.
		
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You really think that “Johnny foreigner” who is looking for invest will care about how people interact on social media ?!!!! 

They will be looking to invest based on what profit they could gain - financial decisions and also how the UK on a business level with its neighbours. 




			The BBC interview with Stacey and Tracey above was chosen deliberately to show leavers in a certain light.
Very poor from the BBC
		
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Chosen by who exactly ? It was live and multiple broadcast companies were there asking many questions - all the clips are out there , have a watch ? There is one that I can’t post on here from an Irish company who was presenting live and some nice Englishmen decided to shout out some lovely comments.
These are from people who “won” 




			''It has the potential to get even worse of the months/years.''

See what I mean about worst case scenario?
		
Click to expand...


Many scenarios out there - would be daft not to understand that things have the potential to get worse over the next coming months and years.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

Foreign investment into the UK.

Rather than look at Brexit as Armageddon, have a look at the foreign investment trends/values.

1) Investment from the US in the last 2 years has sky rocketed.
2) Investment from the EU has remained the same, on average, for the last 6 years, although 2 years ago year saw a massive hike it dropped back to previous levels - it hasn't gone down.
3) Investment from Asia has continued to rise exponentially since 2014.
4) Investment from the rest of the world has continued to rise.

The drop in investment from the EU 2 years ago has been more than covered by the massive investments from the US. All this while investment from elsewhere has continued to rise.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2020)




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## Dando (Feb 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:









Click to expand...

Absolutely clueless 😂🤣


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:









Click to expand...

Give it a break, I thought we had got over calling people thick for their voting preferences.
Its too easy, pick out someone who's obviously got learning difficulties then try to make them look stupid.  Then some cretins put it on their social media to give the impression everyone who voted against Brexit is thick 🙄


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## harpo_72 (Feb 1, 2020)

Let’s just hope expectations are met .. and be done with it


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Give it a break, I thought we had got over calling people thick for their voting preferences.
Its too easy, pick out someone who's obviously got learning difficulties then try to make them look stupid.  Then some cretins put it on their social media to give the impression everyone who voted against Brexit is thick 🙄
		
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Just showing you how pathetic it is putting up videos like this. 
Maybe my next post should be to see how many of your bucket list you have transgressed yourself.  😄


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Right now the UK still need to abide by E.U. laws etc without having a say in them*

Click to expand...

Some would argue there is little difference to being in then; having a say means nothing when the other 27 aren't listening to you.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 1, 2020)

Number one priority is NOT to sell out the fishing folk for a short term gain...


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## Mudball (Feb 1, 2020)

Last night euromillion.. UK won 350m ... set for life now ..


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Number one priority is NOT to sell out the fishing folk for a short term gain...
		
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Is that really the number one priority ?

Surely the number one priority is gaining valuable trade deals with the EU and then others that we need to cover the ones we lost.

The fishing folk remember were sold out in the 80’s by Thatcher and of course the British firms who sold their quota to Spanish firms and they certainly seem to be able to catch their fair share at the moment


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Just showing you how pathetic it is putting up videos like this.
Maybe my next post should be to see how many of your bucket list you have transgressed yourself.  😄
		
Click to expand...

You crack on - most of them cover you

The “video” you put up was from how long ago and from a young girl who doesn’t understand it all - no shame in that and I suspect she has a long time left in here life to learn 

The multiple interviews the broadcasters last run along the same theme - yet your first suggestion was that the people they interviewed on live telly were suffering from learning difficulties 🤦‍♂️ - you are totally closed off to the clear idea that there are people out there who really didn’t understand the process and were sucked in by the main “tag lines” “buses” “ukip” and red rag headlines - they jumped on things like “get our country back” etc - 

how much that had an affect I have no idea but a lot were sold a vision of the future - and many from areas that have suffered over the decades from the loss of industries etc etc and instead of looking at our own successive governments for blame they listened to people like Farage who put all the blame for the Uk ills on the EU - so soon they won’t be in the chain and If these industries and jobs don’t return who will they blame then - 

let’s hope they haven’t been sold false hope and dreams and the UK government continues to provide these areas with the fundings they got from the EU grants.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You crack on - most of them cover you

The “video” you put up was from how long ago and from a young girl who doesn’t understand it all - no shame in that and I suspect she has a long time left in here life to learn

The multiple interviews the broadcasters last run along the same theme - yet your first suggestion was that the people they interviewed on live telly were suffering from learning difficulties 🤦‍♂️ - you are totally closed off to the clear idea that there are people out there who really didn’t understand the process and were sucked in by the main “tag lines” “buses” “ukip” and red rag headlines - they jumped on things like “get our country back” etc -

how much that had an affect I have no idea but a lot were sold a vision of the future - and many from areas that have suffered over the decades from the loss of industries etc etc and instead of looking at our own successive governments for blame they listened to people like Farage who put all the blame for the Uk ills on the EU - so soon they won’t be in the chain and If these industries and jobs don’t return who will they blame then -

let’s hope they haven’t been sold false hope and dreams and the UK government continues to provide these areas with the fundings they got from the EU grants.
		
Click to expand...

There's mileage on both sides of the argument, and pointing fingers at successive govts isn't too far from the truth. But have a look at the EU's own rules for grants and loans, then look at their own investigation into the loans and grants they provided to Jag/LR for them to open a plan in the Czech Republic. Personally, I think the EU totally broke the rules but hey, they carried out an investigation and said they didn't - the Police policing themselves - yeah right.

You could, if you are that fussed, have a look at the grants and loans, and the carbon off setting payments, Tata Steel got when they closed the plant on Teesside and opened a new one in the Netherlands.

Truthfully, successive govts have badly let down the north but so to has the EU, irrespective of whatever propaganda the EU and Remain threw out there. #Remainvoter


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## drdel (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:
*Right now the UK still need to abide by E.U. laws etc without having a say in them*

Yup you're right but one of the issues I have with the EU is that it is the unelected crowd in Brussels who decide on the 'Law(s)' to be brought forward for 'rubber'stamping by the elected Parliament members who may have a veto but little else. I'd guess that bringing a 'new' law, that's not already in-train, would take more that the remaining period of our membership.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There's mileage on both sides of the argument, and pointing fingers at successive govts isn't too far from the truth. But have a look at the EU's own rules for grants and loans, then look at their own investigation into the loans and grants they provided to Jag/LR for them to open a plan in the Czech Republic. Personally, I think the EU totally broke the rules but hey, they carried out an investigation and said they didn't - the Police policing themselves - yeah right.

You could, if you are that fussed, have a look at the grants and loans, and the carbon off setting payments, Tata Steel got when they closed the plant on Teesside and opened a new one in the Netherlands.

Truthfully, successive govts have badly let down the north but so to has the EU, irrespective of whatever propaganda the EU and Remain threw out there. #Remainvoter
		
Click to expand...

There is no doubt at all that the EU are far from guilt free with their desire to “balance” things across their members especially when countries don’t help themselves first and there is a lot the EU need to do to learn from mistakes made. The car industry is still huge around the UK but I do fear for it unless there is a good trade deal. 

Tata steels issues - well prob started way back when privatisation started but then that’s the same with all the areas that were under control of the government. A lot of blame of both sides

But one side has now gone - so no more hiding from our government, Faith has been put in them to bring the good life to all in the UK and not just the south


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## drdel (Feb 1, 2020)

^^^ Its time to get worried 

Looks like the thread 'may' be moving towards a sensible debate


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no doubt at all that the EU are far from guilt free with their desire to “balance” things across their members especially when countries don’t help themselves first and there is a lot the EU need to do to learn from mistakes made. The car industry is still huge around the UK but I do fear for it unless there is a good trade deal.

Tata steels issues - well prob started way back when privatisation started but then that’s the same with all the areas that were under control of the government. A lot of blame of both sides

But one side has now gone - so no more hiding from our government, Faith has been put in them to bring the good life to all in the UK and not just the south
		
Click to expand...

One of the things people forget is that subsidies by EU member states to businesses within their own country are almost impossible - the rules don't allow it. But the EU, and member states, can entice companies to set up in a country. The EU rule(s) don't allow poaching of businesses from one country to another..... Tata got thousands of millions, £664m just for the carbon offsetting by closing a plant, to set up in the Netherlands.

What JLR and Tata have done isn't the fault of the UK govts of the day. I'll lay that one firmly at the EU's doorstep, and that's why in the steel towns in the NE the Leave had great support - and I absolutely support them in that, even as a Remainer. As you say the EU aren't guilt free, and have gone too far in moving industry around the EU member states.

Just a quick edit. Forget the car industry aspect of the debate, or at least view it carefully. Car manufacturers globally are all suffering. In the US the economy has been growing at around 15%-20% yet the car industry has shrunk by 17%.


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## drdel (Feb 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			One of the things people forget is that subsidies by EU member states to businesses within their own country are almost impossible - the rules don't allow it. But the EU, and member states, can entice companies to set up in a country. The EU rule(s) don't allow poaching of businesses from one country to another..... Tata got thousands of millions, £664m just for the carbon offsetting by closing a plant, to set up in the Netherlands.

What JLR and Tata have done isn't the fault of the UK govts of the day. I'll lay that one firmly at the EU's doorstep, and that's why in the steel towns in the NE the Leave had great support - and I absolutely support them in that, even as a Remainer. As you say the EU aren't guilt free, and *have gone too far in moving industry around the EU member states.*

Just a quick edit. Forget the car industry aspect of the debate, or at least view it carefully. Car manufacturers globally are all suffering. In the US the economy has been growing at around 15%-20% yet the car industry has shrunk by 17%.
		
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I agree. On the face of it, spreading 'wealth' across the member states seems a good social policy/idea. Unfortunately the economies of the 27 are too diverse and thus the consequence has led to a chase to the lowest common denominator and the attempt to increase internal market demand through the borrowing. Then there is the cost of running the 'centre' which has dragged money out of the system.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			I agree. On the face of it, spreading 'wealth' across the member states seems a good social policy/idea. Unfortunately the economies of the 27 are too diverse and thus the consequence has led to a chase to the lowest common denominator and the attempt to increase internal market demand through the borrowing. Then there is the cost of running the 'centre' which has dragged money out of the system.
		
Click to expand...

There are more considerations to the Brexit than I as an American ever realized.


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## drdel (Feb 1, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			There are more considerations to the Brexit than I as an American ever realized.
		
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But a lot less twist and turns than 'impeachment'


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			But a lot less twist and turns than 'impeachment' 

Click to expand...

The current proceedings on that issue are and have been since the beginning a disgrace.

We are a very polarized nation, and our 233 year old democracy shows its age in comparison to more modern parliamentary systems in otherwise much older nations.
Our bicameral system doesn't include a House of Lords which is essentially a bar open after hours. I wish that  we had that instead of what we actually have.
That's a Senate which, due to our federal system, vastly over-represents the most socially regressive elements of our society.

The American Republic is quite literally in existential danger.


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## Old Skier (Feb 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			But a lot less twist and turns than 'impeachment' 

Click to expand...

Same rules thought. The bully boys do what they want


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Same rules though. The bully boys do what they want 

Click to expand...

I have to agree.


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## Old Skier (Feb 1, 2020)

Shame that some remainers are reverting to type all over social media.


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## drdel (Feb 1, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			The current proceedings on that issue are and have been since the beginning a disgrace.

We are a very polarized nation, and our 233 year old democracy shows its age in comparison to more modern parliamentary systems in otherwise much older nations.
Our bicameral system doesn't include a House of Lords which is essentially a bar open after hours. I wish that  we had that instead of what we actually have.
That's a Senate which, due to our federal system, vastly over-represents the most socially regressive elements of our society.

The American Republic is quite literally in existential danger.
		
Click to expand...

Pretty much like everywhere else - follow the money and you might find the truth.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You crack on - most of them cover you

The “video” you put up was from how long ago and from a young girl who doesn’t understand it all - no shame in that and I suspect she has a long time left in here life to learn

The multiple interviews the broadcasters last run along the same theme - yet your first suggestion was that the people they interviewed on live telly were suffering from learning difficulties 🤦‍♂️ - you are totally closed off to the clear idea that there are people out there who really didn’t understand the process and were sucked in by the main “tag lines” “buses” “ukip” and red rag headlines - they jumped on things like “get our country back” etc -

how much that had an affect I have no idea but a lot were sold a vision of the future - and many from areas that have suffered over the decades from the loss of industries etc etc and instead of looking at our own successive governments for blame they listened to people like Farage who put all the blame for the Uk ills on the EU - so soon they won’t be in the chain and If these industries and jobs don’t return who will they blame then -

let’s hope they haven’t been sold false hope and dreams and the UK government continues to provide these areas with the fundings they got from the EU grants.
		
Click to expand...

The video was simply to show you how pathetic it is to use such rubbish to portray people with a different view as stupid and uneducated.  

You do reaiIse the UK has been a net contributor to the EU and as such any grants they received was only some of their own money coming back.

You talk as if the UK governments while we were EU members produced a land of milk and honey and now we've left  they have to do better somehow.  Whether were in or out we will only do well as a country by business/industry being effective and successful, our government needs to assist and not hamper them.    We lost industries while members of the EU but I dont blame all of it on the them, most of it has been caused by lack of investment in modern plant and equipment and many years of union intransigence.   A nations wealth will never be decided by being a member of a protectionist union of countries ruled by a monolith civil service.    We now have a new opportunity to better our lot and hopefully we can do it despite the defeatests and bitter whingers who will never be content with anything outside the EU.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 1, 2020)

I assume "remainers" are the people who wanted to stay in, right?

In diverse nations like the United States and the United Kingdom, people have best interests that actually don't coincide.
I can understand how Brexit would seem beneficial to some people in England, for example, while causing issues like re-instating an Ireland-Northern Ireland border.

Our polarization is quite beyond that level. 
People with Coastal Values and Middle American Values don't merely disagree.
They've come to truly loathe each other.
That's why I believe the American republic is in existential stress.

As inconceivable as it may seem now, I don't think that partition is out of the question in a generation or two.
It happened in the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia
Scotland and Quebec have both had very close separation votes.
It seems to be the way of the future.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The video was simply to show you how pathetic it is to use such rubbish to portray people with a different view as stupid and uneducated.
		
Click to expand...

The videos show that many people didn’t have a clue what they were voting for ( something which always gets dismissed ) and also people voted purely to get rid of immigrants ( something that always gets dismissed )




			You do reaiIse the UK has been a net contributor to the EU and as such any grants they received was only some of their own money coming back.
		
Click to expand...

You keep saying that as if it makes it all better ? 

Eu grants forced the UK into putting money into areas that previously they weren’t bothered about because they were outside the London financial hub areas - 

why did these areas have to go down the line of EU grants - because their own government did nothing for them - areas under “managed decline” , areas left to rot with no investment from their own government - well now they need to fully fund all these projects that the EU grants covered - should be ok , plenty of money back in the coffers to go around the whole of the UK 




			You talk as if the UK governments while we were EU members produced a land of milk and honey and now we've left  they have to do better somehow.
		
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Do they not have to better then ? Is that not a critical reason for leaving ? To do better on our own. 




			Whether were in or out we will only do well as a country by business/industry being effective and successful, our government needs to assist and not hamper them.    We lost industries while members of the EU but I dont blame all of it on the them, most of it has been caused by lack of investment in modern plant and equipment and many years of union intransigence.   A nations wealth will never be decided by being a member of a protectionist union of countries ruled by a monolith civil service.    We now have a new opportunity to better our lot and hopefully we can do it despite the defeatests and bitter whingers who will never be content with anything outside the EU.
		
Click to expand...

“Bitter whingers” - For someone who very quick to point fingers at others for using derogatory comments you are the first to use them yourself - maybe before you start  to ask for comments to stop you should being a hypocrite and look in the mirror and see all the issues you yourself have caused on here - of course you won’t , you arrogance doesn’t allow it. Don’t think there is anything worthwhile for you left to say now.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The videos show that many people didn’t have a clue what they were voting for ( something which always gets dismissed ) and also people voted purely to get rid of immigrants ( something that always gets dismissed )



You keep saying that as if it makes it all better ?

Eu grants forced the UK into putting money into areas that previously they weren’t bothered about because they were outside the London financial hub areas -

why did these areas have to go down the line of EU grants - because their own government did nothing for them - areas under “managed decline” , areas left to rot with no investment from their own government - well now they need to fully fund all these projects that the EU grants covered - should be ok , plenty of money back in the coffers to go around the whole of the UK


Do they not have to better then ? Is that not a critical reason for leaving ? To do better on our own.



“Bitter whingers” - For someone who very quick to point fingers at others for using derogatory comments you are the first to use them yourself - maybe before you start  to ask for comments to stop you should being a hypocrite and look in the mirror and see all the issues you yourself have caused on here - of course you won’t , you arrogance doesn’t allow it. Don’t think there is anything worthwhile for you left to say now.
		
Click to expand...

But what is the metric for knowing what a person voted for? Many people decided to vote on a very narrow criteria, e.g. immigration. Is that wrong? It might be against our own metric but not their own. And that's what politics is about, an opinion. Some may well have been sucked in by some of the lies (on both sides) but I'd hazard a guess they only saw it as an affirmation of their own, already, formed beliefs.

The did the EU 'force' the govt of the day to invest in certain areas, or negate managed decline, is one neither you, I or anyone can prove. Hanging our respective hats on it only highlight our own bias. But the litmus test for that is, bluntly, prove that is the case. We can't...

Bitter whingers or jubilant partying Leavers; is there anything actually wrong in being either. Both sides invested enormous energy and passion in their cause and, rightfully, will show a lot of emotion in the outcome. Respect it. When someone stops showing passion they no longer care.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But what is the metric for knowing what a person voted for? Many people decided to vote on a very narrow criteria, e.g. immigration. Is that wrong? It might be against our own metric but not their own. And that's what politics is about, an opinion. Some may well have been sucked in by some of the lies (on both sides) but I'd hazard a guess they only saw it as an affirmation of their own, already, formed beliefs.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not wrong at all - it was just dismissed as a reason constantly when it was mentioned



			The did the EU 'force' the govt of the day to invest in certain areas, or negate managed decline, is one neither you, I or anyone can prove. Hanging our respective hats on it only highlight our own bias. But the litmus test for that is, bluntly, prove that is the case. We can't...
		
Click to expand...

Liverpool - an area left to decline by Tory gorvnments , same with areas in Wales - no financial investment from the UK government before the EU grants etc - why were these areas ignored by governments ? Because they didn’t imo provide the neccesary profit for the UK ( mainly Tory ) governments.




			Bitter whingers or jubilant partying Leavers; is there anything actually wrong in being either. Both sides invested enormous energy and passion in their cause and, rightfully, will show a lot of emotion in the outcome. Respect it. When someone stops showing passion they no longer care.
		
Click to expand...

It’s more the pure hypocritical nature of someone constantly complaining about people judging others in regards how they voted and also about people using derogatory comments when the poster themselves has been one of the biggest culprits

The whole EU debate has been a very interesting one - i learnt a lot from what I have read from some people but two people have ruined the whole debate time and time again on here - SILH and Socket Rocket and it’s a shame because I have no doubt they had valid points in tbe middle of some of their posts but unfortunately the constant going over and over again with the arrogant responses drowned it out

Maybe it’s time to close the thread and look at debating the future now

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-51341735

😢🤦‍♂️


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## Papas1982 (Feb 1, 2020)




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## Papas1982 (Feb 1, 2020)

Not sure why the score fo my mate has attached. But this was the greeting at the course. 

Now I was pro brexit for work reasons, but this doesn't exactly help the image of golf clubs full. Of old racist men 😂😂


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Liverpool - an area left to decline by Tory governments , same with areas in Wales - no financial investment from the UK government before the EU grants etc - why were these areas ignored by governments ? Because they didn’t imo provide the neccesary profit for the UK ( mainly Tory ) governments.
		
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I saw first hand how Liverpool changed from 2003 to 2009, i lived right in the heart of the city for good chunks of a 4 year period as a student. It was amazing!


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			I saw first hand how Liverpool changed from 2003 to 2009, i lived right in the heart of the city for good chunks of a 4 year period as a student. It was amazing!
		
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But the UK joined the EU in 1973... I lived within commuting distance to Liverpool through the 70's. Though anecdotal I well remember the strikes at Vauxhall and the docks. A huge amount of the managed decline was 'led' by the unions. Businesses closed because the canker of extreme unionism spread. The govr didn't run those businesses, they were privately owned. Are successive govts to blame for their demise? 

Seriously, the "docker's tanner" was a huge joke around that time. I also remember, vaguely, Sir Geoffrey Howe's comments, he was in Thatcher's Cabinet, that Liverpool should be left to sink. Hesletine and Thatcher ripped him a new one.

I'd seriously argue that there is a reality gap between the stories handed down on grandma's knee about what the Tories did to Liverpool and what reality actually is. Yes, Tory govts have always looked after Tory constituencies but, equally, I can remember Blair winning Sedgefield in the NE and the difference that made.


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But the UK joined the EU in 1973
		
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I know nothing of Liverpool 1973-2003, but it was a very different city by 2009. When I arrived it felt neglected and left behind. In 2009 it was an amazing place for a city break.

I will say right now, other than the name "capital of culture" I know nothing about who funded the change and I could not use it in any argument for or against the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not wrong at all - it was just dismissed as a reason constantly when it was mentioned


Liverpool - an area left to decline by Tory gorvnments , same with areas in Wales - no financial investment from the UK government before the EU grants etc - why were these areas ignored by governments ? Because they didn’t imo provide the neccesary profit for the UK ( mainly Tory ) governments.



It’s more the pure hypocritical nature of someone constantly complaining about people judging others in regards how they voted and also about people using derogatory comments when the poster themselves has been one of the biggest culprits

The whole EU debate has been a very interesting one - i learnt a lot from what I have read from some people but two people have ruined the whole debate time and time again on here - SILH and Socket Rocket and it’s a shame because I have no doubt they had valid points in tbe middle of some of their posts but unfortunately the constant going over and over again with the arrogant responses drowned it out

Maybe it’s time to close the thread and look at debating the future now

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-51341735

😢🤦‍♂️
		
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You seem ignorant on the way EU grants work.  People dont get a sudden huge bung of cash out the blue from the EU  because they think it might come on handy in a local area.  The local authorities have to make up plans and apply for funding, if approved they get around 50% of the funding.  The 50% from the EU is (as i have explained)our own money anyhow, so we pay for all of it.

Regarding your comments on Posters ruining the thread then by all means point your finger at me if it comforts you but I think its more due to the fact you have a need to portray yourself as some kind of saintimonious arbitration service while in fact thats so ironic its side splitting.

You will no doubt continue your normal method of posting diatribes of verbal dhiareah in an attempt to wear the other person down but I have nothing else to hear from you on this subject so carry on with the twaddle as I am just not interested in it.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem ignorant on the way EU grants work.  People dont get a sudden huge bung of cash out the blue from the EU  because they think it might come on handy in a local area.  The local authorities have to make up plans and apply for funding, if approved they get around 50% of the funding.  The 50% from the EU is (as i have explained)our own money anyhow, so we pay for all of it.

Regarding your comments on Posters ruining the thread then by all means point your finger at me if it comforts you but I think its more due to the fact you have a need to portray yourself as some kind of saintimonious arbitration service while in fact thats so ironic its side splitting.

You will no doubt continue your normal method of posting diatribes of verbal dhiareah in an attempt to wear the other person down but I have nothing else to hear from you on this subject so carry on with the twaddle as I am just not interested in it.
		
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I think you miss a very important point in the grants process. Depending on the financial size of the application, it is the national govt that agrees the need to apply for the grant. The EU then agrees to fund half of it, in the UK example. 17 of the CAPEX EU grants to Liverpool were supported by an application from govt level.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



*You seem ignorant on the way EU grants work.*  People dont get a sudden huge bung of cash out the blue from the EU  because they think it might come on handy in a local area.  The local authorities have to make up plans and apply for funding, if approved they get around 50% of the funding.  The 50% from the EU is (as i have explained)our own money anyhow, so we pay for all of it.

Regarding your comments on Posters ruining the thread then by all means point your finger at me if it comforts you but I think its more due to the fact you have a need to portray yourself as some kind of saintimonious arbitration service while in fact thats so ironic its side splitting.

You will no doubt continue your normal method of posting diatribes of verbal dhiareah in an attempt to wear the other person down but I have nothing else to hear from you on this subject so carry on with the twaddle as I am just not interested in it.
		
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So do you, we got a 10K grant at the Golf Club for our new Simulator/Training room from the EU, our Local Authority wanted nothing to do with it.

We applied directly to the EU, the only indirect sort of help we got from the Local Authority was their letter rejecting our bid, which we then used as part of our case for an EU Grant.


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## Kellfire (Feb 1, 2020)

drdel said:



Liverpoolphil said:
*Right now the UK still need to abide by E.U. laws etc without having a say in them*

Yup you're right but one of the issues I have with the EU is that it is the unelected crowd in Brussels who decide on the 'Law(s)' to be brought forward for 'rubber'stamping by the elected Parliament members who may have a veto but little else. I'd guess that bringing a 'new' law, that's not already in-train, would take more that the remaining period of our membership.
		
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I’d be very interested to know which laws in particular the EU have stopped the UK from implementing that you think would have benefitted us. Please, share?


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

If we're going to go down the route of who gives what where... the numbers for 2018, 2019 aren't available yet, are £15.8bn contributed. £5.6bn given back in direct and indirect grants - for clarity, direct grants do not receive 50% local funding and are wholly EU subsidised. Over and above that there is the rebate, leaving a net contribution to the EU of just over £4bn.

If the UK govt honours its pledge to continue the funding till the end off... can't remember or ar5sed... the UK will save £4bn... flippin' wow.

Anyone who wants to split the hairs over £4bn, crack on. In reality, its peanuts in terms of the national economy and not worth the effort.


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## drdel (Feb 1, 2020)

It might be  worth remembering the UK joined the ERM but it screwed us and we left. Just as well..


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think you miss a very important point in the grants process. Depending on the financial size of the application, it is the national govt that agrees the need to apply for the grant. The EU then agrees to fund half of it, in the UK example. 17 of the CAPEX EU grants to Liverpool were supported by an application from govt level.
		
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When I said the Authorities it may well be the government that makes the application but the requirement would come from the local/regional authority.


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## Stuart_C (Feb 1, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			I know nothing of Liverpool 1973-2003, but it was a very different city by 2009. *When I arrived it felt neglected and left behind*. In 2009 it was an amazing place for a city break.

I will say right now, other than the name "capital of culture" I know nothing about who funded the change and I could not use it in any argument for or against the EU.
		
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Absolutely spot on. 

The majority of the money came from EUgrants and investment.  

IIRC for every £1 Liverpool puts in, we get back £6 from EU. not no more.


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## robinthehood (Feb 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If we're going to go down the route of who gives what where... the numbers for 2018, 2019 aren't available yet, are £15.8bn contributed. £5.6bn given back in direct and indirect grants - for clarity, direct grants do not receive 50% local funding and are wholly EU subsidised. Over and above that there is the rebate, leaving a net contribution to the EU of just over £4bn.

If the UK govt honours its pledge to continue the funding till the end off... can't remember or ar5sed... the UK will save £4bn... flippin' wow.

Anyone who wants to split the hairs over £4bn, crack on. In reality, its peanuts in terms of the national economy and not worth the effort.
		
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No it's 350 million a week,  every week all going to the NHs


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So do you, we got a 10K grant at the Golf Club for our new Simulator/Training room from the EU, our Local Authority wanted nothing to do with it.

We applied directly to the EU, the only indirect sort of help we got from the Local Authority was their letter rejecting our bid, which we then used as part of our case for an EU Grant.
		
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I'm reffering to regional development grants not a golf club simulator.


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## Stuart_C (Feb 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			But the UK joined the EU in 1973... I lived within commuting distance to Liverpool through the 70's. Though anecdotal I well remember the strikes at Vauxhall and the docks. A huge amount of the managed decline was 'led' by the unions. Businesses closed because the canker of extreme unionism spread. The govr didn't run those businesses, they were privately owned. Are successive govts to blame for their demise?

Seriously, the "docker's tanner" was a huge joke around that time. I also remember, vaguely, Sir Geoffrey Howe's comments, he was in Thatcher's Cabinet, that Liverpool should be left to sink. *Hesletine and Thatcher ripped him a new one.*

I'd seriously argue that there is a reality gap between the stories handed down on grandma's knee about what the Tories did to Liverpool and what reality actually is. Yes, Tory govts have always looked after Tory constituencies but, equally, I can remember Blair winning Sedgefield in the NE and the difference that made.
		
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“Managed decline” was the words used.


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## Kellfire (Feb 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			It might be  worth remembering the UK joined the ERM but it screwed us and we left. Just as well..
		
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Which laws though?


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			“Managed decline” was the words used.
		
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I know they were, and I know who used them. I was putting a different perspective on what is the truth. I don't doubt a lot of what went on was Tory led but, equally, reality is somewhere between what you believe and what is the Tory truth. By all means continue to believe your version, I don't have a problem with that at all, and I'll continue to believe something inbetween.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm reffering to regional development grants not a golf club simulator.
		
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Then you should of made that clear.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Then you should of made that clear.
		
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The discussion was around regional development, I thought you had noticed that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The discussion was around regional development, I thought you had noticed that.
		
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Phil never said regional development.


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## Stuart_C (Feb 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I know they were, and I know who used them. I was putting a different perspective on what is the truth. I don't doubt a lot of what went on was Tory led but, equally, reality is somewhere between what you believe and what is the Tory truth. By all means continue to believe your version, I don't have a problem with that at all, and I'll continue to believe something inbetween.
		
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I havent said you were wrong and/or what the truth is or isn’t. But what I will say is we would not have seen the same investment from a Tory Government  as we have seen in this city the last 30yrs.

I genuinely fear where we would be without the EU grants and other investment.

I’ve  also worked in Manchester for a long period of time whose communities also benefitted hugely from EU grants.


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## Hobbit (Feb 1, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I havent said you were wrong and/or what the truth is or isn’t. But what I will say is we would not have seen the same investment from a Tory Government  as we have seen in this city the last 30yrs.

I genuinely fear where we would be without the EU grants and other investment.

I’ve  also worked in Manchester for a long period of time whose communities also benefitted hugely from EU grants.
		
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I've seen little pixies running naked up Trafford Way.

Seriously Stu, rather than say what you've seen, Google Liverpool EU grants and Manchester EU grants. The evidence suggest its a lot closer than you think, and maybe more in favour of Liverpool. Personally, I'm not fussed either way, although I do hope Liverpool win the Premiership. 

And don't forget, CAPEX projects have to be applied for and approved by the national govt, not the local council.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Phil never said regional development. 

Click to expand...

I quote from his post
*
"Eu grants forced the UK into putting money into areas that previously they weren’t bothered about because they were outside the London financial hub areas -

why did these areas have to go down the line of EU grants - because their own government did nothing for them - areas under “managed decline” , areas left to rot with no investment from their own government - well now they need to fully fund all these projects that the EU grants covered - should be ok , plenty of money back in the coffers to go around the whole of the UK"*


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## Stuart_C (Feb 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



*I've seen little pixies running naked up Trafford Way.*

Seriously Stu, rather than say what you've seen, Google Liverpool EU grants and Manchester EU grants. The evidence suggest its a lot closer than you think, and maybe more in favour of Liverpool. Personally, I'm not fussed either way, although I do hope Liverpool win the Premiership.

And don't forget, CAPEX projects have to be applied for and approved by the national govt, not the local council.
		
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Any pics 😁


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## gmc40 (Feb 2, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			“Managed decline” was the words used.
		
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By Geoffrey Howe to Thatcher In the aftermath of the Toxteth riots in 1981. That was his proposal as he felt Liverpool was already declining and that investment wouldn’t help. She sent Michael Heseltine to the city and he had a different opinion. The regeneration of the Albert Dock area and the International Garden Festival followed and Heseltine was given the freedom of the city in 2012. 

Liverpool, like other Northern cities benefited greatly from EU investment, can’t see Boris and co replicating it now we’re out.


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## Dando (Feb 2, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			No it's 350 million a week,  every week all going to the NHs
		
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You’re pathetic


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## robinthehood (Feb 2, 2020)

Dando said:



			You’re pathetic
		
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😂🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣
I think you need help. It's not healthy following people about.


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## Slime (Feb 2, 2020)

The Brexiteer/Remainer divide just keeps getting wider and wider with no attempt from either side to close it.
If this thread is a snapshot of the nation as a whole, then God help us all!
So sad and such a shame.
The die has been cast and we have left the EU, for better or for worse ................... hopefully better.
Surely this is the time for everyone to pull together as one rather than carry on the stupid name calling that's been going on for the last few years ............................... or am I just being naive..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 2, 2020)

Slime said:



			The Brexiteer/Remainer divide just keeps getting wider and wider with no attempt from either side to close it.
If this thread is a snapshot of the nation as a whole, then God help us all!
So sad and such a shame.
The die has been cast and we have left the EU, for better or for worse ................... hopefully better.
Surely this is the time for everyone to pull together as one rather than carry on the stupid name calling that's been going on for the last few years ............................... or am I just being naive..
		
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Yes, you’re being naive, Brexit still has a way to go (a long way) before we see any real evidence of whether it’s a success or not.

The work starts now, those of us who voted Leave believe it’s the right thing to do and have faith that in time we’ll be proven correct.

Some who voted Remain have moved on and some never will, that’s their prerogative, some will hope it’s a disaster so we could look to rejoin the EU.

In any society after such an upheaval you will never get 100% of those involved pulling together, it’s not in the human nature.

So again, yes, you’re being naive, it would be good if you weren’t, but I think it’s just not realistic.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 2, 2020)

Slime said:



			The Brexiteer/Remainer divide just keeps getting wider and wider with no attempt from either side to close it.
*If this thread is a snapshot of the nation as a whole, then God help us all!*
So sad and such a shame.
The die has been cast and we have left the EU, for better or for worse ................... hopefully better.
Surely this is the time for everyone to pull together as one rather than carry on the stupid name calling that's been going on for the last few years ............................... or am I just being naive..
		
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Never a truer post typed in the history of this forum, I mean just think what the charts would be like, '_Highest new entry at number 2 this week for a new band called Marillion with Kayleigh. _a_nd still at number one for the 34th straight year it's Status Quo with Down Down' _

I doubt it will get much better as some remainers will still be sulking and some leavers still need to direct their anger somewhere now they can't blame the EU anymore.  But life will go on.


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## drdel (Feb 2, 2020)

^^^ It is not the 'Forum' or the thread's fault that some posters get a little wound up; what's wrong with a bit of emotion as long as its not abusive/illegal. The subject reflects what is going on around us and, for some, it is a big deal for others not so much.

I guess there's a wide variety of personal reasons posters vent their feeling and write so I don't see why a thread needs to be closed if those debating keep wishing to express a view and comment. Its a bit of time wasting, the majority of posts are interesting and amusing.

Reading the thread is not compulsory and neither is commentating on it.  'Live and let live' is a good maxim and that applies equally to the Forum and  Breixt and I do hope we don't fall in the 'fashionable' trap of looking for reasons to be offended.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			^^^ It is not the 'Forum' or the thread's fault that some posters get a little wound up; what's wrong with a bit of emotion as long as its not abusive/illegal. The subject reflects what is going on around us and, for some, it is a big deal for others not so much.

I guess there's a wide variety of personal reasons posters vent their feeling and write so I don't see why a thread needs to be closed if those debating keep wishing to express a view and comment. Its a bit of time wasting, the majority of posts are interesting and amusing.

Reading the thread is not compulsory and neither is commentating on it.  'Live and let live' is a good maxim and that applies equally to the Forum and  Breixt and I do hope we don't fall in the 'fashionable' trap of looking for reasons to be offended.
		
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Good Post.

As gets pointed out to those who get offended by reading this thread and then go on to insult other posters for their views: 'Its not compulsorily to read or be involved with, if it offends you then keep away'


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## Old Skier (Feb 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So do you, we got a 10K grant at the Golf Club for our new Simulator/Training room from the EU, our Local Authority wanted nothing to do with it.

We applied directly to the EU, the only indirect sort of help we got from the Local Authority was their letter rejecting our bid, which we then used as part of our case for an EU Grant.
		
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All EU grants are costed on a 50/50 basis, that 50/50 may not be cash and can be made up on some very crafty accounting methods.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			All EU grants are costed on a 50/50 basis, that 50/50 may not be cash and can be made up on some very crafty accounting methods.
		
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Which grants though? Apparently we’ve learnt there are different types. I don’t believe there is a “one type fits all” grant

I was heavily involved in applying for our grant (form filling, evidence production etc) and there was never a mention of 50/50, 20% was the maximum we could apply for and 20% we got.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Which grants though? Apparently we’ve learnt there are different types. I don’t believe there is a “one type fits all” grant

I was heavily involved in applying for our grant (form filling, evidence production etc) and there was never a mention of 50/50, 20% was the maximum we could apply for and 20% we got.
		
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There are indeed a number of different grants.  The point being made is that the EU don't give all the money and don't initiate it, the grant had to be applied for.  I know I keep harping on about this point but the UK as a net contributor paid for everything they received from the EU.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There are indeed a number of different grants.  The point being made is that the EU don't give all the money and don't initiate it, the grant had to be applied for.  I know I keep harping on about this point but the UK as a net contributor paid for everything they received from the EU.
		
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Yes we know what point you are making, the point others are asking is:
Will the money we are not contributing from next year be available for the same purposes, ie Will there be a scheme were, like the one we applied to, another Golf Club could apply that is run by the UK Government? (I don’t expect you to know the answer)

We/I understand it was literally our own money we were applying to the EU for, but using our case in point, there were no UK funds we either could apply for or were refused, the EU was a last resort.

Thousands upon thousands of UK money has been granted back to us via the EU, will there be anything in the future these communities/individuals etc can apply to.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes we know what point you are making, the point others are asking is:
Will the money we are not contributing from next year be available for the same purposes, ie Will there be a scheme were, like the one we applied to, another Golf Club could apply that is run by the UK Government? (I don’t expect you to know the answer)

We/I understand it was literally our own money we were applying to the EU for, but using our case in point, there were no UK funds we either could apply for or were refused, the EU was a last resort.

Thousands upon thousands of UK money has been granted back to us via the EU, will there be anything in the future these communities/individuals etc can apply to.
		
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I'm assuming that your golf club is a members club. If so, why is EU funding being used to provide equipment for a private members club? Is there a wider benefit to the community that makes it eligible for funding?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm assuming that your golf club is a members club. If so, why is EU funding being used to provide equipment for a private members club? *Is there a wider benefit to the community that makes it eligible for funding?*

Click to expand...

We qualified under the isolated communities and rural development rules.

We hold sessions for Community Groups, as in Dementia Homes, under privileged kids, OAP homes, Community Centres, over last 12 months we have introduced Golf to over 200 people, we also have to provide one local person with a 30hr Contract for a minimum of 3 years.

On the back of the simulator we also have now got the SafeGolf Accreditation from England Golf.

As JLO I have also used it as part of my business plan to give an introduction to kids of an evening over the winter months during the week. Over 80 local kids have either attended a 6 week (1hr per week) course or a 2 day (2hrs per day) “get into golf” course.

Hopefully that meets with your approval.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			We qualified under the isolated communities and rural development rules.

We hold sessions for Community Groups, as in Dementia Homes, under privileged kids, OAP homes, Community Centres, over last 12 months we have introduced Golf to over 200 people, we also have to provide one local person with a 30hr Contract for a minimum of 3 years.

On the back of the simulator we also have now got the SafeGolf Accreditation from England Golf.

As JLO I have also used it as part of my business plan to give an introduction to kids of an evening over the winter months during the week. Over 80 local kids have either attended a 6 week (1hr per week) course or a 2 day (2hrs per day) “get into golf” course.

Hopefully that meets with your approval.
		
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Cheers for the reply. I wasn't having a pop, I was interested in how the funding works and what was required to qualify.


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## Del_Boy (Feb 2, 2020)

So a load of fellas have got the hump that the UK give a load of cash to the EU who then decide if the cash can be spent in the UK with potentially further UK funding.  The fellas requesting this funding have no way of backing or voting out the people who decide this funding.

In the future if a UK government decides they don’t want to fund the projects that potentially the EU would have funded the Uk electorate at least every 5 years are able to kick out said government - but that is not good enough.  Is my understanding correct?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes we know what point you are making, the point others are asking is:
Will the money we are not contributing from next year be available for the same purposes, ie Will there be a scheme were, like the one we applied to, another Golf Club could apply that is run by the UK Government? (I don’t expect you to know the answer)

We/I understand it was literally our own money we were applying to the EU for, but using our case in point, there were no UK funds we either could apply for or were refused, the EU was a last resort.

Thousands upon thousands of UK money has been granted back to us via the EU, will there be anything in the future these communities/individuals etc can apply to.
		
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Thats a rather hypothetical question to ask me as I have no more idea than you.  I guess whether our government has money to pay to such grants depends on what we have left after paying the eye watering divorce bill and how much we are prepared to let the EU screw us further in trade agreements.  Lets hope Boris holds a good line and steers clear of tieing any free trade to us paying money for it.  I guess the Farmers will be looking for subsidies along with the car manufacturers and many other industries.  I am sure we will look after our own.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



*Thats a rather hypothetical question to ask me as I have no more idea than you.*  I guess whether our government has money to pay to such grants depends on what we have left after paying the eye watering divorce bill and how much we are prepared to let the EU screw us further in trade agreements.  Lets hope Boris holds a good line and steers clear of tieing any free trade to us paying money for it.  I guess the Farmers will be looking for subsidies along with the car manufacturers and many other industries.  I am sure we will look after our own.
		
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 Did you miss the bit were I stated “(I don’t expect you to know the answer)”

If some money isn’t found by successive governments for local initiatives etc, then I’d suggest it might add fuel to the fire for those who wanted to remain, regardless of whether any future governments could afford it.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



 Did you miss the bit were I stated “(I don’t expect you to know the answer)”

If some money isn’t found by successive governments for local initiatives etc, then I’d suggest it might add fuel to the fire for those who wanted to remain, regardless of whether any future governments could afford it.
		
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Who knows eh!    As I said its all hypothetical so we will have to wait and see.  I have faith that we will get through it and we dont have governments wanting to do the country down.  Onwards and upwards.

Oh! and just so you can continue with your perception I had better add a 🙄 as I didnt miss your point but was reinforcing it.


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## drdel (Feb 3, 2020)

I see that Barnier and Varadkar have demanded the UK accept the EU's rules and do not compete unfairly.

Why? If we can compete we should, it is so simplistic to assume ANY nation would willingly hamstring there would competitiveness. I rather like the fact the are worried.


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## Kellfire (Feb 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see that Barnier and Varadkar have demanded the UK accept the EU's rules and do not compete unfairly.

Why? If we can compete we should, it is so simplistic to assume ANY nation would willingly hamstring there would competitiveness. I rather like the fact the are worried.
		
Click to expand...

If your negotiating position is hoping to worry your partner then you’re clearly a terrible negotiator and should hand over the reigns to someone else.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			If your negotiating position is hoping to worry your partner then you’re clearly a terrible negotiator and should hand over the reigns to someone else.
		
Click to expand...

Who should the EU hand it to.


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## Kellfire (Feb 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Who should the EU hand it to.
		
Click to expand...

Shouldn’t matter as we’re going to get the easiest deal ever from our position of immense strength...


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## patricks148 (Feb 3, 2020)

talk on the radio today the Fishing ind is going to be sold down the river, that will please those who voted Tory in Aberdeenshire


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			talk on the radio today the Fishing ind is going to be sold down the river, that will please those who voted Tory in Aberdeenshire
		
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Good it's only talk then. If Scotland had its way we would be leaving it back in the hands of the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Shouldn’t matter as we’re going to get the easiest deal ever from our position of immense strength...
		
Click to expand...

If you say so


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## patricks148 (Feb 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Good it's only talk then. If Scotland had its way we would be leaving it back in the hands of the EU.
		
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#

whats that got to do with it, we have left, get our borders back etc, and the fishing ind told Brexit would be good for them, but could end up with no change yet have no say in what is decided


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## MegaSteve (Feb 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			#

whats that got to do with it, we have left, get our borders back etc, and the fishing ind told Brexit would be good for them, but could end up with no change yet have no say in what is decided
		
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As I said, a couple of days back, our fishing communities need to be a priority over looking after the "City" folk... Boris needs to start looking after his new 'mates' or come the next election it'll be the exit door for him...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			#

whats that got to do with it, we have left, get our borders back etc, and the fishing ind told Brexit would be good for them, but could end up with no change yet have no say in what is decided
		
Click to expand...

Another hypothetical post on the negotiations.  Could, would, maybe who bloody knows. Lets at least give our people a chance and see what goes up the flagpole, you never know we might salute it 😉


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## patricks148 (Feb 3, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			As I said, a couple of days back, our fishing communities need to be a priority over looking after the "City" folk... Boris needs to start looking after his new 'mates' or come the next election it'll be the exit door for him...
		
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Mmm lets see, who will Boris back Fishing or Banking???

London or a few regional fishing towns?


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## patricks148 (Feb 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Another hypothetical post on the negotiations.  Could, would, maybe who bloody knows. Lets at least give our people a chance and see what goes up the flagpole, you never know we might salute it 😉
		
Click to expand...

when did facts get in the way on this thread


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## Old Skier (Feb 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Mmm lets see, who will Boris back Fishing or Banking???

London or a few regional fishing towns?
		
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As fishing counts for .1% of our GDP you might be right but as the great British public have so little interest in what our fishermen catch so they have had to sell it to those living in the EU perhaps the great British public won't give a hoot - unfortunately.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Mmm lets see, who will Boris back Fishing or Banking???

London or a few regional fishing towns?
		
Click to expand...

Value of fish caught in the UK 2018, approx £989m
Value of banking to the UK 2018, approx £132bn

There is only one winner in that fight and if it is not banking then whoever makes that decision is not of sound mind. The fishing argument is largely historical and emotional. I absolutely am not throwing them to the wolves but the idea that the fishing fleet is suddenly going to boom is not realistic.


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## patricks148 (Feb 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			As fishing counts for .1% of our GDP you might be right but as the great British public have so little interest in what our fishermen catch so they have had to sell it to those living in the EU perhaps the great British public won't give a hoot - unfortunately.
		
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maybe at the moment but fishing has massive potential, if you see the size of some of the french and spanish vessels that land at Kinlochbervie to off load, could increase our Fishing 20 times what we do now... main reason Aberdeenshire voted tory


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## patricks148 (Feb 3, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Value of fish caught in the UK 2018, approx £989m
Value of banking to the UK 2018, approx £132bn

There is only one winner in that fight and if it is not banking then whoever makes that decision is not of sound mind. The fishing argument is largely historical and emotional. I absolutely am not throwing them to the wolves *but the idea that the fishing fleet is suddenly going to boom is not realistic*.
		
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why not the Q that not Brish boats have are massive, so that would all be taked up by UK boats, might not mtach what the city makes but isn't the whole point the rest of the UK voted Tory was the promis of some wealth spread elsewhere??

what the right thing and what they do might not be the same thing


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## drdel (Feb 3, 2020)

I note the EU plan a quick deal with the USA, ahead of that with the UK. Interesting that a deal with the USA where there has been no real alignment, FOM etc can be accomplished faster that one where there has been an history of 'alignment' for 4 decades.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 3, 2020)

A lot of fish caught by UK boats is sold into the EU. A good number of boats go into EU waters to catch. Quotas are sold to EU vessels. 

The industry is a complicated one.


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## Old Skier (Feb 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			why not the Q that not Brish boats have are massive, so that would all be taked up by UK boats, might not mtach what the city makes but isn't the whole point the rest of the UK voted Tory was the promis of some wealth spread elsewhere??

what the right thing and what they do might not be the same thing

Click to expand...

A lot of fishing fleet owners sold off their quotas to the larger EU fleets going for the quick buck rather than consideration for those they employ, they also realised that EU customers were up for paying more for the product than the British.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2020)

Many fishing towns on our coasts have been devastated since we joined the EU.  Their prosperity needs to be a priority in how we allocate our fishing quotas. No doubt we will allow some foreign boats to fish our waters but priority should be given to British Fisheries.


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## patricks148 (Feb 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			A lot of fishing fleet owners sold off their quotas to the larger EU fleets going for the quick buck rather than consideration for those they employ, they also realised that EU customers were up for paying more for the product than the British.
		
Click to expand...

but the quota won't mean anything after 2020, surley this should be a new begining... Britains future etc


Lord Tyrion said:



			A lot of fish caught by UK boats is sold into the EU. A good number of boats go into EU waters to catch. Quotas are sold to EU vessels.

The industry is a complicated one.
		
Click to expand...

not after 2020, we are out of CFP so UK waters revert to the UK .

I'd imagine most of what is caught is sold in Europe, with no Q where are they going to be buying it from if they can't catch it them theselves?


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## MegaSteve (Feb 3, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A lot of fish caught by UK boats is sold into the EU. A good number of boats go into EU waters to catch. Quotas are sold to EU vessels.

The industry is a complicated one.
		
Click to expand...


I believe it has only become "complicated" since interference from the Berks of Brussels...


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## patricks148 (Feb 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			I note the EU plan a quick deal with the USA, ahead of that with the UK. Interesting that a deal with the USA where there has been no real alignment, FOM etc can be accomplished faster that one where there has been an history of 'alignment' for 4 decades.
		
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when you say a quick deal, do you mean 6 years rather than 7??


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## MegaSteve (Feb 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			A lot of fishing fleet owners sold off their quotas to the larger EU fleets going for the quick buck rather than consideration for those they employ, they also realised that EU customers were up for paying more for the product than the British.
		
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Some priority needs to given to 'ordinary' man over 'big business' [the fleet owners]... 
The fishing industry would be a good place to start...


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2020)

Johnson spends £5M for Scots to Boooooooo him in Cinemas 
https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...ref=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


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## robinthehood (Feb 3, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			As I said, a couple of days back, our fishing communities need to be a priority over looking after the "City" folk... Boris needs to start looking after his new 'mates' or come the next election it'll be the exit door for him...
		
Click to expand...

Fishing communities voted overwhelmingly in favour of brexit,  so it's not unreasonable for them to expect something in return. Sadly there is a misguided belief that the EU is responsible for there issues.
People see quotas  EU etc and start frothing at the mouth


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## MegaSteve (Feb 3, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Fishing communities voted overwhelmingly in favour of brexit,  so it's not unreasonable for them to expect something in return. Sadly there is a misguided belief that the EU is responsible for there issues.
People see quotas  EU etc and start frothing at the mouth
		
Click to expand...

The 'political classes' need to start prioritising the 'ordinary man' over 'big business' [The City]... If you haven't seen it already check out Ed Balls in Euroland... Folk all across Europe a pretty fed up with bureaucracy/Brussels... If you really want more populist governance then continue ignoring the message from 'ordinary man'...


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## Old Skier (Feb 3, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			but the quota won't mean anything after 2020, surley this should be a new begining... Britains future etc
		
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Quotas won't but someone will have to rebuild the fishing fleet first.


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## Mudball (Feb 3, 2020)

So a quick question for the Leavers ?  

Why do you think UK will be better off without the EU but at the same time think Scotland would be worse off outside the UK?  

PS: I dont have a position on either (before you try to roast me for asking logical questions)


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## drdel (Feb 3, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So a quick question for the Leavers ?

Why do you think *UK will be better off* without the EU but at the same time think *Scotland would be worse off* outside the UK?

PS: I don't have a position on either (before you try to roast me for asking logical questions)
		
Click to expand...

Weird question as the two scenarios are not mutually dependent...

Because the UK has the capacity to maintain a stable economy without an increasing dependence on debt and is better off without the drag on international trade/finance caused by the EU and the waste caused by the undemocratic 'centre'. The EU's debt is rising at a quicker rate than it's growth, yet the 'centre's budget has planned increase well ahead of growth. the EU's aim is for more Federalism (bigger Brussels means higher contributions) that would see UK taking a bigger share of their past debt because of our growing GDP. - Read the new strategic plans written by Ms von da Leyen.

Scotland's independence would be a disaster. Scotland has a very high level of debt (one of highest in Europe and rising) despite the higher per capita income from the rUK. An independent Scotland would need a subsidy from the EU but its debt is too high to qualify for entry The vast majority of trade is with rUK.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 3, 2020)

If Trump gets re-elected this coming November, I would invite Scotland to form a new nation with *NEW* England and perhaps Canada.
Maybe we could get Iceland and Greenland to join to get some kind of continuity on the maps.

I would happily pay higher petrol prices and give up my firearms (which are in storage anyway) to get away from that despicable orange troglodyte.
I do draw the line at haggis, however.  How about lasagna, braciole, and chianti as our official national meal?


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## Foxholer (Feb 3, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			As I said, a couple of days back, our fishing communities need to be a priority over looking after the "City" folk...
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this part! I'm dubious about whether the action taken will be particularly effective/enough though!


MegaSteve said:



			... Boris needs to start looking after his new 'mates' or come the next election it'll be the exit door for him...
		
Click to expand...

Next election scheduled for 5 years from 'now'! That's a helluva long time in politics - in spite of (or, indeed, demonstrated by!) the Tories ability to blame Labour for the effects of the global banking meltdown!


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 3, 2020)

Are your Liberal Democrats a spinoff movement from the Labour Party or did they arise independently?

Our Democratic Party looks ripe for such a division.
There are now two very distinct wings, the progressive liberals (possibly similar to European Social Democrats) and the "moderates," "moderate" being a more polite term for "Republican-Lite."


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## Old Skier (Feb 3, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Are your Liberal Democrats a spinoff movement from the Labour Party or did they arise independently?

Our Democratic Party looks ripe for such a division.
There are now two very distinct wings, the progressive liberals (possibly similar to European Social Democrats) and the "moderates," "moderate" being a more polite term for "Republican-Lite."
		
Click to expand...

Over the last few years they have become a mishmash of those than cant make it in their own party" When they where true Liberals they once had a chance but for ease have a read

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats_(UK)


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## Mudball (Feb 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			Weird question as the two scenarios are not mutually dependent...

Because the UK has the capacity to maintain a stable economy without an increasing dependence on debt and is better off without the drag on international trade/finance caused by the EU and the waste caused by the undemocratic 'centre'. The EU's debt is rising at a quicker rate than it's growth, yet the 'centre's budget has planned increase well ahead of growth. the EU's aim is for more Federalism (bigger Brussels means higher contributions) that would see UK taking a bigger share of their past debt because of our growing GDP. - Read the new strategic plans written by Ms von da Leyen.

Scotland's independence would be a disaster. Scotland has a very high level of debt (one of highest in Europe and rising) despite the higher per capita income from the rUK. An independent Scotland would need a subsidy from the EU but its debt is too high to qualify for entry The vast majority of trade is with rUK.
		
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I get your first point... but why do you want to act as a grown up to Scotland.. let them forge their destiny. They can sell dram, golf tourism, North Sea oil, ship building, university to the world.   If they are such a drain, don’t you think they should drain the EU rather than get subsidy from rUK/Westminster.  In BoJos words, we will have a glorious future ahead of us (without Scotland or EU - both of which receive money from this world class country)


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 3, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I get your first point... but why do you want to act as a grown up to Scotland.. let them forge their destiny. They can sell dram, golf tourism, North Sea oil, ship building, university to the world.   If they are such a drain, don’t you think they should drain the EU rather than get subsidy from rUK/Westminster.  In BoJos words, we will have a glorious future ahead of us (without Scotland or EU - both of which receive money from this world class country)
		
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Did Johnson really say that last sentence, if so which country was he referring to.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Did Johnson really say that last sentence, if so which country was he referring to.

Click to expand...

Boris didn't speak in brackets.


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## Leftie (Feb 3, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So a quick question for the Leavers ?
		
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And this is a perfect example of how some are still trying to perpetuate the divide.

We are all "Leavers" now.  Get used to it. Whatever the future holds must be better than becoming a milked colony of the EU (actually a bit like how Britain developed it's Empire I suppose - and look what happened to that). 

Tony Abbot (former Australian PM) said tonight "Britain is a country that has led the world and it has certainly saved Europe in the past and I think what's happened is a beacon of light and hope to people everywhere."  Are we going to save Europe yet again?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2020)

Leftie said:



			And this is a perfect example of how some are still trying to perpetuate the divide.

We are all "Leavers" now.  Get used to it. Whatever the future holds must be better than becoming a milked colony of the EU (actually a bit like how Britain developed it's Empire I suppose - and look what happened to that).

Tony Abbot (former Australian PM) said tonight "Britain is a country that has led the world and it has certainly saved Europe in the past and I think what's happened is a beacon of light and hope to people everywhere."  Are we going to save Europe yet again?  

Click to expand...

Absolutely.
Ongoing Remainers are carrying out an act of masterbation, their efforts produce results of only self gratification. When I
look back at the disaster Parliament of 2019 and the actions of Bercow, Greeve, Hammond, May, Benn, Corbyn Et Al it seems
Iike we have cast off our cement slippers.


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## JamesR (Feb 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolutely.
Ongoing Remainers are carrying out an act of masterbation, their efforts produce results of only self gratification.
		
Click to expand...

Gotta love the irony of agreeing with Leftie’s post about perpetuating the divide between leave and remain, and then posting that 🤣


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Gotta love the irony of agreeing with Leftie’s post about perpetuating the divide between leave and remain, and then posting that 🤣
		
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Ive added a bit more to cheer you up,  my confirmation was to Tony Abbots comment.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 4, 2020)

Lost in translation ...perhaps
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...arting-words-to-uk/ar-BBZCJ43?ocid=spartandhp


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## drdel (Feb 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lost in translation ...perhaps
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...arting-words-to-uk/ar-BBZCJ43?ocid=spartandhp

Click to expand...

It is quite amazing how many, apparently educated, politicians from across the globe manage to not to fully read, miss-type or reckon they miss-spoke when subsequently challenged .


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Over the last few years they have become a mishmash of those than cant make it in their own party" When they where true Liberals they once had a chance but for ease have a read

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats_(UK)

Click to expand...

Thanks for the read.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 5, 2020)

Nice to see AN giving both barrels to the French MEP in his show tonight.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2020)

Michael Gove on trade checks - I thought...ah well...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51453189

A wry smile and gallic shrug as Frictionless trade morphs in front of our eyes into Friction & less trade


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 11, 2020)

Got notification that my “Boris got brexit done” fridge magnet has been dispatched. 
Available from Conservative party Facebook page £6.

Go on treat yourself.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 11, 2020)

We have been gone 10 days and it’s already falling apart......

https://www.ft.com/content/3545ac7c...OppJ4_phpMdniC1Rx9eGyxWrFKHUfO3XLSCuZjNP32UmM


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## harpo_72 (Feb 11, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			We have been gone 10 days and it’s already falling apart......

https://www.ft.com/content/3545ac7c...OppJ4_phpMdniC1Rx9eGyxWrFKHUfO3XLSCuZjNP32UmM

Click to expand...

Nah not paying for it !


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## Fade and Die (Feb 11, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Nah not paying for it !
		
Click to expand...

Ok I’ll give you the gist.....

Remember how a lot of people were saying we need them more than they need us? Turns out that wasn’t true!😂😂😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 11, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Ok I’ll give you the gist.....

Remember how a lot of people were saying we need them more than they need us? Turns out that wasn’t true!😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

We have been out ( but not fully out ) for ten days 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Got notification that my “Boris got brexit done” fridge magnet has been dispatched.
Available from Conservative party Facebook page £6.

Go on treat yourself.
		
Click to expand...

Thinking about it 🤔
Post a pic when you get it.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 11, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have been out ( but not fully out ) for ten days 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
		
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Your point?

And what relevance does it have to the article 

“
*EU faces acrimonious summit over budget dispute*
*Poor countries are demanding richer states pay more to close Brexit gap”*


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 11, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Your point?

And what relevance does it have to the article

“
*EU faces acrimonious summit over budget dispute*
*Poor countries are demanding richer states pay more to close Brexit gap”*

Click to expand...

The point is you are making statements Of apparent fact on the future of EU and us based on being out for ten days 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


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## JamesR (Feb 11, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Your point?

And what relevance does it have to the article

“
*EU faces acrimonious summit over budget dispute*
*Poor countries are demanding richer states pay more to close Brexit gap”*

Click to expand...

I give it a month before the whole EU collapses now that we’ve left


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I give it a month before the whole EU collapses now that we’ve left
		
Click to expand...

Does that include weekends?


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## JamesR (Feb 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Does that include weekends?
		
Click to expand...

Ah, I’d not factored weekends into my calculations ... 3 weeks 👍

Especially if we decide not to align our financial services rules with theirs!


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## Fade and Die (Feb 11, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The point is you are making statements Of apparent fact on the future of EU and us based on being out for ten days 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

What “Statements of apparent fact” do you mean Phil?...“been gone 10 days and it’s already falling apart.”? 

Really more of a throwaway line than a statement of fact.😉


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## Fade and Die (Feb 11, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I give it a month before the whole EU collapses now that we’ve left
		
Click to expand...


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## JamesR (Feb 11, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



View attachment 29164

Click to expand...

Isn’t that an annual thing in France?
Hardly due to the mighty British one man exodus!


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## harpo_72 (Feb 11, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Isn’t that an annual thing in France?
Hardly due to the mighty British one man exodus!
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think they are missing us at all 
But I am sure they are loving the HS2 fun and games, getting a bit blue on blue but Brunel was correct about wide gauge and increased stability for high speed. 
It’s what the majority wanted


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 12, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			What “Statements of apparent fact” do you mean Phil?...“been gone 10 days and it’s already falling apart.”?

Really more of a throwaway line than a statement of fact.😉
		
Click to expand...




Fade and Die said:



			Ok I’ll give you the gist.....

Remember how a lot of people were saying we need them more than they need us? *Turns out that wasn’t true!*😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

That statement of apparent fact 

How can you state what will be true or not after 10 days


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## Kellfire (Feb 12, 2020)

If the EU did somehow collapse because of Brexit, how would that in anyway prove anything but the fact that Brexit was a monument disaster? 

If the EU splits then how many trade deals do we need after that, many with tiny countries who will almost surely enter financial instability without their EU support. 

Think, people. Think.


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## Kellfire (Feb 12, 2020)

As times goes on it’s clear that what many people actually want is for people in the EU to suffer every bit as much as they want us to prosper. It’s actually scary how sociopathic these views are.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			As times goes on it’s clear that what many people actually want is for people in the EU to suffer every bit as much as they want us to prosper. It’s actually scary how sociopathic these views are.
		
Click to expand...

Certain people have a lot of anger and they need to unload it.  And now they can't blame the EU for interfering in our laws, economy, banana shapes etc etc it needs to be focused somewhere.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			As times goes on it’s clear that what many people actually want is for people in the EU to suffer every bit as much as they want us to prosper. It’s actually scary how sociopathic these views are.
		
Click to expand...

I think there are similar numbers of hardcore remainers who seem to revel in any bad news numbers that the UK releases as though it proves that we should have stayed in. Are they any different? You see what you want to see.


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## Kellfire (Feb 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think there are similar numbers of hardcore remainers who seem to revel in any bad news numbers that the UK releases as though it proves that we should have stayed in. Are they any different? You see what you want to see.
		
Click to expand...

I said before it all happened that sadly there’ll be an element of “Told you so” and I won’t pretend to be immune to it but I think there’s a small difference in that we brought this on ourselves so we deserve whatever we get. These other countries may suffer because of us.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I said before it all happened that sadly there’ll be an element of “Told you so” and I won’t pretend not to be immune to it but I think there’s a small difference in that we brought this on ourselves so we deserve whatever we get. These other countries may suffer because of us.
		
Click to expand...

I think many would argue that the EU brought Brexit on themselves as well. Had they given Cameron a little something when he went to see them then UKIP may have been fought off. Instead, they humiliated him, gave Farage a huge boost and he was pressured into a referendum. Each country in the EU is largely looking after themselves, they are not looking out for the greater good. Brexit was years in the making, it was not an overnight happening.  

People can play this game backwards and forwards but ultimately we are where we are. The finger pointing needs to end, we all need to have a factory reset


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## drdel (Feb 12, 2020)

The EU as a concept is fine but the fact that Brussels has miss-managed the finances and decreased the elected representative's powers is the core problem.  Member states are not happy at the 'centres' excessive budget rises:  Germany’s payments could increase from £13.5bn to £22.8bn, Netherlands and Austria contributions could almost double.

If you lived in any of these countries would you be happy, bearing in mind that the EU's NATO support is still below the agreed requirement !


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			The EU as a concept is fine but the fact that Brussels has miss-managed the finances and decreased the elected representative's powers is the core problem.  Member states are not happy at the 'centres' excessive budget rises:  Germany’s payments could increase from £13.5bn to £22.8bn, Netherlands and Austria contributions could almost double.

If you lived in any of these countries would you be happy, bearing in mind that the EU's NATO support is still below the agreed requirement !
		
Click to expand...

They are planning on more basket cases joining and that's not including Scotland.  Sorry Doon, couldn't resist 🤭


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Certain people have a lot of anger and they need to unload it.  And now they can't blame the EU for interfering in our laws, economy, banana shapes etc etc it needs to be focused somewhere.
		
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Where will you focus yours?


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## MegaSteve (Feb 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Certain people have a lot of anger and they need to unload it.  And now they can't blame the EU for interfering in our laws, economy, banana shapes etc etc it needs to be focused somewhere.
		
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Should make it easier to hold Westminster to account... Reduces their opportunities to deflect...


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## spongebob59 (Feb 12, 2020)




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## Jamesbrown (Feb 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Thinking about it 🤔
Post a pic when you get it.
		
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Going straight on the fridge at work along with the Great Yarmouth and Bognor Magnets. 

Taking bets on how long it’ll last before someone has a stroke and throws it in the bin.


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## Dando (Feb 13, 2020)

spongebob59 said:









Click to expand...

Makes you think why they didn’t want us to leave 🤔


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## drdel (Feb 13, 2020)

Dando said:



			Makes you think why they didn’t want us to leave 🤔
		
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Oh they want us to leave they just want to keep our money coming in and stop our chance of success.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Going straight on the fridge at work along with the Great Yarmouth and Bognor Magnets.

Taking bets on how long it’ll last before someone has a stroke and throws it in the bin.
		
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Like it quite a lot.


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## Kellfire (Feb 14, 2020)

Oh dear.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 14, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Oh dear. 

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Weird thing is nothing has changed yet at airports.  So I hate to see what he'll do once the transition period is over.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 14, 2020)

Is that a spoof account or is the bloke just stupid? It is the sort of post you would see in Viz letters pages.


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## 2blue (Feb 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Weird thing is nothing has changed yet at airports.  So I hate to see what he'll do once the transition period is over.
		
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We voted to GET PASSPORTS DONE!! so.....
All Johnny foreigners fault!! 🤪🤪


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## Kellfire (Feb 14, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is that a spoof account or is the bloke just stupid? It is the sort of post you would see in Viz letters pages.
		
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Go look at his account. He’s a horrible little specimen. Hates women too.


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## 2blue (Feb 14, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Go look at his account. He’s a horrible little specimen. Hates women too.
		
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No, no ....  he was happy not long ago.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 14, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Go look at his account. He’s a horrible little specimen. Hates women too.
		
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I think it would just depress me . We have a local town forum and it is full of the likes of him moaning about allsorts. Grim people.


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## 2blue (Feb 14, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think it would just depress me . We have a local town forum and it is full of the likes of him moaning about allsorts. Grim people.
		
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Oh...  I'd keep clear of Magpies  forums.🤣🤣


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Go look at his account. He’s a horrible little specimen. Hates women too.
		
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Bet hes a white middle class hetrosexial racist as well


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## Kellfire (Feb 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Bet hes a white middle class hetrosexial racist as well
		
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Certainly appears that way from his twitter feed.


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## Wolf (Feb 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Bet hes a white middle class hetrosexial racist as well
		
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Having just looked at the blokes twitter feed he certainly comes across exactly as that, though you forgot to add sexist knob. From the few posts I bothered to look at you can pretty much he based his vote on get foreigners out rather than anything else


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## patricks148 (Feb 14, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Oh dear. 

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i thought thats exactly what he voted for


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## Mudball (Feb 14, 2020)

Well we have the first victim.. Man City our of Europe ..


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## drdel (Feb 15, 2020)

On the one hand we have the PM's critics that complain he's taking too much control with his new Cabinet of people selected from those elected by UK citizens and that can be replaced by voters.

On the other hand (mostly) the same critics would be happily 'controlled' by bureaucrats  over which no one in the UK can influence their selection or demise.

Who'd be in politics?


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## Slime (Feb 15, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Well we have the first victim.. Man City our of Europe ..
		
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So, it's not all bad.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			On the one hand we have the PM's critics that complain he's taking too much control with his new Cabinet of people selected from those elected by UK citizens and that can be replaced by voters.

*On the other hand (mostly) the same critics would be happily 'controlled' by bureaucrats  over which no one in the UK can influence their selection or demise.*

Who'd be in politics?
		
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Hey, I never said I was happy about Dominic Cummings either.... 

Works both ways, people are happy that we have got rid of 'unelected bureaucrats' supposedly impacting our every day lives but are fine with the current set up in which Cummings seems to have more of an more influence to the extent he can impact who is chancellor. As you say, who'd be in politics.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 15, 2020)




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## harpo_72 (Feb 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Hey, I never said I was happy about Dominic Cummings either.... 

Works both ways, people are happy that we have got rid of 'unelected bureaucrats' supposedly impacting our every day lives but are fine with the current set up in which Cummings seems to have more of an more influence to the extent he can impact who is chancellor. As you say, who'd be in politics.
		
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It does highlight a hypocrisy in the leave argument or another development that was not considered as it was a total unknown.
I think I would be a little disenchanted with it all but it’s early days


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 16, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			It does highlight a hypocrisy in the leave argument or another development that was not considered as it was a total unknown.
I think I would be a little disenchanted with it all but it’s early days
		
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I actually find Cummings a very interesting person and what he is doing is exactly aligned with his beliefs about causing disruption, shaking things up, an inefficient civil service and the need to be more innovative.  And it has been very cleverly framed to some voters as 'taking back control' from whatever foreign entity was supposedly holding us back. Where as we'll see in the next few weeks/months by his actions where he really thinks the blockers are, with a chancellor who occasionally questioned the PM possibly being one of them.


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## drdel (Feb 16, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			It does highlight a hypocrisy in the leave argument or another development that was not considered as it was a total unknown.
I think I would be a little disenchanted with it all but it’s early days
		
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I guess (depending on your viewpoint) we could have had a Momentum led Labour Cabinet.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			I guess (depending on your viewpoint) we could have had a Momentum led Labour Cabinet.
		
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Yep, true but that would have been voted for ....


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## Hobbit (Feb 16, 2020)

Plenty of people getting their knickers in a twist about Cummings, perhaps rightly so. Is he a better option than Seamus Milne I wonder?


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## harpo_72 (Feb 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Plenty of people getting their knickers in a twist about Cummings, perhaps rightly so. Is he a better option than Seamus Milne I wonder?
		
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I think he dropped a bollock when he had a go at a reporter.. nothing nice will be written about him and opinions will be influenced.. power of the media !


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## SocketRocket (Feb 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			I guess (depending on your viewpoint) we could have had a Momentum led Labour Cabinet.
		
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 Giving back control.


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## drdel (Feb 18, 2020)

I see Ms Barnier has been running off at the mouth to the press and ruling out a Canada style deal because the (a)UK might become too competitive and the (b) geographical closeness would be issue.
Well (a) is exactly what we need to do and operate with the RoW rather that a protectionist cartel. and (b) does he not know the UK has not moved for centuries - certainly since the EU was formed. I live in the hope we can see some professionalism emerge form these juvenile, grandstanding, twitter centric prats; but its a faint hope.


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